|| *Comments on the 2011 Sylvania 300:* View the most recent comment <#247> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Talon64 posted: 09.23.2011 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The end of qualifying was marred by some controversy, as there was a rain delay with 5 cars to go and NASCAR restarted the session with some doubts as to the track conditions. JPM went out first after the delay and ended up 31st after struggling on the slick track. When Jimmie Johnson went out for his up-to-speed lap he pulled back in because he felt the track was still too wet. JJ was put on the 5 minute clock but eventually went out and managed to put in a decent lap for 10th. Any doubts about the track conditions quickly went away when Ryan Newman and Kasey Kahne qualified 1st and 2nd as the last two cars to go out in qualifying. It's Ryan Newman's 49th career pole, tied with Bobby Issac for 9th all time and 1 back of Mark Martin for 8th all time and 6th in the modern era. It's his track-record 6th Loudon pole and 3rd of 2011 (tying Kurt Busch for the series lead), his most since 2007. Newman will try to become the 1st driver to sweep both races at a track in the same season from pole since Denny Hamlin at Pocono in 2006. 2. Mr X posted: 09.23.2011 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Really sucks that Steve Park didn't make the race. 3. Talon64 posted: 09.23.2011 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2nd straight race that the #35 missed the show, as Stephen Leicht DNQ'd at Chicagoland. Surprising considering how well the #35 ran with Dave Blaney at Richmond. Or it's just that TBR's really figured out that track. 4. cjs3872 posted: 09.23.2011 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, the number of poles that some of the older drivers have is up for debate, the question being that, until 1971 drivers that won the pole for the Daytona 500 were given credit for winning the pole for two races, which I think is correct. Not only did they win the pole for the Daytona 500, but also the qualifying race they were in, so they were given credit for two poles, and the driver that qualified second was given credit for winning the pole for the second qualifying race, which in fact, he did. I know this website doesn't count those extra pole positions, even though they were earned. That is why Bobby Isaac, according to the records I keep, has 50 pole positions, instead of 49, and Cale Yarborough has 70 pole positions, and not 69. But that's nitpicking, but after today, Newman's next pole will be #50, and he may one day break Jeff Gordon's modern-day record of 70 in that department. Ironically, as it turned out, with all the controversy about the track conditions, the front row for the race ended up being exactly the same as it would have been had qualifying been scrubbed, as Newman was the fastest in the first practice and Kasey Kahne was second-fastest, and that's exactly how they qualified. It is rather interesting that Newman is the only Chase driver starting in the first two rows for Sunday's race, meaning that he will almost certainly be the first chase driver to lead the race, as I don't really think that Kahne, Brian Vickers, or Greg Biffle will race Newman that hard at the start, and effectively let him lead the first lap. There might, in fact, already be an agreement in place to that end to let Newman lead the first lap so he can get the bonus point accosiated with it. Remember that neither Kahne or Vickers have an interest in the title fight, so they could care less what happens there. 5. 18fan posted: 09.23.2011 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How Newman ran here in July and having the same car, I don't think he will have any problem leading the first lap. Kurt Busch was the big winner of having qualifying not rained out as he would have started 32nd if qualifying was rained out. 6. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.23.2011 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's Ryan Newman's 49th career pole, tied with Bobby Issac" Ugh. Those are two names that don't belong together. Why did NASCAR halt qualifying in the first place? With it beginning to sprinkle, and the weather clearly showing rain for the next 36 hours, they should have kept the cars rolling to keep heat in the groove and prevent the track from becoming too slick. As soon as they halted things, the rain began to accumulate, and JPM was screwed. I know he hasn't earned many sympathy points, but the fact is he got the raw end of this one. It was just dumb to stop things. On a small track, as long as it is just a sprinkle and cars are continuously running on it, it is ok. Did they not learn anything from Martinsville in 2008? I was there, it sprinkled for the entire race (and it was really cold to boot), but it is a small track, and the cars kept going, so it was ok. 7. 18fan posted: 09.23.2011 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you have to say if nothing else, Ryan Newman is a great qualifier. That will be his only legacy though. About the rain thing, didn't JPM refuse to go out and then NASCAR halted qualifying. I could be wrong, but that's what I thought happened. I know they made Paul Menard wait for a while and he was the car immediately in front of Juan. 8. cjs3872 posted: 09.23.2011 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you're right. Montoya is definately not the most popular guy on the circuit, or in the minds of those commenting, by any means. But fairness requires that the truth be said, and Montoya got screwed royally. while everyone expects Newman to dominate early, there should be fireworks in the field with Kurt and Kyle Busch, Kevin Harvick, Jeff Gordon, and Jimmie Johnson five of the six drivers that will be starting in rows three through five. remember that Kyle Busch and Harvick don't get along, and the same is true with Kurt Busch and Hendrick Motorsports as a group. What has happened between Kurt and Jimmie Johnson have been well documented, but the elder Busch and Jeff Gordon don't see eye-to-eye either, and now throw in the fact that Kevin Harvick, though he hasn't stated it, is none too pleased with Gordon as a result of what happened after the race at Richmond, and you could get some serious fireworks early in the race at Loudon. One team that doesn't figure to get involved in all this is Roush Racing, which is predictably struggling, as they really don't focus on the short track races, which is why they struggle on the short tracks, and haven't focised on short tracks for years, and I consider Loudon to be a short track, even though it is slightly more than one mile in length. After all, it's been more than three years since a Roush car has won on a short track, and a Roush car hasn't won at a short track other than Bristol in nearly a decade. 9. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.24.2011 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are right 18fan, Newman can drive the hell out of a car in qualifying. He is showing at SHR that all those poles at Penske weren't just a product of Penske's notoriously great qualifying packages. For a while, I thought it was just that. I looked at Rusty's staggering pole numbers in 2000, along with Kurt putting up a lot of poles once he joined Penske after not qualifying for shit at Roush*. But I see now that Penske only enhanced his already great qualifying skills. If only he could race half as good as he qualifies. And if only he were half as smart as he thinks he is, but that is another story. *I think we can safely say that Roush Racing has some of the worst qualifying packages in the sport for about the past 15 years. Look at the drivers pole numbers with him, and look at those that leave. I already mentioned Kurt. In 5 years with Roush, he won 3 poles total. In his first year alone at Penske, he won 6, and has won an additional 6 since. Jeff Burton, in 9 years with Roush won 2 poles. In 2006, he won 4. Mark Martin, after posting huge pole numbers in Roush's first few years, won just 3 poles in his final 7 seasons with Roush. In his first year with HMS, he won 7 poles, and has won 2 additional poles in the 2 years since. Then we look at the Roush lifers Kenseth, Carl, and Biff. Kenseth famously has just 6 poles in 427 starts with Roush. Yet from '98 through '01 while driving in the Busch Series for Reiser Enterprises (I know it is the Busch Series, but Reiser wasn't a top dollar Cup team competing down there) he won 8 poles, so he obviously can qualify. Carl has been slightly better, but he only has 9 poles in 256 starts. And Biff, one of the biggest "I'm gonna stand on the gas" guys has just 7 poles in 9 years. Also, Jamie Mac had one pole in his 4 miserable seasons with Roush. He had two at Ganassi in his first go round when there when their Dodges were not very fast, and has 5 in the two years since joining EGR. Yeah, Roush can't qualify. 10. Spen posted: 09.24.2011 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good to see you back, cjs. 11. cjs3872 posted: 09.24.2011 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're welcome, Spen. Now that I've got my computer back, I intend to stay a while. Though that means you'll get my sharp points of view, as well as my historical facts, where they are needed to enlighten everyone here. After all, I've always believed that to look at the future, one must first look at the past for reference. 12. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.24.2011 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "you have to say if nothing else, Ryan Newman is a great qualifier. That will be his only legacy though." In terms of racing, I see Ryan having a Dale Jr-esque career by the time it is said and done. Like Dale Jr, Ryan also started off his career on a much better note than what he's doing now. After 2003 ended, I thought he would be Penske's next big winner after Rusty retired, but it turns out that year was an outlier for him. And he is now being outperformed by Tony at SHR (although to be fair, it's hard to outperform somebody with as much talent as he has, but Ryan should be closer to him than he is). 13. Baker posted: 09.24.2011 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #18 #24 #48 Picks to win this race this week 14. 18fan posted: 09.24.2011 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the #39 and Newman are the favorite, then Jimmie, Jeff, and Kyle in that order. 15. Cooper posted: 09.24.2011 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman wins the pole once again!. He truly is the Rocket Man. Dave Blaney with a nice qualifying effort. No matter who he drives for, he always shows flashes of brilliance. Whether it be with Bill Davis Racing, Jasper, or TBR. Kasey Kahne has another great qualifying lap. Just like Ryan Newman, he always qualifies well but finds ways to suck on Sunday. 13.6 Avg. Start to an 18.4 Avg. Finish compared to Ryan Newman's... 11.0 Avg. Start to an 16.6 Avg. Finish Mark My words. Jeff Burton will be a contender tomorrow. Looked really good in the 10 Lap Average category. Now...Brad Keselowski. I'm really concerned about tomorrow. Qualified 16th, has been mid-pack in all the practices, and ranked 21st/32 in the 10 lap average. He also got a bad pit box which is between the #20 and the #6, two cars who will likely be on the lead lap all day. There is only one piece of good news. Speed means nothing this weekend. With the rock hard tire, and the inability to make a pass, even a slow car will have a chance to win tomorrow. Good strategy and pit work will be the most important factor tomorrow. Here's my golden rule for pitting tomorrow.... "When in doubt, Stay Out!" 16. cjs3872 posted: 09.24.2011 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since the page for the Truck Series race today has not yet come up, I'm going to make a rant regarding the broadcast of the race in it's late stages, even though this might not be the place to make this comment. Can nobody do a broadcast right? SPEED did an absolutely horrible job. Taking a commercial break with 20 laps remaining may not have been horrible, but how can any network that broadcasts the races possibly go into a commercial break with SEVEN laps remaining on a one mile (1.058 mile to be exact) oval. That's not even four minutes of racing remaining. What lead broadcaster Rick Allen should have done was what Jim McKay did near the end of the 1978 Daytona 500, and that was to overrule those in charge of the broadcast. For those that don't know, ABC, which came back from a commercial with about 12 laps remaining in the 1978 Daytona 500, was scheduled to go into a commmercial break with six laps remaining due to timing, but McKay overruled those in the production truck from the broadcast booth, saying the racing was too important. Of course, Buddy Baker's blown engine on lap 196 ended the duel between him and eventual winner Bobby Allison. ABC didn't go into that commercial until after Allison and second-place Cale Yarborough crossed the finish line. The point here is that, even though the Truck race was incredibly spread out (the most spread out any NASCAR race has been in many years, regardless of the series), that SPEED, or any other network that may have been covering a race has no business going into a commercial break that close to the finish. What would have happened if, say Matt Crafton blew an engine and Kyle Busch crashed in the aftermath. Nobody would have seen it as it happened. As a result of SPEED's gaffe, NASCAR should revoke the contract and give it to ESPN, or someone else that would not go into commercial so close to the finish. And this is not the first time that SPEED has gone into a commercial break and not shown the last ten laps of a race. In fact, this has happened numerous times. On the other hand, ESPN has elected to, before it's "side-by-side" coverage in the second half of the races in the Chase, to virtually forego any commercial breaks late in races, which is the way it should be. In fact, the last 30 minutes to one hour of racing at Pocono and Atlanta was shown commercial-free, and I believe the same was true at Indy, though I can't verify that. All the commercial breaks should be backloaded to the first half to two-thirds of the race, with the final laps always should commercial-free, since that is the most important part of the race. 17. 00andJoe posted: 09.25.2011 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember that last year ESPN went to commercial in the Cup race at Dover with seven laps to go. 18. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe, but this is a pattern with SPEED, as they've done this sort of thing time and time again for many years. Anyway, we won't have to worry about ESPN going into commercial, with the side-by-side coverage that they're doing in the second half of the Chase races. And let's not forget that CBS went into a commercial break TWICE inside the final ten laps of the 1980 Daytona 500, once with 10 laps to go and again with FIVE laps to go, and they went into a commercial break with SIX laps to go in the 1987 Daytona 500, as well as with eight laps left in the 1979 Daytona 500, so SPEED is hardly the only network guilty of this. And let's not forget that ESPN went into a commercial break with 11 laps to go in the fall race at North Wilkesboro in 1989 (the "and both of them spin" race), and were bailed out by a caution flag. Those breaks I mentioned, SPEED's with 7 to go in the truck race, as well as CBS' gaffes in the Daytona 500s prior to 1993. It's understandable to do this with tape-delayed broadcasts, since you can pick up exactly where you left off. (ABC actually overlapped parts the battle for the lead between Al Unser and Swede Savage in the 1973 Indianapolis 500, showing their battle with Roger McCluskey twice, sandwiched around one of the taped segments while Jackie Stewart was still at Indy, I believe the segment was about drafting.) But commercial breaks that late in a race broadcast live under green flag conditions is absolutely inexcuseable. Under caution is excuseable, not NEVER under green that late in a race. 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 11:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The biggest issue with SPEED is Mikey and the companies he represents which also sponsor the Truck telecasts. It is bad enough Mikey can't commentate worth a shit. He talks like every viewer is seeing an automobile race for the first time ("can you imagine what is going through these guy's minds!") plus his constant second guessing of driver's decisions because Mikey had such an illustrious career on track. But his shameless plugging also gets in the way, especially when somebody gets a Lucky Dog sponsored by Aaron's. I never plan to go the rent to own route because it is a rip off, but if I do, I will never go to Aaron's. They need to can Mikey and go back to actually doing racing telecasts, not the Michael Waltrip Variety (of garbage) Hour. But they certainly have other issues too. Also glad to have cjs here. He can disagree without insulting you or amking a condescemding comment like Haha, you really think that? (Bronco, I'm looking at you). He really fosters discussion which is good. 20. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 12:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, the term "Lucky Dog pass", I believe pre-dates Aaron's involvement in the sport, at least as far as sponsoring teams is concerned. It was actually a term that the NBC/TNT team came up with to describe the free pass on every caution that allows the highest running car not on the lead lap to make up a lap, though it does not necessarily put them on the lead lap. That depends on how many laps that car is down when it's given the free pass. And yes, I do, as you put it, "foster" discussions, and I will sharply criticize, when needed, but I always try to be fair with that criticizm. And DSFF, I'm glad to be back after a month out due to computer problems. 21. Mr X posted: 09.25.2011 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't bother to watch the truck race yesterday, and from reading these comments I'm glad I didn't, and being as we're at the track where the crash that created freezing the field and the "lucky dog" happened in this race in 2003, I figure I can bring this up. This is a wierd idea I've had, but what if at every track we have another line exactly opposite the start/finish line. I'll give you an example, we're at Michigan, and there's a crash off turn 4, and the leader is already passed the start/finish line, obviously we cant run all the way back to the line anymore. My idea was we put a line halfway down the backstretch, exactly opposite the start/finish line. If there's a crash in turns 3 & 4 and the leader has passed the line, we race back to the line halfway down the backstretch and the field is frozen there, if the crash is in turns 1 & 2 and the leader is past the line on the backstretch then we race back to the start/finish line. The drivers could race back to a line, but would virtually never have to run through the crashed cars. Instead of a mere "gentlemens agreement" we could actually have a set in stone rule that says in the first 75% of a race the leader decides who and who doesn't get a lap back, and if the leader doesn't race back nobody except lapped cars do. It would be completely the leaders choice. However in the last 25% of a race, we would race back no matter what. Tell me what you think of this idea. 22. Spen posted: 09.25.2011 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm really enjoying watching Mark lead for a while. Here's hoping Matt chooses to stay out if he gets a chance. 23. Mr X posted: 09.25.2011 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty Wallace and Brad Daugherty during the race update were mentioning that Ryan Newman was the fastest car on the track, they also mentioned how he lost 5 seconds on the green flag pitstop, and how he fell 5 seconds behind the leader, they then mentioned that he was now just 1 second behind the leader, Rusty said he was flying, they didn't mention the caution that happened between though. The rest of the broadcast team is doing decent, but the dont have that much to commentate. I'm talking to you Good Year 24. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol. "The Martin Moveover". When you have a conservative move named after you, that says a lot about Mark's career. 25. 18fan posted: 09.25.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two straight instances where we had 5 laps of racing and as many laps of commercials as we did of racing. 26. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JJ is showing frustration. Maybe he is vulnerable this year. 27. Schroeder51 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony is now almost certainly the favorite to win the championship. 28. 1995z71 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith gets another top 10! 29. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Wolfe in just his first year as a Sprint Cup crew chief already has to be considered one of the 5 best crew chiefs. With fuel and pit strategy he got them to finish 2nd with a 24th place car. That is a 5th and a 2nd with a 12th and 24th place car respectively in the cha$e. 30. 1995z71 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also really sucks Steve Park missed the race when 7 cars start-n-parked. 31. Mr X posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why do these teams spend so much money on going fast when every race is decided on strategy and fuel mileage? These teams could win the championship this year by switching from an 830cfm carb to a 390, taking all the tape off the grille, run dished pistons, thicker head gaskets, open chambered heads, back the timing off, and jet the carb as lean as you can, smaller accelerator pumps, and a throttle stop. 32. Stat Brat posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon leads the most laps for the 90th time and Top 5's for the 285th time 33. BON GORDON posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice win for Stewart reguardless of winning on fuel mileage. Clint didnt have the best car either. The two best cars were Jeff Gordon and Kasey Kahnes. Stewart looks amazing right now but i just have this feeling that they still wont win the title. Like Biffle in 2008 he will still finish in the top 5 in points. 34. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin's strong run comes to an end with a flat tire with about 25 laps to go while running in the top 6. Mike Ford's fuel calculation "genius" reared its ugly head again as Hamlin runs out of gas with 3 laps to go while running 7th after being assured he could make it on fuel. 35. joey2448 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know everyone hates these fuel-mileage finishes, but I think they are exciting as any GWC finish. I just hate it when Tony is the beneficiary, lol... 36. A-Frame43 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, stay off the computer. Very few people want to read your rants, especially when they have little behind them. 37. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now...Brad Keselowski. I'm really concerned about tomorrow. Qualified 16th, has been mid-pack in all the practices, and ranked 21st/32 in the 10 lap average. He also got a bad pit box which is between the #20 and the #6, two cars who will likely be on the lead lap all day. There is only one piece of good news. Speed means nothing this weekend. With the rock hard tire, and the inability to make a pass, even a slow car will have a chance to win tomorrow. Good strategy and pit work will be the most important factor tomorrow. Here's my golden rule for pitting tomorrow.... "When in doubt, Stay Out!"" And this turned out to be completely prophetic. Brad Keselowski, from his 16th starting spot hovered from there to 24th during the first 1/3 of the race then got up front and stayed there for the most part after he and Paul Wolfe (who is an AWESOME crew chief, by the way) played some strategy to gain track position. Bowyer running out of gas in the final laps and Brad passing Biffle sealed up his 2nd place finish today. I probably should have posted this on Brad's driver page, but this week I guess I'll just put it here. Jimmie Johnson is pissing a lot of people off, mainly due to frustration on his part. At Richmond, the race right before the cha$e, he divebombs Turn 1 just so he can get to Kurt and wreck him and there was the deal today where he almost wrecked himself and Kyle. He was also roughing up Logano for several laps before that. I'm still not by ANY means whatsoever counting him out of contention for the championship, but if there's a chink in JJ's armor, I think we very well might have found it. "Tony is now almost certainly the favorite to win the championship." I still don't know about that. As I predicted last week, I don't see the #14 team being strong enough to make a bid for the title but he might finish a little higher in points than I predicted. We'll have to wait and see. But it is pretty wild to see them win two races in a row after the dismal regular season they had (they were simply lucky that they made the cha$e). Once again, Kasey Kahne does not finish a race where he ran for the majority of the running. He's been struck with some poor luck this year. Regan Smith scores a 10th place finish, making this his fifth top 10 finish of 2011 after not having any top 10 finishes in his whole career before this season. 38. 18fan posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race was the story of the year for the #4 car. Fast car, and this time they actually put the whole race together, but horrible fuel mileage. They made the Gibbs cars' fuel mileage look good. Biffle gets his best finish of the year. 39. potatosalad48 posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, these races are impossible to call these days. 40. 00andJoe posted: 09.25.2011 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #47 sponsor: Bush's Baked Beans/Hannaford 41. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson's radio rant with Chad Knaus and driving over his head with an ill-handling car revealed something significant regardless of the outcome of the 2011 season. When pressured by his competition with a less than ideal handling car, JJ will lash out. 42. DaleJrFan posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. ran good except for those 2 flat tires. Still got a top 20 finish but had a top 10 car. 43. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for my award winning break down of the cha$ers: Smoke: To start off this post, I'd like to say my elbows and knees are skinned up really bad from jumping off the JJ bandwagon (not the fan bandwagon, just the "JJ will absolutely win 6 in a row this year" bandwagon, I was never on the fan bandwagon). I think this is the championship favorite now. I know that sounds like a prisoner of the moment prediction, but I am looking at how they have run since their Bristol debacle, as well as Tony's undeniable talent and ability to calm down enough when he has a real shot at the title (see '05). Dover is a bit of a question mark for them, their run at Bristol (the other high banked concrete track) was really bad. But he could very well grab #3 this year. Unless JJ or Gordon gets close. Then his "arrangement" with HMS may pay off a little less. Harvick: Who knows? This is by far the hardest team to predict anything for. He has shown very good and very bad in his career, but never in any kind of pattern. When you think they will do bad, they do good, and vice versa. This season has been a microcasm of that. They really missed a big opportunity today. With clearly a Top 5 car, bad pit strategy (no tires while pitting and putting them in the middle of those who did have tires, then leaving him out way too long before his last stop) sent them back. Still only 7 points out. They could reain the lead and drive off with the Cup, or they could finish out of the Top 10 in final points. History says Dover will not be good for them. So expect a Top 3. Seriously. I think he retakes the points lead next week. Brad: Him and Paul Wolfe are clicking big time now. They are improving the car's handling throughout races, and really improving their running position in the late stages of races. Can The Little Train That Could become the Big Blue Train That Did? I still say they are a long shot for the Cup, they definitely can't keep counting on making up that many positions every week, but anything is possible for a team that is red hot, can't seem to do any wrong, and knows they are running with house money this year. Dover should be good based on Bristol. Carl: Pretty good finish and a traditionally bad track for them. If they can survive Martinsville, the rest of the schedule looks good for them. Close enough they don't need bad luck from those ahead of them. Dover is one of their best tracks. Gordon: This team is another mystery. Bad situations have kept them from the finishes they deserved in both races. Had speed here, but not at Chicago so it is hard to predict. What they do have, and know for sure, is that Jeff Gordon can win it if they give him Top 3 cars every week. Hasn't been too good at Dover for the past 10 years. KyBu: This team seems to have lost speed. Considering they also need a little help, that isn't a good sign. Plus Kyle is always a question mark. He did a great job staying cool today with the JJ situation (with some "encouragement" from his crew chief, which is exactly what Kyle needs. Will it be "Same Old Kyle" in the cha$e? Haven't really had more than 3 really good or really bad races in a row all year. Dover is an excellent track for him..... in the Spring. His cha$e Dover races have been ugly with a capitol "UGG". Kenseth: Nice bounce back at a bad track for him, making up a bit for last week's fuel and push gaffe, and getting dumped by his teammate. Except for Matinsville and of course Dega (that is a question mark for everyone), the rest of the schedule favors him. He loves Dover and runs well there. June: Running good so far, but the car is still piloted by June. One of the few teams (along with other HMS chassis Mark and Cassil) to have RF tire issues. Not a good sign. His Dover runs have been uglier than Gary Oldman in the movie Hannibal. KuBu: Apparently they have been having issues in tech inspection leading up to this week's visit to the penalty box. They have made the wrong people mad, and Kurt's attitude is as bad as ever. Plus with JJ probably being out of it soon, he will probably look for Kurt at some point. Hates Dover, and Dover hates him. JJ: Meltdown! Lost his temper at Kyle, and is apparently tired of all the shots being taken at him. For once, it has affected his driving. The car wasn't right all day, and he made things worse for once. If he doesn't make some serious hay at Dover, he might be done. I won't count them out yet, but his attitude is looking down. Newman: Decent speed, bad finishes. Not the kind of driver to carry a team out of a hole like the one he is in now. Really needed a good finish today. Denny: When it absolutely positively has to have a fork in it because it is done overnight...... 44. Larry posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And once again the points are closer in the "traditional pre-Chase system" than the Chase for the Cup. 45. Mr X posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I would say Harvick may well run pretty good at Dover, he ran well in the spring, but Dover is feast or famine for him so I could be wrong too. 46. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A-frame43, you're probably in the minority about my comments not having anything behind them, when they, for the most part, have a lot of historical significance and knowledge behind them. Now that that's over, on to the happenings today. First, what does Carl Edwards seem to have against his fellow Roush "teammates"? First, he tries to run Nationwide teammate Trevor Bayne into the wall while battling for the lead in the Nationwide race earlier this year at Loudon (he lost that battle), then he tried to wreck Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., his other Nationwide Series teammate in the second Iowa race (not the blown engine situation at the end of the race, but rather the incident with about 70 laps remaining, and he lost that battle as well), and today he flat-out spins out Matt Kenseth. Yet nobody over there has yet reciprocated against Edwards, and sooner or later, he's going to see what the other end of that sword looks like, and he's not going to like it. Maybe Edwards' actions, and Roush's inactivity on the subject may have something to do with the fact that he seems to want Edwards to succeed more than the other Roush drivers. Ironically enough, Edwards, though he finished eighth, was the low man on the Roush totem pole in this race. Now where the finish of the race is concerned, it looks the like racing gods have decided to pay Stewart back for what happened in this very race last year. After all, it was Stewart that ran out of fuel with a little more that a lap to go, handing the win to Bowyer. And today, Bowyer runs out with two laps to go, handing Stewart the win, which maves him ahead of Mark Martin for 16th on the all-time list with 41. Next up for him is Bill Elliott, who won 44 times. 47. 00andJoe posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #37 sponsor: Max Q Motorsports 48. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Good observation on Carl and his teammates. I think he expects them to roll over for him because he sees himself as the leader of Roush, which is untrue. That is Matt Kenseth. And Matt isn't the type to just let shit like that go. Plus Carl is psychotic. We can't forget that. 49. 00andJoe posted: 09.25.2011 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owners' standings by best finishing team car: 1. Hendrick, 1142 2. Roush, 1130 3. Gibbs, 1115 4. Childress, 1076 5. Penske, 1054 6. Stewart-Haas, 1008 7. Petty, 898 8. Earnhardt-Ganassi, 865 9. Red Bull, 859 10. Michael Waltrip, 825 11. Furniture Row, 651 12. JTG-Daughtery, 571 13. Front Row, 515 14. Phoenix, 491 15. Germain, 404 16. Baldwin, 401 17. Stoddard, 388 18. TRG, 375 19. Robby Gordon, 290 20. Wood Brothers, 260 21. Gunselman, 159 22. Whitney, 126 23. Parsons, 111 24. NEMCO, 109 25. Inception, 69 26. Leavine, 47 27. Rusty Wallace, 24 28. Falk, 20 29. K-Automotive, 9 50. Hyperacti posted: 09.25.2011 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the standings page, Hamlin is 13th. LOL 51. Captain77 posted: 09.25.2011 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Keselowski and Burton fan.. I can honestly say that I believe that if Brad keeps calm, then he CAN have a SHOT at winning the title. He's 3rd -11 points. As for Burton... YIKES. I only hope that their season can get better (he hasnt necessarily been running terrible.. Just most of his finishes are between 12th and 20th 52. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 09.25.2011 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love seeing Smoke lead the points, but I would rather be watching the points race going on in the traditional standings. 53. Watto posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "With fuel and pit strategy he got them to finish 2nd with a 24th place car." I'm in love with what Paul Wolfe has done in Cup, but I do think they got that 2 car to be better than a 24th place car. It sure wasn't a 2nd place car, but with like 120 laps to go, the adjustments helped out considerably and he wasn't exactly getting passed once he got the track position. He was much faster than most by 50 to go. "Why do these teams spend so much money on going fast when every race is decided on strategy and fuel mileage?" Every race has been decided on strategy for a really long time. That's not new. Seems to be a lot more fuel strategy going on, but this year's race is a mirror image of last year's. For some reason, we see a lot of fuel strategy at Loudon. Also, you gotta be in range to even win on fuel mileage. Tony Stewart's times weren't exactly slow. Guys running 20th didn't even have a shot at winning, and you can run 20th with a pretty fast race car. "cjs3872, stay off the computer. Very few people want to read your rants, especially when they have little behind them." You can skip over what you don't want to read. It's not hard at all. "When pressured by his competition with a less than ideal handling car, JJ will lash out." He's been in that position a million times before without lashing out.. 54. Have at it Brad posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about that amazing performance by Brad? I don't see how anyone can argue against him being one of the favorites, what with Kyle and Jimmie falling apart all of a sudden. 55. Bronco posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "I think he expects them to roll over for him because he sees himself as the leader of Roush, which is untrue. That is Matt Kenseth." Wrong. Carl has beat Matt in the standings in 5 of the 7 years in which they have raced against each other, including this one. Not to mention that this is only Carl's 7th full time season in Cup, yet he is only behind Matt who has been around for over a decade. His 2008 season was far better than any of Matt's seasons. Case closed. Remember also that Ford paid big bucks to keep Carl in their fold. Tough luck for Dale Jr, showed some speed and deserved a top 10, but was doomed by 2 flat tires. Dover has been possibly his worst track the last two years, but his run in the spring was encouraging. 56. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who has the championship and who doesn't? And who do the younger Roush drivers really look up to? The answer is Kenseth. One other thought: for much of the last half of the race, ESPN would be live with the commentators for just a few laps, then do the side by side deal for commercials for quite a while. I was actually ok with this. As long as we can see what is happening, it is surprising to see just how little the commentators add. Especially from the infield studio. 57. Red posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why do these teams spend so much money on going fast when every race is decided on strategy and fuel mileage?" Yeah, I've been thinking that a lot this season as well. Hopefully with the new car in 2013 we can go back to actual racing, but I'm not counting on it. Though, to be fair, Loudon is probably the most track position dependent track on the circuit besides Indy. The flat tracks with long straights are always brutal for passing. I love how Bruton Smith needlessly reconfigured several tracks that were already great (Bristol, Vegas, Sonoma, Atlanta) and yet he leaves this abomination as is. Please, Bruton, if ANY track needs to be overhauled, it's the joke that is NHMS. 58. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, Carl Edwards, prior to this year has raced in Cup for six full years, as 2011 is his seventh full season, though you are accurate in saying that he has bested Kenseth more often than it has been the other way around. However, what Edwards did in spinning Kenseth is once again proof that he is likely never to win a championship in the top series, because Edwards, much like Kyle Busch, are probably the most mistake-prone drviers among the top tier drivers in the sport. And that is why neither is likely to win a title. Both are extremely gifted drivers, but prone to make errors because of their aggressive style. On the other hand, Kenseth, almost from the very beginning, has always seemed to have the proper perspective, in that, he always tries to get to the finish without ruffling feathers, and waits to make his move until the time is right. After all, there is a reason that his first win came in the sport's longest event, and there's a reason that he was the first Roush driver ever to win a championship, and the only one ever to win the sport's biggest event, the Daytona 500. And that is that Kenseth just doesn't make mistakes, and in auto racing, the biggest prizes are most often won by the drivers and teams that don't make mistakes, instead of the ones with the fastest cars and most aggressive attitudes. A classic case in point here is the difference in the Indy 500 records of Al Unser and Mario Andretti. Andretti was always aggressive, while Unser usually waited until the end to run as hard as he could, and the results show it. Andretti only won the race once and often broke down, or had other problems, while Unser won the race four times, finished in the top three 11 times, and the top five 13 times, all records, and is regarded by many, including myself, as the greatest Indy 500 driver of all-time. (Andretti even admitted that he wished he had Unser's patience.) The same is true regarding Edwards and Kenseth. While Edwards's style is more flashy and risky, and may earn him more victories in shorter races, Kenseth's more steady style will most often win out over the long haul, because he's not going to put himself in risky situations. As a result, of all the drivers that have ever driven for Roush, including the franchise's standard-bearer, Mark Martin, Kenseth is the one and only driver I would ever trust in pressure situations. And the facts bear that out. Kenseth has won the Daytona 500, Ccoa-Cola 600, nearly won the Brickyard 400 on more than one occasion, and although no Roush driver has ever won that race, he's been the franchise's only consitent threat there in recent years, and has that 2003 Cup title, Roush's first. And with the ultra-aggressive Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. coming up, possibly to replace either David Ragan or Greg Biffle after a possible apprenticeship in the #21 car next year, if the reports that surface last week are to be believed, if his performance doesn't improve (despite his third-place effort today), it looks like Kenseth may be the only driver at Roush you can trust in the big occasions for quite some time, since Stenhouse has the same faults that Edwards has. 59. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First, he tries to run Nationwide teammate Trevor Bayne into the wall while battling for the lead in the Nationwide race earlier this year at Loudon (he lost that battle), then he tried to wreck Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., his other Nationwide Series teammate in the second Iowa race (not the blown engine situation at the end of the race, but rather the incident with about 70 laps remaining, and he lost that battle as well), and today he flat-out spins out Matt Kenseth." He also caused the Big One in the Bud Shootout by squeezing into a closing hole between Regan Smith and Dale Jr. While that doesn't have any direct relation to how Carl races his teammates (which is true), it shows that he has a tendency to cause his fair share of wrecks. But he has had a disturbing streak of getting into it with teammates this season, and the incident you mentioned with Stenhouse was the most disturbing to me, since Ricky is only trying to race as hard as he can so he can have a shot at a good future in NASCAR, and Carl apparently had a problem with it and side-swiped Ricky on the frontstretch. Brian Vickers gets his second top 5 of the year and only his second since his return from the sidelines. Ironically enough, they were both 5th place finishes and they both came on 1 mile tracks. 60. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, I meant that if Biffle's performance didn't improve in the final few races of this year, as well as naxt year, that he might be replaced by Stenhouse in 2013, after Stenhouse gets his feet wet in Cup driving the #21 car, if the reports that surfaced last week are true. Sorry about any possible confusion. Also, Ragan would be out at Roush if Roush had to downsize his Cup operation to three cars due to lack of sponsorship, the same reason that Trevor Bayne, the driver that Stenhouse may replace in the #21 car, would be let go if Roush had to downsize his Nationwide operation to two cars, or possibly just one full-time car, with a second operated by a mixture of Roush's Cup drivers on a part-time basis. Why else would Roush and Ford be thinking about replacing Bayne in the #21, especially if the Woods are pleased with how Trevor is doing, other than the fact that Bayne may have to be released by Roush due to sponsorship issues, which would knock him out of the #21 car, as well. 61. Eric posted: 09.25.2011 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My take on the 12 drivers after today: Tony Stewart: I really don't know what to expect with him at Dover with his last 2 finishes there had been outside of the top 20. It seems like the 14 team has gained some speed though. He is the surprise of the chase so far. I don't know if the 14 team can keep it at this point. I need a couple more races to see if he could do a top 5 or a top 10 Brad Keselowski: team is really a title contender and is continuing to be hot right now and I like him for Dover. Jeff Gordon: Nice job of bouncing back from Chicagoland. Dover for the few times is unlike Jeff there with him not having a top 10 finish there in 3 straight races. He still has a chance for the title. Matt Kenseth - good bounce back from his finish at Chicagoland despite getting tapped by Carl. Dover is a good track for him traditionally. I need to see after Martinsville where he is in points. Carl Edwards - Good finish out of him here considering his track record. He could be a big contender for the championship besides Brad. Dover is a very good track for him. The key with Carl is Martinsville and Talladega. Kyle Busch - today's finish wasn't shocking. Sometimes he is good here, but you don't know what you get out of him at New Hampshire. Dover is a good track him traditionally. Kyle's problem right now is not all speed related by the car. His pit crew isn't as good as it was before the chase. That pit crew had a 17.2 stop today and the pit crew was off at Chicagoland. Kevin Harvick - decent run. Dover is not a great track for Kevin in terms of getting top 5's because he only has 2 top 5's at Dover in 21 cup starts. He has 8 top 10's at Dover in 21 starts. He is still a contender for the title. Dale Earnhardt Jr. - bad luck in this race for him in terms of tires. He had a good car. Dover has been ugly for him after win 2001 Dover win. Dale had 3 top 10's in his first 4 starts at Dover, but in the next 19 starts at Dover, he only had 4 top 10 finishes at Dover including his final top 10 here to date happening in 2007 fall race. Driver is still a pretender in my book for the cup championship despite not being out of right now. Jimmie Johnson - his team made a bad call during the race and never got track position besides having his issue with Kyle Busch. Dover is a great track for Jimmie traditionally, but the team seem off this year at times. I can't call Jimmie a pretending yet despite the team not being the same this year. Kurt Busch - The hopes of the 22 team in the chase is now based on how bad the penalty will be failing inspection before the race. His track record at Dover is ugly, but Kurt has finished in the top 10 there 3 out of the last 5 races there. Ryan Newman - he had bad luck today. Dover is make or break race for Ryan. Since 2006, Ryan isn't as a good at Dover compare to 2002 to 2005 for him. Team is still a pretender. Denny Hamlin - team is almost done in the chase with him being 66 points back. 62. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should probably clarify this: I'm NOT trying to say that Ricky isn't guilty of racing too hard at times, because it's obvious he overdrives his car at times. When Brad got into him at IRP, he totally overdrove his car trying to get back up to Brad and retaliate and ended up smacking the wall. I'm also not trying to say that Ricky can get into people and get away with it, but I can understand why Ricky along with other Nationwide regulars would race harder than the Cup regulars, and that's because they still have to prove they are capable of getting the job done and hope they can land a shot at a Cup ride while the Cuppers already have a top notch Cup ride and their future is pretty much set. 63. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Wolfe is one of the leaders in the evolution of Nascar strategy. He goes against the "four tires and fuel" method a lot of times. He and Brad aren't afraid to go outside the box on stuff. They're a great combo that should eventually get a title if they stay together. 64. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, here's the odd stat of the race. Jeff Gordon led the most laps, something he's been doing a lot of lately, with 78 leading laps, and finished fourth. Interstingly, no other driver that finished in the top third of the field in today's (9/25) race led more than four laps, and the top three finishers combined to lead only three laps the entire race. And while Gordon finished fourth leading the most laps, the drivers second (Ryan Newman, 62 laps led), third (Clint Bowyer, 49 laps led), and fourth (Mark Martin, 46 laps led) all finished, in no particular order, 24th, 25th, and 26th, due to fuel mileage. The only other driver to lead more than four laps all day, Kasey Kahne, finished 15th. Kahne, who's streak of bad racing luck has to end sometime, led 43 laps. On a side note, I wonder who's bad luck will end first, Kasey Kahne, or Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne? I'd say Kahne, if only because he actually has a ride cemented for next year, where on the other hand, Bayne may not have a ride for next year, even possibly losing his ride in the #21 car for reasons already mentioned in post #60. 65. cjs3872 posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OldSchoolNascarDude, that title you mentioned that Paul Wolfe and Brad Keselowski should eventually get, may in fact, come this year, the way things are going for that team. Their second-place finish today moved them up to third in the standings. The way they've been running of late, one would have to wonder when the other shoe is going to drop, but it hasn't so far, and there doesn't seem to be any sign of that team's fortunes changing any time soon, but racing luck can change in an instant, and nobody knows just when that instant might be, or what might cause it to change. 66. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872- I can't disagree with you. But, as is the case for most sports, I'm buying the theory that lack of experience can hurt you. However, these two have had a small notebook for most of the season, but still made things work. Wolfe's greatest attribute is his ability to undertand the tire compound and to know how far Brad can make it go. That team is king when it comes to getting track position. 67. Mr X posted: 09.25.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the topic of best driver at Roush, Kenseth is compared to the Silver Fox, David Pearson, Kenseth lays patiently in the weeds, and when you least expect it Matt explodes with a deadly strike, and when he has the car he can put on a clinic, and thats not really something Carl has shown he can do, plus as DSFF says, and I agree with Carl is nuts, he lets those muscles get to his head I think. 68. Thomas posted: 09.25.2011 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Keselowski can avoid any major disasters in the Chase, you can't help but wonder if the bonus points he didn't receive for his wins may end up being the difference in the championship hunt. 69. Smokefan05 posted: 09.25.2011 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hopefully with the new car in 2013 we can go back to actual racing, but I'm not counting on it." Yeah if it sucks then who will be blamed......hm...........oh i know, the people who wanted the damn car in the first place. Post #43 i pretty much agree with what you said, especially about Jimmie. They aren't out of it yet, but they are getting close to being out of it. If they fall a race (points wise) behond by race 5 of the Chase then they are done (too me anyway). I'm not counting them out yet, but they are showing weakinesses (one being the driver imagen that!!!!). They aren't the same team from last year that is an obvious observation. Dover will show weither the #48 bunch can right the ship. 70. Talk4Tar posted: 09.25.2011 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I doubt Brad will win the Championship, but it's still nice, as a huge fan of his, to see him running so well. Regardless, 2011 has been a HUGE success. 71. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, I mentioned that Jeff Gordon again led the most laps, leading 78 today. At this rate, he may pass Darrell Waltrip for sixth place all-time before the year ends. With the laps he led today, that gives him an unofficial total, at least by my count, which is based on info from this website, to 22,455. Waltrip is sixth all-time with 23,130. That means if he leads 676 more laps this year, which is certainly doable the way he's been running, that he'll move into sixth on the all-time laps led list. He's also won three times this year, and he's been unlucky not to have at least doubled that. If he keeps running like this, and things can certainly change from year-to-year, he could record his 90th career win next year. And when that happens, and it's looking more like when that happens, instead of if now, the official countdown to his 100th win, a mark achieved in the Cup series by only Richard Petty (200) and David Pearfson (105) will begin. And if he gets to 100 wins, I will consider him the greatest NASCAR driver of all-time. 72. Mr X posted: 09.26.2011 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 57. Red posted: 09.25.11 - 8:41 pm When I said what I said there, I was mostly talking about the tire, Jimmie Johnson also mentioned the same thing in a pre-race press conference on NASCAR.com. I really don't have a problem with the car. The current car is less aero dependent then the old car, meaning it should be less effected by clean air, the only problem is NASCAR has Nazis in the inspection line, NASCAR needs to give the teams more freedom in the chassis, these cars can't travel, the rear end housing can't be a measly 1/32" out of spec, NASCAR boxes these teams into running a certain package, the gear rule, I agree with no overdrive, but allow the teams to run whatever rear gear they want. A little more brand identity could help a little too, even though most modern street cars have virtually no brand identity. I'm actually glad we don't race "stock cars" anymore. I'm dreading the switch to fuel injection and the E15. All NASCAR has done is put these teams in a box, all they've done is make the advantage harder and more expensive to find, and with this current combination of rock hard tires, and freshly paved tracks, we've had more fuel mileage races then ever before. And it makes me wonder how long NASCAR can keep doing this, sooner or later even the more casual fan will notice that despite what the media says the on track product isn't as good as it has ever been and if NASCAR keeps this up it will begin to look like Formula One. NASCAR seems to think that nothing has happened, and I'm not sure Brian even knows how to fix it. Race fans pay hard earned money to buy tickets and attend these races, they and I expect to see GOOD COMPETITIVE GREEN FLAG RACING. It doesn't matter how many cars are on the lead lap, it doesn't matter how many lead changes there are. What matters is the quality of the racing after the green flag waves and on through the run, and this year its as low as I have ever seen. We've had so many fuel mileage races because the tires haven't even begun to slow down by the time the fuel cell is empty, all you do when you take four tires is lose track position. This brings me to Paul Wolfe, he and Brad work great together, they have chemistry, I've never doubted Brad's driving ability, all those times Denny & Kyle tried to crash Brad in the Nationwide Series, Brad always spun but he never hit anything, and he never quit driving the car even during the spin, he prooved he had incredible car control, like Stewart, Johnson, both of the Busch brothers, Harvick, both Gordon's, Earnhardt Sr. and others. All Brad needed was a fast car. I think as long as Penske produces fast cars, Brad and Paul will continue to perform, and once they put an entire season together, they will definitely deserve a spot at or near the top of the NSCS points standings. I feel eventually Good Year will have to bring tires that wear out a lot more then the current tires, and when that happens pit strategy and track position will start to take more of a back seat to a fast racecar with a good chassis setup, and thats the way it should be, however lots of the #2 teams finishes this year have been strategy, today for example, when the tires are softer, most of this pit strategy bullshit that Paul is so good at won't be so effective. They will have to do a better job of making the car faster. This brings me to Jimmie Johnson, this year they have been on the opposite side of the fence. Since 2002 Jimmie, Chad, and the #48 crew has done the best job of building the fastest racecar every week, they didn't need all this strategy garbage to win races, they did it the way its supposed to be done, with speed. They've been used to being able to actually pass cars under green, they made up track position on the track. And thats the way it should be and has been for years before 2011. Fuel mileage races will always be a part of this sport, and they should be, sooner or later we'll have a race where the final caution comes out right on the edge of the fuel window, however when there are articles on NASCAR.com about fuel saving abilities becoming a skill necessary to succeed in the NSCS, its too prevalent. As a result of all this we've had 16 different winners this year which may sound great, however with all the strategy, fuel mileage, and complete fluke wins this year it really means nothing. 2011 is compared to 2001, when we had 19 different winners, and we wont have 19 this year because of the chase. But in 2001 there were 19 different drivers who earned the right to win their respective races. The on track product was incredible in 2001, so much great racing, if it weren't for all the tragedies 2001 would be at the top of my list, it was a year to remember. The pavement that they use to repave or reconfigure these tracks doesn't wear out like the old pavement did, and the tires don't either. As a result the drivers can't race, can't pass, they virtually have to wreck eachother like JJ did to KyBu today, and even that didn't work. IMO Atlanta, Phoenix, and Martinsville have had by far the best GREEN FLAG RACING this year, why because they were on a worn track, with worn tires, on a hot day. All of them ended with a fantastic finish and had great battles for all the positions all day long. A slow car was lapped, the fastest car was running down those in front of him, and drivers didn't have to worry about fuel because they were budgeting their tires during the run, which is more interesting then drivers budgeting their fuel during the run, different cars were good on different length runs, and how many races have there been this year where nobody even mentioned a long or short run, as soon as the tire pressures build up, the car turns the same lap over, and over, and over, it never slows, as long as the driver can drive it. Drivers on 2 tires should have to drive their ass off to hold back guys on 4, and after a few laps they should lose. 2 tires should be a gamble, a short term gain, not a one way ticket to the front of the pack, even a slow 2 tire stop is faster then a 4 tire stop. It seperated the fast cars from the slow ones which is part of the reason why this whole auto racing thing caught on in the first place. NASCAR used to have an oversaturation of tracks and races in the south east, and NASCAR thought something was wrong, now they have something worse, an oversaturation of 1.5 milers that are all repaved every other year, the best races and tracks are the ones where a good crew, driver, and car are the most important, not clean air and track position, we used to go to Rockingham, there weren't any fluke wins or fuel mileage races there, to win a the Rock, an excellent crew, with excellent 4 tire stops, an excellent driver, and an excellent car was needed. If you didn't have those things you got lapped in a hurry, minor mistakes could be corrected on the track if the driver and car were capable. Races at the Rock, especially the 500 milers rarely had more then 10 cars on the lead lap, but it didn't matter, the racing was still amazing, in February of 2000 there were 4 cars on the lead lap at the end, but it was still one of the best races of the 2000 season IMO. Other races have been shafted aswell, especially the Southern 500, NASCAR's oldest 500 mile race, on the first paved track was robbed of its Labour Day Tradition for an event at Fontana, and even though I don't mind a late season race at Fontana on a hot, sunny day its still not Darlington. Its now treated as just another race, and the repave took away a lot of the tracks charactor, and it hasn't worn out at all. As Regan Smith said in victory lane "I'm not supposed to win this race, legends win this race." This race is a Crown Jewel, and legends won the race because it was 4 grueling hours, 500 grueling, difficult, slow, and brutally hot miles, and 367 grueling, slippery, 6 inches from the wall, laps. Like Rockingham the attrition was high, if you were on the lead lap at the end, you had a good day, and the winner was exhausted after doing the best job of driving in the best car, for the best crew, who gave him the best 4 tire stops. There is a reason why Jeff Gordon won 4 Southern 500's in a row, Cale Yarborough won 5, Darrell Waltrip was really concerned that he would end his career without this vital win, however he got his 84th and final win in the 1992 rain shortened Southern 500, Big E won it 3 times, Bobby Allison won it 3 times, Bill won it twice, Pearson won it twice 3 times, and Petty won it just once. Before the repave every Southern 500 was won by the best this sport had to offer, not just anyone, which is painful to say because I like Regan Smith. Rant Over. 73. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 2:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "All NASCAR has done is put these teams in a box, all they've done is make the advantage harder and more expensive to find" Hear, hear. Funny how in every racing series the "cost-cutting measures" always make things more expensive... 74. 18fan posted: 09.26.2011 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have been tired of NASCAR using cars on the lead lap and lead changes to say that this is the most competitive era ever. They just hand cars laps back with the wave-around and the free pass, and throw debris cautions that tighten the field up and keep more cars on the lead lap. Also, a majority of lead changes happen during green flag pit stops or right after restarts. There are probably less on track passes for the lead than there have been in a while. 75. myothercarisanM535i posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "they and I expect to see GOOD COMPETITIVE GREEN FLAG RACING. It doesn't matter how many cars are on the lead lap, it doesn't matter how many lead changes there are. What matters is the quality of the racing after the green flag waves and on through the run" Sounds like you would enjoy the BTCC. I wish that series got more coverage here, although you guys in the US probably get even less coverage than me. 76. John Royal posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seems like Jimmie Johnson can't handle racing in crowd. His success has usually come from driving in front alone, only needing to deal with lapped cars. Now that his being in middle of the bunch from various reasons, he had made a lot enemies while driven like ass. He can't even bump'n'run properly. Also being championship driver, he should know that one should NOT bump Busch brothers if wanting to finish a race. Its refreshing to see Johnson struggle :D But I still believe he somehow makes this 6th in a row. Oh well. 77. Watto posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "His success has usually come from driving in front alone, only needing to deal with lapped cars." uh, what? That 48 team, for years, has been known for their ability to take a car that is midpack at best and get it to where Jimmie can drive it to the front when it counts. Jimmie's success comes from his racecraft, not being able to hot lap out front. Anyone who argues otherwise hasn't paid much attention. 78. Anonymous posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unless one of you has their bachelor's in Psychology, I don't want to here you calling a driver nuts, or mentally unstable. The terms that fit better are "immature" and "quick to wrath." Using your reasonings, than Bobby Allison and Richard Petty were homicidal maniacs. 79. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, Bobby Allison actually won the Southern 500 FOUR times, not three as you mentioned, and he did it driving for four different teams in four makes of cars. In 1971, he won it in a Mercury for Holman-Moody, in '72, he won it in a Chevrolet for Richard Howard and Junior Johnson, in '75 he won it in an AMC Matador for Penske Racing, and in '83, he won it in a Buick for DiGard Racing. And Bill Elliott actually won the Southern 500 THREE times, not twice, as you mentioned. He won for Melling Racing in 1985 and '88, and he scored Junior Johnson's final Cup victory in the 1994 Southern 500. As for your saying that the Southern 500 was meant to be run in hot conditions. Well, there were some years in which it was a surprise that nobody ever died from the heat, something that actually happened at Indy in 1953. The fact that you have to run next to the wall for 367 laps makes it an extreme challenge, no matter what the weather conditions are, and they've been running that race at night since 2004, except for 2007, when rain forced the postponement of the race to Mother's Day from the Saturday of that weekend, with Jeff Gordon capturing a record sixth win in that event. Now, 18fan, your comment about NASCAR letting cars back on the lead lap may be a good one, but it has to do with safety measures, as well as it does competition. After all, NASCAR eliminated racing back to the caution flag after the near-disaster at the fall race at Loudon in 2003, but to make it possible for cars that had misfortune to make up laps, NASCAR created the "free pass" rule for the highest-scored car not on the lead lap, allowing that car to make up one lap, but not necessarily put it back on the lead lap. Now, the double-file restarts were a result of requests made, mostly by fans to put ALL the leaders in front of the field. A byproduct of that is the "wave around" rule, which actually was an idea that the IRL came up with in 2000. The "wave around" rule, which I don't 100% agree with either, makes it so that lapped, or nearly lapped cars don't start in front of the leaders on a restart, something that has, on occasion, created crashes that have wiped out most of the leaders (the 2004 spring race at Dover is a prime example, as well as the 2004 race at Chicagoland, when Tony Stewart got into Kasey Kahne, mainly because Kahne, although he was leading at the time, actually lined about 12th on that restart, and had to back off when someone slowed in front of him). Now as for what has befallen the #48 team of Jimmie Johnson. I don't knnow about anyone else that posts here, but something just hasn't been right about that team for well over a year now. Even when they won the title last year, they were noticeably off their game, and their championship last year was more a product of Denny Hamlin's team losing it, than Johnson's team actually winning it. If they struggle at Dover, which in my opinion, is his best track, next week, then I think we can certifiably say that Johnson's reign as champion will end this year, but I won't totally write them off yet. 80. Anonymous posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are reasons that in the 1990s drivers used to say that debris cautions meant that the legendary French driver Pierre Debris was on the track, because there was no debris. cjs: Glad to have you back; you always spark debate. It seems like Gordo does better in battles against the heat. Also, I don't know about Dover for Jimmie; Dover was the aeropush farce in May. I would judge Jimmie on how he does at Kansas because those sterile things make up half of the chase; don't forget Jimmie was 4th at Chicago before self-destructing on fumes. 81. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 8:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#80), the comment you made about the legendary Frenchman Pierre Debris, I believe was another "Economaki-ism" from the 1988 Daytona 500. And as for the race at Dover in May. Johnson and Carl Edwards dominated that race, but got caught out by the fact that so many took two tires on the last stop. Hed just a few done so, they probaby would have been able to work their way back up, but there were about eight to ten teams that either took on two tires on the last stop, or just took on gas, which was too many for the dominant cars of Johnson and Edwards to catch. Had there been another caution, they might have ben okay, but they just got too far behind. But again, Dover will be the true statement on whether Johnson can legitimately contend in the Chase. If he struggles there, his goose is cooked. As for my statement on 100 wins making Gordon the greatest in my view. It's simple. If Gordon, or any other modern driver gets to 100 wins, that would, in my book be much more impressive than Richard Petty's 200 wins, due to the level of competition. I've always ranked Petty as the greatest NASCAR driver of them all, not because of his seven Daytona 500 wins, or his seven championships. In my view, Petty's trump card in that debate has always been the 200 wins, but if Gordon, since he's the closest, and with Alan Gustavson now calling the shots and giving him the best cars he's had in a decade, gets to that 100-win plateau, that would give him a trump card in the "greatest of all-time" debate that would overcome even Petty's 200 wins. Add that to the fact that he could get as many as 350 top 5 finishes (he's at 285 now) and a whopping 500 top 10 finishes (he's currently at 393), the 100 wins , if he gets there, along with him being NASCAR's answer to Jack Nicklaus in terms of winning the sport's crown jewels, would in my view put him over the top, and justifiably earn him the #1 ranking all-time, even if he never wins another championship, which would be cheapened anyway. As it is, I'll move him up to #2 with his next win, which would break a tie he has with Bobby Allison (sorry, NASCAR) for third on the all-time list with 86. 82. Brother Bear posted: 09.26.2011 - 8:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am a Jimmie fan, but I'm not confident he will make it 6 this year. Some thumb-based pseudo-scientific method tells me he will be some points short, most probably in second spot. Right now I would say Kevin Harvick is the man to watch. Whatever way I calculate Junior is not going to make it without a good string of top 10s, a top 5 at Talladega and some extreme misfortune for some others. I would not be surprised if Biffle, Kasey and one of Junior/Mark Martin all get wins before the end of the year. 83. AJ posted: 09.26.2011 - 8:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @75 I know it's not the BTCC (which would be loved IMO here in the US), but SPEED is showing the Bathurst 1000 live this October; although I have no clue why on Earth we're sending Mike Joy and DW there for the broadcast instead of someone like Leigh Diffey who actually called V8 races over in Australia for a number of years. Being at the race, I don't know if they showed this on the ESPN broadcast, but at one point early on, Logano cut off Allmendinger, and AJ spent about three laps trying to retaliate, culminating in nearly wrecking both himself and his teammate Ambrose off of turn 4. 84. Scott B posted: 09.26.2011 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg Biffle was the top finishing Ford driver (3rd place) for the first time this season. Brian Vickers was the top finishing Toyota driver (5th place) for the first time this season. 85. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I posted this on another board a few weeks ago, but I still stand by it. 1) The Chase- This is just another Brian France idea for a "game 7 moment." How stupid is it that after race 26 the guy who is 20th in points could potentially be ahead of the guy who had been leading the points? 2)Free Pass/Wave-around cars- The "Lucky Dog" is self explanatory in stupidity, but the Wave-around had a nice intention, but is and will continue to be abused. The only time a Wave-around could work is during green flag stops. I say just scrap it. I can count on one hand the number of times it has changed the outcome of a race. 3)Jacques Debris cautions- Let's not ruin a driver's dominant performance for the sake of entertainment. If I want false or manufactured drama, I'll turn on WWE or catch old episodes of Slamball, XFL or the And1 tour. 4)Drop some of the night races- The only true night races needed should be Richmond(1) Charlotte(1), Bristol(2) and Richmond(2). I do think each track should require some type of lighting in case of a rain delay or weather postponement. 5)Allow Teams More Leverage- The teams are in too much of a box. As it is, the tire compound doesn't fall off and the aerodynamic packages are killing drivers' opportunities from driving from the back to the front. We know the new noses will be here in 2013, but the quickest fix is to change the tire compound. That would help put it more in the drivers hands. 6)2x2 Tango- I can offer no explanation on how to stop this, but it's completely stupid for the pusher. He has no incentive on winning. Next up, drop the yellow line rule. 7)TV Deals-"Boys have at it", debris cautions, tracks repaving, Busch Whacking, tracks getting dropped, etc. I don't really place the outright blame on Nascar, but the tv sponsors are all in favor. As to be expected, Brian France is too worried to stand up for anything so he gives in. Nascar promotes all this at each team's expense. This is on the same level of Goodell hammering players for their hits last season, but the NFL website sold pictures of the exact same hits that were resulting the players getting fined. If Nascar doesn't step up, I predict several more negative trends happening. I wouldn't be surprised if we see shorter races and some of the not so "sexy" tracks losing dates. I'm looking at you Pocono, New Hampshire and Dover. It's already happened in the lower series. Tracks such as Milwaukee, Gateway, Memphis, Montreal and IRP/ORP/LORP/whatever the Hell it's called now are all being dropped, but it's not because of on track action. Here's a hint, Fox, ESPN, and TNT all have other affiliate channels. Why not use some of their advertising to promote the lesser series for live broadcasts? Speed and FX should be doing more live ARCA and Regional races, ESPN has a plethera of connections to showcase other series on and TNT also has the means to do so, also. 8)GWC's/Double File Restart-This is exciting, but a race has a distance, let's stick to it. I'm not really into watching a demo derby and drivers showing no respect for their peers. Let the lappers have the opportunity to make a lap back. Maybe for the final 10 laps of the race the lead lap cars start up front in double file formation. 9)Frozen Field-This could be classified with the last topic. I have a simple resolution. When a caution flag is displayed, two options are available. If it's a huge mess, freeze the field. If it's for a phony debris caution or an equally weak solo spin, let the competitors race to the line. My proposition would be that a yellow and red flag be waved if the field is to be frozen, but a solid yellow flag means the drivers can race to the line to gain a spot or lap back. In the case of a yellow and red flag, the closest car behind the leader that isn't on the lead lap will receive one of his/her laps back. 10)Age Demographic-I don't give a damn about whether an 18-34 audienceleads the way in watching races or not. I understand that a younger audience promotes the sport better in the long run, but with the current state of the sport, Nascar should be catering to the ones that help put it on the map. Gender, race, location or age shouldn't be the main concern right now. I'm not even 20 yet, but I wouldn't feel disrespected if not included in the target audience. 11)Driver Marketability-I understand that now, more than ever, Nascar has a diverse field. I'm fine with that. However, people loved drivers such as Earnhardt, Wallace, etc. because they could relate to them. They seemed like normal people who drove cars. The general audience is now uninformed about the daily lives of the Nascar driver. Maybe a show similar to Nascar Drivers 360 could help out. 12)Choosing A Series- It's pretty simple, actually. Cup drivers who finish in the top 35 points from the previous season should not be eligible to drive in the lower series. I certainly understand some exceptions, so I would be okay with a 3 race cap per series for a driver. However, when that driver runs a lower series race, he receives no driver/owner points and he gets no race purse. Instead, that money is taken out and distributed equally to all of the others regulars who competed in that race. I'm not trying to sound like the most negative person in the world, but Brian France has done more bad for the sport than good. I don't see that changing under his leadership. When will some of the "higher ups" notice that? The tv deals/sponsors/fairweather fans are what has set this sport back. Without those, most of the problems listed above are obsolete. 86. Cooper posted: 09.26.2011 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, when that driver runs a lower series race, he receives no driver/owner points and he gets no race purse. Instead, that money is taken out and distributed equally to all of the others regulars who competed in that race." YES.YES.YES. This is genius. 87. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 09.26.2011 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Real Points: Edwards 955 Johnson 949 (-6) Ky Busch 946 (-9) Harvick 942 (-13) Gordon 934 (-21) Kenseth 918 (-37) Ku Busch 891 (-64) Stewart 882 (-73) Newman 879 (-76) Earnhrdt 849 (-96) Brad K. 843 (-102) Hamlin 772 (-183) And by comparing each driver's relative points position in this system to their current position in the Chase, we see the biggest winners and losers so far from this ridiculous format (+/- points out of the lead between each system): Hamlin (+117) Keselowski (+95) Stewart (+73) Earnhardt (+70) Newman (+42) Ku Busch (+36) Kenseth (+11) Harvick (+6) Gordon (-2) Edwards (-14) Ky Busch (-15) Johnson (-23) Anyone else find it odd (and by odd, I mean revolting) that this system has punished the strongest drivers all year, yet rewarded the weaker ones? 88. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OldSchoolNascarDude, I agree with some your points in post #85, but I disagree with others. 1-The Chase: You are correct about the Chase being a terrible idea. I never like the Chase from the very moment it was instituted. There are sports that definately need a post-season. Auto racing of all kinds is definately not one of them. and there is no better example of how bad an idea the Chase is than the current official points standings. We have two guys who were languishing in obscurity in 10th and 11th now in first (Tony Stewart) and third (Brad Keselowski). 2-The Free Pass and the Wave Around: You are dead wrong about this one on both counts. As I mentioned in post #79, the free pass was institued as a way for teams that had trouble during the course of a race to catch up when the field is frozen by allowing the highest scored car not on the lead lap to make up a lap. As for the wave-around, which actually is an IRL idea from more than a decade ago, while I'm not a complete fan of it myself, the goal of this rule is to make sure that the leaders are ALWAYS the ones to lead the field to the green flag on restarts. having the leaders back in the pack on restarts is both confusing and dangerous, because the leaders often got caught up in a crash started in front of them by drivers taking huge risks and crashing, leaving the leaders nowhere to go. 3-Phantom Debris Cautions: Nobody in the right mind like this one, so I'll go on. 4-Drop Some of the Night Races: I have no problem with the races that are run at night, but your idea of having every track install lighting is a terrible idea. For instance, how can you install lights at Indy with the double-becker grandstands on the main strightaway? Then there are the road courses. There it just isn't feasible to install lights, and the same is true regarding Talladega. Now if you want to say that the series shouldn't even run at Talladega, because of the unsafe nature of the racing there, I won't argue that much, because Talladega is, in my opinion, an unsafe track, and has been since it was built. However, it is inexcuseable for a place like Martinsville not to have lights. 5-Allow Teams to Innovate: I'm kind of mixed on this one, because it would put some of the cheaters, like Chad Knaus, back in their element. Now, as for your point on the tires not falling off duriong a fuel run. well, for starters, a fuel run isn't nearly as long as it used to be. In fact, IndyCars now go longer between fuel stops than NASCAR's cars do. How backwards is that? Find a way to allow the cars to go between 90-100 miles on a tank of fuel. At Loudon last Sunday, the teams got barely 70 miles on a tank of fuel, and at tracks like Pocono and Indy, they were getting 80 miles maximum, and about 70 on average. When Ricky Rudd won at Indy in 1997, he got 115 miles on his last tank of fuel. And Tony Stewart got about 110 miles when he won at Pocono a couple of years ago. But I think they should go with a tire that has a little more give up during a run, but not so much that it causers repeated blowouts, as was the case at Charlotte in 2005 and Indy in 2008. 6-The 2-car draft: Actually, the 2-car draft is much safer than the pack racing that preceeded it, because the field would break up. That and the elimination of blocking, also caused by the 2-car drafts, has made racing at Daytona and Talladega safer than it's been in many years. (I think the increase of the holes in the restrictor plate for the upcoming race at talladega could lead to one of the worst racing specatcles in this country since the 1973 Indianapolis 500.) As for how to eliminate the 2-car drafts, that's easy. first cut the rear spoiler down to 3 inches, then make it so that the bumpers don't line up. The first change would make the cars harder to drive, and the second would make it impossible to push without liftling the rear wheels of the car you're pushing off the ground. 7-TV Deals: While there are some tracks that need to have shorter races (Pocono is finally getting with that program), there are tracks that shouldn't have two races, like Pocono, New Hampshire, and Phoenix. The reason some of these tracks are losing dates in the lower series comes down to one thing, and tha's paltry attendance. As for some networks putting their races on affiliate networks, what affiliate network does ESPN/ESPN2 have and what affiliate network does TNT have? And if you don't know, the Cup races currently on SPEED were actually taken off FX a number of years ago and put on SPEED. 8-GWC's/Double-File Restarts: Again, you're way off base here. The reason there's a GWC in Cup and Nationwide has to do with what happened in the spring Talladega race in 2004, and the near-riot that ensued. However, I do think they should go back to the old rule of just one GWC attempt. But the reason that's not an option has to do with what Kyle busch admitted to doing several years ago at Dover, when, knowing he had a tire going down while leading the race, he admitted that he tried to cause an accident behind him on the final restart. The multiple GWC rule has done away with that chicanery. And while the double-file restarts has its cons (notably giving the leader no real advantage, making it advantageous to run in a lower position on a restart on certain tracks), it ahs also made it so that the leaders always take the green flag first on restarts, as it should be. 9-Frozen Field: Obviously, you have not watched some of the older races, because racing back to the caution has caused some horrific things to happen, or nearly happen. The massive crash early in the 1973 Winston 500 at Talladega was made worse by drivers racing to the caution, and there were not one, but two incidents in the 1983 Daytona 500 caused by racing to the caution. first there was Darrell Waltrip's heavy crash, then there was a near-disaster when Neil Bonnett was charging through lapped cars trying to gain a lost lap from Joe Ruttman. Then there were moments of controversy, such as Robby Gordon passing his own teammate for the lead after the caution had com out. then there was the near-disaster at Loudon in the fall of 2003 when several cars nearly hit the stopped car of Dale Jarrett racing to the caution. 10-Age Demographic: Simply put, NASCAR has to cater to fan bases of all age demographics, young and old. They can't forget my golden rule, and that is "that to look to the future, you must first look at the past". That's what was so great about Trevor Bayne's Daytona 500 victory. Having a young man like Bayne (the youngest driver ever to win any 500-mile race, to be exact) win the sport's biggest even doubtlessly energized the younger followers, while seeing the grandest team on the circuit, Wood Brothers Racing, return to victory lane in the sport's biggest event, with a version of the classic piant job used by Cale Yarborough, Donnie Allison, A.J. Foyt, David Pearson, and Neil Bonnett, energized the older fans from the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, that followed the Woods through their glory years. 11-Driver Marketability: This ties into point #10. 12-Choosing a Series: I like the Cup drivers not being able to earn points in a lower series, though I think that lower series drivers should be allowed to earn points in the Cup series. The way to limit Cup drivers'participation in a lower series is this: Any current full-time driver with either three full years of Cup experience, or 100 Cup starts that is not a "start-and-park" should be limited to no more than 10-12 starts in the Nationwide series and 6-8 starts in the Truck Series. both figures would amount to one-third of the schedule. This would allow the lower series drivers ample opportunity to race against the Cup drivers that choose to compete in the lower series, while not allowing the Cup drivers to hog everything, though if such a rule is put into place, Roush or Gibbs may split one of their rides among several Cup drivers. These, OldSchoolNascarDude, are myopinions on the changes you think should be made. Like I said at the beginning of this post, I agree with some of your view, while I disagree with others, sometimes strongly, but you do have some good ideas. 89. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs382, thanks for the input and response. As for your disgreements: #2- Part of the reason I dislike the wave-around is its ability to give cars undeserving laps back. For instance, at road oourses, Pocono, and to an extent, Indianapols, cars are able to get laps back without really any penalty. They go around and can pit as the race goes back green to get on sequence with the leaders. At Indy it would have to be done on the restart, but at the other three tracks a stop can be made without losing a la p at all. I do agree that something should be done when a caution flies during a round of green stops, but how often does that really occur? Not much. #4- Fair enough. However, tracks like Dover, Martinsville and Loudon should have lights, just in case. #5- This has a lot to do with #2. Once all of these cars get put back on the lead lap it jumbles up pit strategy and leads to a lot of the fuel strategies we see now. Maybe with more tire fall off, the guys who get stuck back in traffic with fresh tires can make it back up through the field instead of having to get everything right after a resart. #6- The 2x2 keeps the traditional "Big One" from occurring, but it's caused a ton of spins or small crashes because the drivers haven't mastered the switch. #8- How many times have we saw the top line prevail on restarts? At some tracks it's a lot better to be 4th or 6th than to be 3rd or 5th. Maybe in the last 10 laps give the odd positioned drivers lane choice, but I like seeing guys restart a lap down and battle for a lap back. #9- If the track is covered with a crash, rain, significant debris, etc. the field should be frozen. I understand the safety crews need to check on drivers. However, if it's for a solo spin, stalled car or debris out of the groove, let the field race back. 90. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OSND, here's my thoughts on your points: 1. Agreed. (But only the 10th place driver could potentially be ahead. But - still, really!) 2a. Not agreed, entirely. The "Lucky Dog" rule (and boy do I HATE that term, even before Aaron's decided to add their pound of flesh!) is the inevitable and necessary byproduct of the "no racing back to the caution" rule. In the past, you had the "gentleman's agreement", and you'd often see the leaded slowing up to let team cars, drivers he "owed", or simply being a "genetleman" and letting as many lapped cars as possible get back on the lead lap/a lap back. When that was eliminated, NASCAR had to do something to allow lapped cars a chance to get a lap back in lieu of passing a slowing leader - hence, the "Lucky Dog". However, the way it's implemented isn't ideal. The rule SHOULD be that: - The first lapped car running behind the leader on the track, regardless of how many laps down they are, gets the free pass; - or, all cars one or more laps down running between the leader and the second-place car on the track get free passes. If there are no lapped cars between first and second place, no free pass; - or, the rule remains as is (first car one lap down), except that car must be in contact with the leader (i.e. could have caught and passed them if the leader slowed under the old system). 2b. Not entirely agreed. The Wave-Around was implmented at fan request, remember (and, as with the "BREAK UP THE PACKS!" at Daytona and 'Dega, be careful what you wish for...), but in execution...eh. It makes sense (you DID pass the leader, after all, so why shouldn't you get your full lap back?) but it does make things rather...cheap sometimes. I could take it or leave it, I guess. 3. Agreed. Remember, way back in the 1980s Bill France told Bill Elliott, "you might win all my races, but you will NOT stink up my shows"? Well, this is how. But I agree - if there's no debris, there should be no caution, or debris out of the way (soda can ON THE APRON at Talladega, for Pete's sake!) and a simple spin shouldn't necessarily be an "autoyellow". On the flip side, the network should be absolutely required to show debris when a caution comes out - heck, make it so the saftey crew holds up what they retrieve for the cameras. No doubts about Pierre deBris then! 4. Not sure about this one. I rather like night races, myself. However races that were "traditional" day races - the Firecracker 400 and Southern 500, for instance - should be day races still. Period. 5. Absolutely, 100% agreed. 6a. Agreed, but I still find it darkly amusing how the fans used to scream to break up the packs at the plate tracks, and now they're all saying how they want the packs back... 6b. ...also agreed. Partially. The yellow-line rule -was- created for a reason, but it's lead to last-lap stupidity more than once. Simple solution: once the leader takes the white flag, the yellow line becomes invsibile to the law. You want to pass somebody? Sure, go down on the apron - it's your sheetmetal... 7. TV Uber Alles, and that's all I'll say. Aside from the fact that when the two biggest World of Outlaws races of the year, televised live way back in the dark ages of the -mid 1990s- by TNN, are shown on more than a week's tape delay now, there's no hope for SPEED becoming SpeedVision again with regards to its coverage of lower series. 8a. GWCs...well, I can see the reasoning, but allowing for three is just silly. Simple rule, if the race would end under caution and the race can be restarted within two laps of the scheduled distance, then there is -one- attempt at a GWC. That doesn't work, it ends under caution (see #9 as well). 8b. Double file restart...I -HATE- this, as it makes it far too easy to gang up on somebody who's spent most of the race struggling to build their lead. Go back to the single file restarts, yes, it makes for less drama, but it's better competition...and, whoda thunk, gives the lapped cars a better chance at making up laps! 9. Hmm. That -could- work. Could lead to misunderstandings though "did you see the yellow-and-red striped flag* or the yellow flag?" the spotter asks as drivers hold their breath. (* Actually an existing racing flag - IndyCar and others use it to signal "fluid on track" at a road course when the caution flies.) Now, one rule change I would like to see would be "if the caution comes out after the leader has taken the white flag (=no GWC), then race back to the line". 10. Totally agreed, but the sponsors insist... 11. Also totally agreed. 12. I'm going to toot my own horn here once more with my Ideal System for Solving the Buschwacking! "Any driver in the top 35 in Cup Series points, who is entered in the Cup Series race on a given weekend, is not allowed to enter any other NASCAR national series (=Nationwide, CWTS) series race, unless they are a Cup rookie or are replacing an injured driver in the lower series in a one-race deal." This allows rookies to run both series (Harvick 2001), avoids the issue of "what do you do with someone who's lost their Cup ride and wants to 'move down' mid-season', and lets the Cup drivers run stand-alone races on off weekends if they desire. 91. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) clarifying my last point in the above: "Any driver in the top 35 in Cup Series points, who is entered in the Cup Series race on a given weekend, is not allowed to enter any other NASCAR national series (=Nationwide, CWTS) series race, unless they are a Cup rookie or are replacing an injured driver in the lower series in a one-race deal." should read "Any driver in the top 35 in Cup Series points, who is entered in the Cup Series race on a given weekend, is not allowed to enter any other NASCAR national series (=Nationwide, CWTS) series race on that weekend, unless they are a Cup rookie or are replacing an injured driver in the lower series in a one-race deal." 92. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see people are seeing right through all this "this is the most competitive era in NASCAR history, look at all the lead lap cars we have!!!" garbage. That has bugged me for quite some time. I don't care if 75 cars finish on the lead lap, if they only run single file under green and can only pass in the pits and the first two laps after a restart, then the race isn't worth a shit. "I love how Bruton Smith needlessly reconfigured several tracks that were already great (Bristol, Vegas, Sonoma, Atlanta) and yet he leaves this abomination as is." Exactly! Hmmmm, we have a racetrack that has races that are truly events, that can get 170,000 people to come to the desolate mountains of Tennessee, Let's reconfigure it! Hmmmmm, after many really boring races here, the pavement has finally aged enough that we just had a pretty good race with a stunning last corner pass for the win, let's throw down some new pavment on an even worse configuration! Hmmmmm, we have this really unique road course highlighted by a kick ass sweeping downhill left hand turn leading to a dragstrip (literally!) into a cool hairpin turn. Let's just have them totally bypass that! Hmmmmm, we have this very unique mile and a half track that is like nothing else, and we already have Charlotte and Texas that have that dogleg, let's piss on uniqueness make it look just like them! Hmmmmm, we have this flat track that nobody can pass on. It's perfect! "and I'm not sure Brian even knows how to fix it. Brain France (not a typo) doesn't know shit. The only thing he can fix is stuff that isn't broken, which he has done repeatedly. "All NASCAR has done is put these teams in a box, all they've done is make the advantage harder and more expensive to find, and with this current combination of rock hard tires, and freshly paved tracks, we've had more fuel mileage races then ever before." That sums it up perfectly. "That 48 team, for years, has been known for their ability to take a car that is midpack at best and get it to where Jimmie can drive it to the front when it counts." I agree. What's happening this year is he has grown weary of having the target on his back with people constantly taking shots at him while he has to just shrug it off. Now he is trying to push back (and failing, just ask the Busch Boys). He finally reached his breaking point. Plus, as cjs mentioned, they haven't been quite on their game since last year. "10)Age Demographic-I don't give a damn about whether an 18-34 audienceleads the way in watching races or not." I'm glad you mentioned this. I also hate this whole "we have to get the 18 to 34 males demo" crap. I am a 27 year old sports loving single male. I am the exact type of person they want to target, and it disgusts me. Let me tell you something about my generation: we are not all that great by and large. The fact that we will soon be in charge of most things scares the shit out of me. 93. Mr X posted: 09.26.2011 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, thanks for the corrections on how many times Bobby, and Bill won the Southern 500. You were right, I was tired and miscounted. As for whether I would enjoy the BTCC, I might however I'm a car guy, and I much prefer old cars, namely any American car made between 1955 and 1972, especially the early 1960's full size GM cars, old Biscayne's, Impala's, etc. I really can't stand most newer cars. Too many computers, they're all plastic, and they all look the same, not to mention there is way too much government regulation. A big portion of the reason I enjoy NASCAR racing is because the cars raced in the Sprint Cup division. They have more in common with the cars that I prefer, I love the fact that everything is controlled mechanically, I love the fact that these cars are carbureted, they have a distributor, they're pushrod V8's with crazy canted valvetrain, and the motors are turning 10 grand, they have basic suspension, front and rear, h-pattern 4 speed jericho transmissions, they have stamped steel wheels with 5 lug nuts, they have a steering box as apposed to a steering rack, a 2011 Chevy 1/2 ton has a steering rack. I love NASCAR because the cars are taking the old technology and proving how fast you can go with it. I'm sure I would like the BTCC if I enjoyed British sports cars, but I really don't. All NASCAR needs is better leadership. I also mentioned how I think cautions and cars getting their laps back should in post #21. 94. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My take on the rest of the 12 issues: 1) The cha$e has done nothing except grab the attention of the A.D.D. generation for about 5 minutes, and turn off multiple generations of true NASCAR fans. 2) I can handle the Lucky Dog, but not the wave around. 3) Could not agree more. Races are so much better when they get to play out naturally. 4) Absolutely! I have been saying this for a while. Night racing has lost its thrill. The races are much better in daylight with the changing temperatures and track conditions as the day goes on. The only night races should be the Summer Bristol and Richmond races, the ending of the Coke 600, and the exhibition races. 5) The real reason passing is so hard. If every car is the exact same, they will run the same speed, and you can't pass what is going the same speed as you. They have turned it into the IROC Series. IROC sucked. 6) It was fun for one race, but the last two have been hard to watch. And yes, the yellow line rule is awful. It has caused more wrecks than it has prevented. Plus it is a way for NASCAR to manipulate the finish if they want (compare '03 Dega to '08 Dega). Lose, lose, and lose. 7) I agree, but would like to add one thing: I want the word "history" banned from being used on TV broadcasts. 8) What was wrong with red flagging the race with late cautions? That worked fine and didn't mess up people's fuel mileage. 9) That would be hard to pull off, but it is a good idea. The better solution would be not to throw the caution every time somebody farts in the grandstands (actually, considering the race day diet of most fans, that deserves not only a yellow, but a red flag and a complete seating evacuation). Unless it is clearly a big chunk of metal in the racing groove of something more than a single car spin that will be quickly righted, keep the damn yellow flag in its slot. 10) Like I said in my previous post. I also meant to add throwing the long time fans a bone. They supported NASCAR before it was trendy and kept it afloat until companies realized the potential for advertising and sent it mainstream. 11) That would be a great idea if not for the fact that most NASCAR drivers are completely unlikeable. 12) AGREED!!!!!!!!!! 95. Mr X posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *should happen in post #21 96. Watto posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and with Alan Gustavson now calling the shots and giving him the best cars he's had in a decade" I'll have to disagree with that. Steve Letarte gave him absolutely phenomenal cars for a period.. heck, he had 6 wins in 2007. He should've had many more wins, except they failed to finish where they ran. I couldn't say that Richard Petty is automatically the best driver, unless you really mean most accomplished. If you compare David Pearson to Richard Petty, David's stats have better percentages in just about every category for a number of teams. That's certainly worth looking at IMO. 97. Talon64 posted: 09.26.2011 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) About #11, social media's already been a big help in that regard. You always hear that Jimmie Johnson's a funny guy away from the track and interviews, but it shines through on his Twitter account. And Matt Kenseth's got a sense of humor I never knew he had. Denny Hamlin was good to follow on Twitter too until NASCAR fined him last year and effectively muzzled him. About Stewart's win, all I wanted was for him to win a race before the year was over. Get the win, get 13 consecutive winning seasons, and I would've been happy if he'd ended up last in 11th (because Denny Hamlin's practically not in the Chase at all at this point). But back-to-back wins to start the Chase? I never would've dreamed of it, but now I'm stuck in the predicament of having 2 of my favorite drivers, Stewart and Keselowski, right in the hunt for the championship when they really have no right to be there in the first place; under the old system they're 9th and 11th in points respectively, and despite the 2 wins Stewart's having the worst season of his career in pretty much every other category. You would've thought Roush would be lucky to have just 1 car in the top 10 at Loudon but they ended up with all 4 in the top 8. It keeps Kenseth within a shot and it could give Carl a shot at leaving Dover in the points lead if he wins there. If there's two drivers (not including Denny Hamlin, he was done before he started) who I'd say are done as far as the championship's concerned, it's Ryan Newman and Kurt Busch. Considering how Newman ran in the July Loudon race, this is the kind of race that a driver circles on the calender and knows that they can gain a bunch of points in. Instead, he ends up 25th and I don't think he'll be able to run top 5 enough to make up the amount that he's behind. A top 5 finish in the points isn't out of the question, something I hope he can pull off for the first time in his career. And Kurt's out because he and the team are just a wreck right now. Failing pre-race tech, sucking all race and Kurt ranting on the radio to the point that Roger Penske had to get on to calm him down... this is not a team that looks capable of turning things around in quick enough order to get back in the hunt. Kyle Busch, and Dale Jr. could be done after Dover if they don't get a good finish to at least maintain the gap if not cut it down. 98. Cooper posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "85. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.11 - 1:41 pm" Here's my opinions... 1. The Chase--Good Idea, Bad Execution. I want to see the best drivers battle it out at the end of the season, but I don't want to see drivers that don't deserve a chance, have a chance. My idea would be the Top 5. The Top 5 after 26 races are reset. 10 is too much and 12 is too much. There are 29 competitive full time team and 12 of them get in. Too much 2. Free pass needs to stay. Before 2003 drivers got there laps back by the leader slowing down and letting them by. Sometimes as many as 6 cars would get there lap back on a certain caution, so giving 1 back isn't a problem. The wave around can go away. If there's drivers in front of the leader, just make them go behind them. These lap down drivers can still get there lap back through the lucky dog. 3. Fake Debris cautions are embarrassing. Enough said. 4. Night races are good once in a while. My night races would be: Daytona (Summer), Charlotte (Spring), Bristol (Summer), Richmond (Fall), Phoenix (Fall) 5. I've commented before that teams need more room. It's hard to pass the car in front of you, if it's exactly the same thing. Put the race back into the driver and crew chiefs hands. 6. 2X2 Tango--Meh. Who cares? It's a fad. It'll eventually fade. 7. TV Deals-- This is where most of NASCAR's revenue comes from. If FOX wants to make each race look like a video game or boxing match, then go right ahead. As long as they continue to pay NASCAR money that keeps the sport healthy it's okay. They just need to make sure their analysts and personalities stay unbiased and give the viewers good information (I'm looking at you DW. Here's a normal conversation involving the FOX booth...) DW: Kyle Busch is flying out there! Mike: He's 23rd... DW: He's saving his stuff. That's the new Kyle Busch. Mike: Ohhh, Kyle Busch has just spun out... (Awkward silence) DW: He must've cut a tire. Mike: Nope, he just lost it. DW: Maybe he broke an axle. Mike: Nope. Just got loose. DW: I beg to differ. Larry: Pit Stops. Here they all come for 4 Goodyear tires and Sunoco racing fuel. 8. GWC/Double file restarts are awesome. I love it. I hated it when the races ended under caution. Especially the 2002 Pepsi 400 and the 2005 Aaron's 499. So aggravating. 9. Race back to the line. That was the rule when I started watching, so I still believe this is right. Only in small portions, did something go wrong. (Sonoma 2003) and (New Hampshire 2003). But I'm fine with freezing the field as well. 10. Age demographic is stupid. Having to listen to my marketing professor for 3 years, was pure hell. A lot of the stuff involving marketing is a huge farce. A product doesn't have to be marketed to a certain type of person, if the product is good. For example, professional wrestling. The more they try to target an audience, the worse the product. Just write good story lines and give entertaining matches and everyone will tune in, no matter the age. 11. Driver Marketability- Thank you for twitter. Twitter might have saved the world. The information and insight from the drivers is awesome. Add into the fact that drivers are putting in more effort, and we have ourselves the most interactive sport in North America. 12. Agree totally. All the monies in the minor series should go to the drivers and teams that put their resources into that series. Joe gibbs and Kyle Busch shouldn't be allowed to enter a dominant truck and steal the win plus $50000. It's a monopoly. Overall though, I don't think it's right to criticize the sport this year. I've thoroughly enjoyed this season and found everything very entertaining and refreshing. BUT, my one big issue is GOODYEAR. They infuriate me. Make me a tire that wears out but doesn't implode in 10 laps damn't! You're a billion dollar company, act like one. 99. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, when that driver runs a lower series race, he receives no driver/owner points and he gets no race purse. Instead, that money is taken out and distributed equally to all of the others regulars who competed in that race." All that does is hurt teams, not drivers. 100. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The wave around can go away. If there's drivers in front of the leader, just make them go behind them. These lap down drivers can still get there lap back through the lucky dog." The problem with this is that it's a de facto penalty. It used to be: you could not pit, restart in front of the leader, and pray for a quick caution to make up the rest of the lap you just got back before the leader passed you. It's now: you can not pit, line up in front of the leader, get the wave-around, restart at the back of the pack and pray for a quick caution so you can make your pitstop and get back on cycle. Having it where you can not pit, line up in front of the leader, then get told to let the leaders by putting you back a lap down would be...well, pretty silly at best, a penatlty for trying an alternative strategy at worst. We want to open things up, not take a strategy option away. 101. Talon64 posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart picks up his 41st career Sprint Cup Series win, his 2nd of 2011 and the first time he's won back-to-back races since wins at Chicagoland and Indianapolis back in 2007. It's his 3rd win at Loudon (first since 2005), and 3rd top 2 finish in the last 4 races there. He's now tied with Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Kurt Busch and Ryan Newman for the 2nd most wins all time at Loudon (Jeff Burton is 1st with 4). His 14 top 5's and 16 top 10's (in 26 starts) at Loudon are 2nd only to Jeff Gordon all time who has 15 and 19 respectively (34 starts). It's Stewart Haas Racing's 10th win in 100 races (200 starts between the #14 and #39) since forming from the old Haas Racing team in 2009. They sweep Loudon, following up Ryan Newman's victory in the July race. Since his awful 28th place run at Bristol, Tony's had 2 wins, 3 top 3 finishes and a 7th in the last 4 races (3.0 avg fin, outscoring everyone by 12 points). Brad Keselowski gets his 4th top 2 and 6th top 5 in the last 9 races, which has seen him outscore the competition by 21 points (Jeff Gordon's 2nd). He's also seen his average finish on the season go from 19.5 to 14.7 in that span (4.6 avg fin in the last 9 races). It's Keselowski's 2nd top 10 in 5 Loudon starts (17.4 avg fin), just the 3rd track that he has multiple top 10's at. Greg Biffle ends a drought of 20 straight races without a top 5 finish (2nd worst of his career, with 38 straight in 2003-04 his worst) with a season-best of 3rd. It's his 5th top 5 in 19 career Loudon races but first in the 6 races since his 2008 win. With a race-high 78 laps led, Jeff Gordon's on pace for his first season with 1000+ laps led since 2007 when he led the year with 1300. As previously mentioned, he's the all time leader at Loudon in top 5's and top 10's, but he also leads in laps led with 1304. It's Jeff's 13th straight top 15 finish at Loudon, which includes 3 runner-up finishes, 6 top 5's, 7 top 10's and a 7.9 average finish. Brian Vickers picked up his first top 5 in 17 races and first top 10 in 13. It's his 20th career top 5 (247 starts) and 2nd in 13 Loudon starts (21.6 avg fin). Matt Kenseth matched his top 10's from all of 2010 with his 15th of the season. 5 in the last 8 races will give him 20 for the first time since 2008 and the 5th time in 12 seasons. It's his first top 15 finish in 8 Loudon starts but his 12th top 10 in 24 career starts there (14.0 avg fin). In the last 3 races David Ragan has 1 top 5, 2 top 10's and a 7.3 avg fin to go from 23rd to 17th in the standings (25.3 avg fin in the previous 6 races which dropped him from 16th to 23rd). It's his first top 10 in 10 Loudon starts (23.6 avg fin). Carl Edwards matches his 2010 season total with his series-leading 19th top 10 of 2011 and 5th straight; he also leads the season with a 10.6 average finish. It's just his 3rd top 10 at Loudon, but with 14 top 20 finishes in 15 starts he has a solid 13.9 avg fin. JPM gets just his 4th top 10 in the last 22 races, and just his 2nd in 10 Loudon starts (19.5 avg fin). After no top 10's in his first 95 starts, Regan Smith picked up his 5th of 2011 and is on pace for a career-best finish of 25th in the standings (#78 Furnitore Row team is 247 points ahead of the next-best single car effort, #13 Germain team which is 32nd in the owners points). Clint Bowyer has led the most laps this season without winning a race, 320. But Kasey Kahne, who led 43 laps in the race, is 2nd at 317. Greg Biffle's 3rd at 234. 102. Talon64 posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1. The Chase--Good Idea, Bad Execution. I want to see the best drivers battle it out at the end of the season, but I don't want to see drivers that don't deserve a chance, have a chance. My idea would be the Top 5. The Top 5 after 26 races are reset. 10 is too much and 12 is too much. There are 29 competitive full time team and 12 of them get in. Too much" Not a bad idea as long as the top 5 only score points in relation to each other. Something like 5 points for top finisher, 1 point for lowest, with 2 bonus points for a high of 7 for whoever wins a race. 103. NazRacePhan posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow... nobody brought up Kurt's team failing pre-race inspection OR Tony saying they "cut dead weight" from the team?? 104. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt's failing pre-race inspection was declared a non-issue by NASCAR: no penalties. They were apparently sending the 22 a message. "(#78 Furnitore Row team is 247 points ahead of the next-best single car effort, #13 Germain team which is 32nd in the owners points)." Strictly speaking, Germain isn't a single-car team; the #60 is their second (albiet always start-and-park) car. 105. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Entry list for Dover is out. 45 cars: -Reed Sorenson in the #7 -Stremme in the #30 -Bliss in the #32 (from now on this will be considered 'standard' -Wise in the #37 -Yeley in the #38 -Kvapil in the #55 106. Talon64 posted: 09.26.2011 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "OR Tony saying they "cut dead weight" from the team??" By which Tony might've meant his girlfriend (now ex-girlfriend?), Jessica Zemken. 107. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I think these are the story lines heading into Dover. 1)Kyle Busch. As past history has indicated, he and his team have struggled with the pressure on them during the Chase. However, this is one of his best tracks. I think a top 5 is imperative to give him and his crew some confidence back. 2)Tires. The Spring race basically came down to Matt Kenseth taking a top 5 car and using strategy to get a victory. Will the tire situation be the same this week? 3)Jimmie Johnson. I won't count these guys out unless they're 49 points out leaving Phoenix. They showed last season they can overcome late season deficits. I expect them to show up and win this week. They'll make this a statement race. 4)Attendance. This track has had a negative trend for attendance over the past few years. Is the Dover Motor Sports Marketing team to be blamed? Is it the racing? The weather? It's put up or shut up for Dover. They have already shut down several tracks over the past couple of seasons. Losing a Chase date would be devastating for this group. 5)Non-Chasers. Will the Dinger be another first time winner this season? Will Jeff Burton wake up and show he still has "it"? Maybe Mark Martin gives Hendrick one more good memory between the two before he leaves. I wouldn't be shocked to see a non-chase driver spoil the party this weekend. 108. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, the problem with your point about racing to the checkered flag if the caution comes out on the last lap is this: What if, as was the case in the 1967 Indianapolis 500, there's a major accident between your position on the track and the S/F line? You certainly can't race with wrecked cars all around you. DSFF, one big problem with the Chase is the fact that there are no big races in it. That's why I've said move either the Brickyard 400 or the Southern 500 to the Chase opener. remember that in 2004, the Southern 500 was the next-to-last race in the Chase, and had a BIG impact on the championship. Namely, Jeff Gordon not winning it, due to a bad late-race pit stop. And if there's an accident late in the race that's going to take time to clean up, they still stop the race. There just haven't been that many incidents of that type recently. And Watto, Alan Gustavson is giving Jeff Gordon the best cars he's had in a decade. You are right in saying that he won six times in 2007. But quite frankly, he lucked into three or four of those wins, as crazy things happened to benefit him. He was on pit road when a caution came out late at Phoenix, putting him in the lead on the ensuing restart, Steve Letarte caught the rain just right at Pocono, Jimmie Johnson handed him the lead late in the Southern 500 (it wasn't called that then) by pitting, and Ryan Newman cut a left rear tire when he had a big lead on Gordon in the fall race at Charlotte and crashed. So Gordon sort-of backed into most of his wins in 2007, though he also gave one away at Watkins Glen, and he hasn't got his confidence on road courses back yet. And Cooper, you should watch the 1983 Daytona 500, if you can, and you'll see why racing to the caution was such a bad idea. David Hobbs, who was on the CBS broadcast crew, criticized that idea even then, and wasn't until late in the 2003 season that NASCAR finally saw the light and abolished that practice. And Talon64, the only reason that Roush finished with all four cars in the top eight had to do with the number of cars in front of the Roush cars that had to stop for fuel late. It really wasn't that good a performance overall, except for Greg Biffle. David Ragan was even lapped early in the race, but got with the leaders as a result of the second caution period, in which he was one of only four cars on the lead lap, due to the fact that the caution flag fell during green flag pit stops, and he hadn't yet made his during that round of pitting. And of course, there was the incident in which Edwards spun Kenseth out, bringing out the race's third and last caution period. The Roush cars really didn't run that well, except for Biffle, they just benefitted from the late-race misfortunes of many of those in front of them. 109. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OldSchoolNascarDude, what track HASN'T seen a negative trend in the attendence department in recent years? Any track or race the gets the same number of fans that it got the previous race, or the previous year's race these days must be seen as a comparitive increase in attendance. 110. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #99, TheTruth: I disagree. It's on the teams to market out drivers. The only exceptions may be Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick because they run their own equipment. Even those guys should do something to promote sponsors to unproven drivers. Organizations like Gibbs have great stuff and I realize they have problems even getting Logano secured for races. But if they're racing unsponsored, I'd rather see guys like Drew Herring, Ryan Truex, Brad Coleman, Michael McDowell and Matt Dibenedetto. I'll give Roush credit, when Bayne was out and the car was blank, he ran non cup guys in a few of those races. 111. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872: I agree, but it appears that Dover hasn't tried to accommodate many of its long time ticket holders and have failed to offer any type of package that seems worthwhile for a newcomer to attend. At least other tracks have at least went down on tickets or offered attractive promotions for fans. That's just what I've gathered from radio and other media personalities because I've never actually been to Dover before. 112. 12345Dude posted: 09.26.2011 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Missed the race, I went to the bills game. I have in my whole life never seen the Bills have a winning season (more wins then loses). It happen once in 2004 were in the last game of the season they got killed by the Steelers 2nd string players. Cost us the playoffs. After 16 straight games of the Patriots embarsing us, we finally beat them. Once the game was over the crowd went insane. Football has an advantage over nascar (or racing). Its so much better when a whole stadium is cheering for the same person. When you go to a nascar race everyone has a different favorite driver (unless its Junior). I also think everyone on here is counting Jimmie Johnson out, when they shouldn't. I think he's still the favorite. Also a lot of people are also giving stewart too much credit. After when he was in victory lane, he didnt even seem to think he had a shot at the title. I don't think he believes he can win it either. Also can someone explain the chase to me? Tony Stewart 1st in Strandings Brad Keselowski 3rd in Standings Dale Earnhardt Junior 6th in Standings Jimmie Johnson 10th in Standings WTF 113. Talon64 posted: 09.26.2011 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony started going on this run after he said he didn't belong in the Chase. So the less he believes, the better they run. So he better continue to not have any faith in his team. lol "Also can someone explain the chase to me? Tony Stewart 1st in Strandings Brad Keselowski 3rd in Standings Dale Earnhardt Junior 6th in Standings Jimmie Johnson 10th in Standings WTF" 8th 11th 10th 2nd wtf indeed. 114. Anonymous posted: 09.26.2011 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Missed the race, I went to the bills game. I have in my whole life never seen the Bills have a winning season (more wins then loses). It happen once in 2004 were in the last game of the season they got killed by the Steelers 2nd string players. Cost us the playoffs. After 16 straight games of the Patriots embarsing us, we finally beat them. Once the game was over the crowd went insane. Football has an advantage over nascar (or racing). Its so much better when a whole stadium is cheering for the same person. When you go to a nascar race everyone has a different favorite driver (unless its Junior)." As a Patriots fan who lives in Boston this post saddens me. But I agree that the whole atmosphere of a race is diminished by the fact that every person in the stands supports a different driver. It adds a lot to have so much support for one group. 115. cjs3872 posted: 09.26.2011 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12435Dude and Talon64, now you see why I say that championships in the Cup series don't carry as much weight as they used to. The facts and statistical points you both just made illustrate my point for me more than anything I could come up with. The Chase has devalued the championship immensely. That is why that Jimmie Johnson's five consecutive titles don't carry the weight of even the three won by the likes of Cale Yarborough (which were consecutive), Darrell Waltrip, and David Pearson. His individual race wins still carry the weight, but not the championships. I thank the two of you for making my point for me. 116. 00andJoe posted: 09.26.2011 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #47 sponsor: Bush's Baked Beans/Hannaford #37 sponsor: Max Q Motorsports 117. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.26.2011 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still say we can't devalue JJ's titles. NASCAR announced how the champion would be determined, and no matter how screwed up their system for doing so is (and it truly is a pile of trash), everyone knows the last 10 races determines everything, and in addition to the team having a great plan for those 10 races year, JJ has held up remarkably under the pressure cooker for the previous 5 years. Besides, if you look at all the other important categories over the past 10 years like wins, laps led, crown jewel wins, etc, he leads everyone by a mile. It's like that saying I hate so much, but is very appropriate here: Don't hate the player, hate the game. I hate the cha$e, but I can't devalue JJ's success in it. He is a deserving 5 time champ and one of the greatest ever. I personally have him ahead of Gordon. As far as Tony's "dead weight" comment, I'm gonna wait to see what he was talking about. I hope it isn't what it lots of people are speculating it is. If so, then that is about as low as it gets from a human being perspective. Surely even Tony wouldn't dip that low. He may be one of the most miserable people on the planet, but he has to have at least a shred of human decency in him. He gives money to charities like it is water. So I will wait to see. 118. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.26.2011 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Missed the race, I went to the bills game. I have in my whole life never seen the Bills have a winning season (more wins then loses). It happen once in 2004 were in the last game of the season they got killed by the Steelers 2nd string players. Cost us the playoffs. After 16 straight games of the Patriots embarsing us, we finally beat them." Congrats. I wasn't sure what to make of the Bills after their 2-0 start. When I saw the Pats went up 21-0 on the ticker, I thought "eh, same old Bills". You can imagine my surprise when I saw they were leading late. When it went to OT, I thought "well, good effort, but the experienced Pats are gonna bury them now". Wrong. You guys are for real. 119. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.26.2011 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can't really blame Chad and Jimmie for beating the system they're dealt with. I have no doubt in my mind they would race with more urgency in the first 26 races if the Chase didn't exist. 120. 12345Dude posted: 09.26.2011 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "12435Dude and Talon64, now you see why I say that championships in the Cup series don't carry as much weight as they used to. The facts and statistical points you both just made illustrate my point for me more than anything I could come up with. The Chase has devalued the championship immensely. That is why that Jimmie Johnson's five consecutive titles don't carry the weight of even the three won by the likes of Cale Yarborough (which were consecutive), Darrell Waltrip, and David Pearson. His individual race wins still carry the weight, but not the championships. I thank the two of you for making my point for me." I have to agree with DSFF. You can't blame Jimmie Johnson. It's not his fault that Brain created the "chase". So I can't blame him, for reaping the benefits. I still say his 5 titles, are better then Gordon's 4. "As far as Tony's "dead weight" comment, I'm going wait to see what he was talking about. I hope it isn't what it lots of people are speculating it is. If so, then that is about as low as it gets from a human being perspective. Surely even Tony wouldn't dip that low. He may be one of the most miserable people on the planet, but he has to have at least a shred of human decency in him. He gives money to charities like it is water. So I will wait to see." I sure hope so. I don't know who the comment might have been pointed to. But I have been so proud of him, and amazed and how mature he has gotten. He is miserable, cause his team is doing so bad. But he's not acting like the idiot he used to be. He did a complete 180. Hope he didn't do anything stupid with that comment. "Congrats. I wasn't sure what to make of the Bills after their 2-0 start. When I saw the Pats went up 21-0 on the ticker, I thought "eh, same old Bills". You can imagine my surprise when I saw they were leading late. When it went to OT, I thought "well, good effort, but the experienced Pats are going to bury them now". Wrong. You guys are for real" I wasn't even excited after the first two weeks. The chiefs right now look like the worse team in the league. And the raiders, are the raiders (atleast for the last 10 years). So I wasn't excited after those 2 wins. But this game proved they are for real. 121. Eric posted: 09.26.2011 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would put any stock into the Buffalo Bills yet despite their 3-0 start. There had been NFL team had 3-0 starts and didn't make the playoffs like the 2008 Bills,1993 saints, and the 1989 bears as examples. 122. Anonymous posted: 09.26.2011 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am guessing it is something about Tony Stewart's personal life in terms "getting a rid of dead weight" comment. I am not going to pick sides if is that case if it is a women issue. Men that are famous are capable of being used by women or women dating them for money only. Dale Earnhardt Jr. himself admitted that he isn't married because he is afraid of a women marry him for his wealth only. The other hand is celebrities are capable doing stuff like cheating on a girlfriend or boyfriend. Even it is not about anything romantic, people are capable of using celebrities in terms of asking for money or take advantage of a person in other ways. 123. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.27.2011 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It seems like Gordo does better in battles against the heat." I agree. Whether it's pressure (which he got plenty of from JJ at Atlanta for the win) or just having to race on a hot day, Jeff really thrives. There's a reason the guy won 4 straight Southern 500's at Darlington. "Glad to see people are seeing right through all this "this is the most competitive era in NASCAR history, look at all the lead lap cars we have!!!" garbage." I am too. Races from the 80's and 90's were more exciting, and they didn't have nearly as many cars on the lead lap at the end like today's races do. To me, a competitive era means many teams having a shot to win championships. Only one team has won the last five. "Denny Hamlin was good to follow on Twitter too until NASCAR fined him last year and effectively muzzled him." That was just totally ridiculous that NASCAR fined Denny and Ryan Newman for something they said on a website. Even worse, they felt the need to do it IN SECRET! They come off as trying to hide something by doing that. And just a side note, I dislike both Hamlin and Newman. "I still say we can't devalue JJ's titles. NASCAR announced how the champion would be determined, and no matter how screwed up their system for doing so is (and it truly is a pile of trash), everyone knows the last 10 races determines everything, and in addition to the team having a great plan for those 10 races year, JJ has held up remarkably under the pressure cooker for the previous 5 years." I completely agree. I talked about this not too long ago in one of the recent Cup races discussion. 124. Red posted: 09.27.2011 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can't really blame Chad and Jimmie for beating the system they're dealt with. I have no doubt in my mind they would race with more urgency in the first 26 races if the Chase didn't exist." Exactly. Even though the 48 has won all their championships under the chase format, you can't fairly say they've only won BECAUSE of the chase format. I firmly believe Jimmie would still have five championships under any points system, though maybe not consecutively. Thirty years from now, it'll be interesting to see how Jimmie's legacy ultimately turns out. In a bizarre way, I almost feel like JJ winning all these chase championships is hurting his legacy; it gives his detractors a convenient excuse to devalue his accomplishments, as wrong as that may be. For Jimmie's sake, I hope NASCAR will do away with the chase before his career is over, and maybe he can win one under a convential points system to shut up the doubters once and for all. 125. Red posted: 09.27.2011 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I wholeheartedly agree that if Jeff Gordon reaches 100 wins, he will surpass Richard Petty in the greatest-of-all-time discussions. Honestly, I already think Jeff's accomplishments are more impressive than Petty's, given the context of each driver's era. Maybe this is way off base, but I get the impression a lot of fans overrate Petty's on-track accomplishments because of the impact he had on the sport, specifically in regard to relations with fans, signing autographs, and being the face of NASCAR (hence The King). I think Richard Petty is the most important and most influencial figure in NASCAR history, but that doesn't make him the best driver. *Full disclaimer: I'm only 25, and never saw Richard in his prime, so I might be biased in favor of modern guys like Gordon, simply because I've actually seen him race and followed his career in greater detail. 126. 18fan posted: 09.27.2011 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 54 wins in less than 10 seasons so far for Jimmie should land him as one of the all time greats regardless of how you feel about his championships. I don't dislike him, but I don't really like him and I root for anybody but the 48 to win every week, but what they have done, again regardless of how you feel about their championships, is extremely impressive and demands a ton of respect. On a different note, this was the fewest laps Tony Stewart ever led in a race he won. His previous low was 5 at Kansas in 2006, the only other one of his 41 wins in which he led less than 10 laps. 127. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 09.27.2011 - 1:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 110: how does it not hurt the teams? they could have someone 34th in Cup points in their car, and they can't make a single dime off of it, despite all the entry fees, license costs, etc? that'd be absolutely ridiculous. Most drivers in Cup make a good living off of the top series, but there are some lesser-thought of drivers that can be considered "Buschwhackers" and make very, very little. You take the purse away, and it hurts teams more than drivers... unless it's a driver who makes very little in Cup to begin with, in which case it hurts the driver a little bit too. Nationwide payouts are a joke to begin with. Maybe it should be regulated, but it shouldn't be regulated in a way that leads to something completely unfair. There's nothing to disagree with. Less money hurts the teams. You literally cannot tell me anything different. 128. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 09.27.2011 - 2:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Cup drivers who finish in the top 35 points from the previous season should not be eligible to drive in the lower series." I mean, let's be serious here. That means that Kevin Conway, Elliott Sadler, Scott Speed, and Sam Hornish Jr would be SOL. It's not that simple. When it comes down to it, teams should be able to run who they want when they want. If they don't want some no-name kid tearing up their cars, they should be able to put a veteran in their car. After all, they're a business too. If NASCAR wanted to limit Cup drivers in lower divisions, you'd think that a good start would be having Nationwide and trucks not follow the Cup schedule around so much. Look at how it used to be. If Nationwide's in a whole other region every weekend, you're not gonna get as many Cup drivers trying to run as many Nationwide races. 129. irony posted: 09.27.2011 - 4:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm happy for you 12345, always hope for the small market teams to do well. Wish I put a buck on a Detroit-Buffalo Superbowl. Tony Stewart seems to be involved in a lot of fuel mileage races at NH. The announcers brought up last year, but didn't even mention 1999 when Stewart was denied his first career win. 130. CarlEdwards99 posted: 09.27.2011 - 4:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And who do the younger Roush drivers really look up to? The answer is Kenseth." I agree with you about the championship part, thats a trump card for Kenseth. But the quoted part above isn't true. Stenhouse and Ragan are real tight with Carl. 131. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.27.2011 - 5:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, without the Chase Jimmie would only have 3 titles (I count 2008 because if the old system were used, Jimmie wouldn't have deliberately finished 15th at Homestead). 2006, 2008, and 2009 would be his only titles and under the old system his points total would farcical compared to the champion. I won't go so far as to say the Chase has made undeserving champions, but it has made undeserving champions for 2004, 2007, and 2010. You wouldn't realize it because it was suppressed, but Harvick actually had a danged good season average finish killed by the Chase. The things that I think really sully the Chase are two things: 1) Every Chase champ has a reputation of being a human scumhole towards their teammates (remember Kurt at Roush?), and (2) Jimmie is nowhere close to being the most talented driver on the circuit; Jimmie is just smarter than the average bear, but talent is severely lacking and the only talent he has is for SODA Trucks. To me, the def of a talented driver is being able to figure out how to drive a 30th place car and improve your position without adjusting the car; unfortunately, too many drivers just quit and don't try (both Buschs in particular). That is how talent is measured in the rest of the world of racing. Note: Have any of you noticed that your personal view of a driver goes down when that driver is liked by a person (friend, relative, etc.) who is an absolute scumbag? I have noticed that that hurts my view of Jimmie because all the people I know who like Jimmie do not DESERVE to EVER have their driver even finish in the top-10. Thought I would share it from the viewpoint of a person who used to watch and became mesmerized by the dangers of European racing. 132. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2011 - 9:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nico, they would havd raced differently in the first 26 without the cha$e. The way they raise their game in the last 10 is not a coincidence. On a down note, Matt's wife Katie broke her shoulder practicing for a charity race involving some of the driver's wives. Ouch. Hope she recovers well. 133. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 10:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, ever hear of YouTube? There you can see quite a number of Petty's wins, especially the Daytona 500s. In fact, with the exception of 1984-'85, every Daytona 500 broadcast, in some shape or form, since ABC last Daytona 500 broadcast in 1978, can currently be seen there, not to mention lots of other old races can be seen there. In fact, the ENTIRE races from 1979-'82 can be seen, though some of the parts from the 1980 and '82 races are out of order. So if you are a fan of Petty or Bobby Allison, you can see their Daytona 500 triumphs, as well as other race wins by some of the greatest drivers in history, such as Yarborough, Waltrip, and Earnhardt. As for my greatest of all time opinion, I say that 100 wins would put Gordon over the top, because that would be a greater feat than Petty's 200 wins, due to the increased competition level. After all, Petty's true trump card in this discussion IS the 200 wins, not the seven Daytona 500 wins, or the seven championships. And NRF, without the Chase, Johnson would, in my estimation, have just two championships, 2006, as well as 2004, since Johnson's team would not have been experimenting with the 232-point lead they had built up after the dominating win in the second Pocono race. They would have been able to cruise home to the championship, so Johnson's championship years, had the Chase not been adopted, would have been 2004 and 2006. He would never have been able to catch Kyle Busch and/or Carl Edwards in 2008, nor would he have been able to catch Tony Stewart in 2009, the latter for the same reason I mentioned that Johnson would never have lost his point lead in 2004. 134. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 10:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CarlEdwards99, I don't know who all the younger drivers at Roush look up to, but Matt Kenseth is the true leader among the drivers there, and has been ever since his mentor Mark Martin left after ther 2006 season, nor do I know who David Ragan looks up to there. Ricky Stenhouse clearly looks up to Edwards, and apparently, if you look at the latest Ricky vs. Trevor video challenge, Edwards may have even taught Stenhouse how to do a backflip. As for Trevor, it seems that he looks up to the Hendrick drivers more than he looks up to any of the Roush drivers. After all, especially when he runs the Wood Brothers' car (which may end after this season, though I hope if it does, that he lands somewhere solid in either Cup or Nationwide, with full sponsorship which would be a positive change for him), you almost always see him talking to Jeff Gordon (his racing idol growing up) or Jimmie Johnson, rather than to any of the Roush drivers, which I think bothers those at Ford and Roush Racing to no end. 135. 00andJoe posted: 09.27.2011 - 11:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course, when you look at the record of Gordon and Johnson vs Anybody From Roush (Combined), you can hardly blame him. 136. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2011 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HA! Here is Matt's Twitter update on Katie: "Katie is feeling pretty good today, and I got to learn something new....how to put a bra ON!" Like has been said earlier here, Twitter has allowed some of these guys to show their personality. I've always known the whole "Matt is boring" this was BS. If you listen to what he says and not his dry Mid Western manner of speaking, he is very interesting. This quote made me laugh out loud. Besdies, I've always felt him and Katie have the most real relationship among the top NASCAR drivers. 137. Curran posted: 09.27.2011 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm VERY surprised that some people are now calling Stewart the favorite for this championship. I just don't see it - This is a smoke and mirror show if there ever was one. During the first 26 races, that team had only three top 5's ALL SEASON!!!!! Now, both of his wins to kick off the Chase were a result of fuel milage. It's hard to see Stewart as a strong enough player in the races that comes down to pure speed. The #14 team certainly deserves credit for having the field covered in the fuel milage suit, but at the end of the day, it's still doubtful that will be trump. I'm not really sure I trust Harvick either. He has failed to finish in the top 10 in 7 of the last 11 races now - And that certainly won't get it done. Throw in the always interesting "No driver who has led the Chase after week two has ever gone on to win it" stat and it's very possible that the winner will come from deep in this current field. The most defining moments of this championship battle still lie ahead of us - And if I'm right, they are going to be awfully memerable. 138. Cooper posted: 09.27.2011 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll wait till Talladega is over. If Brad can survive Talladega, then I can make a strong case for him being your 2011 Sprint Cup Champion. And that there would shake the foundation of our sport. It would be the grandest of upsets in the sports world. Brad was 200-1 to win the championship this year. This still seems like a dream. It doesn't make any sense. No one in the history of this sport has gone from mid-packer to champion in 6 months. Nobody. 139. Talon64 posted: 09.27.2011 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm VERY surprised that some people are now calling Stewart the favorite for this championship. I just don't see it - This is a smoke and mirror show if there ever was one. During the first 26 races, that team had only three top 5's ALL SEASON!!!!! Now, both of his wins to kick off the Chase were a result of fuel milage. It's hard to see Stewart as a strong enough player in the races that comes down to pure speed. The #14 team certainly deserves credit for having the field covered in the fuel milage suit, but at the end of the day, it's still doubtful that will be trump." Tony had the best car at the end of the race, he was probably going to win even without the fuel mileage deal. At worst he would've finished top 3, which is where ran for the last 100 laps of the race. He was on the lucky end of the fuel mileage deal at Loudon, but without it he had a good shot at a top 5 finish. Dover and Martinsville are the two places I'm really worried out (not including Talladega which is a worry for every driver). Otherwise he's been solid on the intermediate tracks, of which there's 4 in the last 8 races and he ran great at Phoenix earlier in the year. plus Brad Keselowski proves past history doesn't mean shit if you get on a hot streak. 140. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of fuel mileage, one of the big reasons for the increase in fuel mileage races in the last couple of years, and it hasn't been mentioned, is that NASCAR recently changed the fuel the teams are using. Until either 2009 or 2010, they were using leaded fuel, but in the spring race at California in either '09 or '10, I forget which year, NASCAR started using unleaded fuel. But since then, they changed the fuel again, this time from a gasoline-based fuel to an ethanol-based fuel. That change has resulted in about a 15-20% reduction in fuel mileage. Add that to the fueling system they're using this year, in which it's extremely difficult to get the car full of fuel, and what you get is that cars that used to run 90-100 miles on a tank of fuel easily, even with the 18-19 gallon fuel cells currently in use, can now barely get 75-80 miles, and quite a number of cars can't even get that much out of a tank of fuel. Then there is the situation with the tires. the teams can now change two tires on a pit stop, or no tires at all, simply because they don't have to go as far before the next pit stop is made, if the end of the race isn't near enough to mean they won't have to stop again. Until recent years, a lot of the tire-related problems seen came in the last 10-20% of a fuel run. Well, now the drivers, especially the more aggressive drivers, don't have to worry about potential blowouts due to running too hard, because they can't run that extra 10-20%, since they can no longer go that far on a tank of fuel. But the fuel mileage races we're seeing have more to do with the changes in the actual fuel that NASCAR is using, due to wanting to help the environment (not that that's a bad thing, because it's not), rather than tires, though I think that with the cars not being able to go nearly as far on a tank of fuel as they used to, Goodyear can give the teams a grippier tire, if they so desired. After all, and I mentioned this in post #88, that for the first time since the days of the 75-gallon fuel cell for IndyCars that was put to an end by the tragic events of the 1973 Indianapolis 500, IndyCars can, as a group, now go further on a tank of fuel than their NASCAR counterparts. The only two ways for NASCAR to get off the fuel mileage races without reversing it's fuel changes of the last two or three years are to either go back to the 22-gallon fuel cell (which I don't see happening), or use a grippier tire. After all, even the race at Martinsville was affected by fuel mileage, and that may be the last track you'd ever think of when it comes to having races affected by fuel mileage. 141. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For instance, the run that Paul Menard made to win the Brickyard 400, going the last 35 laps on a single tank of fuel, would be like someone going about 42 or 43 laps a few years ago. And I did mention in post #88 that Ricky Rudd went 46 laps to win that event in 1997, but there were a number of caution flags of that last run, which was not the case at Indy this time around. 142. dUDE gUY posted: 09.27.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the eighth time Tony Stewart has won two races in a row in his Cup career, but he has yet to win three in a row. 143. Cooper posted: 09.27.2011 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, the size of the fuel tank has nothing to do with a race being a fuel mileage race or not. It all depends where the final caution falls. For example: If we had an 22 gallon fuel cell and the cars got 4.6MPG, you could go 101.2 miles. If a caution comes out with 105 miles to go, you're going to have a fuel mileage race. If we had an 18 gallon fuel cell (current size) and the cars got 4.6MPG, you could go 82.8 miles. If a caution comes out with 85 miles to go, you're going to have a fuel mileage race. I'll repeat this, the size of the fuel cell is not a variable in a fuel mileage race. It all depends where the final caution and/or final pit stop is made. Does nobody remember 2003? The season in which we had like 15 fuel mileage races with the 22 gallon fuel cells...It's common sense. 144. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed Cooper, but the fact that they can't go as far on a tank of fuel, due to the different fuel that's being used means that the kind of things that happened to cars that were overdriven late in a fuel run, because they simply can't go that far anymore. believe me, with the way some of the drivers race today, the tires, especially the right front tire, would not last 90 miles, but it will last 70-75, which is all you need with the decreased mileage that the teams are getting, which is about 15-20% off from what they got as recenlty as two years ago. Remember that Mark Martin won a race at Michigan in 2009 because he was able to go about 100 miles on his last tank of gas. now, they can only go about 80, and that has resulted in a decrease in the number of incidents late in fuel runs, because the drivers don't generally have to worry about the last 10-15 miles of what was considered a full fuel run until two years ago, simply because they can't go that far anymore, unless they back off about 2 seconds per lap, like they did at Atlanta. They were able to go further on fuel at Atlanta simply because they couldn't run as fast, because the tires wouldn't allow it. Years ago, often times a car would blow a tire 80-85 miles into a fuel run because the tire had been worked too hard, but now there's no worry, because the cars can't go that far on a tank of fuel any more. For instance, there were many cars pitting for fuel at Pocono and Indy this year at 26-28 laps, which is just 65-70 miles. About four years ago, they ran five to seven laps longer on fuel at those tracks routinely until the fuel changes that NASCAR made. The lack of fuel mileage these teams are able to get is, in my mind, one of the contributing factors in the decrease in the number caution flags this year, simply because they can't run far enough for a potential tire problem, due to overtaxing the tire, to develop. 145. Mr X posted: 09.27.2011 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fuel runs in NASCAR races have gotten a lot shorter, thats definitely true however they are still more than long enough for the tires to begin to wear a lot more then they currently do. I really don't think that a racing series is really the place to be as green as possible either. NASCAR should've just left the fuel the way it was. And honestly I've been preaching that the tires are too hard, when in fact I partially think that Good Year has just found out how to build a tire with grip, consistancy, and it doesn't slow down. In the July race at New Hampshire Ryan Newman led the most laps, won the race, had one of the fastest cars, and still only changed left side tires once during the entire race, and these same tires were used to shatter the track record by multiple tenths of a second in qualifying. Good Year obviously wants to prove that they can build a damn good tire, however its killing the excitement factor in a lot of these races. Good Year should work a little harder towards providing the softest tire they can build without massive tire problems like at Indy in 2008. If a couple of tires get worn to the chords, or a tire blows, thats okay, but no more then that. These tires should be wearing to the point that major weaknesses in the chassis setup are exposed, meaning a car that aggressively abuses the right front might show a few chords by the end of the day, but thats it. Teams should actually be really concerned about tire wear when they set the car up. They should really worry about creating a setup that will handle, and not overload any portion of any tire. This would really expose how bad or how good these teams actually are at creating a setup. These current tires seem to be able to handle anything and because they dont slow down, the only thing effecting how fast each car can go is clean air. The fastest car on the track, is the one in the cleanest air, 90% of the time its the leader. When tires have to be budgeted the fastest car on the track is a different guy every 5-10 laps. Unless NASCAR's 2013 car makes absolutely zero downforce(unlikely), this clean air trend will continue. Which brings to this question I have. Why does NASCAR think that making changes to the tires, cars, tracks, rules, or anything else, basically putting all the teams back at the start makes it equal or more competitive? I'm pretty positive it does the opposite, because when NASCAR puts everything back to square one, Roush, Hendrick, RCR, Penske, and JGR, are going to find a ton of speed right away, leaving everyone else behind. Look at 2007, the year with both the old and new cars, HMS won 18 of 36 races. Look at 2008, the first full year with the current car, the 48, 18, and 99 won 7, 8, and 9 races respectively, three drivers won 24 of 36 races and only 12 drivers won a race, the fewest since the season became 36 races long. Not to mention when NASCAR changes the rules all the big teams do is go back to the drawing board, spend more money that the smaller teams do not have. If NASCAR left the rules alone for a number of years, the big teams will begin to max out the package and the little teams will begin to catch back up. If NASCAR could go more then a week without a rule change then the teams will spend less and smaller teams might just become a little more relavent. 2011 is the first year since 2006 to not feature any major rule changes, and with major ones coming in 2012, 2013, and probably more in the future, it could be a while. 146. Cooper posted: 09.27.2011 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 145. Mr X posted: 09.27.11 - 6:17 pm I agree with your last paragraph a lot. Change is good. Too much is bad. The more changes you make, more variables are exposed to the teams. The teams with the most resources will be able to find the variables much quicker and essentially dominate. This is what kills the sport. Too much change, too fast. Many people, want to claim that the decrease in popularity in NASCAR was due to the "chase" but in fact it wasn't. In the years 2003-2007, there was so much change that a lot fans lost touch with the sport. Those years led into the recession and everybody knows what that has done to our sport. I'm happy with where the sport is. And according to television ratings, people agree with me. Popularity is back on the rise because the sport has reached a point where there is consistency. Everybody knows the product. The reason NASCAR had a decrease in popularity was too much change at one time. Take a look at this...From 2003-2007 Garage Overhaul--Many A-List drivers were replaced with non-interesting drivers that no one heard of. Fans of long time drivers like Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, Ken Schrader, Ricky Rudd, and Terry Labonte were replaced with drivers like David Stremme, Scott Riggs, Casey Mears, and Brian Vickers. Car Overhaul--Total destruction of the "Stock Car". Bye bye to spoilers and front valences and hello to rear wings and splitters. Rule Overhaul--Cars were turned into Spec. cars, teams unable to do anything. Chevrolet's look like Fords which look like Toyota's Points Overhaul--NASCAR totally gives the point standings an overhaul. This was basically the standard point system for decades. Poof gone. Sponsor Overhaul--Goodbye Tobacco, Hello Cell-phones. The title sponsor of the sport since 1972 was replaced, by a company that some fans had no clue what they were. All these changes within FOUR years. I repeat FOUR years! How the hell did NASCAR expect to keep their fan base when the sport changed so quickly? It was impossible. And that's what brings me to my current point. NASCAR needs to stop with the changes and maintain with what they have. Give the fans some consistency. When a person watches a race in 2011, the product needs to be similar in 2014. You can't keep changing things and expect fans to keep watching. 147. Watto posted: 09.27.2011 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "the size of the fuel tank has nothing to do with a race being a fuel mileage race or not" The size of the fuel tank isn't the biggest factor, but it absolutely has an effect. Shorter runs = less laps for the final caution to fall within the final pit window. For races that are very green, 22 gal vs 18 can mean one or more less pit stops. It depends on the fuel mileage of that particular race, as well as the distance, but it absolutely makes a difference. 148. Cooper posted: 09.27.2011 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "147. Watto posted: 09.27.11 - 7:46 pm" We had the same amount of fuel mileage races in 2003. I don't think there is enough information to make conclusive evidence that fuel cell size is a factor. 149. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2011 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My point was that the more aggressive drivers would drive the car exceedingly hard, and the car would begin to have problems about 50 or 60 miles into a fuel run (say, about 75-90 laps on a short track), but the tire failure due to the excessively hard running wouldn't generally occur until about 80-90 miles into that fuel run. Well, with the reduction in the fuel mileage over the last couple of years, the cars would have to pit by then, so the tire blowout would never actually manifest itself as it used to. Certainly the better quality of tires (as far as durability is concerned) has something to do with this, but the shorter fuel runs also has some responsibility for this. Because the cars don't have to run as far on a set of tires, tire management is no longer a major factor, except on abrasive tracks, because they don't have to worry about those last 15-20 miles, which is when the failures actually occur, since they can no longer run that far on a tank of fuel. As a result, the cars can be run harder, with little-to-no risk of something bad happening. And because the cars can be run harder for longer, everyone can run faster for longer, thus the amonut of passing, even late in a fuel run, has been greatly reduced (Loudon has always been a terrible track for passing, anyway). I think if you had a case where the drivers had to run about 100 miles on a tank of fuel, like they used to, you would see better racing, because the drivers would have to manage their equipment, and those that couldn't, would pay the price, either by dropping back, or by incurring a high risk of tire problems due to how hard they're running. That is one reason why I believe drivers such as Jeff Gordon (until this year), Mark Martin, Jeff Burton, Kasey Kahne, and Tony Stewart (until the last two races), and even Jimmie Johnson, have really struggled. Those drivers aren't used to having to drive the car really hard throughout an entire fuel run, as they are known for saving their equipment, especially their tires, and not having that advantage at their disposal, due to the better tires and reduction in the fuel mileage, due to the change in the fuel that is being used for the races, has greatly affected their performance, as well as the actual racing itself. 150. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.27.2011 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm VERY surprised that some people are now calling Stewart the favorite for this championship. I just don't see it - This is a smoke and mirror show if there ever was one. During the first 26 races, that team had only three top 5's ALL SEASON!!!!! Now, both of his wins to kick off the Chase were a result of fuel milage. It's hard to see Stewart as a strong enough player in the races that comes down to pure speed. The #14 team certainly deserves credit for having the field covered in the fuel milage suit, but at the end of the day, it's still doubtful that will be trump." Same here. If they can pull off the championship, I'll admit I was wrong. But I just don't see the team strong enough to do that. Before the cha$e started, Tony struggled big time at some of his best tracks (Watkins Glen comes to mind). However, as long as one of my favorites, Brad K continues to benefit from these fuel races (so far he has finished 5 spots higher than he would have at Chicago and at least 2 spots higher than he would have at Loudon if fuel hadn't come into play), I just may have to go out and buy a hat and shirt supporting fuel mileage. Haha 151. Cooper posted: 09.27.2011 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "149. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.11 - 11:35 pm" Interesting analysis. I actually never thought about it that way. The smaller fuel cells in essence have reduced the amount of laps needed to be run on a set of tires. Therefore by the time the car has run out of fuel, the tires have not reached the point of severe wear. Hmmm, I can't believe I never thought about that. 152. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2011 - 3:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, that's the point I've been trying to make. Without having to manage their tires due to the shorter runs, the drivers can run all-out, knowing that they'll be able to change on the pit stops, which now come more frequently due to the decreased fuel mileage. This really plays into the hands of the real aggressive drivers, such as Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, and their type, while it is putting the more experienced drivers, such as Mark Martin, Jeff Burton, as well as those like Kasey Kahne, Jimmie Johnson, and until recently, Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart, because they can't use their knowledge of knowing how to save their tires, something that has worked in their favor until recently. After all, except for 2009, Mark Martin hasn't really done much for nearly a decade, Jimmie Johnson hasn't won a non-RP race for a year now, Kasey Kahne hasn't won since the Labor Day race at Atlanta in 2009, where you do have to save your tires, Jeff Burton hasn't won since the fall Charlotte race in 2008, and until this year, Jeff Gordon had one exactly one race (Texas in the spring of 2009) since the 2007 fall race at Charlotte, a streak similar to the one that Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had from the spring race in Atlanta in 1996 to the spring Talladega race in 1999, where he won only once during that period (the 1998 Daytona 500). I believe that a lot of the struggles a lot of these drivers are having, and almost every one of them are finesse drivers, has to do with the shorter life of a fuel run. In short, what has happened is that the experienced drivers can no longer use much of that experience to their advantage. 153. Anonymous posted: 09.28.2011 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Dale Earnhardt Sr shouldn't be mentioned in this case from 1996 to 1998. Dale Earnhardt Sr. wasn't healthy from 2nd Talladega race to the end of 1999. Dale was leading in points at the time of the 2nd Talladega race. Dale Sr. suffered injuries from the 2nd Talladega race that were not fixed before the end of the 1999 season including his neck. Dale didn't have that surgery sooner because he was so stubborn. Dale also suffered injuries 2 or 3 crashes from 1996 to the end of 1999. Dale got hurt at Atlanta in 1999 besides Telladega in 1996 for sure. Dale got hurt again in 1997 or 1998 if I remembered right. Dale was a prime example of a driver that was easier to get hurt do to age. 154. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2011 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) True enough Anonymous (#153), but in his dry period from late-2007 through 2010, Jeff Gordon suffered through back problems, which, while not as severe as Earnhardt's numerous injuries, undoubtedly had a negagtive effect on Gordon's performance. But there's another similarity between Earhnardt's struggles from 1996-'99 and Gordon's from 2008-'10, and that was the major problem each had at the crew chief position during their respective periods. In fact, Richard Childress didn't even have a legitimate crew chief in 1996, as he actually had co-crew chiefs, netiher of whom were competent at that position, and that led to Earnhardt's struggles during the next few years, as much as Earnharst's injuries, because it got them considerably behind their competition, and they didn't really catch up until 2000. Then when Earnhardt was killed, RCR was not able to fully take advantage of that. And the inability of Steve Letarte, Gordon's crew chief during his leanest years, to give him good enough and fast enough cars to win is well documented. Letarte also had the problem with falling further behind the competition as the year progressed, something that Dale Earnhardt, Jr. now has to deal with, not to mention his passiveness when it comes to dealing with Chad Knaus. But as I mentioned, those are now Earnhardt, Jr.'s problems. Where as Gordon's current crew chief Alan Gustavson, while his ability to come up big in the pressure situations has not yet been proven, has provided Gordon with the best cars he's consistenly had in a decade, and the resuilt is that Gordon has apparently regained his old position, the top dog at Hendrick Motorsports. Whether or not that will change with Kasey Kahne coming aboard next year, as well as a probable resugence of Jimmie Johnson next year, remains to be seen. 155. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2011 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always compared Jeff's '08-'10 to Dale's '97-'99. Those were three years in each of their careers where injuries held them back as well as their teams falling behind the respective rules packages of the day. Of course Dale's injury years really started in the Summer of '96 with his bone crunching Dega wreck while he was right near the top of the standings. RCR had already fallen behind a bit (relative to them, they were always a bit behind on speed) as early as 1995 when HMS was clearly superior. Throw in the now infamous "5 and 5" rule that doomed any hope of exciting racing on almost every track. Dale never liked the feel of sliding around on the radial tires. By 2000 everything on him was fixed, and he enjoyed a great season where he finished 2nd to a guy that completed all but nine laps all season long and actually pressed him a bit over the summer. You also can't count out the factor that his son was now in Winston Cup Racing and doing really well, and he was totally rejuvenated. BTW, the wrecks that hurt Dale include the '96 Dega wreck, the '98 Dega wreck that burned him, 2 hard driver's side hits in 2 weeks during the 2 big May Charlotte races, then the '99 Atlanta wreck that broke off a piece of one of his neck bones that dug into his nerves. Jeff was noticeably uncomfortable after his vicious '08 Vegas wreck. He also had a hard time getting used to the COT. I know he won a lot of the early COT races in '07, but HMS was so far ahead of everyone when it first came out. Add those two factors with the crushing shadow that his shopmates on the 48 team, a team that was partially his creation, was casting on him, and it was simply a bad time for Jeff. Now he is feeling better, has a better feel for the COT, and is in a new shop where he gets to be a leader once again. Like Dale in 2000, we are now looking at Jeff and saying "Damn, this guy ain't done!". Of course the big difference is that Dale actually had TWO 3 year stretches of futility. The other was from '81-'83 when he played ride roulette after Osterlund bailed before landing with a fast but VERY unreliable Bud Moore team. That is a big reason why I have Dale as the best ever. Despite two 3 year periods that were basically write offs in his 22 seasons, he still won 7 championships, 76 races, was in the Top 10 in points for 20 of those 22 seasons (he finished 12th in both '82 and '92), won a race in 20 of those 22 seasons (finishing 7th and 5th respectively in those two winless seasons), and did all this despite never being in the sport's premiere team except '87 when he won 11 races and already had a 400 point lead by the beginning of Summer. He carried two teams from fringe contenders to champions. To go 22 consecutive seasons with either being a Top 10 driver or a winner is amazing. And yeah, those 7 championships and 7 additional Top 5 points finishes don't hurt either. 156. Smokefan05 posted: 09.28.2011 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well i've held my tongue long enough......... "Unless NASCAR's 2013 car makes absolutely zero downforce(unlikely), this clean air trend will continue." Clean air has ALWAYS been a factor, i don't understand why people are bring this up now. 1995 BY 400, clean air was a factor in that race, being that way since then. Remember in 1998 when NASCAR toke away downforce? Racing suffered because of it, so NASCAR gave downforce back. The only way this whole thing can work is IF NASCAR opens the rules up and lets the teams use more mechanical grip. And NASCAR has said "we aren't touching this new car, the auto manus are going to have to deal with it." And the "fans" want that, so don't come complaining about how NASCAR should do something when "fans" want auto manus. battle like they did int he 60's and 70's. So IF the new car sucks, then i'm already ready to give blame. "Garage Overhaul--Many A-List drivers were replaced with non-interesting drivers that no one heard of. Fans of long time drivers like Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, Ken Schrader, Ricky Rudd, and Terry Labonte were replaced with drivers like David Stremme, Scott Riggs, Casey Mears, and Brian Vickers." Drivers get old and retire, you need to find someelse to rout for or you might as well stop watching. "Car Overhaul--Total destruction of the "Stock Car". Bye bye to spoilers and front valences and hello to rear wings and splitters." Car haven't been "stock" since the 40's. Even off the show room floor, team added things to them, so "stock" went out the window as soon as something was added. "Rule Overhaul--Cars were turned into Spec. cars, teams unable to do anything. Chevrolet's look like Fords which look like Toyota's" "spec. car were coming weither you, me or anyone else had anything to say about it. It was in the works 10 years ago. "Points Overhaul--NASCAR totally gives the point standings an overhaul. This was basically the standard point system for decades. Poof gone." How many points systems did NASCAR use before the Lefert system? Alot. "Sponsor Overhaul--Goodbye Tobacco, Hello Cell-phones. The title sponsor of the sport since 1972 was replaced, by a company that some fans had no clue what they were." People had to have seen this coming, Winston wasn't going to be around forever. 157. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Please DSFF, your statement about RCR being the sport's premiere team only in 1987 might be one of the most ridiculous things you've said since I started posting here. In fact, not only did they have the sport's best driver at that time in Dale Earnhardt, but they may have had the sport's best crew chief at that time in Kirk Shelmerdine, and they had, by far, the best pit crew. In fact, it was so good, that they were called "The Flying Aces". They may not have had the best engines, but they more than made up for it in so many other areas. and, Earnhardt might have won the 1986 and '87 Daytona 500s if it weren't for poor fuel mileage (1986) and a sloppy final pit stop (1987), so their engines, while not on par with Ernie Elliott's, were plenty good enough. And by the way, I rate Jeff Gordon as a better driver because he is more versatile than Earnhardt, won at more tracks, and has compiled bigger numbers (championships excepted) in fewer starts (Earnhardt made 676 starts in his career, Gordon is currentyl, as of this writing, at 646 starts). In 30 fewer starts, which is nearly one full season, Gordon has compiled nine more wins (85-76) and more top 5 finishes (285-281) against stiffer competition. One major difference between the two is that once Earnhardt got a firm handle on a track, he rarely, if ever, lost it. That is proven by the fact that nearly half of his entire win total (37 of 76) came at just four tracks (ten wins at Talladega and nine each at Darlington, Bristol, and Atlanta). Add to that the six times he won at Richmond (on both layouts) and Martinsville, 49 of his 76 wins came at just six tracks, and he scored five wins at two other tracks, Charlotte and North Wilkesboro, making those eight tracks the only ones he won at least four times on. On the other hand, Gordon, much like Bobby Allison, can be called a "jack of all tracks and a master of none". His 85 wins are spread far more evenly, as he does not currently have more than seven at any one track, but with his wins at Pocono and Atlanta earlier this year, has won five or more times at eight different tracks, the same as Earnhardt, but has four wins at five other tracks, meaning has has won four or more times at 13 different tracks, which prove his versatility, since they've come at all kinds of tracks, speedways, short tracks, intermediates, oddball tracks (Indy, Pocono, and Darlington), and road courses. And if not for the Chase, he could very well be going for title #7 this year, which would, of course, match the totals of both Earnhardt and Richard Petty. These are the reasons why I listed Gordon ahead of Earnhardt about four or five years ago, and why he'll pass Allison with his next win to claim the #2 spot on my all-time NASCAR drivers' list. And if he gets to that magical 100-win plateau, he would, in my estimation, leapfrog King Richard himself to become, in my view, the #1 NASCAR driver of all-time, a thought unheard of not even a year or so ago. After all, I could never have seen the day that I might even think of putting someone ahead of King Richard as the top driver in NASCAR history, but a driver that can win 100 races in the top series with today's level of competition, and doing so on all types of tracks, that would be far more impressive than Richard Petty's 200 wins, and as a result, that driver would justifiably earn the #1 spot on my all-time drivers list. And with only 15 wins to go to reach 100, and his career seemingly rejuvenated this year, that driver would probably be Gordon. 158. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2011 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SmokeFan05, several months ago, about the time I started posting here, one of my first posts mentioned the 1995 Brickyard 400 as the birth of the aerodynamic push in NASCAR, as Rusty Wallace and Dale Jarrett both had faster cars than Dale Earnhardt, but they couldn't get closer than a couple of car-lenghts from the car they were trailing, due to the push their cars got, simply from trailing the car they were chasing so closely. 159. Cooper posted: 09.28.2011 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "156. Smokefan05 posted: 09.28.11 - 4:11 pm" All of this in 4 years! Yes it was inevitable but too much changed, too quickly. A race in 2003 had no resemblance to a race in 2007. That's why people stopped watching. Because the product was 200% different. No one would go to McDonald's if they changed the Big Mac everyday, now would they? I'm just saying, I wish NASCAR would keep what they have this year. I would be happy if the sport stayed where it is for the next 5 years. I'm content for the first time in a decade. And you can't deny, that constant change is bad for anything but it's especially bad for NASCAR. 160. Mr X posted: 09.28.2011 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "156. Smokefan05 posted: 09.28.11 - 4:11 pm Well i've held my tongue long enough......... "Unless NASCAR's 2013 car makes absolutely zero downforce(unlikely), this clean air trend will continue." Clean air has ALWAYS been a factor, i don't understand why people are bring this up now. 1995 BY 400, clean air was a factor in that race, being that way since then. Remember in 1998 when NASCAR toke away downforce? Racing suffered because of it, so NASCAR gave downforce back. The only way this whole thing can work is IF NASCAR opens the rules up and lets the teams use more mechanical grip. And NASCAR has said "we aren't touching this new car, the auto manus are going to have to deal with it." And the "fans" want that, so don't come complaining about how NASCAR should do something when "fans" want auto manus. battle like they did int he 60's and 70's. So IF the new car sucks, then i'm already ready to give blame." I'm well aware that clean air has been a factor for the last 16 years, however its never been a factor to the extent it is now. There is a reason why the words "aero push" are the two most dreaded words in auto racing, it kills the quality of the racing, you can run a guy down from 5 seconds back, but get within 5 car lengths and you just lose the nose. With the exceptions of 2011, and 2003 NASCAR has managed to keep a good balance between the effects of clean air and the effects of fresh tires. Most of the time some fresh rubber was worth just a little more then clean air. When a guy on 2 tires pulls away from guys on 4, something is wrong. Just recently the 1995 Coca-Cola 600 was uploaded to Youtube. Even with the Monte Carlo's in 1995 the Coke 600 was extremely competitive and compelling, great battles for position all night long. This year we've seen clean air prevail to a disgusting degree. At Dover the race ended with a 34 lap green flag run. JJ had the fastest car all day leading 207 laps. JJ took 4 tires on the final stop and restarted around 12th place, and all he could muster in 34 laps was 9th place. In years past with 34 laps to go I've been on the edge of my seat watching the race, wondering which strategy was going to pay off. The fastest car, on 4 new tires, in 34 laps, restarting 12th should be able to at least make it back to the top 4 or 5, and a win should be possible depending on how things shake out. Guys on 2 should have to extra hard just to hold their own against guys on 4 at most tracks, and I'm not saying that every track should be Atlanta, Rockingham, or Darlington either. At Michigan in June, even though the final run was only 5 laps, considering how wide the groove is, and how worn out MIS is, none of the Roush cars on FOUR TIRES could even get by Denny on TWO TIRES. At Michigan you would think it would be a done deal. The fix is easy, more tire wear and as cjs points out longer fuel runs. 161. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2011 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Please DSFF, your statement about RCR being the sport's premiere team only in 1987 might be one of the most ridiculous things you've said since I started posting here. In fact, not only did they have the sport's best driver at that time in Dale Earnhardt, but they may have had the sport's best crew chief at that time in Kirk Shelmerdine, and they had, by far, the best pit crew. In fact, it was so good, that they were called "The Flying Aces". They may not have had the best engines, but they more than made up for it in so many other areas." The last part is my key point. Engines. 2 things. First off, he never had a premier engine builder, and secondly Richard had his detuned a little bit to avoid too many failures which could doom them in points battles because he knew Dale could make up for it. The fact is how fast you can go depends first and foremost on horsepower. That is why Dale's record is so weak at Pocono and Michigan with just 2 wins at each. 2 were in 1987. My point is imagine Dale with Waddell Wilson or Randy Dorton engines. How many more wins could he have had? He had to make as much hay as possible at tracks where handling and driving meant more like Bristol, Darlington, Atlanta, Martinsville, Wilkesboro, etc. As far as the "more wins at more tracks" thing, you have to remember in Dale's prime there weren't nearly as many tracks. Tracks like Texas World and Ontario were off the schedule by his third year, and tracks like Texas, California, Vegas, and Homestead didn't come about until his injury years and RCR was way behind. And of course Chicago and Kansas didn't turn up until after his passing. Of the tracks that were on the schedule for his entire career, he won at least twice at all of them. To me, one thing that really hurts Jeff's legacy is Jimmie Johnson. Hired full time after Jeff's 4th championship season to basically be Jeff's wingman, he took the exact same equipment (and a far better crew chief) and passed Jeff's championship total in just 9 years, eventually causing Jeff to leave the shop of the two teams he had an ownership share in (basically The House That Gordon Built) and he was HAPPY about it. Considering RCR has only been an occasional Cup contender since losing Dale, and looking at Rod Osterlund's pathetic return to NASCAR in the late 80s with the Heinz 57 car, if Dale could have driven for the equivalent of HMS, he would have all modern records out of reach IMO. But I do have the utmost respect for Jeff and his accomplishments. 162. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2011 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Drivers get old and retire, you need to find someelse to rout for or you might as well stop watching." The problem is the current crop of drivers that replaced those guys are hard to root for. In the mid to late 80s when we saw the retiring of Cale, Pearson, Bobby (unfortunately forcibly), and The King (may as well have retired in the 80s), we had drivers like Dale, Rusty, Bill, and Mark there who could be related to easily. With that generation retiring, we basically have 15 Geoff Bodines replacing them. 163. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2011 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale was a prime example of a driver that was easier to get hurt do to age." I don't think it age that was the factor. Remember, he got hurt in his rookie season while still in his 20s, and also broke his leg in 1982 at 31. The problem was the lack of safety features. This is half NASCAR's fault for never being innovative with safety features, and half Dale's fault for escewing even the basic safety features that would occasionally hit NASCAR. Like safer seats and harnesses, which would ultimately lead to his passing, although with no neck restraint, that wreck probably would have killed him anyways. But he did himself very few favors over the years. 164. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, there were plenty of tracks in Dale's prime that he had problems at. Sure tracks like Texas, California (Auto Club Speedway), Las Vegas, and Homestead came in the late stages of his career, but when he was still at or near his peak, tracks like Phoenix, Sears Point, Watkins Glen, Loudon, and Indy were all added to the schedule, and he really didn't fare all that well at any of those tracks, with the possible exception of Phoenix. I know he won at Indy and Sonoma, both in 1995, but his overall record at both tracks, especially Sonoma, was not that good. His record at Loudon was horrible, and he never lit the world on fire at Watkins Glen, either, though he was a little unfortunate never to have won there. And he never won at Riverside, either. And by the way, you forgot to mention Benny Parsons and Buddy Baker were among that group of stars that retired in Earnhardt's heyday. As for your point about the lack of horsepower of the RCR engines, remember that he could have won the '86 and '87 Daytona 500s if not for problems on pit road, and he actually did win for Childress at Talladega, where horsepower is king, in 1984. Remember that some of his problems over the years at Pocono and Michigan may have had to do with horrific crashes he had at each of those tracks early in his career. The crash that sidelined him about two-thirds of the way through the 1979 season occurred at Michigan, and then there was that horrific crash he had with Tim Richmond at Pocono in 1982 when his brakes gave out entering turn one, nearly sending him over the boiler-plate wall they had then. As for your comment about if Dale would have driven for the equivalent of HMS, that he would have put the modern records out of reach. I hate to bring it to you, but back in the 80s and early-90s, Richard Childress Racing WAS the equivalent to what HMS is now. But there were more great drivers back in Earnhardt's heyday, not all of whom he was able to beat. He could never beat the likes of Petty, Allison, Yarborough, or Waltrip when they were at their best. It wasn't until 1985 that he was able to beat them on a consistent basis, and all of them were on the downside of their career, including Waltrip, who started on the downside of his career in 1985. Most of the group of drivers that Earnhardt was able to handle were drivers that, quite frankly, he intimidated, rather than outran. Guys like Elliott, Waltrip, Mark Martin, and most notably, Terry Labonte. The book on Earnhardt was, like most bullies, if you stood up to him, he didn't like it, which is why guys such as Rusty Wallace and Geoff Bodine did better against him that most of the others, because they weren't scared of him. As for Jeff Gordon not being able to compete with Jimmie Johnson in redent years, with Johnson winning five stragiht titles while gordon lingered in relative obscurity. That has to do with one man, and that is Chad Knaus. We all know that Gordon wasn't getting cars close to what Johnson was getting, especially during the Chase, and that was never going to change as long as they were in the same shop. So Gordon was moved to the other Hendrick shop, where he was teamed up with Alan Gustavson, and more impotantly, away from Chad Knaus, and we see was has transpired. Gordon has, for much of this year, been the standard-bearer at Hendrick Motorsports for much of the year. Quite frankly, I believe that's one reason for Jimmie Johnson's sudden frustration for a good chunk of the year, because he no longer seems to be the top guy at Hendrick, and it is eating him up, where as in years past, he knew he had Gordon in his back pocket, because he knew that Chad Knaus would make it so that Johnson got the good cars, and that Gordon would get Johnson's hand-me-downs. Now that that's no longer the case, and that Gordon is getting consistently good cars again, Johnson can't seem to keep up with him on a consistent basis, especially on the driver's tracks, and it is eating Johnson alive. And for the first time in a long time, Gordon actually has a team behind him that can win the championship. And by the way, you sais that NASCAR had never had good safety features back when Earnhardt was coming up. Well, that's not true either. None other than Jackie Stewart, who for many years was the #1 safety advocate in auto racing, said that he would rather be in a NASCAR car in an accident than in any other kind of racing car. He said that in a piece for the 1976 Daytona 500, which also aired during the 1978 Daytona 500. Sure it wasn't as safe as it is now, but NASCAR's cars were the standard for safety back then, and continue to be today. And we don't really know who the next crop of stars are that will replace Gordon, Stewart, Johnson, Kenseth, and the crowd that has been the dominant force the last decade. If I had to say, the group, undoubtedly led by Kyle Busch, also consists of Carl Edwards, and probably Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., Austin Dillon, and maybe James Buescher, Ty Dillon, and Cole Whitt down the line. I'd also include Trevor Bayne, but he may be out of the sport entirely within three years if he continues to have trouble finding sponsorship. After all, there's a real chance that he may become the first reigning Daytona 500 champion that will not be in the field the following year, simply because he can't find a ride. (I'd say that he might land a ride with RPM next year, if if a car (#9, perhaps?) opens up there, or if another is added, that David Ragan might end up there if Roush has to downsize his team due to sponsorship issues, with Stenhouse quite possibly winding up in the #21 car, though nothing has been made official, as far as that's concerned.) 165. RaceFanX posted: 09.28.2011 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joe Gibbs gave the prayer before this race started. Both of the Tommy Baldwin cars had modified throw back paint jobs for this race. Dave Blaney ran a Richie Evans one in the race while Steve Park attempted to qualify in a Len Boehler "Old Blue" one before sadly DNQing. Park's had previously been intended to run in the Coke Zero 400 before the team got a sponsorship deal for that race with driver Geoff Bodine and postponed it to here. Humorously Robby Gordon bumped a Speed Channel camera coming out of the garage for practice before this race. The camera man was going for one of those low-to-the-ground shots as Gordon pulled up to stop and Robby just nudged him by accident. 166. Eric posted: 09.28.2011 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Dale Earnhardt Sr. didn't get hurt at Michigan in 1979 at all. The only race Dale raced at Michigan in 1979, he finished 6th. David Pearson was in Dale's car for the 2nd Michigan race with a 4th place finish. Dale Earnhardt Sr. got hurt at Pocono and missed the next 4 races as result with David Pearson subbing for Dale at Talladega, Michigan, Bristol, and Darlington. My proof is http://www.racing-reference.info/drivdet/earnhda01/1979/W . 167. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.28.2011 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The problem is the current crop of drivers that replaced those guys are hard to root for. In the mid to late 80s when we saw the retiring of Cale, Pearson, Bobby (unfortunately forcibly), and The King (may as well have retired in the 80s), we had drivers like Dale, Rusty, Bill, and Mark there who could be related to easily. With that generation retiring, we basically have 15 Geoff Bodines replacing them." Not only that, but you also have unproven/mediocre drivers like David Stremme, JJ Yeley, Casey Mears and David Ragan getting chances to drive top rides simply because they were the best option a team could get. This rarely happened at all in the old days. 168. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2011 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCRandPenskeGuy, at least Casey Mears and David Ragan took advantage of their opportunities and each won a BIG race. (Ragan might not be finished yet and Mears got the shaft after Richard Childress couldn't get a sponsor for him after the 2009 season.) Mears won the 2007 Coca-Cola 600, appropriately enough on Memorial Day weekend (his uncle Rick won the Indianapolis 500 four times on that very weekend) and David Ragan won the Firecracker 400 this weekend, which is a race that Darrell Waltrip, among oters was NEVER able to win and it took Richard Petty 16 attempts to win, finally doing so for the first time in 1975. 169. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2011 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about that inacurracy then, Eric, and thanks for corretcing me. Now it's even more understandable why Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was always apprehensive about racing at Pocono. 170. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2011 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, it is indeed true that Ragan and Mears were able to win on NASCAR's top level, and they at least took the lead under green flag conditions in the races they won, unlike the wins Reutimann and Logano got in '09. But they still come off to me as drivers who belong in fringe rides rather than top rides like Roush, HMS and RCR. 171. Talon64 posted: 09.29.2011 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "cjs, it is indeed true that Ragan and Mears were able to win on NASCAR's top level, and they at least took the lead under green flag conditions in the races they won, unlike the wins Reutimann and Logano got in '09. But they still come off to me as drivers who belong in fringe rides rather than top rides like Roush, HMS and RCR." As well as Mears ran in the race, his Coke 600 win was still thanks to fuel strategy; Tony Stewart was leading with about 20 laps to go but had to pit due to fuel while Mears was 2nd. Thanks to the fuel strategy guys like JJ Yeley, Kyle Petty and Reed Sorenson (although they too were actually running pretty well) ended up 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Ragan's Daytona win was a legit RP win, no doubt. You have to figure if he sticks with Roush that he'll get a win at Richmond at some point too. But Reutimann more than made up for the '09 Coke 600 victory with his win at Chicagoland last year. And Logano... yeah. I'm still waiting for the long-overdue crew chief change for the #20 team. 172. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2011 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or driver change in the #20 car, Talon64, because Logano is definately not getting the job done. A mediocre first season was expected, but now this is three down years in a row for the #20 team, four if you include Tony Stewart's last season at Gibbs. One of the big problems at Gibbs, and it's manifesting itself again in the Chase this year, is the lack of leadership at Gibbs. Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch definately are not leaders, nor are their crew chiefs, and Greg Zipedelli, the #20's crew chief, while a leader there, doesn't seem to have the driver to make it work as Joey Logano is, like I've said about Trevor Bayne and Regan Smith, a very conservative driver, and thus not able to get as much out of the #20 car as there is to offer. That's why they went after Carl Edwards, though they deny it. Joey Logano is a good driver, he's just not aggressive enough on the track. We've heard rumors that Gibbs has been wishing to add a fourth team, but how can they think about doing so when their third team is just mediocre, something that is due mostly to the conservative nature of their driver. And one thing about that 2007 Coca-Cola 600 that Mears won is that the field was decimated by two big wrecks, which allowed upstarts like like Mears, J.J. Yeley (who finished second), and Reed Sorenson (who was fourth), along with old-timers like Kyle Petty (who won the 1987 race and finished third in the 2007 race) and Ricky Rudd (who should NEVER have come back in '07) to appear competitve for the final time in their careers. 173. Talon64 posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm been afraid to admit this for Logano's sake, but the similarities between Joey Logano and David Ragan's first 3 seasons in Cup are uncanny. Both had mediocre-decent rookie seasons, showing flashes of competitiveness here and there but ending up 20th-23rd in the standings (let's ignore Joey's combo fuel mileage/rain win). 2nd year showed a mark improvement as they started to run in the top 10 and even the top 5 much more frequently, finishing solidly in the top 20 in the standings with top 10's in nearly half there races and a half-dozen top 5's each. But then they regress in their 3rd year. Ragan's regression was much more severe, only 2 top 10's all year while at least Logano has 4 top 5's. Ragan ended up 27th in the standings, while Logano's 21st but still has a good chance of cracking the top 20. And both Logano and Ragan had veteran crew chiefs for their first 3 seasons; Greg Z. for Logano and Jimmy Fennig for Ragan. In Ragan's 4th year, he got a crew chief change as Donnie Wingo replaced Fennig. Improvement was marginal at best, as Ragan only had 3 top 10's and ended up 27th in the standings. We'll see how Logano does next year but I feel like he's been long overdue for a CC change. This says absolutely nothing about Greg's quality as a CC, just that the Logano/Greg combo hasn't gotten results. Greg's veteran leadership would be better spent on the 4th Gibbs team whenever JGR decides to expand. So hopefully the Ragan/Logano similarities will continue and Jason Ratcliffe gets promoted to #20 Cup CC. 174. Smokefan05 posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Might as well give a run down of the 12 Chasers going into Dover and were i think they will finish: #14: A former winner at Dover but no recently. Finish (10th-15th) Not going by stats but gut feeling. #29: never won at Dover but ran well in the Spring race. Finish (8th-16th) #2: based on going back to a track a second time, should run well. if its a fuel mileage race (5th-13th) if not (10th-20th) #99: Has a nickname by "concrete carl" so he should do well. Average finish i 8th *rounding up* Finish (5th-10th) #24: 4-time winner, been hit or miss since his last win. Finish (10th-17th) #18: Won at Dover before, can make a statement this weekend Finish (5th-10th) #17: Won Spring race, so i'd expect them to do well. Finish (5th-10th) #88: Won here in 2001 fall race, hasn't won since. Finish (15th-25th) He is going to stink it up eventually. But i hope i'm wrong. #22: Got in trouble at NHIS, and his attitude isn't helping matters. Finish (15th-20th) #48: Owns Dover. Has a chance to right the ship a remind everyone that they aren't out of it yet. Finish (1st-10th) Need to finish 10th or better here in order to have a shot a getting back in. If they don't right ship here, i really don't see them righting the ship at all. #39: 3 time winner, expect him to do better then his owner. Finish (5th-10th) #11: are out of it period, but can play spoiler but not here. Finish (10th-20th) Not ment to piss people off but figure i try something different from a posting standpoint. 175. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but when he was still at or near his peak, tracks like Phoenix, Sears Point, Watkins Glen, Loudon, and Indy were all added to the schedule" Watkins Glen he just never figured out. His best run there happened with a broken chestbone and collarbone. He also pretty much ended his title hopes there in 2000 by messing up on the last lap. But Phoenix and Sears Point he had really good finishes at. Yeah, he only won one time each there, but he was very respectable at each. Indy falls into the Pocono and Michigan category where horsepower is by far the number one factor. His one win record there is not a huge surprise. His mediocre record at Loudon doesn't make sense to me. He was pretty good on the smaller flat tracks like Martinsville, Richmond, and Phoenix. "As for your point about the lack of horsepower of the RCR engines, remember that he could have won the '86 and '87 Daytona 500s if not for problems on pit road, and he actually did win for Childress at Talladega, where horsepower is king, in 1984." The deal there is you can use the draft to stay sucked up to the faster cars. Once plates came about and the draft became everything, he began putting up ridiculous numbers. I want to state this: I'm not saying his engines were "bad" by any means, but he never quite had the juice a few others had at RCR or Osterlund. In his first championship year, BP's crew chief David Ifft even talked about that team's lack of power. When he first arrived, he didn't have the power that cars with engines by Waddell Wilson, Robert Yates, or Harold Elliott had. From the mid 80s to the mid 90s, he never had the power like cars with motors built by Ernie Elliott or Robert Yates. And from the mid 90s to the end of his career, he was out powered by cars with engines by Randy Dorton, Jack Roush, and Robert Yates (notice a pattern here?). I also would like to say that I agree 100% about Kirk Shelmerdine and the Flying Aces. Kirk is so underrated it is ridiculous. And that pit crew was solid. When they pushed out one of his old cars during his induction into the International Hall of Fame (the one in Talladega that isn't losing money by the minute, not to be confused with the one in Charlotte which may or may not be out of business by the time this gets posted) I got choked up. "but back in the 80s and early-90s, Richard Childress Racing WAS the equivalent to what HMS is now." I respectfully disagree. He joined them full time in '84 when they had just 2 and 1/3 seasons under their belt as something more than a shoestring independant team. They had their first 2 wins the previous year with Rudd, but still had major consistency issues. Also, every time Richard has tried to start an additional team, it has been a disaster initially. When he first tried a second team, the infamous 31 Lowe's car, he could not have gone about it in a worse way. It wasn't until 2003 that he had 2 cars that could compete consistently. When he began a 3rd team in 2002, it was an even bigger disaster. It took until 2007 that he could have 3 cars winning at once. And he is still trying to figure out the 4 car deal. With the 33 team probably shutting down, looks like he will be 0-2 on having 4 cars. Richard is clearly not the owner that Rick is. Jeff, on the other hand, stepped into HMS in '93. They already had a 7 win season from Tim Richmond (the same year Bodine won the Daytona 500 let's never mention this again I might get sick), a 6 win season from DW (with another Daytona 500), and a runner up from Rudd in The Winston Cup That Nobody Wanted (1991). During his 3 titles in 4 years run, the other title was won by HMS driver Terry Labonte (a farce, but still), and the 48 team, which was set up to be a "sister team" to the 24, simply blew him out of the water. Again, Jeff is one of the best ever, he was given a great opportunity and took advantage of it (compare his numbers to Kyle Busch's at the same age). But just about everything Rick has touched has turned to gold (except the 25 team after Tim had to leave it) while Richard has done little right with anything that didn't involve the words "Dale" and "Earnhardt". "Sorry about that inacurracy then, Eric, and thanks for corretcing me. Now it's even more understandable why Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was always apprehensive about racing at Pocono." He also had some bad wrecks at Michigan. After winning the 1987 Bristol Night Race, he mentioned his neck was still hurting from being wrecked by Michael Andretti in an IROC race at Michigan. He also hurt his throat there in a 1994 crash in the race on the weekend Ernie nearly got killed. But yeah, Pocono was rough on him too. Of course it has been rough on everyone. Petty broke his neck there, Bobby Allison had his career and nearly his life ended there, Davey had a bone crunching wreck there that, in reality, cost him the '92 Winston Cup. Even in the "safety era", we have seen Jeff Gordon and Elliott Sadler visibly shaken after some hard wrecks there. "And by the way, you forgot to mention Benny Parsons and Buddy Baker were among that group of stars that retired in Earnhardt's heyday." You are right. "I'm still waiting for the long-overdue crew chief change for the #20 team." Why haven't they swapped Zippy and Mike Ford? Denny and Mike hate each other more than I hate the phrase "Geoff Bodine: 1986 Daytona 500 winner". 176. Eric posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stay away from fox's prerace show next year and you will not like Hollywood Hotel next year either! Micheal Waltrip joins the Hollywood Hotel for the prerace show with Darrell Waltrip and Chris Myers. Jeff Hammond will be doing pit road and the garage. Micheal Waltrip also will be in the Hollywood Hotel during the race and after the race. The big question I have is, who will be out of a pit road job on Fox. Source: http://dalyplanet.blogspot.com/2011/09/hammond-out-waltrip-in-fox-hollywood.html 177. Talon64 posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why haven't they swapped Zippy and Mike Ford? Denny and Mike hate each other more than I hate the phrase "Geoff Bodine: 1986 Daytona 500 winner"." This is from Tuesday: ____________________________________________________________________________ "Hamlin discusses his crew chief: in part from a NASCAR Cam Video Teleconference Transcript: with #11-Denny Hamlin on September 27, 2011, an Interview with Denny Hamlin, currently 12th in the Sprint Cup Series Chase Points standings: Q. You obviously had a tough break at New Hampshire running out of fuel, a decision that comes in part from the guy on top of the pit box. I was just wondering how you would characterize your relationship with Mike Ford right now and how it's handled this year of ups and downs, and also, what's the one thing you guys really need to improve on in the last eight races, the communication between each other, to be even more competitive and be up there contending for wins? DENNY HAMLIN: Well, we all know this is a performance business, and obviously you've got to be competitive and contend for race wins so everyone feels good about their job. I feel like Mike is the guy for me. I feel like he's done a great job. He won me eight races last year. Some of the things that we've had go wrong this year are crew chief related, some of them are not. Most of them are not. Some of them are driver related. It weighs on all of our shoulders equally, and I feel like he's kind of received a bit of a bad rap because of that. But I feel like he's the reason -- kind of the backbone of this race team, and obviously if you made a change, it would take a long time to get back to where I feel like we're capable of running at this point right now. I think at times during the season we've gotten off track between the two of us, and I feel like these last four or five weeks the communication has been better. I feel like we were heading in the right direction, we've just had some things go wrong these first couple Chase races that makes it look worse than it really is. Q. I was wondering if you could elaborate on your relationship with Mike Ford a little bit, and has there been times this year when you've questioned the direction of the team and thought maybe a change was needed? DENNY HAMLIN: You always have thoughts about what you need to do to improve, and like I said before, there's been weeks where I can put some of the responsibility on Mike, there's been some weeks that it ultimately goes on my shoulders, and there's some weeks where it's things back at the shop that need to be improved on. Until we have one specific thing that we need to work on and can identify as a problem, I can't see changing much. But I feel like we have a good group of guys. I can win a championship with Mike; I really and truly do believe that. But we've just got to get our ship righted. It seems like our communication at some point in the year got stale. I felt like we've turned that around this last month or so, and we had three good finishes going into the Chase, and of course we had flat tires and a loose wheel the first Chase race. That's stuff that Mike can't help. He can't help those problems that we have. Loudon, New Hampshire, fuel mileage. It's 50/50. It's one of those things where maybe I used up too much gas, maybe it was too risky of a call. But either way, it weighs on us equally when we don't run well. So I'm not going to completely throw him under the bus.(NASCAR Transcript)(9-28-2011) ________________________________________________________________________ Denny seems like he's saying the right things. I might be reading too much into this, but he always mentioned Mike first when it came to things that went wrong before himself or the team as a whole. But both questions were directly about Mike. He also admitted that he's been working with a sports psychologist, which suggests that the #11 team's biggest problem this year has been in between Denny's ears. Man, the 2nd To Jimmie Johnson curse has really gotten him good. If Zipadelli sticks with the #20 team next year but both they and the #11 continue to struggle, then a mid-season swap wouldn't be out of the question. 178. Mr X posted: 09.29.2011 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A great feature tonight on NASCAR Race Hub for the upcoming truck race in April at Rockingham, Randy Pemberton went to the Rock and talked to Andy Hillenburg aswell as numerous drivers. The media did something good for once. Rockingham is on the upswing, anything is possible, and I am stoked for April 2012. 179. Scott B posted: 09.29.2011 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure "I won't completely throw him under the bus" is a vote of confidence. If my boss said that in public, I'd be looking for other employent options. I guess throwing someone only PARTIALLY under the bus is Denny's idea of leadership, though. 180. Talon64 posted: 09.29.2011 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) okay I missed that part. So much for saying the right things. lol 181. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2011 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, since when is winning six titles (won back-to-back titles three times) and finishing second twice and third once in a ten-year stretch not an equivalent to what Hendrick Motorsports is now? From 1986-'95, Earnhardt, with RCR won six titles (1986-'87, '90-'91, '93-94), was second twice (1989, '95), and was third once (1988). In those ten years, RCR may have rivaled Junior Johnson (1976-'86) and Hendrick Motorsports (1995-today) as the most dominant modren-day teams in the history of the sport. Sure, every time Childress starts a new team (or restarts one, as was the case this year), it is an unmitigated disaster, as his organization takes a while to get things straightened out, unlike Hendrick or Roush, who can only dream of having a driver that can dominate the sport like Earnhardt, Waltrip, Gordon, or Johnson could, since he's never had one, and currently doesn't have one among the six currently on his payroll, though Carl Edwards and Ricky Stenhouse have the most potential to that end, but even they have problems consistenly staying up front due to their hard-charging nature, and Matt Kenseth, their best current driver, is not the type to be a dominant figure. Greg Biffle and David Ragan have definately proven that they can't be dominant figures in the sport's top series, and I don't think that Trevor Bayne, if he stays there past this year, which I'm starting to doubt very seriously, has it in him to be a dominant figure either, because like Kenseth, it's just not in his personality. And, by the way, DSFF, Geoff Bodine's 1986 Daytona 500 victory, as unpopular as it was among Earnhardt fans, as they would have rather seen him run out of gas and have Terry Labonte, who Earnhardt liked to push around, win it, seemed like an unimportant victory at the time, but has turned out to be one of the 7-10 most important victories in Daytona 500 history, for that was the day that Hendrick Motorsports officially joined the elite teams in the sport. 182. Talon64 posted: 09.29.2011 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It seems like how you judge Dale Earnhardt's place among the all time greats in NASCAR depends on how much credit you give him for the success he and RCR had. IMO, Earnhardt/RCR 1984-2000 was a guy you could argue as being the best NASCAR driver of all time with a single-car organization that could give him equipment that was good AND reliable enough that he could take over from there to get the job done. I'd have Earnhardt 3rd behind David Pearson and Bobby Allison (DSFF and cjs3872 have helped to turn around my opinion on where Allison lies; major success with multiple teams until he was 50 doesn't lie), then Richard Petty 4th (although probably 1st in terms of the driver who had the most overall impact in NASCAR). 183. Greg G posted: 09.29.2011 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well now we have a reason NOT to watch FOX's pre race braodcast. MIKEY. It's bad enough we have to listen to Darrell's old stories now we have to put up with Mr. I want to be sombody. Thank goodness for MRN and PRN. 184. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2011 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Little Al, do you think you are Kyle Busch? 185. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2011 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did FOX hire that waste of space for their broadcast? What can he possibly tell us? How to do everything to have a long career aside from actually learning how to be a driver that doesn't suck? How to start a team and quickly go $20 million in the hole? How to use rocket fuel? How to steal a sway bar? How to exploit a friend's death? 186. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, the difference is all of RCR's incredible success came with one guy. Without Dale, the best he has done is with Harvick, a best points finish of 3rd, and 18 wins over 11 seasons. Not bad, but Dale finished 1st or 2nd with RCR 9 times. Dale has over 2/3 of their wins over the past 29 seasons. If Richard were truly capable of creating an HMS type program, he would have done it again by now. They have never come close to what they had with Dale. Conversely, Jeff isn't even responsible for half of HMS' titles or wins. The organization factor can't be overlooked. And not to point out the obvious, but 7 is a bigger number than 4. 187. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2011 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the Al Unser, Jr. saga is one of the saddest in auto racing history. In the mid-90s, he was on his way to becoming his family's most successful driver, which, considering the records that his father Al, Sr. and uncle Bobby were able to amass, would have been no small feat. But his downfall began when he and teammate Emerson Fittipalidi failed to qualify for the 1995 Indianapolis 500, and not long after that, his career was in shambles. Then in 2000, when Unser joined the ranks of IRL drivers and returned to Indy in 2000, not to mention victory lane elsewhere, it appeared that Al Unser, Jr. had turned things back around, but it was not to be. Not to mention the strain in recent years between Al Unser, Sr. and brother Bobby, much of which concerns the Al, Jr. situation. We can just hope that Al Unser, Jr.'s problems don't wind up killing him, or someone else. As for your comments about Dale Earnhardt, Sr. where RCR is concerned, lets not forget that he first drove for Childress in 1981, but Childress advised him not to stay, so he joined Bud Moore's team, while Ricky Rudd went with Childress, and it was Rudd that actually laid the groundwork at RCR, as his consistent driving gave Childress enough quality equipment to warrant him to ask Earnhardt to return in 1984. When he did, he and Rudd switched rides. Earnhardt began to take off in 1985, and the rest is history, as he was the rock around which Childress' dynasty from the late 80s through the mid 90s was built, finishing in the top three in points every year but one from 1986-'95. But I strongly disagree with your comments about Gordon and Hendrick Motorsports. Before gordon got there, and even in his first year and a half there, Hendrick Motorsports was just another team that won occasionally. In fact, in the first four years in the 1990s, they won just six times, and won multiple races in a season just once in that period, winning three times in 1991. Like he was with Childress, Ricky Rudd was the rock at HMS during this period, but he left to form his own team in 1994, and was replaced by Terry Labonte, who's best years seemed behind him. But as Earnhardt (and Kirk Shelmerdine) had done with Childress a decade earlier, Gordon (and Ray Evernham) carried Hendrick Motorsports for the next decade, winning 49 times by the time the '90s were complete, far more than any other driver, and claimed his fourth title in 2001 at age 30. Jimmie Johnson would never have gotten there, if Gordon hadn't built Hendrick Motorsports into what it has become today. And Gordon might very well have won the titles in 2004 and 2007, if the Chase, as well as Chad Knaus had not intervened. As I stated in a previous post, Gordon had been denied cars equal to Johnson because Chad Knaus never shared information, and Johnson ALWAYS got superior cars, even when they were both seriously contending for championships, which was the case in 2004, '07, and '09, with Gordon getting Johnson's hand-me-downs. In fact, I believe that if Johnson couldn't win, he and Knaus would have preferred that anyone except Gordon won. And frankly, I believe that Chad Knaus' influence, if not flat-out interference, was a major reason why Robbie Loomis left in 2005, because Gordon wasn't getting equal cars to Johnson. But now that he's away from Chad Knaus, and with Alan Gustavson, who is giving him equal cars to Johnson, at least, if not superior cars, we're seeing the results. Gordon has won three times, including one in a showdown with Johnson, while Johnson has not won a non-RP race for one full year, and barely won that one, and I don't think that's an accident. And the friction between Knaus and Johnson we've been seeing this year may, in fact, be frustration that they no longer appear to HMS' #1 team any more, and that they can't do anything about it, since Gordon and Gustavson is outside their potential influence. 188. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2011 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's kind of hard for me to get a gauge on rating Earnhardt compared to Jeff Gordon. Both of them started racing in different eras (Dale during an era where rookies had to prove themselves before a good team noticed them, while Jeff was offered the opportunity of a lifetime and took full advantage of it, which sort of led to hot young guns in lower series like Kenny Irwin, Matt Kenseth and Dale Jr getting the good rides they started out in). I'd like to see what kind of numbers Earnhardt could have put up if he were with a dynasty like HMS. RCR to me, during Dale's prime was simply a great team with great cars while HMS doesn't settle for less than perfect cars which dominate the tour. But yes, Kirk Shelmerdine was one hell of a crew chief and I too believe he is underrated. To me, there's a lot of factors that can't be overlooked when comparing the two. But they have had similar arcs, such as the injury years (second half of '96, '97-'99 for Dale and '08-'10 for Jeff) and the comeback year where they show everyone that they still have what made them legends in them and that they are still very much the same force to be reckoned with ('00 for Dale, '11 for Jeff). 189. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2011 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FOX hires Mikey for the Hollywood Hotel? I'm definitely staying away from the pre race broadcasts next year. I don't want to puke every Sunday. I almost wish he didn't retire now because we're seeing more of him on TV than ever. 190. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.30.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will be shocked if Mike Ford is still crew chief for Denny Hamlin in 2012. They have had success, but that relationship has ran its course. 191. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.30.2011 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if Mike Ford would be the guy that will help Logano take that next step, IF of course he were to take over crew chiefing duties at the #20 team. He was Bill Elliott's crew chief on the #9 Evernham team during his career resurgence when he won Homestead towards the end of '01, Pocono and Indy in the summer of '02 (flat tracks were definitely their forte, rememeber that Homestead still had flat banking back then), and the win at The Rock in '03. And they came up a flat tire on the last lap short of another Homestead win (the first race with progressive banking there). And he has been Denny's crew chief since '06 and they have had 17 wins together. Of course Joey still has to wait out this whole "Is Home Depot staying or leaving?" crisis. If they leave, I think his career is in trouble. He did have the hot streak in the first part of last year, but aside from that he has been JGR's version of David Ragan. I'd have added him to the list of drivers I mentioned earlier that are getting handed top rides, but I'll wait until this season is over to officially declare where Joey is headed. 192. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 09.30.2011 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Ford has proven he can lead a competitive team. I don't see him leaving JGR, so the only option is for him to take over the 20 team or serve in a different capacity with JGR. 193. Smokefan05 posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Gordon might very well have won the titles in 2004 and 2007, if the Chase, as well as Chad Knaus had not intervened. As I stated in a previous post, Gordon had been denied cars equal to Johnson because Chad Knaus never shared information, and Johnson ALWAYS got superior cars, even when they were both seriously contending for championships, which was the case in 2004, '07, and '09, with Gordon getting Johnson's hand-me-downs. In fact, I believe that if Johnson couldn't win, he and Knaus would have preferred that anyone except Gordon won. And frankly, I believe that Chad Knaus' influence, if not flat-out interference, was a major reason why Robbie Loomis left in 2005, because Gordon wasn't getting equal cars to Johnson. But now that he's away from Chad Knaus, and with Alan Gustavson, who is giving him equal cars to Johnson, at least, if not superior cars, we're seeing the results. Gordon has won three times, including one in a showdown with Johnson, while Johnson has not won a non-RP race for one full year, and barely won that one, and I don't think that's an accident. And the friction between Knaus and Johnson we've been seeing this year may, in fact, be frustration that they no longer appear to HMS' #1 team any more, and that they can't do anything about it, since Gordon and Gustavson is outside their potential influence." Chad Knaus while is a smart CC, i've always found him to be jacka$$. But now that someone has brought this up, Chad&Jimmie have really never helped Jeff. Jeff brought Jimmie in to be his well "female dog" but instead it went the other way around and it burned Jeff big time. Jimmie got the best of the best from the first day he step into the HMS shop (including Chad). Jimmie got first rate equipment, pit crew and well a cheater for a CC that is smart. Jeff got 2nd rate stuff and it has effect him. I could endlessly go on about this but i'll get to the point of my post: The fall (and recent raise) of Jeff Gordon wasn't do it too age, losing talent or ability. Blame solely rests on Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus. cjs made some excellent points in his post i quoted and i 100,000,000,000,000,000% agree with part of his post that Chad Knaus NEVER share information with Jeff and Robbie. Since 2002, #'s, wins and Championships speak for me. 194. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.30.2011 - 5:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes SmokeFan05, you are seeing the darkness in the light. Thank you,cjs3872. In your absence I got ripped for the same thing (albeit from a semi-paranoid JG fan pint of view). This requires an awesome memory: in 2007, how many times did Letarte take Chad's setup and stink in the race and have to fix it. Likewise, how many times did Chad take Letarte's setup, improve on it, and not report the results? Also, you both forgot that Mark was leading an still magically dropped off of the face of the earth. 195. Anonymous posted: 09.30.2011 - 5:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thoughts on the schedule? 196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 9:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The schedule only has a few changes. I am glad Fall Dega got moved up. I like them getting the cha$e crapshoot over quicker. But it is more of the same. The Labor Day date doesn't say "Darlington Raceway" next to it. Atlanta, the best track on the schedule only has one date. The aforementioned Darlington has only one date. Meanwhile Kansas has two as does Texas. Cali and Kentucky have one which is one too many. Ugh. 197. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, fellow posters, FOX's hiring of Michael Waltrip for their pre-race shows in 2012 again shows me that FOX has no idea how to put a good NASCAR product on the air, or could care less. If you thought the DW-Hammond show was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. And that doesn't include the terrible way tey start EVERY one of their races. And by the way, RCRandPenskeGuy, when Dale Earnhardt got his first full-time Cup ride in 1979, it was with a team that was a contender. Rod Osterlund's team was originally Roger Penske's first NASCAR effort, which ran AMC Matadors from 1972-'75 with drivers such as Mark Donohue, Dave Marcis, Gary Bettenhausen, and Bobby Allison, and switched to Mercurys, as well as the #2 for 1976. Penske then released Bobby Allison after 1976 and hired Dave Marcis to driver the car. When Pesnke decided to sell the team in 1977, a lot of the cars and parts went to George Elliott for his son Bill, while the team itself was sold to Rod Osterlund, who wanted to run GM cars. The driver (Marcis) and the #2 went with the sale of the team for 1978. Osterlund actually ran as many as three cars for some races late in 1978 with Marcis in the #2, Neil Bonnett in the #5 when Jim Stacy ran into trouble and temporarily sold his team to Osterlund, and Rod ran a third car for Earnhardt in a couple of late-season races. At season's end, Osterlund was so impressed with Earnhardt that he let Marcis go at the end of the season, Stacy was able to get his team back for 1979 (he closed up shop when Neil Bonnett signed with the Wood Brothers after the debacle late in the spring race at Darlington in 1979), and Earnhardt was signed to run the 1979 season in Osterlund's #2 car, and the rest, as they say, is history. 198. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Before gordon got there, and even in his first year and a half there, Hendrick Motorsports was just another team that won occasionally. In fact, in the first four years in the 1990s, they won just six times, and won multiple races in a season just once in that period, winning three times in 1991." The problem from '90 thru '94 was the Lumina. HMS never figured that car out. So while they were just another team over that span, they had been elite for the most part for the rest of their history. As a start up team in '84 with mechanical wizard Harry Hyde and talented driver Geoff Bodine (yeah I said it) they won 3 times. '85 was bad, they went winless, but that was a bad year for the GM cars as the Fords, most notably that red #9 TBird, kicked the living shit out of the field. The GM team with the most wins that year? Earnhardt with 4 wins on half mile tracks. Plus the chemistry was off as Hyde would, as just about everyone else who came across him did, grow to loathe Bodine. But '86 through '89 were simply incredible. Despite adding a second team (and enduring many what the hell are you doing taunts), they won 9 times. 7 with the legendary Hyde/Richmond combo (with wins on short tracks, superspeedways, road courses, 1.3 mile egg shaped thacks, and 2.5 lopsided triangular tracks) and Bodine adding another 2 wins including a certain February race at a certain Florida track as his rival ran out of gas (editorial moment: F**K!!!!). 1987 was an odd year. You had Tim out with "double pnemonia" then coming back and winning his first two races then fading badly while an over the hill Benny Parsons subbed, winning a qualifying race. Bodine went winless, and new driver with new team Darrell Waltrip did alright, but were disappointing by their standards set by him and Waddell who never clicked. 1988 saw Bodine win again (sigh), new guy Schrader get his first win in a solid year in the #25, and Darrell reunited with his puppet Hammond, and they improved. DW would win six races in '89, Schrader won again, and Bodine got a win in the Fall race at North Wilkesboro (editorial moment: F**************K! >=[ >=[ >=[ >=[). They did pretty good at first with the new Lumina as Ford struggled initially with their redesigned TBird in '89. Then came the aforementioned '90-'94 swoon. But once they got the new Monte Carlo in '95, they were off to the history books (jeez, did I really just say that?). Yes, Gordon led the way. He did lift HMS' profile to champions. But then Terry Labonte did the same thing. And of course JJ, no matter how it happened, has simply outperformed Gordon every year he has been there except this year (I'm calling JJ's rookie year better even though he was one spot behind Jeff in the final points). Rick has always been an innovator. He was the first to use the modern system of multi car teams. Junior Johnson had two teams for a few years in the 80's, but they operated as different teams in different shops. 12 years later, when RC finally decided to join the multi car party, he initially did it exactly the way Junior did. The 3 and 31 were in different shops, and had different employess doing the same jobs on the different cars. It was a doomed effort from the beginning and had a huge hinderance on the end of Dale's career, even more than his injuries. Truth is, Richard has always been years behind the curve. "I'd like to see what kind of numbers Earnhardt could have put up if he were with a dynasty like HMS. RCR to me, during Dale's prime was simply a great team with great cars while HMS doesn't settle for less than perfect cars which dominate the tour." My thoughts exactly. Or just a team with a great engine builder. Another way of looking at it is this: Outside of the horsepower tracks Michigan and Pocono, 10 tracks were on the schedule twice a year for Dale's entire career. Atlanta, Bristol, Charlotte, Darlington, Daytona, Dover, Martinsville, Richmond, Rockingham, and Talladega. He won 62 times at these tracks, for an average of 6.2 times at each. For his 22 full time seasons, he ran a total of 436 races at these tracks, for a winning % of 14.2. First off, back to Pocono and Michigan. He won twice each there. If we give his average wins at the long time tracks, we'll round down to 6, to those two, that is 8 additional wins right there (4 additional at each). Just there, we have his win total bumped up to 84. Then throw in the starts he made at other horsepower tracks Ontario, Texas World, Cali, and Indy. 16 starts yielding just one win (the '95 Brickyard). Give him an additional win at this group of tracks, and suddenly he is at 85 wins, tied with Jeff, with 3 more championships. And we can't forget Riverside. Although a road course, it had a lot of long straightaways. That backstretch was over a mile long. The straight at the far end of the course that allowed them to bypass Riverside's carosel leading into the boot was deceptively long. Imagine if he had some extra horsepower there. Considering Dale had the 4th most Top 5s in the history of Riverside, 13 in just 20 starts (the three ahead of him, Petty had 15 in 45 starts, underrated road racer BP had 15 in 32 starts, and Bobby had 19 in 43 starts), I am going to arbitrarily give him 3 wins there with better motors (he had 3 runner ups there). Now we have 88 wins. But wait, there is more. Like Jeff, he had 3 write off years due to injuries. Unlike Jeff, he had 3 other years where he couldn't get settled into a ride after Osterlund bailed and he got stuck at Bud Moore (good call Richard) whose Ford engines were held together by fishing line, chewing gum, Elmer's glue, and band aids. He started 91 races in those 3 years, winning just 3 for a Harvick-esque 3.3 winning%. For the rest of his full time career he started 576 races with 73 wins for a 12.7 winning%. For his career, he has an 11.2 winning%. Those 3 years pulled him down 1.5%. Might not sound like much, but if we give him the 12.7% in those 91 races from '81 to '83, he has 11 wins over that period instead of 3. That +8 puts him up to 96 wins when added to his previous win inflation. And that 12.7 winning% doesn't include the previous win inflation for Pocono and Michigan I mentioned, it only adds to it. I also didn't include his great record at North Wilkesboro and Nashville which were removed from the schedule during his career. That part seems fair since Jeff lost Rockingham (4 wins), one date at Darlington (7 wins), and one date at Atlanta (5 wins). Basically, give Dale an entire career in one ride and a relatively stable situation surrounding that ride for his entire career as well as top notch motors like Jeff has had, and he would be totally out of reach for modern records IMO. Just for the record, I am really enjoying this debate with you cjs. It is civil, no insulting or condescending remarks like some other like to do when debating (Bronco), and is really making me think. Debates like this are why I am here. Luckily we both agree Bobby Allison is in the Top 2 all time. 199. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, fellow posters, FOX's hiring of Michael Waltrip for their pre-race shows in 2012 again shows me that FOX has no idea how to put a good NASCAR product on the air, or could care less. If you thought the DW-Hammond show was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. And that doesn't include the terrible way tey start EVERY one of their races." Agreed. Honestly, can we just get rid of those stupid infield studios? The Hollywood Hotel has been a running joke for a while, and everytime AB says "now down to the ESPN Pit Studio" I cringe because I know Brad and Rusty are gonna make us NASCAR fans look like a bunch of dumb hillbillies. A far cry from the days on CBS when they would throw it down to broadcasting legend Chris Economaki (I'm sure I misspelled that, and I feel bad about it) for an informative recap of the current action while Ken and Ned would take a piss break. 200. 00andJoe posted: 09.30.2011 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dover entry update: #50/Bell withdrew. DSFF - I'd argue that California isn't a horrible track anymore. If run in the daytime in the heat, at least. And until they repave it... "while Jeff was offered the opportunity of a lifetime and took full advantage of it, which sort of led to hot young guns in lower series like Kenny Irwin, Matt Kenseth and Dale Jr getting the good rides they started out in" I'd argue that actually HURT more drivers than it helped. If you look at the drivers who were dragged up to cup in the great Search For The Next Jeff Gordon, how many panned out? Not many. (Irwin's story being an especially sad one, and not just because of how it ends.) They were rushed up to Cup without sufficent seasoning (heck, even Jeff ran a couple seasons of Busch) and one by one they wound up becoming "damaged goods" and discarded - Irwin and Casey Atwood come immediately to mind. Matt Kenseth and Tony Stewart were the Great Exceptions (not Junior, he was going to drive for daddy's team come Hades or Noah) along with, possibly, Ryan Newman (although he was a bit more carefully groomed than most of the rest...), but Stewart in a way made things worse still, because now they weren't just looking for The Next Jeff Gordon out of sprint cars, they were looking for The Next Tony Stewart from major-league open-wheel, and thus the careers of Scott Pruett, Dario Franchitti and Jacques Villeneuve went down the toilet. 201. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or, DSFF, when Chris Schenkel, Dave Diles, or Jim McKay handled those duties for ABC at Indy in the 1970s and 80s. And I like the debates I'm in to be civil, as you noted, and the comments, even critical ones, to be fair and just. But one thing about Earnhardt where Pocono and Michigan are concerned, and I mentioned this in one post, and that is that I wonder just how much he put into those two tracks, since some of his worst crashes came there. After all, when any driver goes to a track where he's had a horrendous crash, he's obviously going to be timid, which is why Jeff Gordon's two wins at Pocono since his devastating 2006 crash there, is amazing. After all, charlotte was always one of Earnhardt's favorite tracks, but after his crash in the 1995 All-Star Race (XI) with Darrell Waltrip, Earnhardt was rarely competitve there afterwards. And Darrell Waltrip's struggles at Daytona after his 1983 Daytona 500 crash are well-documented. And those tracks you called 1.3-mile egg-shaped (Darlington), 2.5-mile triangle (Pocono), and I'll throw in Indy, as well as Ontario Motor Speedway (2.5-mile rounded rectangle), are what I called in a previous post the "oddball" tracks, since they are one-of-a-kind. 202. Sean posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now they weren't just looking for The Next Jeff Gordon out of sprint cars, they were looking for The Next Tony Stewart from major-league open-wheel, and thus the careers of Scott Pruett, Dario Franchitti and Jacques Villeneuve went down the toilet." Scott Pruett - he was like the Ken Schrader of IndyCar. In his prime, it wasn't shocking if he won, and he usually finished consistent in points, but he didn't win a lot and he didn't lead a lot. Considering he was aging by 1999, he didn't have much of a future in CART. It was still a dumb move to go to Cup the following season. His true greatness is in sports cars and now that he is completely dominating the crap out of Grand-Am, he seems to have properly found his place AFTER leaving CART and Cup. If only Robby Gordon would learn and become a full-time desert truck driver. Dario Franchitti - I don't think he ever ACTUALLY wanted to race in Cup. I think in retrospect he made a brilliant move to position himself to join Ganassi's IndyCar team. Ganassi had signed Scott Dixon and Dan Wheldon through 2008 for IndyCar and neither he nor Penske at that point had any openings. Dario was getting tired of Danica and Marco's crap at Andretti Green Racing (now Andretti Autosport) and didn't want to play babysitter to those two very immature drivers (so they eventually had Tony Kanaan do it instead). When Franchitti left and was replaced by the completely forgettable ride-buyer Hideki Mutoh, he KNEW that AGR would no longer be a serious player. Furthermore, he knew that he was a far better road racer than Wheldon (and not much worse of an oval driver at this point). Hence, he would be able to win a shootout with Wheldon for Wheldon's seat at Ganassi after he failed in Cup. I get the feeling Dario was only driving in NASCAR temporarily waiting for a Ganassi IndyCar seat to open up, which he then used to win the next two titles (and man, I hope Will Power holds him off this year because Franchitti has been very annoying and obnoxious this year). Jacques Villeneuve - He has not been relevant anywhere since his 1997 Formula One title. One of the best drivers in the world from 1994 to 1997 for sure, but then he basically slipped into a coma. Deciding to go to NASCAR when he did ten years after he was relevant was kind of a hilarious joke. At least JPM had won as recently as 2005 in F1 before moving to Cup. Pruett and Franchitti are doing better now than they ever did in CART/IndyCar before going to Cup. Pruett is dominant in Grand-Am and Franchitti is dominant in IndyCar. Villeneuve was already long irrelevant when he went to Cup. JPM felt he had already done everything in CART and IRL despite a very short career (and it's hard to argue), and he has been an above average if not great Cup driver a la Martin Truex or something. Allmendinger despite minimal oval experience (because Champ Car was only racing on road courses by then) adapted quite nicely to become like the 2010s answer to Johnny Benson. It wouldn't surprise me if he did or didn't win, but he's at least respectable now. Carpentier's career, like Villeneuve's, was already over and it's not like he had tons of choices then. Scott Speed has been horrible in everything he has ever driven (he never even won in the F1 feeder series, and although his equipment was bad in F1, scoring 0 points is atrocious, and his replacement Sebastian Vettel managed to win in the car. Yes, Vettel is destroying the entire F1 field now, so maybe that's not a fair comparison, but still...) The only open wheel driver whose relevant open-wheel career was killed by a switch to NASCAR in my opinion was Sam Hornish. Either the drivers are still relevant (JPM or Allmendinger in Cup, although neither of them are great; Franchitti in IndyCar; Pruett in Grand-Am) or they were already long past relevant (Villeneuve, Carpentier) or they were never relevant in the first place (Speed, Danica). I think Hornish went to Cup because honestly he saw the writing on the wall for him having an IndyCar ride for Penske. IndyCar switched from being all-oval to half road course, and although Hornish was a great oval driver, he was pretty atrocious on road courses. Pretty much like Dan Wheldon although I'd say Wheldon was slightly better on both ovals and road courses. Penske probably would have been impatient with Hornish and fired him for Ryan Briscoe or Will Power anyway. Almost all ovals in IndyCar are extremely car-centric so even if Hornish is a better oval driver than Briscoe and Power (and he is), they're WAY better on road courses (especially Power) which means it wouldn't have made sense for Penske to keep Hornish much longer in IndyCar. Considering Wheldon a mere three years after being fired from Ganassi (now) was relegated to being an Indy-only driver (albeit amazingly winning the race), I think Hornish saw something similar happening to himself and tried to save his career by switching to Cup where he could race only on ovals all year. Unfortunately for him, he never really figured Cup out and now he's pretty much out of luck. (I'm amazed he wasn't even able to find an Indy ride like Wheldon and Rice and EVEN SCOTT SPEED did). So yeah, I think Hornish was the only open-wheel driver who actually messed up by going to Cup when he did. Franchitti's move was actually genius because signing with Ganassi allowed him to escape having Marco and Danica as teammates AND ensuring that he'd get stronger results on his IndyCar return considering how quickly AGR sunk to sewage after he left. 203. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting thought about Pocono and Michigan. My counter is to consider Dega. Despite his bone snapping wreck there in '96, and another bad wreck that burned him in '98, he still got 3 wins there in '99 and '00. Honestly, I don't think Dale thought much about getting hurt. If so, he wouldn't have been so far behind on his safety features. He never joined the group with safer seats and harnesses, hell he didn't start wearing gloves until 1990. And even after burning his face in the '98 Dega wreck, he never went to a full face helmet. 00andJoe, you are right about Cali improving with age. And I certainly agree that people looking for The Next Jeff Gordon has ruined careers. The fact is Jeff is a once in a generation guy and his road can't be replicated. Atwood is the poster child to this, but it looks like Logano is next. He may wind up being the most extreme example. 204. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott Speed actually DID win a Truck Series race at Dover, which is no easy track to get around. I agree that he's not that good, but he's never had a good opportunity, either. The Red Bull NASCAR team has been a joke since its inception, except for Brian Vickers' stirring run into the Chase in 2009, but with the way that team has struggled since then, I wonder if that run to the Chase didn't involve a little chicanery? They got rid of A.J. Allmendinger to hire Speed, and although Allmendinger is a little better than Speed is, I don't think he's a vast improvement. And while being at RPM doesn't help his case any, the fact is that Marcos Amborse has outperformed him, even on the ovals, like Dover and Las Vegas, among others (though the finishes don't always show it), although Ambrose's performance since he won at Watkins Glen, has gone striaght into the toilet, which makes some wonder how much he's committed to be in NASCAR, since he's accomplished his major goal of winning in NASCAR's top series. And if that's the case, and Ambrose no longer has the desire to compete, and winds up leaving, who winds up in the #9 car? My guess is David Ragan, especially if Roush's one-time flagship #6 team has to shut down due to lack of sponsorship, as Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. may end up in the #21 next year, which would be the right decision to give him an apprenticeship in Cup racing before potentially moving to full-time duty in Cup, though in what car would remain unknown. 205. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But DSFF, Talladega is a different situation, since the engies are restricted there. As a result, you don't always have to be so committed, as you would have to be at places like Pocono or Michigan. Remember that Bill Elliott was involved in Earnhardt's bad 1998 crash at Talladega, as well as a bad crash with Dale Jarrett at California soon after, and he was never a major factor at either track after that. (He hadn't been a factor at Talladega for years, and was never really that good at California, but fared even worse at both of those tracks after that.) Also remember that Dale Jarrett was in a bad crash at Pocono, I believe in 2003 or '04, in the same place that Earnhardt (1982) and Jeff Gordon (2006) had their horrific crashes, and was never the same driver after that. 206. Sean posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't really think the formula-style open-wheel-to-NASCAR boom of 2006-2008 was a search for the next Jeff Gordon or the next Tony Stewart. I think the real issue is that Nationwide and trucks had gotten so diluted over the previous five years that the open-wheel drivers who were usually famous through F1 or CART when those series had better ratings in the US than the do now simply were bigger names and more marketable than drivers going up th stock-car ladder. A.J. Allmendinger was probably more marketable and MAYBE more famous than Justin Allgaier (although by then Nationwide was getting higher ratings than Champ Car). Most of the open-wheel drivers, however, were veterans who were successful since the late '90s (JV, JPM, Franchitti...) and were racing in CART when the series was still popular, and yes, I do think all of them were more popular and hence easier to market than Nationwide drivers since few care about Nationwide anymore... The real attempts to clone Jeff Gordon were with the drivers from USAC sprint cars. Tony Stewart, Ryan Newman, and Kasey Kahne were successes. Mike Bliss I think was a good driver who never got a real shot (look at what he did in his one-offs for Gibbs in 2004). Jason Leffler and J.J. Yeley were just awful, despite being arguably better sprint car drivers than Gordon and almost as good as Stewart (Yeley was in fact the first to win all three USAC divisions in the same season after Stewart). Admittedly, I think the main reason Leffler and Yeley were in the series in the first place was because Tony Stewart wanted to show his support for giving fellow USAC sprint drivers (like he was) a chance. Without Stewart's role as principal driver at Gibbs, Leffler and Yeley would not have had rides there. Those guys and admittedly stock-car guys like Atwood and Logano were more attempts to find the next Jeff Gordon than JPM, Allmendinger, Franchitti, and Villeneuve were. Those guys were simply arguably more famous and more marketable than most of the Nationwide field because NASCAR killed the Nationwide Series by allowing Cup drivers to compete full-time. As for Earnhardt vs. Gordon, I find them pretty analogous. They both started with teams that were arguably second-tier and overachieved (arguably in both cases: Hendrick had a history of success in the '80s and Dave Marcis entered the 1978 season finale 2nd in points immediately before Earnhardt joined the team. Neither were driving garbage.) Both of them had rides far greater than any of their contemporaries as rookies (Davey Allison, who had an even better ride, was the only rookie in between to have anything comparable). Bud Moore was winning every season before Earnhardt joined the team, and there wasn't really a way of knowing they wouldn't mesh. Then Rudd won at Childress before Earnhardt joined the team in 1984 (I'd say Childress was even then about as strong as Hendrick was in 1994). Earnhardt and Gordon both elevated the teams in about the same ways, had a slump at around the same period in their careers due to injuries, etc... I tend to agree with cjs that Childress was as dominant then as Hendrick was in Gordon's prime. I think Gordon only won more races in his prime as all the other contenders were in decline (Earnhardt, Wallace, Elliott, Waltrip, Irvan, Rudd, Bodine, T. Labonte, etc..., etc...) and those who weren't in decline weren't all that great (Martin was, but was too conservative to win a title; I honestly think Jarrett, B. Labonte, and J. Burton were fairly mediocre for title contenders and had their win totals GREATLY inflated due to being in their prime in the same era when there was little competition. When Stewart, Jr., Kenseth, Harvick, Ku. Busch, Newman, Johnson, Biffle all entered in the same period, those guys were LOST.) That in my mind is the only argument for Earnhardt (or Johnson) over Gordon. Gordon had less competition in the late '90s than Earnhardt did in the late '80s/early '90s and Johnson does now. Other than that, I think Earnhardt and Gordon's careers are largely interchangeable. Earnhardt had FAR greater luck with titles than Gordon did. I don't think 7 vs. 4 is an appropriate way to judge when Gordon didn't have any of his main contenders (Richmond, Irvan, Davey Allison, Rusty in 1993) die or have serious injuries arguably affecting future title chases. I also would rather use wins than titles as a judge because titles can be so arbitrary. I would hardly say Bobby Labonte was better than Junior Johnson, Fireball Roberts, Mark Martin, Fred Lorenzen, Davey Allison, Ernie Irvan, Harry Gant, Ricky Rudd, Geoff Bodine (sorry DSFF), Kyle Busch, or Carl Edwards. In fact I would take all those guys over SEVERAL champions. Earnhardt tended to have good luck in his championship-caliber seasons (1990 - Martin blew it due to conservatism, 1993 - Rusty couldn't recover from his injury, 1994 - Irvan's crash) and Gordon had bad luck in several of his (1996 - lunacy, 2004 - Kurt Busch's magic tire, 2007 - Johnson's unreal consistency). Titles alone aren't enough. I mean Terry Labonte isn't better than Bobby Allison. I think it's basically a draw. Maybe a slight edge to Earnhardt because he had stronger competition in his prime, but I don't think he had much weaker equipment relative to the field. 207. Sean posted: 09.30.2011 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and as for the superspeedway claim, I think simply that everybody has some weak tracks. Judging Earnhardt's horsepower solely by Pocono and Michigan while ignoring his results at Atlanta, Daytona, and Talladega seems like judging Gordon's horsepower solely by Chicagoland, Kansas, and Homestead, as opposed to other places like Pocono and Indy where he has been dominant. 208. Sean posted: 09.30.2011 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he's never had a good opportunity, either." He scored 0 points for a team Sebastian Vettel was able to win with in F1. Yes, Vettel looks like he's a contender to win five titles in a row a la Schumacher or Johnson, but still... 209. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.30.2011 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd argue that actually HURT more drivers than it helped. If you look at the drivers who were dragged up to cup in the great Search For The Next Jeff Gordon, how many panned out? Not many." The drivers who were dubbed the "next Jeff Gordon" only fell on their face because they were obviously rushed in too early (Irwin, Atwood, Logano) and needed more seasoning in the Busch/Nationwide or Truck Series before moving to Cup. There's a bigger list of drivers who have succeeded that were given similar opportunities, but not necessarily dubbed the "next Jeff Gordon" and they weren't rushed like the latter three (Kenseth, Dale Jr from '00 to '04, Johnson, Newman has had an OK career, McMurray has had an OK career, Kahne has had an OK career, Edwards, Kyle Busch, Hamlin). "(not Junior, he was going to drive for daddy's team come Hades or Noah)" Good point, DEI was just on the verge of starting a second team and everyone knew who the driver was going to be. 210. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.30.2011 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart in a way made things worse still, because now they weren't just looking for The Next Jeff Gordon out of sprint cars, they were looking for The Next Tony Stewart from major-league open-wheel, and thus the careers of Scott Pruett, Dario Franchitti and Jacques Villeneuve went down the toilet." Those guys didn't have the greatest opportunity, nor do I think they were properly transitioned either. I do think Pruett could have become a better stock car driver with time, though. The only other open-wheelers who have really lasted in Cup since Tony have been JPM and Allmendinger, and they have not had that great of a career, although I like AJ and am pulling for him to get a win. 211. Mr X posted: 09.30.2011 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am also enjoying reading the debate between cjs and DSFF, over Jeff Gordon vs Dale Earnhardt. My personal opinion on the matter points to the fact that Rick Hendrick has mastered how to be successful in this sport for longer then Richard Childress has. Rick has definitely thrown more money into the situation, however Rick over the years has paired up the best people in the business consistantly, not just from a skill aspect, but also for the sake of chemistry. Danny Lawrence is an excellent engine builder/tuner, and has been with RCR since the mid 1980's. I would still say even today the ECR motors are still the strongest in the sport overall. Other teams had advantages in the past but not huge advantages, some of it I'm sure could be traced to aero aswell. Even with the new fastback styled rear windshields for 1986 I still have a hard time believing that a Monte Carlo cuts through the air like a certain #9 Thunderbird. A similar situation to what Dodge had when they redesigned the Charger in 1968, the recessed grille acted as parachute, thus they came out with the Charger 500 for 1969. However once restrictor plates came along, it wasn't all drafting, you have to have some engine to be able to lead as many as Dale did on the RP tracks, especially in the early 1990's. I would say by the early 90's the RCR motors could definitely make some noise at any track. I would say that Kirk and Dale did virtually just as good a job of turning RCR into a dynasty as Ray and Jeff did for HMS. However Rick was able to maintain his dynasty. RC's dynasty revolved only around Dale. RC's next best driver after Earnhardt is Harvick, and since Dale's death RCR has just been a giant game of musical chairs. There's no doubt that Dale would've won more races had he lived, had he been with a slightly better team, and RCR, DEI, and Harvick would've won countless more races had Dale been there to be a role model. I say between 86-95 RCR is 90-95% as good as what HMS has been since 1995. Rick paired Jeff with Ray, Jimmie with Chad, Tim with Harry, Geoffrey and Harry, Terry and Gary, and continued the magic between DW and Jeff. HMS is what it is today because Rick found these combos over and over. RC found it just once, however Dale and Andy was good too. Dale could've done more but I don't think he would've put all the records out of reach. 90 plus wins, 310-350 t5's, 480-520 t10's. The 2012 schedule is just another chapter in this godawful story being told by Bruton Smith and Brian France, who both should be locked in the storage closet where they can't make any stupid decisions for a while, to think about what they've ruined. Its been sliding downhill since 1997, NASCAR lets Bruton have whatever he wants, and he wants really stupid things. IMO if NASCAR is going to give you a date on the Cup schedule, you should build something different, something we dont already have. Well we've had Charlotte since 1960, its never changed, and its been good, but in 1997 Bruton took two dates away from a small unique short track in NC that had produced great racing action since 1949 and replaced it with the new Charlotte Motor Speedway in Fort Worth, Texas and a slightly flatter Michigan International Speedway in Fontana, California. Since then Fontana has aged enough to produce better racing then Texas has however I still prefer North Wilkesboro. Meanwhile in Georgia the always great Atlanta Motor Speedway is being virtually rebuilt, and what do they do, they build another quad-oval. NASCAR went from having one 1.5mile quad-oval track, and two races a year on said tracks, to having three 1.5mile quad-ovals and 5 races a year on said tracks, all in a ten month period. Obviously Atlanta still produces world class auto racing, however most of the character is gone. Oh and that flat, boring, one mile oval in New England, we now go there twice a year. In 1998 Las Vegas was added, it was different at least however like all new 1.5 milers which is what every new track since 1997 has been the initial races are boring, single file, snooze-fests for races. However in 2001 they added two, count 'em, two new Las Vegas Motor Speedways, one in Kansas City, Kansas and the other in Joliet, Illinois, and big surprise they weren't very good races, single file demolition derby's. They added two more of a boring racetrack we already didn't like in the same year. In 1999 NASCAR goes to yet another 1.5 mile flat track in South Florida this time, and what a thriller that race was, and in 2002 while still flat, it replaced the fantastic Atlanta Motor Speedway as the season finale. They replaced 500 miles in Atlanta, NASCAR's best intermediate, with a 400 mile flat track race. Simply Brilliant <----Note: Sarcasm. Luckily Homestead has had some surgery since then and now it is a great track, similar to the old 1.522 mile Atlanta. Homestead now should be a 500 mile race and is a good track to hold the finale however I still prefer Atlanta. In 2004 a 53 year tradition was ended for no reason, and another great racetrack, Rockingham loses a date so that a second date at an undeveloped track can be put in place of the race that happened on Labour Day weekend for 53 years. And this thing called the Chase is started that ensures the first 26 races have little effect on the championship. In 2005 another unique, trickly little high banked 1.017 mile track is wiped away so that we can visit an undeveloped 1.5 mile quad-oval for a sixth time during the year, and the oldest paved track loses a 400 mile race to one out in the desert, Phoenix isn't bad but it's not Darlington. In 2006 Las Vegas was just starting to age, and poof, its ruined, like many others around this time. In 2011 we go back to racing just once a year at Fontana and the greatest track Atlanta loses a date, just so we can add a date to Las Vegas in Kansas, and go to Las Vegas in Kentucky. I would be really interested in seeing what the age demographic is for the newer tracks on the schedule. I would bet the average age of the spectators in Darlington is much older then the average age of people at the track in Kentucky. Why, because NASCAR these days is failing miserably in an attempt pull in younger fans, I'm only 18 and I'm disgusted with what they are doing, sweeping the traditions under the rug for some fake shiny garbage. NASCAR races from 10 or more years ago are the most exciting ones. 212. 00andJoe posted: 09.30.2011 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #202: Fair points, although I stand by Stewart making things worse for "the next Jeff Gordons" because he "proved" they were out there (And also "proved" you didn't need much seasoning...) "in 1997 Bruton took two dates away from a small unique short track in NC that had produced great racing action since 1949 and replaced it with the new Charlotte Motor Speedway in Fort Worth, Texas and a slightly flatter Michigan International Speedway in Fontana, California." To be fair, Fontana was Roger Penske's track, not Bruton's. Of course Penske was hand-in-glove with ISC (and wound up selling his tracks to them...) 213. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " Judging Earnhardt's horsepower solely by Pocono and Michigan while ignoring his results at Atlanta, Daytona, and Talladega" Atlanta is 2/3 corners, so handling is more important, and at Daytona and Dega you can use the draft to overcome horsepower deficits which explains some of the one time winners there. Again, I'm not saying he had bad motors, he just never had those top of the line motors that show up at the big flat tracks like Pocono, Michigan, Indy, and Cali. And that is just one of my 3 part argument as to why Jeff has won more than Dale did. The other two involve Jeff having a better owner who has kept his company on the cutting edge, and not having a period of ride roulette. 214. Talon64 posted: 09.30.2011 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I will be shocked if Mike Ford is still crew chief for Denny Hamlin in 2012. They have had success, but that relationship has ran its course." Is there a JGR 8 Wins curse? Kyle won 8 races in 2008, then major communication issues ended up with Dave Rogers replacing Steve Addington before 2009 was over. Now you've got Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford going through the same thing except they're running even worse. The only reason that there won't be a change before the year's out is because Denny and Mike have had a longer history together than Kyle and Steve did (1 and 3/4's seasons). 215. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean (#206), I'm now going to respond to things you mentioned. First, you mentioned that the open-wheel to NASCAR train was driven by the fact that the Nationwide and Truck Series was diluted of talent. Well guess wht. For the most part, it STILL IS. Except for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. and Austin Dillon, there's no other young driver in either of those two series that could run anywhere near the front in Cup right now. Justin Allgaier is too mistake-prone, Trevor Bayne is, for the most part, too conservative, as well as seemingly being perpetually looking for sponsors, despite winning the biggest race in NASCAR, the Daytona 500, and Cole Whitt isn't experienced enough yet. Secondly, you are mostly correct in your statements about some of older drivers and driver-owner combinations, but you are dead wrong about Earnhardt and Moore not meshing. They did mesh, but the problem there was that Moore's equipment at that time was as sturdy as dry brush, so there were many failures (Earnhardt failed to finish 18 races in 1982). But Earnhardt had such high respect for Moore, that when he started his third team in 2001, that when it came time to pick a car number, he went with Moore's #15, not realizing that it would win the first time out of the box. I also disagree that Gordon was ultra-successful because the stars of the Earnhardt-era were in decline. Well, that's just not true. Waltrip definately was in decline, and Earnhardt was heading there, but the others were not. Rusty Wallace was still capable of putting up big numbers, but his team was unreliable. Bill Elliott was going through a long winless drought, due to the fact he was an owner-driver. If Elliott had been driving for someone else, he would have been winning races, which he did when he got hooked up with Ray Evernham. Ricky Rudd was as competitve as he ever was, continuing to win his annual race through 1998, and was competitve, even with the Wood Brothers in 2005. And Terry Labonte was rock solid, as always, even nabbing a title in 1996. Mark Martin was a fast driver who liked to race clean, and wouldn't take the chances, which may be why he never won the Daytona 500. Bobby Labonte was like his brother Terry, and Dale Jarrett was as tough as they got, especially with big money at stake. Three Daytona 500 wins and the only in-year sweep of the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, and Brickyard 400 are proof of that. and while Mark Martin never won a title, he finished second a total of five times, while Jarrett and Bobby Labonte won titles in 1999 and 2000. And Jeff Burton was from the Mark Martin mold, but he also won some BIG races, including two Coca-Cola 600s in three years. On the other hand, I could not agree with you more in saying that championships should not be the most important thing in grading a driver's career. The prime example here is that Terry Labonte won one-quarter of the number of races that Bobby Allison won (22 vs. 85), yet won one more championship. Rather, it should be just one of the factors involved in measuring a driver's career. And that's even more true now, since the championship itself has been greatly devalued due to the Chase. A driver and team no longer have to be good on all types of tracks to win a title, which is why I rank the three championships of Yarborough and Waltrip, as well as Gordon's four titles, as more important as Jimmie Johnson's five. And for your comment about Scott Speed. I acknowledged that he wasn't that good, but when he drove the Toro Rosso car, it was essentially a start-up team then, so it wasn't going to be successful, no matter who drove it. But that doesn't take away from Vettel's accomplishments, though all the leading F1 teams are major cheater, especially where traction control is concerned. And yes, I believe that's how Brian Vickers made the Chase in 2009 with Red Bull Racing, because I believe they were probably using traction control during their run to the Chase. They were able to get away with it, as well as the other teams I have suspected of doing so, because NASCAR doesn't have anyone smart enough to detect it. In fact, doesn't anyone else here think that the rise of Chad Knaus as an elite crew chief, and others like him, more than coincided with the resignation of Gary Nelson to the COT development program. And by the way, Gordon won all of his championships with Nelson as the top cop, but since he left, Gordon hasn't been nearly as successful. That may lend some to believe that others, including Knaus, beat Gordon, Martin, and their contemporaries by cheating, not that there wasn't cheating going on in the #24 camp, because there was. Remember the 1995 All-Star Race, where Gordon, more than likely, swept all three segments with the unapproved (I believe illegal) hubs they were caught with a week later, as well as the celebrated "tiregate" incident at Loudon in 1998, which led to a confrontation between Ray Evernham and Jack Roush, concerning whether or not an illegal tire softener was used, which I don't believe was the case. I frankly believe they may have been using traction control the entire second half of the year, and were allowed to do so by NASCAR, because of the insanely big aerodynamic advantage the Ford Taurus had that year. Allowing the #24 team to use traction control may have been NASCAR's way to tell Ford that they weren't happy with the competition imbalance that resulted from the Ford Taurus that year. Remember that in Las Vegas that year, Fords finished in all but one of the top 14 positions, and NASCAR probably remembered that, and allowed the top Chevrolet team to cheat so that Ford wouldn't win EVERY race during the second half of the 1998 season. 216. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2011 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Traction control is so sophisticated there is hardly any way of being caught. Hell, I was talking to some guys that run Modifieds locally here in the South and they say there is a guy who will install it in your car and it is completely undetectable. That is why the Myers Brothers have been so successful at Bowman Gray. They can afford it and nobody else can. One of them won the big Mod race at Martinsville a few years ago but were DQed for having traction control and an illegal transmission. 217. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2011 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly, DSFF. Though that is one very big reason why NASCAR has been afraid to go to fuel injection until now, I think it has been used for years, and as I mentioned in post #214, NASCAR has, I believe LET teams use it, just as it has let teams cheat from time to time. and it's nothing new. Back in 1965, Ford had no competition due to the Chrysler boycott over the banning of the hemi engines, so a team, I don't know which one, ran a Chevrolet in the World 600 at Charlotte that year. From what I heard, the car in question was illegal, and not only did NASCAR allow it to race, but NASCAR KNEW it was illegal, ubt they wanted a different make of car to race and show well. Then there was the situation that NASCAR also wnated GM, which had withdrawn from NASCAR in 1964, to return, and they thouhgt this might be a way to get them back. There have also been rumors that the Chevelle that Curtis Turner won the pole for the 1967 Daytona 500 with was highly illegal, but NASCAR let Smokey Yunick, who was a GM man through and through, get away with any infractions because NASCAR wanted to get Chevrolet back in the sport, but that wouldn't happen until 1971. so not only has there been cheating in the sport's history, but there have actually been times where NASCAR actually knew about it and let it happen becuase they hoped the end results would benefit the sport. Sometimes it has and sometimes it hasn't. 218. Mr X posted: 09.30.2011 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure that traction control could be undetectable that easily, the computer that controls it has to have some way of measuring the speed of the driven wheels as opposed to the wheels that aren't driven. Anti-Lock brakes work the same way, they compare the speed of all four wheels relative to eachother. There would have to be multiple speed sensors all over the car, and they operate around electronic pulses caused by a changing magnetic field, the car would be covered in sensors. 219. 00andJoe posted: 10.01.2011 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There have also been rumors that the Chevelle that Curtis Turner won the pole for the 1967 Daytona 500 with was highly illegal," That wasn't the infamous 7/8-Scale Chevelle, was it? 220. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.01.2011 - 2:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm only 18 and I'm disgusted with what they are doing, sweeping the traditions under the rug for some fake shiny garbage. NASCAR races from 10 or more years ago are the most exciting ones." I hear ya. I'm not much older than you (I'm 21), and seeing NASCAR get rid of a date at Darlington (the traditional Southern 500 date of all things), doing away with The Rock altogether, implementing the cha$e, making Vegas even more boring than it was before (just when it was starting to grow into a track with good racing, in its own right), and getting rid of an Atlanta date made me want to puke. I started watching the sport in the mid 90's, when I was still really young so I didn't witness tradition for as long as others on this site have, but I'd still been watching long enough to feel stripped of joy when all of that happened. 221. Anonymous posted: 10.01.2011 - 5:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Trevor Bayne is too conservative." Look at his stats. He finished second in USAR points in 2005. 222. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2011 - 10:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And sometimes NASCAR actually aids in the cheating (the '01 Firecracker 400). I don't think NASCAR let Gordon and Evernham cheat. Obviously there were situations they took it easy on them like the T Rex car. But in 1998 they kept giving and giving to the Fords because they were getting embarrassed so bad by the 24. Ford was not happy about Jeff's complete ass kickings over the previous 3 seasons, and another big season looking inevitable. The result was Gordon not slowing down, but the rest of the Chevy teams struggling, especially Earnhardt. That is why the list of '98 winners is pretty much Gordon and Ford teams. 223. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bayne, to me, is a bit too conservative at times, but from an article I read, that may have something to do with an incident that occurred in about 2007 or '08 when he was still a DEI development driver with a teammate when they were racing, in the eyes of those in charge there, a bit too hard. (And that was after the season you mentioned, Anonymous #221.) And ever since then, from what I've seen, and that's the only thing I can judge it by, he has been a bit too conservative, though there are other reasons why he hasn't shown what everyone, myself included, thinks he's capable of. He's also driven for low-budget, or sponsorless teams in his career, so he couldn't be aggressive, even if he wanted to be. And that continues now with Roush, who doesn't even seem interested in sponsoring him, otherwise he would've found sponsorship for him a long time ago. Roush also did him a major disservice earlier this year not running the #16 NNS car in the first Iowa race, meaning that Bayne has had to qualify on time for every race since he got back in the car after his illness, so he's had to be conservative in qualifying. We all know what he can do in qualifying if he can go all-out. His three consecutive poles in the middle of last year is proof of that. But ever since he got in the Nationwide Series, which includes his time at Roush this year, as well as his time in the #21 car in the Cup Series, he's basically been racing with one hand tied behind his back the entire time, except for that one stretch last year with Michael Waltrip when he was as competitve as anyone in the Nationwide Series, but didn't know how to finish off races. That's why I think, if he is released by Roush at season's end, which I think may happen, that he needs to go look at a Chevrolet team, since the Chevrolet teams, for the most part, actually take care of their drivers, something Kasey Kahne will find out next year. It seems to me that Chevrolet has always looked at their drivers and teams as a family, going back to the days when Cale Yarborough (with Junior Johnson) and Benny Parsons were the Chevrolet drivers of note, while Roush, who is really the ONLY game in town where Ford is concerned, looks at his drivers as merely tools. 224. Cooper posted: 10.01.2011 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "222. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.11 - 10:30 am" Why do you believe NASCAR aided Jr.? I've heard people say it's been fixed, but obviously it wasn't. I respect you a lot, but to see you believe in a conspiracy theory is shocking. I just want to know why and how NASCAR "aided" Dale Jr. 225. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, do you remember that Ford was dominating everything in the first half of the 1998 season. So much so that the man leading the points for much of the first half of the season was Jeremy Mayfield. The Fords had a ridiculous aerodynamic advantage in 1998, and NASCAR needed a way of making sure they didn't win EVERY race. They attempted to take away aerodynamics from the Fords, but even that failed to balance the competition. so when the whole "tiregate" thing at Loudon surfaced, while the type of cheating that Roush alleged from the #24 car was, in my view, inaccurate, I believe that the #24 team was cheating, and NASCAR knew it and let them get away with it, because they knew that was the only way that Ford would not win EVERY race, and I believe NASCAR knew that letting the top Chevrolet team cheat was the only way to keep Ford from winning EVERY race. 226. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 11:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, the T-Rex car, from what I understand, was legal when it was built, but NASCAR made some rule modifications for the Coca-Cola 600 the following week that effectively outlawed the car. And 00andJoe, you would, if the information is accurate, be correct about Yunick '67 Daytona pole-winning car being the 7/8 Chevelle. and if that's so, why would NASCAR let that car, which also used the #13, which itself was taboo in racing, keep the pole position, other than the fact they wanted Chevrolet back in the sport. And DSFF, I do believe that NASCAR allowed Dale earnhardt, Jr. to run a slightly (probably by 1/32 inch, which is inperceptable to those watching) larger restrictor plate for the 2001 Firecracker 400, due to the circumstances of the Daytona 500, won brilliantly by Michael Waltrip, but forever overshadowed by the tragedy of Dale earnhardt's fatal final-lap crash. By the way, does anyone else think that Michael Waltrip is like the Gordon Johncock of the Daytona 500, as he won twice but never really got to enjoy either victory. For your information, Johncock's wins at Indy were in the tragic 1973 race, where he lost a teammate (Swede Savage), as well as a crewman from another teammate's crew (Armando Teran), as well as the fact that the '73 Indy race was postponed twice and eventually shortened to 133 laps/332.5 miles by rain, and his win in the greatest Indy 500 of all, in 1982, was also tempered by his mother's death on the night of the victory banquet. Michael Waltrip's Daytona 500 wins were, of course, that 2001 race which was overshadowed by Earnhardt's death, and in 2003, when rain first deleayed the race, and then shortened it to 109 laps/272.5 miles, by far the shortest Daytona 500 in history (the previous shortest Daytona 500 in history was in 1965, which was shortened to 133 laps/332.5 miles, the exact length of Johncock's 1973 Indy victory), so Waltrip never really got to enjoy either one of his Daytona 500 victories, much like Gordon Johncock was never able to really enjoy either of his two Indianapolis 500 victories. 227. Cooper posted: 10.01.2011 - 11:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "226. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.11 - 11:08 am" There is no way in hell NASCAR gave Dale Jr. a bigger restrictor plate. It's not possible. NASCAR isn't that dumb. The risk of the public finding out outweighed the popularity rise NASCAR would get from the #8 winning. So when all the teams lined up to get their restrictor plate.... NASCAR had a separate one for Dale Jr.? It's hard to believe. All the teams see NASCAR pick a plate and all of them see NASCAR putting the plate on the car. I'm going to wait for DSFF's response before I go off the deep end. On another note responding to Michael Waltrip's shitty victories, is that only 1 came under normal conditions. The Talladega win. 2001 Daytona 500: Sr's death 2002 Pepsi 400: Ran under caution for 4 laps, seat cushions thrown on the racetrack. That was BS. Sterling and Rusty could've won that one, if they just went back to green. 2003 Daytona 500: BS rain win. The Daytona 500 should never be cut short of it's 500 mile distance. But I'm still waiting on you DSFF. 228. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, the 2003 Daytona 500 went the required distance to be an official race, which is 100 laps. and it's hardly the only major race in history to be significantly shortened by rain. Others include the 1987 Southern 500, which only ran 202 laps/276.134 miles, the 1969 Soutern 500, which only ran 231 laps/316 miles, the 1968 World 600, which only ran 255 laps/382.5 miles, and more than 100 of those laps were run under caution, the 2009 Coca-Cola 600, which was won under strange circumstances due to rain, and perhaps, the most infamous rain-shortened race of all, the 1976 Indianapolis 500, which only went one lap past the required distance to make the race official, 102 laps/255 miles. In fact, the caution flag came out for rain on the 100th lap, just before it became an official race. And there are other good examples of major racing events being shortened by rain, some of which were cut considerably short. So your point about the fact that the crown jewels of racing should never be shortened by rain is absolutely ludicrous. In fact, the Daytona 500 has been shortened by rain three other times, but I don't see anyone complaining about those. Maybe because they were won by Fred Lorenzen (1965), Richard Petty (1966), and Matt Kenseth (2009), all of whom were either champions, or championship-caliber drivers. And Cooper, in my point about believing that NASCAR gave Dale, Jr. a bigger plate by 1/32 of an inch, I mentioned that a something that small is absolutely inperceptable, so how could anyone know if the plate he was given was bigger by that amount, because nobody would be able to notice anyway. But I do believe that something foul went on that night, and that's the most likely possibility, but hardly the only one. 229. Sean posted: 10.01.2011 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First, you mentioned that the open-wheel to NASCAR train was driven by the fact that the Nationwide and Truck Series was diluted of talent. Well guess what. For the most part, it STILL IS. Except for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. and Austin Dillon, there's no other young driver in either of those two series that could run anywhere near the front in Cup right now." Well, yeah. I certainly agree with that. The open-wheel boom STARTED because of Nationwide having a diluted field. It ended because most of the drivers (except for JPM and Allmendinger, and even they haven't been too great) were busts. So since then we've had no rookies of note whatsoever, with Conway winning the ROTY last year and Lally this year. "They did mesh, but the problem there was that Moore's equipment at that time was as sturdy as dry brush, so there were many failures (Earnhardt failed to finish 18 races in 1982)." Yeah, I guess that was dumb. His equipment from the early '80s on was not capable of running flat-out over an entire race distance, so while more conservative drivers like Ricky Rudd and Morgan Shepherd could have great points finishes, drivers like Dale Earnhardt and Geoff Bodine were too aggressive for the equipment and thus unreliable. I suppose that's what I meant by Earnhardt being unable to "mesh". I wasn't talking about chemistry; I was talking about him not having the proper driving style for a team with unreliable equipment. "I also disagree that Gordon was ultra-successful because the stars of the Earnhardt-era were in decline. Well, that's just not true." I'm not changing my tune on this. Most of the drivers I mentioned were still capable of WINNING, yes, but were not at their peaks. Waltrip was completely over-the-hill. Earnhardt could still win but was hampered by injury and was usually a 7th-place driver (and I think his 2nd in points in his final season was rather overrated...he was only 2nd because he had 0 DNFs, but wasn't even in the top ten in laps led. Convinces me he was pretty much points racing Terry Labonte-style). Wallace was capable of winning a race or two a season, but was only ever really a dominant force in 1996 and 2000. In most other years, he was considered JUST a short track specialist and not considered a threat everywhere as in 1989 and 1993-94. In fact, I'd say anybody who started watching in 1997 or so would think of Rusty as just a short track guy who sucks on the rest of the schedule. Granted, that might just be due to losing Buddy Parrott and Todd Parrott from his team at the same time, but I really think he took a step down in general after 1994, or at the very latest 1996. He definitely wasn't in his prime in Gordon's mega-years of 1997 and 1998. Rudd? Again, I'm talking about post-1996 here. His 1997-99 points finishes were very weak, but I guess that's because pretty much all the owner drivers were no longer relevant by then. Elliott? Maybe ditto, but I think he had slipped after 1992 anyway, before starting his team. That may have just been due to Junior Johnson firing Tim Brewer after their 1992 choke, but he was pretty much irrelevant in 1993-94. T. Labonte? Still relevant through 1996, but after the first half of 1997, he was pretty much just like Rusty, and then after 1999, took another huge step backward. Okay, I'll maybe admit most of these drivers were at the TAIL END of their prime. But during Gordon's peak (and I'm mainly talking about 1997-98 here, not 1995), Earnhardt took a step down from 1986-1995, Rusty took a step down from 1989-1994, T. Labonte took a step down from his early '80s Billy Hagan performances (far more impressive than anything he did for Hendrick in my view), Elliott took a step down from 1983-88, Rudd took a step down from 1990-1994. Maybe it's just the teams, but I don't think so. When Earnhardt was competing with most of the drivers I named, they were more relevant than they were when Gordon was dominant, and I think that's a large reason for the difference in wins. I'm not saying those drivers were COMPLETELY irrelevant or over-the-hill (that didn't happen for most of them until shortly after Dale Earnhardt's death). But I think we can agree that none of them were at their PEAKS, and it wasn't just due to Gordon. Martin was certainly relevant. Jarrett was a good driver but I don't think he would have come CLOSE to winning a title in a period like 1986-1992 or 2002-now when the field was STACKED with tons of contenders. I view Jarrett as like a 7th-place driver at his peak with the best crew chief at the time (I think Todd Parrott was actually superior to Ray Evernham). B. Labonte I view as worse than that. It's hard to argue against Jarrett's entire career, but I think it would more resemble somebody like Ryan Newman's if he had competed against 10 drivers who were all in their prime like now or the early '90s. B. Labonte on the other hand? Sorry, still not impressed. He won a race or two a year (not improving on Jarrett's results in the car at all) until Tony Stewart elevated the team, BL had two good seasons (in my opinion actually riding Stewart's coattails) and then doing not much of anything. B. Labonte didn't do a whole lot not on his beloved cookie-cutters of Atlanta, Charlotte, and Michigan. One Southern 500 win (where he essentially Loganoed the field by just winning by beating everyone else out of the pits on a caution for rain). One short track win. And he had no real career adversity, struggles with equipment in the Gibbs era, or frequent crew chief changes that can derail a career. I actually LIKE BL a lot, and his 1999-2000 seasons were good, but I don't know, he feels far less iconic than any other modern-era champion. I think even Sterling Marlin might have been able to better BL's performances in the #18. I think leading the points for almost the entire year in the #40 car is more impressive than anything BL ever did. I think Jeff Burton was a little better than Bobby Labonte because he could do better on the short tracks, flat tracks, and driver's ovals. But I think he too benefited from not much competition in the same period, and has not been very impressive in the last decade at all to me. Not much competition meaning that these drivers were BEGINNING their decline (from usually multi-win seasons to 1-2 wins a year). I'm hardly saying any of those drivers (especially Rusty) were completely irrelevant, just not really near their peaks. "A driver and team no longer have to be good on all types of tracks to win a title" And I'd say this wasn't necessarily true in the past either. BL won one short track race, few flat track races, one Southern 500 where he got ridiculously lucky, one Brickyard 400 that was an excellent drive, no road courses, even only one plate win (when plate racing had marginally more to do with talent than it does now and we've seen what the #20 could do on the plate tracks). He did do a good job of getting weak top 10s/top 15s at his bad tracks, and deserves credit for that. And Johnson HAS been good on all types of tracks. Even though he frequently sucks on plate tracks and road courses, he has wins on 3/4 of those tracks. Where exactly has Johnson sucked? In fact, thinking about the 8 drivers who still have title shots (I think Junior, Kurt, Hamlin, and Newman are done, but the others could still win), they all appear to be good on all types of tracks except Kenseth who struggles on road courses and some short tracks. It's weird saying that about Keselowski, but he has been ridiculously versatile the last ten races or so. The 2nd at Watkins Glen where he was right up there with Ambrose and Kyle all race sold me on him. 230. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, referring to your comment about conservatibe drivers doing better in Bud Moore's equipment than the more aggressive drivers. Well, Benny Parsons was as conservative as they got, and even he had trouble finishing races in Bud Moore's cars in 1981, so that shoots that theory in the foot. you also mention that Bobby Labonte won the 2000 Southern 500 simply by beating his competition out of the pits on the final stop before it rained, which he certainly did. (He actually pulled that off in a back-up car, since the throttle hung on the car he was going to race in that event, resulting in a hard crash.) Well, older brother Terry won the 1980 running of the Southern 500 simply by watching the three leaders (David Pearson, Dale Earnhardt, and Parsons) crash in oil on the next-to-last lap, and then beating Pearson to the caution by about two feet to win that race. Now tell me that's not lucking into a win? And he didn't win again until Dale Inman became his crew chief in 1983. And I say that you don't have to be good on all types of tracks to win the championship because there are no road courses and only one official short track race in the Chase, with fully half of the Chase races being on 1.5 mile ovals. If you're great on the 1.5-mile tracks, you can be marginal on the other tracks and dodge the wrecks at Talladega, and you'll have a great chance at the championship. and dodging the crashes at Talladega may be even more important with the rules changes, as I don't think there will be more than 10-12 healthy cars at the end of that race. I think the Chase needs to be changed to have one marquee event, as well as a greater blend of tracks. Maybe one more short track and one road course. Many years ago, former USGA president Sandy Tatum said that the U.S. Open was about identifying the best player when it came to winning the U.S. Open golf championship. As of now, because of the current set of tracks used in the Chase, the Chase currently does NOT identify the best driver and team on all types of tracks, but rather on a small section of tracks, most notably 1.5 mile ovals, not to mention the Talladega luck factor of being one of about 10-15 healthy cars running at the finish due to all the crashes there. 231. Cooper posted: 10.01.2011 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "228. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.11 - 12:44 pm" All big events should be completed in full. Game 7 World Series, you think they'd end it after 6 innings because of rain?....No they wouldn't. The 2009 Kenseth win was BS as well. I don't even consider him a winner of the Great American Race. Sorry Kenseth fans. And I think it's ludicrous that you, a well educated racing fan would believe NASCAR rigged a race for Dale Jr. You're an idiot. Dale Jr. didn't need any help. He would've won those races with a smaller restrictor plate. I'm guessing you didn't watch any of the restrictor plate races from that era?..the era in which Dale Jr. would just pull out and pass everybody by himself. So I guess he had a bigger plate in every race. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm still waiting on DSFF's response on this, because that's the opinion I want to hear not yours. 232. Cooper posted: 10.01.2011 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "228. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.11 - 12:44 pm" "And there are other good examples of major racing events being shortened by rain, some of which were cut considerably short. So your point about the fact that the crown jewels of racing should never be shortened by rain is absolutely ludicrous. In fact, the Daytona 500 has been shortened by rain three other times, but I don't see anyone complaining about those. Maybe because they were won by Fred Lorenzen (1965), Richard Petty (1966), and Matt Kenseth (2009), all of whom were either champions, or championship-caliber drivers." NO ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT THE 2009 Daytona 500? IS THIS GUY SERIOUS? HERE'S SOME QUOTES FROM THE 2009 RACE PAGE...ON THIS SITE! Quote #1: ..."What a god-awful race. After seeing good side-by-side racing in the Bud Shootout and the qualifiers I got my hopes up that this race would be similar. It started out that way with 3 different drivers leading the first 3 laps, but then it settled into a repeat of the 1999 Daytona 500 where nobody could pass the leader. I like Matt Kenseth but I find it digusting that NASCAR would wait til after 2am Eastern time to postpone a race at that miserable excuse for a track in Fontana yet they call this one 20 minutes after red flagging it." Quote #2: ..."Crap. Thats about it. It rains for 10? minutes...they know its going to stop, and they can race later...but no its called." Quote #3: ..."What a BS race. So many things made this the worst 500 ever." Quote #4: ..."They should call this race 2008 Lenox Industrial Tools 301 Part 2, or the "Matt Kenseth Miracle." Daytona is one of his worst tracks yet he gets to walk away with the trophy. I was pulling so bad for Sadler, and he was so crushed to not win it. Shame on NASCAR to call the race just like that after not even trying to restart the race. They need to stop hyping it as the "Great American Race" if they can't give it the respect that it deserves." Quote #5: ..."Race wasn't anything. And with A QUARTER of it left they call it? Sorry Matt Kenseth but you didn't WIN this race. NASCAR is a corporate sponsor whore. They wouldn't dare mess with FOX and their precious TV lineup even for the biggest race of the year. Not the first time it's happened" Quote #6: ..."What a stupid race Matt wins the Daytona 380 not the 500. This is almost as bad as Mikey and the Daytona 267.5 in 2003. NASCAR needs to something about the rain and this race in particular. They need to have new rules in place so the big races get completed no matter what the cost run this the next day it is a holiday already everyone would have come back to see the last 48 laps." Quote #7: ..."Worst 500 since 2003. I know the rules are rules, but there's got to be a way to make sure the biggest race of the year goes the full distance. Especially today, when they would have had the track dry by 9 and been able to finish it." Quote #8: ..."Well Lets see......I am truly dissapointed in this Daytona 500...i mean 380 Not only that they called the race after only 20 minutes or so and from what I heard it stopped raining about 20 or 30 minutes after they called it...they tried harder to restart that California race a few years ago than they did tonight." Quote #9: ..."What has Nascar come too?" Quote #10: ..."What a uter piece of fail this was,I'm happy for Matt Kenseth and Jack Roush but COME ON NASCAR!!!!!! They didn't even try to dry the track and yet last year at Fontana they kept us up till one-two in the morning trying to keep the race going....and NASCAR wonders why they're losing fans." Quote #11: ..."All Nascar cares about is money. And FOX pisses me off so bad when they kiss Nascar's butt for pulling the stupid decisions they do. At Bristol in '95 they went past 12 during the Saturday night race for rain. The biggest race of the year and they can't race on Monday to complete the remaining 48 laps? WEAK! Nascar= National Auto Stock Car Association of Rippingpeopleoff... Who cares if everyone won't see it. Race it! This is the biggest race of the year and we go 380 miles. BOOOOOOOO!!! This is why Nascar has been headed in a downward spiral the past few years. This might be a ploy to save on gas and tires as well for the economy. Damn shame, it really is..." Quote #12: ..."I wouldn't call it the worst 500 ever because at least Michael Waltrip didn't win. But it was a pathetic excuse of a race, glad I missed most of it. When half of the top 10 don't even belong in the top 10, you know there are problems." Quote #13: ..."Nothing against him, but Kenseth is probably the most undeserving Daytona 500 winner ever, after Cope and Burton." ALL OF THIS WITHIN THE FIRST 24 COMMENTS! I want to see how you get yourself out of this one smooth talker. 233. Smokefan05 posted: 10.01.2011 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ now you know why i throw NASCAR fans under the bus Cooper, NOW YOU KNOW WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cuz they deserve it. "Many years ago, former USGA president Sandy Tatum said that the U.S. Open was about identifying the best player when it came to winning the U.S. Open golf championship." US Open is a good test, but the British Open is bigger test. Links golf is different then US Golf. Windy, rainy, bunkers so deep you'd get lost in them (thank you David Ferhety), and the field is much deeper. You win the British Open, you have talent, even if its your only PGA Tour/Major win. You have talent. Too me, winning The Open at St. Andrews is a major thing. You win there, you have talent. 234. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I said that no one complained about the 2009 Daytona 500, then I apologize, but the complaints were nowhere near as loud, or as many, as they were in 2003, when that race went just 109 laps. (The 1965 race went just 133, and 43 were run under caution, mostly for rain). Sure there were complaints, but I think that since Matt Kenseth, a past series champion, won that race, and that Jack Roush finally won that race after 22 years of trying, which has been a trend in that race in recent years (Penske after 37 years, Roush after 22, Sabates after 22, and the Wood Brothers after 35), I think dulled a lot of that race's critics. But sure there were complaints. For instance, there were only nine lead changes, mostly because Kyle Busch was blocking the whole track while he was leading. Once he was out of the race in that huge crash, the racing greatly improved. But it was my mistake for saying there were few complaints about that race and I apologize dearly for it. As for my comment about the U.S. Open identifying the best player in the world that week and how it compares to identifying a champion. The reason I made that comment is that in the U.S. Open, a golfer generally has to use EVERY club in his bag expertly to win. The same should be true in NASCAR. A driver should have to excel at EVERY kind of track to earn the championship, and he does not, due to the Chase. He doesn't have to excel at short tracks (though there are three one mile tracks in the Chase), and road races and oddball tracks don't even count, since all the races at those tracks have already been run. What short tracks and road courses demand are the finesse needed to get around the track in tough conditions. Then you have the 1.5-mile tracks that make up half the schedule. Aggressiveness is what counts there. Then, of course there is Talladega, where survival is the key, as I don't expect there to be more than about 12 healthy cars to even finish the race there, if I'm right about the crashes that I think will take place. After all, there were only about 10-12 healthy cars at the end of the Daytona 500 earlier this year. 235. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Cooper, this year's Daytona 500 champion, as much as I like him, may be the most undeserving of them all, and there have been 35 of them. More undeserving than Panch, Lund, Hamilton, Parsons, Cope, Burton, all of them. 236. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I believe what cjs is saying about June getting a less restrictive restrictor plate. I say that because that was the era of roof fins, wicker bills, and cars that really disrupted the air. This led to cars being shuffled to the front then to the back constantly. Watching that race, I'm just going by what my eyes tell me. Only that #8 car could stay up front all race. That was the only one that didn't get shuffled around. He was also the only one making passes with no help. I don't get involved in a lot of conspiracy theories. But my eyes tell me something was different on the 8 car that night. I understand if you think that is dumb. Obviously, as he would show over the next 3 years he could have won without the help. But I think they gave him a different plate. 237. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2011 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I never knew all that about Gordon Johncock. I really hate that for him. For some reason, I though Johnny Rutherford won the 72 Hours of Indy. Of course the big difference between him and Mikey is that Gordon is an open wheel legend while Mikey's career is completely pathetic outside of those two wins. Rain wins kind of depend on the situation. In Matt's Daytona 500 win, he took the lead under green before it rained with no special pit strategy. Compared to Logano's win where he inherited the lead by staying out and just praying for rain. And then there are situations like Dale's '87 Southern 500 win where he led half the laps, had already won 9 races to that point, and would win 2 of the next 3 Southern 500s (oddly enough that is his only rain shortened win). I compare that to Jeff Gordon's win in the infamous '97 Coca Cola "500". He won 2 full distance 600s and that was one of 10 victories that year for him. You can't say under any circumstance either is an undeserving winner. 238. Cooper posted: 10.01.2011 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "236. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.11 - 7:11 pm" I purely just think that DEI was hands above the rest of the competition. Michael Waltrip winning 4 races should underline that fact. And yes, while Dale Jr. did dominate that race by leading 116 of the 160 laps, there was other cars that night that could pull out and pass by themselves. Also the July night race is always open to domination. The handling aspect plays a big factor in the summer race, so if a team gets a good handle on the car they have the availability to lead lots of laps. Looking at the statistics, here are the most laps led by a driver in the Daytona night race... 2001-Dale Earnhardt Jr. 116 2002-Michael Waltrip 99 2003-Kevin Harvick 54 2004-Jeff Gordon 61 2005-Tony Stewart 151-He definitely cheated, maybe he was given a special RP too 2006-Tony Stewart 86 2007-Clint Bowyer 55 In 4 of those 7 races, a driver led more than 50% of the laps. 239. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, DSFF, Rutherford was on the pole for that 1973 Indy race, but it was Johncock that won after every other driver that had speed fell out of the race, which resulted in just 10 cars finishing a race that went just 133 laps. And of course you're right about Earnhardt's 1987 Southern 500 win and Gordon's 1997 Coca-Cola 600 win, as they would probably have won those races anyway if the race had gone the full distance. And Cooper, you are absolutely corret when you say the Firecracker 400 is open to domination by one driver. In fact, Cale Yarborough lapped the field twice when he won that event in 1968. now some of the dominant performances, Stewart's 2005 race in particular, came about because you simply could not pass, even if you were 5 MPH faster than the car you were trailing, because with those cars, the draft actually worked in reverse, hindering the following cars instead of helping them. Remember that in the 2003 NNS summer race at Daytona, Dale Earnhardt, Jr. led wire-to-wire, leading all 100 laps under the same aerodynamic rules package. And let's remember one thing about Michael Waltrip. As sketchy as his overall driving career was, he ran up front at Daytona and Talladega, no matter who he was driving for. He very nearly won the 1992 Daytona 500 driving for Bahari Racing, and was a contender there for that team in 1993 and '94, was a front runner for the Wood Brothers, and finished fifth in 1999 at Daytona driving the #7 car for Jim Mattei Motorsports. All that before he got with DEI, and when he got into equipment that equaled his ability on those tracks, you can see what happened. And he could very easily have won the 2005 Daytona 500 for DEI as well, before his engine let go at the 400-mile mark of that race, as he was up there with Stewart and Jeff Gordon, who won that race, all day. 240. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2011 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good point Cooper. Like I said, that 8 team didn't need any help. But I think they got some. One thing to remember, that was the only Daytona Summer race with the roof fin. In the other roof fin races (all 500 mile races), nobody led half as many laps as June led that night in 400 miles. But they proved in the following years they deserved that win. 241. Smokefan05 posted: 10.01.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And let's remember one thing about Michael Waltrip. As sketchy as his overall driving career was, he ran up front at Daytona and Talladega, no matter who he was driving for. He very nearly won the 1992 Daytona 500 driving for Bahari Racing, and was a contender there for that team in 1993 and '94, was a front runner for the Wood Brothers, and finished fifth in 1999 at Daytona driving the #7 car for Jim Mattei Motorsports. All that before he got with DEI, and when he got into equipment that equaled his ability on those tracks, you can see what happened. And he could very easily have won the 2005 Daytona 500 for DEI as well, before his engine let go at the 400-mile mark of that race, as he was up there with Stewart and Jeff Gordon, who won that race, all day." I agree 100% (this might be the last post on this thread before Dover lol) with this. As much as Mikey sucked on some tracks, when it came to Daytona and Talladega, Mikey was a factor no matter what he was driving. Even with mid-pack Plate track equipment, he could have a shot at winning those races. Yes DEI was a country mile ahead of everyone else at Tona and Dega but even Mikey could take 25th place plate track car and run top 10 with it. 242. Cooper posted: 10.02.2011 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "240. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.11 - 9:33 pm" The only response to your argument about the RP package in 2001, is in the fall Talladega race, the DEI cars led 120 of the 188 laps. They were just dominant, even with the Quasi aerodynamic package. Also the 01' Pepsi 400 turned out to be very tame compared to the other RP races. I strictly remember not seeing too much racing. Even at the front and at the back of the pack. I wish I could shake your head, and convince you that it didn't happen but obviously you believe it did. I'll leave you with this... At the RP races, NASCAR has a box full of restrictor plates. The teams are able to choose a restrictor plate from the inventory. NASCAR then puts the chosen plate on the car. NASCAR does this to prove that all the plates are the same. They then inspect the cars before the race and after the race for confirmation. Even if NASCAR wanted to give Dale Jr. a bigger plate, it wouldn't be possible because all the plates are picked at random. There's only two conceivable ways to do it. Option#1: Dale Jr.'s team was the first to pick, and the plate had a small sticker or some sort of marking to let the selector know which one was larger. Option#2: In pre-race inspection, NASCAR officials removed the legal restrictor plate and carefully inserted a new, larger plate. Other teams though would notice this as they too are in the inspection line. It just wasn't possible. Even if it was possible, NASCAR wasn't in a position to risk it's respectability and popularity over one race. Sometimes stories aren't too good to be true. That win was an incredible story not made by man, but made by fate. 243. the_man posted: 10.08.2011 - 10:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a seventh place finish: "We made some good calls and put ourselves in position to make it on fuel, so that was a good pit call by Drew and our team. We didn't have the best of cars today, but we showed that with some hard work and good strategy we could overcome that. It feels good for the UPS team to get a top 10. We had a top five in sight, but we had to save enough fuel at the end. I didn't want to run out, so it was a good job by everybody and now it's on to Dover.' 244. What?? posted: 10.30.2011 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Y'all people have no life. Especially cjs 3872, mr x, Cooper and Dale sr fan forever why write these long post? Y'all must be out of work drawing a check to have that much time to waste on this site. Go get a job!!! 245. Robert Nelson posted: 07.13.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points Kyle Busch 246 Carl Edwards 223 Jeff Gordon 215 F1 points Chase Brad Keselowski 37 Kevin Harvick 30 Jeff Gordon 21 F1 points real life Chase Tony Stewart 50 Kevin Harvick 30 Brad Keselowski 28 246. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 04.24.2014 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Withdrew 60 Mike Skinner Toyota Big Red Mike Hillman 247. Anthony2 posted: 06.03.2020 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wished Steve Park ran this race, he would've completed the full distance. It's disappointing that his last race was in a start & park effort. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: