|| *Comments on the 2012 Lenox Industrial Tools 301:* View the most recent comment <#434> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Talon64 posted: 07.13.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch picks up his 9th career Cup Series pole, 1st of 2012 and the 5th straight season that he's won a pole. It's his first Loudon pole, but the 2nd time he'll start from pole there since he started 1st in 2008 due to qualifying being rained out. Kyle Busch has finished in the top 3 the last 6 times he's started from pole, including 3 wins. Toyota make up 4 of the top 5 spots in qualifying, while Hendrick cars fill up the remaining 6 spots in the top 10. 2. LordLowe posted: 07.13.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had a dream a few days ago that Jeff Gordon dominated this race until his bad luck struck once again as he was leading the race coming to the white flag he ran out of fuel. 3. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, quit dreaming about bull-#@#$. We in JG fandom know better than that... He is going to dominate and lose because NASCAR will throw a caution flag because Casey Mears ran 30.1 second lap. 4. 10andJoe posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) - Stephen Leicht's 10th Cup start. (Also his 8th race of the season, making him ineligible for future ROTY attempts, should he bail on this season's.) - Regan Smith's 150th Cup start - Juan Pablo Montoya's 200th Cup start 5. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Will you 24 fans stop this non sense! We all know Wile E Coyote Jeff Gordon is gonna dominate and lose cause after his final pit stop, as he is leaving pit road, it will start pouring rain even though the sky will be totally clear leaving the win to Brad K who will run 15th-18th all day, but stretch his fuel and stay out as long as possible. And two seconds after NASCAR announces the race has been called, it will immediately quit raining and the sun will dry the track in 20 minutes with 4 hours of daylight left. Any rational person knows this is how it will go down :) 6. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a serious note, we lost Davey Allison 19 years ago today. Fitting, cause it is the weekend of New Hampshire, the site of his final race, a race he had won until Michael Waltrip (of all people) lost a hubcap causing a legitimate debris caution late. Davey got beat out of the pits by Rusty's superhuman pit crew (seriously, watch a race from '93 sometime and watch how many spots he made up under each yellow flag) and his car was a long run car. The telecast ends with a heart wrenching in retrospect interview with Davey talking about how much he is looking forward to racing here in '94 and saying hey to his kids. Also, he had 19 career wins. In just 6 and 1/2 seasons. In NASCAR's era where winning was the most difficult (29 races, fields stacked with legends in their primes in equipment capable of winning, no welfare rules meaning you had to be on it from green flag to checkered flag to win). In an era where drivers didn't just come in and start winning a lot. To this day, he still holds the record for fewest starts needed to win twice. By comparison, in Earnhardt's first 6 and 1/2 seasons he won just 9 times. Dale Jr just got his 19th win a few weeks ago in his 13th season. Kevin Harvick, in his 12th season, will only tie Davey with his next win. Tony Stewart had 19 wins at the end of 6 seasons, and didn;t get win #20 until the next summer. So considering he was competing in 36 race seasons, that says something. He was also just 32, just entering a driver's traditional prime (early 30's to early 40's). Not to cut short the fact he died at a horribly young age with two very young kids, but he had a lot left to accomplish on track. We miss ya Davey. 7. cjs3872 posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, that's no longer the rule regarding Rookie of the Year. The rule regarding Rookie of the Year eligibility since NASCAR went tobthe rule saying a driver can only score points in one series is that as long as a driver has not yet declared that he'll score points in the Cup series, he remains eligible for Rookie of the Year, no matter how many races he starts. For instance, despite the fact that he'l run over 30 races in two years, and that he's won the Daytona 500, I believe Trevor Bayne is still eligible to run for Rookie of the Year honors, and so is Danica Patrick, despite the fact she's running 10 races this year. The old rule regarding a limit to a number of races a driver can start in any given year to be eligible to run for Rookie of the Year at a later time no longer applies. 8. Anonymous posted: 07.13.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, but Leicht is declared for Cup this year. 9. 10andJoe posted: 07.13.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >10andJoe, that's no longer the rule regarding Rookie of the Year. The rule regarding Rookie of the Year eligibility since NASCAR went tobthe rule saying a driver can only score points in one series is that as long as a driver has not yet declared that he'll score points in the Cup series, he remains eligible for Rookie of the Year, no matter how many races he starts. As Anon#8 pointed out, Leicht /is/ running for Cup points this year, and has registered for ROTY. I'm assuming that the old "7 races or fewer" rule remains in effect for drivers who ARE running for Cup points. 10. 10andJoe posted: 07.13.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also: First career Cup start for Kelly Bires. 11. cjs3872 posted: 07.13.2012 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes he is running for points, 10andJoe. Now in that case, you're right, the seven start rule does still exist, but I thought you meant for ALL drivers, whether they've signed up for Cup or not. In fact, it's that new wrinkle in the rules that was made last year that makes Josh Wise eligible this year, since he ran 10 Cup races last year, but ran the Nationwide Series, and did fairly well when he drove Dale, Jr.'s #7 car. In fact, he did better than Danica did in the #7 car his starts and often outperformed curent Richard Petty Motorsports Cup driver Aric Almirola, who was a teammate last year. Speaking of Wise, there may be as many as nine start-and-parks in this Cup race, including all eight that had to qualify on time. TBR's #36 team may also do a S&P, which would make it nine S&P's. I wonder if Baldwin's #36 team is doing start-and-parks, not just for sponsorship reasons, but also to protect the #10 car in a number of these races so that Danica Patrick does not have to qualify on time. If that's a reason, he doesn't have to worry any more, since there's now a two-race gap between 35th and 36th in owner points, and that figures to only widen, since all those running full schedules below 35th in points are S&P's. The only ones that are below 35th in owner points that try to run the full races are the Wood Brothers' #21 car and the #33 when Richard Childress and not Joe Falk is running things. In other words, there will probably only be 35-37 cars trying to run the distance in most of the remaining races, and it might be fewer than 35 in a few races. 12. Baker posted: 07.13.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Jimmie Johnson out front all day long leading over half the race. 13. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.13.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Baker, Jeff Gordon is gonna lead half the race in his Acme Corporation DuPont Drive To End Hunger Chevy. But in the end, this will happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_bjaI0NTo 14. LordLowe posted: 07.13.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AJ Allmendinger for being a Junkie and screwing up your career you are this weeks Worst Person in The NASCAR WORLD. 15. Billy Bad Butt posted: 07.13.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne and Kyle Busch had an incident at this track in 2005. Kahne was dumped by Busch in turn two, and Kahne expressed his displeasure under caution by swerving into Busch in turn four. I just thought it an interesting factoid considering they both start on the front row. 16. 10andJoe posted: 07.13.2012 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the S&Ps: it's possible the #79 might try to go the distance. Since this is their home track. 17. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.13.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I could see the 18 and 11 being contenders come race day. Either the 48 or 24 will likely mix it up with those guys though. I'm also curious to see how Sam Hornish can do in the #22 without the bad luck of crashing in a restrictor plate race. I like Dinger but I gotta say, I think this is the beginning of the end of his NASCAR tenure. 18. Ed posted: 07.14.2012 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) AJ still has 2 strikes left (which, believe it or not, is fewer than Kurt Busch or Brian Vickers) 19. Eric posted: 07.14.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, I don't know about calling aj a junkie yet if AJ is telling the truth on what made him fail the test. What he should accused of is not checking what is in medications or supplements he is taking. What is known for sure is AJ claimed that a stimulant made him fail the test. It is possible that the stimulant came from as one of the ingredients found in a medication. The other thing is I having been reading that fuel in a bottle is far above most others on the market in the combination of ingredients. The question would be if those ingredients are really capable of making a person fail a random drug test. If an energy drink caused Allmendinger to flunk his test, it wouldn't the first person that happen to. What I read, an NBA Player last season flunked a random drug test after drinking one energy drink that he bought from a gas station on the way to practice. 20. 10andJoe posted: 07.14.2012 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >In fact, it's that new wrinkle in the rules that was made last year that makes Josh Wise eligible this year, since he ran 10 Cup races last year, Er, actually, he ran four. 21. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 9:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In that case 10andJoe, I don't know where I got 10 from. It could be that he attempted to qualify for as many as 10 races but only made 4. 22. 10andJoe posted: 07.14.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Makes sense - as of the end of 2011 his total starts and DNQs did add up to 10. :) 23. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of S&P's, did anyone notice that close to one-third of the starting field in today's Nationwide Series race did S&P's? 13 of 43 starters were reported out by lap 30 (by which time, there were only 17 cars on the lead lap), and Morgan Shepherd was not far behind them. Now certainly, some of the problem intoday's race has to do with the Trucks being in Iowa, and so their drivers could not come to the races at Loudon, but 13 out of 43 is ridiculous. Add to that the problems that Kyle Busch and Travis Pastrana had, and what you get is a field that my be fewer than 25 cars at the finish. And what was Danica doing by bodyslamming her own teamamte? And RCRandPenskeGuy, Hornish's crash last week would have happened anywhere, as it was the result of a blown tire. 24. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.14.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Could Amber Cope go any slower if she tried? Why is she here and Johanna isn't? It is bad enough the name "Cope" makes me wanna go psycho for obvious reasons. 25. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.14.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I must say, I LOVE the Bristol commercial where they brag about not consulting the drivers, many of whom were very butthurt cause they didn't. Somebody needs to put these divas in their place. 26. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way, speaking of the end of the Nationwide race, does anyone else think it's unusual for some of the younger drivers to be the ones having trouble with stamina? Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. passed out after geting out his car, though he had an excuse, since he had been batling flu-like symptoms for several days. But Brad Keselowski even admitted that he waited a couple of extra minutes before getting out to celebrate his victory because he was being overcome by the heat. Am I missing something, because these younger drivers, who are supposed to be in better shape, should not be having these problems after just 200 miles of racing. Again, Stenhouse had a built-in excuse, but Keselowski certainly did not. And Kevin Harvick was not the only driver that Amber Cope got in the way of. In fact, she wasn't even the only RCR driver she got in the way of. Elliott Sadler ran over her in that same spot (turn one) much earlier in the race. But Cope wasn't what cost Kevin Harvick the race. What cost him was not just Cope, but the two cars side-by-side in front of Cope and Harvick. There was simply nowhere for Harvick to go, much like what happened to Ryan Truex at Dover, s there were slower cars side-by-side blocking the track. And DSFF, if Derrike Cope hadn't won the 1990 Daytona 500 when Earnhardt cut that tire on the final lap, Terry Labonte would have in a much less deserving car than the one Cope drove in that race, which was ironically run in similar conditions to today's Nationwide race, high 80s and humid. Would you ir any other Earnhardt fan had any problem with Labonte winning that race, or even Bill Elliott or Ricky Rudd? After all, they were second, third, and fourth that day back in 1990. 27. 1995 Subaru WRX Sti posted: 07.14.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Bruton Smith lied, he just removed the top groove and left the rest the same. BMS was ruined the moment they ripped asphalt from it. 28. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.14.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't care who wound up winning, that '90 Daytona 500 was brutal. Whoever won would still trigger an "ugh" response. Also, from last week's thread, Harvick is another on who takes personal shots. Yeah Angela had no business out there, but to go after her personally is pretty weak. I guess getting killed year after year after year by JJ will do that to you. 29. 12345Dude posted: 07.14.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't care who wound up winning, that '90 Daytona 500 was brutal. Whoever won would still trigger an "ugh" response. Also, from last week's thread, Harvick is another on who takes personal shots. Yeah Angela had no business out there, but to go after her personally is pretty weak. I guess getting killed year after year after year by JJ will do that to you." Harvick can be a jerk but this time I think he is right in line. It's NASCAR the competition is so high. And you have to expect stuff like that to happen if your going to cost a guy a race. Plus Kevin REALLY wanted to win this race. After Austin Dillion's win at Kentucky win I saw a few interviews from Harvick (who finished second) and he looked destroyed and upset at himself for not winning. A lot more than the average driver would. I'm not completely positive but I think Paul Menard was supposed to run the #33 at Daytona (notice the Menard's sponcership) but instead Kevin asked for the ride. (this race was right after the Kentucky race) In my opinion there are so many drivers and teams in NASCAR that just drive around. And who will never compete for top 15 finishes. Yet they still get to race in the hightly competitive NASCAR. Also look how these lap cars are affecting races...while the guys are multiple laps down. I say you put a 25 car limit in all 3 series. You have to be the best of the best to compete in NASCAR. Just my 2 cents. 30. 10andJoe posted: 07.14.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >13 out of 43 is ridiculous. Part of the problem is that they cut purses in Nationwide last year. At the same time they introduced the new car. Way to go, brainiacs. >In my opinion there are so many drivers and teams in NASCAR that just drive around. And who will never compete for top 15 finishes. Yet they still get to race in the hightly competitive NASCAR. Also look how these lap cars are affecting races...while the guys are multiple laps down. That's Racin'. 31. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.14.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hornish's crash last week would have happened anywhere, as it was the result of a blown tire." Oh yeah, I forgot. All I remembered was that he crashed. This week will be more indicative of Hornish's performance either way. If he'd done well at Daytona, people would likely just say it was because it was a plate race. He did run well at Kansas in a 3rd Penske car earlier this year, so I think he could get a decent finish tomorrow as well. 32. Daniel posted: 07.14.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did T.J. Bell crash his car in practice? I noticed they were running one of the cars John Jackson usually runs and Bell hasn't S&P's this year. 33. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually 12345Dude, despite running on seven cylinders, Kurt Busch, driving brother Kyle's car, finished second to Austin Dillon at Kentucky. Harvick finished third behind Busch. 1995 Subaru WRX STi, they had to pave Bristol with concrete in the early 1990s, because the cars were tearing up the ashpalt, so something had to be done, and the only surface they could think of that could be sturdy enogh to withstand the cars was, and still is concrete. I'll be interested to see what happens at Bristol late next month in the Truck and Nationwide Series races with the top groove gone, which should make it a two-groove track, instead of a three-groove track. The full effect of the change won't be seen in the Cup series until next spring's race there, since the racing will be conservative because of the Bristol night race's place in relation to the Chase cutoff. I just hope it isn't one of those races where 100-130 laps (or maybe even more) are run under caution with 15-20 caution periods and 12-15 healthy cars running, due to all the wrecks. And traffic wil always be a factor in an extended gren flag run to the finish. A perfect case was the 1989 Indianapolis 500, when Al Unser, Jr. and Emerson Fittipaldi ran up on cars at least 10-15 MPH slower twice in the last five laps, and everyone knows what happened there. The problem today was that Amber Cope (not Angela, who also drives) was a moving chicane, causing more than one driver (even multiple drivers from RCR) major difficulties. And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't that same car (#24 NNS) wrecked by the leader at Dover several weeks ago because it was going too slow and was in the way? What NASCAR should have done is to take that car off the track if it is not meeting minimum speed requirements, which I don't think it was, especially at a place where it's next-to-impossible to get out of the way to begin with. At a place like Michigan, Atlanta, Auto Club Speedway, or those wide tracks, you could have a car going 50 MPH slower and not be such a high risk becuase there are places to get out of the way, but if you're 5-10 MPH slower at a place like Loudon, you're a safety risk, because there's no place to go to get out of the way. 34. 1995 Subaru WRX Sti posted: 07.14.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I just hope it isn't one of those races where 100-130 laps (or maybe even more) are run under caution with 15-20 caution periods and 12-15 healthy cars running, due to all the wrecks." You and i don't hope for that but the rest of the human race does. "I'll be interested to see what happens at Bristol late next month in the Truck and Nationwide Series races with the top groove gone, which should make it a two-groove track, instead of a three-groove track." Still a multi groove track, fans want the single groove demo derby. The 24 got in Harvicks way twice, the last one cost him the race. Harvick is right on the money with this one. 35. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not just that 1995 Subaru WRX STi, but the 24 also got in Elliott Sadler's way more than once, and Sadler nearly wrecked Cope on one of those occasions. And again, I think the 24 was the car that Joey Logano spun out at Dover when he was leading there, so that car has had it's issues more than once this year. And Amber Cope got in other drivers' way at different points during the race. And what I'd like to see at Bristol would be two equal lanes, something that was intended when the track wasrecinfigured, meaning that passing on the bottom would be doable, but allow drivers to defend their positions at the same time. That's what made the racing at Martinsville so good prior to the forced repaving that occurred when that pothole in turn three developed in the spring race in 2004. What happened with the reconfiguration at Bistol was that they wanted to create an outside groove and just plain overdid it. I think you'd have a great race if you had two equal grooves, though it would be hard to top the Keselowski-Kenseth duel at Bristol this spring, which was the best mano-on-mano matchup in a short track Cup race in many years. 36. LordLowe posted: 07.14.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Rudder Match between Earnhardt and Rudd took place here back in 1994. 37. cjs3872 posted: 07.14.2012 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And LordLowe, that was the only race at Loudon that Earnhardt ever really had a chance of winning. But unfortunately, that was also the race that told the original owners, Bob and Dick Bahre (who once owned a car in the Cup series that was driven by Geoff Bodine and later road racer Elliott Forbes-Robinson) that there were problems with the track surface, which broke up badly that day. And the track has had intermittent problems with that since then, though there's not been any problems with the surface itself for a number of years now. And getting a little off topic, the just concluded Truck Series race at Iowa showed just what I have been saying about short fuel runs and tire management. James Buescher seemed to have that race won, but was a little too hard on his tires and brakes, and his right front blew while leading. On the other hand, Timothy Peters, a driver known for being easier on his tires, capitalized and won the race. I think was could see something similar happen in the Cup race, but it's not as likely, since they'll only be going about 65-70 laps on fuel. But if they have to go 85-90 laps on fuel, I'll guarantee you'll see tire failures because of drivers pushing it too hard, either on tires or brakes (and Loudon's one of the 3-5 hardest tracks on brakes). 38. JG24FanForever posted: 07.14.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 5 all-time laps led at Louden: 1. Jeff Gordon 1304 2. Tony Stewart 1180 3. Jeff Burton 783 4. Ryan Newman 720 5. Mark Martin 514 6. Clint Bowyer 474 7. Kurt Busch 436 8. Dale Jr. 351 9. Kevin Harvick 319 10. Jimmie J. 317 I hope Gordon's Good Luck streak of 18 straight races begins here. 39. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.14.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, Harvick has just been frustrated from the word go this year. I don't know what is up, but his frustration just seems to keep growing by the week. Running these other races, and getting frustrated in them is not helping. His crankiness just keeps ballooning. 40. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As you guys know, I've been a Harvick fan since he first came in back in 2001. But I totally agree with DSFF's point about him running in the lower series. I really wish he would just concentrate on the Cup car (although, Kevin isn't the only one I wish would do this. Brad, Kyle, Joey, I'm looking at you.) But I do think his annoyance this year isn't entirely his fault. Remember, its essentially a brand new team he's working with (even though those guys were the 33 team in recent years). So I totally expected them to make mistakes. But I think if they get a handle on these mistakes, they can go out and maybe win one or two races before the year is out. They definitely have enough speed, I think. Plus, hopefully the birth of his new son will sort of ease him out a little bit. Anyway, I'm interested to see this race tomorrow. The JGR cars have looked really fast so far this weekend, so I'm expecting them to contend. In fact, I'm fully expecting a JGR vs MWR Toyota showdown, because Truex and Bowyer have also looked good. I'd like to see Martin finally get that long awaited 2nd Cup win. That team is way too good not to win a race this year. Also, I want to give a quick shoutout to Kelly Bires, who is making his Cup debut this weekend. Sure, it is for a Start and Park team. But I'm just glad to see he is still hanging in there trying to make it in the sport. I think he got shafted from the JRM 88 car before he could really show his stuff. I would have liked to have seen them give him more of a chance in that car. So it is cool to see him still out there trying to get another break go his way. 41. ch posted: 07.15.2012 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @Daniel, my first thought was that MAKE Motorsports was putting their limited resources in the truck team this week. Therefore, with their main hauler / crew in Iowa, they just 'rented' Jackson's car. And let's not blame the #24 team. They have preformed fairly well with Benny Gordon and Casey Roderick behind the wheel. It's just that the team is bringing in 'Kevin Conways' with funding but no talent... (AKA the Cope twins, Mosley, and Bainey). The 4 of them have been SO FAR of the pace that they should have been black flagged. 42. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ch, the fact that Casey Roderick was able to run with the leaders at Daytona in that car just proves the point I made last week about anyone being able to run up front there, even in subpar equipment because of the draft. But when multiple drivers are so far off the pace that they should be brought in (and Amber Cope should have been brought in) with the same car, that's proof that the team is at just as much fault as the driver is, and maybe even moreso. Murb, Bowyer and the Gibbs team (at least Kyle Busch and especially Denny Hamlin) should be considered favorites this week, but don't look past the Hendrick duo starting on the fourth row. Jimmie Johnson should be formidable, and this might be Jeff Gordon's last shot at a win for a while, since speed is not as important at Loudon as it will be at places like Indy, Pocono, and Michigan, and he's been terrible at Watkins Glen for years. And Kasey Kahne will factor as well, so Hendrick's got a very good chance to at least contend, and let's not forget Stewart-Haas, as both Steart and Ryan Newman are among the 3-time winners at Loudon with a chance to join Jeff Burton as only the track's second 4-time winner. In fact, there's nothing but Hendrick equipment in starting positions 6-10 for Sunday's race. 43. Spen posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benny Gordon would have had no problem staying out of people's way. There's nothing wrong with being slow - with a car like that, you can't really help it. But at least try to stay well out of the racing line. 44. 12345Dude posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Part of the problem is that they cut purses in Nationwide last year. At the same time they introduced the new car. Way to go, brainiacs." They also increased entry fees by 25 percent. Surprising this hasn't been bigger news and a lot of people don't know about this. "Actually 12345Dude, despite running on seven cylinders, Kurt Busch, driving brother Kyle's car, finished second to Austin Dillon at Kentucky. Harvick finished third behind Busch." Ok thank you. Did not know that. "12345Dude, Harvick has just been frustrated from the word go this year. I don't know what is up, but his frustration just seems to keep growing by the week. Running these other races, and getting frustrated in them is not helping. His crankiness just keeps ballooning." Yeah that's true, good point. But the think is when isn't he cranky or upset? Another thing that hasn't been talked about much around the NASCAR community. Shorter races. I have been saying this one of NASCAR's biggest problems. They need shorter races. Instead of the casual fans watch the last 1/5th of the race they need for them to have their TV on for the whole race. 18 Races Left In 2012 2: 300 Mile Races 8: 400 Mile Races 8: 500 Mile Races NASCAR is definitely thinking about going into a shorter race direction. The next 5 races are 300,400,400,500, & 400 miles. 45. LordLowe posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For whatever reason Earnhardt didn't do all that good at New Hampshire To put it a better way his performances there sucked. 46. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't say Dale "sucked" at NH, but he certainly was never a contender there. But he did crank out some solid finishes. Nothing spectacular or noteworthy, just solid. Looking at his results there, you'd swear he was an RCR driver. The track he "sucked" at was Watkins Glen. 47. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, lots of wrong facts in that. Remaining races Loudon: 301 laps/318 miles Indy: 160 laps/400 miles Pocono: 160 laps/400 miles Glen: 90 laps/220 miles Michigan: 200 laps/400 miles Bristol: 500 laps/267 miles Atlanta: 325 laps/500 miles Richmond: 400 laps/300 miles Chicago: 267 laps/400 miles Loudon: 300 laps/317 miles Dover: 400 laps/400 miles Dega: 188 laps/500 miles Charlotte: 334 laps/500 miles Kansas: 267 laps/400 miles Martinsville: 500 laps/263 miles Texas: 334 laps/500 miles Phoenix: 312 laps/312 miles/500 kilometers Homestead: 267 laps/400 miles 220: 1 300: 2 312/500K: 1 400: 7 500: 7 48. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, with 3 poles, an avg start of 8.3, and an avg fin of 11.5, Earnhardt definitely did not suck at the Glen. He just never won, but neither did Wally Dallenbach. 49. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I understand wanting less laps total over the entire year, but I think that cutting distance of races is not the way to go. I think that the schedule needs to be shortened so it can end in October-ish, not one week before Thanksgiving! Shorter races would make this series nothing more then a more popular 'Nationwide' series. I still say this. Scrap one of Michigan's dates, Make Infenion and Vegas the last two races on the schedule. Ditch the Chase race at New Hampshire, and Like I've said innumerable times before, ditch Chicago totally. And while we're at it, eliminate the spring Dover race, and the spring Richmond race. That track is great and all, but it's not good enough to warrant two races. Just keep it with it's Chase-Deciding date. There. I just cut out four races. That shortens it to 32 race schedule. Shortening races itself is not the solution, just eliminate un-nesscary races is the solution. Especially considering this is the part of the season that most people don't pay much attention to. I don't bother watching Spring Dover, Kentucky, New Hampshire, and the like. Of course, hardly anyone agrees. Everyone wants short races so they get more time staring into their stupid-phones, shuffling their feet and not watching where they are walking as they might gain an extra follower or two on 'Twit'-er. 50. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.15.2012 - 12:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unless it fills up in 10 minutes, looks like a rather sparse crowd at NHMS today, a track that is usually filled up even during the bad economy. 51. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like it filled up. Hopefully we don't see as many commercials as we did during Sonoma or Kentucky. 52. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about Dale at The Glen is the number of unforced errors he committed there. 53. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon is on the move...now look out for the jinx. Nah, I actually don't believe that stuff. 54. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale's most noteworthy performance at the Glen was likely his "It Hurts So Good" pole and run in 1996. 55. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My prediction for Gordon's mishap today: Logano and Newman (or Keselowski and Montoya) pay each other back in front of him, punching in the front of the 24 car and causing KP and Wally to start making animal noises in the booth. 56. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just had a commercial for the Crown Royal Presents The Your Hero's Name Here 400 At The Brickyard. I guarantee you, the forum for that one on here is gonna be a can't miss. We can have race title sponsor jokes and jokes about the bad racing!!!! 57. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So far my predictions about this race were right. 18 is very strong in the early going. 58. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Not anymore. 59. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 18 just came apart, bad pit stop and speeding in 3 segments. Yikes. 60. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's gonna be hard to come back from with this being such a short race. 61. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PRN, I was not aware that 39th came between 28th and 30th. 62. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually that might be the best thing for Kyle. He doesn't do well in races where he is up front for 3/4 of it. 63. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brilliant Kyle, just absolutely brilliant. 64. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hornish is looking good in the 22. Yeah, he's only running 20th. But AJ has basically been running 20th or worse all year. So it is good by that car's standards this year. Caution is out. Definitely a break for the 18. 65. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gustafson strikes again for Wile E Coyote Jeff Gordon. 66. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, There it is. 67. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, actually, that might have been a good move. He's still hanging in with Denny. 68. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mentioning he hasn't won here since '98 is a nice way of saying "he hasn't won since he had Evernham". He isn't falling back at all, but he will have to pit well ahead of the others. Btw, isn't this the only track he hasn't won again at since Evernham left? (Not counting Wilkesboro and Rockingham of course) 69. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OH NO MURB. Believe me he'll start dropping. Johnson will be around him before too long. Gordons car is terrible in the center of the corner as well. 70. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gustafson is an idiot when it comes to pit calls. I remember several races when he was Kyle's crew chief that he made horrible pit calls that cost them races, such as the 2007 Atlanta chase race when he called for 4 tires when everyone else took 2 and Kyle got caught up in the big wreck when Denny Hamlin didn't go on the restart. 71. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, you're right Bon Gordon, there goes Jimmie around him. 72. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But i still think track position is king. He'll drop but not outside of the Top 10 i think. Im more worried about that 20 lap difference in fuel. I knew that caution would be kinda bad for the #24 team. He needs a caution in like 15 laps or so. 73. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact that Gordon is still hanging with Jimmie on worn tires tells me that he's got a very fast race car. Unfortunately, Denny is way ahead and on newer tires than Gordon. Hopefully a caution comes out in the next 10 laps and everybody comes down pit road. 74. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nope i now know how bad luck will strike Gordon and its happened at NHMS before. Gordon will have to pit 20 laps sooner and right before everyone else pits it will be halfway and it will pour down rain the race will eventually be called and Gordon will finish 30th. 75. Baker posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How in the world is Tony so far out to lunch at one of his 3 best tracks? Hopefully Indy and The Glen aren't this bad. 76. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, I thought the same thing when they announced that rain is in the forecast. I just hope it happens after green flag pit stops with (hopefully) a caution and restart. I laughed at Adam Alexander saying how Kyle Busch has matured a little bit every year. Last I checked, that truck race at Texas was just 8 months ago. Though I do think that suspension did scare him. 77. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think what happened to his brother is what scared Kyle the most. 78. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well everyone pitted 5-10 laps sooner than I thought they would. That will help Gordon a little bit as far as tire performance. 79. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just hope that if it rains, we don't have a Logano-esque fluke winner. If it is someone who has been in the top ten all day, then I won't have any problems with it. 80. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) is Gordon saving gas? or is his car fading away? 81. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He's saving fuel. And his tires are older. 82. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2 car is looking good! :D 83. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Knowing who his crew chief is, he probably is saving gas. 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad moving forward. SO DON'T FREAKING SPEED ON PIT ROAD FOR ONCE!!!! 85. Rusty posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race is tough to watch. It is challenging Kentucky for worst of the year. 86. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon takes 4 tires, everybody else takes 2. Track position is going to kill him. We better have a LONG green flag run. 87. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, 24 takes 4 as everyone else takes 2. lol These pit calls really are starting to get laughable. 88. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon: 4 tires -4 spots off pit road. 89. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was gonna say "Holy Cow, Jeff caught a break" then the Road Runner Gustafson put 4 freaking tires on it. So never mind. 90. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe Alan Gustafson should ask himself WWCKD: "What would Chad Knaus do?" when it comes to pit calls. 91. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Prediction: Jeff Gordon does not regain any of the spots he lost and finishes outside the Top 10. 92. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Prediction: Jeff Gordon blast through the field into the lead. 93. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Gordon doesn't have bad luck to ruin a race for him, a bad call is always waiting to take it's f**king place. 94. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This might be the worst track as far as passing goes. 95. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm starting to believe Gordon purposely accepts Crew Chiefs that don't fit his style of racing so he can be pissing in the wind like Bobby Allison was the majority of his career, giving him a one up when he does win or finish in the Top 5. 96. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, what have I been saying all year about Alan Gustafson's ability to call a race, or his lack thereof? His call to keep Gordon out during the first caution was dubious, at best, and his decision to take four tires will only help if there's a caution with about 50 laps to go, and it doesn't rain. Other than that, it will probably cost Gordon five positions in the end. And by the way, we know of the cars that did not intend to go the distance, though there weren't quite as many start-and-parks as we thought. Guys like Wise, Stremme, andMears, I wouldn't classify as start-and-parks, because they all made one pit stop, so they all ran a good distance, then decided to park it for the day. But does anyone know what knocked David Ragan out of the race? 97. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872,name one race that Gustafson attributed a Top 5 finish to Gordon. 98. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch does it again. 99. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am fully anticipating that Alan Gustafson will be kept for another season when he should be canned immediately after the season ends. 100. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh man... Caution... This will get interesting... 101. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny took 4?????? Really??????? 102. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon is now outside the Top 10 because of 4 tires. 103. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin is screwed because everyone else took 2 tires and he took 4. 104. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Darian Grubb pulled a Gustafson. 105. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn. Even Darian Grubb is losing his head. And the way Denny's confidence has a tendancy to tank, giving this race away could be catastrophic for him. 106. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And what was Denny Hamlin's team thinking changing four tires on that pit stop, dropping him from a dominant lead to outside the top ten? He just saw his chances to win go out the window, as well. 107. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can't believe Gordon didn't gain a position on pit road. Still, he restarts 7th and on the inside. 108. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Denny called the audible to change 4 tires. So it looks like DENNY pulled a Gustafson. 109. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, my point exactly. And not just Gordon, but Kyle Busch and Mark Martin, as well. Where Gustafson contributes is the cars he builds, not on his pit road strategy, though Darian Grubb's pit call may go down as the worst this season, as Hamlin now has no chance to win, though it was apparently Hamlin's call to take four tires. 110. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PRN seems to forget that this track is NOT 1 mile long, it is 1.058 miles. Therefore 62 laps is not 62 miles, as they just reported, but 65.596 miles. 111. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't tell whether Gordon's car has fallen off since the 1st green flag run or he's become less motivated as the race has gone on. He loses positions on every restart and can't regain them after that. 112. joey2448 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, that 11 car is hooooked up! I haven't really seen anybody make a charge through the field today (maybe Keselowski), but Hamlin has gone from 14th to the top-five in 20 laps. Impressive. And Jeff Gordon is stagnant. 113. I love Japan posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol Vickers is doing decent. Anyone got some egg? 114. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, the problem with Gordon on restarts is that he's way too conservative. Remember at Kentucky when he would drop back 3-5 spots on every restart, and lost eight positions on the very first lap of the race. 115. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I missed the Kentucky race, but that does sound like something he would do this season. I hate to say this, but it feels like he just doesn't want it anymore. 116. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I the only one who thinks that Atlanta win last year will be Jeff's final career victory? Honestly, it seems lately Kyle Busch's luck is even worse than Jeff's. I think Kyle is going to miss the Chase as well. If Kasey wins he'll be ahead of Kyle in points and I can honestly see Joey Logano finishing ahead of Kyle and getting the second wildcard spot. 117. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,the man does want it remember Martinsville? or Dover? and maybe even Sonoma? the luck this man has suffered from is pure evil, he can't catch a break and his Crew Chief needs to grow up some. 118. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hamlin...is...CLOSING! 119. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Denny wins because he's pretty much a lock for the Chase. Also, Kahne winning would be bad for Gordon's Chase chances. Is anyone else surprised by how much of a non-factor Matt Kenseth has been in this race? He's great at the speedway tracks and his pretty good at the short tracks, but has been outside the top 10 all day. 120. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Hamlin wins... 121. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not really Paul. He has been super-strong all year, but NHMS is not one of Kenseth's better tracks. 122. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the 2000 season, PRN? I thought that was 12 years ago. 123. murb posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great to see Kasey get that win. On to the Brickyard. 124. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow! Gordon has an astounding 5 Top 7's in 8 races and 8 consecutive Top 19's! 125. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, let me rephrase that. I didn't mean that Gordon doesn't want to win, but it seems like he isn't able to overcome adversity like he used to. I agree, he should've won at Martinsville and Dover. I'm not so sure about Sonoma because Clint Bowyer had a better car than Gordon in the middle of the race. Gordon should have 2 wins and be a wildcard, but unfortunately the results aren't in his favor. I can forgive Bowyer for Martinsville because Kenseth did the same thing by divebombing Gordon for the lead late in 2010, but I blame NASCAR for rushing that caution at Dover because it ruined what could've been a great battle between Jeff and Jimmie. Congrats to Kasey Kahne on winning his 2nd race of the season. He takes the top wildcard spot away from Kyle Busch and is currently in the Chase. 126. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It will be interesting to see what this does to Denny mentally. 127. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And next week we have...an off week! Oh, phooey. 128. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As long as Kyle's luck turns around he should be a lock for the chase because he's been really fast lately. 129. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny gained about 13 positions on that last green flag run, Jimmie gained 10 positions, Kyle Busch gained just 2. It shows what 4 tires can do here if you're able to pass cars. 130. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like Kasey but as a Gordon fan I didnt want to see him win. I think 6th place was as good as Gordon's car was at the end. Gordon's car was really good untill that first caution and it was catch uo after that. Bad strategy calls as usual but at this point 6th is fine. Im not expecting Jeff to be in the chase but I just want good finishes at this point. 131. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON, I was feeling the same way about Kasey because I knew that would hurt Kyle's chances to make the chase. 132. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's only chance of winning this race was if there were 301 straight green flag laps. That would've eliminated any questionable pit calls and bad restarts from the equation. Seriously, he had the fastest car at the beginning of the race, but Gustafson's pit calls and having bad track position really killed him. It's a shame Brad Keselowski never got to the front during green flag runs. His car was bad fast, but he never had great track position. They just showed the top 12 finishers, and Brad was the only car who started outside the top 12, starting 22nd. That shows you just how crucial track position is here at Loudon and how fast his car was. 133. LordLowe posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 is a total loss for Gordon. If he is to be competitive in 2013 he needs to make some major, major changes starting by firing his crew chief. 134. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Overall that was a pretty sorry race. Good drama in the end wondering if Denny could catch Kasey in time, but these track owners need to realize progressive banking on a short track is not a good idea. Denny was the only car that could pass. 135. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I liked Gordon's interview. He's proud of the effort, but not content with the result because at this point, wins are the only finishes that matter. There's still a slight chance he could make it in the top 10 as he's just 2 races outside of 10th, but unless something catastrophic happens to the 7 guys in front of him, that'll be impossible. Personally, I'd be fine just seeing him win again. He hasn't won in back-to-back seasons since 2006-2007. If he makes the Chase, Kasey Kahne is going to be a force for this championship. Like Gordon, he had a rough start to the season, but he's managed to run well every week since and has 2 wins. 136. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does PRN play highlights with "Pirates of the Caribbean" background music. 137. David posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^That should be a question mark on my last comment. 138. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only call I really didnt like was staying out after that first caution with 20 lap older tires. After the first run Gordon was never as good. I think had he pitted and took two tires then he would've finished 4th-5th. Kahne, Hamlin, and Kyle Busch were definately better but I think Gordon could have beaten everyone else if he ran ahead of them. 139. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still think this race was better than the Nationwide race yesterday. Denny was the only car who could pass today, but it seemed like nobody could pass yesterday, with the exception of the Cup teams managing to pass the Nationwide-only teams and lap cars getting in the way. This is the 1st oval track that Stephen Leicht has finished all year. He did a nice job of staying out of the leaders' way all race and took advantage of other cars falling out of the race. 140. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Realizing that next week starts ESPN's coverage makes me wish TNT had more than just six races... 141. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51, the Sprint Cup Series has next week off. ESPN takes over in 2 weeks. Also, I heard TNT may sell their 6 races to FOX for 2013. 142. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I honestly haven't been keeping up with the schedule like I have years in the past, so that's probably a sign that five years down the road I won't be watching NASCAR anymore. I'm not a true diehard, I will come clean and admit. TNT selling their races to FOX...that'll definitely be a good way to get me to stop watching NASCAR for sure. Having to deal with the ever-annoying Waltrip brothers for even more races than 13...I would gladly pass! 143. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll admit, I actually enjoy Michael's commentary during the truck races. Maybe it's because he doesn't take up the show like he & Darrell did on FOX this year, maybe it's because the racing in the Truck Series is so much better and his commentary doesn't faze me. But without a doubt, he and Darrell together is just tv hell. 144. LordLowe posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All of Hendricks Horsepower and all of Hendrick's men cannot make Jeff Gordon competitive ever again. 145. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "All of Hendricks Horsepower and all of Hendrick's men cannot make Jeff Gordon competitive ever again." I think Gordon would crush the field with Chad k. and even Kenny Francis, but Gustafson has destroyed my faith in his ability to call a race(and not just because cjs3872 is 200% right). 146. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, I wouldn't say Gordon isn't competitive since he had winning cars at Martinsville, Dover, and Sonoma, plus he had a great car at Darlington and Bristol before cut tires took him out of contention. He's been as competitive as his team and car have been. When that team finally runs a race at 100%, look out. JG24FanForever, that's great wishful thinking, but unfortunately will never happen. Since Chad and Kenny are known for not sharing information with their other team crew chiefs, I would think having the 24 and 88 teams share race shops would be in their best interest, especially since Steve Letarte did have some success with Gordon. That way they could share information while the 5 and 48 teams do their own thing. But then again, a great race car can't always overcome bad strategy. 147. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I found it interesting that Jimmie said in his post race interview that he would keep his mouth shut about the caution. I don't know if he felt it was a little suspicious, but that's the impression I got from Jimmie. 148. startandparkfan posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #79 Sponsor- BBI/Bestway Disposal #34 Sponsor- 8-Hour Alert #87 Sponsor- AM/FM Energy/Pellet and Wood Stoves/Wildco #30 Had a sponsor, could not tell what is was. 149. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, the thing with Gordon and restarts is that he's been conservative on restarts for years now, except when he's either first or second. In fact, in the race at Atlanta he won last year, that was even mentioned in the booth, I believe by Andy Petree, that he was conservative on restarts, especially if he was back a few rows. Now if he's on the front row for a restart, he'll be as aggressive as anyone else, but he just won't make risky moves in traffic, and if someone does get a little aggressive around him on a restart, he'll just back out of it and recapture those positions later. And also, it looks like Kasey Kahne is starting to look like someone else that used to drive that #5 car, esepcially if he gets out front in late-race situations. This someone I refer to drove that car for a decade and won the 1996 championship in it. Yes, I'm referring to Terry Labonte. Kasey hasn't really had very many opportunities to win races in recent years, but when he ha, he usually takes advantage of it, and rarely makes a mistake, another Labonte trademark. And it seems like the tougher the track, the better he runs, which was another Labonte trademark. Most of Labonte's wins were usually on the toughest tracks, and Kasey's beginning to develop a reputation as one of the better "tough track" drivers, and the win at Loudon is more proof of that. Now if Kasey could get his act tobgether on short tracks, he might be THE favorite for the championship, since he's getting a reputation as a driver that waits the competition out, and the fact that you can't seem to force a mistake out of him. That, plus his affinity for the high-speed tracks could make him the man to beat for the championship. 150. LordLowe posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS It is time. It is time for you to face your fear off backfliping. 151. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anybody notice Carl Edwards 14 straight races outside the Top 5? or his season high finish of only 5th? I think Gordon is even having a much more spectacular year than our 2011 championship Runner-up. Laps Led Jeff Gordon 426 Carl Edwards 207 what the hell is wrong with this driver? 152. 10andJoe posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #30 sponsor: Lucky's Trailer Sales #34 sponsor: Maximum Human Performance #79 sponsor: Bestway Disposal (didn't have Team Kyle logos from reports) 153. 10andJoe posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going waaaay back: >It's just that the [#24 Busch]team is bringing in 'Kevin Conways' with funding but no talent I wouldn't include Bainey in that list. He wasn't doing too horrible at Dover until Sliced Bread sliced him. 154. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, And 206 of the 207 laps Carl led were in one race, the Richmond race that he gave away any shot he had at a win. 155. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For all the diehard race nerds: you should tune to Speed and watch the Mugello MotoGP race. 156. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And 206 of the 207 laps Carl led were in one race, the Richmond race that he gave away any shot he had at a win." 18fan,that is one extremely horrible fact for Edwards fans, if any are even on this site. 157. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, you make a good point about Gordon making up positions after restarts. On that last restart, he restarted 7th, fell back to 9th or 10th, and made his way up to 6th. Had this been at a track like Atlanta or Michigan where there are multiple grooves, he may have made it up to 5th or even 4th. Also from that Atlanta race, Gordon was just riding late in the race while in the lead, but as soon as he saw that 48 car charging, he stepped it up a notch and outdrove Jimmie for those final 10-15 laps. He's aggressive when he needs to be, and that is why he has 4 championships and is the active driver win leader in NASCAR. I would say that Kasey is a step below Terry Labonte when it comes to consistency, and it's not always his fault. Like Terry, Kasey has no weaknesses when it comes to racing on different styled tracks (he's a very underrated road race, like Terry), but when it comes down to winning the championship, he hits a glass ceiling. Sure, Kasey drove the 1st 7 years of his career at Evernham/GEM/RPM, so consistency wasn't his best friend. But in those final 10 races in 2006 and 2009, he was either stagnant or choked during the Chase. In 2006, he entered the Chase 10th in points with 5 wins and finished in the top 4 in 3 of the final 4 non-Chase races. Though he had 5 top 7 finishes in the Chase, including a win, he had 4 finishes of 33rd or worse and finished 8th in points when he easily should've had a top 5 points finish. His 2009 Chase was even more disappointing as he entered 4th in points with 2 wins. Once again, he had 4 top 8 finishes, but also 4 finishes of 32nd or worse and finished 10th in points. But then again, that was EM/GEM/RPM inconsistent equipment. Now that he's with Hendrick, I'd expect him to perform much better in the Chase this year, especially with the role he's been on as of late (as well as late last season). Hopefully he doesn't choke in this year's Chase, but I just felt the numbers should be listed from his previous 2 Chase berths. Terry Labonte is a fair comparison, but I feel that Terry would've stepped it up had he been in the same predicament. Remember, Terry already had 10 top 10 points finishes at age 32; Kasey has only 2 top 10 points finishes. I think Kasey's got Terry Labonte driving ability with Jeff Burton consistency. 158. JG24FanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would somebody on here please do the Nascar Cup points from 1972-present with the current F1 points system? I'm certain Gordon would win the championship in 1996 and 2007 fairly easy(no chase of course) 159. 10andJoe posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's a crying shame that Ken Schrader drove the 32 instead of, say, Mike Stefanik. 160. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's a shame that Modified drivers don't come over to the Cup or Nationwide Series anymore. It certainly would shake things up, especially since those drivers can get around Loudon really well and might know how to pass. 161. Spen posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco's still around, so we do have one Edwards fan here. I can't blame Kasey too much for the 2009 chase. When RPM announced their switch to Ford for 2010, Dodge basically gave up on them for '09. 2006 was another story, though. 162. 18fan posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, I have been doing this year's Cup points with the F1 system and it looks like this after today's race: Jimmie Johnson 170 Tony Stewart 162 Denny Hamlin 161 Matt Kenseth 158 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 149 Greg Biffle 130 Brad Keselowski 113 Kasey Kahne 112 Clint Bowyer 99 Kyle Busch 98 Martin Truex, Jr. 81 Kevin Harvick 73 Jeff Gordon 56 Ryan Newman 54 Carl Edwards 47 Joey Logano 46 163. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Especially Paul since he's now driving the same #5 car that Terry drove for a decade. But Kahne is capable of stepping up his game, while Labonte was a guy that had a comparitively low ceiling, but also a comparitively high floor. Labonte never realy raised his game. He was incapable of doing so with rare exceptions (the last five races of 1996 being one of those rare exceptions). But he also was a guy you knew would never crack under pressure, which in turn, actually put pressure on his competitors because they knew they couldn't make mistakes, and that's usually when mistakes come. But Paul, you can't compare points standings from the late 70s and early 80s to today, because a driver could miss a race or two and still finish in the top 10 in points back then, because there were so few drivers that ran up front AND ran all the races. In fact, Dale Earnhardt finished seventh in the points in 1979, despite missing four or five races (or 15-20% of the season) due to injury. It really wasn't until about 1985-'87 when there started to be 15 or more quality teams running the full schedule (the Wood Brothers didn't run the full season until 1985, for example), so to finish in the top 10 in points, you only had to finish ahead of a few quality cars, not two-thirds of the field as you do now. In other words, a top ten points finish in the late 70s and early 80s was not much of an accomplishment. And if he makes the Chase, which is still not the lock many people seem to think it is now, it will be interesting how Kasey does, since this would be the first time he will make it with a team who's collective talent is equal to his. Also, doesn't it seem strange that Brian Vickers is looking like he did when he made the Chase in 2009 for the first time since then the year after getting out from under Kenny Francis? I don't, because a combinaton of Francis' lack of information sharing, which torpedoed the careers of Jeremy Mayfield, Scott Riggs, and even Elliott Sadler, and the recovery from his own illness in 2010 were a great deal of what held Vickers back last year. 164. Eric posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I don't think you should compare Kasey Khane to Terry Labonte yet. Bill Elliott is a better comparison for Kasey. Kasey almost has as many poles in his career as Terry does. Kasey is only 3 poles away from tying Terry besides a major difference on race day. Terry Labonte did not win a lot on intermediate tracks and most his wins on Driver tracks. You not say that about Kasey. Terry has a cup win at Charlotte and at Texas for intermediate tracks and that is it. You could that there was not a lot of intermediate tracks for Terry in his prime since Terry made his 550th start in 1997. I don't think that would been much of a difference for Terry. Kasey Kahne on the hand has 9 mile and half or 2 mile track wins out of 14 wins. Out of Kasey last 7 wins, 4 of them are on tracks that you consider to be driver tracks. Kasey is showing versatility that people thought he lacked early in his cup career. Kasey is a driver that is a threat to win on intermediate tracks and on tracks that are at least a mile. The same thing can be said about Bill Elliott. I honestly think Rick saw Bill Elliott in Kasey Khane when he was going to be a free agent after the 2010 season. Rick saw glimpses of Bill in him as a driver. Bill Elliott won a lot on intermediate tracks and super speedways in his prime, but he actually was great at places like Rockingham, Dover, Darlington and Pocono. The fact Bill won the Brickyard 400 was no shocker because he was great at Pocono. The rule of thumb for a time was if you win at Pocono, you will be a threat to win at Indy. Bill matter of fact won at Phoenix once and his first win was at Riverside. Bill is not know for his ability on tracks less than a mile and you could put Kasey in the same category as result. Bill also was a great Qualifier and that is something you can say about Kasey also. The other thing with Bill, was he had a lot of years that he could have won races if he was on better teams back in the 1990's starting in 1993. I don't think you can point the amount wins Kasey has after his 2006 season all on Kasey. Before this season, Kasey has been on teams that had problems. In 2007, Ray Evernham got behind the times by a screw up that was made during the off season and had to deal with a merger during the at season also. In 2009, Gillett also became Richard Petty Motorsports after Petty Enterprises was merged and they were going to get a rid of their engine department after 2009 besides going to Ford in 2010. In 2010, It was found out that Gillett had money problems and is not a great work environment to driver in. Dale Earnhardt Sr if he was still alive can back that up about driving for an owner that was having money issues is not a great situation. Kasey was lame duck driver before the season started since he was going to the now defunct Red Bull Racing for one season before going to HMS besides Red Bull Racing was not a top notch racing team. I actually think Kasey can be a big time winner like 2006 proved, but he had to deal with situations that were not in his control before this season and was on average teams from 2007 to 2011. 2008 was the last time before this season that was not any problems with the team, but that team was not that strong compare to 2006. The difference from 2006 to 2008 to 2011 time period is Kasey improving as a driver outside of high speed tracks. 165. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, that's a good point. I had completely forgotten about RPM's eventual switch to Ford. Other than Kasey, RPM was terrible in 2009 (with the exception of A.J.'s midseason performance that put him in the top 25 in points). It just shows you how well Kasey and Kenny Francis work together, not to mention how great Kasey is as a driver. It's a shame they couldn't perform during the Chase. It would've been interesting to see if he could've interrupted Hendrick's 1-2-3 points finish. 166. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, the thing with Kasey's performance in the 2006 Chase was that the rest of Evernham's teams were beginning to run into a problem with being competitive, and during the 2006 Chase, that problem even started to catch up to Kasey's team, something that resulted in his horrible 2007 season. The seeds of Kahne's 2007 collapse actually began in the second half of the 2006 season, because Evernham's other teams began to struggle, and it was eventually going to catchup to Kahne's team , which it did in the 2006 Chase, and throughout 2007, and even into the first part of 2008. And although Kahne won twice in both 2008 and 2009 (three times in 2008 if you count the All-Star Race), he never really had a solid team around him until this season. In fact, how he could have kept from going totally nuts from 2007 until this year is beyond me because of all the changes. 167. Eric posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The major difference I referred to about on race day between Terry and Kasey is Terry was not a driver you really look for winning at a high speed track. 168. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, what you say about Kahne is true, except for his more recent wins, which have come on drivers tracks like Pocono, Sonoma, Phoenix, and now Loudon. And remember that in Terry's day that there wasn't as many 1.5-2 mile tracks (there were only three for most of Terry's career as a top-flight driver), and a big reason he could not win on them was that he wasn't aggressive enough, and to win on those tracks, you do have to be aggressive. However, it must be said that Terry could be aggressive when needed. How else could he have won the All-Star Race twice, and outraced both Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart for the second one of those in 1999? But that's why I say that Kahne has a gear in him that Labonte never had, because he can step it up, while Labonte usually could not. Labonte's greatest strength may also have been his greatest weakness, and that is that he was a conservative, mistake-free driver throughout his career that you could count on to finish races, but who also, except for one instance at the end of 1996, could not step up his performance, either. 169. Eric posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I did mention about his recent wins on post 164 by typing Out of Kasey last 7 wins, 4 of them are on tracks that you consider to be driver tracks. By typing that I don't how you don't think the 4 wins I was referring to wasn't Pocono, Sonoma, Phoenix, Loudon. Remember Kasey's last 7 wins came from 2008 to today. 170. BON GORDON posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I dont know what I missed but why are we comparing Kasey Kahne to Bill Elliott? 171. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But he also was a guy you knew would never crack under pressure, which in turn, actually put pressure on his competitors" Terry fit the "Iceman" moniker very well. He was very cool under pressure. "You can't compare points standings from the late 70s and early 80s to today, because a driver could miss a race or two and still finish in the top 10 in points back then, because there were so few drivers that ran up front AND ran all the races." That's a great point, especially with the Wood Brothers, who were great at winning at high-speed tracks, but didn't run a full schedule until much later on. Terry did finish in the top 5 in points four times from 1985 to 1989 (age 32), but then again three of those years were at a then-stable Junior Johnson team. "A top ten points finish in the late 70s and early 80s was not much of an accomplishment." Also true. Richard Childress was never a contender for a win (1 career lead lap finish), yet he finished in the top 16 in points in all eight of his full-time seasons, including a 5th place finish in 1975. "A combinaton of Francis' lack of information sharing, which torpedoed the careers of Jeremy Mayfield, Scott Riggs, and even Elliott Sadler" Riggs was pretty good in 2006, but other than that all three of those guys suffered from sharing shops with Kenny Francis from 2006-2010, as well as Vickers in 2011. It's no coincidence that Mayfield's career began its downward spiral after Francis moved over from the 19 to the 9 car. Chemistry between driver and team gets talked about a lot these days, but chemistry between different teams under the same ownership often gets overlooked. That's why I think pairing the 5 and 48 teams would be perfect because neither crew chief shares information. "I honestly think Rick saw Bill Elliott in Kasey Khane when he was going to be a free agent after the 2010 season." Kasey Kahne took over the 9 car in 2004 when Bill Elliott wanted a reduced schedule. Though he wasn't racing every week, I'm sure during the two years that Bill was Evernham's R&D driver, Kasey picked up a lot just by listening to Bill. That could be a reason why Hendrick signed Bill's son Chase as a developmental driver when he had the chance, knowing full-well that Chase would be mentored by his dad. Also, like Bill, Kasey is great on the high-speed tracks, and will struggle on the short tracks (although he's miles ahead on short tracks today than he was his rookie year). "The seeds of Kahne's 2007 collapse actually began in the second half of the 2006 season, because Evernham's other teams began to struggle, and it was eventually going to catchup to Kahne's team" Kasey had a miserable year in 2007, with his lone highlight being a 2nd place finish at Bristol, a track that he wasn't known for running well at prior to that year. Whether it was him stepping it up as a driver, or his No. 9 team getting their shit together, they rallied back with 4 points wins over the next two seasons and qualifying for the 2009 Chase. Meanwhile, his teammates were left miles behind. The only other driver to succeed at GEM/RPM was AJ Allmendinger, who improved each year he was at RPM. But I'm sure having George Gillett as an owner was a cancer to all three Evernham teams at that time. 172. Eric posted: 07.15.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ben Gordon, It is caused by the fact cjs3872 was comparing Kasey Kahne to Terry Labonte by him typing "Kasey Kahne is starting to look like someone else that used to drive that #5 car". Terry is not the right comparison for Kasey and that is why I brought up Bill Elliott. 173. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, the addition of more 1.5 to 2-mile tracks really hurt Terry's performance in his final seasons. The year 1997 was a turning point for the NASCAR schedule with the addition of Texas and Fontana. Terry was on a streak of three straight 2+ win seasons (the most of his career) and was the 1996 champion, but only won four more times over his final eight seasons, and never more than once per season. Since then, we've gained 2 Kansas races, Chicagoland, Kentucky, another race at Texas, and briefly another race at Fontana. Had Terry come into NASCAR in 1997, he'd probably have zero championships and about the same win total as Clint Bowyer, who has no intermediate track wins. 174. Rusty posted: 07.15.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl has had a massively disappointing season. He appears to be suffering from the 2nd place in the standings syndrome that many suffer through. But also, maybe not running the Nationwide races is hurting him more than expected. That is less track time, so who knows. 175. Rusty posted: 07.15.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, did Dave Blaney S&P? I really hope not... 176. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty, Carl has runner-up hangover every time he comes close to winning the championship. He goes through a three year rotation of being a contender, "hungover", and rebuilding. In short, here's how each season has been for Carl: 2004: "Rookie" season, showed a lot of flashes of brilliance 2005: 4 wins, tied for 2nd in points (Contender) 2006: 0 wins, 12th in points (Hangover) 2007: 3 wins, 9th in points (Rebuild) 2008: 9 wins, 2nd in points (Contender) 2009: 0 wins, 11th in points (Hangover) 2010: 2 wins, 4th in points (Rebuild) 2011: 1 win, tied for 1st in points (Contender) 2012: 0 wins, 11th in points (Hangover) To be fair, he did have more top 10s in 2006 than he did in '05 or '07, but he missed the Chase one year after tying for 2nd in points, making 2006 a "hangover" year. It's not too late to change this year around, but with no wins, only two top 5s (none since Fontana), two races led (none since Richmond), and sitting outside the top 10 in points, things are looking bleak for Carl's 2012 season. 177. 10andJoe posted: 07.15.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Also, did Dave Blaney S&P? I really hope not... TBR has started parking the 36 in races where it's unsponsored, yes. Of course, any time teams go past the first pitstop, I don't think it should be considered S&Ping anymore. 178. Schroeder51 posted: 07.15.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unfortunately, Rusty, Dave Blaney did in fact S&P, as did Casey Mears. 179. Anonymous posted: 07.15.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watched this race late. My favorite part was when one of the announcers (Adam Alexander I believe, but I don't completely remember) made the brilliant comment "Denny Hamlin gained 80 ft from the backstretch to the middle of turns 3-4" as if it's not normal for gaps to close some as the cars slow down going into a corner. 180. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, Schroeder51, there were, to me, only three true start-and-parks in this race, and they would be the 49, 79, and 23 cars. Michael McDowell, Dave Blaney, and Joe Nemechek actually ran to the first pit stop, so they ran as far as they could without making a pit stop, and Josh Wise, Casey Mears, and David Stremme each made a pit stop, so they could never be classified as start-and-parks. They may have not attmepted to go the full distance, but they weren't S&P's, either. Now you can classify McDowell, Blaney, and Nemechek as start-and-parks, but in no way can Wise, Mears, and Stremme be classified that way. And it was pleasant surprise to see Joe Falk's #33 car actually running the full race, I believe for the first time that Falk has had that car. And although David Ragan's car was listed out due to an engine failure, since there was no sponsor, and I don't believe it was mentioned (it might have been), I wonder if Ragan's retirement from the race was a simliar situation to that of Wise, Mears and Stremme, that they ran the car as far as they could and then parked it, or was it a legitimate engine problem? And I also find it interesting that, looking at the results of the race, that this race, possibly more than any other this year, showed the true look of the sport. Just look at the bottom cars among those that finished. That's about where those teams really stand in the pecking order among the big teams, with the possible exception of Aric Almirola and the #43 car, it's a pretty good reflection of the bottom tier of the sport right now, and what it truly looks like. 181. 12345Dude posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I missed the race. Was it any good? It doesn't sound like it. I slept in till 8 O'Clock PM! Summer vacation is fun. Have any of you ever woken up later than that on Summer Vacation? I only went to bed at 6 AM. 182. ch posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ragan did have a sponsor, MHP 8-Hour Alert signed an 11th hour deal. Even if they were unsponsored, FRM would NEVER park the 34 / 38. 183. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate to say it, 12345Dude, but except for Denny Hamlin's mad dash at the end (and how he got back in the pack was self-induced), you didn't miss very much. Sorry. 184. ch posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor changes: 33 - Circle Sport (Should be the same for Daytona as well) 51 - Phoenix Racing On a side note, to respond to somebody above, Falk also ran the 33 car the full distance at Texas and Richmond. 185. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well ch, then why is it not listed on the race results in the sponsor/owner column? I had forgotten that he did find an 11th hour sponsor. You're right about that, but I'm not sure about FRM NEVER parking either the 34 or 38 car. As much of a bottom feeder as they are, they really don't have much to gain by running the full races will little or no sponsorship (Taco Bell is their only real full-time sponsor). That's why I've speculated that they might begin S&P'ing either the 34 or 38 car if they're unsponsored, because they're really overextending themselves trying to run three cars with just two sponsors, and especially the 34 and 38 cars with just one full-time sponsor, which often alternates between those two cars, leaving the other sponsorless for numerous races. 186. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn 12345Dude, you sleep later than me and I work the night shift. Of course I have to be at work at 7pm so I can't sleep that late lol. But no, you missed pretty much nothing. No action except Denny in the end and he came up short so it was for naught. These races go by faster than Brad K driving to or from his pit stall (I must include at least one Brad on pit road joke for every race he is in for the rest of the year). 187. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact DSFF, I slept through part of the middle of the race myself when Denny Hamlin was building his big lead. One thing though. Jimmie Johnson was complaining about the cause of that last caution flag (of three) today. But that may have been the only caution today that can be deemed legitimate, as it was for oil from David Reutimann's engine. The others were phantom cautions meant to tighten up the field and spice up a lifeless race on a terrible track. After all, what would cause debris in a race in which there were no incidents at all? I think NASCAR knew what a disaster the race was becoming and decided to throw a couple of cautions just to tighten up the field, which it is known to do. Certainly Indy can't be any worse than today, even though the crowd there wil look much smaller than today's (I'm predicting 120,000 tops for the Brickyard 400). 188. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mentioned in an earlier post that Stephen Leicht also ran the distance at Sonoma. My mistake, it was fellow R.O.Y. contender Josh Wise who ran the distance there. Leicht also ran the distance at Richmond; Hermie Sadler and Tony Raines ran the distance in the No. 33 at Martinsville and Texas, respectively. Leicht gave Joe Falk's team its 2nd best finish, after Sadler's 31st place at Martinsville. He also finished 8 laps down, the fewest laps Falk's team has lost in a race all season. This R.O.Y. battle between Wise and Leicht just got a little interesting. Neither driver is competitive and Leicht entered the R.O.Y. battle a few months into the season, but it could get interesting if Leicht starts to run the distance more often. He's already done so twice, while Wise has only finished one race. 189. 10andJoe posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >why is it not listed on the race results in the sponsor/owner column? Because NASCAR's recordkeeping is at times utterly atrocious. The number of errors in their sponsor listings would be laughable if it weren't so sad. (They're doing better it seems, judging by a lower number of corrections necessary lately, but still...) >Taco Bell is their only real full-time sponsor Not even that. Taco Bell is on the car because Jenkins owns some Yum! Brands franchises, covering Taco Bell, A&W, and Long John Silvers - all three of which appear on FRM's cars as 'sponsors'. 190. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs3872 & DSFF, I mentioned on the Nationwide page that I fell asleep and missed the final 60 laps of that race. It's almost embarrassing that the ARCA and Truck races at Iowa were SO much more exciting than the Cup and Nationwide races here at Loudon. Personally, I'd rather see the Trucks race here again over the top 2 series. At least the drivers there aren't afraid to beat 'n bang with each other, which is pretty much the only way you can pass on this one groove track. Also, the Modified race had a finish go down to the line, with Mike Stefanik winning by .005 seconds. I doubt we'll see a non-restrictor plate finish like that with these cars. 191. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's a poll on NASCAR.com asking which of the races this weekend was the most exciting, with 45% saying it was the Sprint Cup race. I have no idea what race they were watching. They probably didn't even know there was a Truck race last night. It's a shame, because that was a great race. 192. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not suprising considering the poll is on NASCAR.com 193. MStall41 posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not the worst NH race I've ever seen, but the fact is that this is just a terrible track. They oughta rreconfigure the track and add mega banking to spice things up, because the current config is not conducive to good Cup racing, and frankly never has been. 194. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, 120k will look bad at IMS, but imagine the Nationwide and especially Rolex race. I doubt Nationwide will attract over 40,000, and outside of the Rolex 24, Montreal and Road America Rolex Series attendance is sparse (Watkins, Mid Ohio, ect) to nearly non-exsistent (Miami, Laguna ect). At least despite it's lack of media attention, the rival ALMS brings great crowds to their races, but you know that an ALMS race will never happen on a NASCAR weekend for obvious reasons. The place will look like a ghost town on Friday. 195. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TeamPlayersBlue, very true. Compared to this site's comments section, NASCAR.com is very amateur in terms of producing good discussions. MStall41, if they do reconfigure this track, I'd want it to have banking all around the track, similar to Chicagoland and Dover. Maybe not as high banking as Dover, but enough to add a second groove or at least encourage passing and/or divebombing into the corner. Divebombing may be cheap, but it's somewhat of a last resort technique that can be used to pass a car. If you try divebombing on this configuration, you're not going to get the wheels turned enough as the track flattens out. Plus, you'll do a lot more damage to your brake rotors than you would at a banked track. 196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The deal is Iowa was built from the ground up with one thought in mind: awesome racing. It was designed to be the way it is from the time it was still a cornfield. You can't just take an existing track like NH or Bristol and haphazardly add progressive banking. Especially 4 or 5 degrees difference on such a small surface. Homestead seems to have just the right amount of progressive banking, and it is a wide mile and a half with just two degrees difference from bottom to top. Kudos to Rusty for all his efforts in getting that awesome track built. 197. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still can't believe they moved the Nationwide Series from IRP to IMS. I can only imagine how much single-file racing that race will produce. Plus, we may see some tire blowouts from some of the smaller team/inexperienced drivers at this 2.5-mile, one groove, tire-eating track. It's very clear now that the Nationwide Series is just a preliminary Cup race, rather than a small National series for up-and-coming drivers. Thankfully the ARCA Series is still going to IRP this year. It may not have the same attendance, but it's sure to put on a better show than the races at IMS. 198. Paul posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can't just take an existing track like NH or Bristol and haphazardly add progressive banking." Don't underestimate the mind of Bruton Smith. "The deal is Iowa was built from the ground up with one thought in mind: awesome racing." And it hasn't disappointed. I didn't watch the races there from 2009-2011, but I've watched the Nationwide, Truck, and ARCA races there this summer and enjoyed every one of them. I especially liked the Truck and ARCA races there this weekend, but that could be due to the more equal competition compared to Nationwide. It's a short track that races like a speedway, with speeds upwards of 150 MPH. Can't ask for much more than that. "Kudos to Rusty for all his efforts in getting that awesome track built." My thoughts exactly. Hopefully the track gains a spot on the Cup schedule. The track is that good. 199. cjs3872 posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TeamPlayersBlue, sure 120,000 would look terrible at IMS, but I think that's probably going to be the size of the crowd, if there's not threatening weather. Of all the big races that has been adversely affected by the Chase, none have been hit harder than the Brickyard, beacuse the teams that know they're in the Chase could care less how they fare at Indy. Sure there are other factors, such as the 2004 and 2008 tire fiascos, but the Chase was already eating into the Brickyard before the 2008 event there. However, there is a potential silver lining here. Since Jeff Gordon has to go all out and win if he has any chance at the Chase, maybe this is the year he reaches the unreachable star in racing, a fifth win on the IMS oval. That may be the one thing that brings some popularity back to the Brickyard 400, though it will never reach pre-2004 popularity levels, when it sold out each year. After all, people at Indy have been waiting for a 5-time winner there since the late 70s, but who would imagine it might be a NASCAR driver that reaches that milestone first. And TeamPlayersBlue, as for your assessment that it's doubtful that the Nationwide race will top 40,000 spectators, truly, except for Daytona, when's the last time a Nationwide race has gotten 40,000 spectators. They can't even get a crowd that big at the Nationwide races at Charlotte, and besides Daytona, the races at Charlotte are that series' biggest events. And as for the attendance problems at the Indianapolis Motor speedway, they can't even sell out the Indianapolis 500, as it appeared it wasn't anywhere near a sellout this year. And if they can't sell out the Indianapolis 500, what hope would they have of having good attendace at the Brickyard 400, or any other race they hold there? And Paul, when you say that this race marks Joe Falk's best finish in Cup, I'm assuming you meant it's his best finish in this go-around as a Cup team owner, because he actually has a top five finish as a car owner, when Todd Bodine was fifth at the 1998 season finale at Atlanta driving Falk's #91 car, and looked like he was going to finish third in that race. And the thing about New Hampshire and Iowa is that you can't really race at New Hampshire, while Rusty Wallace built Iowa as a bigger version of Richmond, and Richmond is considered one of the 3-5 best tracks on the Cup circuit, and has been ever since it was reconfigured in 1988, and you can actually race at Iowa, which is why it puts on better races than New Hampshire can even dream of putting on. In fact, a bad race at Iowa is better than just about any good one at New Hampshire is. 200. Anthony posted: 07.15.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only does Iowa race amazing in real life its also amazing on iRacing. One of the best oval tracks around right now, its just the right length and contains just the right amount of banking to produce fantastic racing no matter the series. As for Loudon, its good on the computer but rubbish in real life, they need to either fix the track/tyre combo or remove a date from the calendar and give it to an interesting track like Atlanta or another Road Course. 201. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Things that put on a better show than stock car races at IMS: - paint drying - grass growing - a Ben Stein speech - an Ashley Simpson live performance - Elizabeth Berkely in Showgirls - Mike Bliss' victory lane dances - a canceled Guns N Roses concert - a golf tournament without Tiger Woods - Bill Belichick's press conferences 202. Paul posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, correct. I was referring to Hermie Sadler's 31st place finish at Martinsville as Joe Falk's best finish since returning to Cup. Sorry for the bad wording. If the average Nationwide attendance for 2012 is any indication, the race at IMS should draw over 40,000. The average attendance through 17 races is 47,329. The season-opening race at Daytona had 80,000 in attendance, which is the highest of the season. Since IMS can hold about 90,000 more than Daytona, I'd imagine they could eclipse Daytona as the highest attended Nationwide race of the season. If they can't get to 60,000, then that will be the true indicator as to how unpopular IMS has become in NASCAR. 203. Paul posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "- Mike Bliss' victory lane dances" Mike Bliss did a dance in victory lane? Haha! I'd love to see that. Hell, I'd love to see Mike Bliss PERIOD. That poor guy races his ass off every week, is sitting 8th in the points, and gets no air time or mentions on tv other than the occasional "...goes by Mike Bliss on the inside." I'd still much rather watch a stock car race at IMS than a GoDaddy or Nationwide Insurance commercial. 204. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yup, after every Truck win, Mike would put on some of the whitest white guy dance moves (which is to say they weren't pretty at all) you've ever seen. I'm sure there is some footage on YouTube. 205. Ivan Balakhonov posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I honestly hope that IMS Nationwide race will be a resonant failure after all this hype. I shed some tears after they removed Lucas Oil Raceway Park from the schedule and my heart wants some revenge. It was bad idea from the very beginning but it's been for years now that NA$CAR thinks about the bucks and not about quality of racing. As for this very race, to my opinion it was the worst one this season, even worse than Kansas or Kentucky. I can't remember when it was the last time I fell asleep watching the day race (it happens sometime during night races because here in Russia they usually start at 4am). 206. Ivan Balakhonov posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I honestly hope that IMS Nationwide race will be a resonant failure after all this hype. I shed some tears after they removed Lucas Oil Raceway Park from the schedule and my heart wants some revenge. It was bad idea from the very beginning but it's been for years now that NA$CAR thinks about the bucks and not about quality of racing. As for this very race, to my opinion it was the worst one this season, even worse than Kansas or Kentucky. I can't remember when it was the last time I fell asleep watching the day race (it happens sometime during night races because here in Russia they usually start at 4am). 207. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 2:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd agree about the attendance situation regarding NASCAR and IMS, except for the fact that they really didn't come close to selling out the Indianapolis 500 this year, as it looked to me as if there were 30-40 thousand empty seats for the Indy 500 this year, and I can't ever remember seeing that, and I've watched it every year since 1988 or '89. The fact that there were that many empty seats for the Indianapolis 500 should be a real red herring for the speedway. Like I said, if they can't sell out the Indianapolis 500 (and they really weren't that close this year), what chance would they have of getting over 120,000 at the Brickyard 400, which has waned in popularity since the adaptation of the Chase made it a virtually meaningless race for those that know they're in the Chase. 208. Mr X posted: 07.16.2012 - 2:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me the lack of excitment on track this year is getting tiresome, it has been many years since I payed as little attention to a race as I did today. Basically I had the race going on the TV whilst I did other things, I couldn't even hear it in the background, and I didn't care. New Hampshire has never been a great track, but almost every track with this current package has struggled to produce an exciting race. I've been thinking this for most of this season so far, but I've kept it to myself so far. I would never say that a race car takes no special talent to drive, but this year just because of development in the car as the time goes by, one of these cars takes less talent to drive then ever before. This cars natural tendancy to understeer and the high amounts of downforce, and the fact that nothing on the car has to be conserved during the race means that the driver doesn't have to use his head, and the stability stays in the car at higher speeds, and the cars aero dependency means that in traffic the car is useless. I see a racing driver as somewhat of a gladiator, and I see a racing car as a wild, dangerous, fast, aggressive, unpredictable, and unforgiving tool that only the most skilled can wield. I just don't see that with these drivers in these cars this year. I'm sorry to use this as my reference as not all of you may know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to compare two supercars from the past and present. The 1993 McLaren F1, and the 2008 Nissan GT-R. If you have ever seen a road test from either of these road cars you'll get what I'm talking about. Especially if you're like me and are an avid watcher of the British car show Top Gear. I won't delve into the reasons why but while both cars could get around the same track in similar times one takes far more talent then the other to drive at the limit. The most butter-fingered driver could get the Nissan round nearly as fast as a professional, meanwhile only a professional could drive the 241mph McLaren at the limit. These cars seem to be getting a bit too close to the Nissan GT-R end of the scale for my taste. These cars can be driven with absolute consistancy lap after lap. I like DSFF has mentioned don't want to see wrecks dispite what it sounds like. I want to see drivers almost wreck. To me when a driver can work a little harder behind the wheel and make up for a mistake he made that shows real talent. I'll put it this way, when was the last time when you saw a replay of a driver making a great save, like Jamie McMurray at Las Vegas in 2009. Nothing like that has happened this year, how many times last year did JJ spin out all on his own. Why isn't anything like that happening this year. I think it's because the car is too easy to drive for these caliber drivers. Here's some evidence: Today's race ran without incident, all incidents at Kentucky were results of blown engines, 82 straight green laps at Sonoma?, Kurt Busch was the only driver to get into trouble at Michigan on his own, and he's in a under performing car. All other incidents were on restarts at MIS, and that's with the highest speeds MIS has ever seen. The Coke 600's only incident was for an accident from another under performing car. 172 straight green laps at Darlington?? and a full 299 before any form of driver error. Kurt Busch again was the only driver to not go error free in Richmond, and Kansas despite running on the oldest and most worn out pavement the track has ever had, set track records for fewest cautions and caution laps, and average speed. Texas was incident free. Martinsville was very green, Fontana saw the longest green flag run ever at that track 124 laps. Even new Bristol was uncharactoristically green. Again I'm aware that I'm coming off as somebody who only watches for the wrecks, and I wish I could state my opinion without coming off this way, but you can't deny that the lack of driver errors this year regardless of whether or not the driver was able to recover is way down this year, and legit cautions are way down as a result. Virtually every caution is for nothing more then the plastic casing from the tip of Bart's shoelace.(Sorry, I'm watching a Simpsons episode right now.) I really do believe it takes less(not zero) talent then ever to race in the sprint cup series right now, and that's a shame. However I also believe other factors are at play here. Again these cars have way too much downforce at the present moment. They have way too much stability at high speed, when you compare in car camera shots of today compared to the camera shots of just a couple years ago the driver looks as if he is doing noticeably less work at the helm. The same is true in F1, Sebastian Vettel is very talented and very fast, but I still prefer onboard shots from Senna, Gilles Villeneuve, Patrick Depailler, and the like. They raced in an era when the cars had barely any downforce and they slid around, which seperated the drivers based on skill. They are slower but the driver is clearly working harder, and they are more spectacular. More Downforce=More Aero Dependency=More aero issues in traffic=Worse Racing. The spread out racing this year can be attributed to the lack of cautions, and the lack of cautions can be attributed to the spread out racing, the aero dependency of the cars means that all cars will struggle to maintain the pace of the car in front of them until they are out of the wake of dirty air, meaning the field instantly seperates. Once they are out of eachother's wakes the lack of attrition in any part of the car means the car doesn't change much, due to the spec cars and the general lack of teams in the sport everyone is running mostly the same stuff, the lack of drivers tracks, attrition, and the high downforce means there is nothing to seperate the drivers. It's annoying that racing has to be this way. This is part of the reason why drivers like Jeff Gordon struggle, and why Dale Earnhardt would gladly pass at racing this way. NASCAR wasn't like this just 2 to 3 years ago. The racing has really taken a serious dive in cup in the last year and a half. I look forward to 2013. That's the only reason why NASCAR would like to shorten races. If NASCAR would fix the problem with the racing in say a green flag run, there would not be any issue with races that are "too long." I do agree that there are too many races in a year, when you think about it there are some serious pros to cutting a few bad races from an overcrowded season. Just my two cents. 209. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am currently watching ESPNEWS... The idiots posted in their race recap two errors. 1) They said Kyle Busch had never won at New Hampshire: WRONG! 2) They said Denny Hamlin led 151 laps: WRONG!, but not by much. 210. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, you forget one big reason for the lack of cautions this year, and that is the point system. The reason I say that is the fact that the drivers are much more conservative than they were two or three years ago, because they know how damaging a bad finish is where points are concerned. So if anything, part of the reason we're not seeing things like Jimmie Johnson spinning all by himself, or the saves we saw not too many years ago is that the drivers aren't running as hard as they did a few years ago, and a lot of that is directly from the point system that's currently used. The drivers have to make sure they get to the finish, and because they know they have to get to the finish, they're just not driving as hard as they did two or three years ago, when they were still using the Latford point system, which gave more weight to the top five finishers in a race, rather than one point per position throught the field from second on down. That also means that there's virtually no incentive to race hard, even for second and third place. Another reason for the longer green flag runs is the shorter fuel runs. Two or three years ago, they could still nurse the cars for 90-100 miles on a single tank of fuel, but now they get just 75-80. That means that the drivers don't have to manage their equipment, especially their tires, since about the time the tires start to wear, it's time to refuel, so they get changed anyway. Add the shorter fuel runs to the more conservative style racing racing brought on by the points system, and the start-and-parks, which reduce the number of cars that actually try to run the full race (nine cars did not try to run the full distace at Loudon), which in turn opens up more track for those trying to run the full race, and what you get is prolonged periods of green flag racing, with virtally no accidents. Then there is the wave-around, which allows cars to get laps back that didn't exist prior to the middle of the 2009 season. Add all that together, and it's not that the cars are easier to drive this season, but rather the drivers are, for the most part, not driving them hard for the great majority of the race, because there's really no incentive to drive them to the edge. 211. 10andJoe posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >It's very clear now that the Nationwide Series is just a preliminary Cup race, rather than a small National series for up-and-coming drivers. R.I.P: Hickory Myrtle Beach South Boston Pikes Peak Gateway Memphis Nashville USA Indianapolis Raceway Park Rockingham Nazareth Milwaukee ...all tracks an up-and-coming driver could cut his teeth on in the "big leagues", all tracks the Busch Series used to run on, and all tracks they don't no more. Here's what we need to do to save BGN/NNS: -Go back to V-6 engines. -Cut a few 'second race' companion races from the schedule, and add more of the short tracks back (most of which were dropped because they couldn't handle 43 cars...which brings us to:) -Cut the field to 36 cars, and raise the per-car payout accordingly, while slicing entry fees. -Bar drivers who are entered in a weekend's Cup Series event and who are running for Cup Series points from competing in other events held on the same weekend. 212. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, I think they should just go back to good old fashioned track capacity for the entry lists. 213. LordLowe posted: 07.16.2012 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know how much more of these boring races I can take I feel like I am going to snap at any time now. If only Dale Sr were still here then maybe NASCAR wouldn't be in the sorry state that its in now. 214. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.16.2012 - 8:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Dale Sr were alive, he would have quit. He seriously would quit and go on a fishing trip all over North America in an RV. However, for all we know, if Dale Sr were alive, Mark Martin might have won 12 races en route to the 2003 title and we would have no Chase. Everything would change, so it is hard to speculate. But Dale Sr were alive, and there were a Chase, he would denounce the sport and all the pansies that drive in it. 215. Anonymous posted: 07.16.2012 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 213, nobody is forcing you to watch the races. I personally dont even tune into the races, except for the road courses and restrictor plate tracks. nascar has been in this "sorry state" for quite a while. 216. Ivan Balakhonov posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 208. Mr X posted: 07.16.12 - 2:41 am Great post. Unfortunately NA$CAR is deaf to all this. Been like that for many years now. When will they start to care and move in the right direction, I don't know. At least I hope they won't ruin trucks, the only top division where there's no problem with the quality of racing... 217. BON GORDON posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright I want someone who has time to tell me whats wrong with Nascar and how it can be fixed. And......go!!! 218. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ivan Balakhonov, the real problems, as I stated in post #210, have to do, not with how easy the cars are to drive, because I think they're not that easy to drive, but rather the fact that there's little or no incentive to race hard, whether it's from the points system, or the fact that a driver can get a lap back simply by staying out during a caution when the leaders pit. And let's not forget that other reasons for the relative lack of action have to do with the fact that you have shorter fuel runs, which decrease the effect of tire wear, and have mostly eliminated the need for tire conservation, and the fact that there are fewer cars on the track due to the start-and-parks. For instance, nine cars in this past weekend's race had no intention of going the distance. That's greater than 20% of the starting field. What that does, as Darrell Waltrip once pointed out, is to give the drivers more room to operate, which in turn lessens the chances of drivers running into each other. Another factor in the relative lack of competition is the lack of competitve cars and teams. Among those running the full races, there are really only 18-23 really competitve cars, the others are just trying to get as good a finish as possible, and with fewer competitve cars will natually come a decrease in the amount of competition. And again with fewer competitve cars, there is less incentive for the guys to go out and race hard, because if they just finish the race, they'll get a decent finish. Certainly aerodynamics has a major part in the malaise in the action the last few years, but there are many other factors to consider, the point system, fewer cars running the full race, shorter fuel runs, fewer competitve cars than in recent memory, and the ability to get laps lost due to not pitting under caution. All this adds up to a decrease in competition in NASCAR, and I don't really see this improving any time soon. In fact, it may get worse before it gets better. 219. Schroeder51 posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm sorry to say, 10andJoe, that that will never happen in a thousand years. Those old short tracks were fun to watch; I am definitely a short track kind of guy. But unfortunately NASCAR will never go back to tracks like those for the Nationwide Series (No matter what, "Nationwide Series" will never sound quite right to me, it doesn't roll off the tongue like "Busch Series" does). I think NASCAR would prefer that the Nationwide Series and Cup Series have identical schedules-I honestly wouldn't be surprised if 10 years down the road their schedules WERE the exact same. It's not profitable for NASCAR to revisit old tracks like Hickory or Roguemont or South Boston because they don't have the capacity to hold as many people as the tracks on the Cup circuit too. NASCAR is a business and is primarily interested in what will give them the most profit as opposed to what will entertain the fans the most. It's sad...but it's the truth. Had to be bluntly honest. And sadly, the sponsors want the Cup drivers in the Nationwide fields. They are more interested in having a Cup driver drive a car sponsored by them than an up and coming driver because they would rather have positive exposure than negative exposure. They're thinking that a Cup driver is more likely to put their sponsor in Victory Lane while an up and comer is more likely to stuff a car sponsored by them in the wall. It's pure business through and through. The fact that nearly half the votes on the NASCAR.com poll said that the Cup race was the best race of the weekend says a few things to me. Either most of the people on NASCAR.com only watch Cup races (I wouldn't be surprised if that were true) so they vote for it by default or a lot of people only tuned in for the last 30 laps or so, saw Denny Hamlin trying to chase down Kasey Kahne, and concluded it was a good race overall. When there is a race with an exciting finish or a race where a milestone is achieved, people will tend to remember that and forget the rest of the race itself. For example, I remember a NASCAR.com poll had fans voting for what they thought were the top 10 races ever run in NASCAR out of I believe 50 races total. (This was a couple years ago, so I can't remember exactly). Among the top 10 the fans voted for were the 1998 Daytona 500 which Dale Earnhardt won as we all know, and the 2007 spring Phoenix race where Jeff Gordon tied Dale Earnhardt in career wins. The people who voted on that poll pretty clearly only voted for those races because of the milestones achieved in them. A lot of people actually forget the 1998 Daytona 500 was a very dull race (pretty much the whole race was led by either Earnhardt or Gordon) and I don't remember the '07 Phoenix race being all that great of a race either. It's either those two options I mentioned above...or the people on NASCAR.com are just dumb as a whole and will think any race NASCAR runs is a great race overall. That's probably the most likely option. 220. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51, a classic case in point as far as remembering the finish and forgettng the rest of the race was the 1992 Indianapolis 500. That entire race was an abomination, from the pre-race incidents all the way through the race, with several drivers being hospitalized, including Mario and Jeff Andretti wth foot and leg injuries, the latter with catastrophic leg injuries, as well as Rick Mears and Emerson Fittipaldi, as well as a nearly horrific T-bone crash between Philippe Gache and Stan Fox at about mid-race, as well as Michael Andretti's utter domination of that race, but all that people remember is the last 10 laps and the air-tight finish between Al Unser, Jr. and Scott Goodyear. In fact, I rate that race as the worst Indianapolis 500 in modern history. Yes, worse than even the 1973 debacle. 221. Spen posted: 07.16.2012 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another probable factor in the lackluster on-track action this season likely stems from the Busch brothers antics since Texas last year. Kyle's suspension, plus Kurt's ostracization from the upper-echelon of racing, has likely sent all drivers a message to not put any toes out of line. I'm sure that the companies shelling out money for these drivers have given them all strict warnings that they must avoid anything that might embarass their brand. Basically, the "boys have at it" mentality was proven to be unsustainable, and no one is willing to jepordize their career by testing where the new boundries might be. In the absract of course, sponsors love on track incidents and the resulting drama. Anything that increases viewership is a good thing, after all. But no one wants to be the company losing profits because your driver is suffering from fan backlash. It has to be someone else causing trouble. And when 30 companies are all giving their drivers the exact same instruction, we get 500 miles of parade laps. 222. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.16.2012 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Mr X. It is hard to express how we feel wiithout coming across as "I wanna see them boys wreck", but NASCAR racing has become its stereotype, just cars going in circles. What bothers me the most is the lack of passing throughout the field. I just hope the R&D department is working overtime to fix this for the 2013 cars. 223. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again DSFF, the lack of passing has a lot to do with many of the factors I've mentioned, the inability of the cars to run close together due to aerodynamics, the alck of aggressiveness due to the point system, which makes even going for second place not worth the risk, the fact that the short fuel runs mean that the drivers don't have to conserve their tires, because when the tires start to wear, it will be time to pit for fuel, which means an automatic tire change, the start-and-parks decreasing the on-track traffic by as much as 20% of the starting field (it's usually around 15% of the field that S&P's), and the lack of competitive cars from even a few years ago, as there are only 18-23 really good cars in a Cup race, maximum. Add all that together with the fact that the drivers can make up lost laps by simply not pitting when the leaders do under caution, and what you get is dull and monotonous races, because the drivers have no incentive to race hard. And again, if anything, I see this getting worse before it gets better. 224. Rusty posted: 07.16.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said this in a previous race discussion, but the lack of action and excitement this year is a polar opposite of last season. We got a lot of first time and surprise winners, some good racing and the closest championship battle ever (impossible to get any closer than it did lol). This year we have predictable, boring races with an extreme lack of cautions. If it weren't for NASCAR throwing BS debris cautions, we'd have hardly any cautions this year. Also, that doesn't mean I want wrecks. But long spread out green flag runs is not exciting either. 225. Talon64 posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne picks up his 14th career Sprint Cup Series victory, tying him with Dick Hutcherson and LeeRoy Yarbrough for 51st all time. It's also his 2nd win of 2012, his 4th multi-win season in 9 years in Cup. 9 of Kahne's 14 career wins have come from front row starting positions, and all of them have come from starting inside the top 10. It's Kahne's 3rd straight top 10 finish (3.3 avg fin) Which followed 3 straight outside of the top 10 (25.3 avg fin), which followed 7 straight top 10's (6.0 avg fin), which followed 6 straight races without a top 10 to start 2012 (28.5 avg fin). But over the last 13 races, Kahne has gone from 31st to 12th in the standings. And Kahne now has 10+ top 10's in 5 consecutive seasons and 7 of 9 seasons in his career. It's Kahne's 1st win in 17 starts at Loudon, just his 2nd top 5 there and just his 2nd top 10 in the last 12 races (7 top 10's, 16.8 avg fin). This is the 11th time in Denny Hamlin's career that he's led 150+ laps in a race (7 on short tracks, 9 on tracks 1 mile or shorter). Hamlin has 5 wins and 2 runner-up finishes in those races, including 2nd in this race. Hamlin now leads the series with 3 runner-up finishes this season, and is tied with Tony Stewart for the most top 2 finishes with 5. Hamlin has 3 top 5's and 3 finishes of 25th or worse over the last 6 races (17.3 avg fin). Hamlin now has 10+ top 10's in all 7 of his full seasons in Cup. It's Hamlin's 4th top 3 finish in the last 6 races at Loudon (8.5 avg fin in 13 starts). Clint Bowyer equals his top 5's from all of 2011 with his 4th of 2012. Like fellow '06 rookie Hamlin, his 10th top 10 of the season gives him 10+ top 10's all of his 7 full seasons in Cup. It's his first top 10 in the 3 races since his Sonoma win, but his 5th in the last 7 races. It's Bowyer's 3rd top 5 at Loudon, his first that isn't a victory. It's his 3rd top 10 in the last 5 Loudon races, but just the 5th of his career there (13 starts, 15.9 avg fin). Dale Earnhardt Jr. has 4 top 5's in the last 7 races, with 3 of them being 4th place finishes. He's the first driver in the modern era to start a season with 19 straight lead lap finishes, completing all 5,488 laps run so far. His 8 top 5's this season double his total from 2011 and is already more than the 7 he had in 2010 and 2011 combined. Dale Jr. hasn't finished higher than 4th at Loudon since a 3rd place finish, his best there, back in September of 2004. But 5 of his 7 top 5's at Loudon have come in the 15 races since (11 top 10's, 16.2 avg fin in 26 starts). Brad Keselowski picks up his season-high 3rd straight top 10 finish, and his 12th straight finish of 18th or better (9.2 avg fin). Of Keselowski's 6 top 5's this season, 3 are wins and the other 3 are 5th place finishes. It's Keselowski's 2nd straight top 5 at Loudon and his 3rd top 10 in 6 starts there (15.3 avg fin). Jeff Gordon has scored the 5th most points of anyone over the last 8 races, on the strength of 5 top 10's and no finish worse than 19th (9.2 avg fin, T-3rd best). Gordon's gone from 24th to 17th in points over that stretch, just 23 points back of 12th (so yes his good finishes are helping his chances of making the Chase!). Loudon becomes the 10th different track that Jeff Gordon has 20+ top 10's at (10.7 avg fin in 35 starts). It's his 8th top 6 finish in the last 12 races there (6.7 avg fin). Jimmie Johnson and Dale Earnhardt Jr. remain tied for the most top 10's this season with 14, with both drivers having yet to go back-to-back races without a top 10. It's Johnson's 14th top 10 in 21 Loudon starts (9.9 avg fin), including 11 in the last 14 races. Kevin Harvick gets his best finish in the last 6 races in 8th, just his 2nd top 10 over that stretch (but a decent 13.7 avg fin). He has yet to have more than back-to-back top 10's at any point this season. But it's his 3rd top 10 in the last 5 races at Loudon, and his 12th in 23 starts there (13.8 avg fin). Greg Biffle picks up just his 3rd top 10 in the last 7 races, after having 8 in the first 12 races of the season and leading the points (currently 3rd). He has just 4 top 10's in his last 12 Loudon starts, but that includes a win in 2008 (8 top 10's, 16.2 avg fin in 20 starts). After going 11 straight races without a top 10, Ryan Newman now has top 10's in back-to-back races. Newman's 14 top 10's at Loudon are his most at any track (12.9 avg fin in 21 starts) and it's his 5th top 10 in the last 6 races there. 226. LordLowe posted: 07.16.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I were In Charge of this Sport here is what I would do Reduce the drivers salary by 50 percent Add more downforce to the cars Reintroduce that roof fin from the 2000 winston 500 to the intermediate tracks Use bias Ply tires and different tire manufactures Use this points system that is explained below 1st|180/25 2nd|170 3rd|160 4th|145 5th|130 6th|115 7th|100 8th|85 9th|70 10th|55 11th|40 12th|20 13th|15 14th|10 15th|5 There will be 25 additional points for the person who finishes 1st There will also be 10 bonus points for the driver who leads the most laps There will also be 5 bonus points for the driver who wins the pole. Its like the Latford system the drivers used in past seasons only there is more emphasis on wining and not driving like a pansy. 227. David posted: 07.16.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, who would lead the standings under that system? 228. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, some of your ideas make no sense. First of all, having more than one tire manufacturer is a terrible idea, because the only thing that would lead to would be tire failures, crashes, teams potentially going out of business due to rocketing costs of building cars as well as skyrocketing tire bills, and possibly broken and battered drivers from all the crashes. I'm not sire you remember the last tire war in 1994, but it was horrendous. That tire war led to, among other things, Ernie Irvan nearly losing his life at Michgan while battling Dale Earnhardt for the championship, two fatalities at Daytona during SpeedWeeks, the last time a driver lapped the entire field in a Cup race (North Wilkesboro in the fall of 1994), and numerous drivers injured due to crashes caused by tire failures. Also, the drivers' salaries are determined by the car owners, so that's something that no sanctioning body can control. However, your idea of putting the roof fin on the cars at the intermediate tracks to increase the efect of drafting is a great idea, and one I proposed on this site at about this time last year. Your idea of ADDING downforce, as contrversial as it would be, would be a good one, as well. However, I don't like the idea of big bonuses for winning, and never have, because that would promote cheating, and I'm dead set against anything that might promote cheating. Also, giving points for qualifying would effectively undo what NASCAR did when they instituted the one-engine rule, which they did for 2002 to eliminate qualifying engines, and special qualifying setups, and reduce the costs, which has worked. All NASCAR has to do where points are concerned is to reward all the top finishing positions more. Having the same point interval among the top positions will always promote conservative driving. That's one reason why there's been no dominant driver the last two seasons since the one point per position system was adopted, because it doesn't pay to take the risk. In fact LordLowe, your system actually decreases the point separation the higher you go in the finishing order, which would only promote conservative driving even more. Again, my points system would leave the points as they curently are from 11th through the balance of the finishing order, because every position should count for something, but increase the points the higher up you go. From 11th, which would be 33 points, you increase two per position through sixth, making sixth worth 43 points. Then you increase three per position through second, which would make second worth 55 points, then go up five more points for the wnner, which would give him 60 points. Leave the bonus points as they currently are. 229. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only change I might make in the bonus points if you used the current system would be to reward three points for leading the most laps, two for leading the second-most, and one for leading the third-most, and keep the one bonus point for officially leading the race at any point. That could potentially mean that under my system, a guy winning the race would not get fewer than two points more than the second pace finisher, but could get as many as nine points more than the second place finisher, if he scored maximum lap leader points, and the driver coming home second never led. However, if you do this, then the margin in points between first and second should then go up to seven (62-55) so that the fewest that can be gained by a winner would be four, but the winner could gain as many as 11 if the difference between the points 1-5 went 62-55-52-49-46. however, a 7-5-3-3-3 difference bewteen the top five finishing positions, thus a 64-57-52-49-46 top five points breakdown wouldn't be bad either before counting bonus points. 230. 10andJoe posted: 07.16.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Also, giving points for qualifying would effectively undo what NASCAR did when they instituted the one-engine rule, which they did for 2002 to eliminate qualifying engines, and special qualifying setups, and reduce the costs, which has worked. Has it? Or has it simply run up the cost now that your race engine has to be tuned for qualifying as well AND has to be sure to survive the race while also being fast? It wouldn't surprise me if that was one reason some teams start and park: they have to wind their 'One Engine' tightly enough to be sure of getting in the race, that it would never survive running more than a few laps IN the race. (Such as for instance Erik Darnell in Curtis Key's lone 'full race' car in this weekend's NNS race; engine blew on lap 3...) 231. 10andJoe posted: 07.16.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I think one barometer of how bad things really are can be seen in the Truck Series, which used to be the cheapest, most "newbie-friendly" series of NASCAR's big three, where just about anybody could show up and take a shot at making it. And which had, the last few years, run chronically short fields over the summer months (and with only nominal 36 truck fields, instead of 43); this weekend only 32 trucks are entered at Chicago. On one side, that means fewer S&Ps, since the field fillers would almost certainly do that. On the other though... (And I still wonder why nobody does the "roll off the backup truck, use a blow drier to remove one of the numbers, grab somebody with a helmet bag in their hand and run two laps to fill the field" thing anymore.) 232. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, the biggest reasons teams start-and park have to do not only with engines, but also tires and the fear of crashing. I think the biggest reason of all is the tire bill, which the teams that start-and-park simply can not afford. In fact, three cars in the Loudon Cup race ran as far as they could on a tank of fuel and then parked, simply because they could not afford to change tires. Remember that the tire bill itself for a weekend now runs about $20,000 in most races, and for tracks where there are a lot of pit stops made, it can run up to double that. The low-buck teams just can not afford to change tires. And I don't think the one-engine rule has run up the cost because fewer engines have to be built because they now have to go through an entire weekend on just one engine. Any engine change after the teams get to the track, except for the Daytona 500 because of the qualifying races, results in starting in the back of the field, which in most instances means that they have little or no chance to win that particular race because they could never adequately catch up. Now there has been a lot of engine development since the rule was first instituted more than a decade ago so that they can go a full weekend with just one engine, but that's certainly better than putting an engine in for just 5-7 laps and then changing it. In fact, some teams used to run three or four engines on a single weekend quite frequently. The one-engine rule has certainly put a stop to that. 233. Schroeder51 posted: 07.16.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they used to allow drivers to change engines during the races themselves? I think that was back in the 1970s and early 1980s (cjs, you would probably know this). 234. LordLowe posted: 07.16.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is something else I would do if I were in charge of NASCAR Ban the Cup drivers from racing in the Nationwide and Truck races. Tell Danica Patrick these three words: YOUR FIRED BITCH. 235. cjs3872 posted: 07.16.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes they did, Schroeder51, but it was usually fruitless. In 1979 or '80, NASCAR finally outlawed changing engines during a race. It's even mentioned on the broadcast of the 1980 Daytona 500 that it had been outlawed. Prior to that, Junior Johnson's team got to where they could change engines in 15 minutes and even boasted they could do it in 10. But the reason that was outlawed wasn't for competition reasons, but rather because of a bad economy at that time. And while we were on the subject of what NASCAR could do to make the racing better, one thing they can do is to lift the testing ban at tracks where one of the top three series runs, because that really changed the quality of racing. For instance, when the Truck series went to Rockingham earlier this year, that meant that teams could no longer test there, and that was a popular place for testing. Now teams can still test all they want at tracks where NASCAR's top series no longer runs (Milwaukee and Pikes Peak are popular tracks for testing for that reason, as are several road courses that are not used by NASCAR), but except for sanctioned tire tests, there is no testing allowed at tracks where the top series runs. Lifting that ban would, in my opinion, help the racing out. But that would cost the teams money, which is why that will probably not happen any time soon, if ever. 236. cheat master posted: 07.16.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Having more cheating in NASCAR is a good thing. It encourages innovation. Remember if your not cheating, your not trying to win. Like me name says, I cheat. The cheating I do is in videogames though. 237. David posted: 07.16.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was 1980. The DiGard crew servicing Darrell Waltrip's car in the fall Martinsville race of 1979 changed the engine in under twelve minutes after it blew. 238. cjs3872 posted: 07.17.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the info David. I knew that changing engines during a race had been outlawed by 1980, but I wasn't sure if had been outlawed in 1979, so thanks for the info. And it's not a good idea to have cheating in NASCAR, or any sport for that matter. It's always good to have innovation in auto racing, as long as it's within the rules. After all, there have been many innovations created in auto racing, as well as innovative cars, such as Andy Granatelli's 4-wheel drive gas turbine carin the 1967 Indianapolis 500. In fact, the very first rear view mirror ever was on the car that won the very first Indianapolis 500 in 1911, which was an idea Ray Harroun had to run his car about 175 lbs. lighter than everyone else. But all innovations made in racing should have to be within the rules. But I don't like the idea of anything promoting cheating, because cheating is breaking the rules and gives the guilty party an unfair, and most importantly, an illegal advantage over everyone else that is playing by the rules. 239. Rusty posted: 07.17.2012 - 2:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The latest bit of NASCAR gossip has Andretti Autosport on the fast track for 2013 entrance into Cup with Kurt Busch as its' driver. 240. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.17.2012 - 8:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The idea is to push the envelope WITHIN the rules... Gray areas are even a bit dangerous to go into. Really, if you are that good of a mechanic/engineer, you should be able to make a winning car without having to push the rulebook. 241. Rusty posted: 07.17.2012 - 8:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chad Norris is taking over as crew chief for Carl Edwards and the #99 team. He was last crew cheif for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. in the Daytona 500. 242. David posted: 07.17.2012 - 10:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bob Osborne stepped down, citing health issues. 243. cjs3872 posted: 07.17.2012 - 11:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Health issues? I seriously doubt that, unless he means the health of the team. And Rusty, if Michael does plan to go Cup racing with Kurt Busch next year, it would make sense, since Busch has a lot of experience with those engines, running for Penske for six years, and that he carries with him a past champion's provisional for those first five races, thus guaranteeing the car a spot in the first five races (including the Daytona 500) without having to purchase another team's points. But entering the sport with just a one-car team is not a particularly good idea, and it's an even worse idea with someone as unstable at Kurt is. I hope Michael knows what he's getting into if he does hire Busch, because nobody's been able to handle him yet, and I don't think Michael will be able to, either. Heck, I don't even think Mario could handle a guy like Kurt. 244. David posted: 07.17.2012 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I only posted that because it was on NASCAR.COM's homepage. 245. Paul posted: 07.17.2012 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Ryan Blaney will be driving the No. 22 Penske Racing Dodge in three Nationwide races this year. He'll be running at Iowa in a couple weeks, Richmond, and Kentucky. 246. Smiff_99 posted: 07.17.2012 - 12:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^That's AWESOME! Glad one of the big teams is interested in the kid.....he's got a future in this sport, for sure. 247. cjs3872 posted: 07.17.2012 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder what Ryan Blaney's signing means for Parker Kligerman's future with Penske. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that Kligerman might be on thinner ice at Penske than a lot of people think, but again, that's just a guess. And this whole thing about the change in Carl Edwards' crew chief is this. he and Bob Osborne, while successful, have never been consitently successful. Remember that after his win in the 2008 season finale, his ninth of that season, it was two years before Edwards won again, as he won the final two races of 2010, which were his first wins since that 2008 season finale. Now after taking the third race of the season last year, which counting the final two races of 2010, was his third in five races, he's endured through another long winless drought. And the naming of Chad Norris as Edwards' crew chief may also be telling, since it my very well indicate that Roush could be shutting his Nationwide team down at season's end, because I think there's a great chance that Mike Kelley will move up to Cup with Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. If that's the case, Roush may already have made the decision to shut down his Nationwide team, but that's just speculation. 248. 10andJoe posted: 07.17.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alternatively, it means we could see Kligerman taking over Hornish's NNS ride when the latter moves back up to Cup, with Blaney in the 22 full time (or vice versa). 249. 10andJoe posted: 07.17.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ Roush has already stated they intend to run Bayne in NNS next year full time. 250. MStall41 posted: 07.17.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roof fins at Intermediate tracks would be a brilliant idea. They could get rid of the ridiculous shark fin and put a subtle roof fin up top. That would improve the intermediate tracks pretty much immediately, as the increased draft would foster ALOT more passing and it wold neutralize the clean air effect. 251. cjs3872 posted: 07.17.2012 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, Roush would certainly like to put Trevor Bayne in a Nationwide car for a full season, but the question is, will he have funding to do so? And will he effectively put an entire new team together if Mike Kelley moves with Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. up to Cup next season, because if Kelley moves up to Cup with Stenhouse, Roush would almost have to create a new team for Bayne if he wanted to put him in a Nationwide car for a full season, especially since the man who had been Bayne's crew chief before that team was shut down (Chad Norris) is now Carl Edwards' new Cup crew chief. That's why I think the news that Norris has been named Edwards' Cup crew chief may signal the end of Roush's Nationwide Series team. It will be interesting to see what kind of team Roush puts together for Trevor Bayne at Bristol in the Nationwide Series race there this August, especially who his crew chief might be. And also, the reason I see the hiring of Ryan Blaney as bad news for Parker Kligerman has to do with the fact that we know Brad Keselowski's going to dive the majority of the races in the #22 NNS car for the foreseeable future. Now what Penske might do is to put Blaney in the car so that Keselowski can focus on winning the Chase, so I see Keselowski, Blaney, and Hornish as the three primary drivers with Penske's Nationwide effort next year, with Kligerman getting a reduced role, if not let go all together, because Kligerman seems to have regressed this year. 252. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.17.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In a perfect world all these top dollar rides would go to up and comers, not just the #3 and #6 cars (sorry, had to take a moment to smile as those numbers reminded me of 1990). The #'s 18, 20, 22, and 33 would go to overachievers in underfunded equipment like Jeremy Clements, Taylor Malsam, Johanna Long, and Ryan Blaney (full time). 253. LordLowe posted: 07.17.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF Remember the bet I made between you and CJS earlier in the year involving Jeff Gordon making or not making the chase well it appears that you have lost the bet DSFF and You owe CJS 24 dollars because it appears (that unless Gordon grows a spine on restarts and decides to get rid of his useless crew chief) Gordon will not make the chase this year. If CJS had lost the bet he would have had to do 24 backflips. Also CJS did you put a curse on Gordon for him to be unlucky all year 254. cjs3872 posted: 07.17.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No I did not put a curse on Gordon, LordLowe. I just looked at history, specifically Alan Gustafson's history as a crew chief, and figured that gordon would not have another good season as he did last year. Another reason I figured Gordon would struggle would be the arrival of Kasey Kahne and Kenny Francis, specifically Francis, who has a history of not sharing info with the crew chiefs of the team cars wherever he's worked (note Brian Vickers comeback this year as another element of proof), and Rick Hendrick's main goal in 2012 of getting his flgship car back to victory lane, as well as getting Earnhardt back to victory lane, and it all spelled out a bad 2012 for Gordon, but his season has been even worse than I imagined, because I still had him penned in for the Chase. And if you watched Race Hub, Jimmy Spencer noted that there might be some dissention between Gordon and Gustafson, as Gordon seemed to be calling out his crew chief at long last. My answer to that is, what took so long, Jeff? Gustafson's been deep-sixing Gordon's runs this year, as he did with Mark Martin, Casey Mears (admittedly, Mears wasn't up to that lofty standard), and Kyle Busch in years past. In today's NSCAR, no team is ever going to be successful if it has a crew chief that can't call a race and constantly makes bad strategy calls, and that's been my bone of contention with Gustafson. And he made two more this week. But Gordon's lack of speed this year has been most surprising of all, and that's what Gordon seemed to be calling Gustafson out on more than the nearly weekly bad calls that put Gordon back further than he should be. As for your asseessment that Gordon should be more aggressive on restarts, that's never been the way he races. A classic case of this occurred in the 1999 Daytona 500, when he and Dale, Sr. were about eighth and ninth on the final restart. Earnhardt climbed to third in just one lap, while Gordon decided not to make any rash moves until necessary, and passed them one at a time. Gordon has always been the most calculating driver on the circuit, deciding to wait his competition out, and it's cost him many times over the last six or seven years. 255. Spen posted: 07.17.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon hasn't missed the chase yet. If he gets one win, and can make up 21 points on Kyle Busch (the former looks harder than the latter), he could still sneak in. I doubt it, but until Richmond rolls around, he's not out of it. 256. cjs3872 posted: 07.18.2012 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is assuming Kyle Busch, Joey Logano, and/or Ryan Newman, who each have one win, don't win again until then, or if Carl Edwards doesn't either win until then, or gains enough points on Tony Stewart (currently seventh) or Brad Keselowski (currently tenth) to possibly knock one of them into one of the Wild Card spots. After all, if Keselowski and/or Stewart ran into a streak of bad luck similar to what befell Kyle Busch earlier this year (blown engines in three consecutive races, wih all thre failures happening under caution), then all bets are off, and Kasey Kahne may not even be a lock any more, despite being 12th with two wins. But Gordon's not winning this year, barring a miracle, so I don't think it would matter to him. 257. Schroeder51 posted: 07.18.2012 - 2:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only do I not think Jeff will win a race this year...you all are going to think I'm crazy when I say this. But I think that win at Atlanta will be the final win of Jeff's career-period. I honestly do not believe he will win another race for the rest of his career, which probably only has 2-3 years left (Honestly, I would not be surprised if he decided to hang up his helmet after next year or the year after that). And I honestly get that feeling that the Atlanta win last year was his last "Hurrah". I would love to be proven wrong, though. But that is just what I think. I'm already prepared to be called a lunatic. 258. Spen posted: 07.18.2012 - 4:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't see anyone of the current top ten in points falling out. 46 points is a pretty stiff order these days. With start-and-parks, and other totally non-competitive teams, unless you have an engine failure (which is pretty rare for any 'name' driver except for Kyle Busch), your worst possible finish is around 25th. With Edwards usually finishing somewhere around 9th, that's about 16 points he can gain on a given weekend. It'd take three races like that to make up the difference, and Edwards would have to be mistake-free during that time. Which hasn't exactly been easy for him this year. I'd give the current top ten at least a 90% chance of staying there until Richmond. Kasey I think is fairly safe too. In order to fall out, either Keselowski or Stewart has to fall out of the top ten (which as I stated above, seems highly unlikely), or drivers from 11th-20th in points have to win at least three of the next seven races. Not impossible, but a tall order. I'd give Kasey a 75% chance of making the chase. It's the twelfth driver who's identity is currently a mystery. If Kyle, Joey or Ryan get a second win, they immediately jump to the top of the list. But I have my doubts about all three of them. Newman's odds are the most grim of the three. This race was pretty much his only hope of getting a second win before the chase, and he barely scraped tenth. I personally doubt he'll get more than one top ten in the next seven races, so his chances of outpointing the Gibbs duo aren't looking good either. About the only positive I can say is that he's twelve points ahead of Gordon, putting him in a marginally better situation for the moment. But I don't expect it to hold. Newman's chase odds: 5%. On paper of course, Kyle is the obvious frontrunner. But the upcoming stretch of 2-2.5 mile tracks plays against him. He's got a shot at the Glen, but having not won a road race since '08, I don't put much faith in him there. Bristol is by far his best chance, but the reconfiguration could potentially throw his team for a loop. That would put him in a "do or die" situation at Richmond. And if history is anything to go by, when given that choice Kyle always picks 'die'. His window of opportunity is getting narrower by the week, and pressure is not his friend. On the plus side, he's in a decent points posistion right now (though given how his season's gone, I expect another blown engine before the chase), and he is Kyle freakin' Busch, which gives him an automatic edge. Busch's odds: 30%. Logano could be a real sleeper pick. Indy, Pocono and Michigan all play to his strengths, and one sealed deal could put him over the hump. On the flip side, this *is* Joey Logano we're talking about. Not exactly known for being a chase calliber driver. But the schedule does seem to favor him more than Busch. Logano's odds: 25%. So if Gordon can keep up the recent consistent finishes, and his main opponents keep doing what they've been doing all year, I can see him making up enough points to get ahead of the other three. Of course, that will be a moot point if he doesn't win anything, but if he can pull off a win at Atlanta (which is probably his best hope), it's still conceivible for him to make the chase. It's not a great chance, but it's a chance. I'd put his odds at 15%. But then there's the 'spanner in the works' to borrow a troperism: Carl Edwards. He's been borderline invisible all year long, and doesn't look consistent enough to make the top ten. But this crew chief change just might get Carl's head back in the game. If he can pull off a win at Michigan, everyone else's chances start looking very bad (particularly Busch's, since this would put huge pressure on him for Bristol). The words 'Carl Edwards' and 'race winner' have gone together on a shockingly seldom basis these last three and a half years, but for some odd reason, I've got a gut feeling that he just might pull it off. I'll give him the same 30% chance as Shrub. For completion's sake, I'll give Marcos Ambrose a 2.5% chance of winning both Watkins Glen and Bristol and backdooring his way into the chase, a 1% chance of Menard defending his Brickyard win (heck, a 1% chance of getting a top five sometime this season), and a 0.5% chance of Jeff Burton or Jamie McMurray getting on an incomprehensible hot streak. 259. Spen posted: 07.18.2012 - 5:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apropos of nothing, here's another one of those 'all-time stats you never read about' lists that we were doing a few weeks back. "Number of races won after the driver turned 40": 1. Lee Petty 42 2. Bobby Allison 38 3. Dale Earnhardt 26 4. Dale Jarrett 24 5. Cale Yarborough 23 6. David Pearson 21 7. Harry Gant 18 (Also holds the record for oldest first-time winner at 42.) 8. Richard Petty 16 9. Darrell Waltrip 14 10. Geoff Bodine 12 11. Mark Martin 11 12. Rusty Wallace 10 13. Tony Stewart 8 Joe Weatherly 8 15. Buck Baker 7 Ricky Rudd 7 17. Bill Elliott 4 Jim Paschal 4 Terry Labonte 4 Sterling Marlin 4 21. Neil Bonnett 3 Greg Biffle 3 Darel Dieringer 3 Bobby Hamilton 3 Morgan Shepherd 3 Nelson Stacy 3 27. Jeff Burton 2 Benny Parsons 2 Ward Burton 2 Tiny Lund 2 Eddie Gray 2 Bill Blair 2 (The first driver to accomplish this feat.) 33. Jeff Gordon 1 Buddy Baker 1 Curtis Turner 1 Cotton Owens 1 Dave Marcis 1 Joe Nemechek 1 Michael Waltrip 1 David Reutimann 1 Wendell Scott 1 42. Lake Speed 1 Notable zeros include Bobby Isaac, Bobby Labonte, Kyle Petty, and A.J. Foyt. This list should be encuraging to disillusioned Gordon fans, as every other driver with over fifty wins (who raced into their 40's, anyway) got at least ten of those wins after turning 40. I also find it interesting that the top three in this category all had career (and in Earnhardt's case life) ending crashes. Implying that they probably had more wins left in them than this list indicates. 260. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 6:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Gordon will make it to 90 wins before he hangs it up. It's not like he is non competitive. He has had cartoonishly bad luck this year (hence my constant comparisons to a certain animated coyote) as well as consistently shitty pit calls for which if that keeps up he might eliminate Alan from the picture with his bare hands. He will win some more. Remember Dover? Had NASCAR not screwed it up, we would have had Johnson - Gordon III: The Rubber Match. With JJ winning Martinsville '07 and Gordon winning the epic slipping and sliding battle of Atlanta '11 it would have been fun. Maybe I'll post the YouTube clip of the last 10 laps of that one here for the 5000th time lol. 261. LordLowe posted: 07.18.2012 - 7:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroder51 I will go one step further and say that Gordon will do what Rick Mears did 20 years earlier and retire during the off season. 262. David posted: 07.18.2012 - 11:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) J.J. Yeley is moving to Tommy Baldwin Racing. No details available. 263. 18fan posted: 07.18.2012 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, over the last couple years Kyle has been much stronger than Joey at Michigan, finishing 3rd and 1st in the two races last year and he came from 34th into the top 10 before he blew up. And he's been almost as strong as Joey at Pocono the last couple years as well. And by the way, Kyle has 3 top 5s in the last 4 races at Watkins Glen and he had Ambrose beat last year before the GWC and he lost it on the restart. Kyle has won at every track remaining before the chase except for Indy and Pocono. I think he has to be the odds on favorite at Richmond and Bristol and based on past performance and what happened the first time at the race tracks this year I think Kyle should have no problem getting. 264. Rusty posted: 07.18.2012 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks either Reutimann or Blaney is out of a gig at TBR, likely Reutimann. 265. ch posted: 07.18.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Reutimann goes to either the #22 or #73 full time. That would leave Blaney the 10 when Danica is not in it, and the 36 when Danica is in the 10. I say that Blaney moves to the 10 because that car S&Ps less. Finally JJ gets the 36, with a few S&Ps. The real question that I am clueless about is who will get the #49. It is an ok team that does run some full races and still has 7 of the 12 JPO Sponsored races left. Maybe Reed Sorenson??? 266. Sean posted: 07.18.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll really laugh if Gordon ends up beating all the 1-win drivers between 11th and 20th in points. It would mean that NASCAR itself screwed him out of his chase bid via that Dover race and its bogus caution that cost him a race that he was about 75% likely to win. I'm still dumbfounded by that. I'm used to NASCAR screwing over drivers who aren't fan favorites (Robby Gordon, Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch - my point with the Busch brothers is how do they get suspended for doing things that are in my opinion not nearly as bad as things Tony Stewart did ten years ago?) but I had NEVER, before that, seen NASCAR intentionally screw over a fan favorite. Between Junior's many lucky dogs on questionable cautions to get laps back (and Gordon, Johnson, and Kasey Kahne have gotten some too), Earnhardt, Sr. getting his lap back at Rockingham in 1995 after he was erroneously penalized (and I think VERY few other drivers would have gotten that treatment at about that time - compare Dale Jarrett's equally bogus penalty at Watkins Glen in 1997 that arguably cost him the title, especially when Jeff Gordon won there despite blatantly jumping several restarts), etc..., etc... Earnhardt, Earnhardt, Jr., J. Gordon, and Stewart all for years got breaks that some other drivers would not have gotten (compare Jerry Nadeau's penalty at Bristol in '99 when there wasn't much he could do to avoid Jarrett to Earnhardt's lack of penalty...) and I'm still dumbfounded that NASCAR would screw over a race for Gordon. I mean, okay, it makes up for some of the breaks HE got in the late '90s, but costing him a possible chase bid for that? And I don't even LIKE him. I still have issues with the David Reutimann caution at the end of the Martinsville race. I think they could have very easily run the last three laps under green, and in my opinion it is always better to AVOID caution if the expected carnage on the ensuing restart is greater than the carnage that would likely result from a wreck. There is a 99% chance NOTHING would have happened if they had not thrown caution, while there was probably a two thirds chance something would happen if they threw caution. Seemingly nobody agrees with me on this one. I suppose the REAL problem with that race was the GWC, which I liked in the trucks, but now HATE. Watch a lot of the old short track races from the '80s/early '90s and there were much more significant incidents that weren't cautions then... So in my mind Gordon was definitely screwed out of one win, and ARGUABLY two. Yeah, I can see the justification for the Reutimann caution, but I just think it RUINED a good race because anybody could see when they did that that the result would lead to chaos and an undeserving winner. This is also how I feel about plate tracks. While Reutimann's incident was more significant than a minor spin, I'm SICK of cautions for minor spins when nobody else is around and the driver can recover because they bunch up the field and lead to much bigger crashes. That's how I felt about Martinsville. But nobody seems to agree with me. Whatever. I definitely disagree with the cjs3872 argument that it is Gordon's destiny not to win, and sometimes I don't like how bold-faced his rather contentious predictions are. I think NASCAR's bogus officiating has kept Gordon out of victory lane more than Alan Gustafson this year. Sears Point was the only race I thought Gordon's strategy was actually deplorable, and I still think Bowyer or Truex was going to win that, because the MWR cars were ridiculously superior to anything else on track... I mean, really, Brian Vickers who should have annihilated his career with his ridiculous races at Martinsville and Phoenix last year was looking like some kind of superhero driving through the field twice and even blowing around Tony Stewart and Marcos Ambrose? C'mon... If the MWR cars were that superior, Gordon really didn't have a chance I think. 267. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Usually NASCAR's decisions are based on creating better drama, helping fan favorites, taking care of their official sponsors (hence Tony getting away with so much during his years in the Home Depot car), or helping out struggling manufacturers. A good example of this is the World 600 races run in '92 and '93, both Earnhardt wins. Heading into Memorial Day in 1992, nothing except for Ford Thunderbirds had gone to victory lane. And GM was not happy. Neither were the Chevy fans. So what could be better than an Earnhardt victory? Kyle Petty dominated, but lets face it, there were not many "Pontiac fans" and he certainly wasn't driving the GM Goodwrench car, and wasn't the face of Chevy like Dale was. In the last set of pit stops, under green, Kyle had a 3 second lead over Dale, had a comparble pit stop, and ended up 3 seconds behind Dale. NASCAR turning the other way while he sped in the pits? Oh yeah. Fast forward one year. By Memorial Day 1993 Dale was already threatening to make a mockery of the points battle. In that race he actually got a speeding penalty in the pits. But he passed th e leaders and was well in position to make up his lap if he got a caution. He was going to pass Greg Sacks who got loose in front of Dale, was never touched, and lost it. And NASCAR gave him a one lap rough driving penalty! Of all the incidents he triggered over the years and never got penalized for, they penalize him for that! The only other rough driving penalty he ever got was in the '88 World 600 when he dumped Bodine into the wall after Bodine bumped him after the Busch race when Dale dumped him the previous day. Of course a pissed off Dale stormed back by the leaders, got a caution, then stormed back by the leaders to an easy win in the first ever night time ending of that event. Bottom line, there is always a bottom line to NASCAR's selective penalties. Except at Dover. You are right Sean. Imagine if we had Gordon - Johnson III. That would have breathed life into this moribund season, and can you imagine how much better the wild card battle would be with Gordon in it? Sorry, but KyBu vs Logano vs Newman is really damn boring. And it certainly isn't helping what is perhaps the worst NASCAR season since 1978 (and this is a Brad fan saying this, he has already won 3 times). So once again, to NASCAR, thanks a lot assholes. 268. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To clear up my confusing talk about the 1988 World 600, here is a time line of events from that weekend. Saturday: During the Busch race Dale wrecks Bodine. Sunday: Bodine bumps Dale in the race to let him know he's not happy (cause his constant whining wasn't enough of an indicator). 5 seconds later: Dale wrecks Bodine again and gets a 5 lap penalty. 2012: DSFF smiles thinking about how Bodine was always Dale's bitch. 269. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.18.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Plus don't forget NASCAR throwing a caution last year at Michigan because Dave Blaney was on the apron getting ready to pit. To emphasize the bogusness of the Dover fiasco, that caution was a mystery debris caution. 270. cjs3872 posted: 07.18.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean (#266), they could not have safely finished that race at Martinsville under green with Reutimann's car stopped at the entrance to turn one. The call to throw a caution there was the only reasonable one, because there stood a good chance of someone else spinning into Reutimann's stopped car. The 1971 Indianapolis 500 proved that you can't race with cars parked at the edge of the track. And how can you say that Sonoma was the only race there was bad strategy calls this year by the #24 team. There were two bad ones this past week. And another reason I think Gordon will probably not win this year is that his cars just do not have the speed, and the only way I see him winning this year would be one of those situations where he's running thrd and the two leaders take each other out, and the best he's finished has been fourth, and with the tracks they're heading to now, where speed is important, he's been slow all year long. Sure he has tracks later this year he could win at, but by the time those races come, Hendrick Motorsports will be in their "Chase mode", which means putting everything behind the #48 team, as they've done every year since 2008, meaning that Kahne and Dale, Jr. are also likely to struggle, or at least not be as fast as they've been. And again DSFF, had there been no cautions at the end of that Dover race, there would have been no battle betwen Gordon and Johnson, because Gordon would have been half a lap ahead, if not slightly more, because he was pulling away from Johnson, despite the fact that Johnson was on fresher tires. Had those cautions not come out, Gordon might have won by about 12-14 seconds. 271. Talon64 posted: 07.18.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some notable milestones from the race: Denny Hamlin tied Fred Lorenzon for 49th all time with his 75th career top 5 finish. He also moved past Ernie Irvan into 34th all time in career laps led with 5,619. Clint Bowyer tied Speedy Thompson for 65th all time with his 105th career top 10. Brad Keselowski tied 7 other drivers for 155th all time with his 29th career top 10. It's mostly notable because two of the drivers he tied are active ones, Marcos Ambrose and AJ Allmendinger. 272. JG24FanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) um Iv'e notice the reference to Gordon-Johnson III at Dover, but it would actually have been Gordon-Johnson VI, since everyone has forgotten Gordon's epic last lap pass on Johnson at the fall Talladega event of 2007, and it's worth noting the intensity of Johnson's last ditch effort to pass Gordon back coming to the flag. and btw Gordon 7-Johnson 4 in 1-2 finishes. 273. JG24FanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^^^ I meant Gordon-Johnson IV, sorry for being stupid. 274. 18fan posted: 07.18.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What about Jeff vs. Jimmie at Martinsville this year before the Reutimann caution? That was set up to be an awesome finish. 275. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm talking about the two epic 10 lap battles to the checkered flag they have had at Martinsville '07 where JJ held of Jeff and his numerous bumps including his huge bump in the last corner that a lesser driver would never have saved from wrecking, let alone win the thing, and the Atlanta '11 race where JJ caught Gordon at the tail end of a tire run (translation: their tires were junk at that point), seemed to have him easily beaten only to see Gordon turn back the clock, refuse to lose, and get up on the wheel of his slipping and sliding #24 car, and turn the 5 time defending champ back. Those were the two epic battles. Dega '07 was good too, but it was pretty much a one lap deal. Granted at Dega a lot happens in a lap, but I wouldn't call it "epic". The previous two battles I mentioned, with each winning one apiece, were truly epic. 276. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for Dover this year, NASCAR would have thrown a late caution to erase Gordon's lead and then we could have another epic battle. Why they didn't wait to throw their bullshit caution until after everyone had pitted is beyond me. Now we have a grand total of zero dramatic moments and finishes from this year and a wild card battle between Kyle Busch, Ryan Newman, and Joseph Logano. Once again, to NASCAR, thanks assholes. 277. Sean posted: 07.18.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fine. I'll give on Reutimann at Martinsville. I acknowledge there's a safety issue there, and my REAL issue should be with the GWC pretty much nullifying everything that happened earlier in the race. It's just that from a lot of past Cup races I've seen from the '80s/early '90s there were a lot of things that would be auto-cautions now that weren't back then, and I think NASCAR maybe went too far in recent years even with legitimate cautions. Here's an example. With four laps left in the 1995 spring Talladega race, Terry Labonte spun into the grass well off the track with no other cars around. NASCAR doesn't throw a caution since no one else is near him. Nowadays, any kind of spinout would be an auto caution. The idea is that this is supposed to be "safer", but ESPECIALLY on plate tracks and ESPECIALLY with shootout-style restarts, it creates more significant crashes. Discussing the Reutimann caution in this light is probably wrong, since there is a safety issue with that (although I still think there's a very reasonable chance there wouldn't have been as big an incident as the Johnson/Gordon/Bowyer fracas without a caution there, especially since the cars were more spread out in that part of the race), so my real issue should be with the GWC artificially manipulating races, but hey, the fans wanted that by throwing crap on the track. But yeah, in that scenario, you're probably right that if somebody had hit Reutimann that would have been a much uglier incident than the GWC incident... I'm definitely holding my ground on all those instances when NASCAR throws cautions on plate tracks for single-car spins when the field is spread out. I definitely think NOT throwing a caution in that situation is the better thing to do to prevent a future big one. I'll admit that I'm probably wrong about Martinsville. Even though in the '80s there were a surprising number of things that would be auto-cautions now that NASCAR let go (even cars stalled entering pit lane), one of the big differences now is that they didn't start 43 cars on the short tracks either. Although the Martinsville result and the way it went down pissed me off, the correct way to fight this is just to argue against the GWC (and shootout style restarts, and cars coming back 100 laps down, etc..., etc...) Although NASCAR's officiating never makes sense, one reason I'm glad in retrospect that Earnhardt was allowed to keep the 1999 Bristol win was that if he'd had it stripped, it would have been a third undeserving win for Jimmy Spencer and probably would have led to his already-way-too-long career being extended even longer. He and Brett Bodine are honestly the guys who annoy me the way Michael Waltrip annoys you. I wonder if Earnhardt would have been penalized if T. Labonte had finished second instead of Spencer... I still do feel bad about Nadeau though since it's not like he wrecked Jarrett on purpose. Jarrett was way too slow and Nadeau caught up to him with a ridiculous closing rate that it would have been almost impossible to avoid him. Jarrett shouldn't have been on track, but man, that's another thing that has always annoyed me about NASCAR. Uncompetitive cars going back on the track because each position pays more points. That's the other real solution to the Reutimann at Martinsville situation. Simply give 26th-35th and 36th-43rd the same points, much like how IndyCar gives 18th-24th and 25th-33rd the same number of points, and you rarely see cars going back on the track for any reason (and you wouldn't see Carl Edwards coming back 100 laps down to punt Brad out of the top five in the last ten laps of the race at Atlanta). I used to say give positions outside the top 25 no points, but now I'll agree that IndyCar has it right here. Award all starters points, but make it impossible for anyone to gain points if they return to the track 100 laps down with a very questionable car... I guess I'm not noticing Alan Gustafson's bad calls very much because it seems like the exact same thing Jeff Gordon had with Steve Letarte. In the past few years, I've always thought Gustafson was pretty great and Letarte was pretty lame. I remember that Las Vegas race that Gordon flat out dominated in one of his winless seasons before taking 2 tires and essentially automatically giving Johnson the win. Now, it is becoming apparent that Letarte and Gustafson are really very similar. I think both of them are great with setups but pretty bad with pit calls. Letarte's teams tend to really do well at the start of a race and fade as the race nears the end. I guess in retrospect Letarte and Gustafson have different problems. Letarte's was in-race setups, while Gustafson's was in-race pit calls, but neither of them have ever impressed me very much. Well until Letarte actually made Junior a threat again I guess, which I honestly never saw happening after 2009 (I had made a similarly bull-headed pick after the 2009 Daytona 500 which I don't think I publicly announced anywhere that Junior would never win a race again. Oops...) 278. Sean posted: 07.18.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He and Brett Bodine are honestly the guys who annoy me the way Michael Waltrip annoys you." I was originally addressing this paragraph to DSFF, then just decided to make it not addressed to anyone but forgot to edit this sentence. 279. JG24FanForever posted: 07.18.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm making a random list Top 10 greatest championship seasons in the modern age: 1. Jeff Gordon-1995(Jeff Gordon beat out Earnhardt at Daytona,Darlington and the Championship in Earnhardt's truly final prime season in only Jeff's 3rd year with Jeff cracking 3400 miles led) 2. Dale Earnhardt-1987(6 straight Short-track wins,an 11 in the first 22 races) 3. Jeff Gordon-1998(13 wins,17 consecutive Top 5's,26 Top 5's total and a Brickyard 400 Triple Crown) 4. Richard Petty-1975(13 wins,12 straight Top 2 finishes,Bristol and Charlotte sweeps) 5. Jeff Gordon-1997(10 wins,Only true season Grand Slam with wins at the Dayton 500 the Coke 600 the Southern 500 and the Cup) 6. Dale Earnhardt-1990(9 wins,3 straight plate race wins,and his third Southern 500 win and led the league in laps led for an all-time record 5th straight year) 7. Cale Yarborough-1977(9 wins,first driver to finish every race in a season,Daytona 500 and lone Driver of the year award) 8. Darrell Waltrip-1981(12 wins,4 straight wins from the pole in the final six events to create the greatest season end comeback in modern cup history) 9. Tony Stewart-2011(did nothing in the first 26 races and then won 5 of the 10 chase events to take the greatest dark horse championship ever.) 10. Jimmie Johnson-2010(his most complete season with Short-track,Road-race and other Superspeedway wins,finished the season with 9 straight Top 9 finishes to take a 5th straight Chase title and led the league in laps led for the third straight year. 280. Mr X posted: 07.18.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again I said this at Martinsville, mostly because I was somewhat butthurt over the finish, and still am slightly, but I still think it would be a good idea going forward, in not allowing teams to change tires under the GWC. To me a GWC is already a gimmicky procedure, certainly one I could do without, and I could absolutely do without 3 attempts at it, but NASCAR is most likely going to be keeping it anyway. In my mind it should be just an extension of the race to give the fans a green flag finish, not a joker card where we pull a random winner completely of the hat, mostly just because the leaders were completely boxed into a strategy of not pitting, as there was as little as 2 green laps left, and depending on what track they're at as little as 1.052 miles left. (Yes I am aware that Denny Hamlin won the 2010 spring race at Martinsville after pitting at the first of two GWC's, however there were two GWC's which isn't always a guarentee and the seas basically parted for Denny in a way that wouldn't happen again if you ran that finish 1000 times over.) My second argument regarding this is competition cautions, when NASCAR announces that a race will feature an early competition caution for lack of practice, overnight rain, etc. there is a rule that no teams are allowed to fuel the car until said caution, so no team gaines a strategic advantage during said caution. Why should teams be allowed to take that much advantage of a gimmick? I just don't see why. 281. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good points Sean. It all comes down to the fact that NASCAR can run a race however they see fit and make up the rules as they go (Rockingham '95 is an excellent example). So after all these years of having to put up with this, the least they could have done is use this "make it up as we go" style to the fans advantage for once at Dover, throw us a bone, and wait until everyone had made their last stop to throw their bogus caution. But they totally screwed us. I really need to quit thinking about that Dover race. If I think about it much more, I will probably shit in a box and mail it to Brian France. Just in case I haven't mentioned it yet, to NASCAR, thanks assholes. 282. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24Fan, how do you not have Gordon's '98 season at least tied for first? He won 13 times and was the only Chevrolet driver to do crap. The Fords were so good that year Jeremy Freaking Mayfield led the points for a while. Even Roush stiffs like Chad Little and Ted Musgrave came close to winning a few times. 283. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFan,you're 100% right I actually thought about that for a second after I completed the list Revised: I'm making a random list Top 10 greatest championship seasons in the modern age: Tie-1. Jeff Gordon-1995(Jeff Gordon beat out Earnhardt at Daytona,Darlington and the Championship in Earnhardt's truly final prime season in only Jeff's 3rd year with Jeff cracking 3400 miles led) Tie-1. Jeff Gordon-1998(13 wins,17 consecutive Top 5's,26 Top 5's total and a Brickyard 400 Triple Crown) 3. Dale Earnhardt-1987(6 straight Short-track wins,an 11 in the first 22 races) 4. Richard Petty-1975(13 wins,12 straight Top 2 finishes,Bristol and Charlotte sweeps) 5. Jeff Gordon-1997(10 wins,Only true season Grand Slam with wins at the Dayton 500 the Coke 600 the Southern 500 and the Cup) 6. Dale Earnhardt-1990(9 wins,3 straight plate race wins,and his third Southern 500 win and led the league in laps led for an all-time record 5th straight year) 7. Cale Yarborough-1977(9 wins,first driver to finish every race in a season,Daytona 500 and lone Driver of the year award) 8. Darrell Waltrip-1981(12 wins,4 straight wins from the pole in the final six events to create the greatest season end comeback in modern cup history) 9. Tony Stewart-2011(did nothing in the first 26 races and then won 5 of the 10 chase events to take the greatest dark horse championship ever.) 10. Jimmie Johnson-2010(his most complete season with Short-track,Road-race and other Superspeedway wins,finished the season with 9 straight Top 9 finishes to take a 5th straight Chase title and led the league in laps led for the third straight year. Dsff,you feel like doing a Top 10 worst championship seasons? 284. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr. X "Again I said this at Martinsville, mostly because I was somewhat butthurt over the finish, and still am slightly, but I still think it would be a good idea going forward, in not allowing teams to change tires under the GWC." Go to the Martinsville race comments and you'll see I got crucified for suggesting this very thing,and if you care to know:back in 1980 the drivers were not allowed to pit for tires on the Short-tracks,so,it's not such a dim witted idea. 285. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^^ They couldn't pit for tires under yellow in 1980 is the correction. 286. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is for cjs3872,why hasn't anyone mentioned that Gordon broke his tie with Cale Yarborough for Labor day event wins last year at Atlanta with his 6th overall? i'm sure you know that one of the original major Labor day events(held long before Nascar was established)was held at the Lakewood speedway in Atlanta. Don't you find it fitting that Gordon would break the record for Labor Day event wins in Atlanta then? and for the record: other Labor day event winners since 2004 2004-California-Elliott Sadler 2005-California-Kyle Busch 2006-California-Kasey Kahne 2007-California-Jimmie Johnson 2008-California-Jimmie Johnson 2009-Atlanta-Kasey Kahne 2010-Atlanta-Tony Stewart(said"i've never been more happy to win race in my career") I think the Atlanta labor day event should be counted as a Crown Jewel event. and cjs3872,to back up your argument that the Mother's day Southern 500 since 2005 is a legitimate continuation of The annual Southern 500,i'm a local,so I go to Darlington every year and visit the Joe Weatherly NMPA Hall of Fame that sits behind the backstretch grand stand, and in the museum they have a model car set from each annual winner in a glass case on the wall in the second room, and every winner since 2005 is in there and that gives Gordon 6 total model cars sitting in the case. Funny right? 287. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another random list Top 12 winnigest Short Track drivers in Modern Cup 1. Darrell Waltrip-47(15 straight winning seasons!) 2. Cale Yarborough-29(win% of .353 and a record 8 straight wins) 3. Dale Earnhardt-27(six straight wins in 1987) 4. Rusty Wallace-25(9 wins between 1993-94) 5. Richard Petty-23(85 wins pre-1972) 6. Jeff Gordon-15(only one with more than 10 since 1995 with 15,and was the last driver to win at 4 different Short Tracks in a season back in 1996) 7. Bobby Allison-12(led 432 laps in 1972 at Martinsville before being booted by The King for the win, and he never got one there.) 8. Jimmie Johnson-10 9. Terry Labonte-9(should be 10) 10.Kyle Busch-9(4 straight at Richmond's early event) 288. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 11. Geoff Bodine-8 12. Mark Martin-7 12. Kurt Busch-7 12. Benny Parsons-7 12. Tony Stewart-7 289. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872,and something I totally forgot that's of massive significance is Lioyd Sea's final win was on September 1st 1941 at The Labor Day Lakewood event giving him 3 major stock car wins in 15 days along with the Daytona Beach Course race(in that race which he started 19th, and led all 50 laps of the event, +18 positions in one lap),and you know he was gone the day after his final win. 290. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Milestone of the race: Jeff Gordon became the first driver to lead in 12 races in a season for 20 consecutive years. Top 8 1. Jeff Gordon-20-1993 to 2012 2. Richard Petty-18-1966 to 1983 3. Mark Martin-14-1989 to 2002 4. Darrell Waltrip-13-1977 to 1989 4. Dale Earnhardt-13-1979 to 1991 4. Tony Stewart-13-1999 to 2011 7. Cale Yarborough-12-1973 to 1984 8. Bobby Allison-10-1967 to 1976 291. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most races leading the points standing all-time Top 12 1. Richard Petty 224 2. Dale Earnhardt 206(Dsff has to like this #) 3. Lee Petty 134(led after 92 of 95 between 1958-59) 4. Jeff Gordon 127 5. David Pearson 111(high number since he only had 4 full seasons) 6. Jimmie Johnson 84 7. Joe Weatherly 81(amazing,and in his final race he was the point leader.) 8. Ned Jarrett 75 9. Buck Baker 74 9. Cale Yarborough 74 11. Bobby Allison 68(highest total for a single champion) 12. Darrell Waltrip 65 292. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 9:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most races leading the points standing all-time(without the Cup) Top 12 1. James Hylton 49 2. Marvin Panch 40 3. Sterling Marlin 31 4. Kyle Busch 28(more than even Martin) 5. Mark Martin 27 6. Kevin Harvick 25 7. Carl Edwards 23 8. Davey Allison 17 9. Jeff Burton 14 10.Dick Hutcherson 13 10.Ernie Irvan 13 12.Greg Biffle 12 293. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) McCollum's and Kingston's amendment to ban military sponsorships in sports has failed. 294. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the Indianapolis race will be called...Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400. 295. JG24FanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And the Indianapolis race will be called...Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400." yeah,they should rename the Daytona 500 the "Brian France Brain trust" 500 too. 296. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, the official name is the "Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at the Brickyard powered by BigMachineRecords.com" Good lord... 297. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoever's bright idea it was to rape the Brickyard like this should be dragged out into the street and shot. What a farce. It's the Brickyard 400! *bang* No sponsors, please! No sponsors! It was despicable enough to have the Daytona 500 by STP, but this! NOOOOOOOOOO! I feel better now. 298. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know what is a bigger farce, the name of the Cup race or what the attendance will be for the Grand Am race on Friday. 299. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In five years... Crown Royal "It's Not About Quantity, It's About Quality" presents the (Your Hero's Name Here) 400-Mile Race broadcast and brought to you live by the Entertainment Sports Programming Network. Telecast powered by Coca-Cola "Open Happiness", the Official Soda of the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. 300. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In another two years... Crown Royal "It's Not About Quantity, It's About Quality" presents the (Your Hero's Name Here) 400-Mile Race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, broadcast and brought to you live by the Entertainment and Sports Programming Network, the Worldwide Leader in Sports. Telecast powered by Coca-Cola "Open Happiness", the Official Soda of the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. 301. cjs3872 posted: 07.19.2012 - 11:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, my point about incorporating the records for the races since 2005 at Darlington to the Southern 500 record books only came about when the Southern 500 name returned to the race in 2009. But to most of the drivers, it has always been the Southern 500. Sure it's on another date, and from 2005-'08 had a different official name, but to the competitors, it was always the same Southern 500, 500 miles on the most exactling and demanding track on the circuit. Does anyone else also find it ironic that Jeff Gordon has won the only running of that race since 2005 to be forced to daytime due to weather? Since the race was moved to Mother's Day Weekend in 2005, the race was postponed to Mother's Day afternoon just once, and Gordon was the one that won it. But your point about the Weatherly museum and the model car set, and them issuing one for every winner since the race was moved to Mother's Day proves that even the Darlington Raceway considers the Mother's Day race to be a continuation of the Southern 500, a fact that only validates our point about the continuation of the Southern 500, as next year's race will be the 64th edition of the classic crown jewel event. 302. Baker posted: 07.19.2012 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wish Blaney could have found a better team than Penske. Good enough for Nationwide I guess. 303. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think in doing a worst championship season list, we would have to split up the pre cha$e titles and current titles. Cause Kurt Busch in '04 would be #1. But then again, most teams (most notably the 48) prepare their entire seasons with being in peak form for the final 10 in mind. So as for pre playoffs era, I think Tony in '02 would have to be tops. He scored 4800 points in 36 races. To put that in context, that would only be good enough for 3rd in '98 (33 races), 4th in '99 (34 races), 4th in '00 (34 races), oddly enough 2nd in '01 the first year of the 36 race schedule, and 4th in '03. But then, from '04 to present, you have KuBu with a grand total of 10 Top 5 finishes while JJ doubled him up with 20, Gordon and June had 16 apiece, even rookie Kasey Kahne had 13. But then Tony topped him in '11 with just 9 Top 5s all year. But he also won 5 of the last 10 races. So do we credit him for turning it up when it truly counted, or groan cause his overall 36 races were kinda lame, finishing in the Top 10 barely half the time? Oh well, worst title seasons '72-'03: 1) Stewart 2002 2) Labonte 1984 3) Kenseth 2003 4) Labonte 1996 5) Earnhardt 1991 (Note, I didn't include BP in '73 or Kulwicki in '92 cause they were driving for underfunded teams and their championships were triumps of the human spirit) Worst Brian France era titles: 1) Kurt 2004 2) Stewart 2011 3) Johnson 2006 4) Johnson 2010 5) Johnson 2008 304. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Weakest Championship Seasons by Average Points Per Race (APPR) Pre-Chase Era 1. Tony Stewart, 2002, 133.33 APPR 2. Matt Kenseth, 2003, 139.50 3. Alan Kulwicki, 1992, 140.62 4. Jeff Gordon, 2001, 142.00 5. Rusty Wallace, 1989, 144.00 6. Jeff Gordon, 1997, 147.19 7. Dale Earnhardt, 1991, 147.83 8. Jeff Gordon, 1995, 148.84 9. Darrell Waltrip, 1982, 149.63 10. Terry Labonte, 1996, 150.23 305. ch posted: 07.19.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @302 its for Ryan Blaney who has been driving for TBR's new nationwide team. Penske is a step up from them and if Ryan can finish top 10 in TBR, I can't wait to see what he can do in Penske equipment! 306. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chase Era NOTE: I adjusted the point totals as if the original Latford system had been used. I also have calculated Tony Stewart's championship season last year with the Latford system. 1. Kurt Busch, 2004, 132.36 (Tony Stewart's 2011 title would be here, at 134.78) 2. Jimmie Johnson, 2010, 136.92 3. Jimmie Johnson, 2007, 138.94 4. Jimmie Johnson, 2009, 141.27 5. Jimmie Johnson, 2006, 141.89 6. Tony Stewart, 2005, 143.03 7. Jimmie Johnson, 2008, 143.06 307. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.19.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And if you use the non-Chase points I bet Jeff's APPR in 2007 is around 150. Just guessing. Jimmie's are definitely the weakest of any driver with 4 or more titles, but Tony's are the weakest of any with 3 or more... 308. Spen posted: 07.19.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lee Petty actually led the standings for about 25 weeks longer than he's given credit for. For whatever reason, race-database doesn't count the 1954 point leaders. Buck Baker also gets screwed a bit for that year. 309. cjs3872 posted: 07.19.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, another reason you can't compare Benny Parsons' 1973 championship with the other "weak" championship seasons is that they used a radically different point system in 1973 than either the Latford system, which began in 1975, or today's horrible point system, which replaced the Latford system. As a result, it's extremely difficult to compare Parsons' 1973 championship season to the other champions that didn't exactly set he world on fire during their championship campaigns. Of course, the level of competition in 1973 was extremely low. So low, in fact that David Pearson won more than one race that year by simply finishing. He won one race at Darlington by 13 laps over Parsons, who was nursing a wrecked car to the finish, and third place Bobby Allison, didn't finish at all (Richard Childress finished fourth in that race, which saw only 12 cars make it to the finish in a field of 40). Pearson also won the Winston 500 that year, a race that had that infamous 20-car crash on the ninth lap that wiped out all of his competition, and set the tone for a rain and disaster-marred month across American Motorsports, which carried through the tragedy-marred Indianapolis 500, and not even the World 600 was spared from rain and bad accidents, as that race saw a rain delay and two bad crashes (Peter Gregg and Vic Parsons). Cale Yarborough led all 500 laps in one race at Bristol that year, and Parsons won by seven laps in the other race at Bristol, despite not being in the car for a good chunk of that race, as he was relieved by John Utsman. And let's not forget that the record for the largest margin of victory in Daytona 500 history was also set in 1973, so 1973 was not a very good year for competitve races. Anothe factor in Parsons' championship is the fact that half the 28 races that year were won by drivers that didn't run the full circuit (Pearson won 11 of those, and others who didn't run the full circuit that won included Mark Donohue, Dick Brooks, and Buddy Baker) and another two were won by Bobby Allison, who didn't run two races because he was up at Indianapolis that year, driving for Roger Penske, and because of the point system used that year, that meant he had no shot at the championship, because points were awarded based on laps completed, with a 25 point bonus for any win. 310. Spen posted: 07.19.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the sake of completion and comparison, here's the APPR for the drivers who would have won the title under the full-season point system in the chase years (when they differ): Jeff Gordon 2004: 139.36 Matt Kenseth 2006: 142.61 Jeff Gordon 2007: 149.86 (would have been 152+ if not for the 100 point penelty) Kevin Harvick 2010: 145.66 Carl Edwards 2011: 144.97 And just for S&G, Matt Kenseth's current point total would give him 149.47. DSFF: I'm not sure I'd rate Terry's '84 season that badly. Billy Hagan's team was never exactly top dog. Even with Inman in their corner, this was still a team that had won a grand total of two races in eight years. Putting together a championship effort out of that was pretty darned impressive if I do say so myself. 13 consecutive top tens is nothing to sneeze at either. And he played the bonus point game to perfection, leading at least one lap in all but four races. Yeah, he got lucky with DiGard falling apart, RCR and Dale just starting out together, and most of all with DW goofing up every other week, but at the end of the day, he put it all together that year when no one else did. At the very least I'd rank it above his '96 title. Yeah, he had more top fives and a slightly higher lead lap total in '96, but he also was driving for Hendrick, and had a teammate winning ten races. '84 was a 'more with less' title, while '96 was a 'less with more' title. By the way, for all the statfinders out there, I'm curious as to what the record for most lead lap bonus points is for a season. 311. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good point about Billy Hagan's team. I should probably flip flop T Lab's title seasons (yeah, I know he had the same amount of Top 5s and 10s in '96, but when your teammate wins 10 races and you just win 2, that counts for something in my book). It is just that '84 ranks alongside '91 and '02 as "Jiminy Freaking Christmas, does anybody want this damn thing?" title races. Here is a rankings list: Most horrific title defenses 1) Stewart '06: Not only did he take himself out of the title hunt, he altered history. I don't care that he won 5 races, that was one of the worst things I have ever seen. Therefore I have it ranked as even worse than..... 2) Earnhardt '92: When you win the Winston Cup in 1990 (9 wins), 1991 (4 wins), 1993 (6 wins, and 1994 (4 wins), you would expect 1992 to be better than a 1 win (fewest since '82, wouldn't do worse until his winless '97), 6 Top 5 (worst EVER up til that point, wouldn't be that bad again until his dogshit '98 season), 15 Top 10 (worst since '82, only season worse was his aforementioned '98 season) season with only 483 laps led. His previous 7 seasons? 1237, 2127, 3358, 1808, 2735, 2438, and 1125. His next 3? 1475, 1014, 1583. So what the hell happened? 3) T Labonte '85: 1 win, 8 Top 5s. Ugh. 4) T Labonte '97: 1 win, 8 Top 5s. This is not an accidental repeat. 5) B Labonte '01: 6th in points a year after completing all but 9 laps. Why couldn't he have done this in 2000? Damn it all. 312. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't count any pre modern era stuff. Many teams would win a title then only run a partial season the next year like Pearson ('67, '70), Isaac ('71), and of course Petty in '65 due to the Chrysler boycott. 313. Jeff Gordon posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as modern era goes, Bobby Allison led all but 1 of 31 races in 1972 and led the most laps in 14 races. That would've scored him 220 bonus points, and considering Allison's 4,343 laps led that season (more than twice than #43 Richard Petty who won the championship. Now that's a hell of a coincidence!) are the modern era record I don't think anyone tops that. Although Jeff Gordon scored 200 lap led bonus points in 1995; he led 29 of 31 races and led the most lap 11 times. 314. Talon64 posted: 07.19.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) okay Jeff Gordon's me, don't know why I posted as Jeff Gordon. lol 315. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, either yours or mine are wrong, or both, but I got different figures for 2004 and 2006 (I have 138.67 for '04 and 142.06 for '06). 316. Spen posted: 07.19.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course in Isaac's case he didn't exactly choose to run a partial schedule. Chrysler dropped manufacturer support for every non-Petty team, which ultimately knocked Cotton Owens, Ray Nichols and the like out of business and forced the K&K team to drastically cut back on their schedule. And he still won four times anyway. I'm not sure I'd put Bobby's '01 season on that list. Yeah, it wasn't great, but it wasn't really any uglier than Bill's '89 season, or Matt's '04. Kurt Busch going from champion to "you're fired" in less than a year probably deserves it more. Also of note, the switch that changed Petty from top dog to mere mortal seemed to happen overnight. Thirteen wins down to three is a pretty dramatic fall. 317. Spen posted: 07.19.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: The extra bonus points for wins was only five points from 04-06. It didn't change to ten until 2007. That's probably the discrepancy. 318. cjs3872 posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, they did not count bonus points for leading races until 1975, so what you're saying about Bobby Allison in 1972 is just hypothetical, in terms of the bonus points, using the system that debuted three years later. And I'm sure that Richard Petty in 1975, Cale Yarborough in one of his three championship years, Darrell Waltrip in 1981 or '82, Bill Elliott in 1985, or Dale Earnhardt in either 1987 or '90 may have eclipsed Jeff Gordon's 200 bonus points in 1995, but Gordon's 200 in 1995 is the most since I started keeping track of it in 1993. And Spen, what you say about Petty's fall from 13 in 1975 to just three in 1976 has an awful lot to do with David Pearson and Cale Yarborough. Remember that Pearson swept the sport's Triple Crown in 1976, winning the Daytona 500, World 600, and Southern 500, and Petty finished second in all three races. Those were among Pearson's 10 wins in 1976, and Cale Yarborough, who had missed a few races in 1975 due to sponsorship problems, won nine times himself that year (including four in a row and five of six from late August through early October). The thing with Pett'y apparent drop was not that he didn't run as well as much as it was that Pearson and Yarborough ran much better in '76. Add to that the fact that Dave Marcis won three times (yes, Dave Marcis) and Benny Parsons also won more than once for the first time in his career, and you get the fact that Petty's competition improved greatly in 1976. And also, you refer to Bill Elliott's 1989 season as ugly. Remember that he broke his wrist in a practice crash prior to qualifying for the Daytona 500 that year as a result of a blown tire (another example of why tire wars are terrible), so how do we know that a healthy Elliott could not have challenged more often? That crash basically cost Elliott half the season that year. He won three times in the last 16 races that season, the same number as championship rivals Rusty Wallace and Dale Earnhardt did. Nobody won more than those three over the last 16 races in 1989. 319. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just to add fuel to the fire of conversation, here are the top 10 strongest championship seasons, per APPR. 1. Cale Yarborough, 1977, 166.67 2. Dale Earnhardt, 1987, 161.93 3. Jeff Gordon, 1998, 161.45 4. Cale Yarborough, 1978, 161.37 5. Richard Petty, 1975, 159.43 6. Darrell Waltrip, 1981, 157.42 7. Richard Petty, 1979, 155.81 8. Bobby Allison, 1983, 155.57 9. Cale Yarborough, 1976, 154.80 T-10. Dale Jarrett, 1999, 154.76 T-10. Bill Elliott, 1988, 154.76 320. David posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I know that... ...and as I remember calculating it, I COUNTED TEN BONUS POINTS PER WIN!! Boy, did I ever screw that up. My bad. I knew better. 321. Sean posted: 07.19.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lee Petty actually led the standings for about 25 weeks longer than he's given credit for. For whatever reason, race-database doesn't count the 1954 point leaders. Buck Baker also gets screwed a bit for that year." Thanks. I fixed it. I enter almost everything manually (the standings data are not automatically connected to the season data) so mistakes like that can happen. I'm surprised nobody else caught that in the past couple years. "By the way, for all the statfinders out there, I'm curious as to what the record for most lead lap bonus points is for a season." Most bonus points in a season. I only counted seasons from 1975 to present, used the bonus points for leading a lap and leading the most laps but not the recent extra bonus points for winning, and I ignored the change to the points system in 2011. 1. Cale Yarborough, 1976 - 210 2. Cale Yarborough, 1977 - 200 2. Cale Yarborough, 1978 - 200 2. Dale Earnhardt, 1987 - 200 2. Jeff Gordon, 1995 - 200 6. Jimmie Johnson, 2008 - 195 7. Darrell Waltrip, 1981 - 190 7. Jimmie Johnson, 2009 - 190 9. Richard Petty, 1975 - 185 9. Cale Yarborough, 1980 - 185 11. Darrell Waltrip, 1980 - 180 11. Jeff Gordon, 2001 - 180 13. Darrell Waltrip, 1982 - 175 14. Darrell Waltrip, 1979 - 170 14. Bobby Allison, 1982 - 170 14. Jeff Gordon, 1996 - 170 14. Jeff Gordon, 1998 - 170 18. Darrell Waltrip, 1978 - 165 18. Bobby Allison, 1983 - 165 18. Dale Earnhardt, 1986 - 165 18. Bobby Labonte, 1999 - 165 18. Kyle Busch, 2011 - 165 (but obviously not since the points system was changed) 23. Rusty Wallace, 1989 - 160 23. Dale Earnhardt, 1990 - 160 23. Jeff Gordon, 1999 - 160 23. Jeff Gordon, 2004 - 160 27. Geoff Bodine, 1986 - 155 27. Mark Martin, 1998 - 155 27. Greg Biffle, 2005 - 155 27. Jimmie Johnson, 2010 - 155 31. Dale Earnhardt, 1993 - 150 31. Tony Stewart, 2005 - 150 31. Jeff Gordon, 2007 - 150 31. Kyle Busch, 2008 - 150 35. Richard Petty, 1977 - 145 35. Bobby Allison, 1979 - 145 35. Bobby Allison, 1981 - 145 35. Darrell Waltrip, 1983 - 145 35. Darrell Waltrip, 1984 - 145 35. Rusty Wallace, 1993 - 145 35. Dale Jarrett, 1997 - 145 42. Benny Parsons, 1977 - 140 42. Dale Earnhardt, 1980 - 140 42. Dale Earnhardt, 1989 - 140 42. Davey Allison, 1991 - 140 42. Dale Earnhardt, 1995 - 140 42. Jeff Gordon, 1997 - 140 42. Dale Earnhardt, Jr., 2003 - 140 42. Jeff Gordon, 2003 - 140 50. Bill Elliott, 1987 - 135 50. Dale Earnhardt, 1988 - 135 50. Ernie Irvan, 1994 - 135 50. Jeff Burton, 2000 - 135 50. Rusty Wallace, 2000 - 135 50. Ryan Newman, 2003 - 135 50. Jimmie Johnson, 2004 - 135 50. Jeff Gordon, 2006 - 135 50. Matt Kenseth, 2006 - 135 50. Jimmie Johnson, 2011 - 135 You can throw out Kyle and Jimmie from last year if you like since they weren't using anything resembling the Latford points system... Now I see why the Gordon fan is arguing for 1995 over 1998. He may have dominated more in '95, but he won more AND was more consistent AND had weaker horsepower relative to the Fords in '98 (considering how much the other Chevies tended to dominate in '95, and how almost all of '98 was a Gordon and Ford only show...) I say it was mainly Evernham always getting Gordon out of the pits first and it being nearly impossible to pass that year due to the 5-and-5 rule were the two main factors in many of those wins. Others may disagree. 322. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good points Spen, it is just I don't hold Kurt's actual championship in high esteem, but I probably should have mentioned it. As for Bill's '89, it wasn't THAT bad. His '86 was. Here is my list of top "oh so close" hangover seasons: 1) Carl 2009: from 9 wins to a goose egg. 2) Bill 1986: from 11 wins to just two (a sweep at Michigan). 3) Denny 2011: Probably the least surprising hangover year. 4) Bobby 1973: Should have never left Junior. 5) Carl 2006: From "the future" to another goose egg. 6) Dale Jr 2005: Began a stretch of mediocrity that hasn't really ended. 7) Cale 1975: 9th? Really? Btw, using the '74 points system, Earnhardt is the '98 champ. 8) Darrell 1980: Five wins, lots of races that were over by lap 30. 9) Carl 2012: There seems to be a trend developing here. T-10) Mark '91, '03, '10: Poor guy. 323. Spen posted: 07.19.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean: Wow, that's your site? I'm impressed. Thanks for the info, too! DSFF: And Michael Waltrip probably would be a two-time champ under the '74 system. Not that it's the only one that gets it wrong sometimes. Under the '51 system, Terry Labonte would probably have won the title in 2003. 324. Eric posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, You shouldn't call 2012 a year of mediocrity for Dale Jr. based of his season so far. Dale Jr.'s season right now would be called a great season despite only having 1 win. Dale Jr. hasn't finish worst than 23rd and has 14 top 10's in 19 races. He also has been finishing on the lead lap all year. The best way to compare Dale's season so far is Bobby Labonte's 2000 season except with less wins. 325. Eric posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Dale Jr. had a stretch of mediocrity, but this year so appears to be his best season since 2004. Dale is on his way of getting a career high in top 5's and top 10's. Dale is only 7 top 10's away from tying his career high set in 2003 and 2004. Dale also is 8 top 5's away from tying his career high of 16 top 5's set in 2004. It is true that Dale only has 218 laps led this season so far, but that is his only issue right now. 326. Eric posted: 07.19.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention that I not a fan of Dale Jr, but I look at stats. His stats this year are great in consistency. I am a Matt Kenseth fan matter of fact. 327. Sean posted: 07.19.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wow, that's your site? I'm impressed. Thanks for the info, too!" Yes. How do you think I compile all those (sometimes obscure) stats so quickly? Having said that, the points leader statistics before 1975 (even though I attempted to do it) are rather shaky. I used the great Greg Fielden books which frequently but not always announced points leader changes so I had to try and figure it out despite a few things that are unclear about each of the past points structures... I believe what I have for 1949-1974 is pretty close, but I'm sure it's not perfect because a lot of the earlier points system structures are barely even published anywhere...and of course it would be hard to identify post-entries, which drivers weren't eligible for points at times (i.e. the season-opening Riverside races which were frequently won by USAC drivers), etc... I tried to calculate the '73 and '74 points standings myself and got different counts (in '74, I know it's because it was based on BASE winnings without bonuses, and we might not even have that data now, since the money data we have for that season and all others includes bonuses...) So I'm not sure a PERFECT list of past points leaders can be determined, but I do think I'm pretty close... 328. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.19.2012 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just speaking in general for Dale Jr. Yes this season has been really good, but he won 6 races in '04 bringing his career total at the time to 15 in 5 seasons. He has won 4 races since (7 and 1/2 seasons). Also, since '04, he finished 5th in points in '06 but had only one other Top 10 finish in points (7th last year) and one other Top 12 (12th in '08). He may finally break the spell this year, but so far, you would have to say that is the hangover that keeps on hanging. 329. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.20.2012 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a positive note, I would like to point out those who suffered soul crushing championship defeats, but didn't give in, dug deeper, and won it all the next year. In no particular order, maybe I will rank them eventually, but here are the ones that immediately come to mind: Bobby Allison 1983: After TWO horrific late season fades and furious rallies by Darrell in '81 and '82 that left him the bridesmaid, he went back at it and pulled it off to finally get the championship monkey off his back. Darrell Waltrip 1985: In '83 he tied for the most wins and narrowly lost to Bobby. In '84 he had far and away the most wins but didn't even come close to the title. That had to be frustrating, but he grinded it out in '85 and beat the seemingly invincible Elliott. Rusty Wallace 1989: After a furious late season rally fell just a bit short in '88, he rallied again and delivered to Earnhardt his only defeat in a season he had a realistic shot at the Winston Cup. Dale Earnhardt 1990: After a brutal stretch of bad luck took the 1989 Winston Cup from him, he put on a clinic at the end of the season to beat the seemingly immune to bad luck Mark Martin (shades of Stewart and Edwards in the '11 cha$e). Jeff Gordon 1997: After his second consecutive horrific late season fade in '96, this one was too much to overcome unlike '95, he won 10 races again and this time put himself far out enough in front that his third consecutive horrific late season fade still wasn't enough for the competition. Jimmie Johnson 2006: Much like Bobby, had two consecutive heart breaks heading into '06. But that season Tony Stewart made the decision to self destruct and the rest is history. 330. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.20.2012 - 5:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What website? 331. LordLowe posted: 07.20.2012 - 8:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone here think that Bobby Labonte is the M. Night Shyamalan of NASCAR. 332. LordLowe posted: 07.20.2012 - 8:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am going to do a list of seasons where a certain driver should have won the championship but didn't (AKA New England Patriots 2007 Syndrome) 1972: Bobby Allison 1979: Darrell Waltrip 1984: Darrell Waltrip 1985: Bill Elliott 1989: Dale Earnhardt 1991: Nobody 1992: Davey Allison 1993 & 1994: Rusty Wallace 1996: Jeff Gordon 1997: Dale Jarrett 2002: Nobody 2003: Nobody 2004: Jimmie Johnson 2007: Jeff Gordon 2008: Carl Edwards 2010: Denny Hamlin 333. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.20.2012 - 9:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So far it's looking like we might have to add Carl's 2012 season to that "hangover" list as well. 334. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.20.2012 - 9:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL never mind, I see DSFF did include this year for Carl. 335. David posted: 07.20.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I find it interesting that in Dale Earnhardt's two winless seasons (1981 and 1997) his season-ending standings were seventh and fifth, while in two of four seasons in which he won a single race (1982 and 1992) he couldn't run competitively all year, finishing twelfth both years. 336. David posted: 07.20.2012 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On second thought, scratch that last comment. 337. 10andJoe posted: 07.20.2012 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This just in: J.J. Yeley is moving to Max Q Motorsports, which has arranged for technical support from Tommy Baldwin Racing. 338. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.20.2012 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1991: Nobody Quoted for the truth. 339. David posted: 07.20.2012 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I am not incorrect, MQM runs Fords. 340. 10andJoe posted: 07.20.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Apparently they'll be running Chevys now, since the implication was TBR will be providing them with cars. 341. JRacingFast posted: 07.20.2012 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So now the Yeley is moving......who do you guys think will drive the #49 car? 342. ch posted: 07.20.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see this as a deal similar to the Hendrick / Stewart Haas deal and the Roush / Wood Brothers deal. 343. ch posted: 07.20.2012 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @341, If I were Jay Robinson, I'd be going after Reed Sorenson or Josh Wise. FRM would let Josh leave the S&P car just like they let Landon Cassill go after he found a better ride. 344. JRacingFast posted: 07.20.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #343 But Landon Cassill didnt drive for FRM last year he drove for TRG and for Germain racing.....i agree with josh wise and sorenson maybe theyll bring up some young guy from the nationwide series but for some reason i could see them putting a vet in the car at indy to try and get them into the show 345. startandparkfan posted: 07.20.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #79 Kelly Bires BBI/Bestway 346. ch posted: 07.20.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Landon was set to drive the #26 this year, but FRM let him go since he found a full time ride. And he drove for Phoenix Racing last year, not TRG. 347. Spen posted: 07.20.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan: We're talking about http://www.race-database.com/ A seriously cool site if I do say so myself. Sean: "How do you think I compile all those (sometimes obscure) stats so quickly?" I thought that, like me, you've got a bunch of spreadsheets of various stats lying around on your computer. For instance, I've been working off and on at 'Latfodizing' '49-'74, (and 2011-present) marking down which manufacturers had the most starts on a year-by-year basis, wins by state of origin, career DNF percentage, stated reasons for DNF's, average age of all drivers vs. race winners, percentage of career laps completed, number of car numbers used in a driver's career, a list of 'odd' car numbers used over the years, along with a couple of other odds and ends. So I thought you were just crazy like me, just with more useful stats. 348. ch posted: 07.20.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agree on the veteran idea though. Just don't know who. 349. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.20.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I find it interesting that in Dale Earnhardt's two winless seasons (1981 and 1997) his season-ending standings were seventh and fifth, while in two of four seasons in which he won a single race (1982 and 1992) he couldn't run competitively all year, finishing twelfth both years." I find it interesting that all those years he came close to winning the Daytona 500 (1986, 1990, 1993, 1995 and 1996), he more than made up for it during the rest of the season, staying competitive and contending for the championship (except 1996 where the Dega injury caused him to fade to 4th, and he was 330 points behind at season's end after contending for the point lead the whole first half of the year) yet in the year he finally did win the 500 (1998), he had a mediocre season. It's like he traded a good season for a 500 win that year lol. 350. David posted: 07.20.2012 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is funny. I never noticed that before. 351. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.21.2012 - 6:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow! Something happened. This page went from about 370 to 350 comments overnight. 352. JRacingFast posted: 07.21.2012 - 8:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @346- look at the stats the 1st few races of last year he drove for germain 353. JRacingFast posted: 07.21.2012 - 8:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @346 from 2010* 354. David posted: 07.21.2012 - 10:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to SI.com's Fortunate 50, Dale Earnhardt Jr. is the eighth-highest earning athlete at $28,164,690 (24 million of that is endorsements). Jeff Gordon is eighteenth with $23,912,830. Tony Stewart earns $22 million, which ties him for 29th, and Jimmie Johnson ranks 33rd at $21M. Figures come from the 2011 calendar year. 355. David posted: 07.21.2012 - 10:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Race Database is BEAST!!!! 356. ch posted: 07.21.2012 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, Germain at first then Phoenix after Bill E. was fired. 357. David posted: 07.21.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What happened to this conversation? 358. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a random list about the worst fades in the careers of the 5 greatest drivers in Cup History(only my opinion) 1. Richard Petty: 4 straight Top 5 less seasons(1989-92) pathetic. 2. Jeff Gordon: 21 consecutive races outside the Top 5(2005) 3. Dale Earnhardt: 16 D.N.F's in 17 races(1982-83) 4. Bobby Allison: 2 straight winless "pissing in the wind" seasons(1976-77) 5. Jimmie Johnson : 6th place points finish in 2011(hahaha!) Cale Yarborough and David Pearson both finished 10th in thier final Cup races and neither driver(like Johnson)never had a real awful spell in thier careers. 359. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.22.2012 - 5:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson has always been Hendrick's pet, so he never has had to work with a turd of a car. 360. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 6:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 10 winningest Labor Day 500 mile Cup event winner's 1950-2011 1. Jeff Gordon 6 2. Cale Yarborough 5 3. Bobby Allison 4 4. Herb Thomas 3 4. Buck Baker 3 4. David Pearson 3 4. Dale Earnhardt 3 4. Bill Elliott 3 9. Fireball Roberts 2 9. Buddy Baker 2 9. Terry Labonte 2 9. Jimmie Johnson 2 9. Kasey Kahne 2 is last year's Atlanta race the greatest Labor Day event ever run? 361. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 6:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ the fact that Gordon became the first 6 time winner of Stock car racing's annual Labor Day event which has always been a Crown Jewel, even before Nascar was formed, and even more noteworthy is that Gordon took his win on the 70th anniversary of Lioyd Sea's final Stock Car win, which was Sea's 3rd win in 15 days and the final pre-war Labor Day event and it was also held in Atlanta at the very interesting Lakewood speedway which was laid out around a lake. 362. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 6:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ Forgive me for ommiting Harry Gant and Mark Martin as multiple Southern 500 winners. 363. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 6:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ and forgive me again for forgetting that Mark Martin has 1 labor day win. 364. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 6:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just one more for cjs3872 do you like the paradox of Gordon having 6 Southern 500 wins but the sixth didn't come on Labor Day and having 6 Labor Day wins but the sixth didn't come at Darlington? 365. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 7:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 10 winningest drivers in the annual Labor Day weekend Cup event: 1. Jeff Gordon 6 2. Cale Yarborough 5 3. Bobby Allison 4 4. Herb Tmomas 3 4. Buck Baker 3 4. David Pearson 3 4. Dale Earnhardt 3 4. Bill Elliott 3 9. Fireball Roberts 2 9. Buddy Baker 2 9. Terry Labonte 2 9. Jimmie Johnson 2 9. Kasey Kahne 2 I made this list because YouTube finally got the full race coverage of the 2002 Southern 500(my first Cup race)and this race is almost the very reason i'm a diehard Gordon fan,I also wanted to say that Gordon's 5th win was raced in very similar conditions to his 6th win last year at Atlanta. I can remember getting to the race track late and worrying that I was going to miss the start,but the rain kept em at bay and I got to see my first race Cup race start under caution. please watch this a find the "Rusty Wallace can't win at Darlington" reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-BpmCY-Hks 366. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 7:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) here's another paradox for you cjs3872 Jimmie Johnson has 2 Southern 500 wins neither on Labor Day and he has 2 Labor Day 500 mile wins neither at Darlington. 367. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 8:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm gonna play a little myth busting and the Myth being busted is that Jeff Gordon had an epic fade at the end of 1996. in the last twelve races he finished in the Top 5 ten times with 4 wins, 3 conscutive, and the only race you can acuse him of having a bad day was his 31st at Charlotte. The 12th at Rockingham was due to handling problems early in the race trapping him a lap down that he couldn't get back, otherwise he would have had a better finish by races end. last 12 races finishes #20-4th #21-5th #22-1st #23-2nd #24-1st #25-1st #26-1st #27-31st #28-12th #29-5th #30-3rd he lost 61 points to Labonte at the first race of the year in an accident that wasn't his fault and he lost the title by 37 points thus losing the title at the first race of the year through no fault of his own. This season only proves the flaws of the Latford system better than any other season, and I don't see any fade in the last twelve races, just a solitary bad finish surrounded by domination. 368. JG24FanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 8:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ Correction: #20-4th #21-5th #22-2nd #23-1st #24-2nd #25-1st #26-1st #27-1st #28-31st #29-12th #30-5th #31-3rd The makes 6 straight Top 2's. 369. David posted: 07.22.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By comparison, Darrell Waltrip's last twelve 1979 races (ironically also in a 31 race season): #20 @ Talladega: 1st #21 @ Michigan: 19th #22 @ Bristol: 1st #23 @ Darlington: 11th #24 @ Richmond: 2nd #25 @ Dover: 9th #26 @ Martinsville: 11th #27 @ Charlotte: 3rd #28 @ North Wilkesboro: 13th #29 @ Rockingham: 6th #30 @ Atlanta: 5th #31 @ Ontario: 8th 370. David posted: 07.22.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or Bill Elliott's last twelve of 1985: 17 @ Talladega: 4th 18 @ Michigan: 1st 19 @ Bristol: 5th 20 @ Darlington: 1st 21 @ Richmond: 12th 22 @ Dover: 20th 23 @ Martinsville: 17th 24 @ North Wilkesboro: 30th 25 @ Charlotte: 2nd 26 @ Rockingham: 4th 27 @ Atlanta: 1st 28 @ Riverside: 31st 371. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, but when you have a 100+ point lead with just 4 races left, you gotta close, especially when you already have 10 wins. The last 4 races have always been Wonderboy's kryptonite (MAJOR exception '98). Of course his most horrific late season fade was '95, with '97 a close second. 372. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are way less people at Chicago than show up at IRP. And half of the few people that are there are Brandt employees. I don't know if I have mentioned this or not, but I really dislike Brian France. 373. cjs3872 posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But DSFF, that 111-point lead with four races to go turned into just a one point lead with three races left when Gordon lost an engine and Terry Labonte won the race, so I would hardly call that a collapse. Now what happened to Gordon in 1995, '97, and even 2007, certainly qualify as collapses. And it's somehow fitting that collapses where championships are concerned are mentioned today, considering what happened at the British Open earlier today, a fact that again proves my point about certain performers can handle the pressure of the big moment, and others simply can not. How else can you explain a guy who had been flawless all week suddenly coming apart with a four-shot lead with four holes to play, and bogeyed all four to lose by a shot (this same guy had the Players Championship all wrapped up years ago and hit his second into the lake on the final hole, but still had enough margin to win by 1). A racing comparison would be a driver with a 250-point lead with four races left under the old Latford system sufering four DNFs in a row and losing the title, or a guy with a 60-80 point lead under today's point syste with four races left and doing the same, four DNFs in a row. 374. David posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, I believe you have mentioned that on occasion. 375. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did the Foretravel Motorcoach girl outqualify the GoDaddy girl? 376. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't call it a collapse either, I would call it a horrific fade. 377. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now for our weekly update and extended pit report on the 16th place driver. 378. cjs3872 posted: 07.22.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The size of the crowds this weekend doesn't bode well for Indy next week at Indy, does it, DSFF? If I had to venture a guess, I'd say this weekend drew about 30-35 thousand people for all three event combined, tops. If that's an indication, than a crowd of 100,000 for the Brickyard 400 next weekend may even be stretching it. And it looks like, for the second weekend in a row, 11-13 cars S&P'd in the Nationwide race. Remember that 14 cars represent fully one third of the starting field. At least things should get a little better on that front at Indy next weekend, since there figures to be a heavier Cup participation than usual at Indy next weekend. 379. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.22.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ahhhhhhh! The 2 car just passed the 3 car. Oh wait, this isn't a Winston Cup race from '93. Just had a chilling flashback. 380. 10andJoe posted: 07.23.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Indy entry list is out. 47 cars: -Bayne in the 21 -Hornish in the 22 pending AJ's B-test this week -Schrader in the 32 -#49 is listed as TBA. #37 isn't listed. -Martin back in the 55 -Skinner in the 79 -Reed Sorenson in the 91, a second Tri-Star/Humphrey Smith car -Scott Speed in the 95 381. ch posted: 07.24.2012 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two things are bugging me right now. 1) Rumors of quals going back to 'normal' with the top 38 in on speed, 4 provisionals, and PC provisional (5 provisionals with no PC). Hmmmmm.... 2) This from FOX Sports: "In the last two weeks, NASCAR confiscated the No. 49's engines after the race for teardown at the technical center. Sending a message?" Nascar has been confiscating the #49 team's engines for "teardown" to "send a message," why them!!!!!!!! Why the 49 when they have been the ONLY team (other than the 30/98 in the early part of the season) outside of the top 35 to try to run full races. If you feel like you have to do 'something' (cough*) then do it to the teams with no intention to race, ie. 19/23/74/79/87/98. Really!?!?! 382. loomer posted: 07.24.2012 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You could also add Kyle Busch to the list of hangover seasons. 2008: 8 wins, dominates regular season (Contender) 2009: Self destructs, misses chase, Addington fired (Hangover) 2010: Improves with Rogers 2011: Is a contender until the chase starts, like usual, nearly destroys his career at Texas(Contender) 2012: A ton of bad luck, confidence wanes (Hangover) 383. David posted: 07.24.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR may finally make their first smart decision in years and remove the Top-35 rule. It's almost too good to be true. 384. David posted: 07.24.2012 - 10:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martinsville president Clay Campbell was involved in a plane crash. Nobody was hurt. 385. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.24.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Loomer, KyBu and Carl seem to be in sync on three year cycles since '08 (although Carl's started in '05). There is the "looking hard to beat" year that ends with Carl being the bridesmaid and Kyle epically self destructing, the year after bottoming out, the rebuild, then it starts over. '05: Carl wins 4 races as an unofficial rookie, and winds up as Smoke's bridesmaid (I know technically Biff finished 2nd on the tiebreaker, but Carl had more wins in the last 10, so he should have been 2nd) '06: No wins for The Cuz and no playoffs. '07: Nice rebuilding year for Carl with 3 wins, ending a long winless streak. At the end of the year, Kyle joins JGR after Hendrick cans his ass following Epic Texas Meltdown I: The Disappearance. '08: Looks like it will be Carl vs Kyle for the championship as Kyle enters the playoffs with 8 wins and Carl with 6. JJ comes to life and beats everyone while Kyle epically self destructs, throwing in the towel after 3 straight mechanical issues. Carl wins 3 more races but can't hang with the 48 in the last 10 as he gets bridesmaid dress #2. '09: Kyle misses the playoffs altogether, losing a battle for 12th to Brian Vickers (ouch). Carl goes winless and can't get a Top 10 points finish. '10: Carl finally ends yet another long winless streak by winning the last two races of the year and gets a Top 5 points finish while Kyle easily makes the playoffs, and seems poised for a Top 5 himself until Epic Texas Meltdown II: The Double Bird. '11: Carl shows more week in and week out consistency than anyone, while Kyle shows more week in and week out speed than anyone (4 wins most laps led) in the first 26. Then the playoffs strted and Tony Stewart caught on fire. Literally. He ties Carl in points, winning by obliterating him in the tiebreaker giving Carl bridesmaid dress #3. Kyle once again isn't as strong in the playoffs before guaranteeing himself a last place finish with Epic Texas Meltdown III: The Near Career Suicide. '12: One of them will miss the playoffs, possibly both. Unless Carl gets 2 wins and Kyle grabs another, one will miss it. Combined win total for both: 1. Kyle will probably get in unless Joey does his Pocono thing again or Jeff Gordon electroshocks The Roadrunner Alan and turns back the clock again. Don't count that out. 386. cjs3872 posted: 07.24.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, who's to say that Carl and Kyle won't both miss the Chase this year? Kasey Kahne looks like a great bet to get in, and there are several divers that could get that second Wild Card spot other than Edwards or Busch, including Joey Logano and Ryan Newman, who each have a win this season, Jeff Gordon, who's capable if his car gets more speed, which it hasn't shown on anytihng other than short tracks this year. And you can't even count out Marcos Ambrose with Watkins Glen still coming up. Remember the horrible luck Ambrose had early this season, when he ran out of fuel in the final three laps while running in the top five in at least two races, so he could also be a major factor if he can make it two in a row at Watkins Glen, though it will be a much tougher road for Ambrose to climb. 387. David posted: 07.24.2012 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I recall, JG24FanForever wanted someone to do the 1972-present seasons with the current Formula One points system. Well, here is one season. 1976 Top 5 using current Formula One system 1. Cale Yarborough - 415.5 2. David Pearson - 362 3. Richard Petty - 338 4. Benny Parsons - 284 5. Bobby Allison - 230 388. David posted: 07.24.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, I started and finished that today. 389. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.24.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said "possibly both". Looks like Kasey has locked down one wildcard spot. And Pocono could easily be won by Logano again with the new pavement and shorter race. 390. murb posted: 07.24.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, AJ is indefinitely suspended it looks like. Right now I'm gonna go ahead and call Logano to the 22 car next year. It's really a disappointing deal. At the beginning of this year, I was one of the guys who predicted that he would score his first career win. I even thought that he could contend to get into the Chase. I'm still not gonna judge AJ, just because we still don't know what drug it is he is positive for. But it's really just a shame that his Nascar career is probably going to end this way. 391. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.24.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone else find this "health concerns" for Bob Osborne a flimsy excuse? If he truly does have health issues then I feel bad for him and wish him a speedy recovery, but it sounds to me like a lamer excuse that the "he was leaning on a cane" explanation for Tim Richmond in the promotional poster for The Winston in 1987 when it is pretty clearly his junk hanging out behind Neil Bonnett's left ear. Now THAT was a prank. You know he had to be busting Neil's chops every chance he got about that after it was releasd, which unfortunately wasn't long. 392. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.24.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *right ear 393. Rusty posted: 07.24.2012 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I expect Hornish to get the 22 next year as well. Penske loves him despite underwhelming results. 394. Spen posted: 07.24.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed. 395. cjs3872 posted: 07.24.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I never believed Osborne's "excuse" for a second. He was pushed out of the crew chief's role for the #99 car. What I believe may be going on is that Roush is restructuring his organization, and this may be the second step. Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. moving up and possibly bringing his Nationwide crew chief (Mike Kelley) with him (that is just speculation on my part) was the first. I also think one of the next steps may be Roush doing away with his Nationwide team, and quite possibly his driver development program all together, especially if sponsorship isn't found. Where this would leave Jimmy Fennig if Kelley moves up with Stenhouse is also unknown. But there's no doubt in my mind that Osborne was pushed out of that role as Edwards' crew chief. 396. cjs3872 posted: 07.24.2012 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And as for the A.J. Allmendinger situation, I can say that it's not a big loss for Penske Racing. I said when Penske hired Allmendnger that it was a big mistake, and hardly anyone agreed with me. Now I never saw anything like this happening, but I thought then it was a big mistake to hire Allmendinger, simply because I never thought he was that good. I especially based my original opinion on that by last year, when he clearly regressed in the #43 car, while Marcos Ambrose made significant progress, outrunning Allmendinger a vast majority of the time. The only reason Allmendinger placed higher in the points last year was that he didn't encounter nearly as many problems as Ambrose suffered (and continues to suffer this year), but Ambrose outperformed him most of last year. And remember Allmendinger's nightmarish 2007 rookie season, when his team (Red Bull Racing) had Mike Skinner run a few races, and then released him after 2008? Perhaps they knew before anyone else did that he wasn't that good. He goes to Richard Petty's team and gets a DWI prior to the 2010 season, so there's a history of him putting things in him that don't belong in there, especially when you're driving. And also, has anyone forgotten him getting in Petty's face after the Firecracker 400 at Daytona a year or two ago? Nobody, but nobody does that. That tells me that he also has a problem with a lack of respect for even the icons of the sport. That single incident is what I think led to his departure from Petty. Nobody in the history of the sport demands and deserves more respect than Richard Petty, and for a guy that never finished better than third in any race to get in his face the way he did that night showed to me a complete lack of respect, not just for his employer, but for those that laid the groundwork for the sport. And that lack of respect reared it's ugly head again with this drug situation, as he basically showed no respect for a man who demamds and deserves respect as much as Petty, and that's Roger Penske. For him to effectively spit on both Richard Petty and Roger Penske, it shows what a low calss person he really is, as far as the sport's concerned. So as far as Allmendinger goes, I'd say good riddance to bad rubbish, because these incidents show a complete lack of respect on his part. 397. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 07.25.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Alright, AJ is indefinitely suspended it looks like. Right now I'm gonna go ahead and call Logano to the 22 car next year. It's really a disappointing deal. At the beginning of this year, I was one of the guys who predicted that he would score his first career win. I even thought that he could contend to get into the Chase. I'm still not gonna judge AJ, just because we still don't know what drug it is he is positive for. But it's really just a shame that his Nascar career is probably going to end this way." Agreed on all counts except for Logano to the #22. I think Sam Hornish will absolutely be driving that car next year (though I think Penske should take a chance on Trevor Bayne), especially since he proved he was capable of running up front in Nationwide races for Penske. This is a real shame that AJ's career will likely end this way though, I too predicted that he would get his first win when it was first announced that he got that ride for this year. 398. Spen posted: 07.25.2012 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: Skinner filled in at the start of '08, not in '07, but otherwise spot on. 399. cjs3872 posted: 07.25.2012 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought it was in the middle of the 2007 season when Skinner filled in for Allmendinger, but the overall point stands. 400. startandparkfan posted: 07.25.2012 - 8:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hope Allmendinger does treatment and will be back in 2013! 401. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.25.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dinger is done. I thought he would get off to a slow start this year then pick it up. When he backed in to a 2nd place finish at Martinsville (btw, how much do you guys reckon AJ wishes he would have knocked Newman out of the way now?) I thought it would provide a spark like Brad backing into a 3rd place finish at Darlington did last year. But it didn't. He tried too hard and got too discouraged at bad results. Now this. Oh well. Now Sam is auditioning for next year. If he doesn't get it, I hope Bayne does. He can drive. I certainly hope Logano doesn't. Now, let's talk about something more interesting: Tim Richmond's junk. Seriously, go to Google, type in "Tim Richmond 1987 The Winston poster". We have lost all characters in NASCAR. 402. murb posted: 07.25.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I need to clarify my prediction of Logano to the 22 car. It's not that I want him to go to Penske. I don't care for Logano at all, to put it lightly. But I've just heard that Penske is interested in him and Hornish for that ride. I do hope that Trevor Bayne gets some consideration for it as well. Tim Richmond's junk, lol. My curiosity got me last night and I had to look it up. The funniest part to me is that poor Neil has no idea what is hanging over his head!!!! 403. Jack posted: 07.25.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone else noticied that in the last month alot of people have gotten docked points for infractions 404. cjs3872 posted: 07.25.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But again, murb, if Bayne does gets consideration for that #22 car, as he apparently did last year after Kurt Busch was released, Jack Roush would probably shoot that down, even though both Penske and Roush will be Ford teams next year. Another driver to be considered is David Ragan, who really hasn't done that badly in Front Row Motorsports' #34 car. Frankly, I thought when Penske hired Allmendinger for the #22 car, he should have hired Ragan. At least Ragan was a proven commodity, not only with his win in the Firecracker last year, but he has run well at some of the shorter tracks, particularly Richmond. The one thing that probably shied Penske away from Ragan was that Ragan is known to be mistake-prone, not to mention that Roush might also have had a hand in Ragan not going to Penske. Also, there's a chance that Ryan Newman, the only driver ever to win a Daytona 500 for Penske, might return to Penske next year if Tony Stewart can't keep him for sponsorship reasons. Jamie McMurray is another possibility. We know what McMurray can do in a good car, and that he is a big money driver. In fact, his only good run last year was at the Brickyard. McMurray is also versatile, as his runs on short tracks and road courses when he drove Roush #26 car illustrates. In fact, McMurray's better runs with Roush came at tracks the other Roush drivers have always struggled at, especially the short tracks and road courses. So aside from Hornish and Joey Logano, Trevor Bayne, David Ragan, Ryan Newman, and Jamie McMurray could also be candiates to land there, though Roush would probably block Bayne from going there, unless he releases him for sponsorship reasons. 405. cjs3872 posted: 07.26.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) We now know that A.J. Allmendinger tested postitive because of amphetamines, which his manager called a "stimulant". The question now is, how long had he been using them, and how long he might have been racing while high on the amphetamines. If what I now suspect might be true, this proves that NASCAR has the worst drug testing policy in sports (though the best policy when it comes to punitive action for a positive test). The only way I see Allmendinger having been caught with NASCAR's current testing policy is if he was ratted out by someone else, who said they may have been worried about Allmendinger's actions, though there was nothing that I could see that told me he drove or behaved erraticly. Was he sub-par on the track, yes, but did he drive erraticly, no from what I saw. 406. LordLowe posted: 07.26.2012 - 7:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon will once again fall off the cliff only this time he will head towards the underworld and crash into the river Styx, 407. David posted: 07.26.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just discovered a revolting statistic about the points system. If a driver finished eleventh every week without leading any laps, he'd rank sixth in the standings! 408. cjs3872 posted: 07.26.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, why do you think I've been criticizing the points system for nearly two years now? And when I responded to your comment on Bn France trying to make the racing better in the Chicagoland Nationwide Series page, that was the first thing I eluded to. They have made racing for second place no more important than racing for 32nd place, and as long as the current points system is in place, with no changes, the racing will be ultra-conservative up front, because there's simply no incentive to racing up front. 409. David posted: 07.26.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry. I have never liked the new points system and I have one of my own, I was just pointing out a fact. I am definitely on your side. 410. JG24FanForever posted: 07.26.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #387 David,I'm surprised that no-one even bothered to reply to this post. It clearly shows the extreme flaws of the Nascar point system, since part timer David Pearson finishes a clear 2nd to Yarborough despite missing 8 races! and this is F1's own point system! Nascar fans are getting duped. 411. Spen posted: 07.26.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if Pearson would have ended up winning it all if we used F1's system in 1973. 412. David posted: 07.26.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I picked 1976 because it was clearly another Pearson part-time regime, but did not have as many drivers with top-10s. 1976 had 46 top-10ers. 1973 had 60. 413. David posted: 07.26.2012 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the NASCAR points system, I always thought Brian France insulted our intelligence when he introduced it. 414. 10andJoe posted: 07.26.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ The system is basically the same as the old Latford system, just with different numbers... And this just in: Chevy Camaros in Nationwide in 2013. 415. JG24FanForever posted: 07.26.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) F1 2010-present point system applied to Nascar Cup seasons 1996 Championship Top 2 points totals 1. Jeff Gordon 430!! 2. Terry Labonte 341 1998 Championship Top 2 points totals 1. Jeff Gordon 530(433 of those points for his 19 Top 2's) 2. Mark Martin 425 2007 Championship Top 2 points totals 1. Jimmie Johnson 409 2. Jeff Gordon 393 the fact that Gordon's 1998 is a championship season in 1996 based on his 19 Top 2's alone prove the invalidity of the Cup Championship over the year's. 416. David posted: 07.26.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How...the HECK did Johnson beat him in 2007? 417. JG24FanForever posted: 07.26.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson had 286 points for his Top 2's while Gordon gets 240, that's the difference. F1's points tally drops bad finishes while rewarding winning and finishing 2nd,in my humble opinion this is the way Championships should be won,I think Gordon even wins the title 5 straight years under this point system(1999?) 418. JG24FanForever posted: 07.26.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) never mind 1999: Jarrett 405 Gordon 354 419. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.27.2012 - 9:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've gotta agree, F1 seems to have the best system. If NASCAR put out that system in 1975, I wonder how things would be different? Since all they really cared about at RCR was the championship, would they have ditched the conservative car building and allowed Dale to win more races (with more mechanical failures, but who gives a shit about that?). 420. cjs3872 posted: 07.27.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about the conservative way that RCR built their cars was that because they were conservative with their equipment, Dale Earnhardt was able to flourish at Childress. I think Childress was about the only team that Earnhardt could have had the kind of success he had, because he drove his cars so hard, that they would have broken for every other team in the sport at that time. But because Childress always set up his cars on the conservative side, Earnhardt could run the cars as hard as he could, and they would finish. It is for that reason that he would not have been nearly as successful if he had driven for guys like Junior Johnson, Rick Hendrick, or some of the other teams known for setting up their cars on the edge mechanically, because Earnhardt would have driven them over the edge. 421. NicoRosbergFan posted: 07.27.2012 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you DNF that much, though, DSFF, you don't deserve to win because it means you and your team aren't really great. A truly great team should be able to perform top notch at every round on the calendar, and there should be a disadvantage to DNFing. However, I think IndyCar would have the best if they limited points to 12 drivers. In F1 winning is too heavily rewarded because one win like Pastor Maldonado's has him with more points than Paul di Resta despite the fact that di Resta has 6 point finishes and Maldonado has 2, and Kimi Raikkonen is behind Sebastian Vettel in spite of the fact that Kimi has been a contender at twice as many races, but Vettel has a singular victory. There needs to be rewarding for both consistency and winning because greatness requires BOTH. 422. cjs3872 posted: 07.27.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They're replaying the 2008 Brickyard 400 now on ESPN Classic (why, I don't know), and one thing you note when watching that race is that there were no start-and-parks in that race. That's because there were plenty of quality cars with sponsors capable of filling the field. When the mergers happened after the 2008 season, combined with the top 35 rule effectively killing any new teams and sponsors entering the sport, the modern-day start-and-park plague began, and at least seven cars are expected to S&P for this Sunday's race (eight if the #21 car doesn't make it). 423. 10andJoe posted: 07.27.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully doing away with the Top 35 rule after this season will help. 424. cjs3872 posted: 07.27.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, if they do away with the exemption rule, it can do nothing but help. Now that's not the only reason for the rash of start-and-parks in recent years, but I think it's a big reason why there have been. The exemption rule was designed to help the teams already in the sport, and it did, but what they lost sight of is the fact that it kept a lot of potential teams out, as well as prevent existing teams from expanding. Frankly, the exepmtion ruile is one reason why Joe Gibbs hasn't expanded to four cars and why other teams, such as Penske and Ganassi don't field more than two cars, though there are other reasons, the economy being foremost among them. 425. David posted: 07.27.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just finished reading "Miracle" by Peter Golenbock. Great book. 426. JG24FanForever posted: 07.27.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Cup championship Top 2 with F1 points system 1. Jeff Gordon 374 2. Dale Earnhardt 370 Jeff would have locked it up with a race left,proving the "smoke and mirrors" effect of Earnhardt's real chances that season. 427. DaleSrFanForever posted: 07.27.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I have read that book too, and it is outstanding. As for 1995, it showcased the beauty of the Latford system, mainly bonus points. Dale actually had a better avg finish that Jeff that year, but got mutilated in bonus points leaving Jeff only needing to not finish last in the final race to win or lead one lap. Speed beat consistency that year (but not the next year). 428. David posted: 07.28.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ready for a heartbreaker? 1992 Top 5 with Formula One's point system 1. Bill Elliott - 258 2. Davey Allison - 250 3. Mark Martin - 214 4. Alan Kulwicki - 211 5. Harry Gant - 194 The ending was completely anticlimactic, as you can guess, as Allison led the standings for a great deal of the season. Elliott took the points lead at Rockingham, lost at Phoenix, and regained it after Atlanta. Kulwicki never made a challenge, and when Allison wrecked, that was it. 429. Spen posted: 07.28.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: I took care of '73 for you. The problem of 60 point finishers is easily negated if you ignore every driver who only scored one solitary top ten. Here's how that season would have turned out under the modern F1 system: 1. David Pearson - 326 2. Cale Yarborough - 314 3. Richard Petty - 309 4. Buddy Baker - 286 5. Benny Parsons - 243 6. Bobby Allison - 242 7. Cecil Gordon - 127 8. Bobby Isaac - 81 9. Dick Brooks - 72 10. Coo Coo Marlin - 60 Lennie Pond - 60 Other notable differences include 4th place James Hylton falling to 12th, 8th and 9th place Walter Ballard and Elmo Langley going to 21st and 27th respectively, and Jabe Thomas going from 11th to outside the top fifty. Mark Donohue finished 19th while only running two races. 430. David posted: 07.28.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that just about closes up this thread for now. See you at the Brickyard 400 forum! 431. b4il3y posted: 06.25.2014 - 3:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a random list about the worst fades in the careers of the 5 greatest drivers in Cup History(only my opinion) 1. Richard Petty: 4 straight Top 5 less seasons(1989-92) pathetic. Please, go to Richard Petty's face and tell him he was pathetic. That's just horrible that you said that. 432. Anthony posted: 04.20.2019 - 6:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was the final NASCAR race to be presented in 4:3 aspect ratio without any bars on the top & bottom if you didn't own a HDTV set but rather owned a SDTV/CRT TV back in the day. 433. Anthony posted: 04.20.2019 - 6:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, my bad! This is not that race. 434. Rich posted: 12.15.2020 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Adam Alexander, Wally Dallenbach and Kyle Petty were the commentators. Matt Yocum, Ralph Sheheen, Marty Snider and Chris Neville were the pit road reporters. Larry McReynolds was the in-race analyst. Lindsay Czarniak was the studio host. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: