|| *Comments on the 2012 Bank of America 500:* View the most recent comment <#418> | Post a comment <#post> 1. Daniel posted: 10.11.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #26 Josh Wise & #87 Joe Nemechek Out using fastest 43: #36 Dave Blaney & #93 Travis Kvapil 2. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.11.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Um, Brad, what the f***? I'm just asking what the f***? Maybe I'm expecting too much out of the point leader, but I can only wonder what the f***? Watching him qualify and seeing his time, it just makes me wonder what the f***? Just kidding, I knew he would struggle qualifying here. 3. Paul posted: 10.11.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jeff Burton, an RCR driver, was slower than Joe Nemechek, an owner/driver on a start-and-park team, who missed the race. I've seen about enough of this crap. Put Regan Smith in that car next year. He'll at least qualify in the top 40! 4. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) One last thought from qualifying: Turtles in a half shell, TURTLE POWER! Why couldn't this have happened in 1990 or 1991? Now I have a decision to make. Do I watch the VP debate (which is only available on 13 different channels) or do I watch Alf reruns? Ah who am I kidding, this one is easy. The answer is clearly Alf! Alf rules! 5. joey2448 posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about Junebug? I was shocked when I heard the news...This'll be a great opportunity for Regan Smith to showcase his talent and perhaps pick up a more competitive ride next season. And Allmendinger is back in a stock car! Really thought that he would be in Indy Car next year, but that's still up in the air, I guess... 6. cjs3872 posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, Jeff Burton's never been a good qualifer, even when he was a championship contender, but this just proves my point about Burton being an uncompetitve driver that is unable to add anything to the organization any more, and Paul Menard is not that much better. That's why Kevin Harvick will continue to struggle, because he has nobody else to turn to that can help him. On the other hand, Bobby Labonte qualified well in 15th place for a team that has little desire to be competitve, while I think Bobby still has something left if he was on a competitve team. Not a championship, mind you, but I think he can still, under the right circumstances, compete in the top ten and challenge for an occasional top five. Also, Carl Edwards was a disappointing 19th, while his teammates were both in the top seven. But Clint Bowyer, who qualified fourth, is someone to watch in this race. In fact, the MWR cars qualified second, fourth, and sixth. And while points leader Brad Keselowski qualified 20th, that's about where he usually qualifies, so I wouldn't be too concerned about him. He just needs to finish in the top five to ten and keep Jimmie Johnson and Denny Hamlin in sight, and if he finishes ahead of one or both of them, he'll be in great shape heading to Kansas and Martinsville. 7. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll be pulling for Regan and Dinger. And hopefully the 78 deal will blow up worse than the drill sargeant from Stripes. 8. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good going DSFF you made the right choice there. If only Pro Wrestling was still as hot as it was during the attitude era. 9. Dan posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This will be the first race since the 1979 Southern 500 to not have an Earnhardt in the field, and it may very well be the first NASCAR race in history with no drivers from North Carolina. 10. JG24FanForever posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Teenage mutant ninja turtles Teenage mutant ninja turtles Teenage mutant ninja turtles Heroes in a half shell, turtle power They're the worlds most fearsome fighting teens [ we're really hip ] Teenage mutant ninja turtles They're heroes in a half shell and they're green [ hey, get a grip ] Teenage mutant ninja turtles When the evil shredder attacks These turtle boys don't cut him no slack Teenage mutant ninja turtles Teenage mutant ninja turtles Splinter taught them to be ninja teens [ he's a radical rat ] Teenage mutant ninja turtles Leonardo leads, Donatello does machines [ that's a fact, Jack ] Teenage mutant ninja turtles Raphael is K00L but rude Michaelangelo is a party dude Teenage mutant ninja turtles Teenage mutant ninja turtles Teenage mutant ninja turtles Heroes in a half shell, turtle power!! 11. BON GORDON posted: 10.11.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me 13th is a very disappointing start for Jeff. I was hoping for a Top five or six start. Ugh.... 12. Paul posted: 10.11.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Technically the Earnhardt streak hasn't ended this weekend. Remember, Jeffrey Earnhardt, Kerry's son and Dale's grandson, is at the track and will be in the Nationwide race tomorrow. Of course, their Cup streak will end this weekend. cjs, I noticed that. I was just about to say "at least make a driver swap and put Bobby Labonte in that car." People will look at Bobby's numbers the past three years and think that he's washed up and should retire while he can. Well, a large part of that reason is because he has driven for some of the worst non-start-and-park teams in the past three years and hasn't driven for a stable team since Joe Gibbs Racing back in '05. Think about it. In the past three years, he's driven for Hall of Fame Racing (a satellite team of a satellite team [Yates Racing] of a team that doesn't use its satellite teams correctly [Roush]), TRG Motorsports (a Grand-Am team that just this year took its ball and went home), Phoenix Racing, and now JTG Daugherty "Racing" (from now on I'm putting quotation marks around "Racing" for that team because they have no interest in doing such a thing). Bobby is a past series champion who in 2000 looked Dale right through the barrel of the gun, didn't budge, and ultimately ran away with the championship (I love ya Jeff, but you did the exact opposite in '95). And what he accomplished at Petty Enterprises was pretty amazing. In the six seasons before he arrived there, they had only 1 top five finish and a best points finish of 23rd (both by John Andretti). In 2006 alone, Bobby had 3 top fives and finished 21st in the points, followed by an 18th place finish the next season. I'm curious, did he leave after 2008 or did the re-branded Richard Petty Motorsports replace him with Reed Sorenson? If it's the latter, then my mind is blown. I'm not going to go through everything he did at HOF and TRG because, quite frankly, he had no highlights (other than a fantastic save during final practice for the 2010 Daytona 500). But it's obvious that he was the best thing those two teams had, as his replacements included Erik Darnell (not even close to Cup ready), Brendan Gaughan (makes first Cup start in six years, crashes on first lap), Andy Lally (first full year in NASCAR), and a truck load of start-and-park drivers. And although his numbers at JTG aren't as impressive as Marcos Ambrose's, you have to remember that when Marcos was there, the #47 team was essentially the 3rd MWR car as they were heavily funded by MWR. Then last year JTG decided they wanted to move into their own shop and spent all of last year transitioning over, and this year is their first year completely on their own. Given the adversity he's had to face and the "racing" team he's a part of, I think he's done an admirable job. As for Jeff Burton, I'll sum it up like this: For the second time in three weeks, he, in an RCR car, was slower than a start-and-park car that missed the race (Stremme at Dover, Nemechek at Charlotte). Yes he's still competitive at restrictor plate tracks, but so are Michael Waltrip and Casey Mears. I rest my case. This might sound a little odd coming from someone who just a week ago was defending Burton, but I've lost all faith in him as a driver. I know he's a lousy qualifier (only 6 poles in 20 years), but this is where I put my foot down. Then I look at the leaderboard and see that Bobby Labonte, who drives for the supermarket advertising team, qualifies 15th. That's all I need to see. RCR should at least swap Burton for Labonte. He'll still have that veteran leadership and team morale booster, while getting results at the same time. He hasn't had that since, well Burton back when he was competitive from '06-'10, and some of Harvick's best years came in that time period. 13. JG24FanForever posted: 10.11.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby is a past series champion who in 2000 looked Dale right through the barrel of the gun, didn't budge, and ultimately ran away with the championship (I love ya Jeff, but you did the exact opposite in '95)." Jeff led 3400+ miles to Dale's 1700+, that's X2 Jeff also led the most laps 11 times + 7 wins(The Most)+ 2600 laps led(The Most)+ 8 poles(The most)+ 14 consecutive Top 8 finishes + he actually did win the Championship that year if you didn't notice. 14. Paul posted: 10.11.2012 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are great numbers JG24FanForever, no doubt about it. But I noticed that you forgot a number: 268. That's the number of points Jeff lost to Dale over the final four races of the season, so he lost an average of 67 points per race to end the season (approx. 22 positions). If there was one more race, he would have lost the title to Dale because he only beat him by 34 points. Meanwhile, Bobby had a mere 45-point lead over Dale with 16 races to go, but suddenly went on a tear and gained another 220 points on Dale, or about 14 points per race (approx. five positions). The only thing that prevented Jeff from becoming a choke artist that season is that Dale ran out of time. "he actually did win the Championship that year if you didn't notice." Really? Gosh and all this time I thought they just gave the title to Dale because Jeff, as I mentioned earlier, gave up 68 points per race to end the season! Yes of course I know Jeff won the championship in '95. And if I didn't, I could just look it up on this site, the same site I used to figure out just how close Jeff came to making Dale an 8-time champion (somewhere in North Carolina, DSFF is smiling as he envisions Dale holding that 8th championship trophy). Also JG24, I don't think you understood what I said. I said "Bobby is a past series champion who in 2000 looked Dale right through the barrel of the gun, didn't budge, and ultimately ran away with the championship (I love ya Jeff, but you did the exact opposite in '95)". Since Bobby had a small championship lead and ultimately ran away with the title, then that means that Jeff, who had a huge championship lead and finished just 34 points ahead of Dale, had the exact opposite happen to him. I never said that Jeff lost the title, but while Bobby stared down the barrel of Dale's gun and didn't budge, Jeff was 302 yards (points) away from Dale's gun and just froze as Dale got closer and closer before ultimately running out of time. 15. murb posted: 10.11.2012 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haven't been around much lately, so I'm gonna give my thoughts on some things. - Jr being injured: I was absolutely shocked when I saw this this morning. But then I remembered back to hearing about the testing crash at Kansas. It seems like Jr has had a lot of concussions over the years (2002 Fontana, 2003 Dover, 2004 Sonoma in the Corvette, and now this). I really hope he takes care of himself. I honestly would like to see him sit out the rest of this year, just to be safe. Concussions are no joke. Just ask some of these NFL players who have had them. - Regan getting to sub: IN YOUR FACE, FURNITURE ROW!!!! - AJ getting the 51 ride: Not sure how he will do (probably just about the same as he did in the 22), but I'm happy to see him get a second chance. He seems like the type of guy who would learn his lesson from something like this. -Kurt's first race in the 78: My prediction? Torn up race car, followed by another post race interview where Kurt refers to himself as the Bobby Knight of Nascar. - Jeff Burton's continued fade out: It disappoints me to no end. For sure, one of my all time favorites. Just the latest victim to the "former championship contender who becomes irrelevant really fast" department along with Bobby Labonte. - The race at Charlotte: It will most likely be a snooze fest, but who knows? Hopefully we will be in for a surprise (but probably not). 16. Kenny posted: 10.11.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's gonna be weird without Dale Jr in the feld(I'm a big jr fan have been seance 1998) @DSFF I really wish you would stop your bullshit talk about Kurt for real I've read a lot of your bs I thought you liked him but no your one of 70% of assholes who love seeing him fail Btw I'm Kenny been hang hear for a long time I wish to join this place and as I've said before I'm a jr fan I also like Kyle Denny kasey Joey and have been a Mark Martin fan seance I was 6(and back then I dident watch NASCAR but I liked mark)I look forword to meeting everyone and getting to know you all better :) 17. David posted: 10.11.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Welcome aboard, Kenny. 18. Kenny posted: 10.11.2012 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you David 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul is right. In 2000 Dale was within 45 points of Bobby after the first New Hampshire race, and from there Bobby simply turned on the afterjets and left Dale in his smoke. He ran off with it. Conversely, in '95, Jeff had a 314 point lead over Dale (who had actually fallen to 4th in points by that point) after the late August race, a 309 point lead after Dover with just 6 races left, and a 302 point lead after Wilkesboro with just FOUR races left. He won by just 34 points. Polar opposites. But honestly, those two years don't bother me. In each case, the right driver clearly won the Winston Cup, and the truth is Dale was never really a contender down the stretch in either season. The only one that bugs me is '89. That is the only time he was truly in the title hunt and didn't bring the hardware back to his farm. He had a 100+ point lead after his September Dover win. From there he had a mediocre race at Martinsville (where he was gifted the pole by Jimmy Hensley when he had to stay behind on qualifying day cause Hurricane Hugo wrecked his farm), blew up 13 laps into Charlotte, had The Great Wilkesboro Incident Of Eighty Nine, then got dumped by Rusty at Rockingham (that doesn't get the historical attention it deserves). Had he won that, he would be the only 8 time champion, would have been the second driver in history to win 3 straight Cups ('89-'91), and would be a perfect 8 for 8 when under the stress of a title fight. Oh well, he lost to a legend and his greatest rival in Rusty Wallace, and is still 7 for 8 with all the glory on the line. Plus only one of those 7 titles had a weak ending (1991). I've always looked at championship closing ability as a huge factor in ranking a driver historically. 20. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24Fan, did you have to look all those words up or did you just remember them? Even I couldn't remember all of them. " I really wish you would stop your bullshit talk about Kurt for real I've read a lot of your bs I thought you liked him" Where did you get that from? Granted I really enjoyed the face melters he served to Jimmy Spencer at Bristol '03 (I never liked Mr Excrement) and Harvick at Bristol '06 (by my calculations, Harvick will need to win 3 Cup championships to live that one down). " but no your one of 70% of assholes who love seeing him fail" Uh, that 70% number is a pretty low estimate. 21. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think historically that '89 North Wilkesboro incident was a good thing for two reasons. The first and most important reason is that it ended with Rusty Wallace winning what wound up being his one and only Cup championship (and ultimately led to him being inducted in the NASCAR Hall of Fame). The second reason is that Earnhardt had a chip on his shoulder the entire season, as seen from his results. He had 9 wins (second most of his career), led the series in top fives (18) and tied for most top tens (23) with "The Kid", and even won 4 poles (a career high). But what I think truly defines Dale is what happened from the Coca-Cola 600 through the end of the season. He had just won Talladega (his 3rd win of the season) and had 8 top tens through the first 9 races, when he went through a 4-race stretch of finishing outside the top ten, including three straight finishes of 30th or worse, and fell from 1st to 5th in points. In a year where Mark looked unbeatable and with Dale on the brink of losing the title for the 3rd year in a row, Dale went on a tear over the final 16 races. In that span, he won 5 races (including 3 of the next 4), finished outside the top ten only once, and reclaimed the point lead at Phoenix, which he held for the final race, winning his 4th Cup title and avoiding a 3rd straight defeat. I wonder what would have happened had Dale lost the title in '90, after losing it the previous two years as well. Maybe in the "worst points battle ever", he comes out on the losing end. Maybe NASCAR doesn't feel obligated to gift wrap Dale his lone win in '92 at Charlotte because he hadn't won a title in a GM sponsored car. Maybe Rusty has the upper hand in '93 and ultimately wins his 2nd title, in which case the '89 North Wilkesboro incident is looked at for its future consequences rather than just a one-time deal. So basically, I think that when Dale won the title in 1990, it proved that he could overcome adversity and win the title in the same season, and it put the ending to the '89 season to rest. Otherwise, if Dale loses in '90, it could have changed history; not just because Mark would have a championship, but because it would have made Dale a 3-time title loser and could have affected the way he was seen in NASCAR and as a driver. And if my theory of '91 had been correct, Ricky Rudd might have gone down as the bad guy in the fans' eyes because he would have cost Earnhardt the title in '89 and won it from him in '91. I don't know what would have happened had Earnhardt not won the '90 title, but it is interesting to think "what if...?". Looking back, I'm also glad that Gordon beat Earnhardt for the title in '95 (even though he did everything except not show up to the track to lose it) because it was truly a "passing of the torch" moment. The reason I say that is because of Earnhardt's '96-'99 seasons and how injuries and RCR as a whole turned Earnhardt from a yearly title contender to a guy who got beat by Mayfield in the points. Had Earnhardt won the '95 title, I think NASCAR goes downhill in from '96 onward because their champion is now injured and a shell of his former self. Because Jeff beat Dale in '95, it allowed for a new face to emerge and NASCAR had itself a young hotshot driver that they could build towards the future. And while Dale's '96 Talladega crash wasn't a good thing for NASCAR, it was better for the sport that he got hurt when he wasn't the defending champion. As for Bobby, I think he proved that the art of choking simply does not run in the Labonte family. Bobby and Terry were in position to win three championships in their careers (Bobby's '99 season was great, but Dale Jarrett simply beat him, just like he beat everybody else that year) and they won each time. Not to mention the fact that they had to beat three great drivers in Harry Gant, Jeff Gordon, and Dale Earnhardt to win them. Take a note Busch brothers! 22. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(by my calculations, Harvick will need to win 3 Cup championships to live that one down)." So what you're saying is that Harvick will finish 3 Cup championships short of living that down. Maybe he thought three championships period would do the trick. Man, I bet he was upset that Cup drivers can't run for Nationwide points anymore. 23. cjs3872 posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, you constantly talk about how many points Dale Earnhardt lost in 1989 with that last lap incident with Ricky Rudd and how you say that cost him the championshhip. Let's not forget that the only reason he even had a shot at the championship was because Rusty got spun by Stan Barrett at Phoenix in the next-to-last race of that season. (Barrett ran out of brakes, as noted in the results page for that race.) If not for that, Rusty may very well have clinched at Phoenix, because that incident cost Rusty far more points than the last lap incident at North Wilkesboro cost Earnhardt. That run-in with Ricky Rudd only dropped Earnhardt from first or second to ninth, while Wallace's run-in with Barrett at Phoenix cost him a 16th-place finish. He was leading when Barrett lost his brakes and spun him out, so that incident actually cost Wallace more points than Earnhardt's run-in with Rudd cost him. 24. 10andJoe posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Uh, that 70% number is a pretty low estimate. By at least 20%. Possibly closer to 28%... 25. cjs3872 posted: 10.12.2012 - 3:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know about the rest of my fellow posters, but I just discovered something I find very disturbing. Apparently NASCAR does not require their infield care centers to do concussion checks, even if there is suspicion that a driver may have suffered a concussion. I find this very appalling. Steve O'Donnell, NASCAR's Vice President of Competition said that there have only been nine confirmed concusions in NASCAR's top three series. I don't know who he's trying to fool, but I can tell you I'm being fooled for an instant. I know there have been many, many times more than that. In fact, Dale, Jr. has suffered at least three or four concussions that we know of, and Mike Skinner and Ricky Craven are also known to have suffered multiple concussions. In fact, Craven even admitted that he suffered three of them in a very short time in 1996, and at least two others in 1997 and '98. Just on that alone, I count at least five concussions that Craven suffered. If I had to guess, drivers have suffered at least 150-200 concussions in the years I've been watching the sport, and that would be since 1989. And considering what's been going on in the NFL as far as the lawsuits conerning head injuries andtheir lasting effects are concerned, I find this absolutely shocking that NASCAR does not require infield care centers to do concussion tests, even if concussions are suspected. NASCAR may have had the safest cars on the track, but their record when it comes to this issue may be the worst in all professional sports. It's so bad that this issue even made ESPN's "Around the Horn" show on Thursday, where columnist Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe mentioned that Rusty Wallace admitted to having post-concussion symptoms from a concussion for 15 years. FIFTEEN YEARS! And NASCAR wonders why it's losing fans? Perhaps they need to bring it's medical safety levels up to the level of safety in the cars. That discovery I just made, courtesy of Jayski, may be the single most disturbing thing I've ever read or seen concerning NASCAR in any way, shape, or form. 26. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 4:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This just makes what I said on the Talladega page about how NASCAR stands for "Never About Safety, Careless Acts Rewards" stand on solid ground even more so. I too find that really disturbing about NASCAR's infield care center. I always found it odd how drivers don't have to get checked out if they're able to drive their cars back to pit/garage area (which I mentioned on the Talladega page as a theory as to why Kurt Busch was trying to drive his car back rather than take the ambulance ride to the care center). Theoretically, I driver could hit the wall and suffer a head injury, yet not have to get checked out at the care center because they managed to drive their car back to the garage. Junior was involved in the "Big One" at Talladega, but since he drove his car back to the pit area, I assume he didn't get checked out at the track. And from reading the transcript from his press conference, I don't think he did. I was getting after Junior on the Talladega page for not sitting out after the Kansas test crash and continuing to race knowing that something was wrong, but I applaud him for going out and seeking a professional in Dr. Jerry Petty, who diagnosed him with a concussion. cjs, you can add Kenny Wallace to the list of drivers who have had concussions in NASCAR. On his Facebook page, Kenny mentioned that he got knocked out in a Busch Series crash at Loudon in '91 (that track sure does have a rocky history), and it was Dr. Petty who diagnosed him with positional vertigo, a symptom that has similar lasting effects as a concussion, including spinning of the head and recurrent episodes that may last for minutes at a time. But I'm just as surprised as you are that NASCAR's infield care center does not test the drivers for possible concussions as a result of crashes. I seriously think that NASCAR just adds in all these safety features like the COT, the HANS device, SAFER barriers, stronger roll cages, rubber fuel cells, pit road rules, among other things and calls it a day. They clearly weren't prepared for a driver, let alone one with the stature of Dale Earnhardt, Jr., to be diagnosed with a concussion. It shows not just how unprepared they were for a situation like this, but it shows their ineptitude and incompetence for not being prepared much earlier than this. Hell, they could have begun testing for concussions just this year after Eric McClure suffered a concussion and internal bleeding after his vicious crash at Talladega earlier this year (plus he was in the COT car and hit the SAFER barrier, which proves that they're not injury-proof), yet they just sat on their hands and did nothing. And why? Not just because they're an incompetent sporting league, but because Eric isn't a prominent driver. It didn't mean anything to NASCAR to see one of their lesser-known talents almost having his career end in front of their eyes. To them it was probably like "Quick, let's get this guy hauled out of here fast before the fans become restless." It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they institute a concussion test at the infield care center soon knowing that their "cash cow" is in fact mortal. And to Steve O'Donnell's laughable statement about there only being nine concussions in NASCAR, I'd love to hear which nine drivers they were. I've heard that guy talk before and I've never seen him speak without reading a piece of paper, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone just handed him a script and it just happened to have "nine" written on it. I know about guys like Ricky Craven, Junior before this year, and Skinner who have suffered concussions before, but I had no idea Rusty Wallace had suffered one, and had kept it secret for the most part for 15 years! I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Earnhardt, Elliott, and Petty suffered concussions after some of their big wrecks over the years. And didn't Ernie Irvan suffer a concussion after his '99 Michigan wreck? I wish I knew more, but to NASCAR's credit, they've done a great job keeping this statistic a secret. Ugh. NASCAR can act like everything is all great and everything is fine within their company, but sooner or later this is going to bite them and they'll be sorry for not testing drivers for concussions in the future. I hope nothing serious ever happens, but when you have your biggest name go out onto the track for six races don't test him for possible injuries after his Kansas crash, and find out the day of qualifying for your next race that he has just suffered his SECOND concussion in six weeks when you had no knowledge of the first one occurring (largely because you didn't look into it), you're pathetic. You're absolutely pathetic. This story just keeps getting more disturbing. The real kicker will be if NASCAR knew all along that Junior was concussed, but decided to let him keep racing to protect their ticket and merchandise sales. 27. Kenny posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When I was talking about the 70% I was mean all of NASCAR mostly fans and media(joe mezer at NASCAR.com loved to rip on him)its like all these ppl like sering him in this hole well I for one hope he pulls out and I for one am not much of a Kurt Busch fan(I like Kyle more then Kurt)but as I said I hate seeing Kurt like this and alot of ppl do like it Bristol of 06 I only remember that ordeal between Matt and Jeff(course we know what happioned at chaigo(sp)later on that year)but if its from the nite race I don't remember that one and as for jemmy Spenser I kinda liked him(specley in that 23 Winston nobull car)I wish he had won in that car 28. David posted: 10.12.2012 - 10:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know, cjs, that is disturbing. Even if they did check, that wouldn't have been the first time track personnel have missed a concussion. In Darrell Waltrip's career-changing 1983 Daytona 500 wreck, he suffered a concussion and it went undetected. In other news, Greg Biffle's pole winning speed is the seventh track record this year. Also, If David Ragan or David Gilliland wins tomorrow night's race, they will win a million dollars for Feeding America. Good luck with that. 29. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.12.2012 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) yeah David i saw that if ragan or gilliland wins tomorrow glory foods will donate $1 million. if you're a sponsor, and you want to make yourself look good by offerring to donate $1 million if one of the drivers you sponsor wins, but you don't actually want to have a chance in hell of having one of your drivers win, david ragan and david gilliland and the best choices out there. 30. cjs3872 posted: 10.12.2012 - 11:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said Paul, I can almost guarantee that EVERY driver has suffered concussions, and I would estimate that in the years I've watched the sport, which is since 1989, I would estimate that all the drivers combined have suffered about 150-200 concussions, if not more. And add to the list of drivers that have missed races either with concussions or vertigo Terry Labonte, who suffered those injuries in a crash at the 2000 Firecracker 400, then made it worse the very next week at Loudon (the same weekend that Kenny Irwin, Jr. was killed). Labonte was forced to end his stretk of consecutive starts at Indy, missing that race and the one at Watkins Glen and had Todd Bodine fill in, which he did admirably. So this isn't the first time Hendrick Motorsports has had to go through this, because it went through the same thing with Terry Labonte. 31. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Rick Hendrick hinted to Regan Smith yesterday that Smith could be in line for a Hendrick-affiliated Nationwide ride next season. My guess is that, if this is true, that Regan will drive the #7 JR Motorsports car as that car is Hendrick-affiliated. Plus, Kelley Earnhardt mentioned that she wants to put a veteran driver in that car next season, so Regan could be the guy. If this turns out to be the case, then Regan's release from FRR may be the best thing that has happened to him because now he may get put into the HMS stable and could be in line for a HMS Cup ride if the opportunity comes along. 32. David posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #31 I certainly hope so. 33. Spen posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dan: "This will be the first race since the 1979 Southern 500 to not have an Earnhardt in the field, and it may very well be the first NASCAR race in history with no drivers from North Carolina." There were some Cup/Pacific coast companion races where no east coast drivers bothered to show up. I think the last time that happened would have been in 1961. But this is the first time a Cup only race didn't have a North Carolinian in the field. A pity it had to happen at Charlotte, of all tracks. (And it could have been averted if Scott Riggs had been faster.) 34. Eric posted: 10.12.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not shocked if NASCAR's stat of driver concussions is way off. What NASCAR is doing is the same thing that caused NFL players for sue the NFL. NASCAR's first priority with their drivers is making money off them. Protecting their drivers is a second priority. NASCAR was behind the times in safety in Auto Racing by the late 1990's. Jeff Krogh's crash in 1999 should have been a wake up call to NASCAR, but he was a nobody to NASCAR and ignored his near death crash. While safer barriers were only in development in 1999, head and neck restraints were already proven. The fact if Dale Earnhardt Sr. didn't at 2001 Daytona 500, there still would be even more drivers dying on the track before a big name gets killed. NASCAR got lucky with Bobby Labonte in 2000. Bobby Labonte was lucky to be alive after his stuck throttle at Darlington in 2000 during qualifying. What Rusty Wallace said didn't surprise me sadly. Drivers are like NFL players in terms they don't want be out at any time. NASCAR in the past matter of fact was behind Indycar for safety worker response. I know Indycar lost a driver last year, but the fact is Open wheel race cars are designed in a way that they can't be 100 percent protected from death in a crash. Indycar and open wheel racing to their credit though always cares the drivers health. Indycar is the reason safer barrier development got its start. 35. Eric posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is some other things with NASCAR and safety that hasn't been mentioned in the media yet. Besides NASCAR hiding the real numbers of concussions, they are hiding what tracks the drivers get their concussions from. If Daytona and Talladega are the top 2 tracks that drivers get their concussions from, they need to get a rid of pack racing, and reconfigure the track. The thing is NASCAR and ISC don't want to do that because of the money they get from fans for plate racing. When the media talks about the "big one" they are not mentioning that the "big one" is capable of multiple drivers concussions on the same wreck. While wrecks do happen in racing, but if the wrecks are caused by "manufactured racing" there is a problem. Plate racing is "manufactured racing" and the fact is it increases the odd of a driver getting a concussions from a wreck from that type of racing by the fact it takes one driver making a bad move. 36. cjs3872 posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, like I've said, the NASCAR cars are the safest in motorsports and for the most, always have been. Authorities more qualified than I have said so. Jackie Stewart, the froemost authority on safety has said so, Brock Yates, possibly the most opinionated comentator motorsports has ever had, has said it. But NASCAR is, and always will be behind as far as medical crews go because, among other things, they can't have a traveling medical team, because their premier series are split up quite often. And while the cars have always been the safest, especially from a shell, improvements continue to be made with the inner workings of the car, including the seat, head-and-neck safety equipment, which was forced by the deaths of those drivers, and other things. The tracks have been made safer over the past 10-12 years with energy absorbing walls. NASCAR also led in the efforts to make pit road safer by becoming the first sanctioning body to enact a pit road speed rule over 20 years ago. But now they need to make it so that drivers have checks on potential head injuries after every major crash they have where there's a serious impact. That's the next step, because a driver racing with a head injury is just as dangerous as a driver racing while intoxicated, if not moreso. There's no way to make the sport completely safe, due to the very nature of the sport and it's high speds, but it needs to be made as safe as possible, and checking for potential head injuries after any serious impact is the next step, because NASCAR has to protect the drivers from themselves. 37. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The good news is NASCAR drivers age MUCH more gracefully than NFL players. Wheras just a flood of former NFL players that have dementia, depression, and just a horrible quality of life by the time they reach their 40's. Conversely, old NASCAR drivers, who took licks back well before the safety revolution, seem to be doing really good for their age. Richard Petty, who has had more bone crunching, bell ringing wrecks than probably anyone due to the sheer amount of time and starts he made, remains one of the sharpest minds in the garage at age 75. And seeing drivers in their 70's making their HOF speeches and interviews, it is amazing how well they are doing. Hell, Ned Jarrett turns 80 today, and he is as insightful and elegant with his words as he was back in his glory days of announcing. Even Bobby Allison, who had a HORRIBLE head injury in Pocono in '88, then had his slow reccovery from that compounded by losing both of his sons within the next 5 years, has a stunning quality of life. Yes he has trouble organizing his thoughts into words, and still has a limp from that wreck, but listening to him speak is just amazing. I'm not saying it is ok for NASCAR drivers to get concussions, but I have a theory as to why they do so much better than football players. When a NASCAR driver wrecks hard enough to truly ring his bell, his day is done cause the car gets totaled. He has SOME time to recover. In football, you get whacked in the head, you get right back up, line up again, and continue to take head rattling hits in the same day, then have about 3 days of full contact practice (something the NFL has FINALLY come down on) in the week that follows. Just my 2 cents. Oddly enough, the effects of head injuries from bad incidents in racing was one of the central themes in Days Of Thunder which was released in 1991. 38. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The pit road safety rules also fall in the category of HANS and SAFER barriers, the category of "this rule wasn't enacted until somebody died even though all the signs of a potential tragedy were right there, but NASCAR sat on their hands until somebody died on national TV, then belatedly, ade rules, then patted themselves on the back". This is a VERY sore subject with me. Crew members were getting hurt left and right on pit road in the 80's. In 1984, Doug Richert, championn crew chief 4 years earlier, had his leg destroyed in a pit road accident. Then, at Riverside in 1987, there was a horrible pit road accident involving Bill Elliott's crew that ALMOST killed one of his crewman. NASCAR's response: sit on out hands. Fast forward to the 1990 season finale at Atlanta. In the cruelest of ironies, once again it is Bill Elliott's crew. Bill is leading, so TV is focusing on them during a round of pit stops. Suddenly the #5 car comes spinning wildly into the shot and slams the hell out of the 9 car, crushing their rear tire changer, sending Dan Elliott flying, and horrifying the national TV audience (including a 6 year old DSFF who can still recall that incident like it was yesterday). The tire changer was killed instantly, and by the 1991 Daytona 500 they had pit road rules in place. The original ones were horrible and needed a long time to refine, but they got there and NASCAR couldn't congratulate themselves enough. Ugh. 39. Anonymous posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JG24Fan, did you have to look all those words up or did you just remember them? Even I couldn't remember all of them." I had to look it up,since I forgot half the song. And Paul,wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I can't help it, i'm a southerner! But the biggest difference between the Dale of 95' and Dale of 00' is that 95' Dale was the reighning back-back champion and 00' Dale was a slightly faded post Fall Talladega 96' driver that was never quite the same again. 40. JG24FanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JG24Fan, did you have to look all those words up or did you just remember them? Even I couldn't remember all of them." I had to look it up,since I forgot half the song. And Paul,wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I can't help it, i'm a southerner! But the biggest difference between the Dale of 95' and Dale of 00' is that 95' Dale was the reigning back-back champion and 00' Dale was a slightly faded post Fall Talladega 96' driver that was never quite the same again. 41. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, that explains so much, yet so little :). It's all good. I'm a northerner so I sometimes take sarcastic/smart ass comments literally, even though I enjoy making them all the time. Here's a couple more head injury stories in NASCAR. LeeRoy Yarbrough, who had one of the greatest NASCAR seasons in 1969 (winning the Daytona 500, World 600, and Southern 500), suffered so many head injuries from crashes in his NASCAR (and IndyCar) career that by the mid-'70s, family members reported that he couldn't distinguish his left hand from his right hand. Then he was sent to a mental hospital after attempting to kill his mother, which most likely came as a result of a mental illness that emerged through his head injuries, before dying in 1984 after suffering yet another injury from a fall. So right there is a case of a former driver literally having his life ended as the result of many head injuries that eventually left him in a mental hospital. Another sad case is about Bobby Allison. You're right DSFF, for someone who has had his share of injuries, most notably the Pocono crash that ended his career, and losing two sons from racing accidents, he seems very at peace with his life and speaks quite well, though not perfectly as seen from when he was in the booth during the Dover race a few weeks ago. But I just read that as a result of his Pocono crash, he has no memory of the greatest day of his life, when he and Davey finished 1-2 in the Daytona 500 that same year. He said that he hopes someone will say something that will bring all the memories from that day back, but that he's basically accepted the fact that those memories may never come back to him. While both of those stories are truly sad and should have given NASCAR the hint that head injuries are in fact a reality in their sport and that they shouldn't turn a blind eye too, here's something I just read about a recent incident. It's well known that Eric McClure was badly injured at Talladega earlier this year, having suffered a concussion, bruised organs, and internal bleeding as the result of his horrific crash that was about 20 feet away from missing the SAFER barriers. He said that it was his decision to sit out for five races because he was thinking of his long-term health (something that is quite admirable for an athlete to do). Well, as it turns out he may have made that decision as a result of experiencing concussions earlier in his career. As it turns out, that was McClure's THIRD concussion in his NASCAR career. I'm wondering, did anybody hear anything about Eric and any prior injuries he may have suffered in his career? I sure as hell haven't. And why? Because Eric McClure is not a prominent figure in NASCAR. They look at him and think "Okay, this guy is a career mid-pack Nationwide driver. Who cares if he gets hurt." Then they look at the most prominent figure in the sport in Dale Earnhardt, Jr. and think "Whoa, our most popular driver just suffered his sixth (that we know of) injury in NASCAR. Let's announce that he'll be missing the next TWO WEEKS." That right there tells you how much NASCAR cars about its drivers. In the four case I just listed, each case shows the incompetence of NASCAR (under THREE different France administrations) over the years when dealing with head injuries. First we have LeeRoy Yarbrough, a great driver who spent the last decade of his life in a mental hospital as the result of many head injuries in his career (Bill France might have done something had LeeRoy not punched him in protest of the inaugural Talladega race in 1969). Then we have Bobby Allison, a champion and all-time great who had his career ended at Pocono as the result of many many injuries, one of which a head injury that has blocked out memories, including the day he and Davey finished 1-2 in the Daytona 500. Then this year we have two cases. One with Eric McClure, a veteran Nationwide driver who suffered his third concussion this year at Talladega, despite hitting the SAFER barrier in his Nationwide COT with the HANS device and window net, not to mention suffering bruise organs and internal bleeding. And now we have Dale Earnhardt, Jr., a 2-time NASCAR champion and the sport's biggest name, who has suffered his second concussion in six weeks and his sixth injury (that we know of) in his NASCAR career and now has to miss two race (hopefully the rest of the season) because he himself went out to see a doctor because he knew he wasn't in good condition. What I do like is that it seems like a lot of people (not just people on this board) are now talking about concussions in NASCAR and how NASCAR has to do something to protect the drivers' safety in the case of an injury. I hope that NASCAR actually does make changes to its safety program and at least pretends to care about the drivers' safety in the event of an accident and a resulting injury, and that this isn't just the "talk of the month". 42. Bronco posted: 10.12.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The pit road safety rules also fall in the category of HANS and SAFER barriers, the category of "this rule wasn't enacted until somebody died even though all the signs of a potential tragedy were right there, but NASCAR sat on their hands until somebody died on national TV, then belatedly, ade rules, then patted themselves on the back". Don't forget too about the 2001 Homestead race where Ward Burton clobbered Ricky Rudd's pit crew while they serviced the #28. It was that race that led NASCAR to mandate helmets for all the over the wall guys, even though the Cal Wells teams and CART had been using them previously. 43. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just to add to the pit road discussion, it wasn't until after Loudon 2003 that NASCAR ruled that drivers could not pass to the inside on pit road entry as a result of Gordon making that move on Michael Waltrip and the two making contact, sending Gordon's car into Jimmie Johnson's pit crew. Thank God that no crew members weren't seriously hurt as a result. Of course, there is no rule about cars trying to pass on pit road exit. I still cringe seeing cars side-by-side on pit road, passing by pit crews still going to work on other cars. Btw, have you guys seen the latest commercial for Charlotte? They changed it since the beginning of the week. At first it advertised how the big wreck at Talladega has shuffled the points standings (even though it really didn't, it just widened the lead Brad had) and that Brad, Jimmie, and Denny will battle for the points lead while Jeff and Junior try to make their way to the front. Now that Junior will be out of action, they removed him from the commercial. It's kind of like they went "Well, Junior's out of the picture. Scratch his name off the list." I found that disgusting. 44. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.12.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this is a little off topic, but i might have a new favorite rusty wallace quote. i was watching the nationwide race at gateway from fall 2010, and rusty said, i quote, "there's a trio of four or five cars fighting for position". apparently he was unaware that "trio" means three, not four or five. that ranks right up there with his "here comes trevor BRAIN on the outside" and his persistent pronouncing brad keselowski as "bread keselowski". 45. Talon64 posted: 10.12.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg Biffle earns his 3rd Sprint Cup Series pole of 2012, tying his career set which was set just last season, and the 12th pole of his career. It's his 1st pole in 20 career starts at Charlotte (19.3 avg start), his previous best being 3rd back in 2008, but it's his 3rd consecutive top 5 start there. Mark Martin will start 2nd for the 56th time in his career, and his 111th front row start in 850 career starts (13.05%). 46. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol, Rusty's commentary really hurts my NASCAR head injury argument. I just think he has Tiki Bardber Syndrome. Excellent when discussing himself and his own circumstances, flounders when speaking about others. 47. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think you can compare Rusty to Tiki. Rusty will at least talk about people other than himself. Plus, he has Tiki beat when it comes to the success of his team getting worse after he leaves, not better like the Giants got after Tiki took his ball and went home. 48. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said before Pro Wrestling is another example of a sport that is concussion prone as people have been suffering from basically the same effects as football players such as dementia depression and a miserable quality of life and in the case of Chris Benoit went completely insane. 49. MarkMartinFan posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really hope Dale Jr. decides to not get back into the car until he is completely ready. If he's not ready for Martinsville, he shouldn't get back into the car. He's not my favorite driver, but I really don't want to see him get really hurt. 50. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too many pink cars in the Nationwide race tonight. I half expect one of the spotters to lose their car if they become surrounded by other pink cars. I can tell that Denny Hamlin doesn't want to be in the Nationwide race tonight, as he'd rather just focus on his Cup car. He's already stated that he doesn't care to drive in the Nationwide Series, but having to do so during the Chase when he's a title contender has to be killing him. It's kind of funny because last year he didn't sign up for many Nationwide races because he expected to be a title contender, but was a non-factor all season; but this year he signed up for more Nationwide races because he wasn't sure how his season was going to go, and now he's in the thick of the title picture. Just another area where Jimmie Johnson has Denny beat. Also, Brad was asked if being in the Cup car this weekend helps him for the Nationwide race, and Brad said something on the lines of "not really." I laugh when I hear people say that running the Nationwide races helps the Cup drivers in the Cup race. Just look at Joey Logano. The cars drive much differently between the Nationwide and Cup Series, with horsepower being the most notable difference. The only drivers who can succeed at both levels are guys like Kyle, Brad, and Harvick, but that's mostly because they actually care to run Nationwide races. Guys like Gordon, Johnson, and Stewart are too concerned with winning the races that count to care about a meaningless Nationwide race. 51. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I think Regan Smith is going to have a great run tomorrow. He was 7th, 8th, and 2nd fastest in the three practice sessions, and had the 2nd fastest 10-lap average in final practice today. He may have qualified 26th, but he sounds pretty confident and got better as the weekend progressed. 52. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Cope twins give female drivers a bad rep. Angela ran into the back of Joe Nemechek before she got to the start/finish line and did a lot of damage to the radiator. 53. David posted: 10.12.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On PRN's broadcast, Hermie Sadler's pick to win the race was...Elliott Sadler!! 54. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The lack of "give 'n take" between Hornish and Allgaier puts both cars in the garage, badly damaging Hornish's right front and Allgaier's left front. Too early to be doing that. 55. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse drove the car a little too hard keeping it in the lead. Wore the tires out and fell from 1st to 4th. Fortunately for him, it happened just as green flag pit stops were beginning. Cole Whitt is really slow in this race. He's running 21st and has gone a lap down, while Danica is running in 12th. 56. murb posted: 10.12.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Cole Whitt is really slow in this race. He's running 21st and has gone a lap down, while Danica is running in 12th." I really thought Cole had a ton of potential earlier on in his East Series days, but since he's moved up to the top three series, he hasn't really been that great. He even looked really good at the beginning of last year in the Trucks, but he massively fell off. And this year in the 88 he hasn't done anything at all really, barring a couple of good runs. It does sound like Regan will be in one of those cars next year. He totally deserves it after getting screwed by Furniture Row. I know that Danica will be running a limited schedule for them, so maybe Regan will get the 88. As for Cole, I'm afraid I really don't see him becoming an elite driver. If he even gets to Cup, he'll probably just be another Aric Almirola or Casey Mears. 57. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn! Mike Bliss, who had a top ten run going before making an unscheduled pit stop for a broken shock absorber, lost it in the middle of turns 1 and 2, hit the outside wall, then hit the inside wall where there's no SAFER barrier. Something was wrong with the #19 car and he didn't just go around. The car was bouncing around on the track because the shocks were busted, and now they got a wrecked race car because they let an unsafe car back onto the track. I agree murb. I don't think Cole Whitt is as good as people make him out to be, though I do think he's better than the other red head Brad Sweet. The #3 team has been penalized for leaving the pit box while the right rear tire changer was still with his back to pit road. 58. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nobody does a better job at wrecking themselves than Brad Sweet. From his interview, it sounds like something broke on Bliss' car that punctured the tire, which caused him to hit the wall. I still don't like that the inside wall in the corners doesn't have a SAFER barrier. I know that it's unlikely that cars will hit it because the banking will more than likely send them to the outside wall, but it is possible as seen from Bliss' crash. 59. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gentleman" Ned Jarrett makes an appearance in the booth. Today is his 80th birthday and he doesn't look a day older than 65. 60. jabber1990 posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "follow ESPN when it hosts the Gamecocks *giggles like Peter Griffin* and all this other ESPN stuff and by the way were under caution" 61. jabber1990 posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ned Jarret is 80? how old is Richard Petty? hes close to 80 isnt he? and DW is in his mid 70's right? 62. jabber1990 posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ned Jarret is 80? how old is Richard Petty? hes close to 80 isnt he? and DW is in his mid 70's right? 63. David posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Petty turned 75 on July 2nd and Waltrip turned 65 on February 5th. 64. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Wes Townley was in 15th place and on the lead lap, but apparently he hit the wall and is now five laps down. In their brilliance, ESPN missed the whole thing. 65. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I missed Gentleman Ned cause I'm at work. That sucks. 66. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly John Wrecks Weekly 67. David posted: 10.12.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another win for Joey Logano. Good grief... 68. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The old saying for these cars, especially the Chevy Luminas, was "Win on Sundays, sell on Mondays." For Joey Logano, the saying becomes "Dominate on Saturdays, invisible on Sundays." Technically today is Friday, but you know what I mean. Brad had a 2nd place run going, but he left his pit box before the car was filled with fuel. He ran out with about 3 laps to go and finishes 18th. Oh well, this race meant nothing to him, so who cares. Danica actually ran really well in this race, finishing 11th and just getting lapped coming to the checkered flag. Reed Sorenson finished 12th with a part-time team. Cole Whitt rebounded from having a very slow car at the beginning to finish 13th, one lap down. Jeff Green and Joe Nemechek were in the top 15 before that final pit stop, but wind up 16th and 17th. Joe finished 17th after getting rear-ended before taking the green flag by the blonde. Jeremy Clements and Robert Richardson get solid top 20 finishes. Kevin Lepage ran the distance for just the second time in that #86 car, and Stanton Barrett posted his best finish since Road America 2010. Stenhouse hit the wall and bent the rear spoiler, but pulled out of pit road before the crew could fix it, costing himself a top five finish and loses four points to Sadler. Allgaier's incident with Hornish was costly as he lost 5th place to Michael Annett in the points. I know Hornish is the one who slid up into him (spotter told him he was clear when he wasn't), but a smarter driver would have let Hornish clear him coming out of turn 4 13 laps into a race. 69. Paul posted: 10.12.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For a Nationwide race at Charlotte that was largely dominated by Cup drivers, this race was actually pretty good. A lot of side-by-side racing and the leader never got too far ahead of the field. There were a couple points where there was a 4-way battle for the lead. That said, I don't think the racing tomorrow will top tonight's. 70. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.12.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad I missed that one. 71. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention this earlier, but I was really impressed with how Brad handled that situation after the race was over after running out of fuel with 4 laps to go while running in the top five. He was obviously disappointed in the end result, but instead of pointing the finger or acting immature during the interview, he calmly stated that the team as a whole has some things they need to work on and get better at, but that he's proud of his guys for giving a good effort and that hopefully they'll work out the bugs in time for the next race at Kansas. He wasn't disappointed in his team for making an error that cost him the race, but rather he was disappointed because they were flawless all race long and then made a critical error at the very end that cost them a shot at the win. He wasn't disappointed in them, he was disappointed for them. It reminded me of his interview after getting caught up in the "Big One" in the Nationwide race at Daytona in July when he was smiling and saying "that's just good hard racing". That may be Brad's greatest quality, in that he never blames other people and he understands that things happen that are out of your control during a race and you just have to play the cards you're dealt. Seeing how cheerful Brad is after a loss and seeing how upset Kyle Busch is after a loss is just amazing. I remember a Nationwide race at Iowa back in '09 (Kyle's championship season) and his reply to Mike Massaro when told that he tied Jack Ingram's record of nine straight top 2 finishes (which he broke the next week) was "Just imagine if all those seconds [place finishes] were wins." Now on paper that sounds like a competitive driver who considers 2nd place the first loser, but seeing how disgusted and miserable he looked knowing that he could only finish 2nd was just appalling, like it wasn't good enough for him. I'm sure glad I don't have to work for him, as there's a 98% chance he's going to be in a bad mood after a race (42 divided by 43). Btw, do you know who won that race at Iowa? Yep, Brad Keselowski. 72. MarkMartinFan posted: 10.13.2012 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the rumors I have heard are true and Elliott Sadler and Brian Vickers drive full time Nationwide cars for Gibbs next year, I believe they will be 1-2 in the championship and dominate the season. 73. 10andJoe posted: 10.13.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Regan Smith would give them a run for their money if he gets in the 7. 74. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nothing is official yet, but more than likely Sadler and Vickers will run the full Nationwide schedule for JGR in 2013, with both of them running a part-time Cup car for JGR (4th car) and MWR, respectively, while the third Nationwide car will be split amongst Hamlin, Kenseth, and development drivers Darrell Wallace, Jr. and Drew Herring (no mentions of McDowell or Ryan Truex). Hamlin and Kenseth will only be there to help fund the third team as I think both of them would rather focus on Cup (Hamlin doesn't like running double-duty and Kenseth is content with his lack of Nationwide races the past three seasons), so hopefully JGR focuses on developing Wallace and Herring in that car, as both of them have a lot of talent. I give the advantage to Sadler at being the top JGR Nationwide driver next season. Vickers hasn't won a Nationwide race since his 2003 championship season and has only run a few races in these Nationwide COTs. I expect Sadler and Austin Dillon to battle for the championship, while Vickers takes some time adjusting to these cars before getting comfortable with them, but will still finish in the top five in points and maybe win a race. 75. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10andJoe, if Regan Smith does in fact get the #7 car (and odds are he will), I think his biggest challenge will be getting that car to run fast on a weekly basis as that car has yet to show consistency, and JR Motorsports hasn't had a consistent driver/car since Brad Keselowski when he drove the #88 in '08 and '09. Josh Wise had some good runs in that car last year and Regan has him beat as far as talent goes. Seeing Regan, a former Cup winner, driving for JRM next year will be the biggest indicator of how good that program is. Right now they're working with two inexperienced drivers, who are both in their first full Nationwide season, and aren't that good at providing good information to the crew chief. Putting a former Cup winner in that seat will truly determine whether it was the cars or the drivers who were holding the team back, and something tells me it's the latter. 76. joey2448 posted: 10.13.2012 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Too many pink cars in the Nationwide race tonight. I half expect one of the spotters to lose their car if they become surrounded by other pink cars." -posted by Paul I'm glad to see people supporting a good cause, but this pink business is getting out of control, IMO. Not only are half the damn cars out there bright pink, but even the track is pink! The start/finish line and the Charlotte name alongside is pink. I mean, really??? 77. 10andJoe posted: 10.13.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Indeed. I think everyone gets it by now. There comes a point where it's nothing more than (and nothing short of) obnoxious. 78. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nothing is official yet, but more than likely Sadler and Vickers will run the full Nationwide schedule for JGR in 2013" Yeah, I for one am really happy to see this (hopefully) going down. Elliott has always been one of my favorites, and to see him winning all these races at RCR but still getting overshadowed by "The Cowboy Kid" is really aggravating. Now he will be the top dog over at JGR's NNS stable, and he'll also have a wingman in Vickers, so to speak. I'm really starting to like this positive direction that JGR is going in. Obviously, Kyle still has his problems every now and then. But look at it this way: They bring in Kenseth (proven champion, class act) to replace Logano (not a champion, not a class act), and they are most likely bringing in another class guy in Elliott Sadler who will add even more veteran leadership to the whole organization. They're also getting rid of Brian Scott from what it looks like, and they are focusing on the young guys like Wallace and Herring. And hell, even Denny Hamlin is finally maturing into a much more respectable personality. I think they've done a really smart job over the last month or so as far as aligning their roster goes. They are improving as a whole for sure. 79. irony posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully Darrell Wallace is in the equation? I don't keep up with the silly season anymore. The Cup points would be much closer without the Chase. 80. Spen posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think they said Wallace would be running 6 or so races next year. I don't remember the exact number offhand, but it was somewhere in that ballpark. 81. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Dad just said it best: "Logano is just a Triple A driver". 82. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) anyone else think it's hilarious that timmy hill and cole whitt have been getting opportunites to run cup races recently and justin allgaier (a multi-time race winner who would have been the 2010 nns champion under today's rules) hasn't even attempted a cup race in his entire four year nationwide series career? for todays owners, a guy who will bring the car home in one piece is a better prospect that a guy who can have good runs but also might tear up the car. as of right now, and from the rate he's tearing up cars and racing overaggressively, allgaier is looking like a career minor-league racer. 83. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "as of right now, and from the rate he's tearing up cars and racing overaggressively, allgaier is looking like a career minor-league racer." I used to think he might become the next Mark Martin, but now it looks like he's the next Jason Leffler. That's a pretty big downgrade. 84. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RIP CJS'S Youtube Channel. 85. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, you can't get rid of your channel, Jeff still ain't out of this points battle. We still might need to see those 24 backflips. And yes, if he falls short, I will send you $24. 86. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " Regan Smith would give them a run for their money if he gets in the 7. " I don't think he would, JR Motorsports sucks. 87. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Regan does end up at JRM, I expect him to be top five in points for sure. I see him running as the 3rd - 6th best NNS regular. As for the championship, I think it would be awesome to see an Elliott vs Austin showdown. Elliott in a JGR car going up against his former team and teammate. You also have to mention Trevor Bayne in the NNS championship conversation, as he is supposedly gonna take Stenhouse's spot in the 6 car. Speaking of Trevor, he's my darkhorse pick for tonight. He's starting 16th, and one of his strengths is usually these types of tracks, so I look for a good run out of him. Stenhouse should also be good, just as long as he doesn't stupidly overdrive it. But I was really impressed with him at Dover, so I'm looking for him to duplicate that performance. Lastly, I just want to reiterate how I'm just having a really hard time seeing anyone beating Keselowski for this championship. Yeah, Jimmie has been fantastic as well. But Brad and the 2 team are running just as well and sometimes better at all of the styles of tracks thus far. The only places that I really see as a question mark for Brad are Martinsville and Phoenix. But otherwise, Brad and his team have just been outracing and more importantly, outsmarting the 48 team in all aspects. We might be seeing a changing of the guard here this year. 88. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty, that may be true, but we won't know for sure until we see a veteran driver who has won in NASCAR like Regan Smith get behind the wheel of a JRM car and see how he performs. I think a lot of their problems has to do with the drivers and the constant shuffling of crew chiefs that has contributed to their lack of success the past two years. Brad, Jamie Mac, and Dale Jr. have all had success with that team, and even Ron Fellows is always a threat to win when he runs the road courses. I think a lot of their downfall has got to do with their current driver lineup and the inexperience and lack of good car feedback from those two drivers. Regan will certainly give that team a boost should he get that ride next season, and I think his performance will be a good indicator as to how good or bad that team really is. I put minor league drivers who flounder in Cup into one of four categories: There's the "Ron Hornaday" category, which is made up of drivers who had great success in the Busch/Truck Series, but never had much success in Cup; there's the "Jason Leffler" category, which is made up of drivers who had little success in Busch/Truck and (not surprisingly) had little to no success in Cup; there's the "Jason Keller" category, which is made up of drivers who had success in Busch/Truck, but waited too long and eventually lost their opportunity at a Cup ride; and there's the new "Kevin Conway" category, which is made up of drivers who had no success in Busch/Truck, but got a Cup ride because of the money/sponsorship they brought to the table. Allgaier has unfortunately put himself in the "Jason Leffler" category because although he has talent, he's made numerous bone-headed moves that most likely damaged his Cup hopes and hasn't had a lot of success in the minor leagues (yeah he won an ARCA title, but only because Scott Speed intentionally wrecked Stenhouse [who is a champion] in the final race). 89. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Benjamin Lowe, I got rid of that YouTube channel because I had two strikes on it (from my uploads of Super Bowls I-XX, which I had planned to continue), and a third would have meant permanent termination. I couldn't risk that, so I deleted that channel and replaced it today with a new channel. There aren't any videos up on it yet, but I intend to put the sane videos up on it that I had before, but I must wait four months to do anything of over 15 minutes. And murb, I mentioned on the Nationwide race comments page that I thought that Trevor would have that team, all things being equal 20-30 points ahead of Elliott Sadler (if not more), even with fewer wins, than 13 points behind. The reason being that he's not as likely to throw away points like Stenhouse does. Last night's race was a perfect example. Stenhouse has a top three car and hits the wall for no reason, damaging the rear spoiler, which resulted in a long pit stop under caution. To make matters worse, Stenhouse not only did not want to hear his lap times, he tells his crew chief he doesn't care, and says so again when he's told that he's as fast as the leaders. This is why I think his season next year in #17 Cup car may be a train wreck, especially with nobody there to mentor him. Roush may know what he's doing by not giving Stenhouse the #6 after all. It's almost as if Roush knows that Stenhouse doesn't have what it take pressure of driving his #6 car. Just like Kasey Kahne appears to be the true heir to Terry Labonte in the #5 car at Hendrick Motorsports (in apologies to the three drivers that had it previously after Terry Labonte got out of the seat), Roush seems to think that Trevor Bayne may be the true heir to Mark Martin in the #6 car, something I brought up a couple of weeks ago. As talented and fast as Stenhouse is, he's also prone to mistakes. And even Brad Daugherty has figured that out, saying so on NASCAR Now last week. And if he's able to figure that out, certainly his competition can, as well. And the one he committed last night ended up in him losing points on a night where he should have gained them. And he lost time on the clock, as there are now just four races left in the Nationwide season. 90. Bronco posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and there's the new "Kevin Conway" category, which is made up of drivers who had no success in Busch/Truck, but got a Cup ride because of the money/sponsorship they brought to the table." Lol, is there even anyone else in this category? Paul Menard doesn't count since he actually did a solid job in the Busch series and does have driving talent. 91. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I wouldn't put Paul Menard in that category because he did have some success in the Nationwide Series, including being one of only two non-Cup drivers to win in 2006 (the other being David Gilliland). That category could also be known as the "buy-a-ride" category as seen from some of the guys who have driven for FAS Lane Racing (#32) this year, including Jason White (in place of JWT), T.J. Bell, and Timmy Hill, as well as Cole Whitt who now drives the #33 for Joe Falk. I'm not saying those guys aren't talented, but their lack of success in the Nationwide/Truck Series shouldn't constitute them into getting a Cup ride (though I do think Timmy Hill has done very well in spite of his equipment). 92. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Paul Menard doesn't count since he actually did a solid job in the Busch series and does have driving talent." YES! Finally someone notices the fantastic job he has done in the Nationwide Series. Just because drivers bring their own sponsorship, often from family ties, doesn't mean they have no talent. And as far as the Cup side goes, he is a serviceable driver, and gets top-15 finishes out of mediocre runs. 93. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) the nationwide championship will definately be interesting next year. sadler and vickers in gibbs cars, dillon, bayne in the #6, maybe regan smith in the #88, and don't forget james buescher as well. i think he's ready to move up to nationwide full-time, and with great clips stepping up to sponsor him in the track race a couple weeks ago and in the nationwide race tonight, don't be surprised to see buescher in the #38 great clips car full-time next year. 94. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb-comparing justin allgaier to jason leffler is just perfect. what's ironic is that last year they were teammates. eventually, allgaier will probably get into some sort of cup ride, and then, like leffler, he'll be back in the nationwide series within a season or two. 95. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, that's interesting how you predict Trevor Bayne would be 20-30 points ahead of Sadler rather than being 13 points behind like how Stenhouse is because of how similar their (Trevor and Sadler's) driving styles are, and Austin Dillon's too. None of them are going to push their equipment too hard and are willing to settle for a top five rather than risk tearing the car up going for the win. The points battle next year should be interesting as none of those three are ones to drive aggressively like Stenhouse has, and it'll be fun seeing which one of them can make the least mistakes as that driver will most likely win the championship. I think what may end up costing Stenhouse the title are, among other things, his self-inflicted wounds from Dover in the spring and Montreal, as he probably cost himself at least 30 points in those two races alone. Both races he was running in 2nd (how he got to 2nd at Montreal, I don't know), and both times he wrecked himself and wound up finishing 32nd and 12th. His wreck at Montreal is more acceptable because he was trying to pass Villeneuve for the lead late in the race, but he wrecked himself for no reason at Dover and lost 30 points from that race alone. I know he had bad finishes at Charlotte and Michigan as well, but those were equipment-related and out of his control. If he loses this championship, you can bet that the Dover crash was the largest contributing factor. Trevor more than likely won't have five wins next year that Stenhouse has this year, but one thing he won't do is take himself out of races the way Stenhouse has. He had a top three run going last night until he bent the splitter by hitting the wall and refusing to listen to his crew chief afterwards. He cost himself points at both Kentucky races, first for running over his pit crew (and not taking the blame) and then for hitting the wall and finishing 17th. He tried to pass JV for the lead at Montreal at a part of the track where cars aren't supposed to pass one another. And he was running in 2nd at Dover but took himself out by driving the car too hard and losing it off turn 2 when nobody was around him, hitting the inside wall and losing about 30 points in the process. All these self-inflicted wounds add up and may very well cost Ricky a championship this season. Trevor could very well win the Nationwide title next year, or at least be a contender, because he doesn't do anything that costs himself points. 96. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Roush's cars are faster than Childress' cars are, Paul. But Trevor, as you mentioned, is usually not going to beat himself. If ever there would have been a situation where he would've beat himself, it would have been in last year's Daytona 500, but he let everyone else beat themselves. Now Bayne would not have the wins that Stenhouse has, but he's not the kind of driver that would tear up cars like Stenhouse does. Last night's race was another example. Stenhouse shohuld have gained about two or three points on Sadler, but instead he made a mistake which resulted in a four-point loss, or a net loss of seven. Now I'm not saying Bayne doesn't make mistakes, but they just don't seem to be as bad, or dumb as the ones we see Stenhouse make. Bayne's had a few races where he's hit the wall early in the race, because he was running too high, but they weren't mistakes where he was being too aggressive. Plus, as he showed in the fall Nationwide races at Charlotte and Texas last year, he can turn it up into another gear when he has to. But another thing that's starting to bother me about Stenhouse is his attitude on the radio when things aren't going right. Again, using last night's race as an example, he seems to not care about how he's doing if he falls behind. when his crew chief (Mike Kelley) was giving him lap times, Stenhouse told him not to, and when he told Stenhouse that he was running as fast as the leader, Stenhouse told him he didn't care. That's not something I'd want to hear out of my driver if I was his crew chief. Not to mention Stenhouse's growing problem of not taking responsibility for doing anything wrong. Again, he's not as bad as the Busch brothers (nobody can be THAT bad), he's starting to get moodier on the radio during races when he's not doing as good as he should. 97. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those are good points in post 89, cjs. I think DSFF mentioned a couple weeks ago how odd it is to see a conservative driver (Austin Dillon) driving the famous 3 car (driven by a hard charger, Dale Earnhardt). And in addition, the formerly conservative 6 car (with Mark Martin) is now being driven by a hard charging Ricky Stenhouse. And now, with Stenhouse taking over the previously conservative 17 car next year, this trend looks like it will continue. As for Stenhouse's first full year in Cup, I'm expecting just an okay year. 15th - 20th in points, some top tens, and perhaps an upset fuel mileage win somewhere. Dave #38, I agree, Buescher definitely deserves to go full time into NNS. Especially if he wins that Truck title this year. But recently, I heard Ray Dunlap talking about how Turner Motorsports has some questions about its future. There were rumors that they would leave Nascar all together after this year, but Steve Turner shot those down and said they'd be back in NNS and Trucks. But if I was Buescher (or one of their other promising young guys like Piquet), I think I would start looking around at other places to go. Because by now, with as much success as they have had, I would have thought that they would have at least talked a little bit about expanding into Cup within the next couple of years. But Turner hasn't even talked about what their long term goals are. I just don't know if I would take my chances with Turner and rumors like that going around if I was driving for them. 98. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No less than six cars will be headed to the rear of the field tonight. 99. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HAHAHA!!! Did any of you see Ryan Newman? He was dressed up like Raphael of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Good God that was random! 100. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, the only way I see Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. in the top 20 next year is if there are as many or fewer competitve cars next year as there are this year. The reason I say that has to do with all the crashes he's likely to have next year. If he finishes 15th in points next year, I'll be shocked. And a fuel mileage win? You've got to be kidding. First of all, Roush's cars don't get the best mileage, but Stenhouse is about the last driver that would be capable of winning such a race. If he were to win a race next year, it would either be through how Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman got their wins this year (with others wrecking in front of them on a late restart), or in a restrictor plate race, if he's not in the garage with a wrecked race car. 18th-22nd in points would probably be where he's likely to finish because of all the crashes he's likely to have. 101. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just thought of something. 10 years ago in this race, Jamie McMurray, subbing for an injured Sterling Marlin, pulled out an upset win over Bobby Labonte. Go get it tonight, Regan. 102. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even more coincidentally murb, Sterling Marlin was injured at Kansas. 103. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kid Rock doing a segment for ESPN? Lame. 104. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Add Ray Evernham to the list of people who have suffered concussions in their racing career. He said that three concussions in a row ended his driving career. I mentioned on a previous race page that I predicted that Stenhouse would go winless and wouldn't be a factor for the Chase next year. I think the quicker he gets the hang of these cars, the better he will be going into the 2014 season. Brad Daugherty thinks that Tony Stewart has a better shot at winning the title than Gordon or Bowyer. You have got to be kidding me. Stewart is four point behind Gordon, hasn't won a race (or come close to winning) in three months, and has finished 19th or worse six times in the last nine races. It's ignorant to give Gordon and Bowyer no chance at winning the title, and it's absurd to think that Stewart will turn things around this deep in the Chase. Does he even look at the current numbers, or does he just look at Stewart's five wins in last year's Chase and think he's going to do it again? Some expert he is. 105. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually David, Sterling injured his neck at Richmond and aggravated those injuries the following week at Kansas. 106. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, you're right, there's no doubt in my mind either that he will tear up a bunch of stuff. But after all, you have to admit that he has done a decent job in his three Cup starts prior to tonight. I think he'll be fast enough, and he will be competitive. But like we said, he's most likely going to have a bunch of wrecks. Inconsistency will be his biggest downfall. Maybe the fuel mileage win is stretching it, but I do expect him to be at least in contention to win at least one race somehow. Once (or if) he gets his head in the right direction and stops making idiotic mistakes, then I think he will be a good Cup driver. 107. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Brad Daugherty thinks that Tony Stewart has a better shot at winning the title than Gordon or Bowyer." lol, Classic Daugherty. I think he's a cool guy, but he has absolutely no business being an analyst for Nascar. If it was a perfect world, they would just replace him with Ricky Craven. Sure, some people think he's incredibly boring (I don't - he's got dry humor that ranks right up with Matt Kenseth), but I think ESPN could use someone who actually knows what they are talking about. 108. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS you should have told the NFL to f**k OFF and leave you alone. 109. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #105 I know that cjs, but he actually had to sit out the rest of the season because of the crash at Kansas. I was just trying to make it sound more predestinational (very likely that there's a better term). 110. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No it's not ignorant to say that Gordon, Kahne, and Bowyer have no shot at the title, because they're a full race behind. Kahne's 36 points behind, Bowyer's 40 points behind, and Gordon's 42 behind. They can't possibly make all that up without some help from Keselowski and Johnson (14 behind). However, any or all of those are close enough to Denny Hamlin (23 points behind) to catch him. Remember that the most anyone can gain or lose in a race is 37-40 points, depending on the number of start-and-parks, not 47 points as everyone says. Again, the start-and-parks really change the math, in terms of the number of points that can be gained or lost in a single race, because they take up about 8-12% of the points a driver can gain or lose in a single race. Now there will be fewer of them in this race with Stenhouse and Bayne in the field, but I still expect up to six or seven cars to park early. That would make the last place finisher among those that actually tries to run the race earning seven or eight points, instead of one. That's a big difference. As of now, only three drivers can win the title, but if Keselowski has a problem, that could change. 111. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, Sterling's Richmond crash came three weeks before his Kansas crash. 112. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Daugherty is a moron, he shouldn't be a NASCAR analyst simply because he owns a car and likes racing. 113. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin Lowe, I think it's the Super Bowls and individual game film uploads they (the NFL) have a problem with, because I had other NFL Films stuff up there for nearly a year and never had a problem with them, and many others have complete NFL programs, including the Super Bowl documentary series, and even full Super Bowl telecasts and they don't seem to be having problems with them. And David, Marlin had to sit out the rest of the 2002 season because of what they found after his wreck at Kansas, but he actually fractured his neck at Richmond. They just didn't discover it until after the wreck at Kansas. 114. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, there may only be five start-and-parks in this race. Michael McDowell is running the full race and Dave Blaney will probably do the same because J.J. Yeley will serve as the TBR start-and-park car. 115. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I heard correctly, Vince Welch just said that this track used to be named "Lowe's Motor Speedway" because Jimmie Johnson was so good here. lol 116. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin looking like a boss. 117. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay Paul, but the the fact remains that Marlin was injured at Richmond, but it wasn't discovered until after his wreck at Kansas. 118. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sabotage! 119. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jackass in the Hat 120. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mission accomplished." - Jack Roush 121. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that also explains Marlin's drop in performance following his Richmond crash. He had only four finishes of 21st of worse in the first 25 races, then had four straight at Richmond, Loudon, Dover, and Kansas. Kenseth spins out and flat-spotted the left rear tire. He said something might be broke in the rear of the car. 122. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch up from 21st to 12th early. 123. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My respect for Jack Roush as a person just keeps going further and further down the drain. CJS said it best on here once before, "he treats his drivers as tools, not people". 124. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big crash right on the restart. 125. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Huh!?! 126. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big wreck with Burton. Mark spun his tires on the restart, so you could see that chain reaction coming. 127. New14 & 88Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big wreck on the restart, I hope this doesn't turn into a crashfest. 128. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't even make it to the start/finish for them to wreck and get Kenseth the lucky dog. 129. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart has damage after hitting Brad K. 130. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or not, Scott Speed gets the lucky dog. 131. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think that accident would have happened under a single-file restart. Tough break for Kenseth, as Scott Speed just went a lap down and gets the free pass. "he treats his drivers as tools, not people" If only he would use those tools (the real things, not his drivers), Kenseth might have actually been a contender for the title. 132. Jim Davis posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My respect for Jack Roush as a person just keeps going further and further down the drain." Is there video of Roush underneath the 17 with a hacksaw that I've missed? 133. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why do they need to run so many Caution laps? 134. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin, a former teammate of Kenseth's during his years at Roush, spins his tires intentionally so the chain reaction will damage a few cars badly enough to bring out the caution and give Kenseth the free pass. Sounds pretty good for a conspiracy theory, doesn't it? 135. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, Scott Speed is the lucky dog. 136. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David is the second man in 5 minutes to gaff a conspiracy theory about Kenseth. 137. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate this "in-race reporter" crap that ESPN does. They shouldn't be allowed to talk to a driver during the race and risk interrupting their concentration. 138. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is there video of Roush underneath the 17 with a hacksaw that I've missed?" No, but it seems pretty obvious to me that something is going on. Kenseth even said last week after he won that there had been tensions within the team the previous few weeks because of all those mechanical failures. Something just seems fishy about it all. 139. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nah, Mark Martin wouldn't do that. 140. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2 cautions already, and we're not even 25 laps in. I hope the saying that cautions breed cautions don't prove to be prophetic tonight. 141. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sounds pretty good for a conspiracy theory, doesn't it?" It would be, except I don't think Mark has a relationship with Jack Roush anymore. Bobby Labonte was slow on the backstretch and comes to pit road. He might have a flat tire. 142. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's about to be passed by the #78 while running in the Top 10. 143. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damnit, I need to check my eyes(and Brain) 144. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith passes his old ride for 14th spot. 145. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith just drove around Kurt Busch. Gotta love it! 146. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan is tearing up through this field. He seriously might have a shot at contending for this win. 147. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It would be, except I don't think Mark has a relationship with Jack Roush anymore." Exactly. That's why he would do that, to spite Roush. 148. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another caution for Paul Menard hitting the wall. 149. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ Martin does have a relationship with Kenseth though. 150. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard blowing up. Burton blew up in practice, so it looks like they are having engine trouble this weekend. We could break the 22 cautions mark from the '05 Coke 600 at this rate, lol 151. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) nice to see jack roush reward matt kenseth for 12 1/2 years of loyalty by pissing all over him. and 2 of the 3 childress cars have had problems so far. good. 152. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, my point is that even if Mark were to spite Jack, he wouldn't do so by taking out a driver who Jack himself might be spiting. If anything, he'd try and take out Biffle since they're both up at the front. Paul Menard hit the wall. 153. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My bad, he didn't blow up, he hit the wall. 154. Jim Davis posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kenseth even said last week after he won that there had been tensions within the team the previous few weeks because of all those mechanical failures. Something just seems fishy about it all." It strikes you as "fishy" that there would be tensions on a team with a string of mechanical failures? 155. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, that smoke coming from Menard's care was from a tire rub as a result of him hitting the wall, not engine smoke. Speaking of Jeff Burton, it's just not been his weekend. On Thursday he qualifies slower than a start-and-park car that missed the race (Joe Nemechek), yesterday he blew a motor, now tonight he had to start in the back after an engine change and gets caught up in an early wreck on a restart. 156. jabber1990 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) what am I missing? there is no MRN station here and ESPN is airing the LSU game instead 157. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "from Menard's care" *car 158. Jim Davis posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "what am I missing? there is no MRN station here and ESPN is airing the LSU game instead" Try ABC. 159. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It strikes you as "fishy" that there would be tensions on a team with a string of mechanical failures?" Ever since he's announced his departure from Roush, he's been running mediocre and been having weird things happen. Before he announced his departure, he had been running well all year and had been leading the points for a number of weeks. It's just the way I see it. Believe what you want. 160. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess Gordon is gonna always take four to the majority's two all night and continuously lose positions after each and every pit-stop. 161. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm a little surprised Blaney parked his car in this race. I guess TBR could only afford to run one car tonight. 162. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Miracle of miracles, I can actually watch the race because ABC is coming in. Usually we never get their signal. 163. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski's car looks awesome tonight. 164. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DAMN IT!!!!! 165. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith blew up. 166. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DAMN IT!!!!!" Yep. 167. New14 & 88Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Though break for Regan Smith, he was really giving that #88 car a ride. 168. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn. I wanted to see Regan get a top 10 to rub it in to FRR. At least now I can focus all of my attention on rooting for Brad. 169. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith done for the night. 170. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We are about to enter "Jimmie Johnson mode" 171. Alex posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heartbreaker for Regan... 172. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's a real shame for Regan as he was in the top ten at the time. Either way, he did a great job tonight and that #88 team is in good hands if Junior can't come back this season. 173. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess Johnson will be in front after the break to continue the tradition of being on commercial break during a lead change. 174. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But if I'm with Hendrick Motorsports, I've got to be concerned, because Ryan Newman had an engine problem in yesterday's final practice after qualifying third. If ather Hendrick engine has problems, they'll have something to worry about, just like at Michigan. And remember what I said about the potential problems that a 500-mile race on a high-speed track is bound to cause teams to have. That's why I say that things could happen at Charlotte and Texas. And remember that the racre at Michigan where HMS had the eignie problems was a 400-mile race. 175. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CLOSE call for Keselowski and Johnson. 176. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie came within inches of running into Brad as he came to pit road. 177. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And cjs, remember that at Michigan both Johnson and Gordon had engine failures. Johnson had one while leading, while Gordon had one while outside the top 10. Because they both had engine failures while running at different spots on the leaderboard, and because Gordon isn't as fast as Johnson on the horsepower tracks this year, nobody is safe in the HMS engine camp from suffering an engine failure. I just realized this is the first time in four years that Regan Smith has had to mention a sponsor in an interview, as he's driven for the team sponsored FRR in recent years. 178. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1-2-3 in the points are running 1-2-3. I smell a commercial driven conspiracy;) 179. cjs3872 posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul, remember that Tony Stewart also had an engine problem in that race t Michigan, and Johnson had an engine problem in final practice, so Hendrick had four engine problems that weekend. 180. JG24FanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good to see Gordon having pathetically slow race. 181. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think AJ is doing a good job in that car for not being in a car for three months and getting a last minute call to drive. Too bad that Finch is either gonna close down or let Brian Scott buy his way into that ride. 182. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the crime of ruining NASCAR Brian France and Bruton Smith should both be sentenced to death by exile. 183. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Regan Smith is a real race car driver unlike that talentless piece of trash known as Dale Jr. 184. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought something was up when Jimmie Johnson was passed by four lapped cars. Turns out, he was just trying to get to pit road. 185. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For the crime of ruining NASCAR Brian France and Bruton Smith should both be sentenced to death by exile." You can't sentence to death AND exile. Exile is forcing someone to leave and never return, while death is...pretty similar actually. Aric Almirola has to be paying attention for when a car in front of him is coming to pit road. Jimmie had his hand out the window signalling that he was pitting, but Aric got right to his rear bumper in the turn and forced Jimmie to forgo his pit stop for another lap. It's good thing Jimmie was paying attention, otherwise they might have gotten together. It wouldn't be so bad for either party if A.J. stayed with Phoenix Racing next season. Finch needs money and A.J. certainly looks the part of a driver who can represent a sponsor, plus A.J. may have to prove himself to other teams by humbling himself. So this might be the perfect pair for 2013. 186. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ambrose licked the wall pretty good. 187. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ambrose hit the wall and shifted the rear deck lid over by about 8 inches. That change in aerodynamics might cause him to spin out if he's not careful. 188. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Now he's taken it to the garage. 189. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul have you ever seen the Dark Knight rises because in that movie there is a scene where someone gets exiled which in that case means walking across a frozen river. 190. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kid Rock, please shut up. 191. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll say it again: Who SERIOUSLY likes Kid Rock? Is it just me...or is the caution out for a beer can on the track? 192. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A can at the exit of pit road brings out the caution. 193. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bruton probably threw that can out there because he wants a half time break. 194. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes I have Benjamin. I guess it is possible to have both. Caution for debris. Looked like a beverage can near pit road exit. 195. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't put it past Bruton for being the man who called that caution. He himself said earlier this season that he wants NASCAR to throw more cautions. 196. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) someone should throw a grenade out onto the track or fire a bazooka at one of the cars might make things more interesting. 197. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biffle!! 198. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, that was a power move by Biffle. 199. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like the #48 team's plan of changing just 2 tires coming back to bite them. 200. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have too question WHY Chad toke 2 tires? Hello, earth to Chad are you there? 201. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Utterly stupid move by the #48 to take 2 tires under that caution. 202. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Epic three-way battle for the lead between Biffle, Keselowski, and Hamlin. 203. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mears is slow. 204. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Disregard that last comment. 205. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) did anyone else hear one of the announcers say "kyle busch has been coming on these guys all night"? they could have found a MUCH better way to phrase that. 206. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dadgum. Jeff speeds on pit road. 207. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, that might just end Gordon's title hopes. 208. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just saw this on ESPN's ticker: 16. #17 Kenseth -2 17. J. Gordon -1 209. Goonsquad posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution for molecules 210. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Definitely a bad break for Gordon, but he really hasn't been that great all night so it isn't as huge of a blow. Kenseth finally gets the lucky dog. Hamlin and Johnson pit while Brad, Biffle, and Kyle stay out. Interesting. 211. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Updated error: 16. #17 Kenseth -2 17. #24 J. Gordon -1 212. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going, going, gone. So goes my ABC signal. Back to PRN. 213. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Paul and that is why I would sentence Brian France and Bruton Smith to death by exile by having them walk across a frozen riven until the ice cracks and they fall into the water and become nothing more but a couple of ice cubes. 214. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok Winston Salem, please behave for the next hour so I can finish watching this race. 215. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Carl just randomly shows up in the top five. It's amazing how invisible he has been this year. 216. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh man, Brad looks like he's out!!! 217. Schroeder51 posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski ran himself out of gas. 218. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad ran out of gas down the backstretch. 219. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad runs out of gas early, that hurts. 220. Baker posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well thats just great. It was a good effort while it lasted, but another Championship just fell into Jimmie Johnson's lap simply because his team screws up less than the other teams. 221. Rusty posted: 10.13.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Well thats just great. It was a good effort while it lasted, but another Championship just fell into Jimmie Johnson's lap simply because his team screws up less than the other teams. " Not to say Jimmie has it wrapped up, but sometimes championships are won that way. 222. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Any bets on a Bruton caution? 223. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Come on Bowyer! Win this one for us Kansans! 224. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, never would have picked Clint to win tonight. Great job!!! He might be right back in it now. 225. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, Clint! 226. New14 & 88Fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who would of thought Clint would have three wins at this point in the season, let alone be in the chase with a shot at the championship. 227. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, In all three of Clint's wins this year, they've had to push his car to victory lane. 228. Neal posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) How exciting, another race won in the engine shop and not on the track. Congrats to Clint but fuel mileage races effing suck. 229. David posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski seemed extremely satisfied in his PRN interview. 230. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did they mention how Stenhouse fell out of the race? I wasn't really paying attention the last 50 laps. 231. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Live by the sword, die by the sword. Or in this case, fuel mileage. Still having the best car in a historically bad race for Brad and still having the points lead says a lot. Looking forward to these last five, going through the ebbs and flows. 232. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why shouldn't Brad be satisfied? That 2 team flat has their program together. Yeah, what has aided them so much in the past bit them tonight, but as long as they keep bringing cars like that to the track, everything will work out. 233. murb posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was wondering about Stenhouse too, Paul. I don't know what happened either. Must have missed it if they did mention it. 234. Baker posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman bites the big one this week. Looks like his boss is in huge danger going into next week at Kansas. The top 3 are safe this week again everyone else can mathmatically get bounced out. 1. Brad Keselowski 2221 2. Jimmie Johnson 2205 3. Denny Hamlin 2182 4. Clint Bowyer 2157 5. Kyle Busch 2139 6. Kasey Kahne 2132 7. Tony Stewart 2100 I don't care if you like my points system or not, but come on would it not be awesome if every week was an elimination week just like a real playoff? The teams around the bubble would be pulling all the shots for wins. Teams would be taking a swing for the fence knowing a win could pretty much give them a safe card for 2 weeks regadless of finish. 235. Eric posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was an unlikely win by Clint Bowyer. He did win by fuel mileage, but winning a mile and half track was the last thing I expect out of Clint. Clint isn't at his best at mile and a half tracks. He is at his best at driver tracks and plate tracks. This is still a 3 car race for the championship. Clint is weaker than Brad, Denny, and Jimmie at the mile and a half tracks. Asking Clint to get a 5 at the next 3 mile and a half tracks is very tough for Clint to do. Brad had a bad break, but I think he'll bounce back at Kansas. 236. Eric posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I called Brad having bad break is the fact he finished 11th due to running out of fuel. 11th is respectable, but he can't afford to anymore things like running out of fuel. 237. Paul posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A wise man once said "don't beat yourself." If Brad and the #2 team want to win this championship, they can't allow a top 3 finish slips away like this. With the next three races at the reconfigured Kansas, Martinsville (where's he's historically wrecked out of good finishes late in the race), and Texas (where he's never run well), it's likely he could lose the points lead if Jimmie and/or Denny don't have a bad race in that span. A.J. was running top 25 all race long and finished 24th in his first race in three months. Aric Almirola finishes 12th in just his second Cup race at Charlotte. As for Carl and Joey, you know you're invisible when you run in the top 10 the whole race and nobody seems to notice. What a disappointing race for Gordon. I know he was speeding on pit road, but he was running outside the top 10 for the last 300 laps and this may be the final nail in the coffin for his Chase hopes. I gave Clint Bowyer no hope going forward and proved me DEAD WRONG. I thought for sure that his team wasn't good enough to win on a downforce track, and I know fuel mileage contributed to his win, but he flirted with the top five all race and took advantage of his fuel strategy by winning the race. I can't bring myself to root for a guy who's whored himself out to his sponsors, but watch out for that #15 team from here on out. 238. 18fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Impressed by Kyle and the 18 team's runs throughout the Chase. I know they haven't won yet, but they have had a top 5 car in all four non-plate races and have been competitive on both 1.5 milers, so I think Kyle can win before the season's over, especially if there is no fuel mileage finish, which is highly unlikely. And Kyle has been fast in Martinsville the last couple years, so he could have a shot there as well. 239. Jarrett88fan posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was a milestone race for Mark Martin. With his 6th place finish, Mark officially passed Bobby Allison for the second most top-10s in Nascar History. Congrats to all his fans. 240. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am so tired of these fuel mileage races they should have run this race under mario kart rules and armed these cars with thunder bolts, banana peels, koopa shells and rocket boosters it would have made this race a hell of a lot more interesting that's for sure. 241. Anthony posted: 10.13.2012 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so many empty seats! 242. Cornys posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought tonight's race was really good myself :). Fuel mileage is just another part of the sport that all of the teams and drivers need ot know how to deal with. It adds a level of excitement to racing that otherwise wouldn't be there. 243. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I loved this race at the beginning when Mark Martin and Greg Biffle were side-by-side for the lead for 4 straight laps, but then my attention slowly but surely started to drift away. By the end of the race, I didn't care who won or where the points stood (though Brad did lose 7 points to Jimmie and 9 to Denny). It's just a shame. I used to look forward to these Charlotte races, but now they're just a date on the schedule I can't wait to check off. Hell, I'm looking more forward to Kansas next week than I was to Charlotte tonight, and that's saying something because Kansas historically has had as bad, if not worse, racing than Charlotte since the '05 repave. I am however curious to see which drivers adapt to the reconfiguration quickest. Something tells me the top 3 in the points will do just that. 244. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think somebody already mentioned this, but this was the first NASCAR race without a North Carolina-born driver in the field since May 27, 1961 at Ascot Stadium in Los Angeles, California. With Dale Jr. sitting out, Scott Riggs was the only NC driver on the entry list and he failed to qualify. Plus, this was the first Cup race without an Earnhardt since Labor Day weekend in 1979 at Darlington, when David Pearson filled in for an injured Dale Earnhardt and won his 3rd career Southern 500 (in a 4-year span), his 10th Darlington race, and his 104th career Cup victory. It was also Pearson's only win in '79 and he won just once more after that. Technically, there was an Earnhardt racing at Charlotte as Jeffrey Earnhardt, Kerry's son and Dale's grandson, was in the Nationwide race yesterday, finishing in 27th place. 245. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There was a funny error on Jayski's that listed "Kurt Smith" as finishing in 21st place tonight. Boy wouldn't that be the biggest way Kurt Busch could totally change his image, if he could somehow drop that "Busch" name that's given him such a bad rep and change it to something a little more generic. 246. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, the 1979 Southern 500 was Pearson's ninth Darlington victory. He got his 10th and final Darlington victory, as well as the final victory of his career, the following spring at Drlington. And as I predicted, it would not be a three-way battle for the title after Charlotte, as Clint Bowyer, who I said was the only driver out of the top thre that could contend for the title, has gotten back into contention, at 28 points back. Now it's a four-way battle, but I think one of them drops out after Kansas, though which one it will be, I don't know. And Stenhouse dropped out with engine trouble. You could see just before he dropped out that his car could keep up in the corners, but not in the straightaways, a sure sign of engine trouble. In fact, he almost caused Tony Stewart a problem just before dropping out because as Stewart was trying to make a pass, he ran across Stenhouse's car. A few laps later, Stenhouse dropped out. And here's a stat. After 14 of the race's first 41 laps were run under caution, only nine of the race's final 293 laps were run under caution, which has been par for the course this year. 247. ch posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Changes... 10 - Tommy Baldwin Racing / TMone.com 15 - Pink Lemonade 5-Hour Energy 31 - Caterpillar / All Mini Machine Services / Phillip & Jordan, Inc. 93 - Dr. Pepper 99 - Kellogg's / Cheese It 248. 10andJoe posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #93 sponsor: Dr. Pepper (only DP labeling) #98 sponsor: K-LOVE (no significant Curb labeling) 249. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, you're correct. I looked at his win total and saw that he had 10 career Darlington wins, but mistakenly put down that the '79 race was his 10th win when it was only his 9th. And I saw Stenhouse when he was slow on the backstretch and Tony just about wrecked trying to avoid him and pass Truex who was in the high lane. The booth mentioned that he had just come from pit road, so I was confused why he was so slow if he had just pitted, but engine troubles explains why. As for your theory that one of the top four will drop out after Kansas, I have a sneaking suspicion that none of them will. Bowyer is the furthest back and thus is the likeliest to drop out next week, but I know that he would love nothing more than to win at his home track and with a win tonight (on another 1.5-mile track), he has great momentum heading into next week. Barring any bad luck, I think all four will be title contenders after next week, but Bowyer is the most likely to drop out even without a bad run simply because he's over a half race behind Keselowski. 250. D-Rock21 posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) After driving a Chevy in this race, AJ Allmendinger now has starts with all 4 manufacturers currently in the Cup series: Ford, Chevy, Dodge and Toyota. 10 other current ("current" meaning starting more than half the races this year) drivers have also done this: Kasey Kahne, Casey Mears, David Stremme, J.J. Yeley, Michael McDowell, Reed Sorenson, Mike Bliss, Joe Nemechek, Dave Blaney, and Bobby Labonte. Bliss, Nemechek, Blaney and Labonte have all driven Pontiacs, with Labonte also having driven an Oldsmobile early in his career. Mark Martin, like Labonte, has driven for 6 manufacturers in his career, but not all 4 current ones (he's never been in a Dodge). He has however driven a Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile. 251. D-Rock21 posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to my above post, as far as I can tell (after going through the top 100 or so in the most starts list) Buck Baker has the record for driving for the most different manufacturers at 13: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Firebird, Ford, Hudson, Kaiser, Lincoln, Oldsmobile, Plymouth and Pontiac. 252. 13 posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) there is a make called firebird? 253. 13 posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) i see now but i would include that with pontiac 254. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Using next year's provisional qualifying rules, here's how the field would have looked from 36th to 43rd: 36th fastest: David Gilliland 37th: Jeff Burton 38th: A.J. Allmendinger 39th: Travis Kvapil 40th: Landon Cassill 41st: Timmy Hill 42nd: Dave Blaney 43rd: Cole Whitt (missed the race in real life) Failed to Qualify: Josh Wise, Joe Nemechek, Scott Riggs, Reed Sorenson (made the race in real life) 255. Anonymous posted: 10.14.2012 - 3:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 252/253 - Firebirds were counted seperatly, as they were Grand American cars that ran in what were essentially combination races in the early '70s. Mustang, Firebird and Camaro are all counted by NASCAR as seperate makes. 256. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.14.2012 - 4:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big points haul for me... I picked Bowyer! 24 points *dances* 257. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.14.2012 - 7:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) IF I SEE ANOTHER ONE OF THESE DAMM FUEL MILEAGE RACES I AM GOING TO SNAP. 258. 10andJoe posted: 10.14.2012 - 8:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) All caps is not cruise control for cool. All caps is shouting. Please don't. 259. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.14.2012 - 8:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad for Regan... Best career finish for Timmy Hill. 260. Bronco posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't watch the race, but regardless it's awesome that Denny took a bite out Brad's point lead and is now well within striking distance. He has 9 wins at the next 5 tracks, he just need to reel off a win or two and beat the #2 and #48 into submission. Under the old points system, Dale Jr could still finish in the top 10 (assuming he return at Martinsville), instead ever everyone else in the chase gets a cushion of knowing they can't finish worse than 11th no matter what happens in he next 5 races. And what happened to Marcos Ambrose for him to finish 31 laps down? First race back for AJ since Kentucky, and he finished right around where Kurt Busch has been the whole season. 261. Matthew Tesfaye posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race was relatively boring in the last half of the race due to long green flag runs and fuel milegae 262. startandparkfan posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some Sponsor Corrections #31: CAT/ Phillips & Jordan/ All Mini Machine Services #83: Burger King/ Cricket SW3 #99: Kelloggs/ Cheez-It #39: Quicken Loans/ Ninja Turtles #24: Drive to End Hunger/ AARP/ Ninja Turtles 263. startandparkfan posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Loved the #51 with the Smiley Faces. 264. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, Marcos Ambrose hit the wall and did enough damage to the trunk lid of his car to put him in the garage area (it was moved over about a foot to the left). His crew repaired it and he returned nearly 30 laps behind. 265. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.14.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry for my little outburst there I guess I am just frustrated with the fact that most of these races this year have had little to no competition, been a complete blowout or has ended with a gas mileage finish. 266. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This win gave Bowyer his single season career highs in wins, top-5s, and top-10s all at once. 267. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Benjamin, blame it on the lack of competitve cars (there are only about 18-20 truly competitve cars today), the shorter fuel runs which reduce the effect of tire wear, the points system, which encourages conservative racing, and the start-and-parks, which reduces on-track traffic by as much as, if not more than 20% of the field. And with the 6 and 21 cars not competing at Kansas, that means there may be as many as nine start-and-parks at Kansas, including all eight non-exempt cars. For instance, by the first pit stops in next week's race at Kansas, there may as few as 35 cars on the track. Fewer cars means that there's less traffic, which in turns means more room for the drivers to operate, which in turn means there's less chance of cars getting together, which reduces the chances of crashes, which means longer green flag runs. As I mentioned, only nine of the last 293 laps were run under caution, with both cautions coming for debris, the first of which was a legitimate debris caution, though I don't know about the second one. As a result, only six cars finished on the lead lap in a Chase race for the second time in three races. and it's been many years since there have been this few cars on the lead lap in a speedway race. That last time I can remember this few cars on the lead lap in a race on a track longer than a mile in length was the 1999 spring race at Michigan, which went green all the way, and only five cars were on the lead lap when that race finished, with only four others one lap behind. 268. Bronco posted: 10.14.2012 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That last time I can remember this few cars on the lead lap in a race on a track longer than a mile in length was the 1999 spring race at Michigan, which went green all the way, and only five cars were on the lead lap when that race finished, with only four others one lap behind." The 2009 fall Texas race also had only 6 cars finishing on the lead lap, with Kyle Busch leading over 230 laps in his first race with David Rogers but Kurt Busch winning the race by a record 25+ seconds over Denny Hamlin. This race also marks 2 and 4 years since Jamie McMurray and Jeff Burton's last wins. Unlike Truex Jr who is riding an even bigger winless streak, McMurray and Burton's only chance to win again seems to be Talladega. 269. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 10.14.2012 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So I see NASCAR's statistics department has just given up on race attendance figures and not bothered... 270. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Bronco, that race in 2009 at Texas was also a fuel mileage race. Most races today with not very many cars on the lead lap at the end are fuel mileage races, with the recent race at Dover being an exception. another reason for the last two open races having so few cars on the lead lap is, because of the low number of cautions, or the timing of the cautions, there have not been many opportunites to use the wave-around to get half the field a lap back. That's another reason there have been so few cars on the lead lap the last two open-motor races. At Dover, the last 80% of the race was run with less than ten cars on the lead lap (as few as six at times), but because of the timing of the cautions that did fall, there was no use staying put and using the wave-around, because it was too risky. Last night, there were only two cautions after the lap 42 restart, with one coming just after pit stops. That might have been one reason that Keselowski stayed out on the last caution, to keep others from using the wave-around to get laps back. And because the last two open-motor races have been fuel mileage races, only six cars finished on the lead lap in each, and at Dover, 12th place was three laps behind, and there were 11 cars one laps behind at the end of the race last night. And although a lot of people decry fuel mileage races (even Rusty Wallace says they're getting out of hand), whether or not a race comes down to fuel mileage depends on one thing, and only one thing, and that is the particular timing of the cautions during a race. There may be 15 caution periods in a race, but if the last one comes at a certain point, it can become a fuel mileage race. Timing of cautions, rather than the sheer number of them, is what makes a race a fuel mileage race or not. 271. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.14.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well CJS Tell the drivers that they are draining the life out of each and every one of us with these fuel mileage races tell them that we want thrilling side by side battles for the lead not for races to be decided by fuel or for one driver to run off with a 5-10 second lead. Tell them that races should be fun and exciting like in the past not dull and boring like we see today. 272. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, had NASCAR not thrown that mystery debris caution on lap 224 and allowed guys like Denny, Jimmie, and Clint come in and top off with fuel, there wouldn't have been any fuel mileage strategy. Of course, Brad, Kasey, and Kyle had the same opportunity to top off under that caution, but opted not too. That said, NASCAR itself played a hand in the fuel mileage with a phantom debris caution, and that to me is unacceptable for the sanctioning body to play a hand in the outcome of the race. 273. murb posted: 10.14.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What Paul said. I know that it sounds like we're rehashing things that have already been said, but these debris cautions are really messing up the flow of the race. I think that it is ridiculous that douchebags like Bruton Smith actually endorse Nascar having a "halftime break". 274. Jarrett88fan posted: 10.14.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ding, ding, ding CJS... no truer statement about the 2012 Cup Season. "There may be 15 caution periods in a race, but if the last one comes at a certain point, it can become a fuel mileage race. Timing of cautions, rather than the sheer number of them, is what makes a race a fuel mileage race or not." 275. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to the loop data, Kevin Harvick's lowest position was 25th, while his his teammate Jeff Burton's highest position was 26th. I know he got damage to his left front early in the race, but his damage wasn't as bad as teammate Paul Menard's and Menard beat him by one lap. Burton's was outrun by both BK Racing cars, a Front Row car, and a Phoenix Racing car driven by a driver who hadn't raced in three months. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Burton as a driver and a leader, but this has gotten ridiculous. 276. murb posted: 10.14.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Loved the #51 with the Smiley Faces." I thought that was a good touch as well. Apparently, they did that as a tribute/mockery to their former driver Kurt Busch. You know, because he's usually the opposite of a smiley face. Kind of like how Harvick got the "Happy" moniker. 277. 10andJoe posted: 10.14.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >tell them that we want thrilling side by side battles for the lead not for races to be decided by fuel or for one driver to run off with a 5-10 second lead No. What we want is /natural competition/. This will involve huge leads, lapped fields, fuel mileage races, AND side by side battles. Demanding "thrilling side by side battles for the lead" is the "entertain me NOW" think that led to the demands to bring back pack racing at Daytona and Talladega (after, oh, only 20 YEARS of demanding it be done away with). I'm sure Eric McClure and Dale Earnhardt Jr. are grateful for the fans having been listened to. 278. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, had NASCAR not thrown that caution on lap 224, there might still have been some fuel mileage related drama, because there were drivers trying to see whether or not they could make it on one less stop. What that caution did was to change the players, but it was obvious that there were those that were trying to play the fuel game, even then. And Jarrett88Fan, a classic point about timing of cautions and not the number of them determining whether a race is a fuel mileage race would be the Daytona 500s of 1986 and 1989. The '86 Daytona 500 had eight cautions and the '89 Daytona 500 had seven, as both were crash-marred affairs. Yet because the final caution flag flew when it did, both of those races became fuel mileage affairs where the winner was determined by who got the best mileage (Geoff Bodine in 1986 and Darrell Waltrip in 1989) And I can remember races at Dover (not including the most recent one) and even Martinsville that have been decided by fuel mileage. And as for the lack of side-by-side racing in today's NASCAR. That comes down to two things, and those would be horsepower and aerodynamics. Remember that when racing was at it's best at the mid-sized tracks, the cars were lapping at 160 MPH, and top speed was 180-185. Now that's the lap speed with top speeds being over 200. As a result, the racing groove at many tracks is narrower because of the speed, and the cars just can not race close together because of the aerodynamics. For instance, we saw Brad Keselowski almost wreck Greg Biffle in last night's race without coming within five fet of him, but rather because of the air from Brad's car. Remember that when Buddy Baker set the existing record for the Daytona 500 in 1980, his engine produced about 620-640 horsepower. Now a Nationwide car produces more horsepower on certain tracks. But the problem with reducing horsepower is that if you do that, they'll be able to run wide open all the way around most of the mid-sized tracks, which would take the driver out of the equation, and one of NASCAR's major goals has always been to make the driver a major part of the equation. In other words, if you reduce horsepower, you risk all races becoming somewhat like a restrictor plate race, because everyone' going to be on top of each other. A few years ago, Humpy Wheeler had an idea to make the tires wider to increase competition. But that would also be a terrible idea because the only thing that would do is increase cornering speeds, thus increasing overall lap speeds. Just look at what happened at Indy from 1963-'67. The cars did not make much more horsepower, yet lap speeds went up nearly 20 MPH. The biggest thing that changed was the size of the tires. In 1963, the pole speed was 152 MPH. By 1966, it was over 166, and was nearly 170 the following year, and the only thing that marketly changed during that period was the tires. Everything else from 1964-'67 was the same. 279. Sean posted: 10.14.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How was the recent Dover race not a fuel mileage race? You've now said that twice. The #18 and #11 had the dominant cars but needed to pit at the end, while the #2 and #48 managed to stretch their fuel mileage (with the #48 slowing down considerably in the closing laps). 280. cjs3872 posted: 10.14.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, you're right, it was a fuel mileage race. What I was referring to in the last post was that there have been other fuel mileage races at Dover prior to the one two weekends before the Charlotte race. Harry Gant, Dale Jarrett, and Bobby Labonte all won fuel mileage races there in the 90s. And the reason I said that the recent race at Dover was an exception to the fact that most races that have very few cars on the lead lap were because they were fuel mileage races was not because that wasn't a fuel mileage race, because it was. The reason I said that had nothing to do with it was because 80% of that race was run with the number of cars on the lead lap in single digits due to the timing of an early caution. But fuel mileage was the reason there were so few cars one and even two laps behind at the finish, and fuel mileage was the reason why even the 12th place finisher was three laps behind the winner. 281. murb posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What I was referring to in the last post was that there have been other fuel mileage races at Dover prior to the one two weekends before the Charlotte race. Harry Gant, Dale Jarrett, and Bobby Labonte all won fuel mileage races there in the 90s." Just to add to this, I can remember a couple other somewhat recent Dover fuel mileage races. Fall 2003 - Ryan Newman pulls off yet another fuel derby win in 2003 over Jeremy Mayfield, who then drops an s-bomb in his post race interview. ("I would have felt like shit to win it on fuel mileage!!!") Fall 2006 - Not exactly a typical fuel mileage race, as it saw a great 20 lap battle between Jeff Burton and Matt Kenseth. But it did come down to fuel as Kenseth ran out right after Burton got by him, dashing any hopes of a comeback for the 17. Normally, you wouldn't really think of Dover as a track that would lend itself to fuel mileage finishes, but it has had quite a few of them. Also, on a bit of a different note, I read on Jayski earlier today that there is a rumor going around that Nascar might drop the Daytona Duel races in February, apparently due to lack of sponsorship. I would really hate to see this happen. A huge part of my childhood would be to come home from school on Thursday afternoon and watch the taped version of the race my parents would tape for me. However, later on in the article, it says that Budweiser signed a deal to be the sponsor of the duel races starting next year. And also, this rumor was originally started by Mike Mulhern who is a total dimwit, so I don't know if it should be taken seriously at all. I just thought I would post it on here because I hadn't seen anyone talking about it. 282. Dale Earnhardt Jr. posted: 10.14.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hello guys i am feeling better i think I am ready for next week. 283. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.14.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Demanding "thrilling side by side battles for the lead" is the "entertain me NOW" think that led to the demands to bring back pack racing at Daytona and Talladega (after, oh, only 20 YEARS of demanding it be done away with). I'm sure Eric McClure and Dale Earnhardt Jr. are grateful for the fans having been listened to." Thank you, thank you, thank you. NASCAR fans expect NASCAR to bend over backwards for them (and 100% of the time they do, cuz no one wants to piss off the peanut gallery). BTW, a driver got hurt (in Jr.s case re-hurt) because of what the fans wanted. So for those of you who got "manufactered pack racing" are you happy with what you have? Are you happy that a driver got hurt for what YOU wanted them to do? In terms of the race, better then i thought it would be. 284. ch posted: 10.14.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @276, If it's true then that is hilarious! I had thought it was AJ's idea since he was so happy to be back in a race car. 285. Paul posted: 10.14.2012 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BTW, a driver got hurt (in Jr.s case re-hurt) because of what the fans wanted" Junior didn't get hurt because of the pack racing at Talladega. In fact, his crash at Kansas seven weeks ago was over twice as hard (45 Gs, or 45 times the force of gravity) as his hardest impact at Talladega (20 Gs). He got hurt again because he had a pre-existing injury and didn't take the necessary time off to let that injury heal when he should have, and his physical condition only got worse at Talladega. He could have blown a tire at Dover a week earlier and hit wall at a force higher than 20 Gs and be in even worse condition now, and nobody would have blamed the racing at Dover for his crash. This wreck happened because one driver (Tony Stewart) made an ill-advised attempt to block another (Michael Waltrip), and it just so happened to take place in a pack with about 30 cars, with one of those 30 cars being driven by an already injured driver who shouldn't have been in the race in the first place. Furthermore, as unique as the tandem drafting was at the plate races last year, I'd rather have pack racing because it's a lot safer. Because the cars are so close together, nobody can get a run at a wrecked car, nor are they likely to hit the wall without another car in the way to "cushion" their crash. Last fall at Talladega, Mark Martin moved down into another car, turning him into Regan Smith, who was at the bottom of the race track, and shot Regan all the way up into the wall in a crash that looked eerily like Dale Earnhardt's crash at Daytona because he went from the bottom all the way into the wall and his car pretty much came to a stop once it got there. In the Daytona 500 last year, both Brad Keselowski and Matt Kenseth were turned by their drafting partners and could have easily been t-boned because they were perpendicular to the track. And in that same race Michael Waltrip turned David Reutimann, and even though it wasn't pack racing, it still was a big wreck that took out over a dozen cars. These wrecks happen because at these speeds, the drivers have to be perfect and sometimes they make mistakes, it just so happens that their mistakes at plate tracks are more costly than other tracks. So because these wrecks are going to happen regardless of whether it's pack racing or tandem racing, I'll take my chances with pack racing because there's a lesser chance of someone getting seriously injured. In Junior's case, he was already injured and that last lap wreck only made it worse. "Are you happy that a driver got hurt for what YOU wanted them to do?" The fans may have wanted pack racing, but ultimately it's NASCAR's responsibility to make the judgement call as to whether they should listen to the fans or not. WWE chairman Vince McMahon once stated "I know what the fans want more than they do." Since NASCAR is desperate for fans to come to the track, watch the races on TV, and buy merchandise, they've chosen to listen to the fans more times than they should, and I think that's hurt them in the long run. Once you let your audience dictate how the races are run, you become dependent on them in order to keep them around, and I think that's contributed to the downfall of the sport. Don't blame the people going to the show, blame the people running the show. 286. cjs3872 posted: 10.15.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And add that to the fact that the huge crash happened during a GWC finish, and you were going to get most of the field involved. But you don't have to have a mistake by a drive for a huge crash to happen at Talladega. Some of the worst crashes there were the result of tire problems and blown engines, including three huge crashes in the spring race. The crash in the 1973 Winston 500 was the result of a blown engine, and the crashes in the spring races in 1979 and 2003 we the reult of tire failures. Huge crashes are most often caused by driver error, but other things could cause them, as well. The thing I liked about the 2x2 racing at the plate tracks last year was that the field did get spread out, meaning that the chances of a huge wreck were diminished, but not eliminated, as last year's Daytona 500 proved. Another tihng I liked about it was that blocking was virtually eliminated, and most of the big wrecks on the plate tracks are caused by blocking, which NASCAR has to find a way to contrl, if not eliminate. The downside to the 2x2 racing, Paul, other than the pre-determined drafting partners and the politics involved would have to do with the possibility that you mentioned about a car geting arun on a disabled car, which you don't have in the huge wreck normally when they're in a pack, something Joe Ruttman first brought up about 12-14 years ago. That's why you rarely ever see any serious injuries from one of these huge multi-car crashes, bcause they're all crashing at the same speed. But in a huge crash like that, a car is more likely to get airborne, and at the wrong place, that could have catastrophic results, although NASCAR has done a very oggd job the last couple of years of keeping the cars on the ground. Fortunately, Tony Stewart's car getting airborne at thend of the most recent Talladega race has been an exception in the last two or three years, not the rule, and let's hope that continues with the 2013 car. But NASCAR has to find a way to separate the field at the plate tracks so if something happens, like at the end of the most recent race at Talladega, the whole field doesn't get involved. If that had happened early in the race, instead of at the finish, there might only have been about five to eight competitve cars left in the race, and nobody wants to see that for 300 miles or so. 287. Paul posted: 10.15.2012 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) cjs, Joe Ruttman said that during the 2002 Aaron's 312 Busch Series race at Talladega, which I believe had the biggest crash in the modern era with 27 cars crashing coming off turn 2. He said during the red flag after he got taken out that it's probably better that the cars are so close together because nobody can get a run on a disabled car and t-bone them. Jeff Fuller, who was also in the wreck, said that all the cars looked pretty stable from his view, which seems like an odd thing to say considering there were about 35-40 cars running about 190 MPH in a pack and started wrecking. And just for the record, that crash was a driver error as Kenny Wallace moved up the track exiting turn 2 (I'm not sure whether he was blocking or if he just didn't know Scott Riggs was there), causing Riggs to back out of the throttle and Shane Hmiel got into the back of him. I do agree with you about the G-W-C restarts, as they're a recipe for disaster at these plate tracks as seen from the Talladega races this year (the spring race's big wreck wasn't a G-W-C, but it happened on a restart with four scheduled laps to go). But I think the double-file restarts are the biggest reason for why the G-W-C finishes are so chaotic at the plate tracks (and non-plate tracks as seen from Martinsville this year). With both of these together, you're just asking drivers to attempt a 3-wide pass by threading the needle, which is what Denny Hamlin attempted on A.J. Allmendinger in the spring and what Michael Waltrip attempted on Tony Stewart last week. Unfortunately, neither worked and they resulted in 34 total cars getting involved in those two wrecks. Here's a statistic: In the last 19 Talladega races (since the fall 2003 race; before G-W-C finishes), the longest final green flag run was 11 laps, and that was the 2011 spring race when the cars were tandem drafting. In fact in those 19 races, the last green flag run has only lasted more than 4 laps only five times. So there's almost a 75% chance that there will be a 4-lap shootout to decide the winner. That to me is a red flag that maybe we shouldn't have G-W-C finishes at plate tracks anymore. True, the races that have more than two green flag laps to end the race aren't G-W-C finishes, but eliminating the G-W-C at plate tracks would help decrease the problem. 288. Paul posted: 10.15.2012 - 2:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) James Finch has confirmed that A.J. Allmendinger will be back in the #51 next week at Kansas, even noting that A.J. outran Kurt Busch at one point during the race. 289. Bronco posted: 10.15.2012 - 3:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith's DNF in the 88 car was the first engine related DNF since Kansas in fall 2009. The last DNF of any kind for the 88 was the 2011 Sonoma race (overheating). Clint Bowyer has now won on all four kinds of track - Short tracks, Superspeedways, Road courses and Intermediates. The only other full time drivers to have done this are Harvick, Gordon, Johnson, Stewart, Kyle Busch. Third straight year when Clint Bowyer wins a chase race. 290. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.15.2012 - 7:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On this day 23 years ago Dale Sr would have his greatest Disappointment ever at North Wilksboro. Also on this Day 12 Years Ago Dale Sr would get the last of his 76 career Victories In Dramatic Fashion at Talladega. 291. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.15.2012 - 8:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fuel mileage races have always been a part of NASCAR. That's just how it goes. Sometimes you are on the good end, sometimes the bad. It happens. Sure, in a perfect world Brad would have won this race and Dover would have been won by Jimmie (NOT Kyle, remember JJ passed him and was drivingg off into the sunset when he had to back way off to stretch his fuel and finish 4th instead of 7th, btw remember those 3 points come Homestead) but that is why they run the entire race (except when it rains lol). Think of races like this like last year's football game between Denver and Miami. The Fish thouroughly outplayed and dominated Denver for 58 minutes. But what happened? TEEEEEEEEEEEEE - BOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! 292. Scott B posted: 10.15.2012 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmm, a fuel mileage race where 6 of the top 10 finishers are Toyotas? Maybe someone's been doing some R&D. 293. David posted: 10.15.2012 - 11:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR has signed Fox to a new, $2.4 billion contract that begins in 2015 and runs through 2022. Fox will broadcast the first 13 Sprint Cup races and the entire Camping World Truck Series. 294. cjs3872 posted: 10.15.2012 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Exactly DSFF. Go back to the race that put the Wood Brothers on the map nationally, the 1963 Daytona 500. How did they win that race with Tiny Lund? Quick pit stops, sure, but they would not have won that race without superior fuel mileage and fuel strategy, with a little help from the weather, which caused the first 10 laps to be run under caution. And the greatest fuel economy run in auto racing history in this country came in the 1936 Indianapolis 500, when Louis Meyer became the first three-time Indianapolis 500 winner by conserving fuel, drafting off every car that passed him, as well as every one he passed, and stretched his fuel supply, which was 37.5 gallons of gas for the race, the full 500 miles and became the first three-time Indianapolis 500 winner. To do that, he had to average 13 and one-third miles per gallon for the distance. The AAA, which sanctioned the Indy race back then, had cut the fuel allotment for the disatance from 45 gallons in the 1934, to 42.5 in 1935, to 37.5 in 1936, and everyone said there was no way they could run 500 miles, but Meyer, Ted Horn, Mauri Rose, and a few others were able to do it. Of course, Rose was an engineer who won the Indianapolis 500 three times in the 40s, and became a major part of Chrysler's early NASCAR success. 295. P-Diddy posted: 10.15.2012 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey i am back and blah 296. Daniel posted: 10.15.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kansas Entry list: -Danica Patrick in the #10 -T.J. Bell in the #32 -Kelly Bires in the #79 297. Paul posted: 10.15.2012 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are 47 cars on the Sprint Cup Kansas entry list: - Danica Patrick in the #10 - Mike Bliss in the #19 - Trevor Bayne in the #21 - Scott Riggs in the #23 - Josh Wise in the #26 - David Stremme in the #30 - T.J. Bell in the #32 - Cole Whitt in the #33 - J.J. Yeley in the #37 - A.J. Allmendinger in the #51 - Mark Martin in the #55 - Kelly Bires in the #79 - Joe Nemechek in the #87 - Regan Smith in the #88 - Reed Sorenson in the #91 - Scott Speed in the #95 - Michael McDowell in the #98 Provided that Trevor Bayne makes the race, there could be as many as nine cars that start-and-park at Kansas, eight if Casey Mears runs the full race and seven if Dave Blaney does as well. 298. cjs3872 posted: 10.15.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you beat me to it. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the Wood Brothers plan to run ths weekend's race at Kansas as I don't think it was originally on their schedule. Could it be that they think they can get high enough in owner's points to get into next year's Daytona 500, even if the top 35 exemption rule is no longer in effect? At least with them running this weekend's race, that means ther will be one more car planning to go the distance, meaning there figure to be eight start-and-parks, instead of nine (assuming that the #13 or #36 does a S&P). Like I said, the start-and-parks change the math of the points, in terms of those behind trying to catch up, because it means fewer cars on the track, resulting in potenially fewer lost positions if one of the contenders have trouble. 299. jabber1990 posted: 10.15.2012 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not a physist, I am also not very smart so this might just sound really really stupid pack-racing is actually safer than single-car runs or even 2-car tandems (and I LOVE 2 car tandems) the #1 car and the #4 car are racing, the #4 car rubs the #1 the right way and the #1 goes for a spin, the #1 will hit the wall head-on at 175-200MPH which will end the drivers day and will probably have a headache too, now, the #1 car got spun, and tagged the #7 car, the #7 broke the #1's momentum so it got to slow down slightly which makes a big I am not a physist, I am also not very smart so this might just sound really really stupid pack-racing is actually safer than single-car runs or even 2-car tandems (and I LOVE 2 car tandems) the #1 car and the #4 car are racing, the #4 car rubs the #1 the right way and the #1 goes for a spin, the #1 will hit the wall head-on at 175-200MPH which will end the drivers day and will probably have a headache too, now, the #1 car got spun, and tagged the #7 car, the #7 broke the #1's momentum so it got to slow down slightly which makes a big diffrence in this sport, and lets say the #7 spun and hit the #8 or was hit by the #8, the #7 slows down, at the end of the ordeal the #1 and the #7 aren't hitting the wall at 200, they are hitting the wall at well below 200, and as long as they dont hit the wall much harder than 100 they will get to patch up the car and go back out racing without losing too much time or aerodynamics my point is, pack-racing makes wrecks less hard-hitting, which if you look at it big-picture is for the best, less injuries, and then the fans dont get the 2-car racing which everyone hated, and you get pack-racing which is just amazing, its hard to find it boring, yes 20 car crashes suck, but its expected, and usually the wreck videos go viral, plus if cars dont crash at 200 you dont have red-flags to fix the wall and SAFER barriers, which just annoys everyone, in this sport, and lets say the #7 spun and hit the #8 or was hit by the #8, the #7 slows down, at the end of the ordeal the #1 and the #7 aren't hitting the wall at 200, they are hitting the wall at well below 200, and as long as they dont hit the wall much harder than 100 they will get to patch up the car and go back out racing without losing too much time or aerodynamics, we've seen bandaged cars finish in the top 5 or even win my point is, pack-racing makes wrecks less hard-hitting, which if you look at it big-picture is for the best, less injuries, and then the fans dont get the 2-car racing which everyone hated, and you get pack-racing which is just amazing, its hard to find it boring, yes 20 car crashes suck, but its expected, and usually the wreck videos go viral plus if cars dont crash at 200 you dont have red-flags to fix the wall and SAFER barriers, which just annoys everyone, 300. Talon64 posted: 10.15.2012 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fuel mileage races have always been a part of NASCAR. That's just how it goes. Sometimes you are on the good end, sometimes the bad. It happens. Sure, in a perfect world Brad would have won this race and Dover would have been won by Jimmie (NOT Kyle, remember JJ passed him and was drivingg off into the sunset when he had to back way off to stretch his fuel and finish 4th instead of 7th, btw remember those 3 points come Homestead) but that is why they run the entire race (except when it rains lol). Think of races like this like last year's football game between Denver and Miami. The Fish thouroughly outplayed and dominated Denver for 58 minutes. But what happened? TEEEEEEEEEEEEE - BOWWWWWWWWWWWWW!" I'm hoping the 2 team learned two things from this race. 1, that they can't get caught up in the hype of their own fuel mileage. If they had managed to pit without running out of fuel, they would've had a 4th place finish in the bag and nobody would've gained a thing on them. Oh and 1.5, make sure you get all the fuel in!!! If they'd managed that in the first place, then it would've been 3 wins in 5 Chase races. 2, that they've got the pace to contend for wins just about anywhere now. Kansas has new pavement, finishing's been tough at Martinsville and their history at Texas isn't great but they're having the kind of year where past history at tracks doesn't matter because they're running that good. Kind of like Hamlin in 2010, or Carl in 2008, or Jimmie always. 301. Talon64 posted: 10.15.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint Bowyer picks up his 8th career Sprint Cup Series win and career-high 3rd win of 2012. Clint had just 2 wins in his first 4 full seasons in Cup (144 starts, .0139 win %) but now has 6 in the last 3 (103, .058 win %). It's also his 5th career Chase win and 4th when he's been in the Chase. Clint also has new career high's in top 5's (8), top 10's (19) and his average finish (11.2) is currently 2.6 spots better than his previous best (13.8 in 2007). Bowyer's one of just 7 drivers to have a top 10 % of .500 or better in the Chase (all drivers, not just Chase participants). It's Bowyer's 1st win and just his 2nd top 5 in 14 career starts at Charlotte (4 top 10's, 16.4 avg fin). Michael Waltrip Racing had just 2 wins in their first 414 Cup starts, both by David Reutimann, but have 3 in 31 races this season (93 starts), all with Clint Bowyer. With their 3 top 10's in this race, MWR has now surpassed 100 top 10's for it's career (102). Denny Hamlin ties Jeff Gordon for 2nd in the series with his 4th runner-up finish of 2012. It's also the 15th runner-up finish of his career, tying him with Ryan Newman and Speedy Thompson for 50th all time. It's just his 2nd top 5 in the first 5 Chase races but they're both top 2 finishes. It's just Hamlin's 3rd top 5 in 15 career Charlotte starts (8 top 10's, 14.1 avg fin), but it's his 2nd straight runner-up finish there and 5th straight top 10 there. Jimmie Johnson picks up his 4th finish of 4th or better in the first 5 Chase races. Johnson continues to lead the series in top 5's (16, 3 more than 2nd), top 10's (21, 2 more than 2nd) and laps led (1,314). Jimmie Johnson gets just his 4th top 10 in the last 11 races at Charlotte (17.2 avg fin, versus 6.2 in his first 12 starts there), but 3 of them are top 3 finishes. Greg Biffle has his first top 5 since his Michigan win, a span of 9 races that also includes just 3 top 10's. Biffle has back-to-back top 10's for the first time since the Glen and Michigan. But despite that, Biffle leads the series not only in average finish (9.9) but is 2nd in average start (9.1, previous best was 13.2 in 2005). Greg Biffle finishes 4th in both Charlotte races this season, the first time he's been top 5 in both races in a season. It's his 3rd top 5 in the last 5 races there and 5th in 20 career Charlotte starts (16.4 avg fin). Kyle Busch now has 9+ top 5's in each of his 8 full seasons in the Sprint Cup Series (89 top 5's since 2005 ranks 5th). It's his 3rd top 5 in 5 Chase races, already the most top 5's he's had in a single Chase since 2007 (5 in 10 races). In Chases that Kyle's made (5 in 8 seasons), he's averaged 2.2 per Chase. Kyle's 8 top 5's and 11 top 10's at Charlotte are his 2nd most at any track, and all that has come within the last 13 races (8.2 avg fin, versus 33.6 in his first 5 starts), but he's still win-less there. Mark Martin moves past Bobby Allison into 2nd all time with his 447th career Cup start. Now Mark just needs 1 top 10 in his last 4 scheduled starts of 2012 to make it 25 consecutive seasons with 10+ top 10's; he has 4 top 10's in his last 5 starts, after having just 5 in his first 15 starts of 2012. It's Mark's first top 10 in his last 5 Charlotte starts, but his 24 top 10's in 56 career starts (16.6 avg fin) leads all active drivers and ranks 7th all time. Carl Edwards picks up just his 2nd top 10 in the last 8 races, but both have come within the last 3. Carl needs 1 more top 10 in the last 5 races to avoid setting a new career low in top 10's, but needs 4 top 5's to avoid a new career low there. Charlotte becomes the 6th different track that Carl has 10+ top 10's at, picking up his 3rd straight top 10 there and 10th in 16 starts (12.0 avg fin). Kasey Kahne's 16 top 10's this season are his most since he had 19 in 2006, his career-high to date. It's his 3rd top 10 and 5th top 15 finish in the 5 Chase races. Charlotte becomes the 1st track that Kasey Kahne's reached 10 top 10's at, and his 12.4 avg fin there (18 starts) is his best at any track, except for Rockingham (1 start) and Kentucky (2 starts). Joey Logano is one of just 5 drivers with 4 top 10's in the first 5 Chase races this season, and joins JGR teammate Kyle Busch as the only non-Chase drivers to do so. But the other 4 rank 1st (Brad Keselowski), 2nd (Jimmie Johnson), 4th (Clint Bowyer) and 6th (Kyle), while Logano is only 13th (best finish of 7th, 32nd at Talladega). Logano's 5 top 10's at Charlotte are his most at any track, and his 10.1 avg fin (8 starts) leads all active drivers. Martin Truex Jr. has alternated finishes inside and outside of the top 10 over the last 8 races (4 in, 4 out), but has 8 top 10's in the last 12 races. It's just his 3rd top 10 in 15 career Charlotte starts and first in 6 races (18.7 avg fin). Aric Almirola gets his first top 15 finish in 18 races, since his top 10 at Dover back in June. In fact, it's the first top 15 finish for Richard Petty Motorsports in 5 races. Sam Hornish Jr. finishes in the top 20 for the first time in 4 races. Kurt Busch finishes 2 laps down in his 1st start for Furniture Row Racing (FRR #78 had 10 lead lap finishes in 30 races with Regan Smith this season). 302. David posted: 10.15.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Musical instruments, anyone? I play the trumpet and the piano (not from sheets). 303. David posted: 10.15.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boom. Another troll bites the dust. 304. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.15.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "plus if cars dont crash at 200 you dont have red-flags to fix the wall and SAFER barriers, which just annoys everyone" If you've been around a while, Pocono USED to have steel walls (psudo SAFER barriers for the back in the day). Everytime someone hit that wall, they had to red flag the race to repair it (which was frquently if i remember). Eventually, Pocono, fans, NASCAR (pick one) got sick and tired it and replaced it with a concrete one. 305. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.16.2012 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF rant time: Watching Monday Night Football and an incredible Denver comeback with Peyton Manning. In typical ESPN fashion, when it comes to certain people, simply letting us watch a great performance isn't enough, they have to shove a bunch of meaningless garbage down our throats. It reached its crescendo when ESPN showed its "Mount Rushmore" of quarterbacks. Their 4? John Elway, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, and Peyton Manning. Um........ WHAT? Combined Super Bowl rings for those 4? Three. You might notice Joe Montana's name not on that list. His Super Bowl ring count alone? FOUR! How the HELL do you leave him off? Peyton has had many of these outstanding performances like he had tonight.... IN THE REGULAR SEASON. How many playoff heroic performances has he had? I count one, the AFC title game he won against the Pats. We cannot just ignore this. He has a LOSING playoff record. Brett Favre is the master of the back breaking post season interception throw ('09 vs the Saints, '07 vs the Giants, '03 vs the Eagles in perhaps the biggest "what the hell was that" pass ever done in the post season). Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl, only made it to one where was crushed by (wait for it, wait for it) Joe Cool and the Niners. And while Elway does get credit for carrying some truly underwhelming 80's Broncos teams to 3 Super Bowls before finally getting those 2 at the end of his career, he really no showed those 80's Super Bowls (including the biggest blowout ever against wait for it, wait for it, Joe Cool and the Niners). Makes you wonder how differently his career would be if the Cleveland Browns of the 80's weren't coached by Marty Schottenheimer, hands down the greatest playoff choker ever. In fact, in the pantheon of stunning playoff losses, each of the 4 ESPN picked are represented. Marino's getting beatdown by the Seahawks (who were favored, but not by 63 points), the Broncos losing at Mile High to the second year Jaguars, Favre losing the Super Bowl to Terrell Davis and the Broncos (Elway was along for the ride on that one), and the Colts losing to the Saints. These rank alongside Super Bowl III, the 1969 NBA Finals, the 1969 World Series, the 1990 World Series where the Reds SWEPT the A's, the Pats beating the Rams in '01, the Giants beating the undefeated Pats in '07; and WrestleMania VI as "I can't believe they lost" instances. The real Mount Rushmore of NFL quarterbacks: Joe Montana, Bart Starr, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas. 306. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, those four quarterbacks that ESPN listed have four combined Super Bowl rings, not three. Elway has two rings, while Favre and Manning each have one ring. But I do agree that I wouldn't put those four quarterbacks (Marino included) on the "Quarterback Mount Rushmore" like ESPN did. I consider myself an old school guy (even though I'm not quite 20 years old), and so I like your list of Montana, Bart, Graham, and Johnny U (who's consecutive games with a touchdown streak is far more impressive than Drew Brees' because he did that in an era where you don't throw the all 30-40 times a game). Joe Montana was "Brady before Brady" and has 4 Super Bowls to his credit. Bart Starr won 5 NFL Championships, including the first two Super Bowls (and was named MVP both times). Otto Graham (who I think is the greatest quarterback ever) won five straight NFL championships, led the Browns to a win over the defending NFL champions the Philadelphia Eagles in 1950 in the Browns' first NFL game (believe it or not, the Eagles at one point were capable of winning titles), was a 9-time All-Pro in a 10-year career, and (accidentally) invented the "draw" play. And Johnny Unitas played for 18 seasons (absolutely incredible considering the few rules and regulations in place in his era), was a 3-time NFL MVP, and most importantly was responsible for sparking the rise in popularity of professional football in the 1960s by winning the 1958 NFL Championship Game (the "Greatest Game Ever Played"; remember, for many years college football was far more popular than pro football). But if I could, I would add one more quarterback to that "Quarterback Mount Rushmore": Joe Namath. Now I know that putting five players on a Mount Rushmore would look odd as the monument itself only has four, but I would put him up there simply for his impact on the game. In 1965, the NFL, after several years of either beating or just plain ignoring the American Football League, finally felt threatened by the rival league when he signed with the New York Jets of the AFL after being drafted in both leagues (the St. Louis Cardinals drafted him in the NFL Draft). Having lost the rights to the hottest young player on the market, and fearing they would soon lose ratings and fans to the AFL, began to negotiate with the AFL about a partnership and (eventually) a merger. This is what created the first Super Bowl in January 1967 (the 1966 season). After the NFL soundly beat the AFL in the first two Super Bowls (which the aforementioned Bart Starr twice won the game's MVP), "Broadway" Joe made what sounded like a dubious statement of guaranteeing victory in Super Bowl III over the Baltimore Colts, a team whose quarterback was the reigning league MVP Earl Morrall (who filled in greatly for an injured Johnny U). They appeared to be outmatched going into the game with a roster full of unknowns and playing against a team that was favored by 18 points and had great players like Morrall, running back Tom Matte, tight end John Mackey, linebacker Mike Curtis, and defensive end Bubba Smith, not to mention head coach Don Shula. But even with less talent, and with their only other great player, wide receiver Don Maynard injured (he played, but was a non-factor due to his hamstring injury), Namath put his team on his back and helped open up running lanes for his little-known running back Matt Snell (who scored their only touchdown), and made even lesser-known wide receiver look like a star in place of the injured Maynard. Because of his play and leadership, along with the defense stepping up against the powerful Colts offense, the Jets were 3 minutes and 19 seconds shy of a shutout, and beat the Colts 16-7. Because of his impact on the game with such things as contributing to the AFL-NFL merger, adding legitimacy to the AFL by beating the powerhouse Colts in the Super Bowl, being one of the NFL's original gunslingers, and making football players marketable with his active social life, good looks, and tremendous charisma and personality, he certainly left his mark on the game that we still see today. And because of that, I would have to add him to the "Quarterback Mount Rushmore", along with Montana, Bart, Graham, and Johnny U. And hey, you know what those four have in common? All four of them are the best quarterbacks in their team's history (eat your heart out Favre and Peyton). 307. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.16.2012 - 7:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Joe Cool Montana How about Superbowl 23 when he drove a spike through the hearts of every Cincinnati Bengals fan in America by scoring the game winning touchdown late in the game. 308. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.16.2012 - 7:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF what if Superbowl 47 comes down to the Broncos and the Giants. Payton vs Eli. I bet you ESPN would totally lose their minds. 309. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.16.2012 - 12:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) nascar just announced that ""In an effort to strengthen the ownership base up and create a sense of urgency among teams to make races, the maximum starting field for the NASCAR Nationwide Series will be set at 40, as opposed to the 43-car field in previous years. A maximum NASCAR Sprint Cup Series starting field will remain at 43 cars while the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series will hold steady at 36." why didn't they just save time and just say "we want half of the teams to shut down or go out of business." so long morgan shepherd, curtis key, jay robinson, mike harmon, rick ware, jimmy means, macdonald motorsports, deware racing, go green racing, sr2 motorsports, and randy hill racing. 310. Eric posted: 10.16.2012 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I don't think Dan could really be blamed for going to one Super Bowl only. The 1984 Dolphin team had a slim chance to win against the 1984 49ers. I am saying that because the fact is it was easy for the 1984 49ers plan for the 1984 Dolphins for their offense. The 49ers in 1984 had the personnel to match the Dolphins Offense. Lott, Hicks, Wright, and Williamson were pro bowl players that year in the secondary and that means all their starters in the secondary were having great seasons. This is a key because the 1984 Dolphins were a bad running team and the 49ers were able to focus on pressuring Marino as a result. The 1984 Dolphins Killer bee Defense was on the decline. The AFC championship game with the Dolphins giving up 455 yards and 28 points on offense including 312 yards to Mark Malone and that means The Dolphins Defense would be carved up by the 49ers. Most of the Dolphins offenses Dan Marino played didn't even have an average running game. The Dolphins for most of Dan's Career was bad on Defense. When the Dolphins got a very good defense in the late 1990's, Dan was on his downside of career. That late 1990's defense had 2 players probably will be voted the hall of fame in Zach Tomas and John Taylor when they are eligible. I am not saying Dan belongs on the Mount "Mount Rushmore" of quarterbacks though. 311. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know how lowering the maximum cars in the Nationwide Series is supposed to help anyone. All it's going to do is lower the amount of cars that start-and-park and the cars that race will stay the same. It's also going to force some teams to shut down (best case scenario is that it takes away cars from Rick Ware and Curtis Key's teams) and worse yet it's going to take away jobs from several drivers and crews trying to make it in this sport. This year, the Nationwide Series has 43 cars in the field with about 10 cars that park. Next year, the Nationwide Series will have 40 cars in the field with about 7 cars that park. Either way, only about 33 cars plan on running the full race, and all this does is take money away from teams that truly need it. And as far as the reason being "to strengthen the ownership base up and create a sense of urgency among teams to make races", this wouldn't have happened if so many teams hadn't folded up shop. I think a lot of that has to do with the increased entry fees and the high cost of building a COT. In 2010, the last year with the old car, there were 60 cars attempting to qualify for Daytona at the beginning of the season and had only 43 cars on the entry list three times (both U.S. road courses and IRP). This year, 50 cars attempted to qualify for Daytona and had only 43 cars on the entry list FIFTEEN TIMES, and there's still four races to go. The only reason why that number isn't higher is because Curtis Key always enters four cars and Rick Ware started entering additional cars after Blake Koch lost his sponsor early in the season. In fact, the July Daytona race had just 43 cars on the entry list, which is seven less than the season opener. My guess is that NASCAR got tired of fans complaining about the high number of start-and-park cars in each race (even though shrinking the field doesn't endanger any of the funded teams) and so they did this hoping to keep the fans happy because they're so needy for ticket sales, tv ratings, and merchandise sales. All this is going to do is put more teams out of business, take away jobs from people that really need it, and make this series fall even deeper. Way to look out for your competitors NASCAR. I hope you enjoy the $2.4 billion you'll be making off this new tv deal with FOX. 312. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.16.2012 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey DSFF what if Superbowl 47 comes down to the Broncos and the Giants. Payton vs Eli. I bet you ESPN would totally lose their minds." Oh yeah, the entire Bristol, CN headquarters might explode. And don't rule out this as the Super Bowl matchup. Although the Broncos are a mediocre team (Peyton played great, but last night was more of a typical Norv/Rivers era collapse than a Denver comeback), the AFC is just bad. The one really good team they had, the Ravens, just had about 5 season crushing injuries last week. So they could definitely make the big game. But if they come across the G-Men, they will get crushed. First off, Eli is a much better post season performer. And seondly that defense will crush the Broncos, their (comparatively) weak armed QB and mediocre WR crew. Speaking of Eli, is he the bizarro Peyton or what? He looks like Peyton, talks like Peyton, and sulks after bad plays like Peyton. But while Peyton has made a career out of sparkling regular season performances, a slew of MVPs, and the inevitable "greatest QB ever?" debates only to usually lose his very first playoff game, often times at home. Meanwhile Eli pulls out some of the ugliest regular season performances to actually get a playoff berth, only to turn into Joe Freaking Montana once the playoffs start, incapable of losing on the road, and making more clutch, ballsy plays in his Super Bowls than Tom Brady (as has been mentioned, Joe Cool II). " consider myself an old school guy (even though I'm not quite 20 years old)" That is not a bad thing. The talking heads on TV will always try to convince you that the athletes nowadays would crush the greats back in the day if given a time machine. A great example: Bill Russell, former Celtics center who won 11 NBA championships in 13 seasons, crushed Wilt (LeBron before LeBron) in the win-loss column winning 7 of their 8 playoff matchups, and the greatest defender ever. Everybody talks about how he would get blown off the court by todays NBA players. What they fail to mention is that todays players are put in basketball camps by age 6, in AAU camps all throughout their adolescence, and coddled cause everyone knows if they make it to the NBA a big freaking contract is waiting on them whether they are any good or not. Conversely, Bill Russell didn't play basketball for the first time until he was 15, yet still within a few years he won back to back NCAA basketball tournament championships as the heart and soul of the unheralded University of San Francisco, got drafted by the Celtics, and the rest is history. I say give HIM a time machine to today, let him be taught all the fundamentals from childhood onwards and see what happens to todays players. Best example: today's whole "is LeBron better than Jordan?" debates. LeBron may be the greatest athletic specimen in all of sports. But Jordan would still crush him. Michael Jordan was a competitive killer, not satisfied with merely winning, he had to demoralize and crush everyone in his path. LeBron would be no different than everyone MJ came across in the 90s: a slightly washed up Magic, The Bad Boys, Clyde Drexler, Pat Riley's Bad Boys II Knicks, Patrick Ewing, John Starks, Patrick Ewing, Patrick Ewing again, Sir Charles, Zo, Mutombo, Karl Malone, and Reggie Miller. LeBron still doesn't toally have that understanding of what it takes to help his team win which is why he chickened out and joined Dwayne Wade. Anyways, stay old school. And don't let these idiot "analysts" sway you. Best NASCAR example? Anybody who peaked as a driver during the loaded 1985-1995 stretch. Even the "second tier" drivers of that day (like Geoff Bodine) would cruise to multiple championships in Brian France's NASCAR and have their win total at least tripled. As for the elite drivers of the day like Rusty, Bill, Davey, or Mark, they would be putting up JJ numbers. As for The Dominator of that era, Dale, forget about it. A 10 race dash for the title, equal cars, wave arounds, lucky dogs, double file restarts which favor those who are the most aggressive while being able to control it, and drivers who are EASILY psyched out like Kyle, Denny, and Carl.... holy shit there is no telling what he would do. The equal cars are the biggest thing. 313. David posted: 10.16.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but rest in peace, Dan Wheldon on the one-year anniversary of his tragic death. 314. Scott B posted: 10.16.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess NASCAR thought the NNW wasn't being dominated completely enough by Cup multicar teams like Gibbs, Childress, Roush and Penske crossing over to beat up the unpopular kids on the playground. Sarcasm off, good luck to any unaffiliated teams trying to survive... you'll need it. 315. murb posted: 10.16.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, I just read on ESPN that Eldora might get a Truck race next year. Holy rusted metal (under Matt Kenseth's car), Batman... 316. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Casey Mears, who was originally going to start-and-park at Kansas, is now fully sponsored for the remainder of the season by GEICO. After a few days of speculation, it is official that Regan Smith is in talks with JR Motorsports about competing full-time in the #7 car next season. Kelley Earnhardt says that car is fully sponsored for 2013, unlike Cole Whitt's #88, and right now they just have to work out a deal with Regan and the team's sponsors for next season. So basically, Regan will be at JRM next season and they're just writing out the contract at the moment. The plan is for Regan and Cole to drive the full-time cars, while a 3rd car (#5) will be run part-time by Dale Jr., Danica, and Ron Fellows. New Jersey Motorsports Park is interested in obtaining a Nationwide race next season. They'll be competing against Road Atlanta and Mid-Ohio (two NASCAR-affiliated tracks in Grand-Am and/or ALMS) to replace Montreal as the series' 3rd road course. Chrissy Wallace was originally going to drive the #4 JD Motorsports car this weekend at Kansas (making her teammates with her dad Mike), but after the team couldn't secure primary sponsorship, they decided to replace her with Danny Efland because they didn't want her to start-and-park. They secured associate sponsorship, but both parties agreed this would be in her best interest. Teams will be allowed to test at two tracks on the schedule in the Truck Series next season, with R.O.T.Y. contenders being allowed an additional test. NASCAR instituted a testing ban that prevented teams from testing on tracks that were on their series' schedule beginning in 2009, and now the Truck Series will be allowed to do so at two tracks (three if they have a rookie driver), with the Cup and Nationwide Series possibly gaining some additional tests in the near future. 317. Baker posted: 10.16.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #315 Trucks dirt racing in my home town? I'm so there. 318. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I have two great examples of NASCAR drivers being molded into race car drivers from a young age compared to NASCAR drivers who began "late". My first examples are Joey Logano and Derrike Cope. Joey, as what's well been documented, began racing at age six when his dad Tom Logano bought him a quarter-midget. He soon moved up and started driving junior stock cars, late models, and street stock cars. At age 10 he started racing Legends cars where he set a record by winning 14 consecutive races at Atlanta Motor Speedway. Then he spent a couple years driving late model asphalt cars before catching Mark Martin's eye (where he proclaimed Joey would be one of the greatest drivers of all-time. Yikes!) and landed a ride with Joe Gibbs Racing in the now-K&N Pro Series East, becoming the first driver in series history to win both the championship and Rookie of the Year in the same season in 2007. From there, he ran a partial Nationwide schedule the next season and became the youngest winner in series history 21 days past his 18th birthday, and replaced then-2-time Cup champion Tony Stewart in the #20 Cup car in 2009, where's remained until the conclusion of this season when he moves over to Penske Racing at the request of the current points leader, Brad Keselowski. At age 22, Joey has been racing for 16 years and has won 9 championships. Rewind the clock 30 years and you get almost the exact opposite story from Derrike Cope. Cope was a fan of NASCAR back in high school, but had never raced as his focus at that age was baseball. He graduated from Bethel High School (the same high school as Mike Blowers, who had an pretty good 11-year career with the Yankees and Mariners, among other teams), where he was a start catcher on the baseball team. He attended Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington (love that name), where he was scouted by a number of Major League Baseball teams, but had his career cut short from a knee injury. With his baseball career now over, he turned his attention over to auto racing, a sport that he was a big fan of, but because of his baseball commitments and devotion, had never attempted to be a race car driver until his knee injury. Basically, Cope's career as a race car driver came almost out of necessity, not because he had been groomed or sought out to be one. Cope fought his way up the racing ladder, having success in the now-K&N Pro Series West in the mid-'80s. He also earned some Cup rides for several small Cup teams, where he posted some good numbers at Riverside and finished 8th at Martinsville in 1986. In '87 he had a few good runs for Fred Stoke, finishing in the top 20 in all three races the car made it to finish at Martinsville, Bristol, and Riverside. This earned him a full-time ride for Jim Testa in '88 and the beginning of '89, and then moving over to Bob Whitcomb's team for the remainder of the year. After ending '89 with six top 14 finishes in the final seven races, Cope shocked the racing world (which as seen from this board, is still felt today) when he swapped the lead with Dale Earnhardt (who led 155 laps) three times over the final 20 laps, including benefiting from the ultimate "right place, right time" moment when Earnhardt cut his tire down in the final turn, handing Cope his first career win AND top five finish in Cup, and forever being known as a Daytona 500 champion. And just to prove his win at Daytona wasn't a total fluke, Cope won again in the 500-mile Dover race, leading 93 laps in the process. FUN FACT: Cope's total winnings in 1989 was $121,780. In the 1990 Daytona 500 alone, he won $188,150. Cope joined Cale Yarborough's team in '93 after Whitcomb's team shut down, before joining Bobby Allison's team for the second half of '94. He had a pretty good year in '95, having a top five run at Bristol and a runner-up finish at Phoenix and finishing 15th in the points. Since then, his career highlights have been few and far between, although he got the most out of that Arnold Motorsports #50 car in 2004, qualifying 5th at Darlington and having a top 10 run at Texas. And up until this season, he was a regular in the Nationwide Series for the past eight seasons. Despite their differences in how they became racing drivers, Cope and Logano have one thing in common: They each won two Sprint Cup races in their first four full-time seasons. While Cope may not have the natural driving talent that Joey has (partially due to the fact that Cope started racing at about the same age Joey is now), he always managed to overachieve in his equipment and was always pretty good on the "driver" tracks like Dover, Bristol, Darlington, Martinsville, and Riverside. And judging by the differences between Cope and Logano in terms of what age they started, equipment, money, and hype, I'd say overall Cope was the better driver as he accomplished as much in a more difficult era, with better competition, no teammates, no rich daddy, coming from the Pacific northwest, and didn't start racing until his early 20s as "Sliced Bread". As for my second example, it would have to be comparing Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt. I won't go into that like I did Cope/Logano because a.) It's been discussed so many times and b.) I don't think me going through it would do it justice. I'll just leave it like this: One guy started racing when he was four years old, was moved to Indiana by his step-father to strengthen his early racing career, and has been in competitive equipment his whole Cup career; while the other guy started racing on his own after his father refused to help at first because he dropped out of high school, fought and clawed his way up the ranks, got his first Cup start at age 24 (Jeff was a champion at that age), got a full-time ride four years later, won the title in his second year, lost his ride and had three years of turmoil, started winning championships left and right, and IS (not arguable) one of the top 3 stock car drivers of all-time. What they have in common: They both made the most out of their different career paths and together have 162 wins, 11 championships, and are both among the greatest drivers of all-time in any walk of motorsport. And just to end the discussion, this is how I see it: Earnhardt > Gordon >>>>>> Cope > Logano 319. David posted: 10.16.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, remember that the first guy was banned from every level of go-karts because he kicked everyone's tail as a NINE-YEAR OLD. Not that that makes a difference in the final comparison. I just wanted to throw that in there. 320. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The overall point of my previous post was to illustrate how much better Cope or Earnhardt could have been had they been raised to be a race car driver from childhood like Gordon and Logano, instead of becoming one during adulthood. Because of those factors, that is why I say Earnhardt was better than Gordon (and this coming from a Gordon fan) and Cope was better than Logano. And I agree about the sports analysts DSFF. Especially the NASCAR media. Good lord, those guys are awful. Say what you want about Kurt Busch, but I am so glad he said what he did to Bob Pockrass earlier this year because Bob is one of the many trained monkeys that works in the NASCAR media. Anybody who writes a weekly article documenting Danica's latest performance in Cup/Nationwide while ignoring lesser-known drivers who overachieve like [insert name of just about any driver in non-Cup affiliated equipment] deserves to be knocked down a peg. Hell, I wanted to "beat the shit out of" him after I saw him on this internet NASCAR video podcast where he was playing the pity card and acted as if he was totally innocent. They just don't make media people like they used to (i.e Chris Economacki). As far as BSPN (no typo) goes, here's their list of priorities: Tim Tebow, Lebron James, teams from the east coast, having very annoying analysts, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson (not Ocho Cinco), Miami Heat, Tom Brady, the Mannings, touchdown dances, "Not Top 10 plays", starting quarterbacks, Dallas Cowboys, starting running backs/wide receivers, big-name injuries, Tiger Woods, Heisman Trophy finalists, Michael Jordan being a bad GM, college football, Dale Earnhardt Jr., racism in sports, the rest of the NFL, the rest of the NBA, the rest of the MLB, sports deaths, NASCAR, soccer, anything that has to do with hockey. 321. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I did not know that, but having great lower level success doesn't mean much once you reach the top levels in auto racing; in Joey's case, that would be NASCAR. I'll give you an example: I don't think a lot of people know this, but Jason Leffler is a 3-time National midget car champion and is in the National Midget Auto Racing Hall of Fame. So while Jason has some great racing accolades, no one is going to claim Jason of being a great race car driver because we've seen what he can do in a stock car, and most of the time it's not pretty (heck, his '05 Cup season was one of the most pathetic seasons I've ever seen). 322. murb posted: 10.16.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As far as BSPN (no typo) goes, here's their list of priorities: Tim Tebow, Lebron James, teams from the east coast, having very annoying analysts, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson (not Ocho Cinco), Miami Heat, Tom Brady, the Mannings, touchdown dances, "Not Top 10 plays", starting quarterbacks, Dallas Cowboys, starting running backs/wide receivers, big-name injuries, Tiger Woods, Heisman Trophy finalists, Michael Jordan being a bad GM, college football, Dale Earnhardt Jr., racism in sports, the rest of the NFL, the rest of the NBA, the rest of the MLB, sports deaths, NASCAR, soccer, anything that has to do with hockey." lol, That's perfect!!! Although, you forgot a few things, like Danica, Jeremy Lin (although maybe not as much now since he's on the Rockets instead of the Knicks), and Joe Paterno even though he's been dead for nine months. Also, great write there on Derrick Cope. I always felt he was underrated. It would have been neat to see what he could have done with a top flight ride in the Cup series in the 90s. As for the Eldora Truck thing, I don't know how close it is to happening. I just read it on ESPN. Also in the article, it said that RCR is scheduled to test Trucks there sometime in the near future. So maybe if that goes well it will be a distinct possibility. I know Tony has been wanting some type of a Nascar race there. That reminds me, remember back when Tony won the IROC title in '06? I remember hearing about if they would have come back for another season, that it was a done deal that they would have raced at Eldora. Of course, we all know what happened: IROC couldn't find a sponsor, and Tony's been bugging Nascar about getting some type of stock car race over there. Hey, it works for ARCA. Why not in Nascar? 323. murb posted: 10.16.2012 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, when I say it works for ARCA, I realize that they don't race at Eldora. I just mean that it looks like they are able to run well on dirt tracks, so why not in the big leagues? 324. Paul posted: 10.16.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I can't believe I forgot about the Queen of the Nationwide Series. Maybe it's because I change the channel every time they interview her or show one of those insurance commercials she and Junior are in, that it caused me to forget. I guess in a way, she doesn't exist in the world I live in, and sometimes it's best to just ignore these types of things. 325. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.16.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And BSPN (love it!) cannot allow 3 days go by without talking about Jerry Sandusky which makes all of our collective blood boil just hearing his name. We can't just let the guy privately spend the rest of his life rotting away in jail while hopefully being constantly sodomized. BSPN has to bring that awful name up. 326. Smiff_2 posted: 10.17.2012 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) WOOOOOW!!!!! NASCAR's considering a Truck series race at Eldora!!!!! Let's go dirt-trackin', boys!!! 327. cjs3872 posted: 10.17.2012 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, not everyone here thinks Dale, Sr. ranks undeniably as one of the top three drivers in the history of NASCAR's top series, because I have him fourth, but his three sets of back-to-back championships, much like the Pittsburgh Steelers' twin set of back-to-back Super Bowl championships in the 1970s, is an unequaled feat in the history of the sport. The main reason I don't have Earnhardt in my top three is his relative lack of victories when compared to the other legends in the top seven all-time, especially considering his towering number of championships, which is the main pillar on which his legacy stands. In fact, he finished second almost as often as he won (76 wins, 70 second place finishes). I'll be creating a multi-part blog, in which I'll be releasing my all-time list of the greatest drivers in NASCAR's top division after the season ends, probably in groups of five to seven, and it will probably total 40. 328. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, that's fine. Maybe I shouldn't have sounded so deductive when I proclaimed Earnhardt as one of the top 3 drivers of all-time. Since you have him at #4, I'm guessing that your top 3 are Petty, Pearson, and Allison? Also, if I were you I would rank the top 50 drivers, kind of how NASCAR made a list of "The 50 Greatest Drivers" to commemorate their 50th anniversary back in 1998. 329. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Timmy Hill will be back in the #32 this week, instead of the previously mentioned T.J. Bell. For a 19-year old driver, Timmy is certainly doing well for himself and never wrecks, which is amazing for a driver his age. Kelly Bires has a sponsor and may run the full race this weekend, that is, if he qualifies. 330. cjs3872 posted: 10.17.2012 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Paul, my top three are Petty, Gordon, and Allison, with Dale, Sr. fourth. What I intend to do is to not only list those drivers in that multi-part blog I was talking about, but list stats and accomplishments to help explain my reasoning behind listing them where I do. 331. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I'm looking forward to reading that list. Very rarely do people rank Gordon that high. I have him in my top five in no particular order along with Petty, Pearson, Allison, and Earnhardt, with Waltrip and Cale being just outside in 6th and 7th. One thing I want to mention about Gordon is that you (not you cjs, just in general) can't fault him for being put into a top flight ride in his early 20s while others like Dale and Bobby were in their late 20s/early 30s before they got a top flight ride. I think the fact that Jeff accomplished so much so early makes him even greater because if you look at other names like Logano, Ragan, and others that were put in top rides to begin their careers and see how little they've accomplished, it only increases Gordon's legend. And while he had tremendous driving talent, perhaps his greatest attribute is his level-headed manner of staying focused and not beating himself, even at a young age that is truly astounding. A lot of people say that Stewart and the Busch brothers are the most talented drivers behind the wheel. That may be true, but look what it's gotten them. They have a lot of wins, but also have a lot of blown opportunities because they either couldn't handle their success or took their attention off the main prize: The championship. Because of that, I would agree that Jeff Gordon is among the five greatest NASCAR drivers and can see why you would put him in your top 3. 332. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.17.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i don't think that kelly bires will be running the full cup race if he qualifies. re-load wellness products is the sponsor, and every time they have been a sponsor on randy hill racing's (go green racing's semi-teammate) nationwide car they have start and parked. 333. Talon64 posted: 10.17.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a stat that speaks volumes as to whether Clint Bowyer's decision to leave RCR for MWR was the correct one. Clint Bowyer has 8 top 5's this year, a new career high. Not only that, those are more than RCR (6) has combined this season! In fact, it's more than every team that runs Earnhardt-Ganassi engines (9 teams, between RCR, EGR, FRR and TBR)has combined as well; they only have 7, 6 for RCR and one for FRR. Good on Clint and good on MWR. 334. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave, that's not entirely true. Randy Hill's #08 Nationwide car has run the distance 10 times this season, and attempted to do so another six times before falling out due to a part failure or a crash. Of course, it should be noted that when Kyle Fowler drove it at Indy and this past week at Charlotte, Randy Hill/Go Green Racing loaned their #39 number to Rick Ware for Jeffrey Earnhardt to drive, meaning that in those two races the #08 was actually the #39 team. That said, they have attempted to go the distance almost half the time with both cars, which is far better than last year when they ran the #39 full-time and only made a few starts in a second start-and-park car. Usually, they have Tim Andrews (who works on the car even when he's not driving) start-and-park the #08, and have a slew of other drivers (usually Kyle Fowler) attempt to run the full race when they have enough funding. Even when the #08 doesn't have a sponsor, they still attempt the full race if the #39 does. When Josh Richards drove the #39 with sponsorship from "Joy Mining" for 11 races, the #08 attempted the full race six times in that stretch. So they are capable of running the full race sponsor or not in the Nationwide Series, and have done so almost half the time. I don't know if the #79 Cup car will attempt the full race, but I think there is a chance because a.) they picked up a sponsor for the race and b.) both the #08 and #39 cars are sponsored this weekend, with drivers Scott Saunders and Dexter Stacey, respectively. 335. Smiff_2 posted: 10.17.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seriously, guys? lol THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT BRINGING NASCAR BACK TO DIRT....nobody's gonna offer their input on this? 336. Spen posted: 10.17.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Getting us back to the topic of early starters vs. late starters again, I think that having those extra years of competing at a very young age has an averse affect on how long a driver will stay competitive. Look at Bobby Labonte and Dale Jarrett. DJ was already in his twenties when he first climbed inside a race car, and while it took him a while to really get going, he was a serious year-in year-out contender in his late thirties and early fourties, and was still able to be in the top fifteen in points and sneak in a win at 48. While Bobby, who started at age 6, won a Busch title in his second full season, and was a Cup winner by his third season, basically became totally irrelevent after turning 40. I believe there's a corrolation there. Which is why I think that over the next five years, we will start seeing a rapid "Changing of the guard" as drivers like Biffle, Gordon, Stewart, Kenseth, Junior, Johnson and Harvick quickly become irrelevent. I don't believe that any of our current drivers will win a non-plate race after turning 45. It just won't happen anymore. 337. cjs3872 posted: 10.17.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, what you just posted is exactly why I use a driver's 17th year and 550th start as a reference point to when a driver begins to slide, rather than chronological age. History tels you that a great driver begins to slide after his 17th full season, and/or his 550th career start. Why that is, I don't know. Instances of this include Darrell Waltrip, who's last big year was 1989, which was his 17th in NASCAR's highest series. The same is true of Dale Earnhardt, Sr. His last big year was 1995, which was his 17th full year in NASCAR's top series. And Rusty Wallace's last big year was 2000. And guess what? 2000 was Rusty's 17th year in NASCAR's top series. Until Jimmie Johnson passed Wallace on the wins list this year, Waltrip, Earnhardt, and Wallace were three of the four biggest winners among drivers whose careers stared in the modern era, and the last great season for each of them was their 17th. Even Richard Petty (1975) and David Pearson (1976) had their final big seasons in their 17th season. 338. murb posted: 10.17.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT BRINGING NASCAR BACK TO DIRT....nobody's gonna offer their input on this?" lol, We've brought it up multiple times but no one seems to care. As much as I hope it happens though, I'm not gonna get my hopes up. 339. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cole Whitt picked up a sponsor this week in the #33 car. With this, there could be as many as 38 cars attempting to run the distance as now he and Kelly Bires have sponsorship, and TBR may have Dave Blaney run the distance since Danica will be in the #10 this week. 340. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.17.2012 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt not top three? You have got to be kidding. Especially behind Gordon. Gordon isn't even better than Johnson. 341. Eric posted: 10.17.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, Biffle, Jr.,and Kenseth started racing later than Stewart, Johnson,Gordon, and harvick. The race info I found on Biffle dates back to late 1980's or early 1990's. That means Biffle got his start in racing at a later age then Kevin Harvick, Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon as examples. Matt Kenseth got his start in racing when he was 16 years old. That means he doesn't the miles on him as Harvick. Dale Jr. didn't start to race before he was 17 years old. Stewart won a Karting championship when 16 and that meant started racing younger that Biffle, Kenseth, and Dale Jr. Jeff started racing by the time he turned 6. Jimmie Johnson got his start at racing when he was 4 or 5 years old. Kevin Harvick got his start at racing when he was 4 or 5. All this means is Stewart, Jeff, Jimmie, and Harvick are the drivers expect to that fit your 45 years old theory, not Biffle, and Kenseth. I am not saying Dale Jr. because his problem is concussions and don't know how they will affect his racing. I think he could have as many as 5 concussions in his racing career already. I am under the impression that Dale Jr. could retire before he turns 45 because of his concern about his health since he has more money than most cup drivers are. Dale Jr. is estimated to be worth 300 million dollars and never got married yet. That means he doesn't have the same issue as Jeff Gordon since his first wife took a good amount of his career earnings. 342. cjs3872 posted: 10.17.2012 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the plain truth is that at this moment in history, Gordon is ahead of Johnson. Remember that Gordon s never really had a fair chance to battle Johnson head-to-head very often in their careers, and when they have, it's very close with a slight edge to Gordon. Chad Knaus saw to it that Gordon didn't get a fair chance with Johnson that often, because he knew that Gn would be Johnsn's biggest threat in equal cars. 2004 proved that, as did 2007. And what happens last year? Gordon moves away from under Chad Knaus' thumb and for the first time since Johnson's rookie season, actually outperformed him most of the year. And this year, Gordon would be up there, except for rotten luck and slow cars, which may be the result of Kenny Francis, another crew chief known for not sharing information, joining Gordon in the 5/24 shop. And put Gordon and Johnson in equal cars today, with equally competent crew chiefs (which Gordon has not had since 2005), and more often than not, I'll take Gordon over Johnson, even now, especially on the driver's tracks, though the margin would be extremely small. Johnson's moving up my rankings, bordering on the top ten, while Gordon moved to second on my list with his 86th career win at Pocono, albeit the luckiest win of his career. 343. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been waiting for DSFF to chime in on this discussion for quite some time. I don't know why you threw Jimmie in this debate since we're discussing the greatest DRIVERS, not driver/crew chief combinations. But since you did, I'm going to list my reasons for why Gordon is better than Johnson: 1. Gordon won his first championship in his 3rd season at age 24. Johnson, who was a rookie in the Busch Series at age 24, won his first championship in his 5th season at age 31 (two years older than Earnhardt). 2. In the 9 years before Gordon joined HMS ('84-'92), they had 32 wins and 0 championships. In the 9 years before Johnson joined HMS ('93-'01), they had 71 wins and 4 championships, including the most recent championship, so he was entering a powerhouse team. 3. It took Gordon only 232 starts to reach 50 wins (22%). It took Johnson 307 starts to reach 50 wins (16%), despite having more races on the schedule and being on a better team than it was a decade prior. 4. Under your criteria of NASCAR's "Triple Crown" (most points, most wins, most laps led), Gordon won the Triple Crown twice in his four championship seasons ('95 and '01), while Johnson only did so once in his five championship seasons ('09). 5. Gordon had a stretch of five straight seasons with at least 7 wins, including three straight 10+ wins seasons. Johnson could only achieve three straight 7 win seasons, and one one had 10 wins, despite the lesser competition and more races on the schedule. 6. Gordon has won races for all four of his crew chiefs, including winning championships with two of them (three if you include '07 when he technically scored the most points). Johnson has only won races for one crew chief. Now it's not JJ's fault that he's only had one crew chief, but the fact that Gordon has won with four (including championships with two) proves that he can win no matter who's on the box. 7. Gordon battled back injuries for three seasons, finishing 3rd in the points in '09 (2nd without the Chase), and won the second race of 2011 after his injury healed over the offseason. 8. Gordon won more races against better competition and more level-headed drivers in fewer races (Earnhardt, Martin, Rusty, Jarrett, Rudd, Marlin, Stewart, both Labontes, Jeff Burton, Bill Elliott) than Johnson who has won against both great drivers (Gordon, Kenseth, Stewart, Martin) and fragile drivers (Edwards, Busch brothers, Harvick, Hamlin, Stewart again). 9. Gordon has four seasons of at least 20 top five finishes, including three straight. Johnson only has two, and neither of them have done so since '07. 10. Gordon has had 7 seasons where he finished outside the top 10 no more than 11 times. Johnson has never made fewer than 12 non-top 10 finishes in a season. I'm not going to do like JG24FanForever and pull up every single statistic that exists (I'll leave that to him if he so chooses). But I think because of those ten reasons, along with the fact that Gordon made that team a championship team, while Johnson inherited a championship team and still hasn't accomplished what Gordon has (yeah you won five championships against a fleet of wannabes where only the final 10 races matter. Pat yourself on the back) and dominated the way Gordon has is why I have Gordon ranked higher. I'm trying to take anything away from Jimmie, but I truly believe that Gordon in his prime could have beaten Jimmie in his. Heck, in the past year, we've seen Gordon outrun Jimmie when they had the two best cars at Atlanta last year (classic duel), and Martinsville and Dover this year. Plus, we can thank Jimmie for taking a page out of Kyle Busch's handbook by beating himself at Pocono and giving Gordon his only win this season. 344. cjs3872 posted: 10.17.2012 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, your statement about Jimmie Johnson about winning with just one crew chief is not totally accurate. Remember that he won two of the first three races in 2006, including the Daytona 500, with Darian Grubb as his crew chief, because Chad Knaus was suspended for one of his numerous cheating violations. And I don't think that Johnson has won a race like the 1994 Brickyard 400 or the 2005 Daytona 500, in that both of those races were crown jewels with the most successful drivers of each represented era finishing among the leaders, andgordon won both times. In the 1994 Brickyard 400, the third through sixth place finishers were, in order, Bill Elliott, Rusty Wallace, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., and Darrell Waltrip. In the 2005 Daytona 500, which Gordon also won, the drivers trailing him in the top ten were the likes of Kurt Busch, Dale, Jr., Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Mark Martin, Sterling Marlin, and Rusty Wallace, all of whom finished in the top ten that day. And when you listed the drivers that Gordon had to race and win against, you forgot Darrell Waltrip (granted, he was on his last legs when Gordon got there), Geoff Bodine, and Ernie Irvan, who he had some memorable battles with, including that 1994 Brickyard 400, and the 1996 night race at Bristol, which Irvan won in a photo finish. 345. David posted: 10.17.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm not going to do like JG24FanForever and pull up every single statistic that exists" HAHAHAHAHAHahahaHAhahahahahaHAHAha!!! So true (No offense JG24). I would list a few reasons why Gordon is better than Johnson, but Paul pretty much took them all. 346. Paul posted: 10.17.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, thanks again for the stat check, I always know I can count on you for that. I was referring to their full-time crew chiefs, but Johnson did win two races, including his lone Daytona 500 with Darian Grubb (btw, part of me wants to see Denny win this championship just because I really like Darian Grubb), so I should have mentioned him as well. I completely forgot to mention Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine, as they were still competitive in the mid-'90s (even Ernie had some success after his Michigan crash). And even though Darrell was past his prime (and housing his own engines only made it worse), he was still a legend that Gordon beat and had a few decent runs during that time, including '98, which was his "swan song" year as he had some really good runs in that #1 car. And since you mentioned Daytona 500s, here's who they had to beat to win their Daytona 500s: Gordon had to beat Terry Labonte (defending champion), Ricky Craven (finished 3rd with a concussion), Bill Elliott (past champion and Daytona 500 winner), Dale Earnhardt (7-time champion and reigning Daytona 500 champion), Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (reigning Daytona 500 champion), and Kurt Busch (reigning champion). Johnson on the other hand had to hold off Ryan Newman and Casey Mears, two drivers who have combined for 5 wins in the last 7 seasons, to win his only Daytona 500, the only time he ever had a shot at winning the race. By the way, Casey Mears won his only Sprint Cup race the next season in a "crown jewel" that Jimmie has won three times, the Coca-Cola 600, with Darian Grubb as his crew chief, the very crew chief that led Jimmie to his only Daytona 500. 347. murb posted: 10.18.2012 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Gordon is better than Johnson. There is no denying that Jimmie and his team have created one of the greatest dynasties in American motorsports history. But as far as individual drivers go, I believe Jeff is just a bit better. My main reason for thinking this is based on how he has stayed relevant for just about 20 years. And like Paul said on his list, in those 20 years, he's done it with different people around him. He won three championships with Ray Evernham, won one with Robbie Loomis, and was extremely close to winning one with Steve Letarte (2007). Now, obviously, Jimmie has stayed relevant for 10 years, but I really don't see him staying as the top dog (or one of the top dogs) for another 10 years. I've shared this before on here, but my way of ranking drivers in a "best of all time" category is done a little differently. I do it in a pyramid type of style. However, I've rarely gone back deep into the history of Nascar to see the impacts that guys like Fireball Roberts and Joe Weatherly made (although I greatly respect them), so this pyramid style list I guess would better be titled "best of the modern era". From 1972 to present. Here's my list: First Level of The Pyramid (Three Greatest of All Time) - Richard Petty (Obviously.) - Dale Earnhardt (Obviously.) - Jeff Gordon (For the reasons mentioned above.) Second Level of The Pyramid (Undoubtable Legends.) - David Pearson - Cale Yarborough - Jimmie Johnson - Darrell Waltrip - Bobby Allison - Tony Stewart Third Level of The Pyramid (Other champions and/or legends.) - Rusty Wallace - Bill Elliott - Mark Martin - Terry Labonte Fourth Level of The Pyramid (Guys that are undeservedly forgotten about that made their presence felt.) - Alan Kulwicki - Davey Allison - Tim Richmond - Harry Gant - Benny Parsons - Neil Bonnett Fifth Level of The Pyramid (Best of the rest.) - Dale Jarrett - Ricky Rudd - Ernie Irvan - Geoffrey Bodine (Sorry, DSFF.) - Matt Kenseth - Bobby Labonte - Jeff Burton And finally, current guys who can perhaps add their names to one of these levels at the end of their careers. - Kyle Busch (If he can bring it all together in his head and go out and accomplish what he's capable of doing.) - Denny Hamlin (If he wins a championship at some point, which looks pretty likely, then I think I'll add him on somewhere.) - Brad Keselowski (There's no telling how far he can go. Sky's the limit.) - Carl Edwards (He might not ever win a championship, but I believe that when it's all said and done he will be one of the five greatest from this current era.) - Greg Biffle (I think that if he does end up winning a Cup championship, and he becomes the first guy to win one in all three series, then it will be an incredible achievement. It's pretty unlikely at this point in his career, but I would definitely put him on somewhere if he were able to do it.) 348. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, if you want to break down the Daytona 500s that Gordon won, in 1997, he had to beat the likes of Terry Labonte, Bill Elliott, Ernie Irvan, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., and Dale Jarrett and Sterling Marlin, who had combined to win the previous FOUR Daytona 500s between them. And in 1999, which was had the weakest competition of his three Daytona 500 triumphs due to a 14-car crash at the two-thirds mark, he still had to beat Earnhardt and Rusty Wallace. And of course, his 2005 Daytona 500 win saw him beat he likes of reigning series champion Kurt Busch, reigning 500 champion Dale, Jr., Jimmmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Sterling Marlin, Rusty Wallace, and Mark Martin. It always seemed that whenever Gordon won one of the big ones, especially when he was at or near his best, he always had to beat the best to do it, and he almost always did, which is why I say that Gordon is NASCAR's answer to Jack Nicklaus, who not only won the biggest events in golf more than anyone else, but always seemed to have to beat the best to do it, and ended up beating four generations of champions to do it. On the other hand, Jimmie Johnson had to beat Ryan Newman, Casey Mears, and Brian Vickers for his 500 victory, while his Brickyard 400 and Coca-Cola 600 wins usually came against lesser competition. (His 2004 Coca-Cola 600 victory came with Michael Waltrip in second place and Elliott Sadler his closest competition for most of the race, for example.) And other than his first Brickyard 400, he usually didn't have to beat the best for his Brickyard trophies, either. His second came in the tire debacle of 2008, he was handed the 2009 race by Juan Montoya and Mark Martin, and this year's race saw Kyle Busch and Greg Biffle come home second and third. Gordon's four Brickyard wins saw him have to beat much stiffer competition, as Elliott, Wallace, Earnhardt, and Darrell Waltrip finishd 3-4-5-6 in 1994, and he had still competition from Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan, as well, his 1998 win there saw Martin, Bobby Labonte, and Dale, Sr. among the top five finishers, his softest competition among his wins came in the 2001 race, but he still had to beat Sterling Marlin, and Rusty Wallace was also among the top finishers, and he had to outrun Matt Kenseth and Jarrett in the 2004 race, and aside from Jarrett, Kasey Kahne and Tony Stewart also finished in the top five. In short, Gordon's big wins have always seemed to come against the stiffest competition the sport had to offer, and yet he rarely blinked when faced with the challenge, while Johnson's biggest wins have come with lesser drivers challenging him more often than one might think, though his Southern 500 win this year was one of the rare times he had to beat one of the top drivers (Tony Stewart) to win a big event. It would be something to see Gordon win a couple more big ones, and show yet another generation of fans and competitors that he's the greatest ever in the sport's biggest events. In fact, I think a fourth Daytona 500 win in the future would remind everyone just how great he's been in the big ones over the years. 349. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, the plain truth is 5 is a bigger number than 4. Throw in the fact JJ is the only driver in Earnhardt's class of season closers, while Jeff is famous for weak ending to seasons, including 3 consecutive seasons that officially rank as "horrific late season fades" ('95-'97), and the fact JJ isn't that far behind Jeff in career wins despite starting 9 years later and has outperformed him in IN THE EXACT SAME EQUIPMENT (and again, Jeff co-owns that team, if Chad was cutting him off, Jeff has nobody to blame but himself) I see no way I can historically rank Gordon ahead of Johnson. And oh yeah, 7 is a much bigger number than 4. 350. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) When it comes to the #48 bunch, you have to throw in the "Chad Knaus" factor. How much of the their success has come honestly. For how many times Chad has been busted for cheating, it holds the #48 legecy back a great deal. Atleast Jeff Gordon doesn't have that hanging over his head and fans don't forget. 351. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So what, DSFF. 7 is a much bigger number than 1, and I rank Bobby Allison ahead of Dale Earnhardt on my all-time driver list, despite winning just one championship to Earnhardt's seven. Again, championships may be the be-all and end-all for you, but it's not for me, and never has been. It's a significant factor to be sure, but not the most important factor I use when ranking drivers. What I do is to take everything I can into account, wins, championships, dominance, versatility, longevity, level of competition, etc. In fact, it's an overall lack of the level of competition he faced that has David Pearson lower on my list than on practically anyone else's list. Dominance is why I have Bobby Isaac, Junior Johnson, Herb Thomas, and Fireball Roberts as high on my list as I do. And it's versatility that has Jeff Gordon and Bobby Allison ranked where I rank them. And I wouldn't call what happened to Gordon in 1996 as a horrific late season fade. Remember that most of his lost points came in one race, the fall Charlotte race when he blew an engine and Terry Labonte won the race. Labonte gained 110 points on Gordon in that one race. And as for Knaus not sharing information when his and the #24 team were in the same building, remember that Chad Knaus effectively gained carte blance on competition side of Hendrick Motorsports as a result of the 2004 HMS plane crash. Many of those that were killed were of the "Gordon era" at HMS, including John Hendrick and Randy Dorton. With them out of the way and Rick Hendrick grieving, Chad Knaus basically took control of the competition side of HMS late in the 2004 season. And note that, even with Gordon out of that building, Knaus was starting to do the same thing in regards to not sharing information with the #88 team at the beginning of this year's Chase, so Knaus was stopping the info sharing this year, as well. 352. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And not just Knaus' reputation for cheating, but also how he frequently kept the other HMS teams out of the loop, in terms of what the #48 was running. Another reason I rank Gordon where I do is that the competition level, in terms of the caliber of drivers was at it's best from 1994-2002, because you not only had Gordon and Earnhardt, but Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett, Jeff Burton, Sterling Marlin, Ricky Rudd, Bill Elliott, Tony Stewart, and about a dozen other top caliber drivers, who not only had great talent, but were mentally tough. On the other hand, the drivers that Jimmie Johnson has had to contend with aren't quite as tough, as a group, nor are there quite as many top-notch drivers. In fact, there's not been a driver enter the series in the last seven or eight years that has the total package, as the talent well had dried up, and the drivers that Johnson has beaten for his five championships aren't nearly the overall caliber as the ones that Gordon had to beat. Many of the drivers that Johnson has beaten for his titles have the talent, but not the toughness required. Drivers like Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, and Kevin Harvick, who Johnson has beaten, simply do not measure up to drivers such as Dale Earnhardt, Sr., Rusty Wallace, and Dale Jarrett, Hall of Fame caliber drivers that Gordon beat in his prime. The only top-notch driver that had an equal chance at the championship that Johnson has beaten for a title that Gordon did not beat was Matt Kenseth. (Mark Martin was beaten by both of them.) Gordon had no shot in 2007 due to Knaus' underhandedness, which actually torpedoed Gordon in 2004, and may have doomed Johnson's chances in 2004. 353. 10andJoe posted: 10.18.2012 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This just in: Geoff Bodine has announced his retirement ("99.9% sure I won't drive again") from racing. 354. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.18.2012 - 6:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It isn't just championship total, it is how they won them, who they won them with, and how they performed in championship battles. I give Bobby somewhat of a pass for just one championship because he spent his entire career as a vegabond, but he still had horrific collapses in '81 and '82 and lost a winnable title in '72. That is why Dale is #1. He won 7 (tied most ever). Experienced a degree of career shuffling from '81 thru '84 so he didn't have it made in the shade. He won one for Rod Osterlund in his second season (never done before, hasn't been done since) and that team's 3rd season with a barely sponsored car. Rod then bailed, try to get back in it in the late 80's with the disasterous Heinz 57 car. He then won 67 races and 6 championships for Richard Childress. His non Dale results? Meh. Also, he was in the thick of the title hunt late in the season an astounding 8 times. He won 7 of those. He knew how to close a season out. And that is why I see no way to rank JJ behind Gordon historically. They have had identical career arcs for the exact same organization. He has already passed him in championship total. JJ has also shown an Earnhardt-esque season closing ability. What am I missing? 355. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's simple, DSFF. In the time that Gordon was the dominant driver, he had much stiffer competition at the top of the sport than Johnson and compiled bigger statistics. I don't know if it was ESPN or SPEED that compared the two at their best within the last week or two, but their numbers were compared when they were at their best, and except for championships, Gordon had the best in virtually every other main statistic, and they ran slightly fewer races in the late 90s than they do now, yet Gordon won the most races five consecutive years, AVERAGING more than nine wins a season from 1995-'99, and eight per season from 1995-2001. I think whoever it was also said that Gordon won 29% of the time in his 5-year peak compared to 19% in Johnson's 5-year peak. Now certainly there were more competitve cars in Johnson's peak than in Gordon's peak. That much is indisputeable. But the drivers at the top were better in Gordon's time than in Johnson's. There are more good drivers now, but there are only a handful of great ones. But back in the 90s, there were more great drivers than there are now. It's somewhat like comparing the golfers when Tiger Woods was dominating to the golfers in the era when Jack Nicklaus was the king of the sport. There were more good golfers when Tiger doiminated, but there were far more great ones in Nicklaus' era. The difference between the era when Gordon dominated and when Johnson controlled things, which is the present, is that the competition at the top was tougher for Gordon, but the number of drivers that could win is greater now because there are more cars capable of winning, if the right driver got put in the car. In other words, there are more second and third-tier drivers who seem to get intimidated by the moment today than there were in the 90s, but the top drivers of the 90s were greater than the top drivers of today, because very little intimidated them, especially when the big moments came. 356. Dave #38 Fan posted: 10.18.2012 - 9:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) paul, i wasn't saying that the #08 nns car has start and parked every race this year, i was saying that when they had re-load wellness products, which is kelly bires "sponsor" for the cup race this week, they start and parked. they were the sponsor on the #08 car at iowa with josh richards, and they parked 32 laps into the race, so i'm not expecting bires to run the full cup race in the unlikely event that he qualifies in the first place. 357. I love Japan posted: 10.18.2012 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just read on ESPN that Hamlin wrecked in a test at Kansas this morning. Hopefully all goes well there. Doesn't sound too serious but nott oo much is being said. Just some food for thought. 358. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Parker Kligerman says he will most likely move up to the Nationwide Series full-time in 2013. He didn't give any details on his team, but hinted that he has a deal in place. The only competitive teams I see him going to are Turner Motorsports, RCR's #2 car, and Penske's #12 if Hornish doesn't return. 359. 12345Dude posted: 10.18.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie has beaten Jeff in almost all of his years racing. Even if Jeff was ripped off by Chad that's his own fault. Make a stance, stick up for yourself, tell Rick. Put your foot down! You made Hendrick Motorsports! Also Go Daddy might leave Danica. (on Jayski) 360. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, maybe the reason that Jeff didn't tell Rick about the hiding of information, other than the fact the he's not the kind to do something of that sort, was that Chad Knaus flat-out intimidated anyone that tried to tell Rick about Knaus' hiding information from the other Hendrick teams that if they did tell Rick, that there woud be sever consequences if they did. Remember that I suspect Knaus started doing this at about the time of the Hendrick plane crash, so what he, in effect did, was to take advantage of the situation and basically put himself in charge of the competition department at HMS, which in turn tilted everything over to the #48 team, where it remains to this day. And again, Knaus will share information only to help another HMS team get so far, but then when the Chase starts, step on the spicket and stop sharing information, because sharing information would help the other HMS beat his. And I suspect that, as much as Jeff Gordon has been hurt by this over much of the last decade (as well as other HMS drivers), he was helped by this same practice when Ray Evernham was calling the shots for him, because Evernham was also know for being a ruthless taskmaster and not sharing information when he was Gordon's crew chief. Remember that Evernham more than likely took advantage of Rick's problems in 1996-'97 and took over the competition department over there in the same way. Also remember that when Gordon and Terry Labonte battled for the championship that there was so much tension that the two teams ended up at opposite ends of the HMS complex. The biggest problem is that Rick is such a nice person that often times his employees take advantage of that, because it's not normally in Rick's personality to draw a line, and I suspect that Evernham and Knaus have both taken advantage of that, and Kenny Francis my be starting to, as well. One of the rare times I can remember Rick putting his foot down was at the fall race at Martinsville in 2003 when Chad Knaus told Johnson to move Gordon late in that race, possibly even wrecking him, and Rick told Knaus that he once had cars running 1-2 at Martinsville in 1990 that crashed each other. So there was friction between the #24 and #48 teams as far back as 2003, but neither Rick or Jeff are the kind of people to out the foot down, especially after the plane crash in 2004, after which Knaus took control of the competition side of the company, and probably warned the other teams tha if word got to Rick Hendrick about a lack of information sharing, that there would be substantial consequences, especially if that complaint came from the other team in the same building. 361. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Another reason I rank Gordon where I do is that the competition level, in terms of the caliber of drivers was at it's best from 1994-2002, because you not only had Gordon and Earnhardt, but Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett, Jeff Burton, Sterling Marlin, Ricky Rudd, Bill Elliott, Tony Stewart, and about a dozen other top caliber drivers, who not only had great talent, but were mentally tough. " Wow, totally disagree. I think people are MASSIVELY overrating the "mental toughness" aspect here. I think most of that period (especially 1997-2000) was one of the SHALLOWER periods in NASCAR history. There were several drivers (especially Jeff Burton and Bobby Labonte) who were championship contenders then who wouldn't have been in any other period. Dale Earnhardt - basically no longer a title contender after his 1996 Talladega crash. I don't think his 2000 was particularly impressive (one of the worst second-place seasons of all time, but better than Martin's 2002) and that was an early example of RCR's conservative strategy that would be employed again and again by Harvick and Bowyer later. I don't think he ever would have won a title again (or come close) if he'd lived. It hurts his case that he kind of got blown out by Bobby Labonte, the worst champion of the modern era (seriously, I'd take Kyle Busch or especially Denny Hamlin over him EASILY). Rusty Wallace - still good for a win a year but basically no longer a title contender after he lost Buddy Parrott, started making too many of his own pit calls, and Ray Evernham copied Parrott's pit innovations (pit crew trainers, etc...) Mark Martin & Dale Jarrett - Jeff Gordon's two legitimate week-in, week-out threats for titles. Jarrett got one, Martin didn't, but you have two there. I'd actually say they were the ONLY great drivers in their championship-caliber prime Gordon was competing against. Jeff Burton - Like Bobby Labonte, he keeps looking worse and worse historically the more he sucks around the track, because he wasn't all that hot to start with. Okay, he succeeded where a lot of Roush drivers at the same time failed, but he didn't win a title in a shallow period when even Bobby did, and Martin OWNED him in 1997-98 and Kenseth and Kurt Busch OWNED him in 2002-04. '99-'00 I guess he had a BIT of an edge over Martin but not as much as it looked, and '01 Roush in general sucked. It doesn't add up to much to me. Like Jeff Gordon and Bobby Labonte, Burton's win total was inflated by competing in this weak period. Gordon's still one of the all-time legends, but Burton and Labonte have to be two of the worst drivers EVER to reach 20 wins. I used to say the same about Dale Jarrett but he's kind of looking BETTER in retrospect to me lately, especially watching too many of his peers not knowing when to quit, and watching Todd Parrott do nothing since leaving RYR. Sterling Marlin - Come on, if you're going to knock people like Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards, what's your justification for listing him? Just because he was "mentally tough" enough to win "marquee races"? The #4 car would have won with practically any driver on the plate tracks including drivers you consider "mentally weak", especially in the '95 Daytona 500 when the Morgan-McClure car was by FAR faster than anything else on the track. I do think he was underrated and I'd probably rate him higher than even Bobby Labonte myself, but he was never a title threat, and there are TONS of today's drivers I'd take over him. Ricky Rudd - Definitely underrated but probably beginning to fade from his early-'90s peak and not really any sort of title threat to Gordon. I DO think he would have done every bit as well as Terry Labonte in the #5 car (I honestly think Rudd was better than Terry), so he might have been had he stayed there and not become an owner-driver. Bill Elliott - Also struggled through most of that period as an owner-driver, but I don't think he would have been a title contender at that point in good equipment anyway based on his last two years at Junior Johnson and his wildly inconsistent years at Evernham later. Tony Stewart - His ascendance started at the same time as the end of Jeff Gordon's dynasty. Let me add a few names: Geoff Bodine - Great driver in my mind, but his career was spontaneously combusting at the same time Jeff Gordon became a household name at the '94 Brickyard, and was no longer really relevant afterward. Ernie Irvan - Badly underrated by everyone (I will go to my grave thinking he was better than Davey, and I'm seemingly the only one) but after his return he wasn't really a title threat. I think if he'd had Todd Parrott and Jarrett had had Larry Mac (if Irvan had returned in the #88 and Jarrett in the #28) things MAY have been different, but as much as I liked Irvan and didn't like Jarrett, I have to grudgingly admit Jarrett was probably better after Irvan's return. Terry Labonte - He was a title threat to Gordon but he honestly SHOULDN'T have been since Gordon would have probably eliminated him in 1996 a race or two early with any points system designed CORRECTLY. In other words, in my opinion, that REALLY wasn't a strong period. There were a lot of FADING legends (some of whom could still win races for a while - Earnhardt, Rusty, T. Labonte, Rudd, Elliott, Irvan, G. Bodine) but NONE of them were really title contenders after 1996. Marlin never was (his 2002 points lead was almost by default because everybody else fell flat on their face just as they were about to pass him and not especially impressive to me). There were two legends in their prime (Martin, Jarrett). There were two MASSIVELY overrated drivers who peaked in that period almost by default (J. Burton, B. Labonte). That's about it really. The period Earnhardt dominated in 1986-1994 was a hell of a lot stronger. Sorry. Think of all the guys who peaked in the first half of the '90s: Kulwicki, Rusty (his '93 > his '89...the problem was Earnhardt's '93 was better also), Gant, Irvan, Davey, Rudd, arguably Bodine, arguably Martin (Martin had better stats in the second half of the '90s, but again, weaker period...) The ONLY major driver who peaked in the late '90s besides Gordon was Dale Jarrett. That's IT. 362. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do have to say the period when Johnson dominated was superior to the period when Gordon dominated. Gordon fell to earth (still good for multiple wins every year for most of the 2000s, but no more 10-win seasons) when Johnson, Harvick, Biffle, Edwards, the Busch brothers, Junior, Kenseth, Kahne, and Hamlin arrived. I think EVERY ONE of those guys (except maybe Junior who I view as basically equal to Jeff Burton, and I think their careers were VERY similar actually - four great seasons at DEI/Roush followed by a couple iffy ones before leaving as a mediocrity, then having some good results but not nearly as much as was expected at Hendrick/Childress. I'd say Junior's worse but not by much) is better than Bobby Labonte and Jeff Burton, and most are every bit as good as Jarrett in my mind. I just think the problem is that there are 10-15 top drivers now unlike say 5. As for Johnson winning all the titles, I REALLY think that has more to do with Knaus's strategy of throwing away the first 26 races to focus on the last ten (which really none of the other crew chiefs were doing) than Johnson's "mental toughness", which I've always felt you and DSFF stress way too much and way too often. Note that the next crew chief to win it after Johnson's streak, Darian Grubb, worked under Knaus and probably learned from Knaus's successful strategies (he's also the reason why Denny Hamlin is going to take it to Homestead, although I don't think he'll QUITE win). Do you people REALLY think Hamlin isn't going to win a title with Darian Grubb (even if not this year)? And do you REALLY think he isn't mentally tough after he called that win at Loudon Joe Namath-style and drove from 34th to 1st in LESS THAN ONE HUNDRED LAPS (one of the best Cup performances of the last decade)? Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick I'll maybe buy haven't won titles because of their lack of mental toughness, but KURT has (and would anyone say he was mentally tough)? Carl Edwards I don't have a REALLY good explanation for... I think the drivers who peaked in the first half of the '90s were better than those peaking now, but I DEFINITELY think this era has more great drivers than the second half of the '90s, and I don't really think it's close... They haven't won titles in my opinion because Knaus (and Grubb later) were the only crew chiefs to prepare for the chase properly by just IGNORING the first 26 races. Paul Wolfe, who is even a better strategist than Knaus and Grubb are, has probably been preparing in the same way, and take a look at the crew chiefs for the only three contending cars left... I still can't take Bowyer seriously, although I do think he might be more or less this era's Sterling Marlin (whom you did list). The late '90s had a lot of legends in decline. Johnson had to beat more people at their peak than Gordon did. Gordon kind of won those titles by default. Johnson didn't, but again I think he owes that largely to Knaus being the only crew chief to properly throw away the pre-chase races... I think it's VERY telling that Darian Grubb, Knaus's #48 deputy (essentially) won the next one and is right there this year after Hamlin had maybe the worst season of his career last year. 363. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does that mean I would take Johnson over Gordon? Not necessarily. 1. Gordon has more wins, and wins > titles. 2. Gordon has had more seasons where he was the dominant driver (including some where he didn't win the title but should have - like 1996), while Johnson has had more seasons where he dominated the last 10 races but wasn't dominant in the first 26. 3. Gordon built up the Hendrick organization allowing Johnson to piggyback on his previous success (this one's BIG, and it's the same reason I'd take Mark Martin over Matt Kenseth historically even if Kenseth reaches Martin's win total, which he won't). 4. Gordon is a BIT more versatile, especially on the road courses (although the road courses are WAY more competitive now than they were in the late '90s). 5. Chad Knaus's efforts to derail the #24 team (I kind of agree with you here). Best arguments for Johnson: 1. Beating Gordon head-to-head. 2. Dominating in a deeper period (and I'm sorry - the recent period has had more title contenders than the late '90s did...just because they didn't win titles doesn't mean people like Edwards, Harvick, Kyle, and especially Hamlin weren't title contenders). 3. MAYBE, MAYBE, DSFF has a point with regard to the mental toughness versus Gordon considering the #48 was initially intended to be a support team for the #24 (kind of like Formula One where several of the teams especially Ferrari usually STRONGLY prefer the lead driver) and took over, which I kind of find hilarious. Earnhardt and Rusty never let any of their novelty teammates take over their teams, although Ryan Newman gave it a shot before we all eventually realized that he sucked. 364. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In fact, there's not been a driver enter the series in the last seven or eight years that has the total package, as the talent well had dried up" I kind of DO agree with this however. It seems like NASCAR goes through a 20-year cycle, where boom decades seem to be followed by bust decades. The 1959-1968 periods had a LOT of major talents emerging (Weatherly, Petty, Pearson, B. Allison, Yarborough, Yarbrough, Isaac, Ned Jarrett, Hutcherson, Billy Wade, etc...). The 1969-1978 period had very few new drivers of any note (Buddy Baker was already around, so Benny Parsons and DW were the only major drivers who showed up in that time, while the legends from the previous decade continued to dominate). The 1979-1988 period had a LOT of major talents emerging again (Earnhardt, T. Labonte, Gant, Rudd...yeah, he started a bit before that, Rusty, G. Bodine, Kulwicki, Irvan, Jarrett). The 1989-1998 period was AGAIN a bust. This period may have had more or less the deepest fields (since the mediocre drivers in this era were probably better than the mediocre drivers in any other), but it was the drivers from the previous decade who continued to dominate, along with Gordon. The drivers from the previous period were holding pretty much all the good rides so there are TONS of people in this period who may have had some potential but didn't have a lot of great shots. Hamilton, Craven, Nemechek, people like that... But still, this period had rookie bust after rookie bust after rookie bust. The 1999-2008 period, by contrast, had one knockout rookie after another after another. Stewart, Junior, Kenseth, Harvick, Busch brothers, Johnson, Newman, Biffle, Edwards, Kahne, Hamlin. The 2007-2008 classes didn't end up being as strong as I thought they might be, but they weren't TOO bad. Now we've entered the bust period again. The 1999-2008 rookies have all the good rides and we have some REALLY shitty rookie classes again and few prospects to be excited about (except Brad who did start after that period). Probably there's going to be some driver who emerges in about five years when most of the rookies from the 2000s are fading who is going to dominate, take over, and have inflated stats, and probably there are going to be some Jeff Burtons and Bobby Labontes who really aren't all that good but are going to capitalize on the Gen-X/early Gen-Y drivers beginning to struggle. It seems this is really a cyclical thing, but I don't think anybody's really talked about it before. When drivers stay in Cup for 20 years, basically boom decades and bust decades alternate. Right now, we're in a bust decade, so this could be GREAT for lots of drivers looking to pad their stats right now. 365. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to respond to murb's pyramid too. This isn't going to be as long as my other posts, but I'm going to say which drivers I'd move up/down (where First level of the pyramid is 1, second level is 2, etc...) Jeff Gordon - down from 1 to 2 David Pearson - up from 2 to 1 Cale Yarborough - up from 2 to 1 Tony Stewart - down from 2 to 3 Tim Richmond - up from 4 to 3 Harry Gant - up from 4 to 3 (I think they were both probably better than Mark Martin, whose sole advantages are longevity and stability) Terry Labonte - down from 3 to 4 Ernie Irvan - up from 5 to 4 Dale Jarrett - up from 5 to 4 Bobby Labonte - down from 5 to 6 Jeff Burton - down from 5 to 6 (they're NOT the best of the rest...I'd certainly take Hamlin and Edwards and probably even Kyle and Brad over them NOW) 366. Sean posted: 10.18.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ricky Rudd and Geoff Bodine also up from 5 to 4. Okay, if I do all that, then I WOULD leave B. Labonte and J. Burton at 5 along with Kenseth and a bunch of today's stars. 367. Benjamin Lowe posted: 10.18.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson Rivalry is like NASCAR's Version of Joe Montana VS Steve Young. 368. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I'll still take the drivers of the 90s at 70% over the drivers of today. And as I mentioned, there were more competitve cars from 2003-'08 than at any time in the sport's history, though the competitiveness has regressed to a great degree since then, as today the sport has the fewest number of contending cars (about 14-17) in the last 15-18 years. And I never once compared either the drivers of today or the drivers from the 90s to the early 2000s to the drivers of the mid 80s-mid 90s, because that group was more diverse as a group than possibly any group in the history of the sport. And Dale Jarrett and Mark Martin were hardly the only drivers Gordon had to race week-in and week-out. I know they were not winning at the clip the had previously, but Rusty Wallace, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., and Bill Elliott were still factors, especially in the biggest events. And let's not forget how competitve Jeff Burton was then. In fact, I thought that Burton would be the guy that would challenge Gordon in the 2000s, based on the number of great battles those two had, even moreso than Bobby Labonte. And the only legend that was in an obvious decline in the 90s was Darrell Waltrip. Earnhardt was still capable of great things, as evidenced by his 1999 and 2000 seasons, Rusty was still capable of big things, again as evidenced by his 1996 and 2000 seasons. (1997 was a lost cause for them due to mechanical failures as well as doing a lot of the R&D work for the Taurus for 1998), and Bill Elliott had problems because he owned his own team, though he didn't know how to do that as effectively as Ricky Rudd did. And Terry Labonte had his best years in the 90s. But the fact that you have so many drivers around the 20 win mark today just shows that there are many good drivers today, but not very many great ones. For instance, there are only currently three full-time drivers with 30 or more wins, but about 10 others with between 18 and 24, all but two of which are current day drivers. And as for Denny Hamlin calling his shot at Loudon, anyone who watched the July race there knew it was obvious who had the best car in that race. It was Hamlin by a landslide, so anyone could have predicted that Hamlin would win in the series' return to Loudon. But I don't think Hamlin will win a title with Darian Grubb for the same reason Brad Keselowski probably won't win it this year, and that is that their crew chiefs take too many gambles, and remember that a decision gone wrong will cost you much more than a gamble gone right will help you, because of the current point system. Keselowski lost 11 points/positions to both Johnson and Hamlin at Charlotte as a result of their fuel gamble gone wrong, and with Martinsville coming up, that's going to cost the #2 team. Bet on it. 369. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wrote on Brad's page that if he loses this championship, it'll be because he ran out of gas on the backstretch during a normal pit cycle. It reminded me of when Gordon ran out at Sonoma this year, which cost him any shot at the win, because Gustafson kept him out one lap too long trying to stretch their final green flag run. I can't stand it when teams try to stretch their fuel when they have to make another pit stop anyways, so there's really no gain in staying out. If anything, it hurts them even if they do stretch it because they're just losing time to the cars with fresh tires. By making that pointless decision, Brad went from 14 points ahead of 2nd place, to 15 points in front of 3rd place. With Kansas reconfiguration being a mystery, and the next two tracks strongly favoring Jimmie and Denny, Brad and Paul really put themselves in a hole with that bad decision. 370. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Gordon's best 5 year stretch was mind boggling as far as wins. But those should have translated into better championship performances. One epic season start to finish with a points blowout ('98), two seasons of mind bending dominance that saw him blow huge late points leads only to be saved by the bell ('95, '97), one flat out choke ('96), and one Kyle Busch Memorial season ('99, 7 wins, 6th in points, doesn't that sound like a Kyle Busch season?). JJ, by contrast, won the title every year of his 5 year peak ('06-'10) including the final one where he won an "outclassed" title (something Jeff has never done). And again, I don't wanna hear any chase garbage. I hate that format, but as always, if we are going to acknowledge Richard Petty's 1974 championship, then all chase champs are equal. Yes, Richard was the best driver in '74, butthe fact is he won the title because he won the Daytona 500 and showed up to the rest of the races. Due to that system, that is why he won it. They just got lucky as hell the right guy won the right race. Also, as for Jeff's peak of 3 titles in 5 years, Dale also did that..... TWICE! ('86-'90 and '91-'95). Ok, so that took some creative number manipulating (Jeff actually won 3 in 4 years, while Dale won 4 in 5 years and 6 of 9) but the point still stands. Besides, at point do we mention that, in a 20 year career, Jeff got over half his wins in a 5 year stretch. It shouldn't count too much against him cause he has still has put up HOF worthy numbers from 2000 to present, but his career is like Ryan Newman's on steroids, HGH, supplements, protein shakes, Flinstone Vitamins, and whatever the hell Allmendinger took. With '95-'99 being Newman's '03. 371. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the current era of NASCAR features a lot more horsepower and downforce tracks than the late-'90s era. Back then they had Michigan (which had been around for 30 years), Charlotte (to a lesser extent as it was pre-repave), and they had just opened up tracks at Fontana, Texas, and Las Vegas. Now, they have two Texas dates, two Kansas dates, Chicago, Kentucky (don't be surprised if that track gets a 2nd date), a reconfigured Las Vegas that made it more like Kansas and less unique, and a repaved Charlotte. Not only that, but there were more "driver" tracks back then too, like two Rockingham dates, North Wilkesboro (at which Gordon won the final race; in fact, Gordon has won at both of these tracks that aren't on the Cup circuit), two Darlington races (both of which were in the hot South Carolina summers), Bristol (back before Bruton Smith ruined it), and two Atlanta dates. Plus, other tracks that aren't considered "driver tracks" like IMS and Dover weren't as one-sided because with the old car bodies, aerodynamics weren't as important as horsepower and durability. So not only was the level of competition standpoint better (as far as drivers go, not equipment), but the tracks required more skill than they do now. And with a better points system and no Chase, drivers back in the "Gordon Era" were racing for the full season, not just for the final 10 races, and were able to take chances because pointed were more stacked in the top 10 than everywhere else. 372. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Todays drivers i'd take if i had a team: Tony Stewert Jimmie Johnson (minus Chad Knaus) Jeff Gordon Clint Bowyer Denny Hamlin Greg Biffle Brad K. Matt Kenseth Yes i'd have an 8 car team but i'd any of those guys over todays drivers in a heart beat. 373. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and one Kyle Busch Memorial season ('99, 7 wins, 6th in points, doesn't that sound like a Kyle Busch season?)." Not really because Jeff never led the points after his Daytona 500 win, while Kyle led the points for 20 of the first 26 races in 2008 (his only season with at least 7 wins) and completely choked in the Chase. Jeff's '99 season was more like Rusty's '00 season because they both won a lot, but took themselves out of contention with too many bad finishes. 374. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and one Kyle Busch Memorial season ('99, 7 wins, 6th in points, doesn't that sound like a Kyle Busch season?)." On paper it kind of does. But if you look into the specifics and see how much more dominant Kyle was in the '08 regular season than Jeff was in '99, and see how they finished, at least Jeff was fairly consistent in the points. The whole season he was about a 4th to 7th place driver in points because while he won a lot, he had even more bad finishes. With Kyle (again, using 2008 as an example), he was the best driver the entire regular season, but he came unglued in the Chase and finished 10th. In a way, Kyle's '08 season is a lot like Michael Waltrip's '03 season. They each won more often and were higher in the points than people predicted, but when it came down to the final 10-12 races, they came unglued and finished MUCH lower than we would have thought. But in Kyle's defense, he at least has a points reset as his alibi. Can't say the same for Michael. 375. cjs3872 posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, in addition to the fact that, not only was there a better points system and no Chase when Gordon dominated, but there was also no free pass or wave around back then to let drivers have free laps back, either. That actually made it much tougher to come from behind, both to win races and championships. That meant that the drivers actually had to work harder to keep themselves in contention, which is yet another reason why I consider the drivers of the 90s much tougher competitors. And there weren't quite as many phantom cautions to tighten the field up. Sure there were some, but not as many as there are now. As a result, everyone had to actually earn what they got. And as for DSFF's assertion that Gordon got more than half of his wins in a five-year period, that's also true of Darrell Waltrip and Cale Yarborough. They also got half of their wins, or more, in a condensed period of time. Yarborough's period of such dominance was from 1976-'80 and Waltrip's was from 1979-'84. And also remember that three of four of Gordon's Dover wins were in successive 500-mile races in 1995-'96, and his first win at Rockingham was in that track's final 500-mile race in 1995. Gordon is one of three drivers to win on both Atlanta layouts, and won two races, one at Bristol and the Southern 500 at Darlington four consecutive times. So not only were there more drivers tracks back when Gordon was the top dog, some were run at a longer distance than are run now. And Gordon's sixth Pocono win this year out him in the record books at the tricky triangle. 376. Paul posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Kyle Busch, he crashed his Nationwide car during Nationwide practice today at Kansas today. This makes two Cup drivers who crashed today at the reconfigured Kansas. Might we see more of this as the weekend progresses? 377. 18fan posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You guys love to place all the blame on Kyle for the Chase in 2008 without looking at the facts. Broken sway bar at Loudon, engine failure at Dover, some problem that I forget what it was but it was some mechanical problem, and was caught up in the Carl Edwards-caused big one at Talladega. That was the first 4 races of the chase that year and he was 331 points out of the lead through no fault of his own. And he couldn't really recover because they peaked too early (like Steve Addington teams seem to always do) but still ran top 5 at Charlotte and Atlanta and was the 2nd best car at Texas behind Carl Edwards before pit strategy took over and nobody could pass anybody, not even Carl who was extremely dominant all race long (Carl ended up winning that race on fuel mileage). Besides melting a bead at Martinsville (which is more on the driver than on the car), Kyle had 5 top 10 runs in the last 6 races (he finished 19th at Homestead after running 6th for the last 100 miles before that race came down to fuel mileage). 378. murb posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said, Jimmie is great. But if I wanted a driver that would deliver race winning/championship contending season after race winning/championship contending season over the course of 20 years, and hardly lose a step, I would choose Jeff hands down. I just don't think that ten years from now Jimmie will be in the spot that Jeff currently is in (20 year vet that is still one of the five best in the sport). Sean, I think your version of "the pyramid" looks reasonable too. To me, it is just a much better and easier way of ranking drivers. Hopefully Parker Kligerman will get a top quality NNS ride next year. He clearly deserves it. I would bet on a Turner Motorsports seat. It seems like he's out at Penske (and I also don't expect Hornish to leave). And as for RCR, I'd like to think he could get the 2 car. But we know how Richard is now. Anyone who doesn't have the last name Dillon is on the backburner. And hopefully Denny is okay after the testing wreck. I would hate to see him taken out of the championship by having a wreck during testing. 379. David posted: 10.18.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eldora's Prelude to the Dream won't run in 2013. Hmmm... 380. Talon64 posted: 10.18.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like I said, Jimmie is great. But if I wanted a driver that would deliver race winning/championship contending season after race winning/championship contending season over the course of 20 years, and hardly lose a step, I would choose Jeff hands down. I just don't think that ten years from now Jimmie will be in the spot that Jeff currently is in (20 year vet that is still one of the five best in the sport)." That's not hard to say when Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon are the only three drivers who've really accomplished that. That being said, Jimmie Johnson's in his 11th straight season of doing that so he's already on the shorter end of achieving it. And Tony Stewart's on 14 years! 381. murb posted: 10.18.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's not hard to say when Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon are the only three drivers who've really accomplished that." It's why I have those three in the top level of my pyramid list. I just think that longevity is a huge quality. For example, look at a guy like Terry Labonte. He had success, but certainly not of the caliber as Petty, Earnhardt, and Gordon. But he is still remembered as one of the greatest of all time, and I think a large reason why was because of his longevity. So when you couple this longevity along with consistently being a major threat every year, it is even more impressive. Like I said, that's why Petty, Earnhardt, and Gordon are on my "top three" list. No Prelude next year? Hmm indeed, David. If Darrell Waltrip were here, he would be talking about those black helicopters he always sees. Maybe a Truck race at Eldora isn't as far fetched as we think. 382. David posted: 10.18.2012 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my pyramid of greatest drivers (which I think is an excellent system, because it gets gradually harder to rank drivers when you get farther down the list): Richard Petty Dale Earnhardt - David Pearson Jeff Gordon - Bobby Allison - Cale Yarborough Jimmie Johnson - Lee Petty - Darrell Waltrip - Tony Stewart Rusty Wallace - Bill Elliott - Terry Labonte - Mark Martin - Joe Weatherly I made it a true pyramid, which may make it not as good as some others. I'll probably end up revising this. 383. Baker posted: 10.18.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was so pumped to get on here tonight and read what everyone though of NASCAR going back to dirt! And then I saw nothing :( Anyone think a truck race could eventually lead to the top dogs going back for at least 1 race? I go to half dozen to a dozen races at Eldora every year and I do not feel that the track is up to snuff for NASCAR yet. If they do get trucks, however, then I am more than positive Tony Stewart and the Eldora officials will work hard at getting more seating and better facilities. Traffic could be a problem, however, as it is in the middle of no where and a good 20-30 min from the nearest interstate. I'm so pumped!! I hope it happens!!! 384. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.18.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So if it was harder to come from behind to win a title in the late 90's (meaning it is easier to hold a big lead) then what the hell happened in '95, '96, and '97? And again, it isn't just that Dale has 7, JJ has 5, and Jeff has 4, it is the fact that Dale won his first one for an organization that only existed for 3 and 1/2 years, and 6 for an organization that has only shown the slightest glimmers of championship hopes rarely over the past 12 years without him. Meanwhile, HMS has 10 championships and 205 wins. Jeff has 4 of those 10. He isn't even the best HMS driver ever. JJ > Gordon. 385. 18fan posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Osterlund team actually was already a solid team before Dale was hired. Dale took it to the next level. Dave Marcis tied for the series lead in top 10 finishes in 1978, but Osterlund wanted someone who took more risks and ran up front more, and he certainly got the right guy for that. The Osterlund team was actually the old #71 K&K Insurance team of Nord Krauskopf that Bobby Isaac won the title with in 1970. He sold it to Jim Stacy, who then sold the team to Osterlund. Stacy then reacquired the team when Osterlund bailed. At least that's the way I interpreted the way that team changed hands: Krauskopf-Stacy-Osterlund-Stacy. 386. cjs3872 posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, what happened in 1995 and '96 were blown engines in the fall race at Charlotte. Then the #24 team got real conservative in the last three races, but held a big enough point lead that it really didn't matter what happened at Atlanta. Even with the blown engine at charlotte and conservative runs at Rockinghma and Phownix, their lead going into the Atlanta finale in 1995 was 147 points, meaning that Gordon only had to beat one car, so he had that title won. Remember that Earnhardt gained a lot of that ground in a meaningless Atlanta finale for Gordon and co. In 1996, Gordon led going into the fall race at Charlotte by 111 points, but blew an engine in that race for the second consecutive year. Even worse for Gordon was the fact that Terry Labonte, his closest pursuer, won the race and scored maximum points, cutting Gordon's lead to one point, so there was no lead at all to protect in the final two races. In 1997, #24 team again got conservative, but also had a problem with an axle at Rockingham, if I remember right. They got it fixed and wound up going to a newly repaved and reconfigured track at Atlanta, and they had just a terrible weekend, but had enough of a lead to still beat Dale Jarrett and Mark Martin for the championship. But in 1995 and '97, the #24 team could have done much better and ran much harder in the final month if they had to, but they knew that if they were conservative, especially after the blown engines thy kept suffering at Charlotte, trhey could coast home to the title. And actually, being overly cautious was the worst thing they could have done, because it got them off their game, and they swore in 1998 that they wouldn't make that mistake, and they won three of the final four races that year. Their problem wasn't choking as much as it was being too conservative. In 1996, they were just outran when it counted, and I don't fault the #24 team for losing that championship, because they didn't lose it. Terry Labonte and the #5 team just went out and took it. And since Terry didn't win that many marquee races, I say that winning the 1996 title was Terry Labonte's greatest moment in his NASCAR career. They did the same thing in 2001, as far as being conservative goes, and this time it worked just as they planned it, because their point lead was never truly threatened. If not for the blown engines at Charlotte in 1995 and '96, I believe Gordon would have won four consecutive championships, and probably wouldn't have struggled at the end of the '97 season, as well, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. And one thing about Jimmie Johnson and his Chase championships. Everyone talks about how competitive every Chase field is when it starts. But the plain truth is that, even though 12 drivers make the Chase, there are usually only three or four that have a real shot at the title going in, unless the favorites all have problems, and the inaugural Chase in 2004 is the only time that's happened, because that's the only year that a true darkhorse won the title. And no, I do not consider Stewart's run to the title last year as a darkhorse title, because Stewart was showing signs of coming on, though nobody could ever have foreseen him, or anyone else winning five races in the Chase. 387. cjs3872 posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No 18fan, the Osterlund team was actually Roger Penske's first NASCAR team when he ran the AMC Matadors for drivers such as Mark Donohue, Gary Bettenhausen, Dave Marcis, and Bobby Allison. What happened was that Penske was running the #2 Mercurys for Dave Marcis in 1977 after he left Nord Krauskopf after the 1976 season. But Penske was getting spread too thin and decided to sell his team. But Osterlund wanted to run GM cars, so Penske sold his cars and equipment to George Elliott for 1978, but sold his team to Osterlund, and both Dave Marcis and the #2 itself went with the sale of the team. Krauskopf sold his team to Jim Stacy at about that same time, and Stacy changed the car number from 71 to 5 for driver Neil Bonnett. But Stacy ran into financial problems and merged his team with Osterlund's late in 1978, but the two entities split at the beginning of the 1979 season, with Earnhardt replacing Marcis in Osterlund's #2 car, with Stacy running his #5 in the 1979 Daytona 500 with Bonnett. But when the Wood Brotheers ride opened up after the spring race at Darlington that year, Stacy left and didn't return until trying to qualify for the 1980 Daytona 500 with Tom Sneva. But apparently tiring of the sport after having won the championship in only his third year as a car owner, much as was the case with IndyCar owner John Mecom more than a decade earlier, Osterlund decided to sell the team to Jim Stacy, who didn't want Earnhardt as his driver. Then in 1982, Stacy decided to run a second car, bringing the #5 he had back, and Stacy's history with Harry Hyde is how the #5 became the flagship for Hendrick Motorsports. But Stacy again ran ino trouble in 1983, and sold his team to his crew chief, Robert Harrington, whch is when it was finally put to bed for good. Osterlund returned in 1989, but had no success at all with drivers Hut Stricklin, Jimmy Spencer, and Buddy Baker driving for him, and he left for good in 1991. But Osterlund's first team was actually Roger Penske's first team, not Nord Krauskopf's old K&K Insurance team with which Bobby Isaac became one of the 20-25 best drivers in history. 388. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 3:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The right man won the '96 championship. While Gordon had more wins (10 to 2) and led over twice as many laps as Terry, and they each had the same number of top fives (21) and top tens (24), it was Terry finishing strong week in and week out that won him the championship. In six of Jeff's seven non-top ten finishes, he finished 31st or worse, including 5 DNFs (he finished the Charlotte race). Terry on the other hand only finished worse than 16th six times and finished higher than Jeff in 16 of the 31 races (majority win). Plus Jeff only led the points for five weeks throughout the season and never regained it following his Charlotte issues, and it took him until the 22nd race before he was ranked in the top 2 in points for consecutive weeks. After being 43rd in the points after two races and having so many bad finishes, it's amazing that Jeff was in the title picture at all. Terry had just one finish worse than 26th and it was a 34th at Rockingham after leading 198 of the first 235 laps. Jeff had SIX finishes worse than 36th, including two finishes of 40th or worse to start the season. Jeff didn't choke, he simply had more bad finishes than Terry did and that's what cost him the title. Their title bout in '96 was very reminiscent of the '93 championship battle between Dale and Rusty. Like Terry and Jeff, Rusty had more wins than Dale (10 to 6) had similar top fives (19 to 17) equal top tens (21, which is how many top fives Terry and Jeff had) and Rusty led twice as many laps as Dale did. The difference being that Rusty lacked consistency in the early part of the season, having five finishes of 21st or worse, including four straight, in the first 13 races. He went from leading the points to falling back to 5th. Meanwhile, Dale only had one finish worse than 16th in that span and it was a 22nd at Martinsville after suffering an engine failure with 47 laps to go. From there, Rusty finished the year with 13 top sixes in the final 17 races and finished 80 points behind Dale. So while the endings of the '93 and '96 seasons were different, they were very similar. Both times the final championship contenders have similar top fives and top tens, both times the runner-up had 10 wins and led twice as many laps as the champion, and both times the runner-up had too many bad finishes that cost them the title. I think there are two reasons why some look at Jeff's '96 title defeat as a choke and not "just getting beat" like Rusty's '93 title defeat. One reason is because most of Rusty's misfortunes happened early in the season, which prevented him from being a serious title contender aside from seeing Earnhardt's point lead shrink with each passing week (he had three finishes of 27th or worse in the second half of the season, and still won by 80 points against a guy with 13 top fives in that same span). Jeff's on the other hand occurred throughout the season. His finishes of 31st or worse came in races 1, 2, 9, 16, 19, 28. Had his bad finishes occurred much earlier in the season like Rusty's did, we wouldn't regard Jeff as "choking" the '96 title. He wouldn't have led the points near the end of the season, but at least he wouldn't have "choked" like some people say he did. And the other reason has to do with who they lost to. In one corner, we have the man who beat Rusty in '93: Dale Earnhardt, a 7-time champion (6 at the time), winner of 76 races (59 at the time), and viewed as the alpha male in NASCAR from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s (and maybe 'til the day he died, even though he wasn't as competitive in that period). In the other corner, we have the man who beat Jeff in '96: Terry Labonte, a 2-time champion and winner of only 22 races (18 at the time), and viewed as one of the most conservative drivers of the Earnhardt Era and the Gordon Era (and maybe of all-time). I could be wrong, but I think some drivers get a pass because they lost to a superior driver than others. Rusty has bad finishes at the beginning of the year and loses to Dale Earnhardt, and it's not a choke. Jeff has bad finishes at the beginning, middle, and end of the year and loses to Terry Labonte, and it's a choke. Had Rusty had his bad finishes at the end of the season "when it mattered" and/or lost to a guy like Terry Labonte, we'd probably look at him differently too. Also, the reason why Jimmie Johnson closes out seasons better than Jeff is because Jimmie and the rest of the field DON'T RACE FOR THE WHOLE SEASON. The first 26 races don't matter as long as you're in the top 10 in points or are a wildcard. Therefore, a driver only has to race well enough (perhaps conservatively) in the first 26 races, then can race for wins for the final 10 races because at that point, the points have been reset and you have to beat the other 11 Chase drivers to win the championship. They can't just "coast" to the finish like Jeff did in '95, '97, and '01, and "tried but failed to do" in '96 (even though he only led the points FIVE races and wasn't a contender until the final ten races, therefore giving him no incentive to race conservatively, which is what cost him the title, along with his many bad finishes). That's why Jimmie's dominance is often questioned because he never had to be the best driver for all 36 races; he only had to for the final 10. While that method has won him five championships, only twice did he score the most overall points; twice losing to "wannabe champions" (Edwards and Harvick), and the other time losing to, yep you guessed it, Jeff Gordon. Think of Jeff's '96 season as what you shouldn't do in the Chase. You shouldn't race conservatively for the final 10 races when you're so close in points to the driver(s) right behind you. That's what cost him the '96 title, and has prevented drivers from even contending for the Chase title in the past because with a points reset, there's no room for error in the final 10 races, even if that error is finishing 14th because you took no chances. A lot of the blame for conservative driving for the first 26 races has to do with the points reset and "elementary" points system, but the fact that Jimmie has never led the points going into the Chase makes his reign look questionable. Heck, in 2007, the year he won 10 races (including 4 in a row), he scored 353 less points than Jeff Gordon. So Jeff could have literally parked the car for two races, and Jimmie still would have lost the title that year. I'll give you four of his championships, but the fact that he finished 2007 over two races behind the overall points leader makes him look like a paper champion. 389. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.19.2012 - 8:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Although they bought Penske's equipment, the Osterlund team itself was a bunch of California late model racing teenagers and managed by two people who knew practically nothing about NASCAR (Osterlund and Ronald Wlodyka). Hell, Dale himself knew little about NASCAR at the time.vyet he still won the title in 1980 by sheer talent and force of will. 390. cjs3872 posted: 10.19.2012 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Osterlund did not buy Penske's equipment, because Osterlund watned to run Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets. That's why Penske sold his Mercurys to George Elliott, because they just wanted to race, no matter what brand of car it was, so Penske sold his equipment to George Elliott, while selling off the team itself to Osterlund. And Paul, I disagree that Gordon raced conservatively in 1996. He couldn't afford to, especially after Charlotte. After that race, he and Terry Labonte were, for all intents and purposes, dead even in the championship. Labonte simply outran Gordon when it counted, at Rockingham and Phoenix (with a broken hand at Phoenix, no less), then did only what he had to do at Atlanta, and no more. And let's not forget that many people, myself included, think that Rusty would have won the 1993 title if not for the injuries he sustained at Talladega at the end of the Winston 500. Remember that he suffered a broken wrist in that crash, and as a result, he made some errors he would never have made otherwise, and the pints he lost as a result were far more than the 80 he lost the championship by that year. He made errors at Sonoma and Dover that I estimate cost him about a full race worth of points, which was about double what he lost the championship by. 391. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's why Jimmie's dominance is often questioned because he never had to be the best driver for all 36 races; he only had to for the final 10. While that method has won him five championships, only twice did he score the most overall points; twice losing to "wannabe champions" (Edwards and Harvick), and the other time losing to, yep you guessed it, Jeff Gordon." Why should it be questioned? The only "questionable" thing about Jimmies success is weither or not how "honestly" they did it (blame the Chad Knaus factor). And why are you bring up a system NASCAR doesn't even use anymore? We have the Chase, it is what is used, quit bringing up the old system. It isn't around anymore. It isn't NASCARs fault that no one can beat Jimmie during his 5 year run, blame the the rest of the so called "drivers." Since people give Richard Petty credit for his 1974 Championship (Win the 500 and just show up for the rest of the races, YOU WIN!!!!!!!) Might as well give credit for Jimmie 5 Cup titles or is that too hard too do? I don't like Jimmie and i don't like the Chase but A) It is what is used, the cream still raises to the top (Jimmie Johnson) B) Give Jimmie credit for what he has done. He has been the mentally strongest, toughest and best for 5 years. So no was and could not beat them. Might as well give credit right? C) Only thing that holds back the legacy of the #48 is Chad Knaus. Due to his huge ego and well "unwillingness" to stay within the rules. Far as i see it, 2006 and 2007 do not (and shouldn't) count because they got busted for cheating. I'll give them the rest but not 2006 or 2007. I find cheating to be a more major hinderence to your overall legacy then winning with the Chase format. 392. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, that is precisely my point. Both Gordon in '96 and Rusty in '93 had too many bad finishes that knocked them out of championship contention early, but managed to fight back and finish a (relatively) close 2nd. But I think people view Gordon as choking away the '96 title because he was so close at the end of the season. He really didn't deserve to win the title that year because not only did he have too many bad finishes, but he was never a title contender until very late in the season. I really think Terry won the title simply because he had fewer bad finishes, much the same way Dale did in '93. I'm not saying Dale was racing conservatively (until the last race when he made sure not to make a mistake until about 10 cars fell out of the race, clinching him the championship), but by circumstances, he had fewer bad finishes throughout the course of the season and was rewarded the championship more for his consistency than his domination. And also, you yourself said that the #24 team got too conservative after the Charlotte race, resulting in them leading few laps and losing 38 points to Terry Labonte over the final three races. Maybe Gordon himself didn't drive too conservatively, but the fact is is that the #5 team finished the season on a much higher note than the #24 team. With Gordon losing 110 points to Terry and having only a 1-point lead, he couldn't afford to make a mistake, which may have resulted in his team being too cautious at Rockingham, losing a lap early as a result and losing 33 points to Labonte because he was a lap down and couldn't finish higher than 12th. And with Labonte averaging a 3rd place finish over the final six races, Gordon couldn't afford a bad run, and unfortunately they had two in a row that resulted in a loss of 143 points (almost the difference between 1st and last) and lost the championship. 393. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru, your entire post reflects how I feel. Chad holds JJ back historically, not these goofy new Brian France rules. Everybody is playing under the same rules, and everyone knows how the champ will be determined. 394. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru, I'm not saying that Jimmie didn't earn those five titles. He did earn them because he and his team played the system perfectly, which is start off strong and put yourself in the Chase well before it starts, start preparing for the Chase by using some of the meaningless races as testing grounds for the Chase (such as using Kentucky as a test for Kansas), and accumulate as many wins as you can so they can be transferred into bonus points. By the time the Chase starts, his team may be the most prepared team because they had spent the previous months getting ready for it while most of the other teams were either fighting for a Chase spot (Gordon, Kahne) or were too focused on getting up to speed (Harvick, Truex) and were basically beat before the Chase even started (although Gordon did have great momentum going in until the "speed" tracks came on the schedule). I just think that while Jimmie has five championships, it shouldn't be forgotten that he was the overall points leader for only two of those championships. It's impossible to know whether he would have won some of those titles using the Latford system because we don't know how that team would have raced if all 36 races mattered, or if they would have experienced some bad luck along the way, but the fact that three of his titles came as a result of the points reset shouldn't be swept under the rug and forgotten. "And why are you bring up a system NASCAR doesn't even use anymore? We have the Chase, it is what is used, quit bringing up the old system. It isn't around anymore." Says the person who constantly harps on "the peanut gallery" for influencing NASCAR's rule changes, using the manufactured pack racing as an example. Once again, he won his five titles fair and square, but three of which due to a points reset (once again, we don't know for sure whether he would have won the title in '04, '08, or '10 or not; he wouldn't have won it in '07 if not for the reset). And since when is it wrong to criticize NASCAR's points system? Everyone criticizes the legitimacy of Richard Petty's '74 championship because the points system focused more on winnings than it did finishes, yet it's not okay to criticize Jimmie's '07, '08, and '10 titles because "that's the system that's being used". I guess if we were still using the '74 points system (or any points system prior to 1975 for that matter), people would be saying "that's the system, get over it" then too. No points system is perfect, but rewarding championships based solely on a driver's performance over the final 10 races I think de-legitimizes them to an extent. "Win the 500 and just show up for the rest of the races, YOU WIN!!!!!!!" Richard Petty also won 10 races, led the series in top tens (23), led over 3,000 laps, and had an average finish of 6.8. Even though the points system was terrible back then, his stats show that he was a deserving champion. 395. Sean posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Terry Labonte's average finish in his 7 bad races: 24.1 Jeff Gordon's average finish in his 7 bad races: 32.7 Is that REALLY enough to be emphasized over 8 more wins and 1400 more laps led? NO. NASCAR awards the middle positions FAR too much, and I'm surprised how many people defend NASCAR's way-too-consistency-driven points systems (and then whine about people like Kevin Harvick points racing). The more people defend Terry's '96, the more I start thinking that the BIGGEST problem with all of NASCAR's points systems over the years is that positions in the back half of the field are given too many points (relative to other points systems), which I'm starting to think is even worse than the frontrunners not getting enough. If Terry had had 21 top 5s and 24 top 10s, and Gordon had had 12 top 5s and 15 top 10s or something, fine. If all of Terry's non-top 10 finishes were 11ths, it would bother me less, but it would still bother me. But Terry is being rewarded for having 6 bad finishes over Jeff's 6 REALLY bad finishes, and that's not right. No legitimate points system would give Terry that title. Honestly, Gordon deserved to lose in '97 more than '96, since Jarrett was more dominant than Gordon (and way more than Terry in '96) and Gordon was worse in '97 than in '96. However, I still think Gordon had the better year. I like Terry Labonte and I don't like Jeff Gordon but Gordon was robbed. I don't see why so many people defend the 1975-2003 system like it was manna from heaven or something. It was certainly better than having the same SORT of system with a chase, yes. But those of us who were complaining about that points system didn't want this "fix". 396. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't see why so many people defend the 1975-2003 system like it was manna from heaven or something. It was certainly better than having the same SORT of system with a chase, yes." I think the Chase is just a gimmick used to keep fans interested in NASCAR during football season. The difference though is that in the NFL (and other sports with playoff systems), the playing field isn't leveled. They just take the 12 best teams and have them play against each other and the best team wins. You can't have a playoff system in NASCAR because everyone competes against each other and everyone gets points. I think the points reset is the biggest problem with the Chase because it makes what a driver accomplished in the regular season, aside from wins, meaningless. 397. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.19.2012 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My point about the 1974 system is that, if we aren't gonna totally ignore that one, then we can't ignore ANY titles under any system. And as I have said numerous times, the right guy won the 1974 Winston Cup. The King had yet another mind boggling season and was his usual brilliant self. BUT......... The fact is he didn't win the '74 Winston Cup for having a kick ass overall season. He won cause he won the Daytona 500. He pretty much only had to show up to the rest of the races. Because he was so damn good and had professional pride, the determination to win every week regardless if he had the title locked up or was totally out of the points, he did a hell of a lot more than just show up to the rest of the races. But as for the championship, that didn't matter. So we can't knock the legitimacy of any cha$e champs. Even Kurt Busch. 398. David posted: 10.19.2012 - 2:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just tossing this in there, just about EVERYBODY knew the actual points system in 1974 (I think), but I'm pretty sure nobody knew that the Daytona 500 would decide the title. So that was a rare case of the competitors not knowing how the title would be decided. Did I phrase that wrong? 399. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nur Ali does not belong in a NASCAR race car. A lot of drivers have complained that he can't hold his line, and he just swerved into Erik Darnell in the MIDDLE of the corner. I'd take my chances with JWT before I hired him him, that was just awful. 400. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.19.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think anybody, including NASCAR, knew how the points system worked in '74. At the end of the season NASCAR realized what a mess they had and said "Well shit, we screwed up, Richard had the best season and would win the championship under any system, give him the Winston Cup". That off season they consulted a guy named Bob Latford and the rest his history. And btw, The King made a mockery of that system too, winning 13 of 30 races, and despite a bad start to the year wound up with a record that still stands for biggest points blowout ever. And let the record show Richard won his 7 championships under FIVE different points systems. The lesson, as always, the cream rises to the top. And make no mistake, from '64-'75 he was a man among boys with the exception of David Pearson who was Richard's secret ingredient for his mind boggling success. Because of Pearson, Richard had to push himself harder and reach back even further (and vice versa) to be the best. Two legends who pushed each other to the Mount Rushmore of stock car drivers because they couldn't coast (mentally or physically) with the other around. Petty and Pearson is the greatest rivalry ever. Anyone who disagrees is wrong. 401. 18fan posted: 10.19.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All of the stuff we're talking about shows that you really can't compare championships that were won in different eras because it took different strengths to win them. You had points standings that used crazy algorithms involving money won, laps and/or miles completed, and other things to determine the champion. Then you have the aforementioned 1974 points system. I would also argue that what it takes to win the championship now is different than what it took in 2004-2010 with the chase because of a different points system. The only proper comparisons you can make is between drivers who raced in the same era. To me comparing Jeff's titles to Jimmie's titles doesn't really work. In Gordon's championships it was based on the whole season while Jimmie's were based on the last 10 races. What it takes to win a championship decided over 30+ races (Gordon's championship years had 31, 32, 33, and 36 races respectively) is completely different than what it takes to win the championship over 10 races. I think to determine "the best driver in NASCAR history", you have to break down the history of the sport into eras and then decide who was the best driver from that era. Then you can start comparing the strength of each particular era (like how 1997-2000 was weaker than 1990-1996) and then the dominance of certain drivers might not look as good. 402. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 10.19.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Once again, he won his five titles fair and square, but three of which due to a points reset (once again, we don't know for sure whether he would have won the title in '04, '08, or '10 or not; he wouldn't have won it in '07 if not for the reset)." 2010 he shouldn't have really won, he was on the ropes with 2 races left and Hamlin/Ford choked it away. 2010 was the #48s weakest year by far, AFTER they basically demolished the field in 2009 (which was their strongest year, start to finish). If Sam didn't wreck him, he seals with one race left. "And since when is it wrong to criticize NASCAR's points system?" Since NASCAR started using points systems and it got old really, really quick? 403. cjs3872 posted: 10.19.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Paul, the #24 team did not get conservative after the fall race at Charlotte in 1996. They couldn't afford to, because their lead got cut to one point because they blew an engine and Terry Labonte won that race. They had to run the last three races all-out, and Terry Labonte flat beat them, even driving the last two races with a broken wrist from a practice crash at Phoenix, which underscores just how tough the drivers of Labonte's gerenration were. They were conservative in 1995 and '97, and it almost got them beat in '97 (they were never in any danger of losing it in '95). And also, Gordon became a championship contender in 1996 in June when Dale Earnhardt, who had a solid point lead at the time, had an uncharacteristic engine failure at Pocono. That's what put Gordon (who won that race) and Labonte in the points race with Earnhardt and Dale Jarrett, who was also there the entire season. And Sean, while I agree somewhat that Gordon may have been robbed be the points system in '96, the fact is that his team did it to themselves. With a 111-point lead, all they had to do was to finish the race in the top 15 at Charlotte, but instead pushed too hard and suffered an engine faliure at the most inopportune time. Then they missed the set-up early at Rockingham and lost a lap early that they never made up (they would have easily made it up under today's rules), and made a major pit road blunder at Atlanta that cost them two laps early in that race (a fact almost forgotten), though they did make those up. And I don't know how you could possibly say that a driver that wins the three most historically significant races, including an unprecedented third consecutive Southern 500 to win the Winston Million(only the second driver to do so after Bill Elliott in 1985) and win the sport's Triple Crown (something that had not happened since 1976) was not the season's most dominant driver in 1997, because Jeff Gordon did all that in 1997. But his team made the mistake of sitting on their big point lead, and had problems in two of the last three races. They had a problem with something leaking from their rear axle at Rockingham and had a disastrous weekend at Atlanta in the finale, crashing their primary car and struggling with their back-up car, but their point lead was big enough to hold off a charging Dale Jarrett amd Mark Martin. 404. Paul posted: 10.19.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, my mistake. I took that "conservative" line from what you said in post #386. It turns out that you were talking about his conservative run to end the '95 season, not '96 as I said a couple times. You mentioned both '95 and '96 in that same paragraph, and I misread what you wrote, thinking you were referring to his '96 season. That makes more sense. Sorry for the past few posts when I said Gordon/the #24 team got conservative to end '96. Disregard what I said about him racing racing conservatively in posts #388 and #392. 405. Sean posted: 10.19.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In terms of dominance, I mean dominating the races without regard to where the races were held. Jarrett led 2085 laps (an average of 19.27% per race) to Gordon's 1648 laps (an average of 15.35% per race). Gordon only led the most laps in 4 races; Jarrett led the most laps in 7. Yes, I know the Fords had faster cars in general in that period, but Jarrett was the most dominant driver. I did write, "However, I still think Gordon had the better year.", and it's mainly because I think Gordon's number of wins and diversity of wins was enough to compensate for Jarrett being more dominant in the races. But Martin led the most laps at Daytona, Irvan did at Charlotte, and Elliott did at Darlington. I wouldn't say Gordon "dominated" any of those races, even if he won them. The dominant driver should be the driver who is DOMINATING the races more than who is winning them. Jeff Gordon won 13 races in 1998 and only 7 in 1995, but his 1995 was more dominant in terms of actually leading. In '98, he tended to win the races because he got out of the pits first and nobody could pass anyone. I do think Gordon deserved it in 1997 and had a slightly stronger season than Jarrett. But I think Jarrett's greater dominance (regardless of where the races took place - you're the only one who cares here about marquee race wins so much) would have made him a far more deserving champion than T. Labonte in 1996, who didn't deserve it at all. 406. Sean posted: 10.19.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell, speaking of Jarrett, anyone remember the Watkins Glen race where he was running about 11th with ten laps or less remaining and was black-flagged for leaking oil when he wasn't? That put him back in about 30th and that penalty cost him that title as much as (or more than) Mark Martin's Richmond penalty did in 1990. Nobody talks about that horrible call at Watkins Glen, but everybody talks about Martin's Richmond call (which was probably a more valid penalty than Jarrett's was). In reality, Martin and Jarrett did not deserve those titles in the first place, but that's another argument for Jarrett being a more deserving championship contender Who cares that Gordon won marquee races in '97 and didn't in '96? I'd still say Gordon's '96 was slightly stronger because he was dominating the races a bit more (especially on the short tracks, which I care far more about than on the marquee race tracks...although I'll grant that Daytona and Talladega came a LOT closer to reflecting talent then than they do now). 407. Sean posted: 10.19.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but that's another argument for Jarrett being a more deserving championship contender [than Terry Labonte in 1996]". Forgot to finish that clause. 408. MStall41 posted: 10.19.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I would argue that it takes much more talent to win plate races now then back in '96-'97. In that era, plate tracks were much closer to 1.5 milers in terms of needing a good handling and aerodynamically sound car to win races, and passing was extremely difficult to boot. Nowadays the guy who wins really has to be the best at working the draft, pushing correctly, timing, and you need a good handling car to boot. 409. ch posted: 07.16.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor for the #30 should be Swan Racing, as the team transferred over from Inception. 410. Qwerty posted: 08.06.2015 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Clint Bowyer's final win 411. joey2448 posted: 08.07.2015 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) ^^^ Hardly. 412. Schroeder51 posted: 08.07.2015 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Clint Bowyer's final win" There's a part of me that wouldn't mind seeing that coming true (I wouldn't mind seeing him going winless the rest of his career after the whole "Spingate" nonsense), but you are WAY too premature in saying that. 413. Premium Doesn't Suck 62 66 94 98 posted: 10.11.2015 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor update: #26 MDS Transport/United Rentals 414. Anthony posted: 04.07.2018 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And 1,990 days, 190 races, & an estimated 48,000 hours later, Clint Bowyer broke the long winless drought at Martinsville! 415. Anthony posted: 04.20.2019 - 6:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was the final NASCAR race to be presented in 4:3 aspect ratio without any bars on the top & bottom if you didn't own a HDTV set but rather owned a SDTV/CRT TV back in the day. Thought it was the July Loudon race at first, but I was wrong. 416. BadBooking posted: 04.20.2019 - 8:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To #415, I imagine its because the race was on ABC and that still had to have 4:3 requirements at that point right? That's my theory anyhow. 417. BluesTravelerFan posted: 06.10.2020 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @410 That comment was so awesome even though it ended up being wrong I still liked it. 418. ShiftIntoTopGear posted: 10.15.2020 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scenes for an episode of the American version of "Top Gear" were filmed during this race weekend; featuring the hosts (Rutledge Wood, Tanner Faust, and Adam Ferrara) building homemade RVs to tailgate in the infield then race them on the Charlotte dirt track against Kenny Wallace, Hermie Sadler, and Max Papis who were driving real, banger RVs. A few NASCAR guys, including Carl Edwards, cameoed in the tailgating challenge which was filmed on qualifying night. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: