|| *Comments on the 2010 Ford 400:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. Frank posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick made the show and Kyle really helped Denny with that caution LOL Really neat final 2. BAFF posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) NASCAR is dead 3. John Royal posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson is in hurry for beating all time championship record. He is now few years older than Jeff Gordon when he won his 5th back in 2001. EIGHT IN A ROW! ._______. 4. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Jimmie Johnson is quite possibly the best driver of all time. Never thought I would see the day where a driver would win 5 championships in a row. Just unbelievable. Congratulations to Jimmie, Chad, and everyone at HMS for creating the best dynasty NASCAR and quite possibly sports has ever seen. 5. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Denny went 23 laps before choking. The 11 flat out gave this year's championship away. As you all know I give lots of respect to the 48 team, but the 11 was the fastest car this year by far on all types of tracks. Their strategy was stupid: Run conservatively for 6 of the 10 races. All that did was allow the 48 into the picture. They should have went all out and tried to stomp on their throat's. They said they'd go for it and win Martinsville. They did. They said they'd be aggressive at Texas, Phoenix, and Homestead and win. They won Texas, and dominated Phoenix before fuel mileage got them. At that point they should have had everyone so far down it wouldn't matter. Of course I guess we say today why Denny didn't want to be aggressive. He can't do it. Kevin flat took out Kyle. I don't feel sorry for Kyle, but that was frustration on Harvick's part. Two really talented drivers whose inability to control their emotions has held them back. Fitting. 6. Cooper posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson wins 5 in a row. Simply Amazing. Now that's history! He drove like a champion today. No mistakes just smooth driving. He's the best driver of the generation and the best driver I have ever seen race. It is an honour to watch such a talented driver and team at the peaks of their careers. Unfortunately there run will come to an end soon, but everybody and their grandmothers new Johnson was winning this one at the Green Flag. I have Denny predicted for one championship in his career, so I hope this isn't the one that got away. Carl Edwards will take Denny's role as main challenger next year as he and that team looks focused. Overall, a great season of racing that I hope everyone thoroughly enjoyed. 2011 will hopefully just as exciting as this year was. Congratulations to all the champions in every series, and thanks to all the posters that have made discussing these races a blast. I can't wait till February to discuss the 2011 Daytona 500 champion Brad Keselowski. :) 7. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One other thing: How 'bout Almirola!!! He'll be driving the #88 in NWide next year, but soon I think he'll be driving the #88 (or #25 if they go back to that) in Cup. Put him in a stable situation and he WILL succeed. 8. HURRRRR posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to the REAL 2010 Champion Kevin Harvick! 9. BAFF posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great performance by RPM, by the way. Too bad they'll probably flash out of existence tomorrow. 10. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am a diehard hater of the 48, but their accomplishments are incredible. After Denny won at Texas, mostn people thought Denny had just won the championship, but the 48 team out thought the 11 at Phoenix and outperformed them today. Harvick's mood completely changed after the reporter (forgot who it was) mentioned the Kyle Busch incident. As you guys know, I am a huge Kyle Busch fan, but that was Kyle's fault that he wrecked and Harvick's quote was priceless. Felt extremely bad for Truex. He had the only car that could run with Carl Edwards and had a flat tire. He might've been able to do something with Carl on that last run. Aric Almirola's first top 5 and best career finish, best finish for AJ Allmendinger since Watkins Glen and Kasey Kahne's first pole and top 10 finish for Red Bull, who had a car on the front row for the third straight year in this race. 11. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love him or hate him, you must admit what Jimmie Johnson has done in NASCAR is simply amazing, 5 straight. Carl Edwards looks like the best hope to unseat Jimmie Johnson right now for next year and we've seen how dangerous that 99 team can be when they get on a roll. Kyle Busch and Jeff Gordon End their seasons in appropriate ways, no luck for both those drivers in 2010. Also nice runs by Kasey Kahne and Aric Almirola 12. potatosalad48 posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 5 straight championships. We are in the presence of greatness. GO TEAM 48!!! 13. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Mike Ford can eat crow now. Denny had his wind to the back at Phoenix and should have dropped the dagger. When the 48 was down after the Texas race, Jimmie looked beat for sure in his interview after the race. Denny's immaturity and impatience with the Biffle racing incident proved too much for Hamlin to overcome. The aerodynamics effected the car a lot more than causal viewers of this race liked to believe. Dale Jarrett got it right when he stated Hamlin continued to struggle while running around 15th or 16th. Hamlin should have pitted twice more to make adjustments and work on the splitter some more. They could have led a lap like Jimmie did. Jimmie by comparison didn't race hard until the final 90 laps or so. ESPN made a big deal out of two bad green flag stops, but aside from that, Jimmie ran a relatively conservative race. Jimmie gained 56 points on Denny at Homestead, that's more points than Denny gained at Texas. Ultimately, Hamlin and his team lost this championship as a result of racing too hard 23 laps into this race. You can't let the 48 team off the hook as the 11 team did at Phoenix. Miscalculating the fuel mileage at Phoenix and an immature racing incident early in the race at Homestead gift wrapped a 5th consecutive championship for Jimmie Johnson and team. For the 3rd time in the 62 year history of Nascar, the points leader lost the championship in the final race. 1979. 1992. 2010. Which year was the biggest meltdown in the last race? 14. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Which year was the biggest meltdown in the last race?" That's an interesting question. It's definitely between Waltrip and Hamlin, but I think Denny takes it easily. 15. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only thing about Roush is you never know what they'll have season to season. If they transfer what they did the second half of this year into next year then Edwards, Biffle, and maybe Kenseth can be championship contenders. I hope RCR doesn't have a year like last year, because they were so good all year long this year and came up just short. How bout Bill Elliott qualifying fourth and bringing home a 15th place finish. What happened to Montoya? 16. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What happened to Montoya?" I was just about to ask that. Marty Reid said something about the 20 coming back onto the race track under one of the cautions and something happened between he and the 42, so maybe that had something to do with it. 17. Sean posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kevin flat took out Kyle. I don't feel sorry for Kyle, but that was frustration on Harvick's part. Two really talented drivers whose inability to control their emotions has held them back. Fitting." I thought it was premeditated myself. That was during an exchange of green-flag pit stops and doing what he did when he did it kept Hamlin a lap down, and ultimately behind the cars who hadn't pitted yet. So Harvick just decided to wreck whoever else was around to try and claim second place in the points. Too bad it still didn't work. 18. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #14: That is a tough question because Petty was a 6-time champion and Waltrip was the upstart. There are some parallels for sure. However, 1992 was wide open and Davey Allison was at the wrong place at the wrong time in wrecking with Ernie Irvan. '79 and '10 are about even in my book in epic letdowns in the final races. 19. Zed 3_88fan4eva posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is really amazing how people can discredit what Jimmie Johnson has done. I mean who would have ever thought in this day and with the competition the way it is that somebody would roll off five straight championchips in any form of NASCAR much less in Cup. Im not a big Jimmie Johnson fan but I without a doubt respect what he and Chad Knaus and Rick Hendrick have put together. What we are watching will never happen agian. No driver will ever roll off 5 straight titles, so folks, lets enjoy watching history being shattered. I know watching the same guy win year after year can be "boring" for some, but honestly you are not a true NASCAR fan if you dont admire and respect what the 48 team has done over the last 5 years. 20. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting notes about the three races this weekend: -In all three races the winner led the most laps. -The champions of each series finished 4th, 3rd, and 2nd with Bodine finishing fourth on Friday, Keselowski finishing 3rd on Saturday, and Johnson 2nd today. 21. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the main thing the #11 team did that hurt them was over-adjusting on the...second-to-last? I think? pitstop. At one point Denny's car was looking good, he was running ahead of Jimmie on the track, then they came in and decided to take another thwack at adjustments (Denny reportedly saying the car was "75%" to where he wanted it) - and the car went backwards after that. Ouch. * Aric Almirola gets his best career finish and first career top 5 finish with 4th. I'm rooting for him to win the NNS series championship next year (even though winning it doesn't necessarily seem a reliable barometer of future Cup Series success - Chuck Bown, Steve Grissom, David Green, I'm looking at you...). 22. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He is now a 5 time Chase champ, not the full season champion. The contrived Chase format and it's outcome for the past few years have just done so much to help Nascar with their attendance and viewers, I hope Brian France is happy with the way he is turning what was a great sport into another WWE scripted form of entertainment. 23. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Every team and every driver knows at the beginning of every season what they need to do to win that year's championship. Trying to degrade Johnson's accomplishments because of the Chase is stupid and immature. 24. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #19, I used to be one of those people, but I realized I'm lucky to be able to witness this history, so I started to really appreciate the accomplishment. Carl Edwards' 18th career win ties him with Geoff Bodine, Harry Gant, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and Matt Kenseth on the all time win list and becomes the first driver since Jeff Gordon in his record-setting 1998 season to win the last two races of the season. 25. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haters are gonna hate. Most haters hate on Jimmie because they can't handle the fact he has surpassed all of their heroes and is now quite possibly the best driver of all time. That's all there is to it. 26. JohnS posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Amazing that some could act like Jimmie Johnson is the greatest ever when he would never in a million years have legitimately won the title in 2007 or 2010 without the Chase. The changing points system from season to season, along with the schedule of races at the end of the year, and Chad Knaus, have enabled Johnson to string together this run. Along with him being the luckiest driver to ever drive a race car. He's been overrated all season, but the mindless sheep in the media are going to overrate him even more know, along with the fans who have only been following the sport since 2002. "OMG, greatest ever!!!!" Give me a break. 27. Benny posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well one of the best seasons in Nascar has come to an end. I think the have at it boys rule made the races much better to watch. 28. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We are witnessing greatness, Jimmie's won 53 races since 2002, but we are not witnessing the greatest driver ever. We are witnessing probably the best closer in the sport ever, however. 29. GDR posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two really talented drivers whose inability to control their emotions has held them back. Fitting. Right dummy, that's why Kevin's avg. finish during the Chase was 5.8 and he had the best season of his career. I am literally begging you to buy a clue because you have never had one in the entire time you've been spouting this crap. 30. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "26. JohnS posted: 11.21.10 - 6:24 pm Amazing that some could act like Jimmie Johnson is the greatest ever when he would never in a million years have legitimately won the title in 2007 or 2010 without the Chase. The changing points system from season to season, along with the schedule of races at the end of the year, and Chad Knaus, have enabled Johnson to string together this run. Along with him being the luckiest driver to ever drive a race car. He's been overrated all season, but the mindless sheep in the media are going to overrate him even more know, along with the fans who have only been following the sport since 2002. "OMG, greatest ever!!!!" Give me a break." Do you honestly think that these seasons would play out the exact same way if there was no Chase? Why don't you give me a break. Without the Chase, the teams would know that every race counts, and so wouldn't be as experimental in the first 26 races. I agree that he is not the best ever, but to say that it is because of the schedule, or because of luck, is ludicrous. 31. JakeTV370 posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A message to DSFF: Can you just take your butthurt self away from this site? Sidenote: Great run for Truex and Almirola! 32. Willy on Wheels posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No wonder NASCAR's ratings are going down, since anyone who isn't a head banging, knuckle-dragging, slobbering retard can predict who will win the championship once the green flag is dropped at the Daytona 500. This has to be one of the worst things that happened to the sport since the Japanese entered Sprint Cup. 33. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bobby Allison said before this race if Jimmie Johnson is able to pull off 5 championships in a row he would move into the territory of the greatest NASCAR driver ever. Powerful words coming from another legend. 34. racer x posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The tears of 48 haters taste delicious. 11 talked so much trash and they CHOKED!!!! 35. racer x posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Job well done for AJ Allmendinger and Aric Alimrola! 36. Pacedog posted: 11.21.2010 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At least Denny went 23 laps before choking. The 11 flat out gave this year's championship away." I love how the bias that so many people have against the JGR shows up in every race thread. It's never about how Kevin Harvick choked away the title, after a season in which his average finish was better than any season Johnson ever had, it's all about Denny Hamlin choking it away because he held the points lead for a couple of races late in the year. And this is after Jimmie Johnson has run in the top 10 in every single Chase race besides the very first. Sometimes a great team just beats everyone else, but people like DaleSrFanForever are so insecure about themselves and their favorite drivers, all they do is try to find a way to make it appear as if Johnson somehow "miraculously" came from behind to beat a "absolutely dominating" Denny Hamlin, when there is just no evidence whatsoever to support such a wild claim. Just look at the stats, like average finish, top-10's, top-5's, average starting position, driver rating, laps led, and all the other important stats, and you'll see Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick had the better years. "But ZOMG DENNY HAMLIN HAD MORE WINS" Newsflash! The driver who wins the most races doesn't always win the title and isn't indicative of how fast their cars were on every track, throughout an entire season. (And Johnson didn't exactly coast to the title on a few wins, he had 6) Amazing stuff, I know. I know DSFF likes to make calls and assumptions all based off what he "feels" but sometimes you have to actually look at stats before spouting off and making yourself look like a retard. But hey, it's not like this site makes it easy to do such a thing! Nope, Hamlin choked, plain and simple. Wasn't his crew chief, wasn't speed, wasn't the fact that Johnson is a better driver with a better team, Hamlin had a small point lead in this race, the rest of the Chase and the rest of the season meant nothing, stats mean nothing, he choked. Even with Johnson's victory, it's never about celebrating a good driver who earned something, it's all about belittling the ones who were "supposed" to win, so you can feel better about yourself because they "choked". 37. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, Mike Ford can eat crow now." Exactly. Especially considering how much more speed the 11 car had compared to the 48 car. He was outsmarted by Chad at Phoenix and he choked along with his driver today. Like somebody mentioned earlier, they should have made a better effort to repair the damage to the splitter and toe-in. At one point the caution came out and they were 16th with something like 19 cars on the lead lap. Get it fixed. The overall choke job by Denny and Mike is astounding. As far as final race meltdowns, I think this is definitely the worst. Davey's deal was just bad luck. He got damage when Brett Bodine wrecked (imagine that) and somebody didn't check up behind him. Then Ernie cut a rear right in front of him. And Darrell had less of a cushion, although he probably had the worst overall late SEASON meltdwon, starting when he wrecked himself in the Southern 500 trying to put the second place runner, Pearson, 2 laps down. 38. New 14&88 Fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sure is alot of hate on for the 48 team, I'm not of a JJ fan either but until some one dethrones him at the end of next year(My money's on Carl or Denny)let's just sit back and accept the fact that we're witnessing history.Congrats to Jimmie, Chad and the entire Rick Hendrick Organization on a well earned championship and outstanding year. Denny was looking racey early on but after the contact with Biffle his car was never the same...At least they can say they made the 48 team work for this year's championship and try to carry their momentum over to next year.Eight wins and being in the thick of the chase battle right up to the end is nothing to be ashamed of. Impressive runs for Aric Almirola and The Dinger, hopefully RPM manages to survive the off season.And how about Kasey Kahne in the Red Bull #83, winning the pole and getting a top ten out of it...things are definitely looking up for them for 2011. "The only thing about Roush is you never know what they'll have season to season. If they transfer what they did the second half of this year into next year then Edwards, Biffle, and maybe Kenseth can be championship contenders." That's true, but when Roush is pretty good at carrying over momentum from season to season, so I do look for big things next year from all the Roush drivers(yes, that includes David Regan too). 39. Bronco posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Final Cup race for: - Harvick with the Shell/Pennzoil colors, and he closed out his sponsorship with his third straight Homestead top 5 and 26th of the season. He won their first race together in dramatic fashion, then went over 3 years without a win before this year when he was completely dominant. In between that massive winless streak, he picked up wins in the All Star Race and won the Bud Shootout twice. I'm looking forward to seeing his black Budweiser car next year. - Kurt Busch in the #2 Blue Deuce. He pounded the wall several times during this race and had his worst ever finish in the chase. He won eight races with the car, most of them he flat out dominated. He takes over the Pennzoil sponsorship next year with a new number, the #22. The #22 will return to the track for the first time since Dave Blaney drove it at Homestead 2008 before BDR folded. - Elliott Sadler with the #19 team. His tenure there was a colossal disappointment, and it was the only Cup team that he has driven for that he didn't win with. His best shot at winning was the 2009 Daytona 500 if the rain had come a lap sooner. Elliott moves to the Nationwide series next year, but I hope to see him in Cup one day again. - Tony Stewart with Old Spice. The official deodorant of NASCAR is leaving the sport after winning a few Nationwide races and the Cup race at the Glen last year as sponsor. Too bad, I liked their candy apple red color. - Jeff Gordon with Dupont as his major sponsor for most of the races. He won everything that was there to win before falling into a slump after the 2007 season, and now has 2 winless seasons in only three years. - Bill Elliott as a Cup driver, I'm not too sure if he'll return for yet another year of part time driving. - Marcos Ambrose with JTG racing, the only team that he has ever known. I'm hoping that he will still have a ride two months from now. - Bobby Labonte's miserable, bounce around from ride to ride season. He went the whole year without a top 10, a first for him, while driving for four different owners while doing some start and parks next year. Next year he will at least have sponsorship to get through all the races. - Dale Earnhardt Jr and Lance McGrew's partnership. There is no way he's going to show up next year with the same crew chief, his season actually got worse as it progressed, and he dropped two spots in the points to 21st (his lowest rank of the year) with a terrible run at one of his worst tracks. His best finish at Homestead came as a ROOKIE back in 2000 when it was unbanked, since then it has all gone downhill. The best race for the two was the Daytona 500, where they started on the outside front row and rallied to finish 2nd, but it was all downhill from there. Dale Jr went the entire season without a DNF, however he dropped 10 spots in the points after the second Daytona race while going winless for the second straight year, a first for him. - Scott Slow and Sideways Sam's Cup careers. They showed pretty much no improvement whatsoever during their time in NASCAR. The amount of cautions per race should go down a bit now. After going almost three years without a win, Carl rebounds to win the final two races of the year. Great to see a class act like Carl win two in a row, I'm hoping he returns to 2008 form next year. He closed out the year with the second best average finish, and with over 400 laps led after leading only 6 the first 2/3 of the season. Great run for Aric Almirola, picking up only his second top 10 of his young career. He'll be in Cup by 2012 for sure. Heartbreak for Hamlin to lose the championship in the final race of the season. I'm honestly not surprised because he basically gave up the slim points lead that he had entering Homestead by qualifying so bad, and damaging his car didn't do him any favors. Regardless, 2010 ended up being his best season in terms of wins and overall points scored. It's sickening to hear Marty Reid compare JJ to Earnhardt and Petty, talking about how he got to 5 championships sooner than they did. 40. The Real Thomas posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Posters 22, 26, and 31 have it dead on. Enough said. This whole farce is laughable. Comparing anything that has happened in NASCAR from 2004-present to what took place from 1949-2003 is as dumb as pounding a square peg into a round hole. I don't even spite Jimmie Johnson as much as I spite his cheating crew chief and the way NASCAR lets it slide sometimes, the media who fawns over the whole team, the fact that they have at least double the money and resources as most of the other teams, and the ludicrous circumstances by which he wins the cup every year, not to mention how boring it is to see the same guy win all of the time. It is somewhat admirable that one team can single-handedly beat the system five times in a row, but in no shape or form does it come close to the amount of praise that some give it, nor does it compare to the championships of old, and it certainly does not mean that Johnson is the best driver or even one of the best. That said, this has been the most competitive season since 2004/2005, and I hope it continues. I just hope that some changes are made to the chase format next season as has been rumored and that some of the teams can continue to step it up now that the new car has been run steadily and figured out more. 41. Mikey posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As far as final race meltdowns, I think this is definitely the worst. Davey's deal was just bad luck." Wow. Just... wow. How long have you actually been watching racing? And I don't count reading about older seasons on the internet as "watching". Worst final race meltdown ever? So do you not count drivers who were 2nd or 3rd in points with a legitimate shot to win and choking as a meltdown, only when the leader loses a small points lead? I'm amazed how many people can't put something into context because it just happened. Apparently Jimmie Johnson is now the greatest driver to ever live, and Denny Hamlin is the biggest choke artist in history. And the New Orleans Saints are the great Super Bowl champion of all time, the Lakers are the greatest dynasty ever, the San Francisco Giants will win many world series in the coming years, the Indianapolis Colts are the biggest chokers in football history, the Texas Rangers are absolute failures, etc, etc. A lot of people on this site must be 20 years old or younger, just judging by how dumb the stuff they say is. Don't worry, when you grow up you'll look back and be able see things for what they actually were, instead of living in the moment. Kids these days, sheesh. 42. The Real Thomas posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, congrats to Carl for winning the race and to Denny and Kevin for at least trying to make the chase somewhat interesting. 43. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Trying to degrade Johnson's accomplishments because of the Chase is stupid and immature." True or False: It is easier to win a championship under the Chase format, than the previous season-long point system. True or False: The chase has produced a champion that truly deserved the title in every year of it's existence. True or False: Jimmie Johnson (5 titles in Chase era, 53 wins) is better than Dale Earnhardt (7 titles in modern era pre-Chase, 76 wins). True or False: Jimmie Johnson has accomplished more than Jeff Gordon. True or False: Chad Knaus is a better crew chief than Mike Ford True or False: Jimmie Johnson has the overall fastest cars for the past 5 years. 44. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby Allison said before this race if Jimmie Johnson is able to pull off 5 championships in a row he would move into the territory of the greatest NASCAR driver ever. Powerful words coming from another legend." Oh really? Then I'm sure that you'll agree with his recent statements regarding Kyle Busch too: "I have a lot of respect for Kyle Busch, especially on the same weekend to get out of a truck and into a Nationwide car and out of Nationwide car and into a Cup car and perform like he does,? Allison said. ??Whatever he??s in, he drives 100 percent?Nobody is better. He really is doing the best job, start to finish." And here's the link if you think I'm lying: http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cup-nascar-hall-candidates-lists-should-start-with-bobby-allison/ So.... thoughts? Still feel the same way about Bobby's assessment? 45. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now begins the great debate: Where does JJ rank all time? 5 in a row is 5 in a row. It doesn't matter how much the point system sucks (and this current one sucks a lot), like somebody said earlier, everyone knew going into the season how the champion would be determined. So I don't penalize JJ for thriving under the cha$e format, the brain child of Brainless Brian himself. I do penalize him a bit for being in an era with less championship caliber drivers. Most of his top competition is either mentally unstable in the heat of battle (the Busch Brothers, Harvick, Carl, Stewart, JPM, Hamlin), distracted by way too many outside interests (Gordon, June, Stewart, Harvick, Kyle), or just not that good. He is definitely a benefactor of the stagnation of talent in NASCAR due to the NWide Series, which was once the breeding ground for up and comers, being taken over by Cup guys looking to hog extra spotlight time or artificially inflate their "NASCAR win total". And yes, this includes my guy, Brad K. I blame him as much as anyone. He hasn't really had any new rivals pop up. Look at his first title in '06: the four drivers behind him in points were Kenseth, Hamlin, Harvick, and June (remember those days?). The drivers behind him this time? Hamlin, Harvick, Carl, and Kenseth. 4 of the 5 are the same. But with that being said, this championship definitely propels him upward because of how he won it. He didn't have the fastest car. The 11 outclassed in speed and the 29 outclassed him in consistency. Most of the great champions had to grind one out while a faster team was breathing down their necks, and even beating them most of the time. They had to grind it out to be champs. Petty over Darrell in '79, Darrell over Bill in '85, Dale over Mark in '90. Of course it is hard to judge by championships because if Pearson had run full schedules for his career, JJ might only be halfway to his total. Cale also ran partial schedules for portions of his prime. All in all, I think he is undeniably in the Top 10 easily. It's hard to compare eras, but by any calculation, he is undoubtably in the Top 10 all time. In the post Earnhardt era, he is far and away the best. Time will tell, because he still has a lot of years left in what is traditionally a driver's prime (29-39). 46. awesomegordonfan posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Kevin and Carl for the simultaneous backflips! Oh...never mind. o_o Everyone can agree that no one, I mean no one, can win 6 in a row. Almirola will, hands down, be the 2011 NNS champion. DSFF, stop being Rusty with "flat". 47. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He is definitely a benefactor of the stagnation of talent in NASCAR due to the NWide Series, which was once the breeding ground for up and comers, being taken over by Cup guys looking to hog extra spotlight time or artificially inflate their "NASCAR win total"." Yep, everyone knows that this problem which has only existed for the past 4 or 5 years, is clearly what's stopping drivers aged 18-23 from coming in and beating one of the all time greats. Totally spot on as usual, DaleSrFanForever. Everyone knows drivers right out of the Nationwide and Busch series always win titles in their first few seasons. "He didn't have the fastest car. The 11 outclassed in speed" You keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night. 48. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But with that being said, this championship definitely propels him upward because of how he won it. He didn't have the fastest car. The 11 outclassed in speed and the 29 outclassed him in consistency. Most of the great champions had to grind one out while a faster team was breathing down their necks, and even beating them most of the time." Even beating them most of the time? Then how did Johnson out-finish Hamlin in 7 of the 10 Chase races? 49. JP88 posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow props to JJ on number 5...only one can imagine how many in a row he could of one. Jimmie has been in contention for a title every single year, even his rookie year. If he did get screwed at Dega when Mark hit a rock and veered into his car in the pace laps and then the race went caution-free. and then in 04 and 05 we all know what happened @ Homestead. Jimmie could be a 8-time champ for all we know...I'm not a fan and really don't like to see Jimmie win because I think both him and Chad are cocky but I actually hopes he keeps it up, I mean he already made history he might as well continue. Much respect to the 48 team, congrats 50. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the golden kernel of truth and is the main reason why Jimmie and team have thrived in the last 5 years: "So I don't penalize JJ for thriving under the cha$e format, the brain child of Brainless Brian himself. I do penalize him a bit for being in an era with less championship caliber drivers. Most of his top competition is either mentally unstable in the heat of battle (the Busch Brothers, Harvick, Carl, Stewart, JPM, Hamlin), distracted by way too many outside interests (Gordon, June, Stewart, Harvick, Kyle), or just not that good. He is definitely a benefactor of the stagnation of talent in NASCAR due to the NWide Series, which was once the breeding ground for up and comers, being taken over by Cup guys looking to hog extra spotlight time or artificially inflate their "NASCAR win total." There are fewer championship caliber drivers in the Chase Era 2004-Present than in any era from 1980-2003. Can anyone provide a truer explanation for Team 48's sustained dominance? 51. Labonte47 posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jimmie could be a 8-time champ for all we know..." If you're going to play the "what-if" game, or the "if not for this one thing" game, you might as well give Jeff Gordon 6 or 7 titles, Dale Earnhardt 8 or 9, and take away a few from some others. Hypothetically, a lot of drivers could be the greatest of all time, if not for this one thing that totally screwed them over. Mark Martin would probably have a few titles. 52. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two words, Cheater Chad! 53. RickyBobby posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Can anyone provide a truer explanation for Team 48's sustained dominance?" Fastest cars, best crew chief, luck. 54. Evan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well three drivers had a shot at it this time and Johnson beat them. Hamlin killed his chances with a poor poor qualifying run when they clearly had a legit shot at this thing and the Phoenix fuel mileage miscalculation was inexcusable. Hamlin seriously gave this one away and even he knows it, because Harvick needad a lot to go his way. The 11 team talked the talk but dropped the ball just like I thought. Now on to Happy Harvick, he actually fared much better until taking out Kyle Busch in the scuffle but its racing and Harvick was trying to win the title. Busch's nasty fire was not something to write home about. Harvick did finish third but out of contention. As for Johnson, he gets the fifth title. For him to do that is unprecedented, you saw greatness. Many people do not like his greatness but this was not easy to win and again they did it. Aftermath:Again, have we found anyone to dethrone them? Question is, have we found anyone who can? Dale Jr. is not relevant anymore, if he was on another team he could possibly give Johnson a run for his money. Carl Edwards looked great in the last two races but he still could struggle. That team is too up and down for me to give them title hopes. The last is Denny Hamlin, it's said you have to lose a title before you win one but Carl Edwards has showed us that there is a hangover when you challenge the champs as he has faltered since finishing 2nd to JOhnson. So Denny has to avoid that slump is he expects to take down the champs and he can talk all he wants, just shut up and stop trying to cash bad checks with your mouth. The title goes through the 48. 55. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If anyone is going to dethrone Jimmie Johnson next year it will be Carl Edwards. Roush has finally got that #99 car going in the right direction. Lookout for Carl Edwards in 2011 56. Sean posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Disagree. I think Jeff Gordon faced fewer championship challengers in his run than Johnson did. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders during Gordon's prime (1995-2001)? J. Burton, Earnhardt, Jarrett, B. Labonte, T. Labonte, Martin, Stewart, R. Wallace That's really about it, and Rusty and Stewart may be generous. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders at some point during Johnson's prime (2004-present, did that to keep it equal to the seven year period listed above)? Biffle, Ku. Busch, Ky. Busch, Edwards, J. Gordon, Hamlin, Harvick, Kenseth, Martin, Stewart I think the period Gordon dominated and the first few years of the '80s (as Petty was in decline, the other legends were going part-time, and Martin, Wallace, Kulwicki, Davey Allison, Irvan, Jarrett, Gant, G. Bodine, Rudd, Richmond) had yet to arrive or emerge in a big way had the least competitive depth in the modern era. I think Johnson's era had more competitive depth than the early '80s or late '90s. There's a reason Gordon and Waltrip had 10-win seasons then. I wouldn't say this is the weakest period simply because all the major multi-car teams have two or three threats, while in earlier decades, the major teams had one team apiece. But as for winning the titles? It is because Knaus knows how to set up for the chase better than the other crew chiefs and most of Johnson's challengers aren't very mature. Harvick and Hamlin were both rather stupid today. 57. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finishes of the top 3 points guys in the last two races: Johnson: 5th and 2nd Harvick: 6th and 3rd Hamlin: 12th and 14th Also would like to know who you guys think was at fault for the Hamlin-Biffle incident. 58. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to JJ on winning his 5th consecutive Sprint Cup championship. I'm not a fan of his, and I actually used to hate the 48 team. Now, I have nothing but respect for what they've done while having a neutral feeling about them as a race fan. And he proved that he deserved it this year by racing his ass off after bad pit stops. And as for naming him one of the all-time greats, I think that's a reasonable prediction, but the only things I would say to counter that would be to remember that other teams haven't been stable like the 48 has during this time. Gibbs, Roush and RCR. These three teams are ones which fans expected to rival the 48, and they came up short and then faltered afterwards (especially Roush, even though they look like they may be making a comeback). Way to go, Aric Almirola!!! In his final race driving RPM's #9, he goes out and runs strong, finishing 4th. I'm telling you, put this guy in the right situation and he will win races in Cup. Kevin Harvick flat out wrecks Kyle Busch for no good reason. Should anyone be surprised by this? I don't feel the least bit sorry for Busch, but that's Kevin Harvick for ya. And it's pretty ironic that he's had feuds with all 3 Gibbs drivers this year. 59. Ryan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kevin flat took out Kyle. I don't feel sorry for Kyle, but that was frustration on Harvick's part. Two really talented drivers whose inability to control their emotions has held them back. Fitting." He did take him out, but Kyle was trying to f with Kevin all day, and Kyle was using it as an excuse to do so because his connection to Hamlin as a teammate. "For the 3rd time in the 62 year history of Nascar, the points leader lost the championship in the final race. 1979. 1992. 2010. Which year was the biggest meltdown in the last race?" That's a tough one... I would say this year's was pretty bad considering Hamlin could have taken a comfortable lead from Phoenix had they played their cards right, and then he messed up today early in the race... Allison won his race at Phoenix in '92, but got caught up in a wreck by Irvin at Atlanta. However, Allison didn't have any business running where he was at that day. One could argue Bill Elliott had a bigger meltdown at the end of '92 with his finishes than anyone. Elliott's crew during the '92 finale didn't do a very good job of calculating that day either. And Waltrip messed up a couple of times during the season in '79 to really cost him. "I do penalize him a bit for being in an era with less championship caliber drivers. Most of his top competition is either mentally unstable in the heat of battle (the Busch Brothers, Harvick, Carl, Stewart, JPM, Hamlin), distracted by way too many outside interests (Gordon, June, Stewart, Harvick, Kyle), or just not that good." The Real Thomas said it right in post 38, Hendrick has more resources and money to spend. Why do you continue to say Harvick is unstable? Everyone thought at times last year that Harvick and Childress were finished, and they had no idea where he would end up. He had an extremely incredible year this year. He did a lot better than I thought he would this year with the resources he has. In most cases this year it would have been a title year for him considering his average finish (a lot of people consider him the champ with the old rules). He reminds me more of Earnhardt than anyone else out there, especially by his starting average and finish average. You know good and well DSFF that Childress has hardly ever the best equipment, but the best driver (Earnhardt and Harvick). This was a great year for the 29 and RCR. It was one of the best season's ever for RCR. As for the race itself: You just knew by looking at Hamlin last week at the end of the Phoenix race that they were beaten. He couldn't contain himself the whole day. He tried to make it three wide with Biffle and misjudged that. A major unclutch performance down the stretch for him. They blew this title, plain and simple. I still can't believe the speeding penalty Harvick got. He came down pit road behind two cars that were in front of him, how in the world did he speed? He had a lightning fast pit stop and he would have been the leader, while Johnson and Hamlin would have been 8th and 9th, just where he needed them. They didn't even say he had speeded down pit road until after the commercial until Nascar had seen he took the lead. Harvick said over radio, "You know how they do though." Making reference as to how Nascar makes up their rules as they go. Now, I'm not saying Kevin would have won the title because of this, but this could have put pressure on Johnson and Hamlin to try and maybe race harder and cause them to make mistakes and perhaps overdrive their car. It would have definitely made things interesting, but we all know Big Brother was watching over everything. Too bad for Harvick, but he had a tremendous year considering last year. Harvick had enough of Busch running all over him and racing him like an idiot just because Busch was Hamlin's teammate. Harvick was under control all year and raced hard every race. Dale would be proud of his performance in his old car, no doubt about that. Jimmie Johnson: Although I don't like him, I would rather see him win than Hamlin, I liked Hamlin when he started out, but as he started to have success, he seems like he isn't appreciative of people. He threw his crew and team under the bus last week, and acts like his crap doesn't stink. I'd rather see a a-hole win than a prick and a-hole win. Johnson and his team ran a smart race today and did what he had to do to win. They had decent pit stops, led a lap, and really raced when they had to. Even though it gets boring for everyone that he wins a lot, it was nice to see a close battle between three drivers. I respect him more now than I did the last few years, because they had to race against tougher competition and they had to out smart the 11. Although, I do believe sometimes they get the call from Nascar where they have the big sponsors and Henrick has the most money, he seems to be a better face for Nascar than others would be, but that's not saying much, because he can be a a-hole at times. 60. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Sean, Ky. Busch is not a legitimate title contender for a myriad of reasons. Guys like Busch, Harvick, Edwards, and Hamlin are not mature enough to win a title and that is what separates the potential title contenders in Gordon's and Earnhardt's primes from Johnson's prime. Gordon faced more consistent championship contenders/caliber drivers year in and year out. Add Ricky Rudd and Sterling Marlin to the list of championship caliber drivers during Gordon's era (1995-2001). "I think Jeff Gordon faced fewer championship challengers in his run than Johnson did. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders during Gordon's prime (1995-2001)? J. Burton, Earnhardt, Jarrett, B. Labonte, T. Labonte, Martin, Stewart, R. Wallace That's really about it, and Rusty and Stewart may be generous. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders at some point during Johnson's prime (2004-present, did that to keep it equal to the seven year period listed above)? Biffle, Ku. Busch, Ky. Busch, Edwards, J. Gordon, Hamlin, Harvick, Kenseth, Martin, Stewart." 61. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I slightly disagree Sean, but that is a thoughtful list and we can go down 10 or so drivers from Johnson's, Earnhardt's, and Gordon's prime and compare their pluses and minuses. That is something DSSF or Talon64 could do. 62. Ryan posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think Jeff Gordon faced fewer championship challengers in his run than Johnson did. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders during Gordon's prime (1995-2001)? J. Burton, Earnhardt, Jarrett, B. Labonte, T. Labonte, Martin, Stewart, R. Wallace That's really about it, and Rusty and Stewart may be generous. How many drivers were legitimate title contenders at some point during Johnson's prime (2004-present, did that to keep it equal to the seven year period listed above)? Biffle, Ku. Busch, Ky. Busch, Edwards, J. Gordon, Hamlin, Harvick, Kenseth, Martin, Stewart" Ok, lets consider 1998 a dominant season where no one had a chance vs. Gordon, it was him and everyone else. 1995 was legit because he had to deal with Earnhardt, who was coming off 4 titles over 5 years... Everyone raced Earnhardt that whole year like he was the man to beat, and many of the drives like Rusty Wallace didn't think Gordon would keep up his pace. 1997 was legit because he had to deal with Jarrett and Martin, 2001 wasn't legit because his main competition died in the first race and that's the year the tires changed during the year that had Bobby Labonte baffled. Jimmie Johnson has used the Chase to his advantage because most of his better tracks are in the Chase. He would have three titles the old way. He would still be chasing Gordon who has six. So we are comparing Gordon vs. Johnson, so this has to tell us that Rick Hendrick has more resources and more money to do better than any other team. Since 1995, they have 10 titles! Joe Gibbs has three since 2000, with Roush having two, and Yates winning his lone title in 1999. I believe Johnson has had better competition, but that's not saying a lot. A lot of teams have been down during his success. Roush had some down years, Childress definitely has had some down years until this year, Gibbs has been the only team to show something, but his drivers have been head cases or a new rookie, Penske has been like a roller coaster, but the only thing that has stayed constant the last 15 years has been Hendrick Motorsports because of their ability to spend and to make even more money every year and to get the best in the business at every job possible. Jimmie Johnson and jeff Gordon have it easy. Mark Martin had a great year last year, and a decent one this year. Earnhardt was even great in '08 for a while. 63. martin-n-rusty posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For these saying Jimmie is a "fake" champ, what's to say that in the years he "wouldn't" he champ, that strategies and plans would be different? What's to say that maybe the 48 team would plan on going all out during the season? You can say "what if" but the reality is Jimmie is a 5 in a row champ, no matter how you spin it. 64. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darrell Waltrip just called Jimmie Johnson the best driver of all time. Unfortunately for the #48 haters, people who have actually been there and done it disagree with you. 65. Ryan posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darrell Waltrip is irrelevant when it comes to making opinions. He is too struck on himself as well. He thought he should have been in the first class of the HOF. He won all his titles when Jr. had the best equipment much like Hendrick. There's a comparison. 66. DaleJrFan19 posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We may be witnessing history, but it doesn't stop it from being BORING! It's the same BS every year. I'm sick and tired of Jimmie Johnson winning it year in and year out and "making history" (By the way, had the chase not been implemented, there was no way in hell that he would have made up a 306 point deficit in ten races this year, 308 in 08 (to be fair, he would have come up 16 points short), and 410 in 07. And don't give me that "well if there was no chase, Jimmie would have raced differently" BS because we don't have results for "what-if" scenarios, we have results for what actually happened. Even then, the results wouldn't have been that different, because everyone else would have been driving differently as well). Some of you may like watching the same thing over and over, more power to you. I, however, do not. Is that a crime? "Haters are gonna hate. Most haters hate on Jimmie because they can't handle the fact he has surpassed all of their heroes and is now quite possibly the best driver of all time. That's all there is to it. " My hero got a single win, had probably one of the unluckiest carrers, which ended up being cut short the day I went to see him race. His name was Jerry Nadeau (Wha? Not Dale Jr?!). So yeah, it's not that hard to pass him statistic wise, but I don't care. Have you thought that maybe I don't like him because he's making this sport boring and predictable? Of course not, it's because he's better than Jerry Nadeau! With that said, the season wasn't that bad. There were a few highlights I could think of throughout the season (the 500, both Tally races, and the 2nd New Hampshire and Texas races), and the points battle was exciting to some degree. I guess it was better than the last two. Can't remember any further back than that, though it probably was better than a good amount of the late 2000's seasons. And of course, we got the lulziest candidate for Rookie of the Year of all time, way to go Kevin Conway! Are there even gonna be any contenders next year? You may now hound me. 67. irony posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JJ's the best driver of his era, and better than J Gordon. That's it. Waltrip is just a chatter box who hops on a different bandwagon every few years. 68. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add on to post #37: -Last race for Aric Almirola in the #9. He went out with a bang. -Last race for Paul Menard in the #98. He'll go to the #27 RCR car next year. -Last race for Kes in the #12. He'll drive the Blue Deuce next year. 69. Kowski posted: 11.21.2010 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to JJ and the 48 team on their 5th straight title. No doubt JJ is one of the all time greats in NASCAR. BUT what really ticks me off is all of NASCARS stooges acting like his wins are equal to those who won full season titles. THEY ARE NOT!!! Without the chase JJ is a two timer and everyone knows it. Don't blame JJ and his team, they just take advantage of a made for TV ratings championship. Regrettably the chase isn't delivering a true full season champion or the interest/TV ratings NASCAR would like. So don't be surprised when NASCAR tweaks the points/chase yet again. 70. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DW seems to be on a different bandwagon every few races. In my opinion, had Harvick not gotten the BS penalty and gone on to win, Jimmie still would've finished 3rd and won the championship. The championship was decided in my mind when Hamlin got together with Biffle. Still, Harvick is the driver of the year in my opinion, even if he didn't win a title. Find me another driver with an average start of 21.0 and an average finish of 8.7. Him going from having 5 top 5s and 9 top 10s last year to 3 wins, 16 top 5s and 26 top 10s this year is incredible. Not since Alan Kulwicki from 1991 to 1992 has a driver had a turnaround like this with basically the same team. Even Earnhardt in 1992 was better than Harvick was last year before Dale won the 1993 title. He had almost a career low in average start and a career high in average finish. He also scored his third top 5 points finish in the last three even numbered years. 71. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Darrell Waltrip is irrelevant when it comes to making opinions." Oh yes. An 83 time cup winner and a 3 time champion is totally irrelevant when it comes to making an opinion about a driver. *Hence the sarcasm* "My hero got a single win, had probably one of the unluckiest carrers, which ended up being cut short the day I went to see him race. His name was Jerry Nadeau (Wha? Not Dale Jr?!). So yeah, it's not that hard to pass him statistic wise, but I don't care. Have you thought that maybe I don't like him because he's making this sport boring and predictable? Of course not, it's because he's better than Jerry Nadeau!" I apologize, I should have worded that a bit differently. I just get so sick and damn tired of people trying to devalue Jimmie Johnson's amazing success he has had in this sport. I don't look at it in the perspective of the same driver is winning over and over again, I look at it in the perspective of we are witnessing history, so I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts instead of whine and complain about it. Everyone has their own opinion about it though. 72. BAFF posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are people like DSFF still honestly lumping Harvick into the "WIN IT OR BIN IT" crowd after being the most consistently good driver all year long? Have any of these people watched a race since 2001? 73. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't forget 2003 when he also won the chase. 6 time champ! 74. Bronco posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Kevin Conway clinched his 2010 Cup ROTY title, as if there were any doubt about who was going to win it. Big heartbreaker for Truex to have that problem on one of the restarts, which ended his streak of four consecutive top 10s at Homestead. He had about the only car that could keep pace with Carl. His first season in the #56 NAPA car has to be considered a major disappointment, he only had one more top 10 than with the #1 team and he finished only one spot higher in the points. Not only that, but his old team win three times and contended for the win in several other races. Jimmie's 5th "championship" and he how was able to pluck Jeff Gordon's pit crew at will pretty much proves that HMS exists solely for his benefit. He won 6 races and the "championship" while the other three went winless. I don't think Jeff, Mark or Dale will ever experience the success that they deserve when all the resources of the organization go towards one car. Also Matt Kenseth's season has got to be one of the weakest top 5 seasons ever. Carl's win and strong season overall proves again why he's the best that Ford has right now. 75. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Biffle's right up there with Carl as far as Ford's best goes. 76. Ryan posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh yes. An 83 time cup winner and a 3 time champion is totally irrelevant when it comes to making an opinion about a driver. *Hence the sarcasm*" Yeah, we notice the gay sarcasm, we also notice that Waltrip has a man crush on Jimmie, or whoever wins, he considered Jeff Gordon the best ever in 2007. It was Tony Stewart before, he changes his mind more John Kerry does. He gets on the bandwagon all the time. 77. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have a lot of respect for Kyle Busch, especially on the same weekend to get out of a truck and into a Nationwide car and out of Nationwide car and into a Cup car and perform like he does,? Allison said. ??Whatever he??s in, he drives 100 percent?Nobody is better. He really is doing the best job, start to finish." "So.... thoughts? Still feel the same way about Bobby's assessment?" Yes, I agree with Bobby as well. As much as I dislike Kyle Busch and his pompous immaturity, and his constant hogging of the minor leagues, he has amazing talent. Even Jeff Gordon said he wished he had Kyle's talent. However, talent alone doesn't bring you greatness. It takes a lot more than just talent to succeed in this sport. That's what separates "the greats" from the "potential greats". 78. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, the trolls have come out: "Wow. Just... wow. How long have you actually been watching racing? And I don't count reading about older seasons on the internet as "watching". " For your information I was watching the '92 Hooters 500 live. And way to blow things out of proportion. The guy had a points lead, obviously had a fast car by the way he rocketed through the field early only to screw himself before 24 laps were even complete. He was on the fastest team and threw it all away. "Yep, everyone knows that this problem which has only existed for the past 4 or 5 years, is clearly what's stopping drivers aged 18-23 from coming in and beating one of the all time greats. Totally spot on as usual, DaleSrFanForever. Everyone knows drivers right out of the Nationwide and Busch series always win titles in their first few seasons." It hasn't only existed since for a few years, it has existed since 2001 when NASCAR dropped all the old bullrings from the Busch circuit and made all but 5 or 6 races a year companion events. It took a while to manifest itself, but only one rookie since 2006 (Hamlin) has made a true impact on this sport. Issues like this don't show up overnight. But it showed itself big time right when JJ started winning championships. There is no new blood on the horizon to unseat these guys. As I said, in his first title year ('06) and this year, 3 of the 4 drivers behind him are the exact same. And yes, some people out of the Busch Series won titles early in their Cup careers. Gordon (3rd year), Kenseth, Stewart, Kurt Busch (4th year), JJ (5th year). Think of it like this: In 1991 Earnhardt had just won his 5th Cup. Gordon has just completed his first full Busch season with no wins and had made zero Cup starts. There appeared to be no end in sight for Earnhardt's domination, as he would, not surprisingly, win 2 of the next 3 titles. That is where he was in '91. 4 years later he lost what would have been his record breaking 8th title and, at the time, a record tying 3rd straight to that same Gordon kid. This is the sort of thing JJ hasn't had to face. "Then how did Johnson out-finish Hamlin in 7 of the 10 Chase races?" Because of the 11's stupid conservative strategy, fuel mileage at Phoenix, and their epic choke at Homestead. Why, when you have the fastest car, would you take it easy for the first 5 races, then say "we're gonna go fast at Martinsville and win", back it up, then decide to go fast in just the last 3 races? Of course they had issues in two of those races so they left themselves no cushion, and it doomed them. When the 11 wanted to turn it on, they did and thensome. But, for whatever reason, they chose not to. 79. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll give my take on Harvick tomorrow. I'm tired and want to go to bed right now. 80. Mike posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah, we notice the gay sarcasm, we also notice that Waltrip has a man crush on Jimmie, or whoever wins, he considered Jeff Gordon the best ever in 2007. It was Tony Stewart before, he changes his mind more John Kerry does. He gets on the bandwagon all the time." In 2007 you could make the case Jeff Gordon was one of the best drivers of all time. He was on a roll and it looked like he was a lock to win a 5th championship. Mostly everyone thought the old Jeff Gordon was back and he was going to dominate the sport once again. Unfortunately that ended up not happening. Jeff Gordon was my first favorite driver before I became a fan of Dale Jr. It's just as tough for me to admit Jimmie has surpassed Jeff, but the fact is he has, unless Jeff can put up 90's like numbers again before he retires. It will take time, but with time the haters will come to respect what Jimmie Johnson has accomplished in this sport. 81. Eric posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike, Darrell Waltrip is known to change his mind on who his favorite driver is, or the best driver is. Darrell Waltrip is known play favorites as a commentator. Darrell really has credibility issues as far as calling a driver the best ever. DW always has his favorite of the week or the favorite of the month. Darrell had been on the Dale Jr. bandwagon, Kyle Busch Bandwagon, Tony Stewart Bandwagon, Jeff Gordon bandwagon, Carl Edwards Bandwagon, and the Jimmie Johnson Bandwagon. Darrell always goes with the driver with a hot hand in cup racing. 82. 18fan posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think my post 57 is a pretty good showing of why Jimmie won the championship. I wanted Harvick to win if Kyle couldn't, which was pretty obvious he couldn't after Martinsville, but it just wasn't meant to be. I will spend my offseason probably watching my old DVDs that I have. 83. Eric posted: 11.21.2010 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Kevin Harvick would have been a top 2 in points if there was no chase. Kevin gave RCR their most top 5's in a year since Dale Earnhardt Sr. had 19 top 5's in 31 races in 1995. Kevin had 16 top 5's this yearKevin also give RCR their most top 10's in a year ever, but Dale Sr. would have got Kevin beat if Dale had 36 races instead 31 races. Kevin also gave RCR their best finishing average since Dale Sr. had a 8.0 finishing average. Kevin had a 8.7 finishing average. I really don't what the 48 teams points position would have been without a chase because the 48 team wouldn't have done any experimenting. I think Jimmie might have won without the chase without experimenting because Kevin didn't put down enough top 5's to counter Jimmie's win total and Jimmie had more top 5's. The only way Jimmie wouldn't have won is the fact Jimmie carried his pit crew. The Pit Screw sucked this year out of the 48. Denny Hamlin really had no business being a champion this year. I would have compared him to Kurt Busch in 2004 if he became a champ this year. Denny had a very bad start to the year and Denny had problems getting good finishes out of tracks that he has struggled at since he was a rookie. What Kevin Harvick needs to do next for winning the Championship is the following things: improve his starting position, lead more laps, and channel in the 1994 Dale Earnhardt Sr. The 1994 version of Dale Earnhardt Sr. top 2 his competition to death in that year and in top 3's as a whole. The 1994 season wasn't dale's best year, but Dale had a lot of top 2's that year despite having only 4 wins. 84. GDR posted: 11.22.2010 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) here's DSFF's take on Kevin Harvick blah blah blah not Dale Earnhardt blah blah blah punk/hothead blah blah blah distracted by KHI and other outside interests blah blah blah can't handle the pressure there bonehead, now you don't have to waste yours and everybody's else time. 85. joey2448 posted: 11.22.2010 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I remember reading something (on nascar.com, I think) in 2008 after Johnson won his third title, asking readers if it was possible if Jimmie could win four in a row. I remember thinking no it couldn't be done. Now, today, he has won five consecutive. Incredible. 86. Ryan posted: 11.22.2010 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "here's DSFF's take on Kevin Harvick blah blah blah not Dale Earnhardt blah blah blah punk/hothead blah blah blah distracted by KHI and other outside interests blah blah blah can't handle the pressure there bonehead, now you don't have to waste yours and everybody's else time." DSFF usually makes good points, and 75 percent I agree with him on stuff, but when it comes to Harvick he can't stand him. He degrades him and a lot of it has to do with just someone being in Earnhardt's car. Harvick was incredible this year, and he raced hard and had his head on his shoulders every week he came to compete, so what if he shows some emotion every now and then. He had a lot to deal with and overcame a lot from last year. He lost his sponsor mid way through the year to Penske for next year, and he didn't let that bother him, I mean I know there are a lot of people that I know thought he would fold, but he never did, he kept pace the whole time during the cha$e and did an admirable job this year. Dale would be so proud of that team the way they raced and handled themselves all year, a lot more prouder than that 88 bs. Harvick won three races this year that Dale won in 1990. 87. DaleJrFan19 posted: 11.22.2010 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I apologize, I should have worded that a bit differently. I just get so sick and damn tired of people trying to devalue Jimmie Johnson's amazing success he has had in this sport. I don't look at it in the perspective of the same driver is winning over and over again, I look at it in the perspective of we are witnessing history, so I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts instead of whine and complain about it. Everyone has their own opinion about it though." See, I wish I could enjoy this, I really wish I could. But it's reached the point where enough is enough. I could handle three, but it just got really old after that, and this is no exception. "He won 6 races and the "championship" while the other three went winless. I don't think Jeff, Mark or Dale will ever experience the success that they deserve when all the resources of the organization go towards one car." THIS! I'm surprised nobody even mentioned this already! 88. Anonymous posted: 11.22.2010 - 1:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF usually makes good points, and 75 percent I agree with him on stuff" For someone who uses the word "gay" as an insult that doesn't surprise me. 89. Anonymous posted: 11.22.2010 - 1:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I thought it was premeditated myself. That was during an exchange of green-flag pit stops and doing what he did when he did it kept Hamlin a lap down, and ultimately behind the cars who hadn't pitted yet. So Harvick just decided to wreck whoever else was around to try and claim second place in the points. Too bad it still didn't work." I don't think it was premeditated in the slightest. Do you really believe that Harvick spun Kyle so that Hamlin would get trapped a lap down, when Hamlin would just get the wave around immediately anyway? That's pretty ridiculous. 90. HeyDude posted: 11.22.2010 - 1:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He won 6 races and the "championship" while the other three went winless. I don't think Jeff, Mark or Dale will ever experience the success that they deserve when all the resources of the organization go towards one car." Were all the resources going to just one car last year when Hendrick captured 1-2-3 in the points, too? It's not true in the slightest. 91. Sean posted: 11.22.2010 - 1:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, but he still had to restart behind those seven or eight cars that hadn't pitted with not many laps left. It was only with a few laps to go that Hamlin actually passed Harvick in points... 92. Mike posted: 11.22.2010 - 2:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In 2007 you could make the case Jeff Gordon was one of the best drivers of all time." Let me rephrase that. I meant JG was the best driver of all time, not one of. He's for sure one of the best ever. "See, I wish I could enjoy this, I really wish I could. But it's reached the point where enough is enough. I could handle three, but it just got really old after that, and this is no exception." I totally understand man. As a Gordon fan it's been frustrating watching Johnson kick his ass the last 5 years, but it is what it is. I've learned to accept it and enjoy history as you can see, lol. 93. John Royal posted: 11.22.2010 - 4:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #41 >Wow. Just... wow. How long have you actually been watching racing? And I don't >count reading about older seasons on the internet as "watching". Thats not very fair, we all haven't started watching NASCAR in 1948 by going to races. In fact, as late as in middle 90's I learned that NASCAR EXISTS. My first taped race was in 1998, and FIRST live race was in 2008. I depend my NASCAR "knowledge" solely on what has written, statistics and some random race videos from various years. But yes, I try not to give facts about things I'm not sure. Opinions are other thing, but opinions has nothing to do with facts. I can still say that I am bigger NASCAR enthusiast that some other who post in this website, and heck, I'm not even living on the same side of the earth where they actually race NASCAR. Btw I accidentally gave Gordon five championship, instead of four, in the post #3. 94. H848 posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really hope Brain (I spelled it like this intentionally, although some of you won't be able to comprehend that) France loves driving away more and more fans year after year after watching someone continuously win a championship that the mother f**ker knows is rightfully someone elses! The races have been great...no phenomenal the best in years, but unfortunately we have to put up with a champion that seems like they only put in the effort for the final 10 and give about half ass the first 26. Because if Johnson is so great how come Harvick won the Championship by 285 points after 36 races. The chase not the economy is driving away people from the sport. I can't wait until NASCAR goes bankrupt because of it! 95. Josh C posted: 11.22.2010 - 6:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As post #91 makes little to no sense as far as just another little bitch session, I will go on record by saying "it" is somewhat right. 2010 races have been exciting to watch, the way the system is unfortunately Jimmie Johnson will excuse me while I vomit never be forgotten and has officially become a nascar legend. Peeps, this is what burns my ass. I am a Jeff Gordon fan, we should be talking about Jeff's 7th championship if he would ever get his stride back because I honestly think Gordon is better than Johnson, with wins, they are about the same, with consistency Jeff Gordon is KING! 2007 johnson won 10 races and was 353 points back after 36 races, need say no more. Unfortunately in reality we are talking about now Johnsons potential 6th consecutive title. If someone that works for nascar reads this please, give us the old system back or dig your own graves. I know alot of people that are diehard fans that quit watching not becuase of johnson but because the chase doesnt work for nascar. This sport is not nfl, nhl, mlb, nba. This is nascar and there are 36 races in a season, not 10! There are seasons where a driver will dominate and clinch the championship before the final race big whoop, it happens! Would you rather have variety of champions like there would be over the last few seasons if not the chase like stewart in 05, johnson in 06 and 09, edwards in 08, harvick this year, not to mention jeff gordon in 04 and 07. seems like nascar would rather have one guy win the championship for umpteen seasons in a row and watch as the bleechers get more and more empty because people are sick of it. Hey just had a thought, teams do clinch championships before the seasons ends sometimes. Sweep the first 4 games of the World Series, NBA finals not sure how hockey works im not from Canada. Something to think about NASCAR! Peace! 96. ii posted: 11.22.2010 - 6:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am the first to say this, but congrats to Edwards for winning the last 2 races. A championship still hasn't been decided normally in the final race, in '79, '92, and '10, they have all been decided by run-ins. 97. CarlEdwards99 posted: 11.22.2010 - 8:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Carl Edwards will take Denny's role as main challenger next year as he and that team looks focused." a lot of people seem to think that and if that is the case, Carl will have one advantage that Denny didn't have this year, Carl will have the experience of a toe to toe points championship battle from 08. This season for Denny was his first rodeo at a tight points championship and it cost him. As DSFF pointed out, the strategy of playing conservative the first 6 races was stupid and I believe it came as a result of never being in the position of a tight points battle before. There's a old saying about championship battles, "you gotta lose one before you win one". 98. CarlEdwards99 posted: 11.22.2010 - 8:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) for the talk about Jimmie being the greatest, no way to judge that in the middle of a guys career. Something you got to remember is Jimmie has been on a incredible run, but eventually that run will stop and the pace he is on will slow down and his career numbers will look a lot different. For example, take Jeff Gordon. Ask people at the end of the 98 season and a lot would of told you he was going to win 8-10 championships and a 130-140 races. But his run of domination ended and the huge pace he was on slowed down and now all of suddenly his legacy doesn't look quite as impressive. For all we know, Jimmie might only win one more championship (or who knows, maybe yesterday was his last). As silly as that might sound, it sounds no more silly than it would of at the end of the 98 season to say Jeff only had one more championship left and now that looks very likely to be the case. 99. BAFF posted: 11.22.2010 - 12:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, as a year retrospective thing or whatever, this was not a good year of NASCAR. The COT still has way too much reliability, way too much dirty air making passing difficult, and still is impossible to spin out except under extreme circumstances. The result is that the middle period of every race, which used to be filled with passing, cars blowing up, crashes, etc. is now filled with absolutely nothing, and the utter lack of attrition makes races predictable. 100. Smokefan05 posted: 11.22.2010 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I witnessed a 5 peat in F1, so i know how people feel. Sucks don't it? 101. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.22.2010 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Overall, the year had some all across the board races, pit strategy, economy runs, etc. The two most competitive races in terms of official lead changes occurred at Talladega this year. Ultimately this has been the most exciting season for Cup since the inception of the Chase. However, it is the Chase which doomed Harvick's team. Seriously, a guy with a 21st place average start, an 8.7 36 race average finish, and 5th in the Chase finished 3rd 41 points behind the champion? Brian France's brainchild of an experiment has failed. The Chase, not the economy is driving fans and casual viewers alike away from Nascar. On the positive side, next year the Nationwide Series will finally have a Nationwide only champion for the first time in years. 102. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.22.2010 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh and I almost forgot what separates the two legends ahead of Jimmie Johnson from him. Richard Petty won 7 championships with the same team and crew chief, but under different points systems. Dale Earnhardt won 7 championships with two different teams and three separate crew chiefs. Jimmie Johnson has won 5 consecutive championships with the same team, same crew chief and essentially the same Chase points system (i.e., 10 race playoff scenario, albeit expanded Chase field and extra bonus points to winners of races) What Jimmie and team have done is extraordinary, but until he wins one title under a different points system or with a different crew chief/and or team, he will never be as great as Petty or Earnhardt. Is he top 10? Yes. Is he top 5? Debatable, but he will never be the "best" of all time. One of the best in the post-Gordon/post-Earnhardt era. 103. Ryan posted: 11.22.2010 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For someone who uses the word "gay" as an insult that doesn't surprise me." Even more gay, you go as Anonymous... 104. Matt G posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @Post #41 Okay, if you don't think Denny's choke was the worst final race meltdown of all time then why don't you give me some other nominees that you think were worse? The #11 team's performance this weekend was an atrocity any way you slice it. From that 37th place qualifying effort to put themselves behind the 8 ball, to racing too aggressive too early and getting in a wreck, to not making proper adjustments all day (especially after the #11 got ahead of the #48 team just after half way) this was a collapse of epic proportions and I challenge you to find me a list of championship collapses in the 62 year history of NASCAR that even compare to this. @ post #64 ??Darrell Waltrip just called Jimmie Johnson the best driver of all time. Unfortunately for the #48 haters, people who have actually been there and done it disagree with you. ?? Bad news Mike, Darrell lost all credibility when it comes to evaluating a driver??s place in history when he said Casey Mears was ??a younger version of Jeff Gordon? after Mears won the 2007 Coke 600 on fuel mileage. 105. I Seize the Day posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bad news Mike, Darrell lost all credibility when it comes to evaluating a driver??s place in history when he said Casey Mears was ??a younger version of Jeff Gordon? after Mears won the 2007 Coke 600 on fuel mileage." Good point brah. It is asinine to say Jimmie Johnson is the best driver of all time. You just can't say it. The best driver of his generation, sure, but with all the changes in NASCAR, there is no way to compare his accomplishements with Dale or Richard. Mears has always sucked, I never understood why "experts" thought he could have been any good. Its like saying Dario Franchitti or Sam Hornish's (or any IRL star) nephew is going to be the next big thing in NASCAR. 106. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt G is right on the money. 1992 and Davey Allison's deal was a case of poor racing luck. 1979 Darrell Waltrip's situation was a similar case of bad luck when it looked like he had Petty beat at Ontario, by the slimiest of margins. Sources: 2001 Nascar Winston Cup Series Yearbook and "DW: A Lifetime Going Around in Circles." Denny's choke was epic from poor qualifying, immature aggression early in the race, failure to adjust to changing track conditions, etc. 107. 18fan posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick's average finish was better than Jimmie's and Denny's in the chase and scored more points than Denny in the chase. Jimmie did score 21 more points than Harvick during the chase, so if they went by they way I would like to see it and have everybody start on equal footing without factoring in wins, Jimmie is still the champion. I do think, however, the regular season point leader should get some kind of bonus. I'd like to see what other people think about this. 108. Matt G posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I do think, however, the regular season point leader should get some kind of bonus.' I completely agree 18fan. If you're going to have the Chase I would like to see something that makes being in first after 26 races meaningful so guys really have to push hard for it. I'll throw this out there and see what people think. What if the team in first after 26 races got to pick their pit stall first for all 10 races in the Chase regardless of where they qualify? This would still allow for Brian France to have the points super tight at the start of the Chase but still give a deserving team an advantage for the final 10 races. I know this much, I would fight like hell to be in first place after 26 races to be in first place if I knew this was the bonus. 109. Eric posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that regular season point leads needs a bonus. I think it should be a 10 or 20 point bonus. That should be the change in the chase instead of increasing the amount of driver to 15 and start the elimination process after the first 2 weeks of the chase. 110. GDR posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The regular season champion should be in first when the chase starts no matter how many wins that person has. It is the most glaring problem with the chase that Kevin Harvick can out-point Denny Hamlin and Jimmie Johnson by hundreds of points for 26 races and then start 30 points behind them at New Hampshire and the same thing happened last year with Tony. Everybody who says the first 26 races are utterly meaningless can point to this every time. 111. Smokefan05 posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What Jimmie and team have done is extraordinary, but until he wins one title under a different points system or with a different crew chief/and or team, he will never be as great as Petty or Earnhardt. Is he top 10? Yes. Is he top 5? Debatable, but he will never be the "best" of all time. One of the best in the post-Gordon/post-Earnhardt era." Agree 100% with this, Earnhardt and Petty are the Kings of NASCAR and their legecies can't be challenged. what they have done for NASCAR can't be out done. Things have gotten bad under Jimmies run (all bet he gets about 20% of the blame for it, since he is boring, a robot and keeps winning) However i feel JJ will retire before he has a chance to switch teams or CCs. There are 2 seats when it comes to royality: a king and a queen. When it comes to NASCAR there are 2 kings: Petty and Earnhardt. BTW anyone got an opinion on how Jeff Gordon feels? I mean, he picked him, he got him hiried and look where they are now: Jimmie has 5 (3 IMHO) and Jeff has 4. Jeff has got to feel really stupid right now getting Jimmie hiried. 112. Talon64 posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards wins back-to-back races for the 5th time in his career. It's his 2nd win at Homestead and the 7th for Roush in just 12 Cup races held there. Carl won 4 races over the last 3 weeks of the season (2 Cup, 2 Nationwide). Jimmie Johnson's 17 top fives are the most he's had in a year since 20 in 2007. He led the series in laps led for the 3rd straight year, the first to do so since Earnhardt led 4 years in a row from 1987 to 1990. Kevin Harvick sets career highs in top fives (16), top tens (26), points finish (3rd) and average finish (8.7). His 5274 total points scored is the 2nd most since they went to the current point scoring system (I think it was 1975). It's his 6th top 10 points finish in 10 seasons in Cup. Aric Almirola finishes a career-best 4th, his first top five and just his 2nd top ten in 35 Cup starts. Aric scored the 15th most points of anyone over his 5 races in the #9 RPM Ford (Kasey Kahne was 13th in his 5 races in the #83 RBR Toyota). AJ Allmendinger sets new career highs in top fives (2), top tens (8), laps led (181), points finish (19th, avg start (16.1) and avg finish (17.8) Kasey Kahne's 20th career pole ranks him 36th all time but 3rd since moving up to Cup in 2004. His 4 poles in 2010 tie Jamie for the most, the 2nd time he's tied for most poles in a season (6 in 2006). Ryan Newman's 11.9 average finish is his best since 11.6 in 2006. He won a pole for the 10th consecutive year and won at least one race for the 6th time in 9 season. Tony Stewart fails to record 10 top fives in a season for the first time in 12 seasons in Cup, but his 12th straight season with a win is the longest active streak right now. He finishes in the top 10 in the standings for the 11th time in his career. Greg Biffle finishes top 10 in points for the 3rd straight year, and 4th time in 8 full seasons. His 19 top tens is just 2 shy of his career high (21 in 2005), and it's the 7th time in 8 seasons he's won at least 1 race. Matt Kenseth finishes top 5 in the standings for the 4th time in his career, 3rd time in the last 5 years, and 7th time finishing in the top 10. But 6 top fives and 108 laps led are his fewest since 2001, his 2nd season in Cup. Clint Bowyer set new career highs in wins (2), top tens (18) and laps led (400). In his first full season in Cup, Brad Keselowski ends up with just 2 top tens after having 4 in just 15 races last season. Denny Hamlin's just the 2nd JGR driver to lead a season in laps led (Tony Stewart in 2000 with 6), and his career-high 8 wins tie Kyle Busch (2008) for most wins by a JGR driver in a season. 2nd place in the standings is also a career high for Denny, who won at least 1 pole for the 6th consecutive season. Mark Martin has 10+ top tens for the 23rd consecutive season, the 2nd longest streak in Cup history (Richard Petty's 28 straight is the longest). But he goes winless for the 4th time in the last 5 seasons (2 of them part time). Despite a solid season Kurt Busch fails to finish in the top 10 in the standings for the 3rd time in 5 seasons with Penske. But he won at least 1 race for the 9th consecutive season, tying Jimmie Johnson for the 2nd longest active streak. Paul Menard set career highs in top tens (6), points finish (23rd), average start (19.6) and average finish (19.8). Jamie McMurray set new career highs in wins (3), top fives (9), poles (4), laps led (346) and average start (13.4). Jeff Burton goes winless and finishes outside of the top 10 in the standings for the 2nd straight season. Kyle Busch has won at least 3 races and led 1000+ laps in all 3 seasons with JGR, but 8th in 2010 is his best points finish over that span (2nd best in his career). JPM failed to make the Chase and fell short of his finishes from 2009 but won his 2nd career Cup race (both on road courses) and set a new career high in poles (3) and laps led (411). Jeff Gordon wins at least one pole for the 18th straight season but goes winless for the 2nd time in 3 seasons and his 9th place finish in the point is his worst since finishing 11th in 2005. Joey Logano more than doubles his top fives (7 vs. 3), and top tens (16 vs. 7) from 2009 while finishing 16th in the standings, up from 20th. 113. Smokefan05 posted: 11.22.2010 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I do think, however, the regular season point leader should get some kind of bonus. I'd like to see what other people think about this." Well the more weeks you lead you get 10 more added to your total. If lead the points for 20 weeks before the Chase (in my example gets 200 more gets added to your total) 114. 00andJoe posted: 11.22.2010 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two quick points: 1. The rules are what they are, like them or not (and for the record, I don't). 2. Saying "X wouldn't have made up Y points without the Chase" is disingenous, as without the chase, X wouldn't have been Y points behind with 10 races to do, as their strategy would have been different. You can't change one thing and assume everything else will stay the same - look up "chaos theory". One very small change in intial variables can, and usually will, produce a *wildly* different result (chaos theory was discovered in weather forecasting, when a scientist put a result of (note: numbers only represenitive, as I don't recall the exact ones) 0.5894 into a model that only accepted three significant figures as input, so he put 0.589 to start from the midpoint of an earlier simulation, then watched in shock as the simulation wildely diverged from said earlier sim - all because of a 0.0004 difference. 2tl;dr: Take away the chase, people will race different, and you can't say there will be X being Y points to make up with Z races to do like he was with the Chase. Anyway, my predictions for next year: - Johnson, Edwards, Logano, and Harvick race for the championship. - Regan Smith scores his first "official" win. - The ROTY race will be boring, and be won by somebody Jimmy Hensley-style (in '92, there were no full-time rookies at the start of the year, as I recall; Hensley took over the 66 8 races into the season and went on to win it. - Aric Almirola wins the NNS championship ahead of Allgaier. - Ron Hornaday wins the Trucks championship. 115. awesomegordonfan posted: 11.22.2010 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) People use "gay" all the time as insults, Anonymus and Ryan. 116. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2010 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My dislike for Harvick has nothing to do with him being in "Earnhardt's car". Even if Kevin had been driving a black Goodwrench #3 car all these years, I wouldn't look at it as "Dale's car". The only way it would be Dale's car, in my mind, is if he were behind the wheel. Ask his competitors, he was way more intimidating when he drove the bright yellow and blue Wrangler car because he was wilder and less predictable. The colors and number didn't make The Man, The Man made that team. Once he was gone, so was "Earnhardt's car". And let's face it, had he lived he would be long since retired by now. And he would have set the world record for "furthest a boot has been shoved up somebody's ass" on Dale Jr. But that is another story. I don't like him for the same reasons I don't like Kyle and Tony. Kevin is extremely talented. Maybe not as much as Tony and Kyle, but he could be a champion. But like those two, he holds himself back by being unable to control his emotions. When things go wrong, he pitches a fit and blames everyone around him. Jeff Burton said it best after Martinsville. He acts like the world is against him and ALWAYS seems to be feuding with somebody. It gets old after a while. After 10 years of his act, it is REALLY old. He can't stay focused on what should be the main goal, he can always be sidetracked by the chance to get into a feud with someone. His on and off track scuffles are his legacy. It's just embarrassing. Besides, his career has been overrated. I'm not saying it is bad. But it isn't what some people make it to be. 14 wins in 10 seasons. Considering the number of people that have come into Cup after him and already passed him in win total (JJ, Biffle, Kyle, Edwards, Hamlin) that isn't great. It isn't horrible, but not great. Plus his laps led total is horrendous. He does an outstanding job with consistency, but doesn't put nearly enough wins with them. Look, I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to be compared with Dale. I wouldn't want to be compared to him. You will inevitably come out of it looking bad. Hell, in 10 years he still hasn't led as many laps as Dale did in 29 races in 1987 alone. Sometimes I get the feeling he acts out a lot to try to stand out from the shadow cast by the towering, stoic legend. No need for it. There is only one Dale. Just be classy and channel those emotions on to the race track. 117. GDR posted: 11.22.2010 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, because Dale's on and off-track scuffles aren't a major part of his legacy. The seven titles are at the top, but dumping Terry Labonte multiple times, spending the entire mid 80's knocking around Geoff Bodine almost every week, and hooking Darrell in 86 at Richmond in the most disgusting intentional wreck in the history of NASCAR are right there behind it. 118. GDR posted: 11.23.2010 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And as far as Kevin's career goes - yes, you're absolutely right other guys who came in later than he did have won more, but his quality of wins (Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Winston 500 (that's what it'll always be), and the variety of tracks he's won at (restrictor plate, one-mile flat ovals, 1.5 mile, short track, two-mile superspeedway and road course) both demonstrate a great deal of talent. To me his on-track/off-track scuffles (which are overblown) are not his legacy, taking Dale's ride and keeping the car as competitive as it was before Dale died, winning 2 busch titles, an iroc title and developing a championship winning cts team and a race-winning busch/nationwide team are his legacy for right now. I think he'll end up winning a lot more races and a Cup title or two before its all said and done. 119. Michael posted: 11.23.2010 - 12:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go Jimmie 5 time champion and the best 5 year run in NASCAR HISTORY and it is because the thing that means the most is the championship and he is the only ONE to do it 120. Ryan posted: 11.23.2010 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't like him for the same reasons I don't like Kyle and Tony. Kevin is extremely talented. Maybe not as much as Tony and Kyle, but he could be a champion. But like those two, he holds himself back by being unable to control his emotions. When things go wrong, he pitches a fit and blames everyone around him. Jeff Burton said it best after Martinsville. He acts like the world is against him and ALWAYS seems to be feuding with somebody. It gets old after a while. After 10 years of his act, it is REALLY old. He can't stay focused on what should be the main goal, he can always be sidetracked by the chance to get into a feud with someone. His on and off track scuffles are his legacy. It's just embarrassing. Besides, his career has been overrated. I'm not saying it is bad. But it isn't what some people make it to be. 14 wins in 10 seasons. Considering the number of people that have come into Cup after him and already passed him in win total (JJ, Biffle, Kyle, Edwards, Hamlin) that isn't great. It isn't horrible, but not great. Plus his laps led total is horrendous. He does an outstanding job with consistency, but doesn't put nearly enough wins with them." That was absolute garbage and pathetic DSFF. Could be a champion? In many people's eyes he is a champion and he has won IROC and Nationwide titles as well. Unable to control emotions? I thought he did a stellar job this year staying ahead, winning races, and keeping up with the Chase this year. Things did go wrong sometimes, and Childress had his back all year when it did. No where this year did he seem to be side tracked, none what so ever did he show that he was side tracked at anytime, he kept his head in the game and raced very well, and you need to be held accountable, if you call yourself a true race fan and say that he was awesome this year and raced and represented himself, his team, and Nascar very well this season. Scuffles happen all the time, and where are your balls at? People have scuffles all the damn time, our guy Dale Sr. had scuffles, as well as others, is that their legacy? No. And all the drivers you mentioned they have ALL been in better equipment than him, Childress has really had some down years, and you know that, so quit trying to set up a smoke screen. Harvick is a man's man and can race like no other. And quit comparing everything to 1987 and 1998, no one will probably ever have unthinkable numbers like that anymore. "Yes, because Dale's on and off-track scuffles aren't a major part of his legacy. The seven titles are at the top, but dumping Terry Labonte multiple times, spending the entire mid 80's knocking around Geoff Bodine almost every week, and hooking Darrell in 86 at Richmond in the most disgusting intentional wreck in the history of NASCAR are right there behind it." Those are very good points. I like to consider those scuffles much part of Dale's legacy, he wouldn't be Dale Earnhardt if they weren't. Earnhardt and Waltrip's scuffles were always pissing contests and to see who had the biggest pecker while they were doing it. That wreck had been coming for a while. Geoff Bodine and Earnhardt was just hard racing and they didn't like each other, plain and simple. Labonte's deal was hard racing both times, depending on who you ask... "Ask his competitors, he was way more intimidating when he drove the bright yellow and blue Wrangler car because he was wilder and less predictable. The colors and number didn't make The Man, The Man made that team. Once he was gone, so was "Earnhardt's car" I agree with him being more ruthless and wild in the Wrangler car, and the latter you talked about is debatable depending on who you ask. "And as far as Kevin's career goes - yes, you're absolutely right other guys who came in later than he did have won more, but his quality of wins (Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Winston 500 (that's what it'll always be), and the variety of tracks he's won at (restrictor plate, one-mile flat ovals, 1.5 mile, short track, two-mile superspeedway and road course) both demonstrate a great deal of talent. To me his on-track/off-track scuffles (which are overblown) are not his legacy, taking Dale's ride and keeping the car as competitive as it was before Dale died, winning 2 busch titles, an iroc title and developing a championship winning cts team and a race-winning busch/nationwide team are his legacy for right now. I think he'll end up winning a lot more races and a Cup title or two before its all said and done." You nailed it on the head GDR, I have been preaching this for the last few years now. He has also won the Bud Shootout and All-Star race as well. He has won on a variety of tracks, how can that be considered overrated? That's just astonishing that someone could say that. He had the biggest shoes ever in the history of the sport to fill in 2001, and he has done an unbelievable job at it. If anything, I consider his accomplishments underrated considering what all he has had to deal with (pressure and going up against more financed teams and finding some success) over the years. One thing about him is that a lot of his wins have been very exciting towards the end, now that's a comparison to Dale. Dale's last 6 wins of his career could easily be the most exciting finishes and races from 1998-2000... I'll say this, when you have to go up against the Yankees (Hendrick and Johnson) every year and you don't have the budget like they do, it's asking a lot and tall task to beat them. Just ask anyone in the MLB other than the Yankees. All those other big teams like the Red Sox (Roush) and Phillies (Gibbs) win a lot and are there at the end. Childress (Rays) have to work their asses off to get there. Harvick deserves more credit. "I do think, however, the regular season point leader should get some kind of bonus. I'd like to see what other people think about this." I think the point leader should have the same amount as points as the the #1 seed no matter if the driver with the most wins might have 8 races won and the point leader has 0, they both should start out with 80 (like this year, Harvick should have had 50 points right there with Johnson and Hamlin), and if they are the point leader and the driver with the most wins then they just have the outright point lead. 121. martin-n-rusty posted: 11.23.2010 - 5:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan, I can easily poke a hole into that. What if its been a fairly close points battle, but with one driver leading the points 20 races going into the chase. What could be, say, a 40 point lead now gets blown into possibly 200 point lead or so, and defeats the whole purpose of the Chase. 122. Smokefan05 posted: 11.23.2010 - 11:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Well the points leader going into the Chase has to have some form of reward. Thats my 2 cents. 123. petty43 posted: 11.23.2010 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) my thoughts on jimmie's achievement. first off if you still dont respect this guy and his team you are a moron and should be banned from this site forever, because you clearly cannot appreciate any historical data, if you do not first appreciate, what an amazing thing a five peat is. Next i ask which five peat is more impressive JJ or schumi in F1? also this was the fourth time a driver overcame a points deficit in the last race this year, others include dario in irl, john force in funny car, and vettel in F1. i honestly think that jimmie will win the chase every year until he retires. he is my pick to win the cup from now until at least 2020. for every year. also people who think he is emotionless do not watch any coverage him. because i have seen more personality from him this year than from several other drivers. my final point is my favorite. what i most appreciate in Jimmie and his team, is the way that they just kill you the second you ef up on the track. denny made one mistake this entire chase, when he chose to go three wide with biffle and nardchops, and it damageed his car, screwed up their pit stops and jimmie and the 48 just made them pay for it. it literally cost denny a title. congrats to jimmie johnson, the fifth greatest driver in nascar history. only petty earnhardt pearson and maybe cale rank higher right now. 124. petty43 posted: 11.23.2010 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) o and anybody who wants to throw that Jimmie is so lucky stuff out there nac blow it out their ass. he is not any luckier than any other great driver i have seen. and i have seen most all of them. luck i s a part of racing, but skill, and balls are much more important. just name one driver who has lucked into more than 5 wins, other than richard petty, so any one who thinks Jimmie won FIVE TITLES IN A ROW ON LUCK is a completly inbred dipshit. 125. the_man posted: 11.23.2010 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 20th place finish: ??Drew and everyone did such a good job and our UPS Ford was fast, but we??ve got to keep working on the pit crew. We had a few mistakes that hurt us and that is probably the difference between being on the lead lap and not when that caution came out. We had a good car, we just didn??t have the luck on our side and that seems to be the way of how a lot of our season has gone. I??m proud of the way our cars have been running and it??s great to be able to qualify in the top 10 and run in the top 10 the whole race, but we just did not get the result that we wanted here. Nevertheless, looks like a good offseason for us and we have some good things to look forward to.? 126. I Seize the Day posted: 11.23.2010 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "o and anybody who wants to throw that Jimmie is so lucky stuff out there nac blow it out their ass. he is not any luckier than any other great driver i have seen. and i have seen most all of them. luck i s a part of racing, but skill, and balls are much more important. just name one driver who has lucked into more than 5 wins, other than richard petty, so any one who thinks Jimmie won FIVE TITLES IN A ROW ON LUCK is a completly inbred dipshit." I don't respect Jimmie, so what. Kick me out, I dare you. But you are right, you don't win soley off of luck. He may be one lucky SOB, but thats not the reason he has won * straight. (I astericked it cause I don't like him and I don't like to say it) But I want to reiterate that you are dead on on the balls part being more important (see Danica). 127. ii posted: 11.23.2010 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I do think, however, the regular season point leader should get some kind of bonus." But "Brain" France won't allow it. Wait until "Brain" France Jr. Just hope he got all of his mom's traits. =) 128. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2010 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes, because Dale's on and off-track scuffles aren't a major part of his legacy. The seven titles are at the top, but dumping Terry Labonte multiple times, spending the entire mid 80's knocking around Geoff Bodine almost every week, and hooking Darrell in 86 at Richmond in the most disgusting intentional wreck in the history of NASCAR are right there behind it." I disagree. Yes, the 7 titles lead the way, but his legacy is also about how he transcended the sport. The scuffles are pretty distant to his on and off track greatness. Never before or since have we seen somebody that represents what the average, blue collar fan wishes they could be. Somebody who kicked ass on the racetrack, saw what he wanted, went after, actually got it, and did whatever it took while shrugging off all his competitors complaints. Then he went back to his Mooresville farm and raised cattle and chickens, and went hunting or fishing at every opportunity. How cool of a life is that? He never nessed around. Hell, when his own son acted out too much, he shipped his skinny ass off to military school. Plus, and this is the most important part to me, he is the only driver to dominate extensively while never having the best equipment in the field (except '87 when he made that year's championship battle the least cometitive one ever). It wasn't horrible at RCR, but when it came to tracks that require tons of horsepower like Michigan and Pocono, he just was never a factor like he was at driver's tracks like Bristol, Darlington, Atlanta, Wilkesboro, and Martinsville. And he only won twice at Talladega and never at Daytona until they restricted the engines to put everyone on an even playing field. Then he dominated those. 129. Mike posted: 11.23.2010 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. The landscape of Hendrick Motorsports has just changed drastically. Letarte to the #88, Gustafson to the #24, and McGrew to the #5. Gordon and Martin's cars will be fielded out of a new 5/24 shop, and Dale Jr's cars will move to the same shop as Jimmie Johnson's. Needless to say, there's definitely no more excuses for Jr now. 130. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2010 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That was absolute garbage and pathetic DSFF." Hang on one second, let me put my boxing gloves on. "Could be a champion? In many people's eyes he is a champion and he has won IROC and Nationwide titles as well. Unable to control emotions? I thought he did a stellar job this year staying ahead, winning races, and keeping up with the Chase this year." Holy shit, this sin't some troll, it is somebody who wants to actually discuss and debate this topic. So I will. Yes he did a great job this year, but everything went great around him. How Harvick acts is driectly related to his situation. When things go wrong, like they did last year, he was completely counter productive. Asking out of his contract, looking at other options for the future this year until he realized his cars were damn fast. He is a front runner. And I argue he didn't control his emotions at Dover when he plowed Hamlin's car in practice for the things Denny said. Yes, what Denny said was idiotic, but he damaged his own car as much as Denny's. He cost his team 30 minutes of valuable practice time. He finished 7th there in the Spring, but only 15th in the Fall. That is no coincidence. That is a 28 point swing by the way. "No where this year did he seem to be side tracked, none what so ever did he show that he was side tracked at anytime, he kept his head in the game and raced very well, and you need to be held accountable, if you call yourself a true race fan and say that he was awesome this year and raced and represented himself, his team, and Nascar very well this season." Again, I disagree. He got side tracked trying to hurt Denny when he should have been focused on that blue and white juggernaut. Plus, Shell announced they were leaving after sponsoring him throughout a 3+ year winless streak, he wins the next race then insults them in victory lane. This is the same company that sponsored you for four mostly unproductive years. It wasn't until they left he started actually winning again. I thought that whole thing was uncalled for. "People have scuffles all the damn time, our guy Dale Sr. had scuffles, as well as others, is that their legacy? No." Nobody has the laundry list of scuffles, war of words, and fueds like Kevin except Tony (who has still managed to win 2 championships) and Kyle (who has THE most inexcusable behavior I have seen from any professional). Every year he gets into with multiple people at one point or another. Again, I point to Jeff Burton's quotes after Martinsville. 131. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2010 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Jr's cars will move to the same shop as Jimmie Johnson's." This may be the thing that finally ends JJ's streak. June has quite simply been a black hole from mid '08 onwards. He just sucks the energy out of everthing around him. Can Jimmie and Chad keep this up while having to haul June's carcass around with them? 132. Eric posted: 11.23.2010 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Move Rick Hendrick did just screwed up his own organization. The 88 team now created a even bigger black hole for Hendrick Motorsports. Dale Jr. could ruin the 48 team besides what he did to the 5 team. Rick screwed up the 5 team after season with engineer switch with the 88 team. If I am Rick Hendrick, get the poison out of his organization after 2011, if that poison doesn't shape up for 2011. Dale Jr. is poisoning Hendrick Motorsports like or not. I am sure Dale Jr. doesn't mean to poison the organization, but it looks like it from the personnel moves Rick has made for the last 2 years. I think the 5 team could be even worse now. Lance McGrew is the worst crew chief Hendrick has. I am going by how Vickers did at Hendrick. Vickers is better at some tracks at Red Bull than he was at Hendrick. That means the crew chief might have something do with it. I think Jeff will win races next year with Allen. Allen is the 2nd best crew chief at Hendrick. Allen makes right calls at the right time. You can't say that about Steve Letarte. Steve Letarte is a better crew than Lance McGrew. Steve knows how to set up a car at different types of track. The problem with Lance is doing 2 tires or 4 tires at the final stop. This will hurt the 48 team because Chad Knaus is will be working hand-in-hand with Letarte for trying to turn around Dale Earnhardt Jr besides being the crew chief of Jimmie Johnson. The problem with Dale Jr. is distracted from owning a race team, a bar, and who knows what else he owns from a business stand point. The other problem is Dale Jr. isn't willing to change his style of driving for fitting the current cup car. 133. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.23.2010 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Jimmie Johnson. I'm a Harvick fan(and Dale Jr.), but Jimmie plays the game Nascar has given him. He's cheating the system Nascar is giving, but I can't blame he or Knaus one bit. This is probably the toughest title the 48 has won yet. Probably for the first time, they didn't have the best equipment, but they used strategy and took what they could get each week. As for Harvick, he was the most consistent all season long. He needs to improve his qualifying and his old team needs to improve for him next year. RCR has the most consistent cars, but are they race winning? Hamlin had the best equipment this year. I detest him more than any other drive not named Kyle Busch or Carl Edwards, but Hamlin had the best stuff and gave it his all. However, he just didn't have the consistency to get it done. Half of the races this season he couldn't score a top 10. We all should have known he wouldn't keep it up down the stretch. 134. Ryan posted: 11.23.2010 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I disagree. Yes, the 7 titles lead the way, but his legacy is also about how he transcended the sport. The scuffles are pretty distant to his on and off track greatness. Never before or since have we seen somebody that represents what the average, blue collar fan wishes they could be. Somebody who kicked ass on the racetrack, saw what he wanted, went after, actually got it, and did whatever it took while shrugging off all his competitors complaints. Then he went back to his Mooresville farm and raised cattle and chickens, and went hunting or fishing at every opportunity. How cool of a life is that? He never nessed around. Hell, when his own son acted out too much, he shipped his skinny ass off to military school." I agree with everything you say and you are dead on about the blue collar fan, except that the scuffles are distant. Ask any fan that didn't like Earnhardt and that was about half to 70 percent of the people that liked or watched Nascar and they will tell you about his aggressive driving style, they way he bumped people, his scuffles with Rusty, Elliott, Bodine, Waltrip, Labonte on occassion, and Ricky Rudd. Try to see it from both sides of the fence besides looking it from the Earnhardt fan and look at it from the anti-Earnhardt's fan point of view. Be objective. I will admit, I loved him, worshiped the ground he walked and raced on, to me he could do no wrong as long as he won, but there are a lot of people out there that say his legacy is being aggressive and knocking people out of the way. I think it's a bit overrated and a lot of people that was against wish he was still out there. "Plus, and this is the most important part to me, he is the only driver to dominate extensively while never having the best equipment in the field (except '87 when he made that year's championship battle the least cometitive one ever). It wasn't horrible at RCR, but when it came to tracks that require tons of horsepower like Michigan and Pocono, he just was never a factor like he was at driver's tracks like Bristol, Darlington, Atlanta, Wilkesboro, and Martinsville. And he only won twice at Talladega and never at Daytona until they restricted the engines to put everyone on an even playing field. Then he dominated those." I agree that he didn't have a lot of horsepower, but he was really good at 'dega and Daytona even though he wasn't as successful as he was with the restricted engines. He had 12 top 10's and 6 top 5's out of 19 races at Daytona with unrestricted engines. In '86 he definitely should have had 2 more top 5s. At Talladega he had 9 top 10s and 7 top 5's including 2 wins out of 18 races at 'dega. So he was pretty good there considering the horsepower disadvantages he had. 135. Talon64 posted: 11.23.2010 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This may be the thing that finally ends JJ's streak. June has quite simply been a black hole from mid '08 onwards. He just sucks the energy out of everthing around him. Can Jimmie and Chad keep this up while having to haul June's carcass around with them?" Steve Letarte's still going to be in the same shop, so that chemistry won't change. This is probably the safest way they could make the CC changes to mix up the chemistry on the #24 and #88 while keeping the #48 stable. Oh and say "suck it" to Mark and the #5 team by moving McGrew over there. 136. Ryan posted: 11.23.2010 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Holy shit, this sin't some troll, it is somebody who wants to actually discuss and debate this topic. So I will. Yes he did a great job this year, but everything went great around him. How Harvick acts is driectly related to his situation. When things go wrong, like they did last year, he was completely counter productive. Asking out of his contract, looking at other options for the future this year until he realized his cars were damn fast. He is a front runner. And I argue he didn't control his emotions at Dover when he plowed Hamlin's car in practice for the things Denny said. Yes, what Denny said was idiotic, but he damaged his own car as much as Denny's. He cost his team 30 minutes of valuable practice time. He finished 7th there in the Spring, but only 15th in the Fall. That is no coincidence. That is a 28 point swing by the way." Wow, that had to take a lot for you to say he did a great job this year. Until he started to ask out of his contract nothing got done at RCR, when Harvick raised the ball, Childress got busy and finally did some house cleaning and re-organizing, and this year RCR overall had a great year. So, I thought it was a good move for Harvick to call Childress out, and look what happened? Now Earnhardt never did call Childress and the team out in public from late '96-98, but you know he was frustrated and I'm sure and I know for a fact he had some discussions about the organization on how it was being run and from there they were more successful from '99-2000. And you're putting too much into hitting Hamlin. He showed that he was a team player in that situation. Harvick has hardly ever ran well at Dover. 28 points wouldn't have gotten him any where. "Again, I disagree. He got side tracked trying to hurt Denny when he should have been focused on that blue and white juggernaut. Plus, Shell announced they were leaving after sponsoring him throughout a 3+ year winless streak, he wins the next race then insults them in victory lane. This is the same company that sponsored you for four mostly unproductive years. It wasn't until they left he started actually winning again. I thought that whole thing was uncalled for." I don't necessarily think he should have been focused on the blue and white juggernaut (48), he had team issues and he needs to race the track. Him and Denny didn't have problems, that was mind games and taking up for HIS team. So what if he insults Shell, they did him dirty and dropped him for an a-hole. They should have been loyal to him like he has been with Childress, oh well, he is getting Budweiser next year I do believe. He has brought more success to Shell and Pennzoil than anyone else, two Daytona victories, all-star win, shootout win, Talladega win, michigan win, and a traditional points title. "Nobody has the laundry list of scuffles, war of words, and fueds like Kevin except Tony (who has still managed to win 2 championships) and Kyle (who has THE most inexcusable behavior I have seen from any professional). Every year he gets into with multiple people at one point or another. Again, I point to Jeff Burton's quotes after Martinsville." Who cares if he has scuffles and war of words every now and then. Without him things would be dull and boring as hell. He provides action, entertainment, emotion, and no one out there has a bigger heart, he gives everything he has and a lot of people can't handle his style. Dale would be proud of him representing his former car he drove. 137. Ryan posted: 11.23.2010 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wow. The landscape of Hendrick Motorsports has just changed drastically. Letarte to the #88, Gustafson to the #24, and McGrew to the #5. Gordon and Martin's cars will be fielded out of a new 5/24 shop, and Dale Jr's cars will move to the same shop as Jimmie Johnson's. Needless to say, there's definitely no more excuses for Jr now." "Steve Letarte's still going to be in the same shop, so that chemistry won't change. This is probably the safest way they could make the CC changes to mix up the chemistry on the #24 and #88 while keeping the #48 stable. Oh and say "suck it" to Mark and the #5 team by moving McGrew over there." Wow indeed, this might be what breaks Jimmie Johnson's streak. I wouldn't want a disease like that in my shop to bring me down, I know that. As much as I want to see Earnhardt to do better than anyone in this world I just don't see it happening. I really have backed him and his ability for too long. I even used the COT as an excuse as to why he hasn't done well. He's out of excuses. Next year will be it, and if he doesn't have the least little bit of success, he needs to leave Hendrick and/or retire and perhaps be an owner in Nascar and have drivers or drive for himself if he doesn't want to retire... Another thing, I know most of you remember back when Jimmie first came up how him and Gordon were "boys" and they did everything together on and off the track. I believe Johnson's success has really tore them apart the last few years. One could look at the Texas tangle to see that picture. And now they are going to be in separate shops. I wonder what we will be talking about next year at this time when it comes time for Kahne to enter the picture. 138. GDR posted: 11.24.2010 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin was running sixth or seventh at Dover until his pit crew (which was a sore spot all year) lost him five spots on consecutive pit stops and got him back in the middle of the pack, and unfortunately Kevin couldn't get by the cars again late in the going to get back to where he was earlier in the race. The incident with DH in practice had absolutely nothing to do with his run at Dover - I agree it is a track that they do need to get better at because the 48 is so good there that if the best you can pull out is a 6th or 7th you're going to lose points regardless, but they were running fine until the pit crew reared its ugly head. One could argue, and I would, that if RC had changed the crews around immediately after Clint's penalty, Kevin would be the champion right now - the difference between the 33 crew and the old 29 crew was that large. 139. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.24.2010 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "When things go wrong, he pitches a fit and blames everyone around him. Jeff Burton said it best after Martinsville. He acts like the world is against him and ALWAYS seems to be feuding with somebody. It gets old after a while. After 10 years of his act, it is REALLY old." I just wanted to get this off my chest because it has bugged me for years, but this is the exact reason I have never liked Harvick. He's always been a hothead ever since he came into the sport, and to actually see one of his competitors (who was his OWN TEAMMATE) speak out against him like that says a lot. I'll give him credit for not blowing his top as much this year as he had in the past, but that's not saying much. He still managed to get into scuffles with all three of Gibbs' drivers. "Wow. The landscape of Hendrick Motorsports has just changed drastically. Letarte to the #88, Gustafson to the #24, and McGrew to the #5. Gordon and Martin's cars will be fielded out of a new 5/24 shop, and Dale Jr's cars will move to the same shop as Jimmie Johnson's. Needless to say, there's definitely no more excuses for Jr now." As far as I am concerned, there's been no excuses for him since he joined HMS. He's only been doing sub-par the past two years, and to say his performance falls short of his days in the #8 is a huge understatement. It will be interesting to see if Gustafson and McGrew can develop good chemistry with their drivers and get them back in victory lane. 140. GDR posted: 11.24.2010 - 3:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What difference does it make what other drivers think of him or whether he's getting in "scuffles" or not. He finished ahead of the 18, the 20, and the 31 in the points and finished 2 points behind Denny. Results are all that matter. And another thing - maybe if Jeff Burton spent a little more time concentrating on what's going on with the 31 instead of psychoanalyzing his teammate, he wouldn't blow every race he's in contention to win, like he did this year. 141. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.24.2010 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) (try to imagine the voice of one of those old school judges with the deep voice): Steve Letarte, for making many inexcusable pit calls over the past few seasons, I sentence you to hard time: You will now be June's crew chief. Here's my favorite part of the news wire that was sent out: "Johnson and crew chief Chad Knaus, winners of five consecutive Cup championships, will remain paired" I guess it had to be mentioned in the release, but I would still like to say NO SHIT!!!!!! 142. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.24.2010 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan, I respect your opinion. You make some really good points. See, this is what I'm looking for here: civil debate. I respect your view point. I guess we just agree to disagree. I just want to say I respect the hell out of Kevin's ability behind the wheel, and what he can do when his mind is pointed straight. 143. 18fan posted: 11.24.2010 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least this debate doesn't involve criticizing the other poster, just making and defending each others points. It makes it easier to read and easier to get at what each person is saying. 144. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.24.2010 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What difference does it make what other drivers think of him or whether he's getting in "scuffles" or not. He finished ahead of the 18, the 20, and the 31 in the points and finished 2 points behind Denny. Results are all that matter." Sure, he's getting results now, but the problem with that is he's had a history of not being able to put together two great seasons in a row. With that in mind, we'll have to wait and see how 2011 will be. 145. awesomegordonfan posted: 11.24.2010 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The good news is Johnson will not win another title. 146. jp posted: 11.24.2010 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Jimmie wins #6 next year, I'm giving up on racing. He HAS to be cheating. There is no f*ckin way he can win 5 straight without cheating. Let the speculation begin. 147. Smokefan05 posted: 11.24.2010 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Jimmie wins #6 next year, I'm giving up on racing. He HAS to be cheating. There is no f*ckin way he can win 5 straight without cheating. Let the speculation begin." Anyone who thinks that isn't a racefan. He ISN"T cheating, eveyone else can't beat him. Your just pissed that now else can beat him. I witnessed a 5 peat when i was a F1 fan, i didn't witness this one because i've seen it before and i didn't like it the first time, so why should i put myself throught it again? I know who people feel and i'm willing to bet most aren't happy, which is fine. But saying that they are cheating is beyhond me. Schumi was a KNOWN cheater back in the day and he got away with it (but he also got caught). #48 isn't cheating their are just better than everyone else. And some people can't except that. 148. I Seize the Day posted: 11.24.2010 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He may not be cheating now, but you can't you say the 48 team doesn't have a history of cheating. You can't deny that, but some people will hold on to it for life. 149. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.24.2010 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At least this debate doesn't involve criticizing the other poster, just making and defending each others points. It makes it easier to read and easier to get at what each person is saying." Exactly. I'm not here just trying to piss people off. I want to debate. That is why I post things like my take on Harvick. Then Ryan posted, without personal insults, why he feels I am wrong. Although I still disagree, it was nice to see viewpoints from the other side. It is nice to actually "discuss" things on a discussion board. "the problem with that is he's had a history of not being able to put together two great seasons in a row. With that in mind, we'll have to wait and see how 2011 will be." That is something I will definitely be interested to see. He is extremely streaky and, as you said, has trouble following up good seasons. '01 was exceptional, but it was followed by a disasterous '02 when all of RCR bottomed out, exascerbated by Harvick being suspended for his behavior. '03 was a good year, but that would be followed by 1 win over the next two seasons (including a winless '04). 2006 was their best season from a speed perspective when they had their most wins and most laps led. They followed that with a dramatic Daytona 500 win, but would go over 3 years before winning again including an absolute dogshit '09 when all of RCR was down. Now this. It'll be interesting to see if they can sustain momentum for once. Actually I'm interested to see how Harvick and Hamlin do. That is one thing I have noticed about the 48's run: the teams that challenge them one year usually have very disappointing next seasons. Kenseth, Harvick, and Hamlin in '07, Gordon in '08, Edwards and Biffle in '09, then Mark this year. Will Denny and Kevin follow this trend next season? 150. RickyBobby posted: 11.24.2010 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Exactly. I'm not here just trying to piss people off. I want to debate. That is why I post things like my take on Harvick. Then Ryan posted, without personal insults, why he feels I am wrong. Although I still disagree, it was nice to see viewpoints from the other side. It is nice to actually "discuss" things on a discussion board." ...Says the guy who seemingly spends hours arguing with the trolls over some pointless crap every week. I'll believe it when I see it. 151. Talon64 posted: 11.24.2010 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I finally got to watch the Tim Richmond documentary this past weekend. Absolutely amazing, he probably would've been my favorite driver if I'd been alive and old enough to be a fan like I am now. But I found it interesting how while Dale Earnhardt won the championship in 1986, Richmond had the most wins and poles and got the Driver of the Year award for it. Over the years the championship has taken more of a significance than winning races, which is why I loved the year Jamie McMurray had. He was inconsistent as hell over the course of the season and had no right to make the Chase or contend for a championship yet he won the two biggest races of the season, Daytona and Indy, picked up a 3rd win at Charlotte, and had his best runs in the big money races. He also tied for most poles on the season. 14th in the points and only 12 top tens, but he was probably the 5th best driver in 2010 (behind only Jimmie, Denny and Harvick in no order then Carl in 4th) and the biggest money driver on the year. Denny didn't get the championship but he won the most races with 8 despite early-season ACL surgery and came painstakingly close to winning it all. Having the most wins in a season in Cup is a big accomplishment on it's own so big congrats to Denny on that. That being said, Jimmie's 6 wins are close enough that leading the most laps, having the better average finish and winning the championship gives him DOTY in Cup in 2010 IMO. BTW the winner of the most races has only won the championship 3 times in the last 12 years (twice by Johnson, once by Gordon). 152. Eric posted: 11.24.2010 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Denny isn't likely to a have a disappointing year in 2011 in stats outside of points because Denny's stats went down in 2010 compare to 2009 except in wins and finishing average despite what Hamlin's points finish tells you. Denny's 2009 season was a typical season for him by being in the first 26 races of the year and being weaker in the last 10 races of the season. Denny's 2010 season was very inconstant in the first 26 races and that started with not having a top 10 in his 5 five races in 2010. Denny's chase numbers in 2009 were weaker than they were in 2010 because Denny had 4 finishes of 22nd or worse. Denny is usually better in the regular season than in the chase. 153. ii posted: 11.25.2010 - 6:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone realize Kevin Conway beat Terry Cook in Rookie of the Year? Okay, we know Johnson won the championship (again, and again, and again, and again) but stop whining because statistics cannot be erased out of the statistic book. 154. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2010 - 9:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "...Says the guy who seemingly spends hours arguing with the trolls over some pointless crap every week. I'll believe it when I see it." I argue with them, but I'm also trying to get them to tell me their view point, like Ryan did. I want to see how other people view the things I am seeing. I enjoy discussion. I try to get some of the trolls to discuss things. "But I found it interesting how while Dale Earnhardt won the championship in 1986, Richmond had the most wins and poles and got the Driver of the Year award for it." First of all that documentary was amazing. By far the best thing ESPN's "Entertainment" (yeah right) group has put out. Tim was amazing to watch and quite a character. The thing that held him back was a lack of consistency. He was checkers or wreckers all the way. Kinda like Kyle Busch if Kyle were good looking, popular, had a cool attitude, wasn't a jerk, gave fun interviews, didn't suck at Pocono, didn't pitch fits and give up when things went wrong etc etc etc. It would have been fun to see if he could have harnessed all that talent and wildness the way Ernie Irvan did in 1994 before his horrible accident. Like Tim, Ernie won a lot and wrecked a lot and had an undeniable ability to drive the hell out of a race car, sometimes too far. Like Tim. But he began to harness it in 1994 and was giving Earnhardt all he wanted for the championship before his wreck that almost killed him. Also, in 1994, Geoff Bodine led 1700 laps but only finished 17th in points despite starting every race. This has nothing to do with our discussion, I just wanted to mention it. 155. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2010 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That being said, Jimmie's 6 wins are close enough that leading the most laps, having the better average finish and winning the championship gives him DOTY in Cup in 2010 IMO." I agree. Although I feel wins should be rewarded more than they are, it shouldn't be the only determinant. The best recent examples are Newman in '03 and Kahne in '06. They won the most races, but neither deserved to be champion that year. Kenseth in '02 is another good example. But like you said, having 6 wins to Denny's 8 is nothing to sneeze at. Kinda like Earnhardt in '93. Yeah, Rusty had an outstanding season with 10 wins, but Dale still had 6. Where it really gets interesting is looking at years like '84 when Darrell had 7 wins to Terry's 2, in '85 when Awesome Bill had 11 wins to Darrell's 3 (I guess things evened out for DW), or '96 when Gordon won 10 races to Terry's 2. Those really stand out. 156. 18fan posted: 11.25.2010 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This year was kind of like the points battle in 1997. There were two guys who dominated the win column (Gordon and Jarrett in '97, Hamlin and Johnson this year) finishing 1-2 in points with the guy who didn't win as much but was the most consistent (Martin in '97, Harvick this year) right there in 3rd. 157. Eric posted: 11.25.2010 - 12:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my 2011 cup predictions: Carl Edwards will have the most wins, but will not win the chase. Jimmie Johnson wins the chase for the 6th straight year Dale Earnhardt Jr. will have 4top 5's, 11 top 10's, lead around 225 laps, but will only finish 17th points. Rush will announce that David Ragan will not be back in 2012 and Trevor Bayne will be the new driver in the 6 car in 2012. Red Bull Racing will announce a driver to take over the 82 in 2012, but it will not be a current cup driver. Joey Logano will win the Sprint Allstar Challenge. Dale Earnhardt Jr. will get the fan vote to get into the Sprint Showdown. Kevin Harvick will win the Daytona 500,Greg Biffle will win the Southern 500. Kyle Busch will win the Coco-Cola 600, and Juan Pablo Montoya will win the Brickyard 400. Ambrose will win a road Course this year and will be the only cup driver to get his first career win this year. Cup Drivers that will breakout out of a winless streak will be Joey Logano, and Kasey Kahne. Drivers that will make the 2011 15 driver chase will be the following in any order: Jimmie Johnson Jeff Gordon Kevin Harvick Clint Bowyer Jeff Burton Greg Biffle Matt Kenseth Carl Edwards Denny Hamlin Kyle Busch Joey Logano Tony Stewart Kurt Busch Jamie McMurray Kasey Kahne 158. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2010 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My '11 cha$e picks: JJ, Gordon, Hamlin, Kurt and Kyle, Kenseth, Edwards, Harvick, Burton, Stewart, McMurray, Kahne (in at 12th). If they expand it to 15: Biff, Burton, Keselowski (in at 15th). Explanations for people I left out. Logano: trendy pick for the '11 cha$e, and yes he has improved a lot, but I don't think he'll make it. I look for JGR to make a relative step backwards next year. Not that they'll be bad, just not as strong as this year. Mark: I think HMS will spend most of 2011 preparing for Kahne's arrival as it relates to the #5 car. I predict he wins no races and hovers around 20th in points all year (I REALLY REALLY hope I'm wrong, but my gut says otherwise). He'll end his career on two down seasons while I complain next season about 27,146 times that Mark didn't go ahead and retire after '09 like the plan originally was (and for Brad to take that car over since he was doing well in HMS equipment). Just forewarning you guys. Bowyer: I just have a feeling he will have a tough year. I think RCR will do their usual deal after a good season and fall back a bit. I think Clint will come out with a huge chip on his shoulder after the penalty this year and mess up a lot. 159. I Seize the Day posted: 11.25.2010 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If they expand it to 15: Biff, Burton, Keselowski (in at 15th)." DSFF - You have Burton already in your predicted top 12. Did you mean to do that? I am thankful for alot of things, on the NASCAR side - I am thankful Jimmie Johnson doesn't have 7 championships or more. I can say that for at least one more Thanksgiving. 160. Talon64 posted: 11.25.2010 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Logano: trendy pick for the '11 cha$e, and yes he has improved a lot, but I don't think he'll make it. I look for JGR to make a relative step backwards next year. Not that they'll be bad, just not as strong as this year." I could see Logano missing out on a 12 man Chase, but it'd pretty unlikely he'd miss it if it's top 15 IMO. Here's my top 12 in no particular order: JJ Carl Gordon Hamlin Stewart Kurt Kyle Biff Kenseth McMurray Mark Martin Harvick These are the 3 who will contend for the Chase, or who make it if it's top 15: Logano Bowyer Burton I don't think Kahne will make the Chase but a Jamie McMurray-type year's possible with a couple wins and some good runs. If I had to give a ceiling and floor for Dale Jr.'s 2011 season, the ceiling would be 10th in the standings with a win and the floor will be 18th with no wins. The ceiling will keep him at HMS, the floor will pave the way for Aric Almirola in 2012. JPM will finally get his first oval win. Even though he finished 17th in the standings he had his good races, just no consistency like Jamie. Even though I have McMurray in the Chase I still wonder if EGR can keep it up for a 3rd straight season. AJ Allmendinger will win a restrictor plate race. Brad Keselowski will win at a short track. Marcos Ambrose gets his first Cup win... but not on a road course. Bristol! Tony Stewart will FINALLY win the Daytona 500 but his season will probably be about equal with 2010. Regan Smith will get a couple top tens. And Bobby Labonte will FINALLY get his 200th career top ten, even if it might be his only one of the season. 161. 18fan posted: 11.25.2010 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think RCR will try to get the points from one of the RPM teams that folds for Paul Menard, maybe try to get the #98's points since they are probably better than the #19's. 162. GDR posted: 11.25.2010 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If RCR struggles next year it will be because they added a fourth team again, something I don't think they are set up to do. I think three works perfectly for them, and I just can't see Paul Menard adding anything other than sponsorship dollars. 163. Talon64 posted: 11.25.2010 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 23rd vs. 27th. I heard it's already a done deal. The #77's owners points probably won't be available, Sam Hornish Jr. might run the first 5 Cup races next year to try and attract sponsorship to continue to run full time. The #7's could be if Robby's Speed Energy legal issues kill off his Cup team. The #19's owners points are the only one that should be available for sure, meaning any new teams for 2011 are going to have a stressful Daytona Speedweeks. 164. Mike posted: 11.25.2010 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure if I like NASCAR expanding the chase to 15 drivers. If anything I'd like to see them go back to the original chase format they used in 2004-2006. As far as what's going to happen next year, I'm really expecting a big year out of Joey Logano and Carl Edwards. I expect the #11 will fall off and the Hendrick organization in general is going to come out very strong. Stevie has Dale Jr pumped up and his confidence back which is a good sign. Gordon should be better with Gustafson and Johnson will be Johnson. I'm concerned with the #5 but they may surprise us. It's hard for me to go against Jimmie Johnson for a 6th straight title, but 165. Mike posted: 11.25.2010 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's hard for me to go against Jimmie Johnson for a 6th straight title, but I really think Carl Edwards has a shot to dethrone him next year. I don't see RCR making a big challenge as they will most likely fall off with the addition of a 4th team. As a Gordon and Dale Jr fan I'm really hoping they can come back and make a run at it but we'll see what happens. I'm pumped for '11 166. Eric posted: 11.25.2010 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike, There was some talk during Homestead weekend from Brian France that will be changes to the chase despite the distance Hamlin had over Jimmie Johnson, and Kevin Harvick. There actually was talk that France wanted to increase the amount of drivers for the chase to 15. Brian France didn't make it official yet. The other Change that I heard was adding elimination to the chase. Elimination would happen about 3 times with driver being gone from the chase. 167. Eric posted: 11.25.2010 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't pick Mark Martin as a driver the chase because of the crew chief change and Mark is a lame duck. Those two factors didn't mix. Lance McGrew isn't a great crew chief and has to do with Vickers, not Dale Jr. I think Mark is Lance's last chase at a top organization as a crew chief. I had Kasey at the 15th spot. I was very tempted not to put him in because Red Bull isn't a great organization by the fact the 82 car slows down the 83 car in years past. I forgot about the 4th team for RCR. I wasn't sure on Jeff Burton for sure next year because Jeff somehow got into the chase despite the luck he had and the amount of laps he led in 2010 was the most since 2006 for him. I think Jeff Burton having over 500 laps led was a fluke out of him based on his history since the start of the 21st century. 168. Mike posted: 11.25.2010 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The other Change that I heard was adding elimination to the chase. Elimination would happen about 3 times with driver being gone from the chase." I'm not sure if I like that idea. I guess it depends on how NASCAR structures the format. Depending on how it's structured a format like that would all but ensure a close championship battle going into the final race of the year which is what NASCAR is obviously looking for. It'll be interesting to see what they end up doing. 169. DaleJrFan19 posted: 11.26.2010 - 5:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "first off if you still dont respect this guy and his team you are a moron and should be banned from this site forever" K, bye then. Thanks for generalizing everyone who doesn't share your opinion. "so any one who thinks Jimmie won FIVE TITLES IN A ROW ON LUCK is a completly inbred dipshit." Of course he didn't, he was handed them because he had top notch equipment since day one, I guess you could call that luck in some way though. Have him win it in another car, and I'll think otherwise. Oh, and my mother and father are not related ;D Had to vent there... 170. CarlEdwards99 posted: 11.26.2010 - 6:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) a 15 driver chase would just turn the chase into the NBA and NHL playoffs, EVERYBODY who's remotely competitive makes it. 171. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2010 - 10:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF - You have Burton already in your predicted top 12. Did you mean to do that?" Holy shit, you're right. Scratch Burton out of the final 3 and add JPM. "I could see Logano missing out on a 12 man Chase, but it'd pretty unlikely he'd miss it if it's top 15 IMO." I definitely wouldn't be shocked if he made it. I just feel people are making a little too much out of his outstanding late season run. It was very impressive, and he is definitely starting to get it, I'm just not a believer yet. But I definitely see where you are coming from. "a 15 driver chase would just turn the chase into the NBA and NHL playoffs, EVERYBODY who's remotely competitive makes it." I agree. To me, 12 is already too much. It definitely dilutes it. The other problem with this is it allows for the top cars to secure their cha$e spot earlier, allowing them to test out setups and car/chassis configurations which puts them even further ahead of the other teams (especially the 48 team who has this mastered). This year, the 48, 11 and 29 had their spots wrapped up, barring complete catastrophe, by early summer and got to test out a lot of stuff. When the cha$e started they blew everyone off the track and quickly distanced themselves, basically eliminating the other 9 teams from realistic championship contention by the time Martinsville was over (halfway). To expand it even further takes away the original goal of the cha$e: to artificially tighten up the drivers together down the stretch. If they go to 15 drivers, they would almost have to do some goofy elimination system, which would make the championship even more of a joke and cause NASCAR to lose even more dignity. But that's Brian France's NASCAR for you. This cha$e has just screwed everything up. But on the one positive note about the cha$e, it has provided me priceless memories of watching Kyle Busch melt down under the artificial pressure over and over. 172. Eric posted: 11.26.2010 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Petty43, Stop generalizing everyone who doesn't share your opinion. My younger brother never like the chase to begin with and now doesn't want anything to do with Nascar despite being a true fan of it for years. He is not an inbreed or stupid. My younger brother and I have the same parents, but our parents are not related. My dad is 100% polish and my mom 99 percent German. My younger brother and I don't have a sister. My younger brother and I aren't close to our cousins either. My younger brother and I aren't gay. My younger brother has a degree in web designing and his iq is 139. 173. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2010 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he was handed them because he had top notch equipment since day one, I guess you could call that luck in some way though." Yes he was handed top notch equipment, but so have a lot of other drivers who did nothing with it. Where JJ is lucky is that he is the only great driver currently competing that isn't a) mentally unstable (Stewart, the Busch Brothers, Harvick) b) distracted (Gordon, Harvick, Stewart) or c) trapped in bad equipment (Kahne). There also isn't a lot of really talented drivers right now period. He's been a beneficiary of the talent stagnation due to Cup guys taking over the NWide Series (including Brad). He is damn good, one of the best ever for sure. But his lack of competent competition has allowed him to inflate his stats. Put him in a situation where his prime stretched from the mid 80s to mid 90s, NASCAR's competitive zenith, and I think he ends up with slightly better career numbers than Rusty Wallace. I think he'd get 2 or 3 championships and about 60 career wins. BTW, do I even need to give my prediction for 2011 Cup champ? 174. ii posted: 11.26.2010 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Chase standings: Stewart-will win 8 races, including Daytona 500 Hamlin-will win 3 races (2 @ Pocono) Johnson-will win 2 races (Bristol and Charlotte) Edwards-will win 3 races (Homestead, Dega, Chicago) Menard-breakthrough year with Childress but no wins Biffle-will win 1 race (Auto Club) Harvick-no wins Burton-1 win (Dega) Ky. Busch-5 wins (2 at Texas) Ku. Busch-1 win (Bristol) Truex-no wins Junior-new crew chief=1 win (fuel milage @ Michigan) Kahne-2 wins @ Phoenix but inconsistent McMurray-2 wins (1 at Brickyard) Ambrose-win @ road course and consistency will get him last spot in Chase Suprises? J. Gordon-New crew chief won't work Allmendinger-Good last half of year this year and 1 win next year but very inconsistent, especially at 1.5 mile tracks Kenseth-few wins, but few last place finishes as well Marin-New crew chief and will finish far back in points Montoya-win @ road course but no strength in ovals 175. Fun Gus posted: 11.26.2010 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes he was handed top notch equipment, but so have a lot of other drivers who did nothing with it. Where JJ is lucky is that he is the only great driver currently competing that isn't a) mentally unstable (Stewart, the Busch Brothers, Harvick) b) distracted (Gordon, Harvick, Stewart) or c) trapped in bad equipment (Kahne). There also isn't a lot of really talented drivers right now period. He's been a beneficiary of the talent stagnation due to Cup guys taking over the NWide Series (including Brad)." How is Gordon distracted? 176. Smokefan05 posted: 11.26.2010 - 2:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "To expand it even further takes away the original goal of the cha$e: to artificially tighten up the drivers together down the stretch. If they go to 15 drivers, they would almost have to do some goofy elimination system, which would make the championship even more of a joke and cause NASCAR to lose even more dignity. But that's Brian France's NASCAR for you. This cha$e has just screwed everything up." The "fans" want a barn burner, can't fault NASCAR for listening to "them." If they don't use points eliminations would work. 15 is too many tho, 12 would for elimination (if they don't points). That would leave 3 left for Homestead, which i think is the right # of drivers. I've stated my system on here, so i'm not going to say it again. 177. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2010 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How is Gordon distracted?" He's involved in a lot of business stuff. Most people don't know anything about it, but he is always involved in some sort of business venture. Whether its starting a racing school, getting endorsement deals, or appearing on a TV show or movie, he spreads himself pretty thin. Although, in all fairness, a lot of it has to do with his foundation which provides a ton of money every year for ill children. 178. Talon64 posted: 11.26.2010 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kevin Harvick, Kurt Busch, Ryan Newman, Jimmie Johnson, Greg Biffle, Kasey Kahne, Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Clint Bowyer... All of them jumped right into competitive equipment when they moved up into Cup. HMS, Roush, JGR, RCR, a #9 team that Bill Elliott should've won his last 2 races in... Stewart, Harvick, Newman, Johnson, Biffle, Edwards, Kyle and Hamlin jumped right out with competitive seasons and wins. Gordon, Kenseth, Dale Jr., Kahne, Kurt, Biffle and Bowyer needed 2-3 seasons to really get into the groove but were up to that standard eventually. Then you've got the Jason Leffler's, JJ Yeley's and David Ragan's of the world who get the same opportunity but blow it, or are blowing it, because they don't have the ability. All the top drivers in NASCAR today jumped right into good situations. But it's Jimmie who's won 5 straight championships so why is he bashed for it? 179. ii posted: 11.26.2010 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart, Harvick, Newman, Johnson, Biffle, Edwards, Kyle and Hamlin jumped right out with competitive seasons and wins. Gordon, Kenseth, Dale Jr., Kahne, Kurt, Biffle and Bowyer needed 2-3 seasons to really get into the groove but were up to that standard eventually. Then you've got the Jason Leffler's, JJ Yeley's and David Ragan's of the world who get the same opportunity but blow it, or are blowing it, because they don't have the ability." Junior and Kenseth didn't need 2-3 seasons. They won pretty much in their first few starts. And Harvick-well, he won that 1 race at Atlanta, but didn't win again until '03. I do agree with all the others. Landon Cassill and Travis Kvapil and even Casey Mears, Andy Lally, and Elliot Sadler blew it, even though Sadler won 3 races early in his career. And David Ragan has been strong in the last few races, too. 180. Smokefan05 posted: 11.26.2010 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg Biffle climbed the ladder the right way and earned his Cup ride. Today drivers should do what Greg Biffle did. That is the right way to earn your Cup ride. Truck, N'wide, Cup. That is how it's should be done. "All the top drivers in NASCAR today jumped right into good situations. But it's Jimmie who's won 5 straight championships so why is he bashed for it?" Maybe because he was unproven? 1 win in Busch (N'wide) doesn't make you a Cup driver. But it's all moot now. 181. ii posted: 11.26.2010 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "or c) trapped in bad equipment (Kahne)." Really? Bad equipment? Just because crappy drivers like Scott Speed or Casey Mears are with the team doesn't mean they have bad equipment. Hell, Front Row could be better than Hendrick for all I care! 182. Sean posted: 11.26.2010 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, but Tony Stewart had 0 wins in Busch, spent less time there, and was in Joe Gibbs equipment rather than Herzog Motorsports equipment and doesn't seem to get bashed for it as much as Johnson does or oddly Gordon. I find it odd when people talk about how crappy Gordon's Busch career was. He was inconsistent, but he won three races (in races with tons of Buschwhackers), eleven poles (setting a Busch record which still stands), and I believe leading the most laps in '92... Johnson didn't do as much as Gordon in Busch, but he still did more than Stewart, especially considering the ride difference. Denny Hamlin almost won the title this year and his Busch season was even more mediocre than Johnson's or Stewart's were. The examples of Gordon, Johnson, and Stewart, probably the three dominant drivers of the last fifteen years, along with a string of Busch Series champions in the '90s who really didn't do much with the exception of B. Labonte and Junior have led me to believe that Busch is almost irrelevant at predicting Cup success. What ultimately predicts Cup success is if you can land a ride with a major Cup owner. 183. Eric posted: 11.26.2010 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Jeff Gordon was in good equipment with Bill Davis in the Nationwide series, but Jeff Gordon was making the transition from USAC to stock cars. The only Stock Car experience Jeff Gordon had before going Nascar was going to Buck Baker Racing School. That meant Jeff was very raw stock car driver. Jeff was very talented, but raw. Rick Hendrick got the dividends of Jeff having enough stock car experience to catch up with his talent. Jeff Gordon's first years in stock racing include cup, he was very raw. He couldn't the feed as he could now and Jeff was wreck into a good amount of wrecks in his first 4 of full years of stock car racing. When Jeff didn't tear up equipment, Tony Stewart's transition was even harder. Stewart was in USAC like Jeff was, but he also started to race indy cars in the year he made his first Nationwide start. His only stock car experience prior to Nascar was Buck Baker Racing School. Tony Stewart got started in Nascar by driving for Harry Ranier in 1996, but Harry Ranier wasn't involved in Nascar from 1988 to 1995. That is a lot of years for owner not being in Nascar and means Stewart on a weaker team than Jeff was to begin on. Stewart didn't join Gibbs before 1998. Stewart was very raw as Nascar driver on the Nationwide series. The other thing that didn't help out was the fact raced in the IRL in the same year full time. 184. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.27.2010 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie didn't have spectacular results in Busch, but racing against Jeff Gordon definitely helped, as Jeff noticed Jimmie was a good driver and gave him a chance with HMS. And he has made the most of that opportunity, to say the least. I definitely disagree with anyone who would say that just anyone could do what Jimmie has done in the #48. Jason Leffler and J.J. Yeley were offered some damn good Cup rides and did nothing with them, so being a skilled driver is obviously a key factor to success. 185. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2010 - 11:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1 win in Busch (N'wide) doesn't make you a Cup driver. But it's all moot now." A lot of other people beat me to it, but you have to remember he was with a start up Busch team. If I'm not mistaken, he drove ASA for a while with the Herzogs in the midwest, then they all moved to Charlotte and started together. And that was all the experience JJ had in stock cars on paved tracks. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never hear a whole lot about Johnson's rise through the ranks, although, from the little I do hear, it sounds pretty damn interesting). Not exactly a recipe for success. And I also agree that Busch/NWide results are not a consistently reliable indicator of what drivers can do in Cup. Remember, only one driver has gone on to win the Cup title after winning the Busch title, and that person was Chuck Bown (just kidding, it was Bobby Labonte). Besides, as I mentioned on the NWide Homestead page, I think they picked JJ because they were looking for the #48 team to basically be the #24 team's wingman, to gather extra information to help the #24 team become the all time dynasty. By picking JJ, he seemed pretty harmless and wouldn't be a consistent threat to Jeff. JJ would basically be the Ruben Barichillo (I have no freaking idea how to spell his name, I just know he's the guy that pulled over while 10 feet from the checkered flag in an F1 race so Shoemaker could win. And I'm supposed to take F1 seriously?) for Jeff. Whoops. Needless to say, that blew up in Jeff's face. In the 9 years since, Jeff finished ahead of JJ in the points ONCE (JJ's rookie season by one spot), tied him for wins in the 48's first 2 seasons, and have won less every year since, and have been passed for championship total. Worst of all, this year, with the 48's pit crew struggling and the 24's pit crew doing an outstanding job, the 48 team was able to say "we're switching pit crews, you get the crappy one". And now he's being booted out of the very building that was created for him. As it turned out, Jeff became Baricelo. 186. Eric posted: 11.27.2010 - 11:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, It is true that Jimmie Johnson was for the Herzogs for several years, but Jimmie only raced in the Asa for 2 years. Jimmie was racing for the Herzogs race team Short-course Off-road Drivers Association in Off Road Racing for 2 years. All got information on Jimmie with his stock car experience before Asa was he raced 6 stock car races before Asa. I don't know if they were dirt or pavement, but that wasn't usually a recipe for being a cup champion no matter how you looked at it. 187. CFob posted: 11.27.2010 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie raced an entire season in the ASA National Tour. Including taking down the giant inflatable Michelin Man off of the backstretch at I believe the Berlin Raceway. His pre-Cup Series credentials were thin, but it makes Jeff Gordon and Rick Hendrick look like amazing judges of talent. 188. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2010 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the info guys. Like I said, I really don't know a lot about JJ's pre-NASCAR days. I knew he raced dirtbikes as a kid (until what age, I don't know). I knew he raced those Stadium Truck races that are very popular in California for a while (for how long, I don't know). And I knew he raced ASA in some form for a while, and that's all I knew. Then he came to NASCAR, lost his brakes in a Watkins Glen race, had a spectacular crash after which he came out cheering for some odd reason (I guess he was happy to be alive which is understandable). "Including taking down the giant inflatable Michelin Man off of the backstretch at I believe the Berlin Raceway." Hell, he probably thought that was great. 189. Smokefan05 posted: 11.27.2010 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like I said, I really don't know a lot about JJ's pre-NASCAR days. I knew he raced dirtbikes as a kid (until what age, I don't know). I knew he raced those Stadium Truck races that are very popular in California for a while (for how long, I don't know). And I knew he raced ASA in some form for a while, and that's all I knew. Then he came to NASCAR, lost his brakes in a Watkins Glen race, had a spectacular crash after which he came out cheering for some odd reason (I guess he was happy to be alive which is understandable)." JJ won like over 100 stadium truck races during his time in off-road racing, and i think he did the Baja 500 and 1000. But he never won those 2 races (Robby has won both, take that. :P) "His pre-Cup Series credentials were thin, but it makes Jeff Gordon and Rick Hendrick look like amazing judges of talent." yeah and Jeff is kicking himself for getting JJ hired. As DSFF said "oops." 190. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.27.2010 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After being tortured by Gordon over and over in the late 90's, I think it's quite funny that he ended up hiring a driver who would join him in elite status, and eventually take over Jeff's spot as #1 in the sport. 191. CFob posted: 11.28.2010 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "After being tortured by Gordon over and over in the late 90's, I think it's quite funny that he ended up hiring a driver who would join him in elite status, and eventually take over Jeff's spot as #1 in the sport." Ehh, Jimmie's been more successful lately... but personally I think Jeff is a better driver, and while he has less titles than Jimmie now, I don't think you can push Jeff off of the pedestal yet. And I'd still consider Jeff the more significant driver of the two just based on how he revolutionized the archetype for NASCAR Drivers. After Jeff rookie drivers became younger and younger, major teams began seeking out the "next Jeff Gordon" and not to mention, outside of the last two-three seasons, Jeff has been a much more prolific race winner than Jimmie. Jimmie's been more successful lately, but I think Jeff's contributions to changing the face of NASCAR (for better or worse) gives him the nod towards #1 driver today. Just my opinion though. 192. lordlowe posted: 11.28.2010 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why does dale Jr have a job he is completely useless 193. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.28.2010 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "why does dale Jr have a job he is completely useless" The T-shirt sales industry in NASCAR generates a lot of money. That's about it. 194. lordlowe posted: 11.28.2010 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The T-shirt sales industry in NASCAR generates a lot of money. That's about it." Yeah but beyond that He is completely worthless and should be fired 195. ii posted: 11.28.2010 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah but beyond that He is completely worthless and should be fired" I agree. Without his father, he'd just be another Dave Blaney, or Casey Atwood. 196. Billy on a Balloon posted: 11.28.2010 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, Harvick sure choked away the title in the Chase this year, didn't he? 197. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.28.2010 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah but beyond that He is completely worthless and should be fired" Oh I agree about his on track performance. If he were Dale Jones he'd have been canned or relegated to start & park duty by now. 198. Ryan posted: 11.28.2010 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here you go DSFF. A writer wrote about the comparison of Harvick and Earnhardt. http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Kevin-Harvick-might-just-be-the-next-Dale-Earnha?urn=nascar-288191 199. Talon64 posted: 11.29.2010 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and i think he did the Baja 500 and 1000. But he never won those 2 races (Robby has won both, take that. :P)" I found this biography of him (only up to 2006) with some of his pre-NASCAR racing career highlights. Including when he ran the Baja 1000 as a 19 year old in 1994. http://www.notablebiographies.com/newsmakers2/2007-Co-Lh/Johnson-Jimmie.html "Johnson's truck-racing career was fraught with ups and downs. During the 1994 Baja 1000 endurance race, Johnson??after 20 hours of racing??fell asleep behind the wheel in the middle of the Mexican desert, flipping his vehicle into a sand wash. Johnson and his co-driver were rescued two days later. For days, Johnson stewed over the mistake. From that day forward, Johnson strove to be a cleaner, more precise driver." 200. Smiff_99 posted: 11.30.2010 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Johnson's truck-racing career was fraught with ups and downs. During the 1994 Baja 1000 endurance race, Johnson??after 20 hours of racing??fell asleep behind the wheel in the middle of the Mexican desert, flipping his vehicle into a sand wash. Johnson and his co-driver were rescued two days later. For days, Johnson stewed over the mistake. From that day forward, Johnson strove to be a cleaner, more precise driver." HAHAHAHA I don't care how tired you are, how in the hell do you pass out in the middle of a desert race reaching speeds up to 140+ mph? 201. I Seize the Day posted: 11.30.2010 - 9:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) He was drunk Smiff 202. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2010 - 9:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the article Ryan. I still don't buy it, but it is nice to see the view from the other side. Those are some good points mentioned. I just think his stirring things up distracts himself more than whoever he's going against. In my opinion, he just doesn't have the mindset to get inside people's heads the way Dale could. Honestly, JJ showed the closest Earnhardt mind games impersonation. From the moment Phoenix ended, he crawled right inside Denny and Mike Ford's head, and forced them into an array of mistakes throughout the weekend. Shades of Dale vs Mark in 1990. And the other thing: he just doesn't win or run up front enough. To truly have the Intimidating edge, you have to be able to just blow the field away every so often. You have to be able to make the field say "Damn, we just got out asses KICKED!!!" In his career, Kevin has really only had two "We just beat the living shit out of y'all and you KNOW IT" wins, the fall races at Loudon and Phoenix in 2006. But I respect Harvick fan's viewpoint. 203. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2010 - 9:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One other thing about the article: I wouldn't compare Teresa to Kevin's wife. Although behind the scenes Teresa ruled things with an iron grip (the same iron grip June tried to wrestle with and got pwned), you rarely heard from her publically. She was always there next to Dale, they were soulmates and Dale leaned heavily on her for all off track guidance, helped him become a much better father (after having very distant relationships with his first 3 kids, him and Taylor were as close as a parent and child could be), and was the only person who Intimidated the Intimidator. But she was very quiet and guarded publically. Sometimes it feels like Kevin's wife gets interviewed more than he does. Talon, thanks for the article. Although I think we may have the answer as to why JJ never talks much about his past: "Johnson played water polo and competed with the swim team." Water polo? Yikes! I'd probably be sweeping that under the rug too. One other thing caught my attention: "In his first race with the AMA, Johnson spun his car 12 times." 12 times? How the HELL does that happen? That's more than Dale Earnhardt spun out at Watkins Glen in 1990, and he spent more of that race spinning than going straight (also, in that race, Mark Martin had something like 3 flat tires in the last 15 laps and still got a Top 5 finish. HOLY SHIT!!). 204. Talon64 posted: 11.30.2010 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski fans' prayers have been answered! Paul Wolfe has been promoted to Kez's Cup CC for 2011. Jay Guy's been released by Penske. The #2 will get it's pickings of the best scraps from the #12 and #77 teams, and with Paul Wolfe running the show I can see Keselowski challenging for a Chase spot. 205. I Seize the Day posted: 11.30.2010 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski will win Pocono next year, who wants to bet? 206. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2010 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad and Jay just never clicked. They never could get the car better as the race wore on with the exception of the Fall Martinsville race. Obviously with Paul there is no guarantee for Cup success, it is a whole different world, MUCH more difficult. But he understands what Brad likes in a racecar, and hopefully he can translate that in Cup. Plus, Brad has SO much confidence in Paul, that has to help his mindset. "He was drunk Smiff" Knowing JJ, you are probably right. Or maybe he passed out because he remembered he used to play water polo. 207. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.30.2010 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Brad Keselowski fans' prayers have been answered! Paul Wolfe has been promoted to Kez's Cup CC for 2011. Jay Guy's been released by Penske." I'm not surprised at all that this happened. Brad has MUCH better chemistry with Paul than he does with Jay. Jay never had the experience of working with a good team, as Penske hired him away from Furniture Row. I'm hoping it leads to better results next year, but I'll believe that when I see it. If he starts finishing in the top-10 more often and scraping the wall less, I'll be satisifed. "Obviously with Paul there is no guarantee for Cup success, it is a whole different world, MUCH more difficult. But he understands what Brad likes in a racecar, and hopefully he can translate that in Cup. Plus, Brad has SO much confidence in Paul, that has to help his mindset." I agree, this is why I have the hope for better results. 208. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2010 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just read this sentence from the Sporting News year end awards, which are ultimately meaningless, but this one sentence about made me pass out like Jimmie Johnson in the Baja Desert (I'm so glad I found out about that): "Denny Hamlin is the 2010 Dale Earnhardt Tough Driver." Somebody hand me a bucket quick, I'm gonna puke my guts out. "Keselowski will win Pocono next year, who wants to bet?" I hope so. But judging by 2010, his best runs were on the smaller flat tracks like Martinsville, Richmond, Loudon, and Phoenix. Although it will be hard for anyone to break the stranglehold the Gibbs teams have on the short tracks. If they can translate those relatively good runs to the high speed flat track of Pocono, then yes, it is possible. Especially with that Penske horsepower. 209. Anonymous posted: 12.01.2010 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congratulations to Kevin Harvick, Gil Martin, RCR, and anybody else who helped the 29's championship year... wait... DAMMIT, NASCAR DOESN'T GIVE THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO THE BETTER DRIVER! WHO CARES IF KENSETH ONLY GOT 1 WIN IN 2003!!!! 210. dUDE gUY posted: 12.01.2010 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm with you post 209. I love watching the races most times, but I barely keep track of the championship anymore. Pre 2004 it was a test to see who could come up with the best OVERALL season (meaning EVERY. SINGLE. RACE. COUNTS.), now it's become a halfhearted semi-playoff which allows the better teams to use as much of the first 26 races as they want as a test of sorts (basically how Jimmie won it five years in a row. Huzzah) and the chase is a half-skill half-luck 10-race clusterf**k to the finish. The chase was meant to pander to most but seems to satisfy few. I just want a simple points battle, not some goofy, cobbled-together points system horribly mimicking stick-and-ball-sports style playoffs which creates less real excitement and is just more frustrating to watch. 211. CFob posted: 12.02.2010 - 11:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Denny Hamlin is the 2010 Dale Earnhardt Tough Driver." Somebody hand me a bucket quick, I'm gonna puke my guts out." Agreed. I don't recall Dale throwing a temper tantrum and hurling a water bottle at a member of his team because he lost points because of a bad call. I don't recall Dale crying after losing a Championship. And I don't recall Dale crumbling under pressure. Denny Hamlin has nothing in the way of emotional toughness. He can just deal with pain decently. 212. I Seize the Day posted: 12.02.2010 - 12:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't recall Dale crying after losing a Championship." Denny didn't cry, but he was upset about losing the championship. At least he wasn't being vanilla. "And I don't recall Dale crumbling under pressure." How many Daytona 500's did he lose? I like Sr., but I am trying to play Devils Advocate here. 213. Smokefan05 posted: 12.02.2010 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How many Daytona 500's did he lose?" How many times was he in the top 5 when luck bit him in the ass? How many times was he leading at the white when something out of his control happened? 1990 ring a bell? 1997 ring a bell? It's all moot now, he has his 500 and no one can take it from him. 214. I Seize the Day posted: 12.02.2010 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ I know. But when people say Hamlin choked, the seem to automatically forgot luck biting him in the ass at Phoenix. Hamlin choked sure, but bad luck put him in position to choke. Just saying. 215. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2010 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well it just got worse. Denny Hamlin won driver of the year and Mike Ford won crew chief of the year according to The Sporting News. I have never bought or read anything from The Sporting News, so I don't know a lot about them, but they are officially a joke. When you have to perform the Heimlick Maneuver on them before you can hand them their awards, you probably should have awarded somebody else. Granted I'm sure they are sick of giving awards to Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus, what's right is right. The case for Denny: Won a series high 8 races and didn't let ACL surgery derail him. Also, he never played for a water polo team. The case against Denny: He gave the cha$e away. He played it conservative to start with instead of burying the competition because he felt he wasn't capable of running all out without screwing up (which turned out to be the truth at Homestead), put himself in position to be bit by bad luck at Phoenix, and had a Manning-esque post-season choke at Homestead. But then again Peyton has won the MVP 4 times while Brady has only won it once. Also, Joe Montana has the same number of MVPs as Joe "I'm The Guy Who Hands The Ball To Riggins" Theissman. And Favre won it 3 times. BTW, if Denny were to have had the championship firmly in hand at the end of Homestead only to make his mistake at the very end of the race, it would have been a "Favre-esque" choke. The case for Mike Ford: Seriously, Theissman has the same number of MVPs as Montana? And Manning and Favre both have more? No wonder the media gets treated like a joke. Oh, the case for Mike? There isn't one. The case against Mike Ford: He talked trash about the (then) 4 time defending champs after Texas saying they are a better team even though they haven't accomplished anything, the proceeded to get outsmarted by Chad at Phoenix, then had 223 laps and 9 cautions to fix Denny's front end damage, only he never had his team make a serious effort at it. CHOKE!!! 216. Sheamus posted: 12.02.2010 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "put himself in position to be bit by bad luck at Phoenix" by winning leading fella 217. Talon64 posted: 12.02.2010 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I bet Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford would trade away any awards and half their wins from 2010 for the championship. But DOTY awards tend to go to the driver who wins the most races, like Newman in 2003 when he had 8 wins but only finished 6th in the standings. I don't mind, because remember when winning individual races mattered? These days Denny and Mike really would trade half their wins for the championship. 218. Talon64 posted: 12.02.2010 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. won his 8th straight MPD. He's 2 back of Bill Elliott's record 10 straight, but only halfway to Bill's 16 MPD's overall. I wish I could find out the results of the voting for the MPD so we'd have a clue of whether Dale Jr.'s recent struggles is affecting his popularity or not. 219. Talon64 posted: 12.02.2010 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Triple post, but the Sportings News DOTY award was determined by Cup drivers, CC's and owners. So it's Denny and Mike's competitors who voted them Driver and CC of the Year. 220. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2010 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So it's Denny and Mike's competitors who voted them Driver and CC of the Year." Well shit, that explains everything. By the end of the season drivers were openly saying "the sport needs somebody besides JJ winning the championship" most notably Harvick (which begs the question, if you are so damn concerned, then step up and knock them off their throne, but then I realized it's Harvick, he always talks big and races much smaller). They hate this guy cause he is making them all look sick. Of course they won't vote for him. Why would they want to sit back and watch him collect yet another award. Also, he played water polo. 221. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.02.2010 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is wrong with water polo? I don't criticize JJ for playing it. I played it in a swimming class and as a club/intramural sport in college. The sport is a twist on soccer/polo (duh?)/ and swimming. Players nudge one another with their elbows which oftentimes leads to bloody noses. Its an excellent test of cardiovascular fitness. I know water polo is perceived as a less than masculine sport. However, it is more of a real sport than table tennis, which is recreational. 222. Gordo posted: 12.03.2010 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so has anyone mentioned why exactly johnson and the 48 team were not fined for intention of cheating and failing pre race inspection at the phoenix race? 4 years ago johnson and gordon both were fined at the infineon race because of failing pre race inspection, yet when it comes to a championship johnson slides without a penalty? 223. 18fan posted: 12.03.2010 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have the season ending race of 1993 on DVD(the same race that Earnhardt needed to finish 34th and made a 3 wide pass on lap 2) and Rusty Wallace was disappointed that he lost the championship but was excited that winning the finale gave him 10 wins. Proof drivers actually used to value wins instead of treating them as just "There's 10 more bonus points and that's the only reason I should win the race." 224. Bronco posted: 12.04.2010 - 3:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He played it conservative to start with instead of burying the competition because he felt he wasn't capable of running all out without screwing up (which turned out to be the truth at Homestead), put himself in position to be bit by bad luck at Phoenix, and had a Manning-esque post-season choke at Homestead." Lol, Hamlin choked? You're very fond of that word now, aren't you? He just got outpointed over the final 10 races of the season, plain and simple. No need to play the armchair quarterback and say he should have been more aggressive in the chase, because he was strong everywhere except for that mediocre run at Kansas and the troubles in the final two races. If he did give it away, it was by qualifying so bad at Homestead, not by playing it conservative. 225. JimmyBeerDrinker posted: 12.04.2010 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty goodrace 226. CFob posted: 12.04.2010 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Denny didn't cry, but he was upset about losing the championship. At least he wasn't being vanilla." Look at his eyes in that interview right after the race. Listen to his voice. If homeboy wasn't crying, he was smoking down in the car on the cool down lap. "Lol, Hamlin choked? You're very fond of that word now, aren't you? He just got outpointed over the final 10 races of the season, plain and simple. No need to play the armchair quarterback and say he should have been more aggressive in the chase, because he was strong everywhere except for that mediocre run at Kansas and the troubles in the final two races. If he did give it away, it was by qualifying so bad at Homestead, not by playing it conservative." Did you even WATCH the Homestead race? He spun himself out in the FIRST 25 laps. And never really recovered. He and his crew made several glaring errors. How can you even say he was outpointed, when he went into the last race leading points. His crew chief screwed him over at Phoenix with poor strategy (again showing the importance of a crew chief that you apparently do not comprehend) and he screwed the pooch at Homestead all on his own. To call it anything else is a total lie. It was Denny's first time as a legitimate Championship contender in his entire career. I don't recall him running anywhere consistently enough to have even contended for one in a Late Model. It happens. Sympathize with the guy if you must (I personally won't, I can't feel too bad for someone I dislike as much as Hamlin), but don't lie to yourself and others because you're a fan. He crumbled under pressure like a house on a cracked foundation. He learned and if he ever makes it back to that scenario things could turn out differently. Denny is a hell of a driver, even if he is a complete douche, and he could easily be the one to knock Jimmie off of his throne. But what happened at Homestead happened. 227. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2010 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol, Hamlin choked?" I guess you are right, Biffle and Menard should have wrecked themselves to give Denny the extra room he needed. On Lap 24. "You're very fond of that word now, aren't you?" Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out Captain Obvious. "He just got outpointed over the final 10 races of the season, plain and simple." Really? I didn't realize that (sarcasm). Kinda odd seeing as how he had the most speed. "No need to play the armchair quarterback and say he should have been more aggressive in the chase, because he was strong everywhere except for that mediocre run at Kansas and the troubles in the final two races." And those "troubles" at Homestead were self inflicted. "If he did give it away, it was by qualifying so bad at Homestead, not by playing it conservative." When the 11 team decided to turn it on, they were rocket fast (Martinsville, Texas (wins), Phoenix, and Homestead (wicked fast until encountering "troubles"). So why didn't they do that over all the races? Then when they had their issues, they would have had a cushion to fall back on. Look at the 48 last year. They got wrecked at texas, finished 39th, but still won easily. Because they went fast in every race and had a huge cushion. 228. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2010 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have the season ending race of 1993 on DVD(the same race that Earnhardt needed to finish 34th and made a 3 wide pass on lap 2)" First of all, I agree 100% with what you said about drivers actually having pride once upon a time and caring about winning. Just a quick thought from me about the above quote: To me, that pass was the ultimate Earnhardt moment. And Ned Jarrett's commentary cemeted it (The man can't stand it, he has to race). With a very important championship on the line, his potential 6th which would put him in position to match The King and a chance to repay Rusty for 1989, he was simply genetically incapable of taking it easy even with a fairly simple task ahead of him (finish 34th or better in an era when you could count on at least 10 DNFs per race, so basically, just finish and the championship is your's). And unlike Denny, he could pull it off without wrecking himself. That one moment, and Ned's explanation, summed up Dale as a racer better than any other moment in my opinion. To me it's even more telling than the 1987 Winston. Yes, that race showed his incredible desire and ultimate refusal to give ground no matter how badly he might be behind in speed (Bill was murdering them that day) and just his inability to surrender. It also showed his freakish car control when he went into the grass and a) didn't wreck and b) kept the lead, which was also blessed with some great commentary (and Earnhardt's still got the lead, INCREDIBLE!!!). It was probably his best overall driving performance, but it was a non points event so he didn't have a lot to lose. 229. TimmyH posted: 12.05.2010 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Earnhardt is easily the most overrated driver in NASCAR history. Too many of his wins just came from wrecking people out of the way, and NASCAR let him get away with it because otherwise too many rednecks would complain. He had no finesse, just an ability to man-handle a boxy car in an era when the cars were far simpler to drive. As soon as Jeff Gordon entered the sport he became pretty much irrelevant. He's top 20, sure, but Gordon is a better driver, Rusty was better, Bill Elliot was better, Waltrip was better, Davey Allison was better, and don't even get me started on how many of the all time greats were better drivers. (ok, maybe a few, Petty, Pearson, Allison, Yarbrough). He was a good points driver, but nowhere near the most talented. And as far as great points racers, Jimmie Johnson is even better, and a better all-around driver to boot. Tony Stewart is more talented as well. Dale is just overrated. Too many act like he's the best, or second best all time, and he just flat out isn't. He is the epitome of overrated, the very definition. If everyone would say, "ok, maybe top 10, definitely top 20" then he wouldn't be overrated. He's only so highly rated because he died early, and the redneck fanbase revers him like sort of Kurt Cobain of NASCAR. And it's amazing how many people seem to be in denial about this. People are afraid to say it, but I'm not, and I'm sure there are others out there who have been waiting for someone to finally say it. It's frustrating watching everyone put him on such a pedestal. 230. 18fan posted: 12.05.2010 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although Keith Jackson is remembered mostly for his great college football commentary for ABC, but he did call several races for ABC including the 1987 Winston. 231. Anonymous posted: 12.05.2010 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TimmyH. 7 Championships. 'Nough Said. 232. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I realize post #229 is a troll post, meant not for discussion but to get us riled up. I realize it is best if we just ignore them because they go away if we don't respond because they have no point to make, just looking for an argument. But there are a few things mentioned there I would like to get off my chest: "Too many of his wins just came from wrecking people out of the way" Alright, this is one thing that has become way too blown up as the years pass and often told "Earnhardt was the Intimidator" has gained steam, people assume that half of his wins must have been due to wrecking the leader or knocking them out of the way. The only time he actually wrecked the leader to win a race was Bristol 1999. And the number of times he pulled the bump and run to win a short track race is way overblown. In 1985 he knocked the shit out of Tim Richmond at Richmond (the track, with Tim on older tires) and the Bristol Night Race. Watch any race from the old Richmond Fairgrounds. If bumping people penalizes you in historical ranking, then everyone who raced there is DQed. Remember Dale's admittedly inexcusable wrecking of Darrell there in 1986? Darrell, on 4 new tires to Dale's 4, bumped Dale at least 5 times trying to get around him. It doesn't excuse what Dale did, but it just shows that everyone bumped everyone on the short tracks back then. At Dale's Martinsville 1985 win, Darrell bumped Dale coming off Turn 2, but Dale blocked him to perserve the win. Bumping in that era was a way of life. The only other bump n runs from Dale I can think of were Bobby Hamilton at The Rock in 1996 (although video replay shows it unclear as to whether bobby got loose first, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the purposes of this argument). And let's not forget Dale got bumped or spun out of the lead a few times himself (Martinsville '87, Wilkesboro '89, Pocono '00). Bumping is racing. That is no reason hold it against anyone. "and NASCAR let him get away with it because otherwise too many rednecks would complain." I love the way people refer to us as "rednecks" like it is a derogotory term. Us rednecks know we are rednecks, refer to ourselves as rednecks, and are proud to live the redneck lifestyle. "Oh, you're a redneck!" Damn right. 233. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He had no finesse" Which explains why he had 9 wins at Darlington, 9 at Bristol, 6 at Martinsville, 5 at Wilkesboro, 3 at the old Richomnd Fairgrounds (which was reconfigured in 1988) and a very good average finish on road courses, including being in the Top 5 of ALL TIME Top 5 finishes at Riverside even though he only got to race there in its last 9 years, and everyone ahead of him raced there since at least the early 70s. You need finesse to do that. 27 of his wins came on short tracks, with an additional 9 at Darlington. You need finesse to win at those places. "just an ability to man-handle a boxy car in an era when the cars were far simpler to drive." Far simpler to drive? That's a joke. With the lack of aerodynamics, that makes cars tougher to drive. You think man-handling is easy? That is one of his greatest qualities. He could manhandle lesser equipment into victory lane. Only in 1987 did he have the best horsepower. BTW, The Lumina showed up 1/3 of the way through '89, ending the "boxy car era". Dale won 35 "boxy car races" in 10 and 1/3 seasons. He won 41 "sleeker car" races in 11 and 2/3 seasons. Nice try, buddy. And for the record, in each era, he had a 3 season stretch of bad results due to outside circumstances (from '81-'83 he suffered through Osterlund pulling the rug out from under him, then 2 years in Bud Moore's unreliable Fords, and from '97-'99 he fought injury issues and RCR falling behind) so that evens out. "As soon as Jeff Gordon entered the sport he became pretty much irrelevant." Wrong. During Jeff's phenomenal 5 year stretch from '95 to '99, Dale was still very relevant. But he was held back by a few things. First of all, RCR never got a grip on the new Monte Carlo until 2000 when it was redesigned, while HMS, and their endless dollars (something RCR never had) were able to engineer rocketships. Secondly, Dale's 1996 injury and his stubbornness in getting it fixed held him back. Honestly, had he just sat out the rest of '96, got everything properly healed and got the necessary surgeries out of the way, I think the end of his career would have been stronger. But that wasn't Dale, giving in was not in his nature, even when it was to his detriment. He turned the car over to Mike skinner at Indy which brought him to tears, then won the pole at The Glen with a broken collarbone (ouch!) and a broken sternum (f**king ouch!). Thirdly, RCR added a second team with a bum driver, and handled it all wrong. Instead of pooling their resources, they operated as two different teams, putting a huge strain on RCR cause they didn't do it right. Look at RCR's worst seasons: 1997 (when they added a second car), 2002 (when they added a third car), and 2009 (when they added a 4th car). They just don't know how to expand. Even with all this going on, Dale still finished 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th, and 7th in points over those 5 Gordon dominated years with 11 total wins. Considering everything that happened, that isn't bad. Hell, how many current drivers have won 11 or more races in the past 5 years (the JJ era)? JJ (obviously), Stewart(15), Kyle (17), Carl (13), and Denny (16). 5 drivers. Even during Dale's down years, he had better success than the majority of drivers can. Then, in 2000, with RCR actually taking part in redesigning the Monte Carlo, RCR getting financial support from that company whose name I can't remember at the moment, and Dale finally getting off season surgery 3 years after getting hurt (that was one stubborn SOB), he finished 2nd in points to Bobby Labonte, who completed all but 6 LAPS all season long and was in contention every week again. So it's not like it was all Gordon owning him. Yes, Gordon, Ray, and all of HMS had it going on and were kicking everyone's ass. But put Dale in the #5 car during that stretch, and take away the '96 Dega crash, and things would be much closer. "but Gordon is a better driver" Dale raced 22 full time seasons. He only went winless in 2 of them (both Top 10 points finishes) and finished out of the Top 10 in points just twice (a pair of 12ths in '82 and '92 with a victory in each of those seasons). Jeff has raced 18 full time seasons, and already has 3 winless seasons, including his current stretch of 1 win in the past 3 seasons. He has hit a worse downward slope than Dale ever did in a shorter amount of time, and at a MUCH younger age. His injury years ('08-'10 due to his back, which I think is still bugging him) have been worse than Dale's. Plus there is this: Jeff has been coddled to be a racer since he was 4 years old, resulting in him getting a full time Cup ride the year he turned 22. Dale's father, despite being a dirt track legend, refused to help Dale until he finished high school, which Dale never did, so he certainly was never coddled. His first full time Cup season came the year he turned 28. Plus Jeff has been on the same team for his entire career, which has always been elite. They had already contended for a few Winston Cups and had some big years (Richmond in '86, Darrell in '89). Dale won ROY and the Winston Cup in his first two seasons with Osterlund, then Rod suddenly bailed out the next season leaving Dale in limbo. JD Stacy bought the team, gutted it, and Dale had to finish the year with Childress, who was still running as an independent. Then he spent the next two years with Bud Moore's Fords, which broke down in half of their races. Then he rejoined Richard in 1984, and spent the next two years helping them build cause they weren't quite ready. Give Dale tons of minor league racing experience from the age of 5 onwards, and give him a full time ride at 22 with a stable organization ready to break out, and see what happens. 234. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Rusty was better" HA! This one is easily disprovable because they raced each other in their primes. First of all, even Rusty's biggest strength, short tracks (25 wins) and his 9 Bristol wins, are bested by Dale's 27 short track wins and also has 9 Bristol wins. For comparison, I will take their results head to head from '88 through '00. I will not include '86 and '87 because those were Rusty's first few years on an elite team, and he had to get used to it. I am doing Rusty a huge favor by doing this considering those were two of Dale's best years, and Dale's first two years in elite equipment were his first two years in Winston Cup period, and he won the championship his second year. Rusty did better in '88 (6 wins to Dale's 3 and finished better in points) and in '89. I will give him '89 because he won one more race than Dale. He beat him in the championship thanks to Dale's broken camshaft 13 laps into the Charlotte race, Ricky Rudd taking him out of Wilkesboro after Dale dominated, and Rusty himself wrecking Dale at Rockingham. Dale was way better in '90 and '91, and slightly better in 1992 when they were both pure shit. I'll give them a tie in 1993 since Rusty won 10 races, even though Dale won 6 races himself and beat him pretty badly in the points. If Rusty hadn't wrecked Dale at Dover, Dale would have clinched one race early. Dale wins 1994 even thought Rusty doubled his win total (8 to 4). Dale clinched the Winston Cup with TWO RACES still to go. Dale also wins 1995 (3 more wins, and 3 spots higher in points). I give them a tie in 1996 (Rusty won 5 races to Dale's 2, but finished 3 spots behind him in points despite Dale's injury). I also give them a tie in 1997 (Rusty won once to Dale's goose egg) but finished 5 whole spots behind him in points. Rusty wins 1998. They each had one win, but Rusty finished 4 spots higher in points. Dale wins 1999 (3 wins to 1 and a spot higher in points) and 2000 (Rusty won 4 races to Dale's 2, but Dale was the only driver to put any pressure on Bobby in the points until the last 1/3 of the year when Bobby pulled away). So the final tally: 7-3-3. In those 13 seasons, Rusty won 50 races to Dale's 45, but Dale won 4 championships to Rusty's 1, and only finished higher in points 3 times. Also, I'm discounting 2 crucial years of Dale's prime ('86 and '87) to make my point. And considering Dale hit his career low in that span ('97-'99), and Rusty's wouldn't come until '02-'04. Next..... "Bill Elliot was better" At Michigan and Pocono. That's about it thanks to the horsepower Dale never had except in 1987 when he beat Bill at Pocono and Michigan. Hmmmm. (Just a quick thought, why is Ernie Elliott never mentioned for potential Hall of Famers? His engines from '84 thru '89 blew everyone else off the big tracks like Fartman) Like Rusty we can compare their respective primes. To be nice to Bill, I'll start at 1984, when they got the Coors sponsorship and end in 1992, before Junior got divorced, gutted the #11 team, and Bill started his own team and never won. Bill wins '84 with one more win and one spot higher in points. In '85, I'm actually gonna give Bill TWO wins for his 11 win season while Dale won 4 short tracks and finished way behind Bill in points. (BTW, to show how stupid the cha$e is if they had one in 1985, Dale would have finished ahead of Bill in points. How stupid is that?) 1986 is undoubtably Dale's (championship, 5 wins to Bill's 2) and I'm tempted to give Dale two wins for 1987 when he won 11 races and only had to START the THIRD to last race to clinch the Winston Cup, but Bill finished the year very strong, winning 3 of the last 4 races so I'll only give Dale one. 1988 was undeniable Bill's (a championship and double Dale's win total). But Dale gets 3 straight in '98, '90, and '91 easily. Bill gets 1992 easily, 5 wins, almost a Winston Cup, and finished 46 spots ahead of Dale in the points. Dale wins 5-4. Bill had 38 wins over that stretch to Dale's 44. Dale also finished ahead in points 5 times over those 9 years, winning 4 championships to Bill's 1. Also, that is a relatively short prime for Bill, especially compared to Dale's. Throw in his lack of versatility, he is great, but doesn't touch Dale. "Waltrip was better" 7 championships to 3. That trumps the fact that Darrell has 8 more wins. Plus, Darrell's championships came with Junior Johnson, who had won 3 in a row right before DW got there, and darn near won another one in 1992 after he left. Also, DiGard won a championship with Bobby Allison after DW left. Dale's first championship came for a team that only EXISTED for 3 and 1/2 years, and for Childress, who has only just recently even sniffed another one without Dale. The thing with these 2 is Darrell's best years '81 thru '85 came during Dale's worst years as he struggled to find a permanent home. Darrell won 3 Winston Cups and 38 races while Dale won just 9. But Darrell's years of switching rides ('86-'92, I'm gonna forget that everything in Darrell's career from '93 to '00 ever happened) was during Dale's best years with Dale winning 4 championships and 38 races to DW's 17. So it is hard to get a good head to head comparison. But Dale's championships trump everything. 235. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Davey Allison was better" Now, this is a sensitive one. Unfortunately we'll never know what Davey could have done. Obviously he had winning figured out, 19 wins in 6 and 1/2 seasons. Plus, he was just getting consistency figured out as shown by a pretty good point standing in '93 at the time of his death despite not having very fast cars, showed extraordinary toughness in '92 racing through a ton of injuries, including an awful Pocono flip, plus the emotional pain of losing his brother. He also raced well in 1988 while his father was barely clinging to life. He also showed remarkable versatility, winning 4 plate races, the last unrestricted Dega race, short track races at Richmond, Wilkesboro, and Bristol. One milers Rockingham and Dover, 1.5 mile Charlotte twice (not counting his back to back Winstons), 3 wins at 2 mile Michigan, and even a road course win at tough Sears Point (I don't care what anybody says, Rudd deserved to be penalized and the right driver won that race in '91). The question is, could he be consistently great year in and year out like Dale did? Could he bring an entire sport to its knees in submission like Dale did? Doubtful, but he would have won multiple championships and 50+ races. But he also had horsepower Dale never had. "Jimmie Johnson is even better, and a better all-around driver to boot." JJ is great, but put Earnhardt in the #11 Junior Johnson car in '79 (the equivalent of what happened with JJ in '02), give Junior the ability to keep his team stable the way Rick has over the last 10 years, and make all the other great drivers of the 80s and 90s head cases, and see what happens. Dale won his championships despite never being in a situation anywhere close to what JJ is in. Again, JJ is undeniably great, and this year showed he can win the championship without the fastest car (something Dale did 6 times). What Dale did would be the equivalent of JJ winning the championship in '03 in Cal Wells car, Cal shutting down shop one year later, JJ spending a few years bouncing around, trying to find a stable ride, then getting in a fringe team that had a couple of wins, like MWR for example, and building a dynasty with them. "Tony Stewart is more talented as well." Dale routinely turned chicken shit into chicken salad. Tony is a head case that turns chicken salad into chicken diarrhea. BTW, am I the only one that finds it funny Tony's career high for wins at JGR was 6, while Kyle and Denny (another couple of head cases) each have 8 win seasons there? Also Bobby Labonte, somebody who never lit up the win column, won 5 times in 1999. I'm just saying. 236. Smokefan05 posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale routinely turned chicken shit into chicken salad. Tony is a head case that turns chicken salad into chicken diarrhea. BTW, am I the only one that finds it funny Tony's career high for wins at JGR was 6, while Kyle and Denny (another couple of head cases) each have 8 win seasons there? Also Bobby Labonte, somebody who never lit up the win column, won 5 times in 1999. I'm just saying." Either give Tony credit for what he has done or just shut it. Your hating is getting annoying. Tony has more Cups than BLab, Diva or Baby Busch combined. 237. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(ok, maybe a few, Petty, Pearson, Allison, Yarbrough)" Petty- He got to run in more races, and in quite a few he was the only driver with factory support (especially once Pearson started running part time schedules). Allison- Despite his obscene win total, he couldn't seal the deal in a championship race until late in his career. Cale- In 1980 Dale beat Cale head to head. And when you consider the circumstances, it is pretty incredible. Cale had been around for a while and had a ton of experience. He was on the Junior Johnson juggernaut that had finished a 3-peat one year earlier, and would win 3 of the next 5 championships with Darrell. Dale was driving for a team in just its 3rd year of existance, it would wind up folding halfway through the next season, and he was just a second year Cup driver. Yet he still beat Cale head to head. Pearson- In my opinion, the only person you can make a legitimate argument for being better. He raced for the championship just 4 times. He won 3 and finished 2nd in the other. From then on he ran partial schedules, so it is hard to compare them. But I say if you put Dale in top equipment like the Wood Brothers Mercurys Pearson drove in the 70s, and let him just worry about wins so he could run his preferred win or wreck driving style, I think he'd be just as successful, if not a bit more. But Pearson was damn good. I wish we could redo his career and let him run the full schedule about 18 times. That would be interesting. "He is the epitome of overrated, the very definition." The definition of overrated is Peyton Manning, followed by LeBron James, then Kyle Busch. Overrated people don't win 7 championships and remain a force for 22 straight seasons. Overratd people don't outperform their peers in 4 different generations (the Petty-Pearson-Allison-Cale generation when he first entered Winston cup, the Darrell-Rusty-Bill generation of the mid to late 80s, the Rusty-Mark-Davey-DJ generation of the early to mid 90s, and the Gordon-Stewart-DJ-Labonte generation in his last season). I rest my case. 238. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2010 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Either give Tony credit for what he has done or just shut it. Your hating is getting annoying. Tony has more Cups than BLab, Diva or Baby Busch combined." Sorry, I respect your opinion and your being a fan of Tony's, but even you have to admit there is a ton of complexity with Tony that has to be mentioned. A lot of good (the way he helps out grassroots racing by running sprint car teams and Eldora Speedway, the way he gives millions of dollars away to charity like it is water, and his unbelievable natural talent), a lot of bad, and a lot of ugly. A ton of brilliance right alongside a ton of "what the hell was he thinking?". I respect his ability behind the wheel, but shake my head at what I feel could have been better numbers if he were mentally stable. 239. Ryan posted: 12.05.2010 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just a quick thought from me about the above quote: To me, that pass was the ultimate Earnhardt moment. And Ned Jarrett's commentary cemeted it (The man can't stand it, he has to race). With a very important championship on the line, his potential 6th which would put him in position to match The King and a chance to repay Rusty for 1989, he was simply genetically incapable of taking it easy even with a fairly simple task ahead of him (finish 34th or better in an era when you could count on at least 10 DNFs per race, so basically, just finish and the championship is your's). And unlike Denny, he could pull it off without wrecking himself. That one moment, and Ned's explanation, summed up Dale as a racer better than any other moment in my opinion. To me it's even more telling than the 1987 Winston. Yes, that race showed his incredible desire and ultimate refusal to give ground no matter how badly he might be behind in speed (Bill was murdering them that day) and just his inability to surrender. It also showed his freakish car control when he went into the grass and a) didn't wreck and b) kept the lead, which was also blessed with some great commentary (and Earnhardt's still got the lead, INCREDIBLE!!!). It was probably his best overall driving performance, but it was a non points event so he didn't have a lot to lose. That's very true DSFF, I can remember Ned Jarrett saying that like it was yesterday. Great moments in Nascar history. Dale would have raced as hard if the winning prize would have been a million dollars or two hot dogs and a coke. The man loved to race above anything else. That was his life. 240. Ryan posted: 12.05.2010 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TimmyH you just got dominated by DSFF, better luck next time. 241. TimmyH posted: 12.05.2010 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So yeah, I really don't think someone calling themselves "DaleSrFanForever" is going to give an unbiased analysis of Dale Earnhardt's career, and I'm not going to waste my time reading through that mountain of "OMG he's the bestest ever!!!" text. I just think the guy is overrated beyond belief, even more so than Richard Petty. He is just a classic case of a famous person becoming overrated because they died early. And that wasn't a troll post. Sorry, but not everyone considers Dale Earnhardt the greatest driver who ever lived, and I don't think saying so just because everyone else who feels the same way is afraid to say it, makes somebody a troll. 242. TimmyH posted: 12.05.2010 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "TimmyH you just got dominated by DSFF, better luck next time. " Oh you think so, do you? All I got from all of that was one simple redneck trying to convince himself that his hero is still somehow revered like a god by all race fans. What a waste of time. What's even sadder is that he still took the time to write it, even though he thought I was a troll. Can anyone say, "insecure"? I think I'll wait to hear from some who doesn't have a #3 bumper sticker on the back of their pick-up, and probably a big #3 flag displayed prominently in their house. What's next, RichardPettyFanForever coming in here to tell me how his 200 wins are the greatest accomplishment in NASCAR history, because, "200 is a biiiiiig number man, I tell you what". 243. Bronco posted: 12.06.2010 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Really? I didn't realize that (sarcasm). Kinda odd seeing as how he had the most speed." Really? He had the most speed? That explains why he started the Homestead race from the 19th row, why he didn't start any better than 17th after the Martinsville pole, and why 2010 was his worst season from an average start perspective, right? The reason he didn't seem fast in the first half of the chase is simply because places like Dover, Kansas, California and Charlotte aren't the 11's best tracks. Those are places where the #48 kicks ass, winning 3 of those 4 last year. A choke is pissing something away when you have it in hand, like Ambrose at Montreal and Sonoma, JPM at Indy, Gordon losing the Phoenix race on a restart to Newman of all people. Having a 15 points "Denny is a hell of a driver, even if he is a complete douche, and he could easily be the one to knock Jimmie off of his throne." Why is Denny a douche? Because he threw a water bottle at Phoenix after having to pit? Or is it because him and your favorite driver don't get along "Thirdly, RCR added a second team with a bum driver, and handled it all wrong" Only a clueless clown like DSFF would call Mike Skinner, one of the greatest drivers in the history of the Truck series, and the best driver to never win a Cup race a "bum". Then again, he called a proven talent like Dale Jr a bum for not performing to the lofty expectations that he has, while at the same worshipping the ground that Brad "It took me 35 starts to score a top ten in my Cup ride" Keselowski walks on, so it is hard to take him seriously. 244. Sean posted: 12.06.2010 - 1:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the Earnhardt being overrated comment, I don't really agree. I would place him fourth after Pearson, Yarborough, and Petty (but I do understand the arguments for him being over Petty and Yarborough), and agree with most of DSFF's comments about Earnhardt being over Wallace, Elliott, Waltrip, Davey, Johnson, Gordon, and Stewart (at one point around 2007 I actually ranked Gordon over Earnhardt myself since he faced more full-time competitors but the last three seasons totally led me to change my mind on that). However, I do understand how TimmyH feels because that's kind of the way I feel about Davey Allison, whom I do like but everybody seems to hype up like he's a top ten all-time talent when I kind of feel he was a bit second tier, something somewhere below Mark Martin but above Jeff Burton. When people speculate on how many wins he would have had I see numbers like 50 (which DSFF said), 70, or even 90 and presumptions that he WOULD HAVE won titles which I find fairly ridiculous myself (given the long list of legends who haven't) and I will explain why I think Davey is among the most overrated drivers ever, and why his career wouldn't have remotely lived up to those kind of expectations. Basically, I feel about Davey Allison the way so many other people feel about Jimmie Johnson. Between Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon, he was the only rookie to be in something resembling premier equipment (actually, this is a bigger advantage than Johnson had because Johnson arrived in an era when ALL the big new stars arrived in top equipment). The Ranier ride had won every year from 1978-1985 and was certainly one of the top teams on the circuit, something the other late '70s/'80s rookies who eventually became stars like R. Wallace, Jarrett, Kulwicki, Martin, Irvan, Richmond, Rudd, Gant, G. Bodine, etc... did not really have (at first). Davey got his foot through the door due to his father's success landing a Junior Johnson ride before he was even a rookie and a ride that pretty much everyone who entered it won in afterward. Yes, I grant that Cale Yarborough went winless in 1986 the year before, but I say he was already pretty much washed up at that time. He had the same advantage Buddy Baker and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (but oddly not Dale Jarrett) had getting into great rides at a relatively young age because of being second generation drivers, an advantage most of the true legends did not have. Yes, I'd rank Davey over Baker or Junior for sure, but I think he has been elevated undeservedly over several of his peers as a result of getting a good ride earlier on. Davey's 1987-1990 looks fairly underwhelming to me. Despite the quality of his cars, he didn't really do much better than 10th in points when I'd expect more from that level of equipment and the Yates engines. For that matter, while he was fairly versatile and won at every type of track, that should be expected of pretty much anyone with as many wins as he had, and I think guys like Rudd, Gant, G. Bodine, Richmond, and Irvan were MORE versatile in the same time period with more success on short tracks and road courses (often in worse cars) than Davey who got many of his wins on superspeedways with killer engines just as Elliott did, but Davey never quite had the kind of knockout seasons Elliott had in the late '80s. I would seriously rank Davey third among the Yates drivers behind Irvan and Rudd (but ahead of Jarrett), which most would call scandalous. Irvan built up the #4 team from being total garbage into a top-five threat rapidly, while Davey in 1987-1990 pretty much drove at the level of his top-ten equipment (or even possibly under it some of those years). I give Davey 1991 and 1992 (especially 1992 due to driving hurt), but I add that in 1992 the Ford Thunderbird had a monopoly on the competition that year and the year was generally a total fluke as the drivers who dominated the surrounding years (Earnhardt, Rudd, R. Wallace, and Irvan) were burdened by driving GM cars. Then in 1993 Davey wins one race and is 5th in points in a partial season, which more or less reflects his talent in my opinion. Irvan entered in 1994 and led more laps in his partial season than Davey did in any of his FULL seasons (and won more races and led more laps in fewer starts than Davey did in 1993), and Davey never came close to matching that consistency (even if you remove his 1992 injuries I'm not sure he would have done it). I see Davey's career arc as something like Greg Biffle's: a couple GREAT seasons, a bunch of back-of-the-top-ten seasons, but generally second tier. And it puzzles me that people think he would have gone on to Jeff Gordon numbers. He never came close to matching Earnhardt or Gordon's best consistency. His only championship-caliber season was '92, when everybody was inconsistent and only the Fords were seriously competitive, which doesn't indicate that he would have been a year-in, year-out championship threat to me. Irvan did in 1994 (admittedly another year the Fords dominated, but not quite as much, and he was way more consistent than Davey ever was), and Irvan gets the credit for building up Morgan-McClure FAST while Davey pretty much had slightly subpar Ranier/Yates seasons until 1991. Irvan was much more prolific on the road courses and somewhat more on the short tracks too. He could have taken a title from Earnhardt or Gordon uninjured; I don't think Davey could have. Davey would have gotten 30-35 wins and several title misses, a la Mark Martin. That may even be generous as I don't think Yates would have gone to a multi-car team as quickly had Davey lived and would have slowly become irrelevant a la Morgan-McClure as Ford would have made its bed with Roush and Martin and dumped Yates sooner than it actually did (if Davey lived, I think Martin wins a title, while Davey and Jarrett do not). My projected stats for Davey are nothing to sneeze at, but compared to how he's hyped ("the guy who would have stopped Jeff Gordon"), well, I can understand how TimmyH feels. I think Davey has been inflated by death. As for Rudd, again, I feel most of the time Rudd had worse rides than Davey, and did better in the points two out of five times. Rudd beat Davey in the '89 points (while driving for KENNY BERNSTEIN) and in '91 (driving for Hendrick in their weakest period), and led the way for Chevrolet in '92 beating Earnhardt, Irvan, and Rusty (while Davey didn't win the title for Ford in a year Ford dominated). Rudd gets marked down for usually only winning once a year I guess, but I think that's mistaken. His career problem was that he was with all the right teams at all the wrong times. Childress in '82-'83 (before they became a powerhouse with Earnhardt), Bud Moore in '84-'87 (when they were clearly beginning to slip, although he did better than Earnhardt's Bud Moore performances some of those years), Kenny Bernstein in '88-'89 (a nothing team besides him and Larry McReynolds), Hendrick in '90-'93 (the Chevy Lumina years, the only time in their history they were clearly outmatched, and he still finished second in points once and led Chevy in '92), himself in '94-'99 (and he did better than any owner-driver of that era not named Kulwicki), then Yates in '00-'02 (which was the closest he came to driving for a team at their peak, either that or DiGard in '81 but he was probably too old by then, and too inexperienced at DiGard...) Not to mention he lit it up on the short tracks and road courses more than Davey did (just like Irvan). Both Rudd and Irvan might even exceed Davey in terms of true grit, with Rudd's 1998 Martinsville win being just as gritty as Davey's injured wins (but in WAY worse equipment, so I give the edge to Rudd here), and Irvan having perhaps the worst injury in NASCAR history to win afterward... 245. Sean posted: 12.06.2010 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I could make similar arguments for Gant, Bonnett, and probably G. Bodine, who spent years driving worse equipment than Davey ever had and winning. Okay, maybe not Bodine, although I'm very impressed by his wins in the #15 and the #7 as they were sputtering, more than Davey, who drove one solid car his entire career... What am I missing about Davey that puts him so far beyond Irvan, G. Bodine, Bonnett, Gant, Rudd, and other guys who are usually considered inferior, even though they had fairly comparable stats despite all of them having stints in worse cars? I'd probably rank all five of those over Davey, and it puzzles me why Davey is considered so much greater... Despite my criticism, I like Davey a lot, but it gets kind of crazy when everybody seems to pencil him in for 50 wins when I don't think he'd have come close. One more comment about DSFF's long post (which was admittedly probably shorter than mine). I think the Cal Wells to Rod Osterlund comparison is a little out-of-whack also. Dave Marcis finished fifth in points in the Osterlund car before Earnhardt arrived and clearly they had good stuff. While Osterlund was a second-tier team compared to Petty, Junior Johnson, or the Wood Brothers at the time of Earnhardt's arrival, they didn't suck. A more reasonable comparison for Jimmie Johnson vs. Dale Earnhardt would be winning the title in his second season for a second-tier team like Evernham or Ganassi. A good team that can occasionally threaten for wins but second-tier and hardly world-beaters. Even Earnhardt couldn't have won the 2003 title in a Cal Wells car... Osterlund was never as bad as Wells. 246. Smokefan05 posted: 12.06.2010 - 1:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sorry, I respect your opinion and your being a fan of Tony's, but even you have to admit there is a ton of complexity with Tony that has to be mentioned. A lot of good (the way he helps out grassroots racing by running sprint car teams and Eldora Speedway, the way he gives millions of dollars away to charity like it is water, and his unbelievable natural talent), a lot of bad, and a lot of ugly. A ton of brilliance right alongside a ton of "what the hell was he thinking?". I respect his ability behind the wheel, but shake my head at what I feel could have been better numbers if he were mentally stable." Tony and AJ Foyt are as "old school" as you can get. AJ Foyt said on a Wind Tunnel interview if 2 of todays drivers would handle "back in the days" racing, he said Jeff Gordon would be one and Tony would be other. Tony is the AJ foyt of this generation. Even AJ had his "stablitity issues." Old School racers are like that. Even Mario Andretti had his moments. "So yeah, I really don't think someone calling themselves "DaleSrFanForever" is going to give an unbiased analysis of Dale Earnhardt's career, and I'm not going to waste my time reading through that mountain of "OMG he's the bestest ever!!!" text. I just think the guy is overrated beyond belief, even more so than Richard Petty. He is just a classic case of a famous person becoming overrated because they died early. And that wasn't a troll post. Sorry, but not everyone considers Dale Earnhardt the greatest driver who ever lived, and I don't think saying so just because everyone else who feels the same way is afraid to say it, makes somebody a troll." Look past the numbers (and hate) and think would NASCAR be where is it today if Petty and Earnhardt hadn't did what they did? "Oh you think so, do you? All I got from all of that was one simple redneck trying to convince himself that his hero is still somehow revered like a god by all race fans. What a waste of time. What's even sadder is that he still took the time to write it, even though he thought I was a troll. Can anyone say, "insecure"?" Sterotyping isn't going to get your anywhere on here. "I think I'll wait to hear from some who doesn't have a #3 bumper sticker on the back of their pick-up, and probably a big #3 flag displayed prominently in their house. What's next, RichardPettyFanForever coming in here to tell me how his 200 wins are the greatest accomplishment in NASCAR history, because, "200 is a biiiiiig number man, I tell you what"." No one will beat 200 wins, no one. You know, the more you post, the more you sound like a Jimmie Johnson fan. Unless i'm mistaken. "Why is Denny a douche? Because he threw a water bottle at Phoenix after having to pit? Or is it because him and your favorite driver don't get along" He is douche cuz he acts like one, being pissed at Phonix for having the deal sealed and blowing it i would be pissed too. But other than that he acts like a douche. (let the attacks begin) "Only a clueless clown like DSFF." You can be clueless yourself sometimes. 247. TimmyH posted: 12.06.2010 - 2:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No one will beat 200 wins, no one." I agree. But have you seriously looked at a lot of those wins? The tracks, number of laps, number of competitors, names of competitors, margin of victory, etc, are you really going to tell me that those 200 wins are the same thing as winning 200 Cup races today? The majority of them are not even remotely comparable. A Nationwide win today is harder to come by than a lot of Richard Petty's wins. If you're going to measure the difficulty of the win by the talent that it came against, competitiveness of the cars, difficulty of the track, length of the race, there is absolutely no comparison between a hell of a lot of Richard Petty's wins and a modern day win. That 200 win stat is the most overrated stat in NASCAR history, one that I doubt will ever be surpassed. Richard Petty was still a great driver (and better overall than Earnhardt), but I think he'd be more of a 80 win, 3 or 4 title driver if he had to race entirely in the modern era. "You know, the more you post, the more you sound like a Jimmie Johnson fan. " Well I am a Johnson fan actually, are there not a lot of those around here? That guy is already an all-time great. Few drivers are better closers at the end of a race, and few have ever been better at racing for points. If I had to make a choice between Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt to win a race on a restart with 2 laps to go, I will pick Johnson every single time. If I had to pick between Johnson and Earnhardt to close out a championship in the final 5 races of the year, again, Johnson hands down. He's going to make Earnhardt's 76 wins look like a joke and possibly rewrite the record book on championships by the time he's done. 248. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In regards to Davey Allison, I think it's hard to say one way or another how his career would have gone. If you look at the first 4 years of his career, he was a race-winning top 12 driver........but the last 2 seasons he ran to completion, he led the series in wins AND finished third in points. The reason why people have these lofty expectations of 'what might have been' is because Davey was THERE. After 4 years of mediocre success (compared to the expectations) he had found the consistency necessary to run for titles. And if it wasn't for that ill-timed spin of Irvan at Atlanta in '92, HE would have died the defending champ rather than Kulwicki. I'm not gonna be one of these people to sit here and put numbers on Davey's potential........all I'm saying is that I can see where people get their lofty 'what-if' totals. Davey was un the cusp of his prime.......he had the seasoning, he had the team.....it just wasn't meant to be. 249. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And is it just me, or was Ernie Irvan's season in '94 one of the biggest let-downs in the history of the sport? Much like Allison, Ernie was THERE. After putting MMM and the 4 car on the map for 3+ years, he rolled into '94 set to make his mark. And for 2/3 of the season, he gave Earnhardt a SERIOUS run for his money. And then it all went away that day at Michigan. And despite the severity of the injury, he still came back and won races in '96 and '97 for Yates, before they axed him in favor of Kenny Irwin. 250. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Editor's notes: Gant tied Davey in wins in '91 Elliott tied Davey in wins in '92 251. Smokefan05 posted: 12.06.2010 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well I am a Johnson fan actually, are there not a lot of those around here? That guy is already an all-time great. Few drivers are better closers at the end of a race, and few have ever been better at racing for points. If I had to make a choice between Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt to win a race on a restart with 2 laps to go, I will pick Johnson every single time. If I had to pick between Johnson and Earnhardt to close out a championship in the final 5 races of the year, again, Johnson hands down. He's going to make Earnhardt's 76 wins look like a joke and possibly rewrite the record book on championships by the time he's done." Earnhardt raced in a different Era than Jimmie, i could say Jimmie is the best of this era not all time. That will always belong to Petty. Petty wouldn't have his numbers if the Silver Fox didn't nit-pick the races he ran he'd have numbers simlar or better than Pettys but to me Pearson has come off as a ego maniac at times (not to offend you old timers but that is the feeling i get from listening to him. But notice in this post i said "at times he can act like a ego maniac.") Too me all you JJ fans care about are numbers and nothing else. What has Jimmie for NASCAR? Has the sport grown under his time as Champ? Are fans liking him more? Answer to those questions is "no." The sport hasn't grown under him (it's gotten worse under his time as champ but he gets some of the blame). Jimmie hasn't done nothing to help NASCAR grow and gain more fans. And more fans my respect him but liking him? Ah, no. I posted something on the SPEED boards but how people view him. If i can find it, i'll post it here. 252. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2010 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^That post hits it right on the nose. 253. Smokefan05 posted: 12.06.2010 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Found it:"Some people will always like Jimmie and will always respect him. However some people will never like him or respect him. For those who like him (and respect him) will view him as the "greatest ever". For those who will never like him (or will never respect him) as a "product of the Chase", a "cheater" and whatever else haters can come up with. Some think the Chase cheapins the Championship and doesn't mean as much as a 36 race Championship would. Some think it's legit as the old system was. (edit: now i have seen people change their minds but there will be those who wouldn't change, no matter what or how much Jimmie does). In short, Jimmie fans can boast on the "greastest ever" stuff but some will not make a paradigm shift. They will remain stubborn and view Petty, Earnhardt or both as greatest ever." 254. Anonymous posted: 12.06.2010 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Earnhardt raced in a different Era than Jimmie, i could say Jimmie is the best of this era not all time" You want to know the difference between the two? Johnson is still racing. How about you wait until his career is actually over before making any definitive statements, otherwise you just look dumb trying to build an argument around that point. 255. I Seize the Day posted: 12.06.2010 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You want to know the difference between the two? Johnson is still racing. How about you wait until his career is actually over before making any definitive statements, otherwise you just look dumb trying to build an argument around that point." So are you saying everyone is dumb for debating where JJ ranks all-time, whether he is the best ever or not? 256. Talon64 posted: 12.06.2010 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 5 championships and 50+ wins already puts him in the conversation among the all time greats. He's only been racing for 9 seasons, but he's done all this in only 9 seasons. I think Jimmie's on pace to be the most SUCCESSFUL driver in NASCAR history; 7 championships and beyond are within reach and his .162 win% (6th best all time) puts him on pace to have 97 wins by the time he reaches 600 starts, but considering he won't be able to maintain that forever 80 wins would be pretty likely. 257. 18fan posted: 12.06.2010 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just going to look at the restrictor plate era(1988-present) and list who I think are the top 5 drivers in each type of track from this era. Short Track: 1. Rusty Wallace 2. Dale Earnhardt 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Geoff Bodine 5. Jimmie Johnson 1-mile: 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Rusty Wallace 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Mark Martin 5. Ricky Rudd Darlington: 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Jeff Burton 4. Dale Jarrett 5. Bill Elliott 1.5-2 mile 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Bill Elliott 3. Dale Jarrett 4. Davey Allison 5. Bobby Labonte Pocono/Indy: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. Dale Jarrett 3. Denny Hamlin 4. Bobby Labonte 5. Bill Elliott Daytona/Talladega 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Ernie Irvan 3. Sterling Marlin 4. Jeff Gordon 5. Davey Allison Road courses 1. Ricky Rudd 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Rusty Wallace 4. Geoff Bodine 5. Tony Stewart Feel free to respond, criticize, whatever you want about these lists. I will explain my views following some responses and feel free to respond to those as well. 258. potatosalad48 posted: 12.06.2010 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) post 251 is a classic case of trolling 259. ii posted: 12.06.2010 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No one will beat 200 wins, no one." Eventually, someone will. Possibly Jimmie Johnson, who already has 50+ wins in just 8 years of racing. But he won't, unless he still has his talent when he comes to around 55 years old. I think if Johnson doesn't, the person who does cannot age fast (by that, I mean deteriorate in performance) and the season schedule will need to increase in races, so much that there will have to be 2 per week. Post 257: Road courses? Rudd beating Gordon? Don't think so. Jeff has just 1 less win in road courses than Rudd does in his career. Rudd was a good road racer, I agree. But I say he is about 3rd. And Geoff Bodine? Only 5 wins IN HIS CAREER. I know it's not just based on wins, but they are important. And I feel you left that category out when criticizing drivers. -Also, add JJ to Pocono/Indy. He's won at Indy 3 TIMES. 260. Smokefan05 posted: 12.06.2010 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "post 251 is a classic case of trolling" Really? How so? Explain it to me? I'd really like to know. Anyway 18fan to your post: "Short Track: 1. Rusty Wallace 2. Dale Earnhardt 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Geoff Bodine 5. Jimmie Johnson" You forgot DW but i'd agree with that list. "1-mile: 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Rusty Wallace 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Mark Martin 5. Ricky Rudd" No complaints here. "Darlington: 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Jeff Burton 4. Dale Jarrett 5. Bill Elliott" No complaints here either. "1.5-2 mile 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Bill Elliott 3. Dale Jarrett 4. Davey Allison 5. Bobby Labonte" You could have added Jeff Gordon but agree none the less. "Pocono/Indy: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. Dale Jarrett 3. Denny Hamlin 4. Bobby Labonte 5. Bill Elliott" I think JJs wins at indy should count for something. "Daytona/Talladega 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Ernie Irvan 3. Sterling Marlin 4. Jeff Gordon 5. Davey Allison" I'd switch Jeff and Ernie around but i agree overall. "Road courses 1. Ricky Rudd 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Rusty Wallace 4. Geoff Bodine 5. Tony Stewart" Jeff is #1 since he has the most road course wins, i'd replace Bodine with Dale Sr since he is 2nd all time with top 5's and top 10's. 261. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2010 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Daytona/Talladega 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Ernie Irvan 3. Sterling Marlin 4. Jeff Gordon 5. Davey Allison" No love for DJ? 3 Bud Shootouts, 3 Daytona 500's, 2 Pepsi 400's, 2 Talladega wins. 262. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2010 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And is it just me, or was Ernie Irvan's season in '94 one of the biggest let-downs in the history of the sport?" I agree. The timing was awful. What gets me is that Ernie was just starting to harness in that incredible talent. Throughout his years in the #4 car, and his half season in the #28 car in '93, he showed remarkable talent and won a lot by just driving the hell out of the car, unfortunately too hard at times. HE crashed unassisted quite a few times, even in the Texaco car at first. But in '94, he learned how to pick his spots. He learned when to ride, and when to go balls to the wall. 1994 was gonna be one hell of a points battle. Dale and Ernie left everyone else in their dust. You had Ernie, who was following a similar career path to Dale's. From the young and wild but extremely talented kid who either or crashed out all the time, to the more cerebral racer, maturing behind the wheel, knowing when to hang back and when to push it. Plus there is the fact that Earnhardt was the one who recognized Ernie's talent and helped him get his foot in the door by sponsoring his first Cup rides (somewhat shades of JJ and Gordon). It was gonna be a hell of a battle. But at the end of the day, we should all be happy Ernie is still alive. I remember after the accident, the way they were talking, I was sure he was gonna die. It was a sick feeling. But not only did he survive, he got to race again and win again. I was at the Wilkesboro race when he came back, and even at age 11, I couldn't help but stare at that #88 Havoline car and think about how I was sure he was gonna die, but here he was less than 2 years later watching him race Winston Cup. 263. Smokefan05 posted: 12.06.2010 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Eventually, someone will. Possibly Jimmie Johnson, who already has 50+ wins in just 8 years of racing. But he won't, unless he still has his talent when he comes to around 55 years old. I think if Johnson doesn't, the person who does cannot age fast (by that, I mean deteriorate in performance) and the season schedule will need to increase in races, so much that there will have to be 2 per week." JJ will most likely be reitred by 55, hell maybe even before 40 if he keeps his pace up. 80+ wins is a good ballpark guess for Jimmie. 264. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now, a word from the trolls: "Really? He had the most speed? That explains why he started the Homestead race from the 19th row, why he didn't start any better than 17th after the Martinsville pole, and why 2010 was his worst season from an average start perspective, right?" Sorry, I forgot qualifying means everything. That is why Ryan Newman is clearly the best driver right now. Seeing as how that 11 car rocketed from those starting spots (he was leading by lap 66 at Phoenix, and he was almost in the Top 15 at Homestead after starting 38th on LAP 24 before he pissed it away), it's safe to say they had more speed. "The reason he didn't seem fast in the first half of the chase is simply because places like Dover, Kansas, California and Charlotte aren't the 11's best tracks. Those are places where the #48 kicks ass, winning 3 of those 4 last year." You forgot to add "last year with the wing". At all 3 Charlotte races this year (counting the All Star race) JJ spun out unassisted. At Kansas, they wallowed around 15th all day before hitting on something and rocketing up to 2nd, and his first Cali race with the spoiler on the COT was nothing like the previous two with the wing. Only at Dover were they able to translate what worked with the wing. Besides, Cali is a low banked 2 miler, kinda like Michigan, where Denny won and finished 2nd this year (with the spoiler) and Charlotte is a high banked 1.5 mile quad oval kinda like Texas, which Denny swept this year (with the spoiler). "A choke is pissing something away when you have it in hand, like Ambrose at Montreal and Sonoma, JPM at Indy, Gordon losing the Phoenix race on a restart to Newman of all people. Having a 15 points" He had a 15 point lead and was flying to the front until he took it 3 wide, on Lap 24, and messed his front end up. If that isn't pissing something away, I don't know what is. "Only a clueless clown like DSFF would call Mike Skinner, one of the greatest drivers in the history of the Truck series, and the best driver to never win a Cup race a "bum"." His numbers in Cup speak for themselves. BTW, he isn't even in the Top 5 of all time drivers. He might be high on wins, but he has raced more in that Series than most. Hornaday, Sprague, Todd, Bliss, and Musgrave were all better. "Then again, he called a proven talent like Dale Jr a bum for not performing to the lofty expectations that he has," Exactly. He is a proven talent, as shown from '00-'04. THAT is where the expectations came from. When you win 15 races in your first 5 seasons, you are expected to win more than 3 races in the next 6 years. Especially when he has been outperformed by teammates (Truex in '07, JJ and Gordon in '08, JJ, Gordon, Mark, Stewart, Newman, and Cole Trickle in '09 and '10). Add it all up and what do you get? A bum. "while at the same worshipping the ground that Brad "It took me 35 starts to score a top ten in my Cup ride" Keselowski walks on, so it is hard to take him seriously." How long are you gonna keep pretending we think Brad has had a great Cup career? How long are you gonna ignore our quips about how bad 2010 was for him and our frustrations that his Cup effort has been placed on the backburner for his NWide team? We just happen to like the guy, and THINK (repeat it with me: THINK) he can do well in Cup in the right situation. "So yeah, I really don't think someone calling themselves "DaleSrFanForever" is going to give an unbiased analysis of Dale Earnhardt's career, and I'm not going to waste my time reading through that mountain of "OMG he's the bestest ever!!!" text." HAHA! Who is the ignorant one now? You won't even read it? Seeing as how I provided statistics, head to head comparisons, and facts about the actual circumstances at the time, it is far from "OMG" crap. If you will actually read it, you will see why I am right. "He is just a classic case of a famous person becoming overrated because they died early." Which explains why he was referred to as a "legend" and having a "legendary career" in the late 90's and 2000 with him still alive and well? Which explains why, when he finally won the Daytona 500 in '98, every crewman from every team came out on pit road to shake his hand, something that has never been done before or since? "I think I'll wait to hear from some who doesn't have a #3 bumper sticker on the back of their pick-up, and probably a big #3 flag displayed prominently in their house." I have none of those. Just two shirts and one hat. "All I got from all of that was one simple redneck trying to convince himself that his hero is still somehow revered like a god by all race fans." First of all, you're damn right I'm a redneck, and I'm proud of it. Secondly, Dale is revered like a God by most race fans. And thirdly, I provided relevant stats, circumstances, and comparisons. I'm waiting for you to prove why he is so overrated. Everybody you mentioned that was supposedly better, I shot right down with a real argument based on facts. All you do is keep saying "He's overrated, he's overrated". You lose. 265. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think the Cal Wells to Rod Osterlund comparison is a little out-of-whack also. Dave Marcis finished fifth in points in the Osterlund car before Earnhardt arrived and clearly they had good stuff. While Osterlund was a second-tier team compared to Petty, Junior Johnson, or the Wood Brothers at the time of Earnhardt's arrival, they didn't suck. A more reasonable comparison for Jimmie Johnson vs. Dale Earnhardt would be winning the title in his second season for a second-tier team like Evernham or Ganassi." That's probably true. Those are some good points. Maybe the Cal Wells thing was a bit extreme. The deal here is it is SO hard to compare eras. Trying to figure out who is better between Pearson, Earnhardt, and JJ is something that could never be truly resolved. One common ground for the three: They each took what would probably be their only big shot at the big times (Pearson driving Ray Fox's car in the World 600 and winning it, Earnhardt driving for Osterlund and winning the Winston Cup in his second year, and JJ getting the same equipment as Gordon) and ran with it, never looking back. 266. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2010 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmmmmm. Best from 88 to present: Plate tracks: 1) Earnhardt 2) Gordon 3) Stewart 4) DJ 5) Sterling 278) JJ Road Courses: 1) Gordon 2) Stewart 3) Rusty 4) Rudd 5) Mark Short Tracks 1) Rusty 2) Earnhardt (would be #1 if we could include 85-87) 3) Gordon 4) JJ 5) Denny Flat 1 milers: 1) Burton 2) Gordon 3) JJ 4) Mark 5) Kurt Busch High Banked 1 - 1.3 milers: 1) Earnhardt 2) Gordon 3) Mark 4) JJ 5) DJ High Banked 1.5 milers: 1) JJ 2) Gordon 3) B Labonte 4) Edwards 5) Earnhardt Low Banked 1.5 - 2 milers: 1) Mark 2) Kenseth 3) Gordon 4) Rusty 5) Biffle Pocono/Indy: 1) Gordon 2) JJ 3) Bill 4) DJ 5) Rusty 267. Bronco posted: 12.07.2010 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "His numbers in Cup speak for themselves. BTW, he isn't even in the Top 5 of all time drivers. He might be high on wins, but he has raced more in that Series than most. Hornaday, Sprague, Todd, Bliss, and Musgrave were all better." You're right, Skinner's numbers in Cup do speak for themselves. He won at Suzuka in '97, then at Motegi in '98 with Larry Mac, then the following year he won the Bud Shootout qualifier, one of the No Bull All Star races, and a Daytona qualifier in 2001. Not only that, but he won a few poles, and made the chase (if there had been one back then) in '99 and '00 when he had Larry Mac. And I'd be totally remiss if I didn't mention how Dale's last two wins should probably have gone to Skinner, with him leading nearly 200 laps at Atlanta before the engine quit, and Dale Jr trying to pass him on the apron rather than push him on at Talladega. Clearly the man had Cup level talent and deserved to win at the very least one Cup race, but bad luck kept getting in the way (same thing cost him the '07 Truck title). Of course, I don't expect you to agree with me since you probably have it in your head that Skinner somehow ruined the last four years of Dale's career. Hornaday and Sprague are probably better than Skinner since they have all the championships, Bodine is probably an equal, but you've got to be joking to say Bliss and Musgrave are better. As for the top 5 list of restrictor plate drivers, I would put Dale Jr on that list at about third, since I for one cannot ignore 7 wins, winning 4 in a row at Talladega (which will probably never be done again), 2 Bud Shootouts, 3 Daytona qualifier wins, and over 1000 laps led at both tracks in a relatively short career. 268. TimmyH posted: 12.07.2010 - 2:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First of all, you're damn right I'm a redneck, and I'm proud of it." That's just sad. "Secondly, Dale is revered like a God by most race fans." If by "most race fans" you mean the media and rednecks, then yes. "I'm waiting for you to prove why he is so overrated. Everybody you mentioned that was supposedly better, I shot right down with a real argument based on facts. All you do is keep saying "He's overrated, he's overrated". You lose." There's no need for me to waste my time typing a masters thesis on why Dale Earnhardt is overrated. You already proved it by wasting your own time writing one. Do you know the definition of "overrated"? And stats don't mean everything. You think Jeff Gordon is better than Dale? He has more wins. When they were racing against each other, Gordon has better stats in every category. But all you did was make excuses for why that happened. Just like you talk about different "eras" and how you can't necessarily compare them, unless it helps your argument (like Dale's 7 titles to Gordon's 4). You just cherry pick the stats that you think help your case and ignore the others. So All I see in your block of text is a bunch of pointless, flimsy, contradicting arguments, and other easy-to-ignore babble. Better luck next time. And seriously, how much time do you spend writing and researching all that bullshit? Well, I guess when you're unemployed it's easier. I'm just surprised your trailer park has internet access I guess. 269. ii posted: 12.07.2010 - 6:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JJ will most likely be reitred by 55, hell maybe even before 40 if he keeps his pace up. 80+ wins is a good ballpark guess for Jimmie." That's a pretty small estamation. He's just in his 9th full year come 2011. I say that if you triple the amount of wins he has now (give or take a few) it's more reasonable. 270. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2010 - 9:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You're right, Skinner's numbers in Cup do speak for themselves. He won at Suzuka in '97, then at Motegi in '98 with Larry Mac, then the following year he won the Bud Shootout qualifier, one of the No Bull All Star races, and a Daytona qualifier in 2001. Not only that, but he won a few poles" So basically he had a Michael Waltrip like career, minus the plate wins. Of course Mikey raced longer, and had Skinner stuck around long enough, maybe he would have ended up on a team with great plate cars and won a few. But the fact is, when you are being compared to Michael Waltrip on track, you are a bum. Honestly, the highlight of his Cup career was that atlanta race in 2000 when he led a ton of laps until Dale was passing him, Skinner threw a huge block knocking Dale's right front quarter panel in causing him to fall back. During a subsequent caution, Dale pulled alongside Skinner, pointed at him, was probably cursing the whole time, then fell to the end of the lead lap while his team took the time to properly re-align his fender (I wonder where Mike Ford was during this?). Even with that, Dale was running him back down when Skinner blew up, and Dale eventually won. It was probably gonna be a showdown between Mike and Dale. Anyone who had their money on Mike, I'd like to invite to my house to play poker. Free money is free money. "Of course, I don't expect you to agree with me since you probably have it in your head that Skinner somehow ruined the last four years of Dale's career." It wasn't Skinner, it was RCR adding a second team, but not pooling their resources like the other multi-car teams were doing, and Dale's stubbornness in getting his injuries from the '96 Dega crash fixed. I actually blame Dale more than Mike. It wasn't Mike's fault. Although if he truly were a good Cup driver, he could have provided information on setups that might have helped Dale. But again, it's not Mike's fault Richard stupidly hired him. "Bodine is probably an equal, but you've got to be joking to say Bliss and Musgrave are better." Bodine has more championships, and Bliss and Musgrave have more titles in less starts. "As for the top 5 list of restrictor plate drivers, I would put Dale Jr on that list at about third, since I for one cannot ignore 7 wins, winning 4 in a row at Talladega (which will probably never be done again), 2 Bud Shootouts, 3 Daytona qualifier wins, and over 1000 laps led at both tracks in a relatively short career." Those are fair points. But his success came over a short period of time ('01-'04) when DEI was producing plate cars that even Michael Waltrip was winning in. From 2005 to present, it has been ugly. Sterling's wins were also concentrated in the MMM cars, but he also did really well in Ganassi's cars, probably would have won the '01 Daytona 500 if Dale didn't block him (and ultimately kill himself), and the '02 Daytona 500 if Gordon didn't throw a ridiculous block. It's a tough call, but I chose Sterling. 271. I Seize the Day posted: 12.07.2010 - 9:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And seriously, how much time do you spend writing and researching all that bullshit? Well, I guess when you're unemployed it's easier. I'm just surprised your trailer park has internet access I guess." Yo brah, I have a personal beef with that. Some of us in here love researching and coming up with statistical arguments. Hell, I figured everyone in here enjoyed doing just that. And I think having an office job makes me spend more time on this site than if I were umemployed. 272. b4il3y (johnson is an buttwipes) posted: 12.07.2010 - 9:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ha...none of you..and i mean none of you...all of you haters...everyone of you..does not know how it was...i grew up around it, my dad a tire changer on ed whitaker's busch team...ive been reading and commenting for a long time..and i can safely say...none of you know whats up... just thought i'd tell ya...if you hate it...deal with it. if you like it..thank you. 273. Gordo posted: 12.07.2010 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i see my previous post was ignored... was it not a valid argument for anything? so has anyone mentioned why exactly johnson and the 48 team were not fined for intention of cheating and failing pre race inspection at the phoenix race? 4 years ago johnson and gordon both were fined at the infineon race because of failing pre race inspection, yet when it comes to a championship johnson slides without a penalty? 274. Smiff_99 posted: 12.07.2010 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, it was a valid argument. To everybody else, it's just 'sour grapes' because Johnson won the title again. I'm not gonna sit here and say that Johnson won his titles because of cheating.....cause he didn't. How many times did we hear from NASCAR that 'it doesn't matter how small....blah blah blah.......if it's illegal, you'll be punished' after the Bowyer fiasco? And then two weeks later, Johnson's team gets away with something. The 48 team ALWAYS gets the benefit of doubt.....even though they're the ONE team that shouldn't (due to their 'history'). And when the COT was introduced, they talked about how they were gonna be stricter than before. Yeah, but not with everyone, apparently. NASCAR may not have 'given' the 48 team anything, but they sure as hell won't do anything to hurt their chances. 275. Smokefan05 posted: 12.07.2010 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's a pretty small estamation. He's just in his 9th full year come 2011. I say that if you triple the amount of wins he has now (give or take a few) it's more reasonable." I said 80+ wins becuase he can't keep it up forever. I posted a thread on the SPEED boards about how it would take him to pass Dale, i guessed 2 1/2 years it would take him to pass Dale on the carrer wins list (guess how long it would take him to catch Dale once he hit 50 wins). I think i'm pretty close to looking like a smart a$$ for that one. lol However i've noticed something about his average finish over his 5 year run (this maybe pointless but something i noticed) 2006: 9.7 (his best for this stat) 2007: 10.8 (arguably his best year ever for wins, top 5s and top 10s) 2008: 10.5 2009: 11.1 2010: 12.2 Notice anything? his average finish has generally been going up. His competition has been closing in on him. I maybe reading to much into it but it's something to think about. 276. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.07.2010 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is an interesting observation Smokefan05. As the competition has closed on Jimmie, his average finish has increased. This could be explained due to the amount of 'testing' during the fist 26 races since that first championship in 2006. The 48 team has committed more errors each year since 2006 during the 26 race "test" session in preparation for the Chase. The first Chase season in 2004 has been discussed and debated on these boards often. Here is a statistic I found quite intriguing: In 2004, Jimmie's average finish mirrored the 2010 season. The 48 team had three consecutive engine failures at Indy, Watkins Glen and Michigan in August after Jimmie built up a points lead. 277. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2010 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2006: 9.7 (his best for this stat) 2007: 10.8 (arguably his best year ever for wins, top 5s and top 10s) 2008: 10.5 2009: 11.1 2010: 12.2" Led in 2006, 2nd in 2007, 2nd in 2008, 3rd in 2009, 3rd in 2010. His ranking in avg. fin. has decreased but like what's been said, that's because they spend the first 26 races testing and only do well enough to make the Chase (and still win their share of races along the way). But Jimmie showed up in the Chase, like always. 6.2 average finish for the whole Chase but a 4.1 avg fin in the 9 races after his 25th place finish at Loudon. He led the Chase in top fives with 7 and tied Harvick in top tens with 9 (which ties Kurt Busch for most top 10's ever in a Chase, nobody's done the complete sweep yet). The surprising thing is that Denny was 3rd among the top 3 in top 5's, top 10's and average finish: Johnson: 1 win, 7 top fives, 9 top tens, 6.2 af Hamlin: 2 wins, 4 top fives, 7 top tens, 7.2 af Harvick: 0 wins, 5 top fives, 9 top tens, 5.8 af Jimmie also had the edge in bonus points, 35 to 30. Denny didn't lead a single lap in the first 5 races which really hurt him, he could've had 50+ if they'd stepped it up at the start of the Chase instead of waiting. The 10 point edge and 2 wins in the Chase seemed to make the difference to keep Denny in it. Plus Denny's off finishes in the first 9 races were only 12th place finishes. But really, the #11 team's lack of fuel mileage at Phoenix cost them the championship. Logano had the mileage to make it because his engine was tuned differently, but it still leaves JGR with a weakness in that department if they can't have a good balance between power and mileage. /going off on a tandem 278. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2010 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bliss and Musgrave have more titles in less starts." I meant to say same number of titles. Brain freeze on my part. 279. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2010 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points smokefan. Glad to see I'm not the only stats nut on here:) . But like has been said, I think they have gone more and more to testing during the "regular season". Hell, this year they had an R&D setup in the car in the Spring Martinsville event, the 6th race of the year. 280. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2010 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's just sad." Yes, it is very sad that somebody like you feels the need to put down other people's way of life to make yourself feel better. It is sad that somebody like you is jealous of people that are comfortable with who they are, what their heritage is, and don't have to pretend to be something they aren't. "There's no need for me to waste my time typing a masters thesis on why Dale Earnhardt is overrated." Lol. That is because you have no point and no response. "And stats don't mean everything. You think Jeff Gordon is better than Dale? He has more wins. When they were racing against each other, Gordon has better stats in every category. But all you did was make excuses for why that happened." I made a valid argument as to why that is the case talking about the circumstances surrounding both drivers at the time. Jeff's best years (which were the 2nd most phenomenal 5 year stretch in NASCAR's modern era) came during one of Dale's worst stretches. Compare their careers as a whole, and it is clear Dale is way better. Hell, compare Elliott Sadler and Rusty Wallace from 2001 to 2003. Is Elliott better than Rusty? " Just like you talk about different "eras" and how you can't necessarily compare them, unless it helps your argument (like Dale's 7 titles to Gordon's 4). You just cherry pick the stats that you think help your case and ignore the others." No, I compared Dale to certain drivers head to hear when their career primes coincided, like Rusty and Bill. I even slanted them a bit to go against Dale to make my point. And besides, it's not like another driver has come along at RCR afterwards and won 5 straight titles. Let's say RCR started their second team in 1995, did it properly ensuring that Dale and the new driver were driving the exact same equipment built by the same people. Let's say RCR gets Jeff Burton instead of Roush, and let's say Burton wins championships in '96, '97, '98, '99, and '00. That is basically what has happened to Gordon. RCR was way behind (yet Dale still gave them respectability) and HMS was light years ahead when they went head to head. "So All I see in your block of text is a bunch of pointless, flimsy, contradicting arguments, and other easy-to-ignore babble. Better luck next time." Of course that's all you see. You obviously don't grasp the concept of constructing an actual argument. You simply don't get it. You have been pwned by this backwoods North Carolina redneck. Yee-Haw! "And seriously, how much time do you spend writing and researching all that bullshit? Well, I guess when you're unemployed it's easier. I'm just surprised your trailer park has internet access I guess." Dude, all the information IS RIGHT HERE ON THIS VERY WEBSITE! This isn't rocket science. It is two or 3 clicks away. Click on the "Drivers" tab up top, click on the letter of the driver's last name, click on the driver, and everything you need to know is right there. "Do you know the definition of "overrated"?" According to dictionary.com, the definition of "overrate" is: "to rate or appraise too highly; overestimate". None of this applies to Dale. He considered by most to be the best NASCAR driver ever, and a legimate argument can be made to prove this. 281. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2010 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BTW, he isn't even in the Top 5 of all time drivers. He might be high on wins, but he has raced more in that Series than most. Hornaday, Sprague, Todd, Bliss, and Musgrave were all better." Actually, Skinner owns the 3rd best winning percentage in Truck Series history for drivers with at least 100 starts (28 wins in 229 starts, 12.2%). Hornaday and Bodine (17.1% and 12.7%) are the top 2. But 16 of those wins were in the first 2 seasons of the Truck Series, 44 races. Skinner has 12 wins in his next 185 starts (6.4%). If you want to talk about a driver who's raced more in the series than most, Jack Sprague's equal on wins with Sprague but made 297 starts (9.4%, 6th best). But he has the 3 championships. Mike Bliss has 203 career Truck Series starts but only (relatively speaking) 13 wins, a 6.4% winning % that ranks him 11th. Don't forget that Greg Biffle was great in the Trucks, 16 wins in 81 seasons and won the championship in 2000. Or Johnny Benson, 14 wins and the 2006 championship in 138 starts. They did a lot in a short amount of time in the series. My Truck Series top 10 of all time: 1. Hornaday 2. Sprague 3. Bodine 4. Skinner 5. Musgrave 6. Biffle 7. Benson 8. Bliss 9. Dennis Setzer 10. Bobby Hamilton 282. Smokefan05 posted: 12.07.2010 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I get what your saying Talon. But i really wounder how much higher his season along average finish will be with the "R&D stuff" they are doing. I mean will he win a Cup with a 15th average finish? Yeah he shows up in the Chase but that has to say something but his average finish generally getting higher. I mean this is the first season since 2005 that Jimmie has had a 12th place average finish. And he didn't win it that year or in 04. This year the 48 crew were on the ropes heading into the final 2 races. But the 11 bunch couldn't seal the deal. Even Jimmie admitted to having some "not so good days at the shop." I'm i saying that his run has ended? No, i'm saying that people are catching them even this year his "R&D time" really hasn't helped them like in years past. 283. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2010 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think if the 48's average finish this season says anything, it's that they were prone to a lot more mistakes. They had 17 top fives, their most in the last 3 seasons, but had 8 finishes of 25th or worse which was their worst since 2005. But looking at more of JJ's numbers in the Chase this year, there's better signs of the downward trend. He only led 232 laps in the Chase this year with 191 of them coming at Dover. Here's his laps led in the previous 6 Chases: 2009: 985 2008: 961 2007: 323 (surprising since it was his best Chase, 5.0 avg fin and 4 straight wins) 2006: 486 2005: 153 (134 in a win at Dover) 2004: 281 So this year was his worst Chase in terms of laps led since 2005, the last year he didn't win the championship and also the last time he went into the Homestead finale 2nd in the standings. Between that and the average finish trend, a good sign that JJ's domination is ending. BTW, that year JJ had a terrible car, ended up wrecking, and the heat between JJ and Chad after that race led to the infamous milk-and-cookies meeting with Rick. This season he's 2nd in the point again but the previous 4 seasons of championship experience against someone there for the 1st time really showed. And it's that experience that gives the #48 team a Tiger Woods-level (pre-affairs) of psychological advantage over his competition. Man, I still remember when people called Jimmie Johnson the Peyton Manning of NASCAR for his chokes. LOL 284. 18fan posted: 12.07.2010 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think the 48 had the R&D setup at Martinsville in the spring because Gibbs and, to a lesser extent, Childress have caught up to the once unbeatable Hendrick cars at Martinsville. So Chad wanted to try something for the chase, which didn't help a lot because he had his worst chase run at Martinsville, which was still a fifth. This year saw Jimmie post his two worst Martinsville finishes since 2005 and the first time since 2005 that he did not lead a single lap. 285. Ryan posted: 12.08.2010 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If I had to make a choice between Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt to win a race on a restart with 2 laps to go, I will pick Johnson every single time. If I had to pick between Johnson and Earnhardt to close out a championship in the final 5 races of the year, again, Johnson hands down. He's going to make Earnhardt's 76 wins look like a joke and possibly rewrite the record book on championships by the time he's done." hahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah TimmyH when are you going to graduate? Because DSFF has been taking you to school on here an awful lot! Whoever said Jimmie Johnson will get to 200 wins. Can I get some of that stuff you are smoking? TimmyH is more than likely some punk teenager who has no idea about racing. He probably is a son of a Bill Elliott or Rusty Wallace fan that still holds a grudge about Earnhardt kicking ass. Lets not forget, Dale Earnhardt is the only driver ever to win a race in four different decades. He is also the only driver to win ROY honors and the title in back to back seasons. He also raced may different types of cars and adapted to all of them and was very successful in all of them unlike most others. No way Jimmie Johnson or Jeff Gordon are successful if it's not for power steering. 286. Anonymous posted: 12.08.2010 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No way Jimmie Johnson or Jeff Gordon are successful if it's not for power steering." Prove it. Oh wait, you can't. Look, I can do it too. Dale Earnhardt never would have won a race if he raced against Jimmie Johnson. 287. Spen posted: 12.08.2010 - 1:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Earnhardt is the only driver ever to win a race in four different decades" Not really. 2000 was the last year of the '90's, not the first year of the 2000's. Therefore, Richard Petty won in four different decades, as 1960 was the last year of the 50's. (And he may have been the winner at Lakewood Speedway in 1959.) 288. ii posted: 12.08.2010 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Notice anything? his average finish has generally been going up. His competition has been closing in on him. I maybe reading to much into it but it's something to think about." Not really, with the exception of this year. Last year, he virtually locked it up just by starting, and the same for '08. In '07 all he had to do is mess up (which the 48 team basically never does.) But I think this year his results swapped with the regular season. He won 3 of the first 5 races (of course the inconsistency in the regular season as well), but only 1 Chase race. In previous years he dominated in the Cha$e. But, coming 2011 with Brian France seeing what he wanted, and now he wants another change, I see a new champion, and more new champs soon to come (Hamlin and Edwards and possibly Harvick will be huge contenders. If there's a Cha$e next year, you might see Ragan in it). 289. Bronco posted: 12.08.2010 - 10:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So basically he had a Michael Waltrip like career, minus the plate wins. Of course Mikey raced longer, and had Skinner stuck around long enough, maybe he would have ended up on a team with great plate cars and won a few. But the fact is, when you are being compared to Michael Waltrip on track, you are a bum." Only someone like you would compare Skinner to Waltrip. Skinner finished top 10 in points in 1999, and nearly won Watkins Glen in 1998 (a driver's track, right?) when did Waltrip ever do any of that? "But again, it's not Mike's fault Richard stupidly hired him." The guy had won a Truck championship, finishing third the next year while racking up 16 total wins, how the hell was it stupid to promote the guy to Winston Cup? Unbelievable. "Bodine has more championships, and Bliss and Musgrave have more titles in less starts" So because Musgrave and Bliss have had shorter careers than Skinner with the same number championships that automatically makes them better? Never mind the fact that Skinner has more wins, a better winning percentage, and he won the title in his very first season of Trucks. By that standard, I suppose Kenseth, Harvick and Kulwicki are better than Elliott, Wallace and Allison because they each have the same number of titles in far fewer starts, right? "Those are fair points. But his success came over a short period of time ('01-'04) when DEI was producing plate cars that even Michael Waltrip was winning in. From 2005 to present, it has been ugly. Sterling's wins were also concentrated in the MMM cars, but he also did really well in Ganassi's cars, probably would have won the '01 Daytona 500 if Dale didn't block him (and ultimately kill himself), and the '02 Daytona 500 if Gordon didn't throw a ridiculous block." Ok, but you're forgetting that even after 2004, Dale Jr still kicked butt at the plate tracks, nearly capturing a second Daytona 500 in 2005, leading the most laps in the Daytona 500 the next year and coming withing a lap of winning Talladega in 2006 before getting turned, leading a bunch of laps in the first CoT race in 2007 before the engine expired. Then he went and won the first two races with the new car at Daytona in 2008, and even the last two years when he has struggled almost everywhere else, his few bright moments still came at Talladega and nearly winning the 500 this year. Three of his last five top 5s have come at plate tracks, along with the last two times he led the most laps in a Cup race. Not only that, but he consistently runs better at plate tracks than his teammates, (never hiding around in the back) so I'd definitely give him the edge. 290. Smokefan05 posted: 12.08.2010 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Only someone like you would compare Skinner to Waltrip. Skinner finished top 10 in points in 1999, and nearly won Watkins Glen in 1998 (a driver's track, right?) when did Waltrip ever do any of that?" Mikey almost won Darlington in 1991 had he not had that pit stop that went wrong. "Not really, with the exception of this year. Last year, he virtually locked it up just by starting, and the same for '08. In '07 all he had to do is mess up (which the 48 team basically never does.)" I get what your saying but still everyone else is catching #48 and they know it. Sooner or later someone will beat them even if Brian France doesn't change the Chase. Talon makes a good point that his run as champ is coming to an end. I mean he is human, sooner or later keeping focused it going to wear you out. He is signed until 2013, and Chad is signed until 2015. he may get one more Cup before his contract is up. (but i could be wrong of course) And you can only get so much better before you hit a ceiling of performence and you can't break through it. 291. ii posted: 12.08.2010 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan05, I completely agree. This year the margin was slimmer than ever, but still Johnson was still behind coming into this race. 292. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.08.2010 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Only someone like you would compare Skinner to Waltrip. Skinner finished top 10 in points in 1999, and nearly won Watkins Glen in 1998 (a driver's track, right?) when did Waltrip ever do any of that?" Darlington 1991. Although Mikey never finished in the Top 10 in points because he sucked. "The guy had won a Truck championship, finishing third the next year while racking up 16 total wins, how the hell was it stupid to promote the guy to Winston Cup? Unbelievable." First of all, the Truck Series was still in its infancy. How could Richard have projected anything from that Series onto Winston Cup? Hell, at the time they didn't even make pit stops in the Truck Series, they had the "halftime break". Plus this was when the Trucks were running mostly on short tracks and road courses. He should have grabbed an up and coming Busch driver or somebody who had been showing flashes of brilliance in small budget Winston cup cars (Benson?). Skinner added NOTHING to that organization. "So because Musgrave and Bliss have had shorter careers than Skinner with the same number championships that automatically makes them better? Never mind the fact that Skinner has more wins, a better winning percentage, and he won the title in his very first season of Trucks. By that standard, I suppose Kenseth, Harvick and Kulwicki are better than Elliott, Wallace and Allison because they each have the same number of titles in far fewer starts, right?" Again, it is a matter of situation. Besides, Musgrave won his title going head to head with Skinner, and the team shut down like 23 minutes after Musgrave won it. Skinner won his in the same Trucks that Jay Sauter won 4 races with in the next 3 seasons. Jay Sauter sucks. And BTW, Kulwicki is better than Rusty, Bill, and Davey. What he did, running his own team with a limited budget, still beating the big dogs, shows what he is capable of. Compare his career to Bill's as an owner/driver. Alan's career was like a college team playing pro football and winning the Super Bowl. In '92, he beat Davey and Bill head to head despite those two being on the high budget teams with way more support from Ford (hence Alan's famous "Underbird"). As far as Kenseth and Harvick vs Bill, Rusty, and Davey: The latter three all had the misfotune of having their primes coincide with Dale's. During Dale's incredible run of 6 Winston Cups in 9 years, Rusty and Bill were the only other drivers to win titles in that span along with Kulwicki. Take Dale out of the equation, Rusty and Bill each have an additional title. I like Matt, but considering how he has fared against JJ during his run of dominance, I'm gonna assume he wouldn't have won a title going against Dale in his prime. And Harvick, shit, I don't even know where to start with him. Rusty won 18 races in '93 and '94 alone while Harvick has just 14 for his 10 year career total. Rusty won 16 times at Bristol and Martinsville combined, more than Harvick's career. Davey won 19 races in 6 and 1/2 seasons to Kevin's 14 in 10 seasons. Davey never had a winless season, Kevin has already had 3. Davey never won less than 2 races in his 6 full seasons. Kevin has won 2 or more races only 3 times in 10 seasons. Harvick has 3 plate wins, Davey had 4 (not counting his unrestricted '87 Dega win). Harvick has two short track wins, Davey had 4. Harvick has 3 wins on 1 mile tracks, Davey had 4. On flat 2 - 2.5 tracks (including Indy and Cali which Davey never got to race at) Harvick has won twice, Davey won 3 of those. They each have 1 road course win. The only stat Kevin is better at is three 1.5 mile track wins to Davey's 2. But considering Davey only got to race at Chalotte and Atlanta while Harvick has got to race at Chicago (2 of his wins), Kansas, Homestead, and Texas. Another funny stat about Harvick. Bill Elliott supposedly was a bad short track driver, it was his weak link, while Harvick is supposedly a short track ace. Yet they each have 2 short track wins, one at Bristol and 1 at Richmond. Hmmm. 293. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.08.2010 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Only someone like you would compare Skinner to Waltrip. Skinner finished top 10 in points in 1999, and nearly won Watkins Glen in 1998 (a driver's track, right?) when did Waltrip ever do any of that?" Darlington 1991. Although Mikey never finished in the Top 10 in points because he sucked. "The guy had won a Truck championship, finishing third the next year while racking up 16 total wins, how the hell was it stupid to promote the guy to Winston Cup? Unbelievable." First of all, the Truck Series was still in its infancy. How could Richard have projected anything from that Series onto Winston Cup? Hell, at the time they didn't even make pit stops in the Truck Series, they had the "halftime break". Plus this was when the Trucks were running mostly on short tracks and road courses. He should have grabbed an up and coming Busch driver or somebody who had been showing flashes of brilliance in small budget Winston cup cars (Benson?). Skinner added NOTHING to that organization. "So because Musgrave and Bliss have had shorter careers than Skinner with the same number championships that automatically makes them better? Never mind the fact that Skinner has more wins, a better winning percentage, and he won the title in his very first season of Trucks. By that standard, I suppose Kenseth, Harvick and Kulwicki are better than Elliott, Wallace and Allison because they each have the same number of titles in far fewer starts, right?" Again, it is a matter of situation. Besides, Musgrave won his title going head to head with Skinner, and the team shut down like 23 minutes after Musgrave won it. Skinner won his in the same Trucks that Jay Sauter won 4 races with in the next 3 seasons. Jay Sauter sucks. And BTW, Kulwicki is better than Rusty, Bill, and Davey. What he did, running his own team with a limited budget, still beating the big dogs, shows what he is capable of. Compare his career to Bill's as an owner/driver. Alan's career was like a college team playing pro football and winning the Super Bowl. In '92, he beat Davey and Bill head to head despite those two being on the high budget teams with way more support from Ford (hence Alan's famous "Underbird"). As far as Kenseth and Harvick vs Bill, Rusty, and Davey: The latter three all had the misfotune of having their primes coincide with Dale's. During Dale's incredible run of 6 Winston Cups in 9 years, Rusty and Bill were the only other drivers to win titles in that span along with Kulwicki. Take Dale out of the equation, Rusty and Bill each have an additional title. I like Matt, but considering how he has fared against JJ during his run of dominance, I'm gonna assume he wouldn't have won a title going against Dale in his prime. And Harvick, shit, I don't even know where to start with him. Rusty won 18 races in '93 and '94 alone while Harvick has just 14 for his 10 year career total. Rusty won 16 times at Bristol and Martinsville combined, more than Harvick's career. Davey won 19 races in 6 and 1/2 seasons to Kevin's 14 in 10 seasons. Davey never had a winless season, Kevin has already had 3. Davey never won less than 2 races in his 6 full seasons. Kevin has won 2 or more races only 3 times in 10 seasons. Harvick has 3 plate wins, Davey had 4 (not counting his unrestricted '87 Dega win). Harvick has two short track wins, Davey had 4. Harvick has 3 wins on 1 mile tracks, Davey had 4. On flat 2 - 2.5 tracks (including Indy and Cali which Davey never got to race at) Harvick has won twice, Davey won 3 of those. They each have 1 road course win. The only stat Kevin is better at is three 1.5 mile track wins to Davey's 2. But considering Davey only got to race at Chalotte and Atlanta while Harvick has got to race at Chicago (2 of his wins), Kansas, Homestead, and Texas. Another funny stat about Harvick. Bill Elliott supposedly was a bad short track driver, it was his weak link, while Harvick is supposedly a short track ace. Yet they each have 2 short track wins, one at Bristol and 1 at Richmond. Hmmm. 294. potatosalad48 posted: 12.09.2010 - 12:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) post 260: you are trolling because you are saying that jimmie's fans only like him for his stats. i happen to be a huge 48 fan and could care less if he had no wins much less 50. so stop worrying about jimmie and worry about your driver, who ever it is. 295. Smiff_99 posted: 12.09.2010 - 11:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Every fan has a #1 favorite......and though their are many reasons we pick our fave, usually our fanship can be traced back to one, singular moment where we went from being indifferent about that driver, to being a 'fan'. For example--I became a Tony Stewart fan after Martinsville in the fall of '99, when he had his beef with Kenny Irwin. Right or wrong, when Tony reached into his window and tried to throw a punch, I KNEW right then and there that this guy had fire in his belly.....and that I was a fan. Another example--When Jarrett passed Earnhardt comin' to the white flag in the '93 500......I was a fan for life. But it wasn't because I hated SR, it was because he beat one of the best. Although Jarret had won before at Michigan in '91, THAT win in the 500 was the pivot point in DJ's career.....and from there, things only got better. P.S.-Ned Jarrett's call of that last lap in '93 STILL gives me chills/goosebumps every time I watch it........SUCH a great moment in history. Anybody else got their own "I became a fan when..." stories? 296. I Seize the Day posted: 12.09.2010 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good topic Smiff - I became a Stewart fan watching him win Homestead in 99. Then I found out he was Labonte's teammate. It was on from that point on. I became a Labonte fan earlier that year watching him sweep Pocono. I remember saying, "damn, that green car is badass!" 297. Smokefan05 posted: 12.09.2010 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Became a Tony Stewert fan in 05 Became a JaimeMc fan when he won Daytona in 07 Became a The Biff fan in 05 Became a ESade when when he was actually doing good in 04 Became a RG fan after he got hosed in Montreal in 07 Became a JG fan, well he earned my respect. So i'm a fan sue me. :P Was a Mikey Watrip fan but in 05 i said "**** it." Became a Big E fan after the 1993 Daytona 500. (i remember hating DJ for that. But hey i was like 5 years old. Sue me. :P) 298. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.09.2010 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a little kid my Dad was an Earnhardt fan, so I became one. I don't know exactly when this happened. I was born in '84, and my memories of watching NASCAR don't really kick in until '89. I always liked watching sports with Dad (still do to this day) and I always pulled for the people or teams he pulled for. As Dad explained to me once, he always liked the people that gave 100% effort 100% of the time. He pulled for Jimmy Connors in tennis for the same reason he pulled for Dale. Whether it was the first round of a tournament against some shmuck or the finals of Wimbledon against McEnroe or that weird guy with the weird name, he was diving all over the place. Of course we also pulled for the Atlanta Braves in the late 80s cause they were the South's baseball team, and they really sucked. Then they won something like 46 division titles in a row only to have excruciating playoff exits (except '95). But as I got older, I really began to appreciate Dale on my own. I guess the '93 season ender at Atlanta is when I first realized for myself how much of a racer he was. As for Brad K, it happened in stages. He was somebody I was keeping an eye on in '07 when he finally got a shot in good equipment at the Memphis Truck race, won the pole, and got spun out of the lead with a few laps left. The way he handled himself after the race was great. Watching him fight and claw his way for recognition and success in the #88 NWide car really caught my attention. What really caught my attention was the way he pissed off the drivers I can't stand (Denny, Kryle, Steroid Carl). I loved Charlotte '08 and Denny's rant about "these NWide guys race too hard". ARE YOU @#$%&* KIDDING ME? These coddled Divas hated the way he wouldn't roll over for them. I loved it. Phoenix '09 clinched it for me. Denny bumped him, then in the next set of corners Brad hit him back TWICE, spinning him out. That was his way of saying "I WILL NOT roll over for you assholes". Unfortunately he went to Penske and the #12 Cup car instead of HMS and the #5 car cause Mark wouldn't retire, so he hasn't been able to beat them on the big stage yet. I hope like hell it happens eventually. 299. ii posted: 12.09.2010 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "so stop worrying about jimmie and worry about your driver, who ever it is." Hmm...with a name like Smokefan05, I think it's David Ragan. Became a Gordon fan when I started watching Now I root for underdogs but still silently go for Gordon I am a pretty big Vickers fan, too, and I cant wait until 2011 and when he gets back in a race car after blood clots. In 07 I was a Kyle Busch fan because I was rooting for Hendrick but when he moved to Gibbs in 08 with Toyota I thought he was like a kid trying out a smoke. Turns out not... 300. Bronco posted: 12.09.2010 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I loved Charlotte '08 and Denny's rant about "these NWide guys race too hard". ARE YOU @#$%&* KIDDING ME? These coddled Divas hated the way he wouldn't roll over for them. I loved it." I personally loved his rant after Dover 2009. "He'll get a ride and hang around for a couple of years and people will realize that he's not really that good." One full Cup season and two 10th place finishes later, its safe to say Hamlin was right. "Unfortunately he went to Penske and the #12 Cup car instead of HMS and the #5 car cause Mark wouldn't retire, so he hasn't been able to beat them on the big stage yet. I hope like hell it happens eventually." Yeah, like hell it's going to happen, with Dale Jr getting his extension, and Kahne taking over the #5 in 2012. 301. Talon64 posted: 12.09.2010 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I am a pretty big Vickers fan, too, and I cant wait until 2011 and when he gets back in a race car after blood clots." Have you heard that Vickers might have a Rolex 24 ride lined up? He was asking people on Twitter whether he should give it a shot. It'd be his first time running the race. I saw this picture a while ago but just found it again. It's Johnson, Hamlin and Harvick with the Sprint Cup trophy in the lead up to the Homestead race. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7FZvobkLN6M/TObtmtYjiuI/AAAAAAAAA0U/KG68oLEsWWU/s1600/2010+Homestead-Miami+NSCS+Contenders+Johnson+Trophy+Hamlin+Harvick.jpg Hamlin and Harvick have their hands behind their backs, keeping their distance from the trophy. But Jimmie has his arm on the pedestal, looking confident and comfortable. If you'd had seen this before the Homestead race, who would you have though was going to hoist it that Sunday? There's the psychological edge for you. 302. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.09.2010 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent topic Smiff. I was too young to remember the 93' Daytona 500. For my instant fan moment: The finish to the October '98 race at Talladega. Jarrett held off what seemed the entire field the last 10 laps or so and beat the man at the time, J. Gordon. Oh and DJ won the No Bull $1 million bonus. I thought that was so cool as an 11 year old child. 303. Smokefan05 posted: 12.09.2010 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I personally loved his rant after Dover 2009. "He'll get a ride and hang around for a couple of years and people will realize that he's not really that good." One full Cup season and two 10th place finishes later, its safe to say Hamlin was right." After 2 years? I guess Joey Lagano is a bust too then right? 304. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.09.2010 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One full Cup season and two 10th place finishes later, its safe to say Hamlin was right." Lol. One full season and he was right. BTW, one season in, and he has 1 less Cup win than Denny did after his first full season. Your trolling has been becoming less and less inspired lately. You don't seem to be putting in the effort to stir shit up like you used to. I don't think you even bother to read our posts, it looks like you just type shit out after reading one or two words. For example: "Yeah, like hell it's going to happen, with Dale Jr getting his extension, and Kahne taking over the #5 in 2012." I was talking about Brad stepping up on the big stage, not going to HMS. That obviously won't happen now. It was going to happen, but Brad moved on instead of waiting around forever for something to open up at HMS since Mark decided to go past the original 1 year deal (forcing Rick to keep him instead of firing Mark Martin and causing a PR holocaust). And since he has no emotional connection to Rick like June, Vickers, or Casey, he won't get the shot like they did. Seriously, I expect more out of you. I really used to look forward to our back and forth matches. But you have pulled a Dale Jr and put less effort in lately. You used to be the top troll on this site. Now? You're slipping. Pick it up dude. 305. Anonymous posted: 12.09.2010 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately he went to Penske and the #12 Cup car instead of HMS and the #5 car cause Mark wouldn't retire, so he hasn't been able to beat them on the big stage yet. I hope like hell it happens eventually." Keep on hoping, because he's going to let you down. Krashalotski will make Jamie McMurray look like Jeff Gordon by the time his totally underwhelming career skids to an inauspicious ending. 306. Bronco posted: 12.09.2010 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol. One full season and he was right. BTW, one season in, and he has 1 less Cup win than Denny did after his first full season" See, but there's a major difference there. Denny had only one Busch season prior to being a Cup rookie. Brad on the other hand may be a newcomer to Cup, however he's had a shitload of experience in lower series, in both bad equipment (his truck team from 2005, his first Busch ride) and good equipment (the #88 Nationwide car, #25 Cup car). He had roughly four years experience before his "rookie" Cupseason, and at the end of the season the best he could do was two 10th place finishes. That's the same number of top tens that Allmendinger had in his second season of Cup, a when he was still figuring out stock cars. Meanwhile, the three drivers that you can't stand all entered their rookie season with even less experience than Brad, all with rides that hadn't won in a while or hadn't won at all, and won multiple races their rookie seasons and made the chase. 307. 18fan posted: 12.10.2010 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When was the last time a Penske car not driven by Kurt Busch won on an unrestricted track? Ryan Newman at the fall New Hampshire race in 2005. It is truly a testament to Kurt Busch's talent that he has won as many races as he has with Penske, a team that hasn't been the same since 2003. When "one of the best in the business" could only win twice in four years after winning 11 times his first three years in the 12 car, I don't have that high expectations for Brad due to the team he is driving for. The quote is what John Roberts said about Newman when Jimmie beat him at Martinsville in the fall of 2007. 308. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2010 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's also not forget Kurt has only won 8 races in his 5 seasons with Penske. He won that many in '02 and '03 at Roush alone, plus six more wins over the next two years. That should give an indication of where Penske's Cup program has been lately. They just can't get what Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, and occasionally Childress has had over the past 5 years. I think going to two cars will be a positive, especially considering those two have high dollar sponsors. Plus Penske hasn't really laid many people off. Hopefully pooling their resources on just the two cars with two drivers who seem committed to the Penske system will show results. Newman always seemed to be at odds with.... well everyone. We'll see. I'm hopeful. I know people will shoot these theories down, but I remain optimistic. 309. Sheamus posted: 12.10.2010 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For all you Denny Hamlin haters who say he is a heel... He is giving away a vacation on Christmas day for 4 people. I don't see your hero Jimmie Johnson doin that. Eh fella? 310. Talon64 posted: 12.10.2010 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penske's still going to run Hornish and the #77 for the first 5 races to try and get sponsorship. So they're not down to 2 full time cars yet, but I really doubt they'll be able to keep the #77 going beyond the start of the season. 311. ii posted: 12.10.2010 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Have you heard that Vickers might have a Rolex 24 ride lined up? He was asking people on Twitter whether he should give it a shot. It'd be his first time running the race." Thanks for the info! I'd count him in. 312. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.10.2010 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...In the 1.5 months since I ditched this site for the offseason, about 200 comments were made, most about NEXT YEAR! :| 313. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.10.2010 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's try to beat Junebug's record of 634 comments. That is quite a longshot, but let's try to at least reach Mikey's second-place 555 comments. (yes, Earnhardt only has 80-something comments, his death race has 100-something) 314. Smiff_99 posted: 12.10.2010 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shit, I can see the comment count hitting at least 400, which is to be expected. I dunno about all of you, but I'm already ready to get 2011 going......but it's still gonna be another 2 months. So I, like all of you, come back to this comment tpage simply because it's the most up-to-date series of discussions.........until pre-season testing begins, we have to entertain ourselves. 315. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2010 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unfortunately I'm afraid 2011 will continue NASCAR's downward trend. From the rumors I'm hearing, the championship system is about to become even more of joke than it already is. First of all, they'll probably expand it to 15 drivers. We've officially become the NBA where everybody makes the playoffs, including crappy teams like my Charlotte Bobcats last year. And secondly, they are probably gonna add some elimination element to it. Like a bad reality show. There is not any new blood on the horizon. Trevor Bayne and Aric Almirola are still at least one year away from moving up to Cup in quality rides. Kasey Kahne will have to spend yet another year in second tier equipment. Stiffs such as June, David Ragan, and Ryan Newman will continue to take up space in quality rides. Logano might break through, but at this point, he has been so hyped for the last 4 years and shoved down our throats by The Home Depot so much for the last 2 years most of us are already sick of him, AND HE HASN'T EVEN DONE ANYTHING YET!!!!!! I think he will break out, but will it really interest anyone? He is so damn boring. There are pretty much 2 types of drivers: Totally bland and fake (we'll call it The Jeff Gordon Memeorial Club. Current president, JJ) or Real But Complete DoucheBags (The Tony Stewart Memorial Club. Kyle Busch is the current president, vice president, treasurer, secretary, janitor, and office decorator). Here is what we need for 2011: First off, we need Jamie McMurray to make the next step and become a week in and week out contender while keeping the same appreciation for success he always has shown. Jamie makes us feel good when he does good. We need that. The other thing we need is Brad K to start running up front and stirring shit up on the track (while shrugging it off in post race interviews) in Cup like he has done in NWide. I know what some of you are thinking "Of course you think that, he's your favorite driver". Here is my unbiased response: Say what you will about Brad, he changed NASCAR. After ruffling the feathers of the holier than thou Cup "superstars" the fans had a positive reaction towards this. The result? "Boys have at it!" (which ironically Brad ended up being the biggest victim of). We need this in Cup. We need the Kyle, Carl, and Denny fans standing up and yelling for Brad to be hanged. We need everyone else who thinks those drivers are stuck up blowhards standing up and yelling in joy. Face it, the Cup Series is stale. It is like a country club with the drivers scolding any slightly inappropriate behavior. Brad will happily piss in the punchbowl. We need it. We need it bad. I ask this of the racing gods. I know they blessed us with 22 seasons Dale stirring things up. They owe us nothing after that incredible run. But I sure would like to see these divas rattled again. 316. Ryan posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not really. 2000 was the last year of the '90's, not the first year of the 2000's. Therefore, Richard Petty won in four different decades, as 1960 was the last year of the 50's. (And he may have been the winner at Lakewood Speedway in 1959.)" That's incorrect... Decades go like this 1960-1969 1970-1979(Earnhardt won one in 79) 1980-1989(won 38 races) 1990-1999(won 35 races) 2000-2009(won two races in 2000) 2010-2019 317. Ryan posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No way Jimmie Johnson or Jeff Gordon are successful if it's not for power steering." Prove it. Oh wait, you can't" Can't prove it, but I can go by what richard petty and Gordon both said, they dont think he could have made it without them... Gordon is too short and doesn't weigh enough 318. Eric posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In terms of change in Nascar for drivers, that really can't be done before 2015 at the earliest. Cup Drivers have won cup championships from 40 to 45 years old in the past. Drivers like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Matt Kenseth are could win races at a decent pace up to 45 years. After that, it is an unknown because drivers in the past have problems winning races after the age of 45 like Dale Jarrett did, but Harry Gant won cup races at a good rate after turning 50. Jeff Burton will be 48 years old by the end of 2015. Greg Biffle will 46 at the start of the 2015 season. Those two will be the key if their wins or performance will start to decline in 2015. David Reutimann, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Matt Kenseth are the next group of drivers to see if their performance starts to dip from 2016 to 2018. 319. Bronco posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stiffs such as June, David Ragan, and Ryan Newman will continue to take up space in quality rides." Newman and Jr are definitely stiffs. Never mind that both are double digit cup winners right? "The other thing we need is Brad K to start running up front and stirring shit up on the track (while shrugging it off in post race interviews) in Cup like he has done in NWide. I know what some of you are thinking "Of course you think that, he's your favorite driver". Here is my unbiased response: Say what you will about Brad, he changed NASCAR." You're right, he has. In just 8 or 9 months, he has been the victim of the front bumper of Denny, Carl and Kyle in retaliation for stuff he did to them in the first place. That basically started all the on track retaliation trend we've seen this year, (Leffler at Nashville, Reutimann at Kansas, Busch Sr at Martinsville). "Face it, the Cup Series is stale. It is like a country club with the drivers scolding any slightly inappropriate behavior. Brad will happily piss in the punchbowl. We need it. We need it bad. I ask this of the racing gods. I know they blessed us with 22 seasons Dale stirring things up. They owe us nothing after that incredible run. But I sure would like to see these divas rattled again." Lol. You need to go watch some dumb reality show or something. You're not into NASCAR for the on track product (you know, the quality of racing), you're into it so that your guy can piss others off, which apparently gives you a weird kick or something. 320. Anonymous posted: 12.11.2010 - 2:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Face it, the Cup Series is stale. It is like a country club with the drivers scolding any slightly inappropriate behavior. Brad will happily piss in the punchbowl. We need it. We need it bad. I ask this of the racing gods. I know they blessed us with 22 seasons Dale stirring things up. They owe us nothing after that incredible run. But I sure would like to see these divas rattled again. " Kyle Busch has done 10 times as much Keselowski to stir up NASCAR and its fan base. Fans hate him and everything he does way more than they like Brad or anything he has done. Face it, replace Brad's name with Kyle's in that paragraph and it's just as true. No driver is scolded more by his peers than Kyle. No driver displays more inappropriate behavior. No driver rattles his competitors and fans more than Kyle. Of course for some reason idiots like you label him a "diva" because he hates to lose more than anyone else, yet you want so desperately to find another driver who displays the exact same behavior. But most NASCAR fans are idiots so it doesn't surprise me anymore. 321. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Newman and Jr are definitely stiffs. Never mind that both are double digit cup winners right?" Yeah, in the early part of the decade. From 2005 to present they have 6 combined wins. When you can't do more than that in 6 years, it's time to look elsewhere for drivers. "Lol. You need to go watch some dumb reality show or something. You're not into NASCAR for the on track product (you know, the quality of racing), you're into it so that your guy can piss others off, which apparently gives you a weird kick or something." Am I not the one who has been complaining this has become a bad reality show with the rule changes? Pay attention dude. Anyways, I don't care if they piss people off just to piss people, it is the circumstances behind it. When the "look at me, I'm so high and mighty, people need not race me hard because I'm too important for that" drivers get their feathers ruffled, it is exciting. And the "on track product" would increase greatly if the drivers actually cared about beating one another. "Kyle Busch has done 10 times as much Keselowski to stir up NASCAR and its fan base." Exactly: NASCAR and the fan base. Among the drivers he is just another diva. And he isn't very polarizing, he is pretty much universally hated. He has become a cartoon character of himself lately. His meltdowns are so predictable (yet so entertaining) and his over the top post race interviews ("OMG, we SUCK, we only finished 3rd. It's a shame we are so far behind the competition" or the way he acts like he's been assaulted when somebody does something to him that he does constantly (Reut)) have become old hat too. He hasn't done much to upset the establishment. He just throws a fit and everyone ignores him. "No driver rattles his competitors and fans more than Kyle." Not really. He might bully drivers with lesser talent or lesser equipment (Reut, June) or drivers in the lower Series, but he is simply a part of The Club. Once people fight back, he immediately backs down (Stewart in '06, Edwards in '08). Hell, JJ is so unrattled by Kyle, he just sat there and let Kyle knock him in the back bumper at Martinsville for 40 laps instead of moving over, and was flipping him the bird the whole time. And JJ was racing for a championship! Did Kyle ever just spin him out and get it over with? Nope. And afterwards he immediately consulted JJ to make sure JJ wouldn't be mad at him. Kyle puts up a huge bark, but in reality he is just another country club asshole. "Of course for some reason idiots like you label him a "diva" because he hates to lose more than anyone else, yet you want so desperately to find another driver who displays the exact same behavior." There is a difference between "going all out for the win" and acting like a 5 year old when you do lose, throwing everyone in sight under the bus including your own team. He doesn't hate losing more than anyone else up top, he is just the most immature. Compare his interviews after wrecks to Brad's. "But most NASCAR fans are idiots so it doesn't surprise me anymore." Which is why you come to NASCAR discussion boards which are frequented by, imagine this, NASCAR FANS! You think we are mostly idiots yet you go out of your way to be around us. Can you say "troll". I think most of Justin Beber's fans are idiots. Do I go to any of his websites and troll their discussion boards? Hell no. 322. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2010 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW, should I mention the ruckus that was caused on this board by merely mentioning Brad? That pretty much proved my point for me. 323. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2010 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just how influential is Brad? They just finished repaving Daytona and Goodyear has invited 20 drivers to tire test for them...... including Brian Keselowski!!! How the hell did that happen? Brad got his brother in a Daytona tire test even though Brian hasn't done anything other than start and park. (yes, this post needs to be taken with a grain of salt) 324. 18fan posted: 12.11.2010 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have nothing more to say than that I have a stronger opinion in favor of what DSFF said because he was able to prove it. And if you think NASCAR fans are idiots, what the hell are you doing on a NASCAR discussion board. 325. Spen posted: 12.11.2010 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan : Not really. The calender went straight from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There was no year zero. Therefore, the first decade was 1-10. Yes, 0-9 is usually considered a decade, but in all reality, it's not. Sorry about the off-topicness, but that's a pet peeve of mine. 326. Eric posted: 12.11.2010 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nascar Fans can be idiots. You could see some of the comments on the Kyle Busch page such as RCR293133 comment claiming Kyle Busch is one of the biggest busts in Nascar history. RCR293133 also claims Kyle also is a decent truck and nationwide driver. Those statements shown RCR293133 is both bias and idiotic. Willy on Wheels is another example of an complete idiot fan of Nascar or of a Nascar troll. 327. ii posted: 12.11.2010 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank god Willy isn't posting here! 328. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2010 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks 18fan. Sorry I trash your driver a lot. It's just how I feel. Don't worry too much though. I think he'll get it eventually. Obviously with his talent, it won't take much to put him over the top. Just hope he doesn't burn all his bridges before he gets there. 329. 18fan posted: 12.11.2010 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's okay DSFF. I know that he gets a ration of trash from everybody so I've learned how to handle it and I don't get butthurt when someone makes a negative comment about Kyle. 330. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2010 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol 18fan. Glad you don't take it personal. 331. ii posted: 12.12.2010 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I posted in post 299, I have disliked Kyle Busch since 08. I have got used to him winning, and there is still a tiny part of me thinking, "why can't NA$CAR do steiroids testing?" That can't be possible, though, because Kyle can't drive for his life in Cup (he wins, yes, but if he wants to be a contender he has to be consistent). He should stay in Nationwide and let Ickler drive his truck and get him a championship (I'm sorry, 18fan, but this is just my opinion. Please don't take it personal like you didn't with DSFF) DSFF, I don't have anything personal against you, either, but if you trash Busch, you trash Earnhardt as well. Haven't you heard all the rant about "Kyle Busch--the new Intimidator??" That isn't true, but he drives - and sometimes acts - like him. I just think people hate Busch because people are jealous. He's winning everything he races in, particularly Nationwide. But, like Johnson, he isn't the best around, because back then there was no Nationwide or Truck series. Everyone's so hyped up on how much he wins. In Cup he has just 19 wins in 6 seasons. Nationwide he has 43! 24 in Truck! Not like it matters, he has 1 win in 1 career start in the East series. I'm not a fan, but everyone needs to stop whining about "oh, Kyle won again, I'm gonna kill my TV like that guy did when Palin kept dancing," or "Johnson won again, I'm gonna jump off a cliff because Brian France won't do anything about it." There's nothing anyone can do, so just deal (oh, and I'm not defending anyone, so don't quote me). 332. ii posted: 12.12.2010 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And if Kyle Busch actually finished this race, it would be the 5th year in a row he's had 3 DNFs. This year, he had 4. 333. Ryan posted: 12.12.2010 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ryan : Not really. The calender went straight from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There was no year zero. Therefore, the first decade was 1-10. Yes, 0-9 is usually considered a decade, but in all reality, it's not. Sorry about the off-topicness, but that's a pet peeve of mine." pet peeve or not, everyone now considers it that way. Whenever 2010 hit the media all said "2010, the beginning of a new decade." They have said for years now its like that. Sorry 334. Ryan posted: 12.12.2010 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/decade 335. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2010 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes, 0-9 is usually considered a decade" I thought 0-9 was the Carolina Panthers record this year :) "That isn't true, but he drives - and sometimes acts - like him." I disagree. I respect your stance, but Dale didn't pitch fits and throw everyone under the bus like Kyle does. I also don't think he drives much like Dale. Even though they are both wide open, you almost always had the sense that Dale was in control. With Kyle, I don't get that. I'd compare his driving more to Ernie Irvan's than Dale's. When either of them make/made a move, there was a 50/50 chance of it actually succeeding. With Dale, 99% of his moves worked for his benefit. Whether it was 3 wide passes, the Pass in the Grass, the REAL Pass in the Grass at Riverside (I can't remember which year it was, but he passed Geoff "I'm Smarter Than Everyone Else" Bodine who was slowing to try to get around a lapped car by just diving into the dirt and going right past him), there was a method to his madness. And plus there is the fact that, during crunch time, Kyle collapses like the Metrodome roof, and Dale did his best work in the clutch. 336. Smokefan05 posted: 12.13.2010 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch and DW are more alike then Kyle and Dale. 337. Bronco posted: 12.13.2010 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgot to mention this before, but the best thing NASCAR did this season was the standardized start times, with most races starting just after 1pm ET and finishing up in the late afternoon. This year's Homestead race was the first one to end in the day since the 2004 event, and barring a delay of some sort, next year's 500 will end during the day as well, although I prefer a night time finish. This is also the last race with the fugly splitter braces that teams keep having issues with, the integrated front end for next year looks much better. 338. Anonymous posted: 12.13.2010 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That isn't true, but he drives - and sometimes acts - like him." "I disagree. I respect your stance, but Dale didn't pitch fits and throw everyone under the bus like Kyle does. I also don't think he drives much like Dale. Even though they are both wide open, you almost always had the sense that Dale was in control. With Kyle, I don't get that. I'd compare his driving more to Ernie Irvan's than Dale's. When either of them make/made a move, there was a 50/50 chance of it actually succeeding. With Dale, 99% of his moves worked for his benefit. Whether it was 3 wide passes, the Pass in the Grass, the REAL Pass in the Grass at Riverside (I can't remember which year it was, but he passed Geoff "I'm Smarter Than Everyone Else" Bodine who was slowing to try to get around a lapped car by just diving into the dirt and going right past him), there was a method to his madness." Hear that everybody? This guy is an expert. And obviously he knows more about Dale than those drivers who raced against Dale, knew him personally, and that say the exact opposite. I mean we all know DSFF is a model of objectivity, especially when it comes to Kyle Busch. We should all totally respect his opinion on the matter. 339. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.13.2010 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle Busch and DW are more alike then Kyle and Dale." I saw this, and I felt the need to respond and say that I've always felt a comparison between those two more so than between Kyle and Dale Sr. Kyle wins a lot like DW used to, and DW ran his mouth a lot when he was having success. The only difference is, DW won 3 championships. 340. ii posted: 12.13.2010 - 6:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "When either of them make/made a move, there was a 50/50 chance of it actually succeeding." Did you see the Homestead Truck race? "I thought 0-9 was the Carolina Panthers record this year :)" 0-13 :) 341. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.13.2010 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, what about the spoilers? 342. Talon64 posted: 12.13.2010 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Kyle Busch and DW are more alike then Kyle and Dale." I saw this, and I felt the need to respond and say that I've always felt a comparison between those two more so than between Kyle and Dale Sr. Kyle wins a lot like DW used to, and DW ran his mouth a lot when he was having success. The only difference is, DW won 3 championships." Same here. That's probably the reason why DW is always going on and on about how great Kyle is. 343. lordlowe posted: 12.13.2010 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) dalesrfanforever the year in which he passed bodine in the dirt at riverside was November 1987 344. Eric posted: 12.13.2010 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii, The Pathers aren't 0-13. They are 1- 12. The Carolina Panthers won a game against the 49ers 23 to 20 in week 7. 345. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.14.2010 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its true that the Carolina Panthers suck this year, but they are a young team. Compared to my hometown Cincinnati Bengals, whose run of futility includes 2 playoff appearances (05 and 09) in the last 20 years, the Panthers have a brighter future. The Bengals have the worst owner in professional sports, period. Mike Brown makes Brian France look like Jerry Jones. 346. ii posted: 12.14.2010 - 6:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Its true that the Carolina Panthers suck this year, but they are a young team." Yes, but 1-12? The Washington Nationals are a new team, and on average, they win once every 3 games! That means the Panthers record should be 4-12 if they were the Nationals in baseball. 347. Frank posted: 12.14.2010 - 6:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great discussion guys, but please don't switch to football and spoil the reuslts because I'm watching games in 2-7 days delay (Tampa Bay fan). My 5 cents on Dale and all-time greats. I'm reading a book of articles about Earnhardt which have been written before his death. Dale himself talked that Richard will always be the King independently whether he, Earnhardt, will win his 8th or not. Richard, by the way, admitted that in his days most drivers ran for the wins and very few worrying about points championship (and this is common trend for all motorsport). In my mind #1 will be Bobby Allison (may be because I've read awesome biography written by Peter Golenbock), then Pearson and then Earnhardt. Petty will be only 4th because his "200 is a biiiiiig number man, I tell you what" is like Kyle Busch wins in NWide and Truck. Short races on short tracks with 20 cars and only PE was professional team. By the way NASCAR 50 Greatest Drivers list announced in 1998 put Dale only 4th behind Richard, Pearson and DW. 348. I Seize the Day posted: 12.14.2010 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dang dogs, did you see Cliff Lee is joining the Phillies? That is the Hendrick team of football. "Mike Brown makes Brian France look like Jerry Jones." Dude Jerry Jones sucks as an owner. Brian France already looks like him without help. 349. potatosalad48 posted: 12.14.2010 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne will be driving the #4 in 2011, according to Jayski's Silly Season site 350. Smiff_99 posted: 12.14.2010 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So I assume that means Vickers will be back in 'his' #83? 351. I Seize the Day posted: 12.14.2010 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff, that is correct. Vickers will be back in the 83, although he won't be participating in the tire test this week. Sorenson will be testing for Red Bull 352. potatosalad48 posted: 12.14.2010 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) post 350: yes 353. Talon64 posted: 12.14.2010 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Its true that the Carolina Panthers suck this year, but they are a young team." That better look for a better franchise QB than Jimmy Clausen; he has the worst QB rating of any QB this season by far at 55.0; to put that in better perspective, Derek Anderson is 2nd worst at 65.9. And Brett Favre's 3rd, 69.6; that potential career-ending shoulder injury is a blessing at this point. 354. ii posted: 12.14.2010 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dang dogs, did you see Cliff Lee is joining the Phillies? That is the Hendrick team of football." Apparently you have no knowledge of sports. Phillies is BASEBALL. 355. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.14.2010 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ post 353 The QB situation has been a sore spot for us for a long time. Ever since Delhomme started getting injured a lot, it has been a problem that we, as a frnachise, have done NOTHING about excpet drafting that bum Jimmy Clausen. Before his injuries, Jake was a decent QB. Yeah, he definitely made his share of Favre-esque mistakes, but he could win and damn near won a Super Bowl for us. But ever since his injuries, he tried to throw like he did before, but couldn't. The result was 50 million INTs. It is made so frustrating because of the talent we have had for this whole time. Steve Smith is an absolute game changer. But he has nobody to compliment him to make teams pay for double teaming him, and rarely had a good QB. We have had excellent RBs. And our defense has always been preety good, sometimes exceptional. But we won't do anything about the QB situation. Now that we will most likely finish the season 1-15 (maybe 2-14 if we can beat Arizona, who also sucks), we will hopefully use our #1 pick and draft somebody worth a shit. And get a new coach. @345 I wish your Bengals the best of luck for the rest of the season. That way we will have the worst record and get the #1 pick. If we luck up and beat the Cards, and Cincy loses the rest of their games, we might lose the coin flip for the #1 pick. So pull your boys through for another win or two. "Dude Jerry Jones sucks as an owner." I was thinking the same thing. He has 3 rings thanks to Jimmy Johnson (the coach, must be something about that name) and his insane talent evaluation skills. Ever since Jerry decided he was the smartest person in football, fired Jimmy, and took over GM duties, and Jimmy's players began being faded out (yeah, they won another Super Bowl with Switzer, but that was with Jimmy's team) they have been crap. They have one playoff win since 1996. Ouch! 356. ii posted: 12.14.2010 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is NA$CAR. Let's keep a NA$CAR blog focused on what it's supposed to be about, not the history of football. I know DSFF and I started the whole football thing, but I didn't know it would lead to this. So let's just stay on-topic. 357. ii posted: 12.14.2010 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So far, 1 team is locked in the playoffs: my Patriots! They demolished last week, but gave up their first TD since Thanksgiving. How did we end up talking about football? 358. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.15.2010 - 12:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, The Bengals will not win another game this year. Hell, Palmer threw 2 pick 6's against the Steelers who were unable to score an offensive touchdown. If its not the QB, its special teams, a soft secondary, an inability to play a solid 4 quarters of football. A damn pee wee team could potentially beat the Bengals right now, they are the worst team in 2010. The Jerry Jones analogy was misplaced for sure. But, Jerry did the right thing by firing Wade Phillips. Mike Brown is the unofficial GM of the Bengals and if he fires Marvin Lewis, nothing will change in Cincinnati. Two one and done playoff games in the last 20 years, 20 freaking years. I believe the Detroit Lions have 6 playoff appearances since 1990. At least Dallas has a playoff win in the last decade. Everyone is Bengalized in Cincinnati, who dey? has become who they? 359. ii posted: 12.15.2010 - 6:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay...staying on topic... I've heard rumors that Prism Motorsports is shutting down. I hope that's true, that's two less start and parks to worry about! Also Keyed Up Motorsports is returning (#90 w/ Scott Riggs). "And Brett Favre's 3rd, 69.6; that potential career-ending shoulder injury is a blessing at this point." Did he miss last game because of that? If he did, it ended a record streak of 297 straight games played. 360. I Seize the Day posted: 12.15.2010 - 9:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii Typo on my part brah, I meant baseball but had football on my mind. I wish my Broncos could sign some free agent superstars this off season 361. Smiff_99 posted: 12.15.2010 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii- I'm a Pats fan, too. And I don't wanna hear about any of that 'Spygate' bullshit. Every coach worth his weight in cheese has had personnel tape other teams' practices. Bilichek got caught. Back to the topic at hand (or anything racing related).....why in the HELL is nobody showing the tire test from Daytona? I mean, yeah, tire tests are never televised, but this is different. The repaving project (which will change the complextion of the racing at Daytona entirely) has been a major storyline the last few months.....wouldn't you like to have seen the first on-track action on the new surface? I know I would have. 362. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.15.2010 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. No one realized that the only reason Jimmie got the championship is Kyle getting spun out by Kevin durning green flag stops? This is sad. Talk about postseason crap on Facebook or something. 363. Talon64 posted: 12.15.2010 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin won the NASCAR DOTY but Jimmie Johnson gets the national DOTY award. http://www.racintoday.com/archives/23432 I've got no problem with that, or that John Force finished 2nd (Jimmie got 10 out of 18 votes, John Force got 7). What I've got a problem with is that Kyle Busch got a vote. Denny Hamlin won a Cup-best 8 wins in 2010, finishing 2nd in the standings. Kevin Harvick had the best overall season in Cup in 2010, 8.7 average finish and 3 wins. Dario Franchitti won the 2010 Indycar championship, his 2nd straight. Will Power had an Indycar-best 5 wins and 8 poles. And then there's Kyle Busch who had 3 Cup wins but only finished 8th in the standings, and then beat up on lower tier series. He didn't deserve a vote over the guys listed above. 364. Anonymous posted: 12.15.2010 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson wins DOTY award for his 4th time this year. 365. JJSucks posted: 12.15.2010 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I accept that Jimmie takes advantage of the chase system but he is still the least deserving multiple time champ of all time. 366. Smokefan05 posted: 12.15.2010 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5o93warPr8&feature=recentlik This is only about 18 seconds long but the track looks good. This is the tire test. 367. Talon64 posted: 12.15.2010 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought I'd already posted something about DOTY here... so... JJ got 10 out of 18 votes, John Force got 7 votes... And Kyle Busch got a vote over his championship-contending teammate who won the most Cup races in 2010. Or Kevin Harvick who was the best from start to finish on the season. Or Dario Franchitti for his Indycar championship, or Will Power who won the 3rd quarter award and had the most wins in 2010. But Kyle got one for his 3 Cup wins, 8th in the standings, and cleaning up in the 2nd and 3rd tier series. :P 368. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.15.2010 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry ii, but what are we gonna talk about? JJ being champ (again)? Kyle Busch's Fall meltdown (again)? A Cup guy winning the NWide title (again)? June underachieving (again)? Alright, I'll take a stab at it: Who are everyone's predictions for Surprise driver of '11 and Biggest Disappointment of '11. For Surprise Driver, it has to be somebody besides those who are already being discussed as favorites for the 2011 Cup. It has to be somebody that is being written off as an afterthought but rises up to have a lot of success and make somewhat of a title run. This eliminates JJ, Denny, Harvick, and Edwards. My pick: Matt Kenseth. Who is thinking about him contending next year? He changes crew chiefs like Larry King changes wives. He hasn't won in almost 2 years. His '03 Winston Cup title seems like it happened 25 years ago. But towards the end of the season he really seemed to find something with Jimmy Fenning. Ever since Robbie stepped down as his crew chief, Matt has been unable to find that mind bending chemistry he had with him. But Matt and Jimmy seem to be getting it. Add that to the strength the Fords showed over the last few races, and I think they'll surprise some people. They've both done it before. For Biggest Disappointment: It has to be a driver expected to continue their success from the previous season and make a serious run at the title. My pick: Kevin Harvick. I know what your thinking. "Oh, that's just cause you hate Harvick". Yes, I can't stand him. But I'm just looking at his history and just how streaky he is. He did exceptional in '01 as a rookie considering his circumstances. In '02 he bombed memorably. 2003 was a Top 5 points year with the Indy win. He went winless the next season and missed the cha$es the next two seasons. 2006 was incredible. 5 wins and lots of laps led. He followed that with a dramatic Daytona 500 win to start '07 with his new sponsor, then went into the witness protection program, barely preserving a Top 10 points finish (kinda like Earnhardt in '98). He did manage a Top 5 in '08, but went winless and absolutely fell apart in '09. With all of RCR struggling, he did his worst. Plus, RCR has had issues staying on top. 369. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.15.2010 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The repaving project (which will change the complexion of the racing at Daytona entirely) has been a major storyline the last few months.....wouldn't you like to have seen the first on-track action on the new surface? I know I would have." Same here. If Goodyear brings a hard enough tire to Daytona in February, we might be in store for some excellent competition. Handling will not play as large a factor as it has in recent years. What we will have is Talladega clone races in 2011, more of less. I would think SPEED would at least cover the tire testing as a normal race weekend practice session. For surprise driver: Jamie McMurray finds the consistency that eluded him this year and makes his first Chase. Kenseth will rebound next year. Mark Martin wins one more race, hopefully the Daytona 500 and have a scene along pit road like the 98' race. Biggest Disappointment: Denny Hamlin wins early and then flames out in the Chase, like Stewart did in 2009. 370. Eric posted: 12.15.2010 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprise Driver: My Pick: Jamie McMurray. Joey Logano is my runner up for this catagory. If RCR doesn't fall behind in engines, Jamie really could finish in the top 3 in points if he has consistency. Joey made a huge step forward in 2010 with him having 5 straight top 10's to finish the year. I called him a surprise because I think could win up to 3 races and finish in the top 5 in points. Giggest Disappointment: Hamlin, and Kyle Busch. Those two will dominate the first 26 races in wins, but will flame out in chase. Hamlin usually doesn't do that well in the chase. Kyle Busch is known to do really bad during the chase. I hope 2011 isn't the same for Kyle, but he doesn't have good history during the chase. I give those two a tie because I believe those two will win anywhere from 12 to 16 races combined in the first 26 races. 371. potatosalad48 posted: 12.15.2010 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Suprise of the Year: Brad Keselowski. Driving in Penske's top car with a crew cheif he works well with, I could see him getting a win in 2011. Disappointment of the year: RCR. Going back to 4 cars I don't think will work. 372. Smiff_99 posted: 12.15.2010 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprise Driver--A.J. Allmendinger. I was gonna say McMurray, but seeing him improve on his performance from 2010 wouldn't be a surprise to me. I picked A.J. cause he's shown a LOT of improvement over the past year or so......especially compared to where he was in 2007. I think with the newfound stability at RPM (The King is now calling the shots), he'll finally get that first win (and maybe even 2 or 3). In terms of points, I think he'll be outside of the chase....but not by a lot. Biggest Disappointment: The Chase 373. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.15.2010 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Joey Logano could be our surprise driver. He improved at a respectable rate from last season, and although he still only has a rain-shortened win that can be picked apart easier than a set of pool balls, he could possibly get his first legit win if he keeps up his improvement. He finished second to Hamlin at Martinsville, a tough track. I'm not a fan of his in any way, but he's making progress. As for our disappointment, I would say either Matt Kenseth or Kevin Harvick. I just don't think all of the crew chief changing that Matt has been doing is going to help even though Roush seems to be returning to contention. He had his best chemistry with Robbie Reiser. And I'm predicting Harvick because he has had a history of following a great season with a mediocre one. He finished 9th in points in '01, but 21st in '02. He finished 5th in points in '03, but 14th in '04. He ended up 4th in points in '06, then 10th in '07 (although this season wasn't really mediocre for him, '06 was just better). He then struggled to 19th in '09 (along with a lot of trash talking about RCR) after finishing 4th in '08. Just my opinion... 374. Frank posted: 12.16.2010 - 5:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, #369 Yes, what we will have is Talladega clone races in 2011 and that is gonna be big dissapointment because all that lead changes pumping stuff is completely useless. Contrary last year both Daytona races was very good - we've seen how long a car can keep the bottom, we've seen slidings, we've seen long-run ability. Me and my good friend are coming to this Daytona 500 from Russia and were bit dissapointed not to be able witness that legendary surface but attending our first race will be cool anyway independently from quality of racing. 2011 Surprise - Joey Logano. He will be in Chase solidly and will win no less than 2 races w/o weather help. 2011 Dissapointment - RCR. Looks like Richard is too old to learn the lesson of expanding his organization with below-average driver from the first try. 375. ii posted: 12.16.2010 - 6:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My surprise driver: Logano: Before Homestead, his last finishes were 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd. I wouldn't be surprised if he wins a few races and makes the Cha$e (even under the old format with 12 drivers). This year wasn't his year, but '09 wasn't either, so this should be his breakthrough. Allmendinger is a close 2nd, he should've won Dover June, and he is only 2nd because the future of RPM is unclear. Dissappointment driver: Harvick: Just look at the stats. He was a fantastic rookie in '01 when he replaced Earnhardt. '02 was completely off. In '03, he finished 5th in the standings. '04 and '05 were off, finishing 14th each season in the standings. In '06, he won a career-high 5 wins and finished 4th in the standings. In '7, he won the 500, but finished 10th with just 3 other top-5s and 14 other top-10s. '08 was consistent - he didn't win, but he finished 4th in the standings. I don't need to talk about '09, you all know what happened. This year, he did the best he ever did. Next year, he's gonna fall far. 376. I Seize the Day posted: 12.16.2010 - 10:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprise driver - Paul Menard. I dont expect a Chase or wins, but he will add on to his top 10 total from this year and a 20 top points finish seems likely, especially since we might have only 28-29 cars racing full time, full distance. Disappointment - Denny Hamlin, Kevin Harvick, and Carl Edwards. These three are going to labeled as JJ's biggest threat for the championship in 2011. There is no way Harvick will duplicate his success of consistency in '11 nor will Hamlin have 8 wins. Edwards will be the best of the bunch, but with the expectations he has going into next year, anything less than a top 5 points finish will be a disappointment, which will be the case. 377. I Seize the Day posted: 12.16.2010 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most commented race ever. 378. ii posted: 12.16.2010 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @377: When did this happen? And who's really keeping track? 379. Talon64 posted: 12.16.2010 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Brad/Carl Atlanta race had 365 comments, the most I've seen for any race. But that's more legit because all of them had to do with the race and the players involved. This has become the off-season thread to comment on just about anything. AJ Allmendinger, Joey Logano and Dale Jr. are my surprise drivers; AJ's shown a ton of growth over his career; Joey ended the season really strong, and even if it's just the off-season Dale Jr. is as jacked as he's been in a long, long time. Based on what I've read and what I've seen from his and Letarte's comments. Disappointment.... Jimmie Johnson. For Christ's sake, the streak has to end eventually and he'll have to have a down year eventually. Even though the HMS switches had nothing to do with Jimmie directly, maybe, JUST maybe, it'll throw them off their game. 380. I Seize the Day posted: 12.16.2010 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii - I am keeping track holmes 381. Talon64 posted: 12.16.2010 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The rumor of the day: It looks like 2007 F1 World Champion Kimi Raikkonen is switching from Citroen to Ford in WRC, and Ford could offer him a ride for some NASCAR races. Kimi was a rookie in WRC last year, finishing 10th in the standings (last of drivers who ran all the races, Kimi running 12 of 13 events) with a best finish of 5th. His Citroen teammates finished 1st, 4th and 5th while Petter Solberg finished 3rd with his privateer Citroen team. Like JPM, Kimi's got the car control to adapt to stock cars as quickly as anyone. But he's said in the past he's not interested in NASCAR so it's still unlikely. But it doesn't mean I can't hope. 382. Frank posted: 12.17.2010 - 5:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, I know you're following F1 also but really? Why we need Kimi? Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore? Moreover, the only driver who adopted to stock cars quite normal is Montoya but in my opinion he is very talented racer (in overall top-10 from the last 15 years) and proved that well before. Outside F1 where car means almost everything Raikkonen didn't show anything. And this "rumor of the day" is totally f1-style "news" applying to the future. 383. ii posted: 12.17.2010 - 6:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Disappointment.... Jimmie Johnson. For Christ's sake, the streak has to end eventually and he'll have to have a down year eventually. Even though the HMS switches had nothing to do with Jimmie directly, maybe, JUST maybe, it'll throw them off their game." Maybe is right, but when he stops winning, he'll drop out of competition because "oh, finally, someone beat Johnson, a hero is born!!!" 384. Foyt14 posted: 12.17.2010 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Talon64, I know you're following F1 also but really? Why we need Kimi? Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore?" I like seeing champions and great drivers from other forms of motorsport trying out NASCAR. First off, it lends more legitimacy to NASCAR racing by having more of the world's best drivers. And second, it grows the sport into new markets and brings in more, different types fans. It's the same reason it's good to see Travis Pastrana switching to NASCAR. 385. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.17.2010 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore?" Unfortunately not really. First of all, a lot of short tracks that used to breed future stars are closing down, like the Nashville Fairgrounds. And most importantly, the amount of money needed to run successfully on the local circuits to get noticed has skyrocketed. Most of the newer people got noticed because their families paid obscene amounts of money to buy them the best stuff so they could win a lot of races and get noticed. Logano is a perfect example of this. His Dad is a millionaire and always had him in the best stuff. As a result he won everything, which led to Mark Martin singing his praises to anyone who would listen that he was the future when he was just 15 years old. Gibbs snatched him up, put him in lower level Series with the best possible equipment, and he won more races. That is why his Cup career has been so bad up until the last 10 races or so despite being on a 2 time champion team. He never had any competition before. When he got to Cup, it was the first time he had to race against people on equal ground as him. Of course he's getting it now, and I expect him to break out next year, but if his Dad was a paycheck to paycheck guy, he would have never had a prayer. And that is the problem. Unless you have somebody willing to basically give away a WHOLE lot of money to a young kid who may or may not want to be a racer once he becomes an adult, you can't compete. You can't get anyone's attention. Plus the NWide Series pipeline has totally dried up thanks to the Cup guys ruining it (which includes my guy, Brad). Add it all up, and it had made for some serious stagnation of talent in Cup. In my opinion, if there is one legitimate complaint against JJ's run, it is that he started it at the most perfect time. 2006 was the last year a good crop of new rookies came in (Hamlin, Bowyer, and Truex), and only one of them has turned out to be a major player (Hamlin), one has become a fringe contender (Bowyer), and one has only shown to be a Top 15 guy for the most part (Truex). He hasn't had to face any new competition that usually crops up every year like dynasties of the past. For example, during Gordon's heyday ('94-'03), Jeff Burton came in and challenged Jeff while driving for Roush. Tony Stewart showed up and had an immediate impact, eventually beating him in '02. Kenseth showed up and beat him in '03. And of course JJ showed up in '02 and ran him right off the map. Or look at the Earnhardt dynasty ('86-'94). Rusty got in good equipment in '86, beat him in '89 and darn near beat him in '93. Davey Allison came in and gave him a run in '91, and beat the hell out of him in '92. Mark Martin came back with Roush in '88, and damn near beat him in '90. Ernie Irvan hit the scene (as well as everything else) in the late 80s and early 90s, ironically debuting in a car paid for by Earnhardt, and was giving Dale all he wanted in '94. And of course Gordon showed up in '93, and grabbed the torch from him for good in '95. But anyways, thanks to the dried up lower circuits, we don't have this exciting new group of newcomers like we had in the past. And the results have been predictable: everything has pretty much stayed status quo since 2006. Especially up top. 386. Smokefan05 posted: 12.17.2010 - 12:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Talon64, I know you're following F1 also but really? Why we need Kimi? Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore? Moreover, the only driver who adopted to stock cars quite normal is Montoya but in my opinion he is very talented racer (in overall top-10 from the last 15 years) and proved that well before. Outside F1 where car means almost everything Raikkonen didn't show anything." Robby Gordon and Tony Stewert. Where are they at? Or are they just chip liver? I wouldn't have a problem if Kimi came over. Travis is coming and i don't have a problem. Danica (can i say that name without the world coming down on me?) came over i didn't have a problem with it. JPM came over and it never bothered me. 387. Kyle Busch posted: 12.17.2010 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to thank Complex Media for calling me the dirtiest competitor in NASCAR history. 388. Smokefan05 posted: 12.17.2010 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Or are they just chip liver?" Chop liver. -_- 389. Talon64 posted: 12.17.2010 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Talon64, I know you're following F1 also but really? Why we need Kimi? Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore? Moreover, the only driver who adopted to stock cars quite normal is Montoya but in my opinion he is very talented racer (in overall top-10 from the last 15 years) and proved that well before. Outside F1 where car means almost everything Raikkonen didn't show anything." Kimi Raikkonen's only been rallying since 2009, but joined Carlos Reutemann as the only drivers to score points in both F1 and WRC (Reutemann finished 3rd in the Rally Argentina in 1980 and 1985). At times Kimi's been considered the best race car driver in the world. Add him to world class drivers like JPM who's racing full time and Mattias Ekstrom's who's driven a few races and it's all big time credibility for NASCAR in the world spotlight. I couldn't give a shit where quality race drivers come from. 390. ii posted: 12.18.2010 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Robby Gordon and Tony Stewert. Where are they at? Or are they just chip liver?" I know you ment chop liver when you said chip, but you made another mistake ON YOUR FAVORITE DRIVER. First of all, how can you not spell "Stewart" wrong? Did you not go to school? Second, you're a Smoke fan, so how do you mispell such a thing? "I wouldn't have a problem if Kimi came over. Travis is coming and i don't have a problem." If and when Travis comes to cup, he'll steal Junior's spotlight in Most Popular Driver. I don't have a problem with any driver coming over, either, as long as they aren't the next Jimmie Johnson or Kyle Busch. "But anyways, thanks to the dried up lower circuits, we don't have this exciting new group of newcomers like we had in the past. And the results have been predictable: everything has pretty much stayed status quo since 2006. Especially up top." I agree. Look at the Rookie standings for the past 2 years. 2 drivers each! And there wasn't a single rookie this year that ran the full schedule. I still go to the local short tracks once in a while. They all don't perform well, but it's a hell of a show to watch. This past year, on a tiny 3/8 mile track, a car flipped over! It's not safe, but it's kind of cool to see huge wrecks on a track that has held many boring Modified races (Waterford Speedbowl). There is a lot of action in all of the All-American series'. "Are there no capable drivers who was growing on short tracks anymore?" On NASCAR Now a few months ago I saw a feature about "the next Jeff Gordon." I would kind of believe that, but he's racing go-karts. I expect this kid to race in F1 or IndyCar. I don't expect any more drivers growing on short tracks in a long time, probably after the recession is fully over. 391. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.18.2010 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell yeah, ii, the Modifieds rule. I love watching them. Fortunately I live 10 minutes from Bowman Gray and about 30 minutes from Caraway. I get to see them race a lot. And they put on a hell of a show at North Wilkesboro on the Kansas weekend. First of all, I was so damn happy just to be back at North Wilkesboro. And then them putting on a show like that was the icing on the cake. 392. Smokefan05 posted: 12.18.2010 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know you ment chop liver when you said chip, but you made another mistake ON YOUR FAVORITE DRIVER. First of all, how can you not spell "Stewart" wrong? Did you not go to school? Second, you're a Smoke fan, so how do you mispell such a thing?" I'm not the only one who misspells his name, purhaps you should go after them and not me. I really don't enjoy been insulted about weither i went to school or not. "Stewert" and "Stewart" i've seen it posted that way. i've been correct many times on either of those. But this is a site on racing, not english skills. Lets try to keep it on racing please. 393. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2010 - 9:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But this is a site on racing, not english skills. Lets try to keep it on racing please." I know, I hate it when people point out spelling mistakes. If you are like me, you try to type what is on your mind as quickly as possible. That leads to typing mistakes. We aren't stupid, sometimes we just hit the wrong key. 394. Smokefan05 posted: 12.19.2010 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know, I hate it when people point out spelling mistakes. If you are like me, you try to type what is on your mind as quickly as possible. That leads to typing mistakes. We aren't stupid, sometimes we just hit the wrong key." Yeah also of how to spell peoples names. But that has happened here before and we know how that turned out. ;) 395. ii posted: 12.19.2010 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fortunately I live 10 minutes from Bowman Gray and about 30 minutes from Caraway." If I want to see Bowman Gray races, I just watch "Madhouse." That is some good ol' classic racing. 396. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2010 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JarrettFan, I could kiss you (you know, if I wasn't a southern fried homophobic redneck like some people claim). I thought the Panthers screwed up the #1 draft pick by beating the Cards, but Cincy beat the Browns. What a great day! 397. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.20.2010 - 3:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny DSFF... In addition, some people claim the south is a hotbed of homophobia. They obviously have not visited Cincinnati, New York City, (fill in the blank northern city). I don't think the Panthers are in danger of losing the #1 draft pick because the Bengals beat them earlier this year and as long as Cincy falls to San Diego and Baltimore, as both teams are in the AFC Playoff hunt, and Carolina losses out, Carolina gets the first draft pick. On a side note, its hilarious when 'casual' sports fans claim NASCAR is a redneck, southern fried sport. Do they realize JJ is a California kid and the last southerner to win the Cup was Bobby Labonte in 2000. Yeah, 2000 know it alls!!!! 398. 18fan posted: 12.20.2010 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, I totally agree. I live in southern California and people call me a redneck because I like NASCAR so much. I hate people that are ignorant like that. 399. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.20.2010 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I live in southern California and people call me a redneck because I like NASCAR so much. I hate people that are ignorant like that." It's best to just ignore people with that mentality. They think they know it all when they really don't know shit. If anything, NASCAR has shyed away from the "redneck" faction and more towards the "worldwide stream" faction. 400. Sheamus posted: 12.20.2010 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im Irish fellas, and my friends call me a redneck! But darnit, I am a proud Irish redneck and I wish NASCAR could go back to the redneck roots. It would get rid of the Jimmie Johnson dilemna. I am comment #400. 401. Smokefan05 posted: 12.20.2010 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If anything, NASCAR has shyed away from the "redneck" faction and more towards the "worldwide stream" faction." Yet some people will not admit that NASCAR is watched worldwide. I live in Michigan, i'm the furthest thing from a redneck that you can get. 402. ii posted: 12.21.2010 - 6:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) None of my friends are NASCAR fans, they call me a redneck and I don't live in the Southeast. But I don't really care, words don't hurt me. "I live in Michigan, i'm the furthest thing from a redneck that you can get." Did anyone call you a redneck? "Im Irish fellas, and my friends call me a redneck! But darnit, I am a proud Irish redneck and I wish NASCAR could go back to the redneck roots." Good point about going back to its roots. Why can't we have a few dirt races here and there? If ARCA can do it, we can! "I am comment #400." I didn't think this would go anywhere near 400. Last year there were only 168! The year before, just 125. '07 had just 73 and 2006 had a mere 45. So awesomegordonfan, if you don't think we can beat Junior's record, guess again! 403. Frank posted: 12.21.2010 - 7:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) =At times Kimi's been considered the best race car driver in the world= First of all that's ridiculous but more important is that such metaphore used regularly by media and mostly doesn't worth a shit. I know that Kimi got F1 ride having less than 20 open-wheel races under his belt and was considered as the best by f1-media. But F1 in his days already been CAR racing where driver is just a detail and pretty irrelevant. Look, he beat his teammate JPM in 05 but lost to Massa in 08 (even was his 2nd driver in team orders). WRC now is just a joke judging by manufacturers outcome and endless rule changing. BTW any FIA championship is joke in my opinion. 404. Frank posted: 12.21.2010 - 7:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For me it's also not a factor from where driver is if he is good by I hate all the hype like "7-time formula one (race) winner". If driver coming to series he must prove himself from nothing, outside success becoming just history. Tony Stewart had a lot of dirt track background, Robby Gordon drove IndyCars and at least knew what is oval racing. 405. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.21.2010 - 9:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you guys for pointing out racism and homophobia are a widespread issue, not just in the Southeastern USA. Not only foes it exist nationally, it exists worldwide. I'm not excusing the blatent racism sometimes shown in the South, it sure as hell doesn't make it right for us just because it exists elsewhere, but were are not the only ones. The shame of it is, like many of you mentioned, NASCAR is simply synonomous with redneck. This hasn't been the case for a long time. They have had stock car racing in the Northeast (if you count midifieds, which I do) and the Midwest for a LONG time. Many old school racers got their starts out there. Benny Parsons, despite being born in the mountains of NC, began racing while living in Detroit as a mechanic and cab driver on their local tracks. Dave Marcis, Rusty Wallace, and Mark Martin either started out, or made a name for themselves on the midwest bullrings. 406. Smokefan05 posted: 12.21.2010 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did anyone call you a redneck?" Do you and i have a problem? Cuz that is the feeling i'm getting. No one did on here but i get called one daily and i just have to laugh out loud when it happens. Just like i get called a retard because i have ADD. "WRC now is just a joke judging by manufacturers outcome and endless rule changing. BTW any FIA championship is joke in my opinion." It's a joke because some guy has won the championship for the last 7 years? I agree it's not what it used to be but stats are stats. 407. I Seize the Day posted: 12.21.2010 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Do you and i have a problem? Cuz that is the feeling i'm getting." Oh snap! Nothing like a rivalry a brewing on Racing-Reference.net! 408. I Seize the Day posted: 12.21.2010 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know its .info by the way. Just trying to aggravate people that get PO'd over the small stuff. 409. Smokefan05 posted: 12.21.2010 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tony Stewart had a lot of dirt track background, Robby Gordon drove IndyCars and at least knew what is oval racing." Also some guy named Foyt, 2 guys with the last name Andretti. Those guys did well too. I'm also willing to bet that Senna would have done atleast decent in NASCAR if he wanted to try it. Based on talent alone that is. 410. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.21.2010 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good topics. While its true Nascar has southern roots, the phenomenon of local dirt track racing on Friday/Saturday nights is common throughout the United States. America loves cars and racing grew out of this fascination. I appreciate Formula 1 and Indy cars for that same reason. On the subject of racism and homophobia, this is not a regionally-contained thing. Actually, some of the worst race riots in 1968 occurred in cities throughout the west, midwest and northeast. And lets not forget the Stonewall incident occurred in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of NYC in June 1969. I know that some nations in the Middleast and Africa like Iran and Uganda, execute suspected/admitted homosexuals found guilty of sodomy. This is utterly deplorable and a travesty of human indecency perpetuated by religious zealotry and hate. Enough of my soap box moment. 411. Talon64 posted: 12.21.2010 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm posting this here just to see if it'll format okay when I put it up in a new blog. It's a list of drivers who've had 10.0- average finishes or better in each season in the modern era, 1972-present: Year Driver Avg Fin 1972 Richard Petty 4.7 Bobby Allison 5.3 James Hylton 9.5 David Pearson 7.9 1973 Cale Yarborough 10 David Pearson 7.8 1974 Richard Petty 6.8 Cale Yarborough 6.7 David Pearson 7.9 1975 Richard Petty 6.6 1976 Cale Yarborough 8.2 Richard Petty 9 Benny Parsons 9.6 David Pearson 6.9 1977 Cale Yarborough 4.5 Richard Petty 7.5 Benny Parsons 7.8 Darrell Waltrip 8.3 David Pearson 9.6 1978 Cale Yarborough 6 Bobby Allison 9.4 Benny Parsons 9.4 Dave Marcis 8.7 1979 Richard Petty 6.4 Darrell Waltrip 7 Bobby Allison 8.6 Cale Yarborough 8.6 1980 Dale Earnhardt 8.2 Cale Yarborough 9 1981 Darrell Waltrip 7.2 Bobby Allison 6.8 1982 Darrell Waltrip 9.1 Bobby Allison 9.3 1983 Bobby Allison 7 Darrell Waltrip 7.7 Bill Elliott 9.5 1984 Terry Labonte 8.3 Harry Gant 8.6 Bill Elliott 8.6 Dale Earnhardt 9.6 Cale Yarborough 7.4 1985 Darrell Waltrip 7.3 Bill Elliott 8.7 Harry Gant 10 1986 Dale Earnhardt 7.4 Darrell Waltrip 10 Tim Richmond 9.9 1987 Dale Earnhardt 5.9 Bill Elliott 9.9 1988 Bill Elliott 6.6 Rusty Wallace 7.1 Dale Earnhardt 8.8 1989 Rusty Wallace 10.3 N/A 1990 Dale Earnhardt 8 Mark Martin 6.6 1991 Dale Earnhardt 8.6 Ricky Rudd 9.5 1992 Alan Kulwicki 10.6 N/A 1993 Dale Earnhardt 8.2 Rusty Wallace 9.4 1994 Dale Earnhardt 8 1995 Jeff Gordon 9.5 Dale Earnhardt 9.2 Sterling Marlin 9.8 1996 Terry Labonte 8.2 Jeff Gordon 9.5 Dale Jarrett 8.8 1997 Jeff Gordon 9.6 Dale Jarrett 9.6 Mark Martin 9 1998 Jeff Gordon 5.7 Mark Martin 8.6 1999 Dale Jarrett 6.8 Bobby Labonte 9 Mark Martin 9.4 2000 Bobby Labonte 7.4 Dale Earnhardt 9.4 2001 Jeff Gordon 11 N/A 2002 Tony Stewart 12.6 N/A 2003 Matt Kenseth 10.2 N/A 2004 Kurt Busch 12.5 N/A 2005 Tony Stewart 9.9 2006 Jimmie Johnson 9.7 Matt Kenseth 9.8 2007 Jimmie Johnson 10.8 N/A Jeff Gordon 7.3 2008 Jimmie Johnson 10.5 N/A Carl Edwards 9.5 2009 Jimmie Johnson 11.1 N/A 2010 Jimmie Johnson 12.2 N/A Kevin Harvick 8.7 412. ii posted: 12.21.2010 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Do you and i have a problem? Cuz that is the feeling i'm getting." Yes. We keep quoting each other and DSFF and that is it. I've had the same feeling a few weeks ago when we were doing this. To the above post: Many people hate how Jimmie Johnson is always in the top-10 but THINK AGAIN. Since 2001 only 2 champions have had an avg. finish under 10 (Smoke and Johnson).Before that, it was just Kulwicki and Rusty. The competition is close but not in the Cha$e. Also on NASCAR.COM I heard that Pemberton was making the changes, not France. NASCAR will benefit since France won't decide anything. Who agrees? 413. Smokefan05 posted: 12.21.2010 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Well if it's Pemberton then i can give him some slack but if it doesn't work then he gets full 100% of the blame. If it works then 100% credit goes to Pemberton. Brian should be relieve that he doesn't have to make this change, cuz it will not be him that will get all pooed all over if it doesn't work. Robin you should prepare yourself and not wear thing that stain easily when the fan throw "stuff" at you. :P 414. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.21.2010 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks Talon. The average finish stat is fascinating. The lack of people under 10.0 in the early part of this decade can be contributed to an obscene number of people that could contend for a win, or at least a Top 15 any week. However, as the decade wore on, and the recession took its toll, and the number of competitive cars decreased, this was offset by NASCAR rule changes (the lucky dog, the wave around, etc) that basically kept 30 cars on the lead lap at the end of every race. So any late race miscue is deadly. If I'm not mistaken, 2001 set the high water mark for number of winners. Not only did a lot of different drivers win, a lot of different teams won. Even teams that don't exist anymore like Cal Wells' team, Andy Petree's team, Bill Davis, Robert Yates Racing, Evernham Racing, the Wood Brothers (on a full time basis), plus DEI and Ganassi which had to merge recently. Jeff Gordon led the league with 6 wins (in 36 races!). That was probably the height of parity. 2002 also had a lot of winners. Kenseth had the most wins with 5. This meant nobody was going to victory lane over and over again. 2003 saw Newman win 8 times (seems like a long time ago), but mostly on pit strategy which was annoying. Kurt was second with 4 wins. Neither came close to the Winston Cup. Sure the point battles weren't great (except in '02), but NASCAR was a lot of fun back then because there were a lot of people winning, running up front. That is one of the things we really want to see. I think NASCAR overestimates how much fans care about the championship race. Yeah, we keep up with it and judge people heavily on their championship totals, but for pure entertainment purposes, we want to see a lot of people with a legitimate chance to win on any given week. This has a two fold effect. One, we don't get bored watching one guy win over and over (JJ alert). Plus it keeps drivers from just riding around throughout a race. With 15 people that can realistically win, you can't afford to fart around. You gotta run up front, and that makes the racing better. Prime example: 2004. That was the year Brainless Brian instituted the cha$e. As a result, we haven't had a points blowout since (under phony circumstances, but still). But that was also the year JJ and the 48 team exploded, winning 8 times, and beginning their run of domination. With the exception of his 4 win '05 and his 5 win '06, he hasn't won less than 6 races in a season since, including a 10 win '07 that put everyone to sleep. Combine that with the talent pipeline producing very little and good car counts going down, every year you have two or three drivers that win most of the races which is not very exciting. In '07 it was JJ and Gordon winning nearly half the races just among the two of them. In '08 it was JJ, Carl, and Kyle winning 2/3 of the races. In '09 it was JJ, Mark (which I didn't mind), Smoke, Kyle and Denny winning OVER 2/3 of the races. This year it was JJ and Denny. Translation: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. I'll take a lot of winners over a close points battle just about any year. Bottom line, NASCAR should have put in a 2 car team limit a long time ago. 415. Cooper posted: 12.21.2010 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know about anyone else, but I watch races to see who will win the darn thing, not about how many points that driver can rack up. NASCAR was never about the championship, it was about who could get from point A to point B the fastest. I guess this can now be labelled as the 2010/2011 Off Season Race Page. 416. Frank posted: 12.22.2010 - 6:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The difference between exciting race and exciting points battle is that you must watch it in first case to say how exciting it was and you can only look at standings in the second case. So I think France and co want to attract new audience the way like "just look how tight it is" and pick up good rating in the fall. Of course NASCAR (and all racing in the world) is about win (contest in speed) - championships had been introduced later and still most people ran for the wins for several reasons. For example, team is good just on plate tracks and may skip all other. Part of an excitement from Brad's first victory was that he was part time driver. Then remember Mark in 07 who should've won the 500 and first Phoenix. I think it's evident that for committed fan quality of the race is more important than quality of the championship battle simply because more contention means more chances for his guy to win. And if he follows dominator it makes his wins more valuable than "first of none". 417. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.22.2010 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know about anyone else, but I watch races to see who will win the darn thing, not about how many points that driver can rack up." Same here. I want to get other people's opinions on this. I know it is a bit hypocritical that we judge people by championships, but are more interested in each individual races, but I would rather have a season like '01 or '03 (many different winners, good races, championship blowouts) than a season like '04 or '10 (close championship battles, unsatisfying races). Fortunately the two driver that have won most of the races since '02, JJ and Smoke, have won 7 of the last 9 titles. But overall NASCAR needs to fix the racing, not the championship system. Because let's face it, whatever they decide the points sytem will be, the 48 team will gear all their preparation towards that. I mentioned '04 before, but I would like to give an opposite example: 1991. That was a year of great racing. The things that happened that didn't involve the championship were very fun to watch. From Swervin Irvan's surprise Daytona 500 win, to Davey Allison breaking out, winning 5 races and showing that he was gonna be a serious force for years to come, to Harry Gant's 4 race winning streak at age 51, one of the best feel good stories in NASCAR history. The racing was outstanding. You had the Sears Point race that is still being debated to this day. You had the DJ/Davey Michigan battle. The Rusty/Ernie April Bristol battle. The late race Earnhardt/Gant battle at Wilkesboro. It was just a fun year. But the points battle? AAAAAARRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!! That was one of two seasons, 2002 being the other, that NASCAR should have said "Screw it, nobody deserved the Winston Cup this year" and not given it out. And this is ME saying that, Earnhardt won it. Dale and Ricky jumped out to a big early season lead while everyone else stumbled badly out of the gate. Their late season "battle" for the Cup was embarrassing. It's like they took turns seeing who could be more mediocre. At the fall Charlotte race, Dale blew an engine about halfway. This would have been great news for Ricky had he not crashed out beforehand, allowing Dale to GAIN points. As the story famously goes, Dale pulled his blown up car into the garage, got out of the car which was next to Ricky's mangled car, and threw his arms up at Ricky as if to say "What the hell are we doing?". Then Geoff Bodine won the race (under suspicious circumstances, but still) which caused Dale to go on suicide watch. At one point, he seriously considered jumping in his farm's bush hog machine. OK, I made that last part up. I guess what I'm trying to say is the championship battle that year sucked. If you get a chance sometime, watch Dale's post race interview at Atlanta when he was presented the Winston Cup. It's like he didn't know whether to force a smile or throw a paper bag over his head. It was the worst champion's interview ever until 2004 when Kurt Busch obliterated Dale's low water mark for enthusiasm (and rightfully so). But the racing was excellent, so I remember that year fondly. 418. jarrett88fan posted: 12.22.2010 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I positively agree DSSF on the question of satisfying races in the 01' and 03' seasons. Actually, Jarrett challenged Gordon in 2001 up until the 24 won at Indy and Watkins Glen and Ricky Rudd was a threat until he blew up at Martinsville and wrecked in the last lap big one at Talladega. Then we have seasons like '02 and '91 which make the races more entertaining because of the parity of the championship battle. 419. jarrett88fan posted: 12.22.2010 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But overall NASCAR needs to fix the racing, not the championship system. Because let's face it, whatever they decide the points sytem will be, the 48 team will gear all their preparation towards that." I don't know about the 48 team being able to win a championship under a different points system because we haven't seen it. In 2002, if he didn't blow up at Talladega and miss the setup at Atlanta and Rockingham, he could have won the WInston Cup in his rookie season. In 2003, if the team didn't struggle for a couple races midway through the season, he could have overtaken the more consistent Matt Kenseth at the end. I personally would like to see if the 48 team is as good as I think they are by winning under a different points system. It would help validate their legacy. A test of any great champion, is the ability to win despite changing circumstances that could easily derail lesser competitors. My criteria is as follows... Multiple championships: check Adversity: check Strength of competition: debatable Versatility on the track: debatable Ability to seal the deal: Multiple checks Changing teams/points systems/crew chiefs: ???? 420. Talon64 posted: 12.22.2010 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Translation: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. I'll take a lot of winners over a close points battle just about any year." Same here. 2001 was the first year I really started watching NASCAR which was both the worst possible timing thanks to Dale's death and the best because it was such a great season, with so many different people going to victory lanes. 19 different drivers and THIRTEEN DIFFERENT TEAMS won a race: HMS, RCR, Roush, JGR, DEI, Robert Yates Racing, Chip Ganassi Racing, the Wood Brothers, Cal Wells' PPI Motorsports, Andy Petree Racing, Evernham, Bill Davis Racing and Penske. Here's the win totals: HMS: 6 JGR: 5 RYR: 5 DEI: 5 RCR: 3 Roush: 2 CGR: 2 APR: 2 WB's: 1 PPI: 1 Evernham: 1 BDR: 1 Penske: 1 There were 5 drivers who won a race that finished outside the top 20 in the standings, including 44th place Robby Gordon who only made 17 starts between Morgan-McClure Motorsports, Ultra Motorsports and RCR. And all of this in a Jeff Gordon-dominated season where he led 2320 laps, the 2nd most he's ever led in a season. Rusty led 1104, Dale Jr. led 767 and then nobody else led much more than 500. Yet 26 drivers led at least 100 laps, compared to 19 in 2010... 2010: 19 2009: 18 2008: 18 2007: 15 2006: 19 2005: 20 2004: 19 2003: 22 2002: 24 2001: 26 2000: 17 1999: 15 (6 different drivers led 1000+ laps, combining to lead 6920 out of 10132 laps run that season) This matches the trend of fewer drivers and teams winning races over the years, and the dip and rise of drivers with great average finishes. 421. Eric posted: 12.23.2010 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Part of the reason of the amount of drivers having 100 or more laps went down from 2001 to 2010 is a couple reason. Some teams from 2001 no longer exist. The big one is 2001 to 2003 was a transitional time in cup racing. 2001 was the combination of upcoming drivers, aging drivers and established but didn't hit 40 yet like Jeff Gordon. Dale Sr. dying in 2001 Daytona 500 had a key on the amount of drivers that led 100 or more laps. Rcr was ready for a championship in 2001, Harvick wasn't though at the time for a cup championship. Dale could have had more than 353 laps led in 2001 if he didn't die. There wouldn't be anything close to 2001 to 2003 till around 2016 at the earliest for amount of drivers having more than 100 laps led. Jeff Burton is the only driver with a question mark on how many good or great season has left at this time. Jeff is going to be 44 next year. 2016 is when Matt Kenseth, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, David Reutimann,and Biffle will be 44 years old or older by the end the 2015 season. Some of those drivers will be very competitive past 45, but some may not in terms wins or being in contention for a win. 422. Frank posted: 12.23.2010 - 3:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2004 was the year I started watching NASCAR and I can't imagine how someone can call it not a good year in terms of racing like DSFF just did. How about Kahne's lost photo-finishes early in the season? Kurt's defence from Rusty on OLD tyres at OLD Bristol? Pothole at Martinsville? GWC rebel at Talladega? (then pretty boring summer) Mayfield's 2nd Richmond win? Rudd vs. Nemechek at Kansas? Junior's late charge at Talladega? Jeff's charge at Charlotte? Darlington and finally Grand Finale that was very good race even if we count out points battle. 423. Smiff_99 posted: 12.23.2010 - 9:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1997 was the first year I watched the whole season from Daytona to Atlanta. Some memorable moments from that year: -Hendrick's 1-2-3 in Daytona -Jarrett fights off a charging Ted Musgrave to win the Transouth Financial 400 -In his 4th season, Jeff Burton finally breaks into the win column in the inaugural Texas race. -The Winston 500 goes caution free -Gordon becomes the second and final person to win the Winston Million after a thrilling battle with Jeff Burton just after taking the white flag. -Steve Grissom's fiery crash in the final race on the 'old' Atlanta layout. -The Labonte brothers gang up on and pass Kenny Schrader with a lap and half to go in the DieHard 500 for the win -Ernie Irvan gets his 15th and final career victory at Michigan, 3 years after the same track nearly killed him and essentially ruined his career. -After a severely hectic 1-lap shootout to decide the Pepsi 400, John Andretti emerges victorious in Cale Yarborough's #98 RCA car. It would be the first of his 2 career victories -Gordon edges Jarrett by a scant 14 points to earn his 2nd of 4 career titles 424. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.23.2010 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank, you are right. There were some really good moments from '04. A lot more than recent seasons for sure. I just look at that as the transitional year where a lot of what had made NASCAR so fun went by the wayside. Not just the cha$e system being put in place, but they only had one Rockingham race (a thriller!) which was quickly axed. That was the first year with two California Speedway races (ZZZZZ), a Labor Day not spent in Darlington, etc. 425. ii posted: 12.23.2010 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I watched the 2001 500 but I vaguely remember it. The only snapshot I have in my mind is Tony Stewart's crash. Didn't Dale flip in the '97 500 and race again? That was a bigger highlight than Gordon's win. I think that 2003 was the last best year. Rockingham was around, Brian France hadn't made changes, it was still the Winston Cup and Chase free, the SAFER barrier was introduced, and the list keeps going. I just wish we had the same "rules" as '03 without the Chase or Lucky Dog, and there was racing back to teh line, no wave-arounds. Better yet, more Southerners were racing in a sport now filled with New Englanders, especially in the Modifieds. The Homestead field of Southerners: Bowyer Elliott Mark Labonte Junior Sadler (I call VA a Southern state) Conway Burton I don't consider Reutimann or Nemechek southerners, even though they are from Florida because they don't have a southern accent. 426. potatosalad48 posted: 12.24.2010 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) i 1st started watching nascar in 2003. my most vivid memory was the EA Sports 500 at tally in october when the 38 flipped, mikey won and good ol' buckshot jones led 19 laps in an mwr car. 427. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.24.2010 - 3:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If I'm not mistaken, 2001 set the high water mark for number of winners. Not only did a lot of different drivers win, a lot of different teams won. Even teams that don't exist anymore like Cal Wells' team, Andy Petree's team, Bill Davis, Robert Yates Racing, Evernham Racing, the Wood Brothers (on a full time basis), plus DEI and Ganassi which had to merge recently. Jeff Gordon led the league with 6 wins (in 36 races!). That was probably the height of parity." Agreed. In my opinion, it was more competitive then. You actually had fringe teams running up front in several select races and looking decent. Bill Davis actually posted top-10 points finishes with Ward Burton, and that is an amazing feat considering Davis never had top equipment for his Cup cars. "I want to get other people's opinions on this. I know it is a bit hypocritical that we judge people by championships, but are more interested in each individual races" I'll tune into the races as long as they are exciting, and that we have a close championship battle. Last year, I didn't even bother to watch this race because I knew Jimmie was gonna win the title. This year, I knew it could be either Jimmie, Denny or Harvick so I actually tuned in from start to finish. "Didn't Dale flip in the '97 500 and race again?" Sure did. Once he noticed that all four wheels were still on the car, he actually GOT BACK IN AND RACED after the car had flipped! I wasn't an Earnhardt fan while he was still driving, but I admired that he didn't give up. 428. Smiff_99 posted: 12.24.2010 - 9:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I meant to include him finishing the race after flipping........classic Earnhardt. 429. Smokefan05 posted: 12.24.2010 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I kinds feel bad about the safety worker. I mean he is just doing his job and here come Dale kicking him outta his car and driving off with it. :P btw i made a NASCAR rant of sorts, if people would like to view i'll post the link here. 430. Fun Gus posted: 12.24.2010 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Homestead field of Southerners: Bowyer Elliott Mark Labonte Junior Sadler (I call VA a Southern state) Conway Burton Bowyer, from Kansas, a Southern'r? Damn boy you must be a Yankee! 431. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.25.2010 - 12:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Bowyer is considered a Southerner and Reutimann and Nemecheck from Florida are not, you must be tripping. Um, Virginia and Florida were part of the old Confederacy and are geographically located in the Southeast. Therefore, FL and VA are Southern states. I was born in Southeast Kentucky, also considered a southern (border) state. At any rate, Merry Christmas RacingReference and fellow posters! 432. Anonymous posted: 12.25.2010 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Merry Christmas everyone! 433. ii posted: 12.25.2010 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @431 Yes, but Floridan's don't have strong Southern accents. Merry Christmas to all! 434. Eric posted: 12.25.2010 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kansas is not a southern state. It is a Midwestern state and it is where Clint Bowyer came from despite his accent. A Person's accent doesn't mean where the person came from. My younger brother Always lived in Wisconsin, but has an east coast accent because he has problems pronouncing the R sound. He can't pronounce my name Eric, he pronounces my name Ewic . Merry Christmas to everyone. My dad got a M&M cap since he always the sponsor and is a Kyle Busch fan from my younger brother. He also is a Stewart and a Harvick Fan. 435. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.26.2010 - 10:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "btw i made a NASCAR rant of sorts, if people would like to view i'll post the link here." Sure. I like to hear other people's thoughts on NASCAR. 436. Smokefan05 posted: 12.26.2010 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyraCIlNZvc Mind you it isn't the best thing out there. It's just words on a slide show format. I'll putting up one more before Jan 10 2011. That is when start school. And there is no music, much to my dismay. -_- 437. Smokefan05 posted: 12.26.2010 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyraCIlNZvc Here you go. Nothing really special, just words in a slideshow format. 438. Smokefan05 posted: 12.27.2010 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Double post. Sorry guys but the link is the same. :-I 439. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.27.2010 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats DSFF, your Panthers have clinched the number 1 overall draft pick with Cincinnati trouncing an under-achieving San Diego team! 440. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.27.2010 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Congrats DSFF, your Panthers have clinched the number 1 overall draft pick with Cincinnati trouncing an under-achieving San Diego team!" Lol. What a joyous moment for me :) I'd like to thank God, Jimmy Clausen for being even worse than I thought he would be (and my expectations were REALLY low), whichever idiots in the Panthers front office decided drafting him would be a good idea, and John Fox for missing or ignoring the memo that 1970s football doesn't work in today's NFL. On a serious note, I'd feel a lot better about this if I trusted our front office not to screw this up by drafting somebody besides Andrew Luck. We REAAAAAAAAALLLLLLY need a QB. Knowing us we'll probably do something stupid like draft a defensive lineman. Not saying we couldn't use one, but we need a QB worse than Rex Ryan needs feet. 441. Eric posted: 12.27.2010 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, According to Peter King of Cnnsi, Andrew Luck learning towards staying in School. Peter King's source is Jim Harbaugh and the Luck Family. Andrew's dad (Oliver Luck) is a former NFL Quarterback and he is concerned about a the prospect of a protracted work stoppage. A work stoppage could prevented a drafted player from getting their playbook after Labor Day or later. Jim Harbough claims that it very likely that Andrew is coming back because Andrew's plan is staying in college for 4 years and get a degree in Architectural Engineering. Andrew right now has an excellent GPA with a 3.5 . Oliver Luck knows a lot the NFL from a business standpoint because he worked in the NFL for 10 years after retiring as a Quarterback. Oliver was a top-ranking executive with the National Football League. Andrew's Dad was a rookie when the 1982 NFL strike happened and probably reminded what happened to him as a rookie. The Luck Family isn't exactly hurting for money since his dad is currently the athletic director of West Virginia University and his resume as whole sounds like a person that is making a lot of money in his career. 442. Eric posted: 12.27.2010 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Andrew isn't coming out like it expects, the highest ranking Quarterback in the draft is Ryan Mullett. The Highest Ryan is projected is the 5 pick of the draft. I don't if the Pathers would be willing to pick him. For your sake DSFR, I hope the Pathers don't do want the Packers do when they have a top 5 pick in a Nfl draft. As a Green Bay Packer Fan since the 1980's in Wisconsin, I seen the Packers making major screw ups for drafting in the top 5 since 1987. Brent Fullwood was a bust and might have a played a factor on why Tony Mandarich was drafted instead of Barry Sanders besides having a lousy Offensive line. The GM of the Packers in 1987 also was the GM of the team in 1989 when the Packers had the 2nd pick of the NFL draft. Ron Wolf's first draft the Packers was one he screw up with drafting Terrell Buckley instead of Troy Vincent. Ron thought he was getting the next Darrell Green, he didn't and the Packers had problems covering tall Wide Receivers from 1992 to 1994 as a result including Chris Carter, Herman Moore and Micheal Irvin. 443. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2010 - 10:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes. If Luck doesn't enter the draft, we'll probably waste it one somebody that won't be a difference maker. Hell, we'll probably do that anyways. 444. I Seize the Day posted: 12.29.2010 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) dsff, get fairley dog. then in the second round get jimmy spencer at wr 445. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.30.2010 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yikes. If Luck doesn't enter the draft, we'll probably waste it one somebody that won't be a difference maker. Hell, we'll probably do that anyways." Like wait for it, wait for it... $cam Newton! Next year, $cam my enter the draft because (S)Cam is not going to be eligible to play after the NCAA and FBI conclude their investigation. It could be worse. The Kool Aid Man is making his rounds in Cincinnati. Local media have crafted a narrative that goes like this: Carson Palmer could return to elite QB status (he was close in '05) without the distractions of T.O. and Chad Johnson. Question::: What is the biggest "what the hell" moment in 2010 Nascar/other sports? 1. The Chase's junk mathematics points system. Honorable Mention: Auburn's $cam Newton and his (pimp) father. 446. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.30.2010 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is the biggest "what the hell" moment in 2010 Nascar/other sports? 1. The Chase's junk mathematics points system. Honorable Mention: Auburn's $cam Newton investigation. 447. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2010 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My 2010 "What the Hell?" moments: NASCAR only: 1) Hendrick putting June in the 48 shop: June has proven to be a black hole ever since 2005. That seems to be the year he decided "Hey, it doesn't matter how bad I screw up, fans will continue to love me unconditionally and pour $millions into buying my merchandise, and since I have never felt like putting it all on the line for racing anyways, I'm gonna quit and just soak up the fame". He just sucks the life out of everything around him (see Martin, Mark). Why would you even consider putting somebody like that in the shop of one of the greatest dynasties ever, one that could very easily keep extending its streak and make it undebatable as to whether or not they have had the most successful run ever (seriously, who is going to stop them in the next few years?). Why would you even start to tinker with it? Many factors have collided for this historic run by the 48 team, and one of those is the incredible feedback Jeff Gordon gives that gets used by Chad to set the car up, and Jeff's inexplicable willingness to play second fiddle to JJ and basically be his wingman. June gives no feedback. For a team that fell behind a little bit speed wise last year after the switch to the spoiler (especially to the Gibbs cars) and needs to get as much info as possible to catch up, this could really hurt them. Plus, June needs a Tony Sr type taskmaster on his pit box, but Rick gave him Letarte instead because June is too emotionally fragile to handle anything else. This makes no sense whatsoever. But Rick has basically adopted June as his son, so this is a bizarre form of nepotism. 2) Mark's decision to stay in the #5 car: If June is Rick's new adopted son, Mark is the red headed step child. Brought to HMS in '09 basically so Rick could say he employed one of the most respected drivers ever at one point, Mark has clung to the #5 car and Rick has made him pay. He started by giving his engineer to June for the '10 season and mandating that the purpose of the 5/88 shop was to get June back up to speed (while Rick continued to put his arm around June and say "it's ok that you are screwing up and are capable of so much more"). The result was a disaster for Mark and more wasted potential from the 88 from June and the talented people around him trying to get the most out of a lemon that is June. If that didn't yell out loud to Mark "Look, we don't give a shit about you here anymore" I don't know what would. But then they hired Kasey Kahne for the #5 car in 2012. This is where Mark should have said "alright, they obviously have their eyes on the future, not the past, and giving June everything in the world even though he sucks, it's time for me to bow out". But he didn't. Now Kasey and everyone else has to wait a year. If Mark thinks he got the short end of the stick in '10, wait until '11. It will be ugly. And Mark is too damn nice to do anything about it (something that has held him back his entire career). I'm not saying he should have retired, but he should have left HMS. They are gonna make him pay. 3) Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford's post Texas meltdown: They took the checkered flag for the 8th time at Texas, and had a sizeable point lead with just two races left. Then Mike and Denny took turns shooting themselves in the foot. First Mike decided to totally trash the 4 time defending champs in the press conference. He basically tugged on Superman's cape. Then, they were running off with Phoenix until the last stages. First, Mike didn't adjust enough allowing Carl to pass them on track (a 15 point swing). Then, knowing they were borderline on fuel, Mike didn't have them stop on that last caution. They could have adjusted themselves back into race winning contention and took fuel out of the equation. And Denny could pass at will all day, so track position wasn't an issue. Then, after being outsmarted by Chad (karma), Denny ABSOLUTELY LOSES HIS SHIT!!!! He throws his saftey equipment all around, heaves a water bottle at his car, and damn near breaks into tears in his post race interview, then throws Mike under the bus in the press conference. This is all going on WHILE HE IS STILL LEADING THE POINTS BY 15 WITH JUST ONE RACE TO GO!!!!!! Denny was still in the drivers seat. He had faster cars AND the points lead. Then at Homestead, he totally screws up qualifying, doing exactly what he got to watch his teammate do when he qualified before him. Then, while rocketing through the field in the early laps with an obviously fast car, he can't even complete Lap 24 before making a dumb mistake messing up his front end. This was compounded by Mike Ford not making any serious attempts to fix the damage despite cautions afterwards when they were just about at the tail end of the lead lap anyways. They gave this championship away. I knew Denny was unstable, but I never dreamed he was that bad under pressure. 4) Carl Edwards loses it while Aflac races to the rescue. For most of his career up until 2010 I kinda pulled for Carl even though it was pretty obvious something wasn't right with him, that his smiling aw shucks public persona was pretty obviously contrived. Still, I bought into it because he seemed like a better alternative to JJ and Kyle Busch (see my posts on the August Bristol '08 page). But this year, his real personality finally came out. We finally saw that underneath his fake exterior lies a really disturbed individual. At Atlanta he cut down 3 lanes across Brad's bumper. He saw the replay in the garage and ADMITTED THE WRECK WAS HIS FAULT! Still, well over 100 laps down, he decided to turn Brad on the straightaway when the cars are pushing 190+ MPH. Of course the result was horrifying. But NASCAR slaps him on the wrist because he is sponsored by Aflac who gives NASCAR a lot of money. He basically got the Tony Stewart treatment. Then, at Gateway, he does it again. After Brad drove into Turn 1 too deep, bumped Carl, hurting himself as much as Carl, Carl turns Brad straight into the wall ahead of a whole pack of cars causing another horrifying wreck. Again, he gets the Tony Stewart treatment. Even more incredibly, afterwards he undergoes his image rehabilitation tour. Showing up on every show smiling like nothing ever happened. Even more incredibly, the TV networks (who also get paid a lot by Aflac) built him back up. Meanwhile, the entire NASCAR Nation yelled "bullshit!!!". Oh well, after winning the last two races, he is considered a title favorite going into '11 just like he was in '06 and '09. Hopefully the results will be the same. 5) Kyle Busch melts down under pressure yet again. This really wasn't a surprise, but the magnitude to which he lost it in the cha$e was startling. Seriously, how old is this guy? Is it just me, or is he actually regressing? After a year of "Kyle is finally starting to mature" bullshit, he finally showed his true colors. And the result was embarrassing even by Kyle's incredible low standards. First he declares himself out of championship contention after blowing an engine at Cali with SIX races still to go in the cha$e (somebody please hand him a synopsis of JJ's 2006 cha$e), then at Texas he acts out like a 4 year old. And for the record, of his "incredible, HISTORIC 24 NASCAR wins" this year, 3 came in Cup, zero in the cha$e. As usual. This guy still has a long way to go. 448. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2010 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Other sports: 1) The Brett Favre saga: I'll condense this into 1 category since I could fill up an entire list just based on his debacles in 2010. Starting with his mind bending INT in the NFC title game aginst the Saints. I know he is "the Gunslinger", but he is also 40 years old and been in the league for 19 years (at the time). To make that pass in that situation is inexcusable. Then yet another "will he? won't he?" retire soap opera as he declares himself retired for the 4th time is as many seasons, and returning at the last minute yet again. Then he plays with the same amount of passion and enthusiasm of June racing that #88 car leading to a talented team never even being in contention for a playoff spot. Then he gets injured leading to "will this or won't this be his last game ever?" crap. Ugh. And you know what? I'm not even including his ultra embarrassing Cell Phone Dong-gate. That happened in 2008, so it doesn't count for 2010. Here is what kills me about this: He sent those texts in 2008. WHY DIDN'T STERGER (LITERALLY) EXPOSE HIM THEN?!?!?!? We could have been spared these last two years of his bullshit had she went after him then instead of now. It's like Mayfield screwing up his case against NASCAR. He could have exposed Brainless Brian and his stooges and caused them to have to step down, but he showed his ass (like usual) and screwed the whole thing up. Same with Sterger. I will never forgive either of them. 2) LeBron's "Decision": I don't follow the NBA much (luckily), but this was pretty mind boggling. OK LeBron, you have spent the last 7 years playing in Cleveland and being treated like a god there, even though you routinely shrank in the playoffs (they had the best record the previous 2 years and didn't even make the Finals). If you wanted to play elsewhere, that is fine. But go about it the right way. To basically break up with Cleveland on national TV and embarrass them in front of everyone after they deified you is pretty damn low. Hell, just having a 1 hour special all about you and your decision (despite never even winning 1 championship) is egotistical and looks bad. The whole thing was a travesty. Now you are D Wade's sidekick, a role player, and hated. Good job. 3) The NCAA showing special treatment towards Auburn and Ohio State: Jeez, I didn't realize Brian France also ran the NCAA. First, they do nothing to Auburn and $cam Newton (I like that nickname) even though it has been proven improper benefits were given. Everybody knows $cam will have to give back his Heisman trophy within a year or two a la Reggie Bush. But they don't want to hurt the BC$ title game. And then, 5 OSU players were found guilty of breaking NCAA rules (those rules are bullshit in my opinion, but rules are rules). So the NCAA suspends them for the FIRST FIVE GAME OF NEXT SEASON, BUT THEY GET TO PLAY IN THEIR BOWL GAME!!! What a crock of shit. This is blatent. If you break the rules, we will punish you unless it impacts one of our high dollar games. If anything, the NCAA owes Brian France an infringement rights fee. 4) The Bengals teaming TO with Chad Johnson: Didn't see any controversy coming from this one. Hell, why didn't they add Randy Moss once NE got rid of him? It's like they said "Hmmmmm, we just made the playoffs last year and are a few additions away from being a title contender. Our biggest problem is a WR that causes a lot of distractions by trying to promote himself. Hey! I've got it! Let's hire the other self promoting attention whore WR who has also caused major distractions everywhere he has been!" Brilliant. 5) Rex Ryan's foot fetish: I didn't think the man could be any more disgusting than he already was. I was wrong. The less said about this, the better. 449. Talon64 posted: 12.30.2010 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "5) Rex Ryan's foot fetish: I didn't think the man could be any more disgusting than he already was. I was wrong. The less said about this, the better." Agreed, let's put our foot down and not talk about it. "4) Carl Edwards loses it while Aflac races to the rescue. For most of his career up until 2010 I kinda pulled for Carl even though it was pretty obvious something wasn't right with him, that his smiling aw shucks public persona was pretty obviously contrived. Still, I bought into it because he seemed like a better alternative to JJ and Kyle Busch (see my posts on the August Bristol '08 page). But this year, his real personality finally came out. We finally saw that underneath his fake exterior lies a really disturbed individual. At Atlanta he cut down 3 lanes across Brad's bumper. He saw the replay in the garage and ADMITTED THE WRECK WAS HIS FAULT! Still, well over 100 laps down, he decided to turn Brad on the straightaway when the cars are pushing 190+ MPH. Of course the result was horrifying. But NASCAR slaps him on the wrist because he is sponsored by Aflac who gives NASCAR a lot of money. He basically got the Tony Stewart treatment. Then, at Gateway, he does it again. After Brad drove into Turn 1 too deep, bumped Carl, hurting himself as much as Carl, Carl turns Brad straight into the wall ahead of a whole pack of cars causing another horrifying wreck. Again, he gets the Tony Stewart treatment. Even more incredibly, afterwards he undergoes his image rehabilitation tour. Showing up on every show smiling like nothing ever happened. Even more incredibly, the TV networks (who also get paid a lot by Aflac) built him back up. Meanwhile, the entire NASCAR Nation yelled "bullshit!!!". Oh well, after winning the last two races, he is considered a title favorite going into '11 just like he was in '06 and '09. Hopefully the results will be the same." Amen to that! "1) Hendrick putting June in the 48 shop: June has proven to be a black hole ever since 2005. That seems to be the year he decided "Hey, it doesn't matter how bad I screw up, fans will continue to love me unconditionally and pour $millions into buying my merchandise, and since I have never felt like putting it all on the line for racing anyways, I'm gonna quit and just soak up the fame". He just sucks the life out of everything around him (see Martin, Mark). Why would you even consider putting somebody like that in the shop of one of the greatest dynasties ever, one that could very easily keep extending its streak and make it undebatable as to whether or not they have had the most successful run ever (seriously, who is going to stop them in the next few years?). Why would you even start to tinker with it? Many factors have collided for this historic run by the 48 team, and one of those is the incredible feedback Jeff Gordon gives that gets used by Chad to set the car up, and Jeff's inexplicable willingness to play second fiddle to JJ and basically be his wingman. June gives no feedback. For a team that fell behind a little bit speed wise last year after the switch to the spoiler (especially to the Gibbs cars) and needs to get as much info as possible to catch up, this could really hurt them. Plus, June needs a Tony Sr type taskmaster on his pit box, but Rick gave him Letarte instead because June is too emotionally fragile to handle anything else. This makes no sense whatsoever. But Rick has basically adopted June as his son, so this is a bizarre form of nepotism." Also eligible for a 2011 "What the Hell" Moment since that's when we'll see the effects of it. My "What The Hell" Moment for 2010 in racing is the entire F1 season and how so many drivers and teams tried their hardest to shit away the championship and somehow the team and driver that tried the hardest, Red Bull Racing and Sebastien Vettel, came away with it all. Vettel had 10 poles this season, 15 for Red Bull overall, but the constructors championships was only settled in the 2nd last race because of plenty of strategy mistakes and some untimely mechanical failures. Plus Mark Webber had some of the worst race starts I've been by a championship contender. And then Sebastien Vettel suffered the most when it came to the failures, while his bone-headed attempt to pass Button at Spa and then getting an unnecessary penalty on a restart in Hungary hurt him even more. Although Vettel tried the hardest, Hamilton got the job done with 2 straight races where he either shared full blame or partial blame for wrecking; a dumb pass attempt on the 1st lap at Monza and then getting into it with Webber in Singapore. Up to that point he was right in the hunt but that ended his title hopes. Ferrari saved the best for last, royally screwing up the strategy by worrying more about a floundering Webber than Vettel who had the pace to win the championship in Abu Dhabi. But hey it all made for a hell of a season! 450. RR posted: 12.31.2010 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A NASCAR WTF moment nominee... The Twitter fines. I do understand that business isn't so hot right now (much of that is a result of the organization's horrible decisons this decade, but that's another story), and it's important to maintain a decent image. And other sports routinely fined its participants for making disparaging remarks. But there are three issues that bug me with this... 1) NASCAR has always maintained that its drivers are "independent contractors," mostly to get out of helping the out-of-their-luck drivers who helped build the sport. But by the same token, drivers aren't employees of the sport, so why shouldn't they have a bit more freedom with their words (especially on non-NASCAR Twitter feeds). Of course, NASCAR probably used their "conduct detrimental to the sport" catchall, but the fines send a mixed message. 2) As part of their "have at it" mantra, NASCAR encouraged the drivers to reveal more of their personalities in interviews and other media outlets. Yet they censor messages they don't like. Another mixed message. 3) The fact that the fined were secret was ridiculous. For an organization with a history of transparency issues, it's a bit silly to fine someone in secret, and not even tell them what it was that got them fined. And, last time I checked, the logic behind a punishment was to deter someone for doing it. How does a secret fine stop someone from badmouthing NASCAR? I echo DSFF's comments on Mr. Favre. The "child-like love of the game" that the commentators so often associate with Favre is pretty much a euphemism for "makes way too many stupid throws that would send a high school quarterback to the bench." Seriously, have you ever heard someone say that Johnny Unitas had a "child-like love" for football? No, because he was a PROFESSIONAL who had the mental sharpness to make plays late in the game. 451. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.31.2010 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree 100% RR. The fines were pure bullshit and counter productive. Basically NASCAR at its finest. The biggest thing holding NASCAR back right now is NASCAR. Until they get decent leadership, NASCAR will never become what it is capable of. And losing Jim Hunter, one of the few (if not the last) voices of reason among NASCAR's "braintrust", is only gonna make things worse. But there is one thing you mentioned that I really agree with and has been bugging me for years: "NASCAR has always maintained that its drivers are "independent contractors," mostly to get out of helping the out-of-their-luck drivers who helped build the sport. But by the same token, drivers aren't employees of the sport, so why shouldn't they have a bit more freedom with their words" You are exactly right. When it is convenient for NASCAR, drivers and teams are "independent contractors". Like you said, when struggling teams are low on funds and in danger of folding, and could really use some help from NASCAR, they are "independent contractors". NASCAR just sits and watches and doesn't give a shit. But when they need drivers to be somewhere or do something for them, then they are suddenly valuable parts of the sport. And they don't expect us to see right through that? "Seriously, have you ever heard someone say that Johnny Unitas had a "child-like love" for football? No, because he was a PROFESSIONAL who had the mental sharpness to make plays late in the game." Exactly. I give Favre credit for being tough as nails (his replacement in Minny didn't even make it one quarter before being put on IR, and his Green Bay replacement, despite his outstanding on field work, has already missed a few games in just 3 years), but the fact is he never grew up. This is evidenced by his continuing to throw "What the hell were you looking at?" INTs and his cell phone dong texts scandal.I'm not a Saints fan, but I love what they did last season. First they prevented a Favre/Manning Super Bowl, where the winner would have been proclaimed the best QB ever (despite the winner having only half as many rings as Montana, one less ring than Brady who entered the league a long time after they did, and nowhere near the impact on the game of football as people like Unitas and Starr). Then Brees clearly outplayed Manning on the biggest stage. Love it. 452. Eric posted: 12.31.2010 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Rodgers only missed 1 game in 3 years as a Greenbay Packer starting Quarterback. Rodgers missed other games due to injury, but Brett Favre was the starter in Green Bay at the time. I am sure if the NFL concussion rules were as tough as they are now, Brett would have missed games with the Packers like Rodgers did against New England. Brett didn't play all the offensive snaps in a game either like Rodgers did against the Redskins, but played the next week. Brett was on the sideline while the Offensive was on the field for 3 or 4 games as a Packer including 3 in the 1990's, but played the next week. Brett took some hard hits as a Packers that I am sure might have been concussions and played with them. I followed the Packers since 1987 in Wisconsin and trust me that Brett was knocked silly at least a couple games during his streak. Brett is very stubborn for not wanting to get off the field no matter the type of injury and I think a part of it was caused by his fear of getting replaced permanently after he replaced Don Majkowski . 453. Eric posted: 12.31.2010 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Other Sports WTF moments: 1.) Brett Favre Saga: Huge list of things of reasons why. Brett can't decide if he will retire like he did in 2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008,2009, and 2010. Brett acted like a GM with the Vikings and got his wish on getting Randy Moss by trade. Preventing Webb from starting after he was ruled out late in week, just to get a concussion against the Bears is another reason for him being this high. Brett being Brett against the saints, Brett's Phone gate, and Brett preventing his team going to the playoffs. The ice of the cake is the Vikings not drafting a Quarterback for the 6th round because of Brett. 2.) LeBron's "Decision": See DaleSrFanForever's comments. Can't say it any better. 3.) Vikings Trading a 3 round pick to New England for Randy Moss: Moss was cut by the Vikings after a month. Brett wanted the Vikings to trade for Moss. The Vikings are not in great shape right now and giving up that pick could hurt them and it was NFL trade of 2010. They need a Quarterback, Offensive lineman, and Defensive lineman. I also have a hint for NFL Teams: Stop trading top 3 round picks with the Patriots. They new have at least 6 picks in the top 3 rounds of the 2011 draft. That team is already a Super Bowl favorite and making this team even better isn't a good idea. 4.) Bengals teaming TO with Chad Johnson: having 2 egomaniac Wide Receivers on the same team and caused team chemistry problems to the point that they didn't make the playoffs. See DaleSrFanForever's comments. 5.) NCAA showing special treatment to towards Auburn and Ohio State: I can't say it any better than DaleSrFanForever did. 454. Eric posted: 12.31.2010 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't put Green Bay Packers Special teams because I want to see if the Special Teams coach gets fired after 2 years as a special teams. The Packers have terrible special teams in 2009 and in 2010. That was even before one the offensive lineman on the Patriots almost scored a touchdown on a kickoff return. My racing's top 5 WTF moments: 1.) Nascar Twittter fines: Can't speak better than RR did on this matter. 2.) Formula One not giving Ferrari a harsh enough punishment for team orders. A few years ago F1 promised to punish teams harshly for team orders after what Ferrari pulled. Ferrari decided to do team orders again and got off because the FIA plays favorites with Ferrari and diminishes what ever credibility Formula 1 has left. If I wanted to see an outcome predetermined, I'll be watching professional wrestling. 3.) Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford can't be quiet during the chase. Denny opening his mouth and pissing off Kevin and RCR is never a good idea. Kevin makes Hamlin miss some practice team with Kevin getting back at him during practice. Mike Ford opening his mouth with 2 races to go isn't a good idea since his team never was this close to win a championship before. To make it even worse, Mike Ford didn't fix the damage the 11 car had before it was too late. 4.) Carl Edwards Edwards loses it while Aflac races to the rescue: I can't say it better than DaleSrFanForever. 5.) Mark Martin at Hendrick Motorsports: Mark got screw by the personnel swap with the 88 team after the 2009 season to the make the 88 team better. Now after the 2010 season, Mark gets HMS worst crew chief in his lame duck year for 2011. Mark should have announced his plans to leave Hendrick after 2010 after Kasey signed with Hendrick. The biggest loser is Kasey and Mark now. Kasey is a lame duck at Red Bull. The other thing it does is gives Red Bull a driver to replace Scott Speed. Honorable mentions: Richard Petty Motorsports Saga: Everyone knew that Gillett was hurting for money before this year, but the degree it played out near the end of the season was unexpected with Fenway and Gillett having a pissing match over a soccer team sale. 88 team in the same shop as the 48 team: I don't know how this will pan it and if this doesn't work out, this will be a top 2 WTF moments in racing for 2011. II figured the 24 may not be in the same shop as the 48 after 2010 before the announcement because Jeff Gordon no longer like Jimmie Johnson. I am sure behind closed door Jeff didn't like Jimmie having his pit crew for homestead. 455. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.31.2010 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR Racing top-5 WTF moments: 1) Gordon finally letting out his thoughts at Texas in the Spring that everyone else pretty much shares about JJ always winning. While they're racing for the lead, JJ hits Gordon and afterwards, Gordon goes off on his radio. He had every right to say something, as I would have reacted the same way if someone hit me like that. But I'm sure he now knows how Earnhardt, Wallace and Jarrett all felt 10 years ago when he was beating them. 2) Carl Edwards finally losing it: I think Dale Senior fan said this better than anyone else could. I too was a Carl fan from his rookie year up until this year, letting pretty much all the confrontations and WTF moments he had slide (Dale Jr in '06, Kenseth in '07 and Harvick in '08. I don't include Pocono 2006 because Carl had every right to be mad at Stewart in that race) because he seemed like a cool guy. Hell, I was even willing to let Atlanta slide until he did basically the same thing at Gateway when Brad K merely got into him a bit. That night, I lost respect for him and he earned a spot on my dislike list. You didn't see Gordon doing that to Kenseth at Martinsville, or Johnson to Kurt Busch at Loudon after the latter had bumped the former. 3) Mark Martin's struggles: I'm starting to think his 2009 season was too good to be true, and so far all the evidence points to it. HMS took a lot of Mark's good crew members and reassingned them to the #88 team. Now, they're taking Alan Gustafson and giving him to Gordon, and Mark gets Lance McGrew. I don't think McGrew and Martin will have as good of chemistry as Alan and Mark did. 4) NASCAR's Twitter fines: I think RR hit the head on the nail with this. From a professional standpoint, I understand the concern to maintain a positive image but at the same time, I don't think Newman and Hamlin should have been fined for what they said on Twitter (and I dislike both drivers pretty well). I think NASCAR was just fining them because they were all butthurt. 5) #48 team switching pit crews in the Fall Texas race. They made a smart move by making it for the rest of the season because things would have been a mess if the old crew returned, and they got really lucky that they held on to win the championship. Moves like this usually kill team chemistry and it takes forever to get it with the new guys. If I had to predict any year for JJ to struggle (and by struggle, I mean not win the championship), it would be 2011. 456. Smokefan05 posted: 12.31.2010 - 2:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR WTF moments: 1. fans: Yeah i don't need to explain this one, now your role and shut your mouth. Are you staying or leaving? Make up your ----ing mind. And quit complaining while your at it. -_- 2. Chase: For actually working this year, 3 guys had a shot and only 1 came away with it. 3. "have at it boys": It actually worked. :) 4. JaimeMc: Did anyone honestly he'd have a season like he did? I sure didn't. 5. Jeff Gordon: the 90's guy is still there. Honorable mentions: fans: Yep deserves another shout out. Jermey Mayfield: just go away. NASCAR has won, you have lost just give up and go away. -______- Carl Edwards: Yep, i need to say no more. :P team orders: yeah and everyones thinks NASCAR is corrupt HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FIA is worse than NASCAR by MILES. Non-racing WTFs: NCAA: um, it's just one step below organized crime. And your BCS sucks too, can you say "fixed" and "contrived?" Brett Farve: Can you go away too? i'm sick of seeing your face on ESPN. Micheal Vick: WTF but in a good way. Glad to see him back playing football. :) Butler VS Duke: if the last shot goes in, we have a HUGE upset. happy new year y'all. ^_^ 457. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.31.2010 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a fantastic topic! All these excellent responses. The Nascar mixed messages, Twitter fines, etc. really hurt in the PR battle midway through the year, amidst a low turnout at the Brickyard. Also, I might add this one WTF Moment nobody mentioned: 1. The Ohio State University's President publicly trashed smaller schools like Boise State and TCU in the NCAA by calling them, "Little sisters of the poor." Is it any wonder the BC$ protects the fab four "big" conferences (Big 10, SEC, Pac-10, Big 12) in the "computer" rankings. Case and point: The 2010 Sugar Bowl and Fiesta Bowl match-ups. Why did Florida play Cincinnati when they could have had Boise State in a redemption game. But, the "little sisters of the poor" schools played each other in the Fiesta "segregation" Bowl which proves nothing. Occasionally there are upsets like Boise-Oklahoma and Utah-Alabama, but overall the BC$ is BS! 458. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.31.2010 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "3.) Vikings Trading a 3 round pick to New England for Randy Moss:" I forgot about this one. I thought NE just let him go. Now I remember they got a draft pick from the Vikes, who then dumped him one month later for nothing. The shame of this is the Vikings were really close to being great, but they sold their soul to Brett Favre. "Micheal Vick: WTF but in a good way. Glad to see him back playing football. :)" That is a good one. If you would have told me at the beginning of this year Michael Vick would be one of the more likeable people in sports, I'd have said you're full of it. But he really seems to have turned the page. He seems genuine in his remorse for what he did and has gone out of his way to prevent other people from getting involved in dogfighting. Maybe I'm just naive, but this has been interesting to watch. "Butler VS Duke: if the last shot goes in, we have a HUGE upset." Ugh. Don't remind me. Maybe that's why I wasn't as upset this year when JJ won the Cup. After having to watch dook win the Tourney, I'm immune to everything else now. 459. ii posted: 12.31.2010 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12/28/10: First day no one posted on this page. :| Happy new year 460. potatosalad48 posted: 01.01.2011 - 11:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) happy new year everyone 461. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.01.2011 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) January 1st, 2011... Let's hope for a great year for not just our racing heroes, but for everyone else within the NASCAR community. 462. Eric posted: 01.01.2011 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ohio State University's President should have kept his mouth shout. Congratulations giving TCU extra motivation for beating the Badgers. I was concerned about the Badgers going against TCU going into the Rose Bowl as a person that following the Badgers. 463. Smokefan05 posted: 01.01.2011 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to TCU on beating Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl. BCS can suck it some more. ;D 464. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.01.2011 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love it. I wish I would have watched that game. And yes, it was nice of OSU to give motivation against Wisconsin. Eric, you have every right to be mad. I'd be mad too. I hate it for your Badgers, but it is nice to watch these BC$ apologists eat crow. 465. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.02.2011 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Eric and DSFF! I honestly thought the Rose Bowl would be a blowout for the Badgers, but alas it wasn't.The mighty Big 10 schools that don't play the "little sisters of the poor" lost 5 bowl games on 1/1/11. If Iowa's defense didn't score a pick-6 on Missouri late in their bowl game, the Big 10 would have been shutout. 466. Eric posted: 01.02.2011 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, My younger brother and I opposed the BCS for years. My younger brother even thought TCU should have been in the game for determining who is the champion for college football. My younger brother and I supported a playoff system for a long time. Our problem has been the fact it seems like some of the teams that went against each other 1 and 2 aren't really the top 2 teams of the nation in some of those years and the teams that aren't a major conference aren't getting a better look if they are capable of being a champion like Utah or Boise State for an example. Some of the teams that have weaker schedules like TCU or Boise State is caused by major programs avoiding them. That is where a playoff system would be easier to determine a champion. Despite being a Badger Fan, Wisconsin is known to play cupcake teams for their out of conference schedule. I am pretty sure other Big Ten teams have been doing the same thing. 467. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.02.2011 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TCU's out of conference schedule this past season included Oregon State, Tennessee Tech, Baylor and SMU. That is two in-state rivals, a mid-level Pac 10 team and one "cupcake." Wisconsin had three cupcakes (UNLV, San Jose State and Austin Perry) and a mid-level Pac 10 team (Arizona State) this season. The more ranked teams a team like TCU or Boise State play for their out of conference games, the better their reputation is nationally. Also, TCU's move to the Big East next year will open the scouting market to a larger area. 468. Smokefan05 posted: 01.02.2011 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Going to the big east is TCUs ONLY way to get to the National title game. Which is BS. They should already have a National Title shot but the BSS keeps screwing them over. BSU keeps getting the same treatment. Every conference should have a automatic bid. 469. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2011 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Big 10 is really overrated. My apologies to those who pull for Big 10 teams, but they have a lot of troubles against out of conference teams. They play a very specific style of football, a real throwback to the earlier days of football when it was all about pounding the football, controlling the line of scrimmage, and strength meant more than speed. The problem is most of the rest of the college football teams have gone to speedy athletes who can cover large chunks of the field at once. The result is usually a mismatch. The best example of this is Michigan's infamous loss to App State (a D-II school) in the Big House. With the speed of App State's players and their spread offense, they were able to make up for a HUGE lack of depth as compared to UM. The other good example is Ohio State getting trounced in consecutive BC$ championship games by SEC teams. The Big Ten is simply in its own world, and they get played up and hyped in the national polls as they play each other. Then they play other teams and usually get it handed to them. And one thing I'd like to mention about bad the BC$ sucks: the automatic bids to BC$ bowl games by winners of certain conferences. The Big East and ACC come to mind. I live in ACC country so I am pretty in touch with their teams. Let me tell y'all: The ACC SUCKS in football. We don't have any teams that remotely deserve to play in a major bowl game. Our representitive this year? Va Tech. They lost to James Madison (another D-II school) at home after losing to Boise State in what was basically a home game at the Redskins stadium. And for the Big East, UConn went to a BC$ bowl game and got killed by Oklahoma. The same school that lost two BC$ games they should have won (Boise, WVU), got beat somewhat handily by Tebow's Gators in the championship game, and got totally slaughtered by USC a few years earlier. I just hope Brian France isn't paying attention to this system. He would probably think it is genius and try to implement some form of it to the Cup championship. 470. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.03.2011 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right Smokefan. I've pulled for Boise State since their infamous Fiesta Bowl upset against Oklahoma. That one game was insanely well executed by the Broncos. One missed field goal was the difference for Boise this year. Wait a second, the ACC doesn't suck. People like to rag on the Big East, but since 2006 the Big East has a winning record in bowl conference play. VA Tech is a really solid program year in and year out. The Hokies are guaranteed at least an Orange Bowl bid if they win 9 or 10 games plus the ACC Championship almost every year. I can see TCU taking over the VA Tech role once they enter the Big East Conference. 471. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.04.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 1st WTF Moment of 2011 has arrived... in the form of a question. How did Andrew luck NOT win the Heisman? He is the real deal. $cam Newton is a fraud and a cheat off the field, whereas Luck is an upstanding young citizen. 472. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.04.2011 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. The Orange Bowl was even more of a mismatch than I originally thought. Stanford flat out kicked Va Tech's ass. Jarrettfan, maybe "sucks" wasn't the right word, but there are a ton of schools that deserve to play in the big Bowl games more than teams that get automatic bids just because of their conference. Va Tech did not deserve to be on the same field as Stanford. "The 1st WTF Moment of 2011 has arrived... in the form of a question. How did Andrew luck NOT win the Heisman?" SEC bias. I'm just hoping like hell Luck decides to enter the draft this year and my Panthers can get him. Watching him play last night, all I could do was dream of having him on the team I pull for.For that one touchdown pass, he was standing on the 50 yard line, and threw the ball right to his reciever at the 10 yard line like it was nothing. We need him. 473. Talon64 posted: 01.04.2011 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My 7-9 Seattle Seahawks are in the playoffs, the first sub-.500 team to win their division in the history in the NFL and I'm pretty sure in any of the major North American sports leagues. But whatever, we made the playoffs! Rock on! LOL 474. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.05.2011 - 1:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad the Cincinnati Bengals don't play in the NFC West like Seattle. The re-signing press conference with head coach Marvin Lewis and owner Mike Brown was horrendous. Status quo and circle the wagons here in Cincinnati. I wasn't sure if Brian France got inside the head of Mike Brown since they have about the same amount of business sense. Enough about the hapless Bengals. So what if Ohio State barely beat a second-tier SEC team. One of those "little sisters of the poor" teams beat the Big Ten's co-champion in the Rose Bowl. Overall, the Big Ten saves face against an inferior SEC team. 475. I Seize the Day posted: 01.05.2011 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My 7-9 Seattle Seahawks are in the playoffs, the first sub-.500 team to win their division in the history in the NFL and I'm pretty sure in any of the major North American sports leagues." Thats the equivilent of Dale Earnhardt Jr making the Chase. 476. Smiff_99 posted: 01.05.2011 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, guys, let's knock off the football talk. The Patriots rule. End of discussion ;) Now back to racing........ 477. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.05.2011 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the hell are we gonna talk about until Speed Weeks crank up? Ray Evernham's "feel good" reunion with Hendrick (first of all, there is nothing "feel good" about it, him and Jeff sucked the life out of the sport in the late 90s the way JJ and Chad are doing now. secondly, he will only be helping with other Hendrick business ventures...... or is he? he had to quit ESPN. Rusty and Brad both OWN teams and still get to be on air. Ray is just a "consultant on non racing ventures" and walked away. Hmmmmm) And yes, the Pats are the odds on favorites. They look as good as they did in '07, but unlike '07, they are peaking at the right time. In '07 they started out like a ball of fire, but looked sluggish towards the end of the season, didn't knock anyone's socks off in the playoffs, the lost the Super Bowl to Eli Manning (ouch!). Also unlike '07, they are no longer the most hated team in the NFL thanks to Rex Ryan, Rex Ryan's gigantic ass, Rex Ryan's gigantic mouth, and LaDanian Tomlinson (the most annoying superstar not currently employed by the Bengals). You know what I'd love to see? The Jets beat the Colts (cause I can't stand Peyton and Bill Polian), go to Foxboro in the second round, and lose even worse than they did on that Monday Night "game of the century" with Belichick (somebody whom I'm no fan of) gleefully running up the score, and the cameras cutting to Rex with steam coming out of his ears. And then hopefully they can beat Ben Rothlisfhdksfsadhksfurger cause he is a creep, then he can get a head start on an off season of banging drunken 20 year old college girls. Man, the AFC playoffs are like this year's cha$e. I'm having to pull for a team I normally can't stand (the 48 team and the Pats) cause I hate the other contenders (Hamlin, Harvick, Rex, Ben, Peyton, Polian). Ugh. 478. Smiff_99 posted: 01.05.2011 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, there we go. Evernham. What IS the deal with that? Seems a bit odd to me that Wallace and Daugherty can OWN teams and be on ESPN, but Evernham opts to step down? It's one of two things: Either ESPN is exercising some sort of double standard on Ray and pressured him to leave....OR....Evernham's just WAAAAY classier than Wallace or Daugherty. Which is my assumption. And yes, I also am not going to 'feel good' about his return to Hendrick. The move doesn't really matter anyway. Unless he's directly involved in the shop or on the pit box, I don't really see how he could help them any. Not to mention the fact that I enjoyed the insights he provided for ESPN.....which is something I can't honestly say about some of the other people *cough* Rusty *cough* Brad. And finally, I too shall throw myself into the football mix. Can anybody remember the last time they saw a team with as much depth as the Pats? I mean, seriously. McCourty, Woodhead, Mayo, Branch, Welker, Edelman, Wilfork, Hernandez, Gronkowski......not to mention, Tom Brady. It's insane. And the best thing about Woodhead is.....ole Rexy and the Jets HAD him and let him go. WHOOPS. And yes, DSFF, they look much stronger now than they did in '07 towards the end of that season. Anybody remember the game against the Ravens? If it hadn't been for a penalty on the Ravens, the Pats would have lost. The way I see it, the ONLY way the Pats won't make it to the Super Bowl is if someone's defense can step up and shut them down. And that ain't been done a whole lot this year. I can't think of ONE team's defense (Steelers or anybody else) that can stop them right now. Yes, can happen. But unless somebody gets hurt, it's probably NOT gonna happen. The team is stronger than it's EVER been. P.S.-Let's hold off on calling the Pats the 48 team of football. I know I'm biased, but honestly.....I can't remember the last time I saw or heard Brady act smug, or cocky or anything of that sort. He's a total team player. Johnson (and Knaus) on the other hand, ALWAYS seem to have this smug seeming way about them. Chad moreso than Jimmie. Not to mention the fact that they bailed on their pit crew after that SAME crew won them 4 previous titles. Talk about a dick move. 479. ii posted: 01.05.2011 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Okay, guys, let's knock off the football talk. The Patriots rule. End of discussion ;)" What would we talk about? Junior Johnson's new KNPSE team? I agree. They have been on a roll, and they're my pick for this year, hands down. 480. I Seize the Day posted: 01.05.2011 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tom Brady is the 48 of NFL. He is so damn perfect, it pisses me off. They both are married to supermodels, yet they aren't as talented as Peyton Manning and Tony Stewart. 481. Smiff_99 posted: 01.06.2011 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pats fan or not, I'd take Brady over Manning any day. Their playoff records tell the tale. 482. I Seize the Day posted: 01.06.2011 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Pats fan or not, I'd take Brady over Manning any day. Their playoff records tell the tale. " Shee-yut, if they didn't reset the standings at the end of the year, like they do in NASCAR, Manning would have more titles than Johnson, I mean Brady. Jk, I am targeting the people who bitch about the Chase. I hate it too, but it is what is, deal wit. 483. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.06.2011 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @post 480: Bingo! That is one thing that has always fascinated me about any sport: How certain supremely talented athletes can be, for the most part, totally owned by rivals who, although undoubtably talented, don't measure up in overall skills. There is a great parallel between Brady/Manning and JJ/Smoke. There are some differences, namely Manning is a playoff choker and Stewart just can't keep his damn head on his shoulders. But Manning has a better skill set than Brady and Smoke is undeniably more talented behind the wheel than JJ. Yet Brady and JJ each have more championship trophies than their rival. Peyton and Smoke both have one major season victory in which they beat their rival to win the title, Manning in '06 and Tony in '05, but those years look more and more like aberrations as time passes. Probably the best example of this is Bill Russell's ownership of Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt should have won the championship every year he was in the league, but it is Russell with 11 championships, and like Peyton and Stewart, has one shining moment against his rival in '67, but otherwise always lost in the playoffs to Russell. Although I don't think Russell slept with 20,000 women, so Wilt has that over Bill. 484. Anonymous posted: 01.06.2011 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what is totally, mind-blowingly stupid? People who think team sports like football come down to the play of a single player. Really, "Manning is a playoff choker"? He isn't even on the field for half the game. So obviously when the Colts lose in the playoffs it's because of his shoddy play alone (despite the fact that there is no statistical evidence of this through his career). And obviously when the Patriots win it's because of the god-like play of Tom Brady. Not the coaches calling the plays, not the defenses, not the 10 other players on the field with the offense. "That is one thing that has always fascinated me about any sport: How certain supremely talented athletes can be, for the most part, totally owned by rivals who, although undoubtably talented, don't measure up in overall skills." You want to know why? Because of TEAMS. Get that word through your head you moron, it's because of their TEAMS. Jimmie Johnson alone isn't responsible for winning his titles. Jesus Christ, are people really so dumb and narrow-minded that they think these sports are so simple that they come down to a single person? I can't help but feeling pity for that level of ignorance. I mean, wow...... 485. Smiff_99 posted: 01.06.2011 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, but in my opinion, the talent gap between JJ and Stewart is far greater than the gap between Brady and Manning. Here's a visual. Brady...Manning JJ............................Stewart 486. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.06.2011 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was nice to see Jimmie Johnson race in IROC with Stewart and see the raw driving talent gap between the two. Tony Stewart is an excellent racer with some flaws (mental errors, etc.) However, Johnson excels at putting himself in good positions throughout races. I would rate Stewart and Gordon higher than Johnson on the overall complete racer scale, but Jimmie is certainly the best closer at the end of races than Tony or Jeff. The Pats, please... Atlanta and Pittsburgh might be able to beat New England, that's about it. Don't crown the Super Bowl Champs just yet as the Pats will be exposed next week someway, somehow. Remember the Pats-Ravens game in late '07 exposed the defense against the run. The 48 team of the NFL, they are not. 487. Talon64 posted: 01.06.2011 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was nice to see Jimmie Johnson race in IROC with Stewart and see the raw driving talent gap between the two." Don't forget Jimmie Johnson's stints in the Race of Champions and how bad he was there. In 2002 Colin Edwards single-handedly won the Nations Cup for the USA despite Jeff Gordon and Jimmie's worst efforts, and Jimmie got blown away in the first rounds of the Drivers and Nations Cup in 2007. Carl Edwards made it to the semifinals of the Drivers Cup in 2008, beating Jaime Alguesuari and Michael Schumacher along the way, but got blown out in 2010. BTW the ROC is why I think Travis Pastrana is awesome, in 2006 when Jimmie and Scott Speed got hurt and couldn't compete Travis was the lone driver for the USA but went to the finals single-handedly. 488. Lucie posted: 01.06.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can always tell the people who only recently started watching football, or don't know jack about football, by the way they view Brady and Manning. In other words, the ones who think Brady is much better are either new or just ignorant. Brady was nowhere near as statistically great as Manning until 2007, yet he had won 3 Super Bowls by that time. But you also need to remember the Patriots won two of those Super Bowls on very fortuitous field goals near the end. Brady did manage those game effectively, but to say he won it by himself would be an incredibly gross-oversimplification, and unfair to the contribution of his teammates. Still, if those kicks go the other way, you never know, Brady might be 1-3 in the Super Bowl. Manning, as statistically great as he was, and still is, has had some crushing playoff defeats and bad luck that were not his fault. Look at the 05 playoff game against the Steelers (missed field goal at the end to tie), and the 08 playoff game against the Chargers (Chargers win coin toss in overtime, kick field goal to win). Again, these games come down to 1 or 2 plays that Manning has nothing to do with. Yet another of Manning's playoff losses came in a snowy game in New England, one that his receivers and most of his team played terribly in due to the unfamiliar conditions. Not to mention Bill Belichik is a far better coach than Dungy and Caldwell, and the Patriots defense has always been better than the Colts. It's easy to see how, while both Brady and Manning are two of probably the top 4 QB's of all-time, the Patriots have come out on the better end of a few close playoff games. Having watched both closely for basically a decade, I can't really decide which is better. Both excel in so many areas, and each one has strengths that the other doesn't. When I think of the games all-time great QB's, there's Montana, Brady, and Manning crowding the top of the list. 489. Cooper posted: 01.06.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And then hopefully they can beat Ben Rothlisfhdksfsadhksfurger cause he is a creep, then he can get a head start on an off season of banging drunken 20 year old college girls." Heh don't talk about my boy like that and he's also getting engaged. He proposed to his girlfriend over the christmas holidays... 490. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.06.2011 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 100% Right Lucie. Both QBs know how to manage a game in its latter stages, both have the arm strength, ability to mount late comebacks, etc. Its receivers, kickers, O-Line men, etc. who have made or broken games in the playoffs and Super Bowls for both teams. The bottom line is Brady and Manning are about even. Sorry DSFF, but Luck is staying in Palo Alto. Carolina might be stuck with Clauson. However, Vince Young might be available if Tennessee cuts him. 491. DetroitRocks posted: 01.06.2011 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love how a woman (Lucie - if i'm wrong, I apologize!) seems to know more about football than someone calling themselves DaleSrFanForever (who I'm guessing is at least 30, male, and lives in a rural area). Kinda hilarious, you go Lucie! If you really want to compare Manning and Brady, just go to pro-football-reference.com - some people here could do themselves a big favor and study that site. There you can see that statistically, each one is incredibly similar when it comes to the playoffs. Take out the two worst games for each and they both have thrown over 4000 yards, 25+ TD's, around a dozen INT's, with QB ratings in the mid 80's. Like the other guy said, what it comes down to is coaching, the team around them, a little luck, and of course the defense. But if you can't appreciate that both of them are two of the greatest QB's to play the game, and feel privileged that we've been able to see them battle each other in so many great games, then you just aren't a fan of American football. And just so the moderator doesn't block this post for being so off-topic, on the subject of racing, I get the feeling that this years Daytona 500 is going to be a strange one. As in, something weird is going to happen like no cautions, or a record number of cautions, or some sort of controversial call on NASCAR's part is going to affect the outcome. Something strange is going to make it memorable, that's all I'm saying. Only a few weeks away, can't wait! 492. Smokefan05 posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is difference between Tom "a$$head" Brady and Jimmie Johnson. Tom Brady has been beating for championships. Jimmie Johnson hasn't......yet. (yes i insulted Tom Brady. He is from my state *Michigan we rule :P* but i hate his guts. I hope someone hits him hard enough to get that cockyiness out of him.) 493. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let the DSFF suicide watch begin. On a personal note, I am happy for Andrew Luck staying in college. College is a wonderful experience, one that can't be redone. Take it from me and my personal experience. Even if you do go back to college after graduating to get a different degree (as I am doing now), it just isn't the same as the first time around. This is his only chance to do this. He has the rest of his life to be a pro. I think he'll be very happy he made this decision. But as a Panthers fan, this is a sledgehammer to the head. We NEED a QB in the worst possible way. 494. I Seize the Day posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon, congrats on getting mentionted by a NASCAR writer on twitter. 495. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here's a visual. Brady...Manning JJ............................Stewart" I agree with that. I believe the gap between Smoke and JJ is larger than the gap between Manning and Brady (although that might be a little too wide for Tony and JJ, but just a little bit too wide). @post 484: Of course it is a team effort, but in the Colts case one member of that team doesn't perform as well as he does in the regular season. Look at 2005, the defense held the Steelers to 21 points in the Colts own dome, cause a huge swing in momentum with the Bettis goal line fumble, and Peyton still couldn't get it done. In last year's Super Bowl, the defense only gave up 24 points to the Saints (Peyton gave them 7 with that back breaking pick-six). And in the Chargers game in San Diego, Peyton just stood there once his called play broke down, looking like a deer in the headlights, and took a sack at the 5 yard line allowing the Bolts to tie the game with a short field and send it to overtime. Those are things he doesn't do in the regular season. He just doesn't make the plays in the playoffs when they count like Brady and Big Ben do. @post 488. Those are some good points. But I disagree. Yes, they have caught some good breaks (I can't believe you didn't mention the infamous Tuck Rule game in the snow). But the Pats got those late field goals because Brady put them in position with calm cool precision on late drives. I remember watching their first Super Bowl win against the Rams when I wasn't entirely sure who Tom Brady even was. I remember thinking "OK, this is where the young guy will fall apart". I was wrong. And the Colts/Steelers '05 game: Yes, that arrogant, worthless punk Vanderjack choked cause he is a sack of shit. But the Colts caught two really good breaks in that game. First was the Polomalu (sp?) interception where the officials ruled he never had control even though he caught the ball, fell to the ground, and rolled around, then got up, THEN dropped it. Then the aforementioned Bettis fumble when the Steelers were 1 yard from putting the game away, and giving the Colts new life when they had been left for dead second earlier. And one last point about that '05 playoff game and Peyton and Big Ben. I can't stand Ben personally. But the reason Bettis' fumble didn't go back for a Colts touchdown is that Ben ran back, spun around a few times, and dove for that Colts guy's leg, tripping him up just enough so he fell down, technically meaning a "tackle". Compare that to Peyton in last year's Super Bowl when he threw that interception that put them away. He made such a minimal effort to go after the CB, he was blatently blocked in the back after the intercepter was past him, and nobody gave a shit. If he is going to give that poor of an effort, he didn't deserve a penalty. 496. Talon64 posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're not the only Panthers I know who's ready to kill himself. There's always Donovan McNabb, Vince Young, Matt Flynn based off of one career start, trading down in the draft to get another one of the QB's available... 497. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.06.2011 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tom Brady has been beating for championships. Jimmie Johnson hasn't......yet." Dude, your guy beat him head to head in '05. He didn't just beat JJ that year, he got inside his head (like JJ did to Denny this year), and just beat JJ into submission. Riding around at Homestead with a clearly softening tire, he wouldn't pit cause he knew he couldn't give any ground to Tony, so he limped around hoping for a caution until the tire finally blew. Remember, after the Charlotte race, they were actually tied, but JJ tried to block Tony at Martinsville the next week, got bumped, whined like a little girl, then lost points at Atlanta and Phoenix. Tony flat out took it JJ that year. And worst of all, Kurt Busch beat him in '04. With a slim lead almost identical to Denny's this year heading into Homestead, Kurt Busch of all people, seriously, KURT BUSCH kept his cool when his wheel came off, and in previous races like Kansas when he spun out all alone, at Charlotte when he was in two wrecks not of his doing, at Phoenix when he got spun trying to avoid another wreck, and at Darlington when he had a horrible car, but didn't hit the wall like he usually does in those situations. In the end he beat JJ head to head. That is looking more and more like a fluke with every year that passes. Seriously, the phrase "Kurt Busch, former Cup Champion" just sounds wrong. "he's also getting engaged. He proposed to his girlfriend over the christmas holidays..." Holy shit!! She said yes? 498. Smokefan05 posted: 01.06.2011 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ I mean during his championship run. Yeah, 04 and 05 he lost but from 06 on word he hasn't been beaten. He could have been beaten this year but we all know how that worked out. And Tom Brady has missed the playoffs, Jimmie under the Chase format hasn't missed a single one. 499. Eric posted: 01.06.2011 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see the Packers trading Matt Flynn. The only player the packers could be trading is one of their linebackers. The Packers recently signed one their linebackers to a new contract and they have spent a lot of money on that position included those that are injured. While Rodgers is a great Quarterback, having a decent backup QB is a must. Rodgers had 2 concussions this season and missed one game. The way the NFL is with concussions now, Brett Favre wouldn't have had his streak of 297 games started in a row. That is where having a good back up QB comes in. The Owners want 18 regular season games, and that will mean more potential for injuries including the QB position. 500. Anonymous posted: 01.06.2011 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes, they have caught some good breaks (I can't believe you didn't mention the infamous Tuck Rule game in the snow). But the Pats got those late field goals because Brady put them in position with calm cool precision on late drives." You mean like Manning did in the 05 game against the Steelers? The only difference is the kicker missed the field goal. And Manning didn't even get a chance to answer back in overtime in the game against the Chargers. Just like your man-crush on Jimmie Johnson causes you to look at everything with bias, so does your man-crush on Jimmie Johnson. You have absolutely no capability to view anything objectively. And you don't seem to have even the most basic understanding of the game of football. At least you conceded that there IS a defensive side of the ball, but you still fail hard because you seem to think Manning is the one and only player on offense. You know that situation you mention where Manning got sacked? I bet he wishes he had an OFFENSIVE LINE to protect him. Maybe the Colts should put more than one player on the field when they have the ball, right? Everything is so simple and black and white to morons like you. Sometimes I envy you, but then I remember that having a brain capable of complex thought comes in handy. 501. Smokefan05 posted: 01.07.2011 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The Owners want 18 regular season games, and that will mean more potential for injuries including the QB position." And they want more money. The Owners want to get richer by having 2 more games. Yet with 2 more games there is more chance for guys getting hurt. Too me there is a two-face statement about wanting more games: 1. they want to protect players (the new rules and everything) 2. Having 2 more games gives more chance of injury. This is where (to me) the NFL will trip over itself. You say you want to protect your players with all these rules, yet you want 2 more games. *sighs* And just for the record it has been shown by other sports that "lockouts" are possilbe, MLB, NBA and recently the NHL have had "lockouts." Not even the NFL is immune to it. *steps off soap box* (if i sound anti-NFL, it's because i am. ;P) 502. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.07.2011 - 1:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JJ............................Stewart" I don't think the talent gap is THAT big, but there is still a gap nonetheless. Stewart's talent level is higher than JJ's (although JJ is probably around 3rd-6th in terms of most talented drivers currently in Cup. I consider at the very least, Stewart and Gordon to have more overall driving talent, and you can make a case for Kyle Busch as well, even though he hasn't shown it stat-wise), but JJ's team has everything put together that they need in order to win a championship, and all JJ has to do is not lose his cool and stay focused, which he has. 503. Smiff_99 posted: 01.07.2011 - 9:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ladies and gentlemen.......football or not.........we have hit 500 posts. I can see 600 before the Shootout gets here. 504. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.07.2011 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) An 18 game season would be a disaster. The NFL is already getting thin at season's end as it is. Between injuries, and teams who have no shot at the playoffs mailing it in earlier and earlier, adding two more games will hurt. Our last regular season primetime game this year? The Seahawks vs the Rams to see who will win the weakest division race in football history. Leave it at 16. Take a lesson from NASCAR, more does not equal better. As far as you, Mr. Anonymous, first of all, get a name. Secondly, my point is that Peyton doesn't play nearly as well in the playoffs as he does in the regular season where he is usually bullet proof (except this year). One of the winningest QBs ever has a .500 record in the playoffs. In 10 playoff appearances, he has 6 first round exits. And thirdly, no team puts more in the hands of one players than the Colts do for Peyton. Since we are discussing the '05 Steelers game ad nauseum, remember late in the game when the head coach, Tony "I'm Holier Than Thou" Dungy sent in the punt team, and Peyton waved them off? If he's gonna be given that much responsibility, he needs to be prepared to take a lot of blame. "The only difference is the kicker missed the field goal." No, the difference between the '05 Steelers game and the Pats Super Bowl against the Rams, their Super Bowl against my Panthers (still heart wrenching to think about), and OT of the Tuck Rule game is that in those 3 Pats games, the score was tied, so a missed FG didn't automatically lose the game for them. In '05, the Colts were losing. 505. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.07.2011 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Manning has had to carry his team more this year because of injuries on both sides of the ball. I too hope the NFL does the right thing by sticking with 16 games. On an completely unrelated note, Michael Waltrip will attempt the Daytona 500! Losers everywhere rejoice!! I hope he wrecks in the Gatorade Duel. 506. Talon64 posted: 01.07.2011 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can see 600 before the Shootout gets here." We might get there BECAUSE of the Shootout. They've changed the rules again, adding ROTY winners from the past 10 years so big names like Kahne and JPM (international audience) are in while a big sponsor like Home Depot gets in as well. Unfortunately that also means 2010 Sprint Cup Series ROTY Kevin Conway is in the Budweiser Shootout. Again, I think I threw up in my mouth a little. 507. 18fan posted: 01.07.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Conway would've been in under last year's rules as the defending ROTY, but NASCAR makes yet another Bud Shootout change because of Logano. 508. Cooper posted: 01.07.2011 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why can't it just be 2010 pole winners? LOL. Stupid. 509. 18fan posted: 01.07.2011 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, its because Budweiser still sponsors the race but doesn't sponsor the pole award. 510. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.08.2011 - 12:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have nothing against Logano, but it's funny how NASCAR keeps changing around stuff because of him. It's like they're trying to pave his path to success. Conway being in the Shootout is a straight-up joke. 511. Smokefan05 posted: 01.08.2011 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's not going to change the racing, so i don't know why people are complaning. -_-; 512. I Seize the Day posted: 01.08.2011 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smoke you are right, the racing won't change (although Conway will be a moving roadblock that could present some problems). However, I think people are complaining more about the amount of drivers in the race. Today it is more about being succesfull at one point in your career as opposed to being fast the previous year. Thats my prob with it anyway. 513. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2011 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why doesn't NASCAR quit insulting us and just add the following provision to every exhibition race: "The car sponsored by The Home Depot gets an automatic bid every time." They don't give a shit about past ROYs and we know that. We know that Home Depot gives NASCAR a lot of money in sponsorship and NASCAR doesnt want to lose that golden ticket. Stop acting like we're all idiots. I think NASCAR is favoring Home Depot more than Logano. TV coverage favors Logano because they have been touting him as the next big thing since he was 15 and they want to look smart. But I don't think NASCAR really favors Logano except for the fact he is the Home Depot's driver. 514. Smokefan05 posted: 01.08.2011 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Oh and they didn't EVER favor Tony when he was a Home Depot guy? 515. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2011 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell yeah they favored Tony!! He got away with far worse behavior than drivers like Harvick and Spencer who got suspended for lesser offenses. He punched a photographer for Pete's sake! He did to Brian Vickers exactly what Spencer did to Kurt Busch less than one year earlier, and got a slap on the wrist. Tony had the double whammy of being the Home Depot guy and the driver of the Coca Cola drivers (another huge booster of NASCAR). Of course he is still Coke's main guy, and has been sponsored by Old Spice, Office Depot, and now Mobil 1, all official NASCAR sponsors. 516. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2011 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW, I don't blame Peyton for this loss. That was some really crappy special teams play by the Colts. And what about Seattle? I'm glad I don't bet on sports. I'd have gotten killed today. 517. Eric posted: 01.09.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ravens winning the game isn't a shocker. The Chiefs are limited what they could do in the passing game like Brett Favre in his first two years in Green Bay except Matt Cassel has better running backs than Brett had in his early years in Green Bay. Brett Favre in his first two years in Green Bay had Sterling Sharpe, a tight end and running backs to pass to. The Packers didn't have a true number 2 Wide receiver at the time. Mark Clayton was washed up at the time he spent a year in Green Bay back in 1993. I have the Patriots beating the Jets and the Steelers beating the Ravens in a close game. I feel better with Ben as a QB than John Flacco. I forget that the Seahawks won against the Bears earlier during the season. Chicago and that means the Seahawks have a chance to win against them next week. I have the Bears beating the Seahawks,but I wouldn't be shocked the Seahawks win. Now Brett Favre fans can be quiet about Rodgers not winning a playoff game. The Falcons won against the Packers earlier on the season on a last second field goal. I expect the Packers and Falcons game be a very close game as a result. I have the Packers win the game, but it could go either way. 518. I Seize the Day posted: 01.09.2011 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone have some Tony Stewart diecast's they would like to sell? Im only looking at dropping 20-30, so if you need that kind of money, lets talk. 519. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.10.2011 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its interesting how people on this forum can escape the reality of the news given the incident in Tuscon, Arizona and talk football, racing, or merchandise. Sites such as Racing Reference allow anonymous posters (Hi, I'm Martin by the way) the freedom to post whatever we want. Thank you Racing Reference! I know the web and blogs/open forums in particular, have bore the brunt of criticism from other media for "inflaming" the discourse. I'm sure some believe the old dictum, "Never discuss religion and or politics in public settings" applies here on this site, but I for one don't. Its alright to be passionate or apathetic about government and public officials. However, I feel as somebody who interned several times in state government, insinuating violence and or using dehumanizing rhetoric on any "side" is completely unacceptable in the U.S. A nation born of revolution, tempered by conciliation. Off the soapbox... 520. Talon64 posted: 01.10.2011 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BTW, I don't blame Peyton for this loss. That was some really crappy special teams play by the Colts. And what about Seattle? I'm glad I don't bet on sports. I'd have gotten killed today." Why would you NOT bet on the Seahawks when the line was Saints by 11? 11 points against the home team, especially a home team that plays in a place like Qwest Field? I'm sure most people didn't bet on them thinking they'd win, just that they wouldn't get blown out like that. I heard, supposedly, that the crowd noise was so loud during Marshawn Lynch's 67 yard miracle run, that had me yelling "GO GO GO GO GO GOOOOOOOOOOOO" at the television screen the whole way, that it actually registered on the Richter scale. Yep, Seahawks fans caused a small tremor. I've never been more happier in my life to be one myself. 521. Eric posted: 01.10.2011 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I saw Marshawn Lynch run live on Saturday. The truth is I think the defense of the Saints was partly responsible for that play by their poor tackling. One of the missed tackles was cause by ex Packer Darren Sharper. Darren is washed up in 2010 after he had surgery during the off season because he lost speed after the surgery. Darren Sharper never has been a great tackler and was known taking bad angles to tackle going back to his days as a Packer. 522. Talon64 posted: 01.10.2011 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) O'Reilly Raceway Park, which used to be Indianapolis Raceway Park, is no more! Long live Lucas Oil Raceway! IRP to ORP to LOR. 523. Eric posted: 01.10.2011 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, I have aware of the incident in Tuscon, Arizona since Saturday afternoon and the reality of it struck me at the time I read it online Saturday afternoon. I never like talking about politics or religion online. Those two subjects have cause World War 3 in a couple forums I go online. I also wanted to get all the information before forming a complete opinion on the shooting anyway. 524. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.10.2011 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That Lynch run was incredible. Yeah, he got helped by bad tackling from the Saints, but still, EIGHT defenders hand their hands or arms on him (yes, even counting that one guy he threw off him like a sack of garbage, every time I watch that play, when that part happens, I yell GET OFF ME!!!!!!) and still kept running. It's moments like that which remind me why I watch sports, for fun as hell moments like that. BTW, there is a video on YouTube of that play with the music from the old Super Mario Brothers game when Mario would get that Star and become invincible and you could just run through all the enemies and they'd bounce off you. It is great. Talon, you are right. It would have been a smart bet to take Seattle and the 11 points. I was just under the impression that the Seahawks were really bad. I should have realized they had lots of injuries throughout the season, like Hasselback, and they are somewhat healthy again. JarrettFan, I definitely know about the tragedy in Arizona. It just gives me a sick feeling thinking about the victims and their families and the sorrow they are going through. My prayers are with them. It really makes me sick hearing about all these red flags and incidents from the shooter's past. Why weren't interventions taken then? It's like the Va Tech shooter. If somebody is exhibiting psychotic or disturbing behavior, get them medicated. Otherwise you are like those people from Va Tech or this guy's school saying "Wow, I always knew he was crazy, but...... But nothing. It's too late. 525. Smokefan05 posted: 01.11.2011 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well congrats to Aubern on winning the BSS National Championship game. 526. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.11.2011 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder how much money $cam Newton's father paid to get him into Auburn in 2010? I'm glad I didn't watch that illegitimate "BCS National Championship" game. Too much hype. After all, a fraudulent quarterback helped his team win a fraudulent so-called "national title" game. The BCS National Championship game will always have an SEC team in it. To be honest, the most recent great national title game was Texas-USC at the Rose Bowl in 2005. 527. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.11.2011 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to hear that the original Indianapolis Raceway Park isn't going away and only going through another name change. That's one of the tracks I look most forward to during every Nationwide season. 528. Matt G posted: 01.11.2011 - 11:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the rumors about drivers only being able to earn points in one of Nascar's top three series (Cup, Nationwide, and Truck)starting next season are true, I'm going to be very happy. 529. Smiff_99 posted: 01.11.2011 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Absolutely! I can't wait 'til the end of the Nationwide season when, for the first time in 6 years, we'll have a NW only champion. Granted, the cup guys are still gonna come in and win 95% of the races, but this is a step in the right direction in terms of getting the series where it needs to be. 530. Eric posted: 01.11.2011 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a step in the right direction for the Nationwide and Truck series. This will step cup drivers from doing all the races for the Nationwide series. This might make Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch a little more focus on the side. The next thing they should do is limit the amount of cup drivers in each nationwide or truck race. There was some Nationwide races last year that had 10 to 20 cup regulars. That needs to be cut down in half. 531. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.11.2011 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interestingly teams can compete for the owner's championship in Nationwide and Truck without running for the driver's championship. This is excellent news which will help the Nationwide (Busch) Series reclaim its own identity. Bravo Nascar! 532. potatosalad48 posted: 01.11.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nascar finally does something right! Drivers must now choose to get points for Cup, Nwide or Truck, but not all 3! YES! 533. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2011 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm very happy to hear about this. I'd heard rumors about making the drivers choose one series to get points in, but knowing NASCAR, I kinda figured they would back out. Luckily I was wrong. We'll actually get a true NWide champion this year. Of course this raises some questions. If they don't get the points, what happens to them? If the Cup drivers take the top 8 positions (like usually happens), does the 9th place guy get 1st place points? If an NWide driver finishes 4 spots higher than another NWide driver, with 3 Cup guys in between them, is he credited with 1 spot or 4 spots better in points? Basically, do the Cup guy's points in an NWide race disappear in the driver's standings, or go to the next NWide guy? I know Brad is bummed about this. On Twitter he mentioned in this one week alone he got the flu, found out he was ineligible for the Bud Shootout, and got DQed from the NWide title. But this will work out best for him. He needs to quit worrying about the NWide title and worry about getting up to speed in Penske's Cup cars. Forget this minor league shit. I know it sucks that, had this been done in 2008, he'd have two NWide championships ('08 and '09), yet if they'd waited one year later, he could have got a second NWide title this year. But that won't mean anything to him if he starts having success in Cup. Now he will have to put the Blue Deuce first on his priority list. He will be better off for it. 534. Smokefan05 posted: 01.11.2011 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nascar finally does something right!" NASCAR does do some things right, its fan perception that they do everything wrong. I too am glad about this. I wounder if we'll see guys like Carl, Kyle, Brad race for points in N'wide and forget about Cup. I wouldn't put it past Carl or Kyle. Brad i think is a little bit different. (i hope for the record that all 3 decide to focus on Cup and stop screwing around in the N'wide series. For Carl and Kyle, beating Jimmie is the most IMPORTANT thing they should focus on.) 535. Talon64 posted: 01.11.2011 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the last decade, 2001-2010, Cup drivers won 242 of 345 Nationwide races, a 72.5% winning % for Cup drivers in what's supposed to be NASCAR's 2nd tier series. By Cup drivers I mean driver who were driving full time in Cup when they won their Nationwide races, so Kyle Busch's 5 wins in 2004 as an NNS rookie wouldn't count. I don't see that percentage improving any time soon even with this new rule, they need to continue to push to reduce Cup drivers' involvement in Nationwide to an appropriate level. If Cup drivers only won half the races each season I'd be thrilled; from 2001 to 2005 Cup guys won 85 of 170 races, exactly 50% of the races. 2006 to 2010, 157 of 175 races for an 89.7% winning %. 536. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2011 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's hard to say how this will affect NWide races, but I lean towards agreeing with Talon. First of all, I seriously doubt Kyle, Carl, or Brad will forego Cup points. Their Cup sponsors, the ones paying the really big bills, would never go for that. Secondly, I still see Cup guys winning the lion's share of the races. Look at Kyle. He wasn't going for the championship in '08 or '10 but he still plane hopped for some races even though he wasn't in the title hunt. Until NASCAR puts a hard cap for frivers outside their selected Series, it won't look that different. The biggest thing is that we will have a true NWide points battle and champion. This is exciting because it will give those drivers and teams some extra exposure that they need and it will prevent certain Cup drivers from mentally taxing themselves thinking about two championships, while JJ puts all his efforts towards one. This doesn't apply to Kyle Busch, he runs himself crazy no matter what, trying to get 200 "total NASCAR wins", even though less than 1/4 of them are currently Cup wins (for his "historic" 24 win 2010 season, just 3 came in Cup, 12.5% of his wins) But it's a good step int he right direction. The next step needs to be the hard cap. 537. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.12.2011 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad that Cup drivers are no longer allowed to compete for points in more than one series. Maybe the Cup guys will focus solely on Cup now, but I still don't see it preventing them from running many of the races. We already know that Brad Kez and Carl will be running the full NW schedule this season regardless, and Kyle Busch and Harvick will likely run a majority of the events as well. I agree with Talon64, if Cup drivers were only winning half of the races each season, that wouldn't even be so bad since in the 90's, that's about how many races a Cup driver would win while the (then) Busch regulars would win the rest of the races. I'm already excited about the fact that there will finally be a Nationwide driver as champion for the first time since 2005. 538. Anonymous posted: 01.12.2011 - 8:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This doesn't apply to Kyle Busch, he runs himself crazy no matter what, trying to get 200 "total NASCAR wins", even though less than 1/4 of them are currently Cup wins " At least he can win Cup races, unlike your boy Earnhardt. It's so dumb when people try to act like 19 Cup wins is nothing. Once again, it is currently more than your boy Earnhardt. And I forgot that Sr. never ran any Busch races. I'm not sure it's possible for you to be any more of a hypocritical moron. You've maxed out already. 539. I Seize the Day posted: 01.12.2011 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At least he can win Cup races, unlike your boy Earnhardt. It's so dumb when people try to act like 19 Cup wins is nothing. Once again, it is currently more than your boy Earnhardt. And I forgot that Sr. never ran any Busch races. I'm not sure it's possible for you to be any more of a hypocritical moron. You've maxed out already." I hope you are joking brah, or just trying to start shit. Listen, I am a Busch fan and don't pull for Junior, but this may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard. You are dissing Junior while completely contradicting your statement about 19 wins being nothing. Junior has what, 18? Makes no sense Jones. I will repeat my question from earlier - anyone wanna sell some Stewart 1/24 diecasts for a good price? Maybe willing to trade 540. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2011 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey genius, if you knew anything about me, you'd know I am anything but a fan of June. He really puts me off big time. He is not "my boy" by any stretch of the imagination. So don't call me a "hypcritical moron" when you don't even realize that June is one of my top 5 guys to rag on. "And I forgot that Sr. never ran any Busch races." Yes he ran a selected number of Busch races in his own equipment built in a little shop on his own property (he had quit running Busch races long before the Garage Mahal was built). Back then most Cup drivers ran their own Busch cars as a way for supplemental income in an era when drivers didn't get paid nearly what they are making now. It was a way of securing their future. Notice Dale quit running Busch races after '94. This was the year merchandise sales, and the cut the drivers received, skyrocketed (thanks to the foresight of Teresa Earnhardt). This was also the last year before they started running the new Monte Carlos, officially changing NASCAR forever ensuring that aero was everything and old setups weren't worth anything. Nice try "Anonymous". Better luck next time. 541. Talon64 posted: 01.12.2011 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Keselowski's going to make a run at ROTY in 2011. With 3 ARCA wins and 1 top ten in 60 career Nationwide starts he's vastly more qualified to run for ROTY in Cup than Kevin Conway was last year. This says more about Conway than anything though. 542. ii posted: 01.12.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Brian Keselowski's going to make a run at ROTY in 2011." Yeah, at this time 10 months from now we'll be laughing that he didn't make a start. 543. potatosalad48 posted: 01.12.2011 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Keselowski better hope he can buy some owner points otherwise he could be the 1st ROTY not to make a single race 544. I Seize the Day posted: 01.12.2011 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) he will make plenty of races, there will be races this year where barely 40 cars show up. 545. Anonymous posted: 01.13.2011 - 6:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hope you are joking brah, or just trying to start shit. Listen, I am a Busch fan and don't pull for Junior, but this may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard. You are dissing Junior while completely contradicting your statement about 19 wins being nothing. Junior has what, 18? Makes no sense Jones." No brah, I aint trying to start nuthing. Dont be hatin. Junior hasn won hardly any races the last several years, and dats a fact, know what I'm sayin? But brah, dont u have a hacky sack tournament to get to over on the quad? I herd from dis honey it was gunna be tottal killah. "Hey genius, if you knew anything about me, you'd know I am anything but a fan of June. He really puts me off big time. He is not "my boy" by any stretch of the imagination. So don't call me a "hypcritical moron" when you don't even realize that June is one of my top 5 guys to rag on." Translation: I used to like Earnhardt Jr, but then he stopped winning so much and since I have no backbone or loyalty, I had to distance myself from him because I think the drivers you root for reflects on you as a person, and I don't want anyone to think I'm a loser. A Sr fan who never rooted for Jr? Yeah right. "Yes he ran a selected number of Busch races in his own equipment built in a little shop on his own property (he had quit running Busch races long before the Garage Mahal was built). Back then most Cup drivers ran their own Busch cars as a way for supplemental income in an era when drivers didn't get paid nearly what they are making now." Excuses, excuses, excuses. Poor little Earnhardt, he had only made over 12 million in Cup by 1994 (including more than a million a year every year since 1986, and mind you that money would be worth even more today), he must have had it tough! On that kind of income I can see why he was living paycheck to paycheck and had to run Busch races out of necessity. I mean the guy was just a good ole' boy like all of us, scraping to get by. He didn't even want to win those Busch races, he would have rather been at home raising his family, because we all know how great of a father he was! I repeat: hypocrite. You think the motivation, or quality of equipment makes a difference? Bull****. You think Kyle Busch honestly doesn't want to win all of the Cup races he enters and the title every year? Then you are a moron. But it must be nice to live in your fantasy world where you can make up whatever excuse you want to justify your conflicting beliefs or prejudices. 546. I Seize the Day posted: 01.13.2011 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No brah, I aint trying to start nuthing. Dont be hatin. Junior hasn won hardly any races the last several years, and dats a fact, know what I'm sayin? But brah, dont u have a hacky sack tournament to get to over on the quad? I herd from dis honey it was gunna be tottal killah. " I like you, your a funny guy 547. JJ6InARow posted: 01.13.2011 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Poor little Earnhardt, he had only made over 12 million in Cup by 1994 (including more than a million a year every year since 1986, and mind you that money would be worth even more today)" Well drivers don't get to keep all of their winnings, but it's still a decent percentage, and couple that with the fact that they earn a driver salary that would be more than a comfortable wage even on it's own, I don't think he was in any desperate need for money by the time the 90s rolled around. Winning titles helps too, they keep a greater portion of that money than their individual race earnings. So I agree, trying to say that Earnhardt only ran Busch races out of some need for cash is disingenuous at best. "Translation: I used to like Earnhardt Jr, but then he stopped winning so much and since I have no backbone or loyalty, I had to distance myself from him because I think the drivers you root for reflects on you as a person, and I don't want anyone to think I'm a loser." This is a fairly common phenomenon amongst sports fans, and normal people really. Some just don't see the point in rooting for a team that loses. There's always the guy living in the crappy sports town that goes against the local crappy team just to feel better about themselves and piss off the other fans. Even during political elections, there are a lot of people who will only vote for someone that they think is going to win, regardless of what they believe, because some people just like to support a winner. Now granted some are going to look at my username and assume I am a frontrunner too, but believe me I live in Cincinnati and I am a diehard Bengals/Reds supporter. I like Johnson because I have family in El Cajon, California, and even went to the spring California race back in 2002 during a family reunion and had the privilege of witnessing his first career win. My family was rooting for him all race, and it was really cool to see him win. Couple that with the Boone baseball family connection between El Cajon and the Cincinnati Reds, and it just seemed natural to keep supporting Johnson. Never in a million years did I think he'd win 5 in a row, though! Sometimes I feel like it's karma repaying me for the last 20 years of support for the Cincinnati sports teams. It's been rough. You can almost count the number of winning seasons for both the Bengals and reds since 1991 on 1 hand. 548. Smiff_99 posted: 01.13.2011 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, rumor has it that Trevor bayne could run up to as many as 17 cup races for the Wood Brothers (with full technical support from Roush). If he runs just 10 or 15 races, he'll probably score the ROTY title by a landslide, regardless of how many races Brian Keselowski runs. 549. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2011 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Translation: I used to like Earnhardt Jr, but then he stopped winning so much and since I have no backbone or loyalty, I had to distance myself from him because I think the drivers you root for reflects on you as a person, and I don't want anyone to think I'm a loser." Translation: You're just throwing derogatory stuff out there about somebody you obviously know nothing about. I haven't really liked Jr since 2000. When he came out with his hat on backwards all the time, dyed his hair blonde at the height of the Slim Shady era, etc, I saw nothing I really liked in him. I sort of pulled for him in 2000 just cause he is Dale's son, and June's happiness made Dale happy. Mostly, especially after Big E's death, I pulled for DEI. But I never really liked June personally. And I've really disliked him ever since 2007 when he decided to drag DEI and Teresa (Dale's soulmate) through the mud to justify him leaving DEI. If he wanted to leave DEI cause he thought he could have more success elsewhere (what a joke that turned out to be), that's fine. Just say "I feel I need to move on, thanks to everyone at DEI for standing by me no matter what for all these years". But he had to make Teresa NASCAR's #1 villain. Since then? Shit on him. And one other thing. You say I only pull for the people who win a lot. Again, if you knew anything about me, or read some of my recent posts here, you'd know that is total bullshit. My favorite driver? Brad Keselowski (1 Cup win, just had a disasterous 2010 season). I also like Martin Truex (1 Cup win in 5 seasons), David Reutimann (2 wins, although in all fairness he's done that in second rate equipment), Kasey Kahne (4 wins in the last 3 seasons, though has also had bad equipment), Jamie McMurray (not just because of his recent success, but because he actually appreciates his recent success and hasn't let it go to his head like most) and Matt Kenseth (2 wins in the last 3 seasons). You know who I hate? Kyle Busch (19 wins in 6 seasons), Carl Edwards (recently had a 9 win season), Denny Hamlin (12 wins in the last year and a half), Kevin Harvick (just contended for the championship), Tony Stewart (2 time champ, lock for the HOF), and JPM (F1 champ, not that I care). So don't ever say I only pull for successful drivers. "A Sr fan who never rooted for Jr? Yeah right." Again, I never really cared for June personally, I pulled for him at times because of his Dad. I was more pulling for Dale Earnhardt's son and driver. "Excuses, excuses, excuses. Poor little Earnhardt, he had only made over 12 million in Cup by 1994 (including more than a million a year every year since 1986, and mind you that money would be worth even more today), he must have had it tough!" Where did I say he had it tough? I'm saying that back then the extra money they made running in Busch actually meant something. And that $12 million is race purse earnings. It goes straight to the owner who usually gives 40-50% to the driver. Look, Dale definitely didn't have it tough. But he had a big lake house to pay for. Besides, I've never had a problem with a Cup driver running less than half the Busch races. Again, if you had been here any length of time, you'd know that. So quit acting like you know me, cause you obviously don't know shit about me. "You think the motivation, or quality of equipment makes a difference?" Uh.........yeah!! They don't just make a difference, THEY ARE EVERYTHING!!! "You think Kyle Busch honestly doesn't want to win all of the Cup races he enters and the title every year?" Wanting it and actually doing what it takes to get it are two different things(for example, in Kyle's case, forcing himself to grow up, narrowing his focus considerably, realizing the world doesn't revolve around him). Of course Kyle WANTS to, but he either isn't willing to make the necessary changes, or isn't smart enough to realize his attitude and insistance on running every minor league race is holding him back. Meanwhile Jimmie Johnson, a driver that does not have Kyle's level of natural talent (I'm not sure anyone does, not even Tony) keeps his cool, only worries about being Cup champion in the racing world, and doesn't make his crew's lives miserable. The result? JJ: 5, Kyle: 0. 550. I Seize the Day posted: 01.13.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JJ put his crew out of a job, what an evil villian 551. Talon64 posted: 01.13.2011 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not necessarily, in the ROTY point system rookies get a point for every race they ATTEMPT to qualify for. Whether they actually make the race or not they get a point. 10 points goes to the highest finishing rookie each race, 9 to 2nd, so that's only a 1 point difference each race. Top ten finishes get you bonus points but the Wood Brothers haven't had a top 10 since 2008. There's also points for where the rookies finish in the standings, highest gets 10, 2nd gets 9, so on and so on. But that'd be only 1 point difference if Trevor Bayne could make all 17 races the #21 car attempts and get the max 10 points, but likely without any top tens. 170 points, plus 17 for the attempts, means 187 points. Highest finishing rookie in the standings gets him 10 more so 197. Brian could win it if he attempts all 36 races for 36 points there, and then make at least 17 races. 153 points there, then the 36 and then 9 for being the 2nd best rookie in the standings gets him 198. But then there's end of season panel that awards points based on the following: "Conduct with NASCAR officials in the garage and pit areas; conduct and awareness on track; personal appearance and relationship with the media." John Andretti scored more than Danny O'Quinn Jr. during the season for ROTY in Nationwide in 2006 but the panel practically gave O'Quinn ROTY and rightfully so since John had over 300 career Cup starts at the time. I'm sure they'd favor Bayne over Keselowski. Of course Bayne could miss some races, or Keselowski's attempt at the season doesn't make it past the 1/3rd mark, or Bayne and the Wood Brothers doesn't even run for ROTY. There's a chance we could have NO ROTY in 2011 if Keselowski doesn't make 8 attempts in the first 20 races and Bayne doesn't go for it. tldr; NASCAR ROTY rules are really f##### up. 552. Anonymous posted: 01.13.2011 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Translation: You're just throwing derogatory stuff out there about somebody you obviously know nothing about. I haven't really liked Jr since 2000. When he came out with his hat on backwards all the time, dyed his hair blonde at the height of the Slim Shady era, etc, I saw nothing I really liked in him. I sort of pulled for him in 2000 just cause he is Dale's son, and June's happiness made Dale happy. Mostly, especially after Big E's death, I pulled for DEI. But I never really liked June personally. And I've really disliked him ever since 2007 when he decided to drag DEI and Teresa (Dale's soulmate) through the mud to justify him leaving DEI. If he wanted to leave DEI cause he thought he could have more success elsewhere (what a joke that turned out to be), that's fine. Just say "I feel I need to move on, thanks to everyone at DEI for standing by me no matter what for all these years". But he had to make Teresa NASCAR's #1 villain. Since then? Shit on him." Talk about revisionist history. I don't believe any of that for a second. "Look, Dale definitely didn't have it tough. But he had a big lake house to pay for." Man, it must be tough when the government FORCES you to buy a big lake house. If only we lived in a country where people could spend their money as they please. "Besides, I've never had a problem with a Cup driver running less than half the Busch races." You say that now, but let me throw out a scenario. Half of the Cup drivers decide to run the first half of the Nationwide schedule, minus 1 randomly chosen race (and it isn't the same race for all of them). The other half run the second half, again, minus 1 race. The top 10 of every Nationwide race through an entire season is swept by Cup drivers. Still feel alright about it? It still fits within your criteria. "B-b-but that's an extreme scenario!" Yeah, well you said it was alright. Or is it only OK if they don't win too much, or or if only so many Cup drivers do it at a time? Come on, where are your arbitrary boundaries that make what Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards. and your boy-toy Keselowski do wrong, but what your eternal love Dale Earnhardt did alright? What if Dale Earnhardt won every Busch race he entered from 1988 to 1992, meaning he'd win more or tie what Kyle Busch did this year? What if Dale won all those races, and Mark Martin won all the others? That's still alright, isn't it? Maybe you're starting to see my point. You either are fine with a Cup driver running the Nationwide series as much as they want, or you don't think they should run in it AT ALL. The same seemingly ridiculous scenario I cooked up still applies even if you said it's alright for a Cup driver to run only 5 Nationwide races. Cup drivers could still sweep every single race. 553. lordlowe posted: 01.13.2011 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right on DalesrfanForever right on I don't Like Jr either and think he is extremely overrated I would like to continue to bash Little E but my comments would probably get deleted from this page 554. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.14.2011 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, rumor has it that Trevor bayne could run up to as many as 17 cup races for the Wood Brothers (with full technical support from Roush)." I'd be kind of surprised, but glad at the same time if Trevor got that many races in the #21. He needs experience now more than anything else. I think Bayne could have some success in Cup given his talent if he ends up in the right situation. The best we can hope for when speaking of Brian Kez's attempt at ROTY is that he actually makes a few races. I've never had that much confidence in his ability, even though he's driven field filler stuff since he came to the three top NASCAR series. Still, I like him. 555. I Seize the Day posted: 01.14.2011 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor....BAYNE!!!! What an awesome last name. Bayne will be greater than Joey Logano, but right below a Greg Biffle. 556. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.14.2011 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't believe any of that for a second." Of course you don't. It totally ruins the fantasy for you. "You say that now, but let me throw out a scenario. Half of the Cup drivers decide to run the first half of the Nationwide schedule, minus 1 randomly chosen race (and it isn't the same race for all of them). The other half run the second half, again, minus 1 race. The top 10 of every Nationwide race through an entire season is swept by Cup drivers. Still feel alright about it?" I have posted about this before. I'll try to figure out which page it was on. Basically I said NASCAR needs to mandate which races the Cup guys can race. I said 15 races, and I even split it up so ISC and SMI could have 7 races apiece (with independently owned Dover taking one) otherwise Bruton Smith would start World War III. Sorry bud, you'll have to find someone else to pick a fight with. I'm not who you think I am. 557. Cooper posted: 01.14.2011 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The whole thing is stupid. If a guy wants to run for two championships, let him run for two championships, just put a handicap on the double duty drivers. All double duty drivers, automatically start at the rear. This allows the nationwide drivers to run up front, and have the faster drivers and cars charge up through the field. It would be entertaining and beneficial. So instead of the eventual champion winning with an average finish of 15th, you'll at least have a deserved champion. Anyone with any rebuttals against my suggestion? 558. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.14.2011 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous, Go to the 2010 NWide page and then go to the first Gateway page (the Carl is officially a psychopath race) and read post #165 and the Atlanta page and read post #18. 559. Anonymous posted: 01.14.2011 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Of course you don't. It totally ruins the fantasy for you." You mean the fantasy where Dale Earnhardt was forced to buy a big house and run Busch races on the side to supplement his income? "I have posted about this before. I'll try to figure out which page it was on. Basically I said NASCAR needs to mandate which races the Cup guys can race." Got it, so you don't care if Cup drivers ruin half of the Nationwide season. I don't see why it matters to have them run any races, but I guess you have to come up with some ridiculous excuse for being able to hate Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards and still live with the fact that the overrated Dale Earnhardt did the same s***. 560. Matt G posted: 01.15.2011 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you honestly believe Dale Earnhardt was overrated, you lose pretty much all credability. 561. Eric posted: 01.16.2011 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Earnhardt Sr. wasn't overrated. Dale Earnhardt Sr. won races despite not always have the best equipment. You could accuse Dale of being a dirty driver and I am willing to admit, but he didn't win all his 76 races by wrecking people out of the way or rattling cages. Dale was a great drafter, had great car control, excellent short track driver, and underrated road course driver. Dale Sr. had every thing a car owner wanted out a driver at Dale's peak despite not being a great qualifier. Dale Sr. won a race at Bristol in 1985 after he lost power steering early in the race. That is classic Dale Earnhardt Sr. That race showed Dale could take cars that have no business winning a race to victory lane despite have major problems like power Steering failure at a track that is physically demanding. Not a lot of Drivers in the last 30 years are not able to win races after they lost their power steering. Dale won a Championship big boxer cup cars for in his 1980 championship and small cars for the remaining 6 championships. That proved it isn't all car. 562. Smokefan05 posted: 01.16.2011 - 2:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You could accuse Dale of being a dirty driver and I am willing to admit" Junior Miller is more dirty than Dale ever was. If Dale was faster, he'd find a way to pass you cleanly (unless you wouldn't let him by then well the chrome horn was coming). To me Junior Miller would wreck you without a second thought. Maybe he is a "legend" in the mods but if he is such a "legend" why does he wreck everyone who is in his way, especially the Myers brothers. (who i admit one of them is as much a poop head as Miller is) Was Dale dirty? Well Bristol 1999 would be a strong case for it. :P If anyone conciders Dale a dirty driver for using the chrome horn then i guess guys like Tony, Robby, JJ, JG, Baby Busch, Brad K. are all dirty for using the front bumper as while. 563. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.16.2011 - 9:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent post Eric (no. 561) That is why I believe Earnhardt Sr. is a better racer/competitor than Jimmie Johnson, although Johnson is likely equal or win more championships. "Dale Earnhardt Sr. won races despite not always have the best equipment. You could accuse Dale of being a dirty driver and I am willing to admit, but he didn't win all his 76 races by wrecking people out of the way or rattling cages. Dale was a great drafter, had great car control, excellent short track driver, and underrated road course driver." Some drivers like Gordon, Petty and Johnson have for the most part, had the best equipment during their peaks. Sr. had a horsepower disadvantage many years as DSFF argued many times. 564. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2011 - 9:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as the "Dale was dirty" stuff, go read my comments on the Bristol '99 page for my take on that. As far as Junior Miller and the Myers Brothers, I'd like to thank them for making all of us who live in the Winston-Salem, NC area look like a bunch of backwards idiots on that reality show. "You mean the fantasy where Dale Earnhardt was forced to buy a big house and run Busch races on the side to supplement his income?" Dale saw the opportunity to buy his dream place in the 80s. A house on Lake Norman and a lot of land where he could go hunting, start a big farm with cattle and chickens, install a lake and fill it with catfish, and basically live like he always dreamed of living: racing the best on the weekends, beating them, then coming home to his ranch and either farming, hunting, fishing, just relaxing by the lake, or sending his ill behaved son to military school. To make sure he could do this, he saw an opportunity to make some bonus cash on Saturdays with a Busch team that he had been running since the mid 70s when he was trying to get noticed and put in a good Winston Cup car (it happened). Once the money being poured in NASCAR skyrocketed through better TV contracts, more nationally recognized sponsors jumping aboard, and most importantly the souvenier boom, Dale quit racing any Busch races after 1994. Do I need to draw you a diagram? And again, I've never had an issue with the way it used to be. The way the old Busch Series worked, Cup drivers could only feasibly compete in about half the races. I'm OK with them running half the races cause that helps the Busch drivers. The problem comes when they run 30 or more races, turing the Series into Cup lite. Sponsors understandably gravitate towards the known drivers, the ones guaranteed to get TV time. Not only does this allow them to have better equipment, mechanics, and pit crews, they become accustomed to the NWide cars negating the advantage the Busch drivers used to have. The big thing that needs to happen is to quit making all but 4 or 5 races companion events. It used to be only half the races were companion events. The rest of the schedule was run at smaller bullrings like Hickory, Myrtle Beach, South Boston, the Nashville Fairgrounds, and Orange County. Make 15 of the Busch races non companion events, and we'll see how many drivers want to plane hop that much. I'm sure a few would try (Carl, Kyle, Brad), but eventually they'd be so worn out, they'd pass out in the middle of a 500 mile race towards the end of the season. Rework the NWide schedule. I like the direction they are moving with more road courses in Wisconsin and Montreal (along with the companion event at The Glen). Add a race at Road America, Mid Ohio, and Limerock Park and maybe even Laguna Seca (I know its really narrow, but so is Montreal). Some fo the best races in the past years in any Series were the NWide road races. This year's Montreal race was AWESOME!!! More importanly, put them on weekends where the Cup guys are off at some cookie cutter track in another part of the country. Run Road Atlanta while Cup is at one of the Kansas races. Run Mid-Ohio while Cup is at Fontana. Run Limerock Park during one of Cup's Texas weekends. Run Laguna Seca (if possible) during Cup's Chicago weekend. And I love the two Iowa races, that track is awesome. Run one during one of the Charlotte weekends and the other during one of Martinsville's weekends (one hell of a short track weekend!). This will wear the Cup guys out. They already mention how hard it is running the Sears Point weekend when they have to travel all the way from California to Wisconsin. Add more of these big travel weekends? They'll give up (except Kyle, whose Cup results will suffer, but then again, they already are suffereing). This will allow more drivers to be developed properly, then moved to Cup when they are ready and provide Cup some desperately needed fresh blood. 565. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2011 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just to let you guys know, Athlon Sports has their 2011 preview magazine out now. IMO, they have always had the best take on NASCAR. They talk about things almost every other NASCAR media source doesn't want to talk about. They have a section titled "What's wrong with Junior?" that is a good read. It talks a lot about how he has let his confidence disappear. I think they brush over some of the more important factors like him spreading himself too thin. I also think they put too much blame on McGrew for their inability to communicate. June has had issues communicating with Tony Jr, Pete Rondeau, Steve Hmiel, and now McGrew. Lance has never had these issues, and was even able to communicate with Kyle Busch. I think that needs to be talked about more. But overall they talked about him in a way most are afraid to. There is also an excellent interview with Brad Keselowski that provides a lot of insight on him. I disagree with his explanation of why Cup guys running the full NWide is actually good for NWide, but I like when he points out that in every NASCAR popularity poll, his popular rating is highest among the die hard NASCAR fans that have been watching for a while and see through the media bullshit. He makes no excuses for his awful Cup season, just saying what I have said all along: they had no chemistry and no speed. Nobody's fault, it just never clicked. I also like that they picked up on the fact that Harvick always seems to step it up during contract years and they cut through the fairy tale of him and Childress coming back together. The truth is once Shell/Pennzoil bailed, he had little choice but to return to RCR. Shell was his bargaining chip, one he planned to take somewhere else, but then lost it to his hated rival Kurt Busch. If Shell would have gone with him, and another team taken him in, he would have left Richard in .00009 seconds. And it would have been a HUGE mistake. Childress is about the only owner willing to put up with Kevin's bullshit (other than Gibbs of course). He feels a huge affection towards Kevin for the incredible way he lifted the #3/29 team and all of RCR in 2001 by stepping in that car and doing an outstanding job while Richard and the other longtime employees were reeling emotionally. Losing Dale was bad enough, if that car would have struggled, that might have been too much. Richard never forgot that and has treating Kevin like royalty ever since, even when Kevin was being a royal ass, which happens a LOT. For Kevin to act the way he has acted behind the scenes is bullshit. Being a good soldier when things are going well, throwing everyone under the bus when things aren't. You're not gonna have a good year every year (unless you are Jimmie Johnson). Sometimes you have to suck it up. Kevin never has. But he provided RCR a HUGE emotional lift in '01, and Richard never forgot. Anyways, pick up Athlon's 2011 preview. It is worth it. 566. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2011 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One other thing, according to reports Tony Stewart went to Australia to run some sprint races and got into a fight with the track owner leading to him being questioned by police. Congrats Smoke, you have now shown your ass in both Hemispheres. 567. I Seize the Day posted: 01.16.2011 - 11:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, at least he aint vanilla 568. Eric posted: 01.16.2011 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Lance McGrew didn't crew chief Kyle Busch on the Cup side. Kyle had Alan Gustafson as his cup crew chief from 2005 to 2007. Lance only was Kyle Busch's Crew chief in the Busch Series in 2004 after being a championship winning crew chief with Brian Vickers on the Nationwide side. Lance was the crew chief for Brian Vickers on the cup side from 2005 to 2006 after being promoted from the Busch series. 569. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.16.2011 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You sole my thoughts DaleSrFanForever! I could kiss you, if I wasn't a Midwestern white male living in a red state. "The big thing that needs to happen is to quit making all but 4 or 5 races companion events. It used to be only half the races were companion events. The rest of the schedule was run at smaller bullrings like Hickory, Myrtle Beach, South Boston, the Nashville Fairgrounds, and Orange County. Make 15 of the Busch races non companion events, and we'll see how many drivers want to plane hop that much. I'm sure a few would try (Carl, Kyle, Brad), but eventually they'd be so worn out, they'd pass out in the middle of a 500 mile race towards the end of the season. Rework the NWide schedule. I like the direction they are moving with more road courses in Wisconsin and Montreal (along with the companion event at The Glen). Add a race at Road America, Mid Ohio, and Limerock Park and maybe even Laguna Seca (I know its really narrow, but so is Montreal). Some fo the best races in the past years in any Series were the NWide road races. This year's Montreal race was AWESOME!!! More importanly, put them on weekends where the Cup guys are off at some cookie cutter track in another part of the country. Run Road Atlanta while Cup is at one of the Kansas races. Run Mid-Ohio while Cup is at Fontana. Run Limerock Park during one of Cup's Texas weekends. Run Laguna Seca (if possible) during Cup's Chicago weekend. And I love the two Iowa races, that track is awesome. Run one during one of the Charlotte weekends and the other during one of Martinsville's weekends (one hell of a short track weekend!)." One of the best posts of the year! 570. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.16.2011 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #567: I used to not like Tony (from around 2006-2008 I rooted for him to have a DNF every week), but for the most part he doesn't make an ass of himself publically as much, and that's good enough for me to at least respect him nowadays. The same goes for Kurt Busch. I agree about the NW schedule. It needs more non-companion Cup weekends for sure. I bet Kyle, Carl and Brad Kez won't enjoy plane-hopping for long when a lot of the NW races will be far away from the Cup tracks. Wait scratch that, LOL. They probably will at first, but eventually tire out after about a year. 571. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lance only was Kyle Busch's Crew chief in the Busch Series in 2004" I know. I should have mentioned that. I'm glad you pointed that out. The point I was trying to make is that through that one year, him and Kyle seemed to communicate well. So you have one guy who has a history of long history of bad communication with crew chiefs (except Tony Sr who would have beaten his ass), and one crew chief who seemed to get along well with everyone, even the tempermental ones. "I could kiss you, if I wasn't a Midwestern white male living in a red state." Lol. I know how that goes. I live in a state that is usually red, although our vote did go to Obama in '08. BTW, if you ever think the cha$e and BC$ systems are screwed up (and they are) just think about how stupid our system is for electing our president. But I'm glad you like my ideas for fixing the NWide Series. I'm aware it would result in a short term revenue loss, but it would be best for the sport overall in the long term. There has to be a line so that the newer Busch guys can get that valuable experience of racing against Cup guys and measuring themselves against the best, but not have them totally take over the Series. Ricky Craven said it best during an NWide telecast last year. He raced Busch in the early 90s when guys like Dale Earnhardt, Mark Martin, Darrell Waltrip, Harry Gant, etc were running the companion races. He said he liked racing those guys, but was glad he didn't have to every week. That is how it should be. "but for the most part he doesn't make an ass of himself publically as much, and that's good enough for me to at least respect him nowadays." He has settled down from where he was, I guess owning a team will do that to you, but he still has mind bending moments. But it has been a big (albeit slow) improvement. 572. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2011 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some brief thoughts on tonight's Pats-Jets game: -Wow! Was I wrong or what! -Why did NE let John Fox coach this game? (anyone who has followed the Panthers for the last few years and watched this game knows what I'm talking about) -Were it not for NE's spying, would they have ANY titles? -Holy shit was I wrong! -Belichick does remember about a little defensive strategy called "blitzing" right? -Do you realize Big Ben has the inside track for his third Super Bowl ring in just 7 seasons? -All Brady/Belichick and Johnson/Knaus comparisons are totally illegitimate now. Compare JJ and Chad's response to Mike Ford's trash talking to NE's lethargic effort against a Jets team that trash talked them for a solid week. -Holy @#$%^&* shit was I wrong! 573. Talon64 posted: 01.17.2011 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Seahawks win a playoff game and the Jets knock off the Pats. What a great NFL playoffs. Anyways, it looks like NASCAR is going to totally overhaul the point system. No more big numbers in the 100's, just 43 points for the win down to 1 point for 43rd. With bonus points for winning and for leading the most laps, meaning winning a race could net you as much as 49 points vs. 42 for 2nd. Here's all the stuff I've already done in figuring out how different (or not different) this is from the old system (taken from my Twitter account, @Talon64 /shameless plug) The minimum difference in points between 1st and 2nd is currently 190-180, giving 2nd place 94.7% of the points that 1st earns. The minimum under the rumored 43-to-1 system is 44-42 (if bonus point for win is just 1). 2nd would get 95.5% of 1st place points. As for maximums, current is 195-170 (87.2%), while the maximum for 43-to-1 COULD be 49-42 (85.7%). As far as winning, no difference. Current system, without bonus points, difference from 1st to 11th is 190-134 (70.5%). New system, (44-46)-33 (75%-71.7%). #NASCAR This is from someone else, but under old system a 1st place finish and last place finish would score 229 points, equal to two 16th place finishes. Under possible new system, win+last would be 46 points and equal to two 21st place finishes. So winning would be even less significant than it is now. But how would've this impacted the championship in 2010? For the Chase Hamlin would've gone into Homestead with 347 points, Jimmie 342 and Harvick 341. After Homestead Jimmie would've had 384 points, Harvick 382 and Hamlin 377. With Hamlin choking it would've come down to Johnson and Harvick, with Harvick only needing to beat Johnson by 2 positions on the track to win the championship. Honestly the percentages aren't too different from the old system, but I want winning to matter more and this new system would do nothing to help that. 574. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2011 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This new proposed system doesn't really change anything. What's the point? If anything, consistency will be rewarded even more than before, unless they make some radical bonus point system. At least with the current system, there was a 5 point dropoff in the Top 5, followed by a 4 point fall for the rest of the Top 10, then 3 points the rest of the way. This is just a confusing waste of time. They need to put all this focus and energy on the on track racing. We are all used to this pints system, it has been in place for 35 years. Just leave it alone. 575. 18fan posted: 01.17.2011 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR needs to stop trying to change the way they do things and just screw it up more (this if they do it and the chase). 576. Smokefan05 posted: 01.18.2011 - 1:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This is just a confusing waste of time." 43 points for 1st, minus one point for every place below that until you reach last. How is that confusing? It's simple. And last time i checked, the KISS rule is what NASCAR should be using according to fans, so NASCAR is listening to them. And since NASCAR got such heat for making what would have a "death nail in the coffin move" by "fixing and contriving" the Chase more, they *might* leave it at 12 guys in the Chase and have 2 the most winnest drivers enter in also. (having the top 10 locked in and have the guys with most wins be the other 2 in) This is simple and yet it's being twisted around like it usually is. typical -_-; 577. Sean posted: 01.18.2011 - 2:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm someone who's always wanted a points system that rewards winning and domination more, and this simply by definition makes the champion whoever has the best average finish, which is boring. The 1975-present points system was already way too biased towards consistency (Matt Kenseth this year finishing fifth in points? He's a good driver and all but he had more like an 11th place season.) I'm guessing if they go to 43-1 there won't be any bonus points at all, which means it will be straight average finish. As bad as the old points system was and as much as it stressed consistency way too much (mainly by having the lower positions score points, and too small gaps per position, when really only the top 20-25 drivers should score points; this would also keep people from bringing wrecked cars back onto the track, thereby preventing stupid retaliatory bullshit; pick your own favorite incident as an example). This makes it even more based on consistency and I like it less. I know the NASCAR fan mentality seems to be that champions are always decided on consistency and that's how it's been and that's how it should be, but I happen to think that's wrong. I do NOT think the champion should be whoever won the most races each season. I don't for instance think Kenseth deserved in '02, Newman in '03, or Kahne in '06. But I do think there needs to be a much larger percentage gap between the top positions and some positions scoring 0 points. Bill Elliott sure as hell should have won in '85 and Jeff Gordon sure as hell should have won in '96. No doubt in my mind about those. The points system I mentioned a few months ago, which I still like: 200-160-130-115-100-90-80-70-60-50-45-40-35-30-25-22-19-16-13-10-8-6-4-2-1 for the top 25, 10 points for the pole, 2 points for each 10% of a race led (so leading 50 laps at Bristol = 9 laps at Watkins Glen = 20 laps at Daytona = 2 points). I don't think the current system was that complex (most complex part was the chase and that's where any confusion would set in), and I don't think what I suggested is that complex either aside from the bonus points. Although I hate systems that are so heavily biased towards consistency (and points racing, so guys like Bowyer and Kenseth frequently steal higher positions than they deserve due to stroking) I'm more annoyed that NASCAR's selling point is about keeping it simple, implying that the 1975-2003 Latford system wasn't simple (which it very much was compared to the funky points systems before it). The implication there is very condescending: that NASCAR fans couldn't understand even a basic system, and that offends me more than the proposed system itself (which I also hate). Perhaps my gaps between positions are a little too dramatic, but I feel second place needs to score at most 80% of first place points, fifth place at most 60%, and tenth place at most 40%. That will still reflect consistency and the points order won't change that much, but it will more reflect dominance and have people actually fighting for wins. If you think my proposed system is way too dramatic, there are others who are far more extreme than I am - Matt McLaughlin, the Frontstretch writer, wants a points system where the top five positions get 1000, 500, 300, 200, 100, which even I find ridiculous gaps. But a real points system that takes a few baby steps in that direction would encourage people to fight for wins more. NASCAR needs to get with the program and join the rest of the racing world. IndyCar has second place scoring 80% of the winner's points and has better championship battles every season (it could also be that the season is shorter, or that all the Penske and Ganassi teams there are essentially equal...) Oh, and no chase of course. 578. Brett Keisel's Beard posted: 01.18.2011 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whatever nascar does, people bitch. It is basically the same points system, just way less confusing. It appeals to non-fans who have always thought the points system is confusing. Good move 579. Cooper posted: 01.18.2011 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Point system is fine currently the way it is. Please no more changes NASCAR. I don't think France is even doing the changes for a reason, I just think he's bored. 580. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.18.2011 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "43 points for 1st, minus one point for every place below that until you reach last. How is that confusing?" That is a fair question. Allow me to clarify. You are right, the system itself isn't confusing. It's just that we have been so accustomed to the 175 point scale for so long, we are going to glance at a driver with a 32 point lead and initially think "Wow, this is close!", then realize he really isn't all that close. I just think NASCAR has gone through so much change lately, they should just leave some things be. I do like taking the Top 10 as they are, then giving the next two spots to the driver with the most wins. I was afraid they were gonna go ahead with the 15 man field. I must say, that is one step in the right direction. Of course the best step would be eliminating the cha$e. "2 points for each 10% of a race led (so leading 50 laps at Bristol = 9 laps at Watkins Glen = 20 laps at Daytona = 2 points)." I love it. I've always hated the 5 points for one lap led crap. Give these guys incentive to run up front and battle throughout the race. If NASCAR insists on doing gimmicky crap (and they do insist), do it to make the races themselves more exciting. 581. Smokefan05 posted: 01.18.2011 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If NASCAR insists on doing gimmicky crap (and they do insist), do it to make the races themselves more exciting." Yeah because the fans want it more exciting. The average american has a attention span of 11 mins. And most NASCAR fans are americans, so yeah NASCAR do things to keep fans attention. Maybe that is the reason for debris cautions. Here is something people need to think about: Cart used this system 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 3 2 1 The system that NASCAR is proposing isn't to far from that. And it can be easily tweaked to making winning worth more. And the current system F1 uses works (although that system rewards winning more). But i'd still rather have a champ decided without points. With or without the Chase. 582. Sean posted: 01.18.2011 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Cart used this system...The system that NASCAR is proposing isn't to far from that" First off, you got CART's points system wrong. It was 20-16-14-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. That doesn't sound very different, but second place got 80% of the winner's points in CART, not 90%, as you had. NASCAR meanwhile had a proportion of at minimum 91.9% (170 to 185), and 100% in some cases (180 to 180, when the second-place finisher led the most laps). Even if NASCAR had more exciting races than CART in that era, CART's points system was far better at encouraging winning. It was also superior in another sense: only the top 12 scored points (in a field that was usually between 22 and 28 cars). Thus there was no reason for wrecked cars to return to the track, one of the things that has always made NASCAR a circus in my mind, and drivers/teams are punished far less harshly for DNFs or being injured for races (in most other points systems, Davey Allison in 1993 and Ernie Irvan in 1994 would have been WAY higher than they were for their impressive partial seasons). CART's points system was far superior and in fact was one of my models. And how would you have a championship without points? How would you do it? Make it based on winnings like golf where whoever wins the Daytona 500 wins (a scary prospect, that, given how pretty much anyone can get lucky and win that race.) 583. Smokefan05 posted: 01.18.2011 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I copyied what i posted from another forum, i guess who ever posted it doesn't know anything about the system. :P Average finish, most wins (through a whole season or with the Chase), elmination, anything that doesn't envolve points to decide who is champ. However, if NASCAR where to put in a point system like what CART had, then i'd get it. I (unlike others) is going to give the new system a chance to see how it works. I could give an honest opinion but i'm keeping it too myself. 584. Anonymous posted: 01.18.2011 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan05, I agree with you that there shouldn't be any race fans at all and all leave Nascar at once since no race fans know what they want. That what you said in your top WTF moments in racing. 585. Smiff_99 posted: 01.19.2011 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With this new system they're considering, they should still award the same 10 point bonus (towards the chase) for every win, Because then guys would be busting ass for those precious 10 point bonuses, because with the new points scale, 10 points would be a hell of a lot more significant. Seems simple enough. Maybe a 1 point bonus for a pole and a 3 point bonus for leading the most laps. 586. Smokefan05 posted: 01.19.2011 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I agree with you that there shouldn't be any race fans at all and all leave Nascar at once since no race fans know what they want. That what you said in your top WTF moments in racing." I'm fine with fans giving opinions (freedom of speech), but don't complain for sake of complaining. Nothing gets done. To me fans don't know what they want, even when they ask for it and NASCAR 'grants the wish.' It isn't enough. I have figured something out: when the fans want something and NASCAR grants it. Then *IF* it isn't done to what the fans want "exactly", NASCAR automatically wrong for doing "that" way. I'm i wrong or i'm i right? But the bashing of NASCAR has gotten to the point of being childish: now "we" are calling Brian France names, because we think he is an idiot. Only 5 year olds call other people names, it happens on here but with adult under-tones. :P Atleast on here it can be constructive and have "college like atmosphere." *sometimes* :P Right now the SPEED boards is a hive of people on a murderous rampage and negative drivel. So i'm staying away from there. (like anyone will miss me) Long story short: I'm fine with giving opinions but say it enough to get your point across and move on. *gets off soap box* 587. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.19.2011 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh boy. Steve Wallace will be in the Daytona 500 with a guaranteed starting spot thanks to Sam Hornish's points from last year. He can't even compete in NWide, how is he getting a Cup ride in the 500? Oh yeah, he's Rusty's kid. 588. New 14&88 Fan posted: 01.19.2011 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh boy. Steve Wallace will be in the Daytona 500 with a guaranteed starting spot thanks to Sam Hornish's points from last year. He can't even compete in NWide, how is he getting a Cup ride in the 500? Oh yeah, he's Rusty's kid." At least we now know who'll cause the big one, nepotism at its finest. 589. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.19.2011 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh boy. Steve Wallace will be in the Daytona 500 with a guaranteed starting spot thanks to Sam Hornish's points from last year. He can't even compete in NWide, how is he getting a Cup ride in the 500? Oh yeah, he's Rusty's kid." Yep. That's moving up the ladder due to having a famous father at its finest. 590. TimmyH posted: 01.20.2011 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone see Tony Stewart's press conference discussing the incident in Australia? The altercation was over what he considered dangerous track conditions. I don't care what anyone says, Tony Stewart is everything NASCAR used to be 30 years ago. 591. Bronco posted: 01.20.2011 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh boy. Steve Wallace will be in the Daytona 500 with a guaranteed starting spot thanks to Sam Hornish's points from last year. He can't even compete in NWide, how is he getting a Cup ride in the 500? Oh yeah, he's Rusty's kid." Why is everyone so butthurt about him competing in the 500? Doesn't competing in Nationwide for four years earn you the right to race in Cup? As a Cup driver, he can't possibly be any worse than Speed, Franchitti, Hornish, Ragan turned out to be. Before anyone mentions that he hasn't yet won a Nationwide race, I'd like to point out that he would have, had the Cup drivers not taken over the series the last five years. "At least we now know who'll cause the big one, nepotism at its finest." Lol. Let's not forget that most of the "big ones" from last season (Daytona, Talladega, Texas, Pocono) were all caused by "veteran" drivers. Looks like they do a good enough job of taking each other out without Steve being involved. 592. Smokefan05 posted: 01.20.2011 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ FOr once i find myself agreeing with you. It isn't a big deal. 593. Cooper posted: 01.20.2011 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Steven does well. I like the kid, I think he's a good driver. All the best to him. It's always a big time in a drivers life to go through the tunnel knowing you're going to race in the biggest race of all. And he'll be fine, theres tonnes of practice time for the Daytona 500 so he should be ready to go on Sunday the 20th. 594. Talon64 posted: 01.20.2011 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why is everyone so butthurt about him competing in the 500? Doesn't competing in Nationwide for four years earn you the right to race in Cup? As a Cup driver, he can't possibly be any worse than Speed, Franchitti, Hornish, Ragan turned out to be." 1 top ten, 7 DNF's and a 27th place average finish in 12 career NNS plate races. I'd have no problem with him making his debut in most places, preferably short tracks where he's gotten his best results, but with a plate record like that I don't think the Daytona 500's the best place for him to start out in Cup. 595. TimmyH posted: 01.20.2011 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Kevin Conway can finish 14th in a race at Daytona, I think Steve Wallace will be fine. Anyone who thinks that he will automatically be a danger is either a moron, or doesn't pay attention to the sport outside of the top 15 drivers. 596. Talon64 posted: 01.20.2011 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl said today that he's still going to run the full season in NNS even if he can't win the drivers championship, saying that the owners championship and wins would make it worthwhile. The guy's a potential front-runner for the 2011 Cup championship and he's still worrying about 2nd-tier success? How is this better than settling for NNS success when you're not so hot in Cup? Carl and Roush's priorities are freaking messed up. ... except Carl said that things could change based on "whatever looks best for our Cup program." PROGRESS. I'm almost hoping Carl has a great year in Cup so it increases the odds of him bailing on running a 7th STRAIGHT FULL SEASON in NNS. 597. New 14&88 Fan posted: 01.20.2011 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Steve doesn't cause as many wrecks as he used to(and for once you're correct Bronco,most of the recent big ones have been due to mistakes by veterans)but a short track like Bristol, Richmond or Martinsville or an intermediate like Michigan would be a better place for him to make his cup debute...not a plate race especially the Daytona 500. "Carl said today that he's still going to run the full season in NNS even if he can't win the drivers championship, saying that the owners championship and wins would make it worthwhile. The guy's a potential front-runner for the 2011 Cup championship and he's still worrying about 2nd-tier success? How is this better than settling for NNS success when you're not so hot in Cup? Carl and Roush's priorities are freaking messed up." Which is why the next thing NA$CAR needs to do is limit how many NNS races cup drivers can run in a season.Also rework the schedule to where there are more stand alone races and not as many Cup/NNS companion events.Other wise even with drivers having to declare what series they want to earn points in the Cuppers will still dominate the Nationwide series win column. 598. Talon64 posted: 01.20.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Put a 17 race limit on the teams themselves and how much they can run top 35 Cup drivers. A 17 race limit on just the Cup drivers themselves wouldn't do much; look at JGR for an example, 17 races each for Kyle, Denny and Joey would still fill up most of the schedules for the #20 and #18 teams. 599. Eric posted: 01.20.2011 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only way to stop Carl from entering as money Nationwide races is by having a cap on how many races a cup driver can race in the Nationwide series since his ego apparently is out of control. If that can't happen, there needs to be a cap 5 cup drivers in each Nationwide race. 600. Bronco posted: 01.20.2011 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Steve doesn't cause as many wrecks as he used to(and for once you're correct Bronco,most of the recent big ones have been due to mistakes by veterans)but a short track like Bristol, Richmond or Martinsville or an intermediate like Michigan would be a better place for him to make his cup debute...not a plate race especially the Daytona 500." Can't fault a guy for wanting to fulfill a dream, besides he could very well pull of a surprisingly good finish like Conway did last year. 601. Eric posted: 01.21.2011 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I meant to say was "The only way to stop Carl from entering as many Nationwide races is by having a cap on how many races a cup driver can race in the Nationwide series since his ego apparently is out of control" instead of "The only way to stop Carl from entering as money Nationwide races is by having a cap on how many races a cup driver can race in the Nationwide series since his ego apparently is out of control". 602. Smokefan05 posted: 01.21.2011 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Now you know how i feel. :P 603. ii posted: 01.21.2011 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wait, I've been missing out recently. Is Steve gonna run for ROTY? 604. Smiff_99 posted: 01.21.2011 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, he's just running the 500, using the 77's owner's points. However, the car will be fielded by Rusty's team. 605. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2011 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why is everyone so butthurt about him competing in the 500? Doesn't competing in Nationwide for four years earn you the right to race in Cup? As a Cup driver, he can't possibly be any worse than Speed, Franchitti, Hornish, Ragan turned out to be." Those guys didn't deserve it either. And I'm "butthurt" because anybody else with the numbers he has put up in NWide would never have this chance. Nowadays it isn't about proving you can run good on the lower levels, and earning your way up the ladder, it is about name power and ability to lure sponsors. He is just yet another person in a ride that could go to somebody who actually deserves it. "The only way to stop Carl from entering as many Nationwide races is by having a cap on how many races a cup driver can race in the Nationwide series since his ego apparently is out of control" I agree. I would talk more trash about Carl, but my guy, Brad K, is intent on doing the same thing. Although he has made some interesting points about his choice that have made me think twice, I still disagree, and I still hope once he fulfills his sponsor obligations, he'll scale WAY back. And the hard cap is the best ides IMO. And also have NASCAR mandate which races drivers who choose to earn Cup points run. I think my idea on the 2010 NWide Summer Gateway page, post 165, is a really good one. Obviously the dates could be tweaked some (as long as ISC and SMI each have an equal amount so Bruton doesn't launch nuclear missles at Daytona Beach), but I really like it. If I do say so myself :) 606. Smokefan05 posted: 01.22.2011 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its only 1 race. If he wrecks, you can laugh at him. If he finishes then i guess he just shut everyone up about it. 607. Anonymous posted: 01.22.2011 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Those guys didn't deserve it either. And I'm "butthurt" because anybody else with the numbers he has put up in NWide would never have this chance. Nowadays it isn't about proving you can run good on the lower levels, and earning your way up the ladder, it is about name power and ability to lure sponsors." Stop the presses! DaleSrFanForever is upset about some vague injustice based solely on his biases! The Daytona 500 is just a race. Those drivers that you have a stick up your ass about? They deserve to be there as much as any other driver who ever drove in the Daytona 500. Know why? NASCAR said they could. They qualified for it. They followed all the rules and procedures necessary. So shut up about, "earning your way up the ladder," because that has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with deciding who gets to race in the Daytona 500, or who "deserves" to get to race. Lots of "good" drivers have driven in the Daytona 500, and lots of "bad" drivers have as well. Several "bad" drivers have even won it. It is one of the easiest tracks to race. There is nothing sacred about making the Daytona 500, as if someone like Hornish doing so somehow cheapens the history or prestige of the event, or the accomplishments of those that have won the race before. "Butthurt" is a good word for the way you feel. If you really can't handle the way modern-day NASCAR operates, then go back to your shanty and watch something else. Yes, you have to make a name for yourself to lure sponsors. Racing costs millions of dollars, and not every company is willing to throw all that money at some "good ole boy" because a small number of rednecks know him from your local dirt track. Speed, Hornish, and Franchitti made a name for themselves before they raced in NASCAR. NASCAR isn't the only racing series that matters, and just because it's the only you one that plays on the channels on your trailer park's communal TV, doesn't mean it's the only one that exists. Those drivers earned their sponsorships, and they earned their way into the race the same way as everyone else ever has, by qualifying for it. I suggest you take that stick out of your ass and shut up and watch the race, or just find something else to do if you think the sport is full of drivers who don't deserve to race at all your redneck-Mecca race tracks. It's that simple. 608. Bronco posted: 01.22.2011 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I'm "butthurt" because anybody else with the numbers he has put up in NWide would never have this chance." Those "numbers" that you speak of are only that way because of the Cup guys crushing Nationwide, with the 18, 20, 22, 33 and 60 being the only teams good enough to run at the front on a regular basis. Those five teams alone won 28/35 races last season, and when you combine that with the one off wins from Stewart, Hamlin, Earnhardt Jr, McMurray and Ambrose, how is a Nationwide guy with a Nationwide only team supposed to compete? "Nowadays it isn't about proving you can run good on the lower levels, and earning your way up the ladder, it is about name power and ability to lure sponsors" Lol, how many years have you been asleep for? It's been like that for a damn long time. "He is just yet another person in a ride that could go to somebody who actually deserves it." No one ever said racing, or life in general is fair. I also remember drivers complaining about Jacques Villeneuve making his Cup debut in the 2007 Talladega chase race. He qualified in the top 10, dropped to the back before the race began, and finished on the lead lap, which pretty much silenced the critics. 609. Anonymous posted: 01.23.2011 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol, how many years have you been asleep for? It's been like that for a damn long time." DaleSrFanForever is stuck in a time that never really existed. It's a time when none of the drivers ever lost their temper, only the good guys won races, every championship race was exciting, every driver earned their ride by overcoming humble beginnings and making it on their own with no help from their families or friemds, and all the cars were so equal that only the driver who truly was the best won every race. Also in that fantasy world, people care what he has to say, because all of his opinions are best on reasonable assessments and not petty grudges or incomprehensible biases. 610. potatosalad48 posted: 01.23.2011 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Despite top speeds of over 198 mph in the test @ Daytona, NASCAR isn't changing the restrictor plate for the Daytona 500. Should be fun! 611. Frank posted: 01.24.2011 - 4:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hi folks! Me and my friend Ivan Balakhonov are going to this Daytona 500. We're from Russia and will arrive at Miami on the airplane from Moscow on Wednesday about 4pm. As we know, Amtrak trains go only in the morning and we want to be at the Speedway same day to witness Gatorade Duels. Before booking domestic flight we've thought that maybe we have a chance to go with some fans in truck or rv. Unfortunately none of us have driver ID... Does anybody want to help two guys make trip of their lives impressive from the very beginning? Or maybe any of the RR memebers goes to 500 too? It will be great to meet someone who writes at the best NASCAR board of all internet! Any advices and comments appreciated! 612. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.24.2011 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol. "Anonymous" fighting from the shadows. Gives me a good laugh. 613. Anonymous posted: 01.24.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol. "Anonymous" fighting from the shadows. Gives me a good laugh." Wow, someone that goes by a meaningless name on an internet message board thinking it's funny that someone else goes by "Anonymous". I forgot that you posted your real name, address, and phone number on this website. Yeah, you're not anonymous at all! Lololololololol. By the way, anyone who uses "lol" and isn't a 16 year old girl, is a tool. Also, really loved your counter-argument to my, and Bronco's previous posts. Real strong stuff! You're always worth a laugh too, for how bad you are at constructing logical arguments. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! 614. Smokefan05 posted: 01.25.2011 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ -_- Its stuff like this that doesn't make this site enjoyable. Atleast the SPEED boards aren't like this. 615. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.25.2011 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, anyone who uses "lol" and isn't a 16 year old girl, is a tool." Are you serious? I guess everybody on the internet is a tool then, because just about everyone sprinkles in a LOL when they post something online. 616. New 14&88 Fan posted: 01.25.2011 - 4:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, anyone who uses "lol" and isn't a 16 year old girl, is a tool. Also, really loved your counter-argument to my, and Bronco's previous posts. Real strong stuff! You're always worth a laugh too, for how bad you are at constructing logical arguments. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!" Says the person who throws out "redneck" and "trailer park" with every counter argument you make...the glass house of yours must be shatter proof. 617. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2011 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Says the person who throws out "redneck" and "trailer park" with every counter argument you make...the glass house of yours must be shatter proof." Exactly. Oh well, you asked for it "Anonymous" here it is: "Those five teams alone won 28/35 races last season, and when you combine that with the one off wins from Stewart, Hamlin, Earnhardt Jr, McMurray and Ambrose, how is a Nationwide guy with a Nationwide only team supposed to compete?" Because I compare him to others in his situation. I look at some of the youngsters that drove for Braun Racing, and showed strength that Steve has, quite frankly, never shown. They have shown sparks of being able to run up front every so often. Steve has shown nothing. After 3 years of constant, and usually embarrassing, wrecking he has quit doing that so often, but still never shows any spark of competitiveness. "Lol, how many years have you been asleep for? It's been like that for a damn long time." Not to this extent. Of course there have always been people that could get rides for reasons having nothing to do with on track ability (Mikey), but drivers could still work their way up the ladder if they showed enough on the lower levels. People could show flashes of brilliance in Busch and get chances at Cup without name power. Kes, Denny, Clint, Truex, Kahne, Biff, McMurray, Newman, JJ, Harvick, Kurt Busch, Kenseth just to name a few. That has come to a screeching halt. "No one ever said racing, or life in general is fair." That doesn't mean we have to like it. "It's a time when none of the drivers ever lost their temper" There is a difference between "losing your temper" and "acting like a 5 year old" and "losing it over and over again for the smallest of reasons". We all lose our temper. Most of us can restain ourselves enough to not make a complete ass out of ourselves or else we get our asses fired. "only the good guys won races" That is complete and utter bullshit. My favorite era in NASCAR is the early 80s to mid 90s. Darrell Waltrip won a ton of races in that era and Geoff Bodine won quite a few. I can't stand either of them. "every driver earned their ride by overcoming humble beginnings and making it on their own with no help from their families or friemds" That last part is pure shit. They got help from their friends and families, but they didn't have a whole lot to offer other than knowledge. Fathers that were successful racers made their sons earn their own way up the laddrer (Ralph Earnhardt, Bobby Allison, Lee Petty, Buck Baker, Dale Earnhardt). You keep trying to paint a picture of me that simply isn't true. "and all the cars were so equal that only the driver who truly was the best won every race." I hate the COT and lack of brand identification. I've said that numerous times. Seriously, why are you picking this fight with me when you obviously don't know me? I guess facts aren't your strong point. "Also in that fantasy world, people care what he has to say, because all of his opinions are best on reasonable assessments and not petty grudges or incomprehensible biases." You obviously care because you respond to every single thing I say. I guess my fantasy world isn't a fantasy after all. "Wow, someone that goes by a meaningless name on an internet message board thinking it's funny that someone else goes by "Anonymous". I forgot that you posted your real name, address, and phone number on this website. Yeah, you're not anonymous at all!" By coming up with a username, you give people a look at where you stand. For example, Smokefan05 is obviously a proud Stewart fan. By just going by "Anonymous" you are basically saying "I can't let anybody know anything about me because they will use it against me, and I can't handle that". "By the way, anyone who uses "lol" and isn't a 16 year old girl, is a tool." Well there are enough tools out there to fill every Lowe's store in existance. Typing out "lol" is a simple way of expressing your amusement over a situation. It's a hell of a lot easier that typing this out: "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!" 23 characters vs 3. You do the math. I'm too much of an uneducated redneck to do math that complicated, plus I've been drinking Moonshine all morning while dipping snuff, now I'm gonna get in my pickup truck, cruise around town, and yell out racial slurs at every minority I see. (Just for the record, I have taken and passed 2 Calculus classes at a state university, I have never dipped cause it is disgusting just to look at, have drank Moonshine maybe 3 times in my life, I drive a sports car, and my last 3 girlfriends have been minorities). 618. LOL posted: 01.25.2011 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anon is a probably some high school football wannabe who gets picked on when he says lol...he takes his fight to the internet to feel better about himself. David Hill on FOX wants three races, with a 40 minute pre-race and 20 minute post-race, so just 2 hours of actual racing. That is some bullspit right there. A two hour race? After waiting an entire week? Hell no...if that happens, NASCAR will lose all fans. The ADD fools they cater to will stick around for a year, then die off. 619. lordlowe posted: 01.25.2011 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hey Anonymous quiet down already you are annoying the heck out of everyone 620. lordlowe posted: 01.25.2011 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) smokefan you are right to say that if nascar dies 40% of the blame should go to the fans because they don't help matters and cause more harm then good to nascar 621. Anonymous posted: 01.25.2011 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really, DaleSrFan, that's how you counter that post? You clearly didn't understand a word of it since you brought up the real world, and not this fantasy land you live in where everything was ideal until 5 years ago. Also, that isn't the post I even cared about, it was the one prior explaining how you're a whiny little butthurt moron complaining about things that don't matter. I want to hear your tired, repetitive argument for that one again, because I need a good laugh. "Anon is a probably some high school football wannabe who gets picked on when he says lol" You wish. I'm sorry, but if you use "lol" on a regular basis and aren't a pre-pubescent girl texting her friends, then you are a complete tool. The same goes for "ROFL" and "LMAO". That's just a fact. "hey Anonymous quiet down already you are annoying the heck out of everyone" Hey lordlowe quiet down already you are annoying the heck out of everyone 622. Smokefan05 posted: 01.25.2011 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ I have ADD and have been around NASCAR for 18 years but i wouldn't mind *some* races shortened by 100 miles. Especially chase races. 623. ROFL posted: 01.25.2011 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You wish. I'm sorry, but if you use "lol" on a regular basis and aren't a pre-pubescent girl texting her friends, then you are a complete tool. The same goes for "ROFL" and "LMAO". That's just a fact." Then tools are badass. Thats just a fact. LMAO. "I have ADD and have been around NASCAR for 18 years but i wouldn't mind *some* races shortened by 100 miles." Thats fine Smoke. I would get over it if some races were shortened by 100 miles. But a two hour race? That really appears to be catering to the fair-weather NASCAR fans who only like to watch the start and finish of a race. 624. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2011 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Really, DaleSrFan, that's how you counter that post?" Yep. That is exactly how I roll. Let's see your discussion points so we can debate as to why you think I'm wrong. "You clearly didn't understand a word of it since you brought up the real world, and not this fantasy land you live in where everything was ideal until 5 years ago." Hmmmm. No real counter points here, just more lame insults. While I'm giving my point of view and why I feel certain way, you just throw out grade school insults. BTW, in my opinion, things got less than ideal WAY before 5 years ago. Hell, I'll go back as far as 1995 to point out the beginning of the fun. "Also, that isn't the post I even cared about, it was the one prior explaining how you're a whiny little butthurt moron complaining about things that don't matter." Well seeing as how you respond to every one of my posts, you obviously care and are a borderline stalker. Kinda creepy really. And again, you made no counter points to any of my posts, you just did a bunch of name calling. I'm still waiting for an actual discussion. "I want to hear your tired, repetitive argument for that one again, because I need a good laugh." Still waiting. "You wish. I'm sorry, but if you use "lol" on a regular basis and aren't a pre-pubescent girl texting her friends, then you are a complete tool." So it's ok to go to a discussion board with the sole purpose of stalking somebody who actually tried to discuss things, never make any actual points, only use name calling insults, and go by "anonymous", but you can't use "lol"? That doesn't make a lick of sense. Still waiting for you to discuss why I am so wrong. When you do, I'll happily hear you out and give my counter point. 625. Bronco posted: 01.26.2011 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That doesn't mean we have to like it." You're right, you don't have to like it. But you do have to lump it, because Steve is guaranteed a spot in the 500 no matter how much you complain about it. Likewise, you can complain about Dale Jr, Hamlin, the Busches and others not deserving their rides, but they're out there competing while you're sitting at your keyboard banging away your frustrations. "My favorite era in NASCAR is the early 80s to mid 90s." Well, that tells you everything you need to know. Because today's NASCAR has evolved (for better or for worse), you complain about everything. "They got help from their friends and families, but they didn't have a whole lot to offer other than knowledge." So because Wallace, Menard and some others have family funding behind them, they should be crucified? Because some other "more deserving" driver deserves their spot, right? By the way, its funny that you bring up racing families, given that "your guy" got his start in NASCAR not by racing at the local level for years hoping that someone took notice of him, but by driving for his father's Truck team, an advantage that not a lot of other racers had. Haha. "(Just for the record, I have taken and passed 2 Calculus classes at a state university, I have never dipped cause it is disgusting just to look at, have drank Moonshine maybe 3 times in my life, I drive a sports car, and my last 3 girlfriends have been minorities)." I'm sorry, but you have got to be pretty insecure to actually divulge that much information about yourself on a public forum in response to someone calling you a redneck. Education history, relationship history, sports car, really? 626. SaleDrFanForever posted: 01.26.2011 - 4:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm sorry, but you have got to be pretty insecure to actually divulge that much information about yourself on a public forum in response to someone calling you a redneck. Education history, relationship history, sports car, really?" If this was the real world, this is where I would give you a high five. "Still waiting for you to discuss why I am so wrong. When you do, I'll happily hear you out and give my counter point." You want it? Here it is, since you're too lazy to scroll up the page: Stop the presses! DaleSrFanForever is upset about some vague injustice based solely on his biases! The Daytona 500 is just a race. Those drivers that you have a stick up your ass about? They deserve to be there as much as any other driver who ever drove in the Daytona 500. Know why? NASCAR said they could. They qualified for it. They followed all the rules and procedures necessary. So shut up about, "earning your way up the ladder," because that has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with deciding who gets to race in the Daytona 500, or who "deserves" to get to race. Lots of "good" drivers have driven in the Daytona 500, and lots of "bad" drivers have as well. Several "bad" drivers have even won it. It is one of the easiest tracks to race. There is nothing sacred about making the Daytona 500, as if someone like Hornish doing so somehow cheapens the history or prestige of the event, or the accomplishments of those that have won the race before. "Butthurt" is a good word for the way you feel. If you really can't handle the way modern-day NASCAR operates, then go back to your shanty and watch something else. Yes, you have to make a name for yourself to lure sponsors. Racing costs millions of dollars, and not every company is willing to throw all that money at some "good ole boy" because a small number of rednecks know him from your local dirt track. Speed, Hornish, and Franchitti made a name for themselves before they raced in NASCAR. NASCAR isn't the only racing series that matters, and just because it's the only you one that plays on the channels on your trailer park's communal TV, doesn't mean it's the only one that exists. Those drivers earned their sponsorships, and they earned their way into the race the same way as everyone else ever has, by qualifying for it. I suggest you take that stick out of your ass and shut up and watch the race, or just find something else to do if you think the sport is full of drivers who don't deserve to race at all your redneck-Mecca race tracks. It's that simple. There, now you can't avoid it again in some lame attempt to turn my own words around me. Answer it. So we can all laugh and laugh at the insecure redneck whose, "last 3 girlfriends have been minorities" (which I'm guessing means you went against all southern tradition and dated someone outside of your religion). Oh, and how do you like the new name? Now I'm no longer anonymous! And it has a certain cadence to it that I think is just fantastic. 627. Smokefan05 posted: 01.26.2011 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ -_- *facepalm* 628. lordlowe posted: 01.26.2011 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) okay this rivalry between dalesrfanforever and saledrfanforever is getting a little ridiculous your both acting like spoiled 5 year old's 629. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.26.2011 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank goodness. He finally created a name. And that name says a lot. He is here to stalk me. Of course I already knew that. At least he admits it. "By the way, its funny that you bring up racing families, given that "your guy" got his start in NASCAR not by racing at the local level for years hoping that someone took notice of him, but by driving for his father's Truck team, an advantage that not a lot of other racers had. Haha." It wasn't a top tier Truck. Brad drove a few races in '04, one year after Terry Cook, who won 4 races in it in '02, went through '03 without a single Top 5. It was clearly on the decline. I doubt Terry forgot how to drive a Truck over the offseason. "So because Wallace, Menard and some others have family funding behind them, they should be crucified?" If they are there based on their families alone, then yes. "Likewise, you can complain about Dale Jr, Hamlin, the Busches and others not deserving their rides, but they're out there competing while you're sitting at your keyboard banging away your frustrations." Yes, I do. And gues who else sits at their computer and bangs away their frustrations? Other athletes. Including two people I don't like at all, Denny Hamlin and Ryan Newman who got "secretly" fined for their Twitter remarks. Hell, Jay Cutler sits out the 2nd half of the NFC Championship game with a knee sprain and Twitter all but exploded with current and former pro athletes trashing him. "I'm sorry, but you have got to be pretty insecure to actually divulge that much information about yourself on a public forum in response to someone calling you a redneck. Education history, relationship history, sports car, really?" Yes, really. I'm not afraid. 630. New 14&88 Fan posted: 01.26.2011 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "okay this rivalry between dalesrfanforever and saledrfanforever is getting a little ridiculous your both acting like spoiled 5 year old's" Yeah this, I thought this place was to discuss racing, not to exchange schoolyard put downs and fling stereotypes about like snowballs. 631. Anonymous posted: 01.26.2011 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It wasn't a top tier Truck. Brad drove a few races in '04, one year after Terry Cook, who won 4 races in it in '02, went through '03 without a single Top 5. It was clearly on the decline. I doubt Terry forgot how to drive a Truck over the offseason." Why am I not surprised to see you making excuses for Brad? Yes, he drove a mediocre truck, but the point is he had a NASCAR ride at the age of 20 just because his father owned a small time truck team, which clearly gave him an advantage over anyone else starting out. He was able to get his name out there, while other guys his age had to race at the local level and just hope that someone would notice them enough to give them a one off in a Truck. "Including two people I don't like at all, Denny Hamlin and Ryan Newman who got "secretly" fined for their Twitter remarks." Newman's fine was for criticizing the racing at Talladega - it had nothing to do with anything he said online. 632. SaleDrFanForever posted: 01.27.2011 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Thank goodness. He finally created a name. And that name says a lot. He is here to stalk me. Of course I already knew that. At least he admits it." Ha! Not only are you insecure, you're also paranoid and full of yourself. You actually think someone would stalk some insignificant piece of crap like you? You wish. And you think this is the first "name" I've used on this site? I've used at least 20 different names on different race and driver pages over the last year and a half. I post even more than you think. But I'm not surprised some rube like you can't tell the difference between obvious trolls and a real person, because you're such a smug know-it-all, all you care about is proving to everyone how "smart" you are about everything. There are few better targets for trolling on the internet than someone like DaleSrFanForever. He'll take almost any bait and argue almost any inane point or opinion. Look at how much respect others have lost for him because of the stupid crap he's argued over. I could hardly care less about most of it, though I do find his reactions quite humorous. And of course he's not the only one who has fallen victim to trolling attempts. He's just the one that will be first in line to argue, no matter how ridiculous the argument. Stalker....heh, that's a good one. DaleSrFan, I have a tip for you, you should stay away from websites like Fark.com and 4chan.com. You'll be roped into a hundred arguments with trolls before you even register a name. In other news, first real taste of the racing season this weekend. Anyone going to watch the 24 hours of Daytona? I wouldn't mind seeing any of the NASCAR drivers win on their respective teams. Jimmie Johnson might actually have a legitimate shot. The team of Scott Dixon, Dario Franchitti, Juan Montoya, and Jamie McMurray is stocked with winners of big races and champions, and I'd love to see those 4 drivers add another big win to their resumes. Hell, I'm just glad racing is back. 633. T-27 posted: 01.27.2011 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) France announced the changes for 2011 (consider this my annoyed rant): 1) The new Chase format: top 10 + two with most victories not in top 10 but still in top 20 --> I can agree with this. Like many of us, I don't like the Chase one bit, but this would at least get drivers like McMurray last year in it. 2)The new points sytem: "Many of our most loyal fans don't fully understand the points system we have used to date," said France, referencing the system that has been in use since 1975. "So, we are simplifying the points system to one that is much easier to understand. Conceptually, it is comparable to our previous system, but it is easier to follow." (nascar.com) --> Why not just give us the finger? It's not rocket science... The points sytem was fine as it was; I don't like it that NASCAR wants to change so many things all at once and this thing annoys me the most. A difference of 1 point for every position is ridiculous, I think it will actually reward Clint Bowyer-like consistency more. This has nothing to do with their "most loyal fans" (I know, tv and stuff). 3)Pick a series: a lot has been said about this, so I'll keep it short. --> Edwards and Keselowski are still running the whole schedule, while Harvick, Busch and Logano will also run 20/30 races. They will win basically everything, the exceptions may be Almirola and Sadler. This is the dumbest rule change ever. I don't want a champion with 18 top 10's, 10 top fives and no wins and 50 laps led... Your thoughts? 634. Frank posted: 01.27.2011 - 9:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like me and my friend will die as NASCAR fans after this Daytona 500... 635. I Seize the Day posted: 01.27.2011 - 11:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone who criticizes a driver for their dad getting them into the sport is naive. Every racer gets into the sport because of their dad. Look at Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart. All these guys get started at the tender age of 4-5 and its because of backing from pa pa. Criticize one driver, criticize them all! 636. Smiff_99 posted: 01.27.2011 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't even know where to begin..... First off, let's knock off this bullshit sparring. At this point, it doesn't even matter who's right or who's wrong or who's best at making points. This petulent nonsense is getting old. DSFF AND SDFF--you guys need to knock it off. DSFF, if you think defending your opinions with overanylizing diatribes is earning you any respect, you can think again. We're all entitled to our opinions, but continuing to promote your own incessantly (as if you have something to prove) is only gonna further alienate you from everyone else. Hence Anonymous' irritation with you. And Anonymous or SDFF (or whatever the hell you're calling yourself)....is your own life SOOOOO boring that you must find the time to come on here and deconstruct DSFF's posts, and in an offensive way, no less? You wanna talk racing? Then we'll talk racing. But there's no room here for childish insults. It's dicks like you that turn innocent forums into hate-filled bitch-fests. I've said it before and I'll say it again.....we're all here for a reason; because we share our love of NASCAR (The sport, not the sanctioning body). There's no reason why we can't all co-exist in a civil manner. We all share a common interest and we're here to discuss THAT, not insult each other. 637. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.27.2011 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why am I not surprised to see you making excuses for Brad? Yes, he drove a mediocre truck, but the point is he had a NASCAR ride at the age of 20 just because his father owned a small time truck team, which clearly gave him an advantage over anyone else starting out. He was able to get his name out there, while other guys his age had to race at the local level and just hope that someone would notice them enough to give them a one off in a Truck." True. But you have to give Brad credit for proving himself and getting a chance at Cup once he got into a good ride (JR Motorsports' #88). There have been others in a similar situation to him that couldn't do shit (like John Wrecks Weekly) even when they got into a good car. I read most of the posts that have been typed in here recently, and I let out a big sigh and rested my hand on my forehead. I thought this site was a place to discuss our opinions on racing, not attack someone just because you disagree with them. I think Smiff_99 summed it up best. 638. Smokefan05 posted: 01.27.2011 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff, i wish i could buy you a beer cuz i agree 100%. "Looks like me and my friend will die as NASCAR fans after this Daytona 500..." If you wish to leave NASCAR after the race, then go for it. I just wish others would to. Because all the negative opinions it what is not making me stay around. "Why not just give us the finger? It's not rocket science... The points sytem was fine as it was; I don't like it that NASCAR wants to change so many things all at once and this thing annoys me the most." I give any fan who complains the finger. :P Why stick around with something that you can't enjoy? "This is the dumbest rule change ever. I don't want a champion with 18 top 10's, 10 top fives and no wins and 50 laps led..." How about you suck it up and deal with it. The people wanted a Naitonwide regualr winning the championship and they will get it. I don't care about what the stat sheet looks like, as along as someone "deserving" wins the championship. Oh look, now i look like hypocrite. Well i'm proud of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG82QCa91k ^ I made this about a week ago and got some good feedback. If you disagree with me, then fine but its my opinion. 639. Talon64 posted: 01.27.2011 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There are few better targets for trolling on the internet than someone like DaleSrFanForever. He'll take almost any bait and argue almost any inane point or opinion. Look at how much respect others have lost for him because of the stupid crap he's argued over. I could hardly care less about most of it, though I do find his reactions quite humorous. And of course he's not the only one who has fallen victim to trolling attempts. He's just the one that will be first in line to argue, no matter how ridiculous the argument. Stalker....heh, that's a good one. DaleSrFan, I have a tip for you, you should stay away from websites like Fark.com and 4chan.com. You'll be roped into a hundred arguments with trolls before you even register a name." So you're not only a shitty, annoying troll but now I can assume you're regularly on 4chan. I've still got respect for DSFF, but none for an asshole like you that's completely ruined this race comment board. It's about time you f***** off and put this shit to rest because the responsibility for it is in your court. 640. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.27.2011 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Your thoughts?" I agree 100%. This "change" to the points system does nothing. The two "wild card" spots for race winners is a nice touch, but overall consistency will mean more than ever. "You actually think someone would stalk some insignificant piece of crap like you?" Seeing as how you respond to every single thing I say, then yes, I think that is stalking. "There are few better targets for trolling on the internet than someone like DaleSrFanForever. He'll take almost any bait and argue almost any inane point or opinion." At least you admit you're a troll. I give you credit for that. "DaleSrFan, I have a tip for you, you should stay away from websites like Fark.com and 4chan.com." I've never even heard of either of those sites. "Anyone going to watch the 24 hours of Daytona?" No. "DSFF, if you think defending your opinions with overanylizing diatribes is earning you any respect, you can think again." I'm not here to earn your respect. I'm here to discuss things and say what I feel needs to be said. 641. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.28.2011 - 12:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes! If you haven't read David Pearson's recent comments yet, go check them out. As always, the Silver Fox speaks the truth and says how he feels. And you know what the best part is? The Hall of Fame stuff is coming up, so we get to hear more from him, which is awesome. Although it is an absolute sham he didn't get inducted into the HOF 1st class, which instantly caused the HOF to lose all credibility, there is an upside to it. If he had been in the 1st class (which he absolutely should have been), he'd have been overshadowed by the more publicized drivers like Earnhardt and Petty. This year, he is clearly the class leader, and will be the focal point. I can't wait for induction week just to hear him. And the Wood Borthers will run his throwback scheme at some point (not sure when). A true throwback scheme. This is great news. 642. Smiff_99 posted: 01.28.2011 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My favorite thing about Pearson is that he still believes he can win, even in today's NASCAR. And you know what? I bet he could. For real. He's THE SILVER FOX, for pete's sake. No disrespect to the King, but that's the best nickname in all of racing, if not in all of sports. Not to mention, if the Wood Bros. had run full time back then, he'd be neck-and-neck with Petty for titles and wins. Easily. Petty would've never hit 200. 643. T-27 posted: 01.28.2011 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How about you suck it up and deal with it. The people wanted a Naitonwide regualr winning the championship and they will get it. I don't care about what the stat sheet looks like, as along as someone "deserving" wins the championship." Well, it'll have to do, I guess, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna like it. If you change something, then change it into something better. And I think they could've done a better job. 644. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.28.2011 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I bet he could. For real." I bet he could too. Especially with all the cars being the same. Him and Earnhardt are two guys that would have absolutely rewritten the record book if they could have driven in the COT era with identical rules and bulletproof cars and motors. They'd be doing what JJ is doing now. 645. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.29.2011 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They'd be doing what JJ is doing now." I agree. Hell, if it weren't for Dale's 1992 slump he could have won 5 in a row before Jimmie got to it. And Dale would have done it under the old points system! 646. ii posted: 01.30.2011 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale didn't really have a slump in 92: Morgan Shepard wrecked him at 'Dega on the last lap, which cost him the championship 647. New 14&88 Fan posted: 01.30.2011 - 10:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was 95 ii, in 92 Dale and RCR weren't in championship contention(it was a ford dominated year) 648. RR posted: 01.31.2011 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even if ii did get the date right, it's absurd to say that the Spring Talladega race cost him the championship. 649. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2011 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The big thing that used to happen before NASCAR went to common templates and eventually the horrendous COT is that manufacturers would come out with a new model that would leave other teams behind until their manufacturer came up with something new. That made it harder to stay on top. In 1983, Ford came up with the rounded, aerodynamic Thunderbird to combat the GM domination. It took them a little while to figure it out. But eventually Ford teams, namely the Elliotts, began blowing the GM cars off the big track in their T-Brids. If they could have figured it out earlier (they mostly used the old shoebox T-Bird '82 model in '83 cause that is what they knew) who knows how many more wins Bill could have had. Then, after being totally embarrassed by Elliott in '85, GM place sloped rear windows on their cars in '86 to feed air to the spoiler like the T-Birds. 1986 was dominated by Dale Earnhardt, Darrell Waltrip, and Tim Richmond, all Chevy drivers. Then 1987 was a joke. Earnhardt just blew past everyone that year, and occasionally ran over them just to prove he was the baddest SOB out there (Elliott and Bodine in the Winston, Sterling at Bristol). Then in 1988 Ford came out with a new, even more aerodynamic T-Bird, Pontiac created a brand new Grand Prix, and Buick had a new design. With the Chevy teams still driving the old shoebox Monte Carlo, it allowed Bobby Allison to dominate Daytona Speedweeks with an average team (the Stavolas), Rusty Wallace exploded into a week in week out contender, and Awesome Bill finally won the Winston Cup while Earnhardt, who had won 16 races over the past two seasons, only won 3 and finished a distant 3rd in points. Chevy responded 1/3 of the way through 1989 with the aerodynamic Lumina. RCR came back to life (while Hendrick oddly struggled with it) allowing Dale to come within a Ricky Rudd last lap divebomb of the championship. The next year Earnhardt shook off the ultra-consistent Martin for 9 wins and began his run of 4 Winston Cups in 5 years. That is what we have been missing for so long. It is yet another thing that is causing stagnation in NASCAR. Hell, even Toyota's arrival wasn't that big of a deal because they had the same cars as everyone else. There is just not much new and exciting coming down the pipe. NASCAR is talking about changing that soon. Hopefully it will. And since everyone is driving the same stuff, it has allowed Jimmie Johnson to go on the most successful sustained run ever in NASCAR. Since JJ is the only current driver with championship level talent that isn't a) a head case b) distracted by outside ventures or c) washed up, he uses his Top 5 talent to run with the leaders then pounce when they inevitably screw up. 650. Smiff_99 posted: 02.01.2011 - 10:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regardless of the eligibility requirements......... THE BUD SHOOTOUT'S IN JUST 11 DAYS!!! 651. ii posted: 02.01.2011 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Even if ii did get the date right, it's absurd to say that the Spring Talladega race cost him the championship." Really? Well, look at the points difference from 2nd to 21st under that system, and look at the lead Gordon had over Dale in the championship race. See that? Yes, I am right. Don't question ii again. 652. Smiff_99 posted: 02.01.2011 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did you just refer to yourself in the 3rd person? 653. RR posted: 02.01.2011 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You do realize that Gordon just ran laps after he clinched the title, right? They had a pit stop where Evernham was the jack-man (I think) and Hendrick wiped the windshield. You also realize that races don't happen in a vacuum, and that if Earnhardt would have been closer to Gordon during the later part of the season, the 24 team would have raced a bit harder during those final few races? With four races left in the season, Gordon had a 302 point lead over Earnhardt. He had a 147 point lead over Earnhardt going in to the final race. He could have driven Fred Flinstone's car to a championship at that point. You also realize that, after the Spring Talladega race, Gordon and Earnhardt were tied for the points lead? And Gordon flat out beat him the rest of the year. Gordon had more wins than Earnhardt, and led 1000 more laps than Earnhardt did that year. Fact was Gordon was the best that year. 654. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2011 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Throughout any season, there are moments that, looking back, had serious impact. Although Dale had some bad luck in '95, so did Jeff. He won 3 or the first 6 races, but the other 3 were disasters. They were simply the faster team that year. Like was said earlier, Jeff had a huge lead for most of the season's second half. Entering the final race, all Jeff had to do was lead one lap or avoid finishing last. Seeing as how Hendrick entered Jeff Purvis in a one time car, and had it park for a few laps after the first lap (like RCR did with Neil Bonnett in '93 for Dale), it was never a question. Yeah, it was fun watching Dale take it to them in the last 6 or 7 races, nearly erasing a 200+ point deficit. But had that one race gone different, the 24 would have just raced to the title. Looking back, the 24 had issues finishing seasons. The '95 and '97 titles were way too close for comfort considering how they dominated those seasons, and they actually coughed it up in the '96 season. Of course they changed that in 1998, then Ray bolted. Now if you're an Earnhardt fan looking for a lost championship, look at 1989. 655. ii posted: 02.01.2011 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmmm...let's see.... Standings. Driver. Points 1 Jeff Gordon. 4614 2. Dale Earnhardt 4580 Are you thinking of 1998? 1 Jeff Gordon. 5328 2 Mark Martin. 4964 I know Earnhardt wasn't in contention in '98 but look at the difference 656. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2011 - 1:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have the 1995 finale on tape. At the beginning they mention that all Jeff had to do was avoid finishing last or lead one lap. During the first round of pit stops under green (this was before the days of constant phantom debris cautions) Jeff stayed out as long as possible, led one lap, and clinched the Winston Cup with almost 200 laps still to go. I have no idea what happened after that, why he fell so many laps down and finished so poorly. But I'm guessing that if they had to, the 24 team could have done better. Unless something broke, which could have happened. Now that opens up a whole new can of worms. What if Dale doesn't get spun at Dega, then something DOES break on Jeff's car at Atlanta, a race that Dale dominates and wins, and Dale wins the Winston Cup. The next year, Jeff had command of the points until late when Terry overtook him due to yet another late year slump. What happens in '97 when DJ and Mark start closing in? Do they get tight considering they blew it for two straight years before? But overall there are a ton of what ifs in championship battles. Dale has caught some good breaks (Darrell and Junior annoucing a split at the end of '86, Mark's penalty in '90, and Irvan's wreck in '94, not a "good" break, but it handed Dale the title) and bad breaks (Dega and the two Michigan races in '95, Rudd at Wilkesboro in '89). It happens. 657. Cooper posted: 02.02.2011 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no need for what "ifs" in a 30 or more race season. 30 is alot of races to determine a legitamte champion. Now if you want to do what ifs for a season of 10 races, then that's fine. But if a driver and team accumulates the most points through 30 races, there is no what if. 30 races can filter the lucky and unlucky runs throughout the season. That is the only thing I like about the non chase format. 658. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.02.2011 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion, overall consistency is the only good way to crown a champion. If a guy wins a lot of races but also has as many DNF's as he does wins, then I don't think he deserves the title, unless somehow every other driver still manages to be less consistent. And if anything, had Jeff lost the '95 title, I think it might have motivated them to win it even more in '97. Really, the only thing that cost Jeff the 1996 title was an overheating engine in the Fall Charlotte race, taking him from a top-5 run to a 31st place finish while Terry Labonte dominated and won that race. I'm not sure how differently Terry and his team would have run had that not happened, seeing as he scored top-5's at Rockingham, Phoenix and Atlanta to end the season, but Jeff lost by only 34 points. 659. awesomegordonfan posted: 02.02.2011 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wait...SaleDrFanForever...??? BTW the new points system will pwn, ita France's best decision since................nothing. About the number of comments, I believe theres only 100 or so more. 660. awesomegordonfan posted: 02.02.2011 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind...its already happened. Thanks to ii and his conversations, as well as DSFF, Smokefan, etc. we beat it. All because of NASCAR's future (and Johnson being a cheat). 661. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.03.2011 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For some strange reason or reasons, Gordon had issues closing a season in 3 (95, 97, 01) of his 4 championship seasons. Paradoxically, when his team puts up consistent numbers in late 2007(quite possibly his best close besides 1998), he doesn't win the Cup. As for racing breaks, Earnhardt had his share of good breaks along with Johnson. 662. Talon64 posted: 02.03.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For some strange reason or reasons, Gordon had issues closing a season in 3 (95, 97, 01)" Not really in 2001; his biggest point lead of the season was 395 after Talladega with 5 races to go and despite just 2 top tens in those 5 races he won it by 344. Something I never knew until I looked at the points that year was how Ricky Rudd was 2nd in points for most of the 2nd half while Jeff was pulling away, until Rudd dropped to 4th in the last 2 races; his average finish in the last 3 was 23.0. 663. I Seize the Day posted: 02.04.2011 - 9:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is for wwe and nascar fans...which do you think has a longer, more promising future? 664. FACK posted: 02.04.2011 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the new points system. Its at least better then the past 7 years. Then again the Cha$e is still around, so who cares? 665. I Seize the Day posted: 02.04.2011 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Never mind...its already happened. Thanks to ii and his conversations, as well as DSFF, Smokefan, etc. we beat it. All because of NASCAR's future (and Johnson being a cheat)." I am at my office job, which is boring. So I did a rough count of the most commenters on this race. DSFF - 113! Smokefan - 56 Talon - 40 ii - 39 Smiff - 27 Bronco - 14 cfob - 4 666. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.04.2011 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Jeff had a relatively weak finish to 2001, but nobody stepped up to challenge him (like Earnhardt in '91). 667. Talon64 posted: 02.04.2011 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me weak's relative, if he'd let everyone close in on him a lot like '95 and '97 or if it wasn't just a matter of easing off the pedal because he had such a big lead, then sure. His average finish in the last 11 races was 13.9, vs. 9.7 in the first 25 races. But by then he had a 342 point lead and despite giving up 120 points to Rudd at Richmond he pulled away to a 300+ point lead again in just two races. And it was a season where 13.9 was more than good enough to close things out, considering only 5 guys equaled or bettered that for the whole year. 668. ii posted: 02.04.2011 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did you just refer to yourself in the 3rd person?" Yes. I did it on purpose. Who are you going for in the Super Bowl? My pick: Steelers - they've always been favorites, and this year isn't an exception. Back to racing... "As for racing breaks, Earnhardt had his share of good breaks along with Johnson." Besides the fact that he was never penalized, how did Earnhardt have good breaks? And Johnson can't have this luck forever...even though all NASCAR news articles I've looked at has Johnson as the favorite (again)... "Actually Jeff had a relatively weak finish to 2001, but nobody stepped up to challenge him (like Earnhardt in '91)." Well, if nobody steps up to challenge a championship winner, then there's no reason why the points leader should even be trying anymore. That's why we have the retarted Cha$e. 669. awesomegordonfan posted: 02.04.2011 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, putting Dale and 2001 in the same sentence without talking about his death, especially near the anniversary, without talking about his death is sad. I wasn't even alive in '95, so I really don't know the standings. Plus, I didn't become a fan until that thrilling '07 finish. All I know is, it was the start of the Gordon dominance. 670. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.05.2011 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh believe me, Dale's anniversary is going to be beaten to death by the media in terms of talking about it. Hard to believe it's been 10 years since his death, I still remember the 2001 Daytona 500 like it happened just recently (I get tired of people saying "yesterday" so I said something else). Even though I was only 11 years old at that time, I was shocked when I found out Dale died, and realized NASCAR wouldn't quite be the same without him around. And I wasn't even a fan of his. I respected him, but I certainly wasn't a fan. I pull for RCR because of Jeff Burton. 671. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.05.2011 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Jeff and team eased up in the last 5 races of 2001, but Rudd completely collapsed starting with Talladega and Martinsville. Actually, Jarrett tied Gordon in points after the first New Hampshire race, but a crash at Pocono, the wrong pit strategy at Indy, a cut tire at Michigan and two trips to the kitty liter due to wheel hop at Watkins Glen doomed Dale Jarrett's run at Gordon in 2001. Ricky Rudd surged ahead in August and looked to have the momentum in September, but he collapsed in the standings. Ironically Stewart and Marlin did to Rudd what Rudd did to Jarrett by surging passed the #28 team in the last five races. 2001 was definitely a watershed year as far as the championship run is concerned because its the last year multiple veteran guys like Jarrett, Rudd and Marlin challenged for the championship. Don't get me wrong, Mark Martin in '02 and '09 and Sterling Marlin 2/3s of '02 just to name a few did make strong runs for the championship, but 2001 was the last multiple veteran (from Earnhardt's generation) championship-contender challenge. 672. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2011 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I meant by the 2001 championship battle is this: Compared to the first 2/3 of the season, Gordon's runs after his Kansas win were off. Before then he was dynamite. He led a ton of laps, was almost always in contention, and just wore everyone down. It was like his rainbow warrior days with Ray, just without the soul crushing ability to win over and over again. His main challengers were Dale Jarrett and Ricky Rudd at Yates. For the first half of the season, they both put a lot of pressure on Jeff. But they faded horribly towards the end of the season (Rudd's awesome victory at Richmond notwithstanding). Little did we know at the time, that was the beginning of a sad downfall for Yates Racing, DJ, and Rudd. They would each get a few more wins, but their days of contending were over. It reminds me a lot of 1991. Dale exploded out of the gate, then after his summer Talladega win seemed to enter the witness protection program. But like '01, his competition couldn't mount a challenge. Ricky Rudd hung close by consistency at first, then was consistenly mid pack the rest of the year. Davey Allison had a rough start with Jake Elder. Then Larry Mac took over and they caught fire over the summer as Davey showed what he would have been capable of for a long time. But they cooled off after the summer even though they won a few more races. Handsome Harry had his heart warming 4 in a row streak in September, but was so far out of the points when that started it didn't affect the top of the standings. Mark and the #6 team had a classic let down year after coming so close in '90, only to have the resident dominator rip their hearts out of their chests by coming through when it truly mattered in the very end (VERY similar to Hamlin in '10, watch out for this in '11). In the end Dale basically won by default. In a 29 race season, he only had to start the last race of the year. He then set the record for least amount of emotion shown in a championship interview, a record he held for 13 years until Kurt Busch obliterated it in 2004. One last thing to think about for 2001. In the last part of the year, Hendrick and Jeff Gordon partnered up to create a start up sister team that they would co-own and let share their shop as they would debut in 2002 with a barely known driver and a former tire changer on the rainbow warriors as crew chief. They would run a few races at the end of 2001 first, something Jeff was very enthusiastic about. Did this distract them? And looking back, how much does Jeff wish he'd never done this as this team, originally created to be his wingmen, would yank the torch of NASCAR's top team out of his hands, beat him year after year in the same equipment, hurt Jeff historically, and eventually have Jeff kicked out of his own shop, and he's happy about it cause he is finally out of THEIR shadow. Talk about your all time backfire! As far as the 10th "anniversary" of Dale's death, it will be emotional. It's hard to believe, but hopefully after this, we can finally move on. We can cherish the wonderful memories he left us with and not feel so down about his passing (obviously for his family and RCR it is a different story). That is what I try to do. I try not to dwell on it. And I try, unsuccessfully, not to fall into the "If Dale were still here, this or that would have happened". Let's face it, he'd have been retired for at least 4 or 5 years by now. His main job right now would be making sure his cowboy boots don't go too far up Dale Jr's ass when he kicks it cause they would get stuck. Also, Michael Waltrip wouldn't have gotten survivor's guilt, fell into depression, and let his marraige fall apart (at least that is what he claims in his new book according to reviews. it had nothing to do with him staying out late and night and flipping his Land Cruiser, and the fact THAT HE HAS ALWAYS SUCKED AS A DRIVER!!!!). He left me many wonderful memories for my childhood. I look back and smile. Every so often it will make me sad. When I went to the Hall of Fame in Charlotte and looked at his car, I felt sad thinking about how much I pulled for that car, how when I went to races I would spend the whole time looking at it. But overall it's good. He left a hell of a legacy, and it was SO much fun to watch. Super Bowl pick: Green Bay. If it were an outdoor game in the snow and sleet currently covering Dallas, I would favor Pittsburgh. But an indoor game played on solid turf, with Green Bay's spread 'em out offense and attack the QB defense, it plays right into their wheelhouse. Also Big Ben is a creep and Aaron Rodgers winning the Super Bowl would cap off a humongously embarrassing 13 months for Favre (the "what in the living hell were you thinking" pick in the NFC title game against the Saints that cost them a trip to the Super Bowl, another drama queen round of "I retire, oh wait, I don't", his horrific play on the field, the cell phone dong pics and humiliating voice messages to some PR rep while his wife, who has stood by him through a LOT of shit, was finishing off recovering from breast cancer, and now the guy he was shoved out the door for at Green Bay, for which he pitched a fit, winning the Super Bowl). So there. 673. Smokefan05 posted: 02.05.2011 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This is for wwe and nascar fans...which do you think has a longer, more promising future?" NASCAR does. WWE is going after kids and pissing all over their old fans (like me) and making their product PG. Wrestling isn't PG and kids shouldn't be watching it. And too boot the guys who wrestle are on the road (traveling) 360 days out of the year and they have no health insurence. IT's all out of their pay checks. Atleast in NASCARs case, when certain aspects (i've ranted on these before) comes together things will work out. And Unlike WWE, NASCAR is kids friendly and not violent. So it's easy for the kids to follow and enjoy. 674. Spen posted: 02.05.2011 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh no, DSFF just invoked the name which mustn't be spoken. We'll be at 900 comments by Daytona. 675. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2011 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I haven't watched wrestling regularly in almost 10 years, and quit watching it altogether about 7 years ago. Ever since WWF bought WCW it has gone downhill. When they had to compete against each other, it forced them to get very creative and the results were quite entertaining. Now? Ugh. Every year my buddy will throw a WrestleMania party which I usually show up to, mainly to see friends I haven't seen in a while, drink beer, and eat wings. With the exception of the HBK vs Undertaker matches the last two years (which were awesome), they have been forgettable. "Oh no, DSFF just invoked the name which mustn't be spoken. We'll be at 900 comments by Daytona." Yeah, I probably should have thought about that before I posted it. I'll try to deflect attention away from it by pointing out the similarities between Mark Martin in 1990 and Denny Hamlin in 2010. The relative upstart going toe to toe with the juggernaut down the stretch (Earnhardt in '90, JJ in '10), the big win towards the end of the season that made people say "holy shit, he's gonna pull it off" as they seemingly took command of the points (Mark's win at Wilkesboro in '90, Denny's win at Texas in '10), the bad break in the second to last race of the year in Phoenix that flipped the momentum (the 6 team's decision to pit late on a track where track position is paramount and getting Mark stuck in traffic in '90, Mike Ford's fuel mileage debacle in '10 as they were about to drop the dagger on JJ) and the way both teams got psyched out in the last race (the 6 team testing 6 different cars at Atlanta, finally borrowing one from Yates as Dale turned about 4 laps with trick tires, obliterating the track record then going deer hunting the rest of the test session, JJ making a home in Denny's head all week in Miami leading to Denny screwing up qualifying then bending his car up just 24 laps into the race with Mike Ford making no serious attempt to fix it). Mark had a big letdown in '91, never making any run at the points in a year when nobody really took command. Will the same happen to Denny in 2011? 676. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.06.2011 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny kind of reminded me of Edwards in '08. For much of the season, it looked like he may break though and finally beat the 48, while having more overall speed. Carl actually DID put up better stats than Jimmie in '08, but he made a stupid mistake at Talladega when he tried to bump-draft Biffle in a turn, causing the big one. He then had another bad race at Charlotte. Denny even won a lot in the early season, then didn't win as much in the mid-point before reverting back to win-grabbing status late in the year, just like Carl in '08. But for much of the '08 season, it seemed that the 99 team was the only other team that could remain consistent like the 48, much like the 11 seemed to be last year. 677. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.06.2011 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL, I probably should have mentioned that Kevin Harvick was also wildly consistent in 2010, and he would have likely won the title had we still used the old points system. But win-wise, Denny and the 11 team were the only ones who could hang with the 48 so that part of my point still stands. 678. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2011 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brett who? 679. Eric posted: 02.06.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have been a Packer Fan since the 1980's and this a great moment. No one will ask questions about Rodgers being Favre saga anymore. There other great thing about the Rodgers winning the Super Bowl is all the fire Ted Thompson websites out there now can close down or the site owners look like fools. Ted Thompson was looked at as a bad guy for trading Brett and getting a draft pick for Brett(later used for trade bait for 2009 draft pick Clay Matthews III.) 680. Smokefan05 posted: 02.07.2011 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to the Packers. Well Earned win. Wow, states around the Great Lakes certainly are winning some of the big trophies aren't they? Blackhawks: NHL Packers: NFL Big Ben can't win them all, he still has time to get #3 before the helmet is hanged up. I also think Rogers will win another inside of 5-7 years. 681. Anonymous posted: 02.07.2011 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR changes points system, barely changes chase. Brian France, you are not removing the problem, which is the chase. Remove the chase. It was a brain fart, and like all lingering farts, and it needs to be fanned out of the room. 682. Smiff_99 posted: 02.07.2011 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #681 is one of the most casually hilarious posts I've ever read on here. Love it. 683. Eric posted: 02.07.2011 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan05, I agree with you that Rogers will win another Super Bowl inside of 5-7 years. This Packer team is much younger than the 1996 Packer team that won the super bowl in 1997 in key positions and better in some positions also. The 2010 Packers only had 6 players 30 or older compare to the 1996 Packers that had 12 Players 30 years old or older. The Packers defensively only have Charles Woodson and Ryan Pickett as players of 30 years old or older. 3 out of the 4 players on the offensive side that are 30 are at positions that are pretty deep in depth or a player that gotten replaced by a younger player during the season. The only concern offensively based on age is at left Tackle where Chad Clifton was 34 during the 2010 season. 684. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2011 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Aaron or Ben has won their last Super Bowl. I agree with you Eric. The Pack are set up for quite a run in the next few years. I think the Steelers will have to do some rebuilding as they have a bit of age in some key positions, but Ben is still young. If he doesn't get killed doing something stupid (like he almost did after his first title), get thrown in jail for a while (like he almost did before this season), or catch an STD (entirely possible), he'll be around when they reload. "Remove the chase. It was a brain fart, and like all lingering farts, and it needs to be fanned out of the room." Lol. In all seriousness, what needs to be fanned out of the room is Brian France. As long as he is CEO of this sport in which he doesn't see in a realistic light, we are in trouble. But there is promising news on the horizon. Brian has been obsessed with being a part of bringing an NFL franchise back to LA for a long time, even partnering with Magic Johnson at one point to try to make something happen. Now they are building a brand new fancy stadium in LA that has even already sold naming rights. So something is about to go down (looks like the Vikings, and we already know Brian gives two shits about tradition and loyalty). Maybe he'll get involved in that and leave NASCAR. 685. Smokefan05 posted: 02.08.2011 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ There are some fans who need to be faned out of NASCAR because they think know everything. Well if anyone out there can do better than Brian France, cough up about 2 billion dollars and start your own series and do what BF isn't doing. (and that is a serious challenge) 686. Spen posted: 02.08.2011 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And let stock car racing go the way of American open wheel? I don't think so. 687. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.09.2011 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem is, NASCAR caved in to the wrong ideas from complaining fans. I wouldn't say the Chase is directly the brainstorm from a fan, but Brian France and company probably heard of some variation of it, and they did the rest when it came to creating the Chase. There was really no reason to do that, as the point battles were fine the way they were. If they'd kept things as they were, the excitement would have still come. Maybe not every single year, but more often than not it would have come. 688. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2011 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The cha$e was created to compete against the NFL. They thought it would drive ratings in the fall when they have to go head to head with NFL games. And for a little while it did drive a spike in ratings as many tuned in to see what the heck all the fuss was about. But it was a short sighted decision that NASCAR has been paying for for the last 5 years. Brian's obsession with making NASCAr like stick and ball sports has really hurt it. He had a unique product and a unique fan base. He crapped all over both. "Well if anyone out there can do better than Brian France, cough up about 2 billion dollars and start your own series and do what BF isn't doing. (and that is a serious challenge)" Sorry bud, but my Daddy isn't Bill France Jr. Money doesn't grow on trees. I didn't inherit a bunch of riches like Brian did, and be given the keys to the family company even though I am very out of touch with it, as Brian is. Big Bill built it, Bill Jr filled it, Brian killed it. 689. Smokefan05 posted: 02.09.2011 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And let stock car racing go the way of American open wheel? I don't think so." Brian isn't stupid enough to do what Tony George did to AOW. TG had his head up his arse when he made the choice to create the IRL, BF isn't that dumb. "The problem is, NASCAR caved in to the wrong ideas from complaining fans. I wouldn't say the Chase is directly the brainstorm from a fan, but Brian France and company probably heard of some variation of it, and they did the rest when it came to creating the Chase. There was really no reason to do that, as the point battles were fine the way they were. If they'd kept things as they were, the excitement would have still come. Maybe not every single year, but more often than not it would have come." NASCAR heard the complaints from fans but plus Nextel (now Sprint) flashed a big bag of money in BFs face. Winston was gone, why would BF say no? Hello M-O-N-E-Y!!!!!!!!!!!! So he made it happen. "Brian killed it." If it's "killed" then why are you still here? BF isn't only who is killing NASCAR, they are others. If you blame BF for everything then i strongly disagree with that. It me it's a collective effort. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CG82QCa91k 690. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.09.2011 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have to think the Chase will be scraped next offseason if fan criticism continues and most importantly, poor ratings drives the decision. This is not to say the classic points system will return, but a modified version of the chase might. At least we have a 'WTF Nascar Moment' of 2011: Michael Annett. 691. Talon64 posted: 02.09.2011 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The NASCAR Truck Series ROTY class has officially gone insane, but in a great way. With Cole Whitt driving the #60 Toyota, there's now ELEVEN ROOKIES competing for ROTY honors in the Trucks this season, 9 of them full time. #22 Joey Coulter #15/51 Dusty Davis #1 Jeffrey Earnhardt #27 Chris Eggleston #46 Craig Goess #15/51 Justin Johnson #29 Parker Kligerman #20 Johanna Long #7 Miguel Paludo #8 Nelson Piquet #60-Cole Whitt Coulter with RCR, Kligerman as a Penske developmental driver and Cole Whitt as a Red Bull driver getting experience with Stacy Compton's Truck team. Then you've got Miguel Paludo and Nelson Piquet Jr. adding international flare with good teams, Red Horse Racing and KHI. Dusty Davis and Justin Johnson (with names like those I don't know if they're destined for greatness or futility) will be splitting time in the same equipment that Aric Almirola drove to 2nd in the standings last season. Johanna Long might have the potential to be one of the best female stock car drivers ever. Long-time ARCA team Eddie Sharp Racing's moving up to the Trucks with 2010 ARCA runner-up Craig Goess. And then you've got Jeffrey Earnhardt and Craig Eggleston who'll likely bring up the rear but the more the merrier. I'm probably looking forward to the new Truck season more than NNS and Cup right now. 692. Eric posted: 02.09.2011 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, you beaten me to the punch with Michael Annett. It sounded like Micheal was 4 drinks away from causing himself to die from a fatal amount of alcohol. The bigger question is how Annett was able to get into a car that drunk. 693. Smokefan05 posted: 02.09.2011 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ And people think Mikey Waltrip was dumb for doing it. Welcome to club Micheal, you've earned the "dumba$$ of the year" award already. 694. lordlowe posted: 02.09.2011 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrfanForever do you think that things in Nascar would be different If Big E had Survived the crash a decade ago at Daytona 695. dUDE gUY posted: 02.09.2011 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I dunno why, but I feel like this is the last year for the chase, a sort of last-ditch-effort to keep the shambling corpse of the chase alive. I just don't feel that the chase is what NASCAR, the fans, the drivers, or anyone else involved wants it to be, and it probably never will. But, I think they should keep the new points system they have now, minus the chase, but make winners take home 50 points instead of 43, second take home 45 points instead of 42, and third takes 42 instead of 41. All other points for positions stay the same. I'd also change the lap-led points a bit: 1 point for leading at least 5% of the race (and in case I need to clarify, no points for leading under 5% of the laps), one more point for leading the most laps, and one more point if the lap leader led at least 75% of the race. I think all this will help to motivate drivers to run up front as often as they can, and maybe make the race for P1 a lot more interesting. It's not perfect, as nothing is, but I think it will work better than the chase has. 696. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.09.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip drove drunk not once, but TWICE! It's apparent he didn't learn a damn thing from the 2007 incident. To me, it's wrong when anyone drives drunk no matter who they are. I was disappointed in AJ Allmendinger when he did it as well. But what Michael Annett managed to do is something I'd expect a racer from a top NASCAR series to know better than. It's called judgment, genius!!! Try using it sometime. It's good to see Nelson Piquet with a Truck ride this year. He showed promise last season, and hopefully he can continue that. 697. Smokefan05 posted: 02.10.2011 - 1:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #694 I know you addressed DSFF for that question but i'll give 2 answers then he can handle the rest. :P The Chase: wouldn't be here. The old-old system would still be here or atleast a modified version of it where winning meant more. The COT: Common template cars were coming weither Dale or anyone else liked it or not. the COT was in the works before Dale died. Even tho i think the COT would have been in the N'wide series first before it came to the Cup series. But common template cars where coming. The rest is all yours DSFF. :P 698. Smiff_99 posted: 02.10.2011 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent point on the Truck Series, Talon. That series is STACKED this year. Between all the rookies, plus returning veterans like Gaughan and Kvapil..........it's gonna be fun to watch. And the best part about it? I can actually watch all the races, seeing as though they're offering RaceBuddy for the Truck Series....ALL SEASON LONG! I, like a lot of others, don't have Speed Channel in my cable plan. This is awesome. 699. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2011 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you blame BF for everything then i strongly disagree with that. It me it's a collective effort." Yes, you are right, it has been a collective effort. But, in my opinion, it stems from Brian France and his half assed way of running the sport. He made a lot of short sighted decisions to spike profits (the cha$e, schedule re-alignment, crapping all over tradition) that have really hurt the sport long term as the "flavor of the month" fans found a different trend and the traditionalists were left steaming mad. He needs to be more involved in keeping his finger on the pulse of the sport. True story, in one of his press conferences, a reporter mentioned to him that fans are dissatisfied with the cha$e. Brian responded by saying something to the effect of "Really? Who told you that?". Yes it has also been hurt by unlikeable drivers, the COT (thanks Brett Bodine), the overall stagnation of the Series stemming from Cup guys taking over the developmental Series (which my favorite driver is contributing to) and racing costs skyrocketing at a time when the economy is in the shitter. But a more competent boss with a better understanding of the sport would have helped a LOT. "If it's "killed" then why are you still here?" Because I have followed NASCAR religiously since I was 5 years old. Probably earlier, but my memories don't really kick in until 1989. Over so many years, it simply became a part of me. It's hard to just give up on something after 21 years. And for me, there is always hope. Hope that things will become fun again. Supposedly NASCAR will radically redesign the cars sometime in the 2013 to 2014 range to be more manufacturer specific. Supposedly there is a huge effort to get an NFL team (or possibly even two) in LA, which Brian France will be all over trying to be involved, hopefully leaving NASCAR to be run by people with a better understanding of it. NASCAR is taking baby steps in giving the NWide Series its identity back which should help the stagnation. Could this all be a pipe dream? It probably is. But there is always hope. "DaleSrfanForever do you think that things in Nascar would be different If Big E had Survived the crash a decade ago at Daytona" There is no doubt. Again, it's somthing I try not to dwell on, but the NASCAR brass would have ultimately deferred to him during their crucial decision making period. I'm talking about 2003 through 2007, when the cha$e was instituted, the COT was dreamed up and implemented haphazardly, schedule realignment happened, and a gang of unlikeable drivers hit the scene. The fact is, until his death in 2007, nothing happened in NASCAR unless Bill France Jr signed off on it, even though Brian was the titular CEO. Another fact is that if Dale told Bill to jump, Bill would say "how high?". Especially once his health started fading. Hell, they used to talk to each other ON THE RADIO DURING RACES! Dale would have been all over Bill about some of these changes, and Bill would have said no. The cha$e wouldn't have happened. The COT (assuming NASCAR eventually took the safety thing seriously which took Dale's death for them to do) would not have been so ugly and unraceable. I agree Smoke, it would be here, but it would be a lot different. And these young punks would have had a knot yanked in their asses. Some of these drivers who are constantly whining about being bumped (Kyle, Carl, Denny) would have been given something to truly whine about. Other things: Dale and Harvick would have eventually tangled, Kevin would have tried to make a scene on pit road (a la Rudd at Richmond, Biffle at Bristol, hell you get the idea, I could go on forever), and Kevin would need emergency surgery to remove Dale's foot from his ass. Dale Jr would have won Cup titles (yes, plural) and at least 35 races by now. The fact is Dale Jr was terrified of his Dad. Dale would be riding his ass every second of the way making sure he reached his potential. June wouldn't be starting production companies, opening night clubs, staying out late every night drinking and collecting STDs, and basically being Peter Pan. Dale would have forced him to settle down and focus on the task at hand. Hell, June might even be married now, and there might even be a little Dale Earnhardt III around. Rusty's career would have ended much better. Dale always brought out the best in Rusty, and after his death, Rusty really hit the skids (although his last season was pretty good). I think Dale would have hired his good friend Ken Schrader at DEI like he did for Mikey, possibly to replace Mikey, and Kenny would have ended his Cup career on a winning note. 700. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2011 - 10:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now here is the ultimate "what if Dale Sr survived" hypothetical: According to what I have read, the consensus seems to be that Dale, in the 2001 pre-season, told those around him he felt like he had 3 years of racing left in him. That would have him driving through 2003. Because I am biased, I think he would have won the 2001 Cup championship. I base this on Harvick's performance as a rookie, made even more remarkable when considering he wasn't expecting to be in that situation. Considering that was one of only three multi win seasons for him in ten years, in his rookie season, and he finished 9th in points despite running one less race and he had a bad late season slump resulting from physical and emotional exaustion from running both Series and the crew hitting an emotional wall resulting from Dale's death, I'm guessing Dale's talent, determination, and newfound health (he finally had surgery before 2000 to fix injuries from his 1996 Dega wreck, that was one stubborn SOB) would have carried RCR to yet another title. If he could have dragged RCR to championships in '86, '91, '93, and '94 (which he did, RCR was nowhere near the best team those years), he could have done it again. Anyways, back to the 2001 pre season. People st DEI kept asking Dale if he'd ever drive full time in his own cars. His answer was stuff like "you guys can't afford me" and "I could never do that to Richard". Yes, it is true he had a fierce loyalty to Richard for picking him up in 1984 when people were really wondering if he was truly elite after 3 really bad seasons from '81 to '84. But he also had a fierce loyalty to winning. RCR opened their new shop in 2002, added a third team, and struggled. They had a really good summer in 2003, but were nowhere near where they were on 2001 as far as brute speed. Meanwhile, DEI caught fire. Those were some really good cars being produced from 2000 through 2007, they just had too much driver drama to do much with it. So here is the question: Would Dale have looked at his cars, saw how fast they were, saw an opportunity to do some more big time winning, and decided to run 3 or 4 more years at his own company? And what if the answer was yes? Look at how good DEI was in 2004. What if Dale Earnhardt were driving for them? I think he definitely wins the '04 title. Yeah, he'd be 53 years old, but Harry Gant won a lot races at roughly the same age. Mark has done well in his 50s, and Bobby Allison won races with a mediocre team at the same age. And hell, what about '06? June finished Top 5 in that equipment. Here is my biased projection for Dale's career, assuming he stays healthy, and moves to DEI in 2004: 2001: 6 wins (Atlanta, Dega, Coke 600, Chicago, Bristol Night, Richmond), 1st in points (without Ray Evernham, Jeff didn't have the same confidence. I think Dale beats him with fast cars) 2002: 3 wins (Spring Darlington, Michigan, Bristol Night), 6th in points (new shop, new team added for RCR, cars not good. basically a repeat of 1997 or 1999) 2003: 4 wins (Dega, Indy, Bristol Night, not the last Southern 500), 2nd in points (would have made Kenseth sweat, but would be hard to beat his consistency that year) 2004: 6 wins (Daytona 500, Atlanta, Spring Martinsville, Southern 500, Fall Dega, Phoenix), 1st in points (with no cha$e he wins this one by a long shot) 2005: 3 wins (Spring Darlington, Coke 600, Fall Atlanta), 2nd in points (June and Mikey made DEI look a lot worse than they really were this year. still would have had nothing for Smoke) 2006: 4 wins (Martinsville, Spring Richmond, Summer Cali, Fall Charlotte), 1st in points (kinda like '91, Dale wins this one by default. Nobody really posted a huge year) 2007: 3 wins (Martinsville, Bristol Night, Fall Dega), 3rd in points (nice swan song for Dale as he finishes a distant 3rd to Gordon, the champ this year, and JJ. remember, no cha$e) There it is, my biased projection for Dale's career. 701. Smokefan05 posted: 02.10.2011 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "True story, in one of his press conferences, a reporter mentioned to him that fans are dissatisfied with the cha$e. Brian responded by saying something to the effect of "Really? Who told you that?". Yes it has also been hurt by unlikeable drivers, the COT (thanks Brett Bodine), the overall stagnation of the Series stemming from Cup guys taking over the developmental Series (which my favorite driver is contributing to) and racing costs skyrocketing at a time when the economy is in the shitter. But a more competent boss with a better understanding of the sport would have helped a LOT." I agree with this. Too me Mike Helton is more Qu'd for running NASCAR than BF is. (even Humpy Wheeler is more Qu'd then BF is) If BF can run anything, it's media. That is his forte and that is what he should be doing right now. However i'd like to clarify that "collective effort" stood for BF, Media, sponsers, TV cable Co. and fans. "2001: 6 wins (Atlanta, Dega, Coke 600, Chicago, Bristol Night, Richmond), 1st in points (without Ray Evernham, Jeff didn't have the same confidence. I think Dale beats him with fast cars) 2002: 3 wins (Spring Darlington, Michigan, Bristol Night), 6th in points (new shop, new team added for RCR, cars not good. basically a repeat of 1997 or 1999) 2003: 4 wins (Dega, Indy, Bristol Night, not the last Southern 500), 2nd in points (would have made Kenseth sweat, but would be hard to beat his consistency that year) 2004: 6 wins (Daytona 500, Atlanta, Spring Martinsville, Southern 500, Fall Dega, Phoenix), 1st in points (with no cha$e he wins this one by a long shot) 2005: 3 wins (Spring Darlington, Coke 600, Fall Atlanta), 2nd in points (June and Mikey made DEI look a lot worse than they really were this year. still would have had nothing for Smoke) 2006: 4 wins (Martinsville, Spring Richmond, Summer Cali, Fall Charlotte), 1st in points (kinda like '91, Dale wins this one by default. Nobody really posted a huge year) 2007: 3 wins (Martinsville, Bristol Night, Fall Dega), 3rd in points (nice swan song for Dale as he finishes a distant 3rd to Gordon, the champ this year, and JJ. remember, no cha$e)" 10 total champoionships? I think after winning #8 he'd be going GT car racing. I seem to remember Dale saying "i want to go run Sebring, Le Mans." I think he'd be doing part-time NASCAR racing and full time GT car racing. Also he had a hell of a retirement waiting for him, grand kids to care of, keeping his son in line, etc. By 03 he'd be retired fully from NASCAR enjoying life and retirement. But how would RCR look (if) Dale was still alife from 01-03? #3: His number and car. Period. #31: Since mike got hurt at Chicago, Robby toke over and brought the car to VL. And Lowes might have stay as well #29: Harvicks car. Period. After Dale Retired *again 'what if.'* #3: wouldn't be in use unless Dale would do a race here and there. Or it'd be re-numbered for some other driver. #31: If Richard couldn't have gotten Robby to stay then Dale might have. (i think Dale and Robby would have gotten along) #29: still Harvicks car 702. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2011 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However i'd like to clarify that "collective effort" stood for BF, Media, sponsers, TV cable Co. and fans." And I agree. "10 total champoionships? I think after winning #8 he'd be going GT car racing." It's possible he could have done that. That's the thing about Dale, nobody could figure him out. It's just, in my personal opinion, he loved winning. I just read a story about an interview with Andy Pilgrim, whom he finished 2nd in class with at the '01 24 Hours of Daytona. 2nd place in his first venture in sports car racing, pretty good right? According to Andy, Dale leaned in his ear after the race and said "2nd place sucks, doesn't it?". I have a hard time seeing him walking away from the chance to be the dominator again. I think he got his confidence back during the 2000 season when he had better cars and better health. But again, he was a hard guy to figure out. Nobody can say for certain. That is just a guess on my part. And as far as the 10 championships, I think if Pearson had run the full schedule from the time he entered NASCAR full time until the early 80s, he'd have 10 championships. And as far as RCR, Harvick was gonna run the #30 AOL car full time in 2002 forward. And Dale wanted Jeff Burton to take over the #3 car once he retired. Kinda odd considering Burton is the ultimate "I will not put my nose in a compromising position no matter what" guy (see the 1997 Southern 500, if Gordon tried that on Earnhardt, who was in the hospital blacked out at the time, they'd still be pulling pieces of his rainbow colored sheet metal out of Darlington's wall), and Dale was the ultimate "I'm putting my nose here, and it's staying here, if you cut me off you will end up in the wall and hell, I might just run over from behind just to show you who the baddest SOB out here is" guy. 703. Torlit posted: 02.18.2011 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) o-o 704. Cooper posted: 05.04.2011 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2010 Final Standings by Driver Rating --Driver rating essentially takes all luck out of the equation and depicts who were the best drivers in each race. I sorted every race of the chase by driver rating and assigned the points accordingly to where they finished in driver rating. 1. Jimmie Johnson 6584 2. Denny Hamlin -57 3. Kevin Harvick -65 4. Kyle Busch -131 5. Carl Edwards -179 6. Matt Kenseth -217 7. Jeff Burton -263 8. Greg Biffle -274 9. Tony Stewart -307 10. Jeff Gordon -328 11. Clint Bowyer -403 12. Kurt Busch -410 The championship was actually closer then it should've been. Kyle Busch ran the 4th best of all chase cars but his bad luck at Fontana and Kansas relegated him to an 8th real points finish. 705. martin5fan posted: 05.31.2011 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How come Johnson has better cars than gordon jr and martin. They are at the same team so Hendrick should make sure all cars are equal instead of rig Nascar 706. Smokefan posted: 05.31.2011 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nascar is going to rig Nascar by Jimmie Johnson winning all of these championships. In Johnson become a six time champion Nascar Will not have any fans Which could hurt Nascar If Jimmie Johnson doesn't race for a year anybody has a chance of winning In 07 I was getting tired of Johnson and Gordon winning races and now i wish Jeff Gordon and win races cuz of Kyle Busch and Jimmie 707. Eric posted: 06.29.2011 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson is ruining Nascar. He might be a good driver but is ruining the series He's in a hurry to become the alltime champion in the cup series Last year did't evan show alot of strength in the first 26 races in his 5 championship until the chase In 2008 Looked like Kyle Busch was gonna be the factor until he started having problems and Johnson Didn't And last year Hamlin had a great shot at winning the title but of the last race He had to not to good so Johnson can win it Stupid Nascar It sucks now 708. Daniel posted: 05.21.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #46 Michael McDowell Out using fastest 43: #7 Kevin Conway 709. kup posted: 05.24.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS - Universal Points System - after all races of 2010 Cup Points for a driver = His Distance /devided/ His Average Finish Dis/AvFn = Driver = KM-Miles / AV-FN 1659 Kevin Harvick 14436 / 8,7 1205 Carl Edwards 14221 / 11,8 1152 Jimmie Johnson 14057 / 12,2 1135 Matt Kenseth 14522 / 12,8 1097 Denny Hamlin 14154 / 12,9 1059 Jeff Gordon 14189 / 13,4 1042 Tony Stewart 14482 / 13,9 1013 Kyle Busch 14180 / 14,0 982 Clint Bowyer 14143 / 14,4 710. Jeff Gordon's Tomahawk Sign posted: 06.19.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) By total points, Harvick's year was the second best in the 36-race era, only behind Jeff Gordon's 30-top-10 season in 2007. Neither of them won the title. And you wonder why people hate the Chase. 711. edwards19 posted: 02.06.2015 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) perfect driver rating for carl! 712. kup posted: 11.02.2017 - 10:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS: universal points system. Driver's UPoints = Miles / Aver.Finish 2010 UPS: # Driver UPts = Miles / AF 1 Kevin Harvick 1659 = 14436 / 8.7 2 Carl Edwards 1205 = 14221 / 11.8 3 Jimmie Johnson 1152 = 14057 / 12.2 4 Matt Kenseth 1135 = 14522 / 12.8 5 Denny Hamlin 1097 = 14154 / 12.9 713. kup posted: 11.16.2017 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TOTAL: UPS! 62 years 1949-2010: Dale Earnhardt 8 in: '80, '86, '87, '89, '91, '93, '94, '95. Richard Petty 7 in: '63, '64, '67, '71, '72, '75, '79. Lee Petty 5 in: '50, '52, '54, '58, '59. Jeff Gordon 5 in: '98, '01, '04, '07, '09. David Pearson 4 in: '66, '68, '69, '76. Cale Yarborough 3 in: '74, '77, '78. Bobby Allison 3 in: '81, '82, '83. Mark Martin 3 in: '90, '97, '02. Buck Baker 2 in: '56, '57. Rex White 2 in: '60, '61. Terry Labonte 2 in: '84, '96. Bill Blair 1 in: '49. Fonty Flock 1 in: '51. Herb Thomas 1 in: '53. Tim Flock 1 in: '55. Joe Weatherly 1 in: '62. Ned Jarrett 1 in: '65. Bobby Isaac 1 in: '70. Benny Parsons 1 in: '73. Darrell Waltrip 1 in: '85. Bill Elliott 1 in: '88. Alan Kulwicki 1 in: '92. Dale Jarrett 1 in: '99. Bobby Labonte 1 in: '00. Matt Kenseth 1 in: '03. Tony Stewart 1 in: '05. Jimmie Johnson 1 in: '06. Carl Edwards 1 in: '08. Kevin Harvick 1 in: '10. 714. Wil posted: 03.22.2019 - 2:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ?That sound you hear is the hammering of the n-nail...of the final...c-coffin...of the Chase contenders hopes...of upsetting Jimmie Johnson.? - Marty Reid. Let's just say ESPN messed up by not having Allen Bestwick in the booth a little sooner. 715. TeamDCRfan posted: 03.22.2019 - 11:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) At one time, Marty was a decent lead commentator. But what happened, I got no idea. 716. kup posted: 01.05.2020 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS: Universal Points System. Driver's UPointS = Miles / Aver.Finish 2010 UPS _ Driver = Miles / AF 1659 _ Kevin Harvick = 14435.71 / 8.7 1205 _ Carl Edwards = 14220.54 / 11.8 1152 _ Jimmie Johnson = 14056.85 / 12.2 1135 _ Matt Kenseth = 14521.8 / 12.8 1097 _ Denny Hamlin = 14153.88 / 12.9 717. Mile501 posted: 06.08.2020 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt Kenseth finished this race on the lead lap--something he did in nearly every race during the 2010 Sprint Cup Series season. In fact, he completed 10,770 laps in 2010--the highest number of laps completed by a driver during any season in the modern era. Kenseth completed all but 8 laps that were ran that year, though he was also aided by several factors that resulted in more laps being run in 2010 than normal. There were 7 green-white-checkered finishes which resulted in 57 extra laps being run (including the longest-ever races in terms of laps run at Atlanta, Talladega, and Pocono), no rain-shortened races, and the only 600 km race ever run at Phoenix. For anyone curious, the top 2 drivers in this category prior to the modern era were: 1969 - David Pearson - 14,270 laps 1964 - Richard Petty - 14,041 laps 718. SweetRich posted: 07.08.2020 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The final race in The NASCAR Cup Series for Aric Almirola until The 2012 Daytona 500. 719. SweetRich posted: 07.08.2020 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard's final race competing for Richard Petty Motorsports as well as in a Ford until The 2018 Daytona 500 when he began his two-year stint driving for The Wood Brothers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. 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