|| *Comments on the 2012 AdvoCare 500:* View the most recent comment <#405> | Post a comment <#post> 1. JG24FanForever posted: 08.31.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 5 Qualifying Spot for Gordon is very good. 2. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.31.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Foxworthy's Grit Chips 200 followed by the NRA American hero 300... 3. joey2448 posted: 08.31.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Same spot Jeff Gordon won from last year! Them Roushers are fast. If Carl Edwards can find the same speed as his teammates, he could come out of this race with a decent finish, and if he runs at Richmond like he did in April, then he could win his way into the Chase next week. He just needs to stay ahead of Kyle and Jeff in points. The track looks like it's going to produce a great race on Sunday! It's aged just perfectly, so the tires give up after a number of laps. Hopefully it'll stay like this a few more years before they are forced to repave it. 4. Spen posted: 08.31.2012 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watching the Truck race now. Three commercial breaks in one caution period? 5. 18fan posted: 08.31.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope the Cup race is as entertaining as this truck race has been. 6. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 08.31.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Story of Kyle Busch's season... 7. DaleSrFanForever posted: 08.31.2012 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I have to work nights all weekend and have to miss all of it. One of the few weekends at a really good racetrack. 8. 10andJoe posted: 08.31.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First race since Daytona without a ROTY contender in the show (such as they are...). 9. JG24FanForever posted: 08.31.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This for the Web Master. Circuit Gilles Villeneuve needs to be counted among the Street Circuit stats. Thank You. 10. RaceFanX posted: 08.31.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hold up... 1. Comments about tracks are best made on track pages especially when it has nothing to do with the race at hand. 2. Circuit Gilles Villenueve is always classified as a road course. Though open as roads to the public when there are no races the track is a purpose-built facility for racing and treated as a road course and not a street course as such by NASCAR, the FIA and formerly CART and IMSA. 11. JG24FanForever posted: 08.31.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 8 with The most Street Circuit wins(Circuit Gilles Villeneuve included) 1. Michael Schumacher 16 2. Ayrton Senna 15 3. Alain Prost 8 4. Fernando Alonso 6 4. Nelson Piquet 6 6. Lewis Hamilton 5 6. Sebastian Vettel 5 6. Jenson Button 5 I'm not exactly sure why Montreal isn't counted as a Street Circuit on this and another Racing Stats site, but it by definition and reality is. 12. JG24FanForever posted: 08.31.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Circuit Gilles Villeneuve isn't always classified as a Road Course. It's always been from the moment it was built a Street Circuit. I can copy and paste from a dozen sources referencing it as a Street Circuit. 13. Daniel posted: 09.01.2012 - 2:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #26 Josh Wise, #33 Stephen Leicht, and #98 Michael McDowell Out using fastest 43: #32 T.J. Bell, #83 Landon Cassill, and #93 Travis Kvapil 14. joey2448 posted: 09.01.2012 - 2:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is Montreal doing on the Atlanta Cup race page??? Danica Patrick actually qualified pretty well considering her struggles in Cup this year. Mid-pack, and it'll be interesting to see if she can improve her position when the race starts. 15. Bronco posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martin Truex Jr was fastest in first practice...yet qualified 28th. 16. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.01.2012 - 8:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex just signed a contract extension. Lets see how his performaance does now. 17. cjs3872 posted: 09.01.2012 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or joey2448, if Danica can even stay mid-pack. If she held her position from where she's scheduled to start and finishes 23rd, that would be a significant improvement, especially on this kind of track. And TeamsPlayerBlue, one problem Kyle Busch has at a track like Atlanta is how hard he drivers the car, or in the case of last night's race, how he drives his truck. He drives so hard that it's virtually impossible to keep his truck under him, because of how the tires wear out. He literally drives his cars (or trucks) into the ground, and on a track surface as abrasive and hard on tires as Atlanta is, that's never going to work. But he may be the man to beat when Atlanta is repaved in about 3 years, because tire wear is no longer going to be a factor. It's for those reasons why Gordon, Johnson, and Stewart were the top three in this race last year, and I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow night's race comes down to those three, or a combination of any of those three, because all three of those drivers know how to save tires, and that's going to be what's needed. After all, Stewart on the pole is a scary thought for his competition, because it looks like he may be getting things back together, and Jeff Gordon starting from where he won this race last year (fifth) may give his competitors cause for concern. After all, he hasn't been able to see the front of the field at the start for most of the year if he had binoculars, but now he starts near the front, and we all know how consistent his cars have been this year. He hasn't been very fast this year, unlike his teammates, but speed really isn't that important at Atlanta because of the track surface. If his car suddenly finds speed to go with the consistency of the car, Gordon could be very dangerous this weekend. 18. Stan posted: 09.01.2012 - 9:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Chevy is going to donate $200 per caution lap this weekend at Atlanta Motor Speedway in the brand's fight against breast cancer as they gear up to support the American Cancer Society's Making Strides Against Breast Cancer initiative. Guess they want all their drivers to wreck the Fords, Dodges, and Toyotas? It's for a good cause you know. 19. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.01.2012 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So Chevy is going to donate $200 per caution lap this weekend at Atlanta Motor Speedway in the brand's fight against breast cancer as they gear up to support the American Cancer Society's Making Strides Against Breast Cancer initiative. Guess they want all their drivers to wreck the Fords, Dodges, and Toyotas? It's for a good cause you know." And give the wreck lovers what they want too. 20. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Chevy is going to donate $200 per caution lap this weekend at Atlanta Motor Speedway" Wow, they couldn't do something positive like donate $200 for every lap led by a Chevy driver instead? With Tony, Jeff, and Jimmie all starting up front, they'd probably donate more from that than caution laps. But whatever. Also, it looks like the Rolex Sports Car Series and the American Le Mans Series will merge as early as the beginning of the 2014 season. 21. Marty posted: 09.01.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So if a fan throws a beer can on the racetrack to get a debris caution, can he say it was in the name of charity? 22. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.01.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol Marty! 23. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, 90% of the invocation for the Nationwide race was quoted word-for-word from "God Bless America." 24. Schroeder51 posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, evidently I'm not going to be watching the Nationwide race tonight because for some reason, DirecTV is telling me that the race is "blacked out in your area". What the hell...? I've seen them do this for certain football games and baseball games on ESPN, but NASCAR...? 25. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR.com's RaceBuddy appears to be showing some camera angles for free. That's strange though, never have seen a NASCAR race blacked out. I know the Bristol race last week was broadcast on alternative networks last weekend due to NFL preseason games though. Did you check the other ESPN networks? 26. David posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad, Schroeder. You can listen to it by radio. PRN does a good job (despite the fact that they're Bruton Smith-owned). 27. Schroeder51 posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now it's actually on. Wonder what the hell that one was all about? Swear I've never seen anything like that before. 28. David posted: 09.01.2012 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Garrow and Doug Rice just had an interesting conversation about clowns. 29. David posted: 09.01.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin Harvick is making a mockery of this event. 30. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.01.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like I'm not missing much by not watching the race tonight. 31. Anonymous posted: 09.01.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsors #32 Green Smoke / 911 Heroes Run / Travis Manion Foundation #39 Army Medicine #42 Target / Tums #83 Buger King Raspberry Smoothies 32. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Brad Keselowski just threw a bottle onto the track during green. He also needed to make a pit stop, and he got his caution, albeit it was for some other debris apparently. The more I see from this guy, the more respect for him I lose. I've never seen a Hendrick driver try to cheat their way to a debris caution. 33. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And as bad as Keselowski's move was, James Buescher just took the Bonehead of the Race award from him. He kept going high in the exit of turn two even though Danica was already practically against the wall and took himself out in the process. Danica saved her car by quickly turning her car left, taking out Mike Bliss in the process. 34. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Danica hasn't learned from Daytona that you can't just dart across the track to avoid a wreck when there's somebody already there. She did it at Daytona and took out David Ragan and turned a one car wreck into a six car pileup, now she did it tonight and took out Mike Bliss who was having a rare top 10 run. Brilliant, simply brilliant. 35. Schroeder51 posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) WTF? Harvick...lost? 36. RoushFan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES! STENHOUSE! I have no idea what just happened but I couldn't be happier with the result. 37. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick apparently has some problems and Stenhouse steals the win after also holding off Keselowski, great finish to a pretty boring race! I don't like Roush but I ALWAYS like when the Cup guys get beat. Kevin is angry at Keselowski about Waterbottlegate. I don't think he knows that the caution came out for some other debris. 38. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski proves in his interview that he's a lying scumbag, flatly denying anything about a water bottle even though it was caught on camera. 39. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If there's a way to lose a race after dominating it, Harvick will find it. As for the water bottle, maybe Nascar should prohibit drivers from having them in the cars to begin with if they're gonna toss 'em out onto the track to cause a caution for their own benefit. 40. JG24FanForever posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bad Brad was lying his ass off! Great run for Stenhouse tonight with an amazing winning pass. 41. Rusty posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For a guy who gets called the "closer", Kevin Harvick sure does a good job not winning when he leads the most laps. 42. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't see it, but really Kes? A water bottle? For an NWide race? C'Mon dude. 43. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't Robby Gordon get penalized for throwing one of a his driver's gloves out a few years back? If a glove can get you trouble with the officials than a water bottle is fair game, way to fail Bad Brad. 44. BON GORDON posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick is pulling a Jeff Gordon on a regular basis now. That sucks that Harvick lost. He has no excuse for losing tonight. Im not a Keselowski fan but he did nothing wrong in my eyes 45. 10andJoe posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution was NOT FOR THE WATER BOTTLE. There were hunks of metal on the track and they showed the truck picking them up. Geez. 46. Schroeder51 posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #43 I think it may have been Aaron Fike who threw the glove out on the track during a Nationwide race...I could be wrong, though. 47. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR says that the caution wasn't for the water bottle and when the cameras showed the safety crew pick up the debris, it looked like they were below the apron while the water bottle was up at the top of the track. I could be wrong on where the water bottle was, but that's what it looked like to me. As for Brad denying any knowledge of throwing a water bottle out of the car, he's either lying or he does this so frequently that he just doesn't remember doing it; like it's a chronic habit for him to do that. I've seen a lot of guys do that while on the front straightaway, but they usually wait for a caution to come out BEFORE they do it. Nonetheless, that's still no excuse for Harvick losing this race. He led about 150 laps and was in a class of his own throughout the race. Stenhouse never had as good a restart as Harvick did, he just simply beat him into turn 1 on the final lap. After this race and Loudon, they should change Harvick's nickname from "The Closer" to "The Stalker" because his best ability is staying close to the leader and making his move late in the race. If he really was a closer, he'd seal the deal whenever he's out front, which includes when he's out front the entire race. Plus, closers are only called to the mound when their team is in front, so the nickname is already inaccurate. 48. murb posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Harvick fan, this is extremely frustrating to see. This (him leading all of these laps and not winning) has happened more than once this year. I'm a Brad fan as well. I don't believe that Brad was trying to purposely cause a caution, but I still don't understand why he threw it out under green like that. Usually, they do that under caution. So he should have just waited for a caution (which would have happened anyway due to the actual debris), or he shouldn't have thrown it at all. Kevin has said some stupid things over the years, but I did like how he called ESPN out in his interview. If the caution wasn't for the water bottle, then why did they keep showing it like that? They confused everybody because of doing that. Not just the viewers, but even the race teams and drivers. Congrats to Stenhouse too. He finally got his first good restart of the night when it counted most. And overall, I thought this was a very entertaining race even though it was dominated by someone. Lots of action. Lastly, Buescher totally caused the deal with Danica. 49. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harvick is pulling a Jeff Gordon on a regular basis now." I can't remember the last time Gordon dominated a race, was leading late, and got beat cleanly when he should have won. Gordon's lost races he should have won via getting wrecked (Martinsville 2012, Texas 2010), getting the bump 'n run (Martinsville 2010), team orders (Richmond 2011), getting caught a lap down by pitting just before a caution came out (Dover 2012), and bad crew chief decisions (Sonoma 2012). Harvick lost this race cleanly, so I wouldn't say he's pulling a Jeff Gordon. If anything, Ricky Stenhouse Jr. pulled a Kevin Harvick tonight with that "closing" pass. 50. Jordan posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The pickup truck DID pick up the water bottle, and also whatever the other debris was, Marty Reid said they made two stops and they showed the debris truck stopped as it was near the wall where the bottle was thrown. Stenhouse got a good restart but not a great one, Harvick actually had some separation built up betwee them but Stenhouse chased him down and got past him without any real problems. I was almost sure Harvick was losing a cylinder or something but apparently Stenhouse just beat him, which is amazing with how fast the #33 was. 51. cjs3872 posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, I think Mr. Penske is going to have a talk with Mr. Keselowski about this one, because Penske does not stand for this kind of chicanery, and never has. It's one thing to fudge a little with the rules, something Penske also frowns upon, but Keselowski's actions could very well have jeopardized the safety of drivers an spectators alike, ironically in the very spot where Carl Edwards turned him over several years ago. And Penske, who has been a part of big-time racing since the mid-1960s, is a man who I don't think will take something like this lightly, especiall considering that he's lost more than one driver in racing crashes (including Peter Revson, who was going to drive for him at Indy in 1974 and the great Mark Donohue, who scored Penkse's first Indy win in 1972 and his first NASCAR win in 1973, in 1975), and once actually withdrew Gary Bettenhausen from an IndyCar race at Michigan (in 1972), just so he could be with his brother Merle, who suffered the crash that cost him his arm in that race. Look for NASCAR to throw the book at Keselowski. If it was me, I'd sit him out of the next two races. Given the crashes that have occurred recently, someone needs to be made an example of in a situation like this, and I'd throw the book at Keselowski. An what cost Kevin Harvick the race was simply a bad restart. He did not clear Ricky Stenhouse entering turn one, which didn't allow him to pull away, though he was clear and appeared to have a problem on the final lap, making way fo Stenhouse's victory. And didn't it seem odd that victory lane did not have the usual joy it usually has? I certainly noticed that. It was a joyless victory lane tonight, something I haven't seen since Jimmie Johnson's win at Martinsville the day of the Hendrick plane crash in 2004. 52. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lastly, Buescher totally caused the deal with Danica." I agree with that statement, but she looked like a geek by turning dead left and sending Mike Bliss into the wall and ruined what could have been a top 10 finish for him, a la her and David Ragan at Daytona earlier this year. 53. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With his 4th win of the season, Stenhouse ties Elliott Sadler with the most wins by Nationwide-regulars this season. The last time two Nationwide regulars won at least four races in a season was 2004 when Martin Truex, Jr. and Kyle Busch had six and five wins, respectively. 54. Marty posted: 09.01.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have seen drivers on numerous occasions throw water bottles out of their cars both during cautions and under green flag conditions. I've always felt uneasy about that as it seems like a cheap way for Nascar to throw a caution whenever they want but I've never seen someone penalized for it (at least not for a water bottle). Nascar needs to set the record straight right now. It's either OKay to throw water bottles out the window or it's not - This is not so much a Brad issue tonight as it is something that's been going on across all of Nascar's top three series and needs to be addressed. As far as I'm concerned, Brad did nothing wrong in this deal as I've never seen Nascar take action on someone after throwing out a water bottle. However, I would like to see Nascar take a stance and make throwing anything out of the car (when the car is in motion) black flag worthy so we can put a lid on this now. 55. cjs3872 posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Marty, I have no problem at all with drivers doing that during caution flag conditions when the field is slowed down, because there's no advantage gained, nor is there a potential safety factor involved. But what happened tonight was a clear case of a driver throwing something from his car to get an advantage, which Brad Keselowski did. Not only that, but throwing an object out of a car at those speeds causes a safety risk to drivers and fans alike. Now there weren't any fans where the bottle was thrown, as it was another terible crowd, but that's not the point here. My point is that it COULD have endangered other drivers and fans. And you're right, things like this have happened before, like Robby Gordon at Phoenix (and he did get the book thrown at him), Jimmy Spencer at Michigan in about 1997 or '98. The problem I have is intent. Keselowski and the others mentioned intended to get an advantage by creating their own caution period, either to try to prevent themselves from losing a lap, or because they were going to have to make a pit stop. Trust me, this isn't the last we've heard about this, especially with Kevin Harvick getting the short end of the stick, because Harvick, perhaps more than any other driver on the circuit, has a way of getting even if he's wronged by another competitor. I don't particularly like Harvick, but he was absouletly right in going after Keselowski here. Low-ball tactics like this have no place in the sport, and NASCAR should penalize him harshly, maybe even throw the book at him. As I said, I would sit him down for at least tomorrow's race, and maybe even the entire weekend at Richmond, to send a message that things like this can not, and will not be toleratedc in the future. 56. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) the only cheating here was nascar continuing to allow the farce of cup drivers in cup equipment in nationwide races. if brad and kevin and kyle want to run a nns race, they can start their own team or drive for someone like curtis key. throwing out a water bottle wasn't cheating, i would call it "innovating." you go brad. put crybaby harvick back in his place. 57. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What Marty said, Nascar needs to address this issue now or drivers will keep doing this until something screwy happens as a result of a glove, water bottle or something else tossed onto the track(not likely but stranger things have happened). Also I hope Rodger has a heart-to-heart with Brad since as cjs stated he has a low tolerance for this crap. 58. cjs3872 posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, Dave #38 Fan, Kyle HAS started his own NNS team, and remember that Kevin Harvick owned his own NNS team for years before selling it to Childress after last season for financial reasons. And the Cup drivers don't get points anyway. They just try for the wins. But I wonder if there's another reason Harvick didn't win tonight's race. I wonder if Harvick, either by instructions from his crew, or by his own decision, decided to back off on the last lap or two, fearing that NASCAR might find something illegal on his car (like traction control, maybe?) because the speed advantage his car had on the field seemed highly suspicious, especially on a worn out track surface. Might that have something to do with the fact that victory lane for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. seemed joyless, because usually when a driver wins a race, there's lots of joy and happiness, but there was none of that tonight. I wonder if even Stenhouse and his team think that Harvick slowed up on the last lap intentionally to avoid having that car looked over thoroughly by NASCAR? Just a thought. After all, as joyful as victory lane was last night (and is likely to be tomorrow night), tonight's victory lane was the dullest and most emotionless I've seen since Jimmie Johnson's win at Martinsville the day of the Hendrick plane crash late in 2004. 59. murb posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, If I remember right, they didn't even have a victory lane when the Hendrick plane crash happened. They just announced the crash and went off the air. 60. cjs3872 posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly murb, and tonight's victory lane was the most emotionless I've seen in a major NASCAR race since then. And they (NBC) did not go immediately off the air, but the information about the place crash was intentionally withheld during the race, but it probably happened before the race even started, so NASCAR knew of it during most of, if not the entire race, if what I remember is true. If I remember right, what they did was go directly to a press conference, where the announcement of what had happened was made. 61. BON GORDON posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Paul he pulled a Jeff Gordon. Pulling a Jeff Gordon is basically losing a race you shouldve won. Whether its Harvick or Gordon's fault it doesnt matter. However pulling a Gordon isnt complete without a debris cation at the end to screw you up. The thing that was picked up on the race track looked like a big piece of rubber. They coulda went a few more laps. There is debris on the track every lap. 62. Paul posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As I said, I would sit him down for at least tomorrow's race, and maybe even the entire weekend at Richmond" Cjs, I wouldn't be against that decision if NASCAR were to park Brad for tomorrow's race or even Richmond next weekend, and here's my reasons why: 1.) With three wins, Brad is already a lock to make the Chase, no matter if he's in the top 10 or makes it as a wildcard, so this wouldn't affect his championship hopes. 2.) I think parking or suspending a driver is the best way to get through to them that what they're doing is not acceptable. Nobody has wrecked a driver under caution since Kyle Busch was parked at Texas last fall (although karma may have rewarded him with three engine failures under caution), nobody has had a media blowup since Kurt Busch was parked at Pocono this June, and nobody (outside of RCR) has punched another driver since Jimmy Spencer was parked for Bristol 2003 after punching Kurt Busch the week before. Based on NASCAR's track record for when they park drivers, I'd say parking Brad would eliminate almost all instances of drivers throwing objects out of their cars under the green flag for the foreseeable future. I highly doubt Brad will get parked tomorrow because the water bottle (allegedly) didn't cause the caution, but I think now is as good a time as any because a.) Brad's already a lock for the Chase and b.) Penske hasn't confirmed who will drive the #22 or their Nationwide car(s) next season and this would allow them to give someone not on their full-time roster a shot at a big ride (hmmm...where's Ryan Blaney?). So really, parking Brad for tomorrow's race I think would do more good than harm. 63. JP88 posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #62...no that would be a horrible idea because then it would basically eliminate every 1-win driver from getting into the chase as they would have to win both Atlanta and Richmond...it would effect too many people and it really wouldn't punish Brad. 64. David posted: 09.01.2012 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you people serious? Park Keslowski for that? I've seen Carl Edwards throw his water bottle out the window multiple time UNDER THE GREEN FLAG just this season. I agree with Marty that Nascar needs to address this on way or the other with some sort of statement but what Keslowski did tonight was no different than what at least half the drivers in this sport have done over the last few years - And I'm speciffically referening to water bottles being thrown out of the car, not other pieces of debris which Nascar has penalized drivers for. Besides, Nascar claims that the caution wasn't even for the water bottle, it was for a differen piece of debris. 65. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I just watched a replay of the post-race from Martinsville 2004. After Jimmie won, he did a burnout on the frontstretch before being called onto pit road as he and his fellow HMS teammates were informed that the Hendrick plane had been lost on the radar. Out of respect for the 10 people on-board and everyone in that organization, NBC's NASCAR coverage went off the air shortly after interviewing the late Jim Hunter, NASCAR's vice president of corporate communications, who explained that the plane went missing from their radar and they would be investigating what happened. From reading the timeline, it was reported that the plane departed from Concord, NC en route to Martinsville, VA at 12:00 ET. Then at 3:00 ET, it was reported missing, so it was probably after the race started when they discovered this. After an extensive search, the wreckage from the plane was found at Bull Mountain, near Stuart, VA at 11:00 PM ET; about 28 miles away from Martinsville. 66. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JP88, I'm not saying they should or will park Brad for tomorrow's race. I'm just saying that if they did, this is as good a time as ever for them to do it in Brad's case because he's already a lock for the Chase. Plus it wouldn't hurt Penske since they could use this as an opportunity to test another driver in their equipment before a deal has been completed for 2013. Also, Brad is 60 points ahead of 11th place Kasey Kahne, so he's in no danger of falling out of the top 10 this week anyways. And even if Brad was parked and Kasey scored the maximum 48 points this weekend, Kasey still has to beat Brad by 13 points the following week at Richmond, which is won of Kasey's worst tracks despite winning there in 2005. So once again, I'm not in any way saying that NASCAR should throw the book at Brad for his actions tonight, nor do I think they will. But if they did, then this weekend is as good a time as any based on the reasons I listed above. 67. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Parking Kez is too extreme and as pointed out wouldn't effect his championship chances, plus other drivers have tossed bottles out of their cars both under green and under the caution and no one's really given a hoot till tonight. "Waterbottlegate" didn't even effect the outcome of the race(the caution was for other debris on the track), Stenhouse just got a great restart and jetted past Harvick for the win(thank goodness). 68. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I don't think Brad should be parked for this either. I do agree with Marty in that they need to clarify the whole water bottle situation. Also, Paul, even if Brad was to be parked, Ryan Blaney probably wouldn't be the guy to drive the 2 car. He is under 21, so they wouldn't let him drive an alcohol sponsored car. It would be interesting though to see who they would pick. But like I said, I don't believe Brad should be parked. 69. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think if Harvick hadn't gotten in Brad's face after the race that nobody would even be talking about this. Honestly, I forgot that it even happened until Harvick and Brad spoke about it in their post-race interviews. Based on that alone, I don't think NASCAR should or will do anything about it because I don't think it affected the outcome of the race. I think Harvick just got flat-out beat by Stenhouse in the end, which I'm cool with because I'm rather enjoying Harvick's winless streak in the Nationwide Series these last two seasons. I'm not a Stenhouse fan, but I just burst out laughing when he drove past Harvick on the last lap. But if what Cjs says is true that--let's not even say water bottle, let's say--an object thrown out of a car going 180 MPH is a potential safety risk, then I think NASCAR should take a look at this. Again, it was a water bottle and it thrown out of the car near the bottom of the frontstretch and there was nobody in the stands for it to blow in the wind and hit in the first place, but since NASCAR's been cracking down on safety lately (as evidenced by Paul Menard's 25-point penalty and his crew chief's six-race suspension for illegally modifying the car's frame), then I think they should at least look into this and think of a way to prevent this from escalating. Maybe Harvick getting in Brad's face after the race is good enough to stop drivers from doing this. If it were my decision, I wouldn't do anything because I don't see this as a safety risk. But maybe NASCAR will look at this and see this as a way for drivers to alter the outcome of the race by throwing an object out of their car to bring out a debris caution, and punish Brad as an example for the other drivers to see. Also murb, you bring up a good point about why Ryan Blaney wouldn't be a good pick as a replacement in the #2 due to Miller Lite's sponsorship. He was just the first name I thought of due to his relationship with that organization. 70. 10andJoe posted: 09.02.2012 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, the water bottle was picked up. BUT THE CAUTION DID. NOT. COME. OUT. FOR. THE. BLASTED. WATERBOTTLE. KESELOWSKI DID NOT TOSS OUT THE WATERBOTTLE TO CAUSE A CAUTION. IT. WAS. COINDICENCE. Alas, the meme already has legs, so I'm probably just spitting in the wind. 71. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.02.2012 - 2:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad didn't cause the caution, ESPN showed the trucks picking up debris (looked like metal) that caused the caution. Once again, NASCAR fans completely flipping out over nothing. drivers have been throwing out water bottles out of the cars for years (see Carl Edwards). And for Harvick, shut up you a$$hat. You lost, get over it. 72. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those who say that having Brad sit out a race (or even two) would not affect his championship chances (which is true), and would be too extreme a punishment, miss the point entirely. The reason I would make Brad sit out at least today's Cup race, if not next week's activities at Richmond, would be to get the point across to all drivers that throwing anything out of a car to try to get an advantage by creating your own caution can not, and will not be tolerated. And at a place like Atlanta, that's also a major safety risk because of the speeds the cars are going. And whether or not the caution was for the water bottle from Keselowski's car is not the issue, as far as I'm concerned, either. The problem I have was that Keselowski intended to cause a caution because he needed a pit stop. And even worse, ESPN had a camera inside his car, and the in-car showed him throwing the bottle from his car, so ESPN (and the entire nation) caught him red-handed. NASCAR needs to put their foot down on things like this, because if they don't, it will happen more often, and this was as blatant as it gets without faltly telling in an interview that they did it. And as for Harvick getting pased by Stenhouse on the final lap, as I mentioned, I'm highly suspicious about that, also. Why would Harvick, who had about a half second a lap advantage on the entire field suddenly slow down on the final lap and allow Stenhouse to pass him unless he and Richard Childress didn't want NASCAR to look over that car thoroughly. Unless he had a sudden engine or tire problem, I think the reason Harvick allowed Stenhouse to pass him was that there was something going on with that car that he and Childress didn't want NASCAR looking at, and the easiest way to do that is to slow up and intentionally not win the race. And that may especially be true, given the problems that RCR has had with the inspectors, especially in the Nationwide Series this year. And frankly, I think Roush and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. knew something was up with Harvick's car, and that Harvick basically let him pass, which is one reason why victory lane was so subdued. They didn't fell like it was a real win, because Harvick basically gave it to them. 73. David posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can we just get over that issue? We know Keselowski threw it out intentionally, and we also know that the caution didn't come out for it, and that this is nothing new. Case closed. Post #64 was not me. 74. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) no way did harvick give up the lead intentionally, no real race car driver would ever do that. and if, hypothetically, their was something illegal about the car and childress and team knew they would never pass inspection, then why the hell would they even enter the race in the first place? as for the victory lane being subdued, i didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. not every driver has to celebrate and jump around like a jack@ss in victory lane, like a certain unnamed someone who once won at nashville and smashed the guitar trophy to pieces (on purpose). 75. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason they would enter the car would be to test the parts for the other two drivers that are both in championship contention. Remember that both the #2 and #3 teams have twice been hit with penalties for rules infractions this year. So Childress may have decided to run the radical stuff in the #33 car to see if that stuff would work, while at the same time, not jeopardizing either of his championship contenders. And victory lane was certainly subdued, considering who it was in victory lane, and it bothers me because I wonder if Roush is trying to neuter Ricky Stenhouse and try to make him as dull and lifeless as Matt Kenseth and Greg Biffle are. If that's what Roush is trying to do, then good luck, because Stenhouse doesn't seem to be that type of guy. I agree that we shouldn't have drivers act like jerks, and I certainly wouldn't want to see that, but victory lane seemed a bit lifeless to me last night. Even Stenhouse's interview seemed a bit subdued. But just watching victory lane, it seemed that nobody there was excited to be there, and that's what troubles me. 76. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Those who say that having Brad sit out a race (or even two) would not affect his championship chances (which is true), and would be too extreme a punishment, miss the point entirely." Cjs, just to clarify, I was somewhat agreeing with your idea to park Brad for one race because it wouldn't affect him in the long run what with the Chase starting in two weeks and him already locked in, and because it would send a message to all drivers that throwing an object out of their car would not be tolerated, whether it was a safety reason or a race credibility reason. I'm not sure if you were referring to me in that post, but that's the point I was trying to make. As for your other accusation about whether or not Harvick gave up the lead to Stenhouse on the last lap, I wonder the same thing myself now that you mention it. My main reason is that Harvick didn't seem too upset that he lost after leading 157 laps and gave it all away on the final lap. Instead, he was more concerned with Brad throwing a water bottle on the track, which doesn't make sense because a.) The caution came out for a piece of sheet metal on the track, so it was going to come out anyway, and b.) Harvick has nobody to blame but himself for losing that race considering how dominant his car was. Had Harvick not said anything or had that piece of metal not been on the track, I doubt anybody would have even noticed. And after the penalties that have been handed down on the #2 and #3 teams this season, including at Kentucky when Austin Dillon dominated that race much the same way that Harvick did last night. What I don't understand is why, if the #33 really did illegally modify the car's performance, didn't Harvick go for the win anyways? He's not racing for points, he's winless in Cup this season, he hasn't won a Nationwide race in two years (which as I mentioned above I find hilarious), so why not? Sure it would have been an illegal win and penalties would surely come down on him, but at least he would have a win going into tonight's Cup race. Now he has nothing other than an illegal car that didn't win, hypothetically speaking. So I'm with Dave #38 Fan on this one because I think if the car was illegally modified that Harvick would have still went for the win anyways, considering his lack of winning this season. But then again, this is the same driver/team combo that won Richmond last year "with a little help from his friends," so who knows what really happened. 77. JG24FanForever posted: 09.02.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most wins in "Grand Races" Grand Races are:any Road-Course and Pocono win+Labor Day and Mother's Day Southern 500+Daytona 500+any win at Martinsville and Bristol. This Formula shows off all around ability combining Crown Jewels with The Biggest Short Track events and also road-racing ability and since the best road-racers often win Pocono and Pocono is refered to as a Roval, I included it. Road-Race/Pocono wins: 1. Jeff Gordon 15 2. Rusty Wallace 10 3. Tony Stewart 9 3. Tim Richmond 9 3. Bobby Allison 9 3. Darrell Waltrip 9 7. Richard Petty 8 8. Ricky Rudd 7 9. Bill Elliott 6 9. Geoff Bodine 6 Both Versions of the Southern 500 and Daytona 500: 1. Jeff Gordon 9 1. Cale Yarborough 9 3. Richard Petty 8 4. Bobby Allison 7 5. Bill Elliott 5 6. David Pearson 4 6. Dale Earnhardt 4 8. Herb Thomas 3 8. Buck Baker 3 8. Fireball Roberts 3 8. Dale Jarrett 3 8. Jimmie Johnson 3 Bristol and Martinsville: 1. Darrell Waltrip 23 2. Richard Petty 18 3. Rusty Wallace 16 4. Cale Yarborough 15 4. Dale Earnhardt 15 6. Jeff Gordon 12 7. Fred Lorenzen 9 Combined Total: 1. Jeff Gordon 36 2. Richard Petty 34 2. Darrell Waltrip 34 4. Cale Yarborough 29 5. Rusty Wallace 26 6. Dale Earnhardt 22 7. Bobby Allison 20 8. David Pearson 15 9. Tony Stewart 13 9. Jimmie Johbnson 13 11.Bill Elliott 12 12.Geoff Bodine 11 13.Fred Lorenzen 10 13.Tim Richmond 10 13.Ricky Rudd 10 13.Mark Martin 10 13.Denny Hamlin 10 This Formula weakens David Pearsons #'s, and greatly boost Rusty Wallace and especially Darrell Waltrip who was true all-around Master despite having a giant mouth and ego to match. Geoff Bodine as disliked as he is was obviously an excellant wheel-man with 4 Martinsville wins a 3 Road-Race wins too. Jeff Gordon is the Master. 78. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, JG24FanForever, you have to remember that, among other things, Pearson did not run the full schedule during his most dominant years, which were with the Wood Brothers, so we don't really know how he would have done in the races they didn't run. For instance, back then, Martinsville was the only short track the Wood Brothers ran at because of how close it is to Stuart, VA. As a result, they didn't win at Bristol until current Nationwide Series point leader Elliott Sadler did so in 2001. Also, after Pearson scored his first three wins in 1961, all on speedways, that he didn't win on a speedway for seven years, simply because his cars weren't capable. And also remember that, unlike today, they only ran on one road course back in Pearson's heyday, and that was Riverside, CA, which they ran twice a year, and even three times in 1981, the only time in the modern era that a track hosted three races in one season. The two road courses they run at today are as different as night and day, which is why some drivers excel on one and struggle at the other. But that's also like saying that the Daytona 500 wins through 1987 and since 1988 are different, because in a way, they are, and Bodine's win in 1986, as well as Eliot's two 500 wins in 1985 and '87 came in the pre-restrictor plate era, with 200+ MPH speeds. Only Bobby Allison won a Daytona 500 in both eras of that particular race. And speaking of Bodine, he also won multiple races at Pocono, and until Jeff Gordon, Bodine held the all-time lap leader record at Pocono, and he is one of just three drivers (Rusty Wallace and Ricky Rudd are the other two) to have won at all three road courses NASCAR's top series has raced at in the modern era. But the one problem with your formula is that if one driver gets fat at one or two tracks, that it could alter what his overall ranmking in your system would be. Darrell Waltrip and Rusty Wallace are prime examples of this. Waltrip won 23 times at Bristol and Martinsville put together and Walace won 15 times at those two tracks (nine at Bristol). That's one reason I have Jeff Gordon and Bobby Allison as the second and third greatest drivers of all-time, because they could win anywhere, as they were "jacks of all tracks and masters of none". 79. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, as if Tony Stewart didn't have enough trouble as far as sponsorship goes on Ryan Newman's car for next year, now he's lost one of the sponsors on his car, as it was announced the Office Depot will not return in 2013. Now Stewart's got to find sponsorship for both of his main cars for next year. 80. JG24FanForever posted: 09.02.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But the one problem with your formula is that if one driver gets fat at one or two tracks, that it could alter what his overall ranmking in your system would be. " I think Waltrip and Petty having fat totals because of 12 and 15 wins at Bristol and Martinsville is a good thing though. I like Gordons total because it's so even with 9 Crown wins,12 Bristol/Martinsville and 15 Road-Course/Pocono. Going by the Road-Course/Pocono combination, Tim Richmond had 6 straight wins in 1986-87. 81. David #2 posted: 09.02.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @Post #73 HAHA - Yeah sorry David, post #64 was me. If I post in the future I'll post as David #2 to avoid confusion. 82. Stan posted: 09.02.2012 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I might include Atlanta on your list of tracks there as well. IN the last 15 years, here's the list of drivers who have won there. Dale Earnhardt Dale Jarrett Bobby Labonte Jerry Nadeau Kevin Harvick Tony Stewart Kurt Busch Jeff Gordon Dale Earnhardt Jr. Jimmie Johnson Carl Edwards Kasey Kahne Kyle Busch Other than Nadeau (who's career was cut short by injury), that's a pretty damn impressive list of drivers. Losers simply don't win at Atlanta. Both the old and new configuration are a perfect blend of pure speed / setup and driver talent / ability to handle tire wear. 83. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact Stan, there are only four drivers to my knowledge that have gotten their first win at Atlanta, and for three of them, it was their only win. Those four drivers were Bob Burdick (1961), Jim Hurtubise (1966), Jerry Nadeau (2000), and Carl Edwards (2005). Of those four, only Edwards ever won again, although Nadeau should have won there again in 2001. 84. JG24FanForever posted: 09.02.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 you forgot the epic finish to the 1st Atlanta event of 2001. Harvick over Gordon. 85. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least Tony doesn't have to worry about Danica losing sponsorship, lol 86. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With Stewart losing his main primary sponsor and Ryan Newman having trouble securing sponsorship, it looks like moving Danica up to Cup full-time is great for SHR business-wise because now at least one car will be full-funded next season. It looks like Mobil 1 will continue sponsoring the #14 for 16 races next season, which leaves the bulk of the schedule wide open for Stewart. It might be in Newman's best interest to start looking for a new ride in 2013, even if it's not a very good one, such as Phoenix Racing or to JTG Daugherty's rumored 2nd car. If he's lucky, he'll bring along sponsorship from SHR as to be more appealing to car owners. Any sponsors that he doesn't bring along will hopefully go towards the #14 car. An SHR spokesperson said that Office Depot is still interested in being apart of SHR, but in a much smaller capacity. Another interesting thing about this is that Office Depot is the "Official Office Products Partner" of NASCAR, and are currently in negotiations with NASCAR regarding their future relationship. I think it would look really bad for NASCAR if one of their top teams loses their sponsorship, but that sponsor remains partners with NASCAR. It'd look as if NASCAR stole that team's sponsorship and make it seem like they're only looking after themselves, not the teams that operate in the sport. I don't know if or how Office Depot benefits by staying aligned with NASCAR and not with any of the teams, but it comes off somewhat shady to me. 87. cjs3872 posted: 09.02.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes I did, JG24FanForever. Thanks for correcting my mistake. 88. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bob Dillner just reported that Elliott Sadler will not return to RCR next season and will instead be joining JGR to drive full-time in the Nationwide Series. This is odd because not only is Sadler the points leader, but he was originally going to drive the #55 car in Cup this season when Mark and Michael weren't in the car. Richard Childress stone-walled that plan back in March because of the difference in manufacturers, but five months later it's been announced that Sadler will leave RCR and join a Toyota team anyways. It's interesting to think where Sadler would be right now had he been allowed to run part-time for MWR. Instead, Brian Vickers got that ride and now he's been rumored to a full-time Cup ride next season. 89. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm happy for Elliott. As I said over on the NNS page, I'm certainly getting tired of RCR for multiple reasons (their ignorance of anyone not named Dillon, the constant shady behavior, etc.). I'm sure he is getting just as sick of it. I just hope that RCR has at least a little bit of decency to not screw him out of this championship this year now that he's leaving. If he does end up at JGR, it would be a great situation for him to keep doing what he's doing now in NNS, only with a better team. I don't expect Brian Scott to be back (I've heard that he is gonna go do a buy-a-ride over at Phoenix Racing), so I expect Elliott to wind up in the 11 car. 90. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 24 car looks very fast. So does the 18. 91. Baker posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or do 80% of green flag lead changes happen during commercials? 92. joey2448 posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yea Baker, broadcasters really do pick terrible times to go to commercial break. I don't know how many times I've been watching a race and something interesting happens and they go to commercial, and I'm left yelling at the TV saying "Go back! I wanna see that!" 93. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Doesn't look like anyone has anything for Kyle Busch tonight. 94. David posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @93 Yes, but many a dominant run has not won. 95. joey2448 posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sam Hornish has been really impressive to me so far tonight. Harvick is surprisingly having a good run, and the Gibbs cars seem to have the most speed on the long run. End of summary, haha. 96. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gibbs cars are on it tonight, gonna be a long race for Smoke though. 97. 18fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hamlin has the most consistent car from the beginning of the run to the end of the run. 98. David posted: 09.02.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yawn. Just for fun, here is the top 10 in PEER (by the brilliant David Smith) going into tonight's race. 1. Brian Vickers - 4.167 - Historic Performance 2. Jimmie Johnson - 3.833 - Serious Title Contender 3. Greg Biffle - 3.146 - Serious Title Contender 4. Brad Keselowski - 3.125 - Serious Title Contender 5. Dale Earnhardt Jr. - 3.083 - Serious Title Contender 6. Matt Kenseth - 2.625 - Fringe Title Contender 7. Denny Hamlin - 2.563 - Fringe Title Contender 8. Kyle Busch - 2.271 - Fringe Title Contender 9. Kasey Kahne - 2.188 - Fringe Title Contender 10. Tony Stewart - 2.167 - Fringe Title Contender 99. DaleJrFan posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I knew this would happen. Jr is not running good and his teammates Johnson and Gordon are in the top 5. This is not Jr's fault entirely. As I have said before I think Hendrick is up to giving Jr cars that do not have the speed as his teammates. He might finish in the top 20 tonight but (as much as i hate to say it) I don't see Jr winning for the forseeable future. That is the rest of this year and next but it would not be Jr's fault. Hendrick will give Johnson, Gordon, and Kahne the cars that can copmete for wins but not Dale Jr. I know you will say I am wrong and some might call me plain nuts, so be it. I just don't want Jr to go another 4 years without a win which, if Hendrick gets his way Jr will never win again. 100. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd hate to be a potential jinx, but they haven't talked about you know who at all tonight. She's running about 30th two or three laps down. Tony and Ryan haven't been much better. I think it's safe to say SHR might be in trouble next year. 101. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh boy, we've got another conspiracist... Caution is out for debris. 102. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DsleJrFan has been around with his conspiracies for a while; where have you been? 103. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *DaleJrFan...stupid keyboard! 104. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior fanboys never cease to amuse me 105. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer's in the garage. Really tough break. He was running fast. "DsleJrFan has been around with his conspiracies for a while; where have you been?" lol, I know. I've seen him here before. I've just never acknowledged him until just then. 106. 18fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A lot of big names struggling in this race. 107. DaleJrFan posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right I'll admit blaming Hendrick for Jr not running good is only my opinion. I have the right to say Hendrick is doing it just as all of you have the right to say he isn't but I'm just wondering what is making Jr run a lap down. Don't say it is because he is a bad driver, I'm just wondering if any of you think he is just having a bad night or what? 108. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Don't say it is because he is a bad driver, I'm just wondering if any of you think he is just having a bad night or what?" All of the Hendrick cars seem rather off tonight. Jimmie has been battling handling, Kasey has had problems, and Jeff has been up and down. So he isn't the only Hendrick guy not running well. I think Jr is very good driver. This year he is having one of, if not, the best year he has ever had. 109. 18fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some of this pit strategy has just been terrible. I don't understand why you would run 5-10 laps longer than cars you are racing with and give up so much time. 110. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon looked good until the sun went down, then fell off while Harvick and the Gibbs cars(namely Shrub and Hamlin, Logano's been under the weather the whole weekend)took over. He and JJ have been constantly in the top ten though. 111. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) maybe kurt busch had a point last year about how bad the #22's pit crew was, ornish runs around 5th-7th, goes into pit, and comes out around 12-15th. 112. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Kurt, is he even in the race tonight? I swear, they haven't talked about anyone that isn't running in the top 10. They haven't mentioned/updated Kurt. They've barely talked about Mark Martin. Like I said earlier, even Danica has been snubbed coverage tonight. 113. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That caution will go down as either "debris" or "#42 - Accident", but I think "boredom" is the real reason. 114. Baker posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bogus. NASCAR was on the edge of their seat just waiting to jump on the chance to throw a caution. NASCAR is becoming more of a joke every race. 115. Mr X posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My god Jeff Gordon has had some shitty pit stops tonight, every time they lose positions, the fastest I've seen is 13.3. 116. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, a total spice up caution. Montoya didn't even slow down after his wall shot. 117. Mr X posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish this race was in the afternoon as opposed to at night. History teaches us that the hot slick track of an afternoon race causes the groove to widen out a lot further which imo is the problem here, this race has been somewhat of a dissappointment. 118. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards has a dying battery. His chances for the Chase? I think it's pretty safe to say they are probably over. 119. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, although the racing is good, I kinda think the cautions are crap. Still, I'm liking the racing a bunch, this track really shows a lot about how a real driver can drive. Hope everyone else is enjoying this! 120. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It just hasn't been Cousin Carl's year. 121. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Looking at file cards* I'm going to guess that our Wild Card Recipient will be Newman or Kyle. Whadda You guys think? 122. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There you have it, Carl's eliminated. "I'm going to guess that our Wild Card Recipient will be Newman or Kyle. Whadda You guys think?" Kyle. Unless Gordon wins at Richmond and Kyle has a bad race. But it's gonna be Kyle more than likely. 123. David posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How come whenever Truex is close to a win, he has to battle Denny Hamlin for it? 124. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm going to guess that our Wild Card Recipient will be Newman or Kyle. Whadda You guys think?" I can't see Newman beating either Gordon or Kyle in the race for the 2nd wildcard. He hasn't led a lap all season other than at Martinsville when he picked up a fluke win. Kyle and Gordon have had a lot of bad luck, but at least they're weekly contenders for top 10 finishes. 125. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This will be Carl Edwards' first DNF since October 2009. 126. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, it's definitely Kyle's now. 127. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just like that, Ryan Newman's Chase hopes have come to an end. 128. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ah man, hornish was having a great night. thanks a lot, newman. 129. joey2448 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two weeks in a row Newman has wrecked. Jimmie will still do well in the Chase. Poor Hornish had such a good run going. That wreck looks similar to the Danica/Buescher wreck in the Nationwide race last night. 130. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb #112, you're not kidding. I just found out that Trevor Bayne is in this race. 131. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That wreck looks similar to the Danica/Buescher wreck in the Nationwide race last night." It's almost as if Jimmie had no idea Hornish was there, as he kept coming up and eventually got his right rear hooked. Newman was unfortunately caught between a rock and a hard place. 132. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman's only hope now is if he somehow wins at Richmond next week. Which I can't really see happening... 133. Spen posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bestwick is either misremembering, or he meant to say that it was Carl first *engine failure* since '09. Carl DNF'd at Talladega earlier this year. 134. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, thanks for the indirect correction. I think that's what Bestwick meant. Or perhaps ESPN only keeps track of what happens on their network. All three RCR cars are in the top 10. I think this is the first time at a non-restrictor plate track that that's happened. 135. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's no way Newman wins Richmond. He hasn't contended for a win all year. He just lucked into one at Martinsville when the leaders wrecked. 136. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And that's exactly why I said "somehow". It would take an absolute miracle for him to win Richmond. He shouldn't even be in the running for the wild card in the first place. 137. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy cow, Gordon's car is flying on new tires! 138. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, had the leaders not wrecked at Martinsville, not only would Newman not be in the Chase discussion, but Gordon would be in as the 2nd wildcard with two wins. 139. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm seriously gonna laugh my ass off if Jeff wins this after all of the Wild Card talk. 140. joey2448 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just waiting for Rusty to say, "That 24 hot rod is flat flyin' right now!" But seriously, Jeff's surge on that restart caught me completely off guard. He is making up time in a hurry! GO 24!!! 141. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn it all, I thought I hit the biggest stroke of luck ever when I got outposted to a place with a tv for this night's race, but everybody on this side of town needs an ambulance. Gonna miss the whole damn thing. 142. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Hornish is still running 12th after being in that wreck. 143. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is Truex finally gonna win again or is Rainbow Nation gonna celebrate? Seriously, I am not in front of a TV, only have mobile updates, and don't know. 144. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is going to get interesting... 145. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution out for McMurray. Gonna have a G-W-C finish, leaders might pit. 146. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) McMurray hard in the wall. Now what's gonna happen? 147. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now things are gonna get interesting. 148. Paul posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hamlin beats Truex and Gordon off pit road. 149. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like Hamlin is going to steal the win. 150. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised no one further back gambled. There will only be a couple laps left. So if you're somebody in the back half of the top ten (like Regan Smith or Jeff Burton), why not make a gamble? 151. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 11 pit crew have really been on their game tonight, they likely just won Hamlin the race. 152. Jordan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) GORDON CHOKES! 153. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I guess Kyle Busch will be making the Chase after all unless he has troubles at Richmond, which, for him, seem quite unlikely. 154. David posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, that just had me up on my feet. And I was listening to it on the radio! 155. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...am I the only one who thinks Hamlin might just be this year's champion? 156. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shame for Truex. I was hoping he would get a good restart there, but he didn't. Congrats to Denny though. They are for sure a championship contender. How did Gordon choke? He had a great shot at him down the backstretch but just overdrove turn 3. 157. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon didn't choke, Hamlin just had the better car. Bummer for Truex, everytime he comes close to a win fate comes up with a way to screw him out of it. 158. Spen posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF: Better get your Bodine essay prepared. 159. Jordan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon had a great run on the backstretch, he was definitely faster and should have taken him, and a driver of his stature should be able to make it stick in the final turns in that scenario. With his momentum, he wouldn't have even had to get through perfectly, he would have gained more momentum by coming out of 4 on the high line, that's won many drivers races at Atlanta. 160. Bronco posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heartbreak for Truex, and Hamlin is yet again the one that wins. 161. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon needs to finish at least 12 spots better than Kyle Busch at Richmond if he wants to make the Chase. It's not impossible...anything could happen. That said, Kyle is still in extremely good shape. That said, if Kyle makes the Chase, I don't see him being a factor for the championship. Then again, I'd have to say the same for Gordon if he ends up making the Chase. 162. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Er, at least 13 spots, actually, since he's 12 points behind. Somehow I see Kyle sweeping Richmond, though. But again, anything can happen. Still, DSFF, it might not be a bad idea to go ahead and write the Bodine speech so you can be prepared... 163. murb posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, The Bodine Speech. I think what we can agree on is that it's either Kyle or Jeff. Carl's done, and there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Newman will win next weekend. 164. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprised no one's brought up the irony of the car Truex used to drive bringing out the caution that cost him the race. Can't wait for that Bodine speech lol 165. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing I hope doesn't happen is something screwed up like Joey Logano winning next week. If Logano won, he would sneak into the Chase while sitting a whopping 18th in points. I would NOT be happy if something messed up like that happened. 166. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone remember about how Jimmie Johnson is mistake prone? Well it just happen again tonight. I think we need to view the 11 crew as a *legit* championship contender. Oh the pit crew is lights out. "I wish this race was in the afternoon as opposed to at night. History teaches us that the hot slick track of an afternoon race causes the groove to widen out a lot further which imo is the problem here, this race has been somewhat of a dissappointment." You wish for alot of things but this race WAS NOT a dissapointment. It was great to watch. I find nothing wrong with night racing, especially at Atlanta. 167. Schroeder51 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes, I do know that is extremely unlikely that it will happen, but the fact that that possibility even exists, no matter how remote, bothers me a little bit, because Joey's performance this season is FAR from being Chase material. 168. Jordan posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought the race was quite boring before the last two cautions. Truex would have won running away if that last caution did not come out. There may have been a lot of passing for 10 laps or so after restarts but after that the racing became extremely spread out and this is what allowed the leader to lap all but less than 15 drivers basically halfway into the race. 169. joey2448 posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SOOOOO CLOSE!!! That was certainly shaping up to be an Atlanta finish. Reminded me of Carl's first win in 2005, the way the car on the outside was gonna beat the car on the inside. But I think what happened with Jeff Gordon was that he drove into turn 3 on the outside of Hamlin and was trying to turn down the track and get a good run off turn 4 and beat Hamlin to the line, but he couldn't turn down because Hamlin was there! ..and that messed up Jeff's line and he had to back off and save the car. Both Truex and Gordon needed that win, Gordon obviously more so. Well, it's on to Richmond next week! It's gonna be a hell of a battle between Gordon and Busch for that last wild card spot, but I still think Kyle will get it, even though I'll be pulling like hell for Jeff Gordon! 170. BON GORDON posted: 09.02.2012 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a finish. Gordon did mess up but he went for it at least. I agree with Gordon that he shoulda ran into the back of Hamlin to win. No one knows how to do the bump and run more than Jeff Gordon. Good finish and points day. Look all I want at this point is for Gordon to win races and finish the season off strong. I don't think he can make the chase but the 24 team can work on their car for next season. 171. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Hamlin has learned his lesson from Phoenix-Homestead 2010, his team is to be considered a legit championship threat. There is no denying, that pit crew won the race. Jimmie Johnson is accident prone....... when the pressure is not so high. I think nearly every poster on RR will collectively s*** a brick if we see a reply of Martinsville with Logano or Newman winning Richmond. Murphy's law will eventually catch up with Kyle Busch at Richmond. The two Richmond races Kyle failed to finish at least 6th (15th and 20th places respectively) were in September 2007 and 2008. 172. David posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the Bodine speech will be almost as good, considering that the average Gordon Chase is as follows: fail, mid-pack finish, fail, near-miss, win, wreck, engine blowup, mediocre car, near-miss, and dominating race only to fall short in the last few frustrating laps. Not necessarily in that order. 173. 10andJoe posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #17 sponsor: Ford EcoBoost (no space) #21 sponsor: Camping World/Good Sam Club #32 sponsor: Green Smoke (two words) #38 sponsor: House-Autry Mills 174. 10andJoe posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I have the right to say Hendrick is doing it just as all of you have the right to say he isn't You have the right to say something that is blatantly untrue (and could, in other venues, get you in trouble for slander) then? 175. Ed posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I swear, if Gordon doesn't make the Chase, he'll show over these last 10 why he belonged. I'm talking a full race or more separation on 14th at season's end with at least 2 wins in the last 10. Hendrick will give him cars to go steal some wins away from the Roush and Gibbs boys. 176. Mr X posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly BON GORDON, though I haven't said it, for me if Jeff Gordon misses the chase this year we know why, bad luck, yes they haven't been as fast this year as last year but for the most part without their bad luck the 24 team is still easily chase material. If Jeff misses it, it will likey bode well for him next year as he will have a 10 race test session that they can go for broke in without having to worry about points. This race was fun to watch, but not really by Atlanta standards, the 2011, 2010, and 2009 races were far better. The groove was really quite narrow compared to last year, and this race just wasn't as competitive as some other Atlanta races recently, I place blame on the cars being to easy to drive, as I have stated before (and if you watched Wind Tunnel on July 29 2012, both David Hobbs and Tommy Kendall agree with me) and the groove being to narrow due to the cool conditions that generally go with a night race, plus if this race were on a Sunday afternoon that would make it one step closer to becoming a true replacement for the race that originally filled this slot, the Southern 500. Labour Day weekend should hold a 500 mile day race at a tire grinder track, nearly all the pieces are there. Though Atlanta is still my favourite race on the schedule. 177. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, unless something happens to Kyle Busch that causes him to finish off the lead lap at Richmond, we now know who the 12 Chase drivers will be, because Kyle is 12 points ahead of Jeff Gordon. We pretty much all know that Gordon won't contend for the win at Richmond, so unless Kyle Busch has something happen to him that causes him to finish off the lead lap, that he's in the Chase. And you know that Denny Hamlin wanted to win that race as much for Kyle Busch as for himself, because Gordon's last ditch effort was, in fact, his last chance at making the Chase. But we know now who the 12 Chasers will be, unless Kyle has a problem. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to see Kyle take an ultra-conservative approach to the race at Richmond, since if Gordon finishes second and leads the most laps (and trust me, he won't lead the most laps, because I doubt he'll even see the lead), all Kyle will have to do is finish 12th to lock up a spot in the Chase. What I look for is for Denny Hamlin to go all out and try to dominate Richmond to keep any who might contend from winning. Kyle Busch's best friend at Richmond this Saturday night is Denny Hamlin. I'll post my final update on how the Chase standings would look under my system tomorrow. But tonight's race sucked all the life out of Richmond, as far as who will make the Chase is concerned, because the 12 Chasers are now known. The only drama left at Richmond is who will win the race, and how it will affect the official seeding for the Chase. 178. ch posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor changes (in addition to the above): 51 - Phoenix Racing 83 - Burger King Real Fruit Smoothies 91 - Humphrey Smith Racing 93 - Dr Pepper 179. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I freaking missed it. All of it. Son of a bitch. As for the Bodine speech, it ain't over til its over. But if Jeff misses it, it will be a complete essay praising his on track accomplishments and *gulp* innovations off it. Yeesh. C'Mon Jeff! 180. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dang, if they could have had just one more lap of caution there at the end it would have finished with 328 laps just like the Atlanta races were forever. 181. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Ed, when Gordon misses the Chase (and note I said when), he'll be lucky to see the top ten in any race, except Martinsville and Talladega, because Hendrick seems to have already gone into "Chase mode", which is to pool everything to the #48 team. Just look at how badly Kasey Kahne ran tonight and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. has run in the last two races. Gordon's only shots at a decent finish in the final ten races figure to be at Martinsville and Talladega. And as for Gordon possibly prospering because of not having anything to lose, have you forgotten who his crew chief is? His crew chief (Alan Gustafson) is quite possibly the most conservative in the entire garage area when it comes to in-race decisions, and arguably the worst when it comes to strategy decisions. Jeff Gordon has no chance in Hades to succeed in any of the races except Martinsville and Talladega, where he can out drive most of his crew chief's mistakes and conservatism. 182. Brad24 posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It ain't over till it's over. Gordon can still make the Chase. But he's gonna have to win and/or hope KyBu has a bad night at Richmond. Which is probably asking a lot. If he does miss it, you can't help but think about what happened at Martinsville. He had that race in the bag until damn Reutimann stopped on the track to set up a GWC. Of course we all know what happened afterwards. As a big Gordon fan, I hope he makes it. But if not, I won't be upset about it. He's had an awesome career. 86 wins and 4 titles (6 if there was no Chase) is an amazing feat. Missing the Chase this year won't define his career. He still has that fuel to win. He'll be back. Though it's still great to see a VA driver win it, again. Next to Gordon, nobody has been snakebit more than Truex this year. He's been very consistent all year and has come close to winning a few times this year, only to have circumstances take it away. On a brighter note, football season is here. Go Wahoos (Virginia) and Redskins! 183. BON GORDON posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS I agree a little bit with what you are saying but i think Gordon will actually run a little better than he did in last years chase. Only because he isn't in it. I think Jr. and Kahne will both struggle a bit. Johnson does some how run better than his Hendrick teammates in the chase....hmmmmm. However I don't see Jimmie winning title # 6. It will be Hamlin, Biffle, or Keselowski. Gordon will be good at Martinsville and Talladega but here's how I think Gordon will fare in the final 10 races: Loudon: 3rd (always is good at New Hampshire) Dover: 11th (He ran stronger earlier in the year but won't be as good) Talladega: 32nd (run good and get into a wreck like always) Charlotte: 7th (wont be as fast as the front runners) Kansas: 8th (always good at Kansas but struggle for track position) Martinsville: 1st (It will be his second and final win of the 2012 season, strong performance) Texas: 13th (Never as strong in the fall race as he is in the spring) Phoenix: 10th (Doesn't like the new Phoenix but manages a Top Ten) Homestead: 6th (Not a Top five but ends the season with a solid finish, barely beating Carl Edwards in points) Gordon's 2012 season: Points Rank: 13th Wins: 2 Top 5s: 8 Top 10s: 17 Poles: 1 HE'LL BE BACK NEXT YEAR 184. BON GORDON posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Richmond Gordon will finish 11th-15th while Busch finishes second behind Denny Hamlin. 185. 18fan posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad24, Similarly, if Kyle misses the Chase you can look back to the oil at Watkins Glen when he had that race won. 186. murb posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The more I think about it, my gut just tells me that Keselowski will be the champion this year. That team just seems like it has been the best overall this year, so I'm fully expecting them to continue it into the Chase. I don't see Biffle being a threat at all, unless he wins a couple Chase races, which I don't necessarily see happening. As for Hamlin, I think he will definitely challenge for it. I think he'll have a Chase a lot like Matt Kenseth had last year, where he contends right up until a few races left. I just expect them to kind of fall off a little bit. Also, I'm still sticking with Kahne as my darkhorse. 187. joey2448 posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) From what I've seen, it looks like Jimmie Johnson is gearing up for an awesome Chase run, and he looks like the favorite to win #6 this year. But in the back of my mind, I gotta believe that the law of averages will catch up to Jimmie. He's won five titles already, and it feels like that string of five consecutive will be all that he will achieve. So with that in mind, it seems like the title will come down to Hamlin, Keselowski, Kenseth, Kahne and Johnson (although Jimmie won't win, and Kenseth won't win just because of his lame-duck status). 188. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The title is all JJ's. His screwup tonight will only focus him. 189. JG24FanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Johnson is about to stomp the field into mental jello. Jimmie Johnson has the most consistent and dominant car if not for this and that going wrong. 190. JG24FanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon becomes the first driver in the Modern era to have: 20 consecutive seasons with at least 2 Top 2 finishes and at least 6 Top 5 finishes. 191. Mike posted: 09.03.2012 - 4:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course, there is still a possibility that Marcos Ambrose could end up in the Chase ... This is the situation as it stands: Newman and Logano have to win to make the Chase, they are too far behind Kyle to catch him in points. Ambrose is 40 points behind Kyle. He can either win, or gain at least 40 points (basically, he leads the most laps and gets a top 5 while Kyle finishes out of the top 40) 192. Spen posted: 09.03.2012 - 4:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Off-topic, but I'm kind of hoping that Junior scores the most points over the whole season, but loses the chase. If that happens, the level of fan backlash just might be enough to convince Brian to do away with his precious little chase once and for all. 193. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember in 2009 Jimmie botched it all in this race, and he wound nearly clinching the title a week early. 194. JG24FanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 5 longest 6+ Top 5 season streaks in the Modern era: 1. Jeff Gordon 20--1993-2012 2. Dale Earnhardt 19--1979-1997 3. Darrell Waltrip 16--1974-1989 4. Tony Stewart 14--1999-2012 5. Richard Petty 12--1972-1983 5. Mark Martin 12--1989--2000 Yet another oddball achievement by The Great Wonder Boy. 195. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I won't have to prepare the Bodine Speech. I wiill just write from the heart. The fact is he is underappreciated for his on track ability because his prime came during NASCAR's most loaded stretch (made worse by only having 29 races per year) and the fact he is mostly known as Earnhardt's foil. I will just type out all the good stuff he accomplished without the backhanded compliments and any use of the term "smart mouth Yankee bastard" and.... jeez, I really do need to prepare for this. Unless of course Jeff finds a way to step up to the plate and get the job done when he absolutely has to. That is one thing that holds him back historcally and the biggest reason why I won't even accept any Earnhardt vs Gordon debates. Despite Jeff's nearly unparalleled ability to step it up in big races, he has had a curious (relative) inability to step it up when he needs a huge points day to either throw himself squarely in the title fight or stomp on the throats of the competition (as always, '98 is the huge exception). Even in 3 of his 4 championship seasons, with the competition all but finished, he somehow found a way to have to sweat it out. Well, in '01 he tried really hard to let the Yates cars back in it, but they gagged even worse than Jeff down the stretch. So here you go Jeff. A rare chance to actually add to yoour legacy. Can you put a season of miserable luck behind you and execute a rare non crown jewel clutch win? Or will you forever be to Earnhardt what Peyton Manning is to Joe Montana? 196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And btw, as for the QB comparison, Jimmie Johnson is totally Tom Brady. Mostly much better head to head against Manning, more championships, undeniably talented but also the product of a system, and of course the cheating controversies. 197. Mannoroth posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martin Truex Jr., the biggest suprise of this season. He´ll definitely make it into Chase for the Cup and I hope he´ll win at least one race this year. Good luck, Martin. :) 198. NazRacePhan posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The top nine in points are all locked in the Chase for the Sprint Cup. 10th in points, #14-Stewart, clinched at least a wild card spot. So at Richmond nest weekend, two spots are up for grabs, either two wildcard spots or 10th and one wildcard spot. 199. The Emperor posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard has scored 3 straight top 10s for his empire. 200. Captain Morgan posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hamlin has to be considered a strong title contender, don't forget he has last year's champion crew chief, Darian Grubb, on top of his pit box this year instead of Mike Ford. 201. Brad24 posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan: Gordon could miss the Chase for the same reason. He got in the oil on the last lap too. 202. Anonymous posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) you could feel truex's heartbreak right through the tv he looked worse tonight than he did at Kansas in April 203. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, the ending of this race was somewhat like what happened at Atlanta in the 1987 spring race, when Benny Parsons had that race won, but much as what happened to D.K. Ulrich that brought out the caution that cost Parsons that race 25 years ago, a tire failure by Jamie McMurray brought out the caution that cost Truex this race. But you knew that, even if he had started on the lead on that GWC restart, that Truex would find a way to lose this race. Some drivers just find a way to lose, and Truex is one of those drivers. And as for those saying Gordon didn't have what it took to run around Denny Hamlin on the outside on the final lap, like Jimmie Johnson has done on more than one occasion, but he does not have that move in him, and never has had that move in him. After the race, Gordon realizied that and said he should have bumped Denny, which would probably have handed the race to Brad Keselowski (or possibly even Truex), because that would have broken the momentum of both drivers, which would have allowed Keselowski to pass both of them. Gordon did all he could on that final lap, but he tried a move he simply can not make. What I think he tried was to try to break Hamlin's momentum, because that was the only way he beats him to the line, and he simply overdrove the car in turn three. And DSFF, the difference you point out so astutely between Gordon and Earnhardt is (or was) the difference in the personality between those two drivers. Earnhardt was one that liked to get his point across by dominating, while Gordon opts for the Darrell Waltrip-Al Unser philosophy, which is to win the race with as slow a pace as possible. Gordon has always adopted the philosophy of "go fast enough to win and slow enough to finish", while Earnhardt liked to mentally drive his opposition into the ground by dominating start-to-finish. That, more than anything, is why Gordon has never won when he absolutely had to. And NazRacePhan (#198), I think we can also pen Kasey Kahne into the Chase, as well. Although he's not officially clinched (according to NASCAR), Kahne clinched a spot in the Chase when Carl Edwards fell out with engine failure, because Edwards was the only driver capable of knocking Kahne out by stealing tenth place in points. With Edwards now officially eliminated from contention for tenth in points (he's 49 points behind Stewart, one more than the maximum a driver can gain in a race), Kahne is also in the Chase. 204. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Gordon spun out in the final turn at Watkins Glen, he fell from 9th place to 21st. That's 12 points. He's currently 12 points behind Kyle Busch for the 2nd wildcard spot. That's the real kicker for me. I put that race over Martinsville (even though Gordon lost more points in the Martinsville debacle) as far as what race may cost him a Chase berth because it was a self-inflicted injury. You can blame the oil, but the fact that nobody else spun out (on camera; Kyle Busch got turned) makes that race even more sour for me. The bright spot going to at Richmond is that Gordon was one RCR team order away from winning last year's race there, so he's shown he has the ability to compete for wins at Richmond, despite what some people are saying. But his best hope for making the Chase is for something to happen to Kyle Busch that puts him at least one lap down and out of contention. Then again, maybe missing the Chase would be the best thing for Gordon. It'll give him 10 races to test for next year and hopefully give him the drive to be a contender next year. We saw it briefly last year up until the final 10 races when it counted, but not since 2007 has Gordon looked driven to win the title for all 36 races (he finished 3rd in 2009, but the very weak Chase field makes it not as special in my view). Hopefully next year will be different, not just from a results standpoint, but also from a mental standpoint as well. In short, I'm saying maybe missing the Chase will cause him to drive his ass off in 2013 out of frustration (and possibly embarrassment) out of his lousy 2012 season and compete for the championship. 205. Ty (fourturns.blogspot.com) posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank God Gordon didn't win the race. I really wanted Truex to win the race because he's deserving of it this season. It sucked when Jamie McMurray -- my favorite driver -- brought out the caution but oh well. At least Gordon or Jimmie didn't win so that's awesome. 206. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Hamlin has learned his lesson from Phoenix-Homestead 2010, his team is to be considered a legit championship threat. There is no denying, that pit crew won the race. Jimmie Johnson is accident prone....... when the pressure is not so high." Remember Charlotte last year? Jimmie was almost one full race behond, made a mistake when he HAD to finish well (and he would have) had he not made that mistake, he'd still be in it last year. Jimmie has shown to have brain fades once in a while (except for his 2006-2008 run). "Off-topic, but I'm kind of hoping that Junior scores the most points over the whole season, but loses the chase. If that happens, the level of fan backlash just might be enough to convince Brian to do away with his precious little chase once and for all." Lets see here, NASCAR gave Jr. Nation GWC because of there "classy" displace after Jeff G. won at Dega in the spring of 04. Why should ANY of the head people listen to a bunch of blind fanboys (most of Juniors fans are blinded by fandom) who put Jr. on a higher plateu then he deserves to be and take whatever he says as gosspel? I'd rather have NASCAR listen to the rest of the fanbase (which is about 20%) instead of them. 207. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, looking from Gordon's on-board, it looked like he tried getting a run on Hamlin down the backstretch and pass him on the inside in turn 3. He couldn't get there so he went to the outside, which wasn't his strong suit all night. He might've been the best driver all night at passing down the backstretch, whether it be having a huge run on the outside or performing a slingshot on the inside going into turn 3. And had he gotten into the back of Hamlin, I'm sure he would've done it similar to Kyle Busch when he got Hamlin loose early in the race by putting his nose right up to Hamlin's left rear and taking the air off the back of his car. I don't think he would have literally run into the back of him, a la Earnhardt-Labonte '95 and '99. Also, why are we comparing Earnhardt and Gordon? They're two completely different drivers with two unique styles of driving. Earnhardt had the mentality that it was better to go for broke and go broke than finish 2nd without even trying to win, while Gordon's mentality is to not take any risks and just be there at the end have a shot when it mattered most. If anything, we should be comparing Jimmie Johnson to Dale Earnhardt (that's laughable) and Jeff Gordon to Darrell Waltrip (that's a great argument), because otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. 208. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru, NASCAR listens to only one thing: Money. They know that Junior brings the most money into the sport via merchandise sales, advertisements, sponsors, public appearances--you know, everything that doesn't involve winning races. Normally I'd be all in favor of eliminating the Chase in favor of legitimizing the championship, but with the Chase being the only way for Gordon to contend for the title, I'm gonna have to put my feelings on hold for at least another week. 209. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Question for Ty: Why do you so violently hate Jeff? The only driver active in the entire series with a better week-in week-out attitude is Mark Martin. 210. Bronco posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) List of drivers who have been in the series longer than Denny but have less wins. Carl Edwards Dale Earnhardt Jr Kevin Harvick Ryan Newman Greg Biffle Kasey Kahne Martin Truex Jr Jamie McMurray That is one impressive list of drivers to have beaten, and to top it off he has now made the chase every year he has been in Cup. If Dale Jr doesn't win the championship by virtue of his consistency, then I'd love nothing more than for Hamlin to win. Hamlin winning the championship would be sweet revenge for his CC, who has got to love watch Tony struggling at tracks they used to dominate. Grubb 4, Addington 3. Tony has been crap at all the 1.5 milers this year except Las Vegas. Heartbreak for Truex, he lost yet another race that he should have won to Hamlin, and this time it was inadvertently caused by the car he used to drive. By making the chase, he set a record for the most number of years between chase berths, with 4. Biggest shock of the night has to be Harvick dominating and once again looking like a winning driver. Had he not tossed aside Gil Martin at the end of last year, he would have probably won by now. Kyle's going to make it in next week simply because of how stellar he is at Richmond. Don't think Jeff is going to have anything for him. 211. David posted: 09.03.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @205 Ty, can your bias be any more bluntly obvious? I'm having a hard time detecting it. 212. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, using the outside in the last 100 miles is what got Gordon back into contention. Prior to that, he was just trying to hold on to the top ten. And had Gordon got to the inside of Hamlin in turn three, he would never have made it back ahead of Hamlin, and both of them knew it. When Gordon tried to go on the outside, Hamlin made a move to break his momentum, because he knew the only way Gordon could beat him was to get on his outside. hamlin was going to give him the inside, knowing full well that Gordon could not beat him back to the line on the inside line, becuase of the extra speed the outside gives whatever car is up there. In fact, if you remember the race at Atlanta last year, Gordon gave Jimmie Johnson the inside for that very reason. Gordon knew that Johnson could never beat him running low, and that he couldn't beat Hamlin last night by running low. And I think the comparison you make between Gordon and Waltrip is a more accurate comparison, because they won repeatedly on almost all kinds of tracks, and race almost the exact same way. The reason Gordon is historically compared to Earhnardt has to do with how each of those two drivers towered over all the others of their respective generations from an overall basis, but better comparisons for Gordon would be Waltrip and Bobby Allison. The drivers of this generation that I would compare closest to Earnhardt would be Johnson and Kyle Busch, and Busch couldn't tie Earnhardt's shoelaces. And you also mention that Gordon nearly won at Richmond last year, as he was onr RCR team order away from winning that race. But that was last year. Gordon doesn't have the speed this year he had last year. I suspect that he will run closer to what he did earlier this year, but without the problems that knocked him off the lead lap and quickly out of contention. I also expect Denny hamlin to go on an all-out offensive to keep any of those that could knock Kyle Busch out of the Chase from winning by dominating himself. Like I said, all Kyle Busch needs to do is finish on the lead lap, and he should be safe, as far as making the Chase goes. But if he runs into trouble, that would be the only way I see Gordon getting in. And you say, Paul, that missing the Chase would be the best thing that could happen to that #24 team, because they could try more stuff and gamble on race strategy. But again, as long as Alan Gustafson is his crew chief, they won't do anything outside the box, because that's not Gustafson's style. and we all know he's the most conservative crew chief when it comes to pit calls, so he won't make any gambles to get Gordon up near the front, or take chances to win races. Not to mention that Hendrick has already gone into "Chase mode", and Gordon will be lucky to run in the top ten, except for Martinsville and Talladega. If he's to win during the Chase, it would likely be one of those two tracks, because Gufstason's conservative pit calls will have the least amount of impact there. 213. Schroeder51 posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe Ty is a pissed off Dale Earnhardt fan angry that Jeff won all those races back in the late '90s while Earnhardt was struggling. My best guess. 214. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I wouldn't count him out at Dover either because he ran exceptionally well there in the spring, something I don't think he's done there since he won in 2001. It could be that the #24 team sacrificed speed for handling, which unfortunately doesn't work very well in today's NASCAR with track position and the aero-draft being so important at the majority of the tracks. Also, I'm not sure he'll be a contender at Talladega because as we've seen from the three previous restrictor plate tracks this year, it's very hard to pass without getting close to someone, which causes the car to get very hot because NASCAR closed up the grill in order to prevent tandem drafting (another great job by NASCAR's tech team, smh). With it being hard to pass at Talladega this year, Gordon's best option is to qualify up front and stay up there. He won the pole in the spring, but lost the lead in the first turn to Marcos Ambrose and quickly got shuffled out of the top 10. So unless he qualifies great, is more aggressive on restarts, has Alan Gustafson in a competent state of mind, and (most importantly) finishes, I don't think he'll be a contender. Plus, the teams with Roush-Yates Engines have really dominated those tracks this year. All three teams (Roush, RPM, FRM) were running near the front for the bulk of the race at Talladega in the spring. 215. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Paul, the problem with your theory about Gordon possibly doing well at dover has to do with everything at Hendrick getting pooled to the #48 team, which has already begun to happen. And no emphasis at all will be placed on the #24 team at Hendrick when the Chase starts. The #5 and #88 teams, if last night was an indication, are "just there". Actually, Gordon's best shot may be to try to get some kind of info from Tony Stewart's team, since they also run Hendrick equipment. And the reason why the Fords have dominated the plate races the last two years has to do with the cooling system of the Ford engines, which gives them a big advantage, because they can draft close, while the Chevrolets, Toyotas, and Penske Dodges simply can not. The fact that they can draft closely behind cars for greater amounts of time gives them a big edge. That's why we'll see the Roush, Petty, and Wood Brothers cars run up front, if Petty and the Woods actually try to run up front at Talladega. 216. David posted: 09.03.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, you mentioned in post #212 that Gordon won't contend at Richmond because his cars aren't as fast as they were last year. But you have mentioned again and again (and again and again and again and again) in previous posts this year that it was on the large intermediates that he was slow on. Richmond is a short track. Speed isn't exactly the deciding factor there. 217. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And that is yet another reason why I have Dale as the best ever. All of the other "go for broke" drivers (the Busch Boys, Ernie, Neil, Buddy, etc) who would rather lead 3/4 of the race then blow up than creep up on a 2nd place finish were never factors in the championship (with the exception of KuBu switching bodies with Matt Kenseth for the final 10 races of '04). Dale won 7. Obviously he toned it down a bit after a while and knew when to take it easy cause it wasn't worth it, especially in his last 4 championship seasons. But his first 3 came with a complete balls to the wall style while ruffling every feather in sight. Nobody else could maintain success like that. Except Dale who put up legendary numbers doing so. 218. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, at Richmond earlier this year, Gordon qualified among the leaders, then fell back almost immediately when the green flag fell. And while Richmond is a short track, it races like an intermediate. Gordon may be fast enough to run up front, but there's another factor in why I don't think Gordon will factor for the win at Richmond, and that's the fact that his crew chief can't be trusted. Even if Gordon runs up front, I believe that his crew chief will find a way to screw it up. It's for that reason that all Kyle Busch has to do is finish on the lead lap to clinch the last spot in the Chase. Carl Edwards is out of contention, even if he wins, and the other three drivers that could steal the second Wild Card with a win, Ryan Newman, Marcos Ambrose, and Joey Logano, really have not showed they can run that well enough in recent Richmond races. Of the four drivers that have a chance to steal the last Chase spot, I actually give Newman at least as good a chance to win as Gordon if not better, because all his wins since joining Stewart-Haas in 2009 have been on flat tracks of 1 mile and shorter. 219. 10andJoe posted: 09.03.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Why should ANY of the head people listen to a bunch of blind fanboys (most of Juniors fans are blinded by fandom) who put Jr. on a higher plateu then he deserves to be and take whatever he says as gosspel? I'd rather have NASCAR listen to the rest of the fanbase (which is about 20%) instead of them. Because, for once, Fanboy Nation would be singing the same tune as the fans with brains, and maybe the blind sow would find that one truffle? 220. Gordon in the Chase PLEEEAASE! posted: 09.03.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon needed it soooooo bad! If there were a few more laps, he would of won. Lol that would make the first week of back to school much less stressful knowing he was in the chase. 221. JMAX posted: 09.03.2012 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano to Penske 222. murb posted: 09.03.2012 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not surprising. It's a good move for Joey to start over fresh, but I'm not so sure how it will affect Penske overall. Kenseth will be announced as the 20 car driver this week, so it sounds like all the dominoes are falling. 223. Mr X posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As promised here are the up to date top 15 in points standings as of last nights Atlanta race, those of you joining in late can find out how my system works on the 2012 Watkins Glen Cup race comments page, comment #272. Those of you looking for last weeks standings can find them on last weeks Bristol Cup race comments page, comment #313. Top 15 as of AMS-Race #25 Driver-Points Total-Bonus Points-(Difference) 1. Greg Biffle-27530-362-(Leader) 2. Jimmie Johnson-27411-595-(-119) 3. Dale Earnhardt Jr.-27322-230-(-208) 4. Matt Kenseth-26715-287-(-815) 5. Brad Keselowski-26229-261-(-1301) 6. Denny Hamlin-26199-411-(-1331) 7. Martin Truex Jr.-25877-249-(-1653) 8. Clint Bowyer-25240-128-(-2290) 9. Kevin Harvick-24661-117-(-2869) 10. Tony Stewart-24362-250-(-3168) 11. Kasey Kahne-23803-119-(-3727) WC1 12. Kyle Busch-23497-433-(-4033) WC2 13. Jeff Gordon-22772-188-(-4758) 14. Carl Edwards-22118-106-(-5412) 15. Paul Menard-22097-17-(-5433) Being as neither JJ or Biffle, the drivers who have been trading the points lead back and forth for the last few weeks got the results they wanted last night, most of the rest of the top finishers gained between 600 and 1000 points on the leader last night. Notice the way the top 6 in the standings are within one race of each other, and 7th place Martin Truex isn't far off that. 224. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex is starting to strike me as a more talented and successful version of Jerry Nadeau due to the fact that both got a win early in their Cup career, then afterwards every time they were in contention for another, something happened to give the win to another driver. 225. rtcrules posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So if we're comparing drivers to QB's Mark Martin has to be Jim Kelly. Joey Logano/Tim Couch, Trevor Bayne/Matt Flynn, Bobby Labonte/Mark Rypien...? In fact that last one did it both for Gibbs too. 226. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As promised, here is this week's update on how the Chase standings would look with my weighted system. As always, all ties are broken by points standings: 1. Greg Biffle 2036 (points leader, 2 wins) 2. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 2030 (second, 1 win) 3. Jimmie Johnson 2030 (fourth, 3 wins) 4. Matt Kenseth 2027 (third, 1 win) 5. Brad Keselowski 2024 (sixth, 3 wins) 6. Denny Hamlin 2024 (seventh, 4 wins) 7. Martin Truex, Jr. 2018 (fifth, no wins) 8. Clint Bowyer 2012 (eighth, 1 win) 9. Tony Stewart 2012 (tenth, 3 wins) 10. Kevin Harvick 2006 (ninth, no wins) 11. Kasey Kahne 2000 (two wins banked) 12. Kyle Busch 2000 (one win banked, wins tie-breaker by being 12th in points) Here are those that have a chance to claim the final Chase spots with 10 of the 12 spots secured: -Kasey Kahne (11th in points, 2 wins, 18 points out of tenth) -Kyle Busch (12th in points, 1 win, 23 points out of tenth) -Jeff Gordon (13th in points, 1 win, 12 points behind Busch) -Marcos Ambrose (16th), Ryan Newman (17th), and Joey Logano (18th) can make the Chase only with a win. -Carl Edwards (14th, 26 points behind Busch, 14 behind Gordon), Paul Menard (15th, 36 points behind Busch, 24 behind Gordon) need a win and lots of help to make the Chase. Jamie McMurray (19th, more than a full race behind Busch) and Jeff Burton (20th, more than a full race behind Busch) can not make the Chase, even with a win. 227. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Travis Pastrana will drive the #60 car for Roush-Fenway Racing in the Nationwide Series at Richmond. Hmmm...is it possible we might see Travis in a second Roush Nationwide car full-time in 2013, and might Trevor Bayne be sidelined once again for lack of sponsorship? 228. Scott B posted: 09.03.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most probably silly season outcomes as of this week: Kenseth to the 20 at JGR, pretty much a done deal except the formal announcement. Logano to Penske for the 22 seat, more likely than not. Hornish stays at Penske for another season of NNW and maybe some spot Cup starts. 3rd f/t Cup team seems unlikely. Brian Scott to the Phoenix Racing #51 in Cup. Follow the money trail. KuBusch to a second Furniture Row ride. They've wanted to take this step, but will Kurt be too disruptive to the chemistry? E. Sadler to the Gibbs #11 in Nationwide, replacing Brian Scott and opening up room for RCR to concentrate on the Dillon boys. He could also make some spot starts in Cup. Trevor Bayne still without a f/t Cup seat if the #22 and #51 are filled, but it looks like the #43 might open up, which would keep him within the Ford driver family and be a good match personality wise. Just a wild guess on this one. 229. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, I'm actually hearing that Kurt Busch might be in the #43 for Richard Petty next year. Remember that he was in line for that ride this year, but Roush nixed it. But with Penske rejoining the Ford fold, it apparently looks like Petty may not be getting the support it's been getting, so Busch may be in Petty's car next year. Kenseth (#20) and Logano (#22) seem like done deals for next year. And Paul, why would Roush align himself with a driver with a Toyota team? I know he's trying to build up points for his #60 NNS team for next year if he runs two NNS cars (I'm still not sure he'll even run one full-time), but running a guy like Pastrana makes no sense at all. The irony of this would be that before he signed with Roush, Trevor Bayne was also in the #99 NNS car for Michael Waltrip, just as Pastrana is now. And by the way, I don't see Logano doing much better in the #22 car next year than A.J. Allmendinger did this year before his drug suspension, and Denny Hamlin better enjoy his succes this year, because he's going to suffer from Kenseth's arrival next year. 230. Schroeder51 posted: 09.03.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Scott is moving up to Cup next year to run for Rookie of the Year? Oh dear. This can't end well... What the hell happened to Scott anyways? He ran quite well in the Trucks and even won a race there, and showed promise in his Nationwide rookie year, but once he got the ride with Gibbs...something happened. I was actually pulling for him to do really well, and needless to say...he has REALLY let me down. 231. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.03.2012 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Because, for once, Fanboy Nation would be singing the same tune as the fans with brains, and maybe the blind sow would find that one truffle?" More like the blind leading the blind. "Truex is starting to strike me as a more talented and successful version of Jerry Nadeau due to the fact that both got a win early in their Cup career, then afterwards every time they were in contention for another, something happened to give the win to another driver." Hm, i wouldn't disagree but the thing is was Jerry was sacked when he was just starting to gel with the #25 crew. If Jerry had stayied, he have better numbers. IMHO of course. 232. Jordan posted: 09.03.2012 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Comparing drivers to previous drivers and QBs: Jimmie Johnson - Dale Earnhardt/Kurt Warner The Earnhardt comparison should be obvious. Both drivers have dominated in their time and made the competition look a lot worse than it actually is. I believe the Cup Series recently has been among the most competitive in its history, but Johnson is head and shoulders above everyone. They've both had good crew chiefs and drive the cars harder than anyone else. I make the comparison to Warner because he pretty much came from nowhere, going to college at Northern Iowa and going to Arena Football before the NFL, and not many people expected Johnson, who drove two seasons in Busch with a startup team, to come in and blow everyone away. Kyle Busch - Ernie Irvan/Brett Favre Wins a lot, wrecks a lot. Of course, Busch has improved lately I think. The Brett Favre comparison mostly has to do with mentality, as he would rather go for the win with his arm than play it safe, he won a lot of games this way and he also lost a lot. Jeff Gordon - Darrell Waltrip/Michael Vick He's like Darrell because both have won a lot driving cars that were pretty questionable. Evernham was a genius who was largely responsible for his success, and the T-Rex car shows this. Waltrip was driving some "interesting" cars from Junior Johnson for quite a while. He's like Michael Vick because he redefined what teams look for in a driver and as the Falcons have been better with another QB, Hendrick has been better with Johnson. Dale Earnhardt Jr. - Kyle Petty/Brian Griese Dale Earnhardt Jr. has shown flashes of greatness but his success is largely determined by his equipment and the people around him, similar to Kyle Petty. Both were taken farther by their name than by their talent. Brian Griese was a pretty good QB, but was nothing like his father, who won a Super Bowl in the only perfect season in history. Griese had a few good seasons but ultimately wore off his welcome in the NFL. Tony Stewart - AJ Foyt/Ben Roethlisberger Stewart and Foyt both came from open-wheel racing, had experience in many disciplines of motor racing, and showed success in each, though Foyt never took NASCAR as seriously as he did Indycar. Roethlisberger is a quarterback who joined a good team and made it better, and has had his share of off-the-field issues, while Stewart's issues seem to take place in front of the media mostly. Maybe I'll do more of these later but my short attention span is catching up to me now. 233. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.03.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF do you consider Superbowl 38 to be football's version of the 1986 Daytona 500 234. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish they just left Hornish in that #22 car and let him drive full-time next season. He's surprised a lot of people, including myself, with his impressive runs in place of the suspended Allmendinger. Having him in the car next year would keep the rhythm of this year going, whereas putting Logano in it would make the team almost start from scratch again, similar to how 2012 started with Allmendinger joining the team. It may be a fresh start for Logano, but I still think he's not mature enough to handle such a big-time ride with Penske Racing. I think a year in the Nationwide Series would do wonders for him. I feel as if Logano's taking one step sideways, rather than one step backward and two steps forward. Cjs, owner points doesn't matter for the #60 Nationwide team because since they haven't attempted all the races this year, they're not locked into a race regardless of where they stand in owner's points. I brought up the possibility of Pastrana joining RFR next year because of the sponsorship he brings in (although teaming a Red Bull driver with a driver sponsored by NOS is a little ironic) and perhaps Roush was impressed by Pastrana's performance at Atlanta that he decided to give him a shot. This could add to the already eventful silly season, both for the #60 and #99 Nationwide teams. Will Pastrana run full-time in 2013? Will he stay with RAB Racing or join Roush-Fenway Racing? If he leaves RAB, who will drive the #99? Will Kenny Wallace be back full-time, or will it remain a "buy-a-ride" team? If he stays with RAB, who will drive the #60? Might we see it driven full-time/part-time by Roush's Cup drivers? Could we see Chris Buescher run a few races in the #60? Could it become a "buy-a-ride" team as well? I know very little about the situation between Pastrana/Roush/RAB other than the fact that Atlanta was supposed to be Pastrana's last scheduled start in 2012, but now he'll be in the #60 this week, going from Toyota to Ford in one week's time, driving for a Ford owner who has a notorious disliking of Toyotas. Since we're on the subject of Roush, I think it would be a brilliant idea for Roush to enter Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. in some of these Chase races for two reasons: 1.) To gain valuable experience in Cup cars for 2013 and 2.) to help aid his Chase teammates (Kenseth and Biffle) during the Chase. If I were Roush, I'd consider putting Ricky out there for five races: 1.) Loudon because he'll have to learn to slow down earlier heading into those tight corners due to the difference in horsepower between the Cup and Nationwide Series. 2.) Dover because of the high-speed straightaways and high-banked corners. Going there could also help him at Bristol and give him more experience at one of the Series' toughest tracks. 3.) Talladega because of the difference in style between the restrictor plate races in Nationwide and Cup (more pack, less tandem). Plus, he could serve as a drafting partner for Kenseth/Biffle should the time come. 4.) Martinsville because, like Loudon, you have to slow down a lot heading into the hairpin corners. Putting Ricky in an older car could help him learn how much brake to use when entering the corners. I know Roush probably wouldn't do this because he's never put much effort into his Martinsville cars, but I'd put Ricky out there because he's never been there before. 5.) Charlotte/Texas/Kansas because Roush's cars have always been great at the high-speed 1.5 tracks. I'd probably put him in at Texas so that he has a few weeks off from double-duty in order to focus on the Nationwide title, otherwise he'd be running double-duty four weeks straight when he's never before done it two weeks straight. Putting Ricky out there would not only be good for him, but it'd be good for the other Roush cars as well. He could provide data for his teammates by driving R&D equipment without having to worry if the car fails (see Marcos Ambrose, David Ragan, and Greg Biffle, Homestead 2011) because he's not racing for points anyways. In fact, I'd run him unsponsored and tell him to pull off the track in case something were to happen to either Biffle and Kenseth so as to prevent them from losing one more point, because we know from last year, every point counts under this system. And if either of those two were still in the running for the title at Homestead, I might enter him there as well, a la Neil Bonnett in 1993 or Jeff Purvis in 1995. It doesn't necessarily have to be Stenhouse, since my plan isn't for him to be competitive (except at Talladega), but I think it'd benefit him by having more seat time behind the wheel of a Cup car. 235. Schroeder51 posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Next year's rookie battle is going to (finally) be an interesting one with Stenhouse, Patrick, and Scott running-but I expect the number of caution flags next year will go up thanks to Patrick and Scott. 236. Red posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson = Tom Brady Jeff Gordon = Peyton Manning Mark Martin = Dan Marino Matt Kenseth = Eli Manning Darrell Waltrip = Troy Aikman Bill Elliott = Drew Brees Kyle Busch = Brett Favre Kevin Harvick = Philip Rivers David Pearson = Joe Montana Ernie Irvan = Kurt Warner Bobby Allison = John Elway Danica Patrick = Tim Tebow Denny Hamlin = Dan Fouts Sterling Marlin = Rich Gannon Kyle Petty = Kerry Collins Richard Petty = Johnny Unitas Kurt Busch = Michael Vick Trevor Bayne = Jason Campbell Fireball Roberts = Otto Graham Michael Waltrip = Drew Bledsoe Joey Logano = Andrew Luck 237. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you may be forgeting something. If NASCAR ditches the exemption rule, as has been rumored, it goes back to owner's points and where you are, as far as provisionals are concerned, so building up the #60 NNS car's owner points would then mean something if it's run next year, because even with the limited number of appearances, it's finishes are high enough to keep it in the top 30, and avoid the back-up plans in case of a qualifying rainout if the rulebook has to be used, though it's win at Watkins Glen would protect it, anyway. And you forget another possibility regarding Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., if Roush wanted to get him more experience in Cup for next year, and that is to put him in the Wood Brothers' #21 car for the races they are going to run, and there are races at Chicagoland, Charlotte, Talladega, Texas, and Homestead that he could insert Stenhouse in the #21 car to get him some experience, while not straining his own orgainzation, since the Wood Brothers intend to run all five of those races. But I doubt Roush would do that, unless Stenhouse were to either build a big lead or completely fall out of the Nationwide title race. And who's to say that, if Roush wanted to run some races with Pastrana and Chris Buescher, that he might even run them in the #6 NNS car, if it runs next year, which I'm still somewhat skeptical of, and possibly share that ride with Roush's Cup drivers. I know Roush has told Trevor Bayne that he intends to run him full-time for the Nationwide Series championship next year, but I still doubt whether he will be able to, due to sponsorship reasons, which may be behind Roush's possible courting of Pastrana, because he brings sponsorship with him. 238. murb posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm looking for Pastrana to have a really good run at Richmond in that 60 car. Remember, he's got more experience on short tracks than any other type of track due to his East series races. It would be a huge step up from that RAB racing if he were to become a full time Roush driver. He's got plenty of exposure and enough name recognition to get plenty of sponsorship (even though Roush will probably scare them off like he always does with sponsors, lol), so that part shouldn't be a problem. The Truex - Nadeau comparison is really intriguing. 1995 Subaru made a good point about how Jerry was let go at Hendrick just as he was starting to gel there. He had a bunch of great runs in 2001 in the 25. He totally should have won the fall Atlanta race, and he also led some laps and contended at Kansas (I think) before having problems. He also was fast at Daytona Speedweeks in February. I think he even sat on the outside pole for the 500, but they got disqualified for some illegal part or something. This year, I've seen Truex more as a Jeremy Mayfield (the pre-meth 1998 Penske version) type of driver as far as the way he runs races. Truex has contended for wins this year (like Mayfield did that year, even getting his first win at Pocono), but has been pretty inconsistent. I don't see Truex being a factor in the Chase (I see him finishing in the 7th - 12th range), but I do think he's got a few more great shots at getting a win before the year is over. Chicago, Dover, Kansas, Texas, and Homestead all come to mind. I'm surely gonna be pulling for him. 239. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ahhhh! A sentence with both Super Bowl 38 and the 1986 Daytona 500 in it? Are you trying to get me to have a stroke? Kidding. Hard too come up with a racing equivalent for Super Bowl 38 from a Panthers fan's perspective. I spent two weeks just hoping we wouldn't get blown out. Then the game started and we hung in there, then the Pats pulled away a bit and I'm like "oh shit, here it is", then they just started trading punches and Carolina actually took the lead and I really thought we were gonna win it and be Super Bowl champs. Then Kasey kicked it out of bounds and I knew right then it was curtains. Now, as it turns out, the Pats were most likely cheating. Maybe the '95 stretch run? From "Jeff's up by 300 points, it is over" to "damn, if Dale just had one more race" to realizing they were probably cheating too (the Coke 600 anyone?). Of course the biggest difference is I wasn't quite two years old for the '86 500 so I wasn't having to suffer through it live like I did in '90. And '91. And '93. And '95. And '96. And '97. 240. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, that is an excellent list. Except Drew Bledsoe was pretty good, so the Mikey comparison doesn't work. 241. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, if NASCAR were to go back to the pre-2005 provisional rules, that wouldn't be a bad idea because as it stands, the #60 car sits 33rd in owner points, 120 points outside the top 30. It'd be a smart thing for them to bring in driver like Pastrana who have sponsorship and let them race and build up the team's owner points in time for the start of next season. And if that team gets enough funding from sponsored drivers, maybe they'll be able to put Trevor Bayne out there unsponsored for a couple races before the year is out. And since we're on the subject of Trevor Bayne, why is it that that guy can't find sponsorship? Even when he was at MWR, he didn't have sponsorship every week, and was even released citing a lack of sponsorship. Now, even as a Daytona 500 winner and winner of a Nationwide race, not only does he not have sponsorship, he no longer has a full-time ride. I wonder if that has to do with him or Roush. I know Roush has a history of asking too much from sponsors, but could it be that Trevor is too dependent on Roush finding him a sponsor when maybe he should go out looking for one himself. Take a look at Blake Koch for example. He had a full-time Nationwide ride heading into 2012, but lost his ride with Rick Ware Racing after his sponsor pulled out (credit ESPN) and was forced to start-and-park. Earlier this year, he took a few weeks off from racing in order to find a sponsor, which he did, and was able to run the distance at Daytona as a result. I think if Trevor were to do that, he'd be more valuable to that team by bringing in sponsorship. Then again, maybe that's what he's been doing this whole time, but has been stonewalled by Roush's high price tag and limitations he holds on his drivers. Either way, the best way for Trevor to succeed in NASCAR is to get away from Roush. Even if he does race the full Nationwide schedule in 2013, where does he go from there? A fourth RFR Cup car? As of right now, they can barely fund three of their Cup cars. Is he forced to stay running part-time for the Wood Brothers? If so, it'll be a great learning process for him, but the difference in equipment between the two teams is very evident. I feel like if not for Roush, Bayne would be one of, if not, the top candidate for the Penske #22 Cup car next year. If Roush really cared about Trevor, he'd let him at least explore the rest of the Ford stable, even if it means he won't be driving for him. Also Cjs, I didn't consider Ricky for the Wood Brothers #21 because I highly doubt that would happen. If not for anything else, I think Ricky should at least drive the #6 Cup car at Talladega because he could help his teammates in the draft. And with the cooling system that the Fords have that allowed them to dominate the three previous restrictor plate races, he'd be a pivotal part in keeping his teammates up front. 242. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, one change I would make (other than Bledsoe-Waltrip) is I would compare Jeff Gordon to Terry Bradshaw. Both won 4 championships and both were among the best at their positions in their primes, but they each have their critics saying that their success was largely-based on their teams and that they won those championships in spite of themselves. DSFF, I'm surprised you didn't mention the '99 Daytona 500. Man, what a great finish that was, seeing the Intimidator do everything he could put just couldn't pass Wonder Boy in those final laps. A lot of people criticize Gordon for collapsing under pressure in the biggest races, but he held his own by staying out in front of Earnhardt for those final 11 laps, not giving Earnhardt even a chance at passing him in the biggest race of the year. 243. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i also agree that a year of full-time nationwide would have been good for logano, but supposably, according to inside sources, gibbs offered joey a full-time nns gig and 10-12 cup races (the deal that is now elliott sadler's for the taking) and joey was, quote, "insulted" by not being offered a full-time cup ride, and he then started looking for a new team. 244. rtcrules posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a few more. Richard Petty/Otto Graham Both got 7 Denny Hamlin/Tony Romo Lee Petty/Archie Manning Terry Labonte/Kurt Warner Derrick Cope/Trent Dilfer Harry Gant/Doug Flutie Neil Bonnett/Bernie Kosar Kenny Wallace/Tim Hasselbeck Jeremy Mayfield/JaMarcus Russell Matt Kenseth/Troy Aikman Brian Vickers/Kerry Collins Geoff Bodine/Boomer Esiason Bobby Allison/John Elway Scott Speed/Kevin Kolb Tim Richmond/Joe Namath 245. Jordan posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd compare Scott Speed to Drew Henson. Drew went and played baseball in the Yankees farm system for a few years and was mediocre at best before returning to football, which may be a little better than can be said for Scott Speed in F1 before he returned to the USA and took up stock car driving. Needless to say, neither one ever really looked good at their new profession. 246. murb posted: 09.03.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "lost his ride with Rick Ware Racing after his sponsor pulled out (credit ESPN)" What was the story on this again? I remember there was some big controversy about it. It was disappointing because I thought Blake was doing a decent job with that team. I've stated it on here multiple times (so have others like cjs). Roush is holding Trevor hostage, and it is a damn travesty. And the most unfortunate part to me seems like Trevor is scared of Jack. I read an interview with Trevor from a few weeks ago where he said that he wouldn't consider leaving or exploring other rides in the Ford camp (like the 22 or a possible ride with RPM if Almirola keeps fizzling out) unless Jack told him it was an option. I'd have to think that he was one of the top candidates for the 22 car along with Logano. Like you said Paul, I have no idea why he will not just let Trevor look around at other Ford teams. But I guess that's the Jackass in the Hat for you. 247. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) rtcrules, I wouldn't compare Jeremy Mayfield with JaMarcus Russell because at least Mayfield had some talent and success before he self-imploded. In fact, I wouldn't even go as far as comparing any driver to Russell because I don't think any driver could be as terrible and have as bad work ethic and attitude as he did. Yes, there have been drivers with lousy work ethic, but most of them also had talent and were capable of having success in NASCAR (see Earnhardt Jr., Dale). I would compare Jeremy Mayfield to Trent Dilfer because they both had some success in spite of themselves. They each had a few pretty good seasons, but even in those seasons were very inconsistent and were very much hit-or-miss on a weekly basis. One week they'd the win, the next week they'd collapse late, the next week they'd be invisible. 248. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey which driver would you compare Ryan leaf to. 249. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, Blake Koch was originally sponsored by the Rise Up and Register campaign, which was an organization designed to encourage people to vote in the upcoming November elections. They were scheduled to air an ad on ESPN back in March, but had the ad pulled due to "religious overtones" coming from Koch's personal website. As a result, Rise Up and Register pulled their sponsorship and Koch has been forced to start-and-park with various Nationwide and Truck teams for most of the year, with the July race at Daytona being the one exception. I find ESPN's reasoning rather odd because they have no problems promoting other Christian athletes' religious beliefs (see Tebow, Tim), yet they did with this ad just because it's associated with a driver of the Christian faith. My guess is that the "religious overtones" reason was just a cover-up for the fact that they don't want to promote an unknown driver and that they, like NASCAR, follow the money trail wherever it goes. I find this rather disturbing because a.) a television network has the power to take away sponsorship from an up-and-coming driver and team, and b.) that the sport that has coverage on that network did absolutely nothing while one of their smaller teams suffered at the hands of that very network. It's nice to know that NASCAR cares more about money than helping one of its teams survive, especially since sponsorship is so difficult to find anyways. So going back to our previous conversation of Brian France vs. Bernie Ecclestone, at least (to my knowledge) Formula One didn't let a television network dictate and have control over the success of a team, which is one of the reasons why I have no respect for Brian France because he only cares about how much money the sport brings in, not about the people that work within the sport. 250. murb posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, thanks for that info Paul. I too have little if any respect for Brian France. I like watching old races on Youtube from time to time, and everything just seemed way better back in the day when he wasn't running things. I guess it goes to show how great his dad and grandfather were, and how terrible he is. 251. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin Lowe, I would say Brian Vickers and Robby Gordon are comparable to Ryan Leaf, but for two different reasons. Vickers is like Leaf because of the amount of hype he had coming into the Sprint Cup Series that he's failed to live up to. He had one great Nationwide season in 2003, but has failed to live up to those expectations placed upon him, having only two wins and zero top 10 points finishes in eight full-time Cup seasons. Robby Gordon is comparable to Leaf because of his attitude, talent, and lack of teamwork. Believe it or not, Ryan Leaf did have talent (becoming the first rookie quarterback to win his first two starts and leading a historically bad Washington State team to the Rose Bowl in 1997), but allowed himself to self-destruct early in his career and as a result of a combination of things (injuries, bad attitude, bad work ethic, lack of leadership, being a bad teammate; in other words, being a cancer), never even came close to reaching his full potential. Robby is much the same way as Leaf because while it's well documented how talented of a driver Robby is, the only thing that's prevented Robby Gordon from reaching his full potential in NASCAR is Robby Gordon. Whether it be his off track feud with Tony Stewart, or his inability to get along with Kevin Harvick (although I'm not sure who's more at fault in that deal), or his decision to leave RCR and start his own team, he's been his own worst enemy. If not for the reasons I listed above, Robby would be a yearly contender for the championship, maybe even winning one at this point. But I think DaleSrFanForever said it best on Robby's driver page by saying he's a "waste of talent". I hate to say it, but it's true. I think if you were to take Robby's talent and work ethic and put them on a Casey Mears or a David Ragan, they would be the face of the sport because not only would they be great on the track, they'd be great off the track as well. 252. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Derrick Cope/Trent Dilfer" Amen. Here is one I thought of- Harry Gant and Warren Moon. Each got a late start on the big stage while they spent their youth dominating the lower leagues (Harry winning tone of track championships on the North Carolina bullrings, Moon winning 5 straight CFL titles) then although neither won the title on the big stage, it was because neither was ever on a championship caliber team. But they each left an undeniable impact on the big stage. And each was a part of an epic collapse that wasn't really their fault. Warren Moon was on the Oilers team that had the huge lead in the playoffs in Buffalo when their defense decided to quit playing leading to the most epic playoff collapse in NFL history, and Harry Gant led 350 of 400 laps in the 1991 Holly Farms 400 and was well on his way to a modern era record 5th straight win (which would still stand today) when a brake line failed allowing Earnhardt to pounce. Ryan Leaf is Logano all the way. What the hell is Penske doing? The 1999 Daytona 500 didn't bother me too bad for a couple of reasons. First off Dale had finally broken through the previous year so I didn't have the burning want to see Dale finally celebrate winning that race for once anymore. Secondly, he wasn't really a factor in that race until the end, so it wasn't like the others where I had 3 hours to anticipate an Earnhardt Daytona 500 win only for it to fall through in the end. Hell, at the end of the 1990 Daytona 500, I was more disappointed than at the end of The Expendables 2 when I realized Chuck Norris didn't roundhouse kick anyone (though I must say I loved the movie, yay for gratutitous violence). 253. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No problem murb. Sometimes I wish the world itself was the way it was back in the '70s and '80s (with 2012 rights and health care) because it seemed like drivers were rewarded more for what they were than what they looked like. I honestly don't know if Dale Earnhardt would succeed in this era because of who he was back in 1975 (longer hair, southern accent, came from small town, had no money, drove aggressively, tore up equipment, not politically correct, not always friendly with the media, etc.). I think it's a crying shame knowing just how much the sport has changed for the worse in the last 20 years. Instead of being rewarded the bigger rides based on your talent and what you've accomplished, drivers are more rewarded based on what they look like and how much money you have. I mean, just the fact that Joey Logano is line for a top Cup ride next year and Kurt Busch is treading water is an insult to me as a race fan. 254. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent comparison between Leaf and Robby. Paul, you nailed it. Attitude sunk both of them. I went for the obvious Logano comparison because both were highly touted and flamed out. But your's is much better. 255. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that Harry Gant-Warren Moon comparison is great. Just like Warren Moon is one of the greatest quarterback to never win a Super Bowl, Harry Gant is one of the greatest drivers never to win a Cup championship. Also, they each had similar careers: They each dominated their sport's lower divisions for years (sorry CFL fans), then they had a mixture of success and failure in the '80s when they finally reached the big leagues, and then they experienced a few title contending years in the early '90s. One can only wonder what they would have accomplished had they been in the big leagues since their early 20s. I don't know if Moon would have won a championship, but I'm sure Gant would have won at least 60-70 Cup races and a championship. 256. rtcrules posted: 09.03.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I went with the Gant/Flutie comparison cause of their late start to their careers but Moon is a far better comparison. Id compare Ryan Leaf to Kenny Irwin Jr., obviously Irwin didn't have the attitude Leaf had but he will always, unfairly be compared to Jeff Gordon like Ryan Leaf is compared to Peyton Manning. Also, I think the Brian Vickers comparison to Kerry Collins is far more accurate then Ryan Leaf. At least Vickers/Collins could drive/play their a$$es off when they needed to save their careers while pissing away their talent the majority of their careers. And the more I think about it Joey Logano = Todd Maranovich (sp?) 257. David posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where did post #221 get his information? I haven't seen news about Logano or Penske all day. 258. Red posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great discussion, guys. Anyway, the reason I compared Michael Waltrip to Drew Bledsoe is because both of them have been given FAR more opportunities than their performances should merit. Mikey is 9th all-time in starts, Drew is 6th all-time in pass attempts. There have been 169 QB's in NFL history to throw at least 1,500 passes. Of those, Drew Bledsoe ranks a pitiful 117th in career Passer Rating. So...117th in performance, but 6th in number of opportunities. Very Mikey-esque. Bonus Bledsoe Bash - Drew's career playoff numbers: 51.2% completions, 4.86 yards per pass, 6 TD's, 12 INT's, 54.9 Rating Possibly the most overrated QB in history, but inexplicably his teams just kept letting him throw. 259. Red posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And the more I think about it Joey Logano = Todd Marinovich" That is a great comparison, better than Andrew Luck which I said earlier. Both Joey and Todd were raised from near infancy to be stars in their respective sports. Both had overbearing helicopter dads who treated their sons as commodities rather than kids. Both entered the big leagues with unrealistic expectations, and both predictably failed to live up to the hype. Now, I don't think Logano will become a drug addict like Marinovich did, and I don't think he'll walk away from racing and become a painter like Marinovich did. But honestly I feel bad for both of them, because they never had a chance to be just a regular kid (or regular adult for that matter). Ricky Rudd = Steve DeBerg. They were both tough SOB's who hung around for 20+ years, had a bunch of slightly above average seasons, but were never considered elite. Kurt Busch = Jay Cutler. Both have enormous amounts of raw talent, but their whiny, entitled attitudes make them hard to root for and hard to work with. Kurt could win multiple championships if he could get his head on straight, and Jay could win multiple Super Bowls if he had even a sliver of leadership and professionalism. 260. RaceFanX posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Formula One didn't let a television network dictate and have control over the success of a team" Back in the 1976 F1 had no issues whatsoever with the BBC going out of its way to make sure the Surtees team's cars were never shown on the air. The BBC didn't approve of Surtees sponsor being Durex condoms. 261. Paul posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a few driver/quarterback comparisons I don't think have been mentioned yet: Casey Atwood/Rick Mirer: Each were simply average at their profession, but were undeservedly deemed to be the next Jeff Gordon/Joe Montana despite their average results prior to entering the big leagues. Dale Earnhardt, Jr./Vince Young: Each have shown flashes of brilliance, but don't like to be pushed beyond their comfort levels and have gone into emotional slumps in their careers. Kasey Kahne/David Carr: Might be a bit controversial, but both were screwed by their first teams' lack of stability and bad business decisions, and neither reached their full potential as the team's #1 guy. Jason Leffler/Heath Shuler: Both had a lot of success in the lower leagues, but accomplished absolutely nothing in the big leagues. Joey Logano/Matt Leinart: Both are/were the best in the lower league, but lack the mentality to compete in the big leagues. Juan Pablo Montoya/Jeff George: Both had a tremendous amount of talent, but let their huge egos get in the way of their productivity. Steve Park/Chad Pennington: Both had great ability, but neither could stay healthy for a lengthy period of time and ultimately had their careers cut short due to injury. Kyle Petty/Brian Griese: Both had pretty good careers, but could never move out of their famous fathers' shadows. David Ragan/Byron Leftwich: Both replaced their teams' only previous #1 guys (Mark Martin, Mark Brunell). While they had flashes of brilliance, both were largely unproductive. Reed Sorenson/Kyle Boller: Both had a lot of hype coming into the big leagues, but neither were able to be the #1 guy and together have a handful amount of combined highlights. Jack Sprague/Cade McNown: Both had the talent to succeed, but both were huge disappointments in the big leagues and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Michael Waltrip/Scott Mitchell: Both very tall. Both made a lot of money for as little talent they had. Both are often remembered for their few bright career moments. Both had largely pedestrian careers. J.J. Yeley/Danny Wuerffel: Neither had the ability to succeed in the big leagues, and ultimately both failed to relive their lower league success. 262. cjs3872 posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David (#257), although it hasn't been made official yet, it's an almost certainty that Joey Logano will be moving to Penske's #22 car with Matt Kenseth replacing him in the #20 car for Joe Gibbs. With that, and Ryan Newman almost certainly remaining in the #39 SHR car next year, silly season's almost complete, where the Cup series is concerned. the only question is where Kurt Busch is liable to end up, and my gut tells me that Busch, the 2004 NASCAR champion, wil end up in either a second Furniture Row Motorsports car as a teammate to Regan Smith, or in the #43 car for Richard Petty Motorsports next year, replacing Aric Almirola. However, things are popping all over the place in the Nationwide Series with Elliott Sadler leaving RCR, possible changes in the Roush Nationwide lineup as Travis Pastrana may be auditioning for a ride with Roush, and other potential changes to the Nationwide lineup for next year. 263. Baker posted: 09.03.2012 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson/Otto Graham 264. 18fan posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The one hurdle for Newman will be sponsorship as SHR needs a sponsor for 22 races for Tony plus however many races they need for Ryan's car. 265. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, your comparisons of Rudd/DeBerg and Busch/Cutler are right on the money. Busch and Cutler are their own worst enemies and may be more known for their blowups than for their performance. And you're damn right about Rudd and DeBerg being the toughest guys at their positions. We all know Rudd drove the '84 Daytona 500 with both eyes taped open so he could see, but DeBerg was known for playing through the pain as well, including playing with laryngitis, a broken hand and an exposed metal pin sticking out of his finger, and a bloody chin. Also, neither ever came close to winning a championship (what 1991 season?) and both were notoriously conservative at their sport (Rudd with 23 wins in 906 starts, DeBerg at one point held the record for lowest interception percentage in a season). 266. Mr X posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really wish I knew anything about football, as this conversation really has everyone going. 267. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, I seriously overestimated Drew Bledsoe. Those numbers are definitely eye opening. Although I guess it should've been an indicator that Drew went down early in 2001 and the Pats dynasty immediately took off. Yeah, as it turns out Tom Brady is really freaking good, but it still should've been a sign. 268. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, speaking of the Nationwide Series' silly season, I wonder what Joe Gibbs Racing's driver lineup will look like. With Sadler coming aboard, Brian Scott possibly leaving, Logano leaving, Kyle Busch driving for his own team, and Hamlin being having admitted not liking having to do double-duty, I wonder if JGR will rely more on their Cup drivers filling in or if they'll give their development drivers more opportunities. Kenseth could surely step back in for a few races in 2013, but he's only run one race in the last two seasons and may not want to do much double-duty at 40 years old. Of course, they could always use MWR's drivers to fill-in when needed. They could even provide a full-time ride for Brian Vickers, who has driven with Dollar General part-time the last four years and has re-energized his career this season. I don't know what's going to happen, but certainly with Logano leaving it'll be interesting to see whether they still run three cars in 2013, who will benefit most from the large opening in the schedule w/o Logano, and what will happen with GameStop sponsorship. I could see Logano taking GameStop with him to Penske and sponsoring him part-time in Cup and Nationwide. My guess is that with Penske's Nationwide team, Hornish will continue driving the #12 full-time in 2013 with hopes of maybe moving that whole team up to Cup for 2014, while Brad, Joey, Ryan Blaney, and JV split time in the #22. I'd expect Blaney to run full-time for BKR in the Truck Series. I hate seeing teams recycle the same drivers every year, but that's the way it looks like to me. 269. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it okay to compare Brian France to Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones. Both men have dragged their franchises into the abyss. 270. murb posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, This conversation is going pretty strong. I'm just a casual football fan. So I'm not really familiar with the backstories of quarterbacks like I am with most of the drivers. It really is intriguing though. But there's a few guys who I haven't seen mentioned. Like, who would be the Greg Biffle of the NFL? Or vice versa. Or what about Jamie McMurray? 271. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is one: Rusty Wallace - Troy Aikman Neither has a defineable moment, for Rusty a big win and for Troy a play in a big game that gets replayed over and over, each simply cranked out winning performances and championship caliber seasons over and over (of course the difference is Aikman never had to go against Montana's Niners while Rusty always had Dale to contend with) and had undeniable first ballot HOF careers. But here is where the real bonus comes in. Both seemed to be slam dunks as television commentators after their careers ended as both were very articulate in their careers. Yet each has been inexplicably awful in the booth. And nobody knows why. At least Troy had approximately 5,319 concussions in his career, so that might be a contributing factor. Also, in this analogy, David Pearson would be Joe Montana, it was no surprise either one was awful on television, in fact we all mostly wondered why they put them on tv. 272. murb posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They could even provide a full-time ride for Brian Vickers, who has driven with Dollar General part-time the last four years and has re-energized his career this season." I've actually heard that this might be pretty close to happening. They would bring in Elliott to run one of them full time along with a part time ride in a fourth Cup car. And then they would also bring on Vickers in another full time NNS car, and he would also continue running the 55 car part time for MWR. And then their third car would just be for the young guys and Matt/Denny if they want to run some. "Brad, Joey, Ryan Blaney, and JV split time in the #22." That sounds good, except without Villeneuve. I'm hoping that we have seen the last of him in Nascar. 273. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bobby Labonte - Mark Rypien (sp?) Each won a championship with an impressive performance (each under Joe Gibbs no less) then fell off the face of the Earth. 274. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, that driver lineup sounds both realistic and good for JGR. I hate seeing veterans recycled and the younger guys held back, but it'd give JGR a realistic shot at the title who two guys who could enter next season as Nationwide champions. As for Villeneuve, I personally would like to see him win just once in NASCAR just because of his lack of success since 1997, but I understand I'm in the minority on the one. As for your football comparisons, I'll say Greg Biffle/Phil Simms and Jamie McMurray/Matt Cassel. Simms never got the credit he deserved for his two Super Bowl wins (he was injured in the 2nd one, but led the team through the regular season), and I don't think Biffle gets the recognition he deserves for being a 2-time NASCAR champion from the northwest and being the only driver in NASCAR history to finish in the top 2 in points in all top three series. While neither were dominant in their era, they were both very reliable and capable of winning with a good team behind them. And like McMurray, Cassel was a virtual unknown before getting his opportunity (had zero college starts). Both got their chance after the star got injured in their primes (Sterling Marlin, Tom Brady), both made the most of their opportunity by having a lot of early success, and both were rewarded with their own new jobs. Unfortunately, neither have mirrored their shocking success on a yearly-basis (ironically, both had their most success other than their first opportunity in 2010), and neither are looked at as the #1 guy. DSFF, you nailed it with Rusty and Troy, especially when comparing their announcing careers. And as for Joe Montana, I heard audio of one of his locker room speeches from their '88 or '89 seasons and that guy just sounds awkward speaking in front of a group. And I did hear Pearson when he was on NASCAR Trackside once and could barely hear what he had to say. Oh well, actions speak louder than words, so I won't knock them anymore. Benjamin Lowe, I would put Jerry Jones on a higher pedestal than Brian France because at least Jerry had some success in his first few years. Also, while they both love money, Jerry at least puts his team's best interest first. 275. irony posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How do I know that NASCAR presently sucks? I pulled for Jeff Gordon to win this race. Never before, even against Kyle Busch last year at Richmond. 276. murb posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here, David: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/09/03/report-logano-heading-to-penske-racing-in-2013/ 277. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Danica Patrick = Tim Tebow" While they are both media darlings (credit ESPN), Tim has something Danica doesn't: An edge went the chips are down. Oh and he can win, Danica...........well can't. here you go murb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZZBTXZLvhw 278. Red posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Except Drew Bledsoe was pretty good, so the Mikey comparison doesn't work." Like Mikey, Bledsoe was given TONS of opportunities, but he actually shit the bed more often than not. Mikey is 9th in career starts, Bledsoe is 6th in career pass attempts. I'll concede that Drew was better than Mikey, but he was still not very good: Among quarterbacks with at least 1500 pass attempts, Bledsoe ranks 117th out of 169 in career Passer Rating (era-adjusted). So...117th in performance, yet 6th in opportunities. Sounds a lot more like Mikey now, doesn't it? Oh, and Bledsoe's career playoff numbers: 51.2 comp %, 6 TD, 12 INT, 54.9 Passer Rating. Yikes! Drew Bledsoe = WAY Overrated. Paul, Jeff Gordon has performed far better over his career than Terry Bradshaw did. Using the same list as the Bledsoe numbers, Bradshaw ranks 64th in career era-adjusted Passer Rating. Yes Terry was good in the playoffs, but Jeff Gordon is miles better than 64th all-time no matter how you measure it. IMO, Bradshaw gets overhyped because he played for a high profile franchise like the Steelers, because he was the 1st pick in the draft, and because of his colorful personality. If anyone is interested, here is the QB ranking list I'm using: http://pfref.com/tiny/JB4gR 279. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wasn't comparing Gordon to Bradshaw on a statistical standpoint as, like you pointed out, Bradshaw is ranked 64th in passer rating; pretty low considering he won four Super Bowls with the dominant Pittsburgh Steelers of the '70s. But they are similar in some ways as they each have four titles and have been criticized for not being as good as their team surrounding them. Of course, statistically speaking, Gordon is more of a Peyton Manning, but he and Bradshaw do have some similarities. I don't agree with the criticism, but some people do. 280. Daniel posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Richmond entry list: -Mark Green in the #0 -David Reutimann in the #10 -Ken Schrader in the #32 281. Anonymous posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Blue Ox Racing will attempt their debut Saturday with Mark Green behind the wheel of the #0 Toyota. Trivia time! When was the #0 used last in Cup Series competition? 282. Jordan posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica Patrick compares to Matt Leinart in that both live the "Hollywood" lifestyle and are famous what happens off the track/field more so than on it. 283. Daniel posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Bliss in '06? 284. Daniel posted: 09.04.2012 - 12:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mean '05. 285. Schroeder51 posted: 09.04.2012 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Mark Green makes the race, wouldn't this be his Cup series debut? 286. The Final Gear posted: 09.04.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Trivia time! When was the #0 used last in Cup Series competition?" I'm pretty sure it's the Carl Haas Best Buy/Netzero team that featured Mike Bliss in 05 but I don't know if Eric McClure used that number when he one-offed at Daytona. 287. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has the Kenseth press conference already happened? Was it televised? I can't even find a time for it. He is only a Cup champion, has 5 Top 5 points finishes, over 20 career wins, and 2 Daytona 500 wins including the most recent one. I know it has been common knowledge for a while, but it would still be nice to see a champion announce his only carrer move in Cup to date. Hell, Logano's move to Penske has been given as much if not more attention. Logano has done hardly anything despite massive amounts of hype. And of course June's Earth shattering set of press conferences in '07 were treated like presidential inaugurations when he announced he would leave DEI to join HMS so he could win 2 wins in 5 seasons while his teammates and satellite teammates have won the championship every single season so far. 288. 10andJoe posted: 09.04.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Blue Ox Racing will attempt their debut Saturday with Mark Green behind the wheel of the #0 Toyota. SS Motorsports, actually. Blue Ox is the sponsor. >Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Mark Green makes the race, wouldn't this be his Cup series debut? Yup. He attempted one race in 2001 and two races in 2003 though. 289. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know if Eric McClure used that number when he one-offed at Daytona." McClure ran #0 in the Busch Series back in 2007, but has never used that number in Cup. Often times, he drove the #04 as a second Morgan-McClure entry. I find it a little odd that of all the Green brothers, Mark Green is the only one who can come up with sponsorship (Blue Ox). I'm not saying he doesn't have talent; quite the opposite as I read an article where Jeff Green said that Mark was the most talented driver of the Green brothers. But based on his lack of success in his NASCAR career compared to his champion brothers, it's interesting to say the least seeing how much success he has finding sponsorship compared to his brothers. I'm glad Mark is back in NASCAR, as he has a ton of talent but has never had a fair shot. DSFF, it could be because of how Matt has gone out of his way to avoid talking about his contract situation while Joey has been a bit vocal about it. That's one of the reasons why I have so much respect for Matt, he's doing his best to concentrate on winning the 2012 Cup championship and doesn't want his contract to be a distraction, whereas I feel like Joey started to tank once he realized he wouldn't be back in the #20 in 2013. Penske's already going through a lot of changes and I don't see how bringing in an unproductive driver is going to help their transition to Ford. On another note, Darrell Wallace, Jr. will be in the #20 and Ryan Truex will be in the #99 in the Nationwide Series. I'd imagine that should Pastrana leave RAB Racing after 2012, JGR and RAB will share talent and assist each other next season. 290. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 2:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ooh, now I want to do comparisons of NASCAR drivers to IndyCar and F1 drivers (since I know little about football, though Red's football picks looked pretty good from the little I know). I'll start with IndyCar because the split meant there are MANY more drivers to choose from, so it's much easier... Dale Earnhardt = A.J. Foyt (badass, manly man, whatever...) Richard Petty = Mario Andretti (insane longevity, although I'm not totally comfortable with this one since Petty was a much more reliable finisher, but I still think he fits Andretti better than Foyt) David Pearson = Rick Mears (completely unflappable, hardly ever made mistakes, thinking man's driver...) Al Unser = Cale Yarborough (able to dominate equally whether full-time or part-time) Rusty Wallace = Michael Andretti ("chokes" in marquee races (who gives a shit) and could only close on a title once but dominates everywhere else) Matt Kenseth = Tony Kanaan (boring consistency robots who look far more impressive in retrospect than they ever did at the time; they also have a knack for getting the best out of mid-pack cars far more than most rivals) Dale Earnhardt, Jr. = Helio Castroneves (drivers who traded in their likability and talent to become massively overrated media clowns) Marcos Ambrose = Will Power (mindblowing on any twistie, pretty pathetic on any oval; helps that they're both Aussies) Kyle Busch = Paul Tracy (maddeningly inconsistent - they could win or cause a really stupid crash on any track at any point in their career) Sterling Marlin = Arie Luyendyk (calling them marquee race specialists is selling them a bit short, but just a bit and both were definitely second tier) Bobby Labonte = Jimmy Vasser (champions who were not really championship-caliber only winning the title due to grossly superior cars and got badly overshadowed by their teammates after they got their ONE title) Red Byron = Ray Harroun (won the first one and hardly ever competed again) Carl Edwards = Sam Hornish, Jr. (feasted on cookie cutters a BIT too much to be taken completely seriously) Dale Jarrett = Danny Sullivan (good drivers whose greatness was solely being with the right teams at the right times, but they're still better than B. Labonte and Vasser). Michael Waltrip = Scott Goodyear (Eddie Cheever might be better since he actually won, but NOBODY in racing history has ridden three near-misses longer than Goodyear, who never deserved to win Indy in the first place, and now they're both major annoyances in the booth too acting like they're "legends" just because of their "success" in marquee races! At LEAST MW actually won, as cheap as they were, so this makes Goodyear even worse in my mind, but I guess Goodyear was somewhat better on other tracks, but it also stands out to me that Sam Hornish, Jr. won TITLES in cars that Goodyear was more or less mediocre in) Ward Burton = Buddy Lazier (hard luck underdogs you can't help rooting for (I even know lots of CART devotees/early IRL bashers who still like Lazier); it's too bad you can't take either of their marquee race wins seriously) Davey Allison = Greg Moore (Second-tier drivers who get hyped up to megastars because they died before their theoretical prime; I know NOBODY agrees with me about Davey but I simply insist that Ernie Irvan just flat-out kicked his ass upon taking over the #28 after Davey's lackluster start to 1993) Ryan Newman = Ryan Briscoe (looked really good at the start of their career and RAPIDLY fizzled to nothing; only wins due to flukish circumstances) Johnny Benson = Graham Rahal (overachieves in the bad cars, sucks in the good ones) Brad Keselowski = Ryan Hunter-Reay (always showed talent but after some rough years in questionable equipment, neither of them were exactly expected to explode into superstardom, and did so kind of out of nowhere with once-powerhouse teams that were almost left for dead) Wally Dallenbach, Jr. = Jon Beekhuis (sucky drivers (well, except Wally in Trans-Am and Beekhuis in Indy Lights), GREAT announcers) Ken Schrader = Scott Pruett (likable veterans who'll race anything and deservedly had long careers, and it's puzzling that neither of them were able to become first-tier) Jeff Gordon = Scott Dixon (equally strong everywhere, started at an insane age, but were overshadowed in the later stages of their careers by a luckier teammate...I still think Dixon will finish 3rd in wins behind A.J. and Mario when all is said and done) Ned Jarrett = Gil de Ferran (simply did everything there was to do in a very short period and retired. Yeah, Ned didn't win Daytona and Gil wasn't a PROLIFIC winner, so this may be a stretch...) Ernie Irvan = Kenny Brack (injury-shortened careers that should have been so much more) Brian France = Tony George (need I say more?) Okay, I'm stopping now. 291. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right, I'll give on Davey and Greg Moore. Calling both of them second-tier is a little harsh. I did put them both as legends on my site (but I also put several other drivers there I don't consider legendary at all, as I erred on the side of generosity). Since Greg Moore was a better oval driver than Castroneves (there's no doubt in my mind about THAT) he might already be a 4-time Indy 500 winner against the diluted IRL split field, and he probably would have won a title which Castroneves is never going to do. Davey was certainly more championship-caliber than Jarrett or B. Labonte, and I LIKE him more than most of the Cup stars (really), but I bash him a lot simply because a lot of other non-champions (G. Bodine, Irvan, Gant, Rudd, Bonnett, Fireball Roberts, Fred Lorenzen, Curtis Turner) get ignored and he gets elevated to a level greater than he deserves... 292. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll do F1 tomorrow maybe. Wasted too much time and probably killed too much conversation with that post... 293. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh wait, Ernie Irvan = Alex Zanardi. That's WAY better, due to their unbelievable recoveries after their unlikely-to-survive wrecks. 294. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.04.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) the new cup team that mark green is going to attempt to debut with at richmond is not called blue ox racing, that's just the sponsor. the team's name is ss motorsports. 295. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.04.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) and for those asking / wondering how mark green came up with the sponsorship to run, he didn't. it was already the team's sponsor, they just hired green as the driver for this week. 296. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent list, but I have to defend Davey here. Especially his 1993 season. Yeah he had only won once at the time of his mid summer tragic passing, but he still spent most of the year either 2nd or 3rd in points. Yeah it was a distant 2nd or 3rd, but it was behind first ballott HOFers Earnhardt and Rusty in their primes in NASCAR's most stacked era so that is nothing to sneeze at. You also have to consider they had a slow start after an agonizing loss in the '92 Winston Cup title fight. Sound familiar? Not only was it perhaps the most brutal loss in Cup championship history, it was a season full of awful injuries (which prevented him not only from winning it that year, but walk away with it) and emotional anguish when his grandfather, who was his best friend, died early in the year then got blindsided by the incredibly tragic passing of his brother. The fact he wasn't having a worse hangover speaks a lot to his talent and fortitude. And they were coming together at the time of his death, remember he would have won his last race at Loudon had Michael Waltrip's hubcap not came off (this was back when they threw debris cautions cause there was actualy debris out there). Can you imagine had he won his last race before his passing? And this still doesn't change the fact he had 18 wins in his first 6 seasons in the era before rookies made huge impacts. And this was on a team with insanely talented team, but initially financially unstable leading to inconsistency. Davey Allison is a legend and absolutely would have won multiple championships. You cannot convince me otherwise. 297. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One other thing: speaking of open wheel. I know the big debate in American open wheel history is Foyt or Andretti. Just looking at their numbers, am I the only one who clearly sees Foyt as being better? I don't know much about their histories, so I will have to defer to people who know something about open wheel and its history. 298. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave #38 Fan, Mark Green was sponsored by Blue Ox in the Nationwide Series in 2009 and 2010 when driving for ML Motorsports and Jay Robinson Racing, so he has a history and working relationship with that company. 299. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One other thing: speaking of open wheel. I know the big debate in American open wheel history is Foyt or Andretti. Just looking at their numbers, am I the only one who clearly sees Foyt as being better? I don't know much about their histories, so I will have to defer to people who know something about open wheel and its history." Depends on whether you have an oval or road course skew, for the most part. People who believe oval racing is superior or have an extreme fixation on marquee races (you know who you are) are always going to say Foyt because he won Indy more often, more races, and more titles. People who care more about road courses would probably pick Andretti since he dominated in USAC and CART (but then Foyt's backers would say he struggled in CART because he was mostly an owner-driver by then). The American fans would tend to pick Foyt; the foreign fans would tend to pick Andretti. The USAC/IRL fans would tend to pick Foyt; the CART fans would tend to pick Andretti... Not that Foyt COULDN'T drive a road course of course. He won the 24 Hours of Le Mans and 24 Hours of Daytona (which Andretti didn't - Andretti only won a 6 hour sports car race there). I THINK Andretti's Formula One title trumps that, and I also think he'd have more IndyCar wins than Foyt if he had focused solely on IndyCar in the '70s rather than focusing mostly on Formula One. I think most people would agree with you on Foyt here (since it's an American, NASCAR-skewing site), but I personally would rate Andretti higher as I think he was marginally more diverse. ONE of the reasons I find Davey overrated is people always say "it was an era rookies couldn't win". The only reason for that is that it was an era when rookies weren't given CARS that could win. Who's to say Tim Richmond, Harry Gant, Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, Mark Martin, Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, etc... couldn't have won twice if they had a car with that much horsepower in their rookie season? Hell, maybe even Dale Jarrett could have done it. Because of his name recognition, he had a MAJOR advantage that he got to start in a top ride and all the rest of those other drivers didn't, and I don't think he overachieved enough to justify the hype. I don't see 1993 as a hangover, I see it as a choke. I certainly don't see '92 as a Davey choke (he was injured repeatedly). And you can't deny that if Junior had died in a plane crash in the 2004-05 offseason that the same overblown hype would be said about him, and I think he's proven he wouldn't have lived up to THAT kind of hype. Only three rookies between Davey and Stewart theoretically had equipment capable of winning: Jeff Gordon (he kind of choked early in his career), Mike Skinner (if Earnhardt couldn't win, Skinner not winning is forgivable), and Kenny Irwin (flat-out failure before his death). And very few rookies before Davey had ever had equipment like that... That's the main reason I find him overrated. It would be like if Junior had started in the #48 with Jimmie Johnson, Kyle Busch, and Denny Hamlin starting in Ganassi and Evernham cars... 300. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't see 1993 as a hangover, I see it as a choke." I see it as a choke because I really think UNINJURED Davey should have kicked as much butt as he did in 1991 and 1992. Jeff Gordon did in 1997, after all... 301. 10andJoe posted: 09.04.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And it's official: Joey to the #22. I know The Captain works in mysterious ways, but you've got to wonder what he sees that we don't. One thing's for sure though: if Sliced Bread doesn't produce, and fast, for Penske, he's toast. 302. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I agree that Mario was slightly ahead of A.J. for the factors you mentioned, but you failed to mention some other things. First, Mario actually won the Daytona 500 five years before A.J. did (and they each won it with the same engine builder, Waddell Wilson), and thus was three years ahead of Foyt in winning both the Indianapolis 500 and Daytona 500. The big trump card that Mario had on A.J. was that he was a better road racer, though ironically, Foyt won the two major road course races that Andretti never won, the 24 Hours of LeMans (in his only attempt in 1967) and the 24 Hours of Daytona, which bookended his career. Andretti is listed as an oficial winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona, but as you mentioned, that race was cut to 6 hours in 1972, due to the looming energy crisis that forced that event to be cancelled completely in 1974. As for IndyCar racing, I would put Foyt ahead of Andretti, as Foyt won six titles and 67 races, while Andretti won four titles and 53 races, but overall, I rank Andreti ahead of Foyt by the slimmest of margins. you also mention why Foyt never won a race under CART sanction. There were several reasons behind that. You mention one, that he was a team owner, but he never liked CART from the start, not joining until 1982. Then there was the fact hat he was 47 years old when he joined CART. And then of course, his focus on racing nosedived after his father's passing in 1983, after which he rarely contended until he hired Robby Gordon a decade later. There were also times, such as when he ran in the 1985 Southern 500 at Darlington, where Foyt skipped races on the CART circuit to run in major NASCAR races. And as for your statement about Davey Allison getting a quality ride because of his name, and that he had it easy. He never had it easy. Bobby Allison saw to that. Bobby wanted Davey to work as hard as he had to, and as a result, he actually had to work up through the ranks, which he did. Davey's big break came in 1986, when Junior Johnson asked him to drive the #12 car at the Talladega 500 when Neil Bonnett got hurt at Pocono. Davey did and finished fifth in the attrition-marred affair. That performance got Harry Ranier's atention, and when Cale Yarborough decided to form his own team in 1987, Davey got the call, and won twice in limited duty in 1987. And 1993 was, in no way, a choke, as far as Davey struggling that year before his tragic death. In fact, all the Ford teams struggled that year. Davey's only win was at Richmond, Junior Johnson's team went winless for the first time ever, and more than half the season went by before Bill Elliott ever led a lap that year. Bud Moore's team also struggled, scoring their only win that season, and their final win at Sonoma with Geoff Bodine. Then Bodine left just past mid-season to drive the #7 car, putting Lake Speed, who had also driven the #28 car in a couple of races after Davey's death, in the #15 car for the end of 1993. Mark Martin also struggled the first half of that season, going winless before catching fire, courtesy of a huge break at Watkins Glen. The Wood Brothers won at Atlanta early that year, but also struggled more than they did at any point during which Morgan Shepherd drove for them (Shepehrd's tenure was by far the most successful for any driver they had when they ran the full circuit from 1985-2008). And those were the five main Ford teams at that time. In addition to that, there was the plane crash that took reigning NASCAR champion Alan Kulwicki's life on April Fools night near Bristol, where the series was racing that weekend, and having Jimmy Hensley drive tht car didn't do Ford any favors, either. But the bottom line was that the GM teams simply had a big advantage over the Ford teams in 1993. 303. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Davey had it easy relative to Tim Richmond, Harry Gant, Ricky Rudd, Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, Mark Martin, Neil Bonnett, etc... in my mind...his other contemporaries. Certainly relative to modern drivers who had even BETTER cars from day one, he did not have it easy, but it took several of those other guys 3-5 years before getting a big time ride, and that's why his stats look better. The same could be said about Earnhardt and Junior in the beginning. Earnhardt wanted Junior to prove himself on his own AT FIRST before hiring him for the DEI Busch ride, but after that (as with Davey at Ranier) he was home free... I was talking strictly about Cup anyway. He got a big-time Cup ride before most of his peers did. He certainly showed more grit going up the ladder than anybody does now, and I don't deny that. Okay, you've got a point that Chevy was doing better than Ford for most of 1993, but I still think it makes him look bad that Irvan had a more dominant season from taking over the #28 to his Michigan crash than Davey EVER DID. Maybe it's just that the #28 suddenly improved in the second half of the season like the #6 did, but Irvan just gets spat upon by everyone (not as badly as Geoff Bodine or Ricky Rudd usually do, but still...) I agree that's probably the most correct argument for Andretti vs. Foyt. Mario spent too much of his prime (basically the entire '70s) not focusing on IndyCar and racing other series, so he's more versatile but not as successful as an IndyCar driver (and Mario racing all over the place is also the reason he's not in the discussion as a top ten Formula One driver either...) 304. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And here's a historical note. With Matt Kenseth moving to the #20 car next year, he will become just the third driver since 1974 to attempt to defend a Daytona 500 crown with a team other than the one he won thae Daytona 500 with the previous year. The other two were Buddy Baker and Ryan Newman. Baker won the 1980 Daytona 500 while driving for Harry Ranier, but drove in the 1981 race for Hoss Ellington, and Newman won the 2008 Daytona 500 for Roger Penske, but drove in the 2009 race with Stewart-Haas Racing. Five drivers that won the Daytona 500 from it's inception in 1959 drove for teams other than the ones they one the 500 with the following year. They were Marvin Panch, Fireball Roberts, Tiny Lund, Pete Hamilton, and A.J. Foyt. Panch won the 1961 Daytona 500 driving for Smokey Yunick, but drove in the '62 race for Bob Osiecki. Like Panch in '61, Roberts also scored is daytona 500 win for Smokey Yuick in 1962, but ran the '63 race for Banjo Matthews. Lund won that 1963 Daytona 500 for the Wood Brothers filling for Panch, but drove in the '64 Daytona 500 for Graham Shaw. Pete Hamilton won the 1970 Daytona 500 for Petty Enterprises, but drove in the '71 race for Cotton Owens, and Foyt, like Tiny Lund in 1963, scored his 1972 Daytona 500 win for the Wood Brothers, but drove his own car in 1973. Of those five drivers, only Foyt (fourth in 1973) and Lund (11th in 1964) finished the race the year after their victories. 305. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again, with all due respect, I don't see how being behind only Earnhardt and Rusty in their primes is a "choke". It is hard to put together more than 2 quality seasons in a row in any era in NASCAR. Throw in the letdown that most teams suffer a letdown after a tough points loss. I'd say he was doing alright. He was doing a hell of a lot better than Bill (due mostly to Junior firing Tim Brewer and his regime for purely personal reasons related to his divorce from Flossie at the time) but still. And again, they were coming together so I am pretty confident Davey would have won those races Ernie won. And we can't forget Ernie was a REALLY good race car driver, and was just finally beginning to put the consistency together, so it isn't like a scrub jumped in and did good. Had Ernie not been critically injured, he would have been a gigantic thorn in the side of Dale, Rusty, and Jeff for the 90's. 306. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It sounds like JGR is planning on running three full-time Nationwide cars for Elliott Sadler, Brian Vickers, and Ryan Truex in 2013. No deals are finalized for either of those three, but that's the direction they're going in. Also, their goal is to have a 4th full-time Cup car by 2014, possibly with Sadler or Vickers as the driver. As for Penske Racing, they're trying to work out a deal with SKF and Alliance Truck Parts to sponsor Sam Hornish, Jr. in a 3rd full-time Cup car for next season. 307. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nothing against Davey. I like him. I think he was a great driver. I think his hype from some people is insane, that's all. People talk about him like he was going to win 100 races and be the guy who WOULD HAVE STOPPED JEFF GORDON (and they're serious about this, like he's an Earnhardt level talent or something...) I'm just annoyed people are selling other drivers short, but probably the more considerate argument is to talk other non-champions up rather than talking him down... 308. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes, I totally agree that Elliott and Brewer were the real chokers. Without bad runs in 4 of the 5 races before Atlanta, Elliott would have run away with the 1992 championship. I guess when I was discussing choking, it's in the context of other people talking about Davey being an 80 or 100 race winner when he was more like a Mark Martin-level talent... It's like people who say Kyle Busch is choking primarily because he should be doing more. I'm saying Davey Allison is choking because people put him on a pedestal that's considerably higher than his actual results. Still, yeah, not the best argument. 309. Sean posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Um, was choking. He wasn't choking in terms of his actual talent level but when people talk about him like he's a top 10 all-time driver when he's more like a 30th best driver historically... By the standards of a top 10 all-time driver, his 1993 would not be an impressive season following up his previous two seasons... Well, I think I've finally made my point...albeit embarrassing myself yet AGAIN... 310. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It sounds like the deal between Furniture Row Racing and Kurt Busch fell apart after Dodge announced they were pulling out of NASCAR. Apparently there's been a few rumblings around the garage area involving him going to RCR, but I doubt that will happen simply because there's just no room. It looks like his only hope is to replace Aric Almirola at RPM, otherwise I think he may be out of a Cup ride for 2013. 311. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It is hard to put together more than 2 quality seasons in a row in any era in NASCAR." DSFF, are you saying Davey Allison and Carl Edwards are more similar than we give them credit for. 312. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I don't see how you figure how Davey Allison had it much easier than a few of the others you mentioned. I agree that he had it easier in Cup than Rudd, Gant, Martin, and even Bill Elliott, but I can't disagree with you any more about Richmond. Remember that Richmond actually began in IndyCars, and in his first attempt at Indy in 1980, he had a car capable of winning the pole until he crashed it, and ran with the leaders for a good portion of the race before running out of fuel and finishing ninth. He struggled in 1981 because, much as has been the case with Danica Patrick until this year, he didn't know what he wanted to run, but when Jim Stacy gave him the #2 car during the 1982 season, he promptly won both races at Riverside, which gave him the ride with Blue Max Racing for 1983, as Raymond Beadle bought M.C. Anderson's highly successful team. But Davey was struggling as well when Junior Johnson asked him to drive the #12 car at the 1986 Talladega 500, where he ran a conservative race and finished fifth in a race marred by attrition. That got Harry Ranier's attention, and when Cale Yarborough left to form his own team for 1987, Davey got the #28 ride, and proved he belonged, winning at Talladega (over Junior Johnson's car ironically) and Dover. But Bobby made sure that Davey worked to get to the top, which I think made him a better driver than he would have been, because he had to work for it. But also, by the time that Ernie Irvan got in the #28 car, Ford had become much more competitve, as evidenced by Mark Martin's four-race winning streak. Irvan got in the #28 car right in the middle of that, and won twice, setting up his run at the 1994 championship, which was sadly cut short. One of those wins was at Martinsville, where neither Davey or his father ever won, and at Charlotte in one of the most dominant displays ever on a speedway, when he led all but six laps in a 500-mile race. But the #28 was probably the top Ford team in the first half of 1993, even showing up as high as second in points after the 13th race, but they were far behind the GM teams until the halfway point. 313. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.04.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nothing against Davey. I like him. I think he was a great driver. I think his hype from some people is insane, that's all. People talk about him like he was going to win 100 races and be the guy who WOULD HAVE STOPPED JEFF GORDON (and they're serious about this, like he's an Earnhardt level talent or something...) I'm just annoyed people are selling other drivers short, but probably the more considerate argument is to talk other non-champions up rather than talking him down..." I agree. I like Davey too but he is put higher then he should be. People have a history of selling others short (hate, #'s, attitude, what else have you). I respect Davey greatly, but he didn't do enough while he was with us to be put were some people have him. He did alot in a short time but it isn't enough to be put were some people have him. 314. murb posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see you guys are debating some of the older Cup drivers now. So, let's keep this comparison game going. Current Cup Guys and Old School Cup Guys Jimmie Johnson = David Pearson (Smoothest guys around.) Jeff Gordon = Bobby Allison (Somebody recently made this comparison and I thought it was perfect.) Tony Stewart = Dale Earnhardt (This one might be a little controversial, but as far as a pure leader in the garage goes, Tony is the closest thing we currently have to Big E. Similar driving abilities too. Both of them had ill luck in the 500 too, which is another thing to look at.) Brad Keselowski = Ernie Irvan (Both were considered "too out of control/wild" once they first entered the Series, but both calmed down and turned into fantastic drivers. If you carefully watch Brad's career over the next few years, I really think it will be similar to how Ernie's would have been if he hadn't gotten hurt.) Kyle Busch = Tim Richmond (I had a hard time coming up with someone to pair Kyle with, but I think I'll go with Richmond. Both of them are considered lightning rods for attention, and their driving styles seem to be pretty similar.) Matt Kenseth = Terry Labonte (Consistency machines.) Kevin Harvick = Ricky Rudd (I understand that Kevin is one of the streakiest guys around, and that Ricky once had an annual win rate of like 15 years, but both of them have incredible versatility and can win on all types of tracks. Plus, Ricky never won a championship. And I don't see Kevin winning one either as long as he is in RCR's system.) Dale Earnhardt Jr = Kyle Petty (Absolutely perfect match in my eyes. Two sons of famous fathers. They both have had really good careers but they both look like junk compared to the aforementioned famous fathers.) Clint Bowyer = Ken Schrader (The Hendrick version of Schrader that was capable of winning races on driver's tracks like Dover and Atlanta. Plus, they're both dirt racers, and they've both got funny as hell personalities.) Carl Edwards = Bill Elliott (Carl is the face of Ford in the 2000s and 2010s just as Bill was the face of Ford in the 1980s and early 1990s. Both of them have most of their success on 1 mile or bigger tracks. The only thing is that Carl's driving style is much more aggressive than Bill's.) 315. 18fan posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact that Ernie contended for wins in 1998 in the #36 car proves his talent. I know the numbers show that he had no top 5s, but he dominated at Michigan and could've easily won if Ryan Pemberton didn't decide to put two tires on his car under green. Plus he was one of the few guys who could run with Mark Martin's dominant car in the fall Charlotte race that year before he got taken out by Dick Trickle. I think his relatively poor performance in 1997 was down to losing Larry McReynolds, who he really succeeded with. And watching him run circles around everybody at Sonoma in 1994 was incredible. From the very start nobody was in his league. 316. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i think it would be better for gibbs to have his nns lineup be sadler in the #18 full-time and either truex, or hopefully mcdowell in the #11 full-time, and have truex and wallace jr. split the #20; of course, they said today that, naturally, they will have cup drivers kenseth and hamlin run a majority of the races in the third nns car. ugh. when will gibbs ever stop running cup drivers in his nns cars? 317. Jordan posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Ward Burton won a Daytona 500 and twice at Darlington, among other races. I would definitely consider those to be marquee wins that some really great drivers are lucky if they ever get. 318. David posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon = Bobby Allison" How is this comparison perfect? 319. Talon64 posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin becomes the 1st driver to win back-to-back races in 2012 with his 21st career Sprint Cup Series win (ties him with Jeff Burton, Bobby Labonte, Benny Parsons and Jack Smith for 31st all time) and series-leading 4th win of the season (4+ wins in 3 of the last 4 seasons). It's the 2nd time in his career that he's won back-to-back Cup races (Pocono and Michigan in June of 2010). His 8 podium finishes this season tie Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson for the most. Hamlin leads 100+ laps in a race for the 16th time in his career; he has 8 wins, 2 runner-up finishes and a 5.1 average finish when he does so. Atlanta becomes the 12th different track that Denny Hamlin's won at (out of 23 he's competed at), and 5th on a 1.5 mile track (all since 2010). It's just his 2nd top 5 in 13 career Atlanta starts (16.2 avg fin), despite leading 296 laps over the last 7 races there (2nd most over that stretch). After finishing no better than 4th in the first 20 races of 2012, Jeff Gordon has 3 top 3 finishes in the last 5 races (11.0 avg fin, thanks to finishes of 21st and 28th). It's Gordon's 62nd career runner-up finish and first since the 2011 Brickyard 400. Gordon has back-to-back top 2 finishes at Atlanta for the first time since finishing 2nd and 1st in both races in 2003, and it's his 10th top 2 finish in 39 career starts there (11.9 avg fin). His 16 top 5's there rank 8th all time, and 25 top 10's rank 7th. Through 25 races, Brad Keselowski equals his top 5's (10) and top 10's (14) from all of 2011. Since 2011, his 20 top 5's rank T-4th and 28 top 10's rank T-10th. It's his 3rd podium finish in the last 4 races and 6th of 2012 (T-4th). It's BraKes' 2nd straight top 6 finish at Atlanta and his first top 5 there in 4 starts (17.5 avg fin). Martin Truex Jr.'s made his 250th career Cup start, and his 14th top 10 of the season ties his career high from back in 2007. It's his 7th straight finish of 11th or better (2 top 5's, 5 top 10's, 8.1 avg fin). It's Truex Jr.'s first top 5 in 14 Atlanta starts (3 top 10's, 21.5 avg fin), despite leading more laps there than any other track (247). Kevin Harvick ends an 11-race top 5 drought with his 5th place finish. It's just his 3rd top 10 in the last 12 races, although he's finished worse than 16th just once (13.5 avg fin). Harvick now has 10+ top 10's in 10 of his 12 seasons in Cup (184 top 10's since 2001 ranks him 5th among all drivers). Harvick won and finished 2nd in his first 2 career Atlanta starts. He then went 11 races with no top 10's and a best finish of 19th, but now has top 15 finishes in all but 1 of his last 9 races there (3 top 5's, 6 top 10's, 10.6 avg fin). With 3 top 10's and an 8.0 average finish in the last 4 races, Kyle Busch has moved up from 15th to 12th in the standings. It's his first stand-alone top 10 and just his 4th overall in 15 career Atlanta starts (1 win, 3 top 5's, 16.9 avg fin). But that includes 2 in the last 3 races. Paul Menard sets a new career-high with his 3rd straight top 10 finish (just 4 in the first 22 races of 2012). He also has finishes of 14th or better in 8 of the last 9 races (11.9 avg fin, 7th in points scored without the 25 point penalty). His 3 top 10's at Atlanta are tied with Daytona and Bristol for his most at any track (20.4 avg fin in 11 starts). Matt Kenseth picks up just his 2nd top 10 in the last 7 races, and he hasn't finished better than 8th over that span (18.6 avg fin, 17th in points scored). But Kenseth's finished 13th or better in each of his last 13 Atlanta starts (6 top 5's, 9 top 10's, 7.4 avg fin). Mark Martin finishes in the top 10 for just the 2nd time in his last 9 starts. It's also just his 3rd top 10 in his last 11 Atlanta starts (22.7 avg fin). It's the 444th top 10 of his career. Sam Hornish Jr.'s 11th place finishes improves his average finish in the #22 to 19.0 in 8 starts; AJ Allmendinger had a 20.6 avg fin driving the #22 in the first 17 races of the season. Tony Stewart earned his 14th career Cup pole, becoming the 3rd driver in 2012 whose career poles match their car # (Denny Hamlin with 11, Mark Martin with 55). It's the 3rd time that Stewart's finished outside of the top 20 when he's started from pole. 320. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the record, I have Davey Allison outside the top 30 drivers in the history of NASCAR's top series, and always have. Allison won 19 races, which was 10% of his starts, but finished in the top ten less than half the time. That's not the mark of a driver that would even be in the top 20 all-time. The win percentage would certainly be ng the elite, but not the top 5 and 10 percentage. And despite having some of the fastest cars on the circuit, Davey only won 14 pole positions, though you can't count that against him. After all, Tony Stewart's pole at Atlanta was just his 14th, and he has 47 wins and three championships in NASCAR's top series to his name. Now I had predicted before his death that he might pass his father's win total, because he had 19 wins at age 32, an incredibly high number at that time, but most of his wins were on superspeedways (3 at Talladega, and 2 each at Daytona, Michigan, and Charlotte), though he did have wins at three of the four short tracks on which he competed (like his father, Martinsville was the exception), the mile track at Dover, and the controversial win at Sonoma, so Allison was an all-around driver, but he didn't seem like a driver that was capable of dominating on all kinds of tracks. 321. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David (#318), the Jeff Gordon/Bobby Allison comparison is a great one because, like Allison was, Gordon is a "jack of all tracks and a master of none". Allison won 85 races at NASCAR's highest level, but never won more than seven at any one track. As of now, that is also true of Gordon. Gordon has 86 Cup wins, but like Allison, at no track does he have more than seven wins. But when he won at Pocono, that became the fifth track on which he has at least six wins, and there are four other tracks on which has has five wins, and there are still four others where he has four wins. I would call that being a "jack of all tracks", as he has four or more wins at no less than 12 different tracks on the circuit, plus Rockingham, where he also won four times. But as he has not accumulated a current wins percentage of his career total on any track of 10% (his seven wins at both Darlington and Martinsville each count for just 8.14% of his career total), he's not really a master of any one track. Add that to the fact that before Gordon, no driver won more of the sport's biggest races than Bobby Allison (Allison won each of the four crown jewels the sport had when he competed at least three times), and the comparison is obvious. The only significant difference between their careers is that Gordon has four championships to Allison's one. 322. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The list of people who have put together 3 or more really good seasons in a row is pretty short. Lets have a look: 3 in a row Lee Petty: 1953 (2nd in points, 2nd most wins), 1954 (champion, 2nd most wins), 1955 (3rd in points, 2nd most wins) Rex White: 1960 (most wins, champion), 1961 (most wins, 2nd in points), 1962 (2nd most wins and 5th in points despite 13 less races than the top guys) Joe weatherly: 1961 (most wins, 4th in points), 1962 (champion, most wins), 1963 (champion) Richard Petty: 1962 (2nd most wins, 2nd in points), 1963 (most wins, 2nd in points), 1964 (champion, 2nd most wins) Bobby Isaac: 1968 (2nd in points), 1969 (most wins), 1970 (champion, 2nd most wins) Bobby Allison: 1970 (2nd in points in Rossi's Dodge), 1971 (2nd most wins in Holman Moody's Mercury), 1972 (most wins, 2nd in points in Junior's Chevy) Cale Yarborough: 1976-1978 (any explanation necessary?) Darrell Waltrip: 1977 (2nd most wins, 4th in points), 1978 (2nd most wins, 3rd in points), 1979 (most wins, 2nd in points) Bobby Allison: 1981 (2nd most wins, 2nd in points), 1982 (2nd most wins, 2nd in points), 1983 (tied for most wins, 2nd in points Holy Shit! He won the championship!) Dale Earnhardt: 1993 (champion, 2nd most wins), 1994 (champion, 2nd most wins), 1995 (2nd in points, 2nd most wins) Tony Stewart: 2000 (most wins), 2001 (2nd in points), 2002 (champion) Now for the even more rare 4 in a row club: Herb Thomas: 1951 (champion, 2nd most wins), 1952 (tied for most wins, 2nd in points), 1953 (champion, most wins), 1954 (most wins, 2nd in points) Richard Petty: 1974 (champion and most wins), 1975 (most wins by NINE and biggest blowout in Latford history), 1976 (2nd in points), 1977 (2nd in points) 5 in a row: Ned Jarrett: 1961 (champion), 1962 (3rd in points, 3 most wins), 1963 (2nd most wins, 4th in points), 1964 (most wins, 2nd in points), 1965 (champion, tied for most wins) Jeff Gordon: 1995 (champion and most wins), 1996 (most wins, 2nd in points), 1997 (champion, most wins, Winston Million), 1998 (an alright season), 1999 (most wins) Jimmie Johnson: 2006-2010 (you might have heard a thing or two about this stretch) Wait, we're not done, 6 in a row: Darrell Waltrip: 1981 (champion, most wins), 1982 (copy and paste), 1983 (tied for most wins, 2nd in points), 1984 (most wins by a mile), 1985 (champion), 1986 (2nd in points in a lame duck season with the vengeful Junior Johnson) Dale Earnhardt: 1986 (champion, 2nd most wins, most laps led), 1987 (champion by a mile, most wins by a mile, most laps led by a mile), 1988 (3rd most wins, 3rd in points, most laps led), 1989 (2nd most wins, 2nd in points, most laps led), 1990 (champion, most wins, most laps led), 1991 (champion nowletsmoveon) And now for the top of the top, SEVEN in a row. Only one person Richard Petty: 1966 (2nd most wins, 3rd in points), 1967 (an alright season), 1968 (tied for most wins, 2nd in points), 1969 (2nd in points, 3rd most wins), 1970 (most wins), 1971 (champion, most wins by TEN), 1972 (champion, 2nd most wins) So we can't penalize Davey for being unable to put 3 great seasons together before his 33rd birthday. Look at some of the legends missing from that list. Pearson is hard to rank here cause he only ran the full schedule 4 times ('64, '66, '68, and '69) the last 3 were championships. Of his partial seasons, only '73, '74, and '76 would have made my list. Bill is missing (his great seasons were '85, '87, '88, and '92) as is Rusty ('88, '89, '93, '94). They couldn't put 3 together either. And I absolutely refuse to acknowledge Buck Baker's '55-'58 which would have made it. So cut Davey a break for '93. What about Dale and Rusty in '92? 323. murb posted: 09.04.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How is this comparison perfect?" cjs just made some good points about it on post 321. I was debating whether or not to compare Jeff with Richard Petty, but to me the stats that he has with Allison are better comparable. 324. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I would call Jeff a master of all trades. With the exception of closing seasons out, name me one area where Jeff ranks as even "mediocre". 325. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the reason I call Jeff Gordon a jack of all tracks and a master of none, is that, like Bobby Allison, there's no track where he statistically dominates the win column. Seven wins, which he has at both Darlington and Martinsville, represent only 8.14% of his overall win total of 86, and the same was true of Bobby Allison. Allison never won more than seven times at any track, either. Compare that to Dale Earnhardt, who scored 11.8% of his wins at three different tracks (Darlington, Bristol, and Atlanta), and another 13.1% at Talladega, or Darrell Waltrip, who scored a similar percentage of his wins at three tracks, including Bristol, where he notched fully one-seventh of his career wins (12 of 84). In those cases, Waltrip and Earnhardt were truly masters of those particular tracks. That can not currently be said about Gordon, but he's spread his wins almost evenly across so many different tracks (seven at two tracks, six at three, five at four, and four at four), and at all kinds of tracks, that I consider him a jack of all tracks, but since he doesn't have an overwhelming win total at any one track, I also don't consider him a master of any tracks. Confusing, to say the least, but the fact that Gordon is a jack of all tracks and a master of none may end up being the greatest tribute of all to his career. 326. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I'm not mistaken, Gordon has the highest different track win percentage in NASCAR history. He's won at 23 of the 25 tracks he's raced on in Cup (92%), including the no longer used Rockingham and North Wilkesboro. The only tracks he's never won that he's raced on are Homestead-Miami (best finish 3rd, 10 top tens in 13 starts) and Kentucky (best finish 5th, 2 top tens in 2 starts). He also has at least 10 top tens at every active track except for Watkins Glen (9), Kansas (9), Chicago (7), Las Vegas (7), and Kentucky (2); each of those tracks (up until this season with Kansas gaining a 2nd race) having only one date on the schedule. 327. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To make a slight correction, Jeff is the winningest driver of all time at Sonoma and Pocono, so you could say he is masters of those, especially since most of his wins at those tracks came when they still shifted at those tracks (for some reason they shifted at Pocono in both races last year and in 2010). 328. David posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @321 Cjs, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. If a driver wins multiple races at multiple tracks, does that diminish his status at one track that he has had much success? Example: Jeff Gordon won his 4th race at Darlington in the 1997 Southern 500, which was also his 28th career win there, which would classify him as a "master" under your standards at the time. Now he has 7 out of 86 wins there, which means he is no longer a "master". Doesn't really make sense to me. Now if you were to take total wins at a track out of total starts there, that would make much more sense. Jeff has 7 Darlington wins in 32 starts, which makes for a sturdy 21.875% win percentage. Sounds a lot more "masterful" now, doesn't it? 329. ch posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The number 0 team's name is not blue ox racing it's SS motorsports. They actually built the car out of mwr pieces in their garage! They are truly doing it the old fashioned way, and hopefully they'll make the race! Check their Facebook page guys, it's really amazing. They have been working on this one car in their backyard since April of 2011!! All I can say is WOW! 330. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon seems to be a jack of all trades when it comes to qualifying as well, earning at least one pole at 21 of the 25 tracks he's raced at, including Rockingham and North Wilkesboro (man, just imagine if those races were still on the schedule). The four tracks he doesn't have a pole at are Las Vegas (best start 2nd (twice) in 15 starts), Kansas (best start 2nd in 13 starts), Homestead (best start 5th (twice) in 13 starts), and Kentucky (best start 9th in 2 starts). He's most successful at winning poles at Charlotte (8), Martinsville (7), Bristol (5), Richmond (5), and Sonoma (5). Gordon has 71 career poles, which ranks him 3rd on the all-time pole winners list. He passed Cale Yarborough for 3rd at Talladega in April 2011. Only two active drivers are within 45 poles from him (Mark Martin with 55, Ryan Newman with 49). If you notice, the top 6 in the all-time wins list are also the top 6 in the all-time poles list (slightly different order). I know he was never the best qualifier, but I'm a little disappointed that Dale Earnhardt, who's ranked 7th on the all-time wins list, is in a tie for 22nd on the all-time poles list with 22 career poles, along with Ernie Irvan and Marvin Panch, two drivers whose careers lasted just over half as long as Earnhardt's career. In fact, Earnhardt is ranked behind such drivers as Kasey Kahne, Ricky Rudd, and both Labonte brothers in career poles. Hell, even that "Damn Yankee Bastard" has 15 more poles than Earnhardt. 331. 10andJoe posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >The number 0 team's name is not blue ox racing it's SS motorsports. Ninja'd by about, oh, 41 posts. 332. Paul posted: 09.04.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, I could be wrong, but I think they downshift at Pocono going into the tunnel turn and drive through the shortstretch in 3rd gear so they can accelerate faster down the very long frontstretch. I think one year Joe Nemechek in the mid-2000's lost 4th gear and still finished on the lead lap because everyone else was shifting and in 3rd gear a lot. Plus, not having to shift means you can drive deeper into the corners because you have less momentum than those who are in higher gear. And since drivers are slowing down to about 135-145 mph in the turns, only being in 3rd gear isn't as big a disadvantage as it sounds. 333. cjs3872 posted: 09.04.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well David, that all depends on what you use as a floor for career wins, and base it on that. In the case of Gordon now, I would use the 50-win plateau as a benchmark, and if a driver doesn't win at least 10-12% of his races wins at any particular track, I don't consider him a master of any track. Now if he gets to 100 wins, the percentage qualification drops to about 7%, but at 30 wins, it would be about 20-25%. But the fact that he has won so many times at so many different tracks adds to his legacy, instead of diminishes it. In fact, if given a choice, I'd rather be a jack of all tracks and a master of none like Gordon and Allison are rather than a guy that just domintes on a particular style of track as Bill Elliott and Darrell Waltrip did, or a small number of tracks like Dale Earnhardt did. But when a guy has as many wins as Gordon has, you would figure that there would be one track where he has overpowering success at, but he doesn't because of how good he is everywhere. For instance, David Pearson won 10 times at Darlington, nearly 10% of his total of 105 wins. Cale Yarborough won nine times at Bristol, more than 10% of his total of 83 wins. Yarborough also won nine times at Daytona officially, since his 1970 qualfying race victory also counted, as well as eight times at Michgan. And of course, Dale Earnhardt scored 37 of his 76 wins at just four tracks (10 at Talladega, 9 each at Atlanta, Bristol, and Darlington). That's just one less than half his entire total at just four tracks. Darrell Waltrip's totals in this regard are just as uneven, as of his 84 wins, 41 came at four short tracks (12 at Bristol, 11 at Martinsville, 10 at North Wilkesboro, and 8 at Nashville). Again, that's just one shy of half his career total at just four tracks. But Jeff Gordon and Bobby Allison spread out their wins much more evenly, with no more than seven for either driver at any track (in Gordon's case, to date), but this status of being a jack of all tracks and a master of none only adds to their greatness, in my opinion, instead of detracting from it, because you never knew when they would (or will) strike for a win, where as guys like Waltrip, Earnhardt, and even Yarborough and Pearson had their favorite tracks where they knew they could get fat at. Rusty Wallace is yet another example of this, as of his 55 wins, nine came at Bristol. That's over 16% of his wins coming at just one track, the highest rate for any driver with 50 or more wins, with another seven (nearly 13%) coming at Martinsville. 334. ch posted: 09.04.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha, kind of skipped over a few I guess! 335. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.04.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tony Stewart = Dale Earnhardt (This one might be a little controversial, but as far as a pure leader in the garage goes, Tony is the closest thing we currently have to Big E. Similar driving abilities too. Both of them had ill luck in the 500 too, which is another thing to look at.)" DSFF will proably disagree, but i agree also. Jeff Gordon is also the master of plate racing, he has 13 wins at Tona and Dega combined. 336. Daniel posted: 09.04.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #329, Yeah, I checked it out. Really old school. Pulling for them to make the race, but I doubt it'll happen. Old Ambrose car from his JTG days, and old Reutimann Domino's Pizza car, they've got some really dated equipment. 337. Ty (fourturns.blogspot.com) posted: 09.04.2012 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @213 -- actually, I'm a Jamie McMurray fan. Nice try 338. Ty (fourturns.blogspot.com) posted: 09.04.2012 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...and I hate Jeff Gordon because he's a giant prick. He's an absolute jerkoff to his fans (who make this sport what it is now) and is probably the luckiest driver I've ever seen. I got tired of seeing him dominate week in and week out and the same now applies to Jimmie Johnson. To have one driver dominate the sport year in and year out is bad for our sport. No one wants to see that. NASCAR would be much better off if Jimmie won like two titles, while drivers like Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch won the others. That's probably why most people hate Jimmie -- it's funny when he gets involved in a wreck (same applies to Gordon), the crowd cheers loudly. Also, I don't know how Chad Knaus, who has been fined and suspended numerous times, hasn't received a long ban from NASCAR -- I haven't seen any crew member get suspended or fined as much as Knaus has. Its ridiculous. So needless to say, I loathe Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson with a fiery passion -- the same goes for Kobe Bryant, Bill Belichick, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Tom Brady. And what do Gordon, Johnson, Belichick and A-Rod have in common? Cheaters. And for further use, Bill Elliott is my favorite driver of all-time with Jamie McMurray my current favorite and Carl Edwards in second. 339. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.04.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually agree Tony is the closest thing we currently have to Dale. Obviously Smoke's propensity to keep taking his head off his shoulders eliminates him from any historical comparisons, but when he is right, he can do things that remind me of Dale. Like Big E he has never held himself back from success just to avoid ruffling a single feather. Unlike Dale, he often goes too far and hurts himself but still. Also, like Dale, his driving alone can be worth the price of admission. Watching him at Homestead last year or Fontana this year when the rain started getting close putting on slidejob after slidejob was fun as hell to watch. But, as mentioned, the fact he has left so many wins and a few championships (including the '06 title which changed the course of NASCAR history) on the table mean he will never be in Dale's league. But he is still a legend. And I can compare each of his championships to one of Dale's. His '02 title was like Dale's '91 title. Each basically looked around in the stretch run and said "son of a bitch, nobody wants this thing but somebody has to be awarded the trophy, may as well be me". The less said about either the better. His '05 title would be like Dale in '93. Didn't have the most overall speed, but were rock solid week in and week out, pretty much wearing their competitors into the ground (Rusty for Dale in '93 and JJ in '05 for Smoke). And 2011 was 1990 all the way. Going against a Roush team seemingly immune to bad luck, a stone cold lock for a Top 5 every week, but having trouble getting to victory lane, they used the brute power of winning and employed psychological ploys which worked to perfection to rip the Cup right out of Jack's tiny hands. 340. BON GORDON posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ty (post 338), how should I put this kindly. All I have to say is, you're one of those people. Negative, hating someone you really shouldn't cause you have nothing to do with him or his life, and making false accusations you have no backing on except what you think is the truth. I don't hate any driver. I never have and I never will. Yeah I get sick of seeing Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch win but it's there job to go out and win. Youre not at the race track and you don't know they cheat. However, I know every team and driver in the history of NASCAR has cheated at one point or another. Alot of teams and drivers have a lot more than the #24 team. Back in the 1940's, 50's, and 60's cheating was happening on a regular basis in NASCAR. People like you make me sick. I've met Jeff a few times and he's a very kind down to earth man. He is a humanitarian, a great father, husband, and a great leader of NASCAR. He should be more polular and respected than he he already is. Honestly I wouldn't be a popular celebrity or driver cause I wouldn't want to sign autographs and/or be with the fans. I'd wanna be left alone. And um it takes a lot of luck in NASCAR to be succsessful. Oh and by the way it took a lot of luck for Bill Elliott to win the Southern 500 in 1985 and that Million dollar bonus. He was good but would he have won if not for Dale Earnhardt and Cale Yarborough's problems....that's an example of good luck even though he had the fastest cars in 1985. I like Bill but you drew first blood. 341. murb posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've got some more that I thought of... Ryan Newman = Buddy Baker (Two guys who got up on the wheel and drove flat out. Both were outstanding qualifiers, as Newman is right up towards the top of the active poles list and Buddy had some seasons where he won 5-7 poles. Two Daytona 500 winners as well. Even though I don't think Buddy was as snakebit as Newman seems to be on those tracks.) Jamie McMurray = Sterling Marlin (Not great drivers, but both are definitely worth remembering. Sterling was a two time 500 champion who still could win on other tracks like Darlington and Charlotte. Jamie is another 500 winner who has wins at other tracks like Indy and Charlotte. Like I said, both aren't frequent winners, but they will be remembered as guys who could step up to the plate in big races.) Kurt Busch = Geoff Bodine (Now, this one might seem a little head scratching. But both have this versatility that match up well to each other. Bodine won on drivers tracks such as Martinsville, Pocono, and North Wilkesboro. It's been pointed out on here before that if Geoff had come through a different generation and didn't have to deal with Dale, Rusty, and DW, he might have been a champion. I just think if you were to stick Kurt in the exact same rides as Geoff during the exact same time, he would post similar numbers based solely on driving ability. Plus, Geoff kind of backslid out of his Cup career in the late 90s, a lot like what Kurt seems to be doing now. I don't know, let me know what you guys think.) 342. cjs3872 posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru WRX STi, Gordon has 12 plate wins, not 13. He has six at Daytona and six at Talladega. But Gordon has not been a factor at the plate tracks since Hendrick Motorsports started, as a group, adopting the "go to the back and wait for the end" strategy on a regular basis, particularly at Talladega. And Ty (#337-338), I hate to break it to you, but Bill Elliott's team was also cheating in the mid 80s. They had found a way to pressurize the fuel flow in such a way that they were getting fuel to either the cylinders or the carburetor through pressurization, and unless I'm mistaken, that's illegal. And Dan Elliott even admitted they were doing that on Wind Tunnel a few years ago. That gave them a big (and if that's true, an illegal) horsepower advantage. And there have always been questions about the legality of those cars because it was thought, though never proven that they ran 7/8 scale cars on the superspeedways in 1985. In fact, for the 1985 Winston 500, Terry Labonte qualified third, and was something like 7 MPH slower than Elliott, and of course, Elliott made up more than one lap under green to catch and pass the leaders to win that race. Many people think it was two laps, but Elliott made up that other lap through the sequencing of pit stops, so he really didn't make up that second lap through sheer speed. And Ty, if you believe what you're saying, then Richard Petty, Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip, and Dale Earnhardt weren't good for the sport either. To me, that point is just ludicrous. If there was nobody dominating the sport, the other teams wouldn't have anybody to use as a benchmark. In all sports, you need a dominating figure for the others to measure themselves against. Sure it can get monotonous to watch the same team win all the time, but that's what makes it fun to see someone else come up and challenge the giants of the sport. Just look at what's happening in MLB this year. The Washington Nationals, Baltimore Orioles, Oakland A's, and Pittsburgh Pirates have all been down for many years, but all are either in contention, or even leading their divisions. I must admit, something was missing in MLB when the Yankees were down for about 15 years, and the same was true when the Boston Celtics weren't competitive in the NBA, and that same something has been missing in the NFL with the Oakland Raiders down for so long. You need the bullies on the block for sports to be exciting, because then it really means something for one of the traditional lightweights to come up and challenge the big bullies. Another classic case was about 15-18 years ago when Northwestern, the ultimate doormats, actually won the Big Ten championship in football. If there are no heavyweights in sports (i.e., the Yankees, Celtics, Lakers, Raiders, Cowboys, Steelers, etc.), it doesn't mean quite as much when those traditionally lower in the pecking order rise up and steal a championship, or at least contend for one. 343. Jordan posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny Hamlin, Kyle Busch, and Carl Edwards haven't had what it takes to be champions. Jimmie Johnson HAS. In other sports, even if people are rooting against dynasties, they tune in to watch them because you truly get the feeling you're watching the best of the best. If we had a different champion every year, wouldn't it water down what it means to really be a champion? It's not something just any driver should be able to claim. The three drivers you mentioned all have flaws that keep them from being elite drivers. Parity is not good in individual sports at all, look at golf. After Woods took time off for his indiscretions, no one stepped up, a different guy won the tournament every week and thus no one became established as a "new star," you only had golfers become noticed within the golfing community. Even if people don't watch NASCAR, they know who Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, and Matt Kenseth are. Those drivers are truly elite. Hamlin is the definition of "streaky," Kyle Busch hasn't completely translated his lower-level success to Cup and is overshadowed on his own team (now by two drivers), and Edwards is a good year, bad year driver to an extent. If these guys can have sustained success like Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, and Kenseth have had, then they can also establish themselves as stars. Ultimately, people live to see records. If Johnson wins his sixth title this year and is leading points at Miami in 2013, that may be one of the most-watched races of all time. People in general don't like Johnson because he's not the stereotypical "good-old-boy Southerner," but they at least respect his abilities and know he is a legend in the sport. Anyway, who is a "good-old-boy southerner" anymore anyway? Hamlin? Possibly. Not Earnhardt, he's a liberal and if that was widely known about him, I bet 75% his fans would be gone within a week. It's my belief that Dale Jarrett is the last truly great southern driver as of now and we'll have to see if that changes in the future. What's not good for NASCAR, in the eyes of the traditional fanbase, is not Jimmie Johnson dominating, it's that the dominant driver is an "outsider." If Dale Earnhardt Jr. was the one with 5 championships, interest would be at an all -time high. It's not up to Johnson to play down to everyone else or NASCAR to keep changing the playing field (as they have made a habit of doing), it's up to the traditional fans to accept drivers who come from different regions and are culturally different. 344. BON GORDON posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was gonna say that whole thing about what Dan Elliott had said I few years ago on Wind Tunnel CJS. Good call. For once I agree with your entire post. Haha. 345. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, in a way, Stewart's 2011 season ended a lot like how Earnhardt's '87 championship season began. Earnhardt had 6 wins and 8 top tens in the first 10 races, while Stewart had 5 wins and 8 top tens in the final ten races. Now obviously, comparing the two seasons as whole is laughable considering how dominant Earnhardt was from start to finish and knowing that they each ended with the same result. If you look at Stewart's 2011 season from a statistical standpoint, it's a little ironic just how far out of contention Earnhardt was at winning the '99 championship, considering how similar those two seasons look on paper. 346. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.05.2012 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If only Dale could have raced in the era of the cha$e, wave arounds, lucky dogs, and especially double file restarts (which favor drivers who can be the most aggressive without screwing up). He would have hated every single one of these rules just like he hated restrictor plates. But like plate racing, it would have only helped him. And the similarities between Tony's overall 2011 and Dale's 1999 are funny considering '99 wasn't even one of Dale's 15 best seasons. 347. Red posted: 09.05.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Webmaster: please delete post #278. My comment didn't show up the first time, so I re-wrote it as post #258. Then suddenly hours later the original comment pops up. Hmm... 348. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 2:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jordan, you've inspired me to make a list of all active drivers from the southern United States (that includes Florida) and how I view their NASCAR careers will go. I've divided them into three categories: Drivers who have had success in the past (Past), drivers who are currently at or near their primes (Present), and drivers who could be successful should the right opportunity come about (Future). Past: Jeff Burton: His best years are long behind him, but he was the perfect compliment to Mark Martin at Roush and may be the best mentor in the garage. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: Never lived up to his potential, but has had flashes of greatness in his career. Bill Elliott: Now semi-retired, but at one point was among the elite drivers in the sport. Jeff Green: Reduced to start-and-parking every week, but had arguably the greatest season in Nationwide Series history. Bobby Labonte: He's long past relevancy, more so than Burton, but unlike some drivers, he didn't choke away a championship in the #18 car. Terry Labonte: Now semi-retired, may have been the best at conserving equipment and not taking himself out of contention. Joe Nemechek: Never got a fair shot in Cup, but had success driving for smaller teams. Won a lower series championship. Very Bobby Hamilton-like. Morgan Shepherd: Very underrated driver back in the day who had a lot of success at tracks known to be bad on equipment. Michael Waltrip: His career doesn't even sniff the names above him, but the fact that a lot of people in the sport deem him as being successful puts him on the list. Present: Denny Hamlin: If his focus and maturity continue to grow, we can expect to see him remove his "streaky" tag and become an elite driver. Mark Martin: Somewhat on the edge of past and present. Running part-time schedule, but still able to compete and run up front. Elliott Sadler: Might not duplicate Nationwide success to Cup, but a very reliable driver capable of winning a Nationwide championship. Ricky Stenhouse, Jr.: A future Cup champion in the making, but he's gonna need someone to keep his mind in the right place in his early years (Kenseth, come back!). Brian Vickers: I'm not exactly sure where he belongs on this list, but the fact that he's still capable of being competitive puts him right here. Future: Aric Almirola: Not sure if he'll ever have success in Cup, but has held his own in his 1st full season. Trevor Bayne: Still too early to tell where his career is going, but his Daytona 500 win has earned him some success. James Buescher: Last year had consistency but now wins, this year has wins but no consistency. If he can have both, he'll be a champion in no time. Ross Chastain: Has run great in bad Truck equipment. Very mature for a 19-year old. Jeremy Clements: Hasn't been given an opportunity yet, but has the talent and maturity to be a yearly contender should he get that opportunity. Joey Coulter: Adopted the RCR mantra of driving conservatively, could be in line to replace Elliott Sadler in 2013. Austin/Ty Dillon: They'll both be in Cup eventually, but may be overwhelmed in the high level of talent and equipment if unprepared. Jeffrey Earnhardt: Has the family name, but which Earnhardt will he mirror when it comes to being focused? Johanna Long: Has impressed a lot of people driving part-time for ML Motorsports. Could she be the southern anti-Danica? Timothy Peters: The Terry Labonte of the Truck Series. I'm surprised he hasn't been rumored to any Nationwide rides. Darrell Wallace, Jr.: Very mature for an 18-year old. Might not be ready for a full-time Nationwide gig, but might be a big star 10 years from now. 349. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) We haven't discussed this yet, but since I brought it up in my last post, what do you guys think will happen with RCR's #2 Nationwide ride? A number of different possibilities are coming into my mind: Will they elevate Joey Coulter up from Trucks? Will RC change his plan and move Ty Dillon up after just one Truck season? Will he reward Jeremy Clements for giving up his Nationwide ride twice to Ty Dillon by giving him a ride? Will they use the #33 as the Cup driver car and use the #2 as the Nationwide development car, or vice-versa? Will they keep all three cars? Will one car be reduced to part-time status? Might we see Kurt Busch, who's been rumored to RCR, get that ride? I hope they run it full-time with one driver, preferably someone like Clements who hasn't had an opportunity yet. 350. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.05.2012 - 5:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Obviously, Ty, you're stupid or drunk. Anybody, even his most vicious haters, will tell you that JG is the nicest guy in the whole garage. 351. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.05.2012 - 8:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) paul, timothy peters DID run the nationwide series part-time for richard childress back in 2007, and wasn't impressive, i doubt he would do much better today and is definately not a cup level driver, especially since he would just be starting out at age 31, but he will be a solid truck driver for many years to come. he will continue the legacy of guys who were awesome in trucks but never did much in the higher series, like mike skinner, ted musgrave, travis kvapil, dennis setzer, todd bodine, etc. 352. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.05.2012 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And glorious news today as Alex Zanardi won handcycling gold at the Paralympics in what may be the greatest comeback for a race car driver who suffered a career ending injury. 353. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.05.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to have fun with post 338: "...and I hate Jeff Gordon because he's a giant prick. He's an absolute jerkoff to his fans (who make this sport what it is now) and is probably the luckiest driver I've ever seen. I got tired of seeing him dominate week in and week out and the same now applies to Jimmie Johnson. To have one driver dominate the sport year in and year out is bad for our sport. No one wants to see that. NASCAR would be much better off if Jimmie won like two titles, while drivers like Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch won the others. That's probably why most people hate Jimmie -- it's funny when he gets involved in a wreck (same applies to Gordon), the crowd cheers loudly. Also, I don't know how Chad Knaus, who has been fined and suspended numerous times, hasn't received a long ban from NASCAR -- I haven't seen any crew member get suspended or fined as much as Knaus has. Its ridiculous." You are wrong about a few things: Jeff Gordon is one of the leaders of garage area (dispite he can whine once in a while) and is greatly respected for his opinions on matter *much like Jeff Burton*. Fans didn't "make" the sport what it is today, the folks that started this whole thing did (down in Daytona Beach in 1948), sponsers (who pay majority of the bills) help make it (and ruin it), with drivers like Richard Petty, Big E, JEFF GORDON, Tony Stewert help make it. And the car owners who have given said rides to said drivers who help make it what it is today. I'll stop right there. Someone winning endlessly isn't bad for anything (all dynasties end eventually), someone who dominates is bad for everyones else because they aren't trying hard enough. NASCAR fans hate domination because it is boring and can't appreaciate when it happens. But you are right about this: I agree Chad Knaus SHOULD NOT be here. "So needless to say, I loathe Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson with a fiery passion -- the same goes for Kobe Bryant, Bill Belichick, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Tom Brady. And what do Gordon, Johnson, Belichick and A-Rod have in common? Cheaters." Kobe Bryant cheats? I want evidence. Bill Belichick? Well we all know that *spy gate* Derek Jeter? I doubt he has EVER cheated (dispite his sport being guilty of it daily) A-Rod? well duh. Tom Brady? Spygate was bill deal, i doubt Tom had anything to do with it. (Maybe a Michigan guy but i still hate your guts Tom) "What's not good for NASCAR, in the eyes of the traditional fanbase, is not Jimmie Johnson dominating, it's that the dominant driver is an "outsider." If Dale Earnhardt Jr. was the one with 5 championships, interest would be at an all -time high. It's not up to Johnson to play down to everyone else or NASCAR to keep changing the playing field (as they have made a habit of doing), it's up to the traditional fans to accept drivers who come from different regions and are culturally different." Pretty much this. I'm proably near the character limit so i'll stop here, i have a response for this. 354. cjs3872 posted: 09.05.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, although he was referencing baseball when he said it a few months ago, I think Skip Bayless captured it best when it came to NASCAR as well when he said that baseball has, for decades, romanticized successful cheaters. Bayless may have been referencing baseball, but that's true about NASCAR, as well. NASCAR has for many years romaniticized successful cheaters. Junior Johnson and Smokey Yunick were prime examples of this. Then there's Richard Petty. Although he was only caught with an oversized engine only twice (both times at the fall race at Charlotte), there have have rumors that he ran an oversized engine many times. David Pearson even quipped that he had one in the 1976 Daytona 500. And then there's the cheating that went on regarding Bill Elliott's smashing success in 1985 that Dan Elliott admitted to a couple of years ago on Wind Tunnel regarding the pressurization of either the air flow or the fuel flow to get extra horsepower, which was why he was unbeatble on the big tracks that year unless he had a problem. And of course, there were the constant rumors that the cars themselves were below legal size. And there's been the constant cheating of Chad Knaus at Hendrick's #48 team that resulted in four championships in a row (2006-'09). But to prove their greatness in 2010, Knaus and Jimmie Johnson won the championship that year with less than what his competitors had, which proves that they didn't have to cheat to win many races and their championships. And Hendrick has always had crew chiefs that pushed the rules. His first two crew chiefs, Harry Hyde and Gary Nelson, were known for that. And look at what Childress has been doing in the Nationwide Series this year. Each of his two key cars have twice been flagged for rules infractions, and yet they're both in championship contention with one, driven by Elliott Sadler, leading the points most of the season. Bayless may have been referencing baseball when he made that statement about the romaniticizing of successful cheaters, but he may as well have been talking about NASCAR when he made that statement. 355. Bronco posted: 09.05.2012 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: Never lived up to his potential, but has had flashes of greatness in his career." "Mark Martin: Somewhat on the edge of past and present. Running part-time schedule, but still able to compete and run up front." How exactly is the driver who has won this year and has been at the top or near the top of the standings (Dale Jr) categorized with other washed-up drivers, while another driver that hasn't won in 3 years and will likely retire for good at the end of next year considered a driver in his prime (Mark Martin)? Simiarily, how does Brian Vickers make the list of drivers at their prime when he doesn't have a full time ride, and hasn't won in a long time as well? 356. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.05.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) there are also reports that with hand controls a possibility on the new indycar dw12 chassis, that chip ganassi and jimmy vasser could put a car together for alex zanardi (who lost both of his legs in a 2001 accident) to run the 2013 indy 500. 357. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.05.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And there's been the constant cheating of Chad Knaus at Hendrick's #48 team that resulted in four championships in a row (2006-'09). But to prove their greatness in 2010, Knaus and Jimmie Johnson won the championship that year with less than what his competitors had, which proves that they didn't have to cheat to win many races and their championships." Yeah, in 2010 #48 had less, because they were on the ropes for the final 2 races of Chase but won because Hamlin and his CC decide to throw it away (CC at PIR, Hamlin at Homestead). Harvick was within strikeing distance but really wasn't a factor. The 48 team had it handed to them. As long as Chad Knaus is Jimmie Johnsons CC, there will be a dark cloud around them. And that is Chads fault. "What's not good for NASCAR, in the eyes of the traditional fanbase, is not Jimmie Johnson dominating, it's that the dominant driver is an "outsider." If Dale Earnhardt Jr. was the one with 5 championships, interest would be at an all -time high. It's not up to Johnson to play down to everyone else or NASCAR to keep changing the playing field (as they have made a habit of doing), it's up to the traditional fans to accept drivers who come from different regions and are culturally different." If Jr. had 5 cups, NASCAR would be in a much higher place in terms of American sports, but sadly it isn't as such. Jimmie should just keep doing what he is doing, i highly doubt he cares weither or not he is excepted by people. His job is to win races and championships, not be Most Popular Driver (a shot at Dale Jr). NASCAR keeps leveling the playing field, because they (fans) want dominance to end. They (fans) want different winners all the time and different championships all the time. Domination happens, people have to learn to deal with it and except it. Dominance like Micheal Schumachers, Sebasitan Loebs, Jimmie Johnsons don't happen very often. 358. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How exactly is the driver who has won this year and has been at the top or near the top of the standings (Dale Jr) categorized with other washed-up drivers." I'll admit I made a mistake on that one. I was originally just going to list the drivers in alphabetical order, but decided to divide them into categories and forgot to move Junior. Although, I find it a little ironic that you're defending Junior, yet you said I categorized him with "other washed-up drivers" instead of just "washed-up drivers". "while another driver that hasn't won in 3 years and will likely retire for good at the end of next year considered a driver in his prime (Mark Martin)?" If a driver's only considered in his prime by winning recently, then by your logic Martin Truex, Jr. is considered past his prime since he hasn't won in five years. Also, I never said Mark was in his prime right now, just that he's still considered one of the top drivers in NASCAR as of right now. Sure, he may be running part-time and isn't a weekly contender, but his performances at Pocono and Michigan proves that he's not done yet. In fact, he's been in position to win as many races as Kevin Harvick has been in this year, and Harvick's in the Chase and has raced nine more times than Mark this year. "Simiarily, how does Brian Vickers make the list of drivers at their prime when he doesn't have a full time ride, and hasn't won in a long time as well?" Again, his performance this season has far exceeded any expectations anybody has for him. With 3 top fives in 6 starts at two tracks he'd never had a top five at before (Bristol twice, Sonoma) shows that he's capable of competing at a high level. Now, will that translate in the future when/if he gets a full-time ride? I don't know. But I made that list showing which southern NASCAR drivers have been competitive in the past, present, or the future, and I think Vickers' performance in 2012 has earned himself a spot in the "present" list. 359. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think people who are mad at Jimmie Johnson for dominating NASCAR over the last six years should be more mad at the competition, if I can use that term loosely, that's done everything in their power to give him the championship. I think 2009 was the only year that Jimmie was hands-down the best driver in NASCAR from start to finish. But he won it in 2006 partly due to Stewart failing to miss the Chase, in '07 because Gordon couldn't finish the job, in '08 because Carl Edwards (despite having 8 top four finishes) had two mulligans in the Chase, and in 2010 because neither Harvick or Hamlin wanted the championship enough to dethrone a weaker #48 team. While I don't care much for Johnson, I will say that he's the best driver in the sport because he doesn't lose important races and he doesn't lose championships. 360. 10andJoe posted: 09.05.2012 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, and now for something completely different: We all know Darrell Wallace, Junior has The Best NASCAR Name Ever. But who had the /worst/? My nominees: 1. Dick Trickle 2. Robbie Faggart 3. Scott Gaylord 4. Nathan Buttke Nominees? 361. Crash McGehee posted: 09.05.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Dick Passwater 362. cjs3872 posted: 09.05.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to mention this, but on Sunday or Monday, I'm not only going to post what the Chase standings would look like if my weighted system were put in place (and it will be immensely different from the official standings, ince the man in eighth would currently be the leader with his four wins, despite all his troubles during the middle part of the season), but I'm also going to post preditcions for all 10 Chase races, as well as try to predict where all 12 drivers will place in the Chase. 363. rtcrules posted: 09.05.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always thought Dick Trickle, Coo Coo Marlin, and Buckshot Jones were the best. 364. Schroeder51 posted: 09.05.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Gober Sosebee ranks up there personally. Only one letter away from his name being "Goober". Ben Arnold has to rank up there as well. How embarrassing does it have to be to share a name with America's most notorious traitor? Oh, and Dick Johnson (both of them) and Slick Johnson rank up there too. 365. Schroeder51 posted: 09.05.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, among drivers who never drove in a points paying race, but attempted to qualify for the Daytona 500, Darwin Sandstrom (Darwin?! Who names their kid that?) and Jim Crowe (his name is awfully close to a derogatory name for African-Americans) rank high on my list of odd names as well. 366. Schroeder51 posted: 09.05.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Pee Wee Wentz has to rank up there. As do George Bush, Bill Clinton, John Kennedy, and Woodie Wilson, all sharing names with former US Presidents (there was also a Bob Kennedy and a Ted Kennedy as well). 367. Spen posted: 09.05.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb: Actually, I consider your Bodine/Busch comparison the most on the mark of the three. And it works in reverse as well. Put Geoff in as a rookie in the 2000's, and he'd probably have a chase title. McMurray's a little too inconsistent to be compared to Marlin. And Newman/Baker? The master of lucking his way into wins and the guy who was a weekly contender (if perennial loser) do not belong in the same category. 368. Paul posted: 09.05.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reportedly, Ryan Newman has a deal in place to remain at Stewart-Haas in 2013, with sponsorship from Quicken Loans, Tornados, and Wix. Also, 2-time NASCAR Busch North Series champion Mike Olsen will make his Sprint Cup debut at New Hampshire, driving for childhood friend Frankie Stoddard's FAS Lane Racing team. For all you northeast race fans out there, Olsen and Stoddard grew up working in the race shop of legendary northeast Late Model driver Stanley "Stub" Fadden, Olsen's grandfather. I didn't know this, but Stoddard's team number (#32) is an homage to the late Fadden's #16 (16 times 2 equals 32). 369. murb posted: 09.05.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points Spen. I should clarify, I wasn't around when Buddy was a driver. I've always known him as a broadcaster (and a great one at that). So the main reason why I compared them (Buddy and Ryan) was that when I looked at both of their stats, the thing that jumped out at me was that they were both fantastic qualifiers who never really won that much. I totally agree with you on Newman relying way too much on luck for his success. He seemed like he was a potential future champion in his rookie year, but since then, he hasn't nearly been consistent or had the mental toughness to actually be one. His 2003 season was the definition of the word "fluke". They won at least 3 or 4 of those 8 races on fuel mileage (Pocono, Michigan, and the second Dover race for sure). Quite frankly, I'm glad he will not be in the Chase this year (barring a completely random miracle that would have to come from left field). He's been incredibly invisible this year. If a couple things had gone differently at Martinsville (if Bowyer hadn't gone banzai or if AJ had roughed him up), he wouldn't have even been in the Wild Card discussion. 370. cjs3872 posted: 09.05.2012 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about it was that Buddy Baker drove so hard that his cars always seemed to break on him, and Newman is guilty of driving too hard, as well. And actually, Newman is a protege of Baker, who was a consultant with Penske Racing when Newman was hired by Penske, so that comparison actually fits more than you know. And as for Newman backing into that win at Martinsville, that wasn't the first win Newman backed into at Stewart-Haas Racing. Remember that at Phoenix in 2010, Kyle Busch was going to win that race until a late caution came out, and Jeff Gordon's team elected to take two tires on the pit stops that followed, as did Newman. Then on the GWC restart in that race, Gordon spun his tires, handing Newman the lead, and the win. And remember that those "fuel mileage" wins in 2003 were actually accomplished with an oversized fuel cell that held over 23 gallons (about 23.2 gallons of fuel), instead of the legal 22, but that was never discovered until much later. 371. 10andJoe posted: 09.05.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul - That's awesome. I was hoping Mike Stefanik might get a shot in that car, but Olsen is good too. 372. Scott B posted: 09.05.2012 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great driver name: Worth McMillion! 373. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.06.2012 - 7:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The best racing name ever by a mile is John Force. The name is short but powerful, and is especially perfect for drag racing. Maybe my view is a bit skewed by the fact he has FIFTEEN championships including his most recent at age 65, is still contending for titles while pushing 70, and has a passion for racing that is simply unmatched. But that is one kick ass name for a guy that kicks a lot of ass. 374. 10andJoe posted: 09.06.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Completely agreed. And it's funny to see how Force is regarded in the drag racing fandom (as very nearly the closest thing to divinity) vs Jimmie Johnson in stock cars (evil incarnate). The difference is that Force is a character, and isn't afraid to be a LARGE HAM. 375. cjs3872 posted: 09.06.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I haven't mentioned this yet, but Jeff Gordon does not hold his desitny in his own hands, in regards to making the Chase. If no winless or one-win Wild Card eligible driver wins the race and Gordon ends up 12th in points ahead of Kyle Busch, Gordon would make the Chase, but there's also a chance that Gordon misses the Chase, even if he wins Saturday night. If Gordon wins Saturday night and Kyle Busch finishes in the top five, thus staying ahead of Gordon in points, and moves into the top ten in points, and Gordon does not move ahead of Kahne in points, Gordon would still miss the Chase, even with a win, because Kahne would be higher in points. In short, Gordon does not control his own destiny. He could make the Chase without winning, or miss it, even if he wins. But the chances of all this happening are about 1-2%, but given Kahne's history at Richmond, it definately could happen. But for this to to take place, Gordon must win and Kahne must be positioned between Busch and Gordon in the points, and Busch must supplant Stewart in tenth position. 376. Dave #38 Fan posted: 09.06.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) actually cjs, a win would get gordon in the chase no matter where kyle busch finishes, if gordon has two wins to busch's one win then gordon will get the second wild card. 377. Jordan posted: 09.06.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs is right. Busch could move into the top 10 and make it on points, knocking out Stewart who gets the first wild card, and Kahne gets the second. 378. Talon64 posted: 09.06.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's true for every 1-win driver 11th-20th. I wish Marcos Ambrose would find a way to win and make the Chase; he finished 5th at Richmond in 2010 but since joining RPM he's finished 21st-23rd in his last 3 starts there. Newman's a former winner at Richmond, but that was back in 2003. His best finish in the last 14 races is 4th, leading only 83 laps over that span. He used to be REALLY good here in his early days with Penske with runner-up finishes in his first 2 starts there and 342 laps led in his first 4 starts. Jeff Gordon hasn't won at Richmond since 2000 but he has 3 top 3 finishes in his last 6 starts, including in 2010 where he led 144 laps and finished 2nd. Also, he was 3rd in last year's September race. It'd take a miracle for Carl Edwards to make it, starting with ending his 58 race winless drought. He has 5 straight top 10's at Richmond, including 2 top 5's and 427 laps led. But the race he had at Richmond earlier in the year (led 206 laps) came with Bob Osbourne as his crew chief, so I'm wondering if they'll still be as good there since it's Chad Norris now. Joey Logano has just 1 top 5 in 7 Richmond starts, a 4th place finish back in 2010. No laps led. Kasey Kahne's 1st career Cup win came at Richmond back in 2005, and he has 2 top 5's in his last 3 Richmond starts. The only exception was when he crashed out of last year's September race just 50 laps in, so hopefully a repeat of that won't happen this year. Believe it or not, Paul Menard's still alive to make the Chase. He needs cataclysmic atrocities to happen to every 1-win driver ahead of him, and needs to win at a track where his best finish in 11 starts was a 13th place finish earlier in the year (27.5 average finish). Hey, at least he comes in with a shot! And then there's Kyle Busch, who's so freaking awesome at Richmond that the only thing I need to mention as far as his Chase hopes is that he hasn't finished worse than 6th in his last 7 starts. On paper, Kyle Busch has the best odds of any of the wild card drivers to win at Richmond and the best odds of finishing well enough to make it in as long as another 1-win driver doesn't win. Active drivers (among full time drivers who don't S&P) have combined for 26 wins at Richmond, with 15 represented by the top 10 in points. So the odds are good that either Kyle Busch or a top 10 driver will win the race. But I'm sure with all the desperation to make the Chase, we'll see a lot of strategy calls as far as tires and fuel which could mix things up. And drivers getting desperate and doing stupid things to others *coughcoughcarledwardscoughcough* or themselves *coughcoughkylebuschcoughcough*. 379. cjs3872 posted: 09.06.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But again, Dave #38 Fan (#376) and Jordan (#377), while the posibility of Busch getting in on points, and Jeff Gordon not making the Chase if he wins at Richmond Saturday night is almost astronomical, but it is arithmatically possible. But again, Busch would almost have to finish second or third for that to happen, since the difference betwen them is currently just 12 points. If Busch finishes lower than about sixth, Gordon would leapfrog Busch in points. The other thing that would have to happen for this scenario to pass would be that busch would have to get tenth in points, and Kasey Kahne would have to be between Busch and Gordon. With a difference between Busch and Gordon being just 12 points, that's what makes this scenario next-to-impossible. This kind of thing is more likely to happen to one of the other one-win drivers in the Wild Card mix because of the greater point differential. The other crazy scenario would be Kahne missing the Chase, which might very well happen if he repeats his finish in this race a year ago, which was 38th. Of course, none of this is possible if Tony Stewart has even an average night Saturday night. 380. JG24FanForever posted: 09.06.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dsff John Force won title 15 at age 61. I love John Force! i've met him dozens of times at Commerce and Charlotte and seen him lose in the finals 4 times to just 2 wins in about 20 something races that i've been to. At Charlotte this year after John won in the first round he said he had Carl Edwards with him and he said Tony Stewart was in his car with his signature comedic voice, everybody in the grandstands were laughing their asses off. BTW John Force is the Greatest driver of All-time. Championships: 1990-1991-1993-1994-1995-1996-1997-1998-1999-2000-2001-2002-2004-2006-2010 Wins: 134 (2nd place in Funny Car is Tony Pedregon with 43) 381. Jordan posted: 09.06.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't imagine what would happen if you told that belief to F1 fans. They think it's bad that NASCAR drivers only turned left, what would they think if we have a racing series where people don't turn at all? Force may be the greatest drag racer but that definitely doesn't make him the greatest driver at all time. So many NASCAR drivers and F1 drivers would have things to say about that. 382. JG24FanForever posted: 09.06.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drag racers still have driving ability and unusual reflexes. However you look at it, to stay Champion in a one on one racing series for 10 years against heavily funded competition with great drivers is incredible. Sebastian Loeb will get his 9th Consecutive WRC title this year but, next year it will probably end with the rise of new champion Sebastian Ogier. I don't really think John Force is a better F1 driver than Jim Clark, but compare John Force's domination of his series in Championship terms and he has to be considered one of the All-time greatest drivers in motorsports history. Remember ESPN's 25 Greatest drivers of all-time list? 1.A.J Foyt 2.Mario Andretti 3.Dale Earnhardt 4.Michael Schumacher 5.Ayrton Senna 6.Richard Petty 7.David Pearson 8.Jim Clark 9.Juan Manuel Fangio 10.Jeff Gordon 11.Rick Mears 12.John Force 13.Jackie Stewart 14.Cale Yarborough 15.Al Unser 16.Tony Stewart 17.Bobby Unser 18.Alain Prost 19.Emerson Fittipaldi 20.Darrell Waltrip 21.Shirley Muldowney 22.Niki Lauda 23.Don Garlits 24.Nigel Mansell 25.Steve Kinser This list is from 2008 before Jimmie Johnson made his monumental splash. 383. JG24FanForever posted: 09.06.2012 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a copied list of the voters for the ESPN's Top 25 list: Kenny Bernstein -- Six-time NHRA champion with four Funny Car titles and two Top Fuel titles. Terry Blount -- ESPN.com motorsports writer. Tim Brewer -- ESPN NASCAR commentator and two-time Cup championship crew chief. K. Lee Davis -- ESPN.com motorsports editor. Mike Dunn -- ESPN analyst for NHRA events and one of only four drivers with 10 or more career victories in Top Fuel and Funny Car. Ray Evernham -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and crew chief for three of Jeff Gordon's four Cup championships. A.J. Foyt -- Four-time Indy 500 winner. Scott Goodyear -- ESPN IndyCar analyst, former IndyCar racer and member of the Canadian Motorsports Hall of Fame. Jeff Gordon -- Four-time Cup champion in NASCAR. Mike Harris -- Long-time auto racing writer for the Associated Press. Dale Jarrett -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1999 Cup champion. Dan Knutson -- Formula One writer for ESPN.com. Ryan McGee -- Motorsports writer for ESPN The Magazine and ESPN.com. Juan Pablo Montoya -- Current Cup driver, 1999 CART champion, 2000 Indy 500 winner and former Formula One driver. John Oreovicz -- American open-wheel racing writer for ESPN.com. Richard Petty -- Seven-time Cup champion in NASCAR. Marty Reid -- ESPN motorsports broadcaster. Tony Stewart -- Two-time Cup champion in NASCAR and 1997 IRL champion. Rusty Wallace -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1989 Cup champion. 384. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.06.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The key is this: if you had the chance to relive one person's career, whose would it be? Assuming that whoever you picked, you would share their passion for their given form of motorsport. For me, the answer is John Force. 15 championships, 10 in a row, still winning titles in your 60's. How could you not want to experience those thrills? 385. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2012 - 10:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like the advantage that Hendrick Motorsports has gained through whatever tricks they were using with the rear ends is going away when the Chase starts. If what I read is true NASCAR is making it so that the movement of the suspension pieces is severely limited and must be designed to move instead of locking down in one position. In effect, this could dramatically change what we see in the Chase. I wonder if Tony Stewart's struggles recently could be based on the fact that he refused to use these setups. Remember that he struggled in 2004 when teams were using insanely low gear ratios (most notably DEI and HMS), something that JGR refused to do, and he struggled most of that season, but when NASCAR made the gear ratio rule for 2005, the one driver that benefitted the most was Stewart. I wonder if the struggles of Stewart and some others had to do with the fact that they refused to run these risque setups. Now that these trick setups are going out the window, it wouldn't surprise me if we see that #14 car run up front in the Chase a little more often than it's been up there recently. 386. Jordan posted: 09.07.2012 - 12:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This should be fuel to the fire of those who say NASCAR lets Hendrick break the rules to win! Oh wait... EVERY TIME Hendrick finds a loophole in the rules, they rewrite it, they punish the ingenuity at Hendrick Motorsports. People can say what they want but I think ignoring all these rule changes and point system changes when judging Jimmie Johnson's career success is extremely unfair. Not many drivers have had such sustained success when the playing field is so inconsistent. And if I had the chance to relive any one driver's career, it would be Mario Andretti by far. 387. John Royal posted: 09.07.2012 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It has to be Beaver Dragon - like wtf... 388. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 09.07.2012 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This should be fuel to the fire of those who say NASCAR lets Hendrick break the rules to win! Oh wait... EVERY TIME Hendrick finds a loophole in the rules, they rewrite it, they punish the ingenuity at Hendrick Motorsports." NASCAR said they weren't breaking the rules, however if people complain enough (Exhabit A: Fans) NASCAR will eventually do something. However, this isn't about the people who buy tickets and T-shirts, this is about the competition complaining. Drivers have complained in the past about others having "an unfair advantage" and don't wish to push the limits themselves. So they have the governing body reduce the "unfair advantage" for them. This has been happening ever since racing started, this is nothing new and IMHO not a big deal. 389. Paul posted: 09.07.2012 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney will give the command to fire engines tomorrow night at Richmond. If you recall, Romney was scheduled to give the command for the Daytona 500, but had to back out after rain delayed the race until the next night. Also, the weather forecast shows a 60% chance of showers and thunderstorms. If I'm not mistaken, the spring race of 2003 was the last Richmond race that ended early due to rain, with Joe Nemechek taking the checkered flag after 393 of the scheduled 400 laps. With four drivers with a realistic shot at the final wildcard spot (Busch, Gordon, Ambrose, Logano), weather has a chance at shaking things up should it come after lap 200. Weather was on Gordon's side at Pocono, it'll be interesting to see if it plays the same role at Richmond. 390. Jordan posted: 09.07.2012 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sports leagues should really avoid getting political... even if 99% of NASCAR fans choose to be Republican (I am DEFINITELY in the 1% in this case), it's extremely poor judgement to openly endorse candidates. They should only allow the sitting politicians to do this and not during election season. You don't see the NFL or NBA endorsing anyone, only in NASCAR... 391. Paul posted: 09.07.2012 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, I left out Ryan Newman from the wildcard list, so there are actually five drivers in realistic contention. Carl Edwards would need to win, have Gordon finish 12th or worse, and Busch to finish 24th or worse. Paul Menard would need to win, have Gordon finish 22nd or worse, and Busch to finish 34th or worse. Should either Busch or Gordon make it into the top 10 after Richmond, both Edwards and Menard would be eliminated regardless of whether they win or not. The possibility of Busch or Gordon having a bad night isn't what will keep either Edwards or Menard out of the Chase, it's the fact that they need to win to have any shot at making the Chase that eliminates them already, in my mind. I know Edwards was a contender at Richmond earlier this year, but that was the only race he came close to winning this year. Take Joey Logano for example: He won at Pocono, which was his only shot at winning this year, but was a non-factor when they came back for the second race this year. I think Edwards had one shot at winning and turning his season around, and he blew it I'm afraid. 392. Arthur D. posted: 09.07.2012 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #390: Being a grand marshal is an 'endorsement', eh? If that's true, even though you don't like this one, you must be loving a lot of what NASCAR's done lately. I must have missed your comments regarding last year's Cup race at Miami. What did the 1%-ers think of that one? I agree that politics shouldn't mix with sports, but if you think the NBA and NFL aren't political, you're naive. Follow the money. 393. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mario had too many Indy disappointments I wouldn't have to relive, especially considering he got his one win there early in his career so he didn't get to redeem most of them like Dale did in the Daytona 500 by having all those disappointments then getting his one win late. But his career was fascinating as hell. Jordon, you forgot to mention the percentage of us that hate ALL politicians: democrats, republicans, tea party, whig party, you name it. I don't like seeing any politicians at a race. For every HMS legitimate innovation they have a ton of outright cheating penalties. And the cheating penalties are just the times they were caught. Who knows how much they have done and never got busted with. Remember, Gordon wouldn't have been cought with that illegal (not "innovative", flat out illegal) suspension in 1995 had he not lost a wheel in the World 600. Who knows how much stuff they used that year and didn't get caught with. Nowadays they would have received a huge points penalty and Earnhardt would have won his 8th championship. Damn it all. 394. Paul posted: 09.07.2012 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Joe Nemechek makes the Cup race at Richmond, he will join Richard Petty, Michael Waltrip, and Mark Martin as the only drivers with at least 1,000 career starts throughout NASCAR's three National series'. He currently sits at 998 career starts and will reach 999 in the Nationwide race tonight. 395. Paul posted: 09.07.2012 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JR Motorsports has announced that they've parted ways with Tony Eury, Sr. He severed as Cole Whitt's crew chief for the first five races and had Cole sitting 6th in the points when he was replaced by Bruce Cook. Since then, Cole has dropped to 7th in the points and is more than a full race behind 6th. Eury was then moved over to JRM's part-time #5 entry, and in five races (3 with Ron Fellows, 2 with Dale Jr.) his cars posted 4 top five finishes. The #5 team isn't scheduled for anymore races this season and with Danica moving up to Cup in 2013, the #7 will become the part-time entry, so it's not like Eury, Sr. would be crew chiefing for JRM anytime soon. I question this however because of the leadership and role he's played in Junior's and JRM's careers. From that standpoint, I think this might be bad for JRM in the long run. 396. 10andJoe posted: 09.07.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shocker: Tony Eury Sr. is out at JR Motorsports. Also shocker: Travis Pastrana leads Richmond practice. I'm checking out my window for porcine aviators... 397. 10andJoe posted: 09.07.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...and the report from the flying pigs is that Dakoda Armstrong has been fired by ThorSport Racing. 398. Paul posted: 09.07.2012 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ESPN should use this team of Marty, Rusty, and Brad more often, especially Rusty. They have something to say about every driver that's qualified so far in Nationwide qualifying. 399. Talon64 posted: 09.07.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pastrana backed up his practice time by qualifying 5th for the race. Might've had a shot at the pole if he wasn't just making sure that he got the car into the race, since the #60's not locked in. also, Johanna Long qualified a career-best 8th! A top 10 finish tonight would be just the 3rd for ML Motorsports and the first of her career as well. On the day they announce the departure of Eury Sr., the #88 and #7 qualify 19th and 24th respectively. They were 9th and 12th in owners points last season but they're currently 12th and 17th, and JR Motorsports hasn't won a Nationwide race since Jamie McMurray won at Atlanta in the #88 in 2010. 400. murb posted: 09.07.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Tony Sr out at JRM? Did not see that coming. I agree, it's a questionable decision. I'll have to miss most of, if not, all of the NNS race tonight. Hopefully Travis can have a good run in that 60 car. 401. 10andJoe posted: 09.07.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Might've had a shot at the pole if he wasn't just making sure that he got the car into the race Another reason to ditch the top 35 rule. 402. ch posted: 07.16.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor for the #18 should just be Doublemint for consistency. 403. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 05.12.2016 - 7:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Update #33 Special Ops OPSEC 404. Maverick11 posted: 08.24.2016 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So far, Hamlin's only Cup win in a car not sponsored by FedEx. 405. Sandy posted: 07.22.2020 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last race for Robinson Blakeney racing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: