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  *Comments on the 2012 Sprint All-Star Challenge:*
  View the most recent comment <#130> | Post a comment <#post>


  1.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 8:33 pm
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FIRST COMMENT! WHOOT FINALLY!!!!! GO GET 'EM MARTIN!


  2.   Newman's Own Salad Dressing posted:
  05.19.2012 - 8:41 pm
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Trevor Bayne making his All-Star Race debut. How about a repeat of 1996
for that #21 car.


  3.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 9:10 pm
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I'd like that. Let's see Bayne win it!


  4.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 9:50 pm
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Edwards looses his engine. Hmm. Let's see now who will end up winning
this, as it won't be a back-to-back winner.


  5.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:30 pm
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And there goes Biffle up in flames. Dang. I go to another tab just the
milisecond before it happens, and miss it all. Rats. It's a shame
Racebuddy dosen't have a rewind feature.


  6.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:31 pm
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...Am I the only one here? Usually we'd se cjs or DSFF or Lord Lowe or
someone like that here. Odd.


  7.   Anonymous posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:37 pm
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Segment winners:
Segment 1: Jimmie Johnson
Segment 2: Matt Kenseth
Segment 3: Brad Keselowski
Segment 4: Dale Earnhardt Jr.


  8.   Anonymous posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:50 pm
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Jimmie Johnson joins Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon as a three time
winner of the All-Star Race.

What was Todd Gordon (Allmendinger's crew chief) thinking putting 4
tires on during the last pit stop?


  9.   beau posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:53 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

seriously, they need to move the all-star to daytona or talladega. this
race, like almost every other all-star, was a waste of goddamn time.
NOTHING happened.


  10.   . posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:57 pm
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Congrats to Jimmie Johnson. He looked the best when he was out front and
made everyone else look like nothing when he raced.

I don't like this format. It seems wrong to me that somebody can win
after sitting 20 seconds behind the field for 60 laps and then get to
line up first for the final 10 laps after. I also don't see the point of
the final "pit stop" if everyone just stops in their stall for a second
and leaves in the same running order.


  11.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 10:59 pm
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Great race in a racing wise. But the All-Star race is the only race in
the year I watch for crashes and insane moves, and there was few of either.

Congrats to Jimmie Johnson! My fav driver wins it again! Jr had a
chance, the car was pretty good, but Kenseth spun his tires on the restart.

The problem is not where, but how. Looking at the past events of this
race, the most exciting has always seemed to be something like the
following:

Segment 1: 30 laps.
*Possible Field Inversion*
Segment 2: Another 30 laps.
*Another possibly Field Inversion*
Segment 3: 10 lap shootout.

The setup from the early-mid 90's worked well, and was almost always
exciting in every way possible. Then again, I might be jinxing it. This
is two straight All-Star races now I've watched, and neither have been
pulse-pounding, although this one had good racing in general. 2013, I'll
try NOT to watch the All-Star race.

Again, congratulations to Hendrick. This makes three Sprint Cup races in
a row he has won, two with Johnson and one with Jr. However, the
Showdown and All-Star races are 'non-points' events, so no one will
count them.


  12.   NadeauFan91 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:01 pm
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@#9 are you kidding? Those first four segments actually had RACING!
Something that has been severely lacking in the series all year. Other
than the horrid final segment, I say this was the best race of the season.

Also, Johnson-Junior 1-2 for the 600. Their finishing spots are
interchangeable.


  13.   Jarrett88fan posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:18 pm
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Damn what an impressive display of strategy, intelligence and cunning
from the #48 team. Jimmie Johnson dictated this race to his competition,
i.e. he beat them after 20 laps. That is why between the years
2006-2010, his team mentally whipped its feeble minded competition in
the championship department. After some intense racing for 80 laps, all
the tension popped in the final 10 laps. For next year's All Star race,
just have the top 4 cars (winners of the first four segments) start the
last 10 laps, Tony Stewart might approve after his Talladega suggestions.

Everything DaleSrFanForever and CJS have posted on what separates Jimmie
Johnson from the competition was on display during this race. I knew
this race was over after 20 laps, baring the 48 getting caught in a
wreck or miscommunication in the pits. This format made the race seem
like Talladega and Daytona strategy wise, guys lagging back, preserving
their equipment for the very end.

After tonights race, baring the miss-fortunes of racing, Jimmie Johnson
and the #48 will win a 6th championship in November 2012. Oh sure they
will win a few more races before Chase time, but they will play it safe
leading up to the Chase and go ultra-consistent or flat out bury their
closes competitors, if the circumstances dictate.


  14.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:31 pm
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"Survival of the Fastest" would have been perfect for this race.


  15.   Mr X posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:35 pm
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That was the most pathetic all star race format ever. I still think that
the 2002-2003 format was best. If you didn't like your driver being
eliminated then your driver should've driven harder, and his team
should've prepared a faster car. Larry Mac said Jimmie earned over 1
million dollars for 90 laps, he didn't he earned over 1 million dollars
for 30 laps effort. I also wonder why NASCAR continues to end this race
with a 10 lap segment. Doesn't it seem odd that year after year the
final segment is the most boring because there isn't enough time for
anything to happen. This race's finish was sealed on the final restart
as the outside line didn't go like the inside. If anything the final
segment should be the longest, all the other segments had the best
racing right at the end of the 20 laps, just as the short run starts to
become a long run. The racing was better I think that this new package
with a little bit less dowforce will bode well for the racing, and some
longer runs will make the 600 quite entertaining I think. A softer tire
would help even more yet. But most importantly this format should never
again be used by any race anywhere. The only good thing that came of
this format was that Jimmie Johnson didn't dominate the entire race
because he didn't have to which concequently led to multiple drivers
putting on a pretty decent show. However I very much look forward to the
600.


  16.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:36 pm
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On the positive side, the new aero changes seemed to allow them to race
better. But I hated this format. Congrats to the 48 for playing it
perfectly and having the best car. But this needs to be dumped. I agree,
the elimination format was the best.


  17.   Jarrett88fan posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:40 pm
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"Segment 1: 30 laps.
*Possible Field Inversion*
Segment 2: Another 30 laps.
*Another possibly Field Inversion*
Segment 3: 10 lap shootout."

You could add a mandatory pit work stop before the 10 lap shootout. As
for the sandbagging of segment winners controversy that is sure to
result from the 2012 race, back when the field was inverted via lottery
balls or fan vote, 8, 10 12, etc. drivers usually fell back to around
9th or 10th so they could improve their starting position before the
next segment. Drivers and teams have always exploited the Winston/Sprint
All Star race format for their advantage and 2012 was no different, but
the steep chasm between Jimmie Johnson and everyone else has returned
after a hiatus in 2011. That is the big takeaway from this race and
could be the turning point in the season.


  18.   1995z71 posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:46 pm
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ONLY thing worth noting but this boring All Star race, Hendrick goes for
a ride with JJ.


  19.   18fan posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:50 pm
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This format was awful. The best car won and there was good racing, but
it was pathetic, especially in segment 4, seeing those guys who won the
earlier segments running around way in the back just made me sick. They
played the strategy necessary to win the race, which I respect, it was
the whole concept that upset me. The whole stop and go thing is also
ridiculous. My preferred format is the 1992-1997 format: 30 laps
followed by a full field inversion, 30 laps, then 10 green flag laps
with the finishing order of segment 2 setting the lineup for the 10 lap
shootout. There would be a 10 minute break after each of the first two
segments.

When Kasey Kahne made the move to try to win segment 3 over Brad
Keselowski I had a flashback to 1994 when Ernie Irvan ran across the
grass trying to pass Geoff Bodine at the end of segment 2 and crashed.
Luckily for Kahne he didn't go onto the grass and saved his car(after he
lost his primary car to a crash in qualifying).


  20.   Jarrett88fan posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:51 pm
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The "Survival of the Fastest" elimination format was positively awesome!

"The only good thing that came of this format was that Jimmie Johnson
didn't dominate the entire race because he didn't have to which
concequently led to multiple drivers putting on a pretty decent show."

- Mr. X, if JJ and Chad wanted to dominate and win all 5 segments, they
could have. Again, they dictated strategy like the pied pipers.


  21.   Baker posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:52 pm
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New rule change and it's Hendricks out gate dominant go figure. Oh and
the racing was garbage too.


  22.   10andJoe posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:57 pm
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#47 sponsor: Kingsford Charcoal/Bush's Basked Beans


  23.   Anonymous posted:
  05.19.2012 - 11:57 pm
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Sandbagging won the night. Big shock there.


  24.   Anonymous posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:15 am
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The all star race needs to get a rid of rule of the 4 teams that win a
segment start the final Segment next to each other despite where they
finished Segment 4. I saw race teams sandbag after they won segments and
didn't do any real racing again before the final segment.

I know Jimmie would have stink up the show otherwise, but teams that
were sandbagging isn't real racing and I think the fans of some drivers
including the 48 were ripped off by the fact Johnson only raced hard for
30 laps.


  25.   Jarrett88fan posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:23 am
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Let the backlash against the sandbagging format commence...


  26.   RaceFanX posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:41 am
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Dale Earnhardt Jr. finishes in the top-5 after transfering in with a win
in the Open earlier in the day.

Since Junebug won the Open Bobby Labonte shockingly won the fan vote (he
was either second or third in the total behind Open runner-up A.J.
Allmendinger). The 2000 NASCAR Sprint Cup champion ended up 19th in the
All-Star race itself though.


  27.   Rusty posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:54 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I hated this format. It allowed Jimmie Johnson to only try for 30 laps
and still win. You shouldn't be able to jump from 20th to 1st just
because you were leading after 20 laps. If they want to make the All
Star race interesting, bring back the invert. This was terrible.


  28.   JP88 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 1:16 am
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Format was atrocious...but it was some hard, awesome racing...the
Kahne/BK finish was insane and Allmendinger really ran the heck out of
his double deuce.

Like others said...I want to see a format where inversions are in the
field, it just makes it more exciting and I don't like the fact that you
can win a segment and then chill until the last 1...I feel to be a true
winner of the All-Star race you need to run 90 (or whatever) hard laps
to win the dough.

Anyway for next week, the 48 is probably gonna lead 500 miles again,
what a car.

I know I'm a Jr. fan but I gotta go with him next week, I just think
after the way he lost last year, he's gonna get the 600 this year...and
that wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility because he had an
awesome car tonight too.


  29.   Urethra Franklin posted:
  05.20.2012 - 1:34 am
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Format sucked monkey butt. I really wish they'd just drop the gimmicky
formats and just have a normal race.


  30.   The Deuce posted:
  05.20.2012 - 2:09 am
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Stupid format, average race. Combined with a less than exciting Indy 500
pole day, made for a really crappy day of racing. Hopefully the 500-600
combo next week delivers the goods.


  31.   10andJoe posted:
  05.20.2012 - 2:17 am
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I don't think the /format/ was bad, per se.

It's just that Knaus and Johnson figured out how to blatantly game the
system completely within the rules (with Kenseth and Brad K smart enough
to catch on). The "win a segment, go to first for the pitstop" needs to
be ditched though.

(And the way they did the pitstop rules was almost /exactly/ how I
suggested after last years' Charlie Foxtrot of a mandatory pitstop
system. Spooky!)

Also, given the precedent (Jeff Burton's pitstop shenanigans some years
back) I fully expect there to be a "no lagging behind the field" rule
added next year (if not sooner).


  32.   Andrew posted:
  05.20.2012 - 9:02 am
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NASCAR will undoubtedly 'tweak' the format for next year since they
can't resist to fiddle around with anything, and for that reason next
year's event is likely to be even worse.

And for another reason: Danica will be in it. The only suspense in 2013
will be the competition between her and Junior for the fan vote. Ugh.


  33.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 9:15 am
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Yes 1995z71, that moment where Rick Hendrick rode with Jimmie Johnson to
victory lane was reminiscent of another ex-Hendrick driver, Tim
Richmond, at Indianapolis in 1980 when Johnny Rutherford, who won his
third Indianapolis 500 that year, gave Richmond a ride to victory lane
to get Richmond back to his pit area after Richmond ran out of fuel.
Rutherford later joked that he wanted to be the first to give Richmond a
ride to victory lane at Indy, because he felt Richmond would win there
himself. Of course, that was before Richmond made the decision to come
to NASCAR.

And 18fan, I agree that they should go back to that format, which was
actually used in some form from 1992-2001, though I think it should be
40-40-10, or 40-30-20. And I'm not sure they should go with a full-field
inversion, but rather the partial field inversion they used from
1998-2000. A 40-lap first segment would be nearly a full fuel run with
today's limited fuel mileage, followed by an inversion of some sort
between the first and second segments, somewhere between 8-14 cars, then
followed by either another 40 lap segment and a 10-lap finale, or a
30-lap segment and a 20-lap finale.

And another thing they used to do, but don't anymore, was to award extra
prize money to the top three finishers in each segment. It used to be
that if you won one of the first two segments, you got $50,000, $25,000
for second, and $7,500 for third. Obviously the money would need to be
ramped up compared to then, but awarding extra prize money for the top
3-5 in each segment would make the drivers race harder, especially up
front. After all, this marked the first time since 1990-'91 that there
were two pretty melancholy All-Star Races in a row, and there has never
been three dull All-Star Races in a row.


  34.   Eric posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:46 am
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Andrew,

You shouldn't act like Dale Jr can't make it into the All Star race
without the fan vote since Dale won the Sprint Showdown race this year.

There also is a chance Dale actually winning points race in cup.

All this means is the Fan Vote would be going to Danica.


  35.   Anonymous posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:58 am
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Knaus/Johnson games the system and wins


  36.   Eric posted:
  05.20.2012 - 11:21 am
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I am not saying Dale Jr will win this year, or win the the Sprint
Showdown race next year. All I am saying is Dale Jr. is capable of
winning a Sprint Showdown race and winning a points race this year is
not out of the question since he is having a very good season so far.


  37.   Rob posted:
  05.20.2012 - 11:53 am
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I bet alot of people are mad theyd didnt wreck. This season has been one
of the cleanest I can remember in NASCAR in a long time, especially in
cup. And its actually interesting to watch when they dont wreck and they
actually race and earn their positions. If they could just do away with
that horrible lucky dog rule and just do wave arounds then it would be
even better. In real racing if you go a lap down you have to earn it.
Its not just given to you..........


  38.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:15 pm
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Best race of the season if you ask me (althought i'm not one of those
people who needs wrecks, cautions and close finishes for me to entertained).

The 48 team did what they had to do to win, even i knew that when they
won the first segement they had the best car. And the best car won (gee,
people complaining that they best car won).

Could say something else but i'm not. Someone won a 1 Million dollars,
others didn't. that is racing.

BTW Matt Kenseth, work on your restarts.


  39.   Eric posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:32 pm
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1995 Subaru WRX STi,

I don't need wrecks either, but you are wrong on why people are complaining.

People are not complaining that the best car won, but the 48, 17, and
the 2 car were sandbagging after they won a segment before the final
segment got started. I know the drivers and the crew chiefs didn't want
their car wrecked before the final segment, but those teams didn't do
real racing for all 90 laps, but 30 laps for the case the 48.

The 48,17, and 2 car were behind the leaders a kit including a one of
them being over 23 seconds behind the leader for the 3rd segment.


  40.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 12:56 pm
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Rob, the free pass generally has to be earned, because it goes to only
one car per caution, max. But there have been instances in which half
the field (or more) has taken the wave-around on a single caution,
though in some instances, that has to do with when the caution falls, so
I think you have that backwards.

And 1995 Subaru WRX STi, could Matt Kenseth's problem on the final
restart have something to do with the fact that there still appeared to
be some of the drying powder on the track from the cleanup from Greg
Biffle's blown engine? Remember that they only ran six laps under green
after that, and there was no high groove to speak of at all last evening
anyway, except for when Kasey Kahne used it to try to get momentum to
get around Brad Keselowski late in the third segment, which he was
unable to do. And when Brad tried the upper groove, that's when Johnson
pulled away from him, and there didn't seem to be much of an upper grove
in Friday's Truck series event, either.


  41.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.20.2012 - 3:45 pm
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Post #39. They found a loop hole and used it. Hey, this country (US) was
founded on loop holes. #2, #17 and #48 exploted the system, oops.

Besides, isn't this race just for 1 million dollars? Does it pay points?
Last i checked it didn't, just money...........alot of it.

Since NASCAR fans now hate sandbagging, how about every race be 10 laps
so guys don't ride around for half the race and just waste are time and
"bore" us to death. ;-)

The aero changes worked to fault last night, but NASCAR could a bit
further with the changes. And it is just me or did the front ends on the
cars look higher up then usually do?

CJS i've always woundered why NASCAR just doesn't clean all the dust off
before a restart. I find it more of a distraction to the drivers then a
safety hazard. But i think it did play a factor but also guys were
spinning the tires alot last night. But still, Matt isn't the best dude
on restarts.

Note: the sentence the *wink* contains large amount of kidding. Just so
you know.


  42.   Bronco posted:
  05.20.2012 - 3:57 pm
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All Star debuts for Menard, Ragan, Ambrose and Bayne. I'm sure Menard
and Ambrose will a few more races in the future, but I don't think thats
the case with Ragan and Ambrose.

Even though it was a non points race, great finish for Kurt Busch.


  43.   18fan posted:
  05.20.2012 - 4:01 pm
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Even with a perfectly clean racetrack on that restart Kenseth still
would've been beaten badly because everybody who restarted on the
outside of the front row got smoked on the restart.


  44.   Corn posted:
  05.20.2012 - 5:15 pm
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Bronco, David Ragan competed in the All-Star race last year because he
won the Showdown to get in. This was the first year he was eligible
because he won a points race.


  45.   Corn posted:
  05.20.2012 - 5:17 pm
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Correction to my last post, by eligible I mean the first year Ragan was
locked into the All-Star field because of a win.


  46.   irony posted:
  05.20.2012 - 5:54 pm
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The format sucked, but it was still an above average All-Star race for
the first 80 laps. Clean 3 wide racing. Glad that there was no 10 minute
break this year. Now they need to get rid of the long driver intros. The
only excitement in that is seeing who won the fan vote, which SPEED
spoiled for us.


  47.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 6:09 pm
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Bronco, you said that this was the first Al-Star Race for Menard,
Ambrose, Bayne, and Ragan (which is factually incorrect). But you also
stated that Menard and Ambrose will be in a few more, while you said
that Ragan and Ambrose will not. Now what category do you put Ambrose
in, beacuse he can't be in both. I do think that Ambrose will be in at
least one or two more All-Star Races, just because of his road racing
prowess, but it may have been Ragan's last All-Star Race, you're almost
certainly right about that. Now where Menard and Bayne stand in that, I
don't know. If I had to guess, we'll probably see Menard in the event
again, but this may have been Bayne's first and last All-Star Race,
especially if he stays anchored with Roush, because he might wind up out
of the sport entirely in three years if his career stays on it's current
course.


  48.   Eric posted:
  05.20.2012 - 6:23 pm
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Bronco,

I disagree with you on Ambrose. It goes to the fact Ambrose is great on
road courses and the amount of drivers having a shot to win on a road
course is going down a little bit based on equipment or declining skills
for road racing.

When comes to Road courses, Jeff Gordon hasn't been the top driver cup
driver on road courses for a while although he's still good at Sonoma
despite not winning there after 2006. Jeff has problems finishing in the
top 10 at Watkins Glen since he won last won there in 2001.

Kurt Busch can't win at road course this year because of his team and is
unclean if he can be signed to a good race team due to his past
behavior. Robby Gordon does not the equipment to match his skill for
road courses.

Tony Stewart is question mark at that type of track because in 2010, and
2011 his performance at Sears Point and Watkins Glen has slipped. I
don't know if it caused by the crew chief. This year is the sign were
he's at since his current crew chief has won 3 times on Road Courses on
the cup level.




  49.   Alex posted:
  05.20.2012 - 6:52 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Nice recovery for Kevin Harvick after almost getting into a wreck with
his teammate, Paul Menard.


  50.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  05.20.2012 - 7:11 pm
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Part of my post in the All-Star Showdown should have gone here, and that
is this:

"The #48 may be back. We'll see how he does in the 600."

I thought some of the racing for the lead was pretty good at some
points, but it wasn't great. I rank this year's All-Star as one of those
where I don't know what to say, except "so-so".

And yes, I always liked the suspense and excitement that came with the
"Survival of the Fastest" format. I like the current format too, but the
only thing I would change is to make the race 70-80 laps long instead of
90 (just seems too long).


  51.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 8:01 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

17. Jarrett88fan posted:
05.19.12 - 11:40 pm

"Segment 1: 30 laps.
*Possible Field Inversion*
Segment 2: Another 30 laps.
*Another possibly Field Inversion*
Segment 3: 10 lap shootout."

You could add a mandatory pit work stop before the 10 lap shootout.

^ Oh. Yeah. Good idea. I forgot about that.
Like I had said before, the race was satisfactory. However, it is nice
to see that most people here all agree that 90 laps and 5 segements were
to much. Just 3 or 4 segments and 50-80 laps.

I have never, ever complained about sandbagging, and I still won't.
Granted, it's an eyesore. But it's strategy. When it comes to
sandbagging and winning/doing well, JJ K-O's. at it. Anyone else
remember the Fall 2008-2009 Tally races and the spring 2011 race? Yeah.
Yeah. The guy and his team knows how to get it done. People don't like
him, and his way of racing, because it's not eye candy. Earndhart
*Crashart* Sr. was a madman that would bang the heck out of your car to
win. Gordon could drive in the late 90's and early millennium like the
car was a freakish extension of his body, and Kyle Busch can somewhat do
that today. David Pearson, Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, Cale Yarbrough,
those guys were all aggressive, although not overly so.

Meanwhile, Jimmie Johnson differs from all the above drivers because he
races more mentally then anyone else. Furthermore, he has one of the
best minds in motorsports, Chad Kanus, behind him. Nobody likes him
because he doesn't rough anyone up *usually*, he doesn't drive insane,
or the like. He makes his decisions Very Cold and Calculated, and so
does his team.

I'll bet you a dollar to a Gamecube *Hidden meaning behind that
statement* that if it was Jeff Gordon, Mark Martin, or heaven forbid
Tony Stewart doing this, the fans would compliment them on it. They'd
say 'Smart, very smart. Nice to see these guys preserve their cars'. But
because Jimmie's name has been on the top of the championship hunt for 7
years straight, 2004-2010, and he had won 5 of those, no one likes him.
Fans hate dominance. They prefer to see two or three extra-dominating
drivers. But Tony Stewart aside, who is JJ's biggest rival? Kurt Busch?
Please. If the guy dosen't win on a fuel mileage race here soon or
something, that guy will be outta a ride soon. Kenseth? No. He's to
cautious. J. Gordon? Allthough he could still win, his championship days
are done.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Solar Eclipse to watch.


  52.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.20.2012 - 8:20 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I read a suggestion elsewhere, that if they're going to give the drivers
who won each segment preffered entry into the pits for the final
pitstop, then it should go in reverse order to what it did on the night.
For example, the winner of segment four should be in first, followed by
the winner of segment three and so on and so forth.

"But because Jimmie's name has been on the top of the championship hunt
for 7 years straight, 2004-2010, and he had won 5 of those, no one likes
him. "

I'll always barrack for the underdog - Marcos Ambrose has been my
favourite driver for over ten years now - but I don't have a problem
with Jimmie Johnson at all. Whilst I don't identify with his
personality, it's impossible not to respect and admire is achievements.
When it comes to people I would like to see in victory lane, I have the
48 ahead of many, many others.


  53.   18fan posted:
  05.20.2012 - 8:35 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

My feeling about the 48 team is that, although I am sick of how much
Jimmie wins, they deserve the utmost respect for what they have
accomplished. I may not root for him during races, but at the end of the
day I give them the respect they deserve.


  54.   Eric posted:
  05.20.2012 - 8:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Destroyahirismix666,

Race Fans complained about that Sandbagging and it wasn't because it
Jimmie Johnson like you claimed. The Fans had problems with Matt and
Brad doing the same thing as Jimmie. The type of Sandbagging they did
was one that you don't see in a normal race. The type of Sandbagging
those 3 did was for each restart after they won a segment was they were
Back of the field, but not close to any car on the restart.

Having cars far back from rest of the cars on restarts is not normal
sandbagging.

I don't know where the heck you got the Statement I bet a dollar to a
Gamecube from or the hidden meaning of it. That statement you made is
one the that my generation wouldn't make a first place. My generation
were already adults or in college by the time Playstation 2 or any game
system from that time period came out including the Gamecube.

My generation heard of the statement a dollar to a doughnut, but that is
the closest thing to a dollar to a Gamecube people from my generation.

The 2nd thing with your "I'll be a dollar to a Gamecube statement" is
the fact most people do not use that saying a first place.


  55.   Rob posted:
  05.20.2012 - 9:38 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

@post 40 im not saying do away with the wave around. all series just
about use that. im just saying do away with the free pass. it dosent
really do anything anyways. the wave around is just in place so you dont
have a crazy amount of lapped cars clogging up the track for the leader.
it just dosent make any sense to have a wave around and a free pass.


  56.   LASTCAR posted:
  05.20.2012 - 9:57 pm
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I introduced Regan Smith. :)


  57.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:03 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The 48 team deserve respect for what they have done. To pull a DSFF,
can't devalue their championships because of the Chase system (if you
want to go ahead but your walking a slippery slope with no hope of return.)

Yes even i've said they 2 of their 5 don't count (cheating of course).
But i wouldn't devaule them because of the Chase. Its the system they use.

I think its safe to say he'll be top 5 all time.


  58.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:27 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I need to start reading posts more thoroughly then I have been. Yeah,
everyone was angry with Matt and Brad sandbagging it.

You know, I still have no problems with these guys sandbagging it
though. If that's what they want to do to save their cars for the end,
that's a great strategy, go through with it.

However, just so the fans will shut up, how about the winners from the
four segments park their cars after each segment. Then, when those four
segments are done and we have our winners, NASCAR will automatically
eliminate all of the drivers that didn't win a segment and leave the
winning four to have at it. Then again, the NASCAR fans would complain
about that to. *Sigh* What a fickled bunch we are.

I still think that we have seen great racing all year, and I am
definitely looking forward to the Coke 600 for more of the same! YEE-HAW!

Ehhh, Sorry. I've been contemplating buying a Gamecube system here.
Looking back, I don't know why I made such a stupid statement about it
on here. Looking back, I just want to slam my face into the desk.


  59.   Baker posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:38 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Maybe they should let the top 4 average finishers put first? It would
force every car to run balls out every segment. Jimmie would have still
won with his superior car but he would have had to at least earn it.


  60.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:44 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Rob, the free pass is there because in 2003, NASCAR wanted to give teams
that had bad luck a chance to make up a lap when racing back to the
caution was finally ended, so they came up with the rule that the
highest scored car in the race not on the lead lap got a lap back. I
have no problem with that, but it's the wave-arounds, especially those
that abuse the wave arounds late in races that I have a problem with.
The instance you refer to is the only good time to have wave arounds,
but wave arounds can actually be controlled by cars on the lead lap. All
a car on the lead lap has to do is not stop under caution and that will
eliminate many wave arounds. In fact, Denny Hamlin had just that in mind
at Darlington when he stayed out during a caution just to keep Jeff
Gordon from making up a lap. The wave around is actually an IndyCar idea
that spread through racing in the last decade. But teams that are
multiple laps down frequently abuse it. That's why it's a bad idea in
general.


  61.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.20.2012 - 10:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

And by the way, for those that dislike the top-35 rule, you have company
from within the NASCAR family. On SPEED's Wind Tunnel With Dave Despain
tonight, Larry McReynolds said the top-35 rule is an idea whose time has
passed. Now this is the first time I can recall someone from within
NASCAR, or the NASCAR family has made such a comment about the top-35
exemption rule in the Cup series.


  62.   bduddy posted:
  05.21.2012 - 2:33 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Here's my ASR format... No "segments" or any of that crap. Yellow flags
don't count. Every 5 laps, the last driver gets pulled off the track.
Continue until done (110 laps with 23 drivers like this "race"...). Any
thoughts? I think it would work way better than anything they've come up
with lately...


  63.   Jeffrey posted:
  05.21.2012 - 9:53 am
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#61: Obviously you don't/can't listen to SiriusXM NASCAR radio because
the hosts debate with each other over the top-35 rule all the time.


My opinion on the All-Star Race? With all the format changes we've
already done, how about just putting a bullet in the head of this race
and just make the Shootout in Daytona THE All-Star Race.


  64.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.21.2012 - 11:17 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Like I stated in that post Jeffrey, that's the first time I've heard
anyone have a dissenting voice about the top-35 exemption rule. I never
said there weren't any dissenting voice about that. I'm sure there have
been since the rule was first instituted in 2005. And you're right, I
have no access to Sirius Satellite Radio, so I've never heard the debate
in question.

And like I and several others have said about the All-Star Race format,
they should just go back to the 1992-2001 format, where they run three
segments, invert at least part of the field after the first (I say
between 8-14 cars), and eliminate the fan vote. That was when the
All-Star Race at it's best. And they should also ramp up the money for
high finishes in the segments prior to the finale. Make it $100,000 to
win, $50,000 for second, and $25,000 for third. And I say the segments
should either be 40-40-10, 40-30-20, or 40-40-20. In other words, they
should never have messed with a successful formula, with the three
segment, mid-race field inversion format was.


  65.   Baker posted:
  05.21.2012 - 11:42 am
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This is what I predict that rest of the year now that Nascar has made
rule changes to the areo package:

12. Coca Cola 600 :: Jimmie Johnson
13. Dover :: Jimmie Johnson
14. Pocono :: Denny Hamlin
15. Michigan :: Greg Biffle
16. Sonoma :: Marcos Ambrose
17. Kentucky :: Kyle Busch
18. Daytona :: Dale Earnhardt Jr.
19. Loudon :: Jimmie Johnson
20. Indianapolis :: Jimmie Johnson
21. Pocono :: Brad Keselowski
22. Watkins Glen :: Marcos Ambrose
23. Michigan :: Carl Edwards
24. Bristol :: Kyle Busch
25. Atlanta :: Kasey Kahne
26. Richmond :: Jeff Gordon
27. Chicago :: Kasey Kahne
28. Loudon :: Jimmie Johnson
29. Dover :: Jimmie Johnson
30. Kansas :: Matt Kenseth
31. Talladega :: Carl Edwards
32. Charlotte :: Tony Stewart
33. Martinsville :: Jimmie Johnson
34. Texas :: Jimmie Johnson
35. Phoenix :: Jimmie Johnson
36. Homestead :: Carl Edwards

Jimmie Johnson 10
Tony Stewart 3
Denny Hamlin 3
Brad Keselowski 3
Kyle Busch 3
Carl Edwards 3
Greg Biffle 2
Marcose Ambrose 2
Kasey Kahne 2
Matt Kenseth 2
Jeff Gordon 1
Ryan Newman 1
Dale Earnhardt Jr. 1


  66.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.21.2012 - 3:48 pm
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Baker, I feel you might not be too far off. Although 10 total wins for
the 48 this year may be a bit much to predict (although I certainly
wouldn't be surprised), it looks like the theme for the rest of their
year is "Back On Track". After their "epic slump" of only winning 3
races from Mid July 2010 through Early May 2012 (in that same time, my
driver, Brad K, won 5 times and I am super pumped about that which shows
you the expectations on the 48) they are back. The streak is over, now
they can just worry about the dynasty.

It is hard to pick somebody that can beat him this year. Kenseth is a
good bet as he is the steadiest of them and his team has speed, but not
as much as the 48. They will have to rely on some 48 bad luck in the
cha$e as well as having some of their 2003 luck for those 10 races
themselves. Brad K and the Blue Deuce seem to be the closest on pure
speed at times, but have nowhere the consistency under the hood (two
fuel pump failures already), behind the wheel (had 3 weeks in a row with
pit mistakes by the driver), and overall (the stinkbomb at Darlington).
So although he had pure domination at Bristol and the incredible last
lap move reversal of thought at the 1974 Firecracker 400 Talladega, I
don't see them yet as champions. The 18 team is obviously fast and the
driver is freakishly talented. He has been in the hunt and is a good
pick for the next two races. But good Lord, does anybody really trust
Kyle under pressure? His teammate Denny has also shown flashes of speed
but overall inconsistency. Plus, although he is no KyBu, he has a
propensity to lose his head. Ditto for Smoke. The 29 has shown they will
hang around forever, but has shown little strength this year as Kevin
seems to be getting unhappier by the week and his crew has to be on
eggshells after he basically had his whole team from last year fired.
Biff? I don't see him keeping this up. Carl? See Mark Martin in '91,
Bobby Labonte in '01, Kenseth in '04, KuBu in '05, Gordon in '08.

Which leads us to the guy who might win the whole thing or might not
even make it out of the Top 20: Wile E Coyote Jeff Gordon. His luck has
been cartoonish this year. He needs to change his sponsor to Acme. But
this luck can't last forever. It has to turn around. And they still have
Jeff Gordon behind the wheel. HMS seems to be getting back ahead of the
curve. If they can give Jeff what he wants, and he gets into the cha$e
with a head of steam feeling it like he has in the past, look out. Plus
he is no longer buried under the suffocating shadow of the 48 in their
shop. The 48 has Dale Jr in their shop, the 24 has Kasey Kahne in
their's. Advantage: Jeff. Yes, that is a LOT of "if"s. But honestly,
that is the best hope against JJ.


  67.   Baker posted:
  05.21.2012 - 4:05 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

I love how you and everyone else always discount Tony for some reason.
Jeff is not more of a threat than Tony. When Tony gets hot he is more on
touchable than JJ himself he just can't maintain it for 20-30 weeks like
JJ. I'm not saying he will win it but he'll always be JJ's biggest
threat simply bc he streaks a lot hotter when he does get on a role.


  68.   Daniel posted:
  05.21.2012 - 5:13 pm
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600 Entry list:

-Danica Patrick in the #10

-Trevor Bayne in the #21

-T.J. Bell in the #32

-David Reutimann in the #73

-Cole Whitt in the #74

-Scott Speed in the #95


  69.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.21.2012 - 5:26 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

DSFF, Jeff Gordon has no shot this year. Despite what you might think,
Saturday night's All-Star Race showed just how slow they are compared to
the other Hendrick cars. They were never competitve while all the other
Hendrick cars ran up front with two winning segments and the other
coming within inches of doing the same. Plus he's saddled with Alan
Gustafson, who is as much of a curse this year as he was a blessing last
year (remember that this is Gustafson's second year with Gordon and
let's not forget how Mark Martin's fortunes sunk as if they had an anvil
tied to them during Gustafson's second year with him). Just getting into
the top 15 for them may be a chore, and his finish of fourth at Texas
might be the best he does all year, except possibly for Martinsville in
the fall. Frankly, Gordon is the only thing holding the #24 up or they
might already have sinked faster than the Titanic this year, and I just
wonder how much longer even Gordon can keep that team up. And judging by
his post-race interview at Darlington, it seems that even Gordon is
beginning to sound defeated. And they have not been competitve from a
speed standpoint on the high-speed tracks this year. Sure he drove into
the top five at California and Texas, but that had more to do with the
handling of his car thatn the speed of his car

And Baker, a major reason that Tony Stewart can't stay hot like Jimmie
Johnson can is that his cars always fit the regulations. 2012 is
Stewart's 14th in the Cup series, and I have not once heard of one of
his cars running afoul of the rulebook in any way, going back to his
decade-long tenure in the #20 car for Joe Gibbs Racing.


  70.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.21.2012 - 5:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"And Baker, a major reason that Tony Stewart can't stay hot like Jimmie
Johnson can is that his cars always fit the regulations. 2012 is
Stewart's 14th in the Cup series, and I have not once heard of one of
his cars running afoul of the rulebook in any way, going back to his
decade-long tenure in the #20 car for Joe Gibbs Racing."

Blame Chad for getting Jimmie into trouble. Chad doesn't need to skurt
the rules when he already has an advantage...........its the dude
between the seat and the steering wheel.


  71.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.21.2012 - 6:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

And 1995 Subaru WRX STi, what does that say for the people that Tony
Stewart, and by association from when he was there, Joe Gibs surrounded
him with? They wanted to win as badly as anyone, but they wouldn't take
shortcuts to do it. A classic example of this was 2004. Tony Stewart
didn't do that great in 2004 because his team wouldn't run the insanely
low gear ratios that Hendrick Motorsports and DEI were running that
year, or the radical chassis setups that Roush ran that year. HMS and
DEI would run those crazy gear ratios that would turn the engines to as
high as 11,000 RPMs, but Joe Gibbs and his team refused to go down that
path. And while it cost them in 2004, those decisions paid off in 2005
when the gear ratio rule was passed and Stewart dominated the second
half of the year and won the championship.


  72.   10andJoe posted:
  05.21.2012 - 7:58 pm
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47 cars entered for the World 600.

-Danica in the #10, Reutimann in the #73, Kvapil stays in the #93
-Bayne in the #21
-T.J. Bell in the #32
-Leicht in the #33 (now ROTY candidate, and won't be mentioned from now
on unless he's /not/ in it)
-Whitt in the #74
-Scott Speed in the #95


  73.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.21.2012 - 8:14 pm
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I agree Chad has no reason to cheat when he has Jimmie Johnson as a
driver. That is just ego on his part. If there is one legitimate knock
against their success it is the question of just how much of their
success came about honestly. And that is Chad's fault. He is gonna wind
up holding JJ's legacy back.


  74.   Baker posted:
  05.21.2012 - 8:35 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Why is everyone acting like Jimmie or Rick don't know what chad is up to
with this stuff? A team wins loses and cheats together. Also he's a
great driver don't get me wrong, but again don't act like the best team,
car and crew chief don't help him. I always see him dominate in
perfectly handling cars then suck in ill-handling cars then get right
back into the race with 50 to go on a great Knaus call after Knaus got
the car righted. I always see him win with 4 fresh ones to someone
else's 2. One old tires I always see the opposite I see Jeff take him to
school like Atlanta last fall or Tony repeatedly killing him on restarts
at Vegas. Equal car, crew, crew chief and everything else I take Jeff or
Tony any day and old timers like Herb Petty Pearson Earnhardt Cale will
always dwarf Jimmie in my eyes.


  75.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.21.2012 - 9:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (1)      (0)

"And 1995 Subaru WRX STi, what does that say for the people that Tony
Stewart, and by association from when he was there, Joe Gibs surrounded
him with? They wanted to win as badly as anyone, but they wouldn't take
shortcuts to do it."

Joe has always ran an honest team and doesn't put up with that crap.
Even the oil pan thing was minor concidering all the HMS (especially
Chads wrong doings) have done. Joe realizes that he has 2 great drivers
(Kyle and Denny) that don't need "questionable" equipment to win. Plus
(this is just me) Joes religious views will not allow ANYONE on that
team to pull anything dirty. (like i said, its just me).

Chad is a smart CC but for crying out load Chad, just do your damn job
and give Jimmie what he needs to win.

"I agree Chad has no reason to cheat when he has Jimmie Johnson as a
driver. That is just ego on his part. If there is one legitimate knock
against their success it is the question of just how much of their
success came about honestly. And that is Chad's fault. He is gonna wind
up holding JJ's legacy back."

I'm copying this and saving it somewhere on my laptop. I'll pay you
later DSFF. ;-) And if i said that to a certain JJ fan on the SPEED
boards. I'd have my head ripped off.

"Why is everyone acting like Jimmie or Rick don't know what chad is up
to with this stuff?"

Jimmie knows but Rick knows more then Jimmie.

I know this my maybe not a popular opinion but i view Ray Evernham a
better CC then Chad Knaus. Why? Cuz Ray knew what he had on his hands
and didn't need pull any funny business to cloud Jeffs legacy. Besides,
when Ray and Jeff were together 90% of that time was about how to make
the cars better.


  76.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.21.2012 - 9:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

1995 Subaru WRX STi, Ray Evernham did almost as much in the questionable
department as has Chad Knaus. The only difference is that Ray rarely got
caught. The only two times I can recall him getting caught were at
Charoltte in 1995 with the unapproved (and I suspect illegal) hubs and
in 1996 after Gordon won the spring race at Richmond, his car along with
two others that finished in the top five were caught being too low,
though in the case of what happened at Richmond in 1996, no penalties
were assessed to any of those guilty of being too low. But I suspect
that Evernham was doing things that he wasn't supposed to, but either
didn't get caught, or was actually allowed to cheat by NASCAR to ensure
Chevrolet a car capable of winning when the #24 was the only non-Ford
capable of winning in the second half of the 1998 season. But what many
including myself say about Knaus is that he's not only one of the
biggest cheaters in the sport's history, but also one of the worst.

But cheating in some form has been going on forever. For instance, when
the Elliotts dominated the speedways in the mid-80s, they were actually
pressurizing either the air or fuel flow going into the engine, I forget
which. Dan Elliott actually admitted that on an episode of Wind Tunnel
when he was interviewed. But that's what gave Bill Elliott such a big
speed edge over his competition, not aerodynamics. Then there were the
countless ways that Junior Johnson and Smokey Yunick cheated over the
years. Penske Racing, which I believe has been cheating in IndyCar
racing for years, was actually caught using ilegal fuel in the car of
Jeremy Mayfield at Talladega in the 2000 spring race there. And speaking
of Penske Racing, Paul Tracy a number of years ago admitted that Penske
was using traction control in 1994, whe they won three-quarters of the
races (12 of 16) on the IndyCar circuit. Then there was the nitrous
oxide scandal that rocked the 1976 Daytona 500, and rumors of just how
long A.J. Foyt was using nitrous oxide in IndyCar racing back in the
1970s and early 80s. And who's to say chicanery isn't going on now that
isn't being caught, or has not yet been caught.


  77.   10andJoe posted:
  05.21.2012 - 10:24 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The difference between a Good Ol' Boy and a Dirty Rotten Cheater is that
a Good Ol' Boy doesn't get caught...


  78.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.21.2012 - 10:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

That isn't necessarily true, either, 10andJoe. After all, Richard Petty
was once caught with an oversized engine at Charlotte in 1983 (and
probably did it many other times), David Pearson was once caught with an
oversized restrictor plate the day before the 1971 Daytona 500 when he
drove for Holman-Moody, and Bobby Allison's constant battles with
inspectors, no matter what team he drove for, are legendary. And there
are many other examples. In fact, the first car across the finish line
in the Daytona Beach and Road Course races in both 1954 and '55 were
disqualified. And the drivers were Tim Flock and Fireball Roberts.


  79.   LordLowe posted:
  05.21.2012 - 11:40 pm
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I wonder How Things In NASCAR would be different if you were running
things Jase


  80.   Red posted:
  05.22.2012 - 1:04 am
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Forgive me if this is a stupid thing to ask, but how much of an
advantage does cheating really give the team in question? I can see an
oversized engine or soaked tires making a difference, but some of the
nitpicky stuff that guys are getting caught with in the last decade
seems to be of little consequence. Many of the teams who've been
penalized after post-race inspection didn't even run that well during
the race in which they cheated. In the 2000 Dega race when Mayfield's
team used tampered fuel, they only finished 14th. When Mikey's team used
jet fuel during 2007 Speedweeks, their performance was nothing out of
the ordinary. Rusty was penalized at Dega in 2002 despite only finishing
13th. The Hendrick fender incident at Sonoma in 2007 didn't seem to help
those cars in practice before they got caught.

Even with race winners who failed inspection, I question how much their
"cheating" really helped. Did Clint Bowyer win at New Hampshire in 2010
solely because his car was 1/32" too low? I bet he would have won
anyway. Did Carl Edwards win at Vegas in 2008 because of his
questionable oil pan? Considering he won nine races that year, he
probably would've won anyway.

I understand why people take offense to cheating from a moral
perspective, but from a practical standpoint, I just don't think most
cheating incidents really affect the outcome of the races. Plus, I must
admit, I kind of admire the teams that are willing to push the envelope
in the name of innovation, especially in today's era of spec cars and
super tight templates. If they cross the line on occassion, then so be
it. I'd rather see outside-the-box thinkers than a bunch of guys who sit
on their hands and never try anything new.


  81.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.22.2012 - 5:33 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

When a hundredth of a second every lap means all the difference in the
world as it does nowadays, those infractions are worth quite a bit.


  82.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.22.2012 - 12:10 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Red, in the case of Clint Bowyer at New Hampshire, their car was
considerably over the tolerances allowed. In fact, they were one-sixth
of an inch outside the tolerances too low, so if you include the
tolerance, they were about four-tenths of an inch too low, which is
pretty significant, since they give you about one-quarter of an inch to
work with. And Mayfield's team probably would not have gotten caught
with the illegal fuel at Talladega in 2000 had he not won the pole for
that event, because their fuel might not have gotten checked.

And the penalites that Rusty got in 2002 were for a pre-qualifying
infraction, so who knows how much that might have helped had they been
able to run it in the race, and the same goes for MWR's jet fuel
infractions in 2007. Those were caught in post-quafying inspection, so
they couldn't run that fuel in either the qualifying races, or the 500
itself, so who knows what kind of advantage it might have given them ahd
they been able to run it in the race itself.

And of course, there are infractions that are never caught, such as the
Elliotts tampering with the air and/or fuel flow into their engines that
gave them a big advantage in the mid-80s, because I thought that
pressurizing air and fuel flow has always been illegal. And Dan Elliott
has admitted to pressurizing the air and/or fuel folw into the engines
to make more horsepower. There was a reason why they were so dominant on
the biggest tracks, while their advantage became less and less apparent
when they got to the smaller tracks, even the 1.5 mile tracks, and
certainly the short tracks, miles, and road courses.


  83.   LordLowe posted:
  05.22.2012 - 1:42 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Hey DSFF what would you do if you were in charge of NASCAR.


  84.   Eric posted:
  05.22.2012 - 7:01 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

cjs3872,

Does your opinion on Trevor Bayne's future for Roush changes if what Bob
Dillner heard happens?

What I got from NASCAR Hub from Bob Dillner is Joe Gibbs Racing is
looking at Ryan Newman for next year to be the driver of the 20 car. If
Ryan leave the 39, it Bob Dillner claims Stewart would replace Newman
with Ricky Stenhouse. Bob acknowledges that Ricky is with Roush, but
Ricky also has a working relationship with Tony Stewart when Ricky raced
in USAC for Tony's USAC team. That means Ricky would be trying to get
out of his contract with Roush.


  85.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.22.2012 - 7:51 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well Eric, it potentially opens up the #6 car if sponsorship can be
found, so I think the answer to that is obvious. That is if Roush
doesn't put someone else in that car. On the other hand, if Stenhouse
moved over to the #39 car (or whatever number it might wind up being)
after he was assured of the #6 car if Roush could find sponsorship, what
would that say about Roush's willingness, or that of the Red Sox, who
he's partnered up with, to even try to find sponsorship.

Now the reason I noted about whatever car number the #39 might end up
being has to do with this. The car numbers at Stewart-Haas for the
drivers go back to their roots. Tony Stewart has always idolized A.J.
Foyt, hence the #14. But Newman has the #39 because that's the number he
ran when drove in USAC for 8-time Indy 500 starter (and four-time
top-four finisher) and 7-time USAC National Midget champion Mel Kenyon,
who Newman has such admiration for (which is reciprocated), that when
Kenyon was inducted into the International Motorsports Hall of Fame at
Talladega several years ago, it was Newman that presented Kenyon at the
IMHoF.


  86.   Baker posted:
  05.22.2012 - 9:14 pm
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Stenhouse teaming up with Stewart would be AWESOME!!!


  87.   10andJoe posted:
  05.22.2012 - 10:46 pm
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And Newman in the Home Depot car would be a pretty good match, I'd think.


  88.   Spen posted:
  05.23.2012 - 5:53 am
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Trading the potential of being Roush's next superstar for a B-slot at
Hendrick's "only give them good stuff if we can't win it" team? Way to
ruin a career, Ricky.

Newman's a step up from Logano, but I doubt he'll do much more than his
usual one win out of nowhere per year.


  89.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.23.2012 - 11:01 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The thing is, Spen, that Stenhouse may have to make such a gamble if
Roush can't find sponsorship for him, or if the Red Sox don't want Roush
to find sponsorship for him. Remember that the Red Sox are probably
pulling and holding all the financial strings of Roush's NASCAR
operation, so the Red Sox may actually have the final say on potential
sponsorship possibilities for all of Roush's drivers. They're a big
reason that Matt Kenseth, and possibly even Carl Edwards are having
problems finding sponsors, and that Trevor Bayne's Nationwide program,
at least for the time being, got pulled out from under him. And speaking
of Bayne, he may have to make a similar call in the next several months
whether to stay in career purgatory with Roush, or gamble by going to
another team.


  90.   Baker posted:
  05.23.2012 - 12:29 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Spen you act like Tony can't break off on his own. Joe Gibbs got his
stuff from Hendricks when he started too. With Stewart a successful
owner everywhere he goes it's only a matter of time before he has his
shop building their own stuff.


  91.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.23.2012 - 4:27 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Hey DSFF what would you do if you were in charge of NASCAR."

Where do I start?

-Points: Eliminate the cha$e. Go back to the Latford system and add a 20
point bonus for every win. I'd eliminate the five points for leading one
lap and only give the bonus to whoever leads the most laps.

-The cars: Spend every available dime at the R&D center focused solely
on producing cars that can race side by side and have minimal loss in
speed when in the wake of another car (while of course making sure they
are safe). I don't care what the car would end up looking like. The cars
have been ugly for over 20 years now anyways. It has also been that long
since you could tell a Ford from a Chevy, so I don't care about
manufacturer identity.

-The tracks: I'd have them shift gears on the Kansas repave (NASCAR owns
ISC, so I would have jurisdiction over that). Instead of leaving it the
same with progressive banking, I would bring the backstretch and turns
in as well as bring pit road up and basically make it an 7/8 mile Iowa
ripoff. Sue me, I have the money if I am NASCAR. And if I don't, I can
always fine Brad Keselowski for his tweets. Oh, and that casino would be
mad for moving the track away from it, to which I'd reply "you are a
freaking casino, get over it".

-The schedule: Charlotte's Fall race? Goes to Rockingham. Fontana's one
race? A second Sears Point race. The Brickyard? Gone. A second Atlanta
date provided they agree not to repave it. Ever. Chicago's date goes to
a second Homestead race. Not sure the order of the schedule, except for
Labor Day weekend. Darlington.

-Fix Watkins Glen: That place is a death trap. Even worse than Pocono
(which for the record I would put on notice big time to shape up safety
wise). A major safety overhaul would happen.

-Revoke Geoff Bodine's 1986 Daytona 500 win. Just kidding.

-Announce that due to overwhelming evidence of steroid use, NASCAR
recognizes Hank Aaron, not Barry Bonds as the Home Run King. Does NASCAR
have the jurisdiction to do that? Nope. Does it have anything to do with
racing? Of course not. But it would make me feel better.


  92.   LordLowe posted:
  05.23.2012 - 4:31 pm
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What About Publicly Firing Darrell & Michael Waltrip.


  93.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.23.2012 - 4:31 pm
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Newman to the 20? Yet another case of recycling drivers. I hate that.
Give somebody like Justin Allgaier or Trevor Bayne a shot. We have to
get this talent pipeline moving again.

Now Stenhouse to SHR? AWESOME! Him and Tony would make a great tandem.
The young and hungry as hell Ricky teamed with the old and hungry as
hell Smoke would be dyn-o-MITE!


  94.   Eric posted:
  05.23.2012 - 5:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

It is really up to Newman wants he wants to. Stewart still wants him in
the 39, but teams do want Newman.

Newman is a 2nd tier driver at best who isn't good enough to get a top 5
points finish, but somehow finds a way to win once a year.


  95.   Eric posted:
  05.23.2012 - 6:23 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The 5 inductees for the 2013 NASCAR Hall of Fame class are the following:
Herb Thomas
Leonard Wood
Rusty Wallace
Cotton Owens
Buck Baker

There is a new award for the NASCAR Hall of Fame for media members
called Squier Hall award. Ken Squier and Barney Hall are the first media
members to get the award.


  96.   Eric posted:
  05.23.2012 - 6:51 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I just found out Fireball Roberts was tied with Buck Baker in votes for
the Hall of Fame before taking a 2nd vote for the tie breaker.

Fireball Roberts not being the hall of fame is a tough break because he
and Buck belong in the Hall of Fame. He should be in for the 2014 class.

Here is my take on the five:

I am happy to see Herb Thomas, Buck Baker into the Hall of Fame. Those
two help out the representation of the 1950's. Those two drivers belong
in the Hall of Fame.

I argue Herb Thomas would had even high win totals if he wasn't taken
out due a driver following owner's orders. He is a what if question and
he would have changed NASCAR for rest of the 1950's.

Buck Baker deserves to be in this class besides being a great driver.
His driver school was responsible for drivers like Jeff Gordon and Tony
Stewart.

Leonard being in isn't a surprise. Ray Fox is going to the next Crew
chief/Mechanic in.

I am a bit shocked to see Rusty in because I figured they would put in a
another person from the 1950's or 1960's such as Fireball Roberts. Rusty
deserves his spot though. He is one of the best drivers in his era.

I am glad Cotton Owens is in. He was a great modified driver, great
mechanic, and one of the major owners in the 1960's.

I am bit surprised that media award didn't have Chris Economaki's name
on it or be the first person to get the award.


  97.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.23.2012 - 7:26 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

Should have been Fireball or Raymond Parks instead of Cotton. But
overall I like this class. Herb is insanely underrated. Got lost in
history. Leonard Wood should have been in a while ago. Buck had an
outstanding career. Definitely a HOFer.

And I must say I am very happy Rusty got in on his first time on the
ballot. His stats are impressive. 55 wins and a championship. But
considering he did all of that with his prime being a part of the
toughest era in NASCAR history. Most of his best years, they only raced
29-30 races on driver's tracks while competing against drivers in their
primes like Bill, Darrell, Terry, Mark, Davey, Tim, Geoff, Ricky, Harry,
Ernie, and oh yeah, Dale Earnhardt. Being successful from 1984-1994 was
no joke. His record over that stretch was outstanding, and would have
been much better had the greatest driver ever not been in his way.

The Rusty and Dale battles were the stuff of legend. The closest thing
to Petty and Pearson as far as two guys pushing each other to be the
very best they can be, each pushing the other up a notch. He also was
the only driver who wouldn't be pushed around by Dale under any
circumstance. Dale wrecked Darrell and all he did was whine. He pushed
Bill around constantly and all Bill did was whine. Ricky and Geoff tried
to retaliate but simply weren't in Dale's league to really make an
impact on him (glaring exception, Wilkesboro '89). Rusty had an eye for
an eye policy with Dale, and Dale raced him clean.

But it was their side by side week after week that made NASCAR so fun to
watch. Each refusing to give an inch, all the while smiling, that is
what is was about. I was just a kid for most of the fun, but I remember
it like it was yesterday. It is rivalries like that that are woven into
the history of the sport, and truly makes it what it is. They each had a
huge impact on one another, and understandably Rusty was never the same
after Dale passed. He won on what would have been Dale's 50th birthday
in 2001 and dusted off the old short track magic on a tough hot
afternoon in April 2004, and he left with his dignity in 2005 despite a
winless season but a playoff appearance.

Congrats to Rusty from this Earnhardt fan. You deserve it. Thanks for
the wonderful on track memories even though you scared me as a kid.


  98.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.23.2012 - 7:40 pm
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Alright Penske Motorsports. This August, Bristol Night Race. In honor of
Rusty's HOF induction, the Blue Deuce better be black with a bright gold
#2 and Miller Genuine Draft logos. I'll be disappointed if not.


  99.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.23.2012 - 7:42 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

DSFF, I agree with your idea to go back to the Latford points system, or
something that rewards running up front and going for top positions late
in the race. But I don't like the idea of big point bonuses for winning,
because that then give teams an incentive to cheat, and I'm against
anything that gives teams an incentive to cheat.

You also say that NASCAR needs to find a way to get the cars so they can
race side-by-side by and have a minimal loss of handing due to
aerodynamics. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that's never
happening. Once that genie got out of the bottle, so to speak, it's
never going back in. The closest thing that NASCAR can do is to dirty up
the cars so that drafting comes into play at more tracks (such as
Pocono, Michigan, Auto Club Speedway, and Indy), but aero-push will
always be a problem from here on out.

And as for the media award being named in honor of Ken Squier and Barney
Hall, as well as those two being the first recepients, I have a big
problem with that. Two, as a matter of fact, and their names are Chris
Economaki and Bud Lindemann. If ever there should be media people
honored, and not to slight Squier and Hall, Economaki and Lindemann
should be the first two honored. Economaki helped bring NASCAR to
television in the early 60s as part of the ABC announce team, and
Lindemann brought racing at many of the tracks that were too small for
television coverage, such as Martinsville and Bristol, to the masses for
seven years through his Car and Track series.

Without Economaki and Lindemann, racing might never have become popular
enough with the masses to bring to live television for people like
Squier to become famous with his idea of carrying the Daytona 500 live
start-to-finish. In later years, his Car and Track series started
covering some of the big events, such as the World 600 at Charlotte, the
Winston 500 at Talladega, and even the Daytona 500. In fact, Bud
Lindemann may be the most forgotten person from a media coverage
perspective in the sport's history.


  100.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.23.2012 - 9:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"DSFF, I agree with your idea to go back to the Latford points system,
or something that rewards running up front and going for top positions
late in the race."

Want to stop "points racing"? Get rid of points. Even with the Latford
system (which sucked as much the Chase does) you had points racing (see
Matt Kenseth 2003).

Either make it all about winning (give the big trophy to the guy with
most wins) or some other way too do it.

Points only matter in the NBA, NHL (for playoff berths). NASCAR doesn't
need points. Yes its how they have always done it. But with points, you
have "points racing."

Best average finish would be the cure for that (tie breakers be laps
lead, wins and top 5s. In any order you wish) And you'd have every race
to a chance at the championship (unless hurt which can happen)


  101.   Spen posted:
  05.23.2012 - 11:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Best average finish is basically the system we have. If anything, that
would make point racing worse. The risk of a slip up would make it not
worth the effort to try and get more than a tenth place finish each week.


  102.   Baker posted:
  05.23.2012 - 11:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Here is an idea


If they want a chase and fans don't want points racing have the Top 6
race winners in the last 6 races duke it out points style with a 20
point bonus for wins.


  103.   Red posted:
  05.23.2012 - 11:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

None of the points systems NASCAR has used have been even adequate. The
43-1 and Latford systems are way too conservative, which promotes points
stroking and discourages risk-taking. Then, you have all the kluge
systems from the 60's and 70's, which were either impossible to
understand, or grossly overweighted the big races, or both.

Every other major series in the world has a sensible points system, from
Indy to F1 to V8 Supercars to Moto GP. I don't know why it's so hard for
the suits in Daytona to understand.

As much as I dislike the concept of the chase, at least it forces guys
to race their guts out to win the championship, rather than building a
big cushion and stroking it for second half of the season.

1995 Subaru, I kind of like the idea of no points at all, and just going
by wins. Now, in a series with 43 starters per race, that wouldn't be
very practical, but the concept is intriguing. Wasn't F1 going to use a
wins-only system a couple years back, only to have it shot down at the
last minute? I would've liked to have seen that.

And cjs, I'm sorry, but rewarding wins is not going to dramatically
increase cheating. Teams are already working the gray areas, and
balancing their setups on a knife edge to find any small advantage. But
more importantly, in any sport, the rules should ALWAYS maximize the
incentive to win. Why do you think we see blantant tanking at the end of
NBA seasons? Because losing is rewarded with a better draft pick. I
guess we can just disagree, but I'd rather see a moderate increase in
cheating than endure more conservative points racing.


  104.   LordLowe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 12:16 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

DSFF I have A question to ask of you in that video you recorded at
Darlington was that you saying in a sarcastic tone Yeah Kurt you are a
tough guy. Also out of curiosity how come you are not on your youtube
page more often.


  105.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 12:33 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I just think the Latford system was great. Yeah it mostly rewarded
consistency, due to the additional point differential up top, the person
with the highest average finish would sometimes lose to somebody with
more wins and bonus points. In 1989 Dale had a higher average finish,
but Rusty had one more win and made a concerted effoert all year to pick
up all the bonus points they could. The next year Mark had a better avg
finish, but due to the Richmond penalty, but also due to Dale having 6
more wins and many more bonus points, Earnhardt won. In 1995 Dale had a
better avg finish than Gordon, but got ANNIHILATED in bonus points and
overall dominance. In each case the right guy won.

Besides, from 1975 (first year of the Latford system) through 2003
(final pre cha$e season) it is is hard to argue with many of the champs.
The only "huh?" seasons are '84, '85, '96, and '03. And in each of those
cases, you can easily make the case the right guy won. 1984 (DW too
inconsistent, though should have been higher than 5th, an overall ugly
points race). 1985 (Bill won 11 times to Darrell's 3, but Bill was very
one dimensional and stunk it up on the shorrt tracks despite catching a
break when Nashville was taken off the schedule prior to the season
eliminating 2 road course races). 1996 (the hardest to explain as Terry
had 2 wins to Gordon's 10, but was much much more consistent). 2003
(just 2 bad races in the first 35 when Matt clinched, and a ton of Top
10s plus Newman had by far the worst 8+ win season of the modern era).


  106.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 12:35 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

*eliminating 2 short track races in 1985, Nashville was a short track,
not a road course lol


  107.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.24.2012 - 3:02 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The chase and the points system is definitely the first thing I would
change. I'm disappointed to say that I've never been able to be entirely
captivated or enthralled by a NASCAR points battle. The Chase means that
for the first 26 races, there really isn't much of a battle at all; and
in the last 10, everything is usually completely different anyway. The
Chase might bring more individual drivers into contention, but I'd
prefer to see a much more intense and demanding year long fight, no
matter how many people are involved. Unfortunately, for the first 26
races of the year, there isn't really a points fight at all and that's a
real shame.

On the other hand, this years V8 Supercar title fight is already shaping
up to be one of the greatest in history and this was apparent from the
very first weekend of the season.


  108.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:05 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Red, I never said that awarding a big bonus for winning would increase
cheating. I just said that it would reward cheating more, and I'm
against anything that would reward cheating.

And DSFF, you forgot 1992 in your list of years in which the wrong guy
won the title. In fact, had they not awarded the title at all in 1992,
it might have been more fitting, because nobody wanted to win the title
that year. Alan Kulwicki won the title only because he was the last man
standing. But had there been another race, he would have faltered. In a
year in which Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had the law of averages finally catch
up with him, nobody proved to be a deserving champion. You've talked
about years like 1984 and 1991 not producing very good point battles,
but 1992 might actually have produced the worst point battle of all,
which had a fantastic finish, only because nobody wanted to win the
championship that year.


  109.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 12:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The problem with 1992 was that Davey kept getting hurt in the Spring
(Bristol, Martinsville, The Winston) and then damn near got knocked out
for the season in the Summer at Pocono. So I wouldn't say the 28 didn't
want it (when we say "don't want it", of course they all want it but
sometimes down the stretch the performance falls off or they crumble
under the pressure), it is just that Davey was hurt. A healthy Davey
Allison runs off and hides with that title. And of course Alan and his
team never should have been there in the first place, but overachieved
mightily, and caught the right breaks and won the most improbable
Winston Cup ever. So I guess those are the two reasons I give that
season a pass.

But what doesn't get a pass is the sudden, all at once falling apart of
the Junior Johnson team, as it turns out for good. The performance of
that 11 team down the stretch is one of the most puzzling things I have
ever seen. Considering Tim Brewer got fired after the season due to a
disagreement personally with Junior, I wonder if there was internal
turmoil tearing them apart. Either way, they get no pass.

It is also funny you mention Dale's garbage season. You say it was the
law of averages catching up, I say it was a continuation of their
lackluster 1991 stretch run where their performance really dipped, but
they got lucky cause the 5 team was worse, and them trying too hard to
catch up with the Fords resulting in blown engines (3 in 5 weeks at one
point) and Dale crashing a lot. But overall they barely led any laps
(400 barely in the middle of a bunch of 1000+ seasons) and just didn't
have it. I'd argue the Law of Averages caught them in the 1989 stretch
run, the only time in 8 attempts that Dale was a legitimate championship
factor and didn't win the Cup.

But Rusty had an equally crappy year. I said in my congrats post to him
on getting in to the HOF that him and Dale pushed each other. Fitting
they both stinkbombed that year (I know they were both GM in a Ford
year, but still, 12th and 13th?). Considering they finished 1-2 and 1-3
the next two seasons says a lot. It seems like from 1988 onwards, they
were right together almost every year performance wise. They both lost
their dominance in 1995, the start of the aero era. Had strong but
inconsistent (for different reasons) 1996 seasons, had consistent but
not very strong 1997 seasons, both stinkbombed 1998, both had good
moments, but overall mediocre 1999 seasons, and both showed their old
form in the 2000 season, although in different ways. Dale returned to
the title chase and weekly Top 5 runs while Rusty won a ton of poles,
led a ton of laps, and won quite a few races. Then of course Dale passed
in 2001 and the was pretty much the end of Rusty. Without his good buddy
and fierce competitor to push him, it just wasn't the same. I think
something similar would have happened to Dale had it been Rusty. They
were my generation's Pearson and Petty.


  110.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 12:30 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

LordLowe, I did answer on YouTube. That wasn't me, I say nothing in that
video, but I did admit to thinking it lol. I'm not that active cause I
just opened that account when I got a gmail address so I could download
Android apps. I can't do splits like cjs, so you don't see much from me
lol.


  111.   LordLowe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 1:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I would like to see A CJS & Carl Edwards Backflip Challenge


  112.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 1:36 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I wish I could do them, LordLowe, but I was told to stop my workouts at
the field I visit (though I might resume them in the near future), where
I was working up to it. And seeing me next to guy like Edawrds would be
like having Mr. Universe next to a blob, or a tub of goo, as David
Letterman once described ex-MLB pitcher Terry Forster.

And I agree DSFF, a healthy Davey Allison clinches at Phoenix, but even
he and his team fell apart when they reclaimed the point lead entering
the final race at Atlanta. And curiously, while Bill Elliott was a great
driver in the clutch in the big races, he fell apart in much the same
way in his championship battles. What happened to Elliott in 1992 was
exactly the same thing that happened to him in 1985, so Elliott may not
have been cut out for championship battles, so Elliott himself might
have been a big part of the problem. Remember that Elliott was
historically terrible at short tracks (though he did win at Richmond in
the spring in 1992), and that's where he lost much of his lead in 1992.


  113.   Eric posted:
  05.24.2012 - 1:48 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

DaleSrFanForever,

I don't know if you realize it, but Cotton Owens health is failing. It
might play a part why he's part of the 2013 NASCAR Hall of Fame class
despite the voters claimed it had no part on why he got in.


  114.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.24.2012 - 4:54 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Every other major series in the world has a sensible points system,
from Indy to F1 to V8 Supercars to Moto GP. I don't know why it's so
hard for the suits in Daytona to understand."

Me and Spen basically went at this for awhile. An F1 points system
doesn't work in NASCAR. You should watch the TMMC series on youtube
because it basically states how it doesn't work (see Alexis Rainsford
last year).

"Best average finish is basically the system we have. If anything, that
would make point racing worse. The risk of a slip up would make it not
worth the effort to try and get more than a tenth place finish each week."

Best average finish wouldn't deal with points, it deal with the finish
you get on track that race, however the tiebreakers would be laps lead,
wins and top 5 finishes. So you'll get a incentive for running up front.

Well i guess you'll have to make it all about winning then.

Me and Red agreed on something, i think the world is coming to an end. :-P


  115.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 5:34 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

You nailed it. Bill's shortcomings on short tracks are what submarined
his title hopes. His prime conincided with the days when they would run
8 short track races per year in a 28-29 race schedule. Had he come along
today with 6 short track races in 36 events, and a ton of horsepower
cookie cutter tracks, he may have won 3 or 4 titles.


  116.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 6:02 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

1995 Subaru WRX STi, I disagree that it should be ALL about winning in
terms of championships. After all, if that were the case, you could have
a "champion" that finishes less than half the races but wins 10 every
year. And cheating would be at an all-time high if you did that, so that
would be a horrible idea.

And speaking of cheating, I think the reason Chad Knaus cheats so much
is that he feels that's the only way to get an advantage on the other
Hendrick cars. He knows the other Hendrick crew chiefs won't push the
issue, so Knaus fudges the rulebook at times, and flat-out cheats on
other occasions to get an edge on the oher Hendrick cars, espcially when
Hendrick goes into "Chase mode", which is to pool everything they've got
into the #48 car, even if there are other Hendrick cars in the Chase.
Mark Martin was the last Hendrick driver other than Johnson to win a
race in the Chase, and that was the 2009 Chase opener, and prior to
that, you have to go back to 2007 to find the last time a Hendrick
driver other than Johnson won in the Chase (Jeff Gordon's back-to-back
wins at Talladega and Charlotte).


  117.   Spen posted:
  05.24.2012 - 6:17 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

DSFF: "Yet another case of recycling drivers. I hate that. Give somebody
like Justin Allgaier or Trevor Bayne a shot. We have to get this talent
pipeline moving again."

Agreed, but it's not going to happen. Allgaier will never become a Cup
driver. Actually, he probably won't even be a competitive Nationwide
driver after this year. Buescher and Piquet will likely be moving up,
and unless he can stay on as Kasey Kahne's seat warmer, Justin will be
on the way out. And unless he finds a good truck ride (might I suggest
KBM?), his career will go the way of Erik Darnell's. Justin's main
problem is his height. Remember thirty years ago when J.D. Stacy fired
Mark Martin because he was "too short to be a Cup driver"? Stacy didn't
know too much about NASCAR, but he did think like a businessman. And a
businessman knows that people won't buy stuff from a short guy. They're
creepy and unnatural. (I know, I'm 5'1.) And nowadays, when the real
power is in the people who dish out sponsorship dollars, they wouldn't
give a guy like Justin a second thought.

Bayne is also suffering the effects of the corporate hive mind. No one
as blatently Christian as Trevor can be sponsored by any sane company,
as you'd run the risk of alienating 20% of your potential buyers. Not a
good business move.

Then there's Stenhouse. Cjs likes to blame his sponsorship woes on the
Fenway Group, and there's probably some truth to that (in particular,
their asking price for sponsorship is way, *way* too high for the
drivers they're selling.), but a larger problem for him is his
reputation. From 2008-2010, he was probably better known as "Wrecky
Stenhouse" or variations thereof. No matter how much he does on track to
change that, the Internet's image of him is as a wrecking ball. Until he
wins a Cup race, that's not going to change. And his odds of doing that
don't look too good without a sponsor, which he's unlikely to get, since
Internet opinion matters far too much these days. (His height doesn't
help matters.)

Basically, we're in a catch-22 right now. You can't risk moving a driver
up to Cup, since if they wreck once or twice, the Internet will have a
lot of 'lols' about them, and they'll be considered a complete joke, and
unsponsorable. (Unless your name is Danica, but that's another issue.)
You really have no choice but to keep recycling drivers who are just
good enough to win an occasional race, and maybe make the Chase, since
at least they won't make complete fools of themselves, and do an
adaquate job of selling the products. If Jeff Gordon had been born in
1991, and followed the same career path he had back then, he'd never
become a Cup driver. He wrecked a ton of cars when he was first starting
out, and the Internet would view him as the second coming of Buckshot
Jones. Would you buy anything from Buckshot Jones? I doubt it. So DuPont
would never have come on board to support a 'wrecker', and Gordon would
spend his career as a start-and-parker, if they weren't too scared that
he'd crash out in qualifying. It's a sorry state, but it's what we've got.

Subaru: "see Alexis Rainsford last year" Alexis was probably the most
egregious example, but Devereux's championship proves the point as well.
Under the Latford system, his season would have put him fifth in points.
He averaged 114 ponts per race. That's less points then you get for
finishing 16th. Really we might as well have handed the title to Alexis,
as she was the only one who managed to look competent on a semi-regular
basis. (She was averaging 141 points per race. Still not fantastic, but
worlds better than Devereux.)


  118.   18fan posted:
  05.24.2012 - 6:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

DSFF, I wouldn't exactly say that Rusty stinkbombed 1998. He finished
4th in points that year and was solid throughout the year. However, they
did fade in the second half of the year, but not that badly. I think
what happened that year was that Penske figured out the Taurus the best
in the beginning of the season and put consistent runs together. Early
in the season Burton, Martin, and Jarrett, the other top Ford drivers,
had some runs where they showed strength but others where they were just
ordinary, but Rusty and Mayfield were strong week in and week out for
the first 15 or so races. Once the Roush cars of Burton and Martin and
the Yates team with Jarrett found consistency they were better than the
#2 team, plus with the out of this world performance by the 24
team(another team that had signs of strength but some runs where they
were out to lunch early in the season) and the improvement of JGR with
Bobby Labonte and the beginning of Earnhardt's resurgence with Kevin
Hamlin as his crew chief, those teams(the #3, #6, #18, #24, #88, and #99
teams) started to leave the Penske cars behind a little bit. But Rusty
had a very solid year that year, definitely an improvement over 1997.


  119.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 7:17 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Alright, ESPN just crapped on Jeff Gordon therefore I must make a rare
defense for him. Since it is May 24 they did a "Top 10 #24s" list. They
had Jeff 5th. FIFTH! First off, they had the fraking 24 second shot
clock as #1. Yes it saved basketball, but it isn't really a #24. And it
isn't an athlete. And it isn't even a real thing. Obviously Willie Mays
is a clear #1 on this list (unless you are ESPN and you put a freaking
countdown machine ahead of him. They had the Say Hey Kid as #2.
Somewhere the ghost of the Polo Grounds just threw up. Then they had
Kobe Bryant as #3. He spent most of his career wearing #8. He only
became #24 a few years ago to reinven his image after his rape trial and
running Shaq and Phil out of LA. Then they had Rickey Henderson #4.
Although the most entertaining #24 ever ("I am the greatest of all time"
I still crack up everytime I watch that) and you could easily have a Top
24 funniest Rickey Henderson stories countdown, and his basestealing was
unparalleled which distracted the hell out of opposing pitchers when he
got on base, but he didn't dominate his era the way Gordon has. He
wasn't even the best player on his own teams that won World Series in
Toronto (Joe Carter was the best player on those teams) and Oakland
(steroids was the key to their success).

In conclusion, ESPN is dumb as shit. Jeff should have been second to Mays.

18Fan, everyone except Gordon and Mark officially stinkbombed '98. Back
me up cjs.


  120.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.24.2012 - 8:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

ESPN had the top 10 playoff duels and they had CarlvsTony in #6 or 7.
Since when does a sport count a tied for the last of anything?
(offically they tied in points). And now they dis-respect Jeff Gordon.
Brian, do us all a favor, DO NOT RESIGN WITH
ESPN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or your a dumbshit.

Also, Rusty Wallace (an ESPN analyst) got inducted into the HOF and DID
NOT GET ONE SINGLE MENTION on SC, ATH (Anti-NASCAR show), PTI or any
other show. *except Mike and Mike In The Morning, one of the few ESPN
shows that actually has NASCAR people on it and the one i actually like*

Also they screwed Blake Koch outta sponsership.

ESPN=****


  121.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 9:35 pm
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SmokeFan, Brian is a dumbshit. Luckily it looks like ESPN wants a
significant reduction in broadcasting fees in the future, and Brian is
all about the bottom line, so we may catch a break with ESPN.


  122.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.24.2012 - 9:59 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"SmokeFan, Brian is a dumbshit. Luckily it looks like ESPN wants a
significant reduction in broadcasting fees in the future, and Brian is
all about the bottom line, so we may catch a break with ESPN."

NASCAR is going to have to take a discount when the re-do the TV deals.
FOX and TNT wil play the game, cuz atleast they do a decent job at
boardcasting races and covering them. ESPN could honestly could careless
about NASCAR.

So i hope that Brian does kick ESPN to the curb, would be nice.


  123.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:46 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well DSFF, actually, Dale Jarrett did not have a bad 1998, either,
though it was not up to his 1997 season. One thing that held Jarrett
back in '98 was having Kenny Irwin, Jr. as a teammate, so he really
didn't get any help from his team car. Then there was the worst tactical
decision ever made, which came in the Brickyard 400 that year, which was
made by Jarrett's crew chief, Todd Parrott. But all things considered,
Jarrett did not have a bad season in 1998. As for Rusty Wallace in 1998,
most of the time, his was not even the best Penske car, as Jeremy
Mayfield frequently outran him, and scored the only win Penske had in a
full-distance race, at Pocono in June. But when just two drivers score
more than half the season's wins between them, there's not much left or
everyone else.

And as for the #24 debate, remember that Rickey Henderson actually wore
#35 in his first few years in Oakland (including when he set the
single-season stolen base record in 1982), though he's best known as
having wore #24.

And 1995 Subaru WRX STi, ESPN may not be very good covering NASCAR,
especially with their announcers, but FOX is much, much worse. TNT is
the only enterprise doing NASCAR with a competent team, and their lead
announcer is no good, either.

And Spen, you disagree with me that Stenhouse can't find sponsorship
because of the Fenway Sports Group. The fact is that NONE of Roush's
drivers, except Greg Biffle, can find adequate sponsorship, and that
includes Carl Edwards and Matt Kenseth, who are also struggling for
sponsorship. It's not just Stenhouse and Bayne. Just look at all three
of their cars in the Cup race this weekend and you'll see what I mean.
And yes, I believe the Red Sox are behind Roush not being able to fins
any sponsors. They don't want any sponsors, who they view as potential
competitors, on any of Roush's cars. After all, the Red Sox control the
money for Roush's NASCAR operation. Yet, with seven start-and-park cars
making the 600 (it's seven with David Reutimann not making it), you
would think that Roush could enter the #6 car for a big race like this
and put Stenhouse in it.


  124.   Red posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:50 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I agree. ESPN is by far the worst of the three networks currently
covering NASCAR, and I'd be thrilled to see them go. Listening to the
regular SportsCenter anchors talk NASCAR is just painful; they don't
know jack about racing, and they obviously don't care. You can almost
feel the "Oh man, not another NASCAR segment" tension from Stuart Scott
and friends.

TNT has the best coverage by far, IMO. Wally and Kyle are knowledgable
and self-effacing without being corny and annoying like DW. They also
use less gimmicks and predetermined storylines, and actually cover the
damn race. FOX is better than ESPN, but still sub-par. If they'd get rid
of the worthless Hollywood Hotel and Visa RaceBreaks, it might be a
decent broadcast. Then again, two Waltrip brothers are hard to overcome.
I swear, if DW yells "Boogity Boogity Boogity Boys...And Danica!" one
more time, I'm going to throw a brick through my TV screen.

1995 Subaru, that's TWO things we agree on in one thread. The world
really is coming to an end :)


  125.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 1:17 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Again, I disagree that FOX is better than ESPN. FOX might be better at
covering the sport than ESPN is, but ESPN is better at covering the
race, which unfortunately isn't saying much. At least the start is
watchable, and most of the race is, too. I'd say that 75% of the FOX
broadcast is unwatchable, unless you're a diehard fan. TNT covers the
races like they were covered in the sport's peak years (the late 80s
through the 90s). But their part of the season lasts just six races and
is just a fill-in between FOX and ESPN, which is a shame. Now if they
could only get a good lap-by-lap broadcaster in there, they could give
the old broadcasts from the 70s through the 90s a run for the money.


  126.   Spen posted:
  05.25.2012 - 2:26 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Matt's got his own image issues. He's been viewed as a boring robot for
forever (they even made a commercial where it was shown that he really
*is* a robot), and for the most part, robots don't make good
spokespeople. It's hard to really sell Matt.

Carl's issues I will blame on both Roush and Fenway. Didn't he say that
they were paid something like 30 million dollars to keep him sponsored
last year? Most teams don't charge much more than 15 or twenty mill. And
for a driver who's won a grand total of three races in the last three
and a half years, that's *waaaay* too much.


  127.   Spen posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:40 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Continuing on this line of thought, I don't think you're view of the
Fenway Group's motives are exactly accurate. If they didn't want any
sponsors, there wouldn't be a single logo on any one of their cars,
period. Rather, I believe that, like any corporation, their main motive
is simple: Money, acquisition of. Which leads us to their biggest
problem. According to the Forbes report, Hendrick Motorsports is worth
$350 million. Roush/Fenway racing is worth $185 million. Closing that
gap (and ultimatly surpassing Hendrick) is their primary objective. One
of the ways of doing that is by charging an exorbitant sum of money for
sponsorship. It doesn't always pay off, but it's not like they've been
totally unsucessful at it. After all, they did manage to con UPS into
sponsoring the David Ragan Mediocrity Show for three years. That's a
pretty big salesmanship accomplishment, if I do say so myself. (Granted,
UPS' decision likely had more to do with Ragan's photogenic-ness
compared to Reutimann's.) Their overall philosophy seems to be to try to
land the biggest deals possible, and let the smaller opportunities slip
away. It's probably not the smartest way of going about things, but it's
what they go with.


  128.   Ed posted:
  12.14.2012 - 3:09 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Just give Danica the 2013 Fan Vote already. Jr. won at Michigan in June
to lock himself in


  129.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.15.2013 - 12:32 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I just don't get the idea behind removing two of three dates from a
track that got 140,000, 132,000, and 105,000 to show up to their races
last year. Get over the fact that supply and demand is more important
than what you think is a 'good racetrack', and there are many other
tracks with 2 dates that are far more deserving of losing dates.


  130.   Premium Doesn't Suck 62 66 94 98 posted:
  11.11.2015 - 11:51 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

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