|| *Comments on the 2012 AdvoCare 500:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. 18fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Kyle's 10th career pole. He continues a trend since he's been at Gibbs. 2 poles in 2008, 1 pole in 2009, 2 in 2010, 1 in 2011, and 2 in 2012. 2. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Todd Bodine is caught up in a crash in the Truck race... How many damn times has he been in the wall this year? 3. Cooper posted: 11.09.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whats that sound? I believe thats Brad chipping away at Jimmie's lead this weekend. Brad's car is the best car on race runs according to my sources. 4. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.09.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad not starting way behind JJ? Actually starting 10 spots ahead of him? Have I fallen into the Twilight Zone? In all seriousness, excellent start to the weekend for the Blue Deuce. Plus they spent most of that practice today working on race runs. Go Brad, go get it. 5. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Parker Kligerman is caught up in a crash, and his outside shot at the championship is over... Man, this Truck race is a real crash fest. 6. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, they are really tearing up a bunch of trucks tonight. 7. 18fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race started out pretty clean, but every restart more trucks get torn up. 8. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) are they racing on ice? on the plus side, norm benning could get another top 15 :) 9. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Truex learned that move from Joey Logano at Dover in the spring. Totally unnecessary what he did to Mike Harmon. 10. cjs3872 posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Paul, and Kyle Larson made a shrewd move to pass both of them on the outside. 11. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) harmon was over 24 laps down, he had no business being in the middle of the track like that. 12. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) actually it wasn't mike harmon, harmon started the race but brian weber took over driving duties a few laps in. 13. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brendan Gaughan got dumped by German Quiroga. And Ty Dillon was caught up in the crash. Is this the championship right here? 14. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave, Harmon was still up to speed and went to the bottom of the track, not the middle. It wasn't his fault that Truex decided to go right behind him instead of around the outside. German Quiroga just plowed into Brendan Gaughan and Ty Dillon, who drifted up the track on the restart, gets caught up in that mess. I don't know what Phil Parsons is talking about when he said German had nowhere to go since he flat out drove into Brendan as Brendan slowed down for the turn. Brendan's reaction, while a little over the top, was definitely warranted. He'll definitely replace Harvick as RCR's hothead in 2014, provided he's still at RCR. 15. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hey brendan, i'm not sure that yelling at german quiroga jr will do any good, since i'm not sure that german speaks english. 16. Anonymous posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) f**k AN A TY CRASHED SHIT!!!!! Ive herd its already official that Harvic well be at SHR in 2014 also i'm glade Jemmie starts where he is hopefully he'll stay there :D 17. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well in that case, then I meant Brian Weber. I heard he was supposed to drive the truck this weekend, but his name wasn't on the scoring monitor and Harmon started the race. It looks like the announcers are making Brendan look like the bad guy in this ordeal. I guess I can understand since they don't want to upset their Hispanic fans by blaming German for his mistake, but I still don't agree with it. 18. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's okay. Brendan apparently can speak Spanish. I'm sure his message got through. 19. cjs3872 posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, I didn't think it could happen with all the first-time winners we've seen in the Truck Series this year, but could there be still another one tonight in Kyle Larson? Just moments before the crash in turn one, he took the lead from Timothy Peters and Brian Scott, taking advantage of that shrewd move he made just prior to the prior caution. And on another note, they seem to be trying to give James Buescher the title tonight, though that's mathematically impossible with so many trucks already out of the race. First Parker Kligerman, and now Ty Dillon crash, and with Peters already over 20 points out of the lead prior to the race and only three positions ahead of James Buescher, if Buescher could somehow finish ahead of Peters, he'll lock up the title by doing nothing more than finishing the race at Homestead, and he may not even have to do that. 20. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always thought Ryan Sieg had talent, and I'm happy to see him having such a great run in an unsponsored truck. 21. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i know usually the siegs build and run their own stuff, i wonder if maybe they are running a truck they rented from a team like rcr of eddie sharp tonight. 22. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Buescher hits the wall. 23. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) James Buescher crashes! Does Timothy Peters suddenly have a chance at the championship? 24. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All the points contenders except Timothy Peters have now had trouble, things are gonna be tense going into Homestead. 25. Schroeder51 posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Scott...wins? Have we entered another dimension...? 26. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Scott wins! Hey murb, how proud of you of your fellow Idaho native? Haha. Great runs for Kyle Larson and Ryan Sieg. Ryan Blaney passed Sieg on the final restart for 5th place. Ryan Truex and Matt Merrell had really good runs as well. 27. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brain Scott should definitely drive the truck series next year, he's preformed far better there than in N'wide. 28. Kenny posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) can someone tell me how the points are please? 29. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said about a month ago on one of the Cup pages that I thought Brian Scott would be doing a lot better in the Truck Series than the Nationwide Series. I wouldn't be surprised if he runs full-time for KBM in the Truck Series next year. 30. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) doubt scott will be in trucks for kbm. busch said they would run "up to 3 trucks" and one will have coulter full-time, another will run with busch and ross kenseth splitting, and the third might have german quiroga full-time. 31. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In his MRN interview, Brian Scott gave Kyle Larson a lot of credit for racing each other clean and said that Kyle is going to win a lot of races in the future. Ain't that the truth! I don't know what Kyle's 2013 plans are, but he's got a great future in this sport. 32. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenny, James Buescher now has an 11-point lead over Timothy Peters. 33. Kenny posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) thanks :) so i'm guessing TY is in 3ed how far out is he? 34. murb posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hahaha, I haven't even watched the Truck race. I completely forgot about it, and then I jumped on here to see all your guys' comments. Looks like I missed a ton. Congrats to Brian. I agree with New14/88Fan, he definitely should run full time in Trucks next year. Back in 2009 he had a stellar season, with a win at Dover and nearly a top five points finish. And also, it's forgotten that the team he was driving for (owned by his dad, I believe) was basically the washed up remnants of the old IWX team that won back to back championships in 2002 and 2003 with Mike Bliss and Travis Kvapil. Obviously, he's been pretty good in the KBM truck when he has climbed in. So maybe he could find a decent ride (with a team like Eddie Sharpe's or something) and just run exclusively in the Truck Series over the next several years. It has worked for other guys who haven't really succeeded in Cup or NNS (Ron Hornaday, Jack Sprague, Johnny Sauter, Timothy Peters, etc). So why not? And yeah, as an Idaho resident (I'm not actually a native - I was born and spent a lot of time in California), it's cool to see. I've never personally liked Brian, but I do feel a weird connection of sorts to him since he's from Idaho. Even though he embarrasses himself more often than not, I still pull for him deep down. So it's cool to see him get a win. Also, I'm expecting Joey Coulter to have a big year in that 18 truck next year. Now he can get away from RCR's constant tending to the Dillon brothers, and he can focus on being the number one guy on a team and developing himself further. 35. murb posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know what Kyle's 2013 plans are, but he's got a great future in this sport." I read a report by Ray Dunlap about a month or so ago where he said that Kyle would be full time with Turner next year. But I haven't heard anything official. Either they are still putting together sponsorship for it or it fell through. But regardless, I agree Paul. He does have "future Cup star" written all over him. Hopefully he won't fade out like other guys who have had that labeled upon them (Reed Sorenson, Joey Logano, etc). 36. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was a pretty cool win for me to see because even though this was Brian's 2nd career win, it feels like a 1st win to me because I rarely paid attention to the Truck Series before last season. I was really impressed at how well he ran his truck all night. I didn't see any irrational passes or driving too hard in the corner and causing himself to get out of the groove like he's done in the past. He had a great truck and delivered with a win in that truck. And judging by how Kyle Busch's 2012 season in all three series has gone, he and Kyle could end 2012 with the same win total across all three national series', so that's something Brian can tip his cap to. If he doesn't end up at KBM next year, I think Brian going to Red Horse Racing and taking over the #7 truck is a reasonable option at this point. 37. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF and I have talked about the current slate of young drivers in Cup and how their attitudes have turned away a lot of race fans because they are either unrelatable or unlikable, but I think the next generation of Cup stars are going to bring back a lot of fans and keep us interested once the established stars start nearing the end of their career. Guys like James Buescher, Parker Kligerman, Nelson Piquet, Jr., Joey Coulter, Ryan Blaney, Darrell Wallace, Jr., and Kyle Larson are the future of this sport, and judging by their attitudes and driving talents, I'd say the future of NASCAR looks pretty bright. It's a shame that it'll probably be a few years yet before some of them reach Cup, but once they do, we'll have a better group of drivers to root for for years to come. 38. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) if brian scott goes to red horse racing i think he would be in the #11 with kligerman remaining in the #7. unless of course red horse has a brain fart and for some unGodly reason keeps todd bodine. if it wasn't for the toyota care sponsor he would have been fired by midseason at least. now that ron hornaday is no longer with khi and todd bodine is no longer with germain racing, they've both proved why they are both lifers in the truck series. if they have good equipment, they can run good and win races and championships. in average equipment, they run like the washed-up has beens they are. 39. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, that'll be great if it's true about Kyle Larson running full-time in the Trucks next year, especially knowing that he has the talent to win right away. My guess is he'll replace James Buescher, who's almost guaranteed to move up to Nationwide in 2013 regardless of whether he wins this championship or not. Seeing him and Ryan Blaney (who has now run 7 Truck races this year) battle for Rookie of the Year will be a great race in and of itself. 40. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave, Parker Kligerman said a few weeks ago that he has an offer with a Nationwide team to run full-time next year, but he hasn't disclosed the team or manufacturer because the deal isn't set in stone yet. I think Turner Motorsports is his most likely option, but I could see him going to Penske as well if Hornish doesn't re-sign (which I think he will). Also, RHR would be foolish to get rid of Bodine because one of their trucks (#7) isn't locked into the field because they've skipped a number of races this season. If they were to sign another driver to their 3rd truck, they could just move Bodine to the 3rd truck and be locked into the first four races for next season. 41. David posted: 11.09.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "go get it" FEED ME KRELBORN!! Kevin Harvick is headed to Stewart-Haas Racing in 2014, JImmie Johnson is the worst qualifying Chaser, and Brian Scott wins the Truck race. Next thing you know, Brad Keselowski and Johnson will crash out within the first ten laps on Sunday, and suddenly (Seymour) Clint Bowyer is right back in the Chase. Forgive my repeated references to a certain off-Broadway musical. 10,000 points to whoever guesses which one it is. 42. Paul posted: 11.09.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That musical is called "Little Shop of Horrors". Hand over the 10,000 points, David lol. 43. cjs3872 posted: 11.09.2012 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In one moment, elation turned to pure heartbreak for Turner Motorsports when James Buescher had a right front go with 3 laps to go. Buescher was going to have the championship effectively won and Kyle Larson was going to become their fourth winner this year, but Buescher's crash changed everything. But it was something you could see coming. With about 8-10 laps to go, Buescher had slowed down, saying his truck was pushing more and more, so I knew he probably had a right front going down, and sure enough, with 3 laps to go, it did. And I think he knew it was going down, as well. He was just hoping it would last, and it didn't. But what happened to Ty Dillon and Buescher points out exactly what I have been saying about the start-and-parks affecting the championship in the Cup Series, because how the points gap, in terms of what can be made up, is smaller than everyone says, and certainly it affected the Truck Series tonight in that way. Because of the number of S&P's, combined with the high number of crashes in the race's first half, there were only about 22 or 23 trucks running at halfway, and with 40 to go, there were only 20 trucks left running, not counting the rolling wrecks. That meant that Buescher's problem didn't really hurt him that badly, because he only dropped to 17th place, though he actualy did lose ground to Ty Dillon and, most significantly, Timothy Peters, who's now back in it big-time, having moved to second place, one point ahead of Dillon, and 11 behind the leader. And Buescher's bad break meant that Peters cut his deficit by more than half, from 25 to 11. And there are only going to be about 34 cars that will probably try to run the distance in the Cup race, with nine probable S&P's in the field (19, 26, 30, 33, 36, 44, 87, 91, and 98). That means that the most points that can be gained or lost is 39, though the only way that should factor in is if both of the leaders have problems, which I don't expect to see happen. One might, but it's highly improbable to happen to both of them, unless they're both in the same accident. Of course, should they both have a bad race, and if he has a good race at Phoenix Sunday, Clint Bowyer could be back in the hunt for the title. But after what happened tonight, just about anything could happen. 44. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.09.2012 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right Brad, this is your opportunity. Go out and win this race so you can be in position to at least pounce on Jimmie at Miami if nothing else. And I am really pulling for Ryan Blaney to make it to the big stage someday. He has quite a ways to go, but it has been fun this year watching him win his first Truck race and make his presence known in Nationwide driving the #22. 45. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, what I'm interested in seeing is how Johnson gets through traffic on a tight race track like Phoenix, having qualified in 24th place, the worst starting spot out of all the Chase drivers. We saw how mistake-prone he is when he tries driving too hard in traffic at Kansas (which, thanks to his crew, he still salvaged a top ten finish). If Jimmie can be methodical and patient while working his way through traffic, much like his teammate in the #24 car, I think he overcomes his bad starting spot and works his way to the front very quickly. But if he has another Kansas moment, it could be the end of his championship hopes because of how tight the track is and how easy it is for another car to run into you once you're sideways, which we saw in the Truck race when Miguel Paludo ran into Ron Hornaday after Hornaday got sideways. We saw his conservative teammate Kasey Kahne wreck himself on the frontstretch at Phoenix in the spring (after winning the previous race on the new configuration), so it's quite possible that Jimmie may be his own worst enemy at Phoenix if he drives too far over his head. 46. Mr X posted: 11.10.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My boss will actually be at this race. He's not really that much of a fan, but he picked a good race to go to weather wise, Phoenix weather vs a supposed winter snow storm here. 47. BON GORDON posted: 11.10.2012 - 3:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How does Jeff Gordon run on Sunday? I don't know if he'll be good or bad. I think he can earn a Top Ten. 48. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure what to make of JJ's relatively poor qualifying run. Surprising since they spent the whole practice in Q trim. Hopefully they just never get a handle all weekend. But I doubt that. You know every car with HMS stuff on it (a list which will be growing by two next year) will have their info pulled for the 48 team. They are a team that, when they decide to go, 9 times out of 10 they go. I just hope the 2 team nails it for the race and can make up enough points to pounce at Homestead. I believe in them, and most importantly, every member of that team believes in each other. Will this be enough to beat The Emotionless Juggernaut? I hope like hell so. It would be nice to see a true team of brothers win it as opposed to the team that takes as much of the human element out of it as possible. But that 48 team just has a bottomless supply of speed. Time to pull for the power of the human spirit. 49. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Apparently Childress was totally blindsided by Harvick singing with SHR, he didn't tell the owner who gave him his break and has stood by his side through his immature antics for 12 years. I can't believe he wouldn't tell Richard first I can totally believe Harvick wouldn't tell Richard this first. He has no class. 50. Smiff_2 posted: 11.10.2012 - 8:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, Brad's starting ten spots higher than Jimmie on Sunday? I'LL TAKE IT!!! lol Granted, Jimmie will most likely be in the top 10 before lap 50, but....at least we don't have to START the day with him already in the top 3....lol 51. David posted: 11.10.2012 - 9:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That musical is called "Little Shop of Horrors"." Ding ding ding!! And we have a winner! Tell me Paul, how did you know that? 52. Alex posted: 11.10.2012 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's more Silly Season rumors that BK Racing has taken the #23 from R3 Motorsports and may replace Cassill / Kvapil with David Reutimann. Speaking of R3 Motorsports, their current driver, Scott Riggs, apparently might become a driver coach for Danica Patrick at SHR and run some races in a 4th car (Maybe to get some data for Harvick in 2014?). Austin Dillon is also running the Daytona 500 in 2013. 53. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Both Brad and Jimmie are in between the pit stalls of drivers who will either start-and-park or fall many laps down in the race and won't be a factor during pit stops. Brad is between Michael McDowell and Mike Bliss on pit road, and Jimmie is between David Stremme and Stephen Leicht on pit road. "Time to pull for the power of the human spirit." In a way, this championship is a lot like the plot from "The Terminator", in that they are both essentially "Man vs. Machine". Did you guys see Brad during qualifying yesterday when he was goofing off with SPEED reporter (and fellow child of a midwest small-time racer) Wendy Venturini? There's no way the "emotionless juggernaut" would lower himself into being human and showing human emotions for once. "Apparently Childress was totally blindsided by Harvick singing with SHR, he didn't tell the owner who gave him his break and has stood by his side through his immature antics for 12 years. I can totally believe Harvick wouldn't tell Richard this first. He has no class." And to think Childress put his reputation on the line when he essentially fixed the Richmond race last year so that this little punk could take the win away from a driver who does have class and loyalty to his car owner. I can't say I'm surprised because he's been a classless driver for his entire RCR tenure. It's only appropriate that he doesn't make the stage in Las Vegas later this year. "Tell me Paul, how did you know that?" In my senior year of high school, I took a music class and we spent a week or two on musicals, which included watching the "Little Shop of Horrors" movie. There are some things from that movie that stick in my mind, including the "Suddenly Seymour" song and that hilarious scene with Bill Murray and Steve Martin at the dentist. 54. Eric posted: 11.10.2012 - 1:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I would have typed Little Shop of Horrors last night, but Paul already typed the answer. I actually watched the movie version Little Shop of Horrors back in the 1980's as a Kid with Rick Moranis as Seymour. I remembered that talking plant from watching the movie and the fact my parents bought me Little Shop of Horrors the game as a kid. 55. David posted: 11.10.2012 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the movie, but the stage version I like better. Our high school play this year in our town was "Little Shop of Horrors", and I must say, it turned out great. 56. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff, that is exactly what I was thinking. Usually we spend half the race waiting for Brad to come through the field (and this is a short race) then seeing where he is in relation to the 48. But I too have a sinking feeling JJ will find his way to the front. But this track has a reputation for strategies playing out in the end, and at some point those deals have to work in Brad's favor again. Dover was a long time ago. Although Smiff, if I were you, I would almost be pulling for another epic Brad disappointment ;) Paul, I like the Terminator analogy. It is very fitting. Hopefully after Homestead we can look at the 48 and say "You're terminated f****r!" 57. Smiff_2 posted: 11.10.2012 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, I'll probably 'get some' either way, so I'd *MUCH* rather it be in celebration of a good day for Brad.....lol 58. Crash McGehee posted: 11.10.2012 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) God help us; Nur Ali is in the race! 59. Red posted: 11.10.2012 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I don't like Harvick or Childress, so this move suits me just fine. Harvick will fit in nicely at SHR with Ryan and Danica, as all three are whiny punks who overestimate their own ability. It's rather comical that TONY STEWART will play the role of stabilizing force on that team. Meanwhile, I have little respect for Richard Childress, with his mind-numbingly conservative race strategy, underhanded tactics at Richmond, and now his blatant favoritism towards his grandsons. By 2014, his lineup will consist of Austin, Ty, and Menard, and shall be referred to as Team Nepotism. ---- Hey DSFF...Your Panthers vs. my Broncos this weekend. Care to offer a prediction? I'm thinking 31-24 Broncos, with Cam throwing a back-breaking pick-six in the final minutes (not trying to be mean, I could honestly see that happening). 60. Kirk posted: 11.10.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nur Ali's birth name was Crash-us Clay. 61. Smiff_2 posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^^^that's hilarious! xD 62. 18fan posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nur Ali has been replaced by Timmy Hill, so he won't be in the race. 63. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been watching NFL Network's stories on the '92 and '93 Dallas Cowboys teams and I missed the beginning of the race. Two questions: What was the first caution for, and why was Nur Ali replaced? I can't say I'm surprised because he was terrible at Kansas, wasn't allowed to race at Texas, and was very slow in qualifying, but I'm just curious if anyone knows the real reason. 64. Schroeder51 posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First caution was for Noel Dowler spinning. 65. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks Schroeder51. Also, I just read a story saying that NASCAR may implement a minimum qualifying rule after Ali was 17 MPH slower than Derek White, who was the next slowest car. That explains why Ali was replaced and is even more reason why he doesn't belong in the Nationwide Series. 66. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's exactly why I'm not impressed by Austin Dillon. He almost never takes any risks, and whenever he does, he messes up like he did with Brad. If he can't make the necessary passes in a Nationwide race in superior equipment, I don't see how he can do well in Cup in mediocre RCR equipment. 67. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's a shame that good drivers like Tony Raines, Josh Wise, and Blake Koch had to start-and-park while bad drivers like Derek White, Noel Dowler, and John Blankenship are able to run the full race as moving chicanes and "cautions waiting to happen". No wonder people don't take this series seriously. 68. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Meanwhile, I have little respect for Richard Childress, with his mind-numbingly conservative race strategy, underhanded tactics at Richmond, and now his blatant favoritism towards his grandsons. By 2014, his lineup will consist of Austin, Ty, and Menard, and shall be referred to as Team Nepotism." I completely agree Red. But you can't forget Kurt Busch in this equation. He just signed a one year deal with Furniture Row I think, so I'm expecting him to jump over to RCR in 2014. Richard has wanted him for too long (for who knows what reason), so I'm sure he'll make a run at him. Their lineup will probably be Austin in the 3 (causing all of us to cringe as the talking heads constantly refer to him as "carrying on Earnhardt's legacy"), Menard in the 27 (but hopefully he and his dad will see the writing on the wall and will go somewhere else), Kurt in the 31 (I'm expecting a fistfight between him and Childress by mid-season), and Ty in the 33/41/whatever number the fourth car would be. Team Nepotism sounds like a very much appropriate name. I know everyone doesn't like Harvick, but I've actually always liked him for the most part. It's just one of those things where I pulled for him when I was a kid, and I've still supported him through thick and thin. The big thing I like about him is just his versatility and driving talent. I think if he would have kept his head on straight for all these years, he could have achieved Tony Stewart like numbers. That being said, he will NEVER be a Sprint Cup Champion. I was reading another racing forum earlier just for laughs, and they were talking about his move to SHR. These idiots actually think that he can win a Cup when he moves over there!!! Kevin has had a good career. Not bad, not great. Good. He's won almost 20 races, he's won a Daytona 500 and a Brickyard 400. But he's not a champion. He's had the opportunities to (2006, 2010, 2011), but he was too distracted by other things and didn't get it done. Now, he may be less distracted over the next few years, but I just don't see him getting another championship opportunity when he's at SHR. My prediction is that SHR will be way too focused on the whole "let's turn Danica into a contender for the betterment of the sport" thing over the next 4 - 5 years, and Tony, Ryan, and Kevin will all suffer because of it. So to me, historically Harvick falls into the same category as past guys like Ricky Rudd and Geoff Bodine. Really good drivers with polarizing personalities that were never serious threats for championships. 69. Jim Davis posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My prediction is that SHR will be way too focused on the whole "let's turn Danica into a contender for the betterment of the sport" thing over the next 4 - 5 years..." Patrick will have to show a lot of improvement before she can score a 4 or 5 year contract. 70. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Jim. If GoDaddy chooses not to re-sign with her following the 2013 season, she could very well lose her biggest asset, which is sponsorship. Speaking of Danica, she looks really lost when she's in between two cars on the track, as she almost ran Justin Allgaier into Elliott Sadler and the wall as she was briefly 4-wide with another car to her inside. 71. Schroeder51 posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) People are predicting Harvick will win a title with Stewart Haas? It's still not as silly as the few people out there I've seen predicting Danica will make the Chase next year and seriously contend for the title. 72. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I understand what you're saying Jim. She does need to improve a great deal. But I'm afraid that she isn't going anywhere over the next few years. She's way too big of a name, and she creates a huge buzz for the race team she's racing for. So I don't see anyway that she would be fired or something for performance. The sponsorship and media stuff is what keeps you in rides now, and obviously she's a huge cash cow for any race team that if fortunate enough to have her. But yeah, I agree, she's garbage in the Cup cars so far. Logano is dominating the NNS race. Go figure. 73. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said on the Texas race page, if GoDaddy were to leave (which they very well could - I wouldn't be surprised), I really, really, really, really, really doubt that she won't have a new sponsor. She's too big of a name for most companies to pass up. Plus, even if they couldn't find a sponsor, I'm sure Rick Hendrick and Hendrickcars.com would fix that. Just like how they "sponsor" Kasey Kahne and other Hendrick affiliated cars when they don't have a sponsor. 74. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2 team is blowing it on pit road. It's probably going to be Stenhouse's title to lose now. Damn it. 75. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Wallace taps Timmy Hill and spins him around. MRN says "Timmy Hill spins in turn 3!", ESPN says "And Joey Logano takes the lead!" Way to express emotion towards the real drama instead of creating your own drama, BSPN. Great save by Timmy, though. 76. David posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know everyone doesn't like Harvick, but I've actually always liked him for the most part." I can't decide whether I like Harvick or not. I know I essentially called him an idiot last week, but I think I base some of my opinions of drivers too much on what I read about them from other posters. Right now I'm leaning toward dislike. 77. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I like about Harvick is that he stands up for his teammates, such as at Richmond '03 when he stood up for Johnny Sauter against Matt Kenseth (the night before he made a fool of himself with Ricky Rudd) and at Dover '10 when he berated Denny Hamlin for calling out Clint Bowyer for cheating. I also like that he beat Junior at Charlotte last year when NASCAR refused to throw the caution flag for Brad and Burton wrecking because they didn't want a G-W-C since Junior didn't have enough fuel, only for Junior to run out anyways. That's the stuff I like about him. But his bad attitude when things aren't going well for his team is what keeps me from rooting for him. The fact that he and his childish antics at Darlington last year overshadowed Regan Smith's first official Cup win may be his biggest thorn in my side. It wasn't Harvick or Kyle's moment, it was Regan's moment and together they stole the spotlight. Basically, I view him as a bully. He has picked fights with Biffle, Kenseth, and Kyle because he knew they weren't going to do anything back, and intentionally wrecked Trevor Bayne at Richmond last year for the same reason. But when he confronts someone who doesn't back down, such as Ricky Rudd, Nemechek, and Montoya, he backs off and tries to look tough in his interview afterwards. Jeff Burton said it best at Martinsville 2010 when he said that since Harvick has been in the sport for a decade, he figured that Harvick would get the hint that he's always getting in the middle of conflicts and that maybe he should fix himself rather than ask that everyone else bend over backwards for him. He's a bully, a punk, and a tool, and that's why I don't like him. It's only appropriate that he goes to SHR to drive for his best friend, who is a more talented version of Harvick. 78. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Noel Dowler and John Blankenship must have had a bet to see how much TV time they would get. 79. David posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The fact that he and his childish antics at Darlington last year overshadowed Regan Smith's first official Cup win may be his biggest thorn in my side. It wasn't Harvick or Kyle's moment, it was Regan's moment and together they stole the spotlight." Whenever I think of Darlington 2011, I always think of Smith's win first. 80. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There it is. 81. Schroeder51 posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ricky Stenhouse Jr.-2012 Nationwide Champion 82. Anonymous posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Championship goes to Stenhouse! Sadler just got way too aggressive and he has no one to blame but himself. 83. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Whenever I think of Darlington 2011, I always think of Smith's win first." There is more highlight footage of Harvick and Kyle than of Regan Smith from that race. Elliott Sadler wrecks! Dammit, there goes the championship. 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, here is my Carolina/Denver prediction: Denver 38 Carolina 24 (14 garbage time points) 85. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Elliott did the exact same thing to Allgaier/Whitt that Leffler did to him last year. Definitely his fault. Hopefully he realizes how good he will have it at JGR next year. With Stenhouse gone, I'm looking at Elliott to be the odds on favorite to win it next year. Rooting for Vickers on this restart. 86. 18fan posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great racing for the lead between Logano and Vickers before that caution. 87. David posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Elliott, can you spell deja vu? 88. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ironically enough, Elliott Sadler, who is FAR less mistake prone than Stenhouse, has cost himself a championship two years in a row. Last year he slid up in front of Jason Leffler and had to get on the brakes early because of his corner entry angle, and no he makes contact with Cole Whitt for no reason and gets run into by teammate Brendan Gaughan that tore the splitter off. He should have faster cars next year when he goes to JGR though. 89. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) J-Logs. 90. 18fan posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm so happy for Joey. He's proven he can win Nationwide races. He needs to be a full-time Nationwide driver, because he's been terrible in Cup. 91. cjs3872 posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb (#68), Harvick has had a very good career. Not a great one, but a very good one, as you've said, as he's one of only three active drivers to have won all three of the sport's biggest events, the Daytona 500 (in 2007), the Brickyard 400 (in 2003, the first to win that race from the pole), and the Coca-Cola 600 (in 2010), as well as having a win in the All-Star Race (in 2007, the year of his Daytona 500 win). That's something that only the two winningest active drivers, Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson, can say. Usually when Harvick's won, he's won big, as he has wins in every big race except the Southern 500. I think with better equipment and a better team, he can be a champion. Part of his problem at Childress is the fact that he has nobody else of his caliber in RCR equipment to bounce ideas off of, so he's basically a lone wolf, a lot like Kurt Busch was at Penske from 2006-'10. what Harvick needs is to be on a team with drivers whose ability equal his, and at Stewart-Hass Racing in 2014, he's finally going to have that for the first time since Jeff Burton fell off a cliff in 2010. And as for Elliott Sadler taking himself out of the championship today, he did it to himself. First, by crashing his primary car in qualifying, then late in the race, first running all over Justin Allgaier for apparently no reason and then running into Cole Whitt, spinning them both out. The guy you realy have to feel for in that incident is Brendan Gaughan, who had no part in that crash, but had his car badly damaged, as well. That makes two days in a row for Gaughan, who was involved in the incident in last night's truck race with Ty Dillon, though Gaughan was the one spun out in that one. With what's happened in both the Truck and Nationwide races this weekend, that makes me believe even more that one of the two main championship rivals are going to have a bad race tomorrow. I don't know which one, but either Jimmie Johnson is going to practically lock up his sixth title, or Brad Keselowski will regain a hold onhe point lead. And don't count Clint Bowyer completely out of it, either. With wha's happened this weekend, there's a chance that both Johnson and Keselowski run into trouble, re-opening the door for Clint Bowyer, who's only 36 points back in third place. 92. Schroeder51 posted: 11.10.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So true, 18fan. If Joey had been running the full Nationwide schedule this year, we wouldn't even be bothering to wonder about Stenhouse vs. Sadler, because Logano would have locked the title up...probably WEEKS ago. 93. Red posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Newman and Harvick's teams get dragged down because of SHR's focus on Danica, how long will it take before the internal fighting begins? I can't see a hothead like Kevin putting up with that for very long. Although it won't begin until 2014, SHR with that lineup just seems like a ticking time bomb to me. On a side note, I wonder if Harvick will bring the #29 with him? RCR will probably keep the #31, #27, and probably start using the #3 (unfortunately), so I could see Richard allowing Kevin to take his number with him to SHR. murb, I agree that Kurt Busch could find his way to RCR in the near future, but with Kurt's abrasive personality, it won't last more than a year. Plus, similar to the SHR/Danica situation, I can't help but think Richard will favor Austin and Ty over anyone else who drives for him. If that was the case, it would certainly piss off a guy like Kurt Busch, and we all know what happens when Kurt Busch gets pissed off. I admittedly never watch Nationwide races, but I'm happy to see Stenhouse win the championship, because his risk-taking driving style is a nice change from the wave of points strokers we've seen over the last decade. Maybe Ricky's style will rub off on other drivers (I doubt it, but it would make NASCAR more interesting). Darlington 2011? My memories of that race are Regan winning and Carl blowing the restart with fresh tires, not Kyle and Kevin's bitch fit. The only Harvick incident that overshadows a race in my memory was the 2003 Richmond flap with Rudd. I remember that as the "Yap Yap Mouth" race. 94. Kubica Fan posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hi guys Iwas just wondering what you think is the best achievement in the modern-era of nascar.(that will most likely not be matched) I would go with Yarborough's 77 season when his average finish was 4.5 . No one has got near that mark since,Gordon averaged 5.7 in 1998 and Earnhardt 5.9 in 1987.Also if nascar were to re-introduce a Winston million type scheme which 4 or 5 races would you like to see involved.I suggest if you win 3 of 5 "crown jewels" you get the prize, that way there is more chance of it happening and building interest in the sport, while still making it a difficult task that only the elite can achieve. Your thoughts- I am Irish by the way. 95. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The fact they didn't let Harvick get to Ricky Rudd on the night in Richmond in '03 is one of the greatest disappointments of my sport watching life. The Rooster would have beat the ever loving shit out of him and it would have been awesome. 96. Eric posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, You got it wrong when Kevin Harvick won the Coco Cola 600. Kevin won the 600 in 2011, not 2010. 97. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From someone who missed the Darlington race because he was working that night, I can tell you that there was more coverage of the Harvick/Kyle incident than Regan Smith getting his first official win. Maybe if I had seen it live and saw Regan hold off a fast Carl Edwards I would have a different opinion of this, but because of the fact that there are more highlights of Harvick trying to swipe at Kyle on pit road than there are of Regan Smith taking the checkered flag or being in victory lane (I still haven't see a video of his victory lane interview) suggests that the hot topic from that race was the Harvick/Kyle incident, rather than a first time winner. Harvick would have gotten his ass kicked by Ricky Rudd. My favorite part of that was when Rudd, having been restrained by crew chief Pat Tryson who was basically preventing Rudd from leaving his car, chucked his HANS device at Harvick's crew as they took off following their master with their tails tucked between their legs. The fact that Harvick still hasn't learned from that incident is further proof that drivers who act immature at the start of their career will never change. The Busch brothers are also examples of this. 98. Paul posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric is correct. Kurt Busch won the 2010 Coca-Cola 600. This might just be me because I never saw the race, but I think his win was also overshadowed by an RCR driver and Kyle Busch having a post-race spat, when Jeff Burton got in Kyle's face about cutting his tire down late in the race. 99. Eric posted: 11.10.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Jeff Burton could have been on the same caliber as Kevin Harvick, but Jeff Burton was not the same driver since Dale Earnhardt Sr. died. Jeff Burton matter of fact was involved in safety for NASCAR after Dale died. Jeff Burton's Peak as a driver was from 1997 to 2000. Yes, Jeff Burton finished in the top 10 in points 4 more times, but he was never quite the same driver. Jeff Burton was a great driver from 1997 to 2000. Jeff had 15 of 21 wins from that time period including winning 1999 Coco Cola 600 and 1999 Southern 500. Jeff Burton had 64 top 5's and 86 top 10's from 1997 to 2000. That means Jeff Burton only had 68 top 5's and 182 top 10's in his other 15 full time years in cup. Clint Boywer actually has the capabilities of being near the caliber as Kevin Harvick. While Clint doesn't win Majors, Clint is capable of 3 to 4 races a year. Clint is from the same mold as Terry Labonte and Ricky Rudd in terms of types of track getting most of his wins from. 100. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.10.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick would have been the Honky Tonk Man, and The Rooster would have been the Ultimate Warrior. 101. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "murb, I agree that Kurt Busch could find his way to RCR in the near future, but with Kurt's abrasive personality, it won't last more than a year. Plus, similar to the SHR/Danica situation, I can't help but think Richard will favor Austin and Ty over anyone else who drives for him. If that was the case, it would certainly piss off a guy like Kurt Busch, and we all know what happens when Kurt Busch gets pissed off." Spot on, Red. It will be interesting though to see how Kurt does with Furniture Row for a full season (if he isn't fired, that is). He's had some great runs in that car already, including an 8th place finish last week and a top 15 rebound after spinning out at Martinsville. But I definitely think that he is on the track to replacing Burton in the 31 in 2014. I think Richard will have Ty do at least one full year of NNS before Cup, so Ty probably won't be in Cup till 2015. And obviously, Austin will be the heir apparent to Harvick in the 29 (or most likely, the 3). That 2003 Richmond race with Harvick and Rudd was pure gold. The incident between them really did overshadow the race (won by Ryan Newman), and it's a shame because it was actually a really fun race. I vaguely remember watching it live as a kid, but I saw it on Youtube recently and decided to check out the full race. Newman had to actually earn it at the end because there were like 3 or 4 late race restarts where he had to hold off a bunch of fast cars, including Harvick and Rudd before their dustup. If you haven't seen it, you should go look it up. Underrated race from the later period of the Winston Cup Series. I think it was also a bit of a crash fest though. 102. cjs3872 posted: 11.10.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you, Eric (and Paul) for correcting me. It was last year when Harvick woin the 600, not 2010. But the overall point of that post was to illustrate that. although Harvick han't won that often in his career, when he does, it's usually big. In addition to those wins in the three biggest races and the All-Star Race, he's also won the Talladega spring race and the Firecracker 400 (both in 2010). That means that of the six biggest races on the circuit, seven if you count the All-Star Race, he's won all but one of them, with the Southern 500 being the only one of them he hasn't won, and he's made it a goal to win that race, as well. While we all agree that Jeff Gordon's the greatest money driver in the sport's history, and that Jimmie Johnson has a sterling recrd in the sport's biggest events, if you want to talk about money drivers in NASAR today, Kevin Harvick may be, along with Matt Kenseth, the best among the rest of the drivers whe it comes to performing their best in the sport's biggest events, and I rate Harvick slightly above Kenseth in that regard, since he's won so many of the sport's biggest races. In fact, here are the top "money" drivers in the sport today: 1. Jeff Gordon (for obvious reasons) 2. Jimmie Johnson (again, for obvious reasons) 3. Kevin Harvick 4. Matt Kenseth 5. Jamie McMurray (when he has a competitve car) 103. ch posted: 11.11.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Using 2013 Qualifying rules (top 36 fastest then by owner's points)... 36th - #19 Bliss (Last to time in on speed) 37th - #93 Kvapil (28th in Owner's Points) 38th - #10 Patrick (33rd in Owner's Points) 39th - #32 Hill (34th in Owner's Points) 40th - #36 Blaney (35th in Owner's Points) 41st - #26 Wise (40th in Owner's Points) 42nd - #87 Nemechek (42ndth in Owner's Points) 43rd - #37 Yeley (50th in Owner's Points) DNQ - #91 Leffler (51st in Owner's Points) So to recap, under the 2013 system, JJ Yeley and the #37 Max Q Motorsports team would have made the race while Jason Leffler and the #91 Humphrey Smith Racing team would not have. 104. Nelson (9fan, 24hater) posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There'll be either 21 or 22 drivers in the Daytona Shootout next year. Both Brad Keselowski and Clint Bowyer are not eligible for the race, so you could potentially see 1st and 2nd in the points not the Shootout for probably the first time. 105. Kenny posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jemmie got the pole the past 2 weeks so be should be there 106. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 12:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why are Boywer and Kesolowski not elgible for the Shootout? 107. Eric posted: 11.11.2012 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) jabber1990, You have to win a pole to be in the race. That doesn't explain Nelson (9fan, 24hater)'s claim of Brad Keselowski and Clint Bowyer are not eligible for the race though outside of not winning a pole. Clint and Brad currently don't have a pole and that means one of both of them will not be in the shootout next year. I haven't heard anything thing about Clint and Brad not being allowed to race in the shootout. There is no logic on why Brad wouldn't be allowed if he wins a pole at Homestead since Rusty raced in shootouts with the same sponsorship as Brad currently has. 108. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) they dont do the coors light pole winner being eligible for the Bud Shootout anymore (for an obvious reason) 109. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good Lord. Watching the Panthers/Broncos game (we just got a rare first quarter TD), and not only are half the seats empty, but 90% of the 50% of the filled seats are people in orange. I know the Panthers have given us fans nothing to be excited about this year or the previous years, but this is embarrassing. 110. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually jabber1990, they have gone back to the pole eligibility rules, as of this spring. Now winning a pole qualifies you for the Shootout, as it did through 2008. Previous Shootout winners also automatically qualify for that event, as has been the case since 2001. I'm not sure if all the drivers in the Chase wil be eligible. That could create the uncomfortable position of having the reigning series champion not participate in the Shootout. If that were to occur, hatwould mean that thre would be a likely rule change for 2014 ensuring that any previous series champion would be eliugible, as it would just not be right for the reigning series champion not to be in the Shootout. But there is no sponsorship for the Shootout any more, as it's going to be called the "Daytona Shootout", so what kept Richard Petty's cars out of the Shootout in previous years when his drivers were eligible, will not exist ay more, and both of his drivers are eligible, even if they stay with Petty's team. But all 12 drivers that make the Chase should automatically be in the Shootout, but I don't think that's the case, meaning that Keselowski may have to sit it out, even if he wins the championship, whichwould be a travesty. 111. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are the eligibility rules for the Daytona Shootout: - All drivers who won pole positions via time trials (which would not include Casey Mears, since he won his Bristol pole because he was the fastest car in practice and qualifying was rained out). - Any previous Shootout winners that have attempted to qualify for any of the 36 points races in the previous season. So if he indeed does win the championship and fails to win the pole at Homestead next week, the defending Cup champion will not be in the Daytona Shootout next year. 112. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Peyton Manning has tied Dan Marino for second all time on the TD thrown list with 420 (they are a Colorado based team, you make the joke), behind only Brett Favre. Combined championship total for these 3 titans? 2. #joecoolrulesall 113. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale wasn't in the Shootout in 1981 or 1992. 114. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon didn't make the Shootout in '93, and then the next day he recorded his first career pole and hasn't missed the Shootout since. 115. Eric posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Dan Marino has excuses for not having a championship unlike Brett only having 1 championship. Brett had good to great running backs in his Career such as Levens, Green, Thomas Jones, and Peterson. Dan didn't have any true good running backs to speak of. Dan Marino matter of fact for most of his career didn't have a decent running game unlike Brett. Not having a running game hurt Dan Marino against the 49ers in the Super bowl because all the stars the 49ers had in the secondary actually were in the pro bowl that year and that means the 49ers were able to develop pass rush against Marino. Brett had better defenses than Marino did in points of Favre's NFL Career. Dan usually did not have a good defense before Jimmy Johnson because head coach of the Dolphins. The 1984 Dolphins gave up over 300 yards and 3 touchdown to Mark Malone of all quarterbacks in the AFC Championship game against the Steelers in a 45 to 28 route. That meant Montana would have a field day against the Dolphins since Joe in 1984 was way better than Mark Malone. 116. 44andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...also, with Reut now running a car he doesn't share with The Princess, maybe I should change my name on here to this. (Doesn't hurt that it's the old Labonte Busch number either!) 117. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BSPN is doing some segment right now where hey are showing Marty Smith going to get a haircut. Yeah. 118. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *they 119. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They truly have the worst vignettes of anyone. Compare them to SPEED's much better vignettes. And I don't care for Marty Smith either. He is big within the sport because he kisses every driver's ass and becomes somebody they give info to as he is hanging on to their nuts. But he is not a good writer and is horrible on TV. 120. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ESPN's vignettes are reminiscent of The Ultimate Warrior's promos in 1990-1991. 121. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad you mentioned SPEED's vignettes, DSFF. Did you guys see the great piece they did prior to the Truck race? They showed a lot of great footage showcasing the past stars of the series like Rick Crawford, Ted Musgrave, and Mike Bliss, remarking that it used to be a veteran series with blue-collar drivers trying to win a championship, rather than the developmental series it has become. Then they showed the present series and how the biggest names of recent years have been the younger drivers like the Dillons, James Buescher, and Nelson Piquet, Jr., and how the footprints laid by the veterans who made this series have built it into what it is now, which is the #3 division in NASCAR and how it has now been molded into a developmental series that still has some of its past stars (Hornaday, Bodine, Starr) maintaining an element of nostalgia in the series. Great work SPEED. It's a lot better than that Kid Rock shit that BSPN tries making us like. 44andJoe, your new name just doesn't roll right off the tongue like your past two names. Jarrett88fan, that's an insult...to the Ultimate Warrior! At least his promos were entertaining and got you pumped up for his match, while BSPN's vignettes make me change the channel. 122. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, that would be a travesty, as I mentioned, because the reigning series champion needs to be in that race. After all, how can you have an All-Star-type event without the most recent series champion in the field? That makes no sense to me at all. And Gordon was a rookie in 1993 and didn't win his first pole until the fall race at Charlotte that year. Kyle Petty wo the pole for the Daytona 500 that year, the final pole of his career. I think you're referring to Jimmie Johnson, who did win the pole for the Daytona 500 as a rookie in 2002, but was not eligible for the Shootout, because it was for 2001 pole winners, and past event and series champions. The same thing happened with Loy Allen, Jr. (1994) and Mike Skinner (1997). 123. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, my mistake cjs. I was thinking of Gordon's win in the Duel race and confused it for a pole. I wasn't thinking of Jimmie Johnson, I just incorrectly stated that Gordon won the pole for the Daytona 500 when he actually won the Duel race. 124. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How many times has Bowyer been the in-race reporter in the chase? 125. 10andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, while we wait for the race to start, here's a Blast from the Past for you. Bristol, 1996. Dave Despain, Benny Parsons, and Mike Bliss on his lid. "...and meanwhile here comes a wreck!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stqFKF3Dmog 126. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sounds like Truex's engine is running sour. 127. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex is already having engine problems. Wow. 128. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Bliss doesn't even have a chance to start and park before he crashes. 129. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad stalled his car leaving his pit stall and is now behind Jimmie. 130. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was a risky 3-wide pass by Brad entering turn 1. He's lucky Montoya backed off, otherwise he could have slipped into him. 131. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Chad raging on the radio. 132. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This looks like it's Kyle Busch's race to lose. Fastest in all practices, won the pole, fastest car out there so far...Sometimes, it's just your day! 133. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reutimann's new team is a start and park team...Not all that surprising. 134. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 44 team announced they were going to start-and-park this year to gather data for next year. 135. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So they are running the full schedule next year, then? 136. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes they are. 137. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That hit looked like David Ragan's crash here in 2011. Which was one of the worst impacts I've ever seen as a result of a blown right front tire. 138. beau posted: 11.11.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) espn fail. kulwicki won in 1988 not 1998. he was dead for 5 years in 1998. 139. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like a BS debris caution may have been called... 140. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Horse Shit 141. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep, there's the Bruton Smith Tribute Caution of the Race. (Yeah, I know that Bruton doesn't own Phoenix, but every time there is a lame debris caution from now on, this is what I will call it.) 142. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did you guys see Jeff bail totally out of the throttle to save Jimmie? What a crock of shit. 143. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, Gordon temporarily turned into Derek White on that restart. 144. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, maybe he is Barrichelloing for Jimmie. Ryan Newman and Kevin Harvick are running top three? That's gonna cost them some points in the Chase for the Invisible Man Championship. Carl just made up some major ground on them in that department. 145. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon and Johnson are both out of my Top 10 historical rankings. Jeff paid for his ownership share of the 48 car with his balls, and JJ needs Jeff to double team people to beat them. But JJ is head cause he beat Gordon head to head in '07. 146. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yeah Kasey, you play good soldier too pretty boy. 147. Archie posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate it when ESPN lets the "B-team" morons talk, for an entire segment, and then hurries back to a commercial. 148. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But JJ is head cause he beat Gordon head to head in '07" Yeah...because beating someone in the final 10 races after a points reset totally makes up for the fact that he was 410 points behind Jeff entering the Chase. "And yeah Kasey, you play good soldier too pretty boy." This I do agree with. I used to like Kasey when he was winning races and overachieving for Evernham and RPM, but he has developed an attitude and is now just a cog in the machine at HMS. 149. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or does ESPN have more commercial breaks than Fox, Speed, and TNT? 150. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is it just me or does ESPN have more commercial breaks than Fox, Speed, and TNT?" Every race on BSPN is essentially a 3-4 hour commercial, so pretty much. 151. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, it's really hard for me to listen to that Pit Studio team anymore. You've got Nicole "My Husband is an IndyCar Driver, So That Means I Know/Care About Auto Racing" Briscoe. Rusty is great when he is being blunt, which he has shown he can do this year, but more often than not, he just says the same stuff over and over. Then you've got Daugherty who shouldn't even be there in the first place. And now they've got Evernham and his Mount Rushmore sized sense of entitlement. It gets more and more annoying with each race. Thankfully though, Allen, DJ, and Andy are a pretty good team together in the booth. But overall, BSPN is the worst out of the three Nascar networks. 152. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't be the only one here who thinks Johnson and Keselowski are going to tie for the points lead at the end of the year, am I? 153. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had no idea Kevin Harvick was in the top 10, and here he is running in 3rd. He, Carl, and Joey are leading the invisibility category this year. 154. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldn't Paul Menard rank up there too? He's so invisible no one has even bothered ranking him on the invisibility scale! 155. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still like Kasey, though I have noticed a bit of an attitude change since he moved to Hendrick. But I can definitely tolerate watching him win more than some other guys out there, who shall remain nameless. 156. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey's not gonna pass JJ even though his car is better, so just take the cameras off them. 157. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What's sad though is that ESPN takes these races far more seriously than Fox and TNT. Fox was an embarrassment this year as Darrell decided going senial meant he should talk more, Mikey entered the foray and did his annoying shtick, and Mike Joy was seemingly on depressants the entire time as he stopped caring very quickly. Then on TNT you have a bad play-by-play announcer in AA (even though Ralph Sheheen worked for TNT) and a non-stop commercial fest. BSPN sucks, but unfortunately they are the best network out of those three. Of course, SPEED kicks all of their asses (even with Mikey in the booth). 158. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Doomsday Preppers is involved with sponsoring an ESPN stat? Really?! ESPN's coverage is so bad, it's almost tragic! 159. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's what the 2012 Invisible Man 12 Man Chase looks like: 1. Carl Edwards 2. Ryan Newman 3. Kevin Harvick 4. Joey Logano 5. Jamie McMurray 6. Jeff Burton 7. Paul Menard 8. Kurt Busch (until he wrecks and loses his mind, of course) 9. Bobby Labonte 10. Juan Pablo Montoya 11. David Ragan 12. Marcos Ambrose 160. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the hell...Kasey passed Jimmie Johnson? What is this? 161. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard still has a ride??? ;) Don't worry, Brad will just take the lead and trump the HMS "let the #48 pass you" routine. 162. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, at least Kasey has one testicle left. 163. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad to the lead. 164. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson smacked the wall!!! 165. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OH!!!!!! 166. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everybody, start partying your asses off! 167. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES! 168. John Royal posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am shitting bricks!!!!!!!!!!!!! 169. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh my God I am gonna pass out! 170. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I swear I can hear people changing channels back to the race. 171. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am doing The Ultimate Warrior jogging in place dance. 172. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Listen to the crowd!!! 173. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) It's time for the Keselowski dynasty to begin... 174. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They're pushing him behind the wall. Lol at the fans cheering. 175. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie going behind the wall. 176. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to go, Goodyear! 177. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, cjs was right. He predicted that one or both of the top 2 drivers in points would have a problem and open up the points lead, and he was correct. Now it's up to Brad to finish as high as possible and not give up this golden opportunity. 178. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just came home to see Jimmie go behind the wall, I approve 100% 179. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay Stewart and Hamilton, we get it. You use Mobil 1. 180. Kenny posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) JEMMIE CRASHED YES YES YESSSSSSSS @DSFF are you as happy as me WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO and did you ppl hear the fans cheer i'm not the only happy motherf**ker 181. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somehow that commercial gives me this really odd feeling that Lewis Hamilton might one day go the Juan Pablo Montoya route and end up in NASCAR... That would be pretty weird if that happened. 182. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised the 24, 5, 88, 14, 39, and 10 didn't go behind the wall too. 183. Talk4Tar posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not counting my chickens before they hatch, but I am pretty stoked for Brad right now. 184. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Lewis Hamilton would be better than Juan Pablo Montoya. 185. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lewis Hamilton is far more talented than Montoya, so i'd like to see how he would do dont forget, he out-ran Stewart in his own car at watkins glen 186. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've thought the same thing, Schroeder51. And with NASCAR's "Drive for Diversity" program, he'd have a great opportunity in NASCAR if he chooses to come over. Oh and DSFF, it looks like karma came to collect on the #48 team this week. 187. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldn't be surprised, Schroeder. I can totally see that happening in a few years. Probably driving for SHR too. Bowyer might finish 2nd in points after all this. He and Jimmie are pretty close on that. 188. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Not because Johnson crashed, but because he lost MAJOR POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 189. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #188 was me. 190. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Six guys are going for 2nd. Just by Jimmie crashing out, the racing gets better. Imagine that... 191. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had his main competitor been Captain Choke Denny I would have said Johnson still had a chance, but Brad rarely faults even under pressure. 192. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha, I can see it now. Stewart, Harvick, Danica, and Hamilton all driving for SHR. There would be no leadership on that team and there'd be plenty of soundbites. 193. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) imagine the fans that NASCAR would gain, a black foreginer but in all seriousness, I see at first Hamilton being good at road-courses and martinsvile, since they are high-activity tracks, you are constantly starting, stopping, braking, shifting 194. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I missed the call by MRN. What did they say?!?! 195. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That would be the most insane, chaotic NASCAR team we've ever seen if that did happen. 196. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart, Harvick, Danica, and Hamilton all driving for SHR." lol 197. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) STOP PLAYING KID ROCK!!!! 198. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who will ESPN come up with to promo the Chase next year worse than Kid Rock? I know it can be done. 199. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) $#!* collective bricks 'history' people... 200. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who listens to Kid Rock? Kept hearing his crap throughout the election year and of course their terrible chase intro. 201. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BSPN's coverage of this race is BS. I feel bad for Shrubby's lack of coverage. 202. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who listen to KidRock, TeamPlayersBlue? My best guess is the "casual" NASCAR fans. 203. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best run of Kyle Busch's season. You'd never know about it though. Thanks for the Johnson coverage ESPN. Make sure we see him 7 or 8 more times before he even comes back out. 204. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR might just replace Kid Rock with Mitt Romney next year. Why have the warm-up act when you can have the main attraction? 205. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan hits the wall...looks like ANOTHER flat right front tire. 206. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here he comes back out. Let's make sure to get every second of him going through the garage, just so we can see if crashes again." - BSPN Caution for David Ragan it looks like. 207. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does any other team have crew chiefs? Chad Knaus is on the screen more than the race. 208. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NRF, you may be the first person to feel bad for Kyle. In all seriousness, BSPN has been very lousy today. I think they entered this race with two agendas: Brad and Jimmie. Pretty sad that this is the "best" sports network in the U.S. Heck, they went to commercial just as David Ragan crashed. In the past, they would've jumped back to the race as soon as someone crashed. David, I stepped out of the room for a few minutes and didn't hear what may have been said on MRN when you asked. 209. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff and Kasey are in front of Brad on the restart, so we may see some blocks. 210. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I swear, every time they show Kenseth on the track, he is next to the 20 car. Oh, the irony. 211. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why doesnt ESPN hire me as a spokesman? I would love it except im not good-looking, that might be why 212. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mark Martin's a classy guy. He put Brad in a bad position by making it 3-wide in the turn along with Matt Kenseth, and backed off to avoid a wreck. For someone with a teammate still in the championship hunt, I tip my hat to him. 213. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony spins, and his car makes some kind of robot sound as he drives it back, lol 214. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "except im not good-looking, that might be why" Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 215. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reason for caution: Tony Stewart cuts down in front of Aric Almirola to avoid Ryan Newman, spinning out in the process. BSPN logic: Tony Stewart cuts down to avoid Ryan Newman and gets turned around by Aric Almirola. Yeah, it's always the non-Chasers fault, isn't it BSPN. 216. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its been the same like, 6 or 7 commercials all day. 217. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Keselowski and Co made the wrong call on pit road this time. Sucks. What did he go from 3rd to 10th? 218. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What's the point of Jimmie even being on track if he can't gain anything? 219. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the hell BSPN? How dare you cover a non-Chase driver like Kyle Busch, even though he's led nearly every lap in this race. 220. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey doesn't put up a fight against his future teammate. 221. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica is still feuding with Hornish...really? 222. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Nice job cutting Hornish's tire down and sending him into the wall, Princess. 223. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica vs Hornish. The longest rivalry nobody cares about. 224. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd like to commend Danica on her drive today. Run like trash, ruin someone on the lead lap's day right towards the end of the race. Good job, miss. What a respectable driver and young lady. 225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are absolutely right MarkMartinFan. 226. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anybody else realize that Dale Jr is 2 laps down? 227. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Waiting to see how Damon defends Danica... 228. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh my goodness. One of NASCAR's most invisible drivers this year is about to crack the winner's circle. 229. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon in the wall. 230. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dammit Jeff! 231. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It never ends... 232. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks Danica for helping Kyle lose the damn race. No caution for Gordon? Come on, this is BS. 2nd time NASCAR screws Kyle out of a win. 233. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice job Clint. Only makes sense that we don't get a caution for this. 234. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think NASCAR hates Jeff for some reason... 235. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon paid Clint's ass back!!! 236. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, they'll throw cautions for water bottles, but when there's guys with huge damage by hitting the wall and having tire rubs, they won't? Way to be consistent. Whoops, nevermind. Huge wreck with a bunch of guys. 237. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon payback! 238. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh wow, Rick. 239. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL Gordon actually helped Brad gain 2 points. 240. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, that is bad by Jeff. 241. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT 242. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. That was ridiculous by Jeff Gordon. 243. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hey David, better looking women than you have told me how unattractive I am and so have women who you look better than have told me the same thing 244. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff, that was completely classless. Head on? Really? BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF HIM!!!!!!! 245. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn Jeff. I understand you're trying to salvage whatever points you're trying not to lose but when you're around guys and you have problems, HEED DAMN IT!!!!! And now the crews are wanting to whoop his ass, and I don't blame them one bit. 246. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watch Jeff Gordon be sat out at Homestead... 247. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Run Clint Run!! 248. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ROFLMFAO 249. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jeff Gordon's NASCAR career=over. I officially renounce my Jeff Gordon fandom. 250. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would like to congratulate NASCAR. Its officiating is officially in the top-five biggest farces in history. 251. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint Bowyer was gonna go get him a piece of Jeff Gordon too. Lol 252. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, so it's unclassy for Jeff to pay Clint back, but it's totally okay for Clint's crew members to jump Jeff when he's not looking. Good logic. 253. Jocke Persson posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meltdown !!!! And Bowyer runs like heck :) I like that the ESPN crew sits silent through it all. 254. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish they'd let Bowyer get to him. I'd have punched him right in the face. 255. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Here's hoping NASCAR sits Gordon for Homestead. They will if they're smart. 256. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sits him OUT, I mean. 257. Washed Up Has-Been posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I hope Jeff's face got rearranged by Bowyer's pit crew. 258. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, bullshit by Gordon. If they are gonna park Kyle for wrecking a championship contender (Hornaday) last year, then they need to be consistent and park Gordon for this. Sorry Gordon fans, but it's the truth. 259. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Kyle Busch had done that people would have been calling for his head. 260. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) S Bomb by Brian Pattie. 261. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon just pulled a Kyle Busch at Texas last year. Way to take out a championship contender because of light contact. All respect lost. Go F#$k yourself Gordon! 262. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's hoping Jeff Gordon blows up and crashes every race from now on until he retires. 263. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Cjs, I was wrong, you were right. Jeff Gordon is D-O-N-E. He is W-A-S-H-E-D U-P. 264. John Royal posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon can go to Finch. 265. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Ban him for life. 266. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon should be suspended for next week. That was easily the most blatant cheap shot I have ever seen in watching NASCAR fro 26 years. Not only that but Clint Bowyer still had semi realistic shot at winning the championship. Jeff Gordon also had no regard for the Championship leader as it happened right in front of him. He could have in one move put his teammate Jimmie Johnson right back in the hunt. That to me should be punished big time. If NASCAR can park Busch, Harvick and others for garbage like that then Jeff Gordon needs parked for the season. I was starting to feel for Gordon and kind of chear for him after the things that have gone against him this year, but after today I have lost all respect for him and he'll never gain it back. 267. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a bunch of idiots at RCR. They said they passed the line before the caution, but they clearly weren't even close. lol 268. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR should have thrown the caution right away. Big loser here was the #20 who was the innocent bystander. 269. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, shut up Gustafson. 270. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to fail 4-time, way to fail. Not even Kurt Busch would pull something like that. "Yeah, bullshit by Gordon. If they are gonna park Kyle for wrecking a championship contender (Hornaday) last year, then they need to be consistent and park Gordon for this. Sorry Gordon fans, but it's the truth." I wouldn't bet ten bucks on NASCAR parking a hendrick driver for anything, but an example definitely needs to be made of four time like one was made of shrub last year. 271. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh god, he's tweeting. 272. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!! HE'S LIKE 50 FEET AWAY FROM THE LINE AT LEAST!!!! LOL!!!! 273. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I don't know about the rest of you, but I lost a lot if not all my respect I had for Gordon. Granted he was never a favorite of mine, but I always thought highly of him. But now that's been demolished. 274. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So wrecking someone on purpose after being wrecked out of 5th place makes him "washed up"? This isn't the first time someone wrecked someone out of the championship (even though Clint was way out of it anyways). I think you guys are being way too irrational on this. It's not like Jeff has made a career out of wrecking cars. Give me a break. 275. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) i would park gordon from next week's race, and not even let him be at the track to participate in post-chase media stuff, etc. i also would park danica for wrecking hornish. 276. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I refuse to judge Gordon's actions until I have seen video of them. 277. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer is going to get a lot more applause next race. 278. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ten times worse than what Kyle Busch did last year. 279. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Prediction: If RCR wins todays race it will be their last cup win for at least a decade. 280. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, what I'm saying is that if they are gonna park Kyle for the Hornaday deal last year, then they need to park Gordon for this. Hornaday was a championship contender, Bowyer was a championship contender. They need to be consistent with their rulings, as a bunch of us have stated on here multiple times before. As for Gordon being washed up, I don't know about that. 281. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ten times worse than what Kyle Busch did last year." Are your serious?! Kyle wrecked Hornaday UNDER CAUTION. Can't get any worse than that. 282. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The first incident was hard racing. Jeff tried to turn him once and wrecked himself. Then he ended up turning him head on into the wall collecting Joey Logano and Aric Almirola. Completely ridiculous on the part of Jeff Gordon. 283. Archie posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watching football while we're in this idiotic half hour race break, looks like the Eagles may have finally found themselves a real quarterback. 284. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So wrecking someone on purpose after being wrecked out of 5th place makes him "washed up"?" Psh, he didn't even wreck him. Bowyer's rear quarter panel got into Gordon's front end, and he lost it on his own. 285. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul it wasn't because he wrecked a championship contender it was the way he did it. Also the fact that he didn't care thatn Keselowski was right there who was innocent in all of it. 286. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Jeff was washed up, he would have been a 2 laps down in 25th place when Clint wrecked him. The fact that he was in 5th place proves he's not washed up. I know you're upset dude, but don't say something so stupid just because you're mad. 287. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The first incident was hard racing. Jeff tried to turn him once and wrecked himself. Then he ended up turning him head on into the wall collecting Joey Logano and Aric Almirola. Completely ridiculous on the part of Jeff Gordon." This. 288. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe I exaggerated, but this IS at least as bad as what Kyle did last year. And yes, I thought Kyle should have been kicked out of the sport for that, as well. 289. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do feel sorry that Joey and Almirola got caught up in that, especially Joey because he was in position for a top five finish. 290. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look at the idiots rearing their heads on the track Biggest offenders today have been: 43, 10, 24 and 29 (Bowyer was pissed at him earlier) 291. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) So glad Gordon gets to end his career under such a disgrace. He will NEVER EVER pass Earnhardt historically. 292. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He lost a fan in me today. 293. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watch Newman luck into this by guys running out of fuel. 294. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only reason why this might be worse than Kyle's incident is because it took out other cars. Kyle wrecked a TRUCK driver in a TRUCK race while UNDER CAUTION on a high-speed 1.5-mile track. For that, I still think Kyle's incident was worse than this. 295. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) they parked kyle busch for wrecking a championship contender...there's no excuse for nascar if they don't park jeff gordon for wrecking a championship contender. an absolute low move by the #24 and gordon does not deserve to be at the track next week or to participate in any post-chase media events. i wouldn't let him attend the las vegas awards ceremony either. 296. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer is lucky that im not there cause I'd jump over the fence and kick his you know what. I stand behind Gordon 100% and that idiot Bowyer had it coming. I'm sick of him. 297. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica wrecks, but let's not throw the caution. F'n brilliant. 298. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They left the race green after Patrick crashed...? 299. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ridiculous crash after the checkered flag... 300. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I won't even try to defend what Jeff did, as he went well over the top, but I do defend Jeff being absolutely fed up with Bowyer, who has used Jeff to keep himself in the racetrack this year, and Jeff getting the short end of it on basically all of the occasions. 301. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a crazy race. 302. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) THERE'S A F***ING CHICANE ON THE RACE TRACK AND YOU DON'T THROW THE CAUTION?!?!?! GREAT JOB NASCAR!!! 303. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Karma is a bitch Danica. That's what you get for that shit with the #22. NASCAR doesn't throw another caution, that's terrible. 304. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AND WHAT THE f**k WAS THAT NASCAR??????????/ WHY WAS THERE NO CAUTION??? I UNDERSTAND IF JOHNSON OR JUNIOR IS LEADING BUT NO ONE WANTS TO SEE HARVICK WIN WHO CARES IF HE RUNS OUT OF FUEL???? 305. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to butcher the holy hell out of the ending to that race NASCAR. You leave it green when it should be a caution and go yellow when it should be green. OMG do I even want to watch this sport moving forward? 306. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What an absolutely disgraceful way to end the race. John Darby, Robin Pemberton, Brian France, screw you all. 307. dUDE gUY posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR is officially retarded. 308. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big Bill France must be turning over in his grave, what a shame. 309. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What was Danica thinking? She was WRECKED why stay on the freaking track? 310. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle lost the race, Harvick didn't win it. Kyle had no business restarting on the inside on that restart. 311. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I won't even try to defend what Jeff did, as he went well over the top, but I do defend Jeff being absolutely fed up with Bowyer, who has used Jeff to keep himself in the racetrack this year, and Jeff getting the short end of it on basically all of the occasions." I agree with everything you said, Mr. X. Look, I'm not defending Jeff, and quite frankly I'm disgusted he would do that because that's a move unclassy drivers (including those with 7 championships) make. But I stood by Jeff through thick and thin, and I will continue to stand by him now. Also, if you're no longer a fan of his after today, then you were never a true fan of his. We don't need bandwagon fans like you hanging around anyway. 312. John Royal posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the hell did I just watch? 313. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR is seriously lucky no one is DEAD. That was an absolutely foolish call. 314. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Burton wrecks Danica. I'm not completely ruling out RCR team orders here. I might be sick to my stomach. The good news? Brad gets through it, and will be rewarded with a championship next week if he just has a solid race with no problems. 315. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Screw you Dave#38. It's not like he wrecks ppl every week. I woulda wreck Bowyer harder sorry don't care. 316. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) BON GORDON you are ridiculous if you truely believe that garbage. 317. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR butchered the finish. Shocker. 318. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) there was oil on the track that was what caused the wreck! watkins glen round 2. seriously, fire everone from brian france down the the janitors that sweep the floors at the tracks and start over. and srcrew you bon gordon! jeff is a 20 year veteran, bowyer might have started it but jeff should not have pulled that move. that's a move that immature jerks like kyle busch and kevin harvick would pull, not a move that a 4 time champion should have pulled. 319. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprisingly okay with Harvick winning. I don't know why since I was bashing him yesterday, but I'm not as upset as I thought I'd be. 320. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "I won't even try to defend what Jeff did, as he went well over the top, but I do defend Jeff being absolutely fed up with Bowyer, who has used Jeff to keep himself in the racetrack this year, and Jeff getting the short end of it on basically all of the occasions." Martinsville: Got pushed into turn one by Newman, and ends up hitting Gordon Here: Hard racing, Gordon fails at wrecking him and spins himself. Yeah, that Bowyer guy is a dick! 321. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's called payback. Gordon is a man not a machine. Dale Sr did it many times, Petty, Pearson, Stewart, Yarborough have all done it too. Gordon doesnt need to put up with that crap. Bowyer better watch his back. 322. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also Martinsville two weeks ago, Gordon and Bowyer were racing hard, and some contact was made and Jeff lost several spots because of it, in the late laps. They bounced off eachother several times, and Gordon paid the price. 323. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You'd have to be an asshole to quit being a Jeff fan over this. Dale Earnhardt did stuff unprovoked all the time. It's the mystique. When someone feels offended, they react that way. Football players are bigger assholes when they score TDs than Jeff was today. 324. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Kevin. No congrats for Childress, because I keep losing respect for him with each passing race. I'm interested to see what CJS has to say about all of this. Again, I just think Gordon should have some type of punishment for this blatant retaliation. If they are gonna penalize Kyle for blatant retaliation in a Truck race, then they need to do something to Gordon for blatantly retaliating against a championship contender and taking out innocent bystanders in a Cup race. It's just what I think should happen. Also, I was never one of the ones who said anything about Gordon being washed up. Let me just clarify that. 325. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah! Wreck the guy who didn't do anything! Holy shit, you're thick headed! 326. 44andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ new car for Reutimann, new name. Also: Gordon needs to be parked next week. Full stop. Not only did he blatantly wreck a contender for questionable payback, but he took out /two/ innocent victims doing it (and nearly took out the championship /leader/ as well). 327. Archie posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Always thought that Gordon was pretty much a puss; sucks for Bowyer but I don't mind seeing some payback when it's deserved. People conveniently forget the past when it suits them to do so. 328. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so Kesolowski has a 20 point lead? so top 17 and he wins 329. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All you haters act like Gordon wrecks ppl every week. I hope Gordon never pits up with anyones crap. That's why I could never be a race car driver cause I'd kill someone on the track for sure. 330. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is at least the 2nd race this year that Kyle has lost because of a bad mistake by him. 331. startandparkfan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) :( Jeff why! bad move by him, but Bowyer just made it worse. Still a fan of 24 though. 332. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer wasn't gonna win a championship. Sorry. Boys have at it. No one parked Burton for blatenly wrecking Gordon. Don't park Gordon. No way. 333. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Martinsville: Got pushed into turn one by Newman, and ends up hitting Gordon Here: Hard racing, Gordon fails at wrecking him and spins himself. Yeah, that Bowyer guy is a dick!" Bowyer may have been pushed by Newman, but he chose to make it 3-wide while being pushed going into the corner. Plus, he got into him at Martinsville a few weeks ago and cost Gordon a top five finish. If you've raced as long as Gordon has, and been routinely taken advantage of over the last few years, you'd be pretty upset too. It wasn't the right thing to do, but sometimes you have to stand up for yourself if you feel taken advantage of by other drivers. Gordon looked silly because he wrecked himself too, but the message was clear. Ricky Craven explained it beautifully on ESPN. This sport was built on drivers settling scores on the race track, and drivers have a long memory and keep these incidents in their memory bank. Remember at Martinsville a couple weeks ago? Clint delivered an interview and Gordon didn't, which was a sign that he wasn't forgiving Clint. If you guys get a chance, look up Craven's talking points when ESPN uploads it to YouTube if you haven't seen it yet. I think he explained this incident perfectly. 334. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) This was one of the craziest ends of all time to a Nascar race. No one will ever forget this race. Why does it always seem Childress comes out on the better end of crazy finishes? Or Harvick I should say. Who would have thought a lame duck driver would compete this well. Out of no where. Harvick has been a 10th-15th place car all year at best on the average. Childress fights for his drivers no matter what the circumstance. Very unclassy move by Gordon. Just ridiculous. It wasn't that bad for him to take out Bowyer. He flattened his tire because of himself not because of Bowyer. There were championship contenders around him Bowyer and the championship leader Keselowski, he didn't care who was around him. He's frustrated and I believe he needs to retire. I said it not long ago, but he needs to do something else. He has had his day and he is no longer top dog at his company and hasn't been since 2005. Time to call it a career.... What makes me sick is ESPN's approach and Gordon's former teammate Ricky Craven taking Gordon's side... Bowyer would kill Gordon in a fight. Marty Smith reported that Gordon got "bulldogged" by a Bowyer crew member. I really hope that happened. I will say this... After last week at Texas everyone was about to give up on Nascar because of the finish and debacle on their part. This is the best possible thing that could have happened to give them a boost. So many storylines... Gordon vs. Bowyer The Almight JJ hitting the wall and being outraced by BK in a championship run And Harvick winning after saying he's leaving RCR for Stewart-Hass in 2014. In Nascar always expect the unexpected 335. Slamhereasy posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint Bowyer is the biggest joke of a driver in the series. Too bad Gordon wasn't given a chance to knock him out. Seriously, besides Carl Edwards there probably isn't a more insufferable driver than Clint 336. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "All you haters act like Gordon wrecks ppl every week." And you're acting like Bowyer has actually done something to Gordon when he got bumped by Newman into Gordon and Martinsville and was racing hard here. Point is that Gordon wrecked out a championship contender (and nearly took out the points leader as well) for no reason. "People conveniently forget the past when it suits them to do so." "No one parked Burton for blatenly wrecking Gordon. Don't park Gordon." LOOKIE HERE! PEOPLE CONVENIENTLY FORGET that Boys Have At It didn't start until the next year! Oh the hypocrisy! 337. What?? posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Team orders: 24 wreck in front of the 2 and hope that he caught up in the wreck. Help keep 48 close in points. Hendrick 48, 24 have all been cheaters! 338. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I'll say one thing we can all agree on: This race managed to piss virtually everybody on here off. It's quite rare when a race manages to actually do that. I think I'll be taking my leave for the time being to cool off. 339. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Disturbing fact for me as a Kyle fan: This was the 10th time in his career that he led over 200 laps, but he's only won 4 of them. And of the 6 races that he hasn't won, 4 of the 6 were his fault for losing and the other 2 were fuel mileage losses. 340. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) keselowski needs to finish 15th or better no matter what jimmie johnson does. next week's race will be historic, as it will be (hopefully, if there's any justice in the world) the first race cup race without jeff gordon since the 1992 finale. let's hope regan gets to run the #24 next week and a.j. gets another shot in the #51. 341. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff, that was completely classless. Head on? Really?" 1986 Miller High Life 400 342. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1. Jimmie Johnson 2350 2. Brad Keselowski 2348 3. Clint Bowyer 2249 Under my points system Kasey Kahne falls 2 points short of the cut off and is eliminated. Do to math Clint Bowyer made the Top 3, however, is still out of the championship hunt. Jimmie Johnson carries a 2 point lead over Brad Keselowski into the season final. 343. Yea! posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know that your a cheater when you got to ask the president of the united states for a pardon. 344. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love Jeff Gordon. He's my hero and he's such a nice human. Yes his move was questionable by some but I will stand by his payback. No way does Gordon need to retire, no way should he be parked, nothing but probation and a fine should come out of this. Gordon is more like Earnhardt than some want to admit. You mess with Gordon he'll bite back. PERIOD! He deserves everyone's respect including Bowyer. Bowyer is a nice guy but he took advantage of Gordon at both Martinsville races. Hey that's racing but so are paybacks. 345. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.11.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really think Nascar is over doing this "brawl". They have more security outside the hauler than most police forces use for hostage situations. 346. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, here's my take on what happened near the finish. First, Clint Bowyer got into Jeff Gordon not once, but twice, fist getting into his left rear, then into his left front. The second contact tells me that there was intent behind it, so there may have been somthing prior to that between those two today that we missed. Now there is no defending what happened in turn four, though why there was no mention of the two innocent bystanders (Joey Logano and Aric Alimrola) that were also involved, I don't know, since they were the real victims of that incident. I can understand wanting to at back Bowyer, esecially since this is at least the third race this year where they've had issues. And Bowyer has been getting under the skin of quite a number of drivers this year. remember racing Denny Hamlin real aggresively early in the race at Martinsville just a couple of weeks ago, and he's gotten under the skin of quite a few others, as well. But hat incident shows that even the calmest of competitors can be pushed too far, because for Jeff Gordon to retaliate like that, knocking three other cars out of the race, he had to have had enough of what happened, and in his mind, a line had to be drawn. If h wanted to do that, what he should have done is to let Bowyer pass him on the outside, and then spin him out to get the message across. I think a number of drivers are privately happy to see Clint Bowyer have that happen to him, though Joey Logano and Aric Almirola certainly didn't deserve it. Now, as for what happened at the end of the race. This shows why I say that NASCAR can't enforce any of it's rules correctly, because why the caution didn't come out for Danica's crash, I'll never know, but then she got back going after the leaders had taken the white flag, so NASCAR felt compelled to let the race finish. However, I disagree that oil caused that last incident entirely, though it did have something to do with it. What really caused that last incident was that one car cut another off exiting the final turn, and one problem at a track like Phoenix or IMS is that, if a car spins with traffic behind it, it usally ends up in a pile-up because there are walls on both sides, and very litle room to maneuver, and theat was why the crash was as bad as it was. 347. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) that would be kinda full-circle, first race was 1992 which will always be talked about (not going into detail cause its been discussed on more than one occasion) and also ironicly he crashed out in that race, so 20 years later, parked but lets use that logic, in 1992 we all know that was Pettys final race, Gordons first, could that be also when Jimmie (Petty) fails to Brad (Gordon) the legend falls to the n00b? and we all know what happened to gordon over the next 20 years does that mean Brad will sit out the 2032 championship race to be won by Darell Wallace IV? what did I just say? 348. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And all of you posters need to man up and show your real post names. I'm not afraid to speak my mind. 349. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ROFLMFAO!!! Bowyer's crew acted like inner-city thugs and promptly mugged Jeff Gordon. Its not everyday you see a multi-time NASCAR champion get jumped by crew-members on national tv. 350. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You'd have to be an asshole to quit being a Jeff fan over this. Dale Earnhardt did stuff unprovoked all the time. It's the mystique. When someone feels offended, they react that way. Football players are bigger assholes when they score TDs than Jeff was today." Great statement NicoRosbergFan. If you're giving up on Jeff over something like this that Earnhardt did all the time, you were either never a true fan of his or you are overreacting. The fact is is that Jeff had had enough with Clint and settled it on the race track. I don't think he should have done it, but knowing Jeff, he wouldn't have done it unless he felt it was justified based on how Clint has raced him this year. I know a lot of people are going to say "Well Ryan Newman torpedoed Clint into Jeff at Martinsville", but that's just the stuff you see on TV. You don't see the way they race each other every lap when the camera isn't on them. I know at Martinsville a few weeks ago, Clint got into Jeff and cost him a shot at a win, or at least a top five finish by getting into him late in the race. Clint gave an interview where he mentioned it, Gordon didn't. That's usually a sign that Gordon was mad and was going to pay Clint back if necessary. And he felt justified to do so today after they made contact twice that put Jeff in the wall. It's all well and good if a career wrecker like Earnhardt does it because he was a "blue collar race car driver from the South", but apparently it's not okay for a career clean racer who has been on a passive streak over the past five years like Gordon. And for the record, I don't think Kyle should have been parked for the Cup race at Texas last year. Quite frankly I think he should have been parked after flipping off a NASCAR official at Texas the year before because you have to respect the officials and the sanctioning body. I think NASCAR overreacted last year because of fan outrage, and unjustifiably parked Kyle as a result. 351. jabber1990 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SEAL team 6 will have to drop in and protect Gordon 352. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) You settle scores by giving them a tap in the LEFT rear in the corner, backing them into the fence. To just turn someone head on in the middle of a green run, destroying two other cars in the process is not settling a score. It is being a low life. Glad NASCAR fans can finally see the real Jeff Gordon, a product of a system and a spoiled brat. And how about that law enforcement brigade he had? Did he look like a p***y or what? And I know a lot of people will say what about Dale at Richmond in '86? There was no excuse for that either, but at least he didn't putter around like a little worm, wait on Darrel, then turn him. In was truly in the heat of battle he made a dispicible move. No excuse then, no excuse now. The difference is that was when the Earnhardt dynasty launched. He wasn't a bitter old man at the end of his career hanging on when he should have hung it up long ago. As I said, cjs was definitely right and I was dead wrong. Gordon is done. That was the action of a man with nothing left. 353. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, but Biffle cut off Kurt after he slid in the oil, and right in front of them Newman spun in the oil all by himself. And the second contact between Jeff and Clint (right before Jeff hit the wall) looked like it was instigated by Jeff before Jeff got into the wall. I don't think I've been this upset at the end of a race since Watkins Glen (even more than Richmond when Kyle missed the Chase). Kyle blew this race. He's run way too well in the Chase to not win. However, what I am even more disappointed in than Kyle is NASCAR and their handling of the finish. I don't think much more needs to be said about that. 354. the Great Dave posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Earnhardt never wrecked anyone out of revenge like Jeff did, Earnhardt was more like Keselowski then he was like what Jeff did today. Also here are the Sponsors for the race #16 3M / Filtrete #30 Swan Energy #39 Quicken Loans / Military Tribute #99 Fastenal / GearWrench 355. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the record cjs, I did mention how Joey and Almirola were unnecessarily taken out as a result of Gordon's payback. I don't have a problem with the payback itself so much as how Gordon paid him back. It's not right to hook someone's right rear and turn them head-on into the outside wall because that's a move unclassy drivers do, such as a certain 7-time champion. 356. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NO ONE tried to justify what Kyle Busch did to Ron Hornady. But let someone like Gordon do something similar, and all of a sudden you hear thousands of attempts to make it sound like what he did was reasonable. It's all about who you are and your fan appeal, not what you actually do! 357. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks, Paul. I in no way defend Jeff. First thing I yelled to my mother was "Jeff just pulled a jerkcrap move!" I say probation and fines fly from NASCAR, but no suspensions. 358. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Read about the Bobby Allison versus Curtis Turner race. That was the most blatant violence in NASCAR history, and there were no suspensions. 359. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think if they parked Kyle last year then they should park Jeff. If they hadn't parked Kyle then I would say don't park Jeff. But NASCAR never follows precedents that they set. 360. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) As for Brad, those last two incidents were great for him, but bad for the sport. I hate it had to turn out like that. What was that I said about the breaks finally coming his way? They happened. Anything can happen so I'm not gonna celebrate yet, but I am SO SO proud of him, Paul Wolfe, The Captain, and that entire band of brothers on The Blue Deuce. To be in this position just 2 years removed from that 2010 season is insane and speaks to their character. Happy to have jumped on his bandwagon so early, rode it through the good NWide times, weathered the rough (putting it mildly) '10 campaign, and going through the Summer of Brad '11, and now to be here, one race left, needing to just avoid disaster to be the Sprint Cup champ (easier said then done). What a ride! 361. Smiff_2 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's too much to talk about, so all I'm gonna say is "WOW!" HELL YEAH!!! 15th or better next week!!! (Oh, and it looks like *somebody* is getting CELEBRATORY sex tonight!!!! xD) 362. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think NASCAR overreacted last year because of fan outrage, and unjustifiably parked Kyle as a result." This is a good point Paul. But we have been talking endlessly on here about Nascar's inconsistency as a sanctioning body. I just think that if they want to be taken seriously as rule enforcers, then they need to be consistent and park Gordon for Homestead. It's the same thing we were talking about last week when Jimmie beat Brad to the line on the restart. They penalized Elliott Sadler at Indy for the same thing, but they didn't to Jimmie. So I just think that with this whole Gordon issue, they need to avoid that inconsistency and make it clear as to whether or not these paybacks and stuff are okay. 363. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) cjs3872 "Clint Bowyer got into Jeff Gordon not once, but twice, fist getting into his left rear, then into his left front. The second contact tells me that there was intent behind it, so there may have been somthing prior to that between those two today that we missed" Are you kidding me?? So Bowyer put his car in reverse and hit Gordon in the left front?? That's not how it works buddy. Very dumb comment. How the hell did Bowyer hit Gordon with his left rear when the 24 was behind him Joey Logano just said on twitter that growing up Gordon was the best driver, but now he has lost all respect for him FINISHED 364. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's all about who you are and your fan appeal, not what you actually do!" Exactly, but it doesn't apply to this. For example, why was it okay for Earnhardt to wreck Terry Labonte in front of the field at Bristol '99, but Carl Edwards got crucified for doing the same to Brad Keselowski at Gateway '10? Because Earnhardt and Brad have larger fanbases than Terry and Carl. It is all about who you are, but it doesn't just apply to this. Both examples I gave included a last lap wreck for the lead. Both times the leader got turned coming to the checkered flag, and both times a field of cars ran into them. Yet, it seems okay that Dale did what he did by his fans, but it wasn't not okay what Carl did according to Brad fans (and we have one person who fits both descriptions). Carl and Jeff haven't made a career out of intentionally wrecking people, and don't deserve the criticisms they have received. Earnhardt on the other hand seems to get a pass because...he's Dale Earnhardt. There shouldn't be a double-standard on this issue, yet it appears to be that way. 365. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_2, does your girlfriend have any friends as cool as she sounds, because this race pissed a lot of people off. 366. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan, do you know how illogical you sound? Clint hit Jeff in the left rear, and then hit him in the left front because when a car passes another car, they go from the rear of the car to the front of the car. Think a little bit. 367. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A dirty move is a dirty move, no if's and's or but's. All criticism is valid. 368. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer just talking on ESPN Says he was content with where he was at when Gordon slipped... Gordon flattened his own tire when he tried to spin Bowyer out the first time. Gordon really needs to go, and he has nothing left. Call it career. Short of a 100 race wins You don't do that to people who is in the championship hunt. How would he feel if Jeff Burton would have hit him in '97 at Atlanta for retaliation for what happened at Darlington that year and cost him the title? It's ok though when he does it to people, but not when he gets it done to him Classic Jeff 369. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano is just mad cause he got involved. He was never a true Gordon fan then. 370. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Gordon never rolls over for anyone ever ever! 371. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Controversy fuels interest. Let's be real here, there is plenty of blame to go around. What Gordon did was excessive, and its the second time in three years (Burton, Texas '10) his retaliation has been over the cliff, but for goodness sakes over-emotional responses are apart of the business. If this is where the big boys play, then have at it in spades. From the owners perspective, Logano and Almirola were innocent bystanders as were Menard, Mark Martin, Newman and Kurt Busch after She who will not be named oiled up the track after Burton dumped her. Burton probably retaliated against her as well. As for parking Gordon, Kyle Busch's dumping of Hornaday at Texas in 2011 was mild compared to today's actions. Simply put, it is completely justified for Homestead. Jimmie might very well win his first race at Homestead, but if Brad finishes 15th or better, it will not matter. Still, I believe Bad Brad has a 65% chance of winning the championship. The #2 team's approach should be the same as Johnson's at Homestead from 2006-2009, meaning a solid 5th-10th place finish. 372. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon should be suspended. Such a stupid ass move on his part. 373. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Okay. I have had a little time to cool off and think about this in a more mature manner. It's probably not a good idea for me, someone who is self-admittedly more than a little hyper, to post when I get hyped up because I can get a little frenzied and crazy, admittedly. I've been a Jeff Gordon fan all my life. Nearly all my life. One of my first memories is seeing Jeff Gordon battling at Dale Earnhardt at...I cannot quite remember the race. I think it was North Wilkesboro in 1995...probably the First Union 400. I don't know how exactly I became a Gordon fan...I don't quite remember how that happened, exactly. Basically I've been a Gordon fan about as long as I can physically remember. And I will admit...I was more than a little rash with what I said here, I can admit that. Having been a Gordon fan all my life, it would probably be impossible for me to stop pulling for him in some way or form, so it is rather unlikely I would suddenly stop being a fan. Again...Not the best idea for me to post something when I'm at my most hyped up. Having said that...I still cannot defend what Jeff did. I can fully understand him being mad...who could blame him for being mad? But he reacted WAY out of line here. He did something right out of Kyle Busch's handbook in this race. Dumping Clint Bowyer and almost changing the course of the championship...that's something Kyle Busch would do. I have never seen Gordon go quite that far before. I can understand him bumping Robby Gordon under caution at New Hampshire back in '01. I can understand him giving Matt Kenseth a shove after the '06 Food City 500 where Kenseth spun him out on the last lap. I can understand him getting angry at Jeff Burton at Texas back in 2010. But this...I can't understand and defend. I have to be bluntly honest. I still do really think NASCAR ought to be consistent and make him sit out for the last race of the year. If they wish to be consistent. So overall, I will still remain a Jeff Gordon fan...but I am SEVERELY disappointed in what he did. He should know better than THAT. What pisses me off even more is the actual finish. NASCAR let the race go green after Danica crashed on the next to last lap...and let about 10 cars crash heavily because of Danica leaking oil on the track. What the hell is wrong with NASCAR? How could they have done that? By far, that's what pissed me off the most this season in ANY race. What if someone had gotten hurt in that crash? What would NASCAR have done then? Overall, I'll just say...this is probably THE NASCAR season that has pissed me, and probably everyone else, off the most. 374. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think if they parked Kyle last year then they should park Jeff. If they hadn't parked Kyle then I would say don't park Jeff. But NASCAR never follows precedents that they set." 18fan, you nailed it. In my eyes, Nascar made their bed when they parked Kyle last year. So for them to not park Gordon right here would be completely out of order, in my opinion. As to whether or not I see it actually happening, I don't know. Remember, Hendrick is supposedly good buddies with Nascar (specifically the Appellate Court guy that got Chad's suspension from Daytona overturned), so that may play into it. Also, on Nascar Victory Lane, they just had interviews with Clint and Jeff. I must say, Clint handled his interview much much better than Jeff did. Jeff sounded like he was on the verge of tears. 375. Sean posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "LOOKIE HERE! PEOPLE CONVENIENTLY FORGET that Boys Have At It didn't start until the next year! Oh the hypocrisy!" Boys Have At It started in 2010. Burton wrecked Gordon under caution at Texas in that year's chase, the same thing Kyle did at Texas last year to Hornaday. People were outraged about Kyle (because of his history) and let Burton's slide (because of his history), and Kyle got suspended when Burton didn't. At the time, I was against Kyle's suspension (I DON'T think that was even the worst thing he did in a race - the worst thing he did was punt Casey Mears under red flag conditions but I don't remember which race it was - Charlotte in 2006 maybe?). I figured there would be a similar scenario when something would happen and that would be setting a brand new precedent. Since they have set that precedent, Gordon should be suspended for one race weekend. He should be, but he won't. Having said that, I can't think of a long-running top driver EVER in Cup that I would consider "clean". I could come up with really dumb/obnoxious incidents like this for almost any driver. Pretty much every driver has done something suspension-worthy. Gordon's had two such moves against him (Ricky Rudd at Charlotte in '94 and Burton at Texas in 2010), although he's probably given worse than he's received (Gordon did a lot of obnoxious shit in the late '90s while simultaneously playing the born-again Christian). I would lean towards suspending him (as well as suspending guys like Rudd and Burton for those rather ugly incidents) as long as it's a consistent precedent from now on. Since NASCAR will never set a consistent precedent, I guess I'd say none of them should have been suspended. It doesn't affect my opinion of Gordon as a driver (I still have him and Johnson in my top ten regardless), but it does affect my PERSONAL opinion of him, not that I've ever been a Gordon fan... And I'm with DSFF on the "washed up" thing. There are definitely in many drivers' careers some jump-the-shark moment where they just can't be taken seriously anymore. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: wrecking Brian Vickers in front of the field at the 2009 Daytona 500. I predicted shortly thereafter that that was a turning point for him and he wouldn't win again. I was wrong and he's had two pretty good seasons now, but it's still hard to say he's been VERY relevant since. At least not like he was before... Jeff Burton: the incident with Gordon at Texas. I predicted he would never win again and expected him to never be relevant again. I was right (probably, unless he gets really lucky at a plate race). Brian Vickers: okay, that's how I felt after last year's Martinsville/Phoenix races. As it turns out I was very wrong, and he had his best (partial) season ever, but I don't think any of us expected this. Jeff Gordon: today. He was teeter-tottering on the edge of irrelevancy for a while now and this basically cements it. If he gets suspended, I don't expect him to win again ever. Hell, he might as well retire. What else can he do? Win at Homestead and Kentucky? That won't happen. Win a pole next year to break David Pearson's consecutive seasons with a pole? 1. Who gives a shit? 2. I hope not. Break Ricky Rudd's consecutive starts streak? Well, that's over if he's suspended. I still think he's a top ten driver but he defined an era where NASCAR itself jumped the shark with drivers no longer paying their dues, getting into top equipment after proving very little, having championship-caliber equipment from day one, and inspiring a generation of drivers who were (in general) even more annoying. I still say most of the rookies who followed him are worse (Harvick, Hamlin, Edwards, Johnson, Newman, Kurt Busch) but this was bad... Remember, people took Jeff Burton seriously in 2010 (he was in the chase when he caused that). After that happened, I didn't. I think the same deal is likely to happen here. Only Gordon might still make chases again because there are so few cars capable of making them now... Oh, and I still think Gordon putting Ken Schrader on his roof at Talladega in '95 when they were teammates (giving him a black eye) and him wrecking Morgan Shepherd out of his last good run at Atlanta in '98 (which effectively put the Stavola Brothers out of business because a good run could have given them sponsorship especially in that era) were worse than this. But this was not good. 376. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, when I mentioned about nobody mentioning about Logano and Almirola being the real victims of what happened between Gordon and Bowyer, I was referring to those on the broadcast, not those posting, because others here mentioned Logano and Almirola. And I, by the way, in no way defend Gordon's actions, because the way he caused that wreck was uncalled for, and believe that he should have let Bowyer pass him, and then spin him out, so that no other car would be involved. That's the one thing I hate about paybacks like that, because completely innocent parties may get involved, and two were. And if I were NASCAR, I would sit Gordon out of the last race, but they've got a completely different problem on their hands, and it's one that I've called them out for numerous times, and that is the officiating. I have said that they should get rid of the guys they have offiiating the race, and put someone like Wally Dallenbach, Jr. in there, but something needs to be done about the officiating. I'm more upset about that than I am the late-race incident betwen Gordon and Bowyer. And as for Joey Logano's comment about losing all respect for Gordon. I remember Gordon himself saying that very same thing about Jeff Burton after their run-in at Texas, yet they seem to have the same level of respect for each other as they've always had, so I think this will pass. The plain truth is that Bowyer has ben risking something like this happening to him all season, and it finally came his way. He and Gordon have had run-ins in at least three different races this year, and finally Gordon did what all competitors must do in a siutuation like this, and that is to draw a line in the sand. He did it the wrong way, I think we can all agree on that, but he had to make a statement that he wasn't goiun to be pused around any more, especially by the same driver. But when you combine all he's been through this year, with the fact that Bowyer has continuously roughed him up, and you knew something like this would happen. It was just a question of when and where. It's just sad that two others were involved in the payback. And I'll say this. I'm not sure he retaliates the way he did if it's any other driver in the field, But when the same driver continuously does the same thing, action has to be taken. It was the wrong action taken at the wrong time, but action had to be taken. The one knock on Gordon had always been that you could push him around, and selected drivers have been taking those liberties with him for years, and finally he fought back, although I'm not sure that's the right analagy at this moment. I just wonder if Gordon, a driver that had been a toothless tiger for about five years, has finally gotten his teeth back. 377. Sean posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'm not even gonna talk about that finish. Anything I'd say would probably be hypocritical since I thought the Watkins Glen finish was the best in Cup in the past five years although PROBABLY that was poorly officiated too. Having said that, Watkins Glen is the only race I have any kind of fond memory of this season. I like that NASCAR was allowing for long green-flag runs at the start of the season but even that seems to have fizzled. IndyCar this year was so much better (and has only 4 drivers I dislike, as opposed to the 20 or so I dislike in Cup), although it seems like EVERY series is settling for gimmicks these days to appeal to the attention deficit impaired. 378. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race had raw emotion, period. No manufactured debris cautions at the end. Jeff lost his head, Bowyer's crew did their best thug impersonations, Kyle coughed up another sure win, Harvick rose up when it mattered, Danica ticked off Jeff Burton and many fans for altering the final lap, Jimmie blew a tire and may have lost a 6th championship, but don't sleep on it. 379. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Petty brought up a lot of interesting points on SPEED. In case you missed it, here are a few things he had to say: - NASCAR isn't going to do a damn thing because Robin Pemberton said in his interview that "It's hard to tell whose fault it was (regarding the first incident)" - Clint Bowyer put himself in that position by trying to pass a disgruntled Gordon on the inside after he already wrecked him, so Clint deserves some of the blame. - NASCAR did this to themselves by not throwing the caution after Jeff hit the wall. That last point I think is why NASCAR shouldn't punish Gordon. They did this to themselves. They thought nothing about throwing a caution for phantom debris during the race, but they didn't throw a caution for Jeff getting into the wall and limping around the race track afterwards. If NASCAR had thrown the caution flag, Jeff would have gone to pit road or behind the wall and nothing would have happened. It was NASCAR's decision to allow a damaged car with a pissed off driver stay on the race track, and this is what they got. NASCAR made their bed and now they have to lay in it. Punishing Gordon only makes them look like hypocrites because they allowed this to happen by not throwing the caution with a damaged car limping around the track like that. 380. Sean posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wally Dallenbach, Jr." GREAT PICK! His father was usually the only voice of common sense in CART when he was the chief steward there while the car owners were having one CART CEO fired after another after another in the '80s and '90s (much like many of the same owners are now doing to attempt to ruin the current IndyCar series). I like Wally announcing, but he's almost WASTED there, when he seems like a good common-sense guy to officiate in either NASCAR or IndyCar... 381. b4il3y posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guess it's safe to say this..they had at it :) Looks like Gordon has pretty much had it being bumped around all year...and he finally blew up. I like this mean streak in him. Shows me he still cares about winning, and still cares about the sport. I'm not a big Gordon fan, but the respect factor keeps going up. Bowyer's crew got rowdy and went after him...not the best move but had me screaming at the house, "oh man here we go!!!". I know alot of people on here get pretty hot headed. which tells me how awesome the fanbase is. Fans should argue for their favorite driver! Let it loose! BTW...Harvick won the race lol. 382. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh shut up Sean. I'm gonna say what Kenny Wallace and Kyle Petty said on RaceDay. Jeff Gordon doesn't care what you think, or what I think, or what Bowyer or NASCAR thinks. He doesn't regret it and would do it again if he had to in a heartbeat. And Gordon not relevant, Ha! Still a chase driver and every driver but Stewart and Johnson could only dream of getting the wins and numbers Jeff Gordon has. Screw all the haters. GO GORDON! 383. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think it was Phoenix in 2006 when Kyle ran into Mears under the red flag. Charlotte of that year is when Kyle threw his HANS device at Mears. 384. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 366 Paul What are you talking about? When Gordon went to Bowyers outside going into turn 3 and tried to take him out but missed he hit Bowyers right bumper which caused Gordon's left tire to go down and wreck. cjs3872 tried to say that Bowyer "hit" Gordon's left front when Gordon was the one that drove to Bowyer's outside. How could Bowyer hit Gordon's left front with his right rear blatantly? Gordon "hit" him, not Bowyer "hitting" Gordon when that happened... Think a little bit... Or are you another delusional JGForeverFan who can do no wrong? 385. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's just what really bugs me. They'll throw cautions for absolutely nothing out there on the track and then when there's an actual good reason for a caution right at the end of the race...they don't throw one. I will admit that Watkins Glen finish between Brad and Marcos was pretty epic, but that was still pretty screwed up on NASCAR's part to not throw the caution there. I am not a Kyle Busch fan and I never will be, but even *I* feel a little bad for what happened to him there. That's pretty much one of the worst ways you can lose a race. And then this race happens and leaves an even more sour feeling in my mouth. It's like NASCAR is deliberately trying to piss off and chase away all of it's more serious fans in favor of the large numbers of "casual" fans. It REALLY seems that way to me. 386. Sean posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "And Gordon not relevant, Ha! Still a chase driver" And Jeff Burton was still a chase driver when he did what he did TO Gordon in 2010 (something I was outraged about and surprisingly few others were). It's not like I NEVER stand up for Gordon. But I do see a parallel between what Burton did there and what Gordon did here. Burton has not been relevant since. If Gordon IS relevant in the next two seasons (like Burton wasn't), I'll admit I was wrong. 387. b4il3y posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On Sean's comment...yeah he'd do it again. Ladies and Gentlemen, I do believe Jeff's had enough. I wouldn't put it past him that he gets totally refocused for next year, and makes a strong run for the championship. Seems like for a few years he's been racing with a chip on him to keep up his winning ways...which he has done but not the way he would want to. NASCAR has done one thing...I'll be watching Homestead next week. 388. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's like NASCAR is deliberately trying to piss off and chase away all of it's more serious fans in favor of the large numbers of "casual" fans. It REALLY seems that way to me." 110% 389. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speed is saying that Robin Pemberton has said that he doesn't expect any penalties for Gordon or Bowyer to come Sunday night. So that means if there are some, it will be later in the week. 390. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff sounded like he was on the verge of tears." murb, that's what happens to calm people who let their emotions get the best of them. I'm a pretty calm person (though some of my recent posts may suggest differently) and whenever I get worked up with someone or something so much, I'll sometimes be on the verge of tears because of the drastic change of emotions. I'm not surprised Clint sounded so calm because from listening to him have temper tantrums on the radio (he called Brian Pattie a "f***head" a couple weeks ago), he's used to getting worked up and is able to settle down very quickly. Brendan Gaughan did the same thing Friday night, as he was very calm in his interview after screaming at German Quiroga earlier. cjs, okay that makes more sense. It seemed like Joey and Almirola were ignored, even though they were innocent victims in that ordeal. As for Joey's Twitter comment, he said a similar thing about Rusty Wallace after Rusty called him out for wrecking a lapped car at Dover, yet has done nothing about it. I think this is just Joey being Joey. 391. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that Sean, but remember that Wally Dallenbach, Jr. is still involved in the NASCAR scene through his commentating duties, so he already knows virtually everyone involved in the sport, and he's never cared about who he might offend with his analysis, a lot like another contrversial NBC analyst named Johnny Miller. And he drove full-time for nine seasons, so his knowlkedge of what goes on in the sport, combined with the fact that he's never cared whether or not he make friends or enemies (just ask Jimmy Spencer) would make him the perfect choice as the guy that makes the decisions on raceday, in terms of officiating. That, of course, was also true of Wally, Sr., who retired in 1979 to become CART's Director of Competition. Roger McCluskey, the 1973 USAC IndyCar chanmpion, did the same thing in 1979 to become USAC's Director of Competition. 392. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's like NASCAR is deliberately trying to piss off and chase away all of it's more serious fans in favor of the large numbers of "casual" fans. It REALLY seems that way to me." Quoted for truth. 393. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) People keep talking about Earnhardt and Bristol in '99 when Labonte went really hard into the turn and he had to check up and Dale got into him. Whether you side with Dale or not the TIMING of what Gordon did today was awful... It was at the end of the race and it had championship contenders around with almost a single lap left and the next to last race of the season. Gordon DID NOT care who was around him. His ego got the best of him in that situation. I felt bad for Logano who was having one of the best races of the season, but can you imagine had that been BK who was right there in that situation? Had he been taken out with Bowyer that would have caused all kinds of chaos and havoc. Nascar really would have had their hands full then. Gordon's teammate would have benifited from something like that and that would have been a very bad situation. Gordon didn't care if it was Danica Patrick, BK, Logano, JJ... It didn't matter because he was after Bowyer. And he might have bit off more than he can chew this time. There was no need for that at that moment. The timing was horrible. He acted neglegent. And he should have to pay for that, but he won't... Regardless of positive or negative feedback Nascar needed it. They needed the shot in the arm after what happened last week and they got it. Oh yeah, Kevin Harvick won the race 394. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, seriously, I think we can all agree that no one cares what Logano's opinion is. Obviously he's gonna be mad at Gordon for taking out all those guys (and rightfully so). Also, I just read that Gordon was black flagged by Nascar for the minimum speed thing after he hit the wall on his own the first time. But instead of coming in, he ignored it and waited for Bowyer so he could pay him back. Pretty interesting. 395. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I do remember them saying Gordon was black flagged before he crashed Bowyer, actually. 396. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, what I'm saying about Gordon being on the verge of tears is that you could tell that he knew he had done wrong. At least that's what I got out of the interview. 397. GDR posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good win for Kevin. RCR has struggled with gas mileage all season but he saved all day and then beat Kyle, who is one of the best drivers I've ever seen on restarts, twice to win the race. 398. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One last post from me for a little while: Right now on Speed, they are airing that Hendrick Beyond 200 thing where they are interviewing all the Hendrick drivers and stuff. It's pretty hilarious right now to watch Jeff laughing it up and talking about the past after what happened today, lol. 399. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb Jeff Gordon stands by his choice of wrecking Bowyer. He apoligizes to Logano and all involved. Bowyer better not try and payback Gordon cause Gordon will just do it again. Im sorry everyone but Im fired up. I stand along side Jeff Gordon all the way. Jeff Gordon will race next week with little to know penalty and will be back next year just as strong as ever, I promise. 400. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan, here's what you said earlier: "Are you kidding me?? So Bowyer put his car in reverse and hit Gordon in the left front??" That's what I was responding too. It sounded to me like you were saying that it was impossible for Clint to hit Jeff in his left rear, and then his left front. For Clint to do that, all he would have to do is pass Jeff, since you reach the rear of a car before you reach the front of the car while passing them. "Or are you another delusional JGForeverFan who can do no wrong?" Have you read none of my posts? I have repeatedly stated that I don't like what Gordon did because it took out innocent victims in Logano and Almirola. Also, I wasn't defending Gordon at all in that post, so you calling me a "delusional JGForeverFan" has no relevance to the post of mine you were talking about. All I said was that it makes no sense for Clint to go in reverse in order for him to go from Gordon's left rear to Gordon's left front, since all he would have to do is stay on the gas to go from the rear of Gordon's car to the front. Just because I corrected you on an illogical explanation doesn't make me a delusional Gordon fan, especially considering how I've said repeatedly that while I understand the payback, I don't like the way he paid Clint back. 401. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan, Gordon's ego did not get the best of him at that moment. His temper was what got the best of him there. And I do agree what he did was awful, and that he could hae picked a better way to do it. And if he was visibly upset at the aftermath of what he did, it would have been for the other two teams that were involved, because he certainly didn't mean for anyone else to get involved, nor does anyone else in a payback incident like that. They're so intent on getting even with he guy he's after that h's ot aware of anyone else that might get caught up in it, and they never intend for anyone else to get involved. 402. startandparkfan posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #44- David Reutimann - No Label WatcheS Ford (Not Watcher) 403. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah it was just fine when Earnhardt wrecked Bodine for no reason other than the fact that he was a Yankee, but God forbid Gordon stand up for himself against a driver who has done him wrong several times this season. Maybe next time he'll just express himself on Twitter like Logano, and have people call him a "pushover" and lessen his legacy anyways just to keep some of you people happy. murb, I understand what you said, but my point was that Jeff was on the verge of tears because not only did he know he did something wrong, but it's not in his nature to be the bad guy and retaliate like that. He had an overwhelmingly high amount of emotions going through him at that time and it resulted in him having a "sobbing" tone to his voice in his interview. Plus, there was probably an element of shame for Jeff at that time and he may have had regrets about what he did, or at least how he did it, so soon after the accident. 404. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I the only one who misses the Goody's Headache Award for the driver who has the worst luck in a race? I used to love that award due to its' rather ironic nature. I think Truex would have been a shoe-in for that award because he broke before lap 10 after starting on the front row. 405. Cooper posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So are we currently in some 3rd dimension right now? Half the things that are happening don't feel real. I dont think people realize how much this means to me. Look for a blog later this week. Championship is not over. This is Nascar and anything can happen. Just look at this race. If I didnt have a bias and I was a general fan, i'd be calling for the guillotine. 406. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51, I think that would be a great award to still have around because it would acknowledge a driver who had terrible luck and wound up with a bad finish as a result. It's certainly not an award drivers would want to receive, but it would at least acknowledge that they were robbed of a good finish by bad luck. 407. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If anything, I might just go through all the races after Homestead and determine who I think would be each race's Goody's Headache Award would be. It would certainly be fun to try to do. 408. The Final Gear posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Out of all these comments we missed the main point and what could have resulted in tragedy: Why the hell was there not a caution thrown as soon as Harvick made it across the line after the Princess spun? Furthermore, why did the Princess stay on the track and not go into pit lane when it was clear her car was damaged? #10 should be parked at Homestead for sheer retardation for that race, she can talk to the #24 who should be parked as well. 409. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fourth straight race Travis Kvapil has lead in, and five of the last six. 410. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I commented on that myself, The Final Gear. I thought that was pretty atrocious of NASCAR to not throw a caution for Danica's accident. I don't care if they threw it before the line and caused another green-white-checkered or if they threw it after the line and ended the race there, THAT should have been a caution. They'll throw cautions for absolutely nothing on the track, why wouldn't they throw one for that? All I'll say is this. I REALLY hope Tony Stewart is prepared to be dealing with a lot of torn up equipment next year thanks to Danica. You'll probably be seeing her in the wall a LOT. 411. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nope Gordon shouldnt be parked. He's a clean racer who is tiredof ppl's crap. 412. Rusty posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If one of the Busch bros. pulled the crap Gordon did today, people would be calling for their heads. 413. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) So if I murder someone, then I should go free cause you know, I've never murdered someone? And before you go "OMG THAT'S NOT THE SAME!" I'm merely using an example, a rather extreme one, but it has the same principles. 414. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree, The Final Gear and Schroeder51. The caution should have come out when Danica crashed, though I vehemantly disagree with the criticism of Danica afer that. She did what every true racer should (not that she's a real racer), and that is try to finish the race. It's NASCAR's fault that a big crash occurred at that point, not Danica's, if it was because of oil. And while the incident with Sam Hornish, Jr. was 100% her fault, What started that mayhem at the finish was not her fault at all. Jeff Burton, in another abnormal moment a crazy last hour, flat-out wrecked her. NASCAR erred in not throwing the caution, and Danica tried to finish the race. But when NASCAR delayed in throwing the caution, and Danica drove away, they were bescially forced to run the final lap under green due to their mistake. Danica did absolutely nothing wrong. And when the field hit turn four, there was oil all over the place, which might not have been seen by NASCAR. And though NASCAR might not have seen it, they basically had to have the field race to the finish, even if they had noticed it. Also adding to the severity of the crash is something I previously mentioned, and that is that Phoenix, like IMS, has a front straightaway lined with walls on both sides of a narrow straightaway, so if something does happen, there's nowhere for anyone to go to evade the crash. 415. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, as much as a lot of us disagree on the Bowyer - Gordon incident, I think a large majority of us agree that there should have been a caution for Danica. That wreck at the checkers was pretty scary looking, and it wouldn't have happened if they would have thrown the caution. I agree with CJS' notion that there needs to be a former driver like Wally Dallenbach as the Chief Steward (or whatever you want to call it), because clearly, Darby and Pemberton just aren't getting it done. It won't happen unfortunately, but if they really want to be taken seriously as a governing body, they need to change some things and be more consistent on issues like paybacks and restart jumps. For example, I really liked what IndyCar did this season. They got rid of that tool Brian Barnhart and started taking themselves more seriously. They came up with a clear set of rules and consistently enforced them. I think Nascar needs to go in that direction. The Goody's Headache Award? I remember that!!! It would be cool if you did try and bring that back, Schroeder. Many of us here on Racing-Reference have done their own versions of things before (like point systems), so that would be cool. Another award I miss is the Goodyear Rubberhead of the Race Award. I don't think it was officially recognized, but it went to the driver who made the biggest idiotic move in the race. For this race, I'd have to go untraditionally and recognize the idiots in the scoring tower. To me, they were the biggest rubberheads today, as that non-call of the caution triggered some ugly stuff. 416. Evan posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's like NASCAR is deliberately trying to piss off and chase away all of it's more serious fans in favor of the large numbers of "casual" fans. It REALLY seems that way to me." That's what I sense, man that's what I sense. This sport was grown on incidents like Bowyer and Gordon, I hate casual fans, you are either in or you are out. 417. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon should definitely be parked. Pulling a stunt like that needs to be punished. I've had time to digest it and I feel even more strongly now than before. And I dare somebody to find a time when Earnhardt just cruised around the track, waited for someone, then turned them head on. You won't find one cause Dale came up the hard way, not coddled every step of the way first by his step father then by his convicted felon billionaire owner. Like Waltrip once said, Dale was a surgeon, he knew how to cut you so precisely. And as for whoever said Bowyer cost Jeff a shot at the win at Martinsville, that is not true at all. What cost Gordon the win was him not passing JJ even though he could have. That put him back in the scrum. Just like this race. He fell way back cause JJ got wicked loose on a restart in front of Jeff, so Jeff just slowed way up to protect JJ. That put him way back. Had he not turned his testicles in to Rick in exchange for a piece of the 48 car, he wouldn't even be around Bowyer (who has done nothing wrong btw). So if he would just reclaim his balls, he wouldn't be in this position. Like Dale and his fatal wreck, if he would be up where he should be he wouldn't wreck. And here is the ironic thing. For all he has done to protect JJ, he just gave it all back in the end. What gets lost is that on the last round of stops, Brad stopped for 2 left side tires. His car never responded and he would drop like a rock on restarts. But he took out Bowyer and Logano who were ahead of Brad, which set off the chain of events leading to Danica's wreck and NASCAR's no call. Cautions breed cautions. So not only did he throw away the last part of his season being JJ's bitch, then he just undid all his work. Brilliant. And yes, Jeff, his whole career, has whined like a little girl when people touch him, but he does it and it is just hard racing. He is a tool and a product of HMS' superior cars from '95 to present. 418. Josh C posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon should undoubtably be suspended by NASCAR. Ive read drivers tweets and they aren't too pretty directed at Jeff. He now has an extremely tarnsished reputation. He'll never get the repect back that he no doubt lost today by fellow competitors or fans or even broadcast personnel. IMO, Jeff needs to just start looking for a replacement with Mr. Handrick for that 24 car, his career is over. What a sad end to a great career :( Im still a fan, just devastated that he stooped that low. I know he's better than that! 419. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I did a look through all the races so far this year (plus I racked my brain a bit to try to remember some of what happened...I'll also have to watch clips of some of this year's races since this year has had quite a few races where simply NOTHING stood out about them)...I think it's pretty safe to say Gordon and Kyle Busch would be winning quite a lot of Goody's Headache Awards this year if it were still around. They really have been the hard luck kings this year...it's shocking to see how similar their years have actually been! I'll do my best to post who I think would have won the Goody's Headache Award in every race if they still gave it out after Homestead. I will say I would give it to Truex in this race for sure...starting in second and breaking literally right after the green falls, you can't get any more unlucky than that. 420. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You'd have to be an asshole to quit being a Jeff fan over this. Dale Earnhardt did stuff unprovoked all the time. It's the mystique. When someone feels offended, they react that way. Football players are bigger assholes when they score TDs than Jeff was today." Thank you, NicoRosbergFan. 421. 10andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The difference is that Jeff forced Clint to his inside, then turned him across the entire track IN FRONT OF THE FIELD. That's not 'boys have at it', that's idiocy that could have gotten somebody badly hurt. 422. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully this will be my final comment on this whole ordeal for a while, but I don't believe in parking or suspending drivers for on-track incidents, especially when they're done by drivers who don't have a reputation for wrecking people or being careless on the track. That applies to both Gordon (who I don't think has paid anyone back since Chicago '06 with Matt Kenseth) and Danica (who should have gone to pit road, but I'll give her a pass because she was pretty close to pit road and probably thought she could drive it back around). If NASCAR had done a better job of managing their sport and this race, they would have thrown the caution when Gordon hit the wall and prevented his retaliation, and thrown the caution after Danica wrecked and had the race end under caution, which would have prevented that wreck coming to the finish line. I know some people have mentioned that Gordon was black flagged for not maintaining speed, but the black flag doesn't require the driver to get off the track for 3 laps, nor does it stop the action on the track. A caution would have stopped the action and slowed the cars down. Even if Gordon were to pay Clint back under caution, he would have done so at a much slower speed and not taken anyone out at the same time. I mentioned that I didn't agree with NASCAR parking Kyle at Texas last year, but the difference between that incident and this one is that that crash happened under caution, and therefore broke NASCAR rules because it happened under caution. Jeff's incident happened under green flag conditions, and therefore his retaliation, while I don't approve of how he did it, was legal. This was very reminiscent of Kyle retaliating against Elliott Sadler in the Truck race at Bristol last year after getting wrecked, and then waiting for Sadler before retaliating. I believe if they had thrown the caution for Gordon hitting the wall and having debris fly off his car, he would have went to pit road/garage and this incident would never have happened. But by not throwing the caution, they gave Gordon a chance to retaliate, and that's exactly what he did. The same goes for that last lap wreck after Danica dropped oil all over the track. If NASCAR parks either Gordon or Danica, then they're putting the blame on someone else for what happened at the end of this race. I don't think NASCAR is going to do anything to those two drivers (other than maybe a fine), and they shouldn't because it's their fault that those two incidents happened. If they had just done their job and thrown the caution for two different dangers (one for a wrecked car and debris, the other for a really wrecked car and oil), then we leave this race with nothing to talk about other than Harvick as the winner and Brad as the new points leader. Also, if NASCAR does park someone (which I doubt they will), they will be taking a big risk because a.) they would be punishing a driver who was fed up with being taken advantage of on the track, and b.) they would be parking one of the biggest names in the sport. Do you know how bad that would be? Fans will be going to Homestead for three reasons: To see who wins the race, to see who wins the championship, and/or to celebrate Jeff's 20 years in the sport. They're not going to do anything to Jeff knowing the ramifications it will have on him, his fans, his sponsors, and NASCAR itself. And they shouldn't park him because, like I said before, they did this to themselves by not throwing the caution flag. If you don't do anything to prevent an incident like this from happening, then you can't punish the participants who acted out because you essentially gave them permission to act out, and that's exactly what happened. Kyle Busch's suspension, while I don't agree with it, made sense because by throwing the caution, NASCAR was saying "Okay, stop what you're doing." By keeping the race under green like they did today, they were saying "Keep doing what you're doing." And just to let you know that I'm not the only person who thinks this way, I'll give you an example from a different sport. NFL Network did a special on former Cowboys head coach Jimmy Johnson the other day and at one point, Jimmy mentioned that he treated all of his players differently and that he would put established players who were better for the team on a longer leash than players who were expendable. He infamously cut backup linebacker John Roper in '93 after Roper fell asleep during a meeting. When asked what he would have done if a star player like Troy Aikman had fallen asleep, he said that he would have walked up to Troy and whispered in his ear "Troy, wake up." It sounds hypocritical and biased, but sometimes you have to treat players and people based on who they are and not treat them all the same. If he was consistent on all of his rules, technically he should have cut Troy Aikman for falling asleep during a meeting, just like he did to his backup linebacker. But like it or not, while all people are created equally, not all of them are worth equally. It may sound biased, but NASCAR would be making a big mistake parking Jeff Gordon next week because, quite frankly, he has more worth in this sport than most others, and therefore should be treated differently than others. 423. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Oh all of a sudden dalesrfanforever hates Gordon. Ha, you of all people has NO room to talk. Your idiot driver should have been parked numerous times and killed himself blocking Sterling Marlin too much. Dale Sr. is may have had great car control but isnt the greatest of all-time. Gordon put Sr. in his place. He races everyone clean 98% of the time and the second he gets mad and tqkes out Bowyer everyone says off with Gordon's head. Bowyer whines and complains all the time over the radio. He got what was coming. 424. 10andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, with regard to that final lap no-caution? That's /exactly what 'fans' have always said NASCAR should do/ in that situation. It's the final lap, the car that spun got going and down out of the way, no caution. And when they get exactly what they've asked for, the 'fans' turn on NASCAR like a pack of rabid weasels. But I insult the family Mustelidae. 425. 10andJoe posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Bon Gordon (#423): perhaps you should check your facts. Also, if this were a board and I was a mod, you would be kicked for that statement. 426. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "b.) they would be parking one of the biggest names in the sport." Happened to Kyle last year, and the world didn't end. Bon Gordon, please shut up, for your sake. You're just making yourself look like even more of a fool. 427. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nope ill stand by what I say. Gordon wrecked Bowyer and wont be parked. Will always be a legend who's legacy wont be tarnished. Get over it. And ill stop the comments. Don't mess with my driver 428. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...Can people actually get banned here? Because I think BON GORDON would be if that's the case. 429. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think you could probably just change your username if you were to get "banned." 430. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Banned for what???!!!! Ha. Get over it. Ban yourself. Ill just change my name like half of you do all the time. 431. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, while I agree that Gordon should be parked for Homestead, I disagree that Bowyer has done nothing wrong. For instance, in the indicent in the first Martinsville race, he could have held his car straight to Gordon's back bumper and it likely wouldn't have turned him into Johnson, causing that huge wreck. Bowyer made that decision to divebomb that turn. What Newman's bump did was to prevent Bowyer from trying to get out of it, if he wanted to. Bowyer's decision cost him that race. Then in the series' return to Martinsville, Bowyer almost spun out Denny Hamlin in the first part of the race, so Bowyer's been in it with more than one driver this year. And of course, there was the way Bowyer raced Gordon at the finish. Then there was today, which was self-explanatory. Also, another thing that cost Gordon at the second Martinsville race was the decision to pit. Since he had to start on the outside line, he got stuck behind other cars he had been faster than all day, and could not make it back by them. And if you were referring to the restart today where Gordon backed way off, remember that Gordon restarted on the preferred inside groove, but got taken 3-wide by Kasey Kahne, so he did the smart thing by backing off. Of course, he might not have been in that position if he had a crew chief that actually thought out a race and was even competent at calling a race, because he was running fifth when they made the decision to take four tires, and had a bad pit stop on top of it. And as for anyone saying that this incident puts him down historically, that must be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of, because every driver has had something like this happen at some point in their career. It may not have been as blatant as today, but almost every driver has done something like this at some point in their career. And he quickly felt remorse for the innocent victims of this crash because they did nothing to deserve being a part of it. Gordon needs to be severely dealt with, and probably parked for the final race, but he's built such a legacy of winning that this may tarnish it, but only for a short time. In fact, by next year, a lot of people might forget about this incident, and certainly when his career is over, this incident will probably be treated by historians as nothing more than an acute anomaly. I still have him second on my all-time rankings (I moved him ahead of Bobby Allison when he passed him on the all-time wins list), which I'll release during the off-season, and nothing he does will change that, though there might be others in the future that might change that. But what happened today proves that anybody is capable of anything when pushed over the edge, because Gordon is onw of the last guys you'd think of being capable of such an act, but today showed differently. And a 36-year veteran of racing, like Jeff Gordon is, should have known better. 432. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, wait, that's right, I remember biffle16 got banned a few years ago for being annoying and came back as "Douche Bagalow" or something like that. I guess the only way you could be permanently banned is if they banned someone's IP address...but in this day and age where people have many different ways to access the Internet, that's probably still not fully possible... 433. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldn't be hard to tell who he is each time he changed his IP. His Gordon worship and douchebaggery are blatantly obvious. 434. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh all of a sudden DaleSrFanForever hates Gordon." You noticed that too? 435. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im sorry everyone but obviously ive never been this upset. No one likes when there driver is attacked. Gordon is a great driver and a great human being. It upsets me a lot that people are villifying him so much. Maybe he shouldn't have wrecked Bowyer but Gordon needs to defend himself. I need a couple hours to calm down but Jeff should not be parked. Something like this never happens with Jeff and I'm sure won't happen again. I am sorry but I hate the hatred towards Gordon. I'll say it one more time Gordon is a great driver and human being. 436. Sector posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, folks. When you're black flagged, you get up to 3 laps or so before you have to serve, or you'll get in major trouble then. Jeff Gordon didn't ignore it. Another, Chase Elliott is planned to take over the #24 car when he's ready, that's when Jeff Gordon is due for retirement. So not for another 5+ years at least. What we experienced here today, with the Clint Bowyer/Jeff Gordon incident, was mostly due to Jeff Gordon's frustration @ being the one who gets knocked around these days. (This is coming from a Jeff Gordon fan). Yes, his temper got the best of him today, but who wouldn't? This is not the first a driver will cause such dangerous accident & won't be the last. At the bright side, everyone is okay, we got a little glimpse of some old school racing, which most youngsters won't even knowledge of. But you have to ask yourself. 1) No caution after seeing debris coming from the #24 car? I mean you can see it with a naked eye & NASCAR likes to throw some for those you can't see to a naked eye. 2) No caution after Danica's spin? Just glad Harvick was the winner as I was cheering him on (Congratulations Kevin Harvick, drought was ended to end!), but you see, I think Danica was waiting for a caution after she spun. Which after the spin, everyone was waiting for. Kevin wasn't at the white flag yet also, just about the same length as when the Jeff/Clint incident occurred from the line. So what we witness here tonight, is indeed, a one of a kind, rare, special race that I believe is one of the top 3 best races of 2012. Oh by the way, Jimmie Johnson hitting the wall coming into the straightaway resulted in a 32nd place finish, which means Brad Keselowski will finally end the streak of championships won by people named Stewart & Johnson since Kurt Busch did it. Roger Penske is looking for his first Cup heading into Homestead with Brad with a good 20 point lead. We can only hope those 20 points are enough to survive what we might see, another chaos next weekend. Brad stalled on the first pit stop of the day & had to restart behind Jimmie Johnson but recovered without problems. Jimmie however, didn't easily follow after Brad passed him. Aside from that, Brad ran a great race with a great car. I felt that even Kyle Busch dominated much of the race, he was overshadowed by Brad vs Jimmie, then after Jimmie hit the wall, everyone was overshadowed by the Jeff vs Clint thing, even Kevin Harvick's win. So the leader/winner for this race was, in fact, not popular tonight LOL (My first comment on this site, Sector out!) 437. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul 400 "So Bowyer put his car in reverse and hit Gordon in the left front??" Sarcasm Paul. Sarcasm Anyways... Gordon tried to hit Bowyer in the right rear W/ his left front and he ended up cutting down a tire. That's what he was pissed about more than anything. He's officially lost it. 438. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah it was just fine when Earnhardt wrecked Bodine for no reason other than the fact that he was a Yankee, but God forbid Gordon stand up for himself against a driver who has done him wrong several times this season. Maybe next time he'll just express himself on Twitter like Logano, and have people call him a "pushover" and lessen his legacy anyways just to keep some of you people happy. murb, I understand what you said, but my point was that Jeff was on the verge of tears because not only did he know he did something wrong, but it's not in his nature to be the bad guy and retaliate like that. He had an overwhelmingly high amount of emotions going through him at that time and it resulted in him having a "sobbing" tone to his voice in his interview. Plus, there was probably an element of shame for Jeff at that time and he may have had regrets about what he did, or at least how he did it, so soon after the accident." I agree with this comment. Other than that, I will refrain from commenting on this incident. 439. Sector posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correction, you have up to 3 laps to serve for the black flag* My apologies 440. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Did you guys see Keselowski's media center interview? "I get bashed every week by drivers for racing hard, and then I see shit like this. IT'S F****** BULLSHIT AND IT PISSES ME OFF." 441. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) cjs3872 "Ryan, Gordon's ego did not get the best of him at that moment. His temper was what got the best of him there. And I do agree what he did was awful, and that he could hae picked a better way to do it. And if he was visibly upset at the aftermath of what he did, it would have been for the other two teams that were involved, because he certainly didn't mean for anyone else to get involved, nor does anyone else in a payback incident like that. They're so intent on getting even with he guy he's after that h's ot aware of anyone else that might get caught up in it, and they never intend for anyone else to get involved." His temper and his "I'm Jeff Gordon. I've won 4 Nascar Championships. I have won 86 races. I've won 3 Daytona 500's. I've won the Winston Million" ego is exactly what was in his head when he hit Bowyer. "Who is Clint Bowyer? What has he done?" Guarantee that's what he was thinking. 442. Peter posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow Jeff pissed all over his great career with his actions; I never thought I'd see Jeff Gordon and dirty driver in the same sentence - what a sad sight 443. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NadeauFan91, Kyle wrecked Hornaday under caution and broke NASCAR rules. Gordon didn't break any official rules by wrecking someone under the green flag. That's why I can understand why NASCAR parked Kyle at Texas because he essentially violated NASCAR rules for what he did. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. This sport has lacked emotion this year, and from a ratings standpoint, this was good for the sport. It got us all talking, and as long as we're all talking about the sport, it's a good thing. Plus, parking someone for retaliating against another driver will only encourage drivers to berate each other on the track because they'll know that the other driver will either not do anything, or they'll retaliate and be punished as a result. 444. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 417. DSFF RIGHT ON! 445. Eric posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51, Biffle 16 used his or her own name a few weeks ago on the Dale Earnhardt Jr. comment page, but one of those comments were deleted. 446. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regardless of whether or not Keselowski wins the championship (which I'm sure he will barring him blowing the guts out of an engine or Hendrick having his other drivers do some dirty driving to put Keselowski out of the race-which I could see happening) I think we all have to agree that this has been one of NASCAR's most disappointing seasons EVER. Especially compared to last year, which was probably the most exciting NASCAR season in...well, about 6-7 years. It really seems like last year was an anomaly... 447. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Ryan. Ego has nothing to do with it, because who it was, on both ends, has nothing to do with it. It was temper, plain and simple. He already had a season in which next-to-nothing has gone right, combined with the fact that Clint Bowyer has been bullying him all year, and put all that together, and he snapped. But that could happen to anyone at anytime, especially considering the circumstances. But because it was Jeff Gordon, with all his accomplishments, involved in delivering the payback, everybody's talking about it, including me. But we've seen most of the established drivers have to establish, in no uncertain terms, where the line is, and in Gordon's mind, Bowyer crossed that line. He was just disappointed afterwards that others were involved in his actions. I remember a similar incident in 1997 at Bristol between Geoff Bodine and Jimmy Spencer that also involved Steve Grissom, even injuring Grissom's foot if I recall correctly, and neither Bodine or Spencer had any remorse for Grissom in that incident. 448. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Oh all of a sudden DaleSrFanForever hates Gordon." You noticed that too?" I think all computers should have a sensor that determines how angry you are. If it senses that your anger levels are too high, then it will prevent you from typing and saying something you may not mean or will regret saying later. I'm not trying to pick on you, DSFF, but I think it would be very beneficial to a lot of people. And it doesn't just apply to this site, which understandably has a lot more tension that usual, but it would also benefit hotheaded people on social networking sites as well. 449. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I don't think that's the same biffle16 because I don't remember him being THAT immature. He was immature for sure but I don't remember him ever laughing at drivers being hurt before. It wouldn't be hard for someone here to pose as someone else at all, really. 450. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I think computers having a system like that would be very well appreciated by people like me who can have a habit of saying things in the heat of the moment that we're likely to end up regretting (I openly admit I have that problem). But, we are all only human. We all can get angry and do things we end up regretting. None of us are perfect and the world would be pretty boring if we all were perfect. 451. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) This truly is probably the darkest day for Jeff Gordon since Brooke dumped him. He's not at all dominant like he once was. And he had no grounds to hit Bowyer today. It was hard racing at Martinsville between the two and here as well. The competition is so close, you can't just get mad because he won't move out of the way for you. Both are going for the same real estate and they both have the same right to go after it. Gordon's temper, ego, and frustrations got the best of him today. He hasn't won the title in a long time now and a lot of these drivers don't look at him like the ones that came around in the mid 90's/early 2000's do. A lot of them were intimidated and he was in a way more superior car then than he is now. Plus he is arugably #4 on his team. Frustrations -Not as dominant as once was -Hasn't won a title since 2001 -Hasn't been in the championship hunt for 5 years -only wins a race or two here and there a year now -good case for being "last" on four car team. Definitely not first where he once was and no one ever would have thought he would lose the #1 spot on Mr. H's team -Crew Chief changes -Mediocre Time to give it up and give a new young gun a chance 452. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with some of the earlier comments, this was more something I expected from Kyle Busch, not someone who is a 4-time champion with 85+ wins and had the respect of pretty much all his fellow drivers in the garage (emphasis on had, since some of that was probably lost today). One other thing, Harvick won this race yet all the spotlight was on the championship battle between Brad and Jimmie (which Brad has won barring a disaster at Homestead, I hope I'm not bringing out the #2 party gear too early) and the incident with Gordon and Bowyer. 453. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like both Gordon and Bowyer but the real problem I had with it is that 2 innocent bystanders were caught up in the garbage (with Logano wrecking out). I think it can go either way on whether or not Gordon gets parked. It wasn't under caution like Busch last year, but it was head on into the wall like Busch did to Hornaday. I'm anxious to see what NASCAR does. 454. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "But because it was Jeff Gordon, with all his accomplishments, involved in delivering the payback, everybody's talking about it, including me." Not only does he have an ego, but his fans have one for him too. I rest my case Clint Bowyer DID NOTHING wrong today except race hard. He didn't do anything to Gordon today to deserve that. At Martinsville I remember well Gordon coming down on him on the backstretch with a few laps remaining in the race. "I'm Jeff Gordon, I can hit people and race people hard, but when they race me hard they are going to pay. They aren't supposed to race me hard." - Jeff Gordon 455. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And let me take my example of established sports people being treated differently than others to this site. There are some posters on this site who are more established than others (I won't list names, but some of you will know who you are) and aren't known for saying controversial or offending things. If one day one of them said something that offended some people, I wouldn't ban them because they have a good name and a good record. But if they're trolls and/or have frequently made immature/offending remarks, I might think about banning them because they have a bad name and a bad record. That's why I wouldn't do anything because Gordon has a good name and a good record. People with good names and good records should get the benefit of the doubt in these situations because it is uncharacteristic of them to act out in this type of way. Now obviously, Gordon at this point has a bad mark on his career, but I don't think it trumps the rest of his career and how he behaved on the track before this race. If he had a history of being the bad guy and did this, I would understand a parking by NASCAR. But because of who he is and his past history, I would give him a pass this one time while also letting him know that another incident like this could have severe consequences (being placed on probation for a year would be a good start). Also, in far more positive news, Sam Hornish, Jr. will be back at Penske Racing in the Nationwide Series in 2013. Good for him, he earned it after this season. 456. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am sorry for being so angry everyone. That's mad as I've ever been watching NASCAR. Man I would've just been happy with a fifth or sixth place finish instead of all of this crap. I just want all of this to go away and for everyone to move on. But I do agree cause this is good for NASCAR because it will have people talking for awhile, thats for sure. I hope people can forgive me and Jeff Gordon. We are both great guys. 457. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Man I would've just been happy with a fifth or sixth place finish instead of all of this crap. I just want all of this to go away and for everyone to move on." Amen. This are tough times being a Gordon fan. 458. Baker posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) BON GORDON you are making yourself look as classless as your driver made himself look today. You know good and well if Kyle, Kurt, Harvick, Stewart or Danica pulled that stunt then you would be calling for a suspension yourself, but since this is your boy then you're on the other side of the fence. Just admitt your driver made a bonehead move and should be punished for it. Hell my driver does bonehead things on a yearly basis grant it nothing this boneheaded yet. 459. David posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised Tyler hasn't eaten this up yet. 460. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But, we are all only human. We all can get angry and do things we end up regretting. None of us are perfect and the world would be pretty boring if we all were perfect." Schroeder51, in a way you basically summarized why I'm against the idea of parking Gordon for next week's race. In the end, he made a terrible mistake today in a way that I've never seen him make before. If this was a frequent occurrence, I would understand a penalty. But because this was a careless act done by a driver who is anything but careless, I can't support a penalty, nor do I think there will be a penalty. And besides, if nothing else, it got all of us, including non-NASCAR people, talking about NASCAR today. For a sport that is behind in ratings, despite trying to manipulate the outcomes of races in the past, this strong act of emotion shown by Gordon can only mean good things for the sport. Penalizing him only stops this momentum that NASCAR currently has, but keeping him on the track next week adds another dimension to the Homestead race because not only will we watching to see who wins and who wins the championship, but we'll also be watching where the #15 and #24 cars are on the track. And knowing how much this sport loves ratings, I'm sure that's on their minds right now and will factor into their decision process. 461. Alex posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great race for me. Favourite driver wins, least favourite crashes out (I wish Keselowski just had the chance to beat him heads up, but oh well!). The finish was just pathetic and I hope Gordon gets suspended but I doubt nascar will do anything.. 462. Paul posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bon Gordon, I forgive you because as I mentioned previously, I think all of us with good names should be given the benefit of the doubt in these situations. I've never seen you say something like that before, and because of that, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and forgive you for what you said earlier. If it was a frequent occurrence I might not feel the same way, but because it's not, I'll give you a pass and I think everyone else should too. 463. Peter posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A moment of silence we just witnessed the assassination of Jeff Gordon's character 464. Ryan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You don't take out people like that when they are fighting for a championship. If BK would have got taken out in that all hell would have broken loose. In the midst of this Kevin "The Closer" Harvick won his 19th career race. That makes 11 of his 19 wins that he's led under 35 laps in them and won. And the Captain is in great shape to win his first ever Nascar Championship. He was close a few times with Rusty, but Dale prevented that from happening. Hope it happens. BK and the Captain really needed each other when it came to their Nascar relationship. There were rumors of Penske folding because of the inability to find a decent driver with their head on straight on and off the track. The Captain is one of my heroes because of his leadership skills and success he has had with so many businesses. BK reminds me a lot of Dale in his early years of racing. Races hard and keeps people honest. Making a name for himself and giving everything he's got every lap. And look, he's racing the #2 like him when Dale won in '80. 465. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, I found Brad's transcript from his post race news conference. If you ask me, he completely sets it straight. Kudos, Mr. Keselowski. "Well, it's the doublestandard that I spent a whole week being bashed by a half a dozen drivers about racing hard at Texas and how I'm out of control and have a death wish, and then I see bullshit like that. That's f**king bullshit. That's all you can call that. These guys just tried to kill each other. You race hard and I get called an asshole for racing hard and called with a death wish, and I see shit like that, and it just pisses me off. I'm not yelling at you, Dave, but it's just f**king ridiculous, and they should be ashamed. It's embarrassing." 466. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker the reason I dont think Gordon should be parked is this doesnt ever happen to Jeff and while it may be wrong people should not villify Jeff. You know he's a great guy dispite what happened today. If it happened again then I would agree to park Gordon but I honestly don't think it will. Dale Jarrett, another classy driver got tired of Ryan Newman at the Sharpie 500 at Bristol in 2005 and did the same thing Gordon did today. People get frustrated and yes Gordon made a mistake but it's only his first BIG one. Many drivers have much shorter tempers than Jeff Gordon. 467. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ' 263. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.12 - 6:15 pm Cjs, I was wrong, you were right. Jeff Gordon is D-O-N-E. He is W-A-S-H-E-D U-P. ' - It's a shame I have no way of proving this, but I said something along those lines to my family a few weeks back. I think Gordon is going out slowly, he sees it, and he is angry about it. Rather consciously or sub-consciously, he's taking it out on others. I was willing to stand by as a Jeff Gordon fan after the debacle between him and Johnson in early 2010, along with Gordon and Burton in late 2010, but this is: UNACCEPTABLE! - '417. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.12 - 9:20 pm Gordon should definitely be parked. Pulling a stunt like that needs to be punished. I've had time to digest it and I feel even more strongly now than before. And I dare somebody to find a time when Earnhardt just cruised around the track, waited for someone, then turned them head on. You won't find one cause Dale came up the hard way, not coddled every step of the way first by his step father then by his convicted felon billionaire owner. Like Waltrip once said, Dale was a surgeon, he knew how to cut you so precisely...' - YES YES YES YES YES MOTHERFRICKING YES! PARK THE 24, AND SUSPEND HIM FROM THE AWARDS CEREMONY! I, by NO MEANS, like Dale Earndhart Sr. I HATE Dale Earndhart Sr! But DSFF gets it dead right here, Dale Sr NEVER went out of his way, after being black-flagged, to find someone and demolish their day, not caring about anyone else's race. This is worse then Edwards Vs Keselowski Atlanta 2010, because even though circumstances are similar, Edwards was going to SPIN the 12 INTO the INFEILD, and more then likely, NOT in the path of OTHER CARS. The entire thing about the car getting airborne was a product of the COT's design, along with speed, location on the track, and which track, all which were beyond Edward's control save the last one. *Edwards could have waited until Bristol*. But here we see someone who is a 20-year veteran, and he acts like...a total -censored-! WHAT THE MOTHER F***ING HELL JEFF!? Turning someone UP, the track, HEAD-ON into a wall, collecting OTHER DRIVERS, and setting up the circumstances for a super-insane pile-up afterwards in a GWC...? No. It's unforgivable. And let me say something right now, praise for Joey Logano. If I was him, I would have stormed to Gordon after the debacle with JG&team Vs 15Team, and given Gordon a piece of my mind! The fact that he stayed THAT calm after the insanity and kept it limited to the worse on TWITter tweets, earns him so much respect from me, it's not funny. Not mention the 43, and the 39, 55, the 27 and 10 (who both could have been injured) all by that retarded move! I'll say it right now, NASCAR should Park Jeff Gordon, and suspend him from the Awards Ceremony, along with a hefty fine and half-year probation for the season of 2013! But NASCAR won't do it, because Gordon is loved, as opposed to Edwards who was mostly neutral/liked with the fan-base majority in his incident, and Kyle who was near universally hated during his incident last year. If NASCAR listens to the fans with SENSE, Gordon will be suspended. And just to let you know, if Gordon is not suspended, and Bowyer wrecks JG at Homestead (In a more logical way like a tap into a wall or a spin into the infield), I will not have a complaint! One question...in the eyes of someone like Trevor Bayne...now how does he look at Jeff Gordon? ---- 413. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.12 - 8:51 pm So if I murder someone, then I should go free cause you know, I've never murdered someone? And before you go "OMG THAT'S NOT THE SAME!" I'm merely using an example, a rather extreme one, but it has the same principles. - ^ Almost every Nadeau Fan I have ran into or heard from (Maybe...three?) has such amazing views on these types of things. 468. Jim Davis posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "...I can't support a penalty..." What could Gordon have done that would have warranted a one race suspension in your opinion? 469. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a completely different subject, huge shout out to Antron Brown. He won the NHRA Top Fuel title today, becoming the first ever African American champion in major auto racing history. I'm not really a drag racing fan, but that's really cool. I've seen interviews with him, and he seems like a great dude. Congrats. Also, did anyone else see Danica almost get turned over on the last lap wreck? I just saw another replay from a different angle, and she was very close to getting turned over. Pretty crazy. 470. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Gordon did something like this again than yes a suspension. I'd give him probation for a year anda $100,000 fine to a NASCAR charity. I promise this will be just a tiny blip on Gordon's legacy. He's overall a very clean racer. 471. 18fan posted: 11.11.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will come right out and say that Kevin Harvick is probably my least favorite driver in NASCAR, but he did a great job and I have to give him credit for something: Over the last couple years Harvick hasn't been in position to win many races, but when he has a chance to win races, he usually gets the job done. I still think "The Finisher" is a more appropriate name because he comes on right at the finish. 472. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I noticed that during the broadcast when they showed replays, murb. Her car was just barely crawling along and Menard and Kurt Busch just violently plowed into her. Scary crash for sure. We are very lucky no one was hurt in that one. 473. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah. Yeah, I just barely noticed a few minutes ago as they were showing the replay on Speed. 474. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Brad's media center interview was epic. He rubs fenders a few times and everyone says he's nuts. Yet people like Carl (who did it twice to Brad himself) and now Jeff pull far more dangerous stunts and it is "well, he had had enough" (Ricky Craven's SportsCenter analysis was ridiculous, I have a lot of respect for Ricky for his driving career and usually really good analysis, but you could see his bias towards Jeff since they are good friends). I'd be angry too. And he is right, NASCAR needs to crack down on retaliations like this. Hard racing is one thing. This garbage is something totally different. And another thing, as for driving ability, Jeff Gordon > Clint Bowyer. So if you feel he is racing you too hard, give it back! This is the same guy who repeatedly roughed up Rusty Freaking Wallace. Why stoop to this level? Cause you know you are a shell of your former self. I really thought he was primed for a turnaround and return to championship form. I was wrong and cjs was right. He is nothing more than JJ's valet. I wonder if he mows Jimmie's grass for him during the week. He may as well. 475. murb posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I wonder if he mows Jimmie's grass for him during the week." lol, I just had visions of that old Fritos commercial where Jeff is mowing his lawn, and then Brooke makes him come inside or whatever. 476. GDR posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick's got 5 wins over the past two years, the only guys with more are Brad, Jimmie, Tony, Matt, and Denny. That's pretty good company to be in. 477. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I don't care what you say, such bias can not be tolerated. Jeff Gordon has represented this sport before, and to an extent, continues to do so. His face could be though of by many when the companies of DuPont, AARP, and more are mentioned. Fans of all ages look up to him. Even young fans. Take this as an example: A 5 year old boy sees this instances transgress. Nothing comes of it. Said 5 year old boy then thinks that he can do retaliate in anger, because there will be no noticeable punishment. As opposed, if something comes of this, and let's say Gordon is suspended, said 5 year old now sees and realizes that doing bad things lend you with bad conseqeunces, irregardless of who you are. Maybe now the 5 year old will keep himself in check? I know that example seems...stupid, but it's the most innocent, simple one I could think of. Here is another one, a bit less related to the scenario: Person has never, ever Texted while driving. Then, a message comes on his phone. As he is in a rush, while still driving he glances at his phone. A nearby officer notices, and pulls him over, ticketing him. Driver is reminded why he shouldn't do so. Meanwhile, a teenage kid is in the back seat or side seat, and sees, and is influenced likewise to believe that texting while driving is bad. As opposed, when the officer pulls the man over, sees his record concerning Texting while driving is clean, he lets him go. The average teenager while think that because he doesn't have a record whatsoever, he could do the same regardless of the law. This could result in a serious crash later for the teenager, a penalty, and a reccord that is damaged early on. I'm hoping you understand. PEOPLE are WATCHING. When you get to points like this in sports, government, and the like, you become ROLE MODELS to others. People look up to you. And if they see someone like Jeff Gordon do crap like this and there is no punishment, they will, consciously or sub-consciously, have their decisions in life affected in some way by it. And you have to remeber one thing. Jeff Gordon put other drivers in danger by carrying out this move. Now, to put a limit on this. Let's say DSFF on this site, a very well respected member of this site, says an off-the-cuff remark that offends several people, or maybe even most people. However, an offensive remark is not putting someone's life in danger(at least, 99.97 percent of the time it won't), and compared to Twitter, Facebook, Myspace, or another Social Networking site, this is like apples and oranges to a large super-social networking site. That means this could be overlooked. I hope I have made it clear why I disagree with you Paul, and to what extent the disagreement goes to. 478. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Every driver mows Jimmies grass. I never thought Gordon could win another champion. He's not the 10 plus win driver he once was, so what. He's still a Top Ten driver and besides Jimmie no one else will get his numbers. Jeff makes millions and millions of dollars and has a beautiful family. I really don't think he cares what he did....yet. I don't agre with what he did but retaliation happens all the time in auto racing. As long as this doesnt happen again than it's not a big deal. A lot of people don't know that Jeff and Clint are great friends. They will be fine before you know it. 479. Thomas posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I agree with several of you that Gordon should be suspended, I don't expect him to be because NASCAR doesn't have the guts to sit a Hendrick driver. Secondly, there absolutely should have been a caution when Danica spun and before Harvick got to the white flag. So why wasn't there? Probably because Brian France didn't want to see Richard Childress walking towards him while taking his watch off. And if there had been a caution, who would have been sitting pretty? Brad Keselowski, because everyone ahead of him would have needed to pit for gas before the 2nd overdrive. Just think about an angry Keselowski doing a winner's interview. 480. Mr X posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, I've thought that aswell, though I don't particularly like him, I will defend him to the high hills as a driver. I think he is one of the best out there, for a few simple reasons. Again as you said when is in a close duel for a win, he usually gets it, he beat Tony Stewart at the Glen in '06, he beat Johnson and Busch at Fontana last year dispite restarting 6th, and sorry to rub salt in the wounds but he bettered Kyle Busch on two restarts again today. He can win on any track or type of track, and he proved in 2010 he has an Earnhardt like ability to drive to the front from a poor starting position. The thing about him that impresses me the most though is his car control, IMO he is one of the best drivers at riding that knife edge, driving at the limit without going over, he almost never crashes or spins without some form of outside assistance, and he has an uncanny ability to right a car thats badly wronged, and come out of a spin where he should've crashed, without crashing. See Bristol and or Darlington 2011. He is as consistant as they get as a driver. I believe that all of his issues regarding streakyness are due to RCR. Other then being a complete jerk much of the time, the only knock I have against him as a driver is that he isn't a driver you can build a team around, because when things don't go well he reverts to unconstructive hissy fits, similar to numerous other drivers. Thats the difference between Kevin and Jimmie or Jeff. How is a race team supposed to be successful when there are personel changes every other month due to a frustrated driver. Thats the difference. If Kevin was at HMS, or had been brought up under Dale's tutelage as was originally planned before the tradegy, I firmly believe Kevin would probably have 30-40 wins, and at least one title by now. 481. Anonymous posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, with regard to that final lap no-caution? That's /exactly what 'fans' have always said NASCAR should do/ in that situation. It's the final lap, the car that spun got going and down out of the way, no caution. And when they get exactly what they've asked for, the 'fans' turn on NASCAR like a pack of rabid weasels. But I insult the family Mustelidae." I am one of those people who has been calling for more no-caution situations like that and was glad to see the race stay green....until the #10 car continued on past pit road. That is where NASCAR should have thrown a caution. On this matter, they should have a policy in place for drivers to follow when they have an accident. The #10 hit pretty hard and was in no state to continue around as it did. If she had've pulled into the pits, as she should have, then I'm ok with that. But having the car try to limp around the track, especially as there is no apron on the front stretch, that required the attention of the officials. Short version: Car hitting wall - doesn't need caution. Car on the racetrack (as in, not on the apron) at walking pace - if they can vacate the track before the field reaches them, then stay green, but if not, caution. Ultimately, I think NASCAR has gotten in too far over their heads, when it comes to the whole caution situation. No one can dispute that there are occasions where NASCAR throws cautions for the sake of excitement and competition rather than for driver safety and I think that this has in turn made them loose track of how to actually react in a legitimate incident that may or may not actually require a yellow flag. Today was a mess. 482. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "^ Almost every Nadeau Fan I have ran into or heard from (Maybe...three?) has such amazing views on these types of things." How am I supposed to take that? :P 483. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As long as this doesnt happen again than it's not a big deal." You completely missed the point on post 477 484. cjs3872 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know guys, listening to some of what Brad Keselowski said in his post-race press conference, I wonder if he'll have that 20-point lead going into the finale that he has now. The reason I said that has to do with the way he lambasted NASCAR, and it's officiating (which is well deserved, I might add). Add that to the language he used, and Brad could have a stiff fine going his way from NASCAR, and a possible loss of points. Certainly, he'l get a stern talking to from NASCAR, but based on what he said, given what NASCAR did to Ryan Newman and Denny Hamlin in the past, Brad may very well get fined, and he could even lose some championship points. And NASCAR could also get even by flunkng him in technical inspection and taking the championship away from him that way. Now I'm not disagreeing with what he said, but NASCAR will certainly take exception, and if their history in such matters repeats itself, the #2 team may, at the very least, have a hard time in inspection at Homestead. I wouldn't put it past NASCAR to say something about the car being illegal that has been put through inspection and been declared legal, because NASCAR has done this before regarding drivers and teams that have harshly criticized them. Just something to think about. Jimmie Johnson may be closer to the point lead than he thinks he is. Instead of 20 points behind, he may be something like just 5-0 points behind, and don't be surprised if Brad gets a controversial speeding or restart penalty at Homestead because of the harsh comments he made. NASCAR doesn't like drivers that do that and will find some way to get even. And what better way to do so than to call a borderline penalty that takes away the championship from Brad, who's a controversial driver, and present it to Jimmie Johnson, who is anything but. Just something to throw out there. 485. BON GORDON posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No I got the point in post 477. 486. Schroeder51 posted: 11.11.2012 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah man, cjs, you know you're going to make a lot people angry suggesting that! Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if NASCAR did something crazy like that... 487. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yea i never though of that cjs. 488. Mr X posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, I think it would be very hard for NASCAR to justify a points penalty for some swearing. I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't believe NASCAR should use points penalties for any infractions period, however any points penalties handed down by NASCAR must be for an in-race rule infraction, whether it be cheating or just disobeying rules, and should only be handed down in a points race. In order for NASCAR to take points from you, you must first get them in some ill-gotten way, IMO. 489. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is something to think about CJS, but I don't see it happening. The way I read it basically came across as Brad calling out the other drivers, not Nascar. If it was on live television, then I could definitely see them fining or taking points from him. But it was in the media center, and drivers cuss and go off in there all the time from what I've seen. I am expecting a fine for Brian Pattie and the 15 team, though. When he was being interviewed after the "brawl", he dropped an s-bomb. That's usually been a no-no with Nascar when it's happened on television (Jr 2004 Talladega, Tony in victory lane at Indy 2007). So I'm guessing that Brian Pattie will have to empty his wallet here later this week. 490. Scott Bonin posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Bush came into another series and took someone out going 150+mph, who was a championship contender. Jeff Gordon and Bowyer have a history and Gordon felt like enough was enough. He did it under green and at much lower speeds. Yeah it was a stupid move, but its not like it hasn't happened before and boy had at it, so fair game. Everyone seems to forget that Dale Earnhardt made a name for himself doing this, and was actually commended for it. He also did it unprovoked, just ask Terry Labonte. That was also fair game, and I have no problem with it either. There should be no penalty, justice was settled. Just feel bad for Lagono and Amirola and the crews who need to fix the torn up racecars. 491. b4il3y posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm usually pretty quiet on here as well, but there's a few things I've seen in the peanut gallery here that's just not true. 1. Danica didn't wreck...she got wrecked by Burton. Not taking up for Danica, but she's done an alright job the last half of the season. She was on the lead lap and actually 15th when Burton got her. 2. If you punish Brad for language, then everyone needs to get it. If not, then let them settle it on or off the track. If someone gets hurt, then NASCAR will reap what it sows. Brad has a very, very valid point and a good reason to be upset. The drivers that are getting on his case are the ones retaliating and wrecking each other. 3. Agreed however, yellow flag should've came out with all the oil on the track. Harvick's lucky he made it through turn 4 with all the oil. That being said, I think everyone will agree, we're talking about racing and loving the sport that we love to watch. I've gave NASCAR alot of chances, and something always happens that keeps me watching. This race without a doubt has this community buzzing along with other racing forums for sure. By the way, check out MWR's facebook page. Evidently in Bowyer's ESPN interview, he used the word "retards". I know he was mad in the heat of the moment, but that comment has blown up his facebook page with all kinds of parents of disabled children telling him what a bad choice of words that was. 492. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Schroeder51, they have a history of that. In fact, there was a story that when Jeff Gordon was penalized in 2000 after his Richmond victory, that a reason for the "infraction" was that he had criticized NASCAR for not moving fast enough on the safety of the cars, as his team claimed that the part of his car that failed had passed numerous times during that season. And numerous drivers have been hit with suspicious speeding penalties after making controversial statements about NASCAR and it's officiating of races. And the penalty that just cost Corey LaJoie the K&N East title might very well have been a direct result of how he won the race the he was penalized in post-race inspection after. And there are numerous other examples if things like that happening. If you do or say something that NASCAR doesn't like, they have ways of getting even, so don't be surprised if Jeff Gordon gets at least one suspicious penalty next year as a result of what happened at Phoenix, and don't be surprised if Brad Keselowski gets some kind of oddball penalty because of his comments, because NASCAR likes to do things like that to get back at those who criticize it, just to show who's in charge. And NASCAR just might do something to take the championship from him to make just such a statement. Of course, if Jimmie Johnson has problems at Homestead next week, it won't matter, but if he gets in position, don't be surprised if a suspicious penalty is levied to cost Brad the title, even with someone as powerful as Roger Penske in his corner. 493. Brandon posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon has done this before. He deliberately wrecked Robby Gordon at NH in '01. Nobody bitched then. How is this different? Nothing was wrong with what he did. He didn't deliberately crash someone on a fast track like Kyle Busch (Texas) and especially like Carl Edwards at Atlanta. Gordon crashed Bowyer at one of the slowest areas on a short track. If any of you have lost respect for Gordon, then you better have no respect for Earnhardt in the first place. 494. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly b4il3y, and I mentioned that. I'm no fan of Danica Patrick, and never really have been. In fact, I've referred to her as racing's version of "Team Obliterator". However, in fairness, I also said that she did absolutely nothing wrong in the situation at the end of the race. She got wrecked and tried to make it to the finish. She ended up oiling the track trying to get to the finish, but it was NASCAR's fault, not Danica's that the last lap wreck happened. In fact, the very fact that Danica's nearly stopped car was hit by more than one car illustrates the very point I've made about the fact that you can't have the green flag out when there are disabled cars on the track, especially when there are drivers still in them. That was worse than what happened back at Indy in 1971, for this reason. In 1971, there wasn't anyone in the three stopped cars that were piled into (Steve Krisiloff, Mark Donohue, and Bentley Warren), but at Phoenix Sunday, there was a driver actually in the car. That's another reason NASCAR deserves the harsh criticism that Brad Keselowski and others gave them in regards to officiating. How they could let the race finish with a car virtually stopped is mystifying, and completely uncalled for, and it's lucky that nobody was injured. That, to me, was worse than the crash that preceeded it, because it was completely avoidable. 495. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He deliberately wrecked Robby Gordon at NH in '01." Actually, no, he didn't. Robby spun Jeff around for the lead, and then Jeff showed his displeasure by bumping him under caution. He never wrecked him. Someone was saying it earlier, but the only other time I remember Jeff intentionally taking someone out was with Kenseth at Chicago in 2006. And even that was debatable as to whether or not it was intentional. Look, I'm gonna say my opinion of it for the final time. I understand what you guys are saying about Jeff's track record with this kind of stuff. It isn't a reoccurring instance. I could really care less as to whether or not Jeff gets parked (earlier I was saying he should be parked, but I've thought about it more and more and now I'm at the "I don't really care" point). But my issue is with Nascar. Nascar needs to make up its mind as to whether or not parking someone for retaliation is gonna be the thing from now on. They parked Kyle last year for it, seemingly because he kept showing up as the bad guy. But if you go back a year earlier, they didn't park Carl after the Gateway deal, even though that was his second offense of the year. So which is it Nascar? Are you gonna finally take charge towards coming up with and implementing rules, or are you just gonna keep the wishy washy game going? 496. ch posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor corrections: 10 - Semper Fi Fund / GoDaddy.com 16 - 3M / Filtrete 19 - Value Place / Plinker Tactical 30 - Swan Energy Inc. 33 - Circle Sport 39 - Quicken Loans Military Tribute 44 - No Label Watches 91 - Humphrey Smith Racing 99 - Fastenal / GearWrench 497. Anonymous posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nothing was wrong with what he did." There is nothing wrong with causing an accident and putting the lives of another driver(s) at risk? 498. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I've said before cjs, NASCAR made their bed and now they have to lay in it with their decision to not throw the caution not once, but twice. If you don't want drivers retaliating with each other after one car gets put into the wall and drops debris all over the track, throw the caution and summon that driver to the pits and off the race track. And nevermind the fact that Danica dropped oil on the track because I can understand NASCAR not seeing it in time, but she was sent into the wall and was limping around the race track, making her not only a danger to the other cars, but to herself in the process. I don't know if Brad will be penalized with one race to go for swearing in the media center, but I can understand his criticism of the sanctioning body for leaving the race under green twice at the very end of the race when there were wrecked cars on the track, one of whom retaliated against another and turned a 1-car wreck into a 4-car wreck, and the other was limping around and dropping oil and created a huge crash coming to the start/finish line (that involved her as well). That's my biggest point about why there shouldn't be any penalties against any of the drivers from this race. If NASCAR had done their job and thrown the caution both times, all that happens is Gordon and Danica have torn up race cars with no one else involved, and instead, for the sake of turning the race into a show, we have about 15 race cars torn up from two separate incidents. I only criticize Danica when she does something stupid, like when she got into Hornish on the backstretch and punctured his tire, but I'm defending her for not going to pit road because I think she wanted to finish the race since she came so close to doing so. Unfortunately, her car was in no shape to finish and she not only dropped oil all over the track, but she herself was involved in that same accident despite being at the very bottom of the track. I do disagree with her post-race interview however. She said that NASCAR wouldn't not throw the caution at the risk of endangering their drivers. I disagree strongly with this because they did just that twice in the final laps of this race. First by allowing a disgruntled driver with a wrecked car stay on the track and cause a bigger wreck, and then by risking the whole field's safety by having the leaders race full speed past a disabled car that also laid oil on the track. And it wasn't just this race, I remember them doing this at the end of the 2011 Coca-Cola 600 too when Jeff Burton spun out and stalled near the bottom of the race track and Brad was dropping debris on the backstretch because they knew that throwing the caution would mean another restart, which the leader Dale Jr. wouldn't have enough fuel to do. It didn't matter since Junior ran out of fuel anyways and was passed by Harvick coming to the line, but the fact is is that they aren't shy about leaving the race go green near the end of a race and put the drivers at risk for the sake of entertainment. 499. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright. I know you guys want him suspended but do you think NASCAR will? I honestly don't think they will but who knows i guess. I think 80% or higher chance he races at Homestead. 500. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't really have a dog in this fight, so here's my unbiased opinion based on what I think. Jeff Gordon: I never condone tearing up race cars. The crews spend way too much time fixing those things and Jeff has nothing to do with the work that goes into those machines. That said, Clint has been pushing Jeff's limits all season long, beginning with the race from the early portion of the season at Martinsville, where Clint took a potential win away from Jeff. They've had several more moments since then, including the last race at Martinsville, where they argued over space on the track. Wrecking him way the wrong way to go, but I think Jeff was trying to send a message to Clint and to the rest of the competitors saying that even though he's old, he's not washed up and won't allow anyone to push him around on the track. Clint Bowyer: It had to have been frustrating for Clint and his crew to have been mathematically knocked out of a title that they've been competing for since way back in February. I'm a firm believe that drivers should be able to handle a problem that they may have with each other. However, I'm not sure it's the team's place to start an altercation with another driver. But, I do guess I can understand that perspective since they're the people that work on the damaged cars, so I'm sure they didn't want Jeff leaving that track without knowing how they felt about him knocking them out of the title hunt. NASCAR: I don't know how they will handle this. They suspended Kyle last year for wrecking Ron Hornaday in another series, but they said it wasn't based on previous incidents, just that one time. I also remember Ryan Newman getting revenge on someone at Bristol a few years back and crashing a couple of guys who were competing for a spot in the Chase. Nascar didn't really do much then. I was actually more upset at how they officiated the final laps of the race. I may sound hypocritical because I complain about a lot of the cautions they call, but there was several instances today late in the going that I thought could have been handled better. To start, I think a caution should have been waved when Gordon initially cut down his tire and left debris. Then, when Danica wrecked late they really messed up. They first let it go because I think they hoped Danica would keep it going and get out of the way. By the time they realized that Danica wasn't going to get back driving, they had already thrown the white flag and I'm sure they wanted to ensure the race would go green. The biggest mistake they made was not spotting the oil that was in the groove. That, mixed with the stranded car of Patrick who had stalled on the inside, caused a huge crash that nearly took out Brad Keselowski. I know they didn't want to throw a caution before the white and extend the fuel window and they didn't want to throw one after the white and end it under yellow, but some decision should have been made once they realized Danica's car wasn't going to get back rolling. 501. Ryan posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Timing people Timing. A lot of you are trying to compare Gordon's actions to Earnhardt's at Bristol in '99. The Bristol '99 race incident isn't even close to the magnitude of what happened earlier. The only thing that race in '99 suggested that Earnhardt was back. Well Gordon isn't back and that race didn't have major points implications on it at the time either. Earnhardt was battling Labonte for the lead for one thing, and Gordon wasn't today. He also took out a contender in the title hunt and almost took out the points leader at the very end of the race. Gordon didn't use his head today and didn't give a damn either. "I'm Jeff Gordon, and I have different rules than everyone else." Not even close to the same... Earnhardt would have never done anything like that to ruin someone's title chances late in the year like that because most of the time he was running for one anyways. People did it to him... Rusty '93 Dover, Morgan Shepard '95 Talladega, Ricky Rudd '89 NWilkesboro... But he never once put himself in a position to screw over someone running for a title. Absolute BS by Gordon today. Very uncalled for and they should make him park for the rest of the year 502. John Royal posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dodge will win drivers championship and then pulls off from the sport. LIKE A BOSS. 503. Brandon posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Bush was ALREADY ON PROBATION when he crashed Hornaday. HUGE difference. That is why Gordon will not be suspended. 504. BON GORODN posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look it's over. Everyone calm down. Ryan you never really liked Gordon so you don't have a say and I love Gordon so I don't get a say either. However, I think everyone is blowing this way out of proportion including myself. Gordon got really upset and wreck Bowyer and shouldn't have but Bowyer had it coming in Gordon's eyes, sorry. BOY'S HAVE AT IT, right. And Bowyer had no chance at winning a title, I'm 100% sure of that. There's two sides to this sad story whether you think so or not. Gordon never ever does this, goodness I can't say this enough but he should not be suspended because HE TRUELY IS A RESPECTABLE DRIVER WHO NEVER EVER DOES THINGS LIKE THIS! That reason alone is why he shouldn't be suspended. In the end the only people that should really be mad are all the teams and drivers involved in that wreck. 505. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, I agree with everything you just said. First of all it was I who twice mentioned the Gordon/Kenseth incident at Chicago '06 (so 500 points for me, lol). I think that was payback, and unless I'm mistaken that was the last time he paid someone back on the track until today. And yes, Jeff bumped Robby under caution at Loudon '01 and received a 1 lap penalty as a result. Of course, that was back when NASCAR was fairly consistent with their rules and weren't afraid to penalize drivers during the race for violating the rules, and "having at it" with another driver under caution I think is a rule that should be enforced, which I think is why Jeff retaliated because the caution wasn't thrown. I couldn't tell you what his process was a that moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if he thought "This guy has been on my nerves all year, and after he puts me in the wall, NASCAR doesn't even throw a caution. That's it, I've had enough." I hate to keep beating a dead horse to death, but if NASCAR had thrown the caution after he got into the wall, I believe the worst that would have happened is Jeff would have driven up to Clint's car and maybe made some contact. If NASCAR wants to hand down penalties, they have to enforce the rules on the race track, and traditionally a disabled car creates a caution. Other than as a result of fan outrage, I think the reason why Kyle was parked for the Cup race at Texas last year was because of his actions towards lower-tier drivers in the Nationwide and Truck Series in recent years. Before the 2010 season, he basically put a bounty on Brad for past Nationwide incidents. Then he wrecked Brad, a Nationwide driver, later that year in the Nationwide race at Bristol. Then he wrecked Elliott Sadler, a Nationwide driver, the next year in a Truck race at Bristol by doing a similar move Gordon did today by waiting for Sadler before he wrecked him. So I think that after he wrecked Ron Hornaday, a Truck driver, in the Truck race at Texas last fall, while the race was under caution, NASCAR looked at it as Kyle's (at least) 4th strike (3 racing incidents, 1 provocative interview) against lower series drivers in a lower series in 2 years and felt the need to park him because of his repeat offenses. I don't agree with him being parked for the Cup race that weekend, but based on Kyle's past actions in the lower series, I can see why they parked him. I do think it was weak for NASCAR to give Carl a whopping 3 weeks worth of probation for his Atlanta incident (which ended well before the Gateway incident). He should have at least been on probation for the remainder of the season. I think you should at least give the drivers a strict warning after doing something so careless before you park them, and I think giving them a year's worth of probation is a justified punishment for a first-time offender, with suspension a possible consequence for violating their probation (which is why Kurt Busch was parked for Pocono this year, even though it wasn't for a racing incident). To be honest, I think the fact that the crews got involved blew this incident out of proportion. I think if it were just a racing incident, we'd be talking about how unnecessary Gordon's payback was, but I don't think we'd be discussing a possible suspension. I think the fact that the crews got involved and then Clint getting out of his car while on pit road (I thought that was illegal as well) sort of affected the way a lot of people see this incident because it added even more emotion to this incident. If not for that added emotion, I think this is just your average payback that unfortunately took out other drivers. But instead, a possible suspension is being discussed. I don't recall a possible suspension being discussed for David Gilliland for intentionally turning Montoya into the wall at Texas '08, or for Dale Jarrett when he intentionally stalked and wrecked Ryan Newman at Bristol '05 that also took out Kevin Harvick and ended his Chase hopes. What those two incidents have in common is that both paybacks were deliberate, both were unnecessary, and both were started and settled on the track. If the crews don't get involved, I think this is looked at strictly as a retaliation that went bad and was settled where it started: On the track. The fact that the crews got involved I believe created added emotion that otherwise wouldn't be there, and without it, I don't think suspension is even thought about. 506. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watching Brad's press conference rant, he was definitely pissed off about the other drivers. I know Tony Stewart was critical of Brad after Texas, but I don't know who else was upset with him. He was calling out the driving of the other drivers. 507. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) OldSchoolNascarDude1, I agree with everything you just said. I think Gordon was fed up with Clint, finally had enough, and decided to pay him back; I feel for Clint and his team because they were knocked out of championship contention the wrong way, which is by way of a wreck rather than just getting beat; and I think NASCAR did a very poor job managing the race at the end and created two big incidents that took out a lot of innocent drivers by not throwing the caution twice. I don't think anything happens from this incident other than maybe a fine for Brian Pattie's language and a possible probation for Gordon (which I would support). I thought this was just a racing incident that turned ugly with the brawl afterwards. I understand the crews' emotions because their equipment got torn up, but I think they should leave it to the drivers to settle it on their own. I hope Clint and Jeff can peacefully discuss this in the next few days because they are friends and they shouldn't let something like this hurt their friendship. "Kyle Bush was ALREADY ON PROBATION when he crashed Hornaday. HUGE difference. That is why Gordon will not be suspended." Exactly. I think if you're going to park a driver, you should at least give them a chance to be warned first before you do anything consequential. I would support NASCAR handing Gordon a probation because while you shouldn't encourage drivers to intentionally wreck each other on the track, you also have to give them a firm warning after doing something like this and give them a chance to change. It's a shame that this happened so close to the end of the season because now Jeff will have this hanging over his head for the entire off-season, but hopefully he can earn the respect of the other drivers and race fans by racing cleanly next season. I also think this will warn other drivers from messing with him because I think he has had enough with being run over and taken advantage of on the race track, and obviously isn't afraid to retaliate. At Martinsville 2010, he was seen as a pushover for not doing anything back to Kurt Busch, and now he's seen as "washed up" because he did do something back. There's just no pleasing his critics it seems like. I don't know if this has re-lit a fire under Jeff like how his scuffle with Jeff Burton at Texas did, but I think other drivers will think twice before messing with him because it's clear that he has a very long memory. 508. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I was going to mention DJ at Bristol 05 as well. That wreck was the epitome of malevolence. Result: 5 lap penalty. Let's move on. 509. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've never heard a driver swear as much as Brad did outside of the Busch brothers' radio transmissions. But it wasn't just swearing for the sake of swearing, he looked genuinely pissed off at how he was being treated for something that I didn't think was that bad last week at Texas. Hard racing shouldn't be ridiculed by the other drivers, and I saw a fire lit under Brad during his media interview. I see him carrying that fire through Homestead and maybe even throughout 2013 because he looks like a driver who has something to prove, and I don't think just winning one championship is good enough for him. 510. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly NicoRosbergFan. This was a racing incident that got blown out of proportion when the crews got involved and added extra emotion to this incident. Let the drivers settle this if they feel necessary to do so, maybe dish out a non-suspension penalty (I mentioned before that I would support a long probation), and like you said, let's move on. 511. BON GORODN posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul is 100 percent correct and that's where the discussion should end. 512. Schroeder51 posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The harshest punishment I've seen someone get from NASCAR is Jeff Purvis in 1998. At the Lycos.com 300 at South Boston (damn, I miss seeing the Busch/Nationwide cars at South Boston! They need to come back to tracks like that SERIOUSLY), Purvis was put in the wall by Mark Green. Purvis responded by rear ending Green on pit road and promptly slamming into him as he entered his pit stall. Purvis' crew proceeded to swarm out and the two pit crews fought, much like Gordon and Bowyer today. Purvis then jumped out and looked like he wanted a piece of the action too; Busch series officials had to restrain Jeff...Not only did Purvis get parked from that race, NASCAR DID make him sit out a race. Not just ONE race. FOUR races. And that was just in 1998. To be fair, what Purvis did was probably worse than what Jeff Gordon did in this race because he purposely got the pit crews involved and potentially could have harmed crew members by slamming into Green on pit road. I just thought I'd post that because it shows how much more harsh NASCAR were...less than 15 years ago! I actually posted a comment earlier in which I had a link to a video of that incident, but it hasn't show up...yet. 513. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha, I like how after he appealed the $5,000 fine, they doubled the fine to $10,000. Now THAT'S crazy! I think it was a combination of Purvis running into Mark Green on pit road and endangering crew members in the process, enticing a riot, and getting out of the car while on pit road in the middle of the race that led to NASCAR's decision. That bad combination may be enough to park a guy for a race in my view, regardless of his probation status, but FOUR races? Damn, that's pretty strict. But then again going back to the worth of drivers, considering how Purvis was essentially a little known Busch Series driver who committed three dangerous fouls in a span of about 2 minutes, I can see why NASCAR may have deemed him as expendable and delivered that penalty. I doubt they would have done the same to the big name Cup drivers, but that shows you how NASCAR has changed in their rules enforcement, for better or worse. 514. Schroeder51 posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think what was hilariously ironic was that Purvis would go on to drive for the very same team Mark Green drove for in that race, the #37 Brewco Motorsports Timberwolf car (in fact, his career pretty much ended behind the wheel of that car when he had that vicious crash at Nazareth where he blew an engine and Greg Biffle violently impacted him-he probably would have died if not for the HANS device). Never actually saw that incident before until cubs604 posted it about a week ago (somehow I never ran across that before on Youtube). I think Purvis'...err, incident is possibly the ugliest thing I've seen happen in NASCAR. That I know of that is. What Gordon did today isn't quite as bad as that. Still...damn, four races. I can understand a one race suspension, but wow. They would never be THAT harsh nowadays ever, like you said. I do doubt Gordon will actually get suspended...I've noticed the last three drivers (that I know of) to be suspended from a Cup race for rough driving were all suspended for actions in the lower series. Harvick got suspended in '02 for deliberately wrecking Coy Gibbs in a Truck race, Robby Gordon was suspended from the second Pocono race in '07 for spinning Marcos Ambrose at Montreal in the Nationwide series and then refusing to heed a black flag and promptly celebrating as the winner after the race, and Kyle Busch was suspended for...well, we all know. 515. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "HE TRULY* IS A RESPECTABLE DRIVER WHO NEVER EVER DOES THINGS LIKE THIS!" I NEVER MURDER PEOPLE! LET ME GO! /caps lock 516. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I disagree NadeauFan91. Eight hours or so after the race I understand what Gordon did was wrong, I still stand behind him though. But murder and what Gordon did aren't the same thing. Not even close. 517. Anonymous posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There was an incident in the very early days, where one driver intentionally wrecked another driver so that his team mate would win the title, but the driver on the receiving end died as a result of the crash. I'm only aware of this incident due to discussion on this website and can't recall all the details. What were the names of those involved? 518. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speedy Thompson wrecked Herb Thomas so that Buck Baker would win the title. 519. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#517), the incident you are thinking of happened in 1956 at the Cleveland County Fairgrounds in Shelby, North Carolina, involving Herb Thomas and Speedy Thompson. The back story for this event was that Herb Thomas was battling Buck Baker for the 1956 Grand National championship, and there were just four races left on the schedule (I don't know who was leading the points, but it sounds like Thomas might have been the points leader). The story goes that Carl Kiekhaefer, who owned the cars driven by Baker and Thompson, told Thompson to wreck Thomas to help Baker win the race and gain points towards the championship. Unfortunately, Herb Thomas was not only wrecked but he was seriously injured as a result of this crash. As a result, Thomas missed the remainder of the season and lost what would have been his 3rd NASCAR championship, which would have made him the first ever 3-time champion, and only raced three more times in his career as a result of this malicious attempt to win a championship displayed by Kiekhaefer and his driver (and true wingman) Speedy Thompson. So while Herb Thomas didn't die, his career basically ended that day as a result of this terrible crash. 520. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to the above, Thomas had to have a brain operation to survive. Kiekhaefer had leased the track and had it tacked on to the end of the season so that Buck would have the extra chance. 521. Anonymous posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the above information. I mentioned this incident, because I don't believe that intentionally wrecking another car should be permitted or tolerated under ANY circumstances whatsover. I'm sure that Carl Kiekhaefer never intended for Herb Thomas to be injured, but he was anyway. I wish that people (and NASCAR included) would look back on that incident and actually think about exactly what intentional wrecking opens itself up to. And of course, someone will mention that the cars of today are monumentally safer than the cars of 1956.....but I still don't believe that's any excuse. 522. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous: I agree with you on that. There's retaliation (whether real or imagined) like today, and then there's spite. Carl Edwards at Gateway was pure spite, whereas Jeff yesterday and the previously mentioned DJ were retaliation. Dale Earnhardt at Bristol in 95 is called racing for the win. 523. jabber1990 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle was suspended because he was kyle why was Kyle on probation? was it regarding the Darlington incident? 524. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Btw, how ironic that a Kevin Harvick win is completely overshadowed by the uncalled for antics of somebody else? It is usually the opposite. 525. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oldschoolnascardude I am angry with you and I think you know why. 526. DoucheVonSmitty posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "451. Ryan posted: 11.11.12 - 10:13 pm Time to give it up and give a new young gun a chance" Yes, because it's time for the Joey Loganos and Casey Atwoods of the world to hack it up in top equipment. Hater. 527. Schroeder51 posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Aside from Kyle Busch vs. Ron Hornaday last year, there's only one more on track scuffle I can think of more ugly than this in modern NASCAR times (IE the past 20 years). Jeff Purvis. vs. Mark Green at South Boston, 1998. If you want to see what happened there, here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QA6p70Nr2Y&feature=relmfu Skip to about 32 minutes in and watch the next 4-5 minutes or so. Purvis got parked for FOUR races for that...and that was only in 1998. 528. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if Gordon has police officers outside his house for the week? Are they gonna stand around him during the week as he is raking the leaves off Jimmie's yard, or while he is painting Jimmie's house, and I wonder if they will give him a motorcade escort while he drives to the convenience store to buy tampons for Jimmie's wife. 529. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I am disgusted with you. You are prostituting Dale's name with your attitude about this. To Schroeder, NASCAR also had nuts back then because it was run by Bill Jr. Brian doesn't have the parts to suspend Jeff over this, and he wasn't on probation, so he will probably get probation through next June as will all the employees on Jeff's and Clint's crews. 530. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 11.12.2012 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 482. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.11.12 - 11:45 pm "^ Almost every Nadeau Fan I have ran into or heard from (Maybe...three?) has such amazing views on these types of things." How am I supposed to take that? :P - ^Take it good. Take it very good and with a smile. I'm not being sarcastic either. - ' 505. Paul posted: 11.12.12 - 1:25 am (Last section of the post) I don't recall a possible suspension being discussed for David Gilliland for intentionally turning Montoya into the wall at Texas '08, or for Dale Jarrett when he intentionally stalked and wrecked Ryan Newman at Bristol '05 that also took out Kevin Harvick and ended his Chase hopes. What those two incidents have in common is that both paybacks were deliberate, both were unnecessary, and both were started and settled on the track. ' ^ I was a young fan in 2005. Young and stupid, and I thought that crashes made Nascar cool at that time. But even then, when I saw that go down, I believed that there should have been a penalty. In 2008, that incident still angers me because everyone simply overlooked it, and no one was penalized for it. I honestly believe penalties should have been levied for both situations, and if you approached me on either situation at any time, I would have said that penalties need to be handed out! ----- 511. BON GORODN posted: 11.12.12 - 1:58 am Paul is 100 percent correct and that's where the discussion should end. - ^ I fully disagree with this comment. - I'll be blatantly obvious, I think that Gordon will get a medium fine and a light, small probabtion until maybe March or April of next year. Bowyer will get the same. Something I just noticed, some of us have a habit of calling a driver by their last names, others, their first. But I don't think that I've seen anyone alternate both consistently...hmmm. 531. 1995z71 posted: 11.12.2012 - 8:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann's first career Start & Park. 532. jabber1990 posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I alternate between both 533. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those that are wondering, there was one other time that I know of that Jeff intentionally spun or wrecked another driver, but it was quite a number of years ago. He and Ryan Newman got into it at Rockingham in the fall of 2003 and Gordon spun Newman out in turn one. NASCAR gave him a 1-lap penalty for spinning Newman, and if I remember right, Gordon admitted after the race that he did it intentionally. And as for that incident in the rescheduled race at Loudon in 2001 between Robby Gordon and Jeff Gordon, remember that Jeff would have been wrecked had it not been for the #12 Penske car, driven by Mike Wallace. Jeff was passing Wallace when Robby drove through him, and it was Wallace that got the worst of it when Jeff got knocked into him. Otherwise, Jeff would have met the same fate in that incident. 534. Peter posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sit Gordon for next week and maybe for the first few next season. What people fail to see is the issue here is not Gordon extracting revenge on Bowyer; it's him blatantly disobeying NASCAR so he could and putting other drivers in danger 535. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To change the subject, the margin between the two leaders in both Cup and Nationwide is 20 points, yet Keselowski has to finish 15th or better, and Stenhouse needs to finish 16th or better. Any explanation? 536. Matt posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR doesn't need to park Gordon for next week. He said it himself. He's just had it with Bowyer. Are we gonna start suspending guys for showing emotion now? Jeff is by no means my favorite driver, but I'm proud of him for finally shedding the idea of him being a pushover the last few years. And to be fair, why in the world did Bowyer try to pass the 24 on the inside? He had to know that Jeff must've been unhappy, so why couldn't he just ride behind him for a lap? And since everyone is bringing up Kyle's incident, that was in a lower tier series, and like another poster already said, he had a history of getting into it with other drivers in Nationwide and Trucks. Plus he wrecked a championship contender. Neither Gordon nor Bowyer were in contention anymore. That's why I think Gordon shouldn't be suspended. /endrant 537. awesomegordonfan posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 536 comments already??? damn i missed a lot Bowyer was somewhat in contention, but even as a Gordon fan I don't see why he couldn't be fined or put on probation. However, I think that being parked for multiple races, spanning until next season, is not an adequate punishment. Kyle's was worse, and he already had a rep, which explains why he got punished like he did. Kurt also had a reputation before he got suspended earlier this year. @David: it's based on the wins. Since Stenhouse has more wins than Sadler, he can tie and win the championship. However, since Keselowski has less wins than Johnson, if they tie Johnson wins. 538. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I believe Stenhouse holds the tiebreaker over Sadler and Brad does not hold the tiebreaker over Jimmie, so that is the reason for the difference. 539. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Are we gonna start suspending guys for showing emotion now?" When your emotions lead to what Jeff did, then yes. Look, in the big picture of things, a Gordon suspension next week wouldn't mean much. He is not in contention for anything important. Just like suspending Harvick at Martinsville in his horrible '02 season had no big picture impact and suspending Kyle at Texas last year had no major impact. But it did send a message to those drivers that their egos need to be brought under control. It is embarrassing and every driver's nightmare to have a race go on without them. Let Jeff see that he is truly yesterday's news. As I said earlier, cjs was right and I was wrong. I guess watching Jeff suddenly come back to life to an extent in 2011 reminded me of Dale's 2000 season, and I wanted to see something good to see what might have been for Dale in 2001 (the real answer: not much, when you relegate yourself to wingman duties you have already mailed it in mentally, Jeff has been JJ's bitch for the past 5 years). I was blinded by that. I saw three throwback victories, Jeff using the bump n run like the old days to beat Kyle at Phoenix (irony alert! irony alert!), outlasting them at the second to last marathon 500 mile Pocono race, then the epic "refuse to lose" win over JJ at Atlanta. But the truth is he is not the driver he once was mentally. He is only capable of bringing the Old Jeff out every so often, like at Richmond. And with that gone, we can now see him for who he truly is. A spineless little worm. So Chad Knaus has suppressed Jeff from October 2004 to present? When your career is derailed by Chad Freaking Knaus, your former tire changer and an employee on the team YOU OWN A PART OF, and you either sit back and do nothing or are unable to stop it, then you are officially spineless. As I've said, it is obvious that the price he had to pay for his ownership share of the 48 team was turning his balls in to Rick. 540. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And one thing I would like to say: Jimmie Johnson handled himself like a true pro after this race. I know I have sent a lot of hate his way being so passionately on board with Brad over this title fight, but the truth is 98% of my hate towards the 48 team is towards Cheating Chad Knaus and the entire soulless culture of HMS. It still bugs me that JJ won't let us see his real personality on camera, but ultimately that is his perogative. I just wish we could see it. He is a hell of a driver, and a true professional. And better than Jeff. Yes, his stats are definitely inflated being at HMS, but he is a champion. And kudos to him for the respect and public admiration he has shown Brad, Paul, and the Blue Deuce team over this title fight. 541. 10andJoe posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #19 sponsor: Value Place #91 sponsor: Value Place Both carried Value Place logos but no noticable Plinker Tactical logos. 542. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #538 Of course. That makes sense, too. My bad. 543. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 12:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "I disagree NadeauFan91. Eight hours or so after the race I understand what Gordon did was wrong, I still stand behind him though. But murder and what Gordon did aren't the same thing. Not even close." Nope it has the same principles. If I don't murder people, yet I murder someone right now, should I be allowed to use the "But I'm a nice guy!" defense? Does that magically take away the fact that I did something very wrong? 544. Baker posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you serious Keselowski? WTF was that garbage? I know you are upset and rightfully so, but are you an idiot? Do you know Tony Stewart was once penalized 25 points for saying 1 minor curse word? If you just brought yourself a penalty then you don't deserve this championship. You had JJ on the ropes and you rant like this know NASCAR has a history or docking points for curse words? Plain stupidity my friend plain stupidity especially when NASCAR is always looking for ways to give Hendrick an edge. Until I know for sure Keselowski doesn't lose points over this I am peeved to no end. 545. Baker posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, again it is not the pay back that stuff is to be expected in NASCAR. The problem with what Gordon did is how he did it and where he did it and the timming of what he did. If that wreck had taken out Keselowski as well then you could view that as a blatant attempt to take out a teammates top competition after his bad day. Jeff Gordon was running with Bowyer and Keselowski when he hit the wall he knew right where Keselowski was running and chose to ignore it. He had multiple motives in his actions yesterday and should be punished for it. Its just like Paul Menard spinning to bring out a caution for Harvick to beat Gordon at Richmond. I said Harvick and Menard should have been punished and I'm sure you did too. Whether or not it was in his head to take out a teammates top competition it was more than plausable and Gordon should be punished for it. 546. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's exactly what my point and the point of view of numerous posters have been, Baker. There's no question Gordon had to draw the line with Clint Bowyer. That much is obvious. But how he did it was what I hve a problem with, as well as the potential for others to get caught up in it. Whenever there's an attempt at payback, what the drivers don't realize is anyone else that might get caught up in it. Again, I reference back to the 1997 incident at Bristol between Geoff Bodine and Jimmy Spencer. When Bodine wrecked Spencer, Steve Grissom became involved and actually injured his foot in that incident, yet neither Bodine or Spencer ever had any remorse for Grissom and his accidental involvement in that incident, nor was Grissom's involvement in that crash ever really noted. Say what you want about the Edwards vs. Keselowski incident at Atlanta in 2010, but nobody else was involved in that one, and that was as bad as it gets. But what happened between those same two drivers at the end of a Nationwide race at Gateway involved half the field. That's why you have to be careful when, where, and how you get payback. And that may be another reason I don't think Keselowski has this championship anywhere near wrapped up. Keselowski has made enough enemies that one of them might try to exact some payback this weekend at Homestead. Those enemies include, but are not limited to, Edwards, Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, and apparently Tony Stewart. There may also be others I don't know about. What if one of those drivers decided to extract payback in the most dramatic way possible, by knocking Keselowski out of the championship. Of course, if Jimmie Johnson has a problem, it won't matter, but Keselowski has made enough enemies, that one of them may try to wreck him to keep him from winning the championship. Another thing I noticed at Phoenix was the way that Joey Logano was racing Keselowski. Knowing they he would be Keselowski's teammate next year, Logano almost always moved over for Keselowski, since his own current teammate Denny Hamlin is out of the championship hunt. Could we see Logano become a factor in some way to help Keselowski win the championship? 547. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Something I just noticed, some of us have a habit of calling a driver by their last names, others, their first. But I don't think that I've seen anyone alternate both consistently...hmmm." I alternate first and last names for a lot of drivers, including Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Denny Hamlin, Joey Logano, and Aric Almirola. I also alternate calling Dale Earnhardt, Jr. by his full name, Dale Jr., and Junior. Obviously this discussion is going nowhere. The people who oppose a suspension have provided facts and opinions about why there shouldn't be one, and the people who support a suspension have provided facts and A LOT of opinions about why there should be one. I think it's utterly pointless for us to continue beating a dead horse to death on both sides because we're never going to get anywhere, sort of like the U.S. Congress because we're all set in stone about our beliefs and no one (aside from Schroeder51 and murb) is going to budge. I just want to reiterate my point for the final time. What Jeff did yesterday was unnecessary, uncalled for, and utterly immature for someone who has made a career out of not getting into stupid matters like this (I did find the irony in that Harvick won the race as a fight broke out). That said, I can't support a suspension if he wasn't on probation first, especially if this was his first true payback since '06 (I say "true payback" because he technically paid Kenseth back at Martinsville '10 by bumping him out of the lead, but he didn't wreck him). I think the drivers should at least be given a second chance before anything that serious gets handed down, unless of course they commit three serious offenses like Purvis did all at once (wreck on pit road, incite a riot, and get out of the car while on pit road), in which case I would support a suspension because I believe in both second chances and three strikes. I also gave you guys examples of how David Gilliland turned a car full speed into the outside wall and wasn't punished, as well as how Dale Jarrett stalked Ryan Newman before wrecking him at Bristol '05 that took out Kevin Harvick and ended his Chase hopes at the same time and wasn't punished off the track (he did receive a 5-lap penalty, not that it mattered because his car was torn up anyways). I gave these examples because they were both deliberate paybacks committed by two very calm drivers, one of which was highly dangerous and the other involved stalking a driver and taking out an innocent bystander. Both of these incidents started on the track and they were settled on the track, and I feel that's the way it should be. I know it sounds like I'm putting the crew members who work on these cars in a bind, but I think if drivers have problems with each other on the track then they should settle it there. I'm not saying they should wreck each other, but they should have the right to show displeasure towards one another on the track and I think that unless it's gone too far, it shouldn't be settled in the NASCAR offices, and I don't believe this went too far because it was a one-time incident. On that note, I would support a fine and a probation against Jeff (maybe Clint too because I don't like how he went running through the garage area while his car was on pit road, but for sure Jeff), and I'm sticking to it. You guys can continue going back and forth on this, but I'm done because I have nothing left to say other than repeating myself over and over again. I'll see you guys later when we start talking about something else, like the championship battle for example. 548. Scott B posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, where to start? Congrats to Harvick, though few people will remember who actually won the race. Punishment for Gordon? Yes, I could support a 1 race suspension. Not for retaliation, but for doing it the wrong way. Do I think that will happen? I'd say its less than a 50/50 chance, with a slap on the wrist probation & fine being more likely. The crew scuffle? Inconsequential. Swearing on the radios or in post-race interviews? Understandable, make the offenders drop a few dollars in the cookie jar and move on. The no-cautions at the end of the race? Blown calls by NASCAR race control. In particular, the second one with Patrick's car leaving fluid on the track. Even if NASCAR wanted to wait for Harvick to take the white flag to avoid another G-W-C, there is no way in hell they should have let the field run back through that mess at full speed. To me, this should actually be a bigger topic of discussion than the Gordon/Bowyer incident, because the sanctioning body has got to establish some kind of consistance policy on this if they expect to have any kind of credibility. 549. Jim Davis posted: 11.12.2012 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And that may be another reason I don't think Keselowski has this championship anywhere near wrapped up. Keselowski has made enough enemies that one of them might try to exact some payback this weekend at Homestead. Those enemies include, but are not limited to, Edwards, Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, and apparently Tony Stewart." I really can't see this happening. Any driver who even appears to be *proactively* taking someone out of the championship would be severely damaging his own career. Busch especially is on thin ice with sponsors for past incidents and Stewart is an owner who has to take the long term view. In addition, I think it is overstating the case to say that Keselowski has a lot of *enemies*. He's had a lot of run-ins with a lot of drivers but they're the sort of thing that gets put in the rear view mirror relatively quickly. He isn't Dale Earnhardt. More likely is the *reactive* type of incident where Keselowski gets into someone and that someone decides "he's had enough". Examples are Gordon and Bowyer recently and Reutimann and Kyle Busch last year. But Keselowski can afford to drive very conservatively to minimize the chances of this. Even if he does get into someone few drivers will think it deliberate given all that Keselowski has at stake. I'd put Keselowski's chances of winning the title at about 95%. 550. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFan you act like what you say about Jeff is new. Jeff isnt who he once was, who the hell is gonna argue that. Jeff is still a hell of a lot better than a lot of guys and untill Jimmie gets his 8th title no one else at Hendrick will win a title, my prediction. You can't ever argue against his career and what he's done for NASCAR over 20 years. Everyone is mad at him right now and lost all respect and I guess they should be but Jeff will rebound. He's still Jeff Gordon. Arguably Dale's biggest competition. What do you think Dale would say about Jeff's actions? 551. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And NadeauFan91 murder is not the same thing. Its the extreme. Stealing cookies from the cookie jar is the other extreme. Its bad but not bad really. And I think its important to note that what Gordon did deserves punishment no doubt about that but its his first serious offense and guys like Logano and Almorola are just gonna have to wipe the dust and move on as mean as that is to say. Look how Tony Stewart used to be. The man was a menace and you couldnt touch him, every now and again he still is, should he get parked, no. Should Dale Jarrett been parked in 2005 at Bristol, no. Harvick and Kyle Busch were repeat offenders and young and immature most of the time. They needed to change. Jeff doesnt. And sorry DaleSrFanForever I loved Dale Sr. but he shouldve been parked more than any driver in NASCAR history. It doesnt matter if he just wanted to rattle some cages or didnt mean it. He still wrecked a lot of people. Your buddy Geoff Bodine can attest to that. 552. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now you're extremist BON GORDON. The only time Dale should have been suspended was Richmond 86. Other than that, he was pretty good about just wrecking more car. The problem with Shrubby is that he wrecked Hornaday while ALREADY ON PROBATION. As a Jeff fan, you disgust me. 553. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am too extreme but disgust come on. That's extreme. Im not gonna change my views on Jeff and this situation and neither is anyone else. None of you should. I know I'm in the minority but I don't care. It's a debate and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm done with the issue, dont hold back your cheers. Haha. 554. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you guys met me you would understand. I love Jeff Gordon. My friends and everyone I know say I should marry him. Lol. Hell I've met him in person. I almost wet my pants I'm willing to give him a second chance. If he did do what he did again than I would be extremely mad at Gordon. I would park him for 5 races. He should be the leader of NASCAR. HE' s a legend and a sports icon. What he did yesterday was wrong but park the man....no way 555. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In other news my dad's friend knows how much I like Alan Kulwicki. He gave me an autographed card. Just gave it to me. I was so happy. He got it signed by him at Pocono in 1990 or so. Great part of Racing history and happy to have in my collection of NASCAR stuff. 556. Daniel posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Homestead entry list: -Ricky Stenhouse Jr. in the #6 -#10 TBA -Trevor Bayne in the #21 -Scott Riggs in the #23 -Ken Schrader in the #32 -Reed Sorenson in the #79 -Jason Leffler in the #91 557. ch posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 19 had the Plinker Tactical logos in the usual places (side and rear) as well as Value Place on the hood / lower quarter panels. So... 19 - Value Place / Plinker Tactical 558. Anon posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just want to point out that since Tony Gibson started working with Danica Patrick, her results and performances have been better. A lead lap finish and top 25 at Texas followed by what could have been a lead lap finish in the top 15 at Phoenix if not for her last lap wreck. 559. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reading some F1 forums it's hilarious how they think stuff like the Gordon-Bowyer incident happens all the time and drivers paying back other drivers happens every week. 560. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not racing news, but this really annoys me. Apparently a lot of 49ers and Rams players had no idea that ties existed in football. Seriously?? Don't you guys know the rules to the very sport that you get paid to play? I've followed this sport my whole life and I learned at a young age that ties exist in the NFL. cjs, you've previously talked about how Bobby Unser prided himself on knowing all the rules before each race, something that I think is an unheralded trait as an athlete and a competitor because knowing the rules is key in not creating penalties and beating yourself out of a race. Maybe if the players knew that there were ties in the NFL, they would have played to win during the 15-minute overtime period rather than playing for a 2nd overtime period. Right now, the 49ers are tied with the less-talented Seahawks at the top of their division with 6 wins apiece. If the 49ers lose their division by 1 game, it'll be because they weren't playing to win in that 15-minute overtime period, which wouldn't have happened if the players and coaches had known the rules going into overtime. By not knowing the rules, he 49ers cost themselves an easy win against a below average Rams team, and might have cost themselves the division going down the stretch as well. 561. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I had a discussion about players not knowing about ties with my mom today. She was talking about how everyone should know that NFL games can end in ties after Donovan McNabb infamously didn't know that ties existed a few years ago. 562. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I'm not sure the 49ers weren't trying to win that game. If that were the case, they wouldn't have rallied late in the fourth quarter to begin with. If anything, the 49ers should have LOST that game two or three times in overtime alone, because the Rams simply outplayed them all day. It was the Rams that committed the costly penalties, one of which took a sure field goal off the board, and another that took a made field goal off the board. You must also remember that the 49ers played most of that game without their starting QB, so they were lucky to even be in OT to begin with. They tried to win, but were outplayed. It's the Rams that have to be kicking themselves. But that tie actually keeps the 49ers ahead of the Seahawks by half a game, and certainly also means tht they won't have to deal with any tie-breaking scenarios down the road, because there shouldn't be another tiw this year. After all, Sunday's was the first in four years. And yes, I mentioned that Bobby Unser always prided himself on knowing what the rules were, because he admitted so, and in fact, also admitted to studying the rules more than anyone else. And anyone that knows the rules has a built-in advantage over anyone that doesn't know the rules, or how to take advantage of them. 563. Anonymous posted: 11.12.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That race had a WWE feel to it - And not in a good way 564. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale never idled around the track like a weasel multiple laps down to wait on a guy who bumped him. Everything he did was battling for position, usually the race win. Was he dirty at times? Yes. Did he cross the line? Yes. But what Jeff did was way beyond that. And here is what nobody is mentioning: IT WAS JEFF'S FAULT HE WAS IN THE WALL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! This gets casually overlooked, but on NASCAR Now today, they showed the whole incident. After bumping fenders with Jeff coming off two, they were side by side down the back through the dogleg, then entering three Jeff clearly tried to turn him head on right then, burying his nose in Bowyer's fender, then lost control his own stupid self and went into the wall. IT WAS HIS FAULT TO START WITH! What a tool. 565. Anonymous posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR will not sit the 24 out. The difference between this incident and Kyle Busch, is Kyle is CONSISTENTLY on probation for "Actions deemed detrimental to NASCAR" (or whatever BS term). Yes I know #24 has had a few bump ups and probations but look at his slate over the course of 20 years versus someone like Kyle Busch over the past 5 years (Joe Gibbs seat time). Did they sit out Carl Edwards for the Atlanta incident with Keselowski? Nope. Carl had a relatively clean slate. Although I will admit the incident in the nationwide series (same year) was a bit uncalled for, but I guess that was deemed "hard racing". This is what you get with "Boys Have at it". Either Way NASCAR is WRONG according to the fans. Half the fans will boo if he isn't taken off because they will deem it as favortisim, half the fans will boo if he is taken off the track because they will deem it as NASCAR taking too much control and not letting the drivers have at it. About like talking to your wife, either way you answer your always wrong as the husband (not to be sexist or politically incorrect but I think you get the idea). 566. Ryan posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) from Bon Gordon "Look it's over. Everyone calm down. Ryan you never really liked Gordon so you don't have a say and I love Gordon so I don't get a say either. However, I think everyone is blowing this way out of proportion including myself. Gordon got really upset and wreck Bowyer and shouldn't have but Bowyer had it coming in Gordon's eyes, sorry. BOY'S HAVE AT IT, right. And Bowyer had no chance at winning a title, I'm 100% sure of that. There's two sides to this sad story whether you think so or not. Gordon never ever does this, goodness I can't say this enough but he should not be suspended because HE TRUELY IS A RESPECTABLE DRIVER WHO NEVER EVER DOES THINGS LIKE THIS! That reason alone is why he shouldn't be suspended. In the end the only people that should really be mad are all the teams and drivers involved in that wreck." I could care less if Jeff Gordon wins another race OR not. This isn't about liking a driver or not. There's really only a handful of drivers that I pull for out there anyways. So I'm being very objective when it comes to this. I never thought I would have felt a tiny bit sorry for Jeff Gordon the way he dominated the mid to late 90's, but I have the past few years, mainly because I thought he got the short end of the stick with JJ and Cheater Knaus. But yesterday was just uncalled for. You ask any unbiased or objective person what they think about his actions and the majority will tell you that he was very much in the wrong. The timing of the matter was really bad and he should be parked for a race. He'll get a hand slap since it's at the end of the year and nothing really happened to the points leader. Bowyer did nothing wrong to him this race anyways and the banging and hitting was mutual at Martinsville. He just has an ego about him that he feels no one is supposed to race him hard and for positions. To say that Bowyer didn't have a "chance" at the title is wrong as well. He actually wasn't far behind Johnson as the points ran and BK was about 30 points ahead of him. Would Bowyer win? More than likely not, but you never know just like yesterday. Again, people keep talking about Dale Earnhardt, but he never would have done anything like this. He was smart enough not to try and hurt someone intentionally at the end of a race at the end of the season. Most of his run ins were on short tracks anyways and a little love tap here and there. He never "waited" on someone to catch up so he could wreck them. If he did hit someone it would be later down the road and not where it could hurt other drivers. Someone tell me where Earnhardt did something like that to a championship contender at the end of the year? You guys just bring up Earnhardt like he would be ok with this. He wouldn't be. You all need to get in the trenches more when you talk about him because he wouldn't have done this. Especially that late in his career like Gordon is. A very unclassy move by a very frustrated and egotistic Jeff Gordon. 567. jabber1990 posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) wasnt Didnt Jeff have the black Flag? 568. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, you're right when you bring up the Gordon - Newman incident at Rockingham in 2003. I had forgotten all about that. Gordon did intentionally spin Newman out, and then was black flagged by Nascar. DSFF, I completely agree with you on your "98% of my 48 hate is towards Chad". That's exactly how I feel. I've stated this before (mainly on the Texas race page, I think), but Chad's obsession with his race team has always turned me off from him. To me, he just seems like he has no life other than his race team. If I was a crew member at Hendrick Motorsports, I would not want to be on the 48 car. I would much rather be working for a non-dictator crew chief like Steve Letarte or Kenny Francis than Chad. And finally, that Purvis incident does rank right up there among ugly scenes in Nascar. But this Gordon - Bowyer incident actually reminds me of another ugly scene where teams have literally fought each other, and that's the 2004 Chicago race. Tony Stewart straight up ran over Kasey Kahne on the restart, causing a huge wreck. Then, both the pit crews immediately started brawling in the pits. Tony ended up winning the race, climbing out in victory lane to a huge chorus of boos. Obviously, it wasn't a payback situation like the Gordon - Bowyer one, but it's another example of crews getting caught up in the heat of battle. 569. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon has turned to the dark side and become Darth Lucifer. 570. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just thought of something: The 24 car is supposed to have a special 20 Year Dupont Anniversary paint scheme this weekend at Homestead. Hypothetically, if Jeff does get parked, then someone else will have to drive it. A. W. K. W. A. R. D. 571. Baker posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS what you are saying about someone possible taking a cheap shot at Keselowski so he doesn't get the championship would be the lowest moment in NASCAR history, so I highly doubt that happens. If such a thing did happen and it was a Hendrick affiliated driver Sam Hornish should find JJ and drive right into his door and right through the wall to send a message than everyone is tired of the crooked way Hendrick and NASCAR run things. Also it would be the end of me every watching NASCAR. No more diecast, No more posters, No more stickers, No more tickets, No more radio or TV time for NASCAR. Not one more single cent of my would ever be spend on watching NASCAR if they let someone get away with something like you are suggesting. 572. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon has been fined $100,000 and was docked 25 driver points for intentionally wrecking Clint Bowyer. And if you add-in the fact that he fell from 5th to 30th after the two wrecks, he lost 50 points from the race at Phoenix. So he actually leaves Phoenix having lost more than a full race's worth of points. 573. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penalty did not fit the action, but whatever. Hope karma bites him in the ass at Homestead. 574. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Kes got fined for having his phone in the car. WTF? Daytona 500 anyone? Another note, Bowyer is NOT under probation. 575. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Penalty did not fit the action" He lost more points than he would have lost if he had been parked for next week. Did you expect NASCAR to park him for multiple races or something? 576. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, just one, just like Kyle. Cause I like to think that one day NASCAR officiating will be consistent. 577. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, there are reports on Twitter that the Truck Series will indeed race at Eldora next year. They just have to get the safer barriers in. It looks pretty good though. 578. joey2448 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon gets fined and probation - understandable. Bowyer's crew chief Brian Pattie gets fined and probation (because he cursed on TV) - understandable. Keselowski gets fined and probation for having his cell phone in the car (something he was NOT penalized for in the Daytona 500) - WHAT???? #Inconsistency 579. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just an excuse to fine him for off-TV cussing. They prolly wanted to give him a real points penalty but they would've had to deal with the shitstorm that would've ensued. 580. Jim Davis posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Keselowski gets fined and probation for having his cell phone in the car (something he was NOT penalized for in the Daytona 500) - WHAT???? " Could NASCAR have added the rule after Daytona? 581. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fine, probation and 25 points penalty for Gordon is understandable. As low class and despicable as his actions were you can count on one hand the number of blow-ups like this that Jeff's had and they tend to come only after someone really pisses him off. Fining Brad for having his cell phone in his car is complete BS, it's not like he's using it while he's driving and why didn't they come up with that rule after the Daytona 500? 582. Peter posted: 11.12.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha no penalty for Bowyer..take that Gordon you jackass 583. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim is correct. After the Daytona 500, NASCAR made a rule about no cell phones in the race cars. I don't understand the penalty though because if anything, Brad's tweeting during a red flag is good for NASCAR and maybe they should be paying him for the extra publicity. NadeauFan91, I think the penalty was fitting because he lost 25 points on the track following the two crashes, and lost another 25 points from the penalty, giving him a net loss of 50 points which is more than one full race. It's not the same as a suspension, but it has a similar effect due to the similar net point loss. New14 & 88Fan, I think NASCAR took into account Jeff's clean history when they considered the penalty. If he had a rocky history like Kyle Busch, they very well might have parked him. But like Dale Jarrett from Bristol '05, Jeff has a very clean history and although his actions were careless and without class, it was a very rare occurrence and therefore not warranted of a suspension. I thought the penalty was a little harsh just because he earned a net loss of more than a full race's worth of points, but considering how a suspension was also a possible penalty, I'll take it and move on. 584. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are the total Chase points under my system: 1. Jimmie Johnson - 477 2. Brad Keselowski - 477 3. Kyle Busch - 393 4. Clint Bowyer - 364 5. Kasey Kahne - 363 6. Matt Kenseth - 342 7. Denny Hamlin - 339 8. Greg Biffle - 268 9. Jeff Gordon - 263 10. Tony Stewart - 256 11. Martin Truex, Jr. - 246 12. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 171 I have factored in Jeff's penalty (it would have been 45 points under this system). To do a quick review of the Chase cutoff picture, Kasey Kahne was in the top 10 after Richmond, so he did not need a wild card. Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch were 11th and 12th, respectively, so they took the two wild card positions. Kevin Harvick was 83 points out of 10th, back in 13th after Richmond, so he missed the cut entirely. However, if Harvick had made the Chase, he would have scored 280 points thus far. 585. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I thought the penalty was a little harsh just because he earned a net loss of more than a full race's worth of points, but considering how a suspension was also a possible penalty, I'll take it and move on." My thoughts exactly. Just take it and move on. 586. Thomas posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon walks away with not even a slap on the wrist--as expected, sadly, considering NASCAR's limp wrists in the tower every week (they make Randy Bernard look intelligent). Pattie's penalty is probably for not better controlling his crew, so that's understandable. What I'd like to know is when did NASCAR ban having electronic devices inside the car? The last I'd heard was they were okay with it as long as it was only dug out during a red flag period like Keselowski did yesterday. My guess is it's a smokescreen penalty for swearing in his media center interview (he was fortunate not to get roughly a 5 point penalty for that--about the equivalence of Jr.'s penalty for swearing in victory lane). Probably the only reason Keselowski escaped the points penalty was that the interview was not a part of the TV broadcast. 587. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's another thing I remembered today about the whole Gordon-Bowyer mess, and it has to do with what happened after the first Martinsville race, where Bowyer divebombed Gordon in a move that never had a chance to succeed. Those two had a brief, ahem, conversation after the race. It turns out, and it was actually said by car owner Tommy Baldwin, Jr. a week or two later on Wind Tunnel that Bowyer flat-out lied to Gordon's face. Certainly, wind of this somehow found it's way to Gordon, and I don't think he forgot about that, either. You don't forget it when you're flat-out lied to, and I don't think he did, either. The plain truth is that Bowyer's been living on the ragged edge of something like this happening all year, and it finally came to him, because he's ruffed up a few drivers' feathers. But I wouldn't be surprised, now that Gordon has the green light to race at Homestead, if Joey Logano and/or Aric Almirola take some kind of action, particularly Logano, based on his comments, so watch for possible fireworks if and when the 24 is around the 20, and possibly the 43 this weekend. And Baker, the difference between Keselowski and Johnson is that Keselowski's ruffled a few feathers in his career, and it's quite possible that one of the drivers who's dander he's raised might try to get even, though except for possibly Tony Stewart, none of those are under the Hendrick umbrella that I know of, but someone like Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, or Carl Edwards might try to extract some payback. And except for a run-in or two here and there over 11 years, Johnson hasn't ruffled any feathers in his career. Certainly the Hendrick cars will race Keselowski harder than the others, but if Jimmie Johnson finishes 25th or worse, it won't matter, because he wouldn't get enough points then to overtake Keselowski, even if Brad doesn't start the race. The only driver under the Hendrick umbrella that Hornish might want to settle a score with would be Danica Patrick, who continues to have issues with Hornish. 588. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thomas, they banned cell phones and other devices like that inside the cars after the firestorm of controversy that Brad's cell phone (as well as those that others were carrying) created around the nation in the aftermath of the Daytona 500. 589. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There goes NASCAR insulting our intelligence again. We all know the fine is because of the press conference. Just say so, don't make some lame ass excuse. I swear NASCAR has the worst management ever. Do they really think we are stupid? And Gordon gets probation until Dec 31. THAT IS ONE RACE JACKASSES! We are not stupid. 590. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I posted a lengthy comment responding to cjs's post #587, among other things. It hasn't shown up yet unfortunately, but it should get through cyberspace within a few hours. DSFF, I completely agree about the length of the probation. I think it should have been at least six months because we are so close to the end of the season, so the probation pretty much means nothing. On the flip side, maybe NASCAR decided that they didn't need a lengthy probation because the penalty handed down was pretty severe, albeit without a suspension attached. It's not official, but it's being reported that Mid-Ohio will replace Montreal as the 3rd road course on the Nationwide schedule next year. That race will be interesting to see because the track is fairly narrow and has a lot of slow braking points that could take out some of the inexperienced road racers. Plus, there's a slow turn that comes at the top of a hill at one section of the track that could be bad for some drivers. Based on my experience racing on that track on NASCAR Racing 2003, that is a difficult corner that I find very hard to perfect from within the cockpit's point-of-view. 591. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul and DSFF, when has NASCAR ever carried a probationary period over from one year to the next? I certainly can't remember them ever doing that. And while I do believe that the $25,000 fine given to Brad Keselowski is most likely for the post-race verbal missiles Keselowski threw at NASCAR, it's also true that he broke the rules by having a cell phone in his car during the race. 592. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski wasn't throwing verbal missiles at NASCAR, he was calling out the other drivers. 593. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I remember that after the Martinsville race, Clint was being followed by reporters when Jeff came up to him and took him aside so they could discuss the incident. I just re-watched the episode of Wind Tunnel when Tommy Baldwin was the guest, and yes he did say that Clint Bowyer lied to Jeff about the divebomb going into turn 1, saying it was because he got pushed from Ryan Newman. There is a great picture of the incident that I think proves that it was Clint Bowyer's fault for the wreck, and not Ryan Newman's. If you jump to 2:25 in this video, you will see a still photo of Clint's car clearly up beside Jeff's on the frontstretch with Newman's car already about 1/2 to 3/4 car lengths behind Clint. http://www.speedtv.com/video/wind-tunnel/wind-tunnel-tommy-baldwin-part-1-1553909885001/5/ Now, put yourselves in Jeff Gordon's shoes for a moment, and I'm not talking from a career standpoint, I'm talking from a Gordon/Bowyer rivalry standpoint. Gordon got wrecked by Bowyer at Martinsville on a late race restart, having led 321 laps in that race and having a car that should have finished no worse than 2nd. Then at Martinsville a few weeks ago, Jeff had a top five car and was literally run into the wall by Bowyer going down the straightaway. Jeff retaliated by hitting him back, but in the process damaged his own car and fell back to 8th place at the end. And then at Phoenix, Clint gets into Jeff's left rear and puts him into the wall on the backstretch. Jeff makes contact with Clint and for the second week in a row, does more damage to himself with the first retaliation than he did to Clint. That boiled over and he pretty much just said "F*** it, he's done," and wrecked Clint in turn 3. What hasn't been discussed in this is that Clint was told by his spotter to take it easy trying to pass Jeff, and Clint dove down low to pass him and was practically asking for it. I don't know why no one else has mentioned that because I think if Clint tries passing Jeff on the outside, he doesn't have his car torn up and is able to finish the race. But because he dove to the inside of Jeff, just like at Martinsville, he got himself wrecked. This to me is the equivalent of two kids messing with each other on the playground. You have the calm and quiet kid in Jeff Gordon, and you have the cocky new kid in Clint Bowyer. For the sake of illustrating this picture, let's put them on the kickball field. Jeff essentially kicks the ball and runs towards first base where Clint is, and Clint blocks Jeff as he's trying to get to second base. They laugh about it, but because Jeff didn't do anything, Clint thinks he can get away with this behavior in the future. The next time Jeff rounds first base, Clint blocks him again, only this time Jeff moves him out of the way. Then the third time, Clint tries blocking Jeff, Jeff moves him, and Clint sticks his foot out and trips Jeff. Well now by this time Jeff has had enough of this guy and so he punches him right in the gut and Clint goes down. Unfortunately for Jeff, a teacher spots him and gives Jeff detention for the next day, while Clint, who instigated everything, gets nothing because he never actually punches Jeff. So in my eyes, if you supported Jeff in this whole ordeal, you were rooting for the kid on the kickball field who stood up for himself against the brat who was picking on him. But if you were against Jeff in this whole ordeal, you were rooting for the brat on the kickball field who thought he could get away with anything. I don't know about you guys, but I believe in standing up for oneself and not backing down from people who are taking advantage of you, and that's why I supported Jeff this whole time because I saw him as the kid on the kickball field who had finally had enough and let the little asshole have it, even though he got caught in the end. 594. 10andJoe posted: 11.12.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >So in my eyes, if you supported Jeff in this whole ordeal, you were rooting for the kid on the kickball field who stood up for himself against the brat who was picking on him. But if you were against Jeff in this whole ordeal, you were rooting for the brat on the kickball field who thought he could get away with anything. "He bullied me and broke my nose, so I broke his legs and the legs of two other people, to show that I could stand up to him." Yeah, that's totally justifiable... 595. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I think it was a combination of having a phone in his car and the post-race language that gave Brad a $25,000 fine, but because the language used in the media center wasn't technically a rule, they just said because he had a phone in his car was the cause of his fine. Don't be surprised if NASCAR makes a rule outlawing language in the media center as well. 10andJoe, I never once said it was justifiable was Gordon did. As a matter of fact, I have used words like "careless", "unclassy", and "immature" to describe what he did to Bowyer. But if you look behind the message I was trying to give, you'll see that while Jeff's retaliation was uncalled for, it was totally understandable given the history between those two this season. If someone is doing something bad to you, chances are you'll want to do something just as bad, if not worse, to them. To take a quote from one Dennis Hamlin: "You throw a rock, imma throw a concrete block back." 596. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Keselowski wasn't throwing verbal missiles at NASCAR, he was calling out the other drivers." Yep. He was calling them out because they criticized him for the way he raced Jimmie in the final laps at Texas. He never said anything about Nascar in his media center conference. 597. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ReutAndJoe said it for me. I knew NASCAR wouldn't do anything of consequence to Gordon. They are as spineless to Gordon as Gordon is to Chad Knaus, who is also treated in a spineless manner by NASCAR. NASCAR even gave Jeff a personal escort back to his bus, like Jeff is JJ's personal escort. Ah, the circlejerk of NASCAR life. The deal with Brad is he called out the whole sport, the drivers as well as NASCAR's spineless manner of handling unecessarily excessive payback (see Edwards, Carl, remember him?). Yeah, there were no specific darts thrown at NASCAR, but he gave a vivid (and accurate) picture of a sport in need of any type of leadership. He also did so in a cruse and profane manner. That is what NASCAR is mad about. The cell phone rule was in effect at Daytona and hasn't changed. The only thing that changed is Brad pissed NASCAR off. Don't treat us like we are idiots. We know what the deal is. Just say it. 598. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only person I can recall calling out NASCAR yesterday was Ryan Newman, and that was for the non-caution for Danica Patrick's crash and subsequent laying down oil all over the track. That's another story that I think we're forgetting because we've focused so much time on this silly "should or shouldn't NASCAR suspend Jeff Gordon" debate. There were about five cars that were either torn up or destroyed because NASCAR opted not to throw a caution for a wrecked race car on the track. Nevermind the fact that there was oil all over turn 4 and the front stretch, a car hit the wall and was laying on the track with the driver's side door facing traffic. I guarantee you that if that crash had happened on lap 19, NASCAR would have thrown the caution. But because it happened on lap 319, NASCAR let the race go green. You wanna talk about consistency with penalties, how about being consistent with making the correct calls during the actual race. 599. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "'He bullied me and broke my nose, so I broke his legs and the legs of two other people, to show that I could stand up to him.' Yeah, that's totally justifiable..." Not quite the analogy he made. First off, unless I missed something, Jeff had no idea Logano and Almirola were there. He certainly wouldn't want two other innocent drivers to be involved in his retaliation. Second, Paul said it would be like a punch in the gut, not broken legs. But enough of that... Did anyone notice that the top two in this race are reversed from the Phoenix race in February? I just thought that was worth a mention. 600. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I've noticed that over the past couple months you have been taking frequent shots directed at Gordon at every opportunity you can get. First you were downgrading his historical ranking in comparison to his teammate, then you were calling him JJ's "wingman", and now this. I think you are just looking for an excuse to talk bad about him, since that's pretty much all you've been saying on this page. And now that Gordon has finally done something in bad character, you haven't let up once. If I could use a metaphor based on your immature "circlejerk" line, the fact that he has done something in bad taste has you "jacking off" all over this story. 601. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I honestly forgot Hamlin finished in 2nd, as I thought Kyle was able to hold onto that position on the final restart. In fact, all four RCR drivers (if you include Kurt Busch) had pretty good days as three of them had top ten runs and Jeff Burton was in the top 15 for most of the race. 602. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, can't most of us agree that it will be extremely funny to (hopefully) see a pissed off Brian France handing Brad the trophy next week? I sure would love to see it. Yeah Paul, I agree with what you just said. It's just so frustrating to see their inconsistency, not only with penalties and fines, but with calls on the race track. Elliott Sadler gets black flagged for "beating the leader to the line" on the restart at Indy (even though the 3 car behind him was pushing him - there was nothing he could have done). Fast forward a few months, and Jimmie CLEARLY beats the leader to the line at Texas (unassisted), yet they don't even bat an eye at it. Fast forward another week later to Phoenix, and you've got more consistency issues, this time with cautions. They throw a caution for "debris", but when there are TWO crashes later in the race (Jeff wrecking himself on his first attempt to wreck Bowyer, and then Danica's crash), they don't do anything, leading to a major pileup at the checkered flag. It's so annoying. I know I've been talking about this a lot on this page, but I just can't get over how inconsistent they are with their rules. Like I was saying before, in a perfect world, Darby and Pemberton would be out of there and they would put in a person who has actually been in a race car before to make calls for the race. But it's the Brian France era, not the Bill Sr or Bill Jr era, so it won't happen. And it just makes me sick. Also, I just want to commend my fellow posters on here. This race page has shattered any other race page this year as far as number of comments goes, and there's been some great discussion and debates. We should all be proud of ourselves. Especially if you go look at some other forums and read their takes on how this race played out. We've got a good group here. 603. 44andJoe posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >If someone is doing something bad to you, chances are you'll want to do something just as bad, if not worse, to them. To take a quote from one Dennis Hamlin: "You throw a rock, imma throw a concrete block back." And then they throw a grenade back, you throw a HE bomb, they throw a nuke... 604. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree murb. I hope nobody has any hurt feelings over what's been said on this page. Whether you support a certain issue or are against it, as long as you are passionate about what you are saying it adds a new dimension to these pages. Getting back to your point about NASCAR having someone who has actually been in a race car making the decisions, I go back to a previous point that cjs made and I would consider Wally Dallenbach for the job. Kyle Petty would be pretty good too. Both of them are very opinionated and show little to no bias in their analysis as commentators. They also have been in auto racing for most of their life and would know what drivers want from their race directors, and I don't see either one of them making calls that would specifically benefit or hurt certain drivers because, quite frankly, they couldn't care less about what the drivers and fans think of them (Wally more so than Kyle). 605. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And then they throw a grenade back, you throw a HE bomb, they throw a nuke..." Chances are if one person throws a grenade, the other won't be able to throw a HE bomb or a nuke because of injuries or death. Speaking of consistency, a little username consistency would be nice 10/44andJoe :) 606. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like 44andJoe better than 10andJoe. Unfortunately, when I see the number 10 now, I just think of you know who. When I see 44 I actually think of Reutimann, not only because of his current piloting of that number, but because he also replaced DJ in that car in 2008 after he retired. And instead of saying "Forty Four and Joe", I've just been saying "Four Four and Joe". It rolls off a lot smoother. 607. David posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chances are if one person throws a grenade, the other won't be able to throw a HE bomb or a nuke because of injuries or death." Unless he forgets to pull the pin, in which case he's screwed. 608. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's almost a shame that Reuti is no longer in the #00 car. I always that the "Double-O and Joe" name that went with it was pretty cool. I kinda wish I had come up with a cooler username, but by this point I feel sorta stuck with it. Meh. 609. murb posted: 11.12.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Wally and Kyle would both be good picks if they were to grow a brain and put a former driver up there. Here's some other guys who I thought of that could be good at it: -Bobby Hamilton Jr (no nonsense type of dude) - Chad Little (last I heard was that he was actually a part of doing this type of work with the Nascar Mexico Series) - Jimmy Spencer (yeah, I know he's an idiot, but when I watch his rants he actually seems like he might be good at this type of thing - plus, we wouldn't have to listen to his dumbass screaming and yelling on tv anymore) 610. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bobby Jr. is an interesting one since he's not a big name. Often times it's the athletes that aren't big names that are the most qualified because they get the job based on their qualifications rather than who they are. That being said, I think he's had too many financial troubles in recent years to worry about NASCAR. Chad Little has been key in the NASCAR Mexico Series, but I don't know how well he has done in working south of the border. I think Jimmy Spencer could be good as well because when he's not being a cartoon character, he actually is fairly interesting to listen to and pulls no punches (sometimes literally) on top drivers like Johnson, Brad, and Junior. 611. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just got home and heard the news. Penalty definately fits the crime. I think too many points but whatever, at least he's racing and he can begin his race back to forgiveness and the great leader he was/is. Jeff will be driving with a pep in his step. I'm sure NASCAR will adress to Clint and Jeff to be clean or miss the 500 or something, I dunno. They dont want another debacle like what happened at Phoenix. 612. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a tweet from last year's Cup Rookie of the Year Andy Lally: "You would think with Sprint as the sponsor that it would be mandatory for all drivers have phones in their cars... #JustSayin" Knowing how much NASCAR cares about publicity and money, I'm surprised they haven't mandated this already. 613. cjs3872 posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well BON GORDON, I don't think we've heard the last out of this, but if I were Gordon, I wouldn't worry about Bowyer as much as I would Joey Logano, or even Aric Almirola. Remember that they were the real victims of that crash, and I know Lognao had some harsh words for Gordon afterwards, so as I mentioned in a previous post, there could be fireworks if and when Gordon gets around not just the 15 car, but also the 20 car (Logano) and even the 43 car (Almirola). 614. Paul posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Bowyer will do anything to Gordon, nor do I think Joey or Almirola will do anything either. Bowyer won't do anything because he responded to a question asking if he would retaliate, which typically means that he won't do anything. Joey won't do anything because he used Twitter to express his displeasure rather than saying nothing, plus he doesn't have it in him to retaliate. Normally I would be worried about Almirola because he has been very quiet about this, but the fact that he wrecked trying to avoid the wreck and wasn't taken out the same way as Joey was tells me that he won't do anything either. I think Joey has the most to be angry about because he had nothing to do with it, but I can't see him retaliating, especially against one of his favorite drivers growing up. Dale Jarrett said something pretty interesting on NASCAR Now today. In response to the negative tweets made by Joey and Denny Hamlin (both of whom were Kyle Busch's teammates when he was parked) directed at Jeff Gordon, he basically said that they don't know how lucky they are to be racing against someone like Jeff Gordon, adding that not only is Jeff one of the greatest drivers of all-time, but he is a very clean and methodical driver who on most days demonstrates how to act as a champion on and off the track more than anybody. He also said that 20 years from now, they're going to look back and think how lucky they were to be racing against a driver like Jeff Gordon, and how saying they've lost respect for him because of one incident is a silly thing to say. 615. BON GORDON posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thats exactly what Ive been trying to say Paul. What Gordon did was wrong, no doubt but these drivers wont remember Jeff for this one incident. They will mostly remember the positives and the awe of racing the #24 Chevy. Jeff and Bowyer will work this out and become friends again. Jeff will talk to Logano and Almorola as well. I don't see anything more coming from last race but a lot of awkwardness in the garage. 616. 18fan posted: 11.12.2012 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed Paul. I don't think either Joey or Aric have it in them to take out Jeff on purpose. And if Bowyer takes him out, I think NASCAR will take action. 617. cjs3872 posted: 11.13.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But what if someone like Martin Truex, Jr., who's had his own problems with Gordon in the past (does Sonoma, 2010 ring a bell?) takes action in Bowyer's defense. Certainly Mark Martin's not likely to, as it's not in him, I don't think. And while I don't think Aric Almirola has it in him, certainly Joey does, and Denny Hamlin may, as well as Kyle Busch, o has nothing to lose, or even Marcos Ambrose, if he wanted to pay Gordon back in Almirola's defense. 618. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 1:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well cjs, if you remember at Sonoma '11 Jeff passed Truex late in the race for a top five position. In the booth, Adam Alexander mentioned their run-in from a year earlier, but Kyle Petty said that he knew Truex wouldn't do anything to Jeff and he was right as Truex let Jeff pass him cleanly. Because of that, I don't think Truex does anything, although it is interesting that he and Jeff will be battling for 10th place in the points at Homestead. I HIGHLY doubt Marcos Ambrose will do anything to Jeff, especially since his teammate was involved by trying to avoid the wreck, unlike Logano who had nowhere to go. I could see Logano doing something because he was completely innocent at Phoenix, but I don't think he will because he would be wrecking one of his heroes. And I don't think Denny or Kyle will stand up for their teammate on the race track either because they didn't stand up for him in 2010 when Kevin Harvick was messing with him. If Bowyer was still at RCR, there's a good chance that Harvick would do something to Jeff, but since he's not I don't see the likelihood in a retaliation by any of the three parties. I think Logano would be the most likely, but I don't think he would wreck one of his favorites growing up. 619. 44andJoe posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Speaking of consistency, a little username consistency would be nice 10/44andJoe Heh. Well, I'm trying, but when typing in my username my fingers follow the muscle memory, and out comes the old one. I have the same problem whenever I change a password for something; for a couple of weeks I wind up having to re-enter after following habit! >It's almost a shame that Reuti is no longer in the #00 car. I always that the "Double-O and Joe" name that went with it was pretty cool. Heh, I agree. Double-O was nifty. (Especially Double-O Seven.) As for Gordon's penalty, I, personally, still believe that a one-race sit-out should have been done. Not because of the retaliation, but, rather, because of how it was carried out (and when - wrecking somebody after you've been black flagged should be a MAJOR no-no). But I don't think it's a huge issue; the points penalty should get the point (ba-dum tish) across. 620. cjs3872 posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except Paul, that Logano does not have that view of Gordon any more, at least for now. And remember that this will be his final race for Joe Gibbs Racing, so he won't have anything to lose as far as that goes either. Of course, with him driving for Roger Penske next year, the last thing he'd probably want to do is to go to Penske with something like that over his head, because I don't exactly think that Penske is the kind of guy that would stand for something like that. Aside from Rick Hendrick (despite what many posters seem to think) and the Wood Brothers, the classiest car owner in NASCAR is Roger Penske. In fact, it's Penske's operation that Hendrick has always tried to model his own organization after, and Penske has so much admiration for Hendrick that when Ryan Newman won the Daytona 500 for Penske for his first win in that race after 37 years of trying (he first entered a car in the Daytona 500 in 1972 with Mark Donohue), Penske actually wore a Hendrick Motorsports hat in victory lane that night. 621. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You idiots are all acting like man lives by blood alone. 622. Jocke Persson posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I knew how to do it, I would definitely make a video of Clint Bowyer running along in slow-motion to the song 'Chariots of Fire' by Vangelis. It would be EPIC. 623. startandparkfan posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keslowski fined $25k for having his cell phone in car. lol. 624. Baker posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The penalty was a joke. It that were any other team than Hendrick the driver would be sitting out Homestead. NASCAR is not inconsistant so much as they are bias I mean look at there so called inconsistencies over the years they always favor Hendrick from cautions to penalties to probabtion to anything NASCAR feels give Hendrick the upperhand. If it weren't for Brad Keselowski I was at my tipping point and on the verge of leaving NASCAR for good. I'll stick to my much better, more exciting, and better managed World of Outlaws. 625. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just wish they had let Bowyer get to Gordon during the post race fight between the 24 & 15 pit crews because if Bowyer had gotten to Gordon he would have beaten the living hell out of him. 626. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "if Bowyer had gotten to Gordon he would have beaten the living hell out of him." I wouldn't bet on it because although Clint has the size and youth advantage, he had already been running a long distance without stretching and after sitting in a car for three hours, so I'm sure he was pretty sore by the time he got to Jeff's hauler. Plus, I know that Jeff doesn't have a reputation for fighting, but he had to be restrained from getting involved in the fight. I don't know how well he would have done in the fight, but he looked like he wanted to. cjs, I agree about Rick Hendrick. I think he is one of the classiest owners in the garage, as seen in the Hendrick 200 special they showed the other day, as well as the fact that Roger Penske, another classy owner, worse a HMS hat in victory lane at Daytona in '08. He wouldn't wear that hat for any reason if he didn't respect Mr. H. 627. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "wrecking somebody after you've been black flagged should be a MAJOR no-no" You do have a point about the black flag. I previously mentioned that the black flag is basically a 3-lap warning, but that still doesn't give him the right to wreck Bowyer because he was warned about it. But another thing that could have factored into their decision is that NASCAR never got on the radio and told Jeff to come down pit road, which Robin Pemberton admitted was a mistake afterwards because they didn't do enough to prevent this from happening. cjs, I forgot to add this in my last post, but I wouldn't be surprised if Roger Penske has reached out to Joey during this time and told him not to retaliate. As you said, Penske is friends with Rick Hendrick and has a lot of respect for him as well, and the last thing he would want to do is have a driver with a retaliation against a HMS driver hanging over his head as he joins the team. It wouldn't be under his watch, but I think that that wouldn't be good for the Hendrick/Penske relationship, and it wouldn't surprise me if Penske reached out to Joey and basically told him to let this one go. And as far as Joey having lost respect for Gordon, I wouldn't look into that one that much. He was mad at Rusty Wallace after the Nationwide race at Dover earlier this year because Rusty "had the nerve" to call him out for wrecking a lapped car, and yet he hasn't shown any disliking towards him since. And also, I'm sorry but if you lost all your respect for Jeff Gordon after this ordeal, you are either overreacting or don't know what you're talking about because on any given Sunday, Jeff is one of the few drivers I would want to be racing side-by-side with because I wouldn't have to worry about him making a mistake and wrecking me. If you race him clean, he'll race you clean, and that's all I can ask for from a fellow competitor. 628. I Love Japan posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't have a dog in this fight so i really don't care who gets wrecked as long as no one gets hurt. I have no problems with what gordon did. I like both Bowyer and Gordon. So, honestly the whole incident gave me a big laugh. Gordon didn't need to wreck him and yeah it was classless. But honestly it was funny as hell, and I gained respect for Jeff. I never said I was classy. Is Gordon washed up? Maybe. But who cares. It was controversy and I lvoe controversy. I also was very happy with Johnson's msfortune as he is extremely annoying. I hate seeing the same guy win over and over. So my take? Gordon didn't need to do it, but I have no problems with him doing it. 629. Scott B posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the penalties were pretty much what I expected (except the cell phone penalty to Brad, which I agree is really not about him having a cell phone). So a couple of replies to previous comments and I'm ready to move on. 1.) About the epic Bobby Allison vs. Curtis Turner on-track demolition derby... Bobby and Pops not only patched things up and raced without incident the next week, they actually became quite close friends. This was before drivers had huge entourages traveling with them, before twitter, when they had to deal with each other one on one, face to face. It will be interesting to see how well Jeff & Clint can put this behind them (more in the long term than short term, I don't expect any fireworks between them at Homestead). 2.) Dale Sr. didn't hate Geoff Bodine because he was a Yankee. He hated Geoff Bodine because he was Geoff Bodine. The Intimidator had no problem being a mentor to Steve Park, a Long Islander. 630. Talk4Tar posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who cares about this Jeff Gordon / Clint Bowyer thing. A couple millionaires decided to run after each other. It's like a Soap Opera, with cars. I want to talk about BK2! Even if bad luck intervenes and Brad doesn't win the Championship, how amazing has this season been? Brad went from being a driver with two top tens in his entire first season in Cup racing, and just two years later is not only a legitimate Championship contender, but the favorite going into the race. I can't think of a Championship driver who has had more detractors and doubters than Brad has had since he made it to the Cup series. Michigan has always been considered one of the ultimate states for creating tough and talented drivers. And that's where Brad cut his teeth. I can recall watching Brad in a factory stock at the Dixie Motor Speedway, despite his youth he still worked on his own cars and wasn't afraid to mix it up with drivers much older and much larger than Brad. All the drivers weigh the same in the car, Brad was taught, and he didn't take crap from anyone. Brad also has given back to tracks where he made a name for himself over the years, and as an active member of the Michigan short track community, we all are so proud of Brad and everything he has accomplished. Win or lose on Sunday, Brad will always be a champion in my eyes. But I still hope Jimmie chokes it away. 631. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you Scott B. Geoff Bodine would have hateable no matter where he were from. It just made for a juicy media angle to have the loud mouth, smart mouth, big mouth, thinks he is so smart from the state of New York Geoff Bodine against the doesn't say much 9th grade dropout who speaks perfect American Southern (which is to say his gammer ain't all that well) Earnhardt. As for the darts I have taken at Jeff, I don't like the son of a bitch. Never have. I have seen through his phony public persona from day one. He has been coddled from day 1 and has a huge sense of entitlement. Plus he will rub fenders with anyone, but anytime somebody touches him it is like he has been violated, he whines like a little girl. And he whines about everything. He can dish it out but can't take anything. The fact is Jeff, from a personality standpoint, is EVERYTHING I don't like in people. Then he throws that squeaky clean act on. Kiss my ass. BUT............ I have a ton of respect for him as a racer. Do I think he is overrated? Absolutely. He is 3rd all time in wins, but he has driven for HMS his entire career. And ever since '95, they have been bringing bazookas to knife fights (with the exception of '00 and '03). But he is still one of the best. As good as JJ? Nope, but an all time great too. And let me ask you this Rainbow Nation: who is the only person on this board who thought Jeff would make the cha$e? That's right, me. He is the second best driver in the field, behind only Jimmie. Even while he was going through his Wile E Coyote luck, I knew he'd get it. He is that good. But not Top 5 all time. 632. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Talk4Tar. Brad has long since clinched driver of the year IMO. Yes I want him to take this title home in the worst way, and I hope it is the start of a new dynasty. To come from where he was just 2 years ago speaks to his character and belief in himself. And it has been an amazing ride. I go to his driver page occasionally and read all the comments from 2010 and early 2011 when even the biggest Brad fans (like me) were pressing the panic button. What a ride and what an individual. I just love this entire team and am looking forward to pulling for them for years to come. Man I wanna see him hoist that title trophy, but like you said, even if something happens, I will be equally proud. 633. Smiff_2 posted: 11.13.2012 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Cooper, Talk4Tar and all the other Brad fans: how jacked up are you right now? I dunno about you guys, but I'm f***in' PUMPED! This is INCREDIBLE! Just one week from now, we very well could be sitting here revelling in Brad's first title! I'm not counting the chickens before they hatch or nothin', but....we're definitly sitting pretty right NOW....and it feels awesome! Go Brad! You've got this, man! 634. David posted: 11.13.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for the darts I have taken at Jeff, I don't like the son of a bitch. Never have. I have seen through his phony public persona from day one. He has been coddled from day 1 and has a huge sense of entitlement...The fact is Jeff, from a personality standpoint, is EVERYTHING I don't like in people. Then he throws that squeaky clean act on. Kiss my ass." Wow, you sure fooled me. "Plus he will rub fenders with anyone, but anytime somebody touches him it is like he has been violated, he whines like a little girl. And he whines about everything. He can dish it out but can't take anything." Then you go on to say you RESPECT him as a racer?? I don't know about you, but if I were a racer or just a fan, I wouldn't care about how many wins and championships a driver has, I would only care about how he races me or others. By the way, my top 3 favorite active Cup drivers: 1. Jeff Gordon T-2. Clint Bowyer (Yeah, that's right) T-2. Brad Keselowski This list was not changed due to events that occurred last Sunday. 635. BON GORDON posted: 11.13.2012 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha. Listing to DaleSrFanForever talk is funny. His take on Gordon is the most rediculously funny thing I've ever heard. Not true but funny. 636. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They've just released the 2013 Nationwide schedule. Here are a few changes to the schedule: - Iowa will be moved back two weeks, with Charlotte and Dover each moving up a week - Mid-Ohio is officially listed as the replacement for Montreal - The fall races at Charlotte and Kansas swap dates 637. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I respect his ability to drive a race car. He is one of the Top 11 drivers ever. The stuff I've mentioned are character flaws. 638. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you telling me to kiss your ass or Gordon? I don't know why you would be saying that to me since all I did was point out the fact that you have been jumping all over him for the better part of this page, as well as the last few weeks when we have been discussing him. Also, you weren't the only person who thought he would make the Chase, you were just the first one to type it out back on the Watkins Glen page. And for the record, a few weeks ago I went into great detail about how much Dale liked Steve Park, regardless of the fact that Steve was from Long Island. Funny how no one even referenced or responded to that comment a few weeks ago, and now that a few people have questioned Dale's on-track character, it's being used as a defense mechanism as a way to prove he wasn't prejudiced against Yankees. 639. rtcrules posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure if this has been mentioned but if I was Penske Id field 2 more cars to S&P and maybe even ask the 22 to do it too. 640. BON GORDON posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How the hell do you know Jeff's character. Thats why I love Jeff. He's very competitive and that sometimes makes him to be seen as a hypocrite or that he contradicts himself. Earnhardt was like that, Rusty Wallace was like that, and Tony Stewart is a bigger hypocrite than anyone. But what I love about Gordon and all of these other drivers are that they are very nice and giving people outside of the race car. I dont hate any driver. Jeff made a mistake, we all make mistakes and we pay for them. Leave Gordon and his character alone. He's a hell of a lot better of a human being than most people including myself. I hope I'm more like Gordon someday. 641. BON GORDON posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And let me tell you something else DaleSrFanForever....every human being on the planet has character flaws including you and I. I can also promise you there are many many people out there who have 100 times worse character flaws than Jeff Gordon. His foundation and the hospital, all the humanitarian work he does, he almost always gives interviews to the media, and races clean all the time. Sunday was bad like everyone says but stop wasting your time and bash one of the millions and millions of other people who truely have major character flaws. 642. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just have one hypothetical question for people on both sides of the discussion: Would you feel the same way if it were the other way around and it was Clint Bowyer who intentionally wrecked Jeff Gordon, in the same manner as Gordon wrecked him? Personally, I would feel the exact same way. Clint is also a clean racer with a good name and history, and I would give him a pass this time around because he would be a first-time offender. And I say this knowing fully well that Clint is as big, if not a bigger whiner than Jeff Gordon. You wanna talk about Gordon whining about the way other drivers race him? How about when Clint was whining about David Stremme, a Nationwide driver, raced him "too hard" for 2nd place at Nashville, a Nationwide track, in a Nationwide race? Or last year at Atlanta when he blamed Montoya for not getting out of the way and him sliding up into him and wrecking himself and ending his Chase hopes? Or at Martinsville earlier this year when he threw Ryan Newman and David Reutimann under the bus and blamed them for his moronic divebomb on Jeff and Jimmie that took all three of them out (funny how you call Gordon a whiner, and yet he never whined once about that incident while Clint Bowyer did)? Whether you were supportive or against a suspension for Gordon, I would hope that you would feel the same way if the shoe were on the other foot because both Jeff and Clint have good names and are clean racers, and both also have a tendency to whine when other drivers race them too hard (I would rank Clint higher on the whining scale than Jeff). 643. cjs3872 posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well said about Jeff Gordon's character, BON GORDON. As great a driver as Gordon has been over the years, Gordon, like Arnold Palmer, may actually leave a lasting legacy that's more important off the track than on it through his numerous off-track endevours, charitable work, and philanthropy. You don't do the things that Gordon has done off the track without being a person of great character. sure he made a terrible mistake, and I think he got of the hook lightly, but his off-track deeds may live long after his career ends. And Paul, not only did Dale Earnhardt, Sr. like Steve Park, he respected him as a competitor, as well. The most notable case of this came at the 2000 fall race at Richmond, when Park, driving Dale., Sr.'s #1 car, held up Earnhardt long enough for Gordon to win the race and deny Dale, Sr. a $1 millon bonus. Many people thought Dale, Sr. would be upset at Park for, in effect, denying him a million dollar bonus for winning. But when asked about it, Dale, Sr. not only wasn't upset, he gave Park some admiration by saying that Park did exactly what he paid him to do, even if it cost him $1 million. And by the way, after the season ends, I'm going to start doing some blogs about, among other things, next season's Cup lineup and a series of "best ever" lists, including best drivers in the sport's history, and the best drivers at certain events. I may break the "best ever" groupings in groups of 10, going from 40-31, 30-21, 20-11, and finally 10-1. I may also be doing some other things as well, so you may se quite a number of blogs up from me over the next 2-3 months. I have not decided how often I'll be putting up the blogs. I will, however, be explaining why I list the drivers on the "best ever" lists where I do by bringing up stats and all-time career rankings, and other accomplishments, when necessary. And again, I thank NicoRosbergFan for showing me how to become a blogger on this site. 644. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Are you telling me to kiss your ass or Gordon?" Gordon. I like you Paul even if we are on totally opposite opinions on this issue. I'm glad you are on this board. 645. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I just have one hypothetical question for people on both sides of the discussion: Would you feel the same way if it were the other way around and it was Clint Bowyer who intentionally wrecked Jeff Gordon, in the same manner as Gordon wrecked him?" I would feel the exact same way about Bowyer. Obviously there wouldn't be the mountain of past accomplishments, feats, incidents, and issues to sift through like we have with Gordon, but I would be calling for his head no doubt. One other difference: since he isn't a Hendrick driver, I would be feeling like a bit of justice had been done yesterday when NASCAR announced Bowyer was suspended from the Homestead race, which NASCAR absolutely would have done had the roles been reversed. Right is right and wrong is wrong. How many times have I expressed my outrage about the Richmond '11 race when Jeff was not only robbed of a win, but robbed in one of the most tasteless ways there is with RCR's slimey antics. The 29 and 27 should have both been docked points. That was bullshit, Gordon should have won. "How the hell do you know Jeff's character." I watched lap 311 of this race. I'm not saying he does only bad stuff all the time, but to stoop to that weasel like level says a lot about a person. Especially when you look at the whole picture. Had Jeff just ducked in behind Bowyer going into 3 after Clint's initial rub and bumped him then instead of trying to turn him head on right there, putting himself in the wall (is he a shell of his former self or what?) he wouldn't have had his day ruined. He screwed himself, then screwed Clint, Joey, Aric, his fabrication shop in the 24/5 facility, and the car he co-owns by giving Brad some points going into the finale. And we haven't heard an apology yet to anyone except a weak one for Joey and Aric. "The most notable case of this came at the 2000 fall race at Richmond, when Park, driving Dale., Sr.'s #1 car, held up Earnhardt long enough for Gordon to win the race and deny Dale, Sr. a $1 millon bonus." Well that and Jeff's highly illegal carburator that cost him 100 points afterwards cost Dale the win and the $1 million. And people wonder why Jeff is only 11th on my all time list. "And I say this knowing fully well that Clint is as big, if not a bigger whiner than Jeff Gordon." First off, nobody whines quite like Jeff. But I agree about Clint. Plus he should've been fined for not threatening to kick Gordon's ass at some point in the future. We hear a lot about how Clint is like the everyman. Well most people would be vowing to beat the shit out of him at some point. Or sacrifice him to his Ministry of Darkness (where are you B Lowe?) 646. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I remember watching that Richmond race a while back. The broadcasters mentioned during the race that they felt Steve Park was holding Dale up, and then after the race Dale gave a very classy interview saying he was proud of Steve doing his best to hold position against him. I don't think he once mentioned the $1 million bonus in his interview, which I think tells you how Dale cared more about racing than the money it included, although by that point in his career he was in great shape financially. I'll admit I took a few cheap shots at Dale on this page, but in terms of being classy in his interviews following a great hard-fought battle, Dale was a class-act no doubt about it. A lot of drivers today could learn something from Dale about how to be gracious in defeat, as well as in victory. 1985 Indianapolis 500 winner Danny Sullivan was a guest on Wind Tunnel on Sunday, and when asked about his thoughts on the Gordon/Bowyer incident, he brought up an incident he had with Earnhardt in an IROC event. He didn't mention the race, but I know from his stats that it was at Nazareth in 1989. He said that he and Earnhardt made some contact and he felt like Earnhardt took advantage of him on the track, and he admitted to have run into him going into the next turn and sent Earnhardt into the wall. Sullivan went on to win the race, and he said afterwards Dale came up to him and said something along the lines of "That was a hell of a race." Looking back on that today, that's pretty cool to hear someone getting sent into the wall during a race, and still having the class to congratulate the driver that put him in the wall on a great race. DSFF, we may be on opposite sides on this issue, but one thing we both share is passion for our beliefs. I like the fact that you feel so strongly about your opinion on Gordon and this intentional wreck, even if I disagree with it, because it forces me to be work extra hard to get my voice on this issue heard and let everyone know why I disagree. I think it's discussions like these that bring out the best (and sometimes the worst) in all of us on this board, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Besides, it's far more fun leaving comments knowing that not everybody agrees with you. I like you too DSFF, and I think your opinions, whether I agree with them or not, always get people's attention in these hot discussions. I know I said earlier that this board was turning into the U.S. Congress because everybody was bickering at each other, and I want to apologize for that because there's far more passion, energy, and respect for one another on this board than in that zoo. 647. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Or sacrifice him to his Ministry of Darkness" Haha I don't know about that, especially since Clint Bowyer and The Undertaker have ZERO in common with one another. I can't sake someone who gets fake tans and bleaches their hair seriously in a fight, let alone a sacrifice. 648. BON GORDON posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hahahahahaha only 11th. Only person I know to rank Gordon out of the Top 7. Overrated no way, underrated, hell yea. Jeff Burton, Kevin Harvick, Matt Kenseth, and Kenny Wallace have all said he is underrated as well. Hahahahahaha I can't stop laughing. Overrated hahahahaha. Okay buddy whatever you say. 649. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good point Bon Gordon. A lot of "hahaha"s. Very good point. 650. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, that thing with Earnhardt and Danny Sullivan and Dale appreciating the good racing is something that Brad definitely has. Brad, even in defeat, loves good, hard racing. Just look at his interview from Watkins Glen. 651. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He's doing his Kenny Wallace impression. HAHAHAHAHA!!! Nothing is official, but it's said that Front Row Motorsports is interested in retaining both David Ragan and David Gilliland. Both drivers have also expressed interest in remaining with the team in 2013, and hope to continue helping that organization grow. I've noticed some improvement at FRM this season on the non-restrictor plate tracks, as they seem more capable of finishing in the top 20 or 25 this season than they were last season, and I think both Davids have done their part behind the wheel. No word on whether or not Josh Wise will return. 652. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree 18fan. One of the reasons why I root for Brad is because that's exactly how I would want to be raced. I don't want people to roll over for me, nor would I want to roll over for them. Not only that, but regardless of how he races or gets raced, he has no complaints afterwards and has a very positive attitude. He's a rare gem in the current generation of drivers whose attitudes are more closely related to CART drivers from the '90s than traditional NASCAR drivers, and I hope more drivers of the future have that same attitude. I've said this before, but I'm very impressed by the attitudes of some of the younger drivers in the Truck Series today. Guys like James Buescher, Parker Kligerman, Nelson Piquet, Jr., Joey Coulter, Ryan Blaney, and Kyle Larson have great attitudes and don't seem to mind when they're being raced hard on the track (Piquet especially impresses me because he doesn't have that sense of entitlement that most open-wheel drivers have). Those six drivers may be the future of NASCAR, and by the looks of things, the future looks bright. 653. Talon64 posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) well that was sure a boring weekend wasn't it? lol What Jeff Gordon did was garbage, but I've still got the same respect for him that I did before. This is a trait that I've come to possess thanks to years of being a Tony Stewart fan and dealing with the idiotic things he's done in his career. Like intentionally turning Bowyer at Pocono and collecting Carl in 2006, which is in the same wheelhouse as what Gordon did here. Or turning Kenseth in the Daytona 500 that same year which could've caused an even bigger incident and also won the Hypocritical Move Of 2006 award after the comments he made about others' stupid driving earlier in Speedweeks. I'll always stick by him, but I'll also be realistic about what he does. 25 pts and $100k is the most severe punishment they could've given Gordon without suspending him, so I think it was the right call. I was kind of hoping he'd get suspended in the hopes that Regan would drive the #24, but it was the right call. There's some extra karmic justice in that it puts Gordon behind Bowyer's MWR teammate Truex for 10th in points now, when it looked like Truex had little shot of finishing in the top 10 for the first time in his career. Clint Bowyer earned some respect from me for the 100 yard dash he pulled to get to Gordon. I guess he's finally stopped thinking about that deer. Kevin Harvick's comments in the post-race media conference reminded me why I like him. I think RCR's going to miss Harvick just like RFR is going to miss Kenseth. Harvick and Childress have had their issues, but Harvick's been the backbone of that team just like Kenseth has been for Roush, and while the Dillons' potential could pan out I don't see Kurt Busch ever being that for RCR. He has as much talent for being a hindrance as he does on the race track. Burton's going to be done in a year or two, and Menard's just a serviceable driver who brings sponsorship. And Keselowski' post-race conference were amazing. He needs to start getting the respect that he deserves for being just a hard racer, not a dirty one, especially since that hard racing, along with the guy's off-the-board intelligence (except for the cell phone in car, you need to know the rules!) is about to get him a Cup championship that most of his detractors don't even have. 654. cjs3872 posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the thing about the carburetor issue at Richmond was that they had been using the very same carburetor quite a number of times that year and it was never ruled illegal. What happened was that Gordon had made some harsh comments about the safety of the cars not long before that race, especially in light of all the stuck throttles that year, and NASCAR didn't like his comments and wanted to make an example of him. They used the carburetor issue to make their point. That's why I worry about what Brad Keselowski said in the post-race press conference coming back to haunt him, because he blistered both the drivers and NASCAR itself, and that could come back to haunt him if the title fight's close and he finishes with the leaders and has to have his car inspected after the race. But it was widely believed that if Park had not raced Dale, Sr. hard, that he would have caught Gordon anyway, and there wouldn't be as much controversy about the whole carburetor issue with Gordon's car in that race. And Paul, add to those six drivers the group of young Nationwide drivers I've ben talking about for some time now, the Dillon broithers, Trevor Bayne, Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., and Cole Whitt, who I've not given up on, even though he's not going to be in a full-time Nationwide ride next year. However, I'm not quite as high on Joey Coulter as you seem to be, although I might be wrong about that. 655. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, don't feel too bad about Regan Smith not getting in the #24, as he will be making his debut for JR Motorsports in the Nationwide Series at Homestead in preparation for his full season in 2013, so he'll still have a competitive ride this weekend. By the way, he is a realistic lock for 24th place in the Sprint Cup drivers points (although he would have finished 23rd before his release), which will be the best points finish of his Cup career. Ironically, he will is one position higher than Kurt Busch, the driver who replaced him at FRR, despite having been in one less race this season than Kurt. I kind of hope that RCR lets Harvick keep the #29 when he leaves for SHR. There are four drivers today that are in the same car that they were when I began watching NASCAR back in 2002, and they are Jeff Gordon (#24), Jimmie Johnson (#48), Matt Kenseth (#17), and Kevin Harvick (#29). As we all know, Kenseth will no longer be in the #17 car next season and I highly doubt that Jeff or Jimmie will ever change teams or numbers. But I kind of hope that they let Harvick keep that number because I'm so used to seeing Harvick in that number, as I'm sure every one else is considering that's the number he's used his entire Cup career, and I'd like to see him keep it in 2014. I don't think Childress would mind giving that number up considering it was created as a renumbered #3 after Dale's death, but at the same time I think he feels hurt that Harvick announced his departure without telling him first. Maybe because of that, Childress keeps that number and puts another driver in it, but I don't know. 656. cjs3872 posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, Gordon's day was already ruined by the first contact with Bowyer, because his left rear tire was probably cut by the contact, so he was going to have to pit anyway, even if he had not cut his left front tire down about 10 seconds later. Even if that had not happened, he would have finished about 25th with the pit stop he would have had to make. 657. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see the comments about Brad. He is a hard racer. Period. And when he gets raced hard, the example at The Glen is a great one, he calls it good racing. And he calls this intentionally turning people cause they hurt your feelings exactly what it is: bullshit. The problem is all the other drivers suffer from Gordonitis, or at least most of them. Brad reminds me of Dale in how he relishes hard racing, but he needs to find his Rusty. Somebody he can rub fenders with then laugh about it afterwards as long as it doesn't get too rough (see Bristol '95, water bottle). Not sure he is out there. 658. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robin Ventura is a finalist for AL manager of the year. Even if he wins, he will always be The Guy Who Picked A Fight With 44 Year Old Nolan Ryan And Got BURNED! I've always felt that brawl and ass kicking delivered to Ventura was to Nolan what the 2000 Winston 500 was to Dale. Each was the badass legend reminding everybody one last time: I am Nolan Ryan / Dale Earnhardt and you are not! 659. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, who do you think would be the best fit as Brad's version of Rusty. 660. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I was just listing the Truck drivers who have shown to me to have great attitudes and talent behind the wheel, while also showing potential stardom in future years. Heck, Nelson Piquet, Jr. even said in an interview earlier this year shortly after his Nationwide win that while his goal was to reach Cup (which I think he will achieve some day), he wasn't going to rush it and hoped to race three seasons in Truck and three in Nationwide before going to Cup just to make sure he's ready. For a young driver with a lot of talent to say that he would be willing to wait a while and work his way up to Cup like that is pretty bold, and I think it shows that he wants to earn his way up to Cup based on his experience along the way, and not just because he's talented. As for the Nationwide drivers you listed, I think we can all agree that Stenhouse has all the talent to succeed in Cup, especially under the current points system that doesn't reward bad finishes any less than good finishes. What may hold him back are his irrational "bring home the steering wheel or the trophy" style of driving and his relatively poor attitude. Ernie Irvan proved that a very talented driver can overcome the "Swervin' Irvan/Stenhouse" moniker and become a title contender, so that shouldn't be a problem for Stenhouse. What troubles me his his attitude. I don't know if it's because he has a thick head now that he's a Nationwide champion (and likely to repeat this weekend) or if he's always been this way, but that may be what hurts him the most when facing greater competition in Cup. I hope that's not the case because he has the talent to do great things in Cup, but as we've seen from the likes of the Busch brothers, sometimes it's poor attitudes that hold great drivers back more than anything. Trevor Bayne's one weakness is sponsorship. I don't know how his 2013 season will go considering how Roush is planning on adding a 2nd full-time entry in Travis Pastrana, but I hope that means that both cars will run the full season despite their sponsorship situations. You and I disagreed about this before, with you saying that adding a 2nd car would give Roush an incentive to just stick with the driver with sponsorship so he only has to worry about having one fully sponsored car instead of two partially sponsored cars, but I hope you're wrong in that regard and Trevor can run the full schedule. He isn't likely to win six races like Ricky did this year, but he also isn't likely to shoot himself in the foot and lose the championship either. If Trevor had been in the #6 full-time this season, I think he would already have this championship locked up. Stenhouse cost himself about 50 points between the Dover, Kentucky, and Montreal races, and even if Trevor could have maintained 20 of those 50 points, he has this championship locked up going into Homestead. I've made it clear that I'm not as impressed by Austin Dillon as you are cjs, and it's because of what I've seen from him in the Nationwide Series, not the Cup Series that worries me. Plus, by the time he reaches Cup he'll be on a dysfunctional team that may or may not have a leader like Jeff Burton on it. Add-in the fact that he has also shown to have an attitude like Stenhouse has, and I just don't see him having a bright Cup future. Maybe I'll be wrong, but based on what I've seen from him so far, I just don't see "Cup star" written all over him. In fact, I think his brother Ty actually has more Cup potential than he does. I think Ty's attitude this year has been a lot more humbling than Austin's, and he has impressed me this year with his win at Atlanta over Cup driver Kyle Busch, his 3rd place finish at Indy in only his 2nd Nationwide start in a 4th RCR car, and his ability to come out of a bad race with a good finish. Add-in the fact that he has had a lot of luck in terms of dodging accidents this year (until the past few weeks), and I think he does better than Austin in Cup. I'm not too high on Cole Whitt as I don't think he's very good to be quite honest. Joey Coulter will actually be in the Nationwide race this weekend in what will be his final start for RCR, so it'll be interesting to see which of those two finishes higher than the other considering how both of us feel highly for one and not the other. Plus, Joey has the same number of wins, top fives, and poles as his teammate Ty Dillon, and is one of only four Truck drivers with an average finish of 9th or better. Considering how he has been in the #2 RCR Truck all season and isn't fully sponsored every week, I think that's pretty impressive. Plus, Kyle Busch signed him to his Truck team for next season, so I think that speaks very well for Joey as far as how he's seen in the NASCAR garage. 661. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he needs to find his Rusty." That's a sad point. I don't think there are any drivers who could be his Rusty. The only drivers who I can see fitting that role sadly are Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Kyle Busch, Kurt Busch, and Kevin Harvick. Like Rusty, all of these guys are very talented, but just seem to lack the "IT" factor that makes them go from being great to elite. I picked Carl, Denny, and Kyle because they have all had issues with Brad in the past, and are usually title contenders, but I don't see them being friends with Brad off the track the way Dale and Rusty were. I picked Kurt because I think he and Brad are friends (though, once again, not the same way that Dale and Rusty were), and if Kurt can keep his head on straight for a full season, he has all the ability to race hard and not bitch about it later (remember, it was Jimmie Johnson who complained about how Kurt was racing him, not Kurt). And I picked Harvick because that image of him "playfully" smacking Brad's face in the media center after Brad's water bottle incident at Atlanta still sticks out in my mind, and I think that those two could have a non-violent rivalry as well if, once again, Harvick can stay focused for a full season. Other than those five, I can't think of anyone currently in Cup. By the way, did you notice how I basically said that this those rivalries would only work if they can keep it together for a full season? That's what those five drivers lack compared to Rusty Wallace. Rusty was a hard racer who could keep it together for an entire season, whereas those five drivers are all question marks. I would love to see a yearly rivalry between Brad and either Harvick or Kurt (or any of those five, for that matter) because it would add another element to the race for the championship. But unfortunately, I just don't know if they're capable of doing that. 662. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes lets put Jeff Gordon on the Undertakers Symbol. 663. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just read Dave Moody's blog, and it sounds like NASCAR was more upset about Brad having a cell phone in his car because they couldn't monitor what he was saying or tweeting. They said that if it had a hard-line connection and information was going back-and-forth between the team (i.e from the hauler to the garage), then they wouldn't have a problem with it. But since it was done wirelessly and not to the team directly, that's what they had a problem with. Maybe they were afraid that interacting with NASCAR fans would give him a competitive advantage or something (if you ain't cheating against the #48, you ain't trying), but that's the gist of the statement they released. 664. 44andJoe posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I'll stick to my much better, more exciting, and better managed World of Outlaws. It's a shame WoO doesn't get televised hardly at all anymore. Even the King's Royal and Nationals only get tape delays. And with SPEED set to become Fox Cable Sports (Because Our Regional Fox Sports Net Channels Aren't Enough) there's no improvement in sight... Whatever happened to the plan to bring back TNN? Did that just die? Also, ironic symetry: Speedvision and The Outdoor Network were originally twin channels. Now the latter is NBC Sports Network (via Versus) and the former via Speed will become Fox's cable sports channel. Finally: F1 in Austin this weekend. Looking forwards to that! 665. Talon64 posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin Harvick picks up his 19th career Sprint Cup Series victory, tying him with Davey Allison, Buddy Baker, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Carl Edwards and Fonty Flock for 37th all time. It's his first win of 2012, ending a 44-race winless drought and giving him wins in 9 of his 12 seasons in Cup (including each of the last 3). His 8 wins since 2010 are tied with Tony Stewart and Brad Keselowski for the 4th most over that span. It's Harvick's first top 5 in 10 races, but he now has back-to-back top 10's after going the first 7 races of the Chase without one. Harvick picks up his 3rd career win at Phoenix International Raceway, 2nd only to Jimmie Johnson (4) all time. It's his first win at Phoenix since his 2006 sweep, his 2nd straight top 2 finish and 4th top 6 finish in the last 5 races there. Overall it's his 6th top 5 in 20 career starts (12.8 avg fin). RCR gets their first win in 39 races, dating back to their 100th career win at Talladega in October 2011. It's their 4th win at Phoenix (Dale Earnhardt in 1990, then Harvick's 3 wins). Denny Hamlin finishes in the top 2 for the 10th time in 35 races this season, tied with Jimmie Johnson for the most in 2012. In fact he's tied with Johnson and Brad Keselowski in wins (5) and tied with Johnson for runner-up finishes (5). It's Hamlin's 16th career runner-up finish. Hamlin has 3 top 2 finishes in 9 Chase races, but just 1 top 10 finish otherwise (12.1 avg fin). Harvick and Hamlin swept the top 2 in both Phoenix races in 2012, swapping positions each time. It's Hamlin's 6th top 3 finish in 15 career Phoenix starts (10.3 avg fin). Kyle Busch has now failed to win in each of the last 8 races in which he's led the most laps (it's the 10th time in his career that he's led over 200 laps in a race), his overall win-less streak is now at 26 races, he's guaranteed his lowest win total in a season since he joined Joe Gibbs Racing in 2008 and could end up tying his career low for wins in a season at 1. But it's his 3rd straight top 3 finish and 6th top 5 in 9 Chase races; he has a 9.6 avg fin in the Chase, scoring the 4th most points of any driver. Kyle's also clinched 13th in points, aka Best Of The Rest. It's just Kyle's 3rd top 5 in 16 career Phoenix starts, but it's his 10th top 10 (13.3 avg fin) and 4th in the last 6 races. Kasey Kahne's 12 top 5's this season are now tied for the 2nd most in his career (2006), and a top 5 at Homestead would tie his career high (13 in his rookie season in 2004). His 19 top 10's tie his career high from 2006, and another would give him 20+ in a season for the first time. It's Kahne's 5th top 5 in 9 Chase races this season, and he's in position to finish top 5 in points for the first time in his career (previous best was 8th in 2006). If he can finish 3rd in points, it'd would tie the 2nd best by a driver in their 1st year with Hendrick Motorsports (Mark Martin was 2nd in 1st year in #5 in 2009, Tim Richmond was 3rd in 1986). It's just Kahne's 3rd top 5 in 17 career Phoenix starts (19.1 avg fin), but it's his 3rd top 6 finish in the last 4 races. Ryan Newman finishes in the top 5 for just the 2nd time in the last 17 races, but he hasn't finished better than 5th in the 29 races since his Martinsville win. But of his 13 top 10's this season (15.4 avg fin), 10 have come in the last 18 races (13.8 avg fin). Newman finishes in the top 5 for the 5th time in the last 6 starts, including 5th in 3 of the last 4. He has 8 top 5's in 21 career Phoenix starts, but they're his only top 10's (18.0 avg fin). Brad Keselowski picks up his 17th top 10 in the last 19 races (6.26 avg fin) and his 6th top 6 finish in 9 Chase races (Chase-best 8 top 10's, 5.33 avg fin). A win at Homestead would give him a 4.9 avg fin in the Chase, tying Carl Edwards' record from 2011. It's Keselowski's 2nd top 10 in 7 career Phoenix starts (19.9 avg fin) but both have come this season. Greg Biffle reached 20+ top 10's in a season for just the 2nd time in his 11-season Cup career (21 in 2005). It's his 5th top 10 in the last 6 races, tied with Kyle Busch and Brad Keselowski for the most over that span, but he's only 7th in pts scored (10.7 avg fin). Biffle finishes in the top 10 at Phoenix for the 7th time in 18 career starts there (13.7 avg fin), but that includes 3 in the last 5 races. Kurt Busch finishes 8th for a 2nd straight race, after having just 2 top 10's in his first 32 starts of the season. It's the 2nd time that Furniture Row Racing's had back-to-back top 10 finishes, but both have come within the last 15 races. It's Kurt's 6th top 10 in the last 9 races at Phoenix and his 11th in 20 career starts there (13.2 avg fin). For a 3rd straight season, Paul Menard establishes a new career high in top 10's (6 in 2010, 8 in 2011, 9 in 2012). It's his 2nd top 10 in the last 4 races and 5th in the last 13 (4 in the first 22 races of 2012). It's the first time in 9 races that RCR's had 2 cars finish in the top 10. It's Menard's 2nd top 10 in 12 career Phoenix starts (22.5 avg fin) but both have come in the last 3 races. With his 10th top 10 of the year, Mark Martin now has 25 consecutive seasons with at least 10 top 10's. The only time Mark Martin's run at least 24 races in a season but failed to have 10+ top 10's was 1982 when he had 8 in 30 races. It's his 5th top 10 in his last 8 starts. It's Mark's 6th top 10 in the last 8 races at Phoenix, and his 21st top 10 in 32 career starts there (9.1 avg fin, his 3rd best at any track). Danica Patrick finishes a career-best 17th, her first top 20 finish in 10 starts (28.3 avg fin). 666. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A.J. Allmendinger will be returning to his karting roots this week for the SKUSA SuperNationals XVI event in Las Vegas. Even though they are no longer sponsoring him, Shell-Pennzoil will be sponsoring him and the recipient of the Shell-Pennzoil scholarship at the event. So for any Dinger fans wondering what he'll be doing during the Homestead weekend, now you know. This could be his final weekend without a ride as he's been rumored to joining BK Racing in 2013 (not sure if it'll be in a 3rd car or as Travis Kvapil's replacement). How ironic would that be if he joined the team that replaced the team that fired him in 2008? 667. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 44andJoe, it looks like you'll have to change your name back again. The #44 withdrew, so Reuti will be back in the #10 this weekend, lol. 668. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no Rusty out there. I don't think Rusty gets the credit he deserves as a driver. You have to realize, after cutting his teeth in Cup for 2 years in Cliff Stewart's underfunded equipment. He then spent the next 4 years with Blue Max. Although the team was loaded with talent (Dodson was the crew chief and future champion crew chiefs Jimmy Makar and Todd Parrot also worked for them) they were ALWAYS in financial straits. Hell, when he won the '89 Winston Cup, he was in the middle of suing the damn company to get out of his contract cause he knew they were going under. But he still agreed to drive a 5th lame duck year with them, winning a total of 18 races for them and delivering Dale Earnhardt his only true championship loss in 8 attempts. Then he had to get Penske South off the ground. After two transitional year (for those counting at home, '90-'92 was a write off for him) before his outstanding '93 and '94, 18 wins alone in those two years despite a manufacturer swap (irony). He is, without a doubt a first ballot Hall of Famer. Somewhere his fishing buddy is giving him a big mustachioed smile and happy to have him in the club. I wonder if I go to North Wilkesboro late at night, sneak into the track, and sit in the stands, if I could see Dale's ghostly car out there rubbing fenders with folks like Tim Richmond and Neil Bonnett again like he did with them and Rusty in the past. But yeah, no Rusty's out there. If he could have come along now in his prime, he'd be the one with 5 titles and counting. 669. Baker posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just thought of this earlier today when I rewatched the end of the race. After Phoenix this was the 2nd time this year when the media didn't bother to talk to Kyle Busch after a podium finish. When Kyle is running for the win or chase position and the media immediately wants to stick a mic in his face before he has time to cool his head its wrong for him to walk away, but when he finished up front and deserves and interview its okay for the media to "walk away" from him? I'm not one of Kyle's biggest fans but that is just bullcrap. 670. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice to see all the Nascar.Com style bitching and complaining that took place. Jeff Gordon's first career Crash-out at Phoenix. Bad Brad is either on his way to a Championship or he could be the Sixth victim of the extremely dangerous #48 team. I really want Brad to take it and like his potential counter-part(Big E)before him, he'll win it driving the #2. 671. Baker posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF not even in the lower levels? Ryan Blaney, Kyle Larson, Chase Elliott, Corey Lajoie or anyone? 672. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell Baker, Kyle was dominating the majority of the race and he still wasn't getting any air time, as ESPN decided that it would be best if only Brad and Jimmie's names were mentioned. I'm not surprised by this, and in a way I actually feel bad for Kyle. 673. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice of you to stop by after all the dust has settled JG24. Where were you when I needed you? Haha. 674. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nice of you to stop by after all the dust has settled JG24. Where were you when I needed you? Haha." I've been away. I can't believe how controversial all this is, but I'm not surprised to some of the reactions or overreactions to Gordon's conduct,which considering he took out Almirola and Logano in the incident,was pretty dirty and unfare to those drivers. But I agree that Gordon had the right to be upset and even retaliate against Bowyer,just not to the extent that he did. Is that Delusional? 675. murb posted: 11.13.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's version of how Rusty was to Earnhardt? Well, if Kyle Busch would get his head on straight, he would be the PERFECT candidate. But that remains to be seen. There could be some future guy out there though that could surprise people and become a championship contender/champion over the next ten years. For example, I seriously think that Nelson Piquet Jr may be a future Cup champion. He has impressed the hell out of me. James Buescher also might make the jump into the elite. It will be interesting to watch for sure. 676. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure about the lower level guys cause quite simply I haven't seen enough of them. I haven't studied them enough. Stenhouse could possibly be that guy after a few years of seasoning and finding the right mix of balls to the wall and patience like '94 Irvan. But we'll have to see. JJ could be that guy, he was complimentary towards Brad and his hard but clean racing at Texas, but I have a feeling there will be too much HMS influence in his ear for that, telling him nobody should be racing him hard. 677. David posted: 11.13.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, if Kyle Busch would get his head on straight, he would be the PERFECT candidate." He needs a Darrell Waltrip-crash-in-the-1983 Daytona 500-esque event if that is to ever happen. I'm only half-joking. No one responded to my standings in post #584?? Come on, now... 678. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know he isn't at BKR anymore, nor did he win for them, but I like what I've seen out of Parker Kligerman. I hadn't heard of him before last season because I wasn't paying much attention to the Nationwide Series then, so I don't know what his attitude was before he got to BKR, but I think being around Brad for about two years (mid'10 to mid-'12) really helped Parker mentally because he had a very mentally strong driver as his owner who he could learn from and surround himself with. Plus, Parker was one of the first to congratulate Brad on getting his first win as an owner, even after Brad and Parker parted ways. And then a few weeks later when Parker won his first race, Brad did the same thing and congratulated Parker. I see some elements of Brad in Parker Kligerman, and while I'm not sure if he'll reach the level of Brad talent-wise, I think he seriously benefited mentally by being around Brad for two years in the Nationwide and Truck Series, and that will help him tremendously when he finally reaches Cup. Plus it doesn't hurt that he already has some experience from testing Penske's Cup cars in the past. I agree JG24. I think that it was the way Jeff retaliated that upset a lot of people, rather than just the retaliation itself. I'm no Logano fan, but my first reaction when Jeff got into Bowyer was "Oh shit, poor Joey got taken out and he had nothing to do with it." Had Jeff waited another turn and dumped Bowyer going into turn 1 and not taken out any innocent drivers in the process, I don't think this is seen nearly as bad as the way it panned out. I had no problem with the retaliation because I believe Clint deserved it, but at the same time I really wish Jeff had been smarter about it because taking out two innocent drivers, not to mention yourself, in the process just made him look stupid. I still don't think it was a bigger fail than Danica's "retaliation" against Landon Cassill at Kansas, but it's a close second. 679. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct me if I missed a year, but I can only think of four championship seasons since '93 where the champion was pushed to his absolute limits in order to win the championship, and they all occurred in the past five seasons. I've given Jimmie Johnson a lot of shit about his '07 title, but even with the points reset, he had to drive his ass off during the Chase to hold off an equally great Jeff Gordon that season, because both of them were lights out for all 36 races and combined for 16 wins. Then the next year, Jimmie had to fight off "The Next Big Thing" Carl Edwards and succeeded. I think the finish in the Kansas race is a perfect illustration to how their championship battle went: Carl gave it everything he had, but he just couldn't beat the #48. Then in 2010, JJ had an inferior car for most of the season as he and his team had trouble adjusting to the new spoiler, and against a powerful "All we do is win" #11 team, managed to do win the championship by doing something Denny couldn't do: Be flawless over the final two races when it counts. And then last year was another great example as you had Carl Edwards who had been displaying his "Matt Kenseth 2003" consistency (complete with a lone win at Las Vegas) battling Tony Stewart who just came to life over those final 10 races. There was no way for Tony to beat Carl by way of consistency, so he beat him by resorting to Carl's biggest weakness: Winning. And by winning 5 races, he won the championship on a tiebreaker. You'll notice that those four examples I gave you have different combinations of drivers each year. Gone are the days when you could count on a "Dale vs. Rusty" showdown for the championship. Nowadays it's just the one elite driver against the flavor of the month (except 2007, when it was two elite drivers). I'd hate to think this will be the beginning of a "Brad vs. Jimmie" battle for the championship because that would be SO boring to watch. I would start rooting for hard-nosed drivers like Kurt Busch and Kevin Harvick if I knew that they could give Brad a run for his money without blowing up in the process, because at least that feud would be entertaining. And with RCR winning its first Cup race of the season so close to 2013 and Kurt Busch joining the lineup as well, it's not entirely irrational to think that could happen in 2013. 680. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if there are any lower-level drivers to watch out for, I would look at the drivers myself and cjs listed in posts 652 and 654, respectively. Obviously Stenhouse will be going to Cup next season, but I don't think he'll be a factor until at least 2014 because he's entering a less stable environment filled with crew swaps, sponsorship issues, and a lack of leadership. I've made it clear that I don't think Austin will be a great Cup driver based on what I've seen, and I think in a few years he'll be the #2 Dillon brother. Joey Coulter and Cole Whitt are definitely the sleepers of that group because I'm not sure if how far they are capable of going in NASCAR. And I don't want to put labels on Ryan Blaney or Kyle Larson yet because they haven't run a full season yet, but I think they have Cup potential as well. But I'm very high on Bayne, Buescher, Kligerman, and Piquet based on what I've seen, and I think they all have what it takes to be in that "very good", "great", or "elite" Cup driver range in the future. I already mentioned how Kligerman kind of reminds me of Brad K in terms of always having a positive attitude towards racing. And I think Buescher and Piquet have all the talent in the world to be Cup champions one day. But one rivalry I would love to see would be "Brad vs. Trevor" for the Cup championship. I mean, you couldn't draw up two completely different personalities of drivers. On one hand you have the rowdy, politically incorrect northerner who races every lap like it's the last lap and isn't afraid to rub fenders with other drivers; and on the other hand you have the calm, Christian southerner who races very patiently and would rather take a top five than risk wrecking the car going for the win. And yet, as different as those two drivers are, I could very easily see them being friends off the race track. Plus, I think no matter who you are, most people would be happy to see either one of those two drivers win the championship because they are both class acts in their own way. Damn, I hope Trevor gains a secure Cup ride in the future because I would LOVE to see those two battle for the championship. Dammit Roush, why didn't you let Trevor go to Penske this season??? 681. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowskywalker has 17 Top 9's in the last 19 races. Unf***ingbelievable! He is the best driver this year,but that pesky Darth 5-Time will have every available weapon from the Empire(Hendrick) at his disposal to take him down, and Keselowskywalker will only have his Yoda(Penske). 682. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also wanna address this Gordon 11th All Time thing. I know he is 3rd all time in wins and 4th all time in championships. But you have to consider his circumstances. Believe it or not, numbers are not everything to me. I know a lot of you might think so because I always talk about Dale's 7 championships and taunt Rainbow Nation by mentioning how 7 is a bigger number than 4. But it isn't his 7 championships that has him on top of my standings, it is how and with whom he won those 7 titles. He won them with 2 owners, the first of which didn't really care about NASCAR, it was just a brief hobby for him, and his second owner that he won his last 6 titles with has shown in the 12 years since Dale's passing, he is really overmatched on the Cup level. Yet he built a dynasty with him. There is also the fact that he closed out all but one of his 7 titles strong (the exception is the infamous '91 title when he inexplicably gained 160 points on his lead in the end) and was in good title contention 8 times in his career, and won 7 of them. The truth is you can twist numers any which way. I was at Barnes & Noble yesterday and stumbled across a book that was only about making the point Tom Brady is the best QB in football history. They even break down chapters comparing him to the legends, most appallingly they havea chapter saying he is better than Joe Montana by twisting numbers around. I take nothing away from Tom Terrific's on field brilliance, but that doesn't change the fact that he would never sniff the starting QB position if he were on the same team as Joe Cool. Although the Niners were the same team that wouldn't put Joe in the '92 NFC title game in the end with SF still with a chance and Steve Young struggling in the playoffs badly for the second straight year, then trading Joe and keeping Steve. If Joe gets the starting job permanently back from the 4th quarter on from that game forward, SF wins at least two more Super Bowls from '92-'94 instead of one with Steve. Yikes, epic digression. Anyways, you have to consider the circumstances of those stats. The fact is that for 16 of the last 18 seasons, HMS has had far and away the best cars out there ('00 and '03 are the exceptions). Jimmie Johnson has proved this by coming in, winning more titles that Jeff and relegating him to wingman status, and getting him kicked out of HIS OWN BUILDING. Plus his perfect career arc (stepped in top funded equipment from day one, same team and same sponsor ever since) and inability to close seasons out come into play. Plus his propensity to get beat by his own teammates in the same equipment ('96, '07) can't be ruled out. Plus HMS' overall record of constant cheating penalties in the post 1991 "creative engineering is no longer tolerated with a wink anymore, quit doing it and we mean it" era, it is hard to tkae those numbers at face value. Yes, his talent and tenacity are undeniable. But I can't rank him ahead of (not necessarily in order except for the first 3) Earnhardt, Richard Petty, Pearson, Lee Petty, Bobby, Cale, Junior Johnson, Jimmie Johnson, Darrell, and Herb Thomas. 683. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes, his talent and tenacity are undeniable. But I can't rank him ahead of (not necessarily in order except for the first 3) Earnhardt, Richard Petty, Pearson, Lee Petty, Bobby, Cale, Junior Johnson, Jimmie Johnson, Darrell, and Herb Thomas." I can. 1. Richard Petty 2. Jeff Gordon 3. David Pearson 4. Dale Earnhardt 5. Bobby Allison The numbers thing is just a base to set an argument, the argument itself is displayed in his numerous incredible driving displays such as the 1997 Southern 500 The 1999 and 2005 Daytona 500's and his underrated run of 6 straight road-race wins and the fact that he,unlike a lot of the other champions, is an all-around master,meaning he's great in all aspects. I don't buy the 1996 "choke" argument, because it was bad luck that cost him an easy championship,and it was misfortune that cost him a better 1999, and the The Chase took care of his 2007 353 point championship,a season in which he had a 400 point lead with 2 races to go, but because of the Chase, 30 Top 10's and a 36 race average finish of 7.3 was in vain. 684. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good points about the lower level guys. Thanks. I have watched them, but I haven't really payed attention to their nuances on the track except for Swervin Stenhouse cause you can't ignore him. "But one rivalry I would love to see would be "Brad vs. Trevor" for the Cup championship." In a number of ways it would be like the epic 1990 Winston Cup fight between Dale and Mark. The hard nosed, aggressive, drive every lap like it is the last (although truthfully by 1990 Dale had found the PERFECT balance of knowing when to go balls to the wall and when to chill out a bit, but due to his talent, it was hard to tell cause he was so good, him "chilling" was faster than most) against the "whatever I do I must finish the race and not dent a fender" Mark. " On one hand you have the rowdy, politically incorrect northerner who races every lap like it's the last lap and isn't afraid to rub fenders with other drivers; and on the other hand you have the calm, Christian southerner who races very patiently and would rather take a top five than risk wrecking the car going for the win." Funny, I like Trevor and I am a Christian Southerner, but I would be rooting for Brad. 685. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as him not closing seasons out, I don't know much about how his '97 season ended, but I do know from watching "Hendrick 200" (I highly recommend watching it, even if you aren't an HMS fan) that at Atlanta, they had such a big lead going into the race (as long as he didn't finish last, Gordon wins the title) that they actually had Ray Evernham and Rick Hendrick go over the wall during a pit stop. With Ray as the jackman (and a shitty one, at that) and Rick cleaning the windshield, they had a 36-second pit stop, which probably cost them two laps in the process. If that's the attitude that they had to end the season, then I'm guessing that knowing that they held a 302-point lead with four races to go, they were probably just having fun during those final four races. Yes it almost came back to bite them, saved by a 5th place finish at Phoenix, but in the end they won the championship and I think that's all that matters. Plus, when it comes to needing a driver who can go out and get me a great finish no matter the track type, the race's magnitude, or the importance of the race (i.e Richmond when he needed to make the Chase), I'll take Gordon any day of the week, no matter if it's "late '90s" Gordon or present-day Gordon. I still rank him ahead of Jimmie because HMS was not as dominant of a team in during Jeff's championship years ('95-'01) as it was during Jimmie's ('06-present). Jeff laid the foundation for a multi-championship winning team, while Jimmie was the ultimate benefactor of "right place, right time" and to his credit took the keys to a Ferrari and drove it for all its worth (which is more than I can say about Kyle Busch, both during his HMS years and JGR years). But if Jimmie were to walk into HMS in '92 as its newest driver, I don't think HMS becomes what it is today. Hell, during his Busch Series tenure Jimmie had fewer wins and top ten finishes in two full seasons than Cup-washout Todd Bodine had in two part-time seasons while driving for the same team. In a way, Jeff and Jimmie are a lot like Steve Austin and The Rock in the WWE from '98 to '03. The question as to which one is greater is settled by these two questions: What era did The Rock achieve his greatest success in? The Attitude Era. Which wrestler created that era? Steve Austin. That's exactly how I see these two and as great as Jimmie is, I don't think he enters HMS in '92 and lays the foundation for what it is today. I don't really care where you have Jeff Gordon ranked historically otherwise. I have him in the 3rd to 5th place range along with Allison and Pearson, but after The King and Dale who I consider to be the two greatest drivers ever. 686. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Funny, I like Trevor and I am a Christian Southerner, but I would be rooting for Brad." Haha talk about irony. I'm a politically incorrect northerner who likes Brad, but I would be rooting for Trevor. 687. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, that was actually 1995 where Ray was the jackman on one of Jeff's stops because he had the title locked up. I just watched the 1997 finale yesterday and Jeff finished 17th in that race. That weekend Jeff crashed his primary car on pit road and qualified 37th and struggled all day long. 688. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " the argument itself is displayed in his numerous incredible driving displays such as the 1997 Southern 500 The 1999 Daytona 500" Those were great driving displays, but lets not forget that had anyone but Jeff Burton (or Mark Martin) been hounding him in the '97 Southern 500, they'd still be pulling rainbow pieces of sheetmetal out of Darlington's wall to this day when he put on that huge block. And Rusty Wallace inexplicably let him off the hook in the '99 Daytona 500. "unlike a lot of the other champions, is an all-around master,meaning he's great in all aspects." So were the first 10 on my list (although Lee, Junior and Herb never got a great chance to prove themselves on road courses). Richard, Bobby, and Darrell each had 5 Riverside wins (the only road course on the schedule during their primes), while Cale and David had 3 apiece. And I know Dale just has the one road course win, but his Top 5 and avg finish numbers at Riverside and Sears Point are exceptional. And JJ is deceptively good there despite only one win. Everyone ahead of Jeff won on all types of tracks they raced on in their primes. Maybe not as much, but they didn't have the advantages he had. 689. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, sorry I made a mistake on that sentence. I meant to say "but I do know from watching "Hendrick 200" that at Atlanta *'95", but I forgot to say "'95" and so it looked like I was referring to the '97 season, which I mentioned in the previous sentence. Thank you for spotting my error. 690. 44andJoe posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd have to say Kyle Larson and Ryan Blaney are right now the Blue Chip Prospects in the pipeline. Blaney of course has a win in Trucks, while Larson SHOULD have won that Phoenix truck race; ironic it was his teammate whose blown tire resulted in his losing. Blaney's stats in Nationwide are pretty good too; you really can't tell the difference between when Brad is in the 22 or Ryan is, and that's in a good way. They're the A-Team, with the B-team being Piquet, the Dillons, Stenhouse, Bayne, Coulter, Johanna Long, and Ryan Truex. Honourable mention would go to Michael Annett, who has really raised his stock this year, and Travis Pastrana, who has performed beyond expectations (which were, admittedly, low as a result of expecting "Pastranamania" to follow the same path as "Danicamania" which he has, in fact, avoided). An incomplete grade goes to Ross Chastain, who shows promise (see Bristol) but has been hobbled by a lack of funding to the point of having to start S&Ping, John Wes Townley, who needs to decide if he's the New, Improved JWT we saw at Pocono and Kentucky or the Same Old JWW he's regressed to at times, and Miguel Paludo, who has significantly underperformed after switching to Turner this year. 691. murb posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor will definitely find success in the future, but only if he can either get out of Roush's stranglehold, or if Roush finally realizes "Wow, this kid could be my next Mark Martin". But the Brad - Trevor battle would be fantastic. And like DSFF said, it would be much like the 1990 battle of Earnhardt and Mark. I also think Kyle Larson is one of the two or three top guys to watch in the coming years, along with Darrell Wallace Jr and perhaps Ryan Blaney. But the one thing that is iffy about Larson is the fact that he is with Ganassi. Ganassi has obviously been junk the past two years, but I'm not gonna completely give up on them as a team yet just because of their upcoming switch to Hendrick motors. But still, Ganassi has never really been a great Nascar owner, so if I was Kyle, I think I would be looking at other teams to hook up with. Surely he would draw some interest from one of the big four (Hendrick, JGR, Roush, Penske). He would be too good to pass up. 692. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 44andJoe, I don't know if I'd rank Blaney and Larson that high just yet because, while they have performed very well, their best showings have been on the short tracks with speedway characteristics (Richmond, Iowa, and Phoenix), which are the types of tracks they have been racing on for years in series like PASS and USAC, respectively. Before I put them on my A-team blue chip prospect list, I want to see how they do on oval short tracks, intermediates, superspeedways, and the proposed road course for the Truck Series next season. Ryan already showed us what he can do on an intermediate with his 2nd place finish at Texas, but I still want to see more out of them before I put them on my A-team. Until then, I'm putting them on the "incomplete" list because I haven't seen enough out of them. 693. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what I just realized? We should have seen the EGR engine supplier change coming a long time ago. Think about it. Kyle Larson is a Ganassi developmental driver who has made three Truck starts driving for Turner Motorsports, who gets their engines from Hendrick. If they were really sticking with the ECR engines, I think they would have put him in the 3rd Eddie Sharp Racing Truck instead. The mystery that no one gave a shit about has been solved. 694. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was never all that impressed with Paludo, but he did much better with Red Horse than he has with Turner and Red Horse wasn't nearly as good last year as it's been this year. While Piquet and Buescher have won multiple races (and Buescher is leading the points), Paludo has been invisible. I think Buescher is definitely a blue chip prospect. The only concern with Larson is that he is associated with EGR, a team that seems to be a sinking ship. I have one question about the young guys: Is Brett Moffitt associated with any Cup team? 695. murb posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Never thought of that Paul. But like I said, I think Kyle is a great up and comer, but I would feel even better about him if he was coming up through a much better team. Another thing about Ganassi. Who are they gonna mentor him with? Montoya? McMurray would be okay, but I honestly don't really expect him to back with Ganassi if he has another mediocre year in 2013. So Montoya is really your only option as a mentor unless you go the Danica route and hire him a driving coach. 696. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Rusty Wallace inexplicably let him off the hook in the '99 Daytona 500." Gordon's move was awesome, because it ultimately gave him the win. All the blocking he put on Skinner and Earnhardt to break them up from teaming up on him was fantastic. You should read Ed Hinton's book called "Daytona: From the birth of speed to the Death of The Man in Black",in his opinion that was the best Daytona 500 performance ever,but I would at least say that Gordon's 2005 was his best but than again, his 1997 is pretty good too. 697. murb posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, Moffitt has sort of had this on again off again relationship with MWR the past couple years. He drove for them in the East Series, and he's run some pretty impressive races in the RAB/MWR 99 car in NNS too. I like him. I wish MWR would take their development program a little more seriously, because they've had some great drivers like Moffitt, Ryan Truex, and Trevor Bayne, but something always ends up happening and these young guys then have to spend time finding new teams when they could be spending time on the track. 698. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, Brett Moffitt is an MWR developmental driver who has made one Nationwide start for RAB Racing, their Nationwide affiliate team. Or murb, instead of hiring a driving coach, you just hire the guy who SHR wants to be Danica's driving coach and put Scott Riggs in your other Cup car. Scott has Cup experience and knows how to drive a race car, but also doesn't have a big ego and seems willing to help younger drivers out at this stage of his career. I think if they were to hire a guy like Scott to drive their Cup car and work with Kyle during tandem weekends, it would benefit Kyle tremendously at this stage of his career. 699. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Ryan Truex, is anyone else under the impression that he hasn't gotten over the Dover win back in the spring, and it's had an effect on his driving ever since? Either that or he's just not all that good because aside from tracks 1 mile or shorter, he hasn't really done anything this year. Heck, they put him in the #18 car twice this season, the one that Joey Logano best exemplified his "Dominate on Saturdays, invisible on Sundays" motto, and could only gain two 10th place finishes in that car. I don't know whether it's due to him not getting over that loss (a term I've decided to call "Truex syndrome", since his brother has it too), or if he's just not all that good, but he's been rather disappointing outside of that race and the Truck race at Martinsville. 700. murb posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I've never had Ryan Truex up on my "potential future Cup champions" list. I've always felt like if he got to Cup he could be a pretty decent to a good driver, much like his brother. The Dover loss could be a part of something, but it's hard to say. I didn't watch the Truck race at Martinsville, but from what I've read on here it sounds like he pulled some pretty dumb moves. 701. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And also, this "Jeff built HMS" simply isn't true. HMS was exceptional from '84-'89 with the old Monte Carlo. Bodine's '84 with a start up team, Tim's '86, and Darrell's '89 would have all be championship caliber in any other era (maybe not Geoff's, but 3 wins in a start up effort as the most stacked era in NASCAR history was about to begin is damn impressive). But they struggled mightily with the Lumina. So '90-'94 weren't very good, but they had a car they couldn't get a handle on. The new Monte Carlo came out in '95 and HMS has been taking candy from babies ever since. The pieces were all there, they just needed a better car. BTW, Dale won 4 championships with that hunk of metal, the 90's answer to the Dodge Magnum of the 70's. RCR's record with the new Monte Carlo is self explanitory. 13 wins from '95-'00, 5 of which came in '95. By '96 they were fading fast, then Dale got hurt and couldn't overcome the shortcomings of his cars like he used to until 2000 after he finally had surgery. Of the 8 wins from '96 through the end, 4 were plate wins, 2 were at his stomping ground in Atlanta, and the other two came at Rockingham '96 and Bristol '99 where Dale may or may not have used his front bumper, video evidence is inconclusive :) Yet do you realize heading into the Summer Dega race in '96, Dale was only TWELVE points out of the lead? Best ever, period. As for Gordon's late season collapses, let's look at the gory details: 1995: 6 races left, Jeff leads by 309 points. 4 races left, Jeff leads by 302. final margain of victory? 34 points. Ouch. 1996: 4 races left, Jeff leads Terry by 111 points. 3 races later he is 47 points in the whole. He only makes up 10 in the final race. Yeah there was the mechanical issue at Charlotte, but he still had a one point lead after that. A mediocre run at Rockingham (top 5 for Terry), getting beat by 2 positions by Terry and his broken wrist at Phoenix, and not putting on much pressure at Atlanta spelled doom. 1997: 5 races left, Jeff leads Mark by 135 and DJ by 222. Final margain? 14 over DJ (!!!) and 29 over Mark. Umm, what happened? I know he had a flat tire in Phoenix, but so did DJ, who pitted, unlapped himself, and drove all the way around and retook the lead WITH NO CAUTION! 2001: His answer to Dale's 1991 season. Wins Kansas with 8 races left and a 222 point led over Rudd, 445 over Tony, and 504 over Sterling. His last 8 finishes were 16, 9, 7, 6, 25, 28, 6, 15 (he lost his head and hit Robby under caution costing him at shot at the win with a dominant car). Final points margain was 344 over Tony, 371 over Sterling, and 406 over Rudd.Ccompare this to the races at the end of '91 from Dover onwards. Eerily similar. Poor Rudd just can't handle being second in points. 2004: In the first cha$e, Kurt Busch has about 3 or 4 unprovoked spins and an early blown engine at Atlanta, and JJ has about 3 unprovoked WRECKS, yet Jeff can't top either of them, who only had the torn gear at Atlanta. 2007: Has a 68 point lead with 5 races left. JJ cuts on the afterburners when it truly counts and wins 4 in a row while Jeff finishes 3rd (was 2nd in the Srping race), 7th, 7th (4th with most laps led in Spring race), and 10th (won Spring race tying Dale and a nice tribute afterwards). Make that an 86 point deficit. The word "uninspiring" comes to mind. 2011: A reborn Jeff has 3 vintage wins, and a vintage late season swoon. 3 wins has him 3rd in points for the cha$e reset. In the final 10 he shits all over himself. 3 Top 5s, 1 other Top 10, 5 finishes of 21st or worse including a 32nd and 34th. 702. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Brad K. wins the championship,he'll be the first Dodge champion since The King in 1975 and he can also win the Title with the most victories to boot. I don't think anybody can really appreciate what it will mean if he wins the title,because in my mind this is a parallel to the 1980 season. 703. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In 1997 at Phoenix DJ never actually was a lap down. He was on the tail end of the lead lap after being on pit road when Ward Burton crashed. He then made up all of the ground with far and away the best car at that point in the race. While DJ did that, Jeff had taken a good but not great car up into 4th place before his tire problem, which came very late in the race so he didn't have a lot of time to make up ground. I can defend that, I (or anybody else) cannot defend his Atlanta performance. Luckily Bobby Labonte was extremely dominant in that race (He had a 20 second lead at one point) that Jeff's mediocrity in that race didn't come back to bite him as Jarrett finished 2nd and Mark 3rd. 704. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and not putting on much pressure at Atlanta spelled doom." He fell two laps down because of pit problems, made up both laps, and led 59 laps with a 3rd place finish. I don't see the problem with that. "Make that an 86 point deficit. The word "uninspiring" comes to mind." An average finish of 5.1 with back-back wins at Talladega and Charlotte in The Chase is uninspiring? 705. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's some interesting stats, and they're just from this page. Here's how many times the following drivers have had either their first or last names mentioned on this page so far: 857 - Jeff Gordon ("washed-up wingman") 236 - Brad Keselowski (points leader) 152 - Kevin Harvick (race winner) 144 - Jimmie Johnson (title contender) I'm somewhat amused at the fact that the "washed-up wingman" has been mentioned 325 more times than the points leader, race winner, and title contender combined. You'd think that we would have better things to talk about, but alas, here we are talking about the past-his-prime "washed-up wingman", once again proving just how irrelevant he is. Oh wait... 706. JG24FanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's 1997 by wins: Southern 500 Daytona 500 Coke 600 Watkins Glen Spring Bristol Spring Martinsville California Loudon race2 June Pocono Early Rockingham He's the only driver with a Triple Crown+Championship and yet his title means nothing because he didn't win it by enough points? 707. Baker posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It doesn't matter where Kyle Larson is driving right now. When he gets to that point in his career he makes the jump to its going to be for Stewart-Haas. Tony has a lot or respect of Larson and vice-vera. Tony will be fast approaching 50, Danica will be long forgotten and Ryan Newman will have since be canned for averageness. Tony is no dummy when it comes to racing and has an eye for talent. It is undeniable that Kyle Larson is by far the most talented USAC driver since Tony himself. Being so involved in USAC and World of Outlaws I don't think Tony lets a talent like Kyle Larson get away. 708. David posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here's some interesting stats, and they're just from this page. Here's how many times the following drivers have had either their first or last names mentioned on this page so far: 857 - Jeff Gordon ("washed-up wingman") 236 - Brad Keselowski (points leader) 152 - Kevin Harvick (race winner) 144 - Jimmie Johnson (title contender) I'm somewhat amused at the fact that the "washed-up wingman" has been mentioned 325 more times than the points leader, race winner, and title contender combined. You'd think that we would have better things to talk about, but alas, here we are talking about the past-his-prime "washed-up wingman", once again proving just how irrelevant he is. Oh wait..." Please don't tell me you went back and counted all those. "1996: 4 races left, Jeff leads Terry by 111 points. 3 races later he is 47 points in the whole. He only makes up 10 in the final race. Yeah there was the mechanical issue at Charlotte, but he still had a one point lead after that. Yes he did, folks! The massive, insurmountable lead of ONE POINT!!! If anything, it proved the major flaw of the Latford system, that it punished bad finishes too much, and rewarded great runs too little. And that has only been taken up about five notches with the BFSEAMCUIPS (Brian France's "So Easy, A Monkey Could Understand It" Points System). 709. 18fan posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Give me the Latford system any day over Brian France's piece of crap current system. 710. Paul posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tony is no dummy when it comes to racing and has an eye for talent" He's also the same guy who declined to hire Brad Keselowski and signed Danica instead. How's that worked out for him? "Please don't tell me you went back and counted all those." Two words: Ctrl + F. I also subtracted Bon Gordon's name from the total so the scores weren't skewed. 711. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.13.2012 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never said the title doesn't count. It is just part of the large career picture which is what I look at. From mid October through the end, he just fades noticeably (except for his epic '98). I have never figured out how somebody who handles pressure so well in big name races is so comparitively weak in big championship implication races. And my "uninspiring" comment is about Jeff's perfromance when Jimmie was hitting the Go button at season'e end. Take this season for example. Jimmie hit the go button, dominating Martinsville and Texas back to back, but Brad reached back, stayed close, kept pressure on the 48, and finally forced them into a mistake. Jeff didn't do that in '07. When he needed it the most, Jeff couldn't hang with Jimmie. 712. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Give me the Latford system any day over Brian France's piece of crap current system." I completely agree. At least that points system rewarded drivers for top five and top ten finishes more than top 30 finishes with the different points-per-position scale. It's a shame that there had to be a Chase and an elementary points system that has brought upon questioning of the 2004-present champions, and therefore de-legitimized the championship. At least before the champion was crowned based on their full season consistency, and not on their late season winning percentage. I wouldn't be surprised if Gordon's "open up a big lead, then go out to lunch near the end" "strategy" is what made NASCAR decide that their relatively flawless points system needed to be changed. If that's the case, then that's just sad because at least he scored the most overall points in all four of his championships, not to mention two others when he wasn't crowned champion. 713. murb posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "BFSEAMCUIPS (Brian France's "So Easy, A Monkey Could Understand It" Points System)." David, this is the best acronym for anything ever. It ranks right up with ARCA (Always Ready to Crash Automobiles) and RCR (Really Conservative Racing). 714. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A brief side by side by side of Jeff Gordon, Dale Earnhardt and Jimmie Johnson. Most wins in a season: Jeff Gordon 6 Dale Earnhardt 2 Jimmie Johnson 3 Most Dominated races in a season: Jeff Gordon 9 Dale Earnhardt 5 Jimmie Johnson 5 Most Poles in a season: Jeff Gordon 6 Dale Earnhardt 1 Jimmie Johnson 1 Most Laps Led in a season: Jeff Gordon 6 Dale Earnhardt 5 Jimmie Johnson 5 Championships: Jeff Gordon 4 Dale Earnhardt 7 Jimmie Johnson 5 Road-Race wins: Jeff Gordon 9 Dale Earnhardt 1 Jimmie Johnson 1 Plate wins: Jeff Gordon 12 Dale Earnhardt 11 Jimmie Johnson 3 Wins on Superspeedway's 2.5 miles or more: Jeff Gordon 22 Dale Earnhardt 16 Jimmie Johnson 9 Short-track wins: Jeff Gordon 15 Dale Earnhardt 27 Jimmie Johnson 11 715. Anonymous posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, Kevin isn't mention as much as Jeff Gordon on this page, because his win is overlooked by a couple things. Kevin is out of the championship picture before Phoenix despite making the chase. This is a big deal because of Jimmie's crash, Brad took the points lead. Taking a points lead 1 race to go is a bigger deal than a win. The 2nd thing is the Clint Boyer and Jeff Gordon wreck actually was a big deal. Altercations on the track do cause race winners to be overlooked such as what happened between Kevin Harvick and Kyle Busch at Darlington last year. Regan Smith's win got overlooked as a result. 716. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, while HMS was a very good team before Jeff got there, they hadn't won a championship yet. I never said Jeff made that team, that honor would go to Geoff Bodine and Tim Richmond. I said that he laid the foundation for a multi-championship winning team because HMS had neither won, nor seriously contended for a championship before. Now the Monte Carlo may have given them an advantage in '95, but it wasn't like they had some jabroni behind the wheel. Last I checked, Gordon won 7 races that season with 6 coming on "driver tracks", including The Rock, the pre-'97 Atlanta, Bristol, the first of four straight Southern 500 wins, and the 500-mile Dover race. He also recorded 9 poles that season, with 6 coming on "driver tracks", including North Wilkesboro, The Rock, and Darlington. Jeff did his job behind the wheel that season, and did it so well that he could just coast through the final four races. As far as the Gordon/Johnson debate, other than championships and aerodynamic intermediate tracks, where does Johnson have Gordon beat? I won't list every comparison JG24 made, but among those that jump out at me are the 2.5-mile tracks wins (Jeff 22, Jimmie 9), road course wins (Jeff 9, Jimmie 1; what a road racer), and times leading the series in wins (Jeff 6, Jimmie 3). I'll add one more stat; Number of 10+ Win Seasons: Jeff 3, Jimmie 1. If Jimmie is so much better than Jeff and against weaker top competition with more races on the schedule (36 for Jimmie, 31-33 for Jeff), why is it that Jeff in the same equipment (I would argue not as good equipment) has more double-digit seasons that Jimmie? There were more Hall of Famers and champions racing against Jeff (Dale, Rusty, DJ, Elliott, Labontes, Mark) than against Jimmie (Jeff, Tony, Matt), so why couldn't Jimmie win as many races? Could it be because there are less "driver tracks" on the schedule (no Rockingham or Wilkesboro, one Atlanta and Darlington, mostly lousy Bristol), or could it be that the newer cars are too aerodynamically sensitive and JJ makes too many mistakes to cap off double-digit win seasons? Either way, I'd say Jeff has Jimmie beat in that category. Hell, Jimmie had his only 10+ win season in a year when HMS cars won half the races; Jeff had a 10+ win season when he didn't even win the championship (and didn't deserve it either because of too many bad finishes, not because he "choked"). Also DSFF, you mentioned that you ranked Bobby, Cale, and Darrell higher than Jeff because they were "jacks of all trades", but why is Jimmie ranked higher than him as well? He has more non-top ten finishes at Sonoma (5) than Jeff (4) in half as many starts, and while he often runs well there, at the end of the day Jeff has 9 times more road course wins than Jimmie. Some more comparisons: Who is less mistake-prone? Jeff. Who has won more full season championships? Jeff. Who has scored the most overall points more times? Jeff. Who has led the series in wins the most times? Jeff. Who has led the series in poles the most times? Jeff, which ended the Earnhardt theory of "the worse your qualifying setup, the better your race setup". And despite the overabundance of his preferable aerodynamic tracks, who has led the series in most laps led and dominating races the most times? Jeff. If not for the Chase, Jimmie has two championships and Jeff has six. Jeff is the better full season driver because he takes no unnecessary risks and is very methodical at getting the best finish he can get, regardless of whether it's 1st place or 5th place. Jimmie on the other hand is far too mistake-prone to win a championship in a full season, which is why he couldn't catch Matt Kenseth in '03, despite Matt's lack of wins and overall mediocre Roush team. And if I had to choose between having Jeff Gordon as my driver when the pressure is on to having Jimmie Johnson when the pressure is on, I'll take Jeff any day of the week no matter the track, the situation, or his age. Jeff needed to race his way into the Chase and did so with three straight top 3 finishes; Jimmie just had to avoid making mistakes for the final two, and pulled a Denny Hamlin 2010 by taking himself out at Phoenix when it was completely unnecessary and cost himself the championship. If Jeff were in Jimmie's position, he would have no problem with taking it easy on those tires and just waiting for pit stops to begin. But because Jimmie has the "wreck gene", he runs the car too hard and melted a bead while running around 10th place at the halfway mark of the race. A smarter, better driver wouldn't have done that, and the driver I'm referring to is the driver of the #24. 717. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(and didn't deserve it either because of too many bad finishes, not because he "choked")" Gordon absolutely deserved to be champion in 1996. Gordon lost 61 points to Labonte at the Daytona 500 when Jeff was turned into the wall and finished 42nd,then he lost another 113 to Terry at Indy because of a blown tire, that comes to 174 lost points in two races due to circumstances that were out of his hands. Another pair of bad luck races as he lost 28 points to Terry with a blown engine at Rockingham and another 84 points to an ignition failure at Loudon,which comes out to another 112, to come to a Grand total of 286 points lost due to things out of his control. All that crap and he still only lost by 34 points. 718. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^ I meant 37 points 719. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Point well made, JG24. But speaking from a consistency factor, I think Terry deserved it because they had equal top fives and top tens, but he had fewer bad finishes. It's unfortunate that Jeff lost the title the way he did with six finishes of 31st or worse (including two 40th or worse finishes to start the season). The fact that he was even in the championship hunt in a full season without a points reset speaks volumes for him and his team. And hey, there's no shame in finishing 2nd in the points to your teammate in the prime of your career during a season filled with bad finishes. If anything, I think that's pretty impressive considering all the bad luck he endured. It's too bad he couldn't have had a life preserver system like the Chase back in '96, in which case Jeff actually wins the title. 720. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And hey, there's no shame in finishing 2nd in the points to your teammate in the prime of your career during a season filled with bad finishes." Do you think it's possible that Hendrick had Gordon sand bag in the last four races so that he could win a championship with the team he started Hendrick Motorsports with back in 1984 with the #5 team,since they actually had a shot? 721. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think so JG24 because he was running very well at the end of the season, but he had two bad finishes that ended his championship hopes. I know that looking back, the engine failure at Charlotte was pretty much the end of his championship run because a bad finish for Jeff in '96 was finishing in the 30s, while a bad finish for Terry was finishing in the 20s. The difference between finishing 20th and finishing 30th under the Latford system was 30 points, and Jeff lost the title by 37 points. But if you finish 30th or worse too often while your rival's worst finishes are 10 positions higher, it all starts to add up and before you know it, you have 10 wins and lose the championship because of one too many bad finishes. But getting back to possible sandbagging, I don't believe so because at Rockingham, Jeff lost a lap early because his car was handling so bad, and once he finally got the car properly adjusted, he was running with the leaders and looked to have a top five car. Unfortunately, this was pre-"lucky dog" days when drivers actually had to earn their laps back, and Jeff was never able to pass the Fords of Rudd and Jarrett and settled for 12th place, the highest finishing car one lap down. Meanwhile, Terry finished in 3rd place. I did the math and if Jeff was able to get back on the lead lap and finish in 3rd place, he would have gained 38 points on Terry, and with Terry losing an extra five for being passed, Jeff would have actually gained 43 points that he lost and would have won the title by 6 points. I don't think it was sandbagging that cost Gordon the title, nor do I think that the Charlotte race was ultimately his end in the championship battle. Under today's rules, Jeff would have regained his lap via the "lucky dog" and would have been able to race his way up to the top five. Provided that he finish in 3rd place where his teammate finished, Jeff wins the championship. Jeff didn't lose the championship because he choked, he lost it because the rules were tougher back then and there was no welfare system that made things as equal as possible and easier for drivers to regain laps lost on the track. 722. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 3:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's some more news in the present day NASCAR world. Like I previously mentioned, XXXtreme Motorsport (no "s" apparently) decided not to make the trip to Homestead and has withdrawn their entry, with previously scheduled driver David Reutimann now listed in the #10 for TBR in what could be his final start for that team. They've decided to instead focus their efforts on making the Daytona 500 over the next four months. Bobby Labonte, who finished 15th this weekend and I didn't even know about it until now, will return to JTG Daugherty "Racing" for a 3rd season in 2013. There were rumors that he would be replaced by Reuti, but those were quickly shot down and it doesn't appear that a second car is in the works. I'm pulling for Brad and Buescher to win their respective championships, and while I was pulling for Sadler to win the Nationwide title as a "lame duck" driver, I've come to terms with the fact that it probably won't happen at this point. Stenhouse will more than likely win back-to-back Nationwide titles since Martin Truex, Jr. in '04 and '05. Truex was also, until Stenhouse, the last Nationwide driver to win the Nationwide championship. So both of our most recent Nationwide regular champions, if nothing happens at Homestead, will have won back-to-back titles prior to moving up to Cup. 723. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 3:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's worth noting that Gordon has brought more attention to Nascar crashing Clint Bowyer than Jimmie Johnson did with 5 straight title's. 724. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 3:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone remember Kenny Schrader crashing Morgan Shepherd out at the Spring Darlington race in 1990? After spending time in the garage, after being crashed by Shepherd, and Bud Moore said "we should work that boy's head over with a hammer". 725. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) for whoever it was that was critizing ryan truex for not running as well in the #18 nns car as joey logano runs in it, when one of the cup guys is not behind the wheel the cars are not up to the same standards. for example, at road america in 2011, a race that michael mcdowell was driving the #18 car, the pit crew for that week was rented from todd bodine's truck team, the crew that pitted for kyle busch couldn't be bothered to fly, out without rowdy behind the wheel. so don't critized truex unfairly, in fact most of the time when he ran the #18 it was with one of the #20 teams cars and second-tier crew. 726. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Random stats from this race: Kyle Busch ties Geoff Bodine and Dale Jr. with his 63rd podium for 22nd in the Modern era. This was Kyle Busch's 6th Top 5 in 9 Chase races, making this his best career Chase by far,even though he isn't actually in The Chase. Denny Hamlin becomes the 26th driver in the Modern era to reach 60 career Podiums. Kasey Kahne has matched his career best season Top 10 total of 19 and currently has a career best season average finish of 12.9,his previous best was 15.5 back in 2006. Brad Keselowski's 11th consecutive Top 11 finish and 17th Top 9 in the last 19 races. That's Master Class consistency. Kurt Busch tied Kyle Petty with his 173rd Top 10 for 27th in the Modern era. Jeff Gordon's 52nd career Crash-Out and still one career lap led short of D.W 727. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave, my reason for criticizing Ryan Truex isn't because of what he did in the #18 car, it's because I've noticed that his attitude is much different that what it was at the beginning of the season. After the Dover race when he lost the lead after being slowed down by two lapped cars. Understandable considering he had his 1st victory in his sights. But then he did a piece of ESPN that aired for the Loudon race, five races later, and he clearly wasn't over it. And then in the pre-race show, he was asked about it and rather than deferring the question and focusing on the task at hand, he answered it truthfully. If it was just a performance issue, I would say "at least he's doing the best he can". But I can't help but feel that he's still distracted about "the one that got away", rather than moving on and focusing on the task at hand. Maybe he'll change my mind this weekend at Homestead, but for now I still think he's not entirely focused. 728. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason Jimmie is ahead is simple. He has had the same equipment as Jeff for his whole career and has mightily outperformed Gordon. Plus he is a much better season closer which is an important factor to me. They have had identical equipment (and if they haven't, then that is Jeff's fault, he is the senior HMS driver and co owns the freaking team) and identical career arcs. Jimmie already has more championships and is only 26 wins behind Jeff despite 8 less seasons. No he hasn't performed at road courses and plate tracks like Jeff has, but his performances at the other oddball tracks (Dover, Phoenix, Loudon, Indy, Pocono, Darlington) as well as a mastery of the cookie cutters that every team tries to master cause they are half the schedule (Vegas, Cali, Charlotte, Kansas, Atlanta) show he can perform on a wide range of tracks. 729. cjs3872 posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is Jack Roush trying to make Ricky Stenhouse's rookie season next year a train wreck? He just announced that Jimmy Fennig is going to be Carl Edwards' crew chief next year. Now that will certainly bring Edwards back to where we're accustomed to seeing him, which is at the front of the field, but he's not going to give Stenhouse a seasoned crew chief when he'll need it most? Roush announces that Scott Graves is going to be Stenhouse's crew chief next year. ave very little dispute that he's competent, but he needs someone that has experience, and Graves doesn't have that. That, plus the fact that Stenhouse doesn't have a mentor at Roush, which is a big reason why Jeff Burton and Matt Kenseth did so well early in their stay there, is going to make his rookie season in Cup a series of disasters waiting to happen. If any driver has entered the Cup series needing an experience mentor, it's the often-wild Stenhouse. 730. Talk4Tar posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm pulling for Brad and Buescher to win their respective championships, and while I was pulling for Sadler to win the Nationwide title as a "lame duck" driver, I've come to terms with the fact that it probably won't happen at this point. Stenhouse will more than likely win back-to-back Nationwide titles since Martin Truex, Jr. in '04 and '05. Truex was also, until Stenhouse, the last Nationwide driver to win the Nationwide championship. So both of our most recent Nationwide regular champions, if nothing happens at Homestead, will have won back-to-back titles prior to moving up to Cup." Very disappointed by this. Stenhouse is a classless driver who is essentially a weapon on the track. I like hard charging aggressive drivers, but anyone who feels the need to wreck another driver to win a Championship simply has no class or dignity as a driver. I haven't respect Stenhouse since he gifted the ARCA title to Justin Allgaier. The fact that he is going to win a second championship, especially over a driver with as much class and grace as Elliot Sadler is a true disappointment to me as a race fan. I'd rather see Kyle Busch win another Nationwide title than see Stenhouse win. 731. Flywheel posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @721 "Unfortunately, this was pre-"lucky dog" days when drivers actually had to earn their laps back, and Jeff was never able to pass the Fords of Rudd and Jarrett and settled for 12th place, the highest finishing car one lap down." Yes, because bleeding heart liberals like you have made things SO much better, both in NASCAR, and the real world. Some people think you should have to earn things, not receive a hand out. 732. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, it is obvious that Roush's priority is getting Carl Edwards back to championship-contending form and Jack Roush clearly views Carl as the face of his organization. 733. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Flywheel, I believe he was saying it was unfortunate for Jeff. I think everyone on this board agrees that there are too many ways to get handed laps back now. 734. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As far as the Gordon/Johnson debate, other than championships and aerodynamic intermediate tracks, where does Johnson have Gordon beat?" Head to head. Jeff got all his 10 win seasons before JJ. Jimmie got his while battling Jeff for the title. Jeff only won all those races in the 90s cause JJ wasn't around yet (also Dale was hurt and RCR was RCR). And again, I concede Jeff is a better plate races and road racer than Jimmie. That isn't arguable. But looking at the big picture, Jimmie is the better overall race car driver. He has proven this by beating Jeff with identical equipment, usually handily. I know '08-'10 was a write off for Jeff due to injury, but the numbers still favor Jimmie except for the road courses and plate tracks which make up 6 races of the 36 race schedule. Jeff has 0 championships and 27 wins since Jimmie began as a full time competitor. Jimmie has 5 championships and 60 wins against Jeff. Even removing '08-'10, that is 2 championships and 40 wins to 0 and 27 for Jeff. And even in big name races (which I put much less stock in than most), since 2002, Jeff and Jimmie each have one Daytona 500 win. Considering Jeff is the winningest plate driver ever and drafting is far and away JJ's kryptonite, that says a lot. They are both also tied with 2 wins in 500 mile races at Darlington. But Jimmie had 4 Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at The Brickyard wins compared to Jeff's one. And let's not forget Jimmie's 3 World 600 wins (in a row!) to Jeff's zero, and also has 3 All Star race wins to Jeff's zero. And look, I'm not just discounting everything that happened before Jimmie showed up. Jeff's pre-2002 stats are simply mind blowing. 4 championships, 59 wins, 2 Daytona 500s, 4 straight Southern 500s, 3 World 600s, and 3 Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at The Brickyard wins including the inaugural Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at The Brickyard are amazing. He his sudden halt in relative productivity once Jimmie showed up has to be considered. Did he get all those wins and titles cause Jimmie was in the desert at the time? So you put the whole picture together, and I just don't see how Jeff can be put ahead of Jimmie. I can do a stat breakdown if y'all want. 735. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Flywheel, did you even read my post? I said that if there was a welfare system, then Jeff would have gotten back on the lead lap and been in contention for a top five finish, and maybe even finished in the top 3, which would have given him the correct amount of points required to win the title. That's all I said. I never expressed favoritism towards the welfare system, nor did I express dissent towards it in that post. All I did was point out the fact that if today's welfare system was in place back in '96, Jeff would have regained his lap and would have a great chance at finishing in the top five and gaining more points on Terry Labonte. For you to make assumptions like that is just inaccurate and borderline immature. And just for the record, I'm not liberal or conservative. I'm independent because I see corruption and bias on both sides of the political agenda, and don't want to identify myself with either side. As for the welfare system, I am in favor of the "lucky dog" because it gives drivers an added incentive to race each other if they're not on the lead lap. It's he wave-arounds that I have a problem with as they make it far too easy to get back on the lead lap with little to no effort whatsoever (Stenhouse at Kansas anyone?). 18fan (#733), in short, that was my whole point. It's unfortunate for Jeff that there was no welfare system in place back in '96, and I do agree that it is way too easy for drivers to regain laps nowadays. Before it was very hard, now it's very easy. If I had to choose, I'd side with the very hard method. Talk4Tar, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Stenhouse is classless, but I do agree that there is a level of maturity of which he lacks a great deal of. I still can't believe that he blamed Erik Darnell for him running over his own crew members (including injuring his jackman) at the first Kentucky race this season. Not only did he take no responsibility for his mistake, but he blamed a lapped car who had nothing to do with it and made himself look stupid in the process. And yes I do remember when he wrecked Scott Speed in the ARCA finale in '08 when they were battling for the championship, and then Speed repaid the favor later in the race and pretty much handed the title to Justin Allgaier. He got what he deserved in that exchange. 736. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff has 0 championships and 27 wins since Jimmie began as a full time competitor." Nah,man,Gordon has 0 Championships and 28 wins since Johnson began full-time. Basic stats since 2002: Wins: Jimmie Johnson 60-Tony Stewart 35-Jeff Gordon 28-Kyle Busch 24-Kurt Busch 24 Top 5's: Jimmie Johnson 166-Jeff Gordon 150-Tony Stewart 135-Matt Kenseth 117 Top 10's: Jimmie Johnson 248-Jeff Gordon 223-Tony Stewart 216-Matt Kenseth 206 Poles: Ryan Newman 48-Jeff Gordon 33-Jimmie Johnson 29-Kasey Kahne 26 Laps Led: 1. Jimmie Johnson 13,831 2. Jeff Gordon 10,105 3. Tony Stewart 9,616 4. Kyle Busch 8,371 5. Kurt Busch 7,007 6. Matt Kenseth 6.879 Does Chad Knaus figure anywhere in the "Jimmie Johnson is better than Gordon" debate? I mean Ray Evernham left Gordon before the end of 1999. 737. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting thing about Jimmie this year. Looking at the numbers across the board, this year has been close to the best year of his career. 738. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, since 2002 Jeff has won four Talladega races (including the sweep in '07), four Gatorade Duels, and one Firecracker 400 as well. Jimmie in the exact same equipment as won two Talladega races (one of which came because Junior opted to push because Jimmie is a bad drafter), the Shootout, and one Gatorade Duel race. Not to mention the fact that Jeff won only twice at Talladega, four times at Daytona, twice won the Shootout, and had one Gatorade Duel win before Jimmie. So let's take a look at the numbers: Pre-2002 Daytona Wins: Jeff Gordon - 7 Talladega Wins: Jeff Gordon - 2 2002-present Daytona Wins: Jeff Gordon - 5 Jimmie Johnson - 3 Talladega Wins: Jeff Gordon - 4 Jimmie Johnson - 2 The Daytona 500 is only one race that happens only once a year, while there are five Daytona races and two Talladega races each year. Jeff's Daytona win total has dropped since 2002, but it is still higher than Jimmie's in the same equipment. And not only does he have twice as many Talladega wins since 2002 as Jimmie, but he has twice as many as he did pre-2002, so he himself has only improved in that regard. Here's another stat: Since 2002, Jimmie has created three Talladega wrecks (both '05 races, plus he stupidly cut down on Jeff in 2010 and caused the field to back up and created a wreck when cars had to dodge him), while Jeff has created none. So right there, Jeff is better at Talladega and Daytona in terms of both winning and not creating big wrecks. Despite being older and being in 3500 pound stock cars for 20 years, Jeff has not only not lost a beat, but he's actually gotten better as time has gone on. 739. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This season for Jimmie will be reminiscent of Jeff Gordon's '96 season. He has great numbers across the board and has similar numbers to the driver he is battling for the championship, and yet he will lose the title because of one too many bad finishes. Why is it that Jeff Gordon is regarded as choking away the '96 title for having engine troubles at Charlotte, but no one has made a claim that Jimmie Johnson has choked away the '12 title for racing too hard too early in the race and crashing himself? Let me be the first one to say it then: When Jimmie Johnson loses the 2012 championship in four days, it won't be because Brad beat him, it'll be because he choked it away. And why did he choke it away? Because he can't beat someone who is stronger mentally than him unless his crew chief takes away their information, which he can't do because Brad doesn't drive an HMS car and therefore has no information to share with them. Jimmie finally met his match, and he knew he couldn't beat Brad with two to go...and CHOKED. 740. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright JG24Fan, I have some stats for you regarding Dale, Jeff And Jimmie. RCR 1983-present Starts: 2041 Wins: 101 Laps Led: 31357 Top 5: 424 Championships: 6 Dale Earnhardt 1984-2001 (% of RCR '83-present responsible for) Starts: 518 (25.4%) Wins: 67 (66.3%) Laps Led: 21502 (68.6%) Top 5: 225 (53.1%) Championships: 6 (100 %) Hendrick Motorsports 1995-present Starts: 2373 Wins: 172 Laps Led: 45846 Top 5: 640 Championships: 10 Jeff Gordon 1995-present (% of HMS '95-present responsible for) Starts: 626 (26.4%) Wins: 84 (48.8%) Laps Led: 22457 (48.9%) Top 5: 283 (44.2%) Championships: 4 (40%) Jimmie Johnson 2002-present (% of HMS '95 to present responsible for) Starts: 395 (16.6%) Wins: 60 (34.9%) Laps Led: 13831 (30.2%) Top 5: 166 (25.9%) Championships: 5 (50%) I chose what I consider each organization's quality years. For RCR it was '83 to present, and for HMS it is the Monte Carlo years, '95 to present. I also chose what I call "strength" stats which are wins, laps led, Top 5s, and of course championships. First off, this shows any Dale/Jeff comparisons are ridiculous. Although they have nearly identical percentages as far as quality starts for their organization, Dale's percentages are SO much higher it is unreal. He added much more strength to RCR than Jeff did for HMS. Yet their overall career stats are close and they have made almost the same number of overall starts. So I'm just gonna come out and say it: anyone who thinks Jeff is better than Dale has no idea what they are talking about. As for Jeff vs Jimmie, you can see I put Jimmie at a huge disadvantage counting what he is responsible for from '95 to present even though he didn't begin his quality career until 2002. Yet his responsibility for HMS' strength isn't that far off of Jeff's when you think about it despite the massive handicap. THAT is why Jimmie ranks higher than Jeff. If you guys want, I can go further in depth with stats, comparing Jeff's career when JJ wasn't in the field vs his time head to head against JJ. And I can compare JJ's stats from '08-'10 when Jeff was hurt against his stats in '02-'07 and '11-'12 with a healthy Jeff. 741. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does Chad Knaus figure anywhere in the "Jimmie Johnson is better than Gordon" debate?" Shall I remind you who was a Rainbow Warrior from '95-'97? And Paul, what part of this did you miss? "No he hasn't performed at road courses and plate tracks like Jeff has" "Considering Jeff is the winningest plate driver ever and drafting is far and away JJ's kryptonite" Jimmie can't draft. Period (except in '06). Just like Jeff can't close seasons (except in '98). 742. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I consider Jeff closing the season in 95 and 97 and 01 because he actually won the Championship and won the most races and dominated the most races in all seasons but 1997. I especially count 2001, considering he had a 349 point lead,which is ridiculous to dismiss just because you want to. "Dale's percentages are SO much higher it is unreal." Does this have anything to do with Dale being the only driver at RCR until 1997? "Shall I remind you who was a Rainbow Warrior from '95-'97?" He was a rear tire changer,that doesn't come close to being a Crew Chief. 743. Sean posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, there was a LOT here I wanted to respond to. "Overrated no way, underrated, hell yea." Since he's 3rd in wins and 4th in titles, if one doesn't believe he's a top five driver (which I don't) then he is indeed overrated. "Guys like James Buescher, Parker Kligerman, Nelson Piquet, Jr., Joey Coulter, Ryan Blaney, and Kyle Larson have great attitudes" Well, they're more appealing than most of the current Cup drivers, that's for sure. "As for the Nationwide drivers you listed, I think we can all agree that Stenhouse has all the talent to succeed in Cup, especially under the current points system that doesn't reward bad finishes any less than good finishes." Uh, yeah it does. This points system like every points system NASCAR has ever had rewards points racing and consistency far too much, then people ask why there is points racing. The declines for the top positions need to be steeper (like the F1, CART, or IRL positions) with 2nd place getting 80% of the winner's points, 5th place getting 50-60%, and positions outside the top 25 preferably getting none or the same points (a la IndyCar). Stenhouse probably would have led the points over Sadler for most of this season had NASCAR had a correct points system. "I've made it clear that I'm not as impressed by Austin Dillon as you are cjs" This * 1000, but then I'm just biased against children/grandchildren of drivers ALL THE TIME. It causes me to argue that Davey Allison, Buddy Baker, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., and Dale Jarrett are all overrated (I'm harsher on most about Davey even though I certainly liked him more than most champions because people's expectations for what he would have done are over-the-top, but I guess most would say ONLY Junior of those was overrated). "Brad's version of how Rusty was to Earnhardt? Well, if Kyle Busch would get his head on straight, he would be the PERFECT candidate. But that remains to be seen." Well, there's one major thing in common. Neither of them remotely knew how to points race and because they were literally incapable of being consistent, their points finishes were usually always worse than how they actually ran on the track. I actually like Kyle more (and am probably the only one), because looking at a lot of old Rusty clips, he kind of disturbingly reminds me of Kevin Harvick. Oh, a FAR better driver of course, but in that video where Ernie Irvan said he would stop being as aggressive at that driver's meeting at Talladega (it actually wasn't an apology) Rusty was the one driver who refused to clap, just sitting there with his hands clasped and one leg over the other, in the same video where he says "You hit me, I'm gonna crash you" (thinking he was FAR cooler than he was). All this from a guy who wrecked more people intentionally than Irvan ever did (Irvan just overdrove for the most part...) I don't know, it just doesn't sit well with me. Sure, Rusty was a larger-than-life figure that few of today's drivers can match, but I think the irritating aspects of his personality are still QUITE COMMON among today's drivers... Having said that, he was an original and could also be funnier than many of today's drivers (paying his fine for saying "sucks" in pennies, and would sucks even be considered a swear word now?) But he often seemed more fake and contrived than a lot of his contemporaries (and STILL DOES in the booth). Not a fan. Still a top 15 driver all time though. 744. Sean posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyways, you have to consider the circumstances of those stats. The fact is that for 16 of the last 18 seasons, HMS has had far and away the best cars out there ('00 and '03 are the exceptions)." Not sure I agree. '95 - yes. '96 - yes. '97/'99 - I'd say the #88 was slightly stronger but Jarrett wasn't as good. First half of '98 - nobody particularly stood out between the #2, #6, #12, #24, and #88. Second half of '98 - yes. '00 - Penske seemed to have the best stuff but ZERO consistency. '01 - yes (Terry was just sucking and Nadeau wasn't all that great). '02 - I'd say Roush had the best stuff (Kurt won 4 times, Matt won 5 times, and Martin had a return to form), but Hendrick was close. '03 - I'd say Hendrick was closer to the top in that year overall than in 1997 or 2005...Jimmie finished a surprisingly close 2nd in points, Jeff led the most laps but had his unluckiest season until this year, Terry made an unexpected return to the top ten, and Nemechek won. '04 - yes. '05 - no. Roush was CLEARLY better, and that was one of Hendrick's worst seasons since '95 in terms of consistency (yeah, ten wins but when the three cars besides Jimmie missed the setup they missed BIG, and there's no way Roush wasn't better that year). '06-12 - yes. This is one of my points and why I'd still pick Gordon over Johnson. Hendrick DOES seem stronger now to me than it did during Jeff Gordon's power run in the late '90s. Besides Terry Labonte in '95-early '97, the other HMS cars really didn't run that well (hell, the other CHEVIES really didn't run that well). Yes, I understand that HMS figured out the Monte Carlo in a way RCR never really did, so I wouldn't use this to rate Gordon over Earnhardt. A lot of the time in the late '90s it seemed like Jarrett or Martin or Jeff Burton or Bobby Labonte would have stronger cars for most of the race but Gordon would either hold one of the Fords off in a weaker car ('97 Southern 500, and yes, I admit that he would have been punted for sure if that had been Earnhardt or Rusty), take the lead on a pit stop and then hold it due to aero push ('98 Michigan and Loudon), etc... In '98, a year when the Ford Taurus looked overwhelmingly dominant at the start (13 of the top 14 at Las Vegas or whatever?), Gordon managed to somehow beat all the Fords by a LOT. Hendrick is a LOT stronger now top to bottom in Johnson's reign than it was in Gordon's (and the other Hendrick cars are a lot closer to Johnson now than they were to Gordon then, which is a point to Johnson I guess). On balance, the #24 PROBABLY had the strongest cars in the late '90s (and DEFINITELY stronger than the #3), but I think in a lot of that period the #6, #88, and #99 were stronger and the #24 simply had the better driver, the better pit crew, and the better in-race strategies... While I'll give you that Gordon is not responsible for Hendrick's success, I do think it's silly to argue that he did not elevate the team at all allowing Johnson to piggyback off his success later (would anyone rate Matt Kenseth higher than Mark Martin at this point? It was Martin who elevated Roush to allow Kenseth to piggyback off the team's prior success, and I see the same deal to a lesser degree for Gordon here). Johnson has three great arguments for him: more titles, beating Gordon head-to-head, and facing more drivers in their prime than Gordon did, but I do think Gordon had to fight for his wins a lot more than Johnson did (because I think even in his title seasons of 1997-1998, as dominant as he was, the Fords seemed to have better cars in most of the actual races, and even if you disagree, they were AT LEAST closer than anyone was to Hendrick since 2005). Hell, nearly halfway through '98 JEREMY MAYFIELD was leading the points. How is that possible if Ford did not have a massive advantage at that point? (I'll still grant that Gordon probably had the best equipment in the second half of '98, but it wasn't by a lot...it was usually Evernham's pit calls that won him races by getting him clean air in a year when nobody could pass anyone thanks to the evil 5-and-5 rule). "Plus his propensity to get beat by his own teammates in the same equipment ('96, '07) can't be ruled out. Plus HMS' overall record of constant cheating penalties in the post 1991 "creative engineering is no longer tolerated with a wink anymore, quit doing it and we mean it" era, it is hard to tkae those numbers at face value." 2007 I'll give you. 1996 is just a demonstration of NASCAR's terrible points system and was a farce. The cheating argument I'll CERTAINLY give you (but it just makes Hendrick the new Junior Johnson team essentially...) "I still rank him ahead of Jimmie because HMS was not as dominant of a team in during Jeff's championship years ('95-'01) as it was during Jimmie's ('06-present). Jeff laid the foundation for a multi-championship winning team, while Jimmie was the ultimate benefactor of "right place, right time" and to his credit took the keys to a Ferrari and drove it for all its worth (which is more than I can say about Kyle Busch, both during his HMS years and JGR years). But if Jimmie were to walk into HMS in '92 as its newest driver, I don't think HMS becomes what it is today. Hell, during his Busch Series tenure Jimmie had fewer wins and top ten finishes in two full seasons than Cup-washout Todd Bodine had in two part-time seasons while driving for the same team. " Agree with most of that except I was impressed by Kyle Busch in the #5 and #18 (considering he did FAR better than either Labonte brother did in their latter years, and Jimmie had the #48 built around him while Kyle didn't have either of those teams built around him as MUCH), and I think Todd Bodine was really underrated in Cup and overachieved in garbage a LOT. "It is undeniable that Kyle Larson is by far the most talented USAC driver since Tony himself." J.J. Yeley won a USAC Triple Crown in between. Yeah, his NASCAR and IRL performances were pretty awful (sure, a top ten in the Indy 500, but it was the year Eddie Cheever won), which makes people neglect the rest of his career, but I could still see an argument for him over Larson (although Larson certainly EXCITES me more as a prospect). "Give me the Latford system any day over Brian France's piece of crap current system." Yes, but the Latford system was also a piece of crap. It had a place in the mid-1970s when NASCAR was trying to encourage drivers to run the full schedule, but always awarded mid-pack positions too much and top positions not enough. It should have been phased out in the late '80s/early '90s in favor of a steeper system once pretty much everyone was running the full schedule. 745. Sean posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He's also the same guy who declined to hire Brad Keselowski and signed Danica instead. How's that worked out for him?" Probably due to Hendrick pressure. Rick Hendrick seems to think having EVERY SINGLE POPULAR DRIVER under his umbrella will make people forget about his felony conviction and his team's history of cheating. It's to the point where I'm ALMOST willing to root for anyone not affiliated with Hendrick. No single team should have 7 of the 10 most popular drivers on one team (or really two if you count Stewart-Haas as something separate, which I don't). It'll be interesting to see if Danica beats Junior in MPD voting next year though. I personally think Hendrick would be much stronger now if he'd ended up with Kyle and Brad in the other two cars rather than Martin, Mears, Kahne, and Junior. However, Kyle and Brad are probably better off now as they probably get much more attention from their current teams than they would have playing second-fiddle to Jimmie... I agree with most of what Paul wrote in 716, and I don't like either Jeff or Jimmie. "But speaking from a consistency factor, I think Terry deserved it because they had equal top fives and top tens, but he had fewer bad finishes." But I don't agree with that, and I don't understand why Terry having seven 21st-30th place finishes versus Jeff's seven finishes of 31st or worse trumps eight more wins and twice the laps led. No other points system would lead to a result like that. Terry would have needed MANY MORE top fives/top tens to cancel out the eight fewer wins in my book. At least with a superior points system... I'm not saying the champion should be the driver who won the most races. Jeff Gordon didn't deserve it in '99. Matt Kenseth didn't deserve it in '02 (actually, NO ONE DID). Kasey Kahne didn't deserve it in '06. Etc... But having a driver lose with the same number of top 5s/top 10s and eight more wins is a farce. "While I was pulling for Sadler to win the Nationwide title as a "lame duck" driver, I've come to terms with the fact that it probably won't happen at this point." Huh? I think it probably WILL happen. If Joey Logano can win 9 races in a partial Nationwide season for JGR (and JGR has been consistently dominant in Nationwide since switching to Toyota), Sadler and Vickers will probably be the leading title threats. I find both of those outcomes rather unappetizing as I'd always rather see a younger/developing driver get it (like James Buescher; Bayne and Smith despite their Cup experience would be fine since they're still youngish), but given Toyota's dominance I'm expecting a JGR championship and I think Sadler is more consistent than Vickers. If Sadler was still in the #2 car, he might lose to Bayne, but I think in a JGR car (which can make Logano look like a SUPERHERO) he'll destroy Bayne. "Yes, because bleeding heart liberals like you have made things SO much better, both in NASCAR, and the real world. Some people think you should have to earn things, not receive a hand out." 1. The lucky dog is a competition gimmick. I DON'T see how it has anything to do with politics, and I know left-leaning NASCAR fans who don't like it. 2. It's not like the old gentlemen's agreement with drivers far too often (especially 1997 on) slamming on the brakes to let teammates get a lap back was much purer (watch Jeff Burton letting Mark Martin get his lap back at Michigan in '97 before he ultimately won, or Jerry Nadeau doing the same for Jeff Gordon in the middle of the '01 Atlanta future-classic race). I think the wave-around is the best way and I would support unlimited wave-arounds (just scrapping the lucky dog) IF all cautions were legitimate and there were as few cautions as there used to be in the mid-'90s. Since that's not the case, I don't know what I support, but I definitely think the wave-around is superior to having cars on the tail end of the lead lap which was dangerous (not allowing the wave-around cars to pit adds another interesting strategy factor as well). The lucky dog is pretty cheesy though. I grant that. "Interesting thing about Jimmie this year. Looking at the numbers across the board, this year has been close to the best year of his career." His year looks much better statistically than it has actually watching the races. He's been far too mistake-prone since the start of 2010 honestly. I've been much more impressed with Denny Hamlin's actual DRIVING. Brad of course is #1 in NASCAR. "He has great numbers across the board and has similar numbers to the driver he is battling for the championship, and yet he will lose the title because of one too many bad finishes. Why is it that Jeff Gordon is regarded as choking away the '96 title for having engine troubles at Charlotte, but no one has made a claim that Jimmie Johnson has choked away the '12 title for racing too hard too early in the race and crashing himself?" 1. Jeff and Terry theoretically had the same equipment. Jimmie's equipment is much stronger than Brad's. 2. Brad's numbers are a LOT closer. He has the same number of wins while also being more consistent in terms of average finish. Yes, Jimmie has more top fives, top tens, and laps led, but with Brad having the same number of wins, better consistency, and weaker equipment than Jimmie, Brad's 2012 looks FAR stronger than Terry's 1996 did. 3. Jimmie TOTALLY choked, and I'd say a lot more than Gordon did. Gordon's problems were mechanical; Johnson's were self-inflicted. He should have been out of the title chase after Kansas, but his TEAM kept him in it. Not impressed with his driving this year at all (even though his stats still look good). 746. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What really is a shame is that we never really got to see Jeff vs. Dale when both were in their primes. Just when Jeff was becoming a title contender is when RCR began going downhill and then Dale got hurt. And Jeff vs. Dale is still the most overblown rivalry in NASCAR. 747. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bad Brad is preparing to win a Championship, and all we can talk about is "who's better". I said earlier that I thought that this season was a kinda parallel to the 1980 season. Like Dale Brad has five wins,and also like Dale, his contender is someone who took a "year off" before returning to form to claim another Championship,and again like Dale Brad is in only his second competitive season with the #2 car. 748. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I understand that HMS figured out the Monte Carlo in a way RCR never really did" RCR had the leg up on the new car for 2000 and Hendrick was behind, which is a huge reason for Gordon's struggles and why Big E finished second in the points that season. 749. Baker posted: 11.14.2012 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul - "He's also the same guy who declined to hire Brad Keselowski and signed Danica instead. How's that worked out for him?" -Seriously? The circumstances are why that went down that way. Do you think Hendrick would have let Keselowski slip away from him and his satelite teams if he had room? Tony Stewart had a two car team as a start up owner and had no room for another driver at the time. Fast forward 3 years and he has build that team from a mole hill into a mountain albiet not the mountain or a Hendrick, Roush, or Gibbs but the organization is stronger 10 fold since he took over. There simply was no room for Keselowski back then. And do you seriously think Tony Stewart hired Danica Patrick for her talent? Ha he hired her for the only thing she is good for and that is bringing in the money. She is a sponser waiting to happen. Even if Godaddy leaves SHR will never have trouble finding money as long as her pretty face is on the team.- Paul- "This season for Jimmie will be reminiscent of Jeff Gordon's '96 season. He has great numbers across the board and has similar numbers to the driver he is battling for the championship, and yet he will lose the title because of one too many bad finishes. Why is it that Jeff Gordon is regarded as choking away the '96 title for having engine troubles at Charlotte, but no one has made a claim that Jimmie Johnson has choked away the '12 title for racing too hard too early in the race and crashing himself? Let me be the first one to say it then: When Jimmie Johnson loses the 2012 championship in four days, it won't be because Brad beat him, it'll be because he choked it away. And why did he choke it away? Because he can't beat someone who is stronger mentally than him unless his crew chief takes away their information, which he can't do because Brad doesn't drive an HMS car and therefore has no information to share with them. Jimmie finally met his match, and he knew he couldn't beat Brad with two to go...and CHOKED." -He did choke. Jimmie Johnson has always choked when forced to drive hard. Infact one of the only times I have seen him pushed and he didn't drive over his head was last week at Texas. In his previous 5 championships he had no pressure and no competition on his heals. He finally has a driver pushing him and like you said he choked.- Sean- "J.J. Yeley won a USAC Triple Crown in between. Yeah, his NASCAR and IRL performances were pretty awful (sure, a top ten in the Indy 500, but it was the year Eddie Cheever won), which makes people neglect the rest of his career, but I could still see an argument for him over Larson (although Larson certainly EXCITES me more as a prospect). -I watched J.J. Yeley and he was never on the level of Kyle Larson and that was even after more experience than Larson has now. I watch USAC and World of Outlaws far far far more than NASCAR and trust me Kyle Larson is the most talented driver of my era. He will do great things where ever his racing career takes him.- 750. BON GORDON posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Dale was better than Jeff but not by much. Mentally tougher for sure as well but I've never thought Dale was the best either. The best, well ill go with a tie between Petty and Pearson, maybe even throw in Bobby Allison. 751. cjs3872 posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention, JG24FF, that Gordon had a new crew chief in 2000, so there was adjusting to do there, as well. The thing about the Latford points system, which nobody seems to get, is that while it was originally put in place in 1975 to get more teams to run the full season, as was the provisional system the following year, but it actually was weighted more toward the top ten finishers than the current points system. That's because it was 5 points per position in the top 5 and four throughout the rest of the top ten, with three per position from 11th through the balance of the field. But giving more points to the higher positions actually gave the competitors something to race for, because it meant more than finishing back in th field. But today's points system doesn't make a battle for second place any more important than one for 32nd place. That's what I have a problem with. That's why I say leave the points from 11th-last place exactly what they are and place more weight on the top finishing positions, and leave the vonus points where they are. For instance, under my proposed alterations, a race winner could get nearly twice as many points as the 11th place finisher gets. With a 62-point maximum for winning and leading the most laps, a race winner could get 29 more points than the 11th-place finisher, or twice the boost he would get now over the 11th-place finisher. But I'm fine with the one-point per position outside the top ten, because that's about what it should be. Under my system, which I've displayed on numerous coments sections, the winner would get 60 points, 61 if you count the automatic bonus for leading the race, second would get 55, and it would drop off three per position through sixth, which would get 43 points. From there, my system would call for a two-point per position dropoff through 11th place, which would get the current 33 points, and then everyone else would get what they get now. I would be interested to see, and David is the math whiz among the posters, what the points would look like now with NASCAR's reset, combined with my points system of scoring in the races since. And when big travesties where the points are concerned are mentioned, I believe that 1985 was a far bigger travesty than 1996 ever was, because Darrell Waltrip wasn't even competitve most of the year, but when Bill Elliott and his team choked after the Southern 500 (and that was the very definition of choke), Waltrip was there to pick up the pieces. And also, I believe that Jeff Gordon, and to a lesser extent Jimmie Johnson, were the biggest victims of the change to the new car (and the gear rule), as far as plate racing is concerned, because, for the most part, their fortunes at the plate tracks plummetted when that car was introduced. In fact, Johnson's win at Talladega last year is Hendrick's only plate win since 2008. But the reason the decision was made to have Johnson lead Dale, Jr. in that race was because Dale, Jr. actually had a faster car, but with last year's tandem drafting, you needed the faster car to be the trailing car, not the lead car, because if the faster car was the lead car, neither car went anywhere. In fact, they had tried it the other way, Johnson couldn't keep up, which slowed both cars down. Why do you think so many teams wanted the #21 car to be pushing them last year in the plate races, and why do you think that Trevor Bayne never wanted to lead? It's because everyone knew that the #21 car was the fastest in the plate races last year, and Bayne knew that leading in the fastest car would be counterproductive with the tandem drafting of last year, because if he pulled away, he would actually slow both cars down. 752. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Paul, what part of this did you miss? "No he hasn't performed at road courses and plate tracks like Jeff has" "Considering Jeff is the winningest plate driver ever and drafting is far and away JJ's kryptonite"" DSFF, in post 734, you said "Jeff and Jimmie each have one Daytona 500 win. Considering Jeff is the winningest plate driver ever and drafting is far and away JJ's kryptonite, that says a lot." You didn't mention any of his other Daytona or Talladega wins when they were going head-to-head, so I put them down in response to this. All you listed was their total Daytona 500 wins since 2002, which is also the same number of Daytona 500 wins as the greatest restrictor plate driver of all-time, Dale Earnhardt, had between 1975 and 2001. Saying Jeff is on the same level as Jimmie Johnson just because he only has one Daytona 500 since since 2002 doesn't do his post-2002 plate track record justice. Going by the scale that you just put down, I guess that makes Michael Waltrip and Ryan Newman equally as good on plate tracks as well considering how they too have one Daytona 500 win since 2002. "This points system like every points system NASCAR has ever had rewards points racing and consistency far too much, then people ask why there is points racing." The current points system rewards the same amount of points for moving from 3rd to 2nd (1 point) and it does for moving from 43rd to 42nd (1 point). Just look at the Nationwide Series this season. Stenhouse shouldn't have a 20-point lead going into the final race of the season. He has three finishes of 25th or worse, while Sadler only has two finishes of 20th or worse (with a worst finish of 24th). The only reason why Stenhouse has the lead in the points at this stage is because he has more wins, and wins are the only position rewarded on a greater scale than any other position. And one of the reasons why drivers are points racing is because there is no greater reward for moving up to the top five or top ten than from moving up to the top forty. If the points were of similar scale to the Latford system, not only would Stenhouse's lead be much smaller (and maybe nonexistent), but you would see more aggressive racing on the track. Right now there's no incentive to gaining a position because each position is worth one point, with no scale increase as you move up the leaderboard. "because I think even in his title seasons of 1997-1998, as dominant as he was, the Fords seemed to have better cars in most of the actual races," I do agree with this. I think the best measurement to determine how fast a car was is to look at the total laps led. Dale Jarrett led over 400 more laps and had more lead lap finishes than Jeff in '97, and Mark Martin led more laps than Jeff in '98. A better driver would have beaten Jeff with superior cars those two seasons, and the Ford Tauruses were very fast from '97 to '05 (with '01 being the exception). No disrespect to DJ and Mark, but they just weren't good enough to beat Jeff those two seasons and take advantage of their superior Fords. Plus, I think Jeff was a "man on a mission" after being wrecked by Rusty at Richmond and running out of fuel in the All-Star race. The only time I've ever seen Jimmie become a "man on a mission" was after Talladega in the fall of '07 after Chad Knaus cut off the information sharing between the #24 and #48 teams and "suddenly" made gave Jimmie superior cars. "and would sucks even be considered a swear word now?" I can't remember which race it was (I think it was Las Vegas '11), but Tony Stewart said in response to his 2nd place finish "Second [place] sucks" on camera, and he wasn't fined for his language. "But I don't agree with that, and I don't understand why Terry having seven 21st-30th place finishes versus Jeff's seven finishes of 31st or worse trumps eight more wins and twice the laps led." That's a fair point, Sean. I guess it depends on where you stand on these issues. I prefer champions to be crowned based primarily on consistency with dominance a secondary priority, while it seems like you prefer the opposite with dominance as a primary priority and consistency secondary. I can see where you're coming from in that respect because Jeff did have 8 more wins and equal top fives and top tens as Terry, but lost the title solely because he had too many bad finishes. The more I hear on this argument, the more I weaken my stance as to which of them deserved it more that year. If it's any consolation, Terry did have a better average finish of 8.2 to Jeff's 9.5 (even 3rd place finisher Dale Jarrett had a better average finish than Jeff). "but I could still see an argument for him over Larson (although Larson certainly EXCITES me more as a prospect)." I agree with this. I couldn't tell you who J.J. Yeley had to beat to win the USAC Triple Crown in '03, but I do know that he did win the Triple Crown and became only the 2nd driver to do so, after Tony Stewart. Also, I am more excited about Kyle Larson because already he has shown more potential than Yeley ever did. The moment that he lost to David Gilliland in a family-owned car to Yeley's JGR car at Kentucky '06, I knew that Yeley was at least not as good as Gilliland, who looks to be a career 3rd tier Cup driver. "It'll be interesting to see if Danica beats Junior in MPD voting next year though." I hope not because while I don't care for Junior and think he is the most overrated NASCAR driver of all-time, he at least has stock car talent and is capable of posting great finishes. I don't know of any driver who is more loved and resented as Junior and Danica, and I think the MPD award should go to the driver with the highest popularity score, where you add up their "LIKE" votes and subtract their "DISLIKE" votes. If that were the case, I don't think Junior wins the award as many times as he has. "His year looks much better statistically than it has actually watching the races. He's been far too mistake-prone since the start of 2010 honestly. I've been much more impressed with Denny Hamlin's actual DRIVING. Brad of course is #1 in NASCAR." I agree with all four points made in this statement. Nobody has won as many championships in spite of their self than Jimmie Johnson. From stupidly stacking the field up at Talladega '10 and wrecking his teammate in the process, to his "epic fail" retaliation against Kurt Busch at Richmond '11, to turning himself head-on into the wall at Charlotte '11, to his latest self-inflicted wounds at Kansas and Phoenix, no NASCAR driver has had as much success in spite of their own incapabilities than him. If not for a superior car and team, Jimmie is out of the championship picture at this point and may not even be in the top five in points. Denny is a more capable driver because he doesn't make mistakes in a lesser car than Jimmie. Brad is the best driver in the sport at this point because he doesn't make stupid mistakes and he has the Jeff Gordon-like ability of getting better as the race goes on. And when he wins the championship this weekend, he'll officially be recognized as the best driver in the sport. "Huh? I think it probably WILL happen. If Joey Logano can win 9 races in a partial Nationwide season for JGR (and JGR has been consistently dominant in Nationwide since switching to Toyota), Sadler and Vickers will probably be the leading title threats." Sean, I was talking about Sadler's 2012 Nationwide championship hopes. I think his title hopes for THIS YEAR are over. I think going to JGR will only increase his chances of winning the title in 2013 as they have had the superior Nationwide cars since '08 (with '11 being the exception as the #60 was the best car). They are already almost a lock for the owner's championship this season, and having a capable driver like Elliott Sadler running the full schedule only gives them the advantage of winning the driver's title next year. 753. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If it's any consolation, Terry did have a better average finish of 8.2 to Jeff's 9.5" Average finish in 2007: Jeff Gordon 7.3 +Dominated 7 races-Won 7 poles-21 Top 5's-30 Top 10's-6 wins Jimmie Johnson 10.8 +Dominated 2 races-Won 4 poles-20 Top 5's-24 Top 10's-10 wins The Chase just sucks. 754. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tony Stewart had a two car team as a start up owner and had no room for another driver at the time." So then why was Kevin Harvick briefly in discussions with SHR about joining them in 2010, before re-signing with RCR. "And do you seriously think Tony Stewart hired Danica Patrick for her talent?" Not once did I ever say that he hired her because of her talent. Here's a direct quote from Stewart from last August after he signed her: "She's very dedicated to taking the time and effort to make the transition from Indy cars to stock cars. She has talent, she has the right mindset and she has the proper drive and determination. It doesn't matter who it is you're looking for, those are the key attributes that you look for in a driver, and Danica's got them." First of all she's isn't fully dedicated. She hasn't completely figured out how to drive these cars, and now she wants to run the Indianapolis 500 as well next year. If you can't figure out how to drive a certain discipline of racing, how it jumping back-and-forth between two different disciplines going to help? Don't get me wrong Baker, I think you're exactly right about Stewart hiring her for her sponsorship. But that quote up above seems to indicate that he sees something in her that influenced his decision, which I think is complete BS. Too many times this year I have been scratching my head at the things she has done on the track. At Daytona she swerved right into David Ragan on the 2nd lap and caused him to t-bone Jimmie Johnson and created a multi-car wreck; she would then do the same thing to Mike Bliss at Atlanta. And at Kansas, she tried racing cars at the back on a one-groove track, got frustrated, intentionally turned Landon Cassill, and like an idiot wrecked herself. I think Stewart also hired her because he sees elements of himself in her. Not from a talent standpoint, but from a similar open-wheel background and an attitude standpoint, they are quite similar. She intentionally wrecked Hornish at Talladega after the race ended (and of course wasn't penalized), became the only driver to ever bitch about Regan Smith's driving at Bristol, and has had incidents with many other drivers that nobody else has had incidents with (McDowell, Shepherd, Buescher, Whitt, Hornish, Smith, Cassill). She is a female carbon-copy of Tony Stewart, minus the charisma and sheer driving talent, and I think that's why Stewart hired her because he likes people who have similar personalities as him. Just ask Kevin Harvick. 755. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of his 23 wins in 1997 and 1998, Jeff Gordon led the most laps in 10 of his wins and 2 in races he didn't win. Of the 28 non-restrictor plate races in 1997, the Ford Thunderbird led the most laps in 19 of them. Of the 29 non-restrictor plate races in 1998, the new Ford Taurus led the most laps in 18 of them. I think this proves that in 1997 and 1998 the Fords were the best cars, yet Gordon won both titles. 756. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think this proves that in 1997 and 1998 the Fords were the best cars, yet Gordon won both titles." Chevy wins: 1997 11 (10 with Gordon) 1998 16 (13 with Gordon) Gordon had 23 of the 27 Chevy wins. 757. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24, that's why I argue that Terry was more deserving of the title in '96 than Jeff. Because his average finish was over a full position higher than Jeff's, that's why I say that Terry was more deserving. But I will always argue that the Chase is what won Jimmie Johnson the '07 title. Jeff was still in the mode of "race consistent every race of the season", which he had done for the first 11 years of his career (and you know what they say, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks). Meanwhile, the Chase is perfect for Jimmie Johnson because he can't be consistent for an entire season due to his driving style. Without the Chase, I think Jimmie still wins two championships because he was the best driver in '06 and '09, but there's no way he could win five because he's far too mistake-prone to go five straight years at his best. All I can say about '07 is that he was 410 points back from Gordon when the Chase began, and with Jeff being at his best that season, there's no way Jimmie would have caught him. He benefited significantly from a points reset, and ultimately that's what won him the title. 758. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JG24, that's why I argue that Terry was more deserving of the title in '96 than Jeff. Because his average finish was over a full position higher than Jeff's" I disagree just based on WHERE Gordon won, not just the total. 1996 wins: Darlington sweep Dover sweep(Both races were 500 miles) Spring Bristol Dead of Winter Richmond Fall Martinsville The final North Wilkesboro race(Won on all four Short tracks) June Pocono The last Summer Talladega race(Gordon has a habit of winning first of and last of events) Terry only won at Charlotte and North Wilksboro and that,to me,isn't enough to justify Terry being worthy of the Championship, even though I do love Terry Labonte and he did score 37 more points. 759. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just a little comment about Jimmie's 4 race winning streak in 2007, mainly the race at Atlanta that he won with incredible luck. He actually never led a complete green flag lap in that race. He wasn't a factor until he took 2 tires on the last pit stop and then Denny Hamlin's car sputtered on the restart and caused a wreck, then on the Green-White-Checker, Junior's wheel fell off in turn 1 of the first lap of the GWC and that was when there was only 1 attempt. So under green he led basically half a lap. The race at Texas featured a great battle between Jimmie and Matt Kenseth that was awesome to watch. However, that race leaves a sour taste in my mouth because Kyle had the dominant car in that race and got screwed over by multiple bad pit stops, including the final one which cost him a bunch of track position. He also had the race won at Atlanta until Gustafson took 4 tires and Kyle ended up back in the pack and spun to avoid the mess caused by Hamlin not going on the restart and Truex slamming into the back of Denny. 760. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, here are the Chevy wins during the Jimmie Johnson Era Chevy Wins 2006: 23 (5 with Johnson) 2007: 26 (10 with Johnson) 2008: 11 (7 with Johnson) 2009: 18 (7 with Johnson) 2010: 18 (6 with Johnson) 2011: 18 (2 with Johnson) 2012: 14 (5 with Johnson) In each of those years, Chevy was the dominant brand (although in 2008 they were tied for wins with Carl Edwards, who had 8 of Ford's 11 wins, better than Johnson). In five of those seven years, Chevys won at least half of the races, and in none of those years did Jimmie Johnson win half of the races. The only year that he outperformed his equipment was in '08 when he won all but four of Chevy's 11 wins, with HMS winning only one other race. Looking back at these stats, I'm actually pretty disappointed by his '06 numbers. Yes he won the championship, both in overall points and via the Chase, but he only won a little over 1/5 of Chevy's total wins that season. Jeff outperformed his equipment twice in his four championship seasons, while Jimmie only did so once in his five championship seasons, and it came in one of his three championship seasons when he didn't score the most overall points. 761. Scott B posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Random stat of the week: If Brad K wins the championship this year in a Dodge and does the switch to Ford in 2013, he would be the first defending champion to make a manufacturer change since Tony Stewart won in a Pontiac in 2002 and returned with a Chevy in 2003. 762. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay I just saw the updated Truck entry list and this made me chuckle. Apparently Jason Leffler, who like Yeley was great in USAC and has done very little in NASCAR (although I do rank Leffler higher than Yeley because he does have 3 NASCAR wins), will be running double-duty this weekend; start-and-parking in Cup while running for Hillman Racing in Truck. I just chuckle at the fact that although he has been released by two different teams in the past 12 months, he always finds a way to bounce back on his feet and find a decent ride. First he wasn't re-signed by Turner following 2011 after five mostly underwhelming seasons in the #38; then he signed with KBM's Truck team for 2012, but parted ways with them near the halfway point; and since then he has driven for the likes of Jay Robinson's Cup team, TriStar's Cup team, and even made two starts for Turner after they didn't want him back for 2012. And now, he'll be racing for Mike Hillman's Truck team this weekend, a team that despite sponsorship issues had two really good runs at Martinsville and Phoenix. Say what you want about Leffler, but no matter which team fires him and no matter his level of talent, he always seems to have a ride in NASCAR. Now THAT is an art form in and of itself. 763. Talon64 posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "for whoever it was that was critizing ryan truex for not running as well in the #18 nns car as joey logano runs in it, when one of the cup guys is not behind the wheel the cars are not up to the same standards. for example, at road america in 2011, a race that michael mcdowell was driving the #18 car, the pit crew for that week was rented from todd bodine's truck team, the crew that pitted for kyle busch couldn't be bothered to fly, out without rowdy behind the wheel. so don't critized truex unfairly, in fact most of the time when he ran the #18 it was with one of the #20 teams cars and second-tier crew. " Yep, whenever Truex has run with JGR this season, #18 or #20, it was with Matthew Lucas as his crew chief. All but 1 of Logano's 21 starts this year has been with Adam Stevens. Stevens in 2012: 26 races, 9 wins (all with Logano), 13 top 5's, 20 top 10's, 6 poles, 1,135 laps led, 7.8 avg fin Lucas in 2012: 26 races, 13 top 5's, 20 top 10's, 3 poles, 267 laps led, 8.3 avg fin Truex has 1 top 5, 4 top 10's and a 9.7 avg fin in 6 starts with JGR and Lucas. All of Hamlin's 12 Nationwide starts this season have been with Lucas (8 top 5's, 9.5 avg fin), but they haven't been able to win a race. 764. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You have to consider the Chevy lineup vs the Ford lineup in '97 and '98. Chevy had jeff, the big winner. They also had Terry who never was a big winner, and the badly fading RCR who had Mike Skinner and a healing Dale. Then of course there was the clusterbomb of the #25 car. Meanwhile Ford had Martin and Burton in their primes, Yates had DJ at his apex, and Penske had a still lively Rusty and Mayfield who could be serviceable at times. Unlike Skinner, he could actually win. As for Jeff's 2000, his cars simply were not good. Yeah he had a new crew chief, but he had a new crew chief for the first time at Martinsville and Charlotte in '99, and in the Fall of '05 when he missed the playoofs and had a rare late season surge. He also had a new crew chief in 2011. The fact is HMS fell behind in '00. And yes, Jimmie folded under the pressure last week, not taking care of his right front tire. In the past, in his first 4 title seasons, he hit the Go button and nobody could keep up, resigning themselves to a title loss. The late season interviews of Kenseth in '06, Gordon in '07, Carl in '98 (especially Atlanta when he pricelessly realized JJ were 2nd), and Mark in '09 were depressing as hell. They were defeated competitors. But this year Brad simply refused to go away. Against this upstart contender, JJ once again hit the Go button at Martinsville and Texas, but Brad hung with him, posted career best finishes, and kept a visibly upbeat attitude. I honestly think Jimmie was stunned by this. So yes, he choked and will need to rely on a choke from the 2 team if he is to win it. He also choked in '04 and '05. 765. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The reason Jimmie is ahead is simple. He has had the same equipment as Jeff for his whole career and has mightily outperformed Gordon." True. I'll grant you that. The "Driver vs. Driver" feature on this site will tell you that. But then you go on to say: "They have had identical equipment...and identical career arcs." If this is true, then your previous argument about Jimmie "mightily" outperforming Jeff is not valid, because Jeff was well into his "arc" and Jimmie was just getting started with his. Let us look at their career "arcs". Jeff's first season (1993): 30 starts, 0 wins, 7 top fives, 11 top tens, 17.7 average finish, 14th in points Jimmie's first season (2002): 36 starts, 3 wins, 6 top fives, 21 top tens, 13.5 average finish, 5th in points Advantage: Jimmie. Jeff's second season (1994): 31 starts, 2 wins, 7 top fives, 14 top tens, 15.8 average finish, 8th in points Jimmie's second season (2003): 36 starts, 3 wins, 14 top fives, 20 top tens, 11.4 average finish, 2nd in points Advantage: Jimmie. Jeff's third season (1995): 31 starts, 7 wins, 17 top fives, 23 top tens, 9.5 average finish, 1st in points Jimmie's third season (2004): 36 starts, 8 wins, 20 top fives, 23 top tens, 12.1 average finish, 2nd in points Advantage: Jeff. Jeff's fourth season (1996): 31 starts, 10 wins, 21 top fives, 24 top tens, 9.5 average finish, 2nd in points Jimmie's fourth season (2005): 36 starts, 4 wins, 13 top fives, 22 top tens, 12.7 average finish, 5th in points Advantage: Jeff. Jeff's fifth season (1997): 32 starts, 10 wins, 22 top fives, 23 top tens, 9.6 average finish, 1st in points Jimmie's fifth season (2006): 36 starts, 5 wins, 13 top fives, 24 top tens, 9.7 average finish, 1st in points Advantage: Jeff. Jeff's sixth season (1998): 33 starts, 13 wins, 26 top fives, 28 top tens, 5.7 average finish, 1st in points Jimmie's sixth season (2007): 36 starts, 10 wins, 20 top fives, 24 top tens, 10.8 average finish, 1st in points Advantage: Jeff. Jeff's seventh season (1999): 34 starts, 7 wins, 18 top fives, 21 top tens, 12.9 average finish, 6th in points Jimmie's seventh season (2008): 36 starts, 7 wins, 15 top fives, 22 top tens, 10.5 average finish, 1st in points Advantage: Jimmie by a fender. Jeff's eighth season (2000): 34 starts, 3 wins, 11 top fives, 22 top tens, 12.9 average finish, 9th in points Jimmie's eighth season (2009): 36 starts, 7 wins, 16 top fives, 24 top tens, 11.1 average finish, 1st in points Advantage: Jimmie. Jeff's ninth season (2001): 36 starts, 6 wins, 18 top fives, 24 top tens, 11.0 average finish, 1st in points Jimmie's ninth season (2010): 36 starts, 6 wins, 17 top fives, 23 top tens, 12.2 average finish, 1st in points Advantage: Jeff. Jeff's tenth season (2002): 36 starts, 3 wins, 13 top fives, 20 top tens, 14.1 average finish, 4th in points Jimmie's tenth season (2011): 36 starts, 2 wins, 14 top fives, 21 top tens, 11.9 average finish, 6th in points Advantage: Jimmie by thismuch. Score Jeff: 5 Jimmie: 5 Wins during first ten seasons Jeff: 61 Jimmie: 55 Championships during first ten seasons Jeff: 4 Jimmie: 5 Looking back on the raw data, DSFF is correct. Their career arcs are very similar. Both of them won the title during their fifth, sixth, and ninth seasons, and they both suffered a minor "slump" of sorts during their tenth season, which is ironic considering that the tenth season should be a celebration of success. 766. Baker posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Tony had to say he hired here for her talent, dedication and determination and all that mumbo jumbo. How would it sound if any car owner said well I hired here because she has a pretty face, tight body and her milkshake brings all the sponsers to the yard. He was being politically correct and everyone knows it. Simple as you can get he hired her for the money she brings with her. Same reason Paul Menard keeps getting ride after ride even though no one in the garage can stand the guy and his lack of racing talent. 767. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, Carl in '08. 768. joey2448 posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but I don't think Gordon meant to wreck Bowyer the way he did. To me, it looks like Gordon was waiting on Bowyer to pass him on the high side, and then wreck him by hitting Bowyer in the left rear and spinning him. Instead, what happened was that Bowyer was leary of passing Gordon on the high side, and so turned down and went below Gordon, on the apron, and tried getting by him on the low side. As soon as Gordon saw this, he cranked the wheel left and hooked him into the wall. It was a split-second decision (and not a good one), but the only thing on Jeff's mind at the moment was getting even with Clint. I've read all the comments (Ok, maybe not ALL of them, haha) and I agree with some of the stuff that Paul has written. I don't agree with the move that Jeff pulled, but I'm a Gordon fan, and I always will be, whether I agree with what he did or not. If you claim that you're not a 24 fan anymore, then you were never a 24 fan to begin with. I stand by my favorite driver. That being said, GO BAD BRAD!!! It will be refreshing to see someone else win the championship, and especially seeing it's a first-time champion! I'm still nervous that something might happen to Brad, but finishing 15th or better is easily doable for that team. 769. Eric posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I don't think you did a fair analysis in terms of competition between Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon in terms of drivers that are hall of fame drivers. I agree that Jeff faced more Championship drivers though. Kurt Busch a cup champion like it or not. I agree that the only reason Kurt is a cup champion because of the chase. With that being said, Kurt will be going into the Hall of Fame at some point when he retires. There has been a ESPN chat early this year and one of the ESPN writers said Kurt is going to the NASCAR Hall of Fame after a lot of years after he retires because of his 2004 championship. The same writer noted Kurt's antics is the reason it would take Kurt a long time to get in after he retires. The problem with claiming what drivers will be going to the NASCAR Hall of Fame from the Jimmie Johnson era is the age of the drivers. I think there could a better reading on the Johnson era drivers even 5 years from new rather they are Hall of Fame or not. Outside of Greg Biffle, you have a lot of drivers in their 20's or 30's. Denny Hamlin has 22 wins and is going to be 32 years old next week is a great example of driver that could say is not a NASCAR Hall of Fame driver right now, but the same thing isn't likely to be true about Hamlin when 2023 come along with Denny as an older driver. Carl Edwards, Brad, Clint Bowyer, Kasey Kahne,and Kyle Busch are also are drivers that you can get a better reading if they are Hall of Fame driver based on wins. At the same time you can't say all the drivers you mentioned where at their peak when Jeff raced against them. Bill Elliott only won 5 times from 1993 to 2003 with Bill only having 1 win during Jeff Gordon's peak. Jeff's peak was 1995 to 2001. While Bill had had top 10 points finishes without wins, Bill as an owner driver hurt his performance on the track from 1995 to 2000. Bill was under his best under Earnhardt. Rusty Wallace had his best seasons under Earnhardt, not Gordon. Rusty was competitive and won races, but after 1996 Rusty only had 1 season over 1 win with it happening in 2000. Dale Earnhardt Sr. and Jeff were not at their peaks at the same. Jeff got a competitive Earnhardt from 1995 to 2001, but Jeff didn't get the best out of Earnhardt from July 1996 to the end of 1999 because Dale was racing hurt that time. RCR was falling behind and Dale also hurt and aging. 770. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) joey2448, I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts. If you watch Clint's on-board view, you'll see Jeff block the bottom, hoping that Clint would pass him on the high side. But Clint took a chance and tried passing Jeff on the inside in the middle of the turn, and Jeff quickly reacted to it and hooked him into the wall, unfortunately taking himself, Logano, and Almirola along with him. It was a retaliation gone bad, and I think Clint deserves part of the blame for passing Jeff on the inside after he was warned about him. Kyle Petty called him out for it on SPEED, saying that Clint was asking for it when he moved to the inside. If you were a Gordon fan going into that race, you will remain one afterwards regardless of how you felt about the retaliation. Similarly, if you didn't like Gordon, you probably still feel that way afterwards. I'd hate to think that Jeff gained fans by retaliating, and I'd hate to think that he lost some by retaliating. If you're a true fan of a driver, you'll stand by him/her through thick and thin, even if he displays an act of carelessness and unclassiness the way Gordon did in that moment. Over these last couple of days, I've gained some respect for 18fan and Talon64, who have always stood by their drivers (Kyle and Tony) through thick and thin and have to put up with all the shit from everybody else (myself included). So I guess now I have empathy towards them because now I know what it feels like to have my favorite drive get shit on by a lot of people. 771. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.14.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF funny error there regarding Carl Edwards but that's nothing compared to the error I made in that when I sent CJS a message saying that in the 92 AFC wildcard game between the Bills and the Oilers that the Bills blew the 32 point lead in the 2nd half when I should have said the Oilers were the ones who blew the 32 point lead in the 2nd half talk about brain fade there but I least I can laugh at myself for that mistake. 772. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I would be interested to see, and David is the math whiz among the posters, what the points would look like now with NASCAR's reset, combined with my points system of scoring in the races since." I have the aid of Microsoft Excel, but I appreciate the shout out. Here they are: 2012 Chase standings with NASCAR reset and cjs3872's points system 1. Brad Keselowski - 2434 2. Jimmie Johnson - 2427 3. Kasey Kahne - 2371 4. Clint Bowyer - 2362 5. Denny Hamlin - 2352 6. Matt Kenseth - 2334 7. Greg Biffle - 2313 8. Tony Stewart - 2307 9. Kevin Harvick - 2301 10. Jeff Gordon - 2298 (Assuming his penalty was the same) 11. Martin Truex, Jr. - 2281 12. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 2218 773. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like that points system and would be in favor of NASCAR adopting it because it would reward drivers more for finishing in the top five and ten than for any other position. And I say this knowing fully well that Brad would have a slimmer lead under this points system. 774. Talon64 posted: 11.14.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Over these last couple of days, I've gained some respect for 18fan and Talon64, who have always stood by their drivers (Kyle and Tony) through thick and thin and have to put up with all the shit from everybody else (myself included). So I guess now I have empathy towards them because now I know what it feels like to have my favorite drive get shit on by a lot of people." I think I might be masochistic, because I bring it on myself with the drivers I like the most. Keselowski (there's times I wish he'd just keep it to himself lol), Stewart, Harvick, Robby Gordon when he was relevant (but I hope his trophy truck series is a success!), and there's a part of me that really wants to like Kyle Busch but can never quite get there. Actually I find I generally like a lot more drivers than I dislike. I dislike Jimmie Johnson only because he wins too damn much, Carl Edwards because he comes off as a two-faced white-hat faker, and Kurt Busch for Carl's reasons and because he's the only current driver who I believe to be an asshole at heart and the only driver who I believe NASCAR would be better off not having in the sport at all. Good luck to FRR and RCR, they'll need it. 775. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @773 Paul, take a look at the standings in #584. 776. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Keselowski (there's times I wish he'd just keep it to himself lol), Stewart, Harvick, Robby Gordon when he was relevant (but I hope his trophy truck series is a success!), and there's a part of me that really wants to like Kyle Busch but can never quite get there." I became a fan of Brad's at about the same time a lot of us did, which is when he replaced my all-time favorite Truck Series driver Ted Musgrave at Memphis and dominated the race. I've always been a fan of Robby Gordon's as well, and I'm not sure why because he's so similar to Stewart and Harvick, and I don't care for either of them. Maybe it's because he never tries to be the good guy or the bad guy like those two and just acts naturally. That's something I can always respect in a driver, even if I can't stand their attitude. I tried liking Kyle as well, mostly because my dad always liked him (going as far as to request a Kyle Busch shirt for Christmas one year), but I just can't get over the attitude and unentitled ego that man has. And I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Kurt for some reason that makes it hard for me to criticize him (although I hold no punches now that he replaced my boy Regan Smith at FRR). I've always thought that he had an undying love for racing and competing against the best in the world, but it seems like with every passing year he puts more pressure on himself and as a result has an easy tendency to "boil over" or "meltdown" (perhaps I should call him "Crock Pot" from now on, lol). He may be a jerk, but because I started watching the same year he truly broke out (in '02), he's sort of "my jerk", if that makes any sense. 777. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "@773 Paul, take a look at the standings in #584." Ugh, Kyle Busch made the Chase? I hate it already :P 778. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, could you tell us how your points system differs from the current one? 779. cjs3872 posted: 11.14.2012 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, of course the penalty would be the same. I was only wondering what the points would look like if my weighted system were being used, instead of the one that encourages conservative driving. But here's somthing to mull over. There woyuld actually be an arithmatic chance that, using my system with the standings David posted from it, that if Jimmie Johnson won at Homestead, that he could take the title via tie-breaker, even if Brad Keselowski finished second. That's because if the driver who wins also lead the most laps, he would get 62 points, and the driver that finishes second and never leads gets 55 points. That's a difference of seven. What does David's standings based on my point system currently have? Keselowski leading Johnson by...seven. and since a win by Johnson would give him six wins to Keselowski's five, that would give him the title. Also, there's a supreme irony in what's facing Brad Keselowski in the final race, in terms of the championship, when you consider what another Penske driver, Will Power, faced just a couple of months ago at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana, CA. Power faced this same situation, if not an easier one, to wrap up the IndyCar championship, and he crashed in turn one racing too hard, losing the championship by just a couple of points to Ryan Hunter-Reay. Trust me, that exact situation has not been lost on anyone in the Penske Racing organization, and I don't think that has been lost on Jimmie Johnson and the #48 team, either, which is why they're going to put as much pressure on Penske's team as they can. Penske has to think that lightning can't possibly strike twice in the same year to his organization, can it? 780. Talon64 posted: 11.14.2012 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If something did happen to Keselowski that resulted in a worst-case scenario (worst finisher among non-S&P's, which could be as bad as 35th based on the 8 S&P's that they had at Phoenix), then Jimmie would only need to finish 15th or better to win the championship. Not nearly as tough a road as Hunter-Raey had in order to even score enough points to take advantage of Power's mistake at Fontana. But then again, wouldn't the worst-case scenario be an engine failure 10 laps in like Truex Jr. had at Phoenix which got him a dead-last finish? Then it'd be 23rd for Johnson to win the championship. The only two times Jimmie Johnson really needed a good run at Homestead in order to win the championship were in 2004 and 2010. He ended up 2nd both times, losing in 2004 (4th for Kurt Busch was good enough) but winning in 2010 (Hamlin ended up 12th, Harvick 3rd). In that case, 20th is what Keselowski would need in order to clinch the championship even if Johnson led the most laps (led 1 lap in 2010, none in 2004). 781. Talon64 posted: 11.14.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With a top 10 finish at Homestead, Brad Keselowski would not only handily clinch the championship, he'd be the 1st driver to have 18 top 10's in the last 20 races of a season since 1998. Yep, that 1998 season when Jeff Gordon had 10 wins, 19 top 5's, 20 top 10's and a 2.15 average finish in the last 20 races of the season. Right up there with the greatest stretches by a driver in Cup Series history. Brad Keselowski's numbers over the last 19 races aren't too shabby either; 3 wins, 9 top 5's, 17 top 10's and a 6.3 average finish. Tony Stewart had 19 top 10's in the last 22 races of 2005. 782. Baker posted: 11.14.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was never a Brad Keselowski fan until late last summer. I don't care what any of you have to say because we argued it many times back then, but Brad Keselowski was just as much an entitled immature punk as Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards back then. The shennanigans between him and Carl Edwards over those few seasons was making me think of him as such. Even more recent years in the Nationwide series made me dilike him. I think his horrible rookie season made him set back and think about things a lot because late last summer you could see a totally different person. It was just his results picking up the results were picking up because he was more focused on racing rather than settling scores and such. I don't care what anyone says Brad Keselowski has matured as a person and race car driver, a complete 180 from what he was back then. I slowly started becoming a fan and this year pushed into a huge fan and now his title run at Jimmie Johnson(even before the chase) has put him in Tony Stewart status for me(maybe slightly under). I don't think anyone will surpase Tony for me because I grew up watching Tony Stewart in USAC. He was my favorite as a little boy when he was on dirt and I just followed him all the way through. I don't have that with Brad Keselowski. I will say to this point as a fan I am way more proud of Brad Keselowski than Tony Stewart because Brad Keselowski chose to change and grow as a person and racer. Tony has very little and has left too many wins and championships on the table because of it. 783. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie also needed a good run at Homestead in 2005 when he was 52 points behind Tony Stewart going into Homestead and he crashed and finished 40th. 784. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone think Johnson's going to crush and humiliate Keselowski and send him into a typical horrible championship hangover next season? 785. Jim Davis posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was a retaliation gone bad, and I think Clint deserves part of the blame for passing Jeff on the inside after he was warned about him." I question this. Bowyer does not have any obligation to pass Gordon in such a fashion that makes retaliation easier and/or with fewer consequences. Is Bowyer really supposed to be thinking "Gordon's going to try and dump me. I'd better pass him on the outside so I won't move back up the track and collect anyone else when he spins me out"? 786. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ugh, Kyle Busch made the Chase? I hate it already :P" At the expense of Kevin Harvick, who didn't really deserve to make it, considering his invisibility all year (even his lone win had headline-stealing events, haha). Paul, my system is what I believe to be the solution to the competition (read: good, hard racing on-track) woes in NASCAR. It awards more points for the top 8 than the current system does, and does not reward mediocrity, as positions 16-26 all earn ten less points than the current system. The gap between first and second is 25 points. To put that in perspective, 25 points less than second-place is the amount given to the ninth place finisher. The system is as follows: 1. 84 (38 more than the current system) 2. 59 (+17) 3. 55 (+14) 4. 51 (+11) 5. 47 (+8) 6. 43 (+5) 7. 40 (+3) 8. 37 (+1) 9. 34 (-1) 10. 31 (-3) 11. 28 (-5) 12. 26 (-6) 13. 24 (-7) 14. 22 (-8) 15. 20 (-9) 16. 18 (-10) 17. 17 (-10) 18. 16 (-10) 19. 15 (-10) 20. 14 (-10) 21. 13 (-10) 22. 12 (-10) 23. 11 (-10) 24. 10 (-10) 25. 9 (-10) 26. 8 (-10) 27. 8 (-9) 28. 8 (-8) 29. 7 (-8) 30. 7 (-7) 31. 7 (-6) 32. 6 (-6) 33. 6 (-5) 34. 6 (-4) 35. 5 (-4) 36. 5 (-3) 37. 5 (-2) 38. 4 (-2) 39. 4 (-1) 40. 4 (0) 41. 3 (0) 42. 3 (+1) 43. 3 (+2) Bonus Points Lap Led: 2 Most Led: 2 Pole: 2 cjs3872 has posted a number of comments opposing awarding points for the pole, and I am well aware of the disadvantages of it, so there is no need to mention that part. I designed this system about two years ago, right around the time when there was rumors of a new points system being implemented, before I became a poster on Racing-Reference. I just recently discovered that my system could be compared directly with the currrent system (Coincidentally, it was one of your comments, Paul, that made me realize this). 787. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gonna check in for a moment as a Brad fan to other Brad fans. Is this week CRAWLING by for anyone else? 788. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I became a fan of Brad's at about the same time a lot of us did, which is when he replaced my all-time favorite Truck Series driver Ted Musgrave at Memphis and dominated the race." I started liking him when he won his first race at Talladega the way he did, refusing to be sent below the yellow line. 789. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In his previous two Homestead finishes since joining Penske Racing, Brad has finished 13th and 20th (with 1 bonus point). Finishing where he did in 2010 would clinch him the championship, while his finish in 2011 would clinch him the championship as long as Jimmie Johnson doesn't win the race, with bonus points being a non-factor. I think the fact that Jimmie has never won at Homestead should provide Brad with at least three points of breathing room (the difference between 1st place after 4 bonus points and 2nd place with most laps led). All Brad has to do is stay on the lead lap and do what he's done all year, which is not do anything stupid on the track (he also has to make perfect pit stop entries, something that hurt him at Texas). If he can run a quiet, flawless race, this championship is his. I would rather he run quietly and finish 15th than go go broke, wreck, and finish 23rd. At this point, the championship is all that matters. Obviously if Jimmie Johnson has troubles, then he should go for the win, but unless that happens I wouldn't even worry about it. 790. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gonna check in for a moment as a Brad fan to other Brad fans. Is this week CRAWLING by for anyone else?" Yes. But F1 is having the first U.S Grand Prix in 5 years this Sunday too, so i'm antsy for 2 different reasons. I'm really worried that "Unlimited-Time" is going to take it away from Brad and add to his ever growing legacy as the man who can't be beat. I'm talking about Johnson of course. 791. murb posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again, great discussion guys. It's great reading all these debates and stuff. My fandom of Brad began back in 2007 when he replaced Musgrave, just like everyone else. I was a fan of his through 2008, and the first little bit of 2009 as well when he was driving the 88 JRM car. But once he won that Cup race at Talladega, I just thought he turned cocky, so I stopped caring for him. I thought he was gonna go down the same path as guys like Denny Hamlin and Kevin Harvick. You know, guys who forgot their roots once they became big in the Cup series. And in 2010, it was even worse. You know how we talk about Logano as the ungrateful "Win on Saturday, Invisible on Sunday" guy? That's how I looked at Brad in 2010. I knew he had talent behind the wheel, but I just thought that he was gonna have one of those "Sidetracked by the Lower Levels of Nascar" type careers. But then, the race at Pocono in 2011 happened. Broken ankle and all, he outduels Kyle Busch to win what turned out to be one of the last 500 mile enduro races at Pocono. Over the next few weeks, with that same broken ankle, he gets a bunch of top fives, including another win at the classic Bristol Night Race. During this period of time, my respect for him as a driver grew a ton. But even then, I still wasn't sure about his personality. So one day in Fall 2011, I was looking around on Twitter just for the hell of it. I looked at most of the drivers, and was really bored because of their political correctness. Then, I decided to check out Brad's page. As I was reading, I had to ask myself, "Whoa, wait a minute. This guy is actually answering fans' questions? Without sugar coating his answers?" Then, I went back even further, and by doing some research, I figured out that Brad is probably one of the nicest drivers when it comes to interacting with the fans. Not only that, but to me, especially this year, it has seemed like he is slowly taking over as "the voice of the garage". He's become the most quotable driver by far (unless Tony goes on one of his psychotic rants, which still happens every once in a blue moon), and he says what is on his and the fans' mind. Also, he's stopped running so many lower level races this year, and he's set his sights on the ultimate prize, which is something that others (Harvick, Kyle, Carl up until this year) haven't done. I think these have been the moments where I was like, "Yeah, he's gonna be different then those guys". So yeah, I definitely haven't always liked him. But in the past couple years, I've seen him grow up in a way. I've never seen a driver grow up before. I've seen guys grow with their teams into dynasties (Jeff and Jimmie), and I've also seen guys grow down (Kurt Busch), but I've never actually witnessed a driver go from such a polarizing figure into such a mature person on and off the track before. That's why I've finally become a legitimate fan of Brad's in the past year and a half or so, and that's why I'm fully backing him to win his first Sprint Cup Championship this weekend. 792. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, that was the last 500 mile race at Pocono and I remember being really upset at the end of that race because Kyle lost yet another race he should've won. I hope Kyle will cut down his Nationwide schedule next year now that his team is established, but I also know he really wants to win in his own car. 793. Paul posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "At the expense of Kevin Harvick, who didn't really deserve to make it, considering his invisibility all year (even his lone win had headline-stealing events, haha)." Ah, good point. I guess in hind sight it doesn't really matter because either way, I don't think either of them were going to win the championship. I think one of the reasons why Kyle has been so flawless in the Chase is because he has something to prove and has no pressure. If he had made the Chase, I don't think he's 3rd in the points (according to your standings). Nice points system David. Wins are heavily weighted and 1st place is by far the most important finishing position, then there's a 4-point scale between 2nd and 6th, a 3-point scale between 6th and 11th, a 2-point scale between 11th and 16th, a 1-point scale between 16th and 26th, and from there several positions share points. I like that because it wouldn't encourage teams with wrecked cars to put them back on the track because not every position is weighted. Nice work. "Is Bowyer really supposed to be thinking "Gordon's going to try and dump me. I'd better pass him on the outside so I won't move back up the track and collect anyone else when he spins me out"?" Clearly he wasn't thinking that because he actually made the move late in the turn. I think he waited for Jeff's car to bobble and then dove underneath him, without thinking Jeff would retaliate that way. I don't think he was mad that Jeff retaliated (or at least he shouldn't have been), but I think it was the way he retaliated that upset him and his team. And rightfully so. But I brought that point up because I thought it was interesting that Kyle Petty brought that up on SPEED after the race. I don't think I've ever heard of the victim of a retaliation being criticized for putting himself in position to be wrecked. I don't know what goes through the driver's mind when they're being told to be careful passing a certain car, but since it came from Kyle Petty, a former driver with 30 years of experience in Cup, I figured he must know what he's talking about. "Gonna check in for a moment as a Brad fan to other Brad fans. Is this week CRAWLING by for anyone else?" I'm just counting down the days man. Yesterday it was five, today it's four, tomorrow's three. As soon as Friday comes around, we officially start championship weekend and things start to pick up. This is certainly an exciting weekend to be a NASCAR fan. I'll be happy no matter who wins the Truck title (I'm pulling for Buescher), I've accepted the fact that Sadler likely won't win it this year, and I'm excited to see a driver I've followed for the last five years be in great position to win his first Cup championship. Last year I was pulling for Stewart simply because I didn't want Carl to win because I was still upset over his actions from a year earlier; I didn't give a shit either way in 2010; I wanted Mark to win in '09, but he was pretty much done entering Homestead; and I was more bummed that Jeff went winless than I was about Jimmie winning the title in '08. I know you didn't feel the same way as I did in '07, but that was the last year I was truly pulling for a driver to win the championship for their sake. That was a disappointing day to say the least, but it feels good knowing Brad has a 20-point cushion this time around 794. murb posted: 11.14.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, you're right 18fan, I that was the last 500 miler at Pocono. For some reason, I had the 2011 Pocono races flipped, so I had Jeff Gordon as winning the final 500 miler there. I guess it's because I mixed up his win in the June race there in 2011 with his August win this year. But regardless, that was the race where Brad showed me that he was a throwback, of sorts. It reminded me of that gutsy win by Ricky Rudd at Martinsville in 1998, where he basically suffered from heat exhaustion throughout the whole race but still pulled out all the stops. 795. cjs3872 posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I don't like the idea of having such a big bonus for winning over second place for one big reason. It promotes cheating, and I'm against anything that promotes cheating. A six-point bump with that point system (five plus the automatic bonus point for leading) represents nearly 9% for winning over second place, so it's a big enough bump to be meaningful, but not so big that it promotes cheating. And the reason I oppose any bonus points for qualifying is because that would undo what NASCAR did 11 years ago by creating the one-engine rule, because teams would then build qualifying specials if it means getting that one extra point, and willingly go to the back for the start with that extra point in hand, if they have to. And 18fan, the reason Jimmie crashed in that race was because he had a slow leak in his tire, but was so far behind that he couldn't pit and go two laps behind. As it turned out, he was crashing from that tire failure just as teammate Jeff Gordon, who was leading that race at the time if I remember right, was in the process of lapping him. And with Brad Keselowski leading the points and nobody in the other car capable of running up front, that takes away a potential strategy of trying to use the #22 as a rabbit, and try to get it to lead the most laps, thus taking a point away from what Jimmie Johnson could get. Trust me, if the roles were reversed, and Jimmie had the 20-point lead, I can almost guarantee that Hendrick would send one of his other drivers to lead as much as they can to take a point away from Keselowski (or anyone else capable of catching Johnson), but Penske can't do that because he doesn't have a driver in the #22 car capable of doing that. In fact, in that 2005 race at Homestead, Gordon was trying to do just that, leading laps so that the Roush drivers in contention couldn't get the bonus for leading the most laps, and aid Johnson's cause. And after Johnson crashed, Gordon ceased to be a major factor in that race. 796. 18fan posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I remember now that he wrecked due to a tire problem. But he also wasn't running well at all, if I remember correctly. 797. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nice points system David. Wins are heavily weighted and 1st place is by far the most important finishing position, then there's a 4-point scale between 2nd and 6th, a 3-point scale between 6th and 11th, a 2-point scale between 11th and 16th, a 1-point scale between 16th and 26th, and from there several positions share points. I like that because it wouldn't encourage teams with wrecked cars to put them back on the track because not every position is weighted. Nice work." Thank you very much. I believe that is the first time anyone who actually knew a lot about NASCAR complimented my points system. I have 2004 calculated with my system, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to post the standings. 798. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's amazing that know one has mentioned that Bad Brad is the full season points leader by 8 over Johnson on top of his 20 point Chase lead. He can win the title with the most wins and the best season average finish to become the first to do so since Jeff Gordon in 2001. 799. David posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, I don't like the idea of having such a big bonus for winning over second place for one big reason. It promotes cheating, and I'm against anything that promotes cheating. A six-point bump with that point system (five plus the automatic bonus point for leading) represents nearly 9% for winning over second place, so it's a big enough bump to be meaningful, but not so big that it promotes cheating. And the reason I oppose any bonus points for qualifying is because that would undo what NASCAR did 11 years ago by creating the one-engine rule, because teams would then build qualifying specials if it means getting that one extra point, and willingly go to the back for the start with that extra point in hand, if they have to." Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree here. 800. JG24FanForever posted: 11.14.2012 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Know one"? Idiot. If Fernando Alonso wins the F1 world Championship and Brad K. wins the Cup, i'll feel "not so cheated" this season, after watching my A driver start off with the worst luck in the history of any Cup driver to start a season.Then he fires off a win and 6 Podiums in 7 races to break Big E's Modern Podium record,but since then his season has gone into "Gordon season ending fade mode", and after Phoenix,this season couldn't end any quicker for me. 801. JG24FanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson locked up his 8th Top 2 points finish in the last 10 seasons in this event. The last time this happened was when Dale finished Top 2 in the points 8 times in 10 seasons between 1986-1995. Jimmie has never had a season like Dale had in 1992 though. 802. cjs3872 posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, he wasn't running that well because he had a tire problem. Granted he was never in contention for the lead, but when you're riding for 10-15 laps on a soft tire, it's going to make you look worse than you actually are. And JG24FF, it's pretty obvious why Jeff Gordon ran off that string of finishes to get into the Chase, and that's becuase Hendrick Motorsports was puting all their emphasis behind getting Gordon in the Chase. And although that continued somewhat in the Chase, I regard that the same way I regard Gordon's mid-season surge in 2011, and that would be "fool's gold". Remember that Gordon struggled in the first third of that season, then came on like gangbusters, and a big reason for that was that the teams that were running up front began to test for the Chase, so they were not going to run up front that entire time, especially on the big tracks, so Gordon stepped right in and ran up front because he had to. But when the Chase started last year, he slid back to his true position, which was 10th-15th. And yet despite that string of six finishes of second and third in seven races, he could never get to the lead, leading only 22 laps in those seven races, which is a telling stat to me. 803. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, they're really going out of their way to plug this Kurt Busch documentary for all its worth. Among his media appearances will include live interviews tomorrow morning at 6:50 on Fox News, 8:15 on CNN, and 9:34 on Fox News once again (all eastern standard time). The documentary, "Kurt Busch: The Outlaw" (I'm still not crazy about the name) will air tomorrow night on SPEED at 8:00 ET. 804. JG24FanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And yet despite that string of six finishes of second and third in seven races, he could never get to the lead, leading only 22 laps in those seven races, which is a telling stat to me." Very slow(except Martinsville)cars. 805. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not so sure about that anymore JG24. I think now that Jeff has reached his 40s, has a family, and is enjoying watching his two kids grow up, I think Jeff is making sure not to take any unnecessary risks on the fast race tracks like Michigan and Charlotte because I think he's become a lot smarter about racing, but in a bad way. Before he wouldn't take unnecessary risks because he wanted to keep his car in position to win at the very end, but now it seems like he isn't taking unnecessary risks because he wants to live for another day. I think that while Dale's death affected him on the race track, along with everyone else in that race, now that he's raced for over 35 years and has a nice retirement life set up for himself and his family, he doesn't want to risk losing that. Whether it's consciously or sub-consciously, I think Jeff is holding himself back on the fast tracks more than anything. Dale had a great retirement life set up for himself, and lost it all in one fateful crash, and I think Jeff has taken that into account and doesn't want the same thing to happen to him either. 806. murb posted: 11.15.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm still not crazy about the name" I'm telling you, all those ones we came up with are way better. Kurt Busch: The Downward Spiral Kurt Busch: Me (I think this was yours, Paul) Kurt Busch Flies Over The Cuckoo Nest Kurt Busch: The Complete Opposite of an Outlaw Kurt Busch: Fall From Grace Kurt Busch: The Journeyman Kurt Busch's Greatest Hits and Misses Kurt Busch: I Don't Wanna Grow Up (In tribute to the classic Tom Waits song) 807. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 2:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since we've kind of gotten on the subject of Brad Keselowski, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts on Brad and how the journey from my standpoint has been watching him crawl up the racing ladder, going from barely making Truck races in his family's equipment to being one race away from winning a Sprint Cup championship over one of the greatest drivers of all-time. I first heard of Brad back in 2007 when I was 14 years old. Though I had been watching and following the sport for five years up to that point, I was not the "hardcore fan" I am today (meaning I wasn't searching for racing news, watching every race from each series, or on message boards like this) and wasn't following the Busch or Truck Series like I was Cup, but I remember hearing before a Cup race about one Brad Keselowski filling in for the parked Ted Musgrave in a Truck race at Memphis, and dominating the race before unfortunately being spun out of the lead by Travis Kvapil (who gave a very classy and regretful interview afterwards). I remember thinking to myself, "Brad Keselowski? The same Brad Keselowski who had been finishing at the back of the pack in every Busch Series race that season (driving for Keith Coleman)? Wow!" I was shocked. It hadn't occurred to me that maybe some of these drivers in bad equipment might actually be really good drivers and they just need a chance to prove themselves in great equipment. From then on, I made sure to remember his name, not knowing just how often I would be hearing his name years down the road. Thankfully, Brad's performance in that Truck race caught the eye of one of the sport's biggest names who just so happened to run an upstart Busch team: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. While JR Motorsports during its pre-HMS years was a couple steps up from Keith Coleman's team, it wasn't at the same level as Roush, RCR, and even HMS' Busch teams. That being said, Brad was far and away the best driver to come along JR Motorsports in its young history as he racked off top ten finishes at places like Bristol and Dover in his first few races with the team. It was clear that JR Motorsports made the right decision to hire Brad in '07, and decided to keep him around for another two seasons. In '08, HMS folded up their now-Nationwide team in favor of funding JR Motorsports after hiring Junior for their Cup team, which meant that Brad was sitting in one of the best cars in the whole series on opening day 2008, one year after DNQing for Daytona in '07. I didn't usually watch the Nationwide Series back then, but one night I flipped on ESPN and on it was the Nationwide race from Charlotte (perhaps you guys know which race I'm talking about). Among the leaders for most of the race were three Cup drivers in Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, and Junior; and then there was Brad, the one Nationwide driver standing tall against these Cup drivers. Then as a late caution flew, Denny decided he had had enough of Brad and tried taking him out under caution (to which Rusty Wallace tried to cover up by saying he was "scrubbing off his tires"). Following the race, they interviewed both drivers and to this day I remember what was said. In Brad's interview, he said some things that we have all grown accustomed to hearing from Brad, saying things like "I raced him hard. He doesn't like it when I race him hard, and that's what I do." And on the other end of that, an obviously frustrated Denny said "I think it's just him racing in the Nationwide Series not having any Cup experience." And I remember saying out loud "Isn't that what the Nationwide Series is for?! If you don't want to race against these Nationwide drivers, stick to Cup. Idiot!" Just like that, my Denny fandom ended. I have a Denny Hamlin t-shirt that I actually wore in my school picture that year, and I don't think I've worn it since that race. I no longer rooted for Denny, and after hearing Brad's interview, I was a Brad fan. Then two weeks later Brad goes on to win his first career race at Nashville. It felt really cool seeing a driver who I had barely even heard of a year earlier become a Nationwide winner just like that, and I was proud of his accomplishments. After seeing him win that race, I thought to myself, "Yes! Finally we have a Nationwide driver who might actually be able to win his own championship against these Buschwackers." Now keep in mind, at the time I had no plans on seeing him make it to Cup. It sounds silly in retrospect, but I looked at Brad as a driver who could be a yearly Nationwide title contender and be the guy who would take down these "evil" Cup drivers once and for all, and not once thinking that this success might propel him up to Cup. The next season was a HUGE year for Brad fans as Brad shocked the racing world by not only winning a Cup race for the small Phoenix Racing team on a part-time schedule, but also sent the previous season's runner-up into the air and into the catchfence. Plus, he got sponsorship from GoDaddy in the Nationwide Series and that and his experience helped him go from a weekly top ten contender into a weekly top five contender. Now as some of you may already know, I was becoming less and less interested in NASCAR in '09 despite Brad's accomplishments, and by 2010 I had lost all interest as I only watched the first two races and nothing else for the remainder of the season. Because of that, I missed out on all the bullshit between he and Denny, Kyle, and Carl that I'm sure some of you remember quite fondly, but I'm kind of glad I wasn't watching in 2010 because I would have been just miserable watching my all-time favorite driver go winless for the 2nd time in 3 years, my new favorite have a terrible season, and three of my least favorites all battling for the championship. YIKES! So needless to say, after watching Brad drive for HMS' Nationwide team for two years and then taking a year off from watching, I was surprised to see Brad in Kurt Busch's former Miller lite car after such a bad 2010 season. He looked like a bust after the first 1/3 of 2011, but then he won Kansas on fuel mileage and then went on a tear in the summer, including winning two races after breaking his ankle. How he went from 28th in the points after nine races to 5th place (and as high as 3rd) in just his 2nd full Cup season is pretty remarkable, with or without the Chase. And now, one year later, all that good luck that he had for the final half of 2011 has been with him for the entire season. Not only has he won five races, some of which on fuel mileage, but he has seemingly stolen Jimmie Johnson's horseshoe and stuck it up his own ass this season as he has only had four finishes worse than 18th all season with one DNF. Not to mention the fact that he came oh-so-close to having his Chase hopes taken away as he barely made it through the big wreck at Talladega and came home with a 7th place finish. Had he been taken out in that wreck like Jimmie Johnson was, there's a good chance that Jimmie doesn't choke at Phoenix and seemingly hand Brad the title the way he did because he wouldn't feel the same amount of pressure. It's pretty crazy seeing a driver like Brad go from being an unknown backmarker driver on his family's Truck team and Keith Coleman's Busch team, to getting the chance of a lifetime in place of Ted Musgrave at Memphis, to catching the eye of Dale Earnhardt, Jr., to winning the Cup race at Talladega, to having an agonizingly bad 2010 Cup season, to getting hot in the second half of 2011 and keeping that fire going throughout the 2012 season, to being just three days away with a 20-point cushion of winning his first Cup title. I think I speak for all Brad fans when I say that although this journey has been bumpy and downright ugly at times (especially for those of you who were watching NASCAR in 2010), it's been totally worth it and it'll all pay off in just three days at Homestead. Of course, anything can happen at Homestead. But given how strong this season has been for Brad, both in the Chase and the regular season, I don't think there's any stopping him from winning this championship. A great man once said "To be the man you have to beat the man," and this Sunday, we'll find out if Brad truly is "The Man." 808. joey2448 posted: 11.15.2012 - 5:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But F1 is having the first U.S Grand Prix in 5 years this Sunday too, so i'm antsy for 2 different reasons." JG24FanForever Same here! The US Grand Prix at the new Circuit of the Americas is supposed to start like, an hour before the Cup race at Homestead, so I'll be watching that instead of ESPN's pre-race show (which I never watch anyway). Should be a good Sunday! "Gonna check in for a moment as a Brad fan to other Brad fans. Is this week CRAWLING by for anyone else?" DaleSrFanForever Again, same here... 809. 10andJoe posted: 11.15.2012 - 6:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Geez, busy discussion here. I forgot to include Darrell Wallace Jr. on my list, which is a shame. He's certainly an A-lister. Brett Moffitt is affiliated with MWR - he's actually their Cup test driver, in fact. Crew chief or not, Truex's team has been the "20" team on his off weekends - that's been explicitly stated by the team way back when the "number 20 team" started running a partial schedule.. Danicamania has decided not to run next year's Indy 500. 810. Smiff_2 posted: 11.15.2012 - 6:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES, DSFF, this wek has been DRAGGING somethin' fierce. All year, it's seems like I'm still thinking about last week's race when all of a sudden, it's Sunday again and time for the next one. But this week? FUGGEDABOUTIT And I just want to echo the sentiments of all the other Brad fans....it's been an absolute pleasure to watch him grow and evolve over the past few years. To go from barely making races with his family's small grassroots operation, to now be sitting on the cusp of his first title, having all-but-defeated big, bad "Five Time"......how f***ing sweet is THAT!? I'm just wishing and hoping and praying that nothing stupid and out of his control ruins this for Brad (and us dedicated members of the "Brad Brigade"). I'll just say this: If Brad doesn't win the title this Sunday, *NO* amount of sex from my girlfriend will take the sting off, that's for sure....lol 811. Smiff_2 posted: 11.15.2012 - 6:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and while I'm here, I just have to say....how frigging GREAT was Keselowski's rant in the Media Center last week? And yet some people wonder why we're fans of this guy? Bitch, please! How could you *NOT* want that guy as our champion? 812. David posted: 11.15.2012 - 10:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I became a fan of Brad's at about the same time a lot of us did, which is when he replaced my all-time favorite Truck Series driver Ted Musgrave at Memphis and dominated the race." And why was Musgrave suspended? For a scuffle with another driver the previous week at Milwaukee. Oh the irony... 813. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't believe its only Thursday. I feel like Pheonix was 3 weeks ago. 814. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what's great about this board? We watched the Phoenix race, we discussed and analyzed different aspects of the Phoenix race, and now we're focused solely on Homestead. Maybe it's because we don't buy into the crap that the media tries to sell us, maybe it's because we've sort of "agreed to disagree" about the Phoenix bullshit. But I think we've sort of adopted a phrase that Brad Keselowski said at Homestead '09 when he said "I don't hold any grudges. I'm ready to move on--Hell, I've already moved on." Amen to that. Phoenix is in the past, now the only thing that matters is Homestead and the race for the championship. I can tell you one thing: In three days we will have forgotten all about Phoenix regardless of the outcome of this championship. There will be pandemonium on this board in three days, and I'm hoping it's the good kind of pandemonium. 815. Baker posted: 11.15.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson is way too confident. He knows he is going to win it. I wouldn't be surprised if Keselowski gas a 'mechanical' failure or a 'broken' shock. I will also bet money every time the race spreads out and Keselowski finds a safe spot in the top 10 to just cruise NASCAR will throw a debris caution. 816. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha! Finally watching that HMS doc on SPEED. Dale to Jeff: "You talk like a little girl" Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Also Schrader has totally stolen the show. Nobody tells a good story like Schrader. 817. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha I'm actually watching it again today. Is it just me or do Dale and Jeff come off like brothers in that clip? Dale comes off like the much older, experienced brother and doesn't shy away from poking fun at Jeff; and Jeff comes off like the younger brother seeking acceptance from his older bro. Plus Dale put his arm around him at the same time, to that was pretty cool to see. Schrader has to be the funniest NASCAR driver of all-time. The stories that he told about taking Dale Jr. to a night club and hoping that his flip at Talladega '95 wouldn't scar Jeff were just hilarious! And what other driver could have his arms around two women after they get doused with Gatorade and shout "Wet t-shirt contest!"? That's awesome! 818. 18fan posted: 11.15.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If could choose one guy to sit down with and just listen to him tell stories, it would be Kenny Schrader. 819. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty cool seeing the guys look at June and starting with "you're Dad and I". Also cool seeing the guys give Bodine hell and Geoff being a good sport about it. Love Darrell saying his first thought in winning his long awaited Daytona 500 was "I won it before Dale". Love the story about Schrader getting Junior wasted and Big E being pissed about it, wrecking Kenny a few times for it. Characters, love it. We also got a super rare glimpse of the real Jimmie Johnson, throwing a party for one of his early wins that culminated with Tide being poured in the pool and June busting his head open open diving in the shallow end. Why Jimmie? Why won't you let the public see that a lot more often? We need to have a racing reference reunion one day a few years from now. Remember that time Jeff intentionally wrecked Clint and we all got super pissed at each other? Then we'll luagh about it. 820. cjs3872 posted: 11.15.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, just imagine the stories that can be told with Ken Schrader, Darrell Waltrip, and Geoff Bodine in the same room together. What aired on SPEED has to be a condensed version, because how can the history of Hendrick Motorsports be told without even a mention of the biggest victory in their history, Geoff Bodine's 1986 Daytona 500 win. Certainly their first win in 1984 showed they could be competitive, but Bodine's win in the 1986 Daytona 500 showed that Hendrick Motorsports could get it done on the big stage. And remember that followed the only winless season in the history of HMS, 1985. And there were probably comparisons between Hendrick and Junior Johnson mentioned that didn't make the air either, since the drivers of Junior's #11 car from 1981-'91 were on there, Waltrip, Bodine, and Terry Labonte. In fact, there were no fewer than six drivers of the Budweiser-sponsored car on there, so there could have been great stories about the Budweiser sponsorship. In fact, they should make a series on the history of Hendrick's drivers, and bring all the living ones back. Just imagine guys like Labonte, Waltrip, Bodine, Ricky Rudd, Schrader, Wally Dallenbach, Jr., and Ricky Craven, as well as the current drivers. For instance, we may finally hear Terry Labonte's take on the 1987 All-Star Race, because he had the best seat for all the shenanigans that took place, and was nearly part of that himself when Dale Earnhardt tried to run him off the track as he had done with Bill Elliott. You could have the great stories of the Budweiser sponsorship, because so many drivers at Hendrick have been sponsored by Budweiser over the years, from Bodine, Labonte (twice), Waltrip, Schrader, Dale, Jr., Kasey Kahne, Dallenbach, and Craven, to the biggest victories in team history, which are too many to count, but include the historic Daytona 500s Hendrick has won over the years, including being the only team to have the same pair of teammates both start and finish 1-2 (Schrader and Waltrip in 1989), as well as the 1-2-3 finish in 1997. You could have about 15 hour-long shows and not tell everything. It could be a mini-version of the legends gathering they had at Charlotte about 15 years ago. 821. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We need to have a racing reference reunion one day a few years from now. Remember that time Jeff intentionally wrecked Clint and we all got super pissed at each other? Then we'll laugh about it." Hahaha. And as an homage to the documentary "Hendrick 200", we could call our reunion "Phoenix 800" after the track and number of comments made. Brad appeared on NASCAR Now today and said that the main reason why he keeps a phone in his car is because he has had crashes in the past that required him to be stretchered out of his car, and since he didn't have a phone on him, his family would have to wait for a media report on his condition to find out if he was okay. So he carries a phone in his car just in case he gets hurt so he can contact his family about his health ASAP. What a cool and selfless act that is. The fact that he cares enough to let those closest to him know he's okay to put a phone in his car just in case something happens speaks volumes for his character. I hate to keep saying it, but this guy just proves to me again and again what a class act he is off the track and I look forward to seeing him go out and show the world what he can do in three days. 822. Talon64 posted: 11.15.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gonna check in for a moment as a Brad fan to other Brad fans. Is this week CRAWLING by for anyone else?" OH GOD YES It's bizzare, but I'm more nervous with Keselowski going into Homestead with a big lead than I think I would've been if he and Jimmie were neck-and-neck. Maybe it's because I felt like he would've been better off having to go for broke at Homestead in order to win, rather than just need to lock it up with a conservative drive and a good finish. Or that I would've felt a LITTLE better about Jimmie winning the championship if it were still a close fight and Jimmie beat Brad straight-up, rather than him winning because Keselowski has bad luck in the last race. Even though it'd just even up their bad luck over these last two races, but it'd still sting like a bitch if it happened. I can't wait until tomorrow so F1, NASCAR practices and the Truck race can take my mind off of it. btw I have little doubt that Johnson's probably going to win the pole for the race. In arguably his two best seasons, 2007 and 2009, he won the pole at Homestead and I'd have to say 2012 ranks up there with them for him. But a top 10 start would be fantastic for Keselowski, regardless of what Johnson does. 823. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs and I have mentioned this before, but if Brad fails to win the pole at Homestead, he will fail to qualify for the Daytona Shootout next February. If he doesn't win the pole at Homestead and goes on to win the championship, it will mark just the fifth time in the Daytona Shootout's 35-year history that the defending Sprint Cup champion misses the race. The previous drivers to do so were Dale Earnhardt in '81 and '92, Bobby Allison in '84, and Matt Kenseth in '04. 824. 44amdKpe posted: 11.15.2012 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Jimmie Johnson is way too confident. He knows he is going to win it. Oddly, reports I've seen have basically described Johnson as throwing in the towel. 825. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.15.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And we are reminded again of the dangers of motorsport with the tragic loss of Luis Carreira today during qualifying for the motorcycle race at the Macau Grand Prix... 826. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.15.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny, I too Talon wish Brad were neck and neck in a way. This is better, but I think I would like the nerves better if it were close. Either way, I just want the race to get here. I am either gonna be absolutely elated or absolutely devasted. But I will be equally proud no matter what. Nobody has gone this far head to head against JJ without either blinking or throwing it in since Smoke in '05. The future is bright either way. 827. Baker posted: 11.15.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe I'm just paranoid then but that convo on NASCAR Now he seemed like he Knew it was his race and his championship. 828. The Final Gear posted: 11.15.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll be the first to throw out a bold prediction. Furniture Row makes the chase if Kurt Busch is their driver for the full year. 829. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well when you're the Emotionless Juggernaut, you never show emotions. Since fear is an emotion, Jimmie can't show fear on camera. It doesn't mean he's not fearful, it just means that he literally shows no fear. 830. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Final Gear, that's actually not such an unlikely situation to happen. RCR will be heavily behind Kurt Busch driving for FRR next year, so he'll basically be in the 4th RCR car. Kurt certainly has the talent to make the Chase, and if RCR manages to improve next season, that's not such a bad prediction to make. Bold yes, but not out of the realm of possibility. Just finished watching my 4th NASCAR documentary today with the "Kurt Busch: Outlaw" feature on SPEED (I also watched two SportsCentury pieces on ESPN Classic this morning about Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart, plus "Hendrick 200"). Really good feature done about Kurt. I think it really gives you the perspective that you can be the "good guy" (or at least stay out of the headlines) for 10 straight weeks and no one says anything in the media. But once you "put on the black hat", you are viewed as the bad guy, or "The Outlaw", if you will. It's interesting to think that maybe if the media focused more on covering the racing and less on trying to be the "NASCAR Paparazzi", maybe we view Kurt Busch differently than he's been portrayed as being. 831. murb posted: 11.15.2012 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the Kurt Busch show just ended, so I'd like to give my opinion on it. I thought it was well done, but for the most part, it hasn't changed my opinion of Kurt. Throughout the whole show, every time he described one of his incidents, it sounded like he was completely feeling sorry for himself. For probably a good 90% of those incidents, he has no one to blame but himself. On the contrary, at least he acknowledges that he has a problem. And as much as I don't care for Kurt, I did find the scene where he was talking about his work with the Armed Forces pretty cool. I think that was the first time I've ever seen him show compassion towards other people, so I applaud him for that. But overall, my opinion of him hasn't really changed for the most part. The biggest thing about the show that struck me was when Kurt talked about some of the behind the scenes stuff that happened when he was at Phoenix Racing. According to Kurt, he brought multiple sponsors in to James Finch, but Finch shot them down because "they weren't big enough". If this is true, then ARE YOU f**kING KIDDING ME, FINCH? SERIOUSLY? YOU'D RATHER RUN YOUR CAR BLANK THAN HAVE A ONE OR TWO RACE SPONSORSHIP PACKAGE? YOU SIR ARE AN IDIOT, AND THIS EXPLAINS EXACTLY WHY YOU HAVE NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING AS AN OWNER OTHER THAN A FEW WINS AND THE HONOR OF BEING RICK HENDRICK'S PUPPET SATELLITE TEAM. WHAT A DISGRACE. 832. murb posted: 11.15.2012 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you make really good points about how the media blows things out of proportion. I agree. But like I said in post 831, my opinion of Kurt hasn't really changed. I've never liked him all that much, and now after watching that, I still don't really like him all that much. When I was 5 years old watching him in the Truck Series in 2000, I could see that he was cocky. I thought once he became a champion maybe he would mellow out, but he's gone in the completely opposite direction and has gotten crazier. Of course, his numerous run-ins over the years haven't helped him in that respect. The ones that have particularly upset me were the ones where he has completely shown disregard for safety. The most famous one is in 2007 at Dover where he and Stewart were feuding throughout the race, and then Kurt drove right up to Tony on pit road and almost hit one of the 20 crew guys. Then there was this year at Darlington where he ran into Newman on pit road and instigated a huge fight. And most recently, there was Talladega where he drove off without a helmet and with the safety team's safety gear on top of his car. There's probably more that I'm forgetting. And let me just clarify, I understand that these were all heat of the moment things, and that Kurt is an ultimate competitor at heart. I can respect that. But still, you have to take the people around you into consideration when you are involved in such a dangerous sport. Clearly he has the talent behind the wheel, but it's just really scary to watch a guy like that knowing that he could completely lose it at any moment. And in this sport, losing it at any moment could be pretty severe, to say the least. But like I said, I'm glad that he realizes he has a problem. And like you said Paul, the media really does seem to sway things. Personally, even though I've never liked him, I really want to see him work out his problems. It's never fun to watch somebody essentially self destructing before your eyes. 833. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Point well made, murb. I've said it before that I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Kurt that makes it hard for me to root against me, mostly because I love his passion for racing. I've taken some shots at him lately because I didn't like the fact that he was replacing Regan Smith before the season was over (I was more upset at FRR, but I was taking shots at Kurt at his expense for being the driver they chose to replace Regan with). Next year when he joins RCR--er FRR, I think he'll be in contention for the win at restrictor plate tracks, road courses, and smaller tracks like Phoenix (RCR was really good there this year) and Bristol. If he manages to win one of those races and stays in the top 20 in points, he's got a shot at making the Chase. We've all heard about Kevin Harvick moving to SHR in 2014, but it's been announced that both Budweiser and Jimmy John's will be leaving with him after next season. You know that this means? Paul Menard will be at RCR for even longer than expected because they may need to have to change their gameplan in terms of their driver lineup for the next few years and hire quality drivers based on sponsorship, more so than skill. They may have to keep Jeff Burton longer than they want to (unless they can get Caterpillar to sponsor Kurt), and Austin Dillon should have sponsorship secured by the time he moves to Cup. I don't expect them to remain a 4-car team in 2014. I don't know whether Kurt or Burton will be the one to go, but I can't imagine both of them staying two years from now. Austin and Paul should be sponsored, and I'd imagine Caterpillar would be willing to stick by Jeff Burton. It's just a matter of whether they can get sponsorship for Kurt, which I think will be more difficult now that Budweiser and Jimmy John's are leaving. 834. Paul posted: 11.15.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I found myself watching Beyond 200 (I kept calling it Hendrick 200 for some reason) for the third time in the last four days again today. There are four things that never get old from this documentary: 1. Geoff Bodine being the butt of the jokes at the beginning (and being a good sport about it). 2. That clip with "Wonder Boy" and Dale. 3. The image of Schrader being upside down and praying that his wreck wouldn't scar Jeff. 4. Schrader asking Dale if he could take Junior back to Topeka again, Dale saying no, and Schrader asking "What about Kelley?" Pure gold. 835. 44andJoe posted: 11.15.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #824 - man, I really typo'd my name up there, didn't I? Anyway, regarding Phoenix Racing, that's pretty much describes them in a nutshell. Remember how many drivers they've canned... Wasn't the last actual sponsor they had, aside from Miccosukee Gaming, the old Lance Snacks car for Jeff Purvis? 836. murb posted: 11.15.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wasn't the last actual sponsor they had, aside from Miccosukee Gaming, the old Lance Snacks car for Jeff Purvis?" Well, they had the Yellow Freight sponsorship for a while. But yeah, they really haven't had many full time sponsors. I think it's this thing where Finch thinks his team is way better than it is. So he feels like he should have a mega corporate sponsor or something. 837. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2012 - 1:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I watched the Kurt Busch show too, and it was well done. When I was a new NASCAR fan, around 2002-2003, I considered Kurt my second-favorite driver, behind Jeff Gordon. His hard-charging style is what had me. But his outbursts, along with him changing teams throughout the years, kind of turned me off from him. But I get his emotions, and nowadays I find myself cheering him on again, and he does have two top-ten finishes in a row. Paul, I have the exact same thoughts on the Hendrick 200 show. Watching those guys poke fun at each other is hilarious. 838. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did the Hendrick 200 show have any interviews with Epic Swag? 839. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just watched the Kurt doc after DVRing it while at work last night. I guess my first thought is just how far ahead of the rest of the motorsports media world SPEED is. Personally, although it was well done, I feel it was kinda weak by the SPEED standard. But has BSPN done this documentary, I would have thought "Damn, best BSPN ANYTHING on NASCAR they have done yet with the exception of the Tim Richmond doc which was outstanding". Obviously trying to squeeze all of Kurt's ups and downs into an hour (with commercial breaks) is a tall order from the get go. So I feel they did a good job of choosing which incidents to include. Like many of you have said, my opinion hasn't changed. He is a hell of a racer and someebody who wants to be a good person, but in the heat of battle is simply unable to contain his actions and mouth. Of course in the end we also got to see just how out of touch with racing reality Richard Childress is. I swear, everytime he talks or makes a move, I think "RCR won 6 championships how?". Of course you guys all know my opinion on that. 840. Spen posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I sure missed a lot. 841. Scott B posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The RCR organization does seem to be sliding into irrelevance on the track. Harvick is reportedly taking sponsors with him to SHR, and with Hendrick being the dominant GM engine program, I wonder what's going to be left by the time Ty and Austin get to Cup. 842. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Of course in the end we also got to see just how out of touch with racing reality Richard Childress is." I love how at the end he says how mature Kurt has become over the years. Seriously Richard??? If anything, he's acted more immature over the past 3 years than he did at the beginning of his career. Whatever, I guess it's too hard to just say "I think he's one of the most talented drivers in the sport." Remember on post 833 when I mentioned how RCR will be signing drivers by putting sponsorship first before talent? RCR's vice president of competition Mike Dillon has been in talks with Danica Patrick to drive their #33 Nationwide car for 10 races next season. The reason for this is because Brendan Gaughan, who has been in 10 races (including Homestead) for RCR in the #33, will likely be moving over to the #2 that Elliott Sadler drove this season, and so RCR needs someone with sponsorship for those 10 races. It's being said that Danica is likely to leave JR Motorsports because her and Junior, who were going to split-time in a 3rd car, wanted some of the same races on their schedule and couldn't agree on who ran which race. This is bad for JRM because their 2nd car for Cole Whitt may not be able to run the full schedule, so now Junior may have to scrap the 3rd part-time car and split the schedule with Cole. With Danica leaving JRM, they may have lost some races on next year's schedule. Is it fair to use the "team obliterator" moniker to describe Danica in this situation? 843. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 1:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. Eldora AND Canadian Tire Motorsports Park are being added to the Truck schedule next year. In addition to Mid-Ohio's inclusion on the Nationwide slate, this might be the most new tracks ever added to the schedule in one year across all three series. 844. Eric posted: 11.16.2012 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I did watch the Kurt Busch Documentary. I thought it was done very good considering the subject they picked for trying to put in 1 hour with. I don't think it is one the same level as some of their other documentaries like others said. I didn't change me mind about Kurt either. Kurt always to me is a very talented driver, but he can't control his mouth or actions in the heat of the moment. I already have Kurt as a Hall of Fame driver with him having 24 wins and one Championship despite the fact it will take him a very long to get in once he retires. I know if the chase didn't exist Kurt wouldn't have his championship. What the documentary revealed to me was Richard Childress is even more out of touch than I thought and James Finch causes his own problems with sponsors. I know James fires many drivers in the past, but I really don't know much about how he handles sponsors before this documentary. Not wanting a one or two race package for sponsorship because it isn't a big sponsor sound stupid. 845. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Wes Townley will take over Red Horse's #7 Truck next season as Parker Kligerman moves up to Nationwide with an unknown team. 846. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was thinking the same thing Paul. Matured? Ha. 847. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "John Wes Townley will take over Red Horse's #7 Truck next season as Parker Kligerman moves up to Nationwide with an unknown team." Wrong John, Red Horse. 848. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, I don't like the idea of having such a big bonus for winning over second place for one big reason. It promotes cheating, and I'm against anything that promotes cheating. A six-point bump with that point system (five plus the automatic bonus point for leading) represents nearly 9% for winning over second place, so it's a big enough bump to be meaningful, but not so big that it promotes cheating." Well, then tell the technical inspectors to be on their toes, then. There's going to be a lot of violations. It's not like cheating won't happen anyway. 849. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry to double post, but to add to my previous comment, the advantage of having my system is that points penalties are even more damaging. For example, a 25-point penalty under the current system equals about 45 points under my system, and only the top 5 positions have base points that are over 45 points, while 19 positions under the current system have base points equal to or over 25 points. 850. cjs3872 posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed, David, but my point was that such a big bonus is going to promote cheating. You're right, cheating has been a part of NASCAR right from the very beginning in 1949. But for every time an infraction is found, I'd say about 10-15 are missed, at the very least. And when I say cheating, I mean intentional stuff, and do not include things like having the car too low through inspection, because that can be a result of an honest mistake, or even something happening during the course of the event itself. Stuff like that is always going to happen, because the crew chiefs and mechanics are always going to push the limits. But I'm against anything that is actually going to promote cheating. Honest mistakes happen, and will continue to happen, but blatant cheating needs to be stopped, not promoted. Such examples would include what the Elliotts did with their engines in the mid-80s, with the pressurization of the air/fuel flow into the carburetor. That may be the most blatant cheating in the history of the sport, because of what they gained by doing it, but there are too many other examples of blatant cheating to mention. 851. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you have to cheat to win, then you aren't that good of an engineer and don't belong. 852. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 2:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes, John Wrecks Weekly will be in the Eldora Truck race? Poor Tony, he's gonna have to rebuild the whole place. 853. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you think that's bad, just wait for the new road course that'll be on the Truck schedule next year. JWT has never driven on a road course in NASCAR, and seeing how he drives on ovals, that should be be fun to watch. We could take bets on how long he goes before spinning out. Speaking of spinning out, there's been a number of cars either spinning out or getting sideways in Formula One practice. 854. murb posted: 11.16.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is it fair to use the "team obliterator" moniker to describe Danica in this situation?" Yes. I read about the John Wes to Red Horse thing yesterday. I know that he's improved a ton this year, but really? There aren't any other drivers you would rather have? I know that JWT probably has sponsorship for you, but there's still plenty of other guys who are more deserving of that 7 truck. Like David Mayhew, Ryan Sieg, and Arca champion Chris Buescher, just to name a few. Hell, if they would have convinced Kligerman to come back for a year, they probably could have won a championship, given how he has run since he got in the truck. As for the "Childress is in love with Kurt" thing, I don't understand why he likes/wants him so much. The point has been made on here in the past that maybe Childress wants to hire Kurt to be Harvick's wingman of sorts. But Harvick is leaving after next year, so that idea seems to be out the window. So why does he still want him even though Harvick is leaving? To mentor Austin and Ty? Richard can't possibly be that stupid (or can he?) Because he will be bringing in sponsorship? Highly unlikely. I think it's just the fact that Richard sees that fire inside of Kurt, and of course he has always liked drivers like that. If you were to look at the all time list of RCR drivers, you would find a TON of fiery personalities (Dale Earnhardt, Kevin Harvick, Robby Gordon, Mike Skinner, Johnny Sauter, Jeff Green, etc). Well, be careful what you wish for, RCR. You guys essentially have him now, as he'll be with Furniture Row in what will essentially be RCR built and designed cars. If those cars are not up to pace (like they weren't this year), then you'd better not get pissed when Kurt calls you out on the radio, because it is bound to happen. 855. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you have to cheat to win, then you aren't that good of an engineer and don't belong." Very true. An example of my penalties in effect would be this past weekend at Phoenix. Jeff Gordon finished 30th, which is worth 7 points under my system. When the penalty came down, that dropped his race total 45 points to -38, which was 41 less points than the last place finisher, Martin Truex, Jr., received. Another good example is at the August Michigan race. Paul Menard's team tried to fool NASCAR inspection gauges by modifying the frame rails, which netted them a 45-point penalty under my system. Menard finished ninth while leading a lap, which is worth 36 points. Menard had a race points total of -9, penalty adjusted. 856. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yikes, John Wrecks Weekly will be in the Eldora Truck race? Poor Tony, he's gonna have to rebuild the whole place." No, he'll probably be fired by then. Oh wait, he has the family sponsorship. "Wrong John, Red Horse." By the way, I was referring to John King in that post. 857. Talon64 posted: 11.16.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Remember on post 833 when I mentioned how RCR will be signing drivers by putting sponsorship first before talent? RCR's vice president of competition Mike Dillon has been in talks with Danica Patrick to drive their #33 Nationwide car for 10 races next season. The reason for this is because Brendan Gaughan, who has been in 10 races (including Homestead) for RCR in the #33, will likely be moving over to the #2 that Elliott Sadler drove this season, and so RCR needs someone with sponsorship for those 10 races. It's being said that Danica is likely to leave JR Motorsports because her and Junior, who were going to split-time in a 3rd car, wanted some of the same races on their schedule and couldn't agree on who ran which race." At least we'll get our best glimpse and exactly what Danica's made of in stock car racing. RCR's going to be a big improvement over JRM, and if she can't at least match what Gaughan did in his part-time schedule with RCR this season (Gaughan's had some bad luck, but his 92.3 driver rating is solid) then that really won't bode well for her future success in NASCAR. Speaking of JRM, although I think Regan's a better driver than Almirola, I'm not sure he's going to be able to do much better at JRM than Almirola did simply due to the equipment. I'm hoping their personel changes will pay big dividends for 2013, but the competition in Nationwide next year is going to be as stiff as it's been in years. 858. ch posted: 11.16.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Inception Motorsports (majority owner) has been sold to Brandon Davis, owner of Swan Energy. The sale occured right before the Talladega fall race. That explains why the team has been running the Swan Energy logos recently. David Stremme will remain the driver as well as a minority owner for 2013. The new team name is Swan Racing Company (Swan Racing for short). I believe that Inception group is no longer involved with the team. If they are it is just a minority ownership. Webmaster - From Talladega (fall) to now, the owner should be changed from Timothy McSweeney to Brandon Davis. The new team website is swanracingco.com (it takes a while to load) 859. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @858 Inception Motorsports sounds way cooler than Swan Racing Company. 860. ch posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It really does, but I guess it's similar to BK Racing. Getting the sponsor's / owner's name more publicity. 861. Talon64 posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Ford 400 page will be up pretty soon, but I just wanted to say that I couldn't dream that qualifying could go as well for Brad as it ended up being! And his 2013 teammate's on the pole, so that'll help as far as Keselowski getting a lap led early in the race. 862. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, what a thread. This is the 862nd post. I'm actually a little surprised we didn't break 1000 comments. 863. AntG posted: 12.20.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've never got why some drivers after a small altercation and end up with damge which is fixable for them to go back out on the race track decide to completely destroy their car in an act of retaliation. It's disrespectful to the team and sponsors who've invested hard work, time and money into building your car. This "have at it boys" is a load of crap, a real man would confront his rival face to face after the race. This isn't just an attack on Jeff who I'm a fan of but an attack on all these guys who feel the need to turn their race car into a missile and putting themselves and others at risk for the sake of "pride" or some BS. 864. Teren posted: 01.24.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Turning Clint Bowyer into the wall collecting Joey Logano. Too Bad for Logano! ;( 865. ch posted: 07.16.2013 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor for the #30 should be Swan Energy for consistency. 866. Nascar24NBC posted: 11.17.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2 For Kevin Harvick 2012 and now 2013 great race man proud of you 867. Maverick posted: 10.16.2016 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, just sifting through the comments I came across this: 68. murb posted: 11.10.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: Like this comment (0) Dislike this comment (0) "That being said, he will NEVER be a Sprint Cup Champion. I was reading another racing forum earlier just for laughs, and they were talking about his move to SHR. These idiots actually think that he can win a Cup when he moves over there!!!" 868. chevyfan98 posted: 10.16.2016 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And that was when he was a Harvick fan, too (correct me if I'm wrong murb). We've all made bad predictions though. Here's a few of mine from through the years: Early 2008: Reed Sorenson is going to have a huge year 2009 Preseason: David Ragan is going to take the next step forward from his breakout 2008 season 2011-2012 Offseason: Aric Almirola getting the 43 sounds like a weird decision. I doubt he lasts more than one year. 2015 Preseason: Sam Hornish will have a big year in the 9. Early 2016 (this one is somewhere here on RR, forgot what page though): Is it safe to say yet that Austin Dillon is a better driver than Kyle Larson? 869. murb posted: 10.16.2016 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My "Kyle Busch will never win a Cup title" rant on the 2014 Fall Bristol page was way better than that Harvick one. And my all time best was probably my "Nelson Piquet Jr will be a Cup superstar" prediction at some point in 2012. "And that was when he was a Harvick fan, too (correct me if I'm wrong murb)." That was like right after I stopped caring for him. 870. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 10.16.2016 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Someone should make a collection of Jason Gilstrap AKA DSFF quotes from 2008-Fall 2013 regarding Brad Keselowski because he was a huge fan of his during this period and it is very ironic given that his opinions of Mr Keselowski have dramatically changed since he won the championship nearly 4 years ago. 871. JSPorts posted: 10.16.2016 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I wasn't posting on here at the time, but I've been cheering for Brad since 2007. I was a big Dale Jr. fan, and supported pretty much all his drivers from Xfinity (Cassill, Whitt, Wise, Sadler, Smith, Allgaier, etc.) Yes, he's outspoken, but I really enjoy watching him drive and seeing his passion for the sport, even if I don't always agree with what he says/does. 872. Anonymous posted: 01.07.2017 - 7:06 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) I still think Jeff's start streak should have ended here. Was a joke that NASCAR didn't suspend him 873. Josh posted: 01.17.2017 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) I am not saying that what Jeff Gordon did this day was right. But isn't it interesting that Clint Bowyer hasn't found victory lane nor sniffed a title since this incident? Jeff Gordon went on to win a few more races, and had a shot at a title. Message: sent. 874. Wil posted: 02.21.2019 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biggest cheap shot in the history of the sport in this race. Slap in the face to race fans when Gordon wasn't suspended and won the next race. Kenseth pulled a much more defensible (and less dangerous) move at martinsville years later and was parked for 2 races, but he isn't the sports golden boy like Gordon. What a farce. 875. Mannoroth posted: 02.22.2019 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 874. Plus, he also ruined Logano's and Almirola's race with that move. But Matt Kenseth just isn't a 4time champ with 93 wins... 876. JG24Ever posted: 02.22.2019 - 7:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Username aside, I'd argue Kenseth's cheap shot was worse since it legitimately took a driver out of serious championship contention. Gordon did take out Bowyer when he was in some contention, but it was an outside shot and nothing like Logano's situation. Had Logano not been wrecked, he would've won the race and likely the championship with advancing to Homestead. Nonetheless, both were poor showings of sportsmanship. 877. Sector posted: 02.01.2020 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Man, after reading about these past comments, the Jeff Gordon hate was unreal. Some people were so sure that Gordon would have been suspended at Homestead. He didn't. Some people were so convinced that Gordon would never win at Homestead. He sure did win the very next race which would be at Homestead. How the world proved haters wrong. Lol 878. ShinyMew151 posted: 02.01.2020 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just because he wasn't suspended doesn't mean he didn't deserve it 879. Jimmie4life posted: 05.26.2020 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @873 Must not have heard of Spingate. 880. Anonymous posted: 03.13.2021 - 7:57 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) After nearly a decade, Clint Bowyer and Jeff Gordon are now at the booth after that huge fracas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: