|| *Comments on the 2011 Ford 400:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. Lordlowe posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) the moment of truth is nearly at hand as this dreadful season comes to a close 2. 18fan posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martin Truex Jr qualifies 2nd, we'll see if the #56 team's trend of running well until the first or second pit stop and then being a non-factor continues. Kasey Kahne has an excellent shot at winning 2 races in a row. 3. KahnesGal4 posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards has the championship in hand, I think. Unless the race comes down to something like fuel mileage. 4. Red posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unless the race comes down to something like fuel mileage." That's my biggest fear for this race. I'm fine with either Carl or Tony winning the championship, but I really hope it's decided on the track, and the fastest man wins. It would be such a buzkill to have this title fight decided by fuel mileage. Although, given the way 2011 has played out, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what transpires. I highly doubt it'll happen, but it would be cool to see David Reutimann win this race, because this may be the last ride he ever gets in even semi-competitve equipment. I'd be willing to bet that Mark won't do any better in the #00 car next year, and we know Mikey won't. 5. 18fan posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This season marks the first full time season that Jimmie Johnson has run that he didn't win a pole and the first season period for Denny Hamlin that he didn't win a pole. 6. Bronco posted: 11.19.2011 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With his third pole of the year and second pole at Homestead, combined with the best average start of all drivers, Carl Edwards clinches the overall season pole award. Final Cup race for: 1) The carburetor. Cup cars are now going to run electronic fuel injection, its going to be interesting to see how that affects fuel mileage calculations and which teams gain the early advantage. 2) David Reutimann with the MWR #00 Toyota. This may have been the most shocking dismissal I can recall. Reutimann won MWR's only two Cup races and was the best finishing MWR car in points from '07-'10 and got thanked with a pink slip. Ken Butler is a moron. 3) Home Depot as a full season sponsor. They have sponsored the #20 for almost every race of the season from 1999 to now, but next year they're only doing about 2/3 of the season. 4) Crown Royal as a Cup car sponsor. Despite Matt's consistent performances over the past two years, they decided it was better to be title sponsor of the Brickyard 400. Their only two wins came at fall Richmond 2005 with Kurt Busch and spring Texas 2011 with Kenseth. Fennig was the crew chief for both of those wins. Glad their ugly paint scheme is going away. 5) Clint Bowyer in the #33 ride. Had a good six years there, winning 5 races at only three tracks and making the chase in half of those years. The #33 ride is going away and Cheerios moves to the #31 ride, which reduces Caterpillar's sponsorship. 6) Red Bull Racing in the Cup Series. They won two races in six years, made the chase once and scored a few pole positions, but they never had the kind of success that their F1 team enjoys. Hopefully someone comes around to save that team for next year since they are a decent mid level team. 7. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.19.2011 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "the moment of truth is nearly at hand as this dreadful season comes to a close" Really? what racing are you watching? Smoke your not doing your self any favors with being 15th. Good luck Smoke and Carl. May the best driver win. 8. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2011 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That Roush intermediate program is just too much. Every single intermediate race this year has had two or three Roush cars up in the top 5 all race. 9. 18fan posted: 11.19.2011 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you are spot on. I was watching the Nationwide race and watching how much better Carl Edwards and Ricky Stenhouse Jr were than anybody else, but Brad stayed with Carl in turn 1 on a restart and put in a great defensive drive to hold on. I think Greg Biffle could easily win this race if his team can put a whole race together, which they haven't been able to do this year at all. 10. 00andJoe posted: 11.19.2011 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #46 sponsor: Green Stuff Absorbent/Anchor Texts 11. IHateSteveWallace! posted: 11.19.2011 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, you think that maybe carl edwards and ricky stenhouse jr. were better than everybody else because they are just better than everybody else? hope we have a good race tomorrow. it's been a great season, with everybody from trevor bayne to mike wallace to sam hornish jr. visiting victory lane, a two-man battle over the last 5 races for the championship, and kyle busch was parked for a weekend. all that combines for one of the best seasons ever. 12. 00andJoe posted: 11.19.2011 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Germain is changing manufacturers for next year - wonder if they might be aiming to become the #2 Dodge team? I can hope at least. 13. Cooper posted: 11.19.2011 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No IHateStevenWallace Ricky Stenhouse isn't better than everyone else...lol. The Ford Engines this year have incredible new technology that allows the ford teams to run a crazy amount of tape on the front grill. More tape=More Downforce=More Speed All of that equals a huge advantage on the downforce tracks like the intermediates. Why else do you think David Ragan does well on the intermediates and sucks on the short tracks? 14. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if I remember right, didn't Tony Stewart win the most recent race at Texas, as well as the race at Chicago to begin the Chase? And the last time I checked, they were 1.5 mile intermediate tracks. Sure, the Roush cars are very strong [well, Edwards and Kenseth are consistently strong, with Biffle in there not quite as often], but they're not unbeatable. After all, Stewart has won twice on intermediates in the Chase, Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, and Stewart ran 1-2-3 at Atlanta, Johnson dominated at Kansas in the Chase, and Penske dominated at Kansas in June. 400 miles is still; quite a bit of racing, and ANYTHING can happen. Remember that Edwards has had engine problems twice this year, including at Michgan. Edwards, of course in the favorite, by Stewart knows how to win a championship at NASCAR's highest level, having done so twice. Edwards has yet to do so, and he's got Hendrick Motorsports [and teammate Ryan Newman] behind him. 15. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, short tracks have actually given David Ragan some of his better results during his Cup career, especially Richmond, where he's finished third twice. And remember that he STILL lags behind his teammates on the intermediates, for the most part. 16. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, in post 14, when I said "he's" got Hendrick Motorsports and teammate Ryan Newman behind him, I was, of course, referring to Tony Stewart. Sorry about any confusion. 17. Lordlowe posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have said it before and I'll say it again why on earth does Dale Jr still have a job 18. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony has had some excellent intermediate runs in the cha$e, but the Roush cars are up front every single time. Tony's best shot at the title is to simply win. Carl will be in the Top 3. Tony has to win. 19. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First Cup series attempt for Sineca Motorsports and Grant Enfinger. 20. Jocke Persson posted: 11.20.2011 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good luck to both drivers. I predicted Stewart 1½ month ago, and I stick to that tonight. 21. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like both Stewart and Edwards, so I dont know who to root for I like Edwards due to all the Firsts this year but I like Stewart because im a Stewart fan I want Edwards becuase of his one and only win this year and I want to see a one-time winner and a winless driver becasue it'll annoy all you other Fans I want Stewart because it'll show the problem with the chase that everyone has been complaining about for the past 7 years 22. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) wow, that was a pretty good National Anthem I also liked the 4 trucks pulling the american Flag 23. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) is it just me or did everyone hear like 100,000 "boo's" when they called Michelle Obamas name? 24. DaleJrFan20 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I heard a few, guess NASCAR is still a redneck sport. 25. New 14&88 Fan posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good start so far, Kurt Busch's season may be over early though. "is it just me or did everyone hear like 100,000 "boo's" when they called Michelle Obamas name?" I certainly heard some booing when they mentioned her, regardless of how you feel about OHB's handling of the country the First Lady should of least be shown some respect 26. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) oh my God, Michelle Obama looks awful. I guess being Mein Fuhrer also wears you out. what is Dr Jill Bidens doctorate in? 27. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this my last political comment (hopefully) but Michelle Obama is the most pampered woman on earth...not Queen Elizabeth II 28. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Getting sick at sight on screen 29. Anonymous27 posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant getting sick at sight of the Mistresses Obama and Biden. 30. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Your 2011 Champion, Carl Edwards. It's just his year. Stewart gets screwed by some debris on the extremely rare occasion that NASCAR doesn't call a caution when there is ACTUAL debris on the track. A small chunk of rubber just out of the racing groove? Throw the yellow. Chunks of metal from a blown transmission? Screw it, let em race. Thanks alot NASCAR. Congrats Edwards. 31. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.20.2011 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was at Darlington the year they had Bill Clinton as the grand marshal, it was MUCH worse than today. 32. DaleJrFan20 posted: 11.20.2011 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am loving that top five right now 33. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 99 will have no engine or tire issues in this race. They are a team of destiny. Only a Stewart victory will keep them from the championship. 34. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so 2 Roush-yates Engines have failed, and so did a Hendrick Engine, so both Stewart and Edwards have the risk of losing engines 35. Cooper posted: 11.20.2011 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dream finish: Stewart is 1 point behind Carl, Brad passes Carl on the final lap. Brad gives Carl the double finger salute. Carl cries. What will really happen: Carl drives off to a 10 second victory, and Carl wins the 'chip. 36. RaceFanX posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kudos to Michelle for coming by, NASCAR has an image that doesn't match her's but is a good platform for what she wanted to get a message out (help military families) so nice to see her think outside the box...plus those boos were faint and brief and the cheers were louder about 30 seconds later at the command. And to answer a question Dr. Jill Biden's doctorate is in education. But enough about them, this is going to be an epic race despite the rain delay. 37. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ford folks look nervous, but they shouldn't be. The 99 is immune to bad luck. 38. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl's gonna win it all. He was fastest in pre-qualifying practices, and he went out and grabbed the pole yesterday. Plus, he has won this race in the previous two years that he was kicking butt with Roush ('08, the second half of '10). Hell, I'll be really surprised if he does not end up winning this RACE. 39. Mr X posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm sure Carl's motor was built by Robert Yates himself, the motor was built weeks in advance and massaged to perfection, that motor probably has gone through as much preperation as all the other motors they've ever built put together, it will make it to the finish. Also pleased to see how well Jeff Gordon is running, I know he typically runs well at Homestead, however I figured he would be an afterthought this weekend as General Motors and Hendrick Motorsports would have all their eggs in the basket labeled Tony Stewart. 40. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ok question, what happens when they run out of commercials? cause they are are already 1 hour behind schedule, so whats going to happen when they run out commercials? 41. StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted: 11.20.2011 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't care if it finishes at 2 am, they better get in every lap in this race. Anything can happen down until the last corner, and I don't want the season to be decided by some crappy NASCAR decision. 42. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ford folks look nervous, but they shouldn't be. The 99 is immune to bad luck." But I thought Edwards was a basket case, and basket cases can't win championships? Doesn't him winning the championship go against the very narrative that you've touted for the past 4 years or more? Oh but wait, if Stewart wins, then his 3 titles and 43 wins and going would start to make him look a lot more like he's living up to his potential, which you have said he hasn't been doing throughout his entire career. Unless 3 championships and most likely 50 wins before the end of his career suddenly isn't good enough for you. We all know you like to move those goalposts so you're never wrong about anything. The best part of this championship race, no matter who wins, DaleSrFanForever is wrong. Gotta love that. 43. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad the #18 doesn't run that Interstate Batteries paint scheme very often, because it looks sharp. The M&M's scheme just has too many colors for my taste. 44. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who says Homestead can't produce good racing? That restart was hectic! 45. DaleJrFan20 posted: 11.20.2011 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony's Hail Mary is either going to go down in history as the best or worst call...ever.... 46. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.20.2011 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darian, you just made the biggest risk/reward decision i have every seen a racetrack and it *may* have just worked out for you. 47. Spen posted: 11.20.2011 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Anonymous/Bronco: "But I thought Edwards was a basket case, and basket cases can't win championships?" They can, *if* they can keep their heads on straight for a year. Edwards has done that this year, much like Kurt in '04. "Unless 3 championships and most likely 50 wins before the end of his career suddenly isn't good enough for you." Considering that Tony is one of the three best drivers in the field, and has been with great teams? It's very, very good, but could have been better. He certainly should have won '06. And he's had 43 wins in 13 years. That's excellent. Jeff Gordon however, had 73 wins at this point in his career. Tony's just about as good, so the numbers should be closer. 48. Mr X posted: 11.20.2011 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race had better run full distance. And why isn't this a 500 mile race? This is great, however it better not come down to fuel mileage. 49. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, it looks like they'll get this race and the championship in the books today, which is a good thing. I won't have to worry about missing it due to work tomorrow. 50. Schroeder51 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My God, I think Tony is about to do it. 51. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yiiiiiiiiiiipppppppppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeee! 52. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Carl's gonna win it all." Excuse me, I have to eat my words on this one. Tony wanted this championship BAD, and that was an awesome drive coming back from that grill problem early, and he and Darian hit it just right with that gamble they took. 53. DaleJrFan20 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is how you win the championship! Best race of the season, BAR NONE! 54. Schroeder51 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First ever use of a tiebreaker to determine the champion. 55. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I take back everything I said about this title fight. 56. New 14&88 Fan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2011 Sprint Cup Champion is: Tony Stewart!!!! 57. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony wanted it more than Carl. First owner driver to win it all since Alan. 58. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Living Legend status.........................has just been obtained. 59. New 14&88 Fan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I think Darian Grubb need not worry about where he's gonna be working next season. 60. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2 years in a row the eventual champion started the race second in points 61. Mr X posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a race. Congrats to Tony Stewart! I hate the chase, but that was good. 62. Ryan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best championship race of all time? It's hard to argue that it wouldn't be where it came down to a TIE!... Again, 1992 and 1990 would be hard to top 63. 18fan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a ballsy call by Darian Grubb and it wins him the championship. Also gutsy calls by Paul Wolfe and Dave Rogers under the last caution to get Brad and Kyle up front. Although the call didn't end up paying off, it was a gutsy call especially by Paul Wolfe with the chance to possibly finish 3rd in points. Both Carl and Tony set records in the chase. Carl set the best average finish every in a chase and Tony won the most races ever in a chase. 64. BON GORDON posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Arguably the greatest points battle of all-time. Great job Tony Stewart and the 14 team. I wanted them to win and they did and as much as i dislike Carl Edwards he handled his loss with grace and professionalism. On a side note Jeff Gordon finishes 5th and will finish around 8th in points. So im pretty happy about that for sure. Good race and good season! 65. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smoke it now tied with DW, Cale Y., Lee Petty and The silver fox with 3 championships. A club that just got even more meaningfull. And he is also tied with Awsome Bill in wins. 66. Ryan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One could say that #2 cost Carl the title last week by racing him and costing him time at the end of the race, allowing Kahne to be faster... 67. Cooper posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Simply the best! That was the most incredible final 30 laps in my NASCAR history. No way did I think Tony would win 1 race in the chase, never-mind 5! And for the championship to come down to Man and Machine vs. Man and Machine. Incredible I thought it was Carl's all the way through...and it was, until the final third of this race. Tony Stewart is going to go down as one of the greatest drivers in NASCAR history. Kudos Tony. Kudos. And thumbs up to Carl for driving his ass off and being a class act all the way through the chase. He'll get his championship one day. Thank you for the great season guys. One of the best. 68. Baker posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pardon my language but HELLZ YEAH!!!!! I'm so pumped right now. I didn' watch the race because I was affraid to jinks Stewart. Just a few months ago I though I saw my favorite drivers career slowly tailing off into Bobby Labonte status and then 5 wins later and a "posseses man on a mission" like drive to a championship I can talk about him as the greatest racer of this era and not have to listen to anyones lame arguement as to why he's not. Congrats Stewart you are a legand!!! 69. EDWARDSARMY posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) THIS IS THE WORST CHAMPIONSHIP EVER CARL EDWARDS IS THE REAL CHAMAPION HE EDID NOT CHEET LIKE FAT BOY TONY STUART HE IS A CHEATER AND SO IS RICK HENDRICK AND GENE HASS THEY SHOUL STILL BE IN JAIL. SCREW CHEVY, NOT A REAL AMERICAN MANUFACTURER FORD AND TEA PARTY FOREVER!!!! 70. Schroeder51 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Fail. 71. DaleSrFanForeverCanSuckIt posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think my name says it all. Tony Stewart just flat out won the greatest championship battle in history. He broke the record for best average finish in the Chase, as well as the record for wins in the Chase. He won the title by winning the final race, because winning the final race was the only guarantee of winning the title. DaleSrFanForever and his golden boy Jimmie Johnson can suck it, Tony Stewart just drove the greatest Chase in history. Tony Stewart: American Auto Racing Legend. 72. jabber1990 posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) it took only 30 mintues but ESPN FINALLY releases the final running order that has to be some kind of record 73. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The last 3 races won me over for this title fight. Kinda like '92, the participants limped to the finish but pulled it together when it mattered. That is what killed me about '91 and '02, the participants limped to the end, and kept limping. Not this time. Sure Carl was really good but not overwhelming for 33 races, and Tony was mediocre for 26 races then alternately overwhelming and mediocre for 7 races, they were both overwhelming for the final 3. And yes, Tony is officially a living legend. 1995 Subaru, are you gonna change your name to SmokeFan11? 74. Mr X posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #69 needs a dictionary or this website needs spell check. 75. Evan posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) * Incredible end to an incredible season, may not top the 1992 Hooters 500 but Tony is the first owner driver to win the title, he took a downtrodden team with an owner in Gene Haas who was jailed for tax fraud and turned into champions. Hopefully it will bring more people to the sport and I hope next season will be great. * A lot of firsts, its Tony Stewart's first title not with Joe Gibbs a team he considers family. Its the first title decided by a tiebreaker, by wins as it should be. Tony won half the races in the Chase, first time he's done that. Gene Haas's first championship. * Final race for Kasey Kahne and Team Red Bull capping it off with 10th. Team Red Bull's final race. * First title winner not named Jimmie Johnson since Tony himself in 2005 under the Chase system, Tony also has his in 2002 under the Cup championship. * One more thing, Congratulations to Tony Stewart, Darian Grubb and all the guys working on the 14, YOU ARE THE CHAMPIONS FOR 2011!!! * Also it will be very difficult for the title runnerup, Carl Edwards. They exuded so much momentum in the final stretch, it will be difficult and seeing what happened to Hamlin this year, it will be very difficult to muster that effort again. Keep an eye on Edwards next year. * First time the title's champion was also the winner of the race meaning the winner was not overshadowed by the champion, also the first championship clinched at Homestead, but the 1992 Cup title was decided at Atlanta. * One more thing II, WINS COUNT OVER CONSISTENCY ANY DAY!! That's the only argument I need. 76. Sean posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alan Kulwicki won the greatest championship battle in history. No way a tie after ten races is more impressive than a ten-point gap over 29 races. I'll grant that it was probably the best title battle since then. 77. Sean posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First time the title's champion was also the winner of the race meaning the winner was not overshadowed by the champion, also the first championship clinched at Homestead, but the 1992 Cup title was decided at Atlanta." No, several other champions won in the final race, most recently Jeff Gordon in 1998. "One more thing II, WINS COUNT OVER CONSISTENCY ANY DAY!! That's the only argument I need." That was just a quirk in this season and in 2007 because Stewart and Johnson won the most races in the chase. In general, this points system does not reflect winning being more important than consistency. 78. Mr X posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me its the best points battle ever over the most meaningless championship ever. When you can run that bad for 26 races, recieve what is essentially a bailout, and comeback to win the title, it proves what a joke the chase is. However this was by far the best chase yet. I want to be the first to say this, GOODBYE TO BRIAN VICKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 79. H8R posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best title battle of my life (I wasn't around for 1992 so sorry to all you people that think that was better. I don't have an opinion). Never would've thought Stewart and Edwards would be so good over the last few races and make it that close. I feel honored to get to see this spectacular season. Congrats to Tony Stewart on an amazing season and on being one of the greatest drivers ever (and for tying Bill Elliott in wins!) 80. H8R posted: 11.20.2011 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "GOODBYE TO BRIAN VICKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's about time. 81. Ryan posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct me if I'm wrong but I actually think Carl Edwards had the best ever average finish during the Chase... and didn't win, WOW... BTW, Tony Stewart passed 118 cars today... 1992 should never ever be overshadowed, but this title run where guys prepare for the last 10 races instead of doing it the old way was very impressive. Incredilble finish to the race and standings! If you didn't like the racing today then you're not a race fan. Great battle between the two 82. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Active Drivers "Full Season (Non-Chase) Points Championships" Jeff Gordon - 6 Terry Labonte - 2 Tony Stewart - 2 Jimmie Johnson - 2 Carl Edwards - 2 Bobby Labonte - 1 Bill Elliott - 1 Matt Kenseth - 1 Kevin Harvick - 1 83. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congratulations Tony Stewart!! AWESOME race. 84. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, although you are right in saying that Tony Stewart is not the first champion to win the final racer, but he is the first that the champion HAD TO WIN the final race to win the championship, and did so. But I'm torn, because Edwards was the best throughout the ENITRE season, meaning the Chase has robbed yet another driver of the title, but I will also say, as one of the biggest anti-Chase guys, that the Chase did EXACTLY what NASCAR inteded for, and that's to provide drana until the end. Of course, rain [three cautions and one red flag for about 1 hr., 15 min. for rain] and the specter of fuel mileage simply added to that. 85. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting: 11th and 12th? Busch and Busch. 86. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ that's in points, BTW. And JJ? 6th. 87. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AMAZING. AMAAAAAAZING. Race, title hunt and season. I love it 88. H8R posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #85, I get to watch a banquet without a Busch in it? Awesome. 89. Daniel posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This season has proven what a damn joke this chase is. There's a reason I never watch the final ten cup races of the year. 90. Jon posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so damn sick and tired of "the chase robbed him" etc comments. HE KNEW WHAT HE HAD TO DO! for god's sake, this is the dumbest statement any nascar fan can EVER make about a race. congrats to tony! also, to the comment "why isn't this a 500 mile race" i was wondering why it wasn't a 300 mile (or less) race. holy lord. 91. Talk4Tar posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ridiculously glad Carl Edwards did not win the Championship. 92. Sebastien posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Epic championship clinch, glad I witnessed it live ! 93. JJSucks posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I accept the fact that Tony took advantage of the Chase, but in my opinion Carl Edwards was the real champion. 94. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #32 sponsor: Green Smoke (same as Bell's races in the #50 with this sponsor) #9 sponsor: Stanley / DeWalt Tools (same for all races this year except Kentucky, Atlanta, and fall Charlotte) #87 sponsor: needs the space between "AM" and "FM". 95. Greg Gruver posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great race today and nite. Tony did what he had to do and did it. He must have passed 100 cars to win the race. I was so worried that ESPN would just keep the cameras on the 14 and 99 and not the race lead, But the 14 and 99 were the stories of the race. Good telecast by ESPN, ALan, Dale, and Andy are the best right now. Don't worry Carl fans, he will still be tough next year. 96. potatosalad48 posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart is possibly the greatest driver I've seen drive in NASCAR. He deserved this and so did the 14 team. 97. 1995z71 posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the only time EVER the chase actually made me want to watch the final race of the season. Im a chase-hater, (Im old-school). but man what an amazing finish to the season. Its sad to see Carl Edwards lose the championship in a tie, but glad a Chevy won again. Congrats Stewart 98. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this the best championship battle during the chase era. That is the only way I could say it because without the chase, this exciting battle wouldn't happen. I think championship isn't tainted though. All the competitors know the rules for the Chase and the Championship. What this championship did though is forcing teams to think twice about being conservative during the first 26 races a season for winning a championship if it does down to a tie. I said that because Nascar had rules if points were tied for the championship for a very long despite not being used in cup before now. All the credit goes to the Stewart and the 14 team. Stewart is the first cup driver to a win a cup championship at least 40 years old in the year he won the Championship since Dale Jarrett did in 1999. Tony Stewart is in elite company for championships, but I rather not discuss if he is a legend or not because he is still in his prime as a driver. Cup drivers have been in their prime well into their 40's and won cup championships in their 40's including Bobby Allison being the oldest cup champion ever at almost 46 years old. That means Stewart still has prime years left and it is tougher to judge when a driver's prime ends now because Nascar is safer now than it was when Stewart was a rookie in 1999. I am saying that I was at the Milwaukee Mile on the day that Jeff Krogh suffered head injury that ended his racing career and that happened in 1999. Cup drivers in the past had their prime cut short of injury or haven't been the same driver. What I am basically saying it is more likely for a driver being in their prime at the age 50 including Tony Stewart than it was 10 years ago. 99. Evan posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #77 Right, I stand corrected. I guess I meant the new system not the old system, still I don't think a win meant more, and what was on the line, after all, Jeff had already clinched his back in 1998 and I loved that moment, probably the best moment I ever witnessed. Never saw a win mean more than that performance, there at least not in my lifetime. It'll never top what Jeff did in 1998 but what Tony Stewart did THIS year was impressive. 100. joey2448 posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man I can't believe Tony Stewart won the title after running as poor as they were during the regular season. Seriously only 9 top-fives in a season??? I really wanted Carl to win this one, but Tony definitely deserves it because he owned everyone in the Chase. I've never seen two drivers go head-to-head like they did in the final few races. Just an incredible battle all the way to the wire....and a tie for the title, to top it off! 101. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2011 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Not as good as '92, but I think it is second. Seeing the top guys battle for the title by battling for the win both times. Plus both would be remembered differently had the participants not come back to life in the end. I also would like to say I don't want to hear any "he only won because of the cha$e" garbage. Everyone knew how the champ would be determined. Anyone who argues Carl should be this year's champ needs to also acknowledge that, under the 1973 points system, Ted Musgrave is your 1992 Winston Cup champ. 102. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "so damn sick and tired of "the chase robbed him" etc comments. HE KNEW WHAT HE HAD TO DO! for god's sake, this is the dumbest statement any nascar fan can EVER make about a race." NASCAR "fans" make dumb statements everyday, including being negative when "we all" should grateful for a fantastic season, so many different winniner (including first time winners), racing was excellent (it was, IT WAS). And a super season finale but sadly, "fans" have to be negative about everything. BTW does anybody think that they Jimmie Johnson run started after Smokes 2nd and will end after Smokes 3rd? 103. Lordlowe posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF I agree with you the right guy won the championship this season. 104. Evan posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, I'm reading something about Michelle Obama and Jill Biden there and getting booed heavily, purely disrespectful to the first ladies. I take nothing away from what Carl Edwards did, he was statwise the best all year, and deservedly so. Also, I would NOT say Goodbye to Brian Vickers just yet...he may end up being back down in the lower series like Nationwide or Trucks or if Red Bull finds a buyer within now and next year. He ain't done yet. 105. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this can be said for sure: Smoke willed that car to the win and championship today. Luck has been a virtue this year for pretty much every driver, and it played a part in Tony's day as well when he had that damage to his front early in the race, then he caught that caution right after taking a gamble then pitting, allowing him to stay on the track for the rest of the race. I'm telling you, he wanted that championship REALLY BAD. That 3-wide pass he made under Keselowski and KyBusch is exactly what a diehard racer who wants the title would have done. Now as far as where this championship battle ranks in NASCAR history, I'd definitely put it in the top 3. 1992 is hard to overshadow for two reasons: That battle was decided over 29 races while this year's was decided over 10, so for '92 to come down to 5 points was more impressive to me. Secondly, that championship was won by the basis of Alan Kulwicki leading ONE MORE LAP than Bill Elliott due to he and Paul Andrews stretching out their fuel while this year's was decided by Tony's other 4 wins. I'd probably rank this year's title fight as a tie with 2004 in second. While more people were in mathematical contention in '04, you still didn't know who was going to win it until the last lap was over because the points were that close. Same deal with Tony and Carl this year. And look, I'm also one of those that is glad Carl didn't win the championship, but it's not like NASCAR came up to the drivers mid-season and told them, "We're implementing a 10 race chase this year, so throw away whatever strategy you've been using so far". Still, I have to admit that the consistency he showed this season deserves to be rewarded somehow. Like I jokingly said last week, they should award Carl for consistency over the basis of 36 races, and give Tony the award for best Jimmie Johnson imitation. Oh yeah, and Jimmie DID NOT WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP! YES!! 106. Tony Stewart posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Told you. 107. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Potatosalad48, obviously you're a relatively new fan that never saw the greats of past generations race. Stewart is a great driver, and his run to the championship is remarkable in a year of great comebacks, which I'll mention later. But obviously you never guys like Earnhardt, Petty, Pearson, Yarborough, Allison, and Waltrip race in their prime. [For the record, neither did I, with the exception of Earnhardt, but I have seen old races with the other legends when they were in their prime, and I rate EVERY one of them ahead of Stewart.] In fact, I only rate Stewart the THIRD-best of this generation in NASCAR, behind Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, who towers over everyone else in the last 20 years, including Johnson and Stewart. Stewart joins the three-time champions club, but his overall record is still the leanest of the group, having NEVER won four of the five biggest races on the circuit even once [three of the four biggest the old-timers raced in]. I will NEVER consider Stewart to be in the highest echelon of drivers until he wins at least two of the three biggest races he hasn't yet won. Those races, of course, being the Daytona 500, the Southern 500, or the Coca-Cola 600. And speaking of the Daytona 500, do you think Jack Roush is upset at Trevor Bayne now for not allowing Carl Edwards to pass him on the final straightaway of this year's race, because if he had, Edwards would be celebrating the championship right now. I think he is, and I look for Bayne to be replaced, for sure in the Wood Brothers' car, possibly because of that alone, as Bayne not only deprived Roush of a Daytona 500 win, but that may also have now deprived Roush of the championship with Edwards. And Bayne, like Edwards, drives for Roush, though he technically wasn't on that day. [And it was Bayne, not Edwards that clinched the manufacturer's title in the Nationwide Series, something that Roush wanted to do with Edwards, not Bayne, regardless of what anyone else says.] Who knows, Roush might now take some support away from the Wood Brothers for Bayne's win over Edwards in the Daytona 500. Now for the great comebacks in sports this year, here are a few: -Tony Stewart winning half the races in the Chase to come from nowhere to win his third NASCAR championship. -The St. Louis Cardinals coming from 9 or 10 GB the Atlanta Braves to win a wild card berth in the playoffs, then being down to their final strike in the World Series twice, yet still winning their 11th World Series title. -The Dallas Mavericks coming from one game and 15 points behind in the fourth quarter of game 2 of the NBA Finals to stun the Miami Heat in six games to win their first NBA Championship. -South African Charl Schwartzel becoming the first player ever to birdie the final FOUR holes to win the Masters, or for what I know, any major professional golf championshbip. -Dan Wheldon coming from out of a ride to win his second Indianapolis 500, though he had a LOT of help in doing so. If there were any more amazing comebacks in this year of comebacks, feel free to mention them. 108. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCRandPenskeGuy, you were referring to Alan Kulwicki's stretching his fuel mileage to win the 1992 championship over Bill Elliott by leading one more lap in that race. Let's not forget the role Terry Labonte, who had been fired from Junior Johnson's team in 1989, played in that, as he led the two laps immediately after Kulwicki stopped, and Elliott lost the title by those two laps. Elliott was, of course, driving for Johnson that year. Had Kulwicki's stop immediately given the lead to Elliott, Elliott would've ked one more lap, and won the title the same way that Stewart did today, by a tiebreaker. And Kulwicki beat Elliott in 1992 by 10 points, not five. 109. The Silver Fox posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was the greatest drive I've ever seen, and I've been watching racing for 28 years. Haven't always been a big Stewart fan, but that was impressive. I'm a fan now. It's not every day that you watch a driver move from the category of "great" to "legend". Tony Stewart is now a legend. Yarborough, Pearson, Waltrip, Petty..... Stewart. You just have to accept that now. It's a fact. Edwards impressed me too. I see a championship or two in his future. Being able to keep his cool and drive like that will win a title every other year, just not the year that a living legend decides that he's going to will a car into victory lane, NO MATTER WHAT. Honestly, I haven't seen that much determination in ANY sport in a long time. It's refreshing, and exciting to watch it live. What a great end to the season. 110. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart joins the three-time champions club, but his overall record is still the leanest of the group, having NEVER won four of the five biggest races on the circuit even once [three of the four biggest the old-timers raced in]. I will NEVER consider Stewart to be in the highest echelon of drivers until he wins at least two of the three biggest races he hasn't yet won." This, folks, is what's known as "being stupid". Tony Stewart isn't in the highest echelon of drivers? And what, Kevin Harvick is? Matt Kenseth is? You pathetically cling to these "crown jewel" races like it's a life-raft stuck in a raging river. Tony Stewart is safely in the highest echelon of drivers. Not just for NASCAR, but for the entire sport of auto racing in the United States. 111. joey2448 posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reminds me of the Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson duel in 2007...Jeff should've won that year, but Jimmie killed him in the end with four consecutive wins. 112. irony posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stewart is the right champion. That was the best Chase performance ever, right ahead of JJ's big comeback in 2006 or 2007. JJ's top 5 streak ends with his championship streak. There's still one streak going, JJ and Tony are the only champions since 2004 when Kurt won the first Chase. I don't like the Chase but this one was epic. No matter what happened tonight, Smokefan would still find a way to whine about race fans, and annoy.mous would find a way to whine about DSFF. It's both funny and pathetic. 113. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, I made a mistake. cjs is correct in pointing out that Kulwicki beat Elliott by 10 points in '92. But my original point about it being impressive that a 29 race stretch came down to that margin remains. 114. Foyt 14 posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Potatosalad48, obviously you're a relatively new fan that never saw the greats of past generations race. Stewart is a great driver, and his run to the championship is remarkable in a year of great comebacks, which I'll mention later. But obviously you never guys like Earnhardt, Petty, Pearson, Yarborough, Allison, and Waltrip race in their prime. [For the record, neither did I, with the exception of Earnhardt, but I have seen old races with the other legends when they were in their prime, and I rate EVERY one of them ahead of Stewart.] In fact, I only rate Stewart the THIRD-best of this generation in NASCAR, behind Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon, who towers over everyone else in the last 20 years, including Johnson and Stewart. Stewart joins the three-time champions club, but his overall record is still the leanest of the group, having NEVER won four of the five biggest races on the circuit even once [three of the four biggest the old-timers raced in]. I will NEVER consider Stewart to be in the highest echelon of drivers until he wins at least two of the three biggest races he hasn't yet won. Those races, of course, being the Daytona 500, the Southern 500, or the Coca-Cola 600." Are you joking? Does Stewart's versatility account for nothing? And the guy has won just about everything you can at Daytona, except the 500. He's won at least 15 other races at the track in various disciplines. And being a multiple winner at Indy makes anyone a legend in my book. The guy has made his mark at the two most famous speedways in the country, I don't care what you say. Stewart is the closest thing to ole' AJ that we have these days, and as you'd except, I've been a Stewart fan for a long time. I've been watching Stewart ever since he won the Hut Hundred in 95, because I was there. I was there when he qualified for the Indy 500 in 96. I watched him blow away the field only to lose an engine in a race he would have otherwise run away with. I've been watching Stewart for a long time, and the guy can wheel a car as good as I've seen, and just to give you an idea of who I've seen, I've been to every single Indy 500 since 1977, when I had the privilege to witness the final 500 victory of the great AJ Foyt. I've been to every Brickyard 400 they've every run. I even went to the Grand Prix race they had at Indy there for a few years. I've seen some great drivers drive past those hallowed bricks at the track that's like a second home to me, and I'd rate very few of them above Tony Stewart. As far as versatility goes, for me it's Foyt-Andretti-Stewart. And you don't win as many races as they do, in as many different cars, without being one of the best drivers of all time. Those 3 guys are pure wheelmen, and I'd put the 3 of them as a team up against any other 3 drivers in the world, in a competition measuring ability in a variety of racing vehicles. And if that aint upper-echelon, I sure as hell don't know what is. 115. Randy posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well... there goes the season. My favorite race of the year was was the Coca-Cola 600 at Charlotte. NASCAR needed a good race that day after the Indy 500 and Monaco on the same day... and they got it. What and ending! 116. Randy posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The clock is ticking... How to stop the two car Tango before the 2012 Daytona 500! 117. BON GORDON posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know what its like to feel "screwed" being a Jeff Gordon fan (2004, 2007) but im sorry guys Tony Stewart is the Champion. There have been so many different point standings since 1948. NASCAR doesnt add points from all 36 races like they used to. And every driver would drive differently anyway under the 1975-2003 points system. While im mad that Gordon lost i never felt that he got it taken away. Carl had the opportunity to win the championship and just got beat. Get over it and accept it. Theres other things in the world and country to complain about that are much more important. 118. potatosalad48 posted: 11.20.2011 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ post 107: I've only been a fan since 2003, so no I didn't see Waltrip, Petty, Pearson or Earnhardt in their prime, though I wish I could have. Based on my personal experience, Tony Stewart is the best I've seen. 119. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And yes, Tony is officially a living legend. 1995 Subaru, are you gonna change your name to SmokeFan11?" LOL, nope, my current name stay until i get sick of seeing it on here. Plus it a little tribute to a certain driver (who isn't with us anymore) who won the 1995 WRC title driving said car that is my name. 120. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #30 'sponsor': Inception Motorsports 121. 18fan posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It wasn't noted until about halfway through the race that Kyle was running a TRD engine in this race to get a head start on next year in terms of Kyle's feel of the differences of the car between the JGR engines and the TRD engines. Their inexperience with that engine package showed because their setup seemed to be one that would fit the JGR engine but not the TRD engine. 122. H8R posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #118, Aren't you a Jimmie Johnson fan? If so, I find it amazing that a JJ fan would consider Stewart to be better. Regardless, Stewart is one of the top drivers all-time, no matter what certain people say. He wins no matter what car he drives, and taken a championship in multiple different points systems (and let's not forget he has an IndyCar championship as well, as irrelevant as that may be to his NASCAR status). He has never had a winless season, and has been strong at almost every different race track. And for what some people here have been saying about Stewart not many winning big races... he's come very close to winning the Daytona 500, and he came within 3 laps of winning the 2008 Coca-Cola 600 before he blew a tire. And he's won at Indy multiple times. So Stewart does well in big races too. He is a legend, like it or not, and he just finished off one of the best and most exciting 10 race runs we will ever see. 123. DTroppens posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Stewart started became a driver/owner, I wondered if he would ever get to this level again. He answered those questions immediately. And now he's a champion again, in a race that he showed tons of guts and talent. Mark me as one of those impressed. 124. Floridaman1985 posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was one hell of a race and Chase! Congrats to Stewart. 125. 12345Dude posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I might like the idea *gasp* of the chase. I can't believe I'm saying that. But we never would of seen that under the old system. 126. 12345Dude posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) IDK I'm really tired, maybe my brain is playing tricks on me. But that was amazing. I'm happy Edwards didn't win. And good for Stewart. Everyone in the media was talking about "the new Kyle Busch" earlier this year, they should be talking about the new Tony Stewart. And him winning it with his own team makes it more special. But if there would of been atleast one hendrick team in the hunt (if not 2-3) he wouldn't of gotten the same equipment from Hendrick. Count on that. 127. Eric posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with Foyt 14 about Tony Stewart. The first time I saw Tony Stewart race was in the Indy Racing League back in 1996. I do watch different type of auto racing.Stewart is a throwback in racing in different racing series. Tony Stewart back in May 2008 was on ESPN's top 25 drivers of all time in Auto Racing with him being ranked 16th. That meant Stewart was head of Bobby Unser, Alain Prost, Emerson Fittipaldi, and Darrell Waltrip from 20 to 16 on the list. That was based 19 voters ESPN had. Those 19 voters were Kenny Bernstein,Terry Blount, Tim Brewer, K. Lee Davis, Mike Dunn, Ray Evernham, A.J. Foyt, Scott Goodyear, Jeff Gordon, Mike Harris, Dale Jarrett, Dan Knutson, Ryan McGee, Juan Pablo Montoya, John Oreovicz, Richard Petty, Marty Reid, Tony Stewart and Rusty Wallace. A good amount the voters I mentioned have been involved racing as drivers, owners, or crew chiefs. That meant the list had credibility. The fact Tony Stewart was ranked 16th of all time showed Tony Stewart already was considered one of the greatest drivers in auto racing history by his peers. Based on what Tony Stewart did since May 2008 probably would have improved his ranking if a vote was taken today and more people people would say Stewart is one of the greatest drivers of all time in all auto racing. The drivers ahead of Tony Stewart back in May 2008 when this list was make were: Al Unser, Cale Yarborough, Jackie Stewart, John Force, Rick Mears, Jeff Gordon, Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, David Pearson, Richard Petty, Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Mario Andretti, and A.J. Foyt. The reason Jimmie Johnson wasn't on the list at the time was the fact he was only a 2 time champion at the time the list was made in May 2008. proof of 2008 top 25 drivers of all time list: http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/columns/story?columnist=blount_terry&id=3407489 128. 00andJoe posted: 11.20.2011 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude - Given that JJ and Gordon were up in the mix at the start of the Chase, and Stewart won the first two Chase races... 129. I Love Japan posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great race and great conclusion to a decent season. I met Tony when I was younger so It's cool to see him win. Anways I'm on here tonight to apologize for my atiitude. I've been a tool on this board and an overbearing egotisitcal blowhard. For that, I apolgize. I apologize for being insulting to people and I apologize for acting like I own this place. If I was a NASCAR driver, i would be the most hated guy in the series. I apologize for my attitude and promise to improve. With that said, This race should be one of the Top 25 races in history. Just my opinion. How neat was it to see the 2 guys battling for the championship have to win the race to get the Title and have to beat each other to win it? Couldn't ask for better. Great ending and congrats to Tony! 130. Alex posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone think Homestead deserves a second date? The racing today was great, but it's usually overshowded by the Championship battle. I'd love to see Homestead replace a Michigan, Pocono, Loudon, or Kansas, just a thought. 131. Brad24 posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) First off, congrats to Smoke for winning Cup title #3. It was a very entertaining Chase this year and in my opinion, the best one since it's inception. This year's Chase showed how important winning truly is. Several milestones were set tonight: -Tony Stewart becomes the first owner-driver to win the title since Alan Kulwicki in 1992. -Stewart becomes the first driver to enter the Chase winless and win the title. -With this championship, Tony is STILL the last driver not named Jimmie Johnson to win the title. -Tony also clinches the most wins of 2011 with 5, all in the Chase. Impressive. -Tony's 3 titles have different names: Winston, Nextel, and Sprint. -This will also be the first time that Jimmie Johnson will not finish in the top 5 in points. -One random note, Tony won the Cup with Edwards' old sponsor, Office Depot. Lasts: -Last race for the following drivers with their current teams I parenthesis is their new/potential rides for 2012: Drivers: #00 David Reutimann with MWR. #33 Clint Bowyer with RCR (Moving to MWR #15 in 2012.) #4 Kasey Kahne with Red Bull (Moving to HMS #5 in 2012.) #83 Brian Vickers most likely last with Red Bull. #6 David Ragan with Roush (Possibly if sponsorship can't be found.) #5 Mark Martin with Hendrick (Moving to MWR #00 for partial schedule in 2012.) Crew Chiefs: Possible final race for Darian Grubb as crew chief for Stewart (Could be promoted to competition director at SHR, or could be going back to HMS to c.c the #48.) Possible final race for Steve Addington as c.c. for Kurt Busch (Could become Stewart's new c.c. if Grubb leaves/gets promoted) Possible final race for Chad Knaus (Whoda thunk it?) with Jimmie Johnson. (Possible promotion to competition director at HMS, or taking a job with NASCAR.) From what I've read, possible big time shake up at RCR among the crew members. It's been one crazy season. Hope everyone has a blessed holiday season. See you in Daytona! 132. Bronco posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) NASCAR sure got what they wanted tonight. Let's reset the points to allow some of the other drivers to catch up in the championship battle, give it fancy name and sell it to the fans! Yay for manufactured drama! Tony only performed like a champion in the final six weeks of the season, leading the most laps at Talladega, Texas and Phoenix and winning Martinsville, Texas and Homestead. The other 30 weeks he was pretty much at the same level as Newman. As far as I'm concerned, Carl becomes a two time victim of the chase, yet again. He joins Jeff Gordon and Kevin Harvick in that club. And about Carl, the man is pure class. I don't understand how anyone can like the guy. He is by far the best ambassador for NASCAR - he has the best blend of driving talent, charisma and fan friendliness, marketability, and is very articulate. It pains me to see this, but so far Carl seems to have become this generation's version of Mark Martin. He has three 2nd place finishes in Cup, four in Nationwide, and has finished second in the major races (Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Darlington 500) and second to guys like Stenhouse and Bayne when they scored their first wins. But long as Roush can provide Carl with top notch cars, he'll be a force to be reckoned with for a long time to come and will eventually earn his share of championships. Dale Jr earns his best ever finish at Homestead after coming to this track since 2000. His previous best finish here was in his first back in 2000 (13t) and his best finish in the #88 was 27th last year. He ended the chase in 7th, which is much better than most people had predicted, making this his first official top 10 points finish driving the #88. Unfortunately he went winless for the third straight season, despite coming close to wins at Martinsville and Charlotte. He also led his fewest total laps in a full Cup season, at just 52, which is worse than even 2009. However he was one of the most consistent drivers the whole season which is what got him to 7th. JJ's 5 year reign as champion came to an unceremonious end when he finished six laps down after changing a carburetor and another spin. This year is his worst in many ways - fewest wins, no poles, and worst chase finishing position. In terms of overall points, this year would mark 10 consecutive years of finishing in the top 5 in points. After starting the chase as the top seed, Kyle Busch finishes last not only due to him being parked for Texas, but awful luck from Talladega to Phoenix. Since he started driving the #18 he has always scored multiple wins in a season, but none after late August, led well over 1000 laps in each of those seasons, but has never been a factor in the championship and has finished between 8th-13th officially. 133. Pat Bateman posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "THIS IS THE WORST CHAMPIONSHIP EVER CARL EDWARDS IS THE REAL CHAMAPION HE EDID NOT CHEET LIKE FAT BOY TONY STUART HE IS A CHEATER AND SO IS RICK HENDRICK AND GENE HASS THEY SHOUL STILL BE IN JAIL. SCREW CHEVY, NOT A REAL AMERICAN MANUFACTURER FORD AND TEA PARTY FOREVER!!!!" Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is going to take you seriously with illiterate BS like that. 134. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Anonymous [110], I now rate him as the best of the second-echelon drivers of all-time, which would be about eighth, ninth, or tenth. Among the drivers that have won three or more titles, his is the leanest record, but that is not to say that his record is not impressive. It is, but his 44 wins are currently 10 fewer than any other driver with three or more titles, though that number will surely decrease next year, and one day, he'll at least pass Lee Petty, who at 54 wins, had the fewest until tonight among the three-time champions. But he simply doesn't rank in that first echelon yet because he doesn't have the big wins those others have. That isn't to say that he won't, but he doesn't have them right now. And as Foyt 14 says in post 114, he may be the most versatile driver in the past 30 years, as his record on all types of tracks shows, which is why I rank him no worse than third, if not second among this generation of NASCAR stars, though Jeff Gordon still usurps all of this generation's drivers with his unmatched record of excellence on all types of tracks during his career, as he's going to set all the modern records, some of which he's already reset [wins, top five finishes, and pole positions]. In fact, Stewart's 44 wins is still barely more than half of Gordon's total, though he has been racing in Cup for six fewer years. But since Stewart moved to Cup, he and Gordon have almost the identical win total [Stewart overtook Gordon for the first time tonight, 44-43 in that regard]. Stewart already ranked as one of the all-time greats in my mind, even before this unprecedented rush to the championship, which only raised him more. But for him to truly compare with the likes of Petty, Allison, Gordon, Earnhardt, Yarborough, Waltrip, and Pearson, who are, in that order, my top seven NASCAR drivers of all-time, he must start to collect to the marquee wins that all of those drivers have, or his undoubtedly great career will have empty spots on it. Now, remember that David Pearson, Dale Earnhardt and Darrell Waltrip won a total of 13 championships before either ever won the Daytona 500 [Pearson's Daytona 500 win was his 88th, Earnhardt's his 71st, and Waltrip's his 74th], and Darrell Waltrip never won the Southern 500 until his final victory in 1992, or that Cale Yarborough NEVER won the World 600 during his entire career. And as H8R accurately noted, Stewat came within four laps of winning both the Daytona 500 and the Coca-Cola 600 in 2008, losing the 600 due to a flat tire, but the plain truth is, he still hasn't won either race, nor has even been close to winning the Southern 500 at Darlington, the ultimate driver's track. That's a race that five of the top seven winners in NASCAR history won at least three times, with Allison winning four, Yarborough five, and Gordon six. I believe even Stewart would tell you that if he never wins at Darlington that his career would be incomplete, not to mention never winning the Daytona 500 or Coca-Cola 600. I believe Stewart WILL win the Daytona 500 eventually, as that race has a history of paying off great drivers who have to wait to win that race [Pearson, Allison, Buddy Baker, Waltrip, and Earnhardt all had to wait at least 15 tries to win that race and next year's Daytona 500 will be Stewart's 14th, which would be ironic if wins it next year, winning in his 14th start driving car no. 14], and I think, as often as Stewart has come close to winning the Coca-Cola 600, that he'll win that race at least once, as well [he's had chances to win that race at least four times]. As for the Southern 500, I don't know if he'll ever win that one, due to his relative discomfort about running as close to the wall as you must to succedd and win at Darlington. But regardless, Stewart now ranks in my top ten NASCAR drivers of all-time, not because of his three championships, but because of his versatility, and especially how he won the third one. He just doesn't rank in the first group of drivers due to his lack of big wins, as well as his relative lack of TOTAL wins [44, in comparison to 76, which is the LOWEST total by any driver in that top group]. At least, not yet. 135. irony posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does anyone think Homestead deserves a second date?" It's arguably the best track on the circuit right now. All three races this week were exceptional. Having one date makes a track more special. It could be argued either way, but I'd leave it at one. It would make a good week 2 venue if they do give it a second race. "And about Carl, the man is pure class." Disagree, but he make it a whole season without turning a car head-on into the wall or into oncoming traffic so maybe he's improving. 136. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hear RCR is about to have a vacancy on the #29 team? Darian Grubb, anybody? 137. Floridaman1985 posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't understand the whining about the Chase. Every other sport has an equivalent playoff or bowl system used to determine it's champion. I guess the NFL should just crown Green Bay now. Would you rather have the champion regularly clinching in the second to last race (or before) and rarely have a compelling fight to the end? 138. Bronco posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Darian Grubb wins a championship with the #14 team, and won't be the CC for that team next year. I don't know what Tony was thinking, but as far as I'm concerned I hope he never wins another race or championship for that underhanded move. No question that Tony would have never the kind of success over the past three years without someone like Darian being his CC. Prediction - Zippy reunites with Tony for next year, Ratcliff replaces Zippy, and Addington leaves the #22 and moves to the #42. Firing Brian Pattie was a dumb move. This is by far the most shocking dismissal of 2011, more so than Reutimann out of the #00 ride and Reed Sorenson out of the #32 ride. 139. hyperacti posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart: "Hmm, I think I want to win the championship this year..." WINS CHAMPIONSHIP. ..WHAT?! 140. hyperacti posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart: "All we have to do is go out and win the race..." WINS RACE. ...WHAT?! 141. hyperacti posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards: Starts chase with 1 victory over Tony Stewart, averages a 4.9 during chase. LOSES CHASE. WHAT?!?! 142. hyperacti posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards: Finishes 2nd in the last 3 races of the season. LOSES CHAMPIONSHIP OVER LAST 3 RACES OF SEASON WHAT?!??! 143. Mr X posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #136, Under the old system, drivers had to earn everything they got, and got to keep everything they earned. Under this system drivers above a certain point recieve a bailout with 10 to go. Tony's new shiny trophy says he is the 2011 champ, and he is under this pathetic system, however the 2011 NSCS season was 36 races long, from Daytona to Homestead. Was the 14 team the best team across all 36 races, no, they were terrible for the first 26. Tony's team was only the best in the final 10. The chase format aides weaker teams while hampering the better ones. The weaker teams fall behind for a reason, and definitely dont deserve a 2nd chance after being bailed out. Plus the Chase is way too open, 12 drivers is too many, guys that far back have no business fighting it out for the title. I have said this before, this is the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, the top division of the worlds most competitive racing series, we need to seperate the men from the boys here, the chase makes NASCAR look like an equal oppertunity series. In 1987 Dale Earnhardt locked up the championship simply by starting the AC-Delco 500 at Rockingham, the 27th race of the 29 race season, and to be honest Dale deserved to do so, given how much better the #3 car ran against the competition that year. 1975-1978, 1986, 1994, 1998-2001 were the same way. If we have two or more drivers who have equal seasons then we will have a tight points battle, like in 2002, 1997-1996, 1992, 1990-1988, 1984-1979. Personally I prefer actual drama to the manufactured stuff. The chase makes it possible for a guy who ran like crap relative to the best driver for 26 of the 36 race(>72%) to be bailed out, run a little better in just 10 of 36(<28%) races and sneak away with the title. I'm not saying that Carl was robbed, Carl was beaten, everyone knows how to fight for the title, however this method of fighting is bogus. 144. Rusty posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Amazing to think that the championship difference was.......ZERO points. Tony Stewart gets his 3rd championship based on having more wins. That is unbelievable IMO. This is one of the best seasons of NASCAR I can remember. For the last several years the sports has become too predictable but this season was just full of parity and suprises. It all kicked off with the ultimate shock of 20 year old Trevor Bayne winning the Daytona 500 in just his 2nd Cup start, then you have all the first time winners, the suprising second half surge of Brad Keselowski after it looked like he was headed for another terrible season, then of course this championship battle that finally didn't include Jimmie Johnson. Carl Edwards and the #99 team were the best team this season, they had a very Terry Labonte or Matt Kenseth like season. The only reason he didn't win the championship was because Tony Stewart caught extreme fire in the Chase, winning half of the races. It will be interesting to see if Carl will be able to overcome the post Championship loss disappointment that has haunted Jimmie Johnson's victims over the last 5 years including Carl himself. 145. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im going to ignore every single negative comment and just say whats on my mind while i soak in this incredible race. I am so glad that I get to see my favorite RACING (not necessarily Nascar itself)Driver win another championship. I was never a fan in 02, my first ever nascar race i watched in its entirety was the 03 race at watkins glen, from then on I was hooked, eventually ending up a Stewart fan in 05 after his awesome run of 5 wins in 7 races. At 40 years old stewart still races like a young gun, he has now proven he can still win. Stats off the top of my head: 5 Wins in a single chase eclipses Johnson's record set originally in 04 6.3 Avg. finish in the chase was actually worse than when he won his 05 championship. 13th straight year where stewart has at least 1 win. 9th driver to achieve a third championship. First time since 98 that a driver has won the final race and the championship. And correct me if im wrong here, but while everyone says Stewart is not Kulwicki (and I agree completely!) I have to ask, is this not the first time in the Modern era that a driver has won a championship WHILE owning (fully) a separate drivers car at the cup level? Simply amazing. Thank you Tony Stewart for carrying the State of Indiana in Pro Sports this year. 146. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correction: Stewart had an 8.7 avg finish in 2005, so 2011 was statistically better for stewart in the chase. 147. DTroppens posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Complaining who would've been the winner in previous formats is useless. The drivers enter the season understanding the system that is going to be used to determine the winner and compete with that format. With 10 races left, Tony Stewart wasn't even close to being the best car in the field. We all know that. But he made the chase and was outstanding during it, winning more chase races than anyone before him during one season. He earned the title. I understand under this or that system, Stewart doesn't win. The fact is, those aren't the systems used any more. And I don't look at 10 races as being a "lucky" champion. That's 10 races you better run well. Stewart did that and is the champion. 148. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So Darian Grubb wins a championship with the #14 team, and won't be the CC for that team next year. I don't know what Tony was thinking, but as far as I'm concerned I hope he never wins another race or championship for that underhanded move. No question that Tony would have never the kind of success over the past three years without someone like Darian being his CC." Oh boy, Bronco sure is on his period tonight. Guess it really sticks in your craw that Stewart won that title the way he did, huh? Oooooooh, you must be fuming right now. Edwards ran what was essentially the greatest Chase ever, probably good enough to win 49 of the next 50 championships, but he didn't win it all. He finished 2nd. 2nd, behind 3-time champ and now legend, Tony Stewart. And by the way, it's a little presumptuous to assume Tony Stewart only won these last few years because of Darian Grubb, considering he was a multi-time champion on a weaker team before he came to SHR. Gibbs has never been Hendrick, but he still won there. So when I look at a guy that has won championships, and dozens of races with multiple crew chiefs, I'm thinking it might be more about the driver than the guy on the box. Want to bet that he wins more races with whoever his next crew chief is? I'll take that bet, because you'll lose. 149. John Royal posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure, but possibly only race where Jimmie Johnson has lost to Geoffrey Bodine. 150. StewartSmokesEm posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the thing with Grubb leaving the team started a lot earlier in the season. Bristol was probably the tipping point, because that was one of the worst cars Stewart has ever had to drive. It was pathetic how bad they were at Bristol. And heading into the Chase, they looked like they were pretty average most everywhere else. The writing was on the wall by that point. But then Stewart went and won the first two Chase races, and that delayed the decision. But then the next 3 weeks, Stewart slid way back, and at Dover in particular, he wasn't getting very good cars. He went from having a 7 point lead in the standings, to being back 24 after Charlotte, seemingly a non-factor in the championship. And that's when the hammer came down. Grubb had very little room for error already, and a 31 point swing against Stewart, that at the time looked like it cost him a shot at the title, was the final straw. When you look at it like that, it makes a lot more sense. Of course, credit goes to Darian Grubb for not throwing in the towel, he and Stewart responded to adversity the way true champions do, and they won 3 of the next 5 races. I don't know where they go from here. Obviously the relationship isn't bad, I'm guessing it wasn't so much a "you're fired" moment between Stewart and Grubb, as it was a "well, Darian, I think we might go in another direction next season.... sorry man". If Grubb was "fired" he wouldn't have been on the box for those last 5 races, and there is no way that relationship would have lasted. That's why I think Grubb was probably just told that they weren't going to bring him back, and that's what motivated him during the final 5 races. He wasn't bitter, he had something to prove. And he sure did. I don't know what to feel, I'm still on such a high from the race that I can't sleep. Before the Chase, I didn't expect Grubb to make it to the end of the year, so this doesn't come as a surprise in some ways. But now you look at it, and can they move past the supposed "firing" and continue working together? Do they want to? These things I don't know. But they had one last brilliant shining moment together, that will likely define both of their careers, and that should probably be enough for them to remain friends at least. Grubb isn't done winning, wherever he goes, and Stewart isn't done winning, no matter who's calling the shots. 151. The Deuce posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) The racing Gods tried to say "No" by cursing Stewart with front end damage from random debris. His team tried to say "No" by choking on crucial pit stops, burying him back in the pack His crew chief tried to say "No" by forcing Stewart onto a risky strategy that rarely works. Carl Edwards tried to say "No" by winning the pole, leading the most laps, and finishing second. But then Tony Stewart said, "Oh, hell no" and went ahead and won the championship anyway. Screw the gods, screw the mistakes, screw the questionable calls, screw the guy who deserved the championship by laying down consistency like we've never seen. Tony wanted the title. And he just went out and took it, simple as that. See how easy it is guys? You want something, you take it. Congrats, Smoke. Way to win one for the ages. ...and thanks for keeping Carl away from the trophy. hehe. 152. Spen posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Royal: Bodine finished third in the '02 Daytona 500, behind Ward Burton and Elliott Sadler, so he certainly beat Johnson that race. 153. Mike posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #148: Nope. In the 2002 Daytona 500, Geoffrey finished 3rd and Jimmie was 15th. Oddly enough, this was the first time this season that Carl led the most laps in a race. 154. Spen posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF: "Anyone who argues Carl should be this year's champ needs to also acknowledge that, under the 1973 points system, Ted Musgrave is your 1992 Winston Cup champ." I guess you haven't looked at the Hooters 500 page recently. Schraderfan did the math, and found out that Harry Gant would have won the title under '73 rules. Musgrave would have moved into the top ten, though. By the way, for me, this championship fight reminded me most of 1979's. It all came down to two drivers, one in his prime who had done everything but win a title at that point, and a rejuvinated veteran who was running better than he had in years. DW came into the last race with an incredibly thin lead, and whoever finished ahead of the other would win the title. Plus, Petty's team was trying to play mind games with DW, and it worked to perfection. And just like in '79, I was cheering for the veteran as the lesser of two evils. But still, congrats to Tony. I'm glad I was wrong about this being Carl's year. This title does move him ahead of Bill Elliott, Rusty Wallace, Junior Johnson, Buck Baker, Ned Jarrett, and Herb Thomas in my book. Lee Petty's still debatable, but if he makes it to fifty wins, I'll give him the spot. He's still got a way's to go to catch Jimmie, and as that will be a moving target, I doubt he'll manage it. Still, ninth all-time is nothing to sneeze at. Anyone want to make predictions for next year? Here's how I think the season will go: Jimmie Johnson: Will win a sixth championship. Whenever we introduce something new on the cars, Hendrick jumps to an early lead. I honestly expect the Hendrick cars to have roughly fifteen wins combined. And when Hendrick's on top, Jimmie wins. Kasey Kahne: A Mark Martin '09 season. A bit of a slow start, but multiple wins, and a great charge in the chase to finish second. And just like Mark and Junior, his first year at Hendrick will be his best. Jeff Gordon: A few random wins in the regular season, and a chase apperance. Nothing special, though. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: Luck will start running out, and he'll probably miss the chase. Winless streak will continue. Tony Stewart: If he can keep his current frame of mind, he could get that 500 win. I don't expect him to repeat this year, though. Ryan Newman: Has quietly returned to respectability. Might have his first multi-win year since '05. Won't finish better than eighth in points, though. Carl Edwards: Roush can't string two good years together. I think he'll win at least twice, but I don't expect serious championship contention. Matt Kenseth: Hate to say it, but he'll probably miss the chase. This was Matt's last shot at becoming a two-time champ. By the time Roush gets their act together again, he'll have been fully pushed aside. Greg Biffle: Enjoy next year. It will be his last season in competitive equipment. Probably won't make the chase, unless he gets the wild card, and will be released early to make way for Stenhouse. David Ragan: Have fun fighting Casey Mears for 31st. That's the best-case scenario for him at TRG. Kyle Busch: A couple of short track wins, but it'll take most of the year for Gibbs to figure out the TRD engines, and by that point, Kyle's mind will be out of the game. Expect a meltdown. Denny Hamlin: If they change crew chiefs, he might have a better year. He may come alive at chase time. Joey Logano: Bye, bye Joey. Try to not look like a total embarassment. Kevin Harvick: May join the twenty-win club. My pick for third in points. Jeff Burton: Seems to be setting up for one final chase run. Hopefully gets one more win. I want to see one last Kim Burton reaction. Paul Menard: Might be a little higher in points, but other than that, no real improvment. Clint Bowyer: In the hunt for a top-20 point finish, with a couple of flashes here and there. Very similar to Truex's season, I think. Gibbs' switch to TRD may improve TRD's engines in the long run, so he might not be as totally lost as we all think, but it'll still be a major step-down. Kurt Busch: Very iffy. May or may not make the chase. If he does make it, I'd expect it to be on a wild card. Brad Keselowski: Makes the chase by being tenth or better by race 26. Not as flashy as this year, but may snag a win or two. A.J. Allmendinger: Finally gets his first career win. Too low in points to be taken seriously for wild card contention. Marcos Ambrose: Might win one of the road courses, but I'm not expecting a great year. Juan Pablo Montoya: May contend for a chase spot, but will likely miss. Jamie McMurray: Well, he can't run any worse, can he? A plate win and borderline top-20. Martin Truex, Jr.: Outside the top-20, as he gets moved to second driver status. Mark Martin: May equal Reutimann's top ten output. That's it. Bobby Labonte: Moves up a bit by virtue of having fewer cars going the distance. Brian Vickers: TTFN. Will have a lackluster year at Turner. Regan Smith: Probably won't get a second (third!) win, but may contend for a top-20 points finish. David Gilliland: Talledega, FRM's first win. Moves into the top thirty in owner points. The #38: Kvapil will get booted in favor of Yeley. Neither will do anything special. Wood Brothers: Stenhouse gets the ride over Bayne. Not expecting any miracles here. The #37: Trevor Bayne's new home, if he stays with RFR. Casey Mears: The switch to Dodge may work for them. By which I mean, contending for 29th. Landon Cassil: Will get fired by Finch. No idea who'll replace him. Dave Blaney: Probably going to retire after next year. I hope he pulls off a Talledega miracle, but I don't expect it. Danica Patrick: The start-and-parkers will love her. She'll give them plenty of TV time while she's running 40th. Joe Nemechek: I have nothing but gut feeling to base this on, but I think Joe might be retiring. If so, Kevin Conway will likely replace him. Andy Lally: Congrats on having more top 25 finishes than our last rookie of the year. Thanks for playing. Now go back to sports cars and give Scott Pruett a run for his money. Grant Enfinger: The second coming of Norm Benning. But a good shot at winning ROTY. If he can make the field. 155. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, the Chase has almost never given the title to the guy who was greatest over 36 (and in some cases would have clinched early without the Chase), but for once I am on DSFF's side. For crying out loud, just live with it at this point. We can't change it at this point because of NASCAR's desire for what I call "fahns." But at this point, despite title numbers, should we really be discussing if Tony is the most talented driver in NASCAR right now. How many times does a driver win 5 out of 10 races and the title on raw talent despite severely inferior equipment? To EDWARDSARMY: There is room for irascible comments on these forum, but not irrational comments. State your opinion, but don't be a troll. 156. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Giving bonus points at the start of the Chase still strikes me as weird. To me, giving bonus points for wins would be the same mentality of the NFL giving a 2 touchdown lead for a team at the kickoff in a playoff game based on regular season win total (last year's Patriots are leading 28-0 at opening kickoff?). Spen: I really think it stinks for Nemechek. For the last 20 years, he has been ridiculous in how far he has overachieved in turd cars. 157. Flywheel posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nico, I equate it to home field advantage, myself. 158. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Flywheel: Good point. 159. nascar_vd posted: 11.21.2011 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) SIMPLY A GREAT RACE !!!! Congratulation Tony Stewart and all the SHR team !! 160. Frank posted: 11.21.2011 - 8:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anybody mention that Tony Stewart is now 3-0 when he goes to final race with a shot to win the Championship, as Edwards now is 0-3? Beauty of numbers simply blows my mind. But after the steam will go away we should accept that race itself was good but way not great - yep, tons of pressure watching this live from 30 to go but really the only way Carl could get Tony - get a caution. So 1992 and 2004 finals still stands as the best. And 1992 probably will be greatest for ever because it's hard to believe that NASCAR will cancel Chase, double-file restarts and other recently introduced shit. 161. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 9:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's what I think would be a better idea for seeding drivers in the Chase, which would make it riskier for teams to experiment prior to the Chase. first, give everyone 2000 points, if you're going to use this system, which still needs tweaking to benefit those running up front more. After giving the 12 drivers 2000 points each, put weight into where the drivers stand at the end of the 26th race, say, three points per position, which would give the points leader 33 more points than the guy in 12th. Then add five more points for each win. In that scenario, Carl Edwards would have started the Chase this year 26 points, more than half a race, ahead of Stewart, which would have rewarded what he did during the first 26 races. Now he still wouldn't have been the points leader when the Chase started [in fact, he might have been further behind Harvick and Kyle Busch], but he would have been rewarded for his consistent excellence during the first 26 races, in comparison to Stewart. Then there's the way finishing up front isn't weighted enough. The way it should be is that, 11th through last is fine just the way it is, but the points spread for finishing sixth through tenth should be two per position, second though fifth should be three per position, and first to second would be five points, with the bonus points staying as they are. That would give greater incentive to running harder for every one of the top ten positions, which there currently isn't. No bonus points for the pole, because that would undo what the one engine per weekend rule was designed to do, which is to elimiate special qualifying engines and engine setups. And Spen, some of your 2012 predictions are just plain dumb. Trevor Bayne in a start-and-park? Do you seriously think Roush is going to allow that? I don't think so. I actually think if he's not in the Wood Brothers car next year, that he'll be in the no. 6 for selected races [Daytona, Indy, Darlington, Charlotte, All-Star, Bud Shootout, etc.] as Roush isn't going to completely shut that team down. Frankly, Stenhouse in the 21 car would also be a bad fit, since he drives more on the edge, something the Wood Brothers have traditionally NOT liked in their drivers. Just look at the drivers that have driven for them, and you'll see that they generally like drivers that will get to the finish of races. A.J. Allmendinger in victory lane? First, he's got to start contending, which he won't do, as long as he's with Petty and his shotty pit crews, not to mention the Roush influence. The only reason Ambrose won is because he's a road course expert, and he ran better that Allmendinger did on the ovals, more often than not. David Gilliiand in victory lane at Talladega? Not if Roush has anything to say about it. Trevor Bayne's Daytona 500 win may have cost Edwards the championship, because it was Edwards who wound up second, and Roush won't allow any other Ford team to win, if he can help it. That's a big reason he put in those orders at Talladega, because he was scared that Bayne or Gilliland might team up with a car from another make and win themselves. As it was, Bayne teamed up with Robby Gordon's Dodge for most of the race, because Roush wanted to freeze him out, and the same for Gilliland, though he actually had teammates in that race, unlike Bayne. Now, I think you might be spot on with some of your other predictions, Spen, such as those involving RCR and EGR, though I think McMurray will have a much better chance of winning races than Montoya will, because he races with a much cooler head. You may also be right on about HMS, though Gordon might very well go winless next year. Alan Gustavson's magic seems to work for just one year, then it fades. That's the way it was with Martin, and it might be that way with Gordon, especially now with Kasey Kahne moving in, though I don't like the idea of Kahne moving in with his crew chief. I think that's a bad idea. Now, I generally make my predictions for the coming season around Christmas time, though I have no idea where to put those, but they'll be interesting. 162. Jocke Persson posted: 11.21.2011 - 9:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) After watching an almost 7-hours long brodcast on ESPN, I wasn't disappointed. Tony Stewart won in style, incredible driving. And thumbs up to Carl, he was very gracious in defeat. 163. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2011 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fantastic race! 164. Cooper posted: 11.21.2011 - 11:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Draco, while Stewart is an "owner/driver" I don't believe he's anything close to Alan Kulwicki. Kulwicki was an "Owner/Driver/Manager/Mechanic/Business Man/Renaissance Man. I believe the cars he drove were made from his own shop and his own people. Stewart just gets a shipment of chassis' and engines from Hendrick and then drives them. Now if he decided to start his own engine and chassis program then that would compare to Alan Kulwicki! The closest thing that compares to Alan Kulwicki is Robby Gordon, as I believe he's responsible for the engines and cars that he drives. Unfortunately he doesn't have 1/100th of the money big owners have, so he usually gets his ass kicked on a regular basis. 165. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No driver has ever won the Nationwide & Cup championship in same year. (And now, no driver ever will) BUT, Under the "tradition" standings, Edwards would have won the Championship here, and despite skipping Road America, would have have won the Nationwide title if he were eligible for points in that series. So in theory, NASCAR's rule changes since 2004 have denied Carl 3 championships. 166. Steve posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anybody removed the ESPN announcers out of Jimmie Johnson's azzz yet? 167. Scott B posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Awesome job by Smoke! There were plenty of obstacles, and he overcame them all. Homestead: Yes, I did think the track raced well in this configuration. I don't expect them to get another date, though. Bad Timing Award: To Martin Truex Jr, for what was probably his best overall day of the season (qualified 2nd, finished 3rd)... on the one day no one was paying any attention to who finished 3rd. "We Need to Talk" Award: To Home Depot, who watched their former driver win a championship, and will be expecting an answer from Gibbs other than "he just needs a little more time" on Logano. "Bring on 2012" Award: To Kasey Kahne, who finished the year strong in his one-year deal with Red Bull, and takes his CC Kenny Francis with him to Hendrick. Unsung Hero Award: To Front Row Joe, who qualified for every Cup race this season in spite of not being in the top 35. Even with the weak fields, it's an accomplishment to get through a full season without a single DNQ, he still has the qualifying mojo. Edwards: It'll be interesting to see what kind of season he has next year after coming so close. Germain Racing: I suspect they may end up as a Chevy team, since they also race trucks, and Ford and Dodge are nearly invisible in that series these days. 168. potatosalad48 posted: 11.21.2011 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ post 122: I am a Jimmie Johnson fan, but to do what Tony did last night will likely never happen again. Everything was against him and he STILL won the title. That's why I'm a Tony Stewart fan. 169. Eric posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, Robby Gordon wasn't responsible for getting his engines in the past and it might still be the case. Robby has gotten engines from DEI, and other organizations during his time as driver/owner. 170. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2011 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does anyone think Homestead deserves a second date?" YES!!! And now for some random thoughts: -I want to expand on that Frank said. All three times Smoke has been in the thick of the title fight he has won it (yeah he finished 2nd in '01, but that was a come from behind 2nd place finish if that makes sense). Which makes me stand by my point even more that he would have won it all in '06 had he not acted like an ass for no reason at Daytona, Vegas, and Loudon. He would have smelled blood, beat the 48, possibly broken up the JJ/Chad express, and changed the entire course of NASCAR history over the previous 5 seasons. -Furthermore, this is Carl's 7th NASCAR bridesmaid finish in Cup ('05, '08, '11) and NWide ('06, '08, '09, '10). And for those saying "well, if not for the cha$e..." look at the number of those runnerups. If the system were different and people put more effort into maximizing points in the first 26 and got a little closer to him in points, would he be able to hold them off? Considering he also has runnerups in this year's Daytona 500 and Southern 500 and the '08 Brickyard 400, I say no. Is there any truth to the rumor him and Brad Keselowski are gonna trade numbers? Speaking of Brad..... -Brad and Carl both have 1 NWide title (which means nothing) and zero Cup titles. In the 3 seasons in which they both ran at least half the races in Cup, Brad has more wins than Carl in 2 of the 3 ('09 and '11), And Brad holds the overall win advantage over those years 4 to 3. I love those stats. Speaking of Brad and Carl.... -In the Southern 500 (aka The Start Of The Great Brad Revival) Carl was the first car on new tires needing only to pass unheralded Regan Smith in the scrappy but woefully underfunded Furniture Row car. But Regan got a huge assist on the last restart by Brad bump drafting him down the straightaway then blocking Carl a little allowing Regan just enough space to win, then bragged about it afterwards. If Carl wins that one, he gets 3 extra points at the cha$e reset. As a Brad fan who is still bitter about the two incidents last year, allow me an editorial moment: HA! -As I mentioned this is the third time Carl has come heartbreakingly close to a title. The previous two times his following season was a winless disaster ('06 and '09). Besides, a Roush driver hasn't put two outstanding seasons together since Mark in '98 and '99 (and by outstanding I mean lots of wins and a Top 3 points finish). -Remember when all the media was talking about KyBu and his "historic" or "history making" racking up of wins across the three divisions (ignoring that 80% of those were in deathly watered down NWide and Truck fields and that he consistently folded in Cup every Fall)? Well, he has made history. He is the first driver to finish last in the cha$e more than once. Where is Marty Reid to announce this? Speaking of KyBu..... -What do we make of JGR's outlook next year? Those TRD motors are not very good. That is a lot of progress they will need to make over 2 months, plus JGR as whole is looking rough for next year even without the TRD issue. First you have KyBu who will under an unbelievable microscope for at least the first 4 months next year due to his antics needing to be on his best behavior every single second with every slight boblle ready to be dissected to no end. Can he handle that? Second we have the continuing mess of the Denny/Ford combo. Then the 20 team issue. Where do I even start with that team? Is Zippy gonna leave? Is Home Depot gonna keep scaling back? Is Joey gonna get beaten up by his own team? Speaking of Busches...... -How will KuBu do next year? His horribly abrasive style (he is way worse with his own team than his brother ever dreamed of being, KyBu does his screwing up externally) is really wearing everyone out at Penske. They had a nice breath of fresh air this year to break up his brow beatings with Brad and Paul coming to life, but that can only keep their morale up for so long. How will this affect all of Penske Racing? Speaking of trying to predict..... -Kevin Harvick. I am a big stat geek and I like trying to find trends. Trying to figure out a trend with this guy's career is impossible. Predicting a good year or bad year from them is a complete shot in the dark. It looked easy at first: Unexpectedly great year ('01), miserable year ('02), really good year ('03), really disappinting year ('04). Seemed easy. But then he had an identical season to '04 in '05. He followed that with his best seasons to date in '06, then had a memorable '07 Daytona 500 win that should have given them enough momentum to last a while. But then he didn't win for another 3 years having a mediocre '07, a Top 5 points finish in '08, then an absolute crap '09. He exploded back into the picture in '10 with 3 wins and a 3rd in points, then followed that with another multi win 3rd place finish this year. What will he do in 2012? Nobody knows. 171. Bronco posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to add these in post #6 so here goes. Final Cup race for: 1) Mark Martin in the #5. He started off 2009 by almost falling out of the top 35, but ended up winning 5 races and was 2nd in the chase. Since then, he has gone winless, with a best finish of 2nd in the 2010 fall Martinsvvile race and this spring's event at Dover. 2011 is the first season where Mark has led less than 100 laps and finished outside the top 20 in points, which is exactly where Dale Earnhardt Jr finished the past two years with that team, proving that it was that team that made them both look bad. Thankfully, Lance McGrew isn't going to be a Cup crew chief anymore and hopefully Kahne and Francis can restore that team to respectability. 2) Darian Grubb with the #14 team. Tony and him took the ailing #70 team and led the points for much of 2009 with multiple wins but stumbled in the chase, in 2010 they got off to a slow start but won less and did worse in the chase, this season their first win came in race #27 but they still managed to win half the chase races and end up with more wins than anyone else. It's very ironic that the crew chief who helped Johnson open his first championship season with a Daytona 500 was part of the team that put end to Johnson's reign. After winning 9 races and coming close to the championship in 2008 and then being kicked off the #99 in favor of the big money from Aflac, Office Depot gets itself a championship before Carl officially does. Aflac is also reducing its role on the #99 with Fastenal sponsoring Carl for most races. I believe if Kahne and Bowyer had made the chase, they would have finished about 3rd and 5th based on their performance in the final 10 races. 172. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Germain Racing: I suspect they may end up as a Chevy team, since they also race trucks, and Ford and Dodge are nearly invisible in that series these days." I'd love to see them end up with Team Chevy. (I'm slightly biased in saying that lol) However....I don't see them fielding any trucks next season. Gaughan won't be back, Papis shouldn't be back, and the Truck Series is getting more expensive to run each year. It's been a good run with Todd Bodine in the #30/5 truck over the years, but the #13 Cup team has made strides this season, and they should put all their focus towards that effort in order to make themselves more competitive. 173. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Floridaman1985 - Agreed; given that last year the 6-7 (yes, they had a LOSING RECORD) Seattle Seahawks started the playoffs with an equal chance of reaching the Super Bowl, well... Spen: Grant Enfinger vs Josh Wise for Rookie of the Year! At least Enfinger's team has promised not to S&P. Hopefully they'll "buy a spot" (i.e. points) from one of the departing teams to help while they get their feet wet at the start of the season. Scott B: Absolutely a great achievement by Joe and NEMCO. That team, I think it can be safely said, has done the most with the least of any team in NASCAR this year. (Including not just qualifying for every race, but taking the lead, under green, not during pit stops, at the Firecracker 400.) How nobody has stepped up to sponsor them is absolutely beyond me. I'll give a shout-out on the "Mostest with the leastest" award to Tommy Baldwin Racing as well, who started the season as an S&P team, picked up a sponsor to run full-full-time, and was a legitimate threat to win both Talladega races (and who knows what might have happened at spring Talladega if Blaney had managed to stick with Kevin Harvick, instead of having Kurt Busch's front bumper establish a pattern). Eric - Robby runs Dodges, where is he getting engines from? Penske? AlmirolaFan88 - as I've mentioned, I'm hoping Germain goes for the numero-dos spot at Dodge. BUT, given that Chrysliat seems to have little to no interest beyond Penske in NASCAR, I'm not sure. (After all, you would think that Whitney or K-Automotive would have stuck with Dodge even as the #3 team behind Penske and RGM, but Keselowski, who has run Dodges since the dinosaurs that decayed into the oil they use were still alive and kicking, explicitly said one reason they switched to Chevy was the lack of Dodge support...!). 174. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think that Edwards and Roush have to be more upset at the fact that Trevor Bayne, a Roush development driver driving for a Roush farm team [the Wood Brothers] beat Edwards in the Daytona 500 than Edwards has to be upset at not winning the Southern 500 when Regan Smith beat him. If Edwards had gotten to second place earlier, Roush would probably have contacted Bayne through the spotters to move over and let the no. 99 pass and take the win for Roush, rather than have a Roush development driver for his farm team win the thing over Edwards. If any race has Roush stewing, especially after how the championship battle was decided, it would be the Daytona 500. Again, that's a main reason why Roush put strict orders on the other Ford drivers, to make sure that none of the other Ford teams could beat his at Talladega. I keep going back to the fact that it was Roush that caused Robert Yates Racing to crumble about five or six years ago, when Yates was the top Ford team throughout most of the 2004 season, prior to the Chase. Seeing that Yates was again being competitve with him, Roush saw to it that neither Yates or any other Ford team would ever seriously be able to challenge his team again. He might have even been behind the crumbling of the relationship between Kasey Kahne and Petty's team, seeing how much of a threat that could have been to his supremacy among the Ford teams, remembering that Kahne put a Petty Ford in victory lane in one of the qualifying races last year, something that Roush has STILL been unable to do. Roush just simply can't handle competition. That's why he levied the cheating accusations against Hendrick in 1998, as well as having a BIG influence in how weekends are run, in terms of when the final Cup practice is held in comparison to the Nationwide race. Note that Jeff Gordon's domination of the sport ended, not with the coming of drivers like Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart, but rather when the final Cup practice was scheduled BEFORE the Nationwide race, beginning in 2002, since he doesn't run in the Nationwide Series. Roush had a big part to play in that since virtually ALL of his drivers have run the Nationwide and Cup series races when they're held on the same track on the same weekend, going back to the early 90s, especially Mark Martin and Jeff Burton, to get an advantage on his competition. That's why others, like Childress, Hendrick [until about 2006 or '07], Gibbs, and Penske run the Nationwide Series. They don't want Roush to get that big advantage of having that extra track time before the Cup race. note that Ganassi doesn't run that series any more, and you see how far that has gotten them behind, and Hendrick is falling behind for eqactly the same reason. 175. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correction: the 2010 Seahawks were 7-9; point still stands. 176. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Random thought time: Let's get rid of the top 35 rule, and reinstate second-round qualifying instead. If after two chances you're not in the 42 fastest cars you don't deserve to race period...(43rd would be reserved for if the point leader has trouble). 177. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 00andJoe, the Seahawks had a record of 7-9, as they play 16 games in the NFL, but they DID win the NFC West with a losing record, as I had predicted that division would be won with a losing record last year, and even beat the New Orleans Saints in the first round before falling to the Bears in round two. As for Rookie of the Year next year, who cares about that, since there won't be a legitimate driver win that honor for the third straight year next year, barring a miracle. Andy Lally? Mike Bliss showed this past weekend what that team could do with an oval track racer in that car. Sure, 21st isn't that specatcular, but it's a vast improvement, considering they've run at the back all year long, even on road courses, where Lally is supposed to be good. But watch out for 2013, becuase there could actually be a battle for the Rookie of the Year worth watching. [A. Dillon, Stenhouse, and maybe one or two other prime contenders.] And by the way, has anyone heard the reports that Trevor Bayne might be looking for a ride for the 24 Hours of Daytona next year, possibly with the team that A.J. Allmendinger has been driving in that race with in previous years. Can you imagine the drivers of the 21 and 43 cars sharing a ride in the same race? Could that be part of why we saw Bayne with Jamie Allison during the rain delay yesterday? After all, why Allison wasn't with Roush or his representatives during the entire race is beyond me, especially after the engine problems the Fords were having yesterday, with two blowing prior tio the rain delay, and a third blowing up after the delay. If Bayne were to be part of the winning effort, he would join A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, and Jamie McMurray as only the fourth driver ever to win both the Daytona 500 and the 24 Hours of Daytona. [I believe McMurray won that race in one of the years that Ganassi won it, though I could be wrong about that. If I am, feel free to correct me on that.] 178. Eric posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, To answer your question, Robby got engines from Penske this year. I am aware of Robby runs dodges now before you told me. I only brought up DEI as an example of an engine supplier he had at one point during his time as a owner/driver. He got engines prior to Penske were from DEI, Roush/Yates,Evernham and TRD engines. 179. Bronco posted: 11.21.2011 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Brad holds the overall win advantage over those years 4 to 3. I love those stats." I just love how you'll say anything possible just to make Brad look good. So what if he has more wins than Carl from '09 to now? So what if he won more races this season than JJ and finished ahead of all the HMS cars? That means nothing over the long run. Since you're a stat geek, I suppose you think that Steve Wallace is better than JJ, Gordon, Earnhardt Jr, Keselowski, Biffle, Kenseth, Kahne, Harvick and Burton since he has finished ahead of all of them in 100% of his Cup starts (consisting right now of only the 2011 Daytona 500). Haha. I don't expect anything from Brad next year. Sure, I could be wrong, just as I was about the way 2011 would turn out for him, but the fact is Penske cars are wildly inconsistent (just look at Kurt's 2011 season) which doesn't give me much hope for him. I look at him as being the slightly more successful Jamie McMurray from 2010, and will end up with 1 or no wins and 13th-20th in points in 2012. My opinion of course. 180. Cooper posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I'm not sure about that. I believe I heard at some point in the season that Penske had no correlation with Robby and that Robby was using his own stuff. Maybe Robby was using the old Dodge engines? Anyone that knows the real deal with this situation, let me know. I'm a Robby G fan and it would be shocking news to me if he was getting imported engines from Roger. 181. Ryan posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We all know what is missing from Tony's resume' now... A 500 mile win at Daytona or Indianapolis. Dale Earnhardt was considered the greatest driver by many even before he finally got his lone Daytona 500 victory. The 1990 race was his, until his freak bad luck... But Tony knows and everyone else knows to be considered one of the greatest of all time he knows what he has to do and he has been so close. 2003-2008 he had at least top 3 cars in the Daytona 500. He led the most laps in those races twice and in 2008 he led the white flag lap and chose the wrong lane on the backstretch. In 2006 I believe he had that in hand if he wouldn't have tried to go out of his way and be an ass on TV. And in 2007 he and Kurt Busch had the cars to beat until their crash. In 2009 and 2011 he had pretty good cars. One could make a good case that he is close to being Buddy Baker and Dale Earnhardt when it comes to getting a Daytona 500 victory. 182. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Furniture Row Racing and Regan Smith were a nice surprise in 2011, both made huge improvements from years past. I hope Regan gets win #2 (#3 to me), he is capable. And for Dave Blaney to win at a plate race next year, that would be a huge win, I hope that happens to. TBR is steadily improving as well. 183. Cooper posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, it all depends if people catch up to Penske. The main reason there cars got better was a similar situation to the Fords. They had a breakthrough with the engine cooling system which allowed them to cover up the front grill and create some major downfroce. Unfortunately teams caught up to them in the chase, and Brad's summer advantage ended. I expect Brad and possibly the #22 to run how they ran in the chase...10th-15th area. Luckily enough Brad is still growing as a driver and will improve in some major areas. There was many times he would have a fast car and run down certain drivers only to make a bad decision and not be able to pass them. All 3 of his wins were situations where he had to hold off a driver not pass them. He also will be much more wiser and the extra year of experience with Paul has to be an advantage as well. 184. Cooper posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "178. Eric posted: 11.21.11 - 3:27 pm" You're right, my apologies. http://aol.sportingnews.com/nascar/story/2011-02-10/dodge-to-support-robby-gordons-racing-efforts 185. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't expect anything from Brad next year. Sure, I could be wrong, just as I was about the way 2011 would turn out for him, but the fact is Penske cars are wildly inconsistent (just look at Kurt's 2011 season) which doesn't give me much hope for him. I look at him as being the slightly more successful Jamie McMurray from 2010, and will end up with 1 or no wins and 13th-20th in points in 2012. My opinion of course." I don't know, I think the last 3 years with Kurt consistently making the Chase and Brad and Paul bringing the 2nd Penske team up to even ground has shown that Penske's getting away from the season-to-season inconsistency that was plaguing them for a while. He might not have quite as good a year as 2011 but he'll definitely get off to a better start than he did this year so I think he'll make the Chase and be right there with Kurt. Besides, you were wrong about this: "I agree, Brad is good enough to keep a car in the top 35, can crack the top 15 every now and then and can run up front for a few laps at Talladega, but apart from that he's as mediocre as it gets. And I'm not picking on him in any way, but its just the truth. He has finished behind his teammate in every race this season, and has one lead lap finish while the other beer sponsored car has two WINS. And he'll probably slide further down the points once Burton and Reutimann get some luck on their side and run better. I don't really see him being in the #2 after this ride, barring a major improvement." And pretty much EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER SAID about Brad so I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Still, this might be the most "credit" you've ever given him so kudos for that. 186. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 11.21.2011 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I never said Stewart was Kulwicki, and I wont until Stewart pulls away from Hendrick support. I do however agree with you that RG is the most Like kulwicki right now, but his focus hasnt been on Cup in years. That paragraph you mis read was also a question to the stat masters here about whether this is the first time in the modern era that a driver has won the cup championship while also owning a separate cup team. 187. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always believed that there's no more talented driver in NASCAR right now, and he's in the argument for ever, than Tony Stewart. Sometimes he doesn't fully utilize that talent, and although not nearly as harshly as DSFF argues I think he could've done more. But the thing that makes Tony my favorite driver is how there's nobody else in NASCAR who's as much of a pure old-school racer as he is; even if it takes away from his focus on the Cup side, he'll be out racing WoO sprints and other dirt races and running Eldora. And until this year's Chase, 2 championships and nearly 40 Cup wins was still pretty damn good. But there's no doubt that we saw the absolute best of Tony Stewart in the Chase, epitomized by maybe the best race he's ever driven last night at Homestead. Nobody else was more aggressive than Tony, not even Carl who really needed to match that aggressiveness to even have a chance. And we've seen aggressive Carl in the past, he's one of the guys who seems to make the most 3-wide-or-more passes. But I can't deny the credit that Carl deserves for being the best from day 1 of the season to the end. But like it's already been said, everyone knows the system coming in. And Carl did everything right in the Chase; the car wasn't great at Loudon, Kansas or Martinsville but they found ways to salvage good finishes, they played their cards right at Talladega and then had the performance everywhere else to rattle off a freaking 4.9 average finish! But the fatal exception was that they couldn't win races, whether just in the Chase or all year save Las Vegas. Where I think Carl lost this championship was at Dover, where he absolutely dominated and would've won if it weren't for that speeding penalty late in the race. Carl managed to charge back to 3rd, and everyone thought "wow, Carl might've just saved his championship hopes with that comeback drive!". But given how things played out, the 5 points he left on the table with that mistake ended up costing him. We saw the best of Tony Stewart and Carl Edwards, but Tony's best was simply better. Better than Carl, better than any driver in NASCAR today and maybe better than any driver today period. 188. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Correction: the 2010 Seahawks were 7-9; point still stands." But if the Seahawks didn't make the playoffs, then this wouldn't have happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueR1TFFEt3g "I just love how you'll say anything possible just to make Brad look good." You mean like pointing out that over the last 108 races (about 20 of which Brad didn't even run) Brad has won more of them than Carl? "Bronco, it all depends if people catch up to Penske." I agree. Worse case scenario, I think Brad makes the cha$e by default. Next year will be a watered down year at the top, even more than this year. Of the drivers that didn't make the cha$e this year, who can really step up next year? I think Kahne definitely will, and Biffle has a chance even though he seems to be unhappier by the day at Roush. If Brad can be up to 11th after Richmond despite those absolute dogshit first 10 races that were an extension of his dogshit 2010 season, Penske would have to take a huge dive. I see KuBu in a more vulnerable position as far as falling back due to team changes and the fact he may have his face broken by a member of his own team at some point. The last 4 races for the #2 team went like this: He spun at the end of the Martinsville race losing at least 10 spots (and infuriating a certain fan in the crowd there), then threw away 6th to 15th place finishes in the last 3 races by trying crazy pit strategy because they had little to lose. They still ended up 5th in points. Hard to see them stepping backwards enough to fall out of the Top 12 in one of the least stacked fields in a while. 189. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I've always believed that there's no more talented driver in NASCAR right now, and he's in the argument for ever, than Tony Stewart. Sometimes he doesn't fully utilize that talent, and although not nearly as harshly as DSFF argues I think he could've done more." I'm gonna say this: His driving at Homestead was Dale Earnhardt caliber. That is a compliment I do not give out lightly. He can do things with his car that, in my lifetime, only Dale could do. Of course he doesn't have Dale's racing IQ. Dale was to NASCAR in his era what Michael Jordan was to the NBA in his era. The most talented guy, the guy with the best sports IQ (everything they did had a short and long term purpose), and the sport's fiercest competitor. Wheras Tony usually hurts himself as much as anyone else when he steps out of line, Dale made his hits count. As despicable as Dale's actions were at Richmond in '86, it had one hell of an effect. Almost overnight, the DW/Junior era was over and Dale's 10 year reign began (in NASCAR's most stacked era). 190. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, it's time now to play... Spin the Magic Number Wheel! Or, who's going to buy who's owner points to get into the race at Daytona? On the table are the #33, #4, #6, and #83 Potential buyers are the #10, #15, #21, #30, #37, #46 and #93. Go! 191. H8R posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 118, I don't know how much this applied as the year went on, but this article says that Robby Gordon was getting engine support from Penske this year. http://www.scenedaily.com/news/articles/sprintcupseries/Robby_Gordon_switches_to_Dodge_plans_call_for_18-race_schedule_in_2011.html 192. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and toss the #71 in the 'buying' list too. Looks like a seller's market, especially if RBR comes back... 193. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 00andJoe, your "number wheel", as far as buying points would probably go like this: First of all, the 15 car is going to probably get the 00's points, since Bowyer's running full-time next year, so Clint Bowyer will, in all likelyhood, be safe for the Daytona 500. The only team I see the 33 possibly selling its points to would be the 10 car, because of the Chevrolet situation. I honestly don't think both the 4's and 83's points are going anywhere, one might, but not both, nor are the 6's and here's why. I think that if Cole Whitt winds up with one of the cars from what's left of Red Bull Racing, if either one, or both teams still exist with another entity next year, Whitt's no. 84 would definately get one of those spots, but I don't see that happeneing with BOTH Red Bull spots. As for the no. 6, I think Roush is going to run the no. 6 in next year's Daytona 500 with one of his two development drivers [probably Bayne, since he's also eligible for the Bud Shootout due to his Daytona 500 win, and the Wood Brothers probably won't run that race, concentrating instead on the 500 itself], if sponsorship isn't found to run David Ragan in that car, which is still Roush's first choice. If Bayne gets the no. 6 ride for the Daytona 500 and other select races next year, that would free the 21 car for Stenhouse, making it a perfect situation for Roush in that regard. Now if points aren't found for Danica's no. 10 car, I don't think she'll have much trouble becoming the third woman to qualify for the Daytona 500, joining Janet Guthrie [1977, '80] and Shawna Robinson [2002], possibly even contending for the pole position, given Hendrick's strong qualifying runs at the plate tracks in recent years. As for the other teams not locked into the Daytona 500, it's going to be harder since there is no loyalties involved, except for the Wood Brothers, and their attempt to buy the owner points to get into next year's Daytona 500 might get trapped in a numbers game in Roush does intend to run the no. 6 car in selected events next year in hopes of returning it to full-time status in 2013 with either Bayne, Stenhouse, or a more established driver that we don't yet know about. 194. LittleAl posted: 11.21.2011 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart has built a pretty good resume for himself: First to win the USAC triple crown. Indy car title. Triple-champion of the Cup series. IROC title. Wins in various other series, including World of Outlaws this past year. Multiple wins in his all-star charity dirt race, against some of the best drivers in the country. ...and that's just as a driver. As an owner, he now owns a Cup title, 10 USAC titles, and 3 World of Outlaw titles. And this still impressed the hell out of me; completing all 1100 miles of the Indianapolis 500/Coke 600 double-header, while finishing 6th and 3rd in those races respectively. As a Hoosier who grew up 30 minutes from Stewart's old stomping grounds in Columbus and Rushville, I couldn't be more proud of the guy. He's a hero in these parts, every bit the equal of Larry Bird and Peyton Manning. 195. Ryan posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wheras Tony usually hurts himself as much as anyone else when he steps out of line, Dale made his hits count. As despicable as Dale's actions were at Richmond in '86, it had one hell of an effect. Almost overnight, the DW/Junior era was over and Dale's 10 year reign began (in NASCAR's most stacked era)." Very well put... Not comparing these two to Kyle Busch and Jr. But similar situations indeed, after the Richmond Spring race in 2008, Dale Jr. hasn't been the same. 196. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart picked up his 44th career Sprint Cup Series victory, tying him with Bill Elliott for 15th all time, 10th in the modern era and he now ranks 2nd only to Jimmie Johnson (Jeff Gordon 3rd with 43) in wins since coming to Cup full time in 1999. His 5th win of 2011 gives him the most wins on the season, the first time he's done so since he led the 2000 season with 6 wins. And he's the first driver to 5 of the last 10 races of a season since Rusty Wallace in 1993 (10 wins total that year). I'd gather Tony's the first driver to do so after being winless prior to the last 10 races. Tony becomes the 9th driver to win 3 or more Cup championships, tying David Pearson, Lee Petty, Darrell Waltrip and Cale Yarborough for 5th all time (still 5th in the modern era, and 2nd to Jimmie Johnson's 5 championships since 1999). Tony's 9 top 5's are the fewest by a Cup champion since Bill Rexford had just 5 in 1950. It's also a new modern era record, beating out Kurt Busch's 10 from his 2004 Chase championship. After never having fewer than 10 top 5's in his first 11 seasons, Tony's had 9 in each of the previous 2. Tony's 3rd career Cup Homestead win ties Greg Biffle for the most at the track, and is his first since he won the first 2 Homestead Cup races back in 1999 and 2000; it's his first win and just his 2nd top 5 in 9 starts under the new configuration, but he's the first driver to win under both. Carl Edwards finished 2nd for a series-leading 7th time in 2011, including 3 in a row to end the season. So maybe it's fitting that the driver with the most runner-up's finishes runner-up for the championship while the driver with the most wins, wins the championship. This is the 3rd time that Carl has finished at least tied for 2nd in the championship. In 2005 he finished T-2nd, in 2008 2nd, 2011 T-1st but loses on tiebreaker... I'd be putting money on Carl Edwards winning his first championship in 2014. lol Carl Edwards finishes 2011 with series-high in top 5's (19, tying his career high set in 2008), 26 top 10's, 3 poles, 9.4 average start and 9.3 average finish (both career high's). Carl was also one of only 3 drivers (Ryan Newman... and Juan Pablo Montoya!?!?) to finish every race this year. Carl finishes in the top 2 for the 3rd time in the last 4 Homestead races, and runs his average finish there down to 5.2 in 8 starts (2 wins, 5 top 5's, 7 top 10's). Martin Truex Jr. ends 2011 with just his 3rd top 5 of the season, but all in the last 15 races; this follows a run of just 2 in the previous 112. After just 1 top 5, 7 top 10's and a 22nd place finish in the standings in 2010 in his first year with MWR, Truex Jr. improved to 3 top 5's, 12 top 10's and 18th in points in 2011. It's his best season since 2008. Truex Jr. now has 5 top 10's in his last 6 Homestead starts with the other finish being 11th (2 top 5's, 6.8 average finish). Matt Kenseth reached 20 top 10's in a year for the 5th time in 12 full seasons in Cup. His 4th place finish in the standings is his 4th top 5 in the last 6 seasons, his 14.2 average start and 3 poles are new career high's and his 12.2 average finish is his best since a 9.8 in 2006. It's Kenseth's 3rd top 5 and 5th top 10 in his last 7 Homestead starts (8.7 avg fin, versus 30.0 avg fin in his first 5 starts). Same old, same old for Jeff Gordon in 2011 as he finished with 10+ top 5's and top 10's in half the races or more for the 15th time in 19 seasons. His 3 wins and 922 laps led are his most in a season since 2007, but he's now failed to finish top 5 in points for the 5th time in the last 7 seasons (just 4 times out of the top 5 in his first 12). Homestead continues to be just 1 of 2 active tracks that Gordon has failed to win at, but he did pick up his 6th top 5 in 13 starts at the track (10 top 10's, 11.3 avg fin). Clint Bowyer's career at RCR ends with 5 wins (21.7% of what RCR's done), 31 top 5's (24.4%), 95 top 10's (31.6%), 2 poles (28.6%), 1,473 laps led (27.0%) and a 15.4 average finish (versus 15.2 for RCR) in 216 starts since moving to Cup full time in 2006. Bowyer also won a Nationwide championship for RCR in 2008. Bowyer ended up scoring the 5th most points in the Chase on the strength of 1 win, 7 top 10's and a 11.7 average finish (versus 16.96 in the first 26 races). He picked up his 3rd top 10 in 6 Homestead starts (13.8 avg fin). In his one and only season with Red Bull Racing, Kasey Kahne had his most top 5's (8) and top 10's (15) since 2006. They're also the most for an RBR driver in a season ever, along with his 15.6 average finish. Kahne scored the 3rd most points in the Chase, the only driver other than Carl Edwards or Tony Stewart to have an average finish better than 10th (7.9, 1 win and 5 top 5's). Kahne picked up his 4th top 10 in his last 6 Homestead starts. Kevin Harvick finishes in the top 5 in points in back-to-back seasons for the 1st time in his career, finishing 3rd in 2010 and now 2011. This is despite ending up with fewer top 5's (9 vs. 16), top 10's (19 vs. 26) and a worse average finish (11.5 vs. 8.7) than last year, but he won more races (4 vs. 3) and led more laps (403 vs. 357). However, this is Harvick's 4th top 5 finish in points in the last 6 seasons. It's also his 9th top 10 in 11 Homestead starts (7.9 avg fin). Although Denny Hamlin suffered the worst season of his Sprint Cup Series career, with career lows in top 5's (5), top 10's (14), average start (17.1) and average finish (16.0), it might be the best season for the Jimmie Johnson Curse driver since Matt Kenseth in 2007; Denny Hamlin actually won a race, something Jeff Gordon, Carl Edwards and Mark Martin all failed to do, and he finished top 10 in points (only Jeff Gordon did so in 2008, finishing 7th). Hamlin managed to finish 2011 strong with 8 straight top 20 finishes, including 1 top 5 and 4 top 10's for a 12.1 average finish. He also finished in the top 10 for the 4th time in the last 6 Homestead races (1 win, 3 top 5's, 7.2 average finish). After just 1 top 10 in the first 31 races of the year, Jeff Burton ends 2011 with 2 top 5's and 4 top 10's in the last 5 races (9.8 average finish, versus 19.7 prior). Burton sneaked 20th in points, the 16th consecutive season he's finished in the top 20 (10.6 average points finish). Burton has 3 top 10's in the last 5 Homestead races, but hasn't had back-to-back top 10's there since 2001 & 2002 (4th & 3rd). 197. Spen posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous/Eric: "What I am basically saying it is more likely for a driver being in their prime at the age 50 including Tony Stewart than it was 10 years ago." I'm not so sure about that. After all, no driver born after Mark Martin has yet won a race after turning 42. Granted, 1960-69 produced a rather weak crop of drivers, but that could be a sign that drivers like Tony, Gordon and Matt might not be winning for much longer. Cjs: Okay, maybe suggesting Bayne going to the #37 next year was stretching it. I didn't think the #6 was going to stick around at all. If he doesn't pick up sponsors though, it may be an option in the future. Regarding Allmendinger, remember that he did have Dover '10 pretty much wrapped up until his tire blew. On certain tracks, namely one-milers, he can run well. And Roush puts zero effort into those races anyway, so it's not like there'd be a Roush car running well enough to win. Plus, I'm sure that now that Ambrose has won, Robbie Loomis is going to make sure that the #43 is the top priority over at RPM. (Remember, one of the reason's Kahne left was because Loomis blantently favored the #43 over his car. That and Gillette being an all-around ass. That had more to do with his departure than Roush.) And as you yourself have said, there is no such thing as a dumb pick at Talladega. In the fall race, when it's chase time, I'm sure they'll keep a tight leash on the other Ford teams, but in the spring, as long as the FRM cars are drafting together, they can't complain too much. And Gilliland strikes me as the kind of guy who would say "screw team orders, I've got a shot to win this thing!". It's not like Roush is giving them that much support, anyway. 198. Spen posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Grant Enfinger vs Josh Wise for Rookie of the Year!" Wasn't Josh Wise fired? 199. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I dunno. From what I've heard Larry Gunselman doesn't talk to Jayski very often, so updates are slim. 200. Ryan posted: 11.21.2011 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jr. got 7th in the points standings, lol, what a joke... What on earth is he going to say when he speaks at Vegas? Lets hear some comments 201. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, you might be right about that, except for one thing. Trevor Bayne, driving for the Wood Brothers, and employed by Roush, beat a Roush driver to win the Daytona 500, and the points that Edwards lost right there cost him the title, so I think Roush is going to keep a tight leash on ALL the Ford teams to make sure they can't beat his teams head-to-head. As for Kahne leaving Petty because Robbie Loomis favored the 43 over the other cars. Listen, as long as Richard Petty is in charge there, and he was then, and he will be until he is physically no longer able to go to the shop, the 43 car will ALWAYS be favored, as that is, and always will be Petty's baby. My point about Allmendinger not winning was that he's had shotty pit work, another hallmark of the post-Dale Inman era at Petty's team, so even if he hadn't had a tire failure, he would have had bad pit stops later in the race that would have put him out of the running for the win anyway, and now he's not even the team's top performer on the oval tracks, either, as Ambrose has run better on the ovals than Allmendinger, as well. Just look at the stats and who posts the higher finishes. If you do, then you'll see that Ambrose finishes much higher than Allmendinger does when both have relatively trouble-free races. Allmendinger finished higher in the points because he doesn't have nearly the amount of bad finishes that Ambrose does, but I don't think you'll be seeing Allmendinger gracing victory lane any time soon, if at all in NASCAR competition, unless he lucks into one at Dover, the only track where he runs good enough to even see victory lane. And you are right, there is no such thing as a dumb prediction at Talladega, either in the 70s and 80s, or today, but I don't think Roush will ever allow a car from a rival Ford team to beat his team heads-up in any plate race ever again, unless it's Petty's team, which he has less influence over than he thinks he does. After all, unless I remember wrong, Petty was celebrating with the Wood Brothers in victory lane, but Roush wasn't after the Daytona 500, which if I'm right, says something right there. But now that he's learned his lesson from this year's Daytona 500 and how it may have cost him the championship, he won't ever allow one of the lower-echelon Ford teams to beat him in a plate race heads-up. He's probably more furious now than ever about Bayne's win over Edwards in that event. If Edwards hadn't been in the running, he probably wouldn't feel that way, but believe me, he does, even though he won't say it publicly. That's why he set up those Ford orders at Talladega in the fall. Why do you think he overruled Carl Edwards' original plan to draft with the 21 car, which was his original plan for that race. Because he didn't want a rival Ford team to beat him again. That's why. 202. Cooper posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "200. Ryan posted: 11.21.11 - 6:37 pm" Uhhh, I'd like to thank everyone for the opportunity (scratches beard) it's hard to run 15th week in week out. Uhhhhhh. I'd like to thank all my sponsors that have supported me, (adjusts clip-on tie) I'll eventually get that win. Now let's get outta here I have a voucher for the buffet! 203. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Talon that is just enough "pride" for Bronco to swallow to give him "credit" for not going above what Brocno said about Brad but BLOWING THAT OUT OF THE WATER!!!!!!!!!! Robby is the ONLY true driver/owner left in NASCAR (on his way out tho). I'm willing to bet if he put all of his effort into NASCAR, he'd have more 2007 type seasons, hell he should have already won a race if it weren't for luck/bad time/Robby being Robby. I understand why Robby sticks with off-road racing (his roots after all) but i honestly don't know what he can do there. Might has well race out your final years in something that while isn't his forte but a challenge. I still believe (stupidly) that RC might hire Robby back if push comes to shove. 204. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's some more on how other drivers' seasons turned out: Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s 7th place finish in the standings is his best since finishing 5th in 2006, and his best in 4 seasons with Hendrick Motorsports. His 4 top 5's and 12 top 10's are his most over the last 3 seasons, but he led a career-low 52 laps. Ryan Newman finishes in the top 10 in points for the 2nd time in 3 seasons with Stewart Haas Racing, and posted his best numbers since joining SHR (1 win, 9 top 5's, 17 top 10's, 3 poles, 403 laps led, 14.0 avg fin). His top 10's and average finish are his best since 2003 and his top 5's are his best since 2004. Regan Smith's breakout season (1 win, 5 top 10's) helped Furniture Row Racing finish as the highest single-car team in the standings at 26th. Jamie McMurray suffers the worst season of his 9-year Cup Series career; the 2 top 5's are his 2nd least in a season and he set new career lows in top 10's (4), laps completed (9584) and points finish (27th). AJ Allmendinger improved again in his 5th season in Cup, with new career high's in top 10's (10), laps completed (10,387), average start (14.9), average finish (16.1) and finish in the standings (15th). Paul Menard, in his 5th full season in Cup and 1st with RCR, got his 1st career Cup win and had career high's in top 5's (4), top 10's (8), laps led (82), average start (12.0), average finish (18.0) and finished a career-best 17th in the standings. Brian Vickers' tenure at Red Bull Racing ends with 1 win (1 of RBR's 2 Cup wins), 11 top 5's (out of 20 for RBR), 34 top 10's (out of 56), 7 poles (out of 10), 473 laps led (out of 886) and a 20.5 average finish (vs. 22.9) in 142 starts. David Reutimann leaves MWR after giving them their only 2 Cup wins to date (2009 Coke 600, 2010 at Chicagoland). Since 2007, Reutimann has also accounted for 12 of MWR's 17 top 5's, 26 of 52 top 10's, 4 of 7 poles and 334 of 637 laps led along with a 21.6 average finish (23.7 for MWR). In his 3rd full season in Cup, Joey Logano established new career low's in top 10's (6) and points finish (24th) but had new career high's in poles (2) and laps led (58). But it's a major regression from 2010 which saw him get 16 top 10's and finish 16th in the standings. After just 2 finishes of 10th as his best finish on his way to finishing 25th in points in 2010, his first full season of Cup, Brad Keselowski exploded in 2011 with 3 wins, 10 top 5 and finishing 5th in the standings. His wins were his first since his 2009 Talladega win. For the first time in his Cup career, Kyle Busch led the series in laps led; he led 1,455 laps in 2011, over 300 more than 2nd place Jimmie Johnson (1,115), and it's the 4th straight season he's led 1000+ laps. He also led the series in podium finishes with 11. However, Kyle fails to finish in the top 10 in points for the 2nd time in the last 3 seasons and finishes dead last in the Chase for a 2nd time (10th in 2006). And to add on about Denny Hamlin's season, Hamlin was the highest finishing JGR driver in points for the 5th time in 6 seasons. Although Mark Martin had 10+ top 10's for a 24th consecutive season, Mark Martin fails to finish in the top 20 in points for the first time in 25 full seasons in Cup. Trevor Bayne's first season in Cup ends with a Daytona 500 win, an 18.8 avg start and 25.8 average finish in 17 starts for the Wood Brothers. His best non-plate finish was a 16th at Michigan. Bobby Labonte averaged a 9.4 finish in the standings in his 11 seasons with JGR. But since leaving JGR (2006-present), his average has gone down to 25th with his 29th place finish in the 2011 standings. He did pick up his first top 5 and top 10 finishes since 2009 though. In their 3rd season in Cup, Tommy Baldwin Racing picked up it's first ever top 10 thanks to Dave Blaney's 3rd place finish in the Talladega Chase race. Blaney was TBR's first full time driver, finishing 32nd in the standings (34 starts, 1 with another team). Not only does Jimmie Johnson's streak of 5 consecutive Sprint Cup Series championships come to an end after 2011, but his streak of 9 straight finishes in the top 5 in the standings ends as well (finished 6th). His 12.9 average start was his worst since 14.3 in his rookie season in 2002, and he established a new career low in wins with just 2 (averaged 5.9 wins per season over the previous 9 years). However, Jimmie did post 10+ top 5's, 20+ top 10's and 1000+ laps led for a 5th consecutive season, and extended his streak of winning seasons to 10 straight. Kurt Busch's 2011 pretty much matched his 2010 season; 2 wins, 8-9 top 5's, 16-17 top 10's, multiple poles, about 800 laps led, and an 11th place finish in the standings. He extended his streak of consecutive winning seasons to 10. Greg Biffle endured his worst season in Cup since his rookie season in 2003; he earned a career-high 3 poles but his 3 top 5's ties his career-low from 2003 and 16th in points is his worst since he was 17th in 2004. He did reach 10+ top 10's for a 7th consecutive season. This is as of last week, but it's not like it changed any for the better for David Ragan: Since Ragan moved up to Cup in 2007, Roush has 30 wins, 169 top 5�s, 316 top 10�s, 8252 laps led and a 16.3 average finish. Of that, Ragan owns 1 win (this year in the Daytona night race), 12 top 5�s, 30 top 10�s, 95 laps led and a 21.0 average finish. Although his engine failure at Homestead pushed his points finish in 2011, 19th, below his career-high of 18th in 2009, this was still Marcos Ambrose's best season to date in Cup. He got his 1st career win and established career high's across the board: 5 top 5's, 12 top 10's, 17.5 avg start and 18.3 average finish. Michael McDowell ran the most races among S&P drivers with 32 starts; he finished just 3 races and endedup with an average finish of 39.8. 205. Eric posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the driver born from 1970 to 1975 will be a good test to my theory by the end of the decade. Jeff Gordon is going to win races, but I think his prime really ended after 2007. I think his back injury in 2008 caused that. Matt Kenseth is a driver that could win races longer than Jeff depending on how Roush is and Matt really didn't get hurt in his career to my Knowledge. Stewart in terms of his prime is depending on conditioning and how good his team is being ran. Earnhardt won 3 cup titles in his 40's, so winning another cup title isn't quite out of the question. Stewart only had one serious injury to my knowledge. I think the crop of drivers from 1960 to 1969 drivers isn't quite as weak as Spen mentioned. That decade of drivers really had a lot of what if drivers because there was some pretty good talent in Biffle, Ward Burton Mayfield, Robby Gordon, Ricky Craven, and excellent talent in Davey Allison. While Jeff Burton and Bobby Labonte had the most career cup wins from that group, there were the most talented drivers of that group born. If Davey Allison didn't die, the 1960 to 1969 drivers would have looked at worst like the drivers born from 1940 to 1949. The drivers from 1940 to 1949 had 2 champion cup drivers in Waltrip and Parsons. Buddy Baker, Neil Bonnett, and Geoff Bodine were other big name cup stars from that time period of drivers being born. 206. 00andJoe posted: 11.21.2011 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Michael McDowell ran the most races among S&P drivers with 32 starts" What about Joe? 207. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, did A.J. Allmendinger really improve over last year? I don't think so. Sure, he had more top ten finishes and a higher points finish than last year, but I think he actually ran better last year. He had only one top five finish, and that was in the crazy fuel-mileage finish in the Coca-Cola 600, where he was fifth, the best finish in that race for a Richard Petty car since Richard himself finished fourth in the 1987 race his son Kyle won. If not for all the cars that ran out of fuel, he wouldn't have even been in the top ten. Remember that same finish resulted in David Ragan finishing second and Joey Logano third, so even Allmendinger's fifth-place finish in that race wasn't very impressive when you consider who finished second and third. And he led only 51 laps this season, compared to 181 last season. Aside from that fifth-place finish at Charlotte, he didn't finish higher than seventh in any race until the next-to-last race at Phoenix. If anything, Allmendinger's on-track performance might have regressed this season. His finishing races bailed out his season, or he would have been back there battling for about 20th-23rd in points. I really think his ride might be on the line next season, especially since Ford might want to put one of Roush's development drivers in of those Petty cars in 2013. Can you imagine if that driver is Trevor Bayne? If it is, consider that he might be the one to put the 43 car back in victory lane after putting the 21 back there at Daytona this year. Only Marvin Panch and Buddy Baker ever won for both the Woods and Petty. Bayne might very well have that chance in 2013, if his deal with Roush falls through and one of Petty's cars opens up for 2013. 208. Anonymous posted: 11.21.2011 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Petty was 3rd in the 2007 Coca-Cola 600. 209. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2011 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgot about that, Anonymous. That, like this year's running of the race, was a fuel mileage race. I was referring to the 43 car. I meant to say that Allmendinger's finish in the 600 was the best for the 43 car in that event since Richard himself finished fourth in the 1987 Coca-Cola 600, a race won by his son Kyle, driving for, of all teams, the Wood Brothers, this year's Daytona 500 winners. And to show how much racing has changed since then, even though Richard was fourth, he was two laps behind at thte finish, as Kyle Petty was the last driver to win a race on a track of at least 1.5 miles in length to lap the field. Interestingly, Kyle won the 1987 Coca-Cola 600 with father Richard fourth, while on the very same day, under similar circumstances [high attrition, leaders falling by the wayside late in the event], Al Unser, Sr. won the Indianapolis 500 with son Al, Jr. taking fourth, four laps behind. Interestingly, even though he turned 50 in 1987, King Richard was still at his best in the crown jewels that year. He finished third in both the Daytona 500 and Southern 500, and was fourth in the Coca-Cola 600. 210. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I really don't 1960-1969 did not have as much as weak of drivers as you think. The real problem wasn't talent, but other issues. Here the drivers I am referring to: Davey Allison: died in his prime with 19 wins. He was only 32 and could have won a couple championships. Ward Burton: more talented than his record says. He was better than the race organizations he was with. He was a driver that could have won 10 to 20 races in his cup career if he didn't race for Bill Davis or being too loyal to him if he were with the right organization. Drivers just don't win at Darlington 2 times and once at Rockingham in a cup career without any talent like Ward did. Jeremy Mayfield: Actually was a pretty talented driver, but he wasted even more talent than Kyle Busch or Keven Harvick thanks to being a headcase and doing drugs. Robby Gordon - talented driver, but wasted a lot of it due to being a headcase, knucklehead on race track, and being a driver/owner. Steve Park - He was very talented, but very back luck on the race track in terms of injuries. Head injury cost him being a competitive cup driver. Before his Darlington crash, he was a driver that could have won over 15 races in his cup career based on the fact he was showing his potential as a cup driver in 2001. In 2001, it looked like he was improving to the point that he could have been a title threat in 2002 at time of his career altering Darlington crash back in 2001. Ricky Craven - Ricky had very good talent, but concussions prevented him to showcase his full potential. His wins at Carl Wells show that Ricky had talent, and was better than his team. What happened at Hendrick was caused by the concussions he had. Greg Biffle - good driver with very good talent. The truth with him is he could have had 20 to 30 cup wins by now if he started cup racing at a younger age. That was caused by the fact in the late 1980's and early 1990's, Nationwide teams for the most part were not looking for drivers in their early 20's and racing on the west coast didn't help him at all either. Biffle wouldn't have been in cup if it wasn't for Benny Parsons telling Jack Roush about him. 211. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 'Brad and Carl both have 1 NWide title (which means nothing) and zero Cup titles. In the 3 seasons in which they both ran at least half the races in Cup, Brad has more wins than Carl in 2 of the 3 ('09 and '11), And Brad holds the overall win advantage over those years 4 to 3. I love those stats.' Although Carl can say he contended for and almost won one of the most epic title battles in NASCAR history and Brad can't. But it is nice to see Brad score more wins than Carl this season. Not bad for a guy who a lot of people thought would be the next Lennie Pond, Phil Parsons, Bobby Hillin, etc. 'As I mentioned this is the third time Carl has come heartbreakingly close to a title. The previous two times his following season was a winless disaster ('06 and '09).' This, along with the recent slump of Jimmie's challengers in recent years (Carl being one of them, he had a winless 2009 after winning 9 times in '08 along with Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin and Mark Martin) makes me wonder how 2012 will be for Carl. 'After winning 9 races and coming close to the championship in 2008 and then being kicked off the #99 in favor of the big money from Aflac, Office Depot gets itself a championship before Carl officially does.' I actually thought about this while watching the race and wondered, 'I wonder what Carl will think if Tony wins the championship with his old sponsor'. Turns out that was exactly what was about to happen. 'I don't expect anything from Brad next year. Sure, I could be wrong, just as I was about the way 2011 would turn out for him, but the fact is Penske cars are wildly inconsistent (just look at Kurt's 2011 season) which doesn't give me much hope for him.' As has already been mentioned, Penske seems to be shying away from their pattern of being good one year then so-so the next. Since their disaster year of 2008 ended, the #2 car has won multiple races every year with Kurt/Brad, and both Penske cars won multiple times this year after they fixed the team issues and got Brad on even footing with Kurt. Plus, as has also been mentioned, the field will be watered down next year, and although there is a chance Penske could fall behind, I don't think they'll fall too far behind like they have in the past. 'His driving at Homestead was Dale Earnhardt caliber.' Definitely. Dale was the first person I thought of when Tony willed that car right to the win and championship. Everything looked to be completely in Carl's favor, but Tony still showed that same spirit of not throwing in the towel that Dale always did and it got him the title. People talk about comparing Kyle Busch to Dale Sr, but people like Tony, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson are lot more worthy of that comparison in my opinion. Sure, Tony's personality is nowhere near the same as Dale's, and neither are Jeff's or Jimmie's but their drive sure is. However, I must say that I don't like how Darian Grubb lost his position as crew chief after they won the championship. If I were Tony, I'd be fighting hard to keep him on. 212. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, if it's going to put up those question marks when I quote someone I'm going to stop typing my posts on Microsoft Word Processor. The only reason I did it here was because I didn't want to keep scrolling up and down. 213. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeremy Mayfield: Actually was a pretty talented driver, but he wasted even more talent than Kyle Busch or Keven Harvick thanks to being a headcase and doing drugs." I have always wondered just how much Jeremy could have accomplished had he not burned his bridges with the competitive teams he was with. Sure, he was never top dog at Penske nor at Evernham but had he stuck around those organizations long enough he might have been eventually. His problem was being a pain in the ass when it came to team morale. As far as the drug situation with him goes, I don't buy that he did drugs while he was driving for Penske or Evernham otherwise I'm sure it would have been found out and exposed then. But him doing meth since he was busted in 2009 is believable. 214. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to type Kevin Harvick, not Keven Harvick. 215. Bronco posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Final Cup race for UPS as a Cup primary sponsor and the end of Ragan's career in the #6 car. Both of them started off with a bang and ended with a whimper. UPS won 4 races with Jarrett in 2001 and looked like a championship threat until some bad luck in the summer, after which they never again had a season nearly as successful, bouncing around from RYR to MWR and finally RFR. The win at Daytona this summer was their first since the fall 2005 Talladega race. Ragan began his Roush career with a top 5 in the 2007 Daytona 500 and ended when the experimental engine in his ford expired. More than likely the final Cup race for Addington and Busch, who won four races in two seasons but stumbled in the chase and finished 11th in both of them. If Addington goes to Stewart's team then I don't see them having much of a chance to defend their championship since Addington has a mediocre record in the chase. On the other hand losing Addington would be a huge blow to Busch, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them move Paul Wolfe to his pitbox for 2012. It hasn't been announced yet, but Andy Lally will be the ROTY by default. He was slow all for much of the season but he was far more respectable than Conway. Dale Earnhardt Jr will also pick up his 9th consecutive MPD award for sure. 216. Brad24 posted: 11.22.2011 - 2:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now if points aren't found for Danica's no. 10 car, I don't think she'll have much trouble becoming the third woman to qualify for the Daytona 500, joining Janet Guthrie [1977, '80] and Shawna Robinson [2002], possibly even contending for the pole position, given Hendrick's strong qualifying runs at the plate tracks in recent years." What will most likely happen is that owner points from the 14 or 39 from 2011 will be given to Danica so that she will be guarantee a spot in the 500. I say that she will get Newman's points, Newman will get Stewart's, and Stewart will take the Danica's and use the past champion's provisional to get in. 217. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Either that Brad24, or Danica and Tony might simply switch points, if possible. One thing's for sure, you know they're not going to let her have to qualify her way in. 218. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing about some of those drivers you mentioned, Eric, is that Mayfield, Park, and Craven each suffered a significant concussion at least once in their careers. Mayfield's kept him out of the 2000 Brickyard 400 while he was driving for Penske, which he might have been the favorite to win, which also curtailed his career for a number of years, and quite possibly may have led to his drug use, much like what wound up happening to LeeRoy Yarbrough after his crash while trying to make the 1971 Indianapolis 500, which resulted in head trauma so significant, that it led to the mental illness that eventually killed him. Craven had at least two significant concussions that curtailed his career, which some, including Felix Sabates, thought would be a great one, and Park's head injury, suffered in a freak accident during a caution in a Nationwide race the day before the 2001 Southern 500 while contending for a top ten position in the Cup standings, effectively ended his career. And that was after recovering from a broken leg from a crash at Atlanta a month into his rookie season in 1998. So injuries from on-track incidents also led to the downfall of some of those drivers. As for Danica in the Daytona 500, I never thought about that points swap within the Stewart-Haas Racing organization, but that's also a possibility. In fact, that's the tactic Penske used to get Sam Hornish, Jr. into the 2008 Daytona 500, which left Bill Elliott and the Wood Brothers on the sidelines for that race, as Kurt Busch took the champion's provisional for that race. As for how hard Tony Stewart drove toward the end of the season. Let's remember how upset he was at the shenanigans that Ford, and specifically Jack Roush pulled at Talladega, so he drove his heart out to make sure that Ford and Roush wouldn't win the championship. Remember that Stewart lost his Talladega drafting partner [David Gilliland] due to those shenanigans, and he was none too happy about what happened regarding Trevor Bayne and Jeff Gordon at the end of that race, and put the blame on that squarely on Roush, as well. So he had a point to prove, and Stewart, much like his racing idol, A.J. Foyt, is not one you want mad at you, because getting him upset at you will only make him more determined, and Stewart had the bit in his teeth to make sure Roush didn't get the championship because of what happened at Talladega. 219. Brad24 posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCRandPenskeGuy: That would be a possibility as well. I said Newman because if she switched with Tony, suppose if both qualifying and practice get washed out, if she has Tony's points she would be on the pole. But she's only a partial schedule. Even though it would only be good for the first 5 races of the season. That's why I think it would make more sense for her to get Newman's points and for Newman to get Stewart's. Even though he probably won't have to rely on it, Stewart would still be guarantee a spot due to the past champions provisional. 220. Brad24 posted: 11.22.2011 - 4:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another milestone not yet mentioned. Stewart becomes the first driver since Terry Labonte in 1996 to win multiple titles with different car numbers. Labonte's first title in 1984 came driving the #44 for Billy Hagan, and his 2nd 1996 was in the #5 driving for Rick Hendrick. And of course Stewart's first two titles in 2002 and 2005 came while driving the #20 for Joe Gibbs, and his 3rd came as an owner-driver in the #14. 221. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about the titles with different teams, Brad24, is that Stewart and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. won theirs close enough together [six years between titles between different teams] that it was close to the same sport and era for their titles with their different teams. But in the case of Terry Labonte, his two titles with differnt teams [and he drove for three teams in between his two titles, including a second stint with the team that he won his first title with] came in two completely different eras of the sport. So much so, that it can be legitimately said that the sport in which he won his second title wasn't even the same sport in which he won his first, three presidential election years before. 222. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for an organization by organization outlook for 2012 and their chances for placing drivers in the Top 12: SHR: Should have little problem getting both drivers into the cha$e. Although Newman remains an enigma as he has for his entire career. Still, with the even more diluted fields of next year, a Top 12 after 26 races is well within grasp. And Tony could make the cha$e with his eyes closed. The only thing that has ever kept him out was a perfect storm of multiple failed attempts to be NASCAR's sherriff, a broken shoulder, and a midsummer slump. And he still would have got in that year had they expanded to 12 teams earlier. These organizational changes have me scratching my head. They were made well in advance of their amazing 5 wins in the final 10 run, and scream "premature panic move" to me. Plus we have to wonder how the Danica Factor will effect them. From the uncertainty of whether or not that car will run full time which leads to one of two distracting factors (having to qualify on time or having a part timer in the other races) to the certainty of her struggles in Cup, that is likely to tax the organization. I see them stepping back next year, but still a Top 5 team for Tony and a Top 12 team for Ryan. We can't discount the fact that this year it became pretty obvious that neither JJ nor Gordon were gonna contend for the title, and Tony's cars were suddenly consistently fast for the last 4 races. Hmmmmm. HMS: This team does not have two non contending seasons in a row. Remember their dreadful (for them) 2000 seasons? The next year Gordon kicked the shit out of everyone including RYR in their best season as a two car team (although '96 and '97 would have been epic if Ernie hadn't been irreversibly injured, or imagine of they could have had In His Prime Davey Allison and Uninjured Mature Ernie from '96 thru '01, YIKES!). JJ and Gordon could make the cha$e in a coma, Kasey will probably make it, and June may or may not depending on if Steve can keep him focused on not having disasterous days like he was able to do this year. Of course the question will become whether or not June's crew get frustrated by his inability to compete and run up front anywhere besides the plates and Martinsville, and their demotion back to the worst HMS team with Kasey and Kenny taking over the #5. But I am actually predicting a Jeff Gordon championship next season. UNLESS...... Chad moves to competition director and they somehow get Darian Grubb to take over the #48. Then I predict an obliteration by the 48 team. With JJ and Darian having something major to prove, and their proven ability to thrive as a duo (the first 4 races of '06), I think that duo would lay waste to the field. 223. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roush: I see a step back. They haven't had drivers put together two straight good seasons since Mark in '97 and '98 and Burton in '99 and '00. Other teams will catch up to the incredible horsepower advantage they had. Roush usually falls back after having something like that. I still see Carl and Kenseth easily making the cha$e. Biff is a bit of an unknown. He seems as agitated as ever with his situation. But he has the ability to do it. But I say he misses it, Matt wins twice and gets a Top 5 points finish, and Carl wins twice but finishes about 7th in the final rundown. The question will be how scaling back to 3 teams will affect them. I think it can have a positive effect not having to haul around Ragan's carcass. Also, what of the sponsor situation? And why can't Roush keep sponsors? Since 2000 Valvoline, Exide, Citgo, Dewalt, Grainger, National Guard, Irwin Tools, Sharpie, Crown Royal, Viagra, AAA, Office Depot, and Aflac have all left Roush. What's going on? Penske: Another team that would have to take a huge step back to miss the Top 12 with either of its drivers. But questions still remain. How will Kurt's new crew chief handle him? Can he deal with the constant verbal abuse over the radio that crosses the line even in the heat of the battle? Will his team finally mutiny against him? Will unrest from the #22 team hurt the whole organization? Will Roger Penske frame him for a felony? I think he makes the cha$e amid internal turmoil, buoyed by fast cars, but finishes 12th. And how will Brad do next year? Will he take another step forward by adding some more consistency to his great runs? Will him and Paul continue making progress as a power duo? I think so. Even after the incredible "Summer Of Brad" they didn't fall off too bad, running really good in all cha$e races except Charlotte and Texas. I predict 4 or 5 wins as they finish a distant 3rd to Gordon and JJ. 224. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gibbs: I mentioned them earlier by saying this: What do we make of JGR's outlook next year? Those TRD motors are not very good. That is a lot of progress they will need to make over 2 months, plus JGR as whole is looking rough for next year even without the TRD issue. First you have KyBu who will under an unbelievable microscope for at least the first 4 months next year due to his antics needing to be on his best behavior every single second with every slight boblle ready to be dissected to no end. Can he handle that? Second we have the continuing mess of the Denny/Ford combo. Then the 20 team issue. Where do I even start with that team? Is Zippy gonna leave? Is Home Depot gonna keep scaling back? Is Joey gonna get beaten up by his own team? I stand by it. Prediction: KyBu and Denny get in the cha$e with the two wildcard spots as Denny clinches his spot by winning Fall Richmond to go along with Spring Martinsville. KyBu wins Spring Bristol and Richmond. Neither do anything worth a shit in the final 10. They both wish they had the speed yet inconsistency of the old motors rather than the consistent mediocrity of TRD's. RCR: I'm gonna predict a disaster. With uncertainty of people in their positions already, this usually leads to bad seasons for RCR. Plus Richard will be most focused on his grandchildren which will lead to further dissention. Although they are losing a Cup team, they are adding two of Harvick's NWide teams, so they are basically expanding as an organization. RCR + expansion = disaster. We have 14 years of hard proof for this dating back to 1997. Menard will be Menard and Burton will see this late season momentum they developed as a distant memory. Meanwhile Kevin goes off the deep end. Every year he has to direct his anger towards somebody, and it will be at the organization again just like '05 and '09. Except Richard won't go into pampering mode this time because his priorities will lie with his grandchildren. I think it will get ugly. 225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) RPM: Ambrose will win Sears Point, and Dinger will break through at either Dover or Martinsville. Otherwise more mediocrity and they are placed way back on the back burner as Roush gets beaten up every week by HMS. Add in sponsorship uncertainty, and they will not factor for the Top 12. MWR: First off, the karma gods will beat them up for the disgrace of the Reut dismissal. For anyone who watched SPEED's postrace show after this race, even DW couldn't hide his disgust for how that situation went down. Truex will be pushed back to the third priority behind his higher profile teammates and won't be happy. Clint will be the latest victim of Mikey's to buy his snake oil and wonder what the hell he did. Over the hill Mark will crash a lot and not contend and he continues his Favre-esque career ending as he goes from univerally beloved to "just get the hell out of here already" from the fans. EGR: I don't think they will be as bad next year, but that is a HUGE leap if they want to be Top 12. Forget about it. Red Bull: Buying a NASCAR team right now is like buying AOL stock. I see them disappearing for good. So here is my Top 12 (in no particular order): Gordon, JJ, Kasey, Carl, Matt, Brad, KuBu, KyBu, Denny, June, Smoke, Ryan. Predicted champ: Gordon unless Darian becomes JJ's crew chief. 226. Brad24 posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @cjs3872: Good point. 227. Jocke Persson posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have been meaning to ask this for the duration of the entire season, but never got my thumb out. Why did the Moderator choose to take away the ability to get notified whenever a new post appears in a thread you have posted in before. It must be a year since this feature disappeared and I have really missed it. There must be hundreds of pages/threads where I have written something, and that has gotten new posts in them since, that I have no idea about. And that's too bad. 228. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Gordon's days of winning championships are over, and have been for several years now. Ever since he lost the championship to Jimmie Johnson in 2007, Gordon realized what his place at Hendrick is. In fact, I'm picking him NOT to even make the Chase next year, as of now, especially with Kasey Kahne joining the fold there. Remember, Alan Gustavson's magic only worked on Mark Martin for one year, and I think the same will be true with Gordon. One win next year will be about all he can hope for. Now, as for Roush losing sponsors, despite his teams consistent success speaks volumes about how companies simply don't want any part of him and his team. The fact that Trevor Bayne, who won the Daytona 500 and should be very marketable, was sponsored for FIVE races during the Nationwide season should say more than anything else on that subject. And that Roush might keep Bayne from even having a chance to defend his Daytona 500 win should also say something about him, not to mention that he prevented him from having a chance to win the fall race at Talladega, as well as strip David Gilliland, another Ford driver with another team from having a dependable drafting partner, should also speak volumes. And let's also not forget that Matt Kenseth, who has acheived all that Carl Edwards has yet to acheive [a championship and marquee victories], is also unsponsored for next year. Now, for what you're saying about EGR not being in the top 12 in order to make the Chase, they don't have to be. They only have to be in the top 20 with a couple of wins, and they could still make it that way. As for Richard Petty Motorsports, they'll have a chance to win as long as Marcos Ambrose stays in the fold, as he'll virtually guarantee them at least one win on the road courses. But as for Allmendinger, his regression in 2011 should raise alarms. Sure he finished higher in the points, but that was because he ran conservatively so that he could get to the finish of races. And remember that the shoddy pit crews that Petty regularly employs will also negatively affect them, despite the top flight crew chiefs Petty has. However, I think RCR may already be making a comeback as a group. Kevin Harvick is solid, as always, but Jeff Burton showed why he's still capable of wininng races during the Chase, and while Paul Menard remains a question mark at Childress, despite his win at Indy, the future is bright with Austin Dillon, who I believe will be in Cup in 2013, battling Ricky Stenhouse [and possibly others] for Rookie of the Year in 2013. But as they say, only time will tell. 229. Brad24 posted: 11.22.2011 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @RCRandPenske: "Either that Brad24, or Danica and Tony might simply switch points, if possible. One thing's for sure, you know they're not going to let her have to qualify her way in." I agree 100%. One way or another some crazy tactic will be pulled so she won't have to race her way in/get in on speed for the 500. The way it sounds, she will more than likely be full-time in Cup in 2013. The only thing that needs to happen now is for SHR to find a driver to fill in the seat for the races she won't drive. That way they can keep the #10 in the top 35. 230. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha youre funny CJS. I thought Stewarts days of winning championships were over too. Gordon has one more championship caliber year left and his place with hendrick is great. He has a lifetime contract and has nothing left to lose or prove to anyone. And not picking him to even make the chase is absurd. I hate fans like you who try to make Jeff Gordon sound worse off than he is. Is he the dominant driver he once was, hell no but hes still Jeff Gordon and still a solid Top Ten driver year after year. Jeff Gordon will be fine no matter how bad his crew chief or team may or may not be. 231. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, I thought Stewart's days of winning championship might have also been over, but only because he owns his race team, at least partly. But Stewart is THE top guy on his team, something that can't be said about Gordon, as hasn't been able to be said abot him for about six or seven years now. Actually, I think with Kahne moving over to Hendrick, that Gordon will become the no. 3 driver on the team behind Johnson and Kahne, and remember when Hendrick finished 1-2-3, Gordon was third then. And also remember that if history holds true, that Gordon may be in for rough sailing next year. Remember that the last time Hendrick added a new driver [Dale Earnhardt, Jr. in 2008], that Gordon had his first winless season since his rookie year [something I predicted would happen in May of that year], and that Alan Gustavson's magic worked on Mark Martin for only one year. Remember that Martin's fortunes plummeted in 2010. If the same thing happens again to Gordon next year, and I think it very well might, he'll be lucky to win a race, though I think he might squeeze out one win, and I don't, at this time, think he's even going to make the Chase next year. Remember that at one point in mid-season, Gordon was dangerously close to dropping out of the top 20 in points, and I think there's a possibility that could happen again next year. 232. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my take in full time organization by organization outlook for 2012 and their chances for placing drivers in the Top 12: Front Row Racing:no chance of a chase. Team might get a top 10 in plate racing and that is it. Robby Gordon Racing:team should start park if they are still in Nascar Full time. TRG:Might pull off a top 10 at a plate race and that is it with the right driver. Tommy Baldwin, Jr.: Might even get a top 5 at plate track and that is it. FAS Lane Racing: don't expect them to get a top 10 at all. Germain Racing: They could get a top 10 finish at at plate track, but 25 in owners points would be like a win for them. Red Bull Racing:if team is bought, it shouldn't have a driver in the chase, but Cole Whitt gets rookie of the year. Cole Whitt is too green for getting into the chase and Vickers is an underachiever. JTG-Daugherty Racing: team will finish higher in standings, but a top 25 points finish is the highest it could go. Team could get a top 10 once in a while and that is it during a cup season. Furniture Row Racing : Regan Smith has a small chance getting into the chase in 2012 because a top 20 finish in the first 26 races isn't out of the question. What I am saying if the team has a cup win in first 26 races, they could get into the chase if Regan is top 20 in points. 233. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MWR: a chance to have in the chase. Truex could have a down year next year because team has expanded to 3 teams with the 3rd team being part time. Clint Bowyer could get into the chase since he is a good plate driver. Mark Martin/Micheal Waltrip might combine for 5 top 10's at best. Mark is washed up. RPM : has a hot for getting a driver in the chase. Ambrose is going to win at road course and could get into the chase as a result if he is in the top 20. A.J. Allmendinger should show slight improvement next year although getting a win isn't out of the question. EGR: Only shot any of there drivers get into the chase to to win a race. Montoya has a regressed as a driver. I wouldn't be shocked if he wins a road course race. If Montoya doesn't get a win before the chase, expect a top 20 in points. Jamie should get a top 20 in points and maybe a win at a plate track. 234. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCR: Harvick makes into the chase. Expect him to win races in 2012 and could finish in top 5 points end of the year. Jeff Burton appears to be on the upside, but the question remains if making a crew chief change during the off season will set him back. If Crew chief Change doesn't set him back, he could make the chase depending if he wins a race. Paul is not going to make the chase, but getting a win isn't out of the question. The big question is how focus the organization with be with them fielding Nationside teams besides Richard having his 2 Grandsons in his organization as drivers now. JGR: Not going to win the chase. Denny and Kyle will make the chase with wins, but the problems goes to the fact they will have TDR engines. Joey is going to be replaced at the end of the 2012 by one of the following drivers: Ryan Truex, Trevor Bayne (could happen if Roush releases him), Almirola, or Alliger. Stewart Haas: both drivers should be in the chase. Newman could get a top 10 finish in points and is good enough to get a win. Stewart shouldn't be 2012 champion because of crew chief change and organization changes. Danicia shouldn't get a top 10. Penske: Both drivers should get in the chase. Kurt top 10 in points isn't out of the question. Brad is going to the be a threat for the title and wouldn't be shocked if is a runner up. Roush: All 3 could get in. Edwards should have down year despite having a win for 2012. Matt is going to be the title threat for Roush in 2012. Biffle could get into the chase if he gets a win. Hendrick: 3 could get in. Kasey is my pick for cup champion. My reasoning is he has the capabilities of winning 4 races in the chase based on the tracks in the chase. Jeff is going to win a couple races at least, but team is going falter in the chase again. Jimmie Johnson isn't going to win the chase next year and I expect the same issues this year happen in 2012 if Chad is the crew chief. Dale Jr. could improve slightly like he did for this year and has a chase to make the chase if he wins a race. 235. webmaster posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @JockePersson: We don't require people to sign in or have an ID or email address in order to leave comments, therefore there is no way to notify anyone. 236. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my predictions for the winner of the majors in cup: Daytona 500 - Tony Stewart or Kevin Harvick. Southern 500 - Kevin Harvick. Kevin did well here in 2012 before getting into a mess with Kyle. Coco Cola 600 - Kasey Kahne or Matt Kenseth. Brickyard 400 - Harvick, Stewart, or Kahne. 237. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I hope you are just trying really hard not to jinx Jeff (which I completely understand if you are). Not making the cha$e next year? Have you taken a look at the roster for next season? The way I see it, only 14 other drivers don't fall in the category of "not a snowball's chance in Daytona Beach in July of making the cha$e" next year: JJ, Kasey, Gordon, Matt, Carl, Biff, Smoke, Ryan, Brad, KuBu, KyBu, Denny, Harvick, and Burton. You don't think he can beat at least 3 of them? I think Mark's fall off after '09 with Gustafson was due to a number of issues not related to Alan. First off, they gave their lead engineer and several others to help out Dale Jr's cadaver after his disaster of a year in '09. Secondly, Mark's ability as a driver has eroded as we have seen this year. Between Father Time catching up to him and the fact that being aggressive is as important as ever in NASCAR and he has always been way too conservative, he just lost it. Next year in the #00 will be a disaster. He's gonna have a "Willie Mays in '73" season, if only Willie were on the '62 Mets instead of the NL champ '73 Mets. So I think Jeff and Alan will actually take a step forward. And I certainly don't think his title days are behind him. Age certainly isn't an issue, him and Tony are the same age. And we saw at Phoenix and Atlanta he can still will a car like Tony did at Homestead. Based on my projections of Roush, SHR, Gibbs, and RCR taking a step back next year, and Penske probably staying put, I think Jeff wins his 5th. Unless, as I mentioned earlier, Chad goes to competiton director at HMS and Darian Grubb takes the crew chief job with JJ. Then those two will unleash holy hell. First of all, HMS will step back up next year as they always do after down seasons (for them). Secondly, JJ and Darian will have a ton to prove. JJ will finally feel the sting of watching somebody else celebrate the top prize again and remember how much that sucks. And Darian being let go, and not offered a chance to stay on even after the incredible 5 of 10 stretch? Throw in the fact those two know each other well from the past (highlighted by Darian taking over as crew chief when Chad was suspended for the first 4 races of '06 and winning the Daytona 500, Vegas, and two finishes of 2nd and 6th) and JJ might get another 10 win season. "Now, for what you're saying about EGR not being in the top 12 in order to make the Chase, they don't have to be. They only have to be in the top 20 with a couple of wins, and they could still make it that way." That's true. I just think Denny and KyBu will get those wildcard spots. I see them starting next year terribly with the exception of the short tracks. Those TRD motors need a lot of work. I also don't see many surprise winners next year. Now everyone knows about pit strategy and how to work it. We saw that in the last 10, even the top guys were saving gas all the time. Plus I think the distance between the haves and have nots will continue to grow leaving them almost no chance by the end of races. I agree with everything you said about Roush. 238. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Eric, if Harvick does win the Southern 500, either next year or sometime else in the future, he will join a very exclusive club of drivers that have won ALL of the crown jewels of the sport, as he already has a win in all of the others. And remember that the list of drivers that have won all the crown jewels is missing some of the great champions, including Cale Yarborough, Bill Elliott, Junior Johnson, Fred Lorenzen, and Benny Parsons, among many other greats of the sport. Usually, it takes even the greatest drivers a long time to complete the circuit. We all know how long it took Dale Earnhardt, Sr., Bobby Allison, and Buddy Baker to join the group by winning the Daytona 500. But David Pearson was missing TWO of jewels before 1976, when he won both his only Daytona 500 and the first of three Southern 500s. Richard Petty had to wait until 1975 to become a member of this club, because it took him that long to win the World 600. And Darrell Waltrip didn't actually join the group until his final victory, the 1992 Southern 500. Neither Yarborough or Elliott are in this select fraternity because neither ever won the 600, and Lorenzen isn't a member either because he, like Kevin Harvick, never won the Southern 500. Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson are the only exceptions to this, as both needed only five years to capture ALL of the sport's biggest races at least once. Honorable mention goes to LeeRoy Yarbrough, who captured all the sport's three existing crown jewels in 1969, though he never won at Talladega, which held a crown jewel event for the first time in 1970. 239. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also it's official, Addington has left Kurt. Who will replace him? It will have to be somebody who can completely check his self respect at the door. Although Kyle is probably the most immature driver in the sport, Kurt is by far the biggest asshole (there is a YouTube clip of him cussing out ESPN and Jerry Punch as they are trying to set up an interview after his tranny failed, leading to Jerry Punch, who has seen it all, just leaving). I don't see them getting a top of the line crew chief for that reason. There is simply no excuse for Kurt's behavior. I wonder if seeing Brad not only do better than him as a driver, but become the beloved driver of the Blue Deuce that Kurt tried to become for 5 years and failed, is working on him. This worries me for Brad's future. Luckily he goes out of his way to not step on Kurt's toes because he knows he needs him. 240. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Alan Gustavson has not proven that he can be trusted in the big situation yet, something I've mentioned numerous times. But the fact remains that Gordon will most likely be the no. 3 driver at Hendrick next year, so if he makes the Chase, he's likely to barely get in. Remember that Martin actually began to fade late in 2009 when he was battling for the championship. I agree that Martin may regret his decision to run part-time with MWR next year, but I think one reason he's doing so is to develop other, younger drivers, like he did with Regan Smith when both were at Ginn's team in 2007-'08. However, while age is not yet a problem with Gordon, his age in racing is a higher number than his chronological age. In other words, even though he's 40 years of age, because he started in Cup so soon, it's more like he's 47 or 48 when it comes to number of years in the Cup series in terms of age back in the 80s and early 90s. See, I believe a driver begins to fade at about his 16th or 17th year in the Cup series, or at 500-525 starts, and there's lots of proof in that in just about every driver that's been in Cup that long. For instance, the last truly great year that both Darrell Waltrip and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had came in their 17th year. Bobby Allison never had another great year after 1983, which was his 18th or 19th year running on the circuit. David Pearson's last great year was 1976, which was his 17th year. 2009 was Jeff Gordon's 17th year and he finished third in the points, and was fading down the stretch that year, as well. Now there are, of course, exceptions to this, and Martin woud be one of those, but generally, a driver has 15-17 prime racing years in NASCAR's top series, and Gordon is now past that, which is why I think that 2011 was his last really good year, but I could be mistaken about that. Just look at how very few drivers are really forces in the sport once they get past 550 career starts and Gordon is now past 650. 241. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First off, I meant to add June as the only drivers with a prayer of making next year's cha$e, even though it will have to be like he got in this year: consistency over any form of brute power. But my point about Jeff stands. As far as Jeff in his 17th season, you have to remember he started way younger than the others. Also, a big reason for Bobby's decline after '83 was the teams he was with. DiGard's years of shady business finally caught up with them in '84 and boiled over in '85 leading Bobby to walk away from them (and forfeit a lot of owed money due to the scumbag contracts Jim Gardner drew up) and try it on his own, at one point even having an unlikely union with Maurice Petty, once his mortal nemesis. Then he joined the Stavolas and won 3 of the 4 races they would ever win. And Dale's decline was due to injury. 242. Scott B posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Media reports are coming in about substantial downsizing at Roush today. Regardless of how you feel about Jack and his drivers, that's a shame for the families that are getting this news just before Thanksgiving. :( 243. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, about your point about Jeff being in his 17th season in 2009, and doing so at a younger age. That was EXACTLY my point. His birth certificate may say he's 40, but in NASCAR years he's more along the lines of 45-47 years old, since he started in the Cup series at 21. Last Sunday's race was Gordon's 653rd, tying him with J.D. McDuffie on the all-time list for 18th place, and very few drivers have ever excelled past that point in their careers. Like I said, the last great year for Earnhardt, Waltrip, and Pearson was their 17th, the last great year for Allison was his 18th, and the last really big season for Richard Petty was, like Earnhardt, Waltrip, and Pearson, his 17th, as well. In fact, aside from Petty, no driver past 600 career starts has EVER won a series championship, and Terry Labonte was the only one other than Petty to win a championship after his 500th start, doing so in 1996. That's why I say Gordon's championship-winning days are past him. I use history as my guide on many of my statements, and this is just another case of that. Gordon will win more races, but he'll never win another championship. He should reach 350 top five and 500 top ten finishes, and has an outside shot at 100 wins, though 90 is more reasonable, but another top three to five points finish is, in my mind, highly doubtful. Now if I'm wrong, I'll freely admit so, but history tells you that another high points finish, especially in the current Chase format, is extremely unlikely. If history is any indicator, he'll probably win at least two or three of the crown jewels one more time, but another championship, especially given his current position in the Hendrick hierarchy, is something I'd rate at no more than a 10 percent chance. But I do think he'll eventually grab a fourth Daytona 500 win, joining Petty and Cale Yarborough as the third to win that event at least four times, a seventh Southern 500 win, which would match Richard Petty's record for most wins in a single 500-mile race [though two of his seven Daytona 500 wins were shortened], and a Brickyard 400 win he almost got last year that would put him in a class all his own at Indy, with five wins there. 244. Lordlowe posted: 11.22.2011 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey Cjs Dale Sr managed to finish 2nd in points in his 22 and final season in 2000 245. Talon64 posted: 11.22.2011 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As long as the #24 team stays 100% intact for next year, unlike what happened to the #5 after 2009, then I'm with DSFF on Jeff Gordon contending for the championship next season. In fact I think there's a good chance that this could be another 2009 with HMS finishing 1-2-3 in the standings with Gordon, JJ and Kahne in any order. For SHR, Newman's established himself as a 9th-10th place guy who can win a race a season so I don't see how that'll change in 2012. But who knows how Stewart and the #14 will do in their title defense since we don't even know who the crew chief is going to be. Greg Zippadeli, a reunion with Smoke? Steve Addington, who Tony's got some familiarity with when they were both at JGR? Or will a miracle happen and Grubb stays on? Fortunately, Tony's now proven he can win and contend no matter who his crew chief is so multiple wins and at least top 7 in points is a really good bet. Roush going down to just 3 full time teams will hurt, but they've still got the best engine package in NASCAR so that could still keep them pretty close to where they were this year. I'll go against the trend and say that Carl should win more races next season, and Kenseth will contend for the title. But who knows how Biffle will run. "Roush: I see a step back. They haven't had drivers put together two straight good seasons since Mark in '97 and '98 and Burton in '99 and '00." I'd put Matt Kenseth's '06 and '07 out there as two straight good seasons; 4 wins and 2nd in points in '06, then 2 wins and 4th in points in '07. RCR's back down to 3 full time cars again, with Austin Dillon running some races in the now-part-time 4th car. Harvick/Burton/Bowyer last season seemed like a pretty potent 3-some that you could expect some success from, but Harvick/Burton/Menard just has me worried for some reason. Menard had a great first year at RCR by his standards but I think he's hit his ceiling as far as results go. Burton's not getting any younger, and with Gil Martin likely leaving the #29 I'm pessimistic of Harvick's chances of stringing together 3 straight great seasons. JGR's the biggest wild card of the bunch, with the full switch to TRD engines which is more of a step back than anything, the continued unrest with the #11 team and Kyle Busch and his usual issues. But Kyle and Denny are two of the best drivers in NASCAR so hopefully that'll keep them winning races and making the Chase. But Joey Logano needs to look at what's happening to David Ragan right now, because Logano's career trajectory is almost a perfect match for Ragan's; decent rookie season, a breakout sophomore campaign, then some major regression in the 3rd year. Ragan sucked some more in his 4th year and then his 5th year was still lackluster compared to his teammates, so Logano's going to need to start contending for wins and the Chase in 2012 or else Ragan's fate could also be Logano's. "And how will Brad do next year? Will he take another step forward by adding some more consistency to his great runs? Will him and Paul continue making progress as a power duo? I think so. Even after the incredible "Summer Of Brad" they didn't fall off too bad, running really good in all cha$e races except Charlotte and Texas. I predict 4 or 5 wins as they finish a distant 3rd to Gordon and JJ." I wish I was that confident for Brad's chances next season. Penske's done away with significant season-to-season inconsistency, and Brad's going to have a FAR better start next season which should help him make the Chase easily. But I'm seeing 2-3 wins and 7th-10th in points next season, mostly because Kurt Busch single-handedly ripping apart the #22 team is going to be a strain on Penske next season. I really feel that Allmendinger's finally going to get his first Cup win, although it could be anywhere from Dover to an intermediate track to an RP race. But I think Ambrose could really surprise next season; you might as well write him in for a road course win now that he's finally broken through in Cup, and he's got a good shot at picking up an oval win too. 2-3 wins could be in the cards for him next year, and that would get him in the Chase as a wild card. Just as long as the #9 team can become more consistent. MWR will be mostly the same; Truex will be top 20, Bowyer will be top 15 as usual, and Mark Martin will struggle in the #00. And hopefully they won't win a race, because karma is a bitch. But I'm wondering who they'll get to drive the #00 aside from Mark and Michael Waltrip. Jamie McMurray and JPM should be back in the top 20 in points at least, and the plate tracks are going to be their best chance at winning races. 246. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2011 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon will be fine. Age is still on his side and I think Kasey will have a good year next year but not as good as everyone says. Kahne has never been a consistent driver and is not as good as drivers like Gordon, Stewart, Johnson, Edwards, Hamlin, and the Busch brothers. I think Hamlin will be champion next year and Gibbs as a whole will be back. Heres my chase predictions for 2012: Champion: Denny Hamlin 2nd. Jimmie Johnson 3rd. Carl Edwards 4th. Kyle Busch 5th. Jeff Gordon 6th. Matt Kenseth 7th. Tony Stewart 8th. Kasey Kahne 9th. Kurt Busch 10th. Greg Biffle 11th. Kevin Harvick 12th. AJ Allmendinger 247. RacingRocks57 posted: 11.22.2011 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can see a quiet driver with potential sitting there in 13th place. His name is Regan Smith. He has virtually zero followers, but with his win this season he may be a better driver if he races next year. 26th in championships is OK for a driver like him. Just wanted to remind you of him. 248. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A.J. Allmendinger in the Chase next year? Surely, you jest, BON GORDON. I think he'll be lucky to finish next year in the 43 car, because if his performance goes next year the same way it did this year, he'll be looking at 20th in points, at best, because finishing 15th in points was the BEST he could possibly have done this year, based on his on-track performance. You might be right on the others, but not Allmendinger. If a Petty driver was going to contend for a Chase berth next year, it would be Marcos Ambrose, who outran Allmendinger most of the year, and quite badly at quite a number of races this year. The only thing keeping Ambrose down in the point standings was a high number of crashes and mechanical problems, such as the blown engine in the finale at Homestead. Frankly, the only thing separating Allmendinger from guys like David Ragan and Joey Logano was that he brought a 15th place car home 15th most of the year, instead of making mistakes by trying to get more than what was there, as Ragan has a habit of doing, and that Logano has been doing more than his share of. And age is NOT on Gordon's side, because there is such a thing as being a young 40 and an old 40, and to me, Gordon is an old 40, as far as NASCAR drivers go, while Tony Stewart is a much younger 40. You can't tell me for an instant that Gordon would have been able to do the same things that Stewart did, because he's just not aggressive any more, especially on restarts, and that's really where Stewart beat everyone else. Gordon, who has never been known as one that has been aggressive on restarts, has been even more conservative in on restarts in the last several years than he was previously. Everyone talks about how slow his car is on newer tires, but that's just Gordon being too conservative on restarts. If you remember back to his Atlanta victory, his car was as good on new tires when he stopped under green as everyone else was, if not better, but he's always had this thing about not taking chances in groups of cars, and instead, waiting for the field to single out before making his moves, where guys like Stewart, Johnson, Edwards, Harvick, and the Busch brothers will take chances. Let's not forget that Gordon has lost two of the last four races at Richmond due to poor restarts. Otherwise, he might have won both and would definaltely have won one of them. 249. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, You forgot to mention it possible for Jeff Gordon being not as aggressive due to a nasty crash he had at Las Vegas in 2008 that gave his back a lot of problems for a time including back trauma. Nasty crashes have caused drivers be less aggressive on the track before like Darrell Waltrip after his 1983 Daytona 500 crash. Darrell Waltrip became a more conservative driver after that crash. 250. Eric posted: 11.22.2011 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RacingRocks57, I have been fully aware of Regan Smith before you mentioned him and that is why I mentioned a top 20 in points isn't out the question and go to the chase if he has a win while being high enough in points after 26 races. I don't know about him being 13th in points. The team has glass ceiling of being 15th in points if they don't win a cup race in the first 26 races. The 78 has the issues of being a single car team and being located in Denver. 251. Cooper posted: 11.22.2011 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Age isn't a factor I don't think.... Sterling Marlin in 2001 and 2002 was 44 and 45 years old respectfully. And this was where he had his best two year run in his career. And his career started in 1976. So just because Jeff has been doing this for a long time, doesn't mean he's incapable of running for a championship. As long as Jeff gets good equipment and his team matches his talent, a championship isn't out of the question for him and the #24 team. 252. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And not just that crash at Las Vegas in 2008, Eric, but several other hard crashes, dating back to Gordon's crash at Texas in 1999. then there was that terrible crash he had at Pocono in 2006 when the brakes went out on his going into turn one, the crash he had at the Coca-Cola 600 in 2007 when the back end of his car got airborne, the bad crash he had at Watkins Glen in 2009, not to mention the after effects that all the drivers at the time had when Dale Earnhardt was killed [Rusty Wallace, for one, said that he was affected a lot by that incident]. But Gordon has always been on the conservative side on restarts, even before those crashes occurred, so that argument doesn't fly. Go back to the 1999 Daytona 500 and the few laps after the final restart for a perfect example of this. Earnhardt was right in front of Gordon on that restart, in about eighth and ninth positions. Earnhardt was third in just one lap, while Gordon took his time getting to the front, but got there just the same, passed and then held off Earnhardt as they finished 1-2. Gordon has always been a more tactical racer than most of his drivers than he has been a charger, but in recent years, that attitude has hurt him a lot more often than it has helped him. Waltrip was the same way. People think of Waltrip as having a fear of the high speed tracks after his 1983 Daytona 500 crash, but I don't see it that way at all. After all, he finished third in each of the next three Daytona 500s, leading most of the last 100 miles in the 1984 race. And he was the winningest driver in 1984. The downfall of Waltrip's career was that Junior Johnson's equipment became less superior than it's competition, then he had trouble adapting to Hendrick Motorsports' multi-car way of thinking. But Waltrip never did very well at tracks like Daytona or Michigan, even before his 1983 crash at Daytona, which came the same week as heavy wrecks by three other drivers, including Bobby Allison. Johnson always liked his drivers to be on the lead at all times, while Waltrip always seemed to like being off the lead for great portions of the race, not concerned with where he was running until after last pit stops were made. And again, this racing strategy pre-dates his crash in the 1983 Daytona 500. As long as he was within striking distance, that was fine with Waltrip, and Junior Johnson had a hard time dealing with Waltrip's racing philosophy for quite a while, especially after all the years he had Cale Yarborough, who's driving style was a duplicate of Junior's own driving style. 253. Spen posted: 11.22.2011 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think a crew chief change will work wonders for Burton. Historically, it seems to me that Burton is a prime example of what I call "newleywed syndrome". Look at his run with Todd Berrier. When he took over, Burton finished out the year with back-to-back second place runs, after a terrible year, and carried that momentum to a chase run in 2010. Which actually was a very good year for him, as he led more laps than he had in years, and actually had a higher driver rating than Harvick until the chase. A combanation of bad luck and Berrier's miraculous ability to adjust a car out of contention kept him out of victory lane, and the frustration of that, plus horrendous luck in the chase, led to this total stinkbomb of a year, in which he basically gave up completly. Until they changed crew chiefs, after which he started running respectably again. And it was the same story with Scott Miller. After working well together for the first few years, they had a dissapointing chase in '08, followed by RCR declining as a whole, and 2009 ended up being a disaster. Until a crew cheif change. Or the first few weeks at RCR in 04? From that, you'd have thought RCR was much better than Roush that year. While he doesn't publically trash his team like Harvick or Kurt, Burton has a tendancy to let bad runs get to him, causing him to stay at that level until something major changes. Even with Frank Stottard, they were clearly much better at the start of their run than they were at the end. But when something has recently changed, that's when Burton starts showing what he's truly capable of. Harvick's harder to predict. Yeah, three good years in a row is hard to imagine, but I think that RCR is going to be better on the whole. With Gibbs, Roush, SHR, and possibly Penske declining to a degree, they've got a good shot at a resurgence. At EGR, I think some of you are underestimating Montoya a bit. He did manage to keep out of the garage all year, and if he keeps that up, and combines it with some speed, he might be in contention for a chase spot. Probably won't make it in, but he could have a chance. McMurray I'm not so sure about. It seems like his bad start to the year casued him to regress back to 2006 "I don't belong here" Jamie Mac. While he can't really do any worse next year (just because of there being fewer cars to contend with), the only way I see him making a chase run is if he somehow wins the 500. If he can do that, we will a whole new side of Jamie. But if, as I expect, he crashes out at Daytona, expect another long year. I basically agree with cjs about Gordon's championship hopes. Another thing to consider is that he's been racing since he was four. Technically speaking, he's been racing longer than Richard Petty had by 1992. That wears on you after a while. This year, he had a nice resurgence with Alan, but I don't think it'll carry over too much. I don't see him missing the chase, or going winless, but I don't see him doing any better than Tony did in 2010. I'm not sure I'd classify Tony as a "young 40". Until ten weeks ago, he hadn't really been running up to par for two years. However, take it from someone who has passed that age, there are days when you feel forty, and days when you don't. And sometimes certain events can help trigger a "rejuvination moment". Gordon had that this summer. Unfortunately for him, it was worn out after Richmond. Tony had that moment when he stole the win at Chicago. The only realy difference between his rejuvination and Gordon's, it that Tony's timing was better. And Gordon's chances of having similar timeing is slim, as he isn't as good in autumn as he is the summer. I could use Richard Petty as a comparison as well. In 1978, Petty wasn't running very good at all. Yeah, Dodge's failings as a manufactuer were partly to blame, but Richard himself seemed to me to be mostly "going through the motions" as it were. Heck, I was convinced he'd never win again. Then the Daytona 500 fell into his lap. Suddenly, Petty had his confidence back. And late in the year, when he smelled championship, it was like the clock had turned back. On Allmendinger, I don't forsee a chase spot, but I don't see him losing his job, even if he doesn't win. Petty's always been a fan of saving money, and a driver who brings it home every week would suit him just fine. DSFF: "or imagine of they could have had In His Prime Davey Allison and Uninjured Mature Ernie from '96 thru '01, YIKES!" I highly doubt that would have happened. "Mr. Conservative" Robert Yates, starting a second team without absolutly needing to? If Ernie hadn't made a miraculous recovery, leaving Yates with two drivers and one car, he'd have never started a second team in '96. He probably wouldn't start one until after Gibbs did. And even then, his driver would likely have been Kenny Irwin. And by that point, Ford would have seen the writing on the wall, and thrown their full support behind Roush long before 2002. So even as a multi-car team, they wouldn't be serious championship contenders. Plus, I don't think Davey ever really recovered from the concussion in '92. I don't think he would have had as good of a year in '94 as Ernie had. The person who does become a champion if Davey lives? Mark Martin. With all of Ford's support going to Roush instead of being split with Yates, Mark would have a great shot at either '97 or more likely, '99. And had he won a title, he'd have retired happy in 2006, and David Reutimann would have a ride for next year. 254. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Cooper, although he made his debut in 1976, Marlin didn't really get a full-time ride until 1983, when he was 27. The same with Dale Earnhardt. He didn't get a full-time ride until he was 27. Waltrip was 26 when he got on the circuit in 1973. Rusty Wallace was 28 when he got his first full-time ride in 1984. Notice a pattern here? And not counting his first failed attempt in NASCAR in the early 80s, Mark Martin didn't get a full-time ride until he was 28. Bill Elliott didn't join the circuit on a full-time basis until he was 27. Dale Jarrett was even older than that when he got his shot with Cale Yarborough in 1989. He was 32. So when these drivers turned 40, they were what I call a young 40, with lots of racing ahead of them. But making his full-time debut at 21, Jeff Gordon is what I call an old 40. Tony Stewart is a young 40, as he started his full-time status in NASCAR at 27, like most of the others did. most of the current generation of NASCAR drivers will be what I call an old 40 when they get there, assuming that they're still competing at that age. Age aside, I still think a key milestone is 500 starts. When a driver makes his 500th start, that usually signals that they're on the downside of their career, whether they know it or not. Like I said, only one driver I know of other than Richard Petty has ever won the championship after making his 500th start, and that was Terry Labonte in 1996. And even Labonte had not yet made his 550th career start when that season ended. As I mentioned, Gordon is at 653 starts, well more than 100 more than Labonte at the time of the end of his 1996 championship season. That's why I say that his days of winning championships are over. He may still win races, and I think he's still got some more big race wins ahead of him, as I think he still has one more Daytona 500 [which would be his fourth], Southern 500 [which would be his seventh], and Brickyard 400 win [which would be a historic fifth at Indy] ahead of him but his days of winning championships are over. I'd like to see him get to 100 wins and get another title, but as long as there's a Chase, Gordon, one of the poorest finishers in the history of the sport, will never again win a championship. 255. Watto posted: 11.22.2011 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have said it before and I'll say it again why on earth does Dale Jr still have a job" I can certainly answer that since I didn't see anyone else. Dale Earnhardt Jr is nowhere near as bad as people like you make him out to be. Last year, Jr finished 21st in points with Lance McGrew. This year, Mark Martin finished 22nd in points with Lance McGrew. It's not always the driver. Jr, while failing to meet expectations as far as winning a race this year, certainly came close a number of times. Ending up 7th in points after the struggles he had is certainly a step forward. Anybody who has the ability to finish 7th in Cup points deserves to have a job. If you want to argue otherwise, you're blinding yourself with hate. Hendrick cars finished 6th, 7th, 8th, and 22nd in points. Clearly the guy in 7th doesn't deserve a job, right? Let's forget that he's finished top 5 in points 3 times and has 18 wins to his credit. Clearly he's talentless. I'm SO SICK of that argument. ---------- "When you can run that bad for 26 races" Let's be honest, though. Tony would've finished 3rd in points had there not been a Chase and all the results remained the same. His first 26 races weren't "that bad", but they weren't at a level that you usually expect Tony Stewart to be at. ---------- "And speaking of the Daytona 500, do you think Jack Roush is upset at Trevor Bayne now for not allowing Carl Edwards to pass him on the final straightaway of this year's race, because if he had, Edwards would be celebrating the championship right now. I think he is, and I look for Bayne to be replaced, for sure in the Wood Brothers' car, possibly because of that alone" Dude, Jack Roush is not out to get Trevor Bayne! Do you really think Jack is so devoid of logic that he will hold it against Trevor for not letting Carl go on the final straightaway of the Daytona 500 when Carl had that run? That's absolutely ludicrous! With all of your posts on the subject, I just see you try and try to paint Jack Roush to be way worse than he actually is. I'm not trying to be rude but I'm so tired of reading that crap. If Jack had it out for Trevor Bayne, he wouldn't have funded that 16 car out of pocket for most of the year and Trevor would've lost his ride a long time ago. 256. 00andJoe posted: 11.22.2011 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an interesting question... If Roush does in fact try to freeze out FRM, might they decide to change manufacturers? 257. RacingRocks57 posted: 11.22.2011 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I must have wrote the sentence wrong. I meant to say his page said he finished 13th in this race. It said on his page that he finished 26th in the points so thats what I ment to say. Sorry. 258. RacingRocks57 posted: 11.22.2011 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops. Mispelled meant. 259. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2011 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon is not an old 40. Time is still on Gordons side. He can still have ten more great years and he wont be around for ten more years so he'll stay competative. Gordon can show aggression if he has the car. Look at Atlanta, he held off Jimmie Johnson in a ten lap shootout with a loose car. I think Tony looked great partially because of the equipment. But he does get up on the wheel more than most including Gordon. Gordon is fine, fine, fine. I promise. This is a dead discussion. If Gordon is in the best equipment and he and his crew can properly adjust the car theres nobody better than Jeff Gordon. Not Stewart, johnson, Edwards, or Kyle Busch. I will defend Gordon till the day i die and if you(cjs) dont pick him in your chase next year that will be a BIG mistake on your part. 260. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watto, Roush is not out to get Bayne, though he is likely going to deny him a chance to defend his Daytona 500 title next year, as well as possibly not allow him to run the non-points races for which he is eligible from that Daytona 500 victory, though Ford seems to have more of a stake in Bayne's future than that of Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. After all, Ford pretty much bankrolled Bayne's 2011 NASCAR season. What I was stating was that Roush is not going to allow ANY other Ford team he has his thumb under to compete with his own. Not the Wood Brothers. not Front Row Motorsports. Not any of the rest of them. Now, Richard Petty's team is a different story, since Roush doesn't have as much control over that team as he would like to think that he does, and never will as long as Petty is around. After all, no matter what anyone else says, Petty is firmly in charge there, and always has been, and always will be as long as he is physically able. And Spen, not only was Petty saddled with an uncompetitve car for most of 1978, he was also injured most of the year, starting with the effects of two serious crashes at Daytona in three days, one in the IROC race and the other in the Daytona 500, which might have been his best race that season, and things only got worse from there. Sure, the 1979 Daytona 500 landed in his lap, but he really wasn't that great for most of the season. But he used his and his team's vast experience to his advantage in the championship battle against Darrell Waltrip and DiGard Racing. And BON GORDON, I didn't pick Gordon for the Chase in 2010, either, but he made it. To me, he is a fringe driver these days, especially if comes to restarts. If a race comes down to a restart these days, he's sure to lose, it's that simple. As is the case if a race comes down to strategy, because his crew chief, while he undeniably sets up great cars, is one of the poorest strategists in the sport today. He would have been better suited to a crew chief role about 20 years ago, when race strategy was far less a factor than it is now. In fact, Gordon was the one driver that I didn't pick to make the Chase in 2010 that made it. The plain truth is that with Kasey Kahne coming aboard, he's going to be the third wheel over there, which is why if he makes the Chase, he'll be one of the last two or three in. Sure he has his great days, but you wonder what would have happened had there been late caution flags, which there wasn't any of in any of his three wins this past season. Had there been, he would most likely have been cooked, due to poor strategy and poor restarts. 261. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.22.2011 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 40 years old as a racecar driver isn't old, hell 52 isn't old (ask Harry Gant). Too me Jeff Gordn has about 5 years of COMPETEIVE racing left. 90 wins is within his reach and he can get that in 5 years. I think JG will retire before he becomes a has-been (like Ned Jarrett). Jeff Gordon will hang it up when he is ready and he isn't ready now. Dale Jr. has talent (18 Cup wins says so). He should already have a championship (2004) but its sad that he has wasted his prime. Now i liked Jr.s attitude at the 2nd Mville race. "no mercy on the dude in front of me." Now if he raced like that all the time, then well he would have more then 18 wins right now. I just wish Rick would sit his butt down and tell him "you are either a driver or you are a bar owner. Your choice." Put the ball in his court. btw if Jr. told me that he would rather be a bar owner, i'd say "your fired." 262. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about it is that 43 years old with 15 years in Cup isn't that old. Harry Gant, Mark Martin, Dale Earnhardt, and numerous others have proved that. but 40 years old with 20 years in Cup is old. I measure age as much by years in the series and starts as I do actual age. I think a driver becomes less competitve after 500-550 starts. History says that. Not including Richard Petty, because he was able to pilie up bigger stats because there were more races in a season until 1972, but only one driver, Terry Labonte has ever won a championship after his 500th start, and none has done it after making 550 starts. however, Gordon should get to 90 wins. If he doesn't, my statement about him being an old 40 will be more accurate than I thought, since he's just five away. See, one reason I believe that drivers have only 500-550 starts is because at that point in their career, their competitveness begins to dull, as they begin to take fewer and fewer risks on the track. In fact, to put that in perspective, I believe that Jimmie Johnson has only won four times since he made his 300th start, far below the 500 benchmark I mentioned. Now I think he'll have at least three more dominating years, but it seems odd that his winning began to diminish after he made his 30th start, though I think that's just coincidental, nothing more. So I think that 500 starts is more of a key figure as to where a driver stands in his career than actual age does. Of note, if Tony Stewart starts all 36 races next year, the 2012 season finale will be Stewart's 500th career start, as he sits at 464 now. Of course, this season's finale was Kurt Busch's 400th start, which was a disaster in more ways than one. One has to wonder how much longer Roger Penske will handle his petulant attitude, something Penske has traditionally frowned on over the years. Especially with more level-headed drivers like Bayne, Smith, Stenhouse, among others in lesser rides, or searching for rides, now that Busch's attitude has cost him his crew chief. The Roger Penske of old would have fired Busch a long time ago, as Penske prefers level-headed drivers. Guys like Donohue, Mears, the racing Unsers [especially Al, Sr. and Jr.] were perfect Penske drivers. Even Gary Bettenhausen fit the Penske mold more than Busch does today. Busch may rank up there with Bobby Unser and Paul Tracy as the most arrogant drivers that Penske has ever had. 263. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are some good points cjs, and the numbers certainly back up your point. But Jeff Gordon has been a test case for NASCAR from the moment he arrived. Prior to '93, no 21 year old was supposed to come in and immediately be given top dollar equipment. They weren't "ready for it" was the traditional thinking. 3 years later Jeff was hoisting that silver 25th anniversary Winston Cup trophy (prettiest trophy ever) after beating the guy who had won 6 of the previous 9 titles. 3 years after that he had the entire sport reeling, wondering what the hell just happened to them. To my eyes, Jeff still has "it", especially now that he is healthy again. Two of his wins this year at Phoenix and especially his Atlanta win after a duel with JJ on shredded tires showed me he can outrun anybody. Not only is he still good enough to beat the best, he still has that killer instinct, that ability to sniff the win, smell blood, and pounce. He's as good as ever, as smart as ever, and wants it as bad as ever. "I could use Richard Petty as a comparison as well. In 1978, Petty wasn't running very good at all. Yeah, Dodge's failings as a manufactuer were partly to blame, but Richard himself seemed to me to be mostly "going through the motions" as it were." He was also having major stomach ulcer issues which led to him not eating very well, which zapped his stamina which was paramount in the era of driving those tanks. And make no mistake, that Dodge Magnum was a TANK. "But I'm seeing 2-3 wins and 7th-10th in points next season, mostly because Kurt Busch single-handedly ripping apart the #22 team is going to be a strain on Penske next season." That is worrying the shit out of me too. Another aspect of this, he went to Penske so he could be the face of an organization. At Roush he kinda fell to the background and didn't like it. He wants to be out front. That is why, despite him constantly ragging Penske Racing, he kept signing extensions cause he got to be The Man there. Now Brad has taken that spot. He is the bright new face in the sport, seems a million times more suited to be the Miller Guy than Kurt ever was, and is related to in a way that Kurt never will be. Will he get jealous and take it out on Brad? Kurt can't just swallow his emotions. When he is ticked, he has to explode and make sure everyone around him realizes how much of a piece of shit he feels like they are. 264. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs dont over analyze things. Gordon isnt great on restarts but he winning races again and still makes chases. Thats all i want. Hes a legend and doesnt need to prove anything to anyone anymore. Go Gordon!!!! 265. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "See, one reason I believe that drivers have only 500-550 starts is because at that point in their career, their competitveness begins to dull, as they begin to take fewer and fewer risks on the track." That may be true. But I just can't get this out of my mind that makes me think differently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_l0SGWjyzg 266. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2011 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, you are right about Jeff Gordon being a bonafied legend. He reached that status a long time ago. And yes, he won three times in 2011, but I still have doubts about him, restarts, and his crew chief, especially when it comes to late caution flags, which there weren't any of in any of his victories this past year. But one thing's for sure about Gordon, in my opinion. Next year will prove whether or not 2011 was a sign of a Bobby Allison-like resurgence that lasted six years beginning in 1978 after five lean years, or whether 2011 was a flash in the pan, and the things that haunted Mark Martin the last two years begin to haunt Gordon where Alan Gustavson is concerned, especially since Kasey Kahne is joining Hendrick Motorsports next year. I think the acquisition of Kahne is either going to continue Gordon's resurgence, or signal the beginning of the end of him as an elite driver. I don't think there's going to be any middle ground there. And I think the latter is going to happen, sad to say. But remember what happened the last time Gordon had a big season. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. joined the fold, and Gordon almost instantly wnet into the toilet, though there were other factors involved, such as Gordon's crash at Vegas, and the way the cars began to be set up, which didn't play into his favor, either, and the fact that the new, beefier car played into the hands of the drivers that threw their cars around the track [Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch especially], something that hurt Gordon, Matt Kenseth, who also went winless in 2008, Tony Stewart, who's only win in '08 came when Regan Smith drew a post-race one-lap penalty for passing Stewart on the apron, and other precision drivers. 267. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2011 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again youre looking too much in to it. Kasey will have a good year but Dale Jr. is a lot different than Kasey Kahne. Dale Jr. got the best equipment etc. cause hes the most ppular driver. Jeff Gordon will make up for the rest. Alan is not as bad as you say and I'll take him over Steve Latarte any day. I'm telling you that you are for sure over analyzing this. You can say i told you so this time next year but at the same time I don't think you will. Gordon will have a Top 5 points season in 2012. 268. Watto posted: 11.22.2011 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your thoughts. I don't mean to be so brash occasionally. Sometimes I may not agree with some things, but you're intelligent and provide some things to think about. When it comes to RPM, I know that Richard lacked power for a while til he gained control some time back (I forget the timeframe). I heard that he was very much a figurehead, but things are different now. I guess it was towards the end of the 2010 season when the financial issues reared their head and Gillette ended up out. RPM supposedly helped Roush gain some competitiveness back when Roush was struggling with some engineering stuff. I think there's no doubt that Jack always wants to be the top dog, but I don't think he's going to be shady to other teams to make that happen. Wood Bros have run Roush equipment for the last year or two and Front Row Motorsports are very much an underfunded team that doesn't have much of a shot at competing with Roush to begin with. RPM's shop is located in the same industrial park as Roush's, and they supposedly work together a lot. 269. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.23.2011 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The way it sounds, she will more than likely be full-time in Cup in 2013." Unfortunately, I think you are right. She will probably be pushed into Cup way before she is even ready for it, just so GoDaddy can benefit from the exposure she will get them. Her Nationwide year was OK, but she still made a few mistakes out there that she should have known not to do by now. Anyone see the Kurt Busch/Jerry Punch clip from this race on YouTube? I understand drivers being mad in the heat of the moment, but he goes way too far. Somebody has posted a new clip on YouTube where he is cussing out Jerry and seems to be going out of his way to being disrespectful to him. Also, he just lost his second crew chief in 3 years despite the fact that in his final year with both Tryson and Addington, they won multiple times and made the cha$e. I'm hoping Penske doesn't move Paul Wolfe to Kurt's team because he and Brad have a good thing going right now. To me, it would make more sense to just hire a new crew chief for the #22, since Penske is going to have to do that anyway. Now as far as Jeff Gordon goes, he may be done winning championships (although when it comes to Jeff, I never count him out of anything) but I sure as hell don't think he's done winning races. I think he'll break 90 in the win column before he retires, and 100 wins may be stretching it, but the only reason I don't think he'll reach that milestone is because the competition is more on an even level now than it was in the 90's (Roush, RCR and others had yet to master the multi-car aspect that seemed to be the new trend in the sport. Hell, Gibbs didn't even have a second car until '99, and RCR started a second team two years earlier than that, but didn't have two cars running well at the same time until that same year when Dale Sr and Skinner both finished top 10 in points). If Gordon does win another title in the future, I won't mind at all. I didn't even mind seeing him dominate when I first started watching the sport, because he was at least a respectful guy. Same with Jimmie Johnson from '06-'10. 270. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.23.2011 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Roush is not going to allow ANY other Ford team he has his thumb under to compete with his own. Not the Wood Brothers. not Front Row Motorsports. Not any of the rest of them." I agree with this. Roush certainly isn't going to let those teams compete with his own on a week-by-week basis, which just shows how insecure he can be. The Wood Brothers and Front Row are certainly not in any position to start outperforming Roush because while it's true Jack gives them engine and chassis support, it's still up to the teams to utilize the equipment the right way, and that's what Roush does way better than the Woods and FRM. At least Rick Hendrick gives enough support to his partner teams to the point where they can win races (both SHR cars, Furniture Row) and a championship in SHR's case. 271. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.23.2011 - 5:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Think of it this way: Harry Gant and Morgan Shepherd were year in, year out title contenders in the early 90s (Harry in the 33 and Morgan in the 21), and they were in their FIFTIES. RCRandPenskeGuy: You have a good point about Hendrick, but it was pretty obvious that Tony got freezed out of the title in 2009; Hendrick did obviously (not necessarily factually, just a theory) freeze people during Jimmie's run. Note: when Gordo came around, it was still a multi-year process to get your first win. Look at him and Bobby Labonte; they both royally smelled their rookie years (how many of today's drivers won as a rookie?); they then both graduated to running in the 3rd-10th range on a weekly basis; then they became winners. Gordo showed this year that, even ten years from now, you won't want him in your mirror at the end. 272. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2011 - 9:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually think Jeff will benefit from Kasey. After the years in bad equipment and bad teammates, I see him and Gordon working well together, with Kasey taking in Jeff's wealth of knowledge gained through experience, and Kasey continuing to rejuvenate Jeff. Those are two "thinkers" on the tour and they both undertstand how much they need each other. 273. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2011 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, I'm not saying that Alan Gustavson is a bad crew chief. I just think he's a poor race strategist, and that's just about as important as having good cars today, because of how important track position is. That's why I said that he would have made a great crew chief about 20 years ago, because you really didn't have to worry about strategy and track position that much back then. On the other hand, Dale Earnhardt, Jr. really didn't have good cars this year, but Steve LeTarte, who I think is one of the best tacticians among the crwe chiefs, put him in position to win about five times this year, even though he didn't win any races. That's because LeTarte's weakness is in setting up the cars, and always has been, but he's one of the top raceday strategists today. I think the fact that Earnhardt actually finished ahead of Gordon in the points, though in consecutive positions, proves my point about what's more important today. RCRandPenskeGuy, we agree that Roush will NEVER allow any Ford team that's under his thumb to fullt compete with him. Just look at what happened to Robert Yates Racing to find a prime example of this. The Wood Brothers might have the potential some day to challenge Roush, at least on some occasions, if they can ever get enough funding, which might be one reason Roush quite possibly blocked potential sponsorship, because he didn't want them running more this past season. And let's not forget that he stole the Citgo sponsorship from them at the end of the 2000 season. Citgo had sponsored the Wood Brothers since 1987 and had some of their best full-time seasons with Citgo from 1991-'95. Then when Roush stole the Citgo sponsorship from them in 2001, the downhill slide of the team, which began in 2002, began to become apparent. You say it's up to the teams to utilize the parts Roush gives them the right way, but hoe do we know if they can, because they haven't enough resources to show what they can do with their equipment. That's why the Woods only ran half the races this past season, and are only scheduled to run about one-third of the races this upcoming season, and FRM is simply struggling to survive. And the same is true with TRG Motorsports, which joined the Ford family during the 2011 season. And DSFF, I don't know if Jeff will benefit from Kasey. He might, but he might not. On the other hand, Kasey will benefit from Jeff. That's guaranteed. But with Kasey going over there, within a few races, he might become the new no. 2 over there, with Gordon dropping to no. 3. Actually, they have the same personality. My fear is that the same thing will hapen as happened in 2008, when Dale Earnhardt, Jr. went over there and brought his crew chief, and it took HMS more than half the season, and a lot of testing [which is not allowed any more] to get even one car competitve with the top teams of that season. NicoRosbergFan, you are right about Harry Gant and Morgan shepherd contending into their 50s in the early 90s, but remember that it was a completely different sport back then. A driver in the early 50s back then is like a driver in the early-to-mid 40s would be now, because drivers didn't get into Cup until their late 20s. In fact, Gant didn't really reach the Cup series until just before his 39th birthday, and he's just a little more than two years younger in age than Richard Petty, who started in Cup 20 years before Gant did. Shepherd also didn't reach Cup until his late 30s, so they really weren't that experienced in Cup by the time they reached their late 40s and early 50s. As for those that think I overanalyze things. I just simply try to explain my comments. I don't think an opinion is really worth that much, unless you try to explain what it is your trying say. So yes, I might overanalyze things, but it's just that I'm trying to explain my points, because there's nothing worse than a baseless opinion that isn't explained. 274. BON GORDON posted: 11.23.2011 - 12:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I appreciate your comments CJS and believe that you have a wealth of knowledge in NASCAR. However, Im a Gordon fan who completely 100% doesn't buy the Gordon is terrible now and will be worse off with Kasey Kahne around bologna. That's overanalyzing, sorry just saying. I do agree that Latarte is a better strategest and Alan is a better setup crew chief. I'll still take Alan over Steve anyday. Gordon and Alan have got a season under their belt and next year will be ready to challenge for the Cup. Gordon has a lot of faith in his chew chief and team and I KNOW will benefit with Kahne being part of the team considering his success on 1.5 mile tracks and Gordon's struggles at times in 2011. 275. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2011 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, Jeff Gordon is not terrible now. Three wins is proof of that, though if there had been late cautions in those races, I wonder how many of those wins, if nay, he would have gotten. you're also accurate in saying that he has a lot of confidence in his team. Nowhere have I said anything other than that. I'm just saying that the jury is still out on whether or not having Kahne, a driver with the same exact personality as he does, being added to the team, will do to his performance, other than it almost certainly won't exactly what it was in 2011. It will either be better than it was, or worse than it was, but it won't be the same. And I'm betting on it being worse than it was in 2011, but I have been known to be wrong, and if I am, I'll admit so. And as I've said, I am guilty of overanalyzing at times, but I think I'd rather be guilty of that than be guilty of not giving an explanation of what I'm saying or writing. 276. BON GORDON posted: 11.23.2011 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fair enough CJS. 277. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.23.2011 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said this on the SPEED boards: "Too me guys like Robby, Tony and anyone else like them should be praised and celebrated for their multi-racing series talents, instead of being disrespected (couldn't find a better word) for not being a "one-trick pony." Yes both RG and TS are head-cases (RG more so) but what they do in a time when most drivers race in just for one series is undeniable. There aren't to many Robby and Smokes left. Didn't mean to bring RG into this but i was just trying to make a point. Praise Tony for being a NASCAR champion is fine but lets (while we can) celebrate his other accomlishments in auto racing." 278. Cooper posted: 11.23.2011 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I robbed a bank, and needed a driver to get me away from the cops, Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon would be the two of the top 5 I would choose. I actually think Tony could get away from them. I really do. 279. BON GORDON posted: 11.23.2011 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs i do wanna know what your defintiin of bad for Gordon is next year? Gordon has never truely had a bad season.1993 inconsistent and no wins but it was his rookie season. 2005-12 finishes of 30 or worse, finished 11th in points but still had 4 wins including a Daytona 500. 2008 and 2010 had no wins but a fair amount of Top 5s and Top Tens, and he also had Top Ten points finishes both seasons. So i just wanna know what his season will look like. He has never showed us a truely awful season. 280. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2011 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, a bad season for Gordon would be missing the Chase. Simple as that. now I've actually predicted that, and was wrong, and I may or may not predict that for him for 2012. To me, he's one of those drivers that's on the fringe next year. Remember that before others started prepping for the Chase in mid-season, he was as low as 17th or 19th in points, then came on when others weren't trying their best, which gave the illusion that his team was better than it really was, and I fell into that trap, as well. Remember that he was LAST in the Chase among the 11 drivers that had competed in every Chase race entering Homestead, but a fifth-place finish moved him up to eighth in points, but still third among the Hendrick drivers, which is where he basically sits in the Hendrick hierarchy today. He even finished behind Dale Earnhardt, Jr. [ugh] in points. But also, what would be a bad season for Gordon would be a good one for more than half the drivers in the series. So we must keep that in perspective. He's not going to fall off the earth like Dale Jarrett did in 2003, but I think that if he makes the Chase next year, he'll be a bubble driver, and nothing more, especially if Hendrick's cars continue to be off the pace, as they have been for about 18 months now. But if Hendrick's team gets its speed back, Gordon could get back up to about sixth of seventh, but he'd still be third in the Hendrick organization's pecking order behind Johnson and Kahne. That's his real problem. But another year of finishing behind Earnhardt in points would definately spell the beginning of the end for him, since that would put him at the bottom of the order at Hendrick. 281. cjs3872 posted: 11.24.2011 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just read a bit of sad news. Jim Rathmann, the winner of the most competitve Indianapolis 500 ever run back in 1960, has died. There are NASCAR connections here. First, his brother Dick, who won the pole at Indy in 1958, won 13 times in NASCAR's highest series. But most significantly, Rathmann's 1960 winning effort was led by, among others, Smokey Yunick. Yunick, whose fame came through NASCAR, was also a frequent competitor at Indy from the 1950s through 1975, and was one of the co-crew chiefs on Rathmann's winning car. Yunick, of course, won the next two Daytona 500s, taking the 1961 race with Marvin Panch after Fireball Roberts fell out after dominating [he led 170 of the 187 laps he ran that day], and the 1962 race with Roberts, the first time that event was won from the pole. Rathmann also won the famous "Race of Two Worlds" in 1958. Rathmann was also a regular driver of the pace car at Indy, doing so five or six times, I forgot exactly how many times he drove the pace car at Indy, including the infamous 1973 race at Indy. A truly great big money racer, Rathmann also finished second at Indy three times. Godspeed, Jim Rathmann. Hope you're racing the likes of Rodger Ward, Jimmy Bryan, and Bill Vukovich in roadsters again, this time in heaven, where nobody can be injured. 282. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.24.2011 - 5:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) HAPPY THANKSGIVING! God Bless, Jim Rathmann. 283. the_man posted: 11.24.2011 - 9:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 38th place finish: "It's just engine trouble. The guys at Roush Yates do a great job and that was probably just pushing the issue. We are here racing for a win and had a fast car and that is our fourth engine failure of the year. You can't make the Chase, and you can't go for a championship having problems like that. They do a great job; we just pushed the envelope too much and were being a little aggressive on our car with not a whole lot to lose. We were trying to find a little horsepower and it didn't work out." 284. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.24.2011 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points cjs. I definitely respect your view. Its just that my eyes are telling me a different story. He still has the ability, the fire, and the equipment he's driving has won the last 6 titles. I think things will be different for him and Alan. 285. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.24.2011 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also Gil Martin is out as Harvick's crew chief. I really predict a disaster for him next year now. For the past two yearss, Kevin has absolutely gushed over Gil, how he allowed Kevin to be himself and blow up over the radio while keeping the pit guys calm. Now he has lost him. I don't see this ending well. 286. 18fan posted: 11.24.2011 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It seems like there are going to be a lot more crew chief changes than driver changes this offseason. 287. Talon64 posted: 11.24.2011 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe the one saving grace for Harvick's chances in 2012 is that Shane Wilson will be his new CC; they won a Nationwide championship in 2006 (was CC for 26 of 35 races) and had 5 wins in 13 races in 2007. So hopefully they'll still be able to click, and click at the Cup level. Something I never knew: Shane was Brendan Gaughan's CC when he won 2 races as a Truck Series rookie in 2002, and then won 6 races and should've won the Truck title in 2003. 288. cjs3872 posted: 11.24.2011 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, DSFF, only time will tell. 289. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.25.2011 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When I heard about Gil Martin leaving the #29, my first thought was, "Well, that's where Addington will probably end up." Obviously that won't happen now, as I didn't realize that they already had sort of a "spare". 290. Frank posted: 11.25.2011 - 11:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, gentlemen, about Gordon I just can say that he is done as title contender after 2007 Martinsville Spring. If not, then after loosing that Chase for sure. I am way not overanalyzing because really think that on such intense level of sport mental toughness is the thing - basically all top owners produce competitive cars and with COT it couldn't be much difference. Tony Stewart is the toughest, Jeff Gordon is not nearly that - yes, he can kick any butt like this year at Atlanta but racing like this week to week - no. Cjs, I don't think that not making the Chase is a sign of bad season. Does Jamie Mac had a bad year in 2010? Also I think that it doesn't matter at all where you finished (or out) in the Chase if you wasn't in title fight - especially for driver who won Cup championship. Bad season in my view is winless season. 291. cjs3872 posted: 11.25.2011 - 11:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Frank, whether or not having a bad season depends on whether or not you make the Chase depends on who you are. If it's somebody like Jamie McMurray, Marcos Ambrose, A.J. Allmendinger, or Bobby Labonte, none of whom have ever qualified for the Chase, then I'd say, not making the Chase wouldn't qualify as a bad season, at all. In fact, McMurray's 2010 season, in which he got half his current win total of six, all in big races, was a great season. Or take a guy like Juan Montoya. Not making the Chase by itself wouldn't make for a bad season for him, either, since he's only qualified for it once in his five years in the sport, especially since he's never won a NASCAR race of any kind on an oval. But on the other hand, for guys like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, and the Busch brothers, all of whom are top drivers in elite equipment, all but Kyle Busch having been a champion at least once, and have all missed the Chase at least once. Not making the Chase for them qualifies as a total disaster, or in the case of the Busch brothers, not finishing in the top ten, and thus not getting to go on stage at the Awards Banquet, is a disaster. The particular driver and team you're talking about, as well as expectations. depends on what a good season is and what abbad season is. Case in point is Jimmie Johnson. Most anybody would take two wins and a sixth-place finish in points, but for Johnson, it's actually the worst season of his Cup career. But for guys like Regan Smith and Paul Menard, it was a good season, while for Trevor Bayne, it was a great season, despite missing six weeks in April and May due to illness.. It's just a matter of perspective. 292. Anonymous posted: 11.25.2011 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Who you think is more of a turkey, Kyle Busch or Ndamukong Suh. Ndamukong Suh this year has 4 personal fouls this year in 11 games this year and now 9 or 10 personal fouls in his 2 years in the NFL. He is considered the dirtiest player player in the NFL, and stepped on a Green bay Packer offensive lineman on the ground during a national televised game. 293. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 11.25.2011 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another Random stat I just remembered is this is the first time since 2000 that Tony Stewart was the driver with the most wins in a season. 294. Critic posted: 11.26.2011 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone think that the fix was in for Tony and Carl to have a close race? I have seen some message boards with people saying something of this nature. I mean ratings for Nascar have been down. Fans weren't completely in the stands with the exception of the last race. I don't know if I believe that or not, but it is interesting that Tony won 5 races in the Chase and we had the closest point standings race of all time with a TIE between two drivers. 295. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.26.2011 - 5:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) God Bless Ray Elder, who passed away yesterday. 296. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2011 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good question @292. What Suh needs to realize is that he has built a reputation now which will lead to him never getting the benefit of the doubt for calls in the future. He has really handcuffed himdelf and it will prevent him from becoming what he is capable of: the next Reggie White. KyBu is facing a similar situation. Like Suh, he won't get the benefit of anything for a long time. And he likewise is holding himself back from his potential which is filling the void left by Dale. Instead all he is the second coming of the MMM era Ernie Irvan if only Ernie had a bad attitude and a lot of probation. A lot of wins, a lot of "whoa, that dude can drive". A lot of wrecked cars and never a championship threat. 297. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.26.2011 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyone think that the fix was in for Tony and Carl to have a close race? I have seen some message boards with people saying something of this nature. I mean ratings for Nascar have been down. Fans weren't completely in the stands with the exception of the last race. I don't know if I believe that or not, but it is interesting that Tony won 5 races in the Chase and we had the closest point standings race of all time with a TIE between two drivers." Yet another "fan" who thinks NASCAR rigges races. Unbelieveable, i realize NASCAR does make thing smokey and not clear but for crying out loud. The only racing series that could "rig" a race is Formula 1 with "team orders." 298. Undertaker0024 posted: 11.26.2011 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting fact: Jimmie Johnson has finished 1st or 2nd in the points standing every year except for 2002, 2005, and 2011. The Champion those 3 years? Tony Stewart. 299. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.26.2011 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Now that i didn't know. Learning something new everyday on here. :-P 300. cjs3872 posted: 11.26.2011 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Ernie Irvan never a championship threat? Might I remind you that he may well have won the title in 1994 with Robert Yates if not for his crash at Michigan that nearly killed him? Frankly, I believe a lot of Ivran's problems at Morgan-McClure Motorsports had to do with overdriving cars that he, quite frankly, was better than. Whe got to Yates late in 1993, he finally got in with cars and a team whose ability equaled his, and the results were immiediate and evident. And Irvan, unlike Kyle Busch today, had guys around that would set a loose cannon straight. you had Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, Darrell Waltrip, and King Richard himself was still driving during Irvan's fiorst two years as a serious challenger [1991-'92]. Get out of line with those guys, and they let you know in no uncertain terms. And remember that, although they no longer drove, Bobby Allison and Cale Yarborough were also stil around then, as well. Not including Petty, and occasionllly Waltrip, when he's commentating on races, there's nobody like that around these days to set the loose cannon drivers straight, which is why you have guys like the Busch brothers, Kevin Harvick, Juan Montoya, and most recently Brian Vickers believe they can do anything they want to on the track, and even sometimes away from the track, and there isn't anyone that will stand up to them. That why you have a situation where the inmates sometimes [okay, more than just sometimes] run the asylum in NASCAR. And that isn't changing any tine soon. 301. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2011 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The past 10 seasons ('02-'11) have two guys win 8 of the 10 championships with JJ winning 5 and Smoke winning 3. The other two were Kenseth and KuBu winning back to back for Roush. This was right after a 7 year stretch which saw Gordon winning 4 of those 7 Winston Cups, which followed Dale's run of 6 in 9 seasons ('86-'94), which followed Junior Johnson's stretch of 6 in 10 years with Cale and DW ('76-'85), which followed The King winning 4 out of 5 ('71-'75). What does this tell us? It says that when you have it and are able to do it more than once, you can keep it for a while. Once you win your second title within a span of a year or two, you can count on more coming. Seriously, not counting the very early days of NASCAR when nobody could afford to run for a championship more than a few times, who in NASCAR history has won 2 championships quickly then never won it again? Joe Weatherly is ineligible because he was tragically killed while the two time defending champ (a story that doesn't get enough publicity), Terry doesn't count because his two titles were 12 years and 4 team swaps apart. Pearson's two with Holman Moody are ineligible (he won his first with Cotton Owens who fell off the face of the Earth after David quit in defense of his crew members) because they went under quickly after he left. And anyone before that doesn't count (like Buck Baker) because the finances were so different back then. Hell, Ned Jarrett won his second then retired a year later while still in his 30s. In NASCAR, it is either one and done or 3+. Also this tells us that once that window closes, it is pretty much closed for good. Petty won one more in '79 after DW giftwrapped it for him, and Junior Johnson came damn close in '92, but that is about it. Cjs, if you are looking for a reason why Gordon may be done winning championships (I still disagree but I respect your viewpoint), let it be that once your window shuts, it is shut for good. Speaking of Pearson, does that not show you how valuable he was to his teams? Cotton throws a fit, fires all his championship crew members, so David walks out too. He wins 3 races total in 6 years before quitting. He left Holman Moodyearly in '71, they had a really good rest of the year with Bobby Allison, then folded. He got shitcanned by the Wood Brothers in '79 (something they still openly regret to this day) and they have only won 16 races since, 9 of which were with underrated Neil Bonnett from '79-'82. 302. Anonymous posted: 11.26.2011 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, DSFF was talking about Ernie not being a Championship threat at Morgan-McClure Motorsports only. He even said the Ernie Ivan from the Morgan-MClure era the same paragraph that he mention never being a championship contender. There was two different version of Ernie Irvan before his 1994 Michigan crash. The Morgan-McClure version and the Ernie Irvan in the 28 car. The Morgan-McClure version of Ernie was way too reckless on the track and matter of fact was responsible for Kyle Petty missing 11 races in 1991 with a broken leg. 303. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.26.2011 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, DSFF, but every other driver will tell that all of Richard Petty's wins in 1983 and 1984 were fixed. Consider Richard Petty in 1967 at Asheville. Sequence like this two times in a row: Intentionally wreck Bobby Allison. Pass every car except Bobby under yellow regardless of them being on the same lap. Intentionally wreck Bobby Allison. Pass every car except Bobby under yellow regardless of them being on the same lap. Repeat until you are on the lead lap. Face it whiners. Whether or not a sport is rigged, it is still a real possibility that it is rigged. What is to stop an umpire from INTENTIONALLY call an obvious strike a ball? Nothing except his own morals. You can't say anything is a concrete lie, but you can say you disagree. I PERSONALLY believe that Kyle Busch is a sleazoid, but that doesn't make it FACT. 304. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2011 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, what post 302 said. Trust me, I remember '94 very well. Some if it was good like Bodine blowing motors every other race. Some of it was bad like going to North Wilkesboro to watch Bodine lap the field and win. Some of it was great like Dale tying King Richard with 7 championships. Some of it heart wrenching like losing Neil and being pretty sure we were gonna lose Ernie (thank the Good Lord I was wrong). But I certainly remember watching Ernie and realizing he had finally put it together. He still drove the hell out of the car but knew where the line was and rarely crossed like the past. And I knew Dale was in for the fight of his life for that title. But at MMM, although I liked him, he was never a title threat. Like KyBu 305. cjs3872 posted: 11.26.2011 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, but the big reason why Ernie was so "out of control" often when he drove for Morgan-McClure Motorsports was simply because the cars and team weren't very good, and Ernie was trying too hard to make up for it. They never won and were rarely competitve before Irvan got there, and except for a good season for Sterling Marlin in 1995 when Chevrolet had an ungodly big advantage on the other makes, they were never that good again, except for plate races, where they were one of the best for about seven years. And even that left with Sterling Marlin after the 1997 season. And DSFF, one reason why I say Jeff Gordon's championship years are behind him is, a great stock car driver usually has 15-17 years in him. Gordon is now past that, as 2012 will be his 20th year [look for some retro paint schemes for him in 2012] in NASCAR's top series. His last real shot at the title was 2007, when he led for almost the entire season, but was overcome by Jimmie Johnson at the end. [I still think Chad Knaus was hiding things from the 24 team and possibly cheating during his run in the last five or six races that year]. Then came three things that undid Gordon's career in 2008. The first was the crash at Las Vegas, which resulted in back injuries that affected him for nearly three years. The second was the fact that with the new car, a driver no longer had to be precise [remember that other precise drivers like Tony Stewart and Matt Kenseth also had bad years in '08], which was Gordon's greatest strength, and the third was the lack of confidence that Gordon had in himself when it came to finishing races due to his spin out at Watkins Glen in 2007 while leading on the next-to-last lap. While Gordon finally overcame the third of those demons in 2011, the fact remains that you have to muscle the cars around the track, something that just doesn't play into Gordon's hands, but rather into the hands of drivers like Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch, as they realize that if you get into the wall, it's not nearly as penal as it was with the car that was phased out in 2007. Then you have to consider that Gordon has always been a terrbile finisher when it comes to late-season performances, and with the Chase format, that really works against him, as well. In fact, he has been the third driver among the Hendrick drivers in points in two of the last three years, and figures to do no better than that next year with Kasey Kahne coming aboard. As for your point in post 301 about what happened with the teams David Pearson left, I think you meant that Cotton Owens won only six times AFTER Pearson left, as he left Owens' team as the reigning champion, having won the title for the second time in three years. And when Holman-Moody pulled out, it was because of the factory pull-out prior to the 1971 season. Holman-Moody survived that season due only to the sponsorship money from Bobby Allison's sponsor, Coca-Cola, or they would have never made it past mid-season. And the split between David Pearson and the Wood Brothers after the 1979 Rebel 500 was not acrimonious in any way, and was actually coming. What happened with that botched pit stop simply sped up the process. In fact, the Woods had such respect for Pearson, that in 1985 and '86, they changed their car number to 7, just so that Pearson could run the no. 21 [for Hoss Ellington in '85 and for his own team in '86], and when Neil Bonnett got hurt at Dover in the fall of 1989, it was Pearson they originally called on to wheel their car at Charlotte, but after hardly being able to move due to intense back pain after one day in the car, Pearson told them he couldn't go, so the Woods called on someone else. 306. Lordlowe posted: 11.27.2011 - 2:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are right CJS Gordon is done his glory days have come and gone now he should retire and let a younger driver take over the wheel of the 24 car. 307. Anonymous posted: 11.27.2011 - 5:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rather, it would Jeff who knows how to muscle a car. Remember, when Jeff came around, cars were still rather boxy and power steering had hardly come around to be effective. Now, no power steering makes you lose twenty spots. 308. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2011 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think you meant that Cotton Owens won only six times AFTER Pearson left" Yeah, that's what I meant. And Cotton had some pretty good drivers. And although his split with the Woods was coming, I wouldn't say it wasn't acrimonious. It was coming because they had been at each other's throats for a while. At the height of the issue, the Woods were questioning David's commitment and nerve at the high speed tacks. They made up quickly as you mentioned, but as with any split, there was plenty of acrimony at the time. "Yes, but the big reason why Ernie was so "out of control" often when he drove for Morgan-McClure Motorsports was simply because the cars and team weren't very good, and Ernie was trying too hard to make up for it." True. With the exception of the plate tracks, and races at driver's tracks (Ernie at the road courses and Bristol, Sterling at Darlington, Hamilton at Martinsville) when they had good drviers, they weren't up to par with the elite teams. What is most telling to me is that MMM never won an intermediate event (unrestricted tracks 1.5 miles and up). Ernie couldn't win one with them, goes to Yates, and immediately wins Charlotte by leading all but 6 laps, then wins Atlanta the next year, and Michigan after his awful injury. Sterling also never won an intermediate with them, but at Ganassi won 3 in a two year stretch when their cars were actually good. 309. cjs3872 posted: 11.27.2011 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First DSFF, as for your saying that Sterling Marlin never won an intermediate track race with Morgan-McClure Motorsports, remember that they absolutely dominated the June race at Michigan in 1996, building a lead of 10 or 11 seconds, but got caught out by fuel mileage, which enabled Rusty Wallace to steal that race. As for the thing with he Wood Brothers thinking that David Pearson didn't give it his all toward the end of his days with them, you have to remember that Pearson was always a conservative driver, not willing to take risks until he absolutely had to, and with the competition becoming better in 1978 and '79, that worked against him and his team. A prime example is what happened in the 1979 Daytona 500. Pearson was way too conservative in that race, and as a result, he wound up in a crash with cars he should never have been running around. And Anonymous [307], Jeff Gordon has never been known for muscling cars around the track. He has always been a precision driver, maybe the ultimate precision driver, and when NASCAR went to a car in which hitting the wall, or in some cases, even crashing it, became less penal, Gordon was one of the ones affected most by the new car the most. But I strongly disagree with Lordlowe's comment about Jeff needing to hang it up. While his days as a legitimate championship contender are probably over, especially due to the Chase format, I don't think his days as a front runner are done by any means. In fact, I thinkthere may even be more crown jewel wins in front of him, which would allow him to show a third generation of drivers that he still has it when it comes to the biggest races on the circuit. His biggest problem may be his crew chief, not himself. For while Alan Gustavson builds great cars, he's always been deficient in the strategy departmant, which is as important now as having fast cars is, and at some tracks, even more important. Gordon himself is often too conservative on restarts, allowing the field to string out before making his moves, by which time, it's often too late to catch the leaders. 310. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.27.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Morgan-McClure never had as much horsepower as the other established top teams in the 90's like HMS, RYR, Roush, JGR, Penske and RCR. Even in their heyday (1990-1996), it was obvious that they couldn't contend for wins often on the big tracks (with the exception of Daytona and Dega due to restrictor plates giving every contender an equal chance). 311. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2011 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whoops, wrong board. 312. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.28.2011 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ that Denver QB has did something that hasn't been done since 1950. Oh how will the haters try to bring it down now? lol 313. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.28.2011 - 8:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know, but I love watching the "experts" squirm everytime he does well. 314. cjs3872 posted: 11.28.2011 - 1:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I don't want to mention something oin heere that has nothing to do with racing, but for old-timers, Broncos' QB Tim Tebow reminds me a lot of ex-Vikings QB Joe Kapp, who led them to their first Super Bowl appearance in 1969, as their quarterbacking styles are similar. By the way, Kapp was the head coach for Cal when John Elway, the Broncos' current GM, went to Stanford. But again, that doesn't belong here. And getting back to racing, Morgan-McClure was not exactly short on horsepower on bigger non-RP tracks, but lacked in oter areas. As I mentioned Sterling Marlin's dominant run in the June race at Michigan in 1996 proved that. They were also factors in the Brickyard 400, contending in 1994, and leading the 1995 and '96 races with Marlin, so the lack of horsepower argument just doesn't fly. Morgan-McClure in the 90s wasn't unlike the Elliott team was in the 80s. When they got the upper hand [as was the case in the RP tracks], they were able to keep their advantage longer, because they were headquartered outside of the hub of the sport, but when they got behind, they had no way to effectively catch up for the same reason. 315. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.28.2011 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well i'm in a ranting mood, so i might as well rant about Tim Tebow *does the Tebow pose* lol Yes i am a hypocrite for doing this, so sue me. And about the BCS (the BSS is its true name) Tim Tebows "haters" are traditionalists, those people who have been around long enough (maybe to long) to know what a QB does and that is stand in the pocket and throw the ball and NOT (repeating) NOT run it as often as he does. Well if the haters/traditionalists would look at his Flordia games and Josh McDanials system, Tim Tebow CAN throw the ball, i've seen him do it at UF and in Josh McDanials system. Didn't he throw for 308 last year? Yeah he did. He CAN throw the football, he isn't accurate (which can be fixed) but he can gun when he needs too. I'm sorry that the haters find his spiral not Brett Farve/Tom Brady like but isn't it catchable? Yeah it is. He can throw it and he can run it. I'm sorry but he gives you 2 threats to worry about, 1. he CAN throw it (which he can but Traditionalists/Haters say he can't). 2. he can run it really well. He is 6'3 240lbs. He isn't going to stiff arm you, he isn't a dodge'em type QB to aviod hits, HE WILL RUN YOU OVER. Tim Twbow is a QB, pure and simple and the only "experts" (should starting using that more DSFF) who "hate" on him or ex-guys who have been re-tired for like 5-10 (or more) years and they can't stand a "non-traditional" QB coming in and doing what a "true" QB should do. I don't think he'll last long in Denver but for now, he is making his coach and John Elway look like a bunch of fools for keeping him in. BTW if the Broncos or within 7 or less points of TB and the Patriots when they play, Tim Tebow will lead the game WINNING drive to win the game. BSS rant time, why are LSU and UA going to play for the National Championship? Didn't LSU beat them AT HOME? Yeah they did but NOOOOOOOO the bullshit system has the Crimson Tide #2 when they shouldn't be. I don't want too see it. Oh and Houston is going to be left out because of what reason? they too are undefeated but they aren't playing for it? bullshit. I'll give you guys teams (during the BSS era) that went undeated and didn't play for the National Championship: 1998 Tulane, 1999 Marshall, Utah in 2004&2008, Boise State in 2004,2006,2008 and 2009, Hawaii in 2007 and TCU in 2009 and 2010 and including Auburn in 2004 from a BSS conference mind you. And the last team to win a National Championship in a non-AQ BSS conference is...................................... BYU in 1984. Yeah, who? Ok i'm done. rip me apart. 316. Cooper posted: 11.28.2011 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1. Unorthodox quarterbacks are the hardest quarterbacks to game plan for. What do you think makes Ben Roethlisberger great? His size/toughness/footwork. He isn't the greatest at throwing a football but he has great statistics and two Superbowl rings. If Tebow can throw defenses off, then in reality he is more valuable then most of the quarterbacks in the league. I want to see Tebow succeed because he makes people tick. And I love to watch high paid "experts" look like total idiots. 2. The BCS is a joke. I don't know why they are so stubborn....? I hate watching the SEC and all the other "Ass kissing/money grabbing conferences". I'd rather watch Boise State and Houston than watch LSU and Alabama. It's a money issue. Everything about the NCAA comes down to money. My opinion: Take the winners of every certified Division 1 conference, and do it like the basketball tourney. It would take 6 weeks to complete but it would be awesome. Also, I think all players on an NCAA sporting team/activity/Extra-Curricular program should be entitled to .01% of their certain programs related income. Watching the people in suits shove money in their shoes that they don't deserve makes me sick. 317. Anonymous posted: 11.28.2011 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The past 10 seasons ('02-'11) have two guys win 8 of the 10 championships with JJ winning 5 and Smoke winning 3." It's the 3rd time that 2 drivers have combined to win 8 championships in 10 years, with both winning multiple times. But the first two times overlap; You had Richard Petty (1971-72, 74-75, 79) and Cale Yarborough (1976-78) do one better and combine for 8 in 9 years from 1971 to 1979, with Benny Parsons' 1973 title the only exception. And then from 1966 to 1975 you had Petty (1967, 1971-72, 74-75) and David Pearson (1966, 68-69) do it with Bobby Issac in 1970 and Parsons in 1973 the only others to win a title. 318. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 11.28.2011 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well its semi-official. Darian Grubb is out as Crew Chief, Steve Addington is in... 319. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.29.2011 - 3:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I expect this crew chiefing journey to go a lot better for Addington. Let's face it, Kurt Busch is as bad as it gets when it comes to immature shouting on the radio during races, and Addington weathered out two years with him so whatever Tony might throw will no doubt seem tame in comparison. Now we will see for sure if it has been Addington's doing, or his drivers' that they had late season fades with him seeing as Tony is a driver that thrives in the late season. 320. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.30.2011 - 9:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add fuel to the anti-BCS rant, the Heisman race is a joke as well. How in the hell is Andrew Luck or Case Keenum for that matter going to lose the Heisman to Alabama RB Trent Richardson?????? All the so called experts picked Luck throughout the season, until Oregon made Stanford look like a JV team and then they hitched onto Brandon Weeden of OK State, until the Cowboys lost on the road at Iowa State. Now the consensus is Richardson will likely win in a squeaker over Luck, Keenum, etc. So in a year in which Keenum broke every NCAA QB record, Kellen Moore of Boise State became the winningest QB in FBS History, Luck performed at a consistently high level, Russell Wilson of Wisconsin is the most precise QB, none of it matters to the Heisman voters? Those four players aren't considered the best in the nation? Alabama has played three (Penn State, LSU, Arkansas) good to great teams and the others are just plain bad, but their "star" running back will win the Heisman without breaking any school or NCAA records. RB Montee Ball of Wisconsin is more deserving of the Heisman than Richardson and has actually set records for touchdowns at Wisconsin. (Gently steps off soap box) 321. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2011 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, the "experts" are angry because they predicted long ago that Tebow would never have success in the NFL. This goes back to right after his junior seasons, when UF won the National Title and he consulted people as to what his NFL draft stock would be like. Immediately the "experts" flew to the nearest camera to say he is not "NFL material". They kept this up through his senior season in college, and once he was drafted in the 1st round. But now he has proved 3 years worth of their rhetoric wrong. And they are embarrassed and trying to explain why a 5-1 record taking over for a 1-4 team doesn't mean anything. They need to just swallow their pride and admit they were wrong. Take me for example. When Smoke took over the Haas team, I said repeatedly he would never win another championship. I felt this way for a number of reasons. First off, even though he wasn't an Alan Kulwicki type owner who did everything himself, I felt it would be enough extra on his plate to take away. Most importantly, I felt being an HMS satellite team sealed his fate. I thought he would never get the same resources as HMS' teams, especially in the cha$e. 2009 only made me feel stronger about this as he flexed a ton of muscle in the first 26 races, but fell off in the cha$e as JJ notched a (soon to be broken in two years) record tying 4 wins. But do you know what? I was wrong. I was wrong, and I tip my hat to Smoke, and I feel kinda silly for counting him out. Sure, I still feel that had JJ not taken himself out of the cha$e by crashing out of Charlotte and doing whatever the hell he did at Dega, had Gordon not had such miserable luck up to that point, and had Dale Jr not continued being Dale Jr, he wouldn't have had cars as strong. But he still did it when I thought he couldn't. I was wrong, and I admit it. Now the NFL "experts" need to do the same. 322. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2011 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my prophetic (or should I say pathetic?) quote from February 2009: "Engine/chassis leasing is the kiss of death, at least if you want to be great. If the engine department comes up with a few more horsepower in one of their engines, I guarantee you it will go straight to the #48 car, with the next best engines going to, in order, Jeff Gordon's car, Mark Martin's car, Dale Jr's car (he is a cash cow for HMS win lose or draw), Brad Kesolowski's part time car, Jimmie's backup motor, Rick's personal street car, Cole Trickle's #46 car, then Stewart Haas." A few thoughts. First off, it's interesting to see that, even though I had jumped on his band wagon 1 and 1/2 years earlier, I still couldn't spell "Keselowski". Secondly, it is interesting to see just how highly thought of Brad was back then, before his stunning upset Cup win at Dega. And third, boy do I look foolish! But I have a theory spawned after reading this and seeing Cole Trickle mentioned (where are you cjs?). As we all know, HMS struggled to get speed out of the Chevy Luminas. But when they were first introduced in late Spring of '89, and immediately they looked pretty good. DW won the Coke 600 in the Lumina's second points race, and was battling tooth and nail with Rusty's dominant Pontiac (he won 2 of 4 Charlotte races from '88-'90 and had great runs at Atlanta and Michigan too) in The Winston before he got punted. He grabbed another couple of short track wins that year while Ken Schrader won Fall Charlotte. So they were pretty good with the Luminas to begin with. But 1990? Ugh! DW went winless. I know he got hurt at practice for the Firecracker 400 and missed races, plus he was starting his own team for '91 which had to be a distraction, but he still didn't come very close that year. Schrader went winless. The only win was Rudd's win at Watkins Glen (that was the race where Mark Martin had something like 3 flat tires in the last 15 laps and Earnhardt spun out about 20 times, yet they finished 5th and 7th respectively!). Rudd could have won a road course back then in a Hugo. Meanwhile Dale and RCR steamrolled the competition with 9 wins (including a rare Michigan win) and the Winston Cup in their Luminas. So what happened? Remember, most of Days of Thunder was filmed in 1990. And Rick Hendrick had his guys building cars for the movie. They had to build a ton of cars, especially for the crash scenes as they would have to crash up to 10 times to get it right on film (too bad Brian Vickers was just a kid, he could have saved them a lot of time). Did HMS' involvement in Days of Thunder hurt them in 1990? I think so. 323. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.30.2011 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Note: Tebow may have a good record, but he has still shown 0 talent as a quarterback. He has only shown talent as a runningback. His passing is still comparable to a 2 year old. 324. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.30.2011 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Note: Tebow may have a good record, but he has still shown 0 talent as a quarterback. He has only shown talent as a runningback. His passing is still comparable to a 2 year old." Appearently you missed in my post where i said he threw for 308 against the chargers last year? HE CAN THROW IT. Even if he only gets to throw it 20-25 times a game, HE CAN THROW IT. The "experts" are pissed off because John Fox and his OC are using a system that is used IN COLLEGE. Urban Meyer used that system and guess what............ IT WORKED. Just ask all the teams Meyer and Tebow beat with it. The "experts" (namely Trent Dillfer and Marill Hadge) can't stand someone who is a 2 tool player that is doing their jobs BETTER then they ever did. And is it any wounder that when Kyle Orton was QB for Broncos they couldn't run it or play defense? Now that Tim Tebow is QB (he IS a QB) they can all of a sudden run it and play defense? Hmmmmm............I wounder. btw NRF, Tebow can throw it better then you. ;-) "So in a year in which Keenum broke every NCAA QB record, Kellen Moore of Boise State became the winningest QB in FBS History, Luck performed at a consistently high level, Russell Wilson of Wisconsin is the most precise QB, none of it matters to the Heisman voters? Those four players aren't considered the best in the nation?" I've always woundered why the kid at BSU hasn't won the Heisman. And i have figured it out: he doesn't get on TV and he plays for a non-BSS conference team. 325. Talon64 posted: 11.30.2011 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Appearently you missed in my post where i said he threw for 308 against the chargers last year? HE CAN THROW IT. Even if he only gets to throw it 20-25 times a game, HE CAN THROW IT." That's the only time in 9 starts that he's thrown for higher than a 50% completion %. He can throw it, it's just throwing it TO PEOPLE that's the issue. But I have to admit, being a good quarterback and being a successful quarterback are two different things. As long as Tebow's not throwing 1-2 picks a game (4 picks in 9 starts, so check) and he can effectively run the ball and keep plays alive (69 yards/game in his starts and 9 rushing TD's in 16 games overall, check) then the Bronco's have a shot of continuing this run. Until teams figure out how to play against Tebow, then they'll probably be screwed. 326. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2011 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The "experts" are pissed off because John Fox and his OC are using a system that is used IN COLLEGE." And I'm pissed off cause I'm a Panthers fan and watched John Fox coach them for so long and never open up the offense despite being blessed with athletes in their prime at the time like Steve Smith, Stephen Davis, DeShaun Foster, Mushin Muhammad, Jonathan Stewart and DeAngelo Williams. And people understandably forget this now, but before Delhomme hurt his elbow he was a really good QB for a while ('03-'05). So there is no excuse for our ultra conservative offense. And then after Jake got hurt and was obviously not good any more, Fox wouldn't a) replace Jake or b) come up with a decent replacement for Jake. But he goes to Denver and suddenly he's taking a step back and letting them *gasp* mold the offense around the strengths of their unorthodox QB? What the hell? I'm happy for Tebow, but why the hell didn't Fox let them open it up in Carolina when he was there? If it was the OC being conservative, why didn't he kick his ass out of town? It's his team. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go beat my head against the wall a few times. 327. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.30.2011 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem with Tebow's throwing is that he can't throw a ball correctly, not that he can't throw it. By the way, I have never played, but I can throw a beautiful pass. 328. cjs3872 posted: 11.30.2011 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Days of Thunder definately set Hendrick back in 1990, but that doesn't explain what happened to them the next three years, except for the first half of 1991, when they won three times at three totally different tracks. Ricky Rudd won at Darlington, thanks to a horrificly slow final pit stop by Michael Waltrip's Bahari Racing team, or otherwise, he would have won going away, and Ken Schrader won twice. He won the last race ion NASCAR's top series not fully televised, the 1991 spring race at Atlanta [it rained after 42 laps, and ABC elected not to televise the race, or let anyone else do so], doing so on gas mileage, and he also won the spring race at Dover, beating Dale Earnhardt and Darrell Waltrip. But another thing that held HMS back in those years was the lack of team unity there. Remember the race in 1990 at Martinsville when, running first and second, Rudd and Schrader took each other out? Well, that lack of team unity lasted as long as Rudd was there. Why do you think that Hendrick didn't really take off until Terry Labonte got there in 1994. Hendrick won five times that year, including Jeff Gordon's first two wins, both in crown jewel events, Labonte won more than in any oter season in his career prior to that year, and Schrader, although he failed to win, placed a career-high fourth in points. Rudd was never really a team player, as he had the same problems at Robert Yates' team in later years when he joined Dale Jarrett there. Frankly, the downward spiral of Yates truly began with Rudd's eruption toward Michael McSwain at Richmond, sometihing that had been coming for a whie, if I remember right. [Ironically, those two teamed up again with the Wood Brothers and nearly won races there.] But Yates' team was never really the same after that, and when Yates teamed up with Roush in 2004 of '05, he really signed his own team's death certificate, but an altercation involving Rudd really began the spiraling down of Yates' team. If that had not happened, Roush might still have competition at Ford, which he doesn't have, and never intends to have, because the moment someone at Ford gets into a position to seriously challenge Roush, Roush will undermine that team. Bet on it. I still believe that's what happened at Talladega. Roush knew there were other Ford teams capable of beating him there, and he decided that no Ford team other than one of his four was going to have a chance of winning that race, making sure by instituting those Ford team rules. And I believe it cost him the championship, because Tony Stewart got so mad at Roush, that he was going to do whatever it took to deny Roush the title. That's why Stewart drove as hard as he did in the final five races. I don't think he was trying to win the championship as much as he was trying to deny Roush the championship for what happened at Talladega. After all, Roush cost Stewart his drafting partner by not allowing David Gilliland to draft with him, and his entire organization saw what it was like to incur Stewart's wrath. After all, why do you think Stewart was playing those mind games after Martinsville? He wasn't trying to get in Carl Edwards' head. He was trying to get into the heads of Bob Osborne, and especially Jack Roush. 329. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.30.2011 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's the only time in 9 starts that he's thrown for higher than a 50% completion %." I'd take someone who has a 45% completeion percentage then someone who throws 10 INTs in 9 starts. Tebows throws are catchable. "The problem with Tebow's throwing is that he can't throw a ball correctly, not that he can't throw it." yeah because his release is milliseconds longer then then Tom Bradys or Drew Brees. He can work on his foot work but his mechanics are another matter that will NEVER be fully fixed but managed. You know someone brought this to my attention, "some" would say that Tim Tebow was a better passer in college then he is now. 330. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.01.2011 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, now that you mention the whole debacle with Roush only wanting his drivers to work with ONE ANOTHER and nobody else (which I agree was a load of crap, to me you should draft with whoever will give you the best chance), that makes me even happier that they did not win the championship. At first I was relieved because I don't care for Carl Edwards and wanted to see him lose it, but because of all that went down at Talladega, I'm glad none of Jack's cars won the title. 331. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2011 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right you are, RCRandPenskeGuy. Remember that Carl Edwards originally had Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne, a corporate teammate, but not a Cup teammate, as a drafting partner, and not Greg Biffle for that race. They even had an agreed on strategy, but Roush overruled that, and basically force Edwards to draft with Biffle, even though that didn't exactly work out for Edwards in the Firecracker 400 [Edwards crashed off Biffle's front bumper]. Kenseth also crashed off Biffle's front bumper in the Daytona 500, thoguh that was well after both of them had been in the big lap 29 crash, thouhg Kenseth's car was still competitve. Roush's calling the audible on Edwards' plan to work with Bayne forced the Daytona 500 winner to work with Robby Gordon's no. 7 Dodge in a team-up of two single-car operations, and the two of them, with Trevor pushing Robby, were the fastest two-car tandem in the race, bar none. If Robby Gordon [or David Ragan] hadn't had late-race mechanical problems, either Robby Gordon or Trevor Bayne might very well have won that race, after which Robby had nothing but compliments for Trevor. You don't suppose that, if Bayne ends up high and dry in terms of a ride for this year's Daytona 500 [which I think may very well happen], that Robby Gordon might pay Trevor back by giving him the no. 7 car for this year's Daytona 500, even though it's not a Ford. 332. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.01.2011 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Robby would give Trevor the #7, i think he'd give Trevor a second car that way him and Robby could run together. Cuz lets face it, #21 and #7 were the best 2 car draft out there most of the time. Robby easily could have won the 500 this year if 3-time (Smoke) didn't do his best Milk and Donuts impersoniation. Robby could have won the Fall Dega race if his back bumper didn't come off. But sadly those guys aren't going 2 car draft it up because NASCAR is listening the "fans" about getting rid of the 2 car draft. Which is sickening because it isn't a "traditional" Tona and Dega style of racing. 333. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2011 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That would be an option for Bayne as well, if he doesn't have one for the 2012 Daytona 500. Though I read somewhere that Roger Penske may release Kurt Busch from the no. 22 car after the banquet for his petulate behavior. Frankly, I give that about a 1 percent chance of happening, but if it does, who might wind up in that car? Like I've said before, the old Roger Penske would never have put up with Kurt Busch's behavior for very long, even if he was producing. If Penske were to release Busch, Bayne would be a perfect driver for that car, because his personality fits the what Penske ctraditionally likes to a tee, as does his racing style of laying back, getting into a position to win, then pouncing when he has the chance. That was how Mark Donohue won the team's first Indy 500 in 1972, and how drivers like Tom Sneva and Rick Mears, who won five championships in six years raced, and how Al Unser, Sr. and Jr. raced, and they were successful in Penske's equipment. But no way in a million years would Roush ever do something like that. If Roush does let one of his young drivers go to that no. 22 car if Penske fires Busch [which as I said, there's a 1 percent chance or less of that happening], that would reveal the true situation that Roush finds himself in, regarding sponsorship. After all, he has more competent drivers [five] than he has sponsors [only two of his cars are currently sponsored] or available cars [four] at this moment. 334. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.01.2011 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Think of this: Dale Jr. has a crappier win percentage with Hendrick than Jerry Nadeau, Joe Nemechek, Casey Mears, and Kenny Schader all individually had with Hendrick. Guess who the MPD is? Yup, stinky. 335. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2011 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will never understand Dale Jr's continued popularity. I can understand '01 thru '004 due to his last name and circumstances, and maybe even for a few years afterwards. But it is pretty obvious that he has totally checked out. He has talent as he showed in his first 5 years, but he has mailed it in since 2007. How can. He continue to be supported? He doesn't even have a good personality. He acts like he'd rather be anywhere else on Earth. I don't get it. 336. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2011 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) * '04 337. Anonymous0 posted: 12.01.2011 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it really that awful that he is voted the most popular driver? The award has never been about performance, no reason to think it should be. 338. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.01.2011 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ some of us just wounder why people deal with someone who can't even win a race, let alone win a championship. There are some nice memebers of Jr. Nation but for rest well.............................. i don't know about. well he'd be doing better if Rick Hendrick gave a damn. 339. Anonymous0 posted: 12.01.2011 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't speak for anyone else but I don't care if he wins or not, I'd love it if he did. But that's not what keeps me as a fan, I like the guy as a person. I like listening to his scanner because he's hilarious. I like the fact that no other driver made me feel the way I felt as he was going down the backstretch at Charlotte in May. Heart was about to pound out of my chest, hadn't been that excited in awhile. He is a pretty good driver too, I don't think he will ever be a champion but I don't care. I was a fan of his father and just about gave up on the sport after he died, Jr somehow kept me in it and has kept me in it the past ten years. No matter how shitty the past couple years were for him or how conflicted I was after he made the announcement he was leaving DEI, I still stuck with him. It's possible he'll never win another race or he might win seven next year. I'm fine with it either way. By the way, I haven't voted for the most popular driver award since 2008. 340. Anonymous posted: 12.02.2011 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Jr won something this year, Same thing he wins every year. This should shut his fans up for a while. 341. Lordlowe posted: 12.02.2011 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale jr in my mind is a pathetic unmotivated slob who doesn't deserve the ride he has right now he doesn't deserve to be the most popular driver either what he does deserve is to be fired from his ride at hendrick motorsports and banished from NASCAR forever. P.S lets also eternally exile Danica from all of motorsports as well 342. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.02.2011 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru, I noticed that Bayne and Robby would actually work together well at times this year so if it is possible to come to fruition, I could see that happening. I never thought I'd say that when it comes to Robby Gordon though. I understood and completely accepted Dale Jr's popularity when he ran up front, won races and was in contention for titles. Problem is, he hasn't done that very often at Hendrick Motorsports, in a situation that he said was going to better his career going in. Seems to me he had better chemistry with DEI since he had his family working with him there and they might have understood him better than his current team does (although in my opinion, he doesn't help anyone understand what he needs). This is just a possibility I'm throwing out there. 343. BON GORDON posted: 12.02.2011 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon can not only race cars but he can also break dance as well.... 344. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.03.2011 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The most popular driver award needs some serious reform. What if the award was 50% fan vote and 50% Hall of Fame selection committee vote. The MPD is as relevant in its current state as the Heisman and BCS. 345. potatosalad48 posted: 12.04.2011 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If anyone saw the Nascar Sprint Cup Series Awards ceremony, Dale Jr. had a date. And if you saw his speech, he looked legitimately happy, which I haven't seen him look in a long time. 346. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.04.2011 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Broncos win again and well Tim Tebow can throw the ball. 347. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2011 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tebow! 348. Cooper posted: 12.04.2011 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) News Has broke that Kurt Busch, driver of the #22 Pennzoil Dodge for Penske Racing has been released. Holy Cow! This is crazy. 349. Cooper posted: 12.04.2011 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For the second time in his Sprint Cup Series career, an off-track issue has cost Kurt Busch his job. Busch will not return next season to drive Penske Racing's No. 22 Dodge, multiple sources confirmed to the Observer and ThatsRacin.com on Sunday night. An official announcement of Busch's departure from the organization is expected from Penske on Monday. Read more: http://www.thatsracin.com/2011/12/04/80040/penske-racing-fires-kurt-busch.html#ixzz1fcbmdfg9" 350. Eric posted: 12.04.2011 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not stunned. I don't see a top team picking him up for rest of his cup career. His legacy is going to be a very talented driver that could have been even better his career ended up thanks to maturity. Kurt has acted up multiple times at Penske. Roger gave him a lot of chances. The best ride available for Kurt Busch is Red Bull if a buyer is found. He would be an update from Vickers. I compare this to how long how waited to get a rid of Al Unser Jr. back in CART. Al Unser Jr. didn't win at Penske from 1996 to the time he was gone after the 1999 season. I know that was tough period for Penske in terms of being behind most that time from, but Al Unser's out of control drinking didn't help matters. I am sure Roger knew bout Al Unser Jr's heavy drinking before 1999. I brought up Kurt not able to get a ride from a top team because look at the following: RCR- Richard had problems with Kurt's younger brother. JBR- Joe probably thinks one Busch is bad enough one race team. I know deep down Joe wants to get a rid of Joey due to performance, but Kurt isn't the right driver. Roush - are you kidding me? Kurt burned that bridge and doesn't have the sponsorship for another driver anyone. Hendrick - Doesn't have room, and Rick had enough problems with Kyle anyway. Stewart Haas - can't happen. Stewart has Kurt's old crew chief. Kurt can't bring a sponsor for the races Danica doesn't run anyway. 351. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.04.2011 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roger Penske is the owner i thought he was, and doesn't take BS for long. Roger will find the right replacement. Roger Penske is the the best owner in NASCAR. (in terms of not dealing with BS from people) 352. Eric posted: 12.04.2011 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forget to mention that Stewart and Kurt had a bad history also before cjs3872 mentions it because he thinks I didn't know that or the fact Rick Hendrickwouldn't want a driver that called out Jimmie Johnson as a reason for not going to Hendrick Motorsports. I think the driver to replace Kurt in the 22 is David Reutimann. I am saying that because David's age make him a short term answer in that ride since Roger wants Sam back in cup for 2013. If David does well at Penske, he could be top of a list as a free agent after 2012 that could land him in the 20 car if Joey doesn't improve, unless Joe would put Ryan Truex in that ride for 2013. I don't see Roger putting Sam back in cup for 2012 because of the comments Roger made with him making the mistake sending Sam to Cup instead of the Nationwide series a first place. 353. Eric posted: 12.04.2011 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to type Hendrick Wouldn't instead of Hendrickwouldn't. 354. reffy posted: 12.04.2011 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My prediction: Penske hires Reuty, Kurt goes to a subpar team like Front Row, whatever happens to Red Bull, or goes owner-driver. Hmmm... an owner-driver Busch? Interesting. 355. Eric posted: 12.04.2011 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason I didn't mention Regan Smith is the fact he is under contract for 2012 and the fact I think Roger wants a short term driver for the 22 before Sam gets the cup ride. If Regan Smith was in the 22 car, I think he would make the chase and would thrive under Penske tough. Regan is better than the equipment for Furniture row racing is. I realized now that Fox now has the story up and speculation is David Ragan gets the ride. If that is the case, I really don't see David improving from what he did at Roush and David wouldn't be in the 22 car for maybe a couple years. What Penske would get is a great drafter, but is only capable of getting a top maybe 8 to 10 times a year. I think David 2008 season was a fluke. David is a driver that could finish in the top 20 in points, but not in the top 10. I think Kurt can get a ride in the Truck series or the Nationwide series because of Kyle Busch Motorsports. If Kurt goes to Kyle Busch Motorsports, he would be a favorite for the truck championship if he's willing to go that low instead of going to an uncompetitive cup ride. 356. Cooper posted: 12.04.2011 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Essentially Brad has become the A1 driver at Penske....Holy Cow! This dude made an unbelievable decision to go to Penske. Everything turned out great for him. If I'm Kyle Busch, this has to be the final and last wake-up call... His own brother has been fired by two of the best owners in NASCAR even though Kurt is a champion. Kurt needs to talk to Kyle and say "Brother, don't do what I have done...For it will get you nowhere farther than the unemployment line" 357. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.04.2011 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Monday will be the day if there is any truth to this (however i'm buying it more then i usually do) Possible replacements: Daivd Rooty: age is an issue but a soild guy who will not tear up equipment. Trevor Bayne: possible if Jack doesn't let him go. Even if he did, great fit. David Ragen: Hope not, not worthy of another Cup ride, Nationwide would be another matter. Robby Gordon: i know i know wishful thinking and chances are basically zero and Shell/Pennzoil would most likely want a full-time guy. But its a fellow Dodge driver and i STILL think RG deserve another shot at top notch eqiupment. In other news: Tiger Woods wins (i never doubt he would, just not so soon), TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (suck it haters), Packers are still unbeaten, Marlins are spending money like they are never had before (WHY!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! couldn't you do that before) and LSU and UofA are going to play for the National Championship (again WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!) More on this stuff later. 358. Spen posted: 12.05.2011 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Penske learned his lesson after Stremme. Hiring a wrecking ball is not a good idea. That should keep Ragan and Vickers off of the consideration list. Reutimann would make a good fill-in. Might not make the chase, but could potentially win a race, and won't tear up much equipment. (Which is more than we can say for Hornish.) That said, I expect Hornish to get the nod, and Parker Kligerman to get Hornish's Busch ride. But as for Kurt, the only real option I could see is Ganassi. He might ditch Jamie for Kurt. But I wouldn't bet on it. Front Row is out of the question, being a Roush satelitte and all. Maybe Germain? It would be a huge deal for any small team to land someone of Kurt's calliber, and at least he'd always be top dog, just as he likes it. 359. Bronco posted: 12.05.2011 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although this year has been full of shocking dismissals (Sorenson, Reutimann as drivers) and (Darian Grubb, Gil Martin, Todd Berrier, Brian Pattie as crew chiefs), what happened to Kurt just took the cake. No matter what he did off the track, Kurt could always win about 2 races a year and make the chase and consistently run up front. Which one of the possible replacement drivers out there is going to be able to do that? Was firing him really worth it? If the news is indeed true, which team is going to give him an opening so late in the season? 360. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.05.2011 - 3:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is kind of shocking seeing as Kurt is a winner and a champion in the Cup Series, but I am not surprised that he might lose his ride. He is just a major pain in the ass to his team, and has probably disrespected Roger Penske behind closed doors. Remember his "Dude" comment on the radio from Martinsville 2009? And yes Cooper, Keselowski is sure to be top dog at Penske now if the reports about Kurt's dismissal are indeed true. His best choice for a replacement in the #22 would probably be David Reutimann. He's won races for MWR and actually had experience running close to the front with them, so I think he could do well in better equipment. Ragan only seems to perform well when Roush is at their best, and Hornish needs more Nationwide time before attempting another go at Cup IMO. 361. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.05.2011 - 6:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Regan Smith would be perfect for the 22. He has severely overachieved at Front Row; he would have won the 07 Kentucky were it not for a blown tire; he consistently qualified and ran in top 15 in the almost start-and-park #58 in the Busch Series in 2005. I think Regan could win many races in the car. Heck, if Penske plays that right cards, he could have maybe as many as 15 wins between the two. 362. Smiff_99 posted: 12.05.2011 - 8:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd really like to see Reutimann get the job. SUCH a decent guy and he REALLY got screwed over by Waltrip. He could EASILY knock off a couple of wins in a factory-backed Dodge. Allgaier would also be a great (and popular) choice. Vickers? Nope. Ragan? Obviously not. Hornish? HOEFULLY not. I'm hoping that Roger keeps him in NW for one FULL season before moving him back to Cup. He made great strides this year (including that first win in Pheonix) so I think he should stay and contend for the title in 2012. THEN maybe try Cup again in 2013. 363. Smiff_99 posted: 12.05.2011 - 8:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) *hopefully. I know y'all get what I meant without me clarifying, but you'll have to forgive me.....unnecessary clarification is a force of habit (some might say even a hobby of mine) 364. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 10:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So many wrinkles in the Kurt Busch situation here. I will start with the first one: Yes he needs to be fired. Is he unbelievably talented? Absolutely. As long as his equipment is above mediocre are you pretty much guaranteed at least 2 wins per year and an easy cha$e berth? Yes. He won a championship when given the opportunity and has won 20+ races in a 10 year stretch. That is something Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick, Denny Hamlin, and his brother can't say (all top notch drivers). Is all the other bullshit you have to wade through when dealing with him worth it? Absolutely not! I say Kurt takes away more than he brings to the table. His attitude is the absolute worst I have ever seen. The way he talks to his own team, the way he cusses everyone in his path and makes it clear he sees tham as shit on his shoes, and most importantly the turnover he causes. He makes his brother look like a saint. Kyle is only guilty of having no sense for his place in the world and the fact that his actions have consequences. Kurt knows what he is doing, and he is nothing but a straight up asshole. And this has cost him two good crew chiefs in 3 years, including the one that a 2 time champion (soon to be 3) looked at in mid season this year and said "I want him to be my crew chief". And we have to mention something before talking about what is good for Penske's future. That is the Brad Keselowski factor. I'm not just saying this because I am a huge fan of his. The fact is he has established himself as a factor on the top level of Cup and a possible cornerstone to Roger's stock car operation for years to come. He has shown he is capable of handling dizzying, unexpected highs (the Summer of Brad 2011) and horribly dissappointing lows (last year's entire Cup season, and the first 10 races this year) without changing. Any replacement needs to compliment Brad and be able to push him and Paul Wolfe, the best crew chief of 2011. So for the 22 team, first off, they need a crew chief. Who should they get? That is easy. DARIAN GRUBB!!! Not only is he good, he will be motivated as hell. Seriously, all Penske officials need to quickly show Kurt the door, then run out, find Darian, give him some hangover medicine, and offer him the job. Right now. WHAT THE F**K ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!?!?!?!? Go now! He has the engineering smarts. He got to watch Chad Knaus for a number of years as well as the endless list of smart minds at HMS. He is a good crew chief as shown by having a Top 15 season with CASEY MEARS! He won 6 times with Smoke in '09 and '10 as he was getting SHR on the winning path. And he handled the adversity of being told he won't be coming back by winning 5 of the 10 cha$e races and straight up pick pocketing the Cup from the 99 team. He didn't let that be a distraction and used it as motivation. Imagine what he will do this year! As for the driver, I hope they don't grab David Ragan as is being reported. Nice kid, but he just doesn't have it. I like the Reutimann idea. A good stopgap while Sam gets the necessary seasoning in the NWide Series like should have been done to begin with. Plus you know he will also be motivated as hell. The only thing with him is the height of his true potential is. I think it is cha$e caliber, but it is impossible to tell with his only experience being in MWR's shitboxes. Yet he still won a race outright with them. I wouldn't be against him. But my choice is Trevor Bayne. He is young and he is ready. I know he has been kinda conservative, but I'm sure he'll get a green light from Penske to go get it. Especially if they get Darian. Him and Brad get along great, and I think they could push each other to be better. His personality fits right in with Penske. Plus he could be the Tim Tebow of NASCAR. Young devout Christian who has success and makes people feel good. He is my pick. 365. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 10:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) An open letter to the leaders of the BCS: F**k You! Sincerely, DSFF 366. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is Roger Penske the classiest person ever or what? Allowing Kurt to "part in a mutual decision"? You really think Kurt wanted to leave? But Roger allowed him a graceful "official" exit. Compare this to how Jack Roush handled his leaving or RFR. 367. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, kudos to Roger for doing what Joe Gibbs didn't have the guts to do with Kyle. 368. RaceFanX posted: 12.05.2011 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With the change this becomes Kurt Busch's final race for Roger Penske, the team he had driven for since 2006, when Kurt had the honor of being the driver who took over for retiring NASCAR legend Rusty Wallace. The had combinated for 10 points-paying victories plus one each in the All-Star race, the Bud Shootout and a Daytona 500 qualifying race (the latter two non-points events were 2011 wins). Given his lap 3 issues in this race what a sad way for a great combination to end. It seemed like they had turned the corner into serious Cup contention in 2011 with Kurt being one who helped light the fire under the team. 369. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.05.2011 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In other news: Tiger Woods wins (i never doubt he would, just not so soon), TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (suck it haters), Packers are still unbeaten, Marlins are spending money like they are never had before (WHY!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! couldn't you do that before) and LSU and UofA are going to play for the National Championship (again WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)" I'm glad Tiger won (needed it), now i expect him to win some more tournaments but ONLY 1 more major (it'll either be at the Masters, US Open or the PGA. No more Open Championships for him.) Now for Tebow, Trent Dillfer (a hater) and Marell Hadge (another hater) ACTUALLY gave him credit for setting up the win (he did really) and kept the team (the defense helped out by getting TORCHED by Christen Ponder) in the game with HIS ARM. Willis McGgehee (i hope i got that right) was a bad man when Tebow wasn't in the spread offense. And yes the defense helped out by picking Ponder off twice and getting a fumble (as well has getting TORCHED for 408 passing yards). Tim Tebow had his best throwing game i've ever seen him have. If any of you watched FirstTake this morning, Stephen A. Smith basically said "Tim Tebow has a limited skill set" DSFF, i'll let you take it from here. Packers are unbeaten, however i smell a "Patriots 07" for some reason. Now why in the blue hell couldn't the Florida Marlins (true name btw) spend tens of millions of dollars before there new stadium and name change but now they can. Oh i know why, BECAUSE MANAGMENT ARE BUNCH OF **** UPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BCS once again proves why its complete shit. Who beat who when LSU and UofA played? Oh that is right LSU did but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the "people" wanted to see this. I can't believe i'm going to say this, the computers had it right. The people got it wrong. And Wasn't the BCS designed to remove human error from the deciding #1 and #2? FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And on Kurt Busch, i will not miss you. 370. Scott B posted: 12.05.2011 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm in agreement with what the majority of the folks here are saying, that Reuti is the best of the known free agent drivers available at the moment, especially if Penske is looking for a short-term solution. David Ragan will always be an enigma to me. What happened to all the potential he showed in 2008? Maybe the change of scenery would reinvigorate him, but that's a gamble. A lot might depend on who they could find to crew chief for him. Vickers would not even be on my short list. Hornish needs to spend 2012 in NNW, and see if he can build on the win he picked up in 2011. Bayne would certainly be deserving if he gets released, and could be more of a long term solution. Ditto for Landon Cassill, though I haven't even heard his name mentioned as a candidate. Kurt is in a much worse situation than Penske, at least for the 2012 season. His options seem to be: A. Take a one-year deal with a non-competitive Cup team, and wait till there are more contracts expiring headed into the 2013 season. B. Start the season without any Cup ride at all, and wait for someone to be fired. That would be a huge fall for someone who made the Chase. But it could work out if he drove for Kyle in the truck series, an attractive scenario after the Hornaday incident had a ripple effect on Shrub's Cup ride. C. Smash his piggy bank and buy up the Red Bull team, and go looking for someone willing to sponsor a driver who's talented but volatile. December is not the time to start piecing together a deal like that, though. 371. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 2:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stephen A. Smith basically said "Tim Tebow has a limited skill set" DSFF, i'll let you take it from here." First off, on behalf of everyone from Winston-Salem I'd like to apologize for Stephen A. He isn't from here, but he played basketball at Winston-Salem State. Their football team plays their home games on the football field inside the racetrack at Bowman Gray Stadium (to 1/8 of the crowd). But Tebow has shown he can run, he can pass, he can lead, he can inspire, AND HE IS SIX AND FREAKING ONE!!!! Stephen A needs to stick to covering the NBA. 372. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2011 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Vickers would not even be on my short list." Vickers wouldn't be on my extremely long list of every single conceivable driver I would even think about possibly considering debating about placing behind the wheel. 373. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2011 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roger Penske's releasing of Kurt Busch today shows me who's REALLY in charge at Penske Racing, and that's Roger himself. As I've mentioned, the Penske of old would have fired Busch a long time ago, but for him to release a man that scored a win for him in both the All-Star Race in Coca-Cola 600 in 2010 [the first points race at Charlotte ever won by Penske], as well as someone that once ascended to the championship in 2004 tells me that Roger's still in charge there, and he always will be, as long as he is physically able. As for who would replace him, while he won't light the world on fire, David Ragan isn't a bad choice, if Penske wanted to restor the reputation of class associated with Penske Racing that goes back to the days of Mark Donohue. Frankly, I think Penske would be going after the wrong Roush Racing driver, as I think he should go after Trevor Bayne, if he can, which he might not be able to. Remember that Bayne, to me, races the same way that another driver that Penske took a chance on in 1978 did, racing smartly and conservatively for much pf the race, then making his move at the finish. That man's name was Rick Mears. Bayne also, to me, has the technical ability that has always been a hallmark of Penske drivers, going back to the days of Donohue and Bobby Allison. But Ragan is not a bad hire at this particular time, eiither, since the one thing he doesn't figure to do is rub people the wrong way. Call it Penske's version of Gerald Ford when he became president after Richard Nixon and the "Watergate" scandal. What the contry needed at that time was someone that could soothe the emotional pain the country was going through. Ragan would, I think, do the same thing at Pense after the hell that Kurt Busch put that organization through the last several years. He's not going to perform well there, but he will, most likely, bring respect back to that organization that's been lacking ever since Rusty Wallace retired after the 2005 season. 374. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2011 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penkse should hire Reutimann if want to pull a 2009 and hire whoever for a year so a better long-term option will be freed up to sign. It'd be a good opportunity for Reutimann to have a solid comeback year in a competitive car so he can find a long-term option as well. If they want to take on chance of finding someone for the future now, then try David Ragan for 2012 and see if a new environment can get him on track. Considering Penske's got some great plate equipment, it would automatically make him a Daytona 500 favorite. Although he would've been anyways if he'd stuck with Roush. I agree about Bayne being a great choice, but I don't think Roush would let him go. Here's Jayski's list of the other 2012 free agents who were 2011 full time drivers: David Gilliland [was in the #34 FRM ride] Travis Kvapil [was in the #38 & #55 FRM rides] J.J. Yeley [was in the #38 & #55 FRM rides] um... yeah, no chance in hell with any of them. I'm hoping Penske learned from his past mistake and won't throw Hornish right back into Cup. The Phoenix win was promising, but Hornish's biggest problem in Cup was consistency and keeping the car in one piece and that's something he's better off learning in Nationwide. So where does that leave Kurt, as far as ever finding another competitive ride? RCR - They've got a 4th car open right now and Jeff Burton's closing in on the end of his career, but they've got Austin and Ty moving up. Roush - No. JGR - As long as they've already got the lesser of 2 evil Busch's, no. And even if not, I don't think so. Hendrick - No room at the inn. For real this time. SHR - Danica's already set in as SHR's future 3rd team driver. Who knows when or if they'll expand to 4 teams. EGR - Has JPM set name to paper on his extension with Ganassi yet? Because there was still some questions about that, which could leave the #42 as a surprise possibility. Or a 3rd team, who knows? MWR - I bet they're wishing they hadn't signed Mark. RPM - Separate enough from Roush that Kurt could go there, but they'd need to get a 3rd team together. Kurt's biggest problem is that it's so late in the year that it's hard to put anything together, but they've got recent experience at that in 2009 with AJ Allmendinger in a scrapped-together 4th car they managed to keep going through the whole year. Front Row Motorsports - 2-3 open vacancies since all their 2011 drivers are free agents, so this could be what Kurt has to settle for. Tommy Baldwin Racing - They ran a 2nd team for the last part of the season. And Kurt would be a slight improvement over Geoffrey Bodine. James Finch - It'd really suck for Landon Cassill if this happened, but it's James Finch we're talking about and no driver is safe from being fired with him. 375. Spen posted: 12.05.2011 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt wouldn't last three weeks with Finch. 376. Scott B posted: 12.05.2011 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kurt wouldn't last three weeks with Finch." Gasoline & Matches! But Finch did put drivers like Jeremy Mayfield & Buckshot Jones in his Cup cars (for one start each) when other owners would just roll their eyes and say "Oh, hell no!" to the idea. He's just stubborn enough to try it. 377. LittleAl posted: 12.05.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is Roger Penske the classiest person ever or what? Allowing Kurt to "part in a mutual decision"? You really think Kurt wanted to leave? But Roger allowed him a graceful "official" exit. Compare this to how Jack Roush handled his leaving or RFR." How do you know it wasn't a mutual decision? The interview I saw with Kurt looked like a guy that didn't even know if he wanted to race anymore. He said it's just not fun, and he's lacking the passion it takes to be competitive. I'm not going to be surprised if Kurt takes an entire year off to get his personal life sorted out. I also wouldn't be surprised if he never raced again. He's made his money, he's won his championship, and enough races to most likely one day get into the hall of fame. He doesn't have much else left to prove, and being in a race car just might not be his biggest priority right now. These guys are humans after all, some things are more important to them than racing. I just wish Dale Earnhardt Jr. would figure this out, his heart hasn't been in it for years now. 378. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.05.2011 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "These guys are humans after all, some things are more important to them than racing. I just wish Dale Earnhardt Jr. would figure this out, his heart hasn't been in it for years now." THIS. (as the kids say now a days) :-P 379. 12345Dude posted: 12.05.2011 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just have to mention something on here, that no one has. Who the hell raised these two (Kurt & Kyle Busch). If I was their father or mother, I don't know if I could ever show my face in town. I actually listened to Kurt Busch for a whole race this year (on nascar race buddy). He is 10 million times worse than Kyle Busch. I can't believe he was my favorite driver when I started watching racing. Just a completely random comment I want to make on here that I never did. I get many nascar preview magazines every year (that predict who will finish in the top 20 in points, for the upcoming year). And I'm almost positive from 2002-2008 Jeff Gordon was predicted to be nascar champion 50 percent of the time. How many has he won since that time 0. Hes won 4 races in the last 4 years. In my opinion everything has gone amazing for Jeff Gordon in his career He has great children and great wife, and hes happy with where he is in life and history. I think his aggression is gone. I'm not saying his passion is gone. But I think he went from giving 150%, to now giving 90%. And I think the chase proved that. When it was time to step up this year he flopped. I know sometimes his aggression does come out (like at Atlanta this year) but I don't think he has what it takes to win another championship. Just my 2 cents. I'll admit I said Tony would never win another title as Tony as he was with Stewart Haas so I could be wrong. 380. Anonymous posted: 12.06.2011 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, I agree that the parents of Kurt and Kyle didn't do them favor being doing stuff like lying about Kyle's age for going Kyle to race. What Kurt and Kyle needed was the type of a childhood that my younger brother and I had in terms of discipline. My parents punished my younger brother and I growing up when we did something wrong. That meant you not able to play outside, not able to watch television, and not able to play play games. The only things you only allowed to do was go to school,homework, chores, having launch and dinner, reading books, or playing with your thumbs before going to bed. The other thing is Kurt and Kyle would have appreciate what they have if they grew up like My younger brother and I did. My younger brother and I did not get everything we want due to cost including a trip to Walt Disney World back in the 1980's. I had some cool toys like an original Optimus Prime for Christmas back in 1984 or 1985. That was a cool toy for someone that was a kid like I was at the time. The thing is I didn't get every cool thing out there while they were popular like the Nes. I picked out Atari 2600 Jr when I was nine and half years old because I was explained by cost what I could pick out for a game system. The price of the Nes in games at the time was a reason I picked the 2600 Jr. over a Atari 7800. I got a 7800 when I was 11 years old, but I didn't a Nes before I was 13 years old. My younger brother and I grew up appreciating that we had a 2600 and a 7800. Those two systems had fun games like Enduro, Food Fight, Jr. Pac-man and Xevious as an examples of games I had fun with. There is a catch though. People claim that kids that were brought up in Vegas didn't exactly are know to have a normal childhood though. I don't know if that is true, but I once had a classmate in 1994 when I was in High school that was raised in Vegas before moving to Wisconsin. I remembered that classmate saying that person didn't have a normal childhood living there as a kid there. 381. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.06.2011 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's offical, Kurt is OUT of the #22. As a fan of the entire Penske operation, I can't say I'll miss him. He, Ryan Newman and Jeremy Mayfield have been the only drivers in Penske's history I've actually rooted against (although for Mayfield, I didn't start rooting against him until he disrespected Penske over an off-year in 2001. Penske rightfully fired his ass, the same way he just did with Kurt). Kurt's obviously insanely talented, but he hurts team morale so much that it's not worth it in the long run. Jack Roush fired him for the same reason. If I were Kyle, I'd be taking note of this. Although he isn't nearly as bad on the radio as Kurt, in 2011 alone he got into many embarrassing incidents from a sponsor's point of view, and don't take it for granted how thick of ice he is on with his sponsors. M&M's basically said, "We'll resign with you, but no more screw ups" 382. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.06.2011 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann would be the choice. Ragan and Vickers aren't that good, and didn't prove much with top teams like Roush and HMS so I wouldn't expect them to do much in the #22. Reutimann on the other hand, won a legitimate race with MWR and had experience running up front with them. Plus, I think Regan Smith and Trevor Bayne (both of whom would also be fine picks for the #22, BTW) are both under contract still. 383. Mr X posted: 12.06.2011 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I say put David Reutimann in the 22, he deserves a cup ride, he beat Jeff Gordon in Chicago in MWR equipment, he could win multiple more in Penske equipment, and this is the blind obvious David needs a ride, Roger needs a driver, and a crew chief. Darian would be an excellent choice. And I do think that David is the best of all the guarenteed free agents right now. IMO age is the only issue, however this is likely only temporary until Sam Hornish Jr is ready for cup. Although I do think that Trevor Bayne would be a slightly better fit at Penske, I still think that Reutimann would do better in the car, plus Trevor still may have a Roush ride in 2012. I really hope that Roger doesn't rush Sam back to Cup, because right now Sam should be confident, he's won a Nationwide race, and now has a fulltime ride in Nationwide for 2012. No need to derail those plans to send him back to a place where his previous foray was brief and unsuccessful. I do feel that Sam will eventually be back in cup however. IMO no other drivers deserve the 22, David Ragan will be the weak link regardless of where he is, as his driving skill IMO is less then what the car can produce, if I were a car owner, I would have to be blind, deaf, and at gunpoint to even think about, possibly, considering, having Brian Vickers as a back up to my back up. Hopefully Roger is a better team owner then I am, being as I am not one. Nobody could do better the David Reutimann in the 22 and if he gets that ride it could really reboot his career. However Trevor Bayne would be the best fit most likely. However he is still under contract. This makes me wonder two things, where did this Kurt Busch come from, he's always had a temper, but never this bad, and its not like they were running that bad. Where was this temper during 2006, or 2008, and I have also been very curious for some time now about what kind of people Kurt and Kyle's parents are, and what kind of childhood is possible when you grow up in Las Vegas in the 1980's and 1990's. You're shaped in your parents image, look at Ned and Martha Jarrett, and then how Patty, Glenn, and Dale turned out. When you're parents live in an adult theme park, you're not going to see them at their best most likely. 384. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2011 - 10:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How do you know it wasn't a mutual decision?" LittleAl, I get what you are saying. I just think the timing of this (Kurt is pretty much screwed in the short term, possibly the long term) says he was forced out, most likely under pressure from the sponsor. I'm sure he felt a lot of unhappiness at Penske, yet he still signed an extension last year. If it were truly mutual, I feel this would have gone down in the summer. I agree he looked relieved in his interviews. I think this has been six years of tension building and building and boiling and boiling. I'm sure he is glad that is over. But I think he is masking the reality of the situation which is that one of the 5 best careers of the past 10 years has come crashing into a crossroads. It will be awhile before he is competitive again if ever. There will be many days where he pines to drive those Penske Dodges he blessed out so colorfully for the past 6 years. I give him credit for publically admitting he has issues and taking the blame for all the negativity surrounding him. That took a lot to do. Now he has to act. He is going to have a rough go of it in 2012. Despite the optimistic face he put on, his best case scenario next year involves all but plate races being situations where 25th is a good day. Can he handle that? Also, will this finally be the wake up call his brother needs to start acting right and start reaching the Jeff Gordon level potential he has, but has denied himself, his team, and us fans of seeing? 385. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2011 - 10:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A couple of things here. Let's remember how Kurt Busch got into the big time. He virtually got handed the car that Chris Trickle had been driving when Trickle was shot and killed in Las Vegas [Busch's home town] in late-1996, early-1997 [Trickle hung on for a while before finaly passing], so he got handed his opportunity. Sure, he made the most of it, but because of how he got that ride, I believe he's always believed that he's had a sense of entitlement. Now, as for Trevor Bayne. Sure, he's got a ride at Roush now [what it will be, we don't know], but the plain truth is, I don't expect that will last for the season, due to sponsorship issues, if he has one at the start of the season. And Roush and Ford are pushing for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. to be put in the Wood Brothers' car, which would leave the Daytona 500 without it's defending champion. So, as of now, next year's Daytona 500 may be the first since 1972 with both a Daytona 500 champion and series champion sitting out the race. And remember that Bayne is also eligible for the Budweiser Shootout and the All-Star Race from his Daytona 500 win, but might not have a ride for either. 386. Cooper posted: 12.06.2011 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How bout' Mike Wallace.... ---Raced For Penske in the past ---Brother Rusty was Penske's All-Time driver ---Talented Driver. Won a Truck Race when given adequate equipment last year ---Only will want 1 year contract. Perfect Stop-Gap for Hornish and/or Kligerman ---Respectable Veteran driver to get the negativity from that #22 team ---Perfect guy to associate with Brad and Parker 387. Anonymous posted: 12.06.2011 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Wallace is going to be 53. 388. Cooper posted: 12.06.2011 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So. You only need one year. Why am I going to waste big money on a guy for one year..lol 389. Cooper posted: 12.06.2011 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I seriously going to waste 5 million dollars on David Ragan/Brian Vickers/David Reutimann. Give Mike the ride. 390. Cooper posted: 12.06.2011 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just came up with a better idea. Steven Wallace. That makes even more sense than Mike. I could definitely see Rusty Wallace begging Roger to put Steven in the car. How bout anyone else? Would you like to see Steven in the #22 car. Everything makes sense considering Steven doesn't have a ride next year. 391. -Draco- (Candraco) posted: 12.06.2011 - 2:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is what I think might happen to Kurt: Run The Daytona 500 in an off team vehicle. Hang Up The Cup Series Helmet. Go To NHRA where he belongs. I wish drivers would actually consider racing where they might be more competitive instead of driving in the cup series for a paycheck. JJ Yeley was a bomb once he hit the Busch Series in 04, after all the insane talent he showed leading up to that (Just Like Joey Logano more recently) but I think Yeley would be better suited if we went back to Dirt racing or possibly Open Wheel. Same Goes for Logano. Elliott Sadler Obviously found a new home where he is actually competitive in the series he drives in but I think he would be a better fit for the Truck Series, (Same for Micheal Waltrip) I Hope Kurt Busch Goes to NHRA, he would probably be more competitive there than he ever was in Cup. Just my two cents on the matter. 392. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.06.2011 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Roger picked Steven Wallace for the #22 then i'd question it. Steven has gotten better at not tearing equipment up but i doubt he'd be ready for such an opportunity. Mike Wallace sounds like a better choice, experience, will bring the car home in one piece, doesn't push the issue. And Mike is one of the best RP racers out there, *IF* Roger does go with Mike, then he'll be a threat at the Plate races but most likely no where else. And Mike isn't the best Road Course driver, so i have no idea who would Roger put in the car then. (Robby Gordon). I could rant on the BCS some more but i'm not. BSU and TCU both get hosed. 393. Smiff_99 posted: 12.06.2011 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As much as it makes sense from a connection standpoint, Steven Wallace does NOT belong in a Cup car anytime soon, if ever. FIVE full NW seasons in fully-funded, solid equipment.......and his numbers are apalling. These are MY (personally selected) candidates for the 22 ride: 1) Justin Allgaier....after NASCAR's poaching of sponsors cost him his ride with Penske last year, Allgaier left the team on good terms. He stayed relevent this past year by picking up his second career win. He's a logical choice IMO. I mean, I'm sure Roger wouldn't have any trouble buying out a measly NW contract. 2) David Reutimann....this guy got SCREWED by Waltrip and he is soooo underrated. I'd really like to see him get another shot, and in a car that's worth a damn, to boot! That's it. Hornish is running NW next year (as he SHOULD be), Steven's a joke, Vickers is off his rocker, Ragan's WAAAAY too much of a gamble.....I say they either go after Allgaier or snag Reuty. I'd be quite pleased if either of those options came to fruition. 394. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.06.2011 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion, Roger needs a good driver who can drive all of the races for one year, if he's planning to bring Hornish back up in 2013. Reutimann fits that bill, and he's NOT under contract at this moment. Seems like a no-brainer to me. BTW, I know he hasn't exactly lit the world on fire like the other well-known drivers in Cup, but look who he was driving for. MWR kept DNQing like crazy when they first came into Cup, and Truex hasn't been able to do any better than Reut has. Heck, he's rivaled David Ragan's numbers, and Ragan drove for Roush! Reut's actually got him beat in laps led (I know this stat doesn't mean much to some people on this site for whatever reason, but to me it's an important stat which shows how often a driver runs up front or close to the front). I think an important factor in proving whether I'm right or wrong about MWR is to watch Clint Bowyer's performance next season. We know for sure he can run up front and win races because he proved it with RCR. If he goes to MWR and can't run any better than Reut or Truex, then I'll be strongly influenced to say that it's the equipment that held Reut back. 395. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2011 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There have been many that have bagged on David Ragan, and I'm one of his biggest critics, due mainly to all the mistakes he's made, rather tha n lack of performance. However, one thing we're all overlooking in Ragan's relative lack of performance in comparison to the other Roush drivers is this, and I'm just as guilty of overlooking this as anyone else is. However, since Mark Martin finished second in the points in the no. 6 car in 1998, when he won seven times, that car, except for 2002, when Martin finished second in the championship standings again in it, has never really performed that well, including from 1999-205, when Martin drove it. Remember that in 1999, Jeff Burton was becoming Roush's no. 1 driver in the no. 99 car. The downfall of the no. 6 car really began in 2001, when the entire Roush Racing group [except for Burton] was uncompetitive. Remember that 2001 was also Matt Kenseth's worst season in Cup. Roush returned to form in 2002, and although Martin's no. 6 was the challenger for the championship, he was not the front runner that either Matt Kenseth and Kurt Busch were, combining for nine or ten wins, while Martin had just two. Then the no. 6 really went down the drain starting in 2003, scoring only two more wins with Martin, with one being that totally bizarre race at Dover in 2004, when he won, basically by just finishing while all his competition crashed for one reason or another, and the other was at Kansas in 2005, when Roush utterly dominated. So while we may bag Ragan for the decline of the no. 6 car's performance in recent years, the truth is that the no. 6 had been struggling, in comparison to the other Roush teams for years before Ragan even got there. I think Ragan may do better at Penske, if he winds up there as everybody thinks, than everybody, myself included, may think he'll do. Again, Ragan wouldn't be my first choice [Trevor Bayne or Justin Allgaier would be, Reutimann may, at 42, just be too old], Ragan would, to me, be the perfect choice, considering the circumstances, because Ragan might not set the world on fire for Penske, but he's not going to give the team negative publicity, nor put the members of the team down. Basically, what I'm saying is that Ragan might give the Penske team, especially the no. 22 car, the morality boost it needs. And again, given what was becoming of the no. 6 car before he ever got there, as well as the relative lack of effort Roush was putting into the no. 6 car, much like what's been happening at Gibbs in relation to the no. 20 car, that Ragan may surprise at Penske next year. Then again, he might flame out as he did with Roush. That is, assuming he signs with Penske, which from what I heard, is merely a foregone conclusion. 396. Cooper posted: 12.06.2011 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just to clarify, I'm pointing out drivers that I'd want to see in that seat, not who I believe will actually end up there. Obviously Steven and/or Mike have just as good of a chance as I do. I'd love to see Robby Gordon get it as well. The only driver with a real chance who I'd like to see is David, but I'm neutral on him anyways. There's not a lot of drivers I personally like so I'm gonna be upset at whoever gets that ride. But whoever it is, their personality is an upgrade over Kurt. 397. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2011 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's one for ya: What about RUSTY Wallace? This is just a wild idea that I just thought of and has no chance of ever happening, but it is fun to think about. With RWI being washed up and not worth a shit to begin with (copyright Days of Thunder, a very underrated line in that movie) and his TV career being the same, he has to have some time on his hands. He has said repeatedly in the past he wanted to drive another year, but had to leave in '05 for his TV career. We know for a fact he would be a great fit at Penske South as he pretty much built that place along with Roger and Don Miller. And he has set the modern standard for drivers and their sponsors. And what a story it would be! But of course it would never work. He has been out of the game for 6 years now. That is too long, especially when you consider all the changes that have happened since (the COT, double file restarts, the necessity of being aggressive every single second you are out there). He'll just have to stick to telling us those "I tell ya, you got that right, those hot rods are flat flying, that's for sure!" during those annoying studio breaks in the race while DJ and Andy are taking a piss break. But you have to admit that is a fun fantasy! 398. Bronco posted: 12.06.2011 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With Mike Ford's departure as the crew chief for the #11, that makes it 11 competitive teams that will enter the 2012 season with a new crew chief than they started 2011 with. The teams that changed crew chiefs are the 5,11,14,16,22,29,31,42,43,47,56. 399. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.06.2011 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd love to see Robby Gordon get it as well." Roger would have to do one hell of a sell job to get Robby in the car. He'd also have to sell Shell/Pennzoil to let him have the ride. Even for a year and Robby would have to commit to a whole year (Shell/Pennzoil and Roger wouldn't take anything less then a 36 race season i would bet) 400. 18fan posted: 12.06.2011 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The end of the Mike Ford-Denny Hamlin partnership was inevitable after they lost the championship last year and then were so bad this year. Rumors are that Darian Grubb has visited the JGR shop. As far as Ragan is concerned, except for 2008, he has never put up the numbers that Mark Martin did in 2003, which was Mark's worst year. Yes he won this year and Mark didn't in 2003, but Ragan had less top 5s and less top 10s than Mark did that year. 401. Spen posted: 12.07.2011 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan is no Mark Martin. Which is kind of Cjs's point. If Mark couldn't put up good numbers, what chance does Ragan have? But while that is a valid point, and one I've brought up myself, I think that Ragan's main issue is confidence. Much like McMurray, I don't think he thinks he belongs at Roush. But I'm not sure that having him replace a former champion and teaming up with someone who's won four times as many races in less than half the starts will inspire much self-confidence either. Ragan belongs at a small team where he can be their main focus. Ten years ago, that wouldn't have been a problem. He could have gotten a ride with Travis Carter, Andy Petree, MB2, or Cal Wells, and ended up running respectably well. But these days, other than Furniture Row, there aren't any teams like that anymore. Oh, and since every other Wallace has been mentioned, how about Kenny? At least he's under fifty, and unlike Mike, has actually managed a top-thirty points finish. Plus he's replaced Kurt before. Reut Man is still my first choice though. He's the only contender who I think could thrive at Penske. Cjs: Mark's back was injured in '99, and that may have contributed to his declining results, but your point still stands. 402. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.07.2011 - 1:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The notion that NASCAR is more competitive than ever nowadays is spot on and 110% true. Although Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford made the cha$e this season and won at Michigan, they still felt it was time to end their partnership at the #11 team, as Denny had his worst season to date. They had a great run, winning 17 times and finishing in the top 5 in points 3 times during a 6 year span. While it's true Mark Martin wasn't doing much in the #6 car in his final years, he was still at the very least making the cha$e and grabbing his annual one win of the season in the years that he did win. Even when Roush wasn't that good (with the exception of 2001 and 2003 where he went winless but still did better than Ragan has). Fun fact of the day: In both of the years that Kurt Busch lost his ride with a top team, Tony Stewart won the championship (2005, 2011). 403. Frank posted: 12.07.2011 - 5:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a fan of Kurt Busch since end of 2005 I have to admit that he really deserved to be fired. Now I am more wondering about who's gonna be in #22 that where Kurt will go. Even more sad than fire itself is the thing that Kurt is no smarter and mentally tougher that his younger brother. Unfortunately, Ragan is the most likely candidate. Just because recent experience learned us - expect worse in such situations. No talent but perfect behavior in terms of PR and sponsorshit (intentionally misspelled). And money nowdays is much more important than talent. Ragan can drive the car? Gosh, all of them can! Mike Wallace sounds interesting and nice. Steve - no way, he's pure wrecker. Rusty retired for sure and worth a lot of respect not to hang with S&P and underfunded teams like Terry do (announced 2006 to be his last season). Trevor Bayne will be a dream to me. Even more than Kurt in #20 (was tiny possibility of it at the end of 2008 also) 404. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2011 - 10:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, you're right about Mark Martin having a back injury in 1999, and then, to make matters worse, he crashed, either in practice for, or during the Firecracker 400 that year, making things even worse, but that still wouldn't explain the team's drop in performance in future years after Martin had his spinal fusion surgery, after which Martin said he felt great. Part of the problem in 2000 may have been his disheartening loss in the Daytona 500, from which he had a hard time recovering. But when Roush Racing, in general made their comeback in 2002, Martin's no. 6 car seemed to lag behind the others. Certainly age had something to do with that, but the team lagged behind the other teams. And you talk about Ragan needing to be on a smaller team to succeed, much like Jamie McMurray. Well, in today's NASCAR, Roger Penske's team is one of the smaller teams, especially in the Cup Series. After all, Penske only runs two cars, and are the only Dodges running competitively, so Penske really is on an island where NASCAR's teams are concerned, much like he was when he ran the AMC Matadors from 1972-'75. Now, Penske is not a team like Furniture Row Racing, Phoenix Racing, or the Wood Brothers, all of which need help from bigger teams to be to compete, but among the fully funded teams, Penske's is one of the smallest in the Cup series, and has no other affiliations from which to pool information, so if they get behind, it's much tougher for them to catch up, though if they somehow get an edge, they're likely to keep it longer. But as long as Penske runs just two cars and is the only Dodge team in the sport, they're going to find the going very tough. 405. Scott B posted: 12.07.2011 - 10:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since we've run out of Wallaces to talk about (except Chrissy), how about this from a racing connections angle? Casey Mears. Nice sponsor-friendly guy, from the same mold as David Ragan. Terminating his contract with Germain could probably be worked out... especially if Germain was interested in putting Kurt in the #13, which wouldn't be a bad place for him. Not neraly as likely as Penske taking one of the two Davids, but makes you go hmmmmm. 406. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.07.2011 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Casey Mears isn't worthy of the #22. Nice guy but isn't worthy of such a ride. He did decent in the red-headed step child car at HMS and did nothing at Ganassi (even for what the ride was worth coming from finishing 35th to 22nd in points is an improvement) 407. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2011 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "did nothing at Ganassi" 2006 wasn't a terrible year, only 2 top 5's but he finished 14th in the standings. But that reminds me, Darian Grubb was Mears' crew chief when he drove the #25 Hendrick car in 2007. Probably the most competitive season ever for the 4th tier HMS car, and Mears' best season by far. I think Grubb to the #11 could put Denny Hamlin right back in the championship hunt next season. 408. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2011 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I were Darian, I would be weary of JGR. First off, as I've mentioned over and over, this switch to TRD looks to be forcing the organization to take a step back (although I could certainly be wrong). Secondly, there is the Kyle Busch factor. The first 1/3 of 2012 will see JGR having to dedicate a ton of time and energy to making sure Kyle doesn't step even an inch out of line. That, as Dale Jarrett would say, is a tall order. And third, the whole organization is in flux. All the principles on the #20 team couldn't be unhappier. Plus seeing their former driver win the Cup by winning half the cha$e races, and 11 total since he left compared to their one giftwrapped win with Joey has to be wearing on them. The 18 team will have to dedicate a signifacant amount of their time to babysitting. And Denny has to reclaim his confidence. I think he needs to take a look at Penske. Assuming they don't hire a complete bum like Vickers for the 22 car, he could instantly have an impact there. He could help push the Brad/Wolfe power combo to the top and start a new successful program of his own. Penske is ready now. Obviously JGR will be back on track again sooner than later. But the near future looks pretty rough. 409. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2011 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as Mark's dropoff after '98, you have to remember Ford had an insane advantage in '98. People forget this because Jeff and the 24 team won 13 races. But if you look at that season, he led a surprisingly low number of laps led. He led more than twice as many in '95, the year Chevy had the insane advantage, especially when out front (see the '95 Brickyard 400). Pretty much a Ford team would lead 2/3 of the laps in '98, Jeff would hang around, work his magic behind the wheel to get to the Top 5, and pounce in the end. The Fords were simply killer that year, and the 6 team was at the forefront of that. Just look at the other Chevy teams. Terry was mostly a non factor. MMM got a short track win with the underrated Bobby Hamilton and did little else. And Earnhardt, despite his emotional Daytona 500 win, had the worst season of his career. Seriously. He finished as low or lower in points at other times, but at least there were reasons. In '82, '83, and '85 he had constant mechanical issues, and in '92 he was abducted by aliens while they sequenced his DNA for their master race so they could also have awesome moustaches and side splitting one liners (I told him he was Number One). In '98 he just plain sucked. He was never a factor outside of the plate races and routinely got lapped from being slow. The combination of injuries, RCR falling behind, chemistry issues as him and Larry Mac split up and he had to start from square one with underrated Kevin Hamlin, and the Chevys being behind the Fords, and it was a sad year for The Intimidator. 410. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.07.2011 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2006 wasn't a terrible year, only 2 top 5's but he finished 14th in the standings." 1 of those top 5's was at Daytona in the 500. If he'd gone with Ryan he may have had a shot at winning the thing but instead he went with Jimmie and never had a shot at pulling an upset (Ryan winning it would have been an upset but he end up doing that 2 years later) The only times i remember in 2006 that Chip had a shot at winning a race with Casey at the 500 and Reed at Cali (which he sadly ran out of gas). I may (if i'm not lazy and not Tebowing *LOL*) canpile of a list of the top finishers of every Daytona 500 ever run. 411. 18fan posted: 12.07.2011 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I have every race from 1998 on tape and it is incredible to see where all the GM cars were running compared to Jeff Gordon. Besides good stretches by Bobby Labonte, the underrated John Andretti(He was very consistent and could easily have won both Martinsville races that year), and Bobby Hamilton, the #24 team was the only competitive GM car consistently. Also I remember that Earnhardt started running better once Kevin Hamlin took over for Larry Mac. 412. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.07.2011 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Sr and Larry Mac just never had that good of chemistry for whatever reason. Going in, everyone thought they were going to be a killer combo but they never produced much of anything aside from the Daytona 500 win. He did better with David Smith just before Larry Mac took over, and did better with Kevin Hamlin afterwards. 413. Spen posted: 12.08.2011 - 6:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: While Penske is small-time compared to Roush, they're still expected to win every year, and contend for the chase. They're second-tier. Ragan would work best with a third-tier team, that expects to finish 20th or lower in points, and would be surprised at a race win. But still good enough to have the occasional great run. And there aren't many of those teams left. DSFF: While Ford's edge in '98 certainly makes Mark's drop-off seem more dramatic, it's still pretty telling when someone who's finished in the top-six in points for the last eleven years is suddenly eighth, and being outrun by Jeff Burton. Interesting theory about Earnhardt's '92 season. :) 414. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2011 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I consider Penske's NASCAR operation to be small when you compare it not only to Roush, but to Hendrick, Gibbs, and Childress. Sure, it's a big racing operation, but most of it's focus is where it has been since the early 1970's, and that is in IndyCar racing. And Penske struggled there as a whole, as well in 2011. But also, unlike Childress, Gibbs, Hendrick, and even Roush, Penske can not gather information from other teams running the same make of car, as he is the only one running Dodges. Childress and Hendrick can not only gain info from each other, but also from Stewart-Haas and Earnhardt-Ganassi. Roush can gain info from Richard Petty's team [which is where Roush got the info that righted his operation], and even from some of thne smaller Ford teams, such as the Wood Brothers. And Gibbs can get info from Michael Waltrip Racing, and before they shut down, Red Bull Racing. But Penske has no such luxury, as he's the lone wolf among the Dodge teams. And DSFF, about Darian Grubb possibly becoming Denny Hamlin's new crew chief at Gibbs, I don't think that's such a bad thing. Remember that their engine problems in 2011 started before the season even started with that fire in their engine shop, and they never really recovered from that. Plus, it's the 20 car, not the 11, that Gibbs doesn't really care about, and hasn't since Kyle Busch got there on 2008. Just look at the results and the way the 20 has run since Kyle Busch's arrival, and that will give you all the proff you need to know about that situation. That's why Tony Stewart left Gibbs when he did, because he saw the writing on the wall before anyone else did. The problem with the 20 isn't Joey Logano, nor is it Greg Zipadelli. It's just the fact that Gibbs doesn't care about that team, and hasn't dsince Kyle Busch got there. But Hamiln has no such worries. I think you'll see him back among the leaders next year. Remember that Hamlin also dominated at Pocono in both races, as he usually does, but ran into bad luck, as was the case at Martinsville. He ran great there, especially in the Spring race, but ran out of fuel twice. If Hamlin doesn't have the bad luck he had this past season, he'll be back where you're accusomed to seeing him run. 415. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.08.2011 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just saw Gordon's DuPont scheme for next year. I don't like it. I think it is his worst DuPont scheme yet. Oh well, he'll still win in it. 416. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.08.2011 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Having Grubb been Hamlins CC isn't a bad thing, Grubb can make good calls from the war wagon and keep Hamlin focused. He kept Smoke focused. the only problem i for see it him is working with Baby Busch. "Just saw Gordon's DuPont scheme for next year. I don't like it. I think it is his worst DuPont scheme yet. Oh well, he'll still win in it." I haven't seen it but are there flames on it? 417. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.08.2011 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ No. It's black on the front with a red oval going downwards on the sides. It looks kind of like the #25 did in 2001 and 2002. 418. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.09.2011 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The overall design reminds me of his 2000 "End of the Rainbow" scheme, only not as good. Which is saying something. That scheme never got the recognition it deserves as a bad special scheme. Why? Cause he ran it in the same races Dale Earnhardt ran the Peter Max car. In the category of bad special schemes, it is easy to be eclipsed by that one. Almost as bad as the McDonalds Tie Dye car (the one Kenseth made his cup debut in). Marty Robbins would have been proud of all those schemes. 419. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.09.2011 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin lost his edge in 2000 due to a series of equipment failures after winning Martinsville and then having Jeff Burton become the number one driver at Roush after mid-season. It is interesting to note Burton's team helped Jimmy Fenning and Mark's team with setup notes at Martinsville in April. After Burton's six win season in 1999, a lot of resources at Roush shifted to the #99 team. In other news, a deserving Robert Griffin III is a near lock for the Heisman. 420. cjs3872 posted: 12.09.2011 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, I'm not sure you remember, but in that race that Mark Martin won at Martinsville in 2000, he ran so terribly that, after the race, he said that they should lock him up in jail that night, because of how he stole the win in that race. In fact, I believe Burton made a similar comment about his poor run and great finish in the same race. And you're right about the resources shifting to the no. 99 team in 1999, espcially after Martin's back injury and crash at Daytona in July, which only worsened that situation. And the no. 6 team has never really recovered from that, to this day, as in the last 11 years, it has won a total of five races, and now, may disappear from the circuit, at least as a full-time car. I still think we'll see it [the no. 6 car] on the track with both Trevor Bayne [especially in the non-points races for which he's eligible from his Daytona 500 win] and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. [if he's not in the 21 car, which would be a HUGE surprise] in select races in 2012. Also, I don't think Martin and that team ever recovered from waht happened at the Daytona 500 in 2000, and how they lost that race. That also took a lot of the air out of that team's balloon. I believe something similar happened to the no. 24 team after the fall race at Richmond this year. RCR snookered them with bizarre team orders, and losing that race the way they did affected that team the rest of the year. We'll see if that emotional damage done to that team carries over into next year. I suspect it will, if only for a short time. 421. LordLowe posted: 12.09.2011 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF you should take over as driver of the 22 car 422. LordLowe posted: 12.09.2011 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At post 420: I heard the 2000 Daytona 500 was one of the main reasons for the rule changes in the restrictor plate races because of how atrocious the race was 423. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.09.2011 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Only the Fords could have made passes that day, ask Johnny Benson. "It's black on the front with a red oval going downwards on the sides. It looks kind of like the #25 did in 2001 and 2002." Oh great, they got rid of the flames. #25 from 2001 to 2002 wasn't my most favorite paint scheme. Atleast it has red and black on it (couple of my favorite colors). 424. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2011 - 8:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That would be a funny scenario LordLowe. Dr. Punch: Well DSFF looks like you guys blew an engine. Any word on what went wrong? Me: Well Doc, our Shell Pennzoil Dodge Charger had something come apart internally and we dumped a lot of oil on the track. But at least we didn't dump it in the Gulf, so we are making progress! Yeah, I wouldn't be good for them either. 425. cjs3872 posted: 12.10.2011 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, I never mentioned anything about how bad the 2000 Daytona 500 was. I just referred to that race as a major reason for the downfall of Mark Martin the no. 6 team because of how they lost that race, and how they never really seemed to recover from it. And by the way, if it hadn't been for the crash in the tri-oval, they wouldn't have passed Johnny Benson either, because you couldn't pass. But that race simply showed just how bad the racing had becaome there, but a race like that at Daytona was actually four years in the making, because the 1995, '97, '98, and '99 Daytona 500s really weren't very good either. It's just that those races either had great moments, or great feel-good stories that the 2000 race lacked. The 2002-'04 Daytona 500s were just as bad, in terms of the lack of passing. In fact, you could tell how bad it was when, in the 2002 race, the field, running about 3-5 MPH faster, caught Shawna Robinson, and then was forced to run her pace, going from 185 MPH down to about 180, simply because they couldn't get enough momentum to pass her. The bad racing at Daytona had to do with the fact that the draft was actually working in reverse, hindering the trailing car, insted of aiding it, due to the air flow to the carburetor, and how the air was actually bypassing the vents at the back of the hood. 426. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.10.2011 - 11:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Goes to show that the old style of racing produced stinkers, shame "fans" choose not to remember it. 427. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.10.2011 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes I do remember that comment from Mark at Martinsville cjs3872. The other race at Daytona in 2000, the Pepsi 400 also proved how difficult passing was at Daytona in the late 90s and 2000. Jarrett started on pole and led to the first round of pit stops and Bill Elliott led through the middle portions until a wreck with Skinner took him out of contention. Jeff Burton grabbed the lead and held off Jarrett, Rusty, Mark, Earnhardt, etc. over the final laps. It proved to be the last straw in the mandated shock and spring RP program for 2000. The wicker bill debuted at Talladega in October 2000. 428. Lordlowe posted: 12.10.2011 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about we put the Ultimate Warrior in the 22 Car that would be really interesting especially his interviews. Anyways not all the restrictor plate races from the first RP age in 1988-2000 weren't all stinkers in fact there were some pretty good races from that era here is a list of some of those races 1988 Diehard 500 1989 Pepsi 400 1989 Diehard 500 1991 Winston 500 1991 Diehard 500 1993 Daytona 500 1993 Pepsi 400 1994 Daytona 500 1994 Winston 500 1996 Daytona 500 1997 Diehard 500 ( My Personal Favorite RP Race) 2000 Diehard 500 429. Lordlowe posted: 12.10.2011 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS I do agree with you that Mark martin's performance took a roller coaster nosedive after that race 430. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2011 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The roof fin package provided the best plate racing since plates were mandated. Unfortunately it was the package on the cars when Dale was killed, so it got some of the blame, and totally unfairly. They didn't want to look at the overall lack of safety advancement and the heel digging in that area that went on, which was spearheaded by Dale himself. Although Dale did mention he felt softer walls were a good direction after his experience of crashing into the styrofoam at Watkins Glen, the fact is he had such archaic safety equipment it is a wonder he made it to 2001 considering the hits he took from '96 through '99. Plus there is the rumor that he had already loosened his belts (explaining why one of them broke) and chinstrap (explaining how his helmet somehow slid over his face, exposing the back of his head for the fatal blow, although the crash would have killed him anyways) on the backstretch when it became apparent one of his cars was about to win the Daytona 500 so he could be there to meet them when they rolled into victory lane. If you get a chance, watch the final lap and post race of the 2000 Texas race and pay attention to how quick he is out of his car with a hat on sprinting towards victory lane. Then, if you want, you can watch him and June interact and wonder how differently June's career would have gone had the Old Man been there the whole time riding his ass and forcing him to live up to his potential. 431. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.10.2011 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The roof fin package provided the best plate racing since plates were mandated." agree 100%. 2 car draft is second to that. Yeah i just said. With the COTs boxer greenhouse it's like having a wicker on your car and the drivers are doing what works best for them. i honestly think had they repaved Dega back when the wicker was around, they'd be pushing each other around then too. (Trucks bumpers don't line up and yet they did it at Tally, the drivers would have figured it out eventyally). The racing *might* be ruined at those places because of the new car. 432. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2011 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How about we put the Ultimate Warrior in the 22 Car that would be really interesting especially his interviews." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCv12ftT0I "1989 Pepsi 400" Includes the greatest BP in the booth moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQrIWEElApc THIS IS THE DOGGONEDEST THING I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!!!! 433. cjs3872 posted: 12.10.2011 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the problem with the roof fin package at the plate tracks was that, no matter waht happened, the field could not separate, meaning that pit stops were completely unimportant, because even if you got about 15 seconds behind, within a few laps, you were caught up again. That's why the drivers didn't like it. Frankly, I'd like to see the roof fins back on, but on the high-speed, non-restrictor plate tracks, so that drafting would be a factor at places like Pocono, Michigan, Indy, California, and even possibly tracks like Texas, Charlotte, Chicagoland, and Kansas. What people forget, or haven't been fans long enough to know, is that the races at the 1.5-2 mile tracks used to be some of the best on the entire circuit in the 1970s and early 80s. That's because drafting was an important factor at those places back then. The reason the cars get spread out so quickly at places like Michigan, California, Pocono, and Indy is that the cars can't draft any more, due to the slick aerodynamics of the cars, which don't puch a very big hole in the air. Put drafting back as an important factor at those places, and you'll see great races there, because the cars will be able to run closer together for a much longer period of time, and you'd probably see the slingshot pass at those places, not just at Daytona and Talladega. If that happens, the stands at those places will fill up again, just like the old days. Maybe even at Indy. Remember that the Ontario Motor Speedway, which was a replica of Indy, had some incredible racing back in the 1970s, so if you put drafting back as an important factor at the high-speed non-restrictor plate tracks, you'd probably see the same kind of racing at Indy. 434. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.10.2011 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Baylors RG3 on winning the Hiesman Trophy. A deserving school, team and player are rewarded. Now why hasn't Boise States QB gotten one? Oh i know why. *pukes* 435. Spen posted: 12.11.2011 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lordlowe: The '97 Diehard 500? Not sure that I'd call a race largly defined by a huge wreck that took out the top three in points a great one, but whatever. It was nice to see Kenny Schrader in the hunt near the end, though. "Goes to show that the old style of racing produced stinkers, shame "fans" choose not to remember it." Of course, some of us don't count '95-2003 as being "old style". For me, old style ended the second Chevrolet re-introduced the Monte Carlo. And Cjs is dead-on about the racing at bigger tracks in the '70's and 80's. To this day I still have no idea why Ontario and Texas World couldn't draw a crowd. Ontario's ticket prices were a bit steep for the day, but it wasn't *that* unreasonable. And the racing was usually worth the price of admission. 436. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.11.2011 - 5:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is cultural differences that ruined Ontario and College Station. In those parts, people only care for college sports and don't care if anyone else is dead. Same reason Americans usually hate soccer; it is not in our culture. 437. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2011 - 8:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, i agree that 1995 is a major cutoff for old vs new. That new Monte Carlo pretty much ushered in what we are seeing today on track. Even the COT really didnt change the on track racing as much (we just had to get used to how freaking ugly it was). Again, compare the Brickyard 400 in '94 and '95. Jeff and Ernie put on a hell of a show in '94. In '95 Dale and Rusty, the two best drivers from '88 thru '94 could only follow each other. 438. cjs3872 posted: 12.11.2011 - 11:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, NicoRosbergFan, the thing that ruined Ontario was that it was in Southern California. Trust it coming from someone that lived in San Diego for 31 years that pro sports isn't as important there as it is in other places, because of how much else there is to do there. How else can Los Angeles not have an NFL team for 17 years, and nobody truly cares if the NFL ever comes back. Or that San Diego lost two NBA teams [though one just went up I-5 to Los Angeles], or that there is next-to-no way that any new stadium will be built in either San Diego or Los Angeles that can be Super Bowl-caliber [the 50th Super Bowl in 2016 needs to be played in Southern California, where the first one was played, but it won't be, since there's no stadium there good enough to host the game]. Remember that's one big reason I believe that Auto club Speedway will NEVER draw big crowds again. Actually, they never drew big crowds there after the second or third year after NASCAR returned in 1997, even with just one race a year. Auto Club Speedway is one place where, even if great racing returned to the mid-sized tracks, fans just won't come, because stock car racing has never been big there. In Southern California, where auto racing is concrened, it's always been either drag racing [which was born in Soutern California] or Indy Car Racing, but stock car racing has NEVER been big there, and never will be. Again, trust someone that lived there for 31 years, NASCAR will never make it in the big time there. 439. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.11.2011 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs: you reiterated what I said in paragraph form. 440. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.11.2011 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Same reason Americans usually hate soccer; it is not in our culture." I like soccer, i guess i'm not American then. :-P "Even the COT really didnt change the on track racing as much (we just had to get used to how freaking ugly it was)." Another person who thinks racecars should sleak and sexy looking. Good Grief, the Peice of Shit COY was ugly, all bent and it really didn't even look like you could drive on the street. Atleast the COT looks like something you could drive on the street. Oh the irony of that ^ paragraph above, NASCAR is bring a new car into the light because "Fans" want something that LOOKS like you can drive it on the street. Yeah, we'll see how well that works. Even tho the COT works just fine now. 441. Lordlowe posted: 12.11.2011 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) at post 435: I do see your point but it was a hell of a race with an amazing finish with the top 2 finishers being from my home state maybe that is why I am a little biased toward this race 442. Lordlowe posted: 12.11.2011 - 2:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At DSFF: Not All the races in 1995 were bad The Coca Cola 600 had some very good racing which saw Bobby Labonte win when Ken Schrader blew up after leading 170 laps and looking like he would go to victory lane also in that race Labonte unintentionally bumped Earnhardt out of the lead after getting a heck of a run on the 3 car. Also that year's July's Pocono race was also pretty good too as the race featured nearly 40 lead changes and saw Dale Jarrett save his career by winning this race. 443. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.11.2011 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The roof fin era was one that did produce exciting racing, even though the circumstances got too extreme sometimes. In fact, wasn't a smaller fuel tank added for the plate races around 2003 in an attempt to spread out the field? That didn't work out too well. In the Spring Dega race, a big wreck on Lap 4 put half the field in the garage, leaving roughly 15-20 cars on the track. Apparently they did not count on a big wreck POSSIBLY happening that early in the race. 444. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2011 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good grief. I actually feel sorry for the Raiders. The Oakland Raiders. Never thought I'd say that. The Packers are burying them in the Frozen Tundra. In my lifetime I've never seen a team as good as this one (I wasn't old enough to remember the 49ers of Montana, Rice, and Lott). 445. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2011 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And they just got bit by the Tuck Rule again. Of course 10 years ago it actually meant something. 446. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.11.2011 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ you can blame the Tuck Rule on Tom Brady and Patriots. Even at a time when the NFL didn't have half of the crap rules they have now. 447. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.11.2011 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF i'm beating you too it. TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 448. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2011 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He does it again. 449. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2011 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) '95 Subaru, I never said the cars should be "sleek and sexy". NASCAR cars never have been. Although some have been cool as hell (the '68 Road Runner, the '69 Torino, the '71 Charger, the '73 Mercury, the '74 Monte Carlo, the '84 Grand Prix, the '86 Monte Carlo) they are sedans, not sports cars. And I agree the 2003-2006 models didn't look very good either. BUT........... There is a big difference from "not that good looking" (the pre-COT cars) and, as your guy accurately put it, a "flying brick". Between the ugly as sin black wing just sitting on the decklid, that splitter with the ugly metal braces, and horrible lines (nothing new) it stood out even more. 450. cjs3872 posted: 12.12.2011 - 8:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But RCRandPenskeGuy, when you have a race at Talladega in which someone near the front on the fourth lap blows a tire, and that's what happened to Ryan Newman in that 2003 race at Talladega in which you spoke, there's going to be a HUGE crash. There's no getting around it. Most of the time when there's a huge crash at Daytona and Talladega, driver error is to blame, but on other occasions, pure circumstances are to blame, and the wreck in the 2003 spring race was one of those occasions where circumstances, not an error on someone's part, was to blame. You can't blame that on the smaller fuel cells, which were a good idea at the restrictor plate tracks at that time. After all, Roush was getting such good fuel mileage at the plate races, that his cars could almost run a full 500-mile race at Daytona and Talladega on just two pit stops, if they didn't need drafting help from others prior to the fuel cell change. Back then, they could run 58-62 laps of a 200-lap race on one tank of fuel, so they needed to split the pack up, and the smaller fuel cells was the way to do it. 451. Talon64 posted: 12.12.2011 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you NBA and your f****** insane free agency and trade drama, it's making the racing off-season a lot easier to deal with. 452. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.12.2011 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Stern is the biggest d-bag there is in sports. My god does he stink at being Commissioner of the NBA. He puts Tony George to shame (and that is something that is about impossible to do) Since we are talking about PLate racing, might as well weight in on NASCAR "trying" to stop the 2 car draft. (this is what i have heard btw) 1. Do something to the nose: Yeah if that means making the bumpers uneven, yeah look at the Trucks series, THEY DO IT THERE TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its harder but still able to do it. (fail) 2. Messing with the spoiler and plate: Oh this "might" work but how will this affect the racing. In case people forget, the "old style" of plate racing put on stinkers because no one could pass anybody. If you (NASCAR) somehow "Fix" it but ruin the racing then what have you accomplished? Yes you stopped the 2 car draft but you have had your fix blow up in your face because "fans" are complaining (like they always do) that its boring. So you lose either way. And to give the glass half full view, it works and the racing is about the same, good for you. Here is my fix (and i'm spelling it out for people) L E A V E I T A L O N E. Who cares about the complainers, this just happened out of the blue and no one saw this coming. Let it be and it'll go away. And if "fans" have nothing else better to do but complain about something they don't like, then let them. You should be glad that atleast 2 of the most dangerous things about the "old style" of plate racing are gone (1. blocking 2. big packs which if and when someone screws up, it takes out half the field) Unless your Mikey Waltrip and find a way to cause a big one with the 2 car draft. 453. Anonymous posted: 12.12.2011 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good points, but don't be a snake. 454. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, to me, the biggest problems with the current drafting style is the pre-arranged deals that are made, and how that adversely affects some drivers and teams. Throw in team and manufacturer politics, and you have a royal mess on your hands. after all, the only way for the single-car teams to have a chance is to work with each other, such as the 7 and 21 did at Talladega, because they had no one else to work with. The 21 should have had help from the other Ford teams, but they didn't want to work with someone they, quite frankly, fear on those tracks. The same is true with the 51 car at Daytona in July. But I agree that what we have now at Daytona and talladega is better than what we had before, and it's about time someone agreed with me on that. After all, I could tell you with 20-30 laps to go who was going to win at Daytona, and that was the driver leading, if there were no caution flags, because you were simply stuck behind him, without a chance to make a move. Now you can, though it might actually be too easy now. The drivers don't like the racing at the plate tracks because they have little or no control over their fate. Well guess what? They didn't really have any before. My biggest problem at the plate tracks now is the ungodly slow qualifying speeds in relation to what you see in the race, and the way to fix that is to let the teams run a larger restrictor plate in qualifying to get the speeds in line with race speeds, and maybe bring back the 200+ MPH qualifying lap, which hasn't been seen in NASCAR since 1987. 455. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.13.2011 - 1:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can't blame that on the smaller fuel cells, which were a good idea at the restrictor plate tracks at that time." Good point, and now that I read your post and go back and reread mine, I did come off as blaming the smaller fuel cells for that Dega wreck. I was trying to make the point that the smaller fuel cells really didn't change much at all, and that big wrecks still happened. The example I gave was a bad one. Elliott Sadler's flip in the Fall race that year would have more merit than the 27-car pileup in April, seeing as Sadler spun off of Kurt Busch's bumper, I believe. The cars were still too close together. But like I said, it did produce exciting racing. The drivers had to pay the price if they got caught up in the annual Big One. 456. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 9:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But, RCRandPenskeGuy, when you have cautions, that will automatically bunch the field up, unless you go to something like what was used at Indy prior to 1979, which created more hassles, which included drivers ilegally closing up, as well as not allowing safety crews the adequate time and protection needed to clean up the treack during a caution period, because cars were always going by, albeit at slower speeds. The only way that the field would break up in a plate race in those days was by green flag pit stops, and I believe there had been a caution flag after the most recent green flag pit stop in the race you mentioned. Besides, that crash in the fall race at Talladega in 2003 was the fault of whoever was blocking Elliott Sadler, which caused him to come down on Busch, who turned him. The real reasons you had so many big wrecks at Daytona and Talladega was blocking and that stupid yellow line rule, both of which have been, for the most part, eliminated with the two-car drafting because you can't come down fast enough with the closing rates you have now. Now, if someone comes up to pass you, you just let him go by, since you know you can repass him anytime you want to, which is the way it was back in the old days. If you watch a race at Daytona and Talladega from back in the 70s and first half of the 80s, you'll know just what I mean. There was no blocking back then, except on the last lap, because drivers knew they could pass each other any time they wanted to, and just accepted it when they got passed. Heck, buddy Baker and Darrell waltrip allowed Cale Yarborough to pass them on the FINAL lap of the Daytona 500 in 1983 and '84, respectively, because they knew there was nothing they could do about it. In both cases, the driver passed wound up THIRD in the final results. 457. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.13.2011 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Thank you NBA and your f****** insane free agency and trade drama" Amen. This has been one of the crappiest winters in sports I can remember. I'm already ready for Daytona. Usually it takes me until at least just past Christmas. Not this year. Thank goodness for the Kurt Busch drama to somewhat hold me over. Thinking of Kurt driving the #51 (which gets chassis and motors from HMS, the same HMS Kurt has repeatedly slammed), finishing 25th week after week, and possibly getting punched out by James Finch after a race after too much radio griping has been fun. Other than that? Ugh. Here are my biggest non-racing gripes. -I don't ever want to hear the name "Jerry Sandusky" again. Ever. Unless it is followed by something like "was brutally sodomized in jail today". Then I'll love it. Let the court system put him away and quit reminding us of his sorry ass. -The NBA debacle as mentioned earlier. The lockout was supposedly to prevent situations like the Heat last year where superstars team up, leaving other teams hung out. Well the owners agreed to a deal to end the lockout, at which point Chris Paul IMMEDIATELY had a deal to team with Kobe in LA. So what was the freaking point of the lockout? But at least there was a saving grace in this: New Orleans were getting some pretty good building blocks for the future from LA which was actually weakening itself by giving them up. Fair trade. Only the owners pushed Stern around so he said "No, this won't happen". Just like that. Socialism at its best. I hate socialism. Good job assholes. -The NFL season. I tip my hat to the Green Bay Packers and hands down the best QB in football, Aaron Rodgers. They have assembled a hell of a team mostly through the draft and have sure as hell avoided the "fat and lazy" syndrome that can follow defending champs, especially a somewhat young team like Green Bay. But Good Lord, nobody else is CLOSE to them. It will take them epically screwing up in the playoffs for them not to repeat. With them having two games in January outside in Wisconsin, that is unlikely (especially if the indoor Saints come to town). Plus the Super Bowl will be inside just like last year, which ALSO benefits them due to their incredible versatility. Remember them carving up the really good Steelers D last year in Jerry World? It will happen again. If Brett Favre were still their QB, they would have a better chance of losing due to his ability to throw a pick at the absolute worst possible time (see the '07 and '09 NFC title games). No wonder Brett is so bitter towards Aaron. He is about to surpass his Super Bowl ring total in his 4th year as a starter (compared to Brett's 20 seasons). I think we are going to see a "49ers in '89" run through the playoffs. And if New England somehow meets them in the Super Bowl with their pile of trash secondary, GB might break the single game Super Bowl points record in the first half. Favre said he would listen to the Bears if they wanted to talk. He needs to see if he can return to GB as their backup so he can play the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl when the Pack are up by 30 and get his second ring and get back in the good graces of the Packers fans who are forgetting about him more and more with every incredible Aaron Rodgers game (which happens weekly). -Pujols turns down the chance to be a St. Louis icon like Bob Gibson, The Wizard of Ozz, and Stan The Man Musial (remember, STL loves the Cards 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in terms of sports) to go the Anaheim Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim Of Los Angeles who could give a shit less about sports unless Jack Nicholson is sitting on the front row for that team. They aren't even the #1 baseball team in LA. As cjs has mentioned, sports is way down the list in SoCal anyways. But among sports, their priorities are the Lakers (by a large margain), USC, UCLA, the Dodgers, the NHL Ducks and Kings (surprisingly popular in LA), and then the Angels. And if the Clippers get Chris Paul to go along with Blake Griffin and his awesome dunks, they will leapfrog the Angels. But they will remain ahead of Auto Club Speedway. -The BCS. Nuff said. -Tony Romo, Jerry Jones, and the Dallas Cowboys and how everything they do somehow means something. They have one playoff win (in the wildcard round) since '96. Enough already. Although it has been fun watching their kicker get iced in two straight weeks (once by his own coach!). -The Tampa Bay Bucs insistance on wearing those throwback creamsicle uniforms once a year. -Ryan Braun wins the NL MVP then gets busted for steroids. In other news, the #48 team is making him an honorary crew member for the Daytona 500 in the wake of that announcement. -The Monday Night Football matchups. They have almost all sucked. Rams vs Seahawks? WTF? -Tebow needing to go 7-1 before "the experts" finally mostly agree "Hey, having him at QB is a good thing!". 458. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the Packers are not going undefeated, as I think the Lions will beat them in the season finale, if for no other reason than I think that Mike McCarthy will pull his players, especially QB Aaron Rodgers, fearing that the Lions' [especially Suh] will try to injure Rodgers. And the Lions may need thgat game to earn a playoff berth. After all, the Lions are known for their dirty play. And if they do go 16-0, I predict the Giants will be waiting, and they'll probably end the Packers' perfect season, just like they did the Patriots in Super Bowl XLII, and the Broncos in the 14th game of the 1998 season. I remember something former Bears DB Gary Fencik once said. He said that if his '85 Bears went 16-0, that they definately would NOT have won the Super Bowl that year. And by the way, the Angels have been the no. 1 baseball team in Los Angeles since winning the 2002 World Series. After all, what have the Dodgers done since 1988? Even the San Diego Padres have been to the World Series since then. But the two teams that typify Southern California sports have, to me, been the Los Angeles Lakers and San Diego Chargers, especially when the Chargers throw the ball a lot, as they currently do. In fact, not counting the perenially hapless Clippers, no Southern California team has had a longer drought in making the championship round than the Dodgers have. On the racing front, I'll be interested what awaits in the 54th Daytona 500. I tihnk we'll see one of the top drivers and teams win the race for the first time in years, though I'm going to hold off on predictions for the 2012 NASCAR season until Christmas time. 459. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.13.2011 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1995 Subaru WRX STi, to me, the biggest problems with the current drafting style is the pre-arranged deals that are made, and how that adversely affects some drivers and teams. Throw in team and manufacturer politics, and you have a royal mess on your hands. after all, the only way for the single-car teams to have a chance is to work with each other, such as the 7 and 21 did at Talladega, because they had no one else to work with. The 21 should have had help from the other Ford teams, but they didn't want to work with someone they, quite frankly, fear on those tracks." I agree, NASCAR needs to "ban" driver to driver communication. Let the spotters communicate (they have always done that). We have to blame Jack Roush for this. #7 and #21 were basically the best 2 car draft out there until Jack Roush decided to pull a "Formula 1" move. "-The NBA debacle as mentioned earlier. The lockout was supposedly to prevent situations like the Heat last year where superstars team up, leaving other teams hung out. Well the owners agreed to a deal to end the lockout, at which point Chris Paul IMMEDIATELY had a deal to team with Kobe in LA. So what was the freaking point of the lockout? But at least there was a saving grace in this: New Orleans were getting some pretty good building blocks for the future from LA which was actually weakening itself by giving them up. Fair trade. Only the owners pushed Stern around so he said "No, this won't happen". Just like that. Socialism at its best. I hate socialism. Good job assholes." Its the owners of the small market teams that stopped the trade, which is kinda funny because its the small market teams that didn't want the current NBA deal, only the big ones did. btw does anyone find it ironic (i perfer the term hypocritical) that the NFL is suspending players for helmet to helmet hits (in the name of "safety") yet will not FORCE ts players to wear new equipment that is rated BETTER for protecting players? Yeah, hypocricy at its finest. "-Tebow needing to go 7-1 before "the experts" finally mostly agree "Hey, having him at QB is a good thing!"." the ONLY person who still slamms Tim Tebow is Steven A. Smith and that island he is on is getting smaller and smaller. 460. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.13.2011 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Following in the recently great tradition (i.e. some "experts woke up one day and decided, damn the stipulations) of matching the best two teams in college football through the BCS, can the NFL pair up the Packers and 49er's in the Super Bowl if they have the best records after the NFC Championship game? Who would be on the Packers and Niners rematch bandwagon? If they are the best two teams in the NFL, who cares if one team doesn't win their conference. Oh I forgot, the NFL has integrity in one area the BCS will never have. 461. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, if you watch the 1993 Daytona 500, you'll notice that the four Hendrick Motorpsports drivers, Jeff Gordon, Ken Schrader, Ricky Rudd, and Al Unser, Jr. were talking to each other during the race back then, and that was nearly 20 years ago. The had to work with each other because Roush pulled the plug on Carl Edwards intent to work with the 21 car was overruled by Roush. And let's not forget that the Hendrick drivers were doing the same thing, though they ran in the back, so there was no risk of being in an accident. And your statement about when the 7 and 21 stopped working together at Talladega was also inaccurate. They stopped working with each other when Robby Gordon ran into mechanical problems late in the race. Bayne was then going to team up with Marcos Ambrose in Richard Petty's no. 9 car [how strange would that have been, for the Wood Brothers and Richard Petty's car to team up], but Ambrose was caught up in a late crash. But the driver-to-driver communications is a necessary thing, because of the safety factors involved. And on the Tim Tebow thing. The question is, can he be a successful quarterback for a decade? It's obvious he's galvonized the Broncos, but can it last, or will he be another Joe Kapp? Kapp was a QB who's style was similar to Tebow. Kapp's unorthodox style of QBing helped lead the Vikings to Super Bowl IV in 1969, but his style led to him being out of the NFL by 1971. 462. Talon64 posted: 12.13.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The NASCAR off-season doesn't exist anymore. It's looking like Richard Petty Motorsports is going to kick AJ Allmendinger to the curb and replace him with Kurt Busch so they can keep sponsor Best Buy aboard. Because apparently RPM thinks that Best Buy will look at what Kurt did this past year and think, "This... THIS IS OUR DRIVER!" ...oh and I guess they'll look at the championship and 24 wins Kurt has. That'll leave the Dinger looking for a ride, but if I'm Penske he'd be the guy I sign to drive the #22 next season. If it happens, then I think it's a best-case-scenario-for-everybody type of deal. Otherwise, AJ's jinxed when it comes to NASCAR. 463. Talon64 posted: 12.13.2011 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) and JUST as I post that, there's now the possibility that Allmendinger could stay with RPM and that Kurt would drive a 3rd car. While replacing AJ with Kurt in the #43 sucks but makes a lot of sense, a team that can barely run 2 cars expanding to 3 is a terrible idea. Where's the sponsorship going to magically appear from to make that work, unless they're hoping to pick it up as the season goes on? At least getting the people to run it won't be a problem since there's all the former Roush #6 guys. 464. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Makes you wonder what's going to happen with the no. 9 car at RPM, doesn't it, Talon64? Remember that Marcos Ambrose has said that winning a NASCAR race on an oval isn't an obsession, like it seems to be with Juan Montoya. Besides, something tells me that Kurt Busch and his bad attitude will never be able to co-exist with King Richard. That would be the ultimate in class [Petty] teaming up with one of the most classless drivers ever [Kurt Busch]. On the other hand, Petty dearly wants to see his beloved no. 43 car back in victory lane, where it hasn't been since John Andretti last put it there at Martinsville in 1999, and that Petty has reached the realization that Allmendinger, who's performance was actually worse than it was in 2010, will never be able to win at NASCAR's highest level. To me, that says a lot about Roush's development drivers, and their shaky future with Roush, one of whom is the REIGNING Daytona 500 champion. After all, if Petty were to expand to a third team, at least part-time, if not full-time, wouldn't it have been a better idea to put one of Roush's developmental drivers in there? That tells me that one of them may soon get the boot due to sponsorship issues. And my gut has been telling me for months that driver is Trevor Bayne, even though Roush has promised both him and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. rides for next year. But we all know Roush's history with empty promises, don't we? 465. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.13.2011 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs i said "ban" because only to limit the amount of channels they have on the radio. I think i heard that one guy had 18 channels for drivers on his radio. 18 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to many to have. I'd limit it to 6 channels, 4 for teammates and 2 for others. Just limit the amount of channels you can use. (i highly doubt that will happen tho). Buy hey it would be a beneifit for a single car team, you have 6 channels to anybody you want. "And let's not forget that the Hendrick drivers were doing the same thing, though they ran in the back, so there was no risk of being in an accident. And your statement about when the 7 and 21 stopped working together at Talladega was also inaccurate. They stopped working with each other when Robby Gordon ran into mechanical problems late in the race." Still doesn't change the fact the #7 and #21 were the best 2 car draft, you know why? Robby dropped back at one point can picked up Trevor. Those 2 went from 34-35 place on track to the lead in 5-7 laps. Robby had Brad and Trevor for the 500 (his main dancing partners) but basically worked with anyone. Robby had Casey Mears for the spring tally race. Didn't turn out for some reason. (underrated pair that day) Robby didn't have the chance to do anything in the 400 because his car took a crap. Robby had Trevor for the fall tally race. Notice a theme? "And on the Tim Tebow thing. The question is, can he be a successful quarterback for a decade? It's obvious he's galvonized the Broncos, but can it last, or will he be another Joe Kapp? Kapp was a QB who's style was similar to Tebow. Kapp's unorthodox style of QBing helped lead the Vikings to Super Bowl IV in 1969, but his style led to him being out of the NFL by 1971." During that time Kapp was leaveing is when the NFL was transforming into a defensive style of play and running meant more then passing. Now the NFL is all about passing (that is all the "experts" say) and when someone does it differently its not "the right way" of doing it. Tim Tebow is a passer and can get better. but i honestly think that they didn't need to change his way of throwing the ball (check his college records) they need to work on his mechanics. (which is doable and not a lost cause) btw is John Elway butt hurt about how Tim Tebow is winning games? If he can't even summon the guts to give Tim a vote of confidence for atleast next year then there is a problem. 466. ii posted: 12.13.2011 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think i heard that one guy had 18 channels for drivers on his radio. 18 is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to many to have. I'd limit it to 6 channels, 4 for teammates and 2 for others. Just limit the amount of channels you can use. (i highly doubt that will happen tho). Buy hey it would be a beneifit for a single car team, you have 6 channels to anybody you want." I wouldn't limit it. Basically, it's more rules in the already gigantic NASCAR rulebook. Plus, what if all 6 channels have crashed/eliminated/uncontending drivers? There may need to be some leeway, like possibly a max of 14 or 15, but 6 is definitely not enough. It's basically saying that 6 people are in the Chase. It doesn't make sense, and it would make the fan base that NASCAR gained this year leave immediately. Also, the races wouldn't be as exciting. Nowadays, with the 2-car draft (which I don't disagree with, it actually makes for some pretty good action), a lot more drivers would not find somebody with their channel, and would be either hung out to dry a lot of the race or crash because of the inability to communitcate with the partner. Overall, it's fine the way it is. "While replacing AJ with Kurt in the #43 sucks but makes a lot of sense, a team that can barely run 2 cars expanding to 3 is a terrible idea. Where's the sponsorship going to magically appear from to make that work, unless they're hoping to pick it up as the season goes on? At least getting the people to run it won't be a problem since there's all the former Roush #6 guys." AJ isn't a bad driver. I would rather have him in the car than, let's say, Steve Wallace (I said his name because I knew that it would start a uproar). Also, it's not gonna happen. I just can't picture Kurt in a non-Roush Ford. Maybe Sharpie or Rubbermaid would come back and sponsor. Or, Busch would take Ambrose's ride and take Stanley & DeWalt in a sponsor. But, Ambrose is better than AJ. Kurt needs to find a new ride, not at RPM. "And on the Tim Tebow thing. The question is, can he be a successful quarterback for a decade? It's obvious he's galvonized the Broncos, but can it last, or will he be another Joe Kapp? Kapp was a QB who's style was similar to Tebow. Kapp's unorthodox style of QBing helped lead the Vikings to Super Bowl IV in 1969, but his style led to him being out of the NFL by 1971." With all the hype that Tebow is getting (and his 7-1 record), he may be around a lot longer than Kapp. Tebow may not be a Pro Bowl or Super Bowl QB anytime soon, but he's got potential. Maybe it's the positive comments ESPN give him. But, he would make a better RB. He's got the most rushing yards by a QB (and 18th overall in just 8 games), so I would believe that him being a QB may not last. "Still doesn't change the fact the #7 and #21 were the best 2 car draft, you know why? Robby dropped back at one point can picked up Trevor. Those 2 went from 34-35 place on track to the lead in 5-7 laps." I'm just surprised that Robby didn't spin Trevor, just because a) Robby is a reckless driver and b) the Dodges are the least stable pushers with the new noses, although they are pretty powerful. 467. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.13.2011 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just the thought of Kurt Busch, the most classless NASCAR winner ever, driving the #43, which personifies class (at least publically) more than any other number, makes me wanna puke. Hopefully this won't happen. Since they are a Roush Racing satellite team, maybe, for once, Jack Roush's d-baggery can be used for the greater good. cjs, I think even the Packer's backups could beat the Lions in Green Bay in January. Remember them almost beating New England in Foxboro with their rookie backup QB last year? The fact is the Lions are an indoor team. If they are LUCKY, that game which will be in early January outside in Wisconsin, will have temperatures in the TWENTIES. With no snow or sleet. The cold will slow down their pass rush (their biggest asset on D) and their wide receiver's explosiveness (their biggest asset on offense). Plus you have to wonder if they will actually pull the starters. First off, there is the pride factor. By pulling them, they are telling Jim "I'm just like John Madden in the 70's if Madden were no good" Schwartz and Suh that they have reached their goal of being the baddest team in football (even though the Steelers and Ravens are way badder). That would give Detroit a mental edge for the following years. Secondly, there is the Lambeau Field factor. No team has a closer relationship with their fans than Green Bay. And the waiting list for tickets to a Lambeau game is like 300,000 people long (no joke). Could they risk doing that to their fans? Besides, Suh is basically handcuffed at this point. If he takes a cheap shot in the least he will get hammered. As for the SoCal sports scene, I wasn't aware the Angels had surpassed the Dodgers. I thought there was just a permanent heirarchy out there with the Dodgers being on top, kinda like Chicago being a Cubs town no matter what even though the White Sox have actually won a World Series in the past 103 years. Either way, he lost the chance to really be put on a pedestal by a city for the rest of his life. As much as STL loves their Cards, he would have been a god to them. "btw is John Elway butt hurt about how Tim Tebow is winning games? If he can't even summon the guts to give Tim a vote of confidence for atleast next year then there is a problem." Not surprised by this. The greatest players make the worst executives. Jerry West is the only athlete who was officially great at his sport to become a great (or even a good) executive building two seperate Lakers dynasties (the Magic/Kareem Showtime teams and the Shaq/Kobe teams). Hell, just look at the NBA. It's greatest point guard ever (Isiah), greatest center ever (Bill Russell), and greatest guard ever (as well as flat out greatest ever, MJ) all totally sucked as executives or coaches (or in MJ's case, continues to suck as we speak). Wayne Gretzky was an awful coach. Pete Rose got kicked out of baseball for good while managing the Reds, and one year later Sweet Lou led that same team to a World Series title, sweeping the heavily favored, heavily roided McGuire-Canseco A's team. This is true in racing also. Darrell killed his own career being an owner, and Bill nearly did the same. Bobby Allison didn't get a real fair shot since his team started up after his awful head injury, but his two stints as car owner before that (after leaving Junior in '73-'74 and after leaving Penske in '76-'77) weren't very good considering he had one of the 4 best drivers ever (himself). Same for Richard Petty. Once his driver (himself) faded behind the wheel in the early 80's he has done VERY little in the 30 years since. Pearson won a couple of Busch titles with his team and his sons, but were out to lunch in Cup. Cale's teams were non factors. Foyt didn't do much without the best open wheel driver ever (himself) behind the wheel of his cars. He had some good success with Brack (including another Indy 500 win) but that was during the watered down split years in IRL. Junior Johnson is about the only one who was both a great driver and great owner (of other drivers). It is hard to project how DEI would have done had Dale not passed. They key would have been June. June has championship caliber talent, and with Dale there riding his ass every second (and June never even considering rebuking him) they may have done well. But a few things concerned me. First off, he had no contingency plan in case of his passing which ultimately sunk the company. Seeing as how 3 drivers died in NASCAR in 2000, shouldn't he have had some plan in place? Everyone wants to blame Teresa for everything, but she had the entire weight of the company dumped on her along with its sensitive, demanding, unmotivated superstar (June). Shouldn't Dale take the blame for that? Secondly, the Mikey signing. I think that was pure ego on Dale's part. He wanted to say "Look, I can win with THIS guy!". And he did. I can only imagine what he was thinking in his final seconds of his life as he was about to be proclaimed the biggest genius in NASCAR history. But again, DEI's biggest asset was Big E himself. Could he have sustained it after retiring? Could June have handled having his Dad constantly riding him without breaking? How many more bums would Dale have signed after winning the 500 with Mikey? Hard to say. 468. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2011 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, maybe the reason Robby didn't spin Trevor was because Robby was IN FRONT of Trevor at Talladega. They did try it the other way, but weren't nearly as fast. Get the facts straight here. As for Dale, Sr. hiring Michael Waltrip for 2001. All Michael wanted to do is win a race, and Dale gave him his best shot. and let's not forget that Michael had many good runs, even before driving DEI equipment, including a second place at Pocono the same day that Bobby Allison was so badly injured, two third-place finishes at the Coca-Cola 600 [1990, '95], dominating the 1991 spring race at Darlington before a bad pit stop cost him the victory. And he was always a front runner at Daytona and Talladega, no matter what car he drove. As for your comments about great drivers not making good owners, you're mostly right about that, thoug there are inacurracies in the comments about Bobby Allison. Actually, Allison did drive for Penske in 1976 and finished fourth in the point standings in a Mercury, but was fired when he was injured in a non-Cup race. He ran old, non-competitve Matadors in 1977, so he really didn't have a fair shake. And as non-competitve as Richard Petty and Cale Yarborough seemed to be as car owners, John Andretti won for BOTH of them. And A.J. Foyt had moderate success with other drivers in IndyCar racing, even before the split. Remember that Robby Gordon contended several times in 1993 and Eddie Cheever darn near stole a win at Nazareth on fuel strategy. What has drowned Foyt is not just his reluctance to move ahead with the times, but the his shabby treatment of his personnel. I believe the only reason Yarborough, Bobby Allison, and David Pearson [briefly] became car owners was to stay involved in the sport they helped build. And DSFF, I think the Packers biggest strength will, before this season ends, be nullified by the home field and the elements in Green Bay, since their offense is primarily a passing offense. You say that the cold will slow down the Lions' pass rush, which is their biggest defensive asset, but I think the weather will also slow down the Packers' passing attack. and if the Lions don't beat them, I think the Giants will, if they meet in the playoffs. And the Angels may not have surpassed the Dodgers in the eyes of many fans, but just look at the results the last decade plus, and that will tell you the whole story right there. And you're right about the no. 43 personifying class. The only other car number in NASCAR that personifies class to that degree is the no. 21 of the Wood Brothers, which is why the 2011 Daytona 500 win by Trevor Bayne is the most popular in the race's history in my view, even surpassing Dale Earnhardt, Sr.'s 1998 win, though in the 2011 Daytona 500, there was actual racing, while Earnhardt led the last 60 laps of the 1998 race, the most consecutive laps led to finish the race since A.J. Foyt led the last 120 in 1972, because it was impossible to pass the leader with the plate/cold air box package that was used then. 469. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.13.2011 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Green Bay Packer Players and their head coach Mike McCarthy said that he will not pull players out to the media already. There is problems with teams pulling out players for going on a playoff run in the past when they don't play in the first round of the playoffs. The 1996 Broncos rested their players and they lost against the Jaguars. The Colts under Tony Dungy pulled his players out and his team became rusty. Other teams did that and it bit them also. Other teams have done the same thing and bit them in butt. I am not a bandwagon fan of the Packers because I have have a fan of the Packers since 1987 back when Forrest Gregg was the Head Coach and Randy Wright was the starting quarterback against the Raiders with them losing 20 - 0. The first NFL game I watch was Super Bowl 21 matter of fact. I supposed the Packers even at the time they traded away Brett Favre. I am more than willing to discuss about Brett and the trade if you want me to. 470. Spen posted: 12.13.2011 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: "including a second place at Pocono" If memory serves, that was a pit strategy fluke with a tenth-place car, not a great run. And the Darlington race accounts for all but six of the laps he led at that track in his entire career, making it sound rather fishy to me. And when you look at other facts, like his grand total of *two* career short track top fives (both of which are rather flukey, as his third at Martinsville was on pit strategy, and his fifth at Bristol came during a complete wreckfest, when even old Dave Marcis managed one final top ten.), the fact that he never finished on the lead lap at Rockingham, and never finishing better than ninth at Richmond, indicate to me that when it comes to 'driver's tracks' Mikey just couldn't hack it. Yeah, he can draft, and he ran okay at Charlotte (though not so much at other mile-and-a-halfs), but other than that, there's not much good to be said for his career. Oh yeah, he also was involved in more accidents than any other driver in 2005, his *twentieth* full season in Cup. Usually that award is reserved for rookies, or David Stremme. Regarding Bobby Allison as a car owner, I think he did pretty good at having competitive cars, but his driver choices weren't the best. Post-injury Mike Alexander, Hut Sticklin, Jeff Purvis, Jimmy Spencer, Chuck Bown, Tim Steele, Derrike Cope... not exactly a great looking group is it? And yet three of those drivers (Hut, Spencer and Cope) got their best-ever points finishes while driving for Bobby. So he must have been doing something right. If he'd hired an Ernie Irvan, or someone of that calliber, we'd have seen what his team was truly capable of. Cale, on the other hand, sucked as an owner. Other than having a good plate program in '97, his team had nothing going for it. With the exception of Rich Bickle, every driver he ever had looked better with a different team. 471. Spen posted: 12.14.2011 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Jimmy Hensley. Forgot about his stint with Cale. 472. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.14.2011 - 5:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen: Dick Trickle drove for Cale. Spot on, guys; you can't pass in the snow too well. It can be done, but not in a Fog/Snow Bowl. :) 473. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.14.2011 - 5:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen: Dick Trickle drove for Cale. Spot on, guys; you can't pass in the snow too well. It can be done, but not in a Fog/Snow Bowl. :) 474. Spen posted: 12.14.2011 - 6:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And he did considerably better with the Stavola Brothers the year prior, which pretty much is my point. 475. cjs3872 posted: 12.14.2011 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PackerFan4Ever, I hope you're right. I want to see another team go undefeated, if only to permanently shut up the members of the '72 Dolphins. After all, the Colts cheated history two years ago, so what may happen to them this year may be karma setting in. And Spen, I'm not saying that Michael Waltrip is an elite driver. What I am saying is that he's had more good runs than most people give him credit for. and ironically, the track at which he has the best average finish is, of all plasce, Sonoma, a road course. Sure a lot of it has to do with surviving the crashes, but the fact that he finished high at Sonoma means that he wasn't involved in any of the usual carnage. And all that needs to be said about that race at Bristol in 1994 is that, not only did Dave Marcis finish tenth, but Ken Schrader finished second and Lake Speed was third. And if Bobby Allison's team gave three drivers their best points finishes, then why did he have to close up in 1997 when sponsorship dried up during the height of NASCAR's boom period. Frankly, no top driver would ever have driven for Allison for the same reason that Allison couldn't stay anywhere for very long when he drove, and that is that Allison was a very hard man to get along with, professionally. 476. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.14.2011 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "a second place at Pocono the same day that Bobby Allison was so badly injured, two third-place finishes at the Coca-Cola 600 [1990, '95], dominating the 1991 spring race at Darlington before a bad pit stop cost him the victory. And he was always a front runner at Daytona and Talladega, no matter what car he drove." True, but considering that is the entire list of his career highlights for 15 seasons leading up to 2001, and as Spen mentioned, that Darlington run was quite fishy, that is really sad. I still say Dale hired him so he could make a statement about his ability as an owner. Which he did, but it was forgotten about in 5 seconds due to concern over his own well being after his crash, and ultimately his own passing (if that long, replays show Mikey's own brother clearly more concerned about Dale than Mikey's big breakthrough well before he crossed the finish line, if it weren't for Larry Mac focusing him back on the 15 DW would have never turned his attention from Turn 4). "He ran old, non-competitve Matadors in 1977, so he really didn't have a fair shake." You're right. I forgot he was with Penske for '76 too. One thing that should be mentioned, his time as an owner of those Matadors had a profound positive impact on one person's career: Davey Allison's. Bobby desperately needed help getting those cars together so he could just get to the races. Davey, whom Bobby was making take the hard road to racing success, offered a helping hand, Bobby accepted, and Davey learned precious information about the construction of race cars and what made them go fast. "And the Angels may not have surpassed the Dodgers in the eyes of many fans, but just look at the results the last decade plus, and that will tell you the whole story right there." That was actually my point. I know the Angels have been much more competitive in the last 15 years than the Dodgers. But the Dodgers are way more beloved. Pujols could have hade a city to call his own (STL) alongside Bob Gibson and Ozzie Smith. LA? They'll forget about him the minute he leaves. "And as non-competitve as Richard Petty and Cale Yarborough seemed to be as car owners, John Andretti won for BOTH of them." I always wondered what John Andretti could have done in top rate equipment. I think he was too nice and lacked the killer instinct to be a champion, but he could have put up some wins. Kinda like Jeff Burton. "which is why the 2011 Daytona 500 win by Trevor Bayne is the most popular in the race's history in my view, even surpassing Dale Earnhardt, Sr.'s 1998 win" I wouldn't go that far. It was very popular, and I am a huge Earnhardt homer, but every team lined up for Dale to shake his hand for finally breaking through in that race after so much bad luck not of his doing. It was awesome seeing such a great kid win the big race for the fabled pioneers of the Wood Brothers. I'll never forget it. But I wouldn't put it above Dale's win. But you are right about the racing. IMO, only the 2000 Daytona 500 was worse than '98. "Oh yeah, he also was involved in more accidents than any other driver in 2005, his *twentieth* full season in Cup. Usually that award is reserved for rookies, or David Stremme." HA! 477. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.14.2011 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Spen, I'm not saying that Michael Waltrip is an elite driver. What I am saying is that he's had more good runs than most people give him credit for. and ironically, the track at which he has the best average finish is, of all plasce, Sonoma, a road course. Sure a lot of it has to do with surviving the crashes, but the fact that he finished high at Sonoma means that he wasn't involved in any of the usual carnage." I'll give Mikey this, he is a better road racer then people game him credit for. Its debatable to weither Sonoma is harder to drive then The Glen is but it has to say something. 478. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.14.2011 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol. Bud Shootout eligibility announced. The top 25 in points from last year eligible. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Spare us the insults and just make a rule saying "The Home Depot car will always be eligible for these events". 479. Talon64 posted: 12.14.2011 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol. Bud Shootout eligibility announced. The top 25 in points from last year eligible. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Spare us the insults and just make a rule saying "The Home Depot car will always be eligible for these events"." They even got rid of letting ROTY's compete because the top 25 deal gets Logano in anyways. I'm pretty sure you, me and Tony Stewart's monkey are eligible for the Bud Shootout this year. 480. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.14.2011 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Non-points race, like it matters. Atleast there is 25 cars so it should be a decent show. (unless NASCARs changes "stopping" the 2 car draft blow up in their face and race is an utter bore) 481. cjs3872 posted: 12.14.2011 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I wouldn't say that the 2000 Daytona 500 was the only one worse than 1998. Actually, that whole string of Daytona 500s from 1995-2000 weren't very good, except for 1996. And let's not forget that some of those Daytona 500 races in the 1970s were just plain awful, the worst of which was the 1972 race that A.J. Foyt won. There were only five other cars capable of running with A.J., and they all suffered mechanical problems or crashed by the 200-mile mark, and the 1973 and 1975 races weren't much better. The 1973 race featured a dominant Buddy Baker, with Cale Yarborough simply running close enough to make it look interesting, though they ran each other so hard, that they effectively caused each other to break, paving the way for Petty's fourth Daytona 500 victory. And the 1975 race wasn't very good either, though part of that was the fact that leading that particular race seemed to be a curse, as Richard Petty [cracked head, I believe], Buddy Baker [broken timing chain], and then David Pearson [spin out with Cale Yarborough late] each led at least 46 laps, but none of those drivers won the race, as Pearson's spin allowed Benny Parsons to win the race. The Pearson incident late in that race is why I have said that the way that Trevor Bayne won the 2011 Daytona 500, with all the contenders having problems, with the last of them a self-inflicted restart violation by then-leader David Ragan, which allowed the Wood Brothers' car to take the lead, and eventually the race, was the racing gods' paying the Wood Brothers back for what happened in 1975, when David Pearson handed the race to Benny Parsons. But my point was that the 2000 race wasn't the only one worse than the 1998 race, because there were some god-awful races in the 1970s, not to mention the 1964 and '65 races that had a total of 13 lead changes, and the 1990 and '92 Daytona 500s were also dreadful. As for the greatest Daytona 500 of all-time? My vote goes to one that's hardly ever mentioned, and that's the 1984 race, because of the great competition among two generations of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, with all the competitors at their peak. If you ever want to watch a great race, watch the 1984 Daytona 500, if you can [it hasn't reached YouTube yet, something I intend to change one of these days], because it outshines even the 1976 and 1979 races, which were also great start-to-finish, but each of those races had some mid-level drivers near the front when it ended. The 1984 race certainly did not. The combined statistics for the six drivers involved in the finish are absloutely astounding, and there was action from start-to-finish involving those six drivers, as well as other legends of the sport. 482. cjs3872 posted: 12.14.2011 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And 1995 Subaru WRX STi, there should be more than 25 cars in the Bud Shootout. In addition to the the top 25 drivers in poits, other drivers eligible include Derrike Cope and John Andretti, though I suspect neither will be in the race, as well as Trevor Bayne, who hopefully, will have a competitve car in the race. But don't look for him to be in the Wood Brothers' car in that race, as they'll most likely skip it to concentrate on the Daytona 500, as they did when Bill Elliott drove their car. If Bayne ends up in the Shootout, it would likely be in the no. 6 car for Roush [asssuming he's still with Roush, which Roush said he'd be in some capacity], or possibly the no. 7 car, given how much help he gave Robby Gordon in the plate races this past year. I look for 26-28 cars to be in the Shootout in February. 483. 18fan posted: 12.14.2011 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I think my personal favorite Daytona 500, at least from ones that I have watched, is 1996. 1990 wasn't a great race, 1991 was affected by the dumb pit stop rules, 1992 had the big crash halfway, 1993 was a pretty decent race between Kyle Petty and Earnhardt before Petty made an unscheduled pit stop and got caught in a wreck, 1994 was decent, 1995 was not that exciting, and neither were 1997, 1998, and 2000. Even 1999 wasn't great, but the finish was exciting with Jeff Gordon's move on Rusty(whatever adjective you want to use for that move is understandable) and Earnhardt trying to find anyway past Gordon but not being able to. 1996 was exciting throughout and had big names at the front at the end(the top 5 was Dale Jarrett, Dale Earnhardt, Ken Schrader(he was solid his entire time at Hendrick, especially in the plate races), Mark Martin, and Jeff Burton). 484. Spen posted: 12.15.2011 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm highly biased towards '85 and '87, but I can't *objectively* call them the best. '69, '76, '79, '84, and '96 would probably be the top five. I might give '96 the nod by virtue of being to date, the last race I've seen in person, so it holds a rather special place. Cjs: I'll grant you that '72 and '73 weren't particularly great. '75 was fun from the craziness standpoint at least, if not so much racing-wise. 1990 was boring, but only because Earnhardt's car was so much better than anyone else's. It's not that no one could pass, they just couldn't pass the #3. '64 I believe was a similar story, though I can't say much about it with certainty. It was my first 500, but as I was three and a half years old at the time, I can't say I remember it. 485. Anonymous posted: 12.15.2011 - 1:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't understand what folks have against the 99 Daytona 500. I thought it was outstanding and if you go to the comments on it's page from this site there is overwhelming agreement. You could argue that Rusty dominated a bit too much in the middle but even that held it's own level of excitment because he would fall into the "storied driver who had never won the 500" just like Earnhardt the year before. And everything that happened from the big wreck on was edge of your seat excitment. 486. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.15.2011 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1984 was just a great year for superspeedway racing. As mentioned the Daytona 500 was excellent. The Winston 500 set the record for lead changes that stood for 25 years. And the Summer Dega was excellent. They used to play that one on SPEED all the time because it was Dale's first win with Richard, but it was an outstanding race. The Firecracker 400 had a thrilling finish. Cale and Richard were way ahead of everyone else, but that is what usually happened in that race in the daytime with scorching temps and the track surface slick as glass. Something about those cars that year just put on great shows at Daytona and Dega. The cars were still boxy, even the new Thunderbirds were still kinda square. Plus the motors weren't as fast as they would become a year later when Bill put up some huge qualifying numbers and was so fast other cars couldn't even draft off him. Basically 1984 had the perfect drafting package. 487. Mr X posted: 12.15.2011 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs has said this many times and I agree, take the roof spoiler and put it on the car permanently. Make these cars punch a big hole in the air, the great racing of the late 1970's and early 1980's wasn't just restricted to Daytona and Talladega, similar action was seen at any track with speeds over 150mph. The cars were very boxy, punching large hole in the air, meaning the effect of the draft was incredible, back it was a regular occurrance for a race at Pocono, Michigan, Ontario, Charlotte, Atlanta, Texas World, and other larger tracks to have 30 to 50 lead changes and unlike a certain few races from 2011(Las Vegas, Loudon, Kentucky, Charlotte in the fall, and a few others, passes and changes of position weren't just restricted to pit road. Michigan in 1981 had 65 lead changes, the tracks record. Cars in the draft were running faster lap times then cars with open racetrack, because of the draft. The field didn't spread out the way it does today. I wouldn't say that 1984 was the best drafting year simply because I dont think that it was really any better or worse then 1979-1983. 488. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.15.2011 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't mind seeing the wicker back on the cars but NASCAR has to do it in such a way to make not so "IROCish." AMS you can get away with it because the track is so old and wore out but at newly paved track it'd be a different story. 489. cjs3872 posted: 12.15.2011 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, did you watch the Daytona 500s from 1983-'85, because if you did, you'd see that the Fords had a HUGE aerodynamic advantage over the competition, but didn't have the horsepower in '83 and '84, so it didn't show. But when they got horsepower equal to the GM cars in 1985, their enormous aerodynamic advantage became obvious. That's why nobody could draft with the Fords, including other Fords in 1985. Drafting is about aerodynamics, not horespower. 18fan, how can you say that the 1996 Daytona 500 had big names in front at the end. Sure, you had Earnhardt, Jarrett, Martin, and Jeff Burton, who was to becom a star in future years. But you also had Schrader, Dallenbach, Musgrave, and Jeff Purvis mingling with the leaders at the end. Actually, many of the big names ran into trouble in that race. Jeff Gordon didn't even last 10 laps before crashing. Ernie Irvan didn't last much longer, and both Sterling Marlin, who was going for his third consecutive Daytona 500 win, and Terry Labonte, who had regained his past glory, had trouble at almost exactly the same time. And Anonymous [485], when I said that almost all the Daytona 500s from 1995-2004 featured pretty dull racing, 1999 was included. The only thing that saved that race was the battle of the three top drivers of the decade. Otherwise, the 1999 Daytona 500 would also have been utterly forgettable, much like the 1995, '97, ,98, which was forgettable other than the final result, 2000, '02, '03, and '04. And Mr X, I don't like the idea of putting the roof spolier back on at the plate tracks, and it isn't needed for the tracks under 1.5 miles in length, or the road courses. But I think the air needs to be dirtied for the 1.5-2.5 non-restrictor plate tracks, which would put drafting into play at those tracks once again. 490. Cooper posted: 12.15.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I'm guessing the one race from 1995-2004 that didn't feature the dull racing was the 2001 Daytona 500. That was an incredible race. Before the big wreck, almost every driver had a chance to win, and many of the drivers were able to lead at one point. Also add in the fact that it was 3 wide, 10 rows deep, for most of the race, it had me and most people on the edge of their seats. Unfortunately a 25 car wreck and the last lap accident of Dale Earnhardt tarnished the race forever. Still a classic though. 491. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.16.2011 - 3:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2001 Daytona 500 hands down produced the best version of that race since 1996. If it weren't for what happened on the last lap of that race, I would rank that 500 as the best (despite who won it) during my time of being a NASCAR fan. But it has to involve the whole package in order to be #1. I just wouldn't feel right ranking a race that a driver died in as "one of the best". I do have a pretty high opinion of the 2002 version as well, as it was also a great race compared to the 500's that would come in years afterwards. The icing on that cake was Ward Burton, somebody I had a great respect for, winning. I think overall, I would rank that one as the best 500 in my time of being a fan. 492. Anonymous posted: 12.16.2011 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "With Mike Ford's departure as the crew chief for the #11, that makes it 11 competitive teams that will enter the 2012 season with a new crew chief than they started 2011 with. The teams that changed crew chiefs are the 5,11,14,16,22,29,31,42,43,47,56. " With Jason Ratcliff finally being promoted to Cup, which is where he belongs, that makes it 12 full time Cup teams that will have start of 2012 with a different crew chief than in 2011. Out of these 12, a whopping 7 teams changed crew chiefs in the 3 weeks following Homestead (#11, 14, 20, 22, 29, 31, 42). I don't think there's ever been a season with this amount of crew chief musical chairs. 493. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2011 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why are they just now releasing Zippy? I bet Smoke wishes they woulld have done that mid season so he could have reunited with him. Addington is a great crew chief, but Smoke and Zippy won two Cups together. 494. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2011 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, when I listed the bad Daytona 500s from 1995-2004, one race I left out was the 2001 race, because of the great racing the took place all day in 2001. In fact, it was a great win for Michael Waltrip, which unfortuately was overshadowed by Dale Earnhardt's death, unlike the 2003 race that Waltrip won, which is forever tarnished by the fact that it only went 109 laps due to rain. For that reason, Waltrip's two Daytona 500 wins are a lot like Gordon Johncock's two Indianapolis 500 wins, since he never really got to celebrate either one of them. And the 2002 race was almost as bad as the 2000 race. The only difference is that the field didn't spread out in 2002 the way it did in 2000, so the cars stayed closer together in 2002. Actually, the only real passing that took place that day was on restarts. 495. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.16.2011 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "unlike the 2003 race that Waltrip won, which is forever tarnished by the fact that it only went 109 laps due to rain." It went past half way, which according to NASCAR rules, means the race is over. oh wow, here we go again. -____- Wins are wins no matter how you get them, weither your doing it "the Tim Tebow" way or winning a race with 25 laps and it suddenly rains. Only people view it differently. btw i don't like Mikey Waltrip or Sliced Bread but for crying out load WINS ARE WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 496. Evan posted: 12.16.2011 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Comments about the race please. * Last race for Greg Zippadelli as crew chief for the 20 car and for Sliced Bread Joey Logano. Which means that the team's final link to the JGR titles in 2002 and 2005 and the team's heart is now missing. Logano will have to adjust to a new CC and he already has not been productive after 3 seasons in NASCAR. He will be a lame duck this year, especially since Home Depot prolly does not enjoy having its ass kicked by its previous driver T.Stewart every week. * Last race for Mike Ford and Denny Hamlin the combo who just came close to winning the Cup a year ago, losing to Jimmie Johnson. Both had the longest cc-driver association since 2006, Hamlin's rookie season. This year was a different story as Hamlin could manage only a single win and engine issues. The whole JGR team looked flat all year. * Final race with Steve Addington with ANY of the dreaded Busch Brothers, PERIOD. He was awful with Bobby Labonte, then all of a sudden Kyle Busch turns him into the Busch whisperer as in the only guy who could get through to the Busch boys heads. He wins races with Kyle but crashed and burned in the Chase. Then he goes over to Kurt's team and takes more abuse, how much abuse can one man take? Steve Addington now will go to Stewart-Haas Racing as Tony Stewart's crew chief. * Last race for Jeff Gordon's flame paint job, he looks like he will go with a new look next year but that may be a special scheme similar to the one he drove at the 2002 Daytona 500. * Final race for GoDaddy.com on the 5 and for Hendrick Motorsports(my least fave NASCAR sponsor, IMO) GoDaddy will probably go to Danica Patrick next season as she makes her Cup debut. * Crown Royal's final run with Matt Kenseth, they had a poor record with Matt as they scored one win but Kenseth got the rest of the wins with other sponsors. * Possibly last race for James Finch and Landon Cassill as he may get a Cup ride elsewhere. 497. Cooper posted: 12.16.2011 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "495. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.16.11 - 5:29 pm" I don't agree. As a fan, every win feels different. I would imagine a rain win would feel very anti-climatic and "cheesy". Because there is no excitement of your driver actually crossing the finish line in 1st. Also, many drivers have exclaimed that while Rain or Restrictor Plate wins are credited as wins they feel the need to win a race "correctly" I.E. Beat people on the racetrack. Brad Keselowski commented on that when he won at Pocono. He felt, that up until that victory he didn't have a "legit" win. And many people criticized him for that. Also, comparing a "Tebow Win" to a rain victory is very incorrect. Tim Tebow wins games, by increasing his level of play in the clutch, while a rain win doesn't have any clutch moments in it at all. The closest thing to a "Tim Tebow type win" in NASCAR would basically be any Kevin Harvick victory. Who like Tim Tebow, does absolutely nothing in the 1st 75% of the race, but somehow raises his game at the end and steals it. 498. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2011 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subard WRX STi, Waltrip's rain-shortened win in the 2003 Daytona 500 is just as legitimate as his 2001 Daytona victory, which went the full distance. But the fact that it was cut short by rain, tarnishes the win somewhat, no matter what anyone else says, especially considering it went just nine laps past the halfway mark. The same is true regarding Johnny Rutherford's second Indianapolis 500 win in 1976, which went just two laps past the halfway mark. After winning the 1973 Indianapolis 500, which only went two-thirds distance, Gordon Johncock said in victory lane that he wanted it to go the full 500 miles, and Johncock was haunted for years about not winning a full 500-mile race until he won Indy again in 1982. A rain-shortened win is just as legitimate as any other win [unless you win it the way Logano won at Loudon or the way David Reutimann won the Coca-Cola 600 in 2009, which was as illegitimate a win as you can get, though it counts just the same in the record books]. It's just that winning a rain-shortened race tarnishes the win because it didn't go the full distance. Exceptions to this include Richard Petty's second Daytona 500 win in 1966, which was ended just two laps short of completion, or Mark Martin's first Southern 500 win in 1993, which was ended just 16 laps short of the full distance due to darkness. But most rain-shortened wins are slightly tainted by the fact that the race didn't go the full distance. But I was never questioning the legitimacy of Waltrip's 2003 Daytona 500 win, as he got it according to the rules. But the fact that it rained out the last 91 laps does taint it to some degree. 499. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.17.2011 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jason Ratcliff finally getting a chance at being a Sprint Cup crew chief is going to be interesting to follow next year. He's probably good enough at his job to duplicate what Dave Rogers has done, but unfortunately the driver he will be working with is nowhere near as good as Dave's driver. 500. Lordlowe posted: 12.17.2011 - 3:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last years ford 400 comment page had 700 comments on it do you think we will see 800 or 900 comments on this page before speedweeks 2012 501. Spen posted: 12.17.2011 - 6:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 700 for sure, but I don't see us breaking 800 unless the other shrub gets fired. 502. Smiff_99 posted: 12.17.2011 - 8:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) We still haven't found out where Busch is going or who's gonna end up in the 22......once that news drops, this place will be blowin' up. In a related note.....supposedly Hornish is now the leading candidate for the 22, according to Jayski the other day. All I'm gonna say is this.... "I beg you, Mr. Penske, don't do it. Let the guy have just one, ONE full season in NW, pleeease? I know you think he's ready (and he *IS* much-improved) but just WAIT....trust me on this." 503. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2011 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, we might get up to 1000 comments on this page, especially when I reveal my predictions for the 2012 season, which will happen around New Years. I'll actually make them at or slightly after Christmas, but of course, it'll take a few days to get them up on the comments page. Not all of them will come true, but a couple of years ago, I correctly predicted 11 of the 12 chasers. There will be oddball predictions, as well as predictions on the sport's biggest events. My predictions for the 2011 season were: -Dale Earnhardt, Jr. would not return to HMS after the 2011 season, which proved not to be true. -Jimmie Johnson wouyld be the only HMS driver to win for the second consecutive year, which also proved not to be true. In fact, he wasn't even HMS' winngest driver in 2011. -The 2011 Brickyard 400 would possibly be the last. But was I wrong about that. -There would be races with less than full fields in 2011. That miught have been true, if it weren't for the increase in start-and-parks late in the season. -2011 would be Dodge's last season. -David Ragan would replaced in the no. 6 car before the season ended. While that wasn't true, he won't return there next year. What I didn't realize was that the no. 6 might also not return in 2012, except possibly for select races, though the driver if it came back on a part-time basis is unknown. My predictions for the majors in 2011 were these: 53rd Daytona 500: 17-Matt Kenseth. I was right about the style of driver that would win that race, but was dead wrong about the driver, as was everyone else. All-Star Race XXVII: 18-Kyle Busch. Well, I was close on this one, but not correct. 52nd Coca-Cola 600: 14-Tony Stewart. Wrong again. 62nd Southern 50: 16-Greg Biffle. Again, this race had a winner nobody could ever have predicted. 18th Brickyard 400: 11-Denny Hamlin. Another first-time winner in a marquee event, though Jeff Gordon almost became the speedway's first-ever five-time winner. Here was my predicted Chase field for 2011: 5-Mark Martin, 11-Denny Hamlin, 14-Tony Stewart, 16-Greg Biffle, 17-Matt Kenseth, 18-Kyle Busch, 22-Kurt Busch, 29-Kevin Harvick, 33-Clint Bowyer, 39-Ryan Newman, 48-Jimmie Johnson, and 99-Carl Edwards. Of those 12, I got nine correct. I missed on 24-Jeff Gordon, as I thought it would be a rebuilding year for his team [and he was as low as 17th in points at mid-season], 88-Dale Earnhardt, Jr., who I thought would languish around 20th all season, and nobody could ever have seen 2-Brad Keselowski coming. As for the drivers they replaced that I predicted would make it, but didn't. Well, Martin had the worst season of his career, not surprisingly, due to his age, Bowyer was out to lunch during the summer months, and as for Biffle? Well, including ARCA, Roush employs seven drivers and Biffle's season in 2011 was so bad, that he was the only one of those seven drivers not to win in 2011. Heck, even one of Roush's developmental drivers [Trevor Bayne] even won the Daytona 500 [driving for the Wood Brothers], but Biffle never found victory lane in 2011. As for my 2012 predictions, everyone will have to wait and see on those. 504. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.18.2011 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I am stunned that the Chiefs won, but how they won didn't shock me. The Packers defense hasn't been great all year despite the fact they led the league in turnovers. I was very tempted to tell DaleSrFanForever on the post that the 1989 49ers would have gave this Packers defense fits because of their passing game. Their version of the West Coast Offense is difference than the Packers use currently because they usually threw short or medium range passes to their targets with them getting yards after the catch. I mentioned short to medium passes because the fact was Joe Montana didn't have a cannon for an arm unlike a 1980's John Elway as an example. The wind did play a part today, but at the time the Packers did drop passes including Jermichael Finley. Finley had been dropping passes all year long for the Packers despite having 42 catches before the game against the Chiefs. The Colts winning a game is a surprise to me. If I am the Colts, I better drop the remaining 2 games because of what happened to the 1988 Packers. The team with the 2nd worst record of the league is the Rams and the Vikings with a 2 and 12 record. If the Rams or the Vikings lose their final two games and the Colts win the final 2 games, Rams or Vikings would trade the pick for multiple draft Picks because the Rams or the Vikings already have their Quarterback of the future. The 1988 Packers had the worst record in the league going into week 15 with a 2 and 12 record and won their last 2 games. The Packers as a result didn't get Troy Aikman. The truth was the Packers wanted Aikman if they had the first pick of the 1989 draft. The Packers did mess up big time by drafting the incredible bust, but the Packers did get a franchise Quarterback in 1992 by trading for Brett Favre. The fact is though, not every team is that lucky for missing out on a franchise Quarterback or drafting a Quarterback that turned into a bust. 505. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.18.2011 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I already know that Leonard Pope lost control of the ball s and Packers head coach Mike McCarthy should have challenged the ruling on the field. I brought up before anyone mentions about Leonard Pope's catch. 506. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.18.2011 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the best thing that could have happened to Green Bay. It will refocus them and ease the additional burden of trying to be perfect. Now they will steamroll the playoffs. 507. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.18.2011 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Patriots are beating the Broncos, no suprise there. (however the haters will hate) Hey here is new "fix" to the stop the 2 car draft, smaller raditators. ok people have at it. (rad NASCAR.com btw, the article is on there. not that i'm lazy to post the link, i'm not sure it would work) 508. Cooper posted: 12.18.2011 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "506. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.18.11 - 6:10 pm" Couldn't be more wrong my friend. Losing a game is never good. If anything a loss to the lowly chiefs is a humbling defeat. Doubt is definitely crossing into the mind of the players. Their defense got exposed, and not even Aaron Rodgers can overcome a bad defense. Last year the Packers won because of timely plays by their defense and this year is just not the case. Neither the Packers or Patriots will win this year. It's either the Ravens or Steelers IMHO. 509. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.18.2011 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper is correct about the Packers defense. Even before today's game, I questioned the Packers going to the Super Bowl because of Drew Brees. I didn't meant the Giants because that team is so streaky that they may not go to the playoffs after they lost to the Redskins. If it is Packers against Saints in the Championship, the team that scores 50 points wins. The Packers have problems with their pass rush all season. All you need to is double team Clay Matthews because there really isn't another pass rushing threat on the Packers with Desmond Bishop still out. Desmond is the Packers 2nd best pass rusher on the team. That is something the Packers will address during the off season. The Packers also depend on interceptions a lot on Defense because they have problems stopping teams with very good offenses matter of fact. 510. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2011 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, you can forget about the Ravens. Did you see last night's debacle in San Diego? The Chargers scored 34 points on the Ravens and could have scored 45-50 if they wanted to. That game was important to the Ravens, because of the other high-powered teams they would have to face if they wanted to win the Super Bowl, such as New England, and the high-powered NFC teams, such as Green Bay, New Orleans, Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas, and the Giants (who also looked terrible yesterday), and the Ravens flunked badly. Pittsburgh is now the favorites in the AFC to reach their record ninth Super Bowl, even if they lose to the 49ers tonight, while Green Bay's loss and their injuries seem to have opened things up for other NFC teams. 511. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2011 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Atlanta might be a team to think about now. They started of badly, but have put together a really good late season run. I still say the title is Green Bay's to lose though. Even with a bad defense, their offense can score enough to win games. 512. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.19.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unfreaking believable!!! Philly is alive in the NFC East which is doing its best 2002 and 1991 Winston Cup season impressions, while the AFC North has perhaps three teams going into the playoffs if the Bengals win out and the Jets slip up again. Two of the more interesting stories under the radar is the Cincinnati Bengals and Atlanta Falcons' 2011 seasons. There is one sure beat prediction for the next two weeks...whoever gets homefield in the AFC (Pitt or New England) will at least get to the AFC Championship. Bank on it! 513. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2011 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88Fan, remember what happened in the NFC Worst, I mean the NFC West last year? Seattle won it with a 7-9 record, and there have numerous other times that divisions have been won with an 8-8 record. Also remember that Pittsburgh has the tie-breaker over New England due to earier win over the Patriots this season. Of course, Pittsburgh has to win thbeir division outright, because the Ravens beat them twice this season. However, if San Diego sneaks into the playoffs, they could upset the apple carton the way they've been playing. However, only three playoff spots remain unclaimed. The only playoff spot up for grabs in the NFC is the NFC East champion, as the other three divisions have all been clinched and Atlanta and Detroit are two games up with two to play, so they're both effectively in, as well. In the AFC, two divisions (South-Houston, East-New England) have been clinched, while both Baltimore and Pittsburgh are in, as well, so the only AFC playoff berths at stake are the AFC West title, which is completely up for grabs, and the AFC's second Wild Card spot, which any of five teams (New York Jets, Cincinnati, Tennessee, as well as Oakland or San Diego, assuming Denver wis the West) could claim. 514. 18fan posted: 12.19.2011 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The way the schedules line up, if Pittsburgh beats the 49ers tonight they will take the AFC North over Baltimore. This would be incredibly bad for the Ravens because they are a completely different team on the road than they are at home and have an incredibly inconsistent offense. 515. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.20.2011 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep cjs3872, and with today's NFL playoff format a team could sweep its division lose out, go 6-10 and make the playoffs which is utterly pathetic. Right now, San Diego's passing game is all smoke and mirrors to go along with the weakest RB Matthews (expert fumbler) with respect to maintaining ball control. 516. 18fan posted: 12.20.2011 - 2:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pittsburgh's terrible performance tonight might have just saved the Ravens. 517. Scott B posted: 12.20.2011 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official, the #43 team is losing Best Buy to Roush/Fenway for 2012. That will figure in to their negotiation with Kurt Busch, too. 518. Roush Racing's Bulldog posted: 12.20.2011 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hello everybody! I am a new user here ready to talk about racing. I love Roush. Always been a huge fan :). I'm elated that my team has Best Buy coming to it. I am optimistic about my boy's chances next year. Carl has a shot at he title as does Matt. I think Greg has another Chase in him. I like us going down to 3 teams. That will help us make all 3 cars better and develop better chemistry. Ragan was not a Cup driver. I would take Chad Little before David Ragan (yes I've been a Roush fan that long). I believe we have what it takes to win a title. I only have one reservation: We drop off after a big year. We had a big year last year. Can we keep the momentum up? I think so. Well I look forward to talking to everyone on here and may you all have a very Happy Holiday season :) 519. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.20.2011 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this just in, John elway has endorsed Tim Tebow................ In the immortal words of Heinz Ward "you lying fool." And i'm not buying that load bullocks. 520. Eric posted: 12.20.2011 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is a question of how much the relationship between Richard Petty Motorsports and Roush will be hurt from Best Buy leaving Richard Petty Motorsports to Roush. 521. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2011 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Eric, let's just say that Roush strikes again, as far as stealing sponsorship from a rival Ford team. This will undoudtedly affect Richard Petty's team in a negative way and once again proves that Roush will never allow another Ford team to be competitve with his. Remember that after the 2000 season, Roush stole the Citgo sponsorship from the Wood Brothers, the same team he's currently using as a farm team for his developmental drivers. He used Trevor Bayne there last year, and he's likely to use Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. there next year, with Bayne possibly running races in the #6 car part-time, especially those that his Daytona 500 win gets him in, like the Budweiser Shootout and the All-Star Race, if he's still with Roush at all. (I'm not entirely believing the story that Roush has guaranteed Bayne a ride for next year, even if sponsorship isn't available.) And his manufacturer orders deal at Talladega, which probably cost his driver, Carl Edwards, the championship in 2011, also cost the other Ford teams a shot at winning that race, because Roush knew that the Talladega race would be the only one that teams such as Front Row Motorsports and the Wood Brothers could be competitve at. And Roush Racing's Bulldog (#518), I concur with you, as this is supposed to be a RACING comments page. I pretty sure of this, there is likely to be a lot of comments when I post my predictions for the 2012 NASCAR season, which is likely to happen in the next two weeks. That, I'm pretty sure of. Maybe that will get the conversation back to where it'ssupposed to be, and that's racing. 522. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.20.2011 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Roush Racing's Bulldog (#518), I concur with you, as this is supposed to be a RACING comments page. I pretty sure of this, there is likely to be a lot of comments when I post my predictions for the 2012 NASCAR season, which is likely to happen in the next two weeks. That, I'm pretty sure of. Maybe that will get the conversation back to where it'ssupposed to be, and that's racing." well what else are we supposed to do, throw cheerios at eachother? lol since we "should" be getting back to talking about racing i'll start is off with something i said before, smaller radiators for the cars at Tona and Dega I'll say it again (screaming this time) SMALLER RADIATORS FOR PLATES RACES. ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT STOPPING THE 2 CAR DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^is that loud enough? 523. Roush Racing's Bulldog posted: 12.20.2011 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha ha I didn't mean anything by the talk about racing comment O_O. I just meant I'm excited to be on a site that talks about racing ha ha :). As for the Roush-RPM relationship well I love us having sattelite organizations like RPM. We're the top dogs at Ford. What we say goes. No offense to RPM or the Woods, but a Roush car can sell a product better then they can. And honestly, RPM will find another sponosr. If not, oh well. Look as a Roush fan, I have no sympathy for what we do to our competition. Is it unethical to steal sponsors? No. Because it's business. We're Roush. We're the big dogs of Ford. I sincerely believe that we have what we need: 3 great teams. I hope we can keep Stenhouse and Bayne as replacements for Biffle and Kenseth. Have no fear. Roush is gonna be fine and we are gonna continue to challenge Hendrick and Gibbs :) 524. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.20.2011 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, is it really that much of a surprise? Like cjs mentioned, Roush has a history of taking sponsors from under the rug of other Ford teams (CITGO, Citifinancial, Valvoline back from RPM and now Best Buy). My guess is that RPM stays partnered with Roush because they really have no better options at the moment. 525. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.21.2011 - 7:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) RPM doesn't have any other options at the present time, unless STP were to come back as a primary sponsor. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen. From the CITGO grab in 2000 to the Yates-Roush engine collaboration in 2004, Roush has wanted to become the top and frankly, the only dog in Ford's camp. This plan accelerated once the Wood Brothers and RYR went down competition wise. 526. Scott B posted: 12.21.2011 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only way I see for RPM to distance itself from R-F would be to switch manufacturers back to Dodge. That doesn't seem likely in the short term, settling the driver and sponsor issues have to take priority. Today's rumor has AJ going to the #22, and Ragan to the #43. I like the first part of that, Dinger would be a decent fit at Penske. Ragan in the #43 doesn't excite me, but to be realistic, both parties are running out of options. It would be ironic. "Hey, we took your sponsor, but you can have our cast-off driver." And, that scenario would still leave Kurt Busch in play as the offseason wild-card. Interesting... 527. Smiff_99 posted: 12.21.2011 - 10:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I sure hope Allmendinger gets the 22.....even though Ragan's got a win under his belt, if I were an owner, I'd still pick AJ over David. Still wish Reutimann would've gotten it, though. 528. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.21.2011 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Confirmed: Dinger to the #22. 529. Smiff_99 posted: 12.21.2011 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, good for him. Although I honestly thought 2011 was gonna be his breakout year, NOW I'm leaning on 2012. AJ's season-ending ranking has gotten better each year and now that he's landing in a fully-funded car (for none other than Roger FREAKIN' Penske) with a proven-to-be-awesome teammate in BK......things are looking up.... 530. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.21.2011 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roger has 2 talented drivers driving for him next year, i see no reason why either can't atleast win 1 race each. I feel bad for Richard and losing more respect for Jack Roush. 531. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.21.2011 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YESS!!! I can pull for the ENTIRE Penske team next year, since both of their drivers will be favorites of mine. It's about time AJ got an opportunity like this with a winning team, and I hope he gets his first win next year. Still can't help but feel bad for Reutimann after he was screwed over by Waltrip and Aaron's, though. I'd really rather see him replace AJ in the #43 than Ragan, but apparently that's not likely to happen. David Reutimann is this generation's Ward Burton. Although he's shown flashes of being able to run up front, no competitive team wants to take a chance on him. 532. Roush Racing's Bulldog posted: 12.21.2011 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dinger to the 22....... I like that. And yes Roush has always wanted to be the top dog at Ford. Let's face it: No one was ever going to beat Roush long term. We never would have lost a long term Ford war with Yates. Another thing that helped was Penske switching to Dodge in 2003. I think when we were the 3rd best team in Ford back in the 01 season we came together and decided to dominate Ford to make sure that we never had an 01-season fall again. I say it worked out for us. And as the top dogs of Ford, I see us dominating for decades to come. 533. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.21.2011 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Dinger will be a good fit. 534. Anonymous posted: 12.21.2011 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Do you think Fedfex is the right fit as sponsor for Denny Hamlin after a Fedfex employee was shown on youtube throwing a computer Monitor? Even before that video, I thought UPS was better since they ring the doorbell unlike Fedfex. 535. cjs3872 posted: 12.21.2011 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roush Racing's Bulldog, the problem with Jack Roush is that he can't handle competition from within the Ford ranks. That's why he schemed to get rid of Robert Yates the way he did, and why he withdrew his support for the Wood Brothers when they hired Michael McSwain as their crew chief, sending the most storied of all the Ford teams to the brink of oblivion, which may have started when he stole their long-time sponsor Citgo in 2001. (That's not to say Robert Yates wasn't guilty of this himself, because he was when he stole the Ford sponsorship from Bud Moore in 1996, which led to the oblivion of his team a year later, though Yates' motives weren't devious like Roush's have been.) Then Petty gives Roush the help he needs in the middle of the 2009 season, and this is what he gets back. He loses both a sponsor and a driver in 48 hours. Now there is a bit of irony in David Ragan joining Petty's team, and in the #43 car no less, considering his father Ken's possible role in King Richard's final win as a driver in the 1984 Firecracker 400. (When Petty and Cale Yarborough were racing to the caution flag with two laps to go, Petty actually got a draft from Ken Ragan's #77 car to help him outdrag Cale to the S/F line that day.) However, I'm still not sold on A.J. Allmendinger as a top-tier NASCAR driver. After all, Marcos Ambrose outperformed him most of the year, even on the oval tracks. Remember that Allmendinger's only top five finish came in that chaotic finish at the Coca-Cola 600, and he finished behind, among others, Ragan and Joey Logano. One thing's for sure, and that is that Allmendinger has ben presented with what, in my mind, is his final chance to be a successful NASCAR driver. Almendinger did finish higher in the points, than did Ambrose, but that's because he, for the most part, avoided the bad finishes that Ambrose often could not. And as for your comment on Roush being the top dogs at Ford. Well, that isn't really saying very much, considering the other Ford teams. Frankly, I think that Roush wants to be for Ford what Penske is for Dodge, and that is being the ONLY team capable of running up front. Being the top dog isn't good enough for him, he wants to be the only Ford team, no matter what he says. After all, Roush is bound and determined that his team will never have any serious competition among the Ford ranks, if he has any say about it. And yes, I still think he's very unhappy about what happened in the 2011 Daytona 500, being beat by another Ford team, even if it was one of his developmental drivers. 536. Anonymous posted: 12.21.2011 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roush Racing's Bulldog, You support Roush, but why do you act like is "cool" for what Jack Roush pulled at Talladega. Jack Roush not allowing Ford teams to draft with other brands actually prevented a Ford not name Roush winning the race and also might have caused Carl to lose the championship to Stewart as a result. 537. Lordlowe posted: 12.22.2011 - 3:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Someone should punch Roush in his good eye 538. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.22.2011 - 5:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 537. Lordlowe posted: 12.22.11 - 3:43 am Someone should punch Roush in his good eye Yeah, punching him in the other might bloody your hand. Here is a better question: who doesn't think Roush is scheming to murder Petty's team? I am surprised Roush hasn't tried to kill Cosworth, a Ford product, too. 539. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.22.2011 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I saw the video of that FedEx dude tossing the electronic package over the fence. That was YouTube gold. Maybe Denny should run a special "I'm sorry" paint scheme with a promise they won't do that again, no matter how hilarious it was. LordLowe, I laughed like hell at your post. Roush is only hurting himself by killing his satellite teams. Again, he needs to look to HMS to see how it is done. That is why Rick has 10 and 1/2 championships (5 and 1/2 of the last 6) and Roush just has 2. Hell, Rick's satellite team just pickpocketed a title from Roush. 540. Roush Racing's Bulldog posted: 12.22.2011 - 8:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post 535, I've been telling my buddies for years that we schemed to get rid of Yates and all the other Ford teams. I don't deny that and I personally support it. It's good business. In fact, it's one of the reasons why i like Jack Roush so much as an owner. he is a ruthless, I'm, going to get what i want, it's my-way-or-the-highway type of owner. I like that. he takes no prisoners. As a person who has that type of personality, I enjoy that. I love seeing Roush beat all the other teams. I love seeing my Roush boys win races. And I don't care if we run other teams out of business. If I was Jack Roush i would have sat my boys down in 2001 when all the cars were struggling and schemed to destroy Yates, Woods, etc. back then too. Trust me, I analyze the compititon of NASCAR a lot. I thought about this stuff when i was in church Sunday ironically. You're not saying anything I don't already know. Now answer me this: if he wants to be the only Ford team, what's wrong with that? 541. Scott B posted: 12.22.2011 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roush doesn't want to completely shut the other Ford teams down, he just wants to ensure that none of them are in a position the challenge him as Ford's #1 go-to guy. He's shut down his truck program and is scaling back in NNW, so the satellite teams that are dependent on him for support are his new development program. By the way, did anyone notice how the Allmendinger deal went down? By the speed with which Penske signed him, you know the offer was already on the table, but AJ wouldn't give up on Petty until he gave them every possible chance to retain Best Buy. And when that didn't happen, the King released him the same morning to sign a better deal with his blessings and kind words. Nice to see both parties conduct themselves like mature adults. 542. Anonymous posted: 12.22.2011 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sounds like Kurt Busch has a "handshake deal" with Phoenix racing to run the #51 next season. We'll see if that pans out, but if it does, that's quite a step down for a former Champion. But, if Busch is happy to just go racing without the stress and pressure to perform (make racing fun again, like he wants), that's a perfect place. And if he can get them to victory lane or snag a few top 5's, I'm sure he'll have a much better opportunity in 2013. 543. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.22.2011 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now answer me this: if he wants to be the only Ford team, what's wrong with that?" The more support you have the better you are (notes, eqiupment personal what else have you) but basically when you are the "Vince Mcmahon" of the NASCAR garage area then i'm pretty sure your only hurting yourself in process. Note: the only reason i compare Jack Roush to Vince McMahon is that Jack is trying to be the "one and only" Ford team in the Garage area, while Vince is trying to be the "one and only" Sports Entertainment (its not wrestling anymore, alteast TNA Impact Wrestling admits they are a wrestling company) company around. and Vince also killed off ECW and WCW, while Jack is trying to kill off (more or less) every Ford team in the garage area. "You support Roush, but why do you act like is "cool" for what Jack Roush pulled at Talladega. Jack Roush not allowing Ford teams to draft with other brands actually prevented a Ford not name Roush winning the race and also might have caused Carl to lose the championship to Stewart as a result." Jack Roush screwed alot of other drivers (including Chase drivers) that day and he also hurt himself. Which utterly funny as it turned out. 544. cjs3872 posted: 12.22.2011 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, the expedience in which Richard Petty released A.J. Allmendinger from his contract so that he could sign with Penske for 2012 is yet another reason why he's known as "King Richard". He's called the King not just for his on-track accomplishments, but for the royal treatment he genreally gives his employees, especially his drivers and crew chiefs. For instance, he allowed Bobby Hamilton, Sr. to leave his operation after 1997 when the Morgan-McClure ride, then one of the sport's top rides, opened up. But Hamilton was liked and respected so much there, that Petty did everything he could to let Hamilton leave a winner, and he won the third-to-last race of that year, at Rockingham. Then when the crew chief job for the #24 car opened up late in 1999, Robbie Loomis asked Petty if he could keave to take it, and Petty gave him his blessing on the move, and he left Hendrick late in 2005 to rejoin Petty's team. And let's not forget that Petty has so much respect for what John Andretti did at Petty's operation that he's fielded a car for him at the Indianapolis 500 the last three years, with help from existing IndyCar teams, especially Michael Andretti's, doing so in the clasic Petty paint scheme that is so legendary, that it was copied for Gordon Johncock, who took it to victory lane in what many regard as the greatest Indianapolis 500 ever run, in 1982. And the Allmendinger situation is another case of Petty being possibly the classiest champion the sport's ever known, a direct opposite to Jack Roush, who sometimes has treated his drivers more shabbily than any other car owner in modern history. Now the question is, who will be the next to pilot the legendary #43? Odds say David Ragan, which I think would be a good hire. Maybe not the best, but a good hire, since he might do better with a smaller team, and he would stay in the Roush-Ford umbrella. At least Kurt Busch won't be defacing the honor of the #43 car next year. As close as he came to winning the Daytona 500 in 2011, and given the history of Firecraker 400 winners winning the Daytona 500 the following year, could Ragan be the one to bring the iconic #43 back to victory lane in the Daytona 500 for the first time since 1981? I certainly wouldn't bet against it, as well as Ragan has always run there, and given how well Allmendinger ran in the #43 in the 2010 race. 545. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.22.2011 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Durt Busch to the #51 announced today. 546. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.22.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) KuBu's "wanting to race for fun again" theory will really be put to the test now. With the exception of the plate races, 20th will be a great day. Considering some of the tantrums he's thrown running SECOND, he better hope the lack of expectations makes things fun again. Geoff Bodine wants to run quite a few races in '12. Personally I am excited by this. Given his past success at Martinsville, surely he will run there. That will give me the chance to boo him some more. That NEVER gets old. 547. Anonymous posted: 12.22.2011 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Over or under Kurt Busch lasting 15 races at Phoenix Racing before getting released by James Finch. 548. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.22.2011 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whomever the crew chief for the Finch ride is, they must have a coat of armor for driver psychology working with Busch. Over/under: We will know after Bristol. 549. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.22.2011 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Under 550. ii posted: 12.22.2011 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous: Under, even if he runs better than Cassill did...then Kurt Busch will join IndyCar and fail miserably, and then he'll be homeless/Kyle's maid/racing at his Home Track/never seen again 551. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.23.2011 - 3:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt with Finch is going to be interesting. James has already said he's not going to put up with Kurt's act, which is so bad that even Roger Penske, one of the most patient and classiest owners in NASCAR fired him. 552. Smiff_99 posted: 12.23.2011 - 8:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was already looking forward to next season even before all these driver changes happened....but now? Good lord......this shit's gonna be interesting to watch. Allmendinger with Penske? Bowyer with Waltrip? Martin with Waltrip? Busch with....Phoenix!? I'm ready to start the season riiiight NOW.....it's gonna be entertaining, that's for sure. 553. 18fan posted: 12.23.2011 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like M&M's and JGR have requested that Kyle Busch not run any truck races this year and he might not be able to run very many Nationwide races either. There are rumors that Kurt will drive Kyle's Nationwide car. 554. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.23.2011 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Good for Coach and Mars Inc. for putting their foot down on Kyle Busch. Focus on your Cup effort and stop worrying about inflating your ego with running the N'wide and Truck series because you disappear come Chase time. 555. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.23.2011 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAzgTS7N--Q&feature=related ^ ladies and gents, the *FIRST* documented case of the 2 car draft, starts at 28:48, you can see Junior and BV all by themselves. Proves my point they would have been doing it then too but NASCAR didn't allow bump drafting in the corners. 556. cjs3872 posted: 12.23.2011 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even if Joe Gibbs and Mars, Inc. do prevent Kyle Busch from running the Truck and Nationwide Series, or severely limit the number of races he runs in those series, it won't matter. Some guys can handle the pressure of running for a championship, as well as the pressure of winning the sport's biggest events, and some can't. And Kyle Busch has proven that he can't handle the pressure. That's why he's never been a factor in the Chase, not the potential distractions of running those extra races. Why do you think guys like Dale Earnhardt, Richard Petty, Bill Elliott, Jeff Gordon, and Jimmie Johnson, and most of the sport's other legends always suceeded when biggest prizes were at stake, and guys like Mark Martin, Rusty Wallace, Carl Edwards, and Kyle Busch have always failed. It's because Earnhardt, Petty, Elliott, Gordon, and Johnson are, or were cool under fire and Martin, Wallace, Edwards, and Kyle Busch always seem to panic when they're under the gun. Just look at Trevor Bayne and Regan Smith, who won the Daytona and Southern 500s this past season. When they were under the gun, they were cool under fire, while David Ragan and Kasey Kahne (who's won the prestigous Coca-Cola 600 twice and the All-Star Race once) made the critical mistake when they were under pressure. Some guys just have the knack for coming through and others don't. It's just as simple as that, and Kyle Busch is someone that I don't think will EVER come through under pressure. Put Kyle under pressure abd he'll make a big mistake. Count on it. 557. Anonymous posted: 12.23.2011 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would not exactly put Bill Elliott cool under fire category for winning championships in the before chase era. Bill won a lot of Majors, but he was not not cool under pressure when it comes to Championships. The While he won the 1988 Championship, he gave away 2 cup championships in 1985 and 1992 despite having a big point lead with less than 10 races to go. Bill had a 206 point over Darrell Waltrip after the 1985 Southern 500 with 8 races to go after that race. After the fall Dover race, Bill had 154 point lead over Davey Allison, 239 point lead over Harry Gant, and 278 point lead over Alan Kulwicki with 6 more cup races to go after Fall Dover race. A driver choking away a huge points leads in less than 8 cup races to go in a cup season is bad, but doing twice really doesn't make it a fluke considering the driver had in the position of having a huge point lead with not a lot races to go prior. The first big choke could happen if a cup driver was not under pressure before for in a cup championship battle like What happened to Darrell Waltrip in 1979. Bill can races in the final 8 races in a season, but consistency is not always there if he had a points lead. 558. cjs3872 posted: 12.23.2011 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous, what you say about Elliott was true in 1985, but not in 1992. In 1992, his team, having not seriously contended for a top points position since 1986, was what folded under pressure, not Elliott. Elliott held up his end, but his team failed him, with two or three mechanical problems.(Even Tim Brewer, Elliott's crew chief in 1992, admitted that he pitted Eliott too early on the final stop of the season finale at Atlanta, which allowed Terry Labonte to lead enough laps to take the bonus points for leading the most laps away from Elliott.) The same was true with Elliott in the big events during his long drought in the second half of the 1990s. His best races during his time as an owner-driver came when the spotlight was greatest, in the sport's biggest events. He could very easily have won the Daytona 500 in 1996, '97, and 2000, had things gone his way, and the best run he had when he ran his own team from 1995-2000 in a non-restrictor plate race was the 1997 Southern 500 at Darlington, where he led more laps than anyone else, I believe, but again, his team failed him. The same was true regarding the 1995 Brickyard 400, where he led more laps than anyone else, but his team got him behind. And his only win in the eight years from 1993-2000 was a big one, the 1994 Southern 500, where he chased down his long-time nemesis, Dale Earnhardt. Frankly, I'd put Elliott in his prime ahead of any driver running today in a clutch situation except the top three active winners, Gordon (85 wins), Johnson (55 wins), and Stewart (44 wins, tied with Elliott on the all-time list). Heck, Elliott actually had a chance to win this year's (2011) Daytona 500, had the right drafting help came, as he was eighth on the final restart. 559. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.24.2011 - 9:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd also take Elliott in his prime over all but three active drivers Gordon, Johnson and Stewart. Even past his prime (1983-1992 which I would consider Elliott's prime ) when he drove for Evernham full time and had opportunities to win, he won more often than not. Elliott was clutch while tracking down Atwood at Homestead in '01, Rusty at the Brickyard and Sterling at Pocono late in those races in '02. Merry Christmas Racing Reference! 560. cjs3872 posted: 12.24.2011 - 9:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It now appears that Aric Almirola has emerged as the leading candidate to be A.J. Allmendinger's replacement in the #43 car, instead of David Ragan. Frankly, I think putting Almirola in that car would be a big mistake, as except for a top five in the 2010 season finale at Homestead, Almirola hasn't really done anything in the Cup starts he's had, except for leading over 50 laps in one race at Martinsville while driving the #8 car for DEI/Ginn several years ago. And Almirola hasn't done very well in the Nationwide Series, either, as he was not very competitive for most of the recently completed season, though he did run better near the end of the season. And let's not forget how he was pulled from a car in which he was leading the race in Milwaukee in 2007, I believe. Say what you want about David Ragan, but at least he's a proven commodity. Almirola hasn't proven anything, except for a good year in the Truck Series as Kyle Busch's teammate in the Truck Series in 2010, when that team utterly dominated the series. 561. 18fan posted: 12.24.2011 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Almirola drove for Billy Ballew for a full season is when Kyle was driving his own truck. Almirola is somewhat of a known commodity to RPM because he drove for them after they split with Kasey Kahne. 562. cjs3872 posted: 12.24.2011 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, 18fan. Sorry for that mistake. But I still think hiring Almirola is a big mistake for Richard Petty, even though they do know him there, because aside from a top five at Homestead in 2010, he's dome virtually nothing in his Cup starts, or in his Nationwide Series career. I still think Ragan is a better option, considering his ties to Ford and Roush, as well as his five years of Cup experience. 563. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 12.24.2011 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I'm gonna be sick. 2011 was a tough season for Aric, but I was really looking forward to his second full season at Jr Motorsports. He was poised for championship run. Now he's possibly leaving a top tier Nationwide team to go run 10th - 20th for an unstable organization in a currently unsponsored car. I'll support Aric no matter what, but I hope these rumors aren't true. 564. myothercarisanM535i posted: 12.24.2011 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Marcos Ambrose and RPM fan.....I'm not too keen on the idea of putting Almirola in the #43. I would have loved to have seen Kurt Busch get the ride, but we all knew that was never going to happen. As much as I don't like to say it, David Ragan really does look like the best option for the team. We shall see. Now, talking about plate racing: Can someone get me up to speed on the way restrictor plate racing has evolved over the years? To me, it seems like we need to find the perfect balance between safety and excitement. But where exactly is that balance? I've been going back and watching some of the plate racing from before I started watching NASCAR and it's made me think - what about the style of racing they had in the 1990's? I recently watched portions of races like the 1997 Daytona 500 and the 1999 Die Hard 500....and I thought they were awesome races to watch! From a safety point of view, it seems like it would be better than the 2001-2007 plate racing and they aren't bump drafting to speeds they do now, so it appears to be a much better option in that area. Competition wise? It doesn't have the sheer number of lead changes we have now, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I actually found those races to be quite exciting, especially in seeing a fast car fight it's way up through the pack - or seeing slower cars team up to hold out the faster one ('97 Daytona 500). The 2000 Daytona 500 was something of a farce the rule changes in reaction to that race bought about the massive packs of 2001-on. But what did they change from 1999 to 2000 - and why? I'm curious to hear the thoughts of fans who have been watching long enough to witness all these changes. Plate racing....I would really hate to be the person tasked with finding that elusive balance of competition and safety. 565. 18fan posted: 12.24.2011 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you want to see truly awesome plate racing, watch the first few laps of the 1993 Winston 500. If they tried to do that now there would be a big crash. 566. Spen posted: 12.24.2011 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Personally, I think this would be a great move for Aric. Let's face it, JR Motorsports is going to be the Danica Patrick show next year, and his team will be pretty much totally ignored. Chances are, he'd lose his ride by the end of the year, and be stuck on the sidelines forever. With RPM, he has one last chance to make a career for himself. Best to take the opportunity. On Petty's side, I like the risk. Yeah, Ragan's a good short-term fix, but we know what he's capable of. He can run consistently 15th with an orginazation that's having an amazing year, and if they're not amazing, he runs twenty-somthingth. Given the lack of competitive cars next year, he'd probably finish 21st in points. That's not bad for the team, but they know that's about where they'll finish each and every year. The only times they'll contend for a win are at the plate tracks, and Roush's political games should keep them well out of victory lane. Now, can Almirola do any better? In the short run, no. But if they're looking for a long-term investment, he might pay off. Remember when Gillette hired Allmendinger over ESad? While he went about it in a smarmy way, Allmendinger certainly ended up being a better choice from a competitive standpoint. Now I myself wouldn't take the chance on Aric. Good kid, but I think he's had his chances, and hasn't shown a whole heck of a lot. Granted, I said a similar thing in '88 when Mark Martin was announced as the driver for the new "Roush Performence Racing" team, so I've been wrong before. But still, if taking a risk on a long-term driver, I'd go for Stephen Leicht. Not only has he proven that he can win with less than top-notch equiptment, he'd be a lock for ROTY, giving the team a small monetary incentive to hire him. On plate racing, the program we had for most of the mid 90's (93-96, minus '95), was probably my favourite. Least favourite would be the excessive bump-drafting of 2005, followed by 2000's debacle. 567. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.24.2011 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2 car draft era is the best, is safer and more competeive, just take "jack roushing" it away and you'll have a perfect balence, next would the wicker bill package they had. (which the COT basically does itself and even then certain cars worked well together.) Having smaller raditators (NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT UP AGAIN) is the stupidest thing NASCAR can do to stop the 2 car draft. Spoilers and plates wouldn't stop it but make it harder to do. But even if they did that, would the "reason/results" scale be so screwed up that the racing would became the 2000's all over again. 2003 (at Talladega mostly) in which bump drafting got outta hand. I mean guys were drilling eachother so hard that even with the re-enforced bumpers car still came apart after 500 miles. 568. cjs3872 posted: 12.24.2011 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MyothercarisanM535i, the plate racing from 1995-2000 was terrible, with few exceptions (the 1996 Daytona 500 was one such exception). The reason was that, when the new Monte Carlo debuted in 1995, the teams, led by Jeff Gordon's #24 team, figured out that the air from the front bumper of the Monte Carlos actually pushed the leading car, which led to the excessive blocking that haunted plate racing from 1995-2009, causing many huge crashes. That, plus the cold air box, which was introduced in 1996-'97, which actually robbed the trailing car of speed, instead of the trailing car gaining speed, effectively caused the draft to work in reverse. The classic case of this occurred in the 2002 Daytona 500, when nearing pit stops, the leaders caught Shawna Robinson, who was running about 3-5 MPH slower, but the leaders could do nothing with her, because her car was actually robbing the trailing cars of their speed, effectively meaning they were stuck behind her until she ran out of fuel. Effectively, the leaders of the 2002 Daytona 500 were forced to run the slower pace that Shawna Robinson was running. That haunted plate racing for about 15 years. The excessive bump drafting started as a way to counter the blocking that was going on, as well as the fact that the trailing cars were stuck behind the lead car. There's a reason why in the Daytona 500s from 1995-2005 why drivers led large chunks of the race without being passed. It's because the trailing cars were stuck behind the leader, with no way of passing, because they could never close on the leader to try to make a pass. The lead car, even if was 5 MPH slower, could hold of the faster cars all day, and there was nothing the faster trailing cars could do about it. As for your question on the 2000 Daytona 500. Well, to counter the higher qualifying speeds (198+ at Talladega in 1999), as well as the fact that the drivers actually were wearing mouthpieces like boxers wear, because the cars were set so low on the ultra-bumpy Daytona and Talladega ovals for qualifying, NASCAR instuitued a madated shock and spring package for all four corners for the 2000 Daytona 500, though after that race, they rescinded the rule about mandating what the teams could run in the rear of the race. 569. Lordlowe posted: 12.24.2011 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS another such exception to the 1995-2000 Plate races would be the 1997 diehard 500 570. myothercarisanM535i posted: 12.25.2011 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you want to see truly awesome plate racing, watch the first few laps of the 1993 Winston 500." That was awesome. And the finish too! Had a look at the '97 Diehard 500 as well and that was a really good race. Anyway, back to the progression of plate racing. So, do we all agree that things were fairly good up until 1995, where the aerodynamics of the cars began to effect the racing? Then after that, speeds began to creep higher and higher, so NASCAR attempted to reign them back in for the 2000 Daytona 500 by regulating the suspension packages. When this created poor racing, they then modified the aero of the cars to create massive amounts of drag, resulting in the massive packs we saw from 2001 on. Playing through it in my mind, I think I would like to see the cars given more power and less drag, combined with less grip. I'd like to see handling become more important, but I'd also like to see faster cars have the ability to make passes without requiring too much help. If they were to bring in a less restrictive plate, reduce the drag and then run a harder tyre - or perhaps a different suspension package, how would that change the racing? I don't have much of a problem with single file breakaways, as long as the cars within that pack have the ability to make passes amongst themselves. So in the interest of safety and competition, where do we go from here? 571. 18fan posted: 12.25.2011 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would definitely say that we agree that plate racing was good until 1995, was not very good from 1995-2000 with some exceptions(1996 Daytona 500, 1997 DieHard 500). The feelings of the pack racing that began in 2001 as a result of the 2000 package being horrible is personal opinion, but having the huge packs led to the bump drafting getting out of control. The 2 car push really came out in 2008 at Talladega in the spring, but it did not last for more than about half a lap. But the phenomenon was only at Talladega as it was smooth and Daytona was rough, where you couldn't just mat the gas and push people all the way around the track. It was pretty much expected that when Daytona was repaved that the 2 car pod would become prevalent at Daytona because of the way it was almost perfected at Talladega and with both tracks now very smooth, it could take a while, without rule changes, to see this type of racing go away, but since tracks are repaved with more frequency now, by the time handling could matter at Daytona and Talladega they would most likely be repaved. 572. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.25.2011 - 8:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is right 18fan, well put analysis. In addition, let's not forget both Talladega and Daytona were repaved in 2006 and 2009-10. For handing to be a factor, Goodyear would have to bring a softer tire to the track and Nascar would have to mandate shock and spring combinations. Although, not to the specs prior to the debacle-filled 2000 Daytona 500. However, as a Jarrett fan, I loved that race and 2000 Speedweeks, if only DJ could have passed Bill Elliott in the 125's he would have had a clean sweep. Now that I think about it, the 2000 Daytona 500 was Jarrett's high water mark as a driver. 573. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.25.2011 - 9:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Merry Christmas! 574. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.25.2011 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so i was watching the ESPN SC year in review when they reivew the "major pro sports" champions from the last year, NASCAR wasn't included. In the words of Stone Cold Steve Austin: WHAT? So i guess ESPN doesn't concider NASCAR a major pro sport yet in reality the NHL isn't even in the same league in terms of TV ratings and to boot isn't even broadcast on ESPN? Oh i sense the H word here. .............................Brian France if you re-up with ESPN, concider it an act of stupidity on your part. 575. Eric posted: 12.25.2011 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, What do you really expect out of them because they really don't do any or very little stuff with any form of Auto racing outside of the races and NASCAR Now. I am saying that because I really don't a subject of NASCAR coming up on first and ten. The 2nd reason is not a lot of people that are Hosts of ESPN shows follow NASCAR and matter of fact look down at it without knowing thing about NASCAR a first place. It might be a great thing that ESPN doesn't a lot of Nascar Coverage out of Nascar Now and the races because of how bad their hosts are like Skip Bayless as an example. The other thing is whatever Stuff ESPN does with NASCAR isn't done well in different factor including ESPN chats with NASCAR writers that are columnists on ESPN website. The Chats with NASCAR on ESPN.com are bad because they don't do a ip address check in terms of blocking because there is Kurt and Kyle Busch fan nicknamed "Octo" running wild on the NASCAR chats like asking 17 out of 19 questions as an example for a chat by using names names and locations of people that he or she hacked into for personal information. People like David Newton actually admitted in the past for NASCAR chats that they don't know what questions were asked by "Octo". "Octo" matter of without chat rooms uses over 30 accounts that support the Busch brothers and acts like troll without the moderators of ESPN do something about even if the posts are marked. 576. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.25.2011 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ i've been on the ESPN chats and boards, they are horrible. Mostly people bitch and troll eachother, i stopped posting there 3 years ago. "What do you really expect out of them because they really don't do any or very little stuff with any form of Auto racing outside of the races and NASCAR Now. I am saying that because I really don't a subject of NASCAR coming up on first and ten. The 2nd reason is not a lot of people that are Hosts of ESPN shows follow NASCAR and matter of fact look down at it without knowing thing about NASCAR a first place. It might be a great thing that ESPN doesn't a lot of Nascar Coverage out of Nascar Now and the races because of how bad their hosts are like Skip Bayless as an example." The only things i agree with Skip Bayless on is Tim Tebow and LeBron James and the rest i could careless about what he says. Here is what ESPN had on in the 1990s auto racing wise: NHRA, IHRA, Trans Am, AMLS, F1, CART, NASCAR and maybe some others. Now they have nothing auto racing wise because they care NOT to run it against "the big 3" (NBA, MLB, and the No Fun League), hell they wouldn't even run the PBA against anything. (which i can understand, bowling it a fad sport, popularity goes up and goes down and the fact that the PBA is broke money wise doesn't help much) I'm still amazed as to how many people were happy to have ESPN come back, then 5 years later, people (including myself) don't want them around anymore. the TV contracts are going to be re-newed in 2013 and NASCAR will have to take a discount. We will now then who they will re-sign with. 577. Eric posted: 12.26.2011 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I followed Racing on ESPN since the 1990's and I am fully aware of what they covered in the 1990's matter of fact. I even watched F1 races on that channel in the 1990's and I matter of fact watched RPM 2Night to the time it went away after the last time it aired in November 2003. The ESPN I was referring to on post 575 is the current personnel or people that have been on the Network since 2001 or later hosting shows that don't just cover races or racing. Around 2001 or 2002 shows like Around the Horn or pardon the interruption starting to appear. Those type shows usually don't have any topic on racing or when they don't most of the hosts or people actually really don't anything about racing. When ESPN got NASCAR back originally in 2007, I really questioned it a first place because of what ESPN turned into from the last race they televised in 2000 to the time they got back to covering NASCAR. My thoughts haven't changed on that. While ESPN had racing outside NASCAR during the 2001 to 2006 time frame, racing really talked about a lot on ESPN shows at all and it didn't really change since. Starting 2001 ESPN was creating new shows on their networks catering to stick and ball sports and that is the type of people they hired for the most part and that is why I said outside the people that do races for different racing series for ESPN, no one else for the most doesn't anything about racing and look down at it. The thing is ESPN has gotten worse through years compare to what I grew up with back in the 1980's and as a teenager in the 90's. 578. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.26.2011 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The thing is ESPN has gotten worse through years compare to what I grew up with back in the 1980's and as a teenager in the 90's." I grew up with it in the 90's, when it was actually fun to watch, now i agree its crap. "When ESPN got NASCAR back originally in 2007, I really questioned it a first place because of what ESPN turned into from the last race they televised in 2000 to the time they got back to covering NASCAR." I didn't have an issue with ESPN coming back in 2007. But in the 5 years they have covered they have done anything but show NASCAR respect and atleast some amount "caring." I agree with you Eric, since 2001 they have catered to the Stick and Ball sports more (sports which i find greatly overrated and boring, especially the NFL, unless its Tim Tebow , Ray Lewis or Ben R. playing). The writing is on the wall with how ESPN feels about NASCAR, if Brian France re-sign it'll be the dumbest mistake he has made. (If i was in BFs place i'd tell ESPN to go shove it) The only time i remember ESPN ACTUALLY giving 2 crap is the 2007 Daytona 500 finish, i think they had it on their "stick and ball" shows for like a week straight. 579. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2011 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact is that nobody does racing broadcasts very well now. The prduction, while not as good as it was in the glory days of racing broadcasts, is much better than the commentating, which is, for the most part, terrible. If you want to watch a properly broadcasted race, look at many of the classic races from the 1970s, '80s and early 90s on YouTube, which includes the 1973 Indianapolis 500 that I uploaded. I'm probably going to upload the 1984 and 1985 Daytona 500s, which would be a combination of the ESPN Classic and SPEED versions, neither of which are on YouTube, sometime soon. After all, I would take Jim McKay, Keith Jackson, Ken Squier, Bill Flemming, and even Jim Lampley over any of the guys doing racing broadcasts today, and the same is true regarding expert commentary. I'd take Jackie Stewart, David Hobbs, Ned Jarrett, Sam Posey, Benny Parsons, and Bobby Unser over any of the expert commentators today. Then of course, you had guys like Chris Economaki, Larry Nuber, Jack Arute, Mike Joy, and Jerry Punch working the pits back then.(Punch is back in the pits again today after a few dreadful years in the booth, where he never belonged in the first place.) The commentators of yesteryear, even those whose expertise may have been in other sports, were much more passionate about racing back then than the commentators, who are supposed to know more about the sport do now, because they were passionate about EVERY sport they commentated on. Just watch a racing broadcast from the 1970s, '80s, and early 90s and compare it to a racing broadcast today, and you'll see that there's no comaprison. The broadcasts back then were far superior to what you see today, or will ever see in the future, and it's mostly due to the passion the commentators back then had about the sport, and the people invoved in it. 580. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2011 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But 1995 Subaru WRX STi, who would you replace ESPN with? It can't be FOX (who's coverage of the sport is dreadful and keeps getting worse every year, because the commentators are more interested in promoting themselves, rather than the sport), CBS, or NBC due to NFL commitments, though you could put those races on what will soon be the NBC Sports cable network, currently known as Versus. They can't go with Turner's cable networks due to their baseball commitments in October. Basicaly, even if they don't want to stay with ESPN/ABC, they may have no choice. If they want to be on free cable, it may be ESPN, and ESPN only. What they need to do is to put more races on ABC. When ESPN/ABC decided to not show the Brickyard 400, the undisputed crown jewel race of the ESPN/ABC portion of the season on ABC, you knew something was up, because that race had always been on network television since it started in 1994, and ABC has covered the Indianapolis 500 since 1965 and live since 1986. 581. Spen posted: 12.27.2011 - 5:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ratings were better on ESPN than they were on ABC, so I don't see that happening again any time soon. 582. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.27.2011 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But 1995 Subaru WRX STi, who would you replace ESPN with? It can't be FOX (who's coverage of the sport is dreadful and keeps getting worse every year, because the commentators are more interested in promoting themselves, rather than the sport), CBS, or NBC due to NFL commitments, though you could put those races on what will soon be the NBC Sports cable network, currently known as Versus. They can't go with Turner's cable networks due to their baseball commitments in October." FOX gave NASCAR the boost it neededin 2001, to me they should atleast cover until the 2nd Daytona race, then have TNT take over until October. I'd be on my hands and knees begging NBC to come back (the irony in this whole deal, it that NBC refused to put up more money for the 2007 TV deal, and got out raise by ESPN, NBC toke the NFL and we got stuck with ESPN.) I'd really wouldn't care if i had to move races to saturday or saturday night just to get coverage. FOX and ESPN don't promote it, TNT does. NASCAR can (since its the TV deal that demands NASCAR have 43 cars starting each race) demand that FOX and ESPN promote it in such a way to educate non-race fans about NASCAR. Not to the point of puking mind you just a gentle way to educate. If NASCAR was on NBC sports (Versues), it'd kill Indycar. Indycar has good coverage and not everyone has Versuses, if NASCAR shows up, Indycar might as well just go to PPV or ESPN if they are despreate. 583. ii posted: 12.27.2011 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just watch a racing broadcast from the 1970s, '80s, and early 90s and compare it to a racing broadcast today, and you'll see that there's no comaprison. The broadcasts back then were far superior to what you see today, or will ever see in the future, and it's mostly due to the passion the commentators back then had about the sport, and the people invoved in it." The commentators on SPEED that do the Trucks and ARCA I believe match those like Squire in the '70s. Main reason: All they talk about is racing. Almost all the time, you hear things on ESPN and even TNT that have nothing to do with NASCAR or racing at all. This is why SPEED should broadcast more Nationwide races and possibly some of the Cup races as well, whether alongside FOX, TNT, and ESPN or by itself. The Richmond race that SPEED broadcasted was the best by far this year - mainly because the commentators knew what they were doing. You could say the same for FOX as well, since SPEED and FOX are partnered and share commentators. "If NASCAR was on NBC sports (Versues), it'd kill Indycar. Indycar has good coverage and not everyone has Versuses, if NASCAR shows up, Indycar might as well just go to PPV or ESPN if they are despreate." I don't think that it will go back to NBC. The Versus coverage for Indycar is complete crap, so usually I only watch Indy on ABC. Either way, Dan Wheldon's death took a mighty blow to Indy's popularity as well, mainly because "the cars aren't safe enough," as one might say. We'll have to wait until next year to see if the new Indycar is really safe. A few years without casualties and F1 may use the same model, and the popularity will go up. "so i was watching the ESPN SC year in review when they reivew the "major pro sports" champions from the last year, NASCAR wasn't included." Wow. Even with Stewart's tiebreaker win for the championship in the tightest battle in the history of NASCAR and the best finish since Brian France has been in the sport? Come on. When was soccer or the NBA lockout more important than a down-to-the-wire NASCAR championship? "2011 was a tough season for Aric, but I was really looking forward to his second full season at Jr Motorsports. He was poised for championship run. Now he's possibly leaving a top tier Nationwide team to go run 10th - 20th for an unstable organization in a currently unsponsored car. I'll support Aric no matter what, but I hope these rumors aren't true." Agreed. It's kinda like Joey Logano: people are rushing these drivers into Cup cars. Aric needs at least another 2-3 seasons in Nationwide and would possibly be ready to run mediocrely in Cup. "FOX and ESPN don't promote it, TNT does. NASCAR can (since its the TV deal that demands NASCAR have 43 cars starting each race) demand that FOX and ESPN promote it in such a way to educate non-race fans about NASCAR. Not to the point of puking mind you just a gentle way to educate." Yeah, when the TV contracts have to be renewed. Either way, FOX does it better than TNT, and ESPN doesn't promote it at all, due to the fact that NHRA is more important than NASCAR, even though it is overall worse, less competitive, and less popular. Plus, what do you think that the in-car cameras are for? On a side note, Front Row Motorsports is losing all of their drivers next year. They could possibly get renewed according to JaySki, but some drivers could get desperate and end up there. Almirola would fit better here: he would be a waste in a car that thrived years ago. 584. ii posted: 12.27.2011 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd really wouldn't care if i had to move races to saturday or saturday night just to get coverage." That would actually be better, since in the most important part of the season NASCAR wouldn't lose a lot of their fans to football. 585. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2011 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, have you watched a FOX NASCAR broadcast in recent years? They spend a great amount of time doing self-promotion, especially the analysts. And let's not forget the debacle in the All-Star Race this past May when the FOX commentators, who were doing that event on SPEED, didn't even know what all the rules were. And of course, let's not forget the cheerleading for some of the drivers that is done by the commentators on FOX. Say what you want about ESPN and Turner, I have not heard one bit of rooting for anyone on any of those broadcasts, unlike FOX, who's broadcasters seem to have rooting interests, which is a violation of the first rule of broadcasting, which is that a broadcaster is a reporter, and reporter can NEVER have rooting interests, since they're supposed to be impartial. Why do you think at the beginning and the end of a sporting event he did that Jim MacKay always used the word "reporting"? Because that's exactly what he was doing. He was reporting from that sporting event. And how can you EVER compare a broadcast that has Michael Waltrip and/or Ken Schrader as an analyst to one from back in the 70s or 80s that had the likes of Jim McKay, Keith Jackson, Ken Squier, Chris Economaki, Jackie Stewart, David Hobbs, or Ned Jarrett on it That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Jim Lampley, Sam Posey, and Bobby Unser, who didn't have a lot of NASCAR knowledge, were even better than most of the guys calling the races today the vast majority of the time. I actually think that NASCAR needs a TV partner that is willing to showcase the history of the sport and show the classic races, and right now, they have NONE. ESPN Classic once did that with many different sports, but no longer does that on such a regular basis. They used to show old Masters highlights (to their credit, they have ben showing old U.S. and British Open highlights), NFL from the past, including Super Bowls, but now NFL Network handles that. They used to show old baseball games, and although they still do, they don't show nearly as many as they once did, and they used to show classic NASCAR races, including Daytona 500s from as far back as 1976. Now, they do next-to-no NFL programming, and only show the classic Masters highlights, Daytona 500 races (not all the ones they've shown over the years), and other sporting events when that particular event comes around. SPEED has become just as bad, if not worse. They no longer show old races, and haven't for years. They last showed the old Daytona 500s from 1979-2000 back in 2003 or 2004, and what they pass as "NASCAR Classics" aren't classic at all. They also no longer show the old "Car and Track" series that Bud Lindemann hosted (I don't believe they show the edited ones that Dale Earnhardt, Jr. hosted which were a farce, anyway, with the pop-ups and all. They don't show those, either.), nor do they show the old races from Indy and Darlington they once aired on a regular basis. The networks that carry NASCAR simply don't care about it's past the way they once did. 586. 18fan posted: 12.27.2011 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Any broadcast that has Michael Waltrip is automatically horrible. 587. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2011 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, as bad as Michael Waltrip may be, and he doesn't deserve to be on a broadcast, his older brother Darrell is even worse. And now they're both going to be on the FOX broadcast team, as Michael's going to be on the pre-race show. Need I say more about the FOX broadcast team? What FOX should do is to put Phil Parsons on their team when he's available and have him replace Darrell Waltrip, and have either Kyle Petty or Wally Dallenbach, Jr. join Parsons on the broadcast team, and move Larry McReynolds down to the pit area, where he belongs, possibly joining Jeff Hammond as an expert where the mechanics of the car is concerned. After all, McReynolds is not bad on the TNT broadcasts, where he is with the car, analyzing the mechincal parts of the car, and other such things, which is his area of expertise, not analyzing a race from the booth. That's the ex-driver's area of expertise. 588. 18fan posted: 12.27.2011 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, what do you think about Andy Petree in the booth? About the Waltrip brothers on the FOX pre-race, let's just say that is a horrible decision and I am glad that I usually don't watch the pre-race show, especially I don't watch the FOX pre-race show. This might be a personal problem I have, but I don't like Chris Myers at all and I don't think he has a place on a NASCAR broadcast. One thing that ESPN has done right is that they at least have their studio host(either Nicole Briscoe or Allen Bestwick) be someone who is knowledgeable about NASCAR, as opposed to Chris Myers who knows enough just to not sound dumb, although to me that is cancelled out by having Brad Daugherty in the studio. 589. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.28.2011 - 7:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love Andy and Dale. The only way ESPN could be better would be to do 1 of 4 things: 1) Bring back Ned; 2) bring back Buddy Baker; 3) bring Benny Parsons back from the dead and we can all hear him say "Jamie McMary" one more time; 4) fire Brad Daugherty, making an idiot who was a basketball player a NASCAR analyst because he is a fan is dumb. 590. cjs3872 posted: 12.28.2011 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, I'm not a fan of having Petree in the booth, either, though he's marketly better than McReynolds (he can't possibly be much worse). Remember that ESPN once had Gary Nelson in the broadcast booth, and that didn't work out, either. Dick Bergrren, who was in the booth for TNN in the late 90s was better, but he didn't really belong in the booth as an analyst, either. The fact is that the crew chiefs know very little about what's happening on the track inside the cars, where the drivers are concerned. Why else did CBS and ABC never hire one before FOX hired McReynolds in 2001? 591. Bob posted: 12.28.2011 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cant wait till next year! 592. Scott B posted: 12.28.2011 - 11:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) About the Almirola to the #43 reports... if that turns out to be correct, a couple more pieces would seem to fall right into place. David Ragan would likely be offered the #71 TRG ride, which is a Roush-Yates supplied Ford. That would just be keeping his Cup career on life support, but it is what it is. Likewise, the Jr Motorsports NNW ride opening up would be a logical place for Landon Cassill to gravitate to. It'd keep him in the Hendrick extended family, and be a place where he could run up some decent stats while he waits out a competitive Cup ride. At his young age, it would be an OK career move. That would only leave David Reutimann's situation to resolve... 593. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.28.2011 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Someone needs to get Ralph Sheheen in the booth. He is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better then Adam Alexander (who went from being decent to just out right annoying. Ask Kyle Petty and Wally Dallenbach). 594. 12345Dude posted: 12.28.2011 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really happy to see AJ in the 22. When you think of a driver who has showed a lot of potential but never gotten a shot at good equipment, you think of AJ. There are two heavy rumors going on that look like they might come true. People are saying that Kurt Busch might ride full time for Kyle Busch in the nationwide series, and only get points in the nationwide series. I was really upset. I was happy to see Carl Edwards and Brad Keselowski running less races. But Kurt was just going to fill in those races. Not only that but I feel bad for James Finch. He's been in nascar forever. He can't be competive in the nationwide series because of the "cup teams" dominating, and the little guys can't really compete in the nationwide series anymore. Plus sponcership is so hard to find. He finally got a good driver. And I'm afraid Kurt is just going to focus on the nationwide series. His brother really cares about that team, and it's going to be without Kyle races. I feel bad for James. Hopefully I'm wrong. Anyway, there is some good news (of course this is IF these rumors are ture) "No Trucks or Nationwide races for Kyle Busch in 2012? #18-Kyle Busch is unlikely to compete in the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series in 2012, at the request of Joe Gibbs Racing and their Sprint Cup Series sponsor, M&Ms. Kyle Busch Motorsports General Manager Rick Ren confirmed today that there is "a high probability" that Busch will withdraw from the 2012 Truck Series. "That topic is being discussed almost constantly around here right now," he said, adding, "It is not necessarily something that Kyle chose. If he doesn't run Trucks this year, it will be at the request (of JGR). Not by demand, but by request. Things change on an hour-by-hour basis, but if I had to answer you right now, I'd say he will probably not race in the Truck Series next year. There is a possibility of him running no Nationwide races under certain circumstances, as well. There are a lot of things being discussed right now, which makes it pretty tough on me. I've been trying to figure out whether Kyle's going to be available to run our Trucks and Nationwide cars, then determine whether the individual sponsors will stay around without him behind the wheel. I believe Kyle will drive a KBM Nationwide Series Toyota in a certain number of races next year," said Ren. "I can't swear to it, but that's what it look like today." FINALLY! 595. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.28.2011 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ if that is true then thank goodness. 596. 12345Dude posted: 12.28.2011 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "^ if that is true then thank goodness." Yeah for all we know Kyle might still run 15-20 races, and we might have Kurt Busch run a full nationwide season. That would lead to 2 races being won by nationwide regulars. I hope that doesn't happen. Can only hope. 597. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 12.28.2011 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone been following this story about Kasey Kahne and his comments about breastfeeding in public? If you're curious, here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/28/kasey-kahne-nascar-breastfeeding_n_1172760.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003 and here's a link that has photographic evidence of his tweets, since he quickly deleted them: http://www.mediaite.com/online/nascar-driver-kasey-kahne-slams-mothers-who-breastfeed-in-public/ All I can say is....wow. I feel betrayed. This was a man who I respected and liked to root for, but his comments there, particularly when he called that woman a "dumb bitch" make me sick to my stomach. That was flat out sexist. To me, and maybe a bunch of men won't see this the same way, that's worse than some of the things we rip apart drivers for on this forum, like losing their temper on the race track. That stuff is just racing, stakes are high and tempers flare. But to just be sitting at a computer, and throw out a sexist insult like that after saying something that most women would consider borderline offensive about breastfeeding? This is just almost unbelievable to me. And yet very few major NASCAR news sites are even touching the story at all. How much do you want to bet if a Busch had made these comments, it would be the top story on NASCAR.com? Those guys may be douche bags but I don't recall one ever calling a woman a dumb bitch. But I guess for all the progress women are making in the racing world, it's still very much a boys club. Heck, I bet most of the male-dominated media are probably sitting around thinking, "hey, I agree with Kahne, that's gross!". Kasey, you lost a fan. I had big hopes about next year, but now I'm sitting here without a driver. I can't support a man who calls a woman a dumb bitch because she tries to defend the basic human function (that was perfectly legal) of feeding a hungry child. It's nature, get over it. 598. Anonymous posted: 12.28.2011 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the heck, Kasey Kahne is the newest driver to incite a controversy? This doesn't make any sense, his last name isn't even Busch! http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/12/28/nascars-kasey-kahne-goes-on-twitter-rant-after-seeing-woman-breastfeeding/ You'd think a guy that's such a hit with the ladies wouldn't be so misogynist, but hey I guess that's his opinion. 599. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.28.2011 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Kurt won't run a full N-Wide season, and if Kyle wants to stay in a good ride, he'll run, at most, 5-10 races. If Edwards still races in the lower league (hope he doesn't, hope he doesn't, hope he doesn't), then he'll be kicked out for dominating. :) "I love Andy and Dale." Do you have mental problems? They won't shut up about how good Junior does every week. Thanks to them, as well as all the play-by-play, ESPN has the worst commentary in NASCAR history. In fact, the only time anyone on ESPN talks about NASCAR is the occasional SportsCenter recap, NASCAR Now, and the acutal races. However, I do agree with the changes (bringing Ned, Buddy, and Benny, and firing Brad). "Someone needs to get Ralph Sheheen in the booth. He is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better then Adam Alexander (who went from being decent to just out right annoying. Ask Kyle Petty and Wally Dallenbach)." I agree. AA has been terrible for TNT, and with KP and one of the worst, most inexperienced, and most annoying color commentators in the American sports world...... "Any broadcast that has Michael Waltrip is automatically horrible." That's why I just read the NASCAR Illustrated for Truck recaps, especially with Harvick, Kyle, Bowyer, or Newman racing. But...How can Darrell be worse than Mikey? I'm not saying the elder is great, but Mikey just ruins the fun. "Aric needs at least another 2-3 seasons in Nationwide and would possibly be ready to run mediocrely in Cup." Not that long, maybe a year of full-time Nationwide with JR, and then another couple of years while dabbing in certain tracks (maybe a Bristol or Richmond race, Michigan or Fontana, Atlanta, Kansas, Pocono, a road course, Tallagega, Daytona), and then he'll be fine. If Theresa Earnhardt didn't drop the #8 car... "Ii, have you watched a FOX NASCAR broadcast in recent years? They spend a great amount of time doing self-promotion, especially the analysts. And let's not forget the debacle in the All-Star Race this past May when the FOX commentators, who were doing that event on SPEED, didn't even know what all the rules were. And of course, let's not forget the cheerleading for some of the drivers that is done by the commentators on FOX. Say what you want about ESPN and Turner, I have not heard one bit of rooting for anyone on any of those broadcasts, unlike FOX, who's broadcasters seem to have rooting interests, which is a violation of the first rule of broadcasting, which is that a broadcaster is a reporter, and reporter can NEVER have rooting interests, since they're supposed to be impartial." Wow. It's very true that FOX promotes baseball in their April and May races, but once the football season starts, ESPN won't shut up about it. This is the only good thing about TNT: they rarely promote anything, and what they do promote is their crappy shows that they despirately need people to watch. "Really happy to see AJ in the 22. When you think of a driver who has showed a lot of potential but never gotten a shot at good equipment, you think of AJ." I think that he might make the Chase this year, if not this year sometime before 2016, if he stays in good equipment throughout the years. During the end of his Red Bull tenure, he was starting to rack up top-20s and top-10s, and running better than Brian Vickers in the same equipment is a bonus. A small bonus, but a good one. Then he went to RPM, and he started consistently finishing in the top-20 and top-15, and seemed to contend for every Dover race but having mechanical problems. Now, in great equipment with experienced crew, he'll do great. It might take a while to adjust, but once he does, we'll see a new championship contender. "Likewise, the Jr Motorsports NNW ride opening up would be a logical place for Landon Cassill to gravitate to." We really don't want another Joey Logano rushed up into a great Cup ride and producing mediocre-at-best results. Like Almirola, he needs to stay in a decent ride in Nationwide until he can prove himself, and then he can contend in the Cup series. I feel like Arik and Landon will have similar paths and go to the bigs at about the same time (maybe Landon will move up a little later due to his youth), and they'll have similar results. "I actually think that NASCAR needs a TV partner that is willing to showcase the history of the sport and show the classic races, and right now, they have NONE." Have you heard of SPEED? On occasions, SPEED puts classic races on. Sometimes they're from decades past, sometimes, during a race weekend, they show a previous year's race on that track. Therefore, SPEED, being the only real motorsports channel, showcases history and classic races (on occasions, but at least they do). "The commentators on SPEED that do the Trucks and ARCA I believe match those like Squire in the '70s. Main reason: All they talk about is racing. Almost all the time, you hear things on ESPN and even TNT that have nothing to do with NASCAR or racing at all. This is why SPEED should broadcast more Nationwide races and possibly some of the Cup races as well, whether alongside FOX, TNT, and ESPN or by itself. The Richmond race that SPEED broadcasted was the best by far this year - mainly because the commentators knew what they were doing. You could say the same for FOX as well, since SPEED and FOX are partnered and share commentators." Good job. Someone acutally has some common sense. "But 1995 Subaru WRX STi, who would you replace ESPN with? It can't be FOX (who's coverage of the sport is dreadful and keeps getting worse every year, because the commentators are more interested in promoting themselves, rather than the sport), CBS, or NBC due to NFL commitments, though you could put those races on what will soon be the NBC Sports cable network, currently known as Versus. They can't go with Turner's cable networks due to their baseball commitments in October." I can't believe that no one's thought of this, but... just put some NASCAR races on SPEED!! IndyCar doesn't interfere, F1 is usually in early morning, and a lot of other racing series' are minor and can be taped and put on a future date. It should be like this: *FOX for first 6 races *ESPN/ABC until before first Pocono race (no basketball on Saturdays or Sundays) *TNT for 3 weeks, not 6 *ESPN/ABC until second Daytona race *FOX until the Glen *SPEED for last 14 or so races (with Rick and Phil--NO MIKEY!!) *N-Wide and Truck--SPEED for all *Non-Points Races--SPEED (Rick + Phil) Therefore, FOX fans can cheer, what ESPN fans there are can cheer, TNT has an interesting non-movie program on, and SPEED gets the role that it was intended for: a lot of live Cup races. As for the rosters, I hope that Ragan gets a Front Row ride. He doesn't deserve to be in RFR (just one win and a few top-5s and not making Chase in 4 years of RFR machinery). I think that Kurt will do good with Finch. They get Hendrick engines and chassis, so that means a great ride. It was really screwed around with in previous years, but it will be a one-car similarity to Stewart-Haas. 600. cjs3872 posted: 12.28.2011 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Awesomegordonfan, SPEED hasn't broadcast what I call a classic NASCAR race in about eight years, and no Idon't count races from one to five years ago as classic races. Nor have they shown old races on film, such as those in the "Car and Track" series for about five years, and hasn't even aired Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s series, which showed badly edited versions of those races in about two or three years, except for rain delays. Now, I'm going to respond to other things you mentioned in your most recent post. First, as bad as Michael Waltrip is in the booth, Darrell is, at times, just as bad, if not worse that Michael is. And I don't think Kyle Petty is that bad right now, but that could change over time. Now, I'm not sure why you and a lot of other posters are so high on A.J. Allmendinger. In fact, if you had watched many of the same races as I have, you'd know that Allmendinger did not perform nearly as well in 2011 as he did in 2010. What he did was finish better, but he was outperformed, even on the ovals, by Marcos Ambrose. Frankly, I think Penske hired Almendinger because he didn't have anyone else better to hire. There might also be a back door deal with Penske and the new IndyCar team of Michael Shank, in which Allmendinger is a partner. Now we do agree that Aric Almirola would be a bad hire for Richard Petty's team, but again, other than the Davids, Ragan and Reutimann, what other choice does Petty have? Especially considering that Roush stole his sponsor, much like he stole the Wood Brothers' sponsor Citgo a decade ago. And your idea to put NASCAR races on SPEED is a terrible one, because there would be large chunks of the viewing audience that would have no access to those races if they don't have SPEED, which a significant number of cable companies don't, which is the same thing if races were to be put on Versus, which will soon become the NBC Sports cable network, or CBS' cable sports network, since not that many people have access to those channels. Plus, I'm not sure I'd give races to a network whose commentators don't even know what all the rules are, which is exactly what SPEED's broadcast team was guilty of in the All-Star Race this past May. 601. 18fan posted: 12.28.2011 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FOX's broadcast is only going to get worse now that they are adding that self-promoting clown named Michael Waltrip to their pre-race show. The two Waltrips are the worst announcers in NASCAR that actually are in the booth(I think the worst people that are on NASCAR broadcasts are Chris Myers and Brad Daugherty). 602. Mr X posted: 12.29.2011 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) All SPEED channel does is give a litte taste of what you can expect this weekend. They air the previous version of the upcoming race, airing the 2010 Brickyard 400 the Thursday before the 2011 Brickyard 400 for example. Thats a sampler, not classic. While I personally wouldn't mind a few races a year on SPEED, (because I have it) but lots of people dont. However I dont think that there are many more TV networks that could use NASCAR Racing more. The degression of the SPEED channel over the last half dozen years has been awful, it used to be a channel that I knew I couldn't live without, with Classic NASCAR, Car and Track with Bud Lindemann, my personal favourite TV host of all time, American Muscle Car, Motorweek, Dream Car Garage, I still enjoy Wind Tunnel and enjoy Dave Despain's work. SPEED also had numerous other shows and the Barrett-Jackson auctions get harder to watch each year, with the constant commercials, the bidders constantly being poked and prauded by Steve Davis and Craig Jackson to bid more, especially on charity cars, and the bullshit they give about all cars being treated equal on the block is incredibly annoying. Recently Speed channel has become a playground for the NASCAR media to talk about what IMO is everything that's wrong with current day NASCAR, combined with some absolutely terrible filler shows, such as Dumbest stuff on wheels, pumped, pimp my ride, my ride rules, stuntbusters, etc. Pass Time is the only good filler show IMO. Other then some documentaries like the HOF Biographies, Dave Despain on Assignment shows, The Day, very little is worth watching some actual classic races could change that, and it still amazes me that Speed channel doesn't have any major how to programming similar to the POWERBLOCK!! on Spike TV on weekend mornings. 603. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 12.29.2011 - 5:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see that the Kasey Kahne breastfeeding story has finally gotten some more media attention, particularly ESPN. Though I suggest avoiding the comment sections under these articles unless you want to see an unending stream of misogyny. Usually you can tell whether a guy is single or a father depending on their views on this subject. I'd go further as to say you can also tell the difference between a man and a child by their views on this subject. Too bad for Kahne though, I bet someday when he has a child, he'll understand how ignorant his outlook was. And really it isn't even so much his views on breastfeeding that lost me as a fan, it was his incredibly insensitive response to a mother who defended it. I think you're the dumb b**** Kasey, for not understanding that calling a woman a b**** in anger has just a slightly different connotation than using it on one of your buddies just for fun. So.... I'm looking for a new driver to throw my support behind. Never thought this would happen, but it's not every day your favorite driver betrays you. Maybe Jeff Gordon, he's really grown on me these past few years. I read that article about him going over to Rwanda during the offseason for charitable work, and I don't care who you are, that's impressive. I can't see many other drivers having the guts to even make the trip, and this isn't even the first time Gordon has done it. I've tried to like Brad Keselowski because I generally like his attitude about racing and he's got a great future ahead of him, but he's said some pretty borderline sexist stuff about Danica Patrick that I don't really care for. Jimmie Johnson...... yawn. Seriously, I couldn't care less about the guy, he bores me. The Busch's? I don't hate them as much as a lot of people, well maybe Kurt, but I see a vulnerable side to Kyle that makes me think he could one day become endearing enough to root for. Tony Stewart is an enigma, one minute he's this charismatic, funny, hero of the "regular guy", the next he's a boorish a-hole. I can't stand Harvick, and I can't stand his wife, that's all I'll say about them. Carl Edwards is a possibility, he definitely made a good impression during this last Chase. He wouldn't be a favorite, obviously, but when he wins I won't mind. Anyway, enough of me thinking out loud. It's been a weird day. Has anyone else ever rooted for a driver, as in your favorite, only to have them do something that ticks you off enough to lose your support? 604. Smiff_99 posted: 12.29.2011 - 8:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was a Kurt Busch fan from 2000 (breakout year in truck series) until the 'Jimmy Spencer Incident' of 2003. After I heard the audio from Kurt's radio....I was like "Nope, I'm done. This guy's a f***ing TOOL." A lesser example, for me, is Edwards. I latched onto him during his rookie year in trucks in 2003, and was a DIE-HARD fan from then on.....until his two 'attempted murders' on BK in 2010. Now, against my better judgement, I retain my 'fan card', but my enthusiasm for him has gone waaaay down. *sigh*.....still a fan, though. Same goes for Kyle......to me, he's like a brother in that, although my support of him is undying, I'm constantly finding myself sitting in front of the TV going "KYLE....WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?!" 605. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2011 - 9:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, among the classic programming that used to be on SPEED, or it's predecessor SpeedVision, you're forgetting about, are programs like the classic Southern 500 races from Darlington from 1962-'74, '76-'78, Indy 500: The Classics, which showcased the Indy 500 films put out by the speedway from 1960-'89, except for 1967. In fact, a sizeable portion of the 1973 episode of Indy 50: The Classics can currently be seen on my YouTube channel on my look back at the 1973 Indianapolis 500, and when Indy 500 time came up, SpeedVision used to air a 4-hour program called "Faces of Victory", which was hosted by Brock Yates and focused on the era of change at Indy, showing many of the races from 1957-'71. They were also planning to show many old races featuring many categories of racing from the mid 50s through the early 60s, but when FOX bought SpeedVision late in 2001, that plan was scrapped. 606. 12345Dude posted: 12.29.2011 - 11:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I was a Kurt Busch fan from 2000 (breakout year in truck series) until the 'Jimmy Spencer Incident' of 2003. After I heard the audio from Kurt's radio....I was like "Nope, I'm done. This guy's a f***ing TOOL." A lesser example, for me, is Edwards. I latched onto him during his rookie year in trucks in 2003, and was a DIE-HARD fan from then on.....until his two 'attempted murders' on BK in 2010. Now, against my better judgement, I retain my 'fan card', but my enthusiasm for him has gone waaaay down. *sigh*.....still a fan, though. Same goes for Kyle......to me, he's like a brother in that, although my support of him is undying, I'm constantly finding myself sitting in front of the TV going "KYLE....WTF ARE YOU DOING?!?!" Yeah same with me and Kurt Busch and Carl Edwards. But I can't stand Carl anymore at all. The first time at Atlanta he could of just spun brad out at Bristol, but I understood. All of us have made really, really stupid decision when we were mad. And we acted like idiots. I think thats what happen with Carl Edwards at Atlanta, so I gave him a pass. Plus he never really did anything bad before that. But after I saw the highlights of the Gateway race I lost any respect for him. I think Kyle Petty is great in the booth. Larry is so much better with his role on Speed, I wish he wasn't with Darrell and Mike. I think Michael is average in the booth. I don't seem to mind him. But Darrell and Mike? That might be a little too much. Fox really needs to get some new talkers. 607. Anonymous posted: 12.29.2011 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Formerly-KahnesGal4, What you are saying about that you can tell if a guy is single or not based on opinion on breastfeeding in public isn't always correct. I know men who are married and are dads, but they are against breastfeeding public. Matter of fact I also know women that are parents that are against breastfeeding in public also despite being happily married including one still married over 35 years. What I am saying is you shouldn't assume if a person is married or not based their view on breastfeeding. What you said makes you almost as bad as Kasey Kahne in terms of his statement on twitter. 608. Anonymous posted: 12.29.2011 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Formerly-KahnesGal4, While Kasey shouldn't have called a woman on twitter a name for breastfeeding at grocery store, you probably don't realize it is possible that Kasey witnessed a breast feeding flash mob. There actually was a breastfeeding flash mob yesterday and that is very inappropriate behavior by the women who did the breastfeeding flash mob style just for the heck of it. That meant that kids that were breastfeed during the flash mob might have been hungry a first place. 609. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2011 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm now going to make my predictions for the 2012 NASCAR season. Here they are: 1. There will be no first-time winners in 2012. (Aside from A.J. Allmendinger, who I don't think is really that good, there isn't any other driver in a prominent car without a win in their career.) 2. At least one of Jack Roush's drivers may not return in 2013, including his Nationwide drivers. There may even be more than one current Roush driver that may not return in 2013. 3. More than one, and as many as four current Cup teams may expand in 2013. 4. Jimmie Johnson will return to form as Hendrick Motorsports' top performer in 2012, as he will once again be their winningest driver in 2012. (For the first time since he joined the Cup series, Johnson wasn't at least tied for the team lead in wins, as Jeff Gordon scored three wins to Johnson's two in 2011.) 5. The 2012 Daytona 500 may likely go off without it's defending champion. 6. The All-Star Race will have the Daytona 500 winner in it this year. The All-Star Race felt a little empty last year without the winner of the biggest race on the circuit in it. 7. As seen below, the veterans will strike back in the crown jewel events. 8. Here are my predictions for the crown jewel events and other big races in 2012: -The 54th Daytona 500: 29-Kevin Harvick (his 2nd win) -The 63rd Southern 500: 11-Denny Hamlin (his 2nd win) -All-Star Race XXVIII: 18-Kyle Busch (Joe Gibbs finaly gets his first win in the All-Star Race after five second place finishes) -The 53rd Coca-Cola 600: 5-Kasey Kahne (his 3rd win as the 600 gets yet another 3-time winner) -The 19th Brickyard 400: 14-Tony Stewart (like his idol A.J. Foyt, he gets his third Indy win in car #14) 9. My 12 Chase drivers for 2012: 2-Brad Keselowski 5-Kasey Kahne 11-Denny Hamlin 14-Tony Stewart 16-Greg Biffle 17-Matt Kenseth 18-Kyle Busch 24-Jeff Gordon 29-Kevin Harvick 39-Ryan Newman 48-Jimmie Johnson 99-Carl Edwards I welcome the response of any poster to these predictions. 610. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2011 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My take on BoobGate (as it shall forever be known): I'm willing to give Kasey a pass due to this being his first offense after quite a while on the circuit. I feel, if he were truly just a dick, it would have come out before now. As for his comments, I am less offended than flabberghasted. Breastfeeding is how all mammals (including humans) feed their young and have done ever since their have been mammals until humans developed baby formula. But still, it is not only good for the baby, it is good for the mother as it releases hormones that help them as their bodies adjust post partum. As a paramedic, if we deliver a baby in the field and the mother has significant post partum hemorrhage, we encourage them to breastfeed their baby as it releases crucial hormones which can stop that (sorry if that is tmi). I can understand him thinking "wow, I didn't expect to see that today". But he went on and on. But again, he has been a model citizen until now. He didn't mail in this season despite being in a one year lame duck deal, and won a race for Red Bull. I'll give him a pass for now. 611. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2011 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kahne'sGal, don't give up on Kasey for one boorish incident. You are not gonna agree with everything anybody does. I am a huge Brad K fan and I disagree with his take on things from time to time. Hell, I don't agree with everything Earnhardt did. The Richmond '86 incdent is inexcusable and I blame him most for DEI's demise. He needed a better plan in place for the company in case of his passing. Seeing as how his day job had claimed the lives of 3 drivers in the previous year, he should have had a concrete plan in place. As for Brad's comments towards Danica, I'd argue they were not misogynist at all. He said he feared that the way she gained fame and noteriety would open Pandora's Box and force all future female driver to be evaluated on how they look in a bikini first and foremost. 612. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 12.29.2011 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What you are saying about that you can tell if a guy is single or not based on opinion on breastfeeding in public isn't always correct. I know men who are married and are dads, but they are against breastfeeding public. Matter of fact I also know women that are parents that are against breastfeeding in public also despite being happily married including one still married over 35 years. What I am saying is you shouldn't assume if a person is married or not based their view on breastfeeding. What you said makes you almost as bad as Kasey Kahne in terms of his statement on twitter." What is their argument against it? No seriously, what is the argument against being able to breastfeed in public? I can only think of two things, and neither one is a very strong argument. First off, it makes you uncomfortable. Well, to a rational person with an understanding of how the human body works, that seems ridiculous. How does a mother feeding a child make you uncomfortable? You almost have to dig deeper into that line of thinking, which probably means it's the human body that makes you uncomfortable. Again....why? If the sight of a breast makes you uncomfortable, you're either a repressed religious Quaker and you need to take a time machine back to the 1800s, or you're a child who needs to grow up (and it doesn't matter how old you actually are). But even if it does make you uncomfortable, that's your own hang-up. You don't have to force the rest of the world to come to a halt because of your own insecurities. And the second reason you could possibly be against breast feeding, is that you think it's disgusting. I don't feel like I even need to discuss this one, because it's so ridiculous. Sadly, people do think this way. And I argue that the ones who do, are not married, probably don't have girlfriends, and certainly don't have any children. "While Kasey shouldn't have called a woman on twitter a name for breastfeeding at grocery store, you probably don't realize it is possible that Kasey witnessed a breast feeding flash mob. " Oh come on, a breast feeding flash mob? Really? I think that's something Kahne would have mentioned. I think we know the real reason that Kahne felt so disgusted, the woman was probably unattractive. "Saggy" is most likely an adjective you could use to describe her. Let's face it, someone who has a hang up about public breast feeding probably isn't going to make a big stink about it if it's an attractive woman. He certainly wouldn't take to Twitter about losing his appetite. Otherwise, I think we'd have to start questioning other things about Kasey, like whether or not he's attracted to women. No, I'm guessing Kasey just saw some dumpy looking lady feeding her kid and got grossed out. It's immature, but like I said that's not even the most important issue to me. It was his callous disregard for a female fan who disagreed with him, while using a sexist insult. If you hadn't noticed, I'm a feminist, and this sort of thing is important to me, no matter how ridiculous it might appear to someone else. Breastfeeding in public is a controversial issue, that at it's core is about a woman's basic human rights. And Kasey Kahne showed himself to be rather shallow and disrespectful towards a lot of women. He lost a lot of fans these last two days, I guarantee you that. 613. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2011 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My undetailed predictions: Cha$e lineup: same as 2011 with Biff substituted for KuBu. Champ: Jeff Gordon. In the cha$e he puts on a vintage "I am still Jeff Gordon" performance. The highlight being the Fall Martinsville race when, in honor of his 20th anniversary with DuPont, he runs the throwback rainbow scheme and leads 400 of the 500 laps. Daytona 500: since they are based in Denver, Furniture Row runs a Broncos paint scheme. They spend the first 150 laps running horribly, spinning out, and hitting everything before running good in the 4th quarter of the race and squeaking out the win. Just kidding. Smoke finally breaks through. This begins a rare early season tear for Tony as Addington does what he alwayss dos when first paired with a good driver. Also, Mark causes the Big One. Southern 500: Gordon. With Carl definitely finishing 2nd, an early season highlight as he suffers a classic 2nd place hangover. All Star Race: Brad K punts KyBu blatently for the win. This is followed by DW to offer a 10 grand reward for Brad's head from the booth. Coke 600: Kenseth gets Roush's first win of the year. Gordon dominates but blows an engine. Brickyard 400: Gordon. In a rout. Hamlin finishes 2nd after a very difficult 1st half of the season for JGR as they adjust to the TRD engines. That is also the weekend RPM announces they are shutting down due to lack of funds in '13. Sad exit for The King. Final order: Gordon (6 wins), JJ (7 wins), Kenseth (2 wins), Brad K (4 wins), Biff (1 win), Smoke (3 wins), Harvick (0 wins), Hamlin (2 wins, wild card), KyBu (2 wins, wild card), Carl (1 win, classic hangover year), June (0 wins), Newman (1 win). 614. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2011 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shit, forgot to add Kahne in the cha$e. Scratch Biff (1 win still) and put the propriator of BoobGate in. He gets 3 wins. The other 4 wins: Ambrose (Sears Point), Montoya ( the Glen), Dinger (Spring Dover), Surprise Driver X (one of the Dega races). 615. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2011 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if you're right about of the crown jewels, Jeff Gordon would be adding still more chapters of auto racing history to his almost incomprehensible resume. A win in the Southern 500 would put him in the Richard Petty category of having won one of the crown jewels seven times, as a win in the Southern 500 would make him a seven-time winner of that event (much like Petty is a seven-time winner of the Daytona 500). And a Brickyard win would make him the first to win at Indy's legendary oval five times, something he almost did this past year. And if you're right, that would make 22 crown jewel wins, extending the virtually unbreakable record of 20 he already has. Now, I don't make preseason predictions on who the champion will be, due to the Chase and its unpredictability. However, if I did make such a prediction, it would be Jimmie Johnson, who will not only win his sixth Chase title, but also score Hendrick's 200th victory, which will come with Hendrick Motorpsorts' next victory. 616. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.29.2011 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for Brad's comments towards Danica, I'd argue they were not misogynist at all. He said he feared that the way she gained fame and noteriety would open Pandora's Box and force all future female driver to be evaluated on how they look in a bikini first and foremost." I'm going to agree too, Danica is a decent driver and doesn't destory equipment. She'll fail in Cup but be (i think) a good N'wide driver, i wouldn't be suprise if she won a race. But sadly GoDaddy (a horrible company) is going to ruin her. Of course they are more talented female drivers out there then Danica, but Danica isn't a bad driver in her own right. the only people that have a problem with Danica is Robby and Kyle Petty: Robby: everytime you talk about her i feel dedrade yourself. To me you seem to have that "male is better then female" complex. Robby i like you, but get over yourself. Now i have no idea way Kyle Petty hates Danica, he has Robby "male is better then female" complex but even more so then Robby. He throws Danica under the bus any chance he gets. Again, get over yourself. Oh and Kasey, get over yourself too. Sheesh. Note: the "male is better then female" complex is what i see Robby & KP have, i don't expect to offend people with it. Its just what i prseve them showing. 617. Eric posted: 12.29.2011 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have to change some of my predications around due to A.J. Allmendinger taking over for Kurt Busch. My predictions for the majors haven't changed and Kasey Khane still will win the cup championship. Daytona 500 - Tony Stewart or Kevin Harvick. Southern 500 - Kevin Harvick. Kevin did well here in 2012 before getting into a mess with Kyle. Coco Cola 600 - Kasey Kahne or Matt Kenseth. Brickyard 400 - Harvick, Stewart, or Kahne. What has changed is A.J. Allmendinger being in the chase and winning on a road course. A.J. Allmendinger actually was a great street course/road course driver in CART. Drivers that I see being in the chase in any order : Kasey,A.J. Allmendinger, Brad,Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, Matt Kenseth, Carl Edwards, Tony Stewart, Ryan Newman. I don't see Biffle getting in because I don't trust his crew. 618. Eric posted: 12.29.2011 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my top 5 WTF in Racing for 2011. I will not do top 5 WTF in other sports before the end year since it is very possible that people still act up in other sports or the chance of finding out what sports figures were Sam Hurd's "clients" for drug dealing. 1.) Busch Brother behaving badly - Too many examples this year of that this year. 2.) Brian Barnhart. New Hampshire fiasco is a good example why he is on the list and is no longer head of race control for Indycar. There are too many example of him not doing his job. New Hampshire Fiasco was forcing drivers to race on an oval while raining hard and caused a big accident as a result. 3.) Roush giving orders to all Ford Teams at Talladega. He cost Ford teams a possibility to win at a plate track besides his own. His stunt might have been a reason Carl didn't win the championship by limiting who he could draft with. 4.) Boobgate. Alienating your main fan base on twitter isn't a good idea(female race fans are a huge portion of Kasey's fanbase). The other problem here is you are supposed be careful what you type on Twitter or facebook a first place. 5.) Brian Vickers running amok. There is a reason Vickers isn't on a decent cup team next year. Just missed the top 5: Richard Childress beating up Kyle, and Race track in Houston concerning F1. 619. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.29.2011 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although KP is probably the best on TNT, he still is not much better than Mikey. And about broadcasting races on SPEED, they could be on FOX with Ray and Phil. My predictions: *Kurt will lose his Finch ride (which is REALLY saying something) because of his bad temper, and they pick up a free agent, possibly a David or Danica for a couple of races *Kyle will be fired by JGR, and will be without a ride for quite a while *During a road course race, Said will kill somebody *NASCAR will somehow get rid of the two-car draft Winners of big races: Daytona 500--Dave Blaney, if he's in the 36...he's good at superspeedways, but at Daytona and the first Talladega, luck has not gone his way, but finished 3rd at the second Talladega race Southern 500--Jeff Gordon, not because i'm biased, but he's just good at the track All-Star--Tony Stewart, he likes to drive hard when it counts and it most certainly does in this Coke 600--Jeff Burton, he's been hot at the end of last season and is one of the more conservative drivers Brickyard 400--Juan Pablo Montoya, his time will finally come, without bad luck. He's come SO close recently, but fell short because of wrecks or fuel mileage runs Points--1. Edwards 2. Gordon 3. Kahne 4. Kurt 5. Keselowski 6. Stewart 7. Kenseth 8. Johnson 9. Hamlin--Wild Card 10. Kyle 11. Allmendinger--Wild Card 12. Logano (My sleeper pick) 620. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2011 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, awesomegordonfan, you and I both think there will be still another three-time winner of the 600 next year, though we disagree on who it will be. But picking Allmendinger AND Joey Logano to be in the Chase? Logano probably won't keep his ride for 2013, though I'm not sure enough about that to list it in my list of predictions, and you know my opinions on how overrated I think you and the other posters rate Allmendinger. But those are your predictions and I have mine, so we'll leave it at that. 621. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.29.2011 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "*NASCAR will somehow get rid of the two-car draft" I've already made mention of this, SMALLER RADATIORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good Grief. -_____________________________________________- Yeah lets ruin what is the lesser of the 2 evils at Daytona and Talladega. Even Junior says the rule changes are dangerous. Yeah Jr. like your opinion matter, you were bitched (in a complaining way for you female readers) up a storm about it too and so are your fans. (who blindy follow every word you say and say its the gossipal. 622. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.30.2011 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kahne's "Boobgate" is the epitome of silly season. In other news... RGIII! Good grief Baylor V. Washington game was insane. 623. Spen posted: 12.30.2011 - 8:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: "There will be no first-time winners in 2012." I'd give that a 50/50 chance. Allmendinger could steal one (though I think it's less likely now. RPM had a better Dover setup than Penske.), and there's always a chance of a random plate winner (Blaney being the best shot, I think.). But still a reasonable assumption. "At least one of Jack Roush's drivers may not return in 2013" Biffle. He'll be gone by season's end. "More than one, and as many as four current Cup teams may expand in 2013." That I'm questioning. Penske will likely bring back Hornish and the #77 in '13, but who else is going to expand? I can't see Gibbs expanding until Darrell Wallace is ready for Cup (he'll be a cash cow regardless of whether or not he's any good), and RCR will likely hold off until Ty's ready before going back to four. Unless Bayne picks up a sponsor, I don't see the #6 coming back full-time, and RPM and EGR don't seem to be in a good enough posistion to expand. SHR of course is expanding for Danica, but I count that for this year, not next. "Jimmie Johnson will return to form as Hendrick Motorsports' top performer in 2012" No argument. I agree with you regarding his championship chances. "The 2012 Daytona 500 may likely go off without it's defending champion." Bayne will be in the race. It might just be in Front Row's backup car, but he'll be in the race. If NASACR has successfully 'fixed' the two-car draft, Trevor won't have any further objections. "The All-Star Race will have the Daytona 500 winner in it this year." 99% likelyhood. "The 54th Daytona 500: 29-Kevin Harvick" I'm going with Smoke on this one. He's due, and he's got something to prove. Barring any mental failure on his part (which could very well happen), he should pull it off. "The 63rd Southern 500: 11-Denny Hamlin" Hard to predict. I don't see either Gibbs or Gordon being strong enough next year. Brad, maybe? "All-Star Race XXVIII: 18-Kyle Busch" Good chance of it. "The 53rd Coca-Cola 600: 5-Kasey Kahne" Yeah. "The 19th Brickyard 400: 14-Tony Stewart" Possibly. I'd wait and see how everyone's intermediate and larger program is doing before making calls on a mid-season race. "My 12 Chase drivers for 2012" Agree with all but one. I don't see Biffle making the chase. If he couldn't make it in a good year for Roush, I can't see it happening in an off year. I think Burton's gonna make one final chase appearance. DSFF: "In the cha$e he puts on a vintage "I am still Jeff Gordon" performance" In autumn? Hahahahahahaha! Sorry man, but I don't see that happening. "That is also the weekend RPM announces they are shutting down due to lack of funds in '13. Sad exit for The King." God I hope not. awesomegordonfan: "Kurt will lose his Finch ride (which is REALLY saying something)" Given Finch's track record, no it's not. It'd be more shocking if he kept the ride all year. "Kyle will be fired by JGR, and will be without a ride for quite a while" Don't I wish. But not likely, unless Kyle totally loses his mind. Which granted, he's been known to do, but watching his brother struggle to finish 26th every week should keep him in line. For this year, anyway. 2014 will be back to normal. 624. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2011 - 9:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The key to Gordon's success in the majors is that he drives EVERY race like it is the Daytona 500. He has the competitive drive, talent, and mental stability to win anywhere. Yeah he has a lot of major wins, but he has a lot of wins EVERYWHERE. He wants to win them all just the same. Remember when he lost that great duel with JJ at Martinsville in '07? He was just as bummed about that as he was when he got snookered by Menard at Indy this year. 625. cjs3872 posted: 12.30.2011 - 9:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, of the 12 Chase drivers I predicted, Greg Biffle's spot was the only one I really wrestled with. I had the other 11 drivers pretty easily, but the 12th one I wrestled with. I had a hard time picking betwen Bifle, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and either of the Ganassi drivers, Juan Montoya or Jamie McMurray. Jeff Burton was never on my radar, as his time has passed. Which brings me to my more than one team expanding for 2013 prediction. There are a significant number of teams candidates. First, there is Richard Childress, who I do expect to expand in 2013, adding Austin Dillon to the Cup team, at least on a part-time basis. Then, I expect Penske to do the same, returning Sam Hornish, Jr. to the Cup series in 2013. I still wouldn't count out Roush, Ganassi, RPM, or Stewart-Haas expanding in 2013, either, if the right situation came up. As for my prediction on Roush drivers not staying with Roush for 2013 among his current crop of five drivers. I expect that Biffle might leave, but probably Trevor Bayne might join him as current Roush drivers leaving, if Roush can't find more sponsorship. If he can't, Roush might be forced to cut ties with Bayne, whether he wants to or not. And as for my prediction that Bayne, the defending Daytona 500 winner might not be in the 2012 race. I make that prediction based on two things. First, if he's back in the #21 car, there's no guarantee that the #21 car will get a points transfrer like it did from Richard Petty's #19 car from 2010 to '11. And secondly, if you're right about him being in a FRM car, which I doubt, it won't have the points to fall back on, so there's a possibility that he might fail to qualify for the race if he had to race his way in for that organization. Remember that after time trials, no more than four positions, two per race, get in from the qualifying races. And there's the possibility that he won't even have a ride for the Daytona 500 at all, which would be an absloute travesty. I still think that Roush will put him in the #6 car for the special races for which he's qualified from his Daytona 500 win (the Budweiser Shootout and the All-Star Race), since the Wood Brothers are likely to sit those races out, focusing instead on their 12-15 point race schedule. 626. Eric posted: 12.30.2011 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Biffle isn't likely to leave Roush in his own terms after 2012 season because Greg signed a 3 year deal during the 2011 season that lasts through the 2014 season. That deal included Biffle's Sponsor 3M continuing on through the 2014 season also with Roush. Jack usually doesn't let out drivers from their contract early if it is not performance, sponsor, or off the track related. 627. cjs3872 posted: 12.30.2011 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're most likely right, Eric, but I didn't orginially bring up Biffle's name. Spen did. I just predicted that at least one of Roush's drivers for 2012 wouldn't be there in 2013, including Nationwide drivers. I still say all signs on that point to Trevor Bayne as being the odd man out, but Greg Biffle is a possibility, as well. After all, Roush currently has five drivers, and only four cars to put them in, Nationwide included, plus he's got Chris Buescher waiting in the wings in ARCA, which would make six, so at least one on his current drivers, and maybe as many as three, could get caught in a numbers game, if not a sponsorship game, and all signs point to Trevor Bayne as the odd man out late in 2012, where sponsorship is concerned. After all, there's something about him that sponsors just don't like. After all, five drivers for four cars dosen't add up, much less five drivers for three cars, or six drivers for four cars. That's why I said that at least one of Roush's drivers for 2012 will not be there in 2013, and three of them, Edwards, Stenhouse, and Kenseth are definately safe, so either Biffle or Bayne is likely to be the odd man out, and my money goes with Bayne as the one that will have to be let go. 628. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.31.2011 - 5:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Time to suck eggs... Points in 2012: 1. Either Matt Kenseth or Jimmie Johnson, last time Kenseth was explosive with lots of DNFs, he won the title the following year 2. Johnson or Kenseth, definite 1-2, both with have 1-3 wins 3. Jeff Gordon, with 1 or 2 wins 4. Tony Stewart, with most wins on season 5. Kevin Harvick 6. Kasey Kahne 7. Carl Edwards 8. Brad Keselowski 9. AJ Allmendinger, will finally win a race, might win more 10. Dale Earnhardt, Jr., fate will be a ... 11. Kyle Busch 12. Jamie McMurray Daytona 500: Major upset folks with Dave Blaney winning. Aaron's 499: David Gilliland, another upset Southern 500: Jeff Gordon All-star: Ryan Newman Coke 600: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (sounds odd, but I want it) Pepsi 400: Tony Stewart Brickyard 400: Tony Stewart Guys who will races, in order by points for Chase guys as I have listed, and random for all else: Stewart; Edwards, Busch; Kenseth, Johnson, Gordon; Earnhardt, Jr., McMurray, Keselowski, Harvick, Kahne (might not win until the Chase); non-Chasers who will win: Blaney, Gilliland, Newman, Ambrose, Montoya (at Loudon), Jeff Burton, and one more major upset (something crazy like Regan Smith's win); all others are unknowns. All right, it is chow time! 629. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 12.31.2011 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everyone thinks NASCAR fining drivers for "stupid" stuff, the No Fun League fined Pats WR Wes Welker 10K for wearing a non-licesened hat. This is way the NFL sucks eggs and NASCAR rules. :-P 630. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.01.2012 - 11:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, he will lose his ride. No doubt, especially with the Hornaday incident last year. God, let's hope that doesn't happen in Cup... 628: Gilliland...his only good plate race last year was the Daytona 500, and that was thanks to Edwards. There's no way he'll wil the 499. Newman winning the All-Star is a long shot Unless it's another fuel mileage race, Junior won't win the 600 Montoya won't win at Loudon, if anything it'll be at Infineon, the Glen, or Indy. 629. Because "everyone" IS stupid. :P Eric, he'll probably leave before then, if not at the end of his contract (2014). 631. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.01.2012 - 11:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also hope that S+P numbers will go down, especially in the Nationwide series. In Cup, it's been going down, in this race there's only 4 S+Ps compared to the average of around 6. :) 632. cjs3872 posted: 01.01.2012 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Awesomegordonfan, I tihnk start-and-parks will go up, and posibly way up in the Cup series this coming season. In fact, I think there may be races where up to a quarter of the field S&P's. Not only do you have the same S&P teams you had last year (up to seven or eight in a given race, depending on the race), but with the demise of Red Bull Racing with no replacement, one Roush and one Childress car, and only one to be filled, to my knowledge, by a part-time Stewart-Haas Racing car, you'l probably have races next year with up to ten S&P cars, nearly one quarter of the field. In fact, I hate to say this, but you'll probably see a few start-and-parks in the Daytona 500 for the first time since 1972, because there are so few fully funded teams for 2012, some some fully funded teams have dropped cars due to lack of sponsorship. That's one reason I made the prediction of multiple teams expanding for 2013, becaue I thknk some of those teams that had to be dropped for 2012 will return in 2013 (like the #6 Roush Racing and #33 Childress Racing cars, as well as the #12 or #77 Penske Racing car, which didn't race in 2011, which I think may return in 2013). 633. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.01.2012 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said I hope, not I think... 634. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.01.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even with the backup QB, the Packers hang 45 points on a good Lions D. Flynn will be a starter somewhere soon. I think we will see a Pats/Packers Super Bowl. Even though both of their defenses are a bucket of garbage, they can still outscore you. My Super Bowl prediction: Green Bay 63 New England 59. Seriously. 635. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.01.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ does that including Stephen A. Smith crying like a little girl on monday because the broncos are in the playoffs with an "ineptiuded, non-QB" at QB? 636. Eric posted: 01.01.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Green Bay going to the Super bowl isn't automatic because the Saints offense is as strong as the Packers are despite the fact I am Packer fan since the 1980's. I do think the Lions have a chance against the Saints though. I agree that scoring over 110 points is a possibility if those two teams meet each other in the super bowl. I do think the Packers will resign Matt Flynn for doing a sign and trade deal and that means the Packers will get at least will be getting at least first or a 2nd round draft choice for Matt Flynn. The Packers could get 2 draft choices for Matt Flynn matter of fact and could fix their defense a little bit as a result depending on what year the Packers would get the draft picks for Flynn in. 637. ii posted: 01.01.2012 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I've already made mention of this, SMALLER RADATIORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That won't work. Half the field will have water blowing out of their cars, and the race would be the same pace as the '08 Brickyard 400 all over again. "Awesomegordonfan, I tihnk start-and-parks will go up, and posibly way up in the Cup series this coming season. In fact, I think there may be races where up to a quarter of the field S&P's. Not only do you have the same S&P teams you had last year (up to seven or eight in a given race, depending on the race), but with the demise of Red Bull Racing with no replacement, one Roush and one Childress car, and only one to be filled, to my knowledge, by a part-time Stewart-Haas Racing car, you'l probably have races next year with up to ten S&P cars, nearly one quarter of the field. In fact, I hate to say this, but you'll probably see a few start-and-parks in the Daytona 500 for the first time since 1972, because there are so few fully funded teams for 2012, some some fully funded teams have dropped cars due to lack of sponsorship. That's one reason I made the prediction of multiple teams expanding for 2013, becaue I thknk some of those teams that had to be dropped for 2012 will return in 2013 (like the #6 Roush Racing and #33 Childress Racing cars, as well as the #12 or #77 Penske Racing car, which didn't race in 2011, which I think may return in 2013)." Let's see... #13: Has been start-and-parking w/o sponsorship from Geico for 18-20 races/yr, but otherwise races #30: Still looking for a sponsor but plans to run 34 races (no road courses) #32: In the top-35 in owners points but looking for a sponsor to run #36: Sponsor/Blaney may not return next year, may go back to start-&-park #37: Wise is running for ROTY, so most likely running full races #46: No plans for 2012 yet #66: Will start and park #71: Lally went back to Grand-Am, no sponsor yet #87: No doubt start-and-park #4: Jacques Villenuve may buy RBR #7: May not return #35: May only run a few races #50: Has sponsorship for a few races #52: Definite S&P Former #55: May not return #60: Shut down #64: Only the Sprint Showdown #75: New team w/ Derrike Cope, definite S&P #81: No plans #83: See #4 #92: Try to run some races #93: 10-15 races #95: 15 races #97: Unsure From jayski.com It looks the same to me, just 2 more field-fillers and a few less after that. It looks like there will be less start-and-parkers. As for the 500...no start and parks for that. Only the more funded teams will make it, so it shouldn't be a problem. "Even with the backup QB, the Packers hang 45 points on a good Lions D. Flynn will be a starter somewhere soon. I think we will see a Pats/Packers Super Bowl. Even though both of their defenses are a bucket of garbage, they can still outscore you. My Super Bowl prediction: Green Bay 63 New England 59. Seriously." Flynn will end up on a mediocre team, like the Dolphins, Jaguars, Seahawks, or Cards. Especially on teams that need QB depth, Flynn would be a good addition. Agreed on the Pats/Packers making the Super Bowl, but I'm a little biased since I'm from NE. Pats win, 45-38. Seriously. Predictions for 2012: Champ: Edwards (2371 pts.)-4 wins 2: Johnson (-13)-3 wins 3: Kenseth (-23)-0 wins 4: Stewart (-27)-6 wins 5: Gordon (-27)-1 win 6: Kyle Busch (-69)-3 wins 7: Harvick (wild card) (-70)-3 wins 8: Earnhardt (-84)-0 wins 9: Keselowski (-102)-0 wins 10: Newman (-127)-1 win 11: Allmendinger (-137)-1 win 12: Ambrose (wild card) (-184)-2 wins Edwards gets redemption and wins the last 3 races and wins due to Johnson's loose lug nut with 30 laps to go at Homestead. Kenseth is as consistent as last year, but with no wins. Stewart wins the most but lacks consistency. Gordon repeats his '09 season but lacks performance at Martinsville. Kyle Busch is also inconsistent. Junior has another goose egg in the win column but Letarte provides consistency. Keselowski is the same but with Paul Wolfe as CC. Newman repeats last year, Dinger wins at 'Dega, and Ambrose sweeps the road courses but lacks in the Chase. Notables: Kahne (18th): Extremely slow start, almost misses the top-35 after 5 races but gets the hang of his Chevy and scores the most points in the last half of the season than anyone else. 1 win (Bank of America 500) Points: (-1532) Biffle (13th): Missed the Chase due to the wild card rule, but scores the highest not in the playoffs. 0 wins. Points: (-1375) Bowyer (24th): Leaves MWR midway due to a lack of chemistry between him and Brian Pattie. Joins EGR for the rest of the season. 1 win (last 'Dega) Points: (-1793) Burton (14th): Also missed the Chase because of the wild card, but won at Chicago and New Hampshire. 2 wins. Points: (-1382) Hamlin (46th): Injured in a Daytona qualifing session, misses 35 races. Finishes 36th at Homestead after a blown engine. Replacement: Michael McDowell. (There needs to be an injury after none since Johnson's golf cart incident a few years ago) Montoya (17th): Finishes 2nd at both RC to the Devil. Wins the brickyard, but lacks overall consistency. Points: (-1515) 638. Eric posted: 01.01.2012 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ii, I don't see the Jaguars being one the teams that could be interested in Flynn. I know Blaine Gabbert didn't play great as a rookie, but they have problems at Wide Receiver that didn't help matters. The Jaguars spent first round picks at that Position in 2004 and 2005, but they didn't pan out. 639. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.01.2012 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That won't work. Half the field will have water blowing out of their cars, and the race would be the same pace as the '08 Brickyard 400 all over again." This is the length NASCAR is going to to "stop" the 2 car draft. I'm really suprised no else pissed off about this. NASCAR is doing their damnedest to try and get pack racing back that they'll risk having 5+ blown motors because of all the whining about the 2 car draft. Actually i think 10+ blown motors isn't out of the question. 640. Anonymous85 posted: 01.02.2012 - 1:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tebow is nothing more then a fluke 641. Spen posted: 01.02.2012 - 2:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: Even Nemechek tries to go the distance at Daytona. Unless Cope and Norm Benning make the field, we probably won't have any start & parks for that race. And that would require a qualifying race straight out of 1992. ii: I don't even know where to start there, so I won't say a word. 642. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.02.2012 - 4:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) People are ignoring SF's insanely good defense. 643. Scott B posted: 01.02.2012 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Chase drivers: Returning from 2011: Tony Stewart, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick, Matt Kenseth, Brad Keselowski, Jimmie Johnson, Dale Earnhardt Jr, Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin, Kyle Busch. Not returning: Kurt Busch, Ryan Newman. Making it after missing in 2011: Kasey Kahne, Greg Biffle. I have Biffle and Junior figured as the wildcards. The #16 team may be stronger after the Roush downsizing. Mixed year for Jr. Nation, I think he'll finish lower in points and most statictical categories, but break the winless streak. Kurt doesn't make the cut for obvious reasons. His only hope would be a win and staying in the top 20 for a wildcard, seems like a longshot. Newman is always borderline. With the attention focused on Smoke defending his title and Danica, I think he falls out this year. 2012 Championship: I'm going to have to with JJ returning to form. Kenseth should also be strong. And, as much as I hate to say it, the most victories may go to Kyle Busch, if he's more focused on Cup (sitting out Trucks and scaling back NNW). 644. Scott B posted: 01.02.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: "There will be no first-time winners in 2012." I tend to agree. Dinger will register a few top-5's, but I wouldn't count on a win. No one else really stands out as a likely candidate, other than a restrictor plate, weather related, or fuel economy finish. Fuel may be a big factor this season as teams adapt to injection in place of carbs, they will figure out the window under "normal" conditions quickly, but no one will know how far they can stretch it when they are pressed to max out every drop. Even when that happens, I don't see a first-timer being in position to benefit, though. 645. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.02.2012 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem with the Saints is they aren't nearly as good outside. SF's playing field is a mud pit by the time January rolls around which plays to their strengths of good D and slow the game down by running. Also it gets really freaking cold inn Wisconsin this time of year. They will need to win in at least one of those places (probably both) just to make it to the Super Bowl. I don't see that happening. 646. Eric posted: 01.02.2012 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't ignore the 49er's defense at all because the fact I mentioned them in December as a concern to the Packers when I was not on the internet. The 49ers offense actually is great fit depending on what the weather is in Green Bay. The 49ers game plan is the same the New York Giants used for winning the Super Bowl against the Buffalo Bills in the Super Bowl. As a person who live in Wisconsin, the wind is not bad every day during the winter. It doesn't snow every day either in Wisconsin either. That means it may not affect the Packers for passing into the wind. Snow may not be an issue if it like it was for the Packers against the Lions. 647. Eric posted: 01.02.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't talk about the Saints against the 49ers yet. Detroit can be a great test for them and remember Ndamukong Suh did not play against the Saint when they lost 31 to 17 either due to him being suspended. 648. cjs3872 posted: 01.02.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, if Allmendinger performs like he did last year, I wouldn't even count on a few top 5s. More like a few more finishes between 6th and 12th. Remember that, while Allmendinger finished races better with Petty's operation in 2011, it was Marcos Ambrose that ran better almost all the time, even on the ovals. And while I don't really think this was a terrible hire, like the David Stremme fiasco was, it wasn't a great hire either. I think the #22 will struggle with an inferior driver in 2012. But I have been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again, but Allmendinger has shown me nothing to indicate that he can run up front in NASCAR, even in Penske's equipment. And his lack of performance in 2011 is either a red herring (a fluke), or a sign that he doesn't have what it takes to succeed in NASCAR. 649. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.02.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Detroit will give NO a good game in the dome. But I think they will be undone by their critical weakness: personal fouls. Not just Suh, but I can see other Lions committing back breaking penalties at the worst times as they continue their efforts to be like John Madden's Raiders of the 70's. I am also aware that San Fran's Candlestick Park (or whatever it is called now) isn't as bad as it used to be since the Giants quit playing baseball there (and moved into the best ballpark in MLB) adding all that additional wear to the surface. But it is still anything but a dome. Remember the Saints losing to the awful 7-9 Seahawks in the playoffs outside last year? Or them having trouble in Tennessee this year against 86 year old Matt Hasselback? I just have trouble seeing them win consecutive games at Candlestick and Lambeau. And yes, SF should not be slept on. They definitely have the best shot at upending Green Bay. Unfortunately the Super Bowl is in a dome. Their best hope there is to face Baltimore and win a 13-9 type game. 650. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.02.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think Detroit will give NO a good game in the dome. But I think they will be undone by their critical weakness: personal fouls." THat is what annoys me about the Lions, a good team but good grief they can't keep their heads outta their a$$es. They get 1 PF penalty then its like an avalanche, more to come. SF isn't getting enough credit (especially the coach) for what they are doing. Alex Smith was looking like another coming of Rex Grossmen but now is a good QB. I think they'll make the Championship game at the most. The other teams (Steelers, Pats, Ravens and Saints) all have been there before, so experience should account for something. Now with Mendenhall out for Pittsburgh, Denvers chance at winning go up by alittle but they will still be destoried. 651. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.03.2012 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to OSU on winning the Festia Bowl. F**K THE BCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 652. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In an alternative universe without the current BCS, Oklahoma State would wait to play the winner of the LSU-Alabama game... but that will never happen. So, the world may never now. 653. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correction: The world may never know without a playoff. 654. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 8:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) C'mon guys, can we maybe can it with the football talk? Seriously, (and I may be the only one here complainin') but seriously.....I don't wanna hear it! Let's talk about racing. 95 WRX keeps mentioning it but no one seems to care all that much.....the radiators. He's correct in his assessment that "NASCAR is doing their damnedest to try and get pack racing back that they'll risk having 5+ blown motors because of all the whining about the 2 car draft." "Actually i think 10+ blown motors isn't out of the question." ^^^My guess is that for speedweeks as a whole, we'll be looking at 15+ blown motors. At least. And yes, it pisses me off, too. While I DO long for the old days of pack racing, at the same time, I have absolutely NO beef with the tandem drafting. It is only the politics (and the excessive radio channel 'surfing' that comes with it) that piss me off. And everybody can call the lead changes 'manufactured' all they want.....I don't how or WHY they're doing it....if the leads changing hands frequently ALLL DAY LONG? Sorry, but I find that just plain great. And the current ability to slingshot? Gimme a break, that's as close to a pre-plate slingshot as we'll EVER get (at least with these less-boxy-than-'84 cars of today) The only thing they could do (for me) to make plate racing better is to eliminate the yellow line rule, limit driver-to-driver communications (which I hear they're gonna be doing anyways) and take the plates off for qualifying. 655. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 9:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) and CJS.....Why no love for Allmendinger? You claim to see nothing special in this guy. That's fine. I, on the other hand, DO see something in this guy....a lot of people do. And YOU, of all people, (with your heightened knowledge of the sport) should see what a lot of other people see. In AJ, I see a guy who's overcome a lot to get to where he is right now. I'm not gonna rehash the '07-'08 Red Bull debacle or how AJ sacrificed pay to keep RPM afloat.....or how he's never been in top-tier equipment. Those were tests of character, which he passed (in my opinion) Forget that stuff.....and forget that he didn't score more top 5's this year than 2010, or that he lead less laps. There is REAL potential with this guy. He WILL be a winner in NASCAR and he WILL break through this year. I'm sorry, but when a guy shows slow, but steady progression over 5 consecutive seasons....that tells me he LEARNS from his mistakes, takes care of his equipment, and strives to achieve. All marks of a good (not great, but solidly good) driver. I (nor anybody else) is saying that he'll be a title contender anytime soon (if ever), but he isn't some mid-pack turd like you sort of seem to think he is.....he'll surprise you. 656. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff, there is only so much racing we can talk about. Especially in today's NASCAR where the status quo has been as unshakable as ever due to the humongous clog in the talant pipeline caused by the Cup takeover of the NWide Series. This is the craziest off season in a long time. Kurt mutually agreeing to get fired by Roger, Dinger getting that ride, the anticipation of ofKasey going to HMS overshadowwd by BoobGate, and the crew chief carosel. And still there is only so much to talk about. Don't worry, in just one month it will be up and going once again for 10 solid months. Another thing, I think most of us realize there is a 98% chance 2012 will be a let down after a very looney yet entertaining 2011. After finally seeing a new guy break through from the lower ranks and make serious Cup noise for the first time since '06 (Brad), unknowns grabbing most of the crown jewels, and a points battle that looked to be reminiscent of '91 and '02 where a guy wins by default, which it looked like Carl would "win" only for the last three races to be unexpectedly entertaining as hell as Smoke jumped up, battled him for wins, and hijacked the title. The only real stories to look forward to at this point are Dinger at Penske, Kahne at HMS, and that is about it. All other stories have been done before (will June win again year III, can Jj continue to be elite year XI, will we see a new mautre KyBu year XII, etc). But since you want to talk racing, and you mentioned Dinger, I will give my thoughts. He has been a slow learner in stock cars, but he has progressed every year in organizations a few notches below elite. He hasn't packed it in, kept his nose down, kept plugging forwardand has shown he is no quitter. I think he can do it. I don't think he will explode out of the gate, but I think he will get there. He has earned a lot of respect, and I think his team will rally around him. Just don't know if it will be seen this year. 657. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meant to say will we see the new mature KyBu year VII. Not XII. 2017 will be year XII of that. Roman numerals never were my thing :) 658. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Personally, I think I'm more excited for the NW season....the talent pool is actually gonna be fairly decent next year (or at the very least, surefire entertainment). Dillon, Hornish, Danica (sorry, but she's really not that bad...has shown massive progression from 2010-2011), Stenhouse (I would hope), Allgaier, possibly Cole Whitt, and who knows which Cup series cast-offs will end up there. Combine these faces with the fact that Kyle and Carl will both be driving in WAAAAY less NW races in 2012....and you've got the makings of an interesting season. Plus, there's the possibility that Kurt will run Kyle's car for the title, while not collecting points in Cup. So DSFF, you seem to be on the ball this morning. What are YOUR thoughts on NW next year? I'm just trying to invoke some more racing discussion....hahahaha I'm sorry, it's just that I can only watch SO many old races in the off season before I start getting antsy. 659. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) and aside from the Pats, I couldn't care less what the rest of the NFL is doing....so forgive me. :P 660. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, I say what I do about Allmendinger simply because he hasn't run as well as his teammates, even last year, which is more telling. Yes, you can say that in his first two or three years was due to inexperience, but that argument doens't fly for last year, his fifth, especially considering that, more often than not, Marcos Ambrose, his 2011 teammate, who has even less experience with NASCAR-sized stock cars, consistently ran better than Allmendinger on ovals. You are, however, spot on about Allmendinger's ability to limit his mistakes, which resulted in better finishes more often than Ambrose, hence a higher standing in points. But you can't win if you're not fast enough to at least contend for the lead, or least be on par with your teamate in a mulit-car team, and Allmendinger hasn't proven to me that he can do that yet. Now that's not to say that he won't, but the ride in Penske's #22 car is, to me, his last shot in a real good car. If he runs like he did last year compared to his teammate, we'll know that he can't cut it, but if he runs better, especially compared to his teammate, then he'll be around for a while longer, but if he languishes behind Keselowski the same way he languished behind Ambrose (in terms of performance), his days in NASCAR are numbered. Though saying that, Keselowski is obviously much farther along than is Ambrose, but Petty's cars are, in my mind, better than Penske's at this point, due to Roush's technology, while Penske ois a lone wolf, and if Penske gets behind, they only way he's likely to catch up as long as he's running Dodges is with sheer luck regarding setups, or flat-out cheating, which Penske is dead-set against. But Petty's pit crews are among the worst in the sport, and have been for many years, while Penske's are always among the best in the sport. 661. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2012 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Smiff_99, we have no idea what's going to happen in the Nationwide Series, especially where Roush is concerned. Will he run Stenhouse to defend his title, or will he run Trevor Bayne to try to get him a title. But it sure looks like he's not going to be able to run both of them. And we can add USAC driver Brad Sweet to those that are going to run a limited season, splitting the #38 Turner Motorsports ride with Kasey Kahne, though I'm not quite sure abouthis prospects. But the field of drivers legitimately competing for the Nationwide championship are just about as thin as it was last year, if not even thinner. You've got Austin Dillon and Elliott Sadler representing Childress, like I said, one of, but probably not both of Roush's development drivers (unless they miraculously find sponsorship), Justin Allgaier representing Turner, and who knows about the #88 car that Aric Almirola drove last year, whether or not that will be driven by a title-eligible driver (I don't think Danica's going to make much noise at all next year). So the ranks of the title contenders in the Nationwide Series is, in my mind, very thin. That's why we might se a rookie (Austin Dillon) take the title in 2012. 662. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 11:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but the ride in Penske's #22 car is, to me, his last shot in a real good car." ^^^I won't disagree with that. hahaha not one bit. "but if he languishes behind Keselowski the same way he languished behind Ambrose (in terms of performance), his days in NASCAR are numbered." ^^^I agree with this in the sense that if he does terrible, he'll be done. If he puts up 2011 numbers (in the 22) while Kez repeats HIS 2011, then he'll look awful. But seriously, as far as him and Marcos go, languishing? Their stats are pretty damn close.....Ambrose had a few more top 5's and the win at the Glen. How do their driver rating's compare? Is that where you find the disparity? "Yes, you can say that in his first two or three years was due to inexperience, but that argument doens't fly for last year, his fifth, especially considering that, more often than not, Marcos Ambrose, his 2011 teammate, who has even less experience with NASCAR-sized stock cars, consistently ran better than Allmendinger on ovals" ^^^BZZZZT!!! Wrong! First off...seriously? Ambrose came from V8 super cars and Allmendiger came from ChampCar......and AMBROSE has less experience in NASCAR sized stock cars? OH COME ON, CJS, YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING!!! hahaha Not to mention, Ambrose has one more full year more in NASCAR than the Dinger AND he was allowed time to adapt and develop in trucks in 2006, and NW in '07 and '08. AJ was 'thrown to the wolves' in '07, with only a handful of stock car starts to his credit at the time. 663. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) P.S.- hahaha I'm honestly not trying to sound like a dick or ruffle any feathers, so if I do, forgive me. I just like a healthy, spirited debate and today I'm feeling.....talkative, I s'pose. 664. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2012 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Ambrose didn't become a NASCAR regular until 2009, while Allmendinger came into NASCAR full-time two years earlier. Sure Ambrose had run some races previously to that, but they were mostly on road courses, and I'm just counting NASCAR races, not the years that Ambrose spent racing full-bodied cars in Australia, which were much smaller and lighter than the NASCAR machines. Now, Ambrose did run in the Truck Series, and frankly, Allmendinger should also have run more races in the lower NASCAR series to get acclamated than the few he ran with Ganassi a few years ago, which Allendinger said was a huge help to him. To me, that also seems to have been a problem with Sam Hornish, Jr. He needed more time in the lower series than he got, and at Phoenix last year, we saw the results of running the lower series more for Hornish. He won, and looked dominant in doing so. That's why I don't think it's such a bad idea to let drivers coming up in the Cup series also run more Truck and Nationwide races, but after three years, their action in the lower series should be limited. With Almendinger now running for Penske, I think it would be a great idea for Penske to have him run more Nationwide races to get him confidence to run up front. If he does, I think that will carry over and you'll see Allmendinger run closer to the front, but if he doesn't run closer to the front, it could spell the end of Allmendinger in a top-flight car in NASCAR. On another note, David Reutimann has apparently signed with Tommy Baldwin Racing to apparently team up with Dave Blaney for 2012. 665. Smiff_99 posted: 01.03.2012 - 12:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ambrose didn't become a CUP regular until '09. When we're dealing with coming over from another series, a full season in ANY of the top 3 NASCAR series counts towards experience. Without a doubt. So strictly referring to raw experience in a stock car (or truck), Ambrose has more seat time, period. And MILES more experience in a closed-cockpit, fendered car. "Allmendinger should also have run more races in the lower NASCAR series to get acclamated than the few he ran with Ganassi a few years ago, which Allendinger said was a huge help to him." ^^^See, I kinda feel like this goes along with my whole point this morning.....that due to extenuating circumstances, one way or another, AJ's been held back by....well, everything. He was promoted with too little experience (driving for a start-up team), then drove for a failing/ailing team in GEM/RPM.....he's NEVER had the chance to show his full potential until NOW. So we'll see..... (I promise, this is the last AJ-related comment I'll post until the season gets uder way.....lol) 666. Spen posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: Don't forget though, that A.J. did consistently outperform Elliott Sadler during the two years that they ran as teammates, and while far from elite, ESAd is a proven winner and one-time chase driver. A.J. also outperformed Menard, who's since won a race. Yeah, Kasey beat him handily, but they're clearly on two different levels. So I'd say that he's capable of at least replicating Esad's 2004 season, if not this year, than perhaps next. Sad to see Reutimann with TBR. Hopefully it won't be an S&P ride, at any rate. 667. Scott B posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reasons I like AJ are that (1) he's finshed higher in points in each of his Cup seasons and (2) he's passed the character test by not giving up and running back to open wheel when things got tough. On the other hand, I haven't seen one defining moment from him when that made me say "this kid will be able to mix it up with the top dogs." I did see that in Keso while he was in the NNW series, and signs of it in Stenhouse as well. That's why I'm not completely on his bandwagon, and not predicting a win this season. 668. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Spen, he ran better in 2010 than he did in 2011, as he was the #2 driver on a four-car team. And also, remember that Sadler was not anywhere close to the same driver than he had been in 2001-'04, when he scored all three of his Cup victories, so I wouldn't put any stock in just about any second-tier driver outperforming Sadler in 2009-'10. Now Menard has always been a curious case. At times, he has performed greatly, and other times, he has flat-out stunk up the joint. Now I think Allmendinder has oodles of talent, and in the right situation could be a top-tier performer. But he hasn't been in the right situation to prove it, and like many others that have come to NASCAR from other racing series, he was rushed into Cup. Now, I don't exactly mind guys from other series running the big races, such as the Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Southern 500, and Coca-Cola 600, they just shouldn't be rushed into full-time Cup service. In fact, I think the big races need bigger fields to allow some of these stars from other racing series to compete in the bigger races, if they choose. Just look at the starting grids for any number of Daytona 500s from the mid 60s through the early and mid 80s, as well as the first Brickyard 400 in 1994. Heck, the 1974 Daytona 500 had no fewer than NINE drivers, nearly one-quarter of the entire starting field, in it that had, at one time, drove in at least one Indianapolis 500, and the 1981 Daytona 500, which had drivers from virtually every discipline of the sport in it. After all, wouldn't it be something to see today's NASCAR drivers run in the Daytona 500, and have Scott Dixon, Will Power, Helio Castroneves, and Marco Andretti from IndyCar, along with some of today's top sports car drivers compete on the same track on tnhe same day, and in the same race as Gordon, Stewart, Johnsons, and Edwards, and Kenseth. After all, 30-40 years ago, you had guys like Rutherford, Sneva, Johncock, Gary Bettenhausen, and even Dick Simon, as well as Tim Richmond, who drove in the 1981 Daytona 500 before his full-time move to NASCAR. And you had guys like Elliott Forbes-Robinson, Al Holbert, George Follmer, as well as brothers Bill and Don Whittington representing the sports car set in the Daytona 500 at least once. Even Peter Gregg, one of America's greatest sports car drivers was in the 1973 World 600 at Charlotte in the final race for Cotton Owens' #6 car, in which Gregg had a pretty serious crash. But wouldn't it be great to see NASCAR's finest battle in events like the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 with the best from other forms of racing. Even sprint car legend Sammy Swindell drove in the Daytona 500 as far back as 1991. But what has happened in the last 20-25 years is that even the Daytona 500, NASCAR's biggest race, has just become another NASCAR race. The same is true with the Brickyard 400. I, for one, would like to see 50-car starting fields for these two events to allow for a more diverse driver lineup for these two marquee events, to set them apart from the other races on the circuit, beacause even the biggest race in NASCAR today is just another race with the same drivers. 669. Spen posted: 01.03.2012 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Quick note, it seems that Cole Whitt is going to drive the #88 in Nationwide. 670. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.03.2012 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cole Whitt is an excellent choice for the #88 Nationwide car. However, I'm concerned given JR Motorsports history of not giving Nationwide drivers enough time to develop, i.e. McFarland, Huffman. As for A.J. its a wait and see. Of course his performance should improve slightly by mid-season. I've got the feeling 2012 will be an intriguing season, but not quite as zany as 2011. I believe the Daytona 500 became just another race when the field of competitive go or go homers in the Twins or Duels shrunk and drivers talked about 'good points days' after the race. The mystique of the Daytona 500 is missing. 671. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.03.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii, I have two things about your comments. First, the Hamlin injury is kinda random. Second, I do hope that there are less start and parks. Cole Whitt would be great for a well-funded Nationwide team. He did great in mediocre equipment in the Trucks, and he has major talent. Finally, I really think that Tebow is a fluke. He's only winning because of the Bronco defense (under 20-point games that are barely won), and the Broncos won't make it out of the wild card game. If the Broncos keep Tebow for a while, their offense will be destroyed by other's defenses, like the '49ers and Ravens. In fact, with the whole Broncos offense, you only need two linebackers from the '49ers, as well as the ends. Super Bowl Pick: Packers 32, '49ers 17. 672. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.03.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) awesomegordonfan: 2 NFC teams in the Super Bowl? Huh?! 673. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.03.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My guess is that for speedweeks as a whole, we'll be looking at 15+ blown motors. At least." "fans" get their wish. I hope i'm wrong but i see a vast disaster: Either it doesn't work or 15+ blown motors. "And yes, it pisses me off, too. While I DO long for the old days of pack racing, at the same time, I have absolutely NO beef with the tandem drafting. It is only the politics (and the excessive radio channel 'surfing' that comes with it) that piss me off." Blame Jack "i can't stand being beat by other Ford teams" Roush for the polichickening. "And everybody can call the lead changes 'manufactured' all they want.....I don't how or WHY they're doing it....if the leads changing hands frequently ALLL DAY LONG? Sorry, but I find that just plain great. And the current ability to slingshot? Gimme a break, that's as close to a pre-plate slingshot as we'll EVER get (at least with these less-boxy-than-'84 cars of today)" "fans" think everything 'manufactured' by NASCAR now a days. But NOOOOOOOOOOO "fans" want a 43 car traffic jam 'manufactred' by NASCAR to keep them happy (use "happy" term loosely BTW) so they can have 30+ car pileups and pack racing.........*pukes*. "Finally, I really think that Tebow is a fluke. He's only winning because of the Bronco defense (under 20-point games that are barely won), and the Broncos won't make it out of the wild card game." Without Tim Tebow, Denver isn't in the playoffs period, btw Denver won their division, NOT the wild card. 20-25 time a game Tebow should throw it, not RUN IT 50 times like they have in the recent past. Tim Tebow isn't going to get anywhere in Denver, he'll have to go else where to make a carrer for himself. Note 1: Tim Tebow didn't need to be fixed because he wasn't broken throwing wise. He is one of the most profecent passers in college football history. The NFL has this mind set of a "pocket passer" should be, the NFL broke Tim Tebow when he didn't need to be fixed. Note 2: From what i've seen on other board i'm a part of, pack racing was just as "boring" as the 2 car draft is "boring." I guess its just "boring" period and "fans" are just complaining for the sake of complaining like they always do. 674. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope the NWide Series continues some of the positive momentum they established last year. With KyBu, Carl, and Brad cutting back, hopefully we will have quite a few races of non Cup guys fighting for the win. Hopefully. Mostly I hope we can get back to the days where you saw the future Cup stars developing. What I'm not looking forward to are the telecasts. Between Carl "I want to be a TV star" in the booth and the fact it will be the Danica Show, it should be grating. 675. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, the Daytona 500 became just another race in the late 1980s and early 1990s when drivers from other disciplines of racing stopped going to compete in that race. Like I said, the 1981 race had the most diverse driver loineup in history of the event, with sports car drivers like Elliott Forbes-Robinson and Don Whittington, both of whom were making their second start in the event, joining drivers like Johnny Ruhtherford, the reignign Indy 500 and IndyCar champion, who drove Ron Benfield's #98 car in that race , world land speed record holder Stan Barrett, powerboat racing champion Don Sprouse, and IndyCar driver Tim Richmond, who was about to embark on a successful, but tragically brief NASCAR career, joining the likes of A.J. Foyt, and the NASCAR brigade in the 1981 Daytona 500, which Tom Sneva, a two-time IndyCar champion, failed to qualify for driving for Jim Stacy. And let's not forget that the 1974 Daytona 500, which I'll be looking at tomorrow on my private programming schedule, had no fewer than nine drivers, nearly one-quarter of the 40-car starting field, having made at least one start in the Indianapolis 500. In addition to the three full-time NASCAR drivers that had previously started in the Indy 500 previously, which would be Cale Yarborough and the Allisons, you had Foyt and Rutherford, along with Gary Bettenhausen, who once drove in the Daytona 500 for future three-time Daytona 500 winning car owner Hary Ranier, in Roger Penske's AMC MAtador for the 1974 race, Dick Simon, who drove Doc Faustina's #5 car in the 1974 Daytona 500, and George Follmer, who drove Bud Moore's Ford in that race, as well as long-time favorite Jim Hurtubise. And that doesn't even Tony Bettenhausen, Jr., Gary's youngest racing brother, who drove the entire 1974 NASCAR season many years before joining his brother Gary in the ranks of IndyCar racing in the early 1980s. Again, what NASCAR needs to do with some of its marquee races is to expand the field, making room for car owners to possibly put these drivers from other disciplines in the big races. For instance, with only two cars each, there's plenty of room for Penske and Ganassi to put their star drivers who aren't in NASCAR, into races like the Daytona 500 and the Brickyard 400 (if the schedule allows it). After all, who wouldn't want to see drivers like Will Power and three-time Indianapolis 500 winner Helio Castroneves in Penske cars for the Daytona 500 (or 2006 Indy winner Sam Hornish, Jr.), or Scott Dixon and Scott Pruett, or even Dario Franchitti to race in the Daytona 500 for Ganassi. Not to mention I think guys like Marco Andretti, as well as some of the other IndyCar or sports car drivers would love to have a shot at running in the Daytona 500 or the Brickyard 400. But today's rules, with only seven or eight spots in the field available for each race, would make it impossible for drivers from other series to even want to take a stab at these big races, or for existing teams to expand their operations for these races to put star drivers from other series in these races. After all, wouldn't anyone else like to se drivers like Castroneves, Power, Dixon, Marco Andretti, Scott Pruett, and their likes run against the top NASCAR drivers in an environment in which they could be competitve? Putting them in a car for the Daytona 500 would, in my mind, provide just such an opportunity. 676. Anonymous85 posted: 01.03.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At Post 674: Especially if she somehow manages to win the Daytona 500 if that happens we will never hear the end of it for a long long, LONNNNNNGGGGG time. 677. Anonymous posted: 01.04.2012 - 7:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) God forbid that woman of perdition even makes the 500. She needs her wagon fixed just as much as a Busch brother. Maybe Robby Gordon will do it; he has said he wants to. 678. Smiff_99 posted: 01.04.2012 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Almirola is OFFICIALLY driving the 43 next year. Meh. 679. cjs3872 posted: 01.04.2012 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Smiff_99, and it appears that the TRG team that had fielded the #71 car is leaving to concentrate on it's sports car efforts, thus leaving the Cup series with still another vacancy that, quite frankly, wasn't counted on. The possibility of potential double-digit S&P's for several races, as well as the potential of the first Daytona 500 S&P since 1972 seems to be increasing. Also, Cole Whitt sems to be the front runner to be Almirola's replacement in the #88 NNS car. Almirola is another driver that, quite honestly, is below the standards of Cup racing that will be in a potential front running car next year. Anyone remember the disaster that his first stint in Cup was? And let's not forget that he was rarely competitive in the #88 NNS car, which may be even more telling than his disastrous stint in the #8 car for DEI/Ginn in 2009. 680. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.04.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "God forbid that woman of perdition even makes the 500. She needs her wagon fixed just as much as a Busch brother. Maybe Robby Gordon will do it; he has said he wants to." Robby has no room to talk. Robby and Kyle Petty have something in common, they have the "women can't be a racecar driver" mentallity. Danicas wagon is already fixed by GoDaddy cuz they are going to ruin her. There is no reason she can't be a decent NASCAR driver but GoDaddy only cares about the $$$$$$'s. 681. cjs3872 posted: 01.04.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think a lot of the people that want to see the women drivers fail want to se them fail because they may be jealous of the attention they get, which has been disproportionate, especialy considering their lack of success over the years, which has as much to do with lack of sponsorship and the fact that they're not wanted, as much as it's had to do with a lack of talent. Having said that however, Patrick isn't anywhere close to being as good a driver as some of the women circuit racers that preceeded her. Janet Guthrie, the first name woman driver, was also the best in my view, followed by Lyn St. James, who may have been the most accomplished. I might even rate Sarah Fisher as at least as good as Patrick. I personally think Danica is one of the most overrated drivers during my time of watching auto racing, which has been over 20 years. Put Janet Guthrie or Lyn St. James in the same equipment Danica has been when they were in their prime, and they would have been much more successful than Danica could have ever been, and they would have run circles around her, no pun intended. That being said, Danica did show vast improvement in the Nationwide Series races she ran in 2011 than she did in 2010. Still, I think it's a rather dodgy prospect to have her first race be the Daytona 500. But her Sprint Cup car owner, Tony Stewart, also made his debut in the Daytona 500 in 1999, as did Bobby Allison in 1961, if you don't count the qualifying race he ran, which counted as an official race back then. The same is true regarding Dick Brooks, who ran his first Cup races during 1969 SpeedWeeks, and Brooks was one of the better speedway drivers when he raced, running up front no matter who he drove for, even winning for the Crawford Brothers in the 1973 Talladega 500. 682. palo_s posted: 01.04.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #681: Lyn St. James drove for Dick Simon and her teamate was Raul Boesel.. 683. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.04.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't have a "women can't be successful drivers" mentality, I have a "people who are more interested in being marketing machines than being good drivers can't be successful drivers" mentality. It is the same reason I see Dale Jr continuing to not be a factor every single week like he is capable of with his talent. He'll probably win again, but not consistently like his first 5 seasons. 684. Scott B posted: 01.04.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #681: Let's all take a sworn oath never to mention Danica in the same breath as Bobby Allison again. Well, unless she gets out of her car and fights another driver on the Daytona infield on live TV, which I admit, would be as good for ratings as it was back in 1979. 685. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.04.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh...whoops, I meant Patriots, not '49ers. 686. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.04.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post 674...WHAT momentum? The Nationwide series racing was WORSE than the ESPN broadcasts. For example, KyBusch led all 200 laps in one race, about half the field is usually full of Cup regulars, and whenever a NWide driver actually wins, it always seems to be a Roush guy (Stenhouse, Bayne...) 681. Danica is mediocre, at best, but ESPN thinks that she is the BEST DRIVER EVER and won't get her camera off of her. 687. cjs3872 posted: 01.04.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, I wasn't comparing her to Allison. What I was saying was that I think it's too much pressure for her to make her Cup debut the Daytona 500, as was the case with Bobby Allison in 1961, Dick Brooks in 1969 (unless you count the qualifying races, which counted as oficial events back then), and even her Cup co-owner Tony Stewart, who made his Cup debut in the 1999 Daytona 500. I was, ion way comparing her to the second or third greatest NASCAR driver of all-time. In fact, if you had that entire post, you would have seen that, in my view, Danica doesn't even rank with Janet Guthrie or Lyn St. James among female drivers, though it appears that Danica will join the first lady of auto racing, Janet Guthrie, as just the second woman to run in both the Indianapolis 500 and the Daytona 500. -For the record, Janet Guthrie ran in two Daytona 500s and never finished lower than 12th, and was Dale Earnhardt's teammate in the 1980 race, when she was 12th. And if her engine hadn't lost TWO cylinders late in the 1977 race, she would've finished seventh or eighth from the 39th starting position. As it was, she finished 11th in the attrition-marred 1977 Daytona 500. 688. Bronco posted: 01.05.2012 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The two free agent drivers (Ragan and Vickers) known for wadding up race cars are the last ones left in line to find new rides. 689. LordLowe posted: 01.05.2012 - 3:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW I think That Both Busch Brothers should be deported to Somalia Or North Korea. 690. Scott B posted: 01.05.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #681/687- Sorry, I understood your intent. Just trying to make a bad joke. It was really pretty routine for drivers to make their debut in the Daytona 500 in the pre-restrictor plate days. For a lot of drivers, the Daytona qualifiers and the 500 would be the only Grand National races they attempted for the season. #688- Ragan will probably end up in NNW for 2012 and do OK there. Not spectacular, but OK. Vickers, I imagine will be in a part-time, non-competitive Cup ride for 2012 and slowly fade away and be forgotten. #689- Yeah, but that wouldn't be fair to the Somalians, they've got enough problems. Plus, Kurt in the James Finch car is actually one of the most interesting developments for the new season. 691. Talon64 posted: 01.05.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor Bayne's going to be back in the #21 Wood Brothers car for 2012. The number of races hasn't been announced yet, but another half-season seems likely. And Allmendinger, Almirola and Cole Whitt should send Kurt Busch belated Christmas cards for the gift he gave them by opening up all those opportunities with Meltdown 2.0. 692. cjs3872 posted: 01.05.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope you're right, Talon64, because it just wouldn't be right for the Daytona 500 to go off without it's defending champion even having a ride for the race. However, I believe you're incorrect about the number of races. It's more likely to be closer to one-third of the season, rather than half the season. From what I heard, their schedule is likely to be 12-15 races, with 15 being tops. However, Bayne, who's eligible for the Bud Shootout and the All-Star Race from his 2011 Daytona 500 win, almost certainly won't compete in either event, since the Wood Brothers aren't likely to compete in either, deciding to instead focus their attention on the points races, and Roush isn't likely to run the #6 car in those special events that Bayne is eligible for. This might also be a case of the Wood Brothers overruling Ford and Roush, who reportedly wanted Stenhouse in the #21 car for 2012, while the Woods wanted Bayne. However, unless the sponsorship changes, those races with the Wood Brothers, and maybe a handful of Nationwide races, might be all the races Bayne gets for 2012 if Roush has to cut down to one full-time Nationwide Series car. 693. 18fan posted: 01.06.2012 - 3:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Motorcraft and Quick Lane are going to sponsor the #21 car and Trevor Bayne for 12 races next year. 694. cjs3872 posted: 01.06.2012 - 7:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Which, 18fan, along with a handful of Nationwide races, might be the only races he runs in 2012, might be the only races he runs, unless he gets sponsorship for his Nationwide Series effort with Roush. And like I said, it also means that, unless a minor miracle happens, he almost certainly won't be in the special races that his 2011 Daytona 500 allows him to be in, such as the Bud Shootout and the All-Star Race. But it's at least good to see that the Daytona 500 winner will, at least get a shot to defend his title, though it's still marginal whether Roush will guarantee him a place in the field, as Richard Petty did last year when the points from his #19 car were transferred to the #21 car for last year's Daytona 500. And we all know how that turned out. If Roush does transfer the points, that will be one prediction I've made that I'll be more than glad to be wrong about. (See prediction #5 in post 609.) After all, there haven't ben very many major sporting events in which the defending champion hasn't even gotten a chance to participate in. It's certainly happened regarding the Indianapolis 500, where retirement and death have kept the reigning champion out of the race (as sadly will be the case with the 2012 Indianapolis 500, which will have no defending champion). It's also happened at the Daytona 500, where the 1965 and 1989 races went of without the defending champion. Richard Petty (and all the other Chrysler teams) sat out the '65 Daytona race, as Chryslker boycotted NASCAR due to the banning of the Hemi engine, and we all know circumstances surrounding why Bobby Allison was unable to defend his 1988 Daytona 500 win in 1989. But there have been other major sporting events not to have a defending champion. Among them were the 1949 U.S. Open golf championship, as Ben Hogan was unable to defend due to his horrific car vs. bus crash, and the crippling injuries that resulted. (It didn't keep him from winning three of the next four U.S. Opens, however.) The 1960 Masters also didn't have defending champion Art Wall in the field, due to illness. The same is true regarding the 1987 Southern 500, as defending champion Tim Richmond had AIDS. And numerous other major sporting events did not hve it's defending champion due to retirement, illness, injury, or death. To my knowledge, only the British Open had defending champions choose not to defend their title, due to the way that even the defending champion had to qualify prior to the early 1960s, and many of the American golf stars simply chose not to compete in the British Open. But a major sporting event that isn't a part of one of the major team sports is a little empty without it's reigning champion in the field, willing to defend his title. 695. cjs3872 posted: 01.06.2012 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's been confirmed that Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. wil run the 2012 Daytona 500 in Roush's #6 car, so Trevor Bayne, unless points can be found elsewhere, will have to qualify for the race on time, or finish in the top two among non-exempt drivers in his qualifying race. However, the Wood Brothers' car has been a bullet in qualifications in the last couple years in plate races. However, that seriously diminshes Bayne's chances of a good Daytona 500, since he will now be without a drafting partner. Remember that Bayne crashed in the Firecracker 400, largely because he didn't have a drafting partner and dropped back from the front row faster than an anvil drops from the air because of that, though he might get help from a driver with a famous last name. That's because Casey Mears' Germain Racing #13 team has apparently signed with Ford, changing over from Toyota for 2012. That means that the number of Ford organizations will remain the same as last year, with Germain's #13 team replacing TRG Motorsports (#71), which is leaving NASCAR to focus entirely on it's bread-and-buttrer, sports car racing. 696. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.06.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "WHAT momentum? The Nationwide series racing was WORSE than the ESPN broadcasts." Good question. It certainly wasn't a banner season, but some positive steps were made. Eliminating Cup drivers from title contention saw them competing less and less by the mid point of the season, and gave some other drivers a chance to be spotlighted. Hopefully this will lead to the talent pipeline opening up a little bit. It is definitely baby steps. But hopefully it will lead to brighter days ahead. 697. Scott B posted: 01.06.2012 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The manufacturer switch by Germain means Casey Mears will have driven for all four active manufacturers in Sprint Cup when he takes the green flag. Kasey Kahne was already on schedule to do that at Daytona as well, when he joins Hendrick. 698. 18fan posted: 01.06.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reports are that Rusty Wallace Racing is suspending operations and RWR has released Michael Annett to allow him to explore other options. 699. OldSchoolNascarDude posted: 01.07.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I posted this on another forum, but it's worth repeating. A lot of the people that hate Steven Wallace are probably the same people who hate seeing cup drivers in the field. In a series with an already limited number of Nationwide teams, another one evaporates. Those owner points will probably go to someone. Odds are the candidate will probably be a cup driver. I think the potential of Annett and Turner Motorsports could be a good duo, however. 700. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.07.2012 - 5:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 700! Good riddance Rusty; now the guys don't have to watch what they say. 701. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.07.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not too sure if hiring Almirola for the #43 was the best move or not. I myself think he needed to show more in the #88 JRM Nationwide car before having a shot at a full-time Cup schedule, so I'm not exactly expecting anything special out of him this year. His one bright spot in Cup was that 4th place finish he had in this particular race in 2010 driving the #9, and that result made me look all the more forward to possibly seeing Aric get his first Nationwide win in 2011. But Aric didn't really come all that close to a win or the championship last year like I thought he would. I still hope he can make a decent career for himself, but as far as becoming a contending driver, I'm not seeing that happening. 702. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 01.07.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Poor David Ragan. Loses his 6 ride, "supposidly" signs an agreement to drive the 51 Chevy, then Kurt Busch is fired and all hell breaks loose. Ragan eventually loses out on the 22, 51, 43, and (NNS) 88. Oh, and TRG shuts down, so he loses out on the 71 too. As for Aric Almirola, people seem to focus on the bad results and not the good. He sucked at Ginn & DEI because he was a rookie. All rookies have their growing pains. He went to Billy Ballew Motorsports and in 2009 & 2010 and was consistently one of the top drivers in the truck series. 2011 was just a slump. Who knows what he could have done if he had a 2nd full season with his #88 team. Aric's biggest problem is that he's very passive and hardly aggressive. People just look at that and assume he won't amount to anything. But he's only had 35 career starts. Let's see how this season plays out before writing him off. 703. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.07.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I posted this on another forum, but it's worth repeating. A lot of the people that hate Steven Wallace are probably the same people who hate seeing cup drivers in the field. In a series with an already limited number of Nationwide teams, another one evaporates. Those owner points will probably go to someone. Odds are the candidate will probably be a cup driver. I think the potential of Annett and Turner Motorsports could be a good duo, however." Agree with this 100%. Steven Wallace WOULD already have a couple of wins if it weren't for Cup drivers. 704. ii posted: 01.07.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The manufacturer switch by Germain means Casey Mears will have driven for all four active manufacturers in Sprint Cup when he takes the green flag. Kasey Kahne was already on schedule to do that at Daytona as well, when he joins Hendrick." Robby Gordon did it in 4 years, from '06 to '09. He's run in different manufacturers every year since he started his own team. Unfortunately, he may shut his team down this year. "And Allmendinger, Almirola and Cole Whitt should send Kurt Busch belated Christmas cards for the gift he gave them by opening up all those opportunities with Meltdown 2.0." Especially Allmendinger. He stole Busch's ride because of his temper. I actually think Kyle got his temper from Kurt's. 705. Bronco posted: 01.08.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Robby Gordon did it in 4 years, from '06 to '09. He's run in different manufacturers every year since he started his own team. Unfortunately, he may shut his team down this year." David Gilliland, JJ Yeley, Mike Bliss, Dave Blaney, Bobby Labonte and Mike Skinner have all done that as well, in fact Bliss, Blaney, Labonte and Skinner have also driven for Pontiac in addition to the current 4 manufacturers. 706. Spen posted: 01.08.2012 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately, he may shut his team down this year." How many times has he said that now? I'll believe it when I see it. Bronco: We were specifically reffering to drivers who have run a full season with each manufacturer, not just a start or two. If you want to include starts in general, Kenny Schrader would also qualify for all five. But I'm pretty sure that only Bobby Labonte and Dave Blaney have run a full season with all five major manufacturers of the last 20 years. 707. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Steve ever came close to justifying keeping his place in that car. I know it wasn't a top flight NWide car, but he never improved all that much. He still was crashing way too much and never really contended for anything. Sure it was a big bump from his absolute embarrassing '06-'08 seasons where he proved there was no situation he couldn't crash in (including into a fence in the GARAGE AREA at Daytona), but he still was lagging way behind. In two straight years at IRP, he spun Trevor Bayne under caution, then got caught in a wreck half a lap ahead of him because he didn't slow down. If his Dad didn't own the team, he would have been long since fired. The problem now is that Steve is damaged goods. Instead of pulling Steve back down the ladder to get him the additional seasoning he desperately needed, Rusty kept him out there in NWide for the world to see. and it wasn't pretty. With good rides at an all time low and winning NWide drivers like Reed Sorenson and even winning Cup drivers like David Ragan without rides, he won't get anything beyond an NWide S&P car. And that's if any of them trust him to run 20 laps without crashing. Remember the Jennifer Jo Cobb blowup at the Spring Bristol race? The crux behind that deal was the owner had one car and didn't trust JJC to run without wrecking it. At the time most of us (including me) praised JJC for refusing to S&P, and grilled her owner. As it turns out he knew what he was doing, and I was dead wrong. Watching her run the slowest qualifying laps in Truck sessions, and still find some way to spin out, he was right for not trusting her. Although I feel there are better days ahead in the future, the fact is we still have some dark days ahead for NASCAR. We have the lowest number of quality rides available since the late 70s. What runed it around then was big money owners and big money sponsors getting involved. After a few transitional years of them finding the right drivers and streamlining their organizations, it led to the best era of NASCAR racing, the mid 80s through the mid 90s when progress was halted by even bigger money forcing many of the same people out of business. You had Harry Ranier come in, hire Waddell, struggle with Lennie Pond, then get Buddy Baker, followed by a one year stint with Bobby Allison, then part time with Cale, winning a bit, then getting Davey Allison, selling to Robert Yates, and launching a would be dynasty. You had the Gardners come in, struggle with Donnie Allison, start winning a lot with Darrell but being inconsistent, then finishing 2nd two years in a row with Bobby before winning it all. MC Anderson came in, won races with Benny, won races with Cale, but sold out to drag racer Raymond Beadle who eventually landed Rusty Wallace and a Winston Cup. And of course Rick Hendrick showed up in '84, landed big sponsors and good drivers, and eventually changed the course of NASCAR history. As did Jack Roush. What I'm saying is this is what NASCAR needs now. Problem is the price. It is too expensive to run out of pocket, and companies are reeling badly now so sponsorship is extremely difficult at the moment. The best thing to do is start off as a satellite team of an existing powerhouse, and build a relationship with them, and go from there. Smoke did this perfectly with SHR and HMS. Both Tony and Rick realized how mutually beneficial a relationship between the two would be. Basically making it a 6 car team. The result has been JJ hijacking the Cup in '10 from JGR (tried the satellite thing with HOF and failed miserably) and Smoke hijacking the Cup this year from Roush (who sees to it that his satellite teams RPM and the Woods are second tier at best, providing them very little). If JGR could ever figure it out and Jack would pull his head out of his ass we could see more quality rides open up. Of course we saw dumb decisions from new guys in the late 70s and 80s. You had Osterlund come in, hire Dave Marcis, do alright but nothing spectacular, then replace him with wild but talented rookie Dale Earnhardt who was anything but unspectacular, he won a lot, dented a lot of sheet metal, and ultimately won the Winston Cup in his second season. Of course Rod bailed halfway through the next season despite the appearance of big money sponsor Wrangler (instead of building a dynasty around Dale) and sell the team to JD Stacy. So Stacy has the defending Winston Cup champs, and a driver that had just turned 30 with a Cup under his belt already. JD smartly (and by "smartly" I mean "stupidly") dismantles the team and makes it clear to Dale that he is just another driver instead of building his franchise around him. Brilliant. He won a couple of road course races in that car with road master Tim Richmond. Dale would go on to win 6 more Winston Cups as Richard Childress would take Dale and big money sponsor Wrangler, and lay the foundation of a franchise with Dale as its clear centerpiece. Good job Rod and JD, you could have been the one at Dale's side for all those wins and championships. Instead you are footnotes at best. 708. cjs3872 posted: 01.08.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A few things about your last post. First, Harry Ranier originally came into NASCAR in the late 60s, as Gary Bettenhausen twice drove in the Daytona 500 for him back then. Then after nearly a decade, Ranier returned to the sport in 1977, but not with Lennie Pond, but rather with Jim Vandiver, with Ranier using Vandiver's familiar #31. Seeing that Vandiver wasn't getting the job done, Ranier then hired Lennie Pond, who was a solid driver, but nothing special. Sure he had some seconds and thirds on shorter tracks, five pole positions, as well as a fourth place finish in the 1976 Daytona 500, which is often overlooked, but Pond was a solid driver. And again, Ranier used the number that was synonymous with the driver, as he used Pond's #54 car in 1978. The irony was that Pond's greatest day, winning the fastest (174.7 MPH) and most competitive (68 lead changes) race of all time, the 1978 Talladega 500, came after he got word of his release from the team. Pond was solid, but when a driver like Buddy Baker came along, why wouldn't Ranier change to a driver of Baker's caliber. But they still struggled with reliability in 1979. That changed in 1980, but Ranier's constant changing of drivers didn't. Baker left after 1980, though he returned for the second half of the 1982 season. Bobby Allison joined the team for just one season, 1981, then Benny Parsons joined the team in 1982 and lasted just half a season before Baker's return. Not until Cale Yarborough joined Ranier in 1983 did Ranier have a driver that stayed with him long term. But Yarborough left after 1986 to form his own team, and Ranier hired Davey Allison in 1987 before leaving the sport himself for nearly a decade in 1988. But Ranier was always a great judge of talent. After all, it was Harry Ranier that first believed that Tony Stewart could get it done in NASCAR, even going so far as predicting that Stewart would win as many as 80 races in the Cup series. DiGard is much the same, though much shorter than the history of Harry Ranier. DiGard got of to rather ominous start, failing to even qualify for the first race they entered, the 1973 Daytona 500 with Donnie Allison. DiGard ran well with Donnie, but had some of the worst luck in the sport's history, especially in the 1974 Daytona 500, when they had a sure win taken from them, first when the caution came out when Bob Burcham's engine blew, then when Donnie ran over the debris from that blown engine. That was synonymous with the luck DiGard had with Donnie. In fact, when you talk to Donnie about never winning the Daytona 500, it's not the finish of the 1979 race he talks about, but rather it's what happened in 1974 that haunts him. But when Darrell Waltrip started outrunning DiGard in his own equipment, that's when Donnie got the boot, but for about three years, Waltrip's luck at DiGard was the same as Donnie's, mostly terrible. It wasn't until the latter part of 1977 that DiGard showed what they could really do, but when the threw away the championship in 1979, that was effectively the end of Darrell Waltrip with DiGard. After a fruitless year with Ricky Rudd in 1981, they hired Donnie's older brother Bobby for 1982, and they had about as different a start with Bobby as they could have gotten, compared to the start that Donnie had at DiGard. Bobby dominated the 1982 Daytona SpeedWeeks, including leading 148 laps in the 500, all without a rear bumper, but they had dominated the Busch Clash the week before with the rear bumper, so it likely wouldn't have mattered. In 1983, DiGard and Allison won their only title, but finincial troubles soon torpedoed DiGard. Ironically, in 1989 Bob Whitcomb rebuilt what was left of DiGard and in 1990, when Derrike Cope won the Daytona 500, it was with what was left of DiGard, including ex-DiGard crew chief Buddy Parrott, and the car #10, with which Greg Sacks had scored DiGard's final win in the 1985 Firecracker 400, also at Daytona. Now the Rod Osterlund and Jim Stacy story had numerous layers to it. First, both got into the sport by purchasing existing teams. Stacy bought Nord Krasukopf's team in the midle of 1977, while Osterlund bought Roger Penske's team at the end of 1977. When Stacy ran into money troubles late in 1978, he lent his team, including driver Neil Bonnett and sponsor Armor All, to Osterlund, who also ran Stacy's #5. From 1979-early '81, Stacy was effectively out of the sport, except for trying to qualify for the Daytona 500 in 1980 and '81 after Bonnett left Stacy when the #21 Wood Brothers' car opened up (back when it was a top-tier car). But when Osterlund either ran into money trouble or simply tired of the sport, having won it's biggest prize in just his third year, which was unheard of back then, he sold his team to Stacy, effectively repaying the favor to Stacy. But Stacy did not like Dale Earnhardt, so after some clashes, Earnhardt left and was replaced by Joe Ruttman, who was replaced in 1982 by Tim Richmond. Now unlike Earnhardt, Stacy did get along with Richmond, but as had been the case with Neil Bonnett when the Wood Brothers' car opened up in 1979, when the #27 car, which was going through an ownership change itself from M.C. Anderson to Raymond Beadle, opened up after the 1982 season, Richmond left and was replaced by Mark Martin. Stacy released Martin about a third of the way through the 1983 season, Stacy released Martin, not because he didn't think Martin was that good, but rather because he didn't think Martin could physically hold up, and replaced him with Morgan Shepherd. Stacy left the sport for good after the 1983 season, selling his team to Robert Harrington, who put it mothballs after failing to qualify for the 1984 Daytona 500 with reigning Indianapolis 500 champion Tom Sneva, who had also failed to qualify for the 1980 Daytona 500 driving for Stacy. In 1989, Osterlund returned but found NASCAR a totally different sport than it was when he left in 1981. And with drivers such as Hut Stricklin, Jimmy Spencer (who drove as aggressively as Dale Earnhardt did, but didn't have the overall ability that Earnhardt did), and even Buddy Baker, Osterlund's return was a complete and utter disaster, and left the sport for good not long after the 1991 Daytona 500. And by the way DSFF, Jim Stacy and J.D. Stacy is one and the same person. You call him J.D. Stacy, while I call him Jim Stacy. We can, however agree that, among car owners, that he may have been the biggest fraud in the sport's history. And the groundwork for championship team that Osterlund had with Dale Earnhardt in 1980 had been laid out by Roger Penske throughout the 1970s. All Osterlund needed was an aggressive driver and a copmetitive car (which Penske frequently lacked, as he ran AMC Matadors for most of his first stint in NASCAR). Osterlund got both by 1979 and was rewarded with a title in 1980. 709. Bronco posted: 01.08.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What I'm not looking forward to are the telecasts. Between Carl "I want to be a TV star" in the booth and the fact it will be the Danica Show, it should be grating." What is wrong with Carl in the booth? He is far more articulate and well spoken than any other driver featured on TV. He is objective with his opinions, unlike the Waltrips, he doesn't think everything is incredible (Kyle Petty), and he doesn't overuse certain words (Wallace/Jarrett). Speaking of telecasts, the decision to promote Michael Waltrip to the TV booth despite still being a part time driver and a Cup owner has got to be one of the worst moves ever. Jeff Hammond deserves better. 710. 18fan posted: 01.08.2012 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I dislike Michael Waltrip and having to hear him self promote and drop in stupid sponsor plugs. It is going to be almost unbearable to have Darrell and Michael together on the FOX pre-race show. Thankfully I never watch it anyway. However, I believe ESPN putting Brad Daugherty in their studio was worse than FOX with Michael into their studio and pre-race, but it's not much worse. 711. LordLowe posted: 01.08.2012 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF If someone told you to take on Ricky Rudd in a one on one fight would you accept the challenge. 712. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell no I wouldn't fight Rudd. I always wished they would have let Harvick get to Rudd at Richmoond in '03. He would have messed Harvick up bad. And that would have been great. 713. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.08.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Actually i think Rickys CC would have f****d Harvick up for Ricky. Pat Tryson was mad something fierce. 714. LordLowe posted: 01.08.2012 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At DSFF: I just thought that you would have wanted to avenge what happened at North Wilkesboro in 1989 by putting Rudd in the Stone Cold Stunner 715. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nah. Dale beat Ricky for the 1991 Winston Cup. Sure it was one of the lamest points battles ever, but he got him back. 716. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.08.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hell no I wouldn't fight Rudd. I always wished they would have let Harvick get to Rudd at Richmoond in '03. He would have messed Harvick up bad. And that would have been great." I agree, and Harvick would have deserved it for making such a big scene on pit road AND damaging Ricky's car (both with his car, then he gets out to stomp on the hood. How childish is that?!). 717. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's the John Fox us Panthers fans remember: waasting time outs by making stupid challenges. When he won that first challenge I suspected the challenge flag must have just fallen out of his pocket. I think I was right. 718. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) More vintage John Fox, you are going against a QB that can't move and he only rushes 3 people. Brilliant. 719. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.08.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tebowed! 720. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tebow!!!! 721. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.08.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I might as well jump in: TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 722. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.08.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats Denver, I told my friends watching the game just before the coin toss that whoever wins the toss will score on the first play... too bad no money was offered. Still, I think Baltimore and New England get to the AFC Championship game, but if the defense can sack Brady like Ben, then I give Denver an even chance. All together now... TEBOW! 723. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.09.2012 - 12:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JGR announced Mark Martin will drive the #18 Interstate Batteries Toyota in the Nationwide Series race at Las Vegas in March. In addition, the reality of running more races with Mark and JGR in the Nationwide Series are in the works, pending additional sponsorship. 724. Scott B posted: 01.09.2012 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The flipside of the coin for drivers & manufacturers... here's some of the longer streaks that are intact: Jeff Gordon 653, Chevy (though he was a Ford development project for Bill Davis) Matt Kenseth 436, Ford Dale Earnhardt Jr 435, Chevy Kevin Harvick 394, Chevy Jimmie Johnson 363, Chevy Greg Biffle 330, Ford Carl Edwards 265, Ford Denny Hamlin 223, Toyota With the exception of Junebug, those are all with a single owner, also. 725. 18fan posted: 01.09.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 79 of Denny Hamlin's 223 career starts came in a Chevrolet. He has driven for Joe Gibbs Racing his whole career, however. Also, Jason Leffler will drive Kyle Busch Motorsports' #18 truck in at least 14 of the 22 races next year. Dollar General is sponsoring 14 races and KBM is looking for additional sponsorship for the other 8 races on the schedule. KBM is also trying to find a way to run at least a partial schedule with German Quiroga. According to KBM's general manager Rick Ren, NASCAR has approved Quiroga to run Daytona and KBM is going to try to make that happen. 726. ii posted: 01.09.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Unfortunately, he may shut his team down this year." How many times has he said that now? I'll believe it when I see it." Yeah, kinda like Brett Favre when he said he'd retire for a few years. He finally did it, and I think that Robby will shut down this year. "What I'm not looking forward to are the telecasts. Between Carl "I want to be a TV star" in the booth and the fact it will be the Danica Show, it should be grating." I agree somewhat. It's one thing when you join the booth for awhile during a rain delay or a red flag, but every time you DNF or before a race? Come on. It's almost as bad as drivers having to recite their sponsors for thanks. It's annoying as hell and takes the joy out of racing. "Congrats Denver, I told my friends watching the game just before the coin toss that whoever wins the toss will score on the first play... too bad no money was offered. Still, I think Baltimore and New England get to the AFC Championship game, but if the defense can sack Brady like Ben, then I give Denver an even chance. All together now... TEBOW! " Yeah, they beat the Steelers at home, but they can't come close to the Pats at Gillette Stadium. It's one of the toughest home fields in the league, and Tebow's running abilities weren't able to surpass the Pat's horrid D. Baltimore and NE in the AFC, and then the Pack and the Saints in the NFC. No doubt. Then, it's the Pats and the Packers. Then (although I'm a Patriots fan) Green Bay wins again. Tebow sucks. Period. "Speaking of telecasts, the decision to promote Michael Waltrip to the TV booth despite still being a part time driver and a Cup owner has got to be one of the worst moves ever. Jeff Hammond deserves better." And Mikey was sort of a fill-in Busch suck-up for the SPEED commentary. Why can't he race more than the 500? There would be less start-and-parks... "What I'm saying is this is what NASCAR needs now. Problem is the price. It is too expensive to run out of pocket, and companies are reeling badly now so sponsorship is extremely difficult at the moment. The best thing to do is start off as a satellite team of an existing powerhouse, and build a relationship with them, and go from there. Smoke did this perfectly with SHR and HMS. Both Tony and Rick realized how mutually beneficial a relationship between the two would be. Basically making it a 6 car team. The result has been JJ hijacking the Cup in '10 from JGR (tried the satellite thing with HOF and failed miserably) and Smoke hijacking the Cup this year from Roush (who sees to it that his satellite teams RPM and the Woods are second tier at best, providing them very little). If JGR could ever figure it out and Jack would pull his head out of his ass we could see more quality rides open up." The main problem now is the terrible economy. That (and the fact that sponsors don't look for newbies, and Bill France starting the Fortune 500 bull) is the reason why there are no rookies in Cup anymore. And that's why all of the new teams are just field-fillers. 727. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.09.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Oklahoma State on winning the National Championship. 728. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.10.2012 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know what's worse, Dale Earnhardt Jr. getting kidnapped by aliens after winning at Michigan in June '08 or the LSU Tigers spacing out throughout the entire 2012 BCS National Championship Game. What a listless, half-a**ed, spiritless, etc. (whatever adjective inserted) performance to describe that mess in New Orleans. Sadly 1995 Subaru WRX STi, I believe Oklahoma State would have put up some points against Alabama, hell Georgia Southern put up 300 yards and 20 points on the Tide. 729. cjs3872 posted: 01.10.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, a few things about your last post. First, if you want to watch what a racing telecast should look and sound like, there are many old races from the 70s, 80s, and early and mid 90s on YouTube, including the 1973 Indianapolis 500 and the 1984 Daytona 500 I've uploaded there. Racing telecasts started going downhill in the mid 90s when guys like Dick Berggren, who knows very little about the ins-and-outs of a car or race strategy, was put in the booth as an analyst. Berggren knows an extreme amount about the sport, that we can all agree with, but he knows very little about the cars themselves or race strategy. AS for the lack of new teams entering the sport. Yes, you're accurate about the sagging economy, but even if the economy and sponsorship was there, they still would never go with a new team, or make a part-time team like the Wood Brothers into a competitve full-time team for one very big reason that everyone sems to be missing. And that's the 35/8 rule that guarantees the top 35 in owner points into every race, leaving just eight spots, or about 18.6 % of the field open to those not in the top 35, and that number goes down even more to seven spots, or 16.28% the field open if there's a past champion not yet exempt that's qualified for the champion's provisional. No sponsor in their right mind is willing to take that chance, even in a good economy, much les a bad economy. Now I agree that the top teams need to be guaranted spots in the field, but 35 out of 43 is far too many. Now 25 out of 43? I can accept that, because that locks the top teams and drivers in, while leaving nearly half the field for non-exempt teams and drivers. But the rule the way it is now almost guarantees that nobody new is going to enter the sport, nor is any existing team going to expand without purchasing points to guarantee themselves in the first five races, including the Daytona 500. That's not going to change any time soon, even if the economy and sponsorship situation vastly improves, because the sponsors will just go to the well-established teams and not risk not being in the race, which will still leave smaller teams, as well as new ones wanting to enter the sport high and dry. 730. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.10.2012 - 4:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How can you tell me with a straight face that Alabama and LSU are the two best teams in college football when they were on upset alert every game they played all season and when their head-to-head meetings were the two suckiest, most pathetic games of the whole season across every NCAA division? I'll second it: congrats Oklahoma State. 731. Scott B posted: 01.10.2012 - 10:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #725, You are correct 18fan, I didn't remember Hamlin being with Gibbs when they were still a Chevy team. So that leaves only 7 with strings of 200-plus races with the same manufacturer. It's actually quite remarkable to have that many drivers with streaks that long, I don't remember a time in NASCAR's past when that would have happened, and it may be less common in the near future because of the number of young prospect who are being released by the organizations that helped bring them along. Brad Keselowski, Regan Smith, Cole Whitt, Landon Cassill and Aric Almirola have already bounced around. On top of that, Trevor Bayne and Ricky Stenhouse Jr are both at risk for changing organizations if Roush can't find funded, full-time seats. There won't be a lot of drivers left that start off their careers with a stable ride for the first few seasons. 732. cjs3872 posted: 01.10.2012 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Scott B, a big problem with these younger drivers coming up, as I mentioned in post 729, is the fact that no new team in their right mind is going to enter the sport, nor is an existing team that can expand, going to, as long as just seven or eight spots in a given race out of 43 going to be available, because there isn't the sponsorship available, because no sponsor in their right mind is going to sponsor a non-exempt team, as long as less than 20% of the starting field is available to teams not in the top 35 in points at the Cup level. The only way a new team will enter the sport, or the only way an existing one will expand, is if they purchase points from a team that's in the top 35 in points that leaves the sport, leaving that position in the field available for purchase. In other words, the number of quality teams and drivers in NASCAR are only going to decrease until the number of guaranteed spots in the field also decrease. Again, I think 25 is a perfect number of guaranted spots in a 43-car field, because that still leaves the top teams guaranteed to make the race, while at the same time, leaving nearly half the spots in the field open for non-exempt cars. This is why I also think the field for races like the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 should be expanded to 50 cars to let possible one-offs more opportunities to make the field, especially one-offs for top drivers from other disciplines of the sport, or for drivers from lower series compete in the biggest races. And a good outing by such a team might open the door in the future. By making 35 of the 43 spots locked in, NASCAR has limited the opportunites for new teams and drivers alike to enter the Cup series. It's easier for new teams and drivers to enter the Nationwide Series, where 13 spots are available for non-exempt teams, instead of just eight. NASCAR needs to limit the number of cars exempt for a race to no more than 30, but preferrably limit it to just 25. 733. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.10.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Bama and LSU are the best, just ask ESPN! The worldwide leader in sports (exempting NASCAR and other non-stick and ball sports) knows all. In all honesty, without a playoff or a plus one system to keep them honest, who really knows who is the number one team. I give the NASCAR sanctioning body credit for revamping the point system before 2011 to at least keep the competition honest, that is more than many fans can say for the BCS. 734. cjs3872 posted: 01.10.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except Jarrett88fan, that the Chase has devalued not only the championship, but all the big races. In fact, it can even be argued that the Chase has devalued EACH of the first 26 races. And changing the point system the way NASCAR did prior to the 2011 season has also devalued each of the top finishing positions, other than first, by making it so that it's not worth it to try to go from fourth to third, or from third to second. I know that if I was a car owner, and my driver was in fourth or fifth place, I'd tell him to stay right there and protect the points and not risk losing those points just to gain one more point, because it simply isn't worth it. The plain truth is that the changing of the point system was one thing that led to the decreased level of competition late in races, because the drivers, rightfully so, were not willing to risk their position and points just to go after one meaningless position, because they would gain only one more point if they took it. Some of the teams that gambled to try to win a race, like Regan Smith's and Paul Menard's teams also knew this, so they rolled the dice, knowing that the top teams would not take the gamble, because they stood to lose much more than they could have possibly gained. I don't like the college football system to determine a champion, either, but at least every game matters, and this is true in the NFL as well. Just like every race should matter in terms of determining a champion, but it clearly doesn't. The first 26 races are totally meaningless as far as determining a champion goes. That means the really versatile drivers and teams, such as Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart, for example, don't have the advantage of being excellent at all kinds of tracks like they used to, because that doesn't matter any more. The only thing that really matters in terms of deciding a champion is how you do at the 1.5 mile tracks, and avoiding the messes at Talladega. If you can do those two things well, you'll contend for the title, no matter what you do in the other races, such as Dover, Loudon, and Martinsville, unless you fail to finish at those events. 735. Scott B posted: 01.10.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, 100% agreed on the 35 locked-in starters being excessive. I said exactly the same thing when it first came out, 25 would be ideal. If you want to cushion the effect, roll it back to 30 for one season then to 25. Other than the number of lock-ins being set to high, I'm OK with the rule. With one round of qualifying, it's reasonable to have some kind of safety net for good cars (capable of winning a race) that have a problem. Points positions #26-35 are rarely going to produce a race winner, though. 736. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.10.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chase is still better then the BCS because its decided on the field of play not by some ****ing computer formula and bias voters. LSU playing like a little league team. That was pathetic. Alabama shouldn't have been there in the first place because WHO beat them at home in match #1? Even if a playoff is born out of this craptasouler system if it still the "BCS" label it will still suck monkey water. 8 team playoff, RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From each conference in D1 football. Oh and for those who live under rocks NASCAR pre-season testing is on SPEED channel at 4pm. 737. cjs3872 posted: 01.10.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my view, saying the Chase is better than the BCS os like going from the sewer (the BCS) up to the toilet (the Chase). Neither is any good at all, though I agree that the Chase may be better, it's only marginally better, because with the Chase, you rarely have gotten a true champion for the entire season, and you didn't get one for 2011, either. That's because the marquee events mean nothing in terms of the championship (except for possibly the Coca- Cola 600), nor does versatility, because the races that demonstrate that are meaningless when it comes to winning the title, because the three things you have to do are perform at the 1.5 mile tracks, stay out of the Talladega messes, and not fall out of any races. Nothing else matters. As for the top-35 rule, the race that brought that on was an extreme anomaly. It was the fall race at Atlanta in 2004. What happened was that several teams in the Chase (2004 was the first year of the Chase) entered extra cars for that event, solely to protect their drivers in the Chase, but they wound up knocking out well-funded cars that were in the top 25 in points, including Bill Davis' #22 car, if I remember right. So, in one of their typical knee-jerk reactions, NASCAR created the top-35 rule, which has basically froze teams that were not in the series, out of the series. And with teams like the Wood Brothers no longer fielding a full-time entry, and several teams having to contract, or get out entirely, it's led to a dearth of quality teams in the sport, hence the boom in the start-and-park phenomenon, which could result in double-digit start-and-parks in some races next year. 738. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2012 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "8 team playoff, RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From each conference in D1 football." Agree with the 8 team playoff system, but no automatic qualifiers from conferences. Take for example the ACC. I live smack dab in the middle of ACC country, and I keep up with it very closely. Hell, my job even sees me working at some Wake Forest football games in their medical facilites treating injured, sick, or drunk (usually drunk) fans. There is no way in hell any ACC football team deserved to be in a BC$ bowl game, as Clemson proved. Trust me, Clemson was definitely the best ACC team this year. They coughed up 70 points to the Big East champs (who got the shit kicked out of them in Morgantown by LSU, who made it past midfield ONCE in the BC$ title game). What was the ACC's final bowl record? 1-8 if I'm not mistaken. And that one win was by NC State in essentially a home game in Charlotte (Raleigh is about 2 and 1/2 hours away). Besides, that fact that the ACC still allows dook to play football in their conference should automatically disqualify them from anything worth a shit anyways! "don't like the college football system to determine a champion, either, but at least every game matters" Except for the regular season LSU-Bama game which should have eliminated Bama from the national title game. Instead they got a rematch which is insane (although, to their credit, when given a second chance, they locked up LSU's offense and chanied them into a box like they were the Gimp in Pulp Fiction). 739. ii posted: 01.11.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Again, I think 25 is a perfect number of guaranted spots in a 43-car field, because that still leaves the top teams guaranteed to make the race, while at the same time, leaving nearly half the spots in the field open for non-exempt cars. This is why I also think the field for races like the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 should be expanded to 50 cars to let possible one-offs more opportunities to make the field, especially one-offs for top drivers from other disciplines of the sport, or for drivers from lower series compete in the biggest races. And a good outing by such a team might open the door in the future. By making 35 of the 43 spots locked in, NASCAR has limited the opportunites for new teams and drivers alike to enter the Cup series. It's easier for new teams and drivers to enter the Nationwide Series, where 13 spots are available for non-exempt teams, instead of just eight. NASCAR needs to limit the number of cars exempt for a race to no more than 30, but preferrably limit it to just 25." I don't just think that it should be 25, but inside the top 20. Those are the only ones eligible for the Chase, especially because of the wild card. It makes sense if you think about it. As for adding cars to the field...the Brickyard 400 usually doesn't get more than 46-47 entries. That would mean that everyone makes the field. It would be just fine for the 500, though. 740. Spen posted: 01.11.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That would mean that everyone makes the field." Of course, if there were more available spots, more cars would attemt, and we'd probably have roughly 55 or so cars attempting, so they'll still be a few missing the show. 741. Scott B posted: 01.12.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It would be great if the Daytona 500 qualifying races had more spots up for grabs. Those used to be one of my favorite events of the season to watch. 742. Anonymous posted: 01.13.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh no! It is day 1 of testing, and already the only thing that ESPN cares about is the hooker. Question: Why do media make a big stink about her? Is it cause she is a hooker? I am trying to be serious here, but what (beyond the freak win), has Danica done that Sarah Fisher couldn't do better? Heck, there are completely ignored female drivers that have won the 12 Hours of Sebring and the Petit Le Mans, and the only that gets made a big stink about is Vanina Ickx (because she is Jacky Ickx's daughter). I honestly don't get it, but the IndyCar drivers were glad to get rid of here because they her as an attention hog 1st, driver 2nd. Which leads to a second a question to be answered: Is it possible that racing series are getting so many hacks in their ranks because of drivers who are racing to get rich quick? I can make more sense of Calculus 3 than I can the sports world right now. 743. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.13.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, that last comment was me. Forgot the name. 744. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.13.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NBR you must have something against women if you call one of them a hooker. Very mature. No engines have blown up (yet). But once again they listen to the "fans" and ruin/change something that wasn't broken. Now "fans" are going to get their pack racing and with that your going to get 20+ car pileups and wrecks which is what "fans" want to see. Good Job NASCAR.................-_________________- 745. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no really good answer for plate racing and it's debate "to pack or not to pack". I am not a huge fan of the huge packs OR the Noah's Ark style of racing. Each has its own downside. But if put on the spot, I'd pick pack racing with only occasional bump drafting (see the '09 Keselowski race at Dega). I don't mean to down play the big 20 car pile ups at plate tracks. They are terrifying, and no matter how much safety improves, they always cause a sick feeling in my gut until I see every driver involved walking away. But, from a viewer's perspective, I'd take one 15-20 crash (as well as the obligatory 3 or 4 other cautions) over 10 two car wrecks like the 2x2 racing seems to invite. Those make the race take forever. The Daytona 500 last year took almost 4 hours. I don't mind 4 hour races as long as it is mostly racing. But so much of the plate races last year were under caution. To me, pack racing is the lesser of two evils. 746. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing seems to be for sure. With NASCAR allowing these higher speeds (I believe Jeff Gordon turned a solo lap faster than 196 during this test, and 206 has been seen in tandem drafting), you must wonder if they think it's time for Buddy Baker's 32-year old Daytona 500 record of 177.602 MPH, which was a world record when it was set, and 16.051 MPH faster than the previous record (A.J. Foyt had the Daytona 500 record before Baker at 161.551 MPH in 1972), to be broken, because we may see the fastest racing ever at Daytona. If you think last year's racing was fast, if no rules are changed, we could see lap speeds in the Shootout approach 210 MPH, with an outside possibility of a 200 MPH pole position, if things remain the same, as far as the rules are concerned. By the way, there hasn't been a 155+ MPH Daytona 500 since the 2001 race, when Michael Waltrip won at an average of over 163 MPH, so the law of averages say that it's about time that a fast Daytona 500 showed up, anyway. And actually, some of the faster Daytona 500s have come in the modern restrictor plate era. Dale Earnhardt's 1998 victory is the third fastest in race history, at 172.712 MPH, and Derrike Cope's 1990 victory is the sixth-fastest in history, while Jeff Gordon's 1999 victory matched A.J. Foyt's 1972 speed as the eighth-fastest in race history. In 1992, Davey Allison also won at over 160 MPH, but there have been only two 150 MPH+ Daytona 500s since Michael Waltrip's thrilling, but tragic 2001 victory, and none clocked at over 155. That was Dale Earnhardt, Jr.' 2004 win and Ryan Newman's 2008 win, the only Daytona 500 since the GWC was instituted to go EXACTLY 500 miles. Based on that, a fast, but safe Daytona 500 is bound to show up sometime. Remember that 1980, when the existing records for both the Daytona 500 and Firecracker 400 were set, was the second year after the last repaving, and 2012 is the second year for the new pavement, so it would be ironic if at least one of those records weren't reset this year. Somehow, I think this upcoming Daytona 500 will be a safe race with few caution periods. I hope I'm right with this prediction. Whether or not Baker's record is threatened will, of course, depend on the number of caution flags. Remember that another factor in why Baker's record has lasted so long has to do with, not only the slopwer on-track racing speeds, but also the fact that in 1980, there was no pit road speed limit, and they even ran faster under caution back then than they do now. The caution laps when Baker set the record were run at about 90-100 MPH, where it's about 55-65 today. This factor is why Earnhardt's 1998 race did not break Baker's record, as there were only three cautions for nine laps in that 1998 race (as well as the 1990 race), while there were five cautions (three practically in a row) for 15 laps in Baker's 1980 win. Ironically, both Baker's 1980 and Earnhardt's 1998 wins had something else in comon you won't see if the race goes exactly 500 miles, and that is the fact both the 1980 and 1998 races finished under caution. 747. Spen posted: 01.13.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see this being a low-caution race. Blown engines alone will cause at least five. 748. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.13.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 13 gallon fuel cells: failed to break up packs. That right there is "artifcally" breaking up packs, even tho it failed. Now NASCAR is tweaking some much stuff, it "artifaclly" bring packs back in which "fans" didn't like. So i don't know what to think anymore. AJA said they can 2 car draft 1 lap if you don't duck out, 3-5 laps with ducking out. The rule of unintended results is getting higher and higher the more NASCAR screws with stuff. 749. LordLowe posted: 01.13.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have A question For DSFF Why do you think Gordon was able to beat Earnhardt for the title in 1995. 750. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, we'll; know by what the Shootout and qualifying races wind up being, in terms of engines, how hard they'll be able to turn them, how long they'll be able to push, etc. Remember that the Firecracker 400 this past July was coming close to record speeds until the usual rash of acctidents late, because they had two sets of green flag pit stops. It will be very interesting to see what the mileage will be during the prelimiary races with the fuel injection, because we have no idea what the fuel mileage will end up being, and the first test may be in the Shootout. One thing. If there are green flag pit stops in the 500, there will be no repeat of last year's finish, with the smaller teams running with, and beating the top teams, because the smaller teams will lack the ability to have fast pit stops, and that may keep drivers like Kurt Busch from having a chance to win. After all, slow pit stop kept Landon Cassill from having a chance to win the Firecracker, as he had as good a car as anyone, but had a skeleton pit crew, which knocked him several second back. If there are green flag pit stops, only the top teams will be able to contend. 751. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 24 was simply better than the 3 in '95. That was the first year of the new Monte Carlo and HMS nailed it. RCR did pretty good, but in all honesty that was a big transitionaal year. The big money, multi car teams would take over from that point forward as HMS and Roush established themselves as head and shoulders above the rest.. engineering became paramount, and HMS was at the head of that curve with Jeff beginning an eye popping run of dominance and Terry Labonte would put up the best numbers of his career. It was the start of an HMS dynasty that would see their engines and chassis claim 11 of the last 17 Cup championships. Meanwhile, '95 marked the last year of RCR's run at the top. They gradually fell behind in technology, as evidenced by how poorly prepared they were for NASCAR' infamous "5 and 5" rules. Throw in Dale's injuries beginning with his bone crunching wreck at Dega in Moy!"$ 752. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2012 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, my phone became possed for a moment. Anyways, thanks to the '96 Dega wreck and rule changes, it killed Dale's '97-'99. A lot like Gordon from '08-'10. Injuries and a rules package he had trouble adapting to. Unfortunately that opened the insane "Jeff is better than Dale" argument because Dale won 11 races from '95-'99 while Jeff won 47. Not a fair comparison. From '07-'11 JJ won 32 races to Jeff's 10: 8# JJ 3 times better than Jeff? Of course not. Anyways, 1995 was Jeff's year as he had a career high in laps led and poles. If he had more experience, he would have won more races (Pocono immediately comes to mind). 753. ii posted: 01.13.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One thing seems to be for sure. With NASCAR allowing these higher speeds (I believe Jeff Gordon turned a solo lap faster than 196 during this test, and 206 has been seen in tandem drafting), you must wonder if they think it's time for Buddy Baker's 32-year old Daytona 500 record of 177.602 MPH, which was a world record when it was set, and 16.051 MPH faster than the previous record (A.J. Foyt had the Daytona 500 record before Baker at 161.551 MPH in 1972), to be broken, because we may see the fastest racing ever at Daytona. If you think last year's racing was fast, if no rules are changed, we could see lap speeds in the Shootout approach 210 MPH, with an outside possibility of a 200 MPH pole position, if things remain the same, as far as the rules are concerned." And next thing we know, A.J. Allmendinger blows a tire, goes airborne, and hits the catch fence. No one injured. Red flag for 2 hours. That would be scary, since Allison crashed when he was in the 22. "Somehow, I think this upcoming Daytona 500 will be a safe race with few caution periods. I hope I'm right with this prediction. Whether or not Baker's record is threatened will, of course, depend on the number of caution flags. Remember that another factor in why Baker's record has lasted so long has to do with, not only the slopwer on-track racing speeds, but also the fact that in 1980, there was no pit road speed limit, and they even ran faster under caution back then than they do now. The caution laps when Baker set the record were run at about 90-100 MPH, where it's about 55-65 today." Few caution periods? With the new pavement on Daytona, there will definitely be a lot of cautions. You'd be pressing your luck if you hoped that this would happen. So, in that case, Baker's record won't be broken. "I don't see this being a low-caution race. Blown engines alone will cause at least five." With the possibility of smaller radiatiors (according to 1995 Subaru WRX STi), that could happen. And the cars flying everywhere. More of a demolition derby than a big race. "It will be very interesting to see what the mileage will be during the prelimiary races with the fuel injection, because we have no idea what the fuel mileage will end up being, and the first test may be in the Shootout." I'm not happy with this fuel injection crap. Toyota Hybrids are already the chosen pace car...let's not un-American NASCAR and move to Japan, that would suck. Next thing you know, we're gonna have charging stations instead of fuel cans by the pit box. cjs3872, no one calls it the Firecracker anymore. Wake up from under your rock. It's 2012. Tomorrow's Broncos-Pats game will be a blowout. Patriots 45, Broncos 21. Sure, Tebow may get a few TD's, but Brady has been unstoppable as of late, especially in the 2nd half. Tebow got lucky last weekend, but he's no match in Foxboro tomorrow. No more Tebowing. 754. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.13.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm not happy with this fuel injection crap." And then four sentences later: "Wake up from under your rock. It's 2012." Haha 755. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.13.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the Bud shootout is an utter bore then the 500 will be much worse. I honestly hope i'm wrong but in a 20 car pack the only cars i saw passing people were the JGR bunch during when NASCAR made them be a pack. #51 and #78 are the fastest 2 car draft. "Tomorrow's Broncos-Pats game will be a blowout. Patriots 45, Broncos 21. Sure, Tebow may get a few TD's, but Brady has been unstoppable as of late, especially in the 2nd half. Tebow got lucky last weekend, but he's no match in Foxboro tomorrow. No more Tebowing." Well duh they are going to lose. btw i know when the 500 gets to around half way i'm will to bet the "boring" complaints will start. Book it. 756. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, I will ALWAYS refer to the July race at Daytona as the Firecracker 400, no matter what sponsor puts its name on the race, or what it's officially called. The same is true with the Brickyard 400 and the Southern 500, which has been sponsored since the late 1980s and didn't even have that name (officially) for four years. Even the Daytona 500 had sponsorship from 1991-'93, though the sponsor's name in that case was after the race's name, the race was officially sponsored. As for it not being a wreck-filled race. I watched the 1981 Daytona 500 today, and that race was predicted to be a crash-filled disaster, but it ran with virtually no accidents, and was not only tied for being the second-most competitve when it was run (only the 1974 race was more competitve at that time) with 48 lead changes, but was the second-fastest Daytona 500 ever run to that time, behind the one just the year before. And it's still the fifth-fastest Daytona 500 run to this day. That '81 Daytona 500 had only four caution flags, all for minor incidents, and all in the first half of the race. The entire second half of that race ran caution-free, something that's happened only one other time since 1964, and that was in 2004. Actually, there have been many big races that have had a lot of fear about it being a disaster wind up actually being very safe races. One such case was the 1982 Indianapolis 500, which is, to this day, probably the greatest Indy 500, start to finish, ever run. Also, 1995 Subaru WRX STi, one reason NASCAR tried the 13-galon fuel cells was that the cars were going so far on a tank of fuel. In fact, they were going so far that Roush believed he could run a full 500-mile race with the old 22-gallon cell on just two pit stops, as they were geting close to 70 laps/175 miles on a single tank of gas. Sure, they needed to break up the packs, which the two-car drafts last year did a pretty good job of, if you ask me, but the amount of distance they were getting on a tank of fuel was getting ridiculous. While I think they should make it so that you have to go 90-100 miles on a tank of fuel at the unrestricted tracks for tire conservation reasons, I think they should make it to where you can't go any further than 100 mikes with ease, making it a four pit stop race if it goes green the entire distance, though someone will try to get 50 laps/125 miles per tank to make it a three-stop race to try to save a lap in the pits. After all, fuel mileage has made the difference in some of the most memorable Daytona 500s ever run, like Tiny Lund's 1963 win with the Wood Brothers, who got a little assistance from Mother Nature that day, Geoff Bodine's 1986 win, which put Hendrick Motorsports on the map, and Darrell Waltrip's 1989 win, which served as the beginning of the cap to his career. Fuel mileage even played a role in Richard Petty's 1971 and 1981 wins, Sterling Marlin's 1994 win, and Fred Lorenzen's 1965 win, though it hasn't been a real factor in the Daytona 500 since 1994. So as I mentioned that it's about time for a fast Daytona 500 without many cautions to show up, as it's been 11 years since there's been a Daytona 500 with a winning average speed of over 155 MPH, it's also long overdue for the Daytona 500 to be, as the very least, influenced, if not decided, by fuel mileage, since it's been 18 years since fuel mileage has played an important role in the Daytona 500. 757. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.13.2012 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) More changes after today, even SMALLER grill openings and a 21 PSI release valve. I'm about to have a stroke. Keep screwing with it NASCAR, just keep doing it. 758. ii posted: 01.14.2012 - 10:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for it not being a wreck-filled race. I watched the 1981 Daytona 500 today, and that race was predicted to be a crash-filled disaster, but it ran with virtually no accidents, and was not only tied for being the second-most competitve when it was run (only the 1974 race was more competitve at that time) with 48 lead changes, but was the second-fastest Daytona 500 ever run to that time, behind the one just the year before. And it's still the fifth-fastest Daytona 500 run to this day. That '81 Daytona 500 had only four caution flags, all for minor incidents, and all in the first half of the race. The entire second half of that race ran caution-free, something that's happened only one other time since 1964, and that was in 2004." For the past few years, the last 20-30 laps of the 500 have been hectic. There have been many crashes and GWC's, including 3 in 2010 and 2 last year. This part of the race would slow the race down. "More changes after today, even SMALLER grill openings and a 21 PSI release valve. I'm about to have a stroke. Keep screwing with it NASCAR, just keep doing it." Yeah, it's gonna ruin the 500. At least we have a Bud Shootout so that we could tell in race trim how well the cars run. Hopefully, NASCAR looks at the Shootout and makes revisions that won't destroy the 500. 759. LordLowe posted: 01.14.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone here thinks that after failing to win the championship in 2005, 2008, and 2011 Edwards will go winless this season like he did in 2006 & 2009, Because if you notice the pattern here the season after he contends for the title Edwards fails to win a single race. 760. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.14.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now that was a fun game to watch. 761. Anonymous posted: 01.15.2012 - 4:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) We now know that God doesn't give a hoot about football. ;) 762. ii posted: 01.15.2012 - 8:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) He did last week...maybe God went to bed. Or he supports the Patriots more. 763. Smiff_99 posted: 01.15.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) orrrrrrr Tom Brady is insane and Gronkowski is a beast? 764. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.15.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ that would be the case but lets not stop a good bashing. In another news, NASCAR raise the PSI release valve from 21 to 25 PSI. The cars were blowing water out just sitting idle. If the above sentence is any indicator of how stupid and useless this process of stopping the 2 car draft is then i don't know what else to think. here is a thing to think about, what if the 500 or the shootout for that matter is an 80 degree day? With high dew point and high humidity? NASCAR has gotten lucky with the cool weather, once the normal Florida weather returns, engies are going to seize up faster then NASCAR can care about. IMHO, this whole process is just stupid period. 765. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, if I remember right, wasn't the Daytona 500 run on an 80 degree day last year? And it certainly won't be 80 when the Shootout is run, considering it's a night race. The qualifying races will give us a better indication of what to expect since they, like the 500, will be run in the daytime. And how is the whole process of what NASCAR did at the recemtly completed test stupid? They were trying different things out in terms of what configuration would be best to run. Remember that the cars were much faster during SpeedWeeks last year than they were at the test, even with a smaller restrictor plate. But that's why it's called a TEST. They wanted to try out new combinations well before the teams got to Daytona for SpeedWeeks to try these new restrictor plate/radiator/gear ratio combinations, rather than have the teams go there cold turkey, and not know what the rules package is going to be, or what to expect. And with the new fuel injection system beginning with this year's Daytona 500, it made the test even more important than ever before. 766. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, if reports are true, it appears that Carl Edwards won't be running Nationwide at all. That could also be very bad news for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. and Trevor Bayne, because it also means that Roush might not have any Nationwide cars running the full circuit, or just one car at the very most with Stenhouse and Bayne splitting the ride, due to lack of sponsorship. And this on the heels of Rusty Wallace shutting down his Nationwide team could mean that series could lose those five cars in 2012, in addition to losing one of Steve Turner's cars, meaning that it might be easier for guys like Austin Dillon (#3) and Cole Whitt (#88), both of whom will be rookies in the Nationwide Series next season, to contend with Elliott Sadler (#2) and Justin Allgaier (#31) for the title in 2012. And if anyone else seriously contends for the Nationwide Series in 2012, I would be surprised, now that Roush apparently won't have a driver in contention for the title in 2012. 767. LordLowe posted: 01.15.2012 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just hope the racing at the intermediate tracks isn't Torture to watch this year 768. ii posted: 01.15.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The cars were blowing water out just sitting idle. If the above sentence is any indicator of how stupid and useless this process of stopping the 2 car draft is then i don't know what else to think." Half of all NASCAR fans (including me) didn't mind the two-car tandem. This is just retarded. We need a new CEO. "I just hope the racing at the intermediate tracks isn't Torture to watch this year" I just hope the racing at the superspeedway tracks have less than 10 cars blow their engines each. 769. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.15.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 766. THANK GOD. We don't need Cup regulars in Nationiwide. However, I do hope that Stenhouse and Bayne get separate rides; they have potential, and I don't want it to be ruined by splitting a ride. Tebow sucks. Just get over it. It's the Bronco's defense (and a little luck) that brought Denver to the playoffs. What if Aaron Rodgers was injured and Tim Tebow replaced him? Or Brady? Or even Brees? Because of those poor defenses, they would fail. Let's say he performes as mediocrely as Joe Flacco. All I really hope for is no more 2-car drafts. Pack racing is SO much better. BTW, the Pack is losing to the Giants.... 770. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.15.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know when these idiot coaches are gonna realize that resting the last week of the season when you already have a bye week cliinched is a horrible idea. How many times did they have the luxury of watching the Colts go one and done after making this mistake? It may have worked a few times, but it hurts more than it helps. 771. Anonymous posted: 01.15.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packers exposed 772. LordLowe posted: 01.15.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At Post's 764 & 768: Don't have a cow man just relax and don't get all bent out of shape with these rule changes 773. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.15.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tebow sucks. Just get over it. It's the Bronco's defense (and a little luck) that brought Denver to the playoffs. What if Aaron Rodgers was injured and Tim Tebow replaced him? Or Brady? Or even Brees? Because of those poor defenses, they would fail. Let's say he performes as mediocrely as Joe Flacco." It would help if he had a coach that wouldn't play to lose (aka throwing 3 people at the QB when on defense), an O-line that could protect him and a legendary QB as his boss to buy into him for ATLEAST 1 year. Give him the weapons as a Drew Brees or a Tom Brady, he'd be alot better. Tebow doesn't suck, his team sucks. Just ask Kyle Orton. Tebow isn't going to do anything in Denver, he'll have to go else where to make a carrer for himself. "1995 Subaru WRX STi, if I remember right, wasn't the Daytona 500 run on an 80 degree day last year? And it certainly won't be 80 when the Shootout is run, considering it's a night race. The qualifying races will give us a better indication of what to expect since they, like the 500, will be run in the daytime. And how is the whole process of what NASCAR did at the recemtly completed test stupid? They were trying different things out in terms of what configuration would be best to run. Remember that the cars were much faster during SpeedWeeks last year than they were at the test, even with a smaller restrictor plate. But that's why it's called a TEST. They wanted to try out new combinations well before the teams got to Daytona for SpeedWeeks to try these new restrictor plate/radiator/gear ratio combinations, rather than have the teams go there cold turkey, and not know what the rules package is going to be, or what to expect. And with the new fuel injection system beginning with this year's Daytona 500, it made the test even more important than ever before." The sole reason NASCAR is testing this stuff is because a bunch of whineos don't like the 2 car draft. "listening to the fans they say." what about listening to those who don't whine about it? If they really wanted to make a big impact, messing with the plates and spoilers. Messing with the cooling system is just asking for trouble. The rule of intended consquences meter is over in the "out there miles away from common sense" zone. And it isn't going back the other way. If you want to get rid of the spoilers fine, go ahead. Get rid fo the plates, fine go ahead. But messing with the cars interially is the dumbest thing they can do. Aside from the tracks wtih character, short tracks and RCs, plate races are one thing that makes NASCAR interesting, now i feel they have ruined it. 774. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2012 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, another thing they were testing was the fuel injection system and how the restrictor plates would be affected by that. And with a new technology such as fuel injection, and that is a brand new technology to NASCAR, that must also be tested in all environments before being put to the challenge in actual racing conditions. For example, a new fuel pump system has to be used, as a new electronic fuel pump now has to be used, instead of the cable-driven pump the teams have been using. After all, what were to happen at Daytona or Talladega if, for some reason, an electronic fuel pump were to failon a car running at or near the front. You'd have a huge crash simply because there wouldn't be anywhere for anyone to go, or any way for the car that failed to get out of the way fast enough. These kind of things need to be tested before they're put in actual racing conditions. That's one reason why the debut of the new fuel that NASCAR is using was delayed until after Daytona a few years back. NASCAR doesn't want it's biggest race affected by a freak problem like faulty EFI-related problems if it can help it. Now if NASCAR, for instance, if NASCAR started the season at Auto Club Speedway in California like they used to at Riverside prior to 1982, they could get rid of some of these problems, as well as give the teams a full race weekend to solve whatever problems they might have, whether it's mechanical, or driver/crew chief/car owner chemistry and communication, the testing prior to Daytona now takes the place of the old Riverside race as somewhat of a warm-up to Daytona SpeedWeeks, because these new combinations need to be ironed out before the season's biggest event. After all, douing nothing prior to Daytona SpeedWeeks would put the new driver/team combinations at a huge disadvantage, as well as the teams, and even NASCAR itself, having no idea of the changes in the cars themselves from one season to the next. 775. LordLowe posted: 01.15.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru: the only person whining here is you 776. LordLowe posted: 01.15.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are no better then the fans that you criticize Josh 777. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.15.2012 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1995 Subaru WRX STi, another thing they were testing was the fuel injection system and how the restrictor plates would be affected by that. And with a new technology such as fuel injection, and that is a brand new technology to NASCAR, that must also be tested in all environments before being put to the challenge in actual racing conditions. For example, a new fuel pump system has to be used, as a new electronic fuel pump now has to be used, instead of the cable-driven pump the teams have been using. After all, what were to happen at Daytona or Talladega if, for some reason, an electronic fuel pump were to failon a car running at or near the front. You'd have a huge crash simply because there wouldn't be anywhere for anyone to go, or any way for the car that failed to get out of the way fast enough. These kind of things need to be tested before they're put in actual racing conditions. That's one reason why the debut of the new fuel that NASCAR is using was delayed until after Daytona a few years back. NASCAR doesn't want it's biggest race affected by a freak problem like faulty EFI-related problems if it can help it." I'll give NASCAR this, they have come a long way with the new fuel system. Even tho i thought they would have done their homework before this test. I have no issues with the new system, homework has been done and it works. I hope within the next couple of years, Trucks and N'wide have it. "1995 Subaru: the only person whining here is you" "You are no better then the fans that you criticize Josh" So i can't complain about complainers? Got ya. I'll never do it again. Atleast i admit to being a crybaby. 778. LordLowe posted: 01.15.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just trying to put you in your place 1995 Subaru. BTW I left you a message on your youtube page in Which I basically say the same things I said In posts 775 & 776 only with a much more harsher tone to it as I try to put you in your place. one last thing you are just as annoying as Michael Cole 779. Spen posted: 01.16.2012 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe: Last I checked, freedom of speech is still part of the constitution. People can complain if they want, and SmokeFan (sorry, old habits) can complain about complainers if he wants to. And you can choose to not read his posts, if they bug you so much. As for you, SmokeFan, while I agree with your point, and I believe you have every right to complain about complainers, you have kinda been beating a dead horse on this particular issue. We get how you feel about this, but you're not going to convince anyone who hasn't been convinced yet. So maybe you should drop this one for a bit. 780. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 01.16.2012 - 3:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh no! It is day 1 of testing, and already the only thing that ESPN cares about is the hooker." Wow, with misogynist garbage like that spewing out of your mouth, I'm sure you are a real hit with the ladies. So just to get this straight, any woman who has pictures taken of herself in a swimsuit is a hooker. Any woman that uses her looks to further her career, is a hooker. Why don't you flip that around and replace "woman" with "man", then ask yourself if you feel the same way. If your answer is "no", guess what, you're sexist. 781. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 01.16.2012 - 4:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just to follow that last post up, if your answer to the flip-around question is yes, you're either a time-traveler from the 19th century, a hyper-religious zealot who believes any amount of skin being shown is a "sin", or just a flat-out moron. So you see, there really is no way to win with opinions that stupid. NicoRosbergFan, you better watch your mouth, this board isn't the total "sausage fest" you think it is. Female racing fans don't spend all of their time in kitchen like you'd probably prefer, they also have time to use the internet and lay the smack down on ignorant little pissants who treat women like garbage. I know Danica is going to be a popular topic and popular target this year, just bear in mind that I WILL be here sticking my feminist boot up anyone's a$$ that veers away from honest discussions about her abilities as a race car driver into baseless, gender-bashing sexism. 782. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.16.2012 - 5:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, FormerlyKahnesGal4, you're entirely wrong. Yes, Danica is a disgrace to throw her body around as a tool of perdition. You cannot call me a misogynist as, in fact, I am a big supporter of having women working in the work field. I am quite familiar and friendly with several FEMALE classmates at my college. The problem is Danica, not anyone else. You are just making one suggestion into a generalization. I do, by the way, hate pictures of mens pecs, if that is what you meant. And I can say what a hooker looks like; I have watched Cops and I have helped in a thrift shop, and yes it is on the same level. 783. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.16.2012 - 5:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I might aggressive at times, but if you have read the Bible, you would notice that it does let men and women work to make money, but it also says that it is a sin to knowingly lead a man into temptation. The same goes for men. I am not questioning Danica's ability to drive (although I think there are many, many, much more talented female racers who just have more morals), I am saying that she is the last person (and I mean conscience, soul, whatever term you prefer) who deserves to be representing women in NASCAR. If you can't accept that one woman out of billions is a disgrace, then you need your priorities checked. By the way... I am a hit with the ladies; I just focus more on college right now. And hyper-religious zealot? Thanks for the compliment. On the lighter side of racing: Happy Birthday AJ Foyt! 784. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2012 - 8:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wish Daytona started this week. It would take my mind off the fact that 1) somewhere in Mississippi, Brett Favre is laughing his creepy perverted ass off in between texting pics of his junk to female interns half his age (Kahne'sGal, where are you for this one) 2) New England now has the inside track for the championship (F--k!!!). I need racing so I can only be depressed by the fact that Dale Jr and Danica (combined win total in the last 4 years: 2, both fuel mileage wins) will get way more media attention than Smoke and JJ (combined championship total in the last 7 seasons: 7). Tony Stewart the owner of Danica's Cup team will get way more attention than Tony Stewart, driver, 3 time Cup champ and living racing legend. 785. Bronco posted: 01.16.2012 - 9:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Carl isn't going to run ANY Nationwide events next year. While this mainly due to his Nationwide sponsor moving up the ranks, I have to believe this is also in part to him doing some TV work for ESPN's Nationwide telecasts. As I said before, I'd rather listen to Carl than any of ESPN's current three driver commentators. Although this takes one more Cup driver out of the mix of winning Nationwide races, I don't think much will change next season, meaning that the majority of races will still be won by the remaining Cup drivers (Busch, Harvick, Menard, Keselowski, Kahne). 786. 18fan posted: 01.16.2012 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We don't know how many races Kyle Busch will run in Nationwide. He is making his announcement for driver and sponsor lineup for KBM's Nationwide program on Thursday, so after then we will know how many races he will run. 787. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I mentioned in post 766 that Edwards wouldn't be planning to run any Nationwide races in 2012, at least as it appears now, but I beg to differ as to the reason why. While it's true that he wants to to some Nationwide races as a commentator, like Darrell Waltrip once did for TNN while he was still an active driver in the Cup series, there is another, more disturbing reason why Edwards may not do ANY Nationwide races this year, and that is the continuing problems Roush is having finding sponsorship for his Nationwide teams. The fact that Edwards announced that he won't be running in the Nationwide Series this year tells me that Roush may not even run a car full-time, or at the most, one car full-time with Trevor Bayne and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. splitting the ride, taking one, and possibly two championship contenders out of the title race, and possibly meaning that he may have to cut one of those two drivers loose by year's end, if not before that. As it stands now, I don't see any more than five drivers seriously contending for the Nationwide Series title in 2012, and those drivers would be Elliott Sadler (#2), Austin Dillon (#3), Justin Allgaier (#31), Cole Whitt (#88), and possibly one other driver we do not yet know about or think will contend. 788. Spen posted: 01.16.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Isn't Hornish running the full season? 789. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.16.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just trying to put you in your place 1995 Subaru. BTW I left you a message on your youtube page in Which I basically say the same things I said In posts 775 & 776 only with a much more harsher tone to it as I try to put you in your place. one last thing you are just as annoying as Michael Cole" Michael Cole is a C rate commentator who endlessly annoys me when he opens his mouth. I have no idea why WWF keeps him around, atleast King and JR can entertain me, Michael Cole NEEDS to go away. Atleast the TNA Impact Wrestling crew and entertain me (even tho many don't like them). "As for you, SmokeFan, while I agree with your point, and I believe you have every right to complain about complainers, you have kinda been beating a dead horse on this particular issue. We get how you feel about this, but you're not going to convince anyone who hasn't been convinced yet. So maybe you should drop this one for a bit." I'm already done with it. "Although this takes one more Cup driver out of the mix of winning Nationwide races, I don't think much will change next season, meaning that the majority of races will still be won by the remaining Cup drivers (Busch, Harvick, Menard, Keselowski, Kahne)." Brad is only running half the races, Harvick will only race about 10 (or less), Menard doesn't even run that many, neither does Kahne. We aren't losing much. 790. Talon64 posted: 01.16.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Looks like Carl isn't going to run ANY Nationwide events next year. While this mainly due to his Nationwide sponsor moving up the ranks, I have to believe this is also in part to him doing some TV work for ESPN's Nationwide telecasts. As I said before, I'd rather listen to Carl than any of ESPN's current three driver commentators. Although this takes one more Cup driver out of the mix of winning Nationwide races, I don't think much will change next season, meaning that the majority of races will still be won by the remaining Cup drivers (Busch, Harvick, Menard, Keselowski, Kahne)." Who knows what Kyle will be doing this year. Kurt could end up running more races (he's already going to be running about 10 for James Finch). Harvick and Menard are only running 10 races each in the #33 RCR car. That means about a 3rd of the season having a Cup driver in the #33 though. BraKes and Kligerman are splitting the #22, I'm assuming evenly. Kahne's running 15 races in the #38. Not knowing what their exact schedule are, it looks like there could be a number of non-companion events that'll be free of any Cup drivers. Then it's a question of whether anyone can compete with the Cup guys when they're in town. If Stenhouse and/or Bayne are back full time in 2012 (and cjs3872 I'm aware that their sponsorship situation is bleak, thank you) then they'd be the likeliest to take it to them. Austin Dillon's should be able to as well, and Sam Hornish Jr. already did it at Phoenix. The last time Nationwide driver won more than 10 races in a season was 2005, and I think there's a good chance of that happening this season. 791. Talon64 posted: 01.16.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) oops, I meant two 3rd's of the season having a Cup driver in the #33. Oh and David Ragan's finally got a ride. With the #34 Front Row Motorsports team. And with Jay Guy as his crew chief. Now THAT'S a potent combination! 792. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Spen, I know Hornish is currently slated to run the full season in the Nationwide Series, as is Danica Patrick, but I seriously doubt either of them will be a serious championship contender. But if either one of them is, then that would be the surprise contender that nobody suspects is coming other than the four likely championship contenders I've mentioned. And let's not forget, in terms of Cup drivers in the #33 car, that the ex-KHI teams waere not very good as a whole last year. Everyone mentions that Elliott Sadler did not win last year in the #2 car, but nobody won in the #33 car, either. With Childress taking over that operation in 2012, I look for big things from Sadler, Dillon, and the driver roster in the #33 car in the Nationwide Series in 2012. But the problem is the depth of the fields in the Nationwide Series next year, as we could literally se one-third of the field start-and-park in a number of races next year with the demise of Rusty Wallace's team, one of Turner's cars, and Roush's diminshed roster, that could be as many as six cars that were on the grdid last year that won't be there in 2012, with only one or two replacements that I know of. And the roster of start-and-park teams in the Cup series may have grown with the announcement that Jay Robinson will have a Cup team in 2012. Like I've said, we may have double-digit start-and-parks in sopme Cup races next year, and Robinson's supposed entry in Cup in 2012 may verify that. 793. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It would help if he had a coach that wouldn't play to lose (aka throwing 3 people at the QB when on defense)" Take it from this Panthers fan who had to suffer through the entire John Fox Era, that is something Tim will be stuck with in Denver as long as Fox is there. He will never open that offense up. He is still stuck in the 1970s. Remember, that "playing not to lose" is what cost the Panthers Super Bowl 38 after they took the lead (that and Kasey kicking the ball out of bounds and the Pats video taping our defensive calls). John Fox is also the reason most people think Jake Delhomme was never a good quarterback when he was from '03-'05 before he hurt his elbow. Then, after Jake came back, it was obvious he wasn't the same yet Fox still stuck with him and killed our '09 season. I agree Tebow can be an elite QB if given good weapons and a coach willing to take a chance or two. He will have to go elsewhere for that to happen. To a team with a forward thinking leader. "John Fox" and "forward thinking" go together like "Mark Martin" and "gracefully exiting". 794. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.16.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robby Gordon finished 5th in the Dakar rally and won 3 stages. HOWEVER......................got DQ'ed. Now before anyone sayd "hehehehehehe, thought so" He got DQ'd for something he passed pre-rally inspection with AFTER people started complaining about it. Then he got DQ'd. But he appealed and finished the rally. I hope he wins the appeal because if what he had was at first legal then dubbed illegal AFTER people started complaining. But this is the FIA, they are more dumb then they are smart. 795. Red posted: 01.16.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh and David Ragan's finally got a ride. With the #34 Front Row Motorsports team. And with Jay Guy as his crew chief. Now THAT'S a potent combination!" This has been a very satisfying silly season, as justice has prevailed: Kurt Busch acts like a petulant, entitled prick, throwing his team under the bus at every opportunity. His penalty? A major demotion to Phoenix Racing. JUSTICE. David Ragan massively underachieves for five seasons in top-notch equipment, single-handedly diminishing the legacy of Roush's #6 Ford. His penalty? Demotion to the pitiful Front Row Motorsports. Exactly what he deserves. Casey Mears, a middling, horrendous underachiever for many years, is finally stuck in the sub-par ride that is befitting of his sub-par talent, #13 the Germain team. AJ Allmendinger has perservered through difficult circumstances and bad luck throughout his Cup career, struggling with a fledgling Red Bull team, then dealing with the dysfunction/ownership/sponsorship issues at Petty. He's never complained or bad-mouthed his teams, and despite the adversity he's improved into a decent driver. His reward? A chase-caliber ride at Penske. Character pays off. Well, okay, watching David Reutimann have his ride hijacked by Mark Favre was pretty disgusting, but four out of five ain't bad. 796. Red posted: 01.16.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru: Nobody here is trying to deny you free speech. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. However, you really need to get off your high-horse and stop acting like you represent what "real" fans want. There are many real fans who hate the chase. There are many real fans who prefer pack racing to tandem racing. There are many real fans who dislike the CoT. There are many real fans who don't like the wave-around / lucky dog rules. There are many real fans who don't agree with Brian France's leadership. There are many real fans who don't like the direction NASCAR has been going. It's been downright infuriating to read your posts, insinuating that other people on this forum are NOT REAL FANS just because we don't walk the Brian France party-line like you do. You need to learn how to share your opinions without pissing on everyone else's in the process. 797. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.16.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There are many real fans who hate the chase." As someone who used to like the Chase (i get the idea of it on paper) this i "can disagree with. "There are many real fans who prefer pack racing to tandem racing." I'm not against pack racing, i'm against ARTIFICALLY creating it. "There are many real fans who dislike the CoT." I have no issuses with the COT i never did, just the fact that a new body style is coming out when the current body works just fine. "There are many real fans who don't like the wave-around / lucky dog rules." The wave around is cheap but the lucky dog is better then racing back to the line. "There are many real fans who don't agree with Brian France's leadership." He isn't half the leader his dad was and isn't 75% the leader Bill Jr.s dad was. "There are many real fans who don't like the direction NASCAR has been going." NASCAR is being lead by the "Fans" on issues that they shouldn't be lead by. I'm just pointing that out. "fans" lead this sport more then they are willing to admit. And to me that is wrong. I'm sorry people can't get that. Red, you say i tow the BF party line, yet this WHOLE time, i've been throwing NASCAR as a whole under the bus for HOW they are stopping the 2 car draft. There are better ways to do it. DSFF, i can't disagree with you. 798. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.16.2012 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As someone who used to like the Chase (i get the idea of it on paper) this i "can disagree with." I can't disagree with. *shakes head* 799. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2012 - 9:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just saw the new Dale Jr TaxSlayer commercial. That may be his worse one yet. Not the most tasteless one. Those belong to the Nationwide and Hellman's commercials when he speaks of the "Earnhardt family" while exploiting Ralph and Martha Earnhardt and blatently ignoring Teresa (and Big E cause they don't have the rights to his name, a brialliant move by Teresa considering what Jr and Kelley would do to exploit his image) who is only the woman who RAISED Dale Jr from age six onwards while his Dad was out racing, hunting, fishing, doing business deals, schmoozing whith CEOs, or practicing bow hunting on life sized cardboard cutouts of Geoff Bodine. In this commercial, for some reason, June is acting as a caddy (with his hat on backwards which he is about 15 years too old to still be doing), a barber who screws up (in all fairness totally believable, the screwing up part that is), and worst of all, dressed up as a Japanese chef or karate instructor or (insert Asian stereotype here). The implication being..... I don't know. Considering his long history of bad commercials, he may have topped himself with this one. One last thought on Dale Jr and commercials. Remember those Monte Carlo commercials that ran in 2000 with him and his Dad? Big E is driving and June is in the passengers seat trying to tell him what he should be doing, to which Dale replies "I can't hear you because my ears are plugged with my seven Winston Cup championship rings" (blatently stolen from Patrick Roy). The point being "I have seven championships and you have none". Twelve years later, that commercial would still work. Just saying. "Well, okay, watching David Reutimann have his ride hijacked by Mark Favre was pretty disgusting" Ha! Mark Favre. I was thinking of calling him that this year. Oh well, it should be fun watching him and Kurt Busch battle for 25th every week on the non plate tracks. 800. Red posted: 01.17.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh well, it should be fun watching him and Kurt Busch battle for 25th every week on the non plate tracks." The whole thing with Mark Favre is kinda sad, honestly. As recently as 2009, he was almost universally revered by everyone involved in NASCAR, for his class and for his driving excellence. Three years later, he's really tarnished his image and legacy, becoming a ride-stealing old man who doesn't know when to hang it up. His partial schedules and flip-flopping have hindered the careers of several drivers he was supposed to be mentoring, and he's making more driving mistakes than at any point in his career. In the long term, I think people will probably forget about his end-of-career shenanigans, and remember Mark as the Hall-of-Fame driver he was for 20+ years. But, much like the Real Favre, it'll probably be a while before the tarnish turns back to shine. 801. Red posted: 01.17.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru, those are fair points, and I don't mean to come across as attacking you. But I disagree that NASCAR has been catering to the fans. Of all the major changes that began in 2003 when Brian took over, how many of them were really what the fans wanted? The chase certainly was not. Some fans may have clamored for a different points system after Kenseth's runwaway title, but nobody really wanted a playoff in NASCAR. I remember the fan polls in 2004 were like 85% against the chase, but Brian implimented it anyway. The COT was a NASCAR idea all the way, despite most fans being heavily against spec cars. Admittedly it hasn't turned out as bad as I thought, but it's still not what people wanted. I'll concede that double-file restarts were put in practice because the fans wanted it, and I think for the most part it's been a success. The gimmick rules are an unfortunate side-effect. Anyway, the point I was making in the other post is that dissent among fans is a good thing, as it eventually forces the powers-that-be to make the changes people want. I know it bothers you when people complain, but that's the only way anything gets done. If we all just kept quiet and followed the status quo, where would that get us? *When I said you were towing the line on tandem drafting, I meant that you want to stick with the status quo by leaving everything as it currently is. That seems to be the tone of all your posts: accept NASCAR the way it is, however it is, and don't complain about it. I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one. 802. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.18.2012 - 5:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the case of both Mark Martin and Brett Favre, sports is not only a grossly overpaid job but also is an addiction that is hard to break. Just look at James Hylton, Morgan Shepherd, Geoff Bodine, and ARCA's Darrell Basham, still riding around despite the antique tag on their cars. The best way for these guys to stick around would be giving the guys an attitude adjustment a stern (key word stern) talking to and explain the danger of their actions. 803. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.18.2012 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "His partial schedules and flip-flopping have hindered the careers of several drivers he was supposed to be mentoring, and he's making more driving mistakes than at any point in his career." Exactly. It's the part about the people around them they hurt that is the most bugging. Him not going away and trying to hang around took rides from Regan, Almirola, Keselowski, Kahne (for one year), and now Reutimann. Regan and Almirola still haven't totally recovered. In 2010 it looked as though he royally screwed Brad but after 2011 it looks like he did him a huge favor, Kasey had to waste a year of his prime in a lame duck situation just trying to win a race, and Reut is just plain screwed after years of undying loyalty to MWR (I blame Michael Waltrip just as much as Mark for this one). I'd compare Mark's '07 and '08 to Favre's '08 with the Jets where both just hung around just to hang around, had incredible starts (Mark's near miss in the '07 Daytona 500 and the Jets 8-3 start) that fizzled out in the end. They both had major resurgances in '09. Mark with HMS and Brett with the Vikes. Mark won 5 times, and finished 2nd only to the 48 juggernaut. Brett had probably his best all around regular season, almost as many TDs as his Green Bay glory days with FAR less INTs, an ass kicking of Dallas in the playoffs, and played 59 great minutes against the soon to be champs Saints in their own Dome while NO's defense took more cheap shots all game like they were all Claude Lemeiux. And they both gagged in crucial situations: Brett's "Oh wait, THAT's why he only has one ring" interception against NO, and Mark slamming JPM on a restart in Charlotte that took him out of it (had JJ not been wrecked at Texas, he would have clinched at Phoenix). And Mark's '10 and '11 have been just like Brett's 2010. They look like guys who are too old and too used up to compete with the big boys. Remember that Monday Night game they played outside in Minnesota with the temp around zero and the ground rock hard from being frozen? Remember how Brett took forever to get up after every single hit before eventually being taken out of good in what turned out to be the last play of his career. They had him bundled up on the sidelines afterwards with a "What The Hell Am I Doing Here?" look on his face. One of the announcers said he looks "old, cold, and tired". That is Mark now (minus the cold part). At least Brett finally got out. Mark keeps going. Into oblivion. Dragging people with him. "Just look at James Hylton, Morgan Shepherd, Geoff Bodine" Do we have to look at them? They are all pretty old and wrinkled. I'd rather not look at them. How about we "consider their circumstances" instead? Just kidding. 804. Scott B posted: 01.18.2012 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eventually, I believe NASCAR will have their version of a "Seniors Tour," much like the PGA does. With a limited schedule and shorter event distances, it could make both fans and drivers happy. Right now, though, Brian France and his minions are knocking themselves out trying to market to younger audiences. 805. Sean posted: 01.18.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought the truck series was supposed to be the senior tour. For a while there it was where careers went to die (even though the racing is better...) As for Martin, I stopped liking him once he left Roush, went to Ginn (pretty analogous to him going to MWR now) and started (in my opinion) badmouthing the Roush equipment, especially while at Hendrick ("Oh wow! I've never had cars this great before!). As if Roush didn't have equipment CAPABLE of winning titles for most of the '90s... In fact pre-Jeff Gordon, Roush was usually stronger than Hendrick. Martin was one of my favorites for a long time from the mid-'90s until he left Roush, but knowing about his earlier career (how Martin was an alcoholic in the mid-'80s until he got lucky to get a second chance with Roush), it seems like a major slap in the face to Roush organization for him to NOT ONLY drive for other teams (long after he was supposed to "retire") but to burn the owner who gave him a second chance again and again (not that I actually like Roush, mind you; I pretty much find ALL the owners capable of winning races to be swine) seems rotten (is this a payback for Roush forcing him to compete in 2006 a year later than he wanted to?). I hope he NEVER breaks Harry Gant's oldest winner record, but I don't see it happening. MWR equipment is probably only capable of winning on plate tracks, and Martin does not have enough killer instinct (even less than he did before). Jeff Burton has no killer instinct either (enough so I KNEW on the last lap at Talladega that he'd find a way to blow it and Bowyer would win). Then adding in all the drivers whose careers Martin has ruined and he's basically completely unlikable now. He's not even driving clean anymore and he used to be known for his "cleanness". Now he annoys me almost like other guys like Carl Edwards who pretend to be cleaner than they really are (I actually feel/felt that way about Matt Kenseth and Dale Jarrett too, but they weren't as bad). Martin's had great opportunities and now seems to be whining about them. What a disappointment. I did want to see him win the title in 2009 too, but now in retrospect, I'm even regretting that. 806. Talon64 posted: 01.18.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for Martin, I stopped liking him once he left Roush, went to Ginn (pretty analogous to him going to MWR now) and started (in my opinion) badmouthing the Roush equipment, especially while at Hendrick ("Oh wow! I've never had cars this great before!)." Kurt's been doing that with Penske, talking about how great it is to have Hendrick engines and chassis'. Just wait until it dawns on him that he's with the dead last team on the Hendrick totem pole with a budget no where near Penske's or Roush's. 807. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 01.18.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I can say what a hooker looks like; I have watched Cops and I have helped in a thrift shop, and yes it is on the same level." I don't know if this is a joke, or you are really that dumb. Either way, it doesn't help your argument that aren't sexist. "The problem is Danica, not anyone else. You are just making one suggestion into a generalization. I do, by the way, hate pictures of mens pecs, if that is what you meant." Yet another joke. Haha, real funny, you don't like looking at men with their shirts off, so that totally absolves you of any sexism. The real problem is you don't seem to have any clue what sexism is, and your only defense is to deflect my serious accusation away with lame humor. The fact is, you wouldn't call a man a hooker if he did the exact same things that Danica does. That's why you are sexist. "I might aggressive at times, but if you have read the Bible, you would notice that it does let men and women work to make money, but it also says that it is a sin to knowingly lead a man into temptation. The same goes for men." Ah, the "it says it in the bible, so that makes it alright for me say it in the modern day" defense, a classic tool of the ignorant. So, since you take the bible at it's word for EVERYTHING, and that makes your sexist attitude okay in your mind, you must not have a problem with this: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46) or this: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11) You know I could go on all day quoting things in the bible that wouldn't be acceptable in our modern society, the one based on equality and freedom, but since you already made it abundantly clear that anything in the bible is beyond reproach in your own personal beliefs, we can all assume that you are pro-slavery. Hey everybody, NicoRosbergFan is PRO-SLAVERY!!!! Frankly, this is a bigger issue than your sexism now. NicoRosberg thinks it's ok to call women hookers if they pose in a swimsuit, and it's ok to sell children into slavery. He knows better than all of us, he reads the bible. P.S. - Sorry for derailing the topics at hand, you may no resume your regularly scheduled racing discussion. Since there is a lot of talk about Mark Martin, I'm glad I'm not the only one a little annoyed and confused at his insistence in sticking around the Cup series. I think the Brett Favre comparison is surprisingly apt. But ultimately, if he still has the passion for racing, and can accept running 20th every week just to be in the field, I guess he should do what he wants. He shouldn't have any regrets after he leaves racing. But us fans don't have to like it. Speaking of people that should have retired gracefully, Bobby Labonte is due. Hang up the helmet Bobby, for the good of your legacy. 808. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.18.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FormerlyKahne's4Gal: You are an immature little feminist who has no concepts of the teachings of the Bible. In case you didn't read (you probably had somebody type this for you cause you can't read), I said that it is a sin for a woman to deliberately lead a man into temptation like Danica does. By the way, heathen, (since the Bible is obsolete, I can insult), you are calling Jesus a liar. No,I wouldn't call a man a hooker; I'd call him a masher and a creep. And since you can't read, you wouldn't notice that I said I am for women's rights to work nad be treated the same as a man. As a mater of fact, the sexist here is you FK4G, since you obviously believe that women rule the world and are holier than God since they don't have to obey God's written covenant, the same law that Christ said that "not one jot or tittle shall pass away from until all is accomplished" when he is talking about the End of Time. 809. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.18.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, neither Christ nor the saints condemned slavery. 810. Red posted: 01.18.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But ultimately, if he still has the passion for racing, and can accept running 20th every week just to be in the field, I guess he should do what he wants." If Mark was racing for his own team, or drove a few one-off races with a bigger team, I'd really have no problem with him sticking around. But he's literally taking a ride away from some driver who still has a future in the Cup series, some driver who may never get a chance because of Mark. In this era where we have a severe shortage of quality rides, Mark is selfishly wasting one of those rides so an old man can run his favorite 25 races and leave the scraps for someone else. I would prefer if Mark had an arrangement like Danica does this year, just running select races in an extra car for an established team, and thus not taking away another driver's opportunity in the process. 811. cjs3872 posted: 01.18.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when Burton and Bowyer got as far ahead as they did after the final restart at Talladega, you knew that whichever one of them was leading was not going to win, and that driver just happened to be Burton, as there was no way that Bowyer wasn't going to pass Burton. In fact, Bowyer almost made the move too soon, as Burton almost drafted back by him by the start-finish line. And there was no way that Burton was going to risk taking both of them out. And while you're right about Burton being one of the gentleman drivers out there, you're incorrect about him not having a killer instinct. Just look at the races at Dover in the fall of 2006 and the spring race at Texas in 2007, as well as his win in the 1999 Coca-Cola 600 as examples of him outracing elite drivers for wins. Now as for clean, or gentlemanly drivers not being able to win championships or the biggest races, that's a fallacy, as well. Drivers like Ned Jarrett, Benny Parsons, and the Labonte brothers have all proven this theory wrong. Jarrett won 50 races, including the 1965 Southern 500, and two championships, while Parsons won the 1973 championship, the 1975 Daytona 500, and his win in the 1980 Coca-Cola 600 proved that, when he had to, he could race as hard as anyone. Terry Labonte won two championships while conquering some of the toughest tracks on the circuit, such as Pocono, Darlington, Rockingham, and Bristol. The tougher the track, the better he was. And his two wins in the All-Star Race in 1988 and '99 (and two other close calls, 1987 and '96) proved that he, like Benny Parsons, could race as hard as anyone when he had to. Bobby Labonte, the 2000 NASCAR champion, won all the big races except Daytona, and he was also a gentlemanly driver. Not one of those drivers ruffled very many feathers, proving that you didn't have to rough up the competition to get to victory lane. And there are other expamles of this. Jarrett, Parsons, and the Labonte brothers are just the biggest examples of gentlemanly drivers being able to be as successful as anyone else. As was once said about legendary defensive lineman Merlin Olsen, he always carried a big stick, but hardly ever used it. The same can be said about these four drivers, and there are other yonger drivers coming up that race like these drivers did, instead of running over and through their competition. 812. Sean posted: 01.19.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I understand how slingshot passes work but I think even if Burton was trailing, he would have mistimed the move and Bowyer still would have won. I think he's lost it as a driver a bit the past couple years... Normally I'm not someone who believes much in "killer instinct" but I haven't taken Burton very seriously as a driver since that odd incident in the 2010 chase when he wrecked Jeff Gordon for no reason under caution then had that silly "fight" with him. Sometimes there are moments in drivers' careers when you can suddenly no longer take them seriously. For me, I kind of felt that way about Junior after he caused the Big One in a VERY avoidable move in the 2009 Daytona 500 and from that point on never really saw him as a serious threat. And I definitely felt that way about Burton after he caused that Texas wreck... In both cases, I've seen nothing from either driver since those incidents to make me take either of them seriously. Brian Vickers had a moment like that in the fall Martinsville race last year. The difference of course being that he wasn't even considered a major talent at any point before that... This is kind of where I'm coming from when I said I KNEW Bowyer had it. It WASN'T just that he was trailing in their two-car tandem. It's more that I think Bowyer is trying to race and Burton no longer is. I agree with you that Ned Jarrett, Benny Parsons, and the Labontes were clean drivers and nice guys, but I disagree with the implied argument that nice guys can't have killer instinct. In his competitive years, Terry Labonte certainly had killer instinct (for instance slamming on the gas when Earnhardt punted him across the finish line at the '95 Bristol race and intentionally wrecking himself to ensure a victory), and I'd say the same about the other drivers you mentioned. You can be a nice guy and still have killer instinct. I would say those drivers had killer instinct and fought for wins in their prime. Now, I would also say that some of the older drivers like Bobby Labonte, Jeff Burton, and Mark Martin have completely LOST their killer instinct and I don't see any of them ever winning again, even in good cars... I kind of disagree with Burton as a nice guy. He's always seemed like a bit of a smarmy kiss-ass to me, but that's a feeling I get. He's nowhere near as bad as several of the Gen-Y drivers are, but I've never really liked him. And while I'll admit sometimes he had killer instinct, there are other times it seemed like he didn't really make an effort, in his prime. 1997 Southern 500? He just let Gordon have it. I know it can often be very difficult to race side-by-side at Darlington, but I do think he should have tried harder in that one... Having said that, he certainly could fight for wins very hard especially in 1999-2000 (his 1999 spring Darlington win with a wrecked car might make up for the 1997 Southern 500 loss). Again, I'm not saying he NEVER had a killer instinct, just that he doesn't have one now (last 2 or 3 years). And for that reason, I would have expected Bowyer to win no matter who was leading the tandem, kind of like in retrospect it was OBVIOUS that Harvick was going to get Martin in the 2007 Daytona 500. And I'm not really nearly as big on the killer instinct thing myself as a lot of others, by the way. Usually it comes down to driving talent and equipment talent... But with a guy who has been driving VERY conservatively in recent years (I wasn't all that impressed by his 2006-2008 wins either compared to his 1997-2001 wins...) has a one-lap duel versus a guy who seems to be exerting more effort now and passing is no challenge whatsoever, I'd go with the latter driver... 813. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.19.2012 - 5:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Eventually, I believe NASCAR will have their version of a "Seniors Tour," much like the PGA does. With a limited schedule and shorter event distances, it could make both fans and drivers happy." I would LOVE to see NASCAR do something similar to this, although not based on the age of the driver.....what about a "Stock Car Masters" series, based upon Touring Car Masters? TCM is a category we have here in Australia for pre-1977 touring cars, but with modern safety equipment and technology, such as disc brakes, complex roll cages, radial tyres, dry-sump motors (though still carbed and making about 600hp). It generally runs in support of the V8 Supercar series, with relatively short races (usually 20-35 minutes) and has become very popular for fans and drivers alike, with many past stars now taking part in the championship. Imagine the NASCAR equivalent - the true, classic muscle cars with the safety and reliability of modern stock cars. Plenty of short track races, maybe 50-75 miles in length? I reckon it'd be awesome fun. Btw, if anything similar already exists, let me know, I'd really like to see it. Here's some TCM footage from Bathurst in 2007, the inaugural year of the series. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94zWD5pdvIk 814. cjs3872 posted: 01.19.2012 - 9:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, there was almost no question that Mark Martin would find a way to lose the 2007 Daytona 500, as he always seemed to find a way to lose when the big situations came about. The 2009 Brickyard 400 is another example of that. By choosing the inside lane on the restart, he basicaly sealed his own fate, as Jimmie Johnson sucked Martin's car to where he had to back of exiting turn two, sealing Martin as the runner-up, with Johnson winning the race. But even Martin could race hard when he had to, as the 2002 Coca-Cola 600, 2005 All-Star Race, and 2009 Southern 500 races he won in late-race battles were examples of, but more often than not, he would find a way to lose. That, more than a lack of "killer instinct", was Martin's downfall. And you're right about Burton about what happened between him and Gordon at Texas in 2010. That was a truly ridiculous incident. Like Martin, Burton's problem is age, as I think time has passed him by, though he's still a very competent driver, just no longer one that can consistently contend for wins, meaning that in 2012, Richard Childress has only one driver capable of competing for wins in the Cup series. For Childres, Austin Dillon can't get to the Cup series fast enough, which will give him a second driver capable of competing for wins regularly. 815. Formerly-KahnesGal4 posted: 01.19.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "FormerlyKahne's4Gal: You are an immature little feminist who has no concepts of the teachings of the Bible. In case you didn't read (you probably had somebody type this for you cause you can't read), I said that it is a sin for a woman to deliberately lead a man into temptation like Danica does." So what does "sin" have to do with anything we are talking about? Not everyone follows your religion or it's contradictory teachings. Last time I checked there is a separation between church and state. And you can't hide behind your bible to make it acceptable to believe one thing, and then ignore what it says about another. "No,I wouldn't call a man a hooker; I'd call him a masher and a creep." ...Aaaaaaand there's your double standard. That's the root of everything we're arguing about. A woman does it and you call her a sex worker, a man does it and he's just a creep (obviously only because it makes you uncomfortable, might want to look into that, it's just the human body) "As a mater of fact, the sexist here is you FK4G, since you obviously believe that women rule the world and are holier than God since they don't have to obey God's written covenant" Wow, so advocating equal rights and the end of double standards is the same as believing that women rule the world to you? You say you're all for women in the workplace, doing the same things as men, yet you're apparently incredibly threatened by the first one to finally call you on your bulls***. And why should anyone have to obey god's written covenant, particularly those who don't believe in it? Stop forcing your religion and it's archaic rules on other people. It's bad enough we have Muslims trying to do that through violence, we don't need any more Christians doing it through vague threats of sin and a Christian hell. I follow the rules of modern society, not your church or your faith. That's your own thing, so keep it to yourself. "By the way, neither Christ nor the saints condemned slavery. " I was just being facetious when I accused you of being pro-slavery, because I found it humorous that you'd hide behind the bible to explain your behavior....but did you seriously just DEFEND slavery? I can't think of any other reason why you'd say that, other than trying to make it alright for you to use the bible in your argument. "Hey, Christ thought slaves were just fine, so you can't use that against me, because Christ was perfect!" Is that not what you just implied? That's just....scary. ------------------------------------------ And now for the racing portion of my message. "I would LOVE to see NASCAR do something similar to this, although not based on the age of the driver.....what about a "Stock Car Masters" series, based upon Touring Car Masters? " I know it's not exactly what you're talking about, but there is that Legends race before Bristol every year, which is a similar idea. Or did they stop doing that after Larry Pearson almost died the one year? Either way, I really liked the idea, because it let newer fans watch a driver they'd never otherwise get to see, like David Pearson, drive a race car. I think they could expand the idea to 6 to 10 other tracks a year and keep track of points. Make it part of the friday activities. Practice, Legends race, 2nd Practice, Qualifying. Or do it after the qualifying, whatever. I think a Seniors Tour is a great idea, and you know some of those old guys would love to get back behind the wheel of a race car while they still had a chance. 816. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.19.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look, FK4G, I'm sorry for being pigheaded and trying to force my views on you. I have been extremely immature and can't stand seeing Danica. I can see that, even though I can't fathom it, there are people who just don't go for religion and I will have to accept that not everyone has to agree that something is sinful just because one or two religions say so. I just need to point out that masher is the masculine form of hooker. No, I don't go for slavery; I was just making a point; some things are just cultural. Also, don't call it "my Bible" because about 2 billion people use it as a guideline. Again, sorry for my stupidity. PS: Do something about your name; it is too long to read. On racing: the senior tour is kind-of scary because of what happened; they would have to massively improve safety and possibly have health monitors for utmost security. Once again, sorry. 817. cjs3872 posted: 01.19.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, as much as I hate to admit it for the fans of the old-timers, a senior circuit would never work in motorsports. Not only for the Larry Pearson crash at Bristol a couple of years ago, which could have been avoided, but Charlie Glotzbach (I think it was him) just couldn't react fast enough to avoid Larry's car. But let's not forget that in 1993, as part of ESPN's Thunder Series, they tried something called "FastMasters" for drivers over the age of 50, which was originally supposed to consist of a race on the IRP oval, as well as the road course there, but there was a big crash the first week when they ran on the oval, so they no longer ran on the oval. Three-time Indy winner Bobby Unser won the whole thing, and the driver roster for that series was an all-star cast from various forms of the sport, but the idea never caught on and 1993 was the only year that "FastMasters" ran. Unlike golf and tennis, a senior circuit will never work in racing. However, the one thing about the 1993 FastMasters series that nobody who saw it will ever forget was Bobby Allison racing again, with his son Davey watching, especially considering what happened shortly after that. Nobody will ever forget that night at IRP when Bobby Allison returned to the cockpit of a race car. But a senior circuit will never work in auto racing, mostly because of the numerous dangers involved. 818. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.19.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red (post #795), I completely agree with you. This was one of the best off-seasons in years, with a tyrant like Kurt Busch finally getting what was coming to him: a release from Penske for all the complaining he did, as well as treating others who didn't do anything to him like garbage for no reason. I bet many times this year, he'll be wishing he were still driving those Penske cars because he'll be lucky to even finish in the top 20 with Phoenix Racing. That move triggered a chance for both AJ Allmendinger and Aric Almirola to prove themselves as Cup drivers (I still think Almirola's coming up too early, he needed to show more with JRM's #88 in Nationwide). Both of them are what I would have chosen over the alternative though (Ragan in the 22? Busch in the 43? No thanks!), and I do hope both can prosper. 819. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 01.19.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only downside is that David Reutimann lost his ride with MWR despite being the only driver in their history to win a race, and being as loyal as they come. Sad to see that's how drivers like that get treated (Ward Burton is another good example). 820. Talon64 posted: 01.19.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good news for NNS: Ricky Stenhouse Jr. will be back full time in the series in 2012 to defend his championship. Still nothing for Bayne yet, although he's got his part-half schedule in Cup with the Wood Brothers. But terrible news for NNS: Kurt and Kyle Busch will split the KBM ride (#54, with Monster Energy Drink as the sponsor; turns out the Carmichael/Monster to KBM rumors were only half right) in 2012. Kyle will run the first 5 race and then it'll be an even split the rest of the way so that's 19 races for Kyle and 14 for Kurt. But you add Kurt's races in with Phoenix Racing and you're looking at Kurt running 20+ races. Ruining NNS for fans who actually want to see real NNS drivers win races has become a family project for the Busch brothers. 821. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.19.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unlike golf and tennis, a senior circuit will never work in racing." Don't make it a senior tour for older drivers, make it for older cars! Age of the driver doesn't matter, I want to see the true American classics going at it! 822. Scott B posted: 01.19.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unlike golf and tennis, a senior circuit will never work in racing." You already have guys age 50+ (Seniors, by professional sports standards) racing in Cup, NNW, Trucks, and ARCA. How is that less dangerous than consolidating them into one series? 823. 18fan posted: 01.19.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon, according to Jayski's team chart, Kyle will run 13-15 races in the KBM car and Kurt would run the rest. Still, that means Kurt running near a full schedule when you add his races with Phoenix Racing to his races with KBM. 824. Anonymous posted: 01.19.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But terrible news for NNS: Kurt and Kyle Busch will split the KBM ride (#54, with Monster Energy Drink as the sponsor; turns out the Carmichael/Monster to KBM rumors were only half right) in 2012. Kyle will run the first 5 race and then it'll be an even split the rest of the way so that's 19 races for Kyle and 14 for Kurt. But you add Kurt's races in with Phoenix Racing and you're looking at Kurt running 20+ races." I swear I had read that Kurt was going to run 20 races for KBM, but when I went back to the NASCAR.com article that had that information, it had been updated and no longer has a definite number of races for each driver. So I'm guessing that might have just been an estimated number tossed out by Kyle, because they are still hammering out the details. Still, I don't think Kyle will run any more than maybe 14 to 17 races, and none of them will happen after the start of the Chase, as per his sponsor and team requests. Plus he's not running any Truck races this year. So it's a start. And since this is his own team that he's driving for....I don't feel like I can really get on his case too much. I mean Dale Earnhardt used to do the same thing, running about 13 or 14 races a year. Kyle could very well end up right in that same number, maybe even less if the 20 races for Kurt turns out to be true. 825. Spen posted: 01.19.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regarding this whole "Mark Farve" thing, I personally think we're all blowing things way out of proportion. He didn't cost David Reutimann his ride. The only person Reutimann should blame for that is himself. Let's face it, there were 29 serious cars in the field last year, and he wound up 28th. Ahead of only over-the-hill Bobby Labonte driving for a single-car sattelitte team. Yeah, MWR is far from cream of the crop, but look at what Truex did with the same equiptment. Double-diget top tens, multiple top fives, more laps led than Reutimann's ever had in a single season. And that was with a team that was about as good as Greg Biffle's in terms of putting a complete race together. Reutimann had a lot less bad luck than Truex had, and got far less to show for it. Aside from Kentucky, he didn't really do *anything* notable last year. Now, I like Reutimann, and I hate seeing him with TBR, but he had it coming. When you're not a big name, or a young gun, you can't afford to have a bad year. Now is firing one driver who's too old to get the job done in exchange for one who's even older a good idea? Probably not. But it's not Mark's fault for taking the offer. Reutimann was gone one way or the other, and if Mark didn't take the ride, it probably would have gone to Casey Mears. As for the other career's that Mark's non-retirment has 'ruined', Smith was not in any way ready for Cup in 2007. Remember how badly he sucked for most of '08? If he'd come up in '07, he'd likely have fallen out of the top-35, lost his ride, and never gotten the Talledega 'win' that saved his career. Almirola is pretty much the same story. He got the #8 full-time after Mark left, and did didally squat with it. Would coming up a year earlier have changed anything except what year he gets fired in? Keselowski is probably better off being top dog at Penske than he'd have been as Hendrick's #3, and while yes, you could argue that Kasey lost a possible year at Hendrick, if Mark had retired in '09 as originally planned, Kasey would have never had a shot at that ride to begin with. As for his comments about Hendrick equiptment being the best he'd ever had, look at Hendrick's overall stats in '09. Counting the sattelittes, they had 18 wins, and *4800* lead laps that year. That is beyond fantastic. It would not be at all inaccurate to call that "the best equiptment I've ever driven". Heck, Junior aside, I'd call Hendrick's 2009 organization the strongest I'd seen since Junior Johnson's team in the late '70's/early 80's. If that comes off as sounding ungrateful to Roush, well that's his fault for never having a team that ridiculously good. 826. KBM18 posted: 01.19.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I swear I had read that Kurt was going to run 20 races for KBM, but when I went back to the NASCAR.com article that had that information, it had been updated and no longer has a definite number of races for each driver. So I'm guessing that might have just been an estimated number tossed out by Kyle, because they are still hammering out the details. Still, I don't think Kyle will run any more than maybe 14 to 17 races, and none of them will happen after the start of the Chase, as per his sponsor and team requests. Plus he's not running any Truck races this year. So it's a start." I just read an article that puts Kyle at "13 or 14" Nationwide races this year, which like you said, is pretty much Earnhardt ran for a number of years, when the schedule was actually shorter. But I'm sure plenty of people will still complain about it. At least Kurt had sense enough to not run for the Nationwide title, even though he has no shot in Cup. http://www.sbnation.com/nascar/2012/1/19/2719326/kyle-busch-kurt-nascar-nationwide-series-monster-energy-2012 827. cjs3872 posted: 01.19.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, it's good to hear that Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. will have a chance to defend his Nationwide title, as well as run in the 2012 Daytona 500, giving the Nationwide Series a fifth legitimate championship contender, along with the four I already mentioned, but we now know that the 12-15 races that Trevor Bayne will supposedly run for the Wood Brothers, as well as a few Nationwide races may be his only races this coming season. I do wonder if Roush will supply Bayne with the #6 car for the Bud Shootout and/or the All-Star Race, since he is eligible for both. After all, it's almost certain that the Wood Brothers will skip the Shootout and probably the All-Star Race as well, as they usually focus on the points races. Or will Bayne get short-shrifted for those races? And I don't see how having Kyle Busch in the Nationwide Series can possibly hurt a series that doesn't have enough quality drivers and cars to begin with, and then keeps losing some it already had (2 RWR cars, 1 Turner Motorsports car, 1 Roush car, and only adding one or two quality cars for a deficit of at least two quality cars). It can only help that series. Sure it might hurt the drivers contending for the title that are trying to win races, but as far as legitimate drivers and teams are concerned, having a driver like Kyle Busch can only help matters, as far as the competition is concerned, especially if Kyle is going to be driving a car he owns. After all, what Kyle Busch is apparently going to do, driving his own car next year, is no different from what Darrell Waltrip, Dale Earnhardt, Ken Schrader, and others did years ago, driving in a lower series for teams they owned, and not for a Cup team going down to the Nationwide Series. 828. AlmirolaFan51/88/43 posted: 01.19.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm predicting Kurt & Kyle combine for 12 wins this coming season. (Kyle 7, Kurt 5) That's one race more than 1/3 of the entire NNS schedule. The NNS regulars already have a headache to deal with in Ricky Stenhouse Jr returning to defend his title. Still, I like this move for all parties involved. Especially Monster Energy. With them being able to pry NOS away from Kyle, and Red Bull fading away from the sport, it makes them the most dominant Energy Drink brand in the NASCAR garage. Having the Busch Brothers split a Nationwide car is the icing on the cake. With no offense to Ricky Carmichael, it was time to move on. He showed little to no signs of improvement in the Truck Series. 829. Scott B posted: 01.20.2012 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #827, I don't think there is much incentive to run Bayne in the All-Star race. The Shootout is a different story. Since it's the first test of the new rules under actual race conditions, it would be helpful to have him run it. That might depend on whethr Roush is willing to help with the expenses, though, I don't see the Wood Brothers paying the full cost out of their own pockets to run an exhibition when they are skipping points races. 830. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2012 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, there goes any chance of Kyle accomplishing anything of importance in Cup this year. I thought JGR would severly limit KyBu's outside racing ventures. But he didn't (more on this in a second). He will be running many Saturdays, wearing himself down emotionally, and crack in the Fall. Plus his other driver is KuBu. He is a gigantic dick to start with, but he will really act up this year since he has a lot to prove after mutually agreeing to get fired by Roger Penske. He'll act up, and Kyle will have to smooth things over with his sponsors. Sure he'll win anywhere from 3-5 Cup races. But he won't ultimately matter. Not like JJ, Gordon, and Smoke do. Even though he has talent as good, if not BETTER than their's. And top rate equipment. He should be putting up numbers like Gordon did in the mid to late 90s. And winning multiple championships. But he hasn't. And he won't start this year. More wasted potential. As for Coach Gibbs, I have the utmost respect for him as a human being. He is a way better person than I will ever be. But the fact is he is gutless. He is sitting on a potential gold mine of championship trophies with Kyle, but he simply will not rein him in. He will only do what is minimally needed to pacify the sponsors. He needs to sit him down, chew his ass out, and wave his 3 Super Bowl rings in his face, point out his 3 Cup championship trophies, and remind Kyle that he has accomplished NOTHING! 831. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2012 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kurt's been doing that with Penske, talking about how great it is to have Hendrick engines and chassis'. Just wait until it dawns on him that he's with the dead last team on the Hendrick totem pole with a budget no where near Penske's or Roush's." Exactly. Or when it dawns on him Rick remembers all those insulting comments he made publically towards HMS over the years, and gives Phoenix even WORSE engines than they have been getting. HMS knows which engines have the most horsepower and they know who to give them to. After Dega last year, when it was obvious JJ and Gordon were out of the title hunt and Dale Jr is still Dale Jr, Tony magically started having the best engines on the track for the last 4 races, as evidenced by him outhorsepowering JJ down the back stretch at Martinsville (I know he almost got lapped early, but that was cause the handling was off, once that got fixed his horsepower put him over the top). Kurt running next to JJ or Gordon on the straightaway this year will look like me running next to Usain Bolt (I'm slow even for a white guy). 832. cjs3872 posted: 01.20.2012 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Scott B, Roush has already announced that he's going to run the #6 car in the Daytona 500 with Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., so it would make sense for him to run Bayne in the Shootout if the Wood Brothers don't, if only to give that particular team some experience, even if it is with another driver. And I'm not sure Roush really wants Bayne to succeed after what happened in the Daytona 500 last year (he won instead of Carl Edwards, who was actually driving for Roush in the 500), a fact that was evidenced by what happened at Taladega last fall, when his Ford orders kept him, and any other non-Roush Ford from having a real chance to win. Frankly, I don't see Bayne being with Roush much longer anyway, due to sponsorship issues. If they aren't cleared up by mid-season, I see him with a Chevrolet team (Earnhardt-Ganassi perhaps), or possibly even a Joe Gibbs Racing Toyota in 2013. As for the All-Star Race, we'll sse what happens there if the Wood Brothers don't compete in a race they once won (with Michael Waltrip in 1996), whether or not Roush enters the #6 car for that event, since Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. is also eligible to compete in the Sprint Showdown. If it's entered in the Sprint Showdown and not in the All-Star Race with Bayne eligible, we'll know where Bayne really stands with Roush, considering that at this time, he's scheduled for more Cup races (12-16) than he is Nationwide races (about 10-12) for 2012. 833. Talon64 posted: 01.20.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, there goes any chance of Kyle accomplishing anything of importance in Cup this year. I thought JGR would severly limit KyBu's outside racing ventures. But he didn't (more on this in a second). He will be running many Saturdays, wearing himself down emotionally, and crack in the Fall." To be fair, it turns out Kyle's not going to run more than 14 races and we don't know what his schedule's going to be. I'd bet that Kyle's races will be early in the year and Kurt will take the lions share of the races during the Chase. Plus, JGR put their foot down on Kyle running any Truck races this season. I think Kyle only put Leffler in the #18 so he could point at him and tell Joe "This is what I have to settle with now!" but it didn't work. That means he'll be going from the 45 NNS/Truck races a year that he averaged since joining JGR to just 14 this year. Then again, how can a driver possibly win a Cup championship when they're running 14 Nationwide races in the same season? http://www.racing-reference.info/drivdet/kensema01/2003/B It'll be interesting if having to deal with owning an NNS team now, along with his Truck team, will be anything of a distraction (apparently Harvick thought so, although his results the last 2 years would've suggested otherwise). But as far as Kyle's workload of NNS/Truck races, this is a huge step in the right direction. It also leaves him with no excuses come Chase time. 834. cjs3872 posted: 01.20.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except Talon64, that Kyle Busch does not have what it takes to thrive when the pressure is highest, since that takes the hidden ability to be cool under fire, something Kyle has not ever shown that he has in him. Most of the drivers that have won championships and big races have one thing in common, and that is that they're cool under fire. Even the drivers that scored their first win in the big events last year did so because they didn't buckle under pressure. For instance, between the Nationwide and Cup series race he ran last year, Trevor Bayne had chances to win only four times. He won two of them, got outdrafted in one, and team orders prevented him from having a chance to claim one. His win in the fall Nationwide Series race at Texas was right out of the book of David Pearson, as he just hung around al day, but when it mattered, he was able to take the lead and the win away from an obviously stronger car with a better driver driving it (Carl Edwards). Then there's Regan Smith. He did not have many chances to win, but when he ran up front, he took advantage, winning the 62nd Southern 500. Also, he ran his best in the biggest races, also running up front in the Daytona 500 and finishing third in the Brickyard 400. By the way, no driver named Smith has ever raced in the Indianapolis 500, and Regan finished third in the NASCAR race there last year. That race was won by Paul Menard, another driver that was cool when he had his shot, which has been the only real chance he's had at victory in his entire Cup career, though he has had other top five finishes on big tracks. But my point is that Bayne, Smith, and Menard are drivers with cool heads who don't get flustered, while drivers like the Busch brothers seem to get upset if there's a hair in the wrong place. The fact that Kurt won a championship is a tribute to Jimmy Fennig, the same Jimmy Fennig that won the 1988 Daytona 500 with Bobby Allison (speaking of difficult drivers to get along with). But it's highly doubtful that Kyle Busch will ever win a championship in NASCAR's highest series, not because he's not good enough, but rather because he can't handle the pressure. Why do you think Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Jimmie Johnson have combined to win 12 championships, including the last seven, and have become the thre winningest drivers on the circuit. It's because all three of them are cool under fire. (Yes, Stewart has been a hothead over the years, but rarely ever carries that on to the track. On the track, he's as cool under fire as anyone else is.) 835. 18fan posted: 01.20.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony has had his hotheadedness cost him a few times on the racetrack. 2008 Kansas he tried to wreck Brian Vickers after a pit road incident and ended up wrecking himself and costing himself laps, he spent half of the 2006 Las Vegas race trying to mess with Kyle Busch and cost himself a lot of spots. The one time it looked like he cracked under pressure was the 2008 Daytona 500 when he pulled down to pick up his teammate Kyle Busch, who wasn't close enough to Tony to give him the help he needed to hold off Ryan Newman. 836. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.20.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, there goes any chance of Kyle accomplishing anything of importance in Cup this year. I thought JGR would severly limit KyBu's outside racing ventures. But he didn't (more on this in a second). He will be running many Saturdays, wearing himself down emotionally, and crack in the Fall." Dale Earnhardt won at least three of his titles while running a dozen Nationwide races or more. Matt Kenseth won a title while running 14 Nationwide races. Plus it's not like Kyle is guaranteed a championship as soon as he stops running these other races altogether. But at least you've found a way to feel smug about something that hasn't even happened yet. -And I just looked this up to confirm- Dale Earnhardt, Nationwide races run in title years: 80 - 0 86 - 11 87 - 10 90 - 14 91 - 13 93 - 9 94 - 12 So.... how is what Busch is doing any different? I think you just like to be negative, always looking at everything in a black and white, worst-possible-scenario or best-possible-scenario with nothing in between, type of way. To you, there's no chance that Kyle runs a solid chase, and ends up second of third. It's either he wins every chase race so you can say "I told you so, he's the best, all those extra races were holding him back" or he finishes dead last so you can say, "I told you so, Nationwide is still holding him back, he can't handle the pressure come Chase time". So I guess what's most important is you've set yourself up with a nifty self-fulfilling prophecy that allows you to be right no matter how the season turns out. Because that's what's important to you, being right, not being rational. 837. cjs3872 posted: 01.20.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree, 18fan. Tony's hotheadedness has cost him, most notably in the 2006 Daytona 500, but he's gotten a lot better over the years, and I think a lot of it has to do with him being a car owner. He's still as intense and focused as ever (as the 2011 Chase shows), but his hotheadedness doesn't show on the track nearly as much as it once did. 838. Anonymous posted: 01.21.2012 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @TheChaseBlowsChunks, This site does not have any stats of drivers when the Nationwide was called the NASCAR Late Model Sportman Division. I got got from another race site from the past is cup drivers actually raced in the Nascar Late Model Sportman Division including Dave Marcis and Richard Childress despite being cup drivers. The cup cup drivers didn't enter every race. The catch is that site really doesn't have results of NASCAR Late Model Sportman Division anymore. That means there is no telling if Earnhardt did any NASCAR Late Model Sportman Division races in 1980. 839. Spen posted: 01.21.2012 - 4:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, ultimateracinghistory.com has results for most of the Sportsman races from 77-81. Plus data for a handful of the 'big' races going back to the mid-60's. According to their data, Earhardt ran only the fall Charlotte companion race. He also raced a Grand American race before the World 600. 840. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.21.2012 - 5:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look at Jeff Gordon, prior to the spread of wealth due to Hendrick having 4 cars, Jeff Gordon's two worst years came in what 2 years? 1999 and 2000, the two years he ran Busch Series races (although, like many others, he kicked butt). 841. awesomegordonfan posted: 01.21.2012 - 6:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think that Kyle running in the Nationwide series affects him. There's little competition for him, but he learns a lot for the Cup race (unless it rains overnight). Look at Carl Edwards. He ran all but a few Nationwide races and tied for the championship win. Kyle just has too much emotion to be very competitive in Cup. His only good races come on tracks that you have to be aggressive: Richmond and Bristol. (He sucks at MVille). Other than that, he's basically Junior with a temper. 842. Eric posted: 01.21.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) awesomegordonfan, You can't really can't say Kyle sucks at Martinsville. He has 6 top 5's and 7 top 10's in 14 races there. Kyle is good at Dover with him having 2 wins, 7 top 5's, and 9 top 10's in 14 starts. Kyle matter of fact got 10 of 23 career cup wins at Bristol, Richmond, and Dover combined. 843. 18fan posted: 01.21.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When he was at Hendrick Kyle sucked at Martinsville. Since the 2009 fall race though, he has only finished outside the top 5 when he got wrecked. 844. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The difference is that Dale could handle it. He quit after '94 because the schedule of Cup races kept increasing, as did the demands on drivers away from the track. So he backed out. And Matt could handle it because he is wired well enough not tolet an NWide incident derail his focus. I am not saying ANY driver can't be successful while running a bunch of NWide races. I am saying KYLE BUSCH can never reach his full potential while doing so much outside racing. It just wears him down. Look at his 2010 Texas meltdown. It started because he was still frustrated about losing to Carl the day before cause he felt Carl jumped the start. He cussed out the media, then gave the double bird the next day. HE can't handle it. Again, compare his numbers to Jeff Gordon's numbers at the same age. And remember Jeff started 2 years older than Kyle did (he turned 22 his rookie year while Kyle turned 20). Even with the extra 2 years, Gordon makes him look weak comparitively. Yet Kyle has at least as much natural abilitiy as Jeff (if not more) and top of the line equipment like Jeff had. 845. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.21.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Again, compare his numbers to Jeff Gordon's numbers at the same age. And remember Jeff started 2 years older than Kyle did (he turned 22 his rookie year while Kyle turned 20). Even with the extra 2 years, Gordon makes him look weak comparitively. Yet Kyle has at least as much natural abilitiy as Jeff (if not more) and top of the line equipment like Jeff had." Has it ever occurred to you that Gordon is simply a better driver? It's a novel concept, I know. But instead of measuring Busch against him on some impossible to prove or explain criteria (he's more talented, because I say so!), why not just look at the numbers instead? If they really are in similar equipment (another thing almost impossible to prove down to the tenths, hundredths, or thousandths of second necessary), it's pretty obvious that Gordon is just a better driver. (It's also become obvious that in your mind, a race team consists solely of a driver, and a car whose speed is determined by your own estimated value of each team's strength in any given year. Crew chiefs, car chiefs, engineers, and pit crews obviously in no way factor into your mind) But I know why you won't let this go, it's because using your opinion of Busch being more talented let's you talk endlessly about he's a failure and not living up to his potential. It let's you gloss over the 23 wins, because it SHOULD be 50+ with 3 titles by now, because YOU said so. But it's not. Gordon is a better driver, and every measurable statistic proves it. Only your unmeasurable opinions do not. Well you know what, I think Dale Earnhardt is a failure. With his out of this world talent, he should have had 120 wins, and 10 or more championships. The fact that he did not live up to this potential means you can no longer call him one of the best of all time. While we're at it, Richard Petty is a failure too. 200 wins and ONLY 7 championships? Come on, with those numbers you'd think he could have at least won 14 or 15 championships. Richard Petty is a failure. -Courtesy of the DaleSrFanForever School of Pulling Unmeasurable Numbers Out Of Your A$$ 846. ii posted: 01.21.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Again, compare his numbers to Jeff Gordon's numbers at the same age. And remember Jeff started 2 years older than Kyle did (he turned 22 his rookie year while Kyle turned 20). Even with the extra 2 years, Gordon makes him look weak comparitively. Yet Kyle has at least as much natural abilitiy as Jeff (if not more) and top of the line equipment like Jeff had." Naturability my ass. Where are the wins? I can tell you are a Busch suck-up. "Well you know what, I think Dale Earnhardt is a failure. With his out of this world talent, he should have had 120 wins, and 10 or more championships. The fact that he did not live up to this potential means you can no longer call him one of the best of all time. While we're at it, Richard Petty is a failure too. 200 wins and ONLY 7 championships? Come on, with those numbers you'd think he could have at least won 14 or 15 championships. Richard Petty is a failure. -Courtesy of the DaleSrFanForever School of Pulling Unmeasurable Numbers Out Of Your A$$" Dale Earnhardt raced in seasons with less than 34 races in each, which is why his win total was so low. Also, his era was a lot more competitive than the '60s and early '70s. Petty had so many wins because they raced 50-60 races per season and they (as well as the Wood Brothers, and maybe K&K with Bobby Issac) were the only top-notch teams of their time. "awesomegordonfan, You can't really can't say Kyle sucks at Martinsville. He has 6 top 5's and 7 top 10's in 14 races there. Kyle is good at Dover with him having 2 wins, 7 top 5's, and 9 top 10's in 14 starts. Kyle matter of fact got 10 of 23 career cup wins at Bristol, Richmond, and Dover combined." Whenever he doesn't do good at these tracks, he gets pissed and crys like a little baby. Then, he crashes. I really don't blame M&M's for leaving. "Well, there goes any chance of Kyle accomplishing anything of importance in Cup this year. I thought JGR would severly limit KyBu's outside racing ventures. But he didn't (more on this in a second). He will be running many Saturdays, wearing himself down emotionally, and crack in the Fall." Hasn't this cycle occured every year? Kyle dominates the Nationwide and bores the hell out of all the fans at the same time, then crys all Sunday because he isn't winning. It's not NCAA football. You're not on LSU or 'Bama winning every week. Racing is a lot more competitive, and you have a lot less than a 1/2 chance at winning. "Kurt running next to JJ or Gordon on the straightaway this year will look like me running next to Usain Bolt (I'm slow even for a white guy)." Until he gets fired because he doesn't like being a field-filler. Then, he'll be slower than the start-and-parks in the Nationwide Series. "I don't think that Kyle running in the Nationwide series affects him. There's little competition for him, but he learns a lot for the Cup race (unless it rains overnight). Look at Carl Edwards. He ran all but a few Nationwide races and tied for the championship win. Kyle just has too much emotion to be very competitive in Cup. His only good races come on tracks that you have to be aggressive: Richmond and Bristol. (He sucks at MVille). Other than that, he's basically Junior with a temper." Give me a break. When does Kyle learn anything when he wins every race? He does it to ruin Michael McDowell's bland future in NASCAR. 847. ii posted: 01.21.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, I mean "natural ability", not "naturability." 848. 18fan posted: 01.21.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Where are the wins?" Since his rookie year in 2005 only Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart have won more races than Kyle has. Now only two of Kyle's 23 wins have been in September or later and those were both in his rookie year. 849. cjs3872 posted: 01.21.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii (#846), it seems a history lesson is in order here, because there were plenty of top-notch teams in the glory days of Richard Petty. You mentioned the Wood Brothers and Nord Krauskopf's K&K Insurance teams, but you forgot a bunch of others. Among them were Holman-Moody, Cotton Owens, Banjo Matthews, Junior Johnson (two different incarnations), Bud Moore Engineering, Ray Nichels, L.G. DeWitt (when Benny Parsons drove for him), DiGard Racing, and Mario Rossi all had teams capable of competing for wins back in the heyday of Richard Petty. The reason Petty won so many races and championships was not only the fact that there were betwen 45-60 races in a given year when Petty dominated prior to 1972 and 30 races after that (and he won about one-third of the races from 1972-'75), but that many of the top teams didn't run the full season. For instance, the Wood Brothers didn't run the full season until Richard Petty's son Kyle joined them in 1985, Holman-Moody only ran the full season two or three times, winning the championship twice with David Pearson, Banjo Matthwes never ran the full season, Junior Johnson's first incarnation never ran the full season, Nord Krauskopf's K&K Insurance team didn't run the full season after winning the championship in 1970, Cotton Owens only ran the full season twice, winning the title in 1964 with Pearson, Bud Moore didn't run the full season for nearly a decade after the deaths of Joe Weatherly and Billy Wade, and didn't run NASCAR at all from 1969-'71, Ray Nichels never ran the full season. there were plenty of top-echelon teams back in Petty's heyday, but not many of them ran the full season. And Dale Earnhardt's win total was relatively low (76) because of stronger competition, and the fact that there were certain types of tracks he was weak on. And also, when he got a big point lead, he would play it conservative, racing just to protect his point lead instead of going all-out for wins, though if the opportunity presented itself, he'd certainly try to win, but he wouldn't take any chances if he had a big point lead, either. That's illustrated by the fact that he had almost as many second place finishes (70) as he had wins (76). In fact, Earnhardt wasn't even the winningest driver of his era. That distinction belongs to Darrell Waltrip, who won 84 times. Another thing about Earnhardt was the fact that most of the drivers he raced against did not exactly have strong wills, and could be intimidated by him. Bill Elliott, Mark Martin, Darrell Waltrip, and Terry Labonte come to mind. Mark Martin even created the "move over" style of driving to counter Earnhardt's aggressiveness on the track as a way to make sure that he wouldn't get taken out by the more aggressive drivers. Those that weren't intimidated, like Rusty Wallace and Jeff Gordon, usually beat him as often, if not more often than he beat them. And that's why Earnhardt never really did that well against Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, Cale Yarborough, and a younger Darrell Waltrip. Because he couldn't intimidate them, and if he couldn't intimidate you, he had a hard time beating you. Earnhardt only won 11 times during the time that Petty, Yarborough, Allison, and Waltrip were at the top of their games, and only won 13 times when Jeff Gordon got on his game, as well as Dale Jarrett. Drivers that weren't intimidated by Earnhardt stood a better than average chance at beating him, and the facts bear that out. 850. Anonymous posted: 01.22.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Why are you keep ignoring that Earnhardt got hurt 3 times from 1996 to his death including racing with a neck injury from July 1996 to end of the 1999 season? That meant you don't know how many times Earnhardt would have won from 1996 to his death if he didn't get hurt and the fact RCR was falling behind at the same time. Earnhardt's injuries affected him from Talladega Superspeedway in July 1996 to the time Dale final had surgery after the 1999 season. Dale had problems physically that was caused by that crash, but he was so stubborn that he didn't get surgery sooner. Dale had neck problems after the Talladega crash matter of fact before he had surgery after the 1999 season. Dale had several different injuries from that 1996 Talladega crash besides that neck injury. Dale Jarrett's prime happened when Dale was not healthy. I consider Dale Jarrett's prime 1996 to 2002. Jeff Gordon only raced Dale 2 full years in Jeff's peak that Dale was completely healthy. The other thing you ignored is Earnhardt's age at the time Dale Jarrett and Jeff Gordon hit their prime. Dale was already almost 44 when the 1995 season started and was almost 45 when the 1996 season started. Father time affected quite a bit of divers around that age based looking back at history of Nascar. While it appeared Earnhardt might have won the 1996 championship if that Telladega crash never happened, the fact is Dale had better seasons in years past anyway. While Earnhardt had glimpses of Harry Gant and Mark Martin in terms of being very competitive into their 50's, there is no way to prove for sure what a healthy Dale Earnhardt could do from 1996 to 1999 at time Richard Childress was falling behind. I could argue that 1996 would have been Earnhardt's last shot getting a cup championship if he stayed healthy before 2000 came along because of RCR. It is possible that Earnhardt could finished higher in points in 1999 if more healthy, but 1997 and 1998 is a different matter. Larry McReynolds and Earnhardt combination had problems and it still would have issues if Dale was healthy because it was a bad crew chief and driver combination. 851. 18fan posted: 01.22.2012 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #850, I don't know what it was about Earnhardt and Kevin Hamlin as a driver-crew chief pair, but once Dale paired with Kevin at Michigan in the spring of 1998 his results improved and Dale then went on to win 3 races in 1999 and 2 more in 2000. Dale Jarrett was around the same age as Earnhardt during Jarrett's prime, DJ was just an extremely late bloomer. 852. cjs3872 posted: 01.22.2012 - 2:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#850), even before Earnhardt got hurt at Talladega in 1996, his team was going downhill. That incident only sped up the process. He had won two of the first four race of that season, but his performance quickly went downhill after that in 1996. But you could tell, even in Earnhardt's final championship year in 1994, that there were signs that Hendrick had caught up with Earnhardt and Childress. After all, in the last 20 races of 1994, Hendrick won four times, twice each with Jeff Gordon and Terry Labonte, while Earnhardt only won once. As for the age question where Earnhardt was concerned, that was a non-factor. After all, some of Bobby Allison's best years were between the ages of 43-46, including his 1983 championship season, and all but two of Harry Gant's 18 wins came after his 44th birthday, with nearly half of them coming after his 50th birthday. When I consider a driver at or over the hill has nothing to do with age, but rather the number of starts he's made, and the number 500 is a key number to that end for modern-era drivers. Usually when a driver makes his 500th start, it means he's on the downside of his career, and when he makes his 550th start, for whatever reason he's just not the same. Another number to look at when looking at a driver's competitiveness is 17, as in 17 seasons. Usually a driver's last great season is his 17th. After that, he generally goes downhill. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but a driver generally has 17 good seasons in the sport. Earnhardt is an example of that. His last great season was 1995, his 17th. The same is true regarding Darrell Waltrip. His last great season was 1989, which was his 17th season. David Pearson's last great season was in 1976, which also happened to be HIS 17th season. Notice a pattern here? Even Rusty Wallace's last big season, which was 2000, was his 17th on the circuit. That's one reason why I think Jeff Gordon will soon start to lose at least some of his competitiveness, possibly as soon as this year, but more likely 2013. Last year was his 19th, and his 19th season compares favorably to that of Waltrip, Earnhardt, and Pearson. Earnhardt, in fact, went winless in his 19th season (1997), while Waltrip won twice in his 19th season (1991). Sure crashes had a lot to do with this, but even drivers that did not have big crashes saw their competitiveness dull by his 18th and 19th seasons. Pearson was another classic example. After winning three times in 1978, his 19th year on the circuit, he only won twice more, both times at his best track, Darlington, and one of those races barely made it to half distance. Even Bobby Alison's competitveness began to wane after the 1983 season, which was his 18th. After his 1983 championship season, in which he won six times, he only won five more times before his injuries at Pocono ended his career, but it's quite possible that, even if he hadn't been injured, that he had seen his final victory. A driver only has so many years and so many races that he can be at the top of his game, and the number of years he's at the top if his game is usually about 17, and the number of starts usually ranges from about 500-550, after which he goes downhill. History tells you that. 853. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.22.2012 - 5:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs: One thing that we need to wait for to confirm your theory is to see whether or not Jeff falls off in the next few years. Because of the drivers you mentioned with the 17-year rule, we can't say yet whether it is the 17 years, or the age, but I think it varies from driver to driver. 854. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.22.2012 - 5:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh for f***s sake, you guys realize I was being sarcastic when talking about Earnhardt's "low" win total, right? I was trying to make a point about the fallacy of that type of argument. I didn't mean to set off a whole tangent about Earnhardt somehow being an underachiever. 855. cjs3872 posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, TheChaseBlowsChunks, I don't think you were sarcacstic at all when you referred to Dale Earnhardt's victory total as "low", because when you consider the fact that Earnhardt won seven championships, finished second in the standings three times (1989, '95, 2000), and finished in the top five in the standings 11 of 12 years from 1986-'97 (the only exception being 1992 when he was 12th), his victory total of 76 was a bit low, especially when you consider that Bobby Allison won 85 times, yet only won the championship once. And as I mentioned, Earnhardt wasn't even the winningest driver of his gerenration (Darrell Waltrip won eight more races). For someone who supposedly towered over the sport for a decade against weaker willed competition that could be easily intimidated, Earnhardt should have won a lot more than he did. And NicoRosbergFan, as I mentioned, there are exceptions to that 17-year rule, but generally, you look at when a great driver begins to go downhill, you'll notice that for many of them, their last great season ranged between their 16th and 19th, and for many of them, it was year number 17. Still, it is strange that four of the eight winningest drivers in history (Pearson, Waltrip, Earnhardt, and Wallace) be their 17th. And Jeff Gordon has already gone against the grain on that, as he had a great year, especially by his recent rate of success, last season, which was his 19th, yet he won two more races last year than he did in the previous three seasons combined. Another driver who went downhill at that time in his career that I neglected to mention was Terry Labonte, who won his second title in his 18th year and went downhill fast after that. So as I said in that post, the determining factor in when a driver's performance goes downhill isn't his actual age, but rather starts and years in the sport. But also remember that Richard Petty won twice in his 25th year in 1984 (I don't count 1965, since he was part of the Chrysler boycott of the sport that year). Also, Ricky Rudd was winning races in his 25th year, as well and one of Mark Martin's biggest years came in his 24th year (2009, when he won five times and finished second in the championship standings), if you count 1982-'83, when he was just starting. So as you mentioned, NicoRosbergFan, the 17-year rule doesn't apply to everyone, but what's surprising is just how many of the sport's elite drivers over the years have experienced a downturn in their performance after their 17th year. And another poster mentioned Dale Jarrett's downgrade in performance. That had a lot to do with Jack Roush's sabotaging of the other Ford teams beginning in 2003, Robert Yates included, though age and experience was a factor, as well. 856. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright TheChaseBlowsChunks. First off, I love your name. Secondly, I was hoping to avoid writing a doctoral dissertation on Kyle's inadequacies when it comes to actually getting results because I thought they were self evident. And that comparing him to Jeff Gordon at the same age would just hammer that point home even better. They are very comparable as for their paths to NASCAR in my opinion. But apparently that isn't enough, so here we go. I will now compare what each did at the same age, starting with their early years. And for the record, when I put "Age 22" for example, I am speaking of the year in which Kyle and Jeff turned 22 respectively. Early years: Each was groomed to be a race car driver while barely out of diapers. The difference is Kyle's Dad had him (and his brother) on course to be a stock car driver, while Jeff's stepfather (who I'll refer to as his Dad) had him on a direct path to the Indy 500. By the time Kyle came along, Kurt was already 7 and being trained by their Dad. Kyle followed suit, driving go karts and eventually racing Legends cars with fake birth certificates. This, along with Kurt's success, got Kyle into racing in the NASCAR Truck Series at age 16 for powerhouse Roush Racing. NASCAR quickly put an age limit up in their typical retroactive fashion. This led to 17 year old Kyle running a full season in the ASA circuit, being swiped by Hendrick, and put in ARCA racing at the tracks the big Series races on, leading to him running his first Busch/NWide race the Saturday after he turned 18. He ran a lot of races in that Series, before taking over the defending championship car for 2004, the year he turned 19, while running 7 Cup races. This led to him his rookie season at age 20. On the other hand, Jeff grew up in the 1970s in Northern California (insert joke here) while him and his Dad had their sights on the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Memorial Day weekend. Jeff was in quarter midgets at age 4 and won everything imaginable. From there, once he became a teenager, it was about following in the footsteps of people like AJ Foyt. Jeff would run sprint/midget cars, hone his craft, show his talent, and be given a top ride in Indy Cars leading to him winning the Indy 500 and drinking the milk. Unfortunately, like Kyle, he ran into age issues in California. So instead of forging a birth cirtificate, his family simply moved to Indiana when he was 14 where he lived for all of 4 years (leading to him being labled a "Hoosier"). He took up those sprint cars almost immediately, winning everywhere, on all surfaces at a very young age, becoming a star of ESPN's Thursday Night racing features. Everything was coming together just as planned. Excpet they ran into a major snag. Indy Car had become basically what NASCAR is today. You had to have money to begin with, and lots of it, to break in. Jeff's Dad had a nice business, but not THAT profitable. He couldn't break in, and at age 19 was already spinning his wheels. Then he got the chance to do basically a fluff piece for ESPN where he would go to Rockingham and try his hand at stock cars at the Buck Baker Racing School. Desperate to keep his name out there, Jeff agreed. Then fate happened. Jeff loved it. The combination of that and his open wheel career going nowhere (with plenty of NASCAR opportunities) led Jeff to NASCAR for his first full time Busch season at age 20. All of 4 months after sitting in a stock car for the first time. This sets up our comparison, from Age 20 to 26. I will do this in another post to avoid the content limit. 857. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Age 20: With a ton of stock car experience under his belt already, Kyle starts his rookie season in Cup in 2005 with powerhouse Hendrick Motorsports and crew chief Alan Gustafson. He is very fast but inconsistent. He wins twice, including to date his only victory in the last 10 races of any season. He finishes 20th in points while teammates Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon win 4 races each. JJ battles for the Cup down the stretch before coming unglued at Homestead. Jeff misses the cha$e entirely with a very erratic season. And Brian Vickers is Brian Vickers. Not a bad start at all. Meanwhile, in 1991, Jeff starts his stock car career with all of 2 stock car races under his belt. He is driving for Bill Davis who has won many races in the previous years with stock car vet Mark Martin. Jeff goes winless and is basically midpack as he struggles to get a hold of stock cars and wrecks a lot (he famously wrecked coming to the finish line at Dover that year, and finished the race by crossing the finish line in reeverse). Age 21: The start of a trend for Kyle. He has a pretty good 2nd year, winning once in the summer and easily making the cha$e. But he wrecks himself out of the first cha$e race then blows an engine in the 2nd one, leading him to provlaim "we're done" in points with 8 races still to go. He finishes 10th of 10 cha$e drivers. His teammate JJ finds himself in 8th place in points with just FIVE races left. Does he give up? Nope, he roars back to win the title. Gordon wins twice with new crew chief LeTarte and has a decent cha$e showing. Jeff, at the same age, runs his second Busch season, but his first with crew chief Ray Evernham. He wins 3 races, gets a Top 5 points finish, wins half the poles, and gets offered a ride at not quite powerhouse Hendrick Motorsports. He gets to run his first Cup race in the last race of the season, the 1992 Hooter's 500. You may have heard about that race. Age 22: Kyle wins the first COT race at tough Bristol (its last race as the true Britol). But he self destructs at Texas (beginning another trend), wrecking himself and then storming out of the track. The crew gets the car fixed, but he is long gone. So they have to get Dale Jr, whom he wrecked into ending his day for good, to finish it out. That seals his fate at HMS. He doesn't win again for HMS e3ven though he enjoys his finest cha$e effort: a distant 5th. His teammates JJ and Gordon combine to win SIXTEEN races that year and finish 1-2 in points, miles ahead of anyone else. Jeff, in 1993, starts his rookie season in Cup. He runs fast almost everywhere, but wrecks over and over. Most of the time he is just pushing too hard as he is still trying to get a grip on stock cars and shed 15 years of racing habits acquired in open wheel cars. Some of the time he simply gets run over by guys who don't want to be patient with the golden child who didn't have to "pay his dues" (Mikey at Darlington, Dale at Phoenix). The only HMs win that year is from Ricky Rudd in a fuel mileage win at Michigan. Age 23: Kyle goes to JGR who has just gone to Toyotas and lights the friggin world on fire. He wins 8 of the first 22 races while running over everyone in sight. This comes back to haunt him. He could have pushed his win total to 10 but his agressiveness comes back to haunt him as Carl bumps him out of the way at Bristol, and Dale Jr retaliates at Richmond for the Spring Richmond race. As for the cha$e, he starts off with 3 mechanical failures. From there, he just throws in the towel. Instead of going "Tony Stewart in '06" and saying "I may be out of the points, but I'm still gonna kick ass, he just fades away while his teammates with a combined win total of 2 finish ahead of him in points. As for Jeff, he finally gets traction in Cup. Still inconsistent, but he ironically wins on Memorial Day, then wins the first NASCAR race at IMS. His new teammate, Texas Terry wins 3 races and finishes Top 5 in points. HMS gets beat once again by RCR in the last year of the Chevy Luminas which HMS never really figured out. 858. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2012 - 10:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Age 24: Kyle knocks off 3 early dominating wins, but self destruccts (notice a pattern yet) eventually missing the playoffs losing a battle with the immortal Brian Vickers. Once again, with the chance to go "Smoke in '06" he just kinda fades into the backdrop as Denny Hamlin, his teammate, comes into his own, matching Kyls'e win total of 4 and getting a Top 5 points finish despite 2 blown engines in the final 10. As for Jeff, he finally gets a grip on stock cars. The combo of that, the new Monte Carlos, and HMSs rise to powerhouse status, Jeff kicks off the most eye popping 5 year stretch of the modern era. He wins 7 times, leads almost 3000 laps, and beats Earnhardt head to head for the beautiful solver 25th Winston Cup trophy. He has arrived. Age 25: Kyle wins 3 times, makes it back to the playoffs, hangs on in the points for a while, but falls apart late, leading to yet another Texas meltdown, and a 7th place points finish. Meanwhile Denny wins 8 times and damn near overturns the 48 juggernaut before Mike Ford and Denny choked. But they still finished 2nd. In 1996 Jeff wins 10 races of just 31 and finishes a heartbreaking 2nd in points due to his teammates consistency. Age 26: kyle wins 4 races and is a title favorite going in. On the Labor Day weekend race he has a chance to win a million dollar bonus if he can win the race. He runs very poorly and gets lapped. As for the final 10, we all know the story, highlighted by Texas Meltdown III. In 1997, Jeff wins 10 races again, the Daytona 500, the Winston Million, and the championship. He has a chance to win a million bucks if he wins on Labor Day weekend. He gets the job done. Add it up, and Kyle clearly should have at least what Jeff had at the same age. But he doesn't. Not even close. 859. 18fan posted: 01.22.2012 - 12:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, to be fair about Kyle and the Atlanta million dollar opportunity, Atlanta is one of his worst tracks. Outside of his 2008 win, he only has two other top 10 finishes, both 5ths, in 14 races. And in 2007 he could have won both the Atlanta and Texas chase races but at Atlanta, when he was leading, Alan Gustafson decided to change 4 tires under a late caution while Jimmie Johnson and others took 2 tires. The 4 tire call put him back in the pack and in the area to get in the wreck when Denny Hamlin didn't come up to speed and got rammed in the back by Martin Truex, Jr. At Texas Kyle was dominate but had a bad pit stop, still rebounded to be leading when a caution came out with 34 laps to go, and then had another bad pit stop and finished 4th after passing a lot of cars on the last run(That race had a great finish with JJ and Matt Kenseth having a hell of a battle for the lead). Interestingly, with Kyle having serious problems at Texas the last two years, Texas was Kyle's best track in terms of chase performance. In 2006 he finished 4th, his only top 5 of that chase. The aforementioned 2007 race he finished 4th and easily could've won. 2008 he was running second late to the dominate Carl Edwards until he finished 6th in the fuel mileage finish there. He lost two top 5s due to fuel mileage as he finished 19th at Homestead after running out of gas on the last lap running 2nd. 2009 he wasn't in the chase but led 232 laps before running out of gas with 3 laps to go. 860. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.22.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) an update: "Jenna Fryer is reporting on twitter: #NASCAR has apparently given teams the Daytona specs. Grille opening is 2 1/2" x 20",25 psi prv; 29/32" restrictor plate; TEAMS MUST LOWER THE REAR BUMPER BY 2". Based on those specs, from where testing started, The grille opening has been closed up by 1" all the way across to limit air to radiator." What is in all caps is what struck me. Everything they have just done has become redundent. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. WARNING BEATING DEAD HORSE ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 861. 18fan posted: 01.22.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards seems to be the popular pick for the championship this season. His career seems to go in three year cycles: 2005: Wins 4 times, ties for 2nd in points with Greg Biffle behind Tony Stewart. 2006: Misses the chase, 0 wins, 12th in points. 2007: Breaks back into the win column with 3 wins, finishes 9th in points. 2008: Wins 9 times, finishes 2nd in points to Jimmie Johnson. 2009: Squeaks into the chase, is a non-factor during the chase, finishes 11th in points with 0 wins. 2010: Breaks back into the win column with wins in the last 2 races, performance picks up from 2009, finishes 4th in points after a strong chase. 2011: Only wins 1 time, but consistency allows him to mount a serious title challenge and he only loses the title in a tiebreaker after Tony Stewart wins 5 chase races. He mounts a title challenge one year, goes winless the next year, breaks back into the win column the next year, then mounts a title challenge again and the cycle repeats. I remember Carl being the trendy pick for the 2006 championship and then didn't even make the chase. We need to wait until the first few races of the season to determine if Carl will be a threat for the championship. 862. Eric posted: 01.22.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Roush didn't sabotage Yates in 2003 because they didn't have an agreement with them before 2004. Yates was behind in 2003 besides the problems of having 2 driver working with different crew chiefs. Dale Jarrett had signs of decline in 2002 by the fact Dale Jarrett struggled with Jimmy Elledge before getting back to Todd Parrott at Texas in Race 7. Dale Jarrett's steady decline could be pointed from 2000 despite being in his prime. Dale Jarrett's stats in top 5's and top 10's went down every year beginning in 2000 to the end of 2003. The other thing with Dale Jarrett was the fact he had problems working with Crew Chiefs not named Todd Parrott while he was with Yates racing the 88 car. That issue really really came to light in 2003 matter of fact. 863. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) EPIC FAIL 864. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.22.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ravens handed it to the Patriots. GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 865. Anonymous posted: 01.22.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or did the Pats just win with their heads 12 miles up their rears because Baltimore was throwing "Hail Marys" on 2nd & 1? 866. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.22.2012 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Add it up, and Kyle clearly should have at least what Jeff had at the same age. But he doesn't. Not even close." The key word there is "should". He should, because.....why? Because "he's good" and because Jeff Gordon was also "good"? Your entire argument still boils down to "Kyle Busch should have more wins because I say so". The notion that two completely different drivers should have exactly the same or comparable career trajectories simply because they both won at a young age and the media places extra hype on them means absolutely nothing as far as their driving ability. Gordon is better. Busch is good, but doesn't have the same qualities as a driver as Gordon. They aren't the same person, and their careers were never meant to be the same. There's no way to say whether Busch has won more or less races because of who he is. If he was more like Gordon as a driver and a person, he may have won less. If Gordon was like Busch is now, he may have won more. There's nothing you can prove about this, so to use such an intangible argument against Busch just seems ridiculous, and nothing more than a way to hate Busch even more than necessary, for your own shallow, personal reasons. 867. cjs3872 posted: 01.22.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought the agreement betwen Roush and Robert Yates, which led to the demise of Robert Yates Racing, was made in 2003. I guess I was wrong about that. But let's also remember one thing about the drivers that were contemporaries of Jarrett, something that Rusty Wallace once admitted to. Wallace admitted that the death of Dale Earnhardt at the end of the 2001 Daytona 500 took an awful lot out of him emotionally, and he admitted that he had a hard time getting himself to race harder. That same thing is probably what happened to Jarrett, both Bobby and Terry Labonte, though Terry was already on the downslide in 2001. Bill Elliott, Wallace, and Mark Martin were also never the same drivers after Earnhardt's death that they were before his passing. For instance, until 2009, Martin won only four times after Earnhardt's death, Rusty only won twice, Terry Labonte only won once, Jarrett, I believe only won five times, and Bobby Labonte, who had won the champoinship in 2000, only won four or five times. Now it's true that Bill Elliott had somewhat of a resurgence in 2001, but he would have been much more successful with Evernham, and probably stayed with him longer if not for Earnhardt's death. Earnhardt's death on virtually all of his contemporaries and Jarrett was no different. In fact, the mental part of what Earnhardt's fatal crash did is still having an effect on Bobby Labonte,m which is why he hasn't even tried to latch on to a top team since his release from Gibs in 2005, and even his performance there the last three years he was there had waned, and I think it is/was directly linked to Earnhardt's fatal crash at the 2001 Daytona 500. 868. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you just oblivious Chase? Let's see if you can follow this simple flow chart: A) Kyle and Jeff were both groomed to be racers from the time they were toddlers B) both showed prodigal levels of talent at very young ages C) both were given tremendous gifts of talent and opportunities in elite equipment att very young ages D) Jeff took advantage of his gifts, owning victory lane for a long time, behaved and stayed fiercely loyal to Rick. Kyle acted up from day one, burned bridges, cultivated enemies, and has consistently crumbled under pressure because he refuses to work on controlling his emotions. 869. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A) Kyle and Jeff were both groomed to be racers from the time they were toddlers B) both showed prodigal levels of talent at very young ages - C) both were given tremendous gifts of talent and opportunities in elite equipment att very young ages D) Jeff took advantage of his gifts, owning victory lane for a long time, behaved and stayed fiercely loyal to Rick. Kyle acted up from day one, burned bridges, cultivated enemies, and has consistently crumbled under pressure because he refuses to work on controlling his emotions." E) Opinions aren't facts, and no matter how much extra speculation you provide, it will never make them true. F)Kyle Busch has 23 wins. That's very good, but he's not as good as Jeff Gordon. Jeff Gordon has better qualities than Busch. And if we want to get into the argument of, "well, if he would just do this or that differently", then we can stretch that same logic onto every single driver. Jimmie Johnson have would more wins if he had Tony Stewart's fire. Tony Stewart would have more wins if he was as calm as Jimmie Johnson. Richard Petty would have more wins if he had David Pearson's instincts. Dale Earnhardt would have more wins if he was more like Rusty Wallace. You talk about talent and gifts like they are some measurable statistic, but it's not. It's a subject measure of evaluation. Kyle Busch and Jeff Gordon are both talented, but in completely different ways, and for completely different reasons. Sure, you can say Busch would be a better driver if he calmed down and became more like Gordon, but it's not something that can be proven. And I can say Kyle Busch is using his talent as good as someone like him can. Maybe if he calms down, he stops winning. Who knows. It doesn't mean a god d*mn thing either way. Even if he does become "more like Gordon", he's still Kyle Busch, with Kyle Busch's experiences, Kyle Busch's instincts, Kyle Busch's abilities. And I stand by the idea that arguing against the abilities of someone, because their career hasn't mirrored someone else's or followed the script that you expect, is completely freaking stupid. 870. 18fan posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon when he was younger was a lot smarter than Kyle Busch is as a racer. Jeff knew that he didn't have to push every lap as hard as he could. And he always kept his head so Ray Evernham could adjust the car to where Jeff could go win the race with his extreme talent. An example of this is the 1998 spring race at Rockingham. Early in the race Jeff was running in the 20s or 30s while Rusty Wallace and Mark Martin were dominate. Ray adjusted on the car, Jeff kept plugging along, and at the end he just outran Rusty and Mark. 871. Anonymous posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TheChase, you aren't going to win arguing against DSFF with rational arguments and reasoning when it comes to Kyle Busch. He hates Kyle Busch with such a passion, he can't look at anything relating to him objectively. He'll find any excuse to rag on him, no matter how irrational, petty, or stupid. So you might as well give it up now. Just let DaleSrFan go on talking about "not living up to expectations", that's kinda his thing. No one lives up to expectations. Everyone sucks. Everyone has the wrong personality and wastes their talent. Let it go, or you'll be going at it for the next week, and nothing will get accomplished. 872. DaleSrFanForeverLogic posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alex Smith would have 4 Super Bowls if he was just more like Tom Brady. Both have a remarkably similar upbringing, both have tons of talent, but since Smith came after he should better Brady in every single way, and until he does, he's a failure. And that's an unassailable fact. 873. DaleSrFanForeverLogic posted: 01.22.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LeBron James hasn't mirrored Michael Jordan's career exactly, and because everyone compares him to Jordan, that means he's a failure. 874. DaleSrFanForeverLogic posted: 01.22.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apples are just like oranges, but since apples aren't oranges, then apples suck. 875. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 01.22.2012 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Apples are just like oranges, but since apples aren't oranges, then apples suck." The other ones I sorta agree with, although they ARE still just opinions, but this one is my favorite. Hehe :) 876. Eric posted: 01.22.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I disagree with you with Mark Martin being affected by Earnhardt's death in terms of performance if you compare Mark's 1998,1999, and 2000 season before 2001 in terms of top 5's and top 10's. The 6 team already was on its way down. Mark in 1998 had 22 top 5's, he went down to 19 top 5's in 1999, before going down to 13 top 5's in 2000. Mark in 1998 and 1999 had the same amount of top 10's, but the amount of wins and top 5's went down. Mark in 2000 was down to 20 top 10's in 2000. The amount of top 10's Mark had in 2000 was his lowest since 1994. The other things is Jack Roush thought Jeff Burton should be his number 1 driver for a time including 2001. Jeff Burton was affected by Dale's death by looking at the safety in racing after Dale's death though. I argue Jeff was more affected by Dale's death than Mark. Mark's stats in top 5's were close to his 1990's performances at Roush in 2002,2004 and 2005 if you look at 1992 and 1993. The other thing is Mark always been very conservative as driver. Jeff Burton never reached double digits in top 5's after Dale's death unlike what he did from 1997 to 2000. I think it more than Dale Earnhardt's death for what happened to Bobby Labonte. Bobby had a serious accident during the Southern 500 weekend in 2000. During Southern 500 weekend the gas pedal got stuck to the ground and slamming Bobby's car nearly head-on into the outside retaining wall. That meant Bobby was lucky that he didn't die in Southern 500 practice at a time there was no safer barriers, or head and neck restraints. Stuck throttles was a problem that year and it did cause drivers to die for Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin jr. I recalled reading about Bobby Labonte being shaken up by that crash before Dale's death. All Dale's death did was shaken Bobby up even more. While Bobby was great rest of the 2000 season, it was back of his mind. 877. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.22.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon when he was younger was a lot smarter than Kyle Busch is as a racer. Jeff knew that he didn't have to push every lap as hard as he could. And he always kept his head so Ray Evernham could adjust the car to where Jeff could go win the race with his extreme talent. An example of this is the 1998 spring race at Rockingham. Early in the race Jeff was running in the 20s or 30s while Rusty Wallace and Mark Martin were dominate. Ray adjusted on the car, Jeff kept plugging along, and at the end he just outran Rusty and Mark." Jeff Gordon has always been a smart racer. he may have always been in top equipment but having top equipment don't mean jack if you don't take care of it. Jeff Gordon toke care of his equipment. Kyle Busch has YET to show that he can do that and he is in championship winning equipment. Giants vs Pats in the Super Bowl. Hope to the heavens that it has the same result as last time. 878. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.23.2012 - 4:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, shut up. Why hasn't rearranged your faces. You are acting so petty over stuff. FG4G and I were stupidly arguing over something, and we both had very good arguments, but we eventually let it go and I apologized for being a jerk. Shut up and act like men. Don't you guys (TheChaseBlowsChunks, DSFF, cjs, 18fan) realize how petty (racing forum, Petty, haha) you are being? The only one of you who willing takes what is served is cjs. If I want a full out melee, insulting, and irrational arguments, I'd watch CSPAN. By the way: Pats suck. Here's to a repeat of 2008. I have never seen a suckier team in the Super Bowl; even the Cardinals looked better in 2009. 879. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.23.2012 - 9:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are some interesting thoughts on the effect of Dale Earnhardt's death on the veteran drivers of the time... as for Dale Jarrett, it was in 2001 that Nascar outlawed the "bump-stops" and I believe that change effected his performance. DJ wasn't able to consistently run in the top five during races for a majority of races after 2001. Super Bowl XVXI: The Defense Strikes Back... it better because Daytona Speedweeks is moved back a week. 880. cjs3872 posted: 01.23.2012 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I didn't know that Bobby was shaken up even prior to Earnhardt's death from his crash at Darlington. Now the Roush organization as a whole, had a terrible year in 2001, as not only was that Martin's worst year to date, but it wa also Matt Kenseth's worst year as well, but they rebounded in 2002, led by Martin. The point I was making was that the group of drivers that were contemporaries of Earnhardt were shaken by his death. Sure there were various other factors involved in the decines of individual drivers, but the drivers that were contemporaries of Earnhardt, as a group, were no longer willing to take the risks that they had previously, and Rusty Wallace was proof positive of that. And those that were doing well may also have been affected by Jerry Nadeau's crash at Richmond in 2003. Bad crashes like that not only affect the drivers that had them, if they can race again, but also have an impact on the other drivers that witness them. 881. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.23.2012 - 11:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You talk about talent and gifts like they are some measurable statistic, but it's not. It's a subject measure of evaluation." True, but I don't think Kyle being outerworldly talented can be argued all that much. EVERYBODY in the sport talks about his car control and what he can do when his head is on straight. Despite the fact that he is an absolute nightmare from an organizational standpoint due to his constant bad behavior which scares sponsors (and for a racing organization, sponsorship is EVERYTHING) he keeps being given chance after chance. Why? It's not like he is that nice of a guy. Hell, he just had his big money sponsor (Mars Inc) pull their sponsorship for the last two races. So why does he get chance after chance? Because they know what he is CAPABLE of doing. It sure as heck isn't for what he has done. Despite a very good numbers to this point (23 wins is damn good), there is no way he, as he has been, is worth the headaches he constantly causes. Especially considering he has been an absolute championship non factor year after year. They are not going to keep him for that production. They know what is CAN do, and don't want to watch him do it somewhere else. That to me is the measurable statistic. His brother actually won a championship and has got the boot TWICE due to constant bad behavior and the headaches that come with them. Kyle has got it once, but that was from Rick Hendrick who has both Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. So why does Kyle keep getting chances when he brings NOTHING to the table other than potential? That is my point. And as far as this: "Sure, you can say Busch would be a better driver if he calmed down and became more like Gordon, but it's not something that can be proven." Maybe not, but the converse of that has been proven time after time. The more agitated Kyle gets, the worse he does. So there has to be SOMETHING to that argument. 882. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.23.2012 - 11:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now for the trolls: "He hates Kyle Busch with such a passion, he can't look at anything relating to him objectively. He'll find any excuse to rag on him, no matter how irrational, petty, or stupid." Actually the opposite is true. Believe it or not, Kyle is somebody I WANT to like so bad, but he keeps making sure I don't. Be it his attitude, on track antics, or anything else, I just can't make the leap. And that makes me mad because he could elevate this sport out of its doldrums. The whole monotonous JJ Era? Kyle could have put a stop to that, or slowed it down and made it interesting. And that is what irritates me the most. Everyone says Kyle is "good for the sport". I say his is "capable of being good for the sport". We need true rivalries where drivers push each other to be better. Kinda like Dale and Rusty from '88-'94. Cale and Richard from '73-'77. Gordon and DJ from '96-'01. DW and Bobby from '78-'84. And of course The Fox and The King from '61-'79 (the best instance in NASCAR history of two drivers pushing each other to be the best they could possibly be, leading to legendary status). The thing about the JJ era is that somebody will step up for one year to push JJ, then disappear. Kurt beat him in '04 and was fired less than a year later, and hasn't contended for a title since. Smoke beat him and nearly derailed the 48 Express before it ever got started in '05, then missed the cha$e in '06 and hasn't been a title factor again until just this year. Gordon pushed him to reach his highest level yet (his unbelievable '07 cha$e) then got hurt 3 months later and is only a week in week out contender again now. Carl pushed him in '08, then didn't win again for almost two years. Denny should have beat him in '10, choked, and had the worst hangover season since Earnhardt in '92. And who can forget the '06 clusterbomb? He had 4 people pushing him in the end. Kenseth (4 wins in the next 4 total seasons, including two winless seasons), Hamlin (wasn't a title contender again until '10), Harvick (won the thrilling '07 Daytona 500, then went winless for 3 years, also not a contender again until '10), and Dale Jr (been in a coma ever since, ONE win since). We could have had a wonderful JJ/Kyle rivalry over these last few years. Door to door at every type of track, not just battling for the checkered flag and that year's title, but for supremecacy of the sport. We don't have that anymore. The closest we have come since 2002 are the occasional JJ/Smoke battles (Fall Martinsville '05 and '11, Richmond '08 come to mind). It looked like '07 would have that with some of the JJ/Gordon battles, but in '08 Gordon got hurt and the rules changed the cars in a way that didn't mesh with Jeff's style AND he battled crew chief issues (the exact same thing that robbed us of a TRUE Earnhardt/Gordon rivalry in the late 90's). But at least Gordon and Smoke (for the most part) have legitimate excuses. Jeff had the issues mentioned above, and Smoke had the team switch after an unhappy '08 when JGR went to Toyotas which is the sole reason Tony left (that is looking to be a mistake in retrospect). But I'm still not letting him off the hook for 2006. The truth is, as long as Tony is with an HMS satellite team, we will never see a true JJ/Smoke rivalry. But Kyle has no excuse. 883. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.23.2012 - 12:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for the non-NASCAR ones: "Alex Smith would have 4 Super Bowls if he was just more like Tom Brady. Both have a remarkably similar upbringing, both have tons of talent, but since Smith came after he should better Brady in every single way, and until he does, he's a failure. And that's an unassailable fact." First off, in the NFL which is the ultimate parity machine, anybody winning 4 Super Bowls in just 7 seasons is EXTREMELY unlikely. Even if the Pats win in two weeks, that will be Brady's 4th Super Bowl over 11 seasons. And he has been without a doubt the best regular season AND post seasons QB (combined) since '01. Peyton has been better in the regular season, but is a one and done, home loss machine on the playoffs. As for Alex Smith, 7 offensive coordinators in 7 years don't exactly help matter any. Plus his first 6 years were with head coaches in WAY over their heads (Mike Nolan and Mike "What The Hell Is This Trainwreck Doing Here" Singletary). Brady has had Belichek as his head coach over his entire career. VERY hard to compare those two. "LeBron James hasn't mirrored Michael Jordan's career exactly, and because everyone compares him to Jordan, that means he's a failure." You are right that everyone compares the two, but that is also a bad comparison. LeBron is a physical specimen, perhaps the greatest pure athlete EVER. MJ had to work a lot harder. LeBron was on magazine covers as a sophomore in high school, MJ got cut from his varsity team as sophomore. But the biggest difference is that MJ was a cutthroat competitor who treated every game like it was life or death. LeBron doesn't even take games in the NBA FREAKING FINALS very seriously. LeBron just wants to have fun. MJ just NEEDED to win. The best comparison for LeBron is Wilt Chamberlain. Both were so far ahead of their competition physically, they seemed noticeably out of place, and that threw them both off when it really mattered, and both lacked the killer instinct. The best comparison for MJ? Earnhardt. Hardscrabble roads to the big leagues plus a naturally ingrained killer instinct forged the two most over competitive athletes of my lifetime. And once each started winning, it only made their desire even worse. The more each won, the more they wanted to do it again. It became an addiction for both of them (well, that and gambling for MJ and hunting for Dale). 884. Anonymous posted: 01.24.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since there isn't much racing stuff to talk about at the moment, does anyone mind if I thread-jack these comments and ask what everyone's Super Bowl pick is? I'm going with Giants 31 Patriots 27. The outcome either way is going to greatly affect the winning QB's legacy. A Pats win would cement Tom Brady as possibly the best QB all time, and if not the best then certainly top 3. He'd be 4-1 in the Super Bowl, which to me is better than Joe Montana's 4-0, because it means Brady still made it all the way to an extra Super Bowl, which is better than not making it at all. He would also have more playoff wins than Montana, with a good 3 or 4 more years left in his career. Brady could conceivably end his career with 5 Super Bowls, and 20+ playoff wins. Conversely, if he loses this game, he drops to 3-2 in Super Bowls, which suddenly doesn't look so great, even with all the playoff wins. So this game is critical to the perception of Brady's career. If Eli Manning wins, he would be 2-0 in Super Bowls, and that's a strong 2-0 because he'd have beaten Brady twice, including the 2007 Patriots, which was one of the best teams ever assembled. For comparison, an Eli Manning 2-0 would be considerably stronger than when Roethlisberger was 2-0 in Super Bowls, with his two wins coming over much weaker competition (Matt Hasselbeck and an over-the-hill, last little bit of gas in the tank Kurt Warner, both playing for teams with little to no post-season success). And of course we saw what happened when Roethlisberger finally came up against a team that knows how to win the big game, he lost. So if Eli Manning can win, not only would that give him more rings than his far more talented brother(*more on that later*), it would also start laying the foundation for what I believe is a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame. He's starting to put up solid regular season numbers, and if he keeps that up for 4 to 5 more seasons, he'll have the stats, the wins, and the rings. And he already has more road playoff wins than any QB in history. Now if he loses, I don't think it affects the perception of his career as much as if Brady loses. He'll still be remembered as a great QB, but not the guy that slayed the Brady-Belichick dynasty twice on the biggest stage, which would be practically legendary. And that's the way Eli is looked at right now, "he's a great QB, but..." there's always that qualifier. Whether it's Peyton is better, Brady is better, he's not elite, whatever it is, it's always "he's a great QB, but". So a lose wouldn't change much. 1-1 in Super Bowls is still pretty good, but he'll need even stronger regular season stats to have a shot at the Hall of Fame. In other words, 1-1, he's still in Peyton's shadow, 2-0, and he's made his own legacy, and a darn good one. *-In regards to Peyton Manning, his legacy is not so much that he only has one Super Bowl win, but the way he has transformed the QB position in the 21st century, and the dedication he showed to the mastery of his position. Look at Rodgers, Brees, even Brady and Eli these days. The best QB's in the NFL today all owe something to Peyton Manning and the way the transformed the position. Brady plays more like Peyton now, than when Brady was winning his first 3 Super Bowls. He changed the game, and he's got his one ring to validate it all, but with all of this analysis about records and Super Bowl wins, it's important to remember that football is in fact a TEAM game, and for all that we may make about Brady winning 4 Super Bowls, or Eli winning 2, they didn't do it by themselves. Manning has played fantastic in playoff games in which his team has lost. Brady played poorly in the AFC championship and still won. More than half of any team has nothing to do with what a QB does (defense and special teams), and those two other sides of the ball have cost the Colts at least 3 playoff games that I can remember (Steelers '05, Chargers '08, Jets '10). You could make a strong argument that the Colts have been on the unlucky side of more close playoff games than Brady and Eli combined, usually without a defense, shoddy special teams, and a poor running game to offer much help to Peyton. Just look at the Colts this year, they were a mess. Suddenly those 4 MVP awards start making sense. Still, the 9-10 playoff record doesn't define his career, just like Marino's isn't defined by no ring. In a way, I think you can say Marino was the grandfather of the modern QB movement that Peyton perfected. Both are great QB's, easily top 5 all time, that seemed to be hounded by bad luck at the worst times. 885. Bronco posted: 01.24.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The new Fusion Cup car looks brilliant, definitely a game changer as far as the generation of Cup car is concerned. Not as sharp as Aussie V8 Supercars or some of the Euro and Japanese touring car racers, but a good effort overall. I can see Dodge doing a good job with their Charger, but its going to be tough for the Camry and Malibu to top this. 886. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.24.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For comparison, an Eli Manning 2-0 would be considerably stronger than when Roethlisberger was 2-0 in Super Bowls, with his two wins coming over much weaker competition (Matt Hasselbeck and an over-the-hill, last little bit of gas in the tank Kurt Warner, both playing for teams with little to no post-season success). And of course we saw what happened when Roethlisberger finally came up against a team that knows how to win the big game, he lost." As much as i like Ben Roethlisberger, he should be 1-1. The Seahawks got royally butt screwed by the refs in that game anyone out there could have seen it. They beat the Cardinals fair and square but the Seahawks game will live on forever because the refs did a piss poor job in that game. 887. Scott B posted: 01.24.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I agree on the 2013 Fusion. Ford set the bar high, if the other manufacturers even come close it will be a nice step toward restoring some brand identity to the series. 888. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Could Trevor Bayne's career be headed down the same path as Ron Bouchard's? It turns out that he was a candidate for the Penske Racing #22 car, but after consulting with Jack Roush, he turned it down, which might be the mistake that drives his career into oblivion, as he has neither a full-time Cup or Nationwide ride for 2012, despite winning in both series last year. For those that may not know, Bouchard, as a rookkie, outfoxed both Darrell Waltrip and Terry Labonte to win the 1981 Talladega 500. In later years, Bouchard got offers from other higher-echelon teams, but decided to stay with Jack Beebe's #47 Race Hill Farms team out of loyalty to Beebe's operation, but that proved to be his undoing. He never won again, even though he was competitve, and was out of the sport by 1988. Ironically, Beebe's Race Hill Farms team did win again, with Morgan Shepherd at Atlanta in 1986. 889. Eric posted: 01.24.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really didn't think Brady changed at all during his career for turning into Peyton Manning. What happened to Tom Brady is he did not have great passing targets in his 3 super bowl wins. Troy Brown was his best passing target. The Wide Receivers he had were not great players once they left the Patriots. What also needs to be looked at who the Patriots had as running backs during their Super Bowl wins. Corey Dillon was the best back the Patriots had with Brady as a Quarterback. Corey Dillon is a back that will be getting Hall of Fame consideration after Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin are in the Hall of Fame. Antowain Smith was their starter of the first two Super Bowls wins Tom Had. The 2007 Patriots really showed what Tom Brady really can do if provided the targets. That team could go 4 deep in Wide Receivers. This Patriots teams isn't that deep in Wide Receiver. Tom Brady to me always has some Joe Montana in him. I watched Montana in him prime in the late 1980's. Montana is a Quarterback that you can not count out. He was one of the calmest Quarterbacks ever in the hurdle and was the Quarterback no one wanted to deal with in the last 2 minutes in a game. I really question how much Aaron Rodgers owes to Peyton Manning because the fact Peyton Manning did not work with Rodgers with his throwing mechanics in his first years as a pro. I Know Rodgers worked with other Quarterbacks during the off season in the past like he did after 2009. Aaron Rodgers was a project out of college was the reason he went down to the Packers in the first round in 2005. Rogers always had accuracy and his mobility. Rodgers in College threw the ball different than he did now in terms of how he held the the ball in terms of delivery. The Green Bay Packers coaching staff changed his delivery and his mechanics. The fact is not a lot of Quarterbacks out of college could change their delivery or throwing motion and Rodgers is a rare bird.What the coaches of the Packers did with changing his mechanics was actually making his throws go longer and made him the Quarterback his today. 890. Smiff_99 posted: 01.24.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm still bitter that Ford didn't bump the Mustang up to Cup, but whatever. That new Fusion DOES look sexy. And not only that, but Ford (and Dodge) will have two different models in Cup and NW......which harkens back to the days when that's just how it was....manufacturers had different models for each division (not always, but often) 891. Red posted: 01.24.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Patriots 34, Giants 31 Regarding the legacies of quarterbacks, I think people put way too much emphasis on wins and rings. Like annonymous said, it's a team game, and even though the QB is the most important position, he's still very dependent on his teammates. Tom Brady is an interesting case. I'd put him somwhere between 5th-8th on the all-time list, but I think his Super Bowl wins are overrated. 2001: If it weren't for the ridiculous tuck rule and Vinatieri hitting two clutch kicks in a blizzard, Brady wouldn't have even beaten the Raiders. He was mediocre in that game, while his teammates and sheer luck carried him to the win. Against Pittsburgh, the Patriots scored three touchdowns, none of which had anything to do with Brady: a punt return, a blocked field goal return, and a TD pass from backup Drew Bledsoe. In the SB, Brady played another mediocre game, and was aided by Ty Law's pick-six which gave the Pats an early lead. Then, the final drive, one of the most overrated "clutch" moments in sports history. That drive consisted of dumpoffs to halfback JR Redmond against a super soft prevent defense, with perfect weather inside a dome. Plus, the game was tied, so they didn't face the pressure of having to score, and they only needed a field goal. I'm sorry, but Brady didn't do anything special on that drive. 2003: Brady did play great in the Super Bowl, there's no denying that. But the final drive, like 2001, came under the easiest possible circumstances. Pnathers kicker John Kasay booted the kickoff out of bounds, setting the Pats up at the 40 yard line. Again, up against a prevent defense in perfect dome weather, without the pressure of coming from behind, Brady drove 37 yards and Vinatieri won the game on a last second field goal. I mean, you can give Tom credit for not screwing it up, but I bet there are 15 other QB's in the league that would've done just as well, given the circumstances. To be clear, I'm not saying Tom Brady himself is overrated; I think he's the best QB in the league right now, and probably will be for another few years. But the hero worship he receives for his "clutch" play in Super Bowls is way over the top. Let's see him drive 80 yards, coming from behind, needing a touchdown to win. Just sayin'. 892. Eric posted: 01.24.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I got the Patriots beating the Giants barely. Tom Brady somehow will drive the team to the winning score late in the game. The Patriots defense in the playoffs is better than in the regular season. I don't put a lot of stock into playoff wins in terms of Quarterbacks in terms of who is the better playoff quarterback. There is too many things to equation. One of things thing that make playoff wins overrated is what round the quarterback plays in also. As far as Dan Marino goes, I saw him in his prime. He had an quick release, but I can't say he grandfathered the modern Quarterback Movement. He was a great Quarterback though. My reasoning goes to the fact the Modern offenses used in the NFL today is mostly used before Dan Marino got to the pros in 1983. I actually have to say Ken Anderson. He was the first very good Quarterback that used the West Coast Offense. As great as Ken Anderson was, he actually would have been even better in today's NFL and would have been considered a hall of fame Quarterback. The West Coast Offense is a modern offense that got its start before the Mel Blount rule in 1978. Ken Anderson was the Quarterback that held the high pass completion record in 1982 and held for a long term despite it being even more pass friendly now. I could say Joe Montana brought up the West Coast Offense level higher, but Ken Anderson is Quarterback to look at first with that offense. There is a version of the West Coast Offense that is still used in the league today including the Green Bay Packers although it is different than Bill Walsh used. The Packers have used the West Coast Offense since 1992. The West Coast Offense has been used by a lot of Quarterbacks also including Brett Favre. The West Offense actually made Brett Favre a better quarterback than he actually is under Mike Holmgren by limiting Brett the types of throws he makes because he actually is interception prone despite the fact Brett had a very strong arm when he first went to the Packers. The other Quarterback I could argue that grandfathered the Modern Quarterback is Dan Fouts. I mentioned that Air Coryell revolutionized the passing game and a lot Quarterback have used since Dan Fouts. Air Coryell is the reason for that and the fact it was the first great passing offense in the league. Dan Fouts became a great Quarterback once used Don Coryell's Offense. Don Coryell's Offense has been modified to fit personnel through the year that included the Washington Redskins under Joe Gibbs during the 1980's. Troy Aikman used a modified version of it because his offensive coordinator actually a disciple of Don Coryell with the difference of The Cowboys ran the ball a lot because of their Offensive line. Kurt Warner used a modified version of that offense and Philip Rivers is using as Norv Turner. What should be looked at what Grandfathered a quarterback is the offense that was used because the fact Don Coryell's offense and the West Coast Offense are the best modern offenses that started the Modern Passing game. 893. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.24.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It actually looks like what is on the roads nowadays. A very nice step for NASCAR just hope it races well. 894. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.24.2012 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2001: If it weren't for the ridiculous tuck rule and Vinatieri hitting two clutch kicks in a blizzard, Brady wouldn't have even beaten the Raiders. He was mediocre in that game, while his teammates and sheer luck carried him to the win." If the Raiders end up winning that game, the Patriot run of 3 in 4 years doesn't happen . "2003: Brady did play great in the Super Bowl, there's no denying that. But the final drive, like 2001, came under the easiest possible circumstances. Pnathers kicker John Kasay booted the kickoff out of bounds, setting the Pats up at the 40 yard line. Again, up against a prevent defense in perfect dome weather, without the pressure of coming from behind, Brady drove 37 yards and Vinatieri won the game on a last second field goal. I mean, you can give Tom credit for not screwing it up, but I bet there are 15 other QB's in the league that would've done just as well, given the circumstances." Tell that to DSFF, John Fox didn't help either. "play not to lose but we end up losing anyway" style of coaching. Even tho i really don't want to new COT body style, i can learn to like it if the cars look just as good as the Ford does. But looks can only go so far..... 895. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, I guess it's time for my Super Bowl prediction. I think the Giants will crush the Patriots in the Super Bowl. The reason being that the Patriots have probably the most generous defense ever to play in a Super Bowl, and the teams they've played never really tested that defense, since that's not in the personality of either the Broncos or the Ravens. I think Eli Manning will rip that defense to shreds, and I think the Patriot offense is too one-dimensional to cope with the Giants' pass rush, which mauled their OL four years ago in Super Bowl XLII, and I think that's even a bigger mismatch this time. And let's not forget that the Giants dominated the Packer offense in Green Bay. Only bad officiating kept that from being a blowout, and it still ended up being a convincing win for the Giants. And Eli Manning had as many incompletions as 49er QB Alex Smith had attempt (26), and Manning also completed 32 passes in bad weather against a great San Francisco defense. Not to mention the faster playing surface will only play into the Giants hands. And let's not forget that the Patriots are not a deep passing team any more, but rather a short-to-medium range passing game without much team speed as the Giants. I'm not even sure the Patriots have the one advantage they usually have in every game they play, and that's at the QB position, as Eli Manning has been, by far, the best QB in the post-season. And besides, it's been a long time since there's been a one-sided Super Bowl. It's about time one showed up. (I've ben saying that for about three or four years now.) I'd say Giants 41, Patriots 17. 896. Eric posted: 01.24.2012 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, There is something that you forgot to mentioned about the Green Bay game. The Packers Offense was rusty because Rodgers didn't the final game of the regular season besides the fact Rogers targets did dropped at least 6 passes that game. The Packers in the final game of the season didn't play a good of their starts on offense including Greg Jennings despite being healthy enough to play. Greg Jennings not playing in the final game of the regular season despite being healthy enough to play based on I read actually didn't help matters. Greg didn't play over a month prior to the Giants game. Coaches not playing the starters in the final game of the season despite being healthy enough to play in the past has bit those teams in the playoffs when they have first round bye. The Giants game also had the advantage of the Packers coach going questionable stuff such as calling a time out around 7 to 15 seconds left in the first half. That allowed the Hail Mary pass to happen. There also was the issue of doing 2 outside kicks during the game include one in the first half. 897. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, you're right about some of the things you mentioned, especially about the Packers not learning from the Colts playoff misfortunes, though Rodgers was definately not to balme, nor was not playing him. The fact was that, even with the 8 dropped passes and the coaching blunder, the outcome would not have changed. Actually, if not for officials mistakes, which led to two Packers TDs, we might have been talking about a 30-7 or 37-7 rout, so I highly doubt the 8 dropped passes or the tactical blunder by the Packer coaching staff would have made any difference. The fact is that the Packer defense, like the Patriots' defense, was extemely generous this past season, and that more than anything else, led to the one-sided game in the Giants' favor. The same thing in regards to a generous defense, combined with five turnovers to the 49ers' one, led to the Saints' demise at Candlestick. I believe that if the Patriots had faced a potent offense in the AFC Championship Game, they wouldn't be in the Super Bowl, and they almost weren't anyway. That's why I'm predicting a Giants blowout on February 5 (Darrell Waltrip's 65th birthday, hard to believe, isn't it?). Because their offense should shred the Patriots' defense, while the Giants' defense, not having to fear the long pass or a potent running game, should be able to handle the Patriots' offense long enough to give the Giants a stranglehold on their fourth Super Bowl victory in five tries. 898. KBM18 posted: 01.25.2012 - 2:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know this is going to sounds simplistic, but I think whoever gets the most turnovers will win the Super Bowl. And right now it seems like the Giants are the ones that can get turnovers more easily. I also think the Giants have less pressure on them, since they are once again the team nobody expected to make it to the Super Bowl, whereas the Patriots are the top seed in a relatively weak year for the AFC, basically making it to the Super Bowl by default. I mean seriously, you had the Broncos with Tebow, no way they could win an AFC championship, Roethlisberger was hurt, the Bengals were starting a rookie QB and the Texans were starting a 3rd string QB, plus neither team has playoff experience. The Ravens and Patriots had the easiest paths to the AFC championship I've seen in years, and neither team seemed interested in winning that game either, the Patriots pretty much won that by making fewer mistakes than the Ravens with neither playing particularly well. I think a healthy Peyton Manning probably could have taken that P.O.S Colts team this year to at least the AFC championship, maybe even the Super Bowl. The only NFC playoff team that I didn't feel had the talent to get to the Super Bowl this year was the Falcons. They were just kinda there. The Lions, Giants, Saints, 49ers, and Packers are stacked, any one of them would have been a strong Super Bowl team. So, for my prediction: More turnovers for the Giants - NY 24, NE 14 More turnovers for the Patriots - NE 35, NY 21 Equal number of turnovers for both teams - NE 23, NY 21 And it's never too early for my crazy, totally mind-boggling prediction for next year's Super Bowl - San Francisco 49ers vs. Cincinnati Bengals That's right, the Bengals. An unexpected Super Bowl XVI and XXIII rematch. My reasoning: Andy Dalton showed more poise for a rookie QB this season than most I've ever seen, and yes, even in the (road) playoff game were he arguably played terribly. The kid is a winner, he was in college and he will be in the NFL. He doesn't always put up flashy numbers, but he wins games. He has the intangibles. That playoff game didn't fall apart until the ridiculous, once in a lifetime interception before the end of the half that just demoralized the Bengals. They were the youngest team in the league last year, but gained valuable playoff road game experience. They play in a still-weak AFC. They have 2 first-round draft picks thanks to Oakland's lack of foresight. Plus, they are the team that's gone the longest without winning a playoff game, and they are simply due to turn it around. I know it's a ridiculous assumption to expect a team to play well because they are "due", and it has no merit in logic whatsoever, but still, that team is DUE. As far the 49ers, I don't think that needs much explanation. No one should be surprised if they make the Super Bowl. So there you go. It's pretty far out there, I know, but if the Bengals aren't playing in AT LEAST an AFC championship in the next 3 seasons, I'll be really surprised. Dalton to AJ Green is going to be a Manning to Harrison type of combination for years to come. 899. Smiff_99 posted: 01.25.2012 - 11:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric? CJ? Red? RCR/Penske Guy? ANy of you care to offer your thoughts on the new car? 900. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, we won't really see what the car has, or how it truly looks until it gets on the track in 2013, so I really have no opinion at this present time. After all, some of the prettiest looking cars have been terrible, and some of the worst looking cars have performed mightily (does Junior Johnson's hideous orange Holly Farms car from 1975-'77 ring a bell?). So only time will tell. 901. Eric posted: 01.25.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, I can't say anything about the the new car. It goes to the fact it will not be on the track before 2013. Performance is what I judge a car by in race conditions. 902. Eric posted: 01.25.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @884 Anonymous, I forgot to mention something about the Quarterback Movement. It very hard to say Peyton Manning perfected Dan Marino in terms of the modern Quarterback Movement. While I think the Modern Quarterback Movement started before Dan Marino, the truth is Marino in his prime had different rules than Peyton Manning. The league really started to protect the Quarterback started in the early 1990's by having the Quarterback slide. Dan was in his 30's when that rule came. Other rules for protecting the Quarterback even came later after that. Dan's low Sack totals was caused by his quick release and excellent passing blocking line. Dan didn't get sack at least 20 times a season before he was 30 years. Marino's completion percentage being lower than Peyton's is partly caused by the era Peyton played in. A good amount of Dan's season records that were broken wouldn't have been if the rules the league has now happened in Dan's prime. 903. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just personally can't look past Peyton's playoff inadequacies (a staggering dropoff compared to his regular season brilliance). Especially the sheer number of home losses and other games in which they were definitely favored (the '08 Chargers game, Super Bowl 44). It's not like his teams were barely above mediocre like Elway's 80's teams he drug to 3 Super Bowls. They had 12+ wins for like 10 years in a row or something. Throw in the fact that 2 QBs have started for more than one Super Bowl champ that came into the leaque AFTER Peyton arrived, Brady and Ben (good playoff QB..... except for his 3 Super Bowls!), and I can't put him on the Mount Rushmore of QBs ahead of Montana, Unitas, Otto Graham, and Bart Starr. And I definitely have Brady and Elway ahead of him, as well as Steve Young. Hell, he may wind up ranking behind his own brother before it is all over (unlikely, but not out of the question). "The West Offense actually made Brett Favre a better quarterback than he actually is under Mike Holmgren by limiting Brett the types of throws he makes because he actually is interception prone" That is putting it mildly lol "but I think his Super Bowl wins are overrated." You forgot to mention their extremely shaky win over the Eagles by just 3 points even though the Eagles played like pure shit with McNabb hyperventilating. That was the Super Bowl equivalent to Earnhardt vs Rudd for the 1991 Winston Cup championship. So he is lucky they pulled a no show in that Super Bowl just like the Rams did in '01. And he is lucky the team he played in '03 was coached by John Fox. Believe me, you guys don't have to remind about that one. I can still see Kasey's kick going out of bounds at the end, knowing that was pretty much curtains for us. My Super Bowl prediction: The Pats. I think the Giants have a better team, but I also think giving Satan (aka Belichek) 2 weeks to draw something up for Eli will give them the edge. He has a history of grounding offense's strong points. He did it to the Rams passing assault, the Panthers vaunted rushing game (only to be almost undone by Delhomme turning into John Freaking Elway for one night), and Peyton many times. Remember Victor Cruz going crazy over the past two weeks? That will change. The G-Men will need an unlikely hero. That has been John Wayne Belichek's kryptonite in past Super Bowls (David Tyree's one night stand in SB42 and Delhomme's incredible SB38 almost sinking the Pats until John Fox saved the day). I hope I'm wrong. It was fun watching the Pats lose the Super Bowl 4 years ago, and I want to see that sour look on Adolf Belichek's face again (wait, he makes that same face even when they win, never mind). But I think the Wicked Witch of Foxboro will be too much. 904. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2012 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Back to racing for a moment: Matt Kenseth would win more races if this were his permanent look (minus the 70's leisure suit of course). Can't you picture him showing up at the track like this with some Aviator sunglasses? No way Crown Royal would have left him. That Fu Manchu would get him more wins. Just like Earnhardt's mustache was solely responsible for 20 of his wins and 2 of his Winston Cups. http://lockerz.com/s/170452381 905. ii posted: 01.25.2012 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And it's never too early for my crazy, totally mind-boggling prediction for next year's Super Bowl - San Francisco 49ers vs. Cincinnati Bengals That's right, the Bengals. An unexpected Super Bowl XVI and XXIII rematch. My reasoning: Andy Dalton showed more poise for a rookie QB this season than most I've ever seen, and yes, even in the (road) playoff game were he arguably played terribly. The kid is a winner, he was in college and he will be in the NFL. He doesn't always put up flashy numbers, but he wins games. He has the intangibles. That playoff game didn't fall apart until the ridiculous, once in a lifetime interception before the end of the half that just demoralized the Bengals. They were the youngest team in the league last year, but gained valuable playoff road game experience. They play in a still-weak AFC. They have 2 first-round draft picks thanks to Oakland's lack of foresight. Plus, they are the team that's gone the longest without winning a playoff game, and they are simply due to turn it around. I know it's a ridiculous assumption to expect a team to play well because they are "due", and it has no merit in logic whatsoever, but still, that team is DUE." Bengals? So many teams were so much better than them. They just got mighty lucky to make it to the playoffs. In fact, the Dolphins have a better chance than the Bengals with a new OC and Matt Flynn. Also, you list way too many soft spots of Andy Dalton. He needs a few years, and maybe he and the Bengals could be a legit AFC contender. But Super Bowl? Not until at least 2016 or '17, when Brady and Rothlesberger start to deteriorate with age. Smiff_99: It depends on what "new car" means. Is it the new noses next year, or is it the new rules for the 2012 plate races? Either way, I wouldn't expect much of a performance change compared to a few years ago: the Chevys and Fords will always have an advantage. My Super Bowl prediction, of course coming from a Patriots fan, has NE on top. It won't quite be a blowout, but the game will be pure offense. The only reason why I think this is that I'm feeling that Jason Pierre-Paul will tear a ligament, which would be pure lucky. If this occurs, then the Pats win, 38-18. But, if my prediciton about Pierre-Paul isn't correct, the final score would be 24-20, with 2 less touchdown passes by Brady and a safety by Pierre-Paul. Trust me, us Patriots don't want a 2008 repeat. That would suck. 906. LordLowe posted: 01.25.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF I was wondering since you have attended a lot of races at Charlotte did you attend the 2000 fall race there. It was where the lead changed hands 46 times and eventual series champion Bobby Labonte won that race after battling Ricky rudd, and Dale Earnhardt who battled his way from 37th place to the lead before breaking a shock and finishing 11th. 907. jabber1990 posted: 01.25.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) wow, we've talked about everything both NASCAR and non-NASCAR related, Baseball, Politics, Football. 908. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2012 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, I wasn't at that one. I was afraid Dale would run the same paint scheme he ran in the two May races there (kidding). Actually I didn't go to ANY races that year. I got to go to so many races from '90-'99 because Dad was a manager for Kroger and their vendors would give managers free tickets all the time. But Kroger left our area in 1999, and instead of moving, he decided to stay in the area and went to work with Harris Teeter. Their vendors didn't give away tickets. Somehow we got tickets to the '01 Coke 600, but I don't remember how. That was my first race since the '99 Coke 600. I remember that one because they helicoptered in Tony Stewart (a rookie at the time) from the Indy 500, and circled him over the grandstands and he waved at us. Then he marched from the back to the Top 5 all night. I swear, if it wasn't for the fact I bled Earnhardt black I would have become a fan of his then, and regretted it later. But I watched that race. It was really good, but it was a kick in the gut when his shock broke and Bobby won. From August on, it was a lot of gut punches as I realized he wasn't gonna catch Bobby. The blown tire at Pocono, Dale wrecking himself at the Glen, Bobby's incredible pit stop and subsequent monsoon at the Southern 500, the bad race at Dover, the shock at Charlotte, and worst of all Rockingham. Bobby FINALLY had some bad luck getting trapped a lap down by a caution, only for Dale to lose the handle in the end, finish 17th and only gain a few points when he was 250+ back. At least we had the Dega race, a fitting final victory for the legend. Still, it was a fun "Ha! He ain't done yet!" season. BTW, in 2001 Bobby had a classic year after the year when everything goes right. When you see somebody have a year where they are seemingly immune to bad luck, it catches up with them the next year. Earnhardt in '88, Mark in '91, DJ in '00, Bobby in '01, Kenseth in '04, KuBu's '05 cha$e (even before the suspension), Gordon in '08 to name a few. Carl Edwards, I'm looking at you. 909. Eric posted: 01.25.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii, Steelers being a threat going to a Super bowl through 2016 or 2017 is a big reach. Ben is only going to be 30 in 2012, but the age of the defense is a huge concern in terms of starters. Steelers are still going to the playoffs, but a Super Bowl Contender is very unlikely for the next couple years at least. The Steelers have been fixing their offensive line through the draft, but here are big issues for 2012. Brett Keisel and James Harrison are going to be 34 years old in 2012. Casey Hampton is going to be 35 in 2012. If James Farrior still is with the Steelers or plays in the NFL for 2012, he will be 37 years old. 37 is old for a linebacker. Ryan Clark is going to be 33 in 2012. Ike Taylor is going to be 32 in 2012. Troy Polamalu is going to be 31 years old this year, but you don't how much longer he will play based on the injuries he had in his career. I am not saying the Bengals are going to the Super bowl before 2016 or 2017 though. The two number the Bengals get will help them if they draft good. Matt Flynn is not a given for the Dolphins. It is really up to what if the Packers are planning to franchise Matt for a sign and trade trade deal. 910. Smiff_99 posted: 01.25.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well YEAH, it might end up racing like shit......I was just seeking general first impressions on how it looks. Obviously the jury will be out on whther it's successful or not for another 18 months or so. I mean, c'mon, it DOES look pretty sweet, am I right? 911. Eric posted: 01.25.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, The car does looks sweet. 912. Red posted: 01.25.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I definitely like the appearence of the new Ford. However, I'm going to reserve judgment until I see all four makes side-by-side, because I want to see if the cars actually look different from each other. But regardless, it's a step in the right direction, and I think most fans will be happy with the new cars. 913. Smiff_99 posted: 01.25.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't wait to see what Dodge does with the Charger......they knocked it out of the park with the Challenger. 914. ii posted: 01.25.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Dodge would be the best...not just because I'm a Dodge guy, but the noses are much better than the Mustangs (although that's pretty sick too), Impalas, and Camrys. Damn, why doesn't Chevy want the Camaro to run? As for the successfulness, it will definitely take a while, just like the new car did in the '80's and 2007. Hendrick will definitely have an edge with their amazing R&D. Then, the rest of the field would catch up. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a repeat of '07, and maybe Junior could EARN a win for the first time since Richmond 2006. Anyways, the only Charlotte race I went to in Cup was the Coke 600 in 2010. I also went to the N-wide race and threw stuff at Kyle Busch when he won :). It was my first race at a track other than my Hometown track and New Hampshire (September 2008). We got free tickets because my uncle new a guy that gave away free tickets and pit passes. I got to meet Steve LeTarte and Greg Zipadelli, and I also saw quite a bit of drivers too. We got amazing snapshots of the race, the pits, and KuBu at victory lane. The race itself was "blah" (I didn't get to see KyBu and Burton fight), but I had a great time. 915. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, I hate to say it, but you or anyone else that throws anything onto a racetrack should be thorwn in jail and never be allowed to go to any track ever again. That kind of thing is extremely dangerous and potentially deadly, and far worse than anyone that throws an object onto a baseball or football field, or a basketball court. In fact, I'm not sure I consider anyone that throws anything onto a racetrack a real race fan at all. Boo the guy all you want, and even yell obscenities if you like (though I wouldn't reccomend it). That has no chance of actually harming him or anyone else, but throwing something onto a racetrack not only endangers the driver, but everyone else, because that driver could hit that piece of debris, and heaven knows where it could end up going. It could endanger the lives of other competitors, crewman, officials, and other spectators if it is knocked back up into the stands. After all, any object on the track becomes like an unguided bullet or missile if it's hit by a car going any speed, or by any tire going at any speed. And if I were you, I'd check out some incidents involving objects thrown from the stands at other sporting events, and the damage it could cause. Events like the "Hail Mary Game" betwen the Cowboys and Vikings at Metropolitan Stadium in 1975, Game 5 of the 1976 ALCS between the Kansas City Royals (yes, the Royals once fielded teams of championship caliber) and the New York Yankees, Game 6 of the 1977 World Series between the Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Yankees, where objects were being thrown Reggie Jackson's direction, after hiting three home runs in that very game, the 1980 NL West playoff between the Houston Astros and Los Angeles Dodgers at Dodger Stadium. One of the worst such incidents I can remember was a game at the Meadowlands late in the 1995 NFL season between the San Diego Chargers and the New York Giants where ice balls were being thrown on the field, some of which actually hit the participants. In fact, long time Chargers' employee Sid Brooks suffered head injuries in that incident. As far as I'm concerned, any "fan" that throws an object onto the playing field, no matter the sport, is no fan at all in my view, but, and I hate to say this, but that person is a hooligan in my mind at that point in time, even if he's the nicest person in the world. That kind of activity can kill people if things happen a certain way, especially at automobile races where cars can go up to 200 MPH, and things have ben thrown onto the track during actual racing conditions. Anyone that is caught throwing stuff onto a playing surface should be thrown in jail and at least never allowed to attend an event in that particular sport again, if not all sporting events, because that kind of activity has no place in sports, or society for that matter. 916. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.25.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Junior Nation beer bombed Jeff Gordon twice (2004 Aarons 499 and when Jeff beat Dales 76 wins mark). Which lead NASCAR too 1. stop letting fans bring their own coolers to the track and 2. stop serving beer or anything else in a can and 3. brought about the GWC rule. Edit: Jeff has been beer bombed 3 times 2006 at Chicagoland. The only thing i've agreed with Kyle Busch on is when he said "i have nothing against Junior, its his fans that are crazy." that is the only thing i've ever agreed with him on. even tho kyle busch fans have no room to talk about Jr. fans. No offense if your a Kyle Busch fan. I just don't hold EITHER fan base in high reguard. 917. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, you're right about what happened at the 2004 and 2007 spring races at Talladega. In fact, the incident at the 2004 Talladega spring race with Jeff Gordon's car being pelted with beer cans was just about as bad as the incident I mentioned in that 1995 Chargers-Giants game at the Meadowlands. The only difference was that there were players hit in that incident at the Meadowlands, and a non-paticipant (Chargers' equipment manager Sid Brooks) badly injured. And it has nothing to do with who's fanbase you're a part of, nor the sporting event you're at. If you throw intentionally throw something onto the field, no matter what your rational is, you should be ejected, thrown in jail, and never be allowed to attend an event in that sport ever again, and be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and charged with the highest possible crime for the offense, because there's no reason to put other people's safety in danger. And if it's at an event like an auto race where the possibility of death looms, anyone that throws an object onto the track should be charged with attempted murder, because someone could lose their lives due to those actions. And I repeat, any "fan" that does this at a sporting event is not a fan in my book at all, but rather a hooligan. And yes, much like the legendary Howard Cosell was, I get very angry any time I see this at a sporting event. No broadcaster got upset at seeing this more than Cosell did, and like everything else, he voiced his sharp opinion on it, which I agree with 100% then and now. And like everything else in racing today, when this happens, the broadcasters report it with no passion at all. 918. LordLowe posted: 01.26.2012 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A person who throws somthing onto the race track onto a car isnt a race fan its a race idiot. Quote from Bob Jenkins at the 1994 Winston 500 919. LordLowe posted: 01.26.2012 - 2:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fans also threw stuff during Wrestling events 920. Schroeder51 posted: 01.26.2012 - 3:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) May I provide a quote from Bob Jenkins from the 1994 Winston Select 500 at Talladega, after Geoff Bodine crashed early in the race after running over some beer cans that were hurled onto the track: "A person who throws something onto the track is not a race fan. He's a race idiot." I think that sums that up nicely. 921. Schroeder51 posted: 01.26.2012 - 3:34 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Dammit, LordLowe beat me to it. 922. Frank posted: 01.26.2012 - 5:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, you are looking like teacher in class to ii. First of all, he "threw stuff at Kyle Busch when he won" - that means if was AFTER the race which eliminates all your first paragraph. Thank you for letting us now that an object on the track surface during 200mph racing is dangerous. Second, in throwing something to the driver there is big difference - is he in the car or out? If driver is out of the car (preparing backflip, for example) - your second paragraph applies - it is dangerous. If driver is in the car - talk about morality as much as you wish but don't fool anyone - toilet paper, plastic bottle and even beer can are unable to damage anything than paintjob. I understand Jr. fans in Talladega and if I was fan of him - I'd threw too! Contrary, in Phoenix 2007 it was no sense to do so. Running with 3 flag was stupid but passing Earnhardt in total wins was unavoidable. Anyway - I understand those who threw. The ones that must be punished are F1 fans during 2005 US Grand Prix. Needless to say why. (Please don't explain this, cjs, we all know why!) 923. NicoRosbergFans posted: 01.26.2012 - 6:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, oh, you mean the Michelin tyre fiasco where the FIA said it was the teams fault for having Michelin tyres on their cars, and then refused to make a chicane so that the Michelin cars could race. It conveniently ended in Ferrari's only win of 2005 in a year in which they couldn't get podiums without difficulty (interesting pattern, Ferrari sucked in 2009 and the FIA let Raikkonen cheat at Belgium so that they could get a win [letting Raikkonen get away with going off the racing surface to gain an advantage, which is illegal]). A lot of people showed at Indy and had angry signs, and... *hyperventilating*... Uh oh, sorry, Frank. *slowly slinks away a la Snoopy in a Charlie Brown Christmas. I have never seen your name before; are you new, Frank? 924. NicoRosbergFans posted: 01.26.2012 - 6:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its fan, not fans in my name. Hey look! We three NicoRosbergFans of Orient are, trying to scalp a win from Red Bull. Sorry, looks like multiple personality disorder, or do we reserve that for LordLowe and his ever changing mood? 925. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.26.2012 - 9:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Gordon and Jimmie Johnson have had at least a few beer cans thrown at them during every single one of their burnouts for at least the past 7 years. At least every one of their burnouts at Martinsville I have seen cans being thrown at them. Unfortunately this has been a problem for a long long time. Dale Earnhardt lost a lap twice in the 1986 Fall race at Charlotee and claimed they were from running over beer bottles (he wound up winning). Also, when he famously blew his tire on the backstretch in the 1990 Daytona 500 (damnit!) He initially thought he ran over a chicken bone from those old grandstands they used to have going into Turn 3 before realizing it was a piece of bell housing. Sometimes stuff on the track is unintentional. At North Wilkesboro, there is about a 5 foot strip of grass between the first row and the catchfence. When people in the grandstand finished a beer or a chicken leg, they would toss it on to that grass. Many times I remember it being overthrown and endng up on the track. Not by me though. Once, I finished a can of Mello Yello and asked Dad if I could toss it to the grass. At first he said no cause I was only about 8 and he didn't think I could make it. He finally said yes, so I reared back, tossed it with all my might, and pelted some dude on the 3rd row in the back. Whoops. 926. cjs3872 posted: 01.26.2012 - 11:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scroeder51, remember that there was a lot of emotion at Talladega in that 1994 Winston 500, especially in Bob Jenkins in that incidenmt where a bottle had been thrown. Keep in mind that race at Talladega was held just hours after legendary 3-time F1 champion Ayrton Senna had been killed at San Marino. In fact, that's how I learned that Senna had been killed, because it was mentioned during that caution period. And as for those that say that when a car is stopped while a driver is doing a burnout celebrating a victory, that items such as toilet paper and plastic bottles or beer cans are not dangerous things. I agree that toilet paper is not dangerous, but plastic bottles and beer cans are still potentially dangerous. What the one of those bottles or cans are hit by one of the rear ties, which I would estimate are still turning at about 100-120 MPH? They would still be dangerous projectiles, and even if there isn't any danger being created, the fact is that danger COULD be created, and those people that thorw such objects should be thrown in jail for the night, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and never be allowed to attend another event in that particular sport. And Frank, when Jeff Gordon did his victory lap around Phoenix in 2007 holding up the "3" flag when he tied Dale Earnhardt in career wins, that wasn't stupid at all. The only thing that displayed was the incredible respect he had (and probably still has) for Dale Earnhardt, and it is something they (the #24 team) had planned to do for months whenever he tied Earnhardt in career wins. And trust me, a lot of people that raced against and covered Earnhardt and that remembered how great he was probably had tears in their eyes (like Mike Joy seemed to), and those new to the sport got to know just how much Dale Earnhardt was respected by those who competed against him by just watching that moment. 927. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.26.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fans also threw stuff during Wrestling events" When Hulk Hogen (BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) turned heel, the ring was littered with trash. Mick Foley (Mankind, Dude Love, Cactus Jack) and another got buryied by steel chairs when Mick yelled to the crowd "HEY, SOMEONE GIVE ME A STEEL CHAIR." A rain of chair soon followed. "Contrary, in Phoenix 2007 it was no sense to do so. Running with 3 flag was stupid" How was it stupid? Honoring a man who he did endless and legendary battles with is "stupid"? Really...................... I can't believe people booed Jeff for that, it was a classy thing to do and as far as i see it, anyone who passes that win # should do it. And if anyone passes Richard Pettys win # then that driver (not named Kyle Busch, your not worthy) should do it also. Hell even if someone passes Jeff Gordon, they should do the same. 928. Schroeder51 posted: 01.26.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, exactly. That made it even more disgraceful that they were throwing their garbage out on the track. Suppose Bodine had been injured in that crash, now that would have just been awful. Oh look, I just knew someone would try to justify throwing stuff at drivers after races. I just knew it. I remember when Jeff Gordon won Darlington a few years back ('07), a few Bud Lites made their way over the fence. The most I've ever done to show my disapproval towards a driver is give the finger (I've done this every time Kyle Busch is introduced in driver introductions when I go there since about '07). Sure it might be disrespectful and a bit on the crude side, but nobody has ever been physically hurt by a middle finger. 929. cjs3872 posted: 01.26.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Schroeder51, it's doubtful that any of the fans at Talladega thay day even knew that Ayrton Senna had been killed, but that's no excuse for throwing anything on the track, because there's no excuse for any spectator (notice I didn't say fan) to throw something onto the playing field during any sporting event. After all, living in the San Diego area at the time, I didn't know about Senna's death until that caution period caused by the debris from the stands. And by the way, if you want to watch the 1984 and 1985 Daytona 500s, you can see them on my YouTube channel, since you now know I have a YouTube channel. The same goes for anyone else. If you ever want to see the '84 and '85 Daytona 500s, as well as the 1973 Indianapolis 500, you can see them on my YouTube channel. And Schroeder51, thanks for the compliments on my uploading the '73 Indianapolis 500. 930. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.26.2012 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh, oh, you mean the Michelin tyre fiasco where the FIA said it was the teams fault for having Michelin tyres on their cars, and then refused to make a chicane so that the Michelin cars could race. It conveniently ended in Ferrari's only win of 2005 in a year in which they couldn't get podiums without difficulty (interesting pattern, Ferrari sucked in 2009 and the FIA let Raikkonen cheat at Belgium so that they could get a win [letting Raikkonen get away with going off the racing surface to gain an advantage, which is illegal]). A lot of people showed at Indy and had angry signs," This is FIA your talking about, the most corrupt, bias governerning body in all of sports, they make the NCAA look like little girls. If your not French, your screwed. If your not with the "red team" your screwed. Besides how is it possible that shit heads like Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone get jobs? ITS THE FIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW i don't want to hear about NASCARs shadyiness, the FIA is worse. WAY WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 931. Sean posted: 01.26.2012 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My predictions for 2012 (including series other than NASCAR): Cup champion: Jimmie Johnson. More by process of elimination than his past five titles. Even though I think Kyle Busch and Denny Hamlin are every bit as talented as him, I think the TRD engines are going to kill JGR on the cookie-cutters (and think going to TRD was a dumb move). Penske's not going to do it with still-inexperienced Brad Keselowski as team leader. Stewart-Haas isn't going to get the full weight of Hendrick support if there are still actual Hendrick cars contending (not to mention that Stewart replacing Grubb is going to lead to instability). I personally can't take Childress or Kevin Harvick very seriously, as he usually finishes better in points than he actually runs. Roush rarely has two good seasons in a row lately so I expect a dropoff. Jeff Gordon does not really know how to finish a season well and never has even in his great seasons (except 1998). Kasey Kahne isn't going to win a title there in his first year. Who's left? Daytona 500: Kurt Busch. He tended to overachieve with regard to his plate finishes at both Roush and Penske, considering those teams have traditionally had the weakest plate equipment of the powerhouse teams. Now he's driving for Finch, which has a history of surprisingly strong plate results (and as many plate wins as Penske). Although Hendrick has relatively struggled compared to usual on plate tracks lately, I think the Hendrick engines will help. If Brad can do it in a Finch car, Kurt can. Although it seems like NASCAR is trying to get rid of the tandem drafting, if it still exists Kurt and Regan Smith were one of the strongest tandems and might be even stronger now that they're both on single-car Chevy teams. Southern 500: Brad Keselowski. Perhaps a more whimsical pick, but he was 7th as a part-timer there, 12th in his atrocious 2010 campaign, and 3rd right in the fight for the win last year (which was at the very start of his mid-season power run). His Pocono win proved both that Paul Wolfe makes fantastic pit calls (useful since it can be hard to pass there) and that Brad can drive his butt off, which is also useful there (driving hard enough to cause Kyle Busch to half spin out on the last lap despite having an injured leg). I know Penske hasn't won there since Bobby Allison in 1975, but Brad still seems like as good a pick there as anyone else. Coca-Cola 600: Kasey Kahne. He's been a consistent threat there even in seasons when his equipment's been a little off. That is unlikely to happen in the #5 car. Brickyard 400: Jeff Gordon. If not for Tony Stewart's bravura performance in the finale, his run at Indy last year was the drive of the year. He still has the best record there and if he brings the same car he had last year, it's hard to see him losing unless he gets out-strategized again. Road course winners: Marcos Ambrose at Sears Point and JPM at Watkins Glen. Of course those guys and any top 15 Cup driver except Kenseth or Junior can win on them, so they're a lot more competitive than they used to be. First time winner: A.J. Allmendinger. I realize he doesn't lead a lot and I don't expect MUCH stronger results (or even for him to make the chase), but Penske has a recent history of just nailing the setup a couple times a year and considering some of these will still be cars Kurt fought for wins with, I think he'll do it. Locked out of victory lane: Dale Earnhardt Jr., Ryan Newman, Clint Bowyer, Greg Biffle, Paul Menard, Martin Truex Jr., Jeff Burton, Mark Martin, David Ragan, Joey Logano, Regan Smith, Brian Vickers, all others outside top 25 (Jamie McMurray improves considerably, but only to his regular 15th place season with several near-misses and not leading a lot). Chasers: Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin, Kevin Harvick, Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne, Matt Kenseth, Brad Keselowski, Juan Pablo Montoya, Ryan Newman, Tony Stewart. I see JPM and Ambrose competing for the last wild-card spot due to their road course wins and JPM narrowly getting it, but neither will be quite near the top 12. Even though I see Kurt winning Daytona, I also see him getting LOTS of 20th-25th place finishes on the cookie cutters and think it'll be a struggle even for him to make the top 20 in points in that car... Hamlin and Kyle will struggle with TRD engines but I think they'll still be in the top ten entering the chase. Rookie of the Year: Josh Wise. zzzzz Stewart-Haas should really just enter Danica for 17 races this year. It wouldn't take significant results to beat a start 'n' parker for ROTY, while Austin Dillon would probably destroy her. Nationwide champion: Austin Dillon. When you're related to your car owner, it's easy to get a full commitment. But he does have some talent as well and I don't think it would take very much to beat Sadler, Stenhouse, Danica, and Hornish for a title... But Danica will win the media title! Camping World Truck champion: Ty Dillon. I'd much rather see James Buescher do it, but it looks like the RCR assembly line is going to keep on truckin', especially when most of the other teams in the field are not well-funded. I quite hate nepotism, but at least both Dillon brothers seem to have more talent than (say) Jon Wood. Most Cup wins: Jimmie Johnson, 6 24 Hours of Daytona: Scott Dixon/Dario Franchitti/Jamie McMurray/Juan Pablo Montoya. It's the third straight season I've picked this car, and it blew an engine in 2010 and finished second to the other Ganassi car last year, but this car still has the most overall star power, although honestly most of the Daytona Prototype teams look good this year except the one which AC/DC lead singer Brian Johnson (isn't he like 60?) is driving. IndyCar champion: Will Power. Also the third straight season I've made this pick but with only four or five ovals remaining and the fact that Franchitti's luck HAS to run out at some point, I don't see him having a chance. I think four-time Champ Car champion Sébastien Bourdais, driving the factory Lotus entry for Roger Penske's son (although no longer an official Penske satellite) is more likely to pose a challenge to Power next year than Franchitti (because I think Bourdais is WAY better on road and street courses than Franchitti is, but the equipment might not be good enough). Indy 500 winner: Tony Kanaan. I would have totally picked Wheldon if he'd lived, but sadly... I don't think Wheldon's replacement James Hinchcliffe will be a threat, nor his 2011 rookie rival J.R. Hildebrand (yeah, the Panther car has finished second the last four years there, but I'm reminded of the LAST two rookies to finish second at Indy, Christian Fittipaldi and Marco Andretti, whose careers ultimately amounted to nothing despite their famous last names). I know he's won twice but I don't see Franchitti as a great oval driver. Castroneves has won 2 or 3 times (depending on your view on 2002) but I don't see him as great on ovals either. I think they've won oval races solely due to Penske and Ganassi dominating on ovals rather than their oval talent... I guess that leaves Dixon and Kanaan in my mind. Dixon is probably the smarter choice, but I'll flip for the sentimental choice because Kanaan is way overdue, and he'll probably want it more than Dixon too. As long as ANYONE besides Castroneves, Franchitti, or Marco wins, I'm good. Long Beach Grand Prix winner: Sébastien Bourdais makes a statement and reminds people that he used to kick Will Power's ass (and everyone else's) back in Champ Car. 24 Hours of Le Mans: With Peugeot withdrawing, obviously Audi will win the race but since Audi hasn't even announced its drivers yet, I'm not making a specific driver pick. Formula One champion: Sebastian Vettel. zzzzzzzz Grand-Am Daytona Prototype champions: Scott Pruett/Memo Rojas. zzzzzzzz American Le Mans LMP champions: More interesting because Chris Dyson/Guy Smith won the title despite only winning one race since they were EXTREMELY consistent while Klaus Graf/Lucas Luhr were dominating but failed to finish frequently. I'm gonna guess these trends continue and go with Dyson again. World Endurance champions: Again Audi, but still waiting until they officially announce their drivers. Super Bowl: I'm not into football at all, but I'm going to predict the Patriots. 932. ii posted: 01.26.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I'm only kidding, but goddamn it I wanted my money back. Sorry, but we need a new topic to talk about. And if I were to throw something onto the track, even to Kyle Busch, it would be when the race is over. Hey, we are getting close to post 1000, anyone think we're gonna get there? 933. 18fan posted: 01.26.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski, his crew chief Paul Wolfe, and sponsor Miller Lite have all extended their contracts with Penske through the 2015 season. 934. cjs3872 posted: 01.26.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, don't joke about something as serious as that, because lives can be put in danger when stuff is thrown onto a track. I'm not against having a little fun every now and then, but I don't joke about anything as serious as that. In fact, I have a feeling that I may be able to do a backflip soon, something that was beyond even my wildest dreams even a couple of months ago. And if I might be able to do a backflip sometime soon, something tells me that drivers other than Carl Edwards in NASCAR's highest series can. In fact, I think that Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne (before his recent knee troubles), Austin Dillon, Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., and a few others could do backflips, if they put their minds to it. In fact, Stenhouse proved that he could do one in a Ricky vs. Trevor thing they did late last season. Stenhouse tried one and landed in the water feet first, which proves that he can do a flip if he really wanted to. And there are others that I think could do flips if they tried in their spare time, if they had any. And I believe that Jeff Gordon could have done one in his earlier years if he worked at it away from the track. Imagine if he would have done a flip after one of his big wins or championships. In fact, when he won the 1997 championship, he jumped of his car and was about 10 feet in the air before he landed. By the way, other than Carl Edwards, who does anyone else think could do a backflip if they put their mind to it away from the track? By the way, not only have Brad Keselowski and Paul signed extensions with Penske Racing through 2015, but an old favorite will be back for the Firecracker 400, as Bill Elliott, who won the Firecracker in 1988 (when he won the championship) and '91 (his final win for Melling Racing). Eliott will be trying to qualify the #50 car for Turner Motorsports, a team aligned with Hendrick Motorsports in the Nationwide and Truck Series. Bill Elliott's son Chase is, of course, a Hendrick Motorsports development driver. 935. BON GORDON posted: 01.27.2012 - 1:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well I guess I'll make my predictions for 2012 as well: Daytona 500 Champion: JEFF GORDON- Man is this a tough one because anyone could win it but I predict that Jeff Gordon (BIG SURPRISE) will win with drafting help from his new teammate Kasey Kahne. Gordon is never really thought of as a great plate racer out there but BIG DADDY is one of the all-time best. I feel that Gordon and crew chief BIG ALAN G will have the right package and be in the righ place at the right time to win his fourth and final Daytona 500. He was fast in Winter testing however i don't know how much it really matters but whatever. Unlike the last couple years this years winner will not be as Big of a surprise. Southern 500 winner: DENNY HAMLIN- For me it was between Jeff Gordon and Denny Hamlin. Too much goes wrong for the 24 team however they will still run strong in the event. 2012 will be a better year for Hamlin and he will win his first race at the famed Darlington Raceway. Coka Cola 600 winner: KASEY KAHNE- I totally agree with Sean's post. Kasey Kahne loves Charlotte Motor Speedway and finally has the equipment to go out and dominate the race. However he will have challenges from Jimmie Johnson, Brian Vickers, Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, and Carl Edwards. Brickyard 400 winner: JEFF GORDON- I also agree with Sean's prediction of the Brickyard 400 winner. Gordon will not have as good of a car as he did in 2011 but will use strategy (YES I SAID STRATEGY which this team is not known for very often) to win the Brickyard similar to what team DuPont did in the year 2001. Gordon will qualify bad (mid 20s or so), struggle most of the race, take two tires or whatever in the late stages, and be there at the end when it counts most. CHASE DRIVERS (in no specific order): Kyle Busch, Tony Stewart, Kasey Kahne, Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin, Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, Kevin Harvick, Carl Edwards, Greg Biffle, AJ Allmendinger, and Brad Keselowski. ROTY: Don't care, sorry. Hasent been interesting in years... Most Wins: Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch- 5 wins each YOUR 2012 NASCAR SPRINT CUP CHAMPION: I have thought about this for a while now and I could very easily put my own foot in my my mouth but as of right now i think Carl Edwards is as hungry as ever. While losing the championship that way is tough he's still young and has a lot of years left. he's got a strong team behind him and will finally win his first title. This is Carl's time everyone. 2012 Final Points Predictions: Champion: Carl Edwards- 4 Wins, 15 Top Fivess, 24 Top Tens 2nd: Jimmie Johnson- 5 Wins, 16 Top Fives, 23 Top Tens 3rd: Denny Hamlin- 3 Wins, 13 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 4th: Jeff Gordon- 2 Wins, 14 Top Fives, 21 Top Tens 5th: Kyle Busch- 5 Wins, 12 Top Fives, 20 Top Tens 6th: Kasey Kahne- 1 Win, 13 Top Fives, 18 Top Tens 7th: Tony Stewart- 2 Wins, 11 Top Fives, 18 Top Tens 8th: Matt Kenseth- 1 Win, 12 Top Fives, 17 Top Tens 9th: Kevin Harvick- 0 Wins, 11 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 10th: AJ Allmendinger- 1 Win, 9 Top Fives, 16 Top Tens 11th: Brad Keselowski- 1 Win, 9 Top Fives, 13 Top Tens 12th: Greg Biffle- 0 Wins, 10 Top Fives, 15 Top Tens Hey my guess is as good as anyones. Can't wait for the new season to begin! 936. BON GORDON posted: 01.27.2012 - 2:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry for the misspelled words and grammatical errors. It's kinda late. 937. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.27.2012 - 2:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure if any of you will really know what I'm talking about, but anyway... V8 Supercar picks: Clipsal 500 winners - Craig Lowndes, Will Davison Sandown 500 winner - Shane van Gisbergen Bathurst 1000 winner - Jamie Whincup Sydney 500 winners - Lee Holdsworth, Jamie Whincup 2012 series Champion - Jamie Whincup 2-5 in points - Craig Lowndes, Garth Tander, Shane van Gisbergen, Mark Winterbottom First time winners - Tim Slade, (outside chance) James Moffat. 938. Frank posted: 01.27.2012 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) myothercarisanM535i - I know! Clipsal 500 - Tander will win at least one race for sure. Lowndes isn't in best shape in early part of the season. Sandows & Bathurst - probably. Sydney - not JW, because it's hist worst track and he fear there a lot because of championship pressure. So... 2012 series Champion - Garth Tander, I predict! Because Jamie needs motivation to perform at his best. Now he reached almost everything and has worked significantly harder to get third title than it was expected before endurances. The only goal - as he said - checkered flag in Mount Panorama. 2-5 in points - I agree, Kelly cars are still behind and will be. First time winner - Dave Reynolds. Because he will drive FPR car. Can't wait V8 Season to begin!!! NicoRosbergFans, I read most threads and posting sometimes under this and only this nickname. Cool that you are sure about cheat outside pass Raikkonen in Spa. BTW Force India didn't protest because they obviously had cheat cars too. 939. Scott B posted: 01.27.2012 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Eliott will be trying to qualify the #50 car for Turner Motorsports, a team aligned with Hendrick Motorsports in the Nationwide and Truck Series. Bill Elliott's son Chase is, of course, a Hendrick Motorsports development driver." Bill should have a Champion's provisional to fall back on if no one else uses one, though I hope he can make the field on speed if Turner gives him a decent crew. Also, Ward Burton will be in the Daytona truck race, and running a few other races in that series teaming up with his son. It'll be good to see him again, he left racing far to soon. It'd be cool to see him win a Truck race to go with his Cup and Busch/NNW wins and join the "triple" club. 940. Smiff_99 posted: 01.27.2012 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's GREAT to hear that Ward's gonna be back runnin' some races this year. However, I don't think he'll survive the Daytona race without wrecking/getting wrecked. Since ward last raced, the tandem drafting has come about (so he has NO experience with it)......and in the trucks, it's even MORE sketchy than with the NW/Cup cars cause of the way the bnumpers line up. I hope I'm wrong and that he goes out and WINS the damn thing, but.....I'm not holding my breath or anything. 941. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.27.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, Frank, Force India just happened to have a car perfect for Spa, but they knew they wouldn't win any protests because it was Ferrari. By the way, it is NicoRosbergFan, not fans. Glad to know myothercarisanm535i and I aren't the only ones who know what the V8's are. 942. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.27.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lowndes isn't in best shape in early part of the season." I picked Lowndes to win at Clipsal because I think he's going to be driven harder than ever this year. To me, I see an uncanny resemblance to Jeff Gordon, both in terms of their overall career and impact on their respective championships and for their current career situations. I see Craig having his best overall season since 2006. "So... 2012 series Champion - Garth Tander, I predict!" I'm sorry to say that I just can't see this happening at all. Garth Tander is a driver with immense talent, but it seems that HRT is further behind the 8-ball than they've been letting on. James Courtney simply hasn't gelled with team at all and hiring Russell Ingall - a move that can only be because of him bringing sponsorship from Supercheap Auto - really points to a team that is struggling to find their form. I think that both Stone Brothers and Ford Performance Racing will have much better seasons this year, with both organizations scoring multiple wins. In fact, I think they'll both be significant threats for the title, but ultimately it won't fall their way in the end. Which is why I predict Jamie Whincup to win not only the Championship, but at least one race of the Sydney 500. Whereas in previous years, his closest competitors have stumbled, this year will see more drivers capable of fighting it out for the title than we've seen in a fair while. And of those drivers, I think that Whincup is the most effective at putting his head down and getting the job done, which is how this years title will be won. He hasn't performed well in Sydney in recent years, simply because he has had far more to lose than he has had to gain. If the Championship lead is remarkably slim going into the final two races, I have no doubt that he can and will win at least one of them. Now all this has got me thinking, potential winners this year? Jamie Whincup and Craig Lowndes will definitely win multiple races this year. Garth Tander, Shane van Gisbergen and Mark Winterbottom are also capable of winning a couple each, on the proviso that their teams can be more consistent than last year. Rick Kelly and Will Davison will both score at least one win apiece, with a slim chance of scoring two more. I think Davison will be more consistent throughout the year. Tim Slade, Lee Holdsworth and David Reynolds should all have a few good runs, with the possibility of a win coming from being in the right place at the right time (Rick Kelly at Hidden Valley, anyone?) I also think that Lee Holdsworth will come on quite strong towards the end of the season, as he and SBR find their feet together. Should be an awesome year. Can't wait for Clipsal! 943. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.28.2012 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see either Tony or Carl being in the championship hunt this year (although both will make the cha$e, even if they sleep through the first 26 races). With the exception of the 48 team, no team has been able to put together 2 championship contending seasons in a row since 1998. Even guys who won the Cup after finishing finishing 2nd the previous year (Bobby in '00, Tony on '02) finished a distant 2nd the year before in the pre cha$e era. Beginning in 1999, no team has truly contended for the championship more than one year at a time, except for the 48 team which contended for an astounding SEVEN consecutive years ('04-'10) winning the last 5. Everyone else was mathematically eliminated by the last race the next year, usually well in advance. Gordon and Mark in '99, DJ in '00, Bobby in '01, Gordon and DJ in '02, Stewart and Mark in '03, Kenseth in '04, Kurt, Gordon, Mark, and JR in '05, Tony, Carl, and Biff in '06, Kenseth, Hamlin, Harvick, and JR in '07, Gordon in '08, Carl and Biff in '09, Mark in '10, and Denny and Harvick in '11. Besides, both Tony and especially Carl have already shown being very prone to letdown years. Carl's '06 and '09 were both winless seasons out of the final Top 10. Tony's '03 was underwhelming (was outperformed by fading teammate B Lab for most of the season) and who can forget him epically gagging '06 away despite very fast cars. I still say if he keeps his head on his shoulders and makes the cha$e in '06, it changes just about everything about NASCAR's title races from that point forward. I say it comes down to JJ and Gordon this year. HMS doesn't stay down. They had a bad (for them) 2000, Jeff walked off with the Winston Cup the next year. 2005 wasn't great (one car in the cha$e, the 48, who gagged under the pressure), they put 3 cars in the cha$e in '06 and began JJ's legendary title run. HMS will be back with a vengeance. The 48 will be back with a vengeance. But I still give the edge to Jeff. To my eyes, 2011 showed Jeff still has it. He beat Kyle Busch at his own game in Phoenix, a fender banging duel on a tight flat track which showed he still isn't afraid to use his bumper (a huge and underrated reason for his success) or go toe to toe with the best. He fought off inconsistency and slowly gelled with Alan Gustafson over the summer, leading to him winning Pocono over Kurt Busch (who has a really good record at Pocono) showing he can still win the long grueling races (he is just 40 for Pete's sake, that is when fellow legends like Earnhardt and Bobby Allison were still in the MIDDLE of their primes). And of course, the epic duel with JJ at Atlanta at the end of 500 miles on tires that were WORN THE F**K OUT!!! Both drivers were dead sideways for the last 10 laps, JJ pressured the hell outta Jeff, but Jeff hung on, refusing to lose (ring a bell?). Then the cha$e started and everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. That bad luck will even itself out for Jeff this year. That shows me that Jeff still has it. He is healthy again (unlike '08-'10), and finally has a better handle of the cars and their current rules packages (unlike '08-'10). Pretty much his last 3 years mirrored Earnhardt's '97-'99 (injuries and an unfavorable rules package for them). But he is back, and his fire still burns bright. It's been a long time since he won the title, and you know that has to be wearing on him. He will use that as motivation and put on a clinic in the last 10. Which brings me to my final point. I think his "inability to close seasons" is overblown. In '95 he almost blew a huge points lead, but he and his team were protecting a huge lead and Earnhardt turned it up big time (his last season before his injuries and his last seasons before RCR fell behind). He had a mechanical failure in the Fall at Charlotte in '96 and fell to another wiley vet (Terry) after starting that season with 42nd and 40th place runs. In '97 he was again protecting a big points lead and had bad luck at Phoenix (flat tire) and the fluke practice crash at Atlanta in the days before the backup cars were as good as the primaries allowing the two Fords (which were clearly superior to the Chevys that year) to get close. And he was protecting another big points lead in 2001. You have to seperate the pre-cha$e runs when comparing end of season statistics. Remember, Earnhardt wasn't exactly a world beater at season's end. Because he was also usually protecting a lead. His best finishes were in '80 (Cale stayed close forcing them to keep running hard, winning twice, yet Cale still outperformed them down the stretch), '85 (way out of points contention, this was the beginning of their incredible dynasty), '86 (DW and Richmond made late season runs forcing them to speed up again), '90 (had to run Mark down), and '95 (made a hell of a run at Jeff, the final stand for the true Intimidator before injuries, Richard Childress, and finally age brought him to Earth). In '84, '88, '89, and '00 he was in title contention through the summer but couldn't keep up down the stretch (I didn't count '96 cause he probably shouldn't have even been driving at the time after the Dega wreck). But we can't forget Jeff's incredible ending to an incredible '98, the solid end to a bad 2000 season setting up his title cruise in '01, another solid ending to '03 (after a Murphy's Law summer), a good cha$e in '04 only to fall to Kurt's "Edwards in '11-esque" cha$e run where nothing could go wrong for them no matter how much shit they found themselves in (except Atlanta), a great ending to a bad '05, and one of the best cha$e performances ever in '07, only to be blitzed by JJ's legendary run to end that year. Jeff Gordon can finish seasons. Period. And he will finish 2001 with a big silver trophy in his hands. 944. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2012 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Jeff Gordon (or Dale Earnhardt, Jr. and Kasey Kahne for that matter) has about as much chance to beat Jimmie Johnson for the title as you and I have, as long as they're both driving for Hendrick Motorsports. And I can't even drive. First, 1998 is the ONLY season in which he's finished strong out of the 19 he's been in the Cup series, and there are questions surrounding the legality of the cars he drove during the second half of the season that year. In the Chase format, the only thing that counts is how you finish the season. You mention 2007. Have you forgotten how weak he was the final five races of that season? He had trouble even running in the top seven to twelve, while Jimmie Johnson was winning everything in sight (probably with cheated-up cars, as well). In 2005, his team was running experimental set-ups, since they failed to make the Chase, and the only race they won (Fall Martinsville, 2005)was done by skipping a pit stop. Then Tony Stewart, knowing that Jeff Gordon couldn't hurt him in the Chase, made sure that Jimmie Johnson, who could hurt him in the title race, wouldn't get to Gordon. He had a chance to steal the title in 2002, and again crumbled badly down the stretch. Your point about 2001 is accurate, and HMS was, as a group, uncompetitve in 2000. In 1997, he nearly gave away a huge point lead, and he had more problems than just being conservative. In 1996, there was much more than the blown engine at Charlotte that doomed his title hopes. He wasn't very good at Rockingham, and and Terry Labonte outran him at Phoenix with a broken wrist. And you mentioned his collpase in 1995. The plain truth is, that as great as Jeff Gordon has been, he can't finish a season strongly, and, except for when he more than likely ran cheated-up cars in 1998 (traction control, anyone?), he has NEVER finished a season strongly, whether he's been in title contention or not. And now he's got a crew chief (Alan Gustafson) who's noted for not being able to get it done in pressure situations, either, nor has he had two good years in a row. As great as he still might be, Gordon has, in my mind, contended for the championship for the final time. He may still win races (and he might not win as many as we think he might win), but I don't think he'll ever seriously challenge for the championship again. 945. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.28.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been watching Jeff since before his titles, and you know what, racing requires have the talent it does now. The only recent auto racing champion with the abilities of a racer is Vettel, and he has the best cars under him on top of that. cjs, just remember that Knaus has intentionally lied many times about setups to mess up his teammates, and remember that Jimmie had six freak wins while Jeff had two (freak means no snot beating). I question the way 2007 went between Jeff and Jimmie, and THAT is why I hate JJ and Chad (especially since Jimmie's stats outside of wins sucked, using NASCAR's faulty logic, Tim Richmond should have won the 86 title despite only 60% top tens); they always treat Jeff like a piece of $@&#. I do agree however, that Jeff has problems sealing deals. Oh, why waste my breath? We have already proven on these boards that the only time the Chase got it right was 06 and 09. Go ahead! Rip me! JJ and Chad already have murdered Jeff in their hearts! Okay, I'm exaggerating, but maybe Prost did that to Senna.... 946. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.28.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) half the talent, not have 947. 18fan posted: 01.28.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Chase got it right in 2005 too. Tony Stewart definitely deserved the title that year and he got it with the chase. 948. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, you are absolutely right about Chad Knaus undermining the other Hendrick teams, not only in 2007, but also in 2004 and 2009. In fact, though I don't think he ever mentioned it, I think Knaus was a big reason why Robbie Loomis left after Jeff Gordon failed to make the Chase in 2005. Remember that Gordon won three times in the first nine races in 2005, and then went into the toilet for the rest of the year. Also, in 2004, Gordon scored a dominating victory at Indy (his final one there), and then never won again the rest of that season while Johnson won four more times. And in 2009 after the whole fiasco at Dover, where Johnson's and Mark Martin's teams were warned about bending the rules regarding aero tolerance (I forget exactly for what), Martin was never a factor again the rest of the season, while Johnson sped away to his fifth championship, again with a bagful wins wins along the way. And lets not forget that at Las Vegas, I believe it was in 2005, that Hendrick Motorsports put three cars in the top five, with Johnson winning, Kyle Busch finishing second in the #5 car, and Jeff Gordon finishing fifth. Knaus and Alan Gustafson, Busch's crew chief at the time, were busted then for the rear end of the cars being too high, while Gordon's car was legal, mainly beacuse Robbie Loomis didn't want any part of that kind of action. The question I've had for a number of years regarding the championships of Johnson and Knaus has always been, how many of them were legitimate? Not in terms of on-track success, but rather, how many of those championships were attained with cars that truly fit the regulations? If I had to venture a guess, I'd say only the first (2006) and last (2010), at the most. Basically, what I'm saying was that Johnson and Knaus won several of their championships and about two-thirds of the races with cars that weren't exactly legal. And I have always suspected that they used traction control in a significant number of their victories, much like Jeff Gordon did in the second half of the 1998 season (with NASCAR's unofficial approval). 949. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.28.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First, 1998 is the ONLY season in which he's finished strong out of the 19 he's been in the Cup series, and there are questions surrounding the legality of the cars he drove during the second half of the season that year." Nah. Chad Knaus left the 24 team after the 1997 season. Just kidding. Sort of. Obviously any cheating in that time would have been triggered by Evernham, like the wheel suspension in the '95 Coke 600 (what had to be going through his mind when the wheel came off knowing full well it was showing his illegal parts to the world?). Unfortunately ANY victories for two of the best NASCAR drivers in its history (JJ and Gordon) have to be questioned due to HMS's long history of cheating, and continuing to cheat even after getting caught which is still going on as evidenced by Chad telling Jimmie to wreck his car doing burnouts if he won Dega. Then again, prior to 1992, EVERYBODY cheated. "You mention 2007. Have you forgotten how weak he was the final five races of that season?" Comparitively weak. Remember, until this year, Jeff's 2007 cha$e was the second best ever as far as average finish (which I'm pretty sure Carl obliterated this year) including two wins. It just so happens the best ever cha$e (until this year) was JJ in the same year, highlighted by his 4 wins in row. If he does what he did that year in 6 of the 8 cha$es ('07 and '11 are the exceptions) he walks off with it. I'd say he was more a victim of bad timing, like Mark in '98. " In 1996, there was much more than the blown engine at Charlotte that doomed his title hopes. He wasn't very good at Rockingham, and and Terry Labonte outran him at Phoenix with a broken wrist." Again, I'd say that was more bad timing. After blowing a tire at Indy, the rest of his year (12 races) was phenomenal. 10 Top 5s with 4 wins. But he had a mechanical failure at Charlotte and stumbled to a 12th at Rockingham. Considering he also had mechanical failures at Loudon and the first Rockingham to go along with wrecks that weren't his fault in the Daytona 500, Spring Dega, and Indy, he had a good finish to that year. Terry just Latford-ed (my new word) him to death. "And you mentioned his collpase in 1995." Now that was just a crappy ending. Hell, it should have been worse. He almost got lapped about 4 times at Martinsville only to be saved by a caution. And has anyone ever figured out what happened at Atlanta? He got lapped like 35 times (with Earnhardt giving him the bird all 35 times). "He had a chance to steal the title in 2002, and again crumbled badly down the stretch." True. But in all fairness, EVERYONE crumbled badly down the stretch. Even Tony. Everyone talks about Sterling's injury, but he had already lost the points lead by Kansas. Earnhardt vs Rudd in '91 may have been the weakest "battle" between two guys for the Winston Cup, but 2002 was the only time I have seen drivers play hot potato with the Cup. Watching Sterling, Tony, Mark, Jeff, and JJ trip over themselves in the end was bizarre as hell. Just an overall looney season. Is it a coincidence that was the year the Looney Toons movie came out with Gordon having a cameo? Of course it was a coincidence. " In 1997, he nearly gave away a huge point lead, and he had more problems than just being conservative." I forgot to mention he got caught in the Big One at Dega, then blew the tire at Phoenix, then wrecked on pit road during practice at Atlanta (inspiring a young Steve Wallace to do the same 10 years later at Daytona). Again, I'd say it was more bad luck than just doing bad. "As great as he still might be, Gordon has, in my mind, contended for the championship for the final time." Again, I disagree. I think he can finish seasons, and I think he will FINALLY finish the Drive For Five. I think it is fitting, his first Cup championship was in '95, RJR's 25th anniversary with NASCAR, therefore he got the special silver trophy, and his fifth will also be a silver trophy. 950. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the reasons I think Gordon's days as a true championship contender are history are not only because of his weak finishes (and you and I have a disagreement as to how many races that encompasses), but he now has a crew chief that has a proven track record of being at his worst when the pressure is on, not to mention one that has never had two good years in a row in seven years as a crew chief. So when Chase time comes, Gordon will have two strikes against him before the Chase even starts, assuming he makes it, which he easily should. If the twelve drivers I predict that will make the Chase do so, I believe only four can win the title, based on several factors, including championship experience, and whether they can get it done when the pressure is highest, and only four or five teams, at the most, have proven they can get it done when the chips are down. In fact, over the last ten years, only four drivers and five crew chiefs have won the championship, and one of the crew chiefs (Greg Zippadelli) will no longer be a full-time crew chief in 2012, while another (Robbie Reiser) has been retired in that role for four years, and one of the four drivers (Kurt Busch) is not with a championship-caliber team in 2012, so the number of drivers and crew chiefs with that winning experience is even lower than in years past, something that showed last year. While I mentioned the 12 drivers that I think will make the Chase, only four of those drivers can win the title. Those four are Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, and Denny Hamlin. There's a reason only two drivers have won the championship over the last seven years, and that's not likely to change. Now I'm not going to pick who will win the title, but to me as this moment, it would be a HUGE upset if the 2012 NASCAR Sprint Cup Champion was someone other than Johnson, Stewart, Kenseth, or Hamlin. 951. 18fan posted: 01.29.2012 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, Why do you feel so confident about Hamlin? I know he's paired with championship-winning crew chief Darian Grubb, but the TRD engines will hold back JGR as a whole in my opinion. Denny's only top 5 while running the TRD motors was at Martinsville, which is Denny's best track. I just don't see a huge improvement from last year to this year for Hamlin, even if him losing the championship in 2010 is no longer in his head. 952. LordLowe posted: 01.29.2012 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey if Gordon proves CJS wrong and does contend for the championship this year then he must do 24 backflips. If Gordon proves DSFF wrong and doesn't contend for the title this year he owes CJS 24 dollars. 953. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2012 - 8:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because 18fan, Mike Ford was weighing the team down. A lot of the melancholy atmosphere surrounding the #11 team had to do with Ford. Remember that Hamlin would have been the champion in 2010 if it hadn't been for the way Ford mismanaged some of the races near the end of the season, particularly Phoenix. And also, I didn't say that Hamlin would definately be a contender for the championship. I just said that if the 12 drivers that I predicted would make the Chase did so, that Hamlin was one of the four drivers that I said could win the championship. And by the way, LordLowe, I haven't gotten a backflip just yet, but I'm working on it. The weather, in the form of high winds, has prevented me freom progressing, as well as the fact that I got some visitors where I practice my stuff, and I don't like to be seen doing anything like that by anyone. In fact,I'm afraid to be sen by anyone, and when I noticed some passers by, I stop what I'm doing. And speaking of backflips, other than Carl Edwards, who does anyone think among the other NASCAR drivers could do one if they worked toward it? Again, my candidates would be Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne (before his knee problems), Austin Dillon, Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., who proved he could do one in a Ricky vs. Trevor stunt when he actually landed feet first in the water where they taped that particular stunt (Trevor Bayne flubbed it). And as I mentioned, I believe that Jeff Gordon could have done them if he really wanted to during his younger years, but not so now. 954. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.29.2012 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey if Gordon proves CJS wrong and does contend for the championship this year then he must do 24 backflips. If Gordon proves DSFF wrong and doesn't contend for the title this year he owes CJS 24 dollars." Sounds good to me lol. 18fan I agree about Denny for this year. Although him and Darian are both very talented and VERY motivated after last year, I feel there is just too much turmoil at JGR for this year (plus no guarantee they will click, althought I think they will). TRD just hasn't produced a very good motor yet in 5 years. Plus his teammates won't be as much help as he needs. Kyle needs to focus every bit of his energy for the first 4 months of the season to just not screwing up or being a jerk, which WILL require every bit of his energy. And Logano needs to gain the confidence of his team, and he will be out to prove he is worthy of a contract extension (he isn't, but he will try. and fail). 955. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.29.2012 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Chase champions 2004: Kurt Busch (i'd like to say Dale Jr. If he didn't half-wreck himself at Atlanta, he'd be champion.) 2005: Tony Stewert: eh, yeah. Nothing needs to be explained. 2006: Matt Kenseth (lets face it, #48 crew got busted for cheating at daytona which automatically DQs them from the chase.) 2007: Clint Bower (both Jeff and Jimmie got busted for cheating, so they aren't in the chase.) 2008: Jimmie Johnson 2009: Jimmie Johnson 2010: Jimmie Johnson (SHOULD be Denny Hamlin but they choked it away) 2011: Tony Stewert: everyone knew what they had to do, Carl didn't get it done, Tony did. If you go by EITHER new or old points, Jimmie has 2 or 3 but NOT 5. 956. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.29.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "not only because of his weak finishes (and you and I have a disagreement as to how many races that encompasses)" Just out of curiosity, how many races does it encompass in your view? "but he now has a crew chief that has a proven track record of being at his worst when the pressure is on, not to mention one that has never had two good years in a row in seven years as a crew chief." I think you are being a little unfairly harsh on Alan. You have to consider his circumstances. I think he did pretty good with Kyle. Considering how young Kyle was and the fact he has always been even more immature than his age. 2006 was a good year, but Kyle gagged badly in the cha$e, something he would repeat at JGR in '08, '10, and '11 (not to mention '09 when he choked away a cha$e spot). 2007 was also pretty good despite Kyle's lame duck status, that was his best points finish by far to date. In '08 he was stuck with Casey Mears. No crew chief can do good with a mediocre driver (see Zippy '09-'11). 2009 was incredible, 5 wins with the aging, fresh off his "limited schedules" Mark and a 2nd place finish. 2010 sucked cause Rick gave many key guys from the 5 team to Dale Jr. And they looked really good at times last year. Not bad at all. "Those four are Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Matt Kenseth, and Denny Hamlin." Kenseth is one I definitely have my eye on. Him and Jimmy Fennig have already shown to be a power duo and now have an entire season under their belts. But I also have a bizarre reason for liking their chances. I expect Ford to take a step back this year (or more accurately, everyone else take a step past them). For some reason Matt's best seasons ('03, '06, and '07) have been weak years for Ford. I have no idea why, but I think this somehow helps Matt, and will help him this year. Just don't ask me why. 957. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2012 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if I remember right, Casey Mears did pretty well with Ganassi, especially late in 2005 and early in 2006, and actually won a big race with Darian Grubb, last year's championship crew chief, in the Coca-Cola 600 in 2007, and ran up front nearly that entire race, though he only led the final few laps, and had other strong runs with Grubb in 2007. Yet Mears was a wash-out with Gustafson in 2008. As for Mark Martin's great 2009 season, I think that had more to do with a driver being refreshed more than having Gustafson as a crew chief, something that repeated itself with Jeff Gordon last year. Gustafson's real measure as a crew chief will come this season. If Gordon can get his old magic back in the big races (he's won more of them than anyone else in the sport's history by a landslide), and get into serious championship contention, which I doubt, then I'll change my tune on Gustafson, but not before then. And as for how many races so far as finishing the season goes make a driver a good finisher, an average finisher, or a bad finisher, I'd say the last four or five, and Jeff Gordon has usually been bad in the last five races of almost every season he's competed in. But I take issue with you about Dale Earnhardt, who you said was a weak finisher. Of the drivers I've seen in the over 20 years I've been following the sport, I'd rank him as either the best finisher, or the second-best behind Jimmie Johnson. 958. Frank posted: 01.30.2012 - 5:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With full respect of DSFF and CJS conversation about Gordon (who is done in my opinion after Spring Martinsville 2007) let us, V8 fans, chat a bit about upcoming season also. By the way there are some really interesting similarities: Jamie Whincup is Jimmie Johnson, Craig Lowndes is Jeff Gordon and Roland Dane is Rick Hendrick. Also I see a lot of Carl Edwards in Will Davison and Matt Kenseth in Garth Tander. So, myothercarisanM535i, I see no reasons for Lowndes to succeed in early stage of the season and perform strongly from round to round. Because of team orders - and Lowndes has nothing against in as we saw in Townsville - and his mentality. Definitely way less passion than in 2006 when he tried to prove he can win again in relatively new team. Ironically, he failed to do so because of team orders in Walkinshaw operations. Why GT. Because this driver and this team can't have mediocre years for 4 seasons! Don't judge by Courtney (who fell victim of his own glory but rebounded well since Bathurst) and by Ingall (yes, it's for money, but it's not cheap sport and Courtney's contract takes not small money) - Garth is Garth and give him some solid cars in the first part - he will be there. Also Tander had the most calm season-ending among all contenders you've mentioned. He won Bathurst in unforgettable fashion and has no goals since then (3rd in points is nothing for him). While JW & CL fought for the title, Winterbottom tried to get a win and Giz contended for 3rd. That's why Tander should be in best form in Adelaide. And despite I don't like Will Davison, I have to admit he worth some respect from Frosty fan. Starting from his remarkable Sunday in Clipsal and spending significant part of the season higher in standings than #5. It should be, yeah! 959. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2012 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's not that I think Dale is a weak finisher, I was just saying that at times, like Gordon, he had amassed a huge points lead and his production trailed off towards the end simply because he and his team were in "let's just not wreck or blow up" mode which severly hampers your chances of winning. I was just trying to draw a parallel. That sometimes finishes might look worse than they actually are. Trust me, as an Earnhardt fan, his ability to either put the heat on down the stretch ('90, '95) or cut on the afterburners to pull away from people making late season charges ('80, '86, '93, '94) or just to put on strong finishes after disappointing seasons because he had pride and/or to remind everyone he was still Dale Freaking Earnhardt('79, '85, '95, '97, '99) is a huge point of pride for me. Its that last point that tells me a lot about Jeff. The ability to put a frustrating season with no hope of a title behind you and finish strong despite the mental disappointment and fatigue that comes along with that. Basically being a Bizarro Kyle Busch and not throwing in the towel. Jeff's finishes to '00, '03, '05, and '09 say a lot to me. 960. cjs3872 posted: 01.30.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah DSFF, Gordon didn't finish any of those four seasons you mentioned strong, nor has he ever really put on the pressure from behind the way Earnhardt, Johnson, Stewart, or Waltrip did, which kind of makes my point for me. 961. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.30.2012 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (or anyone else that cares) Friday on ESPN2 10am it'll be Stephen A. Smith vs. TIM TEBOW. get your tickets, get your tickets here. FREE ADMISSION, BYOB and bring your own snacks or breakfast meal. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLE. Hide your kids, hide your wife, and in your case DSFF, hide your posters of the Ultimate Warrior. :-P Its about to get real up in here. :-P 962. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will NOT put my Ultimate Warrior posters away!!! Just kidding, I haven't had a poster of his up since I was like 8 (coming up on 20 years ago), right next to my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles posters. Just for the record, cjs, I'm not saying Gordon is a finisher like Dale, Darrell, Cale, JJ, or Alternate Universe Kyle Busch. I'm just saying the whole "Jeff can't finish seasons" thing is way overblown. 963. LordLowe posted: 01.30.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey lets put the ultimate warrior in the 88 car I bet he would do a much, much better job at getting results then Dale Jr has been doing in the past few seasons. 964. myothercarisanM535i posted: 01.31.2012 - 3:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why GT. Because this driver and this team can't have mediocre years for 4 seasons!" Unbelievably, it's now been 10 years since HRT have won the title.... Garth Tander is without a doubt one of the most talented drivers in the field, but I still don't believe that HRT are capable of putting together a full championship effort. They haven't been a true force for a couple of years now, in fact I think 2008, when Will Davison had a stellar year was really the last time that they were a serious threat. 965. Spen posted: 01.31.2012 - 3:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I expected months ago, SHR has bought owner points to ensure Danica makes the field, and they'll be running the car full-time. What I didn't expect at all is who the driver will be. Apperantly, David Reutimann just stepped into s*** and came up with gold. Congrats David! Now please take advantage of this. I'd really like to be wrong about you. 966. Smiff_99 posted: 01.31.2012 - 7:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not so fast there, Spen.....according to Jayski, when Danica's in the car, she'll be using Hendrick or "SHR" equipment....in the races where Reutimann drives, HE will be driving Baldwin cars. I had the same reaction when *I* read the article, too. It was like "F***ing right! Reutimann's driving good cars!" and then I read further along....and ended up with a Price is Right losing horn.....*bum* *bum* *bumbum* *waaaaaaah* 967. Scott B posted: 01.31.2012 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had that reaction also. I hope TBR's drivers actually get something worthwhile out of the deal, and the "techinical assistance" is not just a smokescreen to make the transaction look like something other than a team with sponsors and deep pockets buying points from a team that's strapped for cash. Time will tell. Reuti at least is no worse off than he was before the deal, Blaney will have to qualify his car at Daytona and the next four races. 968. Smiff_99 posted: 01.31.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another thing about it that I just thought of.....wasn't TBR running ECR engines last year? How's THAT gonna work out now? 969. Scott B posted: 01.31.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #968, Yes, that is right. Also, Geoff Bodine has said he has a sponsor to run some races in 2012, and was looking to partner with an established team. Here it is the last day of January, and we still don't know where. That makes me wonder if his deal was a competing offer on the table to Stewart-Haas to run the races Danica didn't, or was otherwise held up until the TBR/SHR transaction was signed & sealed. He ended last season driving a few races for Tommy Baldwin, so it's a pretty tangled web. 970. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 01.31.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I will NOT put my Ultimate Warrior posters away!!! Just kidding, I haven't had a poster of his up since I was like 8 (coming up on 20 years ago), right next to my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles posters." Might i suggest that you get those signed by him while he is still around. He a public speaker and travels the country. If he is in your area you should go see him. anyone could have seen Danica getting locked into the 500. It was just a matter of time. Someone would have done it for the right $. 971. 10andJoe posted: 01.31.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *wakes up and stretches after long winter's nap* *pokes at new username* Hmmrgh. Doesn't have the same ring to it... 972. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nah. In real life the Ultimate Warrior is even loonier than his in ring persona. I'd be afraid I would get sucked into an actual conversation with him if I tried to get an autograph or picture. 973. LordLowe posted: 01.31.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of wrestling I have actually met Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker, Triple H, and Kurt Angle all in the same day. 974. cjs3872 posted: 01.31.2012 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like 2012 is starting the same way that 2011 did for Joe Gibbs Racing, and that's with a calamity away from the track as, again they had a fire and several team members were treated for smoke inhalation. Last year, they had a major fire at their engine building plant, which was the genesis for many of their engine problems last year, since they basically had to start their engine program from scratch, which resulted in many of those failures. If that's an indication of what's to come, Joe Gibbs Racing may be in for another tough year in 2012. 975. 18fan posted: 02.01.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To answer the question about Danica and the engine deal, Danica will run her 10 races with Hendrick engines and Reutimann will run his 26 races with EGR engines. The 10 car will run as last year's 36 car and this year's 36 car will run as last year's 35 car, at least in terms of owner points. 976. Frank posted: 02.01.2012 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) myothercarisanM535i, Will exceptionally great year was in 2009, not 2008. But speaking about Garth and HRT I mean that HSV Dealer Team was basically the same operation though some equipment and personal came to Kelly after 2007. 977. myothercarisanM535i posted: 02.01.2012 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, my mistake. They (HRT) are still a long way from what they once were. As for the HSV Dealer Team, I was under the impression that that team was what became of the old K-Mart team. The lines between HRT and HSVDT did get blurred a bit when they began sharing data, but I had thought that they were always two separate teams. HRT was always HRT, which is why Tander made the switch to the "top Holden team" after his championship with HSV, and then HSV became Kelly Brothers. At least that's how I seem to remember it. Could be wrong though. I'm a Ford fan, so my best memories of Team Red was the monumental cock-up of Mark Skaife's ownership attempt and many glorious occasions where team mates ended up taking each other out! Bias aside, they are one of the great teams of our sport, but they've been under-performing horribly lately. 978. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.01.2012 - 5:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe: can you explain the switch from 00andJoe? Not fair that the proven driver (Reutimann) gets treated like an ugly step-son. 979. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2012 - 9:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does JGR's building keep catching on fire? Does this happen with any other team? I mean, I know it has to really suck working with Kyle Busch, and to a somewhat lesser extent Denny (underrated in how unpopular he is with his team), and building quality equipment for Logano (good kid, lost cause on track), but to keep setting the building on fire? I hate to make such a serious accusation, arson is VERY serious and these two fires could have seriously hurt somebody, but is it really a coincidence that the shop of the unhappiest team in NASCAR has caught on fire two years in a row? Yes, it probably is a coincidence, but it still makes you wonder. Even Michael Waltrip has somehow managed to keep his shop from setting on fire. That is saying something. 980. cjs3872 posted: 02.01.2012 - 9:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, the fact that Stewart-Haas Racing is putting a proven commodity like David Reutimann in the car for the 26 races that Danica is not in the #10 car tells me that Stewart-Haas is already looking toward 2013. But I also wonder how it's going to make Reutimann clook like. If he runs up close to the front, everyone's going to say that it's the team. If he doesn't, everyone's going to put the blame on the driver. But there's another driver and team that could be affected by this, and that's Regan Smith and Furniture Row Racing. Remember that their pit crew last year came from Stewart-Haas Racing, so how the #10 car running all the races could affect the #78 team also remains to be seen. And on that front, remember the terrible times that Landon Cassill had with his pit crew in the few races he contended in with Phoenix Racing's #51 car? I wonder how Kurt Busch will react when he put back about 10 secinds every time he has to make a green flag pit stop, due to the #51's inept pit crew. The #21 Wood Brothers team with driver Trevor Bayne has the same problem, but since they're running only about 13-15 races in 2012, it won't be such a big deal as with Phoenix's #51 car. I doubt that Hendrick Motorsports, who supplies the endinges to Phoenix Racing will do anything, much like Jack Roush doesn't help the Woods with their pit crew, even though he supplies the equipment to the Woods to run their 35-45% schedule. 981. Matt G posted: 02.01.2012 - 10:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd like to expand the discussion about Carl Edwards not running the full Nationwide schedule next season because I think it's interesting. Others here have expressed that one of the reasons Edwards may not be running that full schedule is due to lack of sponsership. While I can't be 100% certain of the exact reason for the cutback, I do believe it may help his chances in 2012. Below is a list of the last 15 Cup Champions and the number of Nationwide races they participated in the year they won the Cup. 1997: Jeff Gordon - 0 1998: Jeff Gordon - 0 1999: Dale Jarrett - 1 2000: Bobby Labonte - 0 2001: Jeff Gordon - 0 2002: Tony Stewart - 0 2003: Matt Kenseth - 14 2004: Kurt Busch - 0 2005: Tony Stewart - 12 2006: Jimmie Johson - 3 2007: Jimmie Johnson - 3 2008: Jimmie Johnson - 4 2009: Jimmie Johnson - 0 2010: Jimmie Johnson - 0 2011: Tony Stewart - 2 Average number of Nationwide races run by the Cup Champion = 2.6 (Also, only twice in the last 15 years has the Cup Champion run more than four Nationwide races - And on both occsions they did (Kenseth in 03 and Stewart in 05) they only ran on tracks where the Cup Series was running in the same location the next day.) Finally, when Stewart ran his 12 Nationwide races in 05 and won the title, he ran 11 of them before the Chase started. In other words, in 9 of the 10 Chase races that season, he was fully comitted to the Cup side. These numbers don't prove anything because it's possible that guys like Edwards and Kyle Busch who like to divide their attention and run every race under the sun have just not been ready to win a Championship yet. However, I don't think these numbers should be completely ignored either. There have been many talented drives who have decided to run Cup and Nationwide events in different locations throughout the year and yet none of them have won the Cup in the last 15 seasons. So regardless of why Edwards is cutting back his Nationwide schedule, these numbers suggest that it should improve his chances of taking home the Cup in 2012. Keep in mind that Edwards has started 228 of the last 229 Nationwide races, a flat out ridiculous number for anyone actually serious about putting Cup championship trophies on their mantle. It's probably also worth noting that Edwards did miss ONE Nationwide race in 2011 at Road America to concentrate more on his efforts in Sonoma California. It may have just been a coincidence, but on a track where Edwards had failed to record a top 10 in four of his previous six starts and had never finished higher than 6th(when he was oh by the way flying cross coutry to other Nationwide races) he netted his best ever finish of 3rd. We'll have to see how this unfolds, but it's possible that Carl Edwards's infatuation with the Nationwide Series, especially in 2008 and 2011, may have significantly damaged his chances at becoming one of the true All Time Greats of this series (Just to be clear, I'm talking about guys who have won multiple Championships here when I say All Time Greats - That list is truly exclusive) Edwards may have very well already have had one Championship if his concentration was only on the Cup Series (we'll never know for sure though), and at just 32, a championship in his future seems likely to me. (I'm just not sure I'd bet on him winning multiple Cups now.) 982. jabber1990 posted: 02.01.2012 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) you are aware that without Edwards there wouldn't have been a Nationwide program for Stenhouse or Bayne right? I am all for them running both series' but ONLY if they are competing for both championships so, the cut-off should be 5. if they are running just to run they should run 5 or less so you have only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 34 races you can run 983. 10andJoe posted: 02.01.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NRF: Since Reutimann's running the #10 this year, his number gets changed in my name. ;) ...I'm still wondering why SHR didn't do the obvious thing, though, and have the 10 use the -14's- points. After all, with Stewart being the most recent past champion, he'd be guaranteed to be in anyway... 984. Spen posted: 02.01.2012 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would you really rather start 43rd instead of first in case qualifying gets rained out? 985. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't anybody worry about Reut running up front in the #10 car. As much as I would love to see Reut run well 1) to shove it in Mikey's stupid attention whoring face for letting him go for a past his prime Mark Favre 2) because he is a great guy with an unconventional modern day story of his journey to Cup and 3) to shove it in Mikey and Mark Favre's faces (wait, I already mentioned that? oh well, it bears repeating) it is not going to happen. Here is what is going to happen: Races Danica runs: Danica's #10 cars will be true SHR cars (but TBR cars on NASCAR scorecards), which are basically HMS cars. The same chassis and engines, 98% as good as what JJ and Gordon drive because that is what SHR gets (except for the last 4 races last year when JJ fell out of points contention, leaving Smoke as the only driver with HMS equipment left with a shot). Meanwhile, Reut will be driving TBR's underfunded cars (probably the #35). Races Danica doesn't run: Reut will be driving those same TBR underfunded cars with a #10 on them. I'm gonna go throw up now. 986. Anonymous posted: 02.01.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, How well do you see Kevin Harvick do on the race track this coming season since Delana is due to give birth in July? 987. Eric posted: 02.01.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Where do you rank the madness in Epypt in terms of fans in sports and racing behaving badly? The Madness in Egypt is over 70 people killed after a soccer match ended with fans throwing stones, sticks, and chairs during a stampede that over 14,000 fans stormed on the soccer field with 13,000 of theme coming from the side that lost. The fans of the team that lost jumped low fences and went on the field to fight. 988. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2012 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm telling ya, the rest of. The world takes soccer seriously. I was very sad to hear about Egypt. As crude as we can be in the States, at least we don't riot. Not even when Duke wins the National championship (as much as we want to). I don'tn see Harvick's situation affecting him this year. 989. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.01.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not even when Duke wins the National championship (as much as we want to)." I know you don't like Duke but do you atleast respect Coach K.? I enjoy Soccer, its REAL football. I don't like the diving and the crybaby soccer players but its a beautifal game to watch and the movement is constent, no "TV time outs." The crowd is into it (especially when the home team scores). However, they NEED to get rid of draws (ties) and use insteant reply (not for fouls, goals only.) However, people need to lighten up and not treat it like a religion. 990. cjs3872 posted: 02.01.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, if what you say is true, and that 70 people were killed by hooliganism at a soccer game, which sadly happens all the time in other parts of the world, though not to that extreme, there are no words strong enough to describe how terrible those spectators really are. That's why American sports fans, as a whole, are the most respectful sports fans anywhere in the world. They may not like their teams losing all the time (especially fans of teams like the Browns, Orioles, Pirates, and Clippers, to name a few), but I have rarely, if ever, heard of fans or participants losing their lives due to hooliganism at a major American sporting event. 991. Bronco posted: 02.01.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, people need to lighten up and not treat it like a religion." The same goes for any sport, for example the Vancouver hockey riot last year was disappointing and humiliated that city. 992. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I definitely respect Coach K. In fact, he may be the 2nd best college basketball coach ever (behind Wooden). Better than Knight, Rupp, and (God forgive me for saying this) Dean Smith. Can't believe 74 people got killed in that riot. Just heartbreaking. I love sports as much as anyone, but for the love of God, THEY ARE JUST GAMES!!!!! 993. Anonymous posted: 02.02.2012 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as the soccer riots go, I always feel this quote explains a lot... "The mob has many heads, but no brain." 994. Eric posted: 02.02.2012 - 10:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I actually heard of Soccer riots in the past or seen pictures of some in the news, but the amount of deaths in a soccer riot hasn't reach over 70 people in one soccer game since 1996. 1996 was the last time that over 100 people got killed in a soccer riot. Here is proof of the riot: http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/7531672/egyptians-blame-military-deadly-soccer-riot 995. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.02.2012 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The same goes for any sport, for example the Vancouver hockey riot last year was disappointing and humiliated that city." That right there a complete and utter digrace to the NHL, who is STILL trying to get back up where they were before the lockout. That right there hurt the NHL more then any blown call or dirt hit ever could/can. The only thing i've seen close to a riot is when Jeff Gordon got beer bombed at Talladega in 2004. Edit: not really, the Malace at the place between the Pistons and the Pacers was damn near a riot. People can slam Americans all they want to but alteast we have the decency and respect to know they when you lose, YOU LOSE. End of story. Even when you win you still can cause a riot, it lessens the taste of victory to almost nothing. "That's why American sports fans, as a whole, are the most respectful sports fans anywhere in the world." I agree to a point but when it comes to personal attacks and "fandom" we just as bad, if not worse then anyone else. 996. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2012 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Canada has an underrated tendency to riot. Surprising considering how polite and understated most of them are. They rioted in Montreal in 1992 after a concert in which Metallica's performance was abruptly ended after James Hefield got blown up by a pyrotechnic, then Guns N Roses came out, played like two songs before Axl stormed out for some reason (Axl is the Kyle Busch of singers, tons of talent and potential, zero brains, and the firm belief that the world is just lucky to have them in it). The States definitely aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But in addition to having the least amount of sports related riots (zero by my count) also have the least amount of racism. And that is just sad that WE are the best model of racial tolerance. Black soccer players in Europe get bananas thrown at them while the stadium erupts in monkey hoots (seriously Europe?). I also remember seeing footage from an F1 race somewhere where a bunch of fans in the stands painted their faces brown and held up a sign that said "Lewis Hamilton's family". Like having darker skin means you are less of a person. 997. Smiff_99 posted: 02.02.2012 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hahahaha the Kyle Busch/Axl Rose analogy is SPOT ON.... 998. cjs3872 posted: 02.02.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I should have used the term the most civil fans, instead of the most respectful fans, because us Americans can be just as rabid as fans from much of the rest of the world, but we are much more civil about it in most cases. By the way, Landon Cassill has just been named to drive a third Front Row Motorsports car (#26) to try to make his first Daytona 500, joining David Gililand and Firecracker 400 winner David Ragan on the roster. The car Cassill drove most of last season was driven by Bill Elliott in last year's Daytona 500 to a 12th-place finish. With proven veterans capable of running up front at Daytona as teammates, Cassill should have a reasonable chance to race his way into the 500. 999. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cassill: Needs a better ride, but could win some races with the right car. 1000. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The racism in sports is a joke. 1000! 1001. 00andJoe posted: 02.02.2012 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #993, I think Agent K actually said it better: "A PERSON is smart. PEOPLE are stupid." I find it amusing that there's a big deal being made over Daytona's "halfway bonus". Yes, the amount of money is more. But there used to be a contigency award that gave out cash for leading at halfway (or at the fifth consecutive green-flag lap afterwards, exactly as in the current rules) at each and every single race. Good to see Cassill getting a ride for Daytona. Yeah, I agree NRF, he needs better equipment. But bearing in mind that Gilliland (who has hardly set the world on fire otherwise) finished third in a FRM car in the 500 last year, the 26 has to be considered a dark-horse sleeper pick this year. 1002. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You accidentally posted as 00andJoe instead of 10andJoe. 1003. Scott B posted: 02.02.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm happy for Cassill to have a ride for Daytona. He caught a bad break when Kurt became available, I'd like to see him make the 500 and do well enough to get more offers (hopefully not start & parks). He's really breaking into Cup the way the way it was done back in the 70's and 80's, not an easy path but he does have some talent a lot of tenacity. 1004. Bronco posted: 02.02.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Good to see Cassill getting a ride for Daytona. Yeah, I agree NRF, he needs better equipment. But bearing in mind that Gilliland (who has hardly set the world on fire otherwise) finished third in a FRM car in the 500 last year, the 26 has to be considered a dark-horse sleeper pick this year." Now they're saying he won't be running the #26, but the biggest dark horse in this year's 500 has to be Elliott Sadler. Given his strength in RP races, particularly the Daytona 500, combined with the power of the ECR engines and good drafting partners, I wouldn't be surprised to see him make up for 2009 and win it all. Also what happened to 10andJoe? 1005. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2012 - 5:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm one happy Edmonton Oilers fan right now... however.... we still suck, bu the emotional high is great. 1006. Scott B posted: 02.03.2012 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, of the Cup full-timers from 2011, it looks like Brian Vickers is the only one with no announced plan for the new season. I haven't heard even a whisper about him recently, even with the start & parks or new teams forming. 1007. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2012 - 11:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "it looks like Brian Vickers is the only one with no announced plan for the new season. I haven't heard even a whisper about him recently, even with the start & parks or new teams forming." Not surprising. The biggest key for smaller budget teams is not tearing cars up. That display Brian put on at the end of last year scared everyone away and rightfully so. Driving with something to prove, to live up to his ridiculous "The Sherriff" nickname (has there ever been a less fitting nickname that wasn't ironic?) and trying to get a ride, he tore up a lot of equipment. Martinsville was an absolute embarrassment, it replaced Brad K's 2010 Sears Point performance as worst race run of the 21st century, and then he compounded things at Phoenix which cancelled out teammate Kasey Kahne's victory as far as attracting a buyer for Red Bull Racing. I would definitely go with drivers like Kvapil, Gilliland, McDowell, or Stremme who have proven they can be in an S&P situation without tearing stuff up (as opposed to McDowell in the #00 and Stremme in the #40, but that was a different situation). Even though Brian has a slightly higher upside than those guys (but only slightly). Looks like he'll be The Sherriff Of The Unemployment Line. 1008. StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted: 02.03.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But in addition to having the least amount of sports related riots (zero by my count)" You should learn how to count. Do you really believe there hasn't been any sports related riots in the United States? That's one of the most naive things I've ever heard. There was rioting in LA after the most recent Lakers title. There was rioting in San Francisco after the Giants won the World Series. There were riots in Boston after the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004. And those are just recent ones I can name off the top of my head, there have been dozens of others in the last 30 to 40 years. Oakland, Cleveland, LA, and Detroit I know for a fact have had riots due to sporting events, usually wins, but sometimes loses too. Actually I'm pretty sure there were riots in Denver after the Broncos won the Super Bowl in 1999. And of course this is just acknowledging professional sports, there have been numerous riots on college campuses due to sports. There were even riots at Penn State after Joe Paterno was fired, which is tangentially related to sports. Do you really not remember a single one of these incidents? Or do you truly, honestly believe Americans are above this sort of behavior? 1009. StevenWallaceCan'tDrive posted: 02.03.2012 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Adding to the list of sports-related riots in the United States: Detroit 1984 - Tigers championship Detroit 1990 - Pistons championship Philadelphia 2008 - Phillies championship Oakland 2003 - Raiders championship loss Boston 2004 - Patriots championship This was turned up after the most rudimentary of Google searches. There are many others. 1010. Sean posted: 02.03.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Martinsville was an absolute embarrassment, it replaced Brad K's 2010 Sears Point performance as worst race run of the 21st century" I think Earnhardt, Jr.'s performance in the 2009 Daytona 500 and Jeff Burton's performance in the 2010 fall Texas race (punting Gordon under caution) were worse than Keselowski's. Like Vickers, those two incidents may not have been officially "career-killers" but they were the moments I no longer took those drivers seriously (in fact I believe I predicted on both occasions that Junior and Burton would not win after those incidents, and so far I'm right). Keselowski's Sears Point performance did not really cause me to take him less seriously than I did before, at least not to that degree. 1011. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is a difference between running out in the streets and turning some cop cars over and busting some windows and what happens in true riots. Is it boorish and embarrassing and potentially dangerous? Yeah, but not a true riot. We don't kill people over sporting events here (unless it is gang related. Like the "Dodger fans" who put that Giants fan in a coma. And what part of "we are far from perfect" did you miss? 1012. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.03.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Philly isn't that city of "brotherly love" its the "city who booed Santa Claus." Anyway Roger Goodell is "thinking" of expanding the No Fun League/National Hypocrate League. to 34 teams. Yeah, lets water it down some more and make it bigger. I honestly hope this happens and it back fires. 1. There aren't enough players to go around 2. As big as the NFL/HL is, sooner of later, it to well run dry on cash. Edit: if the Cubs win the WS, Chicago will burn to the ground, book it. 1013. Eric posted: 02.03.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, They did more than booed Santa Claus. Eagle Fans damaged a vehicle green bay Packer Fans owned last year because their Eagles lost a playoff game to the Green Bay Packers. Drunk Eagles Fans tore out the windshield wipers and motors and used them to scratch the paint, broke off the side mirrors and left footprints and dents on the hood, trunk and roof. Source: http://articles.mcall.com/2011-01-11/news/mc-philadelphia-eagles-fans-vandalize20110110_1_eagles-fans-pukemon-eagles-gameE 1014. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The "victory riots" are just a bunch of drunk morons tearing up property and starting a few fires (when UNC won the title in '09 they set Franklin Street on fire, don't ask why). I'm not excusing it because it is potentially VERY dangerous, but there is no malice towards other people. These other riots are all about harming people. 1015. 10andJoe posted: 02.04.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Word is that Cassill might have a full-time ride with whoever bought what was left of Team Red Bull (which will be running out of the Randy Moss/Morgan-Dollar shop)... 1016. Anonymous posted: 02.04.2012 - 4:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There is a difference between running out in the streets and turning some cop cars over and busting some windows and what happens in true riots. Is it boorish and embarrassing and potentially dangerous? Yeah, but not a true riot." A riot, as defined US law: A public disturbance involving (1) an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual or (2) a threat or threats of the commission of an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons having, individually or collectively, the ability of immediate execution of such threat or threats, where the performance of the threatened act or acts of violence would constitute a clear and present danger of, or would result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual. Those sports riots sure sound like riots to me, the newspapers covered them as riots, the people arrested were charged with violating the riot act, and they were riots according to the United States of America. I guess the only person that wouldn't call them riots is noted Riotologist, DaleSrFanForever, with his PhD in Riotology. 1017. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2012 - 8:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you really want to say the two are alike, that is your deal. If you can't see the obvious difference then that is for you to figure out. I have to deal with enough ignorance on a day to day basis to explain that. 1018. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.05.2012 - 9:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) TV schedules released today. Question: Why does the NNS race at Indy start at 4:30 PM EDT? And why do they tape-delay the truck race at Dover? I personally find SDD ridiculous and refuse to even watch an ARCA race that is SDD'd when I know that the there is no scheduling excuse to air the race live. Especially in the case of Dover Truck race, where they replay Cup practice so that they can have precious primetime slot. I'd rather see them qaulify the NNS cars during the Truck race time and run the NNS and Truck races back-to-back at 12:00 PM and 3:00 PM. Or am I too logical for today's sporting world? 1019. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 02.05.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "ANy of you care to offer your thoughts on the new car?" I'm responding to this late, but that's because I was away for a while. I think the look of the new car is great, but unfortunately we won't truly get a good grasp on what it has to offer in terms of racing until we actually see it on track. I really hope this isn't yet another "NASCAR thing" (looks good to the naked eye but a closer look tells it's not so good) and that the new car offers us some exciting racing. 1020. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also have never understood the Dover Truck tape delay. Is it still the 1980's? And like you said, the reasoning is insane. In this era of the internet and social media where nobody can pick their nose without it being known instantly, you pretty much have to live in a cave not to know the victor by the time it airs. I also agree about the new car. Love the way it looks like what is actually on the roads. But they key will be whether or not it races well. That is the ultimate. Had the current COT raced really welll, we would have quickly gotten over its awful appearance and loved it. They have to somehow reduce aero dependance. Also they need to find a way to aero match the cars. They have done an excelllent job with the NWide cars which look great and seem to give nobody an advantage. JGRs Toyotas, Penske's Dodges, and Roush's Fords seemed very evenly matched. Chevy lagged a bit behind but they have no true Cup team running their Impalas and they have lagged behind in the Busch/NWide Series for a number of years now. In a related story, Chevys have won the last 7 Cup titles. 1021. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.05.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) haha Tom Brady you douche. Lost another one. I'm laughing soooooooooo much inside right now. Congrats to the Giants on bring the Vince Lombardy Trophy back to the Big Apple. "Had the current COT raced really welll, we would have quickly gotten over its awful appearance and loved it." It does race well, the teams have figured out how to race with it and drivers have figured out how to drive it (unless your Dale Jr. and Junior Nation). The only reason they are changing it is to appeal to those who NEED to find something between what is on the street and what is on the track. Which is an utterly stupid reason. The "racing on sunday, buy on monday" died 30 years ago. Who cares how it looks, it ment to be raced. the POSCOY looked a pig with make up on and it couldn't put on a good race if it tried. Oh and the POSCOY was also aero depended but people "forget" that. The COT works just fine. 1022. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damnit! I missed the game winning drive because I had to attend to a frigging drunk. 1023. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.05.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is it about the Super Bowl, the N.Y. Giants and amazing clutch plays/catches? Well, at least New England had a better game plan this time around, but Eli, his receivers and the defense show up when the game is on the line. Boo, Chris Collinsworth and Al Michaels seriously questioning the Bradshaw go-ahead touchdown with under a minute to play. I'd rather have a 4-6 point lead with .56 seconds to play instead of a 1 point lead with 20-30 seconds to play with Brady on the field. In addition, there is no guarantee with a field goal attempt and a tenuous one 1 point advantage with time for Brady to get into field goal range. In other news, the Pro Bowl might bite the dust which is beneficial for Nascar because the schedule change for 2012 Speedweeks might be a one season deal, for the sake of the teams, I hope so. 1024. LordLowe posted: 02.05.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tom Brady is the Dale Jr of football Over-hyped and Underdelivered and DSFF you should have just ignored the drunk and watched the rest of the game because something like that just isn't worth your time. 1025. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sometimes I think in these bigger sporting events like the Super Bowl, Daytona 500, Indianapolis 500, amd the World Series, there's a higher power involved dictating events. Think about it. The crazy ending that brought the dormant Wood Brothers team to the Daytona 500 win in the same year that David Pearson gets inducted into the Hall of Fame and puts Donnie Wingo into victory lane in the sport's biggest event just months after the man that gave hijm his first shot at being a crew chief, Bud Moore, was inducted into the Hall of Fame, with a car with Moore's long-time sponsor Motorcraft on it. In fact, I wondered if that was a Wood Brothers car or an old Bud Moore car winning last year's Daytona 500. Then there was the crazy finish that put Dan Wheldon in the winner's circle in last year's Indianapolis 500, as J.R. Hildebrand, who will probably never win an IndyCar race, had the race won, but came across another car that had run out of fuel in turn four that was 53 MPH slower than Hildebrand was. Hildebrand made the only move he could make, and he crashed as a result, handing Wheldon the win. Then there was last year's World Series. The Texas Rangers were two runs and one strike away from winning the title in consecutive innings, but the Cardinals came back to tie game six in the ninth inning and win it in the tenth. You knew who would win game seven before it even started. And now the Super Bowl. You just knew that Eli Manning was going to bring the Giants back to win. After all, Belichick and Brady were going for their fourth Super Bowl, and given what happened in 2007 with the "Spygate" controversy, you knew the football gods were never going to allow Belichick and Brady to match Chuck Noll and Terry Bradshaw with four Super Bowl titles. I believe that's why Manning and David Tyree were able to pull off that freak play on the Giants' game-winning drive four years ago, and that's why Mario Manningham was able to putt off his miracle catch on the game-winning drive in Super Bowl XLVI, and that's probably why no Patriot was near any of the Giants' fumbles earlier in the game. There's no way the football gods are ever going to allow Belichick and Brady (especially Belichick) to match the four Super Bowl titles by Noll and Bradshaw in the 1970s. 1026. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2012 - 8:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why am I oddly happy that Eli has more Super Bowl wins than Peyton? I like Peyton personally and have nothing but the utmost respect and awe for his ability as a QB. But I feel he gets too much of a pass for his playoff shortcomings, the way he falls off dramatically compared to his unparalleled regular season brilliance. I know why I am so happy Eli is 2-0 against Brady, the Pats, and Belichek. Or more accurately, I am glad those guys are 0-2 against Eli. I guess it is fun watching somebody who was absolutely KILLED in his first 3 years, and rightfully so, as being bum shit. But he kept his head up, kept improving, kept shrugging off the criticism, and once he became elite, he isn't going around saying "everyone said I couldn't do this". He just smiles and is grateful for what he has accomplished. He doesn't look like a star, doesn't carry himself like a star or anything. But he is now a future HOFer, the most successful Manning brother, and he OWNS Belicheck. He won me over. 1027. Anonymous posted: 02.06.2012 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you can't see the obvious difference then that is for you to figure out." People have died in those riots. Lots have been injured. Sometimes they lasted multiple days. Lots of property gets damaged. Police are called in to break up crowds. Sooooo sorry it doesn't fit your own personal definition, whatever vague or pointlessly specific definition that may be. Everyone else considers them riots, including the dictionary and the government, but you're just too smug and arrogant to admit it. "I have to deal with enough ignorance on a day to day basis to explain that." Yeah, it must be difficult to get up everyday and have to be someone as dumb as you. Knowing that every time you go to write something, it could be something stupid. I can see how dealing with that much ignorance every day of your life would be tough. You have my sympathy. 1028. The Voice of Reason posted: 02.06.2012 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He doesn't look like a star, doesn't carry himself like a star or anything. But he is now a future HOFer, the most successful Manning brother, and he OWNS Belicheck. He won me over." Are championships the only statistic by which you measure an NFL players success? So Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino? Brad Johnson is better than Dan Marino? And Dilfer and Johnson are as equally good as Peyton Manning? Here's an easy way to test whether or not someone actually understands NFL football: they think one single player is the only reason a team wins or loses. When you decide you want to start understanding the game a little better, pour over these for awhile: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8627 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1868 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3520 Maybe those were enlightening, maybe they weren't. If you cared about football, they would be. But I'm going to blow your mind wide open with these next stats. Before this season, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady had both played in exactly 19 playoff games each. Here are some stats through those 19 games: Brady - 424/682 for 4407 yards, 62.2 completion %, 6.46 yards per attempt, 30 TD, 16 INT, 88.5 QB rating Manning - 453/718 for 5389 yards, 63.1 completion %, 7.51 yards per attempt, 29 TD, 19 INT, 88.4 QB rating sources: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog// http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/ Hmmmm, those stats look mighty similar if you ask me! Yet, to those who only can only see the win-loss record of a TEAM game, Peyton Manning's 9-10 record looks so paltry to Tom Brady's 14-5 through the same number of games. Now why is that? Could it be the because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense? Or special teams? Because he's not the one running the ball, or kicking the field goals, or sacking the other team's QB? Peyton Manning was not good through his first 3 playoff games, that much is obvious. But since then, he's easily been one of the best in the game when it matters most. You say his stats decline in the post season.... well no s*** Sherlock, everybody's stats decline in the post season. That's because you're playing the best teams! This isn't NASCAR where you're racing the same guys every week all year. It only makes sense that all QB's stats have a falling off when they are in the playoffs. That is, it only makes sense if you take the necessary 3 friggin' seconds to actually think about it. Well I'll be d*mned, I think I've made a rational point, and backed it up with stats. Golly gee! But to people like DaleSrFanForever, all they see is that one Super Bowl ring, that Peyton Manning won ALL BY HIMSELF, and all of those playoff losses that were ALL BY HIMSELF. Because of course the QB is the only one playing the game! Tom Brady won 14 playoff games with no help whatsoever, the man is a god! Eli Manning has two Super Bowl rings, that makes him better than every other QB that has fewer! He did it on his own! No coaches, no defense, no nothing! See, these are the rambling of the ignorant, or maybe the insane. They're called facts, try looking them up once in awhile. 1029. Anonymous posted: 02.06.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Eli can not be called a future Hall of Famer yet. The same thing is true with Ben Roethlisberger. He needs more great years under his belt. 2 Super bowl wins as a starting quarterback goes not automatically like in the case of Jim Plunkett. I don't really want to go into it why he in not the hall of fame. Jim Plunkett is a debatable case despite not being as debatable as Ken Anderson or Ken Stabler. I brought up Eli needing more great seasons for multiple reasons. He really does not have any awards outside of the Super Bowl and outside of the pro bowl. Players had skipping the pro bowl since the 1990's at least such as Brett Favre. The 2nd reason I don't look at pro bowls because it is more popularity contest than what you do on the field. Troy Aikman matter of fact made 2nd team all pro teams despite never been league MVP, or offensive player of the year. John Elway was named league MVP in 1987, was on all 1990's decade team and 2nd team all pro different times in his career. Eli needs similar stuff like those 2 have beside Super Bowl wins or his stats become so good that they can't be ignore. The 2nd problem with Eli Manning right now is the fact he would be ranked below Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees if you don't look at Super wins based on body of work for their careers since they played in the same era and are currently active besides all of that have at least 5 seasons as a starter. Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger also are ranked near Eli also. The reason I didn't mention Arron Rodgers in Ranking compare to Eli because of the fact he did start a game before 2008. If Rodgers had at least 5 years as starters, I would rank him higher than Eli also. Rodgers has a league MVP and was named on an All pro team and those two things Eli doesn't have besides the fact Rodgers has more been more consistent every season than Eli. Rodgers is the accurate passer of the 2 and never was prone to throw interceptions at any point of his NFL career as a starter. I If Rodgers was counted, Eli at best would have been the 5th best Quarterback among active quarterbacks at best if you don't look at Super Bowl wins. I brought up where an active Quarterback being ranked in a career without Super Bowl wins because there is a question of how many players at one position in an era should be getting in before mentioning the Senior Committee. The thing with Senior Committee is there is a lot of players that really should be in the Hall of Fame already and aren't like in the case of Johnny Robinson. 1030. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.06.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous, if you are going to insult DSFF, then at least have the parts to post your real Racing-Reference name. 1031. TheChaseBlowsChunks posted: 02.06.2012 - 2:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ranking quarterbacks by Super Bowl wins only is pretty dumb. Lots of great players have never won. Some pretty average to below average players HAVE won. Some great players have played poorly and won. Some average players have played great and lost. There are too many plays in a football game, and too many players on the field, to point to one guy and say, "we won because of HIM, and him alone." I love seeing Eli win these Super Bowls, but these are Giants wins. The Patriots lost, not Tom Brady. The way Brady played, those could be winning QB stats in 20 other Super Bowls. Peyton is still a better quarterback than Eli, post season "success" or not. Same with Dan Marino. Really the only factor you can talk about in these wins and losses is the one thing you can't measure at all, and that's luck. I think Peyton Manning and Dan Marino are two of the least lucky players in NFL history. So talented, and yet so many pieces of their teams seem to fail at the most important moments in their careers. And when they've made mistakes, the rest of the team hasn't always stepped up. Brady has made mistakes, but the rest of his team HAS stepped up (AFC championship game this year, anyone?). That's just the way it goes sometimes, and that's why it's a team game. But you still can't point to any one thing and place the blame on it. You can only look at the way they played the game and the legacies they left behind, and in that regard Peyton and Marino are two of the best ever. Eli has had some luck, and Brady had some luck when they won their Super Bowls. And their teams played better than the teams they beat. It's a total team effort, and the ball has the bounce the right way when you need it. That's all football is. 1032. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The football HOF, just like every other HOF, has a very flawed system (and yes, this definitely includes the NASCAR HOF). Especially in modern times, it is very QB-centric and for some reason hates WRs. The fact is Eli has won 2 Super Bowls as a starting QB and won the MVP both times. That pretty much punches his ticket to Canton. I'm not saying I agree with it, and you make a lot of good points that I agree with. I'm just saying with the system being the way it is, for him not to get in, he would have to basically turn into Ryan Leaf for the rest of his career or bet on football (can you imagine Eli going wild in Vegas? lol). You do bring up a good case in Jim Plunkett. Again, I think this goes back to the perception vs reality argument. He struggled for so long in New England with mediocre talent around him and a bad management system. He is thought of more of a "Oakland Raiders reclaimation project" than a really good QB who needed to be in a good situation, you know like just about every other QB ever. Again, it is a flawed system that I don't agree with. Besides, when most people think of those two Super Bowls he won, they don't think of his excellent performances, they think of that vaunted silver and black defense destroying Jaworski and Theissmann (who, ironically, would both become insufferable prime time announcers) and Marcus Allen's thrilling run. Perception vs reality. BTW, did you guys hear Brady's supermodel wife ripping the Pats receivers? That oughta help their locker room chemistry. How dare Welker not be able to run full speed, turn slightly to his right, then spin around over 180 degrees almost instantly and catch the irregularly shaped projectile being hurled at him, and hang onto it with his hands. 1033. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2012 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anonymous, if you are going to insult DSFF, then at least have the parts to post your real Racing-Reference name." Nah, that would take guts. Again, when an argument breaks down into petty schoolyard name calling, I step out. I finished 5th grade 17 years ago. I have no desire to go back. 1034. Anonymous posted: 02.06.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TheChaseBlowsChunks, I used the word without counting Super Bowl wins on my post 1028 a first place when I ranked the Quarterbacks that are currently active. I don't know where you got the idea I rating Quarterbacks by Super Bowl wins a first place since I used the words "if you don't look at Super Bowl Wins" multiple times to make sure people don't think I ranked Quarterbacks by Super Wins by their Career a first place. All I was doing a first place was letting DaleSrFanForever know that getting multiple Super Bowl wins don't make a Quarterback go to the Pro Hall of Fame automatically. My post matter of fact went by NFL MVP, All pro teams, all decade teams, and Offensive player the year awards in terms of ranking a Quarterback, besides accuracy, how the Quarterback got its stats, how much better the Quarterback makes the team, and handle late game pressure. In terms of a how much better A quarterback makes the team is like in the case of Peyton Manning or John Elway back in the 1980's. John Elway had a bad supports cost offensively in the 1980's. He had 3 very good defensive players in the 1980's, but that team overachieved. What I meant by A Quarterback under pressure is Can he do what Joe Montana, John Elway did under pressure with the game on the line. Eli doesn't have any NFL MVP awards, never was on a first or second all pro team, or Offensive Player of the year. Eli is great with the game on the line, but that is it. Rivers and Roethlisberger are ranked near Eli for the reason they were not on any all decade teams, named as a League MVP, or Offensive player of the year once in their career either. Those 3 players are on my low end of going to the Hall of Fame due to that fact at this point. Stats based on a Quarterback in yards, and Touchdowns is not the best stats for indicating for what Quarterbacks should going to the Hall of Fame for this generation of Quarterbacks because the league is more pass happy than in the past such as the 1980's or the type of offense the Quarterback is in back of the rules the league has for Quarterbacks and Wide Receivers. The only rule the league added for Wide Receivers before the 1990's was the 5 yard rule otherwise known as the Mel Blount Role. The other problem with some passing stats is the type of offense the Quarterback is in may not be stat friendly like in Ben Roethlisberger played for part of his career or all in a career like in Troy Aikman's case. 1035. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you might be a little hasty on judging the NASCAR Hall of Fame on being flawed. After all, it's only had three classes. Give it six to ten years (if it lasts that long) before you make any conclusions. Now as for your cases for Plunkett for the Pro Football Hall of Fame compared to that of the likes of Ken Stabler (the fact that he's not in is a joke) and Ken Anderson, and other prominent QBs not in the Hall of Fame is this. Plunkett simply wasn't good enough long enough. That to me is why, despite his brilliance, Kurt Warner also falls below Hall of Fame standards, despite taking two dormant franchises to the Super Bowl. He was great, just not for long enough. Stabler is, quite simply, the greatest QB not in the Hall of Fame. Anderson is an odd case. He was the most accurate passer of his generation, but except for 1981, he never came through when it counted, so I say no to Anderson for the Hall of Fame, because unlike Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, and Warren Moon, none of whom got it done when it counted either, Anderson did not put up Hall of Fame-caliber numbers. Now because of his performance last night, Eli Manning is now a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame. He was able to get it done when it mattered most, a trait his more famous and record-setting brother Peyton has always lacked. And let's not forget that if it weren't for Plaxico Burres quite literally shooting himself in the foot late in the 2008 season, Eli Manning quite possibly would have three Super Bowl titles, instead of the two he now has, because the Giants were the dominant team in 2008 prior to that incident, starting 11-1. I also think that Manning's performance proabaly put Tom Coughlin into the Hall of Fame somewhere down the road, as well. One of the true tests of any athlete or team leader in sports, whether it's a QB in football, a point guard in basketball, or a driver and/or crew chief in racing, is their ability to get it done when it really counts. That is why drivers such as Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch will always have to settle for supporting roles while guys like Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, and Jeff Gordon among today's drivers always have the spotlight. It's because Gordon, Johnson, and Stewart can get the job done when the pressure is highest, while Edwards and Kyle Busch have proven time and time again that they simply can't. Put pressure on those two and they'll buckle. History tells us that and Stewart knows it. Why do you think he was playing mind games with Edwards in the final month of last year? Because he knows Edwards will crack, as will Kyle Busch if put in the same situation. I just wonder who's the next driver that will take the mantle of being able to get it done when it realy counts. After all, Stewart and Johnson have won the last seven championships between them, and their pedigree would tell you that's not changing any time soon. 1036. The Deuce posted: 02.06.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nah, that would take guts. Again, when an argument breaks down into petty schoolyard name calling, I step out. I finished 5th grade 17 years ago. I have no desire to go back." Well, to be fair, I don't believe he actually resorted to name calling, he merely used words to describe what he believed to be negative aspects of your personality. And for what it's worth, I think he's right on a basic level. Your original point that Americans don't riot over sports is flawed. I was in Detroit during a sports riot, and nobody around here was saying, "Yeah, I guess it was pretty crazy, but nobody really died, and it only lasted a few days, so it wasn't *really* a riot." My wife was scared to go downtown. We picked our kids up from school for a few days until things calmed down. I think I heard the estimated damage done was in the millions. All because we won some freaking baseball games. 1037. Anonymous posted: 02.06.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, I agree that the logic of Pro Football Fame is flawed. There have been stuff the past the scratch head myself why not a lot of Wide Receivers are in or the lack of Special Team players. The low amount of Wide Receivers should be blamed on the voters not understanding how the differences in rules for passing in terms of Quarterbacks and Wide Receivers based on the time they played or the type of offense that the Wide Receiver played in. The 5 yard chuck rule or otherwise known as Mel Blount Rule first passed in 1978. That rule actually opened up the passing games was created what is now known as the 2 well known offenses in West Offense and Don Coryell's offense. The West Coast Offense got its start before the Mel Blount Rule when Bill Welsh had Ken Anderson in Cincinnati, but that type offense really proved what it can do under the Mel Blount rule. 1038. StewartSmokesEm posted: 02.06.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh, I get tired of seeing people throw out this baseless, "Peyton Manning can't get it done in the clutch" nonsense. Does anybody actually watch the games? Here's some links you might find illuminating if you like stats: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8627 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm Now I have some other stats that are going to blow your mind. It's the dirty little secret that fans seem to want to overlook, because they can only view a QB in terms of wins and losses, and how many rings they win. They forget what actually happens in the games. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have nearly identical playoff stats through their first 19 playoff games. That's right. Now here's the proof: (through 19 playoff games, Tom Brady played his 20th, 21st, and 22nd this year, but we'll ignore those for now): Brady - 424/682 - 62.2 completion % - 4407 yards - 6.46 yards per attempt - 30 TD/16 INT - 88.5 QB rating Manning - 453/718 - 63.1 completion % - 5389 yards - 7.51 yards per attempt - 29 TD/19 INT - 88.4 QB rating Bu-bu-bu-but Brady was 14-5 through his first 19 games with 3 Super Bowls, he's so much better! Manning was only 9-10, with only 1 Super Bowl, clearly he just isn't clutch! Or maybe, juuuuuuust maybe those people talking about football being a team game are on to something. The fact is, Manning plays as good as Brady does in the post season. If you ignore Peyton Manning's first 3 playoff games, where he was very mediocre, he's actually been far superior, and more consistent in the playoffs than Brady since 2002. But of course those stats are still dependent on the fact that it is a TEAM GAME. So can we put to rest this ridiculous, and factually and statistically inaccurate notion that Peyton Manning is not a clutch player? Anyone that thinks Peyton Manning is a choker is just wrong. Pure and simple. And here's where I got the player stats, so you people know I'm not BS-ing you (once again, ignore Brady's last 3 playoff games that skew the stats, we're only talking through the first 19 of each player's career): http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog// http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog// 1039. Eric posted: 02.06.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Dan Fouts, and Dan Marino had teams that had fatal flows in terms of not winning a Super Bowl a first place. That is not on the Quarterback. The last time I checked, a Quarterback is not responsible for having poor defenses on the field. Bad Defenses hurt Dan Fouts and Dan Marino in their prime. In the era Dan Marino and Fouts played, you needed at least a good defense to win the Super Bowl. Dan lost his only Super Bowl because the Dolphins had no running game and that means the 1984 49ers outstanding defense can only focus on the passing attack on the 1984 Dolphins with their great Secondary of the time with their pass rushers besides having have a bad defense. Ken Anderson's stats actually were hurt by a couple factors. Ken Anderson was great when Bill Walsh was with the Bengals, but left the Bengals thanks to Paul Brown. Ken was the first great West Coast Offense Quarterback and Bill Walsh showed tapes of Ken Anderson to 49er Quarterbacks including Joe Montana and Steve Young in terms of how the offense is being supposed to operate. The fact is Ken was hurt by the offense the Bengals had before Forrest Greg became the head coach between Walsh and Forrest Gregg. Ken Anderson in 1978 was hurt in the preseason and it cost him to throw a lot of interceptions. The other thing to look at is the Bengals had a bad offensive line before they drafted Anthony Munoz and the amount time Anderson had a good running game. The thing with Bill Walsh was Paul Brown did did not see eye to eye with Bill Walsh. Paul Brown matter of fact prevented Walsh getting a head coaching job in the NFL before going to the 49ers. Paul did not like the offense what is now called the West Cost Offense that Bill Walsh created. When Paul retired as a head coach for good, he didn't give Bill Walsh the head coaching. Bill left as a result. You could argue Paul Brown prevented Ken Anderson from posting the stats that he should have and gift wrapped the 49ers that offense that made them the team of the 1980's. Ken Stabler not being in the Hall of Fame should be pointed to Hall of Fame voter Dr.Z because he was the most powerful Pro Football Hall of Fame voter in terms of power for what players should voted in before he got a stroke that left him not able to speak or write. Dr. Z aka Paul Zimmerman had a personal vendetta against Ken Stabler to the point that he said that he would allow Stabler to get in the Pro Football Hall of Fame as long as he lives. What Dr. Z said is on youtube the last time I checked and it is on the NFL Network when they do top 10 Players not in the Football Hall of Fame episode. When Dr. Z had his stroke in November 2008, Stabler is middle of his 2nd to last year of eligibility before the Senior Committee can pick him for being on the ballot. 1040. Eric posted: 02.06.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) StewartSmokesEm, I am hoping that you were not referring to Anonymous 134 and 128 posts because that person actually had Peyton Manning being the best active Quarterback and claimed Peyton Manning made his team better than the Colts really were. It looked like matter of fact looked like Anonymous looked at the Colts In 2011 after Peyton didn't play because of his neck injury. 1041. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2012 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, what you said about the teams that Fouts and Marino played on, as well as Warren Moon having fatal flaws on them are accurate, but they didn't play well in the post-season either. For instance, the Chargers were the best team in 1979, and drew an Oilers team without Earl Campbell, Dan Pastorini, and had about half its defense hurt and what happens? Fouts throws four interceptions to the same player, Vernon Perry, and the Chargers lose 17-14. The next year, Fouts has a sub-par game in the AFC Championship against the Raiders, and the Chargers lose again, and two years later in the rematch of the Epic in Miami, he throws five interceptions, though it was against a great Dolphin defense. (I give him and the rest of the Chargers a pass in the '81 AFC Championship Game in the -59 degree wind chill in Cincinnati.) And Fouts never did have a great post-season game. Marino didn't have that many good post-season games, either. He had inexplicable losses against Seattle in the '83 Divisional round, struggled in most of the '85 Divisional playoff to an 8-8 Cleveland team, and was terrible in the rain against the Patriots the next week in the AFC Championship Game. When he got back to the title game following the '92 season, he again proved that he also couldn't handle the pressure of championship play, as he had another terrible game. And as for Ken Anderson, except for 1981, he could never get it done when it really counted either. For instance, he had chances to knock the Steelers out of the playoffs in both 1976 and '77. The Steelers mauled the Bengals in '76, but after Anderson finally beat the Steelers late in the '77 season to give the Bengals the inside track on the division title, he and the rest of his team threw it away against a bad Oiler team. And Peyton Manning is right up there as far as not being able to perform in the post-season. You mention some of the stats. Remember that some of those are out of whack because he and the Colt offense got fat at the expense of a horrible Broncos defense in consecutive wild-card round games following the '03 and '04 seasons, as well as a bad Chief defense in the Divisional round in 2003. And let's not forget that his record in the post-season against the Patriots and Chargers is 1-4, including an embarrassing loss in the 2007 playoffs, when he lost to a Chargers team without LaDainian Tomlinson, who injured his knee early in that game, and then lost Philip Rivers, who partially tore an ACL later in the same game, and Peyton Manning still couldn't beat the Chargers at home. Not to mention that Manning was intercepted three times in that game after being intercepted six times earlier that season by the same defense. Peyton Manning's one shining post-season moment was that 18-point comeback in the '06 title game against the Patriots, a game he almost let get away by having an interception returned for a TD, which made the score 21-3. 1042. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.06.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are some more Peyton and Brady stats. Stats that actually matter. Super Bowl rings: Brady 3, Peyton 1 Super Bowl appearances: Brady 5, Peyton 2 Playoff 1 and dones: Brady 2, Peyton 7 Home playoff losses: Brady 2, Peyton 4 Stats are practically meaningless. What matters is what cjs said, doing the job when it matters most (love the respect for The Snake). How many records does Joe Montana hold? Unitas? Starr? Yes, stats in stick and ball sports are meaningless. If we only judged stats, we would come to the conclusion Wilt Chamberlain was a better basketball player than Bill Russell. And we would be wrong. 1043. Red posted: 02.06.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Super Bowl rings: Brady 3, Peyton 1" It's not like QB record could possibly be influenced by the other 52 players on their teams. Oh wait... Here are the defensive rankings (in points allowed) of Brady and Manning's teams: Brady: 6, 17, 1, 2, 17, 2, 4, 5, 8, 15 Peyton: 29, 17, 15, 31, 7, 20, 19, 2, 23, 1, 7, 8, 23 Tom Brady's defenses have had an average rank of 7.7, with 7/10 years in the top six. Even his worst defenses have been merely average. All three of his rings came with great defenses, ranked 6th, 1st, 2nd respectively. Peyton Manning's defenses have ranked on average 15.5, with only two really good years. In 2006, the year Peyton won his ring, he carried a defense ranked 23rd. It's absolutely ridiculous to compare these guys as if they're the only two players on the field. If they switched teams, I have no doubt their ring counts would be switched, too. Of course, we wouldn't want to let the whole truth get in the way of our favorite narrative, right? 1044. Eric posted: 02.07.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I did not spew the stats with Peyton Manning. It was StewartSmokesEm on post 1038. 1045. cjs3872 posted: 02.07.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about that, Eric. I deeply apologize for the error in calling you out for spewing those stats, but the greater point still stands about Peyton Manning's inability to get it done when it really counts. Much like Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch in NASCAR, as they've shown an consistent inability time and time again to get it done when it really counts. That's why the only way I see either one ever being a series champion would be in a two-way battle between them. And I wonder, who does some of the other posters think are the next drivers who show that they'll be able to get it done when it counts after Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, and to a lesser extent, Kevin Harvick are past their prime and their time? I'm not talking about just the next great driver, but the next group of drivers that can get it done when the pressure is highest for the next decade or so. 1046. Smiff_99 posted: 02.07.2012 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll give you 2 candidates right now: Edwards and Busch. As much as I hate to go against the grain, I have to let common sense prevail here. Everybody here seems to be SO sure that neither of those two will ever figure things out. Well, guess what? Regardless of WHY he's doing it, Kyle Busch's schedule is 40% of what it was last year, while Carl (as of right now) isn't running ANY NW races. 2012 will be the first year these two will be focusing 90-100% on Cup only. We have yet to see what these 2 guys are fully capable of because of their previously-overloaded schedules. Just because DW or DSFF say KB/CE should have 2-4 titles by now, doesn't make them a failure cause they haven't done it (as of now, with both being 32 or younger as we speak) Just WAIT......at least give them 2 years each (focusing solely on Cup) before weighing in on their abilities. They may surprise us, they may not. 1047. Smiff_99 posted: 02.07.2012 - 9:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh.........Keselowski, Dillon, and Stenhouse. Also, we'll see what Whitt does in the 88 car this year.....he could impress. 1048. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2012 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) STAT WAR! Red, it isn't like Peyton has been losing 45-51 like Green Bay at Arizona a few years ago in the playoffs. In his 10 losses, he scored 16 (at home), 17 (in Miami), 0 (in the freezing wind tunnel of the Meadowlands, but still got goosed while Chad Pennington and the Jets dropped 41),, 14 and 3 in consecutive years in polar Foxboro, 18 (at home), 24 (at home), 17 (in San Diego), 17 (in Miami in the Super Bowl where he dropped 29 3 years earlier in the rain), and 16 (at home). Again, compare that to his regular season brilliance. Only 3 of those losses were in cold weather where Peyton froze as well, scoring 17 total points in those 3 games. And as far as it being a team game, I totally agree. But this is the same team that scored the most consecutive 12 win seasons ever. So he wasn't dragging mediocre teams to overachieve like Elway in the 80's. Much like LeBron James has lost 3 consecutive playoff series to teams with worst records (his last 2 seasons in Cleveland they had the best record in the LEAGUE). This has to be factored in. Now he has showed brilliance in the playoffs too, but the underachievements outweigh them. As cjs mentioned, he dropped 41 and 49 in consecutive wildcard games against Denver, and scored 38 in KC. And of course his crowing achievement was his 38 point performance against NE in '06 in the huge comeback. But overall, a lot more questions than answers. Like Wilt, LeBron, and Kyle Busch he is miles ahead of his contemporaries from an ability standpoint, but a curious inability to keep it up when it matters. 1049. Scott B posted: 02.07.2012 - 11:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski and Stenhouse show signs of being able to close the deal in the clutch. Also, Regan Smith would get my vote just based on the way he drove away from Edwards on the restart at Darlington, a driver's track, in spite of being on older tires... except that with Furniture Row he won't be in the position to prove it very often. 1050. Spen posted: 02.07.2012 - 12:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While obviously we won't know for sure until this year gets underway, but Kasey Kahne seems like the obvious choice for replacing Johnson as the top dog in the title hunt. After Johnson gets done winning it this year. And next. If JGR can get their act together for a whole chase, there's a slight chance that Hamlin could seal the deal at some point. I have more faith in Edwards' chances of becoming a champion than I do Kyle's, but I don't see either winning more than one, if even that. Keselowski could win one - provided Dodge doesn't pull out of NASCAR, which would leave Penske SOL. Of the 'next gen' drivers, Stenhouse seems like the best bet for future champion. 1051. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.07.2012 - 12:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF you'll like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd0ru55wGL8&feature=g-all-lik&context=G255097eFAAAAAAAAaAA On the SPEED forums someone told me that out of (such # of 'fans' poled) that 85% of the people didn't like tandum racing.............. i guess those of us in the other 15% are the smart ones. Instead of vauling QB, why not vaule how said QB beat? i could do that but i can't. I have to go back to class. :-P 1052. Eric posted: 02.07.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, Kyle isn't going to be completely focused on cup. I am mentioning this because while it true that Kyle cut back his amount of races outside cup, Kyle Busch Motorsports will be running full time in the Nationwide and the truck series. That means Kyle will not be completely focus in cup as result like what happened with Kevin Harvick before KHI got sold for Kevin and his wife decided to start a family. Kevin Harvick himself admitted he wasn't completely focused on cup while owning his teams and I am sure that has affect Dale Earnhardt Jr. to a point also despite not having a truck team. 1053. Smiff_99 posted: 02.07.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right, not 100 or even 90%. But still.......going from a combined 80+ races a year down to 48 or so? HUGE drop....and with Kyle, that *may* be all it takes. 1054. Eric posted: 02.07.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At this time, I think Brad Keselowski is the driver to get it done when the pressure is high in terms of cup Drivers that hasn't been in cup for a long time. I really don't know about the Dillon brothers or Stenhouse at this time. There is a long time cup driver that should look at for getting it done when the pressure is high in Kasey Kahne. I mentioned Kasey for a couple reasons. The first reason is Kasey already won 2 Coco-Cola 600 races in his career before going to Hendrick and that means he can handle pressure in terms of winning majors. Kasey is only going to be 32 years old this year and that means is almost 9 years younger than Tony Stewart and is 8 years and almost 4 months younger than Jeff Gordon. 1055. Eric posted: 02.07.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, I was not talking Kyle driving in the trucks or Nationwide in terms of amount of races, but his ownership of race teams in the Nationwide and truck series teams being a problem for Kyle in terms of being focused. His Nationwide team is a start up team of Kyle Busch Motorsports and that there could questions on the amount of issues KBM will face this year. KBM could be very good from the start in Nationwide series or stumble out of the game. Kyle owning race teams is a distraction like it did for other cup drivers in the past such as Dale Earnhardt. One of the reasons Dale Earnhardt Sr.'s performance went down besides his injuries, and RCR being behind was Dale focused on DEI for his son Dale Jr at the time. Larry McReynolds even called out Dale on that in 1998 being more focus on DEI than his driving for RCR. Dale in 1998 owned teams in Trucks, Busch series and a cup team. Kevin Harvick owned KHI and don't do full time schedules in those series while being an owner, but Kevin did admit last year that being a Nationwide and truck series owner was a distraction for him. Since Dale Earnhardt Sr. and Kevin Harvick had focus issues at times as cup drivers while owning teams in the truck series and Busch/Nationwide series full time, Kyle is going to have the same problem. 1056. Red posted: 02.07.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol I love stat wars! I agree that Peyton has been hit or miss in the playoffs, and hasn't played as consistently well as he has in the regular season. However, I don't think it's fair to hold his regular season success against him, as if that somehow devaules his playoff performances. The fact that he took nine consecutive teams to the playoffs is amazing, especially considering the lack of talent his teams had on defense and special teams. I think a lesser QB would've missed the playoffs entirely in many of those seasons, which is why I'm willing to give Peyton a break for some of his one-and-done playoff exits. However, I think Tom Brady has had just as many mediocre/bad playoff games as Peyton. His Super Bowl and recent playoff performances have left a lot to be desired: SB vs. Rams: Mediocre, conservative game manager, only 5.4 YPA SB vs. Panthers: His one genuinely good SB game SB vs. Eagles: Relatively efficient, but not spectacular SB vs. 2007 Giants: Pretty ugly 5.5 YPA, took 5 sacks, scored only 14 SB vs. 2011 Giants: Decent, but a couple awful mistakes `07 AFCCC vs. Chargers: 3 INT, no big plays, struggled to beat a hobbled Rivers `11 AFCCC vs. Ravens: 2 INT, very innacurate, bailed out by Ravens' mistakes `09 WC vs. Ravens: 3 INT, 54% completions, anemic 3.7 YPA, truly awful game `06 Div at Chargers: 3 INT, 53% completions, bailed out by Charger fumbles In my opinion, Brady has only had three great playoff games out of 22: 2004 AFCCC at Steelers: 130.5 rating, 41 points 2007 Div vs. Jags: 26/28, 3 TD's 2011 Div vs. Broncos: 10.7 YPA, 6 TD's Again, Tom may have more rings, but his postseason performances really haven't been anything special. In fact, his playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers, just like Peyton's. Honestly I'd call their playoff careers a dead heat, with the only differences being teammates and dumb luck. 1057. Red posted: 02.07.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow do I suck at acronyms. Shoulda said AFCCG...all three times. ---------- "85% of the people didn't like tandum racing.............. i guess those of us in the other 15% are the smart ones." Are you this obnoxious in real life? I know you're in college, but on this forum you display the maturity of an average 5th grader. It's always: My way is better than your way, neener neener neener! Grow up, man. 1058. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just because DW or DSFF say KB/CE should have 2-4 titles by now, doesn't make them a failure cause they haven't done it (as of now, with both being 32 or younger as we speak) Just WAIT......at least give them 2 years each (focusing solely on Cup) before weighing in on their abilities. They may surprise us, they may not. " That's true. In Kyle's case he still has a lot of career ahead of him IF...... well, I think you know the rest. Obviously with his talent, it is preposterous tho think he'll never win the Cup (as long as he doesn't get blackballed like his brother first which is a distinct possibility). Eventually circumstances will line up. Like they did for Wilt when he finally won his first title and his other one with the Lakers. Like LeBron will eventually win one or more. But like Wilt did, like Peyton is doing, and like LeBron will do, Kyle will leave us wondering why it wasn't better. Again, as I have mentioned ad nauseum, I compare him to Gordon and what Gordon did at the same age in similarly elite equipment. When Kyle finally hangs it up, even if he does go on a legendary run, we will wonder what his total numbers COULD have been had he taken advantage of his mid 20s the way Jeff did. Would he have 20 more career wins? 25? 30? 2 more championships? 3? 4? "going from a combined 80+ races a year down to 48 or so? HUGE drop....and with Kyle, that *may* be all it takes." I agree that will help. That is less chances to lose his head, get in trouble, get distracted by something that doesn't really matter, etc. This gives him a better chance to have a year where nothing too crazy happens around him and he can still be in top form in the Fall. But ultimately, that is treating the symptom, not the disease. He needs to get his head straight first. "Hey DSFF you'll like this." Lol 1059. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, I don't think it's fair to hold his regular season success against him, as if that somehow devaules his playoff performances." I agree to an extent. You do have to look at it from an entire picture standpoint. But it is just really hard to look past the staggering differences between the regular season and postseason. I guess it is unfair in some ways, but peaking in January and getting that Lombardi trophy is what it is ultimately about. One thing I am willing to give Peyton a pass on is his performances against the Chargers. Whether it is the regular season or post season, they simply had his number. Just about every great athlete has come across a competitor or team like that. Montana always had issues with LT and the Giants, including having his career in SF ended in that NFC title game. Brady has today's Giants (more on him in a second). "The fact that he took nine consecutive teams to the playoffs is amazing, especially considering the lack of talent his teams had on defense and special teams." Again, this is still an overall team that had an exceptional record year after year. And for the most part, they weren't getting lit up in the playoffs. Obviously there are some excpetions like the Jets of Chad Pennington scoring 41 on them in the Meadowlands, giving up 31 in a win over the Chiefs, 34 in the '06 win over the Pats, and 28 at home to the Rivers-less and LT-less Chargers in '07. But in his other losses, the other teams had winning scores of 19, 23 (after an OT touchdown in Miami), 24, 20, 21, 23 (after an OT touchdown in SD), 31 in SB 44(7 of which were given to them by Peyton's pick six), and 17. To have a world class QB, those defensive efforts should have been more than enough. And they also gave up just 8 and 6 points in consecutive playoff weeks during their lone Super Bowl run. "However, I think Tom Brady has had just as many mediocre/bad playoff games as Peyton." I actually agree with this for the most part. Although I feel Tom has done more good things in crucial situations than Peyton (game winning FG drives in his first 2 Super Bowls, coming back from the dead against the Raiders in the Tuck Rule game, pulling one out of his ass in the '06 Chargers game), I also think his playoff performances are a bit overrated. He did his best from '01-'06 when he was mostly a game manager. Don't screw up, and let that defense at their peak with guys like Bruschi, Vrabel, Law, and Harrison shut the other guys down. But he also did his job and avoided the crucial mistake until the end of the '06 AFC title game. From there, he really hasn't done that well in the playoffs. Two home losses that were 1 and dones and 2 Super Bowl losses where he was not what he was in the regular season. When talking about Tom in the playoffs, you kinda have to seperate pre and post '07. "SB vs. Panthers: His one genuinely good SB game" Yeah yeah, I remember. Why did he have to pick that game to truly do his best Montana/Elway impersonation? I'm now gonna go slam my head through a window. 1060. Bronco posted: 02.07.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At this time, I think Brad Keselowski is the driver to get it done when the pressure is high in terms of cup Drivers that hasn't been in cup for a long time. I really don't know about the Dillon brothers or Stenhouse at this time." I disagree, none of Brad's 3 wins in 2011 involved him prevailing in a high pressure situation, and it's not he liked he raced his way into the chase at the last minute either. That's not to say his wins at Kansas, Pocono and Bristol weren't legit, because they were, its just that he was able to cruise to those wins at the end rather than having to battle it out in the last few laps. Apart from those drivers that are already champions, two drivers that I think perform well under pressure are Kevin Harvick and Earnhardt Jr (although to a lesser extent). 1061. Eric posted: 02.07.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I mentioned Brad for the fact cjs387 asked about who you think next drivers who show that they'll be able to get it done when it counts after Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, and to a lesser extent, Kevin Harvick are past their prime and their time. Brad is much younger than Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, and Harvick are. Your two picks don't count because CJS387 was referring to the future of cup racing in terms of clutch driver when Stewart, Gordon, Johnson, and Harvick are past their prime and time. Dale Jr. is in the age group as Johnson and Harvick that are slightly year than Gordon, and Stewart. Dale Jr. is a almost a year older than Jimmie Johnson and a year and almost 2 months older than Kevin Harvick. The reason Kasey Kahne counts because is the fact he is younger than all 4 drivers CJS387 mentioned and the fact Hendrick is the best equipment he will race in. 1062. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.07.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Are you this obnoxious in real life? I know you're in college, but on this forum you display the maturity of an average 5th grader. It's always: My way is better than your way, neener neener neener! Grow up, man." Someone on another forum posted that comment, i guess i should have put a smiley behond it. Wasn't meant to make people mad but you did. Try to lighten up a little. Peyton Manning: Hall of Famer (IMHO he is) Tom Brady: Hall of Famer Eli Manning: another ring and maybe break a record or 2 then he will be. But he is in the "Elite QB" category. Can't take that away from him. 1063. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.08.2012 - 5:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My dad always says that once the playoffs starts regular season stats are thrown out the window, and the winners are always those who respond best to the pressure. In theory, the ability to handle the pressure of a do or die is not the same as the pressure in a (depending on the circumstances) meaningless regular season game. "Neener...neener...neener." Now, now, just because Subaru is a neenerhead... Whoops, sorry Subaru. DSFF: Remember, every Brady Super Bowl win had Adam Vinateri to bail them out from going to overtime. BTW, don't try to slam your head through one of those hurricane windows; you'll kill yourself, and we want you here to rebuke us. 1064. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2012 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BTW, don't try to slam your head through one of those hurricane windows; you'll kill yourself, and we want you here to rebuke us." You are right. After I posted that, I remembered how important I am and decided against hurting myself :) "Remember, every Brady Super Bowl win had Adam Vinateri to bail them out from going to overtime." They also knew what the defense was gonna do because they were videotaping the defensive signals. That is the main constant of the Brady Super Bowls, and the elephant in the room for his career until he wins one post-Spygate. "none of Brad's 3 wins in 2011 involved him prevailing in a high pressure situation" What about Pocono? He had Kyle Busch in the fastest car hounding him for entire last 13 laps. One slip in any of those 3 turns on any of those laps on that tricky track and Kyle scoots by and wins going away. Brad slipped by on a restart with Kyle momentarily battling JJ then clung on for dear life. Oh yeah, his ankle had been broken 4 days prior, and had to have it drained during the red flag. 1065. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2012 - 1:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Apart from those drivers that are already champions, two drivers that I think perform well under pressure are Kevin Harvick and Earnhardt Jr (although to a lesser extent)." Harvick has had the ultimate "optical illusion" career. You know those pictures that you can look at and see one thing, but then look at it from another direction and see something totally different (ie the duck/rabbit picture)? That is Harvick's career. You look at it one way, see he has won the Daytona 500, the Brickyard 400, the Coke 600, the All Star race, and finished Top 5 in points 5 times in 11 seasons and think he must be one of the top guys of his era. But then you look at his curiously low win total and % in comparison to others (since the beginning of '01, Gordon, JJ, Stewart, KyBu, KuBu, Carl, Kenseth, Biff, and Denny have better percentages with Kasey Kahne being surprisingly close). You look at the fact that when he has a down year, he does it right. He was only the 3rd best RCR car in their down years of '02 and '09 making you wonder if he mails it in when he realizes his organization is struggling. You look at his stunning streakiness, like the fact he has 7 wins in just the last 1 and 3/4 seasons which followed a 3+ year winless streak. You look at the fact that, in just 11 seasons, he has already had FIVE winless streaks reach a year or more (with the aforementioned 3 year streak only counting as one). He has by far the hardest career to analyze, to try to put in perspective. It doesn't even have a predictable pattern. He has been championship caliber ('06, '10, '11), really good ('01, '03, '08), mediocre ('04, '05, '07) and awful ('02 and '09). In no particular order! Does that mean he is due for an awful season this year so he can have 3 seasons in all 4 categories? Just when you think you have him nailed down, he stuns the crap outta you. The rookie taking over Dale's car for an emotionally ravaged team? Disaster waiting to happen. Whoops! He excelled driving for a team that was expecting to work with a seasoned vet, not a rookie. So he must be the next big thing in NASCAR, and should only build on that in '02 now that the team is actually preparing for a season with him. Whoops! He had his worst season, lowlighted by a Martinsville suspension, and finished 21st in points. So it will definitely take a while for him to dig out of that hole, so '03 will be a rebuilding year. Whoops! He finished 5th after being 2nd in points for much of the summer. So NOW he can build on that and become an elite driver in '04. Whoops! He went winless and missed the inaugural cha$e, finishing 14th. But that's ok, we have a definite good-bad-good-bad pattern to his career. So '05 will be another bounceback year. Whoops! A repeat of '04, he finishes 14th in points again. So he is at odds with Richard and ready to move to a new team which means '06 will be a disaster. Whoops! His winningest season yet with 5 wins and his strongest season to date in terms of pure speed. He follows this with a thrilling Daytona 500 win meaning he now has the momentum to take '07 by storm. Whoops! He wouldn't again win for over 3 years including a disaster of '09 with Kevin publically stating he wants out by season's end. So 2010 will be his worst season yet. Whoops! He wins 3 races, would have walked away with the Cup under the old format, has a chance at the Cup in the last race, and finishes 3rd. But Kevin can't put two good seasons in a row together. 2011 will be disappointing. Whoops! 4 wins and another 3rd place finish. So how do you put that in perspective? How do you rank that against others in his era in his class (2nd tier, the group below the legends Gordon, JJ, and Smoke)? And how the hell do you predict how 2012 will go for him? RCR is scaling back to 3 teams, consolidating their resources and shedding some dead weight. Also, Kevin demanded his whole crew get fired. Richard accomodated him and gave him the people he wants. So he will be motivated to vindicate his decision. Should be a great season right? Right? 1066. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.08.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He has by far the hardest career to analyze, to try to put in perspective. It doesn't even have a predictable pattern. He has been championship caliber ('06, '10, '11), really good ('01, '03, '08), mediocre ('04, '05, '07) and awful ('02 and '09). In no particular order! Does that mean he is due for an awful season this year so he can have 3 seasons in all 4 categories?" I disagree about 2004, they were HORRIBLE. All 3 teams stunk up the joint. The only races i can remember either Robby, Kevin had a shot at winning was both Talladega races. Robby run up front at the 2nd Atlanta race and had a shot to win Darlington. Kevin had a shot to win the 500 (if it wasn't for the big wreck), 3rd at Bristol 1, 3rd at Talldega 1, 2nd at Talladega 2 and 4th Phonix 2. Other then that what else did they do? Oh yeah Harvick got into with Kasey Kahne (imagen that). Concidering that both Robby and Harvick were BOTH championship contenders in 2003. Robby was until the wheels feel off. 2003 was the about the only time i can remember each RCR car being a championship contender post Big E passing. Edit: my bad in 2006 Jeff Burton and Kevin were championshp contenders. 1067. cjs3872 posted: 02.08.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, let's not forget that 2004 was the year that two teams, Hendrick Motorsports and Dale Earnhardt, Inc., gained a sizeable advantage on the rest of the field by running insanely low gear ratios. Prior to 2004, teams were really pshuinhg it by running 9500 RPM. In 2004, they were pushing 11,000 in some cases. One reason that teams like RCR and JGR struggled so badly is that they were, and still are conservative when it comes to their engines. But as result of that, the RCR and JGR cars were woefully short on horsepower in 2004. In the second half of that season, Roush gained some ground with radical chassis setups that other teams were forced to run, but HMS and DEI had a huge horsepower advantage over the other teams that year due to the gear ratio they were running. And if you remember that when the gear ratio rule was instituted for 2005, who was the big benefactor? Tony Stewart and JGR, who won the championship that year Who suffered the most? Jeff Gordon (HMS) and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (DEI), who both mised the Chase in 2005. Coincidence? I think not, though Earnhardt was also struggling with a crew chief change, as well. A lot of people wonder why Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s performance has gone downhill so much since the 2004 season, as well as Jeff Gordon's to a lesser extent. To me the answer is simple? The gear ratio rule for 2005 affected their performace more than anyone wants to believe, especially Earnhardt's, and the statistics back this up. Earnhardt won 15 races in his first five years through 2004. But since the gear ratio rule was instituted in 2005, he's only won three times. Now crashes have slowed Gordon down, as well, but he has not done that well at places he used to dominate prior to the gear ratio rule being instituted. He hasn't won at Martinsville since 2005, hasn't been a serious factor at the road courses for years, and hasn't won at Indy since 2004, the last year for open gears. And also, has anyone noticed that Gordon, and Hendrick Motorsports in general, have not consistently been serious factors at Daytona and Talladega since the gear ratio rule was first introduced for those two tracks in 2007. 1068. Bronco posted: 02.08.2012 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harvick has had the ultimate "optical illusion" career." When I meant Harvick performs well under pressure, I was referring to his ability to close the deal on wins if he's anywhere near the leader with the laps winding down. I'm talking Atlanta '01, Daytona '07, Talladega '10, Daytona '10, California '11 Martinsville '11, how he nearly won the fall 2010 Talladega race with a damaged racecar, nearly tying the mark of 3 straight RP wins. And I'm also referring to his ability to qualify like crap each and every week but still rack up the top 10 finishes at a race's end. With Dale Jr, I'm referring to how he usually gets it done when the focus is on him. Winning the 2001 Pepsi 400, the first race at Daytona since the tragic accident at February. Winning the 2010 NNS Daytona 250 in the Wrangler Tribute car, when all eyes were focused on how his last ride in the #3 would turn out. Winning the Bud Shootout and Duel in '08 when everyone wanted to see what he would do in the #88. Being able to win numerous RP races by fending off all those other drivers hounding him every lap. Proving to everyone in 2011 with a new crew chief and a chase caliber team that he hadn't forgotten how to drive and the struggles of '09 and '10 were due to his incompetent crew chief with who even Mark Martin finished 22nd in points. "And also, has anyone noticed that Gordon, and Hendrick Motorsports in general, have not consistently been serious factors at Daytona and Talladega since the gear ratio rule was first introduced for those two tracks in 2007." Actually Gordon swept the Talladega races and Shrub was inches away from winning the Pepsi 400 that year, so I think that was the last year that HMS dominant at RP tracks. After that the new car came and JGR dominated ('08-'09) when they had the wing, and from ('10-'11) the ECR powered cars were the ones to beat. HMS has a lockdown on qualifying at RP tracks, but they don't have the best race package yet. 1069. cjs3872 posted: 02.08.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, the gear ratio rule wasn't introduced for the plate races until the current car's first plate race, which was the fall race at Talladega in 2007, so your point about Gordon sweeping the Talladega races (he and his teammates ran in the back for virtualy the entire day in the fall race there that year), as well as Kyle Busch getting nipped in the Firecracker 400 by Jamie McMurray doesn't fly, because in the spring Talladega race and both Daytona races in 2007, they were running open gears, meaning that the teams could run any gear ratio they wanted. One problem about the Hendrick team at the plate tracks is that they have had an organizational agreement to ride in the back of the field for most of the race for the last three or four years, so we don't know how good their cars really are in the race, because they never show it. For instance, Jeff Gordon and Mark Martin intentionally ran about a half lap behind at Talladega last fall. But also, let's not forget that three of their cars were knocked out of contention in the huge crash on the 29th lap in last year's Daytona 500, so we don't know how they would have fared, because except for Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Hendrick Motorsports, as a group, never had a chance in last year's Daytona 500. 1070. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.08.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1995 Subaru WRX STi, let's not forget that 2004 was the year that two teams, Hendrick Motorsports and Dale Earnhardt, Inc., gained a sizeable advantage on the rest of the field by running insanely low gear ratios. Prior to 2004, teams were really pshuinhg it by running 9500 RPM. In 2004, they were pushing 11,000 in some cases. One reason that teams like RCR and JGR struggled so badly is that they were, and still are conservative when it comes to their engines. But as result of that, the RCR and JGR cars were woefully short on horsepower in 2004. In the second half of that season, Roush gained some ground with radical chassis setups that other teams were forced to run, but HMS and DEI had a huge horsepower advantage over the other teams that year due to the gear ratio they were running." I forgot about that, but i to somewhat disagree. DEI was gaining traction in 2003 with both Junior and Mikey having good years (espcially Mikey before like Robby, the wheels feel off). The gear rule may have helped DEI and HMS. But DEI was ready to make a championship run in 2004 with Junior leading the way. HMS had Jimmie coming off a 2nd place points finish and well Jeff Gordon is Jeff Gordon. "And if you remember that when the gear ratio rule was instituted for 2005, who was the big benefactor? Tony Stewart and JGR, who won the championship that year Who suffered the most? Jeff Gordon (HMS) and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (DEI), who both mised the Chase in 2005. Coincidence? I think not, though Earnhardt was also struggling with a crew chief change, as well." Jeff Gordon had also lost Robbie Lomas to The Kings team. I also sort of believe this is when Chad Knaus was starting to screw over Jeff Gordon and the whole #24 team (more so then the previous 3 years). Now i completely disagree on Jr. He had his championship losing wreck at Atlanta (he half-wrecked himself) and his sports car crash didn't help with his mentially either. But i do agree with the CC part, him and Pops Sr. weren't getting along and the Eury Jr. became his CC. DEI may not have had such a bad if Mikey won at Phonix 1. (he almost did, almost wrecking himself in the process. Gets kudos for not laying down) "A lot of people wonder why Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s performance has gone downhill so much since the 2004 season, as well as Jeff Gordon's to a lesser extent. To me the answer is simple? The gear ratio rule for 2005 affected their performace more than anyone wants to believe, especially Earnhardt's, and the statistics back this up. Earnhardt won 15 races in his first five years through 2004. But since the gear ratio rule was instituted in 2005, he's only won three times. Now crashes have slowed Gordon down, as well, but he has not done that well at places he used to dominate prior to the gear ratio rule being instituted. He hasn't won at Martinsville since 2005, hasn't been a serious factor at the road courses for years, and hasn't won at Indy since 2004, the last year for open gears." Disagree. Juniors problem was and still is with Junior himself. The Jr. of 2004 was having fun showing up the shop and racing. After that year he seemed like he didn't give a damn. Now he appears to be getting back what he "USED" to have. Plus Jr. can't drive the COT like the old car (which requires a different driving style) He may have FINALLY gotten a handle on it (but his fans still don't think so). Jeff Gordon was screwed over by Chad Knaus and Jimmie Johnson. NRF has gone at length on how they did it. Even tho HMS got a handle on the COT in its first year, Jeff hasn't won much with it. He now has gotten his arms around it. "Winning the 2010 NNS Daytona 250 in the Wrangler Tribute car, when all eyes were focused on how his last ride in the #3 would turn out. Winning the Bud Shootout and Duel in '08 when everyone wanted to see what he would do in the #88." That 2010 race Jr. HAD to win the race. It was win with the his favorite paint scheme or be concidered a failure for even racing it. Starting 08 with winning the shootout and duel races was what he needed to get confidence after having basically none for 3 years. Shame he couldn't keep it up throught the year, he may have had a shot at the championship. 1071. cjs3872 posted: 02.08.2012 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, Gordon had Robbie Loomis for the first 26 races of the 2005 season, including his third Daytona 500 win and his dominating day at Talladega. But he fell faster than a two ton anvil after that. And let's not forget that Loomis did not fudge around the rules like CKnaus and rookie crew chief Alan Gustafson did. That was proven at Las Vegas when Jimmie Johnson won the race, Kyle Busch was second, and Gordon also finished in the top five, but Gordon's was the only one of those three cars not to have broken the rules regarding the aerodynamics (in this case, the reae end being too high). And while the driver and crew chief at DEI could never get along, it's inescapeable that Earnhardt crashed to Earth and Gordon's performance went downhill when the gear ratio rule was instituted. But your point about what Chad Knaus did to the #24 team is well-taken, and is exactly the same thing the Gordon benefitted from when Ray Evernham did the exact same thing to Terry Labonte's team beginning in 1997 after Labonte beat Gordon for the championship in 1996. Evernham was doing the very same infromation stealing and hiding that Knaus began doing in 2004 and continued to do. So much so that Gordon was, in a sense, relieved to get away from that in 2011. If he has another big season in 2012 away from Chad Knaus' shenanigans and wins the big races and pounces at the tracks he once dominated (Indy, Martinsville, Darlington, the road courses, etc.) in the old days, we'll know for sure that Knaus also hijacked what should have been the best years of Gordon's career. 1072. Red posted: 02.09.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what else is confounding about Kevin Harvick? That his driving style diverges so greatly from his personality. By all accounts, Kevin is an aggressive, hot-headed, ultra-competitive person, yet his driving style is very conservative. Guys with similar temperaments (Kyle Busch, Robby Gordon) drive like their hair is on fire, yet Kevin usually just rides around and hopes the race falls into his lap at the end. He often seems more interested in his no-DNF streaks than he does in winning. You'd expect that style from Jeff Burton because that's also his personality, but it's just weird that Harvick drives that way. Maybe it's just RCR? 1073. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.09.2012 - 5:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is about time someone agrees with my conspiracy theories. :) But it should alos be noted that Chad has also given Jeff's team faulty information. How many times did Robbie/Steve give Chad good information about their car, and Chad would in return give them false info about his car and then Jeff would struggle in the race while Jimmie would get a top-5? Just adding fuel to the fire. However, I will say that Ray pressed his luck more than any of Jeff's crew chiefs since. 1074. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.09.2012 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Guys with similar temperaments (Kyle Busch, Robby Gordon) drive like their hair is on fire" I'd take Robby out of that department. He used to be that way but he has gotten alot better at it. (you should watch his dakar rally stage interview, its funny as hell) "Kevin is an aggressive, hot-headed, ultra-competitive person, yet his driving style is very conservative." Perhaps that is why Robby and Harvick never got along. (during their time at RCR that is. Now it appears they have buried the hachet). "However, I will say that Ray pressed his luck more than any of Jeff's crew chiefs since." Agree 100%. Ray even said it himself, for the times that Jeff and Ray spent together, 90% of the time it was how to make the car faster. BTW DSFF i hope your still alive, i know Duke beat UNC last night. but that ISN"T a reason to hurt yourself. Don't make me Ultimate Warrior body splash you. ;-) 1075. 10andJoe posted: 02.09.2012 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just one final, late note about the earlier Hall of Fame discussions: If the Hall of Fame was actually the Hall of FAME, one Manning, E. is already a shoo-in. Unfortunaly it - and most other HoFs these days, -especially- Cooperstown - seem to be much more the Hall of STATISTICS instead of the Hall of FAME. "You do X and you're in!" seems to be the standard, instead of "this guy was FAMEous and therefore deserves to be in..." /notyetcaffinatedrantOFF. 1076. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2012 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol '95 Subaru, I'm here. Luckily I was working and missed that last shot. But you can imagine my dejection when I heard Carolina was up by 10 with very little time left, then went on my phone and saw they lost. Oh well, that's sports for ya. For every "holy shit, Brad is gonna beat Kyle Busch with a broken ankle!" moment, there are nights like last night. Unless you live in Cleveland or Buffalo. And hey, I'll always have Wrestlemania 6! Take that Hulkamania! Red, that is yet another confounding piece of the confounding puzzle that is Kevin Harvick. I purposely avoided talking about his hot headedness in my dissertation on his career because I have talked about it so much in the past. But you are right. 1077. LordLowe posted: 02.09.2012 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Historically April 1st has been the day of some pretty memorable battles like April 1st 1990: Hogan Vs Warrior at Wrestlemania 6 in the Toronto Skydome April 1st 2001 Stone Cold Vs The Rock at Wrestlemania 17 Plus TLC II between Edge & Christian the Hardys, & Dudleys,(I was at that event by the way) April 1st 2007 Jimmie Johnson Vs Jeff Gordon at Martinsville in 2007 Plus Wrestlemania 23 in Detroit featuring Cena Vs HBK, Undertaker vs Batista, & McMahon Vs Trump Also this coming April 1st at Wrestlemania 28 in Miami will Feature Rock Vs Cena 1078. Red posted: 02.09.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It'll be interesting to see if Harvick's impending fatherhood has any effect on his hot-headedness. When Jeff's daughter was born in 2007, it seemed to temporarily energize him, yet ultimately mellow him out. It's like he finally had the perspective that there's more to life than racing. Maybe it's just me, but Kevin doesn't seem at all like a kids guy. My immediate reaction upon hearing of Delana's pregnancy was "It must have been an accident." 1079. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And LordLowe, April 1 also marks one of the worst days in NASCAR history, for it was on that night in 1993 that NASCAR lost it's reigning champion, as Alan Kulwicki was one of five killed in a plane crash near Bristol, TN, as they were heading to the race there that weekend, for which he was the defending champion (the spring race at Bristol was one of the two races Kulwicki won in 1992, the June race at Poconi was the other). Frankly, when I first heard that news, I thought it was a bad April Fools joke (it was April Fools Day, after all). Ironically, I was watching ESPN at that time and they were showing the highlight film from the 1975 Indianapolis 500, and I said that they were about to mention a NASCAR driver, because they were coming up the part of that race when the first pit stops were made, which allowed Bobby Allison, already one of NASCAR's biggest winners with 46 career wins at the time, to briefly grab the lead. 1080. Anonymous posted: 02.09.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I havent read the comments on this page in awhile but Im sorry this isn't a football website. I don't wanna read stats of Manning or Brady or whoever. Go on a football blog or somewhere else and talk about that crap. This is racing reference for goodness sake. And if youre somehow trying to compare NASCAR drivers to NFL players for their stats or whatever please don't. They are not the same. And Wrestling too. I liked it when I was five but I'm grown up now. They do get hurt and its physically demanding but it's scripted and not worth the time of day to watch. Talk about that crap somewhere else too. I don't mean to sound like the webmaster general of this website but come on people. NASCAR NASCAR NASCAR!!!!!!!!!!! 1081. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) April 1 is also my Dad's birthday. We were at that Martinsville race, and we will be there on his birthday again this year. And cjs, how could you forget what happened on April Fools Day in 1979? 1082. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you referring to the first Cup victory (of 76) by a second generation driver named Dale Earnhardt? I was only six and living in Oceanside, CA at that time, and wouldn't start following NASCAR for another decade, so how could I possibly remember that race, if that's what you're referring to. 1083. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2012 - 6:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell, I wouldn't be BORN for another 5 years. I just thought it would be notable. 1084. Schroeder51 posted: 02.10.2012 - 7:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The creepy thing is April 1st is actually my own birthday. Alan Kulwicki died when I was just 1 year old (I'm young, I know.) That's pretty sad I never actually got the opportunity to see Alan actually drive a race car (or a lot of other legends as well). Eh, I'd still take that time period over modern day NASCAR. 1085. Eric posted: 02.10.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alan Kulwicki died when I was in 8th grade. It stunned me when I heard the news. I became a fan of Alan Kulwicki fan earlier in the year he died and I was hoping for him to win the 1993 Daytona 500 matter of fact. The fact is if it wasn't for Kulwicki, I still wouldn't have followed Nascar at first place, but only open wheel racing. I loved Nascar so much, that I stayed being a fan of Nascar after Alan's death. I became a fan of Dale Earnhardt Sr. after the 1993 Coco-cola 600 matter of fact. One of my classmates matter of fact went to Greenfield for Alan Kulwicki Day in January 1993 and was pretty stunned to put it mildly when he heard about Alan's death. Alan Kulwicki day was when Alan was at a high school in his hometown and there for several hours with a lot of people being though including the classmate that I knew. Alan Kulwicki's death was a big deal in Wisconsin to put it mildly like Alan Kulwicki Day was and I am saying that as a person that lived in Wisconsin when Alan died. 1086. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was just nine years old, but I remember April 1, 1993 well. Actually one moment. Obviously this was well before the internet and 24 hour coverage of who picked their nose in public today. I remember us tuning into the local night newscast like we always did. The first thing out of the anchor's mouth was "Tonight's top story, Winston Cup champion Alan Kulwicki is dead". Just like that. I can still remember the exact feeling of going numb. I would unfortunately feel the exact same thing 4 months later, although it was a slightly slower burn as we had some hope for a few hours. 1087. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, for fans of the older Daytona 500 races, ESPN Classic is airing many of them the week before this week's Daytona 500, including some ESPN Classic has never aired and others they haven't aired in many years. Here's the scheudule, as of now in chronological order: Tuesday, February 21-1976, 1979, 1981, 1984, and 1985. The 1984 and '85 races haven't aired on ESPN Classic in over a decade. Wednesday, February 22-1988, 1991, 1993, 1996 and 1998. The 1991 race hasn't aired on ESPN Classic in many years and the 1996 race has never previously aired on ESPN Classic. Thursday, February 23-1989, 1997, and 1999. Like the 1996 race, the 1989 and 1997 races have never previously aired on ESPN Classic. The re-airing schedule fot Friday, February 24 is incomplete, though the 1998 race is scheduled to air. There are two other classic Daytona 500s set to re-air, but the years are unknown. It is unknown if any classic DAytona 500 races will air on Saturday, February 25. Unfortunately, there are no races other than the 1976 race from when ABC televised the race from 1963-'78. Those are the ones I'd really like to see getting aired, since only a few of those races have resurfaced on YouTube. Those would be the races from 1964, '66, '69, '71, '74, and '78. The 1963 race can be seen on a DVD released from ESPN about seven years ago. That means the 1965, '67, '68, '70, '72, '73, '75, and '77 race broadcasts from ABC Sports have not yet resurfaced. ABC covered the race on tape delay on it's Wide World of Sports series from 1963-'73 and the last 200 miles live from 1974-'78, except for 1976, when the start and the first 20 laps were cevered live, along with the final 60 laps. There were live updates on the 1974-'78 Daytona 500s before they went to the live airing of the race. After all, if they started the re-air of the 1977 Indianapolis 500 at about the halfway point (which they did when they aired all the classic Indy races last year), why shouldn't ESPN Classic air the old ABC Daytona 500s from 1963-'78. Especially if they're airing other Daytona 500s that they've never previously aired. 1088. Schroeder51 posted: 02.10.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I would watch it...except for the fact that my local satellite provider decided to get rid of ESPN Classic apparently because there was a lack of demand for it. That's really a bummer for me. 1089. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just learned the other two classic Daytona 500 scheduled to air on Friday, February 24 are the 1990 and 2007 races, which ironically were run on the same date, February 18. So here now is the complete airing list of clasic Daytona races scheduled to air on ESPN Classic the week before this year's Daytona 500 in chronological order: Tuesday, February 21-1976, 1979, 1981, 1984, and 1985. The 1981 race gets a second airing overnight. The 1981, '84, and '85 races haven't aired on ESPN Classic in over a decade, so it will be interesting how they're formatted. When the 1981 race last aired on ESPN Classic in 2001, the old Classic Sports Network logos were removed, and the original CBS Sports logos from 1981 were seen. It will be interesting what happens on that front where the 1985 race is concerned, since it hasn't aired on ESPN Classic in so long. Wednesday, February 22-1988, 1991, 1993, 1996, and the 1998 race gets an overnight airing, but will air again. As mentioned in the last post, this will be the first time the 1996 race has ever aired on ESPN Classic. Thursday, February 23-1989, 1997, and 1999. As mentioned in the last post, this will mark the first-ever airings of both the 1989 and 1997 races on ESPN Classic. The 1997 race gets a second airing overnight. Friday, February 24-1990, 1998, and 2007. NOTES: Unfortunately, other than the 1976 race, no other races from ABC's televising of the event is scheduled to air, which frankly, is disappointing to me, as I would have liked to have saeen those old ABC telecasts. Also, the races that are scheduled to air are listed in chronological order by year, not in the order they're scheuduled to air on that particuar date. 1090. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Schroeder51, I remember you saying that when I mentioned ESPN Classic's airing of the 1973 Indianapolis 500, I do believe. You can always see that race on YouTube, though I think you already have. One thing about the 1989 and 1996 race airing on ESPN Classic for the first time is the fact that they might show a particular part of those races that were edited out of the version that SPEED did a decade ago. For example, SPEED edited out the part of the 1989 race that saw the day's best racing and the day's biggest crash, which involved seven cars on lap 72. And their version of the 1996 edited out the critical mid-race pit stop sequence that knocked John Andretti out of contention. Andretti was leading when that pitting sequence started. I was hoping to see the wild 1983 race, since SPEED edited out nearly a full 100 miles of that race from about laps 74-108. And much of the 1984 race footage that was cut out by SPEED, which was a full 150 miles, was shown on the ESPN Classic version of that race. I wonder if they'll use their old version of the 1984 race, or do a newer version. We'll see when the races are re-aired the week before this year's Daytona 500. There might be a reason why it's been so long since those races last aired. It will also be interesting if any of the pre-race coverage of the races never previously seen, or not seen in years, is included. For example, the 1993 race coverage on ESPN Classic includes the entire pre-race coverage, but edits out, among other things, Rusty Wallace's terrifying crash on lap 169. 1091. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.10.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish i had ESPN classic. I did until my cable provider Comcast decided to f**k things up. Oh well. "And hey, I'll always have Wrestlemania 6! Take that Hulkamania!" Here is Hulk Hogens response: "let me tell you something dude, the Ultimate Warrior got lucky in that match brother. The Hulkster was ready lay a big butt kicking on the Ultimate Warrior before something got into the Hulksters eye and the Ultimate Warrior toke advantage of the Hulkster brother. If Ultimate Warrior came up of retirement, The Hulkster and his 24in. Patriots would lay waste to the Ultimate Warrior dude." Oh snap DSFF, stuff just got real. :-P 1092. ii posted: 02.10.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks, cjs3872...I'll try to catch as much as I can. 1093. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're welcome, ii. Now that is only tentative at this time, though I don't expect any changes. If there are, I'll post them. I'll try to get as many of them on my DVR as I can, though as I mentioned, three of them (1981, '97-'98) will be shown twice. Ironicall, the three Daytona 500s that ESPN Classic is slated to show twice were won by three of the greatest champion in the sport's history, Richard Petty (1981), Jeff Gordon (1997), and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. (1998). Also, all but two of the Daytona 500s that ESPN Classic is slated to air show aired on CBS. Those races were 1976 (ABC) and 2007 (FOX). I'm still shocked that ESPN Classic isn't going to show any more of the old ABC Daytona 500s (the races from 1963-'78), since ESPN and ABC are owned by the same entity, though I'm not surprised that ESPN Classic is not airing any more of the post-2000 Daytona 500s, though I'm a little surprised that ESPN Classic doesn't show last year's race right after the 1976 race, since it was won by the same team. And I'm surprised that they're not going to show last year's race at all. Maybe because of who won it (a rookie for the first time ever). Trust me, if someone like Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, or one of the Busch brotheers had won that race, considering how great the competition was (and I prefer the two-by-two style of racing over the pack racing because of how it split the field up and eliminated blocking), they'd be showing it, but because a rookie won it (or should I say, inherited it), and a rookie for a low-echelon team at that, and with a conservative driver along the lines of a Terry Labonte or a Benny Parsons (who won the 1975 race the same way last year's race was won), even though it was the historic Wood Brothers team, it won't be shown. 1094. Cooper posted: 02.11.2012 - 2:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are my 2012 Rankings: 1. Carl Edwards 2. Jimmie Johnson 3. Matt Kenseth 4. Kasey Kahne 5. Jeff Gordon 6. Tony Stewart 7. Greg Biffle 8. Kyle Busch 9. Kevin Harvick 10. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 11. Denny Hamlin 12. Brad Keselowski 13. A.J. Allmendinger 14. Ryan Newman 15. Jeff Burton 16. Joey Logano 17. Paul Menard 18. Marcos Ambrose 19. Juan Montoya 20. Kurt Busch 21. Aric Almirola 22. Clint Bowyer 23. Martin Truex Jr. 24. Jamie McMurray 25. Regan Smith 26. Bobby Labonte 27. Casey Mears 28. Dave Blaney 29. Robby Gordon 30. David Ragan 31. David Gilliland 32. Josh Wise 33. Joe Nemechek My rankings are different from what I think. I think the 2012 champion is Kevin Harvick. Why? Well, Kevin was very competitive last year even with the RCR stables struggling. With one less team, I believe RCR will get better and will be able to provide more resources to the teams. Kevin is at the point of his career where I believe he is mature enough to win and be consistent. Watching Tony Stewart last year, shows that aggressive drivers at a premium. I firmly believe the aggressive drivers have the advantage in current NASCAR. My comeback driver of the year is Greg Biffle. Why? Roush racing is still the #1 team in NASCAR. With Kenseth and Edwards as teammates, Roush racing could very well have all 3 drivers in the chase. Greg has incredible talent and has shown that he can be very streaky by pulling off 3 to 4 wins in a span of two months. Greg will shock people by contending for the championship. My Disappointing driver of the year is Martin Truex Jr. Michael Waltrip racing is a sinking ship. I would rather drive my grandmothers Volkswagen than have to step in the clunkers that MWR have. Let's be honest, Clint is the new golden boy for that team. Expect Truex Jr. to get kicked down the totem pole with the acquisition of Clint and Old Man Winter. My surprise of the year. Kurt Busch wins the Daytona 500. He then proceeds to get a huge head. He believes that he is the greatest driver in the world,and expects Phoenix Racing to deliver race winning cars every week. They don't, he proceeds to tell James Finch how crappy there cars are, and James will simply agree. The Daytona 500 win will be there only Top 10 all year. 1095. cjs3872 posted: 02.11.2012 - 8:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to make a correction on the dates of those classic Daytona 500 races. Those races are scheduled to air from Monday, February 20 through Thursday, February 23, not Tuesday, February 21 through Friday, February 24, as previously mentioned. On Monday, February 20, the races from 1976, '79, '81, and '84-'85 are scheduled to air. On Tuesday, February 21, the races from 1988, '91, '93, and '96 are scheduled to air. On Wednesday, February 22, the races from 1989, '97, and '99 are scheduled to air. And on Thursday, February 23, the races from 1990, '98, and 2007 are scheduled to air. Of note, the races scheduled to air on Feb. 20 were won by the legends (Pearson, Petty, Yarborough, and Elliott). The races scheduled to air on Feb. 21 had a distinct Allison/Jarrett/Yates connection, with the exception of 1991. The races scheduled to air on Feb. 22 were all won by Hendrick Motorsports. And the races scheduled to air on Feb. 23 all had a heavy Richard Childress Racing influence. 1096. ii posted: 02.11.2012 - 10:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that last year's race won't be shown because Bayne didn't contend for points. It was the first time in Cup history that a winner recieved no points. On a side note, in the 2011 Daytona 500 weekend, no winner recieved any points. I'm sure that it was a race that will be talked about forever in history, and there's still time to squeeze that one in, maybe replacing the 1991 Daytona 500. Last year's race will be on ESPN Classic next year, I could tell you that. 1097. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.11.2012 - 10:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is Hulk's real response: "Well you know something brother! I was talking it over the other day with Brutus the Braber Beefcake after we had se... some beers. And I told him exactly what I thought about the Ultimate Warrior. I just want to grab his perfectly chiseled body and nicely feathered hair and caress... I mean pummel him senseless brother. Then Brutus got really jealous because I had told him he was the only person for me... to watch pummel somebody like the Warrior brother. Then we had a lovers quarrell... I mean we argued over who got fight the Warrior. And brother, I wanna know Warrior, whatcha gonna do when I unleash Hulkamania on you. Hulkamania of course is the pet name for my pe... fans. Warrior, brother, you are hot. Oh shit, did I just say that out loud?" Warrior's response: *10 minutes of incomprehensible screaming/rambling about the evils of homosexuality* 1098. cjs3872 posted: 02.11.2012 - 12:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No they won't, ii, you can be sure about that. The 2011 Daytona 500 may live forever in infamy because of the driver (Trevor Bayne) and team that won it (the Wood Brothers), not to mention the records that were set for cautions (16, five more than the previous record) and the record that was set for caution laps (61, the previous record had been set when Lyndon Johnson was President, back in 1968). Not to mention that FOX does the Daytona 500, and only one post-2000 Daytona 500 is even scheduled to air on ESPN Classic, the 2007 race that had the photo-finish and the huge crash at the finish. Heck, they won't even air the races that aired on ABC Sports, except for 1976, and there were some donnybrooks in that era, and ESPN is owned by the same company that owns ABC, the Walt Disney Company. 1099. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.11.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF you went there i didn't. So eh yeah. BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Here are my 2012 Rankings: 1. Carl Edwards 2. Jimmie Johnson 3. Matt Kenseth 4. Kasey Kahne 5. Jeff Gordon 6. Tony Stewart 7. Greg Biffle 8. Kyle Busch 9. Kevin Harvick 10. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 11. Denny Hamlin 12. Brad Keselowski 13. A.J. Allmendinger 14. Ryan Newman 15. Jeff Burton 16. Joey Logano 17. Paul Menard 18. Marcos Ambrose 19. Juan Montoya 20. Kurt Busch 21. Aric Almirola 22. Clint Bowyer 23. Martin Truex Jr. 24. Jamie McMurray 25. Regan Smith 26. Bobby Labonte 27. Casey Mears 28. Dave Blaney 29. Robby Gordon 30. David Ragan 31. David Gilliland 32. Josh Wise 33. Joe Nemechek" Why is Robby 29th? He isn't even worthy of being 29th and he may not make it the whole year. VERY wishful thinking. "My comeback driver of the year is Greg Biffle. Why? Roush racing is still the #1 team in NASCAR. With Kenseth and Edwards as teammates, Roush racing could very well have all 3 drivers in the chase. Greg has incredible talent and has shown that he can be very streaky by pulling off 3 to 4 wins in a span of two months. Greg will shock people by contending for the championship." I hope your right. But i don't see it, Carl will get the most good stuff, Greg will get what is left. 1100. 12345Dude posted: 02.11.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going to post my season preview and respond to some comments. Need to be more active on here, you guys on here are smarter then any of the "so called experts". My season preview is huge, and should create some great debates. Jon Wes Townley the guy that got free nationwide rides because his father owns Zaxbys was planning to run full time in trucks this year. Once again because his family owns Zaxbys and he has sponcership. Well now he just got caught with a DUI. Wrecked his car. LET THE RANTS BEGIN!!!!!! 1101. cjs3872 posted: 02.11.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, DSFF might have Robby Gordon 29th because there might not be more than 26 or 27 teams running all the races competently. Ever thought of that? And Robby probably won't run all the races, even if his team does. There's a reason I have predicted the possibility of double-digit start-and-parks in some races this year, and possibly even a couple in the Daytona 500, which hasn't happened since Raymond Williams S&P'd in the 1972 race. After all, we even had a few in races like the Brickyard 400, Coca-Cola 600, and southern 500 last year, and they're three of the five or six biggest events on the circuit. If DSFF is anywhere even close to being right on the teams from 25th-33rd, the depth of the field in NASCAR's top series may be in even worse shape than I thought. Remember that DSFF has Casey Mears in 27th, Dave Blaney in 28th, Josh Wise in 32nd, and Joe Nemechek in 33rd. All those drivers with the possible exception of Blaney in Tommy Baldwin's #36 car will probably do some start-and-parks next year, or not even show up in some races. Frankly, I see the FRM cars in 26th and 27th by default. And let's not forget David Reutimann will run 26 races in 2012. Who's to say that he won't be ahead of a few of those that DSFF mentioned. And let's also not forget that a couple of drivers that are eligible for the All-Star Race in May will likely not compete, including Trevor Bayne (barring a miracle or some kind of unforeseen injury to one of Roush's two curently eligible drivers) and possibly Mark Martin (I don't know if that's on his schedule at MWR) may not compete in the All-Star Race at Charlotte and Bayne may not compete in the Bud Shootout either if the Wood Brothers don't compete, which they're not likely to. In other words, the depth of the field in NASCAR's top series, based on DSFF's predictions, may be even worse that I thought it was entering 2012. 1102. Cooper posted: 02.11.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why is Robby 29th? He isn't even worthy of being 29th and he may not make it the whole year. VERY wishful thinking. " Because A) There's only 33 full time drivers B) I'm bias The depth of the series is at an all-time low. Probably the worst since hell I can't even remember that far back. 1103. cjs3872 posted: 02.11.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I think there may only be about 27 or 28 full-time drivers that probably won't do any start-and-parks at the most. Like I mentioned, of the 33 drivers that DSFF listed, three to five of them may wind up either being without a ride or doing at least some start-and-parks later on in the year, including Casey Mears, Josh Wise, Joe Nemechek, and possibly even Dave Blaney. And Robby Gordon won't run every race, even if his team does, and a number of those will also be start-and-parks. That would leave just 28 full-time teams trying to complete the races among those listed, meaning that there may well be be double-digit start-and-parks in some races this year, especially at places like Pocono and other races where the series are split. I fully expect some Nationwide and Truck Series drivers to fill out the fields at some of these races and just run a few laps and park it. We may see races with as few as 30-34 cars out of 43 trying to run the distance later in the 2012 season. Like I said, the Cup series is in bigger trouble than even I suspected, at least at the start of the season. Having Childress run the #33 car for the first five races, and hopefully Roush will run the #6 car with Stenhouse more to increase the number of quality cars, because I really only see about 18-22 full-time quality cars on the circuit this year, tops. 1104. Red posted: 02.11.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At this point, it looks like there will be 26 competitive, full-time teams. Last year we had 29 teams, and this year we've lost the #4, #6, #33, and #83, and gained the #15. It appears there will be eight full-time backmarker teams who actually run the distance, including the #13, #32, #34, #36, #38, #51, #83, #93. And there will be about six full-time S&P teams, including the #23, #30, #37, #49, #87, #98. In select races we'll see a few extra competitive cars, with the #10 (SHR version), #21, and #33. Realistically, this will be the thinnest Cup field since 1992, when there were only 27 or 28 legitimate teams. Luckily, the future looks a bit brighter, as Roush's #6 will probably return in 2013, SHR's #10 will become full-time, Penske may bring back the #77, and perhaps BK Racing will inject enough money into the #83 and #93 to make those teams competitive. It's hard to believe (and sad) that in less than five years the Cup Series has lost over TWENTY competitve teams. Remember, in 2007, there were 49 legit cars showing up every week, with no S&P's, no field fillers. 1105. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2012 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, that wasn't my list. Maybe I'll come up with one sometime, but that wasn't mine. I'm fully expecting a hangover year for Carl. When it comes to contenders for the Cup, as in actual "have a real chance not involving a Hail Mary at Homestead" Cup championship contenders, I have noticed 5 trends: 1) Jimmie Johnson will be in the hunt. I know he wasn't last year, but for the SEVEN PREVIOUS seasons, he had a serious chance at the Cup, taking home the last 5 of those 7. He and his team have been the only team immune to the Year After Syndrome for the past 14 seasons. Ever since Jeff Gordon backed up his absolutely incredible '97 season with an even more incredible '98 season, only Johnson has put together more than one true contending season in a row. 2) Everyone involved in the title hunt not named Jimmie Johnson the previous season will not be in the title hunt by the time Homestead rolls around. Half the time, they aren't even close. And this is not limited to runner-ups. Even in the cha$e era, the contenders one year are not the contenders the next year. And both Carl and Tony have shown the Year After Effect in both of their previous title runs (Tony in '03 and '06, Carl in '06 and '09). Yes, the champ is not immune to this unless he is Jimmie Johnson. This goes for driver and team. For the hell of it, there is a list most notable championship hangovers over the last 30 years at the bottom. 3) Contenders usually had either a strong ending to the previous season, (Gordon '00, Sterling and Smoke '01, JJ and Gordon '03, Carl '10) a breakout season the previous year (June '03, Denny '05), a combo of both (Kenseth '02, June '03, Carl and Biff '04, Carl '07 Denny '09) or a rebirth in the previous or current season after a disappointing season(s) (Gordon and Mark '04, Smoke '05, Kenseth, Harvick, and June '06, Gordon '07, Mark '09, Harvick '10) 4) Kyle Busch is never a factor in the end, and his meltdowns seem to actually be getting worse every year. 5) Drivers in comas won't be contenders. This eliminates June and Newman. By this system, this leaves us with the following contenders: Jimmie Johnson (the guy who is there 90% of the time no matter what happened in the previous year), Jeff Gordon (rebirth in '11 AND rebounding from disappointing '08-'10 seasons), Brad K (breakout season in '11), Denny (due for a rebound after '11), and Kasey Kahne (strong end to '11, now with powerhouse HMS). In fact, that is my predicted Top 5. I still say Gordon takes it all (cjs just screamed at his computer when he read that), followed by JJ, Brad, Denny, and Kasey. Earnhardt '81: Yeah, Osterlund bailed on him, the cars radically changed, and Stacy gutted the team after buying it in one of the dumbest moves by any owner ever. But still, to go winless and end the season driving for Richard Childress, who as late as August '81 was still a no budget independant running his Martinsville car at Talladega is a steep dropoff. Allison '84: Again, team issues. DiGard's horrible management system finally caught up to them after a decade of shady business. Had 2 early wins, but struggled after Memorial Day win. Rusty Wallace '90: Shades of DiGard, Blue Max finally breaks through with a dramatic championship over the top dog of NASCAR at the time, Earnhardt (much like Bobby finally getting over the DW hump) only to come completely apart the next year. Much like Bobby in '84, he still got two wins, including the World 600, but the team crumbled. Also, they were both sponsored by Miller. Wow, I never put the similarities together until now. cjs, we must discuss this. Earnhardt '91: Yeah he won the championship, but he still went from a 9 win season and an epic points battle with Mark to a 4 win season and a title in a season where NOBODY could put together anything resembling a sustained title run other than Rudd leading to one of the lamest points battles ever (lowlighted by Dale blowing an engine at Charlotte and GAINING points on Ricky). With that said, the on track racing in '91 was some of the best ever. Earnhardt '92: A complete non factor all year. Even in his Bud Moore years he ran up front in the first halves of races before ultimately blowing up. 1 win (with NASCAR officials looking the other way while he sped in the pits to stop Ford's winning streak), 12th in points, and very few laps led. Terry '97: 6th in points isn't horrible, and he only had one less win than his championship season. But it was a distant 6th (over 500 points back of teammate Gordon) and dropped from 21 Top 5s to 8. The start of a career slide that never stopped and is still actually going as he is whoring out is PCP in barely funded cars. Bobby '01: In 2000 absolutely nothing could go wrong. He completed all but NINE laps and was totally immune to bad luck. The next year he had 10 less top 5s and had SIX DNFs. Why couldn't he have had that season in '00? F**k! Gordon '02: Like Dale in '91, only he could just manage a 4th in a season where nobody wanted the Winston Cup. Barely edged his rookie teammate in points and had the same amount of wins. Although, as it would turn out, that teammate was pretty damn good. Kenseth '04: Shades of B Lab in '01. A year after being practically immune to bad luck (he had a tire tread come completely off on a winding road course just 50 feet in front of the pit entrance) nothing could go right. Lowlighted by his self inflicted crash at Dover trying to pit that we are guaranteed to see replays of at least 3 times every weekend NASCAR visits Dover. KuBu '05: At least everyone else managed not to get suspended by their own teams. Smoke '06: Had to be included. Yeah he won 5 times, but he totally removed his head from his shoulders and cost himself a cha$e spot with his inexcusable behavior coupled with a shoulder injury and mid summer slump. Missed the chance to put pressure on the 48 again (the same thing that caused them to crumble badly the year before) during a looney cha$e and possibly having a major effect on NASCAR's history. Damn you Tony. 1106. Eric posted: 02.12.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, You forgot to mention that JTG-Daugherty Racing wants to have a 2nd team for 2013, but it a question mark right now. Right now they are just starting to building their own cars instead of depending on MWR. That is a step in the right direction for them if their bodies are not off from an aerodynamic standpoint. That means they are going to struggle big time, but they had enough sense that MWR isn't a good organization to be aligned with. The other problem is Bobby is a type of driver they really need sense I feel he hasn't been the same driver since he won his championship. 1107. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I became a fan of Dale Earnhardt Sr. after the 1993 Coco-cola 600 matter of fact." One of my favorite victories by him. A year after NASCAR looking the other way while he won that race by speeding in the pits to appease Chevy since Ford had won every race to that point, they make up for it by calling him for speeding, then giving him a complete bullshit rough driving one lap penalty for supposedly spinning Greg Sacks to get a caution to make up for the speeding penalty ONLY HE NEVER TOUCHED HIM!!! For all the times you could have penalized Dale for rough driving and you pick that?!? Didn't matter. A madder than hell Earnhardt made his lap up, caught a caution, and blew by everyone in the end in the first time that race ended at night. BTW. My pick for comeback driver of the year? Dale Earnhardt. That's right, Big E. Already TWO books have been released centered on people's struggles to get by after his death. One looks at June's 2001 season by his publicist at the time, and for some reason Darrell Waltrip released one about HIS emotional response to losing Dale. Can you say "money grab"? I guess they saw Mikey's shameless exploitation of Dale's passing and the money it made him and decided to follow suit. Enough is enough. I was the biggest Earnhardt fan there was and defend his place in NASCAR history (at the top in my opinion) to this day. But can we quit rehashing his death over and over? He is becoming like JFK. His death is more famous than his life. I don't want that to happen. So yeah, we may have "Junior Nation" and "Danicamania", but I'm guessing neither will have TWO books centered around them released this year. "DSFF you went there i didn't. So eh yeah. BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I know it is complete tabloid BS, but "Hulk Hogan caught in bed with Brutus The Barber Beefcake" is one of the most hilarious headlines ever. 1108. LordLowe posted: 02.12.2012 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of wrestling do any of you here miss the attitude era 1109. cjs3872 posted: 02.12.2012 - 1:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes DSFF, I just checked and that wasn't your list, but Cooper's instead. Sory about that. And the situations regarding the decline of Bobby Allison with DiGard Racing in 1984 and that of the Blue Max Racing team six years later was ironic, considering both teams had the same sponsor and won the same race, while frustrating an all-time great that never won the 600 at the same time. (Bobby Allison won the 1984 World 600 after Cale Yarborough blew with 19 laps left while leading, while Rusty beat Bill Elliott, who also never won the 600, in 1990.) Frankly, I see only 18-22 competitive cars running full-time. Obviously you have the four Hendrick cars and the two Stewart-Haas cars, as well as the three Roush cars and three Childress cars. That makes twelve. Add to that the two Penske cars and you've got 14. The three Joe Gibbs cars make 17, and I thinbk Michael Waltrip's only competitve car will be the #15 of Clint Bowyer, bringing the total of competitve cars up to 18. I don't really think Ganassi's going to be competitve, especially with his current drivers, so I don't count them, nor is Furniture Row Racing's #78 car. Kurt Busch is not going to be competitve in the #51 car, except for the plate tracks, and the FRM cars are back markers, and the JTG-Daugherty team (47-Bobby Labonte) is also uncompetitive, and I think the Richard Petty Motorsports (9-Ambrose, 43-Almirola) is going to take a major step, or possibly even two steps backwards in 2012, especially with Aric Almirola, who hasn't really shown that he can be competitve, as one of the drivers. A major problem with the competition is that there is only one Dodge team (Penske), one Toyota that runs up front often (Gibbs), and only one competitve Ford team (Roush). And if Ganassi gets more competitve in 2012 and if Michael Waltrip's two other cars (55-Martin and others and 56-Truex, Jr.) are more competitve than I think they'll be, that would bring the number of competitve cars up to 22 in my view, but I think the number of truly competitve full-time cars will be less than 20 in 2012 for the first time in many years. 1110. Spen posted: 02.12.2012 - 3:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's my list for this year, based on who we're fairly certain will be running for points: 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Kasey Kahne 3. Kevin Harvick 4. Tony Stewart 5. Jeff Gordon 6. Matt Kenseth 7. Brad Keselowski 8. Carl Edwards 9. Ryan Newman 10. Denny Hamlin 11. Jeff Burton 12. Kyle Busch 13. Paul Menard 14. A.J. Allmendinger 15. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 16. Greg Biffle 17. Clint Bowyer 18. Juan Pablo Montoya 19. Marcos Ambrose 20. Martin Truex, Jr. 21. Jamie McMurray 22. Joey Logano 23. Regan Smith 24. Aric Almirola 25. Kurt Busch 26. Bobby Labonte 27. David Gilliland 28. David Reutimann 29. David Ragan 30. Dave Blaney 31. Casey Mears 32. J.J. Yeley (full-time for Jay Robinson.) 33. David Stremme 34. Michael McDowall 35. Joe Nemechek Depending on how he does in the races he runs, Mark could be as high as 32nd. Landon Cassill is also a question mark, as we don't know what he'll be driving next year. I don't expect Robby will run enough races to beat Nemecheck in points. According to Larry, Josh Wise isn't going to run the full season. Burton's placement is probably wishful thinking, but I'm basing it on his past seasons with new crew cheifs, and an assumption of overall improvement at RCR. With Gibbs and Roush likely going down, someone has to pick up the slack, and along with Hendrick, they seem like the likeliest suspects. And I trust his ability to run 8th-15th on a weekly basis. Logano might end up higher than I have him, but I'm expecting the pressure to get the better of him this year. Same for Biffle. I believe this will be the year Biffle loses his ride. 1111. cjs3872 posted: 02.12.2012 - 9:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I don't think Biffle loses his ride in 2012, especially with two more years left on his contract with Roush. The only way I see that happening is if Roush can't find enough sponsorship to bring the #6 car back full-time in 2013. After all, he doesn't have near enough sponsorship for the #17 car in 2012, though he has said that he will run that car blank if he has to. Greg Biffle's only fault is that he drives the car too hard, and that gets him into a lot of trouble, but Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. has the exact same problem, which suits the less powerful Nationwide cars, but will not transfer to the Cup cars. As for your listing of drivers, how can you possibly put David Reutimann ahead of David Ragan, when Ragan is running the full season, while Reutimann will only be running 26 races? That would put Ragan ahead of Reutimann by default, despite the sorry team that FRM is. But with only 27 to 29 cars and drivers slated to run the full season without S&P'ing, finishing in the top 25 will be no real accomplishment, and even being in the top 20 won't be much to write home about. But I do think Biffle will have a comeback year, if he doesn't wreck driving too hard. That is assuming that the Roush cars are competitve. But with Roush being the only really competitve Ford team in 2012 with Richard Petty's team taking some serious steps back in 2012 with Marcos Ambrose (who did surprisingly well on the ovals last year) and an uncompetitve driver like Aric Almirola on the roster, Ford may be in for a fall, because Roush might be in the same situation that Penske is in, essentially being a lone wolf for a manufacturer, and losing one of his cars due to lack of sponsorship. But I do think that Biffle will be closer to the oter Roush drivers in 2012. Remember that Roush's team wouldn't have been as strong in late 2010 and 2011 without the assistance they got in 2010 from Kasey Kahne and Kenny Francis, who basically showed them they were using the wrong setups. 1112. Bronco posted: 02.12.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Met Carl Edwards here in Canada yesterday (Perhaps Cooper was also at this event?). Great guy, very personable fan friendly just like you see on TV. I'd like to point out that he signed autographs well past the allotted 1 hour timeslot rather than just leaving, and he took photographs and signed multiple items per person even though the event organizers restricted it to one item per person. Listening to him during the fan Q&A, its easy to tell how important racing is to him, and he also offered his take on the Kurt Busch incident, what the last lap of the 500 was like last year, and a John Cena story. If you haven't met Carl yet, you definitely should. Also there was Robert Yates who talked about racing was like in the older days, and how the creativity of racing is missing these days with all teams getting their parts from a few superteams. Ron Fellows was there too talking to some fans about Road America last year. 1113. Anonymous posted: 02.12.2012 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is there an official entry list for the Daytona 500 yet? 1114. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.12.2012 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Robby Gordon won't run every race, even if his team does, and a number of those will also be start-and-parks." That is what i was trying to get at. So i see no reason to put him on any list when he isn't going to be around for every race. Now if he'd run every race, then i'd agree with Cooper (he'd be above 30th easy). "Speaking of wrestling do any of you here miss the attitude era" Vince McMahon has no touch on reality. But the Attitude ear wasn't perfect. But that was better then what we have now, BY A WIDE MARGIN. "By this system, this leaves us with the following contenders: Jimmie Johnson (the guy who is there 90% of the time no matter what happened in the previous year), Jeff Gordon (rebirth in '11 AND rebounding from disappointing '08-'10 seasons), Brad K (breakout season in '11), Denny (due for a rebound after '11), and Kasey Kahne (strong end to '11, now with powerhouse HMS). In fact, that is my predicted Top 5. I still say Gordon takes it all (cjs just screamed at his computer when he read that), followed by JJ, Brad, Denny, and Kasey." Honorable mentions: Kevin Harvick: (there every year) Matt Kenseth: (steady, very steady) Carl Edwards: (he'll fall, but i hope to far) Kyle Busch: (he'll make the Chase, but fall on his face like usually) Dale Jr: (i hope he keeps his head on straight) AJA: (set the world on fire and make Chase but not win it) Tony Stewert: (Make the Chase but not win it) BTW DSFF i agree with your 5 guys, i just added the other 7 Chase guys. 1115. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Speaking of wrestling do any of you here miss the attitude era" Yes! That is the only time I have regularly kept up with wrestling aside from when I was a little kid watching the Ultimate Warrior. Since whenever it was that Stone Cold's career pretty much ended and the disasterous WCW merger and they let HHH and Cena be the faces of the organization (zzzzzzz), I pretty much quit watching it for good. In the last 7 or 8 years, the only time I have watched wrestling has been about 3 or 4 times when a buddy of mine throws his yearly WrestleMania party. But since WrestleMania and the Spring Martinsville race are almost always on the same day, I don't even go to that half the time. " Honorable mentions: Kevin Harvick: (there every year)" I should have at least mentioned him. He is The Enigma. As I spoke of earlier, he could run off with the Cup championship, or he could finish 20th in points and I would not be surprised either way. It will be interesting to see how it turns out since he pretty much had his entire team fired by forcing his hand. On one hand that will motivate him, but on the other hand, his team has to be walking on pins and needles wondering if one bad performance will cause him to get pissed and have them fired like the ones before them. But I don't have him in my Top 5. Why? Because like Cooper mentioned, everything is pointing towards him having yet another Top 5 year and quite possibly a championship run. Therefore I don't think it will happen. Nothing in his career has ever gone the way you would think it would go. See post #1065 1116. Spen posted: 02.12.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "how can you possibly put David Reutimann ahead of David Ragan, when Ragan is running the full season, while Reutimann will only be running 26 races?" From how I read the situation, Reutimann will drive with the #10's owner points for 26 races, and try to qualify on time in the #35 for the other ten. If I misunderstood that, then yes, he'll be lower. As for Biffle, I don't think Roush will be content with keeping Stenhouse in Nationwide for another two years after this one, and if sponsorship doesn't open up for the #6, Biffle would be the odd man out. Particularly factoring in his age (no driver born between 1960 and 1969 has yet won a race after turning 42), and given that he just went winless during one of Roush's good years, it makes me think that he's got to be on the hot seat. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look good to me. 1117. LordLowe posted: 02.12.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my view Stone Cold Steve Austin is the Dale Earnhardt of wrestling 1118. LordLowe posted: 02.12.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At 1995 subaru I Agree that Vince McMahon has lost his mind and needs to step down but he isn't the only one that needs to be removed from power His daughter Stephanie, and his son in law HHH need to leave the positions of power they and most of Vince Mcmahon's Minions all need to be fired if things are to improve in the WWE because a lot of those people are causing more harm then good right now 1119. cjs3872 posted: 02.12.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, Reutimann has already said that he's not going to be in the Daytona 500, so he'll probably just run those 26 races. Now he might serve as a drive coach for Danica Patrick when Patrick's racing in the Cup series, which other veteran drivers have done before. And as for Biffle and Stenhouse, it all depends on how Biffle fares in 2012, and whether or not enough sponsorship can be found on the #17 car to where Roush can then focus on sponsoring the #6 car for 2013. If Biffle fares better compared to his teammates, Roush may have no choice but to farm Stenhouse to the Wood Brothers' #21 car in 2013, if he wants to keep him in the fold and move him up to at least a part-time Cup schedule if sponsorship isn't found to bring the #6 car back in 2013. What I'm saying is that if Biffle remains around 15th, but the performance of his teammates falls off, which I think it will this year to some degree, that it might be enough for Biffle to keep his job. Personally, Biffle and Stenhouse are pretty much the same driver, Stenhouse is just much younger, but both drive too hard, which has gotten Biffle into plenty of trouble in his Cup career, and will get Stenhouse into the same trouble. They can get away with it in the Nationwide cars, which require driving as hard as Biffle and Stenhouse do, but you can't do that in the Cup cars, not just because of the horsepower, but also because of the longer races. You have to pace yourself and be conservative at times, and neither Biffle or Stenhouse seem to show the capability of being conservative when it's needed. They just like to push all the time, and you just can't do that in the Cup cars. 1120. Bronco posted: 02.12.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is there an official entry list for the Daytona 500 yet?" That usually doesn't come out until the Monday after the Bud Shootout has been run. Surprised that everyone thinks Matt Kenseth will do well next year, I don't recall a partially sponsored car ever finishing in the top 10 in points in the history of the chase. I see him having about a 15th place season, similar to 2009 but without the wins, and only a few flashes of being competitive. 1121. Anonymous posted: 02.12.2012 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That usually doesn't come out until the Monday after the Bud Shootout has been run.' That doesn't really make sense! Qualifying is generally the Sunday after the Bud Shootout. Why would they qualify before the entry list is released? 1122. Scott B posted: 02.13.2012 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The drivers I expect to be on the "hot seat" this season are Joey Logano and Martin Truex Jr (depending on whether Clint Bowyer outperforms him by a substantial margin). Biffle will be under some pressure because Roush has a driver surplus, but I still believe Jack wants him back and will bring back the #6 to open up an extra seat in 2013. The Kurt Busch/Phoenix racing combination will be the most unpredictable and interesting one to watch. The actual equipment will be decent (Hendrick Cars.com is a sponsor for some races, nudge nudge wink wink), but the pit stops will have to be much better that they were last season when Cassill was in the #51. 1123. Eric posted: 02.13.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really don't think Truex is going to be one the hot seat. I really don't think Clint is going to outperform Truex by a substantial margin. MWR is not a great organization to put it mildly and the engines by Toyota are the worst out the manufacturers in cup. Joey is the driver on the hot seat. I really see Kurt Busch, Regan Smith,or Trevor Bayne being the favorites to take over the ride next year. I mentioned Trevor Bayne because I really don't see Jack keeping him after this year because if Jack doesn't find sponsorship for the 6, Jack is going give Stenhouse the 21 car. I don't have faith in Jack finding sponsorship for the 6 car for 2013. 1124. Eric posted: 02.13.2012 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mentioned Regan Smith because his contract is up after this year. I really don't see Kurt Busch acting up this year because he know his cup future is on the line and is the reason I mentioned him for possibly taking over for Joey. Kurt basically has a chance for this ride since he will be racing for his brother this year for some of the Nationwide races. 1125. Sean posted: 02.13.2012 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I get the Hendrick sponsorships of the #51 Finch Cup and #88 JR Motorsports Nationwide cars. Those are effectively Hendrick cars (and that's the ONE way Kurt Busch might luck out in all this, if Hendrick decides to make the #51 another Stewart-Haas). But am I the only one a little disturbed that Hendrick is sponsoring an RCR car in the Daytona 500? I speak as someone who strongly dislikes both Hendrick and Childress (and well, pretty much all the owners who are capable of winning races on a regular basis...) but is Hendrick trying to bleed Childress dry like Roush bled Yates dry a few years ago (not that I feel sorry for Yates either - I hated the way the Ernie Irvan and Ricky Rudd things went down...)? 1126. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.13.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Phil "Lefty" Mickelson won his 40th PGA Tour event. I was going to mention this a while ago but i forgot. Where does Lefty rank on the all-time greats list? Be interested to get peoples take on this (for those who watch golf) To me he is between 16th and 20th on my list. If he comletes the carrer Grand Slam (winning the US Open, his nemisis and the Open Championship, something he doesn't finish well at very often) he'd be higher up. 1127. Scott B posted: 02.13.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #1125 Sean, Yes, the idea of Hendrick's name on a Childress car does seem odd to me, too. So does the deal for the #10 ride to be shared between Stewart-Haas and Tommy Baldwin drivers, with different engines and chassis depending on whose turn it is. There's also still some other potential owner points deals rumored that would be a little wacky. It's going to be that kind of season, with everyone trying to do more with less. If the #51 does well and contends for wins with Hendrick's name on it, you can be sure there will be complaints that he's working around the 4 car limit. 1128. 18fan posted: 02.13.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reports are that the #55 car of Mark Martin will get the #32 FAS Lane car's owner points for the 500 with Terry Labonte driving the FAS Lane car and utilizing his champion's provisional. Then, FAS Lane would receive the owner points of Roush's #6 car for Phoenix-Fontana. 1129. Red posted: 02.13.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Where does Lefty rank on the all-time greats list?" I would actually put him around 8th-10th all-time. His 40 wins are obviously impressive, and that includes four majors. However, I give him an extra bump because he's played in the most competitive era in golf history. The fields are deeper than they were 20 or 50 years ago, plus he's had to deal with Tiger, which has surely lowered his win total. 1130. Scott B posted: 02.13.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roush and another Ford team working a three-way deal with a Toyota team. That there is just not normal. ;) 1131. cjs3872 posted: 02.13.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, Roush wouldn't be working this deal if Mark Martin wasn't involved. Remember that Mark was a standout performer in Roush's #6 car for 19 years, and not only is Roush part of the deal, but so is his #6 car. This may be Roush's way to pay Martin back for all the service and great races he gave Roush over those 19 years. Also, let's not forget that one of Roush's current drivers, reigning Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne, drove for Michael Waltrip's Nationwide team before funding ran out and Bayne was let go, only to be picked up by Roush late in 2010. Add to that the fact that Waltrip drove for the Wood Brothers, a current Roush farm team, for three years and won the 1996 All-Star Race for them, and there are many different layers to this story than we might think. And as for the #32 team's angle in this, remember that Frank Stoddard was a successful crew chief for Jeff Burton, when Burton was so successful for Roush from 1998-2001. Could Roush be planning for Bayne to drive the #32 car in the All-Star Race if funding isn't there for the Wood Brothers and Roush doesn't enter the #6 car for him for that event, or possibly even put Bayne in that car for more races when he's not driving the #21 car or Nationwide Series races this year? (He's slated to run only a partial schedule in each series.) Roush has said that he wants to keep Bayne in the fold, and possibly teaming up with ex-Burtin crew chief Frank Stoddard may be a way to do that for the races that Bayne doesn't drive the #21 car in, and the races that ex-HMS teammates Terry Labonte and Ken Schrader aren't slated to drive the #32 car in. As for the questions about three-time Masters champion Phil Mickelson (and don't be surprised if he becomes a four-time Masters champion this year, which would equal Tiger), and where he ranks all-time, I would rank him from about 10th-15th, at best. Of course, at the top of the food chain among golfers is Jack Nicklaus, who's in his own league. Then you have Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods, Ben Hogan, Gary Player, Sam Snead, Gene Sarazen, Arnold Palmer, Tom Watson, Byron Nelson, Lee Trevino, and Billy Casper. I rank Mickelson above only a couple of those players, at the most. But if Mickelson becomes a four-time Masters champion, I may change my tune about him. A fourth Masters title would, in my opinion, would be as important to his legacy, if not more important, that a U.S. Open win. After all, Sam Snead won more golf tournaments than anyone else in history, but he never won the U.S. Open, so I think a fourth Masters title would be as important to his legacy as a U.S. Open win, if not more important. 1132. Scott B posted: 02.14.2012 - 10:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thought that Roush might ask the #32 to use Bayne or Stenhouse in a few races to give them seat time did cross my mind. Stodard is already using multiple drivers, so it wouldn't be a big deal, especially if the car remains solidly in the top-35. There are a few open races in the MWR car being shared by Mikey and Mark Martin as well, but actually having Roush development drivers in a Toyota even on a temporary "on-loan" basis is more of a stretch. It is also possible that Jack Roush was just being a nice guy, but when I read about a deal like this, I always expect each party to get something in return for what they give up. Maybe even something as simple as drafting help at the plate tracks. 1133. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2012 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, I wasn't saying that Roush was going to run one of his development drivers in a Toyota. I was saying that he might allow Stoddard to run Bayne in the #32 in the All-Star Race, as well as other races that he's not currently slated to run in the #21 car, just to gain experience, though he might not do that if that eventually means that Bayne might wind up in a Chevrolet (Ganassi?) or Toyota (Gibbs?) in 2013. After all, rumor has it that Bayne was a candidate for Penske's #22 car, but after talking with Roush, that idea was shot down. The Toyota angle where Bayne is concerned is the fact that he drove for Michael Waltrip before being let go late in 2010 due to lack of sponsorship, the same problem that Bayne is having with Roush now. That's why I think you might see Bayne getting released from Roush later this year if things don't improve on that front. Trust me, if Bayne drove for someone like Richard Petty, he'd be in the #22 car this year, instead of Allmendinger, who's in that car, due in no small part to Petty, who recommended that Penske sign Allmendinger. I know that if I was in Roush's shoes, if Bayne would have told me that he had goten an offer from Penske, I would have told him to go for it. This kind of thing dogged drivers like Dave Marcis, Neil Bonnett and Ron Bouchard. After two great years for Nord Krauskopf in 1975-'76, Marcis was released and replaced by Bonnett. Marcis then drove for Penske in 1977. He had driven for Penske some in 1973, but when Penske decided to sell his team to Rod Osterlund after the 1977 season, Marcis went with the sale, but after Osterlund released him after the 1978 season, Marcis decided to do his own thing. As for Bonnett, Krauskopf sold his team in 1977 to Jim Stacy, for whom Bonnett won twice in 1977. But Stacy's team was a victim of the Dodge Magnum's problems in '78, as well as money troubles, and he sold his team to Rod Osterlund to end the '78 season. Stacy and Bonnett returned together in 1979, but when the Wod Brothers ride opened up in April, Stacy granted Bonnett his release, and Bonnett's career finally gained a foothold. He won nine times for the Wood Brothers from 1979-'82, and drove for Junior Johnson from 1984-'86 and RahMoc twice, winning several times for each of those teams, doing so in both stints with RahMoc. But on the other hand, Ron Bouchard was bitten by the loyalty he showed to Jack Beebe's Race Hill Farms team, with which he won the Talladega 500 and the Rookie of the Year honors in 1981. He got some offers from higher-echelon teams, but turned them down, preferring to stay loyal to Beebe's team, but that eventually killed his career in the mid-80s. He was out of the sport by 1988. So it will be interesting to see what happens with Bayne. Will his loyalty to Roush kill his career, as it did with Ron Bouchard, or will better opportunities open up if he has to be released by Roush due to lack of sponsorship, which I think may happen later this year. 1134. Scott B posted: 02.14.2012 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are quite a few contracts expiring after the 2012 season, and as David Reutimann found out, even drivers with contracts may be moving. So, I think there will be some OK (not great) possibilities open to Bayne if he's released. He needs to have a good showing on the intermediate tracks this year. I just threw that mention of the open races in the MWR ride (6 dates, I believe) out there as a longshot. It's much more likely we'll see one of the usual suspect free agent veterans in that role. 1135. Scott B posted: 02.14.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^^^ I should have said, one of the usual veterans or Travis Pastrana as the MWR fill-in driver. But Pastrana is nowhere near ready for Cup IMHO, so hopefully we won't see him in that seat. 1136. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You mean Scott B, races such as the Nationwide race at Texas last fall, where he won the Nationwide race (though he ran his usual methodical race until late cautions caught him up to the leaders, which is also how he caught up in the Nationwide race at Charlotte a few weeks earlier, when he was third), or the fall Cup race at Charlotte, where he ran in the top ten and had a legitimate chance to win if things fell his way before his team ran him out of fuel about two-thirds of the way through that race. The Wood Brothers hadn't had a car that good on an intermediate track since Ricky Rudd drove for them in the middle part of the last decade. Bayne's problem in the Cup races is that, even if he runs good, his pit crew will probably screw it up because of how far behind the curb the Woods' pit crew is compared to the rest of the teams, and the same is true regarding Kurt Busch in the #51 car this coming season. And remember that Bayne may not run more than 25 races in the Cup and Nationwide series combined if he can't find sponsorship. Due to the pit crew of the #21 car, a top 15-20 finish would be good for that team in any of the non-RP races, because of how far that could get them behind, no matter how good the car is. 1137. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know next to nothing about golf and never watch it, so I can't give my unique take on things toowards golf. Here is basically everything I know about golf (not involving Carl Spackler or Happy Gilmore): Ben Hogan dominated for a while, Palmer dominated for a while while mixing tea and lemonade, Nicklaus dominated for a while, then not much happened, then Tiger arrived. Then Tiger had to run for his life while his wife tried to beat him with a golf club and he has done nothing since. Also, at some point some guy epically choked in the British Open lowlighted by him standing in some water with no shoes or socks on which they show all the time and it never stops being funny. 1138. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.14.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, at some point some guy epically choked in the British Open lowlighted by him standing in some water with no shoes or socks on which they show all the time and it never stops being funny." Jean Van DeVal, not even the Cubs of 2003, Yankess of 2004 can hold a chandle to him. Good grief he hit the self-destructe button, he SMASH IT WITH A MALET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Paul Lwarie (Who? Look him up) won it, Justin Leonard (again look him up) also came 2nd. 1139. 12345Dude posted: 02.14.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LINMANIA strikes again! Did anyone watch the Knicks game? 1140. Spen posted: 02.15.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "actually having Roush development drivers in a Toyota even on a temporary "on-loan" basis is more of a stretch." Back in 2002, Biffle was loaned out to Andy Petree and Petty Enterprises, so it's not totally unheard of, just extremely rare. Cjs, thanks for correcting me about Reutimann. 1141. 18fan posted: 02.15.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann will be driving in the Daytona 500 in the #93 BK Racing car as a teammate to Landon Cassill. Travis Kvapil will take over the #93 car beginning at Phoenix. 1142. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Spen, what a difference just a couple of days makes. As 18fan said in post #1141, Reutimann will now be in the Daytona 500, in the #93 car of BK Racing, which is locked in, since they're using Red Bull's points from the #4 car last year. Landon Cassill is also locked in with the #83 car's points from last year, as he'll be driving the #83 car from BK Racing. However, this points swapping from one team to another is getting out of hand. First of all, there are too many teams locked in to begin with, though that probably won't matter as the 2012 season progresses, as there are fewer full-time teams than there are exempt spots (about 28-32 full-time teams and 35 exempt spots in the Cup series). Like I've said, there shouldn't be more than 30 locked in spots, and 25 is a perfect number of locked in spots to me. Frankly, I think NASCAR should just do away with the exemption rule and go back to the pre-2005 format, with the fastest 36 or 38 getting in on time, and the rest of the field being set by provisionals, with the top 20 or 25 getting an unlimited number, as long as they stay in the top 20 or 25 in points. Also, races like the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, and Brickyard 400 should have larger fields, because of the status of the events. I think 46 cars would be good for the 600 and 50 cars would be good for the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 at Indy. The larger fields really wouldn't have an effect on the racing, since there are about 8-12 cars that would just park it after a few laps, which would knock the number of cars on the track back down to about 38-42 anyway. 1143. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2012 - 5:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks SmokeFan. I couldn't think of his name even though I hear it every year when the British Open is about to be played when they show him in that creek which makes me laugh every time. I keep wanting to say Jean Claude Van Damme lol. I don't watch hardly any NBA outside of the playoffs, but I enjoy watching highlights of Linsanity. Seems like a nice kid. 1144. 10andJoe posted: 02.15.2012 - 6:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But on the other hand, Ron Bouchard was bitten by the loyalty he showed to Jack Beebe's Race Hill Farms team, with which he won the Talladega 500 and the Rookie of the Year honors in 1981. He got some offers from higher-echelon teams, but turned them down, preferring to stay loyal to Beebe's team, but that eventually killed his career in the mid-80s. He was out of the sport by 1988." The same thing happened to Ward Burton. Heck, I seem to remember reading that he'd gotten a job offer from RCR at one point and he -turned it down- to stay with Bill Davis...and (one Daytona 500 aside) we see where that got him. I agree that the lock-in rule should be done away with; it's been an utter failure. The entire -point- of the Top 35 Rule was to help teams get sponsors: they could say "we WILL be in the race every week" to a potential sponsor who would then sign on the dotted line when before they might have balked at the possibility of a DNQ, was the reasoning. Instead, we now have -Jeff Gordon- running multiple sponsors because nobody wants to cough up the cash for a full season sponsorship...oi. It's been tried, it didn't work, go back to the fastest 38, four provisionals from owner points, then either a PCP or the next fastest car for 43rd (as opposed to a fifth provisional the way it was back then). Yes, you might have an unforseen problem in qualifying, but... ...well, that's what second round qualifying was for! (And on that note: is it just me or have all the "cost-cutting" measures NASCAR's tried just made things more expensive? They did away with second round qualifying so teams had to put more empha$i$ on being absolutely sure they got one/two good laps as there was no longer a safety net...they enacted a one-engine-per-weekend rule so teams had to put more empha$i$ on getting relaibility AND power out of the same engine...they shifted Happy Hour to before the support series race instead of after so teams had to put more empha$i$ on their Busch/Truck programs and/or $tarted programs from scratch to get the extra track time... 1145. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2012 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, there's another reason the top-35 rule for the Cup series was enacted. In the fall race at Atlanta in 2004, which was the first year of the Chase (another disaster), a number of teams entered extra cars to protect their cars in the Chase. Roush, Penske, and and couple of other teams, if I remember right, entered an extra car to protect their Chase car. An end result of that was that those extra cars ended up knocking out fully sponsored full-time cars, at least one of which was in the top 25 in points. To try to keep something like that from happening again, the top-35 rule was enacted to keep the full-time teams from being knocked out by teams running extra cars, or other part-time cars. But I do agree with some of NASCAR's cost-cutting measures that were enacted a decade ago, such as the elimination of second round qualifying, which had simply become a waste of time, and the one engine rule, which eliminated qualifying specials. Those were great ideas that NASCAR came up with, which were, quite frankly were overdue in retrospect. Now the moving of the final pracitce from after the support races to before the support races was done simply to boost the support series. But those changes made it so that it gave a big advantage to those that ran the support races, since it amounted to a free 200-300 mile test for the following day's Cup race. 1146. Anonymous posted: 02.15.2012 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad Brian Vickers didn't get the #93 ride. I was really looking forward to him making an ass out of himself again. 1147. 10andJoe posted: 02.15.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Timmy Hill will drive the No. 37 in a collaborative venture between Rick Ware's team and Max Q, starting at either California or Texas and then running the rest of the year for ROTY. (Mike Wallace will drive the 37 at Daytona.) And thus does another extremely promising career bite the dust as a result of Kenny Irwin, Jr. Syndrome. 1148. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just read some really head scratching quotes from Kelley Earnhardt- (fill in whatever her last name is now, of the things she inherited from her Dad the inability to maintain a marraige is one of them). You may remember her as the driving force behind the incredibly ugly breakup of Dale Jr and DEI, a death blow to both parties professionally. I just want to know this: Does she really expect us to believe any of it? 'That's not what my dad wanted,' she said. 'It's not about winning; it's about not compromising who you are. That's something we don't do. We are who we are and we don't compromise that." NOT ABOUT WINNING?!?!?!?!? Big E? For him, it was ONLY about winning, about being the best. No matter the cost. Just ask people like Darrell Waltrip, Terry Labonte or Bill Elliott. Hell, ASK KELLEY!!! She had a very distant relationship with him despite the fact she was his own daughter and spent most of her childhood living in his house. He was usually gone trying to *gasp* WIN somewhere. His marraige to her and Dale Jr's mother fell apart because he put racing ahead of his own kids. 'Our dad would be proud.' Of what???? Like Kelley, he had a very cold relationship with Dale Jr. It wasn't until he started winning in the Busch Series that they became close. Dale Jr says his favorite moment with his Dad was after he won The Winston in 2000. That was the happiest he had ever been around June. Why? Because he had WON a huge race. Had he never become a WINNING racer, they may have never become close. Then, when asked about her brother: 'There's a lot of talk about him not winning,' Kelley said. 'In all honesty, that's not what my dad wanted. He wanted us to be happy; he wanted us to be true to ourselves.' Winning isn't what Dale wanted? Really? What a crock. Look, I am in no way saying Dale didn't love his kids. I know he loved them a lot more than he loved winning in NASCAR. But he sure didn't prioritize his life that way. And to act like it was any different is crazy. There was a lot about Dale Earnhardt to admire. His parenting (outside of Taylor) was not one of them. He only became close to Dale Jr (and by proxy Kelley) once he started winning in NASCAR. So Kelley, don't insult us. Your Dad was a special person. But far from perfect. And you suffered as much as anyone from his faults. So don't play stupid with us. 1149. Spen posted: 02.15.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hill's career wasn't going to go anywhere. Hopefully, he can keep his reputation of being easy on equiptment, and make a career out of driving 35th place cars. If he's extremely fortunate, his career path could resemble Regan Smith's. 1150. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.16.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Will Bill Elliott make the 2012 Daytona 500 in the second Nemecheck car? Perhaps the better question is, will anyone use the past champions provisional for the 500? 1151. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2012 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Jarrett88fan, Terry Labonte will need the past champion's provisional in the #32 car, and he would have first shot over Bill Elliott since he won the title in 1996, which is more recent than 1988, the year of Elliott's title. 1152. Scott B posted: 02.16.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The qualifying speeds this year might give Awesome Bill a flashback to when he was in his prime. 1153. Spen posted: 02.16.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Kevin freakin' Conway could manage a 22nd place qualifying run in that car at Talladega, Bill should have no problem making it in on speed. The better question is, will he be running the full race? I sure hope so. I'd hate to see his career go down to S&P. Judging from the current entry list, I'd say Bayne, Bill, and either Nemechek or Waltrip should make it in on speed. Terry'll use his PCP. Blaney and Robby will probably race their way in. The Wallace brothers are both question marks. The way the #37 usually runs makes me think it won't have much of a shot even with Mike (remember, he missed the field with TRG three years ago), but he's still someone to think about on plate tracks. Kenny's with a start-up team, that might not have the necessary speed. McDowall will probably race his way in. Yeley's questionable. I don't have a good feeling about Stremme or Raines' chances. And if Richardson makes it, I'll eat my hat. No Norm this year, though? Pity. I'd love to see him make the field, just once. Probably won't ever happen, but it still would be fun. 1154. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RIP Gary Carter. One of the best catchers ever. I vaguely remember the end of his career as a young child. He had one of those action figures that I had and still have (along with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Rickey Henderson, Marino, Elway, etc). That is some damn good company to be in. God speed. 1155. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to clarify something I said in that last post of mine. Terry Labonte would need the champion's provisional to make the field only because the #32's points were given to Mark Martin's #55 Michael Waltrip Racing car to ensure his participation in the Daytona 500, since neither Labonte or Elliott is likely to qualify fast enough, or get one of the two open spots in the qualifying race that they're in. If not for the pointds transfer from the #32 to the #55 for this year's Daytona 500, Labonte would have been locked in due to owner points and Elliott, the 1988 NASCAR champion, would be guaranteed the past champion's provisional, as he would be the only past champion not already locked into the field. But because the #32 car's points were acquired by Michael Waltrip for this race, and this race only to get Martin into the Daytona 500, Elliott will have to either time trial or race his way into the Daytona 500, as Labonte woud get the champion's provisional ahead of Elliott,. because he won the championship more recently. For the next four races, the #55 car wil be locked in because they'll be getting the points from, believe it or not, Roush's #6 car, the very car that Mark Martin drove for 19 years and won 35 races plus the 1999 Bud Shootout and two All-Star Races (XIV-1998, XXI-2005), not to mention finishing second in the championship standings four times, ironically in equally spaced four-year intervals (1990, '94, '98, 2002), and finished third three other times, also in equally spaced four-year intervals (1989, '93, '97). And as DSFF said, we lost a sports legend today as Gary Carter, who I'd say is one of the top five catchers in all my years watching baseball (maybe one of the top three), died today at 57. A sad day in the sporting world for not one, but two countries, as Carter was, and probably still is a sports icon in Canada, where his career both started and ended with the Montreal Expos. Carter was what all sporting fans wish their athletes they watch to be, no mater the sport. He was not just a champion on the field (whether or not he won a championship, which he did with the New York Mets in 1986), but one off it, as well. Sports needs more people like Gary Carter, and he will be dearly and deeply missed. 1156. Talon64 posted: 02.16.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For the next four races, the #55 car wil be locked in because they'll be getting the points from, believe it or not, Roush's #6 car, the very car that Mark Martin drove for 19 years and won 35 races plus the 1999 Bud Shootout and two All-Star Races (XIV-1998, XXI-2005), not to mention finishing second in the championship standings four times, ironically in equally spaced four-year intervals (1990, '94, '98, 2002), and finished third three other times, also in equally spaced four-year intervals (1989, '93, '97)." Actually, it's the #32 FAS Lane team that'll get the #6's owners points for the 4 races after Daytona, and the #55 will keep using the #32's 2011 points. You can't blame anyone for getting confused with all this point swapping, though. I forgot that the #32 wasn't locked in and thought the #97 would be. 1157. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, the #32 doesn't need anyone else's points for the first five races, since they were in the top 35 at the end of last season. That means that their own points are good enough to get them into the first five races. It is from the #6 team that the #55 will get the owners points to get them into the second through fifth races of the season, which is basically Jack Roush's way of thanking Mark Martin for those 19 years of service, even though Martin might be in those five races himself (I'm not sure if he's slated to drive in each of the first five races). The only reason the #32 isn't locked into the Daytona 500 due to it's top 35 standing from last year was because Michael Waltrip swung a deal with Jack Roush to get Mark Martin #55 car into the first five races of the season. But because that #6 car is going to run in the Daytona 500 with Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., Roush neds the points to gurante Stenhouse a starting position in the race, and because Terry Labonte has a championship provisional he can fall back on, and since Labonte was hired by FAS Lane Racing, it's the #32's points that are being used to get Martin into the Daytona 500, but it will be the #6's points that will get the #5 in the next four races. The one driver that might wind up geting the shaft from all this is Trevor Bayne, last year's Daytona 500 winner, who is not locked into the field for this year's Daytona 500. He and the Wood Brothers will have to qualify on time, or by finishing in one of the top two positions among drivers not already qualified for the Daytona 500 in one of the qualifying races. You would have thought that Roush might try to get his own development driver into the Daytona 500, rather than assist a Toyota team, even if it is with the man who built Roush Racing into what it is today through his 19 years of service there. 1158. 18fan posted: 02.16.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought the #32 team was getting the #6 car's points after Daytona and the #55 car would use the #32 team's points for all of the first five. No matter how it happens, one thing we can agree on is that the whole owner points swapping has gotten ridiculous. 1159. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, you and Talon64 might be right about who's getting who's points for the second through the fifth races, but that wouldn't make sense, because the #32 was in the top 35 at the end of last season. But you are right about the fact that the owners points swapping has gotten out of hand. Now I don't see anything wrong with teams from the same organization swapping points(like the 2 and 77 a few years ago, or if Tony Stewart had just given his points to the 10 car). Frankly, I think they should get rid of the top 35 rule to prevent this from happening again and go back to the pre-2005 rules of 36 or 38 cars qualifying on speed and the rest of the field being set by provisionals, with the top 25 getting an unlimited number of provisionals. To be honest, I saw nothing wrong with that rule at all. But I still think a better optiopn aoukd be to expand the field for the biggest events, just like what was done in the 1960s. Back then, 50 cars started the Daytona 500. That would enable teams like Ganassi and Pesnke, for example, to add extra cars to allow drivers from other forms of the sport to run the Daytona 500 or Brickyard 400. Basically, the Daytona 500 has become just another NASCAR race, though it is undeniably the biggest. What made races like the Daytona 500 or the Indianapolis 500 so unique in the '60s, '70s, and early to mid '80s was the diversity in the field. For example, from 1976 through 1983, the Daytona 500 featured drivers such as Tom Sneva, Johnny Rutherford, Tim Richmond (before he made the switch to NASCAR), and Salt Walther among the Indy Car drivers, as well as David Hobbs, Al Holbert, Claude Ballot-Lena, Elliott Forbes-Robinson, and Bill and Don Whittington represent the sports car/road racing set. And let's not forget that the 1974 Daytona 500 featured no fewer than nine drivers that had previously started the Indianapolis 500 at least once, and that doesn't even include Tony Bettenhausen, Jr., who ran the full NASCAR circuit seven years before he ever drove in the Indianapolis 500. I think NASCAR and the Daytona International Speedway need to do something to entice drivers from other series to compete in the Daytona 500, and maybe NASCAR and IMS should try to get drivers from other disciplines of the sport to try to run the Brickyard 400, as well. And the best way to do that, in my opinion, is to expand the field for the biggest races in the sport, such as the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600 (though that would be extremely difficult, considering that all forms of the sport are racing that weekend), and the Brickyard 400 at Indianapolis (who wouldn't want to race there?). I think the fields for the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 should be expanded to 50 cars, and the field for the Coca-Cola 600 should be expanded to 46 cars (50 may be too many for a 1.5 mile track). 1160. 18fan posted: 02.17.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, there is no problem with a multi-car team swapping the points around within the organization. It's all of these "arrangements" that send points between organizations that has caused the situation to get ridiculous. 1161. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.17.2012 - 4:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs: Daytona has pit stalls for up to 66 cars. Indy and Charlotte are already maxed out at 43. 1162. Spen posted: 02.17.2012 - 10:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: "but that wouldn't make sense, because the #32 was in the top 35 at the end of last season." They were, but MWR bought their points for the #55. Much the same way as SHR bought the #36's for Danica, but unlike TBR, Stottard got the points of the #6 to fall back on, after Daytona at any rate. But for Daytona, they have zero owner points, and are considered a 'new' team. Hence, the need for Terry. Dave Blaney's the one who really gets screwed in the whole point-swaping mess. After legitimately racing his way into the top-35 last year, he gets rewarded by having to qualify on time again this year. So long as he makes Daytona, that shouldn't be too problematic, though. 1163. cjs3872 posted: 02.17.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember, NicoRosbergFan, that the Daytona 500 once had a 68-car field (in 1960), and I understand that they can start as many as 80 cars for the 24-Hour race. As for the pit stall isue, there so so many cars that start-and-park these days that it wouldn't be an issue. And having 43 pit stalls for the Brickyard 400 proves to me that they can start more than 33 for the Indianapolis 500, which they can do safely. I've been calling for a field of at least 36 cars at Indy for years, if not up to 40. And in a standard NASCAR race of 43 cars, only 36-38 of them even last long enough to make pit stops, anyway, so they can start four or five more in the big races, especially in there are a number of cars (possibly up to 10 in some races this year) that don't intend to stay in the race long enough to warrant a pit stop. And MWR bought the point from the #32 for this year's Daytona 500 because the #6 car is going to run the Daytona 500. But the #6 car isn't going to run after the Daytona 500, so the #55 is going to use the points from the #6 car for the next four races, which as I've said, is Jack Roush's way of paying Mark Martin for his 19 years of service. The #32 car can get into the next four races from it's own owner points from last year. So why would Frank Stoddard need to but the #6's owner points for the next four races, since his own points are good enough to get them into the next four races. Also, there are 49 cars entered for the Daytona 500, meaning that six won't qualify. Among those entered in one-shot deals are Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. (Roush Racing's #6 car), Robert Richardson, Jr. (R3 Motorsports' #23 car), Michael Waltrip (Hillman Racing's #40 car), Kenny Wallace (RAB RAcing's #09 car), and Bill Elliott (NemCo Motorsports' #97 car). Other part-time teams entered for the Daytona 500 include Trevor Bayne (Wood Brothers' #21 car), Elliott Sadler (Richard Childress Racing's #33 car), and possibly Robby Gordon's #7 car. And I believe there are other non full-time teams entered for this race. 1164. cjs3872 posted: 02.17.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Chad Knaus is at it again. It seems that a part of Jimmie Johnson's Daytona 500 car has ben confiscated. This time, it's the "C" post that goes from the roof of the car to the seat that was taken. Some things just never change. And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nothing that Jimmie Johnson ever does, except for maybe his 2006 Daytona 500 win, which came without Knaus since he had been booted from the speedway grounds, will ever come without questions regarding whether what Johnson had done was within the rules. That's why it's doubtful that I could ever put Johnson in with the other seven titans of the sport (R. Petty, Allison, Gordon, Earnhardt, Yarborough, Waltrip, and Pearson). Say what you want about Pearson and Earnhardt. Aside from a off-occasion that Pearson was caught with an oversized restrictor plate in 1971 between his qualifying race victory and the Daytona 500 that year, there was never a hint of cheating regarding Pearson and Earnhardt. In fact, I don't think there was ever an instance of cheating in any car that Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was ever involved with as a driver. And the only reason I don't put Yarborough in the same category, as far as not cheating, was his eight years with Junior Johnson, who was one of the biggest cheaters in the history of the sport. But no other team Yarborough was involved with when he drove was ever suspected of cheating, nor was Pearson, other than that incident in 1971 that I know of. As long as Knaus is his crew chief, nothing Johnson ever does can be considered on the sanme level as the other titans of the sport, because there will always be questions about the legality of Johnson's cars. Though accusations of cheating has always been a part of Hendrick Motorsports, because their first two crew chiefs, Harry Hyde and Gary Nelson were always up to things that weren't in the spirit of the rules, and Jeff Hammond and Ray Evernham were also fudging around the rules, as is Alan Gustafson to a point, though not as bad as the others I've mentioned. 1165. Eric posted: 02.17.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope that Nascar is not going to give Chad a 4 or a 6 race suspension. I am saying that because he got those two penalties in the past. He needs to be gone from 8 to 12 weeks at least since Chad is a well known cheater. 1166. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.17.2012 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, that didn't take long. Knaus has already cheated and will probably not be at the Daytona 500. Again. That will be the asterisk mark next to JJ's success as cjs said. Also they just wrecked in practice. Tony tired to push KuBu and wiped out both along with the two Penske cars. 1167. cjs3872 posted: 02.17.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, as you mentioned, Tony tried to push Kurt Busch (they're semi-teammates this year, as both have Hendrick equipment), and wiped out not only their own car, but also both Penske cars, both of the Busch brothers (Kyle was in that also), as well as three-time Daytona 500 winner Jeff Gordon, who was also involved. And by the way, while the #48 car failed inspection due to illegal modifications to the "C" post, the other three HMS (5, 24, 88) teams passed inspection with no problem at all, so the other HMS crew chiefs seem to be playing by the rules. However, it's already been announced that no further action will be taken until after the Daytona 500, so Chad Knaus and the other members of the #48 team that might also be penalized are, at this moment, still scheduled to be there for the Daytona 500. 1168. 10andJoe posted: 02.17.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not getting where the "#6 owners points to the #55" is coming from. Everything I've seen says that: -> the #55 has last year's owners' points from the #32, period. -> the #32 has no owners' points to fall back on for the Daytona 500, while the #6 is entered in the 500 and the 500 only. -> after Daytona, the #6's owner points will transfer to the #32.* The #6's owner points are in no way connected to the #55, now or later. (* I assume that, on paper, this will be done by having the #6 "become" the #32 a la the way the 09 changed to 51 mid-season last year.) 1169. cjs3872 posted: 02.17.2012 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, 10andJoe, then I'm corrected. By the way, SPEED has begun naming their "Great American Starting Grid" of what they say are the 43 greatest drivers in Daytona 500 history. Their one caveat is that all 35 drivers that have won the Daytona 500 are guaranteed a spot on their starting grid, so it will be interesting who the other right drivers are, three of whom have already been named. So, here are spots 43 through 35 on SPEED's list of the Great American Starting Grid: 35. Junior Johnson (1960 winner, two-time qualifying race winner, 1964-'65) 36. Ned Jarrett (seven starts, two top fives with a best of third in 1963) 37. Ward Burton (2002 winner, led most laps in 2001 race with 53) 38. Jamie McMurray (2010 winner) 39. Pete Hamilton (1970 winner, won qualifying race in 1971) 40. Ricky Rudd (29 starts, 1983 pole sitter, won qualifying race in 2000) 41. Trevor Bayne (201 winner, only rookie to ever win the race) 42. Derrike Cope (1990 winner, led 30 laps in the 1993 race, second-most on that day) 43. Dave Marcis (set record for starts with 33 and consecutive starts with 32) I'll give further updates in coming days and will post the entire starting grid when it's completed. But if Richard Petty's not on the top spot, there should be an investigation, and it could be argued that if Cale Yarborough isn't second behind Petty, there should be investigation there, as well, for reasons I'll mention, as I'm giving highlights on the Daytona 500 careers of all who make the list, as you can see here. 1170. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sterling better be somewhere in the Top 10 for this "Great American Starting Grid". I have him 6th for best drivers in the Daytona 500. 1171. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've run the stats 26 Races 2 Wins (Back to Back), 4 Top 5's, 10 Top 10's, 326 Laps Led. Okay maybe not 6th, but somewhere in the late single digits/early 10's. Plus he has a historic memory in this race (Fender Tug "02) Where do you guys think they'll rank Sterling? The season hasn't even started yet, and somehow Chad Knaus is caught cheating...Seriously? Why does Chad even come down to Daytona? He spends more time away from the track that actually at it. Chad should just extend his winter holidays every year and not even bother to go. Other than Michael Waltrip's Acme Rocket fuel experiment, Chad is the biggest Daytona 500 cheater. 1 practice. 1 Big Wreck. Somebody here should keep track of how many cars we wreck in this week. NASCAR is back baby. Wooooohhh. 1172. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I wouldn't excatly call Chad Knaus the biggest cheater in Daytona 500 history. Sure, he's been involved in cheating scandals before, but there have ben others, as well. One such incident occurred in 1968, involving the fuel cell in the car that Smokey Yunick brought to Daytona for Gordon Johncock to drive in the race that year. Then there was one of the most infamous incidents involving suspected cheating, which occurred 30 years ago when Bobby Allison's rear bumper came off on the fourth lap of the 1982 race. The official ruling there was that it was knocked off by Cale Yarborough, but many suspected that it was deliberately set to come off. (For the record, Allison's DiGard Racing team had been told to move the bumper the day before the race,and it was not bolted or welded on properly.) But several years earlier, DiGard Racing was one of those involved in the biggest cheating scandal in NASCAR history prior to the 1976 Daytona 500. In qualifications prior to the 1976 Daytona 500, four cars had their times disallowed, including the three fastest cars of A.J. Foyt, Darrell Waltrip, and Dave Marcis, along with 1975 NASCAR Rookie of the Year Bruce Hill. Foyt's Ellington Racing car, Waltrip's DiGard Racing car, as well as Hill's car were caught with extra fuel lines, which were suspected of holding nitrous oxide (Waltrip's team even admitted to this), while Marcis' K&K Insurance car was caught with a moveable air deflector, which was also against the rules, which put Ramo Stott and rookie Tery Ryan on the front row for that race. The irony of all this was that when they requalified, Foyt, Waltrip, and Marcis were STILL the three fastest, and all four made the race anyway, with Marcis and Waltrip regaining what they lost by winning their respective qualifying races. And by the way, many people believe that Foyt used nitrous oxide for many years, especially at Indy, where he always seemed to coax an extra 2-3 MPH out of his car in qualifying. However, that has never neen proven. 1173. Smiff_99 posted: 02.18.2012 - 7:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, I'll gladly assume control of the 'wrecked car tally' duties for the week. It'll give me something to do....however, is this JUST Cup or am I doing all the series? 1174. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99, do you think that you, or anyone else who wishes to count the number of wrecked cars, has a calculator that can count high enough, because it might be one of "those" SpeedWeeks, though I hope it isn't. After all, with the banning of driver-to-driver communiactions, even within the same teams, that this SpeedWeeks might be the most dangerous in history, and the number of wrecked cars in all series could exceed 100, and possibly exceed 50 in the Cup series alone. 1175. Sean posted: 02.18.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Remember, NicoRosbergFan, that the Daytona 500 once had a 68-car field (in 1960), and I understand that they can start as many as 80 cars for the 24-Hour race. As for the pit stall isue, there so so many cars that start-and-park these days that it wouldn't be an issue. And having 43 pit stalls for the Brickyard 400 proves to me that they can start more than 33 for the Indianapolis 500, which they can do safely. I've been calling for a field of at least 36 cars at Indy for years, if not up to 40. And in a standard NASCAR race of 43 cars, only 36-38 of them even last long enough to make pit stops, anyway, so they can start four or five more in the big races, especially in there are a number of cars (possibly up to 10 in some races this year) that don't intend to stay in the race long enough to warrant a pit stop." I'm confused. You were saying after Dan Wheldon's death in the Las Vegas IndyCar race that the large 34-car field was a reason for his crash, then compared it to a race at Talladega where 50 cars wrecked and there were some fatal/near-fatal injuries? Why would you possibly want to see more than 43 cars at Daytona and Talladega again? That's MORE than enough for there to be some gruesome wrecks. I understand your current argument that expanding the field to 50 would accommodate for some more competitive cars to compensate for the 7 or so start 'n' parkers a race, but I'd never want to see this because there is a possibility that the start 'n' park thing could be a fad and will end at some point. Then what? We attempt to start 50 cars again and have 30-car wrecks? No. Never never never. 50 at the Brickyard wouldn't bother me, nor would 50 at Pocono, Michigan, or California, but I REALLY don't want to see it on a plate track and I'm surprised you'd suggest this after what you said after Wheldon's death. As for the Indy 500, 33 has become the traditional starting field size (yes, I know about 1979 and 1997) just like 43 is the traditional field size for NASCAR. I'm okay with it. Neither series is drawing SO MANY cars at the moment. NASCAR usually draws 47 entries or so and doesn't even draw many more than that for high-profile races anymore (since the godawful top 35 rule). IndyCar is doing a little better of late and is now finally drawing 40 entries for Indy again, but I'm not sure I'd want to increase the size of the field and allow for really substandard ride-buyers. Yes, there's been a relatively high-profile DNQ the last three years (Tagliani in '09, then he took Junqueira's ride, Tracy in '10, and Hunter-Reay/Conway in '11, with Hunter-Reay taking Junqueira's ride AGAIN). I kind of see this as a good thing that increases credibility that at least there's one place in the world where there are no provisionals or automatic spots (except when teams arrange these shenanigans with other teams to take their spots, which should be outlawed...) Luckily, there are few really, really atrocious drivers in IndyCar now (E.J. Viso, the worst driver today, is considerably better than Milka Duno, Marty Roth, or Dr. Jack Miller from the past, but still, I don't want to see the next team to hire somebody like Milka to be rewarded with an easier road to entry...) "By the way, SPEED has begun naming their "Great American Starting Grid" of what they say are the 43 greatest drivers in Daytona 500 history. Their one caveat is that all 35 drivers that have won the Daytona 500 are guaranteed a spot on their starting grid, so it will be interesting who the other right drivers are, three of whom have already been named. So, here are spots 43 through 35 on SPEED's list of the Great American Starting Grid:" Wait, wait. Junior Johnson in 36th? That's already a travesty. The man is credited for discovering drafting! And since Michael Waltrip hasn't been announced yet, that means they put him HIGHER. Yes, I know MW had good runs in the 500 in the #30, #21, and #7 as well as the #15, but still, he was as lousy as Cope as an overall driver (many would say lousier). Johnson won the race (not in the best car) while Waltrip won the race twice (in the overwhelming best car). I can't even begin to imagine how they're trying to argue for MW over Junior Johnson (JUST the second win? Really?) Ned Jarrett and Ricky Rudd are also way better than anyone else listed there from 35-43 to overall drivers but at least they didn't have GREAT records at Daytona, so I can see why they're rather low. If they're going to put legends like Junior Johnson and Ned Jarrett so low on the list, I'm going to guess that the other non-winners will all be modern-era (since this is going to be overwhelmingly skewed towards modern drivers if they're even going to try to SUGGEST MW over Johnson) and probably for the most part restrictor-plate era (since most of the stars at Daytona actually won there until the fluky restrictor-plate era when literally ANYONE can win). For the other five non-winners: I'm betting it'll be Donnie Allison, Kurt Busch, Terry Labonte, Mark Martin, and Tony Stewart. This list already looks like it's going to spit on the pre-modern era, so I'd be shocked to see somebody like Bobby Isaac or Joe Weatherly making it (not that they'd necessarily deserve it, but if you're putting people like Waltrip, Cope, and Bayne on the list SOLELY because they won...) As for Donnie it will have nothing to do with stats (even though his career is decent enough there to argue it) and everything to do with "The Fight". The other four are simply because I suspect they're going to pick mostly modern drivers as much as possible. Kurt has three second place finishes, five top fives, and led the most laps in a race he DIDN'T finish top five. All while driving for Roush and Penske which are not known for their plate prowess. He should be there, even though everyone hates him and even though I hate the modern driver bias. Terry Labonte will be a harder sell for me because he never really fought for the win there (apart from '96) but three second place finishes will probably do it. Martin led the most laps twice and was surprisingly consistent for a Roush car, and Stewart has arguably fought for more wins than any current non-winner. At least I hope they leave Rusty off. He was ATROCIOUS on plate tracks. I'm sure I'll be cringing at 20 more drivers they place in front of Junior Johnson. I mean I LIKE Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan (a LOT) but I'm not sure I'd even put them over Johnson. I suspect they'll put somebody like Harvick or Junior ahead of both of them, which I also won't agree with, but alas... "Sterling better be somewhere in the Top 10 for this "Great American Starting Grid". I have him 6th for best drivers in the Daytona 500." In the plate era I think Earnhardt, Gordon, Irvan, Jarrett, Davey Allison, and Stewart were all better, though I wouldn't argue too much if they placed Marlin over Irvan, Davey, or Stewart. You can at least argue it on the basis of his wins, and at least he was highly competitive for wins in three different cars (#22, #4, and #40) as opposed to someone like Junior who only got it done in one car. 14th would be a good place for him maybe. "I'll give further updates in coming days and will post the entire starting grid when it's completed. But if Richard Petty's not on the top spot, there should be an investigation, and it could be argued that if Cale Yarborough isn't second behind Petty, there should be investigation there, as well, for reasons I'll mention, as I'm giving highlights on the Daytona 500 careers of all who make the list, as you can see here." I agree Petty should be first. I could see them arguing Earnhardt over Yarborough (and given the modern driver bias I actually expect it). He only won once, but my argument with these sort of things is they SHOULDN'T go strictly based on wins and should be based on how drivers actually ran in the race, rather than wins they may have lucked into. I guess I've always been more interested in reflecting dominance than consistency or even winning (since it's so easy to luck into a win, especially there...) I would have left Mikey, Cope, and Bayne off. We KNOW Earnhardt should have more than the one win (at least three), and I'm pretty sure he's second to Petty in Daytona laps led (500 and overall). Not to mention that in the plate era any of 15 or 20 cars could win depending on who gets lucky breaks, while in many of Petty's peak years there were only 5 possible winners. I would put Petty first, but I think I'd put Earnhardt over Yarborough in 2nd despite only the one win. Dominance should be reflected more than just winning, or else you get things like Michael Waltrip ranked over Junior Johnson... 1176. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, if you're going to do a list of the 43 greatest drivers in Daytona 500 history, and automatically qualify the 35 drivers that have won the race, what eight drivers would you complete the list of 43 with, because SPEED has, in my mind, already made some big errors. There's no way in my mind, based on record alone, much less on-track performance, that Dave Marcis and Ricky Rudd are among the eight greatest Daytona 500 drivers never to win the race, and I'm not completely sure that Ned Jarrett is, either. The eight greatest Daytona 500 drivers never to have won the race, four of whom are fully active, are: 1. Terry Labonte -3-time runner-up (1986, '90, '97), 1989 qualifying race winner at still-record speed, led most laps in 1996 race (44) 2. Kurt Busch (A) -3-time runner-up (2003, '05, '08), 2011 qualifying race winner, led most laps in 2007 race (95) 3. Tony Stewart (A) -led the most laps two consecutive years in 2004 (95 laps led) and 2005 (107 laps led), runner-up in 2004, 3-time qualifying race winner 4. Donnie Allison -led the most laps twice (1969-87 laps led and 1979-97 laps led), won the pole twice (1975, '77), won a qualifying race in 1980, and led over 240 laps in Daytona 500, which was once a record for most lap led not to have ever won the race. 5. Ken Schrader -won three consecutive pole positions (1988-'90), led most laps in 1989 (14, most led in a single race by someone who never won the race), finished in each of the top six positions at least once, but first, won two qualifying races (1987, '89) 6. Mark Martin (A) -led most laps in the 1997 race (52), finished in each of the top five positions except first at least once, 2010 pole sitter 7. Charlie Glotzbach -2-time runner-up (1969, '72), led 51 laps in 1969 race, won qualifying race in 1970, when he finished fourth 8. Bobby Isaac -1972 pole sitter and 3-time front row starter, runner-up in 1973, first 4-time qualifying race winner (1964, '69, '72, '74) As you can see, none of the three non-winners selected last night even makes my list of the top eight non-winners in Daytona 500 history, meaning that at least three of these eight drivers will not make the list of the 43 greatest drivers in Daytona 500 history. 1177. Sean posted: 02.18.2012 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, like I said I have some issues with Terry because he finished better than he usually ran, but I guess that was his entire career really... I'd agree that all eight of those drivers should be listed over Rudd and Marcis, and several of them should be listed over a few winners...though I'd still find it funny seeing Schrader on a list like that given how mediocre his entire career was. 1178. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That should have said 114 laps led in 1989 for Ken Schrader. And Sean, one reason they have Junior Johnson so low is the fact that he hardly ever finished the race, other than the one he won. I'll be interested where they put Fireball Roberts for that very reason. In six Daytona 500s, the race he won was the only one in which he was even running at the finish, and his only finish better than 20th. And how can you possibly say that Earnhardt was more dominating in the Daytona 500 than Cale Yarborough was? Earnhardt only won once (he should have won at least one, if not two others), only sat on the pole once, and couldn't find victory lane with a compass until the restrictor plate returned in 1988. Meanwhile, Yarborough won the race four times (1968, '77, '83-'84), finished second four times (1966, '74, '78, '82), and won the pole four times (1968, '70, '78, '84). In fact, a few years ago, in preparation for the 50th Daytona 500, I listed the top Daytona 500 drivers of all-time, and here's how I listed them then: 1. Richard Petty (7-time winner, 11 top-3 finishes) 2. Cale Yarborough (4-time winner, 4-time runner-up, 4-time pole sitter, 6-time qualifying race winner) 3. Bobby Allison (3-time winner, 3-time runner-up, finished 3rd twice, 1981 pole sitter, 5-time qualifying race winner) 4. Dale Earnhardt, Sr. (1998 winner, record 12 top 5 finishes, including a record 5 second place finishes, record 12 qualifying race wins) 5. Bill Elliott (2-time winner, 4-time pole sitter, led more than half the race in each of his wins, 4-time qualifying race winner, including being the only man to win qualifying races in three decades) 6. Jeff Gordon (3-time winner, 5-time qualifying race winner, 1999 pole sitter) 7. Dale Jarrett (3-time winner, including two in head-to-head battles with Dale Earnhardt, Sr., 3-time pole sitter) 8. Buddy Baker (1980 winner at the current race record speed, first 4-time pole sitter, ranks third on race's all-time laps led list, and one of only two drivers ever to lead 140 laps or more of the same Daytona 500 twice, and was a 3-time qualifying race winner) 9. Sterling Marlin (one of only three ever to win the race two years in a row, 1992 pole sitter, 3-time qualifying race winner) 10. Benny Parsons (1975 winner, only man ever to finish in the top three four consecutive years from 1975-'78 among eight top 5 finishes, 1982 pole sitter, 1987 qualifying race winner) 1179. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, the thing about guys like Terry Labonte and Benny Parsons was that they were conservative drivers who you could always count on to finish the race. In fact, if you wanted to see what a Daytona 500 won by Terry Labonte would have looked like, just look at last year's race, because Trevor Bayne drove a Terry Labonte-style race (and was assisted by Terry's younger brother Bobby in getting that win). And actually, Labonte was unfortunate not to have won two or three Daytona 500s. The 1997 race comes to mind. If Bill Elliott had kept Jeff Gordon pinned for a couple more seconds, Labonte would have won that race. And let's not forget how close Labonte came to winning the 1986 and 1990 races, as well, so Labonte had chances. In fact, as far back as 1980, he finished as high as sixth, was fourth in 1982 (he was running ahead of Cale Yarborough in second place when he ran out of fuel), was fifth in 1988, seventh in 1992, fourth in 1994, eighth in 1995, and seventh in 2000. Labonte's problem was that he was too conservative and wouldn't pull the trigger and make the move that a more aggressive driver would. 1180. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.18.2012 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1 practice. 1 Big Wreck. Somebody here should keep track of how many cars we wreck in this week. NASCAR is back baby. Wooooohhh." Well someone certainly likes a Demo Derby that PACK RACING produces. Goes to show, "fans" miss wrecks. 1181. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_99. Can we do both? Considering that the ARCA series is up in an half an hour, you're going to have to find a calculator immediately. 1180. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 02.18.12 - 2:34 pm I don't "miss wrecks". Did you not watch last year, the two car draft caused more wrecks than the Big Packs ever did... I just thought it would be a cool idea, to keep track considering the rule changes...Geesh. 1182. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.18.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ranking Earnhardt will be interesting. Yeah, he only has the one win, but he DOMINATED for so long there. His luck in the last 20 laps is hard to comprehend. Most people don't remember this but, but he was in good position late in his first 2 Daytona 500 ('79 and '80). He was with the leaders in '79 until bad pit strategy dropped them, and in 1980 he stalked Buddy Baker all race in perfect slingshot position until they left 3 lug nuts off on the last stop. He wasn't really a contender from '81-'85 due to unreliable equipment and Waddell's out of this world enfines despite his '84 runner up. But from there, he pretty much owned Speedweeks and the race itself. But the list of late race issues is beyond staggering. Fuel miscalculation ('86), bad last pit stop ('87), the worst stroke of bad luck ever ('90), wacky new pit rules ('91), DJs out of nowhere charge ('93), equalized tire '94), needing 2 more laps ('95), Gordon pulling an "Earnhardt" by taking the air off his spoiler '97), and a last lap crash running 3rd in 2001 (too soon? Its been 11 years). So how do you rank that? Yes, Richard Petty should be 1st going away, and Cale 2nd. But most top 5s and most laps led and owning the race for 15 years? I have him 3rd. 1183. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, come again about Earnhardt? He could very well have won the 1981 race if his team gambled like Richard Petty's team did. After all, he was among the leaders all day and was more formidable throughout the race than Petty was. And his car was the only one that caould handle Bobby Allison in the 1982 race. Unfortunately, his team ran him out of fuel, which led to his engine problems a few laps later. And he just sat behind Cale Yarborough in 1984 in those final laps and never tried to pass him to put himself into that valuable second position for that final lap slingshot. And his team did not miscalculate the fuel in 1986. They just couldn't go as far as Geoff Bodine could, and he (Bodine) pitted before anyone else did and still made it. One reason Earnhardt would not pass Bodine was fuel mileage, and they were still five laps off what Bodine did on that final run. The wacky pit rules of 1991 had no influence on Earnhardt not winning that year's race. In case you forgot, he led on the final restart. He just got too big a jump, and Ernie Irvan blew past him a lap after the restart and went on to victory. In 1993, Dale Jarrett simply had a better car, and Earnhardt knew it, even admitting so after the race. In 1994, Earnhardt was really a non-factor for most of the second half of the race, plus that race came down to fuel mileage, so a lot of drivers, Earnhardt included, had to play it conservative. In fact, Mark Martin and Lake Speed both ran out of fuel while running in the top five in the final three laps. As for 1995, he would have never gotten around Sterling Marlin no matter how many more laps he had. In fact, there would have been a better chance of Marlin breaking the draft, which he had already done twice in the second half of that race when Earnhardt was running second to him. Earnhardt's engine simply didn't have enough horsepower to do anything with Marlin that day, no matter how much better his car handled. Earnhardt could get a run on Marlin in the corners, but Marlin would actually pull away on the straightaway. In 1996, a major problem was all the Chevrolets that ran into trouble in the first 85 laps of the race. Aside from Earnhardt, the only other Chevrolet in contention was that of Ken Schrader, because all the rest of them had fallen by the wayside. And in both 1997 and '99, Jeff Gordon used Earnhardt's trick against him to put himself in position to make the winning pass. 1184. 18fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A bunch of leaders ran out of gas in the ARCA race coming off turn 4 to the checkered flag and Bobby Gerhart went by them to take yet another win at Daytona. 1185. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's Daytona! This track always leaves the best for last....At Daytona the White Flag marks the start of the race. It's never over until that checkered flag drops. Crazy. 1186. New 14&88 Fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't really pay much attention to the ARCA race despite having the tv on Speed the whole time, but man that finish was wild. Bobby Gerhart gets his 8th Daytona win, and though break for Brandon McRenynolds 1187. Smiff_99 posted: 02.18.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Total # of cars involved in altercations: By my count, around 15. Hard to tell in all that chaos just how many there were....I haven't watched any replays yet. But the counting has begun... But should I be doing 'cars involved' or 'cars knocked out via damage'? 1188. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's make it a challenge. Cars Involved. 1189. Bronco posted: 02.18.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going to predict that Jamie McMurray will win the Shootout - he has finished in the top 3 in the last 3 Shootouts, plus he's great at pack racing and has ECR horsepower. There will be 10 DNFS, due to either crashes or mechanical failures. One of them will claim Martin Truex. the polesitter. Carl Edwards will get his first Shootout top 5. 1190. myothercarisanM535i posted: 02.18.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just watched the finish to the ARCA race. That has to be one of the most lol-worthy finishes in racing that I can remember. 1191. Bronco posted: 02.18.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also wanted to predict that Jeff Gordon takes the pole tomorrow, with Newman starting 2nd. 1192. 18fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It took David Ragan 7 laps to cause his first crash of 2012. 1193. New 14&88 Fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just had the big one in the Bud Shootout Menard, Ragen, Micheal Waltrip and Kenseth among those taken out. Hopefully this isn't an oman for the rest of Speedweeks. 1194. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They just announced the drivers from 31st through 34th on the Greeat American Starting Grid. All of them won the Daytona 500 once. They are as follows: 31. Marvin Panch (1961 winner, finished fourth in 1964, led most laps in 1965 race with 80) 32. Tiny Lund (1963 winner, finished fourth in 1967) 33. Ryan Newman (2008 winner, third in 2006, led most laps in 2011 race with 37) 34. Matt Kenseth (2009 winner) Anyone else think it's kind of ironic that Panch and Lund are right together on this list, considering what happened in 1963? And David Ragan did it again, triggering a huge crash that involved himself, Paul Menard, Michael Waltrip, Matt Kenseth, Jeff Burton, Juan Montoya, and Kasey Kahne. Jeff Gordon also got a slight bit of damage, though how he escaped more serious damage is beyond me. 1195. Bronco posted: 02.18.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) McMurray is proving me right so far. 1196. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the best Bud Shootout in a loooongggg time. The Daytona 500 is going to be a classic. My pick Joseph Logano is looking decent. 1197. myothercarisanM535i posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now this is plate racing done right. I especially like the fact that, despite being in a pack, the drivers seem to be able to pick and choose their moves and be in control of the way they run - see Marcos Ambrose during the end of that last segment. 1198. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Missing it cause i'm at. Work. Hate i'm missing the racing, but I got a text about the broadcast booth. Glad I am missing that. 1199. 18fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Second wreck of the night, both happened in the middle of a corner. 1200. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch made one of the most incredible saves I've ever seen. Also somewhere Smiff_99 has a headache. Incredible racing, but very dangerous. I love it. Feels like the 2001 Aero package. The cars are punching huge holes in the air, and with the small spoilers there's no support for the handling. 1201. 18fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle's save was awesome. And less than 3 laps after the huge pack was broken up by Kyle's save, the pack was back together. 1202. myothercarisanM535i posted: 02.18.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought it was interesting to see the replay from Truex's car. It seemed that as soon as Logano moved high to make the pass, he lost a heap of speed which caused the rest of the pack to run up into the back of him. You also saw the same thing from Harvick's(?) on board - the sudden drop in speed was incredible. 1203. 18fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another big wreck and Jeff Gordon skids on his side and flips. 1204. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is that the first time Jeff Gordon flipped a car? I don't remember him ever flipping...Need some help on this one. It's definitely '01 plate package all over again. 1205. New 14&88 Fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone catch Kurt Busch's interview, really classy. Maybe getting fired by Penske was the wake up call he needed, we'll see. 1206. Cooper posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn Kyle. Impressive. 1207. New 14&88 Fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even if Kyle Busch isn't your favorite driver, you gotta give him credit for driving a hell of a race tonight! 1208. 10andJoe posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...and THAT, folks, is why if Kyle would manage to learn self-control that's a -hundreth- of the amount of raw cubic talent he has, there will be no stopping him. Wow. 1209. cjs3872 posted: 02.18.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, it is the first time that Gordon's flipped a stock car. Of course, he did that many times in his years driving sprint cars. And does anyone remember my prediction of possibly just 12 or 14 cars finishing the Daytona 500 late last year and earlier this year because of crashes? Well, tonight's race was exactly why I made that prediction. Of the 25 cars that started the race, all but three were involved in wrecks. And if NASCAR doesn't let the drivers communicate with each other, or make some other major change, that's exactly what's going to happen in eight days. On the other hand, Gordon officially joined the legends at Daytona, as just about all of them have flipped at Daytona. Richard Petty (1988 Daytona 500), Cale Yarborough (1983 Daytona 500 qualifying), A.J. Foyt (1978 Daytona 500), both of the Waltrip brothers (Darrell flipped in the 1991 Firecracker 400, Michael in the 2004 Daytona 500), Dale Earnhardt, Sr. and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Sr. in the 1997 Daytona 500, Jr. in the Busch, now Nationwide race in 1998), Dale Jarrett (1999 Daytona 500), Ryan Newman (2003 Daytona 500), Marvin Panch (1963, 10 days before the Daytona 500, albeit in a sports car, not a stock car). Every one of those drivers I mentioned that have flipped at Daytona also won the Daytona 500 at least once and flipped at Daytona, and now Gordon joins that group. That doesn't even include other racing stars that have flipped at Daytona, like Tony Stewart (2001 Daytona 500), Johnny Rutherford (1964 Daytona 500), Ken Schrader (1987 Firecracker 400), and Kyle Busch (2009 Firecracker 400) among others. 1210. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wholly cow! What we have is a hodgepodge clusterfudge of RP rules package that encompasses everything great and terrible about Daytona racing since 2001, best of both worlds (i.e. large pack/two car tandem) and the aggressive blocking/bump drafting in the corners/radiator over-heating from pushing another car, hitting cars in the banking transitions causing solo spin-outs, etc. Impressive win by Busch who wrecked with tow laps to go and came back, sparking and all to win. I'm beginning to believe when two cars are hooked up coming out of turn four on the last lap and slightly away from the rest of the field, the leader is a sitting duck due to the fact that the pusher can duck outside or fake outside and side-draft on the inside. The leader has two options: settle for second or wreck due to blocking. Overall, the Duels and 500 are likely to be wreckfests due to this pick-and choose , best of both worlds (pack/two car tandem) package and the aggressive blocking/bump drafting in the corners/radiator over-heating, etc. 1211. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.18.2012 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2012 Bud Shootout may go down as the 11 year review of restrictor-plate racing at Daytona. 1212. Spen posted: 02.19.2012 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: I'm a huge Bill fan, but even I can't give him fifth over Gordon or Jarrett. Three wins trumps two, and aside from '97, he hasn't really been a factor in the 500 since the plates were added. The qualifying record gives him a slight boost, but that's mostly thanks to great timing, as the record would be long broken if plates were never added. On your list of non-500 winners who deserve to make the cut, I'd put Paul Goldsmith on there before Kenny Schrader. From 61-69, there wasn't a 500 where he wasn't running top five, regardless of whether he finished there or not. Heck, in '64 he was the only driver who could come close to keeping up with Petty. On their list, Ward should be higher than Matt Kenseth. In addition to his 2002 win, Ward was quite dominant in '01 as well. Rain-shortened 2009 win aside, Matt has done diddly and squat in the 500. 1213. Bronco posted: 02.19.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Earnhardt, Sr. and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Sr. in the 1997 Daytona 500, Jr. in the Busch, now Nationwide race in 1998)," Dale Jr also had a nasty wreck in the Nationwide event of 2010 in the #88 car. 1214. Smiff_99 posted: 02.19.2012 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So far, the cars involved in wrecks tally (between practices, the ARCA race, and the Shootout) are uo to.....uh....44. That's right...44! And there's still a week's worth of practices, the Duels, the Truck race, the Nationwide race, and the 500..... Wow. I literally have a headache right now....(but that's mostly because of the alcohol) I had a few non-fan friends over tonight to watch the race....I coerced them into coming by creating a drinking game. 1 drink for every car involved in a wreck, 2 drinks for every yellow, 3 drinks for a red flag, 3 drinks for every time DW said something that made everyone in the room cringe, and 5 drinks if a car gets upside down. Needless to say, I polished off a fifth of Southern Comfort over the course of the 75 laps. NOT joking. lol BTW - I can't even begin to describe Kyle's performance tonight....even IF the banking played a role in him saving that car all those times.....he still wheeled the sh** out of that thing (not to mention his excellent timing of the winning pass). Plus, it seemed to me like the TRD motors (JGR's and Truex's) really performed tonight. 1215. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.19.2012 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3 drinks for everytime DW says something cringe worthy? My liver wouldn't last a month. My skin would be yellower than Dinger's paint scheme. 1216. cjs3872 posted: 02.19.2012 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, Elliott has ben a major factor in several Daytona 500s in the modern restrictor plate era. He was third in 1990 (and was the only driver during that entire race to even get alongside of Earnhardt until Earnhardt's tire blew on the last lap), was actually leading the 1992 race when Sterling Marlin and Ernie Irvan tried to make it three-wide on the 92nd lap, causing one of the first huge crashes in the history of the race (the first was back in 1975), dominated the mid-stages of the 1996 race, and finished fourth in 1997 and 2000, while he was fifth in 2001, and even ran with the leaders in 2002 and '03 for a time. And let's not forget that he's still, to this day, the only man ever to win qualifying races in three different decades. Also, one thing that, in my mind, works against Jeff Gordon is the fact that he has NEVER once led the most laps in a Daytona 500 (in fact, he's led the most laps in race history among those that have never led the most laps even once). Gordon seems a lot like David Pearson, in that he's actually much more potent in the July race than in the Daytona 500, despite the fact that he's won both races three times. And also remember that I made that list up some five years ago and have never updated it, though I wouldn't change the rankings. and one thing I do take into account is a driver's performence in the qualifying races. If I were to move Gordon ahead of Elliott in the future, it would be for that reason only. And also Spen, if you see my post when the 35th through 43rd places were mentioned, I did mention that Ward Burton led the most laps (53) in the 2001. As the rest of the Great American Grid is revealed, not only will I list the drivers, but also nuggets about their Daytona 500 careers. I may also give you my top 43 in race history when the list is completed, and there will be quite a few drivers not listed o SPEED's list that will be on mine, as drivers such as Ricky Rudd, Dave Marcis, Matt Kenseth, Derrike Cope, Pete Hamilton, and Trevor Bayne, for one reason or another, probably don't deserve to be on the list. I'll probably be continuing this conversation to the Bud Shootout page, and later the qualifying race and/or Daytona 500 page. 1217. Daniel posted: 05.21.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #7 Reed Sorenson & #46 Scott Speed Out using fastest 43: #32 T.J. Bell & #36 Geoffrey Bodine 1218. kup posted: 05.24.2012 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS - Universal Points System - after all races of 2011 Cup Points for a driver = His Distance /devided/ His Average Finish Dis/AvFn = Driver = KM-Miles / AV-FN 1473 = Carl Edwards = 13701 / 9,3 1195 = Kevin Harvick = 13743 / 11,5 1186 = Jimmie Johnson = 14111 / 11,9 1180 = Tony Stewart = 14163 / 12 1133 = Matt Kenseth = 13824 / 12,2 1072 = Jeff Gordon = 13936 / 13 1008 = Ryan Newman = 14114 / 14 1003 = Kyle Busch = 13042 / 13 971 = Dale Earnhardt, Jr. = 14082 / 14,5 958 = Kurt Busch = 13989 / 14,6 944 = Brad Keselowski = 13972 / 14,8 1219. Robert Nelson posted: 07.13.2012 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 points for the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series in 2011 sees a differnet Champion. Carl Edwards 319 Kyle Busch 272 Jeff Gordon 258 Jimmie Johnson 255 Tony Stewart 241 Matt Kenseth 238 Kevin Harvick 208 Brad Keselowski 195 Kasey Kahne 161 Kurt Busch 153 Ryan Newman 132 Clint Bowyer 132 Denny Hamlin 118 Marcos Ambrose 99 Dale Earnhardt Jnr. 88 David Ragan 87 Martin Truex Jnr. 77 Greg Biffle 66 Paul Menard 66 Joey Logano 61 Juan Pablo Montoya 52 Regan Smith 51 Mark Martin 46 AJ Allmendinger 45 Jeff Burton 41 Brian Vickers 37 Jamie McMurray 30 David Ruitimann 26 Bobby Labonte 18 David Gilliand 17 Dave Blaney 15 Michael Waltrip 2 The above table didn't have a Chase, this is what the Championship would look like with a Chase. Carl Edwards 114 Matt Kenseth 85 Jimmie Johnson 65 Brad Keselowski 64 Kevin Harvick 63 Jeff Gordon 54 Kyle Busch 38 Kurt Busch 36 Denny Hamlin 21 Ryan Newman 19 Marcos Ambrose 16 David Ragan 6 Now this table is what would happen if the regular season used NASCAR points and the Chase used F1 points. Tony Stewart 150 Carl Edwards 114 Matt Kenseth 85 Jimmie Johnson 65 Kevin Harvick 63 Brad Keselowski 55 Jeff Gordon 54 Kyle Busch 38 Kurt Busch 36 Dale Earnhardt Jnr. 27 Ryan Newman 19 Denny Hamlin 18 1220. RaceFanX posted: 10.21.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Geoff Bodine finishes 30th but none the less at the age of 62 finishes his final Sprint Cup start. The 18-time winner came back for what turned out to be his final four races in 2011 capping off a 575 race Cup career that included 100 top-5s, 190 top-10s and a Daytona 500 victory. Bodine's lengthy career also included a ton of success up North before he tried NASCAR, six Busch series wins, a Truck series exhibition victory, three IROC wins and the series' 1987 title and a Winston West win in his only true start in the series. 1221. DH101 posted: 11.29.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TJ Bell's only top 30 finish in the cup series...lol 1222. JasonB72 posted: 11.08.2014 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) A modern-day classic. 1223. 88&4Fan posted: 10.10.2015 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hard to believe this was less than four years ago. 1224. Damon posted: 11.14.2016 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This race is currently airing on NBCSN and will be replayed at 11 pm est. 1225. RaceFanX posted: 11.14.2016 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Tony Stewart talked to Jack Roush at the end of the rain delay, telling him that he should "tell your boy (Carl Edwards) out there to get up on the wheel. I'm coming." Smoke said the Cat in the Hat's response was a stare at Tony described as "he looked at me like I had three heads." 1226. RaceFanX posted: 11.14.2016 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Tony Stewart's race winning car from this race was retired after its victory. Today it is displayed at the NASCAR Hall of Fame. 1227. JSPorts posted: 11.14.2016 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What an incredible race. This was probably one of, if not the most exciting NASCAR races I have ever watched. I remember that hole getting punched in Tony's nose, and the team repairing it. He said something along the lines of "that's going to make it even more incredible when we go up and win this thing." It's fitting they're showing this race. One thing I can agree with Kevin Harvick about: Tony Stewart doesn't get enough credit. He is the 2nd best driver since 1999, no doubt about it. 1228. Damon posted: 11.15.2016 - 9:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even though Tony went on to win 5 more races after this race, I feel like this was his last truly great performance behind the wheel in Nascar in the way the Thrilla in Manilla boxing match was Muhammad Ali's last truly 'great' moment as a boxer despite winning more fights and a caputuring the heavyweight title for a then record third time afterwards. 1229. Maverick posted: 11.18.2016 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember how 2011 was the first year of the new points system? Well, I've decided to go back through this Chase to see how it would've turned out under the Latford system, and guys, check it out: Richmond Edwards 5010 Stewart 5000 (-10) Chicago Stewart 5190 Edwards 5175 (-15) Loudon Stewart 5380 Edwards 5317 (-63) Dover Edwards 5487 Stewart 5468 (-19) Kansas Edwards 5642 Stewart 5586 (-56) Charlotte Edwards 5812 Stewart 5733 (-79) Talladega Edwards 5947 Stewart 5889 (-58) Martinsville Edwards 6090 Stewart 6079 (-11) Texas Stewart 6274 Edwards 6265 (-9) Phoenix Stewart 6449 Edwards 6440 (-9) Homestead Stewart 6639 Edwards 6620 (-19) Just like reality, Stewart would win because of the huge amount of bonus points on winning. However, if the bonus points go away, it becomes a much different story. Why am I sharing this now? Flash forward from this classic battle, and the times are changing. Sunday's race, which will also be 5 years to the day of this one, will be Stewart's last in Cup competition; Edwards, his championship rival, will have a shot to capture his first Cup championship, trying to avenge this loss. Will Edwards get redemption? We will find out two days from now. 1230. Maverick19 posted: 11.24.2016 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2011 Sprint Cup Series Standings with 1983-2003 CART Points System 1. Carl Edwards- 308 2. Kyle Busch- 260 (-48) 3. Jimmie Johnson- 246 (-62) 4. Jeff Gordon- 235 (-73) 5. Matt Kenseth- 232 (-76) 6. Tony Stewart- 227 (-81) 7. Kevin Harvick- 206 (-102) 8. Brad Keselowski- 179 (-129) 9. Kasey Kahne- 164 (-144) 10. Kurt Busch- 159 (-149) 11. Ryan Newman- 146 (-162) 12. Clint Bowyer- 135 (-173) 13. Denny Hamlin- 127 (-181) 14. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.- 107 (-201) 15. Marcos Ambrose- 104 (-204) 16. David Ragan- 90 (-218) 17. Martin Truex, Jr.- 86 (-222) 18. Greg Biffle- 78 (-230) 19. Paul Menard- 72 (-236) 20. Joey Logano- 70 (-238) 21. A.J. Allmendinger- 66 (-242) 22. Mark Martin- 61 (-247) 23. Juan Pablo Montoya- 60 (-248) 24. Jeff Burton- 49 (-259) 25. Regan Smith- 48 (-260) 26. Brian Vickers- 47 (-261) 27. Jamie McMurray- 33 (-275) 28. David Reutimann- 27 (-281) 29. Trevor Bayne- 20 (-288) 30. David Gilliland- 18 (-291) 31. Bobby Labonte- 18 (-290) 32. Dave Blaney- 14 (-294) 33. Michael Waltrip- 4 (-304) 34. Ricky Stenhouse, Jr.- 2 (-306) 35. Casey Mears- 1 (-307) 36. Landon Cassill- 1 (-307) 37. Bill Elliott- 1 (-307) All other drivers scored no points. 1231. chevyfan98 posted: 01.11.2017 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards' retirement gives a whole new angle to this race, who would've known the two drivers fighting for the championship here would go out at the same time. 1232. kup posted: 11.16.2017 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS: universal points system. Driver's UPoints = Miles / Aver.Finish 2011 UPS _ Driver = Miles / AF 1473 _ Carl Edwards 13701 / 9.3 1195 _ Kevin Harvick 13743 / 11.5 1186 _ Jimmie Johnson 14111 / 11.9 1180 _ Tony Stewart 14163 / 12.0 & TOTAL: UPS! 63 years 1949-2011: Dale Earnhardt 8 in: '80, '86, '87, '89, '91, '93, '94, '95. Richard Petty 7 in: '63, '64, '67, '71, '72, '75, '79. Lee Petty 5 in: '50, '52, '54, '58, '59. Jeff Gordon 5 in: '98, '01, '04, '07, '09. David Pearson 4 in: '66, '68, '69, '76. Cale Yarborough 3 in: '74, '77, '78. Bobby Allison 3 in: '81, '82, '83. Mark Martin 3 in: '90, '97, '02. Buck Baker 2 in: '56, '57. Rex White 2 in: '60, '61. Terry Labonte 2 in: '84, '96. Carl Edwards 2 in: '08, '11. Bill Blair 1 in: '49. Fonty Flock 1 in: '51. Herb Thomas 1 in: '53. Tim Flock 1 in: '55. Joe Weatherly 1 in: '62. Ned Jarrett 1 in: '65. Bobby Isaac 1 in: '70. Benny Parsons 1 in: '73. Darrell Waltrip 1 in: '85. Bill Elliott 1 in: '88. Alan Kulwicki 1 in: '92. Dale Jarrett 1 in: '99. Bobby Labonte 1 in: '00. Matt Kenseth 1 in: '03. Tony Stewart 1 in: '05. Jimmie Johnson 1 in: '06. Kevin Harvick 1 in: '10. 1233. Anthony2 posted: 10.03.2019 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey would've finished 3rd in points if he made the 2011 playoffs. He was incredible in his last 10 races driving the red bull racing machine. 1234. Timothy_Eklund posted: 02.19.2020 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman finished every race of 2011. 1235. Yeet posted: 01.28.2021 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Marcos Ambrose almost joined Ryan Newman in finishing every race in the 2011 season, but engine troubles ended that chance in the very last race. 1236. Mile501 posted: 01.28.2021 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @1235 - Interesting find. How disappointing to come within 200 laps of finishing every race in a season. 1237. JSPorts posted: 01.28.2021 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ambrose would finish 35/36 races once more in his career, in his final season (2014.) His only DNF that year was another engine issue at Atlanta. 1238. Rich posted: 04.20.2021 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Allen Bestwick along with Andy Petree and Dale Jarrett were the commentators. Dr. Jerry Punch along with Vince Welch, Jamie Little and Dave Burns were the pit road reporters. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: