|| *Comments on the 2011 Heluva Good! Sour Cream Dips 400:* View the most recent comment <#212> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Corndog posted: 06.18.2011 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Kurt never learned to share. 2. Schroeder51 posted: 06.18.2011 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy crap. 3 straight poles. 3. Anonymous posted: 06.18.2011 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh cool, these comments go up ahead of time now? I predict Carl Edwards wins this race. 4. 00andJoe posted: 06.18.2011 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...huh, this is up early. Anyway, something I just discovered: T.J. Bell is competing for ROTY. 5. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.18.2011 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is up way early compared to race charts of the past. Sucks to see Brian Kez go home. 6. Anonymous posted: 06.18.2011 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I he only one who expects to somehow fall short of the win again, even if he dominates. David Stremme starting 32nd goes to prove that "being fastest in practice is related to qualifying" that the announcers push is a bunch of bull. 7. Anonymous posted: 06.18.2011 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah these go live with the qualifying results now 8. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.18.2011 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Any predictions on NASCAR's penalty for the JGR teams? 9. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.18.2011 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, published too soon. Anyone else find it ironic Denny talked all sorts of trash about Bowyer and RCR last year after their violation (setting the wheels in motion for him and Harvick to gift wrap the championship for the 48), and now JRG has got busted twice in 5 days? Between him and Mike Ford, which one has their foot furthest down their own throat? 10. 00andJoe posted: 06.18.2011 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #6 - What they "push" is that practice times in the first practice are related to qualifying by setting the qualifying order (and up until last week it was combined practice times). Stremme, Yeley et. al. ran fast in the second practice because they were still running qualifying setups while most of the teams had switched to race practice. 11. Ultimate Warrior posted: 06.18.2011 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF you still think I'm cool 12. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.18.2011 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyone else find it ironic Denny talked all sorts of trash about Bowyer and RCR last year after their violation" Very. It's like they say, don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. The fact is, every competitive team has been busted for a rules infraction some time or another. 13. 18fan posted: 06.19.2011 - 2:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The main reason the Gibbs oil pans were so much of an issue were how heavy they were compared to the normal weight. According to what it says on Jayski, an average oil pan weighs about four pounds and the Gibbs oil pans were 20-30 pounds each. 14. Brad posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @DSFF: Just let it go about Harvick and Hamlin already. Half the things you talk about are related to how Harvick ir Hamlin or both of them gave Jimmie Johnson the championship. They both ran amazing during the chase. Harvick finished in the top 10 in 9 chase races. And his other finish was a horrible 15th. Get over yourself on Harvick. He is a great driver who sometimes lets his emotions get the best of him just like any other driver. Just give it a rest for a while, would you? You make yourself sound like a complete idiot on here! 15. Dodge posted: 06.19.2011 - 9:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I expect the 18 to be dealt with more severely as after Pocono the team got penalized and the crew chief got a probation if I recall. So there definately warrants a suspension, maybe 4 weeks at least. The other 2 crew chiefs, unless I missed it, are not on probation so maybe a big fine and probation until New Years Eve, which is normal in most cases it seems. 16. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 10:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey DSFF you still think I'm cool" You were my favorite wrestler when I was a kid. I don't watch original wrestling programming anymore, but sometimes I go to YouTube and watch some of your old matches (all 1 minute and 45 seconds of them) and smile. Brad, if you disagree, just say "I disagree and here is why....". No need for the childhood insults. This is a "discussion" board. The goal is for us to "discuss" our viewpoints. In my view, Kevin and Denny stupidly giftwrapped JJ the championship. They were both much faster than the 48 after NASCAR went to the spoiler. The third best team in 2010 won the championship because the two best teams got in a pointless pissing match, and lost valuable points at Dover due to missed practice time, resulting in each finishing worse than they did in the Spring. Now if you disagree, tell me why and we can discuss it like adults if you are willing to act like an adult. "They both ran amazing during the chase." Not as good as they could have. Denny even admitted they ran really conservative during the first 5 races and gave up spots on the race track. They were racing not to lose instead of racing to win. They could have buried the 48 earlier and the Phoenix Mike Ford fuel gaffe wouldn't have been such a big deal. The 29 also raced not to lose, but in all fairness that is what they have done ever since Harvick took over. In order for that approach to win a championship in this era, they will have to rely on all the other fast cars having at least 3 races of bad luck in the final 10. "He is a great driver who sometimes lets his emotions get the best of him just like any other driver." First of all, calling him a "great" driver really lowers the bar for greatness. 17 wins in 10 and 1/2 seasons. Not bad, better than most, but not "great". Just look at the drivers that have entered the sport after him and passed him in wins. His BFF Kyle entered 4 years after Harv and is ahead of him in wins. Carl (another good friend of his) entered around the same time as Kyle and is ahead of him in wins. Biffle (somebody else Kevin has clashed with) entered two years after Kevin and had him passed in wins until this year, now Harv is one ahead with his 3 wins this year to zero for Greg. Denny (another rival of Harvick, starting to notice a pattern?) entered 5 years after Harv and, like Biff, passed him for wins until this year's current goose egg. And of course there is Driver 48 who entered a year after Kevin and...... As far as letting his emotions get the better of him like any other driver, he takes it way overboard. For 10 solid years now he has been involved in controversy after controversy after controversy. Beginning in 2001 when he earned the nicknames "The Instigator" and "The Imitator" for constantly getting side tracked in fueds in Dale's car, famously culminating with Bobby Hamilton accurately saying Kevin "isn't a scab on Earnhardt's butt". Then in 2002 he managed to get himself suspended by race 8, in 2003 he tried to start a pit road riot with Rudd who would have beaten the ever living shit out of Kevin if he could have got his hands on him, in 2004 he clashed with defending champ Kenseth, then with Kasey Kahne who will destroy Kevin in the results column once he joins HMS, in 2005 it was JJ before the season even started, Nemechek in another exhibition race, then Biffle in a Busch race at Bristol, followed by his own team the following night. In 2006 he got the ultimate face melter from Kurt Busch at Bristol after finishing 2nd to him after two days worth of below the belt trash talk, in 2007 it was Smoke at the Brickyard then JPM at Watkins Glen, in 2008 it was Smoke again, in 2009 it was his own team (which he had to come crawling back to the next year after Shell bailed on him), in 2010 he derailed his best shot at a championship at Dover, never catching up afterwards, and this year, with him in the driver's seat with all his wins, he is only focused on Kyle Busch instead of dethroning "Five Time". It is like his teammate Jeff Burton said after Martinsville last year after, imagine this, he had a clash with Harvick: Until he realizes the world isn't after him and he quits looking for trouble, he will never accomplish what he is capable of. Quoted for the truth. 17. Brad posted: 06.19.2011 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with a few things that you say. He does get into it with other drivers more than most drivers do. But if you're a Dale Sr fan, how can you not like Happy? I grew up watching Earnhardt race and he was my favorite and I dont see where Kevin is that much different than Earnhardt except that Earnhardt had a little more talent to back up his cockyness. I just read so often about how much you bash Harvick and I'm just trying to understand it... 18. Spen posted: 06.19.2011 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Biffmiester is going to break through today. 19. Anonymous85 posted: 06.19.2011 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF sorry to disappoint you but that wasnt the ultimate warrior it was me impersonating him on this board. 20. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You mean the Ultimate Warrior himself didn't actually come here to say hey to me? I'm heartbroken. You made me cry. Sorry Brad, I just never have cared for Harv. I have my reasons. 21. Brad posted: 06.19.2011 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok... Easy enough. I respect your opinion but I think Harvick has just as much talent as anybody in the garage except for maybe Gordon and Stewart 22. Brad posted: 06.19.2011 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although if you dont mind, I'd like to hear your reasons 23. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Harvick has the talent. I have just always been put off by his personality. Just a personal deal. 24. Denny Hamlin posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now DSFF I have put you in your place you will bow before me 25. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race is like a vacuum: it sucks. Second year in a row Michigan1 is decided by a caution. 26. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon struggles to crack the top 10 all day,make's it into the top 7,caution,four tires,17th place finish. 27. the undertaker posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this is the year where Jimmie Johnson's title reign will Rest In Peace 28. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. June got mad. I didn't think he was capable. Maybe he's getting that fire back. Mixed bag from TNT. I think they do a good job of covering the field objectively, but it seemed to be a disjointed broadcast. Way too many commercials and at times there was an awkward silence while they tried to figure out what to say. Kinda disappointed by them this year. 29. Eric posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this race might have played factor if Carl Edwards really is looking at going to Gibbs. This race shows Gibbs really has a good intermediate track program. I still don't if it means Hamlin has completely overcome his runner up in points slump. Denny Hamlin is now tied with Curtis Turner, Marvin Panch, Kevin Harvick with 17 career wins. 30. BillWilliamson posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now if you disagree, tell me why and we can discuss it like adults if you are willing to act like an adult." I disagree, because almost everything you say is filtered through your ridiculous bullshit assumptions about driver personalities. Everyone has a mental disorder to you. It's never accidents that take out a driver, it's because they can't handle pressure. It's never someone just got beat, it's all mind games that puts one driver above another. Apparently you know every driver personally, you know how they think, how they feel, and how their mental state affects their driving. There is absolutely nothing factual that can actually support your opinions about these things, they are all assumptions, but you use it build 99% of your arguments about every driver. And then you use these assumptions as facts. That's why I disagree, and that's why I think you are the biggest hack on this board. You think your opinion holds more weight than everyone else's because you're arrogant, and you always think you're right because you've been watching racing a long time and know more than everyone else. You always think you know exactly how something would have turned out, if a driver was thinking more clearly. You always think you know how many wins a driver should have, if they could have just driven to their potential. You always think you know exactly how every race would finish, if a driver just knew how to use their equipment correctly. And despite the FACT that these things are always based on assumption and opinion, you declare them and hold to them as if they are unassailable truths. And to top it off, you are the absolute most stubborn person if anyone dares question these things. Nope, they are facts to you. You're the expert on how Cup cars drive and the subtle difference between every team's equipment, you're the amazing mind-reading wizard that knows a drivers innermost feelings, you're the driver psychologist who knows exactly how every driver thinks and feels and how that affects their racing. HEY EVERYONE LISTEN TO ME I'M DALESRFANFOREVER, I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT NASCAR, THE CARS, AND EVERY SINGLE DRIVER. That's why I, and many many others disagree with you, about pretty much everything. 31. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #27 who cares? it's race 15 of 36! I think the championship should be voted on by the drivers and decided by a powerball. 32. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Better yet the title should go to the driver that finishes in 7th place the most during the season, and call the championship "The Dream of seven". 33. 18fan posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biffle must be mad after having a great car and finishing 15th. At least nobody really jumped out to a huge lead like last year and there was no real dominant car. Carl Edwards made a good point about the downforce issue as once a car got back in traffic it was junk. 34. Eric posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There shouldn't be any championship talk yet because the chase hasn't started. The 48 is known to better during the chase than the regular season. This time of year is usually when the 48 team isn't at their best. 35. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is Hamlin's 9th since 2010,making him the winningest since. Winningest drivers after each season of Nascar Cup racing. 1949-1970 Richard petty 1971-1975 Darrell Waltrip 1971-1998 Jeff Gordon 1999-2009 Jimmie Johnson 2010 Denny Hamlin 2011 Kevin Harvick(so far) Jeff Gordon is the winngest driver after 28 individual seasons giving him 6 more than the King. 36. 00andJoe posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Landon Cassill gets a career-best finish of 12th. 37. JP88 posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #35...your stats are just a tad wrong...lmfao Great job by Landon Cassill finishing 12th...Jr. was pissed, good finish, kinda boring, quick race. 38. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 12 Greatest Cup series Drivers 1949-Present 1. Jeff Gordon 2. David Pearson 3. Richard Petty 4. Dale Earnhardt 5. Jimmie Johnson 6. Curtis Tuner 7. Bobby Allison 8. Tim Flock 9. Darrell Waltrip 10. Herb Thomas 11. Cale Yarborough 12. Tony Stewart I think the world of Jimmie Johnson, but I get no better satisfaction than seeing him fail. 39. Red posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards is exactly right: we need cars with less downforce, because the aero-push is getting ridiculous this year. The first 80% of the race means nothing, especially with NASCAR's charity rules, and it all comes down to who has track position after the final pit stop. Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but why can't NASCAR create a template that replicates the cars of the late 80's/early 90's? Back in the days of the Lumina and Thunderbird we didn't have the issues with aero-dependency and the excessive emphasis on track position. Random question: Why do most drivers insist on wearing sunglasses in their post-race interviews? Even when it's cloudy (like this race), they still wear their shades. It just seems kind of, umm, rude. 40. Anonymous85 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) at post 39 I agree we need cars that are less aero-dependent with less downforce, and a tire combination that will produce better racing (similar to the style of what you suggested with the lumina and thunderbird or the style of the cars of the mid 70's to early to mid 80's) because most of the races run on the big tracks (aside from daytona and talladega which are restrictor plate races) are just atrocious 41. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red: Force of habit. DW said that they now sit in these little cars and just whine: "Aero push! Aero push!" Don't remember which one, but it was a documentary. 42. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Aside from not winning, it was a great day for Roush's three competitve drivers, as they combined to lead 115 laps of the 200, while Joe Gibbs' two competitve cars led 67 of the other 85, as cars from these two teams finished in four of the top 5 spots, with Paul Menard completing the top five. (David Ragan is not what I call competitve, especially compared to his teammates, while Joey Logano is still not being given a fair shot in the #20 car.) To be fair to Ragan, his car may have been damaged in a pit road incident with Dale Earnhardt, Jr., but when your teammates finish second and fifth, and the other leads the most laps, and your not even competitve with them, and your job may already be on the line, that's not what I call performing with urgency. and to make matters worse, Trevor Bayne finishes four spots ahead of him, passing both Logano and Jeff Gordon on the last turn, and Landon Cassill finishes eight spots ahead of him. If he continues to have these kinds of runs, Ragan may not last the season. On the other hand, today was a complete disaster for Hendrick Motorsports. dale earnhardt, Jr. crashed, Jimmie Johnson spun out by himself (is it me, or is this happening more often these days), and none of the Hendrick cars were competitve with the leaders all weekend. Next week at Sonoma has to be better. After all, it can't get any worse for HMS. While Denny Hamlin was celebrating in victory lane today (Sunday), expect to celebration to be short-lived as a result of the oil pan controversy, as I expect all three of Gibbs' teams to be heavily penalized, because unlike what happened to Kyle Busch's car last week, the overweight oil pans was an obvious attempt to cheat, something that NASCAR doesn't take lightly. In other words, Tony Stewart, who dropped one point out of the top 10 behind Hamlin, will probably be back in by Tuesday evening. The penalty to Hamlin may even be big enough to possibly keep him out of the Chase, although the win provision may help him. 43. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red (#39), if you have cars with less downforce, the aero-push problem, which debuted in the 1995 Brickyard 400, is only going to get worse, not better. Remember 1998, when NASCAR took away downforce? That resulted in less competitve racing, not more. Why do you think NASCAR reversed itself in that season's finale at Atlanta by giving the teams more downforce? The 1998 season finale, when it wasn't being stopped by relentless rain, was actually one of the best races that season. 44. Rusty posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race is a prime example of why I don't care for Addington as a CC for Kurt. They started off strong but Steve just can't adjust cars, they got looser with every stop and took a top 5 run and turned it into a top 15 run and they were lucky to get that. 45. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the 2nd day in a row Kyle Busch edges Paul Menard for 3rd place. 46. potatosalad48 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Andy Lally made a bit of a gaffe by running into Juan Montoya when Montoya ran out of fuel. Not enough to win the Alex Kennedy Award, but he must feel silly right now. 47. Eric posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @35. JG24FanForever, Your facts are wrong about when a driver first started cup racing Nascar and when those drivers won races. No driver has lead Nascar in wins for 28 straight seasons. You only could create a timeframe or a timeline when a driver dominates a racing series. Jeff Gordon didn't starting in cup in 1971, he was born in that year. Jeff's first cup race in Nascar was in 1992 and he won rookie of the year in 1993. Richard Petty was 12 years old in 1949 and wasn't racing in Nascar yet. His first cup was race in 1958. His first win was in 1960. Darrell Waltrip didn't start racing in cup before 1972 and didn't win a single race before 1975. Jimmie Johnson did not get his first cup start before 2001 with 2002 being his rookie season. Jimmie lead drivers in wins from 2002 to now though. Before Jimmie Johnson came along, Jeff Gordon had the most wins of all drivers from 1995 to 2001 from that timeline. Based on my timeline, here is the 1949 to 1959 - Lee Petty(through Lee's final Championship) 1960 to 1975 Richard Petty (through Richard's 6th cup championship) 1976 to 1978 - Cale Yarborough (Cale's period of winning 3 championships) 1979 to 1984 - Darrell Waltrip 1985 to 1994 - Dale Earnhardt Sr. 1995 to 2001 - Jeff Gordon 2002 to present - Jimmie Johnson. I had Richard in 1960 because that was the year he started winning races to the 1975 as the final year he led the cup series in wins. The 2nd reason I had Richard in 1960 was because he led Nascar drivers in wins from 1960 to 1963. I had DW from 1979 to 1984 because Darrell Waltrip led or tied another driver in cup wins in those seasons except for 1980. While DW won his 3rd championship in 1985, he was not even close to winning the most races on the cup series and I put 1985 in his timelime as a result Bill Elliott won the most races in 1985 with Dale Sr. being 2nd in wins for cup racing. It made perfect sense to put Dale starting in 1985 as a result since 1986 was his 2nd career championship besides 1986 being his first year in peak years (1986 to 1994. Jeff's peak started in 1995 and ended after his 4th cup championship. 48. IglooRacer posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always thought DSFF liked harvick? I thought this race was good, seeing biff, Kyle and kenseth battle for lead mid race was awesome to watch. I thought kenseth had something for hamlin but to me he didn't press the issue like I thought he should (going for the win you gotta do what you gotta do) Eric- we try to gauge to see who has the best chance at beating johnson ( or at least I do) so far looks like Edwards, Harvick ( needs to qualify better) and Kyle busch (don't get caught up like he does every other chase) Lol Red, charity rules= debris caution? 49. #44 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You mean Montoya, running out then stopping in the middle of the track? i would say 100% fault lies with Juan. 50. IglooRacer posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Erics post is dead on, you can only tell who is the best driver from each different era there is NO greatest driver ever. You can't compare Richard petty to Jeff Gordon. Has Jeff Gordon ever had to race 50-60 races at cup level? No. Did Richard petty ever have to compete against 43 cars and where anyone in the field has a legit shot at winning a race? No 51. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever (#38), I disagree with your rankings of the top dozen drivers of all-time, though they are all in my top 20, except Curtis Turner. Below are my rankings: 1. Richard Petty 2. Bobby Allison 3. Jeff Gordon (could soon move ahead of Allison) 4. Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 5. Cale Yarborough 6. Darrell Waltrip 7. David Pearson 8. Junior Johnson 9. Herb Thomas 10. Buck Baker 11. Tim Flock 12. Jimmie Johnson 13. Rusty Wallace 14. Mark Martin 15. Bill Elliott 16. Fireball Roberts 17. Lee Petty 18. Tony Stewart 19. Ned Jarrett 20. Bobby Isaac The rankings of some of those drivers are interchangeable, such as Junior Johnson, Thomas, Flock, and Buck Baker, as well as Wallace, Martin, and Elliott. But as of now, Richard Petty is the undisputed #1 driver of all-time. 52. Smokefan05 posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shame they are going to re-pave this track. The character will be gone and it'll be 2 mile version of Daytona. A good race with alot of long green runs made you guess who was coming and going. Glad to see Jr. channel his dad for once, it's needed. He had a top 10 car but for some reason Mark did what he did. It also looks like Hamlin has the monkey off his back. Matt almost wrecked himself trying to catch Hamlin. Robby ran 80 laps and pull it in, he'd better not do that for next race or i'll riot. A pretty good size crowd concidering the economy here in Michigan is in the crapper. 53. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #45 Eric please Richard Petty is the winningest driver since 1949 up to 1970 Darrell Waltrip has 84 since 1971, look it up. Jeff Gordon has the most wins Tied with Darrell Waltrip since 1971 look it up. what the hell are you talking about? 1949 Richard Petty 200 1950 Richard Petty 200 1951 Richard Petty 200 1952 Richard Petty 200 1953 Richard Petty 200 1954 Richard Petty 200 1955 Richard Petty 200 1956 Richard Petty 200 1957 Richard Petty 200 1958 Richard Petty 200 1959 Richard Petty 200 1960 Richard Petty 200 1961 Richard Petty 197 1962 Richard Petty 195 1963 Richard Petty 187 1964 Richard Petty 173 1965 Richard Petty 164 1966 Richard Petty 160 1967 Richard Petty 152 1968 Richard Petty 125 1969 Richard Petty 115 1970 Richard Petty 99 1971 Jeff Gordon/Darrell Waltrip 84 1972 Jeff Gordon/Darrell Waltrip 84 1973 Jeff Gordon/Darrell Waltrip 84 1974 Jeff Gordon/Darrell Waltrip 84 1975 Jeff Gordon/Darrell Waltrip 84 1976 Jeff Gordon 84 1977 Jeff Gordon 84 1978 Jeff Gordon 84 1979 Jeff Gordon 84 1980 Jeff Gordon 84 1981 Jeff Gordon 84 1982 Jeff Gordon 84 1983 Jeff Gordon 84 1984 Jeff Gordon 84 1985 Jeff Gordon 84 1986 Jeff Gordon 84 1987 Jeff Gordon 84 1988 Jeff Gordon 84 1989 Jeff Gordon 84 1990 Jeff Gordon 84 1991 Jeff Gordon 84 1992 Jeff Gordon 84 1993 Jeff Gordon 84 1994 Jeff Gordon 84 1995 Jeff Gordon 82 1996 Jeff Gordon 75 1997 Jeff Gordon 65 1998 Jeff Gordon 55 1999 Jimmie Johnson 54 2000 Jimmie Johnson 54 2001 Jimmie Johnson 54 2002 Jimmie Johnson 54 2003 Jimmie Johnson 51 2004 Jimmie Johnson 48 2005 Jimmie Johnson 40 2006 Jimmie Johnson 36 2007 Jimmie Johnson 31 2008 Jimmie Johnson 21 2009 Jimmie Johnson 14 2010 Denny Hamlin 9 2011 Kevin Harvick 3(so far) are you telling that the most wins since 1949 isn't 200? or the most since 1971 isn't Gordon and Waltrip's 84? 54. JJ6InARow posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even as a Johnson fan I never understood DaleSrFan's obsession with the mental stability of drivers. It just seems like such a dumb thing to base an argument on. But whatever, I guess he's got to find some reason to hate drivers, so he can hold whatever opinion he wants to. 55. JJ6InARow posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "what the hell are you talking about? 1949 Richard Petty 200 1950 Richard Petty 200 1951 Richard Petty 200 1952 Richard Petty 200 1953 Richard Petty 200 1954 Richard Petty 200 1955 Richard Petty 200 1956 Richard Petty 200 1957 Richard Petty 200 1958 Richard Petty 200 1959 Richard Petty 200 1960 Richard Petty 200 1961 Richard Petty 197 1962 Richard Petty 195 1963 Richard Petty 187 1964 Richard Petty 173 1965 Richard Petty 164 1966 Richard Petty 160 1967 Richard Petty 152 . . . 2001 Jimmie Johnson 54 2002 Jimmie Johnson 54 2003 Jimmie Johnson 51 2004 Jimmie Johnson 48 2005 Jimmie Johnson 40 2006 Jimmie Johnson 36 2007 Jimmie Johnson 31 2008 Jimmie Johnson 21 2009 Jimmie Johnson 14 2010 Denny Hamlin 9 2011 Kevin Harvick 3(so far)" Sorry for copying so much of this.... does anyone know what the heck this mass of numbers means? Why does Jimmie Johnson has a 14 next to his name in 2009, but a 54 next to his name in 2001? Same with Gordon and Petty, they have low numbers in later years, and then their win total in their early years. What the fudge? 56. Red posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #43 cjs3872 You're right that less downforce creates worse racing. I used very poor wording in my post. What I meant is that we need less downforce created by aerodynamics and more downforce created by mechanical grip and tires. #48 Igloo Charity rules = The combination of debris cautions, the lucky dog, and the wave-around, which artificially keep 25-30 cars on the lead lap. Then, at the end of the race, these slower cars can steal good finishes by gaining track position through tire/fuel strategy. Remember Joey Logano's 2009 Loudon win? That's what I'm talking about. He was so slow that he got lapped twice on the track, but NASCAR's charity rules gave him both laps back and allowed him to steal the win when it rained. 57. irony posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why do people think it's rude to wear sunglasses in an interview? Never understood that. Not much to say about this race. Good run for Cassill. MM flat ran Jr into the wall. Glad Jr was pissed. Harvick made a rare mistake and hit the wall. Michigan races need to be a little longer. Kasey Kahne's yellow and purple #4 makes me think of Brett Favre at the Vikings. 58. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan05, while I agree that repaving a track can temporarily take away its character, they have to be repaved after a cartain amount of time to avoid what happened in last year's Daytona 500 from happening again, escpecially on a track where the racing groove is the entire width of the track. The only thing I worry about is whether they have to use restrictor plates for a short time there because otherwise, you might see a 200 MPH lap in qualifying. After all, the cars were running in excess of 205 on the frontstretch and over 200 on the backstretch. When the track is repaved, those speeds might go up to 215 on the frontstretch and up to 210 on the backstretch. But in about three to five years after repaving, the racing groove and character of the track will be pretty much back to what it is today. Also, Dale Earnhardt, Jr. was involved, not only in the late-race incident which resulted in his crash, but also that pit-road incident with David Ragan early in the race, which may have ruined Ragan's day, and may lead to a quicker departure for Ragan from Roush Racing if he isn't careful with drivers from smaller teams like Phoenix Racing (Landon Cassill, 12th today) and the Wood Brothers (Trevor Bayne, 16th today) performing better than him. 59. Dodge posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robby ran 80 laps and pull it in, he'd better not do that for next race or i'll riot. I don't understand it. I read on JAYSKI that Robby was going to run full distance but he obviously didn't. The car wasn't damaged severely from when he touched the wall. Unless there were damage in the suspension. As for next week, Robby WILL NOT park in the race as it'll be a race he actually has a chance to win, being on a road course. 60. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I personally don't like the "wave around", but I agree with what it is designed for, and that is to make sure the leader is in front on every restart. What they should do is line up the cars that don't pit on the caution period in which the leaders don't pit, which puts those lapped cars in front of the leader, behind the lead lap cars, but on the same lap they were on when the caution came out. I personally don't mind the free pass rule, which was adopted when racing back to the caution was stopped in 2003 after Dale Jarrett's stopped car was nearly run into by several cars. As for the suspicious debris cautions, that's been going on for many years. Back in 1985, NASCAR President Bill France, Jr. was reported to have told one of the Elliott brothers (probably Ernie) that "you may win our races, but you will not stink up our shows", basically telling him that neither they or anyone else would be permitted to lap the entire field at will, and one of the ways that NASCAR can control that is to throw phantom cautions for debris that just isn't there, specifically to tighten up the field, though they could never admit that. 61. irony posted: 06.19.2011 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What they should do is line up the cars that don't pit on the caution period in which the leaders don't pit, which puts those lapped cars in front of the leader, behind the lead lap cars, but on the same lap they were on when the caution came out." That wouldn't make sense. They're in front of the leader so they're on the lead lap. What NASCAR did before made no sense either, since the pace car isn't being scored. The wave around rule is something that's only new in NASCAR. 62. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No it wouldn't make any sense, but when those cars are in front of the leader and are waved around, they make up one lap, but not necesarily get back on the lead lap. The wave around rule is new in NASCAR, but actually was an IndyCar idea from 2000. That's where it actually started and NASCAR was the last major American racing series to adopt that idea. 63. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Impressive stat of the day: Jimmie Johnson's first race without a Top 15 lap since the Bristol Night race of 2008. 64. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even more Impressive, this was Gordon's 116th consecutive race with a Top 14 lap. 65. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was Gordon's 228th consecutive race with a high position of 15th or better,and it was also the 4th race(since loop data was introduced in 2005)Jimmie Johnson failed to cut a Top 15 lap. 66. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.19.2011 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can Denny actually rebound from a crappy start and contend for the title this year? I personally don't think so, unless they have been doing a lot of homework to prepare for the Chase. Landon Cassill records his best Sprint Cup finish, a 12th. 67. BON GORDON posted: 06.19.2011 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well today was a reality check for us Gordon fans. We've been far to spoiled the last couple weeks. God forbid he has three consecutive top tens. I hate this year dispite the two wins. What an stupid move to take four tires with less than six to go. TRACK POSITION IS ALWAYS KEY WITH LESS THAN TEN TO GO!!!!!!!! 68. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if NASCAR will allow this win by Denny to count towards the cha$e standings. In 2008 Carl won a race (I'm pretty sure it was Vegas, but it may have been Cali) after being caught with the lid off his oil tank, and NASCAR wouldn't let him use those bonus points in the cha$e. Will they do the same to Denny? Also this opens up a whole new can of worms. Will they allow it to count for his cha$e wild card if he finishes out of the Top 10 (which I highly doubt, but a decision about it still has to be made)? Speaking of Carl, is anyone else starting to get the feeling that Carl just might leave Roush? If I had to put money on it right now, I'd say he re-signs, but I am starting to get a hunch that he just might leave. I have a feeling Home Depot may throw some serious cash his way since he is one of the few drivers right now that can run wheel to wheel with JJ and the Lowe's car week in and week out. My crystal ball says he will stay with Roush, but it is starting to get cloudy. 69. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I disagree, because almost everything you say is filtered through your ridiculous bullshit assumptions about driver personalities." I don't think these assumptions are bullshit, I give reasons as to why I feel their personality is good or bad. You'll have to be more specific. " Everyone has a mental disorder to you. It's never accidents that take out a driver, it's because they can't handle pressure. It's never someone just got beat, it's all mind games that puts one driver above another." I don't think like that. Again, you will have to bring up a specific example because if somebody is caught in the wrong place, I don't say it was because they couldn't handle the pressure. "Apparently you know every driver personally, you know how they think, how they feel, and how their mental state affects their driving." I think I can make a pretty logical conclusion most of the time. A driver thinks it is OK to hook somebody into the wall under caution, drives 128 mph on a residential road, then finally pushes one driver over the edge to the point of pummeling him after a race ALL WITHIN ONE MONTH. I think I can safely proclaim that person "mentally unstable" and predict that when the pressure is truly on in the last 10 races, they will crumble. "You think your opinion holds more weight than everyone else's because you're arrogant, and you always think you're right because you've been watching racing a long time and know more than everyone else." I don't think that. I try to encourage discussion about these topics. Hence my phrase that you quoted in your own post: "Now if you disagree, tell me why and we can discuss it like adults if you are willing to act like an adult." Does that sound like somebody who thinks they are always right? Sounds like somebody that wants to discuss things, which by the way I encourage you to do. "You always think you know exactly how something would have turned out, if a driver was thinking more clearly. You always think you know how many wins a driver should have, if they could have just driven to their potential. You always think you know exactly how every race would finish, if a driver just knew how to use their equipment correctly. And despite the FACT that these things are always based on assumption and opinion, you declare them and hold to them as if they are unassailable truths." I compare those situations to previous situations in which somebody thought clearly. I don't just pull these out of left field. I use similar circumstances, compare the results, then try to overlay them and predict how it most likely would have happened. This happens in every sport. Almost everybody who is a fan of the NBA is trying to determine how the most recent Finals would have been different had LeBron been aggressive in getting to the rim like he usually does and used his unworldy athletic talent instead of playing hot potato and standing off to the side. It is just how sports work. "HEY EVERYONE LISTEN TO ME I'M DALESRFANFOREVER, I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT NASCAR, THE CARS, AND EVERY SINGLE DRIVER." Wow. I have really made an impact on you. All I can say is bring up some examples and I'll explain where I am coming from. 70. 18fan posted: 06.19.2011 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne spent over a minute in the pits when he ran out of fuel and it seemingly took forever for the Red Bull car to refire. Joey Logano continues to be outperformed by his teammates by a lot. Now to be fair Denny ran outside the top 10 most of the day, but Kyle's average running position was 4th, Denny's was 10th, and Joey's was 21st. JGR has 3 wins, 12 top 5s, 17 top 10s, and has led 1226 laps. Joey has 1 top 5(and that was a total fluke like his win in 2009 as he got 2 free passes and ran like crap the whole race), 2 top 10s, and has led 2 laps. Kyle is third in points, Denny is 9th, and Joey is 23rd. He has been a major disappointment his entire Cup career. In comparison to Logano, Kyle Busch's third year(at roughly the same age) saw him finally gain decent consistency, Jimmie Johnson won 8 races and was 8 points away from the championship in his third year, Jeff Gordon won the championship and beat Dale Earnhardt for it in his third year, Greg Biffle had a breakout year his third year, as did Matt Kenseth. Kevin Harvick's third year was similar to Kyle's, Kurt Busch proved he could win races but did little else that year. Joey on the other hand has been a disaster this year and has not shown the signs of improvement he showed at the end of last year. 71. Anonymous posted: 06.19.2011 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I wonder if NASCAR will allow this win by Denny to count towards the cha$e standings. In 2008 Carl won a race (I'm pretty sure it was Vegas, but it may have been Cali) after being caught with the lid off his oil tank, and NASCAR wouldn't let him use those bonus points in the cha$e. Will they do the same to Denny? Also this opens up a whole new can of worms. Will they allow it to count for his cha$e wild card if he finishes out of the Top 10 (which I highly doubt, but a decision about it still has to be made)?" Considering the circumstances are completely different, yes, this win will count toward the Chase. Edwards' infraction was found post-race. Hamlin's was pre-race. That part had nothing to do with Hamlin winning this race, because it wasn't in his car. NASCAR has no reason to deprive Hamlin's team of these bonus points. However NASCAR penalizes the JGR teams, it won't affect this win, or the bonus points. Unless you you think NASCAR is too dumb to distinguish between a car winning a race and failing post race inspection, and a car changing out an illegal part before a race and winning fairly. And considering you're childish enough to use that stupid "cha$e" crap, I wouldn't be surprised if you WERE too dumb to see that important distinction. 72. Bronco posted: 06.19.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fewest number of laps that Denny has led in any of his Cup wins. Last year he dominated this race and made it his fifth win of the year, this year it was his first. Regardless, good to see him win again. However I don't think it means the #11 team is back to their 2010 form, I think the championship will be settled between the #48, #88 and #99 teams. The #48 team is best at turning it on in the final 10 races, the #88 is the most consistent team right now and the #99 has the most raw speed. Looking at the replay, Jr was right to be pissed at Mark, the #5 drifted up into him as if Jr wasn't even there. "Speaking of Carl, is anyone else starting to get the feeling that Carl just might leave Roush" It won't happen, he's running too good in both Cup and Nationwide for it to make sense for him. He's likely using such rumors to negotiate a fatter contract. 73. Red posted: 06.19.2011 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "the #88 is the most consistent team right now" The #88 is the most consistent team at finishing 6th-10th every week. That won't get it done in the chase, and if they have one bad finish, they don't have the raw speed to make up for it. Despite being 3rd in points, Junior has led a paltry 42 laps in 15 races, and his qualifying has been nothing short of pathetic. I think the title will be decided between Johnson, Edwards, and Kenseth. Nobody talks about the #17 as a title threat, but they've been fast this year, especially on the cookie-cutters, and Matt certainly has the poise and discipline to hold up under pressure. 74. cjs3872 posted: 06.19.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact, HMS has been horrible at qualifying as a group with all four of their cars for most of this season, not just Earnhardt, Jr. At tracks where he almost always qualifies up front, like Michigan and California, Jeff Gordon posted his worst qualifying efforts ever at those two tracks, and Jimmie Johnson and Mark Martin haven't qualified well either. The only exceptions have been the two restrictor plate tracks. 75. soupclan posted: 06.19.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) let me try and clear up what jg24 is trying to say.....his #'s take into no effect what happened in years before.....yes Richard Petty didn't win until 1960 but when you look at it as a whole 1949 to present day.....Richard has the most wins in that specific timeframe. the #'s you were questioning about getting bsmaller is because the timeframe is getting smaller. Jimmie Johnson has 54 wins since 1999 (truth) when he says that that is a specific timeframe. in a shorter timeframe 2010-2011 Denny Hamlin has the most wins (9) that is what his chart means....yes Jeff Gordon was born in 1971 but from 1971-2011 Jeff Gordon has won more sprint cup races than anybody. that is what he is trying to say. 76. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you, soupclan. 77. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #67 Bon Gordon Yeah that really sucked for Gordon to fight so hard, just to throw it away like that. 78. 00andJoe posted: 06.19.2011 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #67/77: Denny Hamlin at Martinsville last year would argue your point. 79. Bronco posted: 06.19.2011 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The #88 is the most consistent team at finishing 6th-10th every week. That won't get it done in the chase, and if they have one bad finish, they don't have the raw speed to make up for it. Despite being 3rd in points, Junior has led a paltry 42 laps in 15 races, and his qualifying has been nothing short of pathetic." The #88 team is not just consistent at finishing 6-10th, but at completing laps and staying out of trouble, which do count for something when you're competing for a championship. The fact that he has led a low amount of laps and qualifies bad each week is irrelevant given that championships are based on your finishes, not how many laps you lead or where you start. Another important factor to remember is that they have finished in the top 10 at every 1.5 mile track this season, which is significant given that half of the chase tracks are at 1.5 mile tracks. Out of those five 1.5 mile tracks in the chase, Jr already has top 10s at Texas, Charlotte and Kansas, in addition to top 10s at Phoenix, Talladega and Martinsville. Throw in the fact that he usually runs well at New Hampshire, even with Lance McGrew as crew chief, and its not too much of a stretch to say that the #88 team could be championship contenders. 80. MikeLowe posted: 06.19.2011 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think I can make a pretty logical conclusion most of the time. A driver thinks it is OK to hook somebody into the wall under caution, drives 128 mph on a residential road, then finally pushes one driver over the edge to the point of pummeling him after a race ALL WITHIN ONE MONTH. I think I can safely proclaim that person "mentally unstable" and predict that when the pressure is truly on in the last 10 races, they will crumble." Geez, there you go again. Mentally unstable.... do you ever listen to yourself? What, about any of those things, makes a person mentally unstable? All I see is an aggressive race car driver that sometimes lets their emotions or passion get the best of them, and someone that made a mistake outside of the track. You've never made a mistake? No, I'm sure you're a perfect human being. Call me "mentally unstable", but I don't see the connection between someone that gets too aggressive on the track and some kind of mental disorder. Frankly, that assumption makes me question your own mental stability. And those things are all well and good for your excuse about Kyle Busch, but you say the same stupid thing about Kevin Harvick, Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Tony Stewart, Kurt Busch, Dale Jr., and others. It's your go-to excuse for why any driver loses a race or a title, or doesn't align with the perceived career arc for every driver that you've mapped out in your head, based on a bunch of criteria that's impossible to determine. In your mind Dale Sr outperformed his equipment, but there's nothing to back that up whatsoever. He's winning tons of races, and championships, but you want to attach this "underdog" status to him to...I have no frickin' idea, I guess to make him more "heroic" or some s*** in your head. Dale Sr can't just be a good driver for a good team, no, he won DESPITE the crappy cars and team built around him. You spend all this time dwelling on a fantasy world that doesn't exist, ranking drivers according to things that never happened, and can't be proven. And "Mentally unstable".... jesus christ, just repeating out loud to myself it sounds dumber and dumber. And yet this becomes the basis of so many arguments of yours. The other dude was right, you like to play Mr. Driver Psychologist like you're some kind of expert on how everything a driver feels affects their driving. It would absolutely kill you to admit that Denny Hamlin and Kevin Harvick ran a good chase, and that Jimmie Johnson just beat them because he was just a tiny bit better. You love to play with the knowledge that others will forget little details over time, like Hamlin's crew chief miscalculating fuel mileage at Phoenix, and that costing him the championship more than anything he did as a driver. No, acknowledging things like that would go against your script of Hamlin being a choker. He couldn't handle the pressure. Biggest choke in Cup history (I am almost positive you made a statement saying exactly that). Oh my god he lost a lead of basically just a few positions on track to one of the best drivers of all time-CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKE! And you believe all this despite your staunch hatred of the Chase itself as a formula to determine the champion (as continually evidenced by the stupid cha$e thing that you must think is unbelievably clever- it's not, it makes you like some whiny emo teenager trying to rail against "the man"). Denny Hamlin and Kevin Harvick ran very solid chases last year. Over time we'll probably look back at their performances and see that it would probably be good enough to win the championship 7 times out of 10. Jimmie Johnson is just good. But you never really even want to admit that, it's always his cheating crew chief, his superior equipment, his luck, anything but Jimmie just being one of the top 5 drivers in NASCAR history. And I know why you don't want to admit that, because that would ruin your script of Hamlin and Harvick being chokers. They couldn't just have been beaten by the best! That's too simple an explanation. They must be mentally unstable! I know, I'm a doctor. Carl Edwards lost in 08 because he's mentally unstable. In fact, I bet he's crazy enough to murder someone! I know, I'm a doctor, and criminologist. Kyle Busch will never win a championship, he's too mentally unstable! I know, I'm a doctor, and a psychic. I know the results of the championship for the next 20 years, and his name isn't on it. As we all know, the way you are when you're 19 to 26, that's the way you are for your entire adult life. I know, I'm psychologist. Tony Stewart would have 5 championships if he wasn't the way he is as a person! I know, because-aw screw it, I'm tired of this crap. Maybe some day the rest of the people on this board will realize how much of a arrogant windbag you are, and stop listening to your inane comments about every driver and every race. But one can only hope for that kind of sanity. 81. JG24FanForever posted: 06.19.2011 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've gotten carried away with the loop data,but here are the longest Top 15 high position in a race streaks by each driver I studied for(2005-present of course since that's when loop data was invented). 1. Jeff Gordon 227 2. Kyle Busch 116 3. Matt Kenseth 111 4. Jimmie Johnson 105 5. Denny Hamlin 98 Jimmie Johnson 98 7. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 92 8. Carl Edwards 81 9. Tony Stewart 76 10. Kyle Busch 73 11. Tony Stewart 72 12. Mark Martin 71 other: Kevin Harvick had a best streak of 38 consecutive races. I know this might be boring, but it does illustrate a level of consistency of sorts. 82. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 12:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) MikeLowe, a major part of the reason for Dale, Sr.'s success in his prime WAS the team that was built around him. His pit crew was the best of its time, and was so good that it was called "The Flying Aces". Also his crew chief during his greatest years, Kirk Shelmerdine, is one of the most underrated crew chiefs in history, and might end up in the Hall of Fame someday. In fact, with the exception of 1993, Earnhardt and RCR was never the same after Shelmerdine left in 1992. Sure, Andy Petree had great success with Earnhardt from 1993-'95, winning 15 races, two championships and finishing second the other year, but even then the team wasn't as great as it was when Shelmerdine was calling the shots. 83. Anonymous85 posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey I am going to put up a list of drivers who haven't won in a while and how long it has been since they last won Dale Earnhardt Jr 108 Races Since Last Win Michigan June 2008 Jeff Burton 92 Races Since Last Win Charlotte October 2008 Kasey Khane 62 Races Since Last Win Atlanta September 2009 Mark Martin 60 Races Since Last Win New Hampshire September 2009 Ryan Newman 54 Races Since Last Win Phoenix April 2010 Kurt Busch 38 Races Since Last Win Charlotte May 2010 Danica Patrick 57 Races since first (and likely only) win Motegi April 2008 BTW I put Danica on there mainly for laughs 84. irony posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt won championships with two different teams and four different crew chiefs (Jake Elder & Doug Richert split his 1980 championship season). Saying that he only won two championships and 15 races in three years is gasping at straws. Earnhardt went out as championship runner-up with Ken Hamlin as crew chief. Is he even still in the sport? 85. Frank posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, 3rd time this year we've had a race without a fake caution (thanks to Mark & Juan!) I've enjoyed race for the lead between 16,17,18 and then 11,17,99 and was surprised no one had been able to build gap more that couple seconds. Of course 11 shouldn't be penalized because violation was found at PRE-race inspection (#99 was caught after Vegas'08), like HMS brought cheat-cars to Sonoma in 2007. As far as I know, in these cases car confiscated and money penalty issuing. Congrats to Bayne and especially Cassil. Very impressive for Landon. Haven't read quotes yet but heard that #48 had broken sway-bar (probably caused that spin) - so no chances to come back. And of course for them this race means only that Johnson never won at Michigan. But they have 2nd race. 86. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 8:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24Fan, I actually understand those stats. That is an interesting and unique way to look at it. 87. IglooRacer posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jr needs wins to get the bonus points, then he needs one race during the chase ( at least one) where he gets max points to keep up with Johnson. The last 10 tracks are all Johnsons best, 19 wins in the chase races since 2004. That's why he is five time. Sadly. 88. IglooRacer posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) First time since 2008 that johnson only had one win through the first 15 races. I can't remember but did they use wins for bonus points in the chase on 2008 or did they do the old seeding format where it was dependent on points position? 89. JG24FanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #86 DaleSrFanForever Cool. can you beleieve Busch has a longer Top 15 high than Johnson? I didn't think it was possible,and Kyle Busch also has the longest Top 10(115)and Top 5 streaks(50)i've found. 90. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Irony (#84), I said that he (Dale Earnhardt, Sr.) won two championships and 15 races in the three years that Andy Petree was his crew chief from 1993-'95, not for his entire career. Please, if you are going to correct or dispute my facts, please read the entire post before doing so. And yes, he did finish a distant second in points in 2000, winning twice. But in his two wins that season, one came because his teammate blew up in front of him with about 18 laps left in a race he had dominated, and the other was the ultimate Hail Mary drive to victory. Dale did it the same way he had done it the last decade of his career, and that was with consistent finishes, not flashy driving like had done the first half of his career. Also, Frank (#85), the HMS pre-race infractions in 2007 actually resulted in a 100-point penalty and a six-week suspension for both Chad Knaus and Steve Letarte. I also remember Rusty Wallace being penalized points for a pre-race inspection violation at Talladega several year before that. I do expect harsh punishment for all three of Gibbs' cars, because what they did was an obvious attempt to cheat. I also congratulate Cassill and Bayne on their finishes of 12th and 16th respectively. And, as I mentioned in post #42, something has to be done with Roush's former flagship car (#6), because the driver (David Ragan) is not, nor has ever been constiently competitve with the other Roush cars, though the lack of performance at Michigan was not entirely his fault, being outrun by the #51 Phoenix Racing car, and especially the #21 Wood Brothers car, which is built by Roush and has pretty much a skeleton pit crew, compared to the other teams (the same can be said of the #51 team), can not bode well for Ragan's future with the organization, especially with Ricky Stenhouse performing in the NNS the way he has, he is the front runner to replace Ragan in that car whenever Roush makes that long overdue move to cut bait with Ragan. 91. #17MK#17 posted: 06.20.2011 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #48 "I thought this race was good, seeing biff, Kyle and kenseth battle for lead mid race was awesome to watch. I thought kenseth had something for hamlin but to me he didn't press the issue like I thought he should (going for the win you gotta do what you gotta do)" I was wondering the same thing myself yesterday - but I read this morning that when Edwards was in the lead, Kenseth has "fuel concerns". speedtv.com reported Kenseth said, ??I thought I was going to run out of gas, so I was running around half throttle, which isn??t fun because you don??t feel like you are racing,? he said. ??I was just riding around real slow because they said we were two laps short [of having enough fuel to finish], and I didn??t think I would save that, but I sure as heck wasn??t going to pit, either. I was trying to save gas, running slow and hoping for a caution.? #60 "As for the suspicious debris cautions, that's been going on for many years. Back in 1985, NASCAR President Bill France, Jr. was reported to have told one of the Elliott brothers (probably Ernie) that "you may win our races, but you will not stink up our shows", basically telling him that neither they or anyone else would be permitted to lap the entire field at will, and one of the ways that NASCAR can control that is to throw phantom cautions for debris that just isn't there, specifically to tighten up the field, though they could never admit that". I totally agree with you...it makes you feel like you're watching a rigged puppet show sometimes. 92. Biscuits in a Red Bull posted: 06.20.2011 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol @ Jimmie Johnson 93. Eric posted: 06.20.2011 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red Bull is leaving Nascar after this season. http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/cup/news/story?id=6680537 I am guessing Red Bull is leaving because of Nascar's 18-34 age demographic is declining. I am more concern about the future of Cole Whitt than Vickers. I think Vickers could find a ride in Nationwide or cup. Cole Whitt has a lot of promise, but I don't think he will get a full time ride in the truck series next year outside of sharing with another driver like Kyle Busch. Even if Cole Whitt goes to Nationwide next year, there would be a question of a quality of ride he could get full time. 94. MikeLowe posted: 06.20.2011 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "MikeLowe, a major part of the reason for Dale, Sr.'s success in his prime WAS the team that was built around him. His pit crew was the best of its time, and was so good that it was called "The Flying Aces". Also his crew chief during his greatest years, Kirk Shelmerdine, is one of the most underrated crew chiefs in history, and might end up in the Hall of Fame someday." I know that, it's DaleSrFanForever you need to explain that to. He loooooves the idea that Earnhardt was some over-achieving hero of the little guy. 95. JG24FanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #94 are you kidding? of course Earnhardt was an over-achieving hero for the little guy. 1.from 9th grade drop-out to the cover of Time 2.won Bristol in 1985 despite losing power steering 3.won a title in his 2nd season against veteran Cale Yarborough who drove the fastest and best prepared cars of that season for Junior Johnson. 4.got intentionally spun by Bill Elliott in the 1987 Winston and kept the lead. 96. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It won't happen, he's running too good in both Cup and Nationwide for it to make sense for him. He's likely using such rumors to negotiate a fatter contract." Overall I agree. I think he'll come back. He has a proven formula for success over there, and when they are on, have the ability to be better than anyone. It's just that the amount of time that is going by is making me wonder a little bit. But whether or not Carl goes there next year, I definitely think Logano is on the hot seat. Here is what JD said about Joey: "Right now, Joey is our guy. He finished so strongly last year, you figured he'd pick up and just keep going. We struggled some this year, not all his dealing. I think, Joey, for us, is still our guy.'' Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Owners usually are all about "This is definitely our guy and we plan to have him with us for a long time" when rumors come up in an effert to calm them down. To show their uncertainty is a little telling. I think it would be kinda shitty for Joey since it was JGR that moved him up way too soon and put unrealistic expectations on him. Obviously this year hasn't gone the way they expected it too, but he has had some mechanical issues and wrecks. This is pretty clearly the era of rookies not being able to make immediate impacts anyways. "can you beleieve Busch has a longer Top 15 high than Johnson? I didn't think it was possible,and Kyle Busch also has the longest Top 10(115)and Top 5 streaks(50)i've found." Kyle can wheel a racecar. He just has to work on every single other aspect of racing. 97. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for the "Wow, I have really made an impact here" Part II: "And considering you're childish enough to use that stupid "cha$e" crap, I wouldn't be surprised if you WERE too dumb to see that important distinction." "Frankly, that assumption makes me question your own mental stability." "You spend all this time dwelling on a fantasy world that doesn't exist" "(as continually evidenced by the stupid cha$e thing that you must think is unbelievably clever- it's not, it makes you like some whiny emo teenager trying to rail against "the man"). " " Maybe some day the rest of the people on this board will realize how much of a arrogant windbag you are, and stop listening to your inane comments about every driver and every race. But one can only hope for that kind of sanity." lol. I must be the Jimmie Johnson of this board. I have created quite a stir without really trying to. I haven't seen this many grade school insults being thrown around since, well, grade school. BTW, if you want people to quit listening to me then you probably shouldn't type out a huge dissertation on how much I suck. That sort of thing tends to bring attention to a situation. Just saying. 98. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about that, MikeLowe. 99. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, is anyone surprised that, with so many cars on the lead lap at the end, that a few that were at the back didn't gamble to try to win the race, or get higher positions than they would have gotten, by not pitting, instead of doing what everyone else did. It seems there seems to be a lack of willingness on the part of some of the lower-echelon to try to gamble for wins or higher placings then they would normally get when the opportunity presents itself. I know fuel may have been an issue, but there just doesn't seem to be any risk-takers among the crew chiefs of today. No wonder Chad Knaus has won five consecutive championships. no one else seems to WANT to take the risks that he would take, even on race strategy. 100. 18fan posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem with Joey is we were told that he was going to come to Cup and win races and be a constant contender right away and, except for his strong finish at the end of last year, has disappointed mightily in those regards. 101. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, I just learned that one possible place that drivers such as Carl Edwards, Juan Montoya, or Clint Bowyer could have gone if they left their current teams is now off the table with the reports, apparently confirmed, that Red Bull is leaving the sport, which also means that Brian Vickers is now among those that will be searching for a ride in 2012. It's also unknown where that would leave Cole Whitt, who is #2 on my drivers to watch in the future, behind Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. 102. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now to respond to some of the criticisms after sifting through the childish insults like an archeologist trying to get 10,000 year old human remains out of a plot of dirt. "Even as a Johnson fan I never understood DaleSrFan's obsession with the mental stability of drivers. It just seems like such a dumb thing to base an argument on. But whatever, I guess he's got to find some reason to hate drivers, so he can hold whatever opinion he wants to." Mental stability is the cornerstone of any truly successful athlete. Yeah, you also have to be talented, but you can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't have the ability to remain focused and steady under pressure, you will never accomplish what you are capable of (see: James, LeBron). In NASCAR this never used to be a big deal because, without mental stability, drivers would never come close to getting a ride in Cup. But in today's generation of drivers raised by the Tom Loganos of the world, a lot of these drivers have never seen true pressure until they reach the big time. The have never been tested like drivers who had to be tested before any decent drivers would even consider them. But to my original point, you are damn right mental stability is the cornerstone of my arguments. It is the biggest determining factor in a driver's success. Yes, Jimmie Johnson is undeniably talented. But does anyone really think he is a better driver than Tony Stewart or Kyle Busch, two drivers with once in a generation talent? Yet he has rewritten the history books (copyright, ESPN). So I make no apologies for mentioning mental stability. "What, about any of those things, makes a person mentally unstable? All I see is an aggressive race car driver that sometimes lets their emotions or passion get the best of them, and someone that made a mistake outside of the track." Those things alone might not mean mental stability. Every driver has made egrerious mistakes like you mentioned. But when they pile up like that in the span of just one month, that shows me somebody who doesn't have it all together upstairs. And that "sometimes" is way too often. I know he is young, but he was racing NASCAR Truck races at just 16, and had a Busch ride specifically waiting for him the week he turned 18. He isn't new to this. If he doesn't understand the trials being a NASCAR driver will throw at you by now, then he really needs a reality check. "In your mind Dale Sr outperformed his equipment, but there's nothing to back that up whatsoever." Of course there is. In 1979 he joined second year racing team Osterlund Racing which had no sponsor and consisted mostly of young Californians who knew very little about NASCAR. That year he did what veteran and Cup winner Dave Marcis couldn't do the previous year, and what no rookie had done in the previous 5 seasons: win. The next year, a season which saw Jake Elder quit in late May leaving him to be crew chiefed by a 20 year old for the final 2/3 of the season, he did what nobody has done before or since: win the Winston Cup in his 2nd season. Towards the end of the season, people were trying to figure out what their secret was. David Ifft, the veteran and respected crew chief for Benny Parsons at the time said this: "Dale Earnhardt makes that car run. He's been driving like a wildman to make up for a lack of horsepower all year. Been going into the corners deeper and just throwing it the rest of the way around. Thing is, he's good enough to get away with it." That, to me, sounds like a guy outperforming his equipment. And his cars at RCR weren't much better as far as horsepower (except '87). The best thing that happened to them was restrictor plates. With everyone else on the same field as far as horsepower at Daytona and Dega, Dale and RCR no longer had 4 tracks and 8 races per year in which they didn't have the steam to truly compete (Daytona, Dega, Michigan, and Pocono). They only had Michigan and Pocono. Going into 1988, Dale had 2 total wins at Daytona and Dega combined. In other words, he had one more than contemporaries Ron Buchard, Phil Parsons, Bobby Hillen, and Greg Sacks. Plates were mandated and Dale went on, beginning in 1990, to win 8 Dega races and 3 Daytona races (which could have been 6 or 7 if not for his horrendous Daytona 500 luck) over the next 11 seasons. Meanwhile, he won just 2 times apiece at Pocono and Michigan in his career (once each in 1987, the only year he matched everyone else in horsepower), the two tracks where horsepower is a must. THOSE are some of the reasons I feel he outperformed his equipment. I have more to back me up if you want. "but you want to attach this "underdog" status to him to...I have no frickin' idea, I guess to make him more "heroic" or some s*** in your head. Dale Sr can't just be a good driver for a good team, no, he won DESPITE the crappy cars and team built around him." Now you are just putting words in my mouth. You have managed to put 2 and 2 together and get 46. I never said his teams were "crappy". I just pointed out that he never had horsepower like Bill Eliott had with his brother's engines from '84 to '89, like Davey Allison and Dale Jarrett had with Robert Yates from '88 to '00, like Gordon had with HMS from '93 to present. And I never said, nor do I think, this makes him "heroic". I see him for exactly what he was: a normal guy who was really good at racing cars and had a desire to dominate everything which he acted on. I just feel an emotional attachment to him because I spent Sunday afternoons from as early as I can remember until he died rooting for him, getting caught up in the fantasy of being able to compete in a racing Series and race like he did. "It would absolutely kill you to admit that Denny Hamlin and Kevin Harvick ran a good chase, and that Jimmie Johnson just beat them because he was just a tiny bit better." It wouldn't kill me to admit that, if it weren't completely untrue. JJ won 3 of the first 5 races last year with that ugly wing. They switched to the spoiler and he only won 3 more races the rest of the way. The 11 team won 8 races with the spoiler. Harvick also won 3 spoiler races, but also showed a consistency that was amazing. They were better that year, but JJ did a better job in the final 10 because the 11 and 29 made mistakes and raced too conservative. "You love to play with the knowledge that others will forget little details over time, like Hamlin's crew chief miscalculating fuel mileage at Phoenix, and that costing him the championship more than anything he did as a driver. No, acknowledging things like that would go against your script of Hamlin being a choker. He couldn't handle the pressure. Biggest choke in Cup history (I am almost positive you made a statement saying exactly that). Oh my god he lost a lead of basically just a few positions on track to one of the best drivers of all time-CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKE!" After Phoenix he was throwing a Kyle Busch-esque tantrum, throwing water bottles and punching his dash when HE STILL HAD THE POINTS LEAD WITH ONE RACE TO GO! At Homestead, he screwed up qualifying, and couldn't even make through Lap 24 before he banged up his fenders and ruined his day. If that isn't a choke, I don't know what is. And I have repeatedly trashed Mike Ford for his fuel miscalculation, his refusal to make a serious attempt to fix the fenders at Homestead despite two cautions where they were the last car on the lead lap and had nothing to lose by making another pit stop, and most importantly his dumber than shit trash talking after Texas. I have mentioned this many times. "Jimmie Johnson is just good. But you never really even want to admit that, it's always his cheating crew chief, his superior equipment, his luck, anything but Jimmie just being one of the top 5 drivers in NASCAR history." Now this is where you show just how little you know about me. How many times have I praised JJ? How many times have I mentioned that the "golden horseshoe" comment is just an excuse for drivers like Harvick to use to make themselves not look as bad for getting buried by the 48 in terms of legacy? Last race I mentioned that Chad is luckier to have JJ than vice versa. I also started a debate because I said JJ is already ahead of Gordon historically. If you are gonna trash me, at least do some research first. "Carl Edwards lost in 08 because he's mentally unstable." He lost because he caused the Big One at Dega and lost an ignition box at Charlotte. "In fact, I bet he's crazy enough to murder someone!" He tried to do that twice last year. "Tony Stewart would have 5 championships if he wasn't the way he is as a person!" If he had a better grip on his emotions he would have 5 championships. "because-aw screw it, I'm tired of this crap." You and me both. I don't know what you were trying to prove, but it didn't work. Better luck next time. 103. Scott B posted: 06.20.2011 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Entry list for Sonoma is up, a few road racing specialists. #38 Tony Ave in for Kvapil #46 Andy Pilgrim in for Yeley #81 Brian Simo in for Riggs #77 Listed as PJ Jones on the initial list, but may be withdrawn Also, #51 listed with regular driver Landon Cassill, Boris Said had been rumored. #32 has Terry Labonte, one of their usual rotation of drivers, but who happens to have a good road racing resume. 104. Cooper posted: 06.20.2011 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion, Joey was brought up way too quickly. There's no reason why an 18/19 year old should be put in a championship racecar. Expectations are way too high and doesn't allow time for development. Instead of being able to focus on getting lead lap finishes and keeping equipment clean he has been forced to run Top 15's and challenge for race wins. The development for drivers should be: --Run full Nationwide/Truck season(s) --Run part time Cup --Run full Cup season with Tier 2 team --Run Competitively with Tier 2 team --Run Cup Series with Tier 1 team NOT --Run part time Cup/Nationwide --Run Cup series with Tier 1 team Joey should have run for a Nationwide title. He had all the resources to slow down his career. Tony Stewart had a chance to drive for Hendrick and turned it down for the reasons of not wanting to ruin his "One Shot". But hindsight is twenty twenty. Also, everyweek it seems Joey is holding onto Kyle's/Denny's leg like a lonely child. In my opinion Joey needs to STOP listening to Kyle and Denny. They have way different driving styles and they seem to get Joey into more trouble. Really I see three options for Joey: --Continue running the #20 Hope Depot car into oblivion --Ask Joe to sign Carl Edwards and put Joey in a fourth JGR car. (Gamestop sponsorship?) --Go back to the Nationwide Series for a title run with Gibbs, then try to go back through the ranks. 105. Talon64 posted: 06.20.2011 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well that sucks that Red Bull's leaving. Then again, it could be the best thing to happen to Cole Whitt since RBR's history of bringing up drivers isn't that great; they gave up on Allmendinger in favor of Speed who sucked. Hopefully JGR or RCR/KHI can snatch up Whitt to run him full time in Nationwide next season. Anyways, Denny Hamlin gets his 17th career Cup win which ties him with Kevin Harvick, Marvin Panch and Curtis Turner for 44th all time, and 1st of 2011. His 17 wins since 2006 are the 3rd most behind only Kyle Busch (19) and Jimmie Johnson (36). It's Hamlin's 6th straight season with at least 1 win, the 5th longest active streak behind Kyle Busch (7), Kurt Busch (9), Jimmie Johnson (10) and Tony Stewart (12). Denny, Kyle, Jimmie and Tony are the only ones to have won a race in every full season they've competed in Cup. (Tony and Kurt have yet to win in 2011). It's Hamlin's 2nd win at Michigan, his 3rd straight top 2 finish, 5th straight top 10 and 5th straight race leading at least 1 lap. Hamlin has 3 top 5's and 5 top 10's in the last 7 races, going from 17th to 9th in points in that stretch (barring any points penalties this week). Matt Kenseth finishes 2nd for the 20th time in his career (tied with Fonty Flock and Kevin Harvick for 33rd all time), and it's his 40th career top 2 finish in 415 starts, meaning he finishes 1st or 2nd every 10 races. It's Kenseth's 11th top 5 in 24 Michigan starts, but his best finish there since he won back in 2006 (6 top 5's in last 10 starts). Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards each got their 8th top 5's of the season, tied for the series lead. It's his 2nd straight 3rd place finish and 4th of the season. It's only Kyle's 2nd top 5 and 4th top 10 in 13 Michigan starts, and 1st top 10 in the last 5 races (16.6 avg fin). Paul Menard gets his 3rd top 5 of the season; he only had 2 top 5's in his first 147 Cup starts and never more than 1 in a season. But it's his first top 10 in 8 races. It's Menard's first top 10 in 10 Michigan starts (23.0 average finish). Carl Edwards gets his series-leading 11th top 10 of the season. It's his 9th top 5 and 12th top 10 in 14 Michigan starts (6.2 average finish). But he'd only led 2 laps in the previous 4 races before leading 30 in this one. Ryan Newman has back-to-back top 10's for the first time since he had 4 straight from races 2-5 of the season. Newman's a 2 time winner at Michigan but it's his 1st top 10 in his last 14 starts there, just his 5th top 10 (first stand-alone) in 20 starts (18.9 avg fin). Tony Stewart hasn't finished better than 7th in 12 races, his longest streak of races without a top 5 since he went 13 straight in 2004 which is his career-worst. But it's Tony's 17th top 10 in 25 Michigan starts and 8th in the last 10. After his 5 race top 10 streak, Clint Bowyer only has 2 top 10's in the last 6 races. It's just his 3rd top 10 in 11 Michigan starts (career 19.3 avg fin) but they've all come in the last 5 races (12.2). Mark Martin's 433rd career top 10 now has him 13 back of Bobby Allison for 2nd all time. He's on pace for only 7 more this season, meaning he'll need to race for a competitive team in 2012 to have a chance at passing Allison. It's Mark's 30th top 10 in 51 Michigan starts, but his first in 4 races since his win back in 2009. Brian Vickers gets his 5th top 10 of the season; Vickers had 3 top 10's but 5 finishes in the 30's in the first 10 races of the season, but has posted a 14.2 average finish with 1 top 5 and 2 top 10's in the last 5 races to go from 29th to 24th in the standings. It's Vicker's 6th consecutive top 10 at Michigan, the longest active streak, and 8th in 13 starts. Kurt Busch is the first driver to win 3 consecutive poles since Jeff Gordon in 2007. Landon Cassill earned his best career finish in 12th, his first career top 20 finish in 30 starts and just his 3rd lead lap finish. Greg Biffle led a season-high 68 laps, the most in the race, and it's his 2nd straight Michigan race with 60+ laps led. But he only has finishes of 4th and 15th to show for it and hasn't won at Michigan since his back-to-back wins in 2004 and 2005. Trevor Bayne made his first Cup start since having to sit out with medical issues, and got just his 2nd top 20 finish in his 8 starts since his Daytona 500 win (but both coming in his last 3 starts). 106. Cooper posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 93. Eric posted: 06.20.11 - 12:42 pm "I am guessing Red Bull is leaving because of Nascar's 18-34 age demographic is declining." Possibly. My hypothesis is that they lost alot of their market share in the NASCAR community to AMP Energy. Hard to sell Red Bull to Dale Jr. fans. That takes the full-time competitive teams from 29 to 27 for next year. Wow. 107. Smokefan05 posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I totally agree with you...it makes you feel like you're watching a rigged puppet show sometimes." Oh there is the "Rigged" word again. For everytime i've seen a "fan" throw that word around i'd be retired by now. The only puppet show on here is fans thinking NASCAR is rigged. Moving on..... "Smokefan05, while I agree that repaving a track can temporarily take away its character, they have to be repaved after a cartain amount of time to avoid what happened in last year's Daytona 500 from happening again, escpecially on a track where the racing groove is the entire width of the track. The only thing I worry about is whether they have to use restrictor plates for a short time there because otherwise, you might see a 200 MPH lap in qualifying. After all, the cars were running in excess of 205 on the frontstretch and over 200 on the backstretch. When the track is repaved, those speeds might go up to 215 on the frontstretch and up to 210 on the backstretch. But in about three to five years after repaving, the racing groove and character of the track will be pretty much back to what it is today." I don't want to see MIS with plates on the cars. I'd rather have NASCAR not race there with plates on the cars. The N'wide cars can get away with it because they have lower horse power. I'd rather see NASCAR increase the drag the cars have (even if it means putting the wicker bill on the cars.) It'll basically been an IROC race on steriods. Yeah it will not take long for the track weather and get worn but for the those years right after the re-pave i do not want to see. "As for next week, Robby WILL NOT park in the race as it'll be a race he actually has a chance to win, being on a road course." Robby will find someway to hose himself out of a good finish. I'll respond to the "aero-push" topic later. 108. Anonymous posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But to my original point, you are damn right mental stability is the cornerstone of my arguments. It is the biggest determining factor in a driver's success." And it's also something that can't be measured or proven. So go right ahead and keep using it as the cornerstone of your arguments. Just know that it makes your arguments flimsy and hollow. 109. #17MK#17 posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #107 -"I totally agree with you...it makes you feel like you're watching a rigged puppet show sometimes." Oh there is the "Rigged" word again. For everytime i've seen a "fan" throw that word around i'd be retired by now. The only puppet show on here is fans thinking NASCAR is rigged. Moving on..... You can not say emphatically with a straight face that there is no form of rigging and/or cheating, etc. in some manner that goes on in Nascar. If so, I have an oceanfront property in Arizona I want you to look at... btw- puppet show was the point my friend. 110. Talon64 posted: 06.20.2011 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That takes the full-time competitive teams from 29 to 27 for next year. Wow." RBR's looking for outside investors to buy the team. But Red Bull owned AND sponsored a decent two-car Cup team, so that's going to be a lot for investors to handle with not only buying the team but finding sponsorship. 111. irony posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Irony (#84), I said that he (Dale Earnhardt, Sr.) won two championships and 15 races in the three years that Andy Petree was his crew chief from 1993-'95, not for his entire career. Please, if you are going to correct or dispute my facts, please read the entire post before doing so." Um I know what you said. Take your own advice. 112. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone else notice that not a single piece of debris came off of Junior's car when he slapped the wall. Does anyone else find it strange that NASCAR is quick to throw a yellow for a minor incident that in no way endangers anyone, like Junior's wreck, particularly a car slapping a wall and leaving no debris? A car like that should be able to just pull in the pits at no hassle to the other drivers, especially with aprons on most of the tracks. Do I notice that NASCAR will typically be quick to throw a yellow when a "big-name" driver is about to be lapped? 113. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am surprised about Red Bull. When I first heard about them coming, I didn't think they would stick around past Year 2. But having come this far, I figured they were here to stay. I was wrong. I hate it for their employees. A lot of people will be out of work now. Overall, the Red Bull effort was doomed from Day 1. For numerous reasons. First of all, their owner is in Austria. In NASCAR decisions need to be made instantly. That couldn't happen with them. Secondly, they hooked up with Toyota and got their engines and support from TRD. They cannot make good and reliable Cup engines and are behind on their engineering. Just look at MWR. They have two talented drivers basically taking up space out there. Unless you are building your own Toyota cars and motors, you can't compete very often in Cup. Third, they had Brian Vickers as their lead guy. He simply isn't a Cup caliber driver. He definitely isn't a cornerstone for an organization. They chose him because he is all about the "Red Bull Lifestyle" and all the bells and whistles that goes with that because he is a boring guy and needs to skydive into Daytona to be seen as the least bit interesting. Which brings me to my fourth point. Red Bull and NASCAR are simply a marketing mismatch. We could care less about people skydiving or car jumps or other "extreme" stuff that Evel Knevel was doing 40 years ago when it was truly ground breaking. 114. IglooRacer posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper-your theory is sorta used in Moto GP, rookie riders aren't allowed to sign on with a worksfactory team they have to race for a privateer. Example would be American rider Ben Spies, I think he raced for Tech3 which use yamaha bikes last year, this year he rides for the yamaha factory team. Similar idea yea? 115. Smokefan05 posted: 06.20.2011 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #108 Influence yes, they do do that. But outright rig? No. and "if" a governing body did rig a race, then that series would lose all credibility what so ever. And the fact that the media today is so intrusive in everything they cover, it would get out. BF and Crew aren't that stupid to "rig" a race. ANd "if" they did, Dale Jr. would be where Jimmie Johnson is right now. I know what i'm going to say maybe get me in trouble but the FIA (namely the people who run F1) have let "rigging" go (namely a certain team with red cars). Unless somebody on here can find me concrete 100% proof that NASCAR does in fact "rig" races then until someone does, i'm waving the BS flag. (i'll give you debris caution but even i think 50% are legit) It's easier to rig a soccer match then it is to rig an auto race. Auto racing has so many factors that goes into an auto race it isn't even funny. Any racefan should know this. 116. Eric posted: 06.20.2011 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, While it is true that it is hard to sell Red Bull to Jr. fans, Red Bull didn't do any favors by not having a 2nd competitive team for Vickers to communicate with before Kasey came along in terms of sharing notes. Vickers isn't supposed the number 1 driver a first place on any above average cup teams, but it was made even worse when your 2nd team is way behind your number 1 cup team. That problem was brought on by Red Bull themselves and it prevented them from being more than a mid pack organization. People might have bought more Red Bull if they were more successful as a cup team because if the drivers do well, the drivers get a bigger fan base depending on their personality on or off the track. 117. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, I think it's actually Trevor Bayne's third top 20 since winning the Daytona 500, but it is his second finish higher than 20th since then. (He finished 20th at Las Vegas, I believe. He also has top 20 finishes now in half his starts in the #21 car, but none on a non-RP track better than Stenhouse's 11th at Charlotte (in a race in which he was lapped twice and hit the wall about five times before the halfway mark). In fact, Bayne has yet to score a top-15 on a non-RP track (and probably won't this year). Also, irony (#110), I'm sorry if you took that reply as an insult and I apologize if that's the case. And Smokefan05, no one wants to see plates on the cars at MIS, but it wouldn't be the first time it happened. In fact, the first race ever run with restrictor plates was in August of 1970, at the Michigan International Speedway. Horsepower-restricting devices remained on the cars at all tracks through 1974, when the rules makers downsized the engines to the current limit of 358 cubic inches. Oh, and I don't think races are intentionally rigged, I just think that NASCAR occasionally throws the caution flag during a long period of green flag racing when there's nothing on the track to keep the leader from getting too big of a lead. They may even throw a debris caution just to inspect the track to see if there's any debris on it. 118. Anonymous posted: 06.20.2011 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Carl Edwards lost in 08 because he's mentally unstable." He lost because he caused the Big One at Dega and lost an ignition box at Charlotte. "In fact, I bet he's crazy enough to murder someone!" He tried to do that twice last year." That's so stupid it could cause cancer. If you truly believe that Carl Edwards attempted murder, that it was his intention to kill another human being, and this isn't just some hyperbolic pro-Keselowski bull crap joke on your part, then you have lost every last shred of credibility you had and you should just stop watching racing right now, because it's not for you. And get yourself some psychiatric help, immediately. It blows me away that someone could misinterpret a definition so badly, and that this same person is also probably a voter. May god help us all. 119. Cooper posted: 06.20.2011 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 114. IglooRacer posted: 06.20.11 - 5:45 pm "Example would be American rider Ben Spies, I think he raced for Tech3 which use yamaha bikes last year, this year he rides for the yamaha factory team. Similar idea yea?" Perfect example. Unfortunately I don't think NASCAR can govern this type of theory. The old theory was the "ABC" system. ARCA,BUSCH,CUP. It was the genuinely accepted rule for owners. Then a driver named Jimmie Johnson goes from Busch Series also ran to Winston Cup winner in less than a year. Suddenly everyone starts looking for the next Jimmie Johnson and they rush marketable drivers into the Cup series. Next thing you know they're running 25th and being kicked to the curb two years later. NASCAR races aren't rigged. I'm a big critic of NASCAR but I know that it's nearly impossible to play a whole race with an agenda. The problem is CONSISTENCY. NASCAR has lacked that in recent years but have gained some of it backed. I think I've got them figured out... WRECK--Caution SPIN in normal green conditions-Caution SPIN during green flag pit stops-NO Caution SPIN on GWC-NO Caution Two sets of green flag pit stops-Throw debris caution "Phantom debris" 120. #17MK#17 posted: 06.20.2011 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #115 - "Unless somebody on here can find me concrete 100% proof that NASCAR does in fact "rig" races then until someone does, i'm waving the BS flag. (i'll give you debris caution but even i think 50% are legit)" I'm sorry, when I said, "rigged puppet show', I was referring to the phantom debris causing yellow flags scenario. My bad, should have clarified myself better... 121. 00andJoe posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #99: That drives me NUTS that they don't do that. I thought we'd gotten over that with the Darlington-Dover-Charlotte-Kansas set of pit-strategy wins, but guess not. Grr! 122. Smokefan05 posted: 06.20.2011 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm sorry, when I said, "rigged puppet show', I was referring to the phantom debris causing yellow flags scenario. My bad, should have clarified myself better..." Remember Kasey Kahne at Dover in 04? Hit some oil that NASCAR never waved the yellow for, and wrecked. I'm willing bet that some of those caution are for legit reasons. And if for some reason a drivers race gets ruined by a piece of debris that NASCAR never waved the yellow for, i'll say "now you know why they do it." 123. irony posted: 06.20.2011 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's no way every debris caution is legitimate. Just no way. They're almost predictable. It was funny when they invited Stewart to the control tower for a NW race at Richmond. Like there's gonna be fake cautions in a short track NW race. 124. cjs3872 posted: 06.20.2011 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Kasey Kahne incident at Dover in 2004 was a a shame, but the most infamous incident concerning leaders running into oil on the track occurred in the 1980 Southern 500 in the last couple of laps. At that time David Pearson, who seeking a fourth Southern 500 win in five years was leading, with Dale Earnhardt, who's car Pearson had won the race with in 1979, running second, and Benny Parsons, who had never won the race (and never would) running third, with Terry Labonte a distant fourth. But on the next to last lap, all three leaders ran into oil in turn one (what is now turn three) and hit the wall. Earnhardt and Parsons lost control with Parsons spinning out. Meanwhile, Pearson's car was slowing, but was also still leading. Neil Bonnett and Bobby Allison passed Pearson's ailing car to make up a lap. (Bonnett's move actually allowed him to finish in front of Parsons.) Then Terry Labonte, who was far enough behind the incident that he didn't have to take any evasive action stormed up to Pearson, and despite a light attempt by Pearson to cut Labonte off, Labonte beat Pearson to the line by about three feet to take both the caution and the white flag as the leader, and score his first victory in the very race he made his debut in 1978. He wouldn't win again until 1983, while Pearson would never win a Cup race again. So sometimes, trying to finish an event under green whenever possible, even if there's debris or even oil on the track, things just don't go the way anyone wants, and freak incidents like the Kahne incident at Dover, or the incident I just mentioned, can occur. 125. Red posted: 06.21.2011 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There's no way every debris caution is legitimate. Just no way. They're almost predictable" I agree. Last week's Pocono race was a great example. Four cautions, ALL for debris, yet TNT never showed any of it. Why not? Because there wasn't any! Interesting to note that we had a caution-free race in 1999, 2001, and 2002. Then Brian France takes over in 2003 and we go 8+ seasons without one. And I would bet everything I own that we never see another caution-free race in Sprint Cup, because the powers-that-be simply won't allow it. 126. Red posted: 06.21.2011 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mental stability is the cornerstone of any truly successful athlete." At the professional level of any sport, I agree with this 100%. It's especially true in the current era, when athletes are coddled and insulated from the real world throughout their development process. As much as I want to dislike Lebron James, I really have to put much of the blame on his handlers. From day one, Lebron was treated as the messiah, told he could do no wrong, that he was a superhero, that he was the chosen one (his tattoo even says so!). Growing up in that environment, he never had to face adversity, or learn things the hard way, so it's no surprise that he wilts under pressure and acts like an entitled prick. We as a society created the Lebron James we see today. The same is true in NASCAR, althought not to quite the extreme of stick-and-ball sports. Look at Kyle Busch's upbringing. His dad forged his freaking birth certificate in order to enter him in late model races. If that doesn't foster a sense of entitlement, I don't know what will. Now that he's "grown up", he still expects everything to go his way, and when it doesn't, he throws a fit, because he's not used to dealing with real-world adversity. 127. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.21.2011 - 1:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well that sucks that Red Bull's leaving. Then again, it could be the best thing to happen to Cole Whitt since RBR's history of bringing up drivers isn't that great; they gave up on Allmendinger in favor of Speed who sucked." Pretty much. I know Scott won a Truck race, but he had also just started in that series and he didn't really show me anything that made me think, "this guy could be a good driver in Cup". I started to see potential for Allmendinger once he started running in the top 15 every week in the #84 after Skinner mentored him, and am glad he found a home with RPM. I'm really surprised RBR is leaving, but I can't say I totally missed it coming. They're not running things the "ideal" way in NASCAR by having their team owner in Austria and not knowing what is going on around the sport. I wonder what this will do to Brian Vickers' career. He's not a great driver, but he doesn't totally suck either. His ceiling is probably at best, a 15th-20th place driver. 128. 00andJoe posted: 06.21.2011 - 2:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sonoma entry list update: Tomy Drissi in the #37. 129. IglooRacer posted: 06.21.2011 - 8:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a huge supporter of the red bull team I'm really disappointed that they will leave, I hope they reconsider. The red bull team was very popular with the younger fan base. Cooper- I agree that it would not only be hard to govern but some teams would probably be insulted being a called a tier 2 team. RPM is a tier 2 team ( but improving) but I don't think that title would sit well with The King. 130. #17MK#17 posted: 06.21.2011 - 9:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When I originally commented, I was doing so to cjs3872 #60 thread. I do not believe that a race can be rigged, but i do believe that there are some playing the Great OZ behind the curtain; and when you have drivers saying the same thing...all I'm saying is, "If it looks like a duck..." Tony Stewart - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/138028-debris-yellows-cause-controversy Denny Hamlin & Jeff Gordon - http://blog.al.com/blogoftomorrow/2010/06/late_debris_cautions_are_tarni.html Kasey Kahn - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSIDAJyxlvc 131. Scott B posted: 06.21.2011 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another Sonoma update, #51 now shown as Boris Said as had been expected. P.J. Jones still listed in #77 (the second RGM entry), which would be 44 cars attemting to qualify. #21 Bayne & #92 Brian Kes among those sitting this one out. 132. Scott B posted: 06.21.2011 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Re Posts #114 and #119, Very unlikely NASCAR would adopt any rule like that. This goes back to their opposition to a drivers' union. They want to keep everyone "independent contractors" and one way to do that is to leave teams maximum flexibility to hire or fire drivers at will. Only if a driver is really lacking in experience will they hold back approval or require a few laps for "oberservation." Beyond that, I don't think NASCAR would want to admit there is such a thing as a second-tier team. So far, they can't even get past listing all those S&P entries as out due to "vibration" or "electrical" for thirty consecutive events. ;) 133. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Then a driver named Jimmie Johnson goes from Busch Series also ran to Winston Cup winner in less than a year. Suddenly everyone starts looking for the next Jimmie Johnson and they rush marketable drivers into the Cup series. Next thing you know they're running 25th and being kicked to the curb two years later." You are right. That is example #319 of JJ screwing things up while just going out and doing his job. I kinda feel for him (as much as I can feel for a guy that is on his own level within his own sport, a multi multi multi millionaire, and has a model for a wife), he just goes out there and does what is expected of him, does his job better than anyone, and doesn't cause any embarrassments. Yet just about every current issue with NASCAR that turns fans off can be traced to him. "NASCAR races aren't rigged. I'm a big critic of NASCAR but I know that it's nearly impossible to play a whole race with an agenda. The problem is CONSISTENCY." Bingo. That has been my issue with NASCAR. From the yellow line rule at the plate tracks, to penalties for infractions, to the way they decide to throw cautions, they have too much "sometimes they do, sometimes they don't" to their rulings. If they would be more uniform in their rulings it wouldn't raise as many questions. A good example is the recent JGR infractions. Some of the trolls have called me every name in the book like they usually do for wondering how NASCAR will handle this (btw, I have quit responding to trolls directly, I tried to foster discussion, but it is obvious all they wanna do is be involved in flame wars, and I don't do that). Trying to predict how NASCAR will handle something is a shot in the dark. And it shouldn't be like that. "but the most infamous incident concerning leaders running into oil on the track occurred in the 1980 Southern 500 in the last couple of laps." I saw the ending to that on YouTube about a month ago. That was wild. "We as a society created the Lebron James we see today." I agree with this in principle. I blame it more on his inner circle, his enablers that have stuck to him like flypaper trying to get their piece of the pie he brings in. They never have done what any true friends should have done and that is make him face reality. They just keep kissing his ass and telling him, like you said, that he is "The King". That he is "The Chosen One" and that everything he does will turn out right just because he is who he is (seriously, SOMEBODY in his circle HAD to know The Decision was a stupid idea that would turn any self respecting person against him). Honestly, there are a lot of parallels between him and Kyle Busch like you said. They both had their freakish talent recognized early, got surrounded by people who never gave them any reality checks. Even after Hendrick, who knew damn well how talented Kyle is, decided to keep Casey Mears instead of him due to his constant immature behavior, he didn't take this as chance to look himself in the mirror and say "I am doing something wrong". Instead, like LeBron in Miami, he actually got worse. They each decided they needed to shove their way of doing things in people's faces, only to ultimately to beat and have most people rejoicing for this. "Now that he's "grown up", he still expects everything to go his way, and when it doesn't, he throws a fit, because he's not used to dealing with real-world adversity." Exactly. And like I have mentioned before on his driver page and on other race pages, if he doesn't clean this up, he may get black balled from the sport before he even gets a chance to reach his prime. "He's not a great driver, but he doesn't totally suck either. His ceiling is probably at best, a 15th-20th place driver." I agree. I was probably a little too harsh on him. But you are right in wondering where this will leave him. He is not somebody the big teams will look for most likely. He is another victim of "too soon". About the only tracks he can compete at are the big, wide, worn out tracks where he can rim ride after 15 laps and not have to worry about racing people. But with the rash of repaves coming up, this will hurt him. He looks like he may be the next Casey Atwood. 134. 00andJoe posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #129 - Now there's chat that Red Bull might change from 'two team owner' to 'one driver's sponsor' (and also that they might keep sponsoring Cole Whitt). DSFF - I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. Vickers has two wins in Cup to Casey's goose-egg, while he won a Busch championship and Casey didn't. I'd say Lake Speed would be a better comparison for Vickers: steady, consistent, stays out of trouble, but he does so in the middle of the pack 90% of the time instead of the front. 135. Rusty posted: 06.21.2011 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love how every week the comment section blows up wuth 100+ comments and almost all of them have nothing to do with the actual race. 136. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.21.2011 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason why today's drivers can't be fixed is that it is a different era. From 1949-1990, drivers like Kyle Busch would get put in the wall by guys like Lee Petty, Bobby Allison, or Dale Earnhardt, and if they didn't grow up they were given a crying towel and immediately black balled. 137. Scott B posted: 06.21.2011 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gibbs oil pan penalties announced. $50,000 fine and probation till the end of the year for all 3 crew chiefs, also probation till the end of the year for all three car chiefs and Jimmy Makar. No points deductions, as is normal for something found pre-race. 138. cjs3872 posted: 06.21.2011 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, if the "Casey" you're referring to is Casey Mears, he actually DOES have one Cup series win, and in one of the sport's crown jewels as well, the 2007 Coca-Cola 600 (ironically on Memorial Day weekend, the same weekend his uncle Rick won the Indianapolis 500 a record-tying four times), though it was on gas mileage. Though you are correct about Brian Vickers having two Cup wins. Ironically, both came at the expense of Jimmie Johnson (once when he spun Johnson and Dale, Jr. out on the last lap at talladega, and the August Michigan race in 2009, when he was able to stretch his fuel supply, while Johnson ran out while leading). But, please, don't say someone doesn't have a win when they, in fact, have one in one of the top events on the circuit. 139. cjs3872 posted: 06.21.2011 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Disregard that last post, please, I was referring to the wrong "Casey". 00andJoe, I deeply apologize for the error. You are correct about Atwood never winning in Cup, though he did come close at Homestead in 2001, finishing third after being passed for the lead late by teammate Bill Elliott, who won himself for the first time in over seven years. (Michael Waltrip also passed Atwood to finish second.) Atwood also got his first NNS win with a cheap shot pass on Jeff Green at Milwaukee, I believe. Atwood is also the test case for not hurrying drivers like Stenhouse, Bayne, Whitt, and Dillon to Cup racing before they're ready, something that Joe Gibbs is probably regretting right now concerning Joey Logano, though his organization hasn't given Logano a fair shot in Cup, either. 140. Anonymous posted: 06.21.2011 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I wonder if NASCAR will allow this win by Denny to count towards the cha$e standings. In 2008 Carl won a race (I'm pretty sure it was Vegas, but it may have been Cali) after being caught with the lid off his oil tank, and NASCAR wouldn't let him use those bonus points in the cha$e. Will they do the same to Denny? Also this opens up a whole new can of worms. Will they allow it to count for his cha$e wild card if he finishes out of the Top 10 (which I highly doubt, but a decision about it still has to be made)?" Looks like your assumptions were flat out wrong, as usual. No points penalties at all. Turns out NASCAR can distinguish between pre-race and post-race infractions, and how those things affect a car, unlike you. Now here's the part where you complain that they went too soft, because you hate the drivers and think they should be treated differently from everyone else because you hate them so much. 141. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are right that Brian has done better than Casey. I just use the "Casey Atwood" tag for drivers that are moved up too soon, too young, get chewed up and spit out, get their confidence rattled because they are heralded as the next superstar, and generally become damaged goods. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Nico, you are absolutely right. 142. cjs3872 posted: 06.21.2011 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was shocked that there were no points penalties involved, even though those overweight oil pans never made it onto the track, because that was an obvious attempt to cheat, in my book. That's especially true when you consider that the team was fined a total of $150,000 ($50,000 for each of the crew chiefs) and all three crew chiefs plus Jimmy Makar were put on probation for the remainder of the year, although I have absolutely no idea why probations are extended beyond the end of the season, especially since there is no activity between the final race of the season and the final day of the calendar year. I also imagine that Denny Hamlin would get to carry the paltry bonus points earned for the win into the Chase, should he make it by finishing in the top 10 in the championship standings after the 26th race. 143. Smokefan05 posted: 06.21.2011 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I love how every week the comment section blows up wuth 100+ comments and almost all of them have nothing to do with the actual race." +1 The fine for the JGR guys is fine with me, but to others it isn't ok. But fandome can ruin a persons view of something and this is one of those situations. Now the JGR guys got caught AFTER the race, then i'd be betting that NASCAR woldn't be happy about it. 144. Mark O. posted: 06.21.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @#142: "plus Jimmy Makar were put on probation for the remainder of the year, although I have absolutely no idea why probations are extended beyond the end of the season" They can still behave badly outside of the regular season. Say, for example, one of the fined crew chiefs goes on stage at the banquet (not that this would happen) and blasts NASCAR for a call made earlier in the year. 145. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Typical NASCAR. Precedence? They don't care. 146. Red posted: 06.21.2011 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like others have mentioned, Brian Vickers is not going to have much value as a free agent. He's only been decent on the intermediates and plate tracks, which are more about the car than the driver. On driver's tracks? Yikes: Short tracks: 0 top-fives in 38 starts, average finish 23.0 Road courses: 0 top-fives in 11 starts, average finish 20.4 In fact, he's only had 3 top-fives in his CAREER on driver's tracks (one each at Phoenix, Loudon, and Dover). And remember, three of those years were in a Hendrick car. Sorry Brian, you are not a very good Cup driver. 147. Red posted: 06.21.2011 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry to double post, but the same damning evidence also applies to David Ragan's career. Short tracks: 2 top-fives in 28 starts, average finish 20.5, 0 laps led Road courses: 0 top-tens in 8 starts, average finish 27.8, 0 laps led He's had a pair of top-fives at Richmond, and one this year at Darlington. Other than that, David has been absolutely pitiful on tracks where the driver matters most. And in a Roush car no less. My favorite David Ragan Futility stat: On tracks smaller than 1.5 miles, Ragan has led 2 laps in his entire career. That is almost incomprehensibly pathetic. 148. Cooper posted: 06.21.2011 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper's interesting fact of the race: --Denny Hamlin is the first driver to win this event back to back since Davey Allison won this race in both 1991 and 1992. You don't have to look this up because I already did. 149. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes! Those are some pretty damning stats Red. I knew neither did all that well on tough tracks, but not until I saw your posts did I realize they were THAT bad. Anyone else remember Vickers wrecking by himself ON THE STRAIGHTAWAY at Darlington once in the #25 car. They were halfway down the backstraight, Brian moved out to pass somebody and just lost it. 150. Anonymous posted: 06.21.2011 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Typical NASCAR. Precedence? They don't care." Show me what set the precedent, or just shut up about it. You only think they deserve a worse penalty because you hate the drivers, as I predicted. If this happened to Kenseth or Keselowski, you wouldn't be making a peep about the penalty. Show us all where a similar situation has resulted in a different penalty. Either put it up, or knock it off with the fanboy bullcrap. 151. JG24FanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #142 remember at Sonoma in 2007 when Gordon and Johnson both were kept from qualifying and weren't allowed to cut practice laps until final practice and both had to start 41st and 42nd because of something discovered before the event? Why were the Gibb's bunch treated with just a slap? 152. JG24FanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've noticed people are calling Dale Inman the only 8 time champ is Nascar Cup,well this simply isn't true here are the Driver's,Ownwer's,and Crew Chief's with the most Championship's in Cup. 1. Richard Petty 14: 7 as a Driver and 7 as an owner 2. Lee Petty 13: 3 as a Driver and 10 as an owner 3. Rick Hendrick 10: all as an owner 4. Jeff Gordon 9: 4 as a Driver and 5 as an owner 5. Dale Inman 8: all as Crew Chief 6. Dale Earnhardt 7: all as a driver 7. Junior Johnson 6: all as an Owner 8. Richard Childress 6: all as an Owner 9. Jimmie Johnson 5: all as a driver 10. Chad Knaus 5: all as a Crew Chief That make's 5 8+ time Champion's and 10 5+ 153. JG24FanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) and don't forget that Alan Kulwicki won 2 Championship's when he won in 1992 154. cjs3872 posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, exactly. In fact, I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that Gordon and Johnson were also penalized 100 points apiece, and each had their crew chiefs suspended for six weeks for the pre-race rules infraction regarding the body (left front fender, I believe), although NASCAR deemed it a "Car of Tomorrow" infraction, which was delt with almost as harshly as if they had been caught with an oversized engine. I also mentioned in that earler post that Rusty Wallace years earlier had been docked points for a pre-qualifying rules infraction at Talladega. So why Gibbs' teams weren't docked, say 20 points each (or roughly about 100 points in the old points format) is beyond me. 155. cjs3872 posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red (#147), just another reason why Roush needs to cut bait with Ragan, which he had the opportunity to do two years ago, when decided to keep Ragan and get rid of Jamie McMurray when he had to reduce the number of teams he had from five to four. All McMurray did the following year (2010) was to win arguably the two biggest races on the circuit, and finsihed no worse than second in ALL FIVE crown jewel races that year. (He won the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 and finished second in the Spring race at Talladega, being eged right at the finish by Kevin Harvick, finished second in the southern 500, where he won the pole posision, and finished second in the Coca-Cola 600, which he would have also won had it not been for a late caution flag.) Oh, and Ragan has led a grand total of 73 laps in nearly four and a half years in the #6 car, which used to be Roush's flagship car. That's why Roush may put Ricky Stenhouse in that car next year over Trevor Bayne if Ragan is released and Roush doesn't choose a veteran driver, because Stenhouse actually drives to the front and leads races. Bayne doesn't even lead races, preferring to play it conservatively until the last third of the race when he makes his move to the front. He even did that in his Daytona 500 win, which he inherited when Ragan was penalized for changing lanes on the first GWC restart. Bayne never led the race until that time, despite having the fastest car in the field. 156. JG24FanForever posted: 06.21.2011 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention Richard Petty's 7 title's as an owner were all in partnership with Lee, and all of Jeff Gordon's 5 owner title's are in partnership with Hendrick with Gordon being 75% owner of the #48. Has anyone ever seen Alan Kulwicki's Owner's Title trophy? 157. PJ1989 posted: 06.22.2011 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "remember at Sonoma in 2007 when Gordon and Johnson both were kept from qualifying and weren't allowed to cut practice laps until final practice and both had to start 41st and 42nd because of something discovered before the event? Why were the Gibb's bunch treated with just a slap?" Those cars were found to have illegally modified existing parts, the Gibbs cars had a new part that not yet been submitted for approval. That's the difference I see. But most importantly, in 2007 NASCAR was still nailing down the rules with the new COT, so it's hard to compare with this year. What you need to look out for is what happens next time something like this happens, because I'm sure NASCAR will hand out a consistent penalty with this one. I know some people want to look at this like NASCAR ignoring it's own precedents, but the rule book changes over time, even year to year. So you can really only compare this penalty with another one that happens this year. And it's all going to change again in 2013 with the new car, as they slowly evolve the rules and nail down the penalties in that era as well. That's just part of NASCAR, always has been. 158. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.22.2011 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with DSFF and Red about Vickers for the most part. Back in 2003 I expected him to do better than he did with HMS. The only thing that makes me wonder about his future is that another second tier team might pick him up seeing as he'll get you the occasional top 10 finish. David Ragan's 2008 season looks more and more like a fluke as the years go by. Most fans thought he would take that experience and better his career, instead he did the exact opposite. My only question is who will take over that ride next season, Bayne or Stenhouse? David's been given chance after chance and hasn't gotten the job done. "I love how every week the comment section blows up wuth 100+ comments and almost all of them have nothing to do with the actual race." In my opinion, that's the cool thing about this site. We start off talking about the race, and discussions branch out. 159. Red posted: 06.22.2011 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he decided to keep Ragan and get rid of Jamie McMurray when he had to reduce the number of teams he had from five to four" That decision by Jack still boggles my mind. Not only does Jamie Mac have a ton more talent than Ragan, but he's also more marketable and easy for fans to relate to. In retrospect, I'm happy for Jamie that he was allowed to return home to Ganassi and get his confidence back, but it was still a head-scratcher at the time. "David Ragan's 2008 season looks more and more like a fluke as the years go by" I couldn't agree more. And in all honesty, his 2008 performance wasn't even that impressive when you consider how well his teammates ran. The other Roush drivers combined for 11 wins and 3 chase appearances, with Edwards and Biffle having a legitimate shot at the title. And to reiterate my previous post, most of Ragan's success that year came on the aero-dependent tracks where Roush engineering could overcome his lack of driving ability. I feel kinda bad saying this, but I was very relieved when David choked away this year's Daytona 500. Had he won that race, he probably would have received an undeserved contract extension, and kept a more deserving driver out of the #6 for that much longer. 160. cjs3872 posted: 06.22.2011 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Vickers is yet another case how how success in the Nationwide (formerly Busch) Series does not often translate into success on the Cup level. Vickers won the NNS title in 2003, and then Martin Truex, Jr. won it the next two years. Those two drivers have, to date COMBINED for three victories on the Cup level. Then there's the case of brothers David and Jeff Green, both of whom are NNS champions. While david never got a fair shot at the Cup level, the same can not be said about Jeff, who was also a complete flop, even though he drove for Richard Childress (who was struggling at that time) and the Pettys (who haven't been competitve on a consistent basis since about 1999). Steve Grissom, the NNS champ in 1993 was also terrible at the Cup level. Meanwhile, drivers like Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart were mediocre, at best, in the NNS series, but all three proved to be among the 20 greatest drivers in Cup history, with 11 championships in the last 16 years combined. Matt Kenserth and Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s rivalry in that series has also turned in the Cup series. In the NNS series, it was Dale, Jr. that seemed to always come out on top, but in the Cup series, Kenseth has turned out to be the better of the two. And there is also the fact the Bobby Labonte is still the only driver ever to win championships in both series (and no, I wouldn't count it if Carl Edwards, Kyle Busch, or Clint Bowyer turned the trick in the Cup series, since they were full-time Cup drivers when they won the NNS championship, though I would count Kevin Harvick if he should turn the trick, since his first NNS championship came in 2001, when he was originally going to run the entire NNS schedule, but only a limited Cup schedule, but that changed when Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was killed at the end of the 2001 Daytona 500). 161. IglooRacer posted: 06.22.2011 - 9:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs- in all fairness to vickers he was never given competitive equipment, when was hendricks 25 team last competitive and competing for wins? Way back when Tim Richmond was driving it. Even jr who drives the former 25 team has struggled often. Then vickers moves to the new Red Bull team when Toyota entered, no one expected him to compete and to me he has done a respectful job for that team, we know their hearts are in the F1 team more then the NASCAR team. The same with alot of the other champions, they were given sub par equipment, the young drivers are brought up so fast they don't even run a full nationwide season, think Joey logano and Tony Stewart. Here's a thought if Ricky stenhouse were to win the nationwide title, get a cup ride, be successful and win the cup title in the next 5 or 6 years would anyone say that this rule where you can only earn points in one series a success? 162. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.22.2011 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Precedence: Daytona 2007: Mikey and Rocket Fuel Gate. A week before the 500 he was busted and docked 150 points (and rightfully so) Daytona 2007: Matt Kenseth is docked points for qualifying infractions and well as both Evernham cars (and rightfully so) Sears Point 2007: Gordon and Johnson are both docked 100 points for PRE QUALIFYING infractions (and rightfully so) Bristol 2004: Jamie Mac is docked points for a PRE QUALIFYING infraction, and winds up missing the cha$e by less points than he was docked (and rightfully so) Daytona 2008: Martin Truex is docked points for PRE QUALIFYING infractions (and rightfully so) Need any more? 163. 18fan posted: 06.22.2011 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I agree with the fact that the penalties were a slap on the wrist and right after the race I thought it was important for Kyle and Denny to finish so well because they would be hurt less by harsh penalties. NASCAR must have said because the infraction was "Not submitting a part for approval" rather than not conforming to the templates that a points penalty was not necessary. 164. Anonymous posted: 06.22.2011 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Waltrip 07 -if you can't see the difference, you're a moron. Some penalties found post-qualifying as well. Kenseth 07 - came after qualifying, different. Gordon/Johnson 07 - illegally modified fenders, shows direct intention to cheat, different than not submitting a new part as teams do all the time, though that was also part of their penalty. Broke additional rules that Gibbs cars did not (20-2.1E, hey, I can use Jayski too!) McMurray 04 - NASCAR always treats chassis problems more severely, different. Truex 08 - see, McMurray 04 And yes, it looks like I'm going to need some more. I'd like to see a different fine as a result of the exact same rules that were broken by the Gibbs cars. Not ones that you just think were similar because you're biased. And bear in mind I have the internet and can look at the old Jayski penalties page just like you, making it easy to call you on your BS. 165. Smokefan05 posted: 06.22.2011 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Those cars were found to have illegally modified existing parts, the Gibbs cars had a new part that not yet been submitted for approval. That's the difference I see. But most importantly, in 2007 NASCAR was still nailing down the rules with the new COT, so it's hard to compare with this year. What you need to look out for is what happens next time something like this happens, because I'm sure NASCAR will hand out a consistent penalty with this one. I know some people want to look at this like NASCAR ignoring it's own precedents, but the rule book changes over time, even year to year. So you can really only compare this penalty with another one that happens this year. And it's all going to change again in 2013 with the new car, as they slowly evolve the rules and nail down the penalties in that era as well. That's just part of NASCAR, always has been." Agree with this 100%. Like i said before, if they gotten away with it pre-race but got busted post-race for then i'd be betting NASCAR would treat the situation differently. NASCAR can find just about anything these days that isn't to their rules. It was a grey area and the JGR bunch tried something. 166. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.22.2011 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smokefan you are right............ in theory. It's just that NASCAR needs to have a set standard for penalties. A set chart. If you get caught with an unapproved part pre-race, you get X penalty. If you are caught with a post race infraction, you get Y penalty. If your car doesn't match the templates, you get Z penalty. Like in football. You grab and yank somebody's facemask, you get a 15 yard penalty. You get caught for holding, you get a 10 yard penalty. You jump offsides, you get a 5 yard penalty. NASCAR just makes it up as they go. They said in the past they are not going to judge intent. It is either legal or it isn't. They need uniform penalties. The question I have now is this: Why are they being so light on JGR? My guess is that it is because of Home Depot. NASCAR and Home Depot are in bed together so deep it is ridiculous. The number of ridiculous calls that car has got over the years is staggering. And Home Depot made it very clear they are not happy with the way things are going with their car. Within the Home Improvement Warehouses cars, they are a distant 3rd. The Menards car is beating them this year with The Empire driving, and no explanation is necessary for the Lowe's car. Which, btw, is the main reason I am getting a bit curious as to what Carl will do. I ultimately think he will re-sign with Roush, but Home Depot has to be offering him the Farm. With the exception of a really good stretch in last year's cha$e, the last 2 and 1/2 years for their car have been putrid, Zippy looks like he might be walking out the door any moment now, and Logano has proven to be marketable to pretty much nobody except rich kids from Connecticut. And they don't shop at places like Home Depot, they pay people to do the shopping and all the work for their home improvement projects. I kinda feel bad for him, he was thrown up way too soon and shoved down everyone's throats and has absolutely zero personality or anything 99% of race fans can remotely relate to. He is so vanilla, he makes Jimmie Johnson seem like Curtis Turner. Even his scuffles with other drivers (Harvick, Newman, JPM) have been boring. But he has been bred to do nothing except race his whole life, so what did Home Depot expect? So yeah, Home Depot is very unhappy so NASCAR is probably looking to not throw any further bad news their way. 167. Cooper posted: 06.22.2011 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That brings me to another point I wanted to mention. How does a 20 year old kid help Home Depot sell Home Improvement merchandise? I don't even think Joey owns a house. Fans of Joey are teenage video gamers (speculating) who live in an apartment or a dorm room. Just doesn't make sense to me that a company would spend millions of dollars on a driver that doesn't represent the brand. Tony Stewart was perfect for Home Depot. Surprised Home Depot didn't ask for a more suitable driver. Whatever. 168. Talon64 posted: 06.22.2011 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fans of Joey are teenage video gamers (speculating) who live in an apartment or a dorm room." His NNS sponsor, GameStop, caters to the young demographic a LOT more than Home Depot does. I wonder if they'd be willing to step up to Cup if Carl ends up taking over the #20 Home Depot car. "The question I have now is this: Why are they being so light on JGR? My guess is that it is because of Home Depot. NASCAR and Home Depot are in bed together so deep it is ridiculous. The number of ridiculous calls that car has got over the years is staggering. And Home Depot made it very clear they are not happy with the way things are going with their car. Within the Home Improvement Warehouses cars, they are a distant 3rd. The Menards car is beating them this year with The Empire driving, and no explanation is necessary for the Lowe's car." Okay, that's just ridiculous. The thing about JGR's "illegal" oil pans is that they were never approved by NASCAR, otherwise they would've been perfectly fine; there's no weight limit to the oil pans, only restrictions on the dimensions and they were about 30 pounds when normally they're about 5 pounds. If they put them forward to NASCAR and they approve them, then there's nothing stopping them from using them in the future. I'm of the mind that any post-race infraction should result in a disqualification, just like any other major racing series in the world. But pre-race needs to have some subjectivity. 169. 00andJoe posted: 06.22.2011 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know, along those lines, Carl would be a pretty nice fit marketing-wise for Home Depot, wouldn't he? Hmmm. 170. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.22.2011 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous 164: Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Darlington 2007, illegal rear wing modifiation, docked 100 driver/owner points, team fined 100K. How about Dover 2005? Hendrick put unapproved, but not illegal, shocks in Jimmie Johnson's and Kyle Busch's cars. The team was fined 50K a car and lost 50 driver/owner points on each, but the penalty was later rescinded. 171. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.22.2011 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another thought: How about Las Vegas 2005, where (same year even) Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch's (again) 1st and 2nd place cars were (I think) an inch and a half two short. Both cars were penalized 50 driver/owner points and fined 50K, but those penalties were also rescinded. A little favoritism, maybe NASCAR hoping to end Roush's title dominance of the last couple of years? 172. cjs3872 posted: 06.22.2011 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) IglooRacer, I agree that the former #25 team has been cursed since the demise of tim Richmond (I call it the "Curse of Tim Richmond"), but it has been very competitve at times since. Ken Schrader was, for several years, as competitve as anyone else, but just couldn't finish the deal. Ricky Craven was heading for big things in that car, but suffered two serious head injuries, and was released in 1998. Wally Dallenbach wasn't very good in that car, but did have occasional good runs. In 2000, there were times that Jerry Nadeau was the fastest of the Hendrick drivers when he was in that car, and his win in the 2000 season finale at Atlanta seemed to break the curse associated with that car. But it returned in 2001 when Nadeau's front row qualifying time was disallowed due to aero infractions found in post-qualifying inspection and his crew chief was suspended the first month of the season as a result. Then Nadeau seemed headed to a repeat victory at Atlanta when he ran out of gas on the final lap (like Dale Earnhardt, Jr. did in this year's Coca-Cola 600 for, effectively the same team), handing the win to Bobby Labonte. Nadeau was released early in 2002, and seemed headed for victory at Sonoma for Petty Enterprises when, on the next to last lap, broke a transmission, handing the victory to Ricky Rudd, the last of his career. A sad irony to the HMS #25 curse occurred in the spring race at Richmond in 2003. Nadeau was nearly fatally injured in a Saturday pracutce crash. His replacement, Joe Nemechek won that race. (Ironically, he won in Nadeau's old car at MB2 Motorsports at Kansas the following year in a driving finish with Rudd.) Then Brian Vickers was named to replace Nemechek, and scored one win, a controversial win at Talladega in 2006, when he hit Jimmie Johnson, causing him to spin into leader Dale Earnhardt, Jr., causing both to spin, and handing Vickers his only win with HMS. (He had already anounced his move to Team Red Bull/Red Bull Racing.) Casey Mears was named to replace Vickers, and he won the Coca-Cola 600 on the same weekend where his uncle Rick triumphed in the Indianapolis 500 a record-tying four times. But Mears was moved out of the #25 car and put into the #5 car, while the #25 itself was shelved when Dale Earnhardt, Jr. arrived. But unfortunately, while the #25 itself left, it's horrid luck didn't, leaving Earnhardt to struggle with through worst years of his career. 173. cjs3872 posted: 06.22.2011 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (#162), I've mentioned it before on this comments page, but there was also an incident at Talladega in about 2003 or '04 where Rusty Wallace's team was busted for a pre-qualifying rules infraction and was hit with a points penalty. And that's the first case I know of where a points penalty was assessed for a pre-race or a pre-qualifying infraction that was spotted by the officials. 174. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.22.2011 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They didn't show up to the track with those. Oil pans for the heck ofit. They brought them because they INTENDED TO RACE THEM. Thanks to everyone for pointing out NASCAR's hypocrisy. Nico, you are on to something. They went easy on Hendrick until they started dominating. Now they are being easy on JGR. Too bad they can't do something to level the playing field in terms of mental toughness. Until they figure that out, it will be JJs show for a while. 175. hyperacti posted: 06.22.2011 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth absolutely drove all-out at the end in a last ditch effort to catch the 11 but it wasn't enough, he almost lost it coming out of 4 & to the flag 176. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.22.2011 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano was rushed even more blatantly than Casey Atwood was. People talk all the time about how Casey was rushed in too young, and he was. But at least he had a couple years worth of Busch Series experience before moving into Cup. Joey had a grand total of 23 combined starts between the Cup, NW and Truck Series before he ran his first full Cup season. I know JGR was already preparing him to take over the #20 eventually, but Tony Stewart left early and JGR basically had no choice but to put Joey in the seat. They could have did what Roger Penske did with David Stremme, and hire someone else to hold the ride until Joey was ready but that usually stunts team momentum so it's understandable that they didn't want to do that. I guarantee you Home Depot is not happy with the overall results of the past couple of years. 177. Anonymous posted: 06.23.2011 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Thanks to everyone for pointing out NASCAR's hypocrisy." So I guess you gave up on trying to find an identical infraction that resulted in a different penalty then. Never thought the mighty Dale$rFranForever would give up so easily. "Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Darlington 2007, illegal rear wing modifiation, docked 100 driver/owner points, team fined 100K." Like the other guy said, NASCAR treats illegally modified existing parts differently. "How about Dover 2005? Hendrick put unapproved, but not illegal, shocks in Jimmie Johnson's and Kyle Busch's cars. The team was fined 50K a car and lost 50 driver/owner points on each, but the penalty was later rescinded." I could look up the circumstances of that one, but if it was rescinded I don't think it really matters. "Another thought: How about Las Vegas 2005, where (same year even) Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch's (again) 1st and 2nd place cars were (I think) an inch and a half two short." I think NASCAR has been pretty consistent in penalizing cars that have aerodynamic infractions with points penalties, like Busch at Pocono. 178. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 06.23.2011 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, you guys are making me realize just how often Johnson has been penalized over the years. Oh well, still have 5 trophies that say, "I don't give a s**t". 179. cjs3872 posted: 06.23.2011 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (#174), that is why I call what the Gibbs' teams got caught doing an obvious attempt to cheat, and they should have been docked points due to previous precedent, as well as the $50,000 per crew chief. I did forget to mention that, not only were Jimmy Makar and all three crew chiefs given probation for the remainder of the year, but so were all three car chiefs. 180. Bobbas Labonto posted: 06.23.2011 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe the Gibbs team brought the Obviously illegal parts to distract Nascar from the real advantage gainer? They did take 1st and 3rd after all. 181. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.23.2011 - 7:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Weren't fines easier to understand when the amount of the fine was the same number of thousand of dollars as the number of points docked? 182. cjs3872 posted: 06.23.2011 - 9:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #180, the parts themselves were not illegal, but the fact that they were so heavy (2-3x the normal weight for that particaular part, I've heard) was what was the tip-off that they were attempting to cheat. The reason they attempted to use the heavier oil pans, was not only weight distribution, but also to make the rest of the car itself lighter by whatever the difference between the weight of the oversized oil pans and and the weight of a regular-sized oil pan would be. They were, in effect, trying to run a car that was about 20 lbs. too light and trying to make up the difference with the oversized oil pans. That particular trick had been tried many times in the past in many different ways. (Remember the stories about how Gary Nelson would find a way to jettison a heavy piece of loose weight to make the car lighter?) 183. 18fan posted: 06.23.2011 - 11:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darrell Waltrip one time stuck a huge piece of metal that was really heavy in his car for inspection that looked like a radio, but it was so much heavier than the regular radio that the car was very light. I think Gary Nelson had something to do with that one. 184. cjs3872 posted: 06.23.2011 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, Nelson would have, if he was with DiGard at the time, because Nelson was also there at that time, although Buddy Parrott was the crew chief, I believe. (And Parrott was also a slick customer. Remember the oil cooler opening on the left front that he had sealed with a small plate with Petty's car number when he was Richard Petty's crew chief in the 1984 Daytona 500?) 185. Smokefan05 posted: 06.23.2011 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Man, you guys are making me realize just how often Johnson has been penalized over the years. Oh well, still have 5 trophies that say, "I don't give a s**t"." If i had it my way, JJs CC wouldn't be in NASCAR right now, he'd be in ARCA sweeping floors for Frank Kimmel. "I think NASCAR has been pretty consistent in penalizing cars that have aerodynamic infractions with points penalties, like Busch at Pocono." Fandom says "throw the book at them because i hate them so much." I honestly have something else to say, but its staying with me. 186. 18fan posted: 06.23.2011 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Buddy Parrott was the crew chief when Darrell was at DiGard and Gary Nelson was a member of the crew. DiGard wanted Nelson to be Darrell's crew chief when they hired Parrott, but Darrell thought he looked too much like a hippie and said, "He ain't working on my car." Nelson tapped into the NASCAR frequency and listened to the tower's description of the final lap of the 1979 Daytona 500 and later that year chained the front end of Darrell's car after Bobby Allison wrecked him at North Wilkesboro to the truck that DiGard hauled their trailer with and almost ran over people in the infield to attempt to fix the front end. 187. 00andJoe posted: 06.23.2011 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #182 - I seem to recall shenanigans with DW's car having buckshot loaded into the frame rails, too, that would be 'released' once the car was out on the track to lighten it... 188. JG24FanForever posted: 06.23.2011 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) remember 1995 being a big year for cheating? Ray Evernham fined $60,000 at the 600 for an unapproved hub(that actually ruined Jeff Gordon's care early in the race) Ricky Rudd was fined $50,000 grand for having hydraulic pump at Talladega Junior Johnson was fined $45,000(this was the first to be more than Petty's fine from the fall Charlotte event of 1983)at Daytona for an illegal manifold. Michael Waltrip was fined $10,000 at Michigan for punching Lake speed twice.(Eli Gold joked "that's five grand a punch if you're counting") 189. cjs3872 posted: 06.23.2011 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, DiGard's history with cheating went back even before Buddy Parrott was the crew chief. If anyone remembers the nitrous oxide scandal during the time trials from the 1976 Daytona 500, DiGard was right in the middle of that. Their crew chief then was a man named Mario Rossi, who had owned the car that Bobby Allison drove in 1969 and 1970, as well as being the man that campaigned the only winged car in the 1971 Daytona 500. Dick Brooks drove that car, and finished seventh after crashing with Pete Hamilton racing for the lead about midway through that race, despite being handicapped with a 305 cubic inch engine while his competitors had 429 cubic inch engines. Rossi was always one to try to find a way around the rules, instead of complying with them. 190. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.24.2011 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) While we're on the subject of Darrell Waltrip and cheating, wasn't there a cheating occurence with the Junior Johnson team he was with involving fuel mileage at one of the bigger tracks? Someone once told me that while the front runners were all pitting, DW stayed out and won the race even though the commentators were saying he was going to have to pit. They said they didn't remember exactly what year and what track it was. 191. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.24.2011 - 7:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCRandPenskeGuy: You might mean the 1989 Daytona 500 with Hendrick. How about Junior Johnson, Darrell Waltrip, and the 1985 Winston, the car with the "sweet potato rods." Clutched the engine as he took the checkered flag so that NASCAR couldn't inspect it. Neil Bonnett: "He clutched it! He clutched it!" I've only read about this, though. 192. Larry posted: 06.24.2011 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Never thought the mighty Dale$rFranForever would give up so easily." Ha! "Dale$rFranForever". That is hilarious. 193. KY1WING posted: 06.24.2011 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Think the only way you can compare drivers over the years is to look at where they ranked in wins over the years that made up their careers. When you look at that this way, here is the breakdown Driver Start End Rank L Petty* 1949 1964 1 C Yarb'rgh* 1957 1988 4 R Petty* 1958 1992 1 D Pearson* 1960 1986 2 B Allison* 1961 1988 3 D Earnhardt* 1975 2001 2 D Waltrip* 1976 2000 1 B Elliott 1976 2011 7 R Wallace 1980 2005 4 M Martin 1981 2011 7 J Gordon 1992 2011 1 T Stewart 1999 2011 3 J Johnson 2001 2011 1 Ky Busch 2004 2011 4 C Edwards 2004 2011 5 D Hamlin 2005 2011 5 * HOF So of the retired drivers, the Pettys and Waltrip are the only drivers who went out on top. Depending on how long JG drives, chances are he will join that group as it looks like JJ will at some point. 194. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.25.2011 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, you could be correct about that. I was talking about this to a cashier at Wal-Mart who watched NASCAR in the 80's era; he might have just gotten the teams mixed up. As for the 1985 Winston, that is only speculation in the minds of most fans. It could indeed be true since it happened late enough on the last lap to where he'd still win, but only teams in NASCAR would know for sure. 195. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.25.2011 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, I should correct my post. I actually meant to say "it happened right after he took the checkers and was guaranteed the win" regarding the 1985 Winston. 196. cjs3872 posted: 06.25.2011 - 10:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, did anyone notice that the attendance for this race dropped by an estimated 7,000, or about 7.4% from the attendance for this race last year? They say that the attendance for the Brickyard may struggle to reach 100,000, but the race at Michigan, and most other races for that matter, including the Daytona 500, have been seeing a drop in attendance over last year and the year before. (For instance, the attendance for this year's Daytona 500, while slightly higher than the 175,000 in 2010, is still lower than in years past. That event drew 190,000 in 2008, 185,000 in 2007, 200,000 or more from 2003-'06, with a high of 205,000 in 2004. In fact, the last time the event drew less than 180,000, except for 2010, was back in 2000, when it drew 175,000 people. The last time it drew fewer people than that was back in 1997, when it drew 160,000 people, then a record for attendance for the Daytona 500.) So attendance is down across the board, dramatically so in some cases. What the sport needs is a new drawing card, and I don't see one in the next three to five years, but I could be wrong about that. 197. Scott B posted: 06.25.2011 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica Patrick will be the new drawing card, until the novelty wears off and the reality sets in. 198. Feldman posted: 06.26.2011 - 5:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The next marketing tool will be good be good for buisness Nascar be better after resurgence 199. Eric posted: 06.26.2011 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think new drivers could save the Bickyard 400. After tire gate happened in 2008, attendance for Nascar races there dipped down at alarming rates. That tire fiasco caused a lot of fans not to attend another race their. What also played a factor of Indy's attendance going down is the amount of Nascar race dates the Midwest has. Kansas having a 2nd cup date didn't help Indy or Kentucky having their first cup date this year hasn't helped either. Based on what I heard, Michigan hasn't really recovered economically yet. Michigan isn't the only Midwestern State that has some type of economic problems in terms of employment or state budget. I think that played role for Michigan International Speedway. The attendance for Michigan International Speedway actually improved by 5,000 fans from 2009 to 2010 concerning racing 15. 2010 for Michigan's first cup is the first time that Attendance went up after starting to go down in 2008. The truth is Nascar fans from Canada is preventing the Attendance from looking even worse. 200. Eric posted: 06.26.2011 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What needs to happen is some the tracks that have 2 cup track dates need to go to one. Some of the Nascar tracks were built in terms of people in stands a first place. Bristol is a different animal why attendance went down. The track was turned into a mini Michigan International Speedway and fans didn't like the change despite the drivers wanted the change. 201. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owners' standings by best finishing team car: 1. Roush, 622 2. Gibbs, 606 3. Hendrick, 603 4. Childress, 597 5. Penske, 526 6. Stewart-Haas, 512 7. Petty, 489 8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 469 9. Red Bull, 465 10. Michael Waltrip, 425 11. JTG-Daughtery, 326 12. Furniture Row, 322 13. Front Row, 272 14. Phoenix, 256 15. Baldwin, 231 16. FAS Lane, 223 17. Germain, 219 18. Wood Brothers, 201 19. Robby Gordon, 178 20. TRG, 176 21. Gunselman, 109 22. Whitney, 69 23. HP, 45 24. NEMCO, 43 25. Inception, 27 26. Rusty Wallace, 24 27. Leavine, 14 28. Falk, 11 29. K-Automotive, 9 202. cjs3872 posted: 06.27.2011 - 11:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the changes at Bristol in 2007 made it an actual racetrack, instead of a place for glorified demolition derbies, which gives you an indication what many fans that went there previously and don't go there went to those events for. But the fact that attendance for the Daytona 500 has dropped more than 10% over the last five to seven years is the most alarming thing. As for attendance for the Brickyard dropping. well, the 2008 tire fiasco is part of it, but also the Chase is responsible, as a lot of the top teams really aren't putting their best foot forward in trying to win either this race or the road course events. Also, the move of the Brickyard in 2001 to Sunday didn't help matters, either. But for the attendance problems at Michigan, I think a lot of people would like to see the return of the drafting-style the typified Michigan races through the 1980s, since drafting just doesn't mean anything anymore. I also think that the 400-mile races go by too fast, which is why I think one of the Michigan races, as well as the one remaining race at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana, CA should be 500-mile races, although one race each at Pocono, PA and Loudon, NH should be dropped from the circuit. 203. the_man posted: 06.29.2011 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 20th place finish: ??Our UPS Ford was a top-10 car, but after our first trip into the pits, the No. 88 and No. 51 got together and ran us up the race track and we had to come back in and fix our fender. We went back out on track in the high 30s, drove back towards the front, and we had the speed, but we didn't catch the cautions right. We tried short-pitting to get back on the lead lap and it just didn't work out. I think we had a top 10 or top-five car, we could just never seem to get up there. It's just very disappointing. Everything that could go wrong, did, and we'll just have to regroup." 204. 00andJoe posted: 07.13.2011 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #46 sponsor: Red Line Oil (same for all races with "Red Line" listed as sponsor). 205. 00andJoe posted: 08.28.2011 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #30 "sponsor": Inception Motorsports 206. Talon64 posted: 08.29.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chad Johnston was actually the CC for the #56 MWR Toyota with Martin Truex Jr. in this race, having replaced Pat Tryson the race prior. 207. Daniel posted: 05.21.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #37 Tony Raines Out using fastest 43: #36 Dave Blaney 208. Robert Nelson posted: 07.12.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points Carl Edwards 146 Kyle Busch 144 Kevin Harvick 116 Matt Kenseth 112 (5th driver to get 100 points) 209. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 04.24.2014 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Withdrew 50 T.J. Bell Toyota Green Smoke Joseph Falk 210. Braindead Zombie posted: 02.21.2016 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the ONLY race since 2008 that was won by the driver who finished 2nd in points the year before. 211. Anonymous posted: 10.12.2018 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Update: Brian Keselowski - Melling Engine Parts 212. Rich posted: 12.15.2020 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Adam Alexander, Wally Dallenbach and Kyle Petty were the commentators. Matt Yocum, Marty Snider, Ralph Sheheen and Chris Neville were the pit road reporters. Larry McReynolds was the in-race analyst. Lindsay Czarniak was the studio host. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: