|| *Comments on the 2011 Toyota / Save Mart 350:* View the most recent comment <#241> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Dodge posted: 06.24.2011 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ll must be freezing over. After qualifying, Carl Edwards and Roush have announced that Carl WILL NOT make the flight to Wisconsin for the Nationwide race as previously planned. Billy Johnson, who was the fastest in the first practice will drive the Nationwide car which now gets confusing there as one team pulled out their backup car and had hired Billy Johnson to drive that. 2. Dodge posted: 06.24.2011 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ll must be freezing over Should be "Hell must be freezing over. 3. Schroeder51 posted: 06.24.2011 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First time all season we will have a 100% chance a non-Cup series driver will win a NNS race. 4. Schroeder51 posted: 06.24.2011 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, first time since...when was the last time there wasn't a Cup regular in NNS? Wasn't it 2003 at Pikes Peak or something? 5. 18fan posted: 06.24.2011 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This pole came totally out of left field. I bet Joey doesn't lead the first lap and doesn't post a top 10. 6. irony posted: 06.25.2011 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The SPEED agenda ... tape delay one of the most exciting qualifying sessions of the year in favor of Barrett Jackson + spoil the results of the tape delayed IndyCar qualifying. 7. joey2448 posted: 06.25.2011 - 5:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I believe the last time a Busch race had no current Cup drivers in the field was at Nashville in 2005 because the race was postponed to Sunday (due to rain), in which there was a Cup race at Pocono. But yea the last time a Busch race ran on the scheduled time/day that had no cuppers I believe was in 2003 at Pikes Peak... 8. joey2448 posted: 06.25.2011 - 5:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, for those who remember this race last year, look who's starting 13th and 14th... 9. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.25.2011 - 8:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Doesn't take much talent to drive a NASCAR on a road course anymore. 10. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.25.2011 - 8:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with 18fan. Joey2448, Michael McDowell is running both road courses this weekend. Cup with Phil Parsons S&P, and NNS with Gibbs 18 car. 11. 18fan posted: 06.25.2011 - 10:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey2448, and the two guys who tore up about half the field start 13th and 15th. 12. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.25.2011 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ZOMG! No Carl or Brad at Elkhart Lake? I might actually watch that one. Joey needed this pole, and he also needs a good showing. As I posted on his driver page, this is a crucial time for him. I don't have high expectations for him in this race, but then again I never dreamed he'd win the pole. Overall, I'm looking forward to this race. Sears Point is the new Bristol. 13. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.25.2011 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the 1990s or 80s, Tony Ave and Andy Pilgrim would have been n the top 10 just because skill was such a plus at these road courses. now inthe last two years Kahne and Johnson have won?! Where is the road racing talent (Stewart, Martin, Gordon) hiding? Oval talent is now good enough for road racing. 14. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.25.2011 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Joey Logano held off David Gilliland in a battle of NASCAR Sprint Cup drivers with NASCAR K&N Pro Series West roots to win the Thunder Valley Casino Resort 200 Saturday." http://hometracks.nascar.com/Logano_Celebrates_In_Sonoma What a joke. Some Cup level guys are so talentless that they need to run kiddy league road races even though both Loghead and Gilliland have raced here multiple times. Gilliland has been in the Cup since 06, but he has run the Sonoma West race almost every year since 2007. Loghead has raced here thrice before. Do they need to pick on development drivers to hone their skills even years after making the big time? Or are they in development series to develop the confidence to run a Cup race competently? 15. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.25.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://hometracks.nascar.com/Logano_Celebrates_In_Sonoma Do Loghead and Gilliland need to run development series to develop the confidence to run with the big boys. Really, they have both been in the Cup for the years and they have to pick on 16-year-olds just to be able to win a race? 16. irony posted: 06.26.2011 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gibbs can't stand it if he doesn't win at least one race a week in lower series with his Cup drivers. Billy Ballew in trucks used to be just as bad ... gotta have a Cup or NW driver every week for the easy win. As far as Kahne, he just has a good feel for Infineon. He's not a threat at the Glen. Johnson has worked hard to improve at roadies. 17. Feldman posted: 06.26.2011 - 5:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I knew Joey Logano was the best Gibbs driver,he just needed the right car to prove it. anyone else think Paul Menard is reaching his peak? 18. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) irony: 2009 and 2010are Kahnes's only finishes at Sonoma better than 23rd. 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a serious note about Logano being in the K&N race, this is his third season in Cup in top rate equipment. Why are they still having to "build his confidence"? I think this is the time for JGR to swallow their pride and pull Joey back to NWide full time and let him develop properly. Don't just throw him to the side like Evernham did to Atwood. This K&N race, I think, will actually be a bad thing for Joey. Once again, he was in a race where his equipment was light years ahead of his competition's. Just like the old days where he earned the "Sliced Bread" nickname. And that has been a problem for him in Cup. He never learned how to struggle. He never learned how to race when 20 other poeple have the same quality of equipment as him. That race won't help that. "Gibbs can't stand it if he doesn't win at least one race a week in lower series with his Cup drivers." Exactly, and it is sickening. 20. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.26.2011 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I've said it before, I'll say it again: Michael McDowell has no place in NASCAR. There is no excuse for that shit. 21. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.26.2011 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I understand Vickers frustration with Tony, but I don't like that he tried to hook him head on into the wall. If you must retaliate, back him into the tires. That is what wound up happening anyways, but it could have been worse. Brad has only caused one wreck so far, compared to about 35 last year. He over reacted to being taken 3 wide like he did at Loudon last year, clipping the outside car. 22. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.26.2011 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Domination and payback. Congrats to Kurt and the #22 team for flat out kicking everyone's ass in this one. They started 11th, drove through the field like nobody else could, and had smooth sailing the rest of the way, Kurt never bobbled once. Congrats to Steve Addington for the good pit strategy (this is his 2nd win here). And congrats to the whole Penske organization. They are really on top of it now (Brad finished 10th? Here? After last year? They must have snuck Rusty back in the Blue Deuce for this one). I just hope they learn a lesson for the future. When the driver says it isn't working, pay attention and fix it. Don't let it progress to an embarrassing in race radio tirade that forced them to fix it. Payback. Tony and Vickers take turns intentionally wrecking each other, admit it afterwards, and seem OK with it. Tony's explanation was ridiculous, and Brian's method of payback was wrong. Logano decides he's had enough of Robby Gordon's blocking and turns him. JPM dumps Kahne for no reason by sliding through the grass into him, tried to do the same to Brad, but Brad moved up and gave him room only for JPM to run him into the grass for no reason, so Brad just dumped him, leading to this hilarious exchange on TV, Kyle: "I'm not saying what Brad did was right...", Wally: "I am!". Not a good weekend for former F1 champs. Better race for TNT. They did a good job showing where the action was and keeping track of drivers with notable days. I don't like that Kyle used the "bonehead" term to describe JPM dumping Kasey. Even those it was dumb, and Kasey totally face metled him in his interview afterwards talking about JPM's NASCAR career, I think that crosses a line. Also, did you catch the shots Kyle and Wally took at their own network towards the end when talking about next week's side by side commercial coverage, they said something to the effect of "you mean we actually get to talk next week!" sarcastically. A reference to the ridiculous amount of commercials? Good race even with the domination up front. 23. Nick posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty tame first 2/3rds of the race as per past road course events, IMHO. Gordon comes out of nowhere and ends up nearly running down the 22 in the closing laps, at times running over a second faster. However, after running most of the day in the 15-25th area, I can't complain with a 2nd. Also, glad to see that one year after he drove like he forgot how to, Gordon had a clean car after this race sans some rear bumper damage. Right or wrong, I'm glad that Vickers and Stewie were able to get out and say what they did with no Nascar intervention. They wrecked each other and both seem to convey that next week will be business as usual. Is it me or has the past 2-3 years been a crap shoot as to who the dominant car will be on the road courses? We've had Ambrose, Kahne, Busch (both), Montoya, etc. For the longest time it was easier to tell who would be up front, recently, it changes each time out. Now on to Daytona and the 2 car tangos...exciting to watch but not really a race of skill/equipment but one of timing and the right partner. 24. Mike posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @DaleSrFan: They made it pretty clear that "we actually get to talk next week" was referring to the fact that Adam Alexander just won't shut the hell up. 25. IglooRacer posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love road courses I love boys have at it I've never been more fired up to go to the Glen ever Congrats Kurt busch, he's had the most topsy turvy season so far,a few weeks ago I actually crossed him off as a championship contender because he was running so bad. Now he's running really good so he may be in the thick of things come chase time. 26. BON GORDON posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon gets the comeback of the race award. He takes a piece of junk 22nd place car and finishes second. He was over a second faster than the leader by the end. Great call on the pit box to get him the track position at the end as well. Good job BIG DADDY!!!!! 27. Rusty posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So pumped over this win. Kurt has always been good at road courses but hasn't put it all together for a win until now. After Kansas, I was just waiting for something to go wrong and cost him the win. I thought for sure Montoya was going to bring out a caution or something. But it all went well and he finally got the win. With 10 races left until the Chase begins, Kurt has a nice advantage over 11th place with a win in his back pocket incase something goes wrong. I feel pretty comfortable about that, hopefully the 22 team keeps the momentum into Daytona. Kurt has also had that RP win avoid him despite being one of the best at it, maybe he can scratch that off too. Also, props to David Gilliland. 12th place finish is very nice for that team. 28. Schroeder51 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon turns what looks like another abysmal 15th-20th place race and winds up 2nd. Dale Jr. went out early after damage from the initial Vickers/Stewart skirmish put a hole in his radiator and damaged the engine, causing him to momentarily catch fire under his car. Tony Stewart earns his first career road course DNF. 29. Smokefan05 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony made a complete ass of himself today, he used Brian as a bull dozer. Brian did the right thing and didn't take anyone else with himself or Tony. That is payback 101. Sliced Brad decides he has had enough and pushes Robby into the tires, ruining whatever good finish he would have gotten. JPM made an even bigger ass of himself today with the "bull in a china shop" mentality. Thank goodness Brad didn't put up with it and gave JPM some of his medicane. 2 straight weeks for Jr. that haven't been what he has been doing all season and that is finishing races in the top 15. Haters rejoice. A great race with alot of action. TNT did a good job of covering it but Adam Alexander wouldn't shut up. I want Ralph Sheheen in the booth please. 30. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #77 owner: Robby Gordon 31. The Ost posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't like to be negative, but the driving standards shown in this race were embarrassing. The cars were torn up, if they drove like that on the ovals they'd be crying and complaining. Which is it, you can bang into each other or not? And as for the blocking into the last corner, that's pretty sad. On the last lap one might feel it would be justified, yet if it did happen on the last lap you can bet the driver would be penalised. Road course driving should be where you attempt clean passing moves. I realise these cars are not suited to this sort of track but it was quite cringe-worthy to watch at some points. Kurt Busch drove well and stayed out of trouble and got the result he deserved. My 2¢ 32. Schroeder51 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #28-You aren't kidding about Alexander not shutting up-both Kyle and Wally were mentioning that they weren't getting to talk enough. 33. Eric posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt is now tied with Ricky Rudd on the all time cup win list with 23th career cup wins. Kurt and Rudd are tied 26th of all time for cup wins. This was a great race by Kurt Busch. I hope how well Brad and Carl did today gives them message not to do Nationwide events that are not on the same track. 34. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "@DaleSrFan: They made it pretty clear that "we actually get to talk next week" was referring to the fact that Adam Alexander just won't shut the hell up." Oh. Now that I think about it, he does talk too much. Thanks for clearing that up. 35. New 14&88 Fan posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only a matter of time before Kurt got a win, congrats to him and the whole Penske Team on a great race.Also it was good to see JPM taken down a peg after dumping Kahne and trying to do the same to Brad even after Brad gave him room. Apparently Brain Vickers didn't learn that one of the objectives of payback is not to take yourself out in the process. 36. Smokefan05 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The cars were torn up," People love wrecks and beating and banging. A race isn't a "race" without that stuff. 37. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Blaney was running 12th with about 12 laps to go when he got spun. Shame. A number of start-and-park teams run the whole race, good for them. The 66 and 46 even get lead-lap finishes, with the 81(!) only one lap down. (On that subject, McDowell should have picked a better place to whack the 47 but don't see how it was any different otherwise than the other "payback" episodes.) Speaking of the 81: am I the only person who thinks that Roush's cleverness in running a fifth team that really isn't a fifth team is something NASCAR should see if they can close the rules loophole on? (Not sure how they'd do it - "no, we bought this car from them, honest!" - but still.) Good to see David Gilliland not only have a good run but actually manage to get a good finish out of it. I was sure his "no bad luck = no luck" streak was continuing when he got pushed into the turn 11 tires but somehow he managed to keep it going, even giving JPM no quarter. Good run by Regan, too. 38. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #7 sponsor: Speed Energy/GNC #77 sponsor: Speed Energy/GNC (as an aside on sponor listings, is there any way we can have, say, the 29 just as the "Rheem Chevrolet" instead of the "RheemTankless.com Chevrolet"? These ".com" sponsor names are getting silly (for example the "BlackCatFireworks.com Ford". Why not just the Black Cat Fireworks Ford?).) 39. JP88 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow what a race...even though Kurt dominated this race was wild... First of all JPM and Vickers are both idiots. JPM had to have hit about 15 drivers today and Kasey really ripped JPM, Kasey has had enough with his bad luck. And then Brian Vickers...yes Stewart got into him but that was a product of the track. As Vickers said when Kyle went off track and came back on he had to go in front of Tony to avoid him, bad deal. I had no problem with Vickers doing what he did because I knew what it was coming but he's an idiot for almost turning Tony head on into the pit wall and HE TOOK HIMSELF OUT TOO Jr's avoidance finally caught up and he was involved in the aforementioned wreck causing him to blow up and catch fire. Of course even though Jr. has been running great this year and has finished every race before this one, he's had a lot of bad luck and this was another case because this was the worst week to have trouble as only 2 cars started and parked relagating Jr. to 41st, 3 pts. If that happened any other week he would of been like 36th. Obviously I'm a Jr. fan (ala my username) but I'm think of the worse and if he gets in an accident next week, after already wrecking in the 500 I'm gonna be pissed 40. cjs3872 posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A typical and an atypical race at the same time. First, there was the utter dominace by Kurt Busch, who led two-thirds of the laps and was dominant on restarts. (His drag racing experiences seem to be coming through.) Also, the Columbian Bull (Montoya) lived up to his name again by ruinig the days of Kyle Busch (he flat ran him off the track, which may have been the precursor of the Stewart-Vickers-McMurray-Earnhardt-Newman crash seconds later), then ran over and through Kasey Kahne when he couldn't pass him fair and square (catch Kasey's comments after the race regarding Montoya not being able to win races in cars that McMurray won in last year, which is very unlike Kahne, normally one of the most even-tempered guys in the garage area). Then Brad Keselowski finally gave Montoya a piece of his own medicine (unfortunatley taking Kyle Busch with him). Then there was the saga of Martin Truex, Jr., who it seemed that every time he got in a position to challenge, he got either punted or run off the track, whether it was Allmendinger, Hamlin, or whoever else got into him. Still, he managed a finish this time, in eighth place. The incident between Michael McDowell and Bobby Labonte looked like a racing accident to me. As Labonte passed McDowell, McDowell got loose, and in trying to catch his car, got Labonte's left rear corner with right front, which turned Labonte right into the wall. Meanwhile, it looks like the old Gordon may well be back, which may be bad news for his competition, as he turned a pitiful day into a second-place finish, his 280th top 5, just one behind Dale Earnhardt, Sr. for the modern record (and fourth all-time). Carl Edwards had the exact same type of race, never contending until the end, when he lost second with just over a lap to go. Logan proved that his pole was no fluke, leading the first five laps, then rallying back to finish sixth, the highest finish by a Toyota, just two positions ahead of Truex. Neither Montoya or Ambrose had the race anyone expected them to have (other than running over people, which both have a major tendency to). Ambrose did salvage a fifth, while Montoya got what he deserved, a mid-field finish (Ironically BEHIND everyone he ran over, through, and off the track). Other than Edwards' third-place finish, this was a nightmare weekend for Roush Racing, as none of his other cars finished better than 14th in this race, although we really didn't expect very much from David Ragan, and he didn't disappoint. Roush had a bad race at Road america, with Edwards' sub failing to challenge, Trevor Bayne falling out, effectively due to his conservativeness (had he caught up to the field instead of trying to save fuel, none of what happened to him later would likely have occurred, and he may have even challenged for the win, the way the race played out), and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. had a bad start, but did manage an eighth-place result. I never thought that Jack Roush, of all people, would ever be glad to get to Daytona, but he definately is. And then there's the dominance by Penske Racing the last month, with four straight poles (snapped this week by Joey Logano) and now two wins (one by each driver) and a second, and two dominant runs by Kurt Busch. (Though, if a caution had come out late, you wonder if Busch would have won the way Jeff Gordon was coming.) What has happened most of this season brought out the down side of not having any partners to share information with, but when a team like Penske, who is basically the lone wolf with Dodge, gets an advantage like he seems to have gotten, with no other Dodge team with which to share the info, Penske may keep his advantage for longer than he would otherwise. 41. OrangeToyota posted: 06.26.2011 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #5 Hey 18 fan, I thnk Logano leaded a lap and finished in the top 10, huh? Pretty good race overall, Kurt was the fastest all day and finish strong. I think Tony doesn't like Vickers anymore =p 42. Cooper posted: 06.26.2011 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thumbs Up to Joey. The media, fans and myself have ragged on him the last couple of weeks and I'll give credit where credit is due. Good Weekend for him. 43. Cooper posted: 06.26.2011 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper's interesting fact of the race: --The five cautions in this race is the lowest amount at Infineon since 2002. You don't have to look this up because I already did. 44. Rusty posted: 06.26.2011 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Odd coincidence. Last week Kurt Busch started 1st and finished 11th, this week he starts 11th and finishes 1st. 45. Anonymous posted: 06.26.2011 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Busch Brothers now have more cup wins than the Labonte Brothers do combined. The Labonte Brothers have 43 career cup wins combined and the Busch Brothers now have 44 career cup wins. 46. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.26.2011 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race was sickeningly boring. That's why Robin Miller calls them the "turds on wheels" and "crapwagons." I'm a JG fan, so I enjoyed the last 5 laps, but for the first time in my life, I wanted a GWCF. 47. Mark O. posted: 06.26.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @#38 I'm pretty sure that RR just uses the information given to them by NASCAR. If "rheemtankless.com" is what is on their entry form, that's what NASCAR lists it at. 48. Rusty posted: 06.26.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another stat I just discovered that is very odd. In the 16 Cup races this season, the guy who led the most laps has only one FOUR times. Jeff Gordon at Phoenix, Matt Kenseth at Texas, Kyle Busch at Richmond and Kurt Busch at Sonoma. That is pretty interesting. Just goes to show you, best car doesn't always win. 49. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.26.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So much for the 43 best drivers in the world, more than half the field looked like they were 17 year old boy racers. Tony Stewart is an idiot and Brad Keselowski would do well to learn when it's best to just let things go. Twice today he forced the issue whilst being passed, which resulted in another car being turned around. Montoya was asking for it, but Allmendinger and Kenseth were innocent bystanders. Kurt Busch schooled the field. I'm a bit surprised that he and BK were the only cars on the two stop strategy. I guess that's what happens when you base your game plan on the likelihood of there being a caution. And onto cautions: NASCAR shows once again that they have absolutely no idea on how to run a road course race. Their handling of on track situations was appalling. That, combined with giving drivers free reign to crash and bash through the field like drunk drivers makes for quite an embarrassing spectacle, which is a real shame because NASCAR road racing can be a hell of a lot of fun when it's done right. Which unfortunately isn't very often. 50. hyperacti posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was a very entertaining race. Nascar has become very good to watch at plate tracks and road courses lately. 51. Cooper posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sonoma is one of the hardest road courses in the world. Turn 11 is probably the toughest turn in racing. You go from 170MPH through the "Esses", then you have to slam the brakes to make a 180 degree turn. Oh yeah and the car weighs 3500 pounds. That's where most of the action takes place. Turn 11. It was actually a pretty clean race. While JPM raced very hard today it was not surprising for me. This was JPM's only chance to get into the chase. He probably needed to sweep the Road Course races, so he was trying head over heels to get to the front. Which is what NASCAR wants. I can honestly say, NASCAR is the most entertaining sport in North American culture today. No basketball/football/baseball/hockey game can have two and a half hours of non-stop action. I wish some of the fans would come back, because the racing this year has been the best I've seen since '05. 52. Daniel posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Was Nemechek actually attempting the full race this week? Going over half the distance doesn't seem like an S&P. 53. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #47: Oh, I'm sure. (It's one reason sometimes we have to correct them with what's *actually* on the cars!) Doesn't make it any less silly, though. ;) #52: He was - the car was sponsored. He did go 7 laps down early for some reason, but stayed in that position for the remainder of his run before dropping out. The 60 (funding the 13) and 77 (funding the 7) were the only S&Ps this week. (For some reasion, that Germain car is the only S&Per that really bugs me...) 54. 18fan posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On one caution, NASCAR waited until all cars that had spun had left the hairpin and then threw the caution. Inconsistency in NASCAR's responsiveness to incidents on track is a major problem. I guess I was wrong on my predictions on Joey. He definitely surprised me. I was so happy Montoya finished terribly in this race. Kasey Kahne's comments on him were awesome and Juan's comments about Brad were uncalled for. Carl Edwards' race today was a championship caliber performance by the whole 99 team. 55. 18fan posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #53, It probably bugs you since it has been fully sponsored all year and has still S&Ps every week it actually makes the field. 56. cjs3872 posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #51, as for how Juan Montoya raced today, there's a difference between being aggressive and being a "bull in a china shop", and I would describe Montoya's rqacing today as the latter, as he ran over half the field, but when he apparently raced Keselowski too hard, he chose the wrong person to bully, because, as drivers such as Hamlin, Kyle Busch, and Carl Edwards, among others, can attest, Keselowski will hit back. Montoya probably will never learn that there are drivers that you can take extra liberties with and there are those that will hit back at you. That's what Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was so great at. He knew who he could push the envelope with as well as who he couldn't becuase if he messed with those drivers, even he would pay the price. But Montoya has never seemed to respect the vetran drivers, no matter what series he's in. Whether when he was in IndyCars, he wrecked Michael Andretti in a practice session for one of his first races (and Michael lit into him for it), or some of his F1 run-ins. And remember how he ran over teammate Scott Pruett, one of the most respected road racers of our time when they were supposedly teammates in Mexico City in 2007, for which Pruett blasted him in an interview. and two years later, he showed a lack of respect for another roundly respected driver Mark Martin (at New Hampshire)? Not to mention his run-ins with Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Ryan Newman among others. At least other drivers who were bullies on the track, like Earnhardt, respected their competitors, unlike Montoya. Dale, Sr. would be rolling over in his grave if he knew about the lack of respect some of these drivers have for each other, because, for him, that was priority #1. He also demanded that you respect him, and if you did, he gave you the same treatment. 57. cjs3872 posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, you are correct about Montoya and his lack of respect, as you will see in post #56. He may be the most disrespectful driver I've seen in my over 20 years of watching the sport. 58. cjs3872 posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way, Robby Gordon's 18th-place finish means that he's locked into the Firecracker 400 at Daytona next week and that Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne will have to qualify on time in his #21 car. By the way, I predict that Bayne will fail to qualify for at least one of the eight races he has remaining on his schedule. (Indy, perhaps?) Robby is three points to the good in the car owners' standings as far as that's concerned, and will be much further ahead come time for the race at Indy, the next one that the #21 car is scheduled to run after Daytona. 59. 00andJoe posted: 06.26.2011 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owners' standings by best finishing team car: 1. Roush, 663 2. Gibbs, 645 -. Hendrick, 645 4. Childress, 638 5. Penske, 574 6. Stewart-Haas, 531 7. Petty, 528 8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 498 9. Red Bull, 489 10. Michael Waltrip, 461 11. Furniture Row, 351 12. JTG-Daughtery, 332 13. Front Row, 305 14. Phoenix, 272 15. Baldwin, 244 16. FAS Lane, 235 17. Germain, 229 18. Robby Gordon, 204 19. Wood Brothers, 201 20. TRG, 185 21. Gunselman, 126 22. Whitney, 87 23. HP, 59 24. NEMCO, 47 25. Inception, 27 26. Rusty Wallace, 24 27. Leavine, 14 28. Falk, 11 29. K-Automotive, 9 ----------- One thing about Kasey giving Juan a piece of his mind. He's not winning in cars McMurray won in last year, yes. But what is McMurray doing in those cars this year? Hmm. 60. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He may be the most disrespectful driver I've seen in my over 20 years of watching the sport." You may be right. I feel no remorse for JPM being taken out on purpose by Brad considering the disrespect he has shown in the past regarding incidents similar to these, the fact that he hit Brad first, and also the fact that he spun out Kahne too, but when the same happened to him he implied that Brad didn't know how to race the road courses. Hey Juan, if you can't take it out don't dish it bro. Ironically enough, Kahne said the same about JPM in his interview. I don't know what the deal was with the McDowell/Labonte incident, but that was TOTALLY uncalled for! Looked to me like McDowell hooked Bobby for no reason. I have lost respect for McDowell (although I didn't have that much to begin with). Joey Logano surprisingly ran a good race. I thought he'd finish around 15th-23rd today, but he led the first five laps and went on to finish in the top 10. He also had another incident with Robby Gordon which resulted in Robby having to wait for the field to pass before he could get going again. Congrats to Kurt on an ass kicking. His team had a strategy, and Kurt didn't make any mistakes. Brad got a top 10 as well, and probably would have finished better if he didn't overreact to Turn 11 and spin out Allmendinger earlier, damaging his front a little. 61. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And one more thing: Tony and Vickers looked silly out there playing bumper cars. Also, it'd probably be in Brian's best interest not to say it wasn't intentional when he lined up RIGHT ON Tony's rear quarter panel. 62. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sonoma is one of the hardest road courses in the world. Turn 11 is probably the toughest turn in racing." You need to watch more road racing. I mean, seriously? 63. potatosalad48 posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch simply put a whalin' on the field in this race. 64. Cooper posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 62. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.26.11 - 11:13 pm "You need to watch more road racing. I mean, seriously?" No Comment. 65. cjs3872 posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe 00andJoe, but McMurray won at three showcase tracks last year, Daytona, Indy, and Charlotte, but Juan can't seem to get the job done on those very tracks, as every time it seems that he's on his way to a breakthrough, he stubs his toe, or completely loses his cool. Remember the last two Brickyard 400s when Montoya had the best car. In 2009, he threw that race away by needlessly speeding on pit road in TWO sections, and in 2010 he lost his chance at victory when his crew chief made a bad pit call, then Montoya compounded the problem by wrecking trying to pass Dale Earnhardt, Jr., I believe. Meanwhile, as Montoya kept blowing up (not his car, but rather his cool), McMurray kept his cool and won the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400, not to mention the fall race in Charlotte in Ganassi's equipment, mainly because he has a talent that Montoya doesn't have, and that's the ability to keep his cool under pressure. I think that's where Kasey may have been getting at when he criticized Montoya for not winning in the same equipment that McMurray was winning BIG in last year. (And remember, Kasey Kahne is another driver that Montoya has had a few run-ins with, especially in 2009.) 66. Dodge posted: 06.26.2011 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know what the deal was with the McDowell/Labonte incident, but that was TOTALLY uncalled for! Looked to me like McDowell hooked Bobby for no reason. I have lost respect for McDowell (although I didn't have that much to begin with). Wally and Kyle were great the whole race, but I loved when one of them made the comment, "Maybe he was taking his frustrations out from yesterday on the 47." As for Montoya, I say ban that piece of crap for good. He does nothing for NASCAR. He's been in NASCAR full-time now for 4 and a half years and has 2 road course wins and ZERO oval track wins. I don't care that he almost won Indy 2 years in a row. 67. Rusty posted: 06.27.2011 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I don't think NASCAR is going to ban Montoya because of his lack of oval wins. They would've banned Robby Gordon a long time ago. I honestly think Montoya is here to stay in NASCAR. I don't see anyone taking him back in F1, and there just isn't any money in running IndyCars. What else is he going to do? I think he'll end up with an oval win eventually, but he'll never be the world class driver he's known as in NASCAR. But to be fair, it is kinda tough to be great driving for Ganassi. 68. TLarson83 posted: 06.27.2011 - 1:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Very entertaining. Whoever said Sonoma is the new Bristol was dead-on. Sheesh, lots of tempers flaring today: Brian Vickers vs. Tony Stewart Robby Gordon vs. Joey Logano Kasey Kahne vs. Juan Montoya Juan Montoya vs. Brad Keselowski Denny Hamlin vs. AJ Allmendinger Jeff Burton vs. Boris Said -Kurt Busch and the 22-team DOMINATED, Kurt ran that track to perfection. 69. IglooRacer posted: 06.27.2011 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too me alot of beating and banging means drivers are actually having to race hard, and do whatever it takes to get ahead. I live around a short track where that kind of racing happens every Saturday so I'm a fan of that kind of racing. 70. Anonymous85 posted: 06.27.2011 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think its safe to say that this race resembled a street fight. 71. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.2011 - 3:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No Comment." Alright, that was a pretty bold assumption I posted. So I'll rephrase. "Sonoma is one of the hardest road courses in the world. Turn 11 is probably the toughest turn in racing." Sonoma is a pretty bland and basic road course. It isn't very technical and there are no corners that stand out as being particularly difficult. Turn 11 is actually very basic - the braking zone is very wide and the corner itself has plenty of room, meaning that there really isn't any consequences for getting it wrong. I'm also pretty sure that you're way off by saying the cars reach 170mph in the approach to the braking zone. 72. irony posted: 06.27.2011 - 4:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sonoma has a nice flow, good elevation change, and a scary blind up hill corner (turn 1). Turn 10 at Sonoma is a very difficult high speed corner that you're gonna lose a lot of time in if you try to take it easy, and you don't even have time to catch your breath before you go into that turn as you come up on it so fast out of 9. The up hill right hander just before the short chute is very difficult to master - I've never figured it out in over a decade of sim racing. As for turn 11 having no consequences, I don't even know what to say to that - it's a hair pin with an outside wall. 73. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The turn one and two uphill run is the most interesting part of the track, but as for it being one of the hardest road courses in the world? Not even close. Turn 11 is two slow, two wide and too open to be too much of a difficult corner. The approach to the braking zone isn't fast enough to make going straight on any real risk and the corner itself is far too wide to punish sloppiness. Turn 11 is known as a passing zone - not a high risk part of the track. In fact, the most difficult part of the track IMO is the aforementioned run up the hill through turn one, but the turn eleven hairpin is, in the grand scheme of things, quite tame. 74. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan: Looks like our prediction that Logano would finish outside the top 10 without leading a lap failed. He led several laps and finished 6th. 75. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me revenge is one thing, but coming out laps down to wreck someone else like Vickers did to Stewart or Edwards did to Keselowski is unacceptable. Tony should wait til he is down and Vickers is up and wreck him. 76. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) myothercarisanmM535i: They do resemble alcoholics on the road courses, don't they? I have to turn the steering wheel more to switch highway lanes than these talentless (fill in cuss word) have to turn the wheel to make it through the turn 11 hairpin; plus, they have power steering to aid them. Yet they still wreck more on this track then they did in 1990s with crude power steering, and they had to crank the wheel just to move the car 6 inches. 77. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since no one else said this, Andy Pilgrim was the oldest driver in the field. He made his Cup debut at age 54. 78. cjs3872 posted: 06.27.2011 - 8:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually NicoRosbergFan (#75), when Vickers deliberately wrecked Stewart, he was still on the same lap with the leaders, running as high as third just a couple of laps earlier before dropping back to get into a position to wreck Stewart. Please gets your facts correct. When the two collided, resulting in the back of Stewart's car being on top of the tire barrier, they were in either sixth and seventh or seventh and eighth places, I believe (though Vickers was due for a pit stop). 79. Karn Evil 9 posted: 06.27.2011 - 8:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael McDowell, for once, didn't S&P in the Phil Parksons ride. Great run for David Gilliland. 80. Cooper posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 73. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.11 - 6:34 am "The turn one and two uphill run is the most interesting part of the track, but as for it being one of the hardest road courses in the world? Not even close." The reason I say this, is because every year Turn 11 is always a war zone. When drivers like Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch have difficulty handling it, I'm assuming it's more difficult then you think. It's not like F1 where you run the whole race by yourself. Every lap they have someone in their windshield or rear view mirror. Heck they don't even let the Indycar series run Turn 11. I still stick with my statement. Definately in the 80th percentile as far as difficulty goes. 81. IglooRacer posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nicorosbergfan- I think it's the level of competition thats causing these wrecks. There's about 30 cars capable of winning, back In the 90's it was about half that. You also had in full time drivers like Montoya, Ambrose and Robby gordon, whose best chance to win a race is at a road course so they are gonna be pushing it too. Had no idea Andy Pilgrim was that old, good on him. As for the Stewart incident, too me it looked like he rode on the back of vickers right into turn 11. Didn't let off early or anything ( by why should you, it's a race right?) just how I saw it. 82. Dodge posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I don't think NASCAR is going to ban Montoya because of his lack of oval wins. They would've banned Robby Gordon a long time ago. I honestly think Montoya is here to stay in NASCAR. I don't see anyone taking him back in F1, and there just isn't any money in running IndyCars. What else is he going to do? I think he'll end up with an oval win eventually, but he'll never be the world class driver he's known as in NASCAR. But to be fair, it is kinda tough to be great driving for Ganassi. I didn't mean to say ban him because of his lack of oval track wins. What I meant is that since he has had run-ins with the majority of the field, it I think would be in NASCAR's best interest to get rid of him. The guy does not care about anybody but himself. I bet if he wrecked someone and the guy got injured, he would say that that driver deserved it. Just my opinion. 83. Cooper posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 81. IglooRacer posted: 06.27.11 - 10:03 am "Nicorosbergfan- I think it's the level of competition thats causing these wrecks. There's about 30 cars capable of winning, back In the 90's it was about half that. You also had in full time drivers like Montoya, Ambrose and Robby gordon, whose best chance to win a race is at a road course so they are gonna be pushing it too." Totally correct. It's just vicious out there. And at these road courses with the differing level of ability, they just go insane. 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but when he apparently raced Keselowski too hard, he chose the wrong person to bully, because, as drivers such as Hamlin, Kyle Busch, and Carl Edwards, among others, can attest, Keselowski will hit back. Montoya probably will never learn that there are drivers that you can take extra liberties with and there are those that will hit back at you. That's what Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was so great at. He knew who he could push the envelope with as well as who he couldn't becuase if he messed with those drivers, even he would pay the price." You are absolutely right. If you noticed, Dale didn't mess with Rusty much. And the one time he did, he wound up with a water bottle upside his head. I love how Rusty described it. He said he tried to get Dale's attention by yelling at him and Dale either didn't hear him or was ignoring him (probably the latter) so he flung a water bottle at him. As Rusty said "That got his attention!". God I miss watching those two race against each other. It was truly a case of two guys each bringing out the best in each other. We just haven't seen that since. Nowadays everyone takes things so personally. They think anytime somebody doesn't roll over for them and decides to race them for position, they are "disrespecting" them. They have been coddled for so long by their hangers on because of all the money they bring in, they really think they are God's gift to racing and everyone else should just move over for them under any circumstance and be happy to be racing on the same track as them (most obvious example: Kyle Busch). And only God knows what the deal with JPM is. He runs through people like it is nothing, but somebody does something to him and you half expect him to file a police report against that driver. He just does not have the mindset to be in NASCAR. His driving talent is undeniable, but he puts himself in so many bad situations and has a complete inability to keep cool it is ridiculous. One last Dale/Rusty thought (elaborating on what cjs said): Would Dale have done to Rusty what he did to Terry Labonte at Bristol in '99? Of course not. Because Rusty would have wrecked him in the next 10 consecutive races, earning NASCAR's first ever $1 million fine, which he would pay in pennies like he did when he got fined for cussing on TV at Martinsville for accurately pointing out NASCAR's call was bullshit. Another classic Rusty story. That was back when driver's actually had peronalities. What would Kyle Busch do if somebody placed an open can of sardines in his car on a hot day like Dale did to Rusty before the Southern 500 one year? Or if somebody took Smoke's steering wheel right before they rolled off the grid like Rusty did to Dale in retaliation the next week? And what would any modern driver do if somebody did like Dale used to do to Rudd when everyone wore open face helmets and bubble goggles, he would grab Ricky's goggles, take a Sharpie, and draw eyeballs on them, forcing his team to scramble to find a spare set of goggles before the race? Fun days. I miss them. 85. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.2011 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) HA! Carl's comments after the race: "From post Sonoma transcript: CARL EDWARDS: (I've never) gone out and tried to get somebody back.? " Lol. That is just hilarious. I think the frontstretch walls at Atlanta and Gateway would beg to differ. Seriously, I love the way Carl and the media (which loves him for reasons unclear to me) are just trying to act like last year never happened. Do they really think we are that stupid? That any of us still buy into the "Carl is a great guy" bullshit? His talent is undeniable, and he could very well be Cup Champ at some point, but can we stop this stupid charade already? He is a borderline sociopath. That is a fact. He is neither a good guy nor a clean racer. He is a hell of a race car driver, and that is about it. He isn't even a popular driver. Even in the Mid West. So let's just call it like it is: He is a great driver, potentially a legend in waiting, that very few fans have any connection to and may or may not eat census taker's livers with fava beans and a nice chianti in his spare time. And here is Brad K's Twitter response: "Lmao Which face said that?" Ha! 86. Cooper posted: 06.27.2011 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 85. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.11 - 11:09 am HA! Carl's comments after the race: "From post Sonoma transcript: CARL EDWARDS: (I've never) gone out and tried to get somebody back.? If in fact Carl did say that, then he is a two-faced liar. Straight Up. Last year at Gateway he admitted to it in victory lane. He also admitted to it at Atlanta. Why is he changing his story, a year later? That's rediculous. "Lmao Which face said that?" BK is the man. 87. Matthew Sullivan posted: 06.27.2011 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #85 That just shows what a lot of us have known all along. He's two faced, one looks like a human, the other a horse. I actually went to the race yesterday and it was obvious that Kurt Busch was the class of the field. Stewart was running comparable lap times to him, but Busch pitted earlier on the last stop and gained a bunch of track position. Martin Truex was very impressive yesterday as well. I was very surprised that Ambrose was never in a fight for the lead. After last year's race, I thought he would have been a definite contender. As usual at Sears Point, Junior has to pay the price for someone else's stupidity. He was good on fresh tires but his car fell off after a few laps. Who's to say how good he could have done had he been able to finish. Gordon (Jeff) looked like JUNK for most of the race so for him to finish second was a huge accomplishment. As far as the Stewart/Vickers incident, if Tony didn't like Vickers blocking him, he should have found a better place to turn him. The retaliation by Vickers is further proof as to why Brian Vickers has never lived up to his potential. Not only did he wreck Stewart, he wrecked himself and blew any chances of getting a good finish. He'd better hope that someone buys the Red Bull team because that's his only chance of sticking around in the Cup series. 88. Anonymous posted: 06.27.2011 - 11:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They have been coddled for so long by their hangers on because of all the money they bring in, they really think they are God's gift to racing and everyone else should just move over for them under any circumstance and be happy to be racing on the same track as them (most obvious example: Kyle Busch)." "That any of us still buy into the "Carl is a great guy" bullshit? His talent is undeniable, and he could very well be Cup Champ at some point, but can we stop this stupid charade already? He is a borderline sociopath. That is a fact. He is neither a good guy nor a clean racer. He is a hell of a race car driver, and that is about it. He isn't even a popular driver. Even in the Mid West. So let's just call it like it is: He is a great driver, potentially a legend in waiting, that very few fans have any connection to and may or may not eat census taker's livers with fava beans and a nice chianti in his spare time." Awww look, Dale$rFranForever is playing "Mr. Driver Psychiatrist" again. There he goes, imagining in his head that he knows all of the drivers innermost feelings. He's using his action figures as driver stand-ins and everything! He must be really creative. It's so cute when he plays dress up like this and uses his imagination. Maybe someday when he gets to middle school, he can finally start growing up and stop playing pretend though, I'd hate for the more mentally developed children to make fun of him. 89. Scott B posted: 06.27.2011 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Notes: The #66 car was practiced and qualified by David Mayhew so McDowell could run the Nationwide event. #37 car was scheduled to be driven by Tomi Drissi, who was not approved by NASCAR to run the event. Chris Cook, who had 1 previous Cup start at Sonoma and a handful of DNQ's, was a late replacement and finished 27th on the lead lap. Tony Ave was the lone DNQ, subbing in the #38 usually driven by Travis Kvapil. 90. Anonymous posted: 06.27.2011 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 85. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.11 - 11:09 am HA! Carl's comments after the race: "From post Sonoma transcript: CARL EDWARDS: (I've never) gone out and tried to get somebody back.? A media member who was there said Carl made that comment entirely in jest. 91. 00andJoe posted: 06.27.2011 - 12:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It always bugs me how the fandom says "we need more characters! We need people who aren't afraid to rub fenders and tear up people and dish out payback and say what they mean and be Bad Boys!" And then they get them, and the fandom turns on them like a pack of rabid badgers crying "he's dirty! he's a sociopath!! ban him!!!". So, then, how about let's ban Juan, and ban Carl, and ban Kyle, and we'll run a field of forty-three Jimmie Johnsons: gentlemen every one of them, all so clean they squeak, and each with the public personality of a wet paper bag (although I might be offendng wet paper bags there). Sure, that'll be good for the sport... 92. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.27.2011 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have no problem with drivers who rub fenders and race hard for position. However, there's a difference between rubbing fenders and flat out dumping someone in a situation that could turn out bad like Edwards did twice last year. Thankfully the wrecks McDowell and Vickers caused yesterday didn't turn out as bad, but they could have. 93. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After a smashup like that I didn't think Vickers could be on the lead lap, but then again so was Robby Gordon. Either way, intentional wrecking is still wrong and you take someone else's life in your own hands. Search Gwyn Staley's death; it was sickening. 94. Cooper posted: 06.27.2011 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 90. Anonymous posted: 06.27.11 - 12:04 pm "A media member who was there said Carl made that comment entirely in jest." Had a feeling there was a back story to that comment. Good thing I didn't say anything irrational. 95. cjs3872 posted: 06.27.2011 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was just revealed that the reason Kahne was dropping back into the hands of Montoya (and the group of cars he was leading) before Montoya spun him out was a problem with his track bar. That makes two Toyotas that had problems with track bars in the event. Denny Hamlin had one break earlier that cost him 10 laps in the garage area (although Hamlin blames contact with A.J. Allmendinger, which I highly doubt was the reason for his track bar failure). 96. Talon64 posted: 06.27.2011 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch won his 1st race of 2011 and the 23rd of his career, tying him with Ricky Rudd for 26th all time and 14th in the modern era; since 2001 he's 4th in wins behind only Jimmie Johnson (54), Jeff Gordon (32) and Tony Stewart (30). His 10th consecutive season with a win ties him with Jimmie Johnson for 2nd longest among active drivers; Tony Stewart is tops with 12 in a row but has yet to win in 2011. Kurt gets his first career road course win in 21 attempts, 11 at Infineon. This was his first top 10 in the last 5 races there, but his 4th top 5 overall. Jeff Gordon's 60th career runner-up finish ties him with Mark Martin for 5th all time; it's his 144th top 2 finish in 633 career starts, meaning Jeff finishes 1st or 2nd every 4.4 races. He has 3 top 5's in the last 4 races overall (6.0 avg fin), moving him up from 13th to 9th in points. Jeff extended his record for top 5's at Infineon to 12 and top 10's to 15, while his average finish (8.7) is 2nd only to Dale Earnhardt (8.6). It's his 6th consecutive top 10 at Infineon. Carl Edwards picked up his series-leading 9th top 5 and 12th top 10 of the season. 3rd is his best finish and 1st top 5 in 7 Infineon starts (3 top 10's, 16.6 average finish), and ties his best finish on the road courses in Cup (3rd at Watkins Glen in 2009). Clint Bowyer tied his best career road course finish with his third 4th place finish in 6 Infineon starts. It's just his 3rd top 5 of the season and first in 8 races. Marcos Ambrose picked up his 3rd top 5 in 16 races this season; he only has 2 top 5's in all of 2010. It's his 3rd straight top 10 at Infineon, including 2 top 5's. Joey Logano won his 2nd career Cup pole, making him the youngest to ever win a pole at a Cup road course race, and got his first top 10 at a road course in Cup in 5 attempts (21.4 avg fin). Jimmie Johnson gets his 3rd straight top 10 at Infineon after only having 2 in his first 7 starts there (14.7 avg fin overall). Martin Truex Jr. gets his 2nd top 10 in his first 3 races with Chad Johnston as his crew chief. It's his first top 10 in 6 Infineon starts (21.7 avg fin) and his 3rd in 11 road course starts overall. Kevin Harvick gets his 4th top 10 in the last 6 races, going from 5th to 2nd in points in that span. It's the first time he's had back-to-back top 10's at Infineon, getting just his 4th top 10 in 11 starts there (16.1 avg fin). But it's his 9th top 10 in 21 road course starts overall. After only having 2 top 10's all of last season, Brad Keselowski picks up his 3rd of 2011, all coming in the last 7 races (13.4 avg fin). It's his first top 10 in 3 Cup road course starts (scored most points on road courses in Nationwide last season). David Gilliland has 3 top 15 finishes this season (1 top 5, 2 top 10's) but all have come on the "atypical" tracks like plate tracks and road courses. His average finish in the rest of the races is 30.4. Regan Smith hadn't finished better than 30th in his first 4 career road course starts before finishing 16th in this race. JPM finishes outside of the top 10 at Infineon for the first time in 4 starts, but deservedly so. Tony Stewart fails to finish a road course race for the first time in 25 starts; prior to that he had a 7.3 average finish in 24 starts, now it's up to 8.6 (from 9.2 to 11.5 at Infineon). 97. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.2011 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as characters, somewhere between Hannibal Lecter (Carl) and Mr Goody Two Shoes (JJ) there is a vast area of Dale's, Rusty's, Tim Richmond's, and Schrader's. Everyone nowadays is either boring as hell, immature as hell, or probably hiding 37 bodies in their crawlspace. 98. Larry posted: 06.27.2011 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol. That is just hilarious. I think the frontstretch walls at Atlanta and Gateway would beg to differ. Seriously, I love the way Carl and the media (which loves him for reasons unclear to me) are just trying to act like last year never happened. Do they really think we are that stupid?" I do think you are stupid, for believing that Carl Edwards was serious when he made that statement. That is some world-class dumb right there. But I know why you'd think it was true, because it helps you to believe all the wild conspiracies you have in your head about Edwards being sociopath capable of murder, or whatever retarded unprovable traits you want to attach to him this week. 99. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.27.2011 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) These guys all think they are the next Dale Sr. None of these guys is a scab on Earnahrdt Sr.'s rear. He had more talent then all of them combined. He knew how to wreck people in a way that wasn't obviously intentional, but he did so much you knew it was. The only who ever somewhat closely imitates that is Gordo, and he is nowhere what Dale Sr. had for skill (talent yes, skill no). What these punks who didn't race Dale Sr. don't realize was that his driving (albeit accidentally) killed him, and I don't want to see that again. 100. Rusty posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Supposedly Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick shook hands after the race. Looks pretty awkward to me lol. http://aol.sportingnews.com/nascar/story/2011-06-27/busch-harvick-rivalry-takes-a-bizarre-twist-with-a-handshake 101. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.27.2011 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whether he was serious or not, he and the media are still trying to act like he is a good guy when he isn't. That doesn't change. They refer to him as a" popular driver" when he is anything but. My point stands. 102. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.2011 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The reason I say this, is because every year Turn 11 is always a war zone. When drivers like Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch have difficulty handling it, I'm assuming it's more difficult then you think. It's not like F1 where you run the whole race by yourself. Every lap they have someone in their windshield or rear view mirror. Heck they don't even let the Indycar series run Turn 11. I still stick with my statement. Definately in the 80th percentile as far as difficulty goes." I'm not an F1 fan, so don't bother making that comparison. By your definition, the only thing that makes turn 11 a difficult corner are the dropkicks who can't put together a clean entry and exit into the corner without leaning on someone. That's not a corner being difficult, that's another driver being useless. Take AJ Allmendinger and Matt Kenseth, for example. Both spun at turn 11, because Brad Keselowski doesn't know when to give up fighting a pass. Not because of the difficulty of the corner. And really, what are basing this "in the 80th percentile as far as difficulty" off? Seeing as the hairpin seems to be the talking point, here's 5 that I believe are more difficult - all in my country alone. 5) Hidden Valley - Turn 1 - After a long and wide front stretch, the cars brake from 270kph down to 80kph as the corner continues in on itself beyond 180*. Because of the width of the track, bravery is rewarded as time can be made up by driving the exit hard to prepare for the fast blast towards turn 3 and 4. 4) Adelaide - Turn 9 - A fast approach to the braking zone and a wide track makes for an excellent passing opportunity, although the corner itself reduces in width dramatically. The tight exit to the right hander is immediately followed by quick left that should only be taken single file - if you haven't been able to complete the pass at turn 9, you might find yourself in the wall at turn 10. 3) Symmonds Plains - Turn 3 - A fast and narrow straight leads to this incredibly tight left hander. Unusually, it actually has a slight level of banking to it, meaning that it is possible for cars to run side by side, although the track being as narrow as it is means that it's very easy to drop a wheel off - especially in the braking zone, which will fire you straight on into the kitty litter. 2) Lakeside - Turn 2. "The Carousel" - One of the toughest corners in the country, The Carousel is a blind, double apex right hander. There are four elevations changes in this one corner alone; the braking approach is up hill and then the road falls off at the first apex, climbing again towards the second apex and then flattening out dramatically on exit. The most treacherous part is the exit to the second apex. The first part of the corner is on-camber, meaning you've got plenty of grip and can carry loads of speed through it, but the road falls away quite severely in the second part, making the second apex a tight off camber corner that will send your car into the inside wall as the back steps out. 1) Bathurst - Turn 4. "The Cutting" - A blind up hill left hander with one of the greatest elevation changes in all of motorsport. The approach is blind, the car is already rotating under brakes and the sudden elevation change can violently unsettle the car. Surrounded by concrete walls and rock, a simple brake lock-up will result in the destruction of a race car. 103. Cooper posted: 06.27.2011 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "101. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.11 - 7:09 pm" I can honestly say I only know two of the five corners you listed. Can I ask what series/cars run these circuits? Alot of the difficulty is based on the type of racing and the size of the fields. I'm going to check out some of these turns because they do seem pretty tough. 104. Smiff_99 posted: 06.27.2011 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They're V8 Supercar venues. All are awesome tracks. 105. cjs3872 posted: 06.27.2011 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicorosbergFan (#99), please tell me that you're not serious about saying that Jeff Gordon is not as skilled as Dale Earnhardt, Sr. He has won more races on more different kinds of tracks than he has in fewer starts. Not only that, but having already passed the elder Earnhardt in number of wins, he's about to pass him in top 5 finishes (he's just one behind as I mentioned in post #40) in a more competitve era, and he's about to do it in about 40 fewer starts (or more than a full season quicker) than Earnhardt. Earnhardt's stats: 676 starts, 76 wins, 281 top 5s (currently the modern record and fourth all-time), and 428 top 10s (was the modern record until Mark Martin broke it in this year's Daytona 500). Gordon's stats: 633 starts, 84 wins (ties Darrell Waltrip's modern record as well as ties Waltrip for fourth all-time), 280 top 5s, and 384 top 10s. The only statistic in which Earnhardt outranks Gordon is in championships, and Gordon would be only one behind Earnhardt if not for the Chase, which has robbed him of two championships (2004, '07), otherwise he'd have six, one short of Earnhardt's and Richard Petty's record of seven. The above statistics are why I actually put Gordon ahead of Earnhardt on my greatest of all-time list. (I currently list Gordon third, with Earnhardt fourth. And Gordon might even move to second past Bobby Allison on my list with a few more victories.) Gordon is a master of all kinds of tracks, never winning on any one track more than seven times (like Allison, who also never won more than seven times at any one track), but has won five or more races on eight different tracks and four times on five others. Meanwhile, Earnhardt was a driver that, when he mastered a track, he held on to that dominance, with 37 of his 76 victories coming at just four tracks (10 at Talladega and 9 each at Darlington, Atlanta, and Bristol). That's nearly half of his entire victory total at such a small number of tracks. 106. myothercarisanM535i posted: 06.27.2011 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can honestly say I only know two of the five corners you listed. Can I ask what series/cars run these circuits? Alot of the difficulty is based on the type of racing and the size of the fields. I'm going to check out some of these turns because they do seem pretty tough." All are V8 Supercar tracks. It would unfair to make a comparison between a NASCAR event and say, a Formula Ford race. Hidden Valley: Aggressive driving on a late race restart causes chaos for the leaders at the first turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG3buXGzoRo Adelaide: An unforced error the turn 9 hairpin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia1dNNVYexw Symmons Plains: The hairpin plays a major role in what happens for the entire second half of this very short circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieZ0AA141qw And I know it's not the V8's, but here's a great battle at Symmons Plains from the old ATCC days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nuRgzaJ-q8 The Cutting: Go in too hot and you'll back it into the wall before you've even thought about turning in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVE5_u-atZY The V8 Supercars stopped racing at Lakeside in the late 1990's, but the track reopened a few years ago. Its my local track and I've done some cruising and passenger laps but will be taking part in a track day there later in the year. I've looked around on the net and I can't really find any decent footage that would show just how tough that little track is - it's a deceptive little bugger. But I guess that's part of it's character. By the way, I'm not trolling you in any way. I come entirely from a road racing back ground and am very passionate about road racing, so whenever discussion about it comes up I'm always going to have something to say. I believe Watkins Glen is the better of the two tracks that the Sprint Cup currently visits and I honestly don't think that Sonoma is all that impressive. I'd love to have a drive around the Glen - especially the full circuit - but Sonoma would be much further down that list. 107. 00andJoe posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #103 - I thought he meant Robby Gordon. 108. 00andJoe posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) er, I meant 105. *shakes fist at number mistype!* 109. Smokefan05 posted: 06.27.2011 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can honestly say, NASCAR is the most entertaining sport in North American culture today. No basketball/football/baseball/hockey game can have two and a half hours of non-stop action. I wish some of the fans would come back, because the racing this year has been the best I've seen since '05." Hell has frozen over. I think i need to write this down. :-P "It always bugs me how the fandom says "we need more characters! We need people who aren't afraid to rub fenders and tear up people and dish out payback and say what they mean and be Bad Boys!" And then they get them, and the fandom turns on them like a pack of rabid badgers crying "he's dirty! he's a sociopath!! ban him!!!"." There is a word i'm look for, hy, he, hr, ha, hp, hn, hm. Oh it escapes at the moment. Robin Miller had a quote on WTE that i'll share with you all: "sometimes, racefans are too damn ignorent to understand what they are watching." Holds true. 110. martin5fan posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) that race at Road America was the best race this season because Edwards, Keselowski, Logano, Harvick, and mostly Kyle Busch wasn't in it If one of them was in it I know the would have won the pole won the race and led the most laps And that was a STUPID move Villeneuve did to Papis and Scott 111. irony posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robin Miller bashes the drivers, he bashes the fans, and what is he? A guy with a girl's name who calls race car drivers "mommas boys" while they're out risking their lives and he's standing in the pits with a mic and pen. 112. Jr88fan posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was stupid that stewart wrecked vickers because he was blocking isn't that what you are supposed to do. Stewart could push vickers into sombody else and it could have been evan worse. 113. potatosalad48 posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12th place marks David Gilliland's best finish that's not been on an RP track in 2011 114. BON GORDON posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicorosbergFan is a funny guy. Also funny how he uses Bobby Hamilton's quote about the scab thing. Anyway, I believe Jeff Gordon is just as good if not better than Dale Earnhardt. Yes Earnhardt has seven titles and all, but I would not be so fast to jump and say Earnhardt was better than Gordon. I will agree with Nicorosberg on one thing, Earnhardt's drivin killed him. I hate to say it but if I was Sterling Marlin Earnhardt's butt would've been in the wall sooner. Earnhardt was flat cutting off Marlin and I could not believe all the idiots that got mad at Marlin and gave him death threats. Yeah he was protecting the win for Waltrip but I don't care. You block me and that's fair game for me to give you the chrome bumper....sorry to the Earnhardt fans but thats how I feel about that. 115. JP88 posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #108 I was a Sr. fan and yeah Earnhardt did cause his crash, I was too young when it happened but for Marlin to be blamed is atrocious...hell fans even blamed Rusty Wallace because "he got Dale loose running up behind him." That's ridiculous to even think about. Ironically enough, this has been stated before, Earnhardt died doing something no one ever expected him to do and was to protect his son and Mikey driving his 2 cars. Earnhardt really had the car to win that race. Anyway when it comes Gordon vs Earnhardt, both guys are amazing. I really don't know how you can choose. The elite drivers are all close and its really up to opinion. That's just how it is with everything. 116. Smokefan05 posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Robin Miller bashes the drivers, he bashes the fans, and what is he? A guy with a girl's name who calls race car drivers "mommas boys" while they're out risking their lives and he's standing in the pits with a mic and pen." Well i do agree with you, but even people like Robin Miller can speak something that people are going to agree with. I agree don't with most of what RM says. Sometimes gets credit for what happens in Indycar that he shouldn't get credit for. He has a mail bag on SPEEDTV.com, he is very smart when he explain things to OW fans. For covering racing for as long as he has, he gets some leway with me. And he one of the very few media memebers i actually respect. Hell, even Jimmy Spencer who i don't agree with most of the time, will fire something out of his pie hole that i'll agree with. (which is a rare feat BTW) Now i could talk about those who are horrible at their jobs but that will take me years. 117. irony posted: 06.28.2011 - 3:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't help but get sucked into this every time. Earnhardt gave me the Senna/Schumacher vibe and Gordon just didn't. The "he becomes one with the car, he's tougher than the car, he can do things other people can't, he could run 10 laps without blinking if he had to" vibe. I thought for a while Gordon is the better driver while Earnhardt is the better racer. Then Jimmie comes along and out runs Gordon in his own equipment, which to me looks bad on Gordon. BTW why can we use stats to say Gordon is better than Earnhardt but we can't use stats to say Johnson's better than Gordon? 118. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.28.2011 - 6:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "cjs3872: I am a Jeff Gordon fan. I have never seen more natural talent in my life, but I think that Dale Earnahrdt was more able to outfox people on the track. All the numbers except titles say JG is better than Dale. JG would have more titles if it weren't for sabotaging old Hendrick giving Jeff and Mark crap cars. " Mark 19th on a road course! Get real! Ever since Jimmie won the 1st title, Hendrick has crapped on any driver on his team who threatened Jimmie in the title race. Notice how Mark went from best driver on the circuit to 0 wins overnight. Sounds fishy to me. 119. Matthew Sullivan posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Earnhardt's stats: 676 starts, 76 wins, 281 top 5s (currently the modern record and fourth all-time), and 428 top 10s (was the modern record until Mark Martin broke it in this year's Daytona 500). Gordon's stats: 633 starts, 84 wins (ties Darrell Waltrip's modern record as well as ties Waltrip for fourth all-time), 280 top 5s, and 384 top 10s." That still doesn't indicate that Gordon is a better driver than Earnhardt. Gordon jumped into championship caliber equipment right off the bat in his career. Dale helped make the #2 car a championship contender. Without him, there is no way the #2 car would have won a championship so quickly. Even quicker was how that team was turned to garbage. When he moved to Bud Moore's team, they were not the caliber they once were which history has proven evident by the numerous parts failures. Then when he moved to Childress' team, they weren't serious title contenders until '86 and again, that team would not have been a title contender without Earnhardt behind the wheel. Earnhardt's 1980 title is what makes him the greatest in NASCAR history in my view. He was able to beat Yarborough, Petty, Parsons, Waltrip and Allison when they were still great drivers with a team of a bunch of nobodys based out of California in only his second season. 120. RaceFanX posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Former Corvette Le Mans ace Andy Pilgrim gets to make his Cup debut and he finishes on the leap lap in the normally S&P #46 Chevrolet. I was very surprised that Tomy Drissi wasn't approved by NASCAR to run this race. He's not some hack with money, he's the 2009 SCCA Trans-Am champion and has plenty of road course experience including the Nationwide series. Even with Drissi gone the 20th Century Fox sponsorship he brought to the #37 team remained for the upcoming reboot of the reboot of "Planet of the Apes." 121. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Irony, there may be a day in the future in which we will be able to say that Johnson is better than Gordon, but that day may be as much as a decade off. One of the things that, in my opinion, go against Johnson and the other current drivers is the fact that the championship doesn't mean anywhere nera as much as it once did, because, to win the championship today, you don't have to be a good all-around driver, since half the races in the Chase, if not slightly more, are on, basically the same kind of track, so all-around skill doesn't count for as much. Why do you think drivers like Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, and others struggle at the road courses andtricky ovals like Darlington, Indy, and Pocono (even though Jeff won there a couple of weeks ago)? Because to win the championship, you just don't have do well on those kinds of tracks, so many of the top teams don't put any emphasis on performing on those particular tracks (yes, even Indy). As for Mark struggling on tracks like Pocono and the road courses (where he used to run extremely well), I don't think it's the team or the equipment. It's just that Mark is losing the one battle that no one can win, and it began to show last year. That's the battle against father time. Also, Mark didn't run on those tracks for a couple of years, and that didn't helo him, either. Earnhardt did put fear in the minds of the other drivers, because they knew he would wreck them, while Gordon has never put that fear in the other's minds. Gordon would just beat you fair and square for a great majority of his victories. There are exceptions (Does Chicago 2006 ring a bell?), but Gordon has lost about 8 to 10 victories in his career by not knocking others out of the way. And, unlike Earnhardt vs. Terry Labonte at Bristol in races for the win, where Labonte got wrecked both times (August 1995 and '99), when Jeff moved Rusty out of the way under similar circumstances (April '97 and Aug. 2002), Rusty never lost control, and lost just the one position. Rusty was upset, but all he lost was the victory, he never lost the car. The fear Jeff would put into his competitors was the question of whether or not, when he was running in the top 5 in the mid-stages of the race, he was running as hard as he could, which is just what appeared to be going on at Pocono. Gordon weas running just as hard as he wanted and needed to, not as hard as he could. When he ran as hard as he could, Kurt Busch, who had the dominant car in the latter stages of the race, couldn't catch him. and had there been a caution at near the end of Sunday's race at Sonoma, you wonder if Gordon wouldn't have beaten Busch again. And by the way, Johnson's stats, aside from head-to-head battles, are, at the same point in his career, nowhere near Gordon's, though, in Johnson's defense, it is much more competitve that it was, even when Gordon was dominating. On a side note, as Earnhardt took the mantle from Waltrip, Gordon took the mantle from Earnhardt, and Johnson took the mantle from Gordon, who will take the mantle from Johnson? As of now, I don't see anybody, certainly among the current crop of drivers, and the best hopes for the future seem to be Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., Cole Whitt, Justin Allgaier, and Austin Dillon, in that order. And the next best hope after that seems to be a ways away, unless Trevor Bayne gets his confidence back. If he does, he may join Stenhouse the other future drivers I mentioned. But even so, none of those drivers figure to be contenders in Cup for at least four to six years, if nothing negative happens to any of them. 122. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look, I take nothing from Gordon. He is one of the best drivers AND racers ever. He is a living legend whose longevity combined with his unmatched run of pure modern domination in the mid to late 90s makes him one of the best ever by any measure. But when comparing him to Earnhardt, we can't discount the obvious advantages Gordon has had in his career. The early years: Jeff was groomed to be a race car driver from the time he was 4 years old. His stepdad dedicated his life to giving Jeff every opportunity to get all the experience he could possibly get. Nothing wrong with that, but Dale's dad, although a Southeastern short track legend, wouldn't help Dale until he got his high school diploma. In a move that would haunt Dale for the rest of his life, he dropped out of school despite Ralph pleading with him not to because Dale couldn't wait any longer to begin racing, and for about a year and a half Ralph would hardly talk to him, let alone help him with racing. By the time Jeff graduated high school, he already had a ton of experience racing at the highest level of sprint/midget car racing, while Dale was just getting started on the local dirt tracks at the same age. When Dale and Ralph finally reconnected, Dale was in his early 20s. Ralph, realizing Dale was gonna become a racer or break himself trying, finally began helping him with cars and driving. Then, just as he was starting to gain traction, Ralph died when Dale was just 22. This left him in limbo for a while. His Mom gave Dale all of Ralph's race cars, but he didn't have Ralph's guidance. He had to go it alone. It wasn't long before he destroyed all of Ralph's cars. It would be 5 years before Dale got his big Winston Cup shot. BTW, when Jeff turned 22, he was already 2/3 of the way through his rookie season. The big break: Rick Hendrick saw Jeff win his first Busch race at age 20 early in 1992 and decided he needed to put Jeff on his super team. Although HMS hadn't won the championship yet and were destined to go through a disappointing year that season just like every other Chevy team (that was the year 2 time defending champ Dale finished 12th in points with one lucky win), they had been around since '84 and established themselves as a major threat. Geoff Bodine won 3 races for them in year 1, in '86 lovable loose cannon Tim Richmond won 7 races and finished 3rd in points while Bodine was gift wrapped the Daytona 500 because Richard Childress decided Dale didn't need to pit for much needed gas on the last caution. The next two years were a bit of a struggle as they were dealt with the sudden loss of Tim Richmond as a driver and big hire Darrell Waltrip struggled to find chemistry with Waddell and his new "dream team". But in 1989, with DW and long time crew chief Jeff Hammond finally in sync with HMS, he got his long awaited Daytona 500 win and 5 other races, contended for the title until a late season slump knocked them back to 4th. 1990 was a bit of a disaster with them struggling with the new Lumina (only Dale and RCR ever really figured it out) and DW's injury. But in 1991 they finished 2nd in points with Rudd (although it was one of the lamest points battles ever) and Schrader getting 2 of his 4 career wins. So Jeff definitely was in elite equipment. At just 21 years old. Dale, on the other hand, made only a few scattered Winston Cup starts from '75 to '78 in majorly underfunded equipment while having success on the local dirt tracks. In one of those starts, he took Will Conkrite's car to a Top 10 at the summer Daytona race, earning him a tryout in a second car for start up Osterlund Racing. He finished 4th finally getting a full time Cup ride at age 27. He would turn 28 that April in '79. Osterlund Racing was only in its 2nd season in '79. It was an unsponsored car that was not among elite equipment at the time. Osterlund was among the 2nd teir teams at the time. They were a "New Money" team like MC Anderson and Harry Ranier, a new team with an owner willing to spend a lot of money, but without anyone who really knew what it took to run an efficient Winston Cup operation. The team manager, Ronald Wlodyka, was a clueless Yankee who thought he was smarter than everyone else in NASCAR. He was the 1979 version of Tom German. The had veteran and proven winner Dave Marcis driving for them, and although he did a good job of taking care of the equipment, didn't win or lead a lot of laps. Of the teams entering 1979, Osterlund was clearly behind Junior Johnson, DiGard, Petty Enterprises, the Wood Brothers, Bud Moore, MC Anderson, Harry Ranier, and Hoss Ellington when you figure in experience, crew members (mostly young Californians with little knowledge of Winston Cup racing), and sponsorship (they had none). HMS going into '93 was only behind RCR (veteran team with the best driver), Junior Johnson (who, as it would turn out, had just made his final NASCAR stand), and Yates (who were about to tragically lose their cornerstone). I'd say they were a wash with Roush. Career: Jeff started out in the #24 Hendrick DuPont Chevy. Fast forward 18 seasons, he is still in the #24 Hendrick Chevy. DuPont was the primary sponsor every year until this year when AARP took over, but it seems like he is still in the DuPont car more than the AARP car. He has had unparalleled consistency throughout his career. He had visionary Ray Evernham as his crew chief through 1999 when Ray left to become a mediocre owner of a startup Dodge team. In that time, Jeff won 3 Winston Cup championships, while teammate Terry Labonte won one. After longtime HMS engineer Brian Whitesell intermed for the rest of '99 (2 wins), they got Robbie Loomis, a very bright guy and excellent leader that had taken the corpse of Petty Enterprises to 3 wins despite The King running the organization like it was still 1967. He was there until a bad 2005 season (Jeff won his 4th Winston Cup with Robbie) when he returned to Petty Enterprises. Steve LeTarte took over and proved to be one of the best at setting a car up, but one of the worst at calling a race. After a good season ('06) a REALLY good season ('07), and 3 disappointing seasons while Jeff battled injuries, the COT, and shopmate Jimmie Johnson and his unthinkable run of 5 straight Cups not only in the same equipment as Jeff, but on a team Jeff co-owns ('08-'10) he moved to an entirely new team in a new shop this year, but still at HMS with proven winner of a crew chief Alan G (I'm not even gonna try to spell his last name). Not a bad move honestly. So for nearly 2 solid decades of racing at this level, that is very little turmoil. Dale, on the other hand, can sum up his first 5 seasons with the word "turmoil". In his first season with no sponsorship, he won a race, ROY, and finished 7th in points even though he missed 4 races due to injury. With a small sponsorship deal in place for his 2nd season in '80, he won 5 races and the Winston Cup. He did this despite his crew chief leaving 1/3 of the way through the season, leaving him to be crew chiefed by talented, but 20 year old Doug Richert. They went head to head with the 11 car featuring the best owner at the time, Junior Johnson (in the midst of a 10 year stretch where he'd win 6 championships and about 427 races), the best driver (tough as nails Cale in his prime), and a team featuring Tim Brewer, Travis Carter, and Jeff Hammond (all former and/or future Cup champion crew chiefs). And Dale won. The next few years have been well documented. Osterlund bailed in '81 leaving Dale to driver for 3 different owners that year alone (that's 2 more than Jeff has driven for in his entire career), ending the season with independent Richard Childress who had a true shoestring organization at the time. Childress told him they weren't ready for a driver like him at the end of '81 and to go elsewhere. He went to Bud Moore in '82 and '83, having mechanical failures cause DNFs in 26 of their 60 races (damn!!!). He returned to RCR in '84 after they had two years of seasoning as a big time organization with Ricky Rudd, winning twice in '83. Not exactly HMS in '93, huh? They needed two more years to iron out the bugs, and finally, in '86, Dale was in position to make a huge run. He was 34, about to turn 35 in April at the time. When Jeff's team was ready to make their run in '95, Jeff was 23, and wouldn't turn 24 until August. RCR won two races before Dale joined them full time, and in the 10 and 1/2 years since his death, they have won 28 races with 4 different drivers. Dale has all 6 of RCR's championships and all 3 of their points runner up finishes. So yes, Jeff is legendary and isn't done yet. But compare his situation to Dale's, and I think Dale is way more impressive. And oh yeah, one last thing: Dale: 7 Jeff: 4 I rest my case. 123. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #119, what Earnhardt did in Rod Osterlund's #2 car was incredible, especially in 1980 when he won the championship in his second year, but that had, in fact been a very good team for some time. In fact, I believe that had been the Penske Racing team that had switched from the AMC Matadors to Mercurys in 1976. When Penske sold the team, Dave Marcis, who drove the car in 1977, went to Osterlund as part of the deal, as did the car numver 2. Osterlund then switched from Mercurys to Oldsmobiles for 1978. But their main problem was at the crew chief position. Their crew chief until the middle of 1980, Roland Wlodyka, was one of the most inept crew chiefs in history. He was, in fact, the reason Jake Elder left in the middle of the 1980 season. One must also remember that 1980 marked a year of change. Not only was that the final season of the original Cup cars, but Yarborough, Parsons, Allison, and Waltrip had all decided to leave their teams after the season, so there was turmoil in every one of those teams, a fact that Earnhardt, Osterlund, and new crew chief Doug Richert took advantage of on way to the title. Now, as for the suddenness of how that team "fell apart". That's not true either. In 1981, Osterlund hired Dale Inman away from the Pettys after the Daytona 500, but Osterlund was running low on money (or desire, having won the championship in only his third year), sold the team to Jim Stacy. (In 1978, Stacy had briefly sold his team with driver Neil Bonnett to Osterlund before buying it back for 1979 before Bonnett moved to the Wood Brothers to replace David Pearson, who won the 1979 Southern 500 driving for Osterlund.) But Stacy was never a fan of Earnhardt and simply didn't want him around, so they separated and Earnhardt drove for both Richard Childress and Bud Moore that season. Stacy's car was still competitve with Joe Ruttman, who nearly won several races and finished third as a rookie in the 1982 Daytona 500 in a race that saw Stacy run two cars and sponsor five others. But Stacy fired Ruttman later in 1982 and replaced him with Tim Richmond, who won both races at Riverside. Unlike Earnhardt, Stacy liked Richmond, but Richmond left when a better offer came along when M.C. Anderson sold his team to Raymond Beadle. Stacy also lost crew chief Dale Inman to Billy Hagan Racing and driver Terry Labonte. For 1983, Stacy hired Mark Martin (the same Martin who drives car #5 today) and they ran well, but Stacy didn't think that a driver as small as Martin could last in NASCAR, so he released him and replaced him with Morgan Shepherd. Stacy sold his team to Robert Harrington, one of his former crew chiefs, in 1984, who disbanded it. A side note, it was through Harry Hyde's asscoiation with Jim Stacy in 1977-'78 that Hendrick Motorsports's first car number was 5 when it became available in 1984, because when Nord Krauskopf sold his team to Stacy in the middle of the 1977 season, Stacy decided to change the car number from 71 to 5. When Hendrick started his team in 1984, he hired Hyde to be his crew chief, and even honored him by using the number 5, which the team still runs on its flagship car to this day. 124. 12345Dude posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Late again, oh well. Ryan Newman does nothing to Montoya earlier in the year, and then Montoya wrecks him. At this race, he shoved Kyle Busch off the track. And he wrecked Kasey Kahne for no reason. If somebody would of wrecked Montoya, like he did to Kahne (for no reason), he would of been screaming his head off. Also a very nice burn by Kasey Kahne at the end of the race. I don't look down at homosexuals, people of other races etc. etc. I don't even look down at the father and child that loved each other. But I have no, and I mean NO tolerance for mean people. Montoya to me, just seems like a rotten human being. I get disgusted every time Kevin Harvick talks. And I think now, the same thing is going to happen with Montoya. Now let's see the heat I get from Montoya and Harvick fans. This race to me proved, that the age of road ringers is pretty much done. I don't think we will ever see a road ringer, win again in the Sprint Cup Series. I was also surprised that Ambrose and Montoya weren't better at this race. The oval guys, are really getting good at these road courses. Also great runs by Martin Truex Junior (why doesn't he race this fired up every race?), and David Gilliland. Man Gilliland is amazing at this track. Didn't he grow up, right next to it? Something like that. "@DaleSrFan: They made it pretty clear that "we actually get to talk next week" was referring to the fact that Adam Alexander just won't shut the hell up." "Oh. Now that I think about it, he does talk too much. Thanks for clearing that up." Yeah, but he's going to be there next week. I think they were taking a shot at TNT, but then said it was to Adam Alexander because they didn't want to make TNT look bad. "Yeah, I don't think NASCAR is going to ban Montoya because of his lack of oval wins. They would've banned Robby Gordon a long time ago. I honestly think Montoya is here to stay in NASCAR. I don't see anyone taking him back in F1, and there just isn't any money in running IndyCars. What else is he going to do? I think he'll end up with an oval win eventually, but he'll never be the world class driver he's known as in NASCAR. But to be fair, it is kinda tough to be great driving for Ganassi. "I didn't mean to say ban him because of his lack of oval track wins. What I meant is that since he has had run-ins with the majority of the field, it I think would be in NASCAR's best interest to get rid of him. The guy does not care about anybody but himself. I bet if he wrecked someone and the guy got injured, he would say that that driver deserved it. Just my opinion." The most they would do, is give him probation. Honestly, there not going to do that. They never banned Carl Edwards, for what he did to Brad Keselowski (twice). They never banned Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Kevin Harvick etc. Also about people complaining about there not being enough "personalities". I agree. I think nascar's biggest problem is all the top drivers you can't relate to what so ever. Also all the top guys, are complete d****. At the same time though, it's a known fact that people remember things from the past, a lot more fondly, then they actually were. Atleast, the new talent coming in - seem to have their head on straight. Then again Ryan Truex, is the next Kyle Busch. This time I will also respond to people who respond to the post. Been lazy recently. 125. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, while you are correct in many of your facts concerning the comparison of RCR and HMS before they became championship caliber (as well as Ricky Rudd's connection between the two), Hendrick made mistakes in the late 80s regarding driver and crew chief chemistry that serve the team well today. Also, while Earnhardt had a two or three-year stretch in which he failed to finish as often as he finished, that was simply because he drover those cars too hard. The equipment back then had to be babied much more than the equipment of today has to be. And while you are correct about Earnhardt's championships compared to Gordon's, realize that the Chase has taken two titles away from Gordon. If not for the Chase, Gordon would have six titles, not four. And I currently rank Bobby Allison ahead of these two on my list of all-time great NASCAR drivers, and he only won the championship once, in 1983. Also, as I mentioned, while Earnhardt was undisputedly one of the greatest drivers of all-time, one of his greatest strengths was, when he got a hold of track, he never let go of it (37 wins at four tracks and 49 at six), while Gordon, like Bobby Allison, was like the old saying goes, "the jack of all trades and the master of none" when it comes to track dominance, as neither ever won more than seven times at any one track, but spread out their victories among many tracks. And by the way, the only reason that Dale Earnhardt drove for Bud Moore for two years (1982-'83) was that Richard Childress didn't deem his equipment and team ready for a driver of Earnhardt's caliber, and advised him to make that move, just as Junior Johnson advised Childress to give up driving and become just a car owner. When Earnhardt rejoined Childress in 1984, the rest, as they say, is history. But another knock I have on Earnhardt was his inability to succed against the other legendary drivers in the "super 7", as he did not really fare well against any of them when they were at their peak. His rise to consistent excellence in 1985 coincided with the fall of Allison, Yarborough, Petty, and, to a lesser extent, Waltrip (he never really raced with Pearson that often, so I can't compare the records of those two), and when Gordon came on the scene, the one time they had equal cars and teams (1995 through mid-'96), Earnhardt came out on the short end again. But his towering achievements should NEVER be underestimated, or underappreciated. 76 wins, 7 titles, wins in each of the crown jewel races rank him as one of the four greatest drivers in NASCAR history, just not as high as Petty, Allison, and Gordon, in my view. 126. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, he (Montoya) also ran his teammate Jamie McMurray off the track shortly before he ran Kyle off the track, and punted Ryan Newman (which came just seconds after the incident with Kyle Busch) not to mention his other run-ins during the race (Kahne and Keselowski). I count that he he run-ins with no fewer that five drivers. There may have been even more that we didn't see. But to see Kasey Kahne say what he did about Montoya is completely out of character for him, and that may say more about what other driver truly feel about Montoya that anything else. If a level-headed driver like Kahne makes those kind of comments about someone, think about what a Kevin Harvick or a Kyle Busch (who Montoya also had a run-in with a stated above) would have said about him. Even McMurray, whose personality is like Kahne's, had some unkind things to say on his radio after his encounter with Montoya early in the race. 127. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One of the things that, in my opinion, go against Johnson and the other current drivers is the fact that the championship doesn't mean anywhere nera as much as it once did, because, to win the championship today, you don't have to be a good all-around driver, since half the races in the Chase, if not slightly more, are on, basically the same kind of track, so all-around skill doesn't count for as much." Hey, I hate the cha$e a ton, but we still can't discount any championships won under this system. What is the ultimate goal for any major Cup team in this era? Win the championship. Going into every year since '04, everyone has known good and well what they will have to do to achieve that goal. The cream rises to the top, and you can't discount a single thing about JJ's run. The only legitimate argument you can have against JJ historically is that he has no competition that meets each of the following criteria: 1) talented and experienced enough to win a championship (this excludes everyone except JJ, Kyle, Kurt, Kevin, Carl, Biffle, Kenseth, Kahne, JPM, Jeff, Tony, Mark, Denny, and Burton) 2) has the mindset to win a championship and not take their head off their shoulders under pressure (this eliminates Kyle, Kurt, Kevin, Carl, JPM, and Denny) 3) in championship caliber equipment (this eliminates Kahne) 4) not distracted and/or over the hill (this eliminates Jeff, Tony, Mark, and Burton) and 5) not stuck in the purgatory of being a Roush driver under a long term contract (this eliminates Kenseth and Biffle). Only JJ meets all 5 of these. Plus, I think we can officially call JJ a versatile driver. He is solid on the road courses. He has just 1 win, but can always be counted on for a Top 10 there unless he has bad luck. A lot like Earnhardt. His worst discipline of racing is definitely plate tracks. But he still has 3 wins (including a Daytona 500) and, in his 5 year championship run, always is there at the end of the cha$e Dega race, including '06 when he probably would have won if not for Vickers doing what Vickers does best, wreck people on the straightaway. His flat track performance is incredible, 3 Indy wins (2nd most ever) and a '04 sweep of Pocono. He also has a ton of wins at Cali. And on the shorter flat tracks, he is unparalleled. 6 wins at Martinsville, 4 at Phoenix, and 3 each at Loudon and Richmond. The intermediates? Forget about it. He is in his own league. Quirky tracks have been good for him, 6 Dover wins, and 2 wins and many good runs at Darlington. Bristol is a relative weakness, but he does have a win there and many Top 5s recently after a horrible early career there. "Ever since Jimmie won the 1st title, Hendrick has crapped on any driver on his team who threatened Jimmie in the title race. Notice how Mark went from best driver on the circuit to 0 wins overnight. Sounds fishy to me." I disagree. If Rick were gonna set it up for one driver to get everything, it would be June. Those two have become so close with each filling a void tragically left in the other's life. And he has done a ton to help June even though June hasn't deserved that kind of treatment. He gave him some key people from Mark's incredible '09 season to June in '10 (it didn't work for June), then put him in the same shop as one of the greatest dynasty's in NASCAR history while still at their peak. So I don't think Rick is trying to give JJ everything. If anything, by putting known slacker June in the same shop as JJ and Chad, that kinda works against them. But I do think he's sticking it to Mark a little bit. First of all, he knows Mark is not the future of HMS. Secondly, I think he is mad that Mark didn't retire after '09 like was planned. At first he was gonna put Brad in that car for '10 and beyond after his Dega win. Then, when Tony decided driving for Toyota was too much of a conflict with his other racing interests, Rick wanted to put him in the #5 car. But Mark said no, he was gonna force Rick to honor his contract. Bad move for Mark. "Robin Miller bashes the drivers, he bashes the fans, and what is he? A guy with a girl's name who calls race car drivers "mommas boys" while they're out risking their lives and he's standing in the pits with a mic and pen." I agree. I've never had much respect for him as a journalist. Plus AJ Foyt punched him once. Granted AJ has never been shy with his fists, that should say something. "The only statistic in which Earnhardt outranks Gordon is in championships" That's like saying Dan Marino is better than Joe Montana in every statistical category except Super Bowl wins (which is true). What ultimately matters in sports? Who would you rather have behind center in a big game? "in a more competitve era" I disagree. During Dale's domination run ('86-'94) the following drivers were in their prime at one point or another: Rusty, Bill, Mark, Darrell, Rudd, Alan, Bodine, Richmond, Davey, Gant, Ernie (a loose cannon, but he could win anywhere), and Cole Trickle (just kidding). Of those drivers, Rusty, Bill and Kulwicki actually won a title during that stretch, and Davey came painfully close. A bunch of those drivers even peaked twice with different organizations at their peak (or one of their peaks) during Dale's run. Rusty with Blue Max in '89 and Penske in '93-'94. Darrell with Junior in '86 and HMS in '89. Bill with Melling in '87-'88 and Junior's last stand in '92. And Ernie with MMM in '91 and Yates in '94. During Jeff's best run ('95-'99), things were kinda watered down. He beat Dale and RCR in the last year of their prime in '95, but they would fall off the map as an organization and with Dale's injuries in '96. Burton hit his prime ('97-'00) and Mark had another great run ('95, '97-'98) but both were saddled with Roush and his micromanagement style that wore his teams out by year's end every time. DJ hit his prime from '96-'99, even winning the Cup in '99. And Terry had good runs in '95 and '96 (winning the title), but never was dominant in his entire career. During Jeff's run, Dale and RCR were down, Rusty and Penske were down (both due in part to trying to start second teams with new drivers that their long time drivers hated). Bill, Darrell, and Ricky had all made the awful career decision to become driver/owners right as costs skyrocketed, submarining each of their careers. Ernie was never the same after his '94 head injury. Bobby and JGR weren't quite ready week in and week out yet. Stewart didn't start until '99. Young Guns Mayfield, Skinner, Craven and Irwin never really panned out. It wasn't a bad era, but it wasn't great either. Compared to the early 90s and the early 00s, it was watered down. 128. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Give me Earnhardt. His huge legacy will always give him the advantage in these type of debates. The reason I discredit Jeff Gordon, is he hasn't won a championship in ten years. Dale never had a streak that long in his career. The longest championship drought in Dale's career was basically six years and that was after his final championship. When I began watching NASCAR in '01 Jeff was the man. He'd always be a contender for the win week in week out. But soon after that, he dropped off and hasn't been able to get back to the top of the mountain. So I've basically seen the worst of Jeff's career. Earnhardt basically drove NASCAR into the mainstream market in the 80's and 90's and Jeff was the one that took the torch that allowed NASCAR to get the huge television deal in '01. Both of these guys have been huge to stock car racing and comparing them is a discredit to them both. Totally different eras, totally different competitors, totally different cars. It's impossible to determine who was the better driver, so in these types of situations, I give the advantage to the driver with the bigger legacy. And that goes to Dale. No one will ever have the story that Dale had. He made NASCAR, NASCAR. Simple as that. If I was forced to rank the best drivers it'd basically have to be stat driven. It goes... 1. Richard Petty (200 WINS, 7 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 2. Dale Earnhardt (76 WINS, 7 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 3. David Pearson (105 WINS, 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 4. Herb Thomas (21.1 WIN%, 2 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 5. Jeff Gordon (84 WINS, 4 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 6. Cale Yarborough (83 WINS, 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 7. Bobby Allison (85 WINS, 1 CHAMPIONSHIP) 8. Jimmie Johnson (54 WINS, 5 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 9. Darrell Waltrip (84 WINS, 3 CHAMPIONSHIPS) 10. Junior Johnson (50 WINS) 129. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF: I think he does give Junior the best cars. In order: June, JJ, JG, Mark. I think June doesn't capitalize. Once the Chase starts it's: JJ, June (in Mark's car), JG and Mark (both with an ARCA budget). I think Jimmie isn't a scab on Jeff and Mark's rears (deliberate reference). 130. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But I have no, and I mean NO tolerance for mean people. Montoya to me, just seems like a rotten human being. I get disgusted every time Kevin Harvick talks. And I think now, the same thing is going to happen with Montoya. Now let's see the heat I get from Montoya and Harvick fans." I agree 100%. The way they treat their own crew members is sickening. At least Harvick treats the fans with more respect than JPM. You said it best, JPM seems like a rotten human being. " realize that the Chase has taken two titles away from Gordon. If not for the Chase, Gordon would have six titles, not four." Again, I put no stock in this. First of all, if not for the cha$e, the '04 title would have been JJ's hands down. They had a 230 point lead at mid summer, then blew 3 straight engines. Is there any way in the world that happens if they are using a season long points standing? And secondly, everyone knows what has to be done to be champion. I hate the cha$e, but it is the system used to determine the champ, and those that conquer it have to be respected every bit as much as Winston Cup champions. "And by the way, the only reason that Dale Earnhardt drove for Bud Moore for two years (1982-'83) was that Richard Childress didn't deem his equipment and team ready for a driver of Earnhardt's caliber, and advised him to make that move" That's true. On one hand Dale's career could have been better had he just stuck it out with Childress. But then again, by going to Bud for 2 years, he saw the grass is not always greener on the other side. He also realized Richard had some really good and dedicated crew members including big time underrated crew chief Kirk Shelmerdine. He has NEVER got anywhere CLOSE to the credit he deserves for building RCR into a team that could allow Dale to do what he was capable of. Richard made a similar plea with Dale at the end of '85 after they blew 11 engines. This time, much wiser, Dale said no, we're gonna stick it out. Does he make that decision if not for leaving after '81 and learning a lesson? Who knows. "But another knock I have on Earnhardt was his inability to succed against the other legendary drivers in the "super 7", as he did not really fare well against any of them when they were at their peak. His rise to consistent excellence in 1985 coincided with the fall of Allison, Yarborough, Petty, and, to a lesser extent, Waltrip (he never really raced with Pearson that often, so I can't compare the records of those two)" But by the same flip of the coin, they never had to contend with Dale at his peak during their peaks. Maybe those guys don't become legends if having to fight against Dale. He kept Cale from reaching the hallowed "4 championship" ground in 1980 by beating him head to head (the Osterlund team had just as much turmoil that year). He also kept others from reaching "all time great staus" in his prime. If not for Dale, Rusty wins 3 championships (I include '94, he wouldn't have blown so many engines if he weren't so far out of the championship hunt), Bill is a multiple champ, and Darrell reaches the "4 time champ club". If not for Dale, then Cale and Darrell would have made the 2nd HOF class, no questions asked, and Bobby and Lee probably would have to wait until this one. He definitely changed history ( c ESPN). "Also, as I mentioned, while Earnhardt was undisputedly one of the greatest drivers of all-time, one of his greatest strengths was, when he got a hold of track, he never let go of it (37 wins at four tracks and 49 at six)" This can be attributed to two things: First, Dale never had the horsepower to regularly contend at Pocono, Michigan, and Daytona and Dega pre-plates. Like somebody said earlier, give him Waddell as an engine builder from '79 to '88 and Randy Dorton for the rest of his career and his win total might have reached 100. He might have 20 wins at Dega. Secondly, from '82 through '96, most of Dale's career, they didn't run at a whole lot of tracks. Michigan and Pocono (which he was always at a disadvantage for reasons I mentioned), Daytona and Dega (at a disadvantage until plates happened, then won 11 combined). Darlington and Atlanta (domination at both). Short tracks at Bristol, Martinsville, Wilkesboro, and Richmond (25 combined wins), one milers at Dover and Rockingham (curiosly low win total at those two), and Charlotte (not one of his best tracks, yet he still has 5 wins there). They took Ontario and Texas World off the schedule before he really got his feet under him as a Cup driver. Nashville was removed in '85 after Dale won twice there. Riverside was a great track for him even though he never won there and it was removed in '88. During his prime, they added Phoenix (he won there), Indy (he won there), Sears Point (he won there), New Hampshire (never figured that track out), and Watkins Glen (no wins, a few good runs, a few embarrassing runs). By the time Texas, Cali, and Homestead showed up, RCR was way behind on intermediate stuff and Dale was battling injuries. And by the time Chicago and Kansas showed up, Dale was gone. 131. Eric posted: 06.28.2011 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Since you think Dale Sr. drove Bud's cares too hard, how do you explain Benny Parsons having 17 DNF's with Bud Moore in 1981? I am not saying it is all on Bud, but there was some equipment problems with Bud Moore before Dale Earnhardt Sr took. 17 DNF's in a season is not normal. The last time I check, Benny Parsons was not known for being hard on his equipment in his era and 17 DNF's in a season was very uncharacteristic for Benny Parsons. Bud Moore even said in the past that you needed to baby his equipment for 500 miles because his equipment was not made last that long in a race. Bud said during a series Speed Channel had on Nascar cup Champions and cup crew chief around the 2002 to 2005 time period. I couldn't remember what year that Speed had a series on championship cup drivers and crew chiefs, but I recalled the time period. Speed had that series way before the Nascar Hall of Fame was being built and Benny Parsons was still alive at the time. Speed's series even had one Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett and Terry Labonte when they running full time cup schedules. I remembered Bud mentioned his equipment when Speed had 2 parts on Dale Earnhardt Sr. when Bud talked the time Dale drove for him. Bud basically said His equipment need to be babied to last for 500 miles because they were made to last 300 to 400 miles. 132. BON GORDON posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't care what anyone says, Earnhardt has the best car and best team from 1990-1994 (despite a luck-luster 1992 season). Don't say his equipment wasn't as good as everyone elses. So I dont wanna hear this crap that Gordon only won his titles cause of Rick Hendrick unless you say Earnhardt won his cause of RCR as well. You dont win seven championships with driver alone. Cooper I can tell you one thing, Earnhardt was done winning championships as well. Also, Gordon's competition was much tougher overall than Earnhardts. Had Earnahrdt not been killed he would have gone the rest of his career without the 8th championship. No matter how good the 2000 season was for Earnhardt. I do beleive Hendrick Motorsports was a good team when Gordon came in, but not a championship winning team. Sterling Marlin said once that Gordon kinda made Hendrick Motorsports what is today. Im also convinced that Jimmie Johnson has the only good team at Hendrick. I agree with the NicoRosbergFan post #118. I believe Rick Hendrick is giving Mark and Jeff crap equipment. I don't think Jeff has gotten better equipment than Jimmie in a long time. Look at say Terry Labonte from like 1998-2003 or so at Hendrick Motorsports. There's no way he got the same equipment or had the best team, neither has Gordon. 133. 00andJoe posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As an aside to the conversation, I can't wait to see the reaction of fans (who knew him only as a DNQ-more-often-than-not driver) when Kirk Shelmerdine makes the HOF! Also, Daytona entry list is out. 46 cars: -The #21 with Trevor Bayne -Texas Terry in the #32 -Geoff Bodine in the TBR #35 -Kevin Conway in the #97 134. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Early in his career, Dale was one of those drivers that drove too hard, no matter who he was driving for, although in the early 80s, Ford was at huge disadvantage, so Moore and the Wood Brothers, who were the only competitve Ford teams, had to do things with their engines that would risk a much higher rate of failures that the GM teams. That would explain the unusually high amount of failures, even for a competent team like they were. Also DSFF, I did mention the turmoil that Osterlund's team had in 1980, with Jake Elder quitting because of Roland Wlodyka's imcompetence, and you are right when you say that the other legends did not race Earnhardt when he was at his best. But when Earnhardt did race head-to-head on equal ground against the likes of Allison, Yarborough, and the others, he did win his share of battles, but seemed to come up short in the bigger events. (Earnhardt finished second to Yarborough in the 1984 Daytona 500, but would never have beaten him in 1,000 years due to the HP he was at that you correctly stated, but he also lost a head-to-head duel with Bobby Allison in the 1986 Winston 500, when everyone thought he would win, and Earnhardt WAS at his best then.) NicoRosbergFan, you are right that it's nearly impossible to compare drivers (or athletes in other sports) of different eras, unless, a number of those you're trying to compare competed against each other. (I would definately have put Herb Thomas higher on my list if not for his career-ending injuries in 1956.) And actually, DSFF, Dale DID win twice at Talladega before resrtictor plates came to be (1983-'84 Talladega 500s), though none of his three Daytona points-paying wins came before the birth of modern restrictor plate racing in 1988 (restrictor plates or similar HP reducing devices were actually used from Aug. 1970-'74), and not before Bobby Allison scored his final Daytona victory, and Darrell Waltrip's only Daytona victory in 1989. And I wouldn't exactly call what Gordon faced in his best years, which were actually 1995-2001, not '99 as you mentioned, watered-down competition. In fact, Gordon not only had Earnhardt to contend with, but many of his (Dale's) rivals. Drivers like Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Terry Labonte, Ricky Rudd, Sterling Marlin, Ernie Irvan, as well as Bobby Labonte (Jarrett and both Labonte brothers won championships during this period and Martin finished in the top four every year from 1993-'98), and on occasion, Bill Elliott, though Elliott didn't win during this period until Homestead 2001, so your point about Gordon's perceived lack of competition doesn't fly. Also, one problem Dale had at Michigan and Pocono that I'm not sure you mentioned was the fact that he had some horrific crashes at those two tracks, so he may have also been a bit tempermental at those two tracks, but his lack of HP was a factor, and it took him a while to master tracks where finesse was needed, hence his problem at road courses. (Though that didn't faze him at Darlington, the ultimate technique track.) And Eric, your point about Benny Parsons is true, how else could he have finished in the top 3 in the Daytona 500 a record four consecutive years (1975-'78) in an era where just finishing the race was an accomplishment. (Though he also falied to finsh that event five straight years from 1981-'85.) Parsons and Trevor Bayne are, at this time, probably the two most conservative drivers ever to win the Daytona 500, though Bayne's conservativeness is probably from a lack of confidence in himself due to what happened to him at Phoenix a week later. 135. Eric posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, I really can't say for sure if RCR was the best team in 1994. I am saying that because Robert Yates with Ernie Irvan was a true threat to deal in 1994 and only 27 points away Dale for getting the points Lead before his career altering Michigan crash. If Ernie didn't had that crash at Michigan, it wasn't a guarantee that Dale Sr was going to win his 7th championship. 136. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I mentioned in the Coca Cola 600 race page, Hendrick South (Gordon/Martin) are about two steps behind Hendrick North (Johnson/Earnhardt Jr.). And it's been like that for a while now. When Junior was in the South stable with Mark Martin he couldn't keep his head above 20th place. But most big teams are like that. Even Roush has difference in equipment for his drivers. That's just the way it is. Another thing that hinders my opinion on J-Go is were in a recession when it comes to competitiveness. There's basically 5 teams that supply engines and equipment to the whole field. There's not that many challengers to these top teams, so I'm not surprised when Jimmie and/or Gordon run well. It's not like the late 90's/early 00's when the field was deep 1st-43rd. 137. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, Kirk shelmerdine should, at least be a nominee in the next three to five years, and I'll be shocked if he doesn't get in by the end of the decade, because he was as much a part of Dale, Sr.'s success in his greatest years as anyone, including Earnhardt himself. 138. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, Cooper, I'd say the opposite is true. Because there aren't that many engine builders (or number of teams, for that matter), combined with the three and four-car teams of today, I'd say there are MORE competitve cars than ever, not less. And also, if the #5/#24 teams are, as you say, one or two steps behind the #48/#88 teams, why then is Gordon (#24) the only one that seems to running up front recently? Earnhardt's near-wins were due to fule mileage strategy, nothing more, while seems something a bit off on Johnson's team. and the #5/#24 team will be better next year simply with Kasey Kahne's arrival. After all, one thing that I think is holding the #5 car back is the driver (Mark Martin), who, while one of the most successful drivers in the modern history of the sport, he's also losing the one battle that no one can win, and that's the battle against father time. After all, Martin is 52 years old and will soon be older than anyone that's ever won before, while Kahne is 31 years of age. 139. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 138. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.11 - 2:06 pm "Why then is Gordon (#24) the only one that seems to running up front recently?" The reason Jeff Gordon is running up front is because he's a 4-time champion and can wheel a racecar. Jeff is one of the racers that you could put in below average equipment and he'll still get you good results. The parent teams that are in charge, are giving their stepchildren lower class equipment and that creates a big gap between Championship Contenders/Chase Contenders/Field Fillers. Currently my team chart only has 16 teams ultra competitive... 6 championship contenders: #11,#18,#24,#29,#48,#99 10 chase contenders: #88,#14,#39,#16,#42,#4,#5,#17,#33,#22 It's the lowest in recent memory. 140. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn Eric, you beat me to it. Bud Moore's stuff was not reliable. Eric, you mentioned BP, but we also need to remember Bobby Allison left at the end of 1980 because he felt he could never win the Winston Cup with the stuff Ford was putting into NASCAR. And he was right. By the time a Ford finally won the championship again (Elliott in '88), Bobby's career was over. He got the '83 Cup in a Buick. cjs, I say we just agree to disagree. I have the utmost respect for Jeff Gordon. He was presented with a tremendous opportunity, and he ran with it. Many others have since been presented with similar opportunites that have similar freakish talent and didn't do nearly as much with it (this includes Stewart). Besides, his current success at "Hendrick South" (thanks Cooper, that is perfect) is adding to his legacy. "As an aside to the conversation, I can't wait to see the reaction of fans (who knew him only as a DNQ-more-often-than-not driver) when Kirk Shelmerdine makes the HOF!" He absolutely should be in the HOF, and you are right, many people will be like "what the hell?". Two things have hurt him historically. First, he was never very visible publically, letting Richard take the lion's share of the credit for the car and team because Kirk had no ego and he knew Richard did and needed the recognition. Secondly, Andy Petree joined the team after Kirk left and won two championships and a runner up in just 3 seasons before becoming an owner. But Andy was a DAMN good crew chief too. He rejuvenated Harry Gant's career and team in '89 through '92. They had a long winless spell before that. "Earnhardt has the best car and best team from 1990-1994 (despite a luck-luster 1992 season)." He never had the best motors except in 1987. That held him back at Michigan and Pocono as well as Daytona and Dega before restrictor plates leveled the field. He only won two unrestricted races at Dega and none at Daytona. For his 4 combined career wins at Michigan and Pocono, 2 came in '87 when he could match Ernie Elliott and Waddell on power, a 2nd Michigan win came in '90 after Bill dominated but blew up with about 20 to go. The bulk of his wins came at short tracks (27 wins), Atlanta which has twice as much corners as straightaways (9 wins), Darlington which drives like a short track (9 wins), and plate tracks 11 wins). That is 56 wins there on drivers tracks. Throw in 3 wins at The Rock, 3 at Dover, 1 at Phoenix and 1 at Sears Point, all driver's tracks, and that is all but 12 of his wins. 141. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was referring to the HMS drivers when I saked why is Gordon the only one running up front cosistently, though Johnson's pit crew isn't helping him one bit. When Kahne arrives there next year, you'll see the #5 car up front more often due to the fact that he's 21 years younger than Martin, who's age is getting in the way. And DSFF, for your observation about the Fords having probelms, especially Bud Moore's team, but also the Wood Brothers team, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that was because they were at such a HP disadvantage to the GM cars, that they had to do things to their engines to get them closer to the GM cars, and that often led to a higher amount of failures. And that didn't really improve until well into the 1984 season. when the Fords got even in terms of HP in 1985, the aerodynamic advantage the car they debuted in 1983 gave them completely turned the tables on the GM cars, so much so that NASCAR had to give the GM teams an sloped back rear window. And I also disagree that Charlotte was one of Dale Earnhardt's weaker tracks. As somenoe mentioned, he won 5 points-paying races (one off the record) and was the first to win the All-Star Race more than once, and the first to win it 3 times. That's hardly what I call a weak track for a driver. 142. BON GORDON posted: 06.28.2011 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dont care DaleSrFanForever if had the best engines. Those engines were still pretty damn good if you ask me. He still had the best team from 1990-1994. It's not all Earnhardt. Earnhardt isn't some mythical super machine that everyone makes him out to be. I like Earnhardt but to me hes no better than Gordon, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough, Allison, or Waltrip. The seven titles arent enough for me to say hes better than Gordon or any of the other legends I have listed. Put them all in there prime in the equal cars to their liking and that would be a six wide drag race to the finish. 143. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, I think you mean a seven-wide drag race to the finish, since you mentioned seven drivers, not six. And I agree that championships are not the be-all and end-all, but they are important, at least the ones up through 2003. (Only twice during the Chase era, 2005 and '06 has the best driver and team throughout the entire season actually won the title.) If you grade it merely by championships, Terry Labonte and Joe Weatherly (22 and 24 wins, respectively with two titles each) would rank ahead of Bobby Allison (85 wins, 1 title), Junior Johnson (50 wins, never ran for the title), Bill Elliott (44 wins, 1 title), Mark Martin (40 wins, no titles), and Fireball Roberts (33 wins, no titles). And it is the overall team that wins, though having a superior driver is the most important part. Look at the Roush Racing #6 car the last five years for a prime example. David Ragan has had four or five crew chiefs, including Jimmy Fennig and Drew Blickensderfer, both of whom are Daytona 500 winning crew chiefs, yet he can't find the front of the field except for restrictor plate races with a compass. And not only were the RCR engines throughout from the late 80s through the mid-to-late 90s among the best, they may were probably the most reliable in that period. After all, from 1986-'96, Earnhardt finished in the top four in points every year but one (1992, when Ford had a sizeable advantage throughout the entire season) and in the top three in points every year but 1992 and '96 in that span, and in 1997, Earnhardt, though he didn't win a race, joined Cale Yarborough (1977) as just the second driver to be running at the end of EVERY race through an ENTIRE season, resuliting in a fifth-place points finish, I believe. So while Earnhardt was often overaggressive early in his career, by 1991, I would say, he began to tone it down, and that's when the championships came by the bundle. And Cooper, the teams you mention as championship-calibur and chase-calibur teams are just the one running up front on a consistent basis. You mentioned that, in your opinion that the #11 and #18 JGR, #24 and #48 HMS, the #29 RCR, and #99 RFR teams are the only one that are championship-calibur. Have you watched any races lately, because I count the #17 RFR and #22 Penske teams as being legitimate chamionship contenders. and you mentioned that the #4 RBR, #5 HMS (which isn't really a contender this year, even for the top 10, and I think top 15 may be streching it), #14 and #39 SHR, #16 RFR (which is off its normal pace this year), #33 RCR, #88 HMS, #42 EGR cars are Chase contenders this year. I would add to that list the #27 RCR car, the #2 Penske car (which has actually won a race this year, unlike some of the others you mentioned), the #9 RPM car (if you're going to list Martin and Montoya, you'd better list Menard and Ambrose, because they've actually been better). The #78 Furniture Row car isn't a contender, even though it won one of the crown jewels this year (Southern 500), and there are other that can be, or have been competitve (#43 RPM car and, despite the driver, the #6 RFR car). Heck, even the Wood Brothers (#21) have been more competitve that they've been in years in the half-season schedule that they're running and will continue to run unless something unforeseen happens. They even won the Daytona 500 for the first time since the Ford presidency. So there are indeed many more competitve cars than you say there are. Yes, some are significantly better than others, even within the same organization, but that is as old as the sport itself is. 144. Spen posted: 06.28.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF : Okay, I'm going to have to do something I know you hate, and I hate doing. But I'm going to have to play the "you're contradicting yourself" card. Okay, you're saying that Dale's plate wins count as wins on driver's tracks, right? But you've also said that Michael Waltrip's plate wins don't count for anything. Now, from what I can see, a plate track can either be a driver's track or an engineering track, but it can't be both. See where I'm coming from here? And I'm not trying to flame you, just trying to make a point. Personally, I call plate tracks "dumb luck wins", but that's just me. Similarly, you'd have a hard time convincing most people that Atlanta is (or rather was) a driver's track. Yeah, it was more turn than anything else, but at the end of day, it's still a mile and a halfer. Most of which are called "engineering tracks". Now, getting into the subject of "how good was Dale's car compared to everyone else's" (and just so everyone knows, I'm a Bill Elliott fan, and a former member of the ABE club. So I think I can say this without being called a fanboy.) : In '94 he had the fourth best car. Yates, Penske, and Geoff Bodine were all faster. However, Bodine had unreliable engines, and unreliable Hoosier tires to contend with, and Penske's motors weren't too good over the long haul either. That left Yates, and with Irvan's injury, Dale got handed the title. '93 : Penske was faster than RCR, but Rusty had a bit too much bad luck. RCR was ahead of Yates, though. '92 : Yates reigns supreme, followed by Junior Johnson, Roush, Leo Jackson, Hendrick, SABCO, MMM, RCR, and AK racing, in roughly that order. '91. : Yates was number one, but Davey had a lot of inconsistency. Hard too say who was number two with certainty, but it was either Dale or Harry. Ricky finished second in points just because he finished in the top twenty in all but one race, not because he had a good car. His only win was handed to him by Michael Waltrip, after all. Penske was just starting back up, MMM was at their peak, but not quite on the same level as RCR. And Mark was having an off year. '90 : Okay, Dale was number one that year. I'm not certain how anyone could argue against that. Sure, Mark almost won the title, but that was based purely on consistency, not on having a fantanstic car. Dale had nine wins. I don't see how he was at any sort of disadvantage. And by the way, Dale was pretty much the best in '86 as well. Yeah, the two Hendrick cars were fast, but they weren't reliable. Melling fell back to earth once everyone caught up to them after '85, and Junior Johnson's team was operating on pure consistency. So basically, that's three titles that Dale won with the best car, two with the second best, and two without anything close. That's still pretty darned impressive if you ask me. Oh and by the way "And I also disagree that Charlotte was one of Dale Earnhardt's weaker tracks." It is the track where he had his worst average finish. 145. Spen posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and should I mention that Earnhardt threw away the '89 title, even though he did have just about best car? RCR, Blue Max, and Hendrick were all pretty much equal that year. It's hard to say for sure which one was on top. 146. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, it's definately a debatable topic. While the #5 hasn't been running as good as usual, they're still a well respected team in the garage. They are 14th in the standings, which is pretty good. But just look at all the start-and-parkers. Usually theres 7 cars in the garage by lap 50. That of course wasn't the case years ago. It's basically a 30 car field week in week out. It's just the eb and flow of the Sprint Cup series. Maybe in 3 or 4 years we'll return to 35-40 competitive teams, but until then a lot of drivers are getting better stats then they would be at any other time. Here's a list of the amount of full-time drivers to have an average finish of 20th or better... 2011-23 drivers 2010-23 drivers 2009-21 drivers 2008-15 drivers 2007-16 drivers 2006-17 drivers 2005-18 drivers 2004-21 drivers 2003-16 drivers 2002-16 drivers 2001-15 drivers 2000-14 drivers 1999-12 drivers 1998-15 drivers 1997-16 drivers 1996-16 drivers 2010 and 2011 have been dreadful for competition. It's very easy to run in the Top 20 these past two years. As you can see, there was times in this series, that finishing in the top 20 was damn hard. Also the spike in 2004 relates to the fact that there was alot of start and parkers that year as well. 1999 still stands as the most competitive year in Cup history. Terry Labonte who finished 12th in the standings had an average finish of 20.1...Incredible. 147. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, you can't base how good a driver is at a certain track just on average finish. Remember, in the 1989 fall race, Earnhardt was the first out, lasting fewer than 20 laps with a broken crankshaft or camshaft and the 1991 fall race wasn't much kinder to him either, thanks to a rare miscue in the pits that cost him numerous laps. But only Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson has scored as many win in Cup cars, counting all-Star Races. All three drivers have 8 wins a Charlotte, counting wins in All-Star Races. That's why I think Charlotte was actually one of his better tracks. Also, if Roush didn't have enough bad news on the sponsorship front, being unable (or not intending)to find any sponsorship for Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne's NNS car, as well as only being able to sponsor the car of Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. (the probable NNS champion this year) for about half the season, and even having trouble finding full-time sponsorship for Carl Edwards' #60 NNS car, as well as trying to find sponsorship for his #6 flagship car next season, (and the #6 car is his flagship car, despite it's lack of success in recent years), now comes word that he's now going to be looking for sponsorship for Matt Kenseth's #17 Cup car, as Crown Royal has announced that they're leaving. sure, Kenseth has other primary sponsors, but that leaves Kenseth without a sponsor for some races next year, as well. As a result of this, Roush may have to spend less time worrying about renewing Carl Edwards' contract, and more on finding funding for his teams, unless he plans to downsize next year. (Maybe to two NNS cars, instead of the three he has been running, basically out of his own pocket this year.) That also means that, if Edwards does remain at Roush, that there may now be a greater possibility that he may have to cut one of his development drivers (Trevor Bayne?) loose due to lack of sponsorship. 148. JP88 posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #139 I honestly think the championship contenders aren't even all of the ones you posted... I only see (4) Championship Contenders #99, #48, #18, and #29 #11, #24, #17, and #22 are in the second-tier as possible championship contenders but they would need a huge chase to pull it off. Then you have the 3rd-tier of the chase hopefuls that have no shot to win the title: #88, #33, #39, #14, #16 Then you have the guys like #4, #5, and #42 who expect to be in the chase but have either underperformed or have had issues. 149. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, you're right about there being a fairly high number of start-and-park drivers and teams running the circuit this year. But that's nothing new and actually goes back to the 1960s and '70s. In the 1963 Southern 500, 13 of the 41 starters lasted 20 laps or less, and in the 1965 Daytona 500, marred by the Chrysler Corporation boycott of NASCAR that year, 14 of the 43 starters failed to last more than 15 MILES. In the 1971 Daytona 500, Ron Keselowski (Brad's uncle), who had rolled at the end of his qualifying race, started the race just to get the last place money and parked it after just one lap. The '72 Daytona 500 saw nine cars last fewer than 25 laps, though some of those were substantially financed teams for the day (Petty Enterprises #11 car, Penske Racing's #16 car, and Nord Krauskopf's #17 car, which was the ople sitter for that race), and others (Baker, Buddy Arrington, and Walter Ballard) were knocked out by crashes, there were some that parked that day, as well. And car count was such a problem late in 1971, that NASCAR let its Grand American series for smaller pony cars compete at short tracks with the Grand National cars, and the smaller pony cars actually won three of those races, including the one by Bobby Allison that continues to cause a gap in the official NASCAR record books. So car count has been an off-and-on problem almost since the inception of the sport. 150. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JP88, not to mention Roger Penske's #2 car, which has been strong recently, and has actually won a race, Richard Petty Motorsports' #9 car, which has run strong, but needs to win at Watkins Glen to have any chance, RCR's #27 car, which has also run strong at times. Even RFR's #6 (despite it's driver) and RPM's #43 car has run strong at times this year, and I wouldn't count out, at least to win a race before year's end, EGR's #1 car, but none of the mentioned will make the Chase this year, that I agree with. 151. BON GORDON posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well basically what everyone is saying is that you need good cars, team, and LUCK to be a champion....WELL DUH!!! All I was saying is that Earnhardt is no better than Gordon or some of the other legendary drivers I mentioned. Earnhardts team was one of the best and he had the best luck thats why he was champion. If anyone remembers 1998 Jeff Gordon never had the best cars for a majority of the races he won. He didnt even lead the most laps that season. I believe Mark Martin did. Jeff Gordon got put into the best positions at the end of the races and held on for dear life for the win. He took 5th place race cars and won with them. I felt that Gordon was better than anyone at getting the most out of a non-winning or bad race car. Yes, even better than Earnhardt. BIG DADDY got his nickname for a reason and was NEVER intimidated by old Ironhead. He could stand toe-to-toe with him...that's right I went there! 152. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I also disagree that Charlotte was one of Dale Earnhardt's weaker tracks. As somenoe mentioned, he won 5 points-paying races (one off the record) and was the first to win the All-Star Race more than once, and the first to win it 3 times. That's hardly what I call a weak track for a driver." It was an up and down track for him. He had some really good stretches there. He was excellent there in his first two seasons, he swept 1986, and won back to back 600s in 1992 (when he didn't get a penalty he should have got) and 1993 (when he got a rough driving penalty he shouldn't have got, he never touched Sacks). But he also had some pretty bad stretches there. After winning Atlanta in '00, his only win there after they put in the dogleg, he said he didn't like tracks with doglegs. "Okay, you're saying that Dale's plate wins count as wins on driver's tracks, right? But you've also said that Michael Waltrip's plate wins don't count for anything." Good point, let me explain: The restrictor plate cars DEI put out there from '01 to '04 were blatently superior. I'm basing this off a few things. First of all, the 8 and 15 cars could make moves without drafting help and were the only cars that couldn't be shuffled back. The '01 Pepsi 400 was a perfect example. Also, his winning pass in the '04 Daytona 500 was unassisted, like an unrestricted slingshot. Nobody else could do what those DEI cars could. If Mike Skinner had won some plate races, then I'd be less impressed by Dale's plate races. But he didn't, so he didn't have the obvious advantage DEI had during Mikey's wins. Even in Dale's incredible run from 18th to 1st in his last win, he needed Kenny Wallace right on his ass. And let me be clear about this: I'm NOT saying RCR was a bad organization. Or second rate. I'm just pointing out that he never quite had the steam others had like Waddell prepared cars from the start of Dale's career through '85, like Bill had from '84 to '90, like the Yates drivers (Davey, Ernie, DJ) had from '87 to '04, like Mark had from '90 to '99, like Gordon had from '95 to present. You need a good engine to win ANYWHERE. Dale had really good engines. He just never had great engines. At some tracks, horsepower is more of a factor in how you run than others. The tracks in which horse power means the most are Pocono, Michigan, Indy, and California. This list also included Daytona and Dega before they mandated plates. Check his record at these places and his Daytona and Dega record before plates and after plates. 153. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 149. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.11 - 5:25 pm "So car count has been an off-and-on problem almost since the inception of the sport." Understandable. NASCAR was just so strong at the turn of the new millenium, I'm surprised the sport didn't keep thriving through 2010 and beyond. They're was so much money in the sport, with multiple teams/owners. We had an unlimited amount of engine builders/owners and I thought I'd never see the day where the sport would be dominated by just a few people. Look at who the sport lossed in the last decade... Robert Yates Racing-Now makes engines for Roush Petty Enterprises-Now gets engine from Roush DEI/Ganassi-Gets engines from RCR Morgan McClure-GONE PPI-GONE Bill Davis-GONE Ernie Elliott-GONE Ray Evernham-GONE MB2-GONE All of these were once respectable organizations/people and they all faded away from the sport. What happened? So I'm very stingy when it comes to giving credit to drivers/teams because I feel that the sport was much stronger before. Both Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt earned their championships in a time where competition was at it's highest. 154. Scott B posted: 06.28.2011 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It will be interesting to see how sponsorship plays out in the NNS for the next few seasons. Many fans wanted to see reduced crossover from Cup drivers, but those Cup drivers were bringing sponsorship dollars. In a perfect world, those sponsorships would go to up and coming drivers instead. However, we don't live in a perfect world, and in fact much of that money is going to leave motorsports entirely. I think Cup teams will be more cautious about spending money out of their own pockets to fund development drivers, compared to the last decade. Unless they have a situation where they know for certain they will have an opening in one of there Cup rides, it's a risky proposition to groom a young prospect and then have to turn him loose to sign elsewhere. 155. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.28.2011 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They need to bite the bullet and take a chance and do what other series do: No top level drivers in lower tier series. They need to do a 66 car race at Daytona, season finale, 33 Cup cars, 33 NNS cars. That would be fun. 156. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, the sport didn't lose all those teams, most of them, yes. DEI and Ganassi, for instance, merged to become Earnhardt-Ganassi Racing. Petty Enterprises and Evernham Motorsports also merged to become Richard Petty Motorsports, though both organizations downsized. Before merging with Ganassi, DEI also merged with MB2/Ginn Raing, I believe. PPI was never a popular team. Their owner, Cal Wells forced both Ricky Rudd's and Bill Elliott's teams out of the sport by getting their sponsorships in successive years. (He got Rudd's sponsor Tide for the 2000 season for Scott Pruett and later Ricky Craven, and then got Elliott's sponsor McDonald's to form a second team with driver Andy Houston in 2001. Craven even won twice for PPI, each in a dramatic finish. But in just a few short years, PPI was out of the sport for good.) Bill Davis Racing, the last team to score an upset Daytona 500 win until this year, ran out of funds after Davis was sued by Dodge in 2004 over the Toyota flap (when Davis ran a Truck Series team with Toyotas instead of Dodges). Davis then sold his team to Michael Waltrip in 2006, which helped him form his Cup team. Meanwhile, Robert Yates, who turned his team over to his son Doug, grew tired of the sport after that team's merger with Hall of Fame Racing failed. Then Doug Yates sold his team to Petty, which was Petty's fourth team with driver Paul Menard. Yates now concentrates on the family specialty, building engines. Meanwhile, Morgan-McClure Motorsports just simply fell behind the times in the late-90s and became more and more uncompetitve until they shut their team down several years ago due to lack of sponsorship. 157. 00andJoe posted: 06.28.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Morgan-McClure is actually still around, barely - they attempted Bristol last fall with Kevin Lepage. 158. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.2011 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, but how many races have they even attempted in the last four years? Probably less than 10. And they even gave their number (4) to Red Bull for Kasey Kahne to run this year. If that's not a team shutting down it's operations, I don't know what is. 159. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 156. cjs3872 posted: 06.28.11 - 7:09 pm "DEI and Ganassi, for instance, merged to become Earnhardt-Ganassi Racing. Petty Enterprises and Evernham Motorsports also merged to become Richard Petty Motorsports, though both organizations downsized." Obviously I know all of this. I wasn't under a rock. I was just stating that the merges eliminated more teams. While a merge keeps two business partners in business, it still in fact eliminated a whole team. In fact those two merges caused 7 teams to evaporate. #15/#8/#01/#40/#41/#44/#19. 160. Bronco posted: 06.28.2011 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Good point, let me explain: The restrictor plate cars DEI put out there from '01 to '04 were blatently superior." Ok, then why wasn't the #1 car running up front at RP tracks during the days when Mikey and Dale Jr were dominating Daytona and Talladega. I know the #1 had a revolving door of drivers after Park's injury, but neither he or the guys that replaced him did anything worthy at RP tracks. So I'm not buying that "blatantly superior" explanation. Mikey and Dale Jr still ran up front at RP tracks following those years, even though their results may not always reflect that. "If Mike Skinner had won some plate races, then I'd be less impressed by Dale's plate races." Skinner nearly won Earnhardt's last race, leading lap 186 before Dale Jr or Labonte bumped him in the trioval, breaking his momentum. Skinner was also in the mix to win the 1999 Daytona 500, and he pushed Earnhardt to the lead in the fall 1999 Talladega race. So he was pretty good at those tracks in his own right. 161. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Skinner nearly won Earnhardt's last race, leading lap 186 before Dale Jr or Labonte bumped him in the trioval, breaking his momentum. Skinner was also in the mix to win the 1999 Daytona 500, and he pushed Earnhardt to the lead in the fall 1999 Talladega race. So he was pretty good at those tracks in his own right." He also had a 2nd place finish to Jeff Gordon at Talladega in the 2000 Diehard 500. 162. BON GORDON posted: 06.28.2011 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Skinner was a great plate racer. I don't know who said he wasn't but from like 1997-2000 Mike Skinner was always near the front at some point during a plate race. He has 2 Tops and 8 Top 10s. He also has two poles including the 1997 Daytona 500. Not great numbers but still probably got caught up in some wrecks as well. And of course DEI was the best from 2001-2004. The car would sail through the turns and maintain speed while others slowed. Steve Park doesnt count sorry. He never seemed to be around the front at restrictor plate races. Get this, in 23 races he only has one top 10 finish and has led only 4 laps! That just seems like Plate racing wasn't his style. 163. Red posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2010 and 2011 have been dreadful for competition. It's very easy to run in the Top 20 these past two years." This is so true. In 2011, there are only 29 legitimate, competitive teams, and in 2010 there were only 31. When you look at this year's standings, the top 29 drivers all have an average finish of 23.5 or better. After that, there's a huge dropoff down to the field-fillers and S&P's. The same is true when you look at Driver Rating; the top 29 are all 62.9 and higher, but the 30th best is only 51.5. To put that in perspective, the gap between 29th and 30th is larger than the gap between 8th and 17th. Wow. In 2010, it was much the same. The top 30 drivers all had an average finish of 25.1 or better, then everyone below them is 29.0 or worse. I know it's kind of mathy, but I think the best way to adjust average finishes is to use percentiles. In other words, a 15th place finish in a 30 car field would be the 50th percentile, while a 15th in a 40 car field would be the 63rd percentile. 164. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Skinner is much better than Mikey, yet he never won a plate race (or any Cup race) while Mikey won 4 plate races with DEI. He won none before he got in the 15 car and none after. June has also had quite a dry spell at the plate tracks (well, everywhere for that matter) since leaving DEI. That tells me DEIs stuff was superior to RCRs plate cars from '88 to '00. 165. Cooper posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly Red. Don't need to say anymore. And that's a great suggestion, using the percentiles. We're only 29 cars deep, so basically 14 cars are backmarkers who have absolutely no chance to compete. 166. 12345Dude posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ??But to see Kasey Kahne say what he did about Montoya is completely out of character for him, and that may say more about what other driver truly feel about Montoya that anything else.? I liked your whole post about JPM. But that (above) is an AMAZING point. I didn??t even think about that. I wish I could go into these ??best driver ever? debates. I??ve only been watching for 9 years. I??ll have to wait another 10 years, when it??s going to be Jimmie Johnson vs. Dale Earnhardt. It will be the loyal Earnhardt fans ??he had the personality? and ??he made nascar? vs. maybe best pure driver (but no personality.) (Didn??t ??make? nascar) ??though Bayne's conservativeness is probably from a lack of confidence in himself due to what happened to him at Phoenix a week later.? Really you think he is too conservative? I??m curious why (sorry been lazy reading posts cause you might of mentioned it earlier) 6 championship contenders: #11,#18,#24,#29,#48,#99 10 chase contenders: #88,#14,#39,#16,#42,#4,#5,#17,#33,#22? It??s the lowest in recent memory? (Like DESFF and others have said) I completely agree. These are also things hurting possible title contenders. 1. Always putting your team down. Always causing drama with other drivers. Not having right mind set, to be a champion. Includes: Carl Edwards, Kyle Busch, Tony Stewart (99-08), Juan Pablo Montoya, Kevin Harvick 1.1 Not having a shot at title contention equipment, because attitude has isolated you. Kurt Busch 2. Too laid back, happy where they are. Don??t have enough drive. Jeff Gordon (08-Current), Ryan Newman 3. Making bad career decision, owning your own team. Tony Stewart, and possibly Robby Gordon (agree with everyone on here about him. Wasn??t that sad seeing him battle for 20th all race?) 4. Can??t handle pressure. Doesn??t have enough drive. Racing, really not for them. But it makes $. (This sounds mean, he is my second favorite driver) Dale Earnhardt Junior 5. Obsessed with Nationwide/Truck Series Brad Keselowski, Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick 167. Rusty posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think any of Michael Waltrip's wins should be discredited. But he's never won at a non restrictor plate track, which makes his resume look bad. If he had only 4 career wins but they were at Sonoma, Bristol, Martinsville and Pocono it would be different. But they all were at Daytona and Talladega and one of them was a rain shortened 2003 Daytona 500. 168. Red posted: 06.28.2011 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We're only 29 cars deep, so basically 14 cars are backmarkers who have absolutely no chance to compete." You never want to see that many weekly backmarkers, but I think it's even more of an issue in the chase era. This year, with only 29 legit cars, a full 41.3% of the field will qualify for the chase. To me, that's utterly ridiculous, and it devalues the first 26 races to a disgusting degree. To put that in perspective, the NFL only allows 37.5% of its teams into the playoffs, and in MLB it's only 26.7%. With Red Bull shutting down after this season, we could potentially have only 27 real Cup teams, which would mean 44.4% of them would make the chase. That's approaching the absurdity of the NBA and NHL. 169. Smokefan05 posted: 06.28.2011 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's approaching the absurdity of the NBA and NHL." Or the NCAA basket ball tournament. You forgot that. OH and btw, MLB is thinking of adding more teams to its playoff. but hey, we have more teams in the chase because of the "tony stewert rule." 170. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "there was some equipment problems with Bud Moore before Dale Earnhardt Sr took. 17 DNF's in a season is not normal." Exactly. I know Earnhardt had a reputation of driving hard, but his woes at Bud's team weren't caused by that in my opinion. That team had a history of mechanical problems even though they were a good team. By the time Dale rejoined RCR, they had very little issues with mechanical failures (save for 1985). Jimmie Johnson's dominance will continue for quite a while IMO. Nobody else out there right now has it all put together and has a driver as focused as the #48 team does. "Morgan-McClure is actually still around, barely - they attempted Bristol last fall with Kevin Lepage." And honestly, I'd be surprised if they ever made another start in the Cup Series considering their trademark number is now used by Kasey Kahne and Red Bull. But then again, Kahne is going to HMS next year and Red Bull might shut down entirely so that would make the # free again. Even from 1990-1996 when they ran up front and contended for wins they were involved in too much turmoil to stay on top. Didn't Ernie Irvan leaving them in 1993 result in a nasty lawsuit? That should never happen at any top team. That, combined with the fact that they didn't keep up with the times and fell behind in the late 90's (resulting in Sterling Marlin and Bobby Hamilton, both very good race car drivers leaving), and regressing afterwards led to their demise. 171. BON GORDON posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't understand what everyone is taking about. The competition is harder now than it ever was. I did a little research and went back in ten year intervals to 1981. 2011- 29 drivers who have 23.5 avg. finish or under. 2001- 20 drivers who have 23.5 avg. finish or under. 1991- 26 drivers who have 23.5 avg. finish or under. 1981- Only 12 guys raced full time and only 36 of the 104 drivers that competed that season had an avg. finsh worse than 23.5. Most didn't run very many races though. It's harder to get a Top 20 finish today than it's ever been. The competition (the cars) are so much closer together. Back in the old days not very many guys competed on a weekly basis so if you weren't Richard Petty or David Pearson or like 2 or 3 other guys you probably werent gonna even win. However, if you wanted a Top 20 you could probably get it if your car lasted the longest. Everyone complains about the racing today, but go back to the pre-modern era and the races were boring as hell. Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allsion, Bobby Isaac, Benny Parsons, Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip. If this wasn't your name you weren't doing a whole lot of winning. Thats why these old time guys racked up so many BIG numbers. It was them racing and then everone else racing in a slower less competative car. But I guess what I'm trying to say is you could still get a solid finish and there were overall less cars to compete with anyway. 172. Red posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's harder to get a Top 20 finish today than it's ever been." I would agree that from 1-30, the field is as deep as it's ever been. However, from 1-40, the field is as pathetic as it's been in 20 years. In 2011, a full 69% of the competitive cars finish in the top 20 every week. As long as a driver is piloting one of those 29 decent cars, he has a 2/3 chance of breaking the top 20. Compare that to 2001, when there were 42 legitimate fully-sponsored teams running every week. A driver in a competitive car had only a 48% chance of cracking the top 20, which is FAR less than the 69% of today. Now 1981 I totally agree with you - the stats for the top drivers were extremely inflated, because 3/4 of the field was hopelessly uncompetitive. Finish 5th in 1981 was like finishing 18th today. 173. Spen posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper : "so basically 14 cars are backmarkers who have absolutely no chance to compete." David Gilliland and Dave Blaney might argue that one. 174. Red posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Or the NCAA basket ball tournament. You forgot that." Allowing 68 teams into the Dance might seem excessive, but going by percentage it's actually the most exclusive playoffs in any major sport. There are 346 Division 1 college basketball teams, so 68/346 = .197 or 19.7%. And I'm certainly not thrilled about MLB adding two more playoff teams. Honestly I'd rather they just take the top two records in each league and play only the LCS and World Series. If you're gonna subject us to 162 freaking games, then the regular season should mean a lot. 175. Spen posted: 06.29.2011 - 12:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Playing from the other side of the fence though, The average start of the teams tells us more about how fast the teams are. The top 29 teams all have an average start of about 21.5 or better, while of the other teams, Trevor Bayne is the highest, at about 28.7. (I looked these numbers up last week, and I don't have time to check them again now, so that might not be qute right, but it's close.) 176. Red posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David Gilliland and Dave Blaney might argue that one." Outside of the plate races and road courses, neither of these drivers has had much of a chance to compete. I know Blaney finished 13th at Richmond, which is impressive, but his average position in that race was 26th, and he needed a bunch of cautions and the lucky dog to even finish on the lead lap. Other than that one exception, neither driver has finished in the top 20 at any regular track. If anything, Gilliland's run at Sonoma proves how little chances these guys have. David absolutely drove the piss out of that #34 jalopy, and yet it was still only good enough for 12th. Had he been piloting even an average car, he drove well enough to finish in the top 3. 177. Red posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, you're exactly right about average start being a good indicator of speed. All of the top 29 drivers have an average start of 21.4 or better. In a 43 car field, the median is 22, so every one of them has been better than average. Of course, when 29 out of 43 are better than average, that can only mean one thing: the other 14 are WAY below average. Here are the drivers in underfunded equipment: Gilliland: 34.8 Blaney: 37.2 Mears: 30.8 Robby: 36.3 Lally: 38.2 Raines: 40.7 Kvapil: 32.9 Cassill: 28.1 Then you have the start & park drivers: Nemechek: 34.4 Skinner: 36.7 McDowell: 34.5 Yeley: 35.1 After the top 29 cars, it's like dropping off a sheer cliff. 178. 00andJoe posted: 06.29.2011 - 3:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #172: Exactly. Heck, after the way the 36 ran at Talladega, Blaney might even be somebody to keep an eye on as a "darkest dark horse"... 179. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.29.2011 - 6:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Before 2002, it used to be possible for a five-race team or even a small, underfunded to all of a sudden pull out an upset and leave 315 laps at Bristol. 180. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.29.2011 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mean lead 315 laps at Bristol and win. 181. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.29.2011 - 7:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no more talent factor in racing outside of Le Mans (even then the best car always win, the difference is in the co-drivers lap times, varying by as much as 6 seconds). You can drive the wheels off of a crap car, and still not get a good finish. I always say you could put any Joe (even 83-year old Hershel McGriff) in Jimmie Johnson's car and he will still finish in the top 10 or win. 182. Cooper posted: 06.29.2011 - 9:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, your stats disprove your whole statement. The fact that only 20 drivers in 2001 had an average finish of 23.5, means that the there was no drop off at the back of the pack. There was many times in 2001, that good cars, with great drivers had a hard time cracking the Top 20. That's why everyone has a bad average finish. Heck the guy who finished 7th in the standings that year only had 14 Top 10's. That means all the stats through the field were dispersed evenly through the field. It wasn't as top heavy as it is today. And the perfect argument is this....Johnny Benson finished 11th in points with an average finish of 17.1! What does this mean? Finishing 17th in 2001 was a pretty damn good day. Does 2011 still have more competitive teams than the 80's and 90's Heck yeah. But not earlier in the decade. People frown upon the 2002 championship, but that year still stands as hardest year for competition. There was weeks that Gordon/Stewart/Marlin/Martin couldn't finish in the Top 20 because of competition. Stewart the champion had a Top 10 percentage of 58.3%. This remains the lowest in Cup history along with Kurt's 2004 season for a champion. I'm guessing you watched races in 2001, if not then I suggest you do. 183. Cooper posted: 06.29.2011 - 10:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In 2010, 26 drivers earned a Top 5 finish in the Cup Series. The lowest since 1993! LOL Here are the year-by-year statistics: 2010: 26 2009: 30 2008: 29 2007: 31 2006: 29 2005: 30 2004: 31 2003: 30 2002: 31 2001: 34 2000: 28 1999: 28 1998: 27 1997: 28 1996: 27 1995: 27 1994: 29 1993: 25 The highest of course goes to the year 2001, where 34 different drivers recorded a Top 5. Damn. 184. Anonymous posted: 06.29.2011 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude (#166), yes I do think Bayne is a bit too conservative, especially early in races. Every time there's a restart, he seems to lose about six positions. Ever wonder why he's never anywhere close to his teammates in these NNS races? Even when he ran well last year, did you ever see him actually make a pass in the top three to five, because I didn't, nor have I this year (except for one instance in California), except for the plate tracks. And his best finishes this year have all come in fuel mileage derbies, so yes he's just not assertive enough. Even before his illness, he was lagging well behind his teammates. However, if he gets his confidence back, I think you may see him closer to the front. however, what he did under the first caution period in this past weekend's NNS race is pure conservatism at its best (or worst) (saving fuel before catching the field, which cost him about 15 positions for the restart, leading to his problems later on in the event). As for lack of confidence being an issue, I think it defintely is, but he wouldn't be the first driver to suffer from that. The late Johnny Boyd once said that Billy Vukovich II lacked the confidence in himself, even going as far as to say that Vuky II was a better driver than he ever gave himself credit for. Benny Parsons also suffered from this for several years, but as Jackie Stewart once said, after winning the Daytona 500 in 1975, he seemed to get a confidence boost. And that was after he had already won the 1973 Cup title that he had a loss of confidence. Another driver that had seemed to lose confidence was Jeff Gordon, but he seemed to have gotten his back this year, especially at closing races, which he couldn't do for three years, so losing confidence even happens to the best of them. 185. Anonymous posted: 06.29.2011 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone else read about how Kurt Busch's marriage has apparently been falling apart over the last several months behind the scenes? Maybe I can see how he'd lose it at Richmond, even though I usually think a driver should rarely criticize their own crew. But for whatever reason it must have been cathartic for everybody, because everyone at Penske has been better since. It must be hard enough to handle the pressure of being a Cup driver, but to add in a crappy dissolving marriage on top of it has gotta be rough. 186. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about not identifying myself, as I wrote that last post. Sorry about that. And there is a difference between being consevrative and being too conservative, and Bayne, this year has, to me, been the latter. By the way, he didn't seem as conservative to me last year, as he actually ran better in Michael Waltrip's cars than he has in Roush's cars, despites the fact that Roush's cars are better. And there's nothing wrong about being conservative, as some of the greatest drivers in history were conservative drivers (does the name Dan Gurney ring a bell), but you can be so conservative that it actually works against you. And I'm surprised that his crew chief hasn't gambled to get him up front more often, because I know I would. When you have an aggressive driver, you can afford to gamble on being back in the field because your driver will get back to the front, but when you have a driver that's conservative, especially in traffic, you have to gamble to get him up front, since he won't get through the traffic as quickly, if at all. 187. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And also, 12345Dude (#166), thanks for your commendations about my post about Montoya, as well as Kahne's comments. I think that when you do something that's completely out of character, as were Kahne's post-race comments, that may say more than anything else that was seen or heard about the subject. And a lot of people don't remember that Montoya has not only seemed to have no respect for his competitors in NASCAR, but that has been a trait about him going back to his IndyCar days (such as that incident with Michael Andretti at Motegi), and he still doesn't get the memo that you need to respect your competitors if you want to get that same respect. Dale earnhardt, Sr. may have been the dirtiest driver in history among the greats, but at least he had respect for his fellow competitors, something that Montoya, as well as Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch, and others racing today seem to lack. And even worse, they don't even seem to care. Respect is something that drivers such as Gordon, Burton, Bobby Labonte, Stewart, and their contemporaries were told that they had to have for their competitors by those such as Earnhardt, Waltrip, Elliott, Wallace, Rudd, and Martin, as well as Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, Bud Moore, Dave Marcis, and Cale Yarborough, who were all actively in the sport when Gordon, Burton, and Bobby Labonte entered the Cup ranks. That is sorely missing today, and the hopes that drivers such as Trevor Bayne, Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., Austin Dillon, and the others in the next generation are like the older drivers of today, and have a deep respect for their competitors. Because if they do, they can teach the punks of today (Harvick, Ky. Busch, Montoya, among others) a few lessons about respect. 188. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon recently said that he intends to team up with Mark Martin for the upcoming firecracker 400 this weekend. By doing so, Gordon has effectively given up any chance of winning, or quite possibly, finishing among the leaders. After all, Martin virtually cost Tony Stewart a chance to win the Daytona 500 by not pushing him on the last restart. So we can kiss Gordon's chance at success Saturday night good-bye. So much for the momentum from his win (Pocono) and driving finish to second place (Sonoma) in the last three races. It would be intersting what would happen if he had a parnter that he could actually trust. By the way, why has Kurt Busch already gone on the record and said that Regan Smith (in a Chevrolet) would be his drafting partner. That may help Smith, but it would actually work against his own teammate, Brad Keselowski, who should be his drafting partner. now if something happened to Brad Keselowski, then I could understand Busch's thinking, since Keselowski is the only other Dodge driver on the circuit (not counting Robby Gordon). I wonder if Roger Penske is going to talk sense into Kurt. The only driver other than Keselowski that Kurt should have as a full-time drafting partner would be younger brother Kyle, but he's got his teammates Denny Hamlin and Joey Logano as potential drafting partners. But with the possibilty of over half the field wrecking, who knows what will happen at race's end. At least Richard Childress' drivers as well as EGR teammates McMurray and Montoya, as well as the Roush fleet of drivers (Edwards, Biffle, Kenseth, and Ragan) know they should work with each other, and possibly their pseudo-teammate Trevor Bayne. 189. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872: Is that why Jeff Gordon came within 300 feet of winning. Because Mark's a lousy drafter? 190. BON GORDON posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Mark is a bad drafter however I felt that Mark could've pushed Gordon a little harder through the tri-oval on the last lap. If you look at the replay at the end Jr. is on Johnsons bumper and Harvick is on Bowyers bumper. Mark was probably uncomfortable pushing Gordon through the tri-oval but its for the win. 191. Smokefan05 posted: 06.29.2011 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon recently said that he intends to team up with Mark Martin for the upcoming firecracker 400 this weekend. By doing so, Gordon has effectively given up any chance of winning, or quite possibly, finishing among the leaders. After all, Martin virtually cost Tony Stewart a chance to win the Daytona 500 by not pushing him on the last restart." Tony also hosed Robby. Tony was doing his best Milka and Donuts impression on anyone beyhond him. 192. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, NicoRosbergFan, it's just that Mark Martin has never been one that you can rely on at Daytona and Talladega through the years. He always makes the one mistake that costs him or, in the cases of Stewart at Daytona and Gordon at Talladega this year, someone else. And not to beat a dead horse, Martin's age doesn't exactly work in his, or the favor any any of his drafting partners' favors either. And usually, when there's a big wreck at Daytona or Talladega, Martin's usually right in the middle of it, though very seldomly of his doing. And, SmokeFan05, it's understandable that Tony may have "hosed" Robby, as you stated it. First, those two never have gotten along, and they drive different makes of cars. Stewart drives a Chevrolet and Robby a Dodge. 193. Talon64 posted: 06.29.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, why has Kurt Busch already gone on the record and said that Regan Smith (in a Chevrolet) would be his drafting partner. That may help Smith, but it would actually work against his own teammate, Brad Keselowski, who should be his drafting partner. now if something happened to Brad Keselowski, then I could understand Busch's thinking, since Keselowski is the only other Dodge driver on the circuit (not counting Robby Gordon). I wonder if Roger Penske is going to talk sense into Kurt. The only driver other than Keselowski that Kurt should have as a full-time drafting partner would be younger brother Kyle, but he's got his teammates Denny Hamlin and Joey Logano as potential drafting partners. But with the possibilty of over half the field wrecking, who knows what will happen at race's end. At least Richard Childress' drivers as well as EGR teammates McMurray and Montoya, as well as the Roush fleet of drivers (Edwards, Biffle, Kenseth, and Ragan) know they should work with each other, and possibly their pseudo-teammate Trevor Bayne." Kurt and Regan were one of the 2 or 3 fastest drafting duo's throughout Daytona Speedweeks, so it's no surprise they're continuing that this weekend. It doesn't look good that he's not drafting with his teammate but maybe Keselowski also has someone else in mind to draft with who he feels he'll work better with than Kurt. They're better off each doing what's best for themselves to win than work together and fail. Which is why I'm surprised Jeff Gordon isn't working with Trevor Bayne since they were also pretty quick in February. and speaking of Bayne, I don't see him as being THAT conservative. And if anything, being conservative helped him win the Daytona 500 since it stopped him from putting his car in the wrong places and the wrong time to keep the car together until the end; there were plenty of times during Speedweeks he eased up when things were getting crazy and it was being smart like that which made up for his lack of experience. Bayne might not be running up front as much as Stenhouse in NNS but Stenhouse has last season with Roush Racing and CC Mike Kelley while Bayne's in his first full year with Roush and CC Chris Andrews. And up until Road America his average points per race would've put him within 14 points of Stenhouse for the points lead. Roush is definitely in a good position if they don't keep Ragan and Carl splits with both Bayne and Stenhouse waiting in the wings to move up... if they can find sponsorship for them. 194. 00andJoe posted: 06.29.2011 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, why has Kurt Busch already gone on the record and said that Regan Smith (in a Chevrolet) would be his drafting partner." Given how Kurt's front bumper was cursed at Talladega, if I was Regan Smith I'd be running screaming as far as I could get from the 22 right now... [/OnlySlightExaggeration] 195. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TAlon64, I agree with you about Bayne's conservatism hepling him win the Daytona 500, but there were a combination of a lot of things that put him in position to win. First, there was that huge lap 29 crash that took out the Hendrick team (except Dale, Jr.), Roush Racing teammates Greg Biffle and Matt Kenseth, and numerous others. Then there were the engine problems that knocked RCR teammates Kevin Harvick amd Jeff Burton out of the race, and knocked Jamie McMurray out of contention. Then there were incidents that knocked drivers such as Montoya, Keselowski, Kahne, and others out as well. In fact, in many ways, this year's Daytona 500 was exactly like the 1975 race that Benny Parsons won. As for your statement about Bayne's points per race putting him in sight of the leaders if not for his illness. That may be true, but do you remember the story of Tom Sneva in 1978? That year, Sneva won the USAC IndyCar championship that year, even though he failed to win a race. But because Sneva drove conservatively on way to his second consecutive championship (he also won it in 1977), Roger Penske fired him at season's end and replaced him with Bobby Unser, a driver he knew would drive the car to it's true potential. In 1978, Sneva won seven poles, finished second seven times, and finished third another three times, I believe, but only led 117 laps the entire season. Bayne, to me, seems like a driver afraid to make mistakes, and someone needs to get him out of that. Stenhouse is not afraid to make mistakes, and that's why you see him up front, because he's not afraid to make mistakes. Even in his comments to the media, I get the feeling that Bayne is bascially admitting that he's afraid to make mistakes, and there's not a person I know of that can succeed if he's afraid to make mistakes, because you're then prone to make more. Why do you think the "prevent defense" doesn't work in football? Because you're not doing what got you there in the first place. Bayne needs to drive the car to his and its potential, or risk losing his ride. 196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.29.2011 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lots of stat based analysis going on here. I feel like a proud father. "I always say you could put any Joe (even 83-year old Hershel McGriff) in Jimmie Johnson's car and he will still finish in the top 10 or win." I disagree. Yes, the 48 car is freaking outstanding, but how many drivers could work with Chad Knaus? Another secret of JJ's success is the way he has swallowed his ego and allowed Chad to be Chad, and take a ton of the credit. JJ's ability to filter out all the non essential but very annoying chaos always surrounding him may be his greatest attribute. "By the way, why has Kurt Busch already gone on the record and said that Regan Smith (in a Chevrolet) would be his drafting partner. That may help Smith, but it would actually work against his own teammate, Brad Keselowski, who should be his drafting partner." 00andJoe touched on this, but I must say, as a Brad K fan, I am happy to hear this. Remember Dega? Brad was one of 3 people to have their day ruined by Kurt pushing them. Like 00andJoe said, I just feel sorry for Regan. 197. Frank posted: 06.29.2011 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, cjs3872 and other - awesome discussion on Dale vs Jeff. I will read it carefully all the way but now can't stand aside not pointing in my opinion the most important thing it those compression. It is Jeff Gordon who promoted Jimmie Johnson, gave him proper equipment and ONLY ONCE finished in standings better than Jimmie since they both raced full time! It is Jeff Gordon who owns #48 and officially shows to the world who is number one in HMS in Martinsville-1-2007. Texas-1-2010 could be turning back point but unfortunately didn't. Dale never ever ever would allow himself such a shame. Yes, he defended his own cars and literally payed his life for that but to loose to his teammate in overall season? Never. 198. Frank posted: 06.29.2011 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) * the most important thing in this comparison sorry about my English 199. Talon64 posted: 06.29.2011 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like 00andJoe said, I just feel sorry for Regan." Except they worked great together during Daytona Speedweeks so they've got a good chance of repeating that success. "In 2010, 26 drivers earned a Top 5 finish in the Cup Series. The lowest since 1993! LOL Here are the year-by-year statistics: 2010: 26 2009: 30 2008: 29 2007: 31 2006: 29 2005: 30 2004: 31 2003: 30 2002: 31 2001: 34 2000: 28 1999: 28 1998: 27 1997: 28 1996: 27 1995: 27 1994: 29 1993: 25 The highest of course goes to the year 2001, where 34 different drivers recorded a Top 5. Damn." 2001 was a hell of a season; there were 19 different winners representing FOURTEEN DIFFERENT TEAMS! Andy Petree Racing was a powerhouse, with both of their teams winning (#55 with Bobby Hamilton at Talladega, #33 with Joe Nemechek at Richmond). 2002 wasn't very far off from that, 18 different winners representing 11 different teams. Here's the year-by-years of different teams winning since 2001: 2001: 14 2002: 11 2003: 9 2004: 8 2005: 8 2006: 7 2007: 7 2008: 6 2009: 9 2010: 9 And there's already 7 different teams in 2011 who've won after 16 races with SHR, RPM, RBR, EGR and MWR having yet to win. So the upward trend compared to 2004-2008 looks to continue. 200. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank (#197), do you remember the fall race at Richmond in 2000? In that race, Steve Park, who drove for Dale Earnhardt, Sr. in Dale's #1 car, raced Earnhardt hard enough late in that race that Dale could not catch Jeff Gordon for the win. In effect, Park cost his boss a $1,000,000 bonus that Earnhardt was eligible for that night. However, Earnhardt not only wasn't upset, he was somewhat glad that Park raced him like he did, saying that Park was doing exactly what Earnhardt hired him to do. And two years earlier in Fontana, in one of the last great moments of his career, Darrell Waltrip, driving the #1 DEI car in place of an injured Park, raced Earnhardt hard late in that race, and passed him for what would be the final top 5 finish of his career. Earnhardt never finished in the top 5 there in his four Fontana starts, I believe. And by the way, Gordon tried everything he could to pass Johnson at the end of that Martinsville race, even trying the bump-and-run he used successfully on Rusty Wallace twice at Bristol in previous years on the last lap, but even that failed. Yes, gordon has finished behind Johnson in the points every year except Johnson's rookie season in 2002 (something the Chase has something to do with), but for the first time, Gordon actually has a crew chief close to, if not equal, to Johnson's, and one that excels at car setup equal to that of Johnson's. In other words, he might be racing against Johnson on equal ground for the first time since Johnson's second or third year. Gordon's two wins have come on tracks here car setup and driving skill actually mean something, while Johnson's only win this year came by an inch or two at Talladega, where car setup means less than anywhere else the ciruit races on. Also, when I'm involved in a conversation or dispute, I try to let the facts and stats tell as much of the story as they can, becuase they are the one thing that is indisputeable. 201. Talon64 posted: 06.29.2011 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an interesting fact relating to the Dale vs. Jeff debate: Thanks to JPM being a bull in a china shop and finishing 22nd, Dale Earnhardt now owns the best average finish of all time at Infineon at 8.6 (1 win, 4 top 5's, 9 top 10's in 12 starts). Jeff Gordon, with his 2nd place finish, is now 2nd at 8.7 (4 wins, 12 top 5's, 15 top 10's). 202. cjs3872 posted: 06.29.2011 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, Jeff Gordon actually has five wins at Infineon (1998-2000, '04, '06), not four. 203. Smokefan05 posted: 06.29.2011 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And, SmokeFan05, it's understandable that Tony may have "hosed" Robby, as you stated it. First, those two never have gotten along, and they drive different makes of cars. Stewart drives a Chevrolet and Robby a Dodge." I know they don't get along but Tony was right in the middle of the racetrack by himself. Robby had another guy pushing him, Robby wasn't going to slow down for Tony. Robby has had 3 previous shots to win the 500, 2003 and 2008 (both races he had a shot at winning) and this year. 2003 got ruined by rain and this year by a guy who doesn't know what "blocking" means. I know Robby isn't popular in the garage area but he is a good drafter with decent plate equipment. Casey Mears will most likely work with Robby next race (they were 'buddies' at Tally) but Robby will work with just about anybody. 204. Cooper posted: 06.29.2011 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 199. Talon64 posted: 06.29.11 - 5:00 pm "And there's already 7 different teams in 2011 who've won after 16 races with SHR, RPM, RBR, EGR and MWR having yet to win. So the upward trend compared to 2004-2008 looks to continue." The racing has been tougher and better this year. There's already been 27 drivers with a Top 5, which is more than last year and were only 16 races in. But NASCAR will never ever get back to where the sport was 10 years ago. We'll probably never see the abundance of teams,drivers, and sponsors that were just here a decade ago. Anyways, there has been some great discussions this week and I'm proud to be apart of it. We'll have plenty to talk about next week as I'm pretty sure Daytona will be interesting. 205. Smokefan05 posted: 06.29.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But NASCAR will never ever get back to where the sport was 10 years ago. We'll probably never see the abundance of teams,drivers, and sponsors that were just here a decade ago." I agree. But it isn't going to hell in a hand basket either. 206. Red posted: 06.30.2011 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But NASCAR will never ever get back to where the sport was 10 years ago. We'll probably never see the abundance of teams,drivers, and sponsors that were just here a decade ago." It's been a couple years since this has been discussed, but what do ya'll think about franchising? I know it goes against the tradition of NASCAR, but I think it might help the Cup series maintain a full field of competitive cars. It works great in Formula 1, because the teams can pour all their resources into being competitive, rather than just trying to survive. When you look at NASCAR, there's a bunch of cars every week that ARE just trying to pay the bills and survive, without any real hope of contending for wins. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really see the point in that. Let's say NASCAR awards 40 franchise cars. They could institute a revenue sharing system like the NFL and NBA, in which a certain portion of TV and ticket money would be shared equally with all the franchises. I know that sounds a bit socialist, but it works in other sports. It shifts the motivation from financial survival to winning, and that's ultimately what puts on the best show. NASCAR's financial structure reminds me of Major League Baseball. You have a handful of rich teams (Yankees, Red Sox) who spent extravagant sums of money in an effort to win. Then you have a middle class of teams who still want to win, but won't sacrifice too much profit to do so. And of course you have the teams like the Pirates and Marlins who don't care at all about winning and are just there to fill their owners' pockets with cash. In NASCAR, it's the same way. There are a group of teams (Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, Childress) that spend wildly ever season in order to field the best possible cars. Their only motivation is winning, money be damned. Below that you have mid-tier teams like EGR, MWR, and Petty, who still desire to be competitve, but are somewhat limited by their budgets, at least compared with the juggernauts. Lastly you have the start and park teams, who don't even try to compete, prefering to cash their winnings and run away with them. Imagine if we had 40 cars in every race that had the singular goal of winning? I know it's probably not realistic in this lifetime, but it would be freaking awesome. 207. Spen posted: 06.30.2011 - 12:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The highest of course goes to the year 2001, where 34 different drivers recorded a Top 5." Highest in recent history, perhaps. 1973 also had 34 drivers score a top-5 finish, and in 8 fewer races. 1972 had 36. But none of them come close to 1951. 74 drivers had a top-5 finish during that year! (Though only six of them had more than 5.) 208. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.30.2011 - 2:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Given how Kurt's front bumper was cursed at Talladega, if I was Regan Smith I'd be running screaming as far as I could get from the 22 right now..." I would be too. I understand that bumping which causes wrecks happens just about every restrictor-plate race, but Kurt was involved in numerous incidents that day. I was actually more angry about him causing Blaney to spin than the wreck with Brad, and I'm a Brad fan. Blaney really needed that good run. 209. JP88 posted: 06.30.2011 - 2:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm excited for Daytona...especially to see who works with who...I don't really like the 2-car tango butg it's still exciting 210. Frank posted: 06.30.2011 - 4:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 (#200) I don't know anything about that two races because I started watching Cup since 2004 Chase and unfortunately watch not so many historic races as I should. But basing on what I saw at Martinsville Gordon for sure didn't do everything to win that race. You can't compare that bump-and-run to Bristol because of speed difference - at Martinsville car is more stable through the corner and in Bristol (old, I mean) just an easy tap will likely cause a wreck like Gordon did to Kenseth in spring '06. Even in followed last lap battles at Martinsville Gordon was more agressive because it wasn't Jimmie against him. But still no wins there. So in my opinion Jeff could easily spun Jimmie out of last corner and keep 1-2 for HMS with himself as a winner. And I am completely agree with Dale - your teammate is your fiercest competitor. Hey, look at Stewart and Newman. Tony said that he will do the same he's done to Vickers even to Ryan. And Ryan racing everyone with the same toughness. I respect this and I really anticipated Jeff and Jimmie will continue racing hard after spring Texas race last year. Sadly enough, they didn't. 211. NicoRosbergFan posted: 06.30.2011 - 7:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel like Blaney should have won the Talladega spring race. I am a Gordo fan, but I was pulling for Blaney more than any other driver to win any other race ever. I differ, however, because Jimmie always treats Jeff like a piece of crap when he gets the chance. Jimmie deliberately changes drafts to avoid Jeff, even if it is harmful to both of their races. I wish Jeff would teach Jimmie that lesson he promised last year. 212. cjs3872 posted: 06.30.2011 - 9:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JP88, the "two-car tango" may not be the best way of racing at Daytona and Talladega, but I think it's better than what they had before when the entire field was in one bundle. I have that opinion for several reasons. One, with the 2-car drafts, the field gets spread out, so that if there is a problem, the chances of half the field (or more) being invovled in one incident are reduced greatly (but not elimiated, as this year's Daytona 500 showed). Secondly, the 2-car drafts have virtually eliminated blocking, something that I've wanted to see eliminated for many years. Blocking is a non-issue anymore due to the closing rate, which can be as much as 15 MPH. And third, you can actually go somewhere. When you had the field in one pack, often times, even if you were in second and third position, you were basically stuck. You couldn't make a move if your life depended on it. Now you can. And also, while the strategy of dropping to the back on purpose to avoid potential trouble is still a viable option, with the field spreading out, it's a much riskier proposition. At Talladega earlier this year when Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin did so, if it hadn't been for the crash that occurred when Brad Keselowski got spun out, both Martin and Gordon might very well have been lapped, as they were, at the time, about 30 seconds behind the leaders. 213. Smokefan05 posted: 06.30.2011 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One, with the 2-car drafts, the field gets spread out, so that if there is a problem, the chances of half the field (or more) being invovled in one incident are reduced greatly (but not elimiated, as this year's Daytona 500 showed). Secondly, the 2-car drafts have virtually eliminated blocking, something that I've wanted to see eliminated for many years. Blocking is a non-issue anymore due to the closing rate, which can be as much as 15 MPH. And third, you can actually go somewhere. When you had the field in one pack, often times, even if you were in second and third position, you were basically stuck. You couldn't make a move if your life depended on it. Now you can. And also, while the strategy of dropping to the back on purpose to avoid potential trouble is still a viable option, with the field spreading out, it's a much riskier proposition. At Talladega earlier this year when Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin did so, if it hadn't been for the crash that occurred when Brad Keselowski got spun out, both Martin and Gordon might very well have been lapped, as they were, at the time, about 30 seconds behind the leaders." Agree with this 100%. But it isn't going to last forever. So for now, we the "fans" are stuck with it. I also remember some old plate races in which when cars were single file, nobody passed anybody (2003 aarons 499). 214. DaleSrFanForever posted: 06.30.2011 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Let's say NASCAR awards 40 franchise cars. They could institute a revenue sharing system like the NFL and NBA, in which a certain portion of TV and ticket money would be shared equally with all the franchises." That's a good theory. Unfortunately the NFL is in a lockout, and the NBA will be in one by midnight tonight. In fact, a lot of insiders are saying there will be no 2011-12 NBA season. And I'm starting to wonder about the NFL. It just keeps dragging and dragging, with mettings and more meetings with nothing really getting settled. It seems like the owners, who are supposedly on one "side" of this disagreement against the players, can't even agree on what they want. So NASCAR will have to find some way to avoid that. I don't think it is a good idea for all the owners to be in collusion. Then again, our current environment allows Michael Waltrip to be an owner (after being bailed out of $25 million worth of debt by Kauffmann), so Red, you may be on to something. Speaking of Mikey, we all remember how he starred in the SPEED documentary titled "The Day" talking about the race Dale died in, with Michael riviting audiences as he recalled how unfair it was to him that his big moment was overshadowed, and how it still stings him 10 years later because his friend had to upstage him by dying in front of 10 million viewers (and by "riviting", I really mean "making us want to hang ourselves"). Well SPEED is gonna make a documentary about Richard Petty's 200th win. That is nice, it was a day that was huge for NASCAR. But they are going to call it "The Day: July 4th 1984". Can they please retire "The Day" as a title? Sure, the Dale documentary had some truly heart touching moments like his former sponsor rep remembering how devasted the family was when they were informed Dale had passed, or Ken Schrader remembering how he was gonna commiserate with his buddy after their Top 5 days were ruined in the last mile of a 500 mile race only to find a much harsher reality, something that still haunts him to this day (on the human scale, unlike Dale's employee that day). But Mikey hijacked it and made it all about him. He was basically doing what he does best. So I hope they choose a new title for it, and don't turn "The Day" into a series. 215. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 06.30.2011 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I also remember some old plate races in which when cars were single file, nobody passed anybody (2003 aarons 499)." I remember that race, there were only like 20 cars left on the track for 184 laps due to The Big One happening on Lap 4. Nobody really battled it out until the end of the race (when the famous "yellow line" controversy arose). 216. Anonymous85 posted: 07.01.2011 - 3:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF how many more times are you going to Bash Micheal Waltrip Granted I don't like the guy either but it is starting to get a little repetitive kind of like beating a dead horse into the ground 217. Anonymous posted: 07.01.2011 - 4:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So apparently Kyle Busch approached Kevin Harvick after Sonoma and offered a hand shake and said "Good race". A pretty nice gesture of sportsmanship if you ask me. But Harvick didn't seem to want any of it, and in his media time at Daytona, he called the whole incident weird. Is it that hard to just put aside your differences for one moment Kevin, and show some freaking respect? You can say your feud isn't over, continue to vow payback, but for chrissakes, you can appreciate that he made that one simple gesture that took up all of 5 seconds of your precious time. Kyle Busch came out the bigger man. I repeat, KYLE BUSCH came out the bigger man. I think Kevin Harvick might be the only driver who could do anything that would result in Kyle Busch, somehow, coming out the bigger man in a situation. 218. Frank posted: 07.01.2011 - 6:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Day : Remembering Dale Earnhadrt Sr. is really touching movie. Me and my friend watched it at hotel at Daytona and no one of us couldn't say a word even during commercials. Petty's 200th win was totally fixed Hollywood scripted etc. Bobby Allison proved that Yates developed "special" engine for Richard which was basically oversized. So I expect a lot of overhyping shit. 219. cjs3872 posted: 07.01.2011 - 8:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank, I think the whole conspiracy theory about Richard Petty's engine for the 1984 Firecracker 400 being oversized is bogus. First, what people don't know is that Petty and Bobby Allison, whose engines were both built by Robert Yates were the only two that could routinely pass Cale Yarborough in the Daytona 500 that year, but both were sidelined with broken camshafts. Then there's Yates, who, like Waddell Wilson, Yarborough's engine builder at the time, was never one to cheat. In fact, he was against that kind of thing. Both always played by the rules. So it was no surprise that Petty and Yarborough were the ones battling it out that day. Then there was the run to the caution flag. The only reason Petty beat Yarborough to the caution was that Petty was on the inside and had a slightly shorter distance to travel due to the dogleg, and that was the difference between Petty winning and Yarborough winning. After the 1984 season, Petty's car owner, Mike Curb decided to hire Dan Gurney to build his engines in NASCAR. (Curb and Gurney were already partners in IndyCar racing with drivers Tom Sneva and Ed Pimm, and Sneva had failed to qualify for the Daytona 500 in 1984 and '85 driving for Curb.) Petty rejoined his family team in 1986, but it didn't win again until the next-to-last race of the 1996 season. Curb remained a car owner until 1988 with drivers such as Ron Bouchard and Pimm, among others. Curb remains involved in the sport of auto racing today, mainly through an association with Cary Agajanian, a son of the legendary J.C. Agajanian. In fact, Curb's record company was the winning sponsor for this year's Indianapolis 500 with driver Dan Wheldon. That car, along with the car that Austin Dillon will make his Cup debut in later this month, which will be owned by Curb, carries the #98 in honor of J.C. Agajanian. In fact, Dillon's paint job will resemble "Ol Calhoun", the red, white, and blue roadster that Parnelli Jones ran the first official 150 MPH lap in driving for J.C. in 1962, and won the pole and the race at Indy in 1963, again driving for J.C. Agajanian. 220. Watto posted: 07.01.2011 - 9:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It probably bugs you since it has been fully sponsored all year and has still S&Ps every week it actually makes the field." -18fan Fully sponsored? The Big Red deal is very little money. Big Red basically handed them a couple of dollars to get some track time even though the car is parking. I'm talking in the region of 100 grand for the entire season. You need like 50-100 per race to compete. 221. Watto posted: 07.01.2011 - 9:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For what it's worth, the Carl Edwards quote about how he's never gone out and tried to wreck somebody was, in my opinion, sarcasm/a joke. I watched the video of that conference and it got a big laugh out of the reporters. He basically didn't want to talk about those incidents in response to someone's question about retaliations. 222. Anonymous posted: 07.01.2011 - 12:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When is DaleSrFanForever going to mention how the Kurt's divorce will affect Kurt's focus and how if will affect Kurt mentally since Kurt's divorce is now public? 223. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.01.2011 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle Busch came out the bigger man. I repeat, KYLE BUSCH came out the bigger man. I think Kevin Harvick might be the only driver who could do anything that would result in Kyle Busch, somehow, coming out the bigger man in a situation." I agree with that. I never thought it would even be possible for someone to be more immature than Kyle, especially someone in his mid-30's. But Harvick has surpassed Kyle in that category with the way he always clings on to a feud and drags it on forever. Kyle at least doesn't do that. 224. JimmieJohnsonsNeatlyTrimmedBeard posted: 07.01.2011 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle Busch came out the bigger man. I repeat, KYLE BUSCH came out the bigger man. I think Kevin Harvick might be the only driver who could do anything that would result in Kyle Busch, somehow, coming out the bigger man in a situation." "I agree with that. I never thought it would even be possible for someone to be more immature than Kyle, especially someone in his mid-30's. But Harvick has surpassed Kyle in that category with the way he always clings on to a feud and drags it on forever. Kyle at least doesn't do that." And it's not just that handshake either. Remember at Pocono when Harvick was all over Busch, and Busch didn't want anything to do with it? I'm sure Harvick is waiting for some big moment of revenge, but he's going to be the only one who hasn't moved on by that point. If anything, it's just going to make him look worse. I'm sure he'll get some satisfaction from it, some childish feeling of accomplishment, but the rest of us who don't have a stake in that feud are just going to look at him and shake our heads, wondering why he isn't more focused on solidifying his position in the upcoming Chase by winning more races, and not waiting for just the right moment to "get back" at Busch. I think Denny Hamlin's insight on the feud when he spoke with the media yesterday made a lot of sense. He said Busch isn't a driver that plays mind games. Some wondered if Busch's handshake was genuine, but why wouldn't it be? What kind of mind game would that be to respectfully approach another driver, offer a handshake, and say "good race"? Is Harvick supposed to be confused and think, "wait, why is he being nice? Oh fudge, now I can't focus, this new kind Kyle Busch is in my head!" Considering what has happened between Busch and Harvick, and Busch and Childress, I'm impressed he had the guts to even do such a thing. Over the past 3 seasons, I've noticed that one strength Busch has is how he moves on from an incident and doesn't let it simmer for weeks or months. Yes, he still reacts to a situation on the track in the heat of the moment, sometimes gets too aggressive, but after the race he usually vents once (which he really isn't even doing anymore this year, even after the Harvick incident) and its pretty much the end of it. You don't see him racing anyone differently, or bringing it up constantly in his interviews for weeks and weeks afterward. He doesn't run up on a guys bumper or make it harder to pass, just because they had some tiff earlier in the season. Mark Martin, Jeff Burton, and now Denny Hamlin have all said Busch is actually one of the fairest racers on the track when it comes to leaving room or getting out of the way, and I agree. His one problem is when he feels that respectful line between drivers has been crossed, he sometimes overreacts, as was the case with Keselowski at Bristol last year, or Harvick at Darlington. But if you don't touch him, he doesn't touch you. If you do touch him, he just might put you in the wall. But over time I see Busch's ability to move on from these incidents as a definite strength of his, and one more piece of the puzzle for him to become a complete driver. The only pieces he's missing are consistency, and turning a 20th place car into a top 10 car. I've been noticing he's had a few 20th place cars and pulled out some top 15's over the last year, and that's a start, but that's still not quite good enough. I know everybody likes to make fun of this idea of the "new Kyle Busch" when he seemingly keeps getting into trouble, but looking at the way he's dealt with all this stuff this season, I do think he's a different man than he was in 2008, and even 2009. Drastically different, even. If he can just figure out how to avoid the controversies to begin with, we could be drawing ever closer to a possible post-Johnson, Kyle Busch-dominated era. And if he keeps working on himself and his ability, I just might not mind it when it comes, and I think a lot of others will come around on him as well. Harvick....just might be too old and too stubborn to ever change. He might still win a championship, but he's just too set in his ways. Maybe it's all the boos, all the criticism, that's forced this slowly evolving change on Busch. Bit by bit, he's being ridiculed into becoming a driver, and a person, that could end up being a fan favorite someday. I know it sounds crazy right now, but just wait 10 years. 225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.01.2011 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I agree with that. I never thought it would even be possible for someone to be more immature than Kyle, especially someone in his mid-30's. But Harvick has surpassed Kyle in that category with the way he always clings on to a feud and drags it on forever. Kyle at least doesn't do that." I agree with you and the Anonymous guy you quoted. Only Harvick. Kyle has come out of this as the bigger man. Although to play devil's advocate, Kyle has had the constant mentoring of Joe and JD Gibbs and an entire organization that has 10 years of experience putting out PR fires ('99-'08). Meanwhile Harvick has Richard CHILDress, who encourages his drivers to be "controversial". If the roles were reversed, would Kyle have done so well? Don't get me wrong, I don't like either of them, and the fact they are so reliant on others to appear mature is pretty ridiculous. But we can't rule out the Gibbs/CHILDress factor. "When is DaleSrFanForever going to mention how the Kurt's divorce will affect Kurt's focus and how if will affect Kurt mentally since Kurt's divorce is now public?" Funny story: When his new gf hugged and kissed him in victory lane, I thought that WAS his wife. She was blonde, so I figured it was her. When people began saying his marraige was in trouble, I thought "where the hell are they getting that from? they were all over each other in victory lane". Turns out it was his new gf. So that explains it! But to answer your point, I don't think it will make that much of a difference. Kurt always seems to operate with chaos surrounding him, this should just be yet another thing to deal with for him. NOTE: While typing this in the computer room, I left the TV on SPEED. I could hear it, but wasn't really paying attention. Suddenly I heard somebody start talking and immediately became nauseated because I knew who it was. It was Geoff Bodine. All these years later and his voice still makes me cringe. 226. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.01.2011 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HA! Geoff is driving the Daytona race with an Earnhardt-Childress motor. That is the most ironic thing I've seen in a while. If you are in Mooresville NC and feel a rumbling in the ground, don't be alarmed. 227. 00andJoe posted: 07.01.2011 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Starting seventh in the Firecracker 400, Andy Lally. Do not adjust your set. 228. cjs3872 posted: 07.01.2011 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder who will drop back faster Saturday night, Trevor Bayne (starting second), Andy Lally (Starting seventh), Mark Martin (starting on the pole), or Jeff Gordon (starting fourth)? 229. cjs3872 posted: 07.02.2011 - 8:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you may not be totally accurate about Richard Childress wanting his drivers to be controversial. Yes, Dale Earnhardt and his replacement Kevin Harvick are (or were), as well as Robby Gordon, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement about that, especially if it isn't true. Jeff Burton and Clint Bowyer have been called many things, but controversial would be about that last thing you would call either of those two, and the same is true about Casey Mears and Dave Blaney, who both drove for Childress, or Paul Menard, who currently drives for him. 230. Spen posted: 07.02.2011 - 11:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint has had his moments. Remember that time he spun Hamlin out under caution during a Busch race? And to answer your question, Andy Lally. 231. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.02.2011 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's true, but he certainly seems pleased when one of his drivers (usually Harvick) starts some sort of fire. 232. cjs3872 posted: 07.02.2011 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, among those four, I agree, Lally would be my choice, but I expect all four to drop back within the first few laps of the race. Lally because of his lack of experience, Bayne because of his conservative nature, and both Gordon and Martin because Martin doesn't necessarily want to stay up front, either, and Martin's unwillingness to stay up front will force Gordon towards the back, as well, if Gordon intends to stay with Martin, which I think would be a huge mistake. Heck, I think he's got a better chance of being and staying up front drafting with Bayne, who will start right ahead of him. (David Ragan, who starts fifth, may force Bayne to stay up front longer than he ordinarily would want to.) 233. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.02.2011 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would like to believe that Harvick is only that immature in himself, but then again he did buy into the conservative mentality that RCR has (and still does, RCR's cars are just good enough right now that he can get away with it and still win). I spoke of Kevin being immature because he's in his 30's, but Childress has acted immature this year as well and he is in his 60's! This could very well be where he gets it from, since I never paid attention to him outside of his RCR tenure. 234. the_man posted: 07.03.2011 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 29th place finish: "We struggled from the get-go. ??Goodyear brought a new tire here and we couldn't get our UPS Ford to hook up from the first lap of the race. This was a brand-new car and we need to go back and revisit the things that we did differently than our teammates. We never gave up and I thought we were going to be okay during the mid-part of the race. We had that drive through penalty that hurt us a little bit, and this track is always one that we have to work hard at. We just have to look forward to the next couple of tracks that are pretty good for us." 235. 00andJoe posted: 08.15.2011 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #66 sponsor: Motor Racing Outreach 236. Robert Nelson posted: 07.12.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points Carl Edwards 161 Kyle Busch 144 Kevin Harvick 118 6th. Jeff Gordon 105 (6th driver to get 100 points) 237. Luke posted: 10.06.2017 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Mayhew should considered as DC because he qualified for Michael McDowell because McDowell were at Road America for xfinity race 238. RaceFanX posted: 01.22.2019 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was Kurt Busch's first road course victory in the Cup series but it wasn't his first NASCAR win at Sonoma. Busch won a race in the now defunct NASCAR Southwest Tour here in 1999 on the Winston Cup Series' undercard, a notable win in that it helped get Jack Roush to notice him and played into Busch moving up to the Truck series for 2000; starting his climb to NASCAR superstardom. While this was Kurt Busch's first win in the Pennzoil #22 Dodge it turned out to be his penultimate one for Team Penske. 239. SweetRich posted: 06.29.2020 - 9:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The commentators were Adam Alexander, Wally Dallenbach and Kyle Petty. The pit road reporters were Matt Yocum, Marty Snider, Ralph Sheheen and Chris Neville. 240. thecautionlightnews posted: 09.23.2020 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To date, Andy Pilgrim is the last British person to race in the cup series. Jack Hawksworth and John Jackson have raced in the Xfinity Series since. 241. Rich posted: 12.15.2020 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joining the race coverage were Larry McReynolds as the in-race analyst and Lindsay Czarniak as the studio host. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: