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  *Comments on the 2009 NASCAR Banking 500 Only From Bank of America:*
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  1.   Anonymous posted:
  10.18.2009 - 9:06 am
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I didn't see Carl Edwards being this off in a long time before his
engine problems.

Joey Logano gets his best finish of the year outside of New Hampshire
Motor Speedway.

The race for the chase is almost over as a points battle.


  2.   Anonymous posted:
  10.18.2009 - 9:52 am
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Jimmie Johnson is being overrated by the media right now although he is
tied with Buck Baker in Wins with 46.

Jimmie is one his way being a 4 time cup champion according to the
chase. While Jimmie has some talent some stats with him stick out with him.

Since the Chase format get started in 2004, here is Jimmie's points
stands and points out before the chase begins each year and his finish
if it went by the old points system.

2004 - 2nd place and 60 points away from Jeff Gordon before the chase.
Jimmie would finish 49 points behind Jeff Gordon if the old points
system was used the whole season.
2005 - 4th place and 316 points away from Tony Stewart. Jimmie Johnson
would finish 3rd in points and be 428 points behind Tony Stewart if the
old points system was used for the whole season.
2006 - 2nd place and 57 points away from Matt Kenseth. Jimmie Johnson
would win the Championship over Matt Kenseth by 4 points if the old
points system was used for the whole season.
2007 - 4th place and 410 points away from Jeff Gordon before the chase.
Jimmie Johnson would finish 2nd and 353 points away from Jeff Gordon if
the old points system was used for the whole season.
2008 - 3rd place and 302 points away from Kyle Busch before the chase.
Jimmie Johnson would finish 2nd and 16 points away from Carl Edwards if
the old points system was used for the whole season.
2009 - Tony Stewart lead Jimmie Johnson by 272 points and Jimmie would
be in 3rd place before the chase. Right now, the chase makes points lead
worse than it would without.

Based on these Facts Jimmie would only be 1 time Cup Champion without
the Chase coming into 2009. Since 2004, Jimmie won 40 times, but 17 of
them happened in the last 10 races in the year. From a percentage stand
point standpoint in wins, Jimmie's winning percentage is way better
after the first 26 races of the year with there being a 23.2 difference.

This is caused by the following:

1.) The chase races favor Jimmie Johnson
2.) The 48 team experiments before the chase. This has been the case in
the past.
3.) Chad Knaus got caught cheating in 2007. The 48 team wasn't as good
without him in 2007.
4.) Some of the race tracks in the first 26 races don't favor Jimmie.


  3.   Clayton posted:
  10.18.2009 - 10:12 am
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If we had the old systems drivers and crew chiefs would play their
stratagies much differently. That's what makes Johnson and Knaus so
good. They play the stratagy perfect. Other teams could do it, but
Johnson and Knaus still can't be beat.

I am not a Jimmie Johnson fan, but nothing can be taken away from him.


  4.   Bronco posted:
  10.18.2009 - 10:14 am
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What a heartbreak for Denny Hamlin. Leads a bunch of laps, only to have
the engine expire on him. Poor Carl Edwards also lost an engine, and
Dale Jr, where do I begin with him? He has transmission issues before
the race even reaches halfway and finishes 30 laps down. Still think his
cars are built to the standard as his other teammates? My ass. JPM's top
5 streak comes to an end because of the damage from the restart.

Jimmie Johnson's pole speed shattered the previous record for fastest
pole speed in a Cot previously held by Dale Jr at the 2008 spring Texas
event.

Bad trumps Good with Megatron Jeff Gordon beating Optimus Prime Ryan Newman.

Terry Labonte leads for the first time since Sonoma in 2006. And Jamie
McMurray gets my vote for having the most awkward sponsor name ever.

Good run for Casey Mears who always seems to step it up at the end of
the season after he's already lost his ride.


  5.   RR posted:
  10.18.2009 - 10:49 am
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*yawn*

At least there's college football.


  6.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.18.2009 - 11:00 am
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What the hell was Brian Pattie thinking? Once JPM got lapped due to the
damage, and it was apparent he couldn't hang on due to the aero, they
were about 2/3 of the way through a fuel run. He should have just pitted
him then, taken the extra time to put the patch on, and waited for the
leaders to cycle through their pit stops. Then, once his patch blew off,
he would only be one lap down and could compete for the lucky dog, which
he would probably get because he had another Top 5 car. But instead
Pattie leaves him out there, lets him spin out and blow his tires, THEN
TELLS HIM TO GO AROUND THE TRACK!!! Of course his tires blew out and did
worse damage. Brian Pattie can set up a car, but he can't make good pit
decisions.

Tough break for Kasey Kahne. He was running away with it, but wasn't
good on the short run, and those last cautions killed him. Plus they
overadjusted on the last stop. At least the cautions were legitimate
this time. Lap 190: THAT is what a debris caution should be. When an
entire fender is laying on the track. Then two people blew up and David
Stremme did what David Stremme does. Roger, how in the hell did you
think it was a good idea to hire him?

Speaking of the Captain's drivers, will Sam Hornish ever get it? How
many times has he spun out, hit the wall, or spun out and hit the wall
this year without any help. Dude (as Kurt Busch so lovingly called Roger
once), send him back to Indy cars.

Dale Jr breaks a transmission, has to go to the garage to replace it,
and that still only cost him about 5 positions in the final order. Carl
Edwards blows an engine, and probably only got cost 3 postions. And
Brian Vickers is doing his best Jeremy Mayfield impersonation. Make the
Cha$e with a dramatic summer surge, get an emotional win, shock everyone
at Richmond (he didn't win like Mayfield, but who expected him to do as
well as he did), then totally disappear. They haven't even been fast at
tracks they normally run fast at, despite their problems.

As far as the championship, in the words of Don Meredith: "Turn the
lights out, the party's over."


  7.   18fan posted:
  10.18.2009 - 12:31 pm
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The end proved that clean air usually means more than a fast car in the
CoT. Kasey Kahne has an eight second second lead and is pulling away
three tenths a lap, then Jimmie gets out front, and the same thing happens.

Joey Logano's first legitimate top 5 in a full length race

Denny Hamlin's championship chances are over, now he's racing Carl
Edwards for the final position on stage at the banquet.

Kyle comes back after spinning while running fifth to finish eighth.

This race was kind of like Atlanta with a bunch of drivers leading over
40 laps.

Matt Kenseth's best finish and best race from start to finish since race
2 at California.

Unfortunately, I think only a handful of drivers will be contenders at
Martinsville; Jimmie, Jeff, Denny, Tony, and maybe Mark.


  8.   Bronco posted:
  10.18.2009 - 1:04 pm
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"And Brian Vickers is doing his best Jeremy Mayfield impersonation. Make
the Cha$e with a dramatic summer surge, get an emotional win, shock
everyone at Richmond (he didn't win like Mayfield, but who expected him
to do as well as he did), then totally disappear. They haven't even been
fast at tracks they normally run fast at, despite their problems."

I completely agree. Heck he'd be down to 16th in points over the last 5
races if the dumb cha$e didnt exist. That's yet another problem I have
with the cha$e. Guys who get in but do poorly finish ahead of where they
deserve, and guys who don't get in but kick butt in the final 10 races
have to fight for 11th or 13th (McMurray in 2004, Stewart in 2006). I
can't believe Vickers wasn't a top 5 car at Charlotte of all the places.

I don't think Hornish will ever get it. JPM was a much better driver at
this point last year. He needs to go to a different series because I
don't ever see him winning a race. I know he won the Showdown, but then
look who he was racing against.

Casey Mears is now the 2nd best car out of all his teammates and has 5
straight top 20s. Who would have ever imagined that?


  9.   rw posted:
  10.18.2009 - 1:38 pm
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Sigh Jr once again has more problems, what the hell is going on!

Props to Brad K, for getting a nice top 15 finish again.

Good run for Truex to get a top 10 since he's been horrific this year.


  10.   hyperacti posted:
  10.18.2009 - 1:47 pm
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"Casey Mears is now the 2nd best car out of all his teammates and has 5
straight top 20s. Who would have ever imagined that? "

I called it months ago bud.


  11.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 2:07 pm
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Anonymous, as much as I agree with you regarding Jimmie being extremely
overrated, you can't convert the results under the Chase to the old
points system and then make comparisons. The drivers are driving using
strategies for the Chase system, not for the old points system.

The Chase should have a big, gigantic FAIL written over it. Jimmie
Johnson would not be sniffing four in a row under the old points system.
NASCAR made the championship system LESS competitive. What a f**king joke.

Johnson's probably the worst driver with more than 30 wins, all things
considered.

"The end proved that clean air usually means more than a fast car in the
CoT."

Yup. Where is the racing?

"Guys who get in but do poorly finish ahead of where they deserve, and
guys who don't get in but kick butt in the final 10 races have to fight
for 11th or 13th (McMurray in 2004, Stewart in 2006)."

This is what I've been saying all along. In 2003, his last full-time
season, Bill Elliott finished ninth in points. Now, had there been a
chase, and he got locked out of it, he wouldn't have a top ten points
finish.

"Casey Mears is now the 2nd best car out of all his teammates and has 5
straight top 20s. Who would have ever imagined that?"

Nothing to brag about, really.


  12.   Baker posted:
  10.18.2009 - 2:24 pm
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Another year same results. Nascar is rigged. Its a bogus format in favor
of Jimmie Johnson. Nascar set the rules this way so it wasn't so
obvious, however, it is because as soon as they say 10 to go nothing bad
ever happens to the 48 team. I call BS. Every other team has equipment
failures, cars wreck in front of them that take them out, bad pit stops,
flat tires, something. No not this team because Nascar won't allow it.
I'm sure they speed on pit road every time, but since those numbers
aren't made public Nascar lets it slide each and everytime. Oh, but they
bust him once or twice in some nothing race that barely hurts him like
Sonoma this year just to make it seem as though its a fair series. BS
I'm done as a Nascar fan. I can't wait until they go bankrupt and
forgein makes dominate the sport. Nascar officials can all bit the big
one as far as I'm concerned.


  13.   Willy on Wheels posted:
  10.18.2009 - 3:25 pm
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They might as well just give Jerkoff Johnson the trophy for a 4th time.
I really want to see someone else win a title for once.


  14.   T-27 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 3:44 pm
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It's not rigged, it's just an incredibly lame system. Just look at the
tracks that make up the schedule. If there was a Watkins Glen and a
Bristol on it, and maybe Darlington, Jimmie would have a much harder time.

But I agree, it's no fun anymore. Johnson runs crap from Indy 'till
Richmond and then, as Joe Menzer says it, "puts on his cape" and we all
know what happens next.


  15.   Spen posted:
  10.18.2009 - 4:26 pm
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Anonymous : Actually, if we really used the old points system, which
doesn't include bonus points for winning, then Kenseth would have won
'06 by one point. However, Johnson would still have one championship,
since without those bonus points he would have beat Edwards by four
points last year. (Thanks to the one-hundred point penalty early in the
year.)

However, I do believe that Johnson would still have three championships
if we really did keep the old point system. He'd have won '04 if Knaus
didn't experiment with the engines in the races leading up to the chase
(which he wouldn't have done if those races actually counted). '06 and
'08 were both too close to call, but I'd give Johnson the edge since his
team always knows when and how to step it up. And this year looks close
enough for Johnson to potentialy win. No way would he have won '07,
though. He'd have been a bit closer, but nothing they could do could
possibly eradicate a 350 point gap.


  16.   Smokefan05 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 4:36 pm
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"The end proved that clean air usually means more than a fast car in the
CoT."

Same way the old car. It doesn't matter what car you have, once you are
in clean air your gone.

Might as well give JJ the Cup, cuz it's over. I'll watch Mville and
Tally but after that i'm done.

Better luck next year Juan.


  17.   Matt G posted:
  10.18.2009 - 4:47 pm
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For those who want to say that Jimmie is winning because of the Chase
system you are forgetting one very important point. The biggest strenth
of that 48 team is their ability to adapt to whatever conditions are
thrown at them. As others have stated Johnson's team knows what you have
to do to win in the Chase system. (Peak during the last 10 races)
There's no way of knowing exaxtly what would have happened if the Chase
were never put in place but Johnson's team would have won its fair share
of Championships.

The only way Jimmie does not win this thing is if the Talladega Gods are
mad at him.


  18.   John Royal posted:
  10.18.2009 - 5:07 pm
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Is there any driver who dares to bump Johnson in to a wall?


  19.   DaleJrFan18 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 5:58 pm
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I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned Denny telling off NASCAR and the
chase. Thats the 2nd week in a row someones done that. I see a rebellion
coming!

And yeah, congrats to Jimmie Johnson on winning your 4th straight
shampionship. Maybe one day, we will be rewarded fro enduring this
bullshit, but I'm not holding my breath.


  20.   petty43 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 6:12 pm
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jimmie is the man and cannot be beaten, why cant anyone step up and
challenge him. the chase sucks but he is still the man, he is not the
worse driver with more than 30 wins though however Kit.

i would rate jimme ahaed of dale jarret, bobby issac, tim flock, bill
elliot rusty wallace and buck baker, at least, maybe jeff gordon and dw
too. o and probably junior johnson and mark martin who combined have
zero titles, jimmie would still have one under the old system, he should
be rated ahead of stewart also. and as much as i hate to admit it he
belongs ahead of fireball and herb thomas too. but those too were really
great and i believe smokey yunick considered them the best he ever saw,
which is good enough for me. Although i would say junior was a better
racer, he was not a better driver however, there is a difference.


  21.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 6:16 pm
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"he is not the worse driver with more than 30 wins though however Kit."

Dale Jarrett and Bobby Isaac, Isaac especially, did not get EVERYTHING
handed to them. I'm not really consider pre-modern era drivers anway.

You've got to be shitting me if you think Jimmie Johnson, who's always
been in the best car in the sport, is better than Bill Elliott and Rusty
Wallace.

How old are you, really?


  22.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 6:17 pm
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"The biggest strenth of that 48 team is their ability to adapt to
whatever conditions are thrown at them."

Not hard to do when NASCAR throws everything at Hendrick's direction.
Hell, now I know why Tony Stewart left Gibbs for a Hendrick puppet ride.
It had little to do with team ownership.


  23.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 6:56 pm
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"You've got to be shitting me if you think Jimmie Johnson, who's always
been in the best car in the sport, is better than Bill Elliott and Rusty
Wallace."

Jimmie has more championships than Rusty and Bill, and he has more wins
than Bill and should surpass Rusty in victories. So therefore yes he is
better than both of those drivers.

Jimmie will be known as one of the best drivers of all time due to his 4
consecutive titles assuming he will win it this year. For me to put him
ahead of guys like Gordon, Yarborough, Waltrip, etc he would have to win
a lot more races than 46, which at the pace he is going he should reach
over 80 unless he slows down.

I am not a Jimmie Johnson fan and I hope he has trouble so Gordon can
catch up and have a shot at the title, but unfortunately I don't see it
happening.


  24.   Eric posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:12 pm
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Jimmie Johnson possible better than Jeff Gordon? You have to be KIDDING
me and I never been a Jeff Gordon fan.

Jeff Gordon is the better overall driver. Yes, both spent their entire
cup career at Hendrick but there is a difference in pure stock car talent.

Jeff is way more talent than Jimmie Johnson at road courses in stock
cars despite Jimmie's off road racing background before turning into a
stock car driver. Road Courses are based on more skill than equipment.

Jeff was great at all driver's tracks. The only reason why Jeff didn't
get win at Phoenix sooner was the fact Jeff in battles for the
Championship at his absolute best.

Jeff also is better than Jimmie at short tracks. Jeff is better than
Jimmie at Bristol and Richmond. Jimmie has more wins at Richmond than
Jeff, but Jimmie only finishes in the top 10 there one of the races he
raced there in cup. Jeff is more consistent at Richmond with him have 22
top 10's in 34 races. Jimmie can't be compare to Jeff Gordon at Bristol.
Jeff would embarrass him in his prime.

The Jeff Gordon your seeing now isn't the one I seen in his prime. Jeff
isn't as aggressive as he once was, isn't quite as good without Ray and
I think his back problems made him gun shy.

Total Wins isn't the only thing that Judge a driver a first place. You
have to judge where he wins and at where he places at that track when he
doesn't win in top 10's and top 5's.


  25.   Anonymous posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:34 pm
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Jimmie Johnson being better than Junior Johnson because Jimmie has
titles isn't logical considering Junior Johnson's era.

Junior Johnson really wasn't a full time driver in his era. In 1965 for
an example got 13 wins despite racing in 36 out of 55 races.

In Junior Johnson's era, race schedules were anywhere from 45 to 62
races in a season. The most Junior Johnson raced in a season was 41
races and that was in a 52 race season.

Junior Johnson wasn't any different than Jack Smith,Jim Paschal,Fred
Lorenzen and Marvin Panch. Those drivers were not full time cup drivers.
The race schedule was to long for those drivers. Winning races paid more
than championships did back in Junior Johnson's day if you enter at
races that paid a lot of money back than like Daytona, Riverside,
Atlanta, Darlington for an example. Back in 1965 for an example had a
lot of races that had the race purse was 6,000 dollars or less. The
races that had more than that were considered high paying races.

The other factor in this era besides money was the amount of traveling.
It was possible for cup races happening more than 2 times a week in that
era.


  26.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:36 pm
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"Jimmie Johnson possible better than Jeff Gordon? You have to be KIDDING
me and I never been a Jeff Gordon fan."

I never said Gordon was better.

"Jeff Gordon is the better overall driver."

For right now yes he is.

"The Jeff Gordon your seeing now isn't the one I seen in his prime."

I know that. No one could beat Gordon in his prime, not even Earnhardt.

"Total Wins isn't the only thing that Judge a driver a first place. "

I judge drivers based on wins and championships. So if Jimmie passes
Gordon in wins and championships, I will put Jimmie ahead of Gordon.


It may not be fair to judge that way, but the bottom line is all that
matters is the statistics. The fact is Jimmie is rising through the
ranks as one of the best ever whether people like it or not.


  27.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:37 pm
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"I never said Gordon was better"

I meant to say I never said Jimmie was better.


  28.   Eric posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:49 pm
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I wasn't referring to you Mike.

I was referring to Petty43.


  29.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 7:57 pm
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Oh ok, sorry about that


  30.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:38 pm
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"Jimmie has more championships than Rusty and Bill, and he has more wins
than Bill and should surpass Rusty in victories. So therefore yes he is
better than both of those drivers."

Are you the same Mike that thinks Michael Waltrip is such a great driver?

For starters, Jimmie Johnson has not won a championship under the old
points system. Bill and Rusty have, and I'd have to say that winning a
old points championship is a lot harder. You can't slack off for the
first 26 races. Nowadays, you just need a car that's good enough for the
top 12 after 26 races then the best car out of 12 after 36 races. Not
particularly hard compared to the old points system, especially with
NASCAR officials telling non-Chase drivers not to race too hard.

Plus Bill and Rusty won races in an era where the sport was far more
competitive. They competed with the likes of Earnhardt, Gant, Rudd,
Labonte, the Allisons, Kulwicki, Kyle Petty, Waltrip, Richmond, and
hell, Kyle Petty and Marlin. Bill and Rusty won championships by beating
several other dominant drivers.

Who has Johnson really competed with? Sure, there's good drivers like
Edwards and Kahne, but those guys are usually hampered by equipment
problems. Hell, this year alone, Juan Pablo Montoya was able to get high
up in points by doing nothing except finishing in the top 10 for half
the races. Johnson really has little competition.

The past four years, there's only been four or five drivers that Johnson
has to beat each year, and he had to beat them with the best car on the
track.

"I know that. No one could beat Gordon in his prime, not even Earnhardt."

The championship winners of '99 and '00 would disagree.

"It may not be fair to judge that way, but the bottom line is all that
matters is the statistics."

Yeah, I suppose for a guy like you, you'd rather stick with fourth grade
math than an advanced subject like statistics.


  31.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:41 pm
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"The other factor in this era besides money was the amount of traveling.
It was possible for cup races happening more than 2 times a week in that
era."

Plus racing back then was FAR more dangerous. Kryle Busch would have
been an unknown back then because half the shit he does would have put
him in the hospital. It took talent to keep from wrecking, not just
winning.


  32.   Kit posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:42 pm
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"I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned Denny telling off NASCAR and
the chase. Thats the 2nd week in a row someones done that. I see a
rebellion coming!"

It would be more credible if someone else did it besides Denny Hamlin.
Denny would swear at the toilet paper in his house if he didn't feel it
was doing an adequate job, assuming he wipes his own ass.


  33.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:55 pm
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"Are you the same Mike that thinks Michael Waltrip is such a great driver?"

I never said Michael Waltrip was a great driver. He is not the worst
driver of all time like some of you imply however.

"For starters, Jimmie Johnson has not won a championship under the old
points system. Bill and Rusty have, and I'd have to say that winning a
old points championship is a lot harder."

Good point, I won't argue that.

"Yeah, I suppose for a guy like you, you'd rather stick with fourth
grade math than an advanced subject like statistics."

Yeah, all it took for me was 4th grade math to learn how to examine
statistics. It's not that hard to do.


  34.   Mike posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:58 pm
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Oh btw Kit, you are wrong. Jimmie would have 1 championship under the
old format.

2006 Standings under old format

1 Jimmie Johnson 5158
2 Matt Kenseth 5154 -4
3 Kevin Harvick 4838 -320
4 Tony Stewart 4727 -431
5 Denny Hamlin 4725 -433
6 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 4641 -517
7 Jeff Gordon 4567 -591
8 Jeff Burton 4535 -623
9 Kasey Kahne 4497 -661
10 Mark Martin 4484 -674


  35.   petty43 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 8:59 pm
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kit, rusty was better at road courses and bristol only and bill eliot
was only good for about 5 years, while jimmie has maintained a better
peak era. o yes he has not performed against quite as tough of
competition as rusty, but you deal with what your dealt, and jimmie has
dominated the chase era the way petty dominated the factory era, and
herb and junior dominated the dirt eras.

my age is of no consequence to this discussion and it almost certainly
outdates yours, but that is a good thing for you right?


  36.   Anonymous posted:
  10.18.2009 - 9:34 pm
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"Plus Bill and Rusty won races in an era where the sport was far more
competitive. They competed with the likes of Earnhardt, Gant, Rudd,
Labonte, the Allisons, Kulwicki, Kyle Petty, Waltrip, Richmond, and
hell, Kyle Petty and Marlin. Bill and Rusty won championships by beating
several other dominant drivers."

Hilarious that you mentioned Kyle Petty at all, not to mention twice.
There were 32 drivers in last night's race that have won Cup races -
eight that are Cup champs. You are, to use one of your favorite words,
delusional.


  37.   petty43 posted:
  10.18.2009 - 9:40 pm
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i like what he said 32 winners thats good info


  38.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  10.19.2009 - 1:13 am
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I'm done watching the races this year. Jimmie Johnson's pretty much
already won the title, so why even bother watching? Not even Jeff Gordon
in his prime annoyed me as much as Jimmie is now, because at least
Gordon won his titles every other year (with the exception of the two
straight he won in 1997 and 1998) and it wasn't boring seeing the same
guy run away with it every year. LOL

As for Denny Hamlin telling off NASCAR and the Chase, I got one thing to
say: You might as well blame YOURSELF that you're as far behind in
points as you are right now! That stupid move you pulled at Fontana cost
you a lot of points, and a sure top-5 finish (maybe a win, but I doubt
it considering Jimmie had a perfect car and not too many people could
touch him that day either).


  39.   Kit posted:
  10.19.2009 - 2:37 am
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"Hilarious that you mentioned Kyle Petty at all, not to mention twice.
There were 32 drivers in last night's race that have won Cup races -
eight that are Cup champs. You are, to use one of your favorite words,
delusional."

Hilarious that you are calling me delusional when its obvious you did
not regularly watch Cup races prior to 1995. Kyle Petty was a
competitive driver prior to going to Petty Enterprises. He pushed Dale
Earnhardt of all people out of the way during the 1992 All-Star race, he
won on "driver" tracks such as Rockingham, was very competitive
elsewhere, and could have very easily won the 1992 championship.

There is a very sizable proportion of drivers, past and present, that
have won a Cup race so your point has no merit. Casey Mears and Michael
Waltrip have won Cup races.

But keep watching the Jimmie Johnson/#48 Team/Hendrick show if it makes
you happy. Right now, it's obvious why Mark Martin jumped out of
retirement and RHP jumped out of the #20 car: Hendrick is the only cars
worth a shit anymore. Everyone else is field filler.


  40.   John Royal posted:
  10.19.2009 - 4:26 am
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Somebody once suggested awarding points from 12 to 1 for the Chasers
depending how they finish comparing each other.

Point standings after Charlotte would be:

Jimmie Johnson 50
Mark Martin 43
Jeff Gordon 43
Juan Pablo Montoya 42
Tony Stewart 37
Kurt Busch 35
Greg Biffle 29
Kasey Kahne 28
Ryan Newman 27
Denny Hamlin 22
Carl Edwards 19
Brian Vickers 15


  41.   Anonymous posted:
  10.19.2009 - 4:36 am
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Wanna know who else has won at Rockingham? Joe Nemechek, Ward Burton,
Johnny Benson, Steve Park, and Bobby Hamilton... Kenny Wallace and Rick
Mast came damn close. JJ is so lucky he didn't have to race against
those guys in their prime. Wanna know who else beat Earnhardt
head-to-head in the All-Star race, WITHOUT wrecking him? Michael
Waltrip! Oh, and I hate JJ.


  42.   Willy on Wheels posted:
  10.19.2009 - 7:06 am
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18. John Royal posted:
10.18.09 - 5:07 pm

Is there any driver who dares to bump Johnson in to a wall?


If I were a NASCAR driver, I would.


  43.   Russ Shurtliff posted:
  10.19.2009 - 9:38 am
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Does anyone know who got the Lukcy Dog on the 5th Caution?
1-- no one down
2-- no one down
3-- no one down
4-- #7
5-- ??????
6-- #02
7-- #12
8-- #5
9-- #6
10- 43


  44.   Anonymous posted:
  10.19.2009 - 9:48 am
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Anonymous@4:36,

You have no clue that Joe Nemechek, Ward Burton, Johnny Benson, Steve
Park, and Bobby Hamilton aren't exactly talentless drivers in Cup.

Steve Park won at Watkin's Glen besides Rockingham. Steve didn't get
more than 2 wins in his cup career because he never was same driver
after the 2001 Darlington crash.

Johnny Benson was close to winning races in his career before his only
cup win at Rockingham like at Indy in 1996 before a bad pit stop for an
example. He didn't do well at Roush, but the fact is Roush didn't out
out good equipment to all his teams at the time. MB2 wasn't exactly a
great racing organization by the time he got there.

Joe Nemechek won at other tracks like Richmond, New Hampshire, and
Kansas. At times of his career, Joe was better than his equipment. The
teams he drove was midpack outside of Hendrick because there were poorly
managed or the resources weren't there. The 25 team was rebuilding at
the time he got there.

Bobby Hamilton Sr. was underrated. He won at other tracks like
Phoenix,Martinsville, and Talladega. Bobby won with teams that either
the way down or they were mediocre teams at best. Morgan McClure was on
the down by the team he got there.

Winning 2 times at Petty Enterprises was an accomplishment there. That
organization wasn't even mid-pack by the time Bobby went there. Petty
Enterprises didn't win a race for 13 years before Bobby did and Petty
Enterprises didn't have a driver that had at least 10 top's in a year in
8 years by the time Bobby did in 1995. The 43 car didn't have more than
5 top 10's in a year from 1988 to the time Bobby got there. The 43 car
wasn't a good a ride.

Bobby was winning races in cup when multi car teams was dominating the
cup series. Petty Enterprises wasn't a 2 car team organization before 1999.

Bobby winning at Andy Petree racing was a big deal. That team only had 2
cups wins in its existence and the other win was with Joe Nemechek. Andy
Petree racing was a mid pack organization through out it existence.


  45.   webmaster posted:
  10.19.2009 - 11:27 am
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Russ: the reports I've seen from NASCAR do not show any "Lucky Dog" for
that yellow flag. The official results should come out today, and that
report may have more information.


  46.   Matt G posted:
  10.19.2009 - 12:05 pm
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"Not hard to do when NASCAR throws everything at Hendrick's direction."

Even so, Johnson's team is still much better at adapting than everyone
else at Hendrick. Just look at Jeff Gordon. Here you have an all time
great on a Hendrick team that has won once in the last 72 races. What
the 48 team is doing is one of the most impressive things Nascar has
seen in a long time.

"For starters, Jimmie Johnson has not won a championship under the old
points system. Bill and Rusty have, and I'd have to say that winning a
old points championship is a lot harder.

The Chase was implemented during the 48 teams third year of existence.
(And it cost them a championship that year) You can't hold the 48 team
accountable for not winning under the old system if they only had two
chances. Hell, I think Jimmie's Chase championships are not nearly as
questionable as some of Petty's. Lets face it, if the Wood Brothers
would have run more than a partial schedule some of those years Pearson
would have at least one of Petty's seven Championships to add to his
collection.

And as far as the old point system being harder to win under, I think
Jeff Gordon might disagree with you.


  47.   Spen posted:
  10.19.2009 - 12:56 pm
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There was no "Lucky Dog" for the fifth caution. Montoya was the first
car a lap down, and he brought out the caution.


  48.   Anonymous posted:
  10.19.2009 - 1:37 pm
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Some of the Championships from Richard's time and prior were
questionable, but there were good reasons for that. The catch is you
can't really compare Richard Petty's era and prior to Jimmie Johnsons.

That era in Nascar was different than today's era. There was lot of more
part time cup teams from Richard Petty's era and prior. It was partly
caused by the length of the season. Racing 44 to 62 times a year in cup
is hard based on the means of transportation at the time and for cup
times for that matter. That means a good amount of fields in cup races
were small in that era as result.

Money you get for end of the year by points position didn't pay much
back than. Races paid more than a points championship would. That means
Championships didn't mean a lot to most drivers as a result. The biggest
fields in Nascar at that time was the tracks that had the highest purses.

Safety was a problem from Richard Petty's era and prior. It was the
reason why drivers like Ned Jarrett and Junior Johnson retired early.


  49.   Anonymous posted:
  10.19.2009 - 1:41 pm
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Jimmie Johnson championship era in the chase is similar to the old days
of drivers picking their tracks because Nascar made the chase Jimmie
Johnson friendly by having most Jimmie's best tracks in the chase.

Jimmie Johnson got aided this year by Nascar's no testing policy this
year. It has hurt some teams like RCR and Roush for an example.


  50.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.19.2009 - 3:39 pm
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"Thats the 2nd week in a row someones done that. I see a rebellion coming!"

It just shows how much frustration there is over the direction NASCAR
has gone. Although, as Kit said, Denny whines about everything, everyone
is just getting fed up. Did you see the grandstands for this race? Of
course you did, you got a damn good view of the grandstands because they
weren't even half full. And this is at a track smack dab in the middle
of NASCAR's core fan base. Of course holding it at night when it is 40
degrees outside was a dumbass move (for those of you Northerners here
saying "40 degrees, what's the big deal?" in the South that is cold).
Plus the fact this track has produced suck shit racing since they
levigated and repaved the track. Then you throw in the crappy COT and
the farce that is the cha$e system and bogus cautions, and nobody is
happy. I can drive to Lowe's Motor speedway in a little over an hour and
get hooked up with FREE tickets, and I won't go. But I will be at
Martinsville. Time for some real racing.


  51.   redbyron posted:
  10.19.2009 - 4:09 pm
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just want to chime in on the johnson stuff....in my opinion, even if he
wins 5 titles in a row, i dont see him as one of the top 5 "drivers"
today....nascar has, unfortunately, changed so much that aligning
yourself with a great team {which is done by being good looking and
being a great public speaker} is more important than being very
talented.....the team means everything, not the driver......it's become
like football......dan marino was a great QB, but never won a superbowl,
while trent dilfer [remember him?] was very average yet won a super bowl
because he was with a great team.....one can easily say that the 48 team
is, by far, the best team today, but they have an average driver, and
thats all they need the way the system is set up today.....it's sad for
those of us who have been around this sport for 30 years, actually it
sucks, but until the france family gets fed up with 20,000 empty seats
each week, its not going away.....in effect, the first 26 races really
dont mean anything at all for the top 10 drivers, its the guys from
11-18 who try to get in the chase, then pull a brian vickers by taking
their 12th place check and going homefor the year after
richmond......this format was a horrible idea that reeked of desperation
by nascar in an attempt to spice up ratings that had been falling due to
their 'product' being lackluster at best.....but, putting a new coat of
paint on a junk car doesn't change the fact that its still a junk
car.....and thats what nascar has now, junk.....


  52.   Cam posted:
  10.19.2009 - 4:44 pm
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How can a driver who sucks 26 races in end up being champion, its bogus

Sam Hornish Jr spins for only the 20th time this year

Only one start and park this week

Am I the only guy who's realised that Mark Martin's new ride is sponsor
by Godaddy, who's famous spokeswoman is a porn star


  53.   18fan posted:
  10.19.2009 - 5:30 pm
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If anybody slacks off at all during the season, how can they be
champion? NASCAR basically only cares about the last ten races, and puts
shitty tracks in the last 10.

One of the reasons Kyle missed the chase is that he went for the win and
paid for it at times, but he tried. Jimmie doesn't go for the wins until
10 to go. Yet another flaw in the system.


  54.   Talon64 posted:
  10.19.2009 - 5:32 pm
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This was Jimmie's 17th win in 55 Chase races, a winning percentage of
30.9%. His career winning percentage has broken 16% which is 6th all
time. Herb Thomas has the best, 21.05%.

After going 14 races without a top five finish Matt Kenseh now has 2 in
his last 4 races.

Kasey Kahne got his 3rd top ten in 5 Chase races but has run in the top
10 in all the Chase races and could be top five in points if it weren't
for circumstances beyond his control at NHIS (blown engine) and
California (getting wrecked once, getting back to the top 10 and then
getting wrecked again).

Jeff Gordon showed how good he still is by getting past Jimmie on the
last restart with a car that was top ten at best for most of the day and
with only two tires. 3rd straight top five.

Joey Logano gets his first top five since his win at New Hampshire. He
would've likely had a top five at the Coke 600 if it weren't for the
rain so Lowes was a good track for him this year. Still 20th in the
standings, about 60 points ahead of Kevin Harvick which would meet their
pre-season goal.

Casey Mears is now the 2nd best RCR car in points. Someone said it's
just Casey running well at the end of the season again after getting
canned for next year but it's more likely that it took the whole year
for him to gel with the team but once again he has to change teams and
CC's because no one will give him 2 seasons. >:-(

Martin Truex Jr. got his first top ten in the last 20 races.

Brad Keselowski ran his final Cup race for HMS and finished 12th. In 8
attempts in the 25 he DNQ'd once, his one top ten in 7 races was a 7th
at Darlington and his average finish was 21.3 with 3 top 15 finishes.

David Ragan had back-to-back top 20 finishes for the first time since
the first two races of the season at Daytona and California.

David Gilliland finished 25th, 1 lap down in a 4th JGR car. Considering

The last 2 times the 71 car hasn't start and parked they've finished
22nd with B-Lab at NHIS and 24th in this race with Mike Bliss. He also
made his 2nd start with CJM in Nationwide this weekend and in both
starts he's finished 2nd. So much for Phoenix Racing's reasons for
firing him because he doesn't "win enough", he's turned the 11 team into
a contender for wins. I've said it before, the last 4 seasons Mike Bliss
has stepped into a bunch of different teams in Cup, Nationwide and
Trucks and has run well in all of them. He better get a good full time
ride in at least Nationwide next year.

Brian Vickers had his 3rd straight finish of 29th or worse and appears
to have a lock on the Jeremy Mayfield Worst of the Best award
(TRADEMARKED!!!). Previous award alumni include 2 time winner Mayfield
in 2004 and 2005, of whom the award is named after, Kyle Busch in 2006,
Denny Hamlin in 2007 and Dale Earnhardt Jr. in 2008.


  55.   18fan posted:
  10.19.2009 - 6:02 pm
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Is the Jeremy Mayfield Worst of the Best Award whoever finishes last in
the chase.

It is still unknown who will win the Kyle Busch Choke of the Chase
Award. Previous winners are Matt Kenseth in 2004, Rusty Wallace in 2005,
award namesake Busch in 2006 and 2008, and Carl Edwards in 2007. This
award is for the Chaser who loses the most positions from New Hampshire
to Homestead, with whoever started higher in points getting the award.


  56.   Talon64 posted:
  10.19.2009 - 6:49 pm
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You got it. About your award, is the starting position their points
after New Hampshire, before or after it switches to the bonus points, or
after NHIS?


  57.   18fan posted:
  10.19.2009 - 7:08 pm
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When the points are reset, so going into New Hampshire. Also, the last
sentence should have "in the case of a tie" at the end.


  58.   Talon64 posted:
  10.19.2009 - 7:33 pm
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Then that means Denny Hamlin's leading the charge having dropped 7
positions so far. Vickers is next after dropping 5, then Kahne has
dropped 4 although frankly he's done a great job to be in 9th after the
two bad races he's had.


  59.   Willy on Wheels posted:
  10.19.2009 - 8:53 pm
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Just give Jimmie the trophy now. No need to run the last 5 races, his
point lead will just get bigger and bigger after each one


  60.   Willy on Wheels posted:
  10.19.2009 - 8:55 pm
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"Previous award alumni include 2 time winner Mayfield in 2004 and 2005"
Kurt Busch finished last in the chase in 2005


  61.   Spen posted:
  10.19.2009 - 11:13 pm
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True, but if he hadn't been suspended he (probably) would have finished
a bit higher.


  62.   petty43 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 12:07 am
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not to toot my own horn but i posted this on last years final race early
this january.

115. petty43 posted:
01.22.09 - 11:33 pm
ok time to blow off the old press guides and warm up for another
exciting year of cup racing.

well since everyone is in the prediction mode here goes, expect a whole
lot more of the same, 2009 will mirror 2008 expect the same drivers in
the chase save for tony who will get replaced by mark martin or kahne or
kurt busch, these other drivers who are expected to break through like
reutimann and ragan will not because talent only takes a driver so far.
but experienced teams are the key now, jimmie johnson WILL 4 peat you
heard it here 1 22 2009. he is a virtual lock apart from really bad
luck. the 99 will slide back as will most of roush while hendrick teams
flourish with the big dollars suport that only rick can offer, this
recession favors him over all these other owners right now.

chevy will win manufactures cup this year, logano roy by default, and
junior will remain most popular. this is his teltale year, now we will
see if he is privelged by last name or if he has real talent, he should
definately win 3 or 4 races this years in those cars no excuses!

look for biffle to replace edwards as lead driver in roush camp and rcr
cars will win more races while gibbs slides downward from what i hear,
also the penske cars are anticipating a big revival but with what
talent??? the big surprise could be the new dei ganassi team which
combines strenghts that both teams needed. o and here is hoping that
this is last year of mikey and i really hope that hylton does not make a
race, that would be like pete rose or ric flair trying a comeback please
just go away and accept that nascar will be just fine without a 74 year
old driver who was washed up 35 years ago.

All pretty good except tony, he really surprised me a lot. and rcr being
bad.


  63.   petty43 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 12:23 am
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to whom it may concern perhaps kit i did rate rusty ahead of jimmie at
this time a year ago, but i think he has edged him now.

True, gordon entered the sport at a good time but i do not think that
other drivers would have performed as well under the same circumstances.
He was so young and so good. that being said i think we are now watching
the same thing happen again. in 2 or 3 years we may be saying that
johnson's run has been better. some might say if he wins this third
straight championship, it already has been.

right now unless a driver is in a hendrick ,gibb or roush ride he has no
shot at the championship. there are other drivers on other teams that
are championship caliber but there teams are not. plus there are drivers
with gibbs hendrick and roush who i dont feel are championship caliber.
namely ragan macmurray, junior and logano when he starts. which is to
say that i think currently there may only be about 6 or 7 teams that
currently have or will have championship caliber combinations. That ,i
think is why nascar is starting to seem less competitive. there are
fewer and fewer "have teams" and to many "have nots".

also i do not think stewart will compete well next year. he will miss
the chase and possibly the next as well. It will take a couple years to
get that team running as good as say the 48 or 99, or even the 31 or 16.
Just becausae he has hendrick engines and cars, does not mean he wont
miss a beat. the same pitfalls that have caught hof, yates, wood bros,
and current haas still apply. he is good but no one can be that good
unless he gets ALL of Hendricks chassis setup material and i think
hendrick has always kept that stuff in house.

my top

1. Petty I know his numbers are inflated from his era but no other
driver dominated HIS challengers more. you cant change the fact that his
career began in 1958 not 1972. he beat everyone from fireball and junior
johnson to dale earnhardt sr and even raced against gordon. his total
resume is just so loaded.

2. earnhardt tied for championships but 124 race victory difference is a
BIG difference.

3. Pearson should not have always cherrypicked the schedule plus head to
head petty has slight edge. and earnhardt had a longer PEAK performance era.

4. Gordon. this was tough because i really like cale and bobby. Jeff has
as many titles as them combined and should pass both on the wins list
soon. plus his era was much tougher to compete in. still could reach
number 1 in my with over 100 wins and at least 2 more titles. but it is
not looking good.

5. Cale Great great driver who was so tough and strong. probably
stronger than carl edwards is now. plus 3 in a row. still the only 1 to
do that (for now). I do think he was the best driver with a poorly
running car. he could take a fifth place car and win a race easily.

6. bobby. my sentimental favorite driver of all time. he was so stubborn
though. if he had stayed with Junior Joghnson he would have won more
titles and races. But this is not a "what if" list, it is a "what was" list.

7. DW. also a favorite of mine but he was not the same after the wreck
and I dont think staying with hendrick would have changed that. he was
the tire wars biggest victim, but he also probably won more races with
cheated up cars than any other driver in his era.

8. Rusty Wallace, for now has this spot will get passed up by stewart
and JJ. But he was very good, and also a complete driver on all surfaces
and types except daytona and talladega, which probably had more to do
with penske than him. great on 1 mile and less tracks.

9. lee petty. Best of the "old guard"
3 titles 55 wins. both would have been better but for the wreck that
basically ended his career. also still the winningest "owner" in cup
history.

10. Herb thomas 46 win in 6 years and 2 driving titles. when they were
driving stock hudsons and I mean stock.

11. Buck baker raced my all time favorite car the 57 black widow, to his
second consectutive title in 57 and raced forever.

Jimmie Johnson this is where i would insert him now, but it is to early.
could win 40 races before this year is over plus a 3rd cup.

12. tony stewart right now i would say jimmie has caught and passed tony
stewart on my list of rankings. Tony began his career 3 years before JJ
and yet jimmie caught in total wins late LAST year and will pull away
steadily as stewart struggles with his equipment. Tony may be the more
talented driver but the numbers have turned in favor of JJ here. he
overcame a 12 race victory deficit in less than 5 seasons to pass tony
and now leads 38 to 33.

13. junior johnson Of all the drivers i have NOT seen race this is the
guy i wish i could have seen, he is kind of an enigma as a driver,
everyone knows about the success of his owner career, but few remember
his racing career. 45 wins in 8 years but no titles, could not save his
equipment even if ahead by multiple laps. hardest racer ever, too hard.
And best driver not to win a title mark martin included.

14.bill elliot, kind of a one year wonder, but his 85 season marked the
start of nascar's truly modern era and forced other teams to take it to
another level in order to keep up with his family organization. that
being said should have won 2 titles in 85 and 92 that he choked away,
and should never have tried ownership. tony stewart you have been warned.

15 ned jarret i can overlook 2 driving titles and 50 wins only so long.

16 Mark martin. heres hoping he wins it next year in a hendrick chevy
just so roush has to eat it. great driver, great person, hard luck guy
though. his 98 season might be the best non-title season ever.

17 terry labonte 2 titles but never a dominant season, the streak was
overrated but his talent was underrated.

18. Joe weatherly the 2 time champ NOBODY remembers plus his 63
championship is one of nascars miracle seasons, like kulwicki's.

19. tim flock he was a 2 time champ and his 55 season is one for the
ages, even by kiekhafer standards.

20. dale jarrett not quite as good as dad but very close and his title
season was very convincing start to finish.

21.bobby issac. 1 title in a very cool car and 20 poles in one season.
68 to 71 was really his whole career.

22. fireball roberts. perhaps nascar's first gate attraction and should
have won a title or 2 really.

23. ricky rudd 16 straight years with a win and the one at martinsville
in 98 an all time great. good for a very long time but never really great.

24 Harry Gant always very well liked and remained competitive at an
older age than most.

25.Davey Allison. His rivlary with Jeff Gordon could have been one for
the ages.
26. benny parsons
27rex white
28 Buddy Baker
29. fred lorenzen
30. curtis turner
31 Lee Roy Yarbrough
32. neil bonnett
33. Tim Richmond
34. Matt Kenseth
35. Bobby Labonte
36. Ernie Irvan
37. Geoffrey Bodine
38. jeff burton
39. dale earnhardt jr
40. jack smith


i would rate jimmie about 6 or 7 if he wins this chase. the only other
drivers to sustain this kind of prolonged dominance since the 60's were
king, Sr, and cale and Jeff gordon. greatness is best proven over long
stretches of time. and now jimmie apphears to have done that.


  64.   petty43 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 12:24 am
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that list was from last sept.


  65.   Matt G posted:
  10.20.2009 - 12:30 am
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"Not to toot my own horn but" I'm gonna toot my own horn


  66.   Bronco posted:
  10.20.2009 - 12:56 am
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Good list petty43 but where is Kurt Busch?? I'd put him at a tie with
Dale Jr.

I think Terry Labonte is a bit too high on your list. Yes he won 2
championships, but he only won 22 races despite having a very long
career and driving for Hendrick for 10 years. He simply wasn't
aggressive enough on the track. He has tons of top 10s, yet very few
laps led.

I think Bobby Labonte and Matt Kenseth should trade places since Bobby
has more wins, a much more dominating championship season and has won
crown jewels such as the Coke 600, Brickyard 400 and Southern 500.


  67.   18fan posted:
  10.20.2009 - 1:03 am
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petty43, I would probably put Junior Johnson ahead of Tony Stewart. The
rest of your list is excellent.


  68.   petty43 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 9:41 am
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yes i am looking at updating it and i need to add carl biff kyle and kurt.

and i realize i wasa tooting my own horn, it was a bit obvious i thought.


  69.   Cam posted:
  10.20.2009 - 2:26 pm
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Pettty43's list is excellent. But you should add Scott Speed, Paul
Menard and Dave Blaney in.

Just kidding, how can they be in NASCAR, Speed gonna go in 2010, and Red
Bull will probably get Jeff Burton, or Travis Kvapil, or Landon Cassil.

P.S I'm surpised no one's even looked at Cassil yet, given Gibbs got
Logano and Hendrick thought that he had Keselowski, Penske got him instead.

P.P.S Elliot Sadler's car was the most gay car I ever saw. I know it
supports breast cancer but get a real paint job.


  70.   Cam posted:
  10.20.2009 - 3:02 pm
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Just seconds after publishing my comment, I have decided to make a top
ten of Nascar paint jobs

1. Joey Logano's Home Depot #20
2. Casey Mears' Jack Daniels # 07
3. Carl Edwards' Subway #99
4. Jeff Burton's Prilosec OTC #31
5. Jimmie Johnson's Lowe's #48
6. Carl Long's Romeo Guest #46
7. Denny Hamlin's Fed EX Ground #11
8. Jamie Murray's Crown Royal #26
9. David Ragan's UPS #6
10.Reed Sorenson's Super 8 #43


  71.   Talon64 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 4:42 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

""Previous award alumni include 2 time winner Mayfield in 2004 and 2005"
Kurt Busch finished last in the chase in 2005 "

whoops, forgot about that. But Jeremy was still awful enough those two
years combined to warrant the award being named after him in memorium of
his "achievements".

So Denny Hamlin has the opportunity to become the first two time winner
of the award this year but 3rd in his rookie year, 8th last year and
decent performances only screwed up by Denny makes him far from the
worst. Jeremy was awful, Denny was just stupid on occasion.


  72.   Kit posted:
  10.20.2009 - 11:27 pm
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ANY list that has Dale Jr. listed but not Alan Kulwicki should be
immediately discounted.

"And Brian Vickers is doing his best Jeremy Mayfield impersonation."

Yeah, but remember that Mayfield was driving for Evernham, and we all
know the drama associated with that team. Look at Kahne right now; he
can't do shit in the chase with that team.


  73.   petty43 posted:
  10.20.2009 - 11:50 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

kulwicki would rate somewhere between 45 and 55. he could have reached
the teens but that was never meant to be. for what its worth alan was
kind of a one year wonder at the time of his death. i mean if you asked
100 nascar fans who the ten best drivers were in 1991, maybe 2 or 3
would include alan kulwicki. i know i did not think of him as being one
of the ten best drivers prior to 1992, and a little over a year later he
was a champ with 5 wins, and then gone, just one of many nascar
tragedies through the years.

i would argue that he actually deserves more credit than he gets for
that title, but in reality it was a perfect storm of circumstances that
allowed him to win the title, i mean it was one of the least convincing
titles of all time. but also one of the most exciting.


  74.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  10.21.2009 - 2:52 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

To me, the main thing is that Kulwicki was the winner of the 1992 title.
And he did it with his own team, running consistently enough all season
to stay in the hunt and making a comeback from over 200 points out!

The reason why Kulwicki would seem like a one-year wonder is because his
race team was nowhere near the powerhouse that Hendrick, Roush, RCR and
Yates were at that time.


  75.   petty43 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 9:21 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

to me the the biggest problem i have with the whole episode is alan gets
a cup handed to ( i mean how else do you make up 200 points that quick,
you have to get some help from the guys your chasing) and he gets fondly
remembered for that which is fine, but i just wish davey would have won
that cup, because it ended up being his last shot, and i am just a
sucker for the allison family, they suffered so much tragedy. but o
well. alan is won of the worst drivers to win a cup (statistically) and
davey is arguably the best driver to never win a cup, ain't racing a
bitch sometimes.


  76.   John Royal posted:
  10.21.2009 - 11:34 am
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petty43, I find your statement odd that Davey should have had the
championship because it was his last opportunity. But it was also
Kulwicki's last opportunity and he was the one that went away with the
championship. I think we all agree that if Davey had not died, he would
have won the championship sooner or later. So maybe it eases the pain.

It was just very very tragic thing that we lost both Kulwicki and
Allison, but I am glad that Kulwicki was there to achieve last true
achievement of modern day NASCAR.


  77.   Sean posted:
  10.21.2009 - 12:56 pm
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My approximate ranking:

1. David Pearson (won 3/4 titles when he competed full-time; Petty
himself said he was the best; thinking man's driver)
2. Cale Yarborough (won 3/8 titles full-time, a better percentage than
Petty)
3. Dale Earnhardt (raced in a much more competitive era than Petty)
4. Richard Petty
5. Jeff Gordon (raced in a slightly more competitive era than
Allison/Waltrip)
6. Bobby Allison
7. Darrell Waltrip
8. Fireball Roberts (didn't come close to running a full schedule and
still had great winning percentage and points finishes...like that
season he won 6 races and scored 8 top fives in 10 starts)
9. Junior Johnson (very similar stats to Roberts, but won more due to
entering more often)
10. Tim Flock (18 wins in a 39-race season deserves top 10 placement)
11. Tim Richmond (more raw talent than most of his contemporaries)
12. Rusty Wallace
13. Ned Jarrett
14. Herb Thomas
15. Lee Petty (had much more team stability than those with fewer wins
from the same era like Flock and Thomas)
16. Mark Martin
17. Bill Elliott
18. Tony Stewart (perhaps I rate road course success too highly...)
19. Buck Baker
20. Bobby Isaac
21. Alan Kulwicki (absolutely belongs on the list, but I don't think
he's top ten)
22. Joe Weatherly
23. Fred Lorenzen
24. Curtis Turner
25. Jimmie Johnson (I guess I almost agree with Kit here...Jarrett is
the only 30+ winner I have placed lower, but I think he's done enough to
surpass those with 20 or fewer wins)
26. Harry Gant
27. Ernie Irvan (I rank him higher than the other Yates drivers because
he was more dominant after taking the #28 till his '94 crash than
Allison was, was more dominant from '92-'94 than Rudd ever was, and I
feel Jarrett capitalized on Yates's success before)
28. Ricky Rudd
29. Geoff Bodine
30. Davey Allison
31. Neil Bonnett
32. Terry Labonte (two titles, yes, but they were his only
championship-caliber seasons)
33. Benny Parsons
34. Buddy Baker
35. Dale Jarrett
36. Bobby Labonte (35 and 36 both strike me as products of the right car
at the right time, like many say about Johnson. They struggled more on
short tracks than most other legends, for instance...)
37. Jeff Burton (every bit as good as DJ/BL in the late '90s and I saw
him as largely interchangeable with them and just as deserving a champion)
38. Matt Kenseth
39. Marvin Panch
40. Kyle Busch (I'll catch hell for this one probably, but I do think
he's more deserving than anyone else I could think of here...very
versatile in terms of the tracks he's won on, whether likable or not,
and I do think he's slightly better than Biffle, Edwards, and Kahne, and
much better than Junior and Harvick.)


  78.   Sean posted:
  10.21.2009 - 1:02 pm
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Hmm...I did forget one biggie. Rex White, probably more deserving than
the Shrub. Okay, put White in at 30 and bump Kyle Busch.


  79.   Anonymous posted:
  10.21.2009 - 1:48 pm
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Nice comparison with Jeff Burton, Bobby Labonte and Dale Jarrett. The
only difference was Jeff was the weaker qualifier of the 3.


  80.   Sean posted:
  10.21.2009 - 2:46 pm
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One more PS. What I wrote for Burton ("just as deserving a champion")
makes it imply that Burton won a championship when I know he hasn't;
what I meant is that he was every bit as deserving of a championship as
Jarrett/B. Labonte/Kenseth even though he never won one (and probably
isn't going to).


  81.   Talon64 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 4:41 pm
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"Yeah, but remember that Mayfield was driving for Evernham, and we all
know the drama associated with that team. Look at Kahne right now; he
can't do shit in the chase with that team."

I think Kahne's been great in the Chase so far, the only things that
kept him from 5 top tens in 5 Chase races was the R6 Dodge engine's
reliability issues that finally came up in the first race and then
getting wrecked twice (and he probably would've finished in the top ten
even after the first wreck!) at California.

Also I'd put Jimmie Johnson in the top 10 all time, you don't win 3
championships in a row and look set to get 4 in a row if you aren't a
great driver. Rank Jeff Gordon just as low as Johnson then because him
and Evernham are just the same as Jimmie and Chad, otherwise put Johnson
up there with Jeff.


  82.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.21.2009 - 4:46 pm
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Here's my Top 5:

1) Dale Earnhardt. Yes, I'm biased, but he won 76 races in the modern
era with shortened schedules, 7 championships, and with the exception of
1987, he never drove for the best team in the sport.

2) David Pearson. The guy won whatever he stepped in. True it was mostly
with the best teams at the time (Cotton Owens, Holman Moody, and the
Wood Brothers), but he still won 1 out of every 5 races he entered. If
he would have made a run at the championship more than 4 times (3 of
which he won), he might have the record for most titles. His picture is
in the dictionary beside the word "winner".

3) Richard Petty. Yes he drove in over 1,000 races and mostly in an era
with few other good teams. But the fact is 200 wins is still 200 wins.
Plus those were in an era when the cars were very fragile. They couldn't
just go all out from flag to flag, they had to know when to ride and
when to race. They had to be easy on the motors, easy on brakes, easy on
the transmission, yet still stay up front. No easy task. Petty is The King.

4) Cale Yarborough. That was one tough son of a bitch. He won
everywhere. He has a ton of wins at tracks like Daytona (all
unrestricted when you really had to have a set to be successful),
Atlanta, Riverside, and all the short tracks.

5) Bobby Allison. He won with about 47 different owners. If he could
have gotten along with his owners and kept some form of continuity, he
would have more championships. But he was very stubborn and kept
shuffling rides. But he won in every thing he stepped in, including the
Matador, whose aerodynamics are on par with a tank.

But here are my Top 5 "what ifs".:

1) Davey Allison. If his career (and life) were not tragically
shortened, there is no telling what he could have done. The chemistry he
had with Larry McReynolds and Robert Yates was unbelievable, they would
have been unstoppable. I think he would have won the championship in
1994 (considering how well Ernie was running), 1997 (DJ was 17 points
short in Yates equipment, and Davey was way more talented than DJ), 1999
(see 1997), and 2001 (Yates was strong that year).

2) Alan Kulwicki. Two things to consider here. 1) Much like Davey he was
tragically killed in his prime and 2) he was an independant running on a
MUCH lower budget than the people he was competing with. That held back
his win total, but he still won a championship against the big boys
UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM!!!

3) Tim Richmond. That guy could drive the piss out of a race car. If
would have stayed hooked up with Hendrick, that organization would have
become a powerhouse a lot sooner.

4) Fireball Roberts. This guy was FAST!! He had a set of balls the size
of boulders.

5) Ernie Irvan. Super talented, and was finally beginning to harness it
in 1994 under Yates and McReynolds so he wasn't crashing every other
week. He was Kyle Busch with a better attitude before that. Bad fast and
wild. Had he not gotten hurt, he could have racked up some championships
with Yates. Hell, after being all but dead after his Michigan crash, he
still came back and won 3 races at only about 75% of what he was. Ol'
Swervin Irvan was something to watch!!


  83.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.21.2009 - 5:00 pm
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" Right now, it's obvious why Mark Martin jumped out of retirement and
RHP jumped out of the #20 car: Hendrick is the only cars worth a shit
anymore. Everyone else is field filler."

Exactly.


  84.   Talon64 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 5:02 pm
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Talking about Davey Allison and Ernie Irvan reminds me of Kenny Irwin,
Steve Park and Jerry Nadeau; All of them would've still been driving in
Cup today, or if not Irvan then he would've retired within the last few
years, and we would've all been much better off for it. :(


  85.   Talon64 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 5:05 pm
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BTW NASCAR writer Dustin Long brought together Kyle Petty, Jimmy Spencer
and Larry McReynolds for a round table discussion about what's wrong
with NASCAR. It's in parts that'll be posted each day until Sunday and
the first part deals with the state of the sport and they make a lot of
good points.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/frankly-speaking-sport-serious-trouble


  86.   RR posted:
  10.21.2009 - 6:08 pm
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I think Jeff Burton is probably the most overrated active driver in Cup.
He didn't really prove anything while with the Stravola Brothers team
(granted it wasn't a top tier ride, (Hut did better in 1996 than Burton
did in 94 or 95). He has four good years in one of the best cars in the
field, and benfits from having a great crew cheif, as well as geeting
the best eqiupment of the bunch (I believe they had taken Mark's
consistency for granted, and thus diverted more resources to Burton). He
then had three disappointing years in a fully-sponsored Roush car (I
know Rousch struggled in 2001, but Burton was favored to win the Cup
that year).

He hasn't really wowed me at RCR. He's managed a few wins, but he's
mostly been an 10th place car.

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good driver. But I don't think he
belongs in a top 40 all-time list. I don't even think he's the best Burton.

Quick top ten. I'll just list the drivers, and if anybody has a
question/comment , I'd be more than happy to respond.

1) Pearson
2) Yarborough
3) Petty
4) Earnhardt
5) Gordon
6) Watrip (most wins in the modern era)
7) B. Allison
8) Roberts
9) Ju. Johnson
10t) N. Jarrett
10t) Townley


  87.   RR posted:
  10.21.2009 - 6:11 pm
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Oh, and I will say that it is harder to rank current drivers based on
two factors.

1) More emphasis on the car (aerodynamics, handling, etc.) than the driver.
2) The advent of the Chase, which makes the act of "points racing" as
opposed to actually going all out more prevelant.


  88.   Sean posted:
  10.21.2009 - 6:14 pm
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"Rank Jeff Gordon just as low as Johnson then because him and Evernham
are just the same as Jimmie and Chad, otherwise put Johnson up there
with Jeff." - Talon64

Disagree. Gordon has had dominant seasons with three different crew
chiefs (Evernham, Loomis, Letarte), while Johnson has only had one crew
chief (not counting Knaus's suspensions).

While Gordon had among the best cars on the track when starting out, he
did have to build up his own team, and in addition to doing that, built
up Hendrick Motorsports. Hendrick was already the major powerhouse when
Johnson arrived, and Johnson had arguably the strongest cars of any
rookie ever after receiving championship-winning chassis and engines
from the #24 team the previous season, which was unheard of for a
rookie. Johnson did not have to build up his team at all.

Gordon is stronger on short tracks (though Johnson is closing, he's
still not good at Bristol) and road courses than Johnson.

And of course he won his titles in the old system (plus scoring the most
points two more times, including one season Johnson won), along with
many more wins.

While Johnson is probably better than Gordon now and has been for
several of the preceding years, Gordon's whole career amounts to much more.


  89.   Talon64 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 6:30 pm
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Since there's only Johnson's first 8 seasons with Knaus to judge then
you can only compare that to Jeff's time with Evernham. Really it'd
ideal because we're seeing Johnson at the best he's probably ever going
to be so it's a good comparison to make to Jeff's super dominant
seasons. Here's their first 8 seasons in comparison:

* Johnson's Career 1st 8 years - 2002 to 2009
o 46 wins, 114 top fives, 176 top tens, three back to back championships
(but with likely a 4th straight championship in 2009)
* Jeff Gordon's career 1st 8 years - 1993 to 2000
o 52 wins, 129 top fives, 166 to tens, 3 championships

Jeff ran less races in those 8 seasons so the percentages for wins and
finishes are even better than the numbers. Jeff was also 4 years younger
than Jimmie when he started full time in Cup. But Jimmie will likely get
a 4th championship this year and beat Jeff in that category, plus
Jimmie's never failed to win a race or finish outside the top five in
points in a season yet. Championships are championships whether it's the
Chase, the regular points championships or much of Richard Petty's
championships when nobody cared about them at the time but they're in
such high regard now.

IMO based on this comparison I'll give the slightest edge to Jeff, he
should've won the 1996 championship and have 4 straight championships
himself plus he was more dominant. Beyond that we'll have to see what
Jimmie does later on to see who's better based on their entire careers.


  90.   Anonymous posted:
  10.21.2009 - 7:02 pm
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"Rank Jeff Gordon just as low as Johnson then because him and Evernham
are just the same as Jimmie and Chad, otherwise put Johnson up there
with Jeff." - Talon64

While I am not a Jeff Gordon fan, I have to disagree with you. Jeff
Gordon is much better all around driver than Jimmie Johnson based on his
career. Jeff's not in his price. Jeff isn't as aggressive as he used to
be and I think his past injuries had something to do with it.

Jimmie never has impressed me as a road course driver and Jeff is the
best Road course racer as cup regular ever. Jeff was capable of winning
at every short track in his prime on the cup circuit. He has won a good
amount of races with multiple crew chiefs despite the fact Ray was his
best crew chief. Jimmie either wins at Richmond or he doesn't finish
well there. Jimmie is one of the Martinsville greats at that track, but
he hasn't come close at Bristol a lot to win. That means Jimmie isn't as
a good as Jeff at Short tracks.



The Hendrick Motorpsports you see now didn't exist at the time Jeff
Gordon first raced for Hendrick. RCR was the top chevy team by the time
Jeff Gordon went to Hendrick. Hendrick only had 1 great year after the
1986 season and that happened in 1989.

Hendrick had an excellent driver named Ricky Rudd from 1990-1993. During
the Rudd years, Hendrick had a problem figuring out the Chevy Lumina and
wasn't quite the same organization without Tim Richmond before Jeff
Gordon came along. In 1992, the last year before Jeff went full time
with Hendrick Motorsports, Hendrick only had 1 win. Darrell Waltrip's
own racing team had more wins than Hendrick did in 1992 even. 1992 also
was a ford year. Ford won 16 out of 29 races in 1992. Pontiac won 3
times in 1992 and Oldsmobile also won 2 times in 1992 The Chevy teams
with the most wins that year were Morgan McClure and Darrell Waltrip
with 3 a piece.

Jimmie Johnson did have a start up team also, but he had 2 big
advantages over Jeff Gordon.

1.) Jimmie had Jeff 2001 cup cars like Sean said. That is a big
advantage becuase won Jeff Gordon the 2001 Winston Cup.
2.) Hendrick was not rebuilding in Jimmie's rookie year unlike Jeff
Gordon's rookie year. Jeff Gordon stats went down in 2002, but Jeff had
personal problems at time and I think it affected him on the track.


  91.   petty43 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 7:05 pm
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my problem with pearson being number one is that he did not demonstrate
that he absolutely 100% had to race, compete, win. the greatest of all
time or g.o.a.t. must convince me that if two guys were racing for a
foam cup he would want to get out there and whip em. also do not over
emphasize his win% since he did cherry the tracks were he was best. plus
any slight advantage that pearson had on petty as a driver would not put
him ahead of petty's contributions away from the track, that is why he
was the king.


  92.   petty43 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 7:18 pm
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also sean you should rank alan a lot lower, in fact many of your ratings
are based on what could have been it appears. like fireball, richmond
and irvan. best to rate on what was then on what could have been. why
not rate turner right there with fireball and lorenzen was as good on
early superspeedways as junior johnson was. also weatherly could be up
higher, no less an authority than smokey yunick thought he was one of
his best drivers ever, and smokey would not blow smoke up your ass, lol.


  93.   Talon64 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 7:23 pm
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Part 2 of the roundtable I posted earlier, this one talking about debris
cautions.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/10/frankly-speaking-debris-cautions-drive-me-freaking-crazy

_____________________________________________________________________________

Jimmie Johnson doesn't run as well at road courses as he could because
he doesn't have to; there aren't any road courses in the Chase and if
they decided to put one in there I think you'd probably see Jimmie
suddenly running a lot better on them. Infineon and the Glen are late
enough into the season that Jimmie is already pretty much locked into
the Chase. They did put some more effort into it this year and he won
the pole for the Glen and it's only a matter of time before Jimmie gets
a road course win.

And Jimmie's figured Bristol out after running up front, leading 88 and
107 laps in the races and having a chance of winning both of them. It
wouldn't surprise me to see him win a bunch of races at Bristol like he
did Richmond and Indianapolis, tracks he had a terrible record at but
now he's one of the best at both of them.

I've already said I give the edge to Jeff, but maybe more than slight
since him being younger at the time makes it more impressive.

And about HMS' off years before Jeff arrived, them getting back on track
also coincides with Terry Labonte, and his 16 years of experience as a
Cup driver at the time, signing with HMS for 1994. So it wasn't just Jeff.


  94.   petty43 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 7:59 pm
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for what its worth 10 months ago nascar scene published a list that was
top 60 cup drivers only. nobody like ralph earnhardt, jack ingram or
jerry cook included. it was compiled by the entire staffs of nascar
scene and illustrated.
1. earnhardt
2. petty
3. gordon
4. pearson
5. dw
6. cale
7. bobby
8. jimmie johnson
9. bill elliot
10. rusty wallace
11.lee petty
12 junior johnson
13 ned jarrett
14 tony stewart
15 mark martin
16 buck baker
17 dale jarrett
18 terry labonte
19 kurt busch
20 kenseth
21 bobby labonte
22 herb thomas
23 fireball
24 dale junior
25 fred lorenzen
26 davey allsion
27 bobby issac
28 joe weatherly
29 benny parsons
30 ricky rudd
31 rex white
32 jeff burton
33 curtis turner
34 buddy baker
35 tim glock
36 alan kulwicki
37 harry gant
38 carl edwards
39 kyle busch
40 neil bonnet
41 red byron
42 jim pashcal
43 tim richmond
44 jack smith
45 lee roy yarbrough
46 kevin harvick
47 fonty flock
48 speedy thompson
49 geoffrey bodine
50 ernie irvan
51 greg biffle
52 marvin panch
53 aj foyt
54 ryan newman
55 donnie allison
56 kasey kahne
57 dick hutcherson
58 sterling marlin
59 cotton owens
60 kyle petty


  95.   petty43 posted:
  10.21.2009 - 8:00 pm
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yeah it is a bad list.


  96.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.21.2009 - 8:34 pm
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They have Harvick ranked ahead of Ernie Irvan? They have Harvick ranked
at all?


  97.   18fan posted:
  10.21.2009 - 9:02 pm
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Jimmie Johnson did not once lead the points starting the chase in his
streak. I know he technically started 1st in 07 but it was the reset by
wins.

I don't care what people say, whoever scores the most points in the
season, not including the added points for the chase, should be
champion. NOT whose the best in the last 10 races. Also there is an
interesting article on nascar.com about how to Jimmie-proof the chase,
as seven of the chase tracks are in Jimmie's top ten in terms of average
finish.


  98.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  10.22.2009 - 2:43 am
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Yeah, Harvick shouldn't be ranked at all on that list. Kyle Petty did
more with lesser equipment than he would have.


  99.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  10.22.2009 - 2:44 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I don't care what people say, whoever scores the most points in the
season, not including the added points for the chase, should be
champion. NOT whose the best in the last 10 races."

Exactly!


  100.   Anonymous posted:
  10.22.2009 - 5:17 pm
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Dale Jr is overrated on that list with him being ranked 24th. Dale Jr
does have 18 wins including the Daytona 500, but some of the names below
him are better drivers than he is. I consider Fred Lorenzen, Davey
Allison, Joe Weatherly, Ricky Rudd, being better drivers than Dale Jr.
for an example. Dale only has 11 wins outside of plate tracks. Dale
isn't bad at some driver's track in his career before this year like
Richmond, Martinsville, Bristol, and Phoenix.

Kevin Harvick has no business being on the list. Kevin Harvick is at his
best at Driver Tracks, but he is to high. Kevin having 11 wins right now
career and that is low considering the fact RCR had some good equipment
in some of his years on the cup level.


  101.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  10.22.2009 - 6:07 pm
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"Dale Jr is overrated on that list with him being ranked 24th."

I agree. 24th? He's barely the 24th best driver competing at this very
moment.


  102.   Talon64 posted:
  10.22.2009 - 6:29 pm
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If Peter Windsor had his way, and if this isn't just his way of grabbing
attention, Kyle Busch would be driving for USF1 in 2011.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/formula1/2009-10-21-us-f1-wants-kyle-busch_N.htm

If by a miracle this happens I'd like to see how Kyle would adapt to an
open wheel car compared to how JPM adapted to a stock car.


  103.   RR posted:
  10.22.2009 - 10:51 pm
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That would be quite interesting. But guys like Grosjean and Alguersuari,
who have had years experience in the feeder series, have struggled in
their first years. Imagine a guy with even less experience.


  104.   Anonymous posted:
  10.22.2009 - 11:15 pm
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Apparently last night Michael Waltrip got drunk and struck a motorcycle
while attempting a U-turn. That's two accidents in two years, which is
of course not counting all the times he wrecks on the track. The guy is
just as embrassment to Nascar no matter how you slice it.


  105.   Mike posted:
  10.22.2009 - 11:22 pm
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That NASCAR scene list is ridiculous. Seriously, Kurt Busch better than
Herb Thomas? LMAO!


  106.   Smokefan05 posted:
  10.22.2009 - 11:25 pm
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.06 isn't legally drunk, .08 is the legal limit. I'm not big on laws and
stuff so if i'm wrong someone correct me. But i'm not going to defend a
stupid move by Mikey. Any respect i had for Mikey is OFFICALLY gone.
I'll be glad when you retire.


  107.   Eric posted:
  10.22.2009 - 11:34 pm
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Smokefan05,

You are correct that 0.06 isn't legally drunk according to North
Carolina law. That is according to
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/news/story?id=4585675 .

I can't defend Waltrip on this though. This is the 2nd time since the
beginning of 2007 that Waltrip was involved in an accident.


  108.   18fan posted:
  10.23.2009 - 1:32 am
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Herb Thomas, the legend few modern fan has heard of. Should go in with
Pearson, Lee Petty, Allison, and Yarborough in the second Hall of Fame
class. Yes, I didn't include Darrell Waltrip.


  109.   petty43 posted:
  10.23.2009 - 8:37 am
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second hall of fame class should be pearson, cale, bobby, rick hendrick,
and smokey yunick.


  110.   Anonymous posted:
  10.23.2009 - 9:41 am
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I think it is too early for Rick Hendrick to get it. Rick's numbers were
inflated a lot by him having multi car teams for all but 2 of his years
is cup.

I think the owners of Holman-Moddy, Petty Enterprises(Lee Petty is the
founder, not Richard), and wood brothers need to be in first.

The 2nd Class will be David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Cale, Lee Petty. I
think the final sport could be down to Bruton Smith, Dale Inman, Humpy
Wheeler, Darrell Waltrip, Smokey Yunick, and Ned Jarrett.


  111.   Steve C. posted:
  10.23.2009 - 8:34 pm
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About the Waltrip situation: In most states if the officer can prove
that the driver is impaired, they can arrest the driver for driving
while intoxicated no matter what the driver's B.A.C. is. So either the
officer determined that Waltrip was not impaired, per the field sobriety
tests, or he got a break for being a well known NASCAR driver.


  112.   Kit posted:
  10.26.2009 - 12:12 am
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NASCAR Scene is way too biased to pay attention to. Harvick does not
belong on the list at all. The way Harvick's career is going, he'll be
known as the 2007 Daytona 500 winner and a good Buschwhacker and that's it.


  113.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  01.16.2010 - 7:05 pm
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Wow, what a dissapointing crowd at Charlotte. Might of had something to
do with the cold weather but if you looked at aerial shots of the
frontstretch, you would have thought it was a truck or nationwide race


  114.   18fan posted:
  01.26.2010 - 9:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

About that NASCAR Scene list, which I have the copy of, Jim Paschal is
way too low. I'm a huge Kyle Busch fan, but Kyle should not be above Jim
Paschal or Jack Smith. The problem with the NASCAR Scene people is that
they are biased toward current drivers.


  115.   Anonymous posted:
  05.02.2010 - 2:44 am
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i pray to god that jimmie johnson wins here at charlotte on 5/30/10, as
long as those conspirators don't get there first to fix the race and
ruin the integrity of this race


  116.   Daniel posted:
  05.22.2012 - 10:59 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

In using fastest 43: #09 Sterling Marlin, #36 Michael McDowell, #66 Dave
Blaney

Out using fastest 43: #07 Casey Mears, #08 Terry Labonte, #34 John Andretti


  117.   CBASS posted:
  02.04.2013 - 8:36 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Sponsor updates

#96 Ask.com/ Susan G. Komen for the Cure
#24 Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen/ Dupont
#39 Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
#1 DJ Hero/ Target
#43 Super 8
#33 Count Chocula/ Boo & Franken Berry
#47 Clorox

http://archives.ciastockphoto.com/cgi/images.php?group=w0935


  118.   LASTCAR posted:
  04.24.2013 - 12:56 pm
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Joe Nemechek picked up the 16th last-place finish of his career in
Saturday's NASCAR Banking 500 only at Bank of America at the Lowe's
Motor Speedway when his unsponsored #87 NEMCO Motorsports Toyota fell
out with rear end problems after completing 26 laps.

The late Thursday night qualifying session for this 500-mile race was
particularly tough for this year's last-place contenders. Despite
getting sponsorship from the Denny Hamlin Foundation, last-place leader
Dave Blaney failed to qualify for only the second time in 2009, dating
back to the Shelby 427 at Las Vegas back in March. Joining Blaney on the
DNQ list were three teams with multiple last-place finishes in 2009:
Michael McDowell in Tommy Baldwin's #36 (2 last-place finishes),
Sterling Marlin in James Finch's #09 Dodge (3 last-place finishes), and
Travis Kvapil in Bob Jenkins' #37 Dodge (4 last-place finishes).

Nemechek, on the other hand, qualified 35th for the race at a speed of
187.780 mph. He remained on the track through the race's first two
cautions before his Toyota's rear end failed 26 laps into the race.

The finish was Nemechek's third last-place finish of 2009 and first in
nearly three months, dating back to this year's Allstate 400 at the
Brickyard in July. 13 of Nemechek's 16 career last-place finishes have
come since the 1998 Daytona 500, tying him with Dave Blaney, Todd
Bodine, and Derrike Cope for the most last-place finishes collected
since that race. It is only the second time in NASCAR Sprint Cup history
that the #87 finished last at Charlotte: Randy Baker's unsponsored Baker
Racing Chevrolet finished last after losing an engine in the 1986
Oakwood Homes 500, the fall Charlotte race of that year.

2009 RANKINGS
1st) Dave Blaney (8)
2nd) Tony Raines (4)
3rd) Mike Bliss, Joe Nemechek (3)
4th) Patrick Carpentier, David Gilliland, Bobby Labonte (2)
5th) Tony Ave, Todd Bodine, P.J. Jones, Matt Kenseth, Joey Logano, Mark
Martin, Mike Wallace (1)

Visit http://brockbeard.blogspot.com/ for more.


  119.   Nascar Lead Lap Points posted:
  04.24.2014 - 11:33 am
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Withdrew
64 Mike Wallace Toyota TBA Larry Gunselman


  120.   Accutech posted:
  10.03.2015 - 7:13 am
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Sponsor update:

#1 DJ Hero/Target


  121.   Rich posted:
  09.24.2020 - 7:51 am
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Dr. Jerry Punch, Andy Petree and Dale Jarrett were the commentators.
Dave Burns, Jamie Little, Vince Welch and Shannon Spake were the pit
road reporters. Tim Brewer was in the ESPN Craftsman tech garage.


  122.   Rich posted:
  12.17.2020 - 9:27 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Joining the race coverage from the ESPN pit studio were Allen Bestwick,
Brad Daugherty and Rusty Wallace.


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