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  *Comments on the 2011 Pure Michigan 400:*
  View the most recent comment <#193> | Post a comment <#post>


  1.   Talon64 posted:
  08.19.2011 - 5:32 pm
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Greg Biffle wins his 7th career Cup pole, 1st since 2008 at Dover, and
just the 2nd ever pole for Roush at Michigan.

Dale Jr. gets his first top 10 start at a non-plate track since
Charlotte last season.


  2.   Talon64 posted:
  08.19.2011 - 5:33 pm
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Johnny Sauter attempted to qualify Robby Gordon's #7 RGM car but failed
to make the race, along with Erik Darnell and TJ Bell.

Trevor Bayne was the highest qualifying GOGH car in 20th.


  3.   18fan posted:
  08.19.2011 - 6:43 pm
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I think Matt Kenseth will be the guy to beat Sunday. He's always good at
Michigan, he's been good on the intermediate tracks, and especially when
he qualifies up front. This is only the seventh time he's qualified on
the front row in his career.


  4.   00andJoe posted:
  08.19.2011 - 6:52 pm
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Interesting tidbit: the starting grid is the fastest 43 cars, in order
of time, no exceptions.


  5.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.19.2011 - 6:55 pm
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Interestingly, other than Mark Martin, who has won at Michigan five
times, no driver in Sunday's race has won more than twice, though there
are about five or six drivers seeking a third Michigan win, including
all three of Jack Roush's lead drivers, two of which share the front
row. The others seeking a third Michigan win are Jeff Gordon and Denny
Hamlin. I don't think anoyone gets that third win, as my pick to win
this race is Jimmie Johnson.

Now, if you are looking for a couple of dark horses, look for Martin,
Earnhardt, Jr. Johnson's tenth row-mate Trevor Bayne, if the race plays
out perfectly for that team, and Tony Stewart to be a factor, as well.
If Bayne, or any of the Roush cars win their respective teams would win
for a record 12th time at Michgan, setting a record that the Wood
Brothers have seemingly always had. (If Bayne wins, they would
re-establish that record.)

On the other hand, the RCR cars struggled in qualifying yet again, with
the exception of Paul Menard, who should share some of his qualifying
tips with his teammates. Also struggling in qualifying were the two JGR
cars using JGR engines, while Denny Hamlin, using a TRD engine,
qualified fourth, as he tries for a fourth conseutive Michigan finsh of
either first or second. And did anyone notice that two of the three
Front Row Motorpsorts cars (34, 55) are unsponsored, along with several
other cars. how many will start-and-park in this race? By my count,
there could be as many as five or six, though I seriously doubt that the
#34 car would be one of them.


  6.   Spen posted:
  08.19.2011 - 7:22 pm
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Slightly off-topic, but in the Busch race, there were something like 50
cars on the entry list, but only 45 are listed as having qualifyed.
Anyone who has Speed know what happened?

Johnson winning? Risky pick. If Hendrick were up to 2009 level, I'd say
sure, but as it stands...

My top three picks are Biffle, Hamlin and Logano. Kenseth's a
possibility, though. I don't forsee a non-Gibbs or Roush win.


  7.   Talon64 posted:
  08.19.2011 - 7:29 pm
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Trevor Bayne qualifies in the top 20 for the 7th time in 12 races (20.4
avg start).

oh and I was wrong about the Dale Jr. fact, it's his first top 10 start
on an intermediate track since the Charlotte Chase race last season
where he also qualified 8th.


  8.   LordLowe posted:
  08.19.2011 - 8:01 pm
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I know This Race will be Very Dull & Unexciting so to make it more
interesting I suggest that anyone attending the race start up a few very
loud and very interesting chants loud enough to drown out the sound of
the cars and the chants I have in mind are as follows

This Race sucks
Screw This Race
Boring
I'D rather Watch Paint Dry
Where's My Refund
Two Thumbs Down,
Minus 5 Stars


  9.   18fan posted:
  08.19.2011 - 9:15 pm
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Spen, how can you pick Logano as one of your three picks to win in front
of Kenseth, Kyle Busch, or Carl Edwards. All three of those guys had top
5 finishes in the first race while Logano finished 18th and all three of
those guys outqualified Logano.


  10.   00andJoe posted:
  08.19.2011 - 10:30 pm
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Spen - re: Montreal: NASCAR's timing was a little wonky, for some reason
Robby Gordon's time didn't initially appear on the lineup page (it did
on live timing). The remaining two cars in question (two withdrew) were
the 52 and 89, which didn't register a lap (but were in the top 35).


  11.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.19.2011 - 11:34 pm
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Spen, the law of averages alone dictate that johnson win at Michigan,
and I think it will be in this race, but if he is not competitve with
his teammates, we will then know that it probably is not his year, and
that Jeff Gordon may well be Hendrick's best shot at the title this year.

And Talon64, you mentioned that Trevor Bayne qualified in the top 20 for
the 7th time in 12 attempts, the fifth time in nine attempts this year
on non-restrictor plate tracks, but the last two races he's had no
safety net. He had to qualify on time, due to not running the full
schedule, so he couldn't run the car as hard in qualifying as he would
like to have. So qualifying 20th, which was ahead of Carl Edwards, by
the way, was a pretty good accomplishment, and possibly a bad omen for
Edwards, who hasn't had the pace of his teammates this week, so far. It
would have been nice to see what he might have run if he was locked in.
I would bet he would have been in the top 15, where he pretty much had
practiced until others ran mock qualifying runs, and might have even
threatened to crack the top ten, but he can't take that chance, since a
mistake would have put him on the sidelines for this one.

And actually Spen, Kenseth's my pick for this one. He nearly won the
June race, but I think he gets it done this week. He's not flashy, so
he's rarely a trendy pick, but when the chips are on the table, he gets
the job done better than anyone else at Roush.


  12.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:46 am
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Remember, Kenseth turned the April Texas race this year, another
intermediate race, into a complete farce. Don't count him out until the
fat lady sings. No, that would mean that he won't even make it past the
national anthem. :) He will contend all day and don't discount him for
the win and a chase security net.


  13.   00andJoe posted:
  08.20.2011 - 10:24 am
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#46 sponsor: RetakeOurGov.com/Engine Parts Plus


  14.   Spen posted:
  08.20.2011 - 2:27 pm
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00andJoe: Thanks for the info. While they are in the top-35, remember
that it's only the top-30 that are locked in in Busch.

Cjs: Yeah, Johnson will win it one day. I just don't think this will be
the year. I'm calling it now. 2013. That's when he'll win.

18fan: Why do I have Logano in my top three? Pure gut instinct. For the
last couple of months, he's been racing like he actually wants his ride,
and after Pocono, I had a feeling that he'd do good this week. They're
both high horsepower tracks, so usually those who do well at one do well
at both. (See Denny Hamlin, Rusty Wallace, Ricky Rudd when he had a good
car, Mark Martin, even though he never managed to 'seal the deal' at
Pocono, it's always been one of his better tracks.) And since Gibbs has
had the better of Roush at these types of tracks so far this year, I
figured that'd give him a better shot than Matt or Carl. And I have him
ahead of Kyle, because he's never won here in Cup, I believe. And he's
never won Pocono either. So I just don't think this will be his race.

Then again, my gut instinct is not always reliable. Here's a little list
of some things I've been majorly wrong about over the years:

1970: "Pete Hamilton's gonna be a star."
Early 1973: "Petty will probably win three in a row this year."
Mid-1978: "Petty's toast. He should just retire already."
Mid-1981: "Bobby's gonna win it this year! Jaws hasn't got a chance."
1985 after race 20: "Bill's gonna win the championship, and he'll break
Petty's win record!"
Richmond fairgrounds 1986: "With driving like that, it's no wonder that
Earnhardt hasn't won a second championship. Trust me, 1980 was a fluke.
He's never gonna win another one."
Mid-1986: "Bobby Hillin's got a bright future ahead of him."
1988: "Phil Parsons really seems to be getting the hang of this. He may
have a decent career yet."
February 1989: "Five bucks says Larry Pearson wins rookie of the year."
Spring 1991: "Michael Waltrip's gonna win a race soon." (By soon I meant
within the next decade, of course!)
Martinsville 1991: "Darn it, Harry's not going to win four in a row today."
North Wilkesboro 1991: "Harry's gonna win five in a row!"
1993: "At this rate, Terry's never gonna win again."
1994: "Loy Allen's someone to watch." (Purely for humour value, ultimatly.)
Late 1995: "Yates is keeping Jarrett next year? Why???"
Mid-1998: "Jeremy Mayfield will be the first driver to win a
championship for Penske."
Atalnta 2000: "The first, but far from last time we'll see Jerry Nadaeu
in victory lane."
Early 2002: "This is gonna be Sterling's year."
Homestead 2003 white flag lap: "Bill's gonna win the last Winston Cup
race!!!!...... oh ****"
2004 post-season: "Next year I think the title hunt will come down to
Johnson and Junior. My money's on Johnson."
2007 pre-season: "Ricky Rudd's going back to Yates? This is gonna be
good." (Correction, this is going to be painful.)
2008: "Burton's gonna pull it off this year."
2009 post-season: "This was close, but next year Mark's gonna win the
title." (I think I said that after 1990, '98, and 2002 as well.)
Early-mid-2011: "Carl Edwards is definitly leaving Roush after this
year. And David Ragan will get the sack after not winning again. Then
Roush will move up both Stenhouse and Bayne."

The moral of this story is, I should never use the word 'gonna' when
making predictions.


  15.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.20.2011 - 2:47 pm
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Spen, sounds likes you could be in for a job as a weather forecaster,
because even they don't get THAT many predictions wrong, though if
things had gone differently in some of those instances, some of those
predictions might actually have come true.


  16.   00andJoe posted:
  08.20.2011 - 3:24 pm
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Nationwide comment:

What in blazes just happened with that cornerworker?! Was he asleep or
something?!


  17.   18fan posted:
  08.20.2011 - 3:58 pm
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Spen, I understand your thinking. I agree that Logano has been driving
like he wants to keep his ride, which he needs to keep doing because
there are rumors that Gibbs is going after Clint Bowyer, as are Roush,
RPM, and MWR. I just think the way Matt runs at Michigan, especially
when he qualifies well, that he will be the guy to beat and although
Kyle has never won at Michigan in Cup, he had a great shot to win this
spring and he has had a lot of good runs at Michigan that he never
either closed out the good run or didn't get the win.


  18.   LordLowe posted:
  08.20.2011 - 5:46 pm
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The Marcos Ambros Montreal Jinx is over


  19.   Spen posted:
  08.20.2011 - 6:02 pm
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Hey, 48 years of watching Cup, and I've been wrong 24 times. So that's
only one mistake every two years, a little better than the weather
channel, right?


  20.   StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted:
  08.20.2011 - 6:34 pm
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Marcos Ambrose is possibly the best road course driver I've ever seen,
and I would not be surprised if he wins 4 of the next 5 road course
races. I also believe he will win an oval someday.


  21.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.20.2011 - 6:43 pm
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00andJoe, you are referring to the first caution period of that race. It
would have been a terrible crash if you didn't have someone like Trevor
Bayne, because his instinctive ability to avoid trouble once again saved
a serious crash from happeneing. And Bayne was none too happy that he
wasn't warned about that car sideways blocking the track. Apparently, he
didn't have any spotters in that area to warn him of trouble, which
occurred in a blind corner, plus he was right behind another car. How he
ever avoided clobbering that car, or the one he was trailing, is beyond
me. Bayne said during that caution that he almost died, which I think
was a great exaggeration, but he also said that he was never so scared
as he was at that moment. Bayne later hit the fence at the same point,
but was running as high as fourth late before agrressive driving by
others dropped him back out of the top 20, where he spent the entire race.

Meanwhile Spen, since you've seen all the greats, who do you think is
the greatest NASCAR driver of all. After all, if what you said is true,
you've been watching the sport since 1963, the year of the Wood
Brothers' first Daytona 500 win, and the year of Fireball Roberts' last
speedway win, the 1963 Southern 500. Kudios to you for going through all
the bad times the aport has seen. In contrast, I've only been following
the sport since 1989.


  22.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:00 pm
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Spen, some of your predictions were rightfully thought, such as Nadeau
winning more races, Marlin winning the 2002 championship, Dale Jr
contending for the 2005 championship, David Ragan getting fired. At the
times of these instances, I too thought all of these things were going
to happen because all of the signs pointed to "Yes, count on it".

Turns out Nadeau had the worst luck of any NASCAR driver I've seen since
I started watching the sport (yes, even more so than Steve Park. At
least Park won multiple times and was headed for a top 10 points finish
in '01) and injuries ended his career in '03.

Marlin was injured from earlier soreness from a crash at Richmond, then
his Kansas wreck did in the deal. He was somewhat competitive when he
came back from his injury, but wasn't the same. Plus it didn't help that
Ganassi was going downhill.

After Dale Jr's 2004 season, I thought he was headed for a career with
multiple championships won and at least 35-40 wins. Since then, he has
won a pedestrian 3 races and has only finished in the top five in points
once since then (5th in 2006).

And ever since 2009 ended, I have been expecting David Ragan to be
fired. 2008 and this year have been the only times he's come close to
being competitive, and he's still only been sub par even then.


  23.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:06 pm
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Too bad for Robby's car. At least he has the Montreal race where he
should have a great shot of winning. As long as he doesn't slam into the
back of Tags, smash the hell out of his front end, and bust his oil
cooler. Oh wait....

Spen, that list is great, and true. Here are a few of mine:

1990: North Wilkesboro has to be the fastest track in the world! (I was 6)
1992: Dale, you need to ditch RCR and those Luminas and get in a Ford!
1993: This Gordon kid can run fast, but he can't go a race without
wrecking. He is gonna run Hendrick out of business.
1997 Southern 500: Earnhardt's done. I just hope he can keep his health.
Fall Charlotte 2001: Who the hell is Jimmie Johnson? Why did Gordon pick
him?
2003: Ricky Rudd is going to lead the revival of the Wood Brothers.
2003: Ryan Newman will win 5 consecutive championships (exaggeration,
but I thought his future was brighter than JJ's)
2003: Bobby Labonte has one, possibly two more titles in his future.
Mid-2003: There is no way in the world they will take the Labor Day date
from Darlington.
Post-2003: Surely they won't even consider this stupid 10 race playoff idea.
2004: Dale Jr has multiple championships in his future.
Labor Day 2004: Sadler has made the leap, he has many more wins in his
future and some championship contentions.
2005: This Carl kid is really a great guy and a breath of fresh air.
Homestead 2005: This is the straw that breaks the 48's backs. Their
window is closed.
2006: Jamie Mac is going to light it up at Roush.
Fall Dega 2006: This year will DEFINITELY break the 48's backs.
2006: Surely they will change the appearance of that new car before they
actually compete with it next year, they aren't going to put THAT on track.
2007: Rusty will be a great commentator for NASCAR. This is a can't
miss, that's for sure!
2007: Good Lord this Dinger guy sucks, he was thrown to the wolves, he
will never be a respectable NASCAR driver.
Summer 2007: Truex is the next big star. Lord knows how many more wins
are in his future.
2007: Gordon will at least tie The King and Earnhardt's championship
record, possibly break it. Steve Letarte knows how to call a race.
2007: Clint Bowyer will win a lot of races over the next few years.
2008: June will win a lot of races with HMS.
Vegas 2008: Well Cale, your consecutive championship record is safe!
2008: Carl and Kyle are going to dominate the next few years.
Indy 2008: This isn't really happening. This is a bad dream that I will
soon wake up from.
Dega 2008: Tony cleary forced Regan below the line, NASCAR will award
Regan the win.
2009: DEI and Ganassi merging? Two sinking ships joining that are going
to sink together.
Cali 2009: Kenseth is going to have a legendary season.
Atlanta 2009: This is going to be Mark's worst year ever.
Dega 2009: As if having JJ, Gordon, and Mark isn't enough, HMS has found
their future. Brad is going to win a lot of races for HMS beginning next
year.
Late 2009: Brad is definitely not going to Penske for the long term.
2010: Jamie Mac at EGR? Disaster.
2010: Gordon is done.
Summer 2010: Brad, what the hell did you do? Why did you go to Penske?
You will never accomplish anything there. All you are doing is
contending for NWide races and being totally irrelevent in Cup races.
You could have just hung around JR Motorsports (an arm of HMS) and be
doing the exact same thing, contending for NWide titles and not running
Cup races, which you might as well be doing anyways. At least there you
might get the next open HMS seat.
Texas 2010: Denny is going to be the champion this year, and I am going
to puke.
Richmond 2011: Penske Racing is in shambles. Brad has ruined his career.
2 and 1/2 weeks ago: Good Lord! Look at Brad's ankle! He will need a
relief driver for Pocono, that is if he can even start.


  24.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:09 pm
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"Richmond fairgrounds 1986: "With driving like that, it's no wonder that
Earnhardt hasn't won a second championship. Trust me, 1980 was a fluke.
He's never gonna win another one."

Understandable!

"North Wilkesboro 1991: "Harry's gonna win five in a row!"

I was at that race, and I was thinking the same thing. He was stinking
it up.


  25.   LordLowe posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:41 pm
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DSFF If the Dinger guy you're referring to is A.J Allmendinger because
if he is well he still sucks


  26.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.20.2011 - 7:59 pm
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If he hadn't run practically out of brakes in that race at North
Wilkesboro late in 1991, Gant would have won five in a row.


  27.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.20.2011 - 8:03 pm
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Actually he cut a brake line. Saw it on ESPN Classic.


  28.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.20.2011 - 8:11 pm
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DSFF, cutting a brake line would pretty much put you out of brakes. I
didn't know why he ran out of brakes, I just knew that he he did. Thanks
for informing me and other posters just why he did have brake trouble
late in that race. He might still have won anyway if Dale Earnhardt
hadn't used his head and got to Gant's outside, where his problems would
be magnified.

The brake issue of that race reminds me of the trouble that so many had
in today's Nationwide race in the same department. I'd say about 15
drivers in the race at Montreal today had brake issues, of one degree or
another.


  29.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  08.20.2011 - 9:13 pm
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Harry Gant broke an O-ring, a 10 cent part, costing him $150,000.


  30.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.20.2011 - 10:28 pm
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An O-ring? Didn't that take Teo Fabi out of the 1983 Indianapolis 500?


  31.   Spen posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:24 am
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Oy, I just learned that there's a limit on how long a post can be. I
just spent three hours typing, and now it's gone. Sorry, but I am *not*
re-typing that tonight. Maybe tomorrow. So Cjs, short answer: Bobby
Allison.


  32.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:02 am
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cjs: Teo Fabi broke a fuel filter.


  33.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:41 am
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Spen, you're almost right. I currently have Allison second behind
Richard Petty, though Jeff Gordon may soon move ahead of Allison into
second, in my view. I am glad that I'm not the only one to have such a
high opinion of Bobby Allison. After all, many don't think so highly of
Allison, mainly because he only won one championship (1983). But
championships should not be the be-all and end-all of things. There are
other factors to judge greatness by, especially in auto racing. One is
the ability to win the big races, and before Jeff Gordon came along,
nobody won more big races than Allison did, as Allison was the only
previous driver to win each of the sport's crown jewels at least three
times. His 13 crown jewel race wins stood as the standard, and he would
have had more, if NASCAR had raced at Indy in his era.


  34.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:44 am
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Anonymous, I thought that an O-ring malfunctioned on a pit stop, causing
the fuel valve not to be able to open, with the tank not being able to
take on any fuel as a result. At least that's what the narration of that
year's official Indy 500 film said. Your statement as to what happened
actually makes more sense.


  35.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 1:43 pm
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NASCAR Bullshit Caution Count: 1


  36.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 1:54 pm
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Edwards out, Kyle and Jimmie seem off today, could be a Biffle-Kenseth
duel all day because the Penske cars don't seem to be able to run with
them.


  37.   Brad posted:
  08.21.2011 - 2:06 pm
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18Fan: I think Kyle is off but Jimmie is good. Jimmie and Happy seem to
have the best lap times but they had some problems on the 1st pit stop.


  38.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 2:14 pm
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Yeah, Jimmie just had a bad first run, but he's moving now. Kyle got up
toward the front now due to good pit stops, but he's still not very
good. Biffle looks to have a extremely fast car, but I think Jeff Gordon
is going to be a car to beat.


  39.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 2:33 pm
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Now Kyle has one of the fastest cars on the track. Kasey Kahne also
seems to fast and Jeff Gordon seemed to be slower when the sun came out.


  40.   Brad posted:
  08.21.2011 - 2:46 pm
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Decent race but I am getting tired of the tire stategy! Still a better
race than Bristol will be most likely


  41.   . posted:
  08.21.2011 - 2:53 pm
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How about that 4 wide move by Brad Keselowski? He's driven from 17th to
6th now since the restart.


  42.   Frank posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:04 pm
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Fake caution even before 1st round of GPF? How low could they go?!

Glad that have a lot of things to do this night.

Spen, DSFF - your lists of mistakes are hilarious. Not because I am
laughing on you, but because most of it really seemed that way!


  43.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:13 pm
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I was wrong when I said Robby Gordon would win in the 28 at Talladega in
1993. Wow

I also was wrong when I said Dale Earnhardt would win the Daytona 500
from 1986-1999, 2001, except for one time in 1998. I didn't think there
was a chance in hell he would win in 2000 with the new packages they had
to run.


  44.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:15 pm
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Looks like the 24 is the best with the cloud cover but is average when
the sun is out.


  45.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:26 pm
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Two tires or gas only?

One thing about it there won't be a fuel mileage race at Michigan this
year...


  46.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:28 pm
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Whoa, Jimmie just hit a homerun


  47.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:30 pm
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I think you have to take 4 now since the 48 caught a break and was able
to make a 4 tire stop while the caution flew...


  48.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:34 pm
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Another great break for the 48 team. We'll see if he can stay up there
against the 17, 24, and 18 though.


  49.   . posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:34 pm
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Jimmie Johnson found that golden horseshoe again.


  50.   RLB posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:47 pm
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Nascar is so full of shit with the "debri Cautions".


  51.   RLB posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:50 pm
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I'm a Gordon fan, so this fake race ending has got me down.


  52.   Spen posted:
  08.21.2011 - 3:56 pm
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Retyping now.

DSFF: "This Gordon kid can run fast, but he can't go a race without
wrecking. He is gonna run Hendrick out of business." I remember thinking
at Atlanta in '92 that I couldn't imagine what Benny Parsons saw in that
kid.
"Sadler has made the leap, he has many more wins in his future and some
championship contentions." Oh yeah! Hard to belive how high we thought
he'd climb back then.
"Denny is going to be the champion this year, and I am going to puke."
My thought was that either Hamlin wins, I puke, Johnson wins, I puke,
Harvick wins, I *really* puke. A bit of a no-winner for me.

Oh, and here's another good one. Phoenix 2005: "Kyle seems like the more
level-headed of the Busch brothers. Not that that's hard."

"Understandable!" I'm glad you get it. My sister kept bringing it up for
the next ten years whenever I'd start mouthing off predictions.

Cjs: "you're almost right" I believe that there is no real right or
wrong answer to this question (okay, if you say Buckshot Jones, you're
wrong). It's mostly subjective, based on whatever traits you value most
highly.

I've been watching Cup since 1964 (when I said 48 years, I meant that
this is my 48th season). But I was only four years old at the time, so
some of my memories are quite hazy. I haven't seen all of the ledgends.
I never saw Herb Thomas (who my dad maintained until his dying day was
the greatest driver he ever saw). I never saw Tim Flock or Lee Petty,
either. I have no memories of Joe Weatherly, Rex White, or Fireball
Roberts. (Well, I do remember Fireball's crash. I believe that's what
caused my lifelong fear of fire.) I have little to no memory of Ned
Jarrett, or Junior Johnson. (As drivers, anyway.) And I only saw Buck
Baker and Curtis Turner well after their primes. So I can only judge
based on those I've seen.

At this point, I went into an absurdly long essay detailing arguments
for and against Petty, Pearson, Earnhardt, Yarborough, Gordon, Waltrip
and Allison. Since we're agreed on the top two, I'll only recreate those
ones.

If the question was who the most successful driver in history is, then
it's Petty without a doubt. And I believe that far too many people try
to undermine his career. Even if you go strictly by modern-era rules,
which say that a race has to be at least 200 miles to count as a points
race, Petty would still have 115 wins, far more than any other driver in
history. (And for comparison, under those same rules Pearson would have
57 wins.) While a few of his championships were rather cheap (1971 in
particular), his outstanding drive in '79 shuts up any who claim he
never had real competition. And if Mario Andretti is right, and short
track racing is the best test of driver skill, then Petty's a clear
winner. On any short track, it was always a question of who could beat
Petty. Unless something broke, he was almost certain to win. And even
when something did break, he'd still win it anyway. I remember this one
race at Nashville, I want to say it was 1972, where Petty was 14 laps
down early in the race, but he still came back and won. Best car in the
field or not, that's still incredible. Not even Johnson is quite as good
at rebounding. And unlike Ned Jarrett or Bobby Isaac, he could hold his
own on the superspeedways too.

But there is still the question. How much of Petty's success was the
driver, and how much was the team? Compared to some of his
contemporaries, Petty had a pretty smooth road. He had a steady ride
with Lee Petty Engineering (later Petty Enterprises), he had full
manufacturer support from Plymouth for most of the '60's, steady
sponsorship from STP throughout the '70's, and most importantly, Dale
Inman as his crew chief for a good twenty years. There was an awful lot
of consistency in his career compared to Allison.

You like using 'major wins' in your arguments. And Petty's seven Daytona
500 wins, in an era when the 500 truly mattered, is a huge trump card
that doesn't get the credit it deserves. But on the other hand, he only
had one win in the Southern 500, didn't win the 600 until '75, and only
won the Winston 500 at the tail end of his competetive career.

Another argument is that he didn't adapt to the '80's as well as Allison
did. There are a number of reasons for this, the main ones being his
neck injury in 1980, Inman leaving, a poor decision to run Pontiacs
starting in '82, and leaving the team for Mike Curb in '84. But
regardless of why it happened, it still did. For the most part, his
career just didn't age as well as Allison's. (Though I do give him a lot
of credit for winning twice in Mike Curb's garbage.)

And I'm not sure how well Petty would have done if he'd driven in this
era instead of the one he did. The reduced number of short tracks may
have limited his success a bit, and his strategy of letting the race
come to him, while perfect for the '60's, doesn't work quite so well
anymore. It can work, as Kevin Harvick can attest this year, but using
Harvick as an example again, it can also lead to a three year winless
streak.

Now, I'm not trying to put down Petty by any means. He's still the king,
and nothing will ever change that. I have a very high level of respect
for Petty, both for his accomplishments, and as a person. After all,
he's the only one who ever managed to get my dad to admit he was wrong
about anything. That alone makes him a hero in my book.

Now, onto Bobby Allison. "Points racing" did not exist in Allison's
vocabulary. And he was far too stubborn for his own good. But that's the
extent of what I can say against him. You could put him in most any car,
and he'd win with it. He won races with 13 different teams throughout
his career. I don't think anyone won more races without manufacturer
support in the '60's. And when he did have it, look out. Like Gordon, he
could win on pretty much any track (except Martinsville), and unlike
most of the ledgends, age didn't slow him down much. He was still
winning at fifty, and if it wasn't for the accident, I don't think that
win would have been his last. And how about that 1972 season. Ten wins,
a modern-era record of over 4000 laps led, and extremely high
consistency, only outdone by Petty having 28 top tens to his 27. Really,
that was the best season Junior Johnson's team ever had, even without
the title. And with every single team he drove for in his career (and
there were a lot of them), they always ran better with him than they did
either before or after. The only exception is Bud Moore, who had a
better season - fifteen years earlier.

I know I went more in-depth last night, but I can't remember what I
wrote. But when it came down to it, I based my decision on one simple
question. Who do I think would have had success in any era, at any
track, with any half-decent team, and with any crew chief? For me, Bobby
was the only one who fit all those requirements. I really think that
he'd have adapted to today's NASCAR better than Petty. But that's only
my opinion.

Meantime, we've got a race to finish! Come on Mark, restart like you
want to win it!


  53.   Spen posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:06 pm
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Well, I was right about a Gibbs car winning, anyway. Right church, wrong
pew.


  54.   00andJoe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:06 pm
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"fake race ending"

...oh, please.


  55.   00andJoe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:06 pm
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Way to go Kyle!

I'm REALLY liking Brad these days. That team is putting it all together
just at the right time.


  56.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:07 pm
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For the first 40 laps of this race I thought Kyle would be lucky to
finish in the top 10. They adjusted on their car right and Kyle drove it
up to the front and did a great job. When he drove through all the cars
that took two tires much easier than Biffle, who at that point was the
best car, I knew he could win. It would've been interesting to see what
Gordon could've done if the end of the race was under cloud cover.


  57.   RLB posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:07 pm
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wow, every caution in this race benifited Double J, and Gordon gets his
record breaking 282 Top 5 stolen away from him for the 2nd time in 3
races by the same mediocre driver.


  58.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:08 pm
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I hate to see Kyle win, but at least I did start him in my A list this
week along with the 2 and 39 in B


  59.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:17 pm
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Kyle wins...probably will see 3 more wins from him next week at Bristol...


  60.   . posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:19 pm
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Does anyone know why Greg Biffle slid to 20th at the end of that race?


  61.   BON GORDON posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:32 pm
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Ugh!!!! Ive never been so mad over a 6th place run before today. Gordon
had AT LEAST a 3rd place car, arguably the best car and has handling
issues over the last 30 laps ruin his chances. Positives he ran well and
has led over 22,000 laps. Amazing!


  62.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:38 pm
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Biffle fell to 20th because I had him in the race pool today. DAMNIT!!!!!

JJ has reclaimed his horseshoe. If it wasn't for that insanely fast JGR
car he would have won. Harvick needs to try to get it back. Of course as
slow as they have been lately, 5 golden horseshoes won't help them.

But this begs the question: Why the HELL is JGR going to TRD motors?
Yeah, the JGR motors have reliability issues, but they are FAST!!!!! The
TRD motors are nowhere close to Hendricks, Penskes, ECR's, or Yates.
This is a huge mistake. I'd go with the speed and take my chances of it
holding together over the last 10. Look at Denny's stinkbomb today. I'm
sure they will do better than the other Toyota teams, but still.


  63.   Brad posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:39 pm
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How bout ole Brad K? Is this boy on a roll or what? They need to look
out for him when the chase starts as long as he keeps this up. Who
woulda thought he had it in him? I knew he could win Busch races and
championships but I never thout he'd make it in Winston Cup! This is not
a fluke folks! He has won at Pocono, led a few laps and finished 2nd on
a road course and was patient all day today and played it safe and
finished 3rd. He has true talent. Maybe not championship talent but
enough to contend for one at least. And an interesting note: Kevin
Harvicks best finish the last 8 weeks is 6th at Watkins Glen and he only
has 3 top 10s in that span yet he picked up another spot in points today
and kept himself in the top 5. Watch out for him in the chase also. He
is a sleeper. He's got some good tracks comin up: Bristol, Richmond, NH,
and the rest of the chase for that matter...


  64.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:43 pm
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Glad to see the love for Bobby Allison. The big reason, IMO, that he won
"only" one championship is the constant ride shuffling and lack of
continuity that highlighted his career. Even with all the upheavel he
still won EIGHTY FIVE times (kiss my ass NASCAR, Bobby has EIGHTY FIVE
wins). He deserved to be in the HOF ahead of Darrell and Cale.


  65.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:47 pm
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DSFF, I thought that Gibbs and TRD were combining their engine efforts,
even though what I thought that I heard is that they are basically going
to be TRD engines. Kyle gave a bunch of shout outs to the JGR engine
shop, so that shows what Kyle thinks of the move.

I knew when Harvick started saying that he was sick of passing the same
cars all day that he would be stuck back there racing with those guys
for the rest of the race.

Biffle was horrible for the second half of the race and Kenseth got
gobbled up on the GWC by the cars with fresh tires.

There is a very good shot that Kyle goes into the chase with 6 wins with
Bristol and Richmond coming up.

I know they didn't get the finish they should've, but the 24 team has to
feel good about the car they had today. Compared to how mediocre they
were on the 1.5-2 mile tracks early in the year compared to now, they
will be championship contenders for sure.

Another sub par race for Montoya.


  66.   LordLowe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 4:51 pm
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Brad keselowski gets his 3rd straight podium finish so much for DSFF's
Prediction that his move to Pesnke would destroy him


  67.   00andJoe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:06 pm
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#78 sponsor: Furniture Row/Farm American
#37 sponsor: Engine Parts Plus


  68.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:08 pm
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Biffle can't find any damn luck. I thought by now he'd have a couple of
wins.

Jimmie Johnson is returning to form, just in time too, as the cha$e will
be starting in several weeks. I predict 6 in a row.

I'm gonna give a shout out to Kyle and the #18 crew for hanging in there
and turning a car that was simply top 10 into a race winning one. This
is the third closest race to the cha$e that he has won, the other two
ahead of this being Fontana in September 2005 (although Kyle didn't make
the cha$e this year) and Bristol in 2009 (Kyle didn't make it this year
either but was in contention to, unlike 2005).

If Brad keeps finishing like this, I'm going to say that he'll probably
make the top 10 before Richmond, depending on how Dale Jr and Stewart
finish the next few weeks. I'm giving my biggest cheer for him: KEEP
PUTTING THAT SPEED TOGETHER AND FINISHING WELL, BRAD!


  69.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:09 pm
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i fell asleep after that huge piece of debris, that was endangering the
drivers at lap 28, just woke up to find that toyotas swept at mis this
year, what a giant kick square in the balls, and another stupid G-W-C
finish.


  70.   StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:10 pm
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Alright, let's think about this for a second.... Busch wins Kentucky,
and in all honesty Pocono and Watkins Glen were his races to lose, then
he wins Michigan, and we're heading to Bristol.... with a little bit of
luck and one or two better decisions on a restart, we could be talking
about Kyle Busch winning 4 of the last 5 races, or even crazier he could
be heading to Bristol looking for a 4th win in a row. And out of nowhere
Brad Keselowski has 3 straight podiums, and has nearly won 2 of those 3
races by capitalizing on Busch's poor luck. I mean... dang. Now that
would be a great battle at Bristol between those two, but I get the
feeling Keselowski is going to fall back to earth at some point soon and
just run top 10 and not necessarily top 3 every race. Busch on the other
hand... he could win Bristol and Richmond, I wouldn't count him out at
Atlanta with a million dollars on the line. Ladies and gentlemen, we
have a championship front-runner.


  71.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:22 pm
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"DSFF, I thought that Gibbs and TRD were combining their engine efforts"

That is what they are saying officially, but it will be more TRD than
JGR. Mike "I Shouldn't Have Opened My Mouth" Ford was talking about how
they were having to change their front end geometry because the two
motors are different. Plus I hear a lot of JGR engine guys are going to
be out of a job. Damn those JGR motors are fast. I see this as a step
backwards.

"so much for DSFF's Prediction that his move to Pesnke would destroy him"

Never been so happy to be wrong since I predicted Earnhardt was done in
1997. I am just so proud of how far they have come. Yeah, from the last
1/3 of last season when it because obvious that not only was Brad's team
not gonna find any speed, but they were actually regressing from
mediocre to bad, through the now infamous Richmond debacle, I truly
believed he would just languish at Penske. These last 3 weeks have been
fun as hell. I hope they can keep it up.

"Jimmie Johnson is returning to form, just in time too, as the cha$e
will be starting in several weeks. I predict 6 in a row."

Me too. I know they are not lighting up the win column like they usually
do, but they are almost as solid as they have ever been at this point in
the season. And now they are really turning it up again just in time.
With nobody else stepping up at this point (still don't trust Kyle), it
will be 6 in a row.


  72.   Edwards99fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:24 pm
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I Can already tell that Johnson gonna start running up front for now on
because the season is winding down
If Johnson wins this championship i am done with nascar forever


  73.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:31 pm
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Spen, my top ten all-time list is Petty first, Allison, for the moment,
second, Gordon third, Earnhardt, Sr. fourth, Yarborough fifth, Waltrip
sixth, Pearson seventh, Junior Johnson eighth, Buck Baker ninth, and
Herb Thomas tenth. I actually created a word page on this subject a few
years ago, which lists 33 drivers on the main list, plus seven extras
for a total of 40.

Now what got Jimmie Johnson out front late in tha race was actually an
anticipatory move on Chad Knaus' part. Knaus has been notified that the
#36 car was slowing and might bring out a caution. Knaus then brought
Johnson into the pits, hoping tha caution would come out at that exact
instant, slowing the field down, which it did, allowing them to make
their pit stop with the field slowed. When the rest of the field pitted
undcer caution, Johnson got the lead, but Kyle Busch's car was faster.
This same tactic won them the race at Auto Club Speedway last February.

Now, I have to ask, what's up at Roush? Other than Matt Kenseth, and
even he faded at the finish, none of their cars, which means no Fords,
were in contention at the finish. Greg Biffle dominated the first half
of the race, David Ragan did a respectable job, considering how sore he
must be, and Carl Edwards had the same thing hapen to him that happened
to him in the first Pocono race. Marcos Ambrose showed flashes, but an
incident entering the pits between him and Kevin Harvick ruined his day,
while A.J. Allmendinger never was in contention. Trevor Bayne was
content to stay at the back of the lead lap all day, and staying out of
everybody's way, even moving over on the start of the race so that other
cars could get by him.

What I'm really getting at here, is that Ford needs to get more teams to
get up there with Roush, because if Roush's cars are nowhere to be seen,
it's guaranteed that Ford will have a bad day. After all, when's the
last time that a non-Roush car was the top finishing Ford in a non-RP
oval track race? even Toyota has more than one competitve team, but Ford
only has one consistenly competitve team, and hasn't really made any
efforts to change that in recent years.


  74.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:32 pm
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Oh, and by the way, I should have mentioned this in the last post, but
Jeff Gordon led enough laps today to pass 22,000 in his career, the
sixth driver to do so. but he's still looking for his next win and top
five finish, each of which would set new modern records.


  75.   Iceman39 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:36 pm
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Why do they even race at Michigan or even Pocono. These are the 2 most
boring tracks that NASCAR runs on. 1 race a year at these tracks are
enough. NASCAR give 2 of these race dates to another track were racing
is not boring. Iowa Speedway & Road America would 2 tracks that would be
perfect for Cup racing. NASCAR think about it.


  76.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:42 pm
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To show how much better the Gibbs cars are than all the other Toyotas,
Kyle Busch has scored the most manufacturer points of any driver and has
been the top finisher for his manufacturer more than anybody except for
Kurt Busch, and Kurt only has 3 more top finishes than Kyle does. Kyle
scored his 11th top 3 finish this year, which is more than anybody else
has top 5s.


  77.   LordLowe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:43 pm
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Now we go to a place That DSFF has shown a lot of love for in recent
years and that is the new Bristol or Brisdull Motor Speedway BTW I was
being Sarcastic I know that you have nothing but contempt for the new
Bristol motor speedway you don't have to look it up cause I already have
looked up many of your posts showing contempt for what they have done to
the place and I'm sure you will bash it again Saturday night just try to
keep the ranting and raving to a minimum we don't want you to turn into
the Ultimate Warrior now would we


  78.   DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:46 pm
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@StevenWallaceCan'tDrive

You mean 4 out of the last 6, right? Indy and New Hampshire were the two
he wasn't leading toward the end. Still, leaving out the shoulda coulda
woulda, 2 wins out of the last 6 is pretty impressive, especially with
two other top 3s, and the strong possibility of adding another win next
week.


  79.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:51 pm
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Yes 18fan, the Gibbs cars are better than all the other Toyotas, but the
Red Bull team, and even Michael Waltrip Racing's toyotas have contended
more often than the non-Roush Fords have. Remember that Kahne has been a
dominant factor at times this year, leading the most laps twice, and
David Reutimann finished second at Kentucky, outracing Jimmie Johnson to
do it. Other than plate races and road courses, none of the teams other
than Roush that run Fords is even competitve.

Not Richard Petty Motorsports, which is competitve only occasionally.
Definaltely not the Wood Brothers, whose current driver seems intent on
just staying out of everyone else's way on non-RP tracks, as he did
today, so we don't know just how much potential that team may have, and
definately not Front Row Motorsports, which had only one of its cars
sponsored for this race. So for the Ford teams, it's Roush or bust. At
least with the Toyota teams, there is a chance, albeit a slim one, that
Red Bull Racing or Michael Waltrip Racing can step it up, while Ford
doesn't currently have a second option, should something happen to the
Roush cars.


  80.   Butt Smoke posted:
  08.21.2011 - 5:55 pm
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mmmmmmm
this race was rrreally good

I love when Nascar throw's the caution,it's the most exciting part of
the race.


  81.   Texas Terry posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:02 pm
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Yeah, Iceman39, I would normally agree with you that Michigan is pretty
boring race, but this was the best race I've seen at the track in a long
time. Lots of passing, lots of side-by-side, several different
contenders to win, and an exciting finish. Still, I would also love to
see Michigan and Pocono give up 1 race each to Iowa and Road America (or
maybe even Montreal)


  82.   Matthew Sullivan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:10 pm
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Junior's pit crew cost him a top 10 finish today. Their first poor stop
put the 88 back to 25th however Junior was able to drive up into the top
10. On the last pit stop, the crew lost three spots changing just two
tires. Between the poor stops, Junior dealt with inconsistancy between
sets of tires. 14th isn't a bad finish, but it's not where the 88 should
have placed and it wasn't indicative of how good the 88 car was today.


  83.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:17 pm
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Montreal doesn't deserve a NASCAR race in any major series, not after
what happened with Dufault's car, and the tragedy that was just barely
avoided, due to the fact that you had a blind corner with trees, and a
car sideways on the track that nobody, not even cormer workers, could
see. Road America is not a good idea to put back on the Cup circuit
either (it was on the schedule in 1957), because that track, at four
miles, is simply too long. With all the guys that were having brakes
problems in the NW race at Montreal, can you imagine the carnage that
would take place at a track like Road America? After all, that's where
A.J. Foyt was so savagely hurt in turn one in 1990, because of failing
brakes, and there were spectacular crashes in that turn the entire
weekend that the Nationwide Series competed there. After all, why do you
think NASCAR doens't run the outer loop at Watkins Glen? It's because
they fear carnage due to brake failure.

I do agree that a third road course race belongs on the circuit, so that
the race at Sonoma can potentially move into a Chase position, but
Montreal and Road America are not good candidates.


  84.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:20 pm
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Today's race at Michigan only attacted an attendance of 81,000, a
staggering 23% drop from the same event one year ago. With that in mind,
it might be a bad idea to hold a race at Iowa, though with Rusty
Wallace's diminishing role at that facility, that seems more and more
unlikely, but it would be a good track to hold a Cup race.


  85.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:22 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Fun fact: NASCAR threw two debris cautions today and didn't pick up one
piece of debris.


  86.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:22 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

By the way, that comment in that last post should have said that, with
dwindling attendance at even some of the marquee tracks and races, that
it would NOT be a bad idea to race at Iowa. Sorry for that mistake.


  87.   KBM18 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:24 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Busch wins his 23rd race, tying with Ricky Rudd and his own brother Kurt
Busch, for 26th all time. In other words, only 25 drivers have more Cup
wins than Kyle Busch. Hopefully that sentence pisses a lot of people off.

Let's face it though, even with the points lead he's still only maybe
the 6th or 7th best "points racer" in NASCAR right now. But is there
anyone still adamant that he's not heading to the Hall of Fame someday?
Even if this was his last ever NASCAR win, I'd still like his chances.
But let's be rational, he's only 26, he's probably going to win at least
30+ races (conservative estimate). Even with no title, he's going to be
a Hall of Famer based purely on Cup wins. Not even looking at his "total
NASCAR wins", just Cup wins. So get used to it, haters.

What really impresses me is how Keselowski has made the move from a
driver I would predicted to win maybe 5-10 career races, to a driver I
now think will win somewhere between 15 and 25 career races. Who knows,
maybe more, he's still pretty young himself, but I don't fully trust the
consistency of the Penske team on a year to year basis. I didn't use to
care for the guy, for obvious reasons, but he's impressing me a lot
lately. He's maturing as a driver and as a person in the same way Kyle
has the last few seasons, and he's teammates with a Busch. Also, his
last name isn't Johnson, and he doesn't drive for Hendrick, which goes a
long way in my book. I know it would be strange to be a Kyle Busch fan
AND a Brad Keselowski fan, but if they can put their tumultuous past
behind them, I think they would probably find that they are more similar
than they are different. And Keselowski already has to spend a lot of
time with a Busch, so I almost have to learn to like him just purely
because of the team he drives for. It's like when you're friends with
someone who is friends with another person you don't really care for at
first, but over time you learn to like them. Like becoming "friends
in-law". I'm not saying it's there yet, but I did find myself at the end
of this race saying over and over, "if it can't be Busch, just not
Johnson, if it can't be Busch, just not Johnson..... oh crap is Busch
getting passed? Get him Keselowski!" And then I felt really strange for
a second, and thought, "did I really just say that?" and oddly enough, I
was able to make peace with that idea rather quickly. So there you go.
Maybe there's hope for all you Kyle haters out there to someday see the
light as well. He's getting more tolerable, not less tolerable, right?
Time can heal a lot of old wounds....


  88.   The Deuce posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:33 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I do agree that a third road course race belongs on the circuit, so
that the race at Sonoma can potentially move into a Chase position, but
Montreal and Road America are not good candidates."


I know the logistics of this would be staggering, but how cool would it
be for the Cup series to do a true street race circuit somewhere? It
would be hard to find a suitable location, obviously, but I'd love to
see one in a place like downtown Las Vegas, just as an example. Think of
how cool that would look. It doesn't have to be a real technical
circuit, just a place with nice wide corners and good views for the fans.

But there are lots of good road courses out there, and I don't think
Canada should be dismissed. Canadian fans have proven to be quite loyal,
I say give them a Cup race. Going back to my street race idea/dream, how
about a place like Vancouver? Just throwing it out there, it's a
gorgeous city, and NASCAR has wanted to expand out that way for years.


  89.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  08.21.2011 - 6:59 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Montreal doesn't deserve a NASCAR race in any major series, not after
what happened with Dufault's car, and the tragedy that was just barely
avoided, due to the fact that you had a blind corner with trees, and a
car sideways on the track that nobody, not even cormer workers, could see."

I think the blame is with NASCAR, not the track workers. NASCAR's
inabilty to effectively use local yellow flags and the fact that they
couldn't properly run a road course race to save their own skin is what
resulted in that incident today. I wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR told
the marshals not to display a flag until directed to by NASCAR. It
should be the corner workers feeding information to race control, not
the other way around. I also think you're wrong about the track - in
that the corner workers couldn't see the #81 stopped parked where it was
- you could clearly see the two marshals fromt heir flag point looking
at the #81 and then looking back towards the oncoming traffic.

The blame for that incident lies entirely with NASCAR's stubborn
incompetence - the blue flags are yellow? What on earth is that
rubbish?! The officiating on the road courses has continually been
embarassing. It's only the excellent racing that saves the events from
being truly farcical.


  90.   Karn Evil 9 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 7:23 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I do agree that a third road course race belongs on the circuit, so
that the race at Sonoma can potentially move into a Chase position, but
Montreal and Road America are not good candidates. "

Bring back Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez or go to another road course
entirely? Just an idea.


  91.   NioRosbergFan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 7:39 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Interesting note, yesterday's American Le Mans Series event had a margin
of victory of .1 seconds, and that was without phantom cautions in a
4-hour race at Road America.


  92.   potatosalad48 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 7:44 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Brad is on a roll right now with 1st, 2nd and 3rd place finishes in his
last 3 races. If he can keep this up and make the Chase, he could be a
serious championship contender. Sounds weird, doesn't it?


  93.   18fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 7:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

KBM, Interestingly I am having a similar feeling about Brad Keselowski.
When he first became a consistent challenger in the Nationwide Series I
didn't really like him, but the way he handled the whole Carl Edwards
mess started to change my opinion of him. Now that he's becoming a
consistent contender and is seemingly very humble about it, I'm starting
to like him more and more.


  94.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  08.21.2011 - 8:21 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

To add to my post (#68) talking about Kyle's closest wins that came
outside of the final 10 races, he also won the 2010 Bristol race, which
completed a sweep of all the NASCAR races that weekend.

Glad to see Brad gaining respect from a few on here. I know he isn't the
most liked driver in NASCAR, but I happen to like him a lot and root for
him. The turnaround that he, Kurt and Penske Racing have undergone is
amazing. I really think Penske can remain as competitive as they are now
as long as they continue to base decisions off of their drivers and
continue to move forward. As far as being a championship contender, I
wouldn't want to get my hopes up that high considering this is his first
roll of top 5's he's managed to pull off in his Cup career, but I do
think he could make the cha$e by making the top 10 if he keeps up these
strong runs and if Dale Jr or Stewart have a bad race.


  95.   Ryan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 8:39 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Junior's pit crew cost him a top 10 finish today. Their first poor stop
put the 88 back to 25th however Junior was able to drive up into the top
10. On the last pit stop, the crew lost three spots changing just two
tires. Between the poor stops, Junior dealt with inconsistancy between
sets of tires. 14th isn't a bad finish, but it's not where the 88 should
have placed and it wasn't indicative of how good the 88 car was today."

Yeah on the last stop it looked like there was no sense of urgency
whatsoever, that stop was slow as hell. He should have finished at least
9th today.


  96.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 8:49 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"we don't want you to turn into the Ultimate Warrior now would we"

*rambles loudly and incoherently for what feels like forever*

@78: Best name since Jimmie Johnsons Neatly Trimmed Beard


  97.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 8:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"It would have been a terrible crash if you didn't have someone like
Trevor Bayne, because his instinctive ability to avoid trouble once
again saved a serious crash from happeneing."

... plus I guess the two cars around him who avoided contact even better
than Trevor did?


  98.   LordLowe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 8:57 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well If anyone is to beat Johnson for the title they should put on the
Ultimate warrior's face paint and get into Johnson's head by cutting a
Ultimate Warrior like promo


  99.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:09 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"And out of nowhere Brad Keselowski has 3 straight podiums, and has
nearly won 2 of those 3 races by capitalizing on Busch's poor luck"

Yes, "luck" was the reason that Kyle took himself out of the race for
the win at Watkins Glen by overdriving turn 1.


  100.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:12 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I Can already tell that Johnson gonna start running up front for now on
because the season is winding down
If Johnson wins this championship i am done with nascar forever"

If you fall out of love for the sport because someone is dominating it
who you're not a fan of, you never truly loved the sport to begin with.


  101.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:16 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Fun fact: NASCAR threw two debris cautions today and didn't pick up one
piece of debris."

Fun fact: Your "fun fact" isn't factual.


  102.   Vickers83fan posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I Wonder why Brian Vickers not run any good, i was expecting a lot out
of him. The Same thing at the Charlotte


  103.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:34 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

" Wonder why Brian Vickers not run any good, i was expecting a lot out
of him."

Team Red Bull has really suffered since it was announced they are
folding. Plus those TRD engines seem to be getting worse. Denny Hamlin
was so disgusted with his car he parked it for a while.

And I would just like to say something I just talked about on the
Montreal page: MWR's race cars are pieces of shit. Actually, that is
unfair. Calling MWR's Toyotas shitboxes is an insult to boxes of shit. A
complete embarrassment today as those two talented drivers struggled
like hell just to run 25th all day. They grabbed 18th and 19th in the
final mad scramble, but they were shit all day.

Can Michael Waltrip do anything and not suck at it? Driving? Over 800
starts of pure failure. Owning? Two talented drivers wasting their
primes, a mountain of debt that he had to be bailed out of, and a hair
pulling NWide crew chief. Driver development? He let go of Trevor Bayne
who promptly went on to win the Daytona 500 a few months later, but
landed a deal with Travis Pastrana who broke his leg before he could
make his debut which would have been a disaster. Commentating? Nausea
inducing. Being a friend? He has exploited Earnhardt's death like crazy.
Public driving? I thought, when driving home, you drove all the way to
your driveway, not flip into a ditch then walk the rest of the way home
in your socks. Rocket fuel customer? OK, he is really good at that.


  104.   Spen posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:43 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

There is one thing Mikey's good at. Becoming a celebrity while
accomplishing practically nothing. I think only Paris Hilton has done it
better.


  105.   LordLowe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 9:49 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Hey DSFF why don't you just Hire the Ultimate Warrior to take care of Mikey


  106.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  08.21.2011 - 10:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I can't believe I actually thought back in 2009 that MWR could become a
15th place team that snuck into the cha$e every now and then. They have
regressed greatly since last season ended, and they'll probably be lucky
to even win another race. If I had posted a list like Spen and DSFF did,
that would definitely be on my list. I hate seeing Truex and Reutimann
struggle in those mediocre cars.

"There is one thing Mikey's good at. Becoming a celebrity while
accomplishing practically nothing. I think only Paris Hilton has done it
better."

This made me laugh out loud.


  107.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 10:14 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

M535i, I did see the replay of that incident, and that was, indeed an
error on my part, as there was a corner worker waving the blue flag. And
yes, the blue flags, when waved by the corner workers, are the local
yellow flags.

Now Anonymous (#97), Trevor Bayne would probably have missed the #81 car
entirely if could actually have seen where he was going. Remember that
he was following another car closely, so he was really driving into that
incident blind, especially since he had absolutely no warning whatsoever
about the car sideways blocking the track. That's why it was a miracle
that he didn't pile into either the car he was trailing, or the #81 car
with incredible force.


  108.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  08.21.2011 - 10:31 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I was more meaning how lame is it that they use a blue flag instead of a
yellow? I mean, NASCAR can just change the meaning of the blue flag
because they obviously know better than everyone else - and what happens
when the blue flag is actually need as a blue flag? Would they then
display a yellow flag instead?

I can't for the life of me figure out why NASCAR can't just run the show
like everyone else does. It's not that hard!


  109.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 10:41 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

By the way, there were 15 start-and-parks in the two races at Michgan
this weekend. Eight in the Truck race and seven in the Cup race.

DSFF, Denny Hamlin didn't go to the garage because he was disgusted
about how his car was handling. He went to the garage due to damage to
his car that was incurred when he hit the wall in the second turn.


  110.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.21.2011 - 10:48 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

And 18fan, how bad was Montoya's race? He finished, and pretty much ran,
behind Trevor Bayne. And teammate Jamie McMurray really didn't do any
better, as the two Ganassi cars bracketed Bayne's part-time car, which
may not have been so bad, except for the fact that Bayne pretty much
stayed out of everybody's way to prevent him possibly ruining anyone's
chances for a higher points finish. And all three of them pretty much
ran together the entire race. Terrible performance today by Ganassi all
together.


  111.   Anonymous posted:
  08.21.2011 - 11:07 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

cjs- regarding Trevor, you're absolutely right that he had very little
visibility since he was so close to the back of I believe Andrew Ranger.
All of those cars got pretty lucky that Maryeve was far enough right,
because momentum brings those cars to the left in that section which led
to a near miss.


  112.   00andJoe posted:
  08.21.2011 - 11:40 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I was more meaning how lame is it that they use a blue flag instead of
a yellow? I mean, NASCAR can just change the meaning of the blue flag
because they obviously know better than everyone else - and what happens
when the blue flag is actually need as a blue flag? Would they then
display a yellow flag instead?"

There is no such thing as a "blue flag" aside from local
caution/warning; your argument is invalid.
If you're thinking of the blue flag with yellow stripe, that's something
completely different.


"I mean, NASCAR can just change the meaning of the blue flag because
they obviously know better than everyone else"
NASCAR can have a blue, white, green or pink-with-purple-polka-dot flag
mean anything they jolly well want it to in their own events. That's one
of the perks of being a sanctioning body.


As for your -supposition- and -assumption- that NASCAR directs the
corner workers when to wave a flag and not, I'll remind you what happens
when you "assume". The Montreal corner workers didn't wave a warning
flag until they did because they, themselves, didn't think they needed
to - hence the sudden frantic flag-waving when four cars go past and the
cornerworkers have a "oh merde!" moment.


  113.   Timmy Quivy posted:
  08.22.2011 - 12:31 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

With his 1-2-3 run the last three weeks, BradK is suddenly in 12th in
points. Under the last Chase format, he would have been in the Chase
anyway. In fact, with Bristol and Atlanta coming up in the next two
weeks there's suddenly a very real possibility he could make up 52
points in three races given a bad race or two for Stewart and Junior and
suddenly land himself in the top-ten.


  114.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  08.22.2011 - 12:31 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The blue flag is used to direct a lapped car to allow a lead lap car to
pass. In a practice or qualifying session, it is used to warn drivers of
faster cars approaching.

You're completely right, I'm assuming that's the way it works, because
that's the only logical explanation that I can come up with for the
whole thing. If what you're opinion regarding the event is correct, then
I have to ask - who the hell are these people and why were they flagging
a race when they obviously have no understanding of what goes on?

Which then also raises the question - what happens during the marshals
briefing? Does NASCAR say, "if there is a hazard on the track, only show
a flag if you feel like it"? Of course not! All of the marshals would
have been told that for even the smallest of incidents, they're to wave
that flag like their lives depend on it, regardless of there being cars
coming or not.

The whole incident was disgraceful and incredibly amatuerish and unless
there is an offical statement made, then assume and speculate is all
that you or I can do. But bloody hell it was painful to watch.


  115.   18fan posted:
  08.22.2011 - 1:10 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Greg Biffle has led the most laps in the last 3 Michigan races, yet has
finishes of 4th, 15th, and 20th in those races. I expected Newman to be
more of a factor today. Sure he finished 5th, but that was mainly due to
getting tires before the GWC. He ran about 8th-12th most of the day.


  116.   StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted:
  08.22.2011 - 1:39 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"@StevenWallaceCan'tDrive

You mean 4 out of the last 6, right? Indy and New Hampshire were the two
he wasn't leading toward the end. Still, leaving out the shoulda coulda
woulda, 2 wins out of the last 6 is pretty impressive, especially with
two other top 3s, and the strong possibility of adding another win next
week."

Oh crap, I forgot about Indy! Well still, having the winning car in 4 of
the last 6 races is still pretty good, while heading into your best track.


"And out of nowhere Brad Keselowski has 3 straight podiums, and has
nearly won 2 of those 3 races by capitalizing on Busch's poor luck"

Yes, "luck" was the reason that Kyle took himself out of the race for
the win at Watkins Glen by overdriving turn 1."

That mistake wasn't bad luck, but the fact that last caution came out
was. He was holding Ambrose at bay pretty steadily before it came out,
and I think it was definitely his race to lose. Pocono was the same way,
Busch obviously made a mistake on the restart choosing to block Johnson,
but without the last caution it was Busch's race. The same thing nearly
happened again today. Busch had the winning car, but he was vulnerable
on the restart again. What do you call those late cautions other than
bad luck? Bad luck, bad coincidence, poor timing, whatever you want to
call it, he definitely wins Pocono without the final caution, and I had
to like his chances with the lead he had at Watkins Glen even though I'm
sure Ambrose would have mounted one furious charge, possibly wrecking
him in the process. Which I would have been ok with since Ambrose
deserved to win a race. And I wasn't trying to take anything away from
Keselowski, but he did benefit from the timing of those cautions, there
is no disputing that. He made the best of Busch's bad luck, which then
led to Busch's mistakes.


  117.   00andJoe posted:
  08.22.2011 - 4:30 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"The blue flag is used to direct a lapped car to allow a lead lap car to
pass."

Not quite. The blue flag with the diagonal yellow stripe, displayed from
the flagstand, is the 'Move Over' flag. The solid blue flag displayed by
a corner worker is the "hazard in the next section of track" flag. They
can't use a yellow flag for that because the solid yellow flag,
displayed by a cornerworker, is the same as it is from the flagstand:
the 'full course caution' flag.

(At least NASCAR doesn't use the yellow-and-red-vertically-striped
'fluid on course' flag...)

I do totally agree though, that was the worst safety violation I've seen
since the guy ran out to chase down a tire in the trioval under green at
Atlanta. And if that's the standard of corner workers Circuit Gilles
Villeneuve employs then they absolutely need to be booted off the
schedule, and hard.


  118.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.22.2011 - 8:20 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

LordLowe, I can't hire the Ultimate Warrior, he is too busy touring
colleges and lecturing about the evils of homosexuality. Seriously.


  119.   August West posted:
  08.22.2011 - 11:54 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Kyle won me $30 and free lunch today....2 picks in a row for me with
Ambrose pulling it out last week...


  120.   LordLowe posted:
  08.22.2011 - 1:07 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I think You want To Punch Mikey in the face if you had the chance
wouldn't you DSFF


  121.   Scott B posted:
  08.22.2011 - 4:29 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Mikey is good at getting and retaining sponsorship for his teams, even
when they underachieve. Which is most of the time.

Meanwhile, Bristol entry list is up. Short track ace Jeff Green is in
the #37 for Front Row Motorsports (he did one race previously in the
#55). Also, Scott Speed to the Whitney #46, this deal is for the rest of
the season.


  122.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.22.2011 - 4:33 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Scott B, it's good that you said most of the time, because the Trevor
Bayne situation from last year is definately a BIG exception to that.
And it happened again this year with Ryan Truex, and who knows how that
will end up, as Truex is going to do six races in the Nationwide Series
later this year with Joe Gibbs. Knowing Waltrip's luck where that's
concerned, Truex may contend for a win in at least one of those races.


  123.   Talon64 posted:
  08.22.2011 - 5:23 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Kyle Busch picks up career Cup win number 23, tying him with brother
Kurt and Ricky Rudd for 26th all time. But it took Kurt 380 starts and
Rudd 747 starts to reach 23 wins (coincidentally, both Kurt and Rudd's
most recent/last Cup win have come at Sonoma).

It was also Kyle's series leading 4th win, 6th top 2 finish, 11th
podium, 13th top 5 and is tied with Jimmie Johnson for most top 10's
with 15. He's also led more laps this year than the next 2 best drivers
combined (1158 vs. 548 for Kurt and 512 for Jimmie, 1060 total).

It's Kyle's 1st Cup win at Michigan, and it's the first time JGR (which
now has 93 career Cup wins) has swept Michigan in a season since Bobby
Labonte won both races in 1995.

It's weird to see Jimmie Johnson get his best career... well anything
these days, but Jimmie finishes a career-best 2nd at Michigan. It's just
his 3rd top 5 in 20 career Michigan starts. But on the season it's his
4th top 5 and 5th top 10 in the last 6 races, scoring the 2nd most
points in that stretch.

Jimmie also made his 350th career Cup start, which ranks him 62nd all
time. His 32nd career runner-up finish ties him with Dale Jarrett for
19th all time.

Brad Keselowski picked up his 4th consecutive top 10 and 3rd straight
podium finish; in that span he's gone from 21st to 12th in the standings
(tied with Kyle Busch for most points scored in that stretch).

Keselowski is tied with Jeff Gordon for the 4th most podium finishes
this season with 5, and he and Kyle are the only 2 drivers to string
together 3 straight podium finishes (Kyle's done it twice).

BraKes had only finished as high as 25th in his first 4 Michigan starts
before this past race.

Mark Martin picks up just his 2nd top 5 finish of the season but his
18th in 52 Michigan starts, tied with Charlotte for his 3rd most at any
track. It's his first top 5 there in the 5 races since his 2009 win.
It's also his 435th career top 10, putting him 11 back of Bobby Allison
for 2nd all time.

Ryan Newman has 8 top 5's this season, his most since 2005, with 6 of
them being 5th place finishes. It's also his 80th career top 5 (tied
with Carl Edwards for 43rd all time) in 355 starts. He's scored the most
points of anyone over the last 6 races (4 top 5's, 7.2 avg fin). But
it's just his 5th top 5 and 6th top 10 in 21 Michigan starts (18.2 avg
fin, 2 career wins).

Jeff Gordon finishes 6th for the 2nd time in 3 races, just missing out
on his milestone top 5, but 6th in the points is the highest he's been
since he was 5th after his Phoenix win in the 2nd race of the season.
It's his 1st top 10 in 3 Michigan starts, after previously having 3
straight top 5's, but it's his 24th career top 10 in 38 Michigan starts,
his 3rd most at any track.

Kasey Kahne gets his 3rd top 10 in the last 7 races, after going 6
straight without one. It's his 7th top 10 in 16 career Michigan starts
(15.4 avg fin) and 95th of his career which ties him with Jamie McMurray
for 67th all time.

Clint Bowyer came from 35th starting position to pick up end his streak
of 6 straight races without a top 10 finish. Clint finished 8th in both
Michigan races this year and for the 3rd time in the last 5 races, but
it's only his 4th in 12 career Michigan starts. His 88th career top 10
ties him with Jimmy Pardue and Lennie Pond for 71st all time.

Tony Stewart picks up his 3rd top 10 in the last 5 races but still only
has 2 top 5's this season (previous career-low was 9 just last year).
But it's his 4th straight top 10 at Michigan, and his 18th in 26 career
starts there (11.5 avg fin) which is tied with Pocono for his most at
any track.

Matt Kenseth picked up just his 2nd top 10 in the last 5 races but his
3rd straight at Michigan; his 16 top 10's in 25 career Michigan starts
are tied with Dover for his most at any track.

Although AJ Allmendinger only has 5 top 10's this year, he picked up his
3rd 11th place finish and has 13 top 15 finishes on the season.

Regam Smith gets his 7th top 15 finish of the season and is 25th in the
standings, his highest position since he was 19th after 2 races.

Bobby Labonte also gets just his 6th top 15 finish of the season, but
has 4 top 20's in the last 5 races (4 in the first 18 races).


  124.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.22.2011 - 5:35 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Interestingly, Jeff Gordon's next top ten finish will tie him with
Darrell Waltrip for fifth all-time with 390. With 435 (and counting),
Mark Martin (third all-time) holds the modern-record.

Also, Joe Nemechek tied David Pearson for 23rd all-time with 574 career
starts. It's not really noteworthy, because Nemechek is a
start-and-park, but when you tie someone like David Pearson in anything,
it becomes noteworthy.


  125.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.22.2011 - 5:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Nah, after watching those hammer-like right jabs he laid on Lake Speed
at Michigan, I don't want to pick a fight with Mikey :)


  126.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.22.2011 - 5:57 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"DSFF, Denny Hamlin didn't go to the garage because he was disgusted
about how his car was handling. He went to the garage due to damage to
his car that was incurred when he hit the wall in the second turn."

Whatever the deal, him and Mike Ford were furious with each other. The
Johnson Effect continues.


  127.   1995z71 posted:
  08.22.2011 - 5:59 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

another boring race.


  128.   00andJoe posted:
  08.22.2011 - 6:29 pm
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ScottB - so much for Darnell in the #46, I reckon...


  129.   Pacer posted:
  08.22.2011 - 6:40 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The pace car for this race was a new Chevrolet Sonic, a compact car that
had just replaced the Chevrolet Aveo in the Bowtie's lineup. Was kind of
humorous to see such a small red car leading the field at a NASCAR race.


  130.   Kyle Busch posted:
  08.22.2011 - 7:22 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Ryan is jealous of me because one of my sponsors, M&M has better
commercials than the 88 team sponsors do.


  131.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.22.2011 - 10:58 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Ever since June went to the 88, his commercials with them have been
lame. Now I don't ever see him in any Amp commercials. I only see him in
Nationwide commercials. Danica seems to have taken his place as the
commercial darling.


  132.   Spen posted:
  08.23.2011 - 1:08 am
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Cjs: Out of curiosity, why is Pearson so far down on your list? I can
see Petty and Allison ahead of him of course, and while I don't agree, I
understand Earnhardt and Gordon. But Cale and especially DW being ahead
of him? I don't get it.

Similarly, why is Buck Baker ahead of Herb Thomas?


  133.   Pk84 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 1:42 am
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"Ever since June went to the 88, his commercials with them have been
lame. Now I don't ever see him in any Amp commercials. I only see him in
Nationwide commercials. Danica seems to have taken his place as the
commercial darling."

On the subject of Danica, I saw a post about her over on the Nationwide
page that I feel kinda made me stop and think about just what her moving
to NASCAR could mean beyond the advertising and attention for the sport.
And with all due respect and credit to its original author, The Deuce,
I'd like to re-post it here to see if it generates some good discussion.
Seeing as how Danica is expected to announce her switch to NASCAR this
week, I think it's pertinent.

Here it is, like I said I'm copying it from the current Montreal
Nationwide race page if you want to see it in context:

-
"Some people have a problem separating the media BS from the driver.
It's not like Danica Patrick gets out of her car after a race and runs
over to the cameras begging for an interview. Most of the time, she
looks like she'd rather be anywhere else by talking to the pit
reporters. She usually has this look on her face like, "Why the heck are
you talking to me? I just finished 24th!". It's not like she claims to
be great, or demands that everyone pays attention to her. I can see why
some might have a problem with her commercials, if they're uptight and
have stick up their a$$ about sexuality.

Oh my god, a woman using her body to further her career! This has never
happened in the history of mankind!

What, is she supposed to tell the people that have forked over millions
of dollars so that she can chase her dream, to buzz off, just because
they want to do some mildly suggestive but mostly humorous commercials
that show less skin than a kids show on Nickelodeon? I mean come on, get
over yourself. I appreciate that she's just trying to do something that
a woman has never done before, and that's be a successful Indycar/NASCAR
driver, and I support her for that fact alone (and before you bring it
up, I'm well aware of what Janet Guthrie, Lyn St. James, Sarah Fisher,
and all the other previous women drivers have accomplished).

And honestly, calling her a tramp because she does some commercials or
poses in some magazines in a bikini or whatever, that's actually kinda
sexist. Where were these people when Carl Edwards was posing shirtless
in ESPN the magazine a few years back? Where are these people when Denny
Hamlin's (obviously digitally enhanced) shirtless image pops up in the
Toyota sponsifier commercials, with the implicit sexual overtones of a
housewife's so-called "fantasy"? And would these people say the same
thing if any other male driver appeared shirtless or semi-nude in any
similar circumstances? The answer, NO. They wouldn't be labeled sluts,
or tramps, or anything of that nature. That my friends is known as a
double standard.

She's probably not going to be lighting up the win column, but if she
can manage to earn some respect, get top 10's on a regular or even
semi-regular basis, and get to a point where she truly "deserves" her
Cup ride, it could open the doors for a lot more female drivers in a
profession that's dominated by men. And I'm talking about rides with top
20 teams, not field fillers or back-runners like a lot of other women
are currently relegated to. Because like it or not, women drivers do not
get the respect that they deserve, and therefore they aren't going to
get rides they deserve, or the rides that a man of equal talent are
getting. So busting these long-held prejudices would be quite an
accomplishment if Danica can pull it off. She would be a hero to a great
many girls out there. How can someone not support something like that in
the 21st century?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. The media is the only one to blame
here. They're the ones creating unreasonable expectations coupled with
excessive focus. I know this sounds crazy, but you'll know Danica has
succeeded when she STOPS getting an inordinate amount of attention,
because it will be at that point that she has become "just another
driver" of which there is nothing out of the ordinary about seeing on
track. I hope that day comes, I really do. This sport needs it. Think
about it, what other major professional sport would have men and women
regularly competing on the same level playing field, with the
expectations of their career based solely on their talent and not their
gender? If you can't see that this issue is bigger than just Danica
herself, or furthering her marketability, or whatever other BS you want
to dredge up, then you are pretty ignorant."
-

Now I will admit, I've not always thought the most of Danica. It's
obvious to anyone that the amount of attention she gets outweighs what
she deserves for on-track performance. But The Deuce makes a good point,
that's the media's fault and not hers. It's hard to fault her for taking
advantage of the opportunities she is being given. And looking beyond
all the hype and celebrity that follows her around, there is a real
important issue at stake here. Now I know most of us here probably fancy
ourselves to be real manly-men, and talking about an issue like feminism
doesn't usually work itself into our daily conversations, but I think
The Deuce is right. There is a tremendous weight being placed on
Danica's shoulders here, because she is being given a chance to prove
what a woman can do in what everyone will agree is some top-notch
equipment. No other women have had this kind of opportunity. It's
impressive enough that she has already been somewhat welcomed into the
fraternity of Cup drivers, with Mark Martin tutoring her, Harvick
telling her to follow him and watch what he does during one race,
Stewart pushing her around and committing to her as a drafting partner
at Daytona, amongst other things. They know how big of a deal this is.

I think in Indycar some of the other drivers are resentful of her and
haven't been as open to helping her out (with good reason), but when you
think about it she has already been partially successful at eliminating
the stigma of the female Indycar driver. By proving she can at least
regularly run top 5 and top 10 in that series, she has probably opened
the door for an even better driver like Simona de Silvestro to one day
land a top Indycar ride. Danica is still followed around far more
because of her celebrity and fanbase, but the fact that drivers like
Simona de Silvestro, Ana Beatriz, and Pippa Mann can enter the series to
little or no fanfare whatsoever says a lot about how far women have now
come in Indycar. Janet Guthrie was a pioneer, Lyn St. James and Sarah
Fisher kept the dream alive, and Danica Patrick has finally fulfilled
that promise to open the door for drivers like de Silvestro, Beatriz,
and Mann to enter into open wheel racing as simply drivers, NOT female
drivers. I mean we are running Indy 500's now with 4 or 5 women
regularly. That's a big deal.

But Indycar and NASCAR are world's apart in popularity, fanbase, and
worldwide recognition. To finally have a successful woman driver in
NASCAR, that would be enormous. Danica Patrick can turn her fame into
something truly positive for NASCAR, and without sounding too dramatic,
her entire gender. I have no problem denouncing the amount of attention
she receives. I have no problem saying that Danica has at times acted
immature and even entitled off the track. But like The Deuce, I'm
rooting for her nonetheless. I want her to succeed in NASCAR, because
she's being given chances that no other women have had before her, and
what she does with this opportunity, whether or not you think it's fair,
could either set back or further the dreams of talented women drivers
everywhere.

Agree? Disagree? Think this whole debate is pointless and stupid? I
think it's something that can at least be discussed.


  134.   Smiff_99 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:44 am
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I agree. I've never had beef with Danica. In fact, I've been genuinely
impressed with her this year.....she's come a long way since last year.


  135.   Brad24 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 9:42 am
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If you guys think that this race was boring, imagine how it will be next
year when the track will have fresh pavement. Speeds may be high and the
track may have more grip, but there won't be multiple grooves in the
corners. It'll be pretty much single file all the way around. At least
until the track gets some age on it.


  136.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 10:19 am
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Spen, I have Baker ahead of Thomas due to the fact that he had a longer
career, and for me, longevity is important, especially if you're
comparing contemporaries with similar stats, as Baker and Thomas do. As
for why I have Pearson at the bottom of the "super seven", it simply has
to do with the lack of competition he often faced in many of his
victories. By the time competition became stiffer in the late 1970s,
Pearson was already on his way down. On the other hand, Cale and Darrell
faced much stiffer competition than Pearson ever faced, and Petty also
fared better against the tougher competition, at least for a while.
Also, Pearson's career as a top driver didn't last as long as Petty's,
Allison's, Yarborough's, and Earnhardt's did. And Waltrip's career as a
top driver lasted about the same amount of time as Pearson's did, but I
put Waltrip ahead of Pearson, simply due to the level of competition
that he faced. I try to put all factors in when I make an all-time list
like that.

However, I had problems with my computer today, and to get it working
again, I had to sacrifice eveything I had on it, so I no longer have the
"top 33" page, nor does my printer work anymore. I can, of course get
back what I had, but it's going to take a lot of time and effort.


  137.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.23.2011 - 11:01 am
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The thing that got me to look sideways at Danica was when she was
discussing whether she would decide to go the NASCAR route or stay in
IndyCar, she said a big determining factor would be how it could enhance
"her brand". For her to come right out and say that bugged me. I know
sponsorship is of the utmost importance, but this is still a sport. It
should be all about where can she win the most and have the most success
on the highest level. I haven't really heard her talk much about that.

But overall I agree the networks and media are the most to blame for the
All Danica All The Time schlock-fest. They need to understand that the
core NASCAR fan, the one who will be watching the races this week as
well as the races five and ten years from now, could care less about
celebrity. We are genuinely offended when they slant the coverage so
badly towrds her to cater to the fans that are tuning in just to see
Danica. Again, it is classic Brian France Era short term gain business
decisions. Yes she will cause an initial spike in ratings. But the
"Danica is in the Field" angle will only work for so long before these
flavor of the month fans find a new flavor. Then we are left with no new
fans, only pissed off core fans.


  138.   Scott B posted:
  08.23.2011 - 11:06 am
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Disagree, strongly on Danica.

If Danica were judged strictly on skill, which is what her defenders SAY
they want, no one would even be mentioning her name for a Cup ride. Even
at Montreal, against the most watered-down NNW field in recent memory,
she looked mediocre at best.

I challenge the author of that post to name ONE female driver in stock
cars that has been relegated to lesser equipment that a man of equal
talents. That is pure BS. And, no I don't want to hear any whining about
what goes on in open wheel racing, I just don't care.

There are too many good prospects out there rideless for me to be OK
with the amount of time, money, and effort being wasted on trying to
make her career something it's never going to be.

Whether you think the GoDaddy ads are in good taste is irrelevant. If
she had a squeeky-clean, goody-two-shoes image she still wouldn't be any
better behind the wheel.

I'm sure some race fans weren't thrilled when Kevin Conway was pitching
the benefits of Extenze in every commercial break. But the backlash
against the ads isn't the reason you don't hear Conway's name anymore...
he just wasn't that good. And neither is DP.


  139.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.23.2011 - 11:47 am
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"If you guys think that this race was boring, imagine how it will be
next year when the track will have fresh pavement. Speeds may be high
and the track may have more grip, but there won't be multiple grooves in
the corners. It'll be pretty much single file all the way around. At
least until the track gets some age on it."

Exactly. Plus, with the blistering speeds they will be running, Goodyear
will have to produce a very hard tire which will prevent much side by
side racing.

As far as the all time driver rankings, it is really hard to compare
eras. I know a lot of people divide the "modern era" starting in 1972
when the schedule was streamlined significantly. And that is an
understandable point because that ended the days of drivers winning
15-20 races per year. But, to me, I think 1964 was the biggest
transitional year for NASCAR, which spilled into '65 and '66.

In 1964, NASCAR lost two very significant drivers in Fireball Roberts
and Joe Weatherly. Fireball was the Earnhardt of his day. A popular hard
charger who cared about winning, and nothing else. He drove the piss out
of the car every lap, and either won or blew up. Fans loved watching him
drive, and he won a lot of the major races of his day, including a
Daytona 500, a few Southern 500s (the biggest race at the time), and
some Firecracker 250 or 400s. And Joe Weatherly was the two time
defending champion when he got killed in a Riverside crash. That is a
story that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

The fallout that occured from that spilled over into the next two years.
Three of NASCAR's most known drivers, Curtis Turner, Junior Johnson, and
2 time champ Ned Jarrett all ran their last races by the time the 1966
season ended. But at the same time, in that span ('64-'66), two drivers
emerged and established themselves as drivers to beat, and another
couple laid the foundation of legendary careers. In 1964, a young
Richard Petty finally broke through to win his first superspeedway race,
the Daytona 500, and won his first championship. Also, David Pearson won
his first championship in 1966 and a ton of races. Plus, in 1966, Bobby
Allison won his first few races with his home built Chevelle in a true
"Where The Hell Did He Come From?" fashion. And Cale showed the first
few flashed of what he would become.

Also in this time, drivers went from racing to put food on the table, to
not having to worry too much about money. This changed racing to an
extent. Before this, many super talented local dirt racers decided not
to persue the big leagues for fear of what it would do to their
families. The most famous example is Ralph Earnhardt, who absolutely
could have made it big in Grand National, but didn't want to jeopardize
his 5 kids. By contrast, his son Dale, who made a name for himself on
the dirt tracks in the early 70s, would throw two marraiges down the
tubes by going for broke, literally, trying to make it big. Worst of
all, he took food off the table to race knowing the pot at the end of
the rainbow would be worth it in the long run if he could ever get
there. This, understandably, chased off his first two wives, and most
importantly, he never really got to know his first 3 kids until they
were adults.

By the time the 1967 season happened, many stalwarts of the early days
of NASCAR were no longer racing either due to their tragic deaths or
concerns over safety. That was the year Richard Petty became "The King"
winning 27 races, well over half including a mind numbing 10 in a row,
and won his second championship. He also got involved in many fender
banging duels with Bobby "Seriously, Where The Hell Did He Come From?"
Allison laying the foundation for a legendary 5 year fued. The next two
years, '68 and '69, David Pearson won the championship going away in
what would be the last two times he would ever run for a championship.
Also, the Wood Brothers new hotshot, Cale Yarborough, won a lot of big
races in a limited schedule and established himself as one of the best,
and toughest, drivers around.

That pretty much laid the foundation for the next 15 years as those 4
would dominate the sport, and set the tone for the modern NASCAR driver.
It also set the "circle of NASCAR life" standard as those four,
orginally the "new guard" would become the "old guard" as they would be
challenged by some brash newcomers who arrived in the late 70s named
Waltrip and Earnhardt, who would eventually become the dominant drivers,
along with fellow contemporaries Bill, Rusty, and Mark, until a new wave
of drivers showed up and began taking over the dominating duties in the
90s like Gordon, Jarrett, Labonte, and Burton, who have since been
supplanted by Johnson, Smoke, the Busch Brothers, and Carl (although
Gordon is showing life again).

So, to me, the early days and the early ways of NASCAR saw the beginning
of their end in 1964, and were mostly done for good by 1967. Trying to
project who would do good in another era is very difficult. I think you
almost need two different lists.


  140.   Cooper posted:
  08.23.2011 - 12:58 pm
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Cooper's interesting fact of the race:
--Kyle Busch becomes the first driver ever to win from the 17th starting
position at Michigan in any series.

You don't have to look this up because I already did.


  141.   Talon64 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 3:11 pm
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"If Danica were judged strictly on skill, which is what her defenders
SAY they want, no one would even be mentioning her name for a Cup ride.
Even at Montreal, against the most watered-down NNW field in recent
memory, she looked mediocre at best."

I disagree, since there were plenty of quality road ringers in the field
like Fellows, Villeneuve, Said, Ranger, Fitzpatrick, Carpentier,
Tagliani, McDowell and Speed. Not to mention there were a few Cup guys,
Carl, Robby and Ambrose, there too.


  142.   18fan posted:
  08.23.2011 - 4:07 pm
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Kyle Busch got his driver's license suspended for 45 days after pleading
guilty to his 128 mph incident in May.


  143.   Hal posted:
  08.23.2011 - 4:40 pm
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"I challenge the author of that post to name ONE female driver in stock
cars that has been relegated to lesser equipment that a man of equal
talents. That is pure BS. And, no I don't want to hear any whining about
what goes on in open wheel racing, I just don't care."

By saying that, you're making one huge assumption. Since we've never
seen a female driver on any of the top teams, you are basically saying
that not one female driver has EVER been good enough to be on one of the
top teams. Because by your logic, if they were good enough, they would
be there. THAT is pure BS.

I can't believe that you're suggesting that every female driver will be
given the same opportunities as every male driver, and judged on equal
ground. That's hardly the case in most real jobs, let alone auto racing.


  144.   KahnesGal4 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 5:14 pm
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"If Danica were judged strictly on skill, which is what her defenders
SAY they want, no one would even be mentioning her name for a Cup ride.
Even at Montreal, against the most watered-down NNW field in recent
memory, she looked mediocre at best."


First post here, usually just read the discussions. But I feel like this
issue warrants a female perspective.

I think you completely missed the point of the original post. Everyone
agrees that Danica hasn't been as good as she needs to be to deserve the
rides she's getting. This is about what her getting a good ride in the
Nationwide series, and maybe Cup, could mean for future women drivers. I
hate the idea that it's up to Danica to prove what a girl can do behind
the wheel, but that's unfortunately what this media frenzy is going to
do. No other women have been given the opportunities like she has, and
even though there are some good prospects out there, none of them get
that same level of attention or consideration for competitive rides at
the top levels of Indycar or NASCAR. And for every Simona De Silvestro
we have a Milka Duno, for every Johanna Long we have a Jennifer Jo Cobb
to cancel out any of the positive perceptions those good women drivers
can create, by living up to exactly what the male-dominated old guard of
auto racing thinks of women behind the wheel. They ruin it for others by
being vapid idiots, with seemingly no awareness of what happens around
them on the track. Simona and Johanna have true potential. Will they
ever be able to show it? And for the poster asking for one female stock
car driver that is relegated to a worse ride than men of equal talent,
I've already mentioned her several times: Johanna Long. Anyone that
knows about Johanna's abilities outside of NASCAR know that she should
be driving a better truck than the #20.

If Danica can show that she's at least somewhat competitive, say on the
level of an AJ Allmendinger, she could open up those better rides for
talented women like De Silvestro or Johanna Long who otherwise are going
to be stuck as field fillers like every other woman driver that's come
before. And sadly, this is a complicated feminist issue for me, because
the main reason Danica has been able to sustain her place in auto racing
is because she has used the shallowness of celebrity, and exploiting her
own body to maintain attention and her status. Some might call it being
savvy, I call it being cheap. But sponsors don't come by easily,
especially when most of them are for products generally aimed at men and
won't consider having a woman spokesperson, but then again glass
ceilings are hard to break through without some help, so I guess I have
to take the good with the bad. I hope that Danica can open some more
doors for women, but I also worry that she could make things worse. I'd
hate to think that a woman would have to be a good driver AND attractive
to get the same opportunities as a man.


  145.   Talon64 posted:
  08.23.2011 - 6:13 pm
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Trevor Bayne and the #16 Roush NNS team have a new CC; Chris Andrews is
out and Chad Norris, who's been in and out as a CC with Roush in NNS
since 2005, will replace him.

Norris has 2 NNS wins, first one with Kenseth in 2005 and then just this
past weekend as Ambrose's CC in Montreal.

http://www.racing-reference.info/crewchiefs/Chad_Norris


  146.   Scott B posted:
  08.23.2011 - 6:29 pm
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Johanna Long has potential, but she's very green.

Last season: 6 truck starts, 2 DNF's due to crashes.

This season: 12 truck starts, 3 DNF's due to crashes.

No, not all of those wrecks were necessarily her fault, but those aren't
the numbers you want to see when deciding who gets the top rides or
moved up to the next level.

ARCA or a lower tier truck team is pretty much the right place for her
to be at this stage in her career while she learns superspeedways and
longer race durations.

If you want to see her succeed in the long term, you probably should be
glad she's avoided Johanna-mania and being rushed to a level where she's
way over her head.

But do I believe she's being held back by her gender... no.


  147.   The Deuce posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:13 pm
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I had no idea my post on the Nationwide page had been copied over here
(no worries, Pk84, glad you did it actually), but I suppose it works
better over here anyway as more people will probably see it.

"But do I believe she's being held back by her gender... no."

I'm not an expert on Johanna Long outside of the Truck series, but I
think she's still too new to make that determination. However, if she is
as good as KahnesGal4 says, we could run into a situation where she
never gets a good enough ride to show she can be a good NASCAR driver.
Certainly that problem wouldn't be unique to her just because she's a
woman, but if it happened specifically because she's a woman then that's
where we have a problem.

"I challenge the author of that post to name ONE female driver in stock
cars that has been relegated to lesser equipment that a man of equal
talents. That is pure BS. And, no I don't want to hear any whining about
what goes on in open wheel racing, I just don't care."

Considering there are a lot of women race car drivers out there, I think
just looking at the percentage of them that have made it up to the
upper-3 levels of NASCAR is discouraging. I think that says a lot about
how much discrimination must take place at the lower levels of auto
racing. If you're going to try to convince me that a man and a woman of
equal talent will the face the same level of scrutiny and have the same
rides available to them as they advance up through the ranks before they
get to NASCAR, let me stop you right there, because that's ludicrous.
Maybe I can't name one specific driver that's been a victim of gender
prejudice, but isn't that more likely because so few have ever even been
able to make it this far? Someone better with stats can confirm this,
but I believe only a dozen or so women have ever started a Cup race, and
a lot of those came when it was far cheaper and easier to qualify and
run a race here and there. Have any ever been given the sponsorship or
opportunity to run a full Cup season? No, they haven't.

So you have to ask yourself, do you think that no women have wanted to
make it in the Cup series as a full time driver? Or is it that have none
of them been good enough to make it as a full time driver? If you
believe the former, then you agree that women are not getting all of the
same opportunities. If you believe the latter, then I hate to say it,
but you might be a little prejudiced.


  148.   00andJoe posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:21 pm
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"Anyone that knows about Johanna's abilities outside of NASCAR know that
she should be driving a better truck than the #20."

I agree, completely. The trouble with Johanna, though - and one of the
really, REALLY big things Danica has that will get her in Cup Far Too
Soon - is that she doesn't already have a sponsor behind her.

I'm concerned that NASCAR is starting to go the way that CART went:
rides go to drivers who bring sponsorship with them, regardless of what
talent they may or may not have, and those who have true talent but no
sponsor bucks to bring to the table get left out in the cold.


  149.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:31 pm
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The biggest drawback to female drivers in the Cup is the fact that most
women (no offense) are not as physically enduring or strong as men are.
That is why most of them struggle in NASCAR and ARCA, but not Indy; the
heat basically fries them into exhaustion long before the race is over.
A/Cs still have a loooooooong way to come in racing. The biggest
disadvantage female drivers have is that they get rushed to the NNS and
CWTS based on their gender and the publicity it draws; they struggle to
adapt and end up quitting and deciding to start families.


  150.   Anonymous posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:31 pm
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"I'm concerned that NASCAR is starting to go the way that CART went:
rides go to drivers who bring sponsorship with them, regardless of what
talent they may or may not have, and those who have true talent but no
sponsor bucks to bring to the table get left out in the cold. "

Sad, but probably true. Try as they might, NASCAR just can't seem to
keep costs down for teams, and in this tough economy coupled with
dwindling exposure and attendance, sponsors are less and less willing to
fork over the kind of money needed.

And not to direct the conversation away from women in NASCAR, which I
actually am finding to be quite interesting, this sponsor issue is also
something worth discussing. We've already seen its ramifications with
Kevin Conway, and now Danica and Travis Pastrana are getting rides the
same way. The only difference though, is those 2 have talent, while
Kevin Conway is one of the worst drivers I've ever seen in my life. You
could even say Scott Speed got his Cup ride the same way. It's not
something NASCAR can just ignore.


  151.   Hal posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:42 pm
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"The biggest drawback to female drivers in the Cup is the fact that most
women (no offense) are not as physically enduring or strong as men are."

That is actually worth noting. It's not misogynistic, in fact modern
feminism actually embraces and celebrates the differences between men
and women, rather than the previous waves of feminism that adopted a,
"women can do anything men can do" attitude.

...But, for example, look at a guy like Joey Logano (scrawny) or Tony
Stewart (out of shape)... they can do it just fine. A woman could obtain
the type of strength and endurance needed to drive a Cup car through
training quite easily. I mean just look at some of the women in the
Olympics. There are tons of women athletes out there capable of
withstanding the rigors of a race. Danica has even run some of these
Nationwide races that are only about an hour shorter than a Cup race,
and she doesn't get out of the car looking like she doesn't have another
hour or racing left in her. And she's a pretty small woman, with not a
whole lot of muscle definition. So it's not like a woman would have to
completely wreck her feminine looks to be able to wheel a Cup car for 3
hours.


  152.   Hal posted:
  08.23.2011 - 7:48 pm
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And to follow up on my last comment, there is also precedent that a
woman can run a full Cup race no problem. Janet Guthrie ran several 500
miles races at places like Bristol, Dover, Darlington and Pocono. And
that was back in the days when the cars were in even more difficult to
drive.

The only problem I see with Danica is her getting used to a 36 race
season. She can handle the individual races fine, but that long season
wears on you.


  153.   00andJoe posted:
  08.23.2011 - 11:38 pm
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"Try as they might, NASCAR just can't seem to keep costs down for teams"

I personally think their "cost-cutting" measures have actually had the
opposite effect. Banning testing at active tracks, for instance, means
you now have to go rent a track, usually on your own, instead of having
a "test day" where a bunch of teams show up like they used to. Limits on
tires and car parts mean you have to tweak the cars that much more
themselves to gain back what you lost. And so on...


  154.   BON GORDON posted:
  08.24.2011 - 12:05 am
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I also created a list on Microsoft word of the fifty greatest NASCAR
Sprint Cup Drivers as well. My Top Ten are....

1st: Richard Petty
2nd: Dale Earnhardt Sr.
3rd: David Pearson
4th: Jeff Gordon
5th: Jimmie Johnson (people will disagree but is truely one of the best
ever)
6th: Cale Yarborough
7th: Darrell Waltrip
8th: Bobby Allison
9th: Lee Petty
10th: Herb Thomas


  155.   The Deuce posted:
  08.24.2011 - 1:06 am
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"So you have to ask yourself, do you think that no women have wanted to
make it in the Cup series as a full time driver? Or is it that have none
of them been good enough to make it as a full time driver? If you
believe the former, then you agree that women are not getting all of the
same opportunities."

I was just reading back over this, and I realized I need to make a
correction. That first sentence should read: So you have to ask
yourself, do you think that women have wanted to make it in the Cup
series as a full time driver?

The extra "no" in there made the rest of it not make much sense. If you
believe that women drivers have wanted to become full time Cup drivers,
and none have, then you agree that women are probably not getting all of
the same opportunities.

Hopefully that clears it up, sorry for any confusion. Typed it up too
quickly.


  156.   00andJoe posted:
  08.24.2011 - 4:08 am
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One thing to be careful of when ranking Jimmie Johnson is - are his five
championships due more to him or due to the caliber of his competition?

Many of the Great Drivers of the past may have been competing against
mediocre fields as a whole, but they were also competing against other
Great Drivers - sometimes multiple ones. During Jimmie's reign, there
really haven't been any Greats to challenge him, bar Gordon who has, for
the most part, been on a "down" compared to his peak. Tony Stewart and
Mark Martin are sure-fire hall-of-famers but aren't among the very
Greatest of the Great in the rarified air that Pearson, Petty and
Yarborough are at.

Kyle Busch has the talent to become one of the all-time greats, if he
can just harness his temper. (And, in my mind, it doesn't really matter
if the harnessing is "genuine" or sponsor-imposed - even if it's the
latter, if imposed long enough, it'll become the natural norm through
sheer habit). Other than Kyle, though, there don't seem to be too many
Future Greats around...


  157.   cjs3872 posted:
  08.24.2011 - 9:06 am
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Sorry, I was unable to respond to some posts, but my computer crashed
again.

Anyway, 00andJoe, Jimmie Johnson's five championships are due to one
thing, and that's the Chase. If it weren't for the Chase, I doubt he
would have more than one or two, at the most. And the reason I have
Bobby Allison #2 all-time is because that's where he ranks in top 5s and
top 10s, as well as his versatility, which even Earnhardt lacked.
Possibly including Petty, Allison was the most versatile driver of the
"era of legends". I believe even Roger Penske holds the opinion that
Allison is one of the greatest drivers that he has ever had, which says
a lot, considering all the great drivers he's had over ythe years, and
he still holds a high degree of respect for Allison, to this day.

Now as for Trevor Bayne getting a new crew chief for his Nationwide car.
It had to happen because at Iowa, his crew left a rear tire loose on
three consecutive pit stops, and at Montreal you had the situation
regarding the lack of warning for the Dufault car, due in part to the
lack of a spotter that could have warned him potentioal trouble, which
he apparently was not too happy about. The lack of warning about
Dufault's car could have got him, or Dufault seriously injured, or even
killed. It's one thing to have a lack of performace, but it's another
thing entirely to put have a driver out there in an unsafe condition,
and that's what his crew, and possibly his crew chief, were doing. It
was putting Bayne out there in an unsafe condition. And even if he
didn't want to, Roush had to make a change, for Trevor's safety if
nothing else.


  158.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.24.2011 - 10:28 am
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"I'm concerned that NASCAR is starting to go the way that CART went:
rides go to drivers who bring sponsorship with them, regardless of what
talent they may or may not have, and those who have true talent but no
sponsor bucks to bring to the table get left out in the cold."

I am afraid you are right. Actually, we are already seeing this water
down the talent in NASCAR's top Series. In theory, the NWide Series
should be where talented newcomers get a ride with an NWide team, learn
the ropes of driving in a National touring Series, then if they are good
enough, get a Cup ride.

That has been thrown out the window recently because the talented people
can't get a sponsor if they have no connections to sponsors or owners.
We are seeing too many people like John Wes Townley, Kevin Conway, Brian
Scott, Brendan Gaughan, Paul Menard (I know he has done really well
lately, but he didn't exactly earn his sponsorship), Steve Wallace,
Michael Annett, etc. take up space in cars more talented people could be
driving and earning their way into Cup. Combine this with the Cup
invasion, and nobody is being developed.

The result is a dried up talent pipeline. This has already affected Cup
big time. To me, that is the one thing that detracts from JJ's streak.
Some people want to say the cha$e takes away from his accomplishments.
Although I hate the cha$e, I cannot disagree more. Everybody knows that
is how the champion is determined. If it were the old style, the 48
would adjust their strategy.

But the fact is, during his reign, there has been no new drivers pop up
to threaten him. In his first championship season, the top 5 in points
were rounded out by Matt Kenseth, Denny Hamlin, Kevin Harvick, and June.
In 2010, it was rounded out by Denny Hamlin, Kevin Harvick, Carl Edwards
('05 and '08 runner up), and Matt Kenseth. Notice a pattern? If Carl
could just switch his '05 and '06 seasons, it would be the EXACT SAME
Top 5 with a few position differences. Nobody has entered the sport in
2007 or later and been able to challenge for a title.

Compare that to Dale Earnhardt's best 5 year stretch, '86-'90. In 1986,
Mark Martin wasn't even on the radar outside the Mid West short track
circuit. He was the cocky ASA champ who had come into NASCAR a few years
earlier and was badly humbled, forced back to the ASA, already washed
up. In 1990, he damn near stared Dale down. In 1986, Rusty Wallace won
his first races. 4 years later, he actually beat Dale for the title. JJ
has had nobody pop up like that to surprise him and present a new threat.

Since 2007, only one person has gone from a nobody with no name and no
connections, been given a chance based on potential alone, and moved up
the ranks to become a multiple time winner. That is Brad. When 2007
began, he was struggling big time with Keith Coleman's severely
underfunded operation, DNQing a few times. June gave him a chance based
on a very impressive one off Truck run, and he did well for JR
Motorsports. In the offseason, they merged with HMS, Brad got to stick
around, became a NWide winner, and the rest is history..... sort of.

Even his road had some curves in it. When he stunned the Cup world with
his Talladega win in '09 with a small time team that usually S&Ped but
were loaned an HMS chassis and motor, it just seemed natural that Brad
would take over one of Rick's cars and become the next HMS star. Not
exactly. There were no open rides at HMS. In the past, this wouldn't
have mattered much, there would be a ton of good rides with sponsors who
wanted to be with a successful team. The best he could do was Penske
Racing's #12 car with an outlaw sponsor.

He suffered through a miserable 2010 before getting another good break
with Penske teaming with Shell and Pennzoil, leaving them with two big
time sponsors (along with Miller). This opened up the Blue Deuce, and
after a rough start to 2011, he is just now able to shine week in and
week out.

Yeah, this system is broken.


  159.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.24.2011 - 10:30 am
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Junior Johnson, somebody that had a very nasty split with Bobby Allison
then feuded with him for the next 11 years, said if he had kept Bobby,
they would have 200 wins, not Richard.

Do I even need to say who I think the best driver ever is?


  160.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.24.2011 - 10:38 am
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cjs, I thought you would like this picture (minus the awful camera
focus, and Kenny Wallace there for some reason) of Kenseth with Lone
Star JR.

http://twitpic.com/6agk3s


  161.   Scott B posted:
  08.24.2011 - 12:58 pm
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OK, I'll say it point blank. No, I don't believe any woman I've seen so
far has had enough talent to stick in Cup.

And, once again, if a woman comes along with even the possibility of
having enough talent to make it in Cup, she will not be held back. In
fact, she will have BETTER opportunities than a man with equal talents.
Sponsors are licking their chops waiting for that to happen. Danica is
living proof.

Deuce, you are saying that because women haven't had equal results, it
proves they haven't had equal opportunities. That simply isn't valid logic.


  162.   18fan posted:
  08.24.2011 - 1:16 pm
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Most people that overlook Bobby Allison do so because of 1 thing: The
fact that he only won one title. Despite competing against Petty and
Pearson without major factory support in the 60s and beating them, plus
competing against Cale, DW and even Earnhardt despite being much older
than Dale and DW in the late 70s and 80s, he still was very competitive
and he still is 3rd in all time wins(although the way Jeff Gordon is
running right now he'll be 4th soon), second in top 3 finishes, second
in top 5 finishes, second in top 10 finishes(11 ahead of Mark Martin,
who may or may not catch him), 3rd in laps led(including a modern era
record 4343 in 1972). Add to the fact that he won for 13 DIFFERENT car
owners, he's the oldest champion ever at 46, and he was still battling
for wins at age 50 in his final season. Bobby truly deserves to be
considered to be the greatest driver of all time.


  163.   KahnesGal4 posted:
  08.24.2011 - 1:51 pm
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"OK, I'll say it point blank. No, I don't believe any woman I've seen so
far has had enough talent to stick in Cup.

And, once again, if a woman comes along with even the possibility of
having enough talent to make it in Cup, she will not be held back. In
fact, she will have BETTER opportunities than a man with equal talents.
Sponsors are licking their chops waiting for that to happen. Danica is
living proof.

Deuce, you are saying that because women haven't had equal results, it
proves they haven't had equal opportunities. That simply isn't valid logic."

I wish I lived in your fantasy world. That would be great. Then maybe
I'd get paid the same as a man, and have more opportunities to be
promoted. But I also work in a male-dominated business (internet
technology/cable installation), and the fact is, the world isn't equal.
I know you want to believe it is, but it's not. A female race car driver
is simply not going to get the same opportunities as a man. It's always
going to be about more than just her results, it will also be her looks
that influence everyone's opinion. A woman like Danica will get more
opportunities than a less attractive woman, regardless of talent. The
same holds true in every other business.

You think sponsors are salivating at the idea of a female Cup driver?
Hogwash. If you don't think any woman has ever been a better driver than
Kevin Conway, or Scott Speed, or the hundreds of other crappy drivers
that have run in the back of the field their entire careers yet somehow
managed to maintain a Cup ride for at least one full season, then you
truly are ignorant. (Thank you to The Deuce for pointing out that no
woman has ever had a full time Cup ride, I thought Guthrie did at least
one season)

"OK, I'll say it point blank. No, I don't believe any woman I've seen so
far has had enough talent to stick in Cup."

I think that about sums up your opinion right there. Now I see why
you're so hostile towards Danica. The idea of a woman succeeding in this
sport makes you uncomfortable. If Janet Guthrie wasn't still alive and
kicking, she'd be rolling around in her grave right now. There have been
plenty of talented women race car drivers that could do better than
Kevin Conway, but you haven't seen any of them running a full Cup season
now have you? Want to know why? Probably because they have a difficult
time getting the respect they deserve, getting the rides they deserve,
and getting the opportunities to prove themselves in the lower levels.

In the same way that racism didn't die just because we have a black
president, sexism never died just because women got the right to vote
and aren't constantly relegated to the kitchen.


  164.   Scott B posted:
  08.24.2011 - 3:02 pm
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DSFF,

I wouldn't really consider Brad Kesolowski unconnected. His family was
around racing long enough that the name was well known in racing
circles, and that may have opened some doors. When you start looking at
long list of drivers who either come from wealthy families or families
with racing connections or a combination of both, you really start to
appreciate how hard it is to get to the top of the heap with neither of
those advantages. There are examples of this going back to the early
days of NASCAR, so it isn't new, but it does seem to be trending in that
direction more than ever.

And since you mentioned the Coleman NNW operation, let me just point out
that both Jennifer Jo Cobb and Shawna Robinson also drove for that team.
So, they had the same opportunity... different result. Discrimination?
Or just reaching the limitations of your talents?


  165.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.24.2011 - 5:26 pm
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Yes, the Keselowski family has a long history in racing, but not in the
big leagues. All that got him was a ride in their Truck which was
underfunded. It got his foot in the door, and not much further. Kinda
like how Dale Earnhardt and Rusty Wallace both had fathers that were
very successful dirt track racers. That exposed them to the sport, to
the mindset needed to be a racer, and got some people to pay them
attention. But outside of that, they were on their own.


  166.   Anonymous posted:
  08.24.2011 - 5:53 pm
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my top 10 drivers

1. David Pearson (his win % and overall consistancy plus qualifying, he
had a lot of wins left on the table, if he was around at the finish, he
had a chance at the win)

2. Richard Petty (his stats speak for themselves, he is the king)

3. Bobby Allison (he won 85!! times in 718 races which puts him one win
ahead of Waltrip in 90 fewer races, he won for 13 different car owners,
in 9 different brands of car, dispite all the juggling between teams he
won races, he won 5 of them in a row in 1971, he led 39 races in a row
between Darlington in september 1971, and Rockingham in october 1972, he
led 4300 laps during the 1972 season, a modern era record, and finished
1st or 2nd in 22 of 31 races, he later left that team, had he stayed
there with Junior Johnson, he would've won well over 130 races imo, plus
he could win at any racetrack, he is the oldest champion and was still
winning races at age 50 plus, had he not had his crash at pocono in 1988
he could've won more.)

4. Cale Yarborough (the mans win % isn't that far from pearsons or
petty's with 83 wins in 560 starts, 4 daytona 500's, 3 consecutive real
championships, and the thing that impresses me the most is the laps led,
he's 24th all time in laps completed, and 2nd in laps led, during his
career he spent 21.8% of the laps he ran in the lead, in the 1970's he
spent 31% of his laps in the lead, and over 22000 in one decade, led
over 3000 laps in 5 seasons, also led wire to wire at bristol in 1973,
and in 1977 he won the championship with 5000 points in 30 races, not to
mention 4 wins in a row in '76, he could've won a lot more with Junior
Johnson also, with more full time seasons, over 100 wins easily, and
more championships)

5. Dale Earnhardt (he won championships and races in the most
competitive times, and you could never ever count him out, could come
back from laps down to win the race, he was a hard charger, like
Yarborough, but consistant like Allison, and based off how kevin harvick
ran in 2001, there is no doubt that Earnhardt would've given Gordon a
serious run for the title. There is no team better the RCR at building a
bullet proof car, and with Dale Earnhardt behind the wheel, the wins,
championships, and consistancy rolled in, except in 1992)

6. Jeff Gordon (like Earnhardt he won championships, and races in the
most competive era, he was raised to drive a racecar, he started winning
early, and climbed to the top of the mountain, he's won on 23 of the 25
tracks he's raced on in his cup career, he's won 13 races in a year, won
four in a row, won every major event multiple times, he's won 5
guarenteed real championships, 6 depending on how you feel about 2004,
and he's not done yet, and he's only in his first year with Alan
Gustafson, based off what he did in his second year with Robbie Loomis,
2001, or what he did in his second year with Steve Letarte, 2007, 2012
could be a year to remember for Super G, I predict 90 plus wins for the Guy)

7. Darrell Waltrip (the only reason why I have Darrell this far down on
the list, is because his win % is the lowest of any of the major 70+ win
superstars, plus I feel there really weren't any wins left on the the
table, during his prime as a driver, he was with top race teams, Darrell
was a young hot shot during his years with the DiGard team, winning 26
races, then went to Juniors team from 1981 to 1986, won three
championships, 24 races across 81 and 82, a modern era record across 2
seasons, and 43 wins total, but after 86 Juniors operation had been to
the peak and was headed back down, Darrell went to Hendrick Motorsports,
he won 9 races including the 89 Daytona 500. In 91 He started his own
team where he won his last 5 races, the thing about Darrell is that
other then 7 straight wins in Bristol, and 24 wins in two years he has
no records, and neither of the above are that much better then what the
above drivers have done. He raced full time, for good race teams, and
stuck around for 8 years after he stopped winning, he's great, but not
the greatest)

8. Jimmie Johnson (the fact that he has one twice as many races as
anyone else since the start of the 2002 season speaks volumes, he's not
as versatile as Jeff Gordon, but he's pretty good everywhere, I use the
old points system, but he's still one 2 guarenteed, possibly 3
championships and never finished outside the top 5 in points)

9. Herb Thomas (48 wins in just 228 starts, the 51 and 53 Grand National
Champion, the highest win % of any driver ever, drove the fabulous
Hudson Hornet, and who knows if could've won 2 of his next 3 races he
would've beaten Jeff Gordon as the fastest driver to 50 career wins,
Jeff did that in 232 starts)

10. Fred Lorenzen (Nascar's original Golden Boy is the difinition of
retired way to early, he won 26 times in just 158 races, he was also a
big money driver, running part time, running and winning big races in
his #28 Ford Galaxie, he won the World 600 in 63 and 65 and the Daytona
500 in 65, still an accomplishment despite the race being rain shortened
and the field being wiped clean of all Chrysler Hemi products, and GM
removing all factory support 2 years prior, he also damn near one the
race Daytona 500 in 63 if it weren't for fuel strategy, and also won
lots of major events at Atlanta, Darlington, Rockingham, and Bristol


  167.   Scott B posted:
  08.24.2011 - 6:14 pm
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It's also worth noting that connections and talent are not mutually
exclusive.

Richard Petty, Buddy Baker, Davey Allison... :)


  168.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  08.25.2011 - 12:48 am
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"Yes, the Keselowski family has a long history in racing, but not in the
big leagues. All that got him was a ride in their Truck which was
underfunded. It got his foot in the door, and not much further."

Exactly. Brad was lucky that his family was able to help him get his
foot in the door, but he was on his own as far as working himself into a
good ride went. He got that opportunity to drive the #9 truck at Memphis
in '07, and made the most of it.

The biggest thing about Bobby Allison is probably that he changed teams
a lot, which probably stunted a lot of momentum that he could have had.
We all know good team chemistry is a virtue when it comes to race teams.
I agree that he deserves to be considered for one of the best NASCAR
drivers.


  169.   John Royal posted:
  08.25.2011 - 1:45 am
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"The biggest drawback to female drivers in the Cup is the fact that most
women (no offense) are not as physically enduring or strong as men are."

That is such a bullcrap. Every sport follower know that NASCAR is more
about mental endurance than physical. In past when NASCAR was a lot more
physical (no seat paddings, no heat dispatchers, no power steering, etc
etc) you saw a lot more unfit drivers. Allison, Trickle, Spencer,
McDuffie, anyone? They wouldn't f**king catch a chicken, but they hell
could steer a 1.5ton race car in southern heat. Also injured drivers
have always do it well behind the wheel, Petty, Earnhardt, Rudd,
Keselowski. Tim Richmond with a f**king AIDS.

Danica while been racing in Indycars has definitely had a glimpse of
physical endurance too, and survived it.

But it is true that good physical condition helps you better keep your
head cool and help to concentrate into racing at race's final stages,
when it all matters. That's why they like to keep themselves fit.

And sure Danica can stand the heat, shes f**king hot himself.


  170.   Anonymous posted:
  08.25.2011 - 1:47 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Scott B,

You are overrating Keith Coleman's equipment and Brad had terrible
results in Keith Coleman matter of fact. You made it sound like Brad was
doing great for Keith Coleman when the truth is Brad did shit racing
while racing for Keith Coleman and Mark Green actually had a better
average finish for Keith Coleman than Brad did.

Brad Keselowski's best finish with Coleman was 24th at Dover in 2007.
That tells you right there that Keith Coleman didn't have great equipment.

Mark Green actually gave Keith Coleman his best finish as an owner with
it being 11th at Telladega. Mark Green actually had other finishes that
were higher than 24th place in a Keith Coleman owned Busch series car.

It doesn't matter what gender you were if you were racing for Keith
Coleman, his equipment was on the same level as Jay Robinson's and that
wasn't even mid pack equipment.


  171.   John Royal posted:
  08.25.2011 - 2:41 am
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*herself, thank goddess


  172.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.25.2011 - 8:02 am
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If Bobby and Junior could have made it work, he'd have won 7
championships (including '72 when they were undone by their inability to
communicate) and he would be the one tied with Dale. He'd also have well
over 100 wins.


  173.   Scott B posted:
  08.25.2011 - 10:48 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Comment #170,

Where did I say Coleman had great equipment? I understand it is a low
budget operation. The point was a talented driver was able to use it to
reach the next rung on the ladder.

Yes, Mark Green did have better finishes than Brad in his term with
Coleman. Brad was in his early 20's at the time, Mark in his late 40's,
past the "up and coming" stage of his career. Mark also did himself with
Coleman with 10 DNQ's in 2005, a struggling operation can't bleed money
by not making the field, and Brad was much better at getting the car in
the show.


  174.   LordLowe posted:
  08.25.2011 - 5:14 pm
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BTW I think Danica's full time jump into NASCAR will end up crashing and
burning big time.


  175.   Talon64 posted:
  08.25.2011 - 5:20 pm
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The rumor mill now has Home Depot possibly going over to the #99 with
Carl. Guess if they couldn't lure Carl over to JGR then they can just go
to Carl themselves. That'd be bad news for the #20 team and Joey Logano.

And 5-Hour Energy could be sponsoring the #33 RCR car next season, which
would be a big help in keeping Clint Bowyer.


  176.   Spen posted:
  08.25.2011 - 6:36 pm
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Scott: Two words for anyone who thinks that a woman with an iota of
talent would get opportunities to move up: Shawna Wilskey. In the late
'90's, she was one of the, if not *the* best sprint car driver on the
west coast. In all my years of watching racing, only Janet Guthrie has
ever impressed me more. Could she have made it at a higher level? I
don't know, but we never found out. Why? Because she's kinda
horse-faced, and probably doesn't look very good in a bikini. She's not
good sponsor material, so she got hung out to dry.

"no woman has ever had a full time Cup ride" That's not quite true. Sara
Christian ran 6 out of the 8 races in 1949, which was pretty much a full
season. No one ran more than six races that year. Sara is also the
exception to the claim that no woman has ever had top-notch equiptment.
While he's generally forgotten today, Frank Christian's team was one of
the top five teams of the late '40's/early '50's. Heck, they nearly won
a championship with Fonty Flock. And overall, Sara did a competent job.
Not only did she get a top five at Heidelberg, she had a more impressive
sixth-place finish at Langhorne, beyond a doubt the most difficult track
on the 1949 schedule, and also the race with the deepest field. Under
the Latford system, she would have tied for sixth in points with Fonty
Flock. (And in the opinion of my dad, Fonty was the best driver of the
1940's, so that's an accomplishment!) Unfortunately, she only ran seven
races total in her career, thanks to a lingering leg injury from a wreck
at Occoneechee. (A wreck which pre-dated her top tens, by the way.)
We'll never know if she could have contended further. But she did prove
that a woman can run solid in Cup.

That's enough heavy topic for now. On to the fun stuff: greatest driver
ever debate!

Cjs: "I have Baker ahead of Thomas due to the fact that he had a longer
career, and for me, longevity is important, especially if you're
comparing contemporaries with similar stats, as Baker and Thomas do"
Fair enough, I suppose (though Thomas's career would have been far
longer if not for Kiekaefer.). This is a hard one for me, since Buck was
one of my favourites growing up, and Herb I've only heard about
second-hand. But looking at it purely from a statistical vantage point,
Baker had two seasons where he was "the guy to beat". And those two
years were excellent, especially '57. But outside of those two years, he
never won more than four races in any other season, and while he had a
long period of being a consistent performer, he wasn't really dominant
outside of those two years. Thomas on the other hand, had seven or more
wins in four seasons, and up until his injury in '55, he was clearly the
top driver in NASCAR. After that injury, he became more of a "Darrell
Waltrip post-1983" driver. More of a points racer (he was leading the
standings at the time of his career-ending crash in '56.). But another
important factor to me is versatility. Baker clearly was *far* better on
dirt than he was on pavement. Three Southern 500 wins aside (which
Thomas also has), he didn't win very much on paved tracks. Actually, in
the roughly 300 races on pavement that he ran during his career, he won
a grand total of six of them. Thomas on the other hand, only ran about
30 races on pavement in his career, and he won eight of them. This
indicates to me, that he would have adapted to the '60's better than
Buck did. (Of course, a lot would have depended on what he was driving.
Poor choice of manufacturer is the main reason Buck's career went
downhill.) Buck does hold the record for being the oldest driver to get
a top-ten finish (a sixth place at *Darlington* in a secondary car for
Junie Donlavey. At 57. Eat your heart out, Mark.), and his '57 season is
one of the best on record, but overall, the stats seem to back Herb.
Buck was better on road courses, though.

I'm glad to see Junior Johnson on your top-ten list. In the days of
unreliable equiptment, most drivers that pushed the car too hard would
end up blowing up far more than they'd win. Buddy Baker and Curtis
Turner would be classic examples. They both ended up with less than 20
wins. But even driving in an era that did not suit his style at all, he
still won fifty(!) times. Now imagine him in an era when cars are almost
bullet-proof... ladies and gentleman, we have a new Dale Earnhardt.

I still think you're underrating Pearson a tad. While you're points are
valid, I give him major points for turning Cotton Owens team from a
respectable, but second-tier operation, into championship-winning. And
for raising the Wood Brothers from excellent to legendary. Not to
mention, as of 1976 he'd won at every single track that was currently on
the schedule. I believe only Petty can also claim that, and that was
solely due to Ontario being taken off the schedule. And for what it's
worth, he was without a doubt the best qualifyer in history. And the
thing that impresses me most statistically, is how evenly divided his
win total was. 20-someodd wins on dirt, short tracks, intermediates, and
superspeedways, with a few road course wins thrown in for good measure.
Yeah, his prime ended earlier than the other greats, but I believe
that's mostly because of the quality of rides he had after leaving the
Wood Brothers.

DSFF: Excellent points regarding 1964. Another major influence over the
next couple of years was Ford withdrawing factory support in '66 and
'67. Everyone knows about Chrysler pulling out in '65, but Ford's
withdraw had more long-term affect. It pretty much killed the careers of
Jarrett, Johnson, Lorenzen, Panch and Hutcherson. Thereby allowing
Pearson and Yarborough to take over as Ford's new top dogs in '68, and
giving them both an inflated win total by virtue of not having as many
other Ford teams to compete with. The departure of many of the old stars
also caused a major rise in "underfunded independents". Prior to the
mid-sixties, only L.D. Austin, Herman Beam and Wendell Scott had really
tried to make a career of running their own cars without manufacturer
support. Ford's departure opened the doors for Hylton, Sears, Marcis and
many others to try making a living without a large bankroll.

I wish that I had been around to watch the early sixties. No one driver
really emerged as dominant, quite a few drivers had manufacturer
backing, and from what I've seen, the racing was pretty darn good. There
was no shortage of good drivers with good rides. Rex White, Ned Jarrett,
Buck Baker, Richard Petty, Joe Weatherly, Junior Johnson, Fireball
Roberts, Fred Lorenzen, Jack Smith, Marvin Panch, and I'm probably
forgetting someone. Okay, some of them only ran part-time, but when they
did all come together, you had yourself a show. For a good example,
check out the results of the 1962 Southern 500 AKA the single most
impressive upset in history.

Anonymous: "the thing about Darrell is that other then 7 straight wins
in Bristol, and 24 wins in two years he has no records" Not quite true.
He's won the World 600 a record five times, back in the days when that
really was an endurance race that mattered. He's also second only to
Petty in short track wins, led at least 2000 laps a year for seven
straight years, and turned DiGard from a well-founded, but winless
organization into championship contenders (though it took Allison to get
them over the hump. Heh, heh.). The thing that hurts DW compared to the
others, is the sense that whatever he did, someone else could have done
just as well. When he drove for DiGard, they were excellent, but
couldn't win the title. They got one with Bobby. When he was with Junior
Johnson, he won three titles. So did Cale. He had a six-win season at
Hendrick. Richmond had a seven-win season three years earlier. His
owner-driver tenure started out good, but he wasn't a title contender.
Kulwicki won a title at the same time. Plus, he hung around well past
his sell by date. To the point that after he retired, Todd Bodine was an
improvement! (Ouch.) Oh yeah, and most of us didn't like him very much
when he was driving, so we tend to place him lower than he perhaps deserves.

Okay, this time I'm saving my comment before I post. I'm not going to
lose another one for being too long.


  177.   Spen posted:
  08.25.2011 - 7:18 pm
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Sorry for the double post, but I just read Danica's announcment. So
she's gonna be running a few Cup races next year. Now, under no
circumstances would Tony allow there to be a chance of her missing the
show, so this won't be a part-time car. They'll have to buy the owner
points of one of the Red Bull cars, and have someone else run the car in
most of the races to ensure that Danica's locked in the top-35. So I
think this answers the question of what Mark Martin will be doing next
year. He could probably keep the car solidly mid-pack, with an
occasional top-ten thrown in, give the team a good idea of what they're
doing right and wrong, and best of all, Mark's driving style and
Danica's are similar enough that a Martin setup would feel comfortable
to her.

Of course, this does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into my hopes that
Mark would take a full-time Truck ride at Turner after Buescher moves
up, so that he could have a chance to finally win a NASCAR championship
of some kind. I suppose he could still do that, but someone else would
have to drive the car on non-companion weekends.

Let's see, someone with experience, who's out of a ride currently, not
interested in running full-time, has Hendrick connections, and ideally
would have a Past Champions provisional, in case they can't buy the
owner points. Who could that be? Bill Elliott. Chase is already driving
for Hendrick in Busch North, and Bill was driving a Hendrick-affiliated
car earlier this year. It does seem like the Elliott family is getting
closer to the Hendrick camp... This is all mainly a pipe dream, but I'd
love to see Bill get one last shot with a semi-competitive car. I don't
want his career to end on a long no top-ten streak. And I want him to
get a farewell race of his choosing, not just fade away into the night.


  178.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.26.2011 - 9:35 am
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"BTW I think Danica's full time jump into NASCAR will end up crashing
and burning big time."

I think you are right. She has simply not shown nearly enough on track.
She is also yet another driver that lets things get under her skin, and
that is never a good thing. Plus her owners, and the people she will
probably get the most advice from, are not good mentors. June is
basically a walking zombie out there, and Smoke can credit his success
to one thing and one thing only: outerworldly talent. You can't teach
that. His attitude is mostly awful and has held him back. Also, she is
being rushed. 8-10 Cup races already? I don't see that going well. And
finally, I think the long schedule will get to her. I don't think she
has the talent or mental acquity to handle this.


  179.   Scott B posted:
  08.26.2011 - 12:47 pm
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Spen,

SHR and Go Daddy may not make it a shared ride for 2012. It would add a
lot of expense, and given the quality of the cars they'll have to beat
out in qualifying, they may just take their chances.

I do agree Mark Martin would be the obvious, overwhelming #1 choice for
that duty if the seat becomes available. Just to throw out a couple of
other names, Terry Labonte or Brian Vickers are two that come to mind.

It'll be interesting to see how the #14 and #39 cars run in 2012 &
2013... whether the influx of money helps the SHR organization overall,
or if the media circus around Danica causes a loss of focus. I can see
that going either way.


  180.   KBM18 posted:
  08.26.2011 - 1:25 pm
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Kevin Harvick at Bristol earlier today, commenting on the Truck race:

"Old Kyle I guess showed up this last week, and really laid into the
fact that he was kind of pouting because he was getting his butt whipped
I guess. If he keeps running his mouth he might get it whipped again off
the track."


Kyle Busch, commenting on Elliot Sadler:

"It's over, it's done with, it's in the past. We agreed on some things.
It was a delightful conversation."


Well look who's running their mouth again, making vague threats, acting
childish, and look who has moved on already. Hey Harvick, how about you
whip his butt on the track, rather than just run your mouth off of it?
Last time I checked, Busch has more wins than you in every single major
NASCAR series, and he's leading the Cup points. You might want to be
focused on the upcoming Chase, rather than making smart a** remarks
about Kyle Busch to the media.


  181.   LordLowe posted:
  08.26.2011 - 3:49 pm
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At DSFF: Dale Jr has Already Crashed and burned he is NASCAR'S version
of Matt & Jeff Hardy


  182.   Talon64 posted:
  08.26.2011 - 5:46 pm
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"At DSFF: Dale Jr has Already Crashed and burned he is NASCAR'S version
of Matt & Jeff Hardy"

um what?

Jeff Hardy's a drug addict, Matt's a drunk and they're both incredible
douchebags who time after time blow their opportunties.

The best comparison is with Shane Hmiel and his time in NASCAR, except
he 100% turned everything around, actually thanked NASCAR for expelling
him for life since it probably saved his life, and was on his way to an
Indycar ride before his tragic accident.


  183.   LordLowe posted:
  08.26.2011 - 6:27 pm
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At Talon 64: I might have gone a little overboard with that compassion
but I just had to make a reference to those two it was just too good not
to pass up.


  184.   LordLowe posted:
  08.26.2011 - 8:20 pm
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I meant Comparison a little typo there


  185.   Anonymous posted:
  08.27.2011 - 3:52 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Well look who's running their mouth again, making vague threats, acting
childish, and look who has moved on already. Hey Harvick, how about you
whip his butt on the track, rather than just run your mouth off of it?
Last time I checked, Busch has more wins than you in every single major
NASCAR series, and he's leading the Cup points. You might want to be
focused on the upcoming Chase, rather than making smart a** remarks
about Kyle Busch to the media."

What's really hilarious about Harvick saying that is just 2 days later
Busch has already topped Harvick's accomplishment for the week by
winning the Nationwide race. Now granted Harvick wasn't in the
Nationwide race, but his cars were, and Kyle Busch beat them on his way
to his 50th win.

So effectively, Busch has managed to bury the Sadler incident by talking
to Sadler outside of the track, telling the media it's over and they've
moved on thereby squashing any follow-up article, and then winning a
record setting race to push all of the media coverage about him back
onto the positive side, going into his best track and favorite race of
the year.

What's Harvick going to do for an encore, call out Busch in the driver
intro's like Keselowski last year, then DNF'ing in the actual race while
Kyle Busch goes onto win? Or maybe he could learn to shut his mouth when
it comes to trying to talk s*** about drivers that win a lot more races
than he does.

The only way Harvick can get back on top of this to display more of his
signature smugness would be by winning Bristol saturday night. Which
honestly isn't out of the realm of possibility, but at this point I
think you gotta like Busch's chances a heck of a lot more.



  186.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.27.2011 - 10:15 am
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KBM18, first off, I completely agree that Harvick is a mouth and nothing
else (although he is capable of much more, which makes it even worse for
him). But K-Y has been saying mature things in the media conferences for
the whole year, but in the Truck race, without Joe, JD, and his sponsors
there to coach him on his walk from his Truck to his hauler, he showed
that he is still very much thinking of Harvick. It is stupid because K-Y
is WAY better than Kevin, but in that Truck interview, we got a look
into the mind of the true K-Y, and it is the same Old K-Y.


  187.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.27.2011 - 10:20 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"At DSFF: Dale Jr has Already Crashed and burned he is NASCAR'S version
of Matt & Jeff Hardy"

You'll have to fill me in, what exactly happened to those two? I haven't
watching wrestling in almost 10 years with the exception of a few of my
buddy's WrestleMania parties. I watched it as a kid in the early 90s
(loving the Ultimate Warrior as you have kidded me about many times
lol), quit for a while, then watched again during the Monday Night Wars
and the Stone Cold era. Once he had to quit (and Vince bought WCW), I
haven't watched since.


  188.   LordLowe posted:
  08.27.2011 - 1:30 pm
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Well DSFF: There's not much that can be said you and a lot of people
have said wrestling has gone very much downhill since the Monday night
wars ended. About the Hardy's Talon 64 said it best when he called both
guys drug addicts, drunks, and douchbags who time after time blow every
opportunity they get. Wrestling had its own version of the day it
happened in late June 2007 involving Chris Benoit if you don't know what
happened I can fill you in on what transpired. BTW don't you wish Stone
cold would come down and take care of Kyle Busch, Kevin Harvick, and
Carl Edwards.


  189.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  08.27.2011 - 11:26 pm
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I remember the Benoit deal well. Heard if on the news and was stunned.
So sad for his son and wife.


  190.   00andJoe posted:
  08.29.2011 - 8:09 pm
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Owners standings by best finishing car:

1. Gibbs, 942
2. Roush, 926
-. Hendrick, 926
4. Childress, 887
5. Penske, 845
6. Stewart-Haas, 799
7. Petty, 749
8. Red Bull, 710
9. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 699
10. Waltrip, 677
11. Furniture Row, 526
12. JTG-Daughtery, 499
13. Front Row, 430
14. Phoenix, 409
15. Baldwin, 329
16. Germain, 323
17. Stoddard, 319
18. TRG, 303
19. Robby Gordon, 268
20. Wood Brothers, 238
21. Gunselman, 152
22. Whitney, 99
23. Parsons, 90
24. NEMCO, 86
25. Inception, 44
26. Rusty Wallace, 24
27. Falk, 20
28. Leavine, 14
29. K-Automotive, 9


  191.   the_man posted:
  09.06.2011 - 4:08 pm
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David Ragan on a 12th place finish: "I felt like we had a 10th-place car
and if it wouldn't have been for that last caution, I felt like we would
have finished 10th. There was a lot of crazy strategy on that last
restart; Drew made a good call to take two tires. We gained a few spots
but we just ran out of time. We chased the car all day long. I felt at
times we had a sixth or seventh-place car and at times a 15th-place car.
From the last two weeks, that was a good recovery, but not the win that
we wanted. It was a good points day for our UPS team and we'll go to
Bristol and keep pushing."


  192.   Robert Nelson posted:
  07.12.2012 - 11:54 pm
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F1 points
Kyle Busch 238
Carl Edwards 177
Jimmie Johnson 163

7th. Ryan Newman 108 (8th driver to get 100 points)
8th. Brad Keselowski 107 (7th driver to get 100 points)

Ryan Newman's 6th 5th place finish of 2011.


  193.   SK posted:
  07.01.2019 - 8:07 am
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Barring a comeback, this is the final career Cup start made by Todd Bodine.


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