|| *Comments on the 2011 Bashas' Supermarkets 200:* View the most recent comment <#94> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Neal posted: 02.26.2011 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (2) (4) What an absolute abortion of an event. Calling it a race would be an insult. 2. jlpmghrs posted: 02.26.2011 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least it was better than the truck race. 3. Anonymous posted: 02.26.2011 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) let's not take the accomplishment away from Kyle though. leading every lap in a Nascar race in it's Top 3 series is an extremely rare event and he should be applauded for such an achievement. leading every lap does not happen every year. it's only happened a couple times in the last 30 years. 4. Smokefan05 posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last time this happen was in 2003: Junior lead every lap at Daytona in a N'wide race. 5. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Excluding Road, Plate and Short tracks, I'm not sure why anybody on the planet would want to spend their money to attend a Nationwide race anymore, and if I were Nationwide Insurance I'd seriously consider dropping sponsorship of this series. Congrats to Kyle and the 18 team for the overall win and Reed Sorenson and Steve Turner for the Nationwide class victory, aswell as the points lead. Not much to say about the race itself, not only the quality (or therefore lack of) of racing but a short field, sponsorless cars everywhere, empty seats and a stupid call not to bring the caution out at the end. 6. 18fan posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reed Sorenson has finished in the top 5 in both races this year, the only driver to do so. As a result, he is the point leader. 7. Cooper posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess it was good news I missed this one? Gate to Wire. Congratulations Kyle. 8. potatosalad48 posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica Patrick after 2 races is 4th in points. Who would've thunk it? 9. CBASS posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, and people were complaining when they announced that they'd reconfigure the track. Anyways, awesome run by Kenny Wallace. He keeps this up and maybe he won't retire from fulltime racing just yet. Edwards really made a run for it 15 to go, but couldn't quite pull it off. He also seemed to use up his tires in the process. Some tire problems. Special K had badly blistered tires on the first caution, then hit the wall hard 50 laps later after one blew. The Daytona 500 champ was the top regular until he blew a tire, and Steve Wallace had a good run blown with a cut tire. Also, nice 14th place finish for top rookie Ryan Truex. 10. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol, it is a good thing Brad can't run for the NWide championship. Hopefully, now that the owner's title is a pipe dream, he will once and for all focus on Cup, you know, the Series that actually matters. Here is the funny stat of the year: Head to head NWide 2011 results: GoDaddy Girl 2 Brad K 0 I will now go to my local Discount Tire store and throw myself through the window like that old lady does with the tire in that commercial. Jeez, even the new car couldn't save this race. This Series is in trouble. Only 40 cars show up, 5 of which are S&Ps? Yikes. Granted it is a West Coast race, but still. 11. CBASS posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's tough to look at this series, which is bleeding from the gut, and then look at the Truck series, which is unusually strong. I guess that's what NASCAR gets for trying to introduce a new car in a bad economy. 12. beau posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this race was proof that cup drivers should never be allowed in a lower series. 13. RoushFan posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congratulations to Kyle Busch for winning the one of the most boring races I have ever seen... Oh and for leading every lap. Danica Patrick is 4th in points with finishes of 14th and 17th. This shows that there are way too many Cup guys in these races. 14. 00andJoe posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #4 - If they HAD brought out the caution, I'm sure people would be screaming that they shouldn't have, that they only did it in an attempt to "spice up" the race via GWC... I actually didn't think the race was that bad. ...now that I've been pelted with rotting fruit, I'll explain that dominance (except Jimmie's, of course) can be just as intriguing as "competitiveness". It was (at least for me) rather nervewracking, trying to see if Kyle really could pull off the wire-to-wire feat. I agree, though, that progressive banking will(?) be an improvement, just as long as they don't get rid of the dogleg! Aside from the Trevor Bayne Syndrome, we're seeing another Unintended Consequence of the new "pick a series" rule - there are significantly fewer Buschwhackers, it seems, which is letting the low number of "native" teams be exposed. (And I'm frankly astonished nobody rolled off a backup car to fill the field.) But short fields in BGN/NNS events are nothing new - see Pikes Peak back in the day for Exhibit A. The number of full-time, non-Cup teams has almost always been less than 43. 15. jensenators posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) if cup drivers werent in this series there would be 30 cars, 15 of which would start and park, and 10 more would crash out before halfway. hahahahaha. 16. 18fan posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After finishing 102 straight races in this series going into Daytona, Brad Keselowski has failed to finish both races this year. 17. Neal posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm to the point where I find myself hoping one of the interlopers gets injured in a Nationwide Series crash and ruins their shot at a Sprint Cup title; nothing too horribly serious, maybe a broken leg or collar bone. Since NASCAR doesn't have the balls to do anything about it, the injury scenario is the only thing that will bring the double and triple dipping to an end. 18. Eric posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Kyle Busch wins at least 19 more Nationwide series races this year. I am saying that because that will force Nascar to create more rules for the Nationwide series for cup drivers after this season. Having a cup driver do that The rule shouldn't be banning Kyle, but limit the amount of races a cup regular can do. I would like to see no owners points for Nationwide owners that have cup drivers on those rides, but it can't happen. It goes down to track owners and sponsors. Track owners feel the only way to put people in the stands is by having cup drivers in a nationwide series race. 19. Eric posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nascar is having a problem that could bite them in 4 to 6 years time in the cup series. There is a group of cup drivers right now that are anywhere from 39 to 44 years old at the end of the 2011 season and were in the chase last year. I am talking about Kenseth, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Greg Biffle and Jeff Burton. Nascar still has a younger group of drivers right now, but it could leave open desirable rides at that time in a 6 years time. When a driver hits mid 40's, you don't know if a driver will decline or not. The other thing to look at is drivers are capable of retiring from the cup series in their mid to late 40's such as Rusty Wallace. Rick Hendrick matter of fact signed 15 year old Chase Elliott to a driver development contract. Chase got that contract because he had been tearing up the late model series competition like having 13 wins in 40 races last year and around 37 top 10's. Rick signed him because he wanted to be prepared when Jeff Gordon decides to retire or only due a part time cup schedule. When Chase hits 18, he'll need experience in the Nationwide series. 20. Eric posted: 02.26.2011 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention that a driver like Chase Elliott doesn't need cup drivers in the Nationwide series every race because it would hurt a driver's development. For this race: good runs by Sorenson, Stenhouse, Allgaier, Scott and Kenny Wallace. 21. RaceFanX posted: 02.27.2011 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards ran second for all 200 laps. Everyone else was just running for 3rd. Nationwide points leader Landon Cassill couldn't get a ride for this race. 22. Patrick posted: 02.27.2011 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch leads from start to finish leading all 200 laps. one of the 3 races where I've seen a driver lead start to finish, '03 daytona 2nd race with Dale Jr and '90 at Lainer with eventual series champ Chuck Bown. congrats to JGR on another win and quite possibly figuring out this new car on non restrictor plate tracks 23. ESPN posted: 02.27.2011 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) WHAT AMAZING HISTORY. WE ALL WITNESSES KYLE BUSCH MAKE EVEN MORE HISTORY. IN 50 YEARS WE CAN ALL TELL OUR GRANDKIDS ABOUT HOW KYLE BUSCH LED ALL 200 LAPS IN A NATIONWIDE SERIES RACE AT PHOENIX IN 2011. AREN'T YOU ALL GLAD WE WITNESSED SUCH HISTORY???? DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA DANICA 24. 12345Dude posted: 02.27.2011 - 3:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have a question. Why does Brian France not get more heat? I mean this guy uhh. 1. Everyone said hey Brian the cup guys are dominating the nationwide series. What did he do? He changed it 6 years later. And a move that didn't do anything! 2. Hey Brian the nationwide schedule is now pretty much the same as the sprint cup schedule. I have been watching since 2002. But I looked at the 1999 nationwide schedule. How cool would it be to see these guys race all those unique tracks. It would give the series a identity! 3. Hey Brian these Nationwide COT cost so much. These small teams can't afford them. Why don't you pay for them for the smaller teams. Nope he decided to be cheap again. And look what happen a 40 car field! And it will get worse, the longer the season goes. Poor nationwide. Is spending all this money. Promoting the "young guys", and doing everything they can. And everyone is going to say oh it's the econimes fault blame the economy. No I will not. Number 4! 4. Hey Brian. You saw how the nationwide series, has been hurt by these cup guys. Don't let this happen to the truck series. Please don't. They have great racing there. With the new schedule, which is the same pretty much as the cup schedule. The 18 and 2 team can have cup guys in the cars for 20 of 25 races. He sure learned alot from the nationwide series. All they had to do was... A. Pay for the nationwide COT cars. B. Put a 15 race limit on cup guys in the nationwide series and 10 race limit in the truck series. Rant over. 25. Rusty posted: 02.27.2011 - 3:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR's new points system won't do anything but crown a champion who had a mediocre at best season. It's seriously possible the series champ goes winless and doesnt even end up with 20 top 10s. Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards and friends are STILL ruining the series even though they don't get points. NASCAR didn't fix the problem, they added one. I mean....it's such an easy solution. Give Cup drivers a race limit on lower level series depending on how much Cup experience they have. Unless they are like Elliott Sadler and out of a Cup ride. Cup drivers are still going to win all but one or two races this year. Maybe three if we're lucky, and we're gonna give the championship to a driver with a mediocre season and ruin the glory of a championship season. 26. Sandeep Banerjee posted: 02.27.2011 - 6:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know what sense of accomplishment Kyle gets from beating up on Nationwide drivers. It means absolutely nothing. 27. the MAN posted: 02.27.2011 - 6:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) thank god they are repaving this track. i slept through this entire race and didnt miss anything. the racing has sucked just about every race that i have watched at phoenix. and i thought after daytona that this was going to be a exciting season. 28. John Royal posted: 02.27.2011 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Make drivers choose one race per weekend :} 29. jabber1990 posted: 02.27.2011 - 7:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) dont limit drivers on what they can and cant do, I actually would love to see a driver win a Cup and a Nationwide title in the same year! 30. Damon posted: 02.27.2011 - 8:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sandeep, I feel the same about Kyle. If he put that much effort into the Cup side like he does the Nationwide side, he'd be a Cup champ by now. 31. Sandeep Banerjee posted: 02.27.2011 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Damon, I wish Joe Gibbs would realize that and atleast try to make Kyle run only Cup races for a full season to see if it improves his Cup performance. Johnson kicks his tail most of the time and he runs Cup only. 32. kinznk posted: 02.27.2011 - 10:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It has been said here that race sponsors want the cup guys in these NW races. I wonder how many fans truly care or could really tell the difference. I have been to two Sprint cup race weekends. I was told that Kyle Busch won the truck race and the NW race. I was there for both weekends but I don't think I ever saw Kyle Busch or Jimmy Johnson or a host of other guys. Once they strap in the car for all I know, except for the scanner, it could be Talon, Wily on Wheels, Cooper, and Bronco out there driving. When I go to other sporting events I see the players and can recognize them, even on the football field. As someone stated the series needs an identity. College football is a huge business, not because of the great talent but the potential talent (and the tradition, etc.). The best college teams would get their clock cleaned by the worst NFL team, but most fans can't see the difference. Less cup guys and it is interesting. 33. Bronco posted: 02.27.2011 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If he put that much effort into the Cup side like he does the Nationwide side, he'd be a Cup champ by now." Who says he puts any effort into Nationwide? The car is perfectly set up from the second that they unload it, so all he is to is practice it a bit, qualify and pick up a win on Saturday. This is Busch's first win with the new car in the sixth race with it, but the first time he led every lap in a race. Dale Earnhardt Jr was the last one to do that in the July Nationwide race of 2003. This also marks the first short field for the Nationwide cars since the Fontana weekend three years ago when only 42 cars started. It may just be me but I'm a little disappointed that Sadler and Almirola weren't running in the top 5, given the quality of their teams and their experience level. 34. Eric posted: 02.27.2011 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is starting to look familiar. Half the points is already one race out. By seasons end we'll have 3 drivers 400 points ahead of the field just like last year. Spray a pile of crap with perfume it's still a pile of crap. 35. Sean posted: 02.27.2011 - 12:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm to the point where I find myself hoping one of the interlopers gets injured in a Nationwide Series crash and ruins their shot at a Sprint Cup title; nothing too horribly serious, maybe a broken leg or collar bone." How would that even affect anything? Steve Park had the near-fatal injury that ended his relevant career in a Busch race. Park was probably one or two years from serious championship contention given how much he stepped it up after his 2000 Watkins Glen win (when he was suddenly out of nowhere a regular top ten contender afterward...) Ernie Irvan's career-ending wreck also happened in Busch practice (although I don't think Irvan was going to do anything after that since he wasn't really competitive after his return from his 1998 season-ending crash). If Park and Irvan didn't prevent Buschwhacking (in an era when Buschwhacking was considerably less than now), why would an injury do so now? More recently, Dario Franchitti's brief and ill-fated Cup career was basically ended by a Nationwide crash. It worked out for him as signing for Ganassi in Cup was arguably the best move because it allowed him the connection to land the ride with Ganassi's IndyCar team and remain relevant (rather than put out to pasture as Tony Kanaan is now thanks to staying with that black hole that is Andretti Autosport thanks to Marco and Danica...) Still, Busch crashes have now adversely affected three Cup careers (at least) and haven't caused anything to change, so I don't see how anything would change now... 36. RR posted: 02.27.2011 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I believe Irvan's 1994 wreck at Michigan(and that season he was a Cup title contender) was also in a Busch practice. 37. Damon posted: 02.27.2011 - 12:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I say that because he's STILL running as many races as he can in Trucks/Nationwide. Hamlin cut back on the other stuff and focused his effort on the 48 the last 2 years and what happened? Top 5 in points in 2009 and 2nd in points with the most wins in 2010, where was little Kyle at in the final points standings? 38. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.27.2011 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol @ post 23 "I don't know what sense of accomplishment Kyle gets from beating up on Nationwide drivers. It means absolutely nothing." I agree. I don't just chide Kyle for this (although he is the worst, insisting on running all companion NWide AND Truck races), I also chide Carl, Kevin, Joey, and especially my favorite driver, Brad. He is the double dipper whose Cup team has been suffering the most for it. Winning the NWide championship, or entering most of the races and winning a lot of them, while competing full time in the Cup Series means nothing. Years from now, nobody will remember anything they do in the lower Series, just that blue and silver #48 car winning that big silver trophy (aka the Cup Championship trophy) over and over again. For history on this, they need to look at NASCAR in the 90s. When people think of NASCAR in the 90s, do they think about that #60 Winn Dixie car dominating everything it ran on Saturdays? Nope. The first thought is of the black #3 car and the rainbow #24 car dominating the Winston Cup Series, and their drivers hoisting those giant wooden Winston Cup championship trophies. Then they think of multiple race wins by the black and gold #2 car, the red white and blue #6 car, the bright orange Texaco Star #28, the blue and red #88 car, and 4 in a row for that green #33 car. Cup is what matters. Although, I guess I have to give Kyle some credit. By piling up SO many lower Series wins, it takes some of the focus off the fact his Cup career has to be considered a bit of a disappointment when considering his talent and equipment. Yes he has 19 cup wins, and yes he is very young and has many years ahead of him. But when it comes to young drivers in great equipment, the standard is Jeff Gordon in the 90s. Kyle will turn 26 this year, his 7th season in Cup. Jeff turned 26 in 1997, his 5th season. When that season was over, he won his 2nd Winston Cup title (with a near miss in '96) with 4 Top 10 and 3 Top 5 points finishes and had 29 wins, a Daytona 500, a Brickyard 400, 2 Coke 600s, 2 All Star wins, and 3 Southern 500s. The dirty little secret of Kyle's career is how bad he is when the pressure is on. While Jeff thrived under pressure as a youngster, Kyle crumbles under it. He has never won a big race (unless you count his '08 Darlington victory), and has never even factored in the championship battle. He has ONE top 5 points finish (a 5th, well behind teammates JJ and Gordon) and 3 other Top 10s (two 10ths and a 7th). Another turd in his punchbowl is how bad he has been outperformed by his teammates. In his three years at HMS, he was badly outperformed by JJ and Gordon in terms of wins and points finishes, even during Gordon's disappointing '05 season. Let the record show that during his years there, HMS won 2 championships, 2 Daytona 500s, a Brickyard 400, 2 Coke 600s, and an All Star race. At Gibbs, he was clearly the Top Dog in '08 even with his epic cha$e collapse with 8 wins (Hamlin and Stewart combined for 2, 1 of which is very debatable). But in '09 he had another collapse over the summer leading to him missing the cha$e altogether, while Denny (a mental midget himself) matched him with 4 wins and finished Top 5 in points. Last year, Denny more than doubled Kyle's win total, and should have won the championship but he had an epic choke. So yeah, 19 wins in 6 seasons is pretty good. That is an average of more than 3 per season. But he has constantly been blown off the track by JJ (even in his high water 8 win season, he had just 1 more win than JJ), has never won a big race, and hasn't even sniffed the Cup. Yeah, during the JJ era, not many people have, but look at the list of people who have at least given JJ a run for his money: Matt Kenseth, Jeff Gordon, Carl Edwards, Mark Martin, Denny Hamlin, and Kevin Harvick. For his talent level and quality of equipment, he should have done better. Gordon did at the same age. And this "NASCAR win total" thing is about to make me go apeshit. 88 wins, only 19 are in Cup (22%). In the past they (SPEED, ESPN and DW) have talked about him passing or approaching legends in "NASCAR win total" such as Bobby Allison (87 total, 85 in Cup 97%), Darrell himself (97 total, 84 in Cup 87%), ironically Jeff Gordon (87 total, 82 in Cup 94%), Dale (97 total, 76 in Cup 78%) etc etc. Stop. Just stop. It's ridiculous. When he shows he can be consistently great in cup, I'll think of him among the sport's best ever. Until then, nope. 39. Anonymous posted: 02.27.2011 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reed Sorenson looks like he is becoming the favorite to win the title this year. Everyone has been talking about how Elliott Sadler was the favorite but I have heard little mention of Reed coming into the season. He only had 21 top 10s in 28 starts last year with Braun/Turner Motorsports and is also an experienced Cup guy out of a ride like Sadler. By the way, Turner Motorsports looked good yesterday with all four cars finishing in the top 11. That group could possibly steal a win or two away from the Cup guys this year. The switch to Chevy with some support from Hendrick appears to have been a good move for them. 40. Smokefan05 posted: 02.27.2011 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #24 BF isn't the only one hurting NASCAR dude, i suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself the same question. 41. Cooper posted: 02.27.2011 - 2:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No one has mentioned this but I will. Danica is 4th in the standings... She is actually finishing races and passing cars. That is basically all you have to do. I believe she is a good driver and I'm glad I wasn't one of the people on this site to throw her under the bus. I wish she would just switch to NASCAR already, but I think her heart and her contract lies within the Indycars for the rest of her career. BTW Brad extends his personal crash streak to 3 this season, and all of the three races have resulted in DNF's. C'mon Brad. 42. Cooper posted: 02.27.2011 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...Just read through the comments and a couple of people mentioned Danica in 4th. Good for her. As far as everyone complaing about the subpar entertainment of this series, I had already come to the fact that the point system thing wouldn't change anything before the season started. I still think my idea is better. All double duty drivers start at the rear. Simple. Allows the NW teams to run up front on TV and makes the race entertaining as the Cup drivers have to slice and dice through the field. 43. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.27.2011 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol, it is a good thing Brad can't run for the NWide championship. Hopefully, now that the owner's title is a pipe dream, he will once and for all focus on Cup, you know, the Series that actually matters. Here is the funny stat of the year: Head to head NWide 2011 results: GoDaddy Girl 2 Brad K 0" No kidding. He has no choice but to focus on Cup this year with him being uneligible for the Nationwide championship. This year there are no excuses because he's with a sponsor and car that has a history of winning, and a crew chief that proved his skills in the minor leagues. "Who says he puts any effort into Nationwide? The car is perfectly set up from the second that they unload it, so all he is to is practice it a bit, qualify and pick up a win on Saturday." Good point. To be honest with a lot of you, I don't think Kyle really has to put that much effort into his NW races seeing how far Gibbs is ahead of every other team in this series. Like you said, he pretty much just practices it, qualifies it and picks up a win most of the time. 44. Anonymous posted: 02.27.2011 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "has never won a big race" The Southern 500 isn't a big race? The Talladega 500? Those used to be "majors". Winning at Bristol isn't big? It sure as hell is tough. Same as Dover. How about sweeping the road courses? Both plate tracks, both road courses, multiple short track wins, multiple speedway wins, how many drivers these days hold multiple wins on every type of track the series races? But that argument is stupid to begin with. When you say he "hasn't won a big race" you're trying to make it seem as if he's unable to win a big race and never will in his career. Get back to me in 15 years and we'll start forming a rational opinion on just how good Kyle Busch is compared to the greats. Not every great driver is going to follow Jeff Gordon's exact career trajectory. And by the way, only idiots let the media's overhyping of a driver influence their own opinion of their talent. 45. Neal posted: 02.27.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper - She's fourth in points with 0 Wins, 0 Top 5s, 0 Top 10s, 1 lap led, 0 Lead Lap Finishes, an average start of 12th and an average finish of 15th. That says inifinitely more about the Cup dumbasses racing in Nationwide Races than it does about Danica's supposed talent. 46. TimmyH posted: 02.27.2011 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "how many drivers these days hold multiple wins on every type of track the series races?" Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart. Terry Labonte also, if he still counts. There are a few others that need 1 or 2 wins to accomplish the feat, like Jimmie Johnson, who has only a single road course win. So I guess that's a testament to Busch's versatility. I think you would be absolutely insane to bet against Kyle Busch winning more of the "big" races at some point in the rest of his career. Do you want to take that bet, DaleSrFanForever? I know you don't like the guy, but are you willing to sit there and say, "Kyle Busch will never win a big race in his career"? Or what about, "Kyle Busch will not win multiple big races* in his career"? And honestly, if you aren't willing to stake your name to either of those statements and back it up for the next 20 years, you should probably shut up. *Big Races = Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Coke 600, Southern 500, any other race DaleSrFan considers "big" solely because Busch hasn't won it and it helps prove his "point" 47. rw posted: 02.27.2011 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "this race was proof that cup drivers should never be allowed in a lower series." Well said! 48. Cooper posted: 02.27.2011 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica only has 15 races under her belt. Neal, I have seen alot of drivers be worse at that point of their career than Danica. I remember where Brad was after 15 NW races, and he was no where near the talent level he is at right now. 49. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.27.2011 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty @ Post #25 - This is a major concern that has developed for me as well. This championship is so wide open that Elliott Sadler is considered a contender. As a result, the Nationwide only drivers will scramble like apes over bananas. Landon Cassill couldn't get a ride for this race... deplorable. It is quite possible that the Nationwide Series champ will have a Kenseth 2003 style year. 50. 12345Dude posted: 02.27.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ''#24 BF isn't the only one hurting NASCAR dude, i suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself the same question.'' Just saying my thoughts. I'm not hurting nascar. I'm just a one fan. '' I still think my idea is better. All double duty drivers start at the rear. Simple. Allows the NW teams to run up front on TV and makes the race entertaining as the Cup drivers have to slice and dice through the field. '' I like that idea. And as much as I can't stand Carl Edwards killing this series, he has stated multiple times, that he would love nascar doing that. Maybe that is what they will try to do next. 51. Damon posted: 02.27.2011 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I don't there's any question she's making the switch at the end of this year. 52. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.27.2011 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow! My post proved prophetic with the race this afternoon and the morning comparison I made between Kyle and Jeff Gordon. Gordon ran Kyle down, bumped him, then nudged him out of the way with the money on the line. "The Southern 500 isn't a big race?" The only true Southern 500 is when it is held on Labor Day weekend during the daytime in the blistering heat and suffocating humidity of South Carolina in September. I attended a Southern 500 once (1998), and it was brutal just to be in the grandstands. But the one Darlington race is a big deal, and the win in 2008 is definitely the highlight of Kyle's career so far. Since it is such a historic track and that is its only date, it is a big deal. But not as big as the true Southern 500. Which I guess is unfair since Kyle never got to race in that. But my overall point still stands. "The Talladega 500? Those used to be "majors". Winning at Bristol isn't big? It sure as hell is tough. Same as Dover. How about sweeping the road courses? Both plate tracks, both road courses, multiple short track wins, multiple speedway wins, how many drivers these days hold multiple wins on every type of track the series races?" I never said he can't win tough races, he just has doesn't get the job done in the crown jewel events. For the record, at the same point in their careers, 2 races into the season in which they would turn 26, Jeff had won a Daytona 500, a Brickyard 400, a Coke 600, an All Star Race, and 2 Southern 500s. Compared to Kyle, Kyle leads him in road course wins, 2 to none (although Jeff was about to change that big time), and short track wins 6 to 5 (although Jeff had already won at Martinsville which Kyle hasn't and Wilkesboro which shut down when Kyle was 11). But Jeff had 3 plate wins to Kyle's 2. For the intermediates, Jeff had more (I could break them down, but that would be a real bitch). He also had 2 wins on flat 2.5 milers where Kyle has none. "Do you want to take that bet, DaleSrFanForever?" No, because I think he will win a big race eventually. My point is that, at the same age, Jeff had quite a few big wins where Kyle doesn't have any. "And honestly, if you aren't willing to stake your name to either of those statements and back it up for the next 20 years, you should probably shut up." When did I say "Kyle won't win a big race in the next 20 years"? Oh wait, I didn't. If you would pay attention, you would see I am comparing Kyle's CAREER TO THIS POINT, to Jeff's CAREER TO A CERTAIN POINT at the same age. So no, I will not shut up. You need to pay attention before you start typing. "because Busch hasn't won it and it helps prove his "point"" Hey buddy, I actually have been kind to Kyle to prove my "point". I am comparing them at the same AGE. The fact is Kyle has 2 extra years of experience and chances to win (more races) at this point in his career. I could make Kyle look REALLY bad and compare his first 6 seasons to Jeff's first 6 seasons. I'm just saying what happened through 1996, and what would happen in 1997. Imagine if I threw 1998 and the first two races of 1999 in there! That is another Winston Cup, another Daytona 500, another Brickyard 400, another Coke 600, another Southern 500, and 14 more wins. What are the chances that, by this time next year, Kyle has 43 wins, 3 Cup championships, 2 Daytona 500s, 2 Brickyard 400s, 3 Coke 600s, and 4 wins at the big Darlington race? Impossible. I helped Kyle. 53. Watto posted: 02.27.2011 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I remember where Brad was after 15 NW races, and he was no where near the talent level he is at right now." 15 races into his career, Brad was driving for KEITH COLEMAN RACING. It wasn't his talent level that was down, it was his cars. Keith Coleman Racing isn't even on the same level as Jay Robinson. When Brad was put in a JR Motorsports car, before they even got their Hendrick affiliation, he put it in the top 10 multiple times immediately and was always solid. Brad's talent level right out of the gate was worlds beyond where Danica is. 54. 18fan posted: 02.27.2011 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 19 wins in 6 seasons is where Davey Allison was when he died, except that he won the Daytona 500, the Coca-Cola 600, and two Winstons while Kyle has won none of those, although he's been a factor to win every Daytona 500 except his first one and 2010, has been a serious factor for the win the last three Coke 600s plus dominating in his rookie year before dropping a cylinder and had a great chance to win the last four All Star races but hasn't finished the deal. I think it is impossible to compare anybody's early Cup career to Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson because theirs are so unusually good. Somebody has to tell the media, especially ESPN, FOX, and SPEED, that Kyle's lower series wins mean nothing. I wish TNT had more races because their coverage is the best, which a couple years ago I never thought that was possible. 55. Cooper posted: 02.27.2011 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watto, First of all Brad raced stock cars his whole life, he was used to the handling of these cars. He didn't have to transfer from open wheel to stock cars every other month. Secondly here are Brad's results in his first 15 races with the #88... 14th,26th,10th,13th,7th,35th,38th,7th,36th,11th,9th,6th,21st,17th,16th Average Finish: 18th Not Exactly setting the world on fire. His average finish was 18th! Yet when Danica finishes 14th people shake their fists and grab their crosses like shes a witch. And yeah my favourite driver is Brad so I'm not being bias. How can people use 15 races as a sample size is beyond me. 15 races isn't even half a season. If people are making opinions and assumptions after 15 races they don't know what their talking about. C'mon Man. Oh yeah and shes outperforming her teammate Aric "I'm on my fourth chance" Almirola. 56. Steven posted: 02.28.2011 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 15 of the top 20 finishers were Nationwide regulars, so there is some hope that the focus could turn back on Nationwide drivers this year. It's not like the old days of 1 or 2 Nationwide guys in the top 15. 57. Talon64 posted: 02.28.2011 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle and Joey are only scheduled to run 20-25 races this year. If Carl and Brad bail on running the full schedule, Carl due to no sponsorship and Brad due to no shot at the owners title, then there's going to be some shots for the regulars to win. The reason Danica and Joe Nemechek are tied for 4th in points is because of how many of the favorites have had one good and one bad race to start the year; Allgaier, Bayne and Brian Scott for instance. And Almirola and Sadler have been kinda off the first two races which is pretty surprising. Ricky Stenhouse has really surprised me with his good start, although with a little more good luck Bayne would be right there with him in the top 3. Kyle Busch gets his 44th career Nationwide win, 4 back of Mark Martin for the all time series record. Good weekend for Dollar General with 2 cars in the top 5 in the Nationwide race and winning the Truck race with Kyle Busch. Reed Sorenson has back-to-back top 5 finishes, the 7th time in his NNS career he's done so. His career best was 4 in a row in his rookie season in 2005. Kenny Wallace gets his first top 10 since Iowa in 2009, and just the 2nd top ten for owner Robby Benton in 68 Nationwide starts since 2008; the other top 10 was Boris Said's Montreal win last season. 58. Talon64 posted: 02.28.2011 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) oh and Sorenson's #32 is 4th in the owners standings, one of only 2 teams to finish in the top five in the first 2 races (#33 KHI car). 59. 18fan posted: 02.28.2011 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The good news is that there were only six Buschwackers in this race. The bad news is that five of them finished in the top six. 60. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.28.2011 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "19 wins in 6 seasons is where Davey Allison was when he died" You are right. What would have been Davey's 50th birthday earlier in the week didn't get nearly enough press. He was the real deal. You have to remember, the first two years of his career he drove for the financially crumbling Harry Ranier team. He still won 4 races in those years which were his first in Winston Cup. Finally in 1989 Robert Yates bought the team. But stability was still slow in coming for the team. It wasn't until 1991 when they hired Larry Mac that Davey had a crew chief with real chemistry. In '89 and '90 he still managed to win another 4 races. Then in '91 and '92 with Larry handling the cars and Robert producing unparalelled horsepower he won 10 races over those two years (Earnhardt won 5). In '93 they were having a "down year", yet they had still won a race and were 3rd in points in the summer. Then he was taken from us. But considering the circumstances, those 19 wins are even more impressive. He was also very versatile. He won at Dega in the last race before restrictor plates (when his Dad nearly launched into the stands) when they were running 212 alone and God knows how fast in the draft. Somebody on the YouTube page of that race said it best: those were the "all balls, no bitches" days, and that is the truth (with the exception of Geoff Bodine). Then he won 4 races at Dega and Daytona (including the '92 500) once they put the plates on. He won 4 short track races (2 at Richmond, 1 at Bristol, and 1 at Wilkesboro with broken ribs), 2 races on high banked 1 milers (1 at Rockingham and 1 at Dover when they were both long ass 500 milers), 2 on the flat 1 miler at Phoenix, 2 on the 1.5 mile Charlotte track which doesn't count his back to back wins in The Winston, 3 at the 2 mile track in Michigan, and a road course win at Sears Point, controversy be damned. Also, Davey and Richard Petty are the only sons of NASCAR legends to peform at a legendary level themselves. 61. Cooper posted: 02.28.2011 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Davey Allison was one heck of a driver. Shame what happened. 62. Sean posted: 02.28.2011 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, Davey and Richard Petty are the only sons of NASCAR legends to perform at a legendary level themselves." Don't know if I'd say that. Dale Earnhardt? Dale Jarrett? Buddy Baker? I also think people underrate Davey's early equipment. Ranier had won every season from 1977-85 and even if they were struggling financially, the equipment was WAY more competitive than the kind of equipment G. Bodine, Irvan, Jarrett, R. Wallace, Martin, Gant, or Richmond debuted in. I say Davey started with the best equipment between Earnhardt and Gordon, considerably better than his contemporaries, and his stats are a little inflated compared to other non-champions like Bonnett, Richmond, Irvan, Gant, Bodine who drove total crap a lot of years as a result... I would take all those drivers over Davey, and I must be the only one... 63. 18fan posted: 02.28.2011 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going into Michigan in his last year, Davey was second in points, but got wrecked there by Rick Wilson, had mechanical problems at Daytona, and would've won at New Hampshire if it wasn't for Rusty Wallace's pit crew being unbeatable in '93 so I think he was about seventh when he was taken from us. 64. Watto posted: 03.01.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh yeah and shes outperforming her teammate Aric "I'm on my fourth chance" Almirola." She's not outperforming her teammate. She outfinished him by a couple at Daytona where the drivers hands are tied, then she finished 2 laps behind him at Phoenix a week later when the driver actually drives the car. Outperforming? Really? I don't think Danica is a witch, I'm not against her. In fact, I love women haha. I just hate RIDICULOUS comparisons and lies. When it comes to Brad, the 88 that Brad drove in 2007 was a car that had zero Hendrick affiliation. It was a stand alone Busch Series team with a fraction of what they have now. Yes, Brad had more stock car experience, but it surely wasn't his "whole life". Note how he put that car in the top 10 repeatedly with more competition. Danica has never, ever shown the potential that Brad had early on. The Nationwide series is in seriously bad shape right now. She finished 17th THREE LAPS DOWN. In historical context, if you finish 3 laps down at Phoenix, you're battling cars for 26th or 27th last year year and prior. Just look at the stats. The Nationwide COT has kept a lot of teams on the sidelines so she's gonna get better finishes than last year because of the disappearance of more competition. She's gonna get a little better, too. 65. Cooper posted: 03.01.2011 - 10:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watto, I understand what you're saying but if you are discrediting the competition that she is facing, then you have to go back all the way to the 70's when there was only 4 or 5 winnable cars. Are you going to take Richard Petty's wins away because there was 3 guys on the lead lap? No. You just take what the competition is giving you. Finishing 17th now means the same as finishing 17th last year etc. Aric Almirola has raced 35 Sprint Cup races, 41 Nationwide races and 75 Truck races. Over 150 "NASCAR" starts, is behind her in the standings, without a top ten and you don't think she's outperforming him. Dude got beat by Kenny freakin Wallace. I don't expect Danica to run Top 10 but Aric needs to be their on a regular basis. The problem is your expectations are way to high for Danica. She should be happy with a Top 15/20, and for the first time she's finishing races and not looking like a roadblock. 66. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.01.2011 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Earnhardt? Dale Jarrett? Buddy Baker?" Good points. Buddy, although a legendary personality and legendarily fun to watch drive, didn't really have legendary on track results, although his career could be classified as "great". He kept his foot down every lap of every race, but didn't quite temper it enough when necessary. Plus he lacked enough versatility to be legendary, all but two of his wins were on tracks 1.5 miles or more. He got a win at Nashville and a "Where The Hell Did That Come From?" win at tiny flat Martinsville. But he definitely had a flair for the big races. He has a few World 600s and other wins a Charlotte (always a big deal), a Southern 500 and other Darlington wins, and of course his famous 1980 Daytona 500 win in the bad ass "Gray Ghost" car, the first of many "monkey off my back" wins in that race including Darrell finally winning in 1989, Dale's immortal 1998 victory, and Trevor Bayne ending a long winless streak in that race in 2011. Just kidding. Dale is also an interesting case. Ralph is undoubtably a racing legend. Listen to the broadcasts from Dale's first 10 years. He is almost never mentioned in those years without the announcers mentioning Ralph. It wasn't until about 1987 when Dale reached legendary Winston Cup status that Ralph became "Dale's Dad" first and foremost in the minds of many, and unfairly. I don't count that, however, because he was a legendary dirt tracker and Sportsman runner. He never made his mark in the top Series, by choice because he wanted to stay close to his family. While Dale famously admitted that, once Kelley left home and went to college, he forgot what she looked like, and didn't even know his first son until he was 16 years old, Ralph actually made his kids a priority, something Dale didn't do until Taylor came along. Dale Jarrett, I should have mentioned. You are dead right about that. I didn't think about that because Ned's success came right before NASCAR really took off and he is, unfairly, though of more as an announcer. But the fact is he won 50 races and two Cup championships in a relatively short career, he retired young because racing was EXTREMELY unsafe back then (Earnhardt would have loved that era of driving in a T-Shirt with a little leather helmet, a simple lap belt, and no window net). Once DJ came along, Ned's career had been pretty much forgotten. Outside of his announcing, he was mostly known as "The Guy Who Won A Southern 500 By 14 Laps". But you are right, DJ should be on that list. I was clouded by the fact that Richard and Davey showed up while their fathers were not only still racing, but still winning. But that shouldn't matter. Ned is a NASCAR legend, and DJ posted legendary numbers. A championship, 30+ wins in a relatively short time, underrated versatility, and an undeniable ability in big races. He just got a late start, had to fight and claw his way up the latter, made the most when he finally got his shot, then RYR collapsed when he was pushing 50, leading to him having to finish his career in MWR's shitboxes. He retired right before Robert Kauffman showed up and bailed that company out. 67. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.01.2011 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points Sean, but I disagree with most of it. I'm not saying those Ranier cars were junk, but financial stability can have a bad effect on teams. The fact is, Davey raised the profile of that team to point that Robert Yates, the team manager and a VERY conservative person when it comes to money, realized he was sitting on a gold mine with Davey and went into debt to buy the team once Davey promised he would drive for him if he bought the team. That is saying something. As far as the drivers you mentioned: I certainly wouldn't take Bodine over Davey (and not just because I can't stand him). He was outperformed badly at Hendrick by teammates Tim Richmond in '86 and an aging Darrell in '88 and '89. He went to Junior Johnson and submitted two really mediocre seasons before Awesome Bill stepped in and damn near won the Winston Cup the next year. Harry Gant was really good, but not as good as Davey. Tim Richmond had the talent, but was still really inconsistent, and his lifestyle, even if he hadn't have got AIDS, would have held him back. Neil Bonnett was really good, but I don't think his celing was as high as Davey's. DJ, oddly enough, benefitted from Davey making RYR such a hot commodity and getting Ford to help them a lot. He is a fellow legend. Same for Rusty. Rusty is definitely a legend. Ernie is the interesting one. For a long time his style was win one week, crash in the next 3, then win again, then crash some more. But he was finally maturing behind the wheel when he took over Davey's car and did an outstanding job continuing what Davey was building with that team. I give Davey the edge over Ernie because he figured out the edge between driving hard and driving too hard a lot quicker. But their ceiling's were the same height. And let's not forget, Davey got noticed while driving part time in mid pack equipment with Hoss Ellington. He got a Top 10 finish at Talladega which put him on the map, leading to him filling in for an injured Neil Bonnett at Junior Johnson a year later at Dega and finishing in the Top 5. He just didn't have to struggle as long as most. With his name and undeniable talent, he got put in good stuff quickly. 68. Sean posted: 03.01.2011 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I was being mouthy without making specific arguments for those drivers, but here I shall: G. Bodine - You've convinced me I guess. He was too inconsistent to seriously consider at that level, but a lot of times I personally rank him higher because I strongly weight short tracks and road courses and he was much better on those tracks, and I also strongly weight drivers who drove in inferior equipment and I think after he left Junior Johnson at least his equipment was some of the worst a top driver ever succeeded in... But the comparison vs. his teammates convinces me. It's the same reason I argue Jeff Burton is overrated (because he was overshadowed by Martin the first half of his Roush career, Kenseth and Kurt the second half, and Harvick at RCR, although that last one's the most debatable). Irvan - I definitely think he was superior to Davey. He took a team that was total garbage in the #4 and made them borderline championship-caliber, while Davey did not improve much on the #28's past results (granted, he was replacing Cale Yarborough, but still he took an already-great team and arguably underachieved for it prior to 1991, while Irvan elevated a complete garbage team to near-greatness). Then, Irvan was much more consistent in the #28 until his 1994 wreck than Davey ever was. Also he was more versatile and better on short tracks and road courses. As for Irvan crashing too much, I think that was only in the #4 car and I think that's because he was trying to drive over the level of the Morgan-McClure equipment. He was consistently driving too hard and causing wrecks because he was trying to get results in that car it really wasn't capable of (yeah, I know Sterling Marlin finished higher in points in '95, but I think he built on what Irvan already did). I think that's why he stopped being a hothead when he entered the #28. He no longer needed to. I don't think Davey would have won a title if he hadn't died. I do think Irvan would have if he hadn't been injured in '94. Jarrett - I would probably rank him as the least of the drivers I listed despite his title because I think he got very lucky to land the #88 ride and Todd Parrott when he did and it was more a magical chemistry combined with a powerful long-term ride that none of the others I named had, although his #21 win and getting the #18 its first success is worth noting. I would certainly take Davey over him. I would still call him (and all these others) legends regardless. R. Wallace - Clearly second to Earnhardt from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s, in equipment that in my opinion was not much greater than what Davey had (and except for 1988-89 and 1993-94, usually worse. Much more versatile also. The same pretty much holds for Mark Martin. Gant - Can't agree on him. He finished one slot behind Davey in points in both of Davey's two great seasons, in FAR worse equipment. Yates was clearly not underfunded at the time, but the Leo Jackson team always was hurting for its entire history, Skoal sponsorship aside. The best possible argument against this is that Gant DID have Andy Petree but I think he got equivalent results in FAR worse equipment. I think he is badly underrated because I think he is the big-time winner who on average had the worst equipment. Richmond - Made a bigger splash his 1.25 years in great equipment than Davey did in any season, and was much more versatile. He might be the best Cup road racer ever and I don't think Davey can be argued as the best at any discipline, even in his era. Bonnett - My main argument for him is how bad some of the teams he won for were (especially the #75, although that was the year of the first Goodyear/Hoosier tire war when there were all sorts of strange winning teams as a result). I'll grant Bodine and Jarrett are worse, but I still think all the others are superior, mainly because they did what they did in weaker rides (and I don't think even if Ranier/Yates was underfunded, they were ever a weak ride, since Yates engines were the best in the business even when he was there). I forgot to mention Ricky Rudd whom I also would probably rate higher - no, he never came close to winning five races in a season but was more versatile and although he drove for many big name teams, he tended to drive for such teams in their weak periods (except for DiGard and Yates), limiting the number of cookie cutter/horsepower kind of wins he could have had, and MANY of Davey's wins were on horsepower tracks... Also I don't think Davey could have done as an owner-driver what Rudd did in the #10... I don't think the teams were weak because of Rudd, there was always something else - Childress, not a power yet; Bud Moore, beginning to become underfunded; Hendrick - being unable to adjust to the Chevrolet Lumina; Kenny Bernstein - total garbage team, Rudd as owner/driver - mostly a weak team but more consistent than any other owner-driver sans Kulwicki. Yates was his best chance but he was probably too old. That is my main argument against Davey - that he had far better horsepower than several contemporaries who did just as well (note that Mark Martin even took a used #28 engine at Atlanta in 1990 in his ill-fated title bid, which proves to me that Martin outperformed Davey in worse equipment that season). In 1991-92, he certainly drove to the level of his equipment, but I can't help thinking all other seasons he underachieved. Even if the team was underfunded (which I dispute; it was only the first few races of 1987 it was underfunded), I don't totally see what that has to do with raw horsepower necessarily. Even if the team was financially struggling, it still had Robert Yates building the engines when he was the best engine-builder, which means they probably had better stuff than a lot of richer teams. In Earnhardt's 1980 title season, Rod Osterlund's equipment was probably better than a lot of richer teams, while rich corporate playboys like Felix Sabates and Tim Beverley and Bobby Ginn greatly underachieved compared to the amount of money they poured into their teams. It's not that simple. I'm also not saying Davey couldn't have achieved in underfunded rides; I'm saying he didn't as much as most of the other drivers I listed. Maybe that's not fair since he never had to... What mainly annoys me (even if you think Davey is better than all these drivers) is that most of these drivers have been largely forgotten despite being fairly recent, while Davey and Alan are immortalized solely because they died in their prime. I don't know how many times I've read on various message boards that Davey and Alan and (especially) Tim Richmond are forgotten, which kind of disturbs me, because all three of them are remembered on the day they died on every NASCAR message board ever, every year. The drivers who are forgotten are those who had comparable stats like Irvan/Gant/Rudd but just quietly retired while not in their prime (even Bonnett, who also died, is completely forgotten compared to those three). Davey is so hyped by so many like the many people here who talk about him winning 50-100 races (which I don't see at all...I think his career would have ended up like Mark Martin's, 30-40 wins, a bunch of near-title misses and no titles since I don't think he would have matched Earnhardt or Gordon in consistency...that's nothing to sneeze at, of course, but the way he is hyped annoys me). I understand why people do this. Davey was more likable than several drivers I listed. But he was not going to put up Jeff Gordon numbers, as Earnhardt, Wallace, Martin, Kulwicki, and Elliott were clearly better from 1987-93 and I would add Gant and Irvan to that pile as well. I also think Yates wouldn't have gone to two teams when it did if Davey had lived, because he was a very conservative owner whom I don't think liked the idea of two teams much until they were trying to unsuccessfully land Earnhardt and settled for keeping Jarrett. Given that, I think Yates would have eventually faded like Morgan-McClure did and faster than it did fade, probably limiting Davey's potential wins even more. I like Davey a lot too, more than most champions. But when I hear people talking about him as a top-ten all-time talent, a definite champion, an 80-90 race winner, etc..., I don't see it. Kulwicki and Richmond are hyped too, but not as much, and I think they were both better as Richmond might be the best Cup road racer ever and Kulwicki beat Davey in far worse equipment... I think they live up to their hype. I don't think Davey does (mainly because of the level of his hype). But that definitely doesn't mean Davey sucks... 69. Sean posted: 03.01.2011 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The best parallels I have to draw with Davey are Buddy Baker and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (2000-2006). All three of them posted very similar stats, got into stronger rides faster due to their fathers' success, mostly dominated on superspeedways, etc... Looking at Davey's stats and Junior's stats in the first seven seasons, they are EERILY similar. Of course Davey was better than Junior, even then, as Junior's ride at DEI was obviously stronger given Michael Waltrip's plate wins, but if there is any kind of serious comparison to be made between Davey and Junior or Baker (and I think that there is, at least if you ignore Junior's underachievement since then). I mean God forbid, if Junior had died early in the 2005 season, before it became apparent he was descending into a world of suck, I'm pretty sure he would have been hyped as a 50-time winner, definite future champion, etc... See what I mean? Davey hype doesn't come close to Junior hype of course, but I think he is overhyped compared to his peers for many of the same reasons, and if Junior had died in the exact same point of his career (mid-2006 when he was pretty high in the points after having won one race at Richmond), he would be hyped the same way, when now it's clear that Junior did pretty much everything relevant in his career through 2006. Really, Davey's 6.5 seasons and Junior's first 6.5 are EERILY similar to me. Obviously Davey would have done better than Junior since... Anyway, I've dedicated more time to this than this deserves, cluttering up a thread this really has nothing to do with, but I think I've adequately explained now why I think Davey is overhyped, even if you don't agree. It's mainly because he is hyped over almost all of his contemporaries, even though I think several contemporaries were better. 70. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.01.2011 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever - Thanks for giving my favorite his due as a great second-generation driver. Ned Jarrett's driving career is mostly forgotten, I think because he retired young before the Winston era. Ned tore up the now-defunct dirt and short tracks in the Southeast, but his only "superspeedway" win was that Southern 500 by 14 laps. Interestingly, DJ was good on short tracks during his prime, but not as great as his father. If DJ had the kind of consistency in '97 as in '99, he would be a two time champion like his father. 71. RR posted: 03.01.2011 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You needn't worry about cluttering up this thread. The race was a snoozer, and the only topics which can really be discussed in relation to this race (Danica, Ky. Busch, the status of the Nationwide series) have been beaten to death. This discussion, on the other hand, is very interesting and pretty enlightening. Sean's made some really good points, including making a really strong case for Ernie Irvan. I guess I'll add my $.02. One of my pet peeves is hearing the statement "if [insert driver] would have [survived/drove in better equipment/had any talent], he would have won xx races and x championships. It's not so much the statements in and of themselves -- itâ??s hard not to â??what if,â??, and many of these statements are based in reason -- but the way theyâ??re made, as if they are truth. The thing about racing is that there are so many variables which effect outcomes, and thus results tend to be more fluid from season to season than in other sports. It's pretty damn hard to string together a half dozen great seasons in a row; Jimmie Johnson is the only fairly recent driver that I can think of that hasn't had an off year once he became competitive. And if Jimmie Johnson hadn't went to Jeff Gordon for sponsorship advice in 2000, I doubt very seriously we would have people saying "If Jimmie Johnson would have had a decent ride, he would have had 50 wins and 5 championships. To add to this point, consider two case studies, Jeff Burton and Terry Labonte. Let's assume that, for whatever reason, Jeff Burton's Cup career ended after the 2000 season. Looking at his stats, Burton was on a upward swing: by the end of the decade, he had at the very least challenged Mark Martin's supremacy within Roush Racing. In fact, Burton was arguably the favorite for the championship going in to 2001. In 2002 and after (2001 was a special circumstance, and I'll get to in in a minute), Roush Racing won two championships, finished second a couple of times, and had done pretty well in the wins column in the first half of the 00s. If Burton's career ended prematurely after 2000, one could reasonably say that Burton would have won quite a few more races, and perhaps won a Cup title. Even if he left after 2001, Burton greatly outperformed his teammates in a visibly down year for Roush as a whole, and one could still reasonably make the same argument . Now imagine Terry Labonte, again for the sake of argument, left racing after the 1993 season. While he had a championship and 10 wins to his name, he had only won more than one race in a season twice, hadnâ??t won a race in over four years, and had kinda underperformed with a Junior Johnson team which was still one of the top teams in Cup. I donâ??t think too many people would have predicted that Labonte would win a championship and almost doable his win total in 4 years. Even though Hendrick became a real power during those years, Labonte was in his late thirties at this point. Iâ??ve written way more than I wanted to, but I guess my main point is this: drivers whose careers early primes are only immortalized when their careers are perceived to be on the upswing. Allison was still relatively young, and had a top team behind him. Therefore, he is believed to have been a lock for a championship at some point. Kulwicki was almost 40, and was about to enter the era of multi-car mega teams and multimillion dollar sponsorships. I donâ??t hear so many people say that Kulwicki was a sure thing to win another championship. While it can be argued that Allison underperformed before 1991, it can also be argued that Allison had turned a corner after getting McReynolds as a crew chief. And from the beginning of 1991 until his death, Allison had more wins than any driver. (of course, Earnhardt and Wallace had tough 1992 campaigns) and his short track performances had noticeably improved in those years. Then again, Irvan stepped in and immediately became a championship contender. Iâ??ll stop here. I know I kinda went off topic, but this came to mind when I read these posts. 72. Spen posted: 03.01.2011 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean : I don't think that Morgan-McClure was "total garbage" when Irvan went there. *Rick Wilson* had a couple of near-wins in that car. Wilson sucked. I don't like to throw that word around, but he did. Not just Morgan-McClure, but every team he ever drove for was better with someone else. RahMoc Enterprises had finished in the top-15 in points, gotten double diget top tens, multible top fives, and over 100 lead laps with Morgan Sheperd (Hardly a hall of famer). Wilson got in the car, and aside from fifth at Bristol, accomplished nothing. Two other tenth place finishes, no lead laps, and outside the top twenty in points. Fellow winless driver Joe Ruttman took over the following year, for his first full season since '86, and managed to be an improvement. Then he went to the Stavola Brothers. They had a few top tens, a top five, and a top twenty points finish in '90 with Bobby Hillin, of all people. Wilson comes in, and what happens? Absoulutly nothing. No top tens, 26th in points, and really nothing good whatsover. David Stremme would have considered it an off year. Then in comes 50+ Dick Trickle, and suddenly they're getting 8 top tens, a couple top fives, and back in the top twenty (even running in the top ten early in the year). And if I *really* wanted to make him look bad, compare his '91 season to what Sterling Marlin did in that car just two years later. Then comes '93. Richard Petty, for reasons I will never understand, decides to hire Wilson as his replacement. He finished the year two posistions lower than Petty did in his final year. The following season, Wally Dallenbach ran better, when he qualifyed for the race anyway, and rookie open-wheel transplant John Andretti showed more signs of competitiveness. I will give Wilson points for winning the legends race, but aside from that, he really hasn't impressed me since 1982. The point of this lenthy side note, is that I believe that Morgan-McClure Motorsports was capable of getting a win or two, and contending for a top ten points finish in '88 and '89, but were held back by their driver. Irvan certainly was trying to go beyond what the team was capable of, though. MMM was a sixth to tenth place team, and he was trying to make it a winning car every week. That will get you into a lot of accidents. I personally don't attribute Marlin's third place points run so much to Irvan improving the team (if anything, they started going downhill before he left) as to Marlin taking the sixth place finish, instead of overpushing for more. There's more I'd like to discuss, but it's getting late. Maybe tomorrow. 73. Watto posted: 03.02.2011 - 5:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Aric Almirola has raced 35 Sprint Cup races, 41 Nationwide races and 75 Truck races. Over 150 "NASCAR" starts, is behind her in the standings, without a top ten and you don't think she's outperforming him. Dude got beat by Kenny freakin Wallace." Dude, we're two races into the season with one race being DAYTONA. It's not exactly shocking that people are gonna be higher in the points standings than they run. You're not gonna finish top 10 in them all. Aric is not exactly much of a Cup talent. Are you seriously telling me she's outperforming them based on outfinishing him at DAYTONA? That's absolutely ludicrous. No, Danica is not outperforming Aric, Aric lapped her twice at Phoenix and Phoenix is the only race we've run out of the two where the driver actually pushes the car to its limits. A lot of people got beat by Kenny Wallace. Kenny's driven for quite possibly worst full time team in the series for the past couple of years and he finally hopped in a more competitive car. Don't be surprised when Kenny beats a ton if good drivers this year, even though the 09 isn't a top tier Nationwide ride. Kenny was racing with the Gibbs #11 for most of the day, obviously he had speed. I'm not criticizing Danica, but I'm trying to straighten some comparisons that aren't fair. Is Paul Menard outperforming Jimmie Johnson in Cup? After all, he's ahead of Jimmie in Cup points... once again, because of Daytona. 74. Cooper posted: 03.02.2011 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's because Jimmie wrecked at Daytona. Aric was not involved in any wrecks and was simply slower than Danica. That's the only reason Paul is ahead of Jimmie. Not because of performance. At the very least, I'll admit they're running even. Danica beat him at Daytona, and Aric beat her at Phoenix. So if their even, that still gives Danica the edge because of experience. Oh yeah and if Danica had experience with the draft lock she could've easily ran Top 5 at Daytona considering she led a lap and was passing championship level cars, she just didn't know what to do. 75. tweek posted: 03.02.2011 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #15 owner Rick Ware 76. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.02.2011 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PR #71 Thank you! No truer statement found on these pages... "The thing about racing is that there are so many variables which effect outcomes, and thus results tend to be more fluid from season to season than in other sports." 77. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.02.2011 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yet, there is one recent exception to the "many variables in racing" rule: Jimmie Johnson Since about 2007, the #48 team has attempted to control all variables in the Chase. In other words, dot their i's and cross their t's for ten consecutive races. There was a few exceptions like missing the setup @ New Hampshire '10, JJ/Hornish crash Texas '09, underadjusting the car @ Texas '08 and having to pit for gas late in the race while running in the top-10 @ Charlotte '07. Chad's and Jimmie's ability to have clean races, even when they are down on horsepower like 2010 or evenly matched by Gordon in 2007, is what wins championships. By outlasting the competition, attempting to control variables in order to maximize outcomes and closing out races in the Chase, the #48 team's system has consistently upped the glass ceiling every year. 78. Watto posted: 03.02.2011 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At the very least, I'll admit they're running even. Danica beat him at Daytona, and Aric beat her at Phoenix. So if their even, that still gives Danica the edge because of experience." Daytona has nothing to do with driver's performance. I really shouldn't need to explain this. Daytona and Talladega take up 4 Cup races out of the year, and I *believe* 3 Nationwide races. They're crapshoot events. You ever notice that the Cup champion of the past 5 years usually has awful luck in them? It really has nothing to do with driver performance. Lapping someone twice at Phoenix says MUCH more about a driver than getting beat by a couple positions at Daytona. I'm not even an Aric Almirola fan. He's going to be ahead of Danica after this weekend, barring a mechanical failure or wreck. 79. Watto posted: 03.02.2011 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My apologies for being so brash, by the way. There's no need to continue to debate something so minor and rehash the same thoughts. If you disagree, you disagree. The stats will look more normal as we get through more races. 80. Cooper posted: 03.02.2011 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Numbers lie my friend. But I'm obviously alone when it comes to Danica. Everybody I talk to about Danica, they just shake their heads so I guess I'm the minority on this topic. 81. Watto posted: 03.02.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) She's had some races that have impressed me. And Phoenix this time went a LOT better than last time :) 82. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.02.2011 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points Sean. They really made me think. I respect your stance and the way you defended them. I can't argue with those points, even if I don't agree with some of them. One thing: I did underrate Gant. "I mean God forbid, if Junior had died early in the 2005 season, before it became apparent he was descending into a world of suck, I'm pretty sure he would have been hyped as a 50-time winner, definite future champion, etc" You are right. Hell, at the time I definitely thought he would reach those numbers and accomplishments because he had (and still has) the talent to do so. Would Davey have fallen into the same trap? I don't think so, but I can't prove it. "One of my pet peeves is hearing the statement "if [insert driver] would have [survived/drove in better equipment/had any talent], he would have won xx races and x championships. It's not so much the statements in and of themselves -- itâ??s hard not to â??what if,â??, and many of these statements are based in reason -- but the way theyâ??re made, as if they are truth. The thing about racing is that there are so many variables which effect outcomes, and thus results tend to be more fluid from season to season than in other sports." That is an excellent point. I don't know why, but I really get caught up in trying to project people's careers. I base Davey's projections on the upward swing RYR rode throughout the 90s. Especially '94, '96, '97, '99, and '01. Does Davey get a championship in 3 of those years? 4? 2? Who knows, but I think about it a lot when I probably shouldn't. "Thanks for giving my favorite his due as a great second-generation driver." Unfortunately I had to be reminded before giving him his proper due. I think both Dale and Ned have sort of slipped through the cracks of history, and it is unfair. They are known (rightfully so) for their gentlemanly off track behavior, and "clean just as long as you don't take advantage of me" on track style. But looking at both of their careers, they were great. Why doesn't DJ cutting a tire at Phoenix in '97, unlapping himself and coming back to the lead UNDER GREEN not get the same accolades as Bill's run at Talladega in '85? "Let's assume that, for whatever reason, Jeff Burton's Cup career ended after the 2000 season." Another excellent example. Who saw the 5 year swoon he experienced from 2001-2005? Even his "comeback" ('06 to present) hasn't touched some of his 90s Roush years. You are right, some things just cannot be predicted in racing. "It's the same reason I argue Jeff Burton is overrated (because he was overshadowed by Martin the first half of his Roush career, Kenseth and Kurt the second half, and Harvick at RCR, although that last one's the most debatable)." I agree. Jeff's most significant contributions have come outside the racecar. He is most responsible for getting everyone at RCR back on the same page after disasterous '04 and '05 seasons, Harvick sure as hell didn't. And his pushes for safety advancements made it easier for NASCAR to jump forward in that area following Dale's death. But as a driver? I agree. He is good, but not like some people make him to be. When you can't even supplant Harvick as RCR's Top Gun that is saying something. He is just too damn nice. And it has hurt him. Look at the '97 Southern 500. When Gordon threw that block, how many people back off? 83. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.02.2011 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By outlasting the competition, attempting to control variables in order to maximize outcomes and closing out races in the Chase, the #48 team's system has consistently upped the glass ceiling every year." That is true. But the thing is, they can usually also go fast while doing this. RCR has tried to do the exact same thing in their cha$e runs, but simply haven't been able to hang. They only sniffed the title last year when the 48 team was down on speed and the 11 car was choking. The fact they can go fast and still control those variables is amazing. Look at the 11 last year. they intentionally slowed down to avoid mistakes because they didn't trust themselves (and judging by Homestead, they shouldn't have trusted themselves). Same for RCR. They can't take the gloves off and hang with the 48. 84. 18fan posted: 03.03.2011 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) About Burton, he led more laps at Darlington in 1998 than he did in 2007-2009. He had a resurgence of sorts in terms of running up front last year, although a good number of his laps led came at the two Martinsville races, but he couldn't finish the deal, which has been a problem for him throughout his career. 85. irony posted: 03.03.2011 - 2:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Aric lapped her twice at Phoenix" He didn't, the leaders did. Aric got lucky a few times with the yellow and she didn't. She wasn't that far off Aric's pace and even out qualified him. 86. Watto posted: 03.03.2011 - 3:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My bad on the poor wording. Aric finished 2 laps ahead of her. The leaders lapped her 3x. 87. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.03.2011 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately I had to be reminded before giving him his proper due. I think both Dale and Ned have sort of slipped through the cracks of history, and it is unfair. They are known (rightfully so) for their gentlemanly off track behavior, and "clean just as long as you don't take advantage of me" on track style. But looking at both of their careers, they were great. Why doesn't DJ cutting a tire at Phoenix in '97, unlapping himself and coming back to the lead UNDER GREEN not get the same accolades as Bill's run at Talladega in '85?" Great points! Thank you DSF. Not to mention the advantage Bill had on superspeedways in '85, its not like the #88 team had an advantage on the flat tracks like Phoenix in '97. If anything, in '01 DJ had better numbers on flat tracks: Martinsville (Win, 2nd) Phoenix (9th) New Hampshire (Win, 10th) Richmond (15th - out of fuel late while running top 5, 4th) 88. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 03.04.2011 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some pretty good commentary about NASCAR's past drivers (whom I got to watch while some of them were still racing). Davey Allison's unfortunate death will always have people debating over what he would have accomplished if he were still around, but like somebody mentioned earlier, you can never really predict what will happen in racing. Jeff Burton's downfall from '02-'04 with Roush and Dale Jr's downfall from '05-present are good examples of that. I never would have thought at the time of the 2004 off season that Jr would only score 3 more wins within the next 6 years. But I'd be one to vouch for Davey having at the very least, a consistent career and maintaining the win pace he had. As for Jeff Burton, as a fan of his I was disappointed that he didn't at least race Gordon more aggressively in the 1997 Southern 500. 89. 00andJoe posted: 03.04.2011 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Perhaps, instead of being a gentleman in that race (1997 Southern 500), he should have asked, 'What Would Ward Do'? 90. 00andJoe posted: 08.30.2011 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #70 sponsor: Foretravel/Race Fuel Energy Drink 91. numbah10hatah posted: 12.28.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Charles Lewandoski's best career Nationwide Series finish. 92. Windows Millennium Edition posted: 05.14.2016 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor updates: #60 Ford Drive One. #09 Family Farmers/American Ethanol #20 SportClips Haircuts #79 CarportEmpire.com/So Down Financing 93. Maverick11 posted: 05.31.2016 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm to the point where I find myself hoping one of the interlopers gets injured in a Nationwide Series crash and ruins their shot at a Sprint Cup title; nothing too horribly serious, maybe a broken leg or collar bone." Well 4 years later and your wish was granted, except for the title part. 94. SK posted: 04.19.2018 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This was Timmy Hill's Nationwide/Xfinity Series debut. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: