|| *Comments on the 2012 Goody's Fast Relief 500:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. 18fan posted: 03.31.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne wins his 24th career pole. Except for 2009, when he did not win a pole, he has now won multiple poles every year of his career and each of those years he won an even number of poles. 2. Mr X posted: 03.31.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only a 20% chance of rain for sunday, and sunny conditions! Having this race effected by rain would be devastating. 3. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 03.31.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope to see some tire wear for tomorrow afternoon's race. 4. DaleSrFanForever posted: 03.31.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh. It's killing me that I won't be at this race. 5. numbah24fan posted: 03.31.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) tony raines was actually fast enough to make the race, but his car failed post-qualifying inspection, so his time was disallowed, giving his spot to JJ Yeley. 6. numbah24fan posted: 03.31.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) tony raines was actually fast enough to make the race, but his car failed post-qualifying inspection, so his time was disallowed, giving his spot to JJ Yeley. 7. New 14&88 Fan posted: 03.31.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not much to say about the truck race, they should of named it the Harvick 250 8. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 03.31.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I suspect that we'll see our normal cast of Martinsville characters tomorrow. Kevin Harvick, Denny Hamlin and Jeff Gordon will all be tough to beat. 9. 18fan posted: 03.31.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch is due to win at Martinsville, he'll be strong, same with Jeff, Denny, Kevin, I expect Jimmie to come through the field and challenge for the lead at some point, Tony will contend and I think Brad Keselowski will be strong as well. As far as sleeper picks, I would go with the EGR cars because they seem to always run well at Martinsville and McMurray always runs well at Martinsville, even when he was with Roush when they sucked at Martinsville, Jaime always ran well. 10. hyperacti posted: 03.31.2012 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Expecting Hendrick domination. Johnson has usual excellence at Martinsville Gordon /had/ usual excellence; but won both practices this weekend Earnhardt is decent at Martinsville; but he's having a career year so far, 2+2. Kahne won the pole. 11. cjs3872 posted: 03.31.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about Kasey Kahne, and why I expect him to struggle at Martinsville has to do with the fact that he's passiv in traffic. If his crew can keep him up near the front, I tihnk he'll be alright, but if he gets mired back in traffic, he's essentially through. If you remember the 2010 Daytona 500, the only time he had a car capable of winning the Daytona 500, that when Kasey got near the front , he was as formidable as anyone, but when he got shuffled back late in the race, I knew he was through as a contender, because he's not the kind of driver that will make the necessary moves to get back up front. The same thing applies to him and short tracks. He's only had three really good short track races, including this race in 2005, when he was a surprising second. The other two really good short track races he had, his run at Bristol in the first Cup race after the track was reconfigured and his win at Richmond in 2005, he started up front and stayed there the entire race and never got back in traffic, except when he was lapping cars. If his crew can keep him up front, he's got a chance on Sunday, but if he get's in considerable traffic for any reason, he's through. The guys to watch are Kevin Harvick, the defendin champion of this race, who will be much more formidable than he was last year, Denny Hamlin, who with the sub-par qualifying effort of Jimmie Johnson (he qualified 22nd) becomes the odd-on favorite for his fifth Martinsville checkered flag, Jeff Gordon, who was a victim of his own practice success on Friday by going out at the worst possible time in qualifying, other than the earliest qualifiers (seriously, NASCAR needs to ditch this reverse qualifying procedure for Saturday morning/early afternoon qualifying because it actually works against those who the reverse qualifying procedure was suposed to help, and that's the fastest cars in the practice session that sets the qualifying order). By the way, this is about the fourth or fifth time that Gordon's been a victim of the reverse qualifying procedure on an early Saturday qualifying session, but I look for him not to stay in his ninth starting position for very long and be challenging Harvick and Hamlin all day, and eventualy bring Jimmie Johnson (who's still my pick to win) with him. I just hope it's not one of those "ride around the middle of the pack for 370 laps and get in front on pit strategy" kind of days, but with Harvick leading all but two laps in today's Truck Series race (which was kind of predictable with Kyle Busch not around to challenge him), passing may be next-to-impossible, which may lead to a "shot in the dark" winner. 12. Eric posted: 03.31.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hyperacti, Earnhardt isn't having a career year this year. 2004 was his career year. Dale Jr. at Martinsville shouldn't be called decent, but very good. In Dale's last 20 starts at Martinsville, he had 9 top 5's, 13 top 10's and led 865 laps. 13. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 03.31.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Been awhile since i posted on here but i felt this topic needed some discussion. http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-friends/index.html?intcmp=features#/v/1535936984001/why-wont-espn-air-christian-nascar-drivers-ad I'm a person of faith (to a point) but if this is a que to hate ESPN even more then go for it. ESPN= f**king rubbish. 14. LordLowe posted: 03.31.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF just go to the race and lie to your bosses by telling them that you will be in Miami tomorrow 15. Mr X posted: 03.31.2012 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, I'm not too concerned about a lack of passing tomorrow, frankly I think what happened in the truck race was almost destined to happen, Harvick had by far the best truck, and the most experience and talent of any driver in that entire field, and Ty Dillon decided that running second would be more fun then putting up a decent fight, either that or Harvick was just that much better. Frankly todays truck race is the same race we would've seen in the 2010 spring truck race at Martinsville. I seem to recall Kevin Harvick had some kind of pitroad troubles in that race but still led 187 of 250 laps and won. Also remember the Cup and Nationwide races at Phoenix in February of 2011. Kyle led every lap in the Nationwide race, and the Cup race was awesome. Outside of Dillon the only other truck with any hope of contending with the RCR trucks would've been maybe Kyle Busch's truck, but pigs will fly before Jason Leffler beats Kevin Harvick on any racetrack. This is the same tire we had last October, and while that race wasn't as good as the spring race, there was still plenty of passing, and we were denied some of that race by Brian Vickers crashing every 50 laps. The extra 150-200 horsepower of the cup car will certainly help to wear out those rear meats. 16. Mr X posted: 03.31.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry for the double post but this is something I forgot to mention in my last post regarding qualifying. This is an idea I've had bouncing around in my head for a while now but I never mentioned it. After qualifying pit stalls are chosen in the order that the teams qualified. The polesitter gets first choice, and 99.9% of the time he picks the last stall before the pit exit, 2nd gets 2nd choice and so on. My idea is to have the teams pick their qualifying seeds in the order that they practiced. Jeff Gordon was fastest in the first practice, so he would get first choice at when he wants to go out and qualify, today for example he may have picked an early seed because of the morning qualifying session, 2nd place in practice would get the next choice of when he wants to qualify, and so on. 17. cjs3872 posted: 03.31.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing is Mr X, that we may see plenty of passing up front in the first 300-350 laps for several reasons, most notable among them being the fact that you've got guys starting up front that aren't likely to stay there, and you've got guys that qualified further back than they normally do. Also, the intelligent drivers are not going to make an issue out of what position they're running in, so they'll be more likely to give up front. But I think by lap 350, barring late race strategy, you'll have the guys up front that will stay there. Also, just how much racing will actually take place in those final 125 laps? It could be that most of the last 125 laps will be run under green, but then again, half of the last quarter of the race (if not more) could be spent behind the pace car with most of the position changing depending on what line you're in on the restarts. If there are a lot of caution flags late, second through sixth or seventh will change on every restart, and often change signficantly, buyt no passing for the lead would take place due to the big advantage the inside line has. As for the order of qualifying, I still think the blind draw is a much better way to go, because in cases like today, teams will intentionally sandbag in the first practice session to get an earlier time to qualify (not surprisingly, Chad Knaus was the first to really take advantage of this early last year before other teams finally caught on to the sandbagging strategy), so I'd prefer the blind draw for Saturday afternoon qualifying. I really don't mind the reverse qualiying procedure for late Friday afternoon qualifying, as it would give the faster cars the advantage they deserve. When NASCAR made this rule change, their intention was to have the faster cars go out last, which works with late Friday afternoon qualifying, but inthe Saturday morning qualifying sessions, NASCAR forgot to take into consideration the aspect and tactic of sandbagging, intentionally holding back to get a better time to qualify. 18. LordLowe posted: 03.31.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) or Maybe CJS the drivers won't have the nerve or spine to go out there and race for the lead who knows. 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can't do that LordLowe. I already requested this weekend twice but they already have the maximum number of people on vacation (school's down here are on spring break, so they are going places with their kids). If I suddenly get sick, they will know. Besides, knowing my luck, they will put the camera right on me. 20. Spen posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had an odd dream last night. Bobby Labonte was leading this race with two laps to go, when for no particular reason, he went straight into the wall in turn 3. I chewed him out pretty hard about that after the race (apparently in this dream universe we're on a first-name basis). Probably not really relevent to anything, but if he ends up leading late in the race, watch out. 21. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, the drivers that I was referring to certainly have the nerve to race for positions up front. It's just that they know that there's a time to race and a time NOT to race, but rather to log laps and not be overly concerned about where they're running. There's a reason why four drivers, Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Denny Hamlin, and Tony Stewart have 20 combined victories at Martinsville, and why certain drivers, like Darrell Waltrip, David Pearson, Johnson, Gordon, Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, and even known chargers like Cake Yarborough and Dale Earnhardt were so successful, and that is that they knew when to race and when not to race. There's a reason why guys like that were all so successful in the more difficult races. They knew you couldn't race all the time, so they often picked and chose when they raced in a particular event they were in and when they just rode and logged laps, not caring what position they ran in, as long as they remained in the lead lap and in contention for the win. Bobby Unser always had a saying that went, "why make such a big issue out of 'such and such' place so early in the race". That's what I'm trying to get at here. The guys you generally see up front late in these races don't really care what position they're running in during the first 60-70% of the race, as long as they're in contention at the end. 22. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 10:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a huge race for this season. going into an off week, we need to carry some sort of momentum heading into the summer months. Hopefully Brad has a great race, but I just hoping for some good ol' short track racing. What ever happened to "Boys Have At It". It just seems to have been a marketing ploy to attract people. Drivers aren't being aggressive enough. 23. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cooper, the lack of on-track aggression has to do with two things, and one is the Chase and the other is the one point-per position breakdown. Drivers can't take as many chances as they used to, nor can they afford to because of the points deal. It's just not worth the risk. I said it many times last year and I'll say it again now. With the difference between second and third place points the same as the difference between 42nd and 43rd, if you had a driver in third place and knew that you could finish third, would you want your driver to take a chance to get second place if it only meant one point? I thinkl the answer would be obvious. In a word, "no". That's why the points need to be more weighted for higher finishing positions, and I'll continue to make that point. And as for on-track retaliation. Yes, one drive could retaliate against another, but the problem comes when an innocent third party (or more than one such innocent party) becomes involved. And "boys, have at it", which I thought was a bad idea from the start, only seemed to give the drivers the green light to retaliate with relative impunity. But you can't just give people a weapon to use if they do't know how to use it, and that was the problem with "boys, have at it". They gave the drivers, especially the younger drivers a weapon (or tactic) they didn't know how to use. 24. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Brad will have a good day today. This track ended his championship hopes last year, and I think he wants revenge on this half mile paperclip today. Also Denny Hamlin, will be the guy to beat today IMHO. 25. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watching at home. So odd. Gordon is kicking ass early. 26. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the first real surprise of this race came on the first lap when Kevin Harvick was able to get around Kasey Kahne from the outside of the first row. Another surprise is that Denny Hamlin is going back, though he should be among the leaders at the end. And it took Jeff Gordon just 22 laps to go from ninth to to the lead, the first time he's actually taken the lead this year. 27. joey2448 posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YEEAAA, GO BIG DADDY!!! Look at him go! 28. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is anyone else on here as surprised as I am that the groove seems to be moving up, as there are more cars running up the track that I could have imagined. Might that be why there's not been a caution nearing the 100-lap mark into this race. And by the way, am I seeing things or do I see a number of empty setas at Martinsville today? 29. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This might be the cleanest race at Martinsville in a long time. 30. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just wonder how the 24 team will screw things up this time 31. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nothing has gone right for Kyle this year. 32. Spen posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like my dream featured the wrong driver of the #18 wrecking. Otherwise, it looked pretty similar there. 33. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the new graphics for the speeding penalties. HAHA. 34. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That graphic was hilarious. If I didn't have JJ in the race pool I would find it even funnier. It is now Aric's fault June hasn't won in 4 years. 35. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also liked thew new graphic, also nice to see Bobby Labonte running decent. 36. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anybody know what happened to the #10 car of David Reutimann, because he went to the garage area at about the same time that Kyle Busch had his problem, which I think was a tire failure. 37. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) June is fast at the 1/4 mark. How will they screw it up? 38. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch broke the rear track bar and then bent the rear end housing when he smacked the wall. 39. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just realized, 2 weeks in a row JJ has been caught speeding. I think C Postgate and the appeal will haunt them. 40. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon has not led over 300 laps in a race since the 2003 fall race at Martinsville in which he led 313, and has not led over 400 laps in a single race since this race in 1997 in which he led 431 which is his career best for one race. I'm probably in the minority, but I wouldn't mind seeing a race similar to either of those, that kind of domination doesn't happen anymore, I think it's cool to see periodically, and I especially don't mind if its Jeff Gordon, and clean air means nothing here, Jeff Gordon's car is just that fast today I think, not even Denny can keep up. 41. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think we're going to break the average speed record today. 42. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darrell nailed it, everyone is running the same speed. Parity is not necessarily a good thing. Btw, with everyone having equal stuff, it is the best active driver dominating. No coincidence. 43. NadeauFan91 posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr to the lead before pitstops...I approve... 44. Anonymous posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Dale Jr is the only one that can compete with Gordon at this point. HMS cars are in a league of their own 45. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've wondered for a while now why NASCAR broadcasts continue to brag that any group of cars are running within a few hundredths of eachother. All that that means is that there is no potential for anything to happen amongst that group of cars. They will continue to run like they have been running. When a car has 1.5 second lead and is being run down 3 tenths a lap from the 2nd place car, and there is 5 to 10 laps to go then its time to get excited, because that's what leads to a great finish. 46. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Attention FOX: We don't give a shit about the TV stuff. Stop kissing your own ass and show us RACING! Now I really miss not being there. 47. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well, don't look now, but Jimmie's coming! He's up to fourth place. I said that he's the most fitting one to get Hendrick's 200th Cup victory, and I think he'll get it today. 48. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why did they let the 5 car back out? He was smoking the whole time. Cjs, why do you think JJ is more deserving than Jeff for the 200th win? 49. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see why Jimmie's more fitting than Jeff to get Hendrick's 200th win. 50. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The reason I think that Johnson is more fitting than Gordon for Hendrick's 200th win is the success over the last seven years. And if Johnson doesn't run into trouble, I think he's got this one in the bag, even though he's not led at any time today. You know that as well as Gordon has run today, that something is going to happen that will prevent him from winning. It could be Johnson (or someone else) outrunning him, a mismatched set of tires, a pit road miscue, or bad strategy (and Alan Gustafson's not exactly the best race strategist). 51. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully Brad spoils the Hendrick party. Get on it BK! 52. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another speeding penalty for Brad.....lol. 53. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad what is wrong with you in the pits? They got you to 3rd and you pissed it away. 2 weeks in a row. 54. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, I hate these wave-around cars. 55. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Phenomenal racing right now! 56. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was the best racing all year. On the one groove little paper clip out in the middle of rural Southern Virginia. 57. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kudos to Brad for making up for his mistake. He needs to quit trying too hard on pit road. He has fast cars, no need to push the envelope so bad in the pits. 58. Rusty posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does FOX need to show the crowd's reaction to Dale Jr. taking the lead whenever he does it. 59. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Jeff is fitting for HMS' 200th win since he's been there the longest of their current drivers and had the success that first elevated them to the next level. Ironically, he was the one who scored their 100th win, at Michigan in '01. Brad's lucky he has such a good car today to be able to make up for that hiccup on pit road. 60. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Joy brings up how the free pass recipients have rebounded and Larry and Darrell start explaining the wave around rule. 61. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well, RCRandPenskeGuy, he's not going to get it. Actually, this race is playing out EXACTLY as I thought it would. Gordon dominates early, then his car gets off in the handling department, and Johnson pounces. That's the way it has been going at Martinsville for years, and it appears that's the way this race is probably going to end, barring late cautions. 62. Alex posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is DW being paid to mention Hendrickcars.com at every opportunity he can? During Speedweeks he used the sponsor everytime he talked about Kurt Busch and now this weekend everytime he sees Kasey Kahne he uses the website name everytime he can. And WTF is up with the 29!?!!?! He dominated yesterday, had a rare front row start and won this race last year!! 63. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was on this day 5 years ago that these same two drivers battled for the win here 64. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is going to be yet another classic battle for the books between Gordon and Johnson. 65. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good work 10 team, you just ruined a classic finish between the two best drivers out there. 66. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DW owns a car dealership managed by Rick's car company. 67. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And neither Gordon nor Johnson will win now. 68. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) f**k you David Reutimann 69. Rusty posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman in front now with Allmendinger 2nd....lol. 70. New 14&88 Fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon gets screwed again, starting on old tires he and JJ didn't get a good start. Everyone got stacked up behind 'em and it cost 'em dearly. I feel bad for Bowyer, he was in the Top-5 all day long and now won't have anything to show for that great run. 71. New 14&88 Fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the 24's now out of gas, when it rains it pours for them 72. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are they scoring the #2 in 2nd? WTF. He can win this thing! 73. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go Bad Brad! 74. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now there moving the #2 back.WTF 75. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind 76. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 7th??????WTf NASCAR 77. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 7th...Thats bullshit 78. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a joke of a finish. 79. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 17 never got by the #2 during the wreck.....Yet he is scored ahead. OK Mr. Helton. 80. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah....That was f**ked up. 81. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a debacle. A f**king debacle. 82. Rusty posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AJ Allmendinger nearly got his win there. 83. New 14&88 Fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hello Newman!! 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR once again shows how bad they are at managing things when they go haywire. 85. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 78. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.12 - 4:41 pm "This is a joke of a finish." Quote of the year. Simple but true. 86. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And all of that was caused by Reutimann, lol 87. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What a debacle. A f**king debacle." I could not agree with this any more. I was pulling for AJ so hard to get the win. 88. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Amazing how 497 laps of really good racing can be totally ruined as quickly as it did in this race. 89. dUDE gUY posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a joke. An absolute joke of a race. I used to like Reutimann, but his feeble ploy to bring out the caution was just sickening. And Clint Bowyer could have afforded to be more patient. Had he waited till turn 3 to make his move, he'd probably be the one in victory lane right now. Pathetic race. Absolutely pathetic. 90. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad gets penalized for avoiding a wreck. The rule is they score the cars from the last scoring line. This is to make sure they don't penalize drivers for slowing down to avoid a wreck. This rule was ignored, and this cannot be tolerated. They had it right, and then decide to screw it up, coming to the one to go. Yeah whatever. 91. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was also wondering why Brad was restarting back in 7th, apparently NASCAR really sucks when rebunching up the field. 92. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth was never ahead of Brad, during the wreck. Never. The #17 was never ahead of the #2. Yet he restarted ahead of him... NASCAR screwed up. Plain and simple. Check the replay. 93. NadeauFan91 posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see how Brad got penalized, he was way back before the yellow came out. You guys are blind. 94. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny that Brad gets screwed by NASCAR scoring/loops after his win at the Bristol night race last year. 95. John Royal posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe Johnson and Gordon were not my personal favorites seeing winning Martinsville but I really enjoyed their battle. Until Reutimann become an ass. 96. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Once again the HMS guys are whining like little princesses. They worn on worn tires, was everyone supposed to just roll over for them. What looked like a classic turned into a showcase of everything that is wrong with NASCAR. 97. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That finish. Is. Bullshit. I'll say it again. THAT was bullshit. Thank you David Reutimann! 98. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It all depends when the Caution came out. One second he was in 2nd/3rd, the next back towards 6th to 10th. What really ticks me off is the 10 screwing Gordon's hard fought race. Best racing of the year though. 99. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPNEW2QtH44 Freeze at 0:20. Matt Kenseth is behind Brad. And was never ahead of him at any point. Yet he was scored ahead of 3 other drivers...HAHA. what a joke. This means only two things: 1) NASCAR is dumb 2) NASCAR intentionally tries to screw drivers. It's one of these two things. Have it either way. Proof baby. 100. Baker posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What did David Reuttiman do to bring out the caution that also led to Nascar calling him and his crew chief to the hauler? I'm only getting lap by lap coverage on my phone I cannot watch so please fill me in. 101. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann is getting hammered right now by all the drivers! Holy. 102. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Lord NASCAR has turned into a three ring circus 103. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reutteeeeeee Tootie had a broken (I believe) and instead of coming to the pits drove around the track at 15-30 mph and inevitably stopped on track. 104. Rusty posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love David Reutimann, respect a fellow Floridian, but that was just dumb and he ruined the race. 105. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Broken track bar. 106. Spen posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do believe that we have seen the conclusion of David Reutimann's career as a Cup driver. Sorry Reuty, but that was Ryan Nowrocki level of idiocy. You deserve lifelong unemployment for that. You are the weakest link. Goodbye. 107. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #104: What you said. Gah! 108. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shame, 2 could have easily beat the 39 if he had started second. Even the 22 nearly got by Newman. 109. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Reut = absolved. Yeah he should have pitted earlier, but we all do dumb shit. The top 35 is a big deal. 110. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey Dsff "whining like little princesses"? Did you not watch what happened? Jeff Gordon 328 laps led (411 career race led and 7th consecutive and 91st race where he's led the most) Jimmie Johnson 112 laps led and what do they get? pure idiocy, so they should be pissed(me too) 111. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best racing I've seen in a while and a damn good race, just a shame about the joke of a finish it had. Hendrick and Gordon/Johnson have a right to be ticked off. 112. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) The HMS guys should have realized they were on junk tires with a pack of fresh tires behind them. What did they think was gonna happen? To whine about people racing hard for a win is bullshit. 113. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) What are they supposed to do after a finish like that? Just shrug it off and smile? I think they have a right to be pissed off after that. I think every one of the drivers out there would be pissed if they lost a race THAT way. 114. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann was already 60 plus laps down, from making repairs to his brakes earlier in the race, he had a flat tire or a broken suspension component with less then 10 laps to go, and instead of doing the logical thing, and pitting, he rode around the track for several laps, and his car eventually came due to a stop apparently due to an engine problem as I watch his interview, and the caution came out with less than 5 to go came out as Jeff and Jimmie were battling for the win, and bringing out the original GWC. This further cements why I hate GWC's, and it also makes me think that NASCAR needs to do more to control the cars that come out of the garage. 115. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Gordon and Johnson got screwed as well.... 116. dUDE gUY posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I absolutely loved the racing, that is until Reutimann decided that bringing out the caution with 3 to go would give him any discernible advantage. I know they're fighting to stay in the top 35, but moves like that get you penalized. And he'll get penalized more points than he gained by being a giant women's sanitary product. His explanation at the end that it wasn't his fault, but instead that the tie rod broke AND the engine quit just laps after his left tires happened to blow out seemed a bit swiss-cheese-esque. Good to see Gordon was at least in good humour about the incident afterwards. Yeah, he complained, but I would too after leading over 300 laps just to lose it in the most ridiculous way I've personally seen. The fact that he was able to let it roll off his shoulders so soon after the incident bodes really well for his championship chances this year. 117. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I disagree about the Hendrick guys whining. Jeff's interview was about as classy as you can get. 328 laps led, and you get thrown back to 14th? He handled it way better than some of these other guys would have. Now, about the Brad thing. If you look at when the caution came out, he was clearly not in 2nd place. So I do think they made the correct call in moving him back a few spots. But I do agree with you guys about Kenseth's position relative to him. The 17 was behind the 2 the whole time. 118. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson and Gordon would likely have been screwed either way. What do you think would happen if they had pitted? I bet everyone else would have stayed out. I REALLY hate when a race gets decided over one dumbass thing like that. 119. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF I think you made the right call on missing this race. 120. joey2448 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon should have won the race...damn. As far as Reutimann's stalled car, I was pissed, just like everyone else, that it ruined that natural good finish, but his interview after the race was sincere. He did not intentionally bring out that caution. The finish was quite exciting! Just for the wrong reasons. Allmendinger nearly won it! What lost it for him is when he backed off in turn two of the last lap to get behind Newman and try a bump and run, only to have it backfire on him when he couldn't quite get to Newman's bumper in the final turn....oh well, a good finish for the 22 team. One more thing, I thought after that first crazy restart, Jeff still might have a chance at a good finish, cuz he was still scored sixth after the mayhem. The only thing was that his fender was blown out from his tire, and of course he ran out of fuel. 121. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only thing I'm really pissed about, was the #17 scored ahead of the #2 which was incorrect. I didn't expect Brad to be scored 2nd, but they shoved him back in the incorrect spot. If you want to run a 100% legit sport, you have to make sure your calls are correct. This includes telling slow drivers to head to the garage, and scoring cars correctly. You just don't sit in your booth, sipping margaritas all day and collect a paycheck. And some days I feel this is what they do. Oh well. I'll quit whining. The calls all even out eventually. Off Week. Then Texas. At least the race was entertaining today, and the season has gained some sort of momentum. 122. AlmirolaFan51/88/43 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The call of the finish sounded a bit subdued....Almost as if the guys in the booth were pulling for AJ to pull off the upset. 123. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I hope the events of this race cause NASCAR to reconsider letting damaged or broken cars that had to go to the garage area return to the track, because there were two incidents that took place that should never have happened. First, Kasey Kahne had engine problems that put him in the garage area, and just a few laps after returning to the track, his engine blew and he spun in his own oil in the pits. Then came the incident with David Reutimann at the end the race. First of all, a suspension part from his car broke way back when Kyle Busch had his problem in the third turn, and he had to make numerous trips to the garage area to get it fixed, and then he had unrelated engine problems right at the finish, and was going too fast to enter the pits when his engne problem first occurred, and could not coast back to the pits on the next lap. And also, is it me, or are the cars not able to coast around like they once did? The real problem here is that neither Kahne's car or Reutimann's car should have ever been allowed to return to the race, especially Kahne's. NASCAR should institute a rule that says that if a car has to make two trips to the garage area, that it's automatically out of the race. This has been an age-old problem in NASCAR. Check out the 1982 Daytona 500, and the big crash just past mid-race, which was caused by a car that had made several trips to the garage area and back on the track finally blowing up and creating a smokescreen for many of the leaders, five or six of whom ended up in a crash in turn one, so this is not a new problem. Now that is not what caused the crash on the first GWC attempt. What caused that was an absolutely idiotic move by Clint Bowyer. Bowyer tried an impossible move that was never going to work, and he wrecked four or five cars, including his own in the process. If he had tried that same move in two weks at Texas, it would probably have worked, but not at Martinsville. Now, I wonder what Reutimann's actions will have on the future of the #10 team, which is multi-layered. Remember that Reutimann is driving the races in that car that Danica Patrick won't be. However, in the races that Patrick runs, that car is a Stewart-Haas Racing car (the team the won) with Hendrick engines, but in the races that Reutimann runs in (and there may not be many more after today's fiasco), that car is officially owned by Tommy Baldwin Racing with Earnhardt-Childress engines. But the points Reutimann scores in that car count toward whether or not Danica will have to qualify on time for her next race, the Southern 500. Who would drive that car if Baldwin is pressured by these events to take Reutimann out? And in the ultimate battle for the win between Ryan Newman and A.J. Allmendinger, there seemed to be some surprise in how clean Newman raced Allmendinger, but there shouldn't have been, considering Newman's past ties to Penske Racing and the respect he still has toward Roger Penske's organization. In fact, had Allmendinger beaten Newman, I would not have been surprised if Newman had congratulated the Penske team for which he drove for nearly a decade. 124. Jarrett88fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A classic battle, only to be ruined by a driver many laps down. First it was Vickers, now Reutimann...Its ironic how Martinsville brings out the worst in drivers the last two trips there. Oh well, congrats to Newman on getting his obligatory one win a season before he returns to running 4th-20th for the rest of the year. That sure was a fluke win, but a driver has to put himself in position to capitalize on better cars misfortunes. 125. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Now that is not what caused the crash on the first GWC attempt. What caused that was an absolutely idiotic move by Clint Bowyer. Bowyer tried an impossible move that was never going to work, and he wrecked four or five cars, including his own in the process. If he had tried that same move in two weks at Texas, it would probably have worked, but not at Martinsville." Alright, I completely, and respectfully disagree with this. First of all, Clint was trying to win the race. He had two guys in front of him with 100+ lap older tires then him. And also, if you watch the replay, you'll see that Newman bumped him before they all got to the corner. I'm sure Clint realized that it might not have worked, but he wouldn't have been able to back off anyway because of the bump from Newman. 126. Spen posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: Probably Elliott Sadler. He already drives a Chevy, and has the necessary experience. Or they could take a chance on Stephen Leicht. He impressed in that car last year at Richmond. 127. Ryan posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) This is all Danica's fault 128. BON GORDON posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im pissed at David but theres nothing anyone can do now. Im not mad at Bowyer. He went for the win. I said if Gordon had nothing major go wrong that he was going to win. Unfortunately the #10 car cost him a win. And im shocked more people didnt stay out but I guess there was only nine or so cars on the lead lap. I wouldve stayed out too. That caution just sucked. Gordon has no luck this year. Bristol 5th, California 4th, Today Win. Thats what shouldve happened but oh well. Its gotta improve eventually. 129. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This is all Danica's fault" Who knows? David could've done as bad in the 500. 130. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey I am going to Make A bold Prediction: Hendrick Motorsports will fail to win a single race this season. 131. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race replaces Gordon's defeat in the 1997 Bristol Night race as his ultimate failure here's my Top 5 Gordon Single race failures 1. This Martinsville 2. Bristol Night 1997 3. Watkins Glen 2007 4. Early Richmond 1998 5. Las Vegas 2010 132. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I think we need to settle down with the Reut hate. I was pissed at first as I typed, but that team is fighting for their lives, not for position, but for their jobs. He was just trying to limp to the finish. Yeah, he should have pitted, but he had no idea that would happen like it did. 133. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What happened to Reutimann today is what I call being the victim of the "Danica curse". 134. Breaker posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is the ironic part. Reutimann was 20 laps ahead of Kyle Busch before his car went haywire, but by causing the yellow which led to subsequent GWC, Kyle Busch ended up only 1 lap behind Reutimann, so he almost cost himself a point by staying out. Also, Reutimann was 3 laps behind Blaney, the car in front of him, who was out. Did Blaney (his teammmate) park it earlier so Reutimann could get the one more point??? If Reutimann had somehow kept going, and didnt get lapped again, he would have tied the lap Blaney was on but Blaney would have gotten the position since he got to that lap first. So no matter the likely scenarios, Reutimann was not going to gain or lose any spots whether he had pitted or if he had stayed out and kept going. His excuse is somewhat flimsy, though I will assume they did not have access to all the information in just an instant. 135. DavidReutimannShouldRetire posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reutimann's a f***ing idiot who should be penalized points for what he did. He ruined a race trying to save points, and in the end, he cost the entire sport and the fans. So the only fair thing to do, I think, is take points away from his team. What he was doing broke the rules, and hurt the sport. Reutimann changed NASCAR history today. His dumb move will have reverberations that will be felt for the entire season, and for years to come. For one, he affected Jeff Gordon's career win total. He cost Hendrick his 200th win, which would have come in a classic finish by two of the top 5 drivers who have ever strapped into a car. That Gordon-Johnson battle was pure driving, pure NASCAR, the kind of racing we so seldom get to see. Ruined. By gifting Newman the win, he has potentially altered the drivers who will make the Chase, through the wildcards. He altered the points, nobody knows how important those 8-10 points he cost Gordon, or Johnson, or Bowyer might be. Nobody knows how important the extra points other drivers gained will be. He cost several owners extra money in damages. He cost all us fans extra time to sit and watch that sham of a finish. It's incredibly frustrating that some backmarker never-was driver could so drastically affect a race, and the entire sport of NASCAR, through such a dumb, DUMB move. 136. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Maybe you're right about Reut DSFF: Also about The Hendrick Drivers they remind me of a Spoiled Rich High School Clique who expects to get everything they want and when they don't get it they just do their usual whining and Moaning. 137. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 131. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.12 - 5:48 pm This race replaces Gordon's defeat in the 1997 Bristol Night race as his ultimate failure here's my Top 5 Gordon Single race failures 1. This Martinsville 2. Bristol Night 1997 3. Watkins Glen 2007 4. Early Richmond 1998 5. Las Vegas 2010 Loudon in 2001, has got to be in there somewhere, 257 of 300 laps led and a 15th place finish. 138. AlmirolaFan51/88/43 posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip Racing is as good as they've ever been this year. If Reuti wasn't fired, he wouldn't have even been in this position. Calling him a never was is just stupid. He's been outrunning Dave Blaney all year but hasn't had the finishes to show for it. 139. Ryan posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm very disappointed in Ryan Newman. First he pushes the 15 of Clint Bowyer down to the inside of the 24 and 48 and causes a big wreck which eliminates the two cars that had led nearly 3/4 of the race. Then he brake-checks Dale Earnhardt Jr. on the restart for the GWC. Classless, dirty racing. That's what that was. I've always respected Newman, but tonight I am very disappointed in him. 140. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 137. Mr X damn, I forgot about The Infamous first Lowe's racing win,irony. I think this race ranks up there with Jeff Gordon's Triple Crown of ultimate defeats being his 1996,2004 and 2007 points title failure's even. This race has so much impact it's crazy! 141. DavidReutimann-is-a-has-been posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So no matter the likely scenarios, Reutimann was not going to gain or lose any spots whether he had pitted or if he had stayed out and kept going. His excuse is somewhat flimsy, though I will assume they did not have access to all the information in just an instant." Well when you're running around all race in the back of the field several laps down, you'd think someone on the team could take 2 minutes to do some simple math and relay that information to Reutimann. He had nothing to lose or gain or by staying out as he did, except for the respect of all the fans and the drivers. So I guess ruining a race, losing the respect of your peers, and pissing off the entire fanbase is alright, if maybe, JUST MAYBE, you can gain that one extra point. 142. Jarrett88fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) You can add Fall Richmond 2011 and Spring Darlington 2002 to the Gordon ultimate defeats list too... "Also about The Hendrick Drivers they remind me of a Spoiled Rich High School Clique who expects to get everything they want and when they don't get it they just do their usual whining and Moaning." Excellent observation, 100% on the money. It is too bad controversy gets more attention than the great racing, but this seems to be one theme of 2012, so far. 143. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #139: What's he supposed to do - race to lose? 144. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, all Bowyer had to do was hold his line and he would have gotten by Johnson in turn two, and would probably have given Gordon the bumper either in turn three or in turn on on he next lap. he didn't have to try a move that was never going to work, and I think he planned to try that move. Sure, Ryan Newman got into the back of Bowyer, but that was a result of the leaders both getting a bad restart due to the much older tires they were on. The fact that he got all the way beside Gordon is proof of his intent. That was a move that was never going to work at Martinsville. Again, at a track like Texas, where the next race will be held, that move may work, but not at Martinsville, where there's barely enough room for two car to race side-by-side, much less three. The bigger problem I have here is NASCAR letting broken down cars stay on the track because we actually saw two of those cars bring out cautions later with one, Kasey Kahne, actually spinning on pit road due to oil from his engine. And this has been an age-old problem that I have thought should have been done away with years ago, and that is letting broken down cars that have made multiple trips to the garage area back on the track. Again, I use the 1982 Daytona 500 as a reference because Bobby Wawak had made multiple trips to the garage area with engine problems, then had an engine failure just past the halfway point with the leader closing on him, which caused a crash involving six cars, including Neil Bonnett, Benny Parsons, Richard Petty (who suffered a foot injury), Buddy Baker, Ron Bouchard, and Elliott Forbes-Robinson. And David Hobbs called NASCAR out on that, and I don't now why more people don't criticize NASCAR for allowing damaged and broken cars to continue to race when they're only jeopardizing the safety of others. 145. Alex posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everyone makes mistakes... 146. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Terrible finish. I like seeing Newman win and everything but this race belonged to Gordon. After leading the bulk of the race, finally getting by Johnson with only 4 laps to go, after hunting him down the entire last portion of the race to take what was rightfully his. It was just perfect. David Reutimann lost a lot of respect among his fellow drivers today. I'm sure he'll be apologizing an awful lot when they go to Texas. Whoever said the 10 car should lose points is absolutely right. That team's actions (I'm sure his crew chief had more to do with the car staying out than David himself did) were detrimental to stock car racing. It ruined a good finish characterized by good, hard racing and left us with pit strategy and bumper cars determining the outcome. 147. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm very disappointed in Ryan Newman. First he pushes the 15 of Clint Bowyer down to the inside of the 24 and 48 and causes a big wreck which eliminates the two cars that had led nearly 3/4 of the race. Then he brake-checks Dale Earnhardt Jr. on the restart for the GWC. Classless, dirty racing. That's what that was. I've always respected Newman, but tonight I am very disappointed in him." Classless? Dirty? It's Martinsville, it happens almost every race here. Have you ever seen a NASCAR race in the past 15-20 seasons? Have you ever seen what Dale Earnhardt did to Terry Labonte at Bristol, or what Kyle Busch did to Junior at Richmond? Jeff had 130-lap-old tires, had a slow restart and Bowyer had to slow up. You call Newman accidentally running into the back of Bowyer classless? And how about "brake-checking Dale Earnhardt Jr on the restart"? Everybody does that nowadays. Newman is one of the more classy guys out there right now. To call him classless is to state that either of the Busch brothers had a big enough brain to graduate elementary school. 148. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If anyone, Reuti should have pit when he had the chance. I know he was fighting for a top-35 spot, but 1.) he is not that bad of a qualifier and 2.) he changed the outcome of the race. He's smarter than that (then again, I overestimated Kyle Busch in 2007 when he said the COT sucked). 149. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone ever seen Rick Hendrick more upset? 150. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...Not counting the obvious 2004 Martinsville of course. 151. KBM18 posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've had my problems with Keselowski, but I love how he's calling for Reutimann to be suspended. Whether or not Reutimann actually deserves it is another story. I hated that finish like everybody else. I was up on my feet shouting as Gordon was racing Johnson, because it was such good racing. Then during everything that came after I was sitting down quiet, just shaking my head in disappointment and disbelief. I felt cheated. Is NASCAR ok with their fans feeling that way? We'll see, I guess. I personally don't think one team struggling to save one single point is worth destroying a race. Some crappy field-filler like Reutimann isn't bigger than the entire sport, and those back of the pack drivers should understand that when they do stupid things, it can affect the entire race. 152. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Reutimann is suspended then Danica Patrick will have to race... 153. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) #151: I have two words for you. "That's Racin'." 154. Texas Terry posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shame Hendrick couldn't have gotten win #200 today. As everyone else has pointed out, this race was almost too perfect before that Reutimann caution. You had Hendrick sweeping the top 3, a classic duel for the win, Gordon getting win number 86 and taking sole possession of third on the all time wins list, all at the site of Hendrick's first win. The only way it would have been better was if Kahne hadn't blown that engine and had been in the top 5, where he belonged. But whatever, that's racin' I guess. 155. 1995z71 posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Reutimann is suspended then Danica Patrick will have to race... " they wont suspend david for that. 156. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know about Keselowski saying Reutimann should be suspended. That seems too severe for the driver when it was really the team/crew chief's fault. First, for sending him back out with a car that was falling apart, and second for not relaying to him that he couldn't really gain or lose any positions at that point in the race. Reutimann can't do the math while he's driving the car. His hands aren't entirely clean here, I know, but he's not the only one on the team at fault. 157. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, some people are seriously vouching for Reutimann to be suspended? It's funny, I don't remember anyone calling for Denny Hamlin to get suspended when he did the same thing at Richmond in 2008. (The race where Kyle and Dale Jr. had their dustup.) Denny had a flat, but he stayed out for several laps, and then finally stopped on the track to bring out the caution. I think he got penalized for a couple of laps, but I don't remember anyone calling for him to get suspended. 158. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Reutimann doesn't get suspended, then his crew chief WOULD. But, his CC is Tommy Baldwin. They have to let him show up to race weekend, since he owns the 10 (when David is racing) and the 36. So, that would mean David would have to get suspended. He should've known better...he knew his car was a garbage pile. 159. RaceFanX posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman wins in the Outback Steakhouse car. Outback ran a tie-in promotion where if Ryan finished this race in the top-10 everyone would get a free 'Bloomin' Onion' with purchase at their restaurants the next day. Thank you Ryan! 160. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about Pocono 1995 or The Winson in 1998 on the crushing Gordon defeat list? Did Brad really call for Reut to be suspended? I hope not, and I hope he pulls back if given the chance once he cools down. Kes of all active top drivers should appreciate racing for a living more than anyone. He did it with his family team, first as a crewman then as their driver for a long time. No matter what, the 24 and the 48 will be back next week and the rest of the year, as will Brad himself. What about TBR? 161. Kyle posted: 04.01.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin on twitter "Heck u know what's coming anyway...36 will exchange points with the 10 to make sure they are good anyway...Poor Blaney". 162. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol, if we did the Top 5 Earnhardt crushing defeats, it would all be Daytona 500s. 163. KBM18 posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Article with Keselowski talking about Reutimann: http://www.sbnation.com/nascar/2012/4/1/2918704/nascar-martinsville-2012-results-david-reutimann/in/2677713 A suspension would be pretty rough. But I still love that Keselowski is outspoken enough to even suggest it. 164. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way CJS, you and I are just gonna have to agree to disagree on the Bowyer-Gordon-Johnson crash. However, I thought you made some good points on them letting terminally damaged race cars back out on the track. I don't understand why they let the 5 car back out there. He had already blown up basically... 165. Anonymous posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Losing a race at the hands of Jeremy Mayfield wouldn't slide into Earnhardt's Top 5? 166. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that the 5 got the OK by NASCAR officials, but when the engine got refired I'm sure he left oil in the garage area. 167. murb posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's crushing defeats? Phoenix 2010? Anyone? 168. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What about North Wilkesboro 1989: BOTH OF THEM SPIN 169. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, 2000 Pocono race would be there. As would 1989 Wilkesboro. 170. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Phoenix would have been kinda of "handed to him" win I need to revise the Top 5 Gordon defeats list a little 1. Spring Martinsville 2012 2. Bristol Night 1997(The crowd reaction adds to it) 3. The Winston 1998 4. Richmond 1998 5. Watkins Glen 2007 Honorable mention: Pocono June 1995(an extremely rare error on the restart) 171. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Texas in April of 2010, another crushing Gordon defeat. 172. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most of his competitive Texas races would be in there 173. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This in my view was not only a crushing defeat but Highway robbery against Harry Gant at the 1989 Busch Series race at Rockingham in March. 174. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fine, here is my Earnhardt list: 1) 1990 Daytona 500 2) 1986 Daytona 500 3) 1993 Daytona 500 4) 1989 Holly Farms 400 (cost him a Winston Cup) 5) 2000 Pocono 500 (to a freaking meth user!) 6) 1988 First Union 400 7) 1987 Martinsville Fall Race 8) 1991 Daytona 500 9) 1993 Bud at the Glen 10) 2000 Southern 500 175. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's races like this that make me wish there was some way of implementing a local yellow on an oval. Sure, the last three laps would only have been half as good, but it still would have been better than this mess. But I know it'll never happen. The point right up to the point of the #10 stopping on the track - that's why i watch NASCAR. From then on after the #10 had stopped - everything I can't stand about NASCAR! Anyway, on to Texas. This race last year was easily one of the best of the season, IMO. So hopefully we'll get a repeat of that. 176. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #78 sponsor: Furniture Row/Denver Mattress (same for Bristol) #55 sponsor: RK Motors Charlotte (only a small Aaron's logo) 177. ch posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #33 Owner: Joe Falk. (Purchased the 33 team earlier this week) 178. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF Late Talladega 1996? Daytona 500 1997? Late Rockingham 1989?(This race cost him the Championship as much as Wilksboro) 179. ch posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just so that everyone knows Tommy's thinking.... They beat the 18 by ONE lap = +1 Lost to the 36 by three laps = -1 ----------------------------------------------- Out of top 35 by one point. If they had been able to limp around the last final five laps, they could have been in the top 35. If they had stopped they would have lost the point to the 18. What would you do if you were Tommy. I have the utmost respect for him and TBR as a whole, and this will not change that as he was just racing... 180. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ But, it would be a tie. Being a new team, I'm sure that the 10 would lose the tiebreaker anyway 181. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If we are talking about far reaching effects, then the '96 Dega race is definitely there. That, along with RCR consistently falling behind ever since the new Monte Carlo marked the end of the Earnhardt era. From that point forward (remember, he was in the title hunt at the time) he only won 4 plate races, one chrome horn aided short track race, and one intermediate win by inches. 1997 Daytona actually added to Dale's legacy in defeat. 1989 Rockingham wasn't going to be a win for him like Wilkesboro, he got dumped being lapped. But that was part of the North Carolina Fall Trifecta that cost him the Cup (early blown engine at Charlotte, Rudd at Wilkesboro, Rusty at The Rock) 182. dUDE gUY posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, (#160) the move to stay out will probably end up being more detrimental than if they just pitted. But aside from that, look at who finished behind him. Kyle Busch, with one less lap completed. Ok, on the surface it seems like Reutimann had reason to stay on. But here's the rub: Reutimann retired when the leaders were on lap 497, and Kyle Busch ran till the completion of the race, which ended on lap 515. Which means that if Reutimann pulled into pits on 497 and the race ended on lap 500, KB would have only completed 420 laps instead of the 435 he ended up completing. Plenty less than the 436 that Reutimann finished at the time of his retirement. That means Davind had 16 laps on KB when he retired from the race. And considering that Yeley, the first guy behind KB, completed only 359 laps and was retired, there was absolutely NO reason to pull such a dumbass manoeuvre. None. At. All. True, his engine and tie rod DID break, but they should have pulled it in at the first sign of trouble. NASCAR even black flagged them for it. If there is a points penalty, even a small one (and I hope there is, as this type of behaviour is disrespectful to the other drivers and teams, and just a lame, boneheaded move in general), they will lose more then they could have possibly gained from such a poorly thought out decision. Possibly even more than just points. Respect, likeability, and chances for sponsorship all dropped for David and TBR because of a poorly thought out short-term gain move. Anyways, to to sum up the point of my post, Reutimann had 16 laps on KB at the time of his on track stoppage. Let me repeat that: 16 laps. Let me spell it out so it will sink in: SIXTEEN LAPS. He had enough laps on KB to have a reasonably comfortable margin. He could have retired it a couple of laps earlier than 497 and STILL have about 10 laps on KB. I don't get it. I just don't f**king get it. 183. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to say since the new Monte Carlo was introduced in 1995 (they were noticeably behind HMS that year) and that he never truly competed for a championship after that. His runner up in 2000 was smoke and mirrors. He got close in early summer, then Bobby just pulled off into the sunset. 184. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not saying it wasn't a bad move by Reut and TBR. But I promise you they had no idea that would happen. Did you see Reut's interview? He almost cried. 185. Breaker posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To 'ch'... Reutimann would not have been beaten by Kyle Busch had he pulled in early, because Kyle Busch was many laps behind him, its only because the race got extended 15 laps that Kyle was able to get within 1 lap of Reutimann. If Reutimann had pitted, in all likelihood the race would have stayed green and went 500 laps, and he would have beaten Kyle by 15 laps. 186. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Reutimann isn't suspended, he should be fined at least $10,000 and 15 driver/owner points. If Tony Stewart is stupid enough, he'll put himself in the 10 at Texas and Danica will be in the 14 so she can make the show. At least Tony is locked in by virtue of PCP (unless Terry Labonte or Bill Elliott show up somehow). 187. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "176. ch posted: 04.01.12 - 7:35 pm Just so that everyone knows Tommy's thinking.... They beat the 18 by ONE lap = +1 Lost to the 36 by three laps = -1 ----------------------------------------------- Out of top 35 by one point. If they had been able to limp around the last final five laps, they could have been in the top 35. If they had stopped they would have lost the point to the 18. What would you do if you were Tommy. I have the utmost respect for him and TBR as a whole, and this will not change that as he was just racing..." Yes but the 10 car was retired after the engine failure, if they would've pitted, the race likely would've run to its scheduled distance, 500 laps. Kyle Busch kept going during the two GWC's, logging 18 laps after the 10 car was retired. If they had pitted and the race ran to only 500 laps then Kyle Busch would've only completed 420, as he was 80 laps down, David Reutimann would've beaten him by roughly 15 laps, as when he retired the car he was 65 laps down at the 497 lap mark. They had nothing to lose by pitting, in fact they almost cost themselves the spot by precipitating the race to be extended. Not to mention potential penalties for making such a stupid decision so late in the race. I still respect David Reutimann, and I believe the engine did fail as he passed the pit entrance, however that team should've pitted him. 188. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hate to say "I told you so" to the people who said the 98 wasn't gonna return to parking. The whole K Love full year deal was a load of crap, and they've parked with K Love on the car anyway. 189. Anonymous posted: 04.01.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just so that everyone knows Tommy's thinking.... They beat the 18 by ONE lap = +1" They only beat the 18 by ONE lap because Reutimann single-handedly added 15 laps to the race by being an idiot. They were well ahead of the 18 before that. "Kes of all active top drivers should appreciate racing for a living more than anyone. He did it with his family team, first as a crewman then as their driver for a long time." Yeah, I'm sure Reutimann's really roughing it with the $22 million he's made in Cup, the $4.5 million he's made in Nationwide, and the other $1.3 million he's made in the Truck series. He's probably barely putting food on his families table. They're living week to week and month to month on a kitchen-scratch millionaire sport star salary. And it's not like Reutimann ever made any money for those commercials he's done, and he's not getting an annual salary I'm sure. The guy is just a poor good ole boy pinching pennies to bring his car to the race track. (And yes, I'm aware that a driver doesn't actually get to keep all of his winnings, I just wanted to point out the ridiculous analogy you were trying to make. Reutimann is rich. Reutimann is in the 1%. He has a job, and makes a lot of money doing it, even if he was only qualifying for HALF of the races on the schedule, and nobody should feel sorry for his financial situation.) 190. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #98 sponsor: Curb Records/K Love 191. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anon: I'm so happy to hear you consider him in the "1%". Leaving aside the load of crap all that is, Reuitmann isn't even in the top 75% of NASCAR drivers... "At least Tony is locked in by virtue of PCP (unless Terry Labonte or Bill Elliott show up somehow)." Er, PCPs Do Not Work That Way. Tony, as the most recent champion, IS locked in, PERIOD. (This is why I was scratching my head over the "36 = 10" points deal, when "14 = 10" would have made much more sense.) Also, I agree that teams that are no longer capable of (a) moving up in the standings or (b) dropping in the standings, if the race is run to its scheduled distance, should be parked. But I don't believe that there should be any penalty to the 10 or Reutimann. He tried to limp his way to the finish, he failed, That's Racin'. 192. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think that the 98 parked, even though they DNF'd on lap 60, I think that they actually had a brake problem. If they DNF early at Texas, I'd like to agree with you, TheTruth. Er, PCPs Do Not Work That Way. Tony, as the most recent champion, IS locked in, PERIOD. (This is why I was scratching my head over the "36 = 10" points deal, when "14 = 10" would have made much more sense.) If another PC qualifies ahead of another PC, then the lower-qualifying PC DNQ's. It happened in the Daytona 500 this year; this is why Bill Elliot didn't race. 193. Kyle posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #98 is running full races with K-love in various races throughout the year, and the companies logos will be on the car in some races they will be parking in as a "thank you" to them, similar to how joe nemechek has AM / FM Energy, his nationwide series sponsor, on his cup car just as a "thank you" to them. 194. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd like to see the reaction From fans in F1 if say the great Malaysian Grand Prix from earlier this year was interrupted by the lamest excuse for a caution and worst yet a restart that makes me wonder why I bother with the joke that Nascar has become where great racing between legends for the win isn't as important as some controversial soap opera bullshit finish. 195. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What about the crew members at TBR? What if they fall out, have to fold that team, and let go of many crewmen? Yes, as it turns out it wouldn't have made a difference, but they can't risk it. 196. ii posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I don't think that the 10 team will fold, by any means. Larry Gunselman's team is in its 3rd year of S&P, as well as NEMCO. I'm sure that the 10 will last at least through the season. 197. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bottom line: Reut and TBR have earned the beneifit of the doubt. Reut has been nothing but gracious since he showed up, and TBR have built themselves up from nothing. They could have continued to exploit the system and S&P forever, but they have built a decent RACE team. If it were a repeat offender who has shown repeatedly in the past that they don't give a shit (like the Busch Brothers) then yeah, we should call for their heads. But not Reut and TBR. And yes I know TBR was involved in the shady deal to get Danica in the 500, but I think they were lured with promises from SHR that don't seem to be coming to fruition. 198. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd like to see the reaction From fans in F1 if say the great Malaysian Grand Prix from earlier this year was interrupted by the lamest excuse for a caution and worst yet a restart that makes me wonder why I bother with the joke that Nascar has become where great racing between legends for the win isn't as important as some controversial soap opera bullshit finish. " I believe that the same scenario would never happen in Formula 1, because of two things that separate the two championships - Green White Chequered finishes and local yellow flags. If a car stalled on the track with three laps to go in a Grand Prix, there would be yellow flags displayed at that section of track, but no safety car and the race would be left to finish - under green - at the scheduled distance. Because local yellows aren't used on ovals, NASCAR doesn't really have another option in a situation like this. I would prefer to see them re-evaluate their policies regarding late-race cautions, but ultimately, with the rules the way they are, there wasn't really anythig else NASCAR could have done. 199. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have a great idea! Pit Road remains closed no matter what with a GWC in place unless a car absolutely has to pit. F1 also should adopt a rule that prevents work on the cars under red flag conditions, as this ruined the 2011 Monaco Grand Prix finish. 200. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 This was Gordon's 91st dominant(led most)race,is this the modern record? I know the King holds the all-timer but I don't know what the Top 5 list actually looks like could you help? Gordon 91 Stewart 58 Johnson 43 or 44 201. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Larry Gunselman's team is in its 3rd year of S&P" Larry Gunselman's team isn't running anymore - Rick Ware bought them out. "I have a great idea! Pit Road remains closed no matter what with a GWC in place unless a car absolutely has to pit." And...why, exactly? Oh, yeah, because Jeff Gordon didn't win... 202. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because it's a GWC! why do you need to pit when there's 3 to go? take away the garbage strategy crap that has no place with only a few laps left and yes i'm saying this because Gordon lost and not because it logically makes sense, sorry genius. 203. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd like to see the reaction From fans in F1 if say the great Malaysian Grand Prix from earlier this year was interrupted by the lamest excuse for a caution " I guess I should also mention another difference between F1 and NASCAR - and that is the fact that no one is allowed to critisize NASCAR. I think we all agree that, in regards to the positioning of the 2 and 17, the got it wrong. But you won't ever hear anything about it, at least not from anyone who really matters. If the same thing were to have happened in F1, there would have been a massive debate brought up, which you'll never see in NASCAR because NASCAR won't let anyone say a bad word about them. In this years Australian Grand Prix, we saw the first use of F1's version of the wave around rule. When this was happening, Martin Brundle (former driver, current commentator) mentioned his absolute disgust at the rule, saying he believed it was a stupid waste of time and that it was quite pointless. You'd never hear the same thing in a NASCAR broadcast and I'd hate to think of what the ramifications would be.... 204. 10andJoe posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "why do you need to pit when there's 3 to go?" Because you can get fresh tires? Because people want to see teams actually use their heads and STRATEGY instead of being forced to sit on their hands for a parade? Because we don't need NASCAR's rulebook manipulating races any more than it already does? We're supposed to be seeing NASCAR, where the team that puts the best package together wins, not IROC where everything is exactly the same. Things SHOULDN'T be equal among the teams. "it logically makes sense" The question is on which planet. 205. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MyothercarisanM535i, you can't keep racing on an oval when there's a car stopped on the track. Have you ever watched the 1971 Indianapolis 500? Back then, USAC had a policy where they just parked any disabled cars on the track on the inside of the track next to the wall just before the entrance to the pits. But on the 168th lap (I think), Mike Mosley lost a wheel in turn four and hit the wall. Bobby Unser, the second car behind Mosley (Peter Revson was the first behind Mosley but had enough room to escape) had a choice to make, and that was to either hit Mosley's car or take evasive action. Unser wisely chose the latter, but also hit the wall. Both cars then careened down and hit three cars that were parked on the inside part of the track in the area I spoke. They were the cars of Steve Krisiloff (who's engine problem much earlier started another of that day's major crashes), Bentley Warren, and Mark Donohue. The combination of the five cars caused a fire and Donohue's car just about turned over. Mosley was burned in the fire, and it would likely have been much worse for Mosley had Gary Bettenhausen not stopped and pulled him out of the car. That's exactly why you can't race on an oval with cars stopped on the track. And as for those that blame David Reutimann, they don't really know what they're talking about. Reutimann's the last one to blame for this situation. If anything, the fault lies with NASCAR itself. REutimann's car broke a suspension part early in the race (about the same time Kyle Busch had his own trouble) and they had to go behind the wall at least two or three times to fix it. That car should never have even been on the track at that time of the race to start with. In fact, Jimmie Johnson nearly hit it exiting turn four late in the race, and then Dale Earnhardt, Jr., running third, nearly ran into it. But I don't fault Reutimann, or the #10 team for that matter. The blame falls squarely on NASCAR, who just don't have people in charge that know how to run a race. Wally Dallenbach, Sr. used to be the IndyCar chief stewart for years. I think it's time for NASCAR to get rid of John Darby (and maybe Robin Pemberton, as well) and maybe put Wally Dallenbach, Jr. in charge. After all, if you've listened to a race he's broadcasted, he pulls no punches, and I think he'd do the same from the officiating tower. After all, NASCAR needs someone in charge that will make the necessary tough calls, as well as knowing how to conduct a race, and who better than a man who's father has been in that business for decades and has nine full NASCAR seasons of experience as a driver, as well as 11 years in the broadcast booth as the most opinionated commentator to conduct a race. 206. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) alright you want to fight or troll that's fine I don't care, you can devise your own opinion and that's fine, but I don't see how the race at Martinsville is better off with everyone pitting with 3 to go, this isn't Days of Thunder,(Cole Trickle's first win at Darlington they pit with 2 to go)it's just stupid. 207. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) JG24FanForever, you are coming off as butthurt over this whole race. Am I mad? Of course I am, but I'll get over it. I could complain all I want about what happened, but is it going to change anything? No. As a Jeff Gordon fan I think you are making us all look bad. 208. cjs3872 posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, you say that Jeff Gordon's 91 race leading the most laps, which is nearly three entire seasons of leading the most laps in every race may be close to the modern record. I don't think it's even close. If I had to venture a guess, someone like Cale Yarborough, Dale Earnhardt, or Darrell Waltrip have probably done that 150 times or more in the modern era as often as they dominated races in their heyday. Now Gordon's 328 laps put him within just 216 of Darrell Waltrip for fifth on the all-time list, and David Pearson (fourth) would not be totally out of the question, either. And let's not forget that a lot of the cars pitted on that caution that caused the first GWC not just for tires, but also for fuel, as fuel was a big issue late in the race. In fact, both Jeff Gordon's and Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s crew chiefs told their respective drivers to conserve fuel late, so fuel was an issue. And as for those that have criticized the decision of the #24 and #48 teams for not pitting. Well, they were basincally in jail in that regard. If they had pitted, a lot of other cars would have stayed out, so they did the only thing they could do to win the race once that caution came out. 209. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "199. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.12 - 8:39 pm I have a great idea! Pit Road remains closed no matter what with a GWC in place unless a car absolutely has to pit." The problem with that is with all the fuel mileage races that happened in 2011 and are likely to keep happening in 2012 and beyond until Goodyear builds a softer tire, half the field will absolutely have to pit, a better rule would be that no tires can be changed under the GWC, again, unless absolutely necessary, a flat for example. However the biggest rule that I am a new lobbyist for was the rule suggested earlier. Once a car that has spent time in the garage and returned to the track, they must retire the car once they have reached a point where they can't gain or lose any positions in the races scheduled distance. If driver A is 25 laps behind the car in front of him, and 30 laps ahead of the driver behind him, and there is 24 laps to go, driver A must retire. Period. 210. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS - I did say that given the rules of the sport, there was nothing else NASCAR could have done. And besides, it's pointless to mention the 1971 Indy 500 (which I have watched, on your reccomendation - thank you), because in no way at all do I endorse or agree with the decisions made in that race. 211. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Reutimann is rich. Reutimann is in the 1%." LOL, maybe he's got money compared to you and I, but do you realize how much money he has to make in order to ACTUALLY be in the 1%? He's not even close. I'm sure he goes home from his weekend driving for RICKY BENTON & TOMMY BALDWIN and whips out the Cristal on his yacht. Yeah, the dude's loaded. 212. dUDE gUY posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, (#184) they had a car with tires going down, a tie rod broken, and an engine going kerplooie. Three things going wrong simultaneously. If it was just one thing going wrong, then by all means stay on the track for as long as you can. But two or more things going wrong at the same time have a tendency to compound on each other and make imminent failure that much more possible. You can't possibly tell me that David and TBR couldn't see the inevitable car failure coming. A lot of drivers saw it coming. NASCAR saw it coming, and rightfully black flagged him. For f**cks sake even I saw it coming, and I'm just a viewer with a very loose, basic understanding of how cars work and no information on what was actually going wrong with David's car (at the time). I'm still calling bullshit on their claim that they didn't realize a rapidly failing car would fail rapidly. I want to sympathize with David and TBR, but it's hard to sympathize with a team that should have seen themselves rapidly sliding into rock bottom but did nothing to stop the descent. To me, the worst, and most ironic part about this debacle is that David almost nullified the 16 lap gap he had on Kyle Busch by staying on the track and setting up 15 extra laps of racing. Even if David's car didn't shut down, I doubt that NASCAR would have scored his laps after he got black flagged anyways. They stopped scoring Robby Gordon after he was black flagged in the first NNS race at Montreal, despite being the first to the finish line, so it seems plausible they'd do the same to David. It was just a huge mental lapse for whoever made that call that turned what should have been an epic duel between the best two active drivers at one of their strongest tracks into nothing more than a circus side show gone horribly wrong. 213. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51 I'm not sorry for coming off as being butt-hurt, that race was great in all kinds of weather until only 3 to go? how can this not affect Gordon or even Nascar fans in general? 214. LordLowe posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) JG24FanForever you need to stop taking this so seriously it is just one race. He will have another chance at Victory so stop acting like an imbecile over this situation. Its people like you that never make me fully respect Hendrick Motorsports. 215. Dinger22 posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anon: I'm so happy to hear you consider him in the "1%". Leaving aside the load of crap all that is, Reuitmann isn't even in the top 75% of NASCAR drivers..." Not to turn this into some political pissing match or anything, but Reutimann is very much part of the so-called "1%" richest Americans. Based on the most recent info I could find, his yearly income exceeds $400,000 a year, and his net worth is more than $7 million, which are the cut-offs. Pretty much every major Cup driver is part of the "1%". These guys aren't Mitt Romney rich, but they are rich. Also dang, Allmendinger was so close! I'm starting to feel that win. It's going to happen this year. He just has to keep putting himself in position, eventually one will fall his way. 216. JG24FanForever posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks LordLowe, I didn't realize being passionate was such an imbecilic quality, especially when it's Martinsville one of the races I really look foward to every year,so it's not just another race, i'll leave it at that. 217. Watto posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where's this alleged Keselowski quote where he thinks Reutimann should be suspended? I've looked everywhere and I can't find anything. Link it please 218. Watto posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind, failure on my behalf. I saw the link was already posted. "But, his CC is Tommy Baldwin. They have to let him show up to race weekend, since he owns the 10 (when David is racing) and the 36." Not true, NASCAR has suspended owners in the past... 219. Hallie posted: 04.01.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Third Sprint Cup win ever for car #39, all 3 have been with Ryan Newman as the driver and all 3 have been green-white-checker finishes. 220. Schroeder51 posted: 04.01.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, seriously, calm down. It's just a damn race. It pisses me off too, but it's JUST a damn race. Seriously, man. It is not going to affect your life in anyway at all. Just let it go. 221. 18fan posted: 04.01.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman's win last year at New Hampshire was not a Green-White-Checkered finish, but the other two were races where he didn't lead until the GWC. 222. Red posted: 04.01.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "a better rule would be that no tires can be changed under the GWC" That's exactly how I feel. Having a GWC already disrupts the finish enough, so lets not muddle it further with a bunch of crazy pit strategy shuffling. Honestly, I would like to see all the lapped cars parked at the conclusion of the scheduled distance, and have only the lead lap cars run the extra laps of the GWC. This would protect the lead lap cars from falling way down in the running order in the (likely) event of a GWC crash. The 2010 spring Atlanta race is a good example of why I think this rule is needed. Ultimately, this race was just another example of why the first 90% of the race means nothing in today's NASCAR. And that is a damn shame, because the on-track action today was great, but in the end it was all for naught. The top two finishers were both lapped under green, and gifted another chance by NASCAR's charity rules, while the fastest two cars got screwed by the circus. Kasey Kahne's first season in the #5 car has looked eerily similar to Mark's 2009 in that same car. Lots of speed, absolutely terrible luck to start the year. Mark turned it around and finished 2nd in points, maybe Kasey can do the same. After enduring two years of ridiculous misfortune in the #56, Martin Truex is finally getting some breaks this year. He seems like a genuinely good guy, and I'd love to see him make the chase this year. Surprisingly, Bobby Labonte actually looks serviceable this year. After 2011, I thought he was beyond washed up. 223. Mr X posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate GWC's to begin with, and maybe I'm overreacting right now, but to me a GWC is just a gimmick NASCAR introduced in 2004, 3 attemts is a huge gimmick given in 2010. To me if we have to have them, all that a GWC should be is an attempt to finish the race under green with a bunched up field. Not a strategy fest where the finishing order is based on who pitted or not, and who crashed or didn't in the final 2 laps. The first 497 laps of this race were brilliant in my mind. 224. irony posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never thought I'd see a day when do many people were upset about Jeff Gordon losing. Or mayhem on a short track. 225. Rusty posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was for GWCs when it first came out. You hate seeing races end under caution, but I also think it is lame for races scheduled to be 500 laps end up being 515 laps. I think if a race is scheduled for 200 laps, it ends after 200 laps. I think the best way to get the best of both worlds is to not count caution laps when it gets to under 10 to go. Only green flag laps count, unless a caution comes out with the white flag in the air of course. 226. Jason B. posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last year's attendance for the April Martinsville race = 60,000 This year's attendance for the April Martinsville race = 63,000 My math says that's a 5% increase over last season for a track in the middle of nowhere with high gas prices and a poor economy. Even more evidence that Bristol's attendance decline has to do with the new style of racing there than the poor economy. 227. BON GORDON posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im pretty sure that will be the most dominant race car Jeff has all season. Im sure Gordon has benefited more than a few times on GWCs but I dont like them and I never have....especially after today. I cant imagine how different things would be if they never had them. If the race ends under caution or is a huge 4+ second advantage I dont care. Not every race finish has to be an exciting three wide crashfest. All of this because of races like Talladega in 2004. 228. Cooper posted: 04.01.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This might be bias of me to think....but I think Brad could be the man to beat for the championship... Daytona--top 10 car, pissed it away when he had to pit, and got caught up in a wreck. Phoenix--Had a chance to win but overcooked the turn and lost positions. Vegas--Was running 2nd but had a fuel issue. Bristol--Won Cali- Top Ten car, speeding penalty Martinsville--top 5 car, screwed up and got screwed over. In my opinion, you can make the case that the #2 team is the the team to watch (Other than the #14). Now, Reutimann should not be suspended...If Lepage didn't get suspended after Talladega, than Reutimann needs to be spared. The reason fans always get angry at these types of finishes is because NASCAR doesn't reward anything except for the finishing order. You can lead 499 of 500 laps, cut a tire, and get rewarded for finishing 20th. Of course fans are gonna be butthurt, because there driver got screwed over. (i.e. Gordon/Johnson). Start rewarding drivers for going fast and racing, and stop penalizing drivers for bad luck and stupidness. Gordon should be rewarded for leading half the race. Yet he doesn't and gets penalized for someone elses stupidness. This race has a lot fans upset and rightfully so. Brad needs to punch Mike Helton in the face for his idiocy, not ask for Reutimann to get suspended for his sincereness. 229. Eric posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr.X, GWC actually existed in NASCAR before 2004. GWC before 2004 only existed in the Truck Series. The Trucks has this rule even back in the 1990's. The Truck series even had more than 3 attempts at GWC at least on one occasion. 230. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank goodness Nascar has green-white-checkers! It would have stunk if the race ended short of it's scheduled conclusion. This was the best race of the seaosn and the GWC was certainly part of that. Loved it!!! 231. JP88 posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow I feel bad for Reutimann...he's was gonna cry in his interview. It just happened so what can you do about it? Newman lucked into another won, by smashing the crap out of the 15 and causing that wreck. I was pulling for Dinger or Jr. to get him on the restart...actually I was pulling for Dinger to rough up Newman enough to where Jr. could of gotten by both but oh well, maybe at Texas he can break his losing streak...he is so damn close!!! 232. Mr X posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric I am aware of that and I remember that race, I was just talking about the Cup Series. However I'm just curious why with two laps to go we want to completely box in the two dominant drivers. Jeff and Jimmie had no choice, they couldn't pit, if they do every other lead lap car will stay out, and they'll finish roughly where they wound up finishing anyway. Because of a 130 lap difference in tires we saw a wreck, which wiped out the two dominant cars resulting in the 12th and 14th place finishers leading more laps today then the top 10 combined, doubled, doubled, and doubled again, also two of the top 10 finishers including winner Ryan Newman recieved the free pass, and winner Newman also had a pit road speeding penalty. If we have to have GWC's, they shouldn't be treated as a regular caution, IMO cars should be able to pit for fuel and only if necessary tires, and we'll clean up the mess, bunch up the field and send them off for two quick laps to the finish. I still would've rather seen the race end under caution then the way it ended today, however NASCAR needs to better police the cars that can no longer gain or lose any spots, and get them off the track before any more races are ruined by a car 60 plus laps down. 233. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm still not understanding the Reutimann hate. He was simply doing what his boss and team was telling him to do. It's hard enough to get a ride in this series. David was in no position to go against what Tommy Baldwin was telling him. Being in the top 35 is a big deal, especially for a team like TBR and Danica's upcoming race at Darlington. Keep in mind, he has no type of statistical data in the car, so he doesn't know anything other than what his crew is telling him. He showed some genuine remorse after the race in his radio and television interviews. Everyone needs to move on and forget about it. I can't believe Bowyer isn't getting ridiculed for his move on the GWC. 234. Red posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can lead 499 of 500 laps, cut a tire, and get rewarded for finishing 20th. Of course fans are gonna be butthurt, because there driver got screwed over." For me, it has nothing to do with favorite drivers, and everything to do with fairness. The drivers who run well throughout the ENTIRE race should be rewarded, especially with today's rules that artificially keep everyone on the lead lap. First, I'd like to see much larger bonuses for laps led. Second, I like the idea of not counting caution laps with under 10 to go. This would eliminate the GWC's, and it would curtail all the late-race strategy nonsense, since cars would not be allowed to pit on laps that aren't being scored. To those of you that scream "strategy is part of the race!", I would counter that strategy should be part of the race under natural conditions, but not in the midst of an already gimmicky procedure. The strategy gambles that preceed GWC's are just that - gambles. They're not skill, they're spins of a roulette wheel. The idiocy of today's finish would not have happened if all the drivers were forbidden to pit before the GWC. It would have been settled between Gordon and Johnson, as it should have been. End-race scenarios are always going to be a compromise. The pre-2004 rules that allowed races to end under caution at their scheduled distance were probably the most fair, but also the least exciting. The current format is more exciting, but disgustingly unfair, and often resembles a circus more than a race. The method I suggested above is the best compromise I can think of. 235. 10andJoe posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "And that is a damn shame, because the on-track action today was great, but in the end it was all for naught." The on-track action during the rest of the race was great? Either Fox wasn't showing the great stuff (which honestly wouldn't surprise me), or it was happening while I was falling asleep from the sheer tedious boredom of the first 475 laps... 236. Cooper posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "234. Red posted: 04.02.12 - 12:29 am" Yes. I agree with everything. "235. 10andJoe posted: 04.02.12 - 12:36 am" You missed it then. The 3 way battle between Jimmie, Jeff, Denny was exhilarating. The Jimmie vs. Jeff conclusion. Brad flying through the field. Unlike other races this year, you could easily catch and pass drivers. This needs to be the case for every track and every race. Catch them and pass them. It should be easy, not hard like NASCAR has made it. Best Race of the year IMHO. 237. Cooper posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) More points for leading laps. This has to be done. In the old day, while there were no huge bonuses for leading laps, leading laps and running fast would give you the chance to hold a top five even with trouble like cutting a tire/running out of gas. This day in age, You cut a tire, and you my as well pack up and go home because the 300 laps you just led meant jack. 238. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unlike other races this year, you could easily catch and pass drivers." Who needs that? They should give Martinsville crazy amounts of progressive banking so that you can't pass low at all unless you're WAAAAAAAAY faster. Hey, if theyre stuck side by side, that automatically means the racing is better, right? Using some sarcasm of course... directed towards the people who couldn't understand why Bristol was frustrating to watch, even to those of us who thoroughly enjoy clean and green racing. I wish Reutimann's car wouldnt have broke today so that we wouldve seen the "rightful" duel for the win, so to speak. Not a big fan of finishes like the ones we see today. This is what you green-white-checkers + double file restarts give you. 239. Red posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The on-track action during the rest of the race was great?" Yes it was, IMO. While there may not have been many passes for the lead, there was side-by-side racing throughout the field, plenty of comers-and-goers on long green flag runs, and a few chrome horns for good measure. To me, this race was a throwback to short track racing from the 80's and 90's - just good, hard racing, and no bullshit. Until lap 497, of course. And I have an honest question for you guys: How much impact do you want pit/fuel strategy to have on a race? There seems to be a fundamental disagreement on that issue by the posters on this site. Personally, I enjoy green flag strategies, like short pitting and the gas-n-go near the end of the race. Conversely, I hate caution flag pit strategy, because it shuffles the field way too much, and often cancels out everything that just happened on the previous run. And fuel mileage racing has no place in NASCAR in IMO. If you're interested in saving gas than go putt around in a Prius; real racing is about who can balance a car on a knife's edge and drive faster than his/her competitors. And yes I know that "fuel mileage has always been part of NASCAR" but that doesn't mean I have to endorse it. 240. Sean posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sometimes I think there are common-sense situations when NOT to throw a caution. I would say Reutimann was pretty much out of the racing groove. Nobody was driving where his car was. He was nicely out of the way. If he had been stopped in the center of the racing groove or on the top of the track, sure, but he was on what I would call the apron - a place no one would INTENTIONALLY drive. When you call a caution in that scenario, you're simply ASKING for a more severe wreck by having a green-white-checkered shootout-style finish. When the carnage that ensues is likely to exceed the carnage that would have ensued had there been no caution, caution should be avoided. The cars were spaced well enough that there was NOT going to be a wreck. Along the same lines, I would ALWAYS avoid cautions on plate tracks for debris or for single car spins (especially when the cars are somewhat separated) because the Big One that is likely to occur on the subsequent restart is in my opinion worse than whatever might have happened even if somebody hit the debris and punctured a tire... That's how we should be judging this, especially at the end of a race. Will the damage caused by throwing the caution exceed the damage caused by not throwing it? In this particular instance, I believe the answer was definitely yes, and anyone could have seen that coming especially on a green-white-checkered shootout-style restart with people on all sorts of different pit strategies. By the way, Kurt Busch's first flat tire somewhat early in the race was a FAR more deserving caution. He was close to losing it constantly for a couple laps while trapped on the outside groove. That was a FAR bigger danger to the other cars on the track in my opinion than Reutimann's car parked there outside the racing groove, yet they called no caution. I really don't understand this wave of support for suspending Reutimann or Baldwin. There's no way I see Reutimann stopping on the track on purpose, and that's been done (and ignored) before. Like someone said, Denny Hamlin stopping on the track to give Kyle Busch another shot at victory at Richmond is one good example. I believe Dave Marcis has stopped on the track for Dale Earnhardt before... Nothing happened to either of them. The idea of suspending someone for this seems ridiculous, even more ridiculous than throwing a caution there in the first place (which 99.9% ensured more carnage than would have happened otherwise, and denied a good finish). 241. Sean posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somebody asked about the most races a driver has led the most laps in the modern era. Contrary to what cjs3872, Gordon IS leading that, but not by much. I have a different count for Gordon than JG24Fan (I say 90, he says 91). By my count this statistic is as follows (1972-present) and I believe it's close: Jeff Gordon - 90 Cale Yarborough - 87 Dale Earnhardt - 84 Darrell Waltrip - 69 Rusty Wallace - 67 Bobby Allison - 58 Tony Stewart - 58 Jimmie Johnson - 44 Bill Elliott - 41 Mark Martin - 41 Richard Petty - 41 David Pearson - 39 Buddy Baker - 28 Kyle Busch - 28 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 26 Geoff Bodine - 25 Kurt Busch - 25 Jeff Burton - 24 Harry Gant - 23 Ernie Irvan - 22 Dale Jarrett - 22 Matt Kenseth - 22 Terry Labonte - 21 Denny Hamlin - 20 Ricky Rudd - 20 Davey Allison - 17 Greg Biffle - 17 Neil Bonnett - 16 Kasey Kahne - 14 Sterling Marlin - 14 Benny Parsons - 14 Kevin Harvick - 12 Ryan Newman - 11 Kyle Petty - 11 Tim Richmond - 11 Carl Edwards - 10 Bobby Labonte - 8 Alan Kulwicki - 7 Jeremy Mayfield - 7 Donnie Allison - 5 Ward Burton - 5 Clint Bowyer - 4 A.J. Foyt - 4 Bobby Hamilton - 4 Juan Pablo Montoya - 4 Joe Nemechek - 4 Ken Schrader - 4 Mike Skinner - 4 Robby Gordon - 3 Bobby Isaac - 3 Jamie McMurray - 3 Steve Park - 3 Morgan Shepherd - 3 Martin Truex, Jr. - 3 Michael Waltrip - 3 Brett Bodine - 2 Ricky Craven - 2 Dave Marcis - 2 Lennie Pond - 2 Joe Ruttman - 2 Elliott Sadler - 2 Brian Vickers - 2 John Andretti - 1 Johnny Benson, Jr. - 1 Dick Brooks - 1 Mark Donohue - 1 James Hylton - 1 Kenny Irwin, Jr. - 1 Brad Keselowski - 1 Rick Mast - 1 Ted Musgrave - 1 Jerry Nadeau - 1 David Reutimann - 1 Greg Sacks - 1 Lake Speed - 1 Jimmy Spencer - 1 Hut Stricklin - 1 Rick Wilson - 1 242. Sean posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Contrary to what cjs3872 said*, 243. Sean posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and one more point about getting cars off the track: NASCAR could be tougher about allowing cars like Kahne's and Reutimann's back on the track after they've already had issues, but the only way you're going to prevent it is to FIX THE POINTS SYSTEM. It's horrible, has always been horrible, and seemingly will always be horrible. There should not be gaps between the lower positions, period. This is how a points system is structured: Formula One - 1st - 25, 2nd - 18, 3rd - 15, 4th - 12, 5th - 10, 6th - 8, 7th - 6, 8th - 4, 9th - 2, 10th - 1, 11th-24th - 0 CART - 1st - 20, 2nd - 16, 3rd - 14, 4th - 12, 5th - 10, 6th - 8, 7th - 6, 9th - 4, 10th - 3, 11th - 2, 12th - 1, 13th-33rd - 0 IRL/IndyCar - 1st - 50, 2nd - 40, 3rd - 35, 4th - 32, 5th - 30, 6th - 28, 7th - 26, 8th - 24, 9th - 22, 10th - 20, 11th - 19, 12th - 18, 13th - 17, 14th - 16, 15th - 15, 16th - 14, 17th - 13, 18th-24th - 12, 25th-33rd - 10 Say what you will about the quality of these racing series' products, but the points systems are all FAR superior. You very rarely see people in the open wheel series coming back a zillion laps down because there is no incentive to do so when there is no gap between the lower positions. I'm personally an advocate of only the top 20 or top 25 scoring points, but it might be hard to attract a 43-car field to every race, so I'd settle for 26th-43rd scoring the SAME points. Do that and you will NEVER see these cars coming back 50 or 100 laps down, one of the least professional things about NASCAR in my opinion. It would also soften the blow of a DNF so the championship would come down to luck somewhat less. I'm also in favor of larger gaps between 1st through 6th rather than ALL positions from 2nd-43rd being separated by 1 point each, which I think is very stupid. The IndyCar points system is a very good model except for the two things I find stupid (bonus points for Indy 500 qualifying and half points for ). Also, let's get rid of the bonus point for leading a single lap - having bonus points for leading the most laps is enough and maybe we'll see less of this garbage with teammates pulling over for each other to help each other's championship positions... THAT is never going to happen because NASCAR wants to boast an inflated number of lead changes in each race, but we can dream... 244. Sean posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) half points for DNSs)* Man, I have been failing to finish my clauses WAY too often lately here... 245. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was a nice crowd there. I sure wish I was there. But the fact is Martinsville is a hidden gem. The atmosphere is just cool. You are riding down a four lane highway in the mountains, and suddenly in the distance you see grandstands. You walk through a neighborhood to get there. And the race itself is fun as hell. You are right on top of it. Everything is right there in front of you. With Bristol falling out of favor, people are making the trek instead to Martinsville. Yeah, it was once packed like every other track, and it has probably the smallest seating capacity of any oval, but I am glad to see it is being appreciated. 246. Spen posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I certainly don't think Reutimann should be suspended. But he probably should lose his ride. Failure to properly convey the car's condition to the team + failure to keep the car in the top-35 (the only reason the team runs the full schedule in the first place) + embarassing the team on national television = unemployment. The fact that he's trailing a guy who's nearly a decade older than him suggests to me that he's not one of those drivers who can seriously compete at 42. And to whoever said that it's MWR's fault for firing him, that was his own fault for underperforming all year. Judging from how well Mark Martin and even Brian Vickers have been doing in the same car, with the same crew chief, it's obvious that "the franchise" was holding back MWR, not the other way around. "Heck u know what's coming anyway...36 will exchange points with the 10 to make sure they are good anyway...Poor Blaney". I certainly hope NASCAR doesn't allow that. Back in '08, when Petty Enterprises tried to switch the #43 and #45's owner points to keep Kyle in the field, NASCAR stated that point swaps could not occur after we start using the current year's points. If they wouldn't make an exception for King Richard, I'd hope that they wouldn't make an exception for Danica. They probably will, though. Or they *could* hire Bill Elliott to drive the #10 in non-Danica races... (I can dream, can't I?) 247. 10andJoe posted: 04.02.2012 - 2:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sometimes I think there are common-sense situations when NOT to throw a caution. I would say Reutimann was pretty much out of the racing groove. Nobody was driving where his car was. He was nicely out of the way. If he had been stopped in the center of the racing groove or on the top of the track, sure, but he was on what I would call the apron - a place no one would INTENTIONALLY drive." Er...key word there is INTENTIONALLY. Did you read the comments earlier in the thread about the 1971 Indy 500? A car stopped ANYWHERE on an oval is a severe safety hazard. "Back in '08, when Petty Enterprises tried to switch the #43 and #45's owner points to keep Kyle in the field, NASCAR stated that point swaps could not occur after we start using the current year's points." Unfortunatly, there have already been TWO "post-start-of-season swaps" so far this year: - After Daytona, the 32 "became" the 6 to get its owner points. This is the more obvious of the two as the "original" 32 became the 132 in the official standings. - also after Daytona, the 30 "adopted" the 71's owner points in hopes that the 33 or 6 would drop out (the 71 was next in line to 'move up'). 248. LordLowe posted: 04.02.2012 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well I think there May have been a reason for why the 10 kept going even though it wasn't going to make it and it was all because they wanted to pick up points for Princess Danica when they head out to Darlington in May. 249. Spen posted: 04.02.2012 - 4:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) While it was after the season started, it was while we were still setting the field by 2011 owner points. Kind of a grey area. Stremme's situation was pretty straightfoward. He bought the points of a team that no longer existed, to make sure he'd make the field in case of a qualifying rainout. Sure, the timing was a little wonky, but it was still just a case of buying last years points. The 32/6 deal was murkier. But I suppose it could be argued that as the #6 was no longer in operation, they were no longer entitled to those points. Kind of like when Paul Menard's team bought the #14's points in '07 after the #14 went out of business during the DEI/Ginn merger. So the way I read it, the only way the #10 could get the points of the #36 is if the #36 shuts down completely. Of course, this is NASCAR we're talking about, so who's to say they'll follow their own precidents? Sean: I never really liked the idea of not counting points past a certain point. Sure, it works okay in open-wheel, but they've got less cars to start with. And the 2011 TM MasterCup season pretty well demonstrated why an F1-style point system wouldn't work well in a stock car series. (When a driver can run only 11 out of 20 races and still be in serious championship contention, it means something's seriously wrong with the point system. (Or with the other 42 drivers.)) My personal idea of 'fixing' the point system included having a ten point gap between the first three posistions, a five point drop from 4th-6th, four points down to 10th, three points from 11th to 20th, a two point drop from 21st-30th, and a one point drop from 31st on. It makes a bad day less punishing, while making posistions more valued as you move up the field. Plus giving bonus points based on how much of the race you led. And a pole bonus. (And no bonus points for leading under caution, as caution laps would not count towards the final lap total.) On a completely different note, Tony Raines' qualifying time was disallowed, resulting in a DNQ. While I'm sure it's happened at other times since then, the last time I can recall a car failing post-qualifying examination was Juan Pablo Montoya at Kansas in 2007. In his case, he merely started the race at the rear of the field. Now to me, this illustrates a fundamental unfairness arising from the top-35 rule. If a team that is 36th in points cheats during qualifying, they miss the show. If a team 34th in points cheats in qualifying, they get to start at the back. To me, that is simply wrong. You were caught cheating, so your lap doesn't count. If your lap didn't count, you've lost your right to a guarenteed starting spot in this race. But given the complete lack of uproar about this, I guess I'm in the minority. 250. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.02.2012 - 5:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Personally, I enjoy green flag strategies, like short pitting and the gas-n-go near the end of the race. Conversely, I hate caution flag pit strategy, because it shuffles the field way too much, and often cancels out everything that just happened on the previous run." I agree with this completely. A few races back, a poster here commented on how he doesn't like the way that so many races today are decided by strategy and specifically mentioned that he felt like NASCAR was becoming similar to Formula 1, in that regard. Well, I have to disagree with that part, because F1 strategy can really make for an exciting race, as different cars make their speed in different ways, it's essential for them to try different tactics to gain an advantage on the competition. I absolutely love it when this happens in NASCAR - unfortunately, it's a very, very, VERY rare thing indeed. The first Texas race last year was a perfect example - Matt Kenseth had the fastest car all race long and there was no way anyone was going to beat him on outright speed...except Darian Grubb put Tony Stewart onto an alternate strategy that would have seen the #14 car in victory lane - but then Tony sped on pit road! Now that is a strategy race that is genuinely exciting and I just wish Stewart didn't speed in the pits, because that would have been an AWESOME finish. But yeah, tossing up between taking four, two, or no tyres - that's not strategy and it isn't exciting either. 251. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.02.2012 - 5:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sometimes I think there are common-sense situations when NOT to throw a caution. I would say Reutimann was pretty much out of the racing groove. Nobody was driving where his car was. He was nicely out of the way. If he had been stopped in the center of the racing groove or on the top of the track, sure, but he was on what I would call the apron - a place no one would INTENTIONALLY drive." I also agree with this - and the rest of the post - 100%. I think they could have let the race continue with Reutimann's car parked where it was, BUT, to do that, there are first a number of safety regulations that would have to introduce. The most important of those being, how do you keep the drivers from doing something stupid and colliding with the parked car? The only answer is - a local yellow. I believe they CAN do it....it would take a hell of a lot of work to get right, but I think it can be done. As for them actually doing it, well, I don't expect it to happen. The general rule of a local yellow is "no passing", but with the nature of a track like Martinsville, perhaps a rule such as "no contact" would be more appropriate. Once past the stationary car, everything is back to normal, but going past it, they need to be on their best behaviour. Now of course, in terms of racing, this isn't ideal, but I still think that would have made for a better - and safer finish than the one we got today. I'd also like to stress, to those who don't like this idea, that it is something that you would ONLY implement in situations where there isn't enough time to remove the car and restart the race. If the #10 were to have parked up anywhere between lap 1 and 490, I'd be saying throw the full course caution right away. But when you're that close to the finish, I think letting the race continue is the better bet - both for the sake of racing AND safety. "Er...key word there is INTENTIONALLY. Did you read the comments earlier in the thread about the 1971 Indy 500? A car stopped ANYWHERE on an oval is a severe safety hazard." What we're suggesting is very, VERY different to what played out in the 1971 Indy 500. There are so many things that they did wrong there that you really can't compare that situation to the modern day. For starters, there was absolutely no reason for them not to clear those cars off the track. They had plenty of time to do so, but didn't. Second, the race continued under full green conditions, which isn't the right thing to be doing with a parked car on the track. What we're suggesting would never allow a crash like that to happen. 252. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Failure to properly convey the car's condition to the team + failure to keep the car in the top-35 (the only reason the team runs the full schedule in the first place) + embarassing the team on national television = unemployment. The fact that he's trailing a guy who's nearly a decade older than him suggests to me that he's not one of those drivers who can seriously compete at 42." Truly ridiculous. First off, were you even listening to the radio? Aside from him telling the guys the car was broken, the guy was like 2 seconds off the pace at a 19 second track, the team KNEW the car was screwed, and he was TOLD TO STAY OUT THERE. David should be fired for Tommy telling him to run it until the finish and then the car stalling out randomly at the most inopportune time on the track? Are you kidding me? All David was doing was following team orders. Maybe the car would still be top 35 if they didnt blow up at Las Vegas while running top 20 and if the SHR 10 car wasnt wrecked at Daytona. Reutimann has been better than his teammate Blaney in the 36 every single week. "And to whoever said that it's MWR's fault for firing him, that was his own fault for underperforming all year. Judging from how well Mark Martin and even Brian Vickers have been doing in the same car, with the same crew chief, it's obvious that "the franchise" was holding back MWR, not the other way around." Clearly youre somebody who loves to make opinions without actually knowing the facts. In case you havent noticed, it's not the "same car". Rodney Childers has been very open about how the 55 cars that have shown up week after week are brand new race cars. EVERY ONE OF THEM. Much like how Jamie McMurray got the chance to run new cars in 2010 after Truex was stuck with mostly old chassis in 2009. In case you didnt notice, Reutimann outperformed Truex in 2010 and won straight up at Chicago... the only driver to win for MWR. I'm a big Truex fan and I think he's due, but last year was clearly a rough year for Reutimann, who has been the best MWR had every year up until that year. Reutimann finished 16th and 18th in points in 09 and 2010, and Truex's years so far are 22nd and 18th. This year I predict MWR will be in better shape, but you have to realize that they now have a bunch of new assets. Scott Miller came over from RCR and provided an IMMEDIATE turn around for the team. The addition of Brian Pattie among others has provided them a noticeable turnaround. Reutimann was THE guy at MWR until last year, and don't pretend that this year's 55 is even close to how the 00 was last year. To pretend that all those years that Reutimann single handedly brought MWR to competitiveness didn't happen would be a joke. 253. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) also it is absolutely ridiculous to say that Reutimann's car was in a spot that they couldve stayed green. Local yellows at a half mile oval, like really? Cluster---k waiting to happen. Someone gets turned, they hit a stationary car. NASCAR would look like a bunch of idiots who have no care in the world for safety. You can't have a car sitting on the track in the braking zone 15 feet to the left of the primary racing groove like 30 feet before the bottom of the track where everyone is on corner entry. http://www.hostingbytes.us/images/3/6912567.jpg this screenshot is from literally 2 seconds after the moment of caution. You're telling me that people should race for the win with a car THERE? You can't just throw subjectivity in the mix and pretend that people should just be on their best behavior for half a lap when itll be abused to no end. If it would result in a caution with 80 to go, it should probably result in a caution with 5 to go. You cant have stalled vehicles on the track and just let em race because it can and will result in injuries at any number of tracks NASCAR visits and shouldn't even be on their radar. 254. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did you guys see where Reutimann's car was? hostingbytes.us/images/3/6912567.jpg they should figure out local yellows for that or just keep it green? seriously? you cant have stationary cars on the racetrack. accidents happen and injuries can happen if and when an accident breaks out and that stationary car is hit. maybe the risk factor isnt all that high at martinsville, but you need to be consistent across the board and get the car off the track in the interest of safety. it would be downright STUPID to not get the car off the track. you're in a box to not let cars sit in harm's way when they're stalled. what are you gonna do when a stalled car gets hit and someone gets hurt, all in the interest of keeping it green? absolutely pathetically stupid. that is a HIGH RISK situation. I'm glad NASCAR has enough common sense to get a car off the track that's in the braking zone, 2 lanes to the left of the primary racing groove, approximately 30 ft behind where everybody is already on the bottom on the concrete... 255. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) GWC + double file restarts seems to make more problems then simply the caution being thrown itself. if you wanna go after something, go after that... 256. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did you guys see where Reutimann's car was?" Yeah, in what is quite possibly the safest spot it could have been in. And again, you seem to have very little to no understanding of how a local yellow flag works. Now, I know it's never been done in NASCAR before, but I would still rather they try instead of leaving us with this mess. You mention how bad it would be if an accident were to occur? If you do your local yellows properly, there won't be one. 257. MarkMartinFan posted: 04.02.2012 - 7:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love how Jimmie Johnson was quick to blame Clint Bowyer for the wreck. Jeff at least listened to Bowyer's side of the story. Ryan Newman drove Clint into the corner harder than he wanted to go. Jimmie should know about that since thats the way Kevin Harvick beat him in Fontana last year. The finish was bullshit. 258. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 7:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah, in what is quite possibly the safest spot it could have been in." Not even CLOSE to the safesty spot it could have been in on the racetrack. There's literally no debate to be made. hostingbytes.us/images/3/6912567.jpg THAT'S the safest spot? Are you joking? Local yellows will not work whatsoever on many ovals, and will work poorly on others.. and believe me when I say that I've been watching F1 and a variety of other motorsports for about 20+ years and I have a pretty good idea of how local yellows work and how itd be downright ridiculous to think that it would make sense in NASCAR race situations. I'm not some Joe Schmo redneck who sticks with NASCAR and keeps my head in the sand with everything else. I LOVE road course racing. Yesterday's race would've been fine withpit the GWC finishes or double file restarts. A local yellow on a track where the pole is a 19.4.... good luck getting them to race on one end of the track and yet manage to be concerned with a local yellow on the other. It'll come down to subjectivity and people will cheat the system successfully. It becomes even more of a joke to think about on bigger tracks. The negative safety ramifications are not worth the fans not wanting a yellow. It's NOT a safer alternative. 259. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 7:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) without* the GWC 260. Gordon24 posted: 04.02.2012 - 7:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon basically won it, but that crash messed him up. 261. cjs3872 posted: 04.02.2012 - 8:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean (#241-242), thanks for clarifying that for me, as I proved to be dead wrong about that. I thought that as dominant as Earnhardt, Waltrip, and Yarborough were during their heydays that they would have had many more dominant runs than they did. So that's yet another modern-era record that Gordon has, along with wins, poles, and top 5 finishes. Even more reason why he's the greatest modern NASCAR driver ever. But I'm not certain he wouldn't have won if not for the Reutimann caution. I still think that Jimmie Johnson would have won. He would have either held Gordon off, or even used the "bump and run" to get back by him on the last lap. And the comments about how the race was officiated prove my point that NASCAR needs to get someone like Wally Dallenbach, Jr. in there to straighten these kinds of things out. NASCAR's had race officiating problems for years, and it needs someone that actually knows more about the sport to help officiate the race, which is what Gary Nelson had whe he was competition director, but what John Darby lacks. However, I disagree with those that say that all pitting must cease during a GWC. Remember that after the incident on the first GWC attempt, Jeff Gordon ran out of gas, and the new rules prohibit him from being pushed by a teammte, which actually add a couple of extra caution laps prior to the second GWC attempt. Had there been no pitting allowed inside the final 5-10 laps, none of the leaders would have had the fuel to finish the race, as they had previously pitted prior to lap 360. And Sean, I don't mind one point-per position from about 10th or 11th on back. After all, the old system used prior to last year had the same points per position separation from 11th through the balance of the field. The problem I have with the points system is the lack of weight given to the top finishers. They need to do something with the broken down cars many laps down, because that's the second time in the last four short track races that such a car has affected the outcome of a race, though what happened with Reutimann was not nearly as bad as the situation with Paul Menard was at Richmond, when he was, in code, told to by his team to intentionally bring out a caution late to help his teammate Kevin Harvick (which definately cost Jeff Gordon a victory). The reason NASCAR has this policy of letting broken down cars continue goes back to when only 12-15 cars finished a 500 mile race because of the lack of reliability, but that's not been an issue for many years, so NASCAR can now get rid of these broken down cars trying to finish the race and keep them in the garage area where they belong. 262. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.02.2012 - 8:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anon post #258: I mention that as being the safest part of the track as it's where the drivers begin their turn in to hit the apex of the corner. At that point, they're out wide and swinging in, which means that it's not possible for a car to end up on that piece of road without help from another. And you're right, for that to happen, they would only be racing on 3/4 of the track and getting that worked out would indisputably be a mammoth task. But I would still rather the effort be made, because it's not impossible. Don't get me wrong here, I'm just throwing about ideas and opinions in hope of a good debate. Personally, I think that all things considered, NASCAR did nothing wrong today. They followed the rules they have set and whilst I may prefer them to at least consider a re-evaluation of certain policies, I don't necessarily disagree with them. 263. Anonymous posted: 04.02.2012 - 8:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) word. and i shouldve been nicer in my responses cause i dont know why i was so heated. i hear what youre saying. forgot to type my name in apparently lol 264. Rusty posted: 04.02.2012 - 9:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to say about Bowyer, I totally respect and approve of what he did. We all complain that drivers aren't agressive enough, are too willing to settle for the good points and day and not go for wins. Which is why NASCAR has changed the points system to reward winning, and this is exactly what we were looking for. Bowyer had a chance to make a quick move and steal a win, I do NOT blame him for making a bold move. I actually think all three could've made it through there if Jimmie didn't move down on Jeff when they were 3 wide, perhaps he didn't realize Clint was there. But, I LOVED seeing someone actually go for the win there. There is also a lot of talk about the 24 and 48 having the best cars all day but nothing to show for it, but ya know what, that is racing. Having the best car entitles you to NOTHING. What do you want? To have everyone run 100 laps and NASCAR reward the trophy to who they think they had the best car? The best car doesn't always win and hey, a lot of they it doesn't win. If Kyle Busch had dominated this race and lost like this, people would be laughing and calling him a chocker. Jeff and Jimmie had won their fair share of races without having the best car. As a Kurt Busch fan, I flat out remember Bristol a few years back where Kurt SMOKED the field, but on a late restart Jimmie ended up getting lucky with the now preferred outside lane (thank you again for ruining Bristol, Bruton) and was able to get out in clean air and get the win. It happens. 265. ch posted: 04.02.2012 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner of the 33 should be Joe Falk ... He purchased the team earlier this week. 266. cjs3872 posted: 04.02.2012 - 10:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty, there's a difference betwen being aggressive and being stupid, and Bowyer was stupid on that move. That move he made was doomed from the moment he started making it. Bowyer could have waited to make his move because of his 140 lap fresher tires. Had he been more patient, he would have gotten to second by Jimmie Johnson off the second turn and probably would have passed Jeff Gordon on the last lap, and of course, Gordon might not have even made it to the finish, considering he ran out of fuel during the following caution period. The turns at Martinsville are barely wide enough for two cars, much less trying to put three there. Three abreast at Martinsville is certain disaster, which is what happened. It's one trying to be bold, but it's another to be completely stupid. Might Richard Childress have known something the rest of us didn't when he let Bowyer go? 267. Kyle posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) lack of performance or over-aggressive driving had nothing to do with childress not resigning bowyer. bowyer and childress are still close friends, and 5-hour energy was willing to do 22 races with bowyer and whatever team he ended up on. childress didn't resign him because he needs two seats open for austin and ty. 268. cjs3872 posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) While overaggressive driving may not have had anything to do with Childress rehiring Bowyer, not winning enough races may have had something to do with that. In six years at Childress, Bowyer only won five races with two of those coming at Talladega, another being giftwrapped by Kyle Busch and Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and still another (2010 fall race at Loudon) overshadowed by a rule infraction that cost Bowyer nearly all the points he got from that win. While I'm not saying Bowyer underperformed, he just didn't win enough races, something that even dogged him in the Nationwide Series when he raced for Childress there. Remember that in his championship season in the Nationwide Series, he only won one race, so Bowyer has never been a big winner in NASCAR. That may be why Childress elected not to rehire him, and part of winning races is to make the right moves at the right time, something Bowyer still hasn't mastered, though he did a good job of that in last fall's Talladega race. 269. RaceFanX posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ch, the #33 was still owned by Richard Childress in this race. While Joe Falk bought the team earlier in the week it had already been entered by Childress for this race and because of complications officially remained a Childress car. Interesting to see Hermie and Elliott Sadler (who ran the Daytona 500) both make starts in the same car during the same season. Richard's #29 with Kevin Harvick had one of the most bizarre special paint jobs I've ever seen for this race as Budweiser fielded a white car celebrating the end of Prohibition. While that did indeed put Bud back on the shelves, thus the "Budweiser is Back" paint job, it also took place in December 1933 and it's rare for any race team to run a paint job celebrating Depression-era historical events. Bud's marketing campaign at the time of this race did focus heavily on the beer through the years though. 270. Kyle posted: 04.02.2012 - 12:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) if you look closily at harvick's car, it was suppossed to look like a newspaper article. black letters on white paint is suppossed to look like a newspaper with the article name "Budweiser is Back!". 271. Eric posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, You are partly wrong on why Clint isn't with RCR. What I gathered from what from what I read in February by read Athlonsports, it was a money issue. Media members said that Clint Bowyer sold out and chased the money to Michael Waltrip Racing based on what Athlonsports. com reported. Based on what Athlonsports mentioned, it is safe to assume that Richard thought Clint was asking too much based on what he is getting out of Clint besides trying to get sponsorship money for all 36 races. That means you are right in terms of performance, but only based what Clint was asking for in money. That meant he wanted to be paid at level that driver that accomplished more in their NASCAR Career gets paid. The 2nd thing if this wasn't about money, Why Clint wanted to go to Red Bull Racing before their announcement about leaving NASCAR before he talked Richard about trying to resign with RCR? 272. Scott B posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't believe people are actually suggesting the race should have continued in any form with a car stopped on the apron. May I remind y'all of JPM's crash into a jet dryer under caution at Daytona? The odds of someone hitting a car on the apron of Martinsville in the last two laps of a race are far higher that the odds on the Montoya incident. This is racing, weird stuff happens. 273. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.02.2012 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "In case you havent noticed, it's not the "same car". Rodney Childers has been very open about how the 55 cars that have shown up week after week are brand new race cars. EVERY ONE OF THEM." One other thing to realize, JGR (the second best organization out there) merged their engine shop with TRD (where MWR gets their motors) and began a more comprehensive information sharing system with TRD for the rest of Toyota's Cup teams. That is the biggest thing. If Reut were still there he would be doing exactly what the #55 car is doing, most likely better than Brian in his races. "Even more reason why he's the greatest modern NASCAR driver ever." 7 > 4 274. Mike posted: 04.02.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Local cautions on ovals? Try a local caution at Talladega sometime. Let me know how that works out for you. 275. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.02.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I never really liked the idea of not counting points past a certain point. Sure, it works okay in open-wheel, but they've got less cars to start with. And the 2011 TM MasterCup season pretty well demonstrated why an F1-style point system wouldn't work well in a stock car series. (When a driver can run only 11 out of 20 races and still be in serious championship contention, it means something's seriously wrong with the point system. (Or with the other 42 drivers.))" I also questioned why A.Rainsford was in the Title hunt when she moved to the V8 Champcar series and she was no longer in TMMC. TMMC is a mix of NASCAR and F1 (as someone who did a rant on it) "its F1 rules with stock car bodies." I like the TMMC series but i also see it as an insult to NASCAR because NASCAR isn't "world traveling, more RC going, more foreign driver having" racing series. That is just who i see it. I'm not even going to get started on the site where you can find it.................... 276. ii posted: 04.02.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "ch, the #33 was still owned by Richard Childress in this race. While Joe Falk bought the team earlier in the week it had already been entered by Childress for this race and because of complications officially remained a Childress car. Interesting to see Hermie and Elliott Sadler (who ran the Daytona 500) both make starts in the same car during the same season." That is true. Joe Faulk said that he had interest in the team, but he hasn't bought it yet. Clint Bowyer lost his ride because Cheerios was not going to sponsor Clint Bowyer in all 36 races this year, and they never found another sponsor before Clint signed with MWR late last year. 277. Kyle posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) actually bowyer was approached by 5-hour energy and they said "we'll do 22 races with you. now go find a team" and childress was the first team he approached. they said they couldn't sign him because bowyer wanted too much moeny, but there's no way waltrip could pay more than what childress could. pop-pop is just ensuring austin and ty have reserved spots for them in the cup series. 278. Talon64 posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It took me until today to check out for myself what the #10 had to gain or lose by staying out. Which was nothing. Which means the responsibility for the pointless caution is on the #10 team and not Reutimann. If the team's telling the driver that they need to finish to stay top 35, then the driver has to do it. He's not privy to that information, although apparently the team wasn't privy to it either because they kept him out like idiots. I know TBR isn't exactly a top flight organization, but they're still a professional race team that should be on top of these sorts of things. Staying out and bringing out the caution nearly cost them another position to the #18, which would've put them 1 more point away from 35th. In fact I almost wish it had so it would've really brought the point home. There shouldn't be any suspensions for this, but it's a shame that it ruined a great battle between Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. Still, at least Jeff can be happy that he had Jimmie beat. He just needs to luck to go along with the good runs. Like Kasey Kahne. His start to his HMS career is now even worse than Mark Martins was in 2009. It was the first 4 races that Mark just had no luck whatsoever, but now it's 6 races for Kahne. At least Kahne has the benefit of the wild card Chase spots so if he can win a couple of races and crack the top 20 in points then he'll be in. 279. myothercarisanM535i posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Local cautions on ovals? Try a local caution at Talladega sometime. Let me know how that works out for you. " 2 laps to go at Talladega. It's been a long green flag run, so the field is single file for the most part. A car runs out of fuel coming out of turn two, pulls down to the apron and parks it right up against the wall. The driver quickly jumps out and makes it to safety behind the fence before the pack comes around again. White flag is in the air and NASCAR warns drivers and crew cheifs that there is to be NO BUMP DRAFTING from turn three until when the pass the stationary car. Why is this so difficult to imagine? Yes, a lot of work would be needed in terms of proper planning, regulations and open dialogue between drivers, teams and NASCAR, but it's not impossible at all. 280. 10andJoe posted: 04.02.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "White flag is in the air and NASCAR warns drivers and crew cheifs that there is to be NO BUMP DRAFTING from turn three until when the pass the stationary car. Why is this so difficult to imagine" ... Because it WOULD NOT HAPPEN. Let's see...it's the last lap and you're telling teams NOT TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN? No. No thanks. That would be a clown circus, not NASCAR. How about we just accept that Stuff Happens, that the rules aren't, and never will be, perfect, in fact they could be a lot worse (as in the above suggestions...), and that, yeah, Jeff Gordon didn't get his reward for leading all those laps, but stuff like that has happened since 1949. That's Racin'. ======= One thing I MIGHT suggest though, is to do away with the double file restart when there's less than 10 laps to go. ======= As for the #33, Falk HAS bought the team, it just wasn't 'handed over', as it were, until after Martinsville. 281. Talon64 posted: 04.02.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman picks up his 16th career Sprint Cup Series victory, tying him with Greg Biffle for 48th on the all time wins list and 16th amongst active drivers. It's his 3rd consecutive season with a win, and 3rd in 4 seasons with Stewart Haas Racing. It's his 3rd top 10 in the last 4 races. SHR drivers Tony Stewart and Newman are 1-2 in points scored over that span, and Hendrick cars are 1-2-3-4 if you include Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Jimmie Johnson. It's Newman's first win at Martinsville and just his 2nd career short track win (Richmond back in 2003), even though short tracks are his best as far as average finish (14.0) and has a 10.2 avg fin on them since 2009 (14 top 10's in 20 starts). It's his 5th top 10 in his last 7 Martinsville starts (11.1 avg fin) and his 11th in 21 career starts there (13.7 avg fin). Newman also picked up his 40th career podium finish, tying him with Davey Allison for 52nd all time. AJ Allmendinger finishes a career-best 2nd, just his 5th top 5 in 158 career Cup starts and his first top 10 with Penske Racing. It's his first runner-up finish in any NASCAR race since the Truck race at Charlotte in 2007. It's his first top 5 in 30 career short track starts and his 2nd top 10 in 10 Martinsville starts. Allmendinger's the 234th different driver to record a runner-up finish in Cup. Dale Earnhardt Jr. has back-to-back top 5 finishes for the first time since September 2008 at Richmond and Loudon, and B-2-B top 3 finishes since March 2008 at Las Vegas and Atlanta. He's now just 2 top 5's away from 100 for his career. Martinsville is the first track that Dale Jr.'s reached 10 top 5's at (25 starts, 12.6 avg fin); he has 4 straight top 10's there and an 8.8 avg fin in 9 Martinsville starts with HMS. Matt Kenseth picks up his 16th top 5 in 74 career short track starts, but with 10 of them coming at Bristol; this is his 6 in 49 starts between Richmond and Martinsville. It's Kenseth's first top 5 at Martinsville since 2007, and just his 8th top 10 in 25 starts there (16.0 avg fin). After needing 14 races to reach 4 top 10's in 2011 and not having a top 5 until the 22nd race of the season, Martin Truex Jr. has 2 top 5's and 4 top 10's in the first 6 races of 2012. It's by far his best start to a season in his career; T-3rd in points, previous best at this point was 13th in 2008. It's Truex Jr.'s 2nd top 5 in 13 Martinsville starts (21.4 avg fin) but his 2nd straight top 10. Denny Hamlin picks up his first top 10 in 4 races, after starting the season with back-to-back top 5's including a win. Since his last Martinsville win in the fall of 2010, Hamlin hasn't finished better than 5th in his last 3 starts despite leading 31+ laps in each and 178 total. Tony Stewart gets his first top 10 of 2012 that isn't a win. It's his 2nd straight top 10 at Martinsville, after an average finish of just 28th in his previous 3 starts there (15 top 10's in 27 career starts, 13.2 avg fin). It's also his 40th top 10 in 80 career short track starts. Stewart Haas Racing has won 3 of the first 6 races of the season, and 8 of 16 races dating back to last season. Aric Almirola gets his first top 10 in the #43 RPM car, and just his 3rd in 41 career Cup starts. It's his first since finishing 4th for RPM in the #9 at Homestead in 2010. Martinsville is the track he's had the most Cup starts at, 7, and he picks up his first top 10 there (28.5 in 6 non-S&P starts). 2 of his 3 top 10's have come at short tracks. Brad Keselowski picks up his 2nd top 10 in 5 Martinsville starts; it's his 5th best track in Cup (not counting Kentucky) based on average finish at 13.4, despite 9th being his best finish there. Clint Bowyer has 3 top 10's in the last 4 races, and picks up his 7th top 10 in 13 Martinsville starts (14.7 avg fin, just 1 top 5). Bowyer needs just 2 more top 10's to reach 100 for his career. At one point Jimmie Johnson had 17 straight top 10's at Martinsville. Now he's finished outside of the top 10 in 2 of the last 3 races (8.3 avg fin, 238 laps led despite that). With his 112 laps led in the race, Johnson moved back ahead of Tony Stewart for 12th all time in laps led. As for Jeff Gordon, he had 15 straight top 10's at Martinsville before finishing outside the top 10 in 2 of the last 4 races (10.5 avg fin, 534 laps including 328 in this race alone). He's now led 300+ laps in a race 8 times in his career, his most recent before this race being 313 at Martinsville in 2003. 282. Budmoorefan posted: 04.02.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was Tommy Baldwin's call to leave Reuti out there. I dont see this pairing hanging together much longer. Baldwin can't afford two entries and will go back to Blaney only. 283. Talk4Tar posted: 04.02.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From what I saw, a fairly tame Martinsville race. I would have no issue with this, were it not also a painfully boring race, other than the last two restarts. Very disappointed, as Martinsville usually provides an action-filled race. 284. Rog24 posted: 04.02.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2 laps to go at Talladega. It's been a long green flag run, so the field is single file for the most part. A car runs out of fuel coming out of turn two, pulls down to the apron and parks it right up against the wall. The driver quickly jumps out and makes it to safety behind the fence before the pack comes around again." Odds are, he gets out of the car as the pack is coming back around and approaching. By the time he gets the car stopped, takes off enough safety equipment to get out of the car, and starts trying to get over/around the wall, itll probably be a lap gone by if not more. A situation like that becomes even more difficult at a 1.5 mile track. It's practically impossible. People should never be walking around the apron during green conditions considering the field spreads out IMO. Nowadays if a car has a mechanical failure, they usually can pull behind a wall on the backstretch at most tracks and the race can stay green. I think local yellows with the type of racing NASCAR has just isn't realistic. I also think Reutimann's car was in harm's way yesterday and not as out of the way as people have represented. Jeff Gordon was 15 feet away from the car taking a normal line and completely in control, so if anything happens at all (which it will/does), the 10 car gets hit. 285. Spen posted: 04.02.2012 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Truth: "Clearly youre somebody who loves to make opinions without actually knowing the facts." Wow. In my eight years at this site, that's the first time anyone's called me out on anything like that before. Perhaps my opinion was worded somewhat too harshly. I'm sorry for that. Now to your other points: "Truly ridiculous. First off, were you even listening to the radio? Aside from him telling the guys the car was broken, the guy was like 2 seconds off the pace at a 19 second track, the team KNEW the car was screwed, and he was TOLD TO STAY OUT THERE. David should be fired for Tommy telling him to run it until the finish and then the car stalling out randomly at the most inopportune time on the track? Are you kidding me? All David was doing was following team orders." Okay, I'll take away the remark about him not giving the team proper information. And no, I did not hear his radio communication. Thank you for sharing that. "Maybe the car would still be top 35 if they didnt blow up at Las Vegas while running top 20 and if the SHR 10 car wasnt wrecked at Daytona. Reutimann has been better than his teammate Blaney in the 36 every single week." At the end of the day though, it's not how you ran, it's where you finshed. There are only 36 full-time teams that intend to run races to completion. 35 of them get locked into the field. Reutimann is the only one not locked in. That *is* a failure to live up to contractual obligation. Yes, the team can take some blame for engine failures, but not all of it. Engines fail when they're run too hard. If a driver isn't 'babying' the motor properly, then it's not going to last all race. Heck, that was Buddy Baker's biggest downfall as a driver. He just couldn't take care of his equiptment. "In case you havent noticed, it's not the "same car". Rodney Childers has been very open about how the 55 cars that have shown up week after week are brand new race cars. EVERY ONE OF THEM." I'll grant you that MWR is clearly a much better orginazation this year than they were last. But they weren't chopped liver last year. Truex finshed 18th in points (17th without the penalty), and if the team didn't have the miraculous ability to get 30th place finishes out of 8th place cars every other week, he could have been a chase contender. Truex had much worse luck throughout the season, and yet was still way ahead of Reutimann in points. And there is no excuse, none whatsoever, for a team of that caliber to finish behind Furniture Row Racing. Outside of Kentucky, Reutimann had a really sucky season. "In case you didnt notice, Reutimann outperformed Truex in 2010 and won straight up at Chicago... the only driver to win for MWR. I'm a big Truex fan and I think he's due, but last year was clearly a rough year for Reutimann, who has been the best MWR had every year up until that year." Key words: up until last year. Every single one of us reaches a point in our lives where we are no longer capable of perfoming at the same level we used to. (I'm 51, trust me, I know this) Some people reach that stage earlier than others. I take nothing away from David's performence from 2008-2010. In his day, he was a good solid top twenty driver. But his day passed last year. There's no shame in that - plenty on great drivers haven't heen the same in their forties (exhibit A: Bobby Labonte). But this is a performence based sport. As a head of Human Resources, I have to make judgement calls on whether or not our employees deserve to keep their jobs. And there's a saying that goes along with this job: "it doesn't matter what you did yesterday, it's what you're not doing today". Granted, following my philosophy might not always work out too well. Had I been in charge of RCR at the time, I'd have fired Dale Earnhardt after 1992. My judgement is far from infallible. But MWR did exactly what I would have done in that situation (except that I would never have considered hiring Mark Martin as his replacement). SmokeFan: "I like the TMMC series but i also see it as an insult to NASCAR because NASCAR isn't "world traveling, more RC going, more foreign driver having" racing series. That is just who i see it. I'm not even going to get started on the site where you can find it...................." Like all sites, they can get a bit cliqueish. My main problem with it is in the officiating - they seem to think that there is no such thing as a "racing deal". Every wreck must be intentional. But I do like the fact that the fields aren't as insular as NASCAR's. Just because you have a ride now doesn't mean you're going to have one a year from now. If you're underperforming too much, you're going to be out of a career. They don't recycle the same drivers over and over again. It makes things more unpredictable. Unlike in Cup, where we can, with a fair amount of certainty, predict exactly who will be driving what cars for the next ten years. We're practically at a driver's union stage. 286. cjs3872 posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) DSFF, one thing about the championship debate, the only thing that Dale Earnhardt, Sr. has over Jeff Gordon is this. Remember that, while Earnhardt won seven titles and finished second three times, he never had the Chase to worry about, so who knows how many championships he might have lost due to the Chase. Not only that, but he never had more than one serious challenger for the championship in any of the years he won the championship, except for 1980, the year of his first, which was such an oddball year due to all his competition announcing changes in teams for 1981, and three times, 1986 (due to consistency), 1987 (due to outright dominance), and 1994 (due to Ernie Irvan's near-fatal crash at Michigan), he had no competition at all for the championship. On the other hand, Gordon has won four championships against stiffer competition (in terms of number of competitve cars and teams, anyway), has been robbed twice due to the Chase (2004, 2007), which would have given him six championships, and if he had won either o both of those two championships, who knows how many more he would have won, because as we're seeing with Carl Edwards this year (and saw with him in 2009) and Denny Hamlin last year, coming so close to the title and not winning it has had a huge effect on them, and doubtlessly had a major negative impact on Gordon for two years following his 2004 disappointment, and he may still have not fully recovered from 2007. The Chase has severely devalued the championship because it no longer demands that a driver be good for all 36 races, just the last 10, meaning that a driver no longer has to be versatile to win a championship. A driver no longer has to be good on the oddball tracks (except Martinsville, perhaps), which include Darlington, Pocono, Indy, the road courses, and Martinsville, all of which are driver's tracks, with the exception of Indy, which is probably one of the three easiest tracks on the circuit to get around other than the restrictor plate tracks (Michigan and Auto Club Speedway being the other two). Why do you think Roush doesn't do well at the short tracks and road courses? Because he has little reason to put any emphasis on them because they have little-to-no impact on the championship. Roush doens't care how poorly he does on the short tracks and road courses, and the results show. Roush has only won at one of the three short tracks on the circuit since the inception of the Chase, and that's at Bristol, where his cars have won the night race four times. That's one reason I can never compare fully what Jimmie Johnson has done to anything his predecessors have done, because you only have to be good for ten races, instead of the entire season, which made the championships that guys like Gordon, Earnhardt, Yarborough, Waltrip, and Richard Petty so much harder to win. 287. LordLowe posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS You are the Master of NASCAR Knowledge and a Dunce at doing Backflips (don't take that to personally) 288. Kyle posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @post #282 if baldwin does go down to only 1 car it will be danica and blaney splitting the #10. which is probablly what they should have done in the first place. they were not ready for two full-time teams, they should have just had blaney run a second car when danica was running. 289. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.02.2012 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 20 of 22 seasons with a win (91%) > 16 of 19 seasons with a win (84%) 290. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Btw, saying "the only thing Dale has over Jeff is championships" is like saying "the only thing Montana has over Manning is Super Bowl wins" (which I think is true). Btw, considering Dale's ability to turn it up when he truly needed to, and Jeff's seeming annual Fall dropoff, I think it is safe to say the cha$e would have been a huge benefit to Dale. Btw, more NASCAR legends were at some point of their prime during Dale's title runs than Jeff's by a mile. Btw, ever think that Dale's "lack of competition" (categorically false) just appears that way because he ran off and hid from them as opposed to Jeff constantly getting a big lead then letting people back into it late ('95, '96, '97, should have been '01 except the Yates duo of Rudd and DJ gagged even worse) 291. Spen posted: 04.03.2012 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes. Sorry for the horrible proofreading job on that last post. And one other thing I wanted to say, in case it wasn't clear: I *like* David Reutimann. I really, really want to be wrong about him. Few things would make me happier than if he were to get a top ten at Texas. But what I hope will happen and what I think will happen are two very different things. 292. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Hang on, I'm not done Btw, is Dale lucky to never have the cha$e, or are his competitors lucky not to have had it cause he may have won more? Btw, was Jeff robbed due to the cha$e or did he simply fail to step it up like JJ did 5 years in a row and Smoke did last year? Btw, if the year after a crushing disappointment curse is alive (and I believe it is) then what does Dale's '90-'94 stretch say about him? His 1989 title loss is one of the most brutal ever. So what did he do? Won 4 of the next 5 Winston Cups. Doesn't that show how mentally tough he is? Seeing as how the cha$e has consistently showed us that mental stability is paramount (JJ 5 years in a row, Smoke the two years of his career he kept his head on straight, and KyBu annually being badly exposed) wouldn't that have inflated Dale's championship total? 293. 10andJoe posted: 04.03.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I dont see this pairing hanging together much longer. Baldwin can't afford two entries and will go back to Blaney only. As long as SHR is willing to pay for them to run the 10 when Danicamania is in recess, TBR will continue to run two cars. 294. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.03.2012 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I shouldn't have been so personal and angry in my response Spen so I apologize for that. Thanks for not taking it to the next level. 295. cjs3872 posted: 04.03.2012 - 2:57 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) DSFF, the point I was making about Dale and the Chase was that he did not have to battle more than one other driver in every one if his championship seasons but his first. If he had to battle 9-11 others for just ten races, as has been the case since 2004, he would have had just as much trouble winning championships in the cluster that he won them in (six of nine). And as for your saying that his failure to win the 1989 would have been crushing to Earnhardt, losing the 1990 Daytona 500 was actually a more crushing defeat than losing the 1989 championship to Rusty Wallace, who was a little better han everyone else in 1989. Remember that if not for an encounter with Stan Barrett at Phoenix that Rusty would actually have cliched a race early in 1989, or at least would have had to just start the finale at Atlanta, so I don't view Earnhardt's losing the 1989 championship a crushing disappointment. And as for your saying that Jeff Gordon didn't step it up in the Chase in 2004 and 2007, I'm not sure I agree there, either. In the 2004 Chase, nobody performed that well except for Jimmie Johnson, who won four times, but also had two or three bad races in the Chase that cost him the title that year. Gordon was solid, but not spectacular, and the only race in the Chase that year that he really should have won was the Southern 500. In fact, if not for a bad final pit stop, he would have won that race, and the difference between winning that race and finishing where he did may have been enough to cost him the championship. And in 2007, he averaged about a fifth-place finish in the Chase, but Jimmie Johnson again won four times, thistime all consecutively, and steamrolled the final five races to the championship while his crew chief withheld info from Gordon's team, which may also have been somewhat a factor in Gordon not winning the title in 2004, as his win in the Brickyard 400 was his last that year, and almost certainly his last in that race. My greater point was that, due to the Chase, a driver and team do not have to excel at hardly any of the oddball tracks that traditioanlly have separated the drivers in the past. A driver no longer has to excel at places like Darlington, Martinsville, Indy, Pocono, and the road courses, and those tracks, as well as the other short tracks are what separate the drivers and teams, but except for the fall race at Martinsville, the drivers do not have to do well at those races, and in fact, Roush doesn't even give a full effort at the short tracks, oddball tracks, and road courses for that very reason. As a result, the championship has been greatly cheapened by the fact that a driver no longe has to excel at all types of tracks, which is and always has been Gordon's greatest strength. By creating the Chase, they took his greatest strength away from him as far as winning championships go, and the same would be true in regards to Earnhardt. Trust me when I say this. Earnhardt would NEVER have been a fan of the Chase. With the Masters coming up this week, I'll make an analogy. What NASCAR did with the Chase would be like making it so that the first three rounds of a major golf championship never happened, and that only the final 18 holes counted without taking into account what happened in the first 54 holes. The same is true with the Chase. What happened during the balance of the season no longer counts toward who wins the NASCAR championship, but rather only the last ten races, half of which are run on 1.5 mile ovals, count toward the championship. Nothing that happened before even matters. And drivers like Earnhardt would never have been a fan of that because it takes away the chance for the best drivers and teams to separate themselves from the rest on the variety of tracks that make up the entire NASCAR circuit, and instead puts all the emphasis on a certain style of track for all intents and purposes. 296. NicoRosbergFan posted: 04.03.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Needless to say, it should be pointed out that 5 chase races are on cookie cutters and one is at Dega. That is six races that my 75-year old grandmother could win on in she were given the car, and she doesn't watch auto racing! Yes, I think that is why Gordo struggles a lot of the year, because cookie-cutters take ZERO talent compared to tracks like Martinsville and Dover, and even those the drivers only crank the wheel 30 degrees. 297. cjs3872 posted: 04.03.2012 - 8:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, NicoRosbergFan, four of the 1.5 mile Chase races are on "cookie-cutter" tracks. The fifth, the final race of the year, is at Homestead, which while another 1.5 mile oval, is a true oval, much like Atlanta was before it was reconfigured, so I'd leave Homestead out of the "cookie-cutter" conversation. But your point underscores what I've been saying in that the Chase has devalued the championship to such a degree that you don't have to be good on all types of tracks to contend for championships. That's why you can't compare drivers like Jimmie Johnson to the legendary drivers that won scores of championships having to race the FULL season on ALL types of tracks to win the title. Now all you have to do is just be in the top ten (or get one of the wild card spots), be good at the 1.5 mile tracks and survive Talladega, and you've got a great shot at the championship, and to me, that's just not right. To be a true champion in my estimation, you need to be good on all types of tracks, and you just don't have to be now, thanks to the Chase. 298. ch posted: 04.03.2012 - 11:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently the team was Falk's this week... "Falk said that Hermie Sadler, who drove to a 31st-place finish in the team's first race on Sunday at Martinsville, also figures to drive some more races." So 33 Owner Joe Falk. 299. 1995 Subaru WRX Sti posted: 04.03.2012 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like all sites, they can get a bit cliqueish. My main problem with it is in the officiating - they seem to think that there is no such thing as a "racing deal". Every wreck must be intentional. But I do like the fact that the fields aren't as insular as NASCAR's. Just because you have a ride now doesn't mean you're going to have one a year from now. If you're underperforming too much, you're going to be out of a career. They don't recycle the same drivers over and over again. It makes things more unpredictable. Unlike in Cup, where we can, with a fair amount of certainty, predict exactly who will be driving what cars for the next ten years. We're practically at a driver's union stage." They are more cliqueish then your realize. You can't speak out against F1 on there, or you'll be endlessly attacked for it. And they also concider "85% of NASCAR races are boring. And 100% of F1 races exciting." Do i need to continue? I was going to join that site but since i don't like F1 or IICS (IZOD Indycar Championship Series) might as well not even bother. Cuz i will not be welcome there. Drivers in the TMMC canon are recycled, they just go to different racing series in the canon itself (ARLA for example). There are "racing deals" on there and no penalities have been given for the ones i've seen. Like i said before "F1 rules with stock car bodies" thing just doesn't work, it's either one or other. Can't be both. BTW who is this "Smokefan" everyone keeps talking about? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL :-P 300. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "DSFF, the point I was making about Dale and the Chase was that he did not have to battle more than one other driver in every one if his championship seasons but his first." Again, considering Dale's mentality, that probably would have helped him more than anything. Especially considering his ability to step it up when he absolutely had to. In fact, many of the cha$e winners had situations you could compare to some of Dale's late season runs in title seasons. Example #1: The "Oh s**t, here he comes!" Modern example: JJ holding off a hard charging Carl in 2008 Earnhardt example: 1993 and 1994 In '08, after kicking the s**t out of the field at Martinsville, JJ had a 149 point lead over 2nd place Biff, and was 198 points ahead of 4th place Carl with 4 races left. Carl won 3 of the last 4 races, with a 4th in the other race. Yet JJ holds tight with finishes of 2nd, 15th, 1st, and 15th. Meanwhile, in '93, Dale watches Rusty, who won 5 of the first 16 races cut his 309 point lead to 82 points after Rusty triggered a wreck on a restart that took Dale out of Dover (27th for him, a win for Rusty) and then Dale broke an axle at Martinsville (29th for Dale, Rusty was 2nd). Did Dale give in to the pressure despite that fact that Rusty is ON FREAKING FIRE? Nope. His next 4 finishes are 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th building his lead back up to 126 despite the fact that Rusty won twice over that span. All he had to do was finish 34th or better in the last race. 1994 is somewhat similar, but admittantly not as much. Ernie Irvan, now with powerhouse Yates, has finally matured behind the wheel, channeling all that awesome talent finally. That 28 car is fast everywhere. Yet heading into Michigan Dale still had a 27 point edge, matching Ernie's 3 wins. We all know what happened next, Ernie crashes in practice and is next to dead. We are just waiting for the news any moment that Ernie has passed (Thank the Good Lord that never happened). In the race, Dale crashed with Todd Bodine, only gaining about 50 points on Ernie who was only being kept alive by machines at that point (fun fact, if they did have the cha$e that year, Ernie would have made it and finished 10th!). But what gets overlooked is that Rusty was 213 back. The same Rusty who already has 5 wins by this point (for those counting at home, that is 15 wins in a year and a half). Is Dale scared? Nope. His next 8 races look like this: 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 3rd, and 1st. Even though Rusty won 3 times over that stretch, it doesn't faze Dale who keeps putting up those solid finishes, ballooning his points lead to 448 (in all fairness, Rusty did blow up twice) meaning he has clinched with 2 races still to run. For those saying "the 1994 title was gift wrapped, Ernie definitely would have won", I urge you to think again. Look at those finishes again. And remember Dale had the lead when Ernie got hurt. Example #2: The "This guy can do no wrong, how am I gonna get around him?" Modern example: Smoke pulling it out over Carl in '11. Earnhardt example: 1990 Carl was living a charmed existance in the 2011 cha$e, immune to bad luck. Not overpowering with lots of wins, but well enough that it would take a lot of wins to pass him. Tony did it with lots of wins and mind games. In 1990, Mark was living a similarly consistant life. After race #13, Dale was 5th, 118 points back. His next 12 races were off the hook. His worst finish was 8th (twice). His only other non Top 5 was a 7th. The other 9 races were 5 wins, 2 runner ups, a 3rd and a 4th. Yet he still found himself 16 points back thanks to 2 wins by Mark and stunning consistency. Much like Smoke after Phoenix in '11, he had to be thinking what the HELL do I have to do? But Dale didn't give up, even after blowing a tire at Charlotte and finishing 25th, making his points deficit 49. He entered the second to last race 45 races back. He left with a 6 point lead, eventually winning by 26 after psyching Mark and Jack out pretty bad after an Atlanta test. And again, for those who say "It was gift wrapped cause Mark had a 46 point questionable penalty after the second race of the year" that was actually the best thing that could have happened to them. With a bigger point lead, they would have went into prevent mode and lost even worse. Jack's history says so. Example #3: The "there is a multi-time champion breathing down my neck, and I need to perform NOW!" Modern example: JJ beating Gordon in '07 Earnhardt example: 1980 and 1986 With Jeff having his finest season as far as blending consistency and speed, he won his second consecutive race at Charlotte with 5 races left, holding a 68 point lead over JJ. JJ then won at two of his strongholds, Martinsville and Atlanta. But the next two races were are Texas and Phoenix where the 48 hadn't won at yet. He needed to step it up like never before. He did, he won both, took a convincing points lead, and never looked back while a stunned Gordon wonder what the hell just happened. In 1980, second year driver Dale Earnhardt had 7 time and defending champ Richard Petty and the guy who won the previous 3 Winston Cups before Petty, Cale Yarborough breathing down his neck. After blowing up just 151 laps into Dover, he was just 60 points ahead of the King and 74 ahead of Cale with just 6 races to go. Plenty of time for the experienced vets to prey on the youngster right? Wrong. Dale finished 5th the next week, then won back to back races at Charlotte and Martinsville. While Charlotte had been a good track for him, Martinsville was one of his worst at the beginning of his career. He wouldn't get another Top 10 there until the Fall of '83. He wouldn't lead another lap there until the Spring of '85 (all of 1 lap), and wouldn't finish on the lead lap until his next win there in the Fall of '85. This gave him the cushion he needed for a bad race at Rockingham (18th)and a 3rd at Atlanta (both Yarborough wins). In the Fall of 1986, winner of 3 of the previous 5 Winston Cups, DW won at North Wilkesboro, cutting Dale's points lead to 122. Jaws then took a low blow at Dale and his lack of education saying "I'd put some psychological stuff in the papers, but it wouldn't do any good cause Dale and his team can't read". How did a pissed off Dale respond? He overcame being a lap down twice to win at Charlotte, lost points to Darrell by finishing 6th at Rockingham, then lapped the field at Atlanta while Darrell blew up early, clinching the Cup. And for those saying "They were both in lame duck situations so they were at a disadvantage" I have two words for you: Darian Grubb. People with the heart of a champion (this includes Junior Johnson, Cale, and Darrell) aren't going to give up. If anything, it makes them hungrier to say "see what you are losing". Example #4: The "somebody has to win this damn thing" Modern example: Kurt Busch in 2004 Earnhardt example: 1991 The less said about either of those seasons, the better. In each case the champ repeatedly tried to give it away, only their competitors did an even better job of gagging. Let's move on. Example #5: The "damn it's good to be me" Modern example: JJ in 2009 Earnhardt example: 1987 Self explanitory. The point is Dale proved over and over he could handle all types of pressure. Telling Dale "alright, you have got 10 races, run your ass off and see what happens" is like telling Jeremy Mayfield "there is an unguarded, unlocked meth lab in that trailer right in front of you". The result would be a feast (although Dale wouldn't lose any teeth unlike Jeremy). Again, Dale had 8 legitimate shots at the Winston Cup. He won 7 of them, losing the 8th to a faster Rusty and his #27 team after a trio of "why did that have to happen?" races for Dale. The cha$e would have actually brought him closer in more seasons. Given his track record, I think we have the evidence to show that would have been a help for The Intimidator. 301. Scott B posted: 04.03.2012 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #298, It is my understanding that the Falk deal was in place before Martinsville, but too late for Falk to officially be listed as the #33 owner except unless it was done "PE," which would have meant no points earned for that race. Thus, the #33 was listed as an RCR car for one extra week, as Childress' name was on the entry form. However, it appears both Hermie and Elliott Sadler are in the mix as potential drivers with Falk in charge, so the brother act could continue. I know it's been done before, but it's been a long while since brothers shared the same Cup ride in the same season. 302. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Trust me when I say this. Earnhardt would NEVER have been a fan of the Chase." I agree. But he also was NEVER a fan of plate racing, yet he was the master, winning 11 times in 13 seasons of plate racing. Jeff passed him with 12 wins in 15 seasons (I'm stopping at 2007 for Jeff's sake). Nobody complained louder about plate racing than Dale. Even after winning the thriller at Talladega in 2000, he talked about how much he didn't like it. But he still mastered it, just like he would have mastered the cha$e based on evidence. 303. LordLowe posted: 04.03.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF what example would you put Johnson's 2010 Championship Victory in. 304. Kyle posted: 04.03.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) according to a joe falk racing press release, austin dillon may be running some races for the team as part of the deal to get the points, and joe's nephew C.E. Falk could also make some cup starts. i have no idea how the hell he would get approved to run though, as his most recend nascar starst were two truck races in 2010, though he did run whelen modifieds last year i believe. 305. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JJ's 2010 was the "thanks for the gift". Alternate titles : the "Dewey defeats Truman" in reference to Mike Ford's premature trash talk, the "Hey Denny, you still have the points lead and a faster car with one race left so quit throwing shit", the "Damn, what a trainwreck Denny is", the "I bet Denny's 2011 is gonna suck". 306. 10andJoe posted: 04.03.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heh, "Thanks For The Gift" sums up 2010 perfectly, since both Denny AND Kevin choked to give JJ numero cinco on a golden platter. 307. dUDE gUY posted: 04.03.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's been a couple of days since my rants, and I've calmed down and looked at the situation again. I have to apologize to David Reutimann, whether he reads this site or not, and also to any of his fans and anyone else who was offended by my blasting of Reuti. He was just following team orders, so it was really no fault of his own. It was either stay on the track with rapidly deteriorating car, or pull into pits against team orders. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place, and really doesn't deserve any blame for what happened. I would like to say I'm still a fan of David despite what I said earlier, but a true fan of his wouldn't have thrown him under the bus so quickly, and for that I am sorry. I also retract my claim that they should be penalized for what happened, as the result of the situation was punishment enough. However, I still feel that whoever made that call at TBR should have looked at the situation a little more closely, and should have pulled Reutimann into the pits. I know they're fighting to be in the top 35 in owners points, but that car was falling apart so fast after the tie rod broke it was obvious to see it would fail in some way within a few laps afterward. They should have brought it into pits, and made hasty repairs as fast as they could in case of three Green-White-Checkers, which I believe is why they stayed on the track in the first place. They were far enough ahead of Kyle Busch that all they needed was a handful more laps to stay ahead of KB in case the race did go to three GWC's. If they repaired it enough, they might have been able to putt around during the caution laps in the GWC and pulled back in when the green was waved, thus making enough laps to stay ahead of Kyle Busch. It would have been a more sensible and respectable solution in my mind. But what's done is done, hindsight is 20/20, and all they can do now is look forward to Texas and hopefully make up the ground they lost. 308. ii posted: 04.03.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JJ's 2010 was the "thanks for the gift". Alternate titles : the "Dewey defeats Truman" in reference to Mike Ford's premature trash talk, the "Hey Denny, you still have the points lead and a faster car with one race left so quit throwing shit", the "Damn, what a trainwreck Denny is", the "I bet Denny's 2011 is gonna suck"." Another alternate: "Jeff Gordon's crew and I got the championship. My crew sucks." 309. Spen posted: 04.03.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BTW who is this "Smokefan" everyone keeps talking about?" Hehe, sorry, old habits. And I can never remember if Subaru is spelled with an a or an e. 310. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.03.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good one ii 311. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.03.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm still calling bullshit on their claim that they didn't realize a rapidly failing car would fail rapidly." Usually tie rod failures don't cause engine problems lol 312. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.03.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) also they were worried about passing the 36 for 34th place, not about Kyle Busch passing them I know youre more understanding, but just responding to what the argument was 313. Mr X posted: 04.03.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is another idea I've had that would not only help me enjoy future races at Martinsville and other similar racetracks, and it likely would've helped to prevent the David Reutimann caution from happening. My idea is to run the inner liner in the tires everywhere. Long before this race, I've loved Martinsville, however it always pains me to see just how many cautions are thrown for an idle car with just a flat tire. Once a car gets a flat at Martinsville, its on the rim, and getting back to pitroad becomes a task with the almost constant stream of drivers coming on the inside. With the inner liners a car with a flat could maintain a much more reasonable pace, make it further, and be much more maneuverable. I'm curious how it would work with the heat from the brakes, however if it can be done(I think it can) I think it should. 314. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.04.2012 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and it likely would've helped to prevent the David Reutimann caution from happening" Mr X... Reutimann didn't have a flat tire 315. Mr X posted: 04.04.2012 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, it was my understanding that he had a flat tire, broken tie rod, and engine failure, and I still think that it would be a good idea. 316. TheTruthâ?¢ posted: 04.04.2012 - 12:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) yeah it might be a good idea regardless. I'm not really sure how much more maneuverable and how much faster they could run in the inner liner but I'd have to imagine that there's something there 317. 10andJoe posted: 04.04.2012 - 1:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, apparently, the Michigan tire test has seen Brad K run 212mph, and Jeff Gordon 215. I'm assuming those are lap times and not trap speeds... Not so SWAG: restrictor plates at Michigan. 318. Watto posted: 04.04.2012 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm pretty sure the 212 & 215 were the fastest they got to on the frontstretch. Keselowski thinks itll be even faster today 319. MStall41 posted: 04.04.2012 - 8:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are rumblings out of Michigan that NASCAR may be considering using plates for the races this year. In all honesty that would make for a great race considering how spread out things get at Michigan usually. 320. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.04.2012 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope they don't mess with the aero package. Putting plates on them is fine with me but DO NOT put the crappy Daytona/Talladega packages on them. Leave the spoilers blocky and big, DO NOT mess the cooling systems. Find the right plate size, find the right spoiler angle and leave it at that. DO NOT SCREW WITH ANYTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 321. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.04.2012 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I say leave 'em unrestricted. At those speeds the draft will be huge, and with the boxyness of these cars, we may even see the return of the slingshot pass from the '80's. I'mve always thought the answer to the Daytona/Dega conundrum was to knock the banking down. 322. cjs3872 posted: 04.04.2012 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if the speeds are as high as reported, you can't run them unrestriced, because if one gets backwards, it turns into an unguided missile in the air, and could get into the catch fencing, or even the crowd. And remember that unlike Daytona and Talladega, the fences at Michigan would not be prepared for such an incident. And also, if they do run restrictor plates, while you'll see small packs of cars, the whole field is not going to be together because handling will still play a role, due to the much lower banking in the turns. The one thing I would like about seeing restrictor plates is that they'll have to run longer on a tank of fuel, making how hard you want to run early in a run a factor. Now, a much more serious note. With the next NASCAR races scheduled for the Texas Motor Speedway in about ten days, has anyone heard about any possible damage done to the Texas Motor Speedway from yesterday's major tornadoes n that area? If you remember, some years back, a tornado did do some significant damage to the Atlanta Motor Speedway, but that was long before any races were scheduled to be held there, so while we all wish for a complete recovery for those impacted by the tornadoes, the fact that such an event hit an area so shortly before a race weekend made me wonder what kind of damage, if any, was done to the Texas Motor Spedway yesterday? 323. Kyle posted: 04.04.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) no damage has been reported by texas motor speedway. 324. cjs3872 posted: 04.04.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the info, Kyle. It's just that, had ther been, how might that have impacted the schedule, not that it really matters in the overall scheme of things where the people affected by the tornadoes are concerned, but had there been damage to the Texas Motor Speedway, how might that have affected the scheduling. But apparently, there's nothing to worry about in that front, though there will certainly be thoughts about the tornadoes during the pre-race for both the Nationwide and Cup races in two weekends. 325. martin-n-rusty posted: 04.04.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would have to believe 212-215 HAS to be a corner entry speed, not an average lap. Pole speed at the last Michigan race was 190, so I doubt, unless they messed with the banking, that they would jump up 20-25 MPH just by laying down a new layer of asphalt. If you said an average lap of about 200, that would make some sense though 326. Mr X posted: 04.04.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I say leave them unrestricted. 215-220mph at the end of the straight sounds awesome to me. Remember that cars have gotten air bourne at MIS before, Elliott Sadler in practice in 2000 for example. It's not like MIS has been selling out all of their seats anyway, not since 2008 has there been a race there with less than 30,000 empty seats. Put a tarp over the seats in the danger zone, and although I can't speak from experience, I highly doubt much can be seen from those seats anyway, I really feel that NASCAR should run at least one race unrestricted just to see where we're at. 327. ii posted: 04.04.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In order for the drivers to be safe, the speeds have to be restricted. NASCAR may run an unrestricted testing session to see how fast the speeds would be, but they will never let a race car do over 200mph average at any track anymore. Not when cars could flip over the catch fence if they go fast enough. I think Bill France is smart enough to keep the safety of the drivers and the fans the same or make it even better since the HANS device and the SAFER barrier. When MIS and ACS are repaved, they are getting restrictor plates. 230 mph straightaway speed is too much for a stock car. I would actually like extra banking on Michigan and Fontana, but put restrictor plates on those tracks. I think that we'd see something similar to that of Daytona or Talladega. This is also what these tracks need: since the turn of the century, attendance has been dwindling downwards. Another set of superspeedways, which would make the total of them 7, would definitely bring more people to these tracks. Plus, they are very wide, even wider than Talladega. I would like to see the new aero package at Michigan. It was fairly interesting at Daytona. We didn't get to see much of its features in the daytime, though, since the shootout and the 500 were night races this year. Plus, a 400 mile race on a 2-mile track is different than the Daytona race. I'd like to see how that pans out. 328. Anonymous posted: 04.04.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone want to read about Carl Edwards' personal life? http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTX_ezca-lEl0-fc-JH0dWP49uAVYKJ_nZsvURyaFUNcMpsD0irvOmtO9No Honestly, I'm not surprised by the things said in that article. Edwards comes across as laid back while at the track, but away from it I can see him being a real tight a** about everything. Contrast that with guys who at the track come across as stuck up, intense, or unapproachable, like Jimmie Johnson, Kevin Harvick, or Kyle Busch, those guys are actually pretty laid back away from racing. 329. cjs3872 posted: 04.04.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, was Elliott Sadler's turning over a result of aerodynamics or hard contact with the wall, much like Michael McDowell's qualifying crash at Texas years later. If it was from the contact with the wall, those kinds of flips have occurred at shorter tracks at much slower speeds. Bobby Allison (1976) and Carl Long (2004) have had that happen to them at Rockingham and Rusty Wallace had that happen in a practice crash at Bristol in the late 80s. Now there have been cars to get airborne at Michigan from aerodynamics. The two that come to my mind would be Johnny Benson, Jr. in a Morgan-McClure Busch (now Nationwide) Series cars about 20 years ago, and Todd Bodine much more recently in 2003. The thing about Michigan is that the catch fencing is not as good as it is at Daytona or Talladega cause no car has goten into the fencing in an area where there were spectators. Now that's not likely to happen in front of the main grandstands, because the cars run right up next to the wall until late in the race. d remember that if they have to use restrictor plates, which would make the race a lot like the races there in the 70s and early 80s when drafting was a major factor, the cars may stay bunched together, but will not stay in one big pack because of the lower banking (18 degrees in the corners as opposed to 31 at Daytona and 33 at Takladega), because the cars will still have to handle. In fact, driver strategy will play a bigger role. It will play a role in how hard the drivers want to push the issue early in a run, since they'll be able to go much further on a tank of fuel, and it will play a factor in where a driver wants to be near the finish (I can almost guarantee that will not be the lead). Also, ii, you mention when Auto Club Speedway and ichigan International Speedway are repaved that you'll see restrictor plates on those two tracks. this discussion os tasking place because Michigan International Speedway WAS repaved. But another track you might want to add to that list is the Atlanta Motor Speedway. That surface is now 15 years old and due for repaving, as well. And let's not forget Pocono Raceway, which I understand has also been repaved and smoothened (so much that there's even been talk about bringing the IndyCars back). Now the overall lap speeds there will not come close to what you see at the banked tracks, but with the fresher and smoother pavement, speeds down both long straightaways may exceed 210 MPH, and with the number of horredous crashes that have occurred there over the years invoving the likes of Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt (twice), Bobby AND Davey Allison, Jeff Gordon, Dale Jarrett, Ken Schrader, and Dave Marcis among many others, they may need restrictor plates there to keep straightaway speeds in check. 330. Dinger22 posted: 04.05.2012 - 1:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @post 328- WTF was that link? Are you trolling us? I did however read a story about Carl Edwards today, because a former girlfriend of his wrote a book or something, but I think you screwed up your link. And yes, Edwards does come off pretty much the way you'd expect away from the track and and away from his phony persona. Or maybe he's grown as a person, I won't jump to conclusions. Here's the link to that article- http://www.cbssports.com/nascar/blog/eye-on-nascar/18301117/olympic-swimmer-beard-critical-of-relationship-with-carl-edwards 331. Mr X posted: 04.05.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, it was aero, Elliott blew a RR tire going into turn one, the car spun out however never hit anything, except the ground over and over. But in all seriousness the air picked the car up, and luckily Elliott was okay. 332. Watto posted: 04.05.2012 - 4:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I would actually like extra banking on Michigan and Fontana, but put restrictor plates on those tracks. I think that we'd see something similar to that of Daytona or Talladega." The last thing I wanna see is more crapshoot racing on the NASCAR schedule. Anon - I believe the Edwards article link is a bad link 333. cjs3872 posted: 04.05.2012 - 8:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the clarification, Mr X. That was so long ago (Sadler was driving for the Wood Brothers then) that I didn't know what caused his car to turn over. And didn't current pace car driver Brett Bodine have a bad crash in that same practice session? I'll say this about Elliott Sadler. In his time in Cup (430 starts, 3 wins, 2 in 500-mile races), he had at least three terrible crashes in which his car got airborne t I know of. That practice crash at Michigan in 2000 (I believe), as well as crashes in consecutive fall races at Talladega in 2003 and 2004. The crash in 2003 was a really bad one, since his car flipped on the pavement, not on the grass, which would absorb some of the impact. His crash at the end of the 2004 fall race at Talladega was similar to Rusty Wallace's crash at the end of the 1993 Winston 500, in that it happened right at the finish of the race Sadler actually finished the race in the air backwards. But again, thanks for the clarification, Mr X. 334. Smiff_99 posted: 04.05.2012 - 8:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In reference to Sadler's flip in 2000, it was pretty much the same thing that happened to Newman at Daytona in '03, in that the blown out rear tire left a big, gaping hole in the right rear. In both cases, that made the car get airborne a whole lot easier. And CJS3872, that Bodine wreck was in '03...(*IF* you're referring to the one in the Hooter's car where he hit the wall in turn one, the throttle hung, and he ended up shitpiling it into the tires inside of turn 2) 335. cjs3872 posted: 04.05.2012 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for correcting me, Smiff_99. 336. Smiff_99 posted: 04.05.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, I read every single damn word written in these comment sections....I gotta chime in every ONCE in a while, right? LOL 337. Anonymous posted: 04.05.2012 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anon - I believe the Edwards article link is a bad link" It was, my bad. It's like I copied a pop-up ad's link by accident or something. But Dinger22 posted basically the same thing a few posts down from mine. I'd be very interested to see what DaleSrFanForever has to say about it, as he's been so critical of Edwards in the past. 338. ii posted: 04.05.2012 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, he landed on his wheels in 2004, right at the finish line. Also, there were at least 4 bad crashes in Sadler's career: remember 2010 Pocono? That was the hardest hit in the history of NASCAR since they started keeping track of that stat. 339. Ben posted: 04.05.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, it appears as if your driver likes all the track you don't. http://www.nascar.com/news/120405/bkeselowski-behind-the-wheel/index.html 340. cjs3872 posted: 04.05.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ii, I was referring to the crashes in which Sadler turned over, which I count what happened at the end of the 2004 fall race at Talladega as turning over, even though his car, as you mentioned, landed on it's wheels, similar to Robert Pressley's crash early in the 1997 Dayotna 500, or Bill Elliott's crash in the 1996 Winston 500 that resulted in a broken leg. That crash at Pocono (again, another horrifying cash at Pocono) is definately the worst of Sadler's career, but I was only counting the ones in which his car turned over. He also had a hard hit in the spring race at Talladega in 2002 in that huge crash on the backstretch. And Smiff_99, if I make an error, I want those who see it to correct me, because I think the facts need to be presented as accurately as possible, if there are debates based on actual facts both past and present. 341. JG24FanForever posted: 04.05.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) cjs3872 Other Modern records that Gordon has that you can use in your Greatest Modrn Driver argument is as follows }5 consecutive seasons with the most wins 1995-99(nobody else with tie breakers has more than 2 straight) }22 back-back wins(Earnhardt is 2nd with 15) }20 Crown Jewel wins(I count the Southern 500 from 2005-08) }14 consecutive multi-win seasons 1994-2007(Cale had 13 straight) }9 consecutive Crown Jewel winning seasons 1994-2002(JJ,Dale Sr.and Bobby Allison all have 4 straight, this has to be his most impressive record) }6 consecutive Road-Race wins(Dale and JJ have a win apiece, but Dale has a better avg. finish than Gordon and is very underrated in Road-Racing) }4 straight Southern 500+Spring Bristol wins 1995-98 }11 consecutive Triple-win+ season's 1995-2005 }Back-Back Triple Crown+Championship season's 1997-98(JJ is the only other Triple Crown champ in 2006) I was chopping the statistics with the original 3 Crown Jewel's the Daytona 500 the Southern 500 and the World/Coke 600 and including the Championship, only six men have achieved a true career Grand Slam and won all 4, Jeff Gordon with 3,David Pearson,Darrell Waltrip,Richard Petty,Dale Earnhardt and Jimmie Johnson have 1 career Grand Slam. Even more impressive is Gordon is the only driver with a season Grand Slam which he did in 1997. 342. JG24FanForever posted: 04.05.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgive me for misspelling Modern.. 343. LordLowe posted: 04.05.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is some advise for Gordon collect some rabbit's feet and cover the car with four leaf clovers and golden Horseshoes and see if that turns your luck around. 344. JG24FanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not trying to stir up anymore shit about this race, so don't think that what i'm about to post is deliberate, but I was looking at the driver rating and even though Gordon was scored 14th he had a driver rating that had a gap between him and second place Dale Jr. that was bigger than the gap between Jr. and 9th place Martin Truex Jr. in the total rating. Rate Fastest laps laps led Avg. running position Jeff Gordon 133.0 84 328 2nd June Bug 114.7 27 3 5th Clint Bowyer 113.6 16 2 4th Denny Hamlin 111.5 27 31 5th Jimmie Johnson 109.4 58 112 8th Brad Keselowski 105.6 23 2 6th Ryan Newman 102.9 7 12 11th Matt Kenseth 99.7 8 1 9th Martin Truex Jr. 98.1 3 0 10th 345. JG24FanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 1:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not trying to stir up anymore shit about this race, so don't think that what i'm about to post is deliberate, but I was looking at the driver rating and even though Gordon was scored 14th he had a driver rating that had a gap between him and second place Dale Jr. that was bigger than the gap between Jr. and 9th place Martin Truex Jr. in the total rating. Rate Jeff Gordon 133.0 June Bug 114.7 27 Clint Bowyer 113.6 Denny Hamlin 111.5 Jimmie Johnson 109.4 Brad Keselowski 105.6 Ryan Newman 102.9 Matt Kenseth 99.7 Martin Truex Jr. 98.1 sorry my above post got so jumbled, i'm no good at bracketing. 346. cjs3872 posted: 04.06.2012 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) JG24FanForever, that is why I consider Jeff Gordon to be the Jack Nicklaus of NASCAR, which is a fitting analogy right now, considering they're playing the Masters this weekend in Augusta, GA, which Nicklaus won a record six times. As you've said Gordon won all three of the original crown jewel races AND the championship three times each, and nobody else has even done it twice, much like when Nicklaus got three career Grand Slams, nobody else had more than one, and only three others had even achieved a career Grand Slam (Gene Sarazen, Ben Hogan, and Gary Player were the other three at that time). And I see that I'm not the only one that has incorporated the races at Darlington from 2005-'08 in the history of the Southern 500 when the name returned to that race in 2009. And Gordon has won three of the five current crown jewel races more than anyone else, having won the Southern 500 a record six times, the Brickyard 400 four times, and is also the only four-time winner of the spring race at Talladega, as well as having won the Daytona 500 and Coca-Cola 600 three times each. Prior to Gordon, the only driver to win all of his era's crown jewels at least three times was Bobby Allison. Not to mention that he's also won the Firecracker 400 and the All-Star Race three times each, as well. Yes, with his next win, Gordon wil move up to second on my all-time NASCAR driver listing ahead of Allison, if he ever wins again, which he should, though Lady Luck has certainly not rode with him this year and ranks as the greatest modern NASCAR driver ever, bar none. He doesn't have the most championships, even among active drivers, but I've always maintained that championships are not the greatest measure of a driver's performance, espercially since the championship has been devalued enormously due to the Chase. Just as important are versatility, as well as that coolness under pressure that put Gordon in a class of his own for a decade. There's a reason he always seemed to do his best in the biggest events where the pressure is highest, while others such as Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin, and Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards today sem to lack the ability to seal the deal when the pressure is highest. And I'll say this. If Gordon ever wins at Indy again, which he almost did last year, that would be his fifth win at Indy. I know it's not the Indianapolis 500, but a fifth win at Indy would put him in a class by himself among all the greats that have ever raced and won there. Eddie Cheever, who won the 1998 Indianapolis 500, has said in the last couple of years that the one "super prize" in racing is winning five Indianapolis 500s, and given the long history of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, a fifth win at Indy by Jeff Gordon may be what returns the Brickyard 400 to the prominence that it has lost among many fans over the last five years, if it ever happens. Again, it's not the Indianpolis 500, but the fact that nobody has won more than four times there in over a century of racing means that whoever is Indy's first five-time winner, whether it's an IndyCar driver in the 500, or a NASCAR driver in the Brickyard 400, will rightly move onto a pedestal that nobody has yet attained in American racing. 347. JG24FanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 Don't forget Herr Schumacher's 5 of 7 U.S Gp's at Indy(kidding of course) I was thrilled to find that Gordon had become the first driver to reach 90 Dominant races in the Modern age at Martinsville despite the obvious rage it caused me with the outcome,but something that really thrilled me was I was at Darlington in 2010 sitting in the Pearson tower watching him Dominate a race for the 85th time surpassing Dale Earnhardt for 2nd on the Modern scale and I didn't even know it. 348. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 3:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'll post a detailed rebuttal sometime tomorrow when I'm not at work trying to assess and treat people 3 sheets to the wind about why Jeff, in all honesty, can't even approach Dale. But one little nugget to chew on: you could easily make the case Jeff isn't even the best Hendrick driver ever. Btw, as far as the golf analogy (and forgive me, I know pretty much nothing about golf and its history except Grizzly Adams had a beard and Phil Mickelson always shits the bed), imagine if Jack Nicklaus got to use the most modern golf clubs his entire career while a competitor who had a few less career wins (but much more time ranked #1) had to use clubs never on the cutting edge. 349. Spen posted: 04.06.2012 - 7:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Incidentally, with Junior running fifth on average in this race, that makes it the first time since Texas 2010 that he's averaged a top five run. Only the second time that's happened since 2008. 350. Scott B posted: 04.06.2012 - 11:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A few thing I would not have expected at the Easter break: 1. Kasey Kahne 31st in points. There is always one good driver who gets off to a disasterous start, but I wouldn't have guess it would be him. With him and Kenny Francis coming over to Hendrick as a package deal, I expected a stronger start. 2. Junior being the top ranked Hendrick driver. Circumstances have already been discussed at length, so no need to elaborate. 3. The top two drivers in the standings being winless. Even with bonuses for the win, consistancy still prevails. 4. MWR having two drivers in the top 12, to JGR's one. With the merging of the Toyota engine programs, I expected Gibbs to be off a little. I didn't anticipate the Waltrip teams picking up as much as they did, though. 5. Logano still hanging in at 13th in points. He knows he's on the hot seat, and driving like he wants to keep his job. I still expect him to fade as the season wears on, though. And one thing I did expect: Congrats are apparently in order for Josh Wise, 2012 Rookie of the Year. Timmy Hill is dropping out of the ROTY contest, so Wise can phone it in from here... and for the third consecutive seaseon will have a ROTY winner by default. 351. Eric posted: 04.06.2012 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I don't think you should put a lot of stock in speeds at Michigan at this point. While the speeds is going to increase, there is a couple things things to look at. The temperatures in right now in Michigan is not exactly a good indicator of speeds because there could be a difference in track temperature between early April to June. Michigan is a temperature sensitive track. The second thing to look at is Phoenix had a test last year after the track was reconfigured and resurfaced. That test had speeds that would break the track record, but there hasn't been a new track record there since the track got reconfigured. The same thing might be true at Michigan also. 352. cjs3872 posted: 04.06.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, Matt Kenseth said on NASCAR Now that speeds entering turn one in the draft could reach 220, so I'm not the only one mentioning the extreme speeds. One thing that will slow the speeds down somewhat is that they'll probably run the hardest tire compound, which will slow the cars down in the corners. NASCAR can also slow the cars down by running a more restrictive gear ratio, which will slow them down on the straightaways. And there's no guarantee that it won't be cool in Michigan in June. Kenseth also said they were running three seconds a lap faster during the test than they were last August, and they usually don't run as fast in a test session as they do on a race weekend. they qualified at under 38 seconds, or nearly 191 MPH in August last year. hat's the case, and they do qualify with a 36 second lap, which is slightly under two seconds faster than last August's pole, the lap speed would be riat 200 MPH. If they ran a 35 secind lap, which would be in that three second range that Kenseth mentioned, the lap speed would be over 205 MPH. Remember that one reason why they run the hardest compound tire they have at Charlotte is because they're afraid of the high speeds at Charlotte since that track was most recently repaved after the disastrous races there in 2005. And if the temperatures there had been cool, which it can be in May, I believe lap speeds could have been up to 195 for qualifying. And you mentioned, Eric, that they have not broken the track record at Phoenix since it was reconfigured. Remember that it was unusually hot at Phoenix this past race weekend there, plus they ran a harder compound tire, which would slow cornering speeds. Another factor in them not breaking the track record at Phoenix has to do with when they qualify there, as they do so in late morning, sop the fastest cars in practice would almost certainly not be the fastest in qualifying. Now I don't know when they would be qualifying at Michigan. If it's a Saturday session in the late morning/early afternoon when the track starts to heat up, the times would almost certainly be slower because of the warmer conditions, but if it's a late Friday afternoon qualifying session whenthe track cools down, the speeds will almost certainly pick up even more because the conditions will become more condusive to speed when the faster cars go out. So there are several factors involved in why some of these track record have not been broken. 353. Eric posted: 04.06.2012 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, If you look at the race schedule outside of Daytona, ISC tracks have been qualifying on Saturday so far this year. Michigan is going be to be the same thing with Qualifying. The exception to this is the night races ISC tracks will have. I already knew the reasons the track record didn't happen phoenix before you mention it including when they qualify. What was I trying to get at with my statement about phoenix was if Phoenix for different reasons between testing and when they come back, who says Michigan wouldn't have similar things happen. I also knew about the harder compound Charlotte uses also before you told me. 354. Mr X posted: 04.06.2012 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, how do you feel about the speeds that were run in the 24 Hours of Le Mans prior to 1990. That race is held at Circuit de La Sarthe, a track which is a mix of purpose built racetrack and public roads. The track is roughly 8.5 miles around, and has always been most famous for its most outstanding feature, the Mulsanne Straight, during the rest of the year it is a public road, Mulsanne Road in fact, however during the race it is a 3.7 mile straightaway on which the prototype cars were reaching speeds of 240-250mph. After 1990 the Mulsanne was split into three much shorter straights due to the French government not allowing any straights over 2km in length in auto racing. Nowadays we only see 200-220mph. 355. cjs3872 posted: 04.06.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I did not realize that the Saturday morning qualifying sessions were a blanket thing when it came to the ISC tracks. And yes, I kind-of figured that you and everyone else that have ben fans for years knew about why they need to run hard tires at Charlotte to keep the speeds down to protect the tires, which just could not stand the excessive speeds for prolonged periods of time. As for the Saturday morning time trials, that's why a lot of teams purposely sandbag in the first practice session, the one that determines who will qualify where, because as the qualifying session goes on, the track conditions past midway through the qualifying line get progressively worse. That's a major reason that Jeff Gordon hasn't won a pole on a non-restrictor plate track and consitently qualifies poorly since these qualifying rules were instituted, because he does not believe in the prcatice of sandbagging, and never has. Last season was the worst in his career in terms of qulifying, and this year his qualifying's even worse. But it's not because his cars are't fast, but rather becaue other teams are intentionally holding back in the first practice to get a better place to qualify in the Saturday sessions. And Mr X, I do not really follow road racing (except for the 24 Hours of Daytona), so I really don't know all that much about LeMans and the 24 Hour race there. But what little I do know includes those insane speeds you talked about that would often cause blowover crashes on that straightaway, the Mulsanne straight. 356. 10andJoe posted: 04.06.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Congrats are apparently in order for Josh Wise, 2012 Rookie of the Year. Timmy Hill is dropping out of the ROTY contest, so Wise can phone it in from here... and for the third consecutive seaseon will have a ROTY winner by default. Well, there's always the (infinitesimally small) chance somebody might make like Jimmy Hensley in 1992. But yeah, when I saw an article two weeks ago commenting on how "at least we have two drivers running for ROTY this year", my immediate thoughts, in order, were: 1. well we actually, technically had two in each of the last two years at this point in the season (Terry Cook in 2010, Brian K last year) and 2. don't count your chickens before they hatch... 357. Red posted: 04.06.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean (or anyone else), where did you find the data for most "dominated" races? I've been wanting those stats for years... In regard to the Earnhardt vs. Gordon debate, I think it's hard to be completely objective, even when you're earnestly trying. In a cultural sense, Dale and Jeff are basically polar opposites, representing two completley different groups of people. When asked who was better between the two, I'm betting nearly all fans will choose the man who they can relate to more, who they feel represents their values and their way of life. In a close debate like this in which there will never be an objective winner, it ultimately boils down to who we personally like more. It's a lot like people's voting preferences; the majority of citizens largely ignore the actual issues, and instead vote for the party that they have an emotional/cultural attachment to. At least that's the way I see it. 358. cjs3872 posted: 04.06.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Red, unless there is someone with a clear advantage over everyone else in terms of overall record, such as Jack Nickalus in golf with his 18 professional majors, it is difficult to determine who the greatest is in any sport when you're trying to compare the eras, whether it's an individual athlete or a team. The Gordon vs. Earnhardt debate is one of many. Another has to do with who the greatest baseball player of all-time is. I think it's Willie Mays. Others say it was Babe Ruth, the man who saved the sport amidst the worst scandal in the history of sports (the "Black Sox Scandal" from the 1919 World Series). Still others claim it's Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams. And still others say it might be one of today's stars. Another sport that has offered such debates in boxing. To me, Muhammad Ali was the greatest ever, but others will argue in favor of guys like Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey, and others have their backers, too. There's even an argument as to who the greatest bower is. Stats say that it is Walter Ray Wiliams, Jr., while most people, including myself say it was Earl Anthony. The point is that these kinds of debates will always take place, no matter the sport, because of the different eras involved, not to mention people (as noted by some of the user name tags) have their favorites and wilkl say that their favorite is the best, even if it's impossible for that to be true. I use a more balanced approach, using a combination of things as my guide, with no partiality towards anyone, which is how I view sports. I never rot for anyone, but rather for a good, competitive event, and let the best man or team win. In ranking who the best NASCAR driver ever is, I just use the facts as my guide, and weigh that toward a particular era of competitiveness. But in other sports, where the final score may not be as important as to determining the greatest player ever, I use other factors. For instance, I view Dick Butkus as clearly the greatest player in NFL history, despite always playing for losing teams, simply because he was his sport's most dominant player ever, a fact that I think will never change. In short, I always try to keep an open mind, and use a variety of factors when making up an all-time greatest list. 359. Rog24 posted: 04.06.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the hard compound that we see at Charlotte and other tracks mostly has to do with erring on the side of caution after all the tire issues they had there. We've seen a lot of that on bigger tracks where Goodyear brings a really hard tire to try to avoid problems, and many would argue that without the happy medium of fall-off and safety, the racing suffers. We wouldn't be seeing even close to 215 entering t1 at Charlotte with a softer compound tire. 360. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd be very interested to see what DaleSrFanForever has to say about it, as he's been so critical of Edwards in the past." Personally, I could care less about their personal lives. 361. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.06.2012 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "it is difficult to determine who the greatest is in any sport when you're trying to compare the eras, whether it's an individual athlete or a team. The Gordon vs. Earnhardt debate is one of many." "In regard to the Earnhardt vs. Gordon debate, I think it's hard to be completely objective, even when you're earnestly trying." Don't worry guys, I have a definitive answer on this "debate" that will be up as soon as it is moderated (it is long, so I guess they want to look at it). As soon as it is up, it will be put to bed. Stay tuned. 362. cjs3872 posted: 04.07.2012 - 1:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rog24, there's no doubt that the top speeds at Charlotte wouldn't be close to 215. The straightaways simply just aren't long enough. But they would be 200-205 and it's been proven that, with that much G-loading on a 1.5 mile track, that the tires just can't stand it. While the track itself was the issue in the 2005 races there, the problems that occurred in the 2004 fall race there was, I believe, a simple case of too much G-loading and the tires just not able to stand up to it. 363. Sean posted: 04.07.2012 - 3:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, I happen to be the webmaster of my own racing statistics website. It is I believe the third largest free site on the Internet (this is one of the two larger ones). I believe my site and this site have both had some influence on each other. This site is superior because its webmaster is a better coder than I am and I'm a lot more amateurish in some ways (especially with regard to visual design), and I have way too many other things I obsess over at times so I haven't even added much new since 2010 (besides updating current races). There are a few things I cover that this site doesn't (mainly sports car stuff) and there are a lot of things this site covers that my site doesn't (NASCAR besides Cup, exhibition races, Indy Lights, USAC pre-CART). We also keep track of slightly different statistics. I don't keep track of miles led/completed or lead lap finishes while this site does; I do keep track of the number of races a driver has led the most laps, scored fastest laps (where available - although it's amazing how hard this statistic is to find for even CURRENT Cup races), or led the points standings. I also invented a couple of my own statistics which I also keep track of... So I was able to query my database and instantly obtain that data in less than five minutes. There's a lot more stuff I want to add to my site, but I've just been lazy with it the past couple years... I'm not placing the link to my site here because that would be extremely tacky on a competing and more thorough website, but it's easy to find. I also have playlists for every Cup/CART/Champ Car/IRL/IndyCar race that was ever uploaded onto YouTube because I provide video links to my site, but I'm not linking that either for the same reason. I am not trying to spam. I have made many posts here and have not even mentioned my site. I only did so here because Red asked where I obtained that information. 364. JG24FanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 5:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean A+ website you got I especially love the stats for Fastest laps in Cup, it's great to finally see this somewhat illusive statistic, Joey Logano had the fastest lap at Sonoma last year, this must be his greatest Cup achievement. 365. Red posted: 04.07.2012 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, your website is very impressive. And your modesty is greatly appreciated, especially in this day-and-age of shameless plugs and product whoring. The two stats you present that I find the most valuable are "Races Led Most" and in particular, "Avg % Led." I've been using Excel to calculate this stat, but I don't know how to write code so it's been a laborious process to manually enter in all the data. Needless to say, I'm thrilled to see it presented in clean tables on your website. 366. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind. I will post my doctoral thesis on this topic in smaller parts. This was typed out last night. Luckily I copied and pasted it at the end of an old paper I did in college back in 2005 or something so I could use the Spell Check feature (they don't recognize "Bodine" as a word, I get a kick out of that). Somehow I saved it. Here it is, as typed last night: 367. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 12:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Alright JG24Fan and cjs, now that I am not sleep deprived and trying to figure out how to get prohibition re-constitutionalized, I will give a detailed response as to why Jeff isn't better than Dale. In fact, you might could argue he isn't even in Dale's league. 1) More championships: The Grand National/Winston/Nextel/Sprint Cup Championship is the number one determiner of a career. Especially since the modern era began. You can't just gloss over the fact Dale has 7 and Jeff has 4. And you can't say the cha$e devalued it at all. Just because the fans hate it. Everybody knows how the champion will be determined. You adapt to that. Besides, one thing that doesn't get enough talk is the fact that NASCAR's point system has had more facelifts than Michael Jackson did in his life. The King won 7 titles under 5 different systems of figuring points. We can't just pick and choose which ones mean more. Besides, Jeff SHOULD have many more championships than Dale if he were better. Why? Because of reason number.... 2) Career paths. Jeff joined HMS in 1993. Although they were struggling through their dreaded "Lumina Years", they were a high dollar organization with experience under their belt. That was HMS' 10th year on tour, and they immediately had success in their first year with one car ('84, 3 wins), their first year with 2 cars ('86, 9 wins), then their third year with 3 cars ('89, 8 wins). He stepped in to a damn good situation and has stayed there for what is now his 20th consecutive season. And that "damn good" situation became "the best" situation in '95 when Chevy reintroduced the Monte Carlo and HMS won the next 4 straight titles. They struggled a bit with consistency and speed in '99 and '00, but since 2001, 11 seasons, an HMS car or satellite has won 7 of those titles including a 1-2 points finish ('07) and a 1-2-3 points finish ('09). How could his situation be any better? Meanwhile Dale was given what, at the time, was considered a golden opportunity. As a 28 year old, he got to run his first Cup season with the high dollar Osterlund team. They were a second year team. Their first year was with Dave Marcis. It was good, but not as good as it looked. They were 5th in points. But that was mainly due to Dave's ability to get a car to the finish. They completed the second most miles that season, but only led 115 laps and had just 5 lead lap finishes. Dale took over the next year and definitely did not take it easy. He missed 4 races due to injury, but still finished 7th in points, led 650+ laps, won a race, and battled toe to toe with the vets. One year later, the second year driver with the third year team without a major sponsor won the whole damn thing. The biggest championship upset not won by an engineer from Greenfield, WI or a former Detroit taxi driver. The next 5 years were a write off. Osterlund bailed in '81 causing Dale to end up with then independent Richard Childress. The next two year were in Bud Moore's unreliable Fords with them DNFing in OVER HALF the race, the majority mechanically related, then he spent the next two years helping suddenly big time RCR get up to speed with the big boys. Only then was he with the team he would stay with. So at age 33 (and ultimately fate had his life ending at age 49) he was in the same situation Jeff was in at age 22. The fact that Jeff isn't miles ahead of Dale in win total is astonishing. The fact that Dale owns him so badly in championships is absolutely mind blowing. How is this even an argument? And it really isn't an argument when you consider a big reason for the lopsided championship totals is due to reason number.... 368. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 3) Closing ability. Jeff's inability to close seasons (something I initially defended before realizing I was wrong) is borderline horrifying. Even in 3 of his 4 championship seasons ('98 being the glaring exception) he sputtered pretty badly down the stretch. Then consider in 3 additional seasons ('96, '04, '07) he was seemingly in the catbird's seat only to watch somebody else win it (twice it was a teammate). Dale, on the other hand, was in legitimate Cup contention late in the season 8 times. Seven times he brought home the hardware, falling short only in 1989 (don't be fooled by his smoke and mirrors runner ups in '95 and '00). This HAS to be factored in, the ability to step it up when you absolutely have to. Isn't that what truly separates athletes? Otherwise we live in a world where Peyton Manning is a better QB than Joe Montana. We can't have that. 4) The Jimmie Johnson factor: Honestly, the real debate is whether Jeff is even better than JJ. Jeff brought in JJ (a no name at the time) in '02, gave him his old cars, and JJ promptly tied him in wins and finished just one spot behind the defending champ in points, even leading them at one point. He has finished ahead of Jeff in the points EVERY SINGLE YEAR SINCE, and surpassing Jeff's win total all but twice (they tied in '03, and Jeff edged him 3 to 2 last year) usually by a large margin. Nobody EVER owned Dale for an entire decade or even close to it. Imagine Richard, when starting his 2nd team in '97, for one actually doing it right, and secondly letting Dale have an investment in the team and bring in a driver of his choosing (in other words, somebody who was definitely not Mike Skinner), and that driver running Dale off the track in identical equipment. And this leads us to reason number.... 5) The Hendrick factor: Chronic cheating aside, HMS has been the model team for NASCAR. Their next win will be win #200. They have 10 championships and an 11th with a satellite team of theirs. If Jeff is the one to win their next race, it will be his 86th. In other words he will have 43% of their wins and 40% of their championships. HMS has been on the cutting edge ever since 1995 (except '99-'00 and '10-'11). 6 times Jeff has had to watch his own shopmates win the Cup. The list of other HMS drivers who, at one point or another, lit up the win column, won big races, or won championships: Jimmie Johnson, Mark Martin, Terry Labonte, Tim Richmond, Darrell Waltrip, and Geoff Bodine. RCR on the other hand, if you were to write a book called "The History of RCR", it would be more Earnhardt-centric than The Dale Trail in Kannapolis, NC. They just celebrated their 100th win in October 2011, 10 years and 8 months after Dale's passing. He has 67 of those wins. Go to Richard Childress' owner's page comments for my detailed outlook on how much of RCR's success is Big E's. They have been behind the curve since 1995. They were behind with the new Monte Carlo, they were behind on the infamous "5 and 5" setups, they were behind on the multi car explosion, when they did expand in '97 they did it all wrong running the two cars as two separate teams taxing their already limited resources plus they put Mike Skinner in the car. And in the years since they lost Dale, it has been some good moves mixed with various missteps including two more disastrous expansion efforts ('02, '09) and questionable driver hires like Robby "I Will Not Even Attempt To Hold My Temper" Gordon, Jeff Green (not Cup caliber), Casey Mears, Johnny Sauter, and Dave Blaney (God Bless him, but he isn't Cup quality). Since 2001, they have been a distant 4th best organization behind Roush and JGR who are distantly behind HMS. Not the greatest owner ever. Not even Top 10. And this isn't even considering Dale's first Cup owner and the guy he won his first Cup with, Rod Osterlund. He cared so much about NASCAR he just all at once walked away in the middle of 1981 despite owning the defending championship team, the sport's hottest up and comer, and sold it to shithead JD Stacy without any kind of clause like "don't break up these guys who made me famous". Considering his ill fated attempt at a return in the late 80s with the Heinz 57 car, it is safe to say he definitely was not Rick Hendrick. Again, how does Dale have 3 more Cups than Jeff? 369. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 6) Less winless seasons: In 22 seasons, Dale won races in 20 of them. Jeff has had 19 seasons (not counting this one). He has won in 16 of them. In his most recent two winless seasons ('08 and '10) his shopmate won. THE CHAMPIONSHIP! Jeff also never played musical owners in a winless season like Dale did in 1981 with Osterlund (in the process of bailing out), JD Stacy (a real shithead who dismantled the team), and Richard Childress (the 1981 equivalent of 2012 Joe Nemechek). 7) The 40 factor: Jeff turned 40 last year. He ended the season as a 4 time champion. The year Dale turned 40 he won his 5th championship. Considering Jeff began in Cup 6 years younger than Dale, and found his NASCAR "home" ELEVEN years younger than Dale, that has to sting. 8) Injury years: Both Jeff ('08-'10) and Dale ('97-'99) had 3 year stretches where they were derailed by a combination of injuries that made them uncomfortable in the seat and a rules package they couldn't get used to, most likely due to their respective injuries. In Jeff's injury years, he won just once while Dale won 4 times during his. Dale also had an additional 3 wasted years ('81-'83) trying to find a permanent NASCAR home unsuccessfully that Jeff never had to go through. In conclusion, if Jeff and Dale were even equal on track, then Jeff should be miles ahead of Dale in every relevant category by now since he will equal Dale's career starts by the end of the year due to his much better circumstances. But he is behind him in the most relevant category, and not too far ahead in the others. Any HMS driver's stats have to be taken with a grain of salt. Meanwhile, RCR's second most successful driver, Kevin Harvick, is pretty far behind a lot of his peers in numbers, yet gets much praise for making the most of what he has (I still say he is an underachiever). What does that tell you? 370. JG24FanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dsff Good argument,Hendrick Motorsports has enormous success but it's all JG and JJ, 9 0f 10 title's 140 of 199 wins, and Jimmie J has benefited vastly from Jeff being his "R&D" driver for all but his only finish outside the Top 5 in points in 2011,i've always seen Gordon as purposely taking a back seat for the success for the 48 since he's part owner and had already tasted giant success,every season that Hendrick was "off" 08' and 10' Gordon went winless probably because they were putting everything toward the 48 much as they do at Ferrari to have a better shot at ultimately winning the title which Hendrick and Gordon(Both their name's are on all 5 owner's trophies)definitely did in those season's. Jeff Gordon's bad luck as we saw at Martinsville this past event has a lot to do with why his win total hasn't reached a Hundred yet and I know there are plenty of example's for Earnahrdt too, but Gordon race's in an era where the team isn't HMS it's his Crew Chief and Car Chief and plenty of other factor's that Jimmie J has benefited from with the continuity(Ron Malec has been with him since 1997 in ASA)of that team,and Gordon has managed to win multiple times with all 5 crew chief's he's had, even Brian Whitesell. I'm gonna let cjs3872 take up the argument since I don't have the time or the energy or the proper argument but this should be a descent foundation to start with. 371. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.07.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCR drivers (that have raced full-time) 1. Dale Sr. (well duh, he be #1 forever) 2. Kevin Harvick (has underachived GREATLY) 3. Jeff Burton (Started off well but has tanked. Mostly not of his own doing) 4.Clint Bowyer (worked out for Richard) 5. Robby Gordon (for 2 of the 3 years he was there they stunk badly. 2003 they where actually doing well before the wheels fell off. Still has most RC wins for Richard) 6. Ricky Rudd (did well before moving on. Good hire) Note: the winning stops here 7. Dave Blaney (just a stop gap until Clint came up) 8. Jeff Green (Nationwide driver ONLY) 9. Steve Park (i like Steve alot but shouldn't have kept him after his injury) 10. Casey Mears (i don't even remember him driving for Richard. Concidering his season i can see way) 11. Mike Skinner (i'd REALLY like to know WHY Richard hired him) So 6 guys Richard has hired (full-time) guys that have won for him, 5 guys haven't. 372. cjs3872 posted: 04.07.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, DSFF, your championship argument gets shot down by the fact that Bobby Allison, who I also think was a better driver than Earnhardt, won only one championship (1983) despite having nine more victories. And I disagree with your theory about the championship not being devalued by the Chase. It has been enormously devalued by the Chase, because the Chase has made it so that to win the championship, as Tony Stewart proved last year, you only have to be excellent for the final ten races, mostly on mid-sized tracks, as well as missing the wrecks at Talladega, and not for the full season on every kind of track. That's why I belive that Jeff Gordon's championships would far outweigh Jimmie Johnson's championships even if Gordon didn't win another (and he's not going to) and Johnson reched 10, because Johnson never had to win a championship for a ful 36-race season, just the last 10. At least Stewart has a title when you had to excel in ALL the races back in 2002, so I put him on a higher pedestal than Johnson, plus he's more versatile than Johnson anyway. After all, Gordon would have six titles if not for the Chase, not the four he has and he'll end his career with. And yes, Petty won titles under numerous different points systems, but those points systems stil counted the points for ALL the races, not just a certain few, though the points were weighted to give the bigger events more points than the lesser events. Now, as for your second point about Hendrick not geting results from being one of the more heavily financed teams in the early 1990s, as they struggled with the Lumina. Well, they won three times (and it arguably should have been four) in 1991, with Ken Scrhader unbelieveably winning twice. I think we all forget one thing about HMS in the early 90s, and that is that for all the backing they had, they lacked one thing in those years, and that was an elite driver. Nothing against Ken Schrader and Ricky Rudd, but neither of those two were elite drivers. Rudd was a second-tier driver and Schrader was at least one notch below that. And by the time he got to Hendrick Motorsports in 1987, Darrell Waltrip was already a fading star, 1989 not withstanding, so even if theri cars were top notch, Hendrick did not have a top-notch driver in those years. It wasn't until Terry Labonte got there in 1994 (when they were still running Luminas) that Hendrick began to show what it could really do. Hendrick's Luminas won five times that year (three by Labonte and two BIG ones by Gordon) and finished fourth in the points with Schrader, who never finished in the top ten again. And one thing about Earnhardt getting to Rod Osterlund's team in 1978 was that it was a second-tier team that lacked only an elite driver to move up to the top tier, as it was the Penske team that had run Matadors from 1972-'75, winning five times, and was competitve in 1976, though it didn't win. When Penske decided to get out after the 1977 season, he sold his equipment to George Elliott, but he sold the team to Osterlund, with both Dave Marcis and the #2 going with the sale, so the pieces were already in place for them to become competitve. Earnhardt and Jake Elder were the last pieces to a championship-caliber puzzle. However, DSFF, you are dead on about several things, including Dale's ability to close out a season, while Gordon has a grand total of two wins in the season's final six races, excepting the 1998 season, so you are right about Earnhardt here. 373. cjs3872 posted: 04.07.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Now what was mentioned about the Jimmie Johnson thing in relation to Gordon not being up to Johnson in terms of performance has to do with just one man, and that's Chad Knaus. He saw to it, especially after the Hendrick plane crash late in 2004, that Johnson got all the preferential treatment at Hendrick Motorsports. Remember that many of those killed in that plane crash were there when Gordon was the dominant figure there. But with them no longer being there, Knaus basically took control of that entire organization from a competition standpoint, making sure that none of the other Hendrick teams could beat his, and used any means necessary to that effect, even sabotaging the other Hendrick teams. Is it any real surprise that Gordon's performance started to tail off badly when Knaus got more and more control of the competition aspect at Hendrick, and in retrospect, is it any real surprise that Gordon never eclipsed Johnson's win total for an entire season until after he got from under Knaus' control? I think not. Basically, Gordon had been racing for years with one hand tied behind his back in comparison to Johnson. You also mention that in Earnhardt's three down years frm 1997-'99, that he won four times to Gordon's one. But you forgot to mention that three of those four wins came on restrictor plate tracks, which is not a true test of driver ability, and he flat-out wrecked the leader on the last lap to capture the other one. And whlie Gordon didn't win buonce in those years, he was a much more consistent finisher, and in fact between his 82nd win at Texas in 2009 and the end of the 2010 season, he finished second eight times, and was third on numerous occasions, as well. So if Dale and Jeff were equal on track, and I think they were, it's just about what it should be. Earnhardt's got more championships, but the Chase has robbed Gordon of two (including one in which he had a staggering 30 top ten finishes and a 300-400 point lead most of the season), so that's not as one-sided as it appears. And Gordon is ahead of Earnhardt in almost every other major category, except top ten finishes, against stronger fields in terms of number of cars capable of winning than what Earnhardt had to run against during his peak years. But it is a compelling debate, and as I said, it's extremely difficult to compare stars of different generations, unless one has a clear advantage overall, and it's clear that neither Gordon or Earnhardt have a clear advantage over the other, so there are going to be legitimate arguments for either side. A higher win total, as well as having more top five finishes against stronger competition seem to give Gordon an edge there, but Earnhardt's seven championships, higher top ten total, and racing against the legends that built the sport give him an edge in the minds of others. Add that to the fact that these two are the sport's most compelling and polarizing figures over the last 30 years means that this debate will never truly end. 374. ii posted: 04.07.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that was definitely a very good argument. But, I have some coming right back at you. 1.) The 1980's had less competitive cars (and less cars overall) in each race. In 1980, Jody Ridley finished 7th in points. He had just 2 top-5s in the season. Only 7 full-time drivers won races, with 5 of them winning 3 or more races. 2.) They also didn't have a Chase in the Earnhardt era. Without the Chase, Gordon would have at least 6 championships at 40 years old, compared to Earnhardt's 5 at the same age. 3.) Today, NASCAR is a lot more sponsor-based. Without a sponsor, teams cannot run a full race (see all of the start and parks that show up every week). Back then, running races was a lot cheaper, and although the drivers earned less money, there were less races to run. 4.) Even though NASCAR is more competitive today, Gordon has more victories in his career. I know Earnhardt's career was cut short, but he couldn't get to 80 wins by 2003 or 2004 when he wanted to retire. Gordon already has 85 wins. He just isn't consistent enough anymore to win championships, and he has much tougher competition. 5.) RCR wasn't a 4-car organization when Earnhardt was winning championships. In fact, they never ran more than 1 full-time car until 1997, and that was well after Earnhardt was at his peak. Plus, Hendrick has had to provide equipment to multiple teams in the past several seasons. Childress only had to spend money on Earnhardt and his crew, and that's it. Today, Hendrick has to spend money on Gordon, Johnson, Junior, Kahne, Furniture Row, and Stewart-Hass, at the very least. 6.) Kirk Shelmerdine and Larry Mac are two of the best crew chiefs in the history of NASCAR. They led Earnhardt to victory numerous amounts of times. Evernham, Loomis and LeTarte weren't bad CCs, but they were nothing compared to what Earnhardt had. 7.) Jeff Gordon did better in change than Dale did. Jeff did very well in the Lumina Era, even as a rookie. Dale did win the '93/'94 championsip, but he was a veteran. 8.) Jeff beat Dale on the track. From 1993-2000, Earnhardt had 23 wins, 101 top-5s and 160 top-10s, with just 9 poles in this span. In the same time frame, Gordon had 52 wins, 139 top-5s, 166 top-10s, and 33 poles. In order to decide which is better, they'd have to use equal cars in a 1-on-1 race, but sadly this cannot occur. The Gordon-Earnhardt battle on who is better will remain a mystery for a very long time. 375. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greetings from Caraway Speedway! I'll rejoin thr debate late tonight, but for now, a reminder to support your local short track. Otherwise we will have a series of nothing but John Wes Townley's. 376. Red posted: 04.07.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I agree with all of your points except the biggest one: championships. Winning a championship involves tons of hard work and skill, but we can't dismiss the role of luck in who hoists the Cup at season's end. Dale benefitted from some very good fortune in his championship seasons, while Jeff almost certaily lost a few titles to bad luck. In 1991, Dale and his team did everything they could to throw away the title, only nobody was there to step up and take it from them. In almost any other year, that would have been a major choke job, but his only real competition (Rudd) gagged right along with him. In 1993, Dale's main threat was injured (Rusty) at Dega in a wreck partially caused by Dale himself. Despite scoring 10 wins that year, Rusty's season was badly derailed for a few months by the injuries he suffered in that crash. Rusty had more speed than Dale in 1993, and without the crash he probably wins the title. In 1994, Dale's only title threat (Irvan) nearly died in a practice crash in Michigan. Ernie's severe injuries sidelined him for the rest of the season, basically handing Dale the championship in a walkover. You could even argue that his 1980 title was a bit lucky, considering the almost comical amount of upheaval going on within the teams of his main competition. Jeff, on the other hand, unquestionably earned the four championships he won, and could've easily won in 1996, 2004, and 2007 if even a few small breaks went his way. I know it's a slippery slope to evaluate legacies based on what could've happened instead of what did happen, but in this instance I believe it's a warranted discussion. If a few breaks fall in the opposite direction, Gordon could easily have seven championship and Dale could have only four. Now, I still think Earnhardt was the slighly better driver, but not because of his championships. 377. Eric posted: 04.07.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ii, Your are underrating Evernham. Ray actually is a better crew chief then you give credit for. I argue that he was a great crew chief and the truth is Jeff Gordon was better under Ray than under any other crew chief he had. I thought Ray was better than Larry Mac. Your statement about Jeff being better than Dale on the track has flaws despite what the stats say. The first thing is you shouldn't have mention qualifying with qualifier before Jeff Gordon became a cup driver because that fact is false.Dale only had 22 poles in his cup career. Dale Earnhardt was never known as qualifier despite having 4 poles in a season 2 times in his career. Dale won so much because he was a hard charger. Dale matter of fact made the statement it isn't where you start, but where you finish. When people always looked at Dale was what he did on raceday and that is why Dale always been very high in ranks by people in terms of being the greatest NASCAR driver ever. The reason Dale qualifying average before 1991 mostly had starting averages 10 place or less in a season except for 1982,1984 and 1988 was based on how strong the field was. Dale was not the same league as drivers like Geoff Bodine, Darrell Waltrip, Elliott were in his era for qualifying. Dale Earnhardt from Summer 1996 to the end 1999 season was not healthy. Dale had injuries of Talladega that needed surgery including his neck, but he was so stubborn that he put off surgery before was forced to have surgery after the 1999 season was over. Dale from 1996 to 1999 actually suffered more than 1 injury including Atlanta 1999. That meant on the track, Jeff Gordon was facing an aging and banged up Earnhardt that wasn't healthy. The third thing is RCR was falling behind. RCR in 2000 was better than it was from late 1996 to end of 1999, but it was not on the same level as it once was. There is no way to tell how good Earnhardt would have been if he was healthy and RCR wasn't falling behind. The 4th thing is Dale was getting old as a cup driver. Cup drivers never won a title over the age of 45. Bobby Allison was the oldest driver ever to get a cup championship when he was almost 46 years old. While cup drivers are capable of being competitive into their 50's like Mark Martin showed in 2009, their best years as a driver are usually in their 20's or 30's. The exceptions the rule is Dale Jarrett, Lee Petty, Morgan Shepherd, and Harry Gant. The the later three did not became a full time cup driver before they were 35 years old or later. Dale Jarrett was an odd case of his pretty since he was a full time cup before he was 35 years old and he had best years in top notch equipment. 378. Bronco posted: 04.07.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Note: the winning stops here" You're forgetting Paul Menard's Indy win last year. He's very under rated, I wouldn't be surprised to see him win again this year at Talladega or at an intermediate track. Also I'd say Bowyer is better than Burton - more wins during the same time frame and better points finishes every year except his rookie season of 2006. Even going to MWR couldn't slow him down. My favorite Earnhardt stat is the fact that he won in FOUR different decades (70s, 80s, 90s, 00s) in totally different types of race car. The Earnhardt vs. Gordon debate is difficult to settle, but there's no question that Gordon is far better than Johnson. In fact I'd even say Johnson is slightly overrated. In all five of his championship seasons, he has never been the points leader after the Richmond race, but thanks to the magical reset button that is the chase, he gets the chance to catch up and hold a trophy after Homestead. Rather than being known as a five time consecutive champion, he should probably only have 2004, 2006 (barely) and 2009 as his title years. In all the other years he has benefited from the chase wiping out a triple digit advantage held by guys like Gordon, Edwards, Harvick. Not only that, but Gordon is far more versatile, having won tons of races at road courses and RP tracks. JJ has a grand total of 4 wins at those types of tracks. Also after his 5th chase win, Johnson hasn't even done a whole lot better than even Dale Jr. The driver who had won the previous 5 championships finished only one position and 14 points ahead of his teammate who was in his first chase in three years and who finished outside the top 20 in those off years ('09-'10). Not only that, but JJ finished behind his teammate in 6/10 Chase races last year. This year Jr is beating him on track despite a few mistakes on his part. I know Jr is behind JJ in terms of wins, but its worth mentioning that JJ isn't much better with only has 2 wins in his last 42 races, one of which had his teammate propel him to the win. 379. cjs3872 posted: 04.07.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Ii, Larry McReynolds was one of the best crew chiefs in NASCAR history? What are you, nuts? There's no question about Kirk Shelerdine's place in the hierarchy of great crew chiefs, but McReynolds doesn't belong in that company, despite two Daytona 500 wins and one Coca-Cola 600 win. After all, McReynolds only won 22 races as a crew chief. McReynolds got his reputation from his years with Davey Allison and later with Ernie Irvan in the #28 car, which won 16 times from 1991-'94 for McReynolds with Allison and Irvan driving. In fact, I'd put Andy Petree well above McReynolds in that regard. Petree won 25 races as a crew chief and another three as a car owner. And Ray Evernham probably ranks as one of the five greatest crew chiefs in NASCAR history along with Dale Inman, Leonard Wood, Shelmerdine, and Chad Knaus. In fact, Robbie Loomis has a better record than does McReynolds. After all, he accomplished the miracle of putting Richard Petty's #43 in victory lane three out of four years from 1996-'99. The #43 has not been to victory lane since Loomis moved to Hendrick in 2001, and Loomis won every major race at Hendrick with Jeff Gordon at least once, except the Coca-Cola 600. 380. 18fan posted: 04.07.2012 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCR swapping Kevin Hamlin and Larry McReynolds about a third of the way into the 1998 season I think is a very underrated move that they made that really turned around Earnhardt's season and he and Hamlin had much more success together than Dale and Larry Mac did, even in 1998. In the 13 races Dale ran with McReynolds in 1998 he had the Daytona 500 win, an 8th at Las Vegas, a 4th at Martinsville, and a 9th at Fontana as his only top 10s and only led Daytona, Talladega, and Martinsville for more than 2 laps. He had 2 top 5s and 6 top 10s his first 13 races with Hamlin. In recap: 13 races with McReynolds, 1 win, 2 top 5s, 4 top 10s First 13 races with Hamlin: 0 wins, 2 top 5s, 6 top 10s and they were more competitive on a weekly basis with Hamlin than with McReynolds. 381. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.07.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Back from a fun night with my buddies in the Uwharrie Mountains at Caraway Speedway watching the Southern Modifieds put on a hell of a show. Once again, support your local short tracks. Even if they are way out in the middle of nowhere (hidden secret of Bowman Gray Stadium's success: It is in a great area as far as population access, basically right in the middle of the city). Now on to the debate. For this, I would like to clear up some myths. Myth #1: Without the cha$e, Jeff would have won the 2004 championship. That one was all JJ's. He had a 230+ lead by mid summer. With no cha$e, they cruise into the sunset like Kenseth the previous year. Instead, they began experimenting realizing they had nothing to gain by having a huge points lead at that point. They blew 3 engines in a row. No way in hell that happens if it was a season long deal. Myth #1a: Jeff should be 2007 champion. Again, as much as I hate that stupid ass Brain (not a typo) France shitpile of an idea called the cha$e, the fact is that is how the champion is determined, and everyone knows it entering each season. It's not like it was suddenly sprung on Jeff right as it started. That is like saying the New England Patriots should be 2007 NFL champs. Should they? Of course not. 18-1! 18-1! (sorry for the editorial moment) As I've said earlier, we can't devalue cha$e championships. If we do, we enter a dangerous slippery slope where any championship can be picked apart. Do we devalue BP's 1973 Winston Cup because nobody has any freaking idea how points were awarded that season? Of course not. Myth #2: Since Bobby Allison only has one championship, we have to not pay as much attention to championship totals. This argument actually hurts Jeff's cause. Bobby just had one of those career's where he could never find a permanent home. He basically re-enacted Dale's first 6 seasons over and over again. Every team he was with, he either had the rug pulled out from under him (Mario Rossi, Holman Moody), clashed with the owner or crew chief (Cotton Owens, Junior, Waddell, DiGard, Harry Hyde), or simply didn't have the stuff to make a serious run either due to lack of funds (his own Chevy's, the Stavolas) or unreliable equipment (Penske, his own Matador's, Bud Moore). The fact that he has 85 wins is absolutely astounding and adds tremendously to his legacy. We all agree it is exceptional that he won so much despite being shuffled around like a deck of cards. Why? Because this establishes that moving from team to team tends to have a negative effect on one's career. How many times has Jeff switched teams? NEVER. This is 20 consecutive years, all of his Cup years. It took Dale 6 years to get settled, and Bobby NEVER got settled. If we are going to use the Bobby Allison situation (and I agree, it needs to be looked at), then that means Jeff should own the championship record. Bobby's situation taught us we have to look at their situations when considering their career numbers. Jeff is the bizarro Bobby. He has the perfect situation. More coming, I don;t want to exceed the text limit. 382. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.08.2012 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Myth #3: The championship disparity is mostly about luck. Again, Dale won 7 out of his 8 chances at the championship. Is that luck? 7 out of 8 sounds more like a trend to me. Did he catch some ggod breaks along the way? Of course. Do you know who else caught some good breaks? Every champion ever. Besides, for every good championship break he caught, he caught just as many bad ones. Mark got the 46 point penalty in the second race of 1990 (which I still say helped them more than it hurt, it kept them from going into prevent mode which Dale would have feasted on) which proved the difference in the end, but he lost it the previous year after 3 races of rotten luck not of his doing. A piece of metal broke 13 laps into the Charlotte race, Rudd wiped him out on the white flag lap at Wilkesboro, then Rusty took him out at Rockingham. Ernie's injury in 1994 eliminated his only competition (more on this in a second), but Dale's 1996 injury took him out of contention that year. Going into the summer Dega race, Dale was still right in the thick of the points race. Although RCR was behind on the Monte Carlo, considering Jeff's epic Fall choke and overall looniness of the stretch run, and considering Dale's closing ability, what if he were still in the hunt at the end? Myth #3a: Ernie definitely would have won the 1994 Winston Cup had he not got hurt. Going into Michigan, Dale actually was leading the points by 27 despite a recent Dega engine failure, and he and Ernie both had 3 wins. He crashed out of that race with Todd Bodine, but his next 8 finishes were 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 3rd, and 1st. I liked Ernie a lot, but do we know for sure he could have hung with that? I doubt it. Myth #4: Jimmie Johnson has held Jeff back at HMS. This is either a myth, or definitive proof that Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt don't belong in the same sentence. What do you think would have happened if somebody tried to hold Dale back at RCR? Dale would have stormed in, and through sheer force of personality had some changes made. Or else he would have taken his ass elsewhere like when he left Bud Moore because Ford wouldn't help them out like GM was helping their teams out (the same reason Bobby left after 1980) despite his tremendous respect for Bud. If Jeff has either sat back and allowed this to happen or has been unable to stop it then he deserves to be taken to the cleaners by the 48 the way he has and deserves to be taken out of any "best ever" discussion. He is Jeff Freaking Gordon. He could have either cut short any shit Chad or JJ was pulling at the bud, or left and found a nice home elsewhere. Period. 383. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.08.2012 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "And yes, Petty won titles under numerous different points systems, but those points systems stil counted the points for ALL the races, not just a certain few" Although they all were season long totals, his first few were won under systems that awarded way more points for the major races like the Daytona 500 and the Southern 500. So not every race always counted the same. A little cha$e-esque, no? Again, if we take away from cha$e championships, as much as that points system sucks, where do we stop? Do we go back and redo the points battles from the 60s with the Latford system? Do we redo the 80s points battles with the 1973 system (assuming any of us know how the hell they gave out points that year, which we don't)? It is a slippery slope we can't step to. "You also mention that in Earnhardt's three down years frm 1997-'99, that he won four times to Gordon's one. But you forgot to mention that three of those four wins came on restrictor plate tracks" Jeff also had 12 restrictor plate races he got to run during his 3 injury years, just like Dale. "7.) Jeff Gordon did better in change than Dale did. Jeff did very well in the Lumina Era, even as a rookie. Dale did win the '93/'94 championsip, but he was a veteran." This one is simply categorically false. Dale's first title was in the old giant sedans with the 115 inch wheel base on bias ply tires with no power steering. His second two came in the downsized, fast back Monte Carlos that had power steering (except for his '85 Bristol win lol). He won his last 4 in the Luminas during NASCAR's transition from bias ply tires to radials. Then, in the "aero is everything" era of the new Monte Carlo, he had two runner up points finishes (distant ruuner ups, but still) in '95 and '00. "8.) Jeff beat Dale on the track. From 1993-2000, Earnhardt had 23 wins, 101 top-5s and 160 top-10s, with just 9 poles in this span. In the same time frame, Gordon had 52 wins, 139 top-5s, 166 top-10s, and 33 poles." That is because Jeff hit his peak (as did HMS) right as Dale was hitting his low point due to injuries and RCR falling behind. If we use this logic, then we must conclude Carl Edwards is better than Jeff. It's true. 384. NadeauFan91 posted: 04.08.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As I've said earlier, we can't devalue cha$e championships. If we do, we enter a dangerous slippery slope where any championship can be picked apart. Do we devalue BP's 1973 Winston Cup because nobody has any freaking idea how points were awarded that season? Of course not." I think you mean Petty's 74 championship that was based on Purse Winnings multiplied by who the hell knows, point is, Petty finished 30th in one race and still gained points on everyone. 73 was based on finishing position and laps completed. Sounds good on paper, but in reality, not so much. 385. 10andJoe posted: 04.08.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >11. Mike Skinner (i'd REALLY like to know WHY Richard hired him) I'd presume 16 wins, 38 top tens (of 44 races!), 2586 laps led, and a championship in two Truck Series seasons might have something to do with it... The Truck Series hasn't turned out to be much of a feeder series for Cup, at least when it comes to its champions, who have an even less impressive record in Cup than Busch/Nationwide Series champs do (which takes some doing): - The Grand Triad of Trucks - Skinner, Hornaday and Sprague - wound doing precisely bupkis at the top level. Skinner of course had RCR but never quite pulled off a win; Hornaday did good with RCR in Busch but then made the horrific error of signing with A.J. Foyt, Destroyer of Careers, and the 14 car did for him what it did for everyone else: nada and goodbye. And the less said about Jack's Cup career the better, aside from his being part of the answer to a trivia question ("Name the drivers who competed for Stewart-Haas Racing before Tony Stewart bought it.") - Greg Biffle: The Grand Exception. - Mike Bliss and Travis Kvapil. Both have had Cup careers of no great account (Bliss also made the mistake of driving for A.J., getting canned after one race and four DNQs in the Conseco Crapwagon). - Hamilton, Musgrave, Bodine, and Benson (and Hornaday take III and take IV: all Cup retreads. - Austin Dillon: ??? 386. Eric posted: 04.08.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, I wouldn't called Greg Biffle the Grand Exception. Kurt Busch and Kevin Harvick got their start in the Truck series. Kyle Busch actually got his start in the truck series also before NASCAR got an age limit to prevent him from doing more Truck series until years later when he already became a cup driver. Kurt Brushmade the jump from trucks to Cup. He is the only driver that got his start in the truck series that later on got a cup championship. I don't know if you could label Bobby Hamilton Sr. in the same league as Todd Bodine, Jack Sprague, Hornaday, Benson and Mike Bliss. Bobby Hamilton sr. actually finished top 10 in points a couple times despite racing for 2nd or 3rd tier cup teams in his cup career. Bobby Hamilton Sr. is a driver that your have to wonder how good he would have been if he was with a team like Roush, RCR, Gibbs or Hendrick back in the 1990's. I know Hamilton was with Hendrick for a race in 1989 in the 51 car that was used for Days of Thunder. Bobby Hamilton Sr. gave the 43 car its first 2 wins for Petty Enterprises since 1983. Bobby also won for a fading Morgan-Mcclure team. The 4 team was hurt by multi team organizations and where their organization was located. Andy Petree was a mid pack at best organization that only had 2 cup wins and Bobby had one of them. Joe Nemechek had the other one. 387. 18fan posted: 04.08.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 1974 point system was as follows: Purse winnings multiplied by number of starts divided by 1000.(I've seen some sources say that the top 2 finishers in the Daytona 500 had their Daytona points added to their total after every race, but I am not sure if that is accurate and someone could confirm that for me it would be appreciated). Due to this, as noted in post 384, Petty finished 30th in the Southern 500 and scored more points than every driver except race winner Cale Yarborough. This led to the Latford system(which I believe should still be in use.) 388. Eric posted: 04.08.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, While it is true that Hornaday raced for RCR, that happened a couple years after he left Foyt. Ron was with DEI for the Truck Series and the Busch Series before being a full time cup driver in 2001. Dale wanted DEI to have a 3rd cup team for 2001 and wanted to stop running the Busch series team after the 2000 season. That meant Ron would be without a ride for 2001 and Dale wanted an experience cup driver for his 3rd cup team that went to Michael Waltrip of all people. Ron had to find a ride and the 14 car was open. 389. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.08.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Thanks guys. As much as I hate the cha$e, if we aren't going to scratch the 1974 Winston Cup points results completely from the record book (and we shouldn't) then we have to treat all championships the same. I guess the lesson from this is that no matter what the system is, the cream rises to the top. 390. LordLowe posted: 04.08.2012 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF I have A Dale Sr & Geoff Bodine question to ask of you. Geoff Bodine survived one of the worst crashes that was ever seen back on February 18 2000 and then on February 18 one year Later Earnhardt got killed in a crash that didn't look that bad why do you think that Bodine survived that brutal wreck while Earnhardt wasn't so lucky a year later in what looked like to the television viewer a minor looking crash. 391. cjs3872 posted: 04.08.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Yes, the cream always rises to the top regardless of whatever points system is used, and the points systems that were used in 1973 and '74 were indeed bizarre. And yes, the points that Petty got for winning the Daytona 500 and Cale Yarborogh got for finishing second in that samne race were counted in every single race after that in 1974. And David Pearson finished third, despite running less than two-thirds of the races because his points from his win at that season's opening race at Riverside were also counted in every race he ran that year. And in the race 18fan and NadeauFan91 brought up, the 1974 Southern 500, Petty actually finished 35th, not 30th, yet still gained more points than Darrell Waltrip, who finished second. That brought about the Latford points system, which either shuld still be used, or a derivitive of it should be used, in terms of giving more weight to the higher finishing positions. But my point has been that the championship should be decided by how a driver does in every race, not for less than a third of the season, because in racing, the true measure of a champion is how he does throughout an entire season on every kind of track. That's why I hold all the champions prior to the Chase in higher esteem than guys like Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch, who got the championship solely based on the last ten races. Now that's not saying that they couldn't do it for an entire season, as Tony Stewart has won it in both formats, but the guys who won the championship over a full season should be held in higher esteem than those who only had to perform for part of a season to win the championship. That's a reason why it's fitting that Jeff Gordon will never win a championship in the Chase format, because he's linked more to th champions of the past than the ones of the present. 392. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.08.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd presume 16 wins, 38 top tens (of 44 races!), 2586 laps led, and a championship in two Truck Series seasons might have something to do with it..." Just because Mike tore it up in Trucks doesn't mean he'd tear it up in Cup. And he didn't tear it up in Cup. Who is the better hire out of Mike and Robby? Robby is. Why? Cuz he won races (on tracks that require driver talent mind you). Mike is AT BEST, a N'wide driver. The Chase stinks but so did the Winston Cup system. If you critize the chase (or the Winston Cup system), then you might as well critize EVERY OTHER championship system NASCAR has used. I'd rather see them use best average finish (with the tie breakers being wins, top 5s and last lead and you have to run EVERY race). The first Chase system was the best one they had, the wild card idea i also like. But currently it just sucks (again as did the Winston Cup system) BTW Congrats to Bubba Watson on winning The Masters. 393. 10andJoe posted: 04.08.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Just because Mike tore it up in Trucks doesn't mean he'd tear it up in Cup. And he didn't tear it up in Cup. Who is the better hire out of Mike and Robby? Robby is. Why? Cuz he won races (on tracks that require driver talent mind you). Mike is AT BEST, a N'wide driver. Yes, that's very true. Now. But hindsight is 20/20, and at the end of 1996, Mike Skinner was considered a hot property, while Robby was Mr. Jack of All Trades but Master of None. 394. 10andJoe posted: 04.08.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I wouldn't called Greg Biffle the Grand Exception. From trucks in general, yes. From Truck Series -Champions-, on the other hand... === Eric - Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Whatever the reason though, Ron never recovered in Cup after his stint in the 14 car, where careers went to die... 395. Eric posted: 04.08.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing to look at Hornaday is Ron was a 42 going on 43 year old driver when he was a rookie cup driver in 2001. That means there was a limited market for him for cup teams and that is why Ron never went to cup again. Mike Skinner was a hot property despite his age at the time. Mike was going to be 40 years old June of 1997. Cup owners wanted to make the gamble with Mike because they thought he could have been a productive driver that win races like Harry Gant did. That is a move that a cup owner wouldn't make now because it is hard to sell a rookie that is going to be 40 years old at some point of the cup season to cup sponsors now days. Cup teams can sell a driver to sponsors for getting sponsorship only if they have a proven record a driver and has been successful in the cup series recently. 396. martin-n-rusty posted: 04.08.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 390 - The physics of the wreck. Bodine, while very violent looking, was rolling, and had parts flying off the car. Energy that is being dissapated. Earnhardt on the other hand, smacked the wall with one huge hit, and that was it. Not a lot of energy dissapation, and a driver really at risk. 397. martin-n-rusty posted: 04.08.2012 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And DaleSrFan, I agree. If you are going to poo-poo one system, why not do the same to the others. In the end, the drivers know what points system they are dealing with, and drive accordingly. Maybe, maybe not, Jimmie could still do 5 in a row, just everybody would be taking a different outlook and approach to the season. 398. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.08.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, martin & rusty hit on it. Geoff's wreck didn't have the one big traumatic hit, but several very hard hits that injured him badly, but thank the Good Lord it didn't kill him. The biggest key is that his car kept moving in the direction in which he wrecked, albeit in a twisting tumbling motion that was sickening to watch. Dale, on the other hand, came to (forgive the wording) a dead halt. His car kept sliding in a lateral direction, but he wrecked with his car going almost perpendicular to the wall, and it stopped all at once. That caused a huge traumatic impact to the car, and Dale. Since he wasn't wearing "that damn noose", but his torso was (mostly) still strapped to the car, the same thing happened to him that happened to Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, and Tony Roper. The dreaded basilar skull fracture. Basically, compare it to Dale's '96 Dega wreck. He also took at head on lick, but the car immediately rotated on impact and started flipping. Like Geoff's wreck. Therefore, like Geoff, he didn't have to absorb the entire impact. In '01, it just stopped, and he took all of it. 399. LordLowe posted: 04.08.2012 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF A lot of people blamed Ernie Irvan for the Crash at Talladega in 1996 that Injured Dale Earnhardt you are not one of those people that holds a grudge against Ernie for what happened that day. Any reason for this 400. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.08.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "But my point has been that the championship should be decided by how a driver does in every race, not for less than a third of the season, because in racing, the true measure of a champion is how he does throughout an entire season on every kind of track. That's why I hold all the champions prior to the Chase in higher esteem than guys like Jimmie Johnson and Kurt Busch, who got the championship solely based on the last ten races." Again, it has not always been the case that every race meant the same in the points standings. The 60s saw a system that rewarded the major races with a ton more points, and of course the '74 system. The Daytona 500 kept awarding points as the season progressed from what I understand (although I must admit I still don't totally get it). And as I said earlier, the cream rises to the top. Who has the most wins, Top 5s and laps led since 2002 by a mile? JJ. I don't see how anyone can object to the phrase "Jimmie Johnson: 5 time champ". Unless you want to bring up the fact his crew chief is a serial cheater, which unfortunately does work against him. But not the point system. "(and forgive me, I know pretty much nothing about golf and its history except Grizzly Adams had a beard and Phil Mickelson always shits the bed)" See, I do know a little about golf! 401. cjs3872 posted: 04.09.2012 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) DSFF, I never said that the points always was the same for every race. Obviously, that didn't start happening until 1975. What I was saying was that points for every race counted toward the championship back then. The odd thing is that Dale Earnhardt benefitted by the Latford system in more ways than one. Not only did he figure out that finishing up front consistently was the ticket to winning championships, but if the races had been weighted in Earnhardt's time like they were in Petty's time, I doubt he would have won seven championships, because drivers like Darrell Waltrip, Bill Elliott, Davey Allison, and others that won big races in championship years in which Earnhardt didn't fare so well in the big races, would have gotten more points in said races, and possibly overcame Earnhardt in the points that way. (Earnhardt would probably have won five championships, and might still have gotten to seven.) That said, I still would like to see the biggest events in the sport, the Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Southern 500, Coca-Cola 600 get more weight in at least deciding who makes the Chase and award double points in those races, and award the winers of those races double bonus points for the Chase, assuming they make it, which only one of the winners of those races last year did (Kevin Harvick in the 600). 402. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.09.2012 - 12:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, I don't blame Ernie. Yeah he made a mistake, but that is part of racing. It wasn't intentional. He tried to side draft off Sterling who was hung on the outside, got too close, and turned him into Dale. It happens. He wasn't intentionally trying to cause a wreck and especially wasn't trying to hurt somebody. Ernie took the heat because he was reckless on the track throughout his career. At MMM, they weren't quite up to speed with the top teams so he pushed the car for all it was worth, and often times went too far. He was a lot better in 1994 once he joined a top team, Yates, where he could run with the leaders week in and week out. But after his injury he wasn't the same. So to make up for what he lost, he once again started pushing too hard. So that is why Ernie takes so much heat for that. Compare that to Dale's 1998 Dega wreck that also turned him head on into the wall in the trioval and caused him to flip, this time burning him. Ward Burton was trying to get back in line, mistimed it, and hooked Dale. But Ward gets no heat for that because he has a clean on track record. 403. LordLowe posted: 04.09.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I understand DSFF it just seems to me that a lot of people hold a grudge against ernie for what he dale at tallagega that day in the same way that you hold a Grudge against Ricky Rudd for what happened at North Wilkesboro in 1989. 404. cjs3872 posted: 04.09.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, on Wind Tunnel last night, Tommy Baldwin, Jr., who owns the car that set off that wild finish, verified my opinion in the incident on the first GWC attempt by saying the Clint Bowyer was the one that caused that accident. Although he didn't call it a dumb move, I believe he implied that it was a bad move. In fact, he said that Clint Bowyer flat-out lied to Jeff Gordon (and the nation) about the incident when he said that Ryan Newman forced him to go low, but it's obvious what Bowyer did, and somebody finally called Bowyer out on that. And the fact that Bowyer blatantly lied about the incident, even doing so to Gordon's face does not bode well for his character. You don't go to a legendary figure like Gordon, "apologize" for the incident, and blatantly lie about what happened. Somewhere down the road, that's going to catch up with Bowyer. 405. 10andJoe posted: 04.09.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Likely in the form of a rainbow-colored bumper. === Texas entry list is out. 47 cars: #19 Bliss #21 Bayne #32 TBA #33 H. Sadler #37 TBA #74 Compton #95 Speed 406. Scott B posted: 04.09.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Initial entry list for Texas is up, 47 entries. Of note: 21 Bayne returns after a few weeks off 32 TBA (Terry Labonte would be the logical choice for Texas, but just a guess) 33 Hermie Sadler with Precon Marine sponsorship. 37 TBA (may be withdrawn) 74 Compton (has been listed this way before, expect Reed Sorenson to drive) 95 Scott Speed with TWD Drywall on the car, first attempt. 407. Scott B posted: 04.09.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops... 5 minutes too slow. :) 408. Anonymous posted: 04.09.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Since the NASCAR will be announcing the 25 nominees for 2013 NASCAR Hall of Class on this Wednesday, what new nominees you see being the ballot? 409. Eric posted: 04.09.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to put my name in post 407. The 5 new Nominees I see being on the 25 person ballot is Ralph Seagraves, Ralph Moody, Rex White, Smokey Yunick, and Ray Hendrick. The only reason I didn't pick Rusty Wallace is because Rex White is the oldest cup Champion that isn't on the NASCAR Hall of Fame ballot. I picked Ray Hendrick because Red Farmer still races despite his age. Ray was one of the great modified drivers in NASCAR history with over 700 wins. Ralph Seagraves is on my list because He was involved with Nascar before Wayne T. Robertson was. Ralph was responsible for saving race tracks and bringing in sponsors for NASCAR teams including bringing Piedmont Airlines to Richard Childress. Smokey Yunick was my choice for 3 reasons. He was the first crew chief to have 2 cup championships besides having 57 wins. The 2nd reason is Smokey Yunick was a Master at innovation in his era being called the greatest mechanic ever in his era. The 3rd reason is Junior Johnson is in the Hall of Fame despite being a well known cheater in his era as a car owner and that basically opens up anyone that is great at cheating can get into the NASCAR Hall of Fame. I have Rex White on this ballot for 2 reasons. He is the only cup champion before 1984 not named Bill Rexford not on Nascar Hall of Fame Ballot or not into the Hall of Fame. The 2nd reason is Rex is the oldest Cup Champion as a driver still alive. 410. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.09.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The deal with Rudd in '89 is that I feel there was intent there. Dale and Ricky had an on track history for a while before that, culminating with that race one year earlier when Rudd bumped Dale out of the way for the lead, and Dale turned him in the next corner. Afterwards Ricky made a comment about how he was gonna cost Dale the championship for that (he was all but out of the '88 battle by that point. Fast forward one year and Ricky gets to catch up to Dale (who is right in the thick of championship contention this year) on a late restart, and while taking the white flag pulls all the way down to the pit wall, then just drives straight into Turn 1. He is in Dale's door before they even get to the turn. So I think that one was intentional. That is why, when you are a championship caliber driver, you need to avoid scrapes with those who are not championship caliber. 411. 18fan posted: 04.09.2012 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, does 1989 Wilkesboro pain you even more because Geoff Bodine won the race? I know the biggest pain is because it cost him the championship that year. 412. cjs3872 posted: 04.09.2012 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#408), the five I see would be Rusty Wallace (if he's eligible, which he hasn't been previously), Smokey Yunick, Herb Nab, or Ray Fox (one of those three should be the next mechanic/crew chief chosen to be a finalst), Chris Economaki (a media member should eventually be chosen as a finalist, and only Economaki or Bud Lindemann should be the first media member elected into the Hall of Fame), Rex White, and Ralph Seagraves (for the reasons you mentioned). And you mentioned, 10andJoe, there might be payback coming Clint Bowyer's way as a result of the end of the race at Martinsville coming in the shape and color of a rainbow (or flame) colored bumper. Let's not forget that it might also come in form of a black and blue bumper (as in the #48 car). We've not heard the last of this, I can guarantee that. And let's not forget Tony Stewart and Ryan Newman in all that. I don't think Newman's happy to be lied about, and Tony Stewart's got the mindset that "if you mess with my teammate, you mess with me", much like Kevin Harvick a couple of years ago in the Chase. I don't think Stewart's too pleased about his teammate being lied about either and might seek retribution, as well. 413. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.09.2012 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As much as I never liked Geoff, that he won that race doesn't really bother me. It is the lost championship. 414. LordLowe posted: 04.10.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF which incident with Ricky Rudd was worse what he did to Earnhardt at North Wilkesboro in 1989 or what he did to Gordon in 1994 at Charlotte. 415. cjs3872 posted: 04.10.2012 - 11:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, what happened late in the 1994 fall race at Charlotte was far worse because of the speeds involved, and because of the obvious intent involved. After all, what happened in the 1989 race at North Wilkesoboro hapeened with the cars slowing down entering turn one at about 100 MPH, with Rudd trying to get inside Earnhardt, while what happened Charlotte happened with the cars still accelerating, and at about 190 MPH with Rudd flat-out pushing Gordon down a not-so-straight straightaway. It's pretty obvious which of the two incidents was more serious and blatant. 416. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.10.2012 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They were both intentional. As cjs said, the Charlotte deal could have been deadly. He cost Dale a championship, but he could have ended Jeff's career or worse, costing him 4 championships. So I have to say the Charlotte wreck was worse. No excuse for that shit. And his interview... just ugh. I don't even have the words for it. But each story has a happy ending. The only two times Ricky wasn't already out of championship contention by the summer ('91, '01), the Winston Cup went to, wait for it.... wait for it.... Earnhardt and Gordon respectively. Not only that, those were Dale's and Jeff's weakest championship years. They each had at least 3 seasons that were better where they DIDN'T win the Cup (Jeff in '96, '04, '07 and Dale in '88, '95, and ironically '89). In fact, each time Ricky was badly beaten. Ricky's A+ effort couldn't even touch Jeff's B effort and Dale's C- 417. cjs3872 posted: 04.10.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Trust me, DSFF, Gordon's 2001 championship might have been his weakest championship season, but except for Jimmie Johnson, no other driver since 1994 has had a championship season equal to Gordon's 2001 season, so I wouldn't exactly call his 2001 season weak. And ironically, when Rudd had his two closest brushes to championships, he lost to teams he had driven for earlier in his career. In 1991, when Rudd lost to Earnhardt, the team he was competing against was the one that replaced Rudd with Earnhardt, and in 2001, when Rudd challenged for most of the season before both he and Robert Yates Racing teammate alternated bad races when Jeff Gordon was dominating Pocono and winning Indy and Watkins Glen, the team Rudd was facing was the team he had driven for in 1991, Hendrick Motorsports. In fact both Yates cars stumbled so badly in the second half of the 2001 season that neither finished in the top three in the final standings, as Tony Stewart rallied to grab second and Sterling Marlin held on for third. And I've said this numerous times as well. Jeff Gordon would never have become the driver he became, at least not that early in his career, if Rudd had not left Hendrick Motorsports, which opened the door for Terry Labonte, who was always a much easier guy to get along with than Rudd, and with a multi-car team, that's almost as important than on-track performance. Rudd was never a team player (as evidenced by his blow-up at Yates in 2002), while Labonte's easy-going personality fit perfectly within a multi-car team. In fact, it could even be argued that the downward spike in Hendrick's performance in 1990-'93 can be directly atributed to Rudd's being there, and the possible cancer he might have been to the other drivers there. Remember that Hendrick won eight times in the year before Rudd got there and five in the year after he left. They won a total of six races in the four years he was there. That can't be a coincidence. 418. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.10.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff's 2001 was spectacular. I'm not disputing that. I just have it ranked as his 7th best season, just like I have Dale's '91 ranked as his 11th best season. I guess that just shows how good they both are. And yeah, it is ironic he got beat twice by his old teams. It is also fitting that Rudd gaggeg badly down the stretch while his competitors had comparitively weak endings to those respective seasons. 419. cjs3872 posted: 04.10.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, in 1991 Rudd was the only one of the major contenders to badly gag down the stretch and even lost second place to Davey Allison after Allison's win at Phoenix, but got it back at Atlanta. However in 2001, Rudd had company as teammate Dale Jarrett, who won the championship in 1999, gagged as badly as Rudd did during the very same stretch of races, if he didn't gag even worse than Rudd did. After all, entering the middle of July, the 2001 championship was a real three-way race between Gordon, Jarrett, and Rudd. But at Pocono, Indy, and Watkins Glen, the tide turned as fast as it ever has to my memory. Gordon dominated Pocono and won at Indy and Watkins Glen. At the same time, Rudd and Jarrett took turns having major problems. Jarrett had a bad race at Pocono, where Rudd had won earlier that season, then Rudd had a bad race at Indy, then Jarrett had a nightmarish race at Watkins Glen. As a result, it went from a tight three-way race to a Gordon runaway in just three races, as he built up a 200+ point lead in just those three races, which eventually grew to more than 300. After that, Gordon simply had to coast the rest of the way, and just finish races, which he did, even throwing in a win at Kansas, making the winning pass on Rudd in the process, just to prove the point, as Rudd was, at the time, still Gordon's closest pursuer in points. But both Robert Yates Racing teams stumbled so badly that Tony Stewart and Sterling Marlin eventually passed both of them to finish second and third in the final standings, though neither were in the same county as Gordon when all the points were counted up. 420. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.10.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Davey was strong but inconsistent down the stretch, while Dale was consistent but not strong. If Rudd was ever gonna win it all that was by far his best chance, but he couldn't do it. The key to that battle was the Fall Charlotte race when Dale blew up, finished 25th, and gained points on Rudd who crashed out earlier. 421. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.10.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well appearently Skip Bias (i mean Bayless) is in hot water. He lied about his past and former Fab 5 guys Jalen Rose (i respect him for being a UofM grad, DSFF bleeds Carolina blue, i bleed Maze and Blue. You can take a blood sample DSFF :-P) called him out on it and Skip got uncomfortable about it. Well this makes ESPN look REALLY good.............................NOT. How many other of those jacka$$es on ESPN have lied about their past? I've said this on here before, the ONLY things i agree with Skip on is Tim Tebow and LeBron James, other then at (to borrow a line from the UK version of Top Gear) an infantile pillick. 422. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.10.2012 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol Smokefan, I just saw the YouTube video of Jalen pwning Skip. You could see how mortified he was when Jalen said 1.4. I've never cared for him either. I haven't watched that show in forever. With my work schedule (7pm - 7am) and trying to maintain the stay up late (until about 3am) and sleep til noon deal on days off, First Take is always during sleep time for me. But that was funny. I'll never forgive him for all the low blows he took towards Troy Aikman, lowlighted by his constant claims that Troy is gay. I've never given a damn about the Cowboys and find Troy's commentating to be sub standard, but right is right and wrong is wrong. From now on he is Mr 1.4. Although I must say, although I have the utmost respect for the University of Michigan and their athletics, I have never cared for the Fab Five. They take too much credit for bringing the playground into mainstream basketball. The truth is the path was laid for them by Ewiing's Hoyas, UNLV, and individuals like Michael Jordan, Len Bias, David Thompson, and Dominique. Even their black shoes were pioneered by (of all people) Red Auerbach for the Celtics in the late 50s cause they didn't show dirt. Their claims of being pioneers is way overblown. 423. cjs3872 posted: 04.10.2012 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, there was no way Rudd was ever going to catch Earnhardt in 1991, especially after the fall race at Dover. That was Rudd's big chance late that year. Earnhardt had a mechanical problem early in that race (I believe) and lost 50 laps getting it fixed, while Rudd wound up finishing seventh. But there was a huge crash that involved about half the field that erupted while Earnhardt was either in the garage area or at the very back of the field that eliminated many of those that could've finished between Rudd and Earnhardt. As a result, while Earnhardt finished that race 53 laps behind winner Harry Gant, who lapped the field (also largely due to that crash), Earnhardt finished 15th in a race where he would normally have finished 25th or worse. They say it takes luck to win a championship. You point to the race at Charlotte a few weeks later, but believe that race at Dover was an even bigger factor because Earnhardt finished 10-15 places higher than he should have, given the circumstances. Dave Marcis finished tenth, ten laps behind in that same race and Dick Trickle brought the Team III Racing car home four laps behind in sixth, easily that team's best-ever finish. Even Rudd, who finished seventh, was seven laps behind at race's end that day. A Kyle Petty, who crashed out after completing 470 laps, was still credited with a 12th place finish. In fact, that race was so brutal on equipment that only 18 of the 40 starters completed at least 400 laps and only 16 were running at the finish. And by the way, the 1991 fall race at Dover, had four start-and-parks, as we call them now, so the start-and-park is hardly a new phenomenon. It's actually sonething that goes back to the early and mid-1960s. But the fact that Earnhardt could finish 15th in a race in which he spent 50 laps or ten percent of the race, in the garage area should have told everyone right then and there that he had the championship effectively locked up. It also showed the strength of the Richard Childress Racing team of that era, which has always been greatly overshadwed by Earnhardt. After all, can you imagine a race today in which a team spends ten percent of the race in the garage area and still winds up in the top 20? 424. cjs3872 posted: 04.10.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (#422), you forget about guys like Dr. J, Connie Hawkins, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, and countless others that paved the way for those guys you mentioned. 425. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.11.2012 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good point cjs, I forgot about that race. Although Dover races back then were usually crash fests, that was an extreme example. He was lucky to finish that high up. And as usual Ricky didn't step up. Can't believe I forgot to mention Dr J. He was Jordan before Jordan. 426. 10andJoe posted: 04.11.2012 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Texas entry list update: Reed Sorenson in the #32. 427. 10andJoe posted: 04.11.2012 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) also, bad news: Trevor Bayne's Nationwide team will not be competing at Texas. 428. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.11.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After that Dover race, Dale's points lead dropped to just 36 points. He pushed back to 59 with a 3rd at Martinsville, and then poetic justice happened. In the Fall Wilkesboro race, the same event Rudd took Dale out of 2 years earlier, Dale won while Ricky stumbled to a 12th place finish moving his lead to 112. Then came the Charlotte race I have discussed ad nauseum where Dale pushed his lead to 138, then they ran Rockingham where Dale could only manage a 7th place finish, yet gained points again, his lead was 157 with two races left. The three races that did him in in '89 pushed him to championship #5 in '91. All this while not putting forth his best effort (even his win was because Harry Gant, going for his 5th consecutive win, had his brakes fail and Dale only led 9 laps, the second fewest laps led in any of his wins). 429. Scott B posted: 04.11.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Trevor Bayne's Nationwide team will not be competing at Texas." I wonder if that will become the pattern for the weekends where Trevor is running the Cup event... to do one or the other, but not both? If so, that would be OK under the circumstances. I'd hate to see him have a weekend where he got no seat time in either series, though. 430. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.11.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate to see that for Trevor. Hopefully he will find a team that can actually find sponsorship fo such a talented driver with tons of potential and a genuinely great guy. 431. LordLowe posted: 04.11.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Dover did you know that Ricky Rudd is the only driver to have won on both the asphalt and concrete surfaces there 432. cjs3872 posted: 04.11.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, DSFF, in the curious case of Trevor Bayne, could it be "three strikes and you're out", because this is the third time this has happened to him. It happened to him when he was a development driver for DEI, then it happened at Michael Waltrip Racing, and now woth Roush, at Texas of all places, the site of his first Cup start and first Nationwide Series win. And although he'll still be in the Wood Brothers' car this weekend, you begin to wonder how long that will last? With Roush having his fingerprints all over the Wood Brothers' team, and with Bayne lacking sponsorship for Roush's Nationwide Series team, you wonder just how long Bayne will be in the #21 car, which Roush and Ford tried to get him out of during the off-season anyway to put Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. in to get him Cup experience for 2013, so Roush could put him in the #6 car for next year, or in the #21 car next year. Frankly, this situation is something I predicted last year would happen, and this, I believe is the first shoe to drop the Bayne/Stenhouse/Roush/Wood Brothers situation. I think there's a very good chance that at mid-season, Bayne will be out of the #21 car, due to Roush's sponsorship issues concerning Bayne. To me, Bayne is just one of these star-crossed drivers, much like Donnie Allison and Charlie Glotzbach were in the 70s, that seem to be destined for nothing but hard times and a shortened career because of issues out of his control. In fact, I look for Stenhouse to be in the #21 car by the Brickyard, or perhaps earlier (maybe as early as the Firecracker 400, or even as early as Charlotte SpeedWeeks in May, though that's unlikely), with Bayne simply sitting out the rest of the season when he gets ousted by Roush for sponsorship reasons. Bayne seems to be carrying a curse of some kind. 433. cjs3872 posted: 04.11.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) However, I appear to be proven wrong about Bayne not being in the All-Star Race (as well as possibly being out of the car by Charlotte SpeedWeeks, which was about a 1% possibility anyway), as it now appears that Bayne and the Wood Brothers will compete in the All-Star Race, which the Wood Brothers won in 1996 with Michael Waltrip. As well as they ran in the fall race at Charlotte, threatening to run in the top five (which would have made them a dark horse to win) before fuel pressure problems dropped then back to a 31st place finish, he could be a sleeper pick to run with the leaders in the All-Star Race, considering his only Nationwide Series win came last fall at a similar track in Texas (he also very nearly won the Nationwide Series race at Charlotte last fall, as well). But this is one thing I'm glad to have been proven wrong about, as I had predicted that he would not be in the All-Star Race. But I still think his ride in the #21 car could be in serious jeopardy by July or August. But only time will tell. 434. Eric posted: 04.11.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, What is your take on the 5 new names on the 2013 Nascar Hall of Fame Ballot? The new names are Annie B. France- Brian France's Grandmother and Stock Car Racing Executive Ray Fox Wendell Scott Ralph Seagraves Rusty Wallace 435. cjs3872 posted: 04.11.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Eric, I don't know that Anne France should have been nomimated, nor do I think that Wendell Scott should have been nominated (at least right now), but I actually predicted that the other three might be. Rusty Wallace was an obvious pick with his 55 wins, 1989 championship (and All-Star Race win that same year), and while others mentioned Smokey Yunick, I was the only one to mention Ray Fox, because he had just as big an impact. Remember that Fox built the car with which Junior Johnson not only won the 1960 Daytona 500 with, but also was the car with which Johnson was credited with discovering the effects of the draft with. Fox's white #3 cars also won with the likes of Buck and Buddy Baker. Buck Baker scored his final win in the 1964 Southern 500 at Darlington and three years later his son Buddy scored his first of 19 wins in the fall race at Charlotte in the same white #3 car, duplicating that win in the rain-plagued 1968 World 600. And Ralph Seagraves joined fellow RJR representative T. Wayne Robertson on the list of nominees for the Hall of Fame. However, I would have liked to have seen Chris Economaki get nominated. As I said, if any media members ever do get selected, Economaki should be the first to get in, because three generations of race fans grew up with him calling the action in the pits from 1961-'94, and ocasionally in the booth on those tape-delayed ABC Wide World of Sports broadcasts. And after Economaki, the next racing commentator to get in should be Bud Lindemann. Auto racing journalism and commentary wouldn't be what it is today without Lindemann, who created and hosted a show about racing (Car and Track) for seven years during the sport's glory years from 1968-'75. Lindemann also narrated the official film for the Indianapolis 500 from 1977-'79 and was at the grand opening for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame with Tony Hulman in 1976. And Ken Squier should be the third commentator to get in, but not the first. Like Economaki, Squier was also on that ABC Wide World Sports telecast of the first-ever NASCAR race shown live flag-to-flag in 1971 (won by Bobby Isaac), along with the legendary Jim McKay, who's type we need more of in sportscasting today. 436. Eric posted: 04.11.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My take on the new five on the ballot is the following: I thought Ray Fox actually is a great pick for the Ballot. I wouldn't be shocked if I see him get into the Hall of Fame after Leonard Wood gets in. Annie B. France shouldn't be on the ballot yet. All the information I got on her is she took care of the financial side of racing for Brian's Grandfather besides being the secretary and treasurer of NASCAR. I really think she is on the ballot for this class because of her last name. If there is going to be a female into the NASCAR Hall of Fame right now, it should be a driver. NASCAR had female drivers in the late 1940's to early 1950's before Janet Guthrie raced in NASCAR. Nothing again Annie, but there has to be politics involve if she gets in this year. Wendell Scott is a hard case to judge because his stats say one thing, but he had big impact in NASCAR back in the 1960's. As a driver, he doesn't belong in there based on stats. He is on the ballot because of the fact is the first black NASCAR Driver and that does need to recognized. He faced problems including racism and that did play a role in why his stats are the way they are. I really don't know what Class he will be in or he will into the hall of fame because his stats aren't there for going to the hall of Fame. Ralph Seagraves is an excellent choice. He played a big role in NASCAR getting Tracks and teams Sponsors. He was one of the people responsible for the growth of NASCAR. I didn't know when he gets in, but he should get in before Wayne T. Robinson. Rusty Wallace is great pick for the ballot. I don't think he gets in yet because of the fact the history of the voters so far. The voters want the old people into the Hall of Fame while they are alive and is one of the reasons Bud Moore got in already. The other reason is there still are still cup drivers still not in the Hall of Fame despite having 2 cup titles. I expect Rusty to get in Once Herb Thomas, Buck Baker, and Tim Flock are in. 437. Eric posted: 04.11.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the 2013 class is going to be Herb Thomas, Buck Baker, Cotton Owens, Leonard Wood, and Jerry Cook. I have Cotton Owens getting in because he is still alive despite being in his late 80's. That means he needs to get in so he can enjoy his moment into the Hall of Fame. Cotton was one of the great modify drivers of the 1950's besides being an owner. I have Jerry Cook going in because since his rival Richie Evans is in the Hall of Fame. I mentioned that because it would sound like a double standard to me otherwise. Herb Thomas and Buck Baker really get in now because Rusty Wallace is the only cup driver with more wins than those two do. I don't have Wendell Scott because he is tricky in terms of why he should get in and why he shouldn't. I got a lot of respect for what Wendell Scott, but his stats really aren't hall of fame worthy. The problem I have if he gets in at this point is people will claim since Scott is the Hall Fame, why Dave Marcis isn't in since Dave has more wins. 438. Baker posted: 04.11.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish cjs3872 and DSFF had their own Nascar TV show. 439. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.11.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My personal Gordon power rankings: 1) 1998 2) 1997 3) 2007 4) 1995 5) 1996 6) 2001 7) 2004 440. 10andJoe posted: 04.12.2012 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #439 - the thing is to remember it's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of STATS. 441. 10andJoe posted: 04.12.2012 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #436 - perhaps Ethel Mobley? 442. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I wish cjs3872 and DSFF had their own Nascar TV show." I think you have something better. You can read our dialogue here at your own convenience without having to sit through 15 worth of commercials for crappy ESPN programming, pickup trucks, and pecker pills. Although I'm sure we could have some fun vignettes of cjs practicing his backflips! 443. 10andJoe posted: 04.12.2012 - 12:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ What about MRN Radio? Texas entry list update: the #37 has withdrawn. 444. 10andJoe posted: 04.12.2012 - 12:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another Texas entry list update: Tony Raines is now listed in the #33 445. NicoRosbergFan posted: 04.12.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can we all pull together to give one of the all-time greats one last chance to be happy? Fred Lorenzen has Alzheimer's and family are asking that NASCAR fans vote Fast Freddie into the Hall of Fame because his memory is fading quickly and they want him to be able to be get one last memory before his memory is too far gone. Let's vote Fast Freddie into the Hall of Fame! Can we do that civilly? 446. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lorenzen deserves to be in regardless. But yeah, that would be sweet for him. Btw, is Fireball Roberts on the ballot? Like Lorenzen, he lacks a conventional resume because he drove in the 60s when the championship wasn't the top priority, winning races, especially the big races, meant the most. Of course we also have to get Buck Baker and Joe Weatherly, both two time champions in. Weatherly doesn't get enogh credit historically. He died in a race at Riverside as the two time defending champ. And what about Pops? He deserves to be in. 447. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Pops, I was looking up some stats, and in the Convertible Series (hugely popular at the time) in 1956, Pops won TWENTY TWO races out of 47 (he only entered 42) and finished second in points to some guy with just 3 wins (and entered just 3 more race). Cjs, remember how I said we can't ignore any method of determining a champion? I lied, we can ignore that one. 448. cjs3872 posted: 04.12.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, 1956 must have been a huge year for Turner, because in addition to all that you mentioned, 1956 was also the year that Turner won the Southern 500 at Darlington. But from what I've heard, Turner was the kind of driver that would either win, or fail to finish, so how do we know that Turner did not fail to finish a great number of, if not all the races he didn't win the Convertible Divison that year. And if he failed to finish 20 times, he doesn't really deserve to be the champion, no matter how many races he won. Remember that in 1961, Ned Jarrett won only once in about a 50-55 race season, but he always finished among the leaders, and won the championship as a result. Winning championships is not just about winning races, but who finishes among the leaders the most often. That's the guy that truly deserves to be champion. And that is why the Chase devalues the championship, because you don't have to do well for the entire season and finish among the leaders more often than anyone else for an entire season, but just for a select few races. 449. Eric posted: 04.12.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever. Fireball Roberts is on the Ballot and so is Pops. 450. Anonymous posted: 04.12.2012 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hate to see that for Trevor. Hopefully he will find a team that can actually find sponsorship fo such a talented driver with tons of potential and a genuinely great guy." Maybe he should just pray for sponsorship. That always works, right? 451. 18fan posted: 04.12.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel Benny Parsons deserves to be in the Hall of Fame as does Herb Thomas. Thomas won 3 of the first 6 Southern 500s, was a 2-time champion, had a great winning percentage(48 wins in 228 starts), and, at the time of his career-ending injury in 1956 at the hands of Speedy Thompson under orders from Carl Kiekhaefer(I know Thomas started a few more races after 1956, but that was the end of him being competitive), he was the all-time career wins leader with 9 more than Tim Flock. Also, he won 40 races on dirt, which was the majority of the schedule in those days, and at the end of 1956 Buck Baker had 24 and Lee Petty, the all-time dirt track win leader, had 25. This class seems to be one of the toughest to pick of all of them because nobody really stands out as an absolute lock, but there are a lot of really solid candidates. 452. cjs3872 posted: 04.12.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#450), that might be one of Trevor's problems right there. There are many people, and as a result, many sponsors that won't touch a guy like Trevor Bayne with a 10-foot pole, because of his deep religious beliefs, and the way he displays them publicly, no matter how talented a drive he might be. Just look at how many people dislike Tim Tebow, who's exactly the same in that regard, and how his religious beliefs, and how he displays them has een a major reson why he may be the most polarizing figure in the NFL today. That may also be what is holding Trevor back as far as finding sponsorship is concerned. A lot of potential sponsors may simply want no part of a guy that displays his religious beliefs the way Trevor does. 453. JG24FanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All-Time Curtis Turner stat in the convertible division him and Little Joe weatherly finished 1-2 24 times, Turner won all 24 of those. Turner was the first superstar not Fireball Roberts, it's just that turner gets black-balled because of the Teamsters incident. Curtis Turner was the first Nascar driver ever on the cover of Sports Illustrated for a reason and his real legend gets lost to history because he passed away in 1970 before Nascar became a national prize and today's "official" historians downplay his true legend. 454. JG24FanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My five picks fof the HOF Curtis Turner Raymond Parks(has anybody ever read Driving with The devil?) Fireball Roberts Fred Lorenzen Leonard Wood 455. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24, I can't argue with that list at all. Raymond Parks may the single most underrated figure in NASCAR history. Didn't David Pearson at one point say something about not accepting a NASCAR HOF bid unless Raymond was also inducted? Kinda ironic discussing this at the same time Axl Rose turned down his Rock N Roll HOF bid. Of course the difference is David said that to stand up for somebody whose tremendous accomplishments have gone ignored for far too long while Axl is just being what he always has been, the world's biggest d-bag and perhaps the biggest waste of talent in any walk of life. Also the RNR HOF in Cleveland is a complete joke wheras the NASCAR HOF is just mismanaged and made the awful mistake of wasting two of the first class inductions on Bill France Sr and Jr. They built the freaking sport, name the damn museum after them (rightfully) and don't waste inductions on them. Then the Silver Fox could have taken his rightful place in the inaugural class alongside Richard which would have been truly fitting, and Bobby, Cale, and Darrell could have gone in together which would have been equally fitting. Also they put it in a horrible location, almost as bad as putting the Winston Cup museum on 6th Street in downtown Winston Salem. I've never even been to that one and I work out of a station on FIFTH Street. But I digress. I also like the idea of Fireball, Pops, and Fast Freddie going in together. First off they are all deserving. Fireball was Earnhardt before Earnhardt, a hard charger who truly had the checkers or wreckers mentality that the fans loved. When he raced, the championship was kind of an afterthought, so he accomplished the main goal of the time, win the big races and worry about amassing big win totals. He did. He dominated the first few years of the new track in his hometown of Daytona, winning the 500 once, the Firecracker (at the time) 250 twice, a bunch of qualifying races that counted as wins at the time, and he won the Southern 500 (the biggest race of the time) twice, and also won the Convertible Series Rebel 300 twice which was a huge deal at the time. I touched on it earlier, but from '56-'58, the Convertible Series was a huge deal. And the Rebel 300 was the second biggest race of the year behind the Southern 500. Unfortunately the inaugural Daytona 500 ruined that Series. They put them on track at the same time with the much more aerodynamic big cars, and the Convertibles were SO much slower, seeing them get blown away that badly made them lose their appeal. Nobody could look at them the same again. But speaking of the Convertibles, that brings up to Pops. He dominated that Series so badly when he showed up, he makes Kyle Busch's NWide career look like JJ's NWide career. He had a ton of success in both Grand National and the Convertibles. He was really good at Langehorn, an extremely difficult and dangerous dirt track that has got lost in time a bit. Make no mistake, that track was a beast. People who excelled there need to be considered. And as for him getting blackballed, the biggest effect from that was he lost 4 years of his prime. He was banned in his late 30s and early 40s, a driver's traditional prime. And how about his nickname? In the sport's very crude early days, to stand out so much for popping people you get the nickname Pops? He was the Original Intimidator. And I am signing off on Fast Freddie. And not just because of the heart warming story it would be (although that would be awesome). His winning % is on par with the legends. He was the first non Southerner to make a huge impact both on and off the track. He was the face of Ford stock car racing for a while. When Fireball moved to Ford, to make sure Freddie remained the face of Ford, they made Fireball drive with an ugly lavendar paint scheme. Of course, Fireball made it legendary. Much like Earnhardt making the cheery bright blue and yellow Wrangler colors synonomous with being bad ass, Fireball put that lavendar Ford into NASCAR's all time legendary schemes. I sit here now looking at a 1/64 model of that very lavendar #22 Ford on my desk, and a full scale version of it is on the main display in NASCAR's HOF. But back to my original point, that Ford would do that to try to keep a legend like Fireball below Freddie has to count for SOMETHING, right? Leonard Wood should have already been a long time ago. 2nd class minimum. Period. 456. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "in the convertible division him and Little Joe weatherly finished 1-2 24 times, Turner won all 24 of those." Yeesh! Sorry Joe, for that alone you will have to settle for the 5th class. They had a rivavlry about like Russell's Celtics and West's Lakers had a rivalry. That is the only example I could think of. Even the Brooklyn Dodgers mamaged to beat the Yanks once in the World Series. And I didn't want to go for the obvious Globetrotters vs Generals example. "There are many people, and as a result, many sponsors that won't touch a guy like Trevor Bayne with a 10-foot pole, because of his deep religious beliefs, and the way he displays them publicly, no matter how talented a drive he might be." Luckily NASCAR is different. It is the only major sport left that has a public prayer before all events, one that is always televised no less. He could actually be a boon to a sponsor. If Joe Gibbs, somebody who is twice as open about his Christianity as Trevor, can get sponsors for his teams, knowing he will provide at least 4 pre race invocations per season, I think Trevor can get a major sponsor. Actually, I am thinking those two can hook up. I just don't see Joey making it to 2013 in that #20 car. He is off to his best start yet.... and he still barely gets any TV time. Meanwhile their rival car (the Lowe's #48) and their former driver (Smoke) get tons of TV time for running up front. Coach, Trevor is out there, GO GET HIM! NOW! "To me, Bayne is just one of these star-crossed drivers, much like Donnie Allison and Charlie Glotzbach were in the 70s, that seem to be destined for nothing but hard times and a shortened career because of issues out of his control." It is looking that way so far, but hopefully he will come through. "Thomas won 3 of the first 6 Southern 500s, was a 2-time champion, had a great winning percentage(48 wins in 228 starts), and, at the time of his career-ending injury in 1956 at the hands of Speedy Thompson under orders from Carl Kiekhaefer" An excellent case for Herb. BTW, speaking of Carl, I think the NASCAR HOF should put a picture of his in every urinal in the facility. The chance to piss on his face might be worth the price of admission alone. Perhaps the worst human being ever to be associated with NASCAR. 457. cjs3872 posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, your statement on them wasting two of the five available inductions on Bill France Sr. and Jr. is flat-out idiotic and very surprising coming from you. First, Bill France, Sr. created NASCAR and built the Daytona Internaitonal Speedway and the Talladega Superspeedway. In fact, NASCAR's Hall of Fame did exactly the same thing when they made Bill France, Sr. their first inductee as the Pro Football Hall of Fame did in 1963 when they made George Halas their first inductee, and that is to make the one who created the sports league the firstto be inducted into the Hall of Fame. and Bill France, Jr. belonged in that first class just as much as his father did. The only disagreement I had where that first class is involved was putting Dale Earnhardt, Sr. in ahead of David Pearson. Otherwise, they had it right, though I still think they should have inducted 10 into the Hall of Fame the first year, not just five. After all, the Pro Football Hall of Fame inducted a whopping 25 men the first year in 1963. And as we're seeing this year, inducting five into the Hall each year is not a good idea, because it will thin out the pool very quickly. (Anne France and Wendell Scott? Come on.) In about three to five years, they should start making percentage of the votes a requirement, posibly somewhere along the lines of 60-75% of the vote a minimum qualification for induction. And also, you mention Fireball Roberts making the #22 lavender-colored Holman-Moody Ford a landmark car. Do you know how briefly he actually drove that car? I'd say less than a year. Now the black and gold #22 Pontiacs he drove for Smokey Yunick from 1959-'62 were legitimately landmark cars in NASCAR's history, but not the lavender cars he drove for Holman-Moody for less than a year. Now I do agree that Roberts should go in within the next two or three years, and possibly even this year as the class of nominees is getting dramatically weaker. The same goes for Fred Lorenzen, though his wait may be a bit longer. and th only reason Leonard Wood is not in the Hall of Fame has to do with the particular people that got in last year. They were not going to vote in both Glen and Leonad the same year, and they were not going to put both Leonard and Dale Inman in the Hall the same year, and two of last year's slots were occupied with Cale Yarborough and Darrell Waltrip. Another thing that goes against Roberts and Lorenzen is that four of the first five multiple champions have all not yet been inducted. Herb Thomas, Tim Flock, Buck Baker, and Joe Weatherly have not yet gotten in. I think two of them should get in this time around. Another man that could get elected this year because of his overall contribution to the sport is Benny Parsons. Parsons won the chamionship in 1973, the Daytona 500 in 1975, two races at Charlotte, including the memorable 1980 World 600 duel with Darrell Waltrip, and won the last two races at Ontario, a duplicate of Indy in 1979 and '80, as well as the final race at the Texas World Speedway in 1981. But it was after his career ended in 1988 that he may have made his greatest contribution as an television analyst. He served ESPN, ABC, TNT, and NBC in that role for 18 years, and was still active in that role until his death in 2007. He may get in this year the same way that Ned Jarrett got in the second time around, not from a single aspect of the sport, bu rather his lifetime of work in the sport in numerous aspects of the sport. With 15 men already in the Hall of Fame, I'm numbering the following list starting with 16. Now the five I think should get this fourth time around are as follows: 16. Herb Thomas (NASCAR's first two-time champion and first multiple winner of the Southern 500) 17. Buck Baker (first consecutive champion, 3-time Southern 500 winner, founder of the Buck Baker Driving School, which continues in operation to this day) 18. Leonard Wood (crew chief of the Wood Brothers' #21 car for it's greatest years and innovator of the modern pit stop) 19. Fireball Roberts (33 wins, including 1962 Daytona 500 and 2 Southern 500s) 20. Rusty Wallace (55 wins, 1989 champion, the only eligible driver with 50+ wins not currently in the Hall of Fame) 458. Kyle posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i can't believe raymond parks is not in the HOF yet. sadly he is no longer with us, he died AFTER the first class was inducted. 459. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, after much debate (15 minutes worth), as much as this kills me, I will replace Lorenzen with Herb Thomas on my list. 2 championships (should have been three, but Carl had his driver wreck and hurt Herb in '56), 3 Southern 500s, and two Langhorne wins in a very short career. I feel like a Kiekhaefer for taking Freddie off, but I think Herb deserves it. Feel free to piss on a picture of me :( 460. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.12.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF, your statement on them wasting two of the five available inductions on Bill France Sr. and Jr. is flat-out idiotic and very surprising coming from you." Idiotic? I thought we didn't throw insults at each other. Look, I'm not debating their impact on the sport. If anything, I am basically saying they are ABOVE traditional inductions. As I said, the HOF should be NAMED after them. They built the sport. A good parallel is the Naismith Basketball HOF. They named it after the guy who invented basketball. That is what NASCAR should have done. I'm sorry if it came across like they weren't worthy. I just don't think, if you are going to have 5 nominees per year, they should be put in that group. That is what I am trying to say. 461. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Btw, if you are going to call somebody's statement "idiotic", don't turn around and immediately say something like Pearson should have made the HOF before Earnhardt. As much as I love the Fox, and as much as his obscene win total and % have been (rightfully) romanticized, the fact is he would never run a full schedule after 1969. Even after the schedule was condensed in '72 he would cherry pick events. And if it was the Woods' decision, then why didn't he leave? Bobby Allison left teams on several occasions so he could run the full season, at times building his own cars to run the races his main team wouldn't run. David ended his career running 10 races per year. His fire simply went out. Meanwhile there was Dale at 48 years old spinning people out to win races. 462. JG24FanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dsff "Meanwhile there was Dale at 48 years old spinning people out to win races." "I was just tryin ta rattle his cage" -D.E- 463. JG24FanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm bored Top 10 active Short Track lap leaders 1. Jeff Gordon.....7,796 2. Tony Stewart....3,379 3. Jimmie Johnson..2,940 4. Kyle Busch......2,631 5. Denny Hamlin....2,597 6. Jeff Burton.....2,217 7. Dale Jr.........2,040 8. Mark Martin.....1,818 9. Kevin Harvick...1,719 10.Kurt Busch......1,565 464. Dinger22 posted: 04.13.2012 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anonymous (#450), that might be one of Trevor's problems right there. There are many people, and as a result, many sponsors that won't touch a guy like Trevor Bayne with a 10-foot pole, because of his deep religious beliefs, and the way he displays them publicly, no matter how talented a drive he might be." I think you're right. I know personally that I don't like overt displays of religion. It makes me uncomfortable. It's like when someone is really openly political as either a conservative or liberal, sometimes they forget that not everyone agrees with them when they start going off on some topic. Religion is the same way. There seems to be a prevailing assumption in the NASCAR community that race fans are all Christian, so they don't mind pre-race invocations, or drivers thanking god for their success, or strong displays of Christianity. But sponsors are more conscious of their image. They want to be all-inclusive, because they are trying to sell a product in a country full of people of different religions or no religion at all. Allying yourself with someone like Trevor Bayne or Tim Tebow sends the message that your company endorses Christianity. And I think Christians, as the majority in this country, sometimes don't realize that their views aren't always popular with everyone. So I do think Bayne's faith has something to do with his struggles to find sponsorship. If NASCAR was as big as the NFL, Trevor Bayne would be a more polarizing figure than Kyle Busch to the average fan. And you can't just throw him in a commercial to sell your product without taking into account who he is as a person. And yes, it seems backwards that you can throw Busch into half a dozen commercials no problem, but not squeaky-clean Bayne. But religion is a topic that is deep-seated, personal, and important to pretty much everyone, and everyone is going to have an opinion on it. People will eventually forget that Busch did a bunch of stupid stuff on the track as long as he's a decent guy away from it, but people won't forget their religion. 465. cjs3872 posted: 04.13.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, usually I don't hurl insults, and I don't think that was insulting, but your comment about Bill France, Sr. and Jr. not deserving to be in the first class for the Hall was so stupid that it deserved a strong response. Sorry if you thought it was insulting. And yes, I thought Pearson should have put in ahead of Earnhardt. His overall record is better, even though I consider Earnhardt to be a greater driver than Pearson. A reason I think Earnhardt was put in first was that the voters wanted all eras top be represented, and Earnhardt represented the modern, post-1985 era of the sport among the inaugural inductees. ter all, Bill, Sr. represented the original era of the sport, Richard Petty and Bill France, Jr. represented the sport's glory years of the 1970s, Junior Johnson was elected due to his overall contribution to the sport, and Earnhardt represented the modern era. But another reason that Earnhardt was placed ahead of Pearson was that, after his retirement in 1986, Pearson virtually disappeared from the sport. So while the memories of Earnhardt were still vivid, the memories of Pearson and his accomplishments were not as well known to many of those that voted for that inaugural class, especially the younger voters. And I think Earnhardt's tragic death in the 2001 Daytona 500 also played a role in him getting in before Pearson. 466. cjs3872 posted: 04.13.2012 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, why didn't Pearson leave the Wood Brothers if he wanted to run the full season? First of all, he didn't want to run the full season any more after his three championships. He has often said that he wanted to win one championship for each of his children, of which he had three, but then no longer wanted to chase the championship. Then you must also remember that it was the Wood Brothers that picked Pearson up off of the scrap heap and put him in their car in 1972, and that there were only about four or five cars that could win in that era, and Pearson was in one of them. Remember that Pearson drove a number of races in 1971 for a man named Chris Ballo. And Ballo's cars never once finished a race with Pearson driving. Then there was the embarassment of Pearson not even making it to the starting grid for his qualifying race for the 1972 Daytona 500, when he drove for Bud Moore, because they had so many engine problems, failing to qualify for the 1972 Daytona 500, as a result. Then there was the aspect of the Wood Brothers needing a driver to run the races that A.J. Foyt didn't. All that resulted in Pearson becoming their driver about two months into the 1972 season, and the rest, as theysay, is history. 467. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First of all, he didn't want to run the full season any more after his three championships." Bingo. Again, I love Pearson and I definitely feel he should have been in the first class of inductees in the Bill France NASCAR HOF (along with Dale, Junior, Richard, and Glen Wood). But damn, when you have that kind of racing ability, go out and get all you can. And yes, I know that didn't mean much to him, and it is certainly his perogative to run his career the way he saw fit, but that is why I rank him behind Dale and Richard. "but your comment about Bill France, Sr. and Jr. not deserving to be in the first class for the Hall was so stupid that it deserved a strong response" Can you at least admit you misunderstood what I meant? You name the Hall of Fame after the sport's founders (or at least you should, see above), you don't induct them like everybody else. Or give them their own special ceremony saying "these guys built the sport". And by proxy, you waste two nominations in the prestigious first class that should have gone to two other people, one of which was Pearson which I think we can all agree on, and we can argue about the fifth choice. I say Glen Wood. He laid the foundations for an institution that began in '53, won with a who's who of elite drivers across all of racing (Pops, Tiny, Gurney, Foyt, Cale, Donnie, Pearson, Bonnett). He was also a decent driver, dominating Bowman Gray for a while, and winning a Converitble race at Soldier Field. If not him, then Lee Petty. "Pearson not even making it to the starting grid for his qualifying race for the 1972 Daytona 500, when he drove for Bud Moore, because they had so many engine problems, failing to qualify for the 1972 Daytona 500, as a result." Jeez, who built Bud's engines? The lack of reliability in his motors drove away legends and champions like Bobby (came right out and said he needed to leave if he was gonna win a championships), Earnhardt (had mechanical failures in half his races with Bud), BP (ditto), Buddy Baker (although he never did himself any favors with his leadfoot style in an era of no mechanical dependability), Darrell (who was a nobody at the time!), and Pearson (I guess the Spartanburg connection didn't work out) despite their undying respect for the man. Of course a lot of that had to do with Ford not giving much attention to NASCAR teams for a while. Both Bobby and Dale practically begged Bud to switch to GM. They wanted to stay cause they liked Bud, but ultimately both decided they couldn't reach their potential in Fords. And they were right. 468. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""I was just tryin ta rattle his cage" -D.E-" Lol. The thing is, I think he meant it. I think he was trying to knock Terry out of the groove in 1&2, run side by side with him down the backstretch, then sideswipe him up into the marbles in 3&4 and take the checkered flag. Is that still dirty? Oh yeah! But not quite as bad as just spinning the poor bastard out. One of my favorite moments is his reaction when the giant Bristol crowd unanimously boos the hell out of him in victory lane. First off, there is his initial reaction. He had been the fan favorite for almost 10 years, with his carefully marketed Intimidator and Man In Black public persona capturing fans imaginations (including mine), so he climbs out and stands on his window ledge and raises his arms for his fans to see. But the boos start to leak out. At first he realizes they are unhappy with his antics, and has that "whoops, probably shouldn't have raised my arms" look on his face. He hops down and then he gets the full fledged Busch Brothers Memorial Treatment from the Bristol crowd. Hearing all those boos, something he hadn't heard since the height of his Wrangler days which were also his most dominating years, you can see it on his face. That devilish grin starts to come out. He loves it! He can't come out and say it or show it because he legitimately felt bad about embarrassing his buddy (he didn't feel bad for spinning him, just embarrassing him), but you can tell he is loving it. This is the same guy who famously said "When they boo you on Sunday (or in this case Saturday Night), you go to the bank on Monday". Somebody who openly coveted the boos Gordon was getting at the time. He got to be the bad guy one last time, and he was soaking it up. He would only be happier at the racetrack once for the rest of his life. That was Dale Jr's win in the The Winston. He may have looked happy for June's first win at Texas, and he was, but that was a surprised happiness. Take it from somebody who watched everything Dale did intently for the last 12 years of his career, he was partially surprised. Like "Holy Shit, that kid who I watched drift aimlessly throughout his whole life without much purpose can beat the Winston Cup guys!". Fast forward a month and a half, after a second win at Richmond, a true grind it out win, outdueling the passive Labonte on worn out tires and fading brakes (the best pure driving performance of his career, it's true), he then powered past all the big boys in the showcase Winston event. He had truly arrived as a Cup driver who could run with and beat the big boys, he had asserted his place, and his Dad knew it and couldn't have been happier. 469. cjs3872 posted: 04.13.2012 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now DSFF, I'm not saying that the Hall shouldn't be named after Bill France, Sr. Actually that isn't a bad idea, but there's no doubt they belonged in the first class, either. I also think that first class should have consisted of more than five members, and always have. I think it should have been ten members, at least. I cite my earlier example of the Pro Football Hall of Fame inducting 25 members in it's first class in 1963, with the NFL's founding father George Halas being the first one inducted. That's the way it should've been there, and having Bill France, Sr. not only being a member of the first class, but also be the first one inducted is the way it should be for NASCAR's Hall of Fame, as well. After all, in each case, they're the ones that started it all. And that doesn't even consider Daytona and Talladega, which France also built. And by the way, there's no doubt that Eanrhardt inentionally wrecked Terry Labonte to win that rae at Bristol in 1999, even driving off the bottom of the track by about three feet to do so. You may have a point if Earnhardt had hit Labonte bumper-to-bumper, but Earnhardt hit Labonte with his right front corner to Labonte's left rear past the bumper. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. even admitted in a television special done by Spike TV when they did what they thought were the 52 greatest moments in NASCAR history that it his father intentionally wrecked Labonte. And about Bud Moore's team having so many engine problems that his car failed to even get to the starting grid for the qualifying race for the 1972 Daytona 500. Remember that Moore had been out of NASCAR's top series since 1968, and that he had been running sports cars with the likes of Parnelli Jones, and winning championships there. He also ran the Grand American series with Tiny Lund during this period. Also, that was about the time that the transition from the 429 cubic inch engines to the small blocks used today. When Moore returned to NASCAR in 1972, he was the first of the major team owners to begin running the smaller engines, but running a new engine always has it's problems (look at what's happening to the teams running Chevrolet egines in the IndyCar series this weekend at Long Beach). But Moore's car did finish second in the 1973 Daytona 500 with Bobby Isaac, albeit two laps behind Petty. Remember that when numerous teams began running the small block engines in 1973 and '74 that many teams had problems for the same reasons. Waddell Wilson even said that his engines had problems running the distance in 1974 with Benny Parsons, and that he had only one engine for the 1975 Daytona 500, so Bud Moore's wasn't the only team that encountered such problems then. Remember that there were races in 1973 and '74 in which just 12 cars (out of 40) finished at Darlington and only 14 finished the Daytona 500 in 1975. Reliability was a huge problem for all the teams back then. 470. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 04.13.2012 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Religion is the same way. There seems to be a prevailing assumption in the NASCAR community that race fans are all Christian, so they don't mind pre-race invocations, or drivers thanking god for their success, or strong displays of Christianity. But sponsors are more conscious of their image. They want to be all-inclusive, because they are trying to sell a product in a country full of people of different religions or no religion at all. Allying yourself with someone like Trevor Bayne or Tim Tebow sends the message that your company endorses Christianity. And I think Christians, as the majority in this country, sometimes don't realize that their views aren't always popular with everyone." Check post #13 people. Blake Koch got his ad removed by ESPN becuase of "religious" under tones. Really? If this WAS Tim Tebow, LeBron James or some other MLB player, it would have been ok. But since its a NASCAR driver, it isn't ok. Blake is Christian like Tim and Trevor, i'm willing to be that EVEN if Trevor did something like this, it would've have gotten shot down. BUT if Tim Tebow did it, then it would have been fine with ESPN. ESPN screwed over Blake for no good reason. Sponsers will not touch Trevor? What about ESPN screwing over Blake? Blakes ad didn't even have any "religious" and "political" under tones to it. It was just a "you can make a difference, go out and vote" type message. Yet ESPN removed it. Is it just me or is ESPN completely against NASCAR at every turn? 471. Anonymous posted: 04.13.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, It was more than than religious on why Blake Koch's ad got removed. ESPN didn't want to say it, but it was political. I saw the Blake Koch add on television for the short time it was on. It was about voting. It got out that Blake is a conservative. ESPN is a liberal network like it or not. They are the ones that got a rid of Hank Williams Jr. Monday Night Football Theme because they didn't like Hank's conservative views being expressed on television. 472. NicoRosbergFan posted: 04.13.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A Christian and Republican starring in commercial where all he says is "Register to vote and you could win a car" gets pulled, but ESPN has no problem with GoDaddy.com's porn ads. 473. Andy posted: 04.13.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To call ESPN "liberal" doesn't even scratch the surface. Koch's ad was 100% nonpartisan but since it was aimed at NASCAR fans, ESPN just assumed the ad would incite a bunch of -- gasp! -- Republicans to register, and we certainly can't have *that*, now can we? Anyone who claims that ESPN is unbiased and nonpolitical is an idiot. If this were, say, an NBA fundraiser "to raise money for President Barack Obama's re-election campaign" -- real non-political event there, eh? -- ESPN would be all over it in a very positive way with fawning coverage on Sportscenter and and all the free publicity they can muster, like "a monkey on a cupcake" (to quote Ray Barone). http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7252592/nba-stars-play-exhibition-raise-funds-president-obama-re-election-campaign 474. LordLowe posted: 04.13.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man the hendrick guys are really out to lunch right now 475. Eric posted: 04.13.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is a another reason for ESPN to assume that the ad was for Republicans. That is caused Blake's last name. ESPN thinks Blake right away is related to the Koch brothers. The Koch brothers are known for giving campaign cash to Republicans. 476. Mr X posted: 04.13.2012 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The one thing that I would really like to see out of the NASCAR HOF is seeing a group of people inducted together. I heard this suggestion brought up by Mike Joy on speed a while ago, during one of the previous inductions. I don't see why they need to induct Glen and Leonard Wood seperately, I really think that it should be inducted for the entire Wood family to be inducted at once, certainly Glen and Leonard should go in together, and regarding Bill France Sr and Jr. I agree with DSFF on this one, the led this sport with an iron fist for over 5 decades, and took a small racing series which at the time like most other racing series was a very shady business and turned into one of the most respectable and popular North American sport, and certainly the best worldwide motorsport. There really should be a permanent shrine to both of those gentlemen as soon as you walk in the front door. They should also leave some space for a future and much smaller shrine to Brian France, somewhere near the restrooms maybe, or even in them. He certainly done his part to take the sport there. Bill France Sr and Jr both deserve well more then a year in the HOF, and not inducting a pair of drivers who battled tooth and nail with eachother for 20 years is a travesty, they combined for 10 titles, 305 wins, and had 62 1-2 finishes with Petty winning 29 and David winning 33, they should've been inducted together. In fact any pair or group of rivals who were worthy of the HOF should be inducted together IMO, regardless of whether its crew chiefs, owners, or drivers. 477. DaleSrFanForever posted: 04.13.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, I really like your ideas. Especially for the Brian France exhibit! 478. 10andJoe posted: 04.14.2012 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >But from what I've heard, Turner was the kind of driver that would either win, or fail to finish, so how do we know that Turner did not fail to finish a great number of, if not all the races he didn't win the Convertible Divison that year. Turner had 10 fewer top 10s than Bob Welborn (the champion) that year. 479. JG24FanForever posted: 04.14.2012 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Turner won 38 of 79 Convertible division races contested, that's the highest Big League Nascar winning percentage ever .481 % and even bigger than Fangio's F1 record of 24 of 51 .470 % Glen Wood said that "Turner could do more with a car than anyone I had ever seen" and Bill France said shortly after Turner passed that "Curtis Turner was Nascar's greatest driver" why is he so heavily downplayed and overlooked? 480. 18fan posted: 04.14.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Turner's involvement with the Teamsters trying to start a drivers' union and his subsequent "lifetime ban" has definitely hurt him. I believe he was only reinstated to bring star power to the sport when Petty and Pearson were not racing due to the ban on the Hemi engine. 481. JG24FanForever posted: 04.14.2012 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan that is absolutely correct about why the ban was lifted. 482. Pk84 posted: 04.14.2012 - 1:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "To call ESPN "liberal" doesn't even scratch the surface. Koch's ad was 100% nonpartisan but since it was aimed at NASCAR fans, ESPN just assumed the ad would incite a bunch of -- gasp! -- Republicans to register, and we certainly can't have that, now can we?" "ESPN is a liberal network like it or not. They are the ones that got a rid of Hank Williams Jr. Monday Night Football Theme because they didn't like Hank's conservative views being expressed on television." "A Christian and Republican starring in commercial where all he says is "Register to vote and you could win a car" gets pulled, but ESPN has no problem with GoDaddy.com's porn ads." Wow, christians and republicans sure do have a persecution complex these days. I guess after you've been doing the persecuting yourselves for so many centuries, you want to switch it up a bit. 483. JG24FanForever posted: 04.14.2012 - 2:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) after letting my blood cool for 2 weeks I can say this race isn't really Jeff Gordon's greatest defeat anymore Top 5 1. 1997 Bristol Night(this is the biggest cheering reaction ever) 2. 1998 The Winston 3. 2007 Watkins Glen 4. 2012 Spring Martinsville 5. 1998 Early Richmond 484. NicoRosbergFan posted: 04.14.2012 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PK84: In case you haven't read up on stuff, Christians who persecute others are put down as hypocrites and enemies that destroyed Christianity from within; they are essentially non-Christians. Plus, you haven't read about all the bombs and projectiles that leftists threw @ Romney, Santorum, and Gingrich, have you? 485. Anonymous posted: 04.14.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Plus, you haven't read about all the bombs and projectiles that leftists threw @ Romney, Santorum, and Gingrich, have you?" Oh yeah, all of that stuff was definitely one way. These last four years, nobody has said a single thing about Obama, or his citizenship, or his religion, or his race, or his governing. Nope, smooth sailing. How about you get down off that cross before you go trying to act like it's a one way street. As far as majorities with tons of money and power go, I sure have never seen one feel as persecuted as christians seem to think they are these days. 486. NicoRosbergFan posted: 04.14.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yup, throwing physical weapons has been one way; verbal weapons have gone both ways for centuries. Maybe Christians feel persecuted because of how many Christians get murdered in places like Sudan in one year. Meanwhile, one Quran gets burned, a tactless and disrespectful act in itself, and we have the President issuing formal apologies. Both sides have power and money, so that argument is pointless. Also, questioning qualities of the President is to be expected regardless of party, but it has gone way too far. But throwing actual weapons at people? That's pathetic. I wouldn't throw an object at any politician I might disagree with because I respect his right to think differently, whether or not I think he is wrong. You might have made good points, but you failed to point out any significant wrongdoings that haven't gone both ways. In case you haven't noticed, it isn't a one way street; both sides, however, want you to think it is. 487. Billy posted: 04.14.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Correct me if I'm wrong, but at 515 laps, this is is the longest race (in terms of number of laps) in NASCAR history, right? 488. JG24FanForever posted: 04.21.2012 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon vs. Jimmie Johnson on short Track stats Wins JG 15 JJ 10 Poles JG 18 JJ 4 Races Led Most JG 19 JJ 2 2nd place JG 12 JJ 4 3rd place JG 15 JJ 6 Laps led JG 7796 JJ 2940 Jeff is the boss at Shorts in his time 489. the_man posted: 05.06.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan on a 24th place finish: "Our Front Row Motorports Ford was pretty good. It took off really well for the first 30 or 40 laps and then it would get mad and we'd spin the rear tires, so we weren't as good for the later part of a run. But Jay Guy and the boys did a good job on it this weekend and our MHP Pit Crew had another good day on pit road. So we got us another top-25, which is good. It wasn't pretty, but we'll take it." 490. MarkMartinFan posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since SPEED has been showing the replays to all the races this year, I decided to watch some. I just watched this race again. I believe they all could have gone three wide into turn 1. There's enough room. The problem is that both Jimmie and Jeff either weren't told by their spotters that Clint was underneath them, or they didn't care. But lets just say Clint doesn't make that move, Newman will go three wide with Bowyer and whoever was on the outside of him and they would have wrecked. So it would have happened either way. 491. e-jockmo posted: 04.06.2013 - 11:59 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Just found this website. GREAT info! NASCAR.com site is horrible this year for all the info you need. GREAT JOB!! 492. ch posted: 07.18.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #26 Sponsor: MDS Transport (consistent with all 2012/2013 starts) 493. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 05.11.2014 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner of #33 was Joe Falk 494. Anonymous posted: 02.24.2015 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner of the #33 was Joe Falk. http://motorsports-soapbox.blogspot.com/2012/03/team-owner-joe-falk-set-for-nascar.html 495. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 07.23.2015 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Updates #27 Libman/Menards #29 Probation Ends At Last/Budweiser #42 Target/Cottonelle #47 Bush's Beans/Bubba Burgers/Scott Products #55 RK Motors Charlotte #88 AMP Energy/Diet Mtn. Dew 496. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 08.07.2015 - 10:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner Update #98 Phil Parsons (From this race till 2015 SpongeBob SquarePants 400 Phil should be listed as the owner of the #98) From Jayski: "PPR competed in its first NSCS race in 2012 and earned their best finish in the 2013 Daytona 500. PPR is owned by former NASCAR driver Phil Parsons." "NASCAR lists Mike Curb as the car's owner, but Curb said he has an agreement with Phil Parsons, a former NASCAR driver and now a team owner. In the agreement, Parsons owns and operates the car, and Curb is listed as the entrant with NASCAR." Phil Parsons owns Phil Parsons Racing, not Mike Curb. He's a sponsor who is listed as the owner on entry lists. All SC ownership stats from 2012-present should belong to Phil Parsons. 497. Big Mac Fan posted: 10.21.2015 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most likely the last time Gordon leads 300 laps in a race and most likely the last time he leads 200 or more. 498. NASCARLover22 posted: 12.24.2015 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor updates: #48 myLowes #78 Furniture Row/CSX "Play It Safe" #55 RKMotorsCharlotte.com/Aaron's Dream Machine 499. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 03.22.2016 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner Update #33 Joe Falk http://motorsports-soapbox.blogspot.com/2012/03/team-owner-joe-falk-set-for-nascar.html http://nascar.nbcsports.com/2016/03/22/sprint-cup-owner-sues-fellow-owner-seeks-nascar-charter/ 500. Windows Millennium Edition posted: 08.29.2016 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, I felt terrible for David Reutimann after watching his post race interview. The poor guy literally looked like he was just about to cry. 501. Maverick19 posted: 03.15.2017 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, a 4 way tie for 3rd in points. 502. Anthony posted: 02.07.2019 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it true that Reutimann stopped on the track so the car could stay in the top 35 in points and guarantee Danica into the race 503. TeamDCRfan posted: 02.07.2019 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He was running a with a messed up car barely rolling to try and keep it up in the points, then the car quit and he stopped. 504. Rich posted: 12.19.2020 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Joy, Larry McReynolds and Darrell Waltrip were the commentators. Dr. Dick Berggren, Steve Byrnes, Matt Yocum and Krista Voda were the pit road reporters. Jeff Hammond was the roving reporter. Chris Myers and Michael Waltrip were in the Hollywood hotel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: