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  *Comments on the 2012 Coca-Cola 600:*
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  1.   Daniel posted:
  05.24.2012 - 8:48 pm
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In using fastest 43: #19 Mike Bliss & #73 David Reutimann

Out using fastest 43: #32 T.J. Bell & #51 Kurt Busch


  2.   Unser1 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 8:52 pm
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David Reutimann failed to qualify for a race he won three years ago.


  3.   18fan posted:
  05.24.2012 - 8:53 pm
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First career pole for Aric Almirola. He is the first first-time pole or
race winner this year. I try to not be critical of Danica, but how does
she only run faster than 3 cars that took time.

With the RPM cars on the front row and Jimmie Johnson in 3rd, we could
see a lot of the 48 car out front early, especially with a long green
flag run to open the race. But I do think Biffle, Martin, Kahne, and
Hamlin will also quickly pass the RPM cars. I do expect Ambrose to stay
up there a while(he finished 6th and led 18 laps last year in the 600),
but I expect Almirola to fall like a rock.


  4.   18fan posted:
  05.24.2012 - 8:58 pm
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I was thinking too fast when I posted, I meant to say that Biffle,
Martin, Kahne, Hamlin, and maybe Bowyer will quickly pass the RPM cars
and challenge the 48. I do expect Ambrose to hang in the top 10 for a
good portion of the race.


  5.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.24.2012 - 9:37 pm
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They qualified? Where was I?


  6.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.24.2012 - 9:46 pm
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Well done Marcos! And congrats to Aric, top effort lads! Bring on the
600 :)


  7.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 10:08 pm
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Aric Almirola accomplished something in the #43 car tonight that I'm not
sure even Richard Petty ever accomplished, and that's putting the #43
car on the pole for the 600. I believe this is the first time the #43
car has ever won the pole for the World or Coca-Cola 600. Even the two
times Petty won this race (in 1975 and '77), David Pearson was on the
pole, as the Wood Brothers won six consecutive 600 poles from 1974-'79
(five with Pearson and one with Neil Bonnett). I just hope that Almirola
doesn't turn into another Mike Hiss in the early laps. Hiss sat on the
outside of the front row for the 1974 Indianapolis 500 in one of Roger
Penske's cars (which was originally intended for Peter Revson), and was
a rolling road block for the first few laps of the race. But with a guy
like Almirola on the pole for such an important race, and with guys like
Jimmie Johnson, Mark Martin, and Kasey Kahne wanting to get by such an
inexperienced and unproven driver early, there could be a big wreck in
the first five laps.


  8.   10andJoe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 10:43 pm
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From the last thread:

>No one as blatently Christian as Trevor can be sponsored by any sane
company, as you'd run the risk of alienating 20% of your potential buyers.

What about a Christian company though? Like Chick-fil-A?

(And it's a sorry sorry state when it's considered OK to discriminate
based on the fact someone's a Christian. Any other religion (except,
perhaps, if he was Jewish), nobody would even think to suggest that.)


  9.   10andJoe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 10:44 pm
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I was shocked to see that Reutimann didn't qualify. And he was the one
car I missed running (dang dog needing walking). What happened?


  10.   Eric posted:
  05.24.2012 - 10:49 pm
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cjs3872,

This was not the first time the 43 car won the pole for the World or
Coco-Cola 600. Richard Petty won the pole for the World 600 in 1961 and
in 1966.


  11.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:24 pm
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If he did, it would have had to have been back in the 1960s. I have made
a complete record of the history of the Coca-Cola 600 up through about
2010 based largely info from this website, but did not have access to it
at the time I wrote that in my last post. But given that, I believe Mark
Martin and Bobby Labonte may be the only drivers that was even alive the
last time Petty sat on the pole for the 600.

And the fact that David Reutimann, the 2009 winner, failed to qualify,
reduces the previous winners in the field by one and increases the
number of start-and-parks from six up to seven. Of those that had to
qualify on time, only Reutimann and Trevor Bayne are not
start-and-parks, so that means that 36 cars will try to run the distance
Sunday evening. And with a guy like Almirola on the pole, I wonder if
there will be a major crash in the first five or ten laps caused either
by his overeagerness or by other drivers trying to move to get by him in
the race's earliest stages.

Like I said, I can't remember the last time there's been such an
unproven driver starting up front in a major race like this, and when
there is, there's usually trouble fast. If that is the case, we may see
fewer than 30 cars that try to run the distance, be able to do just
that. Remember what happened in this very race in 2001 when Ryan Newman,
then a totally unproven commodity in stock car racing, was on the pole?
He crashed in the first 15 laps, if I remember right. I just hope that
if there is an early crash, it's not a huge multi-car event taking many
potential prospects out of contention, and even the race all together.


  12.   10andJoe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:29 pm
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#49 sponsor: America Israel Racing (JPO isn't on the car this week)


  13.   10andJoe posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:31 pm
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>Of those that had to qualify on time, only Reutimann and Trevor Bayne
are not start-and-parks

And Reutimann DNQ'd; however the 33, 30 and 95 might run the distance.

I'd say the 98 might too, given they actually have something prominent
on the car this week, but I've been burned making that prediction before...


  14.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.24.2012 - 11:52 pm
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10andJoe, I don't think the #30 hasn't run the distance yet this year,
and the #95 has only run a few laps in each of it's starts, and Phil
Parsons has no intention of running the #98 past the first pit stop, as
well. In fact, I think they took that car (the #98) behind the wall in
the Daytona 500 just to get far enough behind so as to not be able to
race anyone, because they wanted to finish without wrecking. And I don't
really think that Joe Falk is going run the full race with the #33 car,
either.


  15.   Daniel posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:04 am
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I think McDowell stated on his Twitter than they were going to attempt
the full distance this week. And Stremme is a possibility as they have
attempted to go the distance in a few races this year.


  16.   Spen posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:35 am
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Stremme did attempt to go the distance for the first four races, when it
looked like he had a legit chance at making the top-35. Since then, he's
been a consistent parker, and I don't expect this race to be any different.

Leicht's another story. At the very least, he has to stay out longer
than Josh Wise if he wants to try to win ROTY.


  17.   10andJoe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:36 am
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>I don't think the #30 hasn't run the distance yet this year

They ran the full distance at Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Martinsville, and
attempted to at Daytona, Bristol and Richmond.

>And I don't really think that Joe Falk is going run the full race with
the #33 car, either.

In the three races the 33 has qualified for since Falk took it over,
they've run the distance in two of the three, while their Talladega
engine failure /might/ have been legit...


  18.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 1:11 am
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What I think is going to happen is those teams in question, especially
the #26 and #33 cars, are going to check out what the other
start-and-park teams (19, 30, 74, 87, and 98) are going to do, and see
how long they have to run to beat them. I don't think that Rookie of the
Year is that important to the particular teams involved. And as I
mentioned, when McDowell did try to run the distance in the Daytona 500,
his team parked him for about 20 laps so that he wouldn't have to race
anyone near the finish, in order to make sure that McDowell brought the
car in one piece. And how embarrassing must it be for both Chip Ganassi
and Front Row Motorsports to have both of their cars (four in total)
outqualified by Stacy Compton's S&P car, and for David Gilliland to have
been outqualified by five or six of the potential S&Ps.


  19.   Spen posted:
  05.25.2012 - 2:19 am
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ROTY does matter to a certain extent. There's a fairly sizeable cash
prize at the end of the year, which means a lot to small teams like FRM
and Falk. That's the main reason why teams of that callibar hire drivers
like Kevin Conway and Andy Lally.


  20.   Ed posted:
  05.25.2012 - 10:59 am
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I would have loved for the fastest 43 rule to be in effect this weekend,
though Kurt still would have gotten in because they've always had the
past champion's provisional.


  21.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:01 am
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Spen, I think it matters more to the drivers than the teams, especially
bottom-rung teams like those who just start-and-park, or run at the
back, because the cash prize is not very much today. At least, not as
much as it was about 20 years ago when the cash prize for Rookie of the
Year actually meant something. And the Rookie of the Year itself has
meant nothing for the last two or three years. However, in the next two
or three years, it will mean something, once again, because of the
drivers that sould be coming up. Hopefully, there will be better cars
available for those up-and-coming drivers by then.


  22.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:06 am
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Ed, they haven't always had the champion's provisional. That only came
about around 1990 because Richard Petty failed to qualify for a couple
of races in 1989. I would, however like to see the top-35 exemption rule
go away and go back to the qualifying rules prior to 2005. Maybe you'll
see some new teams and sponsors enter the sport, because the top-35 rule
is what's keeping new teams and sponsors out of the sport, I believe,
and is a cause of the number of start-and-park teams. I think that if
you go back to the pre-2005 qualifying rules, the number of teams doing
start-and-parks would decrease, if not go away all together.


  23.   10andJoe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:20 am
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#73 sponsor: Burger King / Dr. Pepper


  24.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:21 am
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I think there's more to start and parking than just being able to make a
race or not and it's all about money. On one hand, a NASCAR stock car is
one of the cheapest cars to buy in the entire motorsport world. Same
goes for engines. But on the other side of the coin, because both the
season and individual races are so very long, the cost of running a car
becomes relatively high. So what this means, is that it's incredibly
easy for someone to buy a car and get into the sport, but running a
complete season is an entirely different thing.


  25.   10andJoe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:23 am
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I wouldn't say they'd go away completely - S&P predates the top 35 rule
by a long ways. It would however help the currently S&Ping teams a lot.

Ironically, you could argue the top 35 rule has had the inverse of its
expected effect - it was ''intended'' to reward the "regulars" and make
it easier for them to find and keep sponsors because they'd be
guaranteed a spot. However, while that really hasn't happened (see: Matt
Kenseth's sponsors or lack therof this year), it has kept teams
/outside/ the top 35 from getting sponsors on account of making it more
difficult to get into the field...

So, yeah, ditch it off the back of the turnip truck, and go back to the
fastest 38 cars, 4 provisionals based on points, then either the PCP or
the next fastest car.


  26.   10andJoe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:26 am
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M535i - that's a good point. And a lot of teams do that to help break
themselves into the sport - that was the intention of the 30 team, and
they put up the old college try this year in the first races. Why nobody
will sponsor that team is a mystery. Tommy Baldwin did the same thing -
start out S&Ping to break in the team and crew, then start running full
races. I think Turn One Motorsports is following the same pattern.

This is another one of the reasons - along with "vanish for even one
week and your career is dead" for drivers, see the relative careers of
the one-time S&P driver Landon Cassill and, say, Stephen Leicht - that
S&P really doesn't bother me*, despite the constant howls about it.

(* Unless it's a case of, say, an established team S&Ping a second car
that bumps "genuine" other teams out of the field, this was my issue
with the Germain #60 last year...)


  27.   Woodbridge posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:18 pm
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Heard it here first. Almirola won't suck on Sunday.


  28.   Bronco posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:28 pm
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"Like I said, I can't remember the last time there's been such an
unproven driver starting up front in a major race like this, and when
there is, there's usually trouble fast."

It's pretty baseless for you to say that a young driver starting up
front is going to lead a big crash in the first few laps.

1) Almirola is not inexperienced, he has more or less been around the
sport for 7 years now and while he isn't a prolific winner, he doesn't
have a wrecking ball reputation either.

2) Inexperienced drivers starting up front for major races is nothing
new, Gilliland won the pole for the 2006 fall Talladega race and the
2007 Daytona 500, Sorenson and Ragan started up front for the '07 and
'11 Brickyard 400. Compton won the pole for both Talladega events in
'01. Nothing happened early in those races due to inexperience, and no
big crash is going to happen early on Sunday due to Almirola either.


  29.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.25.2012 - 12:31 pm
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Can't believe Reut failed to qualify. That really sucks. The screwing
over of him and his career has reached its crescendo. He won't be in the
race he won in 2009. Was that race a gigantic fluke? Yeah, but he wasn't
running bad. Given KyBu's issues in closing races in Charlotte, is it
too far fetched to think he might have won it anyways?

It just sucks that he is going through all this while MWR is finally
running with the big boys from time to time. That should be Reut out
there contending for wins. Instead Mark gets to go out there as part of
his hobby and run this race, and the #10 car that he has busted his ass
to keep in the Top 35 (including swallowing a ton of heat at
Martinsville for trying too hard and he didn't realize he could have
parked a few laps earlier) will be in this race with the glamorous
princess getting lapped early and often in the same equipment as the
defending champ, two time winner this year, and guy who has won the most
races since the start of last year, and with a two time champion Cup
crew chief. This really pisses me off that Reut is out. And we hear how
everyone is happy for Truex cause he was there when MWR was "going
through their growing pains".

Bull

Shit

Although I like Truex personally, he joined in 2010. Reut is the one who
suffered through the disaster of 2007, and slowly gained traction over
the next two years, then flat out won the Chicago race in 2010. He is
the one who deserves to be reaping the benefits. But instead he is on
the freaking couch. All because Mark can't just go away gracefully,
Michael Waltrip is Michael Waltrip, and Danica needs to be in the more
popular Cup Series to "help her with her brand" even though she is
nowhere near capable of running a Cup car. You finish 31st 6 laps down
in a race in equipment that won the last championship and won 3 of the
first 6 races of the year, and that is universally considered a
"success"? What a load of shit. Good to see at least they aren't letting
David "The Mule" Reutimann get in the way.

By the way, Reut would have totally won Kansas this year. Now if you'll
excuse me, I have to go throw a Kurt Busch like cursing tantrum.


  30.   Mike posted:
  05.25.2012 - 1:32 pm
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To continue the S&P discussion: I don't think you can say Reutimann and
Bayne were the only non-S&Ps among the go or go homers this weekend. The
49 has tried to go the distance in every race they've made (except maybe
Darlington, although 132 laps is a long way for an S&P to go). The 33
team has gone the distance everywhere but Talladega.

I'd expect to see between 3 and 6 start and parks Sunday - the 26, 74
and 87 will be in the garage early; the 30, 95 and 98 might join them,
although those teams have a history of at least sometimes trying to run
the full races. (Or, in the 98's case, have sponsorship.)


My guess is that the RPM cars will be in the mix at the end. They've
both been fast in practice, and having both of their cars qualify so
well makes me think that it's something in the cars or their setups,
rather than being that one fluky fast lap. (Also, note that Almirola
wasn't just fastest, he blew the rest of the field away. Winning the
pole by almost two tenths of a second - that's a lot.)


  31.   Watto posted:
  05.25.2012 - 2:22 pm
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I wouldn't be so sure that Reutimann would've won Kansas this year, but
he certainly has the ability to win with a good car given his impressive
Chicago win in 2010. Truex I do feel is a great driver, and I like him a
lot, but I also see a lot of my own personality in David Reutimann which
makes me really pull for the guy. I was pretty sad that he couldn't get
a more competitive ride this year, given that he probably had the
opportunity to get a really solid ride as MWR was gaining momentum but
instead chose to be loyal to Michael. I personally don't see anybody say
that Truex was there through the growing pains, as clearly Reutimann
went through waaaay more of em with MWR, but maybe I just haven't looked
around enough.

I think it's easy to say that Reut had a better year than Truex in 2010
by a small margin, but it was Truex last year who had a better year than
Reut. Certainly it was a baffling year for that 00 car. He didn't have
much luck at all. But I do have a lot of faith in Truex, and I honestly
don't think he would've won Kansas had he even waited the extra two laps
to make a move. He needed Denny to make a mistake, because a banzai move
like that would've been an immediate crossover and loss of position had
it actually worked. Just my opinion, I guess. I wish Truex wasn't
incredibly loose when they came out of the pits on the final pit stop,
because otherwise he would've won that race. He doesnt exactly have a
history of choking, either. His only Cup win was complete domination at
Dover. Bad strategies have cost Truex lately... look at Darlington. Look
at the Showdown on Saturday.

But I'm with you on Reutimann.


  32.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 2:34 pm
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Bronco, I'm not saying that Almirola being up front, by itself, is going
to lead to a crash through impetousness, though it could happen (again,
I cite what happened to Ryan Newman in the 2001 Coca-Cola 600 as an
example). What I'm saying is that other drivers trying to get around him
early might cause something to happen, becasue they might fear something
like that happening with such an unproven driver. And I wasn't talking
about having an inexperienced driver as much as I was an unproven
driver, especially in such a big event like the 600. If it were an event
like Richmond, or next week at Dover, I'm not sure I'd have such
reservations. But having such an uproven driver leading the field to the
green flag, or up front at the start in such a big event is what worries
me.

Chances are that nothing will happen, other than the fact that he'll
drop back like a lead balloon, but there have been cases of having an
unproven driver up front in such a big event leading to disastrous
consequences. Key examples of this were the 1973 and 1982 Indianapolis
500s, where having inexperienced drivers up front led to disastrous
things happening.

Now Ambrose I could see being in the mix at the end, but not Almirola.
Ambrose has been in the hunt late twice this year, but ran out of fuel
in the final two laps both times, robbing him of the finishes he
deserved in those races.

And as for the start-and-parks, remember that Joe Falk only recently got
the #33, and that Richard Childress ran that car earlier in the year, so
I don't think you can compare what Childress did with the #33 to what
Joe Falk's doing with it now. Childress did try to run the full race,
because he wanted to build up points, in case sponsorship came along,
which would have allowed him to run it the full season. But now that
Childress is no longer involved there, and with Joe Falk the car owner,
it's questionable whether that car will try to run full races, since
that's now one of the smallest teams on the circuit. And it's true, the
#49 car with J.J. Yeley has run the full races this year, but it, like
David Reutimann in the #73 car, failed to qualify for this race, so the
only one of the non-top 35 cars I expect to run the full race, or try
to, will be the #21 Wood Brothers car. I expect all the rest of them,
the 19, 26, 30, 33, 74, 87, and 98 cars to park it in the first 100
miles of the race, leaving 36 cars to try to complete the race.


  33.   Daniel posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:39 pm
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I don't see the 33 parking. It's made 4 races since it started being ran
by Falk, and it has finished 3 of them. Hermie Sadler at Martinsville,
Tony Raines at Texas, and Stephen Leicht at Richmond. The only race they
didn't finish was at Talladega with Tony Raines with an engine issue
listed as the reason they were out. Since they also had the biggest
sponsor they've had, Black Cat Fireworks, I assume that was a legitimate
issue. The Falk 33 hasn't looked like an S&P so far.

I see the 21, 33, and 98 attempting the full distance, with a
possibility of the 30 and 95. The 26, 74, and 87 will definitely park it
though.


  34.   Woodbridge posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:45 pm
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I'd personally like to see one of the teams that would typically be a
S&P operation hire Reutimann to run the race instead of their normal
driver and try to make a solid attempt with a proven driver. Reut
doesn't deserve to miss races and drive for backmarkers with all the
effort he's put in over the last few years.


  35.   LordLowe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:47 pm
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Look Out I think DSFF is going to blow.


  36.   palo_s posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:50 pm
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#29:
BK Racing made big mistake.. Darlington - David qualified via owners
points, because David was slow, but he was in #93..


  37.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 3:57 pm
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Daniel, I hope you're right about the #33 and #98, but I just don't see
it, especially where the #98's concerned. Remember that the one race
that the #98 finished this year, the team parked it for 20 laps because
they wanted to make sure that Michael McDowell wouldn't be racing anyone
in the late stages, to make sure the car wasn't wrecked. And we'll see
about the Falk #33 with Stephen Leicht at the wheel. Again, I hope
you're right about the #33 trying to run the distance, but I'm
skeptical. The only non top-35 car we know will try to run the distance
will be the #21 car, with the #33 probable to try to run the distance,
with the other six almost certain to park it in the first 50-100 miles
Sunday.


  38.   10andJoe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 4:05 pm
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>was pretty sad that he couldn't get a more competitive ride this year,
given that he probably had the opportunity to get a really solid ride as
MWR was gaining momentum but instead chose to be loyal to Michael.

IOW, he Ward Burton'd his career.


  39.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.25.2012 - 4:35 pm
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Cjs, you have to realize, from behind the steering wheel, EVERY race is
a big race. What it takes to run well in a major is what it takes to run
well at any event. Once they are in race mode, any driver worth their
weight wants to win just as bad. Besides, any win anywhere can really
boost team morale and confidence. Take for example the 2011 STP 400 at
Kansas. Just another cokkie cutter race. But it was a victory in that
race that set the Blue Deuce's season on fire and took Brad's career off
life support. Conversely, in 2008 Ryan Newman one the ultimate major,
the Daytona 500. But he had a very dysfunctional relationship with
Penske Racing by that point, and before the season was done, he had
already announced he was leaving.

Honestly, the "majors" are more for the fans. This isn't golf. Drivers
and teams try just as hard every week.


  40.   LordLowe posted:
  05.25.2012 - 4:38 pm
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Hey DSFF if you were in charge of NASCAR I bet one of your first acts
would be to publicly fire both Darrell and Michael Waltrip.


  41.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 5:11 pm
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But DSFF, this race coming up, the Coca-Cola 600, is one of the "big
four" or "big five", something everyone agrees with. Sure everyone tries
as hard as they can every week, but this is one of those races that
drivers tend to try too hard in, and mix that in with a guy up front
that's never been up front, and then add the pressure of one of the
sport's big ones, and you have a recipe for potential disaster. Again, I
hope nothing serious happens, but with an unproven driver up there, and
leading the field nonetheless, you have the potential for disaster. Of
course, if Almirola blows an engine, or crashes in the final practice
sesion, all this conversation goes for naught, because he'll start at
the back anyway, which will put the rest of the drivers at greater ease,
I can assure you of that. The only caviat to that is that it would
effectively put Jimmie Johnson on the pole, since the row moves up from
behind anyone having to fall back.

And the fact is that Ryan Newman was never a favorite with many of those
at Penske because of his nearly constant squabbling with Rusty Wallace,
who wasa Penske favorite from the word "go". Remember that Penske gave
Wallace his first NASCAR starts in 1980 and Penske thinks as highly of
Wallace as he always has with Bobby Allison. In fact, a lot of people
believe that Rusty retired when he did because he wanted to distance
himself from Newman. But Newman was never really a favorite at Penske,
and when his results began to dim (which occurred after Rusty left, by
the way), it was evident that Newman had to go. And having Kurt Busch
there made an already toxic situation even worse. Now with Brad
Keselowski there, it seems that Penske has his #2 car back up to where
it was when Wallace was winning races by the bushel. now he has to get
his other car up there, but I still don't think A.J. Allmendinger is the
right driver for the #22, but only time will tell.


  42.   Daniel posted:
  05.25.2012 - 5:11 pm
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To turn away from the S&P discussion for a second, it's been announced
that Dick Berggren is retiring after Dover. There goes about the only
member of the Fox broadcast team that I can bear listening to.


  43.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 5:57 pm
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Yes, that's kind of sad. With the combination of Berggren's retiring and
the fact that Bob Jenkins is retiring from broadcasting IndyCar races at
year's end to be with his family, it's kind of a sad day for those that
grew up in the 80s and 90s watching the sport, because Jenkins and
Berggren were such a part of helping the growth of the sport on TV in
the last three decades, but as they say, time waits for nobody.


  44.   Eric posted:
  05.25.2012 - 6:09 pm
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cjs3872,

There is more than 2 drivers alive when Richard Petty got his final pole
at the World 600 in 1966 in terms of drivers that made or attempt to
qualify for this years Coco-Cola 600.

Dave Blaney was born in 1962 and Mike Bliss was only a year old in 1966.


  45.   Eric posted:
  05.25.2012 - 6:30 pm
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There was another thing that happened at Penske while Newman was there.
Don Miller, the former President of Penske South left in 2005 after he
sold his ownership to Roger. Penske South was lost for a time without
Don Miller besides not having Rusty Wallace. Don was one the people
responsible for how good Penske South was along with Rusty Wallace.

The other to look at Ryan Newman was fact his performance was not the
same after 2003 unlike the claim after 2005. Ryan in 2004 only had 2
wins, 11 top 5's and 14 top 10's compare to 8 wins, 17 top 5's and 22
top 10's in 2003. Ryan improved slightly in top 10's in 2005, but he had
1 win the amount of top 5's decreased to 8. The Amount laps Ryan lead in
2004 decrease, and the same thing happened again in 2005.

Ryan Peaked in 2003 at Penske and he results were going down in wins,
Top 5's and laps lead in 2004 and 2005 before Rusty left. 2006 was more
of the same. Newman's performance going down in 2004 came be blamed on
his relationship with Rusty Wallace.


  46.   Eric posted:
  05.25.2012 - 6:31 pm
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I am curious on who Fox replaces Dick Berggren with.


  47.   Spen posted:
  05.25.2012 - 7:26 pm
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Cjs: There's a big difference between Almirola this year and Newman in
2001. Newman was 23, and had I think, 3 Cup starts up to that point.
Almirola's 28, and has more than a full year of experience in a Cup car.
I agree that he'll fade quickly, but I doubt he'll wreck in the early
going. If he keeps his head, he might even come away with a top-15 for
the night.


  48.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.25.2012 - 7:38 pm
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"M535i - that's a good point. And a lot of teams do that to help break
themselves into the sport - that was the intention of the 30 team, and
they put up the old college try this year in the first races. Why nobody
will sponsor that team is a mystery. Tommy Baldwin did the same thing -
start out S&Ping to break in the team and crew, then start running full
races. I think Turn One Motorsports is following the same pattern."

I think you're spot on with that one. So many people paint the start and
park teams as being absolute evil, soulless creatures, who don't care
about racing and are only in it to make a quick buck, but I don't see
that at all. I don't like the fact that the whole start and park
phenomenon exists, but it does exist for a reason. There are ways to
eliminate them, sure, but at the same time, you would be taking away
other positive aspects of the sport in the process.

There is a lot more to running a NASCAR race team than what you see on
the TV. Buying a car, engine and turning up to a track is just the
beginning, but I can't be critical of these guys for having a go.

Also, Dick Berggren has quite possibly been my favourite
reporter/commentator in NASCAR. Well done buddy and enjoy your well
earned rest!


  49.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.25.2012 - 9:03 pm
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"I am curious on who Fox replaces Dick Berggren with."

It had better be someone good. If its Jeff Hammond then i'm fine with
it, DWs ex-CC could be decent pit reporter. I hope to the man upstairs
that it ISN'T Bill Weber (even tho i think Bill was a good pit reporter
back in the day).

IMHO i hope its an ex-driver. I've always wanted to have an ex-driver be
a pit reporter.


  50.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.25.2012 - 9:38 pm
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LordLowe, I'm not sure NASCAR officials have jurisdiction over who is or
isn't on TV. But I would certainly see what I could do to get Mikey off
the major broadcasts. See what incentives I could offer.

Bob Jenkins is my favorite play by play guy. I always hoped one of the
networks would pick him up.


  51.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 9:43 pm
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That might be true Spen, but there's a big difference running in the
second half of the field and running up front in one of the biggest
races of the year. And even though Almirola has 46 starts under his
belt, most of them have been spent in the second half of the field,
though he did get a good top five in the 2010 finale at Homestead.
Starting up front in such a big race can have an unusual effect,
especially for someone not used to running up front, and that's why I
have that fear of either him crashing early, or others crashing because
they're in a hurry to try to get around him. Again, I'm not sure I'd
have such a big worry if it was not a race the caliber of the Coca-Cola
600, but because his first time starting up front is in such a big race,
that's why I worry.

And if Almirola keeps his head, I look for him to fiish around 20th, and
possibly get a top 15 if attrtion is higher than usual among those that
usually run up front. But then again, this race had one of it's most
shocking top of the field orders last year when both David Ragan and
Joey Logano finished in the top three, and the #43 car post it's only
top five of the year with A.J. Allmendinger. I don't look for a repeat
of last year's bizarre fuel mileage finish, or it's equally bizarre
finishing order.


  52.   18fan posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:42 pm
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cjs, I hope the finish isn't like that where guys who were really strong
all night like Kenseth, Biffle, and Kahne got screwed and guys who
lumbered along like Logano and Allmendinger got high finishes. I am
ususally extremely critical of David Ragan, but he did run solid in that
race and deserved a top 5 finish. Ragan posted the third highest driver
rating and third highest average running position in the 2011 Coca-Cola
600.


  53.   AlmirolaFan88 posted:
  05.25.2012 - 11:59 pm
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Mike Ford has brought Aric's confidence to a level I didn't see at all
last season while he was at JR Motorsports, and it'll only get better as
they put more races under their belt. I wouldn't be surprised to see him
lead the first 10-20 laps, depending on how patient Jimmie is behind
him. His most recent Nationwide Series pole @ Phoenix, he lead the
opening 66 laps before a lugnut issue put him back in the field and he
crashed out. But seeing that this is his first ever 600 mile race, he
could have some trouble keeping up with adjustments late in the night,
but his second Top 10 of the year isn't out of the question.

Also, looks like I'm the first to point this out, Aric qualified for the
Shootout at Daytona in 2013. It'll be his first Shootout if he's
retained in #43 next season.


  54.   LordLowe posted:
  05.26.2012 - 12:36 am
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Lady Luck For Jeff Gordon this year must be named Brooke because all of
it has been atrocious.


  55.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 12:40 am
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Yes, apparently having the sticker on the side of the car is no longer a
requirement for either the pole award (which is sponsored by Coors) or
the Shootout, even though that's still sponsored by a beer company. If
you remember, I voiced some questions about that when the switch to pole
winners was announced back in February, so my questions there have been
answered. However, for Almirola to finish in the top 10, there will
probably have to be at least one big crash during the race, or fuel
mileage will have to work in his favor. However, a finish in the top
15-20 should not be out of the question if he runs great Sunday night
and has no problems in the pits, which has been a problem for Richard
Petty's teams for years.

And 18fan, whether or not his is a fuel mileage derby depends on when
the cautions fall. But also remember that last year's race was not the
first time that fuel mileage brought about a bizarre top of the running
order. The top of the running order in the 2007 race was even more
bizarre that last year's, with Casey Mears, J.J. Yeley, 1987 Coca-Cola
600 winner winner Kyle Petty, and Reed Sorenson finishing in the top
four positions, though there were also two big crashes in that race, on
top of the fuel mileage strategy that played out.


  56.   Red posted:
  05.26.2012 - 12:50 am
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Yeah, I don't have an issue with teams who S&P for a year to gain
experience and resources, then start running full time after that. The
ones I dispise are the Phil Parsons and Curtis Keys of the world, who
use S&P as a business model to steal money with no intention of racing.

I agree 100% with DSFF about big races. cjs and I have debated this
before, but I just don't see much difference between majors and
non-majors, at least from a driver's perspective. Auto racing is a very
reactionary sport, so when you combine the high speeds and lack of
breaks in the action, it keep drivers focused on the present moment and
nothing else. When Aric dives into turn one on the first lap, I highly
doubt he'll be thinking "Oh shit, this is the Coke 600" and suddenly put
his car in the fence.

The big moments have a greater effect in sports where the athlete has
idle time to think, and let the pressure of the moment get into his
head. Shooting free throws, kicking field goals, and putting a golf ball
are the types of activities that allow for choking and pressure to
become an issue. Racing is pretty much the opposite, since there's no
time to stop and think.

Think about all the races where a driver has made a mistake at the end
and lost the race as a result. Did he really choke, or just make a
mistake at the worst possible moment? From a psychological standpoint,
those two things are very different. When Tony Stewart lost the lead on
the final lap of the 2008 Daytona 500, was it because he gagged under
the pressure, or did he simply make a choice to switch lanes that
happened to not work out? Moreover, if that was the Firecracker 400
instead, would he have made a different lane choice, because the race
isn't as big? That's a rhetorical question, because the answer is NO.

And even if we concede that choking is a real phenomenon in NASCAR, the
fact is that drivers have choked away just as many regular races as they
have majors. Jeff Gordon lost a race at Pocono in 1995 by missing a
shift, and also gave away a race at Watkins Glen in 2007 by wheel
hopping and spinning out of the lead. Those certainly aren't majors, but
Jeff "choked" anyway.

IMO, the only time in NASCAR that we really see drivers and teams
noticably caving under pressure is during close championship battles.
Denny Hamlin and Mike Ford definitely gagged in 2010, with their fuel
miscalculation at Phoenix, then a horrible qualifying run, spinning out
24 laps in, and inexplicably deciding not to repair the car at
Homestead. They have hours and days to think about the championship, and
it ate them alive. If you want a real measure of who's cool under
pressure, look at the guys who know how to close out championships: Dale
Earnhardt, Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart are the three that come to
mind for me.


  57.   hi posted:
  05.26.2012 - 1:02 am
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palo... it's sad to watch, because BK Racing doesnt have many resources,
and when David Reutimann has run a 3rd car, both times have been an
"extra" chassis with a weaker motor. When Kvapil ran #73, it was
actually his #93 car from a few weeks back. David's running crappier
cars, and getting crappier results because of it. I think Reutimann, at
the very least, is as good as Travis Kvapil


  58.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 1:59 am
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Red, add Terry Labonte to the list of those that were cool under fire
when it came to winning championships. After all, he had chances to win
championships only twice, and came through both times, and in 1996 came
through under the most trying of circumstances. After all, he should
never have been able to win the title in 1996, considering he was racing
against a faster teammate, and broke his wrist in a practice crash at
Phoenix, but managed to come through and win the title.

And also, one thing about a driver being able to win a big race is not
necessarily just being cool under fire, but also the willingmess to make
the big move when it counts, like Jeff Gordon's moves to win each of his
three Daytona 500s, or the equally stunning move he made to claim his
most recent 600 win in 1998. The willingness to make a risky move is
another thing that separates those in the big events. Now the risks
don't always pay off, but the willingness to try is something not
everyone has. Cale Yarborough was a prime example of this. He would
always wait until the final lap to try his slingshot pass. More often
than not, that tactic worked, but it backfired on him a couple of times,
as well.


  59.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.26.2012 - 2:51 am
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Also, for the most part, a driver's record in major races is easily
explainable. Rusty never won the Daytona 500 but he never won ANY races
at Daytona or Dega. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, he never even had a
Top 5 at Dega. He never won the Southern 500, but was also goosed in his
entire career at Darlington. In fact, he said during the NWide broadcast
he never got a hold of that track and sometimes it made him feel like he
couldn't drive a race car. Indy has was strong at, just like he was at
Pocono, but he had bad luck. He should have won it in 1995, but met the
dreaded aero push. Had he had the chance to run that event 20 times like
Dale did in the Daytona 500, he eventually would have won one.

Now there are some anomolies. Smoke winning the Firecracker 400 3 times
while being goosed in the 500 is one. Then again David Pearson, who won
the Firecracker 4 times while winning the 500 just once, once talked
about how different the track is in the heat of July as opposed to the
relative cool of February. Sometimes a track's two dates are drastically
different. Good example: Cale won the Southern 500 5 times but never won
the Spring race (though I doubt he's complaining lol).


  60.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:14 am
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Going back to start and parks, we need to remember that, beyond just
buying and running a car, there's still a hell of a lot that goes on
behind the scenes and plenty of lttle stuff that can go wrong....and on
that....I've just picked up another car to begin a dedicated track
build, so I'll be able to keep you all up to date on what all that
little stuff is and just how frustrating it can be! Yay!!


  61.   Spen posted:
  05.26.2012 - 6:22 am
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10andJoe: "Why nobody will sponsor that team is a mystery." Not much of
a mystery. David Stremme is behind the wheel. He'd have better luck
finding sponsors if he'd forget about trying to be a Cup driver, and
just stick to being co-owner.

Regarding the #98, Parsons' team did go the distance for this race in
2009, so there's a slight chance that they might do it again. I wouldn't
bet on it, though.


  62.   palo_s posted:
  05.26.2012 - 7:02 am
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#56:

Big question: Why didnt they lock David? Travis made good time.. David
had same problems in Darlington..


  63.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 10:39 am
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DSFF, David Pearson actually won the Firecracker 400 five times, not
four as you said, though the first one was a 250-mile race, not 400, but
it's still in the books today as a win in the Firecracker 400. wever,
Pearson, who only won the 500 once, did have some things go against him
in the final few laps that kept him out of victory lane in the 500 prior
to 1976. One was a caution brought out by Dick Brooks' blown engine late
in the 1970 race, which he had in hand and the other was he and Cale
Yarborough getting together on the backstretch on lap 198 when Pearson
was lapping a group of cars. Yarborough was trying to follow Pearson
through and misjudged it.

As for Wallace's inability to win big races, sure he has only one win in
the bog races, which lowers him in my estimation, but he had a laundry
list of second places in those events. For instance, he never won the
Brickyard, but finished second three times. His lone win in one of the
crown jewels was in Coca-Cola 600 in 1990, but he also finished second
in that race four times, oddly all to Hendrick cars (1988 to Darrell
Waltrip and three times to Jeff Gordon), and was second in the Southern
500 twice and was fourth there in his very first Southern 500 in 1984.
And he and is team gagged the one time he should have won the Daytona
500 (1999). If he wins even half of the big races in which he finished
second (he won only one crown jewel, but finished second nine times in
them), I'd have him higher than 12th or 13th on my all-time list.


  64.   Baker posted:
  05.26.2012 - 11:01 am
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Looks like a tropical storm is heading for the Carolina's Sunday's.
Another rain soaked 600 blah


  65.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.26.2012 - 12:17 pm
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Charlotte, NC. 10% Chance of rain Sunday. Things are looking fine for now.


  66.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.26.2012 - 2:04 pm
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Red, you forgot Kyle Buschs gag during the 2008 Chase and his gag during
2009 Richmond race when he lost a Chase spot to (of all people) Brian
Vickers.

A driver shold be judged on (IMHO) stats (wins, championships, etc) and
what you have done for the sport. Jimmie Johnson has the stat department
down pat but he hasn't ANYTHING for NASCAR as whole. NASCAR hasn't grown
during his 5 year spread as champ (even tho it isn't complete his fault
to be honest but his on track personality doesn't help and the economy),
he hasn't gotten NASCAR more exposure (again his on-track personality
doesn't help, NASCAR was almost completely ignored during his reign)

Now guys like Jeff Gordon and Dale Sr., they had everything NASCAR
needed to grow. (NASCARs growth wasn't completely based on them but they
certainly helped)


  67.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.26.2012 - 2:53 pm
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While it is true that JJ's intentionally bland public persona (which is
doubly frustrating because, by all accounts, once away from the cameras
he is quite a character) hasn't helped NASCAR, he certainly hasn't been
alone in helping NASCAR fall in ratings and attendance. The biggest
offender is NASCAR itself whose short sighted decision making in pursuit
of the quick buck has had some dire long term consequences magnified by
their stubbornness in admitting they were wrong. From bland cookie
cutter tracks with modern amenities and near big markets to their
inability to make a dent in the aero issues that have plagued the sport
since 1995, to the fact that a lot of the bland personalities have come
from NASCAR's long policy of cracking down hard on drivers for the
slightest offenses (which has contributed to JJ's boring public
persona), NASCAR needs to take the brunt of the blame.

But yeah, JJ hasn't helped. But again, to play devil's advocate, some of
the famous personalities were in the right place at the right time. The
King came along and gave NASCAR a professional affable face to a
backwoods sport with barely literate drivers, while still displaying the
Southern charm to capture the attention of a Southern sport. DW came
along as guy more than willing to speak his mind in an era where drivers
avoided cameras cause they were beginning to get some national exposure
and didn't want to look like a dumbass redneck that could barely speak
3nglish.


  68.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.26.2012 - 3:01 pm
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Sorry, posted too soon. But to end the thought, Big E came along when
NASCAR was sort of in a rut and stirred fans passions and sparked fierce
debates about his style that continue to this day. He also capitalized
on marketing and basically revolutionalized how NASCAR was marketed. And
of course Gordon was the young, politically correct, Californian face
NASCAR needed when they officially made themselves a national sport.
What NASCAR needs now is an anti hero for us fans wary of all the
politically correct drivers seemingly all pulled from an assembly line.
Somebody who doesn't say or do the right things, things that even his
own fans disagree with at times. Somebody who will be themselves and not
give a shit what anyone things. Brad K? Needs to be really successful
though.


  69.   Anonymous posted:
  05.26.2012 - 4:09 pm
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"Starting up front in such a big race can have an unusual effect,
especially for someone not used to running up front, and that's why I
have that fear of either him crashing early, or others crashing because
they're in a hurry to try to get around him. Again, I'm not sure I'd
have such a big worry if it was not a race the caliber of the Coca-Cola
600, but because his first time starting up front is in such a big race,
that's why I worry."

Uh again, it doesn't matter whether Almirola is on the pole for the 600
or a 400 mile race at Michigan, drivers are going to race him just as
hard because preparation and effort goes into each race, not just the
majors. In fact, given the 600's distance I would say there's going be
less pressure on him from the back because most drivers would expect him
to fall to the back anyway once the sun goes down.

Also I mentioned Sorenson winning his first and only pole for the
Brickyard 400 in 2007, with about the same amount of NASCAR experience
at that time as Almirola has now. There was no big wreck, and Sorenson
finished that race in 5th. I don't remember early wrecks when Denny
Hamlin won the pole at Phoenix in 2005 before his rookie season even
began. Before that, Vickers and Busch won poles very early on in their
rookie seasons, I don't think anything catastrophic happened then.

"Of course, if Almirola blows an engine, or crashes in the final
practice sesion, all this conversation goes for naught, because he'll
start at the back anyway, which will put the rest of the drivers at
greater ease, I can assure you of that."

Thankfully none of that has happened to Almirola, so he gets to keep his
pole position. It would be really nice if you would quit making
completely outlandish, baseless predictions.


  70.   Watto posted:
  05.26.2012 - 4:38 pm
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"Newman's performance going down in 2004 came be blamed on his
relationship with Rusty Wallace."

I really don't think that's the case, lol. I don't think their success
in 2003 was because of them using Rusty's notes or anything like that. I
also don't think he was getting shafted on equipment.

As for Wallace's lack of "big race" wins, I think it ultimately falls
down to the type of driver he was. He was better on "driver's
racetracks". The fact that he's won on road courses, short tracks,
bigger tracks, etc says more about him as a driver than the fact that he
only won 1 600 out of his 2 points wins at Charlotte, never won the
Daytona 500, etc. He was never that great at Daytona/Talladega and I
think it's primarily because they're so reliant on car & luck. Rusty was
best on tracks where you made your own luck. He wasn't a stand-out at SS
racing. And frankly, I think it's way more impressive when a driver can
win on almost any kind of track, as opposed to a driver who primarily
wins "crown jewel" races at places like Daytona and Talladega and Indy
and doesn't have the same success on road courses, short tracks, and
many unique tracks. Rusty definitely struggled at Darlington though. And
for the poster who wondered if he ever got a top 5 at Dega, apparently
he has one. Actually one of the races he barely missed out on a top 5
was the 1993 race where Earnhardt dumped him in the tri-oval, where
Rusty ended up crossing the line 6th either airborne or about to be.


  71.   Baker posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:06 pm
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DSFF post #68

You described Tony Stewart to a T and he still seems like a villan to
me. I've been a fan of his since USAC and everything I read from other
fans comes across as him being a loud mouth villan. Like you said he
says things that sometimes his biggest fans question. When he does open
his mouth, however, things do always seem to change for the better.
Other fans complain, piss and moan, call him a loud mouth cry baby and
everything else, but you cannot deny things always seem to change when
he gets PO'd. All that said he still has never been able to get a fan
following near what Earnhardt, Gordon, Wallace, Martin, Elliott or even
Jimmie Johnson. I live in small town Ohio and every other Nascar fan up
here is a JJ fan(Front runners more than likely as they all route for
the Steelers and Yankees too). Anyhow, that is Tony to a T and he's also
as "Blue Collar" as it gets for Nascar drivers. Again it still hasn't
been able to pull a big fan following. He's country boy at heart and
again still hasn't been able to pull a fan following.

Who knows maybe its just where I live as I only know two Stewart fans in
a good 100 mile radius out here.


  72.   Baker posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:07 pm
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So I hear Ricky blew up?

How is Elliott Sadler running then? I hope he blows up too. Never liked
him and never will.


  73.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:22 pm
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But Anonynous (#69), the thing about Sorenson was that he ran well in
the Daytona 500 in 2007 and finished fourth in the Coca-Cola 600 before
winning the pole at Indy, so he had experience running up front in big
races prior to that pole and fifth place at Indy. Aside from a fourth
place finish at the 2010 season finale at Homestead, Almirola has no
experience running up front in the Cup series, and not much in the
Nationwide Series, where Sorenson had won twice in the Nationwide Series
before moving up to Cup. And what you said about guys like Denny Hamlin
winning the pole at Phoenix in 2005, Brian Vickers winning poles in his
2004 rookie season and Kyle Busch doing likewise in 2005 is true, none
of those were in big races (and Kyle Busch frequently crashed early in
races in his rookie year). And Vickers had already won the Nationwide
Series title in 2003, so he had already proved himself in clutch situations.

And of course I'm glad nothing happened to Almirola, nor do I seriously
think anything bad is going to happen. I just said that the probability
is increased when there's an unproven driver up front in a big race. And
even the best have made mistakes in those situations. In his first
Indianapolis 500 in 1978, Rick Mears qualified on the front row, and
there was a lot of talk about having a rookie on the front row, so what
happens? Mears promptly misses a shift on the start, so that happens to
even the best of them in their first shot in such a big situation.
However, that was one of the rare mistakes he ever made in a big situation.

And as far as Rusty's lack of success in crown jewel races goes, he had
success in the crown jewel races, he just didn't win very many of them,
but he ran well in them, as he finished second nine times. In fact,
Rusty Wallace is the only driver ever to lead more than 100 laps in one
race in both the Daytona 500 (1999) and Brickyard 400 (2000), but in
typical Wallace fashion, he found a way to lose those races.


  74.   LordLowe posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:44 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

CJS I have a question for you what led to the demise of Robert Yates
Racing during the 2000's


  75.   Watto posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:53 pm
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Typical Wallace fashion? lol. Rusty Wallace does NOT have a reputation
for blowing races. Bobby Labonte's car was significantly faster in the
second half of that race and it wasn't a surprise that Bobby won. Also,
it's pretty easy to lose the Daytona 500 if your car can't stay up
front. It's literally all car. Gordon got a massive run, and it's either
run Jeff Gordon into Ricky Rudd, or give him a lane.


  76.   Red posted:
  05.26.2012 - 5:56 pm
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Baker, I don't think Tony Stewart is a villain anymore. Once he became
an owner, Tony knew he had to clean up his act and be more sponsor
friendly, because he's now directly answering to his sponsors. From
1999-2008, I would agree that Smoke was an anti-hero, but even then he
never polarized fans the way Earnhardt or even Gordon did. There's also
a fine line between being a villain and just being an asshole, and IMO
Tony crossed that line on a pretty regular basis. Think about his antics
during the 2006 Daytona 500 for example. Did anyone think he was cool
for that? Kevin Harvick is the same way, more douchebag than villain.
Kyle Busch is a rule breaker, but he's so immature that no one older
than 14 can relate to him. Kurt Busch is just an entitled, raging assclown.

I would say Brad K is the closest thing we have right now. He's not a
villain per se, and he doesn't do stupid shit, but he is a contrarian,
and speaks the truth in a world of PC robots. Brad is someone that fans
can rally behind because he actually has the balls to say what many of
us are thinking. "Kyle Busch is an ass!" I loved that, because no one
else would say it. Before he moved to Cup, I didn't know much about him,
but every week I like Brad more and more.

FWIW, I have also come to like Jimmie Johnson. Yes he's a little too
corporate, but he's not corny or childish or holier-than-thou, and
obviously his success speaks for itself. Same with Kenseth. Those guys
just go out and kick ass, and don't feel the need to run their mouth in
the process. I can relate to that mentality, because that's how I would
probably act if I were in their shoes.

On the other hand, a guy like Carl Edwards makes me sick. His aw-shucks
act is so phony, and even though he always says the right thing, I don't
buy a word of it. If I had a chance to spend a couple hours with a Cup
driver, Carl would be my last choice. Then there's guys like Ryan
Newman, who alternate between being boring and trying in vain to be
funny, which also seems forced. Remember Ryan's cringe inducing
interview where he went off on a tangent about polar bears? Epic fail.


  77.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 6:38 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

But Watto, it seemed that every time Wallace got into position to win a
big race, either he or his team would find a way to lose it. You
mentioned some examples. But here are others.

In the 1994 Coca-Cola 600, which Rusty seemed to have a lock on, Ray
Evernham gambled on two tires and got Jeff Gordon the lead, but Rusty
should have been able to run him down in the final laps, but instead,
the opposite happened. Rusty was also in position to win the Brickyard
that same year, but didn't drive into turn three as hard as Jeff Gordon
did when they were side-by-side with Rusty on the inside, and lost any
chance of winning. Losing the '95 Brickyard was no fault of his, or his
team. He might have won the 1997 Coca-Cola 600, but a speeding penalty
forced his team to play an alternate strategy and he was beaten again by
tires in the '98 600, though the way the strategy played out, the right
car won.

And in the 1999 Daytona 500, he was screwed by his crew chief Robin
Pemberton, who I felt was one of the worst crew chiefs in the sport, and
he cost Rusty the Daytona 500 that year when he elected not to pit Rusty
on the final caution period. And in the 2000 Brickyard 400, he just
backed off when Bobby Labonte got alongside him and did the same thing
two years later when Bill Elliott, who had the best car the 2002
Brickyard 400, got alongside him. But he backed off instead of racing
them through the corner the same way Jeff Gordon did in '94, because
Rusty had a preconceived notion that you couldn't race side-by-side at
Indy. Those are examples of why I say that Rusty always seemed to find a
way to lose the big events, instead of finding a way to win them.

And even in the one big one he won, the 1990 Coca-Cola 600, many people
thought that on the final restart, that Bill Elliott, who had never won
the 600, would find a way to get around Rusty, who had the superior car
that day, but Rusty held him and Michael Waltrip off to take the win in
the 600. Of course, Elliott, like Cale Yarborough, never would win the 600.


  78.   18fan posted:
  05.26.2012 - 8:16 pm
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Interesting stat about Kyle Busch this year: In the races he's led, he
has a win, 4 top 5s, and 5 top 10s in 5 races. His best finish is 10th
in races he did not lead.


  79.   OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 9:15 pm
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Does anyone else wish that Nascar and Charlotte would fix that opening
on the backstretch wall?


  80.   Woodbridge posted:
  05.26.2012 - 10:12 pm
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Hey Baker, where are you from in Ohio? I was born in Chillicothe, went
to college in Wilmington and am now in Marysville.


  81.   Baker posted:
  05.26.2012 - 10:41 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I went to Wilmington a year! I'm from a small dirt road town no one ever
knows so I'll just say about 45 minutes south of Cleveland.


  82.   Alex posted:
  05.26.2012 - 11:33 pm
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#46 My guess is Jeff Hammond

#49 Hermie Sadler does it in Trucks


  83.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.26.2012 - 11:48 pm
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Well Eric (#46) and Alex (#82), we probably won't find out who will
replace Dick Berggren until next year, if they'll replace him at all.
Remember that Dover is FOX's final race of the year. Maybe they'll go
with one fewer pit reporter. If I had to venture a guess, they'll
probably choose someone that isn't already on their broadcast team, if
they replace him at all.


  84.   bayne posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:13 am
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Joe Gibbs Racing, DO NOT GIVE THE 20 CAR TO KURT BUSCH OR NEWMAN, Give
Trevor Bayne a chance!! the kid has talent and maturity beyond his age,
and is extremely a likeable person unlike the busch brothers, and as for
Logano, all you can really say is BUST. not to be disrespectful, but he
hasnt performed in cup rank, and is 4th year now and is still flailing
in the water, he simply cannot find a handle on the cup cars, maybe a
move back to nationwide is a good idea, or to find growth with another
cup team , perhaps MWR, or the 22 car which, HE BETTER NOT GET, and
about Mcmurray, and allmendinger, where do they end up? allmendinger
gets the boot, dont know where he goes, maybe BK racing replacing
ruetimann and ruet goes to the 22??, that would be a good fit, truex
will resign obviously..newman is up in the air, and for mcmurray is a
good 2nd to 3rd teir driver, and is a proven winner as well as
ruetimann, its all to confusing...what is everyones thoughts?


  85.   bayne posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:14 am
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and what about martin? and vickers? or anyone else,..any thoughts guys?


  86.   Spen posted:
  05.27.2012 - 4:36 am
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I do see Logano taking over the #55 whenever Mark decides to finally
retire for real. Probably in 2014, after a year back in Nationwide.


  87.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 7:43 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I agree, I don't like seeing driver recycling. Give somebody new a
chance. I would love to see Bayne in the #20 and Stenhouse at SHR. Cause
lets face it, Roush ain't gonna find sponsorship for them. Not quite
ready to give up on Dinger yet. Maybe it will all click for him like it
did for brad last year, maybe he just doesn't have the right combination
for him. Like Brad in 2010.


  88.   Destroyahirismix666 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 9:32 am
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I agree with DSFF. I do not think that the fact this is the Coke 600
will change Amirola's look at this race much, if at all. I believe he
will become a moving, slow roadblock, and within 50 or 60 laps he'll be
in the back of the field, maybe spin once or twice. But I highly doubt
he'll cause any major changes.

However, that all changes if it's later in the event. If, by some far
out reason, he's going to restart late in the first two rows, and I'm
talking like last 100 miles late, then we could expect a big crash from
him. He could JR Hildebrand the wall, he could just accidentally turn
someone. Who knows. This the Coke 600. It's not that predictable.

I think that Logano will lose his ride late this year. However, I do not
believe that filling him with Trevor Bayne is a good idea. The kid is
great, but Bayne, in all of his NASCAR Sprint Cup starts, was only able
to have good runs at Plate races, Vegas, and at Indianapolis last year.
He only recorded 3 top 10 finishes in 17 starts, and two of them were
plate races. I love plate racing and all, but that does not showcase a
driver's talent. Case-in-point, Michael Waltrip. Not to mention, Bayne
never led any of the first 200 laps in that Daytona 500. To put Bayne
into a full time ride like that would prove to be disastrous for that
team, and probably a step back from Logano. Mainly because the team and
the fans would expect to much from him. Regardless though, he's probably
going to put in another driver that he'll regret later. Honestly, I
think that Joe Gibbs should abandon that third team. There is nobody
they will be able to put in that car that would be able to preform as
compared to Tony Stewart, or heck, even to Hamlin and Busch 2. And God,
please, oh please, don't hire Busch 1 for that 20 car. The two Busch
brothers in one team, aghhhh. I couldn't bear to see it. Face it, He
won't be able to get Stenhouse, and Sadler is as much of a liability to
his team as Ku. Busch would be.

Well folks, I'm going to watch the 95th Indianapolis 500! Have a good one!


  89.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:44 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Destroyahirismix666, about Trevor Bayne, you have to remember what team
he drives for in the Cup series. He drives for the Wood Brothers, a
part-time team that, even though it is backed now by Roush, has little
chance for success, so any time they run in the top 15, they consider it
a success, so saying that Bayne has "only" three top 10s in 20 starts
actually qualifies him as a success, considering who he runs for. And
you mention that Bayne did not lead any of the first 200 laps in last
year's Daytona 500. That is for a simple reason. He did not WANT to
lead, because as was heard in a radio communication to Carl Edwards,
wheh his car got in front, it tended to pull away (which he, in fact did
on the final lap), which at Daytona and Talladega, actually puts you at
a disadvantage. So his strategy was to push all day and hope to pull out
on the last lap. But he could have led any time he wanted to in that
race, as his car was the fastest in that race.

But Bayne's top ten at Las Vegas was the first such finish for the Wood
Brothers on a mid-sized track since Kansas in 2005 with Ricky Rudd. And
let's not forget that in last fall's race at Charlotte, Bayne was
actually threatening the top five before fuel pressure problems dropped
him back. As another poster mentioned, the biggest obstacle to Bayne's
NASCAR career is his faith, because no sponsor would touch him with a
10-foot pole because of the percentage of those who use such a product
Bayne's faith would alienate.

Gibbs' #20 car might be his best option, because that would give Bayne
something in common with his car owner, though having a die-hard
Steelers fan (which Bayne is) driving for a Hall of Fame Redskins coach
might be problematic. And having a guy like Bayne and Kyle Busch
teammates wouldn't exactly fit, either. And Penske would be Bayne's
other real option for a full-time ride, because I do not think it would
be a good idea for the Wood Brothers to ever go back to full-time, since
being a full-time team is what got them in that mess they were in a few
years ago to start with. The Wood Brothers are just too small a team to
be running the full circuit, a fact they knew in the 1970s when they
were the dominant team on the circuit, along with Petty Enterprises and
Junior Johnson's team.


  90.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:45 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

And by the way, Destroyahirismix666, today's running of the Indianapolis
500 is the 96th, not the 95th.


  91.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 1:10 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well, an Andretti is out front dominating the Indianapolis 500. In which
heartbreaking menner will he lose it? I feel like it is the mid 90's and
I'm watching Earnhardt leading the Daytona 500.


  92.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 1:22 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Word is Conway hit one of his crewman". He hit THREE of them. Then he
just lost it, taking Power with him. AJ is totally gonna kick his ass.


  93.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 1:29 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well DSFF, it turns out that he broke his front wing in that pit road
mishap, which caused him to lose control. Actually, Conway is extremely
lucky, because had his car continued to turn over, his helmet could have
hit the catch fencing. And his was the fourth car to get airborne after
crashing, as that had happened three times during practice and
qualifying. Helio Castroneves was lucky to get through though his right
front tire grazed the wheel from Conway's car.


  94.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 1:43 pm
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True, but AJ is still gonna kick his ass.


  95.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 1:56 pm
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More for the road mishap than the crash, DSFF.


  96.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 2:04 pm
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Yeah, did you hear AJ say he ran over "my crewman". AJ knows how
important those guys are and will protect them. By kicking somebody's
ass if they run them over.

Domo ori gato Takuma Sato, he is leading.


  97.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 2:09 pm
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Holy cow, RHR looks and sounds just like Kasey Kahne.


  98.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 2:20 pm
   Rate this comment:      (1)      (0)

Marco Busch Andretti is not happy at all.


  99.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 2:39 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Racing is so deeply a part of Indianapolis, they grow Indy cars in the
grass!


  100.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 2:56 pm
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That'll put your heart in your throat!


  101.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:04 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

The Curse is real. Also, GO KANAAN!!!!!!


  102.   LordLowe posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:08 pm
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This race has been very very competitive with lots of lead changes.


  103.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

That really sucked.


  104.   10andJoe posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:23 pm
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Indeed. Shame Sato proved true to form.


  105.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Yeah Ashley Judd, you celebrate. You are a horrible actress whose career
went in toilet a long time ago, and are truly the least talented of the
Judd family. But at least you married a racing legend. So congrats on that.


  106.   LordLowe posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:27 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

IMO I think Sato Made his move too soon and it cost him the victory.


  107.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well, what is it that I have said about crown jewel races, and people
trying too hard to win them, as well as guys knowing how to win races,
and the fact that some athletes can handle the big occasions, and others
can not. What happened on the start of the final lap of the Indianapolis
500, perhaps more than any other time in any other race I've ever seen,
proves my point. Some guys are fit for the big occasion, and some are
not. Dario Franchitti has proved that he can handle the big moment, and
those that pursued him, especially Takmua Sato, proved that they are not
up to the task. Say what you want, but Sato's move goes right up there
with the Jean VandeVelde disaster at Carnoustie in 1999 as one of the
dumbest things I've ever seen at a big sports event.

The great ones prove themselves on the biggest stages, and those that
are not so great often show why they're a step below ultimate greatness.
There's a reason why some guys win crown jewel events over and over,
while others who are just as talented can not, and that is their ability
to handle the moment. Franchitti handled the moment, while Sato could
not, and that is why Franchitti is now the tenth 3-time Indianapolis 500
winner.


  108.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:40 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Dario is one of the best ever in Indy cars. I wanted Kanaan to win, but
no shame in losing to this era's most dominant driver at Indy and all
tracks combined. Too bad he wasted that one year in some of NASCAR's
worst equipment. Which reminds me, we can pretty much forget about a
Memorial Day double for an owner. Those EGR cars suck gigantic donkey
schlongs.


  109.   18fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:48 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Sato ran an excellent race for 199 laps and then threw it all away with
that move in turn 1. He said Dario didn't give him enough room.


  110.   10andJoe posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:50 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I suppose Dario didn't give Carpenter and Andretti enough room too...oh,
wait...

Sato needs to suck it up and stop driving over his talent level when it
comes to the crunch. He dove too deep and paid the price for going below
the white line. This is at least the third race /that I've seen/ him
throw away a good finish or a win through driving too fast, too soon,
and I know there's been more. You screwed up, admit it, man up and go
win at Detroit.


  111.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 3:54 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

No 18fan, what Sato did was make an idiotic move that was never going to
work. Any driver with any experience in drafting would tel you that what
he should have done was wait until they got on the backstretch to make
the slingshot pass. That would have given him enough of a lead to carry
him through, because that would have given him about a 10 car-length
lead, and they would never would have gotten to him. In fact, had the
positions been reversed, Dario would never have tried that because he
has enough experience to know that move would never have worked. I
actually though that Dario would back off and let Sato by on the main
straightaway to get that slingshot on the back to get back by him, but
Sato almost took out the front of the field in turn one.


  112.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.27.2012 - 5:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"If you no longer go for a gap, you're no longer a racing driver"


  113.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:05 pm
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I sense a Jimmie Johnson-dominated race tonight...


  114.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:09 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Just got back from my neighbor's cookout and had 2 hamburgers and 2 hot
dogs for luck for the Blue #2 car. Considering my relative skinniness
(6'2" but only 176 lbs), that wasn't easy. I have to work tonight, but
where I am stationed hopefully I can watch most of it.


  115.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:11 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

1995 Subaru WRX STi, as I said on the Indianapolis 500 comments page,
Dario Franchitti knew that Takuma Sato, an inexperienced driver that had
never been in position to win a race, much less the Indianapolis 500,
might make such a move, so he gave Sato enough rope to hang himself,
which he promptly did.

And in retrospect, should it be a surprise that Dario Franchitti won
this Indianapolis 500? It would figure that in a race in which drafting
was such a major factor, that someone with a lot of drafting experience
would come out the winner, and to the best of my knowledge, Franchitti
was the only driver n the race that had raced at NASCAR's highest level,
which included a start in the 2008 Daytona 500. Franchitti used that
experience to his advantage, even when he got stuck back in the pck
after his pit road misadventure on his first pit stop.


  116.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:14 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Also, I'm going to predict this race will have less lead changes than
the Indy 500 did.

And Danica will finish ahead of Jeff Gordon for the third time so far
this year.


  117.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:33 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well, Schroeder51, the prediction of the 600 having fewer lead changes
was, quite frankly, not a difficult one to make, considering that there
were 35 at Indy.

And there was no problem at the start, though Almirola is now beginning
to drop back. The saving thing with him is that he's a driver not known
for charging, but rather a driver known for conserving his equipment.

And the start-and-parks are starting, as Josh Wise has parked car #26.


  118.   Rusty posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:39 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Did Darrell seriously say what I thought he said about Biffle's engine?

"If she blows, she blows, cuz he ain't gonna stroke it" ROFL I wonder if
he says this stuff on purpose.


  119.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:44 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Sheesh...stuff like that is why I've never liked DW as a commentator. He
almost feels like a character from a rejected FOX primetime cartoon.


  120.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:47 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Wow...took them 45 laps to talk about Danica? That must be a record for
a race or something!


  121.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:49 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Charlotte Motor Speedway has found a Patriotic way to cover Empty seats.


  122.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:58 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

2012: The Year of Single-File Racing.


  123.   18fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 6:59 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

What is with the SHR cars at Charlotte these last two weeks. They have
been out to lunch in both the All-Star race and early in the 600 so far.


  124.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.27.2012 - 7:00 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

@122

In NASCAR...


  125.   New 14&88 Fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 7:32 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Dear Brad...

Learn to come off pit road without speeding


Ambrose and Biffle look like they have the cars to beat so far, Shrub
just took the lead though and the 48 is lurking in fourth.


  126.   Daniel posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:12 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (1)

I'm done with this race. Two BS debris cautions and Kvapil barely
scraping the wall bringing out a caution, fed up with this crap.


  127.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well Brad, that is 4 of the 12 races you have messed up in the pits.
That is 1/3 of the races. You have taken June's title.


  128.   Jarrett88fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:17 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

18fan,

The SHR cars are in test mode at this point in the season. I fully
expect Stewart and Newman to start running better around Daytona. For
Newman, he needs to put together some consistent finishes to stay ahead
of the one win drivers. I can see someone breaking out and winning 2-3
races in the summer and making the Chase ala Brad K. in 2011.


  129.   18fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:24 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I did somewhat expect that with Stewart, but Newman has been so bad
recently and is in a very precarious points position, the #39 team can't
really afford to be in full blown test mode.

I think you're going to have to beat that 16 car to win this race. He's
dialed in and can run the bottom or the top very well.


  130.   jabber1990 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:45 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

are all 3 Roush cars running the same paintjob?


  131.   18fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:48 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Fastenal is sponsoring all three Roush cars, but the paint schemes are
all slightly different.


  132.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 8:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Glad to see so many patriotic paint schemes, but it is making the cars
hard to pick out. Hell, the Miller car and the Budweiser cars are
indistinguishable.


  133.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 9:04 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Make that 5 pit road mishaps in 12 races.


  134.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 9:13 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Not to beat this "Danica is doing a great job of gaining experience"
thing into the ground, but how is it helping your learning going so
slow? Seems like you would learn more going fast, then crashing as
opposed to just puttering around. Cause if she ever does go fast (which
looks unlikely, but still) she will have to learn all over again, wheras
the other way you just have to learn not to make the mistake.


  135.   Mr X posted:
  05.27.2012 - 9:29 pm
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Pretty decent race so far, this new package is definitely an improvement.


  136.   Rusty posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:00 pm
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I'm not really having a good time with this race, I've been chatting
with people while it is on the background instead. Charlotte is just a
lame track anymore.


  137.   New 14&88 Fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:16 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Kasey Kahne gets his first win for Hendrick, it was only a matter of time!


  138.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:16 pm
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2006 2008 2012. Horses for courses. Kasey is a 3 time 600 winner. Pretty
rare company I'd imagine. He is totally making the cha$e.


  139.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:19 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Since that is KK 1st win for HMS, i wounder now if he'll set the world
on fire like some people have been saying other forums. It was only a
matter of time before he would win.


  140.   18fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:24 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Kasey Kahne and Kenny Francis did the best job of keeping up with the
racetrack and that's why they won the race, their 3rd 600 win together.
While Biffle and Kyle Busch, who were both awesome in the first half of
the race, struggled, Kahne and Denny Hamlin really came on. Denny
finished 2nd and Kyle finished 3rd for the second consecutive day and
this was Denny's fourth consecutive 2nd place finish with 2nd place
finishes in both races at Darlington and this weekend.


  141.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:26 pm
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Well, Kasey Kahne joins the exclusive list of 3-time winners of the
Coca-Cola 600, joining Buddy Baker, David Pearson, Bobby Allison,
Darrell Waltrip, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., Jeff Gordon, and Jimmie Johnson as
3-time winners of this event. Waltrip is the only man ever to win this
race more than three times. And Kahne shattered the 600-mile record by
averaging 155.696 MPH, over 4 MPH better than Bobby Labonte's 1995
record. Not to toot my own horn, but that's another one of my pre-season
predictions to come true, because I felt that Hendrick Motorsports and
Kasey Kahne were a natural glove-to-hand fit for Charlotte.

And speaking of Hendrick Motorsports, we saw in that final run just how
flat slow Jeff Gordon's car is. It was competitve when the sun was out
and the track was slower, but when the track got faster, his lack of
speed began to show.He was able to take seventh away from Kevin Harvick
at the end, but bordering on the top five may be as good as it gets for
him this year unless his cars get faster.

How fast was the race pace? Even with about three phantom debris
cautions, they lapped up through tenth place once, 13th place twice, and
into the top 20 three times, which is virtually unheard-of in today's
NASCAR.


  142.   NazRacePhan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:28 pm
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First win for Quaker State as a primary since 4/22/90, at North
Wilkesboro when Brett Bodine won his first (and only) career win!

(and only 4th win over all for Quaker State)


  143.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:32 pm
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Well, I can no longer say I was at Quaker State's last Cup win as a
primary sponsor.


  144.   Mr X posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:36 pm
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Cjs I was watching Jeff Gordons lap times late in the going on
NASCAR.com and although the live leaderboard isn't particularly up to
date, Jeff in the last 10 laps was running laps only a tenth off Kasey
Kahne, and faster then everyone else in the lead lap. Despite what Fox
would have you believe the Gordon vs Harvick battle for 7th place in the
last 5 laps wasn't really a battle, Jeff was 8th running laps 2-3 tenths
faster then Harvick, and drove around him like he was tied to a stump,
Jeff ran down Harvick from 1.5-2 seconds back in the last 10 laps, if
the race was a few laps longer he would've caught Dale Jr aswell. Jeff
Gordon had an excellent long run car all night long and they did one of
the best jobs all night keeping up with the track. Jeff drove from
midpack to the top 10 twice under the sun and moon. Without the early
pitstop issue that was an easy top 5.


  145.   10andJoe posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:51 pm
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Not a bad run for Landon Cassill. I was hoping a caution would come out
when he was 11th last car on the lead lap so he could pit and stay on
the lead lap, but alas. Still, not bad.

And to those who said Kenny Francis was overrated and holding Kahne
back, and a change was needed before Kahne could do anything with the 5
car, I have your crow right here. I've heard it tastes good with some
ketchup.


  146.   Daniel posted:
  05.27.2012 - 10:59 pm
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Well, the #95 & #98 did attempt to go the fuel distance. Too bad
mechanical issues kept them from completing the race.


  147.   MStall41 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:05 pm
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NASCAR HAS to figure out a way to bring drafting and slingshots back
into play at the 1.5 milers like Charlotte. this race would have been
1000x more interesting if they actually could have pulled up on cars and
used slingshots. Probably just wishful thinking...


  148.   Neal posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:10 pm
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NASCAR's gotta do something. I'm tired of hearing the latest excuse du
jour "the races are clean, it's a purist's dream." BS. The races this
year have been even more anti-climactic than usual.

I mean c'mon the Indy 500 had THREE lead changes in the final 10 laps
and there could've been a 4th or even a 5th if Sato hadn't gone kamikaze
into Turn 1 on the last lap. The only time you get lead changes in the
last 10 laps of a Sprint Cup Race is if there's a freakin
Green-White-Checkers.

Sure it's clean but the racing has sucked serious ass this year.


  149.   MStall41 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:13 pm
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@Neal Its all about the draft. Whenever NASCAR pulls its head out of its
ass and figures out how to lessen aero dependency and bring back
drafting at cookie cutters, we will be back in business. Until then, the
high drama races will only take place at plate tracks, some short
tracks, and road courses.


  150.   Dave#38fan posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:14 pm
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well, that's interesting. the people that said mcdowell would stark and
park a few laps in as usual were wrong, and the people who said he would
run the full race were wrong, he ran a little over halfway. for what
it's worth he was ahead of danica for most of the time he was on the
track. princess slowdaddy was outraced by a phil parsons car.

and as expected he got ZERO airtime but great run for landon cassill.
the team said it would take them about 10-12 races to get the kinks
worked out because they got such a late start, that may be coming true.


  151.   Eric posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:17 pm
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Neal,

you have to blame that on the points system NASCAR uses besides the
chase. The really isn't a lot of difference in points for a position.
There actually is even less reward to be aggressive to get a position on
the final laps in terms risk and reward compare to 2010.


  152.   MStall41 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

@151 BK is finally coming around, and Landon's 83 team is performing at
a level where they can be considered a "legit, competitive team". They
have surpassed FRM, Germain, and TBR as far as I'm concerned. However,
it is clear that Landon is the focus at BK, as the 93 is usually way off
the 83 most weekeneds performance-wise


  153.   Eric posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:25 pm
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NASCAR did try to fix the aero dependency with the announcement they
had. I don't know if you can completely judge the new package before
Pocono and Michigan since those two tracks also have the shark fin
besides the new one and half mile rule change.

The other thing to look at is the tires don't wear out a like they did
years ago either on most tracks.


  154.   Neal posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:26 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

@MStall41 - I'm completely in agreement with you, they need a softer
tire compound and a chassis that put a premium on race setup and not
aero, but NASCAR's brain trust has the collective IQ of a drooling idiot
so we don't have to worry about that happening anytime soon.


  155.   MStall41 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:30 pm
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A softer tire compound would do wonders to tighten up the field. But
just look at the Indy 500 today. Not totally comparable, but you can see
how a draftier aero package makes for better racing. You could have that
in NASCAR too with some adjustments to the noses and rear spoilers. The
shark fin, by the way, is not helping at all either. NASCAR's problems
on the 1.5 milers are actually relatively easy to fix, I'm just not sure
the braintrust at Daytona Beach is aware of the simplicity.

They claim they are working on aero dependency in the 2013 cars, but I
highly doubt it will be a big enough change to bring back drafting like
I envisioned


  156.   Brad24 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:36 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Glad to see Gordon get a much needed top 10. Maybe this is a sign of
things to come. The season ain't lost just yet!

Also glad to see Kasey Kahne get his first of many wins at HMS.

To the ones who keep saying that NASCAR needs to do something about
these long green flag runs we've been seeing all year: Suppose if NASCAR
takes action and starts throwing random "debris cautions." Will you
complain about it then? I'd say chances are pretty good that you will.

I actually think it's a good thing that we're seeing more green flag
racing. For 2 reasons.

1. It shows who has the best car and if everything goes right, that best
car most of the time will win.

2. It shows that the drivers are using their heads a little more than
they used to. You're not seeing as many drivers wreck each other b/c of
bonehead moves.


  157.   RaceFanX posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:38 pm
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There were no real crashes over the entire 600-mile distance of this race.


  158.   Neal posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:38 pm
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@Brad24 - Please...enough with the excuses. Nobody can pass the f*&^ing
leader because of the aero push. 2nd place could be 2-3 tenths per lap
faster than the leader but when he gets right up to him his momentum
stops because of this horseshit excuse for a chassis.


  159.   Brad24 posted:
  05.27.2012 - 11:56 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

@Neal- You say it's all b/c of the chassis and yet I'm the one making
excuses? Yeah ok.

Did it ever occur to you that the 2nd place driver uses his stuff up
while running down the leader? If he falls back and can't catch back up,
is it the chassis fault then?


  160.   1995z71 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:06 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

After this race all 3 Roush drivers have exactly 8 Top 10s. This ties
them with David Ragan's 2011 Top 10 total while driving for Roush.


  161.   10andJoe posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:15 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

#24 sponsor: Drive to End Hunger/Chase AARP Visa
#30 sponsor: Red Rocks Cafe
#34 sponsor: Scorpion Truck Bed Liners
#42 sponsor: Target/Clorox


  162.   OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:16 am
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This all goes back to two things that can be quick fixes. The first
thing has to be the Lucky-Dog and Wavearound procedures. With those two
rules, coupled with the obvious "debris" cautions, what's the point in
driving hard? Driving hard to stay on the lead lap is insignificant
because the drivers knows that an inevitable "debris" caution will fly
and he will either stay out and get his lap back, or he will be in
position to get the free pass. There's no incentive for a driver to
fight hard for the first 80 percent of the race because of that. From
then on, it's about getting tires and track position, not racing your
way through the field. The next problem is the tires. You have some guys
laying down qualifying laps every single lap and the tire never gives
up. It used to be different. You would have guys use up the equipment
for the first half of the run, allowing others to drive back up through
the field with better tire management. You don't get that anymore, either.


  163.   Eric posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:21 am
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While I mentioned about tires, NASCAR did decrease the fuel cell from 22
gallons to 18 gallons in the name of getting pit crews more involved
with the outcome of the race based on what I recalled on NASCAR
mentioning why they made that change. That change also did play a part
of why tires don't wear out like they used to besides the compound.

NASCAR had issues with mile and half tracks for a while from an aero
standpoint and they claimed the COT would fix Aero push. It didn't.
NASCAR had aero issues dating pack to the back to the mid to late 1990's
with it starting with the Brickyard 400 in 1995.


  164.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:28 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Mr X (#144), Gordon was running closer to the leaders' pace near the end
of a fuel run, but that's not when the actual speed of the car is going
to show up. The speed of the car is going to show up in the first few
laps of a fuel run, not near the end of it. Early in a fuel run,
especially when it got cooler, his car, as it has been most of the year
on the big tracks, was horribly slow. In fact, within 10-12 laps of the
final green flag dropping, he was five seconds behind anyone on the same
lap he was on. The hotter and slicker the track was, the better he was
liable to be against his competition, which was when his car was at it's
best, because the track was slower. Darrell Waltrip even said before the
race started that Gordon's car was slow, which is why it dropped back so
fast when the green flag came out the last couple of times. Gordon's car
handles well, but it is slow. But Brad24, all Gordon can hope for right
now is bottom half of the top ten runs with an occasional top five
thrown in, because his car just isn't fast enough to run with the
leaders unless it's a hot day where speed isn't that important.

MStall41, how long have I been saying that NASCAR needs to dirty up the
cars to allow the kind of drafting that we saw at Indy today, or that
was seen on the mid-sized tracks in the 1970s and 80s, because I've been
saying that for nearly a year, so you're dead on the money there.

And Eric, you're missing the big thing about tires, and that is that
they don't have to run as long on a set of tires as they used to,
because they're only getting 70 miles on a tank of fuel, instead of
close to 100. In fact, they were running as far on a tank of fuel at the
Indianapolis 500 as they were at Charlotte, if not longer. As a result,
the drivers no longer have to manage their tires, because at about the
time that those that abuse their tires begin to pay the price, they have
to pit for fuel, so it doesn't matter whether their tires begin to fall
off, because they'll just get new ones when they have to stop for fuel.
The shorter fuel runs are a big reason why there are so many long green
flag runs, because the problems that used to be encountered at the end
of a fuel run, don't have the time to show themselves, because they can
no longer go that far on a tank of fuel. In effect, the experience that
drivers like Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, and others have in
terms of being able to save their tires, is no longer of any use to
them, because thedrivers no longer have to conserve their tires due to
the shorter fuel runs.


  165.   Eric posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:29 am
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The lucky dog is a must because race teams can't race to the caution
anymore. Racing to the Caution actually causes safety problems to a car
that is involved a wreck after the yellow comes out or a yellow comes
out because a car stalls.

The fall 2003 2003 Sylvania 300 was the icing of the cake why there is
no more racing to the Caution. Dale Jarrett bought a caution in that
race with his car stalling and Casey Mears full speed almost hit Dale's
car.


  166.   Eric posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:34 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

cjs3872,

Why are you claiming that I missing the big thing about tires since I
already mentioned on post 163 about fuel cells having 18 gallons of fuel
instead 22 gallons as one of the reasons for lack of tire wear?


  167.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:56 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Eric, I wrote that before post #163 was put up, but finished it after it
post #163 was up, but I started writing that post before post #163 was
put up.


  168.   LordLowe posted:
  05.28.2012 - 1:28 am
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CJS: The most significant change that needs to be made to NASCAR is to
its poor blundering Leadership once that change is made and NASCAR has
that Strong Commanding Direction in place then I bet you will see the
changes to the cars that you have strongly suggested to make the racing
better.


  169.   palo_s posted:
  05.28.2012 - 1:29 am
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#134:
More laps, more experience..


  170.   Ed posted:
  05.28.2012 - 7:47 am
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#164: What race were YOU watching? Gordon was running similar laps to
the leaders the whole night, you just can't do shit about it if you're
stuck back in the pack


  171.   Baker posted:
  05.28.2012 - 7:50 am
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Nice to see Kasey get a win. Still hate that it was Hendrick, but bc it
was Kasey I'm okay with it. Sucks what happened for Stewart but I'm not
mad at Keselowski it was pure put road chaos that caused that and I'm
sure his spotter was sleeping as usual. I like Kese but it seems like
his spotters have been among the worst for a few years now.


  172.   Anonymous posted:
  05.28.2012 - 8:06 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

as usual on previous occasions, the nascar race doesn't deliver much on
the memorial day weekend of racing. the worst of the three. nascar why
do you suck so much


  173.   Baker posted:
  05.28.2012 - 8:15 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I thought it was a great race and the 4 best cars went 1-4 so I don't
get the flack for this race.


  174.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  05.28.2012 - 8:26 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Before we start knocking each other about this, remember that cjs is
also part of my Hendrick-has-it-in-for-Gordo conspiracy. Why else would
a guy with more talent in his pinky than half of the series combined
struggle so much? Ganassi seems to have it in for his guys too; seems
like he's deliberately driving his NASCAR program into the hill outside
turn 2. If you know history, you know what driver's death I am referencing.

cjs, I think Jeff has inherited Tim Richmond's team. :[


  175.   AFrame43 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 10:54 am
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@163:

I think that says more about Casey Mears' driving ability than anything
else.


  176.   Woodbridge posted:
  05.28.2012 - 11:20 am
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I'm upset Ambrose had issues.. he could legitimately be a Chase
contender if he didn't have such bad luck..


  177.   Eric posted:
  05.28.2012 - 11:38 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

AFrame43,

I was not even talking about Casey Mears on post 163 or talking about
the 2007 Coco-Cola 600.

I was talking Areo push, fuel cells, and tire wear and I did not use any
race as an example.


  178.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 11:40 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Ed (#170), Jeff Gordon was ran better early n the race because the track
was hot and slick and speed didn't matter as much as handling did, and
his cars have handled pretty well the entire season, as exemplified by
how well he did at Bristol (before he was taken out) and Martinsville.
But when they've ben to the tracks where speed is important, his cars
have been about 2 MPH slow all year, and when the track cooled down,
that lack of speed showed, especially compared to ther leaders. You
don't have to have a lot of speed to run in the second half of the top
ten, and that's where he ran most of the race. To run seventh through
12th, all you need is a good handling car, speed is unimportant to run
in the second half of the top ten. Gordon's cars have lacked the the 2
MPH he needs to run with the leaders all year on the high-speed tracks
(possibly a residual effect of his roll-over crash in the Shootout?),
but he can run in the second half of the top ten, because you don't need
speed to run there.

And NicoRosbergFan, the reason I believed two months ago that Gordon
would have a bad season was that Hendrick was putting all his focus back
into the #5 car, which is the organization's flagship team, as well as
trying to get Dale, Jr. back into victory lane, and that means that
focus had to be taken away from somewhere, and that somewhere is the #24
team. but now that the #5 car has reached victory lane again, don't be
surprised if some attention is put back on the #24 team. The increased
focus on the #5 car is one of the main reasons why the #24 car has been
slow all year on the high-speed tracks. Now that Kasey has broken
through, I wouldn't be surprised if attention in the 5/24 shop goes to
helping the #24 car get that extra 1-2 MPH of speed that it's been
missing all year. If that happens, Gordon will be able to run with the
leaders again on the high-speed tracks.


  179.   10andJoe posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:00 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

>However, it is clear that Landon is the focus at BK, as the 93 is
usually way off the 83 most weekeneds performance-wise

The odd thing is, the 93 is ahead of the 83 in owners points.


  180.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:18 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Well, what is it that I have said about crown jewel races, and people
trying too hard to win them, as well as guys knowing how to win races,
and the fact that some athletes can handle the big occasions, and others
can not. What happened on the start of the final lap of the Indianapolis
500, perhaps more than any other time in any other race I've ever seen,
proves my point."

Few thoughts...

One being that the "crown jewel" races in NASCAR are completely
different than the Indy 500 is to IndyCar. The Indy 500 IS IndyCar. The
Coca Cola 600, Spring Talladega race, and whatever else isn't looked at
with the same magnitude by NASCAR drivers as Indy drivers look at the
Indy 500. But certainly, some drivers are much better at handling big
pressure than others.

Another thought is that Takuma Sato has a reputation for being
overaggressive and making questionable moves. Sure, he was trying to win
the Indy 500, but he has a history of making questionable moves no
matter how big or small the race is. I don't think it truly proves that
he made that questionable move simply because of it being the Indy 500,
because this isn't a driver that's always conservative and "too solid".
It was a situation of Takuma Sato unfortunately living up to fans'
expectations. And that's a shame, I was really pulling for him to become
the first driver from Japan to win the Indy 500.


  181.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:25 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"I suppose Dario didn't give Carpenter and Andretti enough room
too...oh, wait..."

It was somewhat hard to tell with the replay's camera angle, but it
seemed pretty plausible that Sato had to go under the white line to
avoid contact with Dario when he made that aggressive move. This is a
situation where I couldn't *completely* blame Sato, and I certainly
couldn't completely blame Dario. I, too, thought Sato should have waited
to make the move... but I wonder if Dario would've just been just as
defensive and we possibly would've had the same thing in T3. Although,
it seemed that the cars were more glued to the track in T3 than they
were in T1


  182.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:32 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"He was able to take seventh away from Kevin Harvick at the end, but
bordering on the top five may be as good as it gets for him this year
unless his cars get faster."

Considering that he's run races this season with clearly top 5 cars,
albeit with rough luck tarnishing those finishes, I think they'll manage
to have races better than bordering on the top 5.


  183.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"Its all about the draft. Whenever NASCAR pulls its head out of its ass
and figures out how to lessen aero dependency and bring back drafting at
cookie cutters, we will be back in business."

The more power you make, the less draft will be a factor. Personally I'd
rather have that way. Let the wheelmen wheel their cars rather than have
to play games with aero because it's a disadvantage to lead.

So the Nationwide cars have very little power in comparison to the Cup
cars, and draft is a huge factor at cookie cutters... so how did you
like the Nationwide race?


  184.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 12:43 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

In regards to Jeff Gordon's speed... isn't it a good possibility
Gustafson had the car set up for long runs rather than short runs,
rather than the car simply being slow? I mean, it's definitely a setup
deal. Everyone expected the race to be very green, and I'm sure they
were trying to nail the long run setup... but obviously the balance of
the setup wasn't quite right if they gave away too much early.


  185.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 1:45 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Well, that's right, The Truth, but what good does a long run setup do
when you're losing 10 seconds to the leader on the first 15-20 laps of a
fuel run and then have to stop in another 25 laps for more fuel, in
which case he would lose another 10 seconds the first 15-20 laps of that
fuel run. And that's compounded by the fact that they can't go that far
on fuel any more, so the more pit stops you make, the farther behind you
get. In fact, the best that car ran during the entire race was when they
skipped a pit stop, which with the way their luck has been this year, of
course caught up to them because they pitted while running fourth, and
the caution came out the next lap. And how on earth Darrell Waltrip
could say that was a good break is beyond me, because that was just
another terrible break. Sure, there was a slight bit of good fortune in
that his was the first car a lap down at the moment of caution, but how
that can be described as a good break is beyond me, because it dropped
him from fourth to 25th.

And later on in the race, he was running sixth, nearly a half lap behind
the fifth place car, and was still losing nearly a fifth of a second a
lap to the top five. So if what you're saying is true, Alan Gustafson is
strategizing poorly, but then again, we are talking about Alan
Gustafson, one of the poorer strategists among the crew chiefs in
NASCAR. If Gordon's car does have potential speed that's not being used,
then that's the fault of the crew chief.

I know that if I was a crew chief, especially on the high speed tracks,
with the exception of Atlanta, I wouldn't worry about a short run vs.
long run setup, since the most I can get out of a tank of fuel is 75
miles, 80 at the absolute most. I would just try to go with the fastest,
most comfortable setup I can use for a particular driver. Now a setup
for longer runs is more useful at the shorter tracks where you have to
run more laps on a tank of fuel before pitting, even with the decreased
fuel run capacity.


  186.   John Royal posted:
  05.28.2012 - 3:13 pm
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Wow that was lousy race. I fell asleep at 30 to go. Woke up when Kahne
was doing burnouts, I didn't miss anything.


  187.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.28.2012 - 3:17 pm
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Yeah I mean if that's what the 24 team was going for, certainly the
early run speed needs to be more in-range with his competitors because
you don't wanna lose too much, although maybe it's just something they
were fighting in the setup that they had trouble fixing. I'd be
interested to know how much Kenny Francis and Alan Gustafson work with
each other, and I'd also be interested in knowing what types of handling
issues Jeff Gordon fought yesterday in different stints of green runs.


  188.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 3:40 pm
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You might be on to something with Kenny Francis because when Ray
Evernham made Francis Kasey Kahne's crew chief in 2006, his other teams
went downhill at about that time and really were not that competitve
after that, so maybe the reason that Kahne was outperforming his
teammates was the fact that Francis may not have gotten along with the
other crew chiefs, which in turn could've affected the performance of
the other teams' cars. Just look at what happened to Jeremy Mayfield and
the #19 car from 2005 to 2006. In 2005, Mayfield and the #19 team was a
Chase contender and a race winner. In 2006, the year Francis joined
Kahne, Mayfield couldn't even get out of his own way and lost his ride
there, and Elliott Sadler didn't do much better in the #19 car. The same
thing happened at Red Bull Racing last year, though in defense of Brian
Vickers, he was coming back from heart surgery. And when Francis left
what's now Richard Petty Motrsports, all their teams began to run
better, which culminated last week in them sweeping the front row. Could
it be that Francis, much like Chad Knaus, just doesn't care to get along
with the other crew chiefs at the organizations where he's worked? If
that is so, then that just backs up my point when I said that Hendrick
should never have allowed Francis to move with Hendrick with Kahne.


  189.   Anonymous posted:
  05.28.2012 - 4:04 pm
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Dale Jr is the Ryan Leaf of NASCAR


  190.   LordLowe posted:
  05.28.2012 - 4:07 pm
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I wonder how long it will be before Jeff Gordon snaps and starts blaming
everyone for his lousy season.


  191.   Anonymous posted:
  05.28.2012 - 4:08 pm
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Joey Logano ran so great in his JGR Toyota. *Sarcasm* Teammates finish
2-3 and Logano's average running position was 25th.


  192.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 4:58 pm
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#189, is anyone truly surprised by that? I know I'm not. Logano is just
a guy that tries to get to the finish of races, instead of racing in
them, which results in sub-standard runs in a car that should be closer
to the front. And what makes such a run so bad is that if you weren't in
the top 20, you were lapped at least three times. In fact, David Ragan
was more competitive than Logano was before he went out, and the team
Ragan drives for is a bottom-of-the-barrel team, while Logano drives a
car that twice won the championship in the hands of his predecessor. In
fact, Landon Cassill and Casey Mears, the 2007 600 winner, alo ran
better for bottom-of-the-barrel teams than did Logano. That's why I
think there will be a change in the #20 car next year, and I think Kurt
Busch is the driver Joe Gibbs will be after. After all, Kurt already
drives for (and has won for) younger brother Kyle in the Nationwide Series.

I would be a little surprised if Kurt is not in the #20 car next year,
and shocked if Logano is in the #20 next year, because he surely doesn't
deserve such a ride. Not with his pitiful performances, or lack thereof,
in the past couple of years.


  193.   18fan posted:
  05.28.2012 - 5:06 pm
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While Kenny Francis might not work well with other crew chiefs, he and
Kasey Kahne are one of the top driver-crew chief pairings in the sport,
so I do think it was a good decision to keep them together when they
moved to Hendrick.


  194.   Talon64 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 5:37 pm
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Kasey Kahne gets his 13th career Sprint Cup Series victory and 1st with
Hendrick Motorsports. It's the 3rd different team he's won with
(Evernham/GEM/RPM, Red Bull Racing and now HMS) and the 3rd different
manufacturer (Dodge, Toyota and Chevy). He's the 3rd driver to win on
their 300th career start, joining Ned Jarrett and Rusty Wallace.

It's Kahne's 4th career Charlotte win, his most at any track and which
ties him for 7th all time in Charlotte Cup wins. It's his first win
there in 8 races, but his 4 wins and 3 Coke 600's since 2006 lead all
drivers. It's his 7th top 5 in 17 starts (12.7 avg fin).

Kahne also extends his career-best top 10 streak to 6 in a row, during
which only Kyle Busch has scored more points (240 vs. 237).

Denny Hamlin's 6th top 5 in 12 races this season already tops the 5 he
had in all of 2011. He only had 2 top 2 finishes last year, compared to
4 this year. It's the first time Hamlin's had back-to-back runner-up
finishes since Bristol and Martinsville in March 2009. It's his 13th
career runner-up finish.

It's Hamlin's best career finish in 14 Charlotte starts and just his 2nd
top 5 (15.0 avg fin). But it's his 4th straight top 10 there.

Kyle Busch picks up his 4th consecutive top 5 finish, his longest such
streak since a career-high 5 in a row in 2008. He only had 1 top 5 in
the first 8 races of the season. It's his 7th top 5 at Charlotte, his
most at any track without a win (15.9 avg fin in 17 starts).

Greg Biffle gets his series-leading 7th top 5 of the season (3 in all of
2011) and 4th in the last 6 races. It's just his 4th top 5 at Charlotte
in 19 starts (17.1 avg fin) but his 2nd in the last 4 races, during
which he's led 323 of his 366 career laps led at Charlotte.

Brad Keselowski picks up his 3rd top 10 in the last 4 races, during
which he's gone from 15th to 11th in the standings. It's his 4th top 5
and 6th top 10 of the season; at this point last year he only had 1 top
10, 3rd at Darlington. It's his first top 10 in 6 Charlotte starts (16.5
avg fin).

Dale Earnhardt Jr. leads the series with 9 top 10's this season, after
having 12 in all of 2011. 7 have come in the last 8 races. It's his 11th
top 10 in 26 Charlotte starts (18.8 avg fin) but just his 2nd in the
last 8 races.

Jeff Gordon gets just his 3rd top 10 of the season, but it puts him one
back of becoming the 5th driver to reach 400 for their career. It's his
21st top 10 in 39 career Charlotte starts (15.7 avg fin) and first in 4
races.

Kevin Harvick has now gone 7 straight races without a top 5, and has
just 4 in his last 34 starts. But he did get his 4th straight top 10 at
Charlotte, after going the previous 13 without one (7 in 23 starts, 18.1
avg fin).

Carl Edwards is tied for 2nd in the series with 8 top 10's this season,
but hasn't finished better than 5th and only has 2 top 5's (6 at this
point last year). It's his 2nd straight top 10 at Charlotte after going
4 straight without one (5th straight top 20 finish) and his 9th in 15
starts (12.3 avg fin).

Despite finishing 1 lap down, Matt Kenseth picked up his 3rd straight
top 10 and 7th in the last 9 races. It's the 3rd time in the last 7
Charlotte races he's finished 10th, but has 6 top 10's in that span.
It's his 14th top 10 in 26 career Charlotte starts (14.2 avg fin).

In his last 3 Charlotte starts, Jimmie Johnson has led just 1 race for 1
lap. He'd led 18 consecutive races for 1,385 laps prior to that. He's
also gone 3 straight Charlotte races without a top 10 for the first time
in his career and has just 1 win in the last 13 races.


  195.   Rob posted:
  05.28.2012 - 7:36 pm
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The hemroid 6,000 went down without a problem. It was the fastest in
NASCAR history. I can just hear the NASCAR only fans running for the
doors now. This is real racing, theyre not wrecking every 10 laps, let
the fastest car win, see how big of a gap you can create and how many
cars you can put a lap down. They just need to shorten it, I left for an
hour and when I turned it back on they were only about half way. Shorten
the races and dont throw so many fake debris cautions everytime JR. is
about to get lapped and this will be a respectable series. And for
everyone that says F1 is boring, the margin of victory for the Monaco
Grand Prix was small. The top 4 cars were seperated by only a little
over a second. Formula 1 has closer racing than NASCAR now. NASCAR is a
manufactured as pro wrestling now, and most of the remaining fans watch
it out of habbit.


  196.   Eric posted:
  05.28.2012 - 7:38 pm
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cjs3872,

the Anonymous you replied to was 189, not 191. I know you meant 191.
Those two anonymous seem to be different people.

The Anonymous from 189 seems to be the person from the Dale Jr. page on
this site that is known to bash Dale Jr even if he does well in a race.
That person even types NASCAR is going to fix races for Dale Jr. to win
based on what that typed in the past.


  197.   Spen posted:
  05.28.2012 - 9:18 pm
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Cjs: "I wouldn't be surprised if attention in the 5/24 shop goes to
helping the #24 car get that extra 1-2 MPH of speed that it's been
missing all year." I thoroughly agree. Once we move into the TNT/ESPN
pre-chase run, the teams that are all but locked into the chase
(including Johnson and Junior's) will move into test mode, opening doors
for teams like Gordon's to finally break through. I expect most of
Hendrick's focus to be on the 5/24 garage, and since Kasey is in a good
enough posistion points-wise that he could conciveably race his way into
the top ten, Gordon's is the one that would be more likely to go for the
win. (My personal prediction is that he'll win one of the Pocono races,
and knock Kentucky off of his 'never won' list.) So long as Kasey keeps
moving up, and Newman's continues to drop (which I firmly suspect. SHR
is bottom-priority right now, and Newman's a probable lame duck), it
should be enough for Gordon to get into the chase via the wild card.
Which would allow Hendrick to finally get all three cars into the chase
in one year. (Once making the chase, Gordon will proceed to do
absolutely nothing, but at least he won't have his worst points finish
ever.)


  198.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.28.2012 - 9:41 pm
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Eric, when I posted that comment about Joey Logano and the #20 car and
their potential futures, the anonymous poster that commented was in post
#189, but as you astutely mentioned, that post is now #191.

And Spen, I do think that Gordon's car wil pick up some speed now, and
Pocono, Daytona, and Indy would be likely places for him to win at, as
well as the road courses, if he can get back on his game there, which
has been missing for several years. And another Gordon win at Indy,
which nearly happened last year, will be a moment in motorsports in this
country that would be unprecedented, because that would be his fifth win
there, which to this day is an unaccomplished feat. A fifth Gordon win
at Indy might just be what the Brickyard 400, and quite possibly NASCAR,
needs at this time. But you're wrong about one thing. You say that if
Newman fades and Gordon gets hot that it would put all THREE Hendrick
cars in the Chase. It can't put all three Hendrick cars in the Chase,
because Hendrick has FOUR cars in his stable.

And Newman might just fade out of the picture, but it's not because of
priority. Stewart-Haas Racing, as a group, is struggling mightily.
Everyone wants to bag on Danica Patrick for racing just to finish,
finishing 30th in the 600, five laps down. Now I'm not a Danica fan and
never have been, but in fairness, Tony Stewart didn't fare too much
better than Danica did, as he was able to do no better than 25th, three
laps behind. Now Newman fared significantly better, finishing 14th,
though even he was two laps behind at the finish.

But perhaps another prediction of mine seems to be coming true at
Stewart-Haas Racing (and at Andretti Autosport). Remember when I said
that having Danica at Andretti Autosport was draining the team (and
possibly it's morale) and plunging it into the depths in IndyCar racing.
Well, Danica leaves Andretti Autosport and the fortunes there
immediately begin to improve. And Danica arrives at Stewart-Haas and the
fortunes there begin to spiral downward. Is it a coincidence? Perhaps,
but it is striking that wherever Danica goes, the fortunes of that team
begin to spiral downward almost immediately.


  199.   Spen posted:
  05.28.2012 - 10:32 pm
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I meant to say four, it just came out three. I shouldn't post while
making dinner.


  200.   Anonymous posted:
  05.28.2012 - 10:45 pm
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once again JGR teammates T5, logano, way far back, he has to go. end of
story. who gets the 20?


  201.   Red posted:
  05.28.2012 - 11:53 pm
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I think JGR should just fire Logano right now, and give their next
driver a chance to get acclimated to the team before a run at the title
in 2013. Trevor Bayne and Kurt Busch seem to be the front runners, but
whoever it turns out to be will be a step up from Logano. Remember how
bad the #11 was running in 2005 with Jason Leffler, then immediately
came to live when Hamlin took over? That's what JGR needs to do with the
#20. Now.

And cjs, I agree that Danica is a morale-killer for whatever team she's
been on. It must be frustrating as hell for the guys on the #10 team to
work their guts out building fast cars, only to watch their machine run
five laps down with an incompetent driver. I can't imagine it's easy to
stay motivated as a crewmen in that situation. I felt the same way when
Mears was at Hendrick and Ragan at Roush; the guys on those teams
must've been peeved watching their stablemates run circles around them
because their driver was inferior.


  202.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:19 am
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Unfortunately, Danica's runs in the #10, as slow as they've been, have
at least gotten it to the finish. David Reuitmann has neither been
competitve or finished races in that car. Now in fairness to Reutimann,
when he's in that car, Tommy Baldwin Racing runs the car, while when
Patrick runs it, Stewart-Haas Racing runs it. And we know that car's
going to be in the top 35 the rest of the year. The car 36th in owner's
points is the Wood Brothers' #21, nearly 50 points back, and that car's
not slated to run again until Michigan, so the top 35 is set for the
rest of the year. And I say again, as badly as Patrick ran at Charlotte,
Tony Stewart was just as bad, so all the heat for Danica's slow run at
Charlotte can't be blamed on her.

Now as for what's going to happen to the #20 car, I expect Gibbs to hire
a veteran driver if and when Logano's taen out of the seat, and in my
view, all signs point to Kurt Busch. He's got the experience, the
pedigree, and the connections. The only way I see Trevor Bayne in the
running is if Roush has to cut ties with him all together for lack of
sponsorship. He certainly would have the Wood Brothers' blessing, as
they should never run the full circuit again. Currently, he's still
Roush property, running the Wood Brothers' car on a sporadic basis. And
while Casey Mears was not as competitve as the other Hendrick drivers in
his two-year stay there as well as him not being near the top guy at
Childress the one year he was there, Mears did a lot better than
Logano's doing now, as he was actually competitve in a number of races.


  203.   LordLowe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:46 am
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Note to Stewart Haas Racing: If you want to get rid if Danica Patrick
take her to the Golden Gate Bridge.


  204.   Sean posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:52 am
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"Well, Danica leaves Andretti Autosport and the fortunes there
immediately begin to improve. And Danica arrives at Stewart-Haas and the
fortunes there begin to spiral downward. Is it a coincidence? Perhaps,
but it is striking that wherever Danica goes, the fortunes of that team
begin to spiral downward almost immediately."

Yeah, James Hinchcliffe is a billion times more entertaining (the most
entertaining driver to emerge in racing in the last decade? Maybe...),
more talented, and a real team player and class act (who else would have
taken Greg Moore's gloves into the cockpit with him, many years after
he's mostly been forgotten?). Having Marco and Danica BOTH there really
set that team back from its glory days of
Kanaan/Wheldon/Franchitti/Herta in 2003-2005. I think they can survive
just having Marco there, since he does have his moments... Hinchcliffe
is a giant breath of fresh air, yet FOR SOME REASON Danica is still
leading the massively-hyped GoDaddy fan vote...

I've noticed a generational shift in personalities. Back in the early to
mid '90s when NASCAR was starting to eclipse CART in ratings and
attendance (and finally was given equal media attention from
SportsCenter, etc... starting maybe around the inaugural Brickyard) one
major reason was that the IndyCar drivers at the time like Al Unser,
Jr., Michael Andretti, Jimmy Vasser, Paul Tracy, Emerson Fittipaldi,
Scott Goodyear, Robby Gordon, and Eddie Cheever were in my opinion all
massively egotistical. Some of those drivers I still liked despite that
(Vasser, Tracy, and Robby mainly), and there were a FEW who were
impossible to dislike like Gil de Ferran and Scott Pruett, but for the
most part, it became harder for a lot of those drivers to resonate when
compared to the kinds of drivers who dominated NASCAR in the '90s: Gant,
Davey, Irvan, Kulwicki and others were much more down-to-earth.

Now that the current generation of drivers for the most part does not
remember a time when IndyCar was ever ahead or even equal to NASCAR in
the national consciousness, the drivers emerging now in IndyCar are WAY
more likable and WAY more accessible, while NASCAR is full of annoying
prima donnas (again, I actually LIKE Kyle Busch and JPM despite not
having a great reason for it - well, I LOVED JPM's battle with Michael
Andretti at the end of the 2000 CART Michigan race, but he's getting
more annoying lately especially since he's now irrelevant, but most of
the more modern drivers like Hamlin, Harvick, Kurt Busch, and Edwards I
cannot stand).

If I'm not mistaken there was some weekend at Homestead circa 1999 that
CART shared with the trucks and Michael Andretti was going on and on
about how sharing a weekend with a support series was beneath the level
of professional drivers like him. Nowadays, it would totally flip. This
generation of NASCAR drivers is way more arrogant and way less likely to
engage with fans now that they have the star power. I personally don't
like Dario Franchitti and Helio Castroneves as I stated in the Indy 500
thread or Marco Andretti (WAY too much like his father, although I LOVED
Mario and John, whom everyone has underrated at every series he's ever
competed in for decades...) Dario and Helio are the last of the old CART
egos to me. But how many modern NASCAR drivers are as likable as Tony
Kanaan, Dan Wheldon (yeah I know), Will Power (I can see why people
might hate him for not being professional or something but I think he's
funny), Alex Tagliani, James Hinchcliffe, J.R. Hildebrand, Josef
Newgarden, Oriol Servia, Simon Pagenaud, and on and on and on... The
recent IndyCar drivers I HAVEN'T liked (Hornish and Danica mainly) have
been helping to weaken the personality pool in NASCAR.

The racing's been much better this year in IndyCar than in NASCAR (and I
would have totally said the opposite five years ago when every race was
a single file Penske/Ganassi parade...yeah, I know they've still won all
the races this year) despite WAY too many road/street courses this year
(11/16 is too much, but I know that's because ISC stopped grouping the
IndyCar races with Cup races on season ticket packages causing IndyCar
attendance to plummet when its cookie-cutter racing was as bad as it
ever was...) But this year's Long Beach race was about as good as street
course racing can possibly get...

Hell, I'm even FAR more enjoying watching Hinchcliffe's Inside IndyCar
videos on YouTube more than any current NASCAR races (I highly recommend
that video series, especially the ones where he tours Sarah Fisher's
shop with Josef Newgarden and where he, J.R. Hildebrand, and Charlie
Kimball lightheartedly make fun of fans who confuse them, and Hildebrand
was a VERY good sport not being pissed at Kimball for causing him to
wreck on the last lap at Indy). Hinchcliffe is even making Danica's
commercials watchable (something I didn't think was possible)!
Hinchcliffe (and Newgarden and Power and Pagenaud, whose "Talladega
Nights" spoof was hilarious) manages to be entertaining and likable and
not douchebags, something I can't really say for any Gen-Y driver in my
opinion.

Maybe racing series need to be marginal so the drivers don't develop the
colossal egos that many (but certainly not all) of the CART drivers
before the split did, or drivers in F1 and NASCAR largely have today...

Danica leaving seriously gave IndyCar life (especially with Hinchcliffe
being more likable than anyone else in major league racing today).
Hinchcliffe hasn't yet shown the ability to dominate or win yet, but
tied for second in points is better than Danica ever showed at any point
in seven years, and the fields are deeper now than they usually were
when Danica was driving too... Andretti Autosport made a brilliant move
there (Hinchcliffe would NOT have been my first choice, nor would Power
have been at Penske in 2009, which explains why no one is paying me to
make these decisions). If they really want to return to Penske/Ganassi
levels, you've got to dump the petulant offspring. Graham Rahal is
usually more mature than Marco (or Dale, Jr.) solely because Bobby Rahal
WANTED Graham to seek out his own path rather than driving for Dad...

But yeah, thumbs up there. I thought GoDaddy was just going to leave
when Danica made the switch after Dan's death. Hinchcliffe might not be
the BEST driver they could have picked (Oriol Servia blew him out last
year when they were teammates), but he is definitely the most marketable
and likable...


  205.   Sean posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:53 am
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"Unfortunately, Danica's runs in the #10, as slow as they've been, have
at least gotten it to the finish."

Yeah, she always finishes. She's the female Casey Mears (really, their
open wheel stats were very, very similar except that he grabbed one win
in Indy Lights and she didn't win in Toyota Atlantic). They both finish,
but they're seldom if ever competitive. Still, Hinchcliffe's now the
only driver to have completed every lap and scored a top ten in IndyCar
in every race this season, so maybe it's just the team in general being
reliable and too conservative (a la RCR...)


  206.   Sean posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:56 am
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"something I can't really say for any Gen-Y [NASCAR] driver in my opinion."

Forgot to insert that word in there...


  207.   10andJoe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:00 am
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>NASCAR is a manufactured as pro wrestling now

Aaaaaaaaaand at that point the Kook-O-Meter pegs.


  208.   Sean posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:08 am
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As for Kurt Busch, I just can't see it. Hamlin, Kyle, and Kurt? MAYBE
that triumvirate could sort of get along because two of them are
brothers and I don't really remember Hamlin feuding with either Busch
brother, but I don't think Gibbs has been that pleased with Kyle of
late. He is just barely having enough success for it to override his
on-track and off-track controversies, while Kurt had slightly less while
at Penske. Obviously, there's some line for the amount of crap a sponsor
will tolerate if the driver wins enough. Stewart in 2002 and Kyle last
year were on the right side of that line; Ernie Irvan in 1997 (he
basically got fired from Robert Yates for getting into a barroom brawl,
which NOBODY talks about now) and Kurt last year were on the wrong side.

Kurt is having trouble obtaining any sponsorship because sponsors are
avoiding him. He's had very few noteworthy runs for Finch (I was
actually EXCITED when he arrived at Finch because it's been a while
since we've seen how well a great driver could do in a crappy car...I've
been sick of every eventual superstar having a premier ride from day one
because it's unclear who actually earned it). He's still the best driver
available but his star power is fading and I can't imagine Gibbs wanting
three controversial drivers (any of which could explode at any moment,
and all of whom let their tempers get the worst of them...) As I said
above, I actually like Kyle. I enjoy watching him race and I think some
of the stuff he is criticized for gets way overblown (smashing the
guitar after winning that Busch race at Nashville - I actually thought
that was cool, and leaving the car at Texas in 2007 - I thought that was
more a misunderstanding than Kyle having a hissyfit), but I'll admit
that he does have his moments where he's a complete douche (punting
Casey Mears under the red flag in 2005 was his worst in my opinion). I
just don't see how it's more than Harvick, Edwards, Hamlin, Newman, or a
lot of other obnoxious drivers who are still considered marketable. But
Gibbs is probably going to want somebody more sponsor-friendly than Kurt
considering he has two other egos who struggle with their emotions who
are also in my opinion far superior drivers at this point. I think Kyle
and Denny are simply better than Kurt right now, and I also think Kurt
is WORSE at handling his emotions. Kurt would not be in the top three in
points if he was still at Penske, and Kyle and Denny would be doing
better in underfunded equipment than Kurt is now. Neither of them
explode quite like Kurt does, yet they still have lousy reputations. So
when Gibbs already has two controversial drivers, do you think he's
going to add somebody even more controversial on the downside of his
career to the third car, when Home Depot almost had Stewart (way better
than Kurt) fired in his prime? I don't. I know Logano is a bust but I
still kind of see him staying there. If not, they'll probably pick
somebody like Trevor Bayne or Ryan Newman (I guess I can see that one)
who wouldn't do as well as Kurt on the track, but would probably do
better with the sponsors. I can't see Kurt at Gibbs, even though he IS
the most talented driver available.


  209.   LordLowe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:13 am
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I will Not rest Until Dale Jr & Danica Are Banished from the world of
Auto Racing Forever.


  210.   Baker posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:46 am
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Anyone know anything about a rumor I heard on PRN about Jeff Burton
possibly out before the end of the year?


  211.   palo_s posted:
  05.29.2012 - 2:15 am
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#197, #201, #202
I think SHR had best start to season in history.. Yes, they had
struggled last two races, Texas and Kansas.. They struggle on 1.5-mile
ovals (except Las Vegas).. That is whole story..

Newman have only bad luck - Talladega - blown engine, Darlington -
collision with Kurt Busch..

#197
Andretti Autosport - They dominated in 2004 and 2005, because Ganassi
had troubles with Toyota engines (2004 championship - 10th Dixon, 11th
Manning, 2005 - 13th Dixon, 19th Briscoe, 21th Manning).. After season
2005 Toyota left IndyCar, Ganassi has Honda engines.. In 2006 - Ganassi
and Penske dominated, Andretti struggled (6th Kanaan, 7th Andretti, 8th
Franchitti, 12th Herta)..

This year - Chevrolet is better than Honda and once again Andretti is
better, because Ganassi have troubles with engines.. Dario struggled
(except Indy), Dixon still beats whole Andretti team in St. Pete and
Barber.. Ganassi had technical problems in Long Beach and Dixon had bad
luck in Sao Paulo.. But in Indianapolis Ganassi is back and Andretti had
typical Andretti race - some bad calls, two cars wrecked, two cars had
technical issues and GoDaddy driver finished race.. Nothing new, Ganassi
or Penske won race and Andretti is 3rd team..


  212.   10andJoe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 3:57 am
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To the back: #51 (backup car), #30, 74, 26 (driver's option)


  213.   Anthony posted:
  05.29.2012 - 4:14 am
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Get rid of the Shark Fin, period.


  214.   Spen posted:
  05.29.2012 - 5:17 am
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Sean: "She's the female Casey Mears" Totally agree. Heck, I was making
that comparison back in 2009, when Danica's coming was still a rumor.
And belive it or not, her Busch career is actually going better than
Mears' was at this point. (Danica's had 4 top tens in what amounts to
one full season, Mears had 2) So if this continues, I fully expect to
see her get a complete fluke of a Cup win in 2017. Probably not fuel
milage, though. More likely, it will be a Logano 2009-type 'win'. (Let's
face it, if she's in the lead and it starts to rain, the race will be
called within two seconds.) Once she gets competent enough to stay on
the lead lap (with assistance from Aaron's, anyway), it's only a matter
of time before it happens.


  215.   10andJoe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:18 am
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Dover entry list is out. 46 cars:

-Sorenson in the 32
-Whitt in the 74
-Scott Speed in the 79


  216.   10andJoe posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:19 am
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-also, Skinner in the 52.


  217.   Brad24 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:22 am
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@Baker #205

"Anyone know anything about a rumor I heard on PRN about Jeff Burton
possibly out before the end of the year?"

I haven't heard any rumors regarding Jeff Burton leaving. However, I
have a feeling that Austin Dillon will end up replacing Burton.
Childress will probably let Burton go sometime in 2013 and Dillon will
run a few Cup races in the #31 while running a full Nationwide schedule
that same year in the #3. That will lead to Dillon going full time in
Cup in 2014. Along with Childress resurrecting the #3.

That's just speculation.


  218.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 12:23 pm
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I don't know about that, Red. After all, Tony Stewart has won the NASCAR
championship three times, and he ran three laps behind in 25th, which
was only five spots ahead of Danica, so it was just a bad night for
Stewart-Haas across the board. And this week doesn't figure to be much
better since Stewart-Haas has struugled on concrete tracks, and the next
stop is Dover. Of course, there's only likely to be 35 or 36 cars
running the race (just look at the entry list). That's because of those
that have to qualify on time, only the #49 may try to run the full race.
And now that there's more than a full race between 35th and 36th (which
is represented by a part-time car), meaning the top 35 is set for the
rest of the season, how long will it be until some at the bottom of the
top 35 also begin doing S&P's?

Also, it's no real surprise to me that Jeff Burton's name has surfaced
as one of those that might lose his ride due to lack of performance.
That's something I first brought up months ago, either late last year or
early this year. Burton is one of the veterans that has suffered in the
last two or three years, and I believe one of the reasons for his
struggles is the shorter fuel runs. Burton has always been one of the
best when it comes to tire conservation, but with the drivers no longer
having to conserve tires due to the shorter fuel runs, drivers such as
Burton, Mark Martin, and Jeff Gordon no longer can use their ability to
conserve their tires to their advantage. Of course that fact that Burton
has becaome slow in comparison to his teammates doesn't work in his
favor, either.


  219.   martin-n-rusty posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:11 pm
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213 - In her defense, she is learning the Cup cars. It's not like you
got a full time guy, who has run a few years (Logano, Ragan), being the
backmarker of the team, and running in the 20's in points. Now if Danica
was in Cup for a few years, and she was running like this, yes, you
would make an excellent point, but at this point, she is still getting
acclimated to stock cars.


  220.   martin-n-rusty posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:15 pm
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And as for Indy (and F1 for that matter) putting up better races. They
still have a long way to go to get back into the public eye, but that is
a big start (though I've said it many times before. Everybody loves to
bitch about the politics in NASCAR. If they saw the politics in F1, they
would consider the Frances choir boys). I think someone at NASCAR should
wake up, because in a few years, if they keep on producing boring races
more times than not, there could be a battle again for top racing series
in America. I think IRL is now on the right track.


  221.   martin-n-rusty posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:18 pm
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"And another Gordon win at Indy, which nearly happened last year, will
be a moment in motorsports in this country that would be unprecedented,
because that would be his fifth win there, which to this day is an
unaccomplished feat."

I think Michael Schumacher would like to have a word with you cjs (yes,
he did win it on the F1 course, but he has won 5 times at Indy)


  222.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:28 pm
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"Dale Jr is the Ryan Leaf of NASCAR"

Absolutely not. It's not even close.


  223.   TheTruthâ?¢ posted:
  05.29.2012 - 1:37 pm
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"Unfortunately, Danica's runs in the #10, as slow as they've been, have
at least gotten it to the finish. David Reuitmann has neither been
competitve or finished races in that car. Now in fairness to Reutimann,
when he's in that car, Tommy Baldwin Racing runs the car, while when
Patrick runs it, Stewart-Haas Racing runs it."

I think Reutimann's DNFs this year have only come due to mechanical
failures. He blew up at Phoenix while running top 20, then there was
Martinsville when he had a broken tie rod (or similar part) and then the
engine quit running. There's certainly a HUGE difference between SHR and
TBR of course, and while Reutimann hasn't set the world on fire, there
were a few races where I thought he got a lot out of the equipment. He's
actually been regularly outrunning Dave Blaney in those cars, and maybe
the 10's got more focus as Blaney's parked a race or two this year, but
Blaney hasn't really had Reutimann's speed in general.


  224.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 3:14 pm
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Martin-n-rusty, While a comparison from the Indianapolis 500 to the
Brickyard 400 is readily doable, because they're running on the same
course in lengthy races, and the time it takes to get those races in is
even comparable in most years (and even the length of the fuel runs is
now the same), you can never make the same comparison about F1, because
their races at Indy weren't even half as long as the Brickyard 400, and
one of the races Schumacher won had only six cars in it. So trying to
compare the F1 records to either the NASCAR or Indy records is
laughable. But if Jeff Gordon (or anyone else in the future) wins a
fifth Brickyard 400, it would be a landmark feat, because they've been
running races on the oval for more than 100 years and nobody has ever
won on it five times.


  225.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.29.2012 - 3:53 pm
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"Danica leaving seriously gave IndyCar life (especially with Hinchcliffe
being more likable than anyone else in major league racing today).
Hinchcliffe hasn't yet shown the ability to dominate or win yet, but
tied for second in points is better than Danica ever showed at any point
in seven years, and the fields are deeper now than they usually were
when Danica was driving too... "

You are right. I don't want to blame her directly, but with her
celebrity off the track, she is really an albatross to whatever Series
she is racing in. Networks, who have NEVER ignored the chance to pick up
the quick buck right in front of them, have to dedicate a certain amount
of time to her (although probably not as much as they have) to appease
the people who are tuning in just to watch her. Worst of all, they have
to sugar coat just how bad she is doing, especially in the Cup races.
And that is a slap in the face to those of us who are fans of racing.
Praising somebody who is 5 or 6 laps down just cause they haven't
wrecked is just stomach turning to us.

Which leads us to the biggest hurdle with Danica-Mania: She just isn't
very good. Especially in NASCAR. She has stepped into a world she isn't
even remotely ready for. I can't speak to her Indy Car career as well as
some others, I can't tell you a lot about her circumstances there, but 1
fuel mileage win in 7 seasons (on a split field weekend) doesn't jump
out at me. But her performance in NASCAR have left a ton to be desired.
Her runs in NWide this year have been extremely disappointing. For the
experience she has already had in those cars, and with the fields about
as deep as a kiddie pool when it comes to teams like her's with good
funding, she is just kinda there. And her Cup Series runs? Yuck. It is
hard to have somebody dominate the broadcasts that are running that bad.
Again, she is an albatross.

And I agree her leaving has revitalized Indy Car. At least from a pure
racing standpoint. Watching the Indy 500, it so much more refreshing
than the previous years versions of the race I have watched. They could
focus on the actual racing and the stories that matter. They could focus
on Dario Franchitti and what a 3rd Indy 500 would mean to his legacy.
They could talk about Tony Kanaan and what finally breaking through in
this race would mean to him. They could talk about the quiet Scott Dixon
and what a 2nd 500 crown would do for him. And they could certainly talk
about what it would mean for the three of them to be able to honor the
memory of their good friend, Dan Wheldon, the defending winner of that
race. Listening to Dario and Tony talk about what having their face
right next to Dan's on the Borg Warner trophy would mean to them truly
tugged at the heart strings. The Coke 600? Did we get any mention of
where Kasey's 3rd win in this event places him among the legends of this
event?

And I also must agree Hinch, from what I got to see of him, should be
great for the Series.


  226.   Talon64 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 4:52 pm
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2011: 12 starts, 1 top 5, 3 top 10's, 6 top 15 finishes, 17.4 avg fin,
77.2 driver rating

2012: 11 starts, 1 pole, 1 top 10, 5 top 15 finishes, 20.2 avg fin, 74.5
driver rating.

The Daytona wreck, Fontana engine failure and blown tire at Iowa don't
help Danica's average finish this year, and her driver rating this year
isn't nearly as worse than 2011 than I thought it'd be.

Still, shouldn't she be running better, not slightly worse, now that
she's here every race?

Then again, here's what Sam Hornish Jr. was doing in his first couple of
part-time seasons in Nationwide:

http://www.racing-reference.info/drivdet/hornisa01/2007/B

http://www.racing-reference.info/drivdet/hornisa01/2008/B

and his first season in Cup in 2008:

http://www.racing-reference.info/drivdet/hornisa01/2008/W

Not much better early on than what Danica's been doing. Although that
#77 team was pretty shitty.

I don't think she's all that great, but the negativity's starting to get
to be a bit TOO much.


  227.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 4:52 pm
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Here's a sign that all is not rosy in the economic front in NASCAR. Red
Horse Racing has, for the moment, shut down the effort of the team that
won the Truck Series race at Daytona due to lack of funding (go to
NASCAR.com for the article). When a team that wins the most important
race in a series has to be shut down due to funding issues, not only are
things not rosy on the economic front, they may be worse than anyone
realizes. Now granted, John King has't done hardly anything since his
win in that race, but the mere fact that his team had to be shut down
before the arrival of June says something about the economic climate in
the sport as a whole. While it's not on the scale of what has happened
to 2011 Daytona 500 winner Trevor Bayne at Roush, this is still a very
significant news item in NASCAR.


  228.   Eric posted:
  05.29.2012 - 6:13 pm
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Baker,

I really haven't heard anything about Jeff Burton being out possibly out
before the end of the year.

I have a hard to see Jeff Burton being out of the car before the end of
the 2013 season because Austin Dillon is going to take over the 31 car
for 2014 season. The only 2 ways Jeff Burton is gone before than is by
Austin going to cup sooner full time or Richard getting an older driver
for getting the 31 before Austin takes over the seat full time in 2014.

I do thing Jeff will have to find a new find a new cup or retire after
the 2013 season from cup racing at least unless he would plan to race in
the lower levels of NASCAR such as the truck series.


  229.   Eric posted:
  05.29.2012 - 6:21 pm
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I am more familiar with Danica than DaleSrFanForever is in terms of her
racing Indy car. She was a top 10 driver on ovals, but she usually
didn't do well on Road courses/Street Courses. I though she was solid
Indy Car driver, but isn't the type to finish in the top in points. The
truth is if she stayed in Indycar, she actually would decline because of
the amount of street and road courses Indy Car now has plus the depth of
Indy Cars is way better than it was when Stewart was there.

There was issues with Danica before what she did to Sam Hornish. When
she was in Indycar, I recalled her having encounters with other drivers
in Indycar, but not wrecking them on the track including another female
driver. The encounters happened when she wasn't the race car in terms of
places like pit road an example.


  230.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:09 pm
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Eric, being a top 10 driver on ovals in a series that has not much more
than 20 cars racing, and only about 15-18 competitve cars isn't saying
much, either. But the one thing about Danica, and it was mentioned on
the broadcasts this weekend, is that if her cars are not handling well,
she'll run slower rather than wreck them. The one reputation she had was
that she finished races and very rarely crashed. And for a car owner
starting a new team, as is the case with the #10 car, you actually
couuldn't ask for anything better. Sure she's not going to run up front,
but she's generally going to bring it back in one piece, and for a team
just trying to get off the ground, that may be the most important thing,
because it means that those at the shop aren't going to have to spend
extra time fixing wrecked cars. Why do you think Dale Earnhardt chose
Darrell Waltrip to drive for him when Steve Park got injured in 1998?
Because he knew that, above all else, Waltrip was going to bring the car
home in one piece.


  231.   Eric posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:48 pm
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cjs3872,

I already know the fields of Indy Car, I was only typing the facts on
her to a person like DaleSrFanForever who doesn't known much about
Indycar or watch it a lot. If Indycar had had the fields of Nascar,
Danica would have been a 15 to 20 place driver on ovals since I recalled
her having finishes from 6 to 10th place with a top 5 times. On Road
Courses Danica regressed in her last 2 years as an Indycar driver. In
Nascar terms she would be 25 to 30th range if Indy Car had the size of
fields NASCAR has. She also regress in Indycar when Champ car teams join
Indycar because Champ car had some goo road course drivers.

I was only talking about Danica as an Indy Car Driver and you should
have only mentioned that.

The other thing you should not act like I didn't know why Earnhardt
hired Darrell Waltrip in 1998. I followed NASCAR since 1993, so I
actually about Waltrip in his past his prime years including what he did
at DEI. When Darrell Waltrip was with DEI, I thought in 1998 that
Darrell was a good pick to sub for Park and I thought he did a great job
at the time since it was a start up cup team.


  232.   Eric posted:
  05.29.2012 - 11:55 pm
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CJS 3872,

While Danica regressed in her last 2 years in Indycar in road course,
and Street course, she was decent at a time. Danica sucked at road
course in her first couple years before got better for a time before she
regressed in 2010. The other issue with her was restarts while in
Indycar. If she didn't have restarts in Indycar, she might have had more
top 5's in Indycar.


  233.   martin-n-rusty posted:
  05.30.2012 - 12:07 am
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true cjs, Schuey did it in a "shorter" race, and one of those wins was
tainted, but someone winning 5 at that speedway wouldn't be
"unprecedented". Winning 5 races that go for a scheduled distance of at
least 400 miles, yes, but of the big racing series, no.


  234.   kup posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:33 am
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UPS - universal points system. Driver`s Pts = Distance / Aver.Finish
Ranking after 12 of 36 races of 2012 season:

671 Greg Biffle
597 Matt Kenseth
589 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - #88 the only Chevy in Top5.
549 Denny Hamlin
440 Martin Truex, Jr. - #56 Waltrip Toyota in Top5!

421 Kevin Harvick
389 Kyle Busch
376 Tony Stewart - #14 with 3-time Champ.
349 Jimmie Johnson - #48 with 5-time Champ.
345 Carl Edwards

336 Clint Bowyer
328 Brad Keselowski - #2 Penske Dodge has 12th rank.
299 Paul Menard
273 Ryan Newman
267,9 Kasey Kahne - #5 had bad start in `12 but now winning!

267,8 Joey Logano
250 Jeff Burton
234 Juan Montoya - #42 Columbia as Latin Am.
233 Marcos Ambrose #9 Australia as British Union.
225 Mark Martin - #55 in just 9 of 12 races.

209 AJ Allmendinger - #22 ex-Indy racer
199,5 Jeff Gordon - #24 had 25th rank after 11 races.
199,2 Kurt Busch - #51 ex-#22 Penske racer
197 Regan Smith - #78 Colorado Mid-West team!
193 Bobby Labonte - #47 veteran as #55, but Champ, but #55 ranks better!


  235.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.30.2012 - 7:24 am
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Well, Eric, when I said that on the broadcasts this weekend that it was
mentioned that she had a reputation of finishing races, it should have
been obvious that I was talking about her in IndyCars, but since I
didn't, it's only fair that you have me clarify that. Now as for her on
road courses, what she had done on road courses was never mentioned in
the post I was responding to, so I didn't mention it, but she regressed
on road courses, and she wasn't that great on them in the IndyCar series
to begin with for the most part. And the point about Darrell Waltrip
driving for Dale Earnhardt in 1998 was not intended to be directed at
you, but rather a general comment, and the reason why Earnhardt picked
Waltrip to begin with.

Now martin-n-rusty,the reason I say that you can't put what Schumacher
do up against what guys like Gordon and Jimmie Johnson do in the
Brickyard 400, or anyone else that might ewin it five times, or the
greats in the Indianapolis 500 have as much to do with the fact that
Schumacher didn't even do it on the same course as it did with the fact
the races were shorter. Schumacher did it on the road course, which only
uses a small part of the oval. That's the biggest reason why I say you
can't compare what Schumacher did to what the legends have done on the
oval. Note that in my critique of Schumacher's accomplishments at Indy
in comparison to the other greats that I never mentioned Mark Martin
three consecutive IROC wins. That's because Martin did that on the same
course as the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 are run, which makes
Martin the only driver to win the same event om the IMS oval three years
in a row.


  236.   Bill the Snake Charmer posted:
  05.30.2012 - 8:35 am
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For many many years I was a NASCAR-only type of guy. Now I am watching
IndrCar and F1 and loving it. Let me tell you something. NASCAR is in
for a fight. IndyCar is improving. And I think NASCAR is declining. The
Coke 600 I used to catch up on sleep. I think though NASCAR does have
abright spot. His name is Kasey Kahne. Kahne has a lot of talent and all
he needed was the right situation. He has it this year and I think he
will go on a massive role. hendrick as a whole is still very dominant
and I think will be for decades to come. Roush and Gibbs are in trouble
long-term. Seriously who and what cans top Hendrick? I think Hendrick
stock car is becoming more and more dominant as their compitition fades.


  237.   palo_s posted:
  05.30.2012 - 11:32 am
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#228:
"The truth is if she stayed in Indycar, she actually would decline
because of the amount of street and road courses Indy Car now has plus
the depth of Indy Cars is way better than it was when Stewart was there."

I disagree, because old car hadnt power steering.. In 2007 old car had
power steering, Danica was doing well.. But IndyCar banned power
steering.. New car HAS power steering.. Her problems on road courses was
about lack of physical condition..




  238.   Baker posted:
  05.30.2012 - 11:57 am
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Jeff Gordon actually already has 5 wins on the oval as he won a Winston
West race there in 1994.


  239.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.30.2012 - 12:22 pm
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He does not, Baker. Sure that first Brickyard 400 was supposed to be a
combination Cup-West Series race, much like the races at Sonoma were
then, but the only West driver to make the field did so via provisional.
That would be like saying that Lee Petty won a convertible race because
he won the first Daytona 500, which had 20 convertibles in the race.
That's the very controversy that surrounds Bobby Allison's win at
Winston-Salem in 1971. Since he ran a Grand American car in a Cup race
and won it, NASCAR only scored his win as a Grand American win, but not
a Cup win, which was the wrong thing to do. Sure you can say Gordon's
1994 Brickyard win should count in both series, but even if it does, it
was only one race, not two.


  240.   10andJoe posted:
  05.30.2012 - 1:57 pm
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Actually, officially, /Mike Chase/ won the 1994 Brickyard 400 in the
Winston West Series. In combination races, the highest Winston West
driver in the field was credited with a Winston West win - hence, Chase
'won' at Indianapolis, Jeff Krogh 'won' at Sonoma in 1996 (his only West
Series win, in fact), etc.


  241.   Baker posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:02 pm
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Didn't know it was a combo race with the first brickyard haha. I just
looked up Indy winners. Should have payed more attention sorry.


  242.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:07 pm
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Thanks, 10andJoe, I didn't realize that. You learn something every day
on these forums.


  243.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:35 pm
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And by the way, attendance is down for yet another major event, as there
were only 140,000 in attendance for the Coca-Cola 600. But if you think
that is bad. Remember how we were all were bagging the attendance for
the Brickyard 400 the last few years, as only 140,000 attended that race
the last couple of years. Well now that malaise has even affected the
Indianapolis 500, as only 220,000 attended that event. Now there are at
least 238,000 permanent seats at Indy, and of course, there are many
people in the infield at that event. That means the Indianapolis 500
didn't even come anywhere near a sellout. And when the Indianapolis 500
can't come close to selling out, there's a much more serious problem
than we all think in terms the popularity of motorsports in this
country. After all, the attendance for the Daytona 500 has declined over
the last few years (weather didn't help this year, but look at the
previous few years vs. the highest attendance that event ever had),
attendance for the Brickyard 400 has plummeted, and the crowd for the
Coca-Cola 600 has also dropped in the last few years, but what happened
this past Sunday at Indianapolis in terms of the crowd may be the most
glaring thing of all. When the Indianapolis 500 can't sell out, there's
a big problem, much bigger than anyone realizes.


  244.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:36 pm
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In my personal opinion, I put no correlation between the Indy 500 and
the Brickyard 400. I agree with Jeff Gordon on this topic (ZOMG!).
Nascar and Indy Car are two completely different sports in my opinion.
It's like comparing baseball to football. For example, for a long time
the New York Football Giants (©Howard Cosell) played their games in
Yankee Stadium, on the same field as the Bombers. But I wouldn't compare
the number of "Yankee Stadium championships" between Frank Guifford and
Mickey Mantle. Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr also won NFL championships
by beathing the Giants in Yankee Stadium. But again, no correlation to
baseball IMO. Just my two cents.


  245.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.30.2012 - 2:42 pm
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The declining attendance for the Coca Cola 600 is easily explainable:
the racing at Charlotte sucks, especially since the levigation and
repave. I live a little over an hour from the track and haven;t gone
there since 2006. I have even had free tickets offered to me and decided
to stay home. After having to endure the distaster of the 2005 Coca Cola
600, then the snoozer of the '06 edition, I just said the hell with it
and just went to Martinsville instead, and will try to go to the yearly
Darlington race (2 and 1/2 hours away) instead.


  246.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.30.2012 - 3:07 pm
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But DSFF, that still wouldn't explain why the Indianapolis 500 didn't
even come close to selling out. Sure the racing at Charlotte (and the
other intermediates except Atlanta) hasn't been that good for at least
the last six or seven years, and there are ways to fix it, including
making it so that drafting is more important, and making fuel runs
longer so that tire wear and conservation become factors, which would
also make the racing better, but that still wouldn't explain why they
can't sell out Daytona and Talladega, as attendance at those two tracks
have been declining as long as attendance has been at the other tracks,
if not longer (I don't think they even got 100,000 for he most recent
race at Talladega). But the fact that the Indianapolis 500 didn't even
come close to selling out is the biggest red herring of all. There
hasn't been attendance that low for an Indianapolis 500 in a race not
affected by rain since the double-decker granstands came in the late 1940s.


  247.   10andJoe posted:
  05.30.2012 - 7:48 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Webmaster: There's something screwy going on with the posts here.
They're somehow getting scrambled and displaying out of order!


  248.   Spen posted:
  05.31.2012 - 3:23 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Yeah. I made one post that was supposed to be #216 or somewhere around
there, and it came out as #200, so chances are, no one even read it.


  249.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.31.2012 - 7:50 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Good points cjs. Obviously the economy is having its effect. But after
thinking about it, I have come to a conclusion. The shifting of the
generations of racing fans is having its effect. This new generation is
the first of the "video game" generation, people like myself that had
video games and other electronics to keep us entertained. Before, kids
had to go outside to find fun and thus became conditioned to the outdoor
elements. Which leads me to my point. It takes a specific kind of person
to sit outside in the sun for hours at a time when they can can just sit
at home and watch it on their HD TVs. I can handle it cause I love
racing, and although part of the video game generation, growing up in
the South has conditioned me to a degree to suffocating heat and
humidity. Remember, this year's Indy 500 was forecasted to be the
hottest ever. With the outdoor generation slowly being replaced by the
indoor video gamers, this trend may continue.


  250.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 8:13 am
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Still there have been previous years where there have been scorching
temperatures in which attendance has not been affected. The races in
1977 and '78 were among the hottest on record, and attendance didn't
suffer in either one of those two years and there have been other years
in which there has been extremely hot and race attendance has not been
affected, so I don't buy the heat argument for one minute for the
estimated attendance basically meaning they were only able to fill the
place just barely more than half-full. There is room at Indy for
400,000+ people for the Indianapolis 500 and for only 220,000 to show up
on a day when they knew the race would get in is appalling for the
Indianapolis 500.

We've criticized the attendance for the Brickyard 400 in recent years,
and rightly so, but the fact that the big dog among the races at IMS,
the Indianapolis 500, couldn't fill much more than half the place should
take some of the pressure off the Brickyard 400 attendance, which I
think will struggle to reach 140,000, the figure for the last two years.
To put it another way, there were about 50,000 more people for the
Brickyard 400 four years ago than there were for the Indianapolis 500
this year.


  251.   NicoRosbergFan posted:
  05.31.2012 - 9:05 am
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220,000 seems to be an underestimation. Those stands were all packed on
Sunday. To be specific, cjs, I think Indy fits 500,000 people. That is
more than Wyoming.


  252.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 9:43 am
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NicoRosbergFan, there are at least 238,000 permanent seats at the
Indianapolis Motor Speedway (that was the number when it was first
revealed back in 1981), and almost as many can crowd the infield, so for
the announced estimated attendance to be just 220,000, either someone
badly miscalculated, ir they barely filled the place more than half
full. I'm betting on the latter.


  253.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 9:51 am
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And I just checked the Indianapolis 500 results page from last year, and
the estimated attendance for last year's Indianapolis 500 was listed at
300,000. If the attendance figures for this year's race were anywhere
near correct, that means attendance for the Indianapolis 500 dropped
more than 25% this year from last. If that's true, that's a staggering
figure, and a bigger percentage drop than the Brickyard 400 had from one
year to the next. If I were in charge of IMS and saw that, I would be
worried like you wouldn't believe, because that means the popularity of
the Indianapolis 500 would be at an all-time low. As I stated earlier,
not since double-decker seating came to IMS back in 1949 has attendance
for the Indianapolis 500 been so low, except for the years in which the
race was affected by rain. But a 25% decrease in attendance for this
year's Indianapolis 500 may be the most telling statistic about the drop
in popularity in motorsports in this country, across the board.


  254.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.31.2012 - 1:23 pm
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Those figures came from INDY STAR, who are the only people who estimate
Indianapolis 500 attendance year after year (the wikipedia figures are
B.S., ie 1995 250,00 and 2011 300,000). IMHO, last year's attendance was
overestimated, and this year's accurate. There are about 250,000 seats
plus the infield. There were tons of empty seats in turns 3 and 4, and
the Northeast Vista was the worst. In addition, there were also empty
seats on the frontstretch in the lower rows, and tower terrace looked
half empty from the aerial shots. Also, seats were removed from the
South Terrace and Pit Road Terrace this year. Great crowd in the infield
though, but looking at it vs the 90s it certainly doesn't hold as much
people as it used to. The infield even used to have very sizeable
grandstands in it, that I remember seeing as late as 2007. The removal
of those could have easily taken away from the overall seating capacity

Last year was the 100th year and had great weather, this year had
weather that was hot as hell, so there's a possibility that many people
who bought tickets didn't show up and those that did stayed under the
grandstands or watched it on TV in some of the vendor areas (Who don't
really see much of the Indy track anway unless you have great, high
seats, and most of those are covered).


  255.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.31.2012 - 1:26 pm
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Also, I think the "room for 400,000" figure may be slightly outdated, as
we've seen a big portion of the infield taken away for the MotoGp track
in turn 1, seats removed from the pit terrace and south terrace as well
as the removal of quite large grandstands in the infield. 220,000 is
still a great crowd considering it was a really hot day after an
anniversary year in a not-so-great economy.


  256.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.31.2012 - 2:44 pm
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Again, the fans showing up in the seventies were the generation that had
to go outside for fun as kids. But you have to factor in the generation
shift. Take for instance myself. I was born in 1984. I grew up with the
Nintendo and Super Nintendo. Mario Bros, F-Zero, the Mortal Kombat
games, Ivan Stewart's Off Road Racing, and oh my God MARIO KART! I wore
those games out. My point is the generation taking over is not
accustomed to the elements. Most of us grew up indoors, in the climate
control. I'm telling ya, sitting in the sun is something that takes
seasoning. The previous generation grew up in the sun. People like
myself in this new generation are rare. Dad took me to races at a young
age, and spent his time off playing baseball or throwing the football
outside with me no matter the weather. He also took me camping, to minor
league baseball games, and to the lake for fishing and picnics in the
dead of summer. Therefore I am accustomed to what the sun does to you
over the course of many hours. And you have to be to go to a race. Even
nigh races, you can't just show up at start time, you have to get there
early if you don't want to be stuck in traffic and park 10 miles from
the track. You have to spend time in the sun. A lot of this generation
iisn't used to that, and hear things like "temperature forcasted in the
90's" and say "piss on that, I'm staying inside".

Remember, baseball and football attendance are declining while
basketball and hockey have seen an upturn in the past few years. I'm
afraid the outdoor factor will hurt racing even if the economy recovers.


  257.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 2:45 pm
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Okay TeamPlayersBlue, but I only go by what's posted here since that's
the only reliable source for attendance I know of. 220,000 is a very
good crowd, don't get me wrong, but that's not up to usual IMS standards
for the Indianapolis 500. And that mention of 238,000 permanent seats
was from the 1981 and '82 race broadcasts. Now I can understand people
staying home because of the heat, but entire sections of grandstands not
being used? I've never seen that before at an Indianapolis 500 and I've
watched every Indianapolis 500 since 1989 (on TV, of course). And some
of those grandstands may have been removed due to the declining
attendance for the Brickyard 400 over the last four years.

And like I said, IF those figures were accurate, that would have meant a
25% drop in attendance for the Indianapolis 500 this year. And like I
said, if they get anywhere near the 140,000 they've gotten for the
Brickyard 400 later this year, I'll be shocked. but then I only
predicted a crowd of 80,000-100,000 for that event last year, so I was
pleasantly surprised. And 80,000-100,000 is my predicted crowd for the
Brickyard 400 later this year, as well.


  258.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.31.2012 - 3:47 pm
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Also, if the 2010 Coca Cola 600 figures are correct, I don't see how
140,000 people attended this year's race unless there was a
significantly larger infield crowd. Just look at this video for yourself
of the 2010 Cola Cola 600 which was also estimated to be at 140,000:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6LY2h9s8DI

*The grandstands in turn 2 are packed, almost sold out. This year 1/3 of
the grandstand was closed off, and the part that wasn't closed off had
plenty of empty seats (this year you could see the checkered flag
grandstand colour and in 2010 you could not)

*Turn 4 Terrace packed with exception of some empty seats at bottom
closer towards turn 3. This year tons of empty seats from the beginning
to end of the grandstand no matter how high. Two sections at end nearly
empty.

*Frontstretch packed during both races.

All of this considering CMS seating capacity is 140,000. Had they not
covered those turn 2 seats the crowd probably would have looked horrible.

Don't like to talk about attendance that much, but since it was a topic
I had to chime in.


  259.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.31.2012 - 4:47 pm
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Speedways always fudge their estimated attendance.


  260.   Eric posted:
  05.31.2012 - 5:13 pm
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TeamPlayersBlue,

The cup race wasn't only NASCAR Race was Charlotte Motorspeedway that
had totals that were off. What I gather from other websites, the
Nationwide race has only 15,000 fans instead of 45,000 fans.

The other thing to look at figures at Race tracks had been off in the
past. I remembered years ago mentioned Wind Tunnel with Dave Despain
that the Indy Racing League attendance figures were higher than they
actually are based on looking at the grandstand.

Racetracks have a history of making attendance numbers higher than they
actually are is legal to my understanding.


  261.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.31.2012 - 5:42 pm
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"Take for instance myself. I was born in 1984. I grew up with the
Nintendo and Super Nintendo. Mario Bros, F-Zero, the Mortal Kombat
games, Ivan Stewart's Off Road Racing, and oh my God MARIO KART!"

Your are OLD, OLD MAN, OLD GRANDPA, OLD PERSON. GOD YOUR ARE OLD TO THE
MILLTIONTH POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like i should talk, i'm 4 years younger then you are (and i'm an uncle
to boot, so Quailfyies me as old) And i grew up with those games too.
Goodness me those were the days, now it just sucks. Got Call Of Duty BS
stuff there. THOSE WERE REAL GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tracks do fugde up attendence figures, it being happening for ever.
(since hector was a pup. If you want to go that far back)

BTW does anyone on here know why the Indy 500 had so many lead changes?

I'll tell you: the cars are under powered and have too much downforce
(which i thought the new car was supposed to stop that?) So maybe that
is why IICS has been putting on better "races", they have lots of
downforce and under powered cars.

So since fans endlessly complain about how bad racing is, think about
this: drop the HP about 500, increase downforce by lots and lots and see
what happens.

Note: DSFF, you are OLD. :-P


  262.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:10 pm
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In other words, 1995 Subaru WRX STi, there were so many lead changes at
the Indianapolis 500 because of one word, and that word is DRAFTING. The
cars were drafting at Indianapolis because of the hole they punched in
the air, combined with the reduced horsepower, and as a result, the cars
drafted nearly the entire race because except for the one time Marco
Andretti did so early in the race, no one car could break away from the
pack. now you se what would happen if NASCAR did something to put
drafting back into play at the intermediates and big tracks that they
don't use the restrictor plates on (i.e. Pocono and Indianapolis). It's
for that reason that the Nationwide Series race at IMS later this year
might be the best NASCAR race ever at IMS.


  263.   Eric posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:15 pm
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1995 Subaru WRX STi and DaleSrFanForever,

I am older than both of you. I remember watching Transformers back in
1984 when it was a new show and I also get my first Transformers toy
that Christmas also. When I 5 years old, I remembered wanting an
Intellivision II for Christmas after seeing it in a Sear Christmas
Catalog. When People around my age were 5 years old, we could get Atari
2600, Atari 5200, Intellivision II or Coleocivision for video game
systems from the 1982 to 1984 time frame.


  264.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:32 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Also, the 140,000 figure for the Coca Cola 600 when you consider that
the 2010 was reported to have the same number is odd unless there was a
massive upswing in infield attendance at Charlotte:

Look at 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6LY2h9s8DI

*Turn 2 sold out in 2010, 1/3 of the turn 2 grandstand was closed off
this year, and the remaining seats were about 50-75% full.

*Turn 4 mostly full except towards the end of the grandstand and lower
sections. This year empty seats everywhere plus some nearly empty
sections towards the end.

*Frontstretch and Turn 1 look the same.

All this considering the capacity of CMS is 140,000 (including the
closed section).

But I do agree, it was a pretty bad crowd for Indy.


  265.   Eric posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:44 pm
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cjs3872,

There is are 3 reasons for the decrease of attendance for Talladega
besides the economy. I believe it was the fall of 2009 that the drivers
were racing single file for most of the racing and were boycotting by
doing that.

The 2nd thing is race fans did not like tandem racing last year.

The third thing is based on what I read online, there are NASCAR Fans
that don't like plate racing or got sick of it. Those "Fans" actually
want the cars not to have plates on them. That means they want the cars
to go over 240 MPH without caring if a car goes into the grandstands. I
agree with NASCAR not doing anything about reason 3 because it drivers
would be hurt pretty bad despite how the cars are and have safety
barriers besides fans getting hurt.


  266.   Red posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:59 pm
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"I grew up with the Nintendo and Super Nintendo. Mario Bros, F-Zero, the
Mortal Kombat games, Ivan Stewart's Off Road Racing, and oh my God MARIO
KART!"

Amen! I'm a 1985-er, and those are exactly the games I loved growing up,
particularly Mario Kart. I seriously must've spent 500 hours entranced
in Mario Kart heaven. I remember the first time I won the Special Cup in
150cc; it was like I just conquered the world! The original Rainbow Road
was my very favorite track. It was so different from anything I'd seen
in a racing game, and it was challenging as hell with no walls and sharp
turns. Even the cheesy music was awesome. Ah, good times.

Modern video games have zero interest to me. Maybe that's because I'm
26, but I'd rather go outside than sit in front of a TV screen all day.
Besides, the games now are just so damn complicated, and you have to
invest a ridiculous amount of time to really appreciate them. You can't
just pick up a game and play anymore. The old Mario games will never be
topped. Damn I sound like an old man :)


  267.   TeamPlayersBlue posted:
  05.31.2012 - 6:59 pm
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Comments are whacky. reposted a post that failed 4 hours ago in post 264.


  268.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.31.2012 - 8:28 pm
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I also haven't taken to the new era of games that take 3 months just to
play through once. I remember the first time I won the Rainbow Road
150cc race. Pure euphoria.


  269.   Smiff_99 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 8:57 pm
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DSFF, you're opening pandora's box here with the childhood
nostalgia.....lol.

I was born in '86 and no doubt have ALLL the same kick-ass memories of
childhood. Does anybody else remember getting out of school and roaming
your neighborhood on your bike until dinnner or sundown? Every damn day....

I have such fond memories of childhood (and NASCAR of the same era) that
whenever I need a pick-me-up, I'll go on Youtube and just 'watch' one of
the Speedworld intros from the 90's.....and be instantly taken back the
OUR generation's 'good ole days'.


  270.   LordLowe posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:02 pm
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Hey Wouldn't it be great if NASCAR built a track just like Rainbow Road


  271.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:09 pm
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Ah, god, I remember playing Mario games when I grew up. I used to be
quite BAD at Mario when I was a kid, but oddly enough, I was REALLY good
at Sonic games...I've played them again recently and now it's quite the
opposite...I think every kid's first game should be a Mario game.

I had all sorts of games when I was younger. I used to play Pokemon,
Banjo-Kazooie, Spyro, Kirby...(I'm a '90s child, though I have played my
fair share of '80s games). I also used to have NASCAR Racing 2 and used
to have fun driving BACKWARDS in that game because I thought it was
funny...although I do remember winning the Winston Cup when I was 8
years old and winning half the races on the schedule (and crashing out
on the first lap at Watkins Glen big time).

I also used to watch lots of cartoons when I was younger and NASCAR when
I could get the opportunity...Laugh at me if you want but I STILL like
cartoons to this day.


  272.   Eric posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:09 pm
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Smiff_99,

I used to ride a bike in my neighborhood too as a kid and it was one of
my fond childhood memories.

The 1980's as a kid for me were great including watching Indy Cars on
television or hear them on the radio. The 1990's back when was a teen
great also.


  273.   Schroeder51 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:11 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

#270: That would be a pretty epic idea, although for that work NASCAR
has to hire Lakitu to work for them as a new official. Could you imagine
Lakitu fishing Jeff Gordon's and Kyle Busch's car out of the abyss after
going off course?


  274.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:37 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

I just got into the Legend of Zelda series and must say, its as good as
they say. (yes, if this makes me a nerd then so be it)

"I used to play Pokemon, Banjo-Kazooie"

I still have the first Pokemon Red version, still play it once in a
while (and i still have the cards too). And i never beat Banjo-Kazooie,
i liked it but never beat it.

Metriod Prime (1&2), Soul Caliber 2, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Burnout 3
(IMHO the GREATEST racing game ever), Tom Claneys Ghost Recon 1,
Splinter Cell, Star Wars KOTOR (the 1st one), Turok 2, Road Rash (all of
them are good), Golden eye 007 for the N64 (still epic even today),
Medal of Honor, etc.

Just some examples i've playied. And i still have some of them. I still
have original XBOX. I'm starting to wish i NEVER got rid of my PS2.


  275.   10andJoe posted:
  05.31.2012 - 10:59 pm
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Heck, watcy any of the ESPN intros from that era - MLB, NASCAR, NHL (now
/THAT/ music was /awesome/)...it makes you want to cry by comparison.


  276.   cjs3872 posted:
  05.31.2012 - 11:08 pm
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Well, CBS had some of the best intro tunes, especially back in the
1970s. Their opening tune for the NFL Today is one of the most iconic
openings in sports television history, their opening for the NBA, the
"Give it All You Got" opening was, in my mind, the best intro tune for
the NBA to this day, and they opened the telecasts of the Daytona 500
from 1979-'81 with Chuck Mangione's "Children of Sanchez". They even
used it to go into many of their commerical breaks during the 1981
Daytona 500. And in the 1980s, both CBS and ABC used great musical
pieces for their starting lineup, as they usually gave the entire
starting lineup, unlike today. Another iconic sports telecast tune was
the opening for NBC's MLB Game of the Week, and of course, the most
lasting was the one ABC used for Wide World of Sports.


  277.   Red posted:
  05.31.2012 - 11:20 pm
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To me, the best part about being a kid in the late 80's/early 90's was
that kids still had freedom and free time. As Eric mentioned, I used to
ride my bike around after school and go to the park and play various
games with the neighborhood kids. We'd play tag, touch football, shoot
hoops, toss around a baseball or frisbee, and my personal favorite:
building racetracks in the playground sand pits and "racing" our
matchbox cars around them.

Sadly, kids growing up in the 2000's aren't usually afforded the freedom
to create their own activities and just enjoy being a kid. Everything is
structured, scheduled, and micromanaged. Instead of just going out to
play, all activities are monitored by parents, teachers, coaches, etc.
Today's children will never experience the simple joy of sandlot
baseball or driveway basketball. Instead, all sports must be conducted
with uniforms, referees, and insurance waivers. I believe this is one
reason why many young athletes come across as spoiled and lacking an
engaging personality; they've never had to solve their own problems or
use their own creativity, because they've always had parents and coaches
holding their hand and telling them exactly what to do. Then, the real
world comes in and smacks them in the face, and they don't know how to
handle it. As as far as NASCAR goes, the Busch brothers and Joey Logano
come to mind.


  278.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  05.31.2012 - 11:27 pm
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The old Speedworld music still gets me everytime. And yes it would be
fun to have a track with nowalls like Rainbow Road. Imagine Darlington
if they took down the walls in the corners. Instead of getting your
"Darlington Stripe" you would just plumet out of there like Cale in the
60's. Actually wasn't the old Daytona Beach Course like that?

And yes, as a teenager, getting a bunch of friends together and playing
Goldeneye on the multi player 4 screen mode with rocket launchers? That
was so much fun. Unless you were at the Facility and respawned in the
vent with somebody waiting on the other end. You had nowhere to go!


  279.   Red posted:
  05.31.2012 - 11:43 pm
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"And i never beat Banjo-Kazooie, i liked it but never beat it."

IMO, Banjo-Kazooie had the best game-ending boss of any game I played.
The final battle vs. Gruntilda was truly a white knuckle, ball buster
challenge, to a greater degree than any other game I can recall. It
probably took me at least 50 attempts to finally defeat her, and I
remember how my hands were soaked with sweat and I was literally shaking
after it was over.

The other game that worked me into a cold sweat was Diddy Kong Racing,
in both of the races against Wizpig. I thought I was never going to beat
that damn pig, but when I finally did it I was so elated. That game
wasn't as popular as MarioKart 64, but I actually thought it was more
fun, and definitely more challenging.

I realize we're hijacking this thread, so I promise this will be my last
post about childhood nostalgia and video games.


  280.   Red posted:
  06.01.2012 - 12:15 am
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Speaking of crazy ideas for racetracks, Tony's rant at Dega got me
thinking: How about a figure-eight layout? Obviously it would need a
crossover bridge for the "x", but I don't see why you couldn't build a
track in that shape. The straightaways would have to be long enough and
wide enough to allow drivers to pull out and position themselves for a
pass entering the turns, ala Watkins Glen entering the bus stop. For the
sake of quirkiness, one end of the track could have a long, smooth
sweeping corner, while the other end could have a squarish,
multiple-apex corner. Each turn would have different banking, and one
straightaway would be uphill and one would be downhill. A figure-eight
NASCAR track would be freaking awesome. This seriously needs to happen.


  281.   10andJoe posted:
  06.01.2012 - 12:42 am
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The Suzuka Circuit road course crosses over itself like that, I think.


  282.   myothercarisanM535i posted:
  06.01.2012 - 12:46 am
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There have been a few road courses to feature a crossover "ficure-eight"
layout, namely Suzuka and Oran Park (I put figure eight in brackets,
because the tracks aren't really shaped in a figure of eight at all),
but obviously no NASCAR type ovals.

However, your post did remind me of something else...a fantasy track
that I played in the computer game NASCAR Racing 2003 Season. I can't
remember the name of the track - it was a road course, with left and
right turns, but in a very simple layout with all of the corners being
long continous radius bends with long straightaways in
between....however, the track was very wide and all of the corners had
Daytona-esque banking! The corners were so gentle that you were flat out
the whole way round and I even think it may have been set up to run
under restictor plate rules. The cool thing is that, a car that was on
the high side for one turn, would be on the low side for the next! So
that was something different. It probably could be done in real life,
although I'd rather see another proper road course on the schedule first
(Montreal and Road America, pretty please?) but it's still a great
example of the way virtual reality allows us to enjoy that which we
would not normally be able to.


  283.   BurningThunder posted:
  06.01.2012 - 1:20 am
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You know it's bad when T.J. Bell in the 32 is legitimately 5 laps off
the pace of Danica. Way to buy your way into the 600.


  284.   Spen posted:
  06.01.2012 - 3:10 am
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You people are all making me feel old. I was long out of high school
when Pac-Man came out.

Regarding Indy's low attendence, Danica's absence could be a major
factor. She was pretty much the only thing keeping casual fans
interested in Indycar, and without her, we're back to just the serious
fans. Which isn't alltogether a bad thing, but it does mean less behinds
in the seats.


  285.   LordLowe posted:
  06.01.2012 - 7:29 am
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Another Mario Kart Track that NASCAR should consider Building is the
Bowsers Castle Course (any console version of this track will do)


  286.   LordLowe posted:
  06.01.2012 - 7:30 am
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How about building a track in the shape of a octagon with different
degrees of banking in each of the turns.


  287.   cjs3872 posted:
  06.01.2012 - 1:47 pm
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Has anyone noticed that, with the exception of the Bud Shootout, that,
just as I predicted before the season started, every one of the biggest
races on the circuit so far this year has been won by a driver that has
won that particular race previously. Matt Kenseth won the Daytona 500,
which he won in 2009. Brad Keselowski won the spring race at Talladega,
which he also won in 2009. Jimmie Johnson won the Southern 500, which he
won in 2004.

And Kasey Kahne, who won the Coca-Cola 600, had won that race, not just
once, but twice previously, thus becoming just eighth three-time winner
of the 600, joining a group that includes the likes Buddy Baker, David
Pearson, Bobby Allison, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., Jeff Gordon, Jimmie
Johnson, the only three-time consecutive winner, and Darrell Waltrip,
the only man ever to win the 600 more than three times. Of those,
Pearson, Allison, Earnhardt, and Waltrip are all enshrined in the NASCAR
Hall of Fame, and Gordon and Johnson are locks when they becine eligible.

That means that only Baker, who I think willl have to wait a long time
to get into the NASCAR Hall of Fame, if he ever gets in, and Kahne may
not get in among those that have won the 600 three times. But then
again, who knows how many races Kahne might win, as he's only 32. But
the 600 is the only big races Kahne has ever won. And although Baker won
only 19 times, he was just the fourth driver to win the sport's career
Grand Slam, something that even Cale Yarborough, Bill Elliott, Mark
Martin, and new Hall of Fame electee Rusty Wallace couldn't accomplish,
nor has Tony Stewart. The only ones to win NASCAR's career Grand Slam
before Baker were Richard Petty, David Pearson, and Bobby Allison.

But back to my original thought in this post, who among the previous
winners of the Brickyard 400 will win the event this year, since the big
races have all been won by drivers who had won them before? Will it be
Kevin Harvick or Paul Menard from RCR, Jamie McMurray from Ganassi's
team, which would exactly duplicate what Ganassi did at Indy in 2010,
with the same two drivers, two-time Brickyard winner Tony Stewart,
three-time Brickyard winner Jimmie Johnson joining the speedway's
immortals as a four-time winner at Indy, or Jeff Gordon, who is a
four-time winner at the Brickyard carving a special place in American
motorsports history as the first-ever five-time winner on the oval at
IMS? Whch of those previous Brickyard 400 winners is most likely to
complete the cycle this year? (I conveniently didn't mention Bobby
Labonte, since he's with an uncompetitve team.)


  288.   Spen posted:
  06.01.2012 - 2:01 pm
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I'd lean towards either Johnson or Tony winning the Brickyard. Ganassi's
almost as uncompetitive as JTG-Daugherty right now, and RCR seems to be
getting worse by the week. And as for Gordon, well, let's just say that
it's not his year.

Buddy will get into the HOF. Winning all the majors, plus being known to
the newer generation of fans as an announcer, pretty much guarentees him
a spot. It probably won't happen before he turns 80, but he will get in.
(Assuming the Hall stays open long enough.)


  289.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 2:20 pm
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NR2003 is the best computer racing game there is. Of course NASCAR took
the money and gave EA Sports the exclusive NASCAR gaming rights for
their crappy games. Luckily they have websites with updates and awesome
mods (the AeroWar88 is just spectacular). And some of the tracks they
come up with? Wow.

My personal favorite fictional track is a track called "Riverside". It
is a road course based in Southern California that has awesome high
speed areas incleing a set of esses you can practically run wide open
through. Can you imagine if that track were real and drivers like Tim
Richmond could have run there, tearing through those esses, kicking up
dirt, sliding all over the place on those old bias ply tires? Wait,
what? It did exist once? For 30 years? And they tore it down to build
some strip malls? God Bless America >_>

And cjs, the answer to your question is easy. It will be Jeff Gordon,
and his Brickyard win will be either the 2nd or 3rd of his 3 win Summer
tear that gets him in to the playoffs which he will win. Oh yeah, I am
not bailing out on my pick.

Now enough of this talk about the boring laborious Brickyard 400, let's
talk about the fun video game tracks. Anyone else ever play FZero?


  290.   martin-n-rusty posted:
  06.01.2012 - 2:51 pm
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265. Not only that, if NASCAR stripped off the plates, and a car went
flying into the grandstands, you know what would happen? The fans would
complain about why NASCAR didn't do something about it before hand


  291.   LordLowe posted:
  06.01.2012 - 4:17 pm
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Speaking of Nostalgic games anyone here play Legend of Zelda Ocarina of
Time one of the best Games of all time


  292.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 5:18 pm
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Watching this Truck race where Cup driver Kevin Busch is making a
mockery of it in his RCR Truck.

BOR

ING

Also, I saw a headline saying "DuPont unveils special paint scheme". And
I thought "there it is, they are finally gonna unveil the throwback
rainbow car to truly celebrate their 20 years with Jeff". Nope.
Seriously, are they REALLY gonna go the entire 20th year without running
the rainbow car? Also, is Miller Beer really gonna miss the chance to
capitolize on Rusty's HOF induction and not run the old back and gold
MGD car? Newsflash sponsors: WE LOVE THROWBACK SCHEMES!!!!!

Also there is an article about Danica on ESPN's website that will make
you dislike her even more. She even calls Johanna Long "young and
insecure" cause she won't doll herself up, pose in a bikini, and only
wants to be known as a racer. She and her Dad also prettymuch brag about
how they beat th system to get her top rides and sponsors despite not
having success. Ugh.

Also, John Wrecks Weekly just spun. Better give him a breathalyzer test.


  293.   Eric posted:
  06.01.2012 - 6:45 pm
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I am not a bit surprised about Danica Patrick's statement about Johanna
Long. I remembered Danica doing a pose years ago and I remembered her
not regretting it and saying it to the extent that it helped her career.
She always rubbed me wrong with her personality though.


  294.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 7:00 pm
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C'Mon rain, pour on Dover. I'd rather see a damn Bodine win than a Cup
guy in another minor league event.


  295.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 7:11 pm
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The lesser of two evils just played out in my mind, and I am happy a
Bodine won. Over an RCR vehicle. It is a cold day in Hell lol.


  296.   1995 Subaru WRX STi posted:
  06.01.2012 - 7:53 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

"NR2003 is the best computer racing game there is. Of course NASCAR took
the money and gave EA Sports the exclusive NASCAR gaming rights for
their crappy games."

You should (if you have a Youtube account) sub to a guy called Cynon44.
he runs something called the "TM Master Cup series". Its very good to
watch but you'll just have to except the fact that it is "F1 rules with
NASCAR bodies." NASCAR Thunder series wasn't too bad, IMHO 2003 was the
best of the series. Hey, the NASCAR game came out last year, EA Sports
did better.

"Anyone else ever play FZero?"

I have DSFF. The first one ever made through GX.

"Speaking of Nostalgic games anyone here play Legend of Zelda Ocarina of
Time one of the best Games of all time"

I have and beat it (toke me 50 hours the first time through). But it
isn't the Greatest Game Of All Time, that is the first Mario game on the
NES. Without that game, there are NO video games in America today. Saved
the industry.

"265. Not only that, if NASCAR stripped off the plates, and a car went
flying into the grandstands, you know what would happen? The fans would
complain about why NASCAR didn't do something about it before hand"

Yep. Yes. Agreed. Mhm. etc, etc, etc. +1


  297.   LordLowe posted:
  06.01.2012 - 8:10 pm
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DSFF what Mortal Kombat Fatality would you give Danica


  298.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 9:50 pm
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LordLowe, gotta go with a classic, the Scorpion fire breather, with that
dude sticking his head out from the corner saying "Toasty!".


  299.   Red posted:
  06.01.2012 - 10:16 pm
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Here's a track idea: Combine America's two legendary speedways, Daytona
and Indy, into one hybrid oval. It would have turns 1 and 2 and the
backstretch from Indy, and turns 3 and 4 plus the trioval from Daytona
as the front straight. A track like that would provide one hell of a
setup challenge, with 9 degree banking on one end and 31 degree banking
on the other. Plus, the speeds would be just slow enough that restrictor
plates wouldn't be required.

cjs, I think you're on an island with your continued obsession with big
races. The reason we often see repeat winners of big races is because,
get this, they take place on the same tracks every year. Once a driver
masters a track, he usually stays good at it, and thus will keep winning
there. But it has very little to do with the "bigness" of the race. In
the case of Kasey Kahne, he's always been his best at 1.5 mile tracks,
so it's so surprise he has multiple wins at Charlotte, some of which are
bound to be in the 600. The fact is, you're more likely than not to see
a repeat winner at EVERY track on the circuit. Jimmie Johnson is a
favorite to win Dover this weekend because he's had a ton of success
there in the past. No different than Kasey at Charlotte.

I apologize if I'm misinterpreting the intention of your post, but the
implication that it takes a certain pedigree to win big races, and thus
win them multiple times, is a logical fallacy, especially when you
consider that the repeat track winner phenomenon exists at every venue
on the circuit, regardless of how "big".


  300.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.01.2012 - 11:10 pm
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"Once a driver masters a track, he usually stays good at it, and thus
will keep winning there. But it has very little to do with the "bigness"
of the race. In the case of Kasey Kahne, he's always been his best at
1.5 mile tracks, so it's so surprise he has multiple wins at Charlotte,
some of which are bound to be in the 600. The fact is, you're more
likely than not to see a repeat winner at EVERY track on the circuit."

Thank you for saying it better than I can. That is exactly how I feel.
As I've said in the past, the vast majority of drivers records in "big
races" are easily explainable. Like Rusty. Considering his overall
record at Daytona/Dega, Darlington, and Charlotte it should be no
surprise he has a grand total of one major win from those tracks (the
1990 Coke 600) considering he has two total career wins at those tracks
(the other one being a Fall Charlotte race).

And were it not for his "Earnhardt in the Daytona 500" luck in the
Brickyard 400, he would have won that race a few times. Between drivers
coming on late (Labonte in '00, like Jarrett did to Earnhardt in the
1993 Daytona 500), hanging on like hell late trying to outlast a
superior car (Bill in '02, like 1996 version of the Dale and Dale Show),
or just rotten luck (1995, honestly one of the most brutal "Big Race"
losses ever, not quite on the 1990 Daytona 500 level, but close) he just
couldn't quite get it. But his good runs there are no surprise because
of his incredible record at Pocono.


  301.   cjs3872 posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:01 am
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Red, I don't necessarily have an obsession with the big races, or big
sporting events in other sports, but I do keep track of their history.
And one thing about the losses suffered by some of the greats at those
events is proof that the gods control the outcome of the big events. Why
else has no Andretti won the Indianapolis 500 since 1969, the year Mario
won it, or that guys like Phil Mickelson and Sam Snead never won the
U.S. Open, or Arnold Palmer and Tom Watson never won the PGA
Championship, or why Greg Norman had so many heartbreaks in the major
championships. Sometimes sporting events, especialy big sporting events
are decided by a higher power. Last year's World Series is a prime
example. And you say that once a driver masters a track, he usually
stays good at it. That's not necessarily true, either. A prime example
of this is Jeff Gordon.

Gordon was once dominant at Charlotte, winning four times at Charlotte
from 1994-'99 (not to mention three All-Star Race wins from 1995-2001),
but has won only once in his last 25 starts there (the 500-mile race in
in the fall of 2007), and has rarely even sniffed the lead in that span.
And there are other examples of this involving just Gordon. In fact,
most of his recent wins have come at places where he was not successful
early in his career, and there are multiple tracks where he hasn't won
in over a decade. And his most recent win, at Atlanta last Labor Day
weekend, was his first there in nine years. And he's not been competitve
on the road courses, which he once owned, for nearly five years now.

But Red, you're right about Kahne being his best at the 1.5 mile tracks,
but he's been particularly deadly in the 600 for one reason, and that is
that he conserves his equipment. Kahne is not a hard charger. He's won
the 600 three times, but he's currently never won any other single race
more than once. But I believe there's a reason only one driver has ever
won that race more than three times, and that's the grueling nature of
it. Some drivers can handle and prepare for that extra 100 miles, and
others can't. And it varies at differing points in their careers. But
the big sporting events, not just the big auto races, take on their own
individual personality.

For instance, last year, there was a run on first-time winners in big
sporting events, and I use golf and motorsports in this example. Only
one man won one of the big evets last year that had won it before, and
that was Dan Wheldon, and he wouldn't have won Indy last year if the
gods hadn't intervened at the last possible moment. Every other winner
in a marquee event won it for the first time. You look at all the big
races so far this year, the Daytona 500 (Matt Kenseth), the spring race
at Talladega (Brad Keselowski), the Southern 500 (Jimmie Johnson), the
All-Star Race (Jimmie Johnson), the Indianapolis 500 (Dario Franchitti),
the Coca-Cola 600 (Kasey Kahne), and the Monaco Grand Prix (Mark
Webber), and every one of those marquee events have one thing in common
this year. They were all won by a driver that had won that event
previously. And in the big events in May, there was a run on three-time
winners, as the All-Star Race (Jimmie Johnson), the Indianapolis 500
(Dario Franchitti), and the Coca-Cola 600 (Kasey Kahne) were all won by
a driver that won the event for a third time.

Yes Red, you're correct that once a driver and team get their hands on a
track or a particular event, they keep it for a while, but it's not
permanent. But the run of repeat winners in the biggest motorsports
events this year also proves Jackie Stewart's theory about guys knowing
how to win big races, and that's something that has to be learned, and
that comes through time. All the guys that have won those races know how
to win them, but look at some of the guys that have come up short in
them this year. Greg Biffle at Daytona and Charlotte, Takuma Sato at
Indy, and Denny Hamlin at Charlotte. In the case of Biffle and Hamlin,
they've won plenty of races (Hamlin's won 19 and Biffle 17), but there's
a difference between winning a race and winning a big race, and Hamlin
and Biffle, although each has won the Southern 500, neither has won a
big race at the showcase tracks.

That's what made last year so shocking, because the big ones were mostly
won by unproven drivers driving for, in some cases, small teams (and in
one case, a rookie driver driving for a part-time team in the sport's
biggest event of all). This year is going more according to form when it
comes to the big races, which I think is Red's point. There are really
six things that can build up a driver's resume. Five of them are
victories in the big events, and the other of course, is a championship,
which takes a different kind of ability than it does to win even a big
race, because you need to be good everywhere to win a championship.


  302.   18fan posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:20 am
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I would like to know who you guys think are legitimate title contenders
based on performance so far. I would say Biffle, Kenseth, Junior,
Hamlin, Kyle Busch, Johnson, Stewart, Hamlin, Keselowski, and Kahne.


  303.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:25 am
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A counterpoint to the Gordon at Charlotte argument is that he simply put
up such astonishing numbers from '94-'99, he has had a similar fall off
at every track. That is just the nature of having that kind of run.
Except for Martinsville and Talladega (and maybe another track or two
that isn't coming to mind at the moment) his numbers at ALL the tracks
that have been around since 1994 have fallen off. When you win 49 races
in six years, you are bound to have that. Hell, even with all that said,
his numbers from 2000 to present would be enough to get him into the
Hall of Fame (a championship, two heartbreaking runnerups, a Daytona
500, 2 Brickyard 400s, and 36 total wins).

But looking at his pre and post 1999 numbers, he won at Darlington 5
times pre '99, and twice since (although it has been reduced to one race
per year, thank you Brian). He had 4 Bristol wins, and one since. 4
Daytona wins, two since. 3 Pocono wins, two since. 3 Atlanta wins, 2
since. Etc. I guess the road courses have stayed steady until recently,
but again, he has fallen off everywhere since 2007 ended due to injuries
and a rules package that hasn't agreed with him until last year. 4 wins
in the 4 years since.


  304.   Eric posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:28 am
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I said it on Rusty's driver's page in the past that Plate Racing was his
biggest weakness.

There is a reason Rusty's lacks of wins at Charlotte. Mile and half
track was not the type of tracks besides plate races. Rusty did not hit
the 550 cup start mark before 2001. That means he had multiple chances
at mile and a half tracks for Texas, Las Vegas, and Homestead while in
his prime while those tracks were still brand new for cup racing at the
time. The fact Rusty had 4 mile and half wins says something about him
as a driver. I don't know how much you can blame Robin Pemberton despite
the fact I thought he was one the most overrated crew chiefs I seen for
cup racing.

Rusty was strong at tracks a mile or less, Road Course, Michigan, and
Pocono. It wasn't a shock that Rusty almost won at Indy Multiple times.
If he went there sooner, I think he would have a race there. Rusty
Winning a race at Auto Club Speedway isn't a shock since it was similar
to Michigan.


  305.   cjs3872 posted:
  06.02.2012 - 1:59 am
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You're right about Gordon's stats falling off at most tracks, DSFF,
especially when it comes to wins, but his overall performance has fallen
off at Charlotte, which is why I used that for evidence that once you
hit it on a certain track, you don't always keep it. Sure, the wins
aren't there at places like Martinsville, Darlington, and the plate
tracks, but the overall performance hasn't dropped off at those places
for the most part. However, Gordon's two performances at Darlington
since Alan Gustafson became his crew chief are the two worst since his
first two years on the circuit, and his performance on the road courses
hasn't been good at all in the last four years. And until last year, he
hadn't been a dominant factor at Indy in years, though he had been
consistent there. But for the most part, I wasn't talking about his
numbers at places like Charotte as much as I was referring to his
overall performance.

But like I've often said, Gordon's career is looking so much like Bobby
Allison's in terms of numbers that it's scary. Gordon, like Allison, has
won 85 races in the Cup series, but never more than seven at any one
track. But Gordon is NASCAR's most versatile driver since Allison, and
the way he's spread his victories around, winning many times on every
kind of track the circuit races on is what separates him from even
Jimmie Johnson.

And your point about the wrecks he's had is also a good one. In fact, I
wonder if his lack of performance this year (he's run worse than a lot
of people say he has, especially at the bigger tracks) has something to
do with his rollover crash in the Shootout earlier this year, the first
time he's been upside down in his 20 seasons in the Cup series.


  306.   Spen posted:
  06.02.2012 - 4:06 am
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18fan: For the ligit title contenders, there's Jimmie Johnson. Everyone
else is just kidding themselves. But on the off chance they manage to
throw it away, Kenseth and Hamlin are the ones I would expect to be
there at the end. Outside chance for Biffle or Stewart, and possibly
Kahne (I'm going to wait 'till the Brickyard to make any firm judgements
about where his season's going.) Busch, Junior and Keselowski I don't
see doing more than making the chase. Kyle's got to get back to 2008
form on mile-and-a-halfs if he's ever going to make a serious run for
the title, Junior has to win something before I take him seriously
again, and Brad's going to have the same problem that Kahne had in '09
comes chase time: driving for a lame duck manufacturer.


  307.   LordLowe posted:
  06.02.2012 - 7:05 am
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I never Thought I'd see the day that DSFF would be supporting a Bodine
Victory


  308.   JG24FanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 8:28 am
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

cjs3872

I have to disagree with you and still say that Gordon is the modern
Richard Petty with the enormous number of records he holds

examples:

Wins 85 times
Poles 71 times
Times Led Most 90 times
Back-Back wins 22 times
Most wins in a season 6 times
Most poles in a season 6 times
Most Laps led in a season 6 times
13 wins in a season
26 Top fives in a season
30 Top 10's in a season
led the league in Laps Led,Wins and Poles(Triple Crown)a record 4 times
5 straight years with the most wins
9 straight years with a Crown Jewel win(nobody else has more than 4
straight)
4 consecutive Crown Jewel wins
20 Crown Jewel wins
61 Superspeedway wins-5 straight
9 Road Course wins-6 straight(as many as Petty's total)
288 Top 5's
17 consecutive Top 5's
12 Plate wins-4 times he's won back-back
He's the only Pepsi sponsored driver just like Petty in his day hahaha!



  309.   cjs3872 posted:
  06.02.2012 - 8:37 am
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JG24FanForever, where did I say that Gordon wasn't the greatest driver
in modern stock car racing history? That's because, as you say,
statistics say otherwise. What I said was that his career and Bobby
Allison's are beginning to parrallel in several repects, including the
fact that both have 85 career wins, but neither won, or in Gordon's
case, has won more than seven times at any one track. Another parrallel
is that they were their era's most successful drivers in the sport's
biggest events. In fact, Gordon and Allison are the only drivers ever to
win each of the sport's crown jewel races at least three times (there
were four in Allison's day and five now). And Gordon is the sport's most
versatile driver since Allison, which is backed up by the high number of
wins at every style of race track, something that separates Gordon from
Jimmie Johnson among this generation's top stars. And now, Gordon's
catching up with Allison, if not surpassing him, in another, more
unfortunate area, which is big crashes. In the last six years of his
career (1983-'88), Allison had bad crashes at Daytona, Talladega, and
Pocono. Since 2006, Gordon has had bad crashes at Pocono, Las Vegas,
Watkins Glen, and Daytona.


  310.   JG24FanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 8:47 am
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I've got something for you cjs3872

I've devised a Modern era only statistical production scale you might
like that's really simple to understand.

12 points for a championship
7 points for the Daytona 500
5 points for Crown Jewels
3 points for normal wins
.5 a point for second place finishes
.5 a point for winning a pole
.5 a point for leading the most laps in a race

Top 6 total point scorers

1. Jeff Gordon 460
2. Dale Earnhardt 424
3. Darrell Waltrip 401
4. Cale Yarborough 357.5
5. Richard Petty 315
6. Jimmie Johnson 306

how about that?


  311.   10andJoe posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:42 pm
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Dover update: Mike Skinner's #52 withdrew after a practice crash.


  312.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 12:56 pm
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You and me both LordLowe lol. Those damn smart mouth Yankee bastards.

One last thought for the "big race" discussion. What if the Martinsville
races were considered "big races"? How would that change things? Not too
far fetched if you think about it. The track is older than NASCAR and
has been on the schedule every single year. And it has a trophy that
every driver covets: the Clock. But if that were the case, would we see
Bobby Allison as a big race choker? He never won there (the biggest
fluke stat in NASCAR history just ahead of Cale never winning the 600).
Would we see Rusty as a big race master? Seven wins! How about Darrell
Waltrip? He shattered the World 600 record with 5, but has just one fuel
mileage Daytona 500 win and one fluke rain shortened Southern 500 win
(made even more curious by his 4 Spring race wins). But those 11 paper
clip wins? How would that change his perception as a big race driver?

Of course some people would remain the same. Richard Petty would still
be The King (15 wins). Earnhardt, Gordon, and JJ would also remain
exactly where they are already at: legends.

I guess my point is this speaks to the arbitrary nature of "big races".
You can't put too much into certain races. It is about a whole career.
Total wins, versatility of wins, the span of time you are a winner, and
most importantly championships and the number of times you had a shot at
the title and brought home the hardware. Divide this by your
circumstances, the strength of the teams you are driving for (sorry HMS
drivers) and that is how a career is judged.


  313.   JG24FanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 7:54 pm
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"Divide this by your circumstances, the strength of the teams you are
driving for (sorry HMS drivers) and that is how a career is judged."

Hendrick before Gordon

32 wins
0 Championships

Hendrick after 9 seasons with Jeff Gordon 1993-2001

103 wins(58 by Gordon 13 by Terry labonte and Ricky Rudd and Jerry Nadeau)
5 Title's-4 straight

Gordon was a natural who put and end to Earnhardt's streak of titles in
only his 3rd season against someone far more experienced, and to boot he
won 4 straight Southern 500's.

even Rusty Wallace has said "Gordon made Hendrick not the other way
around".


  314.   JG24FanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 8:03 pm
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and if i'm correct Gordon has also made Johnson too

Gordon and Hendrick started a team together and put him in the car
almost by chance,Gordon landed the Lowe's sponsorship,Gordon appointed
Chad Knaus as Crew Chief to the Team, and on top of that Johnson was
JG's protege for a number of years before becoming absolute Master.


  315.   Eric posted:
  06.02.2012 - 10:53 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

JG24FanForever,
Yours stats on HMS doesn't tell the whole story before Jeff Gordon. You
need to look at the driver HMS had before Jeff.

Geoff Bodine was the first driver to win races for Rick, but he also had
problems finishing races do to him being too aggressive for his own good.

Tim Richmond was supposed by the driver to give Rick his first
Championship, but his wild side off the track gave him aids. If Tim
didn't get aids, it is possible that Dale wouldn't have won as many
Championships as he did.

Darrell Waltrip went to HMS on the downside of his great career. Darrell
was already slowing down as a driver by the time he went to HMS despite
winning 9 in 4 years there at HMS. Darrell was 40 when he raced his
first race at HMS.

Benny Parsons did a respectable job for HMS considering it was first
year full time since 1981 and being the replacement for Tim Richmond.
The problem was HMS got Benny at his 2nd to last season of cup racing
with Benny being 46 in 1987.

Ricky Rudd and Ken Schrader were not championship driver. Ricky was a
very good driver, but not a driver that is going to win a championship.
Kenny was a very solid driver for HMS and had some bad luck that cost
him like 6 to 10 wins according to Ken many years.

Rick Hendrick's real problem was Tim Richmond was the only driver he had
was good enough to win a champion by how I mentioned of all the drivers
Rick had full time before Jeff Gordon.


  316.   DaleSrFanForever posted:
  06.02.2012 - 11:32 pm
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Gordon might have made Johnson, but Johnson OWNS Gordon.


  317.   JG24FanForever posted:
  06.03.2012 - 12:24 am
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hahaha!
agreed


  318.   MarkMartinFan posted:
  08.13.2012 - 12:30 am
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If I remember correctly, when I watched this race on trackpass, most
drivers were complaining about Danica being a moving road block.


  319.   Nate posted:
  12.28.2012 - 1:11 pm
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Clint Bowyer led 00 laps. The Modifier should remove one of the zeros.


  320.   ch posted:
  07.18.2013 - 3:38 pm
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#26 Sponsor: MDS Transport (consistent with all 2012/2013 starts)


  321.   Altracing posted:
  12.13.2018 - 8:08 pm
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Tony Stewart got spun on pit road by Keselowski during green flag pit
stops in the middle of the race when Keselowski was exiting his pit and
Stewart was exiting his.


  322.   Altracing posted:
  12.13.2018 - 8:11 pm
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^ Actually Tony was trying to enter his pit my mistake


  323.   Rich posted:
  12.19.2020 - 10:38 pm
   Rate this comment:      (0)      (0)

Mike Joy, Larry McReynolds and Darrell Waltrip were the commentators.
Dr. Dick Berggren, Steve Byrnes, Matt Yocum and Krista Voda were the pit
road reporters. Jeff Hammond was the roving reporter. Chris Myers and
Michael Waltrip were in the Hollywood hotel.


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