|| *Comments on the 2012 Pennsylvania 400:* View the most recent comment <#347> | Post a comment <#post> 1. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.04.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I almost died to put on the truck race at the start of lap 2 when I saw Johnny Sauter enter the garage but stay AHEAD of 2 trucks. Already had parked before the end of lap 1... 2. Baker posted: 08.04.2012 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony your qualifying had been a joke this year. With the lack of cautions this year you cannot expect to start in the back and get to the front. 3. jabber1990 posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) whenever I blame everyone else for my problems I call it "pulling a bodine" 4. jabber1990 posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "im going to go all Todd Bodine on you!" "meaning" "i'm going to blame you for a problem that is my fault" 5. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And people wail on the Busch brothers for being self-absorbed permia donnas, man Onion needs to get over himself. 6. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bodinitis strikes... Congrats Joey! 7. jabber1990 posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) is coulters mother just really excited? or drunk? 8. 10andJoe posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) >2 trucks. Already had parked before the end of lap 1... Only one parked (Lafferty). Cobb's truck blew an engine coming down for the green flag. Congrats Joey Coulter! I bet a lot of people are pulling their hair out now having lost bets on which RCR driver would win first. As for the cup race: I'd say JPM has a good shot at winning if he can keep it out of the wall/other cars. - TriStar Motorsports/Humphrey Smith Racing has two cars in the race, the first time that team has ever done so (161 previous starts, 1989-1997 and 2012). 9. murb posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great job by Joey Coulter on that last restart. Happy for him... Of course, as soon as John Wes gets canned from the 32 car in Cup he pulls out a top ten in the Truck race. Anyway, I have to eat my words a little bit. He did a good job at the end holding off Paludo and those guys. But he still isn't deserving of a shot at Cup yet. 10. 10andJoe posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Townley didn't get canned, per se. From what I can tell he told Stoddard he wasn't ready to run the Cup car yet, was what happened, hence White getting in the 32. 11. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Didn't see any of the Truck race (just woke up lol, God bless night shift) but as for Todd Bodine whining, he is Geoff's brother after all. I will have to post a link sometime, it is the 1987 Spring Dover race (Davey's second win in his 16th start) and there is a segment in the middle about Dale Earnhardt who, at this point in that season, already had a commanding point lead that even Jeff Gordon couldn't have blown (yeah, I had to go there). He had also been involved in quite a few controversial incidents in the previous two years. It is basically about 3 solid minutes of drivers whining about Dale, with Geoff leading the way. In other words, it is my personal Holy Grail of old time racing footage. So it is a family thing. And for those saying "hey, Dale didn't close out 1987 out very strong", while he didn't win any of the last 7 races and Bill won 3 of the last 4, his points lead only shrank from 608 to 489. And that is with two blown engines at Dover and Riverside (experimenting). Not exactly 302 to 34 in just 4 races. 12. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And of course DSFF, Geoff Bodine was also involved in some of what happened late in the 1987 All-Star Race with himself, Bill Elliott, Dale Earnhardt, and even Terry Labonte, as he (Bodine) came down on Bill Elliott and spun himself out (an incident that is often lost in what happened later). 13. Spen posted: 08.04.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Happy birthday to Jeff Gordon. And Kurt Busch. Though I had the day before any of them did. 14. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) ZOMG! The women's section of ESPN's website, which gives weekly updates on the GoDaddy girl, has done a lenghty feature on Johanna Long, talking about her rise through the racing ranks, how she is doing well with MLM's mid pack funding, and even talked in length about her Snowball Derby win. Her Snowball Derby win! Did you know she bumped that girly looking shrimp Landon Cassill (former HMS development driver) out of the way to win it? I didn't. That is awesome. Our little girl is growing up! Cjs, of course Bodine blamed Earnhardt for that first lap dustup. Then whined like a little girl afterwards. I'll have to find the exact quotes, but he said something to the effect of "If that is what it takes to be Winston Cup champion, then he can have it!". Ha! Like Bodine could do anything about Dale being Winston Cup champ in the first place. Dale was so far out of his league, Geoff should have just been happy to be on track with him. Remember, by May 1987, Dale was the defending Winston Cup champ, his second title, and had already pretty much wrapped up his 3rd Winston Cup already barring a Gordon-esque points collapse (yup, had to go there again) with 4 more to come. How many did Geoff win? How many did Geoff come close to winning? That's right, a big fat ZERO! Damn smart mouth Yankee bastard. 15. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.04.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Bodinitis Hate to know what DSFF thinks of me... if Bodines are smart mouth Yankee @#$#@$#!, then what am I? 16. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Bodine did initially blame Earnhardt for that first-lap dust-up, even ramming Earnhardt's car after the race like Elliott did and Labonte wanted to (for trying to run him off the track entering turn one two laps after the infamous incident with Elliott), until he was told that Bill Elliott was actually the one that turned him. And let's not forget that Earnhardt tried to wreck Elliott late in the 1987 Daytona 500. Ironically, while Earnhardt had incidents with both Bodine and Labonte after that, he didn't have too many run-ins with Elliott after that afternoon, while Bodine, Elliott, and Labonte rarely ever had problems with each other. The one notable exception to that being the spring race at Bristol in 1988 when Bodine spun Elliott late, though Elliott rallied to beat Elliott that day. It's also ironic that, while Junior Johnson wanted to hire Earnhardt for 1987 before Earnhardt really got going with Childress, Labonte, Bodine, and Elliott, in that order, drove Junior's #11 car during Earnhardt's best years (1987-'94). 17. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That should have said Elliott rallied to beat Bodine after Bodine spun him late in the 1988 spring race at Bristol. Sorry for the error. 18. JG24FanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I wanted to address an argument about Gordon vs Johnson from the last forum pertaining to the range of years that Johnson had 7 win seasons,6 years 2004-2009 to Jeff's 5 year's 1995-99. well how about lowering the win total to 6 in a season(just 1 fewer)and Gordon all of sudden is way ahead of either Johnson or The Intimidator. Gordon's range: 13 season's 1995-2007 ha! Johnson's range: 7 season's 2004-2010 Earnhardt's range: 6 season's 1987-1993 And for the sake of ribbing. Back-Back wins: Jeff Gordon 22 Dale Earnhardt 15 Jimmie Johnson 10 And more ribbing. Head to Head wins: Jeff Gordon 52 Dale Earnhardt 23 Does the above statistic make Gordon a greater driver than Earnhardt, like it automatically does with Johnson over Gordon? 19. murb posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, you're right. I just saw on the qualifying rerun where they said that it was JWT's decision to step out of that car. My bad. Regardless, the Truck race today was the first good run I've ever seen out of him. 20. Spen posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) There's two major differences between Gordon vs. Earnhardt and Gordon vs. Johnson. 1.) Gordon was twenty years younger than Earnhardt. Dale was already 42 when Gordon was a rookie, already past the traditional prime years of 28-38. Johnson on the other hand, is only four years younger than Gordon. Jeff was 30 in Johnson's rookie year. By normal standards, 2002-2010 should have been part of Gordon's best years. They weren't. And 2.) Gordon and Earnhardt drove for different teams, one of which was coming into its own as a huge powerhouse, and one that was on the decline, being behind the curve on new strategies, and the new multi-car system. Gordon and Johnson however, have been on the exact same team, even the same shop until last year. But Gordon still got beat consistently anyway. 21. JG24FanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) and this is for cjs3872,you've been comparing Jeff Gordon to Bobby Allsion and iv'e been comparing to Gordon to Petty, but I think you are right about Gordon to Allison especially since 2002 when the true "Next Petty" came along in the form of Jimmie Johnson and I think their rivalry is very similar to Petty/Allison too. But back to Gordon being the Modern Bobby Allison. The way he's gone about his career since his version of Chad Knaus(Ray Evernham)left before the fall Martinsville race in 1999, is very alike in that he's won a single championship and been routinely beaten by a "Poster Boy" driver(Jimmie Johnson) just like Allison was with "Poster Boy" Petty,who for all his prime 7 championship seasons had the same core people behind him: Inman/Maurice Petty, which is the Knaus/Malec counterparts of the 60's and 70's, while Bobby( ever the paranoid,but he was right most of the time)spent his prime years pissing in the wind with ever a different team, and coming out on top in key ways, like sweeping Darlington in 1975 despite driving a AMC Matador and winning a title in 1983 at age 45(the oldest)against the hottest driver in Nascar(His Daytona accident cut the edge off though according to Junior Johnson)in Darrell Waltrip with a team that Waltrip threw away a championship to King Petty. I think people often overlook the fact that Johnson is the only driver of the last couple of generations to have 10+ season's of the same Crew Chief/Car Chief while everyone else is struggling to find cohesiveness within a different group of people, just like Petty had in his day in the 60' and 70's. But make no mistake the thing that Petty and Johnson have in common is that they're Tyrannical and brilliant driver's with the team to back them up. Gordon however since Evernham left has had to deal with no fewer than 4 different Crew Chief's, winning 38 times with 1 championship and 2 very close shaves in 2004 and 2007(both season's he had different Chief's). If Gordon wins a title with Gustafson it'll be his version of Bobby's 1983 title. In fact,if Gordon ever won his fifth title, it would be bigger than Earnhardt's Daytona 500 victory(no offense Earnhardt fans)in terms of anticipation, because of the heartbreak Gordon and his fans have suffered over the 04' and 07' defeats "due to" the Chase and the subsequent horrible 08'-12' that he's had since. 22. JG24FanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Earnhardt had 419 starts with 53 wins when Gordon started in 1993. Gordon had 293 starts and 58 wins when Johnson started in 2002. I don't agree with the automatic idea that your prime years are 30-40, because the mileage Gordon put on from the age of 21-30 was enough for him to be past his prime, plus you know how racer's reach a certain amount of success and taper off. 23. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But Spen, back when Earnhardt was at his absloute prime, a driver was often considered at his best from his late 30s to early 40s, so actually, Earnhardt, at 43 at the time of his last championship, was right in line with that, though he was beginning his downward slide. Remember that Harry Gant collected nearly half of his career total of 18 Cup wins after his 50th birthday, and Morgan Shepherd was at his best in his early 50s with the Wood Brothers (which were also their best years as a full-time team). Also, one big reason why Johnson has been so much better than Gordon the last decade has to do with the most unscrupulous and underhanded crew chief in the history of the sport, a crew chief that was willing, on more than one occasion, to sabotage the efforts of the team that shared the same shop with his. (I think Dale, Jr. may be about to find out what Gordon already knows about this.) A crewman on the #24 team that year even admitted that yesterday. Now I'm not saying that Johnson wouldn't have beaten Gordon anyway, but after the Hendrick plane crash in 2004, Gordon rarely even got a fair shot. And as I said, when those two battle for the win in equal cars (which is rare in the last few years), why is it that Gordon is usually the one that comes out on top? And Gordon may be going through this again with Kenny Francis, who is also known for witholding information from other teammates. Another thing that a lot of people miss is this. By the time Gordon won his fourth championship in 2001, even though he was 30 years of age, he had been racing for 25 years, so that also changes what the prime years of his career would be, in terms of age. That's why I use the 17 year/550 start mark as a point when a driver begins to go downhill, rather than his chronological age. For instance, Earnhardt made his 500th Cup start the year AFTER his last championship. Darrell Waltrip's last big year, 1989, also came prior to his 500th start. But Earnhardt and waltrip started at a later age, so when they reached 40 years of age, they had been racing for about as long as Gordon had been when he reached 30. for that reason, the age factor can't be compared when talking about today's stars vs. yesteryear's. 24. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, if Gordon ever wins a fifth title, I would compare more to when Terry Labonte won the title in 1996, than when Bobby Allison won it in '83 (co-incidentally, the year before Labonte's first title when he was teamed with the very same Dale Inman that led Petty to all his championships). And as I said, Gordon has had to put up with the most underhanded crew chief the sport's ever seen until last year. And unfortunately for him, he's now got Kenny Francis to deal with, and he's also known for not sharing information with other crew chiefs within the organizations he's worked with, so for Gordon, he may be going through a case of deja vu. And as far as your crew chief/driver tandems go, have you forgotten about Tony Stewart and Greg Zipadelli? They were together for a full decade (1999-2008) with Joe Gibbs. 25. BON GORDON posted: 08.04.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well everyone I will be going to this race tomorrow. It's my first race since I went to the epic 2007 Goody's Cool Orange 500 at Martinsville but I have a problem. My buddy and I will be driving down and coming back tomorrow afterwards cause we both work all day Monday and Tuesday and can't stay. It's supposed to rain and I'm hoping we can get the race in. It doesn't look good though. We are from Pittsburgh and It's a 5 and a half hour drive. It also sucks that Gordon qualified 27th. Ugh!! 26. Spen posted: 08.04.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of the roughly 2300 races that have been run in Cup over the years, over 1700 of them have been won by a driver between the ages of 28 and 39. Those twelve years are each represented by over 100 wins, while no other ages are anywhere close to that mark. That is why I consider that age range to be a typical driver's prime. Granted, as Cjs said, Gordon's career hasn't exactly been typical, but that's his problem. 27. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Like Spen said, JJ and Gordon are very much comparable because a) their career arcs have been the exact same (get with HMS right off the bat and stay there for your entire career) and b) they have driven the exact same equipment at the same time. And again, if Knaus was shutting off the 24 team, there is nobody to blame except Gordon himself for either not aaserting his will (he was the alpha dog at HMS or should have been plus he OWNS A PART OF THE 48 TEAM!) or not being aware enough. Dale on the other hand began with an upstart Osterlund team, winning his first Cup in just his 2nd season, and Osterlund's 3rd, then played ride roulette for the next 3 seasons lowlighted by a 2 year sting with Bud Moore where they DNFed more than they finished, mostly due to mechanical issues. Then he joined RCR in 1984 which had been a shoestring independent as late as the Summer of 1981. They needed two years to iron out the bugs (not enough speed in '84, not enough consistency in '85 with 11 blown motors in just 28 races). Then he dominated '86-'95 which was the most brutal stretch in the history of the sport as far as difficulty of winning where the fields were stacked with legends capable of winning any week and very short seasons (29 races). I know I trash his personality constantly, but the fact is Geoff Bodine was a really good driver. The fact he never even contended for a title says a lot for that era. And Jeff kicked Dale's ass so bad from '95-'99 for a number of reasons. First, as Spen mentioned, HMS stepped up to the top team in the sport, a spot they still hold almost 20 years later, and RCR fell behind. The key was the introduction of the new Monte Carlo. HMS nailed it, RCR treaded water with it. Still, Dale gave a dominant Gordon a big scare at the end of '95 cutting a 305 point lead to 34 by season's end and actually had a better average finish as well as more Top 5's and Top 10's. But Jeff won two more times than Dale and killed him in laps led and bonus points and the right guy won the Winston Cup. Then, in 1996, with HMS pulling even further away and RCR falling further behind, Dale was still in the mix for the title with the HMS power duo of Gordon and Labonte when he had his awful Talladega wreck. Considering he was close to the points lead at the time and Jeff had his annual late season points collapse, my question is who do you have your money on if Dale is still in striking distance? A can't finish Gordon, a passive Labonte, or The Intimidator? I can't prove it, but I think that crash cost Dale title #8. Remember, in his career he was in good position to win the title 8 times and won 7 of them, only failing in '89 to his greatest rival, Rusty. The rest is history. An injured Dale was only a 7th place driver from '97-'99 while RCR just kept falling further behind as the addition of Skinner hurt them even worse. But after surgery before the 2000 season as well as Richard bringing in an investor, Dale was able to carry that 3 team to a distant 2nd place points finish at the age of 49. Yes folks, Dale Earnhardt is the greatest in NASCAR history. And Jj is clearly better than Gordon. 28. JG24FanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes folks, Dale Earnhardt is the greatest in NASCAR history. And JJ is clearly better than Gordon." From your point of view. sorry if I come off as a robot spitting out stats to try and prove a point,but it could be my own biased towards Jeff that I think of him as "The Greatest" and I do print figures quite often, but I really think Jeff is the complete package for better or worse. examples(figures)of Gordon's career contrast: 4 Title's(2 close season ending fades,2 300+ point title's) 2 Title runner-ups(1996 Ultra-dominant failure,2007 Ultra-consistent failure) 1998 title: arguably the greatest Modern title season 1996 runner-up: definitely the greatest Modern Runner-up 17 straight Top 5's----21 straight outside the Top 5 47 wins in 161 races between 1995-1999(Legend,Fred Lorenzen 158 starts 26 wins) 1 win in 114 races between the end of 2007 and the start of 2011(awful) 12 Plate wins with 14 D.N.F's 4 wins in 5 year's at Watkins Glen to 10 straight outside the Top 5 there 14 straight multi-win seasons from 1994-2007 to 1 win in 3 years from 2008-2010 I really don't care who's "The Greatest" anymore because the variable's and other random factor's muddle everything enough to make any realistic list merely subjective. but, indeed by being subjective I will make an entirely biased list of who I think are the 12 greatest: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. Jimmie Johnson 3. Bobby Allison 4. Richard Petty 5. Dale Earnhardt 6. Curtis Turner(Glen Wood said he was the best he ever saw) 7. Darrell Waltrip 8. Junior Johnson 9. Cale Yarborough 10.Tony Stewart 11.Herb Thomas 12.Mark Martin(he has 268 Top 5's) 29. Spen posted: 08.04.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. I'm really going to have to pull for Kurt in the Nationwide race. He's co-sponsored by Casey's General Stores, the best gas station/convenience store in the entire USA. 30. JG24FanForever posted: 08.04.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon turned 41 today and qualified 27th. 2 times 7 is 14, 14 is 41 backwards this is the 5th time Gordon has Q'd 27th with finishes of: 1st 2nd 5th 11th I hope a little goofy numerology help's Gordon's chances tomorrow. 31. joey2448 posted: 08.04.2012 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YEA GO ELLIOTT SADLER!!! Nationwide win #4 this season comes at Iowa, and I love his words on the radio: "They are not gonna take this championship away from us!" Michael Annett CONTINUES to impress. Good runs also by Darrell Wallace Jr., Brett Moffitt, Ryan Blaney and Johanna Long. Oh, and go suck it, Austin Dillon! Haha! 32. murb posted: 08.04.2012 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really happy and proud for Elliott and the 2 guys to get that win after that BS last week. Relatively quiet race for Danica. Glad she didn't tear up anyone else's equipment and ruin their day. Great runs by a lot of the young guys, just as joey2448 was saying. 33. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But DSFF, Osterlund's team was not exactly a upstart team. Remember that was the original Penske entry into NASCAR when they ran Matadors, and they were successful, especially when Bobby Allison drove it in 1974-'76. (Mark Donohue won a race and Gary Bettenhausen also had moderate success in that car.) In 1976, Penske changed to Mercurys (and changed the car number to 2), and although he didn't win any races, he still finished fourth in points. But Penske released Allison alfter Allison got hurt running a modified race late in '76. Penske then hired Dave Marcis, who had driven for Penske some in 1972 and '73 before selling his team to Rod Osterlund. Osterlund, in turn decided to run GM cars, so Penske sold his Merucry and Ford parts to George Elliott. And as for Gordon not asserting his will on Chad Knaus, that's not in either his or Rick Hendrick's character, and never has been. Some of those that might have asserted their authority were lost in the HMS plane crash in 2004. I still go back to that because the #24 and #48 teams were equals up until that point, but when that plane crash happened, Chad Knaus took full advantage and took over the competition side of HMS and basically has had cart blanche over the competition side of HMS ever since. And if he can't beat the other HMS cars fair and square, Knaus will resort to cheating, and he's apparently begun to do that again. Reports have surfaced that wgat gave Jimmie Johnson such a big advantage at Indy was that Knaus offset the rear of the car to give it more downforce. I'll guarantee that the #88 will never see such a setup advantage in the Chase, and it's doubtful that the #5 and #24 cars will use it, either. Actually, by not making the Chase this year (and Gordon won't because he's not going to win this year), Gordon's team may start to try things with next year's car to get a jump on the competition that way and try things that might work on next year's cars. 34. LordLowe posted: 08.04.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I think It is time to give up on Gordon. 35. cjs3872 posted: 08.04.2012 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, I've been saying that most of the year. His cars are just not fast enough to contend for wins. If I remember right, not counting restarts and pit stop sequences, Gordon has officially led under full racing conditions in only three (out of 20) races this year, Martinsville, Dover, and Sonoma. That is indicative of a lack of speed. He says his cars are fast, and the commentators say his cars are fast, but the races and the stats from the races tell an entirely different story. His cars are usualy consistent enough to run from fourth to eighth, but just lack the speed to get up and lead, and you can't win if you can't lead, and you can't lead with cars that are off the pace. It's that simple. Now if he was close enough to tenth in points to get in the Chase on points, then I'd say he has a chance, but being so far out of tenth in points (nearly two full races behind tenth), and with cars too slow to lead, he has no chance to make the Chase, since his only way in is to win, and his cars are too slow for that. They typically handle well, but just don't have the speed. In fact, Gordon's not finished in the top three once this year to illustrate that point even further. 36. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 1:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) When Earhnardt turned 41 he was already a 5 time champion. Just saying. And cjs, Dale's crew chief for the final 2/3 of his first championship season was 20 years old. Nuff said. 37. Paul posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, that 20-year old crew chief (Doug Richert) is now crew chief for Landon Cassill, who hadn't been born until after Earnhardt was already a 3-time champion. Fun fact. As far as all these debates about who's better between Earnhardt and Gordon, and Gordon and Johnson, I think it's important that we all admit that each of these three were/are the best during their eras. I give Earnhardt a ton of credit for being the alpha male during NASCAR's most competitive era (mid '80s to mid 90s), and winning 7 championships with 3 crew chiefs. But I also give Gordon credit for coming in and not only dethroning Earnhardt from the mid to late '90s, but also for overtaking such veteran stars as Labonte, Martin, Wallace, Waltrip, Schrader, Elliott, Jarrett, and Marlin en route to doing so. Yes, I know that he had Ray Evernham as his crew chief, but last I checked, the crew chief doesn't drive the race car. And I give credit to Jimmie Johnson for being the only driver in this era who knows how not to choke when it's gut-check time and takes full advantage of his great equipment. I don't compare drivers based on stats so much as seeing how well they perform in terms of consistency and longevity. Plus, doing well against greater competition plays a deciding role in their level of greatness. Johnson's greatness is negatively affected because of this, as factors such as the Chase, more weak-minded/emotional/less-talented competition, and a cheating crew chief. Each of which has hurt his legacy, which is a shame since I think he could've competed and won against the best of them from the '80s and '90s when talent mattered the most. The stats tell the tale about how dominating Johnson is, but minus Gordon, Stewart, and Kenseth, he hasn't had to deal with consistent competition like Gordon and Earnhardt did in their days. I think winning 4 championships over the likes of Earnhardt, Rusty, Martin, the Labonte brothers, Jarrett is more impressive than winning 5 championships over Gordon, Stewart, Kenseth, and a revolving door of prima donnas. And while I'm a huge Jeff Gordon fan, my greatest knock against him is the fact that he seems to shy away from being the #1 guy. He's got the stats to back up his dominance, but unlike Earnhardt and Johnson, and others greats like Petty, Pearson, Cale, and Allison, he didn't command respect wherever he went. I think when Earnhardt walked through the garage, people took notice and made sure to give him the proper respect on the racetrack. And that includes NASCAR itself. DSFF, you mentioned before that Earnhardt was once given his lap back after a wrongful penalty was given to him, and he was allowed to speed on pit road at Charlotte '92 en route to his only win of the season. But this season alone, we've seen several instances where Gordon isn't given great respect by his fellow competitiors or NASCAR. One of which was at Martinsville when Bowyer thought nothing of making it 3-wide on Gordon and Johnson and wound of wrecking all three of them. The other being at Dover when NASCAR blatantly threw the caution for debris after Gordon had made his green flag pitstop before everyone else and ruined what could've been Gordon-Johnson 3. These instances tell me that other drivers and NASCAR think they can get away with pushing Gordon around because they know he won't do anything about it (except for the rare fight with Kenseth and Burton). Of course this could be because most drivers today think they own the racetrack, but I think that if Gordon showed the kind of fire off the track that Earnhardt and those other greats I named did, then he'd be more respected by his peers. Then finally, we get to The Intimidator himself. I don't think I can add anything more than what DSFF and others have already mentioned to state why he's the greatest of all time. I'll just say this: Seven championships with three crew chiefs, six championships during NASCAR's most competitive era, one championship for a team that didn't exist a year after winning the championship. Also, the man finished 2nd in points at age 49. 'Nuff said. There are five drivers in today's NASCAR that remind me of Earnhardt in some way, shape, or form. Tony Stewart and the Busch brothers have his aggressiveness and attitude, but each of them are more known for their off-track behavior and aren't focused enough to dominate the sport like he did (combined, they may never reach 7 championships). Jeff Burton (I know it sounds crazy) has his respect from the rest of the garage and commands attention when he speaks, but his level of talent and success will never be compared to Earnhardt's (in Burton's best season, he still got beat out by a 49-year old Earnhardt). And Jimmie Johnson has Dale's focus and drive to be the best, but the lack of competition and leadership makes even him seem out of Earnhardt's league. 38. Paul posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention Brad Keselowski along with those other five from my previous post. If given another year or two, I think Brad could challenge Johnson as being the best driver in NASCAR as his driving style reminds me of Earnhardt's from the late '70s/early '80s. More experience will help him become more like Earnhardt from the late '80s/early '90s. Another thing missing in NASCAR these days is a strong alpha male and a strong supporting cast around him to ensure everybody stayed in line and did their talking on the track (although it sounds like Geoff Bodine was the outlier). When Earnhardt died, NASCAR lost its alpha male and although it still had Rusty, Gordon, Jarrett, Elliott, the Labontes, Marlin, Schrader, Burton, and Martin, none of them could fill Earnhardt's shoes in the garage area. Now all of them are either retired or less competitive than they used to be, NASCAR is without a strong leader in the garage to straighten the younger, immature drivers out. As a result, we're left with a revolving door of guys like Edwards, Harvick, and Hamlin to go along with loners like Stewart, Kahne, and Kenseth who make no attempt to be the leader. I'm not going to put all the blame on Jimmie Johnson or Gordon, Labonte, or Burton, but I bet that if Earnhardt or Rusty or any of those other stars from the '80s/'early '90s were still around, drivers today would have more respect for one another. It's just another testament for how great Earnhardt was off the track. 39. Paul posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another thing I want to add about Brad has to do with his recent comments concerning the future of Penske Racing. Rather than just sit idly by as Penske decides who will drive the 22 car in the future, he wants to be in the decision-making process in finding a teammate. He also said that he wants to play a role in helping Penske grow as a team in NASCAR. This is so great because he's not just looking out for the #2 team, but for the #22 team as well. This act of selflessness makes me proud to call myself a Brad fan. 40. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:41 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) It is completely irrational to say Earnhardt is the greatest of all-time. To say the 80s and 90s were the most competitive eras is ridiculous. Dale Earnhardt was the only driver of that era who had the consistency of the drivers in the 60s and 70s going against Bill Elliott, Rusty Wallace, Ricky Rudd, Davey Allison and Mark Martin during his last six title years. The only one of those guys who had even slight consistency was Martin. Elliott and Wallace were infamous for being inconsistent to the extent they only won one title each. Rudd never drove for good enough teams. Allison never had the consistency to win a title in his life-time. The most competitive time statistically was the late 70s, ironically. That time frame saw Cale Yarborough, David Pearson and Donnie Allison and Neil Bonnett (when they were there), Richard Petty, Benny Parsons, Bobby Allison, Darrell Waltrip, Buddy Baker, Lennie Pond, and Dick Brooks all battling it out week-in week-out. I have two words that take away from all drivers who came around the late 90s: POWER STEERING But it really isn't worth starting a whole discussion over; there are ways to prove every era was the best so let's not waste our fingers over it. I must say one thing: cjs, quit making such assertive statements like you control the universe; at first it was kind of funny, but now it is just aggravating, especially when you are wrong so often. 41. LordLowe posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica Patrick will be Irrelevant in 5 years. 42. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, you nailed it. It takes a combination of about 6 drivers currently to equal what Dale was by himself to the sport. And you are also right that Jeff doesn't command the respect of Dale before him and JJ after him. Jeff, by his own admission, was an asshole (his words) off the track during the height of his domination off the track. Cjs, you mention Chad seeming to have it out for Jeff. Seeing as how he worked on his crew from '95-'97 and never exactly has glowing stories to tell about those years despite 2 championships and 27 wins, could it be Jeff treated him like dirt and now he is getting his revenge? Although was a complete asshole on track, he had a ton of friends off it including some of his fiercest on track competitors like Rusty, Terry, Davey, Ernie, and even Bill and him became close. Hell, him and Darrell became BFFs. Nico, I will explain later why the mid 80's thru mid 90's were far and away the toughest era. Right now I amreally tired from a long night and am going to sleep. In fact, I just might sleep through this entire race. Doubt I'll miss much if I do. 43. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, having seen the SportsCentury program done on Gordon, your assertion of how he was of the track in his glory years is probably not far off, but as was said in that program, he was not a happy person, and some of that had to do with the fact that he was often being controlled by the gold digger of a wife he had back then. Another reason could be that he was too successful too fast, and didn't know how to handle it. Dale Earnahrdt, Sr. once said that the worst thing that ever happened to him was winning the championship in 1980 for those same reasons. And NicoRosbergFan, what do you mean about my assertions. If it's about my prediction of Gordon being done for the year, the proof is in the races and the stats from the races. When your teammates are all dominant forces (and they have been), and you've led just three races out of 20, and are constantly well off their pace (they are again this weekend, qualifying 27th with the rest of HMS in the top ten), but can move up due to the handling of the car, then I'd say that he has a steady, good handling car that is just not fast enough to contend with the leaders, but can run in the fourth to seventh place area, which is where you see him run on the high-speed tracks when everything is right this year. Of the three races he's led under racing conditions, two of them are the slowest tracks on the circuit, and neither of the two ovals are greater than a mile in length. 44. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) RUSTY!!!!! Awesome to hear him being so candid about how Dale felt about Skinner as a teammate through their personal conversations. I just woke up and this is the first thing I am hearing, but I hope we are gonna get vintage Rusty in the booth, the one we saw in a few NWide telecasts this year, and then was quickly put back in the infield studio with very little air time. Cjs, I was speaking about Jeff's comments in the Hendrick documentary, the one narrated by Tom Cruise a few years ago in between his praying to Jobu, making shitty movies, and making sure Katie Holmes didn't outshine his badly fading star. The full version which I found on YouTube (doubt it is still there) and much different then the TV version that was only the goood and the plane crash. The full version actually acknowledges Rick's felony charges, Jeff's nasty divorce, and Jeff's personality. Jeff uses the words "asshole" to describe himself in the 90's. A few times. I wonder how much of that contributes to his relative lack of respect in the sport compared to other mega successful drivers. 45. Eric posted: 08.05.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, What NicoRosbergFan means assertions is stuff like you saying Aric Almirola is going to cause a crash at the Coca Cola 600 because he won the pole and you make keeping that point he is going a cause crash early in a race before the race starts. You done stuff like that in the past and it later proved that you were wrong. 46. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I'm not doubting where you saw the material. what I was saying was that you assertion was not far off, because his own mother said in the SportsCentury program done on him that Gordon was not a very happy person. The fact remains that, out of the car, Gordon has always been the type of guy that has a lot of clout, but refuses to assert it. But he's always been respected in the garage area. I'm brought back to Kevin Harvick's comments after the 2003 race at Sonoma, where Robby Gordon created a big controversy when he passed Harvick (his teammate at the time) racing back to the caution, which was still allowedthen, and Jeff roundly criticized Robby for that, and Robby had some unpleasant comments about that. When Harvick was asked about all this, he took Jeff's side in that dispute, reminding Robby that Jeff was a four-time champion, and deserves the respect that such status commands, so he's always had the respect of his fellow peers. Jeff has always had the clout, but does not have personality to wield it, but on the rare occasion that he does speak his piece, he has everyone's attention. 47. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Eric, when I am wrong, and I was dead wrong about my fears regarding that situation, I have usually admitted so. A driver more aggressive than Almirola might have created a problem in that kind of situation, having never started up front and now doing so for the first time on such a big stage, but there was no problem in that case. But there have been times where that's been a big problem (such as the 1982 Indianapolis 500 with Kevin Cogan and the 1992 Cup finale at Atlanta with Rick Mast), which is why I had those fears. At least, there won't be any situations like that the rest of the year, since there are no big races until next year's Daytona 500. 48. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I think It is time to give up on Gordon." Bullshit. Jeff is still an elite driver. He isn't the super faded 90's Petty. The way Gordon Qualifies these days he looks more like Big E and Tony Stewart starting outside the Top 20 and getting great finishes from them. 49. Schroeder51 posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'm just going to say this again: Jeff Gordon will never win another race. I'm almost willing to bet on that. 50. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just give him the damn trophy. 51. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure I'd go that far, Schroeder51. But he just doesn't have the speed to lead races this year. In fact, as I mentioned before, he's only led three of 20 races this year under full racing conditions entering today's race. The races I give him a legitimate chance to win are at Bristol, Atlanta (where speed is relatively unimportant due to the track surface), and Martinsville. 52. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Gordon will win, and then you'll be wrong. I hope being wrong is okay. 53. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Gordon gets a Top 5 today, he'll equal Big E in Top's 5 from a starting position of 21st or worse with 34. 54. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well, the ratings are gonna plummet now. Gordon will make it to 90 wins. 55. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Will Johnson reach 90 wins? 56. Smiff_99 posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's days like this when I HATE being a die-hard fan. Why? Because I'm gonna sit here for the next two hours and watch Jimmie run 5 seconds in front of everyone on his way to yet another dominating win.....I HATE it, but I'm gonna sit here and take it. Dammit.... 57. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most likely imo, although that involves forecasting pretty far into the future. If e keeps racing for HMS for many years like Gordon he will. 58. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were 10 cars that started this race that had no intention of running the full distance, or about one quarter of the starting field, including two exempt cars. They were the 13, 19, 23, 26, 30, 36, 37, 87, 91, and 98 cars. It's pretty bad when teams that are locked in begin doing S&P's, though that was expected for this race. The undoing of the exemption rule can't come soon enough, if it does happen. 59. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Future predictions. stats for 2029 Total wins Jimmie Johnson--225(16 Title's:2006-2010,2012-2016,2018-2022,2029) Richard Petty--200 David Pearson--105 Kyle Busch--98(No title's) Jeff Gordon--86 Bobby Allison--85 Darrell Waltrip--84 Cale Yarborough--83 Dale Earnhardt--77(they detract the last lap from the 1990 500 in 2024) Tony Stewart--65 60. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior doesn't get to break his tie for the record #(21)of lead lap finishes with Jeff Gordon today. Good. Gordon had 21 straight Top 7's with an average finish of 1.95 in that run. ^^ Beat that Johnson. 61. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did Dale Jr do a start and park :P 62. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What % of caution flags for accidents this year has the 51 been involved in? 63. joey2448 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty just said, "That 3M Ford Fusion is flat flyin'!" I love Rusty-isms. The color of Kurt Busch's car today reminds me of the paint scheme that Robby Gordon ran at Sonoma in 2003, which was a Charlie's Angels scheme, I believe. It's also the same color Kurt ran in the Nationwide race at Daytona last month. 64. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hahahahahahaha!! 65. Schroeder51 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I actually going to be proven wrong today? 66. joey2448 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AAAHHHH!!! Crash! I hate to say it, but I'm looking at the radar, and the track is about to get hit hard with rain... 67. Mr X posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thats a serious factor we've ommited from this Jeff vs Jimmie argument, Jeff is slightly less mistake prone. 68. joey2448 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boy wouldn't that be something if the rain hits and the race is called with Jeff Gordon in the lead? And it happened because of Jimmie Johnson overdriving turn one on the restart and wrecking the Roush duo of Kenseth and Biffle (and Hamlin)? 69. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With Gordon's luck this year, it is fitting if he gets a win like this. And he will. Raining like hell now. 70. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Jeff for BREAKING THE TIE with Bobby Allison for career wins (kiss my ass France family). 71. LordLowe posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For Jeff Gordon this really isn't a win this is more like a Half-win 72. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Given how wacky and screwy Jeff Gordon's season has been, a rain-shortened win seems appropriate. 73. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why did I change my picks?! Go rain go. Meteorology major here says Jeff's the winner. One hour of rain with 2.5 hours+ to dry means 8:15 the earlierst = too dark to race. 74. Schroeder51 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They really think they have a realistic chance of going back to green? 75. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) is this a record 6th win at Pocono? 76. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the greatest victory i've ever seen!! 77. Schroeder51 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, it is. Good grief, that's some of the ugliest weather I've ever seen at a race track. 78. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Screw cjs and Schroeder :P Dang! Yay! Dang! Yay! Dang! Yay! Yay!- Jeff won! Dang!- I had Jeff as the winner and switched him with Jimmie at 12:45 today. 79. Bronco posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Official. The win puts Jeff in the chase now. Doubt Newman and Busch will be able to win again or pass him in points. 80. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson throws away a win to Gordon and gives Jr. back the points lead by crashing both the Ford. Jeff Gordon's 4th career rain win! 81. Schroeder51 posted: 08.05.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I never claimed to be an expert, did I? 82. Smiff_99 posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I totally jinxed Johnson.....YESSUH! lol 83. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I eat crow again, as Jeff Gordon gets perhaps the luckiest win I've seen a driver get in a Cup race in many years. The chain of events that led to his win, a record sixth at Pocono, started with Mark Martin having to pit from sixth place because he was low on fuel. That moved Gordon from seventh to sixth. Then on the restart, he got pushed by Martin Truex, Jr. That pushed him ahead of Kahne. Then the drivers on the inside of each of the first two rows get loose, allowing the seas to part for Gordon, Kahne, Truex, and Tony Stewart. And of course, we can't forget about the decision to shorten the races from 500 to 400 miles. That allowed the race today to be called at 98 laps. Until this year, that could not have happened, since the race would have had to get to 100 laps for it to become official. Gordon won this race probably the only way he could have, but it counts just the same, and his 86th win puts him in third undisputedly all-time. 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good Lord, Pocono is under water now. The wildcard battle just went from "who gives a shit?" (Newman? Logano? KyBu? Blah!) to exciting. NASCAR All time win list: Richard Petty 200 David Pearson 105 Jeff Gordon 86 Bobby Allison EIGHTY FIVE!!!!!!! (Bill Jr and Brian can kiss my ass) Darrell Waltrip 84 Cale Yarborough 83 Dale Earnhardt 76 85. Spen posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd consider Logano's 2009 Loudon win far luckier. 86. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey everybody my post #30 was right! Goofy numerology: 86th win 8+6 is 14 and Jimmie Johnson finished 14th and Gordon is 14th in points now and all the day after Gordon turned 41 and Qualified 27th 2 times 7 is 14 and 14 is 41 backwards. and Gordon did match Big E's total of 34 Top 5's from 21st or worst. and Gordon is officially "The King" of Pocono with the most laps led and most wins. 87. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somebody find out if any Jeff's other rain shortened also had this fact: Jeff didn't lead a green flag lap except for the lap the wreck happened on. 88. Bronco posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I'm not mistake, this is the fourth consecutive year where rain has affected the August Pocono race. 2009 - Rain delayed by a day 2010/2011 - Rain interrupted the race, they dried the track and got all 500 miles in 2012 - Rain shorted Time to change dates? 89. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congats to Jeff and the 24 team, that is 2 out of the last 4 Pocono races they've won. "I'd consider Logano's 2009 Loudon win far luckier." I do too, at least Jeff was running well enough in the race to be in position to win had somebody screwed up and lo and behold, JJ sealed that fate for him. 90. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ I got post #86 91. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course the paranoid Johnson fan in my home is blaming the wreck on Jeff and complaining that Jeff spitefully took the win away... Johnson fan's suck. DSFF: BA 85! Yes! Jeff breaks the tie! 92. Spen posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't feel too bad about missing the win, NRF. You still came out of here with 11 points. I, on the other hand, got 3. Actually, you gained points on all of your main competitors. 93. LordLowe posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pocono is turning into the lost city of atlantis 94. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Luckier wins than this one: 1) Newman's Martinsville win this year 2) Derrrike Cope 1990 Daytona 500 (@#$%=&*!!!!!!!) 3) Dave Marcis 1982 Richmond 4) Kyle Petty 1986 Richmond 5) Reut 2009 Coke 600 95. Paul posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess me knocking JG for his lack of aggression last night paid off as he gets win #86 today here at Pocono lol. But if you think about it, its because of that lack of aggression that Gordon has those 86 wins to begin with. Had Jimmie been a little more like Gordon entering turn 1, we'd see team 48 get win #59 today instead. Gordon may not win em all, but he rarely if ever loses a race. After seeing his luck through thr first 20 races, this rain shortened James Buescher-esque win is very fitting. This wildcard race just got interesting. 96. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I shall revel regardless of the predictor cup. I'd happily lose the title if it meant Jeff won some more races. Jeff is now one top 10 from joining the likes of Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, Bobby Allison, Mark Martin, Darrell Waltrip, and few others as drivers to have at least 10 top-10s in 20 straight seasons. 97. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YEAH SON!!!!!!!!! 98. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) More awesome stats: Gordon breaks his tie with Earnhardt for the most Top 2 finishes in the Modern era with his 147th and gets his 200th Top 3 finish. He hadn't had a Top 2 since his last win 31 races ago and hadn't had a Top 3 since last fall's Martinsville race. 99. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Logano's win wasn't luck, it was an executed plan by NASCAR to get the Home Depot car a win. 100. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ funded by the Home Depot and Toyota 101. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Totally off subject here, but if you count Bobby Allison's 85th win, Tiny Lund also won the other two disputed races, too. 102. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ In 1971. 103. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #101 of course they count,Bobby is the only driver in Cup history to win in a Mustang and Tiny's the only to win in a Camaro. 104. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just wanted to make sure that fact didn't get overlooked. 105. joey2448 posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HELL YEA!!! I thought I would see more comments about how bogus the finish was due to the rainout and the wreck on the restart, and how the wrong guy won the race, but y'all seem happy about it, and so am I! AND!...Jeff Gordon now holds the second wild card spot, tied with Newman in the 13th spot, but he gets the tiebreaker, whatever that may be. This race was HUGE in that respect. If JG does make the chase, that would be the craziest thing ever, because Jeff's avg finish this year is 16.5. I saw your post, JG24FanForever, about JG starting 27th, and I thought of Jeff's 2001 Brickyard win, when he started 27th. And NicoRosbergFan, sorry that you switched Johnson with Gordon there, you're one of the first people I thought of when they announced Gordon as the winner haha! 106. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the first time all year Gordon beats all 3 of his teammates, fittingly Kasey Kahne(shopmate)finishes 2nd with a flat tire. 107. 10andJoe posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #37 owner: Larry Gunselman. 108. Anonymous posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith finally gets a top ten in 2012, he had a good car all day. This comes after reports indicate Furniture Row Racing might buy Penske's engine program and switch to Dodge support. Also, the 2nd team rumors are back, and Kurt Busch is the possible option. 109. joey2448 posted: 08.05.2012 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I bet Bon Gordon is pretty happy, he said he was at the track, although he may be waist-deep in water. 110. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ Bon Gordon is probably deliriously happy with how Gordon got the win. Apparently this is Gordon's 6th Rain win,but I only remember 4: this one,Bristol 1996,Pocono 2007,the 600 in 1997. what are the other 2? 111. murb posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. I just finished watching the race (I had to tape the last half of it as I had other stuff to do.) Congrats to Jeff and the 24 guys for finally getting that black cat to piss off. This win really doesn't seem that lucky to me. Jeff was good all day from what I saw. He drove up from 27th, and had a fast car towards the end. He was just in the right place at the right time when the 48 and 17 took each other out. If you want to talk about lucky wins, look at DSFF's list on post 94, and also throw in Logano's New Hampshire fluke in there. 112. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did any body appreciate Johnson's 600 foot power slide? 113. The Final Gear posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice job by Jeff, finally he got some luck today. Speaking of a combination of luck and strategy, props to Kasey Kahne and his crew for managing that flat tire enough to make it around to the finish. Nice top 10's for Ambrose and Smith. 114. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) somebody please make a list of the winningest drivers in Rain races. 115. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Total bogus on the "sixth rain win" for Jeff. He won Atlanta 1998 because they reduced the distance to 221 laps (340.34 miles) for impending rain or the like, and he won Talladega 1996 because of race-shortening DARKNESS. 116. Brad24 posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES!! I'll quote LeBron James relating to Gordon's win today: "It's about damn time!" Great win for Jeff. It's about being in the right place, at the right time. Now it's time to keep the momentum going, lock up the wild card, and carry it into the Chase. I don't say this very often, but thank you Jimmie! 117. startandparkfan posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finally! A win for Gordon! 118. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ Thanks for the info. Massive accidents shortened Talladega. Atlanta ran under Green and was shortened due to the fact that everyone wanted it(except team 24)to end. 119. John posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Larry Gunselman owns the 37 not Rick Ware. 120. ch posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor changes: 19 - Humphrey Smith Racing 38 - Modspace 91 - Humphrey Smith Racing Owner change: 37 - Larry Gunselman Rick Ware had purchased the team, but apparently had an out clause since after DNQing so often, the team transitioned back to Gunselman. 121. DamonHillFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Of course the paranoid Johnson fan in my home is blaming the wreck on Jeff and complaining that Jeff spitefully took the win away... Johnson fan's suck." well that wouldn't be more outrageous than some of the theories I've seen you post about regarding the inner workings of Hendrick Motorsports :) 122. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ you want Hendrick conspiracy? Johnson was ordered to wreck out Kenseth and Biffle(he did save the car after all)and Kasey Kahne was ordered to push Gordon underneath all the spinning cars and the bonus is Johnson did it so June Bug can keep the point lead while creating a race win for J.G. + June was ordered to break his transmission so he wouldn't break Gordon's Lead Lap finishes record. I'm kidding. 123. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bon Gordon has to swim back from the track before he can post. I agree with LordLowe, Pocono is the new Atlantis. Good thing this was the July race, if it were June they might not get it dry for the July race! 124. Spen posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What % of caution flags for accidents this year has the 51 been involved in?" Of the 111 caution flags this season, 46 of them were for debris/competition, so that leaves us with 65 for accidents. The #51 has been involved in 9 cautions this year (all with Kurt), giving them a percentage of 13.85%. For $hit$ and giggles, here's how the race for most cautions involved in is currently going: 1. #51: 9 2. #32: 8 (3 for Sorenson, 3 for Terry and 2 for Kenny. Maybe there's a good reason why Townley couldn't hang on to that car.) #36: 8 4. #18: 7 #78: 7 6. # 5: 6 #10: 6 (4 for Reutimann, 1 for Danica, 1 for Tomy Drissi.) #13: 6 #20: 6 #22: 6 (5 for A.J., 1 for Hornish.) #39: 6 #93: 6 (5 for Kvapil, 1 for Reutimann.) #99: 6 14. # 9: 5 #11: 5 #14: 5 #15: 5 #21: 5 (And he's only run 8 races!) #24: 5 #27: 5 #38: 5 #42: 5 (Not counting the jet dryer.) #43: 5 24. # 1: 4 # 2: 4 #48: 4 #56: 4 28. #16: 3 #17: 3 #29: 3 #47: 3 #83: 3 33. # 6: 2 (In one race.) #23: 2 (1 for Riggs, 1 for Richardson.) #30: 2 #33: 2 (1 for Leicht, 1 for ESad.) #34: 2 #55: 2 (Both for Mikey. Mark has not been involved in a single accident this year.) 39. #26: 1 #31: 1 (This race.) #37: 1 #49: 1 #50: 1 #79: 1 (With Speed.) #88: 1 #98: 1 The #87 is the only full-time team that hasn't had a wreck all year. 125. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well if the rain there keeps up, Jeff Gordon will have the distinction of being the last ever winner at Pocono Raceway. 126. LordLowe posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All 4 of the Hendrick Cars have won a race this year the last time that happened was in 2007 win they won half of the races that season. 127. ch posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nope, 87 wrecked at Dover. It was pretty bad too. 128. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The crash frequency for Kurt is 0.45. 129. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, first this on the 1971 wins controversy. Although NASCAR never has officially given Bobby Alison credit for that win in a Grand American Series car, they finally gave Tiny Lund credit for his two wins in Grand American cars a few years ago, which brought his total up to 5. And Gordon's rain-shortened wins do include the 1997 Coca-Cola 600 and the 1998 season finale at Atlanta, which were delayed immensely by rain, and finished in the dry, but shortened. It can be argued whether or not the 1996 Talladega race, the last run there in the summer, should be considered a rain-shortened victory, or a darkness-shortened victory. Interestingly, Gordon may have become the first driver in modern NASCAR history to win two rain-shortened races at the same track. I'm not sure about that. And DSFF, I forgot about David Reutimann's win at he 2009 Coca-Cola 600, which takes the cake as the all-time fluke win in Cup series history. While Joey Logano's win at Loudon later that same year can be classified as a fluke, it was more because of the timing of a caution for rain than it was for guys wrecking in front of them. And while Derrike Cope won the 1990 Daytona 500 when Earnhardt had a flat tire on the final lap, Cope's car was stronger than anyone else's that day, so he had second place in the bag and moved up when Earnhardt had his problem. You mentioned the 1986 spring race at Richmond when Kyle Petty fluked into that win, but here are a couple of others. One was Richard Petty's 1979 Daytona 500 win, when a half lap in front of him, Donnie Allison and Cale Yarborough wrecked in turn three on the final lap. Petty, Darrell Waltrip, and A,J, Foyt had just crossed the S/F line when that occurred. And it was somewhat ironic that when the four cars in front of him took each other out of the lead battle today, it led to Gordon's 86th career win. That incident in the 1979 Daytona 500 led to Petty 186th career win (the number 86 where it comes to career wins being quite prominent in both cases). The other one where multiple cars crashed was at the end of the 1980 Southern 500 at Darlington, when David Pearson, Dale Earnhardt, and Benny Parsons all crashed in an oil slick in turn one, leading to Terry Labonte's first win. Unfortunately, there have been reports that as many as 10 people were struck by lightning at the end of the race, two of which were critically injured. That's why I say, and will keep saying that any time there's any hint of lightning at an outdor sporting event, it needs to be stoped at that instant, or as soon as possible, because people have been killed at sporting events due to lightning strikes. It happened at Dover in 1983, which overshadowed an otherwise great race between Bobby Allison and Darrell Waltrip, and three or four people were killed by lightning at the 1991 U.S. Open at Hazeltine at Chaska, MN. That incident led to sweeping changes in the PGA's policy toward lightning and dangerous weather. The only other sports league I know of that immediately stops play due to dangerous weather is the NFL, which clears the field and the stands when dangerous weather hit the stadium. Flooding rains are not dangerous at a sporting event, particularly to the spectators, but lightning is dangerous and deadly. Let's hope there were no fatalities from this event. 130. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, the listing of cars involved in cautions is, at times, ridiculous. For example, you mention the #21 car being listed in the accident report in five races this year. One of those was at Indy. Trevor didn't wreck in that race. Joey Logano got ever so slightly into him, resulting in him spinning and taking out Matt Kenseth, but Trevor never once lost control of his car, yet is listed in the accident report for that caution. And how do we know those are all for spins and crashes? It could be from blown engines, or something coming off, or out of their car. And we also don't know how more than one listed incident in a single race would count in your total of cars involved in cautions. 131. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, this was Jeff's 200th start on tracks over 2 miles long. 132. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ and 27th win in those 200 starts. and 22nd win on a Speedway 2.5+ and his 15th Flat-Track win(Pocono,Indy,New Hampshire,original Phoenix,Ontario) all records. 133. Spen posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If they're listed as being involved in seperate cautions, they get marked down twice. Regarding the #87's situation, I'm just going by what this site has listed. If they don't list a car as being involved in an accident, it doesn't get listed. 134. SoxFan24 posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AS for the two disputed rain out races. 1996 Talledega and 1998 Atlanta both started late because of rain so technically you could call it "rain shortened" As for post 30, how does crow taste? I mean no harm by saying that either. Everybody is wrong on something haha 135. Dave#38Fan posted: 08.05.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) one of the lightning strike victims has passed away, according to the pocono track president. 136. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember what I mentioned in post #129, regarding the ten people struck by lightning during that severe storm that ended the race? Well unfortnately, one of those that was struck, has died. Now you can see exactly why outdoor sporting events must be stopped immedately, or as soon as possible when there's even a hint of lightning in the area. This is the worst fear for any sports fan, for a non-participant to be killed at the race, no matter the reason. What was a great day for Jeff Gordon and his millions of fans has now turned into a very sad day for the entire sports world. It's bad enough when a participant is badsly injured, or even killed, but when a non-participant is killed, that puts an even bigger pall on the moment. 137. Harvick posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 17 thru 19 move up one spot and Hornish drops to 19th. 138. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X (#67), that's why I often compare Gordon, at this stage of is career, to Al Unser, and not just because each has won four times at Indy on, or near their birthdays. I compare Gordon to Al, Sr. because they each had a habit of running better than their cars should have been capable of, but never making mistakes in the process. How many times when he drove for Roger Penske in the mid-80s (and even for Bobby Hillin, Sr.'s Lonhgorn Racing team prior to that) did we see Al Unser closer to the front in slower cars, yet do so in such a way that you knew he was never going to make a mistake and crash. No matter how things went, Unser always found a way to figure in the race. The same is true regarding Jeff Gordon. Gordon has always seemed to find a way to run in the top 6-10 with slow cars the last five years, and when he's had a fast one, he's comfortably led with it. Now he's even managed to win a race in which he never led a green flag lap. 139. David posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rest in peace anonymous fan. 140. murb posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, that's too bad... 141. JG24FanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to dedicate my final post on this race to the Fan who lost their life today. 142. 10andJoe posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looking at the replays, Stewart was past Keselowski before the caution lights came on. 143. 18fan posted: 08.05.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It appeared that several cars passed Brad before the caution was out. I had him placed 7th or 8th. 144. startandparkfan posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How sad. Our thoughts are with his or her family. How terrible. RIP Fan. On a happier note, I think Gordon may now be in the chase. 145. Rusty posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After everyone has kept counting him out all year, one lucky break and Jeff Gordon is in position to make the Chase. I still am iffy on the Wild Card thing, but it does add a different and exciting element. 146. Anonymous posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR sure seemed to take their time in that final caution before the rain hit. 147. DamonHillFan posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It appeared that several cars passed Brad before the caution was out. I had him placed 7th or 8th." Scoring loops are the reason behind it. 148. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate to hear that. My thoughts and prayers go to that fan's family and friends. That could have been me so easily. I don't know how many sporting events I've been to where thunderstorms popped up. Concerts too. I saw Metallica at the Rockingham Dragstrip in 2000 and it lightninged all night. And Lord knows hw many races I've been to where I had to seek refuge under the metal bleachers. A real shame. I will definitely say a prayer for him tonight. 149. cjs3872 posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were a couple of reason why they took so long on that caution before the rain hit. First, there was that mess in turn one from Hamlin's car. Not only did they have to dry that part of the track with speedy dry, but then they had to blow off the speedy dry. Then there was (and may still be) confusion about what order the cars were running in. NASCAR wanted to make sure they got it right before any potential restart, and if the rains it, which we know they did, what the finishing order would be (and even that was slightly changed hours after the race ended). Remember there was confusion as to where Greg Biffle was running in relation to Joey Logano and Jimmie Johnson, moments before the rain hit. Then they ran two laps under caution when the rain started before the field was brought in. My only complaint was that they didn't call the race immediately when the lightning hit. The race should have been called the instant the lightning hit the track, if not slightly before to allow fans to get out, but NASCAR waited a few minutes, and there's a chance that short delay in calling the race might have cost a life today. 150. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's nice to see people here showing sadness towards the fan who lost their life today. It wasn't a race participant, but it is still just as sad as if it had been one of the drivers or crew members. I sincerely hope the fan rests in peace. 151. Eric posted: 08.05.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) my thoughts and prayers are with those fans who were injured Hope u get better soon and RIP UnKnowned Fan 152. Thomas posted: 08.05.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First off, condolences to the family and friends of the fan that was struck and killed by lighting, and prayers for a speedy recovery go out to the fan still in critical condition. Secondly, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned another miraculous winner thanks to rain yet. Jeff Burton in the 1999 TranSouth Financial 400. Burton and Gordon (who finished 3rd) were both caught up in a wreck coming back to the caution just as the clouds opened up and both would have had to go to the garage for their damage had the race resumed. 153. Eric posted: 08.05.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thought and prays to the families that had love ones that were struck by lightening and the person's family that lost a love one. The Eric on post 151 was not me. It is another Eric or someone who tried to impersonate me. 154. Brad24 posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the fan who passed away today, as well as for the other fans who were injured. 155. Mr X posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thoughts and best wishes to all who were struck by lightning, and to all the friends and relatives of those who were struck, and may the fan who perished rest in peace. It's a very unfortunate event to take place at a NASCAR race. It certainly contributes to what has been a wierd season, however I do think the info is too sparse, and its too early to start blaming NASCAR.(Odd thing for me to say.) 156. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X, the reason I put some of the blame on NASCAR is that with the size of the storm that everyone knew was coming, combined with the time of day, NASCAR should never have stopped the cars on pit road and waited to call the race. Granted, it was not a long wait, but everyone knew that race was never going to be restarted, just because of lack of daylight. Whant NASCAR shold have done was to just put out the checkered flag when they brought to cars down pit road, possibly even displaying the red flag and the checkered flags at the same time, much like what happened at the 1975 Indianapolis 500. Of course, one thing that can never be predicted is exactly where lightning is going to strike. That's just up to fate. But by instantly ending the race, instead of waiting a few minutes as NASCAR did, NASCAR might have been able to avert this tragedy. 157. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My thoughts go out to those injured and the families of the victims from lightning as the race ended. I just can't understand why they didn't end the race 10-15 minutes earlier. ESPN had already sent their camera crews inside once they saw lightning, which is why no pictures were shown when Gordon and Gustafson were being interviewed prior to the race being called. This is certainly a black eye on the sport, not just because a spectator lost their life, but because it could have been avoided. On a side note, Jeff Gordon won today on August 5 from 27th starting position. The only other time he won from 27th starting position came 11 years earlier, on August 5, 2001 at the Brickyard. Also, this is the first time since '06-'07 that Gordon has won in back-to-back seasons. 158. 10andJoe posted: 08.06.2012 - 4:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reportedly the lightning strike victims were located outside the track. So the timing of calling the race may not have changed anything. 159. Scott Bonin posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Instead of playing the blame game, lets just pray for the victims and there families. RIP Race Fan 160. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I'm not even sure the ESPN guys saw the lightning when they brought their camera guys inside for shelter. I believe that what usually happens is that when it's raining it the networks get word that there's lightning in the area, even if it's not at the event, they'll pull their camera guys, as well as the reporters (or at least ask them to take their headsets off) if there's even a hint of lightning in the area. My wishes, of course go to the victims of the strikes and their families. But this event goes down like the 1983 race at Dover and the 1991 U.S. Open golf championship in Chaska, MN, where spectators were killed by lightning. Like I said, any time there lightning in the area at an outdoor sporting event, it needs to be stopped immediately for just this reason. There was an MLB game at Arliington, TX about a month ago where there was a huge lightning strike while the game was going on, and then everyone was pulled from the field. Fortunately in that incident, nothing bad happened, aside from some frayed nerves. But what neds to happen is that for any outdoor event, the sanctioning body for whatever sport it is needs to have someone in contact with the weather bureau, and if there's a hint of lightning, the event needs to be stopped right away and everyone take shelter. The PGA is the best at this, because golf is the most exposed sport to this, but the NFL is pretty good at this, as well. But every sports organization has to start hiring and putting officials at every outdoor event just to monitor the weather, especially in areas of the country prone to thunderstorms (for instance, this may not be needed on the west coast, because places like California are not usually prone to t-storms west of the mountains). 161. Nick posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sucks that a fan died. 9 others were injured & Rodney Childers (#55 crew chief) was in a pretty nasty car accident just outside the race track. He got nailed in the rear by some guy in a Chevy. He is brusied but will be okay. 162. £ posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thoughts and prayers are with the killed an injured by the lightning. However, I do want to prove a point that may help others. In 2009 at the Camping World Truck race at the Milwaukee Mile, it severly stormed on Friday Night and had to move the race to Saturday. The track had a methodical way of clearing the grandstands when the lightning was 10 minutes or so away. I was at the race, and over the PA they were saying that if you couldn't find an enclosed structure that a building at the State Fair would be open for many of the fans. It doesn't sound the case here at Pocono, and sadly you can't blame anyone but Pocono Raceway. RIP 163. JP88 posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow RIP to the fan...I've gone to Pocono races before so I can't fathom how sad I felt when hearing it because that could of been me or anyone else that attends a race. Obviously something will be done to correct this tragedy. On to the race though, its extremely fitting that Gordon gets his win in a rain-shortened race...I just can't believe Johnson was the one who screwed up because you would think it would of been the other way around and Johnson would of gotten the flukey win...maybe that Horseshoe is gone!!! 164. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #162, they could probably do that at Milwuakee because of the sparse crowd. They didn't have to move that many people, though the State Fair probably wouldn't have been a good place, unless in was indoors, so I imagine it was indoors. However, At a Cup race, or any sporting event with a larger crowd, it's much more difficult to move the fans in a hurry like that, because of the sheer numbers. And there's a greater chance of something bad happening when you try to move 80,000 people at once because of the possibility of stampeding. That might have proven to be an even worse result than the lightning strikes could ever have been. For instance, when the earthquake hit just prior to the originally scheduled start for Game 3 of the 1989 World Series, the best thing that happened with about 60,000 people at Candlestick Park in San Francisco, is that almost nobody moved from their seats. Had there been panic on the part of the people there, there could have been many casulaties at the stadium. But because nobody panicked, the stadium actually proved to be the safest place to be at that particular time. So trying to get a mass of 80,000 people out (the estimated attendance was 85,000, which appeared to be accurate) at the same time could have had for more catastrophic consequeces than even lightning ended up causing. And from what I've read in some of the articles, the track did give the fans warning. And if that's the case, they (the fans) have nobody to blame but themselves. A harsh statement? Perhaps, especially in light of what did happen, but true. But this incident, combined with what happened at a Texas Rangers game about a month ago regarding lightning (nobody was hurt in that one, except possibly for some frayed hearts), again shows that all sports governing bodies need to hire people specifically to watch the weather where there are outdoor stadiums and place representatives at every site where thunderstorms are likely to happen. Again, for places like California west of the mountains, this may not be needed, because thunderstorms are rare there, but in areas of the country where thunderstorms are a common occurrence, there needs to be representatives at sites for every outdoor sporting event, so that the participants, officials, and spectators can be given fair warning, so the event can be stopped, and everyone there can be moved to a safe location until the storm passes. 165. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fan was a 41 year-old man, according to ESPN.com. 166. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should also mention that several fans attempted to revive the man by CPR. 167. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't suppose this man's name has been released? I understand that people close to him, the hospital, and/or the media may not want to/can't release his name for sake of privacy, but I personally would like to know his name. Being referred to as a "41-year old man" makes him seem like a statistic, not a person. (Btw, that wasn't a shot at you David. Your post just encouraged me to make mine.) 168. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with you, Paul. I want to know his name too, with all due respect to privacy. 169. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) His name was Brian Zimmerman. He was from Moosic, Pennsylvania, and was a father of two. How tragic. 170. BONN GORDON posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was a good race. Im glad we got a race in. It wasnt the whole race but since Gordon won it I didnt care for sure. He deserved it after all the crap hes gone through and well hes my favorite driver. I dont think ive ever seen it rain so hard in my life. It was like a hurricane. My buddy and I headed to the car when they pulled the cars down pit road after it started to rain. We ran and it took us ten minutes to get to the car and we were soaking wet. We sat in the car for two hours before we even left the parking lot!!! During that time there was this unbelievable flash and boom behind us and Im assuming that was the lighting that injured and killed the spectator. A lot of the people were just walking around drinking beer while the storm was happening. We were like dont be stupid get to your car. 171. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's ironic that the fan (who was in cardiac arrest) was the same age as the race winner. 172. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) R.I.P Brian Zimmerman. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and to his two children. There are 43 cars on the Cup entry list for Watkins Glen. Here are some notes: - J.J. Yeley replaces Reutimann in the #10; no #37 car - Patrick Long will make his Cup debut in the #30, replacing David Stremme - Boris Said in the #32, once again sponsored by HendrickCars.com - Dave Blaney returns to the #36 - Jason Leffler in the #49. The #49 team is back after skipping the last two races; Leffler will make his first Cup start since 2010 - Brian Vickers returns to the #55 - Scott Speed in the #95 - Michael McDowell returns to the #98 173. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, there were 10 cars that had no intention of running the full distance at Pocono. I wonder how many cars will not try to run the full distance at Watkins Glen? By the looks of things, the #10 car may be a start-and-park for this race th J.J. Yeley being the one replacing David Reutimann, and the #36 is probably one, as well, and I don't know about the #13. And we know all eight cars that have to qualify on time are probably S&P's, so that means there could be 11 cars that have no intention of going the distance at Watkins Glen. That's fully one-quarter of the starting field. The one exception to that might be the #30 car, which went the full distance at Indy, finishing on the lead lap, and running competitvely with Ganassi's cars near the end. And with just 43 cars on the entry list, that means nobody goes home. I wonder how many of the S&P teams wil even attempt a qualifying run with nobody going home? Of course, had there been the potential of a short field, NASCAR would have asked teams to bring extra cars so they could get a 43-car field, so they would get the full TV money. 174. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 08.06.2012 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just heard about the fan that was killed. God, it seems like a dark time for motorsports. Anytime a spectator is killed, the entire motorsports world does some type of reeling. My prayers go to Zimmerman's family, that they should have peace in light of the tragedy. Man, last post on the Brickyard 400 post I said asked what would take Gordon out. Apparently nothing. He fricking won a race, almost like payback against Lady Luck after the Martinsville screw-over. Also, I'm amazed at how well the driver-sides of these cars hold out. The way that Kenseth was T-boned right in the door by Hamlin, and still drove away, shocked me. Praise the lord for the COT v2, and all the people who put it together. Kurt crashes...again...d@nm shame. 175. 10andJoe posted: 08.06.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I wonder how many of the S&P teams wil even attempt a qualifying run with nobody going home? All of them, given that before when 43 cars have been entered they all made qualifying runs. 176. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Destroahirismix666, yes it was the reverse situation for Gordon, as this race was handed to him, almost as if decreed by a higher power. Sure he drove from 27th to fifth with only one caution to bunch up the field, but his was still only the third-fastest (or the slowest) of the Hendrick cars at the time of the finish. Just after the last pit stops, Gordon was right behind Kahne, but quickly fell about 1.5 seconds behind him just prior to Kurt Busch's crash, so he was probably only a fifth-place car. But on that final restart, he got pushed by Martin Truex, Jr., which is how he got clear of Kahne and in position to inherit the lead when the first four cars tangled in turn one. Gordon's run proves what I've been saying about his cars all year, especially on the high-speed tracks. He lacks the outright speed to lead, but handles well enough to run in the top 5-8, and that's what put him position to take advantage of what happened on that final restart. He's only led three of 21 races under full racing conditions, and his win came in a race that he never led under green. Even if he makes the Chase, and he probably won't if Ryan Newman or Kyle Busch win another race this year, unless Gordon himself wins at Bristol or Atlanta, where his car's superior handling will help him out, he won't be a real factor for the championship until he gets the speed his teammates have, because he still lacks it. But if he doesn't have any bad luck in the Chase, should he make it, he'll probably be a top-five points contender, maybe even a top three points contender, because of his car's handling, as well as the fact that he just doesn't make errors. The one boon from this win could be a possible injection of confidence into the team. That's the great unknown here. That could help give the cars the speed it currently lacks. In other words, this win could have the reverse effect to what happened at Richmond did to the team. What happened there sucked the life out of the team. This win may put the wind back into their sails. And if Jimmie Johnson's the favorite for the title, which he should be, a confident Jeff Gordon is still the biggest threat to Johnson, unless Tony Stewart returns to early-season form. 177. Spen posted: 08.06.2012 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs: "the stadium actually proved to be the safest place to be at that particular time" Actually, I can think of one place that was even safer. During that earthquake, I somehow wound up being on the same elevator as then congressman Pete Stark. Even if something broke on that elevator, guess who would get first priority for getting dug out? 178. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.06.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In all fairness, that race track is in the middle of the mountains and is famous for out of nowhere storms. Granted we could see the rain coming on the radar, who knew it would be of biblical proportions? And, as Bon mentioned, race fans aren't exactly the smartest when attending races (sorry SmokeFan for stepping on your territory). I am in no way saying Mr Zimmerman was acting irresponsibly, but overall they don't take care of themselves. I can't think of how many super hot races I have been at where most of the fans are sitting there in the sun in 90 degree weather for hours and hours drinking beer the whole time, a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised that hasn't bit us numerous times. So coming up with a contingency plan for race fans can be like pissing into the wind. Overall though, my deepest sympathies go to Mr Zimmerman, his kids, his family, and his friends. We fans are all a giant family, and we just lost a family member. 179. David posted: 08.06.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We fans are all a giant family, and we just lost a family member." A family that quarrels a lot, but a family nonetheless. 180. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, sports fans in general aren't the smartest people. What other group of people would have their shirts off in a blizzard, or in sub-zero temperatures? Or, as you say, dressed up in blisteringly hot temperatures for hours at a time? I hate to make such a blanket comment about sports fans, being I'm one myself, the that's the cold, hard, truth. Just watch a cold weather, or bad weather football game, regardless whether or not it's a college game or the NFL, and just look at how many people there are topless. Certainly, a lot of it has to do with the alcohol that's consumed before, or during the game, but the number of people that don't have shirts on in snowstorms or just brtually cold weather is often not easy to watch. And by the way, even though I don't think so, does anyone here believe that Jeff Gordon's 86th win, putting him third all-time undisputedly, which was the luckiest win he's ever had, sets the Chase field? I don't think he'll make it, but a lot of people think he will with this win, and if that's so, would that set the Chase field. By the way, I do think Gordon will make it all the way to 11th in points by the 26th race, in which case, he'd win any tie-breaker among those with one win, if none of the current drivers below 10th with one win wins agan in the next five races. I'll say this if they seeded drivers according to points position in the top ten, the next five races would be very interesting, considering there's only eight points separatng the top four, and only 15 points separating fifth, represented by Martin Truex, Jr. (how about an MWR car in the top five in points this deep into the season!) and tenth, represented by Clint Bowyer (another MWR car in the top ten). 181. murb posted: 08.06.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, I'm gonna try and lighten the board up a little bit. But once again, thoughts go out to everyone who was affected by this. Anyway, today it was officially announced that Penske Racing will run Roush/Yates engines next year with their return to Ford. This is really gonna be interesting to me. Will Jack try and treat Penske as one of his red headed step child satellite teams? Personally, I don't think Roger will let that happen. But knowing Jack Roush, you know that he has to be irritated that he will have some competition when it comes to who the top dog is at Ford. I really hope this move to Ford isn't a bad move by Penske. I'm a fan of Brad's, and it is great to see a young team like his on the brink of greatness. I just hope this move doesn't affect the 2 team's potential. (And the 22 team for that matter, even though we still don't know who will be in that car.) 182. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I said a couple of weeks ago that Penske's bringing on Ryan Blaney as a development driver was bad news for Parker Kligerman. Well, Brad Keseloswki released Kligerman today, which to me, effectively ends Kligerman's stay at Penske Racing as a development driver. Now I might be wrong about that. I also wonder if the announcement that Penske is going to use Roush/Yates engines (which is a big mistake, if you ask me) may be an indication that Roush may want to push Trevor Bayne (or Chris Buescher, for that matter) into a Penske ride, either in the Nationwide Series, or even in Bayne's case, the #22 Cup car next year. 183. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.06.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A family that quarrels a lot, but a family nonetheless." Exactly, just like a family lol! "What other group of people would have their shirts off in a blizzard, or in sub-zero temperatures?" Green Bay Packers fans! I usually have a zero "bandwagon fan" policy unless it is a team playing a team I hate like dook, the Pats, the Yanks, or dook again (Lehigh rules!). But I often find myself rooting for the Packers cause I have so much respect for their fans. Remember the NFC championship game that Favre choked away at Lambeau when it was -4 outside and they showed those 4 girls in the stands in bikini tops making Troy Aikman say "they make me feel like a wuss!"? I've always found that funny. Irresponsible, but funny. 184. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I think Gordon's win sets the Chase field. Mathematically, it's highly unlikely that any driver in the top 10 will fall out. Also, Kasey Kahne's two wins gives him 11th, and I can't see Newman, Busch, or Logano winning again to take 12th away from Gordon. You've mentioned Gordon's lack of speed a lot this season; well, Ryan Newman has even less speed than Gordon, as he's lucky to have a top 8 run when Gordon has one every week. Kyle Busch has speed, but in order to finish first, he must first finish. He's been struggling to finish races this summer stretch, and it's knocked him from 8th to 15th in the points. And Logano...I'm surprised he has a win in the first place. Other than that win at Pocono in June, he hasn't been a contender for wins. I don't expect another win to happen again, but I think his recent success on road courses will keep him in the hunt this weekend. So long as Gordon can rack up consistent top 5-8 finishes, he should be fine as far as making the Chase. Murb, I think Penske's arrival to Ford and using Roush-Yates engines is even more reason for RPM to leave Ford and go to Dodge, along with Furniture Row Racing. Now, instead of getting the #2 engines, they'll be getting the #3 engines. They're in a better position to change manufacturers than Front Row and the Wood Brothers will never leave Ford, so I can see RPM, who has past ties to DOdge, moving back next season. I've said before that they're the Ford2 team, and staying there would just make them Ford3 (or Ford2 with Roush and Penske Ford1 and Ford1a). Going to Dodge might make them the Dodge1 team. The only way I see them staying at Ford is if they take over Roush's Nationwide team, as RPM has better luck with sponsors than Roush. If Trevor Bayne doesn't get the #22 Cup ride next year, I can see him either driving for Roush or RPM in Nationwide full-time in 2013. 185. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.06.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright folks, here is my personal Holy Grail of old racing footage. If you will skip ahead to the 31 minute mark there is a solid 4 minute feature about the rash of wrecks on the Winston cup circuit and how Dale Earnhardt is "causing" most of them, even though of the wrecks they show, one is of Sterling Marlin cutting across Dale's hood while Dale clearly has a fender under him (ironically the exact opposite situation would lead to Dale's death), another is Richard Petty breaking Geoff Bodine's momentum causing Schrader in the awesome Red Braon Pizza car to wreck Geoff, then they show Geoff trying to put Earnhardt in the wall. then they show Geoff cutting straight across Bill's nose in the famous Winston, then Bill putting Earnhardt into the grass, then finally Dale side swiping Bill, cutting his tire. Accompanying this is many soundbites, mostly from Bodine and a few from Bill whining about Dale, and Dale giving his usual response to these types of incidents, a disarming answer with that makes-me-smile-every-time mischevious grin. Remember the look on his face at Bristol in '99 when he said "I didn;t mean to wreck him, I meant to rattle his cage though"? We get to see that a lot. We also see the RCR crew of the 80's, the Junkyard Dogs, the tougher than hell true badasses that NASCAR is completely void of right now totally owning Bill's crew as they try to confront Dale (watch Ernie Elliott slink off like a little kid who just got scolded by his Dad). And of course there is Geoff himself saying "I have become a hero because I ran into Dale Earnhardt" after a Busch race incident. Ha! You are a hero to nobody except for people like Ryan Newman who think they are way smarter, way better, and way more important than they really are. He then says "I want to be a hero for winning races". That didn't happen. He did win 18 races, or as Dale Earnhardt calls it "my win total from '86-'88". What a maroon. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJvJNHzY0Bs&feature=plcp Oh yeah, one last thing: YOU DAMN SMART MOUTH YANKEE BASTARD, HOW DID IT FEEL BEING DALE'S BITCH FOR 10 SOLID YEARS!!!!!! I feel better now. 186. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But I often find myself rooting for the Packers cause I have so much respect for their fans." As a Viking fan, I can't find myself rooting for the Packers (except for when they beat that damn Steelers team in the Super Bowl), but I will admit that their fans may be the most hardcore fans in all of sports as far as coming to games no matter the weather. The Cleveland Browns' fans coming in second. 187. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.06.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also tip my hat to the Browns fans. Their team has given them nothing since the 1960s when Jim Brown was running up and down the field and beating the crap out of women (as opposed to the 70s, 80s, and 90s when he made crappy movies and beat the crap out of women) and hell, they even left town once! Yet they still show up in that awful Cleveland weather and cheer their boys like hell as they lose 20-6 to a team like the Steelers or Ravens. 188. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, what I was referring to as far as 11th goes is 11th in points, not necessarily the first Wild Card. And yes, Newman has even less speed than Gordon does (so does Tony Stewart, for that matter in recent races). What I meant by a lack of speed on the high-speed tracks in Gordon's case was the lack of speed to be able to lead races, not run competitively in them. He's plenty fast enough to run competitively. Also, Gordon's win may have knocked Carl Edwards out of the hunt, unless Gordon falls out of a race, because Edwards would now need to win twice to get in because, if Gordon gets to 11th in points, which is a great possibility, he'll have the tie-breaker should nobody other than Kahne outside the top ten record multiple wins prior to the beginning of the Chase. But I think Kyle Busch is going to win one of the short track races (don't yet know which one), and might even win at Watkins Glen. And let's not forget that he's the defending champion at Michigan, having won the August race there last year. There may also be some skull duggery at Bristol and/or Richmond involving teammates taking other teammates out to improve others' points postions. For instance, we may see Greg Biffle take out someone like Gordon just to improve Carl Edwards' chances, or Denny Hamlin doing likewise to Gordon or Ryan Newman to improve Kyle Busch's (or Joey Logano's) chances. Let's hope that doesn't happen, but I have a bad feeling. I sincerely hope this doesn't come to pass. A perfect scenario would be for Kahne to win another race and Gordon or Busch winning twice more, thus each posting a total of three wins and clincing the Wild Card spots prior to Richmond, so nobody has to worry about that possibility. Just remember what Richard Childress did at Richmond last year to give Kevin Harvick six extra points over Gordon, and three over everyone else. If a car owner is willing to do something like that (have Paul Menard intentionally bring out a caution to help Harvick win the race) for just three points, just imagine what they may be willing to do to get one of their drivers in the Chase. 189. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or the Bengals, DSFF. And speaking of that, I remember seeing shots of Bengals fans without shirts on during the 1981 AFC Championship Game, which was played in a wind chill of -59 degrees. 190. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seeing that video tells a great story about how racing back in 1987 was so much better than it is today. The thing that separates 2012 from 1987 the most (along with the level of competition) is the emotion that the drivers had. Drivers today want to be friends with everybody, on and off the track. Drivers back then may have been friends off the track (DSFF mentioned Dale was friends with guys like Neil, Terry, Bill and Darrell), but were fierce competitors on the race track and wouldn't take shit from nobody. I like that Dale Earnhardt raced everybody as hard as he could. I like how Bill Elliott and Geoff Bodine didn't like the way Dale raced and tried doing unto him as he did to them. Nowadays, nobody wants to race hard for fear of upsetting someone and losing Twitter followers, and nobody wants to be raced hard for fear of being put out of their comfort zone. Then with the introduction of "boys have at it" in 2010 and 2011, drivers were finally given permission to express themselves for the first time since the Brian France era began. But ever since Kyle Busch's suspension for wrecking Ron Hornaday last November at Texas, nobody wants to press the issue. It's a shame because those two years were the best in NASCAR in a long time, and now we're back to square one. Plus, it doesn't help that the most experienced drivers in the sport (Gordon, Labonte, Burton, Martin) are also some of the least threatening people to wreck because the younger drivers know they can get away with it. So while there's little to no emotion on the track, there's also a lack of respect out there as well because if you can get away with wrecking the most experienced drivers, you can get away with wrecking anyone. 191. murb posted: 08.06.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There's only one Earnhardt out here, and we don't need anymore of them." lol!!! That was cool of you to post that DSFF. I wasn't around in the late 80s, so I always enjoy going back and looking at old races and stuff from then. That reminds me, I also just recently watched Ernie Irvan's apology video from 1991, where he apologizes in the drivers' meeting for causing wrecks. They interview Rusty, DW, and Felix Sabates who gave some pretty comical thoughts on Ernie. But the funniest part is when everyone except for Rusty claps after Ernie gives his heartfelt speech. Rusty just sits there in his pink shirt with a mad look on his face. It's priceless!!! 192. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I agree that some owner could do something as underhanded as helping his driver make the Chase via a wildcard, but unless Carl Edwards can win a race in the next five weeks, I can't see Roush directing traffic. I bring up Roush because between he, SHR, and Gibbs (all of whom have cars just outside the wildcard), he's the only one I can see doing that. But then again, I can't see RCR doing that either, and yet he did. But let's say hypothetically that Carl does win a race before Richmond and is in a tight battle with Gordon (or even Newman or Busch) for the 2nd wildcard, don't forget that Roush can use one of his satellite teams to do his dirty work. Now I can't see the FRM drivers David Ragan or Gilliland doing this as they're both very clean drivers in that they don't wreck people on purpose, I wouldn't be surprised if he got in their team's ear and told them to block or even bump/spin out a rival for Edwards' Chase spot. Also, I can see Busch winning somewhere in the next five weeks, but I just don't think it'll happen because he's lacked consistency in the past few months. Richmond is the only place I can see him winning as he won there in the spring, but he's never won there in the fall. He finished 32nd at Bristol and Michigan earlier this year, finished 17th at Sonoma (the other road course), and other than his win in 2008, hasn't had a lot of success at Atlanta. I can't see Newman winning again as he's been slower than Gordon when it comes to both leading laps and running consistently in the top 10. While Gordon has only lead in three races under normal green flag conditions and 14 total races for 435 laps, Newman has lead in only one race this season, which was at Martinsville, a race that Gordon lead 329 laps before getting wrecked on a late restart. Newman led the final 12 laps in that race and hasn't led since, though he's currently on a four race top 10 streak so he's proving to be consistent as of late. Basically, I see this as Gordon's Chase berth to lose. I wouldn't expect him to contend at the fast Michigan, but he'll be a contender at the remaining pre-Chase races. I'd expect him to lead at Atlanta and Bristol, possibly even winning there should he get the setup right and learn how to race at the "new grooved" Bristol. As long as his early season bad luck doesn't return, I can't see him losing that second wildcard. 193. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish Darrell would be straight forward like that when he announces races these days. It's a shame he chose to be a cartoon character instead. Also, Rusty does look hilarious with his legs crossed and his pink shirt. He looks like he's patiently waiting for his kids to finish soccer practice lol. 194. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I agree that the second Wild Card spot in the Chase appears to be Gordon's to lose, but also remember this. He has Alan Gustafson as his crew chief, and Gustafson's known for making bad strategy calls. Remember what happened at Sonoma earlier this year when he ran Gordon out of fuel in the middle of the race? If that happens again, Gordon's chance to make the Chase may as well be over. And let's not forget what happened in the August race at Michigan in 2009. Mark Martin, who was battling for a spot in the Chase, had a top five car, yet Gustafson's call to try to stretch the fuel, which was one of the worst decisions I've ever seen made by a crew chief, eventually cost Martin a 31st place finish with a top five car. Martin had to slow down to save fuel, yet still didn't come close to getting to the finish. As close as the battle for the last spot in the Chase is, a bad strategy call can be just as bad as a crash, there have ben races this year where Gustafson's made more than one bad call. That's another reason why I still don't think Gordon will make the Chase, even with the luckiest win of his career (which is the biggest reason why I don't like the potential for a "win and you're in" situation as it regards the Chase). I just don't trust Alan Gustafson, and trust just about any of the other crew chiefs that are in this battle for the second Wild Card spot more than I do Gustafson. 195. Spen posted: 08.06.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see Kyle winning in the next five weeks. The road courses haven't been overly kind to him since '08 and he still has never won at Michigan. Bristol's his best hope by far, but the reconfiguration might throw them off a bit. Atlanta's never really been his cup of tea, and that would put him in a "do or die" situation at Richmond. And considering that the last time he was in that posistion, he wound up getting straight-up beaten by Brian freaking Vickers, I'm not expecting great things out of him that week. I do think he'll finally get that second chase-time win this year, though. Possibly at Phoenix again. It'll give him a bit of momentum for an improved 2013. Though I don't see him contending for a title again until 2014. 196. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, so long as pit strategy has no bearing on the outcome of the race, which was the case at Pocono (except for Brad K), then I'd say Gordon is in a great position. But should that not be the case, then all bets are off. I agree, Gustafson is the worst when it comes to strategy. Going with a different tire strategy than everybody else is one thing, but running the car out of fuel with about 30 laps to go is downright unacceptable. Spen, I'd say that Kyle has a chance at winning at The Glen, Bristol, and Richmond. But that lack of consistency during the summer has and will continue to hurt him. He's also shown to collapse under pressure, which led to him missing the Chase in '09 and completely flopping in '08 and '11 when he was the favorite. 197. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What are you talking about, Spen? Kyle Busch won the August race at Michigan last year over Jimmie Johnson. And let's not forget that he dominated the race at Watkins Glen last year, along with Marcos Ambrose, who won it. So I think Kyle has a great chance at getting that second win, if Lady Luck doesn't intervene. But Lady Luck has intervened this year more than in any year I can remember in recent history. And never was that more evident than at Pocono. 198. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 08.06.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We all mostly agree that KC Khane has the first wild-card virtually locked up, right? Good. Actualy, I don't see Gordon holding onto that spot. Despite that fact that 2011-2012 is his first back-to-back win season since 2005-2006, and that it might give him the boost necessary, this win was fully 'lucked' into. I think that either at Bristol, Atlanta, or Richmond he'll get hit by strategy by his crew chief, and it will cost him. AND not to mention that Watkins Glen has pretty much HATED Gordon since what...2007? So who DO I see getting that final wild-card spot? Actually, as strange as it may seem, I think Ryan Newman might be able to do it. If the 39 can get out of the Glen with a top 15 run, and either Gordon or Busch has bad luck their, He might be able to run consistency to the wild-card spot. It will be close, but I honestly think Newman might be able to get that wild-card spot. Kyle is to inconsistent, and I don't think Gordon has good enough luck. Also, I can't see any of the Wild-Card drivers making any headway in the Chase once it starts. Honestly, the only chase-worthy guys that I can see contending for the title would be Johnson, Jr *Shoot me, I said it*, and that's it. Kenseth is putting together good finishes, but unlike Stewart's freak campaign last year, I can't see him holding his team together in the last 5 or so Chase Races. Biffle? No. Mr. Stay in second/third place doesn't have the speed under his car as of late, at least, from what I've seen. However, It's highly likely that there will be a third guy that will pop out of nowhere and give the 488 shop a run for the title. In 07 it was Bowyer. In 2010 it was Harvick. In 2011 it was Stewart, who by freak nature won the championship. Watkins Glen. Oh my god *censored*. Three of the last four years there have shown nothing but terrifying crashes. I'm almost not looking forward to it. After the incident with Eric McLure, and how banged up Ragan/Ruetamen *yes, I know I spelled his name wrong* were after their crash...it's got me worried. 199. murb posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know, I can see Kyle winning at least once in the next five races. I really think that the 18 team has been overshadowed by the 24 team when it comes to bad luck. Because the 18 has had just about as much bad luck as the 24. There are three really good tracks coming up for Kyle (Watkins Glen, Bristol, and Richmond), and two where he has won before (Atlanta, and Michigan where he will be the defending race winner.) So if they can catch a break like Gordon did at Pocono, they've got a good chance. I'm still not gonna count out Gordon. Yes, his crew chief makes blunders with the pit calls more often than not, but ultimately it is still Jeff Gordon behind the wheel. He is one of the most versatile guys of all time. I really would not be surprised if he wins once or even twice more before the Chase. This breakthrough win at Pocono could totally springboard him and his confidence into contention, just like Tony's win at Chicago last year. So I'm still not ruling out the 24 for making the Chase. Newman and Logano have no chance. Plus, they have a rivalry with each other, so they'll probably end up taking each other out at Bristol or Richmond or something by focusing too much on one another. I think Carl Edwards truly is the wild card in this wild card battle (no pun intended, lol). I was really impressed with Carl at Pocono this weekend. Didn't they have some type of minor electrical problem early in the race? (I had other things going on during the day, so I really didn't watch the entire race.) But anyway, I can honestly see them winning a race in these last five. Maybe even this weekend at Watkins Glen. (cjs will probably call me out on this, but I think that Carl is an underrated road racer.) But if not, then I think they still have a shot at the wild card. Especially if Kyle or Gordon have problems in the coming weeks. 200. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Destroyahirismix666, try 2001 for your answer about how long Watkins Glen has seemingly hated Jeff Gordon. Ever since he won that race, thanks mostly to the freak fire that knocked Robby Gordon out of that race, Jeff has had nothing but misfortune at Watkins Glen. For instance, in 2003, he won the pole, but got spun in turn one by Greg Biffle (who may have been trying to help Matt Kenseth out there). Then, after rallying back to the top five, Jeff ran out of fuel on the last lap. The 2007 meltdown is legendary, but since then he hasn't really run well and has been involved in some nasty wrecks at Watkins Glen. And by the way, I'm not entirely convinced that Kahne has that first Wild Card spot locked up. The reason being, he's generally been terrible at Watkins Glen, and isn't that much better at Bristol. If both Kyle Busch and Jeff Gordon get another win (I don't think either Newman or Logano get another win), or if Carl Edwards wins twice, as unlikely as that would be, it's totally conceiveable that Kahne could still miss the Chase, though I'd put the chances of him geting in at about 85-90%, though Jeff Gordon has a better chance of being higher in the points after Richmond than Kahne does. And by the way, I'm a little surprised nobody's mentioned this, but with his win in Sunday's Pennsylvania 500, Jeff Gordon has now won as many races at Pocono since his horrible crash trhere in 2006 as he did prior to that. He had three wins at Pocono at the time of that crash, and has now won there three times since that crash. And Pocono became the fifth track where Gordon has scored at least six wins, the others being Daytona and Talladega, where he also has six wins, and Darlington and Martinsville, where he's bagged seven wins (and could easily have as many as nine at both of those tracks). There are four other tracks were he's won five times (Atlanta, Bristol, Sonoma, and Charlotte). 201. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You guys are right, Rusty's reaction after Ernie's apology was priceless. One thing that should be mentioned, it took a lot of guts and fortitude of Ernie to do that. Of course he didn't truly calm down until 1994 (even his first few races with Yates in '93 was vintage Swervin Irvan, just with better equipment, two dominating wins, two unprovoked wrecks at Dover and Atlanta). But I must say, MMM era Ernie was fun as hell to watch. As far as Darrell's straight laced analysis, yes it was a million times better than the "Boogity" guy. But the fact was he was he was a whiner and a hypocrite. He talked about how dangerous Ernie was, yet on the superspeedways in 1983, he almost killed himself in the Daytona 500 and almost killed Phil Parsons in the Winston 500. He spun out Terry and Dale to win Martinsville in 1987, then whined like a little girl when Rusty turned him in the 1989 Winston. And the only thing that Geoff said that was right is that "there is only Earnhardt out there". Of course he meant to say "there is ALREADY one Earnhardt out there, we don't need another one". But he accidentally got it right. There was only one Earnhardt and it sure as hell wasn't Bodine. The other thing that struck me about that video was the sheer number of legends in the field in fast cars. Bobby Allison dominated before his motor overheated. His son, "bright new star" Davey wound up winning, his 2nd of 19 wins in a little over 6 seasons. Bill and Rusty were in the race with the teams they would get a ton of wins with and win the Winston Cup in the next two seasons respectively. Darrell, despite having a tough year, was just a year and a half removed from his run of 3 of 5 championships with Junior and was in the Tide Ride where he would win 6 races in 1989. Former and future champ Terry was in the field. Tim Richmond would return the next week and win the next two races after winning 7 times in '86. Geoff and Harry Gant, two guys who would have won 30+ races in any other era. Plus future contenders Mark and Ernie were just around the corner 202. cjs3872 posted: 08.06.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, Carl Edwards has never really done well on the road courses in the Cup series, despite his success in the Nationwide Series. Part of the reason for that is that Roush just does not put any emphasis on the road course events, since there are only two of them on the circuit (and none in the Chase). It's for that same reason that Roush puts ve little emphasis on the short tracks, and as a result, Roush usually struggles on the short tracks, particularly Martinsville (which is odd, since Martinsville is the only short track in the Chase). But I do think if he were with a team that actually put any emphasis on the road races, Edwards could be successful. His style of driving, which is to throw the car around, should really suit him well on the road courses, but since his team uses them as throwaway races, he generally struggles. 203. Paul posted: 08.06.2012 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But the fact was he was a whiner and a hypocrite." Old habits die hard, I suppose. Also its hard to like someone who exploits his friend's death to promote himself. Damn, Dale's death changed a lot of things for the worse. "It took a lot of guts and fortitude for Ernie to do that." You got that right. He began to see the way other drivers were looking at him and wanted to earn their respect back. That shows you how much respect Ernie had not just for the sport, but for the entire garage area to make himself vulnerable like that. Now if only the guy in the pink shirt's son could've done that... "Geoff and Harry Gant, two guys who would have won 30+ races in any other era." It goes to show you how hard it was to win in the Earnhardt Era. No offense to Bobby Labonte and Jeff Burton, but if they could win 21 races in the Gordon/Johnson Eras, Bodine and Gant could've easily reached 30 or even 40 wins. Hell, Harry could've won 60 or 70 races had he came to Cup at Gordon's age. 204. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I'm not sure Bodine could have won 30 or more races in any era, as much as he infuriated his competitors. However, it must also be said that he was never with a top-flight team anywhere near it's peak. He built Hendrick Motorsports, along with Harry Hyde, then drove for Junior Johnson when it was well past it's peak, though his best season overall, 1990, came driving for Junior when he was third in the final championship standings. He never came close to that before, or after 1990. And he provided Bud Moore with his best showings since Bobby Allison drove Moore's cars from 1978-'80 (although Ricky Rudd might beg to differ on that). But Bodine was far from championship caliber, and there are two prime examples of that. First, in 1986, the first year Hendrick ran more than one car, Bodine won two races, one of which was the Daytona 500, but Tim Richmond, driving for what was effectively a start-up team, won seven times. Then there's what happened after he left Junior Johnson. Bill Elliott won as much in the first five races of the 1992 season as Bodine did in two full seasons in the same car. Granted, Ford had a big horsepower advantage in 1992, but that's a startling fact that doesn't put Bodine in good standing. On the other hand, Harry Gant is one of those "we'll never know" drivers. Gant didn't become a full-time driver until he was 39, and agewise, he would be a contemporary of Petty, Pearson, Allison, Yarborough, and the others of that generation. Yet he was competitve right up until his retirement in 1994, grabbing the pole for his final race at Bristol, and scored nearly half of his wins after his 50th birthday, four of which came in succession in 1991. If Gant had started a decade earlier, he might have won 40 races and at least one championship. For comparison's sake, Jeff Gordon just scored his 86th win (third all-time) and just celebrated his 41st birthday, yet he's still more than a full year younger than Harry Gant was when he scored his very first win (Martinsville, 1982). 205. Mr X posted: 08.07.2012 - 12:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Calling Jeff Gordon slow all year is the short version, generally when I watch the race I try to get NASCAR.com's live feed, Jeff's car's are much more consistant then the rest of the hendrick cars. As CJS has said Jeff's cars are always very comfortable for him and handle well they just don't have the speed on fresh tire's. Saying that Jeff has really only led 3 races this year I think is a bit unfair aswell, there is a difference between being to slow to lead, and not being in a position to lead. Fontana or Texas, or yesterday even come to mind as races where Jeff was as fast as anyone but due to a lack of cautions and poor starting positions the leaders got away as Jeff fought his way up. One car racing the track is always faster then two or more cars battling each other. Readers here have had it pounded into their heads, with the lack of tire wear, and the lack of disparity in the cars, and the lack of drivers tracks, etc. We all know whats wrong with the racing, and to my eye Jeff Gordon's team just doesn't fit the times. If Jeff was in this situation 2 or 3 years ago, he would be winning and leading left right and center, and probably would be well up in the top 10 in points. However I do think this lack of speed is diminishing quite quickly apparently during qualifying which I didn't watch Jeff was right with JPM's pole lap until he got very loose in turn 2, and who know's he may get more focus as now he is in position to make the chase, aswell as the fact that any loss of focus this year for the 24 team has been due to bad luck, this may be just what the doctor ordered. I wouldn't say Watkins Glen hates Jeff, he has just been invisible there since 2007, but if you remember in 2007 HMS was the dominant team, and Jeff dominated the race but spun himself out late. For me 2012 has a similar trend. HMS is really, really dominant, and only seem to be getting stronger. Jeff may do alright at the Glen. As for MIS, I'm not worried as his last two trips there have resulted in 54 laps led and a pair of 6ths. Bristol is the same story but a bit of a wild card as well. Mind you it's a wild card for everybody. With Jeff's long run consistancy and the fact that strategy will not factor at all in the race at Atlanta, Jeff could win again there I think, and nothing would make me happier, and Jeff is almost always a threat at Richmond where again strategy doesn't play much of a factor. All in all it's Jeff's to lose at this point, but Kyle and Carl are the only ones who scare me. Kyle can potentially win anywhere, I don't see it happening at the Glen, MIS, or AMS, as he seems to be hit or miss at those tracks, and with his current bad luck, and the huge hit he took this week and his inability to perform under pressure, I don't expect much until BMS, which again is a wild card for all drivers. However if wins any race it could be Jeff's undoing, however barring any more bad luck for Gordon or Kyle, which appears to have passed, I don't think Kyle can catch Gordon in points. Carl despite being an underrated road racer will put on a typical Watkins Glen performance I feel, despite running well, and a pole in 2010, he's never really sniffed a win unless you genorously count 2007, and he's never led a lap there either. However starting at MIS who knows, him and Chad may warm up fast, and given that Carl is currently ahead of Gordon, a possible win which could really come anywhere other then the Glen I feel could put him out of Gordon's reach, especially if all the bad luck hasn't passed for Gordon. Newman, and Logano will not make it which also makes me happy. 206. Spen posted: 08.07.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops. I forgot about Kyle's Michigan win last year. My short-term memory isn't all that great. Bodine would have benefited big time from the increased reliability of today's cars. You brought up 1986, where he only won twice compared to Richmond's seven wins, but he also had more poles and lead laps than Tim had that year. If he didn't keep blowing up, crashing and all around wearing his stuff out all year, he'd have been just about even with Tim. If he raced in the 2000's, I think he could have equaled Kurt Busch's achievements with ease. 207. Anonymous posted: 08.07.2012 - 1:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see cjs3872 needs to look at Carl Edwards stats at Watkins Glen by how misinformed he being a poor Road Racer on the cup level. Carl is better at Watkins Glen than he is at Sonoma on the cup level. While Carl is not Jeff Gordon, or Tony Stewart on road Road Courses, he is good at Watkins Glen. Carl has 5 top 10's in 7 Cup Starts there. Carl also had 3 top 5's there in 7 cup starts.Carls worst finishes as Watkins Glen is 19th and 12th. Carl never led a lap at Watkin's Glen, but having an average finish of 8.7 at Watkin's Glen is very good. Carl can gain points based on how good he is at that track. Carl from 2006 to 2010 had finishes of 5,8,9,3, and 5th at Watkins Glen. His 2011 finish there of 12th was worse there since his first cup start there in 2005. If CJS3872 still thinks an average finish of 8.7 at a race track is terrible, then he has different definition of terrible a majority of the population. 208. Paul posted: 08.07.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol Spen, don't worry about it. Honestly, I can't name any winners at Michigan in between Junior's wins there in '08 and this past June. Cjs, had Bodine came to Hendrick in the post-Earnhardt era (at the same age he was when he debuted), and Hendrick was where it was in '95, I think he could have won at least 30 races. The same goes for Terry Labonte. He did an admirable job as Hendrick's pioneer driver, winning seven races in its first six seasons, including its first five wins. Had he joined them 10 years later, I can see him reaching 30 wins. In his six seasons, he finished in the top 10 in points five times, which is what Terry Labonte accomplished in his first six seasons at Hendrick at about the same age as Bodine. Man, I'd love to see how Earnhardt diehards like DSFF would react if a yankee like Bodine managed to win 30-40 races and a championship. It sure would have made their rivalry more interesting. Also cjs, I think one of the problems Gordon is having now is that these cars don't experience tire wear like they used to, what with the harder tire compound and smaller fuel cells. If the tires would wear off, which could happen at Bristol as Bruton Smith said he asked Goodyear to bring a softer tire, then we'd see Gordon lead more races. He may not have great speed, but he's always in position and takes care of his equipment better than any other competitive driver. 209. Paul posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #207, while I agree that Carl is better at road courses than he's given credit for, the fact that he's never led a lap at Watkins Glen may hurt him this week. Without a win, he's already at a disadvantage as far as making the Chase. And being 60 points out of the top 10 means that winning is the only option he has. Not to mention the fact that Roush hasn't had a lot of success on road courses in the Chase Era (outside of McMurray and Edwards), and that Edwards' crew chief situation has only made matters more unstable for him. The only thing he has going for him is his past success at the remaining tracks, as he has 2 wins at Bristol and 3 wins at Atlanta. Granted, he hasn't won at either since 2008, but then again he hasn't won a whole lot since '08 either. 210. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you hit the nail on the head in regards to the fact that the tires don't wear, and how that hurts the veteran drivers, and again I say that's largely due to the fact that they can only go 75-80 miles on a tank of fuel instead of close to 100, and as a result, when the tires begin to show signs of wear, the cars have to pit for fuel, which means an automatic tire change. Tire wear would mean better racing in general because the drivers would have to manage how hard they can run, instead of running all-out all the time. Frankly, the decrease in fuel mileage is a big reason for the long green flag runs because there's less of a chance of a tire failure, which generally happens near the end of a fuel run. But I disagree with you when you said that Bodine would have won more in the "post-Earnhardt era" at Hendrick Motorsports, simply because of his knack of wrecking both himself and others. And I go back to how Tim Richmond in 1986 and Darrell Waltrip fared in 1989 (which I previously forgot to mention) in the same equipment Bodine had those same years, as well as what Bill Elliott did early in 1992 in the very same car Bodine had in 1990-'91. Elliott won as many times in the first five races on 1992 as Bodine did in two years with Junior Johnson. Those two facts alone tell me that Bodine would not have been very successful, even after Earnhardt's era. And Anomymous (#207), I think Carl Edwards IS an underrated road racer. Put him on a team that actually puts some emphasis on those events, and I think he'd do better. After all, as I mentioned before, his driving style should lend itself to road racing, as he likes to throw his car around, and that would seem to fit in perfectly with the road courses, but his team just puts next-to-no emphasis on those races, basically treating them as throwaway races, since there are only two of them on the schedule, with neither of them coming in the Chase. The thing about finishing position in a road course race is that, much like a restrictor plate race, you can run 20th (or worse) all day and finish in the top ten, just by avoiding the inevitible wrecks that happen late in the race, especially if there are restarts late in the race. Being in the right line on the restarts also can be of great help. 211. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to Jayski, Dodge will announce today that they will pull out of NASCAR. What a shame. 212. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like we're back to the farcical 3 manufacturer sport of the 90's. However now we have Chevy, Ford, and Jap-$#!+ instead of Chevy, Ford, and Toyota, but that's another discussion. I wish NASCAR would invite the manufacturers to make half of the noses one way and half another and have 6 manufacturers since the engines are basically spec. 213. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I guess since Ray Evernham left Jeff Gordon to form a Dodge team and aid in their return in 2001, I suppose he can now go back to Hendrick? (joking) 214. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the writing was on the wall ever since Penske decided to leave to rejoin the Ford ranks next year. Perhaps Penske was even told early this year that the head honchos af Fiat (the parent company of Chrysler) did not want to participate in NASCAR any longer. But when Penske made the move from Dodge to Ford, I think everyone knew that Dodge's days in the sport were numbered. Remember that their involvement has been dwindling for a number of years now. And NASCAR is not thought highly of by the European automakers, especially Fiat. Of course, the question is, what happens to Penske's engine department, especially since it was announced by Doug Yates that Penske is going to be using Roush/Yates engines (which as I said before, is a BIG mistake in my opinion). 215. BON GORDON posted: 08.07.2012 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Gordon fan I'm excited that Gordon won and has a chance to make the chase but there are three things that I'm definately worried about: #1. Kyle Busch- He may not have the luck but he's running just as fast if not faster than Gordon. If he gets his luck to change over the next six races he can can pull off a couple wins fairly easily. #2. Watkins Glen- Gordon hasn't earned a Top 5 there since he won back in 2001. His best finish since his win is 9th. He usually runs 12th-22nd he needs to improve how he runs at Watkins Glen. The last really good car Gordon has had was in 2007. The COT just doesn't really suit his driving style there. #3. Bristol- I think Gordon will like that the track surface will be back to the way it used to be where he had so much success. However, it's a wild card race that will have a lot of accidents again and now there are double file restarts. Anyone who restarts on the outside will certainly drop back in the pack, especially towards the end. It's gonna be crazy and Gordon can have a lot go wrong. I'd say Gordon's chances on making the chase are around 50%. A week ago I would have told you his chances were 0% to 10%. He needs everything to go his way over these next 6 races. 216. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Man, I'd love to see how Earnhardt diehards like DSFF would react if a yankee like Bodine managed to win 30-40 races and a championship. It sure would have made their rivalry more interesting." It would definitely push their rivalry to a UNC-dook level. The funny thing about their "rivalry" from an Earnhardt fan's perspective is that Geoff did a lot of whining and Dale did a lot of winning. Even in their on track dust ups, it was always Dale getting the best of Geoff. Even better, Geoff's two biggest achievements in Winston Cup, his 1986 Daytona 500 win and his big surprising hometown win in the 1996 Bud At The Glen, are both better known as "Earnhardt moments" than Bodine wins. In the '86 500, that is best known as one of those "Earnhardt luck" races in the Daytona 500 when, according to legend, he was sitting in prime position for the famous slingshot pass when he ran out of gas. The truth is that wasn't "bad luck" is was a horrible pit decision made by Richard Childress not to pit him for fuel on the last caution. Also, the one who would have benefitted the most from Dale making it on gas was Terry Labonte. Running a distant 3rd, he would have pulled a "Richard Petty in '79" had Dale made it on gas. On the last lap, when Dale went to pass Geoff on the backstretch there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD they would not have wrecked each other. They'd still be pulling yellow sheet metal out of Daytona's wall (or possibly Lake Lloyd) had that happened. It would have made Cale and Donnie in '79 look like a slight fender bender. And of course Geoff's big hometown win, his final win where he broke Mark's 3 race win streak at the Glen, is best known as the "Earnhardt Hurts So Good" race. 11 days after his bone crushing Dega wreck, and 5 days after an emotional Dale had to climb out of his car at Indianapolis as the defending race winner, he went to the high speed winding road course and won the pole. Then, in the race, Dale would not get out of his car, and led 54 of the 90 laps just to make a point as to who the baddest mother*****r out there was. He faded to 6th in the end cause he used his brakes up making that point. And it will forever be Dale's race. Most people nowadays don't even know who actually won that race. "Earnhardt races" that he didn't win: 1986 Daytona 500, 1986 Richmond (two in a row!), 1988 Coke 600 (poor Kyle), 1988 Holly Farms 400, 1989 Holly Farms 400, 1990 Daytona 500, 1993 Bristol Spring race (the three wide pass), 1994 Fall Dover, 1995 Daytona 500, 1995 Bristol Night Race, 1996 Summer Dega, 1996 Brickyard 400, 1996 Bud At The Glen, 1997 Daytona 500, 2000 Pocono, 2000 2nd Pocono (did that flat tire on the last lap "rattle your cage" Jeremy?), every Dale Jr victory. 217. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And of course DSFF, there's the 1993 Daytona 500, in which Earnhardt led more than half the race, only to see the handling on his car deteriorate in the final three laps, which resulted in Dale Jarrett's passing him (with Bodine's help) on the last lap. Truth is that if Jeff Gordon hadn't moved to help Earnhardt, he might have won that race as a rookie, because he might very possibly have drafted by Earnhardt and Jarrett the same way he drafted by Earnhardt and Ernie Irvan in the Busch Clash the following year. Ironically, in that case, Gordon had help from another Bodine, Brett, in making that move. 218. Paul posted: 08.07.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, don't forget the 1990 Holly Farms 400. I believe Dale was leading before the ensuing debacle that led to the other Bodine's only Cup victory. BON GORDON, this weekend at Watkins Glen will be an indicator for how well Gordon and Kyle will do in these next 5 races. Both of them are great road racers and if their luck is gonna change/keep improving, a track that few other drivers run well at is great place to start. Also, Dodge's departure isn't good for RPM or FRR as they'll continue to be buried within their manufacture's ranks. The only thing that could save them is if RPM assumes control of Roush's Nationwide team and FRR sign Kurt Busch to their potential 2nd car, which would be great chemistry-wise as he and Regan are good friends and have worked together in tandem drafts in the past. 219. 10andJoe posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, apparently the AJ Allmendinger situation has cleared a bit: from what's being said, a "friend" (who I'm sure is a friend no more) gave him an "energy supplement" pill at Kentucky that, as it turned out, was Adderall. Oops. ...so instead of "junkie" we can put AJ in the "you dumb jackass" category of people. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you shouldn't pop a random "energy pill" somebody gave you... 220. Paul posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, it sounds like more Bodines meant more problems for Earnhardt lol. In an unrelated story, I was watching that NASCAR Top 10 show earlier on YouTube on the Top 10 Truck Series Moments, and Dave Moody called Todd Bodine the "Dale Earnhardt of the Truck Series." False. Bodine is like his brother if Geoff was more like Rusty Wallace. All he does is birch about other drivers and blame others when he makes bone-headed moves, such as blaming Piquet for not moving down when Bodine cut across his nose. If anything, Ron Hornaday is the Dale Earnhardt of the Truck Series. He has the most wins, championships, races aggressively, and doesn't apologize. Plus he once drove for Dale, so some of that must've rubbed off on him. Now that I think about it, Geoff doesn't seem half-bad when compared to Todd. But I didn't start watching NASCAR until Geoff was past his prime, so everything I hear about him is word-of-mouth, unlike Todd who I've seen on tv the entire time I've followed the sport. 221. Sean posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How differently would we look at Geoff Bodine now if his brother hadn't punted him out of the lead at the inaugural Brickyard and he'd won (as I think he would have)? No, of course I wouldn't say he was as good as Dale Earnhardt, Darrell Waltrip, Tim Richmond, or PROBABLY Bill Elliott (although the one trump card he has over Elliott is that Bodine was much more versatile, capable of winning on short tracks and road courses with much greater frequency usually in worse cars...) But I'm also tired of people hyping the now-overrated Mark Martin and Davey Allison and giving other modern-era non-champions short shrift. Now-overrated - I'm sticking by that. ALL of Davey's rough contemporaries except Earnhardt (Kulwicki, Irvan, Jarrett, Rusty, Bodine, Gant, Rudd, etc...) started out driving garbage for at least 2 seasons before landing decent (and usually not as marquee as the #28) rides. While he was certainly better than Junior, what he has in common with him is that they both got rides much stronger than some of their superior contemporaries from day one due to their family connections (how Larry Pearson didn't and Dale Jarrett didn't for like five seasons is a puzzle...) Actually, Junior has the advantage here, because ALL the modern-day stars had top equipment from day one, while in Davey's day, most of them had a major horsepower handicap to the #28. The fact remains, Davey usually had much stronger equipment than a lot of the guys who were usually around him in points and still only contended for the title once (in a year when Ford destroyed everything else on track). I basically see him as analogous to Bodine (second-tier in an era when Earnhardt and Wallace were maybe the only first-tier drivers), and it drives me crazy when everybody talks about Davey as a 100-time race winner who would have prevented the onslaught of Jeff Gordon while overlooking almost every other non-champion except Mark Martin. I don't think Davey would have won a title if he lived (Irvan was flat out better and his season from the 1993 Southern 500 to the Michigan crash in the #28 was better than any full season Davey posted or would have posted considering how relatively lackluster his first half of '93 was...) and was at best a Martin-level talent. Now Martin. I'm getting REALLY tired of everybody saying he was the best non-champion ever. First off, you HAVE to rate Fireball Roberts, Junior Johnson, and Fred Lorenzen higher considering those guys seldom if ever competed for titles and were much more dominant (they were all considered by many the BEST drivers of their time). Was there ever ANY season where you could really argue Martin was the best (unless you're a big IROC fan and that series was garbage post-1993 or so)? He may have been the 3rd best driver in Cup for a LONG time, but there was NEVER a time when he seemed like THE guy. You could make a strong case that Harry Gant was the best driver in '91, Ernie Irvan was the best driver in '94, Davey Allison was the best driver in '92, Tim Richmond was the best driver in '86, etc... Sure, all of those are debatable, but see my point? Martin's closest thing to a knockout season was 1998, but that makes him look bad because the Fords had a MAJOR advantage that year especially at the start of the season and Gordon still nearly doubled his win total (with an equal if not worse car race-to-race...) For me to take him seriously as the best non-champion there has to be some season where I think he legitimately deserved it. Did he deserve the '90 title over Earnhardt? No. '94? No. If anybody did it would have been Rusty, but he was too inconsistent. '98? Absolutely not. '02? Him finishing second was a farce as all the other finishers in the top six, Marlin, and Kenseth had more impressive seasons. '09? No. While his resurgence surprised me (and caused me to overrate Alan Gustafson) there's no way he deserved it over Johnson and probably didn't deserve second place because of his awful start anyway. Yes, he has a statistical advantage over most of the other non-champions of the modern era, but there's a REASON he hasn't won a title (probably very similar to the reason he managed to blow the 2007 Daytona 500, which he absolutely should have won), and you can't make an excuse that it had to do with a tragic end-to-career (Davey, Irvan, Richmond) OR having questionable rides for considerable portions of his prime (Gant, Rudd, Bodine)... Neil Bonnett who REALLY gets ignored now fits under both. It really lowers Martin in my estimation somewhat. Sure, I'd say he was at least equivalent to most of the drivers I listed here, but for people to say he's overwhelmingly better when his advantage is mainly his career stability (same deal with Jeff Gordon vs. Bobby Allison, for instance...) seems wrong to me. I think THIS is why the Bodine-bashing gets to me. Everybody kisses Davey Allison and Mark Martin's butts (and I love Allison and used to be a big Martin fan but am at this point sick of him) and belittles all the other modern-era non-champions when I don't really think they were significantly better than the other contemporaries I mentioned. Example: every anniversary of Davey and Alan's deaths they seem to get memorialized on every Internet forum where people speculate how many more titles they would have won (my answer = 0. Earnhardt and Gordon would have owned them just like they owned everybody else), but nobody does it for Neil Bonnett. WHY? I think he was just as good given his wins in the awful #75 car. Etc... It seems even more asinine when people try to argue Martin as the best non-champion over Junior Johnson or Fireball Roberts or Fred Lorenzen. They were considered the dominant drivers of their prime. Did anybody consider Martin that? As unlikable as they may be, Kyle Busch or Denny Hamlin NOW have better cases for that (yeah, they're pretty much owned by Johnson and Stewart in exactly the same way most of the drivers I mentioned above including Martin were owned by Earnhardt and Rusty, so I really do see Kyle and Denny as analogous to Martin, though I'm sure most will disagree). Sure, they haven't been as consistent as Martin, but I think they ARE usually (certainly not this year for Kyle) more dominant than Martin was for most of his career, and does consistency even matter when you don't win titles despite driving for a top-line team (and Roush was better in Martin's day than it is now...)? So yeah, count me in the camp that says Bodine could have won 30+ races in different circumstances. cjs and DSFF are comparing him to Earnhardt, Waltrip, Richmond, and Elliott, but isn't that a bit unfair? Those four along with Bobby Allison and Rusty were the best drivers of the decade... It would be (again) like saying Kyle or Denny sucks because they're not as good as Johnson or Stewart, even though they, like Geoff Bodine in his day, MAY be better than some of the weaker champions (the Labonte brothers, Dale Jarrett, Matt Kenseth, and Kurt Busch; although I'd definitely rate Jarrett and Kenseth higher than Kurt or either Labonte, there are several non-champions I would take over either of them...) 222. Sean posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Uh, actually (and though I like neither of them), I definitely think Kurt has/had more talent than Jarrett or Kenseth, but I get why he won't match their statistical profiles now, and his issues are admittedly self-inflicted (though I hate the idea of drivers being fired by sponsor mandate, just as I did when it was Ernie Irvan back in '97), unlike most of the baby boomer drivers in the '80s who just had weak cars... 223. Sean posted: 08.07.2012 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Geoff was past his prime, so everything I hear about him is word-of-mouth, unlike Todd who I've seen on tv the entire time I've followed the sport." EXACTLY. BECAUSE Geoff Bodine and the Bodine family in general made himself/themselves into a standing joke starting with the '94 Brickyard (with Tanya Tucker in Geoff's pit leading to his divorce and the brotherly brawl), nobody takes Geoff's historical career as seriously as they should... Honestly, it hurt Todd's career. People make cracks about how Junior would not be where he is if his name was Dale Smith. I think Todd Bodine would have had a BETTER chance at a higher-level Cup ride (which I think he deserved) if his name had been Todd Smith because nobody took the family seriously at that point. I think Mike Wallace also deserved better rides in Cup than he had and might have gotten them if Kenny hadn't preceded him. Todd Bodine didn't get the rides he deserved in Cup because the family name had been besmirched, so he was stuck driving garbage, so he overdrove 30th place cars and frequently crashed (as opposed to Ernie Irvan, who was overdriving 15th place cars for Morgan-McClure when HE frequently crashed, and in an era you could actually do that and sometimes win, unlike Todd's). It's really a vicious cycle, and yeah, I think he definitely would have won some races in Cup and had a major-team ride (does anyone remember how great he was in the inaugural Texas race subbing for Ricky Craven before crashing?) The Bodine brother who DESERVES to be bashed historically is Brett (my vote for the worst modern-era winner ever...well, it's either him or Greg Sacks or Jimmy Spencer), who managed to be instrumental in the destruction of three teams in a row, two of them legendary (Bud Moore, Kenny Bernstein, Junior Johnson...) I think all three of those teams would have lasted a bit longer with a competent driver (i.e. not him). And his negative influence as a NASCAR official is even more far-reaching... Don't bash Todd. He never really had a chance. Although Geoff became a joke in later years (especially with his name change to Geoffrey after no longer being relevant), I really don't think he was from 1984-1996 (certainly not better than Earnhardt, but who was?) except maybe 1994 when he was something of a Mayfieldesque loose cannon (I'm thinking Mayfield in 2000-01, not in the meth years...) BRETT is the driver who had tons of chances he did not deserve who ruined it for Todd later... 224. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when you mention that Neil Bonnett won races in that "awful 75 car", which stint are you talking about, because he won in both of his stints with that team. He won the 1983 World 600 in the #75 car, then won twice in 1988 with that team in his second tour of duty in the #75 car. And that #75 car wasn't as bad as you say it was, anyway. Morgan Shepherd was very competitve in it in his two stints with the team, though he never won in it, Todd Bodine had his best finishes in the Cup series with that team, and might have had the best car in the 1994 Daytona 500, along with Ernie Irvan. Sure they fell on hard times at the end, but they were competitve for quite a spell, but Bonnett was the only driver to win in that car. Lake Speed and Joe Ruttman also contended for wins in the #75 car, especially in the Daytona 500. And you talk about Brett Bodine causing Kenny Bernstein's team to go under. That's not true, either. It's true Bodine won only once, at North Wilkesboro in 1990 (that team's only win on an oval), but he was in contention for numerous other wins, but always fell just short. The two most famous examples being the fall race at Martinsville in 1991, made legendary by Harry Gant's amazing comeback. But Brett Bodine was the guy that Harry ultimately had to beat that day. And there's the inaugural Brickyard 400, where Bernstein's experience at Indy was a big benefit to the team. Bodine wound up finishing second, but if that race had been two more laps, with Jeff Gordon's car losing oil and slowing down, Bodine might very well have been the winner. What caused Kenny Bernstein's team to go under was the disaster that was Steve Kinser's attempt at NASCAR in that car in 1995. That's what caused Bernstein's team to go under. And I'm not sure you can call Jimmy Spencer the worst driver ever to win a race in the modern era, simply because he won twice. He had numerous other chances to win races, but something always happened. He had great chances to win more than once for Travis Carter in the early 90s, but was foiled by mechanical failure, and in his second stint with Carter, he nearly won the 1999 Bristol night race, finishing second. Then at Bristol in 2002, he was muscled out of the way by Kurt Busch, so he had chances. I'd say the worst modern-era winner was Greg Sacks, because he rarely ever contended for a win after his 1985 Firecracker 400 win. Of course, there's a possibility that last year' first-time winners, none of whom have yet won again, and two of whom, Trevor Bayne and Regan Smith, don't have a snowball's chance in you know where of contending again any time soon, unless it's at a plate race. 225. murb posted: 08.07.2012 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's such a shame about Dodge leaving the sport at the end of this year, but I can't say I'm surprised. I just hope that we get a new manufacturer by 2014. The sport seems way healthier and way more exciting when there are more manufacturers in it. Anyone remember the Truck race at Homestead back in 2003? Obviously, that race is remembered for the whole championship debacle that went on, but a lot of people forget that the late great Bobby Hamilton won that race. In victory lane, Bobby, who was obviously a diehard Dodge guy during his Truck days, actually thanked Ford in victory lane for sponsoring the race and being apart of the series. He also went on to say that the manufacturers are extremely important driving forces behind the sport, and that we need as many as possible. So again, I really hope we'll see a new manufacturer in Nascar in a couple of years. I don't know what the odds are of that happening with the economy and all of that, but I'm definitely hoping. 226. Sean posted: 08.07.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I was talking more about the second stint in the #75, but I was talking about the RahMoc team in general. I wish there were still teams like that competitive now, but when I called them awful, I intended it as a comparison to the teams that the other drivers with similar win totals drove for (Gant was the only major driver who had as weak equipment as Bonnett, while Bodine, Irvan, Richmond, Davey, Rudd, etc... all generally had stronger rides). Right, even Gant and Bonnett's cars were above average, but FAR below average in comparison to most of the other 10+ winners, which was my real point in that argument. As for the Kenny Bernstein team, I insist they were competitive when Brett Bodine entered the car and no longer competitive by the time he left. Hiring irrelevant and the 2nd at Indy was a fluke (and a disgraceful performance anyway since he wrecked his brother, who could have won). There have been tons of fluky 2nd place finishers at Indy in the 500 even (Kevin Cogan, Christian Fittipaldi, Vitor Meira, J.R. Hildebrand, etc...) so I'm not sure hyping Brett's performance in the inaugural Brickyard means much. He would have been 4th had Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan finished the race without problems, and that's even less impressive. The reason I rate Brett so poorly is that he entered three cars in a row that had won and finished in the top ten in points the previous season and gradually turned them to 25th place teams, unlike most other drivers who didn't win often because they didn't have the equipment to do so. Even Michael Waltrip's record in that regard is not as bad... Let's not forget that Brett's only Cup win was due to a scoring error. I'll give you a bit of a point that he managed to be competitive on short tracks a couple more seasons. As for Jimmy Spencer, his anomalous Bristol record is good, but I can't take him seriously as a 2-time winner when his two plate wins were cheated (just like Greg Sacks's 1985 Daytona win...) Spencer didn't have many noteworthy rides to be sure but nonetheless he had a 15-year career (much longer than he deserved) solely on the basis of riding two cheated plate wins a long, long way. I picked those three for a reason. Not only were they generally lackluster (although yes, I will admit Spencer and B. Bodine had a few good runs besides their farcical wins, but so did every other winner!) but their wins themselves were not legitimate in the first place. At least Trevor Bayne and Regan Smith were not cheating and won for arguably weaker teams than even Spencer and Brett did... 227. Sean posted: 08.07.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hiring irrelevant" Apparently I lost a clause here. I said something like, "Hiring Kinser was a mistake, but I insist the team was already irrelevant"... 228. Spen posted: 08.07.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean: If Todd had been given the same chances as Jimmy Spencer, their career stats would probably look quite similar. A good amount of lead laps, a couple of random wins, and a *lot* of wrecked racecars and spats with other drivers. And while I agree that as a driver, Todd's better than Brett, but his tendancy to blame everyone else for his own mistakes makes him a difficult driver to warm up to. Neil Bonnett probably gets overlooked a lot due to the cars he drove. Taking over from David freaking Pearson at the Wood Brothers makes his impressive results there look far less impressive. And his three-year stint as DW's across the river 'teammate' makes him look decent at best as well. And Geoff's kind of in the same boat. Underwhelming results with Hendrick, good but not great with Junior Johnson, and highly inconsistent with Moore and later with what used to be Kulwicki's team. And the unintentional comedy of the latter part of his career makes things worse. Larry Pearson didn't get a top level ride because he wanted to drive for his dad's team. And he wiffed it so badly that he never really got another shot at it. He preffered the Busch series, anyway. Jarrett's early career woes stemmed from his Busch career, where he'd been running full-time since 1979, and had only one win to show for it (in '86, a year where Brett Bodine was runner-up for the championship. Yeah, not very impressive.). So when he finally got his big break into Cup, we already thought he wasn't very good, so he got relegated to a junk ride with Freedlander. Then, mostly thanks to his last name, he got what was supposed to be a golden ticket as Cale's successor. That turned out to be more of a tin ticket, but we didn't know at the time just how bad Cale would be at the owner side of things. After winning the not-so coveted FLOPPER award in back to back years (FLOPPER is a DSFFism which stands for "Finished Lowest in Overall Points while Participating in Every Race".), he was actually quite lucky to land a high-profile (if not high result) ride with the Wood Brothers. Then he got the Michigan win, and the rest was history. But the point is, he did coast by a bit on his last name, he just coasted to the wrong places. Now as for the worst driver with a win debate, I can't in good conscience give it to Spencer, as he tended to get better results out of his cars than he should have (Ganassi aside...), plus being competitive on all the short tracks indicates a fair amount of talent. He wasted a lot of it by being a bit of a douchebag, but he still definitely had talent. Brett's an easier arguement, but his underperformence with the #26 wasn't near as bad as his runs in the #15 and the #11, and at least he did run fairly well on the short tracks. Sacks is probably the winner among the drivers you listed, as he consistently sucked for pretty much every team he ever drove for, wrecked an absurd amount of cars, and only won that race thanks to an illegal engine. What about Casey Mears, though? One flukey fuel milage win in a year that Hendrick won half the races doesn't look very good on his career resume. And the fact that the only time he was ever the top performer at any multi-car team he drove for was in 2006, when his teammates were rookies Reed Sorenson and David Stremme, makes him look even worse. Getting fewer top tens in your rookie year than Jason Leffler did in the same car kinda sucks too. A similar case could be made for David Ragan. If it weren't for his Dover win, I'd have to give Derrike Cope consideration as well. His ability to translate one good day twenty plus years ago into constant ride offers is quite remarkable, though. Donald Thomas wasn't actually driving the car when he got his only win, and he never really seriously contended much while driving as the teammate of the top driver in NASCAR. But he was pretty darn young, so we could cut him some slack. I might also bring up Earl Balmer, who managed to consistently land part-time rides with major teams, despite rarely being a contender in any way (usually more of a wrecking ball, really), and for his only win coming in a Daytona qualifying race. Johnny Rutherford also has only a qualifier win, but he's Johnny freaking Rutherford, so we'll cut him some slack. And of course, there's Michael Waltrip. But we've gone over that one ad nauseum. 229. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well there is Marvin Burke. But he is undefeated. 230. Spen posted: 08.07.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only is he undefeated, he totally kicked everyone's @$$ in that race. And since the 'everyone' list included Fonty Flock and Marvin Panch, that's a pretty impressive win. Of course, if you want to play the "who did you beat" game, than the least impressive win in history would be Jack White's win at Hamburg in 1949. Counting White, the field for that race had a combined win total of three. He did beat future champion Bill Rexford (who was 21 and making his second career start), and future one-time winner Frankie Schnieder, and that's about it. The only 'name' driver from 1949 to enter the race was Glenn Dunnaway, who fell out after halfway. 231. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Sean, as I stated, Brett Bodine's strong performance at the inaugural Brickyard 400 had a lot to do with the experience that Kenny Bernstein had there with his IndyCar team, so his team was ahead of most of their competitors in terms of how to set the car up, and it showed. It's also irnoic that Brett Bodine twice succeeded Ricky Rudd, first at Bud Moore Engineering in 1988, then with Kenny Bernstein's team in 1990. And while there was a scoring snafu in that race that Brett won (there was a point during that long caution that Brett was shown a lap ahead of the field), remember that Ricky Rudd had nearly won the previous two fall races there in the same car, so it was hardly a fluke win. Another driver that could be mentioned in the "worst driver to win a Cup race" conversation is Phil Parsons, who scored his only Cup win in the 1988 Winston 500 over Bobby Allison and Geoff Bodine. Bobby Hillin, Jr. could also be in this debate from his only win, also at Talladega, though Hillin gets somewhat of a pass because his win was done without restrictor plates. And you also mentioned about there being quite a number of fluke second places at Indy, and you mentioned Kevni Cogan's name in that. I hardly think that was a fluke second place finish considering that he was driving for Pat Patrick, and previously had finishes of fourth and fifth in previous years. In fact, if not for a late caution, Cogan would have won that race, and he twice passed Rick Mears on the outside in that race, something that Mears learned from to win the Indianapolis 500 in 1991. And Spen, I would hardly call Neil Bonnett's time in the Wood Brothers car not very impressive. After all, he won nine races in less than four years, and remember that they were still not running the ful season. And except for the Daytona 500, Bonnett won most of the sport's biggest races for the Woods, including the Firecracker 400 in 1979, the Talladega 500 in 1980 (which Pearson never won), the Southern 500 in 1981, and the World 600 in 1982. And by that time, the Wood Brothers were falling behind, largely due to not running the full season, as well as their association with Ford, which actually makes Bonnett's nine wins for the Wood Brothers more impressive. In fact, since Bonnett left after the 1982 season, the Wood Brothers have won seven races and only Kyle Petty has won twice for them. 232. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FLOPPER (got a chuckle out of that) award since 1990: 1990: Richard Petty (aaaahhh!!!!) 1991: Rick Wilson 1992: Dave Marcis 1993: Bobby Hillin Jr. 1994: Greg Sacks 1995: Robert Pressley 1996: Darrell Waltrip 1997: Sterling Marlin 1998: Kyle Petty 1999: Jerry Nadeau 2000: Bobby Hamilton 2001: Brett Bodine 2002: Mike Skinner 2003: Casey Mears 2004: Ken Schrader 2005: Scott Riggs 2006: Sterling Marlin 2007: David Gilliland 2008: Robby Gordon 2009: Paul Menard 2010: Bobby Labonte 2011: David Gilliland (Joe Nemechek was not running for points) 233. Talon64 posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For anyone iffy on the wild card spots, last year's wild card spots went to the drivers who were 11th and 12th in points, Keselowski and Hamlin. As things stand right now, 11th and 13th in points would get in and I like Gordon's chances of being at least 12th by the time the Chase hits and hopefully getting another win to secure his spot. From 2007-10, it was 1st-12th in points who got in. So really, nothing's changed as far as who's getting in. 234. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. A lot to go over. I'll start with Davey. Yes his first full time ride was the potent (but initially inconsistent) #28 car, but that wasn't given to him just cause his name was Allison. He had proven himself in a few scattered starts, debuting with a Top 10 in Hoss Ellington's car at Talladega (not a top ride) then substituted for an injured Neil Bonnett in Junior Johnson's second car (never as good as the #11) in the same race one year later and finished Top 5. And yeah Bobby drove for Harry Ranier, the original owner of the #28 team for a season in 1981, but left immediately after losing the title to Junior and Darrell in a horrific collapse. Waddell was the one Bobby didn't get along with, and he has never spoken ill towards Harry, but I can't help but feel there had to be some hard feelings there. There usually was with Bobby lol. And speaking of Bobby, he made sure Davey didn't have it easy in his path to racing. He made him learn the car inside out before letting fix up one of his old, used up AMC car from long ago to get started with on the short tracks. So Davey earned everything he got. We also can't forget that, although that #28 car was fast, it was very inconsistent until 1992. There were all sorts of financial problems until Robert Yates bought the team, which he had to go into debt to do. Then they battled organizational issues until Larry Mac showed up and got everyone rowing in the same direction a few races into 1991. That year he finished 3rd in the worst points battle ever. And then, after 5 years of trying to get everything ironed out, it finally came together in 1992 only for Davey to be hit with a rash of hard licks and injuries, culminating with his horrible Pocono flip for which Davey was clearly not the same after. Otherwise he runs off and hides with the 1992 Winston Cup. Then considering Yates' strength from '96-'01, who knows how many championships Davey would have won then. 1999 we can pencil in with absolute certainty. DJ is underrated, but nowhere close to Davey, and him and Larry Mac had as good of chemistry as DJ and Todd Parrott. I think 1996 would have been his too. Seeing as how DJ fiished 3rd in the first year with his new team, and Ernie finished 10th, winning twice despite being about 60% of what he was before his near fatal '94 Michigan wreck. I also think he would have pounced in 1997. DJ lost to Gordon by 14 points. I think Davey would have done 15 points or more better than DJ that season. No, we will never know for sure. But you can hardly discount Davey. He was truly awesome, earned his spot, and won a high number of races in NASCAR's most loaded era. 235. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for the others. First off, as far as guys like Fireball, Junior, and Lorenzen, you have to remember they raced in an era where the Grand National championship was almost an afterthought. Winning races meant much more and was much more lucrative. So it isn't like they really tried to be champions and never got it done. I somewhat agree about Mark. His problem is the same one that has plagued the championship-less Jeff Burton and should-be-multi-time-champ Matt Kenseth, both frivers he mentored. He is too damn nice on the track. And others have happily explioted that (Earnhardt, Gordon, Johnson). He is a good driver, very versatile, and extremely consistent. But he never had any bite. I feel like he has held himself back. As has Burton and Kenseth. Although has shown occasional bite, admittingly dumping people like Harvick, McMurray, and Vickers. But had JJ done what he did to Kenseth in this race to Rusty Wallace, he would have to spend the rest of the year looking over his shoulder. Neil Bonnett does deserve to be in this category. His problem is he got injured too much and had overall consistency issues. Also, his lack of productivity in the Junior Johnson #12 car has unfairly hurt him historically. People think he was driving the same equipment Darrell was with Junior's #11 car, that they ran that multi car team like they do today. That is false. They were in seperate shops and ran like two single car teams. But his wins in the #75 car were no joke. Of all the years RahMoc competed. he is the only one to win for them, which he did four times, twice in each stint. Now for worst driver ever, it has to be Michael Waltrip. To race for TWENTY FIVE YEARS and still never be worth a shit anywhere excpet tracks where you just hold the gas down is pathetic. At tracks like Martinsville, he ALWAYS looked like a rookie. Seems like in that time you would pick SOMETHING up. And the only thing working against Todd Bodine is Todd Bodine. His attitude and lack of racing smarts doomed him in Cup. At least Geoff had the talent to make up for his grating personality. Todd tries to act like Geoff, but comes across like a cheap ripoff. 236. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Neil Bonnett probably gets overlooked a lot due to the cars he drove. Taking over from David freaking Pearson at the Wood Brothers makes his impressive results there look far less impressive." That is an excellent point, and something Austin Dillon needs to think about since he wants to drive the #3 in Cup. Unless he dominates and wins multiple Cup titles (unlikely in RCR equipment) his career will be deemed a disappointment even if he puts up respectable numbers. Neil showed that. As cjs mentioned, Neil did a great job in that #21 car, but he wasn't David Pearson and didn't win double digit races in a partial season like David did in '73 and '76, so it gets discounted unfairly. The same thing will happen to Austin if he drives an RCR #3 car, no matter what it looks like. And not to mention the fact it is HIGHLY unlikely his personality will come close to capturing our imaginations the way Dale's did. No cowboy hat in the world will cover that up. He is talented, but is bland on and off the track, and his attempts to show personality (those hats, the grass slide) come across as lame and forced. One last thing, I didn't invent the FLOPPER award. I wish I did because it is both funny and a good picture of who is just taking up space out there, but I didn't. 237. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2010: Bobby Labonte" The same guy Dale Earnhardt finished 2nd to in points in his final season just 10 years earlier. I'm gonna go throw up now. 238. Talon64 posted: 08.07.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon picks up his 86th career Sprint Cup Series victory, his first win of 2012 and best-all-time 6th Cup win at Pocono. After having just 1 top 5 and 2 top 10's in the first 11 races of the season, Gordon has 3 top 5's and 7 top 10's in the last 10 races to score the most points of anyone over that stretch (8.0 avg fin). Gordon won his first Pocono race back in 1996, and his 6 wins span 34 races (including 2 in the last 4 and 3 in the last 12). His 18 Pocono top 5's are tied with Darlington and Michigan for his 2nd most at any track, and his 28 top 10's are 2nd. Although Hendrick Motorsports now has the most wins of any team this season with 7, Kasey Kahne's runner-up finish gives them their first 1-2 finish of 2012. It's Kahne's 17th career runner-up finish, tying him with Geoffrey Bodine (go figure) and Sterling Marlin for 46th all time, and his 3rd top 2 finish of the season. After sitting 31st in points through 6 races, Kasey Kahne is up to a season-high 11th in points. It's Kahne's 4th top 5 in 18 career Pocono starts, but just his 6th top 10 (16.8 avg fin) and first in 6 races. Martin Truex Jr. picks up his first top 5 finish in the last 10 races, and just his 4th top 10 over that stretch as well. But for the first time since his previous top 5, a 5th at Darlington, Truex Jr. has cracked the top 5 in points. It's Truex Jr.'s 2nd top 5 in 14 Pocono starts and first in the last 11. But he has 3 top 10's in the last 5 races and 5 overall (14.8 avg fin). Brad Keselowski extends his season-high top 10 streak to 5 straight (1 win, 3 top 5's, 5.4 avg fin), just one off of his career high of 6 straight that he set last season. It's his 2nd top 5 in 6 career Pocono starts (14.5 avg fin), but both have come the last two years in this race. Tony Stewart equals his top 5's from 2011 and 2010 with his 9th of the season, meaning he'll all but likely crack 10 for the first time since 2009 (10+ in each of his first 11 seasons). But it's his first top 5 of 2012 that isn't in the top 3. Pocono becomes the first track that Tony Stewart's had 20 top 10's at, tied with Darrell Waltrip for 7th all time, in just 28 starts (2 wins, 11 top 5's, 11.3 avg fin). It's his 6th top 5 and 7th top 10 in the last 9 races there (6.4 avg fin). Ryan Newman picks up his 4th straight top 10 finish (no top 10's in the previous 11 races). Pocono becomes the 6th track that Ryan Newman has 10+ top 10's at (22 starts, 1 win, 7 top 5's, 12.4 avg fin), and he hasn't finished worse than 18th in the last 15 races there (7 top 10's, 10.1 avg fin). Carl Edwards now has 10+ top 10's in all 8 seasons he's competed full time in Cup (.538 top 10 %). But it's just his 2nd top 10 in the last 9 races, during which he's only 17th in points scored (16.6 avg fin). It's just Carl's 3rd top 10 in the last 7 races at Pocono, but his 8th in 16 starts there (13.2 avg fin). Clint Bowyer picks up just his 2nd top 10 in the 5 races since his Sonoma win (14.2 avg fin), but gets his 9th straight finish of 18th or better at Pocono (10.3 avg fin). It's also his 7th top 10 in 14 career Pocono starts (15.1 avg fin). Regan Smith had 4 top 10's through 21 races in 2011, the first 4 top 10's of his career, but had to wait 21 races in 2012 to get his first top 10 of the season. It's his first top 10 in 9 career Pocono starts (20.7 avg fin). Marcos Ambrose gets his first top 10 in the 5 races since his back-to-back poles and top 10 finishes. After collecting 12 top 5's in his first 119 career Cup starts, he's still looking for his first top 5 of 2012 after 21 races. It's his 2nd top 10 in 8 career Pocono starts but his first since his Pocono debut back in 2009 (23.2 avg fin). Sam Hornish Jr. gets his 2nd top 20 finish in 4 starts in the #22 Penske car this season (22.5 avg fin). Juan Pablo Montoya earned his 8th career Sprint Cup Series, his 4th season in a row with a pole (tied for 2nd most with Kasey Kahne over that stretch). But he has to settle for just 20th, his 5th top 20 in the last 12 races (22.6 avg fin). 239. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But I'll say it again DSFF. By the time Neil Bonnett got to the Wood Brothers, they were already starting their decline. The fact that he won nine race in leas than four years was pretty darn good, especially for a team that still did not run the full season. And the fact that they were in decline may be best illustrated by the fact that after Bonnett left after the 1982 season, they have only won seven times, and Kyle Petty is the only driver to win for them twice. Bonnett also didn't suit the typical Wood Brothers driver (nor did his replacement, Buddy Baker). The Wood Brothers have always preferred conservative drivers going all the way back to when Marvin Panch drove for them in the early and mid 60s. Neil Bonnett was anything but conservative. He even admitted that he tore up a lot of race cars by holding he wrong pedal down too long. 240. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Woods blamed David Pearson for his wreck in the 1979 Daytona 500 BECAUSE he was being conservative and running mid-pack. 241. Mr X posted: 08.07.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All I can say regarding Dodge leaving the sport at seasons end is that f**king sucks. Although I do agree with Carl Edwards, I do think the will make a return in the future, and I don't think this hiatus will last as long as the previous one. 242. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Agreed. 243. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.07.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh I agree Neil did an outstanding job for the Wood's. I'm just pointing how hard it is to pick up directly after a legend, and how it will be for Austin if he drives the #3. It may have been 13 years as of his projected full time debut (2013) but he will be the first since Dale. If anything, the amount of time that has gone by will make things worse. At least people who have driven the #43 had the blow softened by many pitiful years by a painfully (for us) fading Richard, which including his FLOPPER award in 1990 (that does hurt to see). 244. 10andJoe posted: 08.07.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon: You forgot to mention that Jason White got his best career Cup finish. (Of course, it's only a two-race sample...) >[Mark Martin] is too damn nice on the track. And others have happily explioted that (Earnhardt, Gordon, Johnson). Also exploiting it: /Joey Logano/ of all people... 245. murb posted: 08.07.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FLOPPER, lol!!!! Any predictions for who will be the 2012 FLOPPER Champion? Right now, it looks as if Landon Cassill is leading the standings. But past champions Casey Mears and David Gilliland are right there with him. So it will be an interesting battle. Seriously though, it is pretty disappointing to see that those guys are all still behind AJ Allmendinger in points, even though they have run four more races than he has. But at the same time, two of their teams (Germain, Front Row) have improved this year. And BK Racing I think has done a great job at taking over Red Bull's team. Especially since they didn't get all of the assets until like three or four weeks before Daytona in February. 246. cjs3872 posted: 08.07.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, what happened with David Pearson in the 1979 Daytona 500 was the textbook case of a driver being too conservative, although they were never really that good that whole SpeedWeeks, and they wound up back in the middle of the pack after their first pit stop, which was uncharacteristically slow, and Pearson just decided to stay back there until the traffic thinned out, which rarely happened that day. Also, he was around other drivers he didn't know much about, so he was undecided as to whether or not to try to pass them and move up, not knowing what they would do, or stay back there and use his pit crew to move up, and it was that indecision that got him into trouble. And Mr X, I don't think Dodge is coming back any time soon. The reason I believe that is that their parent company, Fiat, are not very big fans of NASCAR, and never have been, and they really pull the financial strings from Europe. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that if the same people remain in charge of Fiat, or they don't have a major change of opinion about NASCAR racing, that this may be the last we ever see of Dodge in NASCAR. Remember that when Fiat gained a hold of the Chrysler Corporation a few years ago, that Dodge's involvement in NASCAR started to dwindle, and it's no co-incidence. They just don't like NASCAR in Europe, especially Italy wher Fiat and Ferrari are based, so it's no surprise they let Dodge's NASCAR program dwindle without giving it a lifeline. 247. David posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since everyone liked it so much, here is the second edition of FLOPPER (1972-1989). 1972: Walter Ballard 1973: Walter Ballard 1974: J.D. McDuffie 1975: Walter Ballard 1976: Frank Warren 1977: D.K. Ulrich 1978: Frank Warren 1979: Frank Warren 1980: J.D. McDuffie 1981: Kyle Petty 1982: Lake Speed 1983: Sterling Marlin 1984: Trevor Boys 1985: Jimmy Means 1986: Dave Marcis 1987: Harry Gant (with no less than 21 DNFs) 1988: Dale Jarrett 1989: Dale Jarrett To be fair, only a handful of drivers ran every single race in the early years. 248. Mr X posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is a clever point CJS, and one I wish I thought of, but car companies do change hands periodically and if so Dodge may come back. The thing that makes me curious is that Dodge seems to have more of a performance image then any of the other american car brands. What better place for Dodge to strut their stuff, Dodge has a huge fan following, and a huge fan following in NASCAR. I'm curious how Dodge's NASCAR involvement helps Dodge's sales. With their current image, and customer fan base, I almost think that "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" would hold more water for Dodge then the other brands, being as a Charger SRT8 or even a regular Charger bears more resemblence to a stock car then a Camry, Fusion, or Chevrolet's current outdated embarrassment of what was once America's REAR DRIVE sporty luxury car. With more success NASCAR for Dodge could be quite profitable I think, and given the new 2013 car, and Dodge's current NASCAR engine, the R6P8 which debuted in only 2008, seem like possible tools for success, and from what I have heard some new and smaller teams at other manufacturers were taking interest in being first in line at Dodge. Regardless David #211 said it best, what a damn shame. 249. Mr X posted: 08.07.2012 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HaHa Flopper, another thought I wish I thought of. 250. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 21 DNFs DAMN!!!!!!! They only ran 29 races that year! I have a better finishing % than that on crossword puzzles I start (I have a bad habit of starting those, getting about 5 words out of the first 30 and saying "screw this"). 251. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm gonna go throw up now." Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, but Bobby Labonte's current production is so putrid it makes the equipment he drives in look worse than it is. 252. Spen posted: 08.08.2012 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To give the proper credit, the FLOPPER award was apparently invented by Dale Watermill. DSFF was the one who brought it to our attention though, hence my confusion on the issue. Yeah, Needham's team was pathetic in '87. Off the top of my head, the only non S&P driver to ever get a worse DNF percentage was Buddy Baker in 1964, when he had 26 DNF's in 33 starts. On the Dodge issue, I don't expect to see them back anytime soon. As we saw with Pontiac, four manufacturers just isn't sustainable over the long haul anymore. Someone's gonna end up getting the short end of the stick every week, and end up looking lousy. That's been Dodge since 2008, with the exception of the #2. So I'm really not surprised to see them gone. Dissapointed, but not surprised. 253. Paul posted: 08.08.2012 - 2:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm a Bobby fan, my uncle's a diehard Bobby Labonte fan. It's just mind-blowing to see how a driver can go from one of a weekly contender to someone who's lucky to finish inside the top 20 in just over a decade. I mean, he beat out Earnhardt to win the 2000 Cup championship, and 10 years later he wins the Flopper Award (although to be fair, he's lucky to have been in every race for as many teams that he drove for that season). As far as past champions' primes, Bobby's has to be among the shortest of all time. You could make an argument that his prime lasted from 1995 to 2004; ironically, it began to end right after he won the final race under the Winston Cup banner after Bill Elliott blew a tire coming out of turn 2 at Homestead. He went from being a race contender from '95 to '98, to a championship contender from '99-01, to having a terrible slump in '02, to re-surging in '03, to steadily declining every year from '04 onward. What I will say about Bobby is that he is able to perform well or better than his equipment when his team has stability, no matter the quality of performance. Although he ran marginally well in his first two seasons, the fact that he posted eight top 10s and a pole while driving for Bill Davis speaks volumes in terms of his talent; probably the 2nd best BDR Cup driver after Ward Burton. Then the #18 became available when Dale Jarrett left Gibbs for Yates in '95, and Labonte won three races, each on tracks that are largely dependent on equipment (Coke 600, twice at Michigan). The following season he won the season finale at Atlanta, a race where both Labonte brothers left as winners with Terry winning the title. The next two years he would post wins at Atlanta (twice) and Talladega. Then in '99, he finally won at tracks that are more driver dependent, winning at Dover and sweeping Pocono (along with Michigan and Atlanta), followed by four wins in his championship campaign, including Rockingham, the Brickyard 400, and the Southern 500. Since '00, he's won at just two driver tracks (Pocono and Martinsville), and won at Atlanta twice and Homestead. All but two of his career wins came under Jimmy Makar's tenure(the final two came with Fatback McSwain). I can't explain Bobby's lack of performance in the summer of '02, when he went 15 straight races without a top 10. But having Fatback as his crew chief from the end of '02 to the middle of '04 seemed to rejuvenate his career at Gibbs. Even though he was winless in '04, Bobby was still running well and was 6th in the points with eight races left before the Chase. When Fatback left the post, Bobby lost seven positions and missed the Chase. In 2005, Steve Addington became his 3rd crew chief in about seven months and it was the first year Bobby looked lost on the track as he posted only 7 top 10s and other than his Coke 600 choking (wasn't aggressive enough to hold Jimmie off), wasn't a factor all season and had his worst points finish at that point. His time with Petty Enterprises was ironic because he posted good results in sub-par equipment and even less crew chief stability. He posted 3 top 5s in '06 with Todd Parrott as his crew chief, and still posted top 21 points finishes with three different crew chiefs in the next two seasons. Then 2009 came along, with began a two season stretch in which Bobby had zero stability. He split the season driving for Yates/HOF Racing and the new TRG Motorsports, each of which he managed one top 10 for, including a 5th at Vegas very early in the season. Despite managing a good start to his season (10th in the points after three races), the equipment quickly began to show its wear as Bobby immediately lost 13 positions the next week and was quickly scraping for a top 30 points finish. Then the debacle of the 2010 season emerged, as he drove for four very small teams (TRG, RGM, Phoenix, Stavola-Labonte Racing), posted a career-high 11 DNFs, and posted zero top 10 finishes for the first time in his career. Then going over to JTG Daugherty Racing as they spent the season slowly transitioning away from MWR, and has posted three top 10s in the last year and a half. Surprisingly, he's currently 23rd in the points and is in danger of losing maybe one more position as it currently stands. So that's just a quick run-down of Bobby's Cup career. Most of his wins came when Gibbs brought great equipment to the track, but he was at his absolute best in '99 and '00 when he began winning at the driver tracks like Dover, Darlington, and Pocono. He's past his prime, no doubt about that; but I think he's got enough talent to post solid finishes when the equipment and team behind him are at their game. 254. cjs3872 posted: 08.08.2012 - 2:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, while I consider the Indianapolis Motor Speedway an "oddball" track, because it's the only one of it's kind, it's actually one of the easiest tracks to drive because you're only making half-turns in comparison to the other oval tracks. It's been an easy track to drive since 1972 for IndyCars, because that was the year that bolt-on wings were first allowed, and has always been an easy track to drive in a slower stock car. The fact that Trevor Bayne, among others, say it's a difficult track to drive just shows how inexperienced he is, because he'll learn in time that it's quite possibly, other than the plate tracks, the easiest track to drive on the entire circuit. Racing at IMS is another matter, but it's actually one of the easiest tracks to drive on the circuit, but it's arguably one of the toughest to win at, because it exposes any weakness. And Bobby Labonte's downfall actually started with his first race as series champion, which was the very same race in which Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was killed, the 2001 Daytona 500. Both Labonte brothers were deeply affected by the tragedy, as were Jeff Gordon, Rusty Wallace (who was affected most of all), and Dale Jarrett. Bobby was never the same driver after that, and most of the other veteran drivers lost some fire as well, if not most of it. 255. murb posted: 08.08.2012 - 2:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, it's disappointing to see Bobby so far off each week. I think the whole thing at the beginning of 2009 really kind of started all of this. If I remember correctly, he was supposed to stay in the 43 car for '09. But then that whole Evernham-Petty merger happened, and then he left. And then he went to the 96 car, where they started off okay, just like Paul was saying. But then they just fell off, and he left that ride. One of my "what if" situations that I always think about is what would have happened had he gone to the 1 car in 2010 instead of Jamie McMurray. Would he have had such a comeback year just like Jamie did? Or what if he would have ended up as RCR's fourth driver in 2009 instead of Casey Mears? Could he have rejuvenated his career just like Jeff Burton did there? I don't know. But it is pretty crazy how far you can fall off in such a short amount of time. Speaking of Jeff Burton, it seems that he is going through the same thing right now. As most of you guys know, I've always been a huge fan of Jeff's, so it kills me to see him struggling like he has the past year and a half. But fortunately for Jeff, he is with a much more established and seemingly stable organization than Bobby is. But at the same time, unfortunately for Jeff, he probably doesn't have that much longer with RCR as the Dillon kids are coming up really fast. But anyway, to wrap it up, like I said, it is really puzzling how far off you can get in this sport. It seems like just yesterday when Burton and Labonte were having 4-5 win seasons and championship bids. 256. Paul posted: 08.08.2012 - 3:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I consider IMS to be a driver track in the sense that it's easier to win if you can conserve your car until the end, which I think is the most difficult thing to master in racing: Knowing when to race hard. Drivers like Gordon, Martin, and Labonte that came from an era when equipment could be used up much quicker and tires would fall off before the end of a fuel run I think have an advantage at tracks like IMS, which is known for eating away at cars' tires. Of course, it's not as much of an advantage as before since fuel runs don't last as long and tires aren't as big a concern as they used to be. When Bobby won the Brickyard in 2000, it was still a driver track in my view because the tires were more vulnerable of falling off than they are now. So while you're right that IMS is one of the easier tracks to drive, it's one of the hardest tracks to race because patience is key, as is not using up your equipment too early. Murb, I think Jeff Burton can still compete if given the proper people put around him. Remember, he had 0 top tens and was 25th in the points last year through 19 races with Todd Berrier as his crew chief. Then with Luke Lambert as his CC for the final 17 races, Burton posted 2 top fives, 5 top tens (including 4 in the final 5 races), coulda-woulda-shoulda won the fall Talladega race, and finished the season 20th in points. Now Luke Lambert's with Elliott Sadler in Nationwide and may be on his way to winning that championship. So I think Burton's more than capable of running strong in Cup, but he needs to have the right people on his team. Also, Scott Miller leaving RCR to join MWR as its competition director has affected RCR as a whole. Even so, Burton may still post a top 20 points finish and should be a favorite for Talladega in the fall. Plus, Burton falls into the same category as Gordon, Labonte, and Martin in that he's better at conserving his equipment than a lot of other drivers. Unfortunately, these new cars and tires have taken away what was once an advantage from a driving standpoint. 257. Biscuits in a Red Bull posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never comment on NASCAR Cup results, but a fan was killed by lightning, and another was left in critical condition during the storm that cut the race short. 258. cjs3872 posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said Paul, IMS is one of the easiest tracks to drive, but racing there is another matter. But I think you have things backwards, as far as tires go at IMS. It's much harder on tires now since the track was ground in 2003 than it ever was prior to that. Prior to 2003, you could run the full race changing left side tires only once if you had to, even though they used a tire that gave up more prior to 2001. In fact, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., who was never known for being easy on his equipment, did just that in 1998, as he ran that entire race with just one left side tire change. But the track is much harder on tires than it was then. Indy is a track where you can run as hard you want, because you con't have to turn the car as much. But as I said, Indy, much like Pocono, is a hard track to win at because it exposes weaknesses like no other track on the circuit. 259. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.08.2012 - 5:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I don't think Gilliland should get the Flopper for 2011 because, unlike some drivers. I think it should go to Dave Blaney; he attempted every race, but DNQ'd for one, and had the first average finish of Cup points drivers who attempted every race. 260. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.08.2012 - 11:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) two nascar birthdays today. busch series champion tommy ellis turns 65 and my all-time favorite truck series champ jack sprague turns 48. given that morgan shepherd and james hylton st sill race in their 70's these guys could still be out there. 261. Rusty posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bobby Labonte was never the same after JGR fired Fatback McSwain in 2004 (or was it '05). I remember he was running decently and had a shot at the chase but the wheels fell off after that point. He has been doing nothing but adding to the starts total of the stat sheet since leaving JGR. Though, I do think the JTG/Daugherty equipment is a little better than what Bobby has done with it. Marcos Ambrose ran better with the team, but maybe that was because of the MWR ties. 262. Paul posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, thank you for clearing that up. Dave, last I heard, Ellis was in jail for tax evasion and Sprague had a deal with Randy Moss Motorsports for this season, but unfortunately that team closed and he hasn't found a ride since. NRF, I agree that the Flopper Award should be given to the lowest finishing driver who attempted every race. It should go to the lowest finishing driver who attempted every race, and not to the driver who managed to make every race. But then again, it's easier to just look at the starts stat. 263. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NRF, I agree that the Flopper Award should be given to the lowest finishing driver who attempted every race. It should go to the lowest finishing driver who attempted every race, and not to the driver who managed to make every race. But then again, it's easier to just look at the starts stat." But then again, it's just a fun award that shouldn't be taken to seriously. 264. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "to seriously" I left out an o. 265. Paul posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty, Fatback was fired (or left, I can't remember the story exactly) 18 races into the '04 season. Bobby fell from 6th to 13th in the points in the next 8 races and missed the Chase as a result. Also, I think a lot of JTG Daugherty Racing's success came while they were partners with MWR in '09 and '10. In 2011, they began transitioning away and into their own shop and now in 2012 they have no ties to MWR. The even get Triad engines while MWR gets TRD engines. I honestly think that team is more interested in the marketing aspect of NASCAR than the actual racing, which isn't doing Bobby any favors. 266. Paul posted: 08.08.2012 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, true it is a fun award, but it would be pretty cool if they gave it out at the awards banquet. 267. cjs3872 posted: 08.08.2012 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I think someone on another comments page mentioned that all Brad Daugherty, one of he co-owners of the 47 car, is interested in is the marketing side of the sport. That team's other co-owners, the JTG part of it, was instrumental in what happened to the Wood Brothers after 2005. When JTG bought in, that's when the Wood Brothers collapsed to the state where Ford had to literally rescue them in 2008. So the #47 team is owned by perhaps the worst car owners in the sport's highest division, excluding the start-and-park teams. Neither of the team's co-owners really care about how successful the team is, or know how to run a Cup team, and their history shows it. 268. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just in: Scott Speed to run the full schedule in 2013 with Leavine Family Racing. 269. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.08.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see I'm not the only one mystified by Bobby's insane struggles. Did he use up a career's worth of luck in '00 by completing all but NINE laps all year? Did he get his championship and decide he never wants to go through that kind of mental stress again? Was JGR just REALLY REALLY good in '99-'00 (remember Smoke won 6 races in 2000 which is still his career high 12 years later despite 3 titles, and won 3 times as a rookie in '99 which is his approximate yearly average)? We've seen drivers go from weekly contenders to irrelevent before, but never a champion, and never for this long. 270. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of irrelevant, here is the career Relevance for Bobby Labonte. 1991 - 0.00(%) 1993 - 66.67 1994 - 51.61 1995 - 67.74 1996 - 58.06 1997 - 75.00 1998 - 72.73 1999 - 79.41 2000 - 97.06 2001 - 75.00 2002 - 55.56 2003 - 66.67 2004 - 77.78 2005 - 47.22 2006 - 44.44 2007 - 55.56 2008 - 52.78 2009 - 36.11 2010 - 11.11 2011 - 33.33 2012 (through 21 races) - 38.10 (Relevance is a statistic invented by David Smith [not me] that states the number of times finishing in the top half of the field as a percentage) Labonte hasn't had the same crew chief for the entire season since '05. I leave the analysis to you. 271. murb posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad to see that Scott Speed will be running the full season with that team next year. Obviously they aren't competitive, but they're doing a great job of escaping from under that start-and-park umbrella and into a team that is starting to run full races. I didn't like Scott when he first came in. All of his "uniqueness" really came off as cockiness in my eyes. But I watched that story on Race Hub last night about him, and it looks like he finally has a good outlook on his life. He lost his mother and he and his wife now have a baby, and it seems like he's finally maturing. Hopefully he can stick around with that Leavine team for a while and they can build it into a solid organization, a la Tommy Baldwin and BK Racing. 272. David posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, FLOPPER's creator does award it to the worst-finishing driver who qualifies for EVERY race. 273. 10andJoe posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul - Jack Sprague doesn't have a ride now because he's excelled at burning bridges at every team he's run for. You know how some drivers get a rep (rightly or wrongly) as "damaged goods"? Well, Sprague's a "poison pill" because of that and nobody will hire him. (He /was/ supposed to run the ARCA finale last year, but nothing came of that either.) And now for an interesting question: Dodge is pulling out of NASCAR. But what about RAM? 274. Talon64 posted: 08.08.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now for worst driver ever, it has to be Michael Waltrip. To race for TWENTY FIVE YEARS and still never be worth a shit anywhere excpet tracks where you just hold the gas down is pathetic. At tracks like Martinsville, he ALWAYS looked like a rookie. Seems like in that time you would pick SOMETHING up." Hard to say it's Michael Waltrip when his best tracks, based on average finish, are ROAD COURSES of all things; 19.4 avg fin in 46 starts with 2 top 5's and 11 top 10's. But then I see his short track results: 162 starts, 2 top 5's, 16 top 10's, 20 lead lap finishes and... yeah. 275. Spen posted: 08.08.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For what it's worth, if we gave the FLOPPER award to drivers who attempted every race, the results would be: 1983: Sterling Marlin 1984: Trevor Boys 1985: J.D. McDuffie 1986: Jimmy Means 1987: Jimmy Means 1988: Jimmy Means 1989: Jimmy Means 1990: Jimmy Means 1991: Dave Marcis 1992: Dave Marcis 1993: Bobby Hillin, Jr. 1994: Loy Allen, Jr. 1995: Dave Marcis 1996: Dave Marcis 1997: Dave Marcis 1998: Dave Marcis 1999: Robert Pressley 2000: Scott Pruett 2001: Kyle Petty 2002: Brett Bodine 2003: Ken Schrader 2004: Kyle Petty 2005: Robby Gordon 2006: Michael Waltrip 2007: A.J. Allmendinger 2008: Joe Nemechek 2009: Scott Speed (Technically, Nemechek attempted every race, but he sold his ride to Speed twice.) 2010: Joe Nemechek 2011: Dave Blaney (Nemechek wins if you inculde non-points drivers.) 2012: J.J. Yeley (Nemechek again for non-pointers.) 276. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.08.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the all-time Flopper should go to Ed Negre or Frank Warren. They were around for 600 years and they COMBINED for 6 top-10s. 277. Talon64 posted: 08.08.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, that list looks a lot better since it has less Sterling Marlin and more Michael Waltrip on it. lol 278. Spen posted: 08.09.2012 - 3:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think you meant to say they had six top fives, not top tens. Even they didn't quite do *that* badly. And Negre was pretty solid when he ran the west coast races in the mid-50's. But he was already about 40 when he started running Cup on a regular basis, so his career looks a lot worse than it could have been. Frank kinda sucked, though. Still, both of them had more top tens and top fives in less starts than good ol' Smut Means. 279. Brad24 posted: 08.09.2012 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is also Gordon's first win in an even-numbered year since 2006. He went winless in 2008 & 2010. 280. 18fan posted: 08.09.2012 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is also the latest into a season that Gordon has scored his first win of the season since 2002, when he didn't win until the Bristol night race. 281. Paul posted: 08.09.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Blaney to run select races in the BKR No. 29 truck this season. Looks like he could be running full-time for either Penske or Brad next season. 282. Talon64 posted: 08.09.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Parker Kligerman's moved to run the #7 Red Horse Racing truck (which John King started the year with until the team shut down due to no $$$), starting at Michigan. All of a sudden Red Horse Racing has 1st and 6th in points in their lineup, and Kligerman's only 35 points back and within a possible shot of the championship. It sucks that Kligerman's been dropped by Penske, but at least they straight up replaced him with another up and coming driver in Ryan Blaney. And Kligerman ends up landing in a pretty good spot, especially considering RHR finished 2nd and 3rd last year at Michigan with Peters and Miguel Paludo. 283. 10andJoe posted: 08.09.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Penske, when it rains it pours - two of his sons (including IndyCar owner Jay) got arrested in Nantucket yesterday (break-in allegations). In As The Silly Season Turns, David Reutimann is tipped to either replace Bobby Labonte or become his teammate... 284. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.09.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ed Negre once gave a hungry young dirt track racer trying to make it into NASCAR the chance to make his Winston Cup debut in the 1975 World 600. 285. David posted: 08.09.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You would remember that, wouldn't you? 286. Red posted: 08.10.2012 - 1:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, as you're obviously a fellow subscriber to David Smith's website, what do you think of his PEER ratings? To me, the equipment handicap is not nearly enough, as all the top rated drivers are also in top equipment. Plus, I think he actually rewards winning TOO much, as guys with fluke wins like Ryan Newman and James Buescher are rated higher than what intuitively makes sense. The FLOPPER award was indeed created by a blogger named Dale Watermill. He also invented a rating called "The Watermills" that revealed the ridiculous conservatism of the points system: Wins + Top 10's + Lead Lap Finishes + Races Finished = Almost perfect correlation to the real points system (not including the chase reset, ovbiously). That right there is why we need a new points system. As far as drivers like Jimmy Means and Dave Marcis running like total dogshit for over a decade each, what was the purpose for them? I mean, I honestly don't understand what those guys got out of being a totally uncompetitive backmarker for years and years. Why not run a lower series and at least be moderately competitve? What they did was the equivalent of joining the PGA tour and missing the cut by 15 strokes every week for ten years. I guess some people are just happy to be there... 287. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, I have to agree. I would rather be winning on a lower Series than getting my doors blown off on the big stage. But like you said, for some it is satisfying just to be there in the top Seriies. Even if it is for the racing equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats. 288. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To answer your question, Red, I think PEER is very well thought out statistic. Now it could use some adjusting, but nothing's perfect. I think it is pretty obvious that it is an average, and that when you multiply the number by races run, you get a number that I call Accumulated PEER, or APEER. Now a win adds anywhere from about 10 to 14.5 to that number. For example, Jeff's win this last weekend added 11.5 points to his APEER, and his actual PEER increased by 0.462 points after division. Now when a driver crashes, that is a subtraction from APEER. If a mechanical failure were to befall him, it doesn't change at all because that's not his/her fault. As for the handicaps, I think they are good, but not perfect. These race teams aren't stupid. You don't need stats like PEER to determine if a driver is good or not. Sure they've bigot the best scores and the best equipment, but occasionally a underrated driver with a midpack team sneaks in with a good score. How else do you explain Regan Smith's 1.833 PEER last year? Anyways, those are my thoughts Whew. P.S. For those not in the know, PEER is David Smith's attempt to evaluate a driver independent of his equipment and team. 289. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) P.P.S. The Watermill score is cool. It's the simple way to see who would have won under the Latford system in pre-1975 years. 290. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two things in my comment at #288: first, I left the period off of "thoughts", and the darn AutoCorrect put "bigot" instead of "got". Typing on this Kindle Fire is FRUSTRATING. 291. Spen posted: 08.10.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If a mechanical failure were to befall him, it doesn't change at all because that's not his/her fault." Which is total BS. Plenty of engine failures have occurred because a driver pushed it too hard. 292. Sean posted: 08.10.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Watermill - Yeah, I hate his stuff for its conservatism. I understand he's merely trying to find an innovative way to PREDICT the championship rather than necessarily supporting the current or Latford points systems. But average finish by itself (in the pre-chase era) is probably almost as good a predictor or just as good (I haven't correlated number of "watermills" to number of points or average finish to number of points, and I don't feel like it). His stuff implicitly supports the current points system by attempting to predict it, and it usually annoys me. David Smith - I love a lot of that guy's stuff but often he drives me off the wall as well. His attempt in 2005 to divide all drivers into five groups (Aggressives, Conservatives, Cerebral Warriors, Blue Collar Drivers, and I'm forgetting the other one at the moment) was one of my favorite NASCAR pieces ever even though in some cases he was ultimately wrong (I'd hesitate to call Jimmie Johnson an aggressor, Kyle Busch as a conservative today is laughable as he might be the only driver who doesn't points race, Ryan Newman is not a cerebral warrior like David Pearson or Harry Gant, because unlike Pearson and Gant, NEWMAN's strategy wins are solely due to Borland or Gibson, not his OWN strategy). I also enjoy Smith's driver prospect rankings, but other times he makes me cringe, like when he said (possibly in the driving styles series) that Sam Hornish was the "best pound-for-pound driver in the WORLD" (no, I'm not being a NASCAR-only fan here and commenting on Hornish's lousy NASCAR career, but it would be pretty hard to argue that for any CART or IRL driver in the split era, even harder when it's somebody like Hornish who feasted on cookie-cutters due to superior cars...yeah, he won at Indy, where he actually had an atrocious record besides his win, and won at Milwaukee and Phoenix, but...not enough to not typecast him as a cookie-cutter driver. Kind of like Carl Edwards at the moment. Kasey Kahne I think is finally BEGINNING to break that image...) I can't afford to subscribe to Smith's site to opine on his rankings...but as with most of his stuff it's probably a 50/50 chance that I'd like the PEER standings... Which is still a higher percentage than most of the columnists on more professional sites... As for measuring equipment strength? I have made my own attempts, but I'm not sure how good they are. As with average percent led (which I was probably the first to publish online, even though others like Red were apparently calculating it on their own as well), I created an era-independent measure for average finish as well, percent beat, literally the percentage of other drivers each driver beat. This would simply be (43 - average finish)/42 * 100 for drivers who competed solely in the 43-car field era (where an average finish of 1 would give you 100% and an average finish of 43 would give you 0%), but it's obviously more complicated in earlier decades when each field had wildly different numbers of starters. While I'm not a big consistency fan, and I prefer dominance as a measure of strength, this is still superior in comparing drivers across eras (the only problem is drivers like Darrell Waltrip who dominated in eras with fewer cars and stunk in eras with 43-car fields...drivers like that will have lower ranks than they theoretically should...all statistics are flawed). The actual average finish statistic is HEAVILY biased towards drivers from the '50s and '60s as those drivers more often than not competed against fields of 25 cars or fewer and thereby had highly inflated average finish statistics. Jimmie Johnson's average finish for instance is 16th all time; using percent beat instead he goes up to 2nd behind only Lee Petty. Modern star drivers are inflated because: 1. They all started in great equipment from day one (unlike many drivers in the past). 2. They haven't hit the downswing of their careers yet... 3. There's much greater reliability these days. If you take Richard Petty's RELEVANT career (1960-1984) obviously he'll beat both of them... Here are the top 25: Lee Petty - 75.30% Jimmie Johnson - 74.63% Dick Hutcherson - 73.96% Dale Earnhardt - 73.42% Tony Stewart - 72.53% Jeff Gordon - 72.36% Tim Flock - 71.99% Rex White - 71.96% Carl Edwards - 71.20% Herb Thomas - 71.19% Bobby Allison - 69.60% David Pearson - 69.47% Denny Hamlin - 69.13% Ned Jarrett - 68.94% Mark Martin - 68.58% Joe Weatherly - 68.37% Matt Kenseth - 68.16% Richard Petty - 68.07% Kevin Harvick - 67.61% Marvin Panch - 67.09% Cale Yarborough - 67.03% Clint Bowyer - 66.35% Rusty Wallace - 66.02% Fred Lorenzen - 65.96% Lloyd Dane - 65.85% Obviously no one would rank these drivers anything close to this, but I think that by itself shows the flaws in evaluating drivers by pure consistency... This is still better than average finish... Nobody would say David Ragan (50.50%) was above average or Bobby Hamilton (49.76%) was below average, but this IS capturing something... Although, again, I am NOT a consistency fan, I also like the idea that you could maybe make apples-and-oranges comparisons across series with this: was Mario Andretti in IndyCar more consistent than Dale Earnhardt in Cup? Etc... Admittedly, I don't have USAC entered on my site (aside from the Indy 500s), and I'd have to find some neat way of combining AAA, USAC, CART, Champ Car, IRL, and IndyCar statistics together as IndyCar now itself does (or pretends to...I want to cringe when IndyCar talks about drivers breaking track qualifying records even if they set a slower speed than some CART driver did in the late '90s, which they do quite often...and probably will again this year at California because nobody is going to approach Gil de Ferran's 241 mph world-record lap in 2000 CART California qualifying...) Since pretty much all the CART/Champ Car split-era stars except Alex Zanardi, Greg Moore, and Cristiano da Matta (ALL due to injury or death) eventually competed on the IRL/IndyCar side anyway, this stuff gets VERY silly. 293. Sean posted: 08.10.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where am I going with this? I thought the best way to evaluate talent adjusting for team strength would be to compare a driver's percentage beat on driver's tracks to a TEAM's percentage beat on the horsepower tracks. This is awkward and probably somewhat false for multi-car teams because one car HAS to beat the other cars in a given race, but I think it is also the closest I can get to evaluating pure equipment strength that I can think of... I did this a long time ago. If I remember correctly, I divided the tracks up as follows: Driver tracks: Bristol, Darlington, Dover, Indianapolis, Loudon, Martinsville, Phoenix, Pocono, Richmond, Rockingham, Sears Point, Watkins Glen Equipment tracks: Atlanta, California, Charlotte, Chicagoland, Daytona, Homestead, Kansas, Kentucky, Las Vegas, Michigan, Talladega, Texas You can quibble with the PRECISE tracks I put in each category (some would put Atlanta on the driver side and some would put Indy/Pocono on the equipment side for instance), but it would be hard to argue against the concept. Doing it this way makes a few assumptions that are probably wrong (all individual teams within a collective team have the same equipment, for instance; teams with only one strong car are stronger than teams with one even stronger car but a couple of cars far behind) but it should lead to interesting results regardless. I required a minimum number of starts on horsepower tracks to be eligible for each team list as well, so some teams that made starts will not be listed. There were teams that surprised me on each list, but upon looking at the stats, I could usually deduce why they were ranked so highly. Here were the team percent beat rankings for each team owner starting in 1997 on equipment tracks only (when the cookie-cutter boom began): 1997 1. Joe Gibbs - 87.90% 2. Robert Yates - 72.32% 3. Jack Roush - 70.11% 4. Rick Hendrick - 65.81% 5. Chuck Rider - 64.09% 6. Bill Elliott - 61.71% 7. Wood Brothers - 57.14% 8. Richard Childress - 56.31% 9. Petty Enterprises - 55.65% 10. Cale Yarborough - 55.36% 11. Andy Petree - 51.79% 12. Ricky Rudd - 51.59% 13. Bill Davis - 50.65% 13. MB2 - 50.65% 15. Roger Penske - 50.00% 16. Michael Kranefuss - 49.21% 17. Morgan-McClure - 46.23% 18. Harry Melling - 45.24% 19. Junie Donlavey - 45.04% 20. Travis Carter - 44.64% 21. Darrell Waltrip - 44.59% 22. Richard Jackson - 44.44% 23. Brett Bodine - 41.67% 24. Butch Mock - 40.24% 25. Filbert Martocci - 40.04% 26. Larry Hedrick - 37.70% 27. Felix Sabates - 34.37% 28. PPC - 33.81% 29. Geoff Bodine - 32.47% 30. Buz McCall - 32.38% 31. Stavola Brothers - 25.00% 1998 1. Roger Penske - 72.99% 2. Joe Gibbs - 70.88% 3. Rick Hendrick - 64.84% 4. Travis Carter - 64.65% 5. Wood Brothers - 61.54% 6. Jack Roush - 61.07% 7. Bill Davis - 60.44% 8. MB2 - 57.88% 9. Morgan-McClure - 57.14% 10. Robert Yates - 55.22% 11. Andy Petree - 53.74% 12. Richard Childress - 52.84% 13. Jim Mattei - 51.39% 14. Brett Bodine - 47.44% 15. Ricky Rudd - 47.25% 16. Bill Elliott - 47.12% 17. Dale Earnhardt, Inc - 44.59% 18. Junie Donlavey - 44.05% 19. Felix Sabates - 44.01% 20. Petty Enterprises - 41.30% 21. Butch Mock - 40.48% 22. Jasper Racing - 38.29% 23. Joe Falk - 37.91% 24. Filbert Martocci - 34.63% 25. Harry Melling - 33.15% 26. Buz McCall - 32.38% 27. Larry Hedrick - 31.17% 28. Bahari' Racing - 29.22% 1999 1. Joe Gibbs - 83.67% 2. Richard Childress - 74.49% 3. Robert Yates - 70.07% 4. Roger Penske - 65.82% 5. Bill Davis - 63.59% 6. Jack Roush - 56.68% 7. Rick Hendrick - 56.18% 8. Andy Petree - 52.13% 9. Bill Elliott - 50.85% 10. Morgan-McClure - 50.00% 11. Petty Enterprises - 47.80% 12. Jim Mattei - 47.79% 13. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 47.20% 14. Wood Brothers - 46.09% 15. Tyler Jet Motorsports - 44.39% 16. Felix Sabates - 43.02% 17. MB2 - 40.65% 18. Cale Yarborough - 40.31% 19. Harry Melling - 39.56% 20. Joe Bessey - 38.27% 21. Ricky Rudd - 37.24% 22. Travis Carter - 34.03% 23. Brett Bodine - 33.15% 24. Butch Mock - 32.34% 25. Larry Hedrick - 28.57% 2000 1. Richard Childress - 75.94% 2. Joe Gibbs - 75.26% 3. Robert Yates - 71.43% 4. Roger Penske - 64.88% 5. Jack Roush - 64.11% 6. Bill Davis - 56.81% 7. Rick Hendrick - 54.88% 8. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 54.76% 9. Bill Elliott - 51.53% 10. Jasper Racing - 49.15% 11. MB2 - 48.87% 12. Felix Sabates - 47.09% 13. Petty Enterprises - 45.65% 14. Andy Petree - 44.25% 15. Travis Carter - 40.74% 16. Morgan-McClure - 34.18% 17. Brett Bodine - 33.81% 18. Wood Brothers - 32.05% 19. Galaxy Motorsports - 30.56% 20. Joe Bessey - 30.48% 21. A.J. Foyt - 30.30% 22. Eel River Racing - 28.57% 23. Cal Wells - 25.45% 24. Harry Melling - 23.38% 2001 1. Robert Yates - 63.76% 2. Jack Roush - 61.94% 3. Joe Gibbs - 59.23% 4. Roger Penske - 58.43% 5. Chip Ganassi - 58.29% 6. Richard Childress - 57.84% 7. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 56.55% 8. Rick Hendrick - 54.72% 9. MB2 - 54.17% 10. Jim Smith - 51.87% 11. Bill Davis - 50.22% 12. Ray Evernham - 49.85% 13. Jasper Racing - 48.66% 14. Travis Carter - 47.31% 15. Andy Petree - 46.58% 16. Wood Brothers - 43.01% 17. Brett Bodine - 39.64% 18. Harry Melling - 37.62% 19. Junie Donlavey - 36.90% 20. Morgan-McClure - 35.24% 21. Cal Wells - 34.89% 22. Petty Enterprises - 32.87% 23. A.J. Foyt - 27.98% 2002 1. Roger Penske - 69.64% 2. Robert Yates - 66.59% 3. Jack Roush - 66.23% 4. Rick Hendrick - 61.50% 5. Chip Ganassi - 60.68% 6. Joe Gibbs - 58.26% 7. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 56.00% 8. Cal Wells - 52.68% 9. Jasper Racing - 52.38% 10. Ray Evernham - 51.95% 11. Richard Childress - 48.66% 12. Wood Brothers - 48.21% 13. Petty Enterprises - 44.00% 14. Bill Davis - 42.40% 15. MB2 - 39.58% 16. Morgan-McClure - 37.05% 17. Travis Carter - 35.19% 18. A.J. Foyt - 33.63% 19. Andy Petree - 33.57% 20. Brett Bodine - 31.12% 21. Jim Smith - 27.03% 22. Beth Ann Morgenthau - 17.86% 2003 1. Joe Gibbs - 68.18% 2. Rick Hendrick - 61.55% 3. Ray Evernham - 60.34% 4. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 58.43% 5. Jack Roush - 57.63% 6. Richard Childress - 57.19% 7. Roger Penske - 56.70% 8. Chip Ganassi - 49.55% 9. Robert Yates - 46.97% 10. Bill Davis - 46.73% 11. Jim Smith - 45.98% 12. MB2 - 43.75% 13. Travis Carter - 42.11% 14. Cal Wells - 41.82% 15. Wood Brothers - 40.92% 16. BACE Motorsports - 39.05% 17. Petty Enterprises - 38.49% 18. Jasper Racing - 38.39% 19. Morgan-McClure - 35.32% 20. Gene Haas - 34.29% 21. Beth Ann Morgenthau - 31.46% 22. A.J. Foyt - 18.33% 2004 1. Robert Yates - 68.70% 2. Joe Gibbs - 66.98% 3. Jack Roush - 60.90% 4. Chip Ganassi - 59.01% 5. Rick Hendrick - 58.88% 6. Wood Brothers - 58.68% 7. Ray Evernham - 58.20% 8. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 58.19% 9. MB2 - 56.05% 10. Richard Childress - 54.16% 11. Roger Penske - 50.44% 12. Bill Davis - 44.00% 13. Gene Haas - 41.74% 14. Beth Ann Morgenthau - 36.69% 15. Petty Enterprises - 34.70% 16. Cal Wells - 32.21% 17. Morgan-McClure - 29.83% 18. James Finch - 19.44% 19. Don Arnold - 14.76% 20. Hermie Sadler - 9.76% 294. Sean posted: 08.10.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2005 1. Jack Roush - 72.35% 2. Robert Yates - 58.93% 3. Chip Ganassi - 56.08% 4. Roger Penske - 55.51% 5. Rick Hendrick - 54.27% 6. Joe Gibbs - 53.50% 7. Richard Childress - 52.76% 8. Wood Brothers - 50.53% 9. Ray Evernham - 49.46% 10. Gene Haas - 48.68% 11. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 46.26% 12. MB2 - 45.69% 13. Beth Ann Morgenthau - 45.11% 14. Petty Enterprises - 40.74% 15. Bill Davis - 37.99% 16. Morgan-McClure - 34.52% 17. Robby Gordon - 28.21% 18. Cal Wells - 25.63% 19. Peak Fitness - 23.61% 2006 1. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 64.17% 2. Richard Childress - 63.16% 3. Rick Hendrick - 62.27% 4. Joe Gibbs - 59.08% 5. Jack Roush - 58.28% 6. Ray Evernham - 55.75% 7. Chip Ganassi - 50.65% 8. Robert Yates - 50.20% 9. Robby Gordon - 49.87% 10. Gene Haas - 49.25% 11. Roger Penske - 45.37% 12. MB2 - 42.47% 13. Petty Enterprises - 42.33% 14. Hall of Fame Racing - 39.68% 15. Cal Wells - 38.41% 16. Wood Brothers - 36.77% 17. Bill Davis - 34.30% 18. Morgan-McClure - 31.14% 19. Beth Ann Morgenthau - 23.61% 2007 1. Rick Hendrick - 68.45% 2. Richard Childress - 64.90% 3. Jack Roush - 58.89% 4. Roger Penske - 58.30% 5. Joe Gibbs - 56.88% 6. Bobby Ginn - 51.19% 7. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 48.13% 8. Chip Ganassi - 47.80% 9. Red Bull Racing - 46.69% 10. Robert Yates - 44.25% 11. Ray Evernham - 44.02% 12. Petty Enterprises - 43.06% 13. Robby Gordon - 42.20% 14. Hall of Fame Racing - 42.20% 15. Bill Davis - 41.94% 16. Gene Haas - 38.29% 17. Michael Waltrip - 32.08% 18. Wood Brothers - 30.95% 19. Furniture Row Racing - 25.71% 2008 1. Richard Childress - 70.20% 2. Jack Roush - 68.92% 3. Joe Gibbs - 68.66% 4. Rick Hendrick - 61.23% 5. Red Bull Racing - 53.17% 6. Ray Evernham - 52.43% 7. Dale Earnhardt, Inc. - 47.35% 8. Roger Penske - 47.30% 9. Robert Yates - 39.02% 10. Robby Gordon - 38.89% 11. Michael Waltrip - 37.43% 12. Petty Enterprises - 37.25% 13. Chip Ganassi - 36.66% 14. Gene Haas - 35.86% 15. Bill Davis - 33.73% 16. Wood Brothers - 27.21% 17. Hall of Fame Racing - 23.02% 18. Furniture Row Racing - 21.15% 2009 1. Stewart-Haas - 66.60% 2. Rick Hendrick - 61.90% 3. Joe Gibbs - 61.61% 4. Jack Roush - 60.34% 5. Richard Childress - 59.26% 6. Michael Waltrip - 54.76% 7. Earnhardt-Ganassi - 53.31% 8. Red Bull Racing - 51.63% 9. Roger Penske - 51.15% 10. Richard Petty Motorsports - 50.07% 11. JTG - 47.22% 12. Wood Brothers - 46.83% 13. Hall of Fame Racing - 36.38% 14. Robby Gordon - 35.98% 15. Robert Yates - 33.33% 16. Front Row Motorsports - 31.41% 17. The Racer's Group - 27.91% 18. James Finch - 22.02% 19. Bob Germain - 20.71% 20. Tommy Baldwin - 14.94% 21. Joe Nemechek - 9.05% 22. Prism Motorsports - 5.75% 2010 1. Richard Childress - 71.65% 2. Jack Roush - 66.17% 3. Rick Hendrick - 66.07% 4. Joe Gibbs - 63.32% 5. Stewart-Haas - 62.24% 6. Michael Waltrip - 60.75% 7. Earnhardt-Ganassi - 57.80% 8. Richard Petty Motorsports - 56.68% 9. Furniture Row Racing - 51.19% 10. Red Bull Racing - 50.60% 11. Roger Penske - 49.51% 12. JTG - 43.39% 13. Wood Brothers - 43.25% 14. The Racer's Group - 32.01% 15. Front Row Motorsports - 31.00% 16. Robby Gordon - 27.69% 17. Latitude 43 Motorsports - 24.66% 18. Bob Germain - 24.55% 19. James Finch - 20.75% 20. Tommy Baldwin - 15.14% 21. Joe Nemechek - 7.70% 22. HP Racing - 7.02% 2011 1. Stewart-Haas - 73.68% 2. Jack Roush - 70.87% 3. Richard Childress - 66.37% 4. Roger Penske - 65.61% 5. Rick Hendrick - 64.42% 6. Red Bull Racing - 62.61% 7. Joe Gibbs - 61.46% 8. Richard Petty Motorsports - 59.92% 9. Michael Waltrip - 52.32% 10. Earnhardt-Ganassi - 51.65% 11. Wood Brothers - 49.49% 12. Furniture Row Racing - 48.28% 13. James Finch - 41.27% 14. JTG - 38.23% 15. Frank Stoddard - 28.93% 16. The Racer's Group - 28.04% 17. Tommy Baldwin - 27.49% 18. Front Row Motorsports - 25.86% 19. Bob Germain - 24.31% 20. Robby Gordon - 22.22% 21. Dusty Whitney - 10.86% 22. Joe Nemechek - 5.67% 23. HP Racing - 5.06% 2012 to date 1. Jack Roush - 80.95% 2. Rick Hendrick - 72.08% 3. Joe Gibbs - 65.71% 4. Michael Waltrip - 64.84% 5. Stewart-Haas - 64.76% 6. Richard Childress - 63.31% 7. Earnhardt-Ganassi - 57.02% 8. Richard Petty Motorsports - 55.00% 9. Roger Penske - 54.99% 10. Bob Germain - 49.52% 11. JTG - 47.14% 12. James Finch - 44.29% 13. Wood Brothers - 43.20% 14. Furniture Row Racing - 40.95% 15. BK Racing - 37.38% 16. Frank Stoddard - 34.76% 17. Tommy Baldwin - 33.81% 18. Front Row Motorsports - 28.97% 19. Robinson-Blakeney - 15.48% 20. Inception Motorsports - 14.88% 21. Phil Parsons - 10.71% 22. Joe Nemechek - 9.79% 23. R3 Motorsports - 8.33% I think for the most part these rankings are self-explanatory although there are some surprises every year (usually teams that have no truly bad cars beating teams that have a great car and a couple cars lagging behind...) There were other surprises like Childress in the Earnhardt/Skinner years. They were very consistent but not contending for race wins often except on plate tracks and Atlanta (which yeah, would rate them quite highly by this metric) while the other top teams had drivers that were doing much worse than Skinner. No, it is unreasonable to assume that all cars within the same team are equal. In 1998, the #24 certainly had better equipment than the other two Hendrick cars, one would assume, but often the driver himself DOES have input into that as well so this might not be ALL THAT unfair... This becomes interesting when you compare individual driver performances TO their teams... Which of Joe Gibbs's three titles is least impressive? In 2000, Gibbs was at 75.26%. In 2002, 58.26%. In 2005, 53.50%. Clearly I think we can deduce Bobby Labonte's title was primarily due to equipment while Tony Stewart's titles were primarily due to Tony Stewart. However, Stewart-Haas LAST YEAR had the strongest equipment, which does match up with the races themselves, as Stewart has been dominating on cookie-cutters way more than anywhere else of late, so in that respect Stewart's title last year was his least impressive (and if you go by his first 26 races, that's kind of understandable). This is a CRUDE way to measure equipment strength for sure, but I'm positive it's capturing something. It's interesting to watch teams rise and fall from year to year, but like I said, it's most interesting to compare each driver to his team. I'm not going to print all the individual year percent beat for each driver, but you can calculate it simply by (43 - average finish)/42 for any year starting with 1998, except for 2001 where it would be ever so slightly off due to the 42-car field in the season finale at Loudon. Gibbs and Yates were at or near the top of a lot of years in the '90s, which does make Bobby Labonte and Dale Jarrett look pretty bad as I expected. Gibbs has been a little off in most recent years, meaning Kyle and Denny's performances are probably better than Bobby's, which I also expected... There are always surprises. Teams like The Wood Brothers, Bahari', Bill Davis, etc... being higher than it seems like they should be for each year, and since this is PURELY consistency-based, it doesn't necessarily reflect what's actually happening on track, but the difference between a driver's percent beat and the team's for that season should give a reasonably good measure of who's overachieving and who's not... I'm sure there are better and more nuanced ways to do this. Perhaps it would be better for me to use average percent led for each team owner instead, or even ADJUSTED average percent led by weighting the more difficult teams more... I'm not a consistency fan, but still, most of this does more or less reflect who I think had the best teams top-to-bottom (Hendrick and Roush get killed many years due to their entries far off the pace...) Even so, I'm pleased with this as it is and definitely think it's capturing something, considering few people are even TRYING to measure equipment strength... It's a crude measure, but (driver percent beat - team percent beat on horsepower tracks) probably would be an interesting measure at figuring out who the REAL drivers are (one good example - the struggling owner-drivers like Geoff Bodine, Bill Elliott, and Ricky Rudd in the years right before their teams collapsed...) 295. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.10.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really can't agree that there are driver tracks anymore. The results of the road course races just indicate the top-10 from an oval race. Heck, they don't even use the clutch that much anymore. 296. Sean posted: 08.10.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, MWR's performance at Sears Point seemed out of this world considering how mediocre their drivers are (Brian Vickers blowing around Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Marcos Ambrose? Oh please...) so you probably do have a point in that regard, but I still think I have SOMETHING here... 297. Sean posted: 08.10.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "weighting the more difficult teams more" weighting the more difficult races* more 298. cjs3872 posted: 08.10.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Sean, remember that Vickers had just driven in the 24 Hours of LeMans, and the car he co-drove did finish sxith, so that gives him some credibility as a road race, plus since he had just come from LeMans, he had just driven a road race, so he had very litle adjustingto do, as far arunning the road course. Add to that the fact that Michael Waltrip did much better on road courses than he's given credit for, and you can figure out why Vickers and MWR as a whole did so well at Sonoma. Plus, when Marcos Ambrose drove for JTG-Daugherty, they were still aligned with MWR, so they had a few of Marcos' old setups nd tricks to rely on, as well. And NicoRosbergFan, they began using a transmission where you didn't have to use the clutch about 20 years ago on the road courses, and it became so popular that they've used it on all kinds tracks for many years, even Daytona and Talladega. In fact, in his run toward trying to win a third Daytona 500 in 1997 (which fell six lsps short), Bill Elliott had to rely on such a transmission, because his clutch failed sometime during that race (it did not, ultimately, cost him that race), so they use it everywhere now, and have for many years. Part of the reason for that is because they could go through the gears faster, and it's a thing that the teams can fall back on if their clutch fails. Otherwise, it would put them right out of the race. 299. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love the stats and the discussion of the pros and cons of each. Obviously any ranking system that has Carl Edwards 4 spots higher than David Pearson is seriously flawed. 300. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To answer #291 (Spen), you are most certainly correct. Buddy Baker comes to mind. However, in hindsight, it is hard to tell which were legitimate engine failures or which were caused by overtaxing the car. 301. Red posted: 08.10.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David - I think David Smith's PEER ratings are sound in theory, and I absolutely think PEER is a better stat than most of the simplistic stuff on the internet right now. However, some of the week-to-week fluctuations just flat don't make any sense, and it makes me question the integrity of the whole system. For example, Kasey Kahne dropped from 6th to 13th in PEER after finishing 2nd at Pocono. Huh?! Between Michigan and Indy, Mark Martin's PEER went from 2.292 down to 1.292 then back up to 2.292 then back down to 1.292 in a four week stretch where he didn't even run a race. WTF?! Plus, he doesn't separate out the S&P races for drivers like Mears and Blaney, so their ratings are distorted and unreliable. Also, I don't think he throws out races where a driver succumbs to mechanical failure, but it seems as though he wants you to think that. I remember in one column he bragged that PEER evaluates a driver "completely independent" from his equipment, then later noted that Kyle Busch's PEER had dropped because of his faulty JGR engines, but that it wasn't indicitive of his ability as a driver. Kind of talking from both sides of his mouth. And for most of the season he had Jeff Gordon rated as "Barely Serviceable" even though almost all his bad finishes were his team's fault and not his. I would LOVE to see the inner workings of his formula to see if it really makes sense or not, but that's never going to happen since it's proprietary. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading the material on his website, and I've really liked his podcasts, but I'm a bit skeptical about his numbers. 302. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have no idea how those crazy fluctuations would occur because of actual performance, I just think he typos. A lot. And most of the time he fixes the mistake the next week. P.S. Have you asked him about it on his Q&A articles? 303. Red posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean - I'm not a big fan of Watermill's stuff, either. His intentions are in the right place, but the data he uses is very simplistic and doesn't tell us anything we don't already know. I've actually exchanged a number of emails with him to offer him suggestions and he seems like a thoughtful, intelligent guy, but his stats always leave me wanting more depth. However, he's apparently given up on his website, since there hasn't been any new content since 2010. I've been thinking...quite a few of us here seem to keep our own stats and records, and it would be really cool if we could find a place to share them with each other. This forum is okay for posting small bits of data, but I have many spreadsheets worth of stuff, and I'm guessing some of you do, too. If I were as smart as Sean, I'd create my own website, but I don't know jack about writing code or anything to do with site design. I might ask Alan the webmaster if he could create a "Community Stats" section, where we could all post our stuff and discuss it. 304. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heck yeah! That would be awesome. 305. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like we are in for another "upset" run by Kurt Busch. He just led practice. 306. NascarCupFacts: posted: 08.10.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Richard Petty was running 4th on the last lap when Donnie Allison and Cale Yarborough crashed each other.Running 3rd was A.J Foyt who mistakenly hit the brakes briefly when the yellow came out,this was due to his USAC racing where they slow during the yellow,but they raced back to the flag in Nascar, thus giving Richard Petty the most lucked into victory he ever had. 307. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually surprised that no one mentioned this yet, but 21 years ago, we lost J.D. McDuffie. 308. NascarCupFacts: posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is my Modern era Cup stats Formula: 12 Points for the Championship 7 points for the Daytona 500 and the Southern 500 5 points for the Brickyard 400 and Coke 600 and Spring Talladega 500 3 points for Normal wins .5 point for 2nd .5 point for Pole .5 point for Leading the most 5 points for winning the most races in a season 3 points for leading the most laps in a season 3 points for winning the most poles in a season Top 3 with the most points: 1. Jeff Gordon 548 2. Dale Earnhardt 454 3. Darrell Waltrip 442 309. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @308: Do you have any deductions in your formula for horrific late season collapses? Am I the only one who puts emphasis on true closing ability at the end of a season, when the pressure is the highest and you are the most mentally fatigued (hence Kyle's horrendous end of season numbers, he is very mentally weak)? Also, are there any deductions for having a teammate show up while you are still in your prime and winning 5 straight championships? Are there any rewards for winning 67 races for an organization which only reaches win #100 eleven years after yur passing? Notable modern era legends and their title closing ability (titles won : legitimate title chances): Earnhardt: 7 for 8 Johnson: 5 for 7 Gordon: 4 for 7 Stewart: 3 for 3 (penalized for being the most talented driver and only having 3 shots) Rusty: 1 for 3 Bill: 1 for 3 Bobby: 1 for 4 (ouch!) Darrell: 3 for 4 Cale: 3 for 5 I would comment on pre modern legends if I actually understood any of the damn point systems back then. The only pre Latford system on the list above represented is Cale's inability to beat Benny and his underfunded team in '73. 310. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, there should be emphasis on "saved by the bell" championships, also known as "hanging on for dear life" championships when you build up a big lead, then somebody behind you starts outrunning you all over the place but basically run out of races. There are also overachievement titles where a small less funded team somehow beats the big dogs (usually by luck, but still). And of course there are champs who won as the result of an epic choke that they capitolized on. Then there is the "somebody had to win it" titles which are self explanatory. Again, only 1973 is here from the pre Latford system, and 2008 is the only Brian France title represented where JJ got a pretty good lead with 4 races left, but Carl made him sweat it. And 2010 is self explanatory. Saved By The Bell championships: 2008, 1997, 1995, 1993, 1988, 1983, 1980. Overachievement titles: 1973, 1980, 1992: Epic choke titles: 1979, 1981, 1982, 1985, 1992, 1996, 2010. Somebody had to win: 1984, 1991, 2002. 311. cjs3872 posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NascarCupFacts, I believe that Petty was running third, Waltrip fourth (with a fouled up sparkplug), and Foyt fifth on the final lap when that crash happened on the final lap of the 1979 Daytona 500. A few laps earlier, CBS showed those three and where they were running, and the last time they were seen on the cameras before the accident happened, that was the order they were running in, Petty, Waltrip, then Foyt, and that was with about 3-5 laps left in the race, and with a bad sparkplug, Waltrip wasn't about to make any move on Petty, because he knew his car couldn't run fast pushing the air, otherwise he would have been able to keep up with Donnie and Cale when they passed him after his last pit stop. Foyt may have backed off slightly when he saw the caution light for the Allison/Yarborough crash, but that only dropped him about two or three car lengths further behind Petty and Waltrip, and made him unable to move on Darrell for second place, but he couldn't have passed both Petty and Waltrip on the final lap unless Waltrip got beside Petty, and Waltrip wasn't about to do that with his engine not running at full power. 312. NascarCupFacts: posted: 08.10.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Johnson: 5 for 7" This should be 5 for 8 epic collapses in 2005 and 2011 and coming up short in 2004.He had a shot last season after finishing 2nd at Dover and backing it up with a win at Kansas,and had an ultra collapse in the last 5 races. "Earnhardt: 7 for 8" And Earnhardt was definitely a contender in 1995 considering he had a 251 point lead on Gordon after 5 races and 123 after 13 races. 313. cjs3872 posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think you mean 2009 was the only year that Jimmie Johnson had a big points lead in the Chase, because if it hadn't been for his early crash at Texas, Johnson would actualy have clinched a race early (imagine the nightmare that would have given NASCAR going into the finale, because that's exactly what the Chase was implemented to avoid). Even then, all Johnson needed at Homestead was a mid-pack finish, and he got quite a bit more than that. So I think you might have been referring to 2009 when you were saying the Jimmie had a big points lead in the Chase. 314. NascarCupFacts: posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Saved By The Bell championships: 2008, 1997, 1995, 1993, 1988, 1983, 1980." No way was 1993 or 1995 "Saved by the Bell".Earnhardt locked up the title basically just by starting the car and the same was true for Gordon,Evernham and Hendrick were even taking part in the pit stops because they weren't taking the race serious once Gordon had clinched it, so I wouldn't classify those as such.However 1980 and 1997 are nearly identical in that both Earnhardt and Gordon both threw away big point leads in the last 4 races and came close to losing the title in the last race and barely came out with the title. 315. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The Brian France titles have to be treated a little differently as to what constitutes "hanging on for dear life". Carl won 3 of the last 4 races in '08 making JJ, who looked as though he would cruise to the title like he would in '09, sweat a bit. And JJ was not a contender in '11. He was mathematically eliminated before Homestead and realistically elliminated after Dega when him and June unveiled their vaunted "wait until the checkered flag falls to make our charge" strategy. As for '95 that was early in the year. With just 4 races left, Jeff had a 302 point lead. He won by 34. And all Jeff had to do in the last race was lead a lap or not finish last. So Dale didn't have a realistic shot. But if he had one more race..... that's why it qualifies for "Saved By The Bell". 316. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In '93 Rusty whittled a 300+ point lead down to 72 at one point late before having trouble at Phoenix. That was definitely a Saved By The Bell. 317. Spen posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF: Perhaps I can assist you a bit in understanding the points systems prior to 1972. Think of it as a chase, only with a few more races and more spread out. Let's take 1970 as a good example. The sixteen races that were 400 miles or longer are the "chase races" so to speak. They're worth way more points than a normal race (you'd actually get more points for finishing 34th at Charlotte than you would for winning Bowman-Gray), and consistently good results in those races are critical for winning the title. The other 32 races can be thought of as the lead-up races. They're not totally irrelevent, but if you do well enough in the big races, you can coast by on sixth place finishes in the minor ones. Isaac didn't win any of the major races, but he scored eight top fives and eleven top tens in those races, which put him almost exactly on the same pace as Allison, who also had eight top fives (and one win), but only ten top tens. Hylton actually got twelve top tens, but only three of those were top fives, negating any advantage. Petty had the worst luck of the four title contenders that year, as he only had nine top tens (even if three of them were wins). Actually, contrary to popular belief, Petty would not have won the title without the Darlington injury, as even if he won all the short track races he skipped, his team's engine failure in the World 600 guarenteed him a title loss. Allison actually outscored Isaac by six points in the big races, but he still lost the title due to a costly descision to skip the spring race at Richmond. If he'd finished 25th or better in that race (and even with Allison, there would only have been 27 cars in the race), he'd have won the title. But that race, plus Isaac beating him in a lot of the irrelevent races, while keeping pace in the important ones, allowed him to win the championship. And most of the earlier seasons were similar, though with fewer 'important' races as you go further back. 318. David posted: 08.10.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In 1968, NASCAR started to award points depending on race distance, not prize money. Point system was 50-49-48-... multiplied by 1 for events to 249 miles, 2 for events 250'399 miles and 3 for events 400 miles and more. System stopped from 50th place. This system was in use until the end of 1971 season." Straight from Wikipedia. And I guarantee its accuracy. Simple, no? 319. NascarCupFacts: posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 1951 season saw Herb Thomas win the Title over Fonty Flock by 146.2 points. The difference being Herb Thomas getting 1250 points for his Southern 500 win while Fontello Flock received 375 for his 8th place finish. How is this fair? Fonty Flock led every lap of 6 races in 1951. His Brother Tim would break this single season record in 1955 with 11 Flag-Flag wins. 320. Spen posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, if Herb had finished second in that race, Fonty would have won the title. But the Southern 500 was what truly mattered, and Herb won it. 321. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.10.2012 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the clarification guys. I was thinking this cha$e system isn't totally foreign as far as certain races holding much more weight. And thanks for the 1970 clarification. Still not as bad as '74. Good thing Petty, who probably would have won anyways, took that one home. Otherwise we would have a true asterisk champ. 322. 18fan posted: 08.11.2012 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can someone give me a refresher on the points standings from 1972-1974? 323. Spen posted: 08.11.2012 - 3:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) '72 and '73 basically gave 100 points for a win, with a 2-point drop thereafter, and then gave you points based on how many miles you'd completed on top of that. I'm not sure exactly how they converted the miles to points, but more often than not, whoever was running at the finish the most often would win the title, unless they were totally hopeless on track (ie: regardless of how much we joke about it, David Ragan would not have won the 2008 championship under that system). It did represent a major step forward, in that we gave the same amount of base points to every race, but it still favored longer races. 1974 requires a friggin supercomputer to understand. It had something to do with how many races you ran, how much money you earned, and how well you did in the Daytona 500. And I guess your finishing posistion must have had something to do with it too. But neither I nor anyone else at the time had any clue how you scored points that year. DSFF: I'd classify 1973 as a "we have to give somebody a title" year. 1950 even more so. That points battle was downright comical. 1970 could probably be called a "saved by the bell" year. Allison had been gaining ground on Isaac over the last few races, and was only 51 points out after Langley. If the scheduled season finale at Texas World hadn't been canceled, Allison stood a realistic chance of pulling it off. 324. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.11.2012 - 5:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't call 84 that ridiculous. Terry Labonte was just incomparably consistent. I would say 91 and 02 were saved by the bell years because we the fans were saved from farcical racing by those years ending. 325. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 7:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was one day off. McDuffie was killed on August 11th. R.I.P. 326. cjs3872 posted: 08.11.2012 - 10:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I also think there was a 25-point bonus for a win in 1973. However, since half the races that year were won by drivers that didn't run the full 28-race circuit that year (Pearson 11, Donohue 1, Baker 1, Brooks 1), those wins really had the effect of taking away wins, and thus the bonus points, from Yarborough and Petty, who were battling for the championship, which made it much easier for Benny Parsons, who only won once, but was able to win the title, in large part because of all the races David Pearson won. Pearson won 11 times in 1973, but only ran seven other races, but he took away wins from Petty and Yarborough that were vital in their battle for the championship. In addition to the 14 races mentioned, Bobby Allison, who won twice in 1973, did not run in the the World 600 that year because he was racing in that year's Indianapolis 500 (something he may have wished he didn't do because of all the things that happened there that year). 327. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) 1974 was all about how much money you earned which somehow translated into points. Since the Daytona 500 paid far and away the most money, the 1-2 finishers (which were Richard and Cale) were pretty much guaranteed a 1-2 finish in the points. Worse of all, they would add your overall money earned to each race's points total, leading to the infamous '74 Southern 500 where Richard finished something like 35th and earned more points for that event than Darrell Waltrip who finished Top 5. We rag on the Brian France system saying you only need to be in top form for 10 races, in '74 you only had to be in form for ONE race. Luckily Richard won and probably would have won anyways. And thanks for all the info on 1970. You have to love it when a NASCAR championship was decided by something like "a race got canceled". Oh well, better than it being decided by "the owner of the 2nd place car paid to have some more races added so one of his team cars could intentionally wreck the points leader and put him in a coma and effectively end his brilliant career". NASCAR Premier division championships: Herb Thomas 3 Buck Baker 1 I don't care what anyone says. 328. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The exact formula for 1974 was: Total Winnings (excluding contigency and qualifying awards) X Starts / 1000 329. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @327 The one consolation is that Baker didn't wreck Thomas, Speedy Thompson did. And he probably didn't mean to hurt him that badly. But that still doesn't make it right. 330. Daniel posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #33 Stephen Leicht Out using fastest 43: #36 Dave Blaney 331. Daniel posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correction to last post: #36 Tony Raines 332. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I spelled "contigency" wrong. Darn it. I just hate to misspell things. That's just how I am. Anyway, in 1974, Cale Yarborough actually traded the lead with Petty several times midseason. That is, if race-database.com's sources are correct. It's kind of ironic that in the one year the Daytona 500 would determine the championship, it was the most competitive 500 ever. Part of the reason is that it was shortened because of the energy crisis that year. But imagine how much history would be different if Donnie Allison--who dominated the race only to have two of his tires blown out--had won? 333. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) Using the '74 points system, Earnhardt probably wins the 1998 championship. How insane is that? Since contingency awards aren't counted, Gordon's two No Bull Million awards he won that year (the Brickyard 400, and the Southern 500) wouldn't count. 1998 was his worst season. At least in 1982 he was competitive before his car would inevitably fail, leading over 1000 laps. 334. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What about 1992? Earnhardt had a 12th-place points finish and just one win, and a controversial one at that. 335. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I want to dedicate my final post on this race to the fan who died Sunday. R.I.P. Brian Franklin Zimmerman March 26, 1971 - August 5, 2012 336. startandparkfan posted: 08.19.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeleys car was a TBR car. 337. Jordan posted: 08.22.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why did Raines drive the #36 instead of Blaney here? 338. Teren posted: 01.24.2013 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trouble Biffle, Kenseth, Jimmine, and Hamlin into the wall! Ouch for 4 Drivers! 339. Nascar24NBC posted: 01.31.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to go Jeff Gordon! 340. NascarTheGameInsideLiner2012 posted: 04.23.2014 - 12:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Congrats to Jeff 1. Jeff Drive to End Hunger 2. Kasey kahne State Farm 3. Martin Truex Jr Napa Auto Parts 4. Brad K Miller Lite 5. Tony Stewart Office Depot 341. Minnowfur posted: 12.02.2015 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 18 car crashed then came back in the race 24 laps down so how did he DNF? 342. Braindead Zombie posted: 03.02.2016 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 10 S&Ps in this race, probably the most ever that I can recall. 343. Anonymous posted: 05.06.2016 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Wes Townley should be down as Withdrawn from White's 32 car 344. Anonymous posted: 03.30.2018 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) CORRECTION - WD wasn't listed anyway, but John Wes Townley should be a Driver Change in the 32. He started practice in the car, but crashed out and was replaced by White. 345. RaceFanX posted: 04.14.2018 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although he didn't make it to qualifying before he decided to give up the #32 Ford this would John Wes Townley's only attempt to race in the Cup series. Townley's decision to step aside opened the door for Truck series standout Jason White to make his second and final Cup start instead, his 31st-place finish would be the better of his two Pocono outings with Frank Stoddard's team. 346. SweetRich posted: 03.13.2020 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The commentators for the race were Allen Bestwick, Dale Jarrett and Andy Petree. The pit road reporters were Jerry Punch, Mike Massaro, Dave Burns and Vince Welch. And in The ESPN Pit Studio were Nicole Briscoe, Rusty Wallace, Brad Daugherty and Ray Evernham. 347. SweetRich posted: 07.07.2020 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The second and final career cup series race for Jason White. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: