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  *Comments on the 2011 Wonderful Pistachios 400:*
  View the most recent comment <#224> | Post a comment <#post>


  1.   00andJoe posted:
  09.09.2011 - 10:52 pm
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T.J. Bell: the second coming of Randy MacDonald.


  2.   Mr X posted:
  09.09.2011 - 11:00 pm
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This comment I left as anonymous represents how I feel about Richmond,
I'm pretty positive I can already pick the winner of this race from JGR,
I really think the races at this track should be run on sunday afternoon
as opposed to saturday night, and here's why,

"I think this track could actually benifit from racing in the daytime, 6
of the last 7 races here, have been absolutely dominated and/or won by
Kyle Busch or Denny Hamlin, and the races haven't been as exciting, at
least from a tv standpoint. The track at night is just too much of a JGR
playground for me to really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers.

Last 7 Richmond Races:
May 2008: Run at night, Denny Hamlin leads 381 of first 382 laps, flat
tire takes him out, only 4 lead changes, Clint Bowyer wins.

Sept 2008: Run on sunday because of rain, no driver leads more the 104
of 400 laps, no clear favourite, 22 lead changes, Jimmie Johnson wins.

May 2009: Run at night, Busch and Hamlin combine to lead over half of
race, 21 lead changes, Kyle Busch wins.

Sept 2009: Run at night, Denny Hamlin leads 299 laps, only 4 drivers led
a lap, only 2 led more then 5 laps, Hamlin & Busch finish in top 5, 12
lead changes, Denny Hamlin wins.

May 2010: Run at night, KB leads over half the race, general lack of
excitement, 12 lead changes, Kyle Busch wins.

Sept 2010: Run at night, Denny leads 251 laps, Hamlin, Busch, Logano,
finish 1st, 2nd, & 4th, only 14 lead changes, 346 laps led across Hamlin
& Edwards, Denny Hamlin wins.

Apr 2011: Run at night, Kyle leads 235 laps, Denny leads 38, logano gets
wrecked, still finishes 11th, only gordon could keep up with JGR duo,
only 14 lead changes, Busch wins, Hamlin 2nd.

Despite how cool night racing is, I think Richmond could be better in
the day, and with a softer tire, I'm also tired of the JGR dominence, I
would like to have a race at richmond where I cant pick the winner out
of a single organization."

The spring race of 2007 was also run in the daytime, 24 lead changes,
nobody lead over 114 laps, lots of drivers seemed to have a shot to win.
JJ won, but in 2007 he won everything.

The fall race of 2007 was at night, and featured only 15 lead changes,
Jeff Gordon lead half the race, like the spring, JJ won the race.
However it was just overall less competitive then the spring race.

The trends just seem to point out that daytime races are more exciting
then night racing.

Just my opinion.


  3.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.09.2011 - 11:10 pm
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Great lap by Reutimann, here's to hoping he can score a good finish
tomorrow night. Seeing as he drives for MWR, I think a top 10 will be a
great accomplishment. As long as Swervin Stremme doesn't take him out again.

I'm REALLY hoping Jamie Mac can begin turning around his season. Other
than Burton, he has to be the biggest disappointment so far. After his
good season last year, I was hoping he would build forward on that and
better his career even more. I'm still holding out hope that he can
maybe grab a win before the year ends.

Not too bad qualifying results for Penske. They qualified 11th and 19th,
respectively. That's good enough to gain to get a good finish on.


  4.   18fan posted:
  09.09.2011 - 11:22 pm
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In the race that is supposed to set the field for the chase I like that
the pole sitter is 28th in points and the outside pole sitter is 25th in
points. There really isn't much excitement in this "race to the chase".
Brad knocking out Tony or Jr is the only real interest and that is an
unlikely scenario.


  5.   Anonymous posted:
  09.10.2011 - 12:01 am
   Rate this comment:      (1)      (1)

"This comment I left as anonymous represents how I feel about Richmond,
I'm pretty positive I can already pick the winner of this race from JGR,
I really think the races at this track should be run on sunday afternoon
as opposed to saturday night, and here's why,"

Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. You want to change a race that's been run at night
for 20 years just because one team that you don't like has been winning
the races there lately? Suck it up and stop being a baby. This is still
a driver's track, and maybe the other teams should figure out how to get
up to speed, rather than NASCAR changing around the schedule to
accommodate their failures. The loop data proves that there is plenty of
passing, but it has been behind Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch because they
are just good at this track. I repeat, this is a driver's track, one
particular team can't jump out to a huge advantage with the car, because
it will always be more about the driver. If you haven't noticed, Hamlin
and Busch are also two of the best at Martinsville and Bristol
respectively. Because they are great short track drivers.

So your whole idea of switching this around to a day race just because
you don't like the winners is just sad to me. And I guarantee,
*absolutely* guarantee you wouldn't be saying this if drivers you liked
were winning the races there. That's where your argument would fall
apart. My suggestion: grow up.


  6.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 12:47 am
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Kyle Busch had top 5 finishes in his first 5 races at Richmond with
Hendrick, including two races he very easily could have won.


  7.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 12:53 am
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If it were run during the day it could be more of a drivers track, and
if it were up to me the only night races would be the July race in
Daytona and the Bristol night race. Day racing is better regardless of
where you go. More slipping and sliding.

It's pretty obvious that the car does have something to do with it
because, at least at Martinsville and Bristol other cars can keep up,
not to mention the Half-mile paper clip, despite being only flat a
single groove track, has put on much better races of late, in the last 4
races at Martinsville, 100 lead changes, last 4 at Richmond 52, the loop
data on average supports more passing at Martinsville then Richmond, and
more passing at Richmond during the day then at night, the "Action Track
could be better then it is if it were run on sunday afternoon. The
sunday races at Richmond are 2 for 2 in producing good competition and
excitement, meanwhile the night racing isn't as good as it has been.

If NASCAR focused more attention on making sure that every race was run
under the most competitive conditions possible instead of becoming an
equal oppertunity series, with charity rules packages where anyone can
win anything at anytime, we would have a much better racing series.


  8.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 1:01 am
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I like day racing a lot more than night racing and when you put the
combination of a warm day race with soft tires and an "old
surface"(which now basically means not repaved in the last 5 years) that
usually means a really good race.


  9.   Anonymous posted:
  09.10.2011 - 1:43 am
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"If NASCAR focused more attention on making sure that every race was run
under the most competitive conditions possible instead of becoming an
equal oppertunity series, with charity rules packages where anyone can
win anything at anytime, we would have a much better racing series."

Am I the only one who finds this statement hilariously ironic, given
that this is the same guy complaining about the Gibbs cars having an
advantage? It's like you contradict yourself within your own sentence.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.


  10.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 6:20 am
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"Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. You want to change a race that's been run at
night for 20 years just because one team that you don't like has been
winning the races there lately? Suck it up and stop being a baby. This
is still a driver's track, and maybe the other teams should figure out
how to get up to speed, rather than NASCAR changing around the schedule
to accommodate their failures. The loop data proves that there is plenty
of passing, but it has been behind Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch because
they are just good at this track. I repeat, this is a driver's track,
one particular team can't jump out to a huge advantage with the car,
because it will always be more about the driver. If you haven't noticed,
Hamlin and Busch are also two of the best at Martinsville and Bristol
respectively. Because they are great short track drivers.

So your whole idea of switching this around to a day race just because
you don't like the winners is just sad to me. And I guarantee,
*absolutely* guarantee you wouldn't be saying this if drivers you liked
were winning the races there. That's where your argument would fall
apart. My suggestion: grow up."

If you can't make a pigheaded comment like that without typing in your
username, then don't do it; you probably don't mean it and are looking
for a fight. I understand people's points. Look over the years, and you
will find that the night races really are less competitive and are
usually decided by bump-and-run on a restart cause the leader is
otherwise 8 seconds ahead, or in the pits because the better car can't
pass (see Richmond Spring 2006 and Fall 2007). To make such comment's
anonymously means you know what you are saying is a jackwagon move and
you don't the other, braver people to crucify your comments for the next
3 weeks.


  11.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:43 am
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The day races at Richmond have seen the groove widen out within one
groove of the wall. The 08 Richmond race was one of the best races COT
races. And he wasn't complaining about JGRs dominance, he was just
accurately pointing out that, with limited track changes that go along
with a night race, if one team finds something, which JGR has at this
track, they are basically unbeatable. He used fact based analysis to
prove day racing is better, and showed that we pretty much tell who will
win this one. I don't see why it is so controversial.

Although I am pretty sure a JGR car will win this one, did you guys see
the 24 and 48 in practice? I think the cha$e will be a repeat of 2007.
With an added twist. In '07 they were in the same shop. Now they are in
different shops. Gordon has Mark as a teammate to bounce info and ideas
off of. JJ has June. I think that disparity in shopmates will make up
for the experience the 48 has as a group. JJ is still my pick, but it
should be close. I think, as one hell of a mindgame, in the remaining
races where Jeff has DuPont as his primary sponsor, he should show up
unannounced in the old rainbow paint scheme.


  12.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:16 am
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Seeing the rainbow paint scheme for Jeff would be so cool to see.


  13.   Cooper posted:
  09.10.2011 - 12:35 pm
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If they busted out the rainbow paint scheme....My God. I'd be scared
shitless. Game Over. That'd be hilarious and that would be some great
marketing.

Never in a million years though.


  14.   Anonymous posted:
  09.10.2011 - 1:40 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

"He used fact based analysis to prove day racing is better, and showed
that we pretty much tell who will win this one. I don't see why it is so
controversial."

Oh sure, he tried to make some points. But you guys are acting like this
is suddenly a one groove track where the cars run single file and you
can't pass. And that's just disingenuous. The part I don't care for, and
which no one else seems to notice, is when he said this:

"The track at night is just too much of a JGR playground for me to
really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers."

I think that sums up everything I need to know about his argument. He
wouldn't have felt the need to come up with any of this, if it weren't
for the JGR cars. If this was just a normal race, nothing. I highly
doubt he's been saying for 20 years, ever since they switched this to a
night race, "NASCAR should have never made this a night race.
Boooooooooo! The racing stinks at night! Booooooooo!". Nope, this is a
recent complaint, brought on by JGR domination. And that's why he's a
tool, and you're a tool too if you all of a sudden think this race
should be a day race. "Competitive balance" my a$$. If you truly cared
about competitive balance, you'd need to switch around 75% of the races
on the schedule to different tracks, and run almost all of them at
different times of day. And if you really want that, watch a different
series.

I hope a JGR car doesn't win tonight, just to show you all how
ridiculous this bulls*** argument really is.


  15.   Baker posted:
  09.10.2011 - 2:06 pm
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I'm actually pulling for Jeff Gordon to win this race because that would
give him 9 points up on JJ to start the chase and he'll need it. Kyle
Busch would obviously be up 12, but I don't see him running smooth
enough to win the title and I'm pulling for anyone but JJ at this point.


  16.   Kinetic posted:
  09.10.2011 - 4:32 pm
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"The track at night is just too much of a JGR playground for me to
really enjoy because of toyota and crybaby drivers."

Your argument loses all credibility with this comment. The JGR drivers
would perform just fine if it was a day race.


  17.   00andJoe posted:
  09.10.2011 - 5:51 pm
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Since I haven't seen it mentioned in the race discussions yet:
congratulations Andy Lally, 2011 Sprint Cup Series Rookie-of-the-Year.
(Both Keselowski and Bell can no longer meet the minumum-number-of-races
requirement.)


  18.   Schroeder51 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:02 pm
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Huh-what do you know. Junior IS in an early wreck.


  19.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:04 pm
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That is what you call a clusterf***. For perhaps the first time ever, it
looks like TV is assigning unfair blame to June. Looks like he was
shoved into the wreck, plus Bowyer tried to pull back into traffic from
a dead standstill.


  20.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:19 pm
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Never mind. ESPN makes up for it by assigning absolutely zero blame to
June for dumping Ambrose.


  21.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:20 pm
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Half of the laps have been under caution so far. I don't know what Jaime
was thinking on the restart when Jimmie passed him on the outside
because Jaime took the lead from Reutimann on the first lap.


  22.   Schroeder51 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:25 pm
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What a crash fest so far.


  23.   Schroeder51 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:27 pm
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Hah! Brian Vickers just got parked.


  24.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:27 pm
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How about Brian Vickers' payback? Not surprising that he got parked for
that though.


  25.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:28 pm
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You cant deny that the fall race in '08 and the spring race in '07 were
absolutely fantastic, up there with being the best races of the '07 and
'08 seasons because they werent dominated by any driver, the races were
extremely competitive, far more then any recent night races. I left that
first comment about a month ago on the Richmond International Speedway
page. I probably shouldn't have said it the way I did. I want the JGR
drivers to be competitive and they would be in a day race, but the
recent races have been Kyle & Denny swapping the lead all night as they
lap the field with an occasional apperance by Jeff Gordon. There is no
other track that is so dominated by a team as bad as the last 7 night
races at Richmond, they've 1648 laps of 2810 in the night races, and won
5 of the 7, not to mention if it weren't for a flat tire in April 2008
Denny likely would've lead 399 of 400, won the 6th race of 7, and the
only 2 lead changes would've happened under caution. The JGR dominance
has pointed this out, and I don't particularly like them, but I
legitimately believe that Richmond would produce more competitive,
exicting racing on sunday afternoon, as would almost all racetracks.

They're racing with their heads up their asses tonight.

DSFF, June took some blame himself at least.


  26.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:29 pm
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Nice to see Richmond covering for Bristol by giving us our night of chaos.


  27.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:43 pm
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ESPN starts telling us how great Bowyer is when really it's all the
damage he has. Brad Daughtery also told us how Harvick is pulling away
from Kenseth when Kenseth's on older tires and tires mean something
tonight for once.


  28.   Rusty posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:48 pm
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I was just about to say DSFF, looks like Richmond is the new Bristol.


  29.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 8:49 pm
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Dale Jr thinks he has a broken axle, thank god Andy's in the booth to
point out that he obviouly hasn't.


  30.   Schroeder51 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:04 pm
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They let Vickers back on the track...?

I'm confused. I thought when they parked you it meant you were done for
the race.


  31.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:11 pm
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Yeah ESPN, it is SO unusual seeing Kenseth in a yellow car. I can't ever
remember him being in a yellow car.


  32.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:13 pm
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DSFF, Totally, he only drove a yellow car for 10 years. It was Vince
Welch after all, and he is a total idiot.

Junior pays back Kvapil and therefore doesn't get the free pass.


  33.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:25 pm
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Apparently Matt Kenseth's DeWalt Power Tools car wasn't yellow for the
10 seasons between 2000 and 2009. And is it really necessary for a
single car spin to bring out a caution when he got going immediately and
landed on the appron of the frontstretch, even if Dale Jr gets the
welfare cheque?

9th caution, not even half way. Unbelievable.


  34.   LordLowe posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:36 pm
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48 IN THE WALL YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


  35.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:37 pm
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Go Kurt, way to take out Jimmie. Montoya got significant damage too,
sucks for him because he was having a great run.


  36.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:43 pm
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Got a feeling Kurt will regret that.


  37.   joey2448 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:49 pm
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Totally saw the 22/48 incident coming. Rivalry renewed...

Great action thus far!


  38.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:55 pm
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Fresh tires are a factor tonight. I like that.


  39.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 9:59 pm
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DSFF did your crystal ball tell you that


  40.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:03 pm
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Kurt still is on top because he basically killed Jimmie's night and
Jimmie actually ruined his own race more than Kurt's when Jimmie
retaliated.


  41.   Schroeder51 posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:08 pm
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How about Stephen Leicht?


  42.   Stephen Leicht Needs A Ride posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:10 pm
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See my name.


  43.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:12 pm
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Well JJ, I don't know if you feel embarrassed, but you should. Don't
know why Kurt was mad, he should have just laughed it off.

GIVE STEVE LEIGHT A RIDE!!!!!!!


  44.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.10.2011 - 10:28 pm
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AND TEACH ME HOW TO SPELL "LEICHT"!!!!


  45.   Mr X posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:14 pm
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Good job Goodyear,

Bob Osbourne was about 2 laps from the dumbest call of the year award.

I still wonder what happened to Paul Menard that a caution needed to
come out, he spun, landed in the grass, and got going. NA$CAR wanted a
finish I guess.


  46.   Anonymous posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:15 pm
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"I still wonder what happened to Paul Menard that a caution needed to
come out, he spun, landed in the grass, and got going. NA$CAR wanted a
finish I guess."

Did you not see the #88 get the free pass with that? Sad, isn't it?


  47.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:20 pm
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At least Kevin was the best car tonight compared to his other 3 wins
this year. Carl got lucky with that Paul Menard caution, but so did
Kevin. Before that caution, I was thinking that it was going to be a
classic Jeff Gordon win, but it wasn't meant to be. Kyle Busch had one
of the best drives of the night but the Menard caution cost him a top 5
finish, plus just not having a good short run car. Solid comeback though
for the 18 team, should be a positive going into the chase.


  48.   Ryan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:23 pm
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Kurt is right, Jimmie has had the best stuff the last five years
(actually eight years) and his crew chief is the biggest cheater in the
sport. You equal good stuff with cheating and you get championships.

Jimmie has been able to avoid big heated rivalry the last few years, and
now that he has one it will be interesting to see how he does in the
Chase. You could tell in his interview that he is bothered and he has
never had to face that.

Could it be that Harvick was testing all summer???


  49.   00andJoe posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:23 pm
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#30: They parked Vickers for a number of laps (equivilant to sitting in
your pit box with the NASCR official holding up his hand at you).

Apparently Kurt Busch is Superman's Kryptonite...

Way to go Steven Leicht!

And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero.


  50.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:24 pm
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NASCAR was very quick with the caution flag a couple times.


  51.   Rusty posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:24 pm
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Dale Jr. should be embarassed to back into the Chase the way he did, he
hasn't had a good race in like 13 weeks.


  52.   . posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:48 pm
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"NASCAR was very quick with the caution flag a couple times."

Except with the 2nd Landon Cassill spin.


  53.   18fan posted:
  09.10.2011 - 11:51 pm
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The Landon Cassill spin was why I said a couple times that they were
quick with the yellow, not every time.


  54.   DaleJrFan20 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:02 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Post #26 says it all. Though I don't think it'll end up like this in the
long run. Pretty good race overall. Nice to see the whole Jimmie-Kurt
rivalry heat up again. And now...Chase Time!


  55.   irony posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:12 am
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Stephen Leicht passed Gordon, Stewart, Logano, and Kenseth at points
during the race. Too bad he didn't get the finish because of a bad pit call.

Bowyer looked bad tonight after his comments about Montoya last week
(about a wreck that was his own fault). The 2nd contact with Reut was
questionable.

JJ hasn't been JJ lately. Don't think he is the Chase favorite.


  56.   AlmirolaFan88 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:15 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Random fact: This is only the second time Scott Speed has finished 43rd
in his entire career.

Both Tommy Baldwin cars had a solid night, not just Stephen Leicht. They
have a decent short track program. Just got to keep working on
everything else and soon TBR could reach victory lane, just like
Furniture Row Racing did this season.

Casey Mears picks up his best finish since joining the #13 team.


  57.   BON GORDON posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:21 am
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UGH!!!!! Flashbacks of 2010 for Jeff Gordon and his fans. He just wasnt
good on restarts and he was on the outside as well. Harvick had the best
car but Gordon was good on long runs. Had there not been a caution Mr.
Gordon probably wouldve won. Oh well i guess. On to Chicagoland.


  58.   Anonymous posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:22 am
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Boooooooo! This race should be run at day time! It's not exciting
enough! It's not competitive enough! JGR cars always dominate!

Sorry, just reminding those complaining earlier in the thread of how
ridiculous and whiny their argument was. Or was this race not good
enough for you?

The true irony is that the same people that complain about the new
Bristol being too much of a multi-lane track, were the same ones
suggesting this mostly one-groove track with lots of bumping should be
run at day because the tires would be better for competitive balance.
But I guess you gotta complain about something, this is NASCAR after all!


  59.   Smokefan05 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:25 am
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"And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero."

Agree 100%.


  60.   00andJoe posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:27 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

#18 sponsor: 9-11 Never Forget
#42 sponsor: Target/Clorox
#32 sponsor: H&B Railroad/Safe Skies Luggage Locks
#87 sponsor: AM FM Energy/Pellet & Wood Stoves


  61.   bduddy posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:29 am
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Admin guy, are you going to keep posting the "non-Chase" standings like
before? I guess you can't call them "Classic" anymore, but it would
still be nice to know...


  62.   GDR posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:35 am
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to 18fan, the only race Kevin won where he wasn't the best car at the
end was Charlotte. Maybe Kyle was a little better at Martinsville, but
Kevin drove from 20 something at one point to third prior to the last
start and then passed the 42, 18, and 88 after that. At California he
had the best car at the end, passing the 18 and 48 to win.

But yes, it was nice this one wasn't a where did he come from. That gets
old.


  63.   Patrick posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:42 am
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a wild night.


  64.   Nick posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:42 am
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As a Gordon fan, I'm a bit peeved at Menard... lol... Indy and now
Richmond were 2 potential wins... oh well.... at least he is beginning
to run top 5 more consistently.


  65.   RLB posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:43 am
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Wow

Harvick's teammate spin's out to bring out a very timely caution and
cost Gordon(who worked his ass off to get the lead)and give Harvick the win.

yaaaaaa!


  66.   Ryan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:43 am
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"And I have no respect for anybody who writes "NA$CAR". Zero."

Agree 100%.


I disagree with the comment made about "NA$CAR" tonight, but you people
are blind or naive if you don't think Nascar is about the money. They
always have and they always will.


  67.   18fan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:50 am
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GDR, I meant the first win where he was up there and a car to beat all
night, since he led 202 laps tonight and 130 laps the first 25 laps. I
watched that race in person at Fontana and he drove his ass of to win
that one, and Martinsville he was the best car on the last two runs, but
not the whole day. Charlotte was one of the luckiest wins I have ever
seen. At least the ESPN guys don't go absolutely overboard about how
Kevin is "The Closer" and "Mr. Where Did He Come From". That gets so old
its not even funny.


  68.   00andJoe posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:55 am
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#7 status: handling


  69.   SoxFan24 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 1:09 am
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Good god, JR was into everything and everybody during the race. Reminds
me of the 2000 cup race in Martinsville when he hit everything AND the
tow truck

The last caution cost Gordon no doubt. He was pulling away from Harvick.
The 29 had a better pit stop and thats what won them the race. Gordon
was way better on long runs.

Don't understand why Vickers was parked like he was and Johnson who
blatantly hit Kurt Busch wasn't. Guess 5 time doesn't get parked eh?


  70.   Mr X posted:
  09.11.2011 - 1:28 am
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It was a much different race then I originally thought it would be,
mostly because Goodyear brought a much softer tire then in previous
Richmond races. Just a shame that NASCAR showed blatent favouritism,
Landon Cassill had the exact same spin twice, and got a caution once,
Dale Jr was the benificiary, Paul Menard's lazy spin in the grass got an
unnecessary caution, again Dale Jr was the benificiary, we had 15
cautions, at least 2 or 3 weren't necessary, the ones that Dale Jr got
the free pass during.

They drove like an 8 year old in Grand Theft Auto tonight, its been a
while since we've had a race where the longest green flag run was 71 laps.

Thank god David Ragan didn't make the Chase, he wouldn't have contended
but still he had no place being in it, or even having a shot at being in it.

Kevin Harvick dominated a race!! He led 202 laps, the 2nd most amount of
laps ever in his 18 wins, 252 at Phoenix in November 2006 is the most
for a win. This is also the 3rd most laps he's ever led in an race 272
at Richmond in April 2006 is the most, he finished third.

I also enjoyed it when ESPN said that Dale Jr did everything he had to
do to make the Chase. He only crashed the car about 2 times, and then
his team and unnecessary cautions did the rest. Good thing for him that
Brad finished 12th.
He should've been about 30th, 5-10 laps down.

Its also going to be extremely disappointing if this website stops
showing the good old Classic points standings, the only way the points
system should've ever been.


  71.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.11.2011 - 1:49 am
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It's a rare sight nowadays to see Kevin Harvick dominate and win a race
like this. He definitely deserved the win, but I was pulling SO hard for
Gordon to stay in front of him until Paul Menard spun, bringing out the
final caution. When the 29 beat the 24 off pit road... that's all she wrote.

Brad has a great top 5 run going until he gets jumbled back in the
running order, then he and Kenseth make contact in one of those racing
deals coming off Turn 2. It seemed his race kind of went downward after
that, although he made a nice recovery on the final restart, coming from
15th to finish 12th.

I was hoping for McMurray and Reutimann to have good nights tonight, but
the best either one of them could do was 14th (JMac). Reut finished a
lap down in 26th.

Let's see. Kurt spins Jimmie, then Jimmie comes back and drives in the
corner TEN times as deep as anyone else just to wreck Kurt and ends up
spinning himself too. I gotta say, I knew JJ would retaliate if given
the chance but I would have forseen him being more calm about it.


  72.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.11.2011 - 1:53 am
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And yes, give Stephen Leicht a shot! The guy has impressed me plenty of
times despite not making very many starts on NASCAR's top stage.


  73.   dirtfan9628 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:11 am
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Considering that Keselowski has scored the most points since Indy 7
races ago, and has the most wins during that stretch, I think it's safe
to say that if he doesn't win the championship, it will be one of the
biggest chokes in NASCAR history. You can even go back to Kansas, and
see that for nearly half the season now, Keselowski has scored enough
points to be a top-3 driver.

That's how this works, right? If a driver has a good stretch of races
and more wins than all but two of the other drivers, they are locks to
win the title, and if they don't it's a choke? Hold on, I need to
consult my, "DaleSrFanForever Guide to Chokes: How to Make A Driver You
Don't Like Appear Worse Than They Actually Are".

Ok, let's see..... yes it's here. Page 41, paragraph 7:

"If a driver that you don't like gets on a hot streak, and especially if
that hot streak coincides with multiple race wins just before the Chase,
it is therefore acceptable to overstate that driver's potential, in
which case you can say, 'I told you so!' if said driver wins
championship, or, 'they are chokers! HAHA!' if said driver does not win
championship. And because of this attitude, you will be correct either
way, and can continue to lord your superior NASCAR knowledge and
condescending attitude over other fans."

Yep, looks like Keselowski is either going to win the whole thing, or
choke, and choke hard. No in between now, with the way he's been
running. I haven't run the exact numbers, but it's possible that he's
scored more points than anyone since Kansas. Anyone want to try to
confirm this? Either way, man, if he doesn't win the title it's going to
be one colossal choke. He's got the best car right now, and he's super
talented. It certainly wouldn't bother me if he won the title over
Johnson, but if he doesn't I guarantee you I won't let it slide for
years and years.


  74.   URRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:18 am
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"Did you not see the #88 get the free pass with that? Sad, isn't it?"

YES THE CAUTION WAS THROWN FOR JR
URRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

get a clue.


  75.   AlmirolaFan88 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:22 am
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Does NASCAR still give out a $1 Million payout to the highest finishing
driver outside the Chase? Despite being quiet & under the radar all
season, AJ Almendinger has a good chance to take that, and finish off
the best season of his career.


  76.   murb posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:40 am
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Congrats to Kevin and the 29 team.

I think this is going to be a really interesting Chase. You've got guys
like Gordon and Keselowski who have tons of momentum going in. You've
got Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch's feud reignited. And then of course
you have guys like Jr, Stewart, and Hamlin, who I think will be
interesting to watch in this thing. Those three have had to worry about
just making it in, instead of just gunning for wins like all the others,
so maybe they will start showing their stuff. And the 29 seems to have
their speed back, so they also might be a threat. So there's lots of
great story lines going into this deal.

Hell of a run by Steven Leicht in the 36 car. I think it would be cool
to see him be kind of like this generation's Mark Martin. Mark came back
to Nascar in the late '80s after struggling earlier in his career, and
of course we all know how the rest of his career has been. So it would
be cool to Steven come back and land a good ride and have success after
being away for a couple years.

I think Steven has always had talent. He ran really well in the Busch
Series for a declining Robert Yates team, and also had some good runs
for Richard Childress in that series. It seems like Tommy Baldwin is
running more and more races with two cars, so hopefully they can get
some more funding and have Blaney and Leicht full time in 2012.


  77.   JP88 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:41 am
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Damn what a crazy race, I thought for sure something would hapen to Jr.
and after 3 laps I was right...thankfully his radiator didn't go or else
I would of chucked the remote.

And boy Kasey Kahne can not catch a break, I wonder if he could leave
early and maybe run a 5th hendrick car for the last 5 races or something.

Awesome runs by Leicht, Blaney and Mears. Stephen was in the top-10 for
a little while and I'm not sure what happened on that restart


  78.   RLB posted:
  09.11.2011 - 2:46 am
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I hope all these phony excuses to throw a caution and steal wins from
Gordon comes back to give him a .500 win% in the chase,at least.


  79.   Anonymous posted:
  09.11.2011 - 3:00 am
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"The Chase starts with the most bizarre press conference ever

By Jay Busbee

The Chase starts with the most bizarre press conference everMost of the
time, press conferences are insanely dull affairs, with routine
questions and routine answers and very little in the way of life and
liveliness.

Most of the time.

As the clock ticked past midnight, NASCAR's twelve Chase drivers entered
Richmond's media center in packs, each group upping the ante on the
next. There was tension, drama, humor, the threat of violence and enough
storylines to kick the Chase into orbit.

Want to know how weird this press conference was? The funniest guy in
the room was Matt Kenseth. And no, that's not sarcasm. Settle in, folks:

- The event began with Brad Keselowski, Carl Edwards and Dale Earnhardt
Jr. sharing a stage, all looking relieved at Richmond being over.
Edwards was frustrated at losing the win, yes, but he had the only
traditional driver response of the night. When Edwards was asked why he
didn't pit late in the race, Keselowski chimed in, "Yeah, Carl. Why
didn't you?" To which Edwards laughingly replied, "Screw you, Brad."

- From there, Edwards and Keselowski wandered into a bizarre discussion
about crayons and the little sharpeners in the back of the boxes. It's true.

- When asked about what would have happened had he failed to make the
Chase, a clearly happy Earnhardt replied, "Well, I'd have a lot less to
do over the next 10 weeks. That's about all, I guess."

- Then came Jeff Gordon and Denny Hamlin, who were straightforward and,
in Hamlin's case, nearly exhausted with delirious relief. But Gordon did
offer up a hint of a conspiracy theory: "To know with 20 laps to go
you're driving away with the lead, I was feeling pretty good about that.
I didn't want to see a caution. I thought it was interesting when I saw
a Childress car sitting down this in the grass," Gordon said, referring
to Paul Menard's late spin that let Childress teammate Kevin Harvick
take the lead and, eventually, the win.

- Harvick arrived next, and crew chief Gil Martin hinted at the kind of
inspirational figure Harvick is behind closed doors: "He's always smiles
at the race track," Martin said. "A Sunday-morning meeting, it'll snap
you out of a lot of things. You can jump over Godzilla after you have a
meeting with him."

- Oh, but all of that was just a prelude to the main event. Kurt Busch
entered the media center and immediately walked over to confront a
reporter for whom he'd had harsh words earlier in the evening. Busch
raised his voice to the reporter, and appeared on the verge of stepping
to him, when the rest of the drivers arrived and assembled at the
podium. Jimmie Johnson was the last to arrive, and very deliberately
took a seat at the far end of the table from Busch.

- So there they were, Kurt seething, Tony Stewart virtually daring the
media to ask him a question after his rant on Friday, Johnson clearly
restraining himself. In the middle of the pack, Kyle Busch and Ryan
Newman wore bemused smiles, happy to see everything playing out around
them. The tension in the room was at visible levels.

- Matt Kenseth showed up just a bit late, and since the three-man table
already had five drivers crowded around it, he simply walked up on the
podium and sat on Johnson's knee for a moment. Then he stepped aside to
take his questions last, which turned out to be a good thing.

- Stewart, for his part, was restrained and answered his questions
without added commentary. When AP reporter Jenna Fryer began a question
to Johnson by noting that Kurt Busch had said he was "in [Johnson's]
head," Busch stepped in to say, "I didn't say that tonight. Did not."

Thing is, he did. It was broadcast live on ESPN, and the transcript
showed the quote clearly. And then Busch crossed a line. When Fryer
showed him the transcript, Busch took the transcript from her hands,
ripped it in half, deposited it back on her desk, and stormed out of the
room. It was a stunning lack of respect and professionalism on Busch's part.

- So it fell to Matt Kenseth to take the tension out of the room, and he
did so with the kind of dry wit that's become his trademark on Twitter.
Landmark Newspapers' Dustin Long asked him about his results coming into
the Chase (no finish higher than fifth), and replied, "I thought I was
better than that." Long then held up the results notebook and asked if
Kenseth wanted to rip it up; Kenseth just smiled at the idea.

- After a few more questions, particularly one about Gordon's allegation
of "teamwork" with that last caution and whether drivers discuss such
matters, Kenseth laughed. "They all stay locked in their motor coaches.
There's no talk ... Nah, that's not true, we all gather on the
playground and have stroller races."

The laughter was long and loud and relieved. And as Kenseth left, he
smirked and said, "Thank you, guys. You're doing a fine job." And
everyone let the sarcasm ride, a perfect ending to one of the most
bizarre press conferences in recent NASCAR history."

Someone tell me there is video of this entire thing on the internet
somewhere! I like Kenseth more after reading this, and Kurt Busch less.


  80.   Bronco posted:
  09.11.2011 - 3:04 am
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"Does NASCAR still give out a $1 Million payout to the highest finishing
driver outside the Chase?"

No, that only existed in the 10 man chase format from 2004-2006. Once
they expanded it to twelve drivers, they even stopped recognizing 11th
and 12th place.

Dale Jr's finish wasn't pretty, but he deserved to make the chase after
hanging on to that beaten up car all night long. Even with a beaten up
car, he finished better than he ever did in the Lance NoClue era. Last
year he was 6 laps down without any crash or mechanical damage.

He also got three lucky dogs, and would have gotten a fourth had he not
spun Travis Kvapil. That has to be close to some kind of record.

Scary thought - if had Brad had finished in the top 10 and bumped out
Stewart or Jr, then Ragan would have made the chase from a 19th place
points position.

Harvick finally dominates a race rather than just stealing it at the
end. The first truly "dominant" win for him since Phoenix 2006.

David Reutimann's first pole since Dover in May 2009.



  81.   Hal posted:
  09.11.2011 - 3:38 am
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"Harvick finally dominates a race rather than just stealing it at the
end. The first truly "dominant" win for him since Phoenix 2006."

And yet, there is no mention of his ridiculously inappropriate nickname,
"The Closer", despite this being his first win in a long time that is
actually fitting. I guess people still don't understand what "closing"
means.

He still wasn't the best car at the end though. Edwards would have
passed him with a few more laps, and Gordon probably had the best car.
Harvick just benefited from that final caution more than most.


  82.   Josh C posted:
  09.11.2011 - 3:38 am
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Im finally glad that Kurt put Johnson's ass into the fence. I've been
waiting for it for a long time and now finally it happened. Funnier yet,
JJ wrecking himself trying for revenge and screws his car up ever more
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah...oh man my
gut hurts from laughter. Whats even funnier still is Kurt didn't lose a
single spot on the track
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...oh man I might pop an
artery. I gotsta breath for a sec here. What would have put the topping
on the cake is if Kurt won and dedicated the race to the 48 team and all
the employees of Blowes...er sorry Lowes!


  83.   Matt G posted:
  09.11.2011 - 4:33 am
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Since it has not been mentioned so far I think it needs to be brought
up. Bob Osborne cost Carl Edwards this race and could have completely
ruined that team's night. The decision not to pit with 87 laps to go
BOGGLED MY MIND!!! Had Paul Menard not spun with 15 laps left, Edwards
would have been forced to pit, lost a lap, and finished somewhere in the
neighborhood of 25th despite having the best car for the last 75% of the
evening. WHAT A DISGRACE!!!

When it comes to pit strategy, there are few, if any Crew Chiefs as
clueless as Bob Osborne. If he pulls a stunt like that in the Chase and
the caution doesn't come out, Carl can kiss the Championship goodbye.


  84.   Mike posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:15 am
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@Mr. X: Yes, it's been such a long time since the longest green-flag run
in a race was 71 laps. In fact, the last time was ... four days ago.


  85.   00andJoe posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:30 am
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#24 sponsor: Drive to End Hunger/Chase AARP Visa


  86.   irony posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:33 am
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Record tying 15 cautions.


  87.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:44 am
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Harvick dominated Michigan and Daytona last year.

See, this is why I say,"How will Jeff have this win stolen?".


  88.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:54 am
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Since all conspiracies are on the table, could Menard have intentionally
spun, knowing his Chase chances were done, just to help Harvick who had
lost his shot to win with Gordo running like he has nitrous?


  89.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.11.2011 - 8:01 am
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Although JJ had it coming, I say that was not smart by Kurt. I think he
needs to think about what Rusty did to Jeff at this very track in the
Spring of '98. Remember, at that point, even though he had 4 wins, he
was having a very uneven year. But after Rusty dumped him, he and his
team woke up and went on a tear like never before.

Seeing Kurt do that, and then taunt him afterwards, gives me a bad
feeling. The last time the 48 team got taunted like that was by Mike
Ford after Texas last year. That team still hasn't recovered. Yes JJ had
it coming, but he is the type you should just leave alone.

And I want to say some things about Kurt's equipment rant. First off, if
it is all about equipment, why does your teammate, who finished 25th in
points last year with a best finish of 10th, have 3 wins to your 1?
Second, if HMS is so far ahead in equipment (they are), why wouldn't you
try to get on with them? He has insulted them repeatedly, calling them
pretty boys. Why burn that bridge? Third, you just publically insulted
your organization. Penske Racing has to be beyond sick of it at this
point. That oughta help your team unity going forward.

Damn, JJ does have a golden horseshoe. Even when somebody finally stands
up to him, it has to be one of the biggest dumbasses in the garage.


  90.   Dodge posted:
  09.11.2011 - 8:11 am
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Junior fans, get ready to watch Jr. finish 12th in the Chase. In the
best equipment in the sport. Jr. is a joke. Has been since half way in
2008. Just saying the truth.


  91.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.11.2011 - 8:34 am
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Did you guys hear about Kurt in the press conference? Why is HE so
upset? He dumped his rival. His rival made an embarrassing attempt to
retaliate that tore his own car up and didn't even cost Kurt a spot, yet
he is the one storming out and ripping up reporters notes? Yeesh.


  92.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:38 am
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Kyle Busch had no sponsor for this race. He ran a blank American Flag
paint scheme with no sponsor labels, not even the front quarter panel
decals. He only had "9/11- We Remember" written on his rear bumper.

NO M&M'S!!!!!


  93.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:39 am
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Sorry. It was "Never Forget" not the other.

So "9/11 Never Forget"


  94.   potatosalad48 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:41 am
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Kurt Busch proves his immaturity once again. I lost my respect for him a
long time ago.


  95.   Anonymous posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:53 am
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Enough bashing Dale Jr. He might finish 12th in the chase but it is
because Rick Hendrick won't give him good enough cars to compete in.
Dale Jr. is a good enough driver to win races but for some reason Rick
doesn't want him to. It isn't Dale Jr's falt he gets bad cars it's
Hendrick's.


  96.   18fan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 10:19 am
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Kurt Busch is the only driver who has been in the top 10 in points for
all 26 races.


  97.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.11.2011 - 10:51 am
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Something I meant to mention. This was an interesting weekend because,
over two nights, we got to see the two sides of Kevin Harvick. In this
race, we saw what he can do if his car is good and faces no adversity.
He can be as good as almost anyone. Only the legend, Jeff Gordon, had
something for him at the very end of a long run.

But on Friday night, we saw his other side. He didn't like his car, and
he made a bad situation much worse. Perhaps nobody in the cha$e whose
last name isn't "Busch" is more reliant on their equipment. RCR has to
give Harvick Top 5 cars every single week for him to have a shot. He
needs to hope for a "Kurt Busch in '04 Miricle Run" to the title.

Interesting contrast for the ending of this race to the one last week.
Last week saw the two legends fight it out, the nine combined Cups and
130+ Cup wins slipping and sliding their way for a win. This race, we
saw two "Best of the Rest" drivers fight it out over the last few laps.
Two streaky drivers capable of lighting it up at times, but then going
through long dry spells at other times. Two guys who are good, but not
quite good enough to topple the juggernauts. A Cup championship or two
may be in their future, but most of the time they are fighting for Best
of the Rest.


  98.   Eric posted:
  09.11.2011 - 10:58 am
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I am a bit shocked how dominate Kevin's car was last night. I really
don't think the rivalry between Kurt Busch and Jimmie Johnson is over.

Brad not winning the chase shouldn't be one of the biggest chokes in
Nascar history a first place unlike what dirtfan9628 says. You need a
points lead before before considering it being a choke a first place.
Brad never had a points lead in cup yet this year. The 2nd thing is a
big choke in racing is when a driver loses the points lead after leading
points by a huge margin or when the driver lead in points for most of
the year.


  99.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:01 am
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Anonymous #95 who doesn't have the guts to use his name, in that case,
it is Rick Hendrick's fault that Jimmie has won five straight titles
when Jimmie ain't a scab on Gordo or Martin's rears, and it is
Hendrick's fault that his family all died in a horrific plane crash, and
it is Hendrick's fault that Tim Richmond was a masher who dies from
AIDS, and it is Rick's fault that his parent's died. Get real. No. Those
things are CHANCE events controlled by someone a heck of lot more
powerful than the President. Maybe it is Rick that is June's problem;
then Steve Letarte should fix it. You need some to blame it on, look at
Letarte. He cost Jeff the 07 title when Jeff drove like he could have
won the title in Morgan Shepherd's car. Now, he is a pain in June's
rear. It isn't ALWAYS owner, even if it usually is. You have analyze the
likelihood. If a driver is just a tick better, then there is a pit crew
issue. If a driver is a chunk better, it is the crew chief. If a driver
is light year's away, it is either the driver or owner.


  100.   RaceFanX posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:31 am
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Kyle Busch's blank American flag paint job in this race was an almost
exact replica of the well-received and remembered American flag scheme
Ken Schrader ran on the then #36 M&M's Pontiac at Dover in the first
post-9/11 Cup race back in 2001.


  101.   Bronco posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:32 am
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"Harvick dominated Michigan and Daytona last year."

He didn't lead the most laps at Michigan last year, and at Daytona he
did lead the most laps, but it wasn't even 25% of the race, plus he
needed a lucky dog at one point.

"Junior fans, get ready to watch Jr. finish 12th in the Chase. In the
best equipment in the sport. Jr. is a joke. Has been since half way in
2008. Just saying the truth."

After you clearly demonstrated your lack of NASCAR knowledge following
the Darlington race, saying that Harvick should have put his car in
"Park", its probably best that people take whatever you have to say with
a grain of salt.

I think Dale Jr will have a solid chase run, not championship material
but will probably be 6th-9th at the end of it. He scored top 10s at
Kansas, Charlotte, Talladega, Martinsville, Texas, Phoenix earlier this
year and didn't finish too badly at Dover and New Hampshire so I think
he'll be fine.


  102.   18fan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:34 am
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When Harvick started charging back up through the field and took the
lead, and then got out of the pits ahead of Gordon and held on, I
couldn't help but think about how absolutely insane the FOX crew would
have gone about Harvick being "The Closer". But I do wonder if this race
is the exception or the norm for Harvick and the 29 team based on their
performance since he came off probation, which is when that team began
to go straight down.


  103.   GDR posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:44 am
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Since they won Charlotte I think they've been doing nothing but testing
stuff and trying to do unorthodox things to win races that they usually
don't do. The first sign that they were back on track was last week at
Atlanta, where they had better than a 7th-place car, but that's where
they wound up, partially because part of the splitter on the left front
broke off.

I don't know if he can win the Chase because I don't think 1.5 milers
are the teams strong point, but if he can win Talladega, find another
win in there and do well enough on the 1.5 milers, he'll be in the hunt.
It's all going to come down to wins, they ran great in the Chase last
year, but not winning a race during it cost them.


  104.   18fan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:56 am
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Harvick also has to keep up what he did this weekend and qualify better.
I think that more than anything cost him the championship because he
spent all his time coming through the field while Jimmie and Denny were
leading laps. Kevin only led 5 of the 10 races and he never led the most
laps. Denny also only 5 races and led the most laps once, but Kevin
scored more points in the Chase than Denny did. Jimmie led 6 races and
the most laps once.


  105.   Eric posted:
  09.11.2011 - 11:57 am
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Here is my analysis on the 12 drivers in the chase with me having Jeff
Gordon winning it:

Kevin Harvick - I really don't like this team going into the chase
despite his win. The 29 team struggled most of the summer and didn't get
a top 5 before last night in 2 months. Kevin is at a disadvantage of not
having a teammate in the chase and RCR being in a down year for the most
part. This different than Jeff Gordon because 2 of his 3 teammates are
no help for him for feedback.Jeff Burton and Clint Bowyer are middle of
having down years this year. Father might be catching up to Jeff Burton
and Clint is distracted by not having a contract next year with RCR yet.
Paul Menard being your best teammate right now isn't a good sign. Kevin
also has a question of focus because KHI still exists this year. The
other issue is Kevin usually doesn't lead a lot of laps in a race and is
conservative despite his wins.

Kyle Busch - I don't like his chances going into the chase. JGR
basically is getting a rid of at least a part of his engine shop after
this season and brings questions on how it would effect the 18 and 11
team for the chase. Kyle also is known for disappointing chase results.
What is going to help Kyle is the fact he isn't supposed to run all the
Nationwide and truck races that happen during the chase.

Jeff Gordon - This team is the favorite. The 24 is hot going into the
chase. While Mark Martin isn't the chase, Jeff has a better teammate to
get info from Jimmie Johnson does for feedback. Mark Martin also is more
competitive than Kevin Harvick's teammate Jeff Burton is this year.

Matt Kenseth - I really question Roush as whole going into the chase.
Roush peaked early in the year. Matt has being steady this year, but the
question with Roush always being at one mile tracks or shorter for most
of the 21st century. Matt also hasn't had a top 10 at Talladega since
2006 fall race.

Carl Edwards - It is hard to get a reading on this team. He was better
earlier in the season despite having a nice rebound for the last 3 cup
races going into the chase. Roush doesn't a great 1 or mile less track
program for the most part outside of Dover despite Carl's win at Phoenix
last year. That issue with Roush is either on the organization or the
drivers Roush has. Carl racing in the Nationwide series full-time isn't
going to help him. Talladega is a question for Carl despite having a top
10 there in the spring. That was Carl's first top 10 at Talladega since
the 2006 fall race. The other issue is Brad is in the chase and you have
to wonder if that could effect Carl mentally.

Jimmie Johnson - He is still one of the favorites, but isn't the
Hendrick driver to beat in the chase. The 48 is weaker than in years
past. Jimmie also has the issue of Kurt Busch. Kurt could dump him
during the chase. Jimmie also has the issue of Dale Jr. not being the
ideal driver for getting notes from.

Ryan Newman - Nice year out of him, but isn't the chase favorite. He has
the problem of Stewart-Haas racing getting equipment from Hendrick.
Hendrick doesn't give out their best stuff during chase time. Newman
also is streaky at times this year besides Talladega being an issue for
him since the spring 2009 race.

Kurt Busch - Could finish in the top in 5 point, but not a championship.
His teammate is great for sharing notes from and the organization has a
great turnaround since what happened at Richmond. Kurt has the issue of
Jimmie Johnson. Kurt is streaky at times this year.

Tony Stewart - Can't win the chase. His team has been up and down all
year. Being a cup owner is hurting him as a driver. He has the same
equipment issue as Ryan Newman.

Denny Hamlin - Can't win the chase. 11 team isn't the same as last year.
Engine department could be a distraction for JGR during the chase.

Brad Keselowski - Will not win the chase. Brad is now back to racing
Nationwide full time and that is an issue with him. Brad raced better
when he wasn't racing in the Nationwide series. Brad also the question
of can his team continue their upswing after struggling for most of the
first half of the year.

Dale Jr - him winning the chase is like winning the lottery due to
driver and crew chief. Finishing top 5 in points is like a win for this
team. The driver hasn't been good for the most part after the 1st Pocono
race. Steve Letarte is a questionable crew chief for making the right
calls and that dates back to calling the shots for Jeff Gordon.


  106.   00andJoe posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:03 pm
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The #9 sponsor should be Stanley/DeWalt Tools as usual. :)
(Sorry I didn't notice this sooner.)


  107.   Eric posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:06 pm
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When I mentioned Harvick being conservative, I meant how he races on the
track in terms of racing style like his teammate Jeff Burton.


  108.   00andJoe posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:26 pm
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Owner standings by best finishing team car:

1. Hendrick, 1059
2. Gibbs, 1054
3. Roush, 1048
4. Childress, 1001
5. Penske, 971
6. Stewart-Haas, 914
7. Petty, 850
8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 799
9. Red Bull, 787
10. Michael Waltrip, 769
11. Furniture Row, 589
12. JTG-Daughtery, 539
13. Front Row, 487
14. Phoenix, 466
15. Germain, 387
16. Baldwin, 381
17. Stoddard, 356
18. TRG, 349
19. Robby Gordon, 281
20. Wood Brothers, 238
21. Gunselman, 152
22. Whitney, 114
23. Parsons, 103
24. NEMCO, 97
25. Inception, 60
26. Leavine, 47
27. Rusty Wallace, 24
28. Falk, 20
29. K-Automotive, 9


  109.   NBC posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:38 pm
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Seeds for the chase:

1. Ky. Busch
2. Harvick
3. Gordon
4. Kenseth
5. Edwards
6. Johnson
7. Ku. Busch
8. Newman
9. Stewart
10. Earnhardt Jr.
11. Keselowksi
12. Hamlin


  110.   1995z71 posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:42 pm
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What a Great race, haven't seen a slugfest like this in a long long
time! Even Bristol is getting boring. Great run for Stephen Leicht, a
bad call for staying out before a long green flag run ruined any chance
of him getting a top 10.


  111.   Vickers83fan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 12:46 pm
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I Love Kurt Busch's Interview after the race. Amen Brother


  112.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.11.2011 - 3:48 pm
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"And yet, there is no mention of his ridiculously inappropriate
nickname, "The Closer", despite this being his first win in a long time
that is actually fitting. I guess people still don't understand what
"closing" means."

That is because the FOX crew are the ones who came up with that stupid
nickname. Last night, he closed the deal pretty well but I don't
consider someone who puts down his team when the cars are off rather
than raising himself to another level (see Johnson, Jimmie and Gordon,
Jeff) to be any kind of closer in general.

Kurt Busch's complaining is getting REALLY annoying. Guess whose
decision it was to sign with Penske in the first place?! KURT'S! He went
from what was the second best team at the time to about the fifth best,
what did he think would happen? Even Rusty was having trouble winning in
his final years. Only now have they reached the point they used to be in
terms of being competitive.

I don't in any way think Brad will win the championship, but he could
very well go for a top 5 points finish if he can keep up with the great
finishes he's had lately in the cha$e. I'd much rather see them maintain
speed overall so they can have a year like this next year as well.


  113.   Dodge posted:
  09.11.2011 - 4:17 pm
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Bronco, you don't know me so don't say I know nothing about NASCAR. I
was misinformed and thought that they had park. Sorry I am not like you
and PERFECT, moron.

As for the fools that say it is Hendrick screwing Jr. by not giving him
cars that are capable of winning. Hendrick moved the 88 into the 48 shop
so that they can try to figure out what is up. Well, lets see, 3
different crew chiefs, new crew members AND the cars that Gordon was
racing last year and is getting absolutely little out of plus whatever
new cars they have built this year.


  114.   Dodge posted:
  09.11.2011 - 4:32 pm
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I didn't even get to watch the post race interviews. My local ABC
affiliate once the checkered flag waved, they went right to the news.

I was a little harsh on you Bronco, calling you a moron. I don't know
you so it isn't right for me to say something like that. I like
discussing the races but I haven't been for this reason. I state MY
OPINION, and some attack me for my view. We aren't all going to like
what we all post. Plus, that is what makes us individuals. We all don't
think alike.


  115.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 5:05 pm
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Dodge, eloquently put.


  116.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.11.2011 - 6:03 pm
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Kurt Busch definitely gets the "Kevin Harvick Memorial Standing Up To
The Bully And Somehow Come Off As Less Mature Due To Their Behavior
Afterwards" award. A reported asked JJ about Kurt's comments that he
made ON NATIONAL TV, then Kurt said he never said that. After it was
said on national TV, and it was being read from a transcript given out
by DODGE MOTORSPORTS!!! When the transcript was brought up, Kurt walked
down and ripped it in half. What the hell? What a tool! I had been
having trouble deciding whether Harvick or Kyle would get the Tool Of
The Year title, but it looks like Kurt is blowing them off the map. I
mean seriously, did he think that would make it go away? What an idiot.
That is simply being a jerk. It is one thing to be a jackass towards
your fellow millionaire competitors, but to act like that towards some
media person? What a d**k! Kurt is quite simply a bad person.

Seriously, the one argument against JJ's success is the fact that all of
his competition are morons. Of his talented contemporaries, most of them
are their own worst enemies (both Busches, Harvick, Smoke).

"Guess whose decision it was to sign with Penske in the first place?!
KURT'S!"

Exactly. Then he insults them all over the place, on the radio and
publically.


  117.   Matthew Sullivan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 6:12 pm
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Anyone complaining about Junior last night needs to get a clue. How many
incidents has Junior caused this year? Hell, how many has he caused
throughout his entire career? How many incidents has he been a victim of
this year? The guy is one of the cleanest, most respectful drivers out
there. More than most anyone else out there, he deserves the benefit of
the doubt when it comes to incidents on track.

As far as the 88 team "backing" into the Chase, they earned the right to
do so by running strong the first part of the season I think Junior
would be the first to tell you that he would have preferred to run much
better these past several races, but it is what it is. Let's remember
that of all the tracks that the series has run at that are in the Chase,
the 88 scored the most combined points. Are they championship material?
Probably not, but I think that they can win a race or two and surprise
some people these final 10 races.


  118.   Ryan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:11 pm
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"He (Harvick) didn't lead the most laps at Michigan last year, and at
Daytona he did lead the most laps, but it wasn't even 25% of the race,
plus he needed a lucky dog at one point."

He was easily the best car the last half of the Michigan race.

"Kevin is at a disadvantage of not having a teammate in the chase and
RCR being in a down year for the most part."

I think he could have Menard and Burton run test set ups for him in
practice. He actually might be at a good advantage because of this. The
24 and 48 are no longer "buddies" like they used to be. Edwards and
Kenseth may help each other. They seem to have a friendly competition.

"I had been having trouble deciding whether Harvick or Kyle would get
the Tool Of The Year title, but it looks like Kurt is blowing them off
the map."

I think Kurt and Johnson are both tools. Kurt was once voted most hated
athlete just behind Barry Bonds and Terrell Owens in 2005, until his
brother came around. Johnson is a me guy. After he said all that bogus
stuff after Pocono and saying that Kurt actually started it with him
when you could see from the replay that Johnson came down on him.
Johnson is a tool as well. Kurt is right, Johnson can't stand it when
someone races him hard, just like Gordon last year at Texas. He thinks
his crap don't stink. I'm glad he is into it with someone because this
may stop his streak. And people on here are referring this incident
between the 22 and 48 like about the '98 Richmond Spring race when
Gordon was "woke" up by Rusty. Lets get serious, we all know that Gordon
was the class of the field that year regardless of getting put in the
wall by Rusty. It was a matter of time before he completely dominated.
Johnson has a lot of competition this year unlike Gordon did that year.


  119.   Ryan posted:
  09.11.2011 - 9:23 pm
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"He (Harvick) won the '03 Brickyard 400, and didn't win again until
2005. He won the '07 Daytona 500, and didn't win again for over 3 years.
His most recent win was this year's Coke 600. Are we going to see
another long winless streak?"

I'd hate to be the person that asked this question two weeks ago on the
Bristol board.


  120.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.11.2011 - 10:15 pm
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"I'd hate to be the person that asked this question two weeks ago on the
Bristol board."

Lol. Do you really think I'm ashamed of that? First off, I didn't say
"he will definitely have a long winless streak" I just wondered aloud.
Secondly, go read the first few comments on the 2nd Michigan page from
this year as Spen and I exchange predictions we had made previously made
that were way off the mark.


  121.   18fan posted:
  09.12.2011 - 1:00 am
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Just when it looked like the young, immature Kurt Busch was gone, it
reared its ugly head again when he got into an altercation with a
reporter on pit road when the reporter asked if either Kurt or Jimmie
could win the chase and Kurt got pissed off saying that he knew that the
topic would be brought up. Kurt walked away and the
reporter(NASCAR.com's Joe Menzer) yelled at him as Kurt was walking away
that it was a legitimate question. Kurt then starting yelling expletives
at Menzer and appeared to want to fight him. Kurt had to be restrained
by his team to prevent him from attacking Menzer. And that was before
the whole "I didn't say that tonight" incident in the media center.


  122.   Mr X posted:
  09.12.2011 - 1:01 am
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I really hope that there aren't any more races sponsored by Pistachios,
their commercials were quite annoying, could've been a really great race
if it weren't for 85 caution laps.

Dale Jr wont win the Chase, Dale Jr & Steve Letarte cant put one entire
race together, nevermind 10 races, they've been quite invisible lately.
I think now that they've made the Chase that will allow them to be more
aggressive, but it wont be enough.

Tony Stewart isn't consistant enough to win the title.

Ryan Newman is better then Stewart this year but not enough, I also have
difficulty imagining Ryan as a serious title contender.

Kurt Busch is a maybe, I honestly think that Jimmie and Kurt will
probably realize that its business time, and will drive accordingly. I'm
also not sure they can put 10 complete races together.

Jimmie has won under this joke of a points system 5 years in a row now,
he'll be a favourite to win Dover, Loudon, Charlotte, Martinsville, and
Phoenix. Plus the 48 is as fast as ever this year, They've performed
well through the summer. Plus Hendrick equipment is virtually bulletproof.

Carl has his work cut out for him this year, Bob Osbourne prooved he can
make exceptionally stupid calls last night, they had a car to win and
almost strategized themselves into a 25th place finish, and they weren't
boxed into that strategy either. Bob Osbourne says "We need one more
stop, we're in our fuel window, we have worn tires like everyone else,
we have track position, lets stay out." Roush equipment is usually fast,
but fickle aswell. Short tracks plague this team.

Matt is like Carl, strong but they've adjusted themselves out of wins in
Atlanta and Bristol. Matt will be a factor but I'm not sure he'll be
strong enough to win it all.

Jeff Gordon must be a favourite, he has the momentum, and the poise to
win the title, Jeff is definitely the smartest, most experienced driver
in the Chase, he wont cost the team anything in some failed attemt at
anything stupid, not to mention I can't think of any possible
distractions. Despite being a Gordon fan, I only want this Championship
for Jeff if he wins it under the old format aswell.

Kevin Harvick definitely has a shot at the title aswell, if the #29 team
has been experimenting as much as it looks like they have, they should
have plenty of speed in reserve, and when things are going right Harvick
is as good as any driver in this series. Maybe he'll get the trophy and
cheque he should've gotten last year.

Kyle Busch is another player, they have speed, but Kyle has maturity
issues, JGR has durability issues, the NNS, and CWTS will most likely be
huge distractions, Kyle may fall to pieces like in previous years. Last
year Kyle cost himself multiple laps by "fingering" an official.

NASCAR better hope for their already weaning credibility's sake that a
wild card driver doesn't win the chase, its bad enough they even have a
chance, they dont deserve one. 48 hours ago Denny and Brad were about
130-150 points out of the lead and now for no reason they're 12 points out.


  123.   18fan posted:
  09.12.2011 - 1:46 am
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The question about the 29 team is when did they start experimenting,
because they were up and down in the beginning of the season as well.


  124.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.12.2011 - 6:42 am
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I will reiterate. Dale can't win with Letarte. If Letarte couldn't even
don anything right with the best driver of this era (after maybe only
Dale Sr.), then he certainly won't do anything with Dale who is at best
a 1 title driver. On the other side, I think Jeff is the favorite. He is
thse only guy in the Chase who has:
1) Good enough equipment (Tony fall out)
2) Good enough crew chief (Hamlin and Dale fall out)
3) Good enough driving (Newman falls out)
4) The determination (Dale (again) and Kes fall out due to lack of
confidence and choking respectively; Kes is good, but this is too much
too fast for anyone to handle)
5) No enemies made in this calendar year (Shrub, Kevin, Carl, Jimmie,
and Kurt all fall out)
That leaves Jeff and Kenseth to battle for the title. Kenseth is a
sleeper pick, but in no way a darkhorse. If it doesn't work this way,
then it is proof that NASCAR is really NA$CAR, and that the team owners
are all a bunch of unmitigated a-holes like I have thought. Hello, title
#6 Jimmie. Hendrick would do it because he doesn't want Jeff anymore. He
would rather have Landon Cassill than Jeff's paycheck... Here's to
hoping that my criteria pick the champion.


  125.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.12.2011 - 9:08 am
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I don't think you can question Brad's determination. The question is
whether or not he is too determined. What will hurt them is the short
flat tracks (NH, MVille, Phx). Best case scenario for them at these
races is about a 12th place car. And that is if they don't blow a right
front tire.

I think Brad has definitely arrived. Granted I am a huge fan, but this
hot streak he had from Pocono through Atlanta could be seen coming. They
just finally started being able to put a whole race together.


  126.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.12.2011 - 9:15 am
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DSFF, you make a good point, but can you imagine the pressure if you go
from 20th in the points last year, you are 20th in the points again, and
now you are suddenly in the Chase. If I were Brad, I would be
overwhelmed, and you are getting it from a person who clepped Calc 2.


  127.   Anonymous posted:
  09.12.2011 - 9:54 am
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Edwards and Ragan were the only drivers to have top-5s in both Richmond
races.


  128.   Smokefan05 posted:
  09.12.2011 - 10:39 am
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"That leaves Jeff and Kenseth to battle for the title. Kenseth is a
sleeper pick, but in no way a darkhorse. If it doesn't work this way,
then it is proof that NASCAR is really NA$CAR, and that the team owners
are all a bunch of unmitigated a-holes like I have thought. Hello, title
#6 Jimmie. Hendrick would do it because he doesn't want Jeff anymore. He
would rather have Landon Cassill than Jeff's paycheck... Here's to
hoping that my criteria pick the champion."

So its NASCAR fault if Jeffie Poo doesn't win the Cup? Wow, that is one
great excuse is too blame NASCAR for your drivers enability to beat
Jimmie. The only person who should get blame is Jeff for not pulling it
out if Jimmie wins #6. Since everyone races under this "joke" of system,
then its their fault for not beating Jimmie the past 5 years. Rules are
the same for everyone.

I guess it was a "joke" when Matt 'points raced' his way to a
Championship in 2003? Yeah it was a "joke" from what i hear, and one of
the "jokey" reason why we have this "joke" of a current system is
because this "joke" of the fan base with its endless bit##ing about
everything.

Oh and i guess Richard Pettys 5 championships under 5 different systems
are a "joke" too........-_-

Geez, same sh**, different day.


  129.   BON GORDON posted:
  09.12.2011 - 11:29 am
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Im a huge Jeff Gordon fan and i agree with smokefan05. Hendrick cares
about all of his drivers the same in my mind regaurdless of the results.
Jimmie has been the best the last five years or so. Jeff just couldnt
beat him whether its speed, bad luck, handling, etc. There's no
conspiracy. You try to win the title no matter what the system is. These
drivers and teams have noone to blame but themselves. They could beat
Johnson but no lets change the system. I think Jimmie Johnson could win
titles under any points system. That team is awesome but others can step
it up too. Im sure Hendrick would love for Jimmie to get 6 straight but
at the same time he knows it would be good for NASCAR and his team if
Gordon can rise from the ashes of defeat and hoist his fifth and likely
last title. Regaining past glory.


  130.   00andJoe posted:
  09.12.2011 - 11:38 am
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"I guess it was a "joke" when Matt 'points raced' his way to a
Championship in 2003? Yeah it was a "joke" from what i hear, and one of
the "jokey" reason why we have this "joke" of a current system is
because this "joke" of the fan base with its endless bit##ing about
everything."

Hear, hear! Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans got
what they wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees...


  131.   Scott B posted:
  09.12.2011 - 12:11 pm
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To add to 00 and Joe's post...

Owner standings by best finishing team car, and number of cars in the chase:

1. Hendrick, 1059, 3 teams in out of 4.
2. Gibbs, 1054, 2 teams in out of 3.
3. Roush, 1048, 2 teams in out of 4.
4. Childress, 1001, 1 team in out of 3.
5. Penske, 971, 2 teams in out of 2.
6. Stewart-Haas, 914, 2 teams in out of 2.

Teams in the chase by manufacturers:

Chevy 6
Toyota 2
Ford 2
Dodge 2


  132.   Scott B posted:
  09.12.2011 - 12:17 pm
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Edit: that should be 1 of 4 for Childress.

And one more angle, drivers who missed the chase, but had teammates who
made it:

Mark Martin, Hendrick (lame duck)
Joey Logano, Gibbs
Greg Biffle, Roush
David Ragan, Roush
Clint Bowyer, Childress
Jeff Burton, Childress
Paul Menard, Childress


  133.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.12.2011 - 2:39 pm
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"but can you imagine the pressure if you go from 20th in the points last
year, you are 20th in the points again, and now you are suddenly in the
Chase."

Brad to me doesn't seem like the type of driver who would choke. I could
be wrong, but given that he was indeed below 20th in points before his
Pocono win, like you said, I'm sure he doesn't expect to blow everyone
away in the cha$e. I think a realistic goal for him would be to at least
compete for a top 5 points finish.

"Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans got what they
wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees... "

You know what the funniest part is? The cha$e was implemented in the
first place because NASCAR listened to all the fans who complained about
how Kenseth won the 2003 title. Granted he only won once, but he put
together a better season overall than anyone else did (yes, even Ryan
Newman was too inconsistent to win it). People say Matt didn't deserve
his title and that it was a joke, but if that were the case, why didn't
anyone else come close to beating him?

I'd much rather see someone "race" their way to a "boring" championship
once in a while than have the entire championship be decided on the
basis of 10/36 races.


  134.   21ForeverDP posted:
  09.12.2011 - 3:25 pm
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SmokeFan05 makes a good, but makes himself a jacka$$ doing so. The point
is Jeff is clearly better than Jimmie in equipment this year, but would
Hendrick give Jeff crud for the bonus of having the six time reigning
hack, who wouldn't have over half of his titles without the Chase.
HELLo! As a driver, Jimmie has only been a title deserving driver for 70
Chase races + his none-Chase wins. No season-long greatness EVER. When
everyone else except for the 74 Richard Petty with the psycho format,
who else has ever won the title and clearly not the most consistent
driver. The titles that Jimmie would have won even with pre-04 points
still would have been by the skin of his teeth. Heck, Jimmie only
outscored Harvick by only 21 points in last year's Chase. That means
Harvick had season-lone 300 more points. Champion! Hell no. See also 2007.


  135.   Scott B posted:
  09.12.2011 - 4:20 pm
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^^^^^

Also, with all the hype and tinkering with the system, guess how many
drivers raced their way into the Chase at Richmond this week?

If you guessed zero, you are correct. The same twelve who were in Chase
positions going in, came out in Chase spots. While it wasn't a
mathematical certainty that they would clinch, it was the most likely
outcome (or at least the one I expected).

Meanwhile, over in the Truck series, there's 4 drivers within 17 points
of the series lead late in the season, without any playoff system. I say
let it play out naturally, and value every race of the season equally.

However, I don't consider JJ's championships a joke because of the
Chase. He and Chad Knaus may have adapted to the system quicker than
others, but everyone knew what the rules were going to be when each
season started.

The 2003 controversy was really more about how much of a bonus should be
attached to winning a race, which is a totally legit question to debate.
The Chase has a lot more to do with the start of the NFL regular season
schedule on Sundays than it has to do with the issue of the fairest was
the determine the season champion.


  136.   AlmirolaFan88 posted:
  09.12.2011 - 4:27 pm
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Big news regarding Kyle Busch, he'll only run 3 more Nationwide races
for remainder of the season. Joey Logano is in the #18 NNS car this
week. Looks like KB finally sees the big picture.


  137.   Talon64 posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:00 pm
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The one thing I'm afraid of for BraKes and the #2 in the Chase is that
they'll just run out of steam like Brian Vickers did in 2009 when he
made the Chase and just tanked. While I don't think BraKes is going to
completely tank, it's not out of the question and I think they won't
finish higher than 7th in pts. Doesn't mean they won't win another race
before the year's out and I'll be hoping I'm wrong.

And somehow Kurt Busch made me appreciate Carl Edwards more. Because as
much as I've ragged on him and joked about Carl being a sociopath he's
not really a bad guy. He just has a bad temper and terrible decision
making skills at the worst times, but he's been as clean as anyone this
year.

But Kurt? Like someone said, he's just a bad person. And there's no
driver as insecure and jealous as he is. The insecurity is why he left
Roush for Penske because he knew he would never be THE guy at Roush so
he left to be THE guy at Penske. Which he was, which is why he cut down
a bit on the jerk factor.

But how coincidental that in this season, where not only does Kyle Busch
continue to make Kurt the other brother, as Jimmie Johnson continues to
dominate the sport and make everyone forget Kurt's complete fluke of a
championship in 2004 (this is where the jealousy is prevalent), but now
Kurt actually has a teammate in Brad Keselowski at Penske who's not only
outperforming him but doing better in the #2 Miller Lite car than Kurt
ever did in any of the previous 5 seasons.

So now Kurt has to poke the bear to convince himself, let alone everyone
else, that he can get in Jimmie's head and throw him off his game. And
as that fails the jerk we all knew and hated is back in full force.

In the 4 races following Kurt and Jimmie's tangle at Pocono, Kurt
finished 38th, 34th, 17th and 4th while Jimmie finished 10th, 2nd, 4th
and 2nd. So who's in who's head?

And Kurt shouldn't throw stones that can be thrown at himself. From 2002
to 2005 Kurt's 14 wins were 3rd in the sport only to Jimmie Johnson (18)
and Jeff Gordon (15) and never won fewer than 3 races in a year. But
since joining Penske he's got 9 wins in 6 seasons (ranked 10th) and
never more than 2 in a year. Wow, that Roush equipment sure made Kurt
look good!

In short, Kurt's an asshole who's going to fail miserably in his attempt
to thwart Jimmie Johnson's run of championships. Unless he intentionally
wrecks Jimmie to cost him the championship, which would be one of the
lowest things a driver's done in a long time; I'm sure he'd lose what
speck of respect the fans have for him, it would probably cost him the
respect of the teams and drivers.

But I'm sure Kurt couldn't give a shit about that since he's got his
train of Barbie doll girlfriends to lord about. Again, that insecurity
thing.

[/rant]


  138.   Mr X posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:00 pm
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I have never complained in my life about the quality of Matt Kenseth's
2003 championship. Matt won the title fair and square. I believe that
NASCAR should punish at bad finish almost as badly as they reward a win.
Matt took a very conservative route to the 2003 Championship and givin
what his main competition, Johnson, Earnhardt Jr, Gordon, Harvick, &
Newman put up, it was just barely enough to win the title, and you cant
blame him for trying it, in 2002 Matt was won the most races on the tour
and look what it got him. The only difference that should've been made
was making wins worth more than 175 points, which they did.

After Dover Matt had a 436 point lead, and you cant blame Matt for that
lead, all you can blame is Harvick, Gordon, Newman, Johnson, and
Earnhardt Jr for letting Matt get that far ahead.

Matt put up 22 top 10's in the first 28 races, nobody else had more then
16 in the first 28. Matt put up 1 win, 11 top 5's, 25 top 10's, 31 top
15's, and only 3 finishes outside the top 30 in 36 races. Matt was as
fast as anyone in first 28 races, and they made smart decisions that
allowed them to make it to the finish. His big points lead was shrinking
at an unbelievable rate in the last 8 races due to some mechanical
issues, a crash, and his competitors gaining speed on him, particularly
the Chevrolets. If the season were a few races longer Matt would've lost
it. Not to mention Matt's 2003 season with 5022 points wouldn't have
been strong enough to win the title in any years since. 2003 was like
2002 from that standpoint, just a low performance year.

If you actually look at the first 3/4 of Jimmie's 2003 season its
obvious why he didn't win the title. 12 top 10's and 2 wins in 27 races
isn't title material. Jimmie lost the title by 90 points, if you go back
to Dover in June of 2003, Matt finished 7th. We all know how well Jimmie
runs Dover, he swept the place in his rookie year, and has dominated and
won many races since. Well June 2003 was no different, Jimmie led 36
laps and was running up front, UNTIL he overdrove the exit of turn 2,
lost it all by himself, and crashed. He finished 38th. Matt scored 146
points, Jimmie scored 54. 146-54=92. There are other examples of this
too. Matt finished higher then Jimmie in 20 of 36 races.

Dale Jr didn't have any more success then Matt did, and had less
consistancy. Matt had more top 15's then Dale Jr. had top 30's.

Jeff Gordon was like Ryan Newman in 2003, he led 1639 laps, he had the
cars to win about 10 races probably, but during the summer he had a 10
race stretch where he had 6 finishes of 24th or worse, and during the
season he finished outside the top 20 in 1/4 of the races.

Kevin was like Dale Jr. Matt had more top 10's then Kevin had top 15's.

Ryan Newman won 8 races, but he also had 7 finishes of 31st or worse, 11
outside the top 20. He was 27th in points after Richmond in May, Ryan
dug himself a hole half way to China before he started running well
consistantly. Matt didn't win many races but I don't know how Ryan
planned to win the title when he spent half of the first third of the
season in the garage area. Matt had more top 15's then Ryan had top
30's. Ryan had a dominant car in the Southern 500 but hit the kill
switch and lost 8 laps. Matt finished higher then Ryan in 22 of 36 races.

I am not a Matt Kenseth fan by the way, I'm a Jeff Gordon fan.

The point is that under the old points system teams who wanted to win
the championship had to proove it 36 times a year. The eventual champion
had to get the best finish he possibly could every single race, every
race was equal. In 1996 Jeff Gordon lost the title to Terry Labonte on
lap 10 of the Daytona 500. Under the new points system the guy who wins
the title is the guy who is best across less than a third of the season,
and in the past almost any team has been able to put 10 good races
together, not to mention some teams almost throw away the first 26.

Every single driver deserved to finish exactly where they did in points,
Kyle Busch should've been 3rd in 2008, not 10th. Tony Stewart should've
been higher then 11th in 2006. Kevin Harvick should be the 2010 champ.
Kurt Busch has a trophy on his mantle that says he is the 2004 Nextel
Cup Champion. The 2004 season was 36 races long, between Daytona and
Homestead, Kurt Busch was the best between Loudon and Homestead. It says
Jeff was best but it was most likely Jimmie in 2004, and Jamie McMurray
should've been higher then 11th.

Under the new points system Denny Hamlin, Brad Keselowski, Dale Jr, and
Tony Stewart have had their 100+ point deficits wiped out because NASCAR
wants anyone of 12 drivers to have a shot at the title, but they dont
deserve it. Seeding the chase based on wins is even worse, last year
Denny Hamlin jumped from 9th to 1st when the chase started. The fact is
that I have yet to see a year when 12 drivers deserve a shot at the
title, and when it happens the chase will be unnecessary. The most I've
ever seen is 5 or 6 like in 2011(check old points system after
Richmond), and some years like 2010, 2007, 2001-1998, 1994, 1987, and
other years there was only one man who deserved that big cheque and
trophy. Those guys outran their competition big time in those years and
deserved the big points lead, and to lock up the title weeks in advance.
What made the 1992 points battle so great was the fact that after 29
races, the entire season, it came down to who led the most laps in the
season finale.

This is the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series and the competition between the top
teams is truly closer then it ever has been, we should be seperating the
men from the boys, not rigging a tight points finish between undeserving
teams and drivers.


  139.   Talon64 posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:11 pm
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2002 was another year with a lot of title contenders; Tony Stewart (who
ended up winning), Mark Martin, Jimmie Johnson (as a rookie!) and
Sterling Marlin (until he broke a vertebrae :( ). It ended up being Tony
vs. Mark as Sterling had his issues and Jimmie fell off in the last 6
races or so after taking the point lead.

But it was also a year where it didn't look like anyone wanted to win
the championship, since Tony's title-winning average finish was 12.6.


  140.   Mr X posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:17 pm
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Tony also had 6 DNF's and 4800 points in 36 races is pretty damn low.


  141.   Dodge posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:20 pm
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Sure Kurt was wrong with the way he acted. But he walked away then
Menzler yelled at him saying it was a legitimate question. Menzler would
of been better to just look for the next guy to talk. Everyone know how
the Busch's are, but when they are in a horrible mood, they still gotta
stick that mike in their faces. I in NO WAY believe that Kurt was right
in his actions, but I think Menzler didn't conduct himself
professionally either by yelling at him.


  142.   Anonymous posted:
  09.12.2011 - 5:21 pm
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So the video of Kurt Busch ripping the paper in the media center has
finally surfaced:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6958013


I have to say, I'm a little disappointed. The media really exaggerated
it, but that's no surprise since they are the ones controlling the
message and can easily make themselves appear more sympathetic. They
made it sound as if Kurt Busch was asked a question the media center,
denied what he had said, and then purposely walked across the room while
the other drivers looked on, tore the paper, and "stormed" out. They
reported on it like it was most disrespectful thing that any human has
ever done to another human being (only since it happened to one of
them), yet they are sitting there basically laughing about it after it
happened.

If the media calls what Busch did there, "storm(ing)" out, as several of
them did, it really makes me wonder about all those times they claimed
Kyle Busch "stormed" out of some place. Or Tony Stewart (also not
popular with the media). Or any other driver who has done something in
frustration or the heat of the moment after a race.

Too often the media manipulates the truth to aid a story, and add some
sensationalism, and this appears to be another one of those times.

Now I wonder what really happened between Kurt and that pit road
reporter. One thing is for sure, you can't trust the NASCAR media. They
aren't here to report the whole truth, and they aren't here to be the
driver's friends. If making a driver appear more villainous or more
sympathetic by tweaking details helps their story, they'll do it. Kurt
Busch deserves scorn for a number of things, but after seeing this whole
paper ripping thing with my own eyes, I'm willing to give him a pass on
that one. Still a dick move, but I see now how it came about from
frustration with the media, not him being an inherently terrible person.


  143.   Talon64 posted:
  09.12.2011 - 6:08 pm
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Kevin Harvick picked up his 18th career Sprint Cup victory, tying him
with Geoffrey Bodine, Neil Bonnett, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Harry Gant
for 40th all time and 24th in the modern era. His 18 wins are the 8th
most since he moved to Cup full time in 2001.

Harvick tied Kyle Busch for the lead in wins this season with 4, his 2nd
most wins ever in a year (5 in 2006).

It's his 2nd Richmond win, the 4th track where he's won multiple times
but has yet to win more than twice at any track (Phoenix and Chicagoland
are two of those and they're in the Chase). It's just his 2nd top 5 in
the 10 races since his 2006 win, but his 12th top 10 in the last 14
races there (8.3 avg fin, career 11.5 avg fin in 22 starts).

It's RCR's 99th career Cup win and 8th at Richmond (5 with Earnhardt, 2
with Harvick and 1 with Clint Bowyer).

Carl Edwards records his series-leading 4th runner-up finish of the
season. It's his best finish in the 16 races since his last runner-up
finish at Darlington back in May. Carl had only led 18 laps in the
previous 10 races before leading 113 here (9th time in 255 starts he's
led 100+ laps).

2nd is Carl's best career finish in 15 Richmond starts, but his 3 career
top 5's there have come in the last 4 races (4 top 10's, 5.5 avg fin,
221 laps led).

Jeff Gordon's now had at least 10 top 5's in 16 of his 19 seasons in Cup
(1993, 1994 and 2005 the only exceptions). It's his 3rd consecutive
podium finish, first time since October 2007 he's done so. He's picked
his 15th career top 5 at each of Bristol, Atlanta and now Richmond (38
starts, 14.5 avg fin) in that stretch.

David Ragan gets his first top 5 in the 9 races since his July Daytona
win, but his 3rd top 5 in 10 Richmond starts (tied with Daytona for his
most at any track).

Kurt Busch has back-to-back top 5's for the first time this season. It's
just his 3rd top 10 in the last 8 Richmond races (19.9 avg fin, career
17.4 in 22 starts).

Kyle Busch gets his first career stand-alone top 10 finish at Richmond
in 6th, ending his streak of 5 consecutive top 5's but extending his top
10 streak to 6. It's his 12th top 10 in 14 Richmond starts, raising his
average finish there to a pedestrian 5.0. Kyle Busch has yet to go
longer than 2 races in a row without a top 10.

For all the concerns about whether Tony Stewart would make the CHase,
this was Tony's 5th top 10 in the last 8 races; he's scored the 6th most
points in that span, although Brad Keselowski was 2nd and outscored him
by 33 points. Tony finished in the top 10 in both Richmond races this
year and now has 17 in 26 starts there (10.9 avg fin).

Ryan Newman gets his 4th top 10 in the last 6 Richmond races (10.2 avg
fin, 11.6 in 20 career starts).

Denny Hamlin now has at least 10 top 10's in every full season he's
competed in Cup (6 straight seasons since 2006). It's his season-high
3rd straight top 10, a streak that's come after putting a 28.25 avg fin
in the 4 races before that.

Mark Martin gets his 2nd top 10 in the last 4 races. Mark's had at least
10 top 10's in each of the last 23 seasons (1988-2010) and had 8 this
season with 10 races to go and is on pace for 11. It's his first top 10
in the last 4 Richmond races and his 28th in 52 career starts there
(12.2 avg fin).

AJ Allmendinger finished 11th for a 4th time this season, his 5th
straight finish of 12th or better (10.4 avg fin).

Brad Keselowski's 6 race top 10 streak comes to an end. But it's his
14th top 15 finish of the season after only having 15 in his first 53
starts in the series.

Casey Mears gets his best finish of the season so far in 17th and just
his 2nd top 20 finish.

Regan Smith has 3 top 20's in the last 4 races.

David Reutimann earned his 4th career Sprint Cup pole, his first since
2009 at Dover. Unfortunately, in the 4 races he's started from pole his
average finish is 18.75 with a best finish of 11th. In his 12 career top
5's, his average start is 14.1 with a best of 4th and only 4 top 10 starts.


  144.   Scott B posted:
  09.12.2011 - 6:20 pm
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Whatever happened, I doubt Kurt is getting into anyone's head but his own.

When it comes to psychological warfare, none of the current bad boys
have really figured that out. They simply throw tantrums from time to time.

I haven't seen a driver who really understood how the push his rivals'
buttons and use it to his advantage in a calculated way since the
Intimidator passed.

Brad K may master that craft eventually, he seems to have some of the
instincts but still needs to refine his game.


  145.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.12.2011 - 8:10 pm
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I don't have a ton of respect for the media that currently covers the
sport. I don't think they do a very good job. But still, there is a
thing called human decency. Lashing out at the media members is just a
weak thing to do. That is part of the deal they have to be prepared for.
They are going to have their every move dissected and asked questions
they don't want to talk about. It is a small price for the millions of
dollars they get, their lake homes, their top of the line motor homes,
their private jets, and girls that wouldn't be caught dead with them if
they weren't rich.

Talon, you nailed it.


  146.   00andJoe posted:
  09.12.2011 - 10:02 pm
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Chigagoland entry list is out, 48 cars:

-Bayne in the #21
-Stremme in the #30
-Bliss in the #32
-Leicht in the #35
-Josh Wise in the #37
-Yeley in the #38
-Bell in the #50 (won't be mentioning him again as he's now regular)
-Kvapil in the #55
-Starr in the #95


  147.   18fan posted:
  09.12.2011 - 11:18 pm
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Talon64, the one thing I will dispute about Kurt is that you said Brad
is doing better than Kurt ever did in the #2 car. While he has won more
than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009 Kurt was the only guy who
was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase and actually had a better
overall season than Mark Martin did. And until Watkins Glen this year,
even if Brad had more wins, Kurt was still much better than Brad,
although that is where the fortunes of the Penske drivers changed. I do
think Brad has a better title shot than Kurt, but its because of Kurt's
mentality, not Kurt's ability.


  148.   Spen posted:
  09.13.2011 - 12:25 am
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21ForeverDP: "who else has ever won the title and clearly not the most
consistent driver"

That happened plenty of times under the old systems. 1951 is probably
the most blatent example. Herb Thomas was far less consistent (and less
dominant) than Fonty Flock, but he won the Southern 500, which was worth
about six times as many points as a normal race. Other examples include
1953, where Lee Petty finished in the top twenty in every race (a feat
only equaled by Bill Elliott in 1988), but didn't win as much as Thomas.
1961 where Ned Jarrett won a quite inexplicable championship (Rex White
beat him in every single category, and Ned didn't win any of the big
races. I really have no clue what happened that year.). 1963 probably
shouldn't have gone to Weatherly, as Petty clearly had a better year,
but Joe finished higher in the races that mattered. Benny's '73
championship is a little questionable too, as aside from laps completed
(which is all that mattered that year) Cale had a slightly more
consistent, and far more dominant season. (If we still used the '73
point system, David Ragan would hav been the champion in 2008. I do
believe that takes the cake of most absurd idea ever.) '74, while
convoluted wasn't quite as bad as you make it out. At least Petty was
clearly in the running. Under the Latford system, Cale would have won by
9 points, but that wouldn't have been very hard to make up. It would
have been a far more exciting year under that system, that's for sure.

And even under the Latford system, there were years where the most
consistent driver didn't win. Bobby Allison in 1981, Mark Martin 1990
(though that was a penelty, not a point system faliure. Closer to 1950.)
Dale Earnhardt 1995. Mark Martin 1997. Mark Martin 2002 (notice a
pattern here?). Overall though, it had a higher accuracy level than the
previous systems (except for the 1968-71 one), and far better than the
chase.


  149.   Anonymous posted:
  09.13.2011 - 2:55 am
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"Lashing out at the media members is just a weak thing to do. That is
part of the deal they have to be prepared for. They are going to have
their every move dissected and asked questions they don't want to talk
about. It is a small price for the millions of dollars they get, their
lake homes, their top of the line motor homes, their private jets, and
girls that wouldn't be caught dead with them if they weren't rich."

Well it's not like they are rich for no reason. They earn their money by
doing something dangerous, that requires years and years of training and
enormous skill, puts them on the road and away from families for most of
the year, and comes with tremendous pressure to perform or else their
career is over and all of the time and effort put forth is essentially
wasted.

So I'm a bit more sympathetic to a driver when they get wrecked or have
a bad day, and aren't exactly in the mood to have a dozen microphones
and cameras shoved in their face as soon as they get out of their car.
More than likely they are thinking about how many points they lost and
how that could affect a season they've been working at for months, or
how much money they lost (think of the difference in winnings, some
bonehead move by another driver could cost you several thousand
dollars), or how their team is going to be affected, not how to be
polite to the reporter that's barely more than a paparazzi looking for a
quote and a story.


  150.   21ForeverDP posted:
  09.13.2011 - 6:41 am
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Thanks Spen, but notice that every year you pointed out had something
screwy happen (except for '81 and '95). Like in 51, the Southern 500
gave out 1250 points; Herb wound up with 5200. In the 50s and 60s, more
points were given out at the big tracks. Say, Menard and Smith got 125
points for their wins instead of 47; it was like that. Also, look at 64;
it was really bad.


  151.   Sean posted:
  09.13.2011 - 12:22 pm
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"Hear, hear! Both with the points and with the plate racing, the fans
got what they wanted, and promptly turned their complaining 180 degrees..."

Nobody wanted a so-called playoff with the exact same points system
otherwise. The fans (like me) who wanted a different points system
wanted a points system with larger gaps between the top positions that
reflected winning more, which NASCAR STILL didn't do (besides a nominal
bonus for the first-place finisher).

I don't get the argument that the most consistent driver should ALWAYS
win the championship. Why on earth should Bobby Allison have won the
1981 title over Darrell Waltrip when DW won 12 races and was ALMOST as
consistent? Why should Mark Martin have won the 1990 title over
Earnhardt when Earnhardt won 9 races and was ALMOST as consistent? And
Terry Labonte's 1996 title was particularly ludicrous. He and Gordon had
the same number of top 5s and top 10s and Gordon had EIGHT more wins. So
Labonte was being rewarded by finishing 17th in his bad races while
Gordon was being punished by finishing 37th in his. In almost EVERY
other series's points system which accurately measures winning, Gordon
would have had a runaway.

The issues with the points system were that there should be larger gaps
between the top positions and that the lowest positions shouldn't score
points at all, or at least the same number of points. This would cause
the value of a mid-pack finish versus DNF to diminish (like in any good
points system) and would increase the value of a top finish to keep
somebody from being able to win the title with 36 7th place finishes and
hardly ever leading. I'm not criticizing Kenseth here. He's been on both
sides of the coin, winning the most races in 2002 and finishing a
ridiculous eighth. Obviously that's what inspired him to become a points
racer in 2003 and years following... All the chase did was made it
possible to (basically) win the title with 26 12th place finishes
followed by 10 7th place finishes. BLAH.

CART points system: 20-16-14-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 (13th or lower - 0)
IRL points system: 50-40-35-32-30-28-26-24-22-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13
(18th-24th - 12, 25th-33rd - 10)
Old F1 points system: 10-6-4-3-2-1
Current F1 points system: 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1

Note that in every case the modern points systems give the second place
finisher about 80% of the winner's points, and give 4th-5th place more
or less half. THAT, in my opinion, is what a real points system is like.

In the F1/CART/IRL systems, the champion isn't always the guy who wins
the most races. Al Unser won the 1983 CART title despite winning one
race to Teo Fabi's four because he was more consistent. Bobby Rahal won
the 1992 title over Michael Andretti despite winning one fewer race (and
Michael being FAR more dominant in the races themselves) because Michael
wasn't reliable. Consistency still matters, but it's a better balance
than NASCAR's title has ever been.

I'm not saying the championship should be the guy with the most wins. No
way. Matt Kenseth certainly didn't deserve it in 2002 and Kasey Kahne
certainly didn't deserve it in 2006, but the modern NASCAR points system
is skewed waaaaaay towards consistency, as evidenced by Jeff Gordon and
Jimmie Johnson being the ONLY drivers to win titles in seasons they won
the most races since 1990(!). In a real points system, Ernie Irvan and
Geoff Bodine wouldn't have been close to winning titles in 1994, but
they would have been a lot better than 22nd and 16th instead of being
behind people like Lake Speed, Michael Waltrip, Ted Musgrave, and Kyle
Petty who had completely forgettable seasons. Wins not being awarded
significantly enough is one issue, but the bigger issue is that the back
half of the field is rewarded points at all...only the top 20 or top 25
should be. DNFs are penalized WAY too harshly to the point where it can
be better to get two 15th place finishes than having a win and a DNF.
That is a WRONG design for a title. Terry Labonte wasn't even more
consistent than Jeff Gordon (really), they had the same number of top 5s
and top 10s and Gordon had 8 more wins. That season should have shown
the flaws in that points system adequately. Now they have this 43-1
points system that is EVEN MORE EXTREME towards consistency and we're
supposed to be excited about it?

I REALLY don't get this argument that you shouldn't criticize change if
it's not the same change you wanted, but people have been throwing it
around for years. Most of the "classic" points system critics (I
believe) were like me (wanting wins to be rewarded more and back-half
finishes to be rewarded far less), wanting a change to the BASELINE of
the system. The chase uses the exact same baseline (and the current
points system uses an even more extreme one, because it removes the
marginal gaps for top 5 and top 10 positions), so why should people who
criticized the points system on THAT basis be happy about the chase just
because they wanted a change? That's nuts.


  152.   Scott B posted:
  09.13.2011 - 12:23 pm
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Spen,

I've always wonders about the 1961 points, too. As you say, Rex White
had an edge over Ned in every statisical category (including 7 wins to
1), but finished 2nd. Really, Joe Weatherly was the dominant driver that
season, with 9 wins in 25 starts, but running only about half the
schedule it was impossible for him to be the champion.

Then again, Lil' Joe won 5 of the last 10 races, so under the Chase
format, he kicked everyone's butt. :)


  153.   Dodge posted:
  09.13.2011 - 2:36 pm
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In a real points system, Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine wouldn't have been
close to winning titles in 1994, but they would have been a lot better
than 22nd and 16th instead of being behind people like Lake Speed,
Michael Waltrip, Ted Musgrave, and Kyle Petty who had completely
forgettable seasons.

Sean, the reason why Irvan was so far down in the 1994 points even
though he won so many races is because he had that life-threatening
accident. He was only about 34 points out up to that point. Can't really
factor Irvan in on that part.


  154.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.13.2011 - 3:32 pm
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@ 149, I don't have any problem with an occasional rant. We all do that
from time to time to people that don't deserve it. Hell, look at
Earnhardt's interview after the famous '89 North Wilkesboro race. That
was pretty childish. But that was, for the most part, an exception (he
was a jerk after the '95 Winston too). To bully reporters is something
entirely different. And to do it time after time, like Smoke, is also
something. He has been rallying against reporters since he arrived in
NASCAR. 12 years later, nothing has changed, and he's still complaining.
At what point do you realize you are just pissing into the wind? And
most importantly, at what point do you realize that is exactly what the
media wants? They play Tony like a fiddle. Then they get their
soundbites to rehash over and over again during the week.

"Mark Martin 1990 Dale Earnhardt 1995. Mark Martin 1997. Mark Martin
2002 (notice a pattern here?)."

Oh yeah. Mark's conservativeness has always cost him. That is the good
thing about the Latford system, it rewarded Top 5s and laps led quite a
bit. Obviously we all wish it rewarded wins more, but it did reward the
drivers who ran up front the most. Quite honestly, Mark in '90, '97, and
'02, and Dale in '95, they didn't deserve the Cup those years.


  155.   Mr X posted:
  09.13.2011 - 3:38 pm
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What I meant with post #138 is I think that NASCAR needs a points system
that rewards wins, leading laps, and being aggressive, but the team has
to make it happen. I believe winning 5 or more races in a year should
make up for some minor consistancy issues, however with the Chase format
winnig 5 or more races a year seems to buy you as many bad finishes as
you want.

I think that Matt definitely should've won the title in 2003 over Ryan,
Matts extra consistancy made up for his lack of wins.

In 1996 I'm biased, but Jeff should've won the title. Jeff and Terry had
virtually the same amount of consistancy, but Jeff had 10 wins to
Terry's 2, and 2314 to 973 laps led.

In 1990 a points penalty cost Mark Martin the title, however Dale
should've been able to win it regardless, Dale had the same number of
top 10's, two more top 5's, 3 times as many wins, and 2438 to 448 laps led.

There's no doubt that Darrell should've won the 1981 title, the extra 7
wins should've made up for the small difference in consistancy.

I took it upon myself to create my own points system
1st pays an extra 40 points giving a good bonus for winning.
1st 380
2nd 340
3rd 330
4th 320
5th 310
6th 300
7th 290
8th 280
9th 270
10th 260
11th 250
12th 240
From 2nd through 12th every position is worth 10 points
13th 232
14th 224
15th 216
16th 208
17th 200
18th 192
19th 184
20th 176
21st 168
22nd 160
23rd 152
24th 144
25th 136
26th 128
27th 120
From 12th through 27th every position is worth 8 points
28th 115
29th 110
30th 105
31st 100
32nd 95
33rd 90
34th 85
35th 80
36th 75
37th 70
38th 65
39th 60
40th 55
41st 50
42nd 45
43rd 40
From 27th on back every spot is worth 5 points

Bonus points would be awarded based on laps led. However they now range
from 1 to 20. The number of laps a driver leads is divided by the number
of laps in a race, giving a decimal number, multiply by 100 to get the
full percentage, divide by 5 and round up or down to the nearest full
number. That number is the number of bonus points that driver earned in
that race. 68 laps led in a 200 lap race means 7 bonus points. It would
reward trying to lead every lap.
Drivers would no longer lead just 1 lap to obtain half as many bonus
points as the guy who dominated the race. If a driver wants bonus
points, he has to lead laps.

A maximum points day becomes a simple 400 points, the minimum is 40, and
the difference is 360.


  156.   BLabonte47 posted:
  09.13.2011 - 4:16 pm
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You have to love the people of this site. Every driver is either
insecure or a mental nutcase except the few racing-reference darlings
(Brad Keselowski, Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon).


  157.   Scott B posted:
  09.13.2011 - 4:31 pm
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No different than any other profession, some folks deal with a bad day
at the office better than others. Most of use are fortunate enough not
to have our worst moments recorded and posted to the interwebz, though.


  158.   Talon64 posted:
  09.13.2011 - 4:44 pm
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"Talon64, the one thing I will dispute about Kurt is that you said Brad
is doing better than Kurt ever did in the #2 car. While he has won more
than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009 Kurt was the only guy who
was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase and actually had a better
overall season than Mark Martin did. And until Watkins Glen this year,
even if Brad had more wins, Kurt was still much better than Brad,
although that is where the fortunes of the Penske drivers changed. I do
think Brad has a better title shot than Kurt, but its because of Kurt's
mentality, not Kurt's ability."

True, although Denny was really the best of the rest that year; 2 engine
failures yet he still finished 5th in points thanks to his 2 Chase wins
(but the wreck at California was 100% his fault). But that was by far
Kurt's best season with Penske and the closest he's come to his Roush days.

But I'm sure it helped that he had David Stremme and Sam Hornish Jr. as
his teammates, it's probably the most in-control he's ever felt at Penske.


  159.   00andJoe posted:
  09.13.2011 - 6:01 pm
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One thing about the Busch/Menzer situation that I wondered about was
this: he had to know Kurt has a short temper, and then to (apparently)
get mad when Busch declines to comment and shout about it being a
legitmate question - did he -want- to make Kurt angry for some reason?


"I REALLY don't get this argument that you shouldn't criticize change if
it's not the same change you wanted"
Well, it's not so much with the point system, but with the plate races,
the criticism of the way things are now is, it seems, largely wanting
the way it was (that was ranted and raved about then) -back-. (I.E.
before: "These huge packs have to be broken up!" *two-car tango arrives*
"Give us the huge packs back!")


  160.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.13.2011 - 8:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (1)      (0)

Mr X, I am glad you mentioned the idea of awarding points for laps led
based on the number they lead instead of arbitrarily giving the same
amount of points to every that leads laps, no matter how many, with the
exception of whoever leads the most laps whose points are doubled. I
like your idea. The one I have mentioned before is one point for every
5% of the race led, based on the number of scheduled laps. For example,
at Martinsville, they get a point for every 25 laps led. So Jeff Burton
would have got 20 bonus points just for leading at that '00 New
Hampshire race.

Overall though, under the Latford system (full seasons), I feel like it
crowned the deserving champ all but once (in '96). Funny thing, he
created it on a napkin in a restaurant. They put their best computers to
work trying to come up with a good way to format the cha$e, and every
single incarnation has failed. That is pretty funny to me. Kinda like
how they put their best computers to work designing new tracks like
Fontana and Texas, both of which suck, yet some peanut farmer jumps on
his bulldozer in the late 40s, carves out a track on his land in
Darlington, SC which has to be wedged beside a minnow pond, and the
result has been classic racing for over 60 years. Go figure.


  161.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.13.2011 - 8:38 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Also, I have a really bizarre theory about the 1990 Winston Cup battle
and Mark's 46 point penalty. I think that penalty was almost the best
thing that could have happened to them. For pretty much the whole second
half of the year, his lead over Dale in the standings was right around
45 points or less, not a whole lot under the Latford system (Dale ended
up erasing that in just one race at Phoenix). I think Dale and Richard
looked at these upstarts in Mark and Roush Racing and expected them to
fold under the pressure of them being close. So they didn't really press
until the second to last race in Phoenix when it dawned on them "Holy
shit, we are about out of time!". Remember, this was before we realized
just how good Mark truly was, despite a solid 1989 season.

I think, had that margain been 90 points instead in the second half of
the year, they really would have thrown what they had at them earlier.
It seems to me that Jack almost unwittingly lulled Dale and Richard to
sleep with that penalty. Had Mark been aggressive in the last few laps
at Phoenix when he had fresh tires, but kept letting slower cars on
older tires block him, it might have worked (accidentally of course).
But Dale took the points lead, then Mark and Jack finally DID crumble
under the pressure of that black cloud at the famous Atlanta test.

Just a theory though.


  162.   Red posted:
  09.13.2011 - 10:11 pm
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Some thoughts on the points system debate:

For those in the pro-consistency corner, I think there's one major
factor that often gets overlooked: the effects of racing luck.

Obviously there's no way to definitively quantify luck, but I believe it
plays a much larger role in race outcomes than most people realize. Poor
finishes and DNF's are often a result of circumstances outside the
driver's control, such as being caught in someone else's wreck, or
suffering a random mechaincal failure. A fast car can get burned by a
caution during a cycle of pit stops, or being stuck on the wrong fuel
strategy because of the way the cautions fall.

In that light, I think it's very unfair to put such a harsh penalty on
poor finishes, considering many of those finishes are just plain bad
luck. Conversely, a driver's good finishes are much more indicative of
his true performance, and are far more predictive of future performance.

That's why I'm not all that impressed with seasons like Kenseth's 2003
or Bobby Labonte's 2000. They were strong, yes, but their titles were
won by avoiding the bad luck that struck down their rivals, not by
outrunning them.

Lets' look at the seasons bookending Labonte's title run. Here are the
number of times Bobby finished 30th or worse in each year:

1997: 5
1998: 6
1999: 2
2000: 0
2001: 5
2002: 10
2003: 10

I wonder, if consistently avoiding poor finishes was really some magical
skill, then how come Bobby couldn't reproduce those results in any other
season? Because it's NOT a skill - it's luck. The same thing is true for
Kenseth, or any other driver to win a title based on plodding consistency.




  163.   Red posted:
  09.13.2011 - 10:36 pm
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Paradoxically, I think one of the most overrated seasons in recent
memory was Jeff Gordon's 2007 season. Forget the chase, I don't think
Jeff was any better than Jimmie that year; rather, he was just luckier.

Gordon had only one really bad finish, a 41st at Charlotte after being
caught in a wreck. Meanwhile, Johnson had finishes of 39th, 38th, 42nd,
37th, and 39th, and none of them were really his fault. His 37th at
Chicago came after being the dominant car and leading 82 laps before
succumbing to engine failure.

They were virtually tied in laps led (Gordon 1300, Johnson 1290), but
Jimmie was more dominant in the categories that really measure a great
season:

Wins
Johnson 10
Gordon 6

Podiums
Johnson 17
Gordon 14

Driver Rating
Johnson 110.3
Gordon 108.6

The point I'm trying to make is that Jeff and Jimmie's 2007 performances
were about equal, but Jeff was simply luckier and that's why he scored
353 more points over the full season.

Here's Jeff's seven year run of 30th or worse finishes:

2004: 6
2005: 12
2006: 7
2007: 1
2008: 7
2009: 2
2010: 4

Again, if "consistency" was a true, repeatable skill, then why couldn't
Jeff consistently avoid bad finishes in all his other seasons? Even guys
like Mark Martin and Terry Labonte who are known for their ability to
take car of equipment had plenty of seasons that were riddled by DNF's
and 30-something finishes.

I apologize if I sound preachy, but as a statistically inclined person,
I know that human nature wants to find an explanation for everything
that happens, and it's hard for people to accept just how large a role
random chance plays in almost everything we do, including racing. Rant over.


  164.   Mr X posted:
  09.13.2011 - 10:52 pm
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Red, my response to you is what the King Richard Petty said, to be
successful in NASCAR racing you have to be lucky and good.


  165.   Spen posted:
  09.14.2011 - 1:03 am
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"but the bigger issue is that the back half of the field is rewarded
points at all...only the top 20 or top 25 should be"

The TM Master Cup series on Youtube is only awarding points to the top
twenty finishers. And with that system, Alexis Rainsford has a decent
shot at winning the title while skipping half the season. It just seems
wrong to me that you can finish 21st and not gain a single point on
someone who didn't even bother to show up.

And wouldn't a system like that just punish bad finishes even worse than
the current system?


  166.   18fan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 2:02 am
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The biggest problem with the current points system is that there is way
too small of a gap between the positions in the top 10. Personally I
didn't really see what was so difficult to understand the Latford
system. Once you knew the increments, it was simple, but casual fans
didn't want to know the increment system and wanted something simple,
which they got. In no other point system that I know of outside of my
local short track does the gap between 2nd and 3rd place points equal
the gap between positions at the back of the pack.


  167.   18fan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 2:03 am
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In my previous post it should read "Personally I didn't really see what
was so difficult to understand about the Latford system."


  168.   Mr X posted:
  09.14.2011 - 3:04 am
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The Latford system was incredibly simple I thought, I had it virtually
memorized. I loved it, and I dont care what position its for, but if
Driver A finishes better then Driver B, Driver A deserves more points.
The only thing I dislike is that I think a more complex points system
usually does a better job of giving credit where credit is due. Fixing
the car is just another way championship teams show their strength, they
never quit, if they can they get the car back out on the track, they log
laps and gain spots and points. JJ at Texas in 2009 is a great example,
as is Carl Edwards earlier this year at Pocono, I don't know if I've
even seen at team drop a valve, take the cylinder head off, put the
engine back together, and finish the race.

Great conspiracy theory by Jimmy Spencer on Nascar Race Hub tonight on
Paul Menard's late spin at RIR


  169.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 5:57 am
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Red, yes. But Johnson SUCKED in every other category. 17 podiums, yes,
but those were 17 shots in the dark. Jeff, on the other hand, ran top-10
week in, week out. He put up the most incredibly consistent season in 30
years! While Johnson actually sucked worse percent wise than Jeff did
when he lost to Terry in 1996. There were no complaints in either case
though, because there are just as many Jeff haters as likers and they
cancel out. In 2007, Jeff averaged 3.5 more positions a race than
Jimmie, an all time high under Latford's system. That means Jeff
finished 151 spots ahead of Jimmie for the whole year, plus Jimmie only
outscored Jeff by 21 points in the Chase, which would have been enough
for Jimmie to barely finish second in the points while Jeff would have
clinched at Texas. Sorry, but the only category Jimmie was better in
that year was wins and podiums, and the point of the Latford system is
to reward consistency. They felt it was wrong for the consistent driver
to lost out so bad while being more consistent just cause the other
driver more often.


  170.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 5:59 am
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If I ran the points, though, I would give 10000 points for win, and 1
bonus point for every lap led at a short track and 1 mile track, and 2
for laps led at the intermediates, and 3 for laps led at Daytona,
Talladega, and Pocono.


  171.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.14.2011 - 8:20 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Interesting stats Red. I think the deal with that is, every now and
then, everything just comes together for a season like Bobby in '00 and
Matt in '03. Remember that race at Sears Point in 2003 when Matt lost
the carcass of one of his tires only about 50 feet from pit road?
Sometimes it is just your year.

But I agree. I really like your take on the 2007 season. Although I also
love the Latford system, the biggest issue I have is that it punished
bad races much more than it rewarded good finishes.


  172.   Sean posted:
  09.14.2011 - 12:02 pm
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"Sean, the reason why Irvan was so far down in the 1994 points even
though he won so many races is because he had that life-threatening
accident. He was only about 34 points out up to that point. Can't really
factor Irvan in on that part."

My point about Irvan is that he was very unfairly punished for not being
able to run the last 11 races of that season. I guess I do think
somebody who is dominant over 20 races should beat someone who is
mediocre over 31 races... I designed a points system in my head that
reflected winning more while not completely ignoring consistency -
Earnhardt still won 1994 but Irvan went up to 4th and Bodine went up to
10th. No, not title threats, but that comes closer to measuring the
performance over a SEASON in my mind.

"It just seems wrong to me that you can finish 21st and not gain a
single point on someone who didn't even bother to show up."

Not to me. My biggest problem with the Latford points system is that
mid-pack finishes are rewarded too much. Two 18th place finishes (109
points) were equivalent to a first place finish and leading the most
laps (185 points) plus a last place finish (34 points). The problem is
that the gap between positions should decrease through the field, not be
essentially equivalent for the entire grid. As above, somebody like
Ernie Irvan in 1994 would be losing 88 points a week to somebody
finishing 25th...since he missed 11 races, that means they would gain an
equivalent of 5.5 wins over the rest of the season. That is far too much.

If you still want to go with the entire field scoring points, at the
very least, I'd want to see 21st-43rd or 26th-43rd scoring the same
points as the IRL does it giving 12 points to 18th-24th and 10 points to
25th-33rd. That is at least a fairer way of . Give a nominal points
value to people who start in the race, okay. But it should be so that it
would take five or six mid-pack or worse finishes to equal one win...not
two. This also solves another of the things that to me is unprofessional
about NASCAR - people returning to the track many laps down. Get in a
Talladega big one? Stay off the track rather than run around 50 laps
down to gain two positions on the track... This would have also rendered
the Carl Edwards punting Brad Keselowski into outer space at Atlanta
moot. If Edwards did not have any incentive to BE on the track, there
would have been no caution. I think it's kind of crazy that there was a
huge gap between mid-pack and last AND a huge gap between last and
missing the race. They at least fixed the latter with the current points
system.

"And wouldn't a system like that just punish bad finishes even worse
than the current system?"

No, it wouldn't. It would decrease the gap between a mid-pack finish and
a DNF so that essentially DNFs would be treated as mediocre finishes. A
bad day is a bad day either way. Mediocre finishes are what would be
punished. In other words, I'd want to stop the flaw in the points system
that allows Jeremy Mayfield in '05, Brian Vickers in '09, Matt Kenseth
last year, and Junior this year to sneak into the chase despite not
really being competitive at all, or give Terry Labonte the title over
Jeff Gordon in '96.

I think the Latford system got it definitely wrong three times: 1985,
1993, and 1996, although I can see why somebody would argue for Waltrip
instead of Elliott in '85 or Earnhardt instead of Wallace in '93. There
are other seasons that would be inverted based on the points system I
want, admittedly (1980 - Earnhardt vs. Yarborough - you can make a case
for either really, 1992 - Kulwicki vs. Elliott - ditto), but I think the
drivers in those title chases might have driven differently with a
points system that awarded winning more so there's no saying that those
would necessarily be inverted. 2003 - Ryan Newman would win over Matt
Kenseth according to the system I want, which I definitely think is a
mistake, but I think all in all, a points system that punishes mediocre
finishes and rewards good ones more would come far closer to measuring
actual performance, especially when you look at the top ten versus just
the champion...


  173.   Sean posted:
  09.14.2011 - 12:04 pm
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Oops, I didn't finish this sentence:

That is at least a fairer way of giving everyone in the field points.


  174.   Scott B posted:
  09.14.2011 - 12:14 pm
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I doubt you will ever see NASCAR adopt a points system in Cup that cuts
off after the top 20 positions. If they did, they'd have to abandon the
goal of always having a 43 car field, or live with start & parks on an
even larger scope that we've seen the last couple of seasons. They also
would not want to put themselves in a position where a crowd favorite
faces damage or mechanical problems early in the race, and the team
doesn't have motivation to put the car back on the track, as in Mr X's
examples.

The "every position counts" credo has been with NASCAR for a long time,
and in the TV era there's plenty of motivation to keep it alive,
regardless of whatever other points adjustments are made.


  175.   Kinetic posted:
  09.14.2011 - 12:21 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

So apparently Richard Childress told Menard to bring out the last
caution. He would be a guy to pull an amateur stunt like that. What a
joke. I'm sure Nascar won't investigate, because it would be damaging to
the sport.


  176.   Dodge posted:
  09.14.2011 - 3:03 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

My point about Irvan is that he was very unfairly punished for not being
able to run the last 11 races of that season. I guess I do think
somebody who is dominant over 20 races should beat someone who is
mediocre over 31 races... I designed a points system in my head that
reflected winning more while not completely ignoring consistency -
Earnhardt still won 1994 but Irvan went up to 4th and Bodine went up to
10th. No, not title threats, but that comes closer to measuring the
performance over a SEASON in my mind.

I agree. I see what your saying.


  177.   Scott B posted:
  09.14.2011 - 3:44 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Dodge,

NASCAR designed the points system, especially from the era when Winston
became involved and later, to deliberately punish drivers who don't run
the full schedule. Fair or not, they expect their title contenders to
run every week.

An interesting idea along those lines, though, might be giving drivers a
few "mulligans" where they can drop a certain number of bad finishes out
of their results for the season. The Rookie of the Year Award has done
this for years.

A last place finish would still be worth more than a missed race, and
30th would still be worth more than 43rd, so there pressure to be
consistant is reduced without completely taking away the motivation to
run every event and place as well as possible each week.


  178.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.14.2011 - 4:45 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

RPM is no longer interested in Bowyer, it looks like he will go drive
MWR's shitboxes. Seriously Clint, go crawling back to Richard right now.
MWR is where talented drivers go for their careers to die. Does he not
see Reut and Truex, two talented drivers, struggling just to stay
relevant over in Mikey's pieces of shit? MWR is just like everything
else Mikey has ever been a part of (racing, owning, broadcasting, being
married, honoring a fallen friend), a lot of flash, attention and
publicity, but no substance, and ultimately a failure.


  179.   Talon64 posted:
  09.14.2011 - 5:01 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"If you still want to go with the entire field scoring points, at the
very least, I'd want to see 21st-43rd or 26th-43rd scoring the same
points as the IRL does it giving 12 points to 18th-24th and 10 points to
25th-33rd. That is at least a fairer way of . Give a nominal points
value to people who start in the race, okay. But it should be so that it
would take five or six mid-pack or worse finishes to equal one win...not
two. This also solves another of the things that to me is unprofessional
about NASCAR - people returning to the track many laps down. Get in a
Talladega big one? Stay off the track rather than run around 50 laps
down to gain two positions on the track... This would have also rendered
the Carl Edwards punting Brad Keselowski into outer space at Atlanta
moot. If Edwards did not have any incentive to BE on the track, there
would have been no caution. I think it's kind of crazy that there was a
huge gap between mid-pack and last AND a huge gap between last and
missing the race. They at least fixed the latter with the current points
system."

Interesting idea; I've always liked Indycar's point system, not only for
that but because of the big gap in points in the top 5 positions. That,
plus a shorter season, is why their championship battles have been so
great the past few seasons.

Here's my stab at a new point system with that idea in mind:

1st: 51
2nd: 43(84% of a win, as little as 83% with MLL bp for winner)
3rd: 40
4th: 38
5th: 36
6th: 34
7th: 32
8th: 30 (58% of win, versus 60% for 5th in Indycar which is the
equivalent finishing position between the series)
9th: 28
10th: 26
11th: 24
12th: 23
13th: 22
14th: 21
15th: 20
16th: 19
17th: 18
18th: 17
19th: 16
20th: 15
21st-32nd: 14
33rd-43rd: 13

and then if you DNQ the team still gets owner points, 12 for 44th, 11
for 45th and so on like the old NASCAR point system.

More separation in the top 10 between positions, especially in the top 5
and for the win.


  180.   18fan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 6:51 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Still, if in 29 years from 1975-2003(From the first season the Latford
system was used through the final year before the Chase), the Latford
system only "got the championship wrong" 3 times(I think its twice
because Earnhardt was slightly better than Wallace in '93, just Rusty's
absolute domination of the short tracks and 1 mile tracks make him look
better in the stats), that's basically once every 10 years that it got
it wrong. I think that's pretty good.


  181.   Red posted:
  09.14.2011 - 7:23 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Remember that race at Sears Point in 2003 when Matt lost the carcass of
one of his tires only about 50 feet from pit road?"

It's funny, that is exactly the moment I was thinking of from Kenseth's
title run that inspired to write that post. The other was Matt finishing
9th in the second Michigan race with a 20th place car because a bunch of
guys ran out of fuel in front of him.

In Bobby's case, the fall Martinsville race where he spun out twice and
still finished 10th is what sticks in my mind, along with him winning
the Southern 500 without leading a single green flag lap.


  182.   Red posted:
  09.14.2011 - 7:42 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Red, my response to you is what the King Richard Petty said, to be
successful in NASCAR racing you have to be lucky and good."

I agree with this statement. However, I believe an appropriate points
system should strongly emphasize the "good", and minimize the effects of
"lucky."


  183.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.14.2011 - 11:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"However, I don't consider JJ's championships a joke because of the
Chase. He and Chad Knaus may have adapted to the system quicker than
others, but everyone knew what the rules were going to be when each
season started."

Agreed. I don't fault Jimmie nor the #48 team for their dominance as
they have earned it by figuring out the system better than every other
team. It's not like NASCAR came up to the drivers mid-season and said,
"Guess what? The points are going to be reset after 26 races, leaving
you guys to fight it out over the final 10!"

"While he has won more than Kurt ever has at Penske, remember in 2009
Kurt was the only guy who was close to the Hendrick cars in the Chase"

I agree with Talon's post about what kind of person Kurt is 100%, but
this statement is true too. Take the Hendrick cars away, Kurt's your
2009 champion. I do think Brad could be on his way to maybe having a
season like that if he manages to keep up his momentum and carry it into
seasons to come.

"More than likely they are thinking about how many points they lost and
how that could affect a season they've been working at for months"

What happened in the first 26 races will no longer matter, it's now the
final 10 that count. I seriously don't know why Kurt was so mad
considering the incident hurt Jimmie's race much more than his.

"I don't get the argument that the most consistent driver should ALWAYS
win the championship. Why on earth should Bobby Allison have won the
1981 title over Darrell Waltrip when DW won 12 races and was ALMOST as
consistent? Why should Mark Martin have won the 1990 title over
Earnhardt when Earnhardt won 9 races and was ALMOST as consistent? And
Terry Labonte's 1996 title was particularly ludicrous. He and Gordon had
the same number of top 5s and top 10s and Gordon had EIGHT more wins. So
Labonte was being rewarded by finishing 17th in his bad races while
Gordon was being punished by finishing 37th in his. In almost EVERY
other series's points system which accurately measures winning, Gordon
would have had a runaway."

I have on more than one occasion said that consistency is crucial
towards winning a championship, especially if no one else can put up
similar numbers despite more wins (i.e. Kenseth in 2002, Newman and Kurt
Busch in 2003). But those years you mentioned, that opens up a whole new
debate. I'll explain my stance on those years:

1981: DW definitely deserves the title as consistency and domination
were on his side. Bobby was good, but DW was better that season.

1990: See 1981. Like DW, Dale had both consistency and domination on his
side. Besides, Mark Martin had plenty of chances to win championships
throughout his career but he was always too nice on the racetrack to
close the deal.

1996: I respect the hell out of Texas Terry, but Gordon had a better
year when you look at it. Jeff scored EIGHT more victories than Terry
and had the same amount of top 5's and top 10's. Their seasons were
identical in terms of consistency, but I definitely think Jeff had the
better year because he won a lot more. Jeff also led over 2000 laps
while Terry led a little bit over 950. The reason Terry edged him out
was because Jeff's DNF races had worse finishes than Terry's DNF races,
plus the fact that Jeff had 2 more DNF's than Terry.


  184.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.14.2011 - 11:39 pm
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If Bowyer goes to MWR, I really will have to question his
decision-making skills. They did seem to break through in 2009 and 2010,
as they had respectable years. But they have regressed greatly this
season, with Reut and Truex struggling most weeks. Truex has 8 top 10's
this year and is 17th in points, but MWR hasn't shown great overall
strength.

If that is his only other option, he's not smart if he burns his bridge
with RCR.


  185.   18fan posted:
  09.14.2011 - 11:58 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Remember Jeff Gordon was 43rd in points in 1996 after two races after a
42nd and 40th place finish yet led the points by 111 with four races to
go until he had the engine problem at Charlotte.


  186.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  09.15.2011 - 3:50 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I doubt you will ever see NASCAR adopt a points system in Cup that cuts
off after the top 20 positions. If they did, they'd have to abandon the
goal of always having a 43 car field, or live with start & parks on an
even larger scope that we've seen the last couple of seasons. They also
would not want to put themselves in a position where a crowd favorite
faces damage or mechanical problems early in the race, and the team
doesn't have motivation to put the car back on the track, as in Mr X's
examples."

Perhaps something that could be considered is only awarding points to
cars that finish the race. This is used in the V8 Supercar series -
quite well IMO - and the 2010 title was actually decided in perhaps one
of the most epic and intense manners I've ever seen specifically because
of this rule.

However, the attrition rate in NASCAR is quite high and it is unlikely
that such a system would ever be adopted.


  187.   Dodge posted:
  09.15.2011 - 8:45 am
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It sounds like the reason why Bowyer may end up leaving RCR is more
sponsor driven. It has been reported that 5 Hour Energy will sponsor
Bowyer but they only want about 18 races. There is also a rumor that he
will replace Ragan in the 6 and Ragan would drive the 3rd RPM car. Only
time will tell where he will end up. RCR said that if Bowyer leaves,
more than likely, they will go back to a 3 car team.

As for MWR, the ONLY talent they have is Truex. He is much better that
Reutimann even though Reut has 2 wins compared to 1 for Truex, IMO.


  188.   Scott B posted:
  09.15.2011 - 11:05 am
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Gibbs should give Logano the boot and put Clint in the #20. I'd actually
believe he shops at Home Depot.

That won't really happen, but it'd be a good fit.


  189.   Dodge posted:
  09.15.2011 - 3:55 pm
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That is a good idea Scott B. We heard for years before Logano turned 18
that he was the real deal. This will be his third full season at seasons
end and he has 1 total win in Cup and that was a rain-shortened race
win. Maybe JGR should consider putting Logano in a full season
Nationwide Series. It appears that he may just be in over his head in
the Cup Series.


  190.   Talon64 posted:
  09.15.2011 - 4:38 pm
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Reutimann's problem is that he came into Cup too late; he was already 37
by the time that he moved up to Cup full time and now he's 41. Guys like
Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jeff Burton and Mark Martin have proven that
drivers can still be successful in their 40's but I don't think
Reutimann is really in their class.

Still, he's done a hell of a job to win races for MWR and be the top guy
there up until this year.


  191.   Cooper posted:
  09.15.2011 - 5:36 pm
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"188. Scott B posted:
09.15.11 - 11:05 am"
"189. Dodge posted:
09.15.11 - 3:55 pm"
I agree with both of you. Joey Logano has had the longest leash in
sports. He's had plenty of time to prove himself and he still hasn't
done it. Casey Atwood got the hook after one year when in reality he
showed more than Joey did. The reason I compare the two is because both
of them got rushed into the Cup Series way to soon.

And if I'm Joey, I need to consider my own career as well. Do I really
want to spend my next 5 years as the third wheel on a two wheel bike?
Hopefully not. I actually find it funny that Joey is still driving the
#20 car. When I went to the NASCAR race at Michigan, there was
nobody(and I mean nobody) at his souvenir trailer!Complete ghost town.
Which isn't surprising, since the target market for Home Depot is middle
aged house owners not 20 year old video gamers. It doesn't work...


  192.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.15.2011 - 5:55 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"As for MWR, the ONLY talent they have is Truex. He is much better that
Reutimann even though Reut has 2 wins compared to 1 for Truex, IMO."

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Obviously we don't know if he
could light it up on a good team (a team that doesn't field buckets of
shit like MWR does), and we will probably never know. But I feel that he
has overachieved big time in Cup. He has been a Top 15 driver for the
past 4 years, and even got an outright win despite driving for MWR's
cars which, in case I haven't mentioned this before, are pieces of shit.

I agree with you guys about Logano. I mentioned this at length on his
driver page, but things are obviously not working out one bit with him
and JGR. And it is creating a ton of unhappiness. JGR can't be happy,
Home Depot is openly unhappy (they very publically courted Carl), Zippy
couldn't possibly be any unhappier. The only person happy about Joey
being in the #20 car is Kyle Busch. With Joey in that car, and
floundering, it has allowed Kyle over the past two year to, for the
first time in his career, only have one teammate ahead of him in the
final standings instead of two like has happened every year from '05 to
'08. The last two years, only Denny has finished ahead of him.

"When I went to the NASCAR race at Michigan, there was nobody(and I mean
nobody) at his souvenir trailer!Complete ghost town. Which isn't
surprising, since the target market for Home Depot is middle aged house
owners not 20 year old video gamers. It doesn't work..."

Exactly. I don't dislike Joey, but he is a hard guy to relate to. He is
a rich kid from Connecticut that has had everything handed to him. The
NASCAR audience can't relate, and the home improvement portion REALLY
can't relate. You are right, it is just a horrible match. And nobody
buys Home Depot Racing gear anymore. I've noticed the same thing at
Martinsville.


  193.   Talon64 posted:
  09.15.2011 - 6:22 pm
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Check this out, I made a table with Excel of every Chase drivers'
average finish at each of the Chase tracks and combined:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n293/talon64/AZaRgeWCIAAQu2Ujpglarge.jpg

The two most obvious things that you'd have already guessed is that
Jimmie's really really good at the Chase tracks and that Talladega's
going to be a crap shoot.

The most interesting thing is that Kyle Busch has the 2nd worst combined
average finish of anyone at the Chase tracks, 17.4 with Homestead and
Kansas being places that he's really struggled at.

And obviously Keselowski's last because of his early struggles at
Penske, but I thought it'd be even worse than that to be honest.


  194.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.15.2011 - 6:24 pm
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BTW, it looks like the Menard spin at the end was ordered.


  195.   Talon64 posted:
  09.15.2011 - 7:53 pm
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Jeff Gordon claimed it was, then Kevin Harvick said no and flung back
that HMS was trying everything to keep Dale Jr. on the lead lap so he'd
make the Chase.

Then NASCAR said they haven't "seen or heard anything" that Menard
intentionally brought out the caution.

While RCR couldn't have predicted that Harvick would win the battle off
pit road (or that Carl would be right on his bumper for the last few
laps), Harvick really needed a fresh set of tires to take another stab
at Gordon. So the reasoning is plenty plausible.


  196.   Clint Bowyer posted:
  09.15.2011 - 11:05 pm
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I feel like committing career suicide.


  197.   murb posted:
  09.15.2011 - 11:07 pm
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I'm definitely disappointed to see Clint Bowyer signing with MWR (most
likely that is, several news outlets are reporting it). Clint's in my
top 5 favorite drivers, and unfortunately, now he will most likely spend
the next few years in the 13th-17th points range. And that's if he's
really lucky, and doesn't have shit luck like Reutimann and Truex have
had this year. I was hoping to see him go to RPM, because AJ has
definitely been on an upswing lately, and Marcos has showed he can get
it done for the most part. But I guess the racing business just happens
that way some times...

And as for the whole "Menard Spun Intentionally" theory, I'm sort of
mixed. I've been a huge fan of RCR and a huge fan of Harvick for several
years. So it's a little disappointing to see Kevin's win get a little
overshadowed by that. But you have to remember, he had the best car all
night, bar none. You can't argue with 202 of 400 laps led. And plus, he
had to hold off Carl. So it wasn't like that last caution was the sole
reason he won the race. It wasn't like that caution just caused him to
back into it (kind of like he did at Charlotte.) So I believe it was a
fair win, and those guys earned it. Of course, I am a 29 fan, and no one
else on here is I don't think. So I'm totally prepared for any verbal
lynching that I have coming my way just for that reason, lol

But I'm sure several other guys would have been saying the same thing
that Jeff did afterwards, so I definitely can't blame Jeff.


  198.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.16.2011 - 1:01 am
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I also respect the opinions of those who think David Reutimann isn't a
good driver, but I too, disagree with them. I think Reutimann is a
talented driver. He has won twice while driving for MWR (NOT an easy
task mind you, although his Coke 600 win was as big of a fluke as flukes
get). Remember, he flat out beat everyone else for his Chicago win last
year. Sure, he's not been that great this year but he's shown flashes,
such as finishing 2nd at Kentucky. And he was in the top 10 at Bristol I
believe, when David Stremme decided to just wreck him for no reason.

The truth is, I'm also very impressed with Truex this season. I honestly
thought he would be outside the top 20 in points right now given how the
early season went for him, but he's now 17th.

But I must agree with everyone about Joey Logano. He had the early
struggles due to inexperience and being rushed in '09, lucked into a
rain-shortened victory at Loudon, turned around his performance to
finish the year strong and started off '10 that way, seeming to be the
sport's next young threat. But he has just bottomed out this year!
Another problem for him is that he just comes off as this boring, rich
kid who has never had to claw his ass off for anything, hence his boring
personality.


  199.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.16.2011 - 1:08 am
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As for the "Menard spun intentionally" theory, I'd like to think he did
not, but recent actions by the RCR team have been quite immature (RC
punching Kyle, Austin Dillon mocking Kyle's guitar smash), so the sad
part is, it would be hard to defend them.


  200.   Mr X posted:
  09.16.2011 - 2:06 am
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Well Clint Bowyer, you've had a long successful career and now its time
for you to gracefully step away and retire... Oh wait, no you haven't,
you should keep racing where you've been racing, RCR. In an off season
RCR is still better then MWR is in a good season. This will go down as
the worst decision of your now drastically shortened career.

The only good that will come of this is that RCR will be back to being a
3 car team. I dont see why any team in NASCAR today wants to be a 4 car
operation. With the exception of Roush Racing in 2005 no 4 or 5 car team
has ever had all 4 or 5 cars running well, and equal to each other on a
week by week basis. No team has ever managed the feat on a year by year
basis.

With a single car team, there isn't enough data being pulled in because
of the lack of track time. A 2 car team can manage, but its difficult,
Penske for example. A 3 car team is perfect because you have lots of
track time between the 3 cars, lots of data. All the cars are built in
the same shop, and its actually possible to get the personnel in place,
not just from an engineering standpoint but to create chemistry aswell.
A four car team is just too much, getting all the personnel in place,
and getting four fleets of racecars to keep up with whats trending in
the speed world is too difficult. Getting all the sponsorship in place,
and keeping the drivers happy is borderline impossible.

Ever since HMS became a four car team in 2002, every year there has been
at least one car that was out to lunch, usually the 25/88. Roush has
always had at least one weak link, and now that RCR is a four car team,
Bowyer wants to leave because of a lack of performance, Burton is having
the worst year of his career, and Harvick was more impressive last year.


  201.   Dodge posted:
  09.16.2011 - 7:54 am
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I personally don't think Reutimann would ever make a Chase even if he
would leave MWR. I will give you that he is a decent driver, just not
one that can win multiple races in 1 year. Also, he does have a ton of
bad luck. I may be wrong though.

Plus, I think Reutimann may be too loyal to the Waltrip's. Remember,
when Toyota went to the Truck Series, Darrell Waltrip gave him a
full-time ride, before that, he was only running 5 or less Busch races a
year. Then when Toyota moved to Cup, Michael hired Reut. Maybe instead
of keep resigning with MWR, he should consider another team. Then, if he
was impressive, I'd have to tuck my tail and admit I was wrong.


  202.   Anonymous posted:
  09.16.2011 - 11:37 am
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I'm with Jeff Gordon, there is something fishy about the Menard radio
chatter at the end of that race. Why switch to the private channel at
all? There was no need. Even if his spin was unintentional, they were
still talking about needing or not needing a caution, and Menard was
planning on wrecking Kenseth as retaliation, depending when and if that
caution would be most advantageous for Harvick. Even if it wasn't
technically fixing the race, it still strongly looks like there was a
small amount of conspiracy to fix the race. And Harvick's deflection of
the question back on to Hendrick motorsports, rather than just radically
denying it, didn't help his case. It was nothing more than just pointing
fingers at someone else when all the fingers were being pointed at you.


  203.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.16.2011 - 11:42 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Here is the audio from Menard's channel:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog/from_the_marbles/post/Did-Menard-spin-on-orders-Listen-and-judge-for-?urn=nascar-wp3953

Sounds pretty damning to me. Them giving Paul constant updates and
whether or not they need a caution. Paul even asked a time or two about
needing a caution or not. All I can say is that is one of the cheapest
and weakest things I have ever seen. I have no sympathy for HMS, they
have done way worse stuff. But to have these team orders as Kevin
clearly needed a caution since his short run setup was untouchable, that
is weak. Sad to see what was once one of the proudest organizations
reduced to this.


  204.   RCRandPenskeGuy posted:
  09.16.2011 - 1:06 pm
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Actually Dodge, you bring up a good point about his loyalty. David IS
too loyal for his own good, much like Ward Burton was when he was with
BDR. It started to bite Ward when BDR started going downhill. Reut
better be careful or he could suffer the same fate.

It remains unseen whether or not he could perform better with a better
team, but I tend to believe he could.


  205.   00andJoe posted:
  09.16.2011 - 1:34 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Chicago entry list update: T.J. Bell has withdrawn.


"David IS too loyal for his own good, much like Ward Burton was when he
was with BDR."
Absolutely on both counts. The only good that came out of sticking with
BDR for Ward was a Daytona 500 - which is admittedly a big "good", but
he turned down -lots- of good rides from other teams (including an offer
from RCR, my memory wants to say!) to stick with them. Loyalty can, and
should, be admirable, but not to the point of career suicide.


  206.   Mr X posted:
  09.16.2011 - 2:33 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I just wish NASCAR wasn't afraid to park a driver for a week over
bullshit like what Paul Menard did. Send him away for a week to think
about what he did.
Shame on Richard Childress and Paul for doing this, they were 80 laps
down, make a pitstop, dont take advantage of NASCAR's need to throw a
caution every time somebody sneezes. Pretty sad if a 35th place car can
purposely effect the race.


  207.   Anonymous posted:
  09.16.2011 - 7:51 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

RCR's cheating calls the legitimacy of this entire Chase into question.
If Harvick finishes 3 points ahead of anyone, it's basically bullshit.
If Jeff Gordon finishes 3 points behind anyone, we know it should have
been different. But what can NASCAR do to penalize them if they find
that they really did violate the rules? You can't park Harvick, and
what's the point of parking Menard? I say just ban Childress from the
track for the rest of the year and put Menards crew chief on probation.


  208.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  09.16.2011 - 8:21 pm
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I wholehearted believe that the Paul Menard caution was intentional. I
have no doubt in my mind about it at all.


  209.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  09.16.2011 - 8:46 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

It is pretty blatent to me. I agree with Mr X, NASCAR needs to send a
message about team orders. For a car 80 laps down to change the outcome
of a race intentionally is really cheap. And I am not a Gordon fan, and
have no direct sympathy for him. But that was a chicken shit move and it
needs to be punished.


  210.   Cooper posted:
  09.16.2011 - 9:28 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Complete Bullshit. And the worst thing is no one has enough guts to
admit it.

At least when Dale Jr. intentionally spun out at Bristol (I believe it
was 2004) he manned up and took the heat. It resulted in a 25 point
penalty but at least he still had his dignity.

I have absolutely zero respect for RCR.


  211.   Dodge posted:
  09.16.2011 - 10:37 pm
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Menard sucks and always have. Always will. His Brickyard 400 win was a
fluke. Unfortunately with daddy Menard sponsoring him, he is in the
sport for good and will not leave. Which sucks as there are drivers that
deserve a good chance and Menard has it locked up because he is a driver
that grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth.


  212.   Lugnut posted:
  09.16.2011 - 10:39 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

lol, jr didn't man up, he f**ked up and blabbed his mouth on the radio
and got caught. Honestly, I don't think it was intentional. He was
asking his CC if they need a caution with 60 laps left in the race. What
the hell would that do to benefit harvick? His CC would then respond "no
paul we don't need one" meaning don't wreck the 17 and cause a caution
(cuz that would f**k up his teammate). Then Mike Dillon tells slugger to
switch to channel 2 (Dillon says he wanted to talk to slugger about the
car). No one ever told menard to switch to channel 2 and he never did.
If anyone told menard to spin intentionally, it would have been heard on
channel 1. But it wasn't. Plus, in the replay, you could see the back
end come around aoff 4 and he was counter steering into the spin...but I
guess he just did that to make it look good *sarcasm*.


  213.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.17.2011 - 5:45 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Are you that stupid lugnut, or is English not your first language? If
Slugger switches to channel 2, or course Paul does, because he NEEDS to
be able to hear his crew chief. Also, Menard was still talking about "Do
they need a caution?" 4 LAPS before he "spun."

Cooper, Jr. also lost $100,000.


  214.   Lugnut posted:
  09.17.2011 - 9:49 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

WRONG. HE doesn't need to hear his crew chief. Mike Dillon asked slugger
to change to channel 2 because he wanted to talk to slugger and him
only. Channel 2 is a digital signal, the driver to crew radio is an
analog signal. NASCAR prohibits digitial communication involving the
driver in the race. It was impossible for paul to go to channel 2
because the radio's the drivers use don't pick up digital signals. And,
no Menard wasn't talking about them needing a caution 4 laps left,
because another site had some of the transcript and he asked it 59 laps
from the end.


  215.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  09.17.2011 - 11:21 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Then how the hell is Paul going to know to come into the pits if he has
no contact with the pits? And why would Mike Dillon absolutely have to
talk to Sluuger this instant if Paul is 80 laps down; THERE IS NO
REASON! For God's sake, Dillon is CLINT BOWYER's spotter. What would he
want with Slugger; if anything, he would want to talk to Paul. You gotta
help me here because I am electronically challenged. Why would a spotter
need to talk to another guys crew chief?


  216.   Lugnut posted:
  09.17.2011 - 11:34 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Last I checked, Mike Dillon is the competition director at RCR. Paul is
going to know when to come in the pits because before the CC changes
channels, he will tell the driver anything he needs to do (they were
good on fuel like everyone else so there was no need for Slugger to tell
paul he needs to pit). Dillon said he wanted to talk to slugger about
the car (assuming how messed up it was). The reason he told slugger to
switch channels was because paul didn't need to listen to them talking
on the radio while he was racing (and talking over the spotter which
would be a bad thing). Either way, no one told paul over the radio to
intentionally spin. If they did it would have been heard on the main
channel (which is monitored).


  217.   Cooper posted:
  09.17.2011 - 2:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"216. Lugnut posted:
09.17.11 - 11:34 am"
You're right, no one told him to intentionally spin. But no one on here
said that.

The only evidence that we have is that Paul Menard and his crew kept
mentioning whether or not "they" needed a caution. The thing is, I don't
think a driver 70 laps down really gives a crap about needing a caution.
These "words" were not directed at the #27 team but the #29 team. Paul
and the #27 team kept talking about needing a caution not for themselves
but for the #29 team. That's the way I took it as an outsider. Plus a
driver 70 laps down will come to pit lane if the car is handling bad or
if he has a tire going down because they simply have nothing to race for.

Thing is, I'm glad it happened because my favorite driver gained three
spots because of it and that's the only thing that matters. But I do
feel bad for Jeff and his fans because I personally believe that they
got hosed. Oh well.


  218.   Anonymous posted:
  09.17.2011 - 5:02 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

You know what really bugs me about this cheating business, is that this
is the 2nd time in the past 3 races that we've had cheating affect the
outcome of a race. First Keselowski cheats by speeding on pit lane at
Bristol, then Menard/Harvick cheat by causing cautions at Richmond. And
in both cases, Jeff Gordon is the one that gets screwed. At least
Keselowski didn't get to use those stolen bonus points, because the
standings would be even more of a sham than they already are. But Gordon
better hope he doesn't lose the championship by 6 points, or he can look
back to the pretty blatant bending of the rules that took place at
Bristol and Richmond that cost him the title.


  219.   Scott B posted:
  09.17.2011 - 6:36 pm
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I took all the "don't need a caution" conversation as nothing more than
code for the crew telling Menard not to go hunting for Kenseth... at
that moment.

So, guess who starts from the front row in Chicago? Kenseth and Menard.

Since nobody needs a caution on lap one, hopefully they'll play nice.

Also, Josh Wise qualified in the #37 for his first career Cup start.
Don't blink or you may miss it.


  220.   the_man posted:
  10.08.2011 - 10:27 am
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David Ragan on a fourth place finish: "I think there were four or five
guys that could have won this race based on pit strategy and how the
cautions fell. We weren't that great on the short runs; we really needed
those 100 and 200 lap runs and I think we would have been just fine. Our
UPS team did a great job tonight. We want to win every time we come to
the race track, but certainly a top five is a great run for our team. We
gained some points back from our previous bad luck and we'll move on."


  221.   Robert Nelson posted:
  07.13.2012 - 12:07 am
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F1 points. Here's who would of made the Chase (Note who ISN'T in it)
1. Kyle Busch 246
2. Carl Edwards 207 (2nd driver to get 200 points)
3. Jeff Gordon 203 (3rd driver to get 200 points)
4. Jimmie Johnson 193
5. Matt Kenseth 159
6. Kevin Harvick 157
7. Brad Keselowski 140
8. Kurt Busch 120
9. Ryan Newman 116
10. Denny Hamlin 100 (10th driver to get 100 points)
WC1. Marcos Ambrose (1 win)
WC2. David Ragan (1 win)


  222.   Anonymous posted:
  04.11.2014 - 10:07 pm
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Red Bull Cars sponsors

4/83 - Red Bull/Wawa


  223.   chevyfan98 posted:
  11.10.2016 - 1:45 am
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Yet another race in 2011 that if Edwards had finished just one spot
better he'd have been the champion. He was running down Harvick in those
last few laps.


  224.   Jason24 posted:
  09.16.2020 - 10:30 am
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The 2013 version of this race gets alot of attention because of Spingate
but this race was perhaps even more infamous overall. It was all
captured by Showtime's "Inside NASCAR."

-Dale Jr wrecked Travis Kvapil.
-Marcos Ambrose and Brian Vickers had a handful of run-ins during the night.
-Clint Bowyer turned David Reutimann in retaliation for earlier contact.
-Perhaps the last major chapter in a heated rivalry between Jimmie
Johnson and Kurt Busch. Kurt made incidental contact with the 48, and
was spun by the
48 later in the evening as payback. Kurt would call Jimmie a "5 time
chump" over his radio.

Last but not least was the original Spingate. Some iffy late race radio
chatter between Paul Menard and his team culminated in Paul spinning and
bringing out a yellow. The caution allowed his teammate Kevin Harvick to
take the win away from Jeff Gordon on the restart. While RCR wasn't as
blatantly obvious as MWR would be two years later, it still looked
somewhat suspect. It was, to say the least, one of the wilder races of
the decade.


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