|| *Comments on the 2011 Auto Club 400:* View the most recent comment <#171> | Post a comment <#post> 1. BON GORDON posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to go harvick! And jeff gordon sucks this year. 2. Anonymous posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Epic finish! 3. JP88 posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MR. WHERE DID HE COME FROM!!! Amazing 3-car battle for the win, not sure what happened to Tony but he was pissed. Vickers ran well and got a top-10 and if it wasn't for Cassill staying out I think Jr. would of had a top-10 too as he got stacked up dropping to like 18th when Cassill spun the tires. Cassill though ran a very respectable race and came home 24th. Logano continues to have issues and a penalty dropped him to 25th, he hasn't finished better than 23rd this year. 4. mrittenhouse84 posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Crappy race, But WOW what a Finish! Harvick has a knack for winning when the Finish is exciting, "Mr Where did he come From" indeed 5. Anonymous posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Great finish to the race. I am waiting for DaleSrFanForever claiming Kyle Busch choked in the final laps though. DaleSrFanForever says that stuff about Kyle Busch, Hamlin, and Kevin Harvick in the past when they lose a race that they should have won. DaleSrFanForever is biased because he doesn't say about Jimmie Johnson when he loses a race that he should have won. 6. Schroeder51 posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Very boring race throughout...until after the final restart. Typical California. 7. Anonymous85 posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin Harvick Passes the Dark Lord of the sith to win the California 400 8. lugnut posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCR has not been affected at all by the addition of the 4th team. All 4 RCR cars ran up in the top 10 for a large portion of the event. Unfortunately the short runs and restarting on the bottom line killed Burton and Menard's day. All 4 should have been top 10. 9. Eric posted: 03.27.2011 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch dominated the race, but lost the handle on the car. JBR has to be concern with their engine problems since the beginning of the season. This is a big problem if it doesn't stop by Texas Motor Speedway weekend. Kevin Harvick has been in some of the closest finishes in Nascar and this is no exception. Dale Earnhardt Jr. gets his best finish at Auto Club since he finish 11th in the 2008 fall race. 10. Bronco posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First ever last lap pass at ACS, and the fewest laps led by a race winner. This track goes back to only one date for the first time since 2003. Harvick wins one with his Nationwide sponsor, and his past five wins have come on tracks 2 miles or longer in length. Jeff Gordon is running like crap this year, despite his Phoenix win. And Bayne can't seem to stay off the wall after winning the 500. 11. HelmannsRealMayonaise posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Great finish to the race. I am waiting for DaleSrFanForever claiming Kyle Busch choked in the final laps though." While we all know DaleSrFanForever is a biased hack who interprets reality in ways not thought possible by rational human beings, I don't think anyone could look at the end of that race and say Kyle choked. He just got beat, and admitted it in post race press conference. There is a difference between choking and just plain getting beat, even if you had the best car most of the day. He didn't quite have the best car on the final run, Johnson probably did, and then the battle between Busch and Johnson allowed Harvick to get close enough to pull a move to win. 12. Anonymous85 posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well no offense to DaleSrFanForever I was Pulling for Harvick to win not because I dislike Johnson I think he is a nice guy but Johnson has got to have one of the most boring personalities in all of Nascar and If Johnson had won his victory lane interview would have put most people to sleep P.S I am starting To think that Jeff Gordon's Phoenix win was a fluke because since then has done nothing 13. 12345 posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Horrible race saved by an amazing finish. Harvick will never win a title but beating JJ will help his confidence. Also good job Kyle for not having a fit. But maybe DSRFanForever has a point about him choking when the pressure is up. 14. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) People often dislike Kyle Busch because of his driving style or attitude, but Ive got to admit its FOX Sports and ESPN that makes me hate him. Good run by Red Bull finishing a great weekend for the company with Vettels F1 win in Australia. After this race last year its good to see Harvick beat Jimmie and Kyle, 1 lap lead all day and its the most important one. 15. Android posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No he doesn't have a point. Did Kyle choke at Bristol last week? No. His car was fading the last 50 laps of the race, and Stewart was closing in rapidly. I'm surprised he held the lead that long tbh. He also gave a mature interview, while Tony stormed off and declined one. 16. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This track may have boring racing most of the day, but usually when it comes down to the finish, we have 2-3 cars battling it out for the win. Still, I think this track is best off with only one date on the Cup schedule. Not a Harvick fan, and I gave him a lot of crap for his attitude on his driver page, and for hitting the wall and losing this race last year but it was nice to see him sneak around Kyle and then snooker the win from Jimmie the same way Jimmie did to Bobby Labonte in the 2005 Coke 600. 17. 00andJoe posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hm. The 36 isn't using Gibbs engines, are they? 18. Smokefan05 posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually thought this was a decent race at ACS. Battles from front to back. (i'm in the minority in this but i honestly don't care) Happy aka "where did he come from" made his nickname known once again with his bullriding moving around 5-time for the win. Good to see Brian Vickers have a good run, made me happy to see him do well. I don't know what the hell is going on with Martin Truex Jr. but whatever it is, he can't finish up front. At Bristol he was doing well and faded. Did well here and faded again. Whatever is wrong they need to fix it. "He also gave a mature interview, while Tony stormed off and declined one." Well so much for new, nicer Tony. Now that they old one is back people are complaining again but him being a complete a$$ to people. -_- Is it just me, or did this race seem to fly by? 19. 18fan posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion, the best car on the last run won the race. Kyle's car went away visibly as I could see from my seat at pit exit how fast Tony closed on him. I also saw Harvick close up on Kyle and Jimmie and thought that he had a shot. Vickers had a top 5 car but got caught back in traffic a couple times and settled for 8th. When the command was given to start engines, I noticed first smoke out of the tailpipes of Kyle's car and later out of Denny's car. I wonder if that had something to do with Denny's DNF or if the smoke was unrelated to the problem he had in the race. 20. 00andJoe posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -The 09, 32 and 13 move into the top 35 in owner points starting next week at Martinsville, bumping out the 71, 37 and 38. The 71 is next in line to 'move up' if the 7 doesn't show, followed by the 36. -Paul Menard goes 5 for 5 in scoring track-career-best finishes in the first five races of 2011. 21. irony posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Incredible drive by Harvick. He restarted in the slower lane with most of the cars behind him on fresher tires and patiently waited to go to the outside on the last lap when most guys would of went low when they had the chance. It was almost as impressive as Hamlin's drive to the front in 2 laps at Marty last year. 22. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Crappy race, But WOW what a Finish!" My thoughts exactly. That was a hell of a finish in the last 3 laps. That was what NASCAR is all about. I went from thinking "Kyle is gonna hold them off" to "JJ's gonna grab yet another win" to "Holy Shit, Harvick passed him!". But the first 197 laps? Yuck. And the amount of commercials were ridiculous. Oh well, at least that allowed me to watch VCU stun Kansas, and watch a lot of the first half of my Tar Heels heartbreaking loss to UK. The biggest thing I'll take from this race: Looks like the 48 team figured out this new nose and car configuration on the intermediates really quickly. Remember, in 2008, the first year for the COT on intermediates, they struggled horribly on the intermediates at first, then got it together over the summer. And when they switched to the spoiler last year, they didn't pick up on it at first, and never really mastered it, but got good enough to win the cha$e last year. Now they already have it. 6 in a row is coming. 23. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A redemption of sorts for Harvick at California after finishing a close second to JJ in 2010 at the same track. 400 miles is the perfect length for this race. This race is a microcosm of Kyle Busch's career, dominate or run well, but once the heat is on (especially in the form of Jimmie Johnson) Kyle folds like a house of cards. I knew once Jimmie got within a second of him, "Mr. 91 Nascar Wins" would get passed. To lead over 3/4ths of a Cup race and lose it in the last five laps due to getting too tight, is all you need to know about Kyle's Cup career. 24. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, I have people waiting on me. I feel so....... proud I guess. "I am waiting for DaleSrFanForever claiming Kyle Busch choked in the final laps though." He didn't choke, his car lost the handle late. Where do you get I'd think that was a choke? "DaleSrFanForever says that stuff about Kyle Busch, Hamlin, and Kevin Harvick in the past when they lose a race that they should have won." It's only a choke when they hit the wall, let their temper get the best of them, speed on pit road late, spin out on Lap 24 with a rocket ship for a race car, or a variety of other unforced errors with a great car. Kyle just got passed. "DaleSrFanForever is biased because he doesn't say about Jimmie Johnson when he loses a race that he should have won." Dude, JJ has choked CHAMPIONSHIPS away (2004). "While we all know DaleSrFanForever is a biased hack who interprets reality in ways not thought possible by rational human beings" That's some high and mighty talk from somebody that named themselves after a mayonaise. 25. 00andJoe posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) - I believe the #37 should be listed as car owner Larry Gunselman now. Since his Max Q Motorsports team is running the car (using Front Row's equipment) (and, I believe, has been doing so since Phoenix?). - Owner standings using only each team's top-finishing car in each race: 1. Gibbs, 207 2. Roush, 205 3. Hendrick, 204 4. Childress, 197 5. Stewart-Hass, 190 6. Penske, 177 7. Petty, 169 8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 164 9. Red Bull, 162 10. Waltrip, 148 11. JTG-Daughtery, 121 12. Front Row, 105 13. Phoenix, 102 14. Wood Brothers, 96 15. Furniture Row, 92 16. FAS Lane, 77 17. Robby Gordon, 69 18. Germain, 67 19. TRG, 61 20. Baldwin, 58 21. Gunselman, 44 (corrected from before, as per the note at top) 22. Rusty Wallace, 24 23. Whitney, 20 24. NEMCO, 13 25. K-Automotive, 9 26. HP, 9 26. Watto posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He also gave a mature interview, while Tony stormed off and declined one." That seems a little harsh to say.. I mean, Tony has had moments like that, but he finished 13th and most of those guys park the car at the trailer and walk inside. The top 5 plus other notable good runs usually take precedence. 27. Anonymous posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF: "It's only a choke when they hit the wall, let their temper get the best of them, speed on pit road late, spin out on Lap 24 with a rocket ship for a race car, or a variety of other unforced errors with a great car. Kyle just got passed." Jarrett88fan: "This race is a microcosm of Kyle Busch's career, dominate or run well, but once the heat is on (especially in the form of Jimmie Johnson) Kyle folds like a house of cards." Wha......DaleSrFanForever being rational, and someone else saying something stupid about Kyle Busch?? *Head Explodes* 28. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, you are right about the 18 falling off in the second to last run, but the car really fell off once Jimmie took over second place with twenty laps to go. "Is it just me, or did this race seem to fly by?" That is good because the field gets strung out and its business as usual, until the late cautions. One of the better California race weekends given the nature of this track. Oh and Lance McGrew is the WORST crew chief at Hendrick, I'm very doubtful Mark Martin will win a race this year with his adjustments and strategy. Mark this down: Jr. and Letarte will win a race together before the #5 team will ever this year, unless (and highly unlikely) there is another crew chief swap. 29. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I knew once Jimmie got within a second of him, "Mr. 91 Nascar Wins" would get passed." Must have been a tough call, seeing as how Jimmie was faster. Do you also see rain and predict things will get wet? Me and you should go to Vegas together, we'd clean up! 30. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How bout those Tar Heels getting over the hump...not! Having been born in southeastern Kentucky and living around Cincinnati, there are so many Kentucky and Ohio State fans in my region. Go Big Blue and Bulldogs too! 31. Anonymous posted: 03.27.2011 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another snoozer except for the end, can we have the Auto Club 40 next year? 32. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Another snoozer except for the end, can we have the Auto Club 40 next year?" I second that. Wouldn't make much of a difference since the epic racing doesn't occur until the final laps. Speaking of Mark Martin, he'll be making his 800th Cup start next week at Martinsville. 33. 18fan posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting stat: Regan Smith's average start is 5.8 and his average finish is 25.8. Yikes! Also, Carl Edwards has the biggest point lead of anyone this year, 9 points. That is about right since he has had the best year. 34. Android posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So your saying Shrub choked JarrettFan? He really choked last week at Bristol with Crazy Carl and JJ breathing down his neck. His car just gave up noticeably the last 50 laps of the race. After the 2nd to last pit stop he had a 6.5 second lead. By the end of that run it was 1.5 second lead with Stewart closing. I was surprised he was able to hold on for that long. Did anybody hear what happened with Kurt? Supposedly more "interesting" radio traffic over the #22's radio. 35. 12345Dude posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He also gave a mature interview, while Tony stormed off and declined one." I don't blame him at all. Atleast he didn't get interviewed, and then start acting like a 2 year old. I still think the mature Tony is still here. 36. Evan posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A boring race...until the end and I am happy that Kyle Busch led the most and still did not win. I'm glad Kevin Harvick got by them at the end and gave them a run for the money. I'm glad this race ended the way the it did because Busch could have easily won as easy as he could have lost it! A couple other things I noticed, the FOX Ticker Graphics had the cars that were out of the race in black and white...anyone notice this is in preceding broadcasts? Good run for the Red Bull Energy Boys, they covered Tony Stewart like a sandwich at one part of the race. Whoever is saying Kyle choked this one away is wrong, the car just did not handle well and Kyle could not control with those guys around him, notice he could pull away on the longer runs, but that was a short run. I'm glad he had a humbling experience today. His brother did terrible today, Answering Android's question, Kurt Busch and crew must not have got the handle on the car and the way Kyle Busch was running, Kurt must have been frustrated with his team, that's all I can say. Sure would love to hear that radio transmission though. Also could someone please explain why Clint Bowyer's car appeared to be unsponsored? Or did they have one for this race? On more thing, Ryan Newman has continued a good run of consistency and he deserves a good shoutout, however can Ryan keep it going? Auto Club did not hit a home run with this race but they at least got a good finish, this race still needs to be shortened a little more. 37. Cooper posted: 03.27.2011 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great Finish. Nothing else that I can say that has already been said. Darrell Waltrip predicted Harvick would win with like 4 to go, and I was thinking where the heck is Harvick, and then I seen the black rocket flying through there. Harvick is turning into a perennial championship contender again. I thought the race had the possibility of going green all the way through but a suspicious debris caution that wasn't shown ruined that chance. 38. potatosalad48 posted: 03.27.2011 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) great finish, even though i didn't see any of the race until later. 39. Madison posted: 03.27.2011 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best race I've attended here in a while. There was a lot of side by side racing when it wasn't a long green flag run [Which TV does no justice on whatsoever. Just thought I'd add that.] And that finish... how awesome! My secondary man Harvick! Glad to see someone other than whiner and robot win. 5th race of the year, 5th different winner. Happy so far :D 40. Hello Newman posted: 03.27.2011 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like Ryan Newman is trying to be this year's Kevin Harvick with these consistent runs. Last year Harvick started off with consistent runs every week after missing the chase in 2009 and Newman is trying to do the same thing after missing the Chase last year. I'm not saying Newman will be a title contender this year but he has sure been consistent to start this year off . Newman only needs one more top 5 finish to match his total from all of last season and he has already lead more laps this year than he did all season last year. 41. 00andJoe posted: 03.27.2011 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #33 - I believe Clint Bowyer's car was representing two non-profit organisations. 42. Watto posted: 03.27.2011 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No one's really saying that Kyle choked. It just came out of left field from Anonymous in post #5 who felt the need to rant about something that wasn't even said and about somebody who hadn't even posted... Anyway, I think that phrase is incredibly overused. Kyle didn't choke, he just got beat, outdriven, etc. It wasn't that the car just started sucking at the end, but other drivers got better and picked up their pace after getting their cars better. Harvick was FAST even before he got that caution but he was mired further back in traffic. The best car rarely wins the race. When Kyle wins, it's all driver. When Kyle gets beat, it's cause his car wasn't as good as his competitors. There's a lot to be said for clean air, too. Kyle looked significantly worse behind Jimmie and then Kevin at the end, and it's mostly because he was overdriving his race car at that point. 43. 00andJoe posted: 03.27.2011 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -Landon Cassill's best career finish. 44. Android posted: 03.27.2011 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Radio chatter: On Lap 113, Kurt Busch radios his team: "You can take this back to (technical director) Tom German and tell him to shove it up his...". He stopped himself before going any further." Didn't Kurt, Addington, and Penske have a meeting recently as well? 45. dUDE gUY posted: 03.27.2011 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I enjoyed the majority of this race. A lot of side by side racing and an awesome finish to top it all off. Kyle led just over 3/4 of the race, but his car let him down a little when it counted. Great run for Vickers, who ran top 5 for a lot of the race before finishing 8th. Ryan Newman has finished 5th in three of his last four races, and needs just one more top five to tie his top 5 total from last year. All in all, a pretty decent race. 46. RR posted: 03.27.2011 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said this in last year's California race page, and I'll say it here: I like races at California. Today's race wasn't a crashfest with artificial drama added. I cannot stand a race where a sizable portion of laps are ran under caution. Besides the obvious fact that a caution means no racing, I feel that cautions ruin the natural rhythm of the race and the races seem to drag on forever. I really liked the fact that the entire run was permitted to play out; it allowed one to see the way cars would go forward and backward based on how their car was set up. People claim they dislike follow-the-leader style racing, yet they bash California. The track is so wide, and provides several different lines for the drivers to choose. There was a decent amount of passing (admittedly not for the lead), and one could see drivers advancing through the field as the race progressed. And the finish has in part created by the nature of the track. Looking at the comments so far, it looks like I'm in the minority. 47. chuckp posted: 03.27.2011 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As others have posted, an exciting finish to a mostly boring race. Glad to see Kenny Schrader in the race even though his car was woefully slow. Would like to root for Regan Smith but he starts up front every race and then drops from sight. I don't know if he's qualifying mediocre equipment really well, or if he (and his team) are taking good cars and somehow making them look mediocre. 48. potatosalad48 posted: 03.27.2011 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) utterly shocked the attendace was 88,000 after what's happened over the past few years. 49. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.27.2011 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "When Kyle wins, it's all driver. When Kyle gets beat, it's cause his car wasn't as good as his competitors." Come on man, let's not make this all about Busch. Let's give Harvick his due, it's 15th win and he made up for letting this race slip away last year. I think that's pretty cool, even if I obviously would rather see Johnson win. Harvick won this one fair and square. Also I probably should check this before I post, but I believe this 15th win ties Harvick with Ernie Irvan. 50. RR posted: 03.27.2011 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith seems to be the type of driver that can qualify well, keep a car in the top 35, and not tear up equipment. While he hasn't driven in any top-notch equipment, he's never really stood out in any ride he's had. He was throughly mid pack in the Rensi car in which Jason Keller had sixth top tens the year before. He did little in the #01; not the best ride by any means, but a ride capable of more than a 28th place average finish. He's had decent runs in the #78, but he's never had a run that's really been impressive. And yes, I know he should have won Talladega, but... it's Talladega. His fortunes could improve with his team's, but I don't really think he's a great talent. 51. Watto posted: 03.27.2011 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harvick won this one fair and square." I agree. The quote you took from me was sarcasm based around what some Kyle fans have been saying. Kyle got flat out beat and outdriven, yet people are making it out to be the car's fault. He didn't randomly start sucking, Harvick actually got his car much faster towards the end than it was earlier on. 52. Smokefan05 posted: 03.27.2011 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with #50. Regan seems to be a decent driver who can get the car home but not a threat to win. however he didn't win "that" Talladega race, the #15 did. ;-) If Front Row wants to get it's first win, it'll have to be with another driver. The team is getting better but they will need a better driver. 53. Rusty posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fontana is a track that provides multiple racing grooves. The problem is the racing gets so spread out quickly that the grooves don't matter and you have long stretches of almost nothing going on. Pocono has the same problem except it doesn't have grooves. Restarts at this track are thrilling, but after 5 laps things get kinda boring. 54. Jarrett88fan posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly Watto. "Kyle didn't choke, he just got beat, outdriven, etc. It wasn't that the car just started sucking at the end, but other drivers got better and picked up their pace after getting their cars better. Harvick was FAST even before he got that caution but he was mired further back in traffic. The best car rarely wins the race. When Kyle wins, it's all driver. When Kyle gets beat, it's cause his car wasn't as good as his competitors. There's a lot to be said for clean air, too. Kyle looked significantly worse behind Jimmie and then Kevin at the end, and it's mostly because he was overdriving his race car at that point." I distinctly remember Mike Joy saying at one point just before the last pit stops that JJ and Harvick had the fastest cars on the race track at that point. However, they were so far behind Busch and Stewart, they needed that caution for Lally's spin to catch up and apply the pressure to Busch. Kyle didn't magically choke when Stewart closed on him, but for some reason other than poor handling at the end (which ultimately caused his fade to 3rd place at the end), Busch seems to get passed by Jimmie Johnson at crucial points during races. This race, 2010 Sept. Dover, etc. Kyle Busch was fading before JJ closed in and eventually passed him, but I think knowing through his potter that the #48 was there, possible made Kyle overdrive an already fading race car. Snaking down the backstretch and frontstretch with one of the best closers (only to have another great closer pass him in the final turn) in tail probably had some degree of influence in how the race concluded. 55. Matt G posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank You Andy Lally for being so terrible. Without that spin this race would've been a complete disaster. Everything that happened after Lally's spin was tremendous though. 56. TLarson83 posted: 03.28.2011 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That last lap pass by Kevin Harvick was awesome, getting up to Jimmie Johnson's bumper and putting on the pressure than taking him over was a great way to end this. Harvick seems to have a flair for the dramatics. I'm confused on Regan Smith, him and that 78 team qualify awesome, then he sinks to the back of the pack, it's almost like he's afraid of tearing up the equipment (which he's known for being an extremely clean racer when it comes to staying out of wrecks and off the wall). Another decent run for Paul Menard and the 27 team, he hung up by the leaders almost all day, and came home with a Top15. I think he might be a legitimate Chase contender this year, him and Slugger are clicking. I always catch myself watching the ticker to see where the 27 is running. Glad Landon Cassil actually got to run a full cup race, good for him. 57. CFob posted: 03.28.2011 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two huge positives from todays race: 1) We saw an exciting finish, and a rare last lap pass on a track that traditionally producers start to finish snoozers. 2) After today, we don't have to think about Fontana again until 2012! 58. 18fan posted: 03.28.2011 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no way the attendance was 88,000. I was there and they covered whole sections for Auto Club advertising and there were many empty seats and the place only seats like 90,000. The finish looked like it would be the five time champion(Jimmie) proving why he is the five time champ with a signature run to outdrive the guy who dominated the race and has a history of struggling to close out races(Kyle) until the master of the last lap pass(Kevin) came up and outdrove the five time champion. Imagine if the battle between Kyle, Carl, and Jimmie had stayed close for longer at Bristol. We could've had 2 great three car battles for the win in as many races. The difference at the end for Kyle getting beat was a combination of his car going away, Kevin and Jimmie's cars coming on strong at the end and superior driving by Jimmie and even more so by Kevin. This was Harvick's third last lap pass for the win in his last five wins. 59. b4il3y posted: 03.28.2011 - 5:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "While we all know DaleSrFanForever is a biased hack who interprets reality in ways not thought possible by rational human beings" That's some high and mighty talk from somebody that named themselves after a mayonaise. That's the best you have newb? Your one of the ones I've been talking about that have no idea about NASCAR because you haven't watched... seriously. When did you start watching? Please tell me... if it's past 95 or so then don't even reply cuz you don't know.. 60. Anonymous posted: 03.28.2011 - 8:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan's car was apparently incredibly loose the whole race and they couldn't get a handle on it. He has the best average start in the series right now but they need to work on race trim. 61. John Royal posted: 03.28.2011 - 8:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the last lap I was rooting for Harvick with all my asses, but then he just bumped Johnson in back straight and I was like what the hell pass the guy don't push him. Damn, that push was just about upsetting Jimmies ill handling car in turns 3-4 to allowed Harvick to pass outside. It has the be one of the most ingenious winning moves I've seen. 62. Smiff_99 posted: 03.28.2011 - 8:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^hahaha exactly how many asses DO you have, John? 63. DieselDan posted: 03.28.2011 - 9:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another lame and boring NASCAR race that made me switch to cycling. 64. AnonymousEFR posted: 03.28.2011 - 9:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember, the person who leads the first lap at Auto Club has NEVER WON that race. 65. BON GORDON posted: 03.28.2011 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 5 drivers who are hot after 5 races: #1 Carl Edwards- Got the points lead on the strenght of a win and 4 Top 6 finishes. Also has two poles #2 Kyle Busch- Has a win and two other Top 3 finishes. If not for the wreck at Vegas he'd be the points leader. #3 Ryan Newman- Hasn't been this high in points since his win in the 2008 Daytona 500. Newman has 3 Top 5 finishes. #4 Jimmie Johnson- Strong so far dispite losing the race on the last lap yesterday to Kevin Harvick who by the way just missed the cut on my list. Johnson has 3 Top 3 finishes. #5 Paul Menard- Holy crap, who wouldve guessed he'd be 7th in points after 5 races. I didn't. Has two Top 10s and hasn't finished worse than 17th. 5 drivers who arent so hot after 5 races: #1 Denny Hamlin- After a strong second place points finish last year this year has me and him scratching our heads. He has a 7th at Vegas and thats it. His avg. finish is 22nd. #2 Jeff Burton- Finished a season high 15th yesterday. He has led only 5 laps so far this year. His avg. finish is 24th. #3 Jamie McMurray- After winning the Daytona 500 and having a solid year last year, this year hasn't been so good. His best finish so far is 18th in the Daytona 500. He has led only 11 laps. 4 Joey Logano- Joey had a promising end to last season however this year has been ugly. Three finishes of 23rd are his best finishes. 5 Jeff Gordon- I really hate to say it but this season hasnt been to good for Big Daddy. While he finally did get a win at Phoenix, he has struggled everywhere else. His avg. finish so far is 19th. 66. Android posted: 03.28.2011 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Superior driving? Meh. Remember Kyle said he had a tight car, so there was really nothing he could do besides back up the corner, and that's how JJ closed in. If Kyle was loose like JJ was, I doubt he loses. 67. blaneyfan36 posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Blaney! Start & Park!!! YEAH!!!!! :D 68. Smokefan05 posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Another lame and boring NASCAR race that made me switch to cycling." And yet you remain a fan of NASCAR. I think it's time for you make a change so that your weekends wouldn't fill with "lame and boring" racing. 69. 00andJoe posted: 03.28.2011 - 12:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ If you think he started-and-parked, clearly you didn't watch the race. 70. Ryan posted: 03.28.2011 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Best closer in racing." 71. lugnut posted: 03.28.2011 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am most likely in the minority here but I actually enjoyed the racing, not just the finish. I was nice to see some green flag pit stops with real long green flag runs to so who the comers and goers were. Once race suits this track real well. 72. Madison posted: 03.28.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TV does no justice to a race. It was actually enjoyable. I agree with post 71 73. Talon64 posted: 03.28.2011 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's only 5 races in but it's interesting how it looks like Jeff Gordon's done a complete 180 from his start to 2010. Early in 2010 he was competing for the win just about every race but couldn't close the deal. This year he goes out and wins the 2nd race of the season but has run like crap the last 3 races. There's still plenty of time for the #24 team to get back on track, but even if they don't the Phoenix win puts them in good position to make the Chase as a wild card. Stat Rundown: Kevin Harvick won his 15th career Cup race, tying him with Ernie Irvan for 48th on the all time wins list. It's Harvick's first win at his home track (born in Bakersfield, California), just his 3rd top five in 18 starts there, but they've all come in his last 6 starts. It's RCR's 95th win in Cup, just 5 away from joining Petty Enterprises, HMS, and Junior Johnson in the 100 win club. From what I've looked up RCR is 6th all time in wins for owners (Wood Brothers with 98, 96 for Holman-Moody). Jimmie Johnson gets his best finish of the season in 2nd. It's his 31st career runner-up, tied with Benny Parsons for 20th all time. It's Jimmie's 8th podium finish in his last 9 starts in Fontana, his 12th (not top 5's, podiums!) in 17 starts there (5.1 average finish). Rick Hendrick now has 777 career top fives as an owner in 2848 starts. Rick better hit the slots, pronto! This was the 19th time that Kyle Busch has led at least 100 laps in a Cup race; he's won 10 of those races, putting his win % at 52.6%. Kyle became the 30th driver in Cup history to lead at least 6000 laps in Cup. He's closing in on active drivers like Jeff Burton (6,386), brother Kurt (6,428) and Dale Earnhardt Jr. (6,721). It's Kyle's 1st top ten in his last 4 Fontana starts (previously had an 8 race top 10 streak). 5th top five in 14 starts. Matt Kenseth has back-to-back top fives for the first time in a year (3 in a row in races 3-5 last season). It's his 8th top five in 19 Fontana starts. Ryan Newman gets his 75th career top five in 337 Cup starts (44 in his first 116 starts, 31 in his last 221). It's his 4th straight top ten finish, his 2nd such streak in his last 15 starts dating back to last season. It's Newman's 2nd straight 5th place in Fontana, his 4th top five but only his 6th top ten in 17 starts. Carl Edward's sort-of-streak of 5 straight top 2 finishes in races he didn't wreck comes to an end. Carl takes the point lead for the 2nd time this season and 4th time in his career (led for 2 races in 2008). Clint Bowyer gets his first top 10 of 2010, his 7th in 11 Fontana starts. Brian Vickers has 2 top 10's and 3 finishes of 30th or worse this season. It's his 5th top ten in 14 Fontana starts, and his 16.1 average finish is his 4th best at any track. Kasey Kahne finishes 9th for a 2nd straight race, the first time in 22 starts he's had back-to-back top 10's. It's his 9th top ten in 14 Fontana starts. Juan Pablo Montoya made his 150th career Cup start, winning his 6th career pole and getting his 44th career top ten (2 wins, 19 top fives). This was his 4th straight race at Fontana starting 4th or better, getting his 2nd top ten in his last 4 starts and in 9 total. Landon Cassill finished a Cup race for just the 2nd time in 20 career starts, finishing a career-best 24th. Thanks to Bill Elliott's efforts in the first 4 races the #09 is 26th in the owners standings, and it looks like Cassill could be driving the #09 a lot more this season. 74. Talon64 posted: 03.28.2011 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Austin Dillon will make his first career Cup start this fall in a car prepared by Childress but run by Mike Curb (#98). Dillon has 1 top five and a 22.0 avg fin in 7 NNS starts, and 2 wins, 8 top fives, 17 top tens, 8 poles, a 5.4 avg start and 12.0 avg fin in 30 career Truck starts. 75. blaneyfan36 posted: 03.28.2011 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, yeah I'd say that I wasn't paying much attention. But then again, why would you. The way he was "racing", he should have start and parked!!! 76. 00andJoe posted: 03.28.2011 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Entry list for Martinsville is out. Highlights: -Landon Cassill has (finally!) made the switch to Cup for points collection. -45 cars entered, including: --Dennis Setzer in the #92 --Hermie Sadler in the #71 --Derrike Cope is in the #75 --#60 is listed as TBA --Robby Gordon's #7 is attending -David Ragan is still in the #6. I'm still predicing that if he doesn't win by Talladega we'll get Stenhouse replacing him at Richmond. 77. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.28.2011 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, the biggest loser in this race is Darrell Waltrip the commentator. And that is saying something because most of us can't stand him as it is. He spends the whole time talking about how Kyle is the best driver out there (true) and the smartest (not true). He talked about how Kyle gives such precise info to his crew chief, that is why they win so much. I have a few thoughts about this. First of all, this isn't Kyle's fault. I don't want to direct this at him. It is directed at 'ol DW. Secondly, if he is so good at both, then why does he never mount a charge for JJ at season's end? And third, what the hell happened in this race if it is truly Kyle? Kyle's team doesn't get the credit they deserve. And I blame that on people like DW. See, Darrell likes controversial drivers because he was one too. He way too fond of people like Kyle and Harvick, his other pet. The FOX guys always say that he is the "best closer in the business". I take nothing away from Kevin, when presented the opportunity, he does a great job of closing people out. The problem is he isn't in that position all that often. That was his 15th win. JJ, who began in Cup one year after Harvick, got his 15th win over 6 years ago. TV needs to stop the hyperbole. These guys are good. But they are pumping them up too much. That is the thing about Kevin's career that is so perplexing. He has the personality of a hard charger and an aggressor, but his numbers don't back that up. 15 wins in a little over 10 years is more than would be expected. And he has only led a little over 3500 laps in his career. I think he's gonna have to get aggressive on the track at some point to take the next step. 78. Watto posted: 03.28.2011 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In the last lap I was rooting for Harvick with all my asses, but then he just bumped Johnson in back straight and I was like what the hell pass the guy don't push him. Damn, that push was just about upsetting Jimmies ill handling car in turns 3-4 to allowed Harvick to pass outside. It has the be one of the most ingenious winning moves I've seen." To be honest, I thought it was really just that Harvick wanted to make his move high. If he was more confident in completing the pass low in that one shot, he probably would've done it. "Superior driving? Meh. Remember Kyle said he had a tight car, so there was really nothing he could do besides back up the corner, and that's how JJ closed in. If Kyle was loose like JJ was, I doubt he loses." And more of this. Kyle loses the race, it's because of car. The guy never just gets beat. You give anyone the superior car to the field and they're gonna probably win the race. Face it, the guy is great but a lot of the time, people outdrive him. Just because he's the fastest thing in Nationwide any given week doesn't mean that he'd win every race in Cup if the car is there. If you've watched been a fan for years, as I'm sure you have been, you've seen Kyle throw away a lot of race-winning quality cars. I'm so sick of the mentality of "when he gets beat, it's the car's fault, when he wins, it's cause of the driver" 79. Talon64 posted: 03.28.2011 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The FOX guys always say that he is the "best closer in the business". I take nothing away from Kevin, when presented the opportunity, he does a great job of closing people out. The problem is he isn't in that position all that often. That was his 15th win. JJ, who began in Cup one year after Harvick, got his 15th win over 6 years ago. TV needs to stop the hyperbole. These guys are good. But they are pumping them up too much." Plus Jimmie has his own share of his own last-lap passes; Charlotte in 2004, Las Vegas in 2006, Atlanta in 2007 (2 laps to go) are the first ones that come to mind, there's probably more. Then there's the countless races where he wasn't anywhere until the last quarter of the race where he shows up to take the win. That's closing. 80. Ryan posted: 03.29.2011 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think he's (Harvick) gonna have to get aggressive on the track at some point to take the next step." I guess you missed the last lap. "JJ, who began in Cup one year after Harvick, got his 15th win over 6 years ago. TV needs to stop the hyperbole. These guys are good. But they are pumping them up too much." Yeah, JJ never does have the best equipment or best cheating crew chief in the sport does he? 81. 18fan posted: 03.29.2011 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was so happy I went to this race mainly because I didn't have to watch or listen to the FOX broadcast. The MRN broadcast was far and away better. @DSFF, I think in regards to Darrell, he is more fond of Kyle than of Kevin, but if you factor in Larry Mac and Mike Joy, I think the three of them combined are more fond of Harvick. If you need proof, just listen to them when he beat Jaime Mac at Talladega last year. 82. Android posted: 03.29.2011 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes he has thrown race winning cars away Watto, I agree. But he has also won with cars that had no business winning as well. It goes both ways with many drivers. At Phoenix Jeff had the superior car, and the only reason why Kyle took the lead was because he's the best at getting onto and off pit road quickly. He also has one of, if not the best pit crew in the sport. That's a lethal combination. At Fontana, he dominated in a backup car(his worst track type is the 2.0 milers), but lost the lead late because his car went away the last 50 laps and others (JJ and Harvick)improved their cars throughout the race. I'll be the first to call out a driver who loses the race on his own, but in this instance that didn't happen. 83. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 03.29.2011 - 2:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, Darrell Waltrip seems to openly root for Kyle Busch and Dale Jr. We all know the story with his obsession with Kyle, he never shuts up about him when he's on a hot streak such as winning the Truck and NW race and looking to win the Cup race. The 2009 Spring Fontana race is a good example of this. Kyle had dominated the Truck and NW races the day before and won both, and despite the fact that he didn't have a car that showed any signs of stealing a win away, Darrell and Larry Mac kept saying he did. And the 2010 Daytona 500 sounded like a diehard Jr fan was up in the booth instead of a commentator when Jr was making his charge to 2nd in the final laps. But yes, they have been known to pump up Harvick as well. 84. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can I pose a serious question? What drivers in the sport today does everyone think are going to one day make it into the NASCAR Hall of Fame? This race was Harvick's 15 win, and it got me to thinking about what a driver needs to accomplish to be worthy of induction. Of the drivers today, obviously Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart are locks. I think you have to put Mark Martin up there as well, even without a title. I also think Bobby Labonte makes a strong case. After that it gets tricky, because you have a lot of drivers that are nowhere near done winning, but in a overall historical perspective, some of them might already be close to accomplishing enough. In that category you have guys like Harvick, Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Matt Kenseth, Dale Earnhardt Jr, Jeff Burton, Greg Biffle, and maybe even Ryan Newman. This might take awhile, but I'm going to through them one by one and say what I think about their chances. (*edit* my original comment was too long so I'll break it up into 3 parts. Hopefully it doesn't get too confusing.) First, Kevin Harvick. 15 wins so far, and if I had to guess, I'd say he probably has another 5 to 10 in him in his career. At the pace he wins races, I'd be really surprised if he won more than 25. No title yet, but a strong showing last year, and he probably still has 4 or 5 years left in his window of opportunity to win a title. A championship would definitely make those Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 wins look better on his resume. Without a championship and under 20 wins I don't like his chances unless they run out of better candidates. With 20-25 wins and no championship I think he'll probably get in but probably not right away. 20+ wins and title, he'll be a lock. So the odds are pretty good for Harvick as long as he keeps winning every now and then. But I won't say he's a lock yet. I put his chances of being inducted at 60%. Kurt Busch is already a champion, and has 22 wins. I'd say he's probably already close to putting together a career worthy of induction, but a few more signature wins like a Daytona 500, a Brickyard 400, or Southern 500 would help. I'd like to see a little more variety in the tracks he wins at, but as a champion, and someone very likely to end up somewhere in the top 25 all time in wins, how do you say no? We'll see who's left to be inducted when his name finally comes up, but I think he's getting in pretty quickly, probably within 2 or 3 years of becoming eligible (mind you this is still like 20 years away). the only difference between him and Bobby Labonte, is Labonte has a few more signature wins. Chances: 90% As for Kurt's younger brother Kyle, some would say he's already there, but let me try to take a more reasonable approach. 20 wins is pretty good. He's won restrictor plate tracks, short tracks, and road courses. Obviously he's talented as hell and a good 10 to 15 years away from being done winning races. My gut tells me that I'd be an idiot to bet against him winning less than 40 races. But until he actually does it, he's no Hall of Famer. He won a 500 mile race at Darlington before they started using the Southern 500 name again, but I'll count it as a Southern 500, as it's different from the old 400 mile spring race they used to have when the track had 2 dates. That's his big win right now, but the diversity in his wins helps. He could win anywhere from 0-7 titles, as much I hate to think it could be on that higher end. Much has been made about his late season struggles, but I see a driver that can get dangerously hot for a streak of 7 or 8 races, and in at least 1 season in his career, you know he's going to put it all together at the end. I think the people that try to make a big deal out of his fading at the end of the last 3 seasons, since he's truly been a contender, are just in denial. He's already good, and in many ways still getting better. I've accepted he's probably got at least championship in him, my worry is that once he gets the first, it will be the first of many. So... Hall of Famer? Not yet. Would I bet against him getting into the Hall someday? HELL NO. No way I am taking that bet. Even without a championship, he's probably going to win enough races. 13 more wins and he'd be tied for 20th all time. Does anyone here not think Kyle Busch can win 13 more races? If only 19 drivers in history have more wins than him (this is ignoring everything else he's done in Nationwide and Trucks, which shouldn't affect the decision much), and they're letting in 5 people a year, and Kyle Busch is still 20 to 25 years away from being eligible, well....you do the math. There are only so many crew chiefs, owners, and legends to consider letting in. Then the cold hard truth sets in, Kyle Busch will almost certainly belong to the Hall of Fame one day, barring some sort of freak accident or complete drop off in equipment. Chances: *sigh* 90% 85. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) (part 2) Carl Edwards is an interesting case. He's certainly winning enough, pretty much at the same pace Kyle Busch is winning. But he doesn't really have a big win, and he hasn't become the dominant force at any particular track like Busch has with Bristol, so he doesn't steal as many headlines when he does win. He's a bit older, so he doesn't have as much time to rack up wins in his prime, but I can easily see him topping 30 wins, but I have a harder time seeing him get all the way to 40. He could win as many as 2 championships, but he also might not win any. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he finishes runner up to Busch, or Busch finishes runner up to him once or twice in the next 5 years. I don't know why, but the fates of Edwards and Busch just seem to be tied to one another. Probably because other than Johnson, they've been winning the most races the last 5 years, and will probably continue winning a lot after Johnson starts to fade. So I think Edwards has a great chance of being inducted, for a lot of the same reasons as Kyle Busch. He just has a little less time than Busch to get there, and has been a bit more streaky with his wins. But I definitely wouldn't bet against him winning enough to be worthy. Chances: 80% Denny Hamlin could have done wonders for his future Hall hopes if he had won the title last season. And despite all his recent wins, I'm not quite convinced he's the type of driver to win 3 or more races in a season regularly. If he keeps it up, he'll be right there with Busch and Edwards. If he goes back to being Hard-Luck Hamlin, he'll end up somewhere in the mid-20's in wins. If that's the case, he'll need a few more big wins. His chances of making it are good if the last season and a half wasn't an anomaly, but if it was, he'll be one that will be right on the edge. A bit like Harvick I suppose. Chances: 70% Matt Kenseth. Champion, Daytona 500 winner. Coke 600 winner. Right now stuck on 18 wins. Almost 40 and in the latter stages of his career. At this point, that championship and Daytona 500 win are going to go a long way. I'd like to see 2 more wins before I say, yes, he's going to get in. He can probably win at least 2 more races, but I'm going to say no more than 5 before he's done. It's a pretty respectable career already, and like Kurt Busch he's most likely going to get in. There really aren't that many different Cup champions, 1 title may very well be all a driver needs to stamp their ticket. (Which brings up an interesting sidebar: what about Alan Kulwicki? Right now my gut says Hall of Famer. Had he lived, he probably would have been about like Kenseth in wins) Chances: 90% Which brings me to the driver I'll probably get flamed about: Dale Earnhardt Jr. First off, right now I don't think he gets in just because of his name. But that's not to say he's without his accomplishments. He's won a few big races, and 18 wins is nothing to sneeze at. The real question is, is he done winning? Sometimes it looks like he might be. And is 18 wins enough? Look at the other drivers with 18 wins, are they Hall worthy? Geoff Bodine? Ehhh, maybe. Harry Gant? Possibly. Neil Bonnet? Still just a maybe. All those guys are good drivers, but just how selective is the Hall going to have to be? Junior has won a Daytona 500, that helps. He just needs to win a few more races. He needs to make everyone forget about how long he's been mediocre by winning 3 or 4 more races, then retire shortly after. Then his career will probably look pretty decent in retrospect. If Dale Earnhardt Jr retires with 22 wins, between the wins and his name, he'd make it. But with less than 20 wins, his name is almost a curse, because it feels like he underperformed. Not that 20 wins is some sort of magical cut off point, just having that "2" in the first digit of your win total looks a hell of a lot better than a "1". So, chances are decent, because he can still win a few more, but he better get on it because he's straddling the line. Chances: 60% Jeff Burton has crossed the 20 win barrier, but he doesn't have a championship, and for all we know he's done winning. There could be 1 more win in there somewhere though. The problem with Burton, is he hurting his case by staying in the sport too long? His era was quite a long time ago now. But he's right there with Bobby Labonte. Jeff Burton is to Bobby Labonte, as Dale Earnhardt Jr is to Matt Kenseth. Their hey-days were at the same time, they won about the same amount, but 1 broke through and won a championship while the other did not. 21 wins is good, but a lot of the drivers I'm talking about are going to win more than Burton has. Kyle Busch is 1 win away from Burton. Still, Burton is such a beloved veteran with a lot of history in the sport, he'll probably make it even if he doesn't win another race. But since his eligibility is going to be a lot sooner rather than later, he might have to wait a few years. Chances: 55% I'm pretty torn about Greg Biffle right now. He doesn't win much, and I feel like any time he wins, it could either be his last or he might win again the very next week. He's already over 40 years old. He has a few quality wins, no title. I don't have a whole lot to say other than a few more wins will help his chances. If he's done winning, he's probably not quite Hall material. Chances: 35% Ryan Newman is like Greg Biffle, only younger. He has that elusive Daytona 500 win, but outside of 1 great season he's been fairly mundane. He *might* have 5 more wins in him. Even though he's 1 win every other season kind of guy, I can't shake the feeling that he could have a 3 win season somewhere in his future. He can be pretty good when he needs to be, and probably should have more wins than he does. You'll be able to narrow down Newman's chances once we see what the Hall does with Dale Earnhardt Jr. If Junior doesn't win any more races, and gets in with 18 wins, then Newman should get in if he can get to 18 wins, which I think he can. Chances: 25% 86. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) (part 3) And just to summarize, here the chances I think each driver will make the Hall of Fame some day, based on stats, projected stats, and gut feeling: Harvick: 60% Ku. Busch: 90% Ky. Busch: 90% Edwards: 80% Hamlin: 70% Kenseth: 90% Earnhardt. Jr: 60% Burton: 55% Biffle: 35% Newman: 25% Obviously some people find some discrepancies, some holes in the logic, but I'm not saying it's perfect. You're going to have to remember, stats aren't necessarily everything in a Hall of Fame. Junior is certainly one of the most famous and recognizable drivers in NASCAR history, and has decent stats. That might be enough to put him over someone like Geoff Bodine, who won the same number of races but never meant as much to the sport. Kyle Busch is becoming one of the most infamous drivers of all time, but at the same time could win more races in the next 10 years than anybody else. I think a championship should pretty much make a driver a lock for the Hall, but in the absence of one from a drivers record, 20+ wins with at least 2 of them at the previous Grand Slam races or Brickyard puts a driver in elite company. Also remember how long it will be until most of these drivers become eligible. Even if NASCAR moves to limiting it 3 people into the Hall every year (as they should), there will still be 50 or more people getting in before someone like Kyle Busch is eligible. There are only so many drivers, crew chiefs, car owners, and track presidents that are worthy. If Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards win 30 or more races, they'll deserve to get in, as it will put them with elite company. Now I know a lot of these drivers are not too popular on this site, but be rational in your responses. Just because you hate a certain driver doesn't mean you can ignore the writing on the wall. 87. Smiff_99 posted: 03.29.2011 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg Biffle's a shoe-in, in my book, simply because of his truck and NW titles......he's the only guy who's done that. So those titles, accompanied by his Cup accomplishments, should get him in fairly easily (after dozens of other drivers, though) That's the only one I found fault with. Everything else stacks up pretty fairly, I'd say. Well done. 88. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.29.2011 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Face it, the guy is great but a lot of the time, people outdrive him. Just because he's the fastest thing in Nationwide any given week doesn't mean that he'd win every race in Cup if the car is there. If you've watched been a fan for years, as I'm sure you have been, you've seen Kyle throw away a lot of race-winning quality cars." My thoughts exactly. Kyle is excellent. His car control is the best out there. But people look too much at his staggering NWide numbers and want to parlay them into Cup. That shouldn't happen. He is having a damn good Cup career (as far as win total goes). That should be the focus. 89. Eric posted: 03.29.2011 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think 40 is the wrong age for claiming when a driver stops winning. 45 to 46 year old range more of an age that is likely that a driver could have had their last win. I might be wrong about the age range now because a driver could even at an older age now thanks to safety barriers, head and neck restraints, safety features in cup cars and safer racing seats. That means a driver is less likely to get a major injury in their 40's now. It is more on a drivers physical skills in terms of decline, sponsors wanting drivers, and quality of ride than injuries anymore. Jeff Burton and Greg Biffle were really the first Nascar drivers in big names that turned 40 after the improvements of safety were completed. Cot was the last one in 2007. The age comparison between different Nascar drivers may not be valid anymore in terms of stop winning. Cup Drivers in the past such as Geoff Bodine won races in their 40's. There had been many driver's didn't championships in their 40's that won races and that was before major safety improvements. Bobby Allison, Dale Earnhardt Sr, Dale Jarrett, Lee Petty and Richard Petty won championships in their 40's as cup drivers. Bobby Labonte didn't win any races in his 40's, but it was a combination of factors there. He didn't have great equipment after leaving JGR. Bobby also was affected by Dale Earnhardt Sr.'s death to a point. Bobby just months prior to Dale's death was in a serious crash for Qualifying or practice for the 2000 Southern 500. Dale's death and Bobby's serious crash might of taken a competitive edge off with him. Bobby had racing injuring in the past also such as injuring his should blade in 1999. What happened Bobby Labonte really can't be compared to any current driver. Jeff Burton's problems with winning really started after Dale Sr.'s death and he was involved in safety a lot as a result of what happened to Dale. Jeff had combination of rides that declined in quality of equipment, bad luck, and mistakes on Jeff's part besides being a Mark Martin clone on the track. 90. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.29.2011 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My HOF thoughts: The first thing you must realize is that only 5 inductees are taken in each year. Not just drivers, but crew chiefs, owners, behind the scene folks, etc. Obviously JJ, Gordon, and Smoke are locks. But for everyone else, just look at the people who aren't even drivers that are ahead of them. Just off the top of my head: Dale Inman, Raymond Parks, Ralph Seagraves, Smokey Yunick, Maurice Petty, Leonard Wood, Harry Hyde, Robert Yates, John Holman and Ralph Moody, Jake Elder, Richard Childress, Ray Evernham, Chad Knaus, Rick Hendrick, Ken Squire, Chris Economacki, Bill Weber (NOT!), Benny Parsons (for his work as a driver and a broadcaster). Now for the people you mentioned JJ's Neatly Trimmed Beard. First of all, your name cracks me up. Secondly, those were some excellent observations. Kevin Harvick: Needs more wins. Needs to dominate more. I know the last lap is the only one that truly counts, but that "hang back and wait" strategy can bite you if there is no late caution. He also needs to lose his streakiness. He would need to put up about 5 huge years in the next 7 or 8 years to even be considered. Needs to put up some huge numbers in the win column. Kurt Busch: His Penske years have really hurt him. If he could have kept putting up 3 to 4 wins per year like he did at Roush, and maybe get another championship, and maybe throw up a 9 win season once like Carl did with Roush, then he could have a serious case. But at the rate he's going with Penske, he won't have enough in my opinion unless they really turn things around. Kyle: If the selection committe decides to, unrightfully so, include his domination of the AAA series then he is a shoe-in. Hopefully they won't do that. Even with that being said, he has a great chance of getting in based on Cup alone if he keeps up this pace for another 10 or 15 years. But I wouldn't automatically bet on this. Yes he has the ability to be legendary and is very young, but in NASCAR we have seen people light it up to start with, then just quit producing for a variety of reasons. Yes Kyle has shown an extreme amount of maturity this year, but a lot of that is because he has to. DW kind of dropped the real secret to the new and improved Kyle: His sponsors won't put up with his antics. And DW also mentioned that is what caused Rick to discard him. Texas last year was a low point for Kyle in a career full of staggering highs and embarrassing lows. M&M's (as well as their umbrella companies) most likely said we will only re-sign if Kyle cleans up his behavior (notice they didn't resign in the offseason, they waited a few races to see if Kyle pops off or not). And this probably caused the JGR folks to give him an ultimatum. And that is something else we must consider: He has already burned bridges at Hendrick and Roush. If JGR has to split with him, his contending days in Cup could be done. So it comes to this: Can Kyle keep his good behavior going for a long time? If he does, then he will undoubtably do well enough to be in the HOF. But I'm not a big believer in people changing. Yes, it does happen occasionally, but for the most part, I believe people are who they are. How long can Kyle keep his true self from the public? Will keeping his frustrations bottled up cause him to eventually explode and flame out dramatically? Will he realize not being a jackass and having people respond positively to him is a good thing? Lots of questions, but overall, if I had to bet life altering amounts of money on whether or not Kyle will put up HOF numbers in Cup, I'd say yes. 91. BON GORDON posted: 03.29.2011 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biffle, newman, burton wont be in as of now. Jr., and harvick maybe. Im fairly sure that the busch brothers, kenseth, edwards, and hamlin can and will make it in to the hall of fame. Kyle busch has the best chance especially if he keeps his emotions in gear and focuses on winning the championship in the cup series. 92. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.29.2011 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards: Like you said, he truly is an interesting case. He is Kevin Harvick on steroids (literally). Very streaky. His good streaks make Harvick's good streaks look bad, but he is also prone to long winless streaks. Also, a long term question: He is drawing out this contract situation with Jack. He has the right to, but Jack is a notorious dick. Will he shove Carl down the ladder if it gets too ugly? But as far as his current career arc, I don't think he'd make the cut. I think they would have to consider the severe peaks and valleys his career has had. He exploded onto the Cup Scene with a 4 win '05, then disappeared in '06. Has a good bounceback in '07 (3 wins and the cha$e) and an out of this world '08 with 9 wins. Then he didn't win again for almost 2 years, then won 3 races out of 5. How do you make sense of that? Even if he keeps this pace for another 10 years, it will be iffy. He'll need to keep putting up huge win numbers and win a Cup championship. Denny Hamlin: Too early to tell. It depends on whether or not his 8 win '10 season was a one time deal where all the stars aligned, or a precursor of things to come. He is already showing signs of streakiness. Went a year and a half without winning after his '08 Martinsville win, then rattled off 12 wins in the next year and a half. I'd say no to his HOF chances at this point (projecting the rest of his career), but that might change. But he'll need a new crew chief (him and Mike Ford hate each other), and more confidence. Matt Kenseth: I like Matt, but I say no. Even with the championship he hasn't won enough. And I don't see him rattling off a huge season in the future. I hope I'm wrong, but he has shown no signs of it. He is too picky about his car, and goes through crew chiefs like Skittles. He is like a widow since Robbie left. Nobody else can get him the feel he is looking for. I don't see him getting nearly enough wins. Dale Earnhardt Jr: If he could have kept up his early career pace he would have done well enough (15 wins in 5 years). But since Tony Sr got off his pit box, he has tanked. June needs a ball buster to reach his potential, not a "cheerleader" like others say. June wants a cheerleader, but that won't get him the results he is capable of. And at this point, he is such a big name and brings in so much money, nobody can bust his balls. He is bigger than any team out there. I see him continuing his mediocre pace for the rest of his driving career. Jeff Burton: Hasn't won nearly enough. Was on pace with Roush from '97 through '01, but unexplainably fell off the Earth. Of the people that just all at once quit producing, he is the one I can't find an explanation for. Had a nice resurgance at RCR, a lot of consistency and some cha$e appearances, but just 4 wins since '06 started. I certainly don't see him exploding in the win column at any point in the future. Between his conservative driving, and being at RCR whose very name invokes the word "conservative" (even during the Earnhardt years, he should have way more than 76 wins, his talent carried them to their big win numbers), it ain't happening for the future Senator. Greg Biffle: Don't see it with him either. Needs more seasons like '05. He is to Doug Richert a lot like Kenseth is with Reiser. The shadow of the chemistry they had haunts them. Ryan Newman: Not even close IMO. Way too few wins, 8 of which came in one season. One last thought: SmokeFan05, you should change your screen name to TonyStewartsNotSoNeatlyTrimmedBeard :) Just for the record, I think rough looking beards are way cooler. The neatly trimmed ones are kinda fruity. But JJ is from Southern Cal, so I'll give him a pass. Plus he's a 5 time champion. You can't say anything to him because of that. It's the same reason, late in his career, nobody told Earnhardt his combover wasn't hitting on much. 93. Eric posted: 03.29.2011 - 2:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg Biffle is a future Nascar Hall of Famer. He won titles as Truck Series and a Busch Series driver before becoming a cup driver. That is different than Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards. He is 41, but he is on good equipment. He could a threat to win cup races for several years thanks to improvement in safety in Nascar. He could turn from 16 win driver to a driver that wins at least 25 wins in his career. The only safety that Biffle is facing is if his car gets off the ground into the air like Carl Edwards car did a couple years ago. Kevin Harvick is a Future Nascar Hall of Fame Driver. Kevin won titles before becoming a cup driver. He won titles in regional touring series in his early 20's. Kevin as a cup driver is at his peak and you might talking a driver with over 25 career cup wins. He already a Daytona 500 and a Brickyard 400 win. Kyle Busch is a Future Hall of Fame driver, but the amounts wins predicated is off. Kyle is capable of getting at least 3 to 4 wins a year for the next 10 to 15 years. That means he could win anywhere from 50 to 70 cup races at least before his cup career is over. Kurt Busch is already in if his career ends now. I am saying that because he has 22 wins and a major in a Coke 600 victory. He should get anywhere from 30 to 40 cup wins by the time his career is over. His Penske years are affecting his win totals. He is the only driver that seems to do good at Penske for the last few years. Carl Edwards will be a future Nascar Hall of Fame driver. He could win over 40 cup wins by the time his cup career is finished and possible a cup championship. Denny Hamlin should be a Nascar Hall of Fame driver. His problem is the fact he usually doesn't win a lot of times in a year. I am guessing that he could be a 30 to 50 cup win a driver besides being one of the best short track drivers in his generation on the cup level. Kenseth is in. I don't think he is done winning. He already has 2 major wins and a championship. He end with 20 to 25 cup career wins. Jeff Burton in on the bubble and I think he may not get in. Jeff has a lot of major wins, but they happened from 2001 or prior despite not having a Daytona 500 win. 2 Coke 600 wins and a southern 500 win on labor day is something that you couldn't ignore. If he had another major win, I think he gets in. I don't if he will win again though. He has a lot of bad luck right now and he is turning 44. Dale Earnhardt Jr: He only gets in because of popularity and having 2 Busch Series championships before becoming a cup driver. 18 cups is a good amount, but he couldn't get into the hall with 18 cup wins only. I am saying that because he is with Neil Bonnett, Geoff Bodine with 18 wins. Those 2 drivers are not consider Hall of Fame drivers right now and without Dale's last name, he wouldn't be either. I think Dale could win a couple more wins in career, but his days of winning over 2 wins a year is long gone. Ryan Newman isn't going to the Hall of Fame. He has a Daytona 500 win, but 8 out of his 14 wins came from 2003. That was the year he won many races by fuel mileage. Another alarming thing with him is 11 of wins came from his first 3 seasons in cup. He is in good equipment right now. If Newman continues his hot start this year, this year would be his best season since 2003. 94. MegaRacer posted: 03.29.2011 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exciting finish to an otherwise boring Kyle Busch snoozefest. 95. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kurt Busch: His Penske years have really hurt him. If he could have kept putting up 3 to 4 wins per year like he did at Roush, and maybe get another championship, and maybe throw up a 9 win season once like Carl did with Roush, then he could have a serious case. But at the rate he's going with Penske, he won't have enough in my opinion unless they really turn things around. Kyle: If the selection committe decides to, unrightfully so, include his domination of the AAA series then he is a shoe-in. Hopefully they won't do that. Even with that being said, he has a great chance of getting in based on Cup alone if he keeps up this pace for another 10 or 15 years. But I wouldn't automatically bet on this. Yes he has the ability to be legendary and is very young, but in NASCAR we have seen people light it up to start with, then just quit producing for a variety of reasons." You might be over-thinking what it's going to take to get into the Hall of Fame in the future. Yes it's not just drivers being inducted, but think of it this way. If NASCAR keeps inducting 5 people a year, 20 years from now there will be 100 more people in the Hall. How many non-drivers do you honestly think will get in? I can think of a solid 25, maybe 30, then it gets pretty murky. And that's just 10 years from now, a lot of the drivers I mentioned will probably still be racing. How long is it after retirement until someone is eligible? I know it's a few years at least. If Kyle Busch doesn't retire for another 15 years, and mind you that's a low-ball number since he'll only be 40 (christ, is he really that young right now?), it would probably still be 20 years before he's eligible. Now I'm honestly looking through records here and I have a hard time thinking up 100 people that would deserve to get in without going down the all time Cup win list and past where Kyle Busch is even now (33rd). The problem is, 5 people a year is way too many. What NASCAR needs to do is change the induction format in a few years and make it more like what baseball does, with someone getting in only if they appear on a certain number of voting ballots a certain year. Some years you may only have 1 inductee, some years you might have 4 or 5. If NASCAR sticks to some sort of rigid 5 a year policy, you might as well go ahead and give every champion and the top 50 all time in wins an automatic ticket, because otherwise they won't have enough to fill it out every year. But I think they'll wise up in a few years when they realize that will dilute the Hall of Fame. However, looking at the all time win list, I think every driver with 25 or more wins is getting in. And even the ones with 20 or more wins already have a strong case. Also, there are only 28 drivers who own a Cup championship. Every one of them should get in eventually. It helps that most of them are also up near the top of the win list. Another good measuring stick would be career top 5's. Looking at that list, all 33 drivers with 100 or more top 5's should have a shot at the Hall. Running top 5 in 100 races shows a consistent competitiveness for an extended amount of time. There are 27 drivers with 200 or more top 10's, and that looks like another good benchmark stat considering who belongs to that group. So in taking all these different stats into consideration, I think you start to see that the best, most Hall of Fame-worthy drivers drivers have a lot in common. 1 or more titles, 20 or more wins, 100 top 5's, 200 top 10's. And I think the lack of championship shouldn't matter if a driver wins 30 or more races. I mean 30 wins, in the modern era, that's nearly an entire seasons worth of wins. And it's not like NASCAR has been around forever, owning enough wins to say that basically one whole season's worth of races in the modern era was won by one driver, that's impressive. That's Hall of Fame material. That's why there is no way I'm betting against Kyle Busch or even Carl Edwards. They both have the potential to win not only 30 races, but maybe 40, or in Kyle's case, even 50. It seriously scares me sometimes how much he has the potential to win. I'm starting to get a Rusty Wallace-type vibe from Busch, and it won't surprise me one bit if they end up having very similar stats when it's all done. 1 championship, 50 some wins, 15 or so years in a row with a win, none of that would surprise me if Busch continues his improvements as a driver. And like Rusty, Busch is a short-tempered short track demon, maybe that's an even better comparison than I thought. Now I have to address the elephant in the room, and that's what to do with a driver's stats outside of Cup. The problem is, there are some Nationwide and Truck drivers that are worthy of being in a Hall of Fame, but can you look use their stats there and for example, ignore Greg Biffle's Truck and Nationwide stats when considering him for the Hall? It wouldn't hardly be fair. Even trickier are the cases of Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch, since so much of their success in the lower series has come AFTER Cup success. To completely ignore theirs, but still consider Biffle's isn't fair either. Unfortunately the only fair way to look at it is all or none. If you think Ron Hornaday deserves to get into the Hall of Fame, then Kyle Busch's 25 Truck wins mean *something* in the long run, there's just no other way around it. Fortunately Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards, being the most extreme cases, are going to do enough in Cup that it's ultimately not going to matter. But those stats don't mean nothing; if Hornaday, or Skinner, or Jack Ingram, or Sam Ard deserve Hall induction, then you can't tip-toe around the fact that Kyle Busch is going to have 50 Nationwide wins. And I'm not going to be the one to say, "well he had such better equipment" because if we go down that rabbit hole, then you aren't going to figure out anything . How many races did Richard Petty win because he had the best car? A lot. Ron Hornaday won a lot of truck races because he had the fastest truck. That's what you're supposed to do if you're a good driver. The only way to be fair is all or none. Either everybody's stats mean something, or nobodies do. Might as well accept it now that when Kyle Busch comes up for eligibility, his Cup accomplishments, which will almost surely be many, will take a backseat to this mythical "win total" that looks so good on paper. It's a shame too, because if he wins 40 Cup races, that's more than enough to be impressive. But the media will instead say something like, "Kyle Busch, winner of 146 NASCAR races, 2nd only to Richard Petty". Even now, I'm impressed with 20 Cup wins, hell only 32 drivers have more. But the media actually diminishes that accomplishment by playing up the win total and making 20 Cup wins somehow seem like a small number. 96. Smokefan05 posted: 03.29.2011 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well my HOF thoughts: Smoke: uh, duh. He is in. Period. Jeff Gordon: He is in, Period. Jimmie J.: Even tho to me he has 3 championships, he is in. Carl Edwards: Needs to get out of the N'wide series and wins more races and championship. he has shown he can contend for one. Happy Harvick: Not right now, but he has a 500 and indy 400 win. Win a Cup, it'll go a long way. Denny Hamlin: too early to start talking. Kyle Busch: Oh he HAS the talent to be a HOF driver, just needs to put the pieces together. Getting out of the lower tier series would do wounders, he should have a Cup by now. Greg Biffle: Carrer has a whole, he is in. Get a Cup title, then lock him in right then and there. Dale Jr.: Well 2000-2004 driver yes he'd be in. but the current driver will not be in. "SmokeFan05, you should change your screen name to TonyStewartsNotSoNeatlyTrimmedBeard :)" hey hey hey, leave the beard alone. BEARDS ARE AWSOME REGUARDLESS OF HOW THEY ARE MAINTAINED!!!!!11!!11!!!!1!!! :-P I'm glad he has lost weight, looks alot better so he can fit in that F1 car. :-) 97. Cooper posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Jeff Tony Those are the only three currently. If I was running the HOF, I'd run a tight ship...Minimum requirements being one of the following: --Sprint Cup Champion --20 Sprint Cup Wins --Any two of the "four" main events: (World 600/Daytona 500/Brickyard 400/Southern 500(The original Southern 500 on Labour day weekend)) --Nationwide and Truck Series Champion So the active (full-time currently) drivers eligible according to my system are: (My personal opinion on whether he will get in or not) ->Tony Stewart (Yes) ->Jimmie Johnson (Yes) ->Jeff Gordon (Yes) ->Kurt Busch (No) ->Matt Kenseth (No) ->Bobby Labonte (No) ->Mark Martin (Yes) ->Jeff Burton (No) ->Kyle Busch (Yes) ->Kevin Harvick (No) ->Jamie McMurray (No) ->Greg Biffle (No) 98. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So the active (full-time currently) drivers eligible according to my system are: (My personal opinion on whether he will get in or not) . . . ->Bobby Labonte (No)" Really? Even though Bobby is a Cup and Nationwide champion with 20+ wins, including a Coke 600, Brickyard 400, and Southern 500, you don't think he'll make it? Also, he has 100+ top 5's, and 200 top 10's. When I think Bobby Labonte, I think Hall of Famer, despite his last several years. 99. BON GORDON posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What do you guys think of Mark Martin? No one has said anything about ole Mark Martin. Besides Stewart, Johnson, and Gordon he's another one who i think is a lock for the hall of fame. I dont care if he doesnt have a cup championship. He is truely one of the best of all-time. 100. Talon64 posted: 03.29.2011 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess I'll throw in my HoF 2 cents: Harvick: He definitely needs to win more races and a championship would lock him in, but he also has another avenue through KHI. I imagine at least by the time he retires that KHI will move up to Cup and he might even drive for himself. If they can win races then the added ownership success would really put it over the top. Ku. Busch: 100% lock in my mind. He's had his up-and-down seasons but since 2002 he's won at least one race in 9 consecutive seasons, and if he wins this year then it'll hit double digits. The next best thing to dominant winning is consistent winning, and add his championship in there and he's a lock. Also, winning races with 2 different organizations in his career has to count for something. Ky. Busch: Right now he's on the verge, but in 10 years he'll be an absolute lock IMO. Unfortunately his Nationwide/Truck accomplishments will probably hold plenty of weight with voters so in reality he's already a lock. His Bristol success will help, especially if he could join Darrell Waltrip in the double-digit wins club. Edwards: I agree with JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard (did you ever consider JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyWaxedEyebrows lol) that he's just a peg below Kyle Busch but in the same boat. If he keeps it up he'll be a lock. The lack of consistent winning worries me though, he nearly had 3 winless seasons in his first 6 full years of Cup. Hamlin: And Hamlin's just a peg below Carl Edwards. Except he's won at least one race every year he's been in Cup so the consistent winning gives him the advantage over Carl. Kenseth: 2000 ROTY, 2003 champion, had the most wins in a season (2002), backed up his 2003 championship by finishing 2nd in points in 2006... he could use some more wins but he's a 100% lock. He also got future HoFer Jack Roush his first Cup championship which should help him in some voters' minds. Earnhardt. Jr: Really tough call. If he never wins another race in his career then it'll be a long time before he's inducted into the HoF. He hasn't really dominated anywhere except for plate tracks which isn't as impressive as other places. He does have those legit back-to-back Nationwide championships though. Burton: 21 career wins and he's done it with 2 different organizations in his career. He's also 3 top tens away from cracking the top 20 all time. I really don't know if he has it in him to win anymore races, but I'd put his HoF chances at 75%. Biffle: One of only 2 drivers to win 2 of the 3 national touring series championships (Trucks & NNS for Biffle, NNS & Cup for Bobby Labonte). No Cup championship yet but he's come close on a couple of occasions (2005 and 2008). If he could've broken into Cup 5 years earlier he'd be a lock, it's too bad he was already 28 when Roush signed him up for the Trucks in 1998 and he was 33 when he started in Cup. For what might be a shorter Cup career than most, combined with his Truck and NNS championship, I think he's got a good shot. Ryan Newman: 10th all time in poles and he holds rookie records for top 5's, top 10's and poles. Has also won with 2 different teams in his career, but when you win 8 races in 1 season but only 6 in the other 8 seasons then that doesn't bode well. If he makes the HoF it'll be a long time from now. I believe every driver listed here will make the HoF. Some are locks, some will make it fairly quickly while others will need to wait a while until they're scraping the barrel for fringe HoFers to induct. 101. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What do you guys think of Mark Martin? No one has said anything about ole Mark Martin. Besides Stewart, Johnson, and Gordon he's another one who i think is a lock for the hall of fame. I dont care if he doesnt have a cup championship. He is truely one of the best of all-time." I did mention him at the very beginning of my first long post, because I agree he should be a lock. His wins, his longevity, the 4 runner-up points finishes, what he means to the sport, and if we're going to throw it in, his Nationwide wins too. Definite Hall of Famer. 102. 00andJoe posted: 03.29.2011 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to change the subject (which is quite fascinating and good reading!), but this just in: Gillett (yes, *that* fellow) is planning on returning to NASCAR with a Truck Series team...and Formula One driver Kimi Raikkonen. What's that smell? *sniff sniff* Smells like disaster... 103. Eric posted: 03.29.2011 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin is an automatic to me and that is why I didn't mention him. His 2009 season put him over the top for the Hall of Fame. If a driver has 40 or more career cup wins, that person is guaranteed a spot in the Nascar Hall of Fame. If any one thinks a driver win that at least 40 cup wins don't belong in the Hall of Fame, he or she needs their voting privileges taken away. I don't know why Cooper don't think Bobby Labonte doesn't belong in the Nascar Hall of Fame. Bobby won at least 1 cup race in 9 straight seasons. He won all the majors in Nascar except for the Daytona 500 besides being the only cup driver to a championship in the Nationwide and cup series. 104. BON GORDON posted: 03.29.2011 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with Eric. Bobby Labonte along with his brother will be in the hall of fame. 105. Eric posted: 03.29.2011 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kimi Raikkonen is making a big mistake because I don't trust Gillett. Gillett is as infamous as Jim Stacy was. Jim Stacy ripped off a lot of people in Nascar and Dale Earnhardt Sr. left his original full time cup ride because he didn't trust Jim Stacy. 106. Eric posted: 03.29.2011 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gillett didn't pay a lot of people that he owed money to and that is why I compare him to Jim Stacy. The other person I could compare this to was Bobby Ginn. 107. Cooper posted: 03.29.2011 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Bobby is a great driver. My second favourite driver currently, but I think by allowing him in, your allowing every one time Sprint Cup champion in. Now, I'm not sure if NASCAR is looking for a certain amount of members to be in the HOF. Because eventually we'll run out of qualified people. Also NASCAR is just so hard to predict when it comes to the HOF, because the statistics are so hard to measure. Other professional sports, players can have many years of success, but in NASCAR a lot of drivers have a short prime career. Like If Bobby called it quits after he left Joe Gibbs, he's a hall of famer. Since then his futility has him at an 18.5 Average Finish and a 32% Top 10 percentage. I'm trying to ignore this because I know he is a fantastic racecar driver and I think he deserves it. For example Clint Bowyer and many other drivers have better percentage and average stats then Bobby. No offense to Clint, but he isn't a HOF driver. I think there needs to be a simple question whether a driver deserves to be in or not. Does winning a Sprint Cup championship make you an instant Hall of Famer? 108. BON GORDON posted: 03.29.2011 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No winning the cup doesnt make you a hall of famer but he does have brickyard 400 and southern 500 win too. He'll be in. 109. Cooper posted: 03.29.2011 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope he does get in. Great Racecar driver. I'm actually looking at his stats page right now, I see two HOF type seasons. Which is more than the other one time Sprint Cup Champions. The two seasons are 1999 and 2000. Bobby Labonte 1999-> 5 wins, 23 Top 5's, 26 Top 10's, 1200 Laps Led, 9.0 Average Finish 2000-> 4 wins, 19 Top 5's, 24 Top 10's, 465 Laps Led, 7.4 Average Finish, Champ And then you can add the before mentioned Busch Series Title and Three Main Events. If I can put Bobby in without putting in Kenseth then I'll be okay with it. No disrespect to Matt Kenseth or his fans. 110. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does winning a Sprint Cup championship make you an instant Hall of Famer?" Before the Chase, yes, after the Chase, no. Because before the Chase, winning a championship was not something that just anyone could do, which is why only the very best ever won it. With the Chase, we've seen that someone like Clint Bowyer can come dangerously close to winning it without winning many races or putting a true championship season together. But we've been fortunate enough so far that the 3 drivers who have won a Chase, Kurt Busch, Tony Stewart, and Jimmie Johnson, have all done enough in addition to the championship to deserve to get in. For Kurt Busch in particular (since Stewart and Johnson are legends anyway), his Chase championship is more or less just validation of a good career. "Like If Bobby called it quits after he left Joe Gibbs, he's a hall of famer. Since then his futility has him at an 18.5 Average Finish and a 32% Top 10 percentage. I'm trying to ignore this because I know he is a fantastic racecar driver and I think he deserves it." I don't think that's totally fair, even though it brings up a good point. Think about it this way, what if a baseball player accumulated enough hits and home runs to place him somewhere in the top 25 all time. Then his career starts to decline, he never hits another home run, and his batting average starts to decrease substantially. It doesn't change the fact that he was one of the best baseball players of all time. You could make the same analogy with other sports too, like basketball with shooting percentage and points scored, or hockey with goals scored. Even though some of the best players of all time stayed in their sport 5 years longer than they should have, they still did more than all but a few that came before, and were famous for doing so. Like I said, a Hall of Fame isn't all about stats, or at least not every stat. In racing, in order of importance, I'd go Championships Wins Top 5's Top 10's Laps led Average finish Winning percentage Top 5 percentage Top 10 percentage Poles And a guy like Bobby has taken care of the top 4 or 5 pretty handily. Plus there is something to be said for his popularity and his streak of consecutive starts. 111. RacingRocks57 posted: 03.29.2011 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another average finish for Reutimann. He's my favorite but plan on retiring soon? I mean you are an average driver (some of that taken away my MWR having crappy equipment) but 1 win and that was by luck (2009 Coke 600). No offense, but it is drivers like you that the sport does not need. Heck, I barely ever hear the announcers say your name. Just another average driver. 112. RacingRocks57 posted: 03.29.2011 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry I forgot you won 2 races. 113. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kimi Raikkonen is making a big mistake because I don't trust Gillett." Evernham's quote about Gillett was great. Still, I love the idea of another Formula 1 World Champion trying out NASCAR. Poor Jacques Villeneuve, I think he could have made it if he was a tad younger and had the support of a decent team. Both him and Raikkonen just seem like natural born racers, and if Raikkonen is serious about trying to make it, I'm not going to doubt his ability. The guy can wheel a race car. 114. 00andJoe posted: 03.29.2011 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martinsville entry list update: Schrader in the #32, Skinner in the #60. 115. RR posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that I should preface my Hall of Fame post by indicating what I think should go in to a Hall of Fame argument. While I realizes that no sport is alike, I think that the basic guidelines and requirements made by voters for other Halls of Fame are useful when talking about the NASCAR Hall of Fame. While there have been general "milestones" that seemingly punch tickets to a HoF (3000 hits, 500 HR, 300 wins in baseball), in recent years it has become evident that those milestone really aren't indicative of a player's worthiness, and are subject to fluctuate based on the era in which the player played. For instance, while it is possible that no pitcher will ever get to 300 wins again, that doesn't mean that there will never be a Hall of Fame worthy pitcher ever again. And milestone statistics have much more to do with a player's longevity than with a player's talent and greatness. While longevity should be accounted for when determining a driver's worthiness in a Hall of Fame, it shouldn't be taken at face value. Dave Krieg is currently tied for 10th on the career TD passes list, ahead of Sonny Jurgensen, Dan Fouts, Len Dawson, Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Kurt Warner, and Roger Staubach, among others. Yet somehow I don't believe Krieg's face will be in bronze in Canton in this lifetime. To apply this to NASCAR, not all drivers with 15 wins should be considered equal. No number should automatically "lock" a driver in. If I were a voter, here would be my three main criteria for a Hall of Fame candidate, in order of importance. - Period of great excellence In my view, a Hall of Fame should be primarily reserved for drivers who were, with little exception, were considered one of the top handful of drivers at some period in their careers. I would define a period as no fewer than 3-4 years. While a good driver can consistently be in the top 10 every week, a great driver (and thus a Hall of Fame driver) should be regard as a favorite to win a race every single week. - Parity among wins A Hall of Famer should have some amounts of success at each general type of track (superspeedway, intermediates, short tracks, road courses). While, for example being average on road courses wouldn't automatically disqualify someone from being in the Hall of Fame, having wins primarily at one one type of track would take away from their case. - Extended period of relevance While I mentioned that a long career isn't necessarily a great career, I would reward a driver if they have been a factor for at least a decade. In other words, I loom to weed out "flash in the pan" drivers, while reward those who are still relevant when the series undergoes significant changes. Ricky Rudd would be the best example of this. With that being said, here??s what I think of active drivers: Shoo-ins: Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, Mark Martin, Bill Elliott Non shoo-in, from strongest to weakest case: Those I??d put in? Kurt Busch: Won a championship by going toe-to-toe with two legends, Gordon and Johnson. Aside form his rookie year, had four great seasons at Roush, winning at least three races in each of them. He's won over twenty races, but has multiple wins on short track, intermediates, and bigger tracks (i.e. Michigan and Pocono). His dominance at Bristol was notably impressive. At Penske, he's clearly outclassed his teammates each year. Matt Kenseth: First Roush driver to win a championship, and he??s been by far the most consistent driver at Roush since his rookie season. Had a championship caliber year in 2006, and has been in all but one Chase. He??s done well at several different types of tracks. Biggest drawback is that he??s not a real dominant driver. Jeff Burton: He doesn??t have a championship, but he??s done quite a bit. Had a great five year period (1997-2000), with 17 wins and four top fiver points positions. In 2001 he only finished tenth, but he was the only Roush driver who won that year, and he clearly outperformed his teammates, who were all really good drivers. I also think he was big in revitalizing RCR when he joined, bringing leadership and expertise that they needed. He??s ran up front for going on sixteen seasons. That long winless drought hurts him quite a bit though, and he wasn??t doing anything for a five year period. Bobby Labonte: Though he has a championship, he period of greatness isn't nearly as dominant as the shoo-ins. However, in a four year period (1998-2001), he had 13 wins (tied for third, one behind Jeff Burton for 2nd), over 2000 laps led (6th), and 62 top fives (3rd) in a very competitive period, where Gordon, Jarrett, and Burton were at their peak, and Martin, Earnhardt and Wallace were still major players. In addition, he had nine years where he had at least on win. He also was instrumental in the rise of Joe Gibbs Racing, from a good team into a championship caliber team. Main draw back would be his lack of a short track victory. Those on the outside, again in order of strength of argument: Kyle Busch: In case you haven??t noticed, Nationwide/Truck stats have zero impact in my ratings. But in Cup, he has been a favorite to win almost every week since he joined Gibbs. He??s won a lot, and led quite a bit of laps. Won on every type of track, including super speedways and road courses And he did have some good runs at Hendrick. His main drawback is obvious: he??s never been a serious contender for the title. . If he has a couple of years straight of serious title contention, he may get over the hump, even if he doesn??t actually win one. Denny Hamlin: Won two races and finished third in his rookie year, and hasn??t had a really down year since. Has for the past two seasons been the 2nd best driver after Johnson, in my opinion. Excellent on the short tracks, and has improved everywhere else. I think if he contends for the title for the next couple of year, or wins it this year, that will put him over the edge. Carl Edwards: Solid, but not consistently dominant to be in the discussion. Hasn??t strung together two great seasons yet. Kevin Harvick: See Carl Edwards, except his valleys have been lower. Dale Earnhardt Jr.: Flirted with championship contention a number of times, but his disastrous has really hurt his resume. Greg Biffle: Hasn??t really had a season close to 2005. Ryan Newman: Hasn??t had a season close to 2003. 116. Sean posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I must admit, I am the opposite of most here. I think I would tend to be a bit more inclusive than exclusive, but looking at what I eventually wrote here, maybe not. It's just that I have way different criteria than most seem to. It surprises me that others don't agree with me, but it seems like few do. I read some NASCAR HoF article that called Geoff Bodine, Harry Gant, Benny Parsons, and Ricky Rudd all HoF bubble candidates, when I personally see all four of those as should-be locks. All four of those drivers would have had many more wins had they emerged in this era with premier rides when they were 24, and all four of them battled adversity several times in their career (either lousy rides, horrible injuries interrupting their career, etc...) There is more to evaluating specific drivers than wins and titles. First off, even though I'm heavily into stats, I don't love the criteria everybody else seems to be using: titles, wins, and marquee race wins. Wins are the best of the three measures - I believe I would induct everyone with 20+ wins except Jim Paschal, Speedy Thompson, Jack Smith, and Jeff Burton. As a long-time loather of the too-consistency-driven Cup points system, I think titles are a way overrated measure of performance since they're more about staying out of trouble than performing and have much to do with luck. Almost everybody would rate Terry Labonte over Ricky Rudd due to his two titles, but I wouldn't. TL didn't win either of those titles by much, and if he had finished 100 points lower in second place both of those seasons, their careers would look virtually identical. Yet Labonte is a luck due to his wussy points racing and Rudd is not? I'd actually rate Rudd higher because he was the best road racer in his prime, and I'd be hard-pressed to say Labonte was the best at any discipline at any point when he drove. Marquee wins are not particularly important to me at all. There have been way too many lousy winners at Daytona and Talladega for me to take the plate races seriously at all, Charlotte is also more about car than driver (and Casey Mears has caused me to stop taking the 600 seriously at all), leaving only Indy and Darlington (in my opinion) having more to do with the driver. If you're going to go by marquee wins, somebody like Rusty Wallace looks really bad when he was the second-best driver from 1986-1994, while second-tier drivers like Sterling Marlin and seventh-tier drivers like Michael Waltrip look like superheroes by way of their multiple Daytona 500 wins. The criteria which I think are neglected in judging certain drivers' careers among the people who go strictly by wins/titles/marquee wins: Winning on diverse tracks, especially road courses/short tracks (probably the only tracks these days where the driver's more important than the car) Being the best driver on a specific type of driver's track, while being solid elsewhere (guys like Rudd/Irvan who were among the best on road courses in their prime should be rated over guys like Marlin who were among the best on plate tracks, etc... or in my opinion guys like T. Labonte/Davey Allison/Jarrett who were never really the best at any given specialty...) I had to add that second clause to keep people like Marcos Ambrose and JPM out. Yeah, they're the best on road courses now, and they would belong in Aussie Supercar and IndyCar halls of fame, respectively, but not here. Giving a team its first taste of success (G. Bodine-Hendrick, Martin-Roush, Jarrett-Gibbs, Allison-Yates, Rudd-Childress, Earnhardt-Osterlund, Wallace-Penske, Irvan-Morgan-McClure, etc...) Succeeding for a variety of teams/crew chiefs/car packages Succeeding in underfunded/underpowered equipment Overcoming adversity Johnson's Beard argued against Bodine, Bonnett, and Gant strictly going by wins and I think that's wrong. All three of those drivers should be locks. Bodine gave Hendrick Motorsports its first success, won on pretty much every type of track on the circuit, and did succeed in some questionable rides in the #15 and later-era #7. Junior gets a little credit for DEI, but not as much credit as Bodine (and Harry Hyde) get for Hendrick's initial success. I think Steve Park was just as important to DEI's initial success, and he sure as hell will not be inducted (nor does he deserve it, though he could have if he hadn't been injured...I thought he was better than Junior even then, but then I'm a biased road course fan who saw Park's first win live...). Gant won for two organizations - Hal Needham and Larry Jackson - which did nothing else, period. He was a specialist on short tracks and only struggled on the big superspeedways because he was down on power (once again, who cares about judging drivers on marquee race wins for this very reason?) Bonnett probably has the weakest case of the three, since he did drive for the Wood Brothers and piggybacked on their earlier success with Pearson. I do give him pretty major credit for having so much success with RahMoc, a team that basically sucked any year he wasn't driving for them. To me, a driver overachieving for an underdog team is way superior to a driver like Bobby Labonte or Jeff Burton, because B. Labonte piggybacked on Jarrett's earlier success, and Burton piggybacked on Martin's (I really LIKE BL but I think people overrate him solely because he's likable). Yes, Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart piggybacked on their teams' earlier successes, but there comes a level of success where this doesn't matter. But I see B. Labonte and J. Burton as much more questionable candidates for this reason, and they don't have an unquestionable level of success that trumps considering what the teams did before. They were winning races exclusively for premier teams (no, I don't really consider Childress underdogs now). They didn't really overachieve in years when their rides weren't good. B. Labonte won all his races with one team, almost all with one crew chief, and didn't do much of anything after Jimmy Makar left. Worse - he was basically a superspeedway specialist who didn't really get it done on drivers' tracks very much (one short track win and one rain-shortened Darlington win when he beat everyone out of the pits? Not too impressed.) He did not really adapt well to change and wasn't very versatile (neither did Dale Jarrett, who did very little without Robert Yates and Todd Parrott, but his stats were better, and he was somewhat more versatile, and he got the #18 its first wins and the #21 a win when they were struggling, which clearly trumps B. Labonte here.) I WOULD induct B. Labonte for being the only driver to win Cup and Busch titles in the modern era, but I want to see Richmond/Bodine/Bonnett/Gant/Irvan/Rudd/D. Allison/Kulwicki in first. All those guys manhandled their cars much more, overachieved in more questionable rides, got the first wins for their teams, succeeded on a much greater variety of tracks than even many champions, etc... That to me is more important than filling some silly quota of 20 wins or winning a title. And that's why I'd be more inclusive. There are drivers who in my opinion were better than champions/20-race winners who will be snubbed by these stringent criteria. By the way, this goes for crew chiefs too. I'd probably rate Andy Petree over Kirk Shelmerdine (despite fewer wins/titles) for Petree turning the #33 into a near-power in 1991-92 with Gant (when they were WAY more underfunded than anyone else winning, even Kulwicki), and I'd rate Robbie Loomis over someone like Greg Zipadelli, because Loomis brought the #43 back from the dead in the Bobby Hamilton/John Andretti years, which again, impresses me more than accruing vast win totals at an established powerhouse team. (Neither Loomis nor Zipadelli should probably be inducted, though. Petree and Shelmerdine both should.) Zipadelli will convince me he deserves induction if he can make Joey Logano a legitimate threat, much like Todd Parrott in my opinion proved to me he deserves an induction by putting Elliott Sadler into the chase (his dad, who turned Derrike Cope into a Daytona 500 winner and gave Rusty Wallace his best seasons should get in first though - bear in mind that I prefer dominance to consistency and you will realize why I think Rusty's '93 was better than '89). 117. Sean posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everybody agrees Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Mark Martin, and Bill Elliott deserve induction. They're not worth discussing. I'm not going to bother making percentages for current drivers, since I have no idea how drivers will continue to develop. I didn't see Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne, or Denny Hamlin ever becoming superstars for instance. You can equate my yeses to greater than 50% and nos to less than 50% if you like. Yes and no refers to who I would induct by the way, not who I think the hall will. Kurt Busch - yes. Even I'll admit 20 wins + a title will USUALLY be enough. I still have reservations about him. He was dominant at Roush, but has settled in to almost become a points racer at Penske. He's great at Bristol, but questionable on the other short tracks. He was not particularly responsible for Roush or Penske becoming/remaining powerhouse teams. Martin gets the credit for Roush and Wallace gets the credit for Penske. Granted, all the powerhouse teams are established now and the current structure of NASCAR makes it virtually impossible for new major teams to emerge. He is fairly versatile and winning every season helps his case as he can adapt to different crew chiefs, teams, cars (the COT didn't destroy his career like it did Jeff Gordon's). I don't really he think he's any worse than Terry Labonte was, and is more or less the same caliber of driver. He's had great equipment a bit more often, and will have a higher win total as a result. Not remotely first ballot or anything, but already deserves it. Matt Kenseth - yes. Gets some credit for giving Roush his first title. Has a nice win total, but is not quite as versatile as most drivers who have that number of wins. Has not done a whole lot without Robbie Reiser. In my opinion, his Busch success helps him here, as him elevating Robbie Reiser's mediocre Busch team was better than anything he did for Roush. Although I see Daytona 500 wins as almost irrelevant, it does help push him over the line in his case (particularly because Roush's plate program was clearly second-tier relative to Hendrick, Childress, Yates, DEI, or Morgan-McClure). I don't like his consistency-first driving style, and thought his 5th place finish in points last year was appalling, but he is probably better at points racing than anyone in his generation (except possibly Kevin Harvick, oddly). Just like Kurt Busch. Definitely induct, but with reservations, and not first year. Bobby Labonte - yes. While I find him overrated, due to the fact that almost all his relevant success came with one team and one crew chief predominantly on intermediate superspeedways, as with Kenseth, his Busch success helps him, and there is a bit of novelty to being the only Cup/Busch champion of the modern era. I give Dale Jarrett and Tony Stewart most of the credit for Gibbs' success (yes, BL got the first title, but it was Jarrett who got the first success, Stewart who elevated the team from second-tier to powerhouse). That hurts BL's case quite a bit in my opinion, but I'd still induct him. Winning a Busch title for his family team at the very least is impressive. Kyle Busch - yes. I'll be flamed for this one too, but he pretty much reminds me of Rusty Wallace. Wild inconsistency, being the best driver of his generation on short tracks, dominating all over the place but making tons of stupid errors and not having the points finishes he should (look at the number of wins Rusty had in '93, '94, '96 and '00 and his points positions and that should tell you all. Just like Kyle really.) Rusty only won a title when Earnhardt screwed up at North Wilkesboro, and I think Kyle's going to go the same way. He is always going to be a threat for the next 15 years but he'll never be as consistent as contemporaries like Johnson, Edwards, or Harvick. Having said that, his versatility is pretty much on par with Gordon or Stewart, I rate dominance more highly than consistency, and although he didn't improve Hendrick or Gibbs in any way (since they were already on top when he arrived there), he did improve HIS TEAMS the instant he arrived, with the #5 and #18 showing nothing for several years before his arrival, and that means something too. Although I hate his Buschwhacking and find his Nationwide/Truck wins meaningless, they will help his case in terms of the voting body. He is already a lock, and since he'll retire after most of the bigger locks are already in, he will probably be a first ballot lock, even if he only wins one race a year the rest of his career. Greg Biffle - yes. He got Roush his first Busch and truck titles. Yes, Roush has always had good equipment in any series, but his diverse success in several different series gets him in. Also, he has succeeded with a variety of crew chiefs in Cup, and has quietly succeeded pretty much every year without any notice, attention, or hype. Like the Ricky Rudds or Harry Gants of old, he pretty much just shuts up and drives, but oddly, I don't think his equipment has been anywhere near his teammates (especially the #99) yet he doesn't get much worse results (definitely better than Gant's equipment though). It's weird to think of Biffle as an underdog since he drives for Roush, but I think Kenseth and Edwards have been Roush's golden boys since Mark Martin left and Biffle is always lost in the shuffle, despite doing pretty much as well. He's the kind of driver who probably will be ignored due to lack of flash who shouldn't be (while flashy drivers like Junior and Harvick who shouldn't get in will be inducted). 118. Sean posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin - at the moment, no. I'd put him over Edwards or Harvick, though, because Hamlin is right there with Ky. Busch as the best short track driver and he dominates the physical tracks a bit more than those two do, and relies on cookie-cutters for wins a lot less. His eight wins in 2010 were a lot more significant than Newman's in 2003 since he dominated those races, and he has battled adversity winning while injured at Martinsville last year. Either repeating his 2010 results in any season or doing something without Mike Ford will put him in. Carl Edwards - at the moment, no. He dominates. He's pretty versatile. On the flip side, he has not remotely handled adversity or succeeded with multiple crew chiefs. Who's to say he won't drop off considerably like Jarrett did without Todd Parrott, B. Labonte without Jimmy Makar, or Kenseth without Robbie Reiser? Probably one more season like his 2008 (which might be this year) should put him in the yes column, but I'd be far more impressed at this point for him to do something without Bob Osborne than to continue to rack up lots of wins in a stable situation. Kevin Harvick - at the moment, no. This is the kind of driver I fear will get in if the voting body actually cared about "marquee race wins". Yes, he has a Daytona 500 win and Brickyard 400 win. Yes, he has flashy wins like his first win at Atlanta, his Daytona 500 win, and his win last Sunday. But I don't think he has as many wins as he should have in that equipment (as opposed to guys like Harry Gant, who had way more wins in Leo Jackson equipment than he should have; ditto Ernie Irvan at Morgan-McClure, or Neil Bonnett at RahMoc). Although I find Jeff Burton underwhelming enough to say Harvick is the best driver on the team, I think the whole team could be better and of the major powers, their overall talent is probably less on average than Hendrick, Roush, or Gibbs are. To his credit, Harvick has a very diverse record, having won on all the major types of tracks, but to me he seems to only actually care about racing in his contract years/years he is about to lose his sponsor. He points races way too much (for someone seen as so "aggressive") and hasn't won on a drivers' track in a long time (only winning at plate tracks and cookie cutters since 2006; sorry, not impressed). Harvick's career certainly isn't done yet, and if he lives up to the potential everyone expected, he will go in. But right now, no. Kasey Kahne - at the moment, no. Now here's a guy who deserves some credit much like Bonnett/Irvan/Gant/Rudd/Bodine... for doing great stuff with some unstable teams. My reservation on him is that mainly he sometimes has completely invisible seasons (but that's more due to his equipment than his talent) and that most of his success was in 2006 when he had by far the best cookie-cutter cars. He will be judged primarily by what he does for Hendrick. I really don't know what to expect. It wouldn't surprise me if he challenged Johnson; it wouldn't surprise me if he struggled to a win a year and finished in the back half of the chase regularly, sort of like modern Martin/Gordon. If he becomes a title threat at Hendrick for two or more seasons, I'd probably put him in. But certainly not hall-worthy yet. Jeff Burton - no. This is the one people are going to attack me on, I am sure. His win total is great, but it came at a time when there weren't many new talents to speak of. Between Ernie Irvan in '88 and Tony Stewart in '99, the only major Cup talents to emerge were Gordon, B. Labonte, and him, and all three of them have overinflated win totals for this reason. They were competing from 1997-2001 in their prime while the previous generation's veterans like Earnhardt/Wallace/Elliott/Rudd/T. Labonte were all in decline and few other new stars were emerging. That all changed in 2002 when the boomer drivers were gone and all the stars were Gen X drivers (that was the year the guard changed with Jarrett/Rudd having their last great seasons, and Kenseth/Johnson/Newman/Kurt Busch jumping into prominence). Interestingly, that was the exact moment Jeff Burton became irrelevant too - despite Roush doing great from 2002-2004. The way I see it, Burton was overshadowed by Martin the first half of his Roush career and Kenseth/Busch the second half. There were only two seasons he was the best driver on his team (2000-2001 (MAYBE '99), and 2001 was hardly a year to brag about for anyone at Roush). Then, upon moving to Childress, he was generally overshadowed by Harvick (which is pretty hard to do considering Harvick's invisibility). He has a great win total because he arrived at a great time when there were few new hot rookies (unlike the late '80s/early 2000s) and because he arrived in the era of multi-car teams when pretty much any good driver could land a major ride. He did not leave a major impact on Roush or Childress's history in my opinion. I say no. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - no. His stats are good beacuse he has always had good cars, but way too many of his wins are plate wins (the least relevant of all, in an era when Michael Waltrip was also winning them). He does have some good wins at drivers' tracks, like Dover, Richmond, and Phoenix, but those are all a long time ago now, and his career feels a lot like Jeff Burton's (four great seasons for his first great team, a lot of mediocrity after changing teams). Burton's case is probably marginally better than Junior's, but Burton should have done better for Childress than he has, and Junior should have done way better for Hendrick. Since it doesn't look like he's going to win many more races, despite having the best equipment on the track, I have to say no, and I don't see him changing that (unlike the drivers for which I put at the moment, no.) Ryan Newman - no. Being the most prolific polesitter shouldn't help your case (and he hasn't even been a prolific polesitter in many years). He hasn't really been diverse, not doing much of anything except winning fuel-mileage cookie cutter races and winning one-mile oval races (Phoenix, Loudon, Dover), sometimes even then due to strategy. Did not contribute very significantly to Penske (Wallace) or Stewart-Haas (Stewart, Hendrick)'s success. As with McMurray, his HoF case is dead on arrival. But he does have time to change that if he ever escapes from his slump. Jamie McMurray - no. Too lightweight. His case is dead on arrival. Again, I view marquee wins as basically irrelevant. I like him and enjoy watching him race though. I don't think he is even worthy of discussion at this point. So in summary: Lock even if their career ended today - J. Gordon, Johnson, Stewart, Martin, Elliott, Ku. Busch, Kenseth, B. Labonte, Ky. Busch, Biffle Not worthy yet (but probably will be at the end of their career) - Harvick, Edwards, Hamlin, Kahne Very unlikely to be deserving at the end of their career unless their current trends change radically - Burton, McMurray, Newman, Junior That's what I think... I love analyzing this stuff but I'm sure I'm gonna piss some people off with my takes on Burton, Junior, and even B. Labonte (whom I think should be in). And how come I'm the only person discussing Kasey Kahne for eventual induction when people brought up Newman and McMurray? I think Kahne has a much better case than them. 119. Sean posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, although I wrote most of that before RR made his post, he made a ton of the same points I did, which seem only logical. There should be no magic win threshold (like we both said); all drivers with the same number of wins shouldn't be equal (hence how I say yes to Irvan and no to Burton, although we disagree on Burton); I'd say the same for titles too (would anyone on earth rate Terry Labonte over Bobby Allison, for instance?). We also agree on winning on diverse tracks and longevity being factors, basically. I do think success in other divisions should mean something, as long as it came prior to the driver's Cup success (Biffle) rather than DURING it (Ky. Busch). I must be the only person arguing marquee wins mean nothing, though. 120. Cooper posted: 03.29.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Sean, the reason I believe that Main Event wins mean something is because their the ones that people remember. People will always remember Trevor Bayne because he is the Daytona 500 Winner. If he had won a different race, would he have gone on every television show in the world and appear all over newspapers. Probably Not. In the grand scheme of things, the top drivers will eventually win these races adding to their legacy. Unfortunately their are statistical outliers like Jamie McMurray, who have been lucky enough to win the big races. 121. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.29.2011 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent points being made here. Kudos to JJ's Beard for creating an excellent discussion topic. Good discussion without flaming. I like it. I'd just like to throw in what I think constitutes a HOFer: First and foremost, extended periods of excellence. I should have mentioned Mark as a lock. He won 3 races in 1990 (a 29 race season). 19 years later, he won 5 races in 2009. In between he had quite a few 4 and 5 win seasons, including a 7 win '98 which would have given him the title in most years were it not for Gordon's historic run that year. That is an extended period of excellence. My opinion on the one people seem to be split on: Bobby Labonte. I'd say no. When he was on top, he was great. But it didn't last long enough IMO. He won 3 races in '95, and performed at a legendary level from '99-'01. His 2000 Winston Cup championship doesn't get nearly enough credit. He completed all but SIX LAPS all season (34 races!). He forced a rejuvenated Dale Earnhardt into making mistakes just to keep up with his consistent pace. But I'd like to see at least 10 years of elite level performance for guys in his situation. Same for Dale Jarrett. Legendary performance from '96 through '02. Then his career fell apart. For me, I think the Hall has made its bed as far as making it clear they are exclusive, not inclusive. Not letting David Pearson in the 1st class? Are you serious? Cale and Darrell not making it in the first two classes? That tells me they want it to be exclusive. That also tells me they are giant France family ass kissers, but that is another story. Of course there are exceptions. Best example: Alan Kulwicki. Do I think he should be in the HOF? Absolutely. Sure he only has 5 wins, but he came down South to NASCAR as a nobody, built a team from nothing, not able to use a famous name to lure big money sponsors and experienced mechanics. He turned down the chance to drive for elite teams with big money contracts, and still beat them all in '92. Then his life (and career) was tragically cut short soon afterwards. Compare him to others that started their own Winston Cup teams around the same time frame, big names that could get big name sponsors: Darrell (Western Auto), Bill (McDonalds), Rudd (Tide) etc. they couldn't do what Alan did. But outside rare circumstances, I think the barriers should be high. I was thinking around 40 career wins. I don't think "marquee" wins should have an impact. Should Rusty's career mean less because he never won the Daytona 500? I don't think so. Should Michael Waltrip even be allowed to tour the HOF as a visitor? No. And he has 2 Daytona 500s. I want the HOF to only showcase the best of the best. "The problem is, there are some Nationwide and Truck drivers that are worthy of being in a Hall of Fame, but can you look use their stats there and for example, ignore Greg Biffle's Truck and Nationwide stats when considering him for the Hall? It wouldn't hardly be fair. Even trickier are the cases of Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch, since so much of their success in the lower series has come AFTER Cup success. To completely ignore theirs, but still consider Biffle's isn't fair either. " Excellent point. Biff did it the right way. I agree with what you are saying. "What NASCAR needs to do is change the induction format in a few years and make it more like what baseball does, with someone getting in only if they appear on a certain number of voting ballots a certain year. Some years you may only have 1 inductee, some years you might have 4 or 5." Another excellent point. Seeing as how it is NASCAR, I have a feeling things will change at some point. They can't ever leave anything alone. So hopefully it comes to fruition. 122. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.29.2011 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What's that smell? *sniff sniff* Smells like disaster..." Ooooh that smell Can't you smell that smell? Skynyrd rules and you are right. I can't believe Gillette would show his face in NASCAR again. He needs to do like Bobby Ginn and disappear. 123. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.29.2011 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmmm, many interesting points being made. I was really only scratching the surface of this debate, not expecting others to make cases for drivers based on anything but the truly superficial. But now we're getting into some good stuff like parity among wins and success with different crew chiefs and car packages. I may need to do more research and rethink my stance on a few drivers. 124. JP88 posted: 03.30.2011 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only current drivers I see going into the Hall of Fame are: Jeff Gordon Jimmie Johnson Tony Stewart Matt Kenseth - don't think he's ever been dominate enough despite the '03 title. Kurt Busch - up until the last 2 races of 2005, possibly, after the Roush firing, he hasn't been too consistent and had a couple subpar years. Bobby Labonte - I feel him and Dale Jarrett could both get in and I think Bobby deserves it but I don't think he's done enough besides his title. A couple big wins but because he hasn't won since '03 and has had a bad ending to his career as it winds down, much like DJ, not sure if 1 title will do it for him. Mark Martin - one of my favorites and will definitely be the best driver to never win the title (unless he does this year...or next...lol) with all the 2nd place finishes in pts. and the near-500 win along with all the wins, he is close but with the level the drivers who have been inducted have been, I don't think so unfortuneately. Carl/Kyle/Denny - way too young to discuss yet. Harvick - possibly if he wins a couple titles Newman/Biffle - No. As talented as they both are, I don't see them getting in unless they factor Biffle's GN and Truck titles. Unless Biffle completes the quest of championships by getting a Cup title, possibly for historical reasons. Jr. - Unless he gets a renewed vigor and goes on a tear and wins a title, maybe for all of his accolades. 125. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2011 - 8:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I definitely think if Bobby Labonte gets into the HoF, his brother Terry and Bill Elliot need to be in there before him. 126. RR posted: 03.30.2011 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A quick tally. Keep in mind that people have voted differently (likelihood vs. personal opinion). I tried to determine how people would vote the best I could, but I had to make educated guesses a few times when they weren't clear. For younger guys, the votes are based on their projected careers, and not their careers up to now. Gordon: Yes: 10 No: 0 Johnson: Yes 10 No: 0 Stewart: Yes: 10 No: 0 Martin: Yes: 9 No: 1 Harvick: Yes: 4 No: 6 Ku. Busch: Yes: 6 No: 4 Ky. Busch: Yes: 6 No: 4 Edwards: Yes 4 No: 6 Hamlin: Yes: 4 No: 6 Kenseth: Yes: 6 No: 4 Earnhardt Jr.: Yes: 3 No: 7 Burton: Yes: 4 No: 6 Biffle: Yes: 5 No: 5 Newman: Yes: 1 No: 9 127. G14 posted: 03.30.2011 - 12:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing to keep in mind here is it's the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the Sprint Cup Hall of Fame. Modified guys like Richie Evans will be inducted, so you can expect the same from Truck and Nationwide legends. With that said, how about someone like Jeff Green? Sure he S&P's now, but his 2000 championship season was one of the most dominating ever. And Martin Truex? His Cup career isn't worthy, but he is the last driver to win back to back to Nationwide titles, and was the last Nationwide regular to win a championship before the Cup guys invaded the series. You can bet NASCAR is going to look at that years down the road when all the legends have been inducted. Like someone already mentioned, 5 people a year is way too many. After 5 or so years, they need to cut it back to 2 a year. Even though he hasn't done much since 2003, Bobby Labonte will be a HOF'er one day. Going back to Nationwide accomplishments, Labonte is the only driver to date with a Nationwide and Cup title. That will get him in without a doubt. That's my take on this topic, very interesting perspectives from everyone. Good debate. 128. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2011 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, you should look at how many cup championships a cup driver has won besides wins. Joe Weatherly won only 25 cup wins despite having 2 cup championships. He also won a Nascar Modified Championship. The other thing you to need look at is the Nascar Hall of Fame isn't for cup drivers only. It is also made for regional legends such as Hershel McGriff and Richie Evans for an example. 129. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2011 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) G14, You forgot that the Nascar Hall of Fame isn't only for drivers for getting inducted. It is for crew chiefs, engine builders, car owners, track owners, Key Nascar people such as Dick Beatty, and contributors such as Chris Economaki 130. 00andJoe posted: 03.30.2011 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While that's true, a driver who had a great "lower-level" career but then went on to have several medoicre seasons in Cup will have that counted against him regardless of how brilliant his career at lower levels was. 131. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2011 - 1:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone played the new NASCAR video game yet? I'm curious for some reviews. 132. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.30.2011 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "you should look at how many cup championships a cup driver has won besides wins. Joe Weatherly won only 25 cup wins despite having 2 cup championships." You are absolutely right. Weatherly fals into the "Alan Kulwicki section". HE won two straight titles, then died the next season. (Side note: Why isn't this discussed more often. The Two Time Defending Champ died in a race!! That is major!) Another thing to consider: The early days have to be evaluated more closely. Due to the loose organization of stock car racing, the numbers may seem small, but they really aren't. Excellent example: Red Byron. Plus, back then, the championship wasn't a huge deal, race wins were. Look at Fireball Roberts' career. No championships, but he was pure checker or wrecker. As somebody mentioned on his driver page, he was Earnhardt before Earnhardt. And because the championship wasn't as prestegious then and didn't pay hardly anything, he didn't have an owner like Richard Childress to build a ton of reliability into his cars to hold him back. And I do think you have to consider "lifers" in the lower levels of stock car racing. Richie Evans is a lead pipe lock for the HOF. He was Petty, Pearson, and Earnhardt to the Modified Series. They even have one of his modifieds on Glory Road in the HOF. Others in this category: Hornaday for the Trucks (he was a Truck pioneer AND is a Truck legend), Ingram and Ard for the Busch Series. And here is one that should be mentioned: Ralph Earnhardt By most estimates, he won well over 1,000 dirt track races, tons of different track championships SOMETIMES IN THE SAME SEASON! He won the 1956 Busch title back when it was the Sportsman division and VERY loosely organized. In his case, I think being Dale's Dad has actually hurt his actual legacy. What Dale accomplished has cast such a shadow over everyone involved with him, that is what most people think of when they think of Ralph: "Dale's Dad, Idol, and Mentor". But his actual racing career was out of this world. 133. Sean posted: 03.30.2011 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I definitely think if Bobby Labonte gets into the HoF, his brother Terry and Bill Elliott need to be in there before him." Oh, clearly. Bobby Labonte is in my opinion the worst champion of the modern era, by far (probably also one of the NICEST, which may be connected...nice guys finish last and all that). He in no way trumps his brother who won more titles, won far more often on short tracks/road courses, built up a team that nobody else won a race for (Billy Hagan), came earlier in time (chronology should matter - a driver like Neil Bonnett should be in before someone who made a comparable amount of impact like Geoff Bodine), and was successful over a much longer period (when the sport changed far more than it did between 1995-2003). Elliott clearly deserves in before either Labonte (he built Melling Racing from an underfunded nobody family operation into a giant powerhouse, even bringing FORD back with him; this trumps Labonte because although he made the Billy Hagan team a power, it wasn't THAT kind of powerhouse) and although superspeedway success is less significant than success on other tracks, it meant more in Elliott's era than it does now. And when Elliott is in discussion for the best superspeedway driver of all time (probably not - Pearson) he FAR trumps either Labonte brother. Neither Labonte brother is close to one of the best of all time at their best discipline, at least as close as Elliott is on superspeedways. "The other thing you to need look at is the Nascar Hall of Fame isn't for cup drivers only. It is also made for regional legends such as Hershel McGriff and Richie Evans for an example." Yeah, I wasn't going there since we were only discussing current Cup drivers, but since you mentioned it, the following all belong in (at the very least) for their domination in regional touring series: West Series: Hershel McGriff, Ray Elder Modified: Richie Evans, Jerry Cook, Ray Hendrick, Mike Stefanik, Tony Hirschman, Reggie Ruggiero Weekly Series: Larry Phillips (Mark Martin and Rusty Wallace both say he was one of the best drivers they ever raced against) Grand American: Tiny Lund Convertible: Bob Welborn All-Pro: Jody Ridley Maybe I'm including too many modified drivers but I think modifieds are the most significant of the regional touring series and also drivers tend to dominate there more than the other tours (admittedly, Grand American and Convertible didn't last long). However, the first four modified drivers I listed are absolute musts - only Hirschman and Ruggiero could be considered on the bubble. "You can expect the same from Truck and Nationwide legends." Trucks should get one representative (Ron Hornaday). Last time I made a list, I included Mike Skinner for winning the first truck title and being more successful than most of the truck champions in Cup, but I've changed my mind. Hornaday only. As for Sportsman/Busch/Nationwide? Red Farmer, Jack Ingram, Sam Ard, Butch Lindley, and Ralph Earnhardt should be in. I'd opt more for longtime successful veterans on the tour like Tommy Houston/Tommy Ellis/Larry Pearson/L.D. Ottinger/etc... over guys who had brief, but great success (Martin Truex/Jeff Green/Randy LaJoie...) I wouldn't induct any of those though, and I think Farmer, Ingram, Ard, Lindley, and Earnhardt are enough. The above are all the minor league drivers I would induct unless somebody can make a good case for somebody else. I'll finish it off by listing everybody else I would induct too: Retired/semi-retired Cup drivers (in approximate descending order of preference): Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip, Fireball Roberts, Tim Flock, Buck Baker, Herb Thomas, Rusty Wallace, Red Byron, Joe Weatherly, Bobby Isaac, Curtis Turner, Fred Lorenzen, Benny Parsons, Rex White, Harry Gant, Marshall Teague, LeeRoy Yarbrough, Tim Richmond, Neil Bonnett, Alan Kulwicki, Ricky Rudd, Buddy Baker, Terry Labonte, Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, Davey Allison, Dale Jarrett, Dick Hutcherson, Marvin Panch, Fonty Flock, Wendell Scott, Janet Guthrie (last two solely for their status as pioneers - and I would take Guthrie who was the first to start at Daytona (and Indy for that matter) over somebody like Sara Christian or Louise Smith, though most might disagree) Car owners (in descending order of preference) - Wood Brothers (together...I don't want to see Glen get in alone since I think Leonard will be snubbed, sad but true), Holman-Moody, Banjo Matthews, Carl Kiekhaefer (I passionately hate him but the man established the model for multi-car teams), Richard Childress, Rick Hendrick, Jack Roush, Joe Gibbs, Raymond Parks (I don't understand his hype...just because he was there at the beginning? I think his impact is overestimated), Robert Yates, Nord Krauskopf, DiGard, Roger Penske Crew chiefs/engineers - Smokey Yunick, Dale Inman, Leonard Wood, Harry Hyde, Cotton Owens, Jake Elder, Waddell Wilson, Herb Nab, Ray Fox, Maurice Petty, Tim Brewer, Andy Petree, Kirk Shelmerdine, Gary Nelson, Chad Knaus, Ray Evernham, Buddy Parrott, Jeff Hammond, Todd Parrott, Ernie Elliott, Jimmy Fennig, Jimmy Makar (I sense this is the category where I would induct WAY more than anyone else, but I would argue all of those are deserving; Fennig and Makar are definitely bubble though) Two names many would include that I definitely would not: Larry McReynolds, Robin Pemberton. I feel both of those crew chiefs relied on being paired almost exclusively with premier drivers and frequently underachieving with them. Pemberton has almost no case in my opinion - Martin's best results came with Fennig and Hmiel, and Wallace's best results came with Buddy Parrott. McReynolds was responsible for Earnhardt's weakest seasons and Yates's best period was in the Todd Parrott era (I don't think Jarrett was close to Davey Allison or Irvan in talent, yet he got far more reliable results, implying to me that Parrott was far better than Larry Mac.) Promoters/track owners/NASCAR officials - T. Wayne Robertson (I rank him over Seagraves since Robertson being NASCAR's best promoter trumps Seagraves being a pioneer), Ralph Seagraves, Bruton Smith, Humpy Wheeler (I find his promotions as tacky as Ed Wood movies and I think he's had a bad influence on NASCAR's gimmicky recent direction, but influence is influence), Richard Howard (former owner of Charlotte/owner of the #11 before it became Junior Johnson's team), Harold Brasington, H. Clay Earles, Paul Sawyer. I may be unknowledgeable here. Anonymous mentions Dick Beaty, there are other people like Bill Gazaway who may be deserving. But I would tend to induct fewer in this realm than most would. And man, I hope Mike Helton never gets in. Announcers - Chris Economaki, Ken Squier, Bob Jenkins (part of me finds the idea of inducting announcers as kind of tacky, but Economaki was a pioneering racing reporter, Squier started MRN and convinced CBS to carry the Daytona 500, and Squier along with Jenkins brought middle America respectability to the sport and are largely responsible for making it national instead of regional (while Darrell Waltrip attempts to go back a few decades and make it regional again with his exaggerated redneck annoyances...) There are maybe others (Bill Simpson, the guy who invented the HANS device, certain NASCAR officials, etc...) and I would consider adding maybe 5 or 10 more names in that vein, but the above list is close to everyone I feel is worthy of induction. This is an attempt at objectivity, including people who were important that I passionately hate and would rather not see inducted (Carl Kiekhaefer, Ray Evernham, Humpy Wheeler...), and people whose names have been lost to history but still had important impacts (Nord Krauskopf, Herb Nab...) 134. Cooper posted: 03.30.2011 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Very Nice list Sean. I myself like Humpy Wheeler and his crazy promotions. Considering the all-star race needs to be a little tacky and all, Humpy does a good job promoting the event. Humpy will 100% get in. 135. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2011 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Kiekhaefer has an issue that needs to be considered by the voters that Nascar was lucky that it didn't in the last 20 or 30 years because it would have made the national sports news as a potential scandal. I read in the past from people like Ed Hinton that Carl Kiekhaefer actually told his driver Speedy Thompson to take out Herb Thomas, so Carl Kiekhaefer other driver Buck Baker would win the 1956 cup title. Herb Thomas left Carl Kiekhaefer during the 1956 and was in a close points battle that Carl Kiekhaefer's other driver Buck Baker won the title as a result of Speedy Thompson taking out Herb Thomas. Speedy Thompson following Carl Kiekhaefer's orders actually ending the cup career of Herb Thomas. Herb Thomas suffered major injuries from that wreck at Cleveland County Fairgrounds in Shelby, NC. Carl Kiekhaefer told Nascar to add Cleveland County Fairgrounds on the race schedule. If what Ed Hinton mentioned was true, there would have been people banned or suspended by Nascar if that incident happened with the last 30 years especially before safer barriers were on the tracks Nascar went. Picture the problems Nascar could face if team owner telling a driver take a driver out on a high speed race track like Daytona or Talladega for an example from a safety standpoint before Dale Earnhardt Sr.'s 2001 Daytona 500 death so another driver from the same organization could win a driver's championship trophy besides the owner's points battle. There was no head and neck restraints or safer barriers in Nascar before Dale's death. 136. Talon64 posted: 03.30.2011 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Something else I wanted to add about the Labontes' is that being the only brothers to both win the Cup championship will probably help both their cases a ton. Wouldn't be surprised to see them both inducted on the same ballot. And smeone else I'd like to bring up for the HoF is Davey Allison. A great rookie season back when rookies didn't have great seasons (but in equipment that Cale Yarborough proved was pretty good the previous few seasons), 19 wins in only 191 starts and had back-to-back 5-win, 3rd-in-points seasons before he died in 1993. Was in the running for the 1992 championship. In just 6 and a half seasons he won on 11 of 18 tracks he competed at; 5 wins at Talladega and Daytona (but he won the last non-plate Dega race), 5 intermediate wins, the first driver to win back-to-back races at Phoenix, 4 short track wins, and one win each at Dover, Sonoma (in controversial fashion) and Rockingham. About as diverse as you can get in 19 wins. I think the numbers by themselves put him on the cusp of making the HoF, but his death and the promise that the rest of his career had will likely put him over the top in voters' minds. 137. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.30.2011 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby Labonte is in my opinion the worst champion of the modern era, by far" Whoa, really? Not Matt Kenseth? And you even say by far... I'm just surprised about this. I know neither one is quite as dominating as some of their fellow champions, but still. I guess I'm just a Labonte fan. His 1999 and 2000 seasons are two of the strongest back to back seasons I remember anyone putting together. 9 wins, 10 runner-ups, 42 top 5's, 50 top 10's, 8.2 average finish. Granted, that was the absolute peak of his career, but it did come in an era when Jeff Gordon was king, Mark Martin, Dale Jarret, Rusty Wallace and Jeff Burton were still great, Dale Earnhardt was rejuvenated, and Tony Stewart was pretty much awesome right off the bat. And as we've been discussing, pretty much every one of those guys except maybe Burton are future Hall of Famers. Although I might just be remembering it more fondly than it really deserves. Still, I think Matt Kenseth is the weakest of the modern era Cup champions 138. Eric posted: 03.30.2011 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous on post 35 was correct about Carl Kiekhaefer. There is a couple correction that be done in terms of the facts around Carl Kiekhaefer ordering Speedy Thompson to take out Herb Thomas. Herb Thomas had the points lead going into the race that Carl Kiekhaefer ordered Speedy Thompson to take out or wreck Herb Thomas. Carl Kiekhaefer did order Nascar to add Cleveland County Fairgrounds on the race schedule, but Carl Kiekhaefer demanded Nascar to have a last minute race at Cleveland County Fairgrounds. 139. Eric posted: 03.30.2011 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Davey Allison really should go into the Hall of Fame down the road. Carl Kiekhaefer going into the Nascar Hall of Fame should really go by first hand information what happened with the Speedy Thompson getting into Herb Thomas. I am saying first hand information because Ed Hinton was 8 years old in 1956 unless Ed found out from people that were there when Speedy Thompson wrecked Herb Thomas. I have say no to Carl Kiekhaefer going into the Nascar Hall of Fame based on the knowledge available on what happened. A owner ordering their driver to wreck another driver for trying to win a champion isn't ethical at all and dangerous at the time. 140. Sean posted: 03.30.2011 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know about Kiekhaefer's story. That's why I said I hate him. He was a complete jerk, but...he did set the standard for multi-car teams in the future. If you're going to make a moral judgment against Kiekhaefer, that is opening a giant can of worms. Do you not induct Rick Hendrick for being convicted of mail fraud and (in the eyes of some) faking his leukemia to stay out of prison? Do you not induct drivers/car owners who ran moonshine? Do you not induct drivers for intentionally wrecking people on their own (which almost every driver has done)? Do you not induct Tim Richmond for having AIDS (which seems like something NASCAR would do)? Do you not induct crew chiefs who pretty much admitted they regularly cheated (Gary Nelson)? Kiekhaefer was probably the biggest jerk in NASCAR history, but the man had an impact. I admit I'm ruling against Jack Smith and Speedy Thompson in part for morality reasons (Smith was a racist who tormented Wendell Scott on the racetrack and Speedy Thompson was involved in Kiekhaefer's scheme), but I don't think they meet the criteria anyway. But Kiekhaefer had a way bigger impact than either of them did. I REALLY don't want him in the Hall of Fame personally, but I think he belongs. Sid Vicious and Phil Spector and Michael Jackson despite their controversies were inducted into the Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame, even though most would not call them particularly moral people. On the flip side, Pete Rose was denied from the baseball Hall of Fame for gambling, and Mark McGwire is probably going to be denied for steroids. In my opinion, neither of those are probably as bad as what Kiekhaefer did. So it depends on whether they're going to make some kind of "morality clause" or not. If they do (like MLB has done) no, Kiekhaefer doesn't deserve it. If they don't (like the RNRHOF), Kiekhaefer sadly does. But if there is a morality clause, Kiekhaefer shouldn't be the only one ruled out. I'd have a hard time inducting Rick Hendrick if you bring stuff like that into it... 141. Sean posted: 03.30.2011 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Whoa, really? Not Matt Kenseth?" He's in the running, but he seems to be a bit more versatile - better on short tracks and flat tracks and even plate tracks (not that that matters, but it does mean something when Roush has typically been down on plate track power...) He also didn't have the advantage of already having Cup connections when he started (as Bobby obviously did from his brother and his father owning a Busch team). Kenseth has already more or less matched B. Labonte in longevity and I think he'll easily pass Labonte's longevity in the next few seasons. He has done so in an era (2002-now) where NASCAR has radically changed and remained relevant, while Labonte disappeared in the Nextel era, even before losing the #18 ride, and the 1995-2003 period had far fewer changes than Kenseth's period of dominance. Kenseth has also tended to overachieve in seasons Roush is down (2001, 2009) relative to his teammates; Labonte has not. And the more seasons I'm watching Labonte struggle, the less I'm impressed. I expect Kenseth to remain relevant with Jimmy Fennig as his crew chief, while B. Labonte was unable to do a whole lot for Michael McSwain or Steve Addington or even Todd Parrott on both the #43 and #96 cars. Maybe by far was a stretch though... 142. Smokefan05 posted: 03.30.2011 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Do you not induct Tim Richmond for having AIDS (which seems like something NASCAR would do)?" NASCAR would be part of the reason but Tim did the rest of the damage himself for not telling the truth. While NASCAR screwed up, so did Tim. If Tim doesn't get then blame Tim himself aling with NASCAR. 143. Eric posted: 03.30.2011 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, While the Baseball Hall of Fame has a morality clause, theirs only affects on the baseball field such as betting on baseball games, not off the field stuff like rape, murder, cheating on taxes, moonshine, being a kkk member and being a racist. The Baseball Hall of Fame actually has Klu Klux Klan members that were hall of fame baseball players. Besides that, the baseball of fame has a member that bragged about killing a black person and bragging about getting away with with it (Ty Cobb). There is a bunch of womanizers and drunks in the baseball Hall of Fame also. What Rick Hendrick did is considered off the race track stuff that didn't outcomes in racing and would affect a morality clause as a result if the Nascar Hall of Fame has one. The same thing is true with moonshiners. Kiekhaefer's stunt affected competition on the track and that is a huge difference particularly in an era that racing was extremely dangerous due to lack of safety all around in stuff like not having fuel cells, seat belts not mandatory, and drivers falling out of stock cars after a crash. 144. 18fan posted: 03.30.2011 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What makes what Kiekhaefer did so bad is that Thomas left his team and was beating his driver for the championship, so Carl rents a track, demands NASCAR hold a race there, and uses his other driver to take out Thomas to win a championship and his order ended the career of one of the greatest drivers of all time, just for a championship. In the grand scheme of life, winning a championship by intentionally taking out another driver with orders is terrible. I bet Kiefhaefer didn't just want a wreck, he wanted something more serious. If I were NASCAR his name would never show up on the Hall of Fame ballot. 145. Red posted: 03.31.2011 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Sean, that may have the best series of posts I've ever seen on this site. I wholeheartedly agree that winning "crown jewel" races shouldn't carry any extra weight, particularly the Daytona 500. Thank you Michael Waltrip. Not only do I think championships are overrated, I think they're worthless. I know I'm in the very small minority on this, but here is my reasoning: single race stats, like wins, top-5's, and laps led, are objective. The driver who crosses the finish line first is the race winner, period. Conversely, championships are determined by an arbitrary points system, which may or may not measure a driver's true performance. And in NASCAR's case, I feel that the various points systems have not been very effective at actually crowning the best driver during the season. Instead of championships, I look at "Best Driver" years, which is pretty self-explanatory, albeit subjective. For example, I feel very strongly that Matt Kenseth should NOT be in the HoF, in spite of his title. Matt has never been the best driver in any season, and other than 2006, I don't think he's even been top-3 in a season. Besides, I think it would set a bad precedent if guys like Kenseth, Burton, and Harvick get inducted, because conservative points racing should NOT be rewarded and celebrated. Kurt Busch is another one that seems borderline at best, despite having a title. In my opinion, he's never been the best in any season, and only been top-3 once, in 2002. Granted, his Penske equipment hasn't been stellar, and he has thoroughly outperformed his teammates. But still, I think Kurt needs 30+ wins before I'd let him in. Bobbby Labonte? No. Same reasons as Kenseth. Bobby had better peak years, but as others have said, he won most of his races on cookie cutter tracks, which are more about the car than the driver. Basically, I think the HoF should be reserved for truly GREAT drivers, not just very good ones. 146. Eric posted: 03.31.2011 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I meant by "What Rick Hendrick did is considered off the race track stuff that didn't outcomes in racing and would affect a morality clause as a result if the Nascar Hall of Fame has one. The same thing is true with moonshiners." was What Rick Hendrick did is considered off the race track stuff that didn't outcomes in racing and wouldn't affect a morality clause as a result if the Nascar Hall of Fame has one. The same thing is true with moonshiners. Besides, how many drivers would wreck a driver just getting someone seriously hurt or killed on purpose? The answer is not a lot. Even Dale Earnhardt Sr. didn't want any driver to get seriously hurt or killed in mind for rattling drivers cages. Crew Chiefs is a whole different animal in racing. Crew Chiefs should get in due to the fact there are pitchers in the baseball hall of fame that were known to cheat by doctoring baseballs by using sand paper, snot, Vaseline or what ever else for that matter for a competitive edge for pitching in terms of better group or make their pitches faster. 147. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 03.31.2011 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So a lot of people are saying Labonte doesn't deserve to get into the Hall of Fame, and maybe they're right, but I still think he will just because of the way I see them picking drivers. The arbitrary stuff will push him over, like him and Terry being champion brothers, his titles in 2 NASCAR series, the supposed "big" wins, and I might be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure he was the first driver to own wins in Truck, Nationwide, and Cup at the same track when he won the Truck race at Martinsville in 2005 (his wikipedia page says that, so it could be wrong, could be right). I just feel like these things, even if you don't agree he's done enough on the track, are going to affect the way people vote on a driver. Especially if the people who select the Hall of Fame are considering a driver's overall NASCAR career, they're going to look at Labonte as somebody who was a Nationwide champion who also later became a Cup champion. That will count for a lot. That Truck win puts him on the list of guys who won races in all 3 series. He has a consecutive starts streak that is already top 6 all time, and by the end of next season would place him 4th all time, just 1 behind Jeff Gordon in 3rd. I don't know how long Labonte plans on driving, but I don't see next season being his last. Maybe the one after. Still, he's going to be looking at basically 700 consecutive starts. Regardless of whether he was running in the back in the latter part of his career, he was always there every weekend, through a lot of NASCAR history. Between him and Terry, a Labonte has been in every Cup race since the beginning of 1979. Think about that. I'm pretty sure only the Petty family appeared in a longer streak of races. So the Labonte name is intertwined with more than 3 decades of NASCAR history, and both Labonte's are champions. Does anyone really not still think that Terry and Bobby will make it, regardless of your personal feelings about what they did on the track? And I know a consecutive starts streak might seem like it doesn't really mean anything, but ask yourself this, when Ricky Rudd comes up for eligibility is his Ironman record going to affect the way the Hall voters vote? I guarantee you it will. It's an arbitrary stat, but nonetheless another little thing that I believe is going to make the difference on a driver like Bobby Labonte and his chances of making the Hall of Fame. His on the track results put him on the fence. These kind of things will push him over the edge. If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times, stats don't mean everything in a Hall of Fame. 148. Smiff_99 posted: 03.31.2011 - 10:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Retired/semi-retired Cup drivers (in approximate descending order of preference): Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip, Fireball Roberts, Tim Flock, Buck Baker, Herb Thomas, Rusty Wallace, Red Byron, Joe Weatherly, Bobby Isaac, Curtis Turner, Fred Lorenzen, Benny Parsons, Rex White, Harry Gant, Marshall Teague, LeeRoy Yarbrough, Tim Richmond, Neil Bonnett, Alan Kulwicki, Ricky Rudd, Buddy Baker, Terry Labonte, Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, Davey Allison, Dale Jarrett, Dick Hutcherson, Marvin Panch, Fonty Flock, Wendell Scott, Janet Guthrie (last two solely for their status as pioneers - and I would take Guthrie who was the first to start at Daytona (and Indy for that matter) over somebody like Sara Christian or Louise Smith, though most might disagree" No offense, Sean, but Dale Jarrett should be WAAAAY higher in the order (I know it's rough, but still).......3 Daytona 500's, a Coke 600, 2 Brickyards, 30+ wins and a Championship. Despite Terry's 2 titles to Dale's 1, I'd say Dale should be ranked higher. Others who should be AFTER Jarrett.......Irvan, Gant Bonnett, Richmond, Isaac, Rudd, Bodine, Kulwicki, Allison (Davey), Baker (Buddy) 149. Sean posted: 03.31.2011 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, here we go. Terry Labonte > Dale Jarrett. I don't care about the difference in championships. I mean Bobby Allison has the same number of titles as Jarrett and I wouldn't rank T. Labonte over him. Terry is superior because he elevated the mediocre Billy Hagan team into a championship-caliber team, while most of Jarrett's success happened with Yates, which was already a powerhouse team. It was Tony Stewart, not Dale Jarrett, who elevated Gibbs to championship-caliber. Labonte was superior on short tracks and road courses, and he was able to win with several organizations and crew chiefs over a much longer time period when NASCAR changed far more than it did at Jarrett's peak in the late '90s. I also believe earlier drivers should have a bit of a precedent over later drivers (hence why I put Buck Baker over Rusty Wallace or Red Byron over plenty of other drivers). Ernie Irvan > Dale Jarrett. Irvan built Morgan-McClure up from a third-tier operation into a powerhouse; Jarrett's success with Gibbs isn't really analogous as he won a plate race and an intermediate race in three years - much more like what Marlin did with Morgan-McClure after Irvan left; good, but not as great. Irvan by contrast was running up front everywhere; Jarrett wasn't as much. Irvan was more versatile and was better on short tracks and road courses. His period from taking the Yates ride to his Michigan injury was in my opinion the best one-year period in Yates's history as a team (for an individual car; yes, some of Yates's multi-car seasons were better). He also came back to win from one of the worst NASCAR injuries ever, something I don't think Jarrett (or hell, almost anyone else) could have done. Jarrett's stats are better, but there's more to life than stats. Harry Gant > Dale Jarrett. Of all the drivers with ten or more wins, I would say Gant had on average the worst equipment of any of them. Hal Needham? Leo Jackson? Those teams were underfunded, weak, and questionable, and neither of them did anything whatsoever without him. When Gant was matched with Andy Petree, they could almost beat anyone despite having fewer employees than probably even Kulwicki did. Gant's stats are very impressive considering how old he was when he came to Cup and the crappiness of his equipment (Gant never had anything resembling a major ride). Jarrett has a bit of a parallel here with regard to age but he did start in Cup in his early 30s, younger than Gant was. He was far better on short tracks, and was successful over a period that had more radical change than the period Jarrett drove. Jarrett's career stats are inflated because he had the factory Ford ride the entire run from 1996-2001 (I just wish Mark Martin had been the factory Ford driver at that time instead, but Yates seemed to be the preferred team over Roush for quite some time, until 2002 when it became apparent Yates had few future prospects and Roush had dozens.) Neil Bonnett > Dale Jarrett. This one's more questionable. He did have a premier factory ride himself with the Wood Brothers replacing David Pearson and much like Buddy Baker, frequently underachieved in it due to driving too aggressively. On the flip side, he got great results with the RahMoc team, a team nobody else ever did anything with, which is more impressive than Jarrett winning for teams that won plenty of other races (even though Gibbs was just emerging and Wood Brothers were clearly in decline). Jarrett overachieved in the good rides more, but Bonnett overachieved in the bad rides more. I'm marginally more impressed by the latter, but I might call it a push. In that scenario, I defer to Bonnett who came first. Tim Richmond > Dale Jarrett. Richmond might be the greatest road racer in NASCAR history. Was Jarrett even remotely close to the best at any discipline? Bobby Isaac > Dale Jarrett. Yeah, you can make a connection here in that Isaac was the factory Mopar driver of his era as Jarrett was the factory Ford driver of his, they both had relatively short peaks where they were totally dominant and fairly weak beginnings and ends to their career. Isaac was (mostly) a short-track driver only and Jarrett was (mostly) a superspeedway driver only, but they were both a BIT more versatile than that. Jarrett had a bit more longevity as Isaac was only really competitive in the aero-war years. However, I opt for Isaac because I'm more impressed by short track success than superspeedway success, he came first, and he made it to Cup with no connections (unlike Jarrett, who due to his father's success, had a few more breaks...) Ricky Rudd > Dale Jarrett. Rudd's longevity was unrivaled by very few drivers in NASCAR history, first and foremost. He started winning when Petty/B. Allison/Yarborough were still relevant, and won his last race the year Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch emerged, coming rather close to bridging the gap between the modern era and the "post-modern" Nextel era all by himself. He won Childress's first races, putting him on par with Jarrett winning Gibbs's first races. He won for the fledgling #26 Kenny Bernstein car, on par with Jarrett's Wood Brothers win. Rudd succeeded for many more teams with many more crew chiefs over a much longer time period with much more diversity in where he won. Rudd was the best road racer in his prime and one of the best short track racers. His main problem is that although he was with all the right teams, he was with them at the wrong times (RCR before Earnhardt made it a powerhouse, Bud Moore when they were starting their decline, and he actually beat Earnhardt's points positions, Kenny Bernstein, which sucked start-to-finish, Hendrick in the Chevy Lumina period which was the only period they weren't a powerhouse (and Rudd still finished 2nd in points in '91 and led all the Chevys in '92), then driving for himself (he was more successful than any other owner-driver of the '90s except Kulwicki), then Yates, which was the only team close to its peak while he was there in his prime). Yes, Jarrett won more races while they were teammates, but in terms of how they actually ran in the races, they were pretty much dead even (and I think Jarrett had better equipment, much like Edwards has better equipment than Biffle now). I clearly opt for Rudd. 150. Sean posted: 03.31.2011 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Geoff Bodine > Dale Jarrett. This is a closer one than most, but I think Bodine giving Hendrick his first success trumps Jarrett giving Gibbs his first success just barely, given Hendrick and Gibbs's future histories. Jarrett was a lot more consistent, but Bodine was a lot more dominant, and I find dominance more important (I would probably take G. Bodine's '94 over Jarrett's '93 and I'm not even kidding about that). Bodine was also better on short tracks and road courses, and he REALLY proved himself in the '90s in his post Junior Johnson years, when he got dominant wins in those very questionable Bud Moore cars (yes, Jarrett won in the Wood Brothers and Gibbs cars, but all those wins were just barely, and Bodine was winning more dominantly in the Bud Moore cars at Martinsville and Sears Point, while Jarrett was winning in the 21/18 at Michigan, Daytona, and Charlotte. Which is more impressive again? Bodine was also one of the more successful owner-drivers in the #7. Bodine also gets a boost for being one of the better modified drivers and for bringing some innovations into the sport (i.e. power steering). Alan Kulwicki > Dale Jarrett. Kulwicki won a title with what was probably about the tenth best car. Jarrett won a title with what was almost certainly the best car. End of discussion. I mean yeah, Jarrett is better than somebody like Junior who has underachieved with so many of the best cars, that goes without saying. But I'm far more impressed with somebody who gets great results out of lousy cars than somebody who gets slightly greater results out of great ones. Davey Allison > Dale Jarrett. There's a parallel here, given that they were both sons of legends who drove for Yates and are both quite overrated, largely because they had stable rides when plenty of superior contemporaries didn't. They're overrated for different reasons though. Davey is overrated because people have ridiculous expectations for what he would have done in his career (most people say he would have gone on to Jeff Gordon numbers, which I don't see at all). Jarrett is overrated because he had a stable ride and did most of his domination on horsepower tracks with the best cars (or second best, if you think the 24 had better equipment, but I actually think the 88's equipment was better, with the 24's advantages being a better driver, a better crew chief, and a better pit crew). But I thought everybody agreed Davey was better than Jarrett? He was clearly more versatile and overcame much more adversity (can you imagine Dale Jarrett being injured four times and still almost winning the title? Really?) Davey (along with Irvan) also provided the previous success that gave Jarrett an opportunity to slide into the ride and dominate. Buddy Baker > Dale Jarrett. Well, this is almost a dead wash. As with Davey, both overrated sons of legendary fathers who were almost exclusively superspeedway drivers who had the best rides of their time. Jarrett was more consistent and more versatile, but Baker had a bit more longevity and succeeded in more rides. They are essentially equal. Jarrett WAS the Baker of his time, only a lot more consistent, but that's mainly because it was easier to be consistent in the '90s when the cars were much more reliable than when Baker drove. Since the two are so close, I have to go for Baker who came first. I can maybe see someone saying Jarrett trumps Baker, Bonnett, or Bodine with his greater stats, and I might give a little on those three drivers, but Labonte, Irvan, Gant, Richmond, Isaac, Rudd, Kulwicki, and Davey? No freaking way. Also, your case for Jarrett should be more about his overachievement in the #21 and #18 and his long-running consistent success in the #88 than about marquee race wins. Lots of people can get marquee race wins when they have the factory Ford ride of their era. I'd be more impressed with Jarrett's win at Phoenix (one of the harder tracks on the circuit), when he came from almost a lap down to win without the aid of caution, than anything he did at Daytona. In fact, I see his Phoenix win as his greatest career accomplishment even (and that's not an insult - I just find titles and marquee race wins to be overrated, or like Red said, almost irrelevant). Once again, Jarrett clearly has shown talent pretty much everywhere (except the road courses) and without question deserves induction. I just think those particular drivers you named were all superior (or equal but earlier). 151. Eric posted: 03.31.2011 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The other thing that will Help Ricky Rudd out going to the Nascar Hall of Fame is the fact he's the only owner/driver that won the Brickyard 400. The Brickyard 400 for the most part for winners in a Nascar Hall of Fame list with Kevin Harvick and Jamie McMurrary being the weakest winners of the event. Here is the list of cup driver that won the Brickyard 400: Jeff Gordon - automatically goes to Nascar Hall of Fame once he's eligible for it. Dale Earnhardt Sr. - already in Nascar Hall of Fame Dale Jarrett - will be in Nascar Hall of Fame Ricky Rudd - will be in the fence for the Hall of Fame. Bobby Labonte - Will be in Hall of Fame based on being champion in 2 different series. Kevin Harvick - won major events, but resume is lacking on cup side currently. Bill Elliott - Once eligible for Hall of Fame, He's in. Tony Stewart - He's in Automatically. Resume is very strong for a 40 year old driver. Jimmie Johnson - He's only 35, but he goes in Hall of Fame due to extremely strong cup resume. Jamie McMurrary - not going to Nascar Hall of Fame. He could have 10 to 15 cup win career and that is it. 152. Talon64 posted: 03.31.2011 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ricky Rudd needs to be in the HoF. The Ironman of NASCAR, he got his 1st win in 1983 at the age of 26 and his last win in 2002 at the age of 45. I wish he'd have won at Kansas in 2004 instead of Joe Nemechek, 21 years after his 1st win. He never won more than 2 races in a season and he only did that 5 times, but he had at least 1 win in 16 straight seasons and he won with 6 different organizations, including himself as the last single car owner/driver to win races. And he arguably had his best season in 2001, his 25th season in Cup. He's one of the greatest road racers of all time with 2 wins each at Riverside, Infineon and Watkins Glen. And great on tracks a mile or shorter, 11 of his 23 career wins, and he had a great record at North Wilkesboro but could never win there. He won at 14 of 28 tracks he competed at. 153. Talon64 posted: 03.31.2011 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm trying to find what Cup champion was outside the top 10 in points the latest in a season but still won the championship. I started by skipping the Chase era since I don't feel that should really count. But... I can't really find a significant case. It's usually 3-4 races into the season at worst. Points-spot-after-each-race only goes back to 1975 but I sincerely doubt anything longer exists back then. Rusty Wallace fell to 5th in points, 165 points behind the point leader with 12 races to go in 1989, but 7 straight top tens including 3 wins got back to the point lead and he wouldn't give it up. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Dale Earnhardt won 6 of the first 8 races in 1987 to practically wrap up the season! In the Chase era Jimmie Johnson was 8th in points, 156 behind the point leader, 4 races into the Chase but came back to win the championship in the last 6. A couple other tidbits I found while looking back: Although Terry only won 2 races when he won the championship in 1996, he also had 7 runner-up finishes (9 top 2 finishes compared to 13 for Jeff Gordon). The only Cup champion to pull off a Sebastien Vettel (only time they led the points was after the last race of the season) was Alan Kulwicki in 1992. Matt Kenseth won only 1 race when he won the championship in 2003, but had 7 wins in the 38 races surrounding that season (35 in 2002, first 3 races of 2004). 154. Smiff_99 posted: 04.01.2011 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should've said this before, but, I was figuring who the Hall would be inducting first. Honestly, your entire breakdown was spot on. I was basing my rankings on what the actual voters will probably do. I have just as much appreciation for the impactful guys (Kulwick, Bodine, Richmond) as the next guy, but when it comes time to vote, you'll see Jarrett go in before some of the other guys you've mentioned.....simply because of his stats. And YES, his victory at Pheonix in '97 was one of his best......coming from nearly a full lap down to win, without a caution, to pull himself within reach of Gordon for the title......kick-ass. If gordon had just given up 15 points at some point during that season, DJ would be a 2-timer. 155. Madison posted: 04.01.2011 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing that helps Bobby is that [for now] he's the only driver to have won a Busch Series and Winston Cup Series championship. 156. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2011 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "His period from taking the Yates ride to his Michigan injury was in my opinion the best one-year period in Yates's history as a team" I agree 100%. That is the thing about Ernie's injury: He was finally maturing behind the wheel, knowing when to run all out (which he was excellent at) and when to hold back. But at least he lived, his children still have their father, his wife still has her husband, and he even got to race again and win races in Winston Cup. But I have to disagree about Davey being overrated. Yeah, he had some great equipment, but he still did the job. 19 wins in 6 and 1/2 seasons is damn good, especially considering those were at NASCAR's competitive peak. And, like Ernie, he was maturing behind the wheel. He was extremely versatile, winning on every short track except Martinsville (Bobby never won there), many plate track wins, Charlotte and Michigan wins, Dover, Rockingham, and Phoenix wins, and a road course win (controversy be damned, the right driver was awarded victory in that race). Big track, small track, high banked, low banked, he could run on them all. He was just 32 when he died, right about the time a driver typically enters their prime. Considering how Yates did in the years after his death, I don't think it is unrealistic to project at least 2 championships (I think it would have been more) and 30 more wins at minimum. 157. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2011 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kimi Raikonnen signs with KBM. Smart move. 158. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2011 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But I have to disagree about Davey being overrated. Yeah, he had some great equipment, but he still did the job. 19 wins in 6 and 1/2 seasons is damn good, especially considering those were at NASCAR's competitive peak. And, like Ernie, he was maturing behind the wheel. He was extremely versatile, winning on every short track except Martinsville (Bobby never won there), many plate track wins, Charlotte and Michigan wins, Dover, Rockingham, and Phoenix wins, and a road course win (controversy be damned, the right driver was awarded victory in that race). Big track, small track, high banked, low banked, he could run on them all. He was just 32 when he died, right about the time a driver typically enters their prime." Replace Davey and with Kyle Busch, and basically this entire paragraph still works, with very minimal changes that make it apply to Busch. Look: "But I have to disagree about Kyle being overrated. Yeah, he had some great equipment, but he still did the job. 20 wins in 6 and 1/4 seasons is damn good, especially considering those were at NASCAR's competitive peak (more leaders per race and more passing than ever, so yeah, some could make this argument for NASCAR today as well). And, like Ernie, he was maturing behind the wheel. He was extremely versatile, winning on every short track except Martinsville (Bobby never won there), many plate track wins, Atlanta and California wins, Dover, Darlington, and Phoenix wins, and two road course wins (controversy be damned, the right driver was awarded victory in that race). Big track, small track, high banked, low banked, he could run on them all. He is just 25, a few years before the time a driver typically enters their prime (so suddenly you agree he's not even to that point yet?). Considering how good Gibbs is doing since he got there, I don't think it is unrealistic to project at least 2 championships (I think it could be more) and 30 more wins at minimum." See? I barely had to change anything. 159. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.02.2011 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but he still did the job. 20 wins in 6 and 1/4 seasons is damn good, especially considering those were at NASCAR's competitive peak (more leaders per race and more passing than ever, so yeah, some could make this argument for NASCAR today as well)." First of all, Davey got his 19 wins back when they only had 29 races per season. Kyle gets 7 extra chances per year. I'm sure Davey's winning % is better. And NASCAR is at its lowest competitive point since the 60s. Yes the depth has improved from 10th to 30th, but up front, there is pretty much one guy and a small handful of others that can rise up every so often to mount a challenge before hitting the skids for a few seasons. The number of very talented, mentally stable drivers in elite equipment that don't have outside distractions and are not washed up is very low. In fact, by my count, there is only one that gets a checkmark in every category, and he's the guy that wins the Cup every year. "(so suddenly you agree he's not even to that point yet?)" Of course I agree. But the problem is he is burning himself out. He is putting three times the amount of pressure on himself that JJ is by trying to a weekly factor in all 3 divisions. That is the biggest reason for his late season swoons. By the time the last 10 races rolls around, he has spent almost 8 solid months putting himself through the emotional grinder 2 and 3 times a week. He is simply emotionally spent. He can get late season wins in Trucks and NWide by letting his talent and superior equipment carry him over weaker fields, but in the Cup races, with others on equal footing equipment wise, deeper fields, longer races, and more prestige at stake, he can't mentally get up for the challenge. That is why he had his meltdown at Texas last year, that is why he had such a lackluster final 10 races in Cup in '09 when he missed the cha$e and had nothing to lose which should have played right into his wheel house, and why in '08 after 3 straight mechanical issues to start the cha$e he never mounted a "Screw it, we may be out of the championship, but I'm gonna remind you guys who won 8 of the first 22 races" run. I predict he'll be out of the sport before JJ, and he's 10 years younger. 160. Jarrett88fan posted: 04.02.2011 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) These are some fascinating conversations about HOF eligibility. I would like to applaud all the posters on this page, this is really interesting and FUN! Because of politics, Jarrett will get in before Rudd, Bodine, Richmond, etc. Why else did his father get in the second class of Nascar HOF? Why did Pearson and DW get snubbed? It seems to me, politics plays a major role in determining who gets due to the fact that the selection committee is consensus-driven. 161. HereWeGoAgain posted: 04.02.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I predict he'll be out of the sport before JJ, and he's 10 years younger." What a truly stupid thing to say. Does anyone else here actually agree with this? I want to know who else is too stupid to bother paying attention to ever again. 162. Eric posted: 04.02.2011 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, Ned got in because he was 2 time champion was the first Nascar driver to be in radio and television. Ned was a great broadcaster for Nascar. It is shame that Darrell Waltrip and Micheal Waltrip lowered that standard as broadcasters sadly. It is debatable on how good his championship years were since Richard Petty wasn't racing in cup in 1965 and Ned's 1961 champion was pretty weak with one win in 46 races. 163. Cooper posted: 04.03.2011 - 10:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 161. HereWeGoAgain posted: 04.02.11 - 7:49 pm "What a truly stupid thing to say. Does anyone else here actually agree with this?" No. Considering that he has his own team and everything, he'll probably be here till he's 60. Not sure why DSFF said that, I'd like to here his explanation if he has the chance to do so. 164. Jarrett88fan posted: 04.03.2011 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, Very valid points concerning Ned Jarrett. The selection committee considered the whole driver/broadcaster profile and the need for balance, i.e. drivers, owners/crew members, broadcasters, pioneers, etc. I predict this year's voting will reveal a common template for HOF selection, this again due to consensus building among the selection committee. 165. Ryan posted: 04.03.2011 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby just months prior to Dale's death was in a serious crash for Qualifying or practice for the 2000 Southern 500. Dale's death and Bobby's serious crash might of taken a competitive edge off with him." Labonte won that race. 166. Ryan posted: 04.03.2011 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Nascar Hall of Fame predictions: Tim Flock Cale Yarborough Darrell Waltrip Benny Parsons Rick Hendrick, Richard Childress or Fireball Roberts 167. the_man posted: 04.03.2011 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 22nd place finish: "We just made adjustment after adjustment and never could make it right. You know, me and Drew and our team engineer have just got to sit down and take a look at the adjustments we made and see where we can make it better. I think we had an opportunity to finish better than we did.? 168. Madison posted: 04.04.2011 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby just months prior to Dale's death was in a serious crash for Qualifying or practice for the 2000 Southern 500. Dale's death and Bobby's serious crash might of taken a competitive edge off with him." "Labonte won that race." Not to mention the championship. What really took away Bobby's competitive edge was when [or so I've heard] Joe Gibbs started giving Bobby all of Tony's loose setups that did not fit Bobby's driving style. Then any team he drove for after that he drove for them at the worst time practically in the team's history. 169. Robert Nelson posted: 07.12.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points: Carl Edwards 69 Kyle Busch 62 Jimmie Johnson 48 170. Maverick19 posted: 11.23.2019 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Now that the 2010's decade has come to an end, I feel like this was the battle for the win that perfectly encapsulated the decade. A three way run between Kyle Busch, Kevin Harvick, and Jimmie Johnson, the 3 drivers who combined to win the most races and 6 of the 10 championships in the decade. 171. Rich posted: 12.19.2020 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Joy, Larry McReynolds and Darrell Waltrip were the commentators. Matt Yocum, Dr. Dick Berggren, Krista Voda and Steve Byrnes were the pit road reporters. Chris Myers and Jeff Hammond were in the Hollywood hotel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: