|| *Comments on the 2012 Bojangles' Southern 500:* View the most recent comment <#296> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Kyle posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FIRST!!!!! 2. Schroeder51 posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I'll start by saying the Nationwide race was good, although I was disappointed to see Sadler get wrecked. I wanted him to win! I did get a few good photos of some of the wrecked cars, though. Let's see if Gordon can actually have a good race for once or if his run of luck continues...gotta end at some point...right? 3. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somebody mentioned this before, but I want to say it too. Where is the "limited" part of Brad's NWide limited schedule? And why can't Logano find even 10% of his NWide magic in Cup? He has routinely beats his Cup teammates in NWide in similar equipment, but on Sundays they run run circles around him. 4. Kyle posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @DaleSrFanForver brad is running 21 of 33 nationwide races this year, parker kligerman will run 12 races in the #22 staring next week at iowa. and because logano is a "busch-league" driver as they used to say. next year when someone else is the the #20 cup car and logano is bumped down to nationwide full-time where he belongs he will be a championship contender for sure. 5. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agh! All that waiting and I still wasn't first on this thread! Darn it. Oh well. Nationwide race seemed good, and I'll bet tomorrow's race might even be better. Let's face it folks, the Biff's on a tear. I doubt he'll win very much this season, even if at all *Texas win aside*. He seems to be taking this season with a Carl Edwards 2011 mentality. However, since it's highly unlikely that any one driver here can go on a tear and win 5 of 10 Chase races again, I'd say that as long as Biffle's luck holds steady, He might win the championship. Of course, if he loses it, whoops. Then my pick is on Kenseth. I really think a Roush Ford will win the championship this year. Picks for the Darlington Race: Denny Hamlin, Mark Martin, Matt Kenseth. And now, the question arrives. Can Keselowski or Kenseth win this race AND the Coke 600 to win the Winston Million. I sure hope Matt can do it. But I want your opinion on if either of these two can. 6. jabber1990 posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) also, it seems like Harvick runs the same number of races this year as he has in years past as Chariman and CEO of KHI, why not continue to race for RCR while owning KHI? 7. 10andJoe posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Welcome Back: this will be the first Cup Series race in which a car owned by Jimmy Means will compete since the final race of the 1994 season. The answer to the trivia question in the above is "Gary Bradberry". 8. 10andJoe posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cole Whitt hit the wall between turns one and two on his second qualifying lap. Michael McDowell was on a run that would have had him make the show until he slapped the wall coming out of turn four on his first qualifying lap, which killed both laps. I'm sure J.J. Yeley has his address to send the thank-you card. 9. Daniel posted: 05.11.2012 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using the fastest 43: #23 Scott Riggs & #98 Michael McDowell Out using the fastest 43: #32 Reed Sorenson & #93 David Reutimann 10. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With Greg Biffle winning the pole position for this race, that's both good news and bad news for him as he seeks to join the very exclusive club of three-time Southern 500 winners (he won it in 2005-'06). The good news is that winning the pole gives him the best track position he can get at what probably is his best track. The bad news is that no driver has won the pole and gone on to win the Southern 500 since Dale Earnhardt, Sr. did in 1990. However, there is a silver lining for Biffle in that was Earnhardt's third (and last) Southern 500 win. Counting Biffle, there are seven previous Southern 500 winners starting in the first six rows. Along with Biffle, you have 2004 winner Jimmie Johnson (second), 2008 winner Kyle Busch (fifth), 2010 winner Denny Hamlin (eighth), defening Southern 500 champion Regan Smith (ninth), 1999 winner Jeff Burton (tenth), and the greatest Southern 500 winner of all, six-time winner Jeff Gordon (12th) all starting in the first six rows. Two other previous winners of this race, two-time winner Mark Martin and Bobby Labonte, the 2000 winner, make nine previous Southern 500 winners in the lineup, three of them multiple winners, representing 16 previous wins in the Southern 500. Will one of these nine add to their Darlington legend, or will a new face adorn victory lane in the Southern 500? I predicted before the year started that Denny Hamlin would grab a second Southern 500 win, and I stick by that. 11. Spen posted: 05.12.2012 - 2:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's either gonna be Biffle or Hamlin. I'm pulling for Biffle, 'cause I really need the points. 12. irony posted: 05.12.2012 - 4:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica would of made it in on speed if she had to. 13. 10andJoe posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Brad Keselowski on his 100th Cup Series start. 14. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greetings from the thriving metropolis of Darlington, SC. Actually it is a tiny tiny town. But it has a kick ass racetrack. 15. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 12:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only the toughest on the circuit, DSFF. That's why a win in the Southern 500 is so meaningful, and maybe why seven of the nine previous winners of the Southern 500 in the field for this year's edition all qualified in the top 12. And it may be why if you win the Southern 500 more than once, as pole sitter Greg Biffle, Mark Martin, and Jeff Gordon (who has a record six wins) have, you can classify yourself as one of the best ever at Darlington. And if Biffle or Martin win tonight and become a three-time Southern 500 winner, they would truly join one of the most exclusive clubs in motorsports. 16. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF, Out of curiosity, how's the atmosphere there to fans coming in from out-of-town or out-of-state? I've always wondered if smaller cities are more or less receptive to people visiting their main race events as opposed to larger cities with racing schedules. 17. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.12.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good as gold. The small towns are always receptive. 18. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.12.2012 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First time I have ever had garage passes. Just awesome. I got The King's autograph and my picture with him. Saw Cale, tried to chase him down to do the same, but lost him. 19. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.12.2012 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #17 Agree with that. Small towns have the best people. NASCAR is going to reduced downforce on the cars and increase the size of the shark fine. For the purposes of "producing good racing" of course. Incrasing the shark fine will reduce the chance of the cars becoming fly boys. NASCAR is messing with the side skirts on the cars and raise the front spliter by 1 ince. So NASCAR is changing things because people think the racing is boring, so if this *somehow* back fires, i wounder who will get blamed........i know who. ;-) 20. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I's obvious that NASCAR thinks speeds are going to be to high, especially at Michigan, so they're trying to slow the cars down using aerodynamocs, instead of choking the engines. That's what these changes are about. By rasing the side skirts, they're going to try to reduce corniering speeds, which in turn would also reduce straightaway speeds. And by increasing the fins, they're trying to decrease the chance of cars getting airborne when they get sideways at the higher speeds. But decreasing downforce is the last thing that needs to be done to make the racing better. History shows that the way to make the racing better is to increase the downforce. Has the disaster that was the "5&5 rule" in 1998 showed NASCAR nothing, even all these years later? The best race that year might very well have been the season finale at Atlanta, a race for which NASCAR increased the downforce on the cars. Otherwise, 1998 may have been one of the worst seasons of racing I can ever recall, due to the decreased downforce. Decreasing downforce will make it even harder for the cars to run closer together that tit is now, if that's even possible. Now, the one thing I see happening at Michigan and Pocono is that with those tracks having been resurfaced, we'll probably see drafting be more of a factor there this year because the cars can run closer together because of the fresher pavement. The last time Pocono was repaved prior to 1996, the first race was very competitve because the drivers could use the draft because handling was a little less important, and the same was true after the last time Michigan was repaved after the track began to tear up in 1994. 21. Eric posted: 05.12.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX ST, Why are you claiming that Race fans actually wanted the changes that NASCAR is going to do for big tracks when NASCAR really is doing this because NASCAR really is concerned about racing speeds? NASCAR had issues issues with how fast cars go before going over 200 MPH in the name safety. That is the reason that Daytona and Talladega have plates since 1988. IF you don't believe why NASCAR is doing these changes has very little for the fans outside of safety, why do you really think NASCAR wouldn't do any rule changes for Michigan after they were going 215 to 220 MPH in testing after the track was repaved? Like or not, the next time high bank one and half mile tracks get repaved, they are going to hit over 200 Miles Per Hour and that is something NASCAR doesn't want because the 1987 Talladega race that Bobby Allison got into a crash that changed racing at Daytona and Talladega forever. NASCAR doesn't like cars to fly in the air. NASCAR really don't want no fans get killed unlike 1955 24 hour hours of Le Mans race because they don't want the government to ban racing in the United States and could be all forms of racing matter of fact besides having families to try to sue NASCAR if their love ones are killed. 22. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Eric, I think NASCAR is trying to slow the cars down through aerodynamics, instead of horsepower this time, because they're close enough that they think they can slow the cars down to an acceptable level just by slowing them down in the corners. The interesting thing to me is, how will the fact that I believe drafting will come into play a little bit more at Michigan and Pocono because they'll handle well enough in the corners to be able to stay colser together, affect the racing? Oe reason drafting doesn't come into play at those tracks is because they just can't stay close enough for it to become important, but with the repaving, I think drafting will become a factor because they will be able to stay closer together for longer, which will make for better racing. 23. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, can you believe that Larry McReynolds just said that only one driver, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., ever won the All-Star race more than twice? Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Jeff Gordon also won the All-Star Race three times? And Larry McReynolds was on the broadcast when Gordon became a three-time winner of the All-Star Race. Now Davey Allison is the only driver ever to win the All-Star Race in consecutive years. But how can someone who was there when something happened make such a big mistake regarding such a happening. And they also said that it was two drivers battling for the win in the 1992 All-Star Race. But again, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that finish in the 1992 All-Star Race involve THREE drivers, not just two? 24. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.12.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They are putting the changes in at Charlotte. Not quite MIS but a good test bed for the package. I'm glad they aren't putting plate on the cars and instead using downforce and drag to keep the cars earth bound. From other forums i read and post on, some of the posters say the reducing downoforce will make racing better (cuz the cars have too much downforce according to them). Lets not forget, the last time NASCAR toke downforce away they races became a complete and utter bore. ******************************************************************************** found this on jayski "Trying to reduce downforce and the chance of cars becoming airborne, NASCAR will implement a pair of rules changes for Sprint Cup teams that may also produce more passing. One change will go into effect starting next week at Charlotte Motor Speedway. The side skirts-the body of the car between the wheels-will be higher above the ground, meaning more air will run underneath the car. Currently, the skirts must be 3 to 4.5 inches off the ground on both sides of the car. Starting next week, they must be 4 to 4.5 inches off the ground on the right side and 4.5 to 5 inches on the left side. Teams tested with the shorter side skirts during recent Goodyear tire tests. For tracks 2 miles or larger, NASCAR will use its longer "shark fin"-a panel that runs alongside the rear window and decklid of the car-that has been used at Daytona and Talladega to keep cars from getting airborne. On the short tracks, it will remain a minimum 17 inches long while they must reach all the way from the top of the car to the spoiler on tracks 2 miles or longer. This also will decrease the potential of car liftoff, which could have been an issue at some of the most recently repaved tracks-the 2.5-mile track at Pocono and 2-mile track at Michigan. [Jayski]" Open mouth and insert foot for me. I'm not an aerodynamic expert, but doesn't taking away downforce increase speeds? 25. Eric posted: 05.12.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I already know the changes are through aerodynamics. Although sometimes I don't mention something, that doesn't mean I am not aware of it and this one of the cases that already knew. I only mentioned Daytona and Talladega a first place because they really were the only tracks NASCAR really had fears of going to fast despite what NASCAR did is different in terms of an answer. To me a changed through aerodynamics always been about changing speed of the cars and I always view it as a cheaper option than using plates that should be used if possible based on how fast the cars go. Plate racing is headache in terms of cost because of how torn up the cars are from the nature of place racing. That only should used when Aerodynamics doesn't work for slowing the cars down enough like Daytona and Talladega 26. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct, 1995 Subaru WRX STi, and I eluded to it earlier in this discussion. That change became commonly known as the "5&5 rule", and it made the racing in 1998 among the worst ever. And no, taking away downforce does not increase the speeds except at places like Daytona and Taladega, where you run wide open all the time and taking away downforce also means taking away drag. In the case of the changes NASCAR is making for Michigan and Pocono (and it's focused on those two tracks because of the repaving), taking away downforce will slow the cars down because it will lower cornering speeds, which in turn will make straightaway speeds slower as well, because they're not going as fast in the corners. My big fear about them taking away downforce is that it will mean that the cars can't run closer together at Michigan and Pocono, because if they could run closer together, that would mean drafting could become important again like it was in the 1970s and 80s when those two places put on some of the best racing on the entire circuit. 27. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Then what should we do to fix this problem on the 1.5-2.5 mile tracks once and for all. 28. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Open mouth and insert foot for me. I'm not an aerodynamic expert, but doesn't taking away downforce increase speeds?" A reduction in drag will allow for a higher top speed, but the idea here is that the lack of downforce will reduce corner speeds so much that the straight line speeds will drop due to them carrying less momentum through the corner exit. 29. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I say we roll back the technology and body styles of the cars to that of the mid 1970s to early 1980s it might make the racing better and might save a lot of teams money. 30. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But LordLowe, those cars also were not very safe, especially compared to today's cars. But also, once you lear something, you can't unlearn it, and such is the case regarding aerodynamics. Once that genie was taken out of the bottle, it can never be put back in. 31. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS how about we just increase downforce and put that taxi cab strip on the roof of the cars would that possibly help improve the racing. 32. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW CJS you look about 10 years younger then your actual age 33. DaleJrFan posted: 05.12.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know people are going to bash me for this but i can't help think Hendrick is about half the reason Dale Jr hasn't won in almost 4 years. Jimmie almost got the pole and he is the driver Hendrick wants to win. He will let Jeff or Kasey win possibly but i dont think he will let Jr. I know Dale Jr has gotten better cars this year and hopefully he will win but until Jr wins i cant help but think Hendrick doesn't want him to. 34. 10andJoe posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >NASCAR is messing with the side skirts on the cars and raise the front spliter by 1 inch. Not sure about the side skirt, but as for the splitter, all I can say is It's About Bloody Time. Watching the old races from the 1994-1997 period, you can see racetrack and even /daylight/ under the nose of the cars, not the glued-to-the-track stuff you have now. Lifting the splitter should be one very good step to getting rid of the two words everyone loathes hearing: "aero push". 35. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 27. LordLowe posted: 05.12.12 - 6:05 pm Then what should we do to fix this problem on the 1.5-2.5 mile tracks once and for all. My suggestion: More downforce, not less. I've not gotten much time to study downforce, but if it really is 'Down' force, then wouldn't it be pushing the car onto the ground? So With all of that force pushing downwards, wouldn't it keep the car on the ground? And then, we wouldn't have as many airborne crashes??? I don't think lessening the speeds by aerodynamics may work. I think that we oughtta let Goodyear come with a different tire compound. I know, sounds stupid, but it seems smart enough to me. 36. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a side note, I hate Fox's pre-race Danicamania. Regardless, interesting stat regarding her. She has still not raced in a NASCAR race on Sunday. Unless I missed a Nationwide race date earlier this year. However, if this race lasts long enough and she's still running, that might change. I know he can't hear me right now, but DSFF, I hope you have a great time out there! I attended the 2010 race here at Kansas, and it blew me away. HOpe this race blows you away also! 37. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think that prior to today, anyone this year has been the pole sitter AND led the first 20 laps. Golly. 38. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biffle looks STRONG in the early going! 39. Spen posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I beleive the Nationwide race at Iowa is on a Sunday, so she'll finally do that next week. 40. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmm. Figures that such a stat wouldn't last that long after I found it. Lap 60-Kyle Busch is your leader. 41. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I grow very Weary of this Spread out Boring Racing 42. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HUH!? Is the above comment a joke? The top four have been boxed up for nearly 75 laps straight! This isn't spread out at all! 43. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought Ned Jarret won that race by 14 laps 44. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No there just hasn't been a lot of passing for the lead. 45. Mr X posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ned Jarrett did win by 14 laps in 1965. 46. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...Okay. But there have been lots of attempts at lead changes I've seen. We are watching the same race right? The 2012 Bojangles' Southern 500 at Darlington? 47. 18fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Darrell Waltrip will ever understand that it is not a good thing that all the cars run the same speed because that means that the cars won't pass each other. 48. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You hit the Nail on the head there 18fan it makes the racing a chore to watch 49. Kyle posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) just passed lap 147, the ammount of laps the nationwide race was last night, in around 1 hour and 15 minutes or so. wow. 50. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Show the debris, Fox. 51. Kyle posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) fake caution out for "debris" 52. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think another reason for lack of cautions is the fact alot of drivers are on contracts and the economy, the car owners say "don't wreck my car" but dont quote me on that please 53. Kyle posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) yeah but @jabber1990 there's a new car coming next year so the current cars will only be used for another few months. 54. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know there is a new ford and a new dodge (maybe) but what about Toyota and Chevy? 55. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason for the phantom debris caution is because of the lead that Jimmie Johnson had. NASCAR will never allow one driver to just dominate a race. Frankly, I'm surprised it took so long for that phantom caution to come out. 56. 18fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man Jimmie Johnson has a fast car. I don't think anybody can touch him without some serious adjustments. 57. BON GORDON posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!! GUESS WHO JUST BLEW ANOTHER TIRE?!!!! 58. New 14&88 Fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What did Jeff Gordon do to piss off lady luck, not even in his rookie season did he have this much bad stuff happen to him. 59. joey2448 posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as Jeff Gordon's season goes, I don't know whether to laugh or cry... 60. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon is toast he should probably sit out the rest of the season and make a fresh start in 2013 61. Rusty posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FOX is worse than ESPN with Danica. I want to throw up listening to Michael talk about how she gets an A+ for driving around slow and not hitting anything. 62. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 05.12.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the love of everything, stop throwing these freaking debris cautions. This is borderline ridiculous. 63. Mr X posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the first race I've seen so far this year where the Kevin Harvick and Shane Wilson combination have made the car better as the race goes, and I found it comical when Danica Patrick hit the pit commitment cone and Darrell Waltrip although jokingly said that "the cone was in the wrong place," as opposed to Danica's car being in the wrong place. 64. Spen posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Danica showed that she learns from her teammate. Getting interesting strategy-wise. 65. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) since Jimmie is short on fuel wont that make his car faster since it is lighter? 66. New 14&88 Fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another good run for Kurt Busch spoiled by a bad break, he and Gordon must be sharing the same dark cloud of rotten luck. 67. Kyle posted: 05.12.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) too bad for kurt...i'll call it advanced karma for running the nationwide race at iowa next week-what should be a nationwide regular only event. 68. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I knew that as soon as Jimmie took the lead for the first time he would win 69. 18fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good job by the 48 team. They had by far the best car the entire race. He was the only guy who had a great car from lap 1 to the checkered flag. 70. New 14&88 Fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rick Hendrick can finally celebrate that 200th win. 71. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) did Jimmie just win his 6th championship? 72. LordLowe posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Welcome back to Victory Lane JJ don't bore us during your winners interview. 73. Spen posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darn it, the one week I don't think Hendrick will win it, Jimmie has to go and pull it off. Congrats to him anyway, at least he finally proves that he can win at Darlington even when it isn't a chase track. 74. cjs3872 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, it's as it was supposed to be. Jimmie Johnson was the only one fitting to score Hendrick Motorsports' 200th victory, given his dominance in the last decade, as with this win, he's scored 56 of the second 100. One thing I'll be interested to see is what happens to Jeff Gordon now that the 200th win for HMS has been scored, because he has not done well at all since Johnson got win #199 at Kansas, and his problems tonight, if not induced by his early wall contact, may seem suspicious. It's as if Hendrick Motorsports was doing everything they could to make sure Gordon did not get Hendrick's 200th. If he starts running better, we'll know that Hendrick wanted Jimmie Johnson, and only Jimmie Johnson to score that milestone victory, as I thought was the case after Johnson scored #199. With this win, Johnson also moves ahead of Rusty Wallace and into sole possession of eighth on the all-time list with 56 winss. Next for Johnson would be Dale Earnhardt, Sr., but he needs another 21 to pass him for seventh place all-time. 75. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) who has more wins? Petty Enterprises or Hendrick? 76. jabber1990 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) did that official get shoved? 77. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just your typical race at the Lady in Black. Hope DSFF had fun tonight, get home safely. Don't make me come out there give you some form of medical treatment i don't how to perform mister. :-P 78. Daniel posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Petty. 200 for Richard, 54 for Lee, 1 for John Andretti, 2 for Bobby Hamilton, 1 for Marcos Ambrose, 3 for Pete Hamilton, 2 for Kasey Kahne. So 263 total, if I haven't forgotten anybody. 79. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great crowd, good race, and great to see Hendrick finally get it's 200th win. As for Gordon's season... ...not so great. 80. 18fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was a really fun race. Also, why was Newman's crew so upset at Kurt and Kurt's crew when it was Almirola who spun Newman. Kurt spun because his tire went down and Almirola didn't check up like Newman did and ran into the back of Newman's car and spun him. Kurt did nothing to Newman to warrant what happened between those pit crews. But, we do know that pit crew guys love to fight. 81. 10andJoe posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I know there is a new ford and a new dodge (maybe) but what about Toyota and Chevy? /All/ cars will be new in 2013. Wholly different body style. 82. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just think Newman's crew member was looking for a fight. I don't see any other reason for him to have confronted Kurt like that. Congrats to HMS on their 200th Cup victory. Didn't think it would come this late after their 199th. Also surprised that the HMS guys were able to hide the celebration stuff from Rick for so long, lol. 83. Spen posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You forgot Buddy Baker's two, Marvin Panch's one, and I guess seven? for Jim Paschal. If you count RPM's wins as continual, they've got 271. And Richard only won 198 for the team, as his last two wins were with Mike Curb. Now let's see if I got this post out before Cjs answered it. :) 84. Jarrett88fan posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a great race from the halfway point on with a little strategy, shuffling, plenty of Darlington stripes to go around and angry pit crews. Oh and Kyle and Harvick weren't close to one another on track to even remotely repeat 2011's post-race antics. Around the time FOX spotlighted Marcos Ambrose cracking the top-10, I assume the #55 team gave up on getting a wave-around because Mark Martin ran 20th-22nd the final 250 laps or so. Even Brad Keselowski who bounced off the wall and went 2 laps down ended up finishing ahead of Mark on the lead lap. I mentioned Mark because he is officially one point ahead of Gordon despite missing 3 races due to a part-time schedule. 85. Eric posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Daniel, Petty Enterprises doesn't have 263 wins because Richard Petty Motorsports isn't the same organization and that is the wrong amount of wins anyway. Richard Petty Mortorsports is a result of merger between Petty Enterprises and Gillett Evernham Motorsports. Petty Enterprises had 268 cup wins. You forgot about Buddy BakermMarvin Panch and Jim Paschal won races for Petty Enterprises. Kasey Kahne and Marcos Ambrose wins are not part of Petty Enterprises, but part of Richard Petty Motorsports. 86. Eric posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot about Mike Curb being the owner for Richards last 2 wins. 87. Anonymous posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) GREAT race! Yet another top 10 for Kahne! 88. MStall41 posted: 05.12.2012 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Solid race tonight. From halfway on the race got really intense. Great, well earned win for JJ. 89. Schroeder51 posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I witnessed Jeff Gordon's bad luck continuing. Knowing his luck, I wouldn't be surprised if something screwed up happened and he ended up somehow winning the All-Star Race (as it's a non-point race) and then proceeding to crash out of the Coke 600. Maybe I was right all along when I said he was going to have a Dale Jr. 2009-type season... The first half of the race...172 straight laps of single-file green flag racing is not all that fun to watch. But the second half of the race was much better, I think. Ended up being probably one of the better races this year. 90. 10andJoe posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #24 sponsor: Drive to End Hunger Charlotte 1 Million / AARP 91. 10andJoe posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #73 sponsor: Dr. Pepper (no Burger King logos on the car) 92. 10andJoe posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #49 sponsor: JPO Absorbents (no AIR logos on the car, at least not prominently) 93. 10andJoe posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #33 sponsor: Little Joe's Autos (was a no-logo car this week, no Link-Belt) (And yes, I really should have condensed these into one post, but my lack of caffination is showing) 94. Michael posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie 56 Hendrick 200 good night 95. irony posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was dumb of the 88 team to pit that late. One pit road mistake for Danica, but other than that a solid night. 96. RaceFanX posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two of Richard Petty's wins in 1970 came racing for Don Robertson, the Petty team sold some of their old equipment to Robertson and the King drove his cars for the dirt track races that season. 97. RaceFanX posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmy Means' famous #52 team returns and competes in a Sprint Cup race for the first time since 1994 (Smut's team attempted a few early 1995 races but DNQed all of them). The revival of the #52 start-and-parked their debut with Mike Skinner at the wheel, IIRC the team was supposed to debut earlier in the year but had sponsorship issues or something. 98. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I loved the racing up to the first "caution" flag, which really put me off the mid-part of the race. Luckily, despite three bogus cautions for excitement, there wasn't any controversy and everybody ended up finishing where they deserved to be.....which is what would have happened if it have have gone green the whole way through anyway. *shrugs*. Awesome run to the finish by Marcos Ambrose. It's been a tough year, but he earned that finish. I was getting real frustrated in the mid-part of the race, as they had turned a bad race-car into a top-15 contender by about lap 100 and were slowly chipping away at it, but then the "caution" flags put a stop to that. Luckily enough, they were able to work through it and score a well deserved top-10. Good work boys. "The reason for the phantom debris caution is because of the lead that Jimmie Johnson had. NASCAR will never allow one driver to just dominate a race. " CJS, what's your opinion on this topic? You never seem to speak up about whether you agree or disagree with it. Personally, I think this policy is an absolute disgrace to racing and an insult to the hard work that the teams put in. I don't know why I complain about it as much as I do though, because I can't see it changing in a hurry and unfortunately, I feel like I'm in the minority too. 99. Bronco posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad that #200 is finally out of the way, now we won't have to hear the constant questions about when it will happen. Dale Jr recorded his worst finish of the year with a 17th place finish. I don't know what the crew chiefs of the 29, 31 and 88 thought they were going to do by giving up track position and pitting on the GWC. I hope this isn't the start of another summer slide. That crewman for Newman must be a real idiot if he couldn't see that the #39 spun after the #51 was already around, and that Almirola was the one that turned Newman. Its a miracle that Ambrose finished in the top 15 even, and that Greg Biffle faded that badly at the end. Jeff Gordon is cursed this year, he has the lowest points standing of all the well funded, competitive multi car teams. Harvick is going to ask for a new crew chief soon (again), he just doesn't have the magic that he did from 2010-2011. 100. Ben posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One thing I'll be interested to see is what happens to Jeff Gordon now that the 200th win for HMS has been scored, because he has not done well at all since Johnson got win #199 at Kansas, and his problems tonight, if not induced by his early wall contact, may seem suspicious. It's as if Hendrick Motorsports was doing everything they could to make sure Gordon did not get Hendrick's 200th. If he starts running better, we'll know that Hendrick wanted Jimmie Johnson, and only Jimmie Johnson to score that milestone victory, as I thought was the case after Johnson scored #199." HAHAHA - What a crock! I suppose Hendrick struck a deal with the #10 team to get Reutimann to stop on the track at Martinsville to ensure Jeff didn't win that race too huh? The bottom line is that Gordon is running fine, he's just run into the most unlucky streak of racing luck I've ever seen. Of course, this sort of makes up for some of the best racing luck I've ever seen during a few stretches from that team in the late 90's. 101. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) MyothercarisanM535i, that's basically been an unofficial NASCAR policy since the mid 1980s, when Bill Elliott dominated the circuit. Bill France, Jr. even told the Elliotts that they could win the races, but they would not stink up the shows, so when someone gets a big lead in one of these races, NASCAR throws a caution to tighten up the field. Now the second caution may have been legitimate, since there may have been tire debris from one of Jeff Gordon's left rear tire failures. My bigger problem is the procedure that allowed drivers such as Marcos Ambrose to get a top ten, because he was lapped twice, but used the wave-around to get those laps back. Now if you noticed during one of the cautions, Denny Hamlin chose not to pit. I believe he did not pit because he did not want Jeff Gordon to get back on the lead lap, which would have happened had he stopped. Of course, this was befre Gordon's more serious problem became apparent. These cautions are what allow other drivers to get laps back. If I were a crew chief, I would tell my driver not to pit, just so others could not get laps back. And Schroeder51, I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff Gordon magicaly started doing better now, since Jimmie Johnson got Hendrick's 200th win. It's obvious that Hendrick wanted Jimmie Johnson to be the one to get that 200th win, and Jeff Gordon has really strugled since Johnson scored win #199 last fall at Kansas. If Gordon does start doing better beginning at Charlotte SpeedWeeks, it will be pretty obvious that the fix was in. But, don't count on Gordon winning either the All-Star Race or the 600 for a fourth time. Remember that Alan Gustafson is still his crew chief, and he has consistently proved that he can't handle the pressure of the big events, and those are two high pressure races. And if Gordon doesn't turn it around, Gustafson will again be proven as a one-year turnaround crew chief t can't produce sustained success, as he was with Mark Martin. Martin had a big 2009, but fell off the map in 2010, even before the announcement that he was leaving Hendrick after the 2011 season. 102. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ben, I'm not sure if he would have beaten Johnson at Martinsville even if that caution hadn't have come out. Sure he had moved ahead of him, but I don't think Johnson was through. I think Johnson would have stayed on his bumper and bumped him out of the way on the final lap. And even if Gordon did win that race, Hendrick would still have preferred Johnson to win that race. It would have been a lot like the fall Nationwide Series race at Texas last fall. Trevor Bayne won that race, but he's not the driver Jack Roush wanted to see win that race. Carl Edwards was the driver Roush wanted to win that race, but Bayne snookered him on a late restart to steal that race. 103. AlmirolaFan88 posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman's crew member was upset at Kurt Busch for angerly speeding through the #39's pitbox after Kurt pitted to assess the damage on his car. He sped through their box, almost hitting that crew guy and an official, and that's what upset Newman's crew. Then I think there was contact between Newman and Kurt after the race, and that's what upset Newman himself. What happened with Almirola was a racing incident, so Newman's crew would have been stupid to direct any anger towards the #43 team anyways. 104. irony posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree #98. I was going to praise NASCAR for the green flag racing, but they blew it. 105. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPDATE FROM DARLINGTON: I found Cale and got his autograph. You can all sleep easy tonight. Got Brad's too! Must have cursed him cause he ran like shit all night. 106. Josh C posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The racing this season has been some of the most boring crock of shit I've seen in my life. Congrats to Hendricks for win 200 it's just too bad it was that johnson Jimmie that won it lol. 107. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) First third of the race was intense, the middle third was a bit better, and the final third was EPIC! I was hoping we could go finish this without a GWC, but still, congrats on my favorite driver, Jimmie Johnson, for earning Hendrick's 200th win, breaking a 16 race winless streak, and for winning the Southern 500 for the second time in his career. I thought Kyle was going to pull some wild move out of his rear on that last restart, but I was wrong. Also, despite Biffle having a poor finish compared to where he was running most of the race, he still has the points lead. Figures. I'll bet a Roush Ford will win the championship now. So now, officially, 23 drivers will be competing in the All Star Race. Here's hoping that we can get Juan Montoya voted in. Also, any quests that Matt Kenseth and/or Brad Keselowski had to win the Winston Million are now erased. Again. The same thing happened in 2009, with Matt winning the Daytona 500 and Kes winning the Aaron's 499. Overall, fun race. Can't hardly wait for a *Hopefully* exciting All-Star event. 108. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, one other thing I forgot. I correctly predicted eight cautions in the event! Ha~! Lucky me! 109. 18fan posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) AlmirolaFan88, thank you for the clarification. I actually just read about that incident, so the 39 team did have reason to be upset with Kurt and the 51 team. 110. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Its a miracle that Ambrose finished in the top 15 even" He was very, very fortunate to have the late cautions go his way, but if the race had've gone green, I have no doubt that the 9 would have been well inside the top-20 towards the end. I'll touch on that in a sec... "My bigger problem is the procedure that allowed drivers such as Marcos Ambrose to get a top ten, because he was lapped twice, but used the wave-around to get those laps back. Now if you noticed during one of the cautions, Denny Hamlin chose not to pit. I believe he did not pit because he did not want Jeff Gordon to get back on the lead lap, which would have happened had he stopped." That's pretty much exactly what happened (the wave around part) - I was following the Marcos Ambrose Twitter updates through the race and the 9 team had planned to take the wave around on that caution, but the 11 staying out prevented that from happening. "MyothercarisanM535i, that's basically been an unofficial NASCAR policy since the mid 1980s, when Bill Elliott dominated the circuit. Bill France, Jr. even told the Elliotts that they could win the races, but they would not stink up the shows, so when someone gets a big lead in one of these races, NASCAR throws a caution to tighten up the field." Every major championship has it's flaws and I feel that this mentality is the one thing holding NASCAR back. Without nonsense like that, NASCAR would be the closest thing to perfect that racing has ever seen. It's not like they're ever going to go back on the direction they've chosen, but then can't they at least be straight up about it and say that NASCAR is all about the spectacle and the show, nothing else? Again, I know, I know. I'm a broken record here and I don't expect people to agree with me, but that's the opinion of this man. 111. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.13.2012 - 3:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now, as for what I mentioned regarding Ambrose's potential to finish top-15 had the race gone green, I'll explain that now and how it is actually not about the 9, but the way a race is changed when a caution is thrown. Ambrose's car was junk at the start, way to loose to make any ground up on the track. But as the race went on, they adjusted it and managed to find a better setup and pickup speed. By the time the third round of green-flag stops had been completed, the 9 was running laps consistently within reach of the leaders, whereas on earlier runs, he was easily a few tenths off. At this point, other teams are doing the opposite of the 9 and struggling to keep up with the changing track, allowing Marcos to begin a slow climb through the field. However, once that first caution flew, it's effectively all over. Despite having a faster car than those ahead of him (he passed the 27 at least three times, that must have been frustrating!), he wasn't able to do anything with it and that's because, with each caution thrown, you're actually reducing the number of cars that are able to race each other - which is the opposite of what NASCAR believes happens. Expanding on that: When we take away the parkers and JJ Yeley (giving him the benefit of the doubt there), we're left with 36 cars in the race. Before the first caution flew on lap 173, we had 36 cars all racing each other. But once that caution flies, all of a sudden the field is split into groups depending on who was on what lap. At that point, there was roughly 15 cars on the lead lap, another 10 one lap down and a half dozen or so two laps down, with the rest further beyond that. Now that they've all been separated by caution, they're no longer equal and no longer able to race each other. Had the race gone green, the 9 (and probably a few others too) would have marched through the field and finished much higher than where they were running after having their progress halted by the caution flag. Of course, you have to plan for all situations in racing and the race was just not going the way of the 9 team. After the first cautions flew, they were lucky to have the late ones go their way to get them back on the lead lap. But this whole scenario is just something I noticed as the race went on - NASCAR is wrong to believe that fake cautions will create a more even playing field, because it actually does the very opposite. 112. hyperacti posted: 05.13.2012 - 3:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm with you, post #98. 113. JG24FanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had a great view of the race from the Pearson tower and was very pleased to see JJ get the win after dominating. As for Gordon I simply laughed when he had a tire go then a tire go I was still cheering him on when he passed by even though he was 28 laps down, his car was actually pretty descent. He'll get his and i'm never gonna let any of this get me down. 114. JG24FanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were people in front of me that stood up every time Danica passed by and that was a little irritating but I was standing up and holding up 5 fingers in the air a lot of the time when Johnson passed by just for funny kicks, but this race was great and I love just hearing the sounds of the engines instead of the numbing commentary(not talking about MRN)that the T.V broadcast insist people want to hear. 115. DaleJrFan posted: 05.13.2012 - 8:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just want Dale Jr to win again. Does anyone think he will ever win again? 116. Anonymous posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Defending winner Regan Smith had all sorts of issues yet he got his best finish of the year. 117. Jarrett88fan posted: 05.13.2012 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, You definitely cursed Brad, but you and Cale gave Denny Hamlin some good luck. I agree with your assessment of how Marcos Ambrose got a top-10 myothercarisanM535i, and the official scoring process is ridiculous. I remember on the second or third restart the 9 ( running 25th or 26th 2 laps down at that point) was lined up ahead of the 55 (running 21st or 22nd 1 lap down) which is a big error. How are cars that go 2 laps down just before a caution comes out, supposed to get those two laps back without the aid of at least one wave around? 118. 10andJoe posted: 05.13.2012 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I remember on the second or third restart the 9 ( running 25th or 26th 2 laps down at that point) was lined up ahead of the 55 (running 21st or 22nd 1 lap down) which is a big error. That's not an error, I don't think. Only the lead-lap cars line up in actual scoring order; laps-down cars are lined up in /track/ order, IIRC, so a car 5 laps down could restart ahead of a car one lap down. >How are cars that go 2 laps down just before a caution comes out, supposed to get those two laps back without the aid of at least one wave around? They're not. This is a flaw in the "Lucky Dog", that makes the system wholly inequitable compared to the "gentleman's agreement" it replaced. Really, the system needs to be reformed to something like this: When the caution comes out, /all/ cars one or more laps down, that are /between the leader and the second place car/, get one lap back. This 'simulates' The Way It Was, where the leader would often slow enough to allow multiple laps cars to pass as he came back to take the yellow. If there are no lapped cars between the leader and second? Do not pass Go, do not collect one lap back, sorry and better luck next time. IOW, /nobody/ gets a lap back in this scenario. So: if you want to get a lap back, prove you're quick enough to hold off the second place car. As for the wave-around: I actually have no problem with it. It does /exactly/ what it's supposed to do: remove the wreck-bait (and often confusing) scenario of often multiple cars restarting on the tail end of the lead lap right in front of the leader, between the leader and the pace car. However, at the risk of being tarred and feathered for HERESY!, I'll say I /don't/ like the double-file restarts. It's an artifical contrivance to "spice up the competition". Restart single file in running order, like they used to, which doesn't de facto penalise the leader by giving the second-place car a free shot at him above and beyond what the caution already provided. (And while pigs are flying, let's ditch the top 35 rule and go back to "fastest 38 then 4 provisionals and PC prov or next fastest", but that's another debate.) 119. Jarrett88fan posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is an ingenious compromise 10andJoe. "When the caution comes out, /all/ cars one or more laps down, that are /between the leader and the second place car/, get one lap back. This 'simulates' The Way It Was, where the leader would often slow enough to allow multiple laps cars to pass as he came back to take the yellow. If there are no lapped cars between the leader and second? Do not pass Go, do not collect one lap back, sorry and better luck next time. IOW, /nobody/ gets a lap back in this scenario." If Nascar enacted the rule 10andJoe proposed, the wave-around should bite the dust. Ideally, all one or more lapped down cars between first and second place have to race just as hard as the potential lucky dog cars do now. 120. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, has anyone noticed that all three of the crown jewels this year have been won by a driver that won it for the second time? Matt Kenseth in the Daytona 500, Brad Keselowski in the spring Talladega race, and now Jimmie Johnson in the Southern 500. All these drivers scored their second wins in the respective events. That means if the same thing happens, the winner of the Coca-Cola 600 will be Kenseth (2000 winner), Mark Martin (2002), Kurt Busch (2010, and he's running well enough to), or Kevin Harvick (2011), since all those drivers have won the 600 one time. Bobby Labonte (1995), Casey Mears (2007) and David Reutimann (2009) also fall into this category, but they're not running well enough to contend. And if a driver wins the Brickyard for a second time this year, the only drivers that could pull that off would be Harvick (won in 2003), Jamie McMurray (2010), and Paul Menard (2011, though only one driver has ever won that race two years in a row). Again, Bobby Labonte, the 2000 winner, is the only other active one-time Brickyard 400 winner, but is not in a competitve car. 121. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What an amazing day and night. For all the races I have been to in the last 22 years, that is the first time I have had pit and garage passes and it was cool as hell. We got to Darlington and parked at about 10am and drove off after the checkerd flag around midnight. In that time, I got to see all that is good and all that needs improvement. For that, I will do something I call The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. And just know, when I say "bad" I just mean stuff that needs to be tweaked or rethought. The Good: Unparalleled Access- For those that can get elusive pit passes (again it took me 22 years), it is amazing how close to the action you can get. Walking right amongst all the crews, and they were fine with it. We are just part of the deal for them. At one point, while everyone was filing out of the meeting and I was waiting for Brad, I found myself face to face with Jack Roush who was walking towards Biff's hauler. I stuck my hand out and said "Nice to see you". He shook my hand and said "Nice to see you too". Then Brad finally walked by, already in uniform, and despite being just 30 min away from race time, a 500 mile race on NASCAR's toughest circuit, he greeted the group approaching him with a smile, said "nice to see you guys" and gave us autographs. Richard Petty- Well before the activity picked up for good, me and my buddy were just wandering down pit road when we saw The King on the other side of the pit wall. We literally lept over the wall where he was walking around, signing every autograph, and agreeing to every picture, including mine. This guy retired 20 years ago, which was 8 years after his last win, and he is still a treasure to all of us, to which he happily obliges. Cale was also there, but he was tough to pin down. I finally found him after losing him once earlier (he is a slippery little shit lol) and got him to sign the same Darlington hat I bought that Richard signed. After all these years, he still has "the walk" down, where you sign autographs while never stopping walking. The fans- Yes, we like to complain about the direction of the sport, the on track activity, and everything else (as SmokeFan will happily point out lol), but they are among the best people out there. Every time I have ever tailgated, I found myself talking to complete strangers that I will never see again like I have known them forever. NASCAR fans are an awesome fraternity to be a part of. Sure some are slightly annyoing (I will get to that), but I love them. Darlington, SC- Couldn't have been more inviting. It may be a little town, sparsely populated in the most sparsely populated state in the continental US and close to.... nothing (Myrtle Beach is a tourist destination, not many residents to draw from), but it was an honor to be there for a day. History and tradition- No sport honors it past quite like NASCAR. Maybe to a fault cause it makes today's action tought to get excited about at times, but it is good to see our appreciation for the past. TO BE CONT.... My computer is having a seizure. 122. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The bad (see my earlier disclaimer): Night races that don't need to be run at night- This is a two fold problem. First off, we have to get home. As I said earlier, despite being a wonderful little town, Darlington is in the middle of nowhere. That means most of us have to travel quite a ways to get there. With the race ending around 11pm, and the 30 min minimum it takes to either get back to your car (if you parked away from the track to avoid traffic) or to deal with traffic if you did park next to the track, that means you will on the roads pretty late at night if you live more than 2 hours away (which I'm willing to bet most of us do). Either that or get fleeced by the local hotels and pay outlandish money to park at a local campground. Secondly, to run a race at night, you obviously need lights and lots of them. This means lots of bugs. Despite somehow lucking into tickets 3 rows from the very top of the frontstretch stands which should have been optimal (and the sight lines were outstanding), I had to battle the bugs all night. Just run the thing in the day. Bogus cautions- I am in favor of long runs and green flag stops. No need to artificially bunch everything up. It just looks bad. We need to quit punishing the people who nailed the setup and helping those that either missed it or pounded the wall and screwed it up. Which leads me to the overall issue.... NASCAR's welfare system- Phantom cautions, lucky dogs, wave arounds, just don't like them. I am a huge Brd K fan, but how the hell did he wind up 15th? Paul Wolfe played it beautifully, but they should have never been given the chance. Quit rendering the first 90% of races useless. The fact we only go to Darlington once- In this race, if you were faster than the car in front of you, and weren't Jamie McMurray, you could just go around him. Why is there only one date? Dale Jr fans- Good people (for the most part), and I certainly don't want to go into SmokeFan territory, but they are highly unreasonable. Every time he passed anybody, even after getting lapped and passing a car already lapped 3 or 4 times, they would all jump up and yell "JUUUUUUN-YERRRRRRRR!". Seriously? And when he got the lucky dog, they treated him like the conquering hero. Ugh. As a Brad fan, cause he ran so bad for hitting the wall, I never cheered when he passed someone. Just kidding, Brad never passed anyone all night unless they were pulling into the garage or spinning out. And even then it took awhile. And when he got his lucky dog, I was half mortified that a night as bad as his was gonna result in a lead lap finish. Definitely no celebration. Danica's post race quotes: She is on record as being pleased with her night. Really? 31st, 6 laps down? I don't care if she is still learning or not, if you are a true competitor, those stats should hurt. Like hell. And finally.... 123. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 2:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The ugly: Kurt Busch- He needs to go. Now. Once again he has shown no concern for the people in the pits, sending the 39 crew scattering then hitting Ryan on pit road. The guy quite simply has psychotic tendencies. And he is not improving. The famous Martinsville burnout of 2003, the Stewart incident of 2007, the guy doesn't give a shit and it was dumb luck he hasn't seriously hurt somebody. Worst of all, there is no improvement. You would think after losing two very well funded rides unceremoniously, and being replaced by much less proven drivers with far less upside, he would say "Hmmmm, I need to make a serious effort to change (last night showed this whole "bring back the fun" and "sports psychologist" stuff is a bunch of crap)". Nope. One of the best talents to come across NASCAR is now nothing more than an irrelevant madman at the end of his rope. Instead of being part of a dynasty somewhere like he has the talent to do, he will go down as the guy who is the focus of about 20 books or documentaries trying to figure out how the hell he screwed it up so bad as they psychoanalyze him from every angle. Look, I want as many talented people in Cup as possible. So although I dislike him, the sport is better when he is in it in a competitive ride. But enough is enough. Time for him get out. He is out of chances. Little Brother, are you watching? This could be you too. You have done well this year, and the sport is likewise better with you in it. Learn your lessons from Big Brother. You've already wasted a lot of chances, don't end up a waste too. 124. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, DSFF, I have to disagree with your assessment on Danica Patrick. She did exactly what she wanted last night. She said her stated goal was to run the full race, do so without incident, and leave with her car in one piece. Sure, she would like to have run better, but how she ran was not her primary objective. Running the full race and finishing was her primary objective, and I'd say "mission accomplished". The only mistake she made was hitting the cone entering pit road, and some of the most accomplished veterans have had trouble getting onto that pit road (Bobby Labonte did last night), so she has nothing to be ashamed of there. As for some of the other things you mention, the phantom caution usually only arrives whe one driver has a big lead, as was the case with Jimmie Johnson last night. In fact, you can almost predict those cautions. This goes back to when the Elliotts dominated in the mid-80s, because Bill France, Jr. actually told them they would not stink up thir shows, so NASCAR throws what amounts to a competition caution when they think someone's getting out to too big a lead. The free pass rule came about as a result of a rule chage for safety, which is why I've never had a big problem with it. But the problem with the wave-arounds has to do with the way it's abused. In fact, Denny Hamlin was so afraid of Jeff Gordon getting back on the lead lap, that he did not pit on one caution period just to prevent that from happening. The only place I think the wave-around has any real purpose is when the caution comes out in the middle of green flag pit stops, as it did at Richmond a few weeks back. And trust me, NASCAR is not the only series that has teams abuse the wave around rule. A few years ago, a car made up eight or ten laps in the 24 Hours of Daytona simply by taking wave arounds. And that incident between Jamie McMurray and A.J. Allmendinger could have been avoided simply by Allmendinger giving McMurray more room. McMurray was actually having a pretty good race until that happened, even running in the top ten briefly, but Allmendinger, who had quite a bit of room above him (more than a full lane), was being bull-headed, as usual, which resulted in another terrible finish out of what should have been at least an average night. I just wonder how much more of this Roger Penske is willing to stand before he makes a change, because if there's one thing Penske won't tolerate, it's mistakes, and Allmendinger keeps making them. In this case, he turned about a 15th-place run into a 33rd-place finish. Marcos Ambrose and Brad Keselowski, Allmendinger's former and current teammates, on the other hand, did exactly the opposite, turning horrible nights into good finishes. Ambrose finished ninth, matching the number on his car, while Keselowski wound up 15th. Maybe Richard Petty knew what he was doing when he decided not to resign Allmendinger. 125. . posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I personally thought Danica Patrick's exciting pass for 31st on the last restart was spectacular and we should all praise her as the next Jimmie Johnson. 126. AFrame43 posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @#114 I would have stood up every time Danica passed by, but I would have only raised one finger. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out which one. 127. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, DSFF, I have to disagree with your assessment on Danica Patrick. She did exactly what she wanted last night. She said her stated goal was to run the full race, do so without incident, and leave with her car in one piece." Well then that is the problem. If you are truly a competitor, any "goals" should come with the automatic assumption that, even if the stated goals are achieved, if you get lapped 5 times (the sixth one was due to a penalty from a pit error, or as we'll call it in 2012, a "June-lowski") and finish 31st, then it is not a success under any circumstance. Especially with highly funded equipment. If you have so much to learn that it is ok to finish that far back, then racing in the Cup Series shouldn't even be on your radar. BTW, speaking of Kurt, apparently he had yet another radio meltdown. So I went to YouTube to find it. Couldn't find this specific one, but there is a post on YouTube put up in January called Kurt Busch: Regoholic that is just a compilation of all of his on track, off track, and radio incidents in his career through the end of 2011. It lasts ONE HOUR AND FOURTEEN MINUTES!!!!!! Kurt Busch ladies and gentlemen, 128. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "@#114 I would have stood up every time Danica passed by, but I would have only raised one finger. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out which one." Was it your index finder to indicate the number of professional wins she has since she moved up from go karts (including the IRL and that European open wheel feeder Series), your pinky finger to indicate where you can find more driving ability on every other driver in the field (except McDowell), your ring finger to indicate the ring for winning the Snowball Derby fellow female driver Johanna Long got, or your thumb to express you are proud of her for not tearing anything up, even if it means getting lapped 5 times? I can't figure it out. 129. Travis posted: 05.13.2012 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The wave arounds/free passes are an absolute joke. I don't even know why I watch the first half of these races anymore because Nascar likes it to reward incompetence just so they can keep guys who have no business being on the lead lap in contention. Why even try to be good early? Nascar will just take any advantage you gained away with "debris" cautions and undo any of the work you did to lap people with wave arounds and free passes. I mean going one lap down early in the race is literally not a big deal now the way Nascar runs things - And that's just sad. If Nascar wants things more exciting early in the race, they should drop the wave arounds/free passes because I can guarantee you there would be a whole hell of a lot more action with guys bttling the leader to stay on the lead lap. I miss a Nascar where a first half of the race actually meant something. Now, as long as you don't wreck or have a huge mechanical failure, it really doesn't. 130. 1995z71 posted: 05.13.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another boring race in this so far disappointing 2012 Cup Series. Marcos Ambrose gets his first top 10 of 2012. 131. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Travis, drivers can actually control the wave arounds by simply not pitting during the caution, as Denny Hamlin did on one caution period last night, but the free pass rule was done as a way for drivers who have bad luck during the race, or are not running that well early, to be able to make up lost ground when NASCAR correctly ended the obscenely dangerous practice of racing back to the caution flag, so I can see the logic in that. The wave-around is just a byproduct of a rule NASCAR passed to ensure that the leaders would always be the first to get the green flag on a restart, which was another great idea. After all, he last thing that is needed is for cars trying to stay in front of the leaders to wipe out the leaders by starting a crash trying to stay in front of them, which has happened. But the problem is that the wave-arounds just get out of hand in some races. Like I said, a few years ago in the 24 Hours of Daytona, one car made up eight or ten laps on wave-arounds alone, so the problem of abusing the wave-around is not just limited to NASCAR. Again, the only good time for the wave-arounds is when a caution comes out in the middle of green flag pit stops, because cars are trapped laps down that truly don't deserve to be laps down, so the wave-around, in that instance, corrects that oversight. 132. Travis posted: 05.13.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know why the wave around/free pass rule is in place cj s, I'm questioning whether it's a good idea or not, and I think it's horrible. Again, this rule severely minimizes the importance of the first half of the race. You take all the work that a few drives and teams accomplished by working their asses off and hitting the set up from the get go and flush it down the toilet. I think that sucks. 133. Smiff_99 posted: 05.13.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I found the 'Kurt Busch: Rageaholic' video a few weeks back. Isn't it INSANE? We all knew he had issues, but once I watched that video (all 75 mins of it) and saw ALL of his 'episodes' put togther....I found it tough/hilarious to watch. 134. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, the wave around rule does diminish what happens in the first half of the race, but the lead drivers can control that by not pitting under caution. And this would figure to happen early in a fuel run when the leaders pit. If a caution were to come out later in a fuel run, the odds of this happening would be greatly diminished because everyone would need fuel, except for those that had just pitted before the caution came out. The question is, what would you do to alleviate this? I threw around the idea last year of just putting those that didn't pit at the back of the field when the green comes out (which is where the wave around cars would start anyway), but was told the only reason that wouldn't work is that it would disturb the order of the race, as far as where the cars were running on the track in comparison to the leader. But allowing one car per caution to make up a lap would hardly be considered throwing what happened in the first half of the race away, and NASCAR thought the same way in 2003 when they created the free pass rule in place of racing back to the caution. 135. Baker posted: 05.13.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with the guy who said you should only get your lap back if you can stay ahead of the second place car. Tony is going to get one of these before he hangs his helmet up, 136. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Baker, most of the time, the second place car is the next car in line behind the leader, which is why he's in second, so that idea makes little or no sense. And besides, the free pass car is the highest scored car not on the lead lap, but that car does not necessarily have to be just one lap down. And also, who's to say that Stewart is ever going to win this race. After all, his record in the crown jewels, as far as winning goes, is terrible, except for his two Brickyard 400 wins. He's never won the Daytona 500, the Coca-Cola 600 (though he should have at least one, if not two wins in that race), or the Southern 500. And remember that Rusty Wallace seemed like a sure thing to win this race one day, but he never won it. And actually, the list of top champions not to win this race is substantial. Among the elite drivers never to win this race are Tim Flock, Lee Petty, Fred Lorenzen, Junior Johnson, Benny Parsons, Bobby Isaac, Rusty Wallace, and Stewart. Of those, only Lorenzen and Johnson never won a championship, and that's mostly because he never tried to win the championship. And let's not forget that Richard Petty only won this race once and, much like the Daytona 500, it took David Pearson (16 tries) and Darrell Waltrip (19 tries) forever to win this race. 137. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about the rageoholic video is that it isn't strung out with a bunch of useless commentary. It is just a compilation of all his greatest hits (or misses). One hour and fourteen minutes of Kurt feuding, wrecking, and cussing. Insanity. And now we could tack on another one for this race. 138. Matthew Tesfaye posted: 05.13.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't worry folks Jeff Gordon will come back and will have good luck for the rest of the season. Otherwise it might be Jeff Gordon's worst season in his NASCAR career. 139. JG24FanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is Jimmie Johnson's 12th career Crown Jewel win surpassing Dale Earnhardt and Richard Petty for third all-time putting him behind only Bobby Allison(13)and Jeff Gordon(20) and I think it's safe to say Jimmie will surpass Bobby within the next 2 season's but he'll never catch Gordon. 140. Spen posted: 05.13.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you have so much to learn that it is ok to finish that far back, then racing in the Cup Series shouldn't even be on your radar." Kyle Busch's best finish after two Cup starts was 32nd. At that was at Charlotte, a far easier track than Darlington. Just saying. 141. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes DSFF, the only reason that Danica said that her only real goal was to finish the race with her car in one piece, and without incident had to do with where they were racing, which was the toughest track on the circuit. Remember that she never really got to run in the Daytona 500, since she was one of those caught up in the lap 2 crash, so this was really her first time in a Cup race, and being able to finish the Southern 500 without incident was something she can be proud of. I can remember Terry Labonte telling the story of how the car he ran in the 1978 Southern 500 (the #92 Billy Hagan Racing car) was involved in a lot of trouble in the 1977 race, and that his goal was just to finish the race and not make the highlight reels, and he did a lot more than that, though oddly enough, he finished twice as far behind the winner as did Patrick, though he finished fourth. If you can run the entire race in the Southern 500 as a rookie and not run into trouble, that's an acomplishment. You'll probably see Danica step on it a little more at Charlotte, which is a much easier track than Darlington (though that's not saying much, since just about every track is much easier than Darlington). 142. Red posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By my count, Jimmie only has 11 crown jewels, if you're counting the Dega spring race: 3 Coke 600's 3 Brickyard 400's 2 Springs Dega's 2 Southern 500's 1 Daytona 500 However, I feel strongly that Talladega should NOT count as a crown jewel. Of all the tracks on the circuit, Dega produces the most fluke winners and probably requires less driving skill than any other track. I know it was originally considered a special race because it was held on the longest and fastest track, but that doesn't mean anything nowadays with restrictor plates. Also, the two Dega races are identical, both being 500 mile day races, so why arbitrarily choose the spring race as the jewel? Winston doesn't even sponsor it anymore. And lastly, it seems unfair to give modern drivers five crown jewels a year, while pre-Indy drivers only had four. Sorry Dega, you're out. Really, the only crown jewel that's truly a driver's race is the Southern 500. The rest are plate races or aero-dependent strategy festivals. That's why crown jewels mean nothing to me in evaluating a driver's career. I'm far more impressed by a Martinsville or Dover win than a Coke 600 or Daytona 500 victory. Plus, unlike other sports, NASCAR's majors feature the same fields as all their other events, so don't tell me it's "harder" to win a crown jewel than a regular race, when the competition is exactly the same. 143. Red posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With the start & park brigade in full force, I've been going through each recent season and noting how many S&P cars started each race. Here are the number of legitimate cars per race in each season since the 43-car field began in 1998: 2012: 37.81 2011: 37.67 2010: 38.22 2009: 39.53 2008: 43.00 2007: 43.00 2006: 42.50 2005: 42.00 2004: 39.72 2003: 42.67 2002: 42.61 2001: 42.97 2000: 43.00 1999: 43.00 1998: 43.00 Over the last 15 years, we've been trending towards smaller and smaller fields, with a temporary spike in 2007-08 because of Toyota's new teams. In 2013, we should have more legit cars, with Roush's #6 and SHR's #10 probably running full time, plus a possible third Penske car and a potential second Furniture Row entry. Eventually the #33 RCR car will likely return, and perhaps BK Racing will run the #73 full time in the future as well. Besides, the economy is improving, albeit slowly, so NASCAR should have better days ahead. 144. cjs3872 posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, you say that of all the crown jewel races, that Talladega produces more fluke winners. However, for some reason or other, that was mostly true of the second Talladega race more than the spring race. Of all the drivers that recorded their first wins at Talladega, only three did so in the spring race, Davey Allison (1987), Phil Parsons (1988), and Brad Keselowski (2009). However, the list of oddball winners in the second Talladega race include Richard Brickhouse, James Hylton, Dick Brooks, Lennie Pond, Ron Bouchard, Bobby Hillin, Jr., and Brian Vickers. (I don't put Ken Schrader in that list because he actually had a solid career and was in a strong car at the time of his victory.) But the list of strange and surprise winners in the Daytona 500 is much longer than you think it is. That list includes Tiny Lund, Mario Andretti, Pete Hamilton, Benny Parsons, Derrike Cope, Michael Waltrip (twice), Ward Burton, and most recently, Trevor Bayne. And that doesn't even include the oddball winners in the Firecracker 400, there have been quite a few in that race, as well. In other words, your theory about Talladega not being a crown jewel race doesn't fly. And it was made a crown jewel race partially because it's the fastest track. In other words, there have been more fluke winners at Daytona than there have been at Talladega. And the cars are now so fast at Darlington that even the Southern 500 is dependent on aerodynamics, especially because of how narrow the racing groove is. In fact, the aero-push may be worse there than at any place other than Indy (where the aero-push phenomenon started) or Pocono because the racing groove is so narrow. 145. JG24FanForever posted: 05.13.2012 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red Thanks, I was having a senior moment but at least he is tied for third so I was half-ass right The Spring Talladega event was a Crown Jewel from inception in 1970 and is considered the Worlds fastest race because of the Qualifying record speed in 1987 and the all-time fastest race in the caution free event in 1997. 146. Red posted: 05.13.2012 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In fact, the aero-push may be worse there than at any place other than Indy (where the aero-push phenomenon started) or Pocono because the racing groove is so narrow." I disagree. The aero-push at Darlington is noticably less of an issue than it is at all the cookie cutters, particularly the ones like Charlotte with fresh pavement. At Darlington, the faster car is almost always able to make the pass eventually, especially as the tires wear out. Conversely, at 1.5 mile tracks, we commonly see a slow car stay out on old tires and hold the lead for an entire run, because his faster pursuers just hit a wall of dirty air and can't pass him. As far as what counts as a crown jewel and what doesn't, I think you and I are looking at the question from totally different perspectives. For you, it's all about how prestigious and iconic the race is, and for me it's all about the test of driver skill. Here is my hierarchy of races, in terms of how much I value them: Tier 1: Short Tracks, Road Courses, Dover, Darlington, Rockingham Tier 2: Phoenix, Loudon, Atlanta Tier 3: Pocono, Indy, Intermediates w/ worn pavement Tier 4: Intermediates w/ new pavement Tier 5: Daytona and Talladega This is why the same driver can be perceived as underrated by one person and overrated by another; we all value different accomplishments. A great example is Dale Jarrett. A person who values crown jewels would say Jarrett is a historically great driver, based on his six major wins, including three Daytona 500 trophies. That's what I'm guessing you would say. Conversely, someone who values driver tests would say Jarrett racked up most of his wins on horsepower tracks with the aid of dominant Yates engines, and only 11 of his 32 wins came on real driver's tracks. That's what I think, and to me Jarrett is probably the most overrated driver in NASCAR history with 20+ wins. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but my point is that there isn't a right or wrong way to judge crown jewels, but rather a simple matter of personal opinion. 147. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, I don't think Dale Jarrett is a historically great driver. In fact, I don't even rank him in my top 20 of all-time, but Dale Jarrett was a driver that, more often than not, came through when the big money was on the line. And yes, I consider the crown jewel races to be the historically most significant in the sport, much like the Masters, U.S. and British Opens, and the PGA Championship are to golf, and the Australian, French, and U.S. Opens, and Wimbledon are to tennis. There are only a handful of races that, if you win, will carry on, even after a driver's death, and the spring race at Talladega is one of them. The reason being that they are the biggest and most iconic races in the sport. They may not be held on driver's tracks, but the tracks they are held on are known throughout the world of racing. Win a race at those tracks and you becoame known forever in the sport's history. And if the aero-push problem is not significant, then why was Elliott Sadler able to hold off his pursuers until he got wrecked. And Denny Hamlin was able to keep the lead, despite being on older tires in the Cup race because he was in front. And even in the 2007 Southern 500, Jimmie Johnson was able to hold off Jeff Gordon on the last race before the last repaving until his ill-fated late-race caution flag pit stop. Then Jeff Gordon was able to hold off those when he got in front, so yes, aero-push is a big problem at Darlington. Why else did we hardly see any racing up front other than air. All the passing happened on restarts, and other passes were achieved when one driver simply pulled over. Remember that the groove at Darlington is narrower than at any other track on the circuit, so it's even harder to find clean air if you get behind someone, so while handling and mechanical grip are important at Darlington, so is clean air. 148. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.14.2012 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darlington is an aero sensative race track, if the groove wasn't so narrow then guys could pass easily. But is narrow (dare i say more narrow then Indy is). Lets not forget, Darlington was designed for guys to run about 120mph, these guys are running 180mph (Indy wasn't even designed for speeds above 140mph). However, Darlington and Indy are both tough places to race because it is so hard to pass, you HAVE to earn it at those places. Which makes them special. Darlington is still Darlington (and if you find Darlington boring then there is something wrong with you). Indy isn't was it used to be. NASCAR has overstayed it welcome and the 500 doesn't mean what it used to. (Spen don't repeat this on that small forum your apart of, i'll get stoned, tar and feathered and shot at dawn for saying that) 149. 10andJoe posted: 05.14.2012 - 12:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >But Baker, most of the time, the second place car is the next car in line behind the leader, which is why he's in second, so that idea makes little or no sense. It makes sense when you consider that it converts the current "Lucky Dog" system, in which the first car one or more laps down gets a lap back /even if they're pulling into the garage to park/ (which I've seen more than once with early cautions and S&P cars), to something very similar to the way it was /before/ the 'benificiary rule' was imposed, except without the high potential for carnage of racing back to the yellow flag. Basically: -If you are running on the track between the first and second place cars when the yellow comes out, and you are one or more laps down: you get one lap back, the same as you would have had the field not been frozen and the leader slowed to let you past coming to take the yellow. If you /aren't/ between the first and second place cars: tough turkey, run faster in the next stint. This eliminates "undeserving" laps back, while - as I mentioned - making the system comparable to the way it was for years under the old Gentleman's Agreement. The downside is that you no longer have lapped cars given a chance to get a lap back on a restart... As for the wave-around: I fully support it. It makes sense, it improves safety, and while there is (as pointed out with the 24 Hours) the potential for abuse, its just another card to play in the strategy game, IMHO. 150. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But with the curent restart rules, lapped cars are at the other end of the field from where the leaders are, so how can they possibly get between the first and second place cars to get a lap back? After all, the current restart rule, which I completely support, has all the leaders together in race order, then all the lapped cars in the order in which they were running on the track, followed by all the penalized cars. 151. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And 10andJoe, what happens if, during a sequence of green flag pit stops, the second place car is one lap down? There's another hole in your theory right there, as far as the free pass goes. I was watching the 1979 Talladega 500 last night on YouTube, and for the last 120 miles, Darrell Waltrip was a full lap ahead of the field, at Talladega, no less. 152. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.14.2012 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the "big announcement" for sponsorship on Matt Kenseth's car (which I thought would solve their issues, turned out to just be a 4 race (plus The All Star Race) deal. WHAT THE F**K? Jack Roush, why can you not get sponsorship for a Series champion and 2 time (and current) Daytona 500 winner? I should have asked him that when I saw him in the garage. But he he was super nice to all the fans, so I have to credit him for that. 153. Daniel posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 22 cars listed for the Sprint Showdown: -Stephen Leicht in the Joe Falk #33 -Tony Raines in the Tommy Baldwin #36 -Scott Speed in the #95 154. 10andJoe posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >But with the curent restart rules, lapped cars are at the other end of the field from where the leaders are, so how can they possibly get between the first and second place cars to get a lap back? Er...we must be crossing wires here. What I'm saying is to replace the Lucky Dog, not the wave-around. Cars that have been lapped by the leader, but not yet by the second-place car, would be the ones getting the free pass, in exactly the same way things were in the past when the leader would slow to let lapped cars get mulligans when the caution flag waved. >And 10andJoe, what happens if, during a sequence of green flag pit stops, the second place car is one lap down? Simple: if there are no cars on the lead lap other than the leader, then the second place car gets one lap back. 155. 10andJoe posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Entry list for the Sprint Showdown is out. 22 cars are entered; it's a shame that things aren't like they used to be when the likes of Delma Cowart, Steve Seligman and so forth would turn out in droves to get their one good shot at glory... Anyway. No real surprises here...aside from Tony Raines, not Dave Blaney, being in the 36?? #1 McMurray, #10 Reutimann, #13 Mears, #19 Bliss, #20 Logano, #22 Allmendinger, #26 Wise, #30 Stremme, #31 Burton, #33 Leicht, #36 Raines, #38 Gilliland, #42 Montoya, #43 Almirola, #47 B.Labonte, #49 Yeley, #56 Truex Jr., #83 Cassill, #87 Nemechek, #88 Earnhardt Jr., #93 Kvapil, #95 S.Speed. 156. Daniel posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robert Richardson Sr.'s #23, Frank Stoddard's #32, and Stacy Compton's #74 not entered in the Showdown. 157. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But 10andJoe, I know you're referring to the free pass, but what I'm saying is that what if a caution comes out close enough to a restart that the leaders haven't even approached traffic. There would be no way for any cars to be between the first and second place cars, because they'd be at the opposite end of the field on the restart. Your idea might have had merit before NASCAR changed the restart procedure. But if they took your idea, nobody would ever get a lap back on the track, because lapped cars and lead lap cars start at opposite ends of the field. And of the 22 cars entered in the Showdown, only seven have a real chance of racing their way in, and we know, because of the idotic fan vote, that one of those seven is already in the All-Star Race, and that would be Dale Earnhardt, Jr., though in fairness, he should be in anyway, since he's in the top five in points. Other than Earnhardt, Jr., the only other drivers that even have a chance to race their way in are Jamie McMurray (who should be in from his crown jewel wins in 2010), Joey Logano, A.J. Allmendinger, Jeff Burton, Juan Montoya, Aric Almirola, and Martin Truex, Jr. Everyone else, including 2000 NASCAR champion Bobby Labonte, are there for the paycheck from the Sprint Showdown and the extra test session for the Coca-Cola 600. But only seven drivers have a chance to race their way into the All-Star Race. 158. Sean posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "your pinky finger to indicate where you can find more driving ability on every other driver in the field (except McDowell)" Hmm, but McDowell has an overall win in Grand-Am co-driving with Memo Gidley (who was in the car at the end of the race), so maybe they're even. Not that Grand-Am has been a major source of talent in Cup (Andy Lally was...not good and Scott Pruett, who is dominating in Grand-Am now in his FIFTIES was not good on ovals in Cup despite all that CART IndyCar experience in the glory days...granted, the #32 sucked). But neither has CART or IRL (besides Tony Stewart - whom I think mostly succeeded because of his USAC experience in an era when few CART/IRL drivers had any, who is the next most successful in recent years? It's between Robby, JPM, and John Andretti...) Nor do I think Jimmie Johnson could go over to IndyCar and threaten Dario Franchitti or Will Power either (although I do think he'd be better than Power on ovals with experience). Apples and oranges. I don't see one as superior to the other. But I'm just reminding you that McDowell HAS at least won something, and it might be more impressive than Danica's fuel mileage win (against a short field as all the merged drivers from Champ Car like Will Power, Graham Rahal, Paul Tracy, and Oriol Servia were competing at Long Beach that weekend and NOT at Motegi). I view Danica as essentially the female version of Casey Mears. Their stats in the open wheel feeder series were very similar (Mears won ONE race in Indy Lights while Danica won nothing in Toyota Atlantic, and they were both consistent in points but didn't lead much in series that had roughly equal talent pools), and Mears's brief CART/IRL appearances seem similar to what Danica did as well - kind of consistent but nothing spectacular. And we all know how great Mears did when he started in NASCAR. I think this comparison is closer than the Junior/Mears comparison, even more so since their only professional wins in the last decade were all fuel mileage...except for Mears's bizarre win in the 24 Hours of Daytona with Scott Dixon and Dan Wheldon (Wheldon himself was not a great road racer either...that's why he was rideless for most of last year's IndyCar season, then forced to start last in a gimmicky promotion in the final race, etc..., etc... He would have been a MUCH better IndyCar to Cup transition than most, since he was MUCH better on ovals than Hornish and Franchitti in my mind... I can't even BELIEVE Ganassi picked Franchitti over him when Wheldon WANTED to go to NASCAR, was a much better oval driver, and ended up being REPLACED by Franchitti in IndyCar when Ganassi had no other place for him...) I don't like most of NASCAR's gimmicks, but I was actually fine with the lucky dog when it was introduced because I didn't like how leaders would slam on the brakes to let their distant, distant teammates (or worse, non-team cars for the same manufacturer) back on the lead lap, which happened far too often for my liking. The lucky dog let ONE car get a lap back, which was better than the usual five or ten. I always thought it should be the lapped car closest to the leader, even if the leader was multiple laps down though... With the wave-around rule however I would now dump the lucky dog and just go with that. I think wave-around is an improvement because I kind of thought the tail end of the lead lap cars were tacky, unprofessional, and often badly interfered with the race by causing crashes ahead of the leaders (I actually felt sorry for Kyle Busch in the 2009 Daytona 500 after losing what should have been an easy win simply because Junior decided to have a hissy fit in front of the entire field in that solution, ESPECIALLY when he missed the chase by only 8 points...most blamed Kyle himself especially after the summer Daytona race when he blocked Stewart, but I remembered the Daytona 500, which he should have won and finished even worse due to no fault of his own...) Yet people will probably say Kyle has never won a Daytona 500 because he "cracks under pressure". I will agree that he hasn't won a title for that reason... The solution is just ditching the stupid debris cautions. The NASCAR races this year (except on plate tracks as usual) have been extremely clean. There have only been about 2-3 legitimate cautions in most non-plate races this year and if you simply can the joke debris cautions (which are now almost all of them, and usually directly responsible for the actual crash cautions on restarts), the wave-around won't be an issue since there won't BE many cars on the lead lap, and there might be only 5 or 10 even one lap down, so there would be far less to be gained. If they cut the stupid debris cautions for once at Darlington (which it looked like they were going to), the race would have played out naturally even with wave-arounds. I'm a fan of wave-arounds, and the only thing I don't like about the way NASCAR does it is that there are TOO MANY CAUTIONS. Is the wave-around REALLY more of a gimmick than the tail end of the lead lap cars wreaking havoc in front of the leaders? I don't think so. 159. Sean posted: 05.14.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm 100% with Red on being most impressed with drivers who win on different tracks and not caring about crown jewels. I don't understand the argument that people who win those races thrive better under pressure than drivers who win at Bristol or Martinsville or wherever. I personally think there is far more pressure on the short tracks and road courses than a track like Charlotte, but whatever. Therefore, in terms of driving talent, Rusty Wallace > Bill Elliott, Tony Stewart > Jimmie Johnson, Ernie Irvan > Dale Jarrett (and even Davey Allison in my mind). Others will likely disagree. I don't QUITE agree with Red's rankings. If I were doing five tiers, I would go: 1. Bristol/Martinsville/Richmond/Sears Point/Watkins Glen 2. Darlington/Dover/Loudon/Phoenix/Rockingham 3. Atlanta/Indy/Pocono 4. all other 1.5-2 mile ovals except Atlanta 5. Daytona/Talladega But I am definitely LEAST impressed by success on the plate tracks, post-2000 at least. Daytona I'll accept as a crown jewel due to its history, but far too much of Talladega's history has been ugly for me to support it, especially in the plate era. "Tiny Lund, Mario Andretti, Pete Hamilton, Benny Parsons, Derrike Cope, Michael Waltrip (twice), Ward Burton, and most recently, Trevor Bayne" I would certainly remove Andretti and Parsons from a list of "weird" winners. I know Andretti only won once, but he won EVERYWHERE, in all kinds of cars (basically succeeding at doing what Montoya is trying to do, as Montoya has not yet succeeded in Cup despite succeeding everywhere else...) Listing him as a fluke winner with Cope and Waltrip seems kind of offensive to me. But then I always liked Andretti better than Foyt. Nonetheless, either you list BOTH Andretti and Foyt on the list or neither. I say neither. And Benny Parsons? He won all over the place, sometimes not in great cars, and had ten straight top ten points seasons, and won his title for probably the weakest championship owner of the modern era (I say Rod Osterlund and Billy Hagan are both > L.G. DeWitt). Remove Andretti and Parsons and I'll probably agree. Now, despite my disliking of horsepower tracks relative to driver's tracks, I would still list Jarrett as great, but my list of great Cup drivers would be much, much longer than I suspect most other fans' lists would be. I'm going to exclude people like Andretti, Foyt, Gurney, Parnelli Jones, Rutherford, and Montoya whose greatness was mostly outside stock cars, but will certainly list Stewart due to his overwhelming Cup success and will list drivers who were more dominant in other NASCAR divisions... I'm just ranking drivers I consider great by wins, not by the order I think they should be ranked (that's a post for another day...) Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Jeff Gordon, Darrell Waltrip, Cale Yarborough, Dale Earnhardt, Jimmie Johnson, Rusty Wallace, Lee Petty, Ned Jarrett, Junior Johnson, Herb Thomas, Buck Baker, Tony Stewart, Bill Elliott, Mark Martin, Tim Flock, Bobby Isaac, Fireball Roberts, Dale Jarrett, Rex White, Fred Lorenzen, Joe Weatherly, Kyle Busch (I'll get hate for this but I really don't see why except his lack of championships anyone would deny him at this point - and I think championships are overrated anyway), Ricky Rudd, Terry Labonte, Ricky Rudd, Terry Labonte, Benny Parsons, Davey Allison, Buddy Baker, Geoff Bodine, Harry Gant, Marvin Panch, Curtis Turner, Ernie Irvan, Dick Hutcherson, LeeRoy Yarbrough, Tim Richmond, Paul Goldsmith, Bob Welborn, Marshall Teague, Alan Kulwicki, Hershel McGriff, Red Byron, Ray Elder Don't quite make the cut for greatness YET but might/probably will in the future: Kurt Busch (though it's starting to look less and less likely), Matt Kenseth (definitely more consistent than Kyle, but I'm more impressed by Kyle raw talent-wise), Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin (probably the closest to great among the current drivers I did not list, even though I can't stand him), Kevin Harvick (unfortunately), Greg Biffle, Kasey Kahne, Brad Keselowski Not great: Jim Paschal, Jeff Burton (almost always second-tier versus his teammates, some of whom themselves are not great - Harvick), Bobby Labonte (way too many wins on 1.5s and not enough elsewhere), Jack Smith (his racism prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list), Speedy Thompson (him ending Herb Thomas's career by team orders prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list), Fonty Flock, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Ryan Newman, Dick Rathmann, Donnie Allison, Sterling Marlin, Cotton Owens (as a car owner/crew chief, certainly), all others with fewer than 10 wins As you can see, I would list a LOT of drivers as great. Some people are selective about woulda-coulda-shoulda drivers, usually including Davey Allison and Neil Bonnett and Tim Richmond but ignoring people like Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine. I probably tended to air on the side of generosity in that regard. Sure, Jarrett was great. I don't think the level of superspeedway dominance he had was meaningless, and he was dominating plate races when they meant far more than they do today. But I would pick him as one of the bottom ten drivers of those I listed as great probably... Kudos to anyone who actually read both posts. 160. Sean posted: 05.14.2012 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "even if the leader was multiple laps down though..." I meant to say, "even if the CAR CLOSEST TO THE LEADER was multiple laps down though". If I'm going to write such long posts, I really need to proofread them. 161. Sean posted: 05.14.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "in that solution" in that SITUATION. "air on the side of caution" Obviously, ERR on the side... Man, that was stupid. 162. JG24FanForever posted: 05.14.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean you are brilliant "Not great: Jim Paschal, Jeff Burton (almost always second-tier versus his teammates, some of whom themselves are not great - Harvick), Bobby Labonte (way too many wins on 1.5s and not enough elsewhere), Jack Smith (his racism prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list), Speedy Thompson (him ending Herb Thomas's career by team orders prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list), Fonty Flock, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Ryan Newman, Dick Rathmann, Donnie Allison, Sterling Marlin, Cotton Owens (as a car owner/crew chief, certainly), all others with fewer than 10 wins" I would remove Fonty Flock and put him in the almost categorie. And remember that Marshall Teague had back-back Beach-Course wins and 7 wins in 23 career starts,he was great. 163. Spen posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean: Fonty Flock deserves to be on the 'great' list. Aside from winning nineteen Cup races in only 153 starts, he also won the 1947 NCSCC championship, the 1949 Modified championship, and under any system that doesn't give the Southern 500 six times as many points as the other races, he wins the 1951 Cup title as well. From 49-51, he and Curtis Turner were clearly the guys to beat on a weekly basis. I'd even go as far as to say that his natural ability was higher than Tim's. Tim just had the great fortune of being given the top spot at Kiekaefer's team, which was so blantently superior to everyone else, it was an embaressment if they didn't win. Yeah, his brief stint in Kiekaefer's second car wasn't exactly stellar, but he'd already started his insurance company by that point, and was mostly a 'hobby racer' at that stage of his career. "him ending Herb Thomas's career by team orders prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list" I wouldn't say that's a particularly fair call. If intentionally wrecking a competitor is grounds for disbarrment, Carl Edwards should have zero chance of ever making the greats list, Ricky Rudd should be disqualified, and Earnhardt... woo boy. Give me enough time, and I could come up with a good reason to disqualify most of those drivers for that reason. And it's not like Speedy was *trying* to end Herb's career. The goal was to wreck him, and cost him a lot of points. They were racing on a standard half-mile track, not an inherently dangerous one like Langhorne or Memphis-Arkansas, so how was he to know that it would end like it did? In any event, his stats probably don't rate high enough to make the list, but he did do the best of any driver in Kiekaefer's 'B' team, so I can give him credit for that, at least. "his racism prevents me from ever putting him on any positive-themed list" So Ty Cobb shouldn't be in the Baseball HOF? There's plenty of good reasons for excluding Smith (like Burton, he was clearly second-tier his whole career) without getting into his off-track opinions. And if you want to get into that, Buck Baker's refusal to give Wendell Scott the trophy for his win is a far more blatent sign of racism than anything Smith ever did. Bob Welborn? Really? Yeah, he was awesome in a convertable, but he was far from a dominant force in Cup. He benifited from the small number of greats in the late fifties (much like how Jarrett, Burton and Bobby Labonte took advantage of the lack of non-Gordon greats in the late ninties.) 164. Anonymous posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ward Burton shouldn't be on the same list as Cope or Waltrip in terms of Daytona 500 winners. Ward Burton actually is underrated as a cup driver. His problem was being loyal to Bill Davis. The way it is Ward won at Darlington 2 times, and Rockingham once as wins that are not considered flukes. The other thing is Bill Davis Racing really wasn't good as a cup team before Ward Burton or after Ward Burton. That means Ward Burton made BDR better than they actually were with it partly caused by his owner Bill Davis. Bill Davis matter of fact hurt his own organization by going to dodge and later on working with Toyota while still being under Dodge back in 2002 or 2003 besides the fact he had problems with a 2nd car. 165. Sean posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speedy Thompson and Jack Smith's stats are not enough to overcome their controversies. I would probably opt for some other drivers with identical stats without these off-track incidents. I think most of the other drivers listed (even Rudd) have done enough to overlook their on-track or on-track issues. Likewise, Ty Cobb was a racist who also had great credentials, which Jack Smith did not have and Buck Baker did. You're right, to be fair, I should just make arguments based on stats, but I find it especially hard in those two particular cases, which I find more offensive than almost anything more modern drivers like Rudd or even Edwards or Kyle Busch have done. I admit I was thinking of all NASCAR series when I listed Welborn, McGriff, and Elder. Based on Cup alone, none of them make it. Fonty Flock is a truly borderline case, but I can see your argument. 166. Anonymous posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention Ward had the talent to be a 2nd tier driver that was on a maybe 2nd or 3rd tier cup team in Bill Davis Racing. 167. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #158 - Excellent post, Sean. I also have to agree with CJS earlier comment about how it's now basically impossible to get a lap back without the wave around or lucky dog....again using the example of Marcos Ambrose in this race to back that up, whilst he was two laps down, he was faster than everyone one lap down, as well as a few of the lead lap cars, but once the cautions flew, all that progress was for nothing as he would be sent to the back of the field. Perhaps one option would be to only send lap cars to the back within the last 20 laps of the race. I mean, the 9 managed to drive from the back of the pack to up within the lead lap cars on each restart, but then have all that progress wiped out at each caution. However, the downside to that is the chance of slow lapped cars getting in the way and I don't really like that either. 168. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean (#159), the reasons I listed Andretti, Parsons, and Ward Burton on that list of starnge and surprise Daytona 500 winners, and not A.J. Foyt have to do with the following: Andretti's win in 1967 was a huge upset considering that Andretti was not considered to have much of a chance, and was even slighted by his own team. Parsons was an even bigger underdog, and won because of the failings of others, and that was the first time he had ever won on a track bigger than a half-mile. I consider Ward Burton an oddball winner because of the situation. A mid-tier team without a teammate in the field (Burton's teammate Hut Stricklin had failed to qualify), a mid-pack starting position, and Burton had not shown much all week. And remember that Burton never got the lead until that strange set of circumstances near the end, which included just barely avoiding that huge 18-car crash at about the three-quarter mark. And that entire top of the order was strange (Elliott Sadler was second for the Wood Brothers and Geoff Bodine was third for Phoenix Racing). So given the circumstances, I think it's accurate to list Andretti, Parsons, and Burton among the oddball winners of the Daytona 500. And as for not listing Foyt. He had already won five times, including twice in the 400-mile race in July at Daytona, and was driving the Wood Brothers car in 1972, so it would have been an upset if he had not won the race. 169. 10andJoe posted: 05.14.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Ward Burton actually is underrated as a cup driver. His problem was being loyal to Bill Davis. The way it is Ward won at Darlington 2 times, and Rockingham once as wins that are not considered flukes. Exactly. As I've mentioned, before, Ward had lots of offers from other teams - including, as I recall, even RCR - to join up, and he turned them all down to stick with BDR. Admirable loyalty but it torpedoed his career after Davis kept shooting his team in the foot (the Dodge/Toyota debacle just being the final straw). Unfortunatly Trevor Bayne looks to be on his way to Ward-Burtoning his career now... But yeah, Ward is a driver who had an anchor tied to his career by his team - winning at Darlington and Rockingham takes talent, and the Daytona 500 win is nothing to sneeze at. One has to wonder what he might have done elsewhere... 170. Red posted: 05.14.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One last comment about crown jewels. To me, those events were much more important in the 60's and 70's than they are today. In the old days, the big races were considered more prestigious than the championship, plus they paid far more prize money than the regular events. Many teams cherry-picked the biggest races, and brought their best cars to those events. As a result, crown jewel races back then had deeper, more competitve fields than normal races, so they really were the hardest races to win. In addition, the cars didn't have the safety features and driver comfort accessories like they do now, so the high speeds at Daytona and Dega were a true test of courage, and the Southern 500 and World 600 were true tests of endurance. But in modern times with cool boxes and super safe cars, high speeds ang lond distances don't mean much anymore. Also, as the years have passed, the emphasis has shifted from away from individual races and toward the championship instead. If drivers had to choose between, say, winning a Brickyard or making the Chase, I bet most drivers would take the Chase appearance. For better or for worse, it's all about collecting points in modern NASCAR, regardless of which tracks those points come from. Moreover, I don't think crown jewels represent a driver's ability to perform under pressure any differently than the other races. With the millions of dollars in sponsorship money being spent nowadays, there is immense pressure at ALL the races. The competition is so tight, and the stakes so high, drivers and teams are desperate to win at any track. There are no low prestige races anymore, as any win in the Cup Series is precious. And cjs, I agree that crown jewels largely define a driver's legacy in the eyes of the viewing public. But I don't give a damn what the general public remembers; I care about who was REALLY the best over the course of their career, even if that career wasn't flashy or extremely memorable. 171. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.14.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What people don't realize about Mario Andretti is that he grow up on racing bullrings and short tracks, not racing OW cars. 172. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right, 95 Subaru, Mario and his twin brother Aldo (John's father) came up racing old jalopies on dirt bullrings before Mario made it big. And actually, even though Mario Andretti had won two USAC championshoips in 1965-'66, his win in the Daytona 500 was what made him a household name, as it was his first big victory. Three weeks later, he won the first of three 12 Hours of Sebring, and of course, won the Indianapolis 500 in 1969 and eventually the World Championship in 1978. But the 1967 Daytona was the race that put Andretti on the map. And my placing Ward Burton on the surprise winners list had to do with how the Daytona 500 he won played out for him. Now, had he won it the year before, his name might not be on that list, because he actually led the most laps in the 2001 Daytona 500, but he inherited the 2002 Daytona 500. And 10andJoe, your analogy about Trevor Bayne may be right on, because he might be on his way to being out of the sport unless someone finds a place for him. (More top ten runs for the Wood Brothers certainly wouldn't hurt, especially considering how many other good drivers are struggling for what should be front-line teams.) 173. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.14.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you Sean. I agree. To say it takes more "grace under pressure" to win a major race as opposed to others is erroneous. 174. cjs3872 posted: 05.14.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I disagree and I'll tell you why. Jack Nicklaus used to say that he could eliminate 80% of the field in a major championship before it even started due to various factors. Dislike of the course, not liking the conditions, and yes, how you did under pressure. While the 80% number is a bit high when it comes to NASCAR's biggest events, I do think that you can eliminate a good number of the better drivers and teams before the event even starts for similar reasons, not liking the conditions under which you're racing, not liking the track, and how you do under pressure, because the drivers that have won the biggest events in the sport on numerous occasions have proven to be the coolest under fire. For instance, at Darlington, you can eliminate a good number of drivers before the race even begins just because they don't like the track, and another few because they're uncomfortable running close to the wall. At the restrictor plate races, Dale Earnhardt had one, unassailable advantage. Most of the other drivers did not like racing close at the high speeds, while Earnhardt lived for it, so he could eliminate many of his top challengers before the event started. And many of those he couldn't eliminate that way he knew he had in his pocket because he was cool under fire and the others were not. The big events will test the mettle of the athlete more than the other events. History tells us that. The drivers that win the big events, as well as championships, don't back down under pressure and even thrive under it, while those that come close, but can't quite get over the hump, fail to do so mainly because they can't thrive under pressure. Last year's Chase was a letter perfect example of this in action. That's what separates the great champions from the very good ones in any sport. The great ones thrive under pressure, the very good ones are average under pressure, while the merely good ones usually buckle under the pressure. Why do the same drivers win championships all the time, and why did just a small few win all the important races, often multiple times, until just recently. It's because those small few can handle the pressure, while the others could not. The difference is hair thin, but once you see it, you can recognize it, and you can recognize who can handle the pressure of the big moment, often by the little mistakes that some drivers make that others don't. The greatest evidence of this was last year's Daytona 500. A driver not ready for the occasion made a colossal blunder, while another drove a perfect race to earn his place in history. Of course, most times, it is not that obvious, but you can see the difference between good and great when you look for it. 175. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.14.2012 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The same can be saiid for every track. How many drivers hate racing at Martinsville? I think a big reason Kenseth has never won there, despite deceptively good runs there, is because he openly hates it so much. I'll post more in detail about this when my phone decides to quit having a stroke. 176. cjs3872 posted: 05.15.2012 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And on road courses, DSFF. A lot of the drivers of today are beaten at certain tracks before they ever get there for the reasons you and I mentioned. But that's not the only reason why certain athletes are beaten in certain events before they ever start, but it's a big reason why. Instead of looking at it as a challenge, they just want to get the race over with as soon as possible as get to the next one. That's another reason why drivers like Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, and Jeff Gordon, despite his horrid season this year, are still the guys at the top of the totem pole today when it comes to the sport's elite drivers. Because tracks and events that others in their position dread, they look forward to, and realize they have the advantage that I mentioned that Earnhardt and Jack Nicklaus enjoyed. Johnson, Stewart, and Gordon, when he was still capable of winning championships, relished the challenge, and knew that in certain races that they didn't really have to deal with some of the other top drivers because the top drivers had beaten themselves before the event ever started. It's for that reason that Nicklaus always thought that the major champoionships were, for him, the easiest to win, because the field of true cotenders was smaller than in any other tournaments he played in. The same applies to NASCAR. Guys like Johnson and Stewart realize that, even though from an equipment and team point of view, the field is closer, between the ears, they have a big advantage over most of the field, which is why they've won the last seven championships, and even Stewart has one major weakness as a driver that Johnson takes advantage of when battling Stewart, and it really comes home to roost at Darlington, and that's that he does not like being running close to the wall. I believe that's why he's never won a Cup race there, and I doubt he ever will. Darlington's the one track on the circuit that Stewart doesn't really like because you have to run next to the wall. 177. 10andJoe posted: 05.15.2012 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) - First Cup race made since 1994 for a Jimmy Means-owned car (attempted some in early 1995). - First Cup race made for Go Green Racing. - Best career finish for Danica Patrick (...not that it was hard to do...) 178. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.15.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zJ77M7R7sA&feature=youtu.be Here is the footage I took of the pit road scuffle and Jimmie Johnson driving to victory lane and celebrating. 179. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.15.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just noticed something (that is probably fairly irrelevant, but worth mentioning anyway) - should this race have been a GWC? My understanding of the GWC rule, is that if the race is running under caution at the conclusion of the scheduled distance, they can then extend the race. But the thing is, the race wasn't under caution at the scheduled distance; lap 367 was green. Not saying they did the right or wrong thing, just an observation is all. 180. 18fan posted: 05.15.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes the scheduled distance was reached under green, but NASCAR does not throw the green and white flags simultaneously(which is what they would've needed to do to have the race go 367 laps) because of problems that those 1 lap runs have caused, including the major accident in the last turn of the 1997 Pepsi 400. 181. myothercarisanM535i posted: 05.15.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought that was the case, but it's still a strange feeling when the commentators are explaining something one way when what's actually happening is clearly different to what they're saying. Again, not saying they should have done anything differently, but changing the wording of the explanation would be a good thing I think. Not too big a deal though, I just thought it was a bit interesting. Also on that, is the NASCAR rule book available to read online somewhere? I reckon it would be good thing to have access to as a fan. 182. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.15.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also on that, is the NASCAR rule book available to read online somewhere? I reckon it would be good thing to have access to as a fan." There is a guy on the SPEED boards who was once a spotter for a driver, he said that if you get a NASCAR license, they give you a rule book. Want one, get a NASCAR license. 183. cjs3872 posted: 05.16.2012 - 6:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know why nobody else has brought it up (myself included) until now, but I think it's about time I weighed in on SPEED's second fantast starting linueup. This time, it's their "All-Star Race Galaxy Grid" of the 20 best Al-Star Race drivers.But again, the one major flaw is that every winner automatically qualifies for the list, though there is one non-winner on the list. Here's the list as it is revealed so far: 11. Geoff Bodine (1994 winner) 12. Darrell Waltrip (1985 inaugural winner) 13. Ryan Newman (2002 winner, one of just two rookies to win the event, not including the inaugural) 14. Ken Schrader (3-time consecutive runner-up from 1989-'91,. the only non-winner on the list) 15. Rusty Wallace (1989 winner) 16. Kurt Busch (2010 winner) 17. Carl Edwards (2011 winner) 18. Kevin Harvick (2007 winner) 19. Michael Waltrip (1996 winner, for the Wood Brothers, no less) 20. Kasey Kahne (2008 winner) By the way, if Dale Earnhardt, Sr. and Jeff Gordon, the only two three-time winners, aren't 1-2 in either order, there should be an investigation. But then again, given how much SPEED's panel butchered the Great American Grid (except for the top two, which even they couldn't get wrong), someone like Davey Allison or Terry Labonte (who are also among the five best All-Star drivers in my view) might be in the first two. 184. Daniel posted: 05.16.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -Timmy Hill late entry to the showdown in the #37 185. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 05.16.2012 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently I was wrong when I said the crew member had no reason to confront Kurt, I just watched this video and Kurt hit Newman's car (and almost hit a crew member of the 39) on pit road, further making work for the pit crews of both cars. No matter what transpired before, to do that is pretty immature and showing no concern for those on pit road. In retrospect, that crew member had every right to be mad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNRxKq5KiCY 186. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.16.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finally found Kurt's radio from Darlington (satisfying my morbid fascination with watching grown men throw temper tantrums). This is his angriest rant yet. Hopefully there is an uncensored version out there somewhere. But then again, I still haven't found an uncensored version of his Richmond rant last year. Unfortunately it is part of some SPEED show during the Jimmy Spencer segment (yes, somebody gave Jimmy Spencer a segment on a TV show, he is surprisingly even worse on TV than he was behind the wheel, I don't even know what show this is). The only good thing about that is there is a comment saying "Spencer's rug is more offensive than Kurt's language". And it is true. Oh well, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_8LsVfFxc 187. Talon64 posted: 05.16.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson picks up his 56th career Sprint Cup Series victory, moving him past Rusty Wallace into sole possession of 8th on the all time list. It'll be a while before he moves up another spot, because next in 7th is Dale Earnhardt at 76. It could take him as few as 4 seasons (5.4 wins/36 races in his career) to get there. Johnson now has the 2nd longest active streak for consecutive winning seasons at 11, only behind Tony Stewart who's at 14. Excluding his crappy luck at the plate races this season (42nd at Daytona due to a wreck and 35th at Talladega due to an engine failure), Jimmie Johnson has a 5.4 average finish with 4 top 3 finishes and 497 laps led in 9 races. It's Johnson's 3rd win at Darlington, his first since sweeping both races in 2004. He led a Darlington career high 134 laps, topping the 124 in his November 2004 win. It's just his 2nd top 10 in the last 5 races there, but they're both top 2 finishes. It's also his 7th top 5 in 14 starts there (9.1 avg fin), and it becomes the 12th track that he has at least 10 top 10's at. It's Rick Hendrick's 200th career Sprint Cup Series win as an owner. 14 of those have come at Darlington, his 3rd most at any track behind Charlotte with 16 (All Star next weekend, Coke 600 the one after) and Martinsville with 18. HMS has 9 tracks where they have at least 10 wins, including Dover, Pocono, Talladega, Atlanta, Richmond and Daytona. The only two tracks HMS has never won at are Kentucky (ran 1st race in 2011) and Homestead (51 starts, 11 top 5's with a best finish of 2nd three times). Denny Hamlin makes it a 1-2 finish for HMS and the #11, the two things that had 199 career Cup wins going into the race. Hamlin ties his top 5's from all of 2011 with his 5th in 11 races in 2012, including 3 in the last 4 races. It's Hamlin's 3rd top 2 finish in 7 career Darlington starts (6 top 10's, and a track record 5.9 average finish). Tony Stewart ties his best career finish at Darlington in 3rd, both of them coming in the last 4 races there. It's just his 4th top 5 in 20 starts there (11 top 10's, 11.8 avg fin), and he failed to lead a lap in the race so his career total at Darlington is just 20, his 2nd fewest at any track (17 in 11 Rockingham starts). Stewart only had 3 top 5's in the first 26 races of 2011, but already has 4 top 3 finishes through 11 races in 2012. Since starting the season with just 1 top 5 and 2 top 10's in the first 7 races, Kyle Busch has 4 consecutive top 10's, including 3 straight top 4 finishes, to go from 14th to 9th in the standings. It's just Kyle's 2nd top 5 in 8 Darlington starts, his other being his 2008 victory. He's alternated finishes out of and inside the top 10 in his 8 starts (15.5 avg fin), but has led laps in 6 of them (323 total). Martin Truex Jr.'s 4th top 5 of the season equals his total from his first 2 seasons at Michael Waltrip Racing combined (4 in 72 races from 2010-11). His 303 laps led this season is also more than the previous 2 years combined (241) and already his 2nd most in a season behind 581 in 2007. It's Truex Jr.'s first top 5 in 7 Darlington starts, but he's never finished worse than 19th (3 top 10's, 11.3 avg fin). Matt Kenseth gets his first stand-alone top 10 finish of the season in 6th, his 5th top 10 in the last 6 races and 6th in 8. It's his 5th top 10 in his last 7 Darlington starts (8 in 19 career starts, 17.5 avg fin) but his only Darlington top 5 was a 3rd place finish in 2006. Carl Edwards started 7th, finished 7th, and picked up his 7th top 10 of 2012 which ranks him in a tie for 3rd with 3 other drivers; Carl's 10th in points while the others are 1st (Biffle), 2nd (Kenseth) and 6th (Truex Jr.). He still has yet to finish better than 5th in 2012, after having 5 top 3 finishes at this point in 2011. It's Carl's 6th top 10 in 9 Darlington starts (13.1 avg fin). Kasey Kahne extends his top 10 streak to a career-high 5 straight races. He's the 2nd HMS driver in 2012 to tie or set a new career high in consecutive top 10's, joining Dale Earnhardt Jr. who tied his high with 6 in a row. Kahne's gone from 31st to 16th in points over that span. It's his 4th top 10 in 10 Darlington starts (3 top 5's, 13.9 avg fin). Marcos Ambrose picks up his first top 10 of 2012 in 9th. Yet he's 18th in the standings, with the 18th best driver rating. Joey Logano's 19th in driver rating and Paul Menard's 20th, yet they're 15th and 13th in points respectively. Just strange. It's Ambrose's 1st top 10 in 4 Darlington starts (20.0 avg fin). After starting the season with back-to-back top 10's, Joey Logano went 8 races without one before finishing 10th at Darlington. Logano finished 9th in his 1st Darlington start, but had finishes of 27th and 35th in his next two starts before this past weekend (20.2 avg fin in 4 starts). Greg Biffle picked up his 11th career Sprint Cup Series pole and 2nd of 2011. Biffle had 6 poles in his first 316 career Cup starts, but has 5 in his last 25. 188. cjs3872 posted: 05.16.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is the fifth row of the "All-Star Race Galaxy Grid": 9. Matt Kenseth (2004 winner) 10. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (2000 winner, first rookie to win the event, other than the 1985 inaugural) They join those I mentioned in post #183 in SPEED's fantasy All-Star grid. Tomorrow, SPEED reveals positions seven and eight on the grid. 189. Kyle posted: 05.17.2012 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) here's a video i found of some of kurt's antics through the years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfaZR3ysMIA&feature=related spencer was right, kurt needs some time off. say what you will about jimmy spencer, but he tells it like it is. if you don't agree with him, it's because you're the one that's wrong. grow up and deal with it. with all the drivers that james finch has fired halfway or less through a season, mike bliss, james buescher, johnny benson, jason keller, p.j. jones, etc., he has NO excuse for still having kurt in his car. the ONLY reason he brought kurt on was to attract sponsorship and end the team's curse of having a good run go south in the closing stages of a race. kurt's failed on both accounts, send him off to anger manangement for a few years, then maybe he'll be qualified to drive a bicycle or golf cart. 190. 10andJoe posted: 05.17.2012 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's now confirmed: the 2013 Chevrolet in NASCAR will be the SS, aka the Holden Commodore. 191. 10andJoe posted: 05.17.2012 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...also, Stephen Leicht is running for Rookie of the Year. 192. 10andJoe posted: 05.17.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And, according to Lee Spencer, Andretti Autosport might be moving to NASCAR, partnering with Dodge. 193. Talon64 posted: 05.17.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I posted this on Joe Nemechek's comments, but I'll post it here too for you guys: Just in time for the All Star race, a Joe Nemechek All Star fact. Nemechek's translated 4 career Cup wins into 5 All Star appearances: 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 & 2005. 5 in a 6 year stretch, not too shabby. But only in 2 of those races did he race with the team he won with. And up until 2007, winning owners by themselves were eligible for the All Star race. So there were 3 times that Nemechek won a race with a team who ended up in next year's All Star race with a different driver. His first career Cup win came in 1999 in the #42 Felix Sabates car at Loudon. He moved to the #33 Andy Petree team for 2000, and his replacement in the #42 was Kenny Irwin Jr. who made his only All Star appearance. Then unfortunately lost his life later that year. Nemechek's next win was in 2001, still in the #33. He parted ways with them after the season, and the #33 ended up shutting down halfway through 2002. By then he was driving the #25 Hendrick Motorsports car. But the #33 still ran the All Star race that year with Mike Wallace behind the wheel, who made his only All Star appearance. 2003 was the first time that Nemechek drove in the All Star race with the team he won with. It was hard not to, because he won at Richmond in the #25 the weekend before the race. It also made him eligible for the 2004 race, but he was replaced at the end of 2003 by Busch champ Brian Vickers who ran the '04 All Star race in the #25. Nemechek moved to the #01 MB2 car. Vickers made it 3 different drivers who benefited from a Joe Nemechek win to make their first All Star appearance, but only Vickers made more All Star races since (2005 with his wreck-Bliss-to-win move in the Open and 2007 with his wreck-Jimmie-and-Jr.-to-win move at Talladega). Nemechek won later that year at Kansas, and the 2005 race was just the 2nd time in 5 appearances that he drove with the team he won with. 194. Eric posted: 05.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not shocked that Andretti Autosport would look at Ryan Newman and Kurt Busch as possibilities if they actually go to NASCAR based on my reading the Lee Spencer article. I don't see Andretti have Ryan Newman and Kurt Busch at teammates though after what happened at Darlington if Andretti does go to NASCAR. The other thing is I don't a sponsor would want Kurt Busch as this time even it means a start up cup team gets guaranteed a sport for the first 5 races for 2013. I know Ryan Newman is a free agent, but what I read on Espn chat that it sounds like Tony Stewart wants Ryan back. The question there is if Ryan actually wants go back to racing the 39 car. 195. cjs3872 posted: 05.17.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, we have our "All-Star Galaxy Grid" controversy, as spots five through eight have just been released, and I don't agree with the listings. Anyways, here are drivers 5-8: 5. Tony Stewart (2009 winner) 6. Bill Elliott (1986 winner, won the only year the event was held somewhere oher than Charlotte) 7. Terry Labonte (2-time winner, 1988, '99) 8. Mark Martin (2-time winner, 1998, 2005) Now for the controversy. How on God's Green Earth can you put Tony Stewart and Bill Elliott ahead of Terry Labonte in the annals of the history of the All-Star Race? Stewart won in his 11th start, in 2009, while Elliott never won the race at Charlotte (his only win came in Atlanta in 1986). On the other hand, Labonte won the race twice and figured in many other All-Star Races, including finishing third in the 1985 inaugural, being involved in the famous "Pass in the Grass" race in 1987 (he wasn't involved in the incident itself), finishing second to Dale Earnhardt, and looking like he might steal that win, a fact virtually forgotten by time, and he was seriously in the hunt in 1996 and 1997. In fact, had he cleared Earnhardt on the second restart in 1996, which he almost did, Labonte would actually be in the discussion in terms of the greatest driver in the history of the event, as he would also have been a three-time winner, along with Earnhardt, Sr. and Jeff Gordon. It took a while, but SPEED found a way to insult the knowledge of those that actually know about the history of the event. Putting Terry seventh on this list behind both Tony Stewart and Bill Elliott is an absolute disgrace. 196. cjs3872 posted: 05.17.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, the rumor that Andretti Autosport may be joining the NASCAR ranks next year and going with Dodge may also be the first indication of what Richard Petty Motorsports might do next year. Remember that Andretti Autosport has had a relationship with Richard Petty Motorsports as a result of John Andretti's efforts at Indy in recent years. It could be that John might be coming back with Andretti Autosport's NASCAR effort to get the program rolling, with an alliance from Richard Petty Motorsports. Or possibly that Marco Andretti may have some passing interest in NASCAR, though I find that hard to believe at this stage. So if Andretti Autosport is going to NASCAR next year and run Dodges, look for Richard Petty Motorsports to follow. After all, the names Petty and Andretti go back together as far back as the early 1970s when Andy Granatelli's STP corporation sponsored both Richard Petty and Mario Andretti, as well as when Andretti was sposored by STP in 1981 and '82. And even Michael had STP as an associate sponsor in the mid-80s. And of course, John scored the #43 car's final win to date at Martinsville in 1999. So if Michael Andretti is going to own a NASCAR team next year and go with Dodge, look for an alliance with Richard Petty Motorsports, since the tie-ins are already there. 197. 18fan posted: 05.17.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure if anybody here cares, but the #48 team won the pit crew challenge tonight, beating the 2-time defending champion #11 team in the finals. This means the #48 team gets first choice in pit selection for the All-Star race Saturday night. 198. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) We'll see if that really matters, 18fan, because there are often wrecks in the early segments in the All-Star Race, and sometimes one big wreck, so we'll see if Johnson is even left by the start of the final segment, because that's the only time where pit selection really counts in he All-Star Race. And remember that there were no accidents in last year's race, so they're due this year. 199. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can't believe I forgot to come here yesterday and relive the 25th anniversary of one of NASCAR's coolest moments ever. So here it is a day late: Keith Jackson: And Earnhardt loses it, goes on to the grass and Elliott..... (pause while Keith realizes what he was about to say about Elliott reclaiming the lead of the race he dominated wasn't gonna happen) AND EARNHARDT'S STILL GOT THE LEAD, INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!! 200. Spen posted: 05.18.2012 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: They may be due, but it won't happen. It'll be the normal follow the leader parade. 201. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, and the thing about that whole "Pass in the Grass" episode is that Earnhardt nearly lost the lead (and quite possibly the race) to Terry Labonte on the next lap. A lot of people have forgoten that Labonte actually finished second in that race, yet I don't think he has ever been interviewed about that race, and he was a major player in that last segment throughout. Yet had Labonte gotten by Earnhardt, Earnhardt would probably never gotten back by, and Labonte would be a three-time winner of the All-Star Race, and not Earnhardt. That a major resason why it's an absolute travesty that SPEED only has Labonte ranked seventh on it's "All-Star Galaxy Grid", because both Tony Stewart and Bill Elliott have no busines being ahead of him, and it can be argued that Labonte should be as high as third on that list of greatest drivers in All-Star Race history, behind only the two three-time winners, due to his overall record. And certainly, taking nothing away from the great All-Star moments that have occurred since then with different announcers, but having the legendary Keith Jackson (who had Donnie Allison in the booth with him that day) calling Earnhardt's legendary move, certainly added something to the occasion. That also marked the first time the All-Star Race was on live network television, as the previous two runnings were on cable networks (I'm not sure which one did the first, but ESPN did the second). It would be great to see this event back on network television, where it belongs, but hasn't been since 1991. 202. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seems like there was a race once where Terry took the lead from Dale on the white flag lap. So although I agree Terry has been lost historically in that race, in the All Star Race, and really in NASCAR history period, I don't see Terry winning that race. Remember, the true "Intimidator", the guy who would truly do whatever it took to win on any given week and truly cared less about his competitors drove the bright blue and yellow car, and only made the occasional appearance in the black car. 203. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The question I had would have been, had Terry passed Earnhardt while Earnhardt was preoccupied with Bill Elliott (during which time, Labonte passed Tim Richmond), would Earnhardt had even been able to catch Labonte, and I'm not sure he would have (he never really got that far ahead of Terry), plus he may have had to battle with Tim Richmond, who was also in the hunt during that entire final segment. But the reason I mention Labonte in all that was that he actually got all the way beside Earnhardt in the third and fourth turns, and had he cleared Earnhardt, would Earnhardt had been able to catch him to make a move on him? I'm not so sure. And remember that what set up Michael Waltrip's win in 1996 was that Earnhardt got loose under Terry in turn one, but had Terry been able to get in front of him then, he probably would have won that race, as well. 204. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Terry has quite simply been lost in NASCAR's history and it is a shame. Instead of remembering "The Iceman" fondly, people would rather remember Darrell and how he never would shut his "Jaws". Instead of praising him for winning the 1984 Winston Cup with a fairly new team (their 6th season) that didn't do crap without him, people gripe about him being yet another champion with just 1 or 2 wins and dwell on how ugly that championship battle was. He is almost a footnote in that title, it is looked at more as Dale Imnan's, winning his 8th and showing he could do it without Richard (which in all fairness Dale deserves, but Terry wasn't just an innnocent bystander). Instead of praising him for outdeuling Gordon down the stretch to win the 1996 Winston Cup, all we get is grumbling about a 2 time winner beating a guy that won 10 times, not mentioning he prevented Jeff from winning 4 in a row. We constantly hear about Smoke's emotional home state win in Indy in 2005, but Texas Terry's 1999 win at (wait for it....) Texas? All but forgotten. I don't know why he has been buried historically. We never see any highlights of either of his wins in The Winston. Hell, the only highlight we ever see of him is getting spun by Dale at Bristol in '99. I guess he was stoic to a fault. Maybe it was all the long winless streaks or lack of a "moment". Either way it is a shame. I haven't kept up with this All Star grid thing, but it looks like yet another historical injustice for The Iceman. 205. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the thing about Labonte is that he always liked to slip in the back door. His first win in the 1980 Southern 500 was a perfect reflection on his entire career, in retrospect. He was sitting in fourth place in the next-to-last lap when the three leaders all ran into oil and Labonte slipped by Earnhardt and Benny Parsons, then slipped just enough ahead of David Pearson to win that race. But for Labonte, it was usually close, but no cigar in the big races. He finished second three times in the Daytona 500 and had numerous other close calls, but never won there, finishing second a total of five times, including three times in a row in 1996-'97, but never won at Daytona. Labonte was only a factor at Indy once, when he finished third there in 1996, and his only points-paying win at Charlotte came in what was perhaps the biggest race of his career, when you consider what was at stake, and that was the fall race at Charlotte in 1996. But Labonte was a driver that almost never made mistakes when he got in position to win. In the 1989 July race at Talladega, he had Darrell Waltrip staring him down and he never flinched. In the race in which he tied Richard Petty's record for conscutive starts at North Wilkesboro, he had Jeff Gordon on his rear bumper, and again, never made a mistake. You may beat Terry Labonte, but he would never beat himself, and that was never truer than in the All-Star Race. He finished third in the first one in 1985, was second in 1987, and won the 1988 race. Then when he got to Hendrick Motorsports, he again factored in the All-Star Race, finishing fifth in 1996, when he was an Earnhardt wiggle away from quite possibly winning it, was third in 1997, and won again in 1999. That makes six top five finishes and five finishes in the All-Star Race of third or better with two wins. And SPEED only ranked him seventh? Like I said, a travesty of justice. Labonte never went out to lead every lap and overextend the car, because he knew that only one lap counted, the last one. And in a race as volatile as the All-Star Race, his five top three finishes are about as many as anyone in the history of the event. 206. Jarrett88fan posted: 05.18.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is a damn shame Terry has become Nascar's forgotten man to many of the younger, "hipster", SPEED Tweet Zone, fair-weather fans. Terry should be third or fourth on the basis of record alone. 207. Eric posted: 05.18.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, I agree that Terry Labonte is lost in NASCAR history. He is the original Matt Kenseth in terms of being lost in NASCAR history and being unappreciated in the same manner. I said Matt Kenseth for a reason. Matt Kenseth was not given credit for 2009 Daytona 500 win because it was rain shorten. His 2012 Daytona 500 win is overlooked by Montoya hitting the jet dryer. Matt's 2000 Coco-cola 600 win usually isn't talked about anymore like Terry Labonte's 2003 Southern 500 win. Matt's 2003 championship isn't looked upon kindly either like Terry's 1996 cup championship was. People to this day blame's Matt winning the championship for the chase being created. The other with Matt is the fact he's overshadowed by Dale Jr despite Matt having the better cup career because of all the attention Dale gets. I said that because Dale and Matt were in the Busch series together and they were rookies in cup in 2000. Matt came into cup with little fanfare compare to Dale Jr. along with Dale's 2 Busch series titles. Dale was thought of being the better of the 2 drivers before they started their 1st season in cup. 208. NicoRosbergFan posted: 05.18.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Terry had his moment, the 2003 Southern 500. What a better way to win your final race than by winning the final running of the oldest crown jewel on its traditional weekend before Frances Ferko's prostitution of justice and stripping Darlington of its racedate. He contended, and when he took the lead in the pits, made them all pay dearly as he drove off into the sunset to take his final win in what was emotional year that saw Bobby and Terry Labonte and Bill Elliott and Michael Waltrip all take their final wins and finish in the top-10 in points, with Labonte winning the final Winston Cup race. That was Terry's moment. As cjs said, he never flinched with fear and always got the best with what little he had. Even as a Gordon fan, I endorse Terry's 96 title. In fact I will say Jeff didn't deserve to be that high points considering his inconsistency. But Terry Labonte made the unfortunate choice to love his job and be remembered as a start-and-park just so he could keep driving. Remember also that even when he ran part-time in 05 and 06, Terry actually genuinely took the lead in the Coke 600 (a race that even Kvapil, Schrader, and Elliott genuinely lead) before his pinhead teammate Vickers deliberately spun Elliott and took all of his teammates minus Jimmie, Elliott, and Mark Martin down with him. Terry knows how to show when you least expect him. 209. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, you bring up the 2003 Southern 500, the last run on Labor Day Weekend as Terry Labonte's moment, which I partially disagree with. I believe his greatest moment as far as a single race win goes is that 1996 fall race at Charlotte, because he entered that race 111 points behind Jeff Gordon and left it just one point behind. That was his big moment, and he dominated that race, which was very atypical of Labonte. But that 2003 Southern 500 win is one of the most popular in recent memory because of the stage, who won the race, and all the other circumstances involved. In fact, after the race, Bill Elliott, one of Labonte's contemporaries said that if he couldn't win that race, that he was pulling for Labonte to win it, because of the fact that Labonte, like Elliott, understood the tradition of running that race on Labor Day weekend more than just about anyone in the field. In fact, Elliott and Labonte finished second and third in the Southern 500--in 1979. The thing about Labonte, and this goes back to the crown jewel races vs. drivers tracks debate, is that Labonte's best tracks and where he got most of his wins, were the driver's tracks. Places like Darlington, North Wilkesboro, Bristol, Riverside, Rockingham, Richmond, and even Pocono, with it's odd shape, were all tracks where Labonte won more than once in his career. I would consider every one of those tracks a driver's track. And before you rant on about Pocono being a horsepower track, when Terry won those races, Pocono was a track where you had to give up one part of the track to run better on another, so the driver came into play at Pocono more then that it perhaps does now. And let's not forget what may have been Labonte's greatest performance, and that was finishing third at Phoenix with effectively one arm after crashing at Phoenix as a result of a stuck throttle, and wrapping up the 1996 title with a fifth-place at Atlanta the following week, which proves that Labonte was just as tough as fellow Texas racers A.J. Foyt, Johnny Rutherford, and Lloyd Ruby. But unlike his fellow Texans, Labonte rarely showed any real emotions, but when the chips were down, there weren't more than five drivers among his contemporaries that were better. And had he won more big races, Labonte may have been remembered as the champion he is, instead as a mere afterthought in the sport's history, which is why I say that crown jewel race wins are important to a driver's resume, and the Terry Labonte case is Exhibit A of this. Had he won one of those Daytona 500s in which he finished second (and there were three), or won a Coca-Cola 600, or Brickyard 400, coupled with his two championships, the two All-Star Race wins, and the two Southern 500 wins that bookended his career, Labonte would be remembered by most as one of the best, which in fact, he was among his generation. 210. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those watching the Truck Series race, they just had one of those situations where there was a caution during a series of pit stops where a number of the leaders had pitted with tire or fuel problems, then the caution flag came out. When those trucks that had not previously stopped made their stops under caution, those that had stopped under green stayed out and took the wave around. That's the situation that the wave around is for. I am critical of those that abuse the wave around, but thae situation with the caution falling in the middle of pit stops is what that rule is for. Otherwise, the leaders would have been stuck in traffic on the restart, which would have left them open to being involved in a crash caused by those in front of them trying to make up time. 211. JG24FanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truck races are kinda lame 212. JG24FanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All the talk about Terry has got me nostalgic, I remember Terry winning the fall Charlotte race in 96' and dropping Gordon's point lead from 111 to just 1 and simply out drove Gordon for the final three races even though Gordon beat Terry at Atlanta with a 3rd to Terry's 5th. Terry was my favorite along with Dale(Earnhardt)back then and one of his greatest wins was the 1999 The Winston when he out drove Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon in the special paint scheme K sentials car. as for 1996, Terry had 2 fewer DNF's than Gordon and if you figure in the points Gordon lost to Terry at Daytona and The Brickyard, 64 at Daytona(after being turned in the wall early) and 118 at Indy(cut tire)and Gordon only lost the title by 37 points,you can see why people feel Gordon was completely ripped off by the infamous Latford system. BTW Terry's Honey Crunch car from the fall Charlotte win is one of my all-time favorite and one of his most memorable race cars. 213. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who is this Newberry guy? I'm gonna have visions of that 14 truck spinning out in my sleep.he has almost spun out as many times as Earnhardt did at the 1990 Bud At The Glen. Oh well, maybe Brad will win so he can have a win in all 3 divisions, joining such luminaries as Michael Waltrip, Elliott Sadler, and Jimmy Spencer. 214. JG24FanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why in the hell are we all watching a Truck race? i'm having more fun watching replays of Jimmie Johnson's burnout from the fall Richmond race in 2007 on youtube or The STP Richard Petty commercial is better than this race. Go Bad Brad! 215. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope everyone complaining about lack of cautions in Cup is watching this Truck race. 216. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, I don't see how you say that Terry Labonte outdrove Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon to win the 1999 All-Star Race. Labonte simply had fresher tires, especially on the left side, and that's how he got by Stewart and won the race. Knowing how to win at NASCAR's highest level didn't hurt, either. That was Terry's last win prior to the 2003 Southern 500. And what you say about a lot of people thinknig that Jeff Gordon got robbed of the title in 1996 due to the Latford system. Labonte might have won the title easier if they used the system used today, because it doesn't pay to go for a position late in the race, because it's only worth one point, the same as it would be from 43rd to 42nd, unless it's for the win. And a lot of people say that drivers need extra incentive to go for the win. I say boulderdash. Every driver will tell you that their primary objective is to win. But there is no incentive, as far as points go, to get in position to go for the win if you're say, running in fifth position, it doesn't pay to try to move up to third or fourth, because it's just not worth it in terms of points. At least the Latford system weighted finishing in the top five more than finishing farther back in he field, in terms of points per position gained/lost. Maybe it should have put more weight into the top three finishing position, but that system is superior to what is being used now. 217. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Lofton! What was up with Brad on restarts? I had my headphones on rocking out to some SRV (the house is rockin, don't bother knockin) so I don't know. 218. JG24FanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that the Latford system is superior and I don't want to get into how upside ridiculous the Chase standard is. 219. New 14&88 Fan posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Justin Lofton on his first truck win. Brad K's been really bad at restarts lately, what is up with that? 220. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Poor Brad, he lost the Truck race, he'll just have to settle for trying to win $1 million tomorrow night then next week trying to make it 6 Cup wins in the last 36 races. Poor guy. 221. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Latford systme is just as bad as the Chase System. They deal with points. 222. JG24FanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Poor Brad, he lost the Truck race, he'll just have to settle for trying to win $1 million tomorrow night then next week trying to make it 6 Cup wins in the last 36 races. Poor guy." It's just a sign that's he's Big Time now which means he'll be disgustingly selfish for any win he can get, which is the attitude of almost all champions. 223. 18fan posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No points system can be perfect, but the Latford system is vastly superior to the "simple" system that is currently in place. The Latford system was part of the Chase from 2004-2010 before the Latford system was replaced, so comparing the Latford system to the Chase doesn't really work. 224. cjs3872 posted: 05.18.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was never referring to the Chase system, since the points are awarded exactly the same in the Chase as they are prior to it. I was just referring to the points as they're awarded in a particular race, Chase race or not. The front positions need to be rewarded more. That's why we're seeing nobody dominate right now. It just doesn't pay to take the chances necessary to get into a position to win races like it used to. Nobody dominated last season and nobody's dominating this season, and it's because of the one point-per position breakdown in the points. Earlier this season, Darrell Waltrip even pointed to the points system as a major reason for the lack of action on the track this season, mentioning it in the pre-race show at Richmond. That's the first time since the current points system was introduced that anyone has mentioned that the points system is affecting the quality of racing in an adverse fashion, and it was about time. Now I'm not opposed to the way it deals with the bottom three-quarters of the finishing order, as the points per position breakdown was the same from 11th through the balance of the field in the Latford system, but that system did provide a little more weight to finishing higher up in the race, where as the current points system does not, and that's why the drivers don't realy care about moving up from fourth to third late in a race, because that's the same points difference as moving up from 24th to 23rd would be, and that's just plain wrong. 225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.18.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unfortunately, the sad fact is Terry has been largely forgotten historically. Looks like he will join the list of other champions whose most known moment is one I'm sure they'd rather not be remembered for, like Herb Thomas (being wrecked by Speedy Thompson by orders from his owner which ended his career) and Bobby Isaac (got out of his car at Dega cause a voice told him to, for which I counter by saying if you are driving at Dega and a voice DOESN'T tell you to get out something is wrong). Terry's moment, of course, is the '99 Bristol Night Race. And I agree that he HAS had moments, but they never get brought up like winning the last Labor Day Southern 500, winning at Texas, clinching the championship in a race his brother won, and even the 1995 Bristol Night Race that he won after being punted by Dale. Even that race has somehow historically become Dale's. It is most known for being the race that Dale and Rusty (the closest thing to Petty and Pearson as far as two competitors pushing each other to become legendary) had their post race confrontation. It was a throwback night for Dale as he dumped Rusty on like Lap 3 (and got a water bottle upside his head afterwards, Rusty was the only driver with a zero tolerance policy towards Dale), dumped Lake Speed in the middle, smashed his front grill in running into somebody else, then booting Terry as he crossed the line. That should have been the race he drove the throwback Wrangler colors in, not the 1999 Winston which was won by (wait for it...) Terry Labonte! Imagine that! Here are some of the reasons I think he hasn't endured historically. DISCLAIMER: I am NOT, repeat, NOT saying I agree with them, I just think these are why he has already faded from most fans memories: -Stoic to a fault. He was known as The Iceman, but I'm not sure that was apporpriate. Being an Iceman implies you are cold blooded. Although as steady as they come, I never got that cold blooded vibe from him. That would actually be a better nickname for Earnhardt. Listening to some of his remoreseless interviews after dustups ('86 Richmond, '87 Bristol, '99 Bristol) makes me think of Dale. As a result, Terry never seemed to make any of his moments his own. Win or lose, he looked and sounded exactly the same. I can't help but wonder how he would be remembered if he were more like fellow 1979 Winston Cup rookie Geoff Bodine. Geoff famously feuded with Dale, unsuccessfully, but he made it clear he disliked him. He is remembered for that more than anything. Speaking of the 1979 rookie class, it also included Harry Gant, who was equally stoic, but had his immortal "Life begins at 51" run in 1991, and is remembered more than Terry. The stars simply never lined up for Terry to be remembered. -Having his moments hijacked. Even his greatest moments seemed to have some other story that overshadowed them. I talked about the '95 Bristol Night Race (which I consider a crown jewel). His '84 BNR win is more about Darrell having his 7 race Bristol win streak snapped cause of a part failure. His win in the 1988 Winston was sandwiched between the Pass In The Grass in '87 and The Tide Slide in '89. His 1980 Southern 500 win is more remembered for The Fox, a Young Earnhardt, and champion Benny Parsons crashing in oil all at once (so what if just being on the lead lap at the end of 500 hot grueling miles at Darlington in that era was a huge accomplishment). His 2003 Southern 500 win was more about us fans taking up our new favorite past time, pissing on Brain (not a typo) France for killing such a wonderful tradition. -Being on the wrong side of history. We have discussed the '99 BNR ad nauseum. Dale's first win for RCR at Dega in 1984 was with a last lap slingshot over Terry. At Sears Point in 1992, Ernie Irvan drove, in my opinion, the best road course race ever. After being black flagged on the start, and having just 74 laps on an impossibly narrow road course, he still fought his way back to win. Who did he have to pass in the end? Terry. At Richmond 2000, Dale Jr drove the best race of his career (it's true) winning on a short track with barely a Top 5 car. Who did he have to hold off in the end? Terry. Ron Bouchard won at Dega in 1981 in one of the biggest upsets ever, by beating the current dominator Darrell Waltrip who was having to be totally preoccupied in holding off somebody else. Who was it? Terry. For over two decades you had to contend with him. But that doesn't seem to matter. -His two championships. Of all the points finishes under the Latford system (pre cha$e), both of Terry's seem to be brought up when people air their gripes about it. I know I have. Each time somebody won many more races, but lacked consistency. The "What The Hell?" list includes Darrell in '85, Kenseth in '03 and both of Terry's (BP in '73 and Kulwicki in '92 get a pass due to being with underfunded teams). Plus he won his first title with Dale Inman as his crew chief which was championship #8 for him, and his second was with Hendrick Motorsports who has won 10 and counting. Even Rick's satellite teams win championships (2011). Nobody wants to give Terry credit for being in position or the fact he won the TWELVE YEARS APART! -Curiously low win total. For a multiple time champ with a ton of starts and seasons to barely crack the 20 win barrier makes people look at you cross eyed. Again, Terry never knocked your socks off. Plus he had some long winless streaks. Does he get credit for coming back from being considered dead in the sport on 3 different occasions ('83-'84 following a 3+ year winless streak, '94-'96 after another 3+ year skid with some really bad teams, and 2003 following yet another 3+ year streak of being goosed)? Of course not. -Whoring out his Past Champion's Provisional- Look, hardly any great has a graceful exit from their sport. They almost all hang on too long. Both The King and Darrell went the last 8 years of their careers without winning, often looking like shit out there. Bill Elliott is going through a similar deal, but he has the Winston Million in 1985 which implanted him in our memories. Mark seems to be doing the same. And what about the last decade of AJ Foyt's racing career? Even in other sports, Willie Mays, Johnny Unitas, Michael Jordan, this list could go forever. But for Terry, it is yet another strike against him in the battle for our memories. 226. 10andJoe posted: 05.18.2012 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Who is this Newberry guy? I'm gonna have visions of that 14 truck spinning out in my sleep. Let's put Charlotte Newberry and Martinsville Vickers on the track at Road America and see how many cars are left unwrecked in the parking lot afterwards. ;) 227. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF Terry's biggest moment in his career was tying Richard Petty's 513 consecutive starts mark by winning from the pole over the white hot Jeff Gordon in the final spring North Wilkesboro event and this is almost completely forgotten and Terry also finished 2nd in the 3rd most memorable Daytona 500 finish ever. 228. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BTW Terry drove a special silver "Iron Man" car at Wilkesboro, and that was also the car he crashed in the next to last race of 1996 at Phoenix when he broke his hand, he started from the back and still finished 3rd and people never remember that. 229. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What Daytona 500 was that, JG24FanForever? was it 1990, when Earnhardt cut a tire in turn three on the last lap, or 1997, when Jeff Gordon passed Bill Elliott (who was third in that 1990 finish) on the apron, while Labonte led a group on the high side, resulting in a Hendrick 1-2-3 (Ricky Craven was third in the third HMS car that day), the first in one of the big events? And it's ironic that Labonte's three runner-up finishes in the Daytona 500 all came with either Hendrick Motorsports cars or cars with Hendrick equipment winning. 230. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 1990? or 1997? I like him for both 231. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official. The people at SPEED have no knowledge at all when putting these lists together, or at least they don't use their brains. How else can they possibly have Jeff Gordon FOURTH on the "All-Star Galaxy Grid", behind Jimmie Johnson, who is rated third (which I believe is correct). After all, the last ime I checked, Gordon is a three-time winner of the All-Star Race (once in a back-up car), and should be a four-time winner in all honesty (and there are currently no four-time winners of the All-Star Race), while Jimmie Johnson has only won the event twice to date. SPEED's list of the 20 best All-Star Race drivers just lost all of it's credibility with that moronic decision. I don't know who's on SPEED's panel, but they should all be replaced, because they have again shown that they know virtually nothing about the history of the event. In the hierarchy of the All-Star Race, Dale Earnhardt, Sr. and Jeff Gordon stand above the rest as the only three-time winners, and to not even list Gordon as the top Hendrick Motorsports driver in this event is a bigger miscarriage of justice than placeing Terry Labonte seventh. Now Johnson might eclipse Gordon in this event one day, but as of this writing, he has not, and to say otherwise is just pure lunacy. Have they forgot that Gordon is still the only driver to have swept every segment in the events in which there have been more than two segments, and drove from last to first in less than half the second segment in 1995, which is still the single greatest performance in race history, legitiamte or not. Evidently, people are already beginning to forget what Gordon has accomplished, and this is proof of it. 232. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want top correct something I said in my last post. SPEED did put Gordon ahead of Johnson. I just read it in the wrong order. Sorry for that mistake, but you still can't put Gordon behind Davey Allison, who is undoubtedly second on the list. Allison back-to-back wins were, to myknowledge, the only good finishes he ever had in the All-Star Race in seven starts, and earns him a special niche in the race's history, but no way is he above Gordon in terms of accomplishments in the All-Star Race. But I retract much of what I said in the last post. SPEED had Gordon #3 and Johnson #4, not the other way around, and for that mistake, I sincerely apologize. But still, not to have Gordon #2 is a travesty of justice greater than putting Terry Labonte #7. Dale Earnhardt, Sr. is #1 in the history of the All-Star Race, unless Gordon or someone else in the future becomes a four-time winner, and that's as it should be, because there's never been a race more made for a driver than the All-Star Race was for Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 233. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually ok with Davey being ahead of Jeff. I know Davey has 2 wins and Jeff has 3, but Davey only got to start 7 of them. Jeff has almost tripled those starts. Plus Davey is still the only back to back winner, and that should count for something. 234. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, my thing is that other than his back-to-back wins, which as I said, gives him a special niche in this event's history, Davey really wasn't all that great in the All-Star Race. He did have a third in 1988, but there was so much attrition in that race due to the tire war, that only seven cars finished on the lead lap, a record low for the event, and one of those was Dale Earnhardt, who crashed from a blown tire. And 1992, all Earnhardt had to do was hold his line when Kyle Petty got a run on him on the last lap and he might have been able to hold him off and keep Allison from those back-to-back wins. But instead, Earnhardt and Kyle Petty basically handed Allison that race. 235. Baker posted: 05.19.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3 top 3s in just 7 starts is damn good. I like you cjs and your knowledge is incredible, but some of your opinions stink of bias junk. 236. Anonymous posted: 05.19.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, There is are multiple problems with what you said about Terry Labonte. The first thing is Terry won 3 crown jewel events, not 2. Bristol race was considered a major by a lot of people including some people in the Media. There was an article on what NASCAR's majors were years ago, Bristol Night race was mentioned as a major by the writer and a lot of people that replied to the article. The 2nd thing is if Terry won the Daytona, it would be overlooked. Terry's best chase getting the 500 in my opinion for the final laps was in 1990. The problem with that is people would be talking about Dale's tire instead of Terry winning the race. While it is true that Terry Labonte won most of his races on drivers tracks, there are multiple reasons that happened the I don't think you put into consideration. Based on your logic in the past a driver's prime ends around the 500 to 550 cup race range. Terry Labonte was already around 550 starts when the 1997 cup season starting with him being 40 years old at the time. Remember Terry's first cup start was when he was almost 22 years old. This is very important because there was not a lot of tracks you could claim that they were horsepower tracks before 1997. Texas World Speedway and Motor Speedway left early in Terry's cup career. There was a big emphasis on driver tracks for a driver to win a cup championship since a lot of the races on the cup schedule from 1982 to 1996 were drivers tracks. A lot cup drivers from that era had over 50 percent of their career wins happening on tracks that were not a lot about horsepower such as Earnhardt, Waltrip, wallace as examples. Bill Elliott was the exception to that, Bill was great on Darlington, Rockingham, and Dover for getting cup wins at. Bill back in the 1980's had great engines on that helped on horsepower tracks a lot. That meant Michigan, Daytona & Talladega (before being plates tracks), Atlanta (to a point), Charlotte (to a point), and Pocono (to a point) were horsepower tracks on the cup Schedule when Terry was at his as best. Indy got on the cup schedule in 1994, but Terry didn't have a lot of shots winning there in his prime based on your a driver's prime ends in 500 to 550 cup start range. Atlanta had horsepower, but you needed handling like Charlotte and Pocono did. Terry really shouldn't have a lot more horsepower track wins than he did considering back in the 1980's Terry didn't have the engines for horsepower compare to Wendell Wilson, Robert Yates or Ernie Elliott. 237. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmm, Anonymous (#236)? First, if you're going to include the Bristol night race in the crown jewel races, which I don't, Labonte actually won that race twice, including in his 1984 championship season. But you are right in saying that a driver's prime effectively ends at the 500-500 start range. History generally proves that, and Labonte hed passed that mark early in the 1997 season. And it's no coincidence that he won just four times in eight years after that, five if you count the 1999 All-Star Race. He had won eight times in his first three seasons at Hendrick Motorsports and captured the championship in 1996. And your point about Michigan, Daytona, Talladega, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Pocono being horsepower tracks is, to a point accurate. After all, Terry never won at Michigan, Daytona, or Atlanta, and won only once in a points race at Charlotte. But when Terry was at his peak, Pocono was still somewhat a driver's track because you had to compromise one part of the track to make your car better at another. but another reason Tery had trouble winning at some of those tracks, espcially the ones where drafting was inmportant was that he was not aggressive, and so he was not likely to make the aggressive moves that an Earnhardt, Yarborough, or Allison would make. After all, Benny Parsons couldn't win at those tracks for the same reason, but Parsons ran better at the driver's tracks. And as for Indy, for some reason, Terry Labonte was never comfortable there, which is a major reason why he always struggled there. And as for your point about a lack of horsepower where Labonte was concerned, I'm not sure I agree with that, either. He did qualify on the front row for the 1984 Daytona 500 and won the Busch Clash in 1985 in his first stint with Billy Hagan, and he did run for Junior Johnson for three years, winning at Talladega in 1989 and finishing second in the last race there without restrictor plates, the 1987 Winston 500, and then ran all those years for Hendrick, so I don't think that argument holds a lot of water, either. And Baker (#235), as I said, Davey Allison's back-to-back wins in the All-Star Race give him a special niche in that race's history until someone else matches it, which nobody has in 20 years. But he was not really that good in his other appearances. He did finish third in 1988, but that was more through attrition as a series of tire problems left just seven cars on the lead lap, one of which (Dale Earnhardt) crashed due to a blown tire. And he was fifth in 1990, but my argument was that there's no way you can put him above Jeff Gordon, who won three times in his first eight starts, and perhaps had the two most dominant wins in event history. Now it's a toss-up between Davey Allison and Terry Labonte for third all-time among All-Star drivers, and I give a slight nod to Terry just based on his overall record when he was in good cars. 238. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm still ok with Davey being 2nd. 2 wins and 3 Top 3s in just 7 starts (in his first 7 years as a Cup driver) is nothing to sneeze at. And although he may have caught some good breaks in '92 (when he was still nursing broken ribs and the team was more concerned about testing for the World 600 which he was not only the defending champion of, a win there would have given him The Winston Million), in 1991 he just kicked everyone's ass. I say he deserves to be ahead of Jeff. Jeff's first win came by dominating in '95, but one week later in the World 600 he was found to have illegal suspension pieces (that NASCAR only found out about cause his tire came off) resulting in a then record fine for Evernham. I feel pretty confident in saying they were probably on The Winston car too. And in 1997, his famous T-Rex car was so illegal NASCAR didn't even know what to do. They finally told them to simply never bring it back. Now 2001 was really damn impressive winning in the back up. Dale, Davey, then Jeff sounds right to me. 239. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, while I agree that Gordon's winning car in 1995 probably had those lightweight hubs (which has never been proven), the T-Rex car that dominated in 1997 was perfectly legal. But that car had so many radical things on it that NASCAR told them not to bring it back, and even modified the rules to make that car illegal in the future had it been brought back, but it was legal when it raced in the 1997 All-Star Race. In that way, the T-Rex car was much like the Granateli turbine that dominated the 1967 Indianapolis 500. It was perfectly legal when it raced, but the rules makers changed the rules shortly after the race in question. The same was true of the T-Rex car. Ray Evernham simply outfoxed NASCAR in that instance with a radical, but perfectly legal car. Let's also remember that Gordon's All-Star wins were much harder to get for one simple reason, and that is the field inversion that took place at the end of the first segment in all three of his wins. Earhardt only had to deal with that once (in 1993), and Davey Allison only had to deal with that in his second win in 1992. Shorter segments combined with the field inversion, which hurt the front runners at the end of the first segment makes Gordon's three wins (and should be four) that much more remarkable. But even with all that, I still rank Gordon behind Earnhardt in the pantheon of All-Star drivers. 240. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Terry's best chase getting the 500 in my opinion for the final laps was in 1990. The problem with that is people would be talking about Dale's tire instead of Terry winning the race." Exactly. That is just how it goes for Terry. Let's not forget, the ULTIMATE crown jewel is the Cup championship which Terry won twice. And those are both overshadowed (1984 by Dale Inman) or forgotten (1996). Speaking of ultimate crown jewels: " believe his greatest moment as far as a single race win goes is that 1996 fall race at Charlotte, because he entered that race 111 points behind Jeff Gordon and left it just one point behind." This kind of showcases the kinks of judging drivers by crown jewel events. First off there is the question of what are the crown jewels. Is the Southern 500 still a crown jewel now that it isn't on Labor Day weekend (I say yes, but some would say no)? Is the Spring Dega race still a big deal ever since Winston quit sponsoring it and plates made it not the fastest track anymore (this Brad K fan says no)? Is the Bristol Night Race which has been a fan favorite for years and thus a big deal a crown jewel (I say yes)? But the ultimate test of pressure is what you touched on, winning races down the stretch in a tight points battle is what really seperates the greats. For example, Tony gets knocked sometimes for having just the two Indy wins while being goosed in the Daytona 500, all Darlington races, and the World 600 (which I think we can all agree those are crown jewels). But what about him staying steady down the stretch in '02, putting a season of controversy behind him when the points lead fell in his lap? How about him staring down the dynasty in waiting 48 team in '05 so badly they almost broke up right then? And do I even need to talk about his last 10 races of 2011? Would anybody say Tony can't perform under pressure (when his head is on straight of course)? And, at the risk of bringing up this hornets nest again, to me that is what seperates Earnhardt from Gordon. Despite his insane success in the crown jewels, shouldn't we also consider his three consecutive horrific late season fades ('95-'97) that are well known, and his other horrific late season fade (2001) that he got off the hook for because the people he was battling, the Yates cars of DJ and Rudd, faded even worse? Or 2004 and 2007 when he was simply outperformed when it counted? He had a real shot at the title 7 times in his career, won 4 of them, 3 of which had him hanging on for dear life in the end (or at least should have been in '01). Earnhardt, on the other hand, was able to turn it up late when pressure was applied. In '80, '86, '90, '93, and '94 he cut on the afterburners when he absolutely had to. He had 8 legitimate shots at the title, only failing to bring home the hardware in 1989 (Thank you Ricky. And Rusty. And your crankshaft from Charlotte). The only two that he won that weren't strong finishes were 1987 when Elliott outperformed him over the last 7 races after Dale took a 600+ point lead after race #22. Even then, despite Bill's 3 late season wins, he still won by 400+ points. And 1991 he pretty much won by default. That, to me, is how you ultimately judge a driver. 241. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But DSFF, is what you say about not finishing strongly about a driver not being able to get the job done at the end of a season, or the case of a team being conservative, just trying to finish races instead of tryin to win them? In the case of Jeff Gordon's collapses, it may have been a case of being too conservative. Remember that Gordon had a 309-point lead with four races to go, was ultra-conservative in the final few races. In 1996, he was pressured by Terry Labonte and cracked under the pressure, and in 1997, he, again, was conservative down the stretch, and it nearly cost him again. The same thing in 2001. Gordon's team, this time with a different crew chief, employed the same tactics, though I don't really feel he finished that weakly. In fact, he clinched the title at Atlanta by racing for it and dominated the season finale before being taken out by Robby Gordon (in the Lowe's car, which now seems symbolic). There's a fine line between cracking under pressure and just being too conservative trying to hold a big point lead, and in three of the four cases you mention, DSFF, it was a case of being too conservative. Earnhardt did the same thing to win at least four of his championships (1986-'87, '91, '94). His team played it conservative to try to finish races and not fall out of them, and it worked. But the thing about Labonte is that he's the only driver I know of in modern times that has had at least two chances to win championships, and never lost one. The only years in which Labonte had any chance at the championship at the end of a season were 1984 and 1996, and he came through both times, and that may be a true mark of a champion. 242. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale and his team weren't playing it conservative at the end of 1991, they just were slow, which carried over badly into 1992. He also wasn't being conservative in 1987, they just got outperfromed by the 9 team in the last 7 races which led to their '88 title run. Ditto for 1994 and Rusty Wallace. And he had a hell of a run to end 1986. Darrell tightened it up to around 120 points after winning Wilkesboro. Dale won 2 of the next 4 races to close Darrell out for good. Darrell blew up at Atlanta, then Dale promptly lapped the damn field. In the last race held at Riverside he finished 2nd to road course ace Tim Richmond. 243. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SPEED just opened coverage of the All Star race with a montage of the history of the event. Did we see two time winner Terry Labonte once? Nope. But at least we get to see Darrell spinning out about 50 times. 244. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Earnhardt's team got outperformed by Elliott late in 1987 and Rusty Wallace late in 1994 because they backed off it a little bit, trying to make sure they didn't have any problems. When Earnhardt knew he had the championship locked up, both in 1986 and 1994, he won the race in which he clinched the championship, lapping the field at Atlanta (though he only got the lap lead when Neil Bonnett ran out of fuel with a lap or two to go and Richard Petty wound up second) as you mentioned. Through the years before the Chase started, a driver and team would pften play it conservative with a big point lead, and Earnhardt and Childress were absolute masters of that. They could have won more races late in a number their championship years, but they realized it wasn't worth the risk when they had a big point lead. And I forgot to add 1993 to the list of years in which Earnhardt played it on the conservative side (for him) in the last few races. Earnhardt went winless the final 12 races that year, but played the old "let the clock run out on his opponents" strategy to perfection. He also had a 19-race winless streak in 1994, mostly because he was able to employ the same strategy with a 200-300 point lead after Ernie Irvan's crash at Michigan. 245. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The ending to '93 and '94 sure had a lot of 2nd and 3rd place finishes to be backing off. Same for 1987. And Holy Crap, this has been Michael Waltrip's worst performance in the booth yet. Why is he there????? 246. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also DSFF, in the final race at Riverside in 1986, Dale could go all out to try to win because he already had cliched the championship when Waltrip lost his engine at Atlanta, which allowed Earnhardt to run harder. Another case of this was the 1993 finale at Atlanta. Earnhardt had to play in conservatively until enough cars fell out to clinch the championship for him. Once that happened, you saw him make moves that made him famous. And yes, there was no mention of Labonte on RaceDay, perhaps because he was never in any of the controversial and highlighted moments in race history. He just ran like Old Man River, and if he had a good car, he was usually up there among the front runners, without getting much notice. The fact that he finished in the top three five times despite not always having the best equipment (he wasn't even in the All-Star Race in 1991) is why he's no worse than fourth (I even ratre him ahead of Jimmie Johnson) all-time in race history, and quite possibly third. 247. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After his 11th and final win of '87, he finished 2nd 4 times in the last 7 races, twice to Bill. In '93, he finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th 7 times in the last 12 races. And after Ernie's injury in '94 he finished first once (the clincher), 2nd 4 times, and 3rd 3 times (10 races). 248. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, the fact Earnhardt he had so many good finishes late in 1993 and '94 shows me how many races he could have won late in those seasons if he really needed to, but his main focus was finishing around where his main challengers for the championship, Rusty Wallace and Mark Martin were. If they finished sixth, Earnhardt was usually between fifth and ninth, if one of those drivers won, he finished in the top three. Earnhardt only ran as hard as he had to in order to win the championship, not as hard as he could, which is why they could never catch him. Earnhardt usually ran his car as hard as it would go, but when he had a sizeable point lead late in the season, he would back it down to about 90%, which was still usually good enough to finish in the top 3-5, especally if he had the first pit stall, which the champion got in those days. 249. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Conservative in the '93 finale? He was 3 wide in the first 3 laps prompting the announcers to talk about it. It is one of the ultimate Earnhardt moments to me. He only needed to finish 26th on a treacherous track (he had already wrecked his primary), yet he was 3 wide immediately. Ned Jarrett had one of my favorite calls: The Man can't help it, he has to race. 250. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really wish they'd quit interrupting these commercials by forcing me to watch about 4 laps at a time of this stupid racing. I didn't tune in for that. 251. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, he only had to finish 32nd in the Atlanta finale in 1993, but he started well back in the field and he wanted to get out of that as fast as he could. Childress entered Neil Bonnett and parked him as insurance, so that was one of the ten cars he needed to drop out to clinch the title. Once the race got settled, he played it a little conservative until the tenth car dropped out, then he charged. Oddly enough, at that point, the car began to fall off and he finished 10th. And on a totally dfferent topic, isn't it depressing to see cars start-and-park in the Sprint Showdown. Four cars have S&P'd in this race. Two did so in the first 20-lap segment, with two others doing so on the competition caution. 252. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon didn't collapse in 1996 he had a single bad race at Charlotte (which was a result of failing car don't breaking under pressure)after winning 3 straight and 4 of 5 and he also finished 2nd in the race he didn't win in that stretch at Richmond side by side with Ernie Irvan. He had two streaks of 6 straight podium finishes that year and his penalty was getting turned into the wall at The 500 in the first race of the year losing 61 points to Labonte and he lost the title by only 37. Don't forget at the Atlanta finale in 96' he lost 2 laps early, made up both laps, led 59 circuits and finished 3rd As for 1997? who cares? he won all 3 Crown Jewels with the title and The Winston to boot,the only true season Grand Slam ever achieved. Between the 1997 Daytona 500 and the 1999 Daytona 500 he won 24 of 66 races and had a Modern record 21 consecutive Top 7 finishes with only 1 finish outside the Top 5 in that stretch. 253. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) oh and 2004? blown engine at Atlanta chase cost him the title. 2007? 32 finishes of 12th or better in 36 starts,he already has 8 finishes outside the Top 12 this year alone. 254. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, on the start-and-parks in the Sprint Showdown, there were seven cars that ended up parking out of the 22 that started. That accounts for one-third of the starting field. Thank goodness there weren't any wrecks, or half the field, or more, would not have finished. 255. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt also blew up at Atlanta '04. Jeff also gagged at Rockingham '96. And Dale finished 10th in '93 cause, after he clinched (it was 26th btw), he drove into the side of Greg Sacks' car and caved in his entire right side, killing the aerodynamics. 256. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought Dinger was royally f**ked. But he drove his ass off. Sometimes you have to bottom out before you can really take off. Brad did last year. Maybe Dinger is about to ascend. This can only boost his confidence. 257. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What?????????? 258. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon didn't gag at The Rock, he had a car that wasn't worth a damn early, lost a lap, they got the car together but Gordon could only get back to 12th because of the lost lap,this is before the welfare system Nascar has. 259. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That 93 finale is one of the most memorable of all-time. it was one year removed from the earth shattering 92' finale, but, in more ways than one the 1993 finale means more to me because it was the end to an extremely dramatic and emotional season and it was the first year I truly paid attention to the racing and got into the drivers and the history of the sport,and to top all things the double Polish victory lap by Dale and Rusty is something i'll never forget or never want to forget. 260. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was 34th, DSFF. Earnhardt entered that Atlanta finale with a 126-point lead. (I just watched the opening of the 1993 finale on YouTube, which is how I got that information.) With 42 cars starting the race, the most Wallace could have gained was 148 points if he had won and led the most laps (which he did), which got him 185 points. Had he finished last and did not lead, Earnhardt would have gotten 37 points, which would have given Wallace the title by 22 points.(Rememner that under the Latford system, each position from 11th through the balance of the field dropped by three points per position.) So when eight cars dropped out, not ten as I mentioned in an earlier post, Earnhardt clinched the title, because when the eighth car dropped out, the most points Wallace could gain would have been 124, two short of what he needed to win the title. So we were both factually wrong about that. 261. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I stand corrected. But did you see the 3 wide pass and Ned's call? Damn that was an awesome broadcast trio (Ned, BP, and Jenkins). The best one ever was the 1989 Firecracker 400 when Mark got spun in the tri oval in front of everyone and BP damn near jumped out of the booth. 262. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, but I think the reason he was racing hard in the early laps was because there were suspect cars and drivers ahead of him on the start and he wanted to get by those drivers as fast as he could. And remember that there were several drivers, Earnhardt included, that had practice crashes that week, as the Atlanta racetrack was extemely treacherous because of the a new sealer they had put on the surface, not to mention a narrower tire. The combination of the two caused a lot of crashes, and even drivers not known for crashing were falling victim, such as Harry Gant. Also, there was a major problem concerning pit crew membres on several teams not being able to get to the track, including Darrell Waltrip's entire pit crew, and that was mentioned as a reason why Neil Bonnett parked it, so that his crew, led by Tony Eury, Sr. (Dale Earnhardt's Busch, or Nationwide Series pit crew) could pit Darrell Waltrip's car, because Waltrip's entire pit crew was late, and members of a number of other teams fell victim to the same malady, including the fact that no fewer than 16 members of Jack Roush's team were late to the race. 263. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Davey Allison is still the only person to win it back to back. 264. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This new format for the All-Star Race is terrible. Jimmie Johnson wins the first segment, then has no incentive at all to race, running several seconds behind the pack, and the same will probably be true about the winners of the second and third segments later on prior to the final segment. This format is an absolute bust and needs to be changed for next year. what they ned to do is go back to this race's most succesful and long-lasting format. It should be three segments, either 30 or 40 laps, then the same distance in the second segment as the first with at least a partial field inversion after a 10-minute break, and then the final 10 laps with the field lined up as it finished the second segment, with optional pit stops involved between the second and third segments. 265. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The racing itself seems to be better, but I agree about the format. 266. LordLowe posted: 05.19.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was hoping during that video you took at darlington that you would turn the camera around and show the face of DSFF. 267. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those Penske cars have some horsepower! 268. LordLowe posted: 05.19.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have to ask this question once again why has the racing been so abysmal this year 269. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did they really try to compare June clipping the grass to his Dad getting four tires deep and hanging on to the lead. 270. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did they really try to compare June clipping the grass to his Dad getting four tires deep and hanging on to the lead." just ignore it pretend it was never said. This race is pretty damn good, this is the best since 2009. 271. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Jimmie Johnson joins Dale Earnhardt, Sr. and Jeff Gordon as just the third three-time winner of the All-Star Race, but to me, it's an empty victory, since Johnson only had to race 30 of the 90 laps. That proves that the format used tonight is the worst in the history of the event. When a driver can win racing only one-third of the event, something is very, very wrong. When I saw the strategy being employed, I knew that if one of the drivers that won the first three segments won the race, particularly if it was Johnson, that this race would be a sham, and that's what it was. I wonder how the fans at Charlotte feel about the winnng driver not even racing for two-thirds of the event. On the other hand, Jimmie Johnson carrying Rick Hendrick int victory lane was reminiscent of another ex-Hendrick driver once being carried toward victory lane at Indy. That driver was Tim Richmond, who Johnny Rutherford carried to his pit area after winning the 1980 Indianapolis 500. And while two of the Hendrick drivers won segments and another was second in a photo-finish, Jeff Gordon was uncompetitve with the leaders again, never challenging and winding up 13th. He's not had that much speed all year, especially compared to his teammates, and tonight's race showed that in the most glaring fashion possible. Jeff Gordon will not win a race this year and may struggle to get back in the top 15 in points. The Alan Gustafson one-year recovery curse lives on. 272. LordLowe posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon's Wile E Coyote Luck Continues 273. JG24FanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey cjs3872 Gordon will win multiple races this year,my friend pointed out to me while at Darlington after Johnson won that Gordon's luck is so bad and now that Johnson got the 200, the only thing that would make sense for Gordon is if he dominated and won the championship this year. Gordon was extremely strong at California,Texas,Martinsville,Bristol so he's not down on power as much as you say(except qualifying). And Gordon doesn't give a damn about the All-star race next to a points paying event, so I don't think this race is indicative of his overall performance for the rest of the season. 274. Mr X posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was the most pathetic all star race format ever. I still think that the 2002-2003 format was best. If you didn't like your driver being eliminated then your driver should've driven harder, and his team should've prepared a faster car. Larry Mac said Jimmie earned over 1 million dollars for 90 laps, he didn't he earned over 1 million dollars for 30 laps effort. I also wonder why NASCAR continues to end this race with a 10 lap segment. Doesn't it seem odd that year after year the final segment is the most boring because there isn't enough time for anything to happen. This race's finish was sealed on the final restart as the outside line didn't go like the inside. If anything the final segment should be the longest, all the other segments had the best racing right at the end of the 20 laps, just as the short run starts to become a long run. The racing was better I think that this new package with a little bit less dowforce will bode well for the racing, and some longer runs will make the 600 quite entertaining I think. A softer tire would help even more yet. But most importantly this format should never again be used by any race anywhere. The only good thing that came of this format was that Jimmie Johnson didn't dominate the entire race because he didn't have to which concequently led to multiple drivers putting on a pretty decent show. However I very much look forward to the 600. 275. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nobody had anything for the 48. Much like they have done with the cha$e format, they used it to their advantage, but were only able to do so cause they had the best car. As much as I hate this format, I can only tip my hat to them while cursing NASCAR. Just like I feel about their 5 championships. Again, don't hate the player, hate the game. But I promise you I was hoping like hell Brad would win. Last year I was over moon that he just got in the damn race. This year I am bummed cause he finished 2nd. It is weird. It has been so long since I have been truly emotionally invested in a driver with legitimate expectations, since Earnhardt, that I am feeling some of those old feelings again. Brings back memories. Being truly bummed about a runner up in a big race, it has been awhile. It just feels so good to truly care again. 276. cjs3872 posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, Gordon's problem is not horsepower, it's car setup. His cars just don't have any speed in them. They generally handle well, but have no speed at all, and you can't win if you have no speed. Gordon may run in the topfive later this year, because he's proven he can run in the top five with cars that lack speed. 2008 was a prime example of this. He could run fourth to eighth, but his cars didn't have any more speed than that. Last year, his cars had sped, and this year his cars are just plain slow. t kind of reminds me of Al Unser, Sr. when he ran for Roger Penske. He could run in the top five, but from 1984 through the rest of his tenure with Penske, his cars just didn't have the speed the other cars on the same team had, yet he could still run in the top five with them. The same is true regarding Gordon. And let's also remember that his crew chief Alan Gustafson is good for one year with a new driver, then his teams plummet. It happened with Mark Martin, and it's happening again with Jeff Gordon. The only tracks where Gordon has had even siffed the front during actual racing this year are the tracks that don't really require a lot of speed. Yes, he ran through the field at California and Texas, but that had more to do with the way his car handled than it did with the speed of the car. His cars have been slow this year, and while his other teammates all contended, he never did, and I doubt things will get any better until late in the season when they get back to the short tracks, where outright speed is a non-factor. 277. LordLowe posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can you dig it sucka 278. 18fan posted: 05.19.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I personally liked the 30-30-10 format with the inversion after segment 1 and the 10 lap sprint with green flag laps only. I understand what they were trying to do with this year's format, but it failed epically. 279. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bring back Survival of the Fastest. 280. cjs3872 posted: 05.20.2012 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No DSFF, I never liked that idea because it's just not fair to flat-out say that, just because you were a victim of bad luck (remember what happened on one of Jeff Gordon's pit stops in the 2002 event), or got passed for a certain poition, that you should be effectively thrown out of the race for that. I do, however like a modified version of what they used to do with the 30-30-10 format, though I think it should be either 40-40-10, 40-40-20, or 40-30-20 with a partial field inversion of 8-14 cars between the first and second segments. Another thing they used to do was to award extra prize money for the leaders of each of the first two segments. At the end of the first two segments, they awarded $50,000 to the segment winner, $25,000 for second, and $7,500 for third. Now they would have to ramp up the prize money to fit the current times, but that would also add incentive to race hard in each segment prior to the finale. 281. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Uh-oh, DP blew a tire and pounded the wall meaning Johanna Long will finish ahead of her in her barely funded car. Again. Brian France is now working on a plan to fake his own death so he can get out of NASCAR. Wait, why am I saying "uh-oh"? 282. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The House always wins. At Iowa anyways. Back to back to back. Twas a valient effort Kurt, but you got Buschwhacked. 283. Spen posted: 05.20.2012 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dang it Ricky, I didn't think you could pull off a three-peat. You cost me big points there. 284. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about Darrell Wallace? An incredible first start. Joey better pick it up in Cup, or he will be Long-Gone-O. Of course Darrell is nowhere rwady for Cup yet, but there are too many talents in NWide. 285. Spen posted: 05.20.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey finished sixth in his Busch debut. We all saw how well that turned out, didn't we? I do expect Darrell to make it to Cup, though. Whether or not he'll be more than a mid-packer is another story. 286. JG24FanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 good explanation by the by, did you notice the contrast at the Southern 500 of Jeff having his worst Southern 500 and Jimmie having his best? it's a shame Gordon got so many laps down because after he came out of the garage he was one of the fastest cars in the race,I know you couldn't see it on T.V but Gordon would lay back half a straight on the restarts and be back up to the field in just a handful of laps. 287. DaleSrFanForever posted: 05.20.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now a word from our fine chairman, Brain (not a typo) France: "Chairman Brian France said before Saturday night's All-Star race that vice president of racing operations Steve O'Donnell has been charged with increasing the R&D Center's "focus on things that can make the racing better.''" What? I thought it was all about getting in big markets and making every NASCAR race a Hollywood production. Make the racing better? Brain actually said that? Folks, the Mayans were right! "we're zeroing in on if there's an aero issue. From time to time, there's going to be other issues that we're able to get at those faster." "If" there is an aero issue? If? IF? You have got to be freaking kidding me. What has he been watching for these past 10 years he has been chairman? ""You're going to see the R&D Center take a much more active role in everything from performance on the track to innovation." I've been the chairman since June 2003. We will no longer just use the R&D Center as a storage area for the mountain of Chad Knaus' confiscated parts, we will actually use that center to try to make the racing better. What an awesome brainstorm by me to come up with that! It only took a decade! ""Listen, " I'd rather not. "we have a new car coming in '13, so we want to make sure we're as good as we can be in terms of the on-track quality of racing,'' France said. "We're putting more effort in to get that right" Um, Brain? YOU HAD THAT SAME CHANCE IN 2007 AND WHIFFED WORSE THAN PEDRO CERRANO SWINGING AT A CURVEBALL (you know, before he told JoBu to f**k himself). Where was the R&D center then? Where was the focus on making sure the cars could actually race then? Aero had been an issue since 1995! 1995! Nineteen Ninety Freaking Five! "He said other innovations being investigated are ways to dry a track off 20 percent faster." That has only been an issue SINCE THE DAWN OF STOCK CAR RACING! Hell, NASCAR's big mainstream breakthrough, the 1979 Daytona 500 was almost submarined before it started cause they couldn't get the track dry. Good to see Brain is on that in 2012! He also weighed in on Danica: ""Most important, she's made improvements which was her stated goal,'' he said of Patrick, who is 10th in the Nationwide standings after a slow start. "That'll be what determines the impact in the end, how well she competes. Nobody knows that better than she does.''" Improving? But her stats at the end of last season..... never mind. And btw, thanks for that incredible insight in his second to last sentence in that quote. Well guys, I'd say the future of our sport looks good being in the hands of a chairman of such intellect and innovation, a forward thinker, and somebody who is totally in tune with the fans. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go puke my guts out now. 288. kup posted: 05.22.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) UPS - Universal Points System - after 11 of 36 Cup races 2012 Points for a driver = His Distance /devided/ His Average Finish After 11 races the leader is Ford #16 G.Biffle (Roush team) Main good surprise: 5th is Toyota #56 M.Truex-jr (Waltrip) Main disappointment: 25th is Chevy #24 J.Gordon (Hendrick) 1st Ford #16 G.Biffle: 4232 miles / 7,5 AvFn = 564 Pts - Roush 2nd Ford #17 M.Kenseth: 536 Pts - Roush 3rd Chevy #88 D.Earnhardt-jr: 504 Pts - Hendrick 4th Toyota #11 D.Hamlin: 445 Pts - Gibbs 5th Toyota #56 M.Truex-jr: 389 Pts - Waltrip - team not in Top-4 best! 6th Chevy #14 T.Stewart: 364 Pts - Stewart 7th Chevy #29 K.Harvick: 359 Pts - Childress 8th Toyota #18 Kyle Busch: 317 Pts - Gibbs 9th Chevy #48 J.Johnson: 294 Pts - Hendrick 10th Toyota #15 C.Bowyer: 293 Pts - Waltrip 11th Ford #99 C.Edwards: 291 Pts - Roush 12th Dodge #2 B.Keselowski: 269 Pts - Penske 16th Toyota #55 M.Martin: 224 Pts - Waltrip - 8 of 11 races. 18th Ford #9 M.Ambrose: 216 Pts - Petty - best AUS-man! 19th Chevy #5 K.Kahne: 214 Pts - Hendrick 20th Chevy #42 JP.Montoya: 204 Pts - Ganassi - best Latin-Am-man! 21th Dodge #22 AJ.Allmendinger: 192 Pts - Penske 22th Chevy #51 Kurt Busch: 176 Pts - Phoenix 23th Toyota #47 B.Labonte: 170 Pts - JTD 24th Chevy #78 R.Smith: 166 Pts - Colorado! 25th Chevy #24 J.Gordon: 162 Pts - Hendrick - worst career season for 4-time? 289. ch posted: 07.16.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor for the #18 should just be Doublemint for consistency. 290. ch posted: 07.18.2013 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #26 Sponsor: MDS Transport (consistent with all 2012/2013 starts) 291. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 07.23.2015 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Updates #16 3M Saftey/40 #24 AARP Drive to End Hunger/Charlotte 1 Million #27 Pittsburgh Paints/Menards #32 Southern Pride Trucking/Tmone #36 SealWrap #42 Target/Clorox #47 Scott Products/Bush's Beans #88 Diet Mountain Dew/AMP Energy #98 Phil Parsons Racing 292. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 03.22.2016 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Owner Update #52 Jimmy Means (Same at Martinsville and Kentucky) http://beyondtheflag.com/2012/03/28/scott-speed-hamilton-means-to-make-debut-at-martinsville/ 293. BOBO83329521 posted: 03.28.2020 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Went back and watched this. Was looking like a very boring race the first 300 laps, but it picked up in the end. Very clean for 300 laps, but they just couldn't keep it together for a full 368 (it was extended for a 1 lap overtime due to some kind of metal debris on the front straight after the Kurt Busch crash). Kurt Busch had a RIGHT to be mad at the team after that PATHETIC pit performance, what half-competent pit crew would drop their star driver from 8th to 13th on one pit stop when there were no hangups on the stop??? These were the ages where everyone felt bad for Martin Truex because he only had 1 Cup win and came up so close so many times. Now today that sounds weird how anyone could say "I feel bad for Martin Truex, Jr." with all his wins and dominant recent success with the 19 and 78 teams. This was another one of those races that should've been Truex's, had the lead before he pitted under that fifth caution and fell back to like 8th or something. Overall, I give this one a "meh" rating, not 2015 Michigan bad but nowhere close to 2018 Chicago, 2003 Darlington, 2001 Atlanta, etc. The late race cautions really made this race look a lot better than it was. 294. Anonymous posted: 05.05.2020 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Isn't it ironic fs1 will air both old Charlotte and Darlington races before NASCAR's first 4 races back from the virus, OKAY they're not that old 8-9 years ago thats not that old, But anyway this historic moment when Hendrick Motorsports thanks to Jimmie Johnson got there 200th Cup win. And it will re-air May 17th as well. OKay Thats good if you got a DVR to record them in case you can't see them. 295. JFM01 posted: 10.11.2020 - 7:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #52 owner should be Jimmy Means 296. Rich posted: 12.06.2020 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Joy, Larry McReynolds and Darrell Waltrip were the commentators. Dr. Dick Berggren, Steve Byrnes, Matt Yocum and Krista Voda were the pit road reporters. Jeff Hammond was the roving reporter. Chris Myers and Michael Waltrip were in the Hollywood hotel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: