|| *Comments on the 2012 Finger Lakes 355 at the Glen:* View the most recent comment <#319> | Post a comment <#post> 1. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's time for another week of exciting commentary. 2. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright Brad, good qualifying run and you have been looking good this weekend. Let's go ahead and get this road course win knocked out to complete the track grand slam. You have short track wins (Bristol twice), plate wins (Dega twice), intermediate wins (Kansas, Kentucky), and an oddball win (Pocono). Let's finish this off right here. Then we can focus on the other stuff, like a Daytona 500 win, a Darlington win, a World 600 win, and a Brickyard 400 win (at which point hopefully he won't point his ass quite so high while kissing the bricks like after his NWide win there. And oh yeah, let's get the Cup title. That is #1. If you win championships, your records in the big races don't really matter. See Wallace, Rusty: first ballot HOFer. 3. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Good point. They certainly didn't waste time getting Wallace in. 4. Bronco posted: 08.11.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can't believe that David Reutimann got replaced from the #10 ride and wasn't the obvious choice to replace AJ in the #22. I don't think Sam will never run that car anywhere close to where it should be. This is the race where JJ probably takes over the point lead heading into the chase, as the other three - Earnhardt Jr, Kenseth and Biffle are all weak on road courses. 5. Jose posted: 08.11.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good qualifying run by Michael McDowell. Anyone know if the #98 is gonna run the full race? 6. cjs3872 posted: 08.11.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, McDowell won't be running the full race, but then that's probably the case with about eight or nine others. I see both of Tommy Baldwin's cars parking, and all those not in the top 35 S&P'ing. Some of the driver selections are dead giveaways, such as J.J. Yeley in the 10 car and Jason Leffler in the 49 car. It looks to me like there will be 10 cars doing start-and-parks in this race, 11 if the 13 does a start-and-park. 7. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is the #7 gonna finish last? I just got home 20 min ago, what happened? 8. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.11.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) reutimann was replaced in the #10 this week by his choice-he was told the car would have to start and park this week and he for some reason thinks that he's too good to have to start and park, so he would rather sit and home and watch the race on tv. 9. Smiff_99 posted: 08.11.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Truex had a braking fail entering turn one on lap 1, slid across the grass on the inside of the corner....and slid to a stop directly in front of Danica. When she isn't screwing up, she's getting taken out by other people's screw-ups....lol 10. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nobody to blame but yourself for that one Joey. 11. Bronco posted: 08.11.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great to see Carl win again, never mind that it's just Nationwide. He now has wins at all three Nationwide venues - Montreal, Road America and Watkins Glen. Still needs a Daytona/Talladega win in Cup/Nationwide though. 12. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.11.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) surprised carl remembered how to do a backflip, it's been so long. wish a nns regular would have won, but oh well, at least instead of kyle or brad it was one of the cup guys who won't be a threat to win anytime soon. not sure what happened to joey on that last restart, but he'll get his chance at carl tommorrow. 13. cjs3872 posted: 08.11.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Engine trouble, Dave#38 Fan. Just after moving into fourth place, Joey Logano began to run into engine trouble. And as for your comment about Carl Edwards doing backflips, did you hear Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. needle him about that, both in his post-race interview, and in victory lane. Now that we know that Stenhouse can also do backflips, I wonder how long it will be before he starts doing them in his victory celebrations, though Stenhouse might do more than one standing backflip if he starts doing them after his wins, knowing how much of a daredevil he is. In fact, I wonder if Edwards and Stenhouse had finished 1-2 if we wouldn't have seen both of them do one in front of the grandstands. Well, only time will tell on that. I mentioned this last year in regards to both the Nationwide Series and the Truck Series, but late last year, the Truck Series standings was led by a driver (James Buescher) that hadn't won a race, and Eliott Sadler led the Nationwide points standings for a good long while without winning. Well, with San Hornish, Jr. moving up to third in the points, and within striking distance of the two leaders without winning a race this year, the question must be brought up again, might this be the year we see a driver win a championship in a major NASCAR series without winning a race in his championship season? If Hornish did so this year, it wouldn't be the first time that a Roger Penske driver won a championship in a major series without a win. Remember that it was Penske that Tom Sneva drove for in 1978 when he won the USAC IndyCar title without ever winning a race that year 14. LordLowe posted: 08.11.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Coming up next is the backflip challenge between Carl Edwards, Ricky Stenhouse Jr & CJS. 15. cjs3872 posted: 08.11.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drop me out of that for now LordLowe, but the other two I can get. Like I said, when Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. showed us his backflip, which SPEED put on national television on one of it's segments on NASCAR Race Hub a couple of weeks ago, you knew that he was probably going to needle Carl Edwards about whether he could do his after so long. And I wouldn't have been surprised if they had finished 1-2 if they both would have done one for the crowd, if Stenhouse wants to do backflips to celebrate his wins, or if he's doing just for kicks. But I don't think he would go through the trouble to get to where he could do one if he didn't have plans for it himself. I'd like to see Stenhouse do one, just to see how he would approach it. As much of a daredevil as he is, he might try to add to it. 16. JG24FanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anybody remember Richard Petty ribbing Geoff Bodine with his "Save The South-Teach a Yankee to Drive" Bumper Sticker? 17. JG24FanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 12 list for the week! The 12 greatest Jeff Gordon wins: 1. #85 Atlanta-Modern victory Record breaker over The King of Kings. 2. #70 Daytona 500-Winning outside pass on Junior wasn't even mentioned by D.W. 3. #38 Southern 500-The only 4 straight streak ever in a Superspeedway event. 4. #2 Brickyard 400-The First will always be the greatest with 350,000+ fans. 5. #43 Daytona 500-The yellow line rule exist because of Jeff's "brave" move. 6. #83 Phoenix-The final race at the original Phoenix is a classic.Too bad. 7. #51 Sonoma-One of the ultimate Nascar feats of 6 straight on Road-Courses. 8. #71 Martinsville-His best comeback in any race yet. 9. #86 Pocono-Jimmie Johnson gifting a win to Gordon this way was sweet. 10.#17 Dover-sweeps the final three 500 Mile events at Dover.Very underrated. 11.#59 Bristol Night-This race is to Gordon what Daytona was to Dale.Sort of. 12.#78 Darlington-Unceremoniously breaks the record for Southern 500 wins. 18. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That bumper sticker was a classic. And Lord Lowe has a point. Gordon isn't out of title contention yet. What if he makes the playoffs then catches fire like Smoke? Then you will owe us 24 backflips cjs. 19. David posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @16 I know of that incident, but I don't know what caused it. Wasn't it in 1986? 20. Schroeder51 posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1982, I think. I believe it was after the Firecracker 400 that year at Daytona where Bodine wrecked him. But I could be wrong... 21. Schroeder51 posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #17 Gordon didn't win the last 3 500 mile Dover events...he won 3 of the last 4. He could have won the last one in 1997, but he ran into the back of Dale Jarrett and wound up with a broken radiator. Just thought I'd point that out. 22. JG24FanForever posted: 08.11.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #21 Damnit, i'm always off on something.That lessens the win for me then. Revised The 12 greatest Jeff Gordon wins: 1. #85 Atlanta-Modern victory Record breaker over The King of Kings. 2. #70 Daytona 500-Winning outside pass on Junior wasn't even mentioned by D.W. 3. #38 Southern 500-The only 4 straight streak ever in a Superspeedway event. 4. #2 Brickyard 400-The First will always be the greatest with 350,000+ fans. 5. #43 Daytona 500-The yellow line rule exist because of Jeff's "brave" move. 6. #83 Phoenix-The final race at the original Phoenix is a classic.Too bad. 7. #51 Sonoma-One of the ultimate Nascar feats of 6 straight on Road-Courses. 8. #71 Martinsville-His best comeback in any race yet. 9. #86 Pocono-Jimmie Johnson gifting a win to Gordon this way was sweet. 10.#42 Atlanta-13th win of 1998-26th Top 5 of 1998-2.0 avg. in final 20 races. 11.#59 Bristol Night-This race is to Gordon what Daytona was to Dale.Sort of. 12.#78 "Southern 500"-Unceremoniously breaks the record for Southern 500 wins 23. Alex posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big thanks to TSN here in Canada for not showing the Cup race until 11 tomorrow and the Nationwide race at 7:00. Looks like I'm trying out RaceBuddy tomorrow. 24. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, the '82 Firecracker 400. Richard slowed down to avoid a wreck in front of him, had it missed, then Geoff came through still going full speed and wrecked both of them. 25. Brad24 posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing I noticed about this race that's different, is the name. This is the first time in a long time, if not ever, that the distance of the race (355k) is actually part of the name of the race. It's always been "(Sponsor Title) at the Glen." 26. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to know what all you experts think are the Smartest,Mentally Toughest,Luckiest,most underachieving,and best natural drivers ever. Just to make brief list about who I think are who. Smartest: David Pearson Richard Petty Dale Earnhardt Jeff Gordon Darrell Waltrip Mentally Toughest: Dale Earnhardt Jimmie Johnson David Pearson Cale Yarborough Buck Baker Luckiest: Honestly IDK how you quantify this. Underachieving: Buddy Baker Kyle Petty Dale Jr. Carl Edwards Joey Logano Best Natural Drivers: Jeff Gordon Dale Earnhardt David Pearson Richard Petty Tony Stewart Please give me your input. 27. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Brad24, Phoenix has been using kilometer distances for just about every one of its races since Phoenix was added to the Cup schedule in 1988. 28. joey2448 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would say Jimmie Johnson would be one of those categorized in "Luckiest". 29. LordLowe posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am going to make a list of some major Choke Jobs in NFL History 1986 Cleveland Browns/The Drive 1987 Cleveland Browns/The Fumble 1988 Cincinnati Bengals/They should have found a way to counter Montana's game winning drive 1990 Buffalo Bills/Wide Right Baby 1992 Houston Oilers/How the Hell do you blow a 35-3 lead 1994 Fake Spike Game 1998 Minnesota Vikings/How on earth did Gary Anderson blow that Field goal. 2003 Carolina Panthers/John Kasay screwed up big time 2007 New England Patriots/The Patriots won every game except that matters. 30. RaceFanX posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the first time this race has had a traditional-sounding name as the Finger Lakes 355. All the previous NASCAR Cup races here since the track's 1986 revival were the "(race sponsor) at the Glen." Actually I hope they get a sponsor and go back to that. Odd race names at par for the course at the Glen, back in 1965 the last race at the track before 1986 was the Watkins Glen 151.8. 31. Brad24 posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872: I was talking about this particular race at Watkins Glen. The distance of the race has never advertised for this race. 32. Mr X posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Amen #23 33. Alex posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does RaceBuddy still run when races are on ESPN? 34. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as NFL choke jobs, I can think of 3 Favre chokes right off the top of my head. The '07 and '09 NFC championship games where he threw back breaking picks late, then that playoff game at Philly (I wanna say the Divisional round '03 but I could be wrong) when he lofted up a floater to...... God knows who. It landed easily in the arms of a Philly player. And for the "wide right" game, the real choke was by Buffalo's defense. They let the Giants control the ball for 3/4 of the game, keeping Jim Kelley and that awesome offense on the sidelines, highlighted by that drive that took up almost an entire quarter where they converted 3 or 4 long 3rd downs, missing a ton of tackles. 35. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Btw, this race will always be "The Bud At The Glen" to me. Just rolls off your tongue. 36. Eric posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, I wouldn't put the wide right choke job high on NFL choke jobs despite happening in the super bowl. The problem with wide right is the kick is 47 yards and field goal kicks from that distance are not cheap shots. That kick also happened at a time making 47 yards or longer kicker. Scott Norwood in 1990 only made 69 percent of his field goals. Scott did make 48 yard kick during the season, but was not known for his leg. Scott's longest field for the 1990-1991 playoffs he made was 39 yards. I watched the whole Super Bowl and there was problem with the Bills on that drive. It seemed like they took a little too much time on that drive. That meant they could have made the kick closer. Scott Norwood in this case didn't sudden decline in performance due to pressure. That is difference than Nate Kaeding of the Chargers. Nate Kaeding in his NFL career makes over 86 percent of his field goals during the regular season, but only makes 53 percent of his field goals during the postseason. 37. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman trying to sound smart and failing alert! Also, Norwood never made a field goal on natural grass that long in his career. I agree that Super Bowl was a choke, but not by Scott. It was a team failure. 38. Eric posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, Cincinnati Bengals didn't have a lot of time to counter attack the game winning drive when they got back on offense. I recalled there being only 34 seconds left when the 49ers scored. If you talk about defense, the real problem is The Bengals gave Montana too much time when they scored. Sam Wyche thought the Bengals scored too soon because he was on Bill Walsh's coaching staff before being the Bengals head coach. The other problem is the 49ers in 1989 had a memorable comeback against the Philadelphia Eagles. That Eagle team had more star players on defense than the 1988 Bengals did. That 1989 Eagle time had Reggie White, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner, Eric Allen, and Jerome Brown in their prime. I brought up the 1989 Eagles because the Eagle defenses of the late late 1980's and early 1990's had great defenses year in and year out. My point the eagles is if Montana can manage a great comeback against a great eagles defense, The 1988 Bengals defense would have problems with Montana in the 4th quarter. I saw Montana on Television in his prime with the 49ers. Joe Montana was one of the best quarterback ever with the game on the line. The best way to deal with Montana in the 4th quarter is make sure there isn't a lot of time left on the clock when he gets the ball back. 39. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch is whipping some ass. 40. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Sherriff of racing stupidity strikes again. 41. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch dominating and looking untouchable early. That is typically not a good sign for Kyle Busch. 42. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What happened with Vickers? I didn't get to see the start... 43. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Vickers lost his engine on the first lap. Jason Leffler goes through the gravel. Why is he back in a Cup car? At a road course of all places? I'm honestly surprised he hasn't parked yet. 44. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A first lap engine failure for a contending team on a road course usually means a missed shift. 45. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks Rusty. I wonder if Kyle's 2012 bad luck will come in and ruin it for him. I'd like to see him have a good finish, just to keep the Wild Card battle interesting. 46. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First caution is for McMurray crashing. 47. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah man, McMurray's got big damage... 48. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution #1 This changes everything.. 49. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy shit the left rear wheel just flew off Kurt Busch's car. 50. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt just lost his left rear wheel. Since James Finch is so fire happy, I'm willing to bet that there is gonna be a tire changer looking for work pretty soon. 51. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The #51 team just can't buy a break this season. Also too bad for Brain Vickers, I believed for sure he would of been a threat for the win or at least a Top-5. Bummer :( 52. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt ran 30+ laps on that tire, I'm guessing something just broke on the car, hence why Kurt went behind the wall. Really tough break, that 51 was moving forward. 53. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were rumors at the end of last year that the #22 team was so unhappy with having to deal with Kurt's attitude, they were intentionally doing things just to piss him off (constantly being late to inspection? Running out of gas at Phoenix? Breaking a tranmission at Homestead of all place? Makes sense). Is Phoenix Racing doing the same thing? 54. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, right after I posted that, they said that he hadn't pitted yet when that happened. My bad. With Montoya and Kyle being the top two, it will be interesting to see how hard they try to get by the guys who stayed out. 55. jabber1990 posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt went behind the wall cause running on 3 tires is bad for the car 56. jabber1990 posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) at the Glen do they have to build a special car, or do they just move the fuel cell 180 degrees? 57. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Phoenix Racing crew loves Kurt, they all voted to bring him back after the suspension. You're just being silly DSFF. Besides, a small team isn't going to be sabatoging their own equipment. 58. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Juan Montoya is done. 59. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Montoya overdrove it, lol 60. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Logano too? Parts failures are happening left and right. 61. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is like an Old School race with all the mechanical issues. 62. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a pretty decent race.I would like to see Gordon's strategy play out in his favor though. 63. Paul posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What strategy is Gordon playing? I'm not watching on tv, but my ESPN app says he's just lost 4 positions. 64. Paul posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow if I didn't know any better I'd say he's trying to make it on 2 stops. 65. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon is playing the "Lets restart in front of everybody who's on fresh tires" strategy. 66. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @53 I really find that hard to believe DSFF, sure the 22 team members were sick of Kurt's tirades(Rodger and Steve Addington certainly were)but sabotaging their own equipment just to piss him off is really out there. Besides if someone found out they'd surely would spilled the beans to Rodger and the guilty crew members would of been out the door along with Kurt. 67. Paul posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG, thank you. Personally I liked the "run up front without abusing the equipment and making a late charge" strategy better, but whatever... 68. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So now we can add the 11 car and the 31 car to the mechanical failures of the day. And Truex is out of gas. 69. Draco (Candraco) posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stewart has now cracked the top 3 with great strategy playing out... 70. Paul posted: 08.12.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like that there's a series of drivers falling out with mechanical issues. It adds some non-pit stop strategy into the race. The teams have to prepare their cars great and it shows which drivers truly know how to run a road course race. That's the strategy I like to see. I'm surprised Burton fell out considering he's one of the most conservative drivers out there. 71. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somebody come up with a list of the ways Gustafson has f'ed up JG's cars. 72. Schroeder51 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart's day is ruined. 73. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart is done. 74. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart making a mistake like that on a road course is surprising. 75. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a tough racetrack. Gordon and Stewart are the two best stock car road racers ever, and they have both made unforced errors to eliminate themselves from winning contention in the last 5 years. What does that tell ya? 76. Schroeder51 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hate to say it, but I think Kyle wins this race and Jeff Gordon's Chase chances end officially today. 77. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Brad, that is two days in a row you are gonna lose cause you are too soft on restarts. 78. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Gordon has passed Scott Speed. 79. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two days in a row Brad had the best car. Carl wanted it more yesterday, Kyle wanted it more today. 80. Schroeder51 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy shit! Kyle Busch got wrecked on the last lap! 81. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy Cow!! 82. Schroeder51 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...and Jeff too. I guess Newman is going to be the one who ends up getting the final wild card. 83. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love the road courses. 84. JakeTV370 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Incredible Finish. Tough break for Jeff Gordon, though. 85. joey2448 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OH THAT WAS SO F***ING EPIC!!!! AMAZING! 86. jabber1990 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) WHAT A LAP! 87. beau posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) that was epic. 88. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Easily the most exciting finish of the year. 89. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian France wants more WOW Moments? Race at more damn road courses. 90. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Amazing Finish, too bad for Shrub. Your da man Marcos! 91. murb posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just have one thing to say about this race. THAT. WAS. BADASS. 92. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) holy shit! that was easily the best last lap of the year (so far). it was so funny to see last years top three finishers here be the same three guys going for the win this year. 93. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) oh crap i just realized-throw ambrose into the wild card discussion now. 94. Smiff_99 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was EASILY one of the most INCREDIBLE last laps I have EVER seen.....I'm blown away right now....WHYYYY can't we run 6-8 Road Courses a year? WHYYY!!?? lol 95. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't see why anyboy wouldn't want more road courses on the schedule. Time to bring in Road America and Montreal. 96. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Nightmare continues. 97. David posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tough break for Jeff Gordon, though." Seems to me I've heard that before. 98. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) THAT is why I continue to watch NASCAR, to see a lap like that. Like Brad said, that is how racing should be. If he would just quit being so damn passive on restarts. But that was epic. Maybe they just need to start greasing the tracks up. An oiled up track is what provided an epic shootout betwwen Dale and Mark at Sears Point in 1995 after a pretty boring race. 99. Schroeder51 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't see Ambrose getting the final wild card unless unless he goes on an incredible hot streak and Kyle Busch, Jeff Gordon, and Ryan Newman have multiple DNFs in a row. He's pretty much a full race behind all 3 of them. I'm going to say Newman is the one who gets the wild card. I just see that happening. 100. NadeauFan91 posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I got home and turned the TV on going into one, white flag... ...I approve of this... "This is how racing should be." - BK 101. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great ending for what was mostly a underwhelming race. Good for Ambrose, but I doubt he can pull off a Chase run. This is his first top 5 of the season. But he is pretty good at Michigan, so a good run next week could be huge. This race may cost Kyle Busch the Chase, but I'm guessing he may have a shot still. 102. David posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @98 Same here, except I had to listen to it. That finish was 1990 Daytona 500-esque. 103. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Maybe they just need to start greasing the tracks up." NO. Although this was maybe the best Cup road course battle on radial tires (it's basically between this and the '93 Sears Point battle between Bodine, Irvan, and Rudd, but the zaniness there was with about 15 laps to go, not at the end), that sounds too reminiscent of what Formula One was talking about doing by adding artificial rain to the track to create more excitement, and that would really just be another annoying gimmick... "I'm going to say Newman is the one who gets the wild card. I just see that happening." Kyle could still EASILY win Bristol or Richmond to do it, although I might see Newman being the highest in points. Since I don't think Gordon will win at Bristol and Richmond (the fall races at those tracks were never his best), I think he is out of it unless he's really consistent and Kyle doesn't win. 104. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon shows class by granting an interview after a brutal disappointment, and Kyle typically storms off. Jeff just 10 point back. He'll be fine. 105. BON GO posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are u kidding me. I dont care how great the finish was, sorry. Im looking chase picture only.Yet another good finish taken from Gordon at this track. Busch is making the chase. This week proved it me. Either retire or get a better team. 106. loomer posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nascar really wanted a green flag finish. How did they not call a caution with an extremely unsafe track? 107. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Kyle's 4 points behind Newman and 4 ahead of Gordon. He could still theoretically take this on consistency alone... 108. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was joking about intentionally greasing tracks up. 109. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not a bad race by Hornish, top 5. Interesting that Sam was complete pants on road courses in the IRL but seems to be one of the best road course racers in NASCAR right now. 110. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nascar really wanted a green flag finish. How did they not call a caution with an extremely unsafe track?" You've got a point there. Either Nemechek or Labonte very easily could have been a caution and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Since that would have created a GWC, you're basically comparing contrivance to contrivance. If the finish is going to be contrived either way, I guess you go for whichever would be more exciting, which was this... 111. Paul posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I hate that Gordon wound up 21st, I'll gladly take a finish like that in exchange for an Ambrose win and Kyle not getting that 2nd wildcard. Gordon's now 8 points behind Newman (I think), but some of his best tracks in recent years are coming up. That and Ambrose entering the mix had really made this wildcard race exciting. Once again, congrats to Marcos Ambrose on getting his 2nd career Cup win, one year after his first win. Once again, Marcos, Brad, and Kyle had the best cars. And you guys are right, road courses are awesome! It wouldnt break my heart if Road America and Montreal were both added to the Cup schedule, with one in the Chase. 112. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) gasp, how dare we perfect "43 best drivers in the world" have to race on a slippery surface. 113. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All the drivers are ribbing NASCAR for not throwing a caution. It sucks to see a former champ like Bobby Labonte be nothing but a roadblock like this. 114. joey2448 posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reminds me of some of those old-school road races, Rusty Wallace and Ricky Rudd type duels. Just guys sliding all over the place, not giving a crap and going for the win... 115. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Great ending for what was mostly an underwhelming race." No way. Stewart driving up from the back of the front, typically interesting pit strategies, all kinds of mechanical issues (unseen on ovals for the most part in the past few years), the constant possibility of rain shortening the race, Stewart's unassisted spin from 2nd, and Ambrose, Brad, and Kyle were dicing it up quite nicely prior to the last lap as well with their insane power restarts. Ambrose passing two cars in one corner and Kyle's three-wide pass were two of the best Cup road course passes in years... Oh, and Junior costing himself the points lead with his spin was hilarious... GREAT race, and not just the last lap... Only great race of the season, although Martinsville might have been without the awful finish. 116. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "All the drivers are ribbing NASCAR for not throwing a caution. It sucks to see a former champ like Bobby Labonte be nothing but a roadblock like this." Well, he's been a roadblock since 2005, and not saying 2003 is being generous... Yeah, that would have been a very justifiable caution but the GWC would have caused even more chaos AND led to a less exciting finish I think. I think in this instance it was correct to not throw a caution (although it would have been correct to throw a caution in the days when GWC did not exist). If it had been with 5 or 6 laps left, it probably should have been an auto-caution. 117. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least there was... oh, blast it all, there was nothing good to this to me. A professional racer would not have kept going like Kyle did. 118. 18fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For all the times that NASCAR throws bogus cautions, they picked a bad time to decide to not throw the caution. It was extremely obvious that there was fluid on the racetrack. 119. I love Japan posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I only saw the last three laps. It was worth it. Best finish I have seen. Simply amazing. 120. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who was leaking oil? Labonte or Kyle? Brad says Kyle was, but everybody else seems to be saying Labonte was... And Nico, you have to at least like that Kyle didn't win so that Gordon is still in the chase for the second wildcard spot... 121. 18fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It wasn't Kyle that was leaking fluid, it was the 47 car which blew up on the frontstretch and ran the entire lap putting oil everywhere. It looked like Kyle was leaking from Brad's perspective, but it was the 47 car putting all the oil on the racetrack. 122. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race may match Martinsville as the best race of the year. This had a better ending and was a good race, but Martinsville was better from start to finish. 123. Rusty posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm a little annoyed by Ricky Craven keep saying playoffs on Sportscenter.It just feels like NASCAR is more and more trying to look like another sport rather than be its' own. If the Chase were a playoff, the last guy in points would be eliminated in every race. 124. The Final Gear posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) KYLE BUSCH GOT SCREWED!! Other than that, phenomenal finish. I think this is the straw that breaks the camels back and Road America is added to the 2014-2015 season schedule. I love road course racing and NASCAR can have some great road course racing on certain tracks, the Glen is one of them. That was easily one of the best races of the season from start to finish, action everywhere. I think even the oval purists will agree that the race was amazing. NASCAR did choose a bad time not to throw a yellow when they are trigger happy for throwing yellows. Kyle Busch has a legitimate reason to be angry at NASCAR, but not Kez because it was the last lap and he literally couldn't do anything but drive into the back of him because of the ovals. Also, great finish and weekend for Sam Hornish Jr!! 125. David posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @123 That annoys you too? It annoys the HECK out of me. If it was a playoff, they would also run only the top-12 cars on the track. 126. ch posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about the 87 car and Joe Nemechek!!! Ran top 25 and lead lap a good part of the day, too bad about his problem at the end. Either way a nice top 30 finish. Great top 20's for Speed / Mears / Gilliland. Landon Cassill gets his best Road Course finish by staying out of trouble. Best finish for the 33 since Joe Falk took over. Looks like it will be Stephen Leicht will be the 2012 ROTY unless FRM starts running a few more full races with Wise. Leicht really had a career saving moment at Richmond last year running top 20 for TBR. I don't think he would have gotten the 33 without that performance. Also his first lead lap finish. 127. Anonymous posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great race and fantastic finish. Five lead changes on the last lap. Cant wait for Montreal. Too bad cup does not run there, 128. ch posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor corrections: 19 - Humphrey Smith Racing 27 - Rheem / Menards 29 - Budweiser Folds of Honor 33 - Circle Sport 49 - Robinson-Blakeney Racing 95 - Leavine Family Racing 129. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great run by Regan Smith. 130. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For our Midwest fans, let's give them better racing. Take the 4 combined dates from Chicago, Kansas, and Kentucky off the schedule. Replace the with Iowa (2x), Road America (Wisconsinites rule), and Mid Ohio (road course!!!!!). Also, leave Fontana for good and go to Sears Point twice. Also, since our New England fans are awesome and support stock car racing like they do, scrap both NHMS races and go to Lime Rock Park in Connecticut. Better racing for you smart mouth Yankee bastards :) 131. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes I know none of that will ever happen, especially with all the money they have poured into Kansas and that damn Casino. 132. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And while we are at it, give Charlotte's Fall date to Atlanta. I would give away their first date cause the racing there sucks so bad, but it is a 52 year old crown jewel, so we have to keep it no matter how bad the racing there is (and it is bad). 133. David posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm from Kansas, and I feel so bad about that casino. It is the only real reason they gave a second date to that track. Casinos are for hopeless and/or extremely fortunate individuals. They are a waste of money. I guess I'm too loyal to Kansas (my first race weekend attended was there) to say that the track has bad racing. But the fan experience was great. 134. irony posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sweet Jesus do NOT add Mid-Ohio. The old Cleveland air port circuit would be great though. 135. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exciting finish, terrible luck for Kyle. Sucks for him to leave another possible win on the table. It's also really not good for NASCAR to have all of the drivers ripping on them for letting the race run green while the track was covered in oil, but can you imagine the fan outrage if they had thrown the yellow before Kyle gave up the lead on the last lap? It was obvious that the track was unsafe at that point, and if they had seen Labonte blowing up it would have made as much sense to bring out the caution then as it would at any other point on the last lap. But since they already cost, by all logic considering the lead he had before he got in the oil, the rightful winner the race, they had to let it play out. They couldn't throw the caution halfway through that last lap because the race was already a sham. You might as well give everyone an exciting finish if you've established that these are conditions you're comfortable having your drivers racing in. I, for one, would have been pissed if either Keselowski or Ambrose got the win just for being ahead after the inner loop or something. 136. Anonymous posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good to see Scott Speed can still wheel a stock car. He ran great at Montreal last year for KHI as well. Too bad he's stuck at Levine-Fenton for another year. 137. 1995z71 posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After going the first 20 races this season without a Top 10. Regan Smith gets back to back Tops 10s (both 9th place). Juan Pablo Montoya gets back to back poles. Marcos Ambrose gets back to back Top 10s as well (10th & 1st). Winning back to back races at the Glen. Drivers like Denny Hamlin & Jason Leffler blew up & stopped but Bobby "Bonehead" Labonte decides to drive at the way around the track leaking oil. Sam Hornish Jr gets his 3rd career Top 5 finish. Michael Waltrip Racing gets two cars in the Top 10 for the tenth time this season. First lead lap finish for Stephen Leicht. First Top 20 finish for Scott Speed since Charlotte in October 2010. I think that covers all the random footnotes I know about this race, haha. P.S. One of my Top 10 favorite race finishes of all time! Amazing race. Mad respect for BK saying he loved this style of racing while Powdy Busch goes home crying again. 138. 10andJoe posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, how about we swap Atlanta's current date and Darlington's too (hint hint, Labor Day, hint...) Also, to CJS and start-and-park predictions (in particular with regards to the 49), I've heard crow tastes good with a little ketchup... ;). As there were only 5 S&Ps. (Blaney's retirement was legit - he broke a track bar.) 139. 1995z71 posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ADMIN: Can we please start deleting all of these off-topic posts? (Talking about NNS races, NFL chokes & admin requests) 140. 1995z71 posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #138: even better I actually think there was only 4 S&Ps (19,10,26,& 98). I dont think the #30 S&P, I think that one was legal too. Could be wrong about that tho. 141. 10andJoe posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The off-topic posts are part of the discussion here as a community, no reason to delete them! And unfortunatly the 30 start-and-parked; they crashed their primary car in the first practice and their backup was their Michigan car, so they couldn't risk tearing it up. 142. ch posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty sure that the 30 planned to run the whole race at the start of the week, but the crash in practice set them back to S&P. Pretty surprised that Phil Parsons allowed McDowell to start 11th instead of dropping to the back. 143. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That last lap, with the exception of Kyle spinning, is what I was talking about with my "we don't want to watch the drivers wreck, we want to watch them ALMOST wreck" proclamation. How about both Brad and Ambrose going through the inner loop DEAD SIDEWAYS THE ENTIRE WAY? And they spent more time in the grass than the track! Then they traded bumps in the next two corners. Just awesome and what we want to see. Reminds me of the 2003 Darlington Spring race, bumping, beating, banging, and bbig smiles on all concerned afterwards. If only Kyle hadn't cut across Brad's nose. Imagine if it were all 3 of them for the entire last lap! 144. LordLowe posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Here is a message to all those whinny rich little primma-donna drivers that are bashing NASCAR for not throwing out the caution. SHUT THE HELL UP AND RACE. 145. Eric posted: 08.12.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, Some Casinos do offer more than gambling. The Casinos the state I live do have shows time to time. I am talking about Comedy shows and music acts. Some of the music acts though are haven't had new hit songs in years such as ZZ Top. I saw commercials for Pam Tillis and Lorrie Morgan in stage at a casino earlier this year matter of fact. You are correct about Casinos in general in terms of Gambling when it comes to gambling machines. 146. Anonymous posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just want to know does anyone think Dale Jr win again soon or will i have to wait for many years? 147. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #146 After today June seems to have lost the Title and the confidence to be a contender for the rest of the season. About the race: Good to see Gordon start 12th move up to 4th then back to 29th then back up to 4th then back to 25th then back to 9th and then he fades on oil in the final turn and crashes out of the Top 20. Simply incredible. The ending was very dissapointing because I hate to see Kyle crush a race then wreck on the last lap because of oil,but the finish between The Road Warrior(Ambrose) and Bad Brad was one of the more exciting Nascar battles i've seen in 10 years. 148. Red posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's amazing how awesome NASCAR can be when the race is in the hands of the drivers and the handling of the cars is determined by chassis setup and mechanical grip. A far cry from the aero push track position festivals that we see on most of the speedways. Of course it'll never happen, but NASCAR could pretty much cure all its ills by running a series of short tracks, road courses, one mile ovals, and Darlington. Both fans and drivers alike prefer sliding around, beatin' and bangin' racing, and it's just ashame that's not what we get. IMO, there are eight races a year that still feel like genuine, old school NASCAR, and not coincidentally those are the ones I look forward to the most: Martinsville x2 Richmond x2 Sonoma Watkins Glen Darlington Atlanta DSFF, I agree completely that Charlotte should be taken off the schedule, but I'd even include the 600 in that, since CMS is probably the worst track on the schedule, save for maybe Indy. Give the 600 to Atlanta under the promise that it will never be revaped, move the Southern 500 back to Labor Day, and start a great new tradition for Memorial Day weekend. As long as I'm talking fantasy land, here would be my fantasy schedule: Daytona x2 Talladega x2 Martinsville x2 Bristol x2 (old version) Richmond x2 Iowa x2 IRP x2 Darlington x2 Rockingham x2 Dover x2 Atlanta x2 (no repaves) Watkins Glen x2 Sonoma x2 (one in each configuration) Road America Montreal Phoenix Pocono Fontana (no repaves) Homestead Pikes Peak Milwaukee 4 Plate Races 10 Short Tracks 6 Road Courses 4 Banked Milers 3 Flat Milers 4 Intermediates 1 Flat Speedway 2 Darlingtons 149. Anonymous posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan smith might have some magic with Todd berrier. Great runs the past few weeks. 150. jr88fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ #26, Here are some lucky drivers: Derrike Cope JJ Yeley (just for getting a Cup ride) Buddy Baker Brian Vickers Brett Bodine Ernie Irvan 151. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I did not see the race today, as I went swimming for the first time since 1983, but judging from what I saw on the highlights, it seems that what I said regarding NASCAR's ability to run a race is accurate. They need to fire those in charge and put someone like Wally Dallenbach, Jr. in charge. I mean, the decisioonto run the last couple of laps on anoily track may have knocked not one, but two drivers out of the Chase, but Ryan Newman will certainly take it, if this helps him get in. They're as bad at running a race as Alan Gustafson is at calling one (and I see he was up to his old tricks, as well). 152. jr88fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Dale Jr's surprising top-10 RC run before he spun. 153. JG24FanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 Yeah, Gordon restarted in fourth after the first caution as the first car to not pit and faded way back. After a handful of laps he had gone from 4th to outside the Top 10. 154. Sean posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lucky drivers: Buddy Baker Ernie Irvan" You're kidding, right? 155. the Great Dave posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SPONSORS! #32 HendrickCars.com/@TMone/U.S. Chrome #55 MyClassicGarage.com / Aarons #83 Burger King / Dr Pepper / BK.com #93 Burger King / Dr Pepper / BK.com #95 Leavine Family Racing (literally there was a decal on the hood saying that) 156. 10andJoe posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ BK.com = Burger King = same sponsor. 157. 10andJoe posted: 08.12.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those saying they should have thrown the caution at the end - You're kidding, right? For once they /shut up and let them race/, and yet there's no pleasing some people, I guess. Yes, Kyle and Jeff got into trouble because of the slick track. 30 other drivers managed not to... 158. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, this tihng about racing when there's oil on the track goes back at least to the 1980 Southern 500, when the top three cars all crashed because of an oil slick, handing that win to Terry Labonte. Then there was the fall race at Charlotte in 1998, when there was a huge crash on a restart because there was oil on the track. Among those involved in that incident were Dale Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, both Labonte brothers, and eight or nine others.hen there was the debacle at the spring race at Dover in 2004, when Kasey Kahne, on his way to a sure victory, spun in oil, and three or four others crashed behind him. And if you go back to the end of the 1982 Indinanpolis 500, Jim McKay mentioned on the broadcast after Tom Sneva's engine let go with four laps to go that it might put oil on the track, which would have forced the race to end under caution (it didn't, as we all know). And there was a big crash in the Daytona 500 that same year, probably because of oil from Bobby Wawak's car. And of course, Swede Savage's crash in the 1973 Indianapolis 500 also was caused by oil on the track. How many more late-race controversies are there going to be regarding oil on the track until NASCAR finally learns that you can't race with oil on the track? That's why I said that NASCAR should fire those in charge of running a race, because it's obvious that they valued trying to finish the race under green flag conditions ondangerous track over throwing a caution flag to let them clean up the oil and letting the drivers battle on a safe track. And certainly, no commentator is ever going to make a statement about NASCAR running on an unsafe race track like ABC's Dave Diles did in an interview he did with Jerry Grant after Swede Savage's crash in the '73 Indy 500, and later actually wiping oil from off the front of Joe Leonard's car to show that they were racing in unsafe conditions. No commentator would dare say over the airwaves that they were running on an unsafe racetrack, but they finished the race today on an unsafe racetrack, because of the possible ramifications, but if I were in charge, I would fire, or severely reprimand the guys in charge of running the race, because they chose to finish the race under green on an unsafe racetrack rather than throw a caution (and maybe even the red flag, if needed) to clean the track up. 159. slowbird posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The last lap reminded me of the Nationwide race a few years ago when Kurt Busch outdueled Robby Gordon for the win. What an exciting finish. 160. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to post what the Chase top 12 would look like under my system, with the top ten getting weighted three points per position, which would include 10th getting three more points than 11th, and add the three points per win into that. However, with the results of today's race, there's a possibility that none of us thought of prior to today's race, and that is, with the difference bewteen 10th (Denny Hamlin) and 11th (Kasey Kahne) having been cut to 40 points, and with 11th (Kahne) through 16th (Paul Menard) separated by just 24 points, we must consider that, with Denny Hamlin's engine failure (imagine that, anoter JGR engine failure), tenth place in points is now potentially in play, which would change everything as far as the Wild Card goes, especially if Hamlin were to fall out of the top ten. Hamlin would get in the Chase iwth his thre wins, no question, but how that would affect the Wild Card situation is that Hamlin would take away from those contending for one of the Wild Card berths in the Chase. 161. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin has two wins, not three as I mentioned in the last post. 162. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's how the 2012 Chase would start, in terms of points, using the standings after the race on 8/12 at Watkins Glen (tie-breakers decided by current championship standings): 1. Jimmie Johnson (current points leader, 3 wins) 2039 (2030+9) 2. Greg Biffle (second, 1 win) 2030 (2027+3) 3. Matt Kenseth (third, 1 win) 2027 (2024+3) 4. Brad Keselowski (fifth, 3 wins) 2027 (2018+9) 5. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (fourth, 1 win) 2024 (2021+3) 6. Tony Stewart, (eighth, 3 wins) 2018 (2009+9) 7. Martin truex, Jr. (sixth, no wins) 2015 (2015+0) 8. Clint Bowyer (seventh, 1 win) 2015 (2012+3) 9. Denny Hamlin (tenth, 2 wins) 2009 (2003+3) 10. Kevin Harvick (ninth, no wins) 2006 (2006+0) 11. Kasey Kahne (2 wins cashed in) 2000 12. Ryan Newman (1 win cashed in) 2000 (wins tie-breaker by being 13th in points) Others in Wild Card contention: -Kyle Busch (14th in points, 1 win, 6 points behind Newman) -Jeff Gordon (15th in points, 1 win, 10 points behind Newman) -Marcos Ambrose (17th in points, 44 points behind Newman) -Joey Logano (18th in points, 57 points behind Newman) -Carl Edwards (12th in points, no wins, 6 points AHEAD of Newman) -Paul Menard (16th in points, 15 poionts behind Newman, should he win once) 163. 1995z71 posted: 08.12.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DNF Correction: Juan Pablo Montoya: Suspension not crash. (broke a lower control arm, never hit the wall) 164. Anthony posted: 08.12.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I counted 5 lead changes on that last lap alone, surely that has to be a record for the most lead changes on a single lap in a long long time. 165. David posted: 08.12.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Casey Mears, Scott Speed, and Aric Almirola finish ahead of Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon on a road course, you know things didn't go well for the latter. 166. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually gonna give NASCAR a break on this one. Normally I am the first to jump all over them, but one common thing I heard from the driver's interviews is that they couldn't see the oil on the track. So I can't blame their spotters. And if you listen to the commentary, the way they were weaving back and forth, it looked like driver like Kyle were simply running out of gas. It wasn't like it was blatently obvious there was oil all over the track. By the time we all realized "holy shit, somebody has oiled the track all over" Kyle had already spun, and we were then treated to an epic slipping and sliding battle between Ambrose and Brad including them both tearing ass through the inner loop TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL. And as far as recognizing smoking cars, on a road course with the amount of contact you never know if it is a tire or suspension rub of a leaking mechanical piece. Besides, it was the same for everyone. I say let 'em race. Let them prove their worth as the world's best drivers. Plus it gives us a good show. Again, I reference the '95 Sears Point race. For the first 68 laps (of 74 at the time) it was a moribund race destined to go along side other Sears Point races like '90, '94, '96, and '97 as utterly forgettable. Then somebody dumped rear end grease all over the track, and suddenly Mark and Dale gave us a classic slipping and sliding battle for the win, with Mark finally slipping up on the greasy track with Dale pressing him, and Dale finally getting his road course win after a ton of Top 5s. Two old school races brought up on dirt returning to their roots and giving us something we still remember fondly. And to the Gordon fans here, he is gonna be alright. Alan did get his car better in the end and we can't forget that since his 4th win here in 2001 The Glen has been a house of horrors for him. He is just 10 points out of the wild card and has showed much more momentum as of late than Ryan and Kyle. He was pressing a little too hard on an oiled up racetrack, but that is actually a good sign. He is going for it and still has that fire. Good news for Rainbow Nation. 167. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the problem with Alan Gustason is not whether or not he could get Jeff's car better during the race. It's prety well acknowledged that Gustafson's one of the top five crew chiefs in the sport when it comes to the cars themselves. The problem with Gustafson is that he can't call a race start-to-finish. And Gordon's cars are usually not fast enough to run with the top three on high-speed tracks, though they are very consistent, hence he can run in the second half of the top ten all day, and sneak into the top five. And Gordon does not usually get up on the wheel on restarts, which gets him behind. Everyone's saying that a restart won him that race at Pocono. That's partially true, but what is overlooked there is the role that Martin Truex, Jr. played in that, as he actually pushed Gordon's car ahead of Kahne's to where he could pull down, and when the top four all tangled, the path to victory was wide open to him. And I'll say it again, you can't race when there's oil on the track, and it was pretty obvious that there was oil on the track for the last few laps by the way everyone was sliding around and spinning out without any help. That's pretty indicative of the fact that the track was oily, and several cars, including Denny Hamlin's, suffered blown engines, and NASCAR doesn't always clean the track the wat they should (that incident in the 1998 fall Charlotte race is a good example of that). And also, the Chase standings I posted in post #162 would look that way if they seeded the drivers by points (3 per position) and then added the bonus points for wins (3 per win as is done now). 168. Red posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He was pressing a little too hard on an oiled up racetrack, but that is actually a good sign. He is going for it and still has that fire. Good news for Rainbow Nation." That's what I thought as well. Normally in situations where there's a mad scramble, Jeff goes ultra-conservative and lets a bunch of cars get past him. If he wants to make the chase or even contend for a championship, he'll have to start driving more aggressively, and his move on the final corner today shows that he still has the balls to do so. NASCAR did the right thing by letting them finish under green. If they'd have thrown a caution, it would have bunched up the field and the ensuing restart would have been total chaos, probably wrecking a whole bunch of cars and possibly producing a fluke winner in the process (remember Martinsville?). Most of the time, a double-file GWC restart is going to cause more danger than whatever brought out the caution in the first place. Plus, from a purely competitive standpoint, there's nothing more annoying than having a last lap duel cut short by a caution, as it robs us of a potentially epic finish. The ending of the 2005 Talladega chase race STILL bugs me seven years later, because the finish was ruined by a pointless "safety" caution. 169. Red posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I don't think your anecdotes from 30+ years ago qualify as ample evidence for the way races should be run today. Modern stock cars are a thousand times safer than 1980's open wheel cars, so it's silly to use the 1982 Indy 500 as precedent for a 2012 Cup Series road race. In the COT era, there has not been a SINGLE race missed do to injury, so I think it's plenty safe to have drivers sliding around on a relatively slow track, even if a few of them run into each other. 170. Scott B posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sam Hornish Jr. did a lot to help his chances of staying in the #22 with his performances today and in the NNW race Saturday. Reagan Smith & Todd Berrier combo is off to a good start as already noted. The #78 team still seems to lose a lot of ground on pit stops, though. First career Cup start for Patrick Long is a start & park. Wouldn't expect to seem him again except as a road racing sub. On the whole an entertaining weekend of racing even for those like me who aren't huge road racing fans. 171. Dave#38 Fan posted: 08.12.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) patrick long was not planning to start and park, but he blew an engine in practice and crashed the car, and the team had to use the #19 cars backup (which was the #91 that reed sorenson ran last week). 172. Mr X posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yayyyyy, I finally get to watch a race that ended 7 hours ago. 173. cjs3872 posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, my overall point was that, no matter the era, that racing on an oiled down racetrack is dangerous. It was in the 1920s, the 1950s, the 1980s, and today. You're spot on when you say that no driver has missed a race due to injury in the "COT era" (and I'm not sure that's such a good thing, because as Darrell Waltrip pointed out a few years ago, drivers now think they CAN'T get hurt and take safety for granted). And you're spot on when you say that today's NASCAR cars are infintely safer than the IndyCars of the early 80s (the NASCAR cars of that era were much safer, as Brock Yates pointed out at the end of CBS' broadcast of the 1982 Daytona 500). And as for racing on a "relatively slow" track, in the last five years, Watkins Glen has featured some of the worst crashes on the entire NASCAR circuit. Does the Ragan-Reutimann crash at the end of last year's race, or the big crash coming off the inner loop involving the Jeffs (Gordon and Burton) and Sam Hornish, Jr., or Jason Leffler's crash at that same point in a Nationwide car that same weekend a few years ago ring any bells, because those were some really scary crashes. 174. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright guys, I just got an incredibly crazy and random idea. We all agree the Brickyard 400 needs something to give it some juice again. We also agree Iowa needs to be on the Cup schedule and that Chicago is boring. So let's give Indy the opening cha$e event, and run Iowa (hopefully their second date) at night on Indy's current weekend. But here is the ransdom part. We all know how Iowa brings countless "Field of Dreams" analogies (in Iowa, rising from corn fields, the "if you build it, they will come" aspect of it). So lets call the race "A Mid Summer's Night Dream". It is perfect! It is in the middle of summer, at night, and truly a "dreamed up" facility. NASCAR with a Shakespeare twist. Am I just insane or would that work? 175. Watto posted: 08.12.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not a bad race by Hornish, top 5. Interesting that Sam was complete pants on road courses in the IRL but seems to be one of the best road course racers in NASCAR right now." Well, the last time Sam ran an Indy Car on a road course, he got 2nd at Watkins Glen. He wasn't as bad as people say he was, but certainly this was his best result by far. He gained a few spots at the end in the craziness, but he wouldve certainly gotten a top 10 regardless. Previously, his best finish at Watkins Glen had been 14th and his best finish at Sonoma is 31st. Certainly, racing the Cup car is a world of difference. It's not the downforce/grip king that the IndyCar is, and a different driving style is needed. Maybe the heavy car with big power suits Sam better. 176. Matt G posted: 08.13.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the Jeff Gordon fan out there, I think if you look at the last lap as a package deal the whole thing actually worked out well for you. Yes it was bad that Jeff lost about 12 spots because of the spin, but if there's no oil on the track, then Kyle Busch just cruises to victory. That would have been a HUGE problem for Jeff as then both Kyle and Kasey would have had two wins to Gordon's one - Putting Jeff right back in the spot he was before Pocono - Needing to win another race. I think Kyle not winning was a bigger positive for Gordon than he spin was a negative, and they both happened for the same reason. Wouldn't it be something if both Gordon and Busch don't win any on the next four races and Gordon gets the last spot? For the first time in Cup history, you could have a driver be able to say that that the oil he slipped and spun in on the last lap of a race, was actually a help to him in the big picture. I find that absolutely fasccinating!!! 177. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Matt G, Denny Hamlin's engine failure brings up the possibility I mentioned in post #160 that tenth place in points could come back into play for a driver like Carl Edwards, who's winless. If that happens, and Edwards bounces Hamlin out of the top ten, that would mean that Hamlin would join Kasey Kahne as drivers out of the top ten with two wins. That would lock out the Wild Card spots for drivers with just one win, if they don't win again prior to the Chase, and we pretty much know that Jeff Gordon doesn't have the speed to win at Michigan, though he could run in the top 5-8, which is where he generally runs at those tracks without contending for the lead. However, Gordon should be among the favorites at Bristol (which is a great unknown) and Atlanta. But Hamlin's engine failure dropped the difference between 10th (now represented by Hamlin) and 11th in points from 57 down to 40. Another problem for Hamlin could open the door to 10th in points and change the entire complexion of this race for the Wild Card spots in the Chase. Hamlin is safe, even if he drops out of the top ten in points, but if he does, and is replaced by Edwards, then that closes the door for those 1-win drivers trying to get in via the Wild Card, such as Gordon, Kyle Busch, and Ryan Newman. Hamlin's problem today has potentially opened the door for a whole new set of possibilities that didn't exist 15 hours ago. 178. Anonymous posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) who has scored the most points since Kentucky? 179. Bryan N posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great Race and Good Job to the BKR guys (83 and 93) along with Scott Speed and Casey Mears!! 180. Red posted: 08.13.2012 - 2:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still don't think there's any way Hamlin falls out of the top 10. He would need to encounter horrendous luck and the guys behind him would have to finish in the top five consistently. The #11 car is fast, and he won't have mechanical issues every week. I really think the last WC spot is a battle between Jeff and Kyle, since Newman has been about a 17th place car all year and is only up there because he's avoided trouble and lucked into a win. Kyle could easily win Bristol or Richmond, so I'd give him the upper hand, but you just never know. Hell, Marcos could win Bristol and steal the second WC (hey, anything's possible). Regardless of who makes it, I don't think they'll have any real shot at the championship. The #18 team is way too inconsistent, and Kyle always melts down under pressure, the #24 is held back by Gustafson's strategy errors and Jeff's pathetic restarts, and the #39 is just too damn slow. Most likely it'll come down to Jimmie, Tony, and Brad. I would normally include Kenseth but since he's a lame duck I don't think he has much of a chance. 181. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 2:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, all that needs to happen to really put tenth position in points into play is one more failure from Denny Hamlin at Michigan or Atlanta, or a crash at Bristol, which is definately possible. I agree that there's very little chance of Hamlin losing that position, but if there's a mechanical failure or crash, tenth place in points is suddenly very much up for grabs, and remember all the engine trouble Gibbs has been having ever since early June when Kyle Busch had engine problems in three consecutive races, all under caution, and Joey Lognao, who for all intents and purposes, is now out of contention, and could soon be out of the top 20 in the standings (he's currently 18th after a mechincal problem on his car today). So mechanical gremlins are adversely affecting Gibbs' team, one one more problem for Hamlin would open up tenth place in points for a number of drivers. 182. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 2:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Red, you say that the only reason Ryan Newman is up there in one of the Wild Card spots is because he avoided trouble and lucked into a win (at Martinsville). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how Jeff Gordon lucked into his only win this year? He was never going to win Pocono without everyone in front of him tangling and the rain coming at just the right time for him, because his car just wasn't fast enough to race for the lead, which has been his problem all year long on tracks larger than one mile in length. If it's true that 11 of the 12 spots in the Chase have been decided, my pick for the 12th and final spot go down to Newman, Carl Edwards, and Kyle Busch, with Jeff Gordon still a long shot, though not as big a long shot as he was prior to Pocono, when he seemingly had no shot. 183. 10andJoe posted: 08.13.2012 - 3:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #171 - It was stated during qualifying that that was the #30 team's Michigan car. 184. 10andJoe posted: 08.13.2012 - 3:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #26 sponsor: Morristown Drivers Service #36 sponsor: TMOne #38 sponsor: ModSpace (no space in name) 185. Rob posted: 08.13.2012 - 3:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice to see Ambrose win. For everyone saying how exciting the finish was, thats like the finish of every v-8 supercar race, the series Ambrose used to race in, so im sure he felt right at home. Just wish He'd go do some sportscar or touring car racing instead of NAPCAR....... 186. Matt G posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And if we have to go to Kansas twice a year because of the casino, maybe they should run the road course instead of the oval. I'd love to see it tried once. http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/AoEzByqPfk04v.GvkTKVZQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnascarmarbles/kansas_speedway_to_repave_reconfigure_and_add_road_course_in_.jpg 187. LordLowe posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) DSFF: The tracks at Chicago, Indianapolis, Kansas, Las Vegas, Texas, Michigan & Charlotte all need to be NUKED 188. Anonymous posted: 08.13.2012 - 8:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I'll say it again, you can't race when there's oil on the track" This comment is proved wrong by the fact that.....they just did. The point of a caution flag is to rectify a dangerous situation, not to create one. A GWC would have been far more dangerous. Correct call by NASCAR. 189. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 10:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't like GWC's on road courses, either, #188. In fact, I think they should get rid of them on road courses and the plate races, but with five laps to go, Bobby Labonte had his problem, according to reports. That would have been plenty of time to throw the caution, then the red flag to stop the race so that the officials could clean the track and so that the teams did not have to worry about fuel, and then finish the race on a cleaned up track. If necessary, because of the length of a lap on the road courses, they could do one green lap, instead of two, but I think they should get rid of the GWC all together on the road courses and plate tracks. Think about it. I they did go to a GWC situation at Watkins Glen, and had to use up all three attempts (which could very easily have happened), that could add about 12-14% to the race distance, but I say get rid of it at the road courses and plate tracks for exactly the reasons you mentioned. 190. 10andJoe posted: 08.13.2012 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #32 sponsor: Hendrickcars.com (TMOne and U.S. Chrome only had small associate decals). 191. Anonymous posted: 08.13.2012 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Juan Montoya didnt wreck. 192. Scott B posted: 08.13.2012 - 11:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the negative side, the first race of the season where there were only 43 entries. Not even Robby Gordon at a road course, I guess you can stick a fork in his efforts as a Cup owner/driver. 193. Kyle posted: 08.13.2012 - 12:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everyone had to race through the oil, Gordon was the only one that couldn't control his car...Brad was on the outside too going for the win & he didn't wreck. They all had to deal with the same conditions, the guys with the most car control made it. 194. Baker posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exciting finish but I was unbelievably peeved off at the results. My 3 favorite drivers could have one with less than 20 to go the they went down in order; Stewart all by himself and the Kyle with help from Kese and oil and then Keselowski. And to top it off my least favorite driver other than Kurt or Jimmie steals the win. Yes, Ambrose is the biggest jerk in NASCAR on the track. It just never shows bc he can only make speed twice a year. Make no mistake about it the oil was just a lucky excuse for him to numb fenders with Kese. Dry track and Ambrose would have dumped him and the apologized on Victory lane going on and on about how he hates to win like that. Funny, though, bc I can only think of once he won without dumping someone. 195. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Listen very carefully Rainbow Nation: JEFF GORDON WILL MAKE THE CHA$E! You have my guarantee. If he doesn't, then on the Richmond page here I will post at least a 3 paragraph post doing nothing but praising Geoff Bodine, with no backhanded compliments, and no use of the phrase "smart mouthed Yankee bastard". Do you have any idea how hard that will be? That is how confident I am. Also, if he misses it, I will issue a personal apology to all of Rainbow Nation. But I won't stop calling you "Rainbow Nation". That is just too damn funny. 196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, the difference between Newman and Gordon is that Newman is back there just cause he has simply been the 15th best guy out there, while Gordon is there because of his cartoonishly bad luck. And Gordon's "lucked into" Pocono win was, in reality, just the karma gods giving a make good for all the Wile E Coyote luck he's been handed this year. 197. David posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are SO ON, DSFF!!!!! 198. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmmm, I'm all for Gordon making the Chase, but that would be hilarious if DSFF was forced to write 3 paragraphs praising his mortal enemy. But then again, those would be 3 of the shortest paragraphs on record *rimshot*. As tempting as that sounds, Gordon will make the Chase because he deserves to be there. Newman is outside the top 12 because that's where he races every week. Logano and Ambrose have no shot in any of the remaining 4 races. That leaves just Gordon and Kyle, but as history shows, Kyle is terrible when in the clutch, as evidenced by his Chase collapse in '08 and '11 and his missed Chase in '09. Plus his Kryle personality was back as he refused an interview after losing at The Glen. Gordon, meanwhile, experienced similar heartbreak after spinning himself outside the top 10 in the last corner, yet showed maturity by giving a polite interview. Other than the occasional engine failure under caution, Kyle's his own worst enemy. When the chips are down, he goes down with them. Gordon's worst enemies are bad luck and thr man atop his pit box. If luck stays away from him and AG stays quiet during these final 4 races, Gordon should cakewalk his way into thr Chase because of his experience, maturity, and his clutch. 199. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.13.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let the Bodine praise begin. 200. Rusty posted: 08.13.2012 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to hold you to that Bodine praise if Gordon misses the Chase, DSFF lol. On performance, Jeff should get that spot. But with his luck, I wouldn't bet on it. 201. Anonymous posted: 08.13.2012 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joe Nemechek with a rare non-S&P in the cup series nearly doesn't finish but ends up limping around the final few laps 202. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I still say that Carl Edwards also has a say in this, as does Denny Hamlin. Remember that if Hamlin has one more bad race, tenth place in points becomes wide open, and of those battling to get back in the top ten, one driver I wouldn't count out is Edwards. That's because Edwards is always good at Michigan (as are the rest of the drivers in Wild Card contention), has twice won the night race at Bristol, and dominated at Richmond earlier this year. Of those battling for the Wild Card spots, I would say that Gordon and Newman, the latter of which is actually in the second Wild Card spot, are actually the underdogs, because neither of them has the speed to win, and if Hamlin does fall out of the top ten and is replaced by Edwards, Busch, Gordon, or Newman may actually have to win twice to bump either Hamlin or Kasey Kahne out of the Wild Card spots. My current pisk to grab that final spot is still Kyle Busch, because he has the speed, but his luck has been just as bad as Gordon's this year. And you say the "occasion engine failure under caution". How about engine failures under caution in three successive races, and it appears that Denny Hamlin has inherited some of that luck in recent races. But I still like both Hamlin and Busch to make it, but it tenth place in points opens up, anything could happen. 203. Daniel posted: 08.13.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michigan entry list: -David Reutimann in the #10 -Jason Leffler in the #19 -Trevor Bayne in the #21 -#23 back with Scott Riggs -David Stremme in the #30 -Ken Schrader in the #32 -J.J. Yeley in the #37 -Mark Martin in the #55 -Reed Sorenson in the #91 -Mike Skinner in the #98 204. 10andJoe posted: 08.13.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those keeping an eye on such things: Jacques Villeneuve is in the 22 this week at CGV. 205. Smiff_99 posted: 08.13.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^Hey, they need SOMEbody to piss off half the field....lol. He's just *so* good at it.... 206. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 08.13.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #198 - I won't deny that shades of "Old Kyle" came back after this race, but to call Gordon and Busch's heartbreak similar is a tad mistaken. Gordon didn't dominate the race, he didn't have the race won coming to the white flag, and he didn't possibly lose a shot at the championship. In fact, as someone said earlier, the oil on the track was ultimately good for Gordon's Chase hopes, but I'm sure Jeff wasn't thinking about that during the interview. I don't fault Kyle for not wanting to give an interview. Since he finished out of the top 5, I would say he was under no obligation to give to talk to reporters if he didn't want to, and simply saying "I have nothing good to say" says as much about what he was thinking at that point as any interview would. It would have been nice if he had given one, but I'm not bothered by the fact he didn't. 207. Talon64 posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Marcos Ambrose picks up his 2nd career Sprint Cup Series victory, both coming in consecutive races at Watkins Glen. He joins Joey Logano in 2012 as the two drivers whose first top 5's of the season are a win. Despite fewer top 5's (1 vs. 4) and top 10's (6 vs. 7) so far this season compared to 2011, Ambrose's average finish this year is better (17.1 vs. 18.3). Ambrose improves his average finish at Watkins Glen to an unreal 2.0 in 5 starts, with 2 wins and no finish worse than 3rd! Ambrose is the 26th driver to win multiple road course races in Cup, and joins Juan Pablo Montoya, Ray Elder and Dan Gurney as the only drivers to get their first two career Cup wins on road courses. To date, that's ALL of their career Cup wins, including Dan Gurney who had 5 wins. This is Ford's first win in 15 races, and just their 3rd win this season. Which made me realize that before this race, Brad Keselowski had single-handedly given Dodge more wins than Ford this year. Despite Ford having Kenseth and Biffle at the top of the standings all season. Brad Keselowski finishes runner-up for just the 3rd time in his career (versus 7 wins), with two of them coming at Watkins Glen. Keselowski ties a career-high with his 6th straight top 10 finish, during which he's scored the most points of anyone (11 more than 2nd, 23 more than 3rd!). Keselowski's 3rd in points scored on the road courses over the last 4 races, with his 2 runner-up finishes at the Glen and 3 top 10's (6.5 avg fin) and the 5th-most laps led (39). Jimmie Johnson ties his best finish at the Glen in 3rd, his 4th top 5 in 11 starts there (13.2) but his first since his last 3rd place finish back in 2007. It's Johnson's 4th straight top 10 on the road courses and his 12th in 22 career road course starts (13.5 avg fin). In fact, Johnson's 2nd in top 10's on road courses since 2002 (Tony Stewart leads all drivers with 15). Johnson takes over the point lead on the strength of now leading the series in top 5's (11), top 10's (16) and laps led (956). It's the first time Johnson's led the standings since after Atlanta last September. Clint Bowyer wins the 2012 Road Ace award in the Cup Series; he won at Sonoma, joins Jimmie Johnson as the only two drivers with top 5's at both Sonoma and Watkins Glen, and scored the most points of anyone between the two road course races this season. It's Bowyer's first top 5 at Watkins Glen and just his 2nd top 10 there in 7 starts with a 15.6 avg fin (4 top 5's, 9.7 avg fin in 7 starts at Sonoma). After posting a 22.5 avg fin in the two races following his Sonoma win, Clint Bowyer has 2 top 5's and 3 top 10's in the last 4 races (7.5 avg fin). Bowyer's 5 top 5's this season already top his total from all of 2011, and he's on pace for a career-high 8 top 5's this season. Sam Hornish Jr. gets just his 3rd top 5 in 115 career Cup starts, his first in 56 starts dating back to August of 2009. And it's his first top 10 in 16 starts, dating back to September of 2010. It's just the 4th top 10 for the #22 Penske team this season, which jumped up from 24th to 22nd in the owners standings with Hornish's 5th place finish. It's Hornish's first top 10 in 7 career road course starts in Cup; he had a 31.1 average finish in his first 6 starts. Greg Biffle picks up his 3rd top 10 in the last 4 races, after having just 2 in the previous 6. It's just his 7th top 10 in 20 career road course starts (19.4 avg fin). But after finishing 30th or worse in his first 4 Glen starts, Biffle has 3 top 10's in the last 6 (16.2 avg fin). Kyle Busch led the most laps at Watkins Glen for the 3rd time in the last 6 races, but with only 1 victory (2008) to show for it. He did pick up his 7th straight top 10 at Watkins Glen, the longest active streak of any driver (5.6 avg fin). Kyle's top 10 gives him 10+ in all 8 of his full seasons on the circuit (averages 16.4 per season, on pace for 16 this season). But it's just his 3rd top 10 in the last 10 races, during which he's only 19th in points scored. Jamie McMurray's scored more points than him in that stretch. Matt Kenseth finishes in the top 10 at the Glen for the first time in 8 races, although he hasn't finished worse than 14th in the last 6 (12.2 avg fin). It's just his 4th top 10 in 13 Glen starts, but he has just 3 finishes outside of the top 20 (15.0 avg fin). Since the announcement that he'll be leaving Roush at season's end, Matt Kenseth has 1 top 5, 3 top 10's and a 14.8 average finish. But his driver rating's 98.7 so he's still be performing pretty well, just bad luck at Indy and Pocono. Regan Smith had just 7 top 20 finishes with a best of 14th in the first 19 races of the season (24.2 avg fin) with Pete Rondeau as his crew chief. In his first 3 races with Todd Berrier as his CC, Regan Smith has two 9th's and an 18th (12.0 avg fin). It's Smith's first top 10 in 8 career road course starts (27.4 avg fin). Martin Truex Jr.'s 12th top 10 of the season equals his total from all of 2011, and is just 2 off of his career high of 14 from 2007. It's his 3rd consecutive top 10 and 4th in the last 6 (9.5 avg fin, 4th most points scored). It's his 2nd straight top 10 at Watkins Glen and his 4th in 7 starts there (13.7 avg fin). Paul Menard gets his best career road course finish in Cup in 12th (23.2 avg fin in 14 starts). Scott Speed finishes in the top 20 in a Cup race for the first time in 27 starts, dating back to a 19th at Charlotte in October of 2010. 208. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DPFC, I consider Gordon's result a heartbreak because he made his way up to 4th, fell to 29th, and made his way back up to the top 10 only to spin out in the final corner. To me, that's still a heartbreak because after overcoming adversity in the race, Gordon lost it all in one turn. It reminded me of Kurt Busch at Darlington this year when he drove a junk car up to 9th, only to wreck after he wore the car out so bad that it finally gave up. Sure, Gordon may not have had a winning car, but he lost what would have been a non-statistical win with that rally from 29th to 9th. I'm just curious to see how both of them overcome their respected disappointments in the next 4 races. As Cjs has pointed out on nearly every Cup race comments section, Gordon lacks the speed to compete for wins at the big tracks, so give Kyle the advantage at Michigan. Bristol is the trur wildcard because of the groove changes, but both Kyle and Gordon should adapt quickly to the track. Then I give Gordon the advantage at Atlanta and Richmond to Kyle, as they're the defending winners at those two tracks. On paper, they're about equal at these next 4 tracks combined, not individually, mind you. I'm interested in seeing if their mentality changes or differs from each other after the Glen, as they experienced two different heartbreaks with two different reactions. 209. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Parker Kligerman, who was supposed to drive the #22 at Michigan while Hornish is at Montreal, will help setup the #22 car on Saturday. Obviously there was a deal in place before Kligerman was released from BKR, but I wonder why he would agree to help tune it up if he's no longer going to be driving it. Maybe he's trying to show his loyalty towards Penske in hopes of future Nationwide races, which look dim now that Ryan Blaney's come aboard. What do you guys think? 210. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I know Kyle's engine failures occurred in three consecutive races. I was just making a point how even though they have each had bad luck when it comes to their cars not finishing races, they have different worst enemies. For Gordon, it's the man atop his pitbox; for Kyle, it's the man behind the wheel. That's why I feel that Gordon may have the advantage mentally in these next 4 races because this week we saw a glimpse of Kyle's "Kryle" personality. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is still unclear, but this could be the beginning of the end for Kyle's Chase hopes. 211. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The one thing I can guarantee Paul, is that Gordon's mentality won't change. He's like the golfer that shoots 64 or 80, yet by looking at him, you'd never know which one of those numbers he had shot. The one big advantage he has over Kyle Busch (and everyone else from 10th through 16th) is that his mental frame of mind never changes. However, guys like Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, and even Denny Hamlin, can get mentally off track after even the slightest problem, even if it's not their doing. And remember one thing about Bristol. Neither Edwards or Busch really got a chance to show what they could do, so we don't know what either of them have there, but my guess is that both should run with the leaders there at least some point, if not for most of the race. And one of them (Edwards) dominated Richmond, while the other (Busch) won there. And here's something regarding the Denny Hamlin situation where all this is concerned. Even though he's currently 40 points to the good (in tenth place in the standings), most of that could be wiped out with another bad race. And do we know that he's completely healthy? Let's not forget the hard shot he took in that Pocono wreck near the end of that race. He still might be feeling the aftereffects of that, and if so, it could tell at Bristol. That, plus the fact that Bristol is lurking, and Denny Hamlin's 40-point lead over 11th in points, represented by Kasey Kahne, who's notoriously weak on short tracks, may be anything but safe. Hamlin needs no worse than a top 10 run this week. Another mid-pack finish could put his 10th place in jeopardy, and another mechanical failure or crash could put it in real jeopardy. It still wouldn't completely surprise me if Kyle Busch or Carl Edwards got in on points, if Hamlin has another problem. That's why I'm not completely sertain that Kahne is in the Chase, even with his two wins. It wouldn't surprise me if Hamlin has trouble, that Edwards gets in on points, and Hamlin and Kyle Busch get the Wild Cards, given how strong Edwards and Busch are on short tracks, and how weak Kahne usually is on them. 212. Red posted: 08.13.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how Jeff Gordon lucked into his only win this year?" The performance gap between Gordon and Newman this year has been enormous, despite them being close neighbors in the standings. Here are the Driver Ratings for all of the wild card hopefuls: 6th - Kyle Busch 97.1 9th - Jeff Gordon 95.4 10th - Kasey Kahne 93.1 15th - Carl Edwards 84.8 16th - Marcos Ambrose 83.3 17th - Ryan Newman 82.6 18th - Joey Logano 78.8 When you look at actual performance, and not just finishes, it becomes very clear that it's going to be Jeff vs. Kyle for the second wild card spot. Carl and Ryan have been downright mediocre this season, but have been fortunate in avoiding bad finishes which inflates their position in the standings. Barring a series of miraculous events, neither Carl or Ryan will have the speed to compete. Just for the hell of it, the top five in Driver Rating: 1st - Johnson 109.9 2nd - Biffle 104.1 3rd - Kenseth 103.5 4th - Junior 100.8 5th - Hamlin 98.1 213. Talon64 posted: 08.13.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 4 in points are the top 4 in driver rating, in exact order. Pretty fitting. The biggest positive discrepancy in driver rating vs. position in points goes to Kyle Busch; 6th in driver rating, 14th in the standings. Next best is Gordon, 9th vs. 15th. I describe it as "positive" because it means they're running better than the results suggest. The biggest negative discrepancy (not including AJ Allmendinger) belongs to Clint Bowyer and Tony Stewart, 7th and 8th in points but 12th and 13th in driver rating respectively. It's negative because they're running worse than results suggest. Stewart isn't that surprising considering he's right up front one race and running like crap the next. 214. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But again Red, there's the question of whether or not Denny Hamlin, who I believe is still quite sore from that Pocono crash, and is driving the same unreliable JGR cars that Kyle Busch is driving, will even stay in the top ten, and if he doesn't, that will enable someone like Edwards to sneak in, evenif he doesn't win. And you say that it's perfomance that will make it Jeff vs. Kyle, but you actually have to finish races, because the last time I checked, you got points based on where you finish the race, so they could dominate, but if something happens, like it did Sunday at Watkins Glen, it doesn't matter how they ran. I'll say this again, too. Kasey Kahne better not have a bad race at either Michigan ar Atlanta, because he's notoriously bad on short tracks, and I'm still not convinced he's got a spot in the Chase locked up, despite his two wins. Obviously a third locks him in, but if he's in a deadlock situation in the wins category with any of the others tring to get in (Newman, Busch, and Gordon), I don't think Kasey makes it if it comes to short tracks, and if whatever soreness Hamlin's got from his Pocono crash affects him, especially at Bristol, where it would be most likely to show up, he could be in jeopardy of lose his tenth position, and anything could happen then. That's why I think Hamlin MUST finish at least in the top ten at Michigan. Hamlin should get in, no matter what, but if he falls out of the top ten, that changes everything. 215. David posted: 08.13.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you want a good measure of running vs. finishing, try Top-15 Efficiency. It was invented by (surprise!) David Smith. Basically it compares running in the top-15 to finishing there. A positive number indicates the driver finishes better than he runs. A negative num.ber is just the opposite. Very simple in theory, but very effective. 216. Spen posted: 08.13.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fortunately for Denny, Michigan is one of his best tracks, so unless his engine blows up (which yes, could happen), he's practically guarenteed a top ten finish here. Add in Richmond, and his chances of finishing the season in the top ten look pretty good to me. By the way, where is Harvick on the driver rating chart? 217. Watto posted: 08.13.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Obviously there was a deal in place before Kligerman was released from BKR, but I wonder why he would agree to help tune it up if he's no longer going to be driving it." Well, it pays. Parker's relationship with Penske Racing isn't totally terminated like many think. There's certainly nothing to lose by him helping out the 22 car while he's in Michigan for the truck race. There's only something to gain, and he'd be stupid to turn it down IMO. 218. DanicaPatrick'sFlatChest posted: 08.13.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul - Oh I don't deny that what happened to Gordon was heartbreaking, he had to have been frustrated after all that. I'm just saying Busch's experience was on a whole other level of disappointment, and I understand why he wasn't in the mood to talk about it. That said, if the roles were reversed, both drivers likely would have reacted the same way they did in reality, with Gordon giving a polite interview despite losing a race that was his, and Busch refusing to talk (although I doubt anyone would have noticed or cared) And throw me in the camp that believes Gordon has the mental strength to forget a race like this, while we'll have to see how this affects Kyle. As someone who firmly believes Busch should be competing for the championship, that's what bothers me so much about this race. This could definitely be the beginning of the end. 219. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watto, you make a good point about the pay. That and the fact that he's trying to stay on good terms with Penske I think are the main reasons why he's doing this for the Captain. DPFC, I agree with everything you just said. Gordon and Kyle, while experiencing different levels of heartbreak, probably would have reacted the same way if roles were reversed. Remember Gordon's reaction at Martinsville when he got wrecked out of the win? Very polite man. I too am curious how they will fare at the super fast Michigan next week. I'd say Kyle has the speed advantage, but as Cjs pointed out, all that matters at this point is where you finish. 220. cjs3872 posted: 08.13.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, #218, Gordon's been there before. After all, when you've races at the top of the Cup series for 20 years, you're going to have races that get away, not that this was one of them. Just look at the way he handled Martinsville earlier this year. You don't win 86 races (20 of them majors, or crown jewel events) and four championships just by being fast. You do so by being cool, calculating, and most of all, not leting little things get in the way, and that's been Kyle Busch's problem over the years. All things being equal, I would take Gordon in a heartbeat. Professional golfer Hubert Green was asked at the 1980 U.S. Open after shooting himself in contention in the third round about whether or not he could win, and he said that it was Jack Nicklaus that was leading. Green was one of the top players then, and Nicklaus had more majors than Green had wins. Nicklaus had 17 majors (counting his two U.S. Amateur championships, which were classified as major then) and Green had 16 wins. The same is true regarding Gordon and most of the others chasing the Wild Card spots. With the exception of Kyle Busch, Gordon has more majors than the others have wins. Kasey Kahne has 14 wins, Ryan Newman has 16 wins, and Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards each have 19 wins. Jeff Gordon has 20 majors. So all things being equal, it should be no contest, it should be Gordon all the way. If his cars are fast, and he doesn't have bad luck, Gordon should get one of the Wild Card spots, and another win, just based on his pedigree, but as we all know, all things are not equal, and that's why I like Kyle Busch or Carl Edwards to get the last spot in the Chase, if the popular opinion of 11 of the 12 spots already being grabbed is true. 221. Paul posted: 08.13.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, if you're talking about Carl making the Chase as a wildcard, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. He may not have had as much bad luck as Gordon or Kyle this year, but he's been slower than both of them this year. You've mentioned before how Gordon has only led in 3 races under normal green flag conditions. Well Carl gas only led in 3 races total, and only once (Richmond) was it under normal green flag conditions. Other than benefiting from Roush's superb restrictor plate program this year, Carl has yet to lead on a 2+ mile track and i dont see him contending at the fast Atlanta track despite his track record there. I don't know how well he'll do at Bristol as he crashed early in the spring race, but Richmond looks to be the only place he may contend as he had the strongest car there in the spring. Plus, history shows that Carl can't win the year after contending for the championship (see ''05-'06 and '08-'09 for examples). He could surprise me with a win on a short track, but he's lacked the speed yo contend at either of the other two tracks. The only way I see him making the Chase is if Denny somehow falls out. But since we're coming up on 2 of Denny's best tracks (Michigan and Richmond), bad luck is the only thing that can stop Denny. 222. Cooper posted: 08.13.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't want to say I told you so, but if you look at my comment from this race two years ago....it's pretty hilarious. "64. Cooper posted: 08.09.10 - 12:48 pm" "NASCAR I'm ashamed of you again. Robby was smoking big time with a couple of laps to go and NASCAR refused to bring the caution out. This is a carbon copy of what started the caution brigade years ago. NASCAR has to throw the caution, when there is an abundant amount of smoke from a race car. NASCAR realized that it was the safe thing to do after Kasey Kahne got screwed out of a win at Dover in 04. If NASCAR allows this to go under the rug, another driver will lose a race win in the near future." NASCAR never brings out cautions for oil on road courses. I seen this coming. However, NASCAR's mistake made this one of the best finishes in recent memory and really put a smile on my face. Brad is fast right now and he has a chance at the title. 10 years ago my driver had a chance at the title and had it slip out of his grasps. NASCAR owes me a title as a fan. This is going to be an epic chase. More road courses please. That's all I'm asking for. What a fantastic race. 223. Red posted: 08.14.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, where is Harvick on the driver rating chart?" In very predictable fashion, all three RCR drivers are stroking their way to a better points position than their actual performance would suggest: Harvick - 12th in DR (90.8), 9th in points, -3 Menard - 20th in DR (76.5), 16th in points, -4 Burton - 22nd in DR (73.5), 20th in points, -2 What's sad is that 2012 is actually an aggressive year by RCR standards. Check out the discrepancies from 2008: Harvick - 9th in DR (91.0), 4th in points, -5 Burton - 11th in DR (89.2), 6th in points, -5 Bowyer - 14th in DR (82.8), 5th in points, -9 (!) In 2008, RCR's points finishes were inflated by a combined NINETEEN positions compared to their actual performance. That's what I call institutionalized conservatism. 224. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, on Edwards, I remember this happening a couple of years ago when he hardly led at all until late in the season, then he won the final two races to set up last year's heartbreaking season, where he threatened to win many times, but only won once. As for you mentioning the crash Edwards had at Bristol, Kyle Busch was in that same accident (and I think Denny Hamlin was in it, as well), and Kasey Kahne started that incident when he crowded Regan Smith, so four of those drivers at the bottom of, or just outside the Chase, were involved in that early crash. That's what I mean by Bristol being a great unknown, even if they had done nothing with the track surface, but now that they've altered the track surface there, it's an even greater unknown. And as for Denny Hamlin needing more bad luck for Edwards or anyone else to leapfrog him in points, how can anyone trust the engines in the JGR cars on a high-speed track after all the problems they've had the last two years, and none of the JGR cars had good races at Michigan earlier this year. And that's a 400-mile race, and there's a 500-mile race at Atlanta coming up two weeks after that, so the reliability question will ring even louder then. I have grave concerns about whether or not Hamlin will stay in the top ten (I think he will, but he should get in, even if he doesn't), which is why it's a must that he has a top ten this week at Michigan. If not, and if he has a mid-pack finish (or worse), tenth place could become wide open, with four, five, six drivers contending for that spot, because the margin from 11th through about 16th hasn't really changed in recent weeks, except for Joey Logano (another JGR driver) predictably falling out of it. Hamlin fallingout of the top ten most likely won't knock him out, but it would knock a driver such as Ryan Newman, Kyle Busch, Jeff Gordon, or Possibly even Kasey Kahne out, depending on the wins situation, if it's Carl Edwards that gets in on points. 225. Eric posted: 08.14.2012 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, the durability of equipment at JGR has been an issue this season despite TRD building engines on the cup side for Toyota cup teams. This is not a once it a while thing on the cup side for that organization. There has been part failures outside of engines for the 3 JGR cup teams this year also. It don't think the problem is on the drivers either. 226. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing about the lack of performance on the Cup side for RCR is that, despite what you hear said on television, I don't think that Childress is putting that much effort in his Cup program at ths moment. Certainly some of it is Childress' conservative nature, which is smart at this moment, considering where Harvick now stands in the points, but I think most of Childress' emphasis is on the Nationwide and Truck series, because that's where his grandsons are racing, and most of his attention is on their progress. I think when Austin Dillon gets into the Cup series, whenever that happens, you'll see Childress' teams return to the form they had several years ago when all of them were capable of winning races. Another thing about RCR's struggles is that two of Childress' Cup drivers, Paul Menard and Jeff Burton, are very conservative anyway, and that, when combined with Childress' conservative nature, really makes it show up. 227. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.14.2012 - 8:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as Kyle not giving an interview, if Dale Earnhardt could give interviews after each of his crushing Daytona 500 losses including 1990, if Rusty could give interviews after each of his crushing Brickyard 400 losses and other disappointing races (even if he threw in the occasional "bullshit" lol), and if Jeff can give interviews after every single one of his Wile E Coyote races to let Rainbow Nation know how he is feeling, then Kyle should be doing the same. Not to mention other countless examples. Kasey at Dover '04. Matt having to face the audience after the Fall Dover '04. Regan Smith after Dega '08. But here is the sad thing, given Kyle's personality it probably is best he didn't talk. And that is a symptom of what is holding back a could be legendary career. He has got to find some mental fortitude from somewhere. He had been doing really well this year, but as in years past, he just can't keep it up. The disappointments weigh on him instead of motivating him. He just doesn't have the mindset to take advantage of his incredible gifts. 228. David posted: 08.14.2012 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, time for a few stats. Here are the top 15 in Laps Completed in the Top 15, with their top-15 efficiency in partenthesis. Matt Kenseth - 87.4 (-5.6) Jimmie Johnson - 85.0 (+1.4) Greg Biffle - 83.7 (-1.9) Dale Earnhardt Jr. - 83.3 (-1.5) Martin Truex Jr. - 81.2 (-8.5) Brad Keselowski - 74.2 (+3.1) Jeff Gordon - 71.7 (-12.6) Kevin Harvick - 71.4 (-3.2) Denny Hamlin - 70.9 (-11.8) Clint Bowyer - 67.5 (+9.8) Kasey Kahne - 66.5 (+1.7) Kyle Busch - 65.2 (-10.7) Tony Stewart - 58.1 (+5.5) Ryan Newman - 57.8 (+5.8) Carl Edwards - 54.1 (+9.5) See comment #215 for explanation. (Whew, that was a lot of 15s) 229. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, one person that agrees with your view on what Kyle Busch did after that debacle of a finish (at least for him) at Watkins Glen was Kyle Petty. Petty had the same emotions come over him after his crash with Bobby Hillin, Jr. and Al Unser, Jr. at the 1993 Daytona 500, and instead of saying something he might regret, decided to have his PR person answers questions, which she did by expaining why Kyle Petty did not come out. Of course, Richard wouldn't have done that. He would have come right out and answered the questions, but Kyle always seemed to be more emotional than Richard, and Kyle was afraid of saying something he would regret. The same for Kyle Busch after Sunday's race at Watkins Glen. While Kyle has done this many times, it's understandable why he didn't answer any questions afterthis situation. What happened could very well have cost Kyle a spot in the Chase. And speaking of the Chase, I've mentioned that with another bad race, Denny Hamlin could open up the tenth spot for potential drivers wanting to take that spot. However, I think it's time I've mentioned magic numbers as it relates to the Chase. While we know for sure nine of the drivers that will be in, nobody has officially clinched yet. However, any driver that is 145 points or more ahead of 11th place will officially clinch a spot in the Chase (144 in the case of point leader Jimmie Johnson due to tie-breakers), as will Brad Keselowski or Tony Stewart with a win, although neither of those two drivers can get to that +145 point over 11th threshold. However, the top four currently in the standings (Johnson, Greg Biffle, Matt Kenseth, and Dale Earnhardt, Jr.) could all make up enough ground to be at least 145 points ahead of 11th (144 in the case of Johnson due to tie-breakers). Johnson would only have to hold position on 11th, Biffle would only have to gain two points, Kenseth three and Dale, Jr. 18 to clinch a spot in the Chase on points. Also, Kasey Kahne can eliminate those drivers below 18th in points from Wild Card contention with a win at Michgan, which would give him three wins. No driver below 18th in points has a win. Just a few things to think about as far as the Chase and potential clinching and elimination scenarios are concerned. 230. Jim Davis posted: 08.14.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #229: "While Kyle has done this many times, it's understandable why he didn't answer any questions after this situation." Understandable, yes. Acceptable to his sponsors? Not likely. Sponsors want to be associated with friendly, likeable, and approachable drivers and will even accept less than stellar driving skills to get that. Michael Waltrip has parlayed his people skills all the way to an ownership position. Mars/M&Ms might understand why Busch is storming off without comment but I think Busch will get the word that such behavior is not acceptable. 231. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem is what Kyle might have said if he said something. If he had said something about that whole mess, as volatile as he is, he would likely have done something far worse than just storm off. If he had said something after the race, it would likely have made everyone involved, sponsors, his own team, and even NASCAR itself extremely mad at him. Knowing his personality, the best thing Kyle Busch could have done in that situation is exactly what he did do.Kyle knows this, and he knew that the best thing he could say is nothing at all. You're right, Michael Waltrip has parlayed his people skills into car ownershio, and others like his older brother Darrell, along with Ned and Dale Jarrett, Kyle Petty, Benny Parsons, and Wally Dallenbach, Jr. have or did parlay that into commentating careers. Jeff Gordon has parlayed that into guest starring appearances on major television shows such as "Live!" and even one appearance on Saturday Night Live, but some people don't have those skills, and the Busch brothers certainly fit that category. So the best thing Kyle Busch could do in that situation is exactly what he did do. 232. Jim Davis posted: 08.14.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #231: "So the best thing Kyle Busch could do in that situation is exactly what he did do." No, the best thing he could have done is to speak with the media and express his disappointment and frustrations in a mature manner - like Gordon did. Granted, he may not have been capable of that. But that is what should be expected of a well paid, professional race car driver. 233. ESPN posted: 08.14.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember, this is the NEW MATURE Kyle Busch. 234. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's just it. He isn't capable of handling disappointment like that, and he never has been. His older brother Kurt was capable of doing so once, but somehow, he's lost that, as well. And had Kyle Busch said something, or had been pressed to, he would have done something he would have regretted, I guarantee it, which is why I said the best thing he could have done, was to say nothing and move on. Most others would have done as you said Jim, but Kyle Busch isn't capable of handling disppointment like most others, and never has been, and if pressed to say something, I shutter to guess what might have happened. A reporter might have even hit the deck. 235. Rusty posted: 08.14.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle must have taken his anger out on Jason Leffler who was fired from KBM today. Kurt Busch will probably fill in for most races that Leffler, starting with Michigan this weekend. 236. New14 & 88Fan posted: 08.14.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Leffler wasn't doing much in Shurb's truck anyway(though some of it was due to bad luck), so KBM letting him go doesn't surprise me. I think Kurt will be a better fit for that team since he already drives his brother's nationwide car. 237. cjs3872 posted: 08.14.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I think Jason Leffler isn't that good, a fact that history shows, what Denny Hamlin (ironically, the driver that replaced Leffler in JGR's #11 car) said after the Truck race a Pocono is an indictment of the equipment when he said that he "drove the wheels off", and could do no better than fifth. 238. David posted: 08.14.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 20 in the Standings Using My Points System 1. Jimmie Johnson - 996 2. Matt Kenseth - 883 3. Greg Biffle - 862 4. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 856 5. Brad Keselowski - 843 6. Tony Stewart - 820 7. Denny Hamlin - 813 8. Clint Bowyer - 755 9. Kasey Kahne - 730 10. Martin Truex, Jr. - 729 11. Kyle Busch - 680 (WC1) 12. Kevin Harvick - 659 13. Jeff Gordon - 647 (WC2) 14. Carl Edwards - 592 15. Ryan Newman - 591 16. Marcos Ambrose - 513 17. Joey Logano - 503 18. Paul Menard - 483 19. Jeff Burton - 418 20. Jamie McMurray - 404 239. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 1:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, what would be your way of resetting the points when the Chase starts? In post #162, I showed what the Chase field would look like, in terms of points standings, using NASCAR's current system, then weighting each position in the standings three points north of 11th place. Since each driver in the Chase gets an automatic bump to 2000 points, that would give the 10th place driver 2003 points, and the leader 2030. Then I add in three point bonus for each win accumulated by the drivers in the current top ten. Right now, that would give Jimmie Johnson a nine-point lead. though the top three in points would remain as they are now, though none of the positions from fourth through tenth would remain as they currently are, due to bonus points for wins combined with the position points. For instance, using NASCAR's current system, you'd have the drivers in fifth and eighth as co-leaders because position in points doesn't matter, as long as you're in the top ten. That's just plain wrong. Wins should count for something, but so does a team's performance through the first 26 races. Now in a case like this year, that would give Jimmie Johnson a bigger advantage than usual, but he's earned it. With the nine bonus points for wins added to his total for leading the points, I would have him at 2039 points, with a nine-point lead over Greg Biffle. Keselowski would be tied for third (fourth, technically), 12 points behind, instead of being a co-leader, while Tony Stewart would be 21 points back in sixth, instead of another co-leader. That's because they haven't been as good over the course of the season as Johnson, Biffle, and Matt Kenseth have. But to reward the drivers and teams just for the races they've won without taking into account the rest of the season is just ludicrous. In a way, that's why I hope Jeff Gordon doesn't make it, because he'd get in based on one of the luckiest wins in history. Actually, I preferred the straight-up top 12 better for that very reason. A driver can't get in just on a fluke win using the top 12, though even when they did that, the drivers weren't seeded after 2006. Using a combined version of seeding based on points standings in the top ten, then adding the bonus points for wins is much better than what they're doing now. Now if they only got rid of the Wild Card, it would be a lot more legitimate. Getting in on a fluke win, as would be the case with Gordon, just isn't right. If he won again, his case would be more legitimate. But the big problem I had with the Wild Card situation was the fact that a driver could get in the Chase based on a fluke win, and if Gordon gets in based on his win at Pocono, that will be exactly what happens. 240. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If a driver has won like Newman or Gordon has this year, then that win is just as legitimate as Biffle's win at Texas or Dale's win at Michigan. 241. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just what Kyle needs, more chances to get pissed off. 242. murb posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Kyle Busch, his brand new Rageaholic video is now out on Youtube. Some of you may remember the first video in this series about his older brother Kurt. Here's the link to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiG3COT2bVg&feature=g-user-lik 243. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 10:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To answer your question, cjs, I haven't given it a lot of serious thought. To me, a change to the Chase is not a change to the overall points system, so I was going to just reset it like NASCAR does, with a few points per win. But since you asked, I would probably award 6 points per win (except for the wildcards), and starting at 2030 I would descend by three points per position, to get something like this: 1. Jimmie Johnson - 2030 + 18 = 2048 2. Brad Keselowski - 2018 + 18 = 2036 3. Tony Stewart - 2015 + 18 = 2033 4. Matt Kenseth - 2027 + 6 = 2033 5. Greg Biffle - 2024 + 6 = 2030 6. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 2021 + 6 = 2027 7. Denny Hamlin - 2012 + 12 = 2024 8. Kasey Kahne - 2006 + 12 = 2018 9. Clint Bowyer - 2009 + 6 = 2015 10. Martin Truex, Jr. - 2003 + 0 = 2003 11. Kyle Busch - 2000 (WC1) 12. Jeff Gordon - 2000 (WC2) An alternate, simpler idea would be to have the points leader after 26 start the Chase tied with or a few points ahead of the driver with the most wins (assuming it's not the same driver). This is all assuming I use the wildcard system. P.S. Would Gordon's Chase bid be more legitimate to you if he finished the first 26 races in 11th or 12th and neither he or anybody else in the Wild Card battle won again during that stretch? 244. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) First David, you've got the standings wrong as far as the Wild Card goes. Kasey Kahne (11th in points with with 2 wins) is the #1 Wild Card and Ryan Newman (the highest ranked driver with 1 win at 13th) is the #2 Wild Card. You're missing Kevin Harvick, who's currently ninth in points, in your standings. And yes, if Gordon got to 11th or 12th, he would have legitimately earned a Wild Card spot because of overall performance in the first 26 races, and the same goes with Newman. That's been my argument against letting guys in just because the win a race, because they can qualify over a more deserving driver just because they fluke out a win, just as Gordon did at Pocono or Newman did at Martinsville, assuming they're high enough in points. And you're system would still reward winning too much, as the drivers fifth and eighth would still be in that top three just because of their wins. That's why I would reward three points per position for the top ten over 11th, and then add the three points per win after that. If you wanted to reward one thing over the other, I would actually reward points position more than I would wins (maybe five per points position and three for wins or three per points position and two for wins), because of the possibility of fluking out a win, and I wouldn't be surprised if team orders comes into play in the next four races. For instance, if Greg Biffle or Matt Kenseth is leading late and Carl Edwards is running second and is high enough in points, it wouldn't surprise me if Jack Roush had one of those other two move over and let Edwards win, thereby getting him in the Chase. But it's much harder to manipulate points for 26 races, which is why, if given a choice, I would weigh that over just wins. The points standings are a greater reflection of overall performance and consistency than it is how fast you are and how many laps you lead. what difference does that make if you can't finish the job? So I would put a higher premium on points standings than on just wins, if I had to make a choice, but balancing the two is the best option. 245. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 11:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The seedlings I posted were for my system in post #238. That's why some drivers are different. I probably would do it differently under the current system. 246. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 11:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By that, I meant "seed it differently". 247. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought you meant based on the current standings, not the ones based on your system. Now I know I have a point system of my own that gives a point separation from 11th on up to first, leaving what 11th through the balance of the field gets what it is now, but I'm not about to begin trying to recreate the point standings based on it. However, I will say that my system, which would still give 33 points for 11th, would increase two points per position through sixth (i.e., 43 for sixth, 41 for seventh, 39 for eighth, 37 for ninth, and 35 for tenth), then three points per position through second place (i.e., 55 points for second, 52 for third, 49 for fourth, and 46 for fifth), and a five point separation between first and second (meaning 60 points for a win). Bonus points would also remain as they are, with the possible exception of giving bonus points to the top two or three lap leaders (3-2-1), as was done in the IROC series, along with the1 bonus point that you already get for officially leading the race at any point. But I don't think, and never really have thought that qualifying should be part of the championship, since awarding points for qualifying would undo what the one-engine rule has done, since teams would try trick stuff in their engines to gain any points for qualifying, and pay the consequences should they have to change engines prior to the start of the race, especially since only 75-80% of the field intend to run the full distance anyway, so going to the back is like going to 33rd-37th, instead of 43rd at the start. 248. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, that is unfortunate, because I do award 2 points for a pole in my system (I designed it a long time ago), and I would really hate to go back and change it to something else. However, in the entire points system the actual reward for the pole is so small, it is almost insignificant. Besides, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter, as Brian "Simplicity is Everything" France would never change the points system to something as relatively complex as mine. By the way, I like your system too. 249. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, thank you David. My system is designed to do what the Latford system did, to a point, and what today's system fails to do, miserably, and that is to reward consistent performance, while at the same time, penalize failure. That's why there's a spread among the top runners, as winning the race would gain a driver nearly double the amount of points the 11th place finisher gets (60-33), but at the same time, making it so that every position counts for something, which is why the points handout for 11th on back is fine as is. And while you say you would award points for qualifying, that would undo what the one-engine rule did, and that was to eliminate qualifying engines and special qualifying set-ups. If points were awarded for qualifying, a top team would sacrifice starting a race up front for trying to get the pole position, especially since dropping to the back now means starting 33rd-37th, because of all the S&P's today. In fact, that has already happened on the IndyCar circuit this year. Michael Andretti's team for Ryan Hunter-Reay won the pole for a race, realizing his team was going to change engines, knowing they'd have to drop 10 positions prior to the star for the engine change, went all-out for the pole and the points you get for that. What they effectively did was to sacrifice a front starting position for an all-out bid for the pole and the points, and accepted what the penalty was. In effect, they chose the points over the starting position. That's what makes awarding points for qualifying such a bad idea. It undoes the cost cutting measure of permitting teams only to run one engine, except for the Daytona 500, where the rules are different because the format is different. It's also for that reason, along with the fact that nobody did it any more, that second round qualifying in NASCAR was scrapped in 2001-'02. 250. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I get what you mean. 251. Talon64 posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski's the first driver to finish 2nd in back-to-back races at the Glen. But he and Marcos Ambrose have a ways to catch Tony Stewart's record of 6 consecutive top 2 finishes at the Glen (2004-09, 4 wins). Some notable milestones and other stuff: Jimmie Johnson picked up his 125th career podium finish, just 1 behind Ned Jarrett for 12th all time. Brad Keselowski's 19th career top 5 moved him past Joe Nemechek and into a tie with a number of drivers, including Elliott Sadler, for 104th on the all time list. Jimmie Johnson has 159 top 5's in 385 starts in his career. The rest of the top 5 in this race have combined for just 71 top 5's in 606 starts. Matt Kenseth moved past Dave Marcis into sole possession of 24th on the all time list with his 223rd career top 10. Kyle Busch moved past Michael Waltrip into sole possession of 51st on the all time list with his 131st career top 10. Juan Pablo Montoya's 9th career pole has him tied for 62nd all time, but they've all come since 2009 and he ranks 2nd in poles over that span. Bobby Labonte tied Dale Earnhardt (1-2 in the standings in 2000) for 15th on the all time list with his 676th career start. Jeff Gordon is one start behind the both of them in 17th. Kurt Busch tied Jim Paschal for 44th on the all time list with his 421st career start. Greg Biffle and Jamie McMurray tied Ned Jarrett for 62nd all time with their 352nd career starts. 252. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I figured i'd come out of my self-imposed ban because of the whole points system deal. Points=Points Racing. When will people understand this. As long as there points they is points racing (which everyone hates or so i hear. NASCAR fans are 2-faced about certain things) Stop it, just stop it. Re-racking points system isn't goig to solve anything. Getting rid of points is the way go. Wins, Best Average Finish (with tie breakers being wins, laps lead and top 5s) or something else. But stop it, i'm getting a headache. (you people have the right to discuss what you want, i'm obviously joking.) 253. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 20 with cjs' Points System 1. Jimmie Johnson - 925 2. Matt Kenseth - 891 3. Greg Biffle - 885 4. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 877 5. Tony Stewart - 838 6. Brad Keselowski - 836 7. Denny Hamlin - 812 8. Martin Truex, Jr. - 800 9. Clint Bowyer - 799 10. Kevin Harvick - 763 11. Kasey Kahne - 745 (WC1) 12. Kyle Busch - 725 (WC2) 13. Jeff Gordon - 696 14. Ryan Newman - 691 15. Carl Edwards - 688 16. Paul Menard - 641 17. Marcos Ambrose - 626 18. Joey Logano - 621 19. Jeff Burton - 567 20. Jamie McMurray - 549 254. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The points standings are a greater reflection of overall performance and consistency than it is how fast you are and how many laps you lead." Consistency, yes. Performance, no. Dominance is a better reflection of performance than consistency, and a better reflection of future race results (compare Jeff Sagarin's Elo chess ratings to his predictor ratings in other sports...although his NASCAR ratings are pretty awful, I'd STILL take them over NASCAR's far-too-consistency driven points standings... I'd take driver ratings too, although I have some problems with them as well.) "making it so that every position counts for something" NO! That is one of the biggest problems with the NASCAR points system. The positions outside the top 25 should score the same points to keep cars from going back on the track 100 laps down, one of the most unprofessional things about NASCAR's points system over the past several decades (you'd have no instances like Carl Edwards coming back on the track to punt Keselowski at Atlanta in 2010 or Reutimann ruining the race at Martinsville this year if there was no incentive for cars to return to the track). I also think having a differential gap between every position gives WAY too much of a benefit to mid-pack finishers over DNFs (which is essentially what gave Terry Labonte the 1996 title over Jeff Gordon quite undeservedly). Give 26th-43rd the same points, or 26th-35th the same points and 36th-43rd the same points like in IndyCar. Hell, I used to say 0 points outside the top 25, but I suppose giving DNFs the SAME positive number of points is fairer since maybe you should get something for qualifying for the race... I can go either way on points for qualifying. "Points=Points Racing. When will people understand this." Yeah, I do, so you want a points system that encourages running up front, encourages winning and weights the top five positions much more substantially than NASCAR's system ever has, and weights differential finishes in the back half of the field FAR less. This system is even worse than the Latford-era system, even discounting the chase... 255. NicoRosbergFan posted: 08.15.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) However, Sean, Jeff Gordon was so inconsistent in 1996 that he didn't deserve to win the title. Performance should be rewarded, but you are all asking that NASCAR actually punish people for being able to perform for a full slate and only reward those who put a handful of top-notch races. 256. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, I might as well post my previously undisclosed system for scrutiny. 1. 84 2. 59 3. 55 4. 51 5. 47 6. 43 7. 40 8. 37 9. 34 10. 31 11. 28 12. 26 13. 24 14. 22 15. 20 16. 18 17. 17 18. 16 19. 15 20. 14 21. 13 22. 12 23. 11 24. 10 25. 9 26. 8 27. 8 28. 8 29. 7 30. 7 31. 7 32. 6 33. 6 34. 6 35. 5 36. 5 37. 5 38. 4 39. 4 40. 4 41. 3 42. 3 43. 3 Bonus Points: Laps Led - 2 Most Led - 2 Pole - 2 (I'm considering taking this off, any ideas on what could replace it?) 257. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Quick question Sean, where do you get your post-entry statistics? I'm in the process of calculating the 1981 season with my system, and Racing Reference has had no zeroes under their points column, while Race-Database has had several instances where there are no listed points for a driver. I can only assume these are due to post-entries. 258. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "However, Sean, Jeff Gordon was so inconsistent in 1996 that he didn't deserve to win the title. Performance should be rewarded, but you are all asking that NASCAR actually punish people for being able to perform for a full slate and only reward those who put a handful of top-notch races." No. Labonte was NOT more consistent. They had the same number of top 5s and the same number of top 10s. Labonte was rewarded for finishing mid-pack while Gordon was punished for DNFs, even though Gordon was a BILLION times stronger in the actual races... That, in my opinion, was criminal. If it had been: Terry Labonte - 2 - 28 - 29 Jeff Gordon - 10 - 17 - 22 or something, maybe I could see it. But no way does 2-21-24 deserve a title over 10-21-24... You might be able to make an argument like that in 1985 or 1993 (although Rusty actually had more top 5s and the same number of top 10s, so I'd lean toward Rusty that year, but Earnhardt was certainly more consistent from track-to-track), but not 1996. 259. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Quick question Sean, where do you get your post-entry statistics? I'm in the process of calculating the 1981 season with my system, and Racing Reference has had no zeroes under their points column, while Race-Database has had several instances where there are no listed points for a driver. I can only assume these are due to post-entries." Yes, those were post entries according to NOL, although I think NOL in recent years has made their really old archives impossible to access, so you'd have to use the Internet archive to confirm what I have... 260. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Nico, I'd take Elliott in '85 without question and Rusty in '93 pretty confidently. But at least those you can debate. I'm not sure how you can tout Terry's consistency in '96 when Gordon had the same number of top 5s and top 10s. Should finishing 17th give you THAT much of an advantage over finishing 37th? I say NO. 261. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's even worse than I thought. Terry only had one finish between 11th and 20th in 1996, same as Gordon. So Terry was being rewarded for 21st-30th place finishes while Gordon was getting killed by 35th-42nd place finishes. Is Terry's consistency THAT much better to warrant a championship? NO. And that's why every position getting fewer points than the position before is a big problem with ALL of NASCAR's points systems... 262. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgive my ignorance, but what is NOL? 263. Sean posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR Online, former name for nascar dot com. I was trying to avoid putting a link in the post... 264. Red posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I'm with you 100%. Dominance is what matters, especially when you're giving someone the title of "Champion." Who cares if a driver can finish 26th instead of 36th? He sucked in either case. Here is my points system: 1st - 100 2nd - 90 3rd - 80 4th - 70 5th - 60 6th - 50 7th - 45 8th - 40 9th - 35 10th - 30 11th - 25 12th - 22 13th - 19 14th - 16 15th - 13 16th - 10 17th - 9 18th - 8 19th - 7 20th - 6 21st - 5 22nd - 4 23rd - 3 24th - 2 25th - 1 26th and worse - 0 However, I also reward each additional win with 10 points more than the one before it. A driver's first win is 100, his second is 110, his third 120, and so on. This prevents one-time fluke winners from getting too much of a bonus, but it puts a major premium on scoring as many wins as possible in a season. To me, that's the perfect way to balance it. For leading laps, I would give a 5 point bonus for leading the most, plus one point for every 5% of the race led, for a maximum bonus of 25. For example, at Watkins Glen, Kyle Busch would receive a 14 point bonus for leading 47% of the race and leading the most. Brad K would receive an 8 point bonus for leading 41% of the race. And yes, I realize the 2nd or 3rd place finisher could score more points than the winner, and honestly I don't have a problem with that. If the runner-up leads 80% of the race and the winner only leads one lap, I think the 2nd place guy ran a better overall race and deserves more points. Plus, it would give drivers incentive to run hard during the first half of the race, in an effort to lead laps and collect bonus points. 265. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, thanks for the information, Sean. I appreciate it. 266. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 08.15.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah, I do, so you want a points system that encourages running up front, encourages winning and weights the top five positions much more substantially than NASCAR's system ever has, and weights differential finishes in the back half of the field FAR less. This system is even worse than the Latford-era system, even discounting the chase..." If you want to prove your the best, FINISH UP FRONT. If you miss the set-up, make a mistake and or wreck (reguardless if its your fault or not), sorry better luck next race, you should be penalized for it. Sean, take out "points system" in your sentence and i agree 100%. Has anyone done something with Money? What do racecar drivers like more then collect big shiny trophies, hot women and going fast? Collecting lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I challenge anyone here to come up with a system that uses money to determine a champion. (note i do realize that todays teams can't use this system to support themselves, something like the point fund for money can still be used but not toward determining a champion.) And whatever money that they win they can keep. 267. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @264 Wow, Red. Nice points system. Now go and calculate it. Haha! 268. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, that points system you mentioned, with your idea of "add-on" bonus points is absurd, because it does the one thing no points system should ever do, and that's reward cheating, or give teams incentive to cheat. And as for those that say that making every position count give teams incentives to bring wrecked, or broken down cars back on the track. I have an answer for that, too. Give teams that have had mechanical failures one chance to get back on the track and keep minimum speed. If they can do that, let them stay on the track, but once a car goes to the garage due to a wreck (except maybe for Daytona and Talladega, where up to two-thirds of the field might be in wrecks), they're out of the race, right then and there. That will take care of the practice of teams rolling wrecks out of the garage area. What happened to Reutimann at Martinsville was unrelated to his earlier problems that day, as he stopped on the track because his engine blew. That's something that nothing could have been done about, and could have happened to anyone. Also, wrecked cars coming back on to the track makes for a high possibility of debris cautions (legitimate ones), which tend to ruin the flow of the race. Just increase the amount of points given to the top finishers, but leave the final three-quarters of the field the points they're currenlty given. That's what my idea would do, and look at what you have in the standings David came up with in post #253. The top four drivers all season are exactly where they should be, with Johnson having a sizeable lead, since he's been the best all year, and the three next-most successful drivers folowing them are in positions 5, 6, and 7. It's exactly as it should be. And the top ten, as a group, are also unchanged, as they've been the ten drivers and teams that have best combined performance with consistency all year. Again, as it should be. Kasey Kahne, Kyle Busch, and recently Jeff Gordon have been a little faster and finished higher than some of those drivers in front of them, but they've been wildly inconsistent, and don't deserve to be in the top 10, and they aren't. 269. David posted: 08.15.2012 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad you approve of your own points system. Now you get to calculate it for the rest of the year. *tee hee* The reason I was able to calculate it so quickly is because I used a shortcut. I merely calculated the amount of extra points that drivers would have by finishing in the top 10, and then added the current standings to that sum. That addition produces the exact numbers under your system. Extra points in the top 10 are: +17 for winning +13 for second +11 for third +9 for fourth +7 for fifth +5 for sixth +4 for seventh +3 for eighth +2 for ninth +1 for tenth In that way, you only need to keep track of the top 10 finishers in each race. 270. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.15.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always felt the bonus point system for leading laps should be incremental. And I am for the idea of each win per season. I like that. 271. cjs3872 posted: 08.15.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, your calculations showed what the results of my points system would be in relation to what the overall results on the track have been, and for the top seven in points using my system, it's spot on. I'm more pleased about the results you unearthed rather than my system itself, because it proved that the top four are where they should be, the next three, and the three after that are exactly where they should be. But also, a bad race is penalized even more under my syatem, but can be made up easier. But the overall point of my system is this. Drivers just do not have the incentive to race up front any more, because the difference between second and third in points in a race is exactly the same as the difference between 42nd and 43rd, which is just plain wrong, and is the reason why there's no incentive to race up front. In fact, no less of an authority than Darrell Waltrip believes the points system is a big reason for the prolonged periods of green flag racing this year, because there's no real reason to race up front. He said so earlier this year at Richmond, and that conservative driving is one of the things that has led to all the green flag racing this year, along with the shorter fuel runs making tire conservation a non-factor, the start-and-parks lessening the on-track traffic, and the ways cars can get laps back, sometimes in bunches, are all causes of the relative lack of competition this year, but the points system is high up on that list of factors. 272. Mr X posted: 08.16.2012 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have been working on this for a long time, I've created some spreadsheets, and have tabulated the champion drivers from each modern era season including the 1972-1974 seasons. My system is quite complicated, and the numbers are huge, but the latford system was also viewed the same way, however in time (the latford system was around for 35 freaking years with only two minor changes to the way points were awarded.) any system could become relatively simple, and let's not forget how often the TV broadcasts made any effort at all to explain anything other then the bonus points. NASCAR has two choices a simple points system that caters to the fans who don't give a damn and don't want to put in the effort to understand a better one, or a more complicated system that does a better job of giving credit where credit is due. It's similar to the latford and current systems in that points are only awarded based on laps led and finishing position, but I tweaked the number very close to perfection I think. 1st-1580 2nd-1400 3rd-1340 4th-1280 5th-1240 6th-1200 7th-1160 8th-1120 9th-1080 10th-1040 11th-1000 12th-960 13th-928 14th-896 15th-864 16th-832 17th-800 18th-768 19th-736 20th-704 21st-672 22nd-640 23rd-608 24th-576 25th-544 26th-512 27th-480 28th-460 29th-440 30th-420 31st-400 32nd-380 33rd-360 34th-340 35th-320 36th-300 37th-280 38th-260 39th-240 40th-220 41st-200 42nd-180 43rd-160 Bonus points are awarded as such, number of laps led by driver/number of laps in race*170. The number of bonus points earned in a race are directly proportional to how many laps were led, and although this is probably the most complicated part of the system, think of what this means, every lap led is earning you points. If the car is capable of leading there is no excuse to ride in 2nd, and there is always incentive to lead. Example #1, Jeff led 329 of 515 laps in Martinsville. 329/515*170=108.60, Example #2, Dale Jr led 95 of 200 at MIS. 95/200*170=80.75. The bonus points from each race are added with the decimals, and rounded to the nearest point afterwards. Example, after 22 races JJ leads with 557.75 which at this point rounds up to 558 bonus points. KyBu is actually second in bonus points with 399 at this point in the year. I originally tried this system with only 100 bonus points awarded per race, however I found that at seasons end they just weren't worth enough, as you had to lead roughly over 3000 laps just to get 1000 bonus points a year and I then bumped it to 170 per race. Just to be clear, the number of bonus points earned in a season is not relative to how many laps you led, it is relative to the average portion of the race you led in all 36 races. If you average leading 10% of all 36 races you will earn 612 bonus points for the year. 17*36=612. 1st and 2nd are seperated by 180 points giving a good bonus for winning, however if the 2nd place driver absolutely dominates the race most of the race nearly 170 of that 180 point gap can be erased. 2nd through 4th are seperated by 60 points each giving a healthy bonus for finishes on the podium, and although NASCAR doesn't recognize podiums, those drivers are the only ones in the post-race press conference. 4th through 12th are seperated by 40 points each giving plenty of incentive to drivers in the top dozen, as they are almost always on the lead lap, and for smaller teams that's an excellent finish. 12th through 27th are seperated by 32 points each(do not ask why I didn't go 30 for each) as these finishes are mid pack, and not really that impressive for any teams involved but they generally did finish the race. 27th through 43rd are seperated by 20 points each, because these spots are almost meaningless as teams are in and out the garage and having trouble. These finishes should be punished, however slightly. 160 for 43rd is roughly 10% of 1580 for a win, which sounds about right to me, 34 for 43rd was nearly 20% of 175, 180, or 185 for a win under the latford system which was too generous, and 1 point for 43rd is just over 2% of the 46 for a win, which does the exact opposite of what NASCAR wanted to do with this system when they introduced it in 2011, simplify and reward winning. With this system a poor finish is punished to a much greater degree then a win is rewarded. With my system a maximum points day involves leading every lap for 170 bonus points, and winning, for a total of 1750 points, and the maximum amount of points that can be gained or lost in one race with a 43 car field is 1590 points. I have the top 15 in points with my system as of Watkins Glen and I will update you guys for the rest of the year, both with and without the chase. Top 15 Driver-Points Total-Bonus Points-(Difference) 1. Jimmie Johnson-25154-558-(Leader) 2. Greg Biffle-24314-326-(-840) 3. Matt Kenseth-24278-274-(-876) 4. Dale Earnhardt Jr.-23896-204-(-1258) 5. Brad Keselowski-23055-247-(-2099) 6. Tony Stewart-22858-246-(-2296) 7. Martin Truex Jr.-22511-203-(-2643) 8. Clint Bowyer-22424-112-(-2730) 9. Denny Hamlin-21960-332-(-3194) 10. Kevin Harvick-21672-64-(-3482) 11. Kasey Kahne-20761-105-(-4393) WC1 12. Kyle Busch-20135-399-(-5019) WC2 13. Carl Edwards-19962-90-(-5192) 14. Ryan Newman-19808-4-(-5346) 15. Jeff Gordon-19569-185-(-5585) 273. Red posted: 08.16.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Red, that points system you mentioned, with your idea of "add-on" bonus points is absurd, because it does the one thing no points system should ever do, and that's reward cheating, or give teams incentive to cheat." What a nonsensical, baseless argument. You really think that giving teams more incentive to win will cause everyone to cheat? Last time I checked, other racing series like IndyCar and F1 give a substantial bonus for winning, and those series aren't riddled with cheating scandals. Using your logic, teams under the current system have just as much incentive to cheat, since 2+ wins pretty much guarantees you a spot in the chase. I want a system that rewards competition, innovation, and maximum effort at all times. If some teams push the envelope of the rulebook a bit, where's the harm in that? It's a hell of a lot better than a spec series where everyone is stuck in a box and all the cars run the same speed. Oh wait, we already have that. Lets put it this way: I have more respect for an aggressive team that does whatever it takes to win (like the #48), than a team that is content to just ride around and passively collect points (RCR). If anything, I think the sport would be better off with more rogue crew chiefs and outside-the-box thinkers, not a bunch of guys who are afraid to try anything beacuse it might be an "action deterimental to stock car racing." 274. Mr X posted: 08.16.2012 - 1:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Due to the fact that I don't really like the chase that much, I haven't really bothered to come up with my own method of how to seed it, however if I were to do so I would be a carbon copy of the Hybrid between the way the chase was seeded between 2004-2006 and 2007-2012 that Cjs brought up, seeding them in order of how they finished in points after race 26 in Richmond plus some bonus points for winning. I did however copy NASCAR's systems. After 36 races under the latford system generally the champions point total for the year was hovering around 5000 points, and when the chase started in 2004 the 10th and final chase driver started with 5000 points, and for each points position you gained you gained 0.1% of 5000 points, which is 5. With my system after 36 races I found that the champions point total generally hovers around 40000, between 2004 and 2006 the 10th and final chase driver began with 40000, and for each position you gained, you gained 0.1% of 40000 which is 40. For 2007 NASCAR changed the seeding for the chase, each of the now 12 drivers would start with 5000 points plus 10 bonus points for each win. I did some math and found that 10 is 0.2% of 5000, so I decided that for 2007 each of the 12 chase drivers would recieve 0.2% of 40000, which equals 80 bonus points for each win until 2010. For 2011 NASCAR again changed the seeding. The 11th and 12th drivers would now be the winningest drivers between 11th and 20th in points. However all chase drivers would now start with 2000 points, and wins would only get 3 bonus points, however without the chase no champion would ever reach 2000 points, Carl only reached 1278 last year. 3=0.15% of 2000 and 0.2% of 1500 points a slightly more realistic target for a champion after 36 races is 3 points. Basically what I'm saying is that I didn't change anything for 2011, other then the wildcards. Each driver starts with 40000, drivers 1-10 earn 80 bonus points for each win in the first 26 races and the 11th and 12th drivers are the winningest drivers or highest point scoring drivers between 11th and 20th in points. At the current moment 2011 is the only year where I have calculated the standing without the chase, after 26 races to see who made it in the chase, and the chase standings. All 12 chase drivers were the same. Here are some modern era champions. 1972: Bobby Allison 1973: Cale Yarborough 1974: Richard Petty 1975: Richard Petty 1976: Cale Yarborough 1977: Cale Yarborough 1978: Cale Yarborough 1979: Richard Petty 1980: Cale Yarborough 1981: Darrell Waltrip 1982: Darrell Waltrip 1983: Darrell Waltrip* 1984: Terry Labonte 1985: Bill Elliott 1986: Dale Earnhardt 1987: Dale Earnhardt 1988: Bill Elliott 1989: Dale Earnhardt* 1990: Dale Earnhardt 1991: Dale Earnhardt 1992: Bill Elliott 1993: Rusty Wallace* 1994: Dale Earnhardt 1995: Jeff Gordon 1996: Jeff Gordon 1997: Jeff Gordon 1998: Jeff Gordon 1999: Dale Jarrett 2000: Bobby Labonte 2001: Jeff Gordon 2002: Tony Stewart 2003: Matt Kenseth 2004: Jimmie Johnson 2005: Tony Stewart 2006: Jimmie Johnson 2007: Jeff Gordon 2008: Carl Edwards 2009: Jimmie Johnson 2010: Kevin Harvick 2011: Carl Edwards 2011 with Chase: Tony Stewart(not in a tie with Edwards) *This means that the Latford system champion, Allison in '83, Wallace in '89, and Earnhardt in '93 went into the season finale with the points lead however the criteria for winning the title would've been higher then it actually was. Whether or not these drivers could've delivered we'll never know. 275. Red posted: 08.16.2012 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wow, Red. Nice points system. Now go and calculate it. Haha!" I already have spreadsheets for finshes and % led for each race, so it only took me 15 minutes to calculate the standings under my system: 1) Johnson 1283 2) Kenseth 1055 -228 3) Junior 1031 -252 4) Biffle 1017 -266 5) Stewart 998 -285 6) Hamlin 973 -310 7) Keselowski 963 -320 8) Bowyer 827 -456 9) Kahne 815 -468 10)Truex 805 -478 11)Ky Busch 789 -494 12)Harvick 671 -612 13)Gordon 647 -636 14)Edwards 574 -709 15)Newman 556 -727 16)Logano 435 -848 17)Ambrose 417 -866 18)Martin 377 -906 19)Menard 373 -910 20)Burton 333 -950 I think this paints a more realistic picture of what's happened in 2012 than the 43-1 system does. Notice how drivers with multiple wins and many top 5's move up (Stewart, Hamlin, Kahne), while strokers like Truex, Harvick, and Menard move down. That's how it should be, IMO. Also notice how far ahead Jimmie is compared to the other top drivers; JJ leads or is tied for the series lead in wins, top 5's, top 10's, and % led. He's been the dominant driver, and my system reflects that. 276. cjs3872 posted: 08.16.2012 - 2:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Red, I don't think the "add-on" bonus for winning will cause teams to cheat, but it would give them incentive to, and that is my problem. Guys like Chad Knaus, who may be the biggest cheater in the sport's history, may deliberately do things to cheat up the cars, which I've suspected he's done before to give his drivers a big edge, such as what he's recently done with the rear end of his car to give his driver such a big edge at Indy. Everyone knows what he did is illegal, but NASCAR doesn't have anyone smart enough to figure out what it is he's done. After all, unless it's something to do with the engine, the odds of someone getting caught blatantly cheating is extremely small. That's why I think cheating has skyrocketed since 2002, when Gary Nelson stepped down as NASCAR's chief inspector, because Nelson actually knew what a lot of the teams did, since he did them himself. But when Nelson stepped out of that role to work on the development of the car being used today, teams that couldn't get away with stuff began getting away with things that were against the rules right and left, because they knew that NASCAR no longer had a chief inspector capable of catching them, and they still don't. But the reason I don't like the idea of awarding a big bonus for winning is that it provides the incentive to cheat, not that many of the teams do, because they don't, but those that do (such as the #48 team) get a big advantage. 277. Anonymous posted: 08.16.2012 - 4:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Everyone knows what he did is illegal, but NASCAR doesn't have anyone smart enough to figure out what it is he's done." So, what exactly did Knaus do that was illegal and where was this mentioned officially? 278. LordLowe posted: 08.16.2012 - 6:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're point system suggestions are not going to be taken seriously by NASCAR because it is run by idiots. NASCAR is dying there is no hope left even the rats are starting to jump off the sinking ship 279. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is too bad that all of this intelligent talk about how to determine the champion will go for naught. 280. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr. X, how many pencils did you wear out coming up with that system? 281. cjs3872 posted: 08.16.2012 - 10:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why I say what Knaus did with the rear ends of his cars is illegal is that there's a line in the rulebook that says that the cars can't be "yawed out" more than one degree from straight, and judging by what other drivers said at Indy, they were doing so by more than that. That rule was passed in the middle of the 2008 season. Now frankly, they shouldn't even be allowed to intentionally "yaw" their cars out at all. They should be forced to run them straight. What Knaus did, if what is being said is true, is clearly illegal, but NASCAR isn't clever enough to catch what it is they're doing. Except for when Gary Nelson was in charge, they've always been at least two steps behind the crew chiefs on stuff like that, if not more. As a result of that, other teams will have to be doing the same thing. Another place teams were cheating were in the fuel cell. Remember all those fuel mileage wins Ryan Newman had in 2003? I believe most, if not all those were because they ran an oversized fuel cell, or a fuel cell that was pressurized so it could hold more than the legal amount. It wouldn't surprise me if teams are doing that now (especially the #2 team). In fact, I wonder how many of those cars that finished up front at Indy last year did so with legal-sized fuel cells? The reason I ask that has to do with the fact that they can only get 75-80 miles out of a tank of fuel. If that can be stretched to 85-90 miles, that could be a big advantage, depending on the place. 282. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.16.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love these ideas for a better points system. Very interesting to read and digest. Why aren't they doing this in Daytona Beach? 283. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No idea. Someone should tell them to read the Racing Reference comment boards. 284. LordLowe posted: 08.16.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because the people in Daytona Beach are a bunch of Imbeciles who could screw up something as simple as a pizza delivery. 285. Talon64 posted: 08.16.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've put together how many top 5's and top 10's every organization has so far in 2012, plus their total number of starts in brackets. Teams without a top 5 or a top 10 aren't included. I've also done the % of top 5's/10's per start and the % of total top 5's/10's available. Top 5's: HMS: 30 (88) Roush: 20 (67) JGR: 17 (66) MWR: 14 (66) SHR: 12 (44) Penske: 10 (45) RCR: 5 (72) Phoenix Racing: 1 (22) RPM: 1(44) Top 5 % (of starts): HMS: 34.1% Roush: 29.9% JGR: 25.8% MWR: 21.2% SHR: 27.3% Penske: 22.2% RCR: 6.9% Phoenix Racing: 4.5% RPM: 2.3% Top 5 % (of 110 available top 5's so far in 2012): HMS: 27.27% Roush: 18.18% JGR: 15.45% MWR: 12.73% SHR: 10.91% Penske: 9.09% RCR: 4.55% Phoenix Racing: 0.91% RPM: 0.91% Top 10's: HMS: 51 (88) Roush: 37 (67) MWR: 32 (66) JGR: 28 (66) SHR: 18 (44) RCR: 17 (72) Penske: 16 (45) RPM: 8 (44) EGR: 5 (44) Wood Brothers: 2 (8) Phoenix Racing: 2 (22) Furniture Row: 2 (22) JTG-D: 1 (22) FRM: 1 (65) Top 10 % (of starts): HMS: 58% Roush: 55.2% MWR: 48.5% JGR: 42.4% SHR: 40.1% Penske: 35.6% Wood Brothers: 25% RCR: 23.6% RPM: 18.2% EGR: 11.4% Furniture Row: 9.1% Phoenix Racing: 9.1% JTG-D: 4.5% FRM: 1.5% Top 10 % (of 220 available top 10's so far in 2012): HMS: 23.18% Roush: 16.82% MWR: 14.55% JGR: 12.73% SHR: 8.18% RCR: 7.73% Penske: 7.27% RPM: 3.64% EGR: 2.27% Wood Brothers: 0.91% Phoenix Racing: 0.91% Furniture Row: 0.91% JTG-D: 0.45% FRM: 0.45% There's 4 teams with top 10's in 2012 who don't have a top 5: The Wood Brothers, Furniture Row, JTG-D and Front Row. 286. Red posted: 08.16.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I love these ideas for a better points system. Very interesting to read and digest. Why aren't they doing this in Daytona Beach?" Because the suits in Daytona think their system is perfect the way it is. Just like how B.F. insists that "nobody complains about the chase", he also believes the current points system is "the easiest for fans to understand." I don't think the NASCAR brass ever sat down and had a serious brainstorming session about how to create the best system; rather, they just decided to go with the simplest choice regardless of how well (or poorly) it actually works. Besides, on a philosophical level, NASCAR has always focused on consistency, and for some reason they seem stubbornly intent to stick with that no matter what. I don't understand why they keep saying "we're putting more emphasis on winning" when they clearly don't have any intention to do so. This brings me to a point I've made a few times before: Championships are overrated, at least in the conventional way that most people think about them. Regardless of which system has been in place, I've never assumed that the guy with the most points necessarily had the best season. I would say nearly half the time, the points system gets it wrong. With that in mind, I just use my own stats and subjective reasoning to decide who had the best season. That being said, I still think championship battles represent an important part of a driver's legacy, because they reveal how well different drivers respond to pressure. As DSFF has pointed out, Earnhardt was 7/8 in closing championships, which is a big feather in his cap. He never choked away a title, and even when he didn't win, he put the pressure on the guy ahead to keep it close (think `89 and `95). Same deal for Jimmie Johnson. His chase comebacks in 2004, 2006, and 2010 showed superior mental toughness, even though he didn't win in `04. Compare that to a guy like Kyle Busch, who so far has pissed away every opportunity he's had to contend for a championship. Denny epically gagged in 2010. Carl made one huge mistake in 2008, and couldn't win a race to keep Tony at bay in 2011. And of course Jeff Gordon is famous for his late season fades. In other words, I don't really care about a driver's raw championship total; I care about how well he performed when the pressure was at its highest, regardless of whether or not that performance resulted in a Cup. 287. Spen posted: 08.16.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why aren't they doing this in Daytona Beach?" Because last season ended in a tie, and the driver with the most wins won. It was pretty much the best result they could possibly have hoped for. They'll change it when we have a year where Johnson skips Homestead because he's already won the title. 288. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Exactly. Brian France must think that NASCAR's fans have a low average IQ, otherwise he wouldn't implement. a points system that even a rat could understand. 289. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My previous comment was in response to #286. And I put a period in the middle of the sentence. In response to #287, while last season's championship was exciting to watch, it was pretty much the WORST case scenario for anybody who wanted the ridiculosly simple points system changed. The funny thing is that now since Tony Stewart won on the tiebreaker, the brass (more like copper) in Daytona and the press have been touting the importance of wins. THAT'S THE WAY THEY'VE ALWAYS BROKEN TIES, YOU IDIOTS!! The even more hilarious thing is that they've been contradicting themselves. If wins are so important, how come Stewart had to win FIVE of them, all during the Chase, to overcome Edwards three-point seed bonus from winning his ONLY race of the season, at Las Vegas? Stewart scored 403 points during the Chase to Edwards's 400. Stewart won five races in that span to Edwards's zero. 290. JRacingFast posted: 08.16.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What ever happened to the 79/52/and 74 cars??? 291. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.16.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Imagine Brain (not a typo) France trying to deliver a pizza. He'd be told to deliver one to the infield of Daytona and somehow wind up at Chicagoland. Then state that since it is a "bigger market" (cause nothing says big market like "Joliet, IL") it deserved the pizza more. 292. Red posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart scored 403 points during the Chase to Edwards's 400. Stewart won five races in that span to Edwards's zero." That's what kills me about NASCAR and its dumb media jockeys saying "See, wins matter!" When you have a battle where the win totals are 5 vs. 0, and it STILL ends up in a tie, your system has a major problem. Brian and Co. were literally bailed out of a PR nightmare by one freaking point. You guys are right that the system needs to blow up in their faces before they change it. It'd be great to see Martin Truex take the title with no wins, while Tony or Jimmie wins 3 in the chase and 7 overall yet gets shafted out of a championship. I would LOVE to see Brian squirm at the trophy ceremony, and have to face a barrage of reporters questioning the integrity of his system. Please let this happen! 293. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yup. We need something like that to happen so they would change the points system. Plus, it would be neat to see Truex win. 294. Mr X posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually David, none. I started with the benchmark of actual NASCAR points systems, the latford system. As all it ever needed to be perfect was some minor tweeks to top and bottom positions. I felt poor finishes were going just a little to unpunished as opposed to a mediocre finish, and good finishes were never even close to being rewarded enough over a mediocre finish. I also desperately wanted to fix my biggest pet peeve with the latford system, the bonus points for leading laps. I'll bring up a race everyone knows well, the 1992 Hooters 500, Alan Kulwicki led 103 laps, the most, earning him 10 bonus points, Bill Elliott led 102 less, 99% of what Alan led, but got 5 bonus points, 3rd place finisher Geoff Bodine led 1 lap, and got 5 points like Bill. That to me was over simplified and unfair. I wanted the number of bonus points earned in a race to be relative to the number of laps led in a race. Originally I started with a BP system that would NEVER involve decimal numbers, and would give drivers a certain number of points for leading a certain portion of the race, 45%-55% laps led might equal 10 points for example, but after some fumbling around shortened races, and GWC's this proved annoying, and basically reverted to finding the average percentage led in a year, and rounding that. Then in search of more precise numbers I doubled the numbers several times, and fiddled around with the weighting. I wanted a system that rewards what I believe we all want to see rewarded, dominance, however I also wanted consistancy to mean something aswell. I actually created folders in my computer for each season, each season has what I called a "points sheet," which is basically a clever spreadsheet where I listed all the races and figured out how many bonus points each lap would be worth in each race. Basically to figure out any drivers points total for any year, is plug in the drivers finishes and laps led in each race, and save it in the same folder as a different file. The important thing is looking at the standings, do you like it. 295. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So...how long did it take you to calculate the standings for a season? Yes, I do like the current standings. 296. Mr X posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe 5-10 minutes per driver. 297. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I calculate my points race-by-race and it takes me WAY longer. 298. David posted: 08.16.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like, WAY longer. 299. cjs3872 posted: 08.16.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And of course Mr X, in that 1992 Hooters 500, Kulwicki only led the most laps because Terry Labonte stayed out after Kulwicki and Elliott pitted and led two laps near the end, possibly to get even with Junior Johnson, who fired him in 1989. Those two laps cost Eliott, because if it weren't for that, he would have led the most laps, and won the championship the same way Tony Stewart won it last year, in a tie-breaker (5 wins to Alan Kulwicki's 2). And Talon64, you mention top 10 percentage by team, and you note that the Wood Brothers have finished in the top ten one-quarter of the time, despite running only eight races. That's currently the seventh-highest percentage, and ahead of three heavily backed teams, one of which (RCR) is going to have a driver (Kevin Harvick) in the Chase, and ahead of Richard Petty's team, the status of which is currently in limbo. We know the Wood Brothers get help from Roush, but how having Penske rejoining the Ford rank affecst them, I donlt know. But the fact that they've done as well, if not better than Richard Petty's team is, to me, astonishing, since they're a part-time team. In fact, you go back to Indy, which was the last race the Woods ran, Trevor Bayne passed BOTH of Richard Petty's cars in the closing laps, and finished 17th (and might have moved up to 16th past Sam Hornish, Jr. had there been one or two more laps), while RPM's two cars finished 19th and 20th. That tells me that, if they don't have problems, that the Woods can be Ford's #2 team in the races they run, or certainly close enough to RPM for that slot in some of the races they run. What we won't know until next year is how Penske's rejoining the Ford ranks will affect the #21 car next year. 300. LordLowe posted: 08.17.2012 - 7:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To Borrow A quote from Bane and directed towards Brian France. When your empire is in ashes you have my permission to DIE. 301. Jordan posted: 08.17.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about something like this... 1st - 50 2nd - 42 3rd - 41 4th - 40 5th - 39 .... 43rd - 1 BUT, these points are only awarded if the driver finishes within 5 laps of the leader. Otherwise, the driver receives 5 points if they complete more than half distance, or 1 point if less than half. 3 bonus points for leading the most laps, 1 for a pole, no points for leading a single lap. I think a system like this could stop the slow cars missing 90% of their sheet metal from coming back on the track, and it would seriously make the start-and-parkers actually consider racing for a while. This would also reward dominance for the driver who leads the most laps, and discourage the policy of staying out one lap longer to lead a lap, which always seemed like a cheap trick to me. 302. David posted: 08.17.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Now THERE'S an idea. 303. Spen posted: 08.17.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: A quick question. When converting NASCAR points to F1 points, how do you translate point penelties? 304. cjs3872 posted: 08.17.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, the answer to that question is a easy one. NASCAR points, especially for winning, are just about double what you get for winning an F1 race (48 vs. 25). For instance, a standard tech violation today usually results in a loss of six points, so it would translate to three in the F1 scoring system used today. And Jordan, there are problems with your idea. First, what if you have a race where there are only 15-20 cars within five laps of the lead, something that could easily happen at Daytona or Talladega with all the wrecks. Then there's the aspect of how the free pass and wave-around rules can affect this, because cars can easily make up 3-5 laps, dependng on the track, just on wave-arounds. I even remember Kyle Busch once making up 4 laps in aroad course race just on free passes, and David Ragan making up 4 or 5 laps that same way at Martinsville one time. The thing I like best about that idea would be your idea of how the points would affect the S&P teams, but the teams don't do that for points, anyway, but often do so to build up qualifying attempts in case of a qualifying rainout. Again, I say that NASCAR could easily legislate against teams bringing wrecked cars back on the track by passing a rule that says that once a car gos to the garage due to a crash, it can't return to the race. Now, I don't have that same view toward cars that go to the garage due to a mechanical problem, because quite a number of those can be repaired to the point that you wouldn't know the car ever had a problem. But I think leading the race should be rewarded, even if it's under caution, and the teams that use that tactic are often well down in points, so that one point is more valuable to them than it would be a front-running team. 305. David posted: 08.17.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually haven't thus far, because I've only done the 1976 season. If a penalized driver does not finish in the top ten, I would ignore the penalty. Probably not the best idea, so I would do what cjs suggested. A 25 point penalty in the Latford system equals a 6 point penalty today, which equals probably a 3 point penalty under the F1 system. 306. David posted: 08.17.2012 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Out of curiosity, which season(s) are you doing? 307. Spen posted: 08.17.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm doing all the modern era seasons. The one that brought up the question was Richard Petty's win at the fall Charlotte race in 1983. He was penalized 104 points for that win. I suppose that using Cjs's methodology, that would translate to about 12 points, which seems like an awfully low total to me. 308. David posted: 08.17.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I know. In my system, a 45- to 50-point penalty is about the equivalent of being docked 104 points in the Latford system, which, in Petty's case, would bring his total down to 36-41 points. 8th place in the system is worth 37 points. 309. cjs3872 posted: 08.17.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, Petty's point penalty in 1983 would be about a 30-point penalty today, usin the ratios. I don't know the exact total, but it would come out to somewhere between 27 and 30 points out of 48 today. 310. Anonymous posted: 08.18.2012 - 4:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regarding only awarding points to those who complete a specified distance - This isn't a new idea and is actually something I would like to see NASCAR implement, although I think the criteria suggested previously wouldn't really work in the best way. What I would put forward, is a system where points were only awarded to those who actually finish the race (as in, those who take the chequered flag), with a clause that to be classified as a finisher, you must have completed at least 50% of the laps that the leader completed. Thoughts? 311. 1995z71 posted: 08.18.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ADMIN: DNF Correction: Juan Pablo Montoya: Suspension not crash. (broke a lower control arm, never hit the wall) 312. Jordan posted: 08.22.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @310: Jimmie Johnson did not finish at Michigan, yet was only 2 or 3 laps down at the end. So he would get 0 points while people who he beat get points? 313. Nate posted: 12.31.2012 - 11:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about adding decimals to the points like they did back in the 60's :P 314. ch posted: 07.18.2013 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #26 Sponsor: MDS Transport (consistent with all 2012/2013 starts) 315. Trent posted: 05.09.2019 - 11:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) i was sitting in the Riesbeck section and when kyle slipped on the oil slick we were all screaming our heads off it was the best things ever it was hillarious 316. Canadianfan posted: 12.19.2019 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Brad breaking down the finish on twitter. 1). We had phenomenal cars at @WGI in 2011-2014. Unfortunately we didn't win any of those 3 in part because Marcos and Kyle were a little better than me and from some circumstances. In the end, we scored 3- 2nd place finishes in a row. I'm still proud of that to this day. 2). In this race particularly, I over drove the car earlier trying to stay ahead of the 18 & 9 cars. The tires fell off and we just couldn't keep up. Since their was no pressure behind us, I fell back 3 seconds from the lead to save the tires and see if they'd fall back to me. 3). With 2 to go I could see the 9&18 falling back to us. We weren't going any faster but they were rapidly slowing down. This was our chance to strike. The 9 car got loose through the esses and we were there; again in the bus stop and we were by. I was stoked for a good finish. 4). I just passed one of the all time great road racers in @MarcosAmbrose , ?don't let him back by,? I remember thinking. As we went through the next 2 corners, the white flag was flying & we had a decent gap in my mirror. 1 lap to go, ?smooth and no mistakes,? I said to myself 5). @DaleJr had been between Kyle and I, so it wasn't till he let us all by that I was able to clear my focus from the 9 to look ahead. Then I realized we had also gained 2+ seconds on the 18 in 2 laps! This didn't seem right, I immediately thought he must have a major problem. 6). As we dove down into turn 1 for the final lap I had a tough decision to make. My tires were wore down, the car in front of me was getting closer and he may also have a problem; how hard do I charge this corner? In a split second the choice was made, I slowed down way early. 7). With today's cars, track and tires; slowing down early would have been a critical error more often than not. Back then, it was key to be able to adapt. The decision was a good one, all the cars around me slid off turn 1 and lost tons of time. I barely made the corner... 8). The success of the maneuver aside, I screamed a self deprecating expletive at myself for not driving harder. Their was no time to think about why that worked, the 18 is now right in front of me and off the track. 3 seconds gained in 2 laps and now we have a shot to win! 9). Kyle was off the track and slow ahead of me and to my left. Had he broke? Just missed the corner? I had no idea but we were gaining on him rapidly. He merged on the track slow and in front of me as we entered turn 2. What happened next added fire to our feud for years to come. 10). I committed to turn 2 in a low line as Kyle merged simultaneously in front of me and off the pace. We made contact and the 18 spun. To this day, many people think I took him out. Intentionally This isn't how I felt or feel but it's part of the story nonetheless. 11). I still feel like it was 2 cars going for the same lane and 1 was off pace. Like merging on a freeway, it's the slower merging cars responsibility to merge safely. In this case, that wasn't me... I drove in hard and he came from off the track, down 3 lanes and into us. 12). Driving away from the accident scene it was immediately obvious that we had sustained major damage to the LF corner of the car. Smoke was pouring into the cockpit and we were in trouble. A quick check of my mirror off the esses confirmed my suspicion. The 9 car was on us. 13). As we drove down the long back stretch flashes of the 2011 race where Marcos passed us there went though my mind. I knew that Marcos would bury it down into the corner and try to get beside me. Unlike turn 1, I had to attack the corner or risk getting run over from behind. 14). Deep into the interloop braking zone I knew something was wrong, we weren't slowing down! ?I've thrown away this race,? I thought as it became clear the dirt in the runoff was my only option to avoid spinning the car out. ?How stupid am I?!?!? flashed through my mind. 15). To my total surprise, Marcos was not by me, or even beside us. It was in this moment the light bulbs in my head began to flicker. ?He's went off too, it's the track! Somethings on it!? Right behind us he lingered as we entered the @WGI carousel for the final time. 16). This particular day was very overcast, additionally the track was very dirty from a full day's racing. This combination made it almost impossible to see oil for both the drivers and spotters. It wasn't until 3 corners were left that I knew the track was fully oiled down. 17). The track had become oiled down from the 47 car who had a part failure causing a progressively worse leakage rate around the track. This meant the final few corners would be the worst. I tip toed into the carousel, ?no need to make the same mistake twice,? I thought. 18). This corner was way bad with oil. With the 9 car sensing blood in the water he charged hard into the corner as I drove soft on entry. Divinely, He would slide out of control but this time not into dirt, but rather clean and grippy asphalt as this corner had a wide runoff. 19). As the 9 car struggled for grip even more mightily than I, all of the sudden the clean asphalt of the 2nd lane momentarily grabbed his tires and away he launched with great speed; right Into my back bumper as I crept through the corner out of control. 20). Any chance of getting away from him over the final 2 corners was now gone. As I struggled from the contact he drove by barely clearing us into turn 10. The next to last corner... ?What a little shove back quickly passed through my mind?? And was soon delivered with a grin 21). The push was another perfect accident. This corner 2 with superb run off had no oil and amazing grip. I was only able to barely get right beside him while slipping in the oil. 1 more corner left to go, I'm in a dead heat with the world's best road course driver for the win. 22). In the final turn, a moment of jubilation struck. I could see that all the corners had oil in the bottom lanes. Although we were in a dead heat, I was on the outside and sure to have that cleaner asphalt that Marcos put to good use in the last 2 corners before... 23). ?We got this!!!? Ran through my veins as we entered the turn. With no oil in my lane, Surely he will slip and I'll drive off. Unfortunately the 47 car had oiled the outer lane in this last corner only and it wasn't meant to be. I slipped and almost crashed, the 9 car won. 24). Takeaways- This race will live in lore forever. Being an integral part of the best voted nascar race of the decade is quite an honor. Another 2nd place. Kyle would miss out on the win and miss the chase (playoffs). Our relationship consequently added another sad chapter. 317. TheDewCrew posted: 06.10.2020 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 8 Years later, and this is still the greatest finish in NASCAR history IMO. Watching two of my least favorite drivers clash in Brad and Kyle, with Kyle getting spun was already great enough, then Ambrose and Keselowski just start running through the grass, trying to psych each other out. Marcos pulling the bump and run on Brad in the carousel, only for Brad to pull it on Marcos in 6. Then Ambrose and Brad going wide, allowing Marcos to pull to Brad's inside coming off the final corner and pull away for his 2nd and final win in the Cup Series. If Brad hadn't gone a bit wide coming off of 6, and stayed straight, it likely would've been a drag race to the line. All with an iconic call by Bestwick cemented it's place as one of the greatest. Every time though I find myself watching Dale Jr in the background, with him watching the chaos unfolding in front of him 318. SweetRich posted: 07.02.2020 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Almost eight years later and the finish of this race stills holds as one of the best finishes in NASCAR history. The true definition of having to earn a race win became true this day with Keselowski and Ambrose. No road course finish before or since has seen a dramatic last lap like this. Yes, Rusty and Ricky in '88 was amazing and Steve Park winning in 2000 were the two defining races at Watkins Glen. But 2012 stands as the best finish cause the two men involved in the finish wanted it to be memorable and boy, did they deliver. I promise you, Keselowski and Ambrose could duke it out again with no oil on the track and decide it straight up between the two. That would be something to watch. Anyway, a great finish and almost eight years later, it remains a true blue all time finish. 319. thecautionlightnews posted: 09.23.2020 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only NASCAR cup series start for Porsche GT legend, Patrick Long ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: