|| *Comments on the 1981 Warner W. Hodgdon 250:* View the most recent comment <#25> | Post a comment <#post> 1. RaceFanX posted: 05.19.2009 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Richard Petty's third and final Winston West win. All three were at Phoenix. Is it still Buschwacking if it's the West series? The Cup guys finished 1-2-3-4 in this race. 2. Mannoroth posted: 08.25.2016 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (5) Of course it's still the Buschwhacking. A Cup guys with some Cup experience or full-time Cup ride running in this race IS Buschwhacking. And I don't see any hate that a 7-time champ Petty along with his Cup buddies raced with weaker drivers and stole 3 wins in the West division. And when Kyle Busch makes just one tryout start in the East division, everything is wrong... classy. 3. Alex posted: 08.26.2016 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, it isn't, when the Winston West was a companion to the Winston Cup. It's like a driver racing in IMSA GTLM and WEC GTE-Pro in the same season: exact same specs. They didn't even have to modify the cars for this race. 4. Mannoroth posted: 08.26.2016 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (8) Here we go again - exemptions, exemptions... There were a companion races with Winston Cup drivers during the 1981 season. So why did Petty and others run this race after the season, when it's not a companion race? It wasn't necessary, but they still run it. Looks like even Petty was hungry for another win outside of Cup when his decline began. This race wasn't in the Cup schedule, so it's Buschwhacking. It doesn't matter they have the same cars, it's a different series. Xfinity cars are almost equal to Cup cars (except the horsepower) and everyone consider running those races as the Buschwhacking, running in different series for extra seat time, for fun or just for the win. 5. JSPorts posted: 08.26.2016 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Yeah, so just cause Petty did it doesn't make it right. However, he started only 19 non-Cup NASCAR races during his 34 full-time seasons (about 1 race every 2 years). Kyle Busch has started 16 already this season (on pace for 25), and has run 411 non-Cup NASCAR races in his 12 full-time Cup seasons (about 34 per year). I will never condone Buschwhacking, but it's easier to take when you see that driver once in a few years than every weekend. 6. Mannoroth posted: 08.26.2016 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) In K&N Pro Series case, Petty buschwhacked more than Kyle Busch. It sounds really weird, but it's true. 7. chevyfan98 posted: 08.26.2016 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) And if the Xfinity drivers were only allowed to earn points on even numbered race tracks, by winning on the fastest lap time and any cup driver in the race has to drive for TriStar Motorsports, meaning the chase consists entirely of left-handed drivers, all because Richard Petty raced in an ARCA West Convertible Truck Series race in the year 2000 BC, then Kyle Busch is the GOAT. 8. JSPorts posted: 08.26.2016 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This website says he ran 7 races in the K&N Pro Series West & 15 in the Convertible Series. 9. Blue Palaski posted: 08.26.2016 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Why are we arguing with this guy? He is so blinded by his love for Kyle Busch he will never admit when Kyle is at fault. Furthermore, he thinks all his opinions are superior to everyone else', never respects anyone's comments, and clogs up the system with the same lame argument over and over. Mannoroth, you are the reason there is the stereotype of Europeans thinking they are better than everyone else. 10. Alex posted: 08.26.2016 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) And, again, the Convertible Series was equivalent to Cup: same specs, but open tops. Again, it's comparing IMSA GTLM to WEC GTE-Pro. It's not Buschwhacking when it's companion professional tour. If it is, then Roy Smith is the Bogeyman for his 10th in the 1982 Daytona 500 because he was running a Winston Cup race in a Winston West car. *sarcasm drips* Can this guy actually provide a single fact to back himself up besides fallacious claims of drivers Busch-whacking when they didn't. Somebody get this guy a psychiastrist. He seems like the kind of person who's the drunk idiot that punches/stabs/murders people after sports events. 11. Mannoroth posted: 08.27.2016 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) It's no Buschwhacking when there is a companion race with Winston Cup drivers. However, it's a Buschwhacking when there is no companion race and this race at Phoenix is definitely not a companion race. They run it after season. I just wonder what type of comments people would created, if there were still a companion races with the same drivers that run in lower series races... Almost all of them would be just complaining they're not supposed to be there. Like usual... Don't make exemptions for Petty. He simply buschwhacked as well just like every champion in Cup, you just won't admit it. 12. Alex posted: 08.27.2016 - 8:06 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) But it's still NOT a lower tier. It's an equal series. Winston West was the EXACT SAME as Winston Cup except they ran different races. Same cars, same everything. It's not Buschwhacking to run your car in two races. IMSA GTLM is to FIA WEC as 1954-2002 Winston West is to Winston Cup. 13. Sean posted: 08.27.2016 - 2:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Answer me this, Alex. Was the IRL in 1996 a lower tier than CART? They were using the same equipment theoretically. I assume you would say it was because of the depth of competition. Davy Jones and Eliseo Salazar were on the front row at Indy and entered the CART race at Michigan in the same cars, and they were among the first drivers lapped. In the '90s at least, ARCA frequently used ex-Cup equipment. Would you say ARCA was a lower tier than Cup? I know I would. That is my argument for the Winston West not being as significant as the Winston Cup. I realize that Winston West was a direct descendant of the same day west coast races that exclusively west coast drivers like Lloyd Dane, Eddie Gray Danny Letner, and so on competed in, but at some point (long before 2002) it was not even close to being as prestigious as Cup, and for an obvious reason: because Cup has drivers from all across the country and Winston West did not. I mean even today, K&N East is considered substantially more prestigious than K&N West, explaining why for instance Dylan Kwasniewski switched to K&N East after winning the K&N West title instead of trying to go immediately to Nationwide or trucks from there. I was watching Cup in the late '90s, and I remember some crossovers from Mike Chase, Ernie Cope, Butch Gilliland, and the like, and even though the Sears Point and Phoenix races counted for both Winston Cup and Winston West points, they weren't even remotely competitive. At that point at least, Winston West was certainly a lesser series. Does anyone rate Kevin Harvick's Winston West title anything close to the value of his Cup title? I would hope not. Now this is not to besmirch drivers from the earlier period of Winston West when NASCAR in general didn't get much attention besides a handful of Cup races. In the period when Jack McCoy, Ray Elder, and Hershel McGriff were competing, you probably can make a legitimate case that it wasn't far off from Cup in terms of the depth of competition, because there was not big money in Cup so both series only had a handful of well-funded, big-money teams, Cup was much more regional in terms of its venues so it largely only drew drivers from the southeast and was not the national series it became in the '90s, so in the period when Cup and Winston West were both regional, I can understand viewing them as having similar competition (and it's pretty outrageous that McCoy and especially Elder weren't on the 50 Greatest Drivers list, and all three of those at least should be in the Hall of Fame easily). However, for you to extend this period to 2002 just because they used the same equipment is misguided to me, or else you would have to argue that IRL was as strong as CART in 1996, or that ARCA was as strong in Cup, just because they also used the same equipment at various times, and I don't think you would be willing to make those arguments. 14. Mannoroth posted: 08.28.2016 - 5:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Nice one, Sean. Take that, Alex. They may had the same equipment, but Winston West Series wasn't definitely equal to Winston Cup. 15. Alex posted: 08.28.2016 - 5:58 am Rate this comment: (1) (3) Mannoroth, nothing Sean said changes the fact that at this time it couldn't be called Busch-whacking. All "Take that, Alex." says is that you're a petulant child with psychological issues. ARCA used ex-Cup equipment only after it was phased out of Cup. They even slowed down the cars. I never said the competition was on the same level. Specs don't change the quality of the teams. All your post says is that dollars eventually rendered West teams uncompetitive in combo races by the 1990s, but it doesn't change the fact that they were competitive in earlier days. 16. Mannoroth posted: 08.28.2016 - 6:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wasn't regarding to the Buschwhacking, but equal series... 17. Sean posted: 08.28.2016 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My mistake. It appears we were likely using different definitions for the terms we were using. "But it's still NOT a lower tier. It's an equal series." If I were judging whether something was a higher or lower tier or whether two series were equal, it would be based on the depth of competition, not the compatibility of equipment. I can understand the argument that equality should be based on matching specs, but I do not agree. That doesn't mean I support Mannoroth's argument that Kyle Busch's wins should be counted towards some overall NASCAR win total and earlier drivers' wins shouldn't be counted though. Like I said, in the McCoy/Elder/McGriff days there was likely a very strong case that Winston West and Winston Cup had comparable depth of competition, but I really don't see the '90s Winston West stars who did not make it in the national series (and were nowhere near as dominant as McCoy/Elder/McGriff) in the same way. 18. rm posted: 11.04.2019 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Four of the Cup boys ran here at Phoenix as an encore for the 1981 season, having raced up at Riverside the week prior. And as predicted, they were the class of the field, with only Bill Schmitt surpassing any of them in qualifying, still over 2 mph off polesitter Neil Bonnett's fast lap. At the time, the West Series - ever one of the more, hmm, unique divisions in NASCAR - utilized a points system very similar to the "point per position" system in place today. So Roy Smith and Jim Robinson entered this race just 9 positions apart in the championship battle...and they finished 10 spots apart. Unfortunately for Robinson, he needed to be 10 spots ahead of Smith and not the other way around. Robinson was involved in a crash shortly before halfway while Smith coasted to a 6th-place finish. 19. zuel660 posted: 09.09.2020 - 9:23 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Curious as to what model car Bonnett was running here, as it says a Ford, but an old news clipping on Google says a Mercury, and I also remember seeing a pic in Stock Car Racing magazine back then of Neil in a Wood Brothers prepped car at Phoenix, which looked like it was a Ford badged (and perhaps powered) Camaro. 20. Kimi-theIce-Man posted: 01.01.2021 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny, Petty only has 4 NASCAR wins outside of cup in his entire career His first win in a convertible race at Columbia and the other 3 were at runnings of this very event. Kyle has over Petty's win total because he chooses to run lower division races. There weren't as many races worth racing at for him because of money. Kyle Busch just wants to win as many races as possible. I believe he is there to boost younger drivers and give them more competition (because face it the fields are thinning out) Petty is facing off in one of the few non cup races he does because it's there and use the same spec cars and expands the field out because it needs a decent field. 21. Spen posted: 01.01.2021 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Petty has at least one more non-Cup win: In 1961 he won a "NASCAR race" at Lincoln Speedway. I don't know what the story behind that one is, though. 22. possum posted: 01.01.2021 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @20 - you're close when you say "there weren't as many races because of money". It would be accurate to say "there weren't as many races because of time". For most of Petty's career, there weren't many non-Cup races he could race in, because they were held on the same day as a Cup race and he couldn't be in two places at once. Even Bobby Allison, a driver who liked to race as much as possible (even more so than Kyle Busch) has few non-Cup NASCAR starts, because the timing just couldn't work. 23. KW posted: 01.01.2021 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Lincoln race in 1961 was an "Eastern Late Model" race. The story is long, but from 1951-1959 NASCAR ran a "Short Track Late Model" series, generally for tracks shorter than 1/2 mile, but with the factories pulling out in 1957 the number of races started going down, there were more an more "sweepstakes" races for GN, Convertible and Short Track cars all at once and at the end of '59 NASCAR discontinued both Convertibles and the Short Track Division. Most short track's ended up with Grand National dates, but there weren't quite enough dates for all of them, so NASCAR formed the Eastern Late Model division, to mirror the Pacific Coast Late Model division (ARCA West now) so that more tracks could have dates. Stats are spotty by the NASCAR record books list points for 1960-2 and some race results are on the third turn. Sometime races were held on days between Grand National races and GN drivers ran them, including Richard Petty. 24. Spen posted: 01.02.2021 - 10:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) KW: Thank you! I thought maybe it was somehow related to the old short track division, but I didn't know they continued it in any form after the 50's. 25. Tarheel posted: 01.02.2021 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Richard 1st and Kyle 3rd, I don't know if they ever had a 1-2 finish in stock car racing. This may be the closest they ever came to it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: