|| *Comments on the 1951 unnamed race (1951-41):* View the most recent comment <#33> | Post a comment <#post> Tweet 1. RaceFanX posted: 10.31.2009 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Second of two Cup races at Lakeview Speedway, both in 1951 Also the third and final Cup win for Frank Mundy 2. ii posted: 11.14.2009 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only race won by a Studebaker 3. Spen posted: 09.10.2011 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Continuing my project of "Latfordizing" NASCAR history, here's how the 1951 season would have looked under the normal point system. 1. Fonty Flock 4994 2. Herb Thomas 4744 (-250) 3. Tim Flock 4534 (-460) 4. Lee Petty 4321 (-673) 5. Frank Mundy 3103 (-1891) 6. Lloyd Moore 2444 (-2550) 7. Bob Flock 2184 (-2810) 8. Donald Thomas 2062 (-2932) (Marshall Teague would be here, with 2008 points. Since he's not in the final standings, we can presume he was stripped of all his points.) 9. Bill Blair 1943 (-3051) 10. Jim Paschal 1917 (-3077) 11. Jim Fiebelkorn 1896 12. Dick Rathman 1755 13. Jimmie Lewallen 1675 14. Bill Snowden 1656 15. Lou Figaro 1566 (Curtis Turner isn't in the final standings either. He would have had 1476 points.) 16. Erick Erickson 1394 17. Billy Carden 1337 18. Buck Baker 1290 19. Joe Eubanks 1276 20. Don Bailey 1246 21. Gober Sosebee 1198 22. Bill Rexford 1164 23. Jesse James Taylor 1139 24. Jimmy Florian 1131 (Weldon Adams is also not listed. He'd have 1113.) 25. George Seeger 1107 26. Dell Pearson 1034 27. Buddy Shuman 1021 (Dick Linder is in the same boat. 1005 would have been his point total.) (Leonard Tippett too. 959. 28. Pappy Hough 939 29. Fireball Roberts 929 30. Billy Myers 927 31. Bub King 911 32. Dick Meyer 870 (Walt Sprague seems to lack points too. He'd have had 854.) 33. Bud Riley 831 34. Danny Weinberg 808 35. Jimmy Ayers 805 36. Quinton Daniels 801 (Don Eggert. 781) 37. Fred Steinbroner 779 38. Bill Miller 753 39. John McGinley 730 (If you give him points for his disqualified race, Jim Delaney would be here with 729 points. Otherwise, he's got 638, and is outside the top fifty.) 40. Oda Greene 727 41. Coleman Lawrence 722 42. Charles Gattalia 721 43. Ewell Weddle 713 44. Neil Cole 710 45. Lloyd Dane 705 46. Jack Smith 703 47. Johnny Mantz 697 48. Cotten Owens 663 49. Chuck Meekins 661 50. Bud Farrell 641 Whew, that was a good bit of work. 1951 had the highest number of total drivers in any year (375/6 depending on your views on Jim Harris's existence.), and also had an average of 31.3 cars in every race, the highest average until 1970. Now to see if I can keep doing this for the next 23 years. 4. Spen posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bill Blair's point total should have been 2043. 5. kup posted: 05.24.2012 - 1:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS - Universal Points System - after all races of 1951 Cup Points for a driver = His Distance /devided/ His Average Finish Dis/AvFn = Driver = KM-Miles / AV-FN 220 Fonty Flock 2068 / 9,4 216 Tim Flock 1661 / 7,7 137 Herb Thomas 1577 / 11,5 105 Marshall Teague 1417 / 13,5 97 Lee Petty 1059 / 10,9 6. Graham Clayton posted: 10.26.2013 - 6:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two Packards finish in the Top 5. 7. 1995z71 posted: 03.29.2014 - 4:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2. ii posted: 11.14.2009 - 10:25 am Only race won by a Studebaker Wrong, Studebaker has 3 wins in NASCAR including one earlier in 1951 with Frank Mundy. 8. Anonymous posted: 10.11.2014 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bob Flock flipped out of the track in this race. He had to be extracted from his car, but he walked away. A few weeks later after continued pain, he found out that this accident broke his neck. 9. Anonymous posted: 12.01.2014 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hank Lee and Ted Tedrow crashed. 10. Anonymous posted: 01.16.2015 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) for Spen, for 1951 NASCAR didnt award points, the season champion was who earned the most money for the year. for the webmaster can we please put the track back to the correct name of Lakeview Speedway it became New Mobile Speedway years later after the races were ran 11. wildbillholland@yahoo.com posted: 01.27.2015 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Iwould be interested to know where in mobile lakeview speedway was? 12. Dan Jackett posted: 05.09.2015 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Under the elimination format adopted in 2014, the 4 drivers who would had raced for the Championship would have been Fonty Flock, Herb Thomas, Tim Flock, and Lee Petty...Tim Flock's 2nd place finish to brother Fonty's 4th would have made Tim the champion 13. Aldo posted: 08.13.2015 - 7:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does someone know where the track was? There's a Lakeview Drive near a little lake in Mobile. Was that the place of the track? 14. Aldo posted: 08.13.2015 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From satellite view, it seems to be round a little lake just the cross between Lott Road and James Evans Drive, in Eight Mile neighborhood. 15. Breaker posted: 05.14.2016 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They actually did award points, but the number of points per race were dependent on the total purse. If you look at the winnings you'll see that many drivers are out of order if it had been based on winnings alone. From what I've researched, the points were basically 10 points for 1st, 9 for 2nd, etc, and then that point total multiplied by (Total purse * 0.005). This doesn't seem to be exact, but it's pretty close. For an average race, it would basically end up being 200-180-160-140 for each position. Higher purse races like Detroit or the Southern 500 awarded a bit more points. Once you get outside the top 10 it started getting a little muddy trying to determine the points. It looks like finishing outside the top 15 rarely, if ever, awarded any points. 16. kup posted: 01.12.2018 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) TTSS*: Twin-Tandem Scoring System. TTSS - 1951 NASCAR "Cup" official: 4208.45 Herb Thomas 4062.25 Fonty Flock TTSS - 1951 NASCAR "Cup" UPS*: UPS: see above - Upoints are (Distance /to/ Aver.finish) 221 Fonty Flock 2068 / 9.35 215 Tim Flock 1661 / 7.73 And TTSS champions after 3 years: 1949-1951: NASCAR "Cup" official: Red Byron 1: '49. Lee Petty 1: '49. Bill Rexford 1: '50. Fireball Roberts 1: '50. Herb Thomas 1: '51. Fonty Flock 1: '51. NASCAR "Cup" UPS: Lee Petty 2: '49, '50. Tim Flock 2: '50, '51. Bill Blair 1: '49. Fonty Flock 1: '51. *TTSS* Every race can have 2 winners, awarded equal points except bonuses. Then equal points goes for every next pair of cars/drivers: 3+4, 5+6, etc. This TTSS adds to races not only feud, but also a co-operation. Every year/season can have 2 "gold" champions, then 2 "silver", 2 "bronze", etc. The basic idea is to compare current race/year system (aka "deficit") with TTSS (aka "plentiness"). No need to have 3 (triple) or more winners, as 2 is just oke to compare the root. 17. Brandon posted: 01.19.2018 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) A total of 19 manufacturers raced in the 41 races in 1951, here is how many races each showed up to. Austin: 1 Buick: 16 Cadillac: 7 Chevrolet: 7 Chrysler: 7 Dodge: 5 Ford: 41 Frazer: 1 Henry J: 23 Hudson: 39 Kaiser: 9 Lincoln: 14 Mercury: 25 Nash: 23 Oldsmobile: 41 Packard: 5 Plymouth: 41 Pontiac: 14 Studebaker: 36 18. Eric posted: 10.01.2019 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And so ends the bloodbath that was the 1951 cup series season. Over the season, a confirmed 39 cars went upside down throughout the year. To put that in perspective, the only year that remotely touches that feat is 1956, with a confirmed 28 flips, and 1952, with a confirmed 23. Fittingly enough, the season-ending race here is marred by a grinding flip that breaks Bob Flock's neck. 19. Eric posted: 10.01.2019 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention, the flips that occurred in the 1951 season make up a pretty phenomenal 9.6% of every confirmed flip that has happened in the top three national series. 20. BOBO83329521 posted: 05.07.2020 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Continuing my project of running the old NASCAR records through a 2012-like points system, here is how the 1951 season would have ended (NOTE not including any penalties incurred) 1. Fonty Flock 2594 pts. 2. Herb Thomas -18 3. Lee Petty -198 4. Tim Flock -246 5. Frank Mundy -805 6. Lloyd Moore -1099 7. Bob Flock -1319 8. Bill Blair -1324 9. Donald Thomas -1345 10. Jim Fiebelkorn -1392 11. Jim Paschal -1424 12. Marshall Teague -1462 13. Dick Rathman -1541 14. Bill Snowden -1570 15. Lou Figaro -1571 16. Jimmie Lewallen -1618 17. Curtis Turner -1703 18/ Erick Erickson -1708 19. Billy Carden -1754 20. Joe Eubanks -1769 21. Buck Baker -1773 22. Don Bailey -1806 23. Bill Rexford -1821 24. Gober Sosebee -1838 25. Weldon Adams -1839 26. George Seeger -1851 27. Jesse James Taylor -1855 28. Jimmy Florian -1878 29. Dick Linder -1883 30. Walt Sprague -1906 I count 377 drivers who competed in this season. Anyone know what @3 is referring to about "depending on your views of Jim Harris's existence?" Was Harris a possible alias or a fake record or why would there be doubt about his exisence? I don't have a Jim Harris in my record of 1951 21. TTaylor944 posted: 05.07.2020 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Harris finished 10th at Columbia in 1951 from a few of the postings I've found. I'm not sure what the "if he exists" is about. 22. TTaylor944 posted: 05.07.2020 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) And a quick jump over to the Columbia race thread shows that 10th place was Jim Ayers. That looks like a pretty weak argument for changing it from Harris to Ayers given that there are pages that list Harris's name, but whatever. 23. JSPorts posted: 05.07.2020 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't find any record of Jim Harris starting a NASCAR race. On the other hand, Jimmy Ayers had 20 NASCAR starts between 1950 & 1955. Ayers seems more likely to me. 24. possum posted: 05.07.2020 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @20 - when Spen posted, this site showed "Jim Harris" as finishing 10th at Columbia. Spen thought that was a mistake for Jimmy Ayers, and apparently at some point between 2011 and today the page has been corrected. 25. Spen posted: 05.08.2020 - 10:24 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) @20: What Possum said. Also, several races have added starters that weren't in the site's older records (for example, Herb Thomas used to be listed as having 34 starts instead of 35), so that's why the current driver listing disagrees with my total from nine years ago. 26. TTaylor944 posted: 05.08.2020 - 11:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On further review it's not too terribly difficult to find the error between Harris/Ayers. Ironically, the original post I found that led me to believe Harris could be a real person is the same one that made me realize it was an error, but did require scrolling through comments and pages to find the correct answer. While the Columbia race page has been corrected, my comment regarding "weak reasoning" is that nobody actually explained over there why it was wrong to list Jim Harris, and the incorrect information was likely gathered from a man who claimed to have attended every race at Columbia. Such is trying to create a database of races from 70 years ago. 27. thog posted: 06.17.2020 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) @18 - As a matter of fact, there's now an unfathomable 41 flips confirmed to have happened during the 1951 season. There is undoubtedly more that happened during the season, but the chance of finding every flip in 1951 is rather low due to a lot of missing information still unavailable. Charlotte I - Cliff Woodson, Lloyd Dennis, Bill Holland Gardena I - Fred Bince Phoenix - Allen Heath, Clarence Auckley, Chuck Meekins, Al King Martinsville I - Jim Fiebelkorn, Earl Moss, Marshall Teague, Bob Flock Canfield - Bill Rexford, Mike Klapak Columbus - Tommy Wells Grand Rapids - Bob Greer Pittsburgh - Ralph Liguori (TWICE!), Sam Thompson Altamont - Victor Brunzell Detroit - Lee Petty, Jack Smith, Bob Greer, Walt Flanders Morristown - Fonty Flock Darlington - Lee Connell, Johnny Yountz Macon - Johnny Thompson Langhorne - Dawson Lechlider, Bill Remaly Charlotte II - Bill Miller Dayton II - Jim Delaney Oakland - Bill Amberg North Wilkesboro II - Bob Walters, Leonard Tippett, Jack Wade Hanford - Herb Thomas Atlanta - Pete Page, Jesse James Taylor Gardena III - Tommy Melvin Mobile II - Bob Flock 28. Joshua posted: 01.09.2021 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Herb Thomas started alongside Frank Mundy in 2nd, and Bob Flock in #7 started 3rd. And Lloyd Moore started 18th, and the #72 started 17th, whoever that was. This was according to the footage of this race. 29. thog posted: 01.09.2021 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @28 there's a video of this race? 30. JSPorts posted: 01.09.2021 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can you post a link to it? 31. Mile501 posted: 01.09.2021 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @28 - Knowing there was a #72 in this race, it may have been the car driven by Harold Mays, though I have no conclusive proof of that. As a car owner, Mays regularly used the #72 earlier in the 1951 season. 32. QFH posted: 04.03.2021 - 7:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a response to something Spen said in @3 about Marshall Teague being stripped of his points, apparently he was suspended by NASCAR for running a race in Mexico. He finished 6th there. 33. Spen posted: 04.03.2021 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: