|| *Comments on the 2011 Wonderful Pistachios 400:* View the most recent comment <#224> | Post a comment <#post> 1. 00andJoe posted: 09.09.2011 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) T.J. Bell: the second coming of Randy MacDonald. 2. Mr X posted: 09.09.2011 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This comment I left as anonymous represents how I feel about Richmond, I'm pretty positive I can already pick the winner of this race from JGR, I really think the races at this track should be run on sunday afternoon as opposed to saturday night, and here's why, "I think this track could actually benifit from racing in the daytime, 6 of the last 7 races here, have been absolutely dominated and/or won by Kyle Busch or Denny Hamlin, and the races haven't been as exciting, at least from a tv standpoint. The track at night is just too much of a JGR playground for me to really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers. Last 7 Richmond Races: May 2008: Run at night, Denny Hamlin leads 381 of first 382 laps, flat tire takes him out, only 4 lead changes, Clint Bowyer wins. Sept 2008: Run on sunday because of rain, no driver leads more the 104 of 400 laps, no clear favourite, 22 lead changes, Jimmie Johnson wins. May 2009: Run at night, Busch and Hamlin combine to lead over half of race, 21 lead changes, Kyle Busch wins. Sept 2009: Run at night, Denny Hamlin leads 299 laps, only 4 drivers led a lap, only 2 led more then 5 laps, Hamlin & Busch finish in top 5, 12 lead changes, Denny Hamlin wins. May 2010: Run at night, KB leads over half the race, general lack of excitement, 12 lead changes, Kyle Busch wins. Sept 2010: Run at night, Denny leads 251 laps, Hamlin, Busch, Logano, finish 1st, 2nd, & 4th, only 14 lead changes, 346 laps led across Hamlin & Edwards, Denny Hamlin wins. Apr 2011: Run at night, Kyle leads 235 laps, Denny leads 38, logano gets wrecked, still finishes 11th, only gordon could keep up with JGR duo, only 14 lead changes, Busch wins, Hamlin 2nd. Despite how cool night racing is, I think Richmond could be better in the day, and with a softer tire, I'm also tired of the JGR dominence, I would like to have a race at richmond where I cant pick the winner out of a single organization." The spring race of 2007 was also run in the daytime, 24 lead changes, nobody lead over 114 laps, lots of drivers seemed to have a shot to win. JJ won, but in 2007 he won everything. The fall race of 2007 was at night, and featured only 15 lead changes, Jeff Gordon lead half the race, like the spring, JJ won the race. However it was just overall less competitive then the spring race. The trends just seem to point out that daytime races are more exciting then night racing. Just my opinion. 3. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.09.2011 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great lap by Reutimann, here's to hoping he can score a good finish tomorrow night. Seeing as he drives for MWR, I think a top 10 will be a great accomplishment. As long as Swervin Stremme doesn't take him out again. I'm REALLY hoping Jamie Mac can begin turning around his season. Other than Burton, he has to be the biggest disappointment so far. After his good season last year, I was hoping he would build forward on that and better his career even more. I'm still holding out hope that he can maybe grab a win before the year ends. Not too bad qualifying results for Penske. They qualified 11th and 19th, respectively. That's good enough to gain to get a good finish on. 4. 18fan posted: 09.09.2011 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the race that is supposed to set the field for the chase I like that the pole sitter is 28th in points and the outside pole sitter is 25th in points. There really isn't much excitement in this "race to the chase". Brad knocking out Tony or Jr is the only real interest and that is an unlikely scenario. 5. Anonymous posted: 09.10.2011 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "This comment I left as anonymous represents how I feel about Richmond, I'm pretty positive I can already pick the winner of this race from JGR, I really think the races at this track should be run on sunday afternoon as opposed to saturday night, and here's why," Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. You want to change a race that's been run at night for 20 years just because one team that you don't like has been winning the races there lately? Suck it up and stop being a baby. This is still a driver's track, and maybe the other teams should figure out how to get up to speed, rather than NASCAR changing around the schedule to accommodate their failures. The loop data proves that there is plenty of passing, but it has been behind Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch because they are just good at this track. I repeat, this is a driver's track, one particular team can't jump out to a huge advantage with the car, because it will always be more about the driver. If you haven't noticed, Hamlin and Busch are also two of the best at Martinsville and Bristol respectively. Because they are great short track drivers. So your whole idea of switching this around to a day race just because you don't like the winners is just sad to me. And I guarantee, *absolutely* guarantee you wouldn't be saying this if drivers you liked were winning the races there. That's where your argument would fall apart. My suggestion: grow up. 6. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch had top 5 finishes in his first 5 races at Richmond with Hendrick, including two races he very easily could have won. 7. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If it were run during the day it could be more of a drivers track, and if it were up to me the only night races would be the July race in Daytona and the Bristol night race. Day racing is better regardless of where you go. More slipping and sliding. It's pretty obvious that the car does have something to do with it because, at least at Martinsville and Bristol other cars can keep up, not to mention the Half-mile paper clip, despite being only flat a single groove track, has put on much better races of late, in the last 4 races at Martinsville, 100 lead changes, last 4 at Richmond 52, the loop data on average supports more passing at Martinsville then Richmond, and more passing at Richmond during the day then at night, the "Action Track could be better then it is if it were run on sunday afternoon. The sunday races at Richmond are 2 for 2 in producing good competition and excitement, meanwhile the night racing isn't as good as it has been. If NASCAR focused more attention on making sure that every race was run under the most competitive conditions possible instead of becoming an equal oppertunity series, with charity rules packages where anyone can win anything at anytime, we would have a much better racing series. 8. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like day racing a lot more than night racing and when you put the combination of a warm day race with soft tires and an "old surface"(which now basically means not repaved in the last 5 years) that usually means a really good race. 9. Anonymous posted: 09.10.2011 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "If NASCAR focused more attention on making sure that every race was run under the most competitive conditions possible instead of becoming an equal oppertunity series, with charity rules packages where anyone can win anything at anytime, we would have a much better racing series." Am I the only one who finds this statement hilariously ironic, given that this is the same guy complaining about the Gibbs cars having an advantage? It's like you contradict yourself within your own sentence. Thanks, I needed a good laugh. 10. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.10.2011 - 6:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. You want to change a race that's been run at night for 20 years just because one team that you don't like has been winning the races there lately? Suck it up and stop being a baby. This is still a driver's track, and maybe the other teams should figure out how to get up to speed, rather than NASCAR changing around the schedule to accommodate their failures. The loop data proves that there is plenty of passing, but it has been behind Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch because they are just good at this track. I repeat, this is a driver's track, one particular team can't jump out to a huge advantage with the car, because it will always be more about the driver. If you haven't noticed, Hamlin and Busch are also two of the best at Martinsville and Bristol respectively. Because they are great short track drivers. So your whole idea of switching this around to a day race just because you don't like the winners is just sad to me. And I guarantee, *absolutely* guarantee you wouldn't be saying this if drivers you liked were winning the races there. That's where your argument would fall apart. My suggestion: grow up." If you can't make a pigheaded comment like that without typing in your username, then don't do it; you probably don't mean it and are looking for a fight. I understand people's points. Look over the years, and you will find that the night races really are less competitive and are usually decided by bump-and-run on a restart cause the leader is otherwise 8 seconds ahead, or in the pits because the better car can't pass (see Richmond Spring 2006 and Fall 2007). To make such comment's anonymously means you know what you are saying is a jackwagon move and you don't the other, braver people to crucify your comments for the next 3 weeks. 11. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The day races at Richmond have seen the groove widen out within one groove of the wall. The 08 Richmond race was one of the best races COT races. And he wasn't complaining about JGRs dominance, he was just accurately pointing out that, with limited track changes that go along with a night race, if one team finds something, which JGR has at this track, they are basically unbeatable. He used fact based analysis to prove day racing is better, and showed that we pretty much tell who will win this one. I don't see why it is so controversial. Although I am pretty sure a JGR car will win this one, did you guys see the 24 and 48 in practice? I think the cha$e will be a repeat of 2007. With an added twist. In '07 they were in the same shop. Now they are in different shops. Gordon has Mark as a teammate to bounce info and ideas off of. JJ has June. I think that disparity in shopmates will make up for the experience the 48 has as a group. JJ is still my pick, but it should be close. I think, as one hell of a mindgame, in the remaining races where Jeff has DuPont as his primary sponsor, he should show up unannounced in the old rainbow paint scheme. 12. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seeing the rainbow paint scheme for Jeff would be so cool to see. 13. Cooper posted: 09.10.2011 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If they busted out the rainbow paint scheme....My God. I'd be scared shitless. Game Over. That'd be hilarious and that would be some great marketing. Never in a million years though. 14. Anonymous posted: 09.10.2011 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "He used fact based analysis to prove day racing is better, and showed that we pretty much tell who will win this one. I don't see why it is so controversial." Oh sure, he tried to make some points. But you guys are acting like this is suddenly a one groove track where the cars run single file and you can't pass. And that's just disingenuous. The part I don't care for, and which no one else seems to notice, is when he said this: "The track at night is just too much of a JGR playground for me to really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers." I think that sums up everything I need to know about his argument. He wouldn't have felt the need to come up with any of this, if it weren't for the JGR cars. If this was just a normal race, nothing. I highly doubt he's been saying for 20 years, ever since they switched this to a night race, "NASCAR should have never made this a night race. Boooooooooo! The racing stinks at night! Booooooooo!". Nope, this is a recent complaint, brought on by JGR domination. And that's why he's a tool, and you're a tool too if you all of a sudden think this race should be a day race. "Competitive balance" my a$$. If you truly cared about competitive balance, you'd need to switch around 75% of the races on the schedule to different tracks, and run almost all of them at different times of day. And if you really want that, watch a different series. I hope a JGR car doesn't win tonight, just to show you all how ridiculous this bulls*** argument really is. 15. Baker posted: 09.10.2011 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually pulling for Jeff Gordon to win this race because that would give him 9 points up on JJ to start the chase and he'll need it. Kyle Busch would obviously be up 12, but I don't see him running smooth enough to win the title and I'm pulling for anyone but JJ at this point. 16. Kinetic posted: 09.10.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The track at night is just too much of a JGR playground for me to really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers." Your argument loses all credibility with this comment. The JGR drivers would perform just fine if it was a day race. 17. 00andJoe posted: 09.10.2011 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since I haven't seen it mentioned in the race discussions yet: congratulations Andy Lally, 2011 Sprint Cup Series Rookie-of-the-Year. (Both Keselowski and Bell can no longer meet the minumum-number-of-races requirement.) 18. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Huh-what do you know. Junior IS in an early wreck. 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is what you call a clusterf***. For perhaps the first time ever, it looks like TV is assigning unfair blame to June. Looks like he was shoved into the wreck, plus Bowyer tried to pull back into traffic from a dead standstill. 20. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind. ESPN makes up for it by assigning absolutely zero blame to June for dumping Ambrose. 21. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Half of the laps have been under caution so far. I don't know what Jaime was thinking on the restart when Jimmie passed him on the outside because Jaime took the lead from Reutimann on the first lap. 22. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a crash fest so far. 23. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hah! Brian Vickers just got parked. 24. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about Brian Vickers' payback? Not surprising that he got parked for that though. 25. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You cant deny that the fall race in '08 and the spring race in '07 were absolutely fantastic, up there with being the best races of the '07 and '08 seasons because they werent dominated by any driver, the races were extremely competitive, far more then any recent night races. I left that first comment about a month ago on the Richmond International Speedway page. I probably shouldn't have said it the way I did. I want the JGR drivers to be competitive and they would be in a day race, but the recent races have been Kyle & Denny swapping the lead all night as they lap the field with an occasional apperance by Jeff Gordon. There is no other track that is so dominated by a team as bad as the last 7 night races at Richmond, they've 1648 laps of 2810 in the night races, and won 5 of the 7, not to mention if it weren't for a flat tire in April 2008 Denny likely would've lead 399 of 400, won the 6th race of 7, and the only 2 lead changes would've happened under caution. The JGR dominance has pointed this out, and I don't particularly like them, but I legitimately believe that Richmond would produce more competitive, exicting racing on sunday afternoon, as would almost all racetracks. They're racing with their heads up their asses tonight. DSFF, June took some blame himself at least. 26. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice to see Richmond covering for Bristol by giving us our night of chaos. 27. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ESPN starts telling us how great Bowyer is when really it's all the damage he has. Brad Daughtery also told us how Harvick is pulling away from Kenseth when Kenseth's on older tires and tires mean something tonight for once. 28. Rusty posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was just about to say DSFF, looks like Richmond is the new Bristol. 29. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr thinks he has a broken axle, thank god Andy's in the booth to point out that he obviouly hasn't. 30. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They let Vickers back on the track...? I'm confused. I thought when they parked you it meant you were done for the race. 31. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Yeah ESPN, it is SO unusual seeing Kenseth in a yellow car. I can't ever remember him being in a yellow car. 32. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Totally, he only drove a yellow car for 10 years. It was Vince Welch after all, and he is a total idiot. Junior pays back Kvapil and therefore doesn't get the free pass. 33. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Matt Kenseth's DeWalt Power Tools car wasn't yellow for the 10 seasons between 2000 and 2009. And is it really necessary for a single car spin to bring out a caution when he got going immediately and landed on the appron of the frontstretch, even if Dale Jr gets the welfare cheque? 9th caution, not even half way. Unbelievable. 34. LordLowe posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 48 IN THE WALL YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 35. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go Kurt, way to take out Jimmie. Montoya got significant damage too, sucks for him because he was having a great run. 36. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Got a feeling Kurt will regret that. 37. joey2448 posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Totally saw the 22/48 incident coming. Rivalry renewed... Great action thus far! 38. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fresh tires are a factor tonight. I like that. 39. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF did your crystal ball tell you that 40. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt still is on top because he basically killed Jimmie's night and Jimmie actually ruined his own race more than Kurt's when Jimmie retaliated. 41. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about Stephen Leicht? 42. Stephen Leicht Needs A Ride posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) See my name. 43. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well JJ, I don't know if you feel embarrassed, but you should. Don't know why Kurt was mad, he should have just laughed it off. GIVE STEVE LEIGHT A RIDE!!!!!!! 44. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2011 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AND TEACH ME HOW TO SPELL "LEICHT"!!!! 45. Mr X posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good job Goodyear, Bob Osbourne was about 2 laps from the dumbest call of the year award. I still wonder what happened to Paul Menard that a caution needed to come out, he spun, landed in the grass, and got going. NA$CAR wanted a finish I guess. 46. Anonymous posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I still wonder what happened to Paul Menard that a caution needed to come out, he spun, landed in the grass, and got going. NA$CAR wanted a finish I guess." Did you not see the #88 get the free pass with that? Sad, isn't it? 47. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Kevin was the best car tonight compared to his other 3 wins this year. Carl got lucky with that Paul Menard caution, but so did Kevin. Before that caution, I was thinking that it was going to be a classic Jeff Gordon win, but it wasn't meant to be. Kyle Busch had one of the best drives of the night but the Menard caution cost him a top 5 finish, plus just not having a good short run car. Solid comeback though for the 18 team, should be a positive going into the chase. 48. Ryan posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt is right, Jimmie has had the best stuff the last five years (actually eight years) and his crew chief is the biggest cheater in the sport. You equal good stuff with cheating and you get championships. Jimmie has been able to avoid big heated rivalry the last few years, and now that he has one it will be interesting to see how he does in the Chase. You could tell in his interview that he is bothered and he has never had to face that. Could it be that Harvick was testing all summer??? 49. 00andJoe posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #30: They parked Vickers for a number of laps (equivilant to sitting in your pit box with the NASCR official holding up his hand at you). Apparently Kurt Busch is Superman's Kryptonite... Way to go Steven Leicht! And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero. 50. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR was very quick with the caution flag a couple times. 51. Rusty posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Dale Jr. should be embarassed to back into the Chase the way he did, he hasn't had a good race in like 13 weeks. 52. . posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NASCAR was very quick with the caution flag a couple times." Except with the 2nd Landon Cassill spin. 53. 18fan posted: 09.10.2011 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Landon Cassill spin was why I said a couple times that they were quick with the yellow, not every time. 54. DaleJrFan20 posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #26 says it all. Though I don't think it'll end up like this in the long run. Pretty good race overall. Nice to see the whole Jimmie-Kurt rivalry heat up again. And now...Chase Time! 55. irony posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stephen Leicht passed Gordon, Stewart, Logano, and Kenseth at points during the race. Too bad he didn't get the finish because of a bad pit call. Bowyer looked bad tonight after his comments about Montoya last week (about a wreck that was his own fault). The 2nd contact with Reut was questionable. JJ hasn't been JJ lately. Don't think he is the Chase favorite. 56. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Random fact: This is only the second time Scott Speed has finished 43rd in his entire career. Both Tommy Baldwin cars had a solid night, not just Stephen Leicht. They have a decent short track program. Just got to keep working on everything else and soon TBR could reach victory lane, just like Furniture Row Racing did this season. Casey Mears picks up his best finish since joining the #13 team. 57. BON GORDON posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UGH!!!!! Flashbacks of 2010 for Jeff Gordon and his fans. He just wasnt good on restarts and he was on the outside as well. Harvick had the best car but Gordon was good on long runs. Had there not been a caution Mr. Gordon probably wouldve won. Oh well i guess. On to Chicagoland. 58. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boooooooo! This race should be run at day time! It's not exciting enough! It's not competitive enough! JGR cars always dominate! Sorry, just reminding those complaining earlier in the thread of how ridiculous and whiny their argument was. Or was this race not good enough for you? The true irony is that the same people that complain about the new Bristol being too much of a multi-lane track, were the same ones suggesting this mostly one-groove track with lots of bumping should be run at day because the tires would be better for competitive balance. But I guess you gotta complain about something, this is NASCAR after all! 59. Smokefan05 posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero." Agree 100%. 60. 00andJoe posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #18 sponsor: 9-11 Never Forget #42 sponsor: Target/Clorox #32 sponsor: H&B Railroad/Safe Skies Luggage Locks #87 sponsor: AM FM Energy/Pellet & Wood Stoves 61. bduddy posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Admin guy, are you going to keep posting the "non-Chase" standings like before? I guess you can't call them "Classic" anymore, but it would still be nice to know... 62. GDR posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) to 18fan, the only race Kevin won where he wasn't the best car at the end was Charlotte. Maybe Kyle was a little better at Martinsville, but Kevin drove from 20 something at one point to third prior to the last start and then passed the 42, 18, and 88 after that. At California he had the best car at the end, passing the 18 and 48 to win. But yes, it was nice this one wasn't a where did he come from. That gets old. 63. Patrick posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) a wild night. 64. Nick posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Gordon fan, I'm a bit peeved at Menard... lol... Indy and now Richmond were 2 potential wins... oh well.... at least he is beginning to run top 5 more consistently. 65. RLB posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow Harvick's teammate spin's out to bring out a very timely caution and cost Gordon(who worked his ass off to get the lead)and give Harvick the win. yaaaaaa! 66. Ryan posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero." Agree 100%. I disagree with the comment made about "NA$CAR" tonight, but you people are blind or naive if you don't think Nascar is about the money. They always have and they always will. 67. 18fan posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) GDR, I meant the first win where he was up there and a car to beat all night, since he led 202 laps tonight and 130 laps the first 25 laps. I watched that race in person at Fontana and he drove his ass of to win that one, and Martinsville he was the best car on the last two runs, but not the whole day. Charlotte was one of the luckiest wins I have ever seen. At least the ESPN guys don't go absolutely overboard about how Kevin is "The Closer" and "Mr. Where Did He Come From". That gets so old its not even funny. 68. 00andJoe posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #7 status: handling 69. SoxFan24 posted: 09.11.2011 - 1:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good god, JR was into everything and everybody during the race. Reminds me of the 2000 cup race in Martinsville when he hit everything AND the tow truck The last caution cost Gordon no doubt. He was pulling away from Harvick. The 29 had a better pit stop and thats what won them the race. Gordon was way better on long runs. Don't understand why Vickers was parked like he was and Johnson who blatantly hit Kurt Busch wasn't. Guess 5 time doesn't get parked eh? 70. Mr X posted: 09.11.2011 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was a much different race then I originally thought it would be, mostly because Goodyear brought a much softer tire then in previous Richmond races. Just a shame that NASCAR showed blatent favouritism, Landon Cassill had the exact same spin twice, and got a caution once, Dale Jr was the benificiary, Paul Menard's lazy spin in the grass got an unnecessary caution, again Dale Jr was the benificiary, we had 15 cautions, at least 2 or 3 weren't necessary, the ones that Dale Jr got the free pass during. They drove like an 8 year old in Grand Theft Auto tonight, its been a while since we've had a race where the longest green flag run was 71 laps. Thank god David Ragan didn't make the Chase, he wouldn't have contended but still he had no place being in it, or even having a shot at being in it. Kevin Harvick dominated a race!! He led 202 laps, the 2nd most amount of laps ever in his 18 wins, 252 at Phoenix in November 2006 is the most for a win. This is also the 3rd most laps he's ever led in an race 272 at Richmond in April 2006 is the most, he finished third. I also enjoyed it when ESPN said that Dale Jr did everything he had to do to make the Chase. He only crashed the car about 2 times, and then his team and unnecessary cautions did the rest. Good thing for him that Brad finished 12th. He should've been about 30th, 5-10 laps down. Its also going to be extremely disappointing if this website stops showing the good old Classic points standings, the only way the points system should've ever been. 71. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.11.2011 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's a rare sight nowadays to see Kevin Harvick dominate and win a race like this. He definitely deserved the win, but I was pulling SO hard for Gordon to stay in front of him until Paul Menard spun, bringing out the final caution. When the 29 beat the 24 off pit road... that's all she wrote. Brad has a great top 5 run going until he gets jumbled back in the running order, then he and Kenseth make contact in one of those racing deals coming off Turn 2. It seemed his race kind of went downward after that, although he made a nice recovery on the final restart, coming from 15th to finish 12th. I was hoping for McMurray and Reutimann to have good nights tonight, but the best either one of them could do was 14th (JMac). Reut finished a lap down in 26th. Let's see. Kurt spins Jimmie, then Jimmie comes back and drives in the corner TEN times as deep as anyone else just to wreck Kurt and ends up spinning himself too. I gotta say, I knew JJ would retaliate if given the chance but I would have forseen him being more calm about it. 72. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.11.2011 - 1:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes, give Stephen Leicht a shot! The guy has impressed me plenty of times despite not making very many starts on NASCAR's top stage. 73. dirtfan9628 posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Considering that Keselowski has scored the most points since Indy 7 races ago, and has the most wins during that stretch, I think it's safe to say that if he doesn't win the championship, it will be one of the biggest chokes in NASCAR history. You can even go back to Kansas, and see that for nearly half the season now, Keselowski has scored enough points to be a top-3 driver. That's how this works, right? If a driver has a good stretch of races and more wins than all but two of the other drivers, they are locks to win the title, and if they don't it's a choke? Hold on, I need to consult my, "DaleSrFanForever Guide to Chokes: How to Make A Driver You Don't Like Appear Worse Than They Actually Are". Ok, let's see..... yes it's here. Page 41, paragraph 7: "If a driver that you don't like gets on a hot streak, and especially if that hot streak coincides with multiple race wins just before the Chase, it is therefore acceptable to overstate that driver's potential, in which case you can say, 'I told you so!' if said driver wins championship, or, 'they are chokers! HAHA!' if said driver does not win championship. And because of this attitude, you will be correct either way, and can continue to lord your superior NASCAR knowledge and condescending attitude over other fans." Yep, looks like Keselowski is either going to win the whole thing, or choke, and choke hard. No in between now, with the way he's been running. I haven't run the exact numbers, but it's possible that he's scored more points than anyone since Kansas. Anyone want to try to confirm this? Either way, man, if he doesn't win the title it's going to be one colossal choke. He's got the best car right now, and he's super talented. It certainly wouldn't bother me if he won the title over Johnson, but if he doesn't I guarantee you I won't let it slide for years and years. 74. URRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did you not see the #88 get the free pass with that? Sad, isn't it?" YES THE CAUTION WAS THROWN FOR JR URRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR get a clue. 75. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does NASCAR still give out a $1 Million payout to the highest finishing driver outside the Chase? Despite being quiet & under the radar all season, AJ Almendinger has a good chance to take that, and finish off the best season of his career. 76. murb posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Kevin and the 29 team. I think this is going to be a really interesting Chase. You've got guys like Gordon and Keselowski who have tons of momentum going in. You've got Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch's feud reignited. And then of course you have guys like Jr, Stewart, and Hamlin, who I think will be interesting to watch in this thing. Those three have had to worry about just making it in, instead of just gunning for wins like all the others, so maybe they will start showing their stuff. And the 29 seems to have their speed back, so they also might be a threat. So there's lots of great story lines going into this deal. Hell of a run by Steven Leicht in the 36 car. I think it would be cool to see him be kind of like this generation's Mark Martin. Mark came back to Nascar in the late '80s after struggling earlier in his career, and of course we all know how the rest of his career has been. So it would be cool to Steven come back and land a good ride and have success after being away for a couple years. I think Steven has always had talent. He ran really well in the Busch Series for a declining Robert Yates team, and also had some good runs for Richard Childress in that series. It seems like Tommy Baldwin is running more and more races with two cars, so hopefully they can get some more funding and have Blaney and Leicht full time in 2012. 77. JP88 posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn what a crazy race, I thought for sure something would hapen to Jr. and after 3 laps I was right...thankfully his radiator didn't go or else I would of chucked the remote. And boy Kasey Kahne can not catch a break, I wonder if he could leave early and maybe run a 5th hendrick car for the last 5 races or something. Awesome runs by Leicht, Blaney and Mears. Stephen was in the top-10 for a little while and I'm not sure what happened on that restart 78. RLB posted: 09.11.2011 - 2:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope all these phony excuses to throw a caution and steal wins from Gordon comes back to give him a .500 win% in the chase,at least. 79. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2011 - 3:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The Chase starts with the most bizarre press conference ever By Jay Busbee The Chase starts with the most bizarre press conference everMost of the time, press conferences are insanely dull affairs, with routine questions and routine answers and very little in the way of life and liveliness. Most of the time. As the clock ticked past midnight, NASCAR's twelve Chase drivers entered Richmond's media center in packs, each group upping the ante on the next. There was tension, drama, humor, the threat of violence and enough storylines to kick the Chase into orbit. Want to know how weird this press conference was? The funniest guy in the room was Matt Kenseth. And no, that's not sarcasm. Settle in, folks: - The event began with Brad Keselowski, Carl Edwards and Dale Earnhardt Jr. sharing a stage, all looking relieved at Richmond being over. Edwards was frustrated at losing the win, yes, but he had the only traditional driver response of the night. When Edwards was asked why he didn't pit late in the race, Keselowski chimed in, "Yeah, Carl. Why didn't you?" To which Edwards laughingly replied, "Screw you, Brad." - From there, Edwards and Keselowski wandered into a bizarre discussion about crayons and the little sharpeners in the back of the boxes. It's true. - When asked about what would have happened had he failed to make the Chase, a clearly happy Earnhardt replied, "Well, I'd have a lot less to do over the next 10 weeks. That's about all, I guess." - Then came Jeff Gordon and Denny Hamlin, who were straightforward and, in Hamlin's case, nearly exhausted with delirious relief. But Gordon did offer up a hint of a conspiracy theory: "To know with 20 laps to go you're driving away with the lead, I was feeling pretty good about that. I didn't want to see a caution. I thought it was interesting when I saw a Childress car sitting down this in the grass," Gordon said, referring to Paul Menard's late spin that let Childress teammate Kevin Harvick take the lead and, eventually, the win. - Harvick arrived next, and crew chief Gil Martin hinted at the kind of inspirational figure Harvick is behind closed doors: "He's always smiles at the race track," Martin said. "A Sunday-morning meeting, it'll snap you out of a lot of things. You can jump over Godzilla after you have a meeting with him." - Oh, but all of that was just a prelude to the main event. Kurt Busch entered the media center and immediately walked over to confront a reporter for whom he'd had harsh words earlier in the evening. Busch raised his voice to the reporter, and appeared on the verge of stepping to him, when the rest of the drivers arrived and assembled at the podium. Jimmie Johnson was the last to arrive, and very deliberately took a seat at the far end of the table from Busch. - So there they were, Kurt seething, Tony Stewart virtually daring the media to ask him a question after his rant on Friday, Johnson clearly restraining himself. In the middle of the pack, Kyle Busch and Ryan Newman wore bemused smiles, happy to see everything playing out around them. The tension in the room was at visible levels. - Matt Kenseth showed up just a bit late, and since the three-man table already had five drivers crowded around it, he simply walked up on the podium and sat on Johnson's knee for a moment. Then he stepped aside to take his questions last, which turned out to be a good thing. - Stewart, for his part, was restrained and answered his questions without added commentary. When AP reporter Jenna Fryer began a question to Johnson by noting that Kurt Busch had said he was "in [Johnson's] head," Busch stepped in to say, "I didn't say that tonight. Did not." Thing is, he did. It was broadcast live on ESPN, and the transcript showed the quote clearly. And then Busch crossed a line. When Fryer showed him the transcript, Busch took the transcript from her hands, ripped it in half, deposited it back on her desk, and stormed out of the room. It was a stunning lack of respect and professionalism on Busch's part. - So it fell to Matt Kenseth to take the tension out of the room, and he did so with the kind of dry wit that's become his trademark on Twitter. Landmark Newspapers' Dustin Long asked him about his results coming into the Chase (no finish higher than fifth), and replied, "I thought I was better than that." Long then held up the results notebook and asked if Kenseth wanted to rip it up; Kenseth just smiled at the idea. - After a few more questions, particularly one about Gordon's allegation of "teamwork" with that last caution and whether drivers discuss such matters, Kenseth laughed. "They all stay locked in their motor coaches. There's no talk ... Nah, that's not true, we all gather on the playground and have stroller races." The laughter was long and loud and relieved. And as Kenseth left, he smirked and said, "Thank you, guys. You're doing a fine job." And everyone let the sarcasm ride, a perfect ending to one of the most bizarre press conferences in recent NASCAR history." Someone tell me there is video of this entire thing on the internet somewhere! I like Kenseth more after reading this, and Kurt Busch less. 80. Bronco posted: 09.11.2011 - 3:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does NASCAR still give out a $1 Million payout to the highest finishing driver outside the Chase?" No, that only existed in the 10 man chase format from 2004-2006. Once they expanded it to twelve drivers, they even stopped recognizing 11th and 12th place. Dale Jr's finish wasn't pretty, but he deserved to make the chase after hanging on to that beaten up car all night long. Even with a beaten up car, he finished better than he ever did in the Lance NoClue era. Last year he was 6 laps down without any crash or mechanical damage. He also got three lucky dogs, and would have gotten a fourth had he not spun Travis Kvapil. That has to be close to some kind of record. Scary thought - if had Brad had finished in the top 10 and bumped out Stewart or Jr, then Ragan would have made the chase from a 19th place points position. Harvick finally dominates a race rather than just stealing it at the end. The first truly "dominant" win for him since Phoenix 2006. David Reutimann's first pole since Dover in May 2009. 81. Hal posted: 09.11.2011 - 3:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harvick finally dominates a race rather than just stealing it at the end. The first truly "dominant" win for him since Phoenix 2006." And yet, there is no mention of his ridiculously inappropriate nickname, "The Closer", despite this being his first win in a long time that is actually fitting. I guess people still don't understand what "closing" means. He still wasn't the best car at the end though. Edwards would have passed him with a few more laps, and Gordon probably had the best car. Harvick just benefited from that final caution more than most. 82. Josh C posted: 09.11.2011 - 3:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im finally glad that Kurt put Johnson's ass into the fence. I've been waiting for it for a long time and now finally it happened. Funnier yet, JJ wrecking himself trying for revenge and screws his car up ever more hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah...oh man my gut hurts from laughter. Whats even funnier still is Kurt didn't lose a single spot on the track hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...oh man I might pop an artery. I gotsta breath for a sec here. What would have put the topping on the cake is if Kurt won and dedicated the race to the 48 team and all the employees of Blowes...er sorry Lowes! 83. Matt G posted: 09.11.2011 - 4:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since it has not been mentioned so far I think it needs to be brought up. Bob Osborne cost Carl Edwards this race and could have completely ruined that team's night. The decision not to pit with 87 laps to go BOGGLED MY MIND!!! Had Paul Menard not spun with 15 laps left, Edwards would have been forced to pit, lost a lap, and finished somewhere in the neighborhood of 25th despite having the best car for the last 75% of the evening. WHAT A DISGRACE!!! When it comes to pit strategy, there are few, if any Crew Chiefs as clueless as Bob Osborne. If he pulls a stunt like that in the Chase and the caution doesn't come out, Carl can kiss the Championship goodbye. 84. Mike posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @Mr. X: Yes, it's been such a long time since the longest green-flag run in a race was 71 laps. In fact, the last time was ... four days ago. 85. 00andJoe posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #24 sponsor: Drive to End Hunger/Chase AARP Visa 86. irony posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Record tying 15 cautions. 87. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick dominated Michigan and Daytona last year. See, this is why I say,"How will Jeff have this win stolen?". 88. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since all conspiracies are on the table, could Menard have intentionally spun, knowing his Chase chances were done, just to help Harvick who had lost his shot to win with Gordo running like he has nitrous? 89. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2011 - 8:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although JJ had it coming, I say that was not smart by Kurt. I think he needs to think about what Rusty did to Jeff at this very track in the Spring of '98. Remember, at that point, even though he had 4 wins, he was having a very uneven year. But after Rusty dumped him, he and his team woke up and went on a tear like never before. Seeing Kurt do that, and then taunt him afterwards, gives me a bad feeling. The last time the 48 team got taunted like that was by Mike Ford after Texas last year. That team still hasn't recovered. Yes JJ had it coming, but he is the type you should just leave alone. And I want to say some things about Kurt's equipment rant. First off, if it is all about equipment, why does your teammate, who finished 25th in points last year with a best finish of 10th, have 3 wins to your 1? Second, if HMS is so far ahead in equipment (they are), why wouldn't you try to get on with them? He has insulted them repeatedly, calling them pretty boys. Why burn that bridge? Third, you just publically insulted your organization. Penske Racing has to be beyond sick of it at this point. That oughta help your team unity going forward. Damn, JJ does have a golden horseshoe. Even when somebody finally stands up to him, it has to be one of the biggest dumbasses in the garage. 90. Dodge posted: 09.11.2011 - 8:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior fans, get ready to watch Jr. finish 12th in the Chase. In the best equipment in the sport. Jr. is a joke. Has been since half way in 2008. Just saying the truth. 91. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2011 - 8:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did you guys hear about Kurt in the press conference? Why is HE so upset? He dumped his rival. His rival made an embarrassing attempt to retaliate that tore his own car up and didn't even cost Kurt a spot, yet he is the one storming out and ripping up reporters notes? Yeesh. 92. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch had no sponsor for this race. He ran a blank American Flag paint scheme with no sponsor labels, not even the front quarter panel decals. He only had "9/11- We Remember" written on his rear bumper. NO M&M'S!!!!! 93. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry. It was "Never Forget" not the other. So "9/11 Never Forget" 94. potatosalad48 posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch proves his immaturity once again. I lost my respect for him a long time ago. 95. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Enough bashing Dale Jr. He might finish 12th in the chase but it is because Rick Hendrick won't give him good enough cars to compete in. Dale Jr. is a good enough driver to win races but for some reason Rick doesn't want him to. It isn't Dale Jr's falt he gets bad cars it's Hendrick's. 96. 18fan posted: 09.11.2011 - 10:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch is the only driver who has been in the top 10 in points for all 26 races. 97. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2011 - 10:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Something I meant to mention. This was an interesting weekend because, over two nights, we got to see the two sides of Kevin Harvick. In this race, we saw what he can do if his car is good and faces no adversity. He can be as good as almost anyone. Only the legend, Jeff Gordon, had something for him at the very end of a long run. But on Friday night, we saw his other side. He didn't like his car, and he made a bad situation much worse. Perhaps nobody in the cha$e whose last name isn't "Busch" is more reliant on their equipment. RCR has to give Harvick Top 5 cars every single week for him to have a shot. He needs to hope for a "Kurt Busch in '04 Miricle Run" to the title. Interesting contrast for the ending of this race to the one last week. Last week saw the two legends fight it out, the nine combined Cups and 130+ Cup wins slipping and sliding their way for a win. This race, we saw two "Best of the Rest" drivers fight it out over the last few laps. Two streaky drivers capable of lighting it up at times, but then going through long dry spells at other times. Two guys who are good, but not quite good enough to topple the juggernauts. A Cup championship or two may be in their future, but most of the time they are fighting for Best of the Rest. 98. Eric posted: 09.11.2011 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am a bit shocked how dominate Kevin's car was last night. I really don't think the rivalry between Kurt Busch and Jimmie Johnson is over. Brad not winning the chase shouldn't be one of the biggest chokes in Nascar history a first place unlike what dirtfan9628 says. You need a points lead before before considering it being a choke a first place. Brad never had a points lead in cup yet this year. The 2nd thing is a big choke in racing is when a driver loses the points lead after leading points by a huge margin or when the driver lead in points for most of the year. 99. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous #95 who doesn't have the guts to use his name, in that case, it is Rick Hendrick's fault that Jimmie has won five straight titles when Jimmie ain't a scab on Gordo or Martin's rears, and it is Hendrick's fault that his family all died in a horrific plane crash, and it is Hendrick's fault that Tim Richmond was a masher who dies from AIDS, and it is Rick's fault that his parent's died. Get real. No. Those things are CHANCE events controlled by someone a heck of lot more powerful than the President. Maybe it is Rick that is June's problem; then Steve Letarte should fix it. You need some to blame it on, look at Letarte. He cost Jeff the 07 title when Jeff drove like he could have won the title in Morgan Shepherd's car. Now, he is a pain in June's rear. It isn't ALWAYS owner, even if it usually is. You have analyze the likelihood. If a driver is just a tick better, then there is a pit crew issue. If a driver is a chunk better, it is the crew chief. If a driver is light year's away, it is either the driver or owner. 100. RaceFanX posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch's blank American flag paint job in this race was an almost exact replica of the well-received and remembered American flag scheme Ken Schrader ran on the then #36 M&M's Pontiac at Dover in the first post-9/11 Cup race back in 2001. 101. Bronco posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harvick dominated Michigan and Daytona last year." He didn't lead the most laps at Michigan last year, and at Daytona he did lead the most laps, but it wasn't even 25% of the race, plus he needed a lucky dog at one point. "Junior fans, get ready to watch Jr. finish 12th in the Chase. In the best equipment in the sport. Jr. is a joke. Has been since half way in 2008. Just saying the truth." After you clearly demonstrated your lack of NASCAR knowledge following the Darlington race, saying that Harvick should have put his car in "Park", its probably best that people take whatever you have to say with a grain of salt. I think Dale Jr will have a solid chase run, not championship material but will probably be 6th-9th at the end of it. He scored top 10s at Kansas, Charlotte, Talladega, Martinsville, Texas, Phoenix earlier this year and didn't finish too badly at Dover and New Hampshire so I think he'll be fine. 102. 18fan posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Harvick started charging back up through the field and took the lead, and then got out of the pits ahead of Gordon and held on, I couldn't help but think about how absolutely insane the FOX crew would have gone about Harvick being "The Closer". But I do wonder if this race is the exception or the norm for Harvick and the 29 team based on their performance since he came off probation, which is when that team began to go straight down. 103. GDR posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since they won Charlotte I think they've been doing nothing but testing stuff and trying to do unorthodox things to win races that they usually don't do. The first sign that they were back on track was last week at Atlanta, where they had better than a 7th-place car, but that's where they wound up, partially because part of the splitter on the left front broke off. I don't know if he can win the Chase because I don't think 1.5 milers are the teams strong point, but if he can win Talladega, find another win in there and do well enough on the 1.5 milers, he'll be in the hunt. It's all going to come down to wins, they ran great in the Chase last year, but not winning a race during it cost them. 104. 18fan posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick also has to keep up what he did this weekend and qualify better. I think that more than anything cost him the championship because he spent all his time coming through the field while Jimmie and Denny were leading laps. Kevin only led 5 of the 10 races and he never led the most laps. Denny also only 5 races and led the most laps once, but Kevin scored more points in the Chase than Denny did. Jimmie led 6 races and the most laps once. 105. Eric posted: 09.11.2011 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my analysis on the 12 drivers in the chase with me having Jeff Gordon winning it: Kevin Harvick - I really don't like this team going into the chase despite his win. The 29 team struggled most of the summer and didn't get a top 5 before last night in 2 months. Kevin is at a disadvantage of not having a teammate in the chase and RCR being in a down year for the most part. This different than Jeff Gordon because 2 of his 3 teammates are no help for him for feedback.Jeff Burton and Clint Bowyer are middle of having down years this year. Father might be catching up to Jeff Burton and Clint is distracted by not having a contract next year with RCR yet. Paul Menard being your best teammate right now isn't a good sign. Kevin also has a question of focus because KHI still exists this year. The other issue is Kevin usually doesn't lead a lot of laps in a race and is conservative despite his wins. Kyle Busch - I don't like his chances going into the chase. JGR basically is getting a rid of at least a part of his engine shop after this season and brings questions on how it would effect the 18 and 11 team for the chase. Kyle also is known for disappointing chase results. What is going to help Kyle is the fact he isn't supposed to run all the Nationwide and truck races that happen during the chase. Jeff Gordon - This team is the favorite. The 24 is hot going into the chase. While Mark Martin isn't the chase, Jeff has a better teammate to get info from Jimmie Johnson does for feedback. Mark Martin also is more competitive than Kevin Harvick's teammate Jeff Burton is this year. Matt Kenseth - I really question Roush as whole going into the chase. Roush peaked early in the year. Matt has being steady this year, but the question with Roush always being at one mile tracks or shorter for most of the 21st century. Matt also hasn't had a top 10 at Talladega since 2006 fall race. Carl Edwards - It is hard to get a reading on this team. He was better earlier in the season despite having a nice rebound for the last 3 cup races going into the chase. Roush doesn't a great 1 or mile less track program for the most part outside of Dover despite Carl's win at Phoenix last year. That issue with Roush is either on the organization or the drivers Roush has. Carl racing in the Nationwide series full-time isn't going to help him. Talladega is a question for Carl despite having a top 10 there in the spring. That was Carl's first top 10 at Talladega since the 2006 fall race. The other issue is Brad is in the chase and you have to wonder if that could effect Carl mentally. Jimmie Johnson - He is still one of the favorites, but isn't the Hendrick driver to beat in the chase. The 48 is weaker than in years past. Jimmie also has the issue of Kurt Busch. Kurt could dump him during the chase. Jimmie also has the issue of Dale Jr. not being the ideal driver for getting notes from. Ryan Newman - Nice year out of him, but isn't the chase favorite. He has the problem of Stewart-Haas racing getting equipment from Hendrick. Hendrick doesn't give out their best stuff during chase time. Newman also is streaky at times this year besides Talladega being an issue for him since the spring 2009 race. Kurt Busch - Could finish in the top in 5 point, but not a championship. His teammate is great for sharing notes from and the organization has a great turnaround since what happened at Richmond. Kurt has the issue of Jimmie Johnson. Kurt is streaky at times this year. Tony Stewart - Can't win the chase. His team has been up and down all year. Being a cup owner is hurting him as a driver. He has the same equipment issue as Ryan Newman. Denny Hamlin - Can't win the chase. 11 team isn't the same as last year. Engine department could be a distraction for JGR during the chase. Brad Keselowski - Will not win the chase. Brad is now back to racing Nationwide full time and that is an issue with him. Brad raced better when he wasn't racing in the Nationwide series. Brad also the question of can his team continue their upswing after struggling for most of the first half of the year. Dale Jr - him winning the chase is like winning the lottery due to driver and crew chief. Finishing top 5 in points is like a win for this team. The driver hasn't been good for the most part after the 1st Pocono race. Steve Letarte is a questionable crew chief for making the right calls and that dates back to calling the shots for Jeff Gordon. 106. 00andJoe posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The #9 sponsor should be Stanley/DeWalt Tools as usual. :) (Sorry I didn't notice this sooner.) 107. Eric posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When I mentioned Harvick being conservative, I meant how he races on the track in terms of racing style like his teammate Jeff Burton. 108. 00andJoe posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner standings by best finishing team car: 1. Hendrick, 1059 2. Gibbs, 1054 3. Roush, 1048 4. Childress, 1001 5. Penske, 971 6. Stewart-Haas, 914 7. Petty, 850 8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 799 9. Red Bull, 787 10. Michael Waltrip, 769 11. Furniture Row, 589 12. JTG-Daughtery, 539 13. Front Row, 487 14. Phoenix, 466 15. Germain, 387 16. Baldwin, 381 17. Stoddard, 356 18. TRG, 349 19. Robby Gordon, 281 20. Wood Brothers, 238 21. Gunselman, 152 22. Whitney, 114 23. Parsons, 103 24. NEMCO, 97 25. Inception, 60 26. Leavine, 47 27. Rusty Wallace, 24 28. Falk, 20 29. K-Automotive, 9 109. NBC posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seeds for the chase: 1. Ky. Busch 2. Harvick 3. Gordon 4. Kenseth 5. Edwards 6. Johnson 7. Ku. Busch 8. Newman 9. Stewart 10. Earnhardt Jr. 11. Keselowksi 12. Hamlin 110. 1995z71 posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a Great race, haven't seen a slugfest like this in a long long time! Even Bristol is getting boring. Great run for Stephen Leicht, a bad call for staying out before a long green flag run ruined any chance of him getting a top 10. 111. Vickers83fan posted: 09.11.2011 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I Love Kurt Busch's Interview after the race. Amen Brother 112. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.11.2011 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And yet, there is no mention of his ridiculously inappropriate nickname, "The Closer", despite this being his first win in a long time that is actually fitting. I guess people still don't understand what "closing" means." That is because the FOX crew are the ones who came up with that stupid nickname. Last night, he closed the deal pretty well but I don't consider someone who puts down his team when the cars are off rather than raising himself to another level (see Johnson, Jimmie and Gordon, Jeff) to be any kind of closer in general. Kurt Busch's complaining is getting REALLY annoying. Guess whose decision it was to sign with Penske in the first place?! KURT'S! He went from what was the second best team at the time to about the fifth best, what did he think would happen? Even Rusty was having trouble winning in his final years. Only now have they reached the point they used to be in terms of being competitive. I don't in any way think Brad will win the championship, but he could very well go for a top 5 points finish if he can keep up with the great finishes he's had lately in the cha$e. I'd much rather see them maintain speed overall so they can have a year like this next year as well. 113. Dodge posted: 09.11.2011 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, you don't know me so don't say I know nothing about NASCAR. I was misinformed and thought that they had park. Sorry I am not like you and PERFECT, moron. As for the fools that say it is Hendrick screwing Jr. by not giving him cars that are capable of winning. Hendrick moved the 88 into the 48 shop so that they can try to figure out what is up. Well, lets see, 3 different crew chiefs, new crew members AND the cars that Gordon was racing last year and is getting absolutely little out of plus whatever new cars they have built this year. 114. Dodge posted: 09.11.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't even get to watch the post race interviews. My local ABC affiliate once the checkered flag waved, they went right to the news. I was a little harsh on you Bronco, calling you a moron. I don't know you so it isn't right for me to say something like that. I like discussing the races but I haven't been for this reason. I state MY OPINION, and some attack me for my view. We aren't all going to like what we all post. Plus, that is what makes us individuals. We all don't think alike. 115. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2011 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dodge, eloquently put. 116. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2011 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch definitely gets the "Kevin Harvick Memorial Standing Up To The Bully And Somehow Come Off As Less Mature Due To Their Behavior Afterwards" award. A reported asked JJ about Kurt's comments that he made ON NATIONAL TV, then Kurt said he never said that. After it was said on national TV, and it was being read from a transcript given out by DODGE MOTORSPORTS!!! When the transcript was brought up, Kurt walked down and ripped it in half. What the hell? What a tool! I had been having trouble deciding whether Harvick or Kyle would get the Tool Of The Year title, but it looks like Kurt is blowing them off the map. I mean seriously, did he think that would make it go away? What an idiot. That is simply being a jerk. It is one thing to be a jackass towards your fellow millionaire competitors, but to act like that towards some media person? What a d**k! Kurt is quite simply a bad person. Seriously, the one argument against JJ's success is the fact that all of his competition are morons. Of his talented contemporaries, most of them are their own worst enemies (both Busches, Harvick, Smoke). "Guess whose decision it was to sign with Penske in the first place?! KURT'S!" Exactly. Then he insults them all over the place, on the radio and publically. 117. Matthew Sullivan posted: 09.11.2011 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone complaining about Junior last night needs to get a clue. How many incidents has Junior caused this year? Hell, how many has he caused throughout his entire career? How many incidents has he been a victim of this year? The guy is one of the cleanest, most respectful drivers out there. More than most anyone else out there, he deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to incidents on track. As far as the 88 team "backing" into the Chase, they earned the right to do so by running strong the first part of the season I think Junior would be the first to tell you that he would have preferred to run much better these past several races, but it is what it is. Let's remember that of all the tracks that the series has run at that are in the Chase, the 88 scored the most combined points. Are they championship material? Probably not, but I think that they can win a race or two and surprise some people these final 10 races. 118. Ryan posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He (Harvick) didn't lead the most laps at Michigan last year, and at Daytona he did lead the most laps, but it wasn't even 25% of the race, plus he needed a lucky dog at one point." He was easily the best car the last half of the Michigan race. "Kevin is at a disadvantage of not having a teammate in the chase and RCR being in a down year for the most part." I think he could have Menard and Burton run test set ups for him in practice. He actually might be at a good advantage because of this. The 24 and 48 are no longer "buddies" like they used to be. Edwards and Kenseth may help each other. They seem to have a friendly competition. "I had been having trouble deciding whether Harvick or Kyle would get the Tool Of The Year title, but it looks like Kurt is blowing them off the map." I think Kurt and Johnson are both tools. Kurt was once voted most hated athlete just behind Barry Bonds and Terrell Owens in 2005, until his brother came around. Johnson is a me guy. After he said all that bogus stuff after Pocono and saying that Kurt actually started it with him when you could see from the replay that Johnson came down on him. Johnson is a tool as well. Kurt is right, Johnson can't stand it when someone races him hard, just like Gordon last year at Texas. He thinks his crap don't stink. I'm glad he is into it with someone because this may stop his streak. And people on here are referring this incident between the 22 and 48 like about the '98 Richmond Spring race when Gordon was "woke" up by Rusty. Lets get serious, we all know that Gordon was the class of the field that year regardless of getting put in the wall by Rusty. It was a matter of time before he completely dominated. Johnson has a lot of competition this year unlike Gordon did that year. 119. Ryan posted: 09.11.2011 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He (Harvick) won the '03 Brickyard 400, and didn't win again until 2005. He won the '07 Daytona 500, and didn't win again for over 3 years. His most recent win was this year's Coke 600. Are we going to see another long winless streak?" I'd hate to be the person that asked this question two weeks ago on the Bristol board. 120. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2011 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd hate to be the person that asked this question two weeks ago on the Bristol board." Lol. Do you really think I'm ashamed of that? First off, I didn't say "he will definitely have a long winless streak" I just wondered aloud. Secondly, go read the first few comments on the 2nd Michigan page from this year as Spen and I exchange predictions we had made previously made that were way off the mark. 121. 18fan posted: 09.12.2011 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just when it looked like the young, immature Kurt Busch was gone, it reared its ugly head again when he got into an altercation with a reporter on pit road when the reporter asked if either Kurt or Jimmie could win the chase and Kurt got pissed off saying that he knew that the topic would be brought up. Kurt walked away and the reporter(NASCAR.com's Joe Menzer) yelled at him as Kurt was walking away that it was a legitimate question. Kurt then starting yelling expletives at Menzer and appeared to want to fight him. Kurt had to be restrained by his team to prevent him from attacking Menzer. And that was before the whole "I didn't say that tonight" incident in the media center. 122. Mr X posted: 09.12.2011 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really hope that there aren't any more races sponsored by Pistachios, their commercials were quite annoying, could've been a really great race if it weren't for 85 caution laps. Dale Jr wont win the Chase, Dale Jr & Steve Letarte cant put one entire race together, nevermind 10 races, they've been quite invisible lately. I think now that they've made the Chase that will allow them to be more aggressive, but it wont be enough. Tony Stewart isn't consistant enough to win the title. Ryan Newman is better then Stewart this year but not enough, I also have difficulty imagining Ryan as a serious title contender. Kurt Busch is a maybe, I honestly think that Jimmie and Kurt will probably realize that its business time, and will drive accordingly. I'm also not sure they can put 10 complete races together. Jimmie has won under this joke of a points system 5 years in a row now, he'll be a favourite to win Dover, Loudon, Charlotte, Martinsville, and Phoenix. Plus the 48 is as fast as ever this year, They've performed well through the summer. Plus Hendrick equipment is virtually bulletproof. Carl has his work cut out for him this year, Bob Osbourne prooved he can make exceptionally stupid calls last night, they had a car to win and almost strategized themselves into a 25th place finish, and they weren't boxed into that strategy either. Bob Osbourne says "We need one more stop, we're in our fuel window, we have worn tires like everyone else, we have track position, lets stay out." Roush equipment is usually fast, but fickle aswell. Short tracks plague this team. Matt is like Carl, strong but they've adjusted themselves out of wins in Atlanta and Bristol. Matt will be a factor but I'm not sure he'll be strong enough to win it all. Jeff Gordon must be a favourite, he has the momentum, and the poise to win the title, Jeff is definitely the smartest, most experienced driver in the Chase, he wont cost the team anything in some failed attemt at anything stupid, not to mention I can't think of any possible distractions. Despite being a Gordon fan, I only want this Championship for Jeff if he wins it under the old format aswell. Kevin Harvick definitely has a shot at the title aswell, if the #29 team has been experimenting as much as it looks like they have, they should have plenty of speed in reserve, and when things are going right Harvick is as good as any driver in this series. Maybe he'll get the trophy and cheque he should've gotten last year. Kyle Busch is another player, they have speed, but Kyle has maturity issues, JGR has durability issues, the NNS, and CWTS will most likely be huge distractions, Kyle may fall to pieces like in previous years. Last year Kyle cost himself multiple laps by "fingering" an official. NASCAR better hope for their already weaning credibility's sake that a wild card driver doesn't win the chase, its bad enough they even have a chance, they dont deserve one. 48 hours ago Denny and Brad were about 130-150 points out of the lead and now for no reason they're 12 points out. 123. 18fan posted: 09.12.2011 - 1:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The question about the 29 team is when did they start experimenting, because they were up and down in the beginning of the season as well. 124. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.12.2011 - 6:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will reiterate. Dale can't win with Letarte. If Letarte couldn't even don anything right with the best driver of this era (after maybe only Dale Sr.), then he certainly won't do anything with Dale who is at best a 1 title driver. On the other side, I think Jeff is the favorite. He is thse only guy in the Chase who has: 1) Good enough equipment (Tony fall out) 2) Good enough crew chief (Hamlin and Dale fall out) 3) Good enough driving (Newman falls out) 4) The determination (Dale (again) and Kes fall out due to lack of confidence and choking respectively; Kes is good, but this is too much too fast for anyone to handle) 5) No enemies made in this calendar year (Shrub, Kevin, Carl, Jimmie, and Kurt all fall out) That leaves Jeff and Kenseth to battle for the title. Kenseth is a sleeper pick, but in no way a darkhorse. If it doesn't work this way, then it is proof that NASCAR is really NA$CAR, and that the team owners are all a bunch of unmitigated a-holes like I have thought. Hello, title #6 Jimmie. Hendrick would do it because he doesn't want Jeff anymore. He would rather have Landon Cassill than Jeff's paycheck... Here's to hoping that my criteria pick the champion. 125. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2011 - 9:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think you can question Brad's determination. The question is whether or not he is too determined. What will hurt them is the short flat tracks (NH, MVille, Phx). Best case scenario for them at these races is about a 12th place car. And that is if they don't blow a right front tire. I think Brad has definitely arrived. Granted I am a huge fan, but this hot streak he had from Pocono through Atlanta could be seen coming. They just finally started being able to put a whole race together. 126. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.12.2011 - 9:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you make a good point, but can you imagine the pressure if you go from 20th in the points last year, you are 20th in the points again, and now you are suddenly in the Chase. If I were Brad, I would be overwhelmed, and you are getting it from a person who clepped Calc 2. 127. Anonymous posted: 09.12.2011 - 9:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards and Ragan were the only drivers to have top-5s in both Richmond races. 128. Smokefan05 posted: 09.12.2011 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That leaves Jeff and Kenseth to battle for the title. Kenseth is a sleeper pick, but in no way a darkhorse. If it doesn't work this way, then it is proof that NASCAR is really NA$CAR, and that the team owners are all a bunch of unmitigated a-holes like I have thought. Hello, title #6 Jimmie. Hendrick would do it because he doesn't want Jeff anymore. He would rather have Landon Cassill than Jeff's paycheck... Here's to hoping that my criteria pick the champion." So its NASCAR fault if Jeffie Poo doesn't win the Cup? Wow, that is one great excuse is too blame NASCAR for your drivers enability to beat Jimmie. The only person who should get blame is Jeff for not pulling it out if Jimmie wins #6. Since everyone races under this "joke" of system, then its their fault for not beating Jimmie the past 5 years. Rules are the same for everyone. I guess it was a "joke" when Matt 'points raced' his way to a Championship in 2003? Yeah it was a "joke" from what i hear, and one of the "jokey" reason why we have this "joke" of a current system is because this "joke" of the fan base with its endless bit##ing about everything. Oh and i guess Richard Pettys 5 championships under 5 different systems are a "joke" too........-_- Geez, same sh**, different day. 129. BON GORDON posted: 09.12.2011 - 11:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im a huge Jeff Gordon fan and i agree with smokefan05. Hendrick cares about all of his drivers the same in my mind regaurdless of the results. Jimmie has been the best the last five years or so. Jeff just couldnt beat him whether its speed, bad luck, handling, etc. There's no conspiracy. You try to win the title no matter what the system is. These drivers and teams have noone to blame but themselves. They could beat Johnson but no lets change the system. I think Jimmie Johnson could win titles under any points system. That team is awesome but others can step it up too. Im sure Hendrick would love for Jimmie to get 6 straight but at the same time he knows it would be good for NASCAR and his team if Gordon can rise from the ashes of defeat and hoist his fifth and likely last title. Regaining past glory. 130. 00andJoe posted: 09.12.2011 - 11:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I guess it was a "joke" when Matt 'points raced' his way to a Championship in 2003? Yeah it was a "joke" from what i hear, and one of the "jokey" reason why we have this "joke" of a current system is because this "joke" of the fan base with its endless bit##ing about everything." Hear, hear! Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans got what they wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees... 131. Scott B posted: 09.12.2011 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to 00 and Joe's post... Owner standings by best finishing team car, and number of cars in the chase: 1. Hendrick, 1059, 3 teams in out of 4. 2. Gibbs, 1054, 2 teams in out of 3. 3. Roush, 1048, 2 teams in out of 4. 4. Childress, 1001, 1 team in out of 3. 5. Penske, 971, 2 teams in out of 2. 6. Stewart-Haas, 914, 2 teams in out of 2. Teams in the chase by manufacturers: Chevy 6 Toyota 2 Ford 2 Dodge 2 132. Scott B posted: 09.12.2011 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edit: that should be 1 of 4 for Childress. And one more angle, drivers who missed the chase, but had teammates who made it: Mark Martin, Hendrick (lame duck) Joey Logano, Gibbs Greg Biffle, Roush David Ragan, Roush Clint Bowyer, Childress Jeff Burton, Childress Paul Menard, Childress 133. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.12.2011 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but can you imagine the pressure if you go from 20th in the points last year, you are 20th in the points again, and now you are suddenly in the Chase." Brad to me doesn't seem like the type of driver who would choke. I could be wrong, but given that he was indeed below 20th in points before his Pocono win, like you said, I'm sure he doesn't expect to blow everyone away in the cha$e. I think a realistic goal for him would be to at least compete for a top 5 points finish. "Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans got what they wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees... " You know what the funniest part is? The cha$e was implemented in the first place because NASCAR listened to all the fans who complained about how Kenseth won the 2003 title. Granted he only won once, but he put together a better season overall than anyone else did (yes, even Ryan Newman was too inconsistent to win it). People say Matt didn't deserve his title and that it was a joke, but if that were the case, why didn't anyone else come close to beating him? I'd much rather see someone "race" their way to a "boring" championship once in a while than have the entire championship be decided on the basis of 10/36 races. 134. 21ForeverDP posted: 09.12.2011 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SmokeFan05 makes a good, but makes himself a jacka$$ doing so. The point is Jeff is clearly better than Jimmie in equipment this year, but would Hendrick give Jeff crud for the bonus of having the six time reigning hack, who wouldn't have over half of his titles without the Chase. HELLo! As a driver, Jimmie has only been a title deserving driver for 70 Chase races + his none-Chase wins. No season-long greatness EVER. When everyone else except for the 74 Richard Petty with the psycho format, who else has ever won the title and clearly not the most consistent driver. The titles that Jimmie would have won even with pre-04 points still would have been by the skin of his teeth. Heck, Jimmie only outscored Harvick by only 21 points in last year's Chase. That means Harvick had season-lone 300 more points. Champion! Hell no. See also 2007. 135. Scott B posted: 09.12.2011 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^^^ Also, with all the hype and tinkering with the system, guess how many drivers raced their way into the Chase at Richmond this week? If you guessed zero, you are correct. The same twelve who were in Chase positions going in, came out in Chase spots. While it wasn't a mathematical certainty that they would clinch, it was the most likely outcome (or at least the one I expected). Meanwhile, over in the Truck series, there's 4 drivers within 17 points of the series lead late in the season, without any playoff system. I say let it play out naturally, and value every race of the season equally. However, I don't consider JJ's championships a joke because of the Chase. He and Chad Knaus may have adapted to the system quicker than others, but everyone knew what the rules were going to be when each season started. The 2003 controversy was really more about how much of a bonus should be attached to winning a race, which is a totally legit question to debate. The Chase has a lot more to do with the start of the NFL regular season schedule on Sundays than it has to do with the issue of the fairest was the determine the season champion. 136. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 09.12.2011 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big news regarding Kyle Busch, he'll only run 3 more Nationwide races for remainder of the season. Joey Logano is in the #18 NNS car this week. Looks like KB finally sees the big picture. 137. Talon64 posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The one thing I'm afraid of for BraKes and the #2 in the Chase is that they'll just run out of steam like Brian Vickers did in 2009 when he made the Chase and just tanked. While I don't think BraKes is going to completely tank, it's not out of the question and I think they won't finish higher than 7th in pts. Doesn't mean they won't win another race before the year's out and I'll be hoping I'm wrong. And somehow Kurt Busch made me appreciate Carl Edwards more. Because as much as I've ragged on him and joked about Carl being a sociopath he's not really a bad guy. He just has a bad temper and terrible decision making skills at the worst times, but he's been as clean as anyone this year. But Kurt? Like someone said, he's just a bad person. And there's no driver as insecure and jealous as he is. The insecurity is why he left Roush for Penske because he knew he would never be THE guy at Roush so he left to be THE guy at Penske. Which he was, which is why he cut down a bit on the jerk factor. But how coincidental that in this season, where not only does Kyle Busch continue to make Kurt the other brother, as Jimmie Johnson continues to dominate the sport and make everyone forget Kurt's complete fluke of a championship in 2004 (this is where the jealousy is prevalent), but now Kurt actually has a teammate in Brad Keselowski at Penske who's not only outperforming him but doing better in the #2 Miller Lite car than Kurt ever did in any of the previous 5 seasons. So now Kurt has to poke the bear to convince himself, let alone everyone else, that he can get in Jimmie's head and throw him off his game. And as that fails the jerk we all knew and hated is back in full force. In the 4 races following Kurt and Jimmie's tangle at Pocono, Kurt finished 38th, 34th, 17th and 4th while Jimmie finished 10th, 2nd, 4th and 2nd. So who's in who's head? And Kurt shouldn't throw stones that can be thrown at himself. From 2002 to 2005 Kurt's 14 wins were 3rd in the sport only to Jimmie Johnson (18) and Jeff Gordon (15) and never won fewer than 3 races in a year. But since joining Penske he's got 9 wins in 6 seasons (ranked 10th) and never more than 2 in a year. Wow, that Roush equipment sure made Kurt look good! In short, Kurt's an asshole who's going to fail miserably in his attempt to thwart Jimmie Johnson's run of championships. Unless he intentionally wrecks Jimmie to cost him the championship, which would be one of the lowest things a driver's done in a long time; I'm sure he'd lose what speck of respect the fans have for him, it would probably cost him the respect of the teams and drivers. But I'm sure Kurt couldn't give a shit about that since he's got his train of Barbie doll girlfriends to lord about. Again, that insecurity thing. [/rant] 138. Mr X posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have never complained in my life about the quality of Matt Kenseth's 2003 championship. Matt won the title fair and square. I believe that NASCAR should punish at bad finish almost as badly as they reward a win. Matt took a very conservative route to the 2003 Championship and givin what his main competition, Johnson, Earnhardt Jr, Gordon, Harvick, & Newman put up, it was just barely enough to win the title, and you cant blame him for trying it, in 2002 Matt was won the most races on the tour and look what it got him. The only difference that should've been made was making wins worth more than 175 points, which they did. After Dover Matt had a 436 point lead, and you cant blame Matt for that lead, all you can blame is Harvick, Gordon, Newman, Johnson, and Earnhardt Jr for letting Matt get that far ahead. Matt put up 22 top 10's in the first 28 races, nobody else had more then 16 in the first 28. Matt put up 1 win, 11 top 5's, 25 top 10's, 31 top 15's, and only 3 finishes outside the top 30 in 36 races. Matt was as fast as anyone in first 28 races, and they made smart decisions that allowed them to make it to the finish. His big points lead was shrinking at an unbelievable rate in the last 8 races due to some mechanical issues, a crash, and his competitors gaining speed on him, particularly the Chevrolets. If the season were a few races longer Matt would've lost it. Not to mention Matt's 2003 season with 5022 points wouldn't have been strong enough to win the title in any years since. 2003 was like 2002 from that standpoint, just a low performance year. If you actually look at the first 3/4 of Jimmie's 2003 season its obvious why he didn't win the title. 12 top 10's and 2 wins in 27 races isn't title material. Jimmie lost the title by 90 points, if you go back to Dover in June of 2003, Matt finished 7th. We all know how well Jimmie runs Dover, he swept the place in his rookie year, and has dominated and won many races since. Well June 2003 was no different, Jimmie led 36 laps and was running up front, UNTIL he overdrove the exit of turn 2, lost it all by himself, and crashed. He finished 38th. Matt scored 146 points, Jimmie scored 54. 146-54=92. There are other examples of this too. Matt finished higher then Jimmie in 20 of 36 races. Dale Jr didn't have any more success then Matt did, and had less consistancy. Matt had more top 15's then Dale Jr. had top 30's. Jeff Gordon was like Ryan Newman in 2003, he led 1639 laps, he had the cars to win about 10 races probably, but during the summer he had a 10 race stretch where he had 6 finishes of 24th or worse, and during the season he finished outside the top 20 in 1/4 of the races. Kevin was like Dale Jr. Matt had more top 10's then Kevin had top 15's. Ryan Newman won 8 races, but he also had 7 finishes of 31st or worse, 11 outside the top 20. He was 27th in points after Richmond in May, Ryan dug himself a hole half way to China before he started running well consistantly. Matt didn't win many races but I don't know how Ryan planned to win the title when he spent half of the first third of the season in the garage area. Matt had more top 15's then Ryan had top 30's. Ryan had a dominant car in the Southern 500 but hit the kill switch and lost 8 laps. Matt finished higher then Ryan in 22 of 36 races. I am not a Matt Kenseth fan by the way, I'm a Jeff Gordon fan. The point is that under the old points system teams who wanted to win the championship had to proove it 36 times a year. The eventual champion had to get the best finish he possibly could every single race, every race was equal. In 1996 Jeff Gordon lost the title to Terry Labonte on lap 10 of the Daytona 500. Under the new points system the guy who wins the title is the guy who is best across less than a third of the season, and in the past almost any team has been able to put 10 good races together, not to mention some teams almost throw away the first 26. Every single driver deserved to finish exactly where they did in points, Kyle Busch should've been 3rd in 2008, not 10th. Tony Stewart should've been higher then 11th in 2006. Kevin Harvick should be the 2010 champ. Kurt Busch has a trophy on his mantle that says he is the 2004 Nextel Cup Champion. The 2004 season was 36 races long, between Daytona and Homestead, Kurt Busch was the best between Loudon and Homestead. It says Jeff was best but it was most likely Jimmie in 2004, and Jamie McMurray should've been higher then 11th. Under the new points system Denny Hamlin, Brad Keselowski, Dale Jr, and Tony Stewart have had their 100+ point deficits wiped out because NASCAR wants anyone of 12 drivers to have a shot at the title, but they dont deserve it. Seeding the chase based on wins is even worse, last year Denny Hamlin jumped from 9th to 1st when the chase started. The fact is that I have yet to see a year when 12 drivers deserve a shot at the title, and when it happens the chase will be unnecessary. The most I've ever seen is 5 or 6 like in 2011(check old points system after Richmond), and some years like 2010, 2007, 2001-1998, 1994, 1987, and other years there was only one man who deserved that big cheque and trophy. Those guys outran their competition big time in those years and deserved the big points lead, and to lock up the title weeks in advance. What made the 1992 points battle so great was the fact that after 29 races, the entire season, it came down to who led the most laps in the season finale. This is the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series and the competition between the top teams is truly closer then it ever has been, we should be seperating the men from the boys, not rigging a tight points finish between undeserving teams and drivers. 139. Talon64 posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2002 was another year with a lot of title contenders; Tony Stewart (who ended up winning), Mark Martin, Jimmie Johnson (as a rookie!) and Sterling Marlin (until he broke a vertebrae :( ). It ended up being Tony vs. Mark as Sterling had his issues and Jimmie fell off in the last 6 races or so after taking the point lead. But it was also a year where it didn't look like anyone wanted to win the championship, since Tony's title-winning average finish was 12.6. 140. Mr X posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony also had 6 DNF's and 4800 points in 36 races is pretty damn low. 141. Dodge posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sure Kurt was wrong with the way he acted. But he walked away then Menzler yelled at him saying it was a legitimate question. Menzler would of been better to just look for the next guy to talk. Everyone know how the Busch's are, but when they are in a horrible mood, they still gotta stick that mike in their faces. I in NO WAY believe that Kurt was right in his actions, but I think Menzler didn't conduct himself professionally either by yelling at him. 142. Anonymous posted: 09.12.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So the video of Kurt Busch ripping the paper in the media center has finally surfaced: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6958013 I have to say, I'm a little disappointed. The media really exaggerated it, but that's no surprise since they are the ones controlling the message and can easily make themselves appear more sympathetic. They made it sound as if Kurt Busch was asked a question the media center, denied what he had said, and then purposely walked across the room while the other drivers looked on, tore the paper, and "stormed" out. They reported on it like it was most disrespectful thing that any human has ever done to another human being (only since it happened to one of them), yet they are sitting there basically laughing about it after it happened. If the media calls what Busch did there, "storm(ing)" out, as several of them did, it really makes me wonder about all those times they claimed Kyle Busch "stormed" out of some place. Or Tony Stewart (also not popular with the media). Or any other driver who has done something in frustration or the heat of the moment after a race. Too often the media manipulates the truth to aid a story, and add some sensationalism, and this appears to be another one of those times. Now I wonder what really happened between Kurt and that pit road reporter. One thing is for sure, you can't trust the NASCAR media. They aren't here to report the whole truth, and they aren't here to be the driver's friends. If making a driver appear more villainous or more sympathetic by tweaking details helps their story, they'll do it. Kurt Busch deserves scorn for a number of things, but after seeing this whole paper ripping thing with my own eyes, I'm willing to give him a pass on that one. Still a dick move, but I see now how it came about from frustration with the media, not him being an inherently terrible person. 143. Talon64 posted: 09.12.2011 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin Harvick picked up his 18th career Sprint Cup victory, tying him with Geoffrey Bodine, Neil Bonnett, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Harry Gant for 40th all time and 24th in the modern era. His 18 wins are the 8th most since he moved to Cup full time in 2001. Harvick tied Kyle Busch for the lead in wins this season with 4, his 2nd most wins ever in a year (5 in 2006). It's his 2nd Richmond win, the 4th track where he's won multiple times but has yet to win more than twice at any track (Phoenix and Chicagoland are two of those and they're in the Chase). It's just his 2nd top 5 in the 10 races since his 2006 win, but his 12th top 10 in the last 14 races there (8.3 avg fin, career 11.5 avg fin in 22 starts). It's RCR's 99th career Cup win and 8th at Richmond (5 with Earnhardt, 2 with Harvick and 1 with Clint Bowyer). Carl Edwards records his series-leading 4th runner-up finish of the season. It's his best finish in the 16 races since his last runner-up finish at Darlington back in May. Carl had only led 18 laps in the previous 10 races before leading 113 here (9th time in 255 starts he's led 100+ laps). 2nd is Carl's best career finish in 15 Richmond starts, but his 3 career top 5's there have come in the last 4 races (4 top 10's, 5.5 avg fin, 221 laps led). Jeff Gordon's now had at least 10 top 5's in 16 of his 19 seasons in Cup (1993, 1994 and 2005 the only exceptions). It's his 3rd consecutive podium finish, first time since October 2007 he's done so. He's picked his 15th career top 5 at each of Bristol, Atlanta and now Richmond (38 starts, 14.5 avg fin) in that stretch. David Ragan gets his first top 5 in the 9 races since his July Daytona win, but his 3rd top 5 in 10 Richmond starts (tied with Daytona for his most at any track). Kurt Busch has back-to-back top 5's for the first time this season. It's just his 3rd top 10 in the last 8 Richmond races (19.9 avg fin, career 17.4 in 22 starts). Kyle Busch gets his first career stand-alone top 10 finish at Richmond in 6th, ending his streak of 5 consecutive top 5's but extending his top 10 streak to 6. It's his 12th top 10 in 14 Richmond starts, raising his average finish there to a pedestrian 5.0. Kyle Busch has yet to go longer than 2 races in a row without a top 10. For all the concerns about whether Tony Stewart would make the CHase, this was Tony's 5th top 10 in the last 8 races; he's scored the 6th most points in that span, although Brad Keselowski was 2nd and outscored him by 33 points. Tony finished in the top 10 in both Richmond races this year and now has 17 in 26 starts there (10.9 avg fin). Ryan Newman gets his 4th top 10 in the last 6 Richmond races (10.2 avg fin, 11.6 in 20 career starts). Denny Hamlin now has at least 10 top 10's in every full season he's competed in Cup (6 straight seasons since 2006). It's his season-high 3rd straight top 10, a streak that's come after putting a 28.25 avg fin in the 4 races before that. Mark Martin gets his 2nd top 10 in the last 4 races. Mark's had at least 10 top 10's in each of the last 23 seasons (1988-2010) and had 8 this season with 10 races to go and is on pace for 11. It's his first top 10 in the last 4 Richmond races and his 28th in 52 career starts there (12.2 avg fin). AJ Allmendinger finished 11th for a 4th time this season, his 5th straight finish of 12th or better (10.4 avg fin). Brad Keselowski's 6 race top 10 streak comes to an end. But it's his 14th top 15 finish of the season after only having 15 in his first 53 starts in the series. Casey Mears gets his best finish of the season so far in 17th and just his 2nd top 20 finish. Regan Smith has 3 top 20's in the last 4 races. David Reutimann earned his 4th career Sprint Cup pole, his first since 2009 at Dover. Unfortunately, in the 4 races he's started from pole his average finish is 18.75 with a best finish of 11th. In his 12 career top 5's, his average start is 14.1 with a best of 4th and only 4 top 10 starts. 144. Scott B posted: 09.12.2011 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whatever happened, I doubt Kurt is getting into anyone's head but his own. When it comes to psychological warfare, none of the current bad boys have really figured that out. They simply throw tantrums from time to time. I haven't seen a driver who really understood how the push his rivals' buttons and use it to his advantage in a calculated way since the Intimidator passed. Brad K may master that craft eventually, he seems to have some of the instincts but still needs to refine his game. 145. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2011 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't have a ton of respect for the media that currently covers the sport. I don't think they do a very good job. But still, there is a thing called human decency. Lashing out at the media members is just a weak thing to do. That is part of the deal they have to be prepared for. They are going to have their every move dissected and asked questions they don't want to talk about. It is a small price for the millions of dollars they get, their lake homes, their top of the line motor homes, their private jets, and girls that wouldn't be caught dead with them if they weren't rich. Talon, you nailed it. 146. 00andJoe posted: 09.12.2011 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chigagoland entry list is out, 48 cars: -Bayne in the #21 -Stremme in the #30 -Bliss in the #32 -Leicht in the #35 -Josh Wise in the #37 -Yeley in the #38 -Bell in the #50 (won't be mentioning him again as he's now regular) -Kvapil in the #55 -Starr in the #95 147. 18fan posted: 09.12.2011 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, the one thing I will dispute about Kurt is that you said Brad is doing better than Kurt ever did in the #2 car. While he has won more than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009 Kurt was the only guy who was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase and actually had a better overall season than Mark Martin did. And until Watkins Glen this year, even if Brad had more wins, Kurt was still much better than Brad, although that is where the fortunes of the Penske drivers changed. I do think Brad has a better title shot than Kurt, but its because of Kurt's mentality, not Kurt's ability. 148. Spen posted: 09.13.2011 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 21ForeverDP: "who else has ever won the title and clearly not the most consistent driver" That happened plenty of times under the old systems. 1951 is probably the most blatent example. Herb Thomas was far less consistent (and less dominant) than Fonty Flock, but he won the Southern 500, which was worth about six times as many points as a normal race. Other examples include 1953, where Lee Petty finished in the top twenty in every race (a feat only equaled by Bill Elliott in 1988), but didn't win as much as Thomas. 1961 where Ned Jarrett won a quite inexplicable championship (Rex White beat him in every single category, and Ned didn't win any of the big races. I really have no clue what happened that year.). 1963 probably shouldn't have gone to Weatherly, as Petty clearly had a better year, but Joe finished higher in the races that mattered. Benny's '73 championship is a little questionable too, as aside from laps completed (which is all that mattered that year) Cale had a slightly more consistent, and far more dominant season. (If we still used the '73 point system, David Ragan would hav been the champion in 2008. I do believe that takes the cake of most absurd idea ever.) '74, while convoluted wasn't quite as bad as you make it out. At least Petty was clearly in the running. Under the Latford system, Cale would have won by 9 points, but that wouldn't have been very hard to make up. It would have been a far more exciting year under that system, that's for sure. And even under the Latford system, there were years where the most consistent driver didn't win. Bobby Allison in 1981, Mark Martin 1990 (though that was a penelty, not a point system faliure. Closer to 1950.) Dale Earnhardt 1995. Mark Martin 1997. Mark Martin 2002 (notice a pattern here?). Overall though, it had a higher accuracy level than the previous systems (except for the 1968-71 one), and far better than the chase. 149. Anonymous posted: 09.13.2011 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lashing out at the media members is just a weak thing to do. That is part of the deal they have to be prepared for. They are going to have their every move dissected and asked questions they don't want to talk about. It is a small price for the millions of dollars they get, their lake homes, their top of the line motor homes, their private jets, and girls that wouldn't be caught dead with them if they weren't rich." Well it's not like they are rich for no reason. They earn their money by doing something dangerous, that requires years and years of training and enormous skill, puts them on the road and away from families for most of the year, and comes with tremendous pressure to perform or else their career is over and all of the time and effort put forth is essentially wasted. So I'm a bit more sympathetic to a driver when they get wrecked or have a bad day, and aren't exactly in the mood to have a dozen microphones and cameras shoved in their face as soon as they get out of their car. More than likely they are thinking about how many points they lost and how that could affect a season they've been working at for months, or how much money they lost (think of the difference in winnings, some bonehead move by another driver could cost you several thousand dollars), or how their team is going to be affected, not how to be polite to the reporter that's barely more than a paparazzi looking for a quote and a story. 150. 21ForeverDP posted: 09.13.2011 - 6:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks Spen, but notice that every year you pointed out had something screwy happen (except for '81 and '95). Like in 51, the Southern 500 gave out 1250 points; Herb wound up with 5200. In the 50s and 60s, more points were given out at the big tracks. Say, Menard and Smith got 125 points for their wins instead of 47; it was like that. Also, look at 64; it was really bad. 151. Sean posted: 09.13.2011 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hear, hear! Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans got what they wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees..." Nobody wanted a so-called playoff with the exact same points system otherwise. The fans (like me) who wanted a different points system wanted a points system with larger gaps between the top positions that reflected winning more, which NASCAR STILL didn't do (besides a nominal bonus for the first-place finisher). I don't get the argument that the most consistent driver should ALWAYS win the championship. Why on earth should Bobby Allison have won the 1981 title over Darrell Waltrip when DW won 12 races and was ALMOST as consistent? Why should Mark Martin have won the 1990 title over Earnhardt when Earnhardt won 9 races and was ALMOST as consistent? And Terry Labonte's 1996 title was particularly ludicrous. He and Gordon had the same number of top 5s and top 10s and Gordon had EIGHT more wins. So Labonte was being rewarded by finishing 17th in his bad races while Gordon was being punished by finishing 37th in his. In almost EVERY other series's points system which accurately measures winning, Gordon would have had a runaway. The issues with the points system were that there should be larger gaps between the top positions and that the lowest positions shouldn't score points at all, or at least the same number of points. This would cause the value of a mid-pack finish versus DNF to diminish (like in any good points system) and would increase the value of a top finish to keep somebody from being able to win the title with 36 7th place finishes and hardly ever leading. I'm not criticizing Kenseth here. He's been on both sides of the coin, winning the most races in 2002 and finishing a ridiculous eighth. Obviously that's what inspired him to become a points racer in 2003 and years following... All the chase did was made it possible to (basically) win the title with 26 12th place finishes followed by 10 7th place finishes. BLAH. CART points system: 20-16-14-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 (13th or lower - 0) IRL points system: 50-40-35-32-30-28-26-24-22-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13 (18th-24th - 12, 25th-33rd - 10) Old F1 points system: 10-6-4-3-2-1 Current F1 points system: 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 Note that in every case the modern points systems give the second place finisher about 80% of the winner's points, and give 4th-5th place more or less half. THAT, in my opinion, is what a real points system is like. In the F1/CART/IRL systems, the champion isn't always the guy who wins the most races. Al Unser won the 1983 CART title despite winning one race to Teo Fabi's four because he was more consistent. Bobby Rahal won the 1992 title over Michael Andretti despite winning one fewer race (and Michael being FAR more dominant in the races themselves) because Michael wasn't reliable. Consistency still matters, but it's a better balance than NASCAR's title has ever been. I'm not saying the championship should be the guy with the most wins. No way. Matt Kenseth certainly didn't deserve it in 2002 and Kasey Kahne certainly didn't deserve it in 2006, but the modern NASCAR points system is skewed waaaaaay towards consistency, as evidenced by Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson being the ONLY drivers to win titles in seasons they won the most races since 1990(!). In a real points system, Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine wouldn't have been close to winning titles in 1994, but they would have been a lot better than 22nd and 16th instead of being behind people like Lake Speed, Michael Waltrip, Ted Musgrave, and Kyle Petty who had completely forgettable seasons. Wins not being awarded significantly enough is one issue, but the bigger issue is that the back half of the field is rewarded points at all...only the top 20 or top 25 should be. DNFs are penalized WAY too harshly to the point where it can be better to get two 15th place finishes than having a win and a DNF. That is a WRONG design for a title. Terry Labonte wasn't even more consistent than Jeff Gordon (really), they had the same number of top 5s and top 10s and Gordon had 8 more wins. That season should have shown the flaws in that points system adequately. Now they have this 43-1 points system that is EVEN MORE EXTREME towards consistency and we're supposed to be excited about it? I REALLY don't get this argument that you shouldn't criticize change if it's not the same change you wanted, but people have been throwing it around for years. Most of the "classic" points system critics (I believe) were like me (wanting wins to be rewarded more and back-half finishes to be rewarded far less), wanting a change to the BASELINE of the system. The chase uses the exact same baseline (and the current points system uses an even more extreme one, because it removes the marginal gaps for top 5 and top 10 positions), so why should people who criticized the points system on THAT basis be happy about the chase just because they wanted a change? That's nuts. 152. Scott B posted: 09.13.2011 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I've always wonders about the 1961 points, too. As you say, Rex White had an edge over Ned in every statisical category (including 7 wins to 1), but finished 2nd. Really, Joe Weatherly was the dominant driver that season, with 9 wins in 25 starts, but running only about half the schedule it was impossible for him to be the champion. Then again, Lil' Joe won 5 of the last 10 races, so under the Chase format, he kicked everyone's butt. :) 153. Dodge posted: 09.13.2011 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In a real points system, Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine wouldn't have been close to winning titles in 1994, but they would have been a lot better than 22nd and 16th instead of being behind people like Lake Speed, Michael Waltrip, Ted Musgrave, and Kyle Petty who had completely forgettable seasons. Sean, the reason why Irvan was so far down in the 1994 points even though he won so many races is because he had that life-threatening accident. He was only about 34 points out up to that point. Can't really factor Irvan in on that part. 154. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2011 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 149, I don't have any problem with an occasional rant. We all do that from time to time to people that don't deserve it. Hell, look at Earnhardt's interview after the famous '89 North Wilkesboro race. That was pretty childish. But that was, for the most part, an exception (he was a jerk after the '95 Winston too). To bully reporters is something entirely different. And to do it time after time, like Smoke, is also something. He has been rallying against reporters since he arrived in NASCAR. 12 years later, nothing has changed, and he's still complaining. At what point do you realize you are just pissing into the wind? And most importantly, at what point do you realize that is exactly what the media wants? They play Tony like a fiddle. Then they get their soundbites to rehash over and over again during the week. "Mark Martin 1990 Dale Earnhardt 1995. Mark Martin 1997. Mark Martin 2002 (notice a pattern here?)." Oh yeah. Mark's conservativeness has always cost him. That is the good thing about the Latford system, it rewarded Top 5s and laps led quite a bit. Obviously we all wish it rewarded wins more, but it did reward the drivers who ran up front the most. Quite honestly, Mark in '90, '97, and '02, and Dale in '95, they didn't deserve the Cup those years. 155. Mr X posted: 09.13.2011 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I meant with post #138 is I think that NASCAR needs a points system that rewards wins, leading laps, and being aggressive, but the team has to make it happen. I believe winning 5 or more races in a year should make up for some minor consistancy issues, however with the Chase format winnig 5 or more races a year seems to buy you as many bad finishes as you want. I think that Matt definitely should've won the title in 2003 over Ryan, Matts extra consistancy made up for his lack of wins. In 1996 I'm biased, but Jeff should've won the title. Jeff and Terry had virtually the same amount of consistancy, but Jeff had 10 wins to Terry's 2, and 2314 to 973 laps led. In 1990 a points penalty cost Mark Martin the title, however Dale should've been able to win it regardless, Dale had the same number of top 10's, two more top 5's, 3 times as many wins, and 2438 to 448 laps led. There's no doubt that Darrell should've won the 1981 title, the extra 7 wins should've made up for the small difference in consistancy. I took it upon myself to create my own points system 1st pays an extra 40 points giving a good bonus for winning. 1st 380 2nd 340 3rd 330 4th 320 5th 310 6th 300 7th 290 8th 280 9th 270 10th 260 11th 250 12th 240 From 2nd through 12th every position is worth 10 points 13th 232 14th 224 15th 216 16th 208 17th 200 18th 192 19th 184 20th 176 21st 168 22nd 160 23rd 152 24th 144 25th 136 26th 128 27th 120 From 12th through 27th every position is worth 8 points 28th 115 29th 110 30th 105 31st 100 32nd 95 33rd 90 34th 85 35th 80 36th 75 37th 70 38th 65 39th 60 40th 55 41st 50 42nd 45 43rd 40 From 27th on back every spot is worth 5 points Bonus points would be awarded based on laps led. However they now range from 1 to 20. The number of laps a driver leads is divided by the number of laps in a race, giving a decimal number, multiply by 100 to get the full percentage, divide by 5 and round up or down to the nearest full number. That number is the number of bonus points that driver earned in that race. 68 laps led in a 200 lap race means 7 bonus points. It would reward trying to lead every lap. Drivers would no longer lead just 1 lap to obtain half as many bonus points as the guy who dominated the race. If a driver wants bonus points, he has to lead laps. A maximum points day becomes a simple 400 points, the minimum is 40, and the difference is 360. 156. BLabonte47 posted: 09.13.2011 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You have to love the people of this site. Every driver is either insecure or a mental nutcase except the few racing-reference darlings (Brad Keselowski, Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon). 157. Scott B posted: 09.13.2011 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No different than any other profession, some folks deal with a bad day at the office better than others. Most of use are fortunate enough not to have our worst moments recorded and posted to the interwebz, though. 158. Talon64 posted: 09.13.2011 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Talon64, the one thing I will dispute about Kurt is that you said Brad is doing better than Kurt ever did in the #2 car. While he has won more than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009 Kurt was the only guy who was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase and actually had a better overall season than Mark Martin did. And until Watkins Glen this year, even if Brad had more wins, Kurt was still much better than Brad, although that is where the fortunes of the Penske drivers changed. I do think Brad has a better title shot than Kurt, but its because of Kurt's mentality, not Kurt's ability." True, although Denny was really the best of the rest that year; 2 engine failures yet he still finished 5th in points thanks to his 2 Chase wins (but the wreck at California was 100% his fault). But that was by far Kurt's best season with Penske and the closest he's come to his Roush days. But I'm sure it helped that he had David Stremme and Sam Hornish Jr. as his teammates, it's probably the most in-control he's ever felt at Penske. 159. 00andJoe posted: 09.13.2011 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing about the Busch/Menzer situation that I wondered about was this: he had to know Kurt has a short temper, and then to (apparently) get mad when Busch declines to comment and shout about it being a legitmate question - did he -want- to make Kurt angry for some reason? "I REALLY don't get this argument that you shouldn't criticize change if it's not the same change you wanted" Well, it's not so much with the point system, but with the plate races, the criticism of the way things are now is, it seems, largely wanting the way it was (that was ranted and raved about then) -back-. (I.E. before: "These huge packs have to be broken up!" *two-car tango arrives* "Give us the huge packs back!") 160. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2011 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Mr X, I am glad you mentioned the idea of awarding points for laps led based on the number they lead instead of arbitrarily giving the same amount of points to every that leads laps, no matter how many, with the exception of whoever leads the most laps whose points are doubled. I like your idea. The one I have mentioned before is one point for every 5% of the race led, based on the number of scheduled laps. For example, at Martinsville, they get a point for every 25 laps led. So Jeff Burton would have got 20 bonus points just for leading at that '00 New Hampshire race. Overall though, under the Latford system (full seasons), I feel like it crowned the deserving champ all but once (in '96). Funny thing, he created it on a napkin in a restaurant. They put their best computers to work trying to come up with a good way to format the cha$e, and every single incarnation has failed. That is pretty funny to me. Kinda like how they put their best computers to work designing new tracks like Fontana and Texas, both of which suck, yet some peanut farmer jumps on his bulldozer in the late 40s, carves out a track on his land in Darlington, SC which has to be wedged beside a minnow pond, and the result has been classic racing for over 60 years. Go figure. 161. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2011 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I have a really bizarre theory about the 1990 Winston Cup battle and Mark's 46 point penalty. I think that penalty was almost the best thing that could have happened to them. For pretty much the whole second half of the year, his lead over Dale in the standings was right around 45 points or less, not a whole lot under the Latford system (Dale ended up erasing that in just one race at Phoenix). I think Dale and Richard looked at these upstarts in Mark and Roush Racing and expected them to fold under the pressure of them being close. So they didn't really press until the second to last race in Phoenix when it dawned on them "Holy shit, we are about out of time!". Remember, this was before we realized just how good Mark truly was, despite a solid 1989 season. I think, had that margain been 90 points instead in the second half of the year, they really would have thrown what they had at them earlier. It seems to me that Jack almost unwittingly lulled Dale and Richard to sleep with that penalty. Had Mark been aggressive in the last few laps at Phoenix when he had fresh tires, but kept letting slower cars on older tires block him, it might have worked (accidentally of course). But Dale took the points lead, then Mark and Jack finally DID crumble under the pressure of that black cloud at the famous Atlanta test. Just a theory though. 162. Red posted: 09.13.2011 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some thoughts on the points system debate: For those in the pro-consistency corner, I think there's one major factor that often gets overlooked: the effects of racing luck. Obviously there's no way to definitively quantify luck, but I believe it plays a much larger role in race outcomes than most people realize. Poor finishes and DNF's are often a result of circumstances outside the driver's control, such as being caught in someone else's wreck, or suffering a random mechaincal failure. A fast car can get burned by a caution during a cycle of pit stops, or being stuck on the wrong fuel strategy because of the way the cautions fall. In that light, I think it's very unfair to put such a harsh penalty on poor finishes, considering many of those finishes are just plain bad luck. Conversely, a driver's good finishes are much more indicative of his true performance, and are far more predictive of future performance. That's why I'm not all that impressed with seasons like Kenseth's 2003 or Bobby Labonte's 2000. They were strong, yes, but their titles were won by avoiding the bad luck that struck down their rivals, not by outrunning them. Lets' look at the seasons bookending Labonte's title run. Here are the number of times Bobby finished 30th or worse in each year: 1997: 5 1998: 6 1999: 2 2000: 0 2001: 5 2002: 10 2003: 10 I wonder, if consistently avoiding poor finishes was really some magical skill, then how come Bobby couldn't reproduce those results in any other season? Because it's NOT a skill - it's luck. The same thing is true for Kenseth, or any other driver to win a title based on plodding consistency. 163. Red posted: 09.13.2011 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paradoxically, I think one of the most overrated seasons in recent memory was Jeff Gordon's 2007 season. Forget the chase, I don't think Jeff was any better than Jimmie that year; rather, he was just luckier. Gordon had only one really bad finish, a 41st at Charlotte after being caught in a wreck. Meanwhile, Johnson had finishes of 39th, 38th, 42nd, 37th, and 39th, and none of them were really his fault. His 37th at Chicago came after being the dominant car and leading 82 laps before succumbing to engine failure. They were virtually tied in laps led (Gordon 1300, Johnson 1290), but Jimmie was more dominant in the categories that really measure a great season: Wins Johnson 10 Gordon 6 Podiums Johnson 17 Gordon 14 Driver Rating Johnson 110.3 Gordon 108.6 The point I'm trying to make is that Jeff and Jimmie's 2007 performances were about equal, but Jeff was simply luckier and that's why he scored 353 more points over the full season. Here's Jeff's seven year run of 30th or worse finishes: 2004: 6 2005: 12 2006: 7 2007: 1 2008: 7 2009: 2 2010: 4 Again, if "consistency" was a true, repeatable skill, then why couldn't Jeff consistently avoid bad finishes in all his other seasons? Even guys like Mark Martin and Terry Labonte who are known for their ability to take car of equipment had plenty of seasons that were riddled by DNF's and 30-something finishes. I apologize if I sound preachy, but as a statistically inclined person, I know that human nature wants to find an explanation for everything that happens, and it's hard for people to accept just how large a role random chance plays in almost everything we do, including racing. Rant over. 164. Mr X posted: 09.13.2011 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, my response to you is what the King Richard Petty said, to be successful in NASCAR racing you have to be lucky and good. 165. Spen posted: 09.14.2011 - 1:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but the bigger issue is that the back half of the field is rewarded points at all...only the top 20 or top 25 should be" The TM Master Cup series on Youtube is only awarding points to the top twenty finishers. And with that system, Alexis Rainsford has a decent shot at winning the title while skipping half the season. It just seems wrong to me that you can finish 21st and not gain a single point on someone who didn't even bother to show up. And wouldn't a system like that just punish bad finishes even worse than the current system? 166. 18fan posted: 09.14.2011 - 2:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The biggest problem with the current points system is that there is way too small of a gap between the positions in the top 10. Personally I didn't really see what was so difficult to understand the Latford system. Once you knew the increments, it was simple, but casual fans didn't want to know the increment system and wanted something simple, which they got. In no other point system that I know of outside of my local short track does the gap between 2nd and 3rd place points equal the gap between positions at the back of the pack. 167. 18fan posted: 09.14.2011 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my previous post it should read "Personally I didn't really see what was so difficult to understand about the Latford system." 168. Mr X posted: 09.14.2011 - 3:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Latford system was incredibly simple I thought, I had it virtually memorized. I loved it, and I dont care what position its for, but if Driver A finishes better then Driver B, Driver A deserves more points. The only thing I dislike is that I think a more complex points system usually does a better job of giving credit where credit is due. Fixing the car is just another way championship teams show their strength, they never quit, if they can they get the car back out on the track, they log laps and gain spots and points. JJ at Texas in 2009 is a great example, as is Carl Edwards earlier this year at Pocono, I don't know if I've even seen at team drop a valve, take the cylinder head off, put the engine back together, and finish the race. Great conspiracy theory by Jimmy Spencer on Nascar Race Hub tonight on Paul Menard's late spin at RIR 169. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.14.2011 - 5:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, yes. But Johnson SUCKED in every other category. 17 podiums, yes, but those were 17 shots in the dark. Jeff, on the other hand, ran top-10 week in, week out. He put up the most incredibly consistent season in 30 years! While Johnson actually sucked worse percent wise than Jeff did when he lost to Terry in 1996. There were no complaints in either case though, because there are just as many Jeff haters as likers and they cancel out. In 2007, Jeff averaged 3.5 more positions a race than Jimmie, an all time high under Latford's system. That means Jeff finished 151 spots ahead of Jimmie for the whole year, plus Jimmie only outscored Jeff by 21 points in the Chase, which would have been enough for Jimmie to barely finish second in the points while Jeff would have clinched at Texas. Sorry, but the only category Jimmie was better in that year was wins and podiums, and the point of the Latford system is to reward consistency. They felt it was wrong for the consistent driver to lost out so bad while being more consistent just cause the other driver more often. 170. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.14.2011 - 5:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I ran the points, though, I would give 10000 points for win, and 1 bonus point for every lap led at a short track and 1 mile track, and 2 for laps led at the intermediates, and 3 for laps led at Daytona, Talladega, and Pocono. 171. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.14.2011 - 8:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting stats Red. I think the deal with that is, every now and then, everything just comes together for a season like Bobby in '00 and Matt in '03. Remember that race at Sears Point in 2003 when Matt lost the carcass of one of his tires only about 50 feet from pit road? Sometimes it is just your year. But I agree. I really like your take on the 2007 season. Although I also love the Latford system, the biggest issue I have is that it punished bad races much more than it rewarded good finishes. 172. Sean posted: 09.14.2011 - 12:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sean, the reason why Irvan was so far down in the 1994 points even though he won so many races is because he had that life-threatening accident. He was only about 34 points out up to that point. Can't really factor Irvan in on that part." My point about Irvan is that he was very unfairly punished for not being able to run the last 11 races of that season. I guess I do think somebody who is dominant over 20 races should beat someone who is mediocre over 31 races... I designed a points system in my head that reflected winning more while not completely ignoring consistency - Earnhardt still won 1994 but Irvan went up to 4th and Bodine went up to 10th. No, not title threats, but that comes closer to measuring the performance over a SEASON in my mind. "It just seems wrong to me that you can finish 21st and not gain a single point on someone who didn't even bother to show up." Not to me. My biggest problem with the Latford points system is that mid-pack finishes are rewarded too much. Two 18th place finishes (109 points) were equivalent to a first place finish and leading the most laps (185 points) plus a last place finish (34 points). The problem is that the gap between positions should decrease through the field, not be essentially equivalent for the entire grid. As above, somebody like Ernie Irvan in 1994 would be losing 88 points a week to somebody finishing 25th...since he missed 11 races, that means they would gain an equivalent of 5.5 wins over the rest of the season. That is far too much. If you still want to go with the entire field scoring points, at the very least, I'd want to see 21st-43rd or 26th-43rd scoring the same points as the IRL does it giving 12 points to 18th-24th and 10 points to 25th-33rd. That is at least a fairer way of . Give a nominal points value to people who start in the race, okay. But it should be so that it would take five or six mid-pack or worse finishes to equal one win...not two. This also solves another of the things that to me is unprofessional about NASCAR - people returning to the track many laps down. Get in a Talladega big one? Stay off the track rather than run around 50 laps down to gain two positions on the track... This would have also rendered the Carl Edwards punting Brad Keselowski into outer space at Atlanta moot. If Edwards did not have any incentive to BE on the track, there would have been no caution. I think it's kind of crazy that there was a huge gap between mid-pack and last AND a huge gap between last and missing the race. They at least fixed the latter with the current points system. "And wouldn't a system like that just punish bad finishes even worse than the current system?" No, it wouldn't. It would decrease the gap between a mid-pack finish and a DNF so that essentially DNFs would be treated as mediocre finishes. A bad day is a bad day either way. Mediocre finishes are what would be punished. In other words, I'd want to stop the flaw in the points system that allows Jeremy Mayfield in '05, Brian Vickers in '09, Matt Kenseth last year, and Junior this year to sneak into the chase despite not really being competitive at all, or give Terry Labonte the title over Jeff Gordon in '96. I think the Latford system got it definitely wrong three times: 1985, 1993, and 1996, although I can see why somebody would argue for Waltrip instead of Elliott in '85 or Earnhardt instead of Wallace in '93. There are other seasons that would be inverted based on the points system I want, admittedly (1980 - Earnhardt vs. Yarborough - you can make a case for either really, 1992 - Kulwicki vs. Elliott - ditto), but I think the drivers in those title chases might have driven differently with a points system that awarded winning more so there's no saying that those would necessarily be inverted. 2003 - Ryan Newman would win over Matt Kenseth according to the system I want, which I definitely think is a mistake, but I think all in all, a points system that punishes mediocre finishes and rewards good ones more would come far closer to measuring actual performance, especially when you look at the top ten versus just the champion... 173. Sean posted: 09.14.2011 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, I didn't finish this sentence: That is at least a fairer way of giving everyone in the field points. 174. Scott B posted: 09.14.2011 - 12:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I doubt you will ever see NASCAR adopt a points system in Cup that cuts off after the top 20 positions. If they did, they'd have to abandon the goal of always having a 43 car field, or live with start & parks on an even larger scope that we've seen the last couple of seasons. They also would not want to put themselves in a position where a crowd favorite faces damage or mechanical problems early in the race, and the team doesn't have motivation to put the car back on the track, as in Mr X's examples. The "every position counts" credo has been with NASCAR for a long time, and in the TV era there's plenty of motivation to keep it alive, regardless of whatever other points adjustments are made. 175. Kinetic posted: 09.14.2011 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) So apparently Richard Childress told Menard to bring out the last caution. He would be a guy to pull an amateur stunt like that. What a joke. I'm sure Nascar won't investigate, because it would be damaging to the sport. 176. Dodge posted: 09.14.2011 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My point about Irvan is that he was very unfairly punished for not being able to run the last 11 races of that season. I guess I do think somebody who is dominant over 20 races should beat someone who is mediocre over 31 races... I designed a points system in my head that reflected winning more while not completely ignoring consistency - Earnhardt still won 1994 but Irvan went up to 4th and Bodine went up to 10th. No, not title threats, but that comes closer to measuring the performance over a SEASON in my mind. I agree. I see what your saying. 177. Scott B posted: 09.14.2011 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dodge, NASCAR designed the points system, especially from the era when Winston became involved and later, to deliberately punish drivers who don't run the full schedule. Fair or not, they expect their title contenders to run every week. An interesting idea along those lines, though, might be giving drivers a few "mulligans" where they can drop a certain number of bad finishes out of their results for the season. The Rookie of the Year Award has done this for years. A last place finish would still be worth more than a missed race, and 30th would still be worth more than 43rd, so there pressure to be consistant is reduced without completely taking away the motivation to run every event and place as well as possible each week. 178. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.14.2011 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RPM is no longer interested in Bowyer, it looks like he will go drive MWR's shitboxes. Seriously Clint, go crawling back to Richard right now. MWR is where talented drivers go for their careers to die. Does he not see Reut and Truex, two talented drivers, struggling just to stay relevant over in Mikey's pieces of shit? MWR is just like everything else Mikey has ever been a part of (racing, owning, broadcasting, being married, honoring a fallen friend), a lot of flash, attention and publicity, but no substance, and ultimately a failure. 179. Talon64 posted: 09.14.2011 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you still want to go with the entire field scoring points, at the very least, I'd want to see 21st-43rd or 26th-43rd scoring the same points as the IRL does it giving 12 points to 18th-24th and 10 points to 25th-33rd. That is at least a fairer way of . Give a nominal points value to people who start in the race, okay. But it should be so that it would take five or six mid-pack or worse finishes to equal one win...not two. This also solves another of the things that to me is unprofessional about NASCAR - people returning to the track many laps down. Get in a Talladega big one? Stay off the track rather than run around 50 laps down to gain two positions on the track... This would have also rendered the Carl Edwards punting Brad Keselowski into outer space at Atlanta moot. If Edwards did not have any incentive to BE on the track, there would have been no caution. I think it's kind of crazy that there was a huge gap between mid-pack and last AND a huge gap between last and missing the race. They at least fixed the latter with the current points system." Interesting idea; I've always liked Indycar's point system, not only for that but because of the big gap in points in the top 5 positions. That, plus a shorter season, is why their championship battles have been so great the past few seasons. Here's my stab at a new point system with that idea in mind: 1st: 51 2nd: 43(84% of a win, as little as 83% with MLL bp for winner) 3rd: 40 4th: 38 5th: 36 6th: 34 7th: 32 8th: 30 (58% of win, versus 60% for 5th in Indycar which is the equivalent finishing position between the series) 9th: 28 10th: 26 11th: 24 12th: 23 13th: 22 14th: 21 15th: 20 16th: 19 17th: 18 18th: 17 19th: 16 20th: 15 21st-32nd: 14 33rd-43rd: 13 and then if you DNQ the team still gets owner points, 12 for 44th, 11 for 45th and so on like the old NASCAR point system. More separation in the top 10 between positions, especially in the top 5 and for the win. 180. 18fan posted: 09.14.2011 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Still, if in 29 years from 1975-2003(From the first season the Latford system was used through the final year before the Chase), the Latford system only "got the championship wrong" 3 times(I think its twice because Earnhardt was slightly better than Wallace in '93, just Rusty's absolute domination of the short tracks and 1 mile tracks make him look better in the stats), that's basically once every 10 years that it got it wrong. I think that's pretty good. 181. Red posted: 09.14.2011 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Remember that race at Sears Point in 2003 when Matt lost the carcass of one of his tires only about 50 feet from pit road?" It's funny, that is exactly the moment I was thinking of from Kenseth's title run that inspired to write that post. The other was Matt finishing 9th in the second Michigan race with a 20th place car because a bunch of guys ran out of fuel in front of him. In Bobby's case, the fall Martinsville race where he spun out twice and still finished 10th is what sticks in my mind, along with him winning the Southern 500 without leading a single green flag lap. 182. Red posted: 09.14.2011 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Red, my response to you is what the King Richard Petty said, to be successful in NASCAR racing you have to be lucky and good." I agree with this statement. However, I believe an appropriate points system should strongly emphasize the "good", and minimize the effects of "lucky." 183. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.14.2011 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, I don't consider JJ's championships a joke because of the Chase. He and Chad Knaus may have adapted to the system quicker than others, but everyone knew what the rules were going to be when each season started." Agreed. I don't fault Jimmie nor the #48 team for their dominance as they have earned it by figuring out the system better than every other team. It's not like NASCAR came up to the drivers mid-season and said, "Guess what? The points are going to be reset after 26 races, leaving you guys to fight it out over the final 10!" "While he has won more than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009 Kurt was the only guy who was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase" I agree with Talon's post about what kind of person Kurt is 100%, but this statement is true too. Take the Hendrick cars away, Kurt's your 2009 champion. I do think Brad could be on his way to maybe having a season like that if he manages to keep up his momentum and carry it into seasons to come. "More than likely they are thinking about how many points they lost and how that could affect a season they've been working at for months" What happened in the first 26 races will no longer matter, it's now the final 10 that count. I seriously don't know why Kurt was so mad considering the incident hurt Jimmie's race much more than his. "I don't get the argument that the most consistent driver should ALWAYS win the championship. Why on earth should Bobby Allison have won the 1981 title over Darrell Waltrip when DW won 12 races and was ALMOST as consistent? Why should Mark Martin have won the 1990 title over Earnhardt when Earnhardt won 9 races and was ALMOST as consistent? And Terry Labonte's 1996 title was particularly ludicrous. He and Gordon had the same number of top 5s and top 10s and Gordon had EIGHT more wins. So Labonte was being rewarded by finishing 17th in his bad races while Gordon was being punished by finishing 37th in his. In almost EVERY other series's points system which accurately measures winning, Gordon would have had a runaway." I have on more than one occasion said that consistency is crucial towards winning a championship, especially if no one else can put up similar numbers despite more wins (i.e. Kenseth in 2002, Newman and Kurt Busch in 2003). But those years you mentioned, that opens up a whole new debate. I'll explain my stance on those years: 1981: DW definitely deserves the title as consistency and domination were on his side. Bobby was good, but DW was better that season. 1990: See 1981. Like DW, Dale had both consistency and domination on his side. Besides, Mark Martin had plenty of chances to win championships throughout his career but he was always too nice on the racetrack to close the deal. 1996: I respect the hell out of Texas Terry, but Gordon had a better year when you look at it. Jeff scored EIGHT more victories than Terry and had the same amount of top 5's and top 10's. Their seasons were identical in terms of consistency, but I definitely think Jeff had the better year because he won a lot more. Jeff also led over 2000 laps while Terry led a little bit over 950. The reason Terry edged him out was because Jeff's DNF races had worse finishes than Terry's DNF races, plus the fact that Jeff had 2 more DNF's than Terry. 184. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.14.2011 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Bowyer goes to MWR, I really will have to question his decision-making skills. They did seem to break through in 2009 and 2010, as they had respectable years. But they have regressed greatly this season, with Reut and Truex struggling most weeks. Truex has 8 top 10's this year and is 17th in points, but MWR hasn't shown great overall strength. If that is his only other option, he's not smart if he burns his bridge with RCR. 185. 18fan posted: 09.14.2011 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember Jeff Gordon was 43rd in points in 1996 after two races after a 42nd and 40th place finish yet led the points by 111 with four races to go until he had the engine problem at Charlotte. 186. myothercarisanM535i posted: 09.15.2011 - 3:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I doubt you will ever see NASCAR adopt a points system in Cup that cuts off after the top 20 positions. If they did, they'd have to abandon the goal of always having a 43 car field, or live with start & parks on an even larger scope that we've seen the last couple of seasons. They also would not want to put themselves in a position where a crowd favorite faces damage or mechanical problems early in the race, and the team doesn't have motivation to put the car back on the track, as in Mr X's examples." Perhaps something that could be considered is only awarding points to cars that finish the race. This is used in the V8 Supercar series - quite well IMO - and the 2010 title was actually decided in perhaps one of the most epic and intense manners I've ever seen specifically because of this rule. However, the attrition rate in NASCAR is quite high and it is unlikely that such a system would ever be adopted. 187. Dodge posted: 09.15.2011 - 8:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It sounds like the reason why Bowyer may end up leaving RCR is more sponsor driven. It has been reported that 5 Hour Energy will sponsor Bowyer but they only want about 18 races. There is also a rumor that he will replace Ragan in the 6 and Ragan would drive the 3rd RPM car. Only time will tell where he will end up. RCR said that if Bowyer leaves, more than likely, they will go back to a 3 car team. As for MWR, the ONLY talent they have is Truex. He is much better that Reutimann even though Reut has 2 wins compared to 1 for Truex, IMO. 188. Scott B posted: 09.15.2011 - 11:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gibbs should give Logano the boot and put Clint in the #20. I'd actually believe he shops at Home Depot. That won't really happen, but it'd be a good fit. 189. Dodge posted: 09.15.2011 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is a good idea Scott B. We heard for years before Logano turned 18 that he was the real deal. This will be his third full season at seasons end and he has 1 total win in Cup and that was a rain-shortened race win. Maybe JGR should consider putting Logano in a full season Nationwide Series. It appears that he may just be in over his head in the Cup Series. 190. Talon64 posted: 09.15.2011 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reutimann's problem is that he came into Cup too late; he was already 37 by the time that he moved up to Cup full time and now he's 41. Guys like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jeff Burton and Mark Martin have proven that drivers can still be successful in their 40's but I don't think Reutimann is really in their class. Still, he's done a hell of a job to win races for MWR and be the top guy there up until this year. 191. Cooper posted: 09.15.2011 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "188. Scott B posted: 09.15.11 - 11:05 am" "189. Dodge posted: 09.15.11 - 3:55 pm" I agree with both of you. Joey Logano has had the longest leash in sports. He's had plenty of time to prove himself and he still hasn't done it. Casey Atwood got the hook after one year when in reality he showed more than Joey did. The reason I compare the two is because both of them got rushed into the Cup Series way to soon. And if I'm Joey, I need to consider my own career as well. Do I really want to spend my next 5 years as the third wheel on a two wheel bike? Hopefully not. I actually find it funny that Joey is still driving the #20 car. When I went to the NASCAR race at Michigan, there was nobody(and I mean nobody) at his souvenir trailer!Complete ghost town. Which isn't surprising, since the target market for Home Depot is middle aged house owners not 20 year old video gamers. It doesn't work... 192. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.15.2011 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for MWR, the ONLY talent they have is Truex. He is much better that Reutimann even though Reut has 2 wins compared to 1 for Truex, IMO." I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Obviously we don't know if he could light it up on a good team (a team that doesn't field buckets of shit like MWR does), and we will probably never know. But I feel that he has overachieved big time in Cup. He has been a Top 15 driver for the past 4 years, and even got an outright win despite driving for MWR's cars which, in case I haven't mentioned this before, are pieces of shit. I agree with you guys about Logano. I mentioned this at length on his driver page, but things are obviously not working out one bit with him and JGR. And it is creating a ton of unhappiness. JGR can't be happy, Home Depot is openly unhappy (they very publically courted Carl), Zippy couldn't possibly be any unhappier. The only person happy about Joey being in the #20 car is Kyle Busch. With Joey in that car, and floundering, it has allowed Kyle over the past two year to, for the first time in his career, only have one teammate ahead of him in the final standings instead of two like has happened every year from '05 to '08. The last two years, only Denny has finished ahead of him. "When I went to the NASCAR race at Michigan, there was nobody(and I mean nobody) at his souvenir trailer!Complete ghost town. Which isn't surprising, since the target market for Home Depot is middle aged house owners not 20 year old video gamers. It doesn't work..." Exactly. I don't dislike Joey, but he is a hard guy to relate to. He is a rich kid from Connecticut that has had everything handed to him. The NASCAR audience can't relate, and the home improvement portion REALLY can't relate. You are right, it is just a horrible match. And nobody buys Home Depot Racing gear anymore. I've noticed the same thing at Martinsville. 193. Talon64 posted: 09.15.2011 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Check this out, I made a table with Excel of every Chase drivers' average finish at each of the Chase tracks and combined: http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n293/talon64/AZaRgeWCIAAQu2Ujpglarge.jpg The two most obvious things that you'd have already guessed is that Jimmie's really really good at the Chase tracks and that Talladega's going to be a crap shoot. The most interesting thing is that Kyle Busch has the 2nd worst combined average finish of anyone at the Chase tracks, 17.4 with Homestead and Kansas being places that he's really struggled at. And obviously Keselowski's last because of his early struggles at Penske, but I thought it'd be even worse than that to be honest. 194. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.15.2011 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW, it looks like the Menard spin at the end was ordered. 195. Talon64 posted: 09.15.2011 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon claimed it was, then Kevin Harvick said no and flung back that HMS was trying everything to keep Dale Jr. on the lead lap so he'd make the Chase. Then NASCAR said they haven't "seen or heard anything" that Menard intentionally brought out the caution. While RCR couldn't have predicted that Harvick would win the battle off pit road (or that Carl would be right on his bumper for the last few laps), Harvick really needed a fresh set of tires to take another stab at Gordon. So the reasoning is plenty plausible. 196. Clint Bowyer posted: 09.15.2011 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel like committing career suicide. 197. murb posted: 09.15.2011 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm definitely disappointed to see Clint Bowyer signing with MWR (most likely that is, several news outlets are reporting it). Clint's in my top 5 favorite drivers, and unfortunately, now he will most likely spend the next few years in the 13th-17th points range. And that's if he's really lucky, and doesn't have shit luck like Reutimann and Truex have had this year. I was hoping to see him go to RPM, because AJ has definitely been on an upswing lately, and Marcos has showed he can get it done for the most part. But I guess the racing business just happens that way some times... And as for the whole "Menard Spun Intentionally" theory, I'm sort of mixed. I've been a huge fan of RCR and a huge fan of Harvick for several years. So it's a little disappointing to see Kevin's win get a little overshadowed by that. But you have to remember, he had the best car all night, bar none. You can't argue with 202 of 400 laps led. And plus, he had to hold off Carl. So it wasn't like that last caution was the sole reason he won the race. It wasn't like that caution just caused him to back into it (kind of like he did at Charlotte.) So I believe it was a fair win, and those guys earned it. Of course, I am a 29 fan, and no one else on here is I don't think. So I'm totally prepared for any verbal lynching that I have coming my way just for that reason, lol But I'm sure several other guys would have been saying the same thing that Jeff did afterwards, so I definitely can't blame Jeff. 198. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.16.2011 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also respect the opinions of those who think David Reutimann isn't a good driver, but I too, disagree with them. I think Reutimann is a talented driver. He has won twice while driving for MWR (NOT an easy task mind you, although his Coke 600 win was as big of a fluke as flukes get). Remember, he flat out beat everyone else for his Chicago win last year. Sure, he's not been that great this year but he's shown flashes, such as finishing 2nd at Kentucky. And he was in the top 10 at Bristol I believe, when David Stremme decided to just wreck him for no reason. The truth is, I'm also very impressed with Truex this season. I honestly thought he would be outside the top 20 in points right now given how the early season went for him, but he's now 17th. But I must agree with everyone about Joey Logano. He had the early struggles due to inexperience and being rushed in '09, lucked into a rain-shortened victory at Loudon, turned around his performance to finish the year strong and started off '10 that way, seeming to be the sport's next young threat. But he has just bottomed out this year! Another problem for him is that he just comes off as this boring, rich kid who has never had to claw his ass off for anything, hence his boring personality. 199. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.16.2011 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the "Menard spun intentionally" theory, I'd like to think he did not, but recent actions by the RCR team have been quite immature (RC punching Kyle, Austin Dillon mocking Kyle's guitar smash), so the sad part is, it would be hard to defend them. 200. Mr X posted: 09.16.2011 - 2:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Clint Bowyer, you've had a long successful career and now its time for you to gracefully step away and retire... Oh wait, no you haven't, you should keep racing where you've been racing, RCR. In an off season RCR is still better then MWR is in a good season. This will go down as the worst decision of your now drastically shortened career. The only good that will come of this is that RCR will be back to being a 3 car team. I dont see why any team in NASCAR today wants to be a 4 car operation. With the exception of Roush Racing in 2005 no 4 or 5 car team has ever had all 4 or 5 cars running well, and equal to each other on a week by week basis. No team has ever managed the feat on a year by year basis. With a single car team, there isn't enough data being pulled in because of the lack of track time. A 2 car team can manage, but its difficult, Penske for example. A 3 car team is perfect because you have lots of track time between the 3 cars, lots of data. All the cars are built in the same shop, and its actually possible to get the personnel in place, not just from an engineering standpoint but to create chemistry aswell. A four car team is just too much, getting all the personnel in place, and getting four fleets of racecars to keep up with whats trending in the speed world is too difficult. Getting all the sponsorship in place, and keeping the drivers happy is borderline impossible. Ever since HMS became a four car team in 2002, every year there has been at least one car that was out to lunch, usually the 25/88. Roush has always had at least one weak link, and now that RCR is a four car team, Bowyer wants to leave because of a lack of performance, Burton is having the worst year of his career, and Harvick was more impressive last year. 201. Dodge posted: 09.16.2011 - 7:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I personally don't think Reutimann would ever make a Chase even if he would leave MWR. I will give you that he is a decent driver, just not one that can win multiple races in 1 year. Also, he does have a ton of bad luck. I may be wrong though. Plus, I think Reutimann may be too loyal to the Waltrip's. Remember, when Toyota went to the Truck Series, Darrell Waltrip gave him a full-time ride, before that, he was only running 5 or less Busch races a year. Then when Toyota moved to Cup, Michael hired Reut. Maybe instead of keep resigning with MWR, he should consider another team. Then, if he was impressive, I'd have to tuck my tail and admit I was wrong. 202. Anonymous posted: 09.16.2011 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm with Jeff Gordon, there is something fishy about the Menard radio chatter at the end of that race. Why switch to the private channel at all? There was no need. Even if his spin was unintentional, they were still talking about needing or not needing a caution, and Menard was planning on wrecking Kenseth as retaliation, depending when and if that caution would be most advantageous for Harvick. Even if it wasn't technically fixing the race, it still strongly looks like there was a small amount of conspiracy to fix the race. And Harvick's deflection of the question back on to Hendrick motorsports, rather than just radically denying it, didn't help his case. It was nothing more than just pointing fingers at someone else when all the fingers were being pointed at you. 203. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.16.2011 - 11:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is the audio from Menard's channel: http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Did-Menard-spin-on-orders-Listen-and-judge-for-?urn=nascar-wp3953 Sounds pretty damning to me. Them giving Paul constant updates and whether or not they need a caution. Paul even asked a time or two about needing a caution or not. All I can say is that is one of the cheapest and weakest things I have ever seen. I have no sympathy for HMS, they have done way worse stuff. But to have these team orders as Kevin clearly needed a caution since his short run setup was untouchable, that is weak. Sad to see what was once one of the proudest organizations reduced to this. 204. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.16.2011 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Dodge, you bring up a good point about his loyalty. David IS too loyal for his own good, much like Ward Burton was when he was with BDR. It started to bite Ward when BDR started going downhill. Reut better be careful or he could suffer the same fate. It remains unseen whether or not he could perform better with a better team, but I tend to believe he could. 205. 00andJoe posted: 09.16.2011 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chicago entry list update: T.J. Bell has withdrawn. "David IS too loyal for his own good, much like Ward Burton was when he was with BDR." Absolutely on both counts. The only good that came out of sticking with BDR for Ward was a Daytona 500 - which is admittedly a big "good", but he turned down -lots- of good rides from other teams (including an offer from RCR, my memory wants to say!) to stick with them. Loyalty can, and should, be admirable, but not to the point of career suicide. 206. Mr X posted: 09.16.2011 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just wish NASCAR wasn't afraid to park a driver for a week over bullshit like what Paul Menard did. Send him away for a week to think about what he did. Shame on Richard Childress and Paul for doing this, they were 80 laps down, make a pitstop, dont take advantage of NASCAR's need to throw a caution every time somebody sneezes. Pretty sad if a 35th place car can purposely effect the race. 207. Anonymous posted: 09.16.2011 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCR's cheating calls the legitimacy of this entire Chase into question. If Harvick finishes 3 points ahead of anyone, it's basically bullshit. If Jeff Gordon finishes 3 points behind anyone, we know it should have been different. But what can NASCAR do to penalize them if they find that they really did violate the rules? You can't park Harvick, and what's the point of parking Menard? I say just ban Childress from the track for the rest of the year and put Menards crew chief on probation. 208. myothercarisanM535i posted: 09.16.2011 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wholehearted believe that the Paul Menard caution was intentional. I have no doubt in my mind about it at all. 209. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.16.2011 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is pretty blatent to me. I agree with Mr X, NASCAR needs to send a message about team orders. For a car 80 laps down to change the outcome of a race intentionally is really cheap. And I am not a Gordon fan, and have no direct sympathy for him. But that was a chicken shit move and it needs to be punished. 210. Cooper posted: 09.16.2011 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Complete Bullshit. And the worst thing is no one has enough guts to admit it. At least when Dale Jr. intentionally spun out at Bristol (I believe it was 2004) he manned up and took the heat. It resulted in a 25 point penalty but at least he still had his dignity. I have absolutely zero respect for RCR. 211. Dodge posted: 09.16.2011 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Menard sucks and always have. Always will. His Brickyard 400 win was a fluke. Unfortunately with daddy Menard sponsoring him, he is in the sport for good and will not leave. Which sucks as there are drivers that deserve a good chance and Menard has it locked up because he is a driver that grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth. 212. Lugnut posted: 09.16.2011 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, jr didn't man up, he f**ked up and blabbed his mouth on the radio and got caught. Honestly, I don't think it was intentional. He was asking his CC if they need a caution with 60 laps left in the race. What the hell would that do to benefit harvick? His CC would then respond "no paul we don't need one" meaning don't wreck the 17 and cause a caution (cuz that would f**k up his teammate). Then Mike Dillon tells slugger to switch to channel 2 (Dillon says he wanted to talk to slugger about the car). No one ever told menard to switch to channel 2 and he never did. If anyone told menard to spin intentionally, it would have been heard on channel 1. But it wasn't. Plus, in the replay, you could see the back end come around aoff 4 and he was counter steering into the spin...but I guess he just did that to make it look good *sarcasm*. 213. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.17.2011 - 5:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you that stupid lugnut, or is English not your first language? If Slugger switches to channel 2, or course Paul does, because he NEEDS to be able to hear his crew chief. Also, Menard was still talking about "Do they need a caution?" 4 LAPS before he "spun." Cooper, Jr. also lost $100,000. 214. Lugnut posted: 09.17.2011 - 9:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) WRONG. HE doesn't need to hear his crew chief. Mike Dillon asked slugger to change to channel 2 because he wanted to talk to slugger and him only. Channel 2 is a digital signal, the driver to crew radio is an analog signal. NASCAR prohibits digitial communication involving the driver in the race. It was impossible for paul to go to channel 2 because the radio's the drivers use don't pick up digital signals. And, no Menard wasn't talking about them needing a caution 4 laps left, because another site had some of the transcript and he asked it 59 laps from the end. 215. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.17.2011 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Then how the hell is Paul going to know to come into the pits if he has no contact with the pits? And why would Mike Dillon absolutely have to talk to Sluuger this instant if Paul is 80 laps down; THERE IS NO REASON! For God's sake, Dillon is CLINT BOWYER's spotter. What would he want with Slugger; if anything, he would want to talk to Paul. You gotta help me here because I am electronically challenged. Why would a spotter need to talk to another guys crew chief? 216. Lugnut posted: 09.17.2011 - 11:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last I checked, Mike Dillon is the competition director at RCR. Paul is going to know when to come in the pits because before the CC changes channels, he will tell the driver anything he needs to do (they were good on fuel like everyone else so there was no need for Slugger to tell paul he needs to pit). Dillon said he wanted to talk to slugger about the car (assuming how messed up it was). The reason he told slugger to switch channels was because paul didn't need to listen to them talking on the radio while he was racing (and talking over the spotter which would be a bad thing). Either way, no one told paul over the radio to intentionally spin. If they did it would have been heard on the main channel (which is monitored). 217. Cooper posted: 09.17.2011 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "216. Lugnut posted: 09.17.11 - 11:34 am" You're right, no one told him to intentionally spin. But no one on here said that. The only evidence that we have is that Paul Menard and his crew kept mentioning whether or not "they" needed a caution. The thing is, I don't think a driver 70 laps down really gives a crap about needing a caution. These "words" were not directed at the #27 team but the #29 team. Paul and the #27 team kept talking about needing a caution not for themselves but for the #29 team. That's the way I took it as an outsider. Plus a driver 70 laps down will come to pit lane if the car is handling bad or if he has a tire going down because they simply have nothing to race for. Thing is, I'm glad it happened because my favorite driver gained three spots because of it and that's the only thing that matters. But I do feel bad for Jeff and his fans because I personally believe that they got hosed. Oh well. 218. Anonymous posted: 09.17.2011 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what really bugs me about this cheating business, is that this is the 2nd time in the past 3 races that we've had cheating affect the outcome of a race. First Keselowski cheats by speeding on pit lane at Bristol, then Menard/Harvick cheat by causing cautions at Richmond. And in both cases, Jeff Gordon is the one that gets screwed. At least Keselowski didn't get to use those stolen bonus points, because the standings would be even more of a sham than they already are. But Gordon better hope he doesn't lose the championship by 6 points, or he can look back to the pretty blatant bending of the rules that took place at Bristol and Richmond that cost him the title. 219. Scott B posted: 09.17.2011 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I took all the "don't need a caution" conversation as nothing more than code for the crew telling Menard not to go hunting for Kenseth... at that moment. So, guess who starts from the front row in Chicago? Kenseth and Menard. Since nobody needs a caution on lap one, hopefully they'll play nice. Also, Josh Wise qualified in the #37 for his first career Cup start. Don't blink or you may miss it. 220. the_man posted: 10.08.2011 - 10:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a fourth place finish: "I think there were four or five guys that could have won this race based on pit strategy and how the cautions fell. We weren't that great on the short runs; we really needed those 100 and 200 lap runs and I think we would have been just fine. Our UPS team did a great job tonight. We want to win every time we come to the race track, but certainly a top five is a great run for our team. We gained some points back from our previous bad luck and we'll move on." 221. Robert Nelson posted: 07.13.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points. Here's who would of made the Chase (Note who ISN'T in it) 1. Kyle Busch 246 2. Carl Edwards 207 (2nd driver to get 200 points) 3. Jeff Gordon 203 (3rd driver to get 200 points) 4. Jimmie Johnson 193 5. Matt Kenseth 159 6. Kevin Harvick 157 7. Brad Keselowski 140 8. Kurt Busch 120 9. Ryan Newman 116 10. Denny Hamlin 100 (10th driver to get 100 points) WC1. Marcos Ambrose (1 win) WC2. David Ragan (1 win) 222. Anonymous posted: 04.11.2014 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red Bull Cars sponsors 4/83 - Red Bull/Wawa 223. chevyfan98 posted: 11.10.2016 - 1:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yet another race in 2011 that if Edwards had finished just one spot better he'd have been the champion. He was running down Harvick in those last few laps. 224. Jason24 posted: 09.16.2020 - 10:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2013 version of this race gets alot of attention because of Spingate but this race was perhaps even more infamous overall. It was all captured by Showtime's "Inside NASCAR." -Dale Jr wrecked Travis Kvapil. -Marcos Ambrose and Brian Vickers had a handful of run-ins during the night. -Clint Bowyer turned David Reutimann in retaliation for earlier contact. -Perhaps the last major chapter in a heated rivalry between Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch. Kurt made incidental contact with the 48, and was spun by the 48 later in the evening as payback. Kurt would call Jimmie a "5 time chump" over his radio. Last but not least was the original Spingate. Some iffy late race radio chatter between Paul Menard and his team culminated in Paul spinning and bringing out a yellow. The caution allowed his teammate Kevin Harvick to take the win away from Jeff Gordon on the restart. While RCR wasn't as blatantly obvious as MWR would be two years later, it still looked somewhat suspect. It was, to say the least, one of the wilder races of the decade. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: