|| *Comments on the 2012 Ford EcoBoost 400:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. Daniel posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In using fastest 43: #33 Stephen Leicht & #79 Reed Sorenson Out using fastest 43: #11 Denny Hamlin & #32 Ken Schrader 2. Frank posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) First. Damn, totally agree with all who is for Gordon to be parked. What a history that could've made. And Brad is terrific strong.... 3. Talon64 posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey Logano earns his 5th career Sprint Cup Series pole and 2nd of 2012. Of the 3 times that the pole sitter has won the race in 2012, it's been done by Logano once (Pocono) and Jimmie Johnson twice (Martinsville, Texas). The last driver to win the last race of a season then switch teams for the next season was Tim Richmond, going from Jim Tracy's team in 1982 to Raymond Beadle's in 1983. Logano, starting from pole, and Matt Kenseth, a former winner at Homestead, each stand a good chance of doing it. Marcos Ambrose has his 4th front row start of 2012 (two poles, two 2nd's). Brad Keselowski has his 2nd-best qualifying effort of 2012 in 3rd (2nd in August Bristol race), just his 4th top 5 start of the season. Aric Almirola qualifies 5th for the 3rd time in the last 5 races, his 7th top 5 start of 2012. After out-qualifying Keselowski in 5 consecutive races, he's now been out-qualified in each of the last two races (8.5 avg start for Keselowski, versus 17.0 avg start for Johnson). If Keselowski leads a lap in the race, then he only needs to finish 16th or better to win the championship. 4. Talon64 posted: 11.16.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) whoops, by "he" in the 2nd-last part I mean Jimmie Johnson. also, Hendrick Motorsports has never won at Homestead in Cup. 5. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano is the 10th driver to win multiple poles this year. Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne, and Mark Martin tie for the series lead in poles with 4 apiece. 6. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) During Cup qualifying, Mike Joy said that he thinks Clint Bowyer is the exact type of driver that Earnhardt fans have been looking for since Dale died. I don't want to generalize Earnhardt fans, but to me this is another example of the driver of the Blue Deuce being over-looked. Bowyer is nothing more than a whiny, fake Jeff Burton in my eyes. This battle for the Truck championship is exciting. I hope James Buescher wins this thing, but either way I can't complain about who wins this championship between he, Timothy Peters, and Ty Dillon. 7. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice job by Joey Logano winning the pole in his final Cup start for Joe Gibbs Racing. This is his 2nd pole of the season. The other time he won the pole this season, he led over 1/4 of the race and went on to win at Pocono. 8. murb posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said on the Phoenix page, if Red Horse would have convinced Parker Kligerman to come back for one more year of Trucks next year, they would have had a strong chance of winning the championship. He's on the pole for tonight's race, and I'm looking for him to have another strong run. 9. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the heck happened to Hamlin? 10. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hear what you're saying murb, but I've seen Parker Kligerman in the Nationwide Series a couple times the last few years and he's ready to move up to Nationwide. Had he stayed in Trucks for another season, he probably would be the favorite for the title, but it's not something that he needs on his resume. I'm still anxious to find out which team he'll drive for next year. I have a feeling it'll be for Turner Motorsports, but nothing has been said yet. 11. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This battle for the Truck championship is exciting. I hope James Buescher wins this thing, but either way I can't complain about who wins this championship between he, Timothy Peters, and Ty Dillon." The main reason I would not want to Dillon win would be because he is in the #3 truck, and we would never hear the end of "Ty Dillon is carrying on the family legacy". Plus, since he is a rookie, everyone would start touting him as "the next great thing". I guess he's an okay guy. It just that I'm biased against drivers' and crew chiefs' children in racing. 12. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hear what you're saying David, but I've been watching Ty closely since his Truck debut last year and I think that not only is he more likable than his brother, but he's more talented as well. If you can overlook the fact that he's driving for the same guy who "started the #3 legacy" and thinks Kurt Busch has matured over the years, I think he is a pretty likable driver who has a lot of talent. 13. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I would like both the Dillon brothers, especially Ty, if they didn't wear the cowboy hats all the time. 14. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think I would like both the Dillon brothers, especially Ty, if they didn't wear the cowboy hats all the time." So true. Same for Stenhouse. Lately Ty has either been wearing a sponsor hat or nothing on his head, but he does look silly with a cowboy hat on. 15. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The #09 Truck team totally rigged that motor to blow quick so their driver wouldn't tear another one up. Feel good about qualifying. Doesn't seem like the 48 has the speed it wants so Brad needs to play it cool. He starts up front so hopefully it will get settled up there quick and he can run his pace. I also heard the Clint comment. I have nothing against Clint, but he doesn't have enough on track flair to reach those of us that have been waiting for the "next Dale". What they have to realize is that what will constitute the "next Dale" is a driver that the core fans can identify with. As Paul mentioned, that is Brad for the most part. Some will disagree. But he is identified with by by his generation. 16. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hear what you're saying David, but I've been watching Ty closely since his Truck debut last year and I think that not only is he more likable than his brother, but he's more talented as well. If you can overlook the fact that he's driving for the same guy who "started the #3 legacy" and thinks Kurt Busch has matured over the years, I think he is a pretty likable driver who has a lot of talent." I totally forgot to mention in my previous post that a Dillon championship would mean another NASCAR title for the "out-of-touch owner". I haven't seen a Truck race since last year's finale, so I can't be a fair judge of his personality. I'll take your word for it. And as for your assessment of his future compared to his brother, David Smith appears to concur with you. He wrote an article back in August comparing the Dillon brothers, and noted that Ty's PEER was higher than Austin's in their respective rookie seasons. As they stand, Ty will outPEER his brother by at least one level. 17. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This Kyle Larson kid is the real deal. 18. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn there's already a lot of comments here. Yea, what DID happen to Dennis Hamlin? He qualified over a second slower than his pole-winning teammate! Brad looking good so far... One more thing, Kyle Larson just passed Kyle Busch for the lead in the Truck race. You guys think this kid is realistically the next big Cup superstar? 19. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Larson is officially on my radar now. 20. Baker posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Get some Kes! Starting 3rd hopefully he makes quick work of Ambrose and then if he doesn't have anything for Logano he can at least work out a deal with his future teammate and get him to let him pass him for a lap to get that 1 bonus point. I actually want to see Keselowski go out there and dominate the race and win it leaving no question who the best driver was this year for the full season and in the chase. I want him to leave no doubt in anyones mind that he went toe to toe with 5 time and took the fight to him. I want it to be the type of run and finish to this championship that get inside Jimmie's head like he has gotten to Hamlin, Harvick, Edwards and others. 21. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny's car was bottoming out really bad, but I don't know what exactly caused that. 22. JRacingFast posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who do you guys think this Kyle Larson kid reminds you of?? 23. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is PEER like the Value Above Replacement statistic? If so, just out of curiosity, what was Earnhardt's value above replacement? He won one championship with Rod Osterlund during his cup of coffee in NASCAR, then won 6 with Richard Childress who may or may not be Jerry Jones' long lost brother as far as building teams. 24. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle has been working the bottom better than anybody in this race. I saw him divebomb Parker Kligerman earlier in the race, but was able to hold the wheel very well and gained the position without sliding into Parker. He made a similar move on Kyle Busch to take the lead. He reminds me of Kasey Kahne, but I don't remember Kasey being this good this early in his career. 25. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Richard Childress who may or may not be Jerry Jones' long lost brother as far as building teams." Not to mention the fact that both of them take all the credit for their team's work and love the attention they get. 26. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Larson has handled everything masterfully so far. I'm very impressed. Caution. F**k. And of course there is Mikey's unprofessional cheering for the caution. He is a tool and a loser with no redeemable qualities. 27. Baker posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been telling you guys for a while when Kyle Larson gets stock cars figured out he is going to be scary good. Those of you tell me J.J. Yeley was supposed to be good too clearly don't follow USAC like I do because Larson is doing more earlier in his career than Yeley ever did and shows more raw driving talent than Yeley or Leffler ever did in there dirt days. If you guys think Larson looks good in these Truck races you ought to see what the kid does behind the wheel of an Outlaws Sprint Car. Kid has some serious skills. 28. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is PEER like the Value Above Replacement statistic? If so, just out of curiosity, what was Earnhardt's value above replacement? He won one championship with Rod Osterlund during his cup of coffee in NASCAR, then won 6 with Richard Childress who may or may not be Jerry Jones' long lost brother as far as building teams." One, PEER is exactly like Wins Above Replacement, in the sense that it has been compared to it more than once. Two, David Smith doesn't just have an all-time list of best PEERs. It would be awesome if he did, though. PEER basically handicaps for equipment and measures the production value of a driver during a race. It is a season-long statistic, so 0.000 to 0.999 is replacement-level, 1.000 to 1.999 is serviceable, 2.000 to 2.999 is fringe title contender-level, 3.000 to 3.999 is serious title contender-level, and 4.000 and beyond is a historic performance. 29. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you happy Mikey you unprofessional sack of shit. Instead of deserving new winner, we are gonna get Kyle Busch winning yet another lower level race cause that is all he is worth. 30. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks David. By my unofficial calculations, Dale's PEER at Childress is about a 27. 31. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "0.000 to 0.999 is replacement-level" I take that back. It is possible for a driver to hold a negative PEER, which I imagine is being so bad he/she defaces the apparent equipment value. 32. Jim Davis posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " He is a tool and a loser with no redeemable qualities." But how do you feel about him personally? Seriously, I sometimes think we're discussing serial killers and child molesters instead of stock car drivers. 33. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Thanks David. By my unofficial calculations, Dale's PEER at Childress is about a 27." Hahahahahaha...no. The higher the series, the more rare a 4.000 PEER becomes. But I do not doubt that Dale could and did often achieve that mark. You don't know how badly I want to know how PEER is calculated. All I know is that Smith devised it while watching "Shark Week" (I know this because he tweeted it). 34. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) F**k. Larson was there and was gonna fly past both Kyle and Matt. Mikey: "I love Truck racing". You moron, we were about to see a classic 10 lap shootout, now it will be a short clusterf**k like last week's Cup race. And how much of a tool does KyBu look like running with all these lower level guys? 35. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is the race really almost over? The radio feed from the laptop has been off and on all night, and it seems like the race just started. 36. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CRASH!!!!! 37. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Buescher just won the title, pretty much... Vicious crash for Ryan Blaney. 38. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh shit! Damn that was a hard impact. I hope Blaney's okay. 39. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FUUUUUUUUUUU- Larson was doing so well, sucks for Ty Dillon and Ryan Blaney too. 40. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Larson just became this week's Jeff Gordon. 41. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate late race cautions. Initial thought: Ty moved down to block and shouldn't have. Now I will watch the replays and probably be wrong. 42. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Larson just made one divebomb too many in this race. I hate it for Ty Dillon because at the time he was just 1 point behind Buescher. 43. Frank posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for me it's 50/50 between 3 and 4. And DSFF I'm for Kyle in this race. He's been robbed by Jacques DeBris at Atlanta (though Ty is a good winner too). 44. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where is the consistency king, Timothy Peters? 45. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was good hard racing for position. Larson dove to the bottom, Ty tried to hold him back, nobody's fault. A racin' deal. That said, in a title fight, might should have not made that move. 46. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Larson made a rookie mistake, unfortuantly it cost Ty the championship and him and Blaney good runs and possible shots at the win. 47. Matt posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dillon came down and chopped Larson, he tried to push him under the yellow line. 3 got what he deserved. 48. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course the guy who had the hardest hit in that wreck was a guy who wasn't part of the initial wreck. That was a hard hit for Blaney, luckily he hit at a little bit of an angle with the right front and didn't hit 100% head on. 49. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hope you feel good about yourself by running this race kyle busch. a bunch of kids trying to make a name for themselves and a ego-starved douchbag with 8 years of full-time cup experience. 50. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regardless of his divebomb going wrong, Kyle Larson ran a terrific race tonight and got the absolute most out of his Turner equipment. Nothing's official, but assuming that James Buescher moves on to Nationwide next year, Larson has the talent to defend his team's title next season. 51. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see Ryan Blaney's okay after that hard impact. At least he hit the wall at an angle so as to lessen the hit. Hopefully he has a good race tomorrow. 52. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) paul, supposably buescher has some sponsors willing to commit to help do a full nns season next year but *only* if he wins the truck championship. otherwise james will likely be back in trucks next year. 53. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good Lord Mikey shut up for once in your failure of a life. What Larson did is what racing is all about. Of course real racing is something you know nothing about. Also, poetic justice, the #3 on the side of Ty's Truck is unreadable. A sign perhaps? 54. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is going on with these guys and not being able to line up right. 55. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, it sort of reminds me of last year at Phoenix when the ESPN announcers were shitting all over Jason Leffler for getting into Elliott Sadler, even though it was Sadler's fault for slowing down too early. It seems like the announcers expect everybody to just lie down for the title contenders. 56. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CALE GALE!!!!! 57. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CALE GALE! One hell of a finish, if I must say. 58. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gale had fresh tires, but he still had to take advantage of it and he did a great job. 59. Frank posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ahahaha - that "Holy cow" by Mikey was so full of sadness! 60. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) James Buescher is your 2012 NASCAR Camping World Truck Series champion. 61. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cale Gale you are da Man!!!!! Congratulations to James Buescher and Turner Motorsports on winning the 2012 Camping World Truck Series Championship!! 62. JRacingFast posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CALE GALE!!!! Sigh.....How many weeks till DAYTONA!??!?! 63. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did that finish remind anyone else of the finish between Craven and Kurt Busch at Darlington in '03? 64. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NOW THAT IS NASCAR RACING!!!! Hell yea!! Reminds me of Darlington 2003. 65. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did that finish remind anyone else of the finish between Craven and Kurt Busch at Darlington in '03?" I thought the same thing. Ironically, an underdog beat a Busch brother to win the race. Kudos to Ty Dillon for being so gracious in defeat. It's a shame that he finishes 4th in the points because he deserved at least a top 3 finish, but it was still a great rookie season. 66. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, Cale Gale is emotional in victory lane. That's what I like to see. Someone truly appreciative of winning for the first time. 67. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cale Gale just pulled a Ricky Craven. Trucks easily had the best racing of all three Top NASCAR series in 2012. 68. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Pop-Pop is smart he'll sign Cale Gale to drive full time for him next year. 69. Frank posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like me and my good friend are saying all this year - Trucks are saving NASCAR! Can't wait 2013 after great news about Eldora & Mosport. 70. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Cale Gale gets a deal put together for 2013. He's shown some flashes this season that got trumped by bad luck, and I'm so happy he gets a NASCAR win. It's so rare seeing drivers get emotional in victory lane these days, and I love seeing guys get overwhelmed by emotions when they win a race. 71. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Man, Cale Gale is emotional in victory lane. That's what I like to see. Someone truly appreciative of winning for the first time." Amen. Jamie McMurray was in tears after the 2010 Daytona 500 because he appreciated the magnitude of his win, and because of his uncertain offseason. 72. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Buescher brothers both won a title this year - Chris in ARCA and James in Trucks... 73. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle, you can't even beat the minor leaguers. Helluva job Cale. 74. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, what about Brad against Lofton at Charlotte? He looked much worse losing that race than Kyle did tonight. 75. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, Buescher brothers both won a title this year - Chris in ARCA and James in Trucks..." Actually, they're cousins. Last year, the Dillon brothers each won the Truck and ARCA title. This year, the Buescher cousins each win the Truck and ARCA title. 76. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's amazing how in the Truck series the series regulars can actually beat the Cup guys, unlike in Nationwide. It's more fun when the series regulars can regularly beat the Cup drivers. 77. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry for posting so many thoughts in a row, but this race shows why the Truck series is the most fun to watch of the three national series of NASCAR. 78. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, Lofton had the best truck at Charlotte and beat a team that hadn't won a race before. Cale Gale wasn't even near the front until Ty and Larson crashed, and beat a team that has won 18 races in three years. This win was even more surprising than Lofton's. 79. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've said all season that the Truck Series is the best series. I knew that when the Truck race at Texas was boring that the rest of the weekend would be a bore, and it was (until the final laps of the Cup race). 80. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I realize that and my comment was definitely heat of the moment. But it does have to be acknowledged that Gale had much fresher tires and fresh tires were definitely important tonight. 81. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) nice to see how emotional cale gale was in victory lane. meanwhile, all kyle busch could say was "it doesn't matter." busch also said that dollar general would not return as a sponsor at kbm next year, it would be nice if they would just run two trucks next year with coulter full-time in one and ross kenseth / drew herring / german quiroga splitting another but i doubt kyle's ego could go an entire season without running some lower series races. 82. Eric posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I though the final lap of the race was the 2003 race at Darlington between Craven and Kurt Busch. 83. 18fan posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This season in the Truck series showed what good shape the future of the sport is. With the exception of Timothy Peters, look at the top 5 in truck points. Buescher, Dillon, Coulter and Kligerman all appear to have bright futures. Plus you throw in Piquet, Ryan Blaney, Austin Dillon, Stenhouse, Darrell Wallace, Kyle Larson, and there are probably many more who I'm leaving out. These guys are coming up at a good time with a lot of the Cup stars getting closer to the end of their careers. 84. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After start-and-parking the last two races, Ross Chastain gets a top ten finish. I think he has the talent to be among those you mentioned 18fan, but he hasn't gotten the good breaks either. Nelson Piquet, Jr. must have hit the wall about five times in this race and finished 4th. He'll be fun to watch next season, regardless of which series he competes in. 85. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So it looks like Jimmie Johnson realizes he can't beat Brad at this point, so he's trying to use the media to get in his head. I hate to break it to you champ, but this isn't just any "Johnny-come-lately" that you've beaten over the years. Brad is more than capable of beating your ass this Sunday, 20-point lead or not, and no mind games are going to rattle him, son. 86. cjs3872 posted: 11.16.2012 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Doesn't anyone think it's ironic that a driver named after Cale Yarborough would win a race with a fender-banging, last-lap pass for the win? After all, Cale Gale was named after the legend from South Carolina, and Yarborough could never have done it better himself. After all, Yarborough was THE most aggressive driver in his day, taking second to nobody. And how many races did Cale Yarborough win by psssing the leader on the last lap, including twice in the Daytona 500 (1983-'84) and twice in the Firecracker 400 (1967, '81), and nearly again in the Firecracker 400 in 1984, and he also won races that way at Michigan and Talladega. so I find it fiting that Cale Gale, a driver named after Cale Yarborough, would score his first major NASCAR victory in a fender-banging duel on the last lap. And it sure was a fitting way for the Truck Series to end, with a ninth first-time winner, and Kyle Busch frustrated again. This race, more than any other, may have been the portrait of Kyle Busch's 2012 season across all of NASCAR's major series. Frustratingly close, but no cigar. And young Kyle Larson is going to have nightmares over the last two races. He should have won both, but lack of experience hurt him both times, especially on restarts, and he's REALLY going to have nightmares after this race, because he actually cost Ty Dillon the championship, because enough trucks were going to pass James Buescher to give Dillon the title by a point or two. Though there are those here that like the fact that Larson's move cost RCR a championship. Larson should be able to win lots of races and some championships in the future, but if he doesn't, he's going to look back on these past two races as sure wins that he threw away, due to poor restarts. 87. murb posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lots of things I need to comment on. - CALE GALE!!!! The coolest name in racing!!!! TeamPlayers said it, he Ricky Craven'd Kyle. As they were coming down, I was immediately taken back to my 8 year old self in 2003 watching Ricky beat Kurt to the line in the same fashion at Darlington. - Of course Kyle reverts back to his old self in his interview, just weeks after I praised him for his classy post race interview at Martinsville. Go figure. - Congrats to James Buescher. He and his team were the best overall all year in the Truck Series, so they deserve it completely. James reminds me a lot of Greg Biffle. To put it loosely, both those guys aren't really the sexiest names or drivers to have in your car. But they also aren't gonna make asses out of themselves or embarrass the team. And if you do have them, then they will absolutely get the job done for you. - Ty Dillon takes himself out of championship contention. Yeah, Larson (who by the way IS the real deal) drove it deep into the corner, but it was THREE LAPS TO GO. You have to go for the win, and I give Larson props for being aggressive and getting after it. But I think that it was mostly Ty's fault. He clearly came down in front of him, and Larson went all the way to the apron so he really couldn't do anything else. Still, I have to commend Ty for his handling of it. I thought he handled it much, much better than his brother would have. - Michael Waltrip, please stop. Just stop. As an analyst, you are PAINFUL to listen to. - Johnny Sauter is my pick for the 2013 Truck Series Championship. I just think he will be really pissed off about finishing 9th in points this year, so he will be motivated. Plus, Thorsport will have a year under their belt with Toyota, so they should come back stronger. But of course, Ty will be strong too. And hopefully we can get some surprise contenders as well, much like how Coulter and Kligerman were this year. 88. Eric posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Ty Dillon or Sauter will be the 2013 Truck Series champion. 89. Paul posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I thought he handled it much, much better than his brother would have." Austin actually tweeted "Really?" shortly after the wreck that was shown during the live broadcast. I don't know if he was saying that because of the fact that Ty got wrecked or the way he got wrecked, but I have a feeling that he wouldn't have taken the high road the way that Ty did. I thought it was pretty classy of Ty to congratulate Cale Gale in victory lane as well. At the very least, he is more gracious in defeat than Kyle Busch. In his post-race interview, he said "It doesn't matter", and then in the media center he said "I got run into the fence." I don't think that Kyle has a problem with losing so much as he has problem with who he loses to. I rarely see him complain about getting beat in Cup, but whether it be losing to Brad at Michigan '09 or Memphis '09, Joey Coulter at Kansas '11, or Cale Gale tonight, he always seems to be in a bad mood after a lower series driver kicks his ass. If he can't accept the fact that he's going to get beat in the lower series by lower series drivers, then he should stick to Cup because he isn't doing himself any favors by getting frustrated and pissed off all the time. 90. David posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 16 different drivers won a race during the 2012 Camping World Truck Series season. Nine of them were first-time winners. 91. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't understand a bunch of you people. If any one of you say that you'd be happy to run a race for 2-4 hours and be happy about finishing 2nd, then you're lying. Now, Kyle Busch isn't my favorite driver, but damn. You people act like he is satan. 92. Crash McGehee posted: 11.16.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^About damned time someone understands the truth 93. 1,2,21 posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #74 What alot of people don't understand is that Brad has an emotional attachment to the trucks hes wants to win one of them to be with his father as a father son duo to both win in the truck series 94. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I played football for 10 years when I was in school, and after every game; win, loss, or tie, all of my teammates and I shook the hands of our opponents and told them "Good game." If he can't even acknowledge Cale Gale getting his first career NASCAR win by beating Kyle in a side-by-side battle and pouts about it afterwards, then he is a sore loser and deserves every bit of criticism bestowed upon him. At Martinsville a few weeks ago, Joey Coulter and Nelson Piquet, Jr. were beatin' and bangin' on each other over the final couple laps, and afterwards they shook hands and were all smiles after a good hard race. If two young up-and-coming drivers can display a great show of sportsmanship after hard racing, then what's Kyle Busch's excuse? If it's because he's a Cup driver and doesn't like losing to Truck Series drivers, then he should stick to Cup where he can get beat by drivers on "his level". And if it's because he doesn't like being raced that way, then maybe he should take off the skirt and grow a pair because this isn't ballet, this is auto racing. And if you can't handle the beating and banging that goes along with it, either suck it up and deal with it, dish out what you're being served, or get the hell out because you don't belong here. And for the record, it doesn't matter if it was Kyle, Harvick, Kasey, Hamlin, Joey, or any other Cup driver who enters these lower series races. If you race in a lower series, you are no longer a Cup driver. You are a race car driver, just like everybody else in the field, and the fact that you have a Cup ride doesn't entitle you to more space on the race track. If you don't like it, stick to Cup racing where it's single-file racing every lap, every race. That way these diva Cup drivers don't have to worry about the "dirty" drivers of the Truck Series roughing them up too much. It's one thing to be disappointed about a loss. It's another thing to act like an ass afterwards because another driver dared to go for the win by making contact with you. Don't worry, he'll be in a much better mood once he gets beat by the Cup drivers on Sunday, because at least they're on "his level". 95. Red posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Truck Series is unquestionably the #2 series in NASCAR, way ahead of Nationwide. Better competition, less Cup drivers, more excitement. If I were in charge of NASCAR, I would merge N'Wide and Trucks, which would provide the feeder series with a full field of competitive cars. The current N'Wide series is just a waste of sheet metal, but merging it with the Trucks would make it worthwhile again. On the subject of PEER, Danica Patrick has a comically bad -1.050 in Cup, the worst in the series by a mile. I believe SHR equipment has a handicap of -1.250, so Princess is barely above the worst possible rating anyone could register in that car. Michael McDowell and JJ Yeley are over a full point of PEER in front of Danica, and they start & park almost every week. That's how bad she is. 96. Anonymous posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can someone tell me what Buckshot Jones career PEER is? 97. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Brad wins the title on Sunday 2 of the 3 national champions will have won the championship without winning a pole this season. 98. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Which, as Bobby Unser once stated during one of his very infrequent appearances as an expert commentator on a NASCAR race, shows how unimportant qualifying is. Bobby said that in relation to Davey Allison charging up from 25th starting position in the spring race at Atlanta in 1992, which he called along with Paul Page and Benny Parsons for ABC Sports, to contend for the lead inside the first 100 miles, and dominating most of that race before crazy racing luck struck the leaders and gave Bill Elliott a 1-lap lead late in a race in which he was never a factor in, allowing Elliott to coast home to what may have been the luckiest win of his career. 99. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know if this was mentioned, but Penske has confirmed that Sam Hornish will return to drive full time in the Nationwide Series and select Cup races next year. 100. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 3:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hoping this is the start of Brad's championship weekend. Qualifying 3rd is a great way to begin it. I predict he passes Ambrose and Logano early to be able to get his bonus point for leading a lap out of the way, then shoot for the best finish he can get and if that means he will win, then I'll take it. 101. Anonymous posted: 11.17.2012 - 9:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If I were in charge of NASCAR, I would merge N'Wide and Trucks, which would provide the feeder series with a full field of competitive cars. The current N'Wide series is just a waste of sheet metal, but merging it with the Trucks would make it worthwhile again." For a while now, I've had a crazy idea about changing the Nationwide series to be a pure feeder series into Cup by banning Cup drivers from competing, but making the Nationwide cars identical to the Cup cars. Theoretically, costs would drop because teams would be able to buy complete cars from Cup teams, rather than needing to spend money developing their own unique vehicle and, to make things even more significant and exciting, the winner of each (companion) Nationwide race, would win an entry spot into the Cup race the next day. How cool would that be?! Anyway, I'm rambling.... 102. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guess what else happened this weekend? The Rocketman lost his pole streak. 103. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 10:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since the Racing-Reference community suddenly seems to be interested in PEER, and since David Smith just posted them, here are the final top ten drivers: *Drivers must have competed in at least four races 1. Timothy Peters - 3.614 2. Brad Keselowski - 3.500 3. Parker Kligerman - 3.455 4. Brian Scott - 3.400 5. Kyle Larson - 3.125 6. James Buescher - 2.886 7. Matt Crafton - 2.705 8. Jeb Burton - 2.700 9. Ryan Blaney - 2.611 10. Brendan Gaughan - 2.563 104. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Both Marcos Ambrose and Aric Almirola have re-signed with RPM. And just to add to what 18fan said, Roger Penske is also interested in putting Ryan Blaney in some Nationwide races next year and hopes that Brad can get a deal done that would put Blaney in his truck full-time in 2013. 105. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR has lowered the age limit from 18 to 16 for road courses and tracks less than 1 mile long in the Truck Series. Could this be a way for Chase Elliott to make his Truck debut a year earlier? 106. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad was mad at Hornaday at Charlotte, and would have been ok except Ron approached him immediately to discuss it and cameras caught Brad getting years of frustration off his chest (I treat you like a king and you treat me like......" Besides, his interview wasn't bad. Plus, us Brad fans have made our opinion of him dipping in the lower Series well known. And by the way, compare KyBu's reaction to KuBu's reaction after a nearly identical finish at Darlington '03. And yes, it is awesome that a guy named after Cale Yarborough won. I'd love to see some of these whiny morons like KyBu have to deal with Cale in his day. He would kick their ass gladly. Either way, I'm very proud of Cale Gale. And no, if his name were Geoff Gale I wouldn't be quite as happy :) 107. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The trucks are headed to Greenville-Pickens Speedway next year. 108. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey David, could you also post the top ten after the Nationwide and Cup races this weekend? And just out of curiosity, where did Ty, Coulter, and Piquet rank? I've been reading a few of David Smith's tweets from yesterday, and he posted a few notable things, including a few PEER ratings. Ross Chastain finished out his rookie year with a 1.000 rating, and was ranked as serviceable (by the way, does his rating system take start-and-parks into account?). Ron Hornaday had a 0.909 rating, and Miguel Paludo dropped to 0.773. And apparently Max Gresham and Tim George, Jr. were at the bottom of his PEER rankings out of 53 drivers. 109. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greenville-Pickens? Hell and Yeah! I have a funny Cale Yarborough story. I got his autograph at Darlington this year after chasinf him down in the garage area for about an hour (he is a slippery little dude, lemme tell ya!). In every story about Cale, I have always read how big his forearms are. So here I am, in the presence of greatness, getting the legend's autograph, and all I can do is stare at his forearms (which are huge btw). Love to see him club some of today's drivers over the head with those. 110. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Buckshot Jones' PEER is -12.416. 111. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And by the way, compare KyBu's reaction to KuBu's reaction after a nearly identical finish at Darlington '03." Exactly. You can say whatever you want about Kurt, but that man loves a good hard battle for the win. You can be disappointed after a loss like that, but for one brother to be all smiles after a good hard race for the win and the other is frustrated that they got "put in the fence" says a lot about the two of them. For that reason, I will always prefer Kurt to Kyle. 112. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great. Now I'm the resident expert on PEER. "Hey David, could you also post the top ten after the Nationwide and Cup races this weekend? And just out of curiosity, where did Ty, Coulter, and Piquet rank?" Certainly. I was planning to anyway. Ty Dillon ranked 15th with a 2.023, Joey Coulter was 13th-best with a 2.136, and Nelson Piquet, Jr.'s score of 2.000 ranked 16th. "(by the way, does his rating system take start-and-parks into account?)" Yes. If a driver has a PEER of 0.000, it is likely that he/she spent all of their races starting-and-parking. Start-and-parking requires no discernible skill, so they score a 0.000 for that race. 113. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A few thoughts on the 2013 car and some things that will be different. First off, I love the look. The lines look really good, the best they have looked since the early 90's. Happy about that. One thing I don't like is that they will have the driver's last name decaled across the top of the windshield. Kinda amateurish imo. I have a feeling this is for TV who often had trouble saying which driver is in which car for the non Top 20 rides. Also, they will allow them to have a sponsor decal on the roof. Not sure about that. But they won't let them put numbers or decals on the head light and tail light decals. I like that. Of course, if this car races well, they can do whatever they want with them. 114. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Of course, if this car races well, they can do whatever they want with them." Definitely true. I was just looking at pictures and they definitely are different. I also think they will look much better when they are in the true paint schemes instead of the gray testing schemes. 115. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was the last qualifying session with the top 35 rule. 116. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR is considering having heat races in the Truck Series next year. 117. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One thing I don't like is that they will have the driver's last name decaled across the top of the windshield. Kinda amateurish imo." I know, seriously?!?! People are really going to think NASCAR's fan are dumb rednecks when the cars they follow have the driver's last name on the windshield. What ever happened to the days of identifying a driver by his car number?? I REALLY do not like this change. "This was the last qualifying session with the top 35 rule." Something no one here will miss. 118. ch posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't believe that Nascar is going to allow sponsors to put their logos on the roof of the Cup cars next year. It's going to look so crammed with the number and sponsor in that little space. 119. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One thing I don't like is that they will have the driver's last name decaled across the top of the windshield. Kinda amateurish imo." Unfortunately, most race fans can't read so this effort was all for naught. 120. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't like the idea of a sponsor being on the roof. If it's too big then it takes away the magnitude of the number, and if it's too small then there's really no point in putting a sponsor there. Who knows, maybe this is the first step in designing the cars' sponsor decals to look like the ASA cars, where the number is located on the quarter panels and the rest of the car is filled with sponsors. 121. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I think it is part of the reason for the age lowering for Chase Elliott, but it is more than that. The 2nd thing to look at is Tobacco Companies sponsoring races or teams in the United States really doesn't exist on the big league level anymore after including the truck series. NASCAR changed the age limit for 2002 because of what happened to Kyle Busch in 2001 as a 16 years with CART having a tobacco sponsored race at the same race weekend at the same track the Truck series was at. The 3rd reason is NASCAR has regional touring series that allow people to race starting the age of 15 since 2011. Those regional touring series have tracks that are 1 mile or less and in some cases road courses. The Truck Series next year has schedule will have 11 or 12 races that will be tracks 1 mile or short and road courses depending on if The truck series gets a 2nd road course. 122. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Biffle and Hamlin just wrecked in practice, Hamlin for sure going to backup car. 123. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pole-sitter Joey Logano goes to a backup car as well. This means that Brad will start on the inside of row 1. 124. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately, most race fans can't read so this effort was all for naught." Ha! Go to a race at Martinsville sometime and you will actually believe this. 125. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am a bit surprised that article on ESPN doesn't mention Canadian Tire Motorsport park for the Truck series. That track already announced that they have a Truck Series race date for 2013. Myrtle Beach Speedway being added to the truck series in 2014 as it appears at this time makes the Truck series more exciting. 126. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Pole-sitter Joey Logano goes to a backup car as well. This means that Brad will start on the inside of row 1." No pause for dramatic effect? Come on, now. Joey Logano may have lost the #1 starting position, but he didn't lose the 2 points that he gets for qualifying on the pole in my points system. 127. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano gets lane choice before he goes to the back, but he has said that he will help out his future teammate Brad Keselowski and pick the inside. 128. 44andJoe posted: 11.17.2012 - 2:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >One thing I don't like is that they will have the driver's last name decaled across the top of the windshield. Kinda amateurish imo. It's very IROC-ish, I think... More news on the Truck schedule: Eldora is still tenative as they're designing a variant SAFER Barrier that can be used on dirt, and determining if it would make economic sense for Tony to install it. With G-P next year and MBS back in the big leagues in 2014, can we dare hope for Hickory or maybe even North Wilkesboro back? 129. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did you hear Hendrick's defense of Jeff at the DuPont press conference this weekend. They are still upset over the Spring Martinsville race. They really wanted to get their 200th win at Martinsville where their tragic plane crash happened. Rick said it took him weeks to get over that one. My thoughts on this: First off, I wanna preface this by saying that I still feel for the HMS family for what happened on 10/24/04. I was at that race. The clouds were so low and think that day, all I could initially think about was it was gonna be rained out. I kept joking with my Dad that the clouds were lightening up when they obviously weren't. Of course I feel awful in retrospect as those low clouds caused the plane wreck. I remember seeing Jim Hunter's announcement after the race on the big Nextel Vision screen they had behind the backstretch (they now have it on top of the scoring pylon). I was trying to figure out why nothing was happening with victory lane, and when he made that announcement, my heart sank. I called home and talked to Mom on the way back to the truck and she told me all the people that were on board and I felt like somebody jammed me in the chest with a knife. I'll never forget that ride back home, trying to process it all. I remember listening to the local radio station that played old 80s hits, and how to this day, if I hear some of those songs on Sirius 80s channel, it makes me think of that day. Sometimes I still have to change the channel. I also remember driving to Greensboro the next day for college (a 45 minute drive from where I lived) and just feeling these pains in my chest cause I felt so bad, and how that drive, that day in classes, and the drive home seemed to take forever. But with all that being said, here is my response to Rick and Jeff: 1) The 24 and 48 were out front in the race on 100 lap tires with all new tires behind them. That is a HUGE risk. Anything that happens you have to accept. In the Fall, when it was Brad and June on the front row in the end with badly worn tires, I was clenched like hell cause I knew anything that happened could only be blamed on Brad. And I ask Rick and Jeff this: What was Clint supposed to do? He was behind two rolling roadblocks with a bunch of hungry drivers behind him on fresh tires like him. That is a tough spot. He had to go. 2) Jeff, what about all the times you divebombed a corner? How about the Spring Martinsville race in '05 when you dovebombed Kurt and put him in the wall? And what was your reaction to that? Oh, that's just hard short track racing. Hypocrite. 3) That extremely irritating HMS sense of entitlement. Like they were entitled to that win cause they are HMS. Everyone was supposed to just roll over for them so they could have their moment. What a crock. I know they have won 10 championships since '95 with 4 different teams (Gordon/Evernham and the original Rainbow Warriors, Labonte/DeHart, Gordon/Loomis after almost all the original Rainbow Warriors had defected, and Johnson/Knaus). But that was a dynasty built on dirty money, lots of cheating penalties, and an overall soullessness. And it won't be a huge stretch to make it 11 tomorrow. But they have also turned off a whole generation of NASCAR fans. Ever wonder why all the other NASCAR dominators were celebrated in their primes (both Petty's, Pearson, Cale, Darrell after Rusty spun him in '89, and Dale) yet Gordon and Johnson are still mainly booed to this day. Has it ever dawned on them? 4) Is Martinsville Speedway supposed to be their private domain now? Again, feel awful for what happened, but they aren't the only team to suffer tragedy. Is everyone supposed to just roll over for June at Daytona? How about Petty Enterprises at Talladega? Richard's brother in law died in a freak pit road pressurized water tank explosion there. Believe it or not HMS, there are other race organizations out there with stuff to race for every week, that have been through trials and tribulations, and didn't sell their soul to dirty business to do so. 5) Rick, do you think you are the only person who has ever had a sports loss sting for a while? Get over it. Boo freaking hoo. Just be glad you are allowed to own a NASCAR team. Every other major sport won't let people with felony convictions own a team. Like Eddie DeBartolo, or as we know him, that down to Earth acting guy who owned the team Joe Cool won his Super Bowls for. 130. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.17.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I find it egregious that NASCAR is so strict about tobacco sponsorships to the extent of changing the age minimum to 18 in 2001, when in reality it should be 21 across all series due to the prominence of the much more dangerous alcohol sponsorships. 131. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad selected pit stall #14, which has an opening in front of it and start-and-park driver Michael McDowell behind it. Jimmie selected pit stall #33, which has an opening behind it and Ken Schrader in front of it. 132. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) actually, i think that myrtle beach speedway will be on the truck schedule for 2013, not 2014. 133. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, It does sound egregious, but what happen in 2001 with Kyle Busch was caused by the people in CART at the time, not NASCAR. NASCAR was forced to have Kyle Busch not to race at Auto Club in 2001 by CART. The People in CART at Auto Club Motor Speedway told the race track officials not to allow Kyle Busch to race despite the fact Kyle Busch races in the Truck Series, not CART that weekend. The Auto Club Race for CART in 2001 was sponsored by Marlboro. NASCAR had no choice, but to follow what CART wanted. The reason NASCAR doesn't do 21 years old is because no one complained about anyone under the age of 21 racing despite having alcohol sponsorships. It is up to sponsors and whatever racing series is racing for NASCAR companion race to say something. NASCAR isn't exactly know to do some stuff without being told to like how they handle head and neck restraints before Dale's death, or how they treat concussions. They only did 18 years old because of what they experienced and are so strict with tobacco sponsorships. It is not all on NASCAR for being strict on Tobacco Sponsorships. You have to also blame The United States Government on that. The reason Ron Hornaday doesn't have a tobacco sponsorship anymore is due to a bill the federal government passed in some point in 2010. The Federal Government wanted to limit or get a rid of Tobacco sponsorships dating back to the 1990's before 2010. 134. Nelson (9fan, 24hater) posted: 11.17.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Daytona Shootout drivers. #5 - Kasey Kahne - 4 poles (Las Vegas Kobalt Tools 400, Martinsville Goody-s Fast Relief 500, Talladega Good Sam Road Side Assistance 500, Kansas Hollywood Casino 400) #9 - Marcos Ambrose - 2 poles (Michigan Quicken Loans 400, Sonoma Toyota/Save Mart 350) #11 - Denny Hamlin - 3 poles (Auto Club 400, Indianapolis Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400, Dover AAA 400) and 2006 Shootout winner. #14 - Tony Stewart - 2001, 2002 and 2007 Shootout winner. Atlanta Advocare 500 pole. #16 - Greg Biffle - 3 poles (Bristol Food City 500 and Darlington Bojangles- Southern 500, Charlotte Bank of America 500) #20 - Matt Kenseth - Daytona Coke Zero 400 pole. #18 - Kyle Busch - 2012 Shootout winner. 2 poles (New Hampshire Lennox Industrial Tools 301, Phoenix Advocare 500K) #22 - Joey Logano - 2 poles (Pocono 400 Presented by #NASCAR, Homestead Ford 400) #?? - A.J. Allmendinger - Kansas STP 400 pole. #24 - Jeff Gordon - 2 poles (Talladega Aaron-s 499, New Hampshire Sylvania 300) 1994 and 1997 Shootout winner. #29 - Kevin Harvick - 2009 and 2010 Shootout winner. #32 - Terry Labonte - 1985 Shootout winner #?? - Ken Schrader - 1989 and 1990 Shootout winner. #42 - Juan Pablo Montoya - 2 poles (Pocono Pennsylvania 400 pole, Watkins Glen Finger Lakes 355(k) pole) #43 - Aric Almirola - Charlotte Coca-Cola 600 pole. #48 - Jimmie Johnson - 2005 winner. 4 poles (Kentucky Quaker State 400, Chicagoland Geico 400, Martinsville Tums Fast Relief 500, Texas AAA Texas 500) #78 - Kurt Busch - 2011 Shootout winner. #55 - Mark Martin - 4 poles (Subway Fresh Fit 500k at Phoenix, Richmond Capital City 400 Presented by Virginia is for Lovers, Dover FedEx 400 benefiting Autism Speaks, Michigan Pure Michigan 400) . 1999 Shootout winner. #56 - Martin Truex Jnr. - Texas Samsung Mobile 500 pole. #88 - Dale Earnhardt Jnr. - 2003 and 2008 Shootout winner. Richmond Federated Auto Parts 400 pole. #97 - Bill Elliott - 1987 winner #99 - Carl Edwards - Daytona 500 pole 135. Baker posted: 11.17.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well said DSFF. I cannot stand those smug egos at Hendrick. 136. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse to his spotter: "I don't need to hear it every lap". If I were his spotter, I'd say "ok, but when you stuff it in the fence, I don't wanna hear you bitching". I couldn't work with most of today's drivers. 137. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Very few start-and-parks in the Nationwide Series today. Of course, part of the reason is because four of them DNQ'd. Regan Smith is running really well in this race. From what I heard, HMS has three of their Cup crew chiefs on the pit box to help make adjustments throughout the race. 138. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am psyched to see the Truck Series going back to their roots!!!! Now if only the Cup Series would take a page out of their book... Haven't really been watching the NNS race, and I don't really care to. Stenhouse is gonna win the championship barring a disaster, so it's really just another Cup Driver Invitational. 139. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sadler's pit crew dropped a lugnut. Not good. Hornish and Smith just took the top 2 spots away from Kyle Busch. Hopefully they can stay there and one of them can end the season with a win. 140. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (#106), absolutely. As much flak as we all give Kurt Busch, he has had his moments where he's acted like a true gentleman, and what happened at Darlington in 2003 was a perfect example. After realizing he was part of one of the greatest finishes in Cup series history at one of the most prestigous tracks, he went to victory lane to congratulate Ricky Craven on the win. Another was congratulating Jeff Gordon on winning the 2005 Daytona 500, in which Kurt finished second. I can't recall Kyle performing such an act of sportsmanship. 141. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is Marty Reid on a heavy dose of sedatives? 142. Baker posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or did Danica Patrick just run Hornish down the track right before that restart? That has got to be at least the 6th time she has gone after him this year. I am not a Danica hater like 98% of you guys I actually wanted her to succeed until she started rubbing me wrong the last few years. I am getting extremely sick and tired of her fued with Sam Hornish Jr. Its a joke. It is 100% one sided and I wish Hornish would put her in the fence and addmitt it was payback then call her out for being the spoiled little brat she has become. 143. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's what it looked like to me Baker. And it was so stupid because it put her in the middle of the track and allowed Kyle Busch to get on the outside of her. Quickly she was caught between a rock and a hard place as everyone went around her on this draft sensitive track, and dropped like a rock all the way back to 20th place. Biggest active driver tool in the sport. 144. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Has she been lapped yet? 145. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good pit call Danica, good call. 146. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica just will not let it go between her and Hornish. If there's any plus side to Sam not getting the #22 ride for 2013, it's that Danica will not feel the need to constantly try to wreck him with him not in the field. Regan Smith 3rd? No Furniture Row, it was not Regan holding you back, it was the other way around. 147. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF (#129), there's another reason why Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson are not loved by the NASCAR fans as much as they should be, particularly Gordon, and that has to do with where they came from, not who they drive for. The long-time fans did not like the idea of someone coming from California and revolutionizing the sport. Sure, part of the reason was because Gordon dethroned Dale Earnhardt, but a bigger reason was becuase he's from California, and the vast majority of the core fans the South just can not connect with people from California, because everytihng's different out there. Trust me, having lived out ther myself for 30 years, I know. And Jimmie Johnson, like Gordon, is from California. The fans in the heart of stock car racing just can't relate to people from there. And if Kyle Larson becomes a big star and a champion, they'll hate him for the same reason, because Larson is also from California. The fans from the core region of stock car racing relate to the grit of their region, not the glitz and glamour of California. After all, it was also with Hendrick that Darrell Waltrip won the one thing that almost never figured to win, the series' Most Popular Driver award, and he won it twice, in 1989 and '90. And you talk about the cheating ways at Hendrick with the crew chiefs. That started with Hendrick's very first crew chief, Harry Hyde, who was always known for pushing the envelope. When hendrick started a second team in 1986, Hyde moved to the #25 team and Gary Nelson, aonther one known for "bending the rules" was put in place, and Nelson promptly won the Daytona 500 with Bodine, while Hyde won nine races with Tim Richmond in '86 and '87, while nearly winning a number of times with Benny Parsons. Nelson was so good at manipulating the rules that in 1992, NASCAR made him their chief inspector to keep everyone else from doing the same. And by the way, Jeff Gordon's greatest years came when Nelson was the chief inspector, so that means that either the #24 team was so clever that they were even fooling Gary Nelson, or that because Nelson was in charge, nobody else could bend the rules to catch up with the #24 team. I'm not sure I've ever mentioned this, but does anyone else think it's ironic that Jeff Gordon's last championship year was also the last year that Nelson was NASCAR's chief inspector (2001)? Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Gordon's not won a title since, because everyone else, including the other Hendrick teams, can get away with far more now than when Nelson was in charge of the inspections. The other Hendrick teams have been caught cheating countless times since Nelson stepped down, but I can think of only one or two times since that Gordon's team has been caught breaking the rules (most notably at Sears Point in 2007). Something to think about, for sure. 148. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was a caution thrown so you know who can get a lucky dog. 149. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica goes a lap down and then a debris caution comes out. Convenient. 150. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gary Nelson was a lot easier fooled than you think. Their illegal suspension in the '95 World 600 was only discovered because they had a wheel fall off. And the "just because they are from California" simply isn't true. We really liked Ernie (a desert rat like Jimmie) and even Harvick seems to have a more passionate following, although that is probably because of the car he drives. 151. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith!!! 152. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tough luck for Johanna. 153. Schroeder51 posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Vicious crash for Johanna Long... 154. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Larson's from California? Damn, I guess I have to hate him then ;) In all seriousness, I don't really care about where drivers are from so much as how they act and behave. Being from Minnesota, I don't exactly have a slew of home state drivers to pull for (off the top of my head, I know of 4 drivers from MN and I think Christian Elder was the most successful), but there are a few drivers from the midwest that I do like, such as Matt Kenseth, Travis Kvapil, Landon Cassill, and Brad Keselowski. I don't like them because they're from the midwest, I like them because they're all solid drivers and good guys that just happen to be from the midwest. Nice job Joey. Way to turn Johanna head-on into the inside wall. Jackass. 155. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Regan Smith!!!" I second that. It'd just be awesome if he could win this race. I know he won't have to worry about a ride for next year, because he will be with JRM, but it'd be cool to see him get a great start. 156. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Regan winning would also prove that JRM has had a driver problem this year, not an equipment problem. 157. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano, f**k you you silver spoon rich kid spoiled brat. Johanna has done way more in racing with what she has then you could ever dream of you piece of shit. You are a failure in life and are only here because of your rich Daddy spending millions of dollars. I hope your time at Penske is a miserable failure which I'm sure it will be. What the f**k did Brad see in this talentless asshole? 158. Schroeder51 posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see I'm not the only one pulling big time for Regan to win the race. I just know Austin Dillon or Kyle Busch will end up being victorious, though... 159. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.17.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last week Joey Logano lost all faith and respect of a four-time champ, Jeff Gordon, for spinning out a car intentionally. This week, Joey does the same to an underfunded Nationwide team. That's pretty hypocritical. 160. joey2448 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Regan kicks Austin's ass on this restart... 161. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congratulations, Johanna. You are officially the newest member of the "NNS Regulars Who Have Been Run Over By Joey Logano". 162. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Austin Dillon has been terrible on restarts all year. 163. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Austin just tried to put Stenhouse in the wall. lol 164. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You are a failure in life" Now that's going too far. It is unfair to call someone a failure in life if they have tried only one occupation and failed at it. 165. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, Austin Dillon is seriously driving like a tool. 166. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Racing against Brian Scott is playing with fire, Ricky. 167. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 165 comments already? I feel like i've dropped in on a party. 168. Schroeder51 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan is going to win in his first Nationwide start in 5 years! Kyle Busch goes winless in the lower NASCAR series for the first time ever. 169. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan Smith is your winner!! 170. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) REGAN SMITH WINS!!! Suck it Furniture Row! 171. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oldschoolnascardude1 why did you stop posting truck races on youtube. 172. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats Regan!!! Enjoy the win! Congrats to Ricky Stenhouse on winning back-to-back Nationwide titles. 173. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. is the 2012 NASCAR Nationwide Series champion. 174. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan!!!! Congrats to Stenhouse. Elliott deserved it more in my opinion, but Stenhouse winning it is way better than if Dillon won. Then we would have to suffer through another Childress-fest. Ugh. 175. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regan! Hell yeah! And I stand by my "failure in life" comment. 176. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good win for Regan. Winless season for Kyle Busch in the Nationwide series. After 4 consecutive seasons with at least 18 wins in the Top 3 series, Kyle Busch is still stuck on 1 with only tomorrow left. 177. Schroeder51 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey Logano is celebrating because he won the owner's championship... 178. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JOEY IS DOING A BURNOUT? JUST FOR THE OWNER'S TITLE? f**k YOU, LOGANO. 179. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Elliott Sadler looks like he's going to cry. 180. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Your 2012 Nationwide Champion, Swervin' Stenhouse! Congrats to Regan Smith and Junior Motorsports. Next year's gonna be great for them. 181. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey's whole life has been built to become the greatest driver ever. Since he "isn't even a scab on Dale Earnhardt's butt" (love that Bobby Hamilton quote), he has failed at his life's goal. 182. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Awesome for Regan. 183. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) cjs3872, You ignoring a couple reasons why Jeff hasn't a won championship since 2001 and Gary Nelson has nothing to do with those two. Ray Evernham was Jeff Crew chief for 3 out of the 4 championships. Ray was a big time cheater back in the day. I don't know if you remembered, but although Robbie Loomis was caught cheating in 2000, he was not know for cheating like Ray Evernham. Robbie was not known as a cheater at Petty Enterprises either. Ray was Jeff's best crew chief and the biggest cheater Jeff had out of his crew chiefs. Jeff Gordon had Jimmie as a teammate, but Jeff had to deal with 2 things besides Jimmine in 2002 and 2003. Jeff Gordon was one of the major names at the time on the race track affected by Dale's death in 2001 besides Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Jeff Burton, Terry Labonte and Ken Schrader as examples. Jeff Gordon was Dale's business partner off the race track and that proved Jeff and Dale were close despite the age difference between the two. Jeff was affected by his divorce in 2002 and 2003. You have to remember that Jeff's divorce was ugly at the time and he was distracted off the track. The women Jeff Gordon had an affair with reviewed stuff about Jeff Gordon in a Playboy issue in 2002 or 2003. That had to be distracting to Jeff also. Jeff was not focused on the racetrack completely for 2 seasons. 184. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know it's championship weekend, but so far we've had two surprise race winners. Wonder who might pull if off tomorrow. Ambrose? Almirola? Trevor? 185. joey2448 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL at Logano doing a burnout for finishing 16th. And GOOD JOB Regan Smith! That was a hell of an on-track battle between the three championship contenders at the end there. And hilarious when Stenhouse's crew was telling him to back off and let the 11 car pass.. 186. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin Lowe, I just haven't had time between work, sports and school. I'll try to get back in the swing of things before long. 187. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano is quite simply a clown. He has officially replaced Bodine as my least favorite Yankee. Never thought that would happen. At least Geoff was a) talented and b) earned his way up the ranks. 188. Schroeder51 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's taken me a while, but I've finally realized everyone who's already said it is completely right. Those cowboy hats the Dillons wear look STUPID! 189. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Austin Dillon and his cowboy hat have worn out their welcome. 190. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right, since I am obviously not the philosophy expert here, I refuse to carry on this conversation. Congrratulations to Regan Smith, Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., and the #18 Joe Gibbs Racing team. 191. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am going to change the subject here and say that I once came on this comment page under the alias of Emperor Palpatine. 192. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A piece of interesting trivia for you, courtesy of David Smith: A two-time Busch/Nationwide champion has never won a Cup title. 193. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Logano is quite simply a clown. He has officially replaced Bodine as my least favorite Yankee." In other news, the Mayans were right :) "At least Geoff was a) talented and b) earned his way up the ranks." Don't forget c) at least Geoff had the decency to complain in interviews, not through social media. 194. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) d) Geoff Bodine wouldn't have done a burnout after finishing 16th. 195. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Logano is quite simply a clown. He has officially replaced Bodine as my least favorite Yankee." Good heavens, the sky is falling!!! 196. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Joey enjoyed that burnout for his team winning the owner's championship, because he'll be Brad's wingman next year. He's not good enough of a driver to be any threat to take top dog status at Roger Penske's team. 197. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am another person to say cjs3872 is not correct about why Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon aren't liked. Ernie Irvin was a driver people liked despite being from California. Kevin Harvick is a liked driver by more race fans than Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon are. Dale Earnhardt Sr. was not the most popular driver when he was alive. Jimmie and Jeff had one of the problems Dale had. Fans thought Dale won too much besides being a dirty driver. Fans didn't like Jeff back in the 1990's because he won too much and Fans don't like Jimmie much for the same reason. It is not a California thing, but its a he wins too much thing. Darrell Waltrip wasn't exactly liked for most of his career either. Darrell was for known for his trash talking and cocky attitude, but Fans also didn't like Darrell because he won too much. 198. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boy, Jack Roush sure has an annoying voice. 199. David posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A little preview of the PEER list that I will post soon, that I'm sure will please all of you: 1. Joey Logano - 5.136 200. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Joey is a punk. I thought Kyle and Kurt were immature, but the 2 Busch brothers actually are very talented. I wonder how long Roger will put up with Joey if he continues his antics. 201. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also something to think about: CCR is a hugely popular band here in the South, and they are from Oakland, CA. Also, the Oakland A's are still pretty popular down here cause North Carolina hero Catfish Hunter played for them for a while. 202. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A two-time Busch/Nationwide champion has never won a Cup title." Here are all seven previous 2-time Busch/Nationwide champions and how well they've done in Cup: Jack Ingram ('82, '85 champion): 19 Cup starts with 1 top five finish. Never ran another race after 1st Busch title. Sam Ard ('83, '84 champion): 1 career Cup lap. Career got cut short after his '84 Rockingham crash. Larry Pearson ('86, '87 champion): 57 Cup starts driving for his dad and Larry Hedrick. Randy LaJoie ('96, '97 champion): 44 Cup starts with 3 top ten finishes. I heard that he "liked having his Sundays off" and preferred the Busch Series. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. ('98, '99 champion): 19 Cup wins and 3 top five points finishes. 2004 Daytona 500 winner. Kevin Harvick ('01, '06 champion): 19 Cup wins and 5 top five points finishes. 2007 Daytona 500 winner. Martin Truex, Jr. ('04, '05 champion): 1 Cup win and 74 top ten finishes. Judging by the seven other 2-time Busch/Nationwide champions, Stenhouse's Cup career will either be hit or miss. I think it'll be more hit and I think he'll have more success than Truex, but I'm not convinced he can achieve what Junior and Harvick have because of his reckless driving style and ability to lose races by shooting himself in the foot. He managed to overcome himself several times this year, but the level of competition in Cup won't allow him to overcome careless acts with good finishes. By the way, just looking at the few stats I put up there, Harvick has had more success in Cup that Junior. Hmmm, never thought of it that way. 203. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think CCR is popular everywhere. I know I could listen to them all day. 204. Baker posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Joey Logano is another driver I really wanted to like when he was first getting into NASCAR and I am fast losing respect for him. Awesome for Regan Smith getting a win! 205. 44andJoe posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >and even Harvick seems to have a more passionate following, although that is probably because of the car he drives. I don't think it's the car (although that certainly didn't/doesn't hurt); Harvick had a pretty decent following even back in his days with Spears in Featherlite Southwest, Winston West, and Trucks. And (as I head down that particular memory lane (and feel old doing so)), here's a Where Are They Now? subject for you: whatever happened to Lance Hooper? 206. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, There is two things you forgot about Jack Ingram. Jack already was 45 going on 46 when he a Busch series title in 1982. That 2nd thing is Jack Ingram actually won more than 2 titles in the Busch series. Jack won 3 Late Model Sportsman Championships in 1972,1973,1974. Late Model Sportsman division actually is what the Busch Series was known as before 1982. That means Jack was a lifer in the lower leagues in NASCAR before 1982. 207. joey2448 posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boy that championship celebration looks pretty subdued. I hate it, because I bet that the media and NASCAR officials make it impossible for these guys to properly celebrate because everyone needs to be lined up for interviews, and this guy needs to stand here and that guy needs to stand there, etc.. Also, I wonder if the celebration is subdued because Ricky was ignoring his crew chief when he was telling him to stop racing the 11 car? Just something to ponder on. 208. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I know that Ingram was a 3-time Late Model Sportsman Division champion before it became the present-day Busch/Nationwide Series and was a career 2nd-tier driver. I was just looking at his Cup stats and how he compared with other 2-time Busch Series champions. I do think that he and Sam Ard were the greatest 2nd-tier NASCAR drivers of all-time. 209. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) a 16th place car all race long? now THERE's the nationwide joey logano we all know and love. looked like he was doing his best impression of cup series joey logano. 210. Kenny posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why all the hate on AD? I like him and glade he got ROTY and I hope like hell he'l be the champ next year :) 211. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I do think that he and Sam Ard were the greatest 2nd-tier NASCAR drivers of all-time." Uh-Uh Curtis Turner in the Convertible division is the best ever 2nd-tier driver. 212. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,forget what I said, because you meant 2nd-tier only and I just now realised. 213. 44andJoe posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #210 - Because it's OK when a "small" team supports the team owner's family driver(s), but when RCR does it, it's nepotism. No, I can't figure that one out either. 214. Kenny posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just wtf dose nepotism mean anyway? 215. 18fan posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse said he keyed the mic for the last 10 laps of the race because he was tired of his spotter Mike Calinoff telling him to back off. 216. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) nep-o-tism noun - patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics. ex: Richard Childress Racing's favoritism towards Austin and Ty Dillon, Richard's grandsons, is a great example of nepotism. 217. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't dislike Austin because he's Richard Childress' grandson. I dislike him because he's a whiner, a tool (complete with a fake smile and a cowboy hate), and seems to think that he's carrying on the #3's legacy that Pop-Pop started. 218. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I stole this from somehwere else. "If he should win the Sprint Cup title, Brad Keselowski would be the first Michigan native to do so. Keselowski, 28, also would be the first Cup champion born after Richard Petty won his seventh and final championship (1979) and after Dale Earnhardt won his first (1980)." 219. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I agree that the divorce had his mind off track for a couple of seasons, but the reason I say that Nelson's moving on had something to do with the decline in his relative performance had something to do with what the other teams could try and get away with, because Nelson was no longer chief inspector. And as I also mentioned, in the years since Nelson left, which would not include that situation at Richmond in 2000 by the way, Gordon's team has been caught cheating nomore than once or twice, the one notable occasion being at Sears Point in 2007, while even the other Hendrick teams have habitually ran afoul of the rulebook. And that 2000 situation came not long after Gordon criticized NASCAR about the safety of the cars, so that might have been payback, because they ran that carburetor most of the year, and it had passed inspection every time. And Ernie Irvan was never a popular driver until his accident at Michigan in 1994. In fact, from 1990-'93, he might have been the most unpopular driver in the sport, but his neal-fatal accident at Michigan in August of 1994 changed all that. He was unpopular for the same reason Earnhardt was, and that was that he was wild and often ran over people. In fact, Neil Bonnett might very well be alive today if not for what Irvan did at Darlington in 1990, starting a crash while racing the leaders when he was nine laps down. That accident began the chain of events that eventually led to Bonnett's death at Daytona in 1994. Gordon and Johnson have been roundly disliked because they brought the image of California with them to the sport, and changed it, for better or worse, and those from the core area of the sport didn't like it, and still don't. And Paul, you listed the consecutive champions of the Nationwide Series, and you mentioned that Randy LaJoie liked having Sundays off, so he preferred the Nationwide Series. Let's also not forget that horific crash he had early in his carer in one of the qualifying races for the Daytona 500 in 1984, when his car got airborne and the bottom of his car hit the inner wall flush. that might have goten him turned off on the Cup Series, as well. But here's something. Other than Dale Earnhardt, Jr., the other consecutive championship winners in that series have won a total of ONE Cup race, and that was Martin Truex, Jr. at Dover, on a day where that's forgotten because Bill France, Jr. died on that very day. And although Mike Kelley is losing Stenhouse next year, he's going to be happy to have a driver next year that actually races intelligently, because Stenhouse tried every way he knows how to lose the championship in the last 25 laps. He even had his spotter practically yelling at him to let Brian Scott go, and he still wouldn't. Kelley is going to reailze that he's going to have a driver next year that isn't going to take unnecessary risks, and thus not crash as often. For long-time IndyCar fans, the change from Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. to Trevor Bayne in the #6 NNS car will almost be like replacing Mario Andretti with Al Unser, meaning that Kelley's going to go from the brashest, most aggresive driver to one that's vastly more conservative, but one that you could almost always count on being there at the finish. They may even have time to build more cars at the the Roush-Fenway Nationwide team, because they're not going to have nearly as many wrecked cars to repair. In Bayne, Kelley's also going to have a driver that gives information, doesn't act arrogant over the radio, and is actually willing to accept advice and information from his crew, instead of brushing it off. As I said, they won't likely be making very many trips to victory lane, but they won't be repairing very many wrecked cars, either, because Bayne rarely ever crashes, unless it's caused by someone else. But of course, next year's Nationwide Series might also have a great case of malaise and blase to it because most of the drivers battling for the championship are of the conservative variety. Along with Bayne, you have Regan Smith, Austin Dillon, Elliott Sadler, Brian Vickers, Sam Hornish, Jr., and others, and almost every one of them is a conservative driver, meaning there won't be nearly as many races won by non-Cup drivers next year as there were this year. And as for Joey Logano's antics, trust me, Joe Gibbs might have put up with it, but I can tell anyone reading this that, having watched racing for over 20 years that Roger Penske will not put up with it for very long, because Penske has always held his drivers up to the highest standard, and he'll let Logano know that any antics out of bounds won't be tolerated, and ask anyone that's worked for Penske and they'll tell you the same thing. He demands that the drivers give it their best, but also demands that they act respectfully. He's always been a caring car owner, which was best displayed in 1972 at Michigan when he withdrew Gary Bettenhausen from an IndyCar race there so he could be with his brother Merle after the crash that cost him an arm, but he's always been demanding, as well. Don't believe me? Just ask Tom Sneva, who was fired after winning two consecutive championships for him in 1977 and 78, because he did not win enough races, and didn't win any races at all in that 1978 championship season. 220. Daniel posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #133, don't forget that it's also the reason Baker-Curb Racing shut down as it cost them their Red Man sponsorship and they couldn't get a new one. 221. Kenny posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @216 thank you :) 222. Paul posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, that's one of the many reasons why I don't like Stenhouse. I'll be happy next year once a respectful driver like Trevor Bayne is in that car. Mike Kelley looked pretty sad after the race because he and Ricky won't be together anymore, but he should be really happy next year teaming with Trevor. 223. murb posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stenhouse said he keyed the mic for the last 10 laps of the race because he was tired of his spotter Mike Calinoff telling him to back off." What a dick move. The thing I've never liked about him is that he already acts like he's an elite Cup driver just because he has this insane car control and ability to go fast. He doesn't listen to his crew chief or spotter when he needs to (as shown in this race), and it just looks as if he's getting a head start on his Cup ego. He's lucky he won't have Fenning as his crew chief, because I'd be willing to bet that he wouldn't put up with Stenhouse's shenanigans. 224. JG24FanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Roger Penske was asked what racing driver Brad K. reminds him of,and Penske answered Rick Mears. 225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, in less than 24 hours time I will either be in the ultimate celebration or experiencing ultimate heartbreak. No middle ground. Either way, I just bought a 24 ounce can of Miller Lite to either drink in celebration or use to drown away my sorrows. 226. Smiff_2 posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I bought a 12 pack! lol 227. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.17.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tomorrow's race be the most important championship battle I will have experienced in a while, because I haven't truly wanted one of the contenders to win it since Mark in 2009 (and since he has always been too nice on the racetrack, it was better to not get my hopes up). 228. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trust me murb, Fennig wouldn't. After all, he was brouht up to NASCAR's highest ranks by none other than Bobby Allison, and Fennig seems to have that Allison-like personality of not wantng to be messed with. Remember his reaction to Mark Martin being set up by Dale Jarrett late in the 2000 Daytona 500? He was not happy at all. Might that be a reason why Fennig was moved from the #17 car to the #99 next year? And then after the race, when he was being interviewed, Stenhouse said that he wasn't concerned about racing around other cars, as if he knew nothing was going to happen, even after nearly being taken to the wall by Austin Dillon when Dillon was taking evasive action when Sam Hornish, Jr. slowed up right in front of him, and then racing Brian Scott for no reason at all, and then apparently keying his mic, effectively cutting off his spotter, which was completely uncalled for. I know this. As hard as he raced, Dale Earnhardt would never have done any of those things, because he would never have been racing those guys so hard for no reason in the first place. Now you see why I've said there's a good possibility that Stenhouse's rookie season in Cup next year may be a total train wreck, because he won't listen to anybody, even if it's for his own good. As I've said, Mike Kelly is going to enjoy having Trevor Bayne as his driver, because he'll give good information, while actually listening to advice from his pit crew and spotter. It's also why he needs to learn the ropes of the Cup series from a team like the Wood Brothers. Just ask the guy he's beat for the Nationwide Series title the last two year, because Elliott Sadler drove for the Wood Brothers for four years, and he'll tell you that he learned an immeasurable amount about the sport from them. That's why I've said that Stenhouse should be the one to go to the #21 car part-time, with Trevor Bayne, or some other experienced driver moving on to the #17 car. but what Stenhouse did tonight may also prove my theory right about Roush not giving him the #6 Cup car, because Roush may not feel that Stenhouse can live up to what Mark Martin did in and out of that car in his 19 years at Roush, and that Roush may be saving the #6 itself for Bayne, because he feels that Bayne may be the true heir to Mark Martin as the next long-time driver of his #6 Cup car. And if that's the case, we saw a clasic reason why tonight. Although Stenhouse doesn't figure to be doing the legacy of the #17 car any favors either, since that number has always had drivers that were conservative, and always finished races, won big races, and in the case of Pearson and Kenseth, championships. Somehow, I don't think Stenhouse fits the mold of David Pearson, Darrell Waltrip, or Matt Kenseth to continue the legacy of the #17 car, either. 229. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) cjs3872, You missed my point like you do to towards people time to time with this one on cheating. While I was aware of Gary Nelson being the chief Inspector in 2000, Robbie Loomis was not know as cheating crew chief despite Richmond of 2000 dating back to Robbie's Days at Petty Enterprises as the crew chief of the 43 cars. Ray in his day as crew chief was big time cheater despite being caught once one was know to really stretch out the rules such as T-Rex and the illegal suspension at Charlotte. Ray and Hendrick was accused of cheating by Jack Roush in 1998. Remember Chad learned under Ray Evernham before doing to DEI for 1998. The fact is Ray got away with a lot, but Robbie Loomis wasn't that type of a crew chief before going to Hendrick. 230. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is true that Chad got his start from working on his Dad's cars, but Chad even learned more from Ray starting in 1993 to 1997. 231. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, of course Loomis was never known for cheating, and it was because of his apprenticeship under Dale Inman at Petty Enterprises. As far as I know, Loomis was only caught twice in nearly six full years as Jeff Gordn's crew chief with a rules infraction. The first was that celebrated incident at Richmond, which I still have doubts about the validity of, and the second occurred in the second race of the following year at Rockingham, when Gordon's car was found to be too low in post-race inspection. Loomis was only fined, as NASCAR was not, at that time, taking points away for such infractions. And also, I assume you're referring to the 1995 Charlotte SpeedWeeks when you refer to the suspension infraction. Actually, it was the right front hub that was illegal, or non-approved (NASCAR never said it was flat-out illegal) after the Coca-Cola 600 incident where his right front literally came off. And you mention the "T-Rex" car. Sure they read the rulebook when the built that car, but there was nothing illegal about it when it raced. But fearing that it would obsolete the existing cars, NASCAR rewrote the rules, effectively making it illegal after the 1997 All-Star Race. In fact, Gary Nelson gave kudos to the creative thinking behind that car. And although I have questions about the legality concerning the cars Jeff Gordon drove in the second half of the 1998 season, nothing was ever proven to be against the rules, nor was anything that Ray Evernham did in the second half of that season ever found to be against the rules. Again, although I think they were doing something to the cars that they weren't supposed to be doing, nothing was ever found, so Evernham must be given the benefit of the doubt here. In fact, the incident at Charlotte in 1995 was the ONLY time Evernham was ever caught with something on the car that wasn't supposed to be there in nearly seven years as Jeff Gordon's crew chief. And let's also remember that Roush isn't exactly known for fair play, either, and is also known for having sour grapes when he loses. On the other hand, Knaus has been caught at least eight times with stuff that's not supposed to be on the cars. That's right, EIGHT. That means one of two things. Either he's been cheating most of his career (which I think is the case), or he's a terrible cheater to have been caught that many times, because I can't recall anyone ever getting caught that many times. That's almost one infraction per season as Jimmie Johnson's crew chief, and that's why Johnson's legacy will forever be shrouded as long as Chad Knaus remains his crew chief. 232. Eric posted: 11.17.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, It is more of Chad being a bad cheater. I am saying that while Chad cheats like crazy, Junior Johnson was notorious a cheater and was more clever for getting away with it. While Junior Johnson did get caught by NASCAR like in 1991, Junior Johnson got away with a lot of cheating. I think the Junior Johnson organization got away with even more cheating than Chad did. People to this day think Darrell Waltrip blow up his car on purpose for the 1985 Winston after he won it because there was something illegal. Andy Petree even said a few years ago on ESPN that when he was at Junior Johnson's that people from the organization distracted the inspectors for post-race inspection and got illegal stuff out of the car without the inspector noticing. That means the 11 team was doing that in 1981 since Andy got his first cup racing job as a Tire Changer for Junior Johnson in that year. It is the year that Darrell Waltrip won the first of his 3 championships. 233. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.17.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And also, I assume you're referring to the 1995 Charlotte SpeedWeeks when you refer to the suspension infraction. Actually, it was the right front hub that was illegal, or non-approved (NASCAR never said it was flat-out illegal) after the Coca-Cola 600 incident where his right front literally came off." Considering Evernham was hit with, at the time, a fine that shattered the previous record, I'd say it was a lot more than an innocent "unapproved" part. "The first was that celebrated incident at Richmond, which I still have doubts about the validity of" 100 points is a huge penalty. I'd say it was definitely illegal if they are gonna take that many points away. Remember, in 1993 in the week of the Firecracker 400, the HMS #25 car had a carb that was so illegal, NASCAR was seriously considering banning that car, that team, and Schrader for a few weeks, or at least pulling a Junior Johnson in 1991 deal (anyone else remember the Flossie Johnson owned #97 Budweiser Ford?). 234. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes Eric, the fact that Knaus has gotten caught eight times may prove that theory, and you're also correct about Junior Johnson being perhaps the bigest cheater in the sport's history, if Smokey Yunick wasn't. They had so many things in their bags of tricks that it was almost impossible for the inspectors to find out what they were doing. But also remember that the technology and the means to properly inspect the cars were light years behind what they are now. And NASCAR wasn't above letting a car they knew was illegal compete on occasion back in the old days, if it suited them. Such a case occurred in the 1965 World 600 at Charlotte, when Ford was the only manufacturer actively involved in the sport. NASCAR let a Chevrolet they knew was illegal compete in the World 600 that year, just so that there would be something other than a Chervolet worth noticing. The guys back then were so much more clever than the inspectors, it wasn't funny. One such man was car owner Mario Rossi. He never found a way of cheating he didn't like, and when he became the crew chief for DiGard Racing in the mid-70s, he was one of those involved in the nitrous oxide scandal that rocked SpeedWeeks in 1976. He even told the NASCAR officials where to find the extra lines he had installed in Darrell Waltrip's car. ther that was involved in a cheating scandal during SpeedWeeks that year was Harry Hyde, who later became the first crew chief for Hendrick Motorsports. Hyde had installed a moveable air deflector in the car driven by Dave Marcis, and their qualifying time, which would have given Marcis the pole for the Daytona 500 that year after A.J. Foyt and Marcis both had their times disallowed, was disallowed, as well. And of course, A.J. Foyt was probably one of the biggest cheaters in motorsports history, though that was mostly outside of NASCAR. He was suspected for using nitrous oxide, especially to qualify, but I don't think it was above him to use it in the race, especially the Indianapolis 500. There were many times where he didn't seem to be competitve in practice, but when it came time to qualify, he'd put it up front, and many people believe he was uing nitrous oxide, or something else illegal to qualify. So even a number the most respected competitors in racing history often cheated. That's what makes what the Wood Brothers were able to accomplish over the years all the more remarkable, because there was never even a hint of cheating on their part when they were constant front runners in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s. Even Holman-Moody, who was so much against cheating that Waddell Wilson carried that for the rest of his career and never was seriously accused of cheating, used an oversized restrictor plate when David Pearson won one of the qualifying races for the 1971 Daytona 500. The infraction was found the day before the 500 itself, but because it could not be proven he used it in the qualifying race itself, the win stood, though crew chief Jake elder was fined for the infraction. 235. cjs3872 posted: 11.17.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes DSFF, 100 points is a big penaty, and it actually cost them a position in the points at the end of the season (from eighth to ninth, I believe). But they had been using that carburetor a good chunk of that season, and it always passed inspection. But Jeff Gordon made some comments criticizing NASCAR regarding the safety of the cars not long before that race. Remember that race followed the Loudon restrictor plate disaster when Jeff Burton led every lap. I don't think NASCAR was too happy about the comments and wanted to make an example of Gordon and failed him to send that message. That's why I'm afraid about what might happen to Brad Keselowski tomorrow if his car's inspected after the race, given his harsh comments aimed toward both the competitors and NASCAR itself after last week's race at Phoenix. They may want to make an example of and send a message to Brad to not criticize NASCAR so bluntly after a race. nd what better way to send that message than by potentially costing Brad the championship. Also remember that if Brad wins the title, the make he's representing (Dodge) won't be around next year, and I'm not sure NASCAR wants a champion driving a car make that they won't be able to advertise next year. 236. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 10 in Nationwide PEER: *Drivers must have competed in at least six races 1. Joey Logano - 5.136 2. Kurt Busch - 4.483 3. Kevin Harvick - 3.885 4. Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. - 3.485 5. Kasey Kahne - 3.183 6. Paul Menard - 3.143 7. Denny Hamlin - 3.000 8. Elliott Sadler - 2.924 9. Austin Dillon - 2.879 10. Michael McDowell - 2.750 237. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm guessing all seven of those Cup drivers (obviously McDowell) achieved higher PEER ratings in Nationwide than they did Cup. I would love to see what Joey's Cup PEER rating was. I'd be shocked if it was one-third of his Nationwide rating. 238. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been going through David Smith's tweets regarding 2012 Nationwide PEER ratings, and here's what I've found: - Stenhouse jumped up almost a full point from last year (2.529 to 3.485), so he was far more deserving of the title this year based on performance than last year. By the way, I consider last year's Nationwide title battle not really a "does anybody want this championship?" year, but more of a "nobody deserves this championship" year. This year, Stenhouse and Sadler clearly were deserving of it. - Both rookie driver Jason Bowles (1.303) and owner/driver Jeremy Clements (1.227) finished year as "serviceable" drivers. Both are highly underrated and are deserving of a break. - Although he didn't post their ratings, veterans Mike Bliss and Joe Nemechek were both rated as "serviceable", with Bliss slightly higher. - Johanna Long was "serviceable" (1.119), Danica Patrick was "replacement level" (0.621). Let this end the Johanna/Danica debate because, quite frankly, there is no debate. Johanna is far and away better than NASCAR's princess. - Even though he finished lower in the points than the previous two seasons, Justin Allgaier scored his highest PEER rating with 2.341. I seriously question this because none of his 2012 stats were career highs, plus he was far more crash prone than years prior. 239. BON GORDON posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah I'm late. It's 4:12 in the morning. Congrats to James Buescher and Ricky Stenhouse on their championship seasons. Im not watching the race today. I'm too nervous. I don't wanna be mad if someone takes Jeff out, or if Johnson wins the title. I have it scheduled for recording though just in case. I like Jimmie Johnson as a person but goodness I'm with DaleSrFanForever and a good majority of the folks out there that want Brad Keselowski to win this championship. He's gonna be a multiple champion no doubt in my mind. Extremely talented. Beleive it or not I also agree with DaleSrFanForever in post #129. Those damn tires were over 100 laps old. Before that restart I knew what was coming. And Hendrick of all people know that there's never any guarentees in racing. They both shoulda pitted and could have earned Top five finishes instead. However, Jeff is still the man in my book and Rick loves Jeff like a son and is entitled to defend his driver whether he's right or wrong. I think Jeff will be strong but I also think Martin Truex Jr. will also be strong. It's kinda ironic that they are "fighting" for tenth in points as well. Tenth may not be much to most but you better believe Truex and Michael Waltrip wanna beat Gordon more than ever for that tenth spot in points this year. I say Gordon gets it and I say that Keselowski is your 2012 NASCAR Sprint Cup Champion. Johnson puts up a fight but Keselowski runs Top 7 all race. 240. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem, BON GORDON, with Gordon and Johnson at the spring Martinsville race was this. If they had pitted, most eveyone else would probably have stayed out, and then they would have been buried deep in the field. So even with fresh tires, they would never have really been able to use them. They made the only decision they could have made, under the circumstances. Clint Bowyer made an idiotic move that never had a chance of working, and that's what I called it then, and it not only cost the Hendrick cars, but Bowyer as well. But if Gordon and Johnson had pitted, they would likely have been ninth, tenth, 11th, or 12th (there were only 12 cars on the lead lap at the time, if I remember right), so they would have had nowhere to go, even with fresh tires. So it was one of those situations where, whatever the Hendrick cars did, the rest of the field was going to do the opposite, so their only chance of winning was to stay out, and it might have worked if Bowyer hadn't made such a stupid move. 241. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Few hours more. I haven't been this excited since well last year at homestead. I'm actually going to watch the race this year so I'm pumped. Last year I couldn't bring myself to watch the race bc I feel like I am a curse on Stewart and he runs better when I cannot watch. I had friend text me and tell me if he won or not then watched the race on DVR lol 242. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Come on, people, show your support of the USA and compete in this weeks F1 picks and get a jump start on 2013 by picking in Draco's and 24over48's Cup predictions. 243. jabber1990 posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) really ESPN do you really need a 90 minute prerace show? I guess I shouldn't complain cause at least ESPN is pretending to care about NASCAR 244. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What other options did Clint have? He had new tires with a pack full of cars with new tires behind him and he was behind two cars with 100 lap tires on. He had two options: 1) Make a quick move to get past them, and hope you don't drive in a little too hard (he did, far from idiotic) or 2) Don't try to pass them immediately, run their slower pace, and get passed like you are standing still. Idiotic? Not even close. Jimmie and Jeff were roasted ducks. Period. But of course those two along with Rick bitched and whined like little girls cause they were going for win #200 which apparently means the rest of the racing world is supposed to be on hold, and they were at Martinsville which is apparently their domain, everyone else is supposed to just roll over for them. What a crock. And again, he just needs to be happy he wasn't banned from NASCAR in the late 90's after his mail fraud felony like every other major sport would have done. 245. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No DSFF, what he should have done if he was that much faster was to follow Jeff through turns one and two, touching his bumper, which would have gotten him by Johnson, then made the move around Gordon on the final lap, or even turns three and four coming to the white flag. Had he done that, he would still have won the race without wrecking half the cars on the lead lap. That three-wide move was never going to work there. If he had tried it at a track like Texas or Charlotte, it might have worked, but it was never going to work at Martinsville. But you are right, Jeff and Jimmie were sitting ducks on that restart. But as I said, that was their only chance at victory, or even a top five finish because had they pitted, most everyone else would have stayed out, and they would have been cooked anyway. 246. ch posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So now in the Truck Series, the minimum age of a driver on road courses and tracks 1.1 miles or less is now 16. I think this is a really bad idea to have kids that young in one of the top 3 series. 247. Eric posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, NASCAR couldn't ban Rick Hendrick after his mail fraud because they allowed Junior Johnson to race and own his race teams after his arrest. Junior Johnson went to jail for 1 year in the 1950's for moonshine despite not being caught transporting bootleg liquor. 248. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, did you even watch the post-race interviews from Martinsville, or are you just assuming that Jeff Gordon was bitching and whining because "that's what he always does"? He did his interview after he spoke to Clint (who as it turns out was lying to him about being shoved by Ryan Newman) and he was all smiles and wasn't blaming anybody for what happened out there. Plus, he didn't even mention Hendrick's 200th win in his interview. Jeff have every right to be upset after the race after David Reutimann brought out the last caution and Clint Bowyer divebombed him, but he wasn't because he isn't the whiner that you make him out to be. As a matter of fact, neither he or Jimmie Johnson had hard feelings for Reuti or Tommy Baldwin after the race because they knew what they were trying to accomplish what with the top 35 rule, and were the only drivers to console with them after the race. On the other hand, both Clint Bowyer and Dale Earnhardt, Jr. were throwing Reuti under the bus for stopping on the race track. Clint's interview disgusted me because he knew that his divebomb was a stupid move in retrospect, but put all the blame on Reuti for bringing out the caution, and used him as a diversion. The way that he entered the corner was terrible and 100% his fault because he was all the way down next to the inside wall, and didn't reduce his speed at the correct braking point. The lower you are on the track when entering the corner, the the earlier you have to reduce your speed, and Clint entered the corner as if the corner wasn't even there. In fact, he was lower on the track at Martinsville than Ricky Rudd was at North Wilkesboro '89 when he got into Dale, and yet you blame Rudd for his incident, but you give Bowyer a pass for his because, as you say, "where's he gonna go?". And then of course the press goes and talks to Junior like they do for every race and he lets the world know what he thought of the situation, and like the loyal sheep that they are the media runs off of what Junior said without even talking to Reuti or Tommy about it. Hell, even Brad was talking about it after the race. So why is it okay for Brad to talk about this incident a week after the fact, but you shit on Gordon for not bringing it up once? Personal bias perhaps? Anyways, I stand by my point I made before that Clint Bowyer is the biggest whiner in NASCAR. From bitching about David Stremme (a Nationwide driver) racing him to hard in a Nationwide race at Nashville '08, to blaming Montoya for his own mistake at Atlanta '11 that knocked him out of Chase contention, to putting the blame on Reuti at Martinsville this spring, to acting like the victim when in fact he was the instigator at Phoenix last week (I've seen acts of whining, but I can't remember which races they were from), he is the biggest whiner in NASCAR. And then if you add-in his non-stop 5-hour Energy commercials, fake tan, bleached hair (although I'm not sure if he still does that), and overall fake personality, I'd go as far as to say that he is the biggest douchebag in NASCAR. By the way, I have thought of this before last week, as I've made numerous comments denouncing Clint on this board. 249. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think NASCAR raising the minimum age requirement on certain tracks in the Truck Series is going to hurt the ARCA Series. ARCA currently allows drivers between ages 16 and 18 to race on certain tracks, and since the Truck and ARCA Series ave similar costs, some of those drivers may try to go straight to the Truck Series because of the higher prestige. 250. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Raising the minimum age requirement, Paul? I think you mean lowering the minimum age requirement, because the last time I checked, 16 was a lower number than 18. And that's just for tracks 1 mile and shorter in length. And what you said the the prior post about Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson consoling with Tommy Baldwin and David Reutimann at the spring race at Martinsville, while Dale, Jr. and Clint Bowyer threw them under the bus, shows just what classy people Gordon and Johnson are, and why they're both champions of the highest order, and not just on the track, but off it as well. And when Brad Keselowski was fined, supposedly because of having a cell phone in his car, one man that's not convinced that's the whole story is King Richard himself, who today said that the cell phone "rule" is one that NASCAR made up as it went along. That inclines me to believe that he thinks the fine was for wha he said in the press conference after the race at Phoenix. And if I had to trust the opinion of Brian France or Richard Petty, I'd choose Petty in a heartbeat. And by the way, it's not a very good thing when the face of NASCAR, and Richard Petty will always be that, is calling out NASCAR for some of it's decisions, and not believing why they're being made. And when King Richard speaks, everybody should listen, including the men who run things. 251. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had Bowyer done that, Newman would have made the second row 3 wide and Clint would have lost big. It is a short track and following the much slower cars would be a race losing move. And Paul, the bitching and whining I am speaking of is from the DuPont 20th anniversary press conference when they basically bemoaned the fact Clint didn't roll over for them so they could get their 200th win at Martinsville. That sense of entitlement is pure bullshit. 252. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just realized something. Remember Martinsville in the spring? Everybody was all over David Reutimann for causing a caution and subsequently causing the 24 and 48 to wreck. But nobody has said anything about Danica keeping a car leaking oil out onto the track to cause a huge wreck at the end of last week's race. I'm saying media wise. 253. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.18.2012 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Take a chill pill Jase 254. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Raising the minimum age requirement, Paul? I think you mean lowering the minimum age requirement, because the last time I checked, 16 was a lower number than 18." I guess that's what I get for making a comment right when I wake up. Obviously I meant to say "lowering the minimum age requirement", as cjs pointed out. And yes, both Jeff and Jimmie are the epitome of class in NASCAR, and it's only fitting that they hold the most championships among active drivers. It's one thing to have a championship, like Junior and Bowyer have in the Nationwide Series, but it's another thing to be a champion, which Jeff and Jimmie are. In fact, when Tommy Baldwin showed up on Wind Tunnel back in the spring, the first thing he did was thank Jeff and Jimmie on their professionalism after the Martinsville race because they had the most to be upset about following that race, and were pleasantly not pointing the finger of blame towards anyone. On the other hand, Clint, Junior, and Brad were all throwing Reuti under the bus, not understanding why he stayed out because they never had to deal with the top 35 rule like Reuti has this year. Clint has no shame after making the error that wrecked him and the leaders, and then diverging to attention towards Reuti. The sad thing is that it worked and the next week the media focused on Reuti stopping on the track as the reason why Jeff and Jimmie got wrecked than they were about Clint's divebomb that actually wrecked the leaders out of the win. Maybe Clint's boss' lack of shame rubbed off on him this year because I've noticed a significant attitude change out of him all season, with the most noticeable incidents being at Martinsville and Phoenix. When he was at RCR, he reminded me of a younger Jeff Burton, probably because he and Burton were teammates for six years and had similar demeanors. But for whatever reason, he has changed this season to the point where I find him to be unbearable and difficult to like. I don't think it's because success went to his head, because he's acted this way even before he won a race for MWR. 255. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We don't want you turning into the Warrior now LOL. 256. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love the pic of Dale in 1980. Even he wasn't immune to the 70's porn star look of the day. And what about that rainbow at the track? Irony. Oh yeah. Off in the distance in the clouds we see what Gordon once was. Down on Earth we see the shell that is left. 257. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am making a bet between CJS and DSFF If Brad wins the title then CJS has to do at least one Backflip and if JJ wins the title DSFF owes CJS 48 bucks. 258. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lord Lowe, they just talked about what we were talking about. 259. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DAMN, I am glad to not have to hear Kid Rock promoting NASCAR again after this race is over...Who do you think ESPN will come up with that's worse next year? 260. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Probably Blake Shelton, especially since he and Clint are good friends. 261. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, did you guys see Clint? Jeff is gonna get wrecked today. 262. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I. Am. So. Tired. Of. Kid. Rock. 263. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldn't it be great if there was no commentary during the race just the sounds of the cars going around the track and the roar of the crowd none of that BSPN nonsense. 264. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I was tired of Kid Rock after the first 4 seconds of bawitdaba the first time I heard it over a decade ago. 265. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh, are we seriously still talking about the Gordon - Bowyer bullshit? I swear, whenever one of those two is shown on the broadcast today, I will be going after the mute button. I'm physically sick of seeing and hearing about those two. 266. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm sick of it too....unless it boils over to a large scale brawl between Hendrick and Waltrip's entire teams. 267. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, I got three letters for you: M-R-N. No BSPN bullshit, just racing. 268. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Benjamin Lowe, NBC tried that late in the in 1980 NFL season with a Jets-Dolphins game in Miami as an experiment, since neither team was going anywhere in 1980. They broadcast that game with no commentators at all, and it was a disaster. 269. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Fords and Toyotas are the class of the field so far. 270. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, I hear you Baker. It would be interesting to see Michael just flip out and start charging towards Rick. I can totally see it happening, given Mikey's low brain power and bad decision making (you know, like when he cut off that motorcyclist when he was drunk or whatever). With Jimmy Fenning coming over next year, I'm expecting Carl to have a rebound year. I definitely think that he will be Roush's main focus, which means that Biffle will be on the backburner, and Stenhouse will most likely have trouble adjusting to the Cup environment. But I'm expecting Carl to be back to his old form. 271. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "murb, I got three letters for you: M-R-N. No BSPN bullshit, just racing." Heck yeah!!! 272. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The F1 race at Austin is one of the three best races of the season. Fernando is still a genius running in 3rd. Lewis passed Sebastian, and Vettel bitched, and he still has never won a race below from below third on the grid. Best racing day of the year! 273. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, you're right Paul, MRN is way better. I would listen to it, but I sort of like being able to make fun of BSPN. They give me so many reasons to. 274. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I bet Gordon doesn't pass Johnson. 275. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just flipped back to the U.S. Grand Prix and Lewis Hamilton has taken the lead away from Vettel. Yes! 276. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell, I'd prefer no commentary over BSPN's commentary OR Fox's commentary featuring Darrell Simpson...I mean Darrell Waltrip. 277. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pastor Maldonado!! 278. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Kyle Busch is picking up exactly where he left off last week. 279. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lewis Hamilton becomes the first Formula One driver to win the U.S. Grand Prix at two different tracks (Indy, Austin) since Ayrton Senna (Detroit, Phoenix). Vettel beat Alonso by about 37 seconds for 2nd place. 280. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Vettel beat Alonso by about 37 seconds for 2nd place." That's easy to do when Vettel is racing and Alonso was cruising. 281. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lewis ran a brilliant race to beat the "unstoppable" Newey/Red-Rull cars. 282. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon doing his usual wingman routine. 283. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gordon doing his usual wingman routine." He wins the Championship as an owner for the 6th time if Johnson wins it. 284. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle is Brad's best friend right now. 285. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My only wish is in the last 40 laps there is a caution to take fuel mileage out of the equation. Patiently opportunistic is the best approach for Brad right now. 286. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I missed the start of the race because my Browns are on. Did Brad Keselowski get to lead a lap at the beginning or no? 287. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No. 288. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He didn't have a very good start. Ambrose got ahead and Edwards quickly got around him as well. 289. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad laid back on the restart because he was told that Marcos Ambrose would have to cross the line first, and I don't think he wanted to risk beating Ambrose to the line and getting a penalty. 290. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow! A BS debris caution! 291. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution comes out just as Carl Edwards was closing in on Kyle. 292. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BS debris caution. 293. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They have to have at least one of those in almost every race, don't they. 294. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Slow pit stop for Brad. 295. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad has a slow pit stop and loses numerous positions. 296. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does the Sprint Cup Championship trophy have to be so damn small? Half the race trophies are bigger than the championship trophy! I just don't understand why that is. I'd think since you won the championship, you'd get a REALLY big trophy for it... 297. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the trophy looks stupid. 298. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch is having engine problems AGAIN. 299. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor Bayne made contact with the wall. No caution. 300. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What hasn't happened to Kyle this season, ever since oilgate at the Glen he just has no luck. 301. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh crap. Clint Bowyer and Jeff Gordon are running back to back on the track. Guess what BSPN will remind us of... 302. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm never going to get to watch this race because my idiot team just gave Dallas free yards all the way down the field to let them kick a tying FG and put us into overtime. 303. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That Winston Cup trophy was huge and beautiful. I remember Gordon could never even pick it up all the way. 304. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon passes Bowyer safely... 305. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah and Carl Edwards had trouble lifting the puny Busch Series trophy in '07. What's your point? 306. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They need to bring that Winston Cup trophy. Now THAT was a trophy worth winning. 307. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Bring it BACK, of course. 308. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor just hit the wall again and came to pit road. What's going on with him today? 309. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NO!!!!!!! 310. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes! Kid Rock is in studio. Channel changed. 311. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go away Kid Rock. 312. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DAMMIT, BSPN, NO MORE KID ROCK!!! 313. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good to see a relevent respectable star like Kid Rock in the booth, lets listen in and what intellegent things he has to say. 314. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Perhaps Kid Rock is the reason Mitt Romney lost. Annoyed everybody away from voting for him. 315. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love how they have to go to split screen so we can see Kid Rock talking. LOVE IT, BSPN. 316. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why is Johnson Bademosi covering Dez Bryant? Dude has never seen snaps on defense until this quarter. Our coaching has got to be the worst coaching in the entire NFL. 317. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry guys wrong board! 318. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No worries Baker. I'm flipping back between the race and the Browns vs. Cowboys game. I hope the Browns win so I don't have to hear about Jerry Jones' pathetic team's playoff hopes anymore. 319. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) GODDAMMIT, STOP BEATING KID ROCK INTO OUR HEADS, BSPN! 320. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm sorry about that, but SHEESH, BSPN are just trying to beat us over the head with him today. Worst it's been the whole Chase! 321. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No worries Baker. I'm flipping back between the race and the Browns vs. Cowboys game. I hope the Browns win so I don't have to hear about Jerry Jones' pathetic team's playoff hopes anymore." When I actually cared about football, the Browns were my favorite team. And the Indians are my favorite baseball team. Don't ask why, I just like Cleveland for some reason. 322. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My God, another BS caution. 323. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stupid. 324. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon is ahead of Jimmie Johnson. 325. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My football analysis: My Panthers are really really really really really pathetic. 21-10 lead in the middle of the 4th quarter? No problem, we can shit the bed in any situation. 326. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That Winston Cup trophy was huge and beautiful. I remember Gordon could never even pick it up all the way." Huh? This is preposterous! 327. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Don't tell me about how bad a football team you have. I have had to chear for the most pathetic franchise in football since 1999. I was born in 1985 and faintly remember them winning in the late 80s. I have seen 1 playoff win(1994) and 99 of 121 other "major" sport franchised have WON a playoff game/series since the last time my Browns even MADE a playoff. 328. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's Carl's problem. He must have been carrying around Jay Glazer in his car screaming more in his face all year. 329. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon is ahead of Jimmie Johnson." Or was, I'm barely getting the MRN online stream. What lap are we on? 330. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, damn. Jimmie is gonna lead a lap right here. 331. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He already led a lap earlier in pit cycles. And we're on lap 151 David. 332. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I turn it on and the first thing I see is Kyle Busch dive bomb the corner and realize Keselowski is tied with Johnson in points. Not Cool. 333. joey2448 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd take a boring race today for a championship for Brad.... Also, good to see Lewis Hamilton get a win today in Austin, in what may be his last victory for McLaren. 334. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse crashes. Is this a preview for next year? Is it possible that Stenhouse will crash so much next year that Danica ends up winning Rookie of the Year? 335. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse in the wall. 336. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And we're on lap 151 David." Thank you. 337. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stenhouse crashes. Is this a preview for next year? Is it possible that Stenhouse will crash so much next year that Danica ends up winning Rookie of the Year?" I hope not, because we'd never hear the end of it if she won ROTY. I don't like Stenhouse that much, but I hope he kicks her ass in the ROTY battle. 338. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know the fact that she finished 10th in Nationwide points is going to be blown way out of proportion... 339. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica's only hope at top 10s are the plate races. Otherwise she has seemed pretty over matched everywhere else in a Cup car. 340. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hope not, because we'd never hear the end of it if she won ROTY. I don't like Stenhouse that much, but I hope he kicks her ass in the ROTY battle." Speaking of which, Stenhouse will finish 15th to 25th in points, and Danica will finish no better than 26th. I'm calling it now. 341. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I could see NASCAR still giving the ROTY award to Danica even though Stenhouse beat her in rookie points by a lot. Haven't there been a few cases where the ROTY didn't earn the most rookie points? 342. Corndog posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Missed the first hundred laps or so, come back and the first thing I see is Keselowski and Johnson tied for the lead. Don't do this to me, Brad! 343. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That sounds about right David. I don't see her getting any top tens, other than maybe one (or two if she's super lucky) at a plate race, just like MarkMartinFan said. 344. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You know the fact that she finished 10th in Nationwide points is going to be blown way out of proportion..." It already has. NASCAR.com already posted an article claiming that she has made history by finishing in the top ten. Excuse me while I go vomit. 345. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Haven't there been a few cases where the ROTY didn't earn the most rookie points?" I'm guessing that it happened in 2002, because Jimmie had a much better overall season then Newman did, even though Newman won ROTY. But I'm probably wrong, so take that with a grain of salt. 346. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I could see NASCAR still giving the ROTY award to Danica even though Stenhouse beat her in rookie points by a lot. Haven't there been a few cases where the ROTY didn't earn the most rookie points?" Twice. Terry Bivins scored the most in 1976, but NASCAR gave the award to Skip Manning. The other instance was in 1981, when Ron Bouchard won the award even though Morgan Shepherd scored more rookie points. 347. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep, I was wrong, lol 348. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Without a g-w-c Jimmie cannot lead the most laps. 349. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman scored more rookie points than Johnson in '02. 350. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman was much more consistent than Jimmie Johnson in 2002. Jimmie had 3 wins to Ryan's 1 but Ryan had 14 top 5s and 22 top 10s compared to Jimmie's 6 top 5s and 21 top 10s. 351. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't know Bivins scored more points than Manning in '76. I was thinking of '81 with Shepherd and Bouchard. 352. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NASCAR.com already posted an article claiming that she has made history by finishing in the top ten. Excuse me while I go vomit." NASCAR makes up arbitrary records (which are factual) to glorify Danica Patrick and the Dillon brothers. "I'm guessing that it happened in 2002, because Jimmie had a much better overall season then Newman did, even though Newman won ROTY. But I'm probably wrong, so take that with a grain of salt." You're saying that because he won more races and scored more points. Newman had EIGHT more top fives and one more top ten than Johnson. And Johnson outscored him by only 7 points. I'll take that salt, please. 353. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. J. J. Yeley's 37 team hasn't parked from this race? I just noticed on the leaderboard that he's still running! 354. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All three TBR cars have primary sponsors and are still on the track. There have only been 10 start-and-parks this weekend, which is incredible considering how many times there have been 10 in one race a few times this season. 355. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson and Gordon will have to pit once; Kyle, Kasey, and Truex will have to pit twice. 356. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Brad pits, there will be a caution. 357. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne busted for speeding on pit road. 358. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shit. 359. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson might win the title on pit strategy...and I know if that happens, everyone will be screaming. 360. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Jimmie wins this championship then I am never watching NASCAR again. 361. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES!!!! 362. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Brad K. is Champ!! 363. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Missing lugnut on Johnson's car. 364. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson had a pit road mistake! Everybody, start celebrating! 365. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chad Knaus will now drop dead of a stroke. 48 gets a penalty. 366. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Are you kidding me? NASCAR is actually enforcing a rule on a Hendrick team in a big situation? That has got to be a first. 367. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DROPPED LUG NUT ON JOHNSON'S CAR!!!! 368. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Come on down 5 Time! 369. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HEIMLICH'S FOR JIMMIE! 370. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Missed a lugnut on the #48. This may be what costs him the championship. 371. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am six comments too late. 372. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The emotionless juggernaut just screwed themselves in the pits, better luck next year JJ and Chad. 373. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Phew. The 48 team just bailed the 2 car out. 374. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think I am going out on a limb here, but bet we don't see that guy changing tires for the 48 car ever again. 375. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That just increased Jeff's chance's of winning exponentially. That is about 60% of the reason I am so happy! 376. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to laugh hard if Jeff Gordon ends up winning a race he probably should have been sat out of. 377. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now all we have to worry about is whether or not Kyle blows another race and has a meltdown. He clearly deserves this one and is in the driver's seat, so we'll see if something happens or if Rogers screws them like he did at Richmond. 378. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That lap that Gordon led moved him into a tie with Darrell Waltrip for career laps led. 379. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2 team just got their ass pulled out of the fire. 380. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BAM!!! 381. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson's back on pit road. Possible drive train problem. 382. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) IT'S OVER! 383. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice. 384. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jimmie just had a mechanical problem. It's over. Keselowski is the champion. Now let's just see who wins this race. 385. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Brad Keselowski 2012 Champion. 386. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DNF. 387. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Their done. Brad is the champ. 388. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wait. Could Kasey Kahne finish second in the points? 389. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drive train problems on the #48 Their night's over... To quote BP "MAN OH MAN!" 390. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Smoke coming out of the 48 after Brad's team found out they might not be able to make it on mileage. So that's twice in a row that when Brad seemed to run into a setback, the #48 ran into something worse. Okay, I think it's safe to say Brad will be this year's champion now that the 48 is behind the wall. 391. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. The #48 has suddenly lost the horseshoe and gained a curse. 392. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully this race goes green the rest of the way. 393. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't matter no way. Get the Miller Lite ready boys. Time to celebrate. What a moment! 394. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES YES YES!!! 395. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That 2007 Memphis truck race seems like Yesterday. 396. Yea! posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Miller time! 397. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would everybody still rage if Gordon won? 398. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) amazing how far he has come. 399. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am ecstatic as well to see Brad pretty much clinch. This is going to be the happiest I have been during a NASCAR off-season in a while. 400. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) and just like that, congrats to Brad on his 2012 cup championship 401. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle and Truex are making no effort to conserve fuel. 402. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Would everybody still rage if Gordon won?" Heck no. That is the only thing that could make this day better for me. 403. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2 team deserves it more. All year, they've outraced the 48. There are at least three instances this year where they've shown that they were the better team than the 48 (Kentucky, Chicago, Dover). And now, Jimmie and Chad come into this race with all of their arrogance hanging out, and now this happens to them. Bottom line: Brad Keselowski and the 2 team deserve this championship, and the 48 doesn't. Justice has been served. 404. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad to see the #48 juggernaut come up short, but...This season still was not a very good season, in my opinion. Anyone remember last week how I said I'd be giving out the "Goody's Headache Powder Award" in every race for a driver who would have gotten a good finish had bad luck not reared its ugly head? Well, I think it's safe to say Jimmie Johnson wins the Schroeder51 Goody's Headache Powder Award for this race! 405. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, that's because they pitted with 68 to go and have absolutely no chance to make it on fuel. 406. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BSPN evidently said Clint Bowyer can make it on fuel. 407. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Other than the beginning of Jimmie's streak, this will be the first first-time champion we've seen since Kurt in 2004. Wow. 408. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wish I could be around all you fellow Brad fans, especially the ones who suffered through 2010, and soak you all with Miller Lite. BRAD 2 THE BONE BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 409. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, it's been a long time since we've seen a new champion not named Jimmie Johnson or Tony Stewart! 410. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm assuming Roger Penske would the first owner to win a NASCAR and Indycar championship, right? 411. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff's going to win the race on fuel mileage. 412. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm feeling epic euforia right now.. 413. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know 18fan, I'm just saying what I'm seeing. Truex just brushed the wall and loses Kyle. Hamlin down a cylinder. 414. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Clint Bowyer finishes in the top 5, it'll be the first time he's had double digit top 5s in a single Cup season. 415. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL, Gordon finally wins Homestead when he probably should not have even raced. That's just ironic. Denny Hamlin is down a cylinder. 416. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Bowyer makes it to the finish, he'll pass Jimmie for 2nd in points. 417. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^If it happens, that is. 418. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex is pitting. 419. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon is the leader! 420. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon to the lead. 421. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Yeah, Bowyer looks like he'll take 2nd in points. 422. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Gordon and Bowyer 1-2. 423. joey2448 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie may not even finish second in points. It may go to Bowyer! Crack the Miller Lites, and let's get the win Jeff Gordon! 424. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see that Bowyer-Gordon feud continuing. I think they'll bury the hatchet over the offseason. Oh so ironic that they might well finish 1-2. 425. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Oh yeah, I forgot to express my excitement for Roger winning his first Cup championship as an owner. He's been in this business a long time with drivers like Rusty and Kurt and despite the team's success, they never won a Cup title. But that will change tonight! If anyone deserves to win it all, it is Roger and of course Brad and Paul Wolfe. Those three are a great combination. 426. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How ironic that its Jeff Gordon vs Clint Bowyer for the win. 427. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Six laps to go. 428. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Gordon wins, I will jump up and down for thirty straight seconds, then comment, then play the piano until I drop. Slight exaggeration there about the piano playing. 429. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Almirola's going to finish 3rd. 430. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch is fifth. 431. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3 laps to go. 432. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two laps... 433. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) White flag! 434. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! 435. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) GORDON FINALLY WINS AT HOMESTEAD. Congratulations Keselowski! 436. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I just wanted to share the following comments from the past few years... 31. The Real Thomas posted: 04.26.09 - 9:33 pm Mark my words. Brad Keselowski will never win another Sprint Cup race. 8. WallaceFan posted: 11.15.09 - 1:15 am As I have been saying for probably 2 years, Brad Keselowski is a complete waste on the track. He wrecks people consistently and cant manage to take the blame. EVER since he won the Cup race he has gotten fuller and fuller of himself and its starting to reach a breaking point. Does Hamlin whine sometimes, SURE, does he have a reason this time? DEFINATLEY....This guy is not what Nascar needs. He is not Dale Earnhardt, he isnt even Kyle Busch. He is a whiney little brat who is full of himself. He has a minimum amount of friends if ANY on the circuit. 47. 3+8+88FAN4EVER posted: 11.16.09 - 1:50 pm DONT EVER COMPARE HIM TO DALE EARNHARDT AGAIN. I was one of the biggest SR fans and i still am, and this guy isnt a SCAB ON HIS BUTT. 47. Bronco posted: 08.21.10 - 9:58 am It's a hame that Miller is trading a stud like Kurt Busch for a dud like KeSLOWski. I guess they're just gonna have to sit back and watch Harvick and Bud kick sand in their faces for the next 3 years. also... 08.21.10 - 5:23 pm Please don't insult Dale Earnhardt by comparing him to KeSLOWski. Earnhardt could at least finish in the top 10 even in his worst seasons. KeSLOWski on the other hand, is getting his butt kicked by the pay driver everyone loves to bag on, Paul Menard. PICK YOUR DATE - EVERY OPPURTUNITY KRASHALOTSKI, WREKSALOTSKI, TRASHALOTSKI, CAUSEAWRECKSKI, KeSLOWski, BUMPER BRAD, BULLDOZER BRAD! /bitching 3. WallaceFan posted: 09.22.08 - 12:52 pm He will eventually go to cup with Hendrick, but I dont see his as anything more than a 10-20place driver in Cup. Yea he may win a race here and there, but he wont be a champion. Go ahead and argue with me if youd like, but I see him as the next Casey Mears. 185. wooo posted: 08.03.10 - 9:53 am Brad sucks. He's like Joey Logano. He's a success in the Nationwide series but cant do shit in Sprint Cup You may now eat those words... Congrats Brad! Awesome job! The future is bright for him! Here's for more to come! I'm so happy right now! :D 437. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AWESOME!!! 438. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While we're talking about Bowyer, how about MWR. Anyone who said after 2007 and fuelgate that they'd one day be championship contenders would of been laughed right out into the streets. Now the #15's got second in points tied down and Martin Truex will get his first top-10 points finish. Nobody saw that coming. 439. Baker posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Most undeserved win of all time. Even more undeserved win than Joey Logano at Loudon and David Reuttiman at the 600 because he should not have ever been allowed to race. 440. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD! 441. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Wow! Jeff wins the race, Brad wins the title, and Jimmie's in the garage? This race couldn't have gone any better! 442. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Baker, shit bricks you jerks! Jeff's won because he wanted it... NASCAR only suspends drivers who violate probation, and Jeff wasn't on probation, so suck it, and suck it good. 443. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just the way the year has gone for Kyle. 444. New14 & 88Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Sprint Cup Champion: Brad Keselowski! CELEBRATION TIME!!!!! 445. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 87th career win for Jeff Gordon. 446. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!! 447. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Who gives a damn about this Dodge engine? It's not like we're using it ever again!!!" - Brad 448. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle had the best car in all three races this weekend and gets beat every time. Just the way his whole season has gone. 449. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We could fill up an entire book just on Bronco's skepticism. But we are still family. 450. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best fun I can possibly have! 451. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't wait to see Clint Bowyer's post race interview, congrats to Dodge, Roger Penske, Brad Keselowski, Paul Wolfe, and everyone on the 2 team, and Jeff Gordon for winning at Homestead, this was interesting. DSFF, do you need a parimedic? 452. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And like I said, I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a long lasting Gordon-Bowyer feud down the road. I really do think they will settle everything over the offseason. It's not going to be like Danica Patrick vs. Sam Hornish where she tries to wreck him nearly EVERY single time they run close together. 453. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I AM ECSTATIC!!!!!! 454. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you appeared to have a mild stroke at comment 440. 455. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Nico, the only thing I'll be sucking is some Miller Lites in celebration of Brad. Gordon is yesterday's news. This is the start of a new dynasty. 456. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, DSFF, Baker... I actually like you guys. That said, what a heck of a race. As all can imagine the paranoid schizoid Jimmie fan who thinks NASCAR is out to get him in my house is acting like the sky fell. 457. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha! Yeah, I need a paramedic for me lol. 458. MarkMartinFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just like ESPN, Jeff says to go talk to the champion. Oh hold on Jeff, we wanna cause some drama. 459. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And my psychotic Jimmie fan just said she won't play any Sporcle quizzes with Keselowski as an answer... whiny b!*(# 460. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Check out Roger Penske rocking the HMS hat and Rick Hendrick wearing a Shell hat. 461. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a better to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the changing of the guard in 1992 other than having the last changing of the guard as the torch is passed to BK? 462. Archie posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Beavis (or is it Butthead) compares himself to Ray Lewis. 463. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) If Johnson's crew didn't absolutely choke on the pit stop and if the car was assembled properly and if he won, the #2 would have finished 16th and the #48 would have won the championship. Everything fell in place perfectly, and the team blew it. Way to choke, Hendrick! Johnson worked his ass off all for naught. 464. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the butthurt begins... 465. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Okay guys, cue up more Kid Rock stuff even though the race is over." - BSPN to their guys in the truck 466. Smiff_2 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HOLY HELL IT'S OFFICIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH BABYYYYYYY!!!!! 467. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny how Shell didn't want Brad because he wasn't a "championship driver" and they wanted Kurt Busch to drive for them. 468. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brain France. 469. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Call me crazy...but...I actually kind of DO wish we had a couple of Jimmie Johnson fans who regularly posted. Not the paranoid, crazy ones, but some respectable, common sensical, mature ones. Believe me, I'm no fan of Jimmie, but I think it would be interesting to have everyone's different points of view. 470. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) and Brian looks like they just woke him up off the floor. 471. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I STILL say Brad should get one big ass trophy for winning the title. 472. LEDSKYNYRD193 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) CONGRATULATIONS BRAD KESELOWSKI!!! that's all i can say right now I'M TOO EXCITED!!!! 473. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, the paranoid I live with is saying she's done with NASCAR and that she wishes Jimmie won because he has "more class." How about Jeff losing to Jimmie in 07? That was class losing to no class also... 474. joey2448 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright Racing-Reference fans, let's get this party started!!! YYEEEESSSSSSSS!!! Could this day get any more perfect??? Keselowski is the champion (beating the 48 crew), and Jeff Gordon gets his first Cup win at Homestead! Only track left for him to win is Kentucky! Seriously, what a beautiful day! Now if only Da Bears can win tomorrow, haha! 475. 44andJoe posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting fact: Brad finished 15th. Had Jimmie won, and everything else being equal (I know, I know), he would have been 16th: precisely where he would have needed to be to clinch. CONGRATS 476. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Get Logano off the damn stage. 477. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this board is a great representation of NASCAR's fanbase. There's some Busch fans, some Harvick fans, some Stewart fans, a lot of Gordon fans/haters, and almost a unanimous number of Brad fans. Hmmm...no Johnson or Junior fans. Oh well, no loss. 478. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol at Logano. 479. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Was Logano seriously on the stage? Haha he really is invisible. I was too distracted by Brad's behemoth of a brother, Brian. 480. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @477 Junior fan here!!!! *waves arms frantically* 481. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was all class winning the championship. And I would at least say more so, seeing Brad and the Blue Deuce team win than seeing a team that has repeatedly been busted for cheating win it. I do respect Jimmie Johnson as a racer though. 482. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had Jimmie not had his problem, they would have employed a different strategy in the end. Brad does look stunned. Honestly I am too. I wondered how I would feel about it, and the answer is numb. Trying to let it sink in. 483. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My mistake, we do indeed have a Junior fan. 484. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon should have break danced in victory lane. 485. BON GORDON posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All I can say is Oh My God!! Keselowski is champion but much more important to me is Jeff Gordon just won it baby!!!!!! Screw all the haters. This man is a legend. I sure picked a hell of a race to miss. I went to see Lincoln, great movie by the way, everyone on this site should go see it if the havent already. But go Jeff! 486. startandparkfan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yay for Keslowski! Will the Johnson issue go in as Rear Gear, Drivetrain, or what? It said he burned out his rear gear, so that's probably what it should go in as. YAY! JEFF GORDON WINS!!!!! Finally! 487. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well remember Paul that, in victory lane at the 2008 Daytona 500, after Ryan Newman delivered Roger Penske's first (and currently only) win in that race after 37 years of trying, Penske wore a Hendrick Motorsports hat in victory lane that night, as well, so it shouldn't have surprosed anyone that Penske wore a Hendrick hat, or that Hendrick wore a Shell hat when he congratulated Penske on the championship, because they're great friends, and as I've said before, Hendrick used Penske's IndyCar operation as a model to build his organization, and it's obviously worked. And on a side note, Hell must have frozen over tonight, because Penske won the championship with his #2 car, Jeff Gordon won the race, and Gordon won because of a pit call on the third and last caution period, as he had more fuel than the other drivers and held on. And if Clint Bowyer did finish second in the points, that situation when Gordon wrecked him at Phoenix didn't cost him anything in the end, after all, because that's where he would have been anyway. And most of all, the team that usually doesn't make mistakes, the #48 team of Jimmie Johnson, made the biggest one of all, though it proved irrelevant in the end with the mechanical problem that knocked him, not only out of the race, but apparently out of second in the points as well. And Brad Keselowski did something that Bobby Allison, Rusty Wallace, and Kurt Busch, all champions and two of them Hall of Famers couldn't do, and that's deliver Roger Penske a championship. now all Penske's got to do is win the Brickyard 400 at Indianapolis, and then he'll have captured literally every major prize there is to win in American automobile racing. And if not for the addition of Kentucky Spedway to the Cup series schedule in 2011, Jeff Gordon would have accomplished his goal of winning at every track on the circuit, something no driver has ever done. Now a win at Kentucky will complete the circuit. And he now only has to win 13 more times to reach that magic 100-win plateau, at which point, I would do the unthinkable, and put him #1 on my all-time list, and have someone other than Richard Petty at the top of my driver list. He's even won on two tracks no longer on the Cup circuit, North Wilkesoboro and Rockingham (four times). And Homestead becomes the 23rd different track on which he's won a race. 488. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl's voice sounds terrible. 489. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think this board is a great representation of NASCAR's fanbase. There's some Busch fans, some Harvick fans, some Stewart fans, a lot of Gordon fans/haters, and almost a unanimous number of Brad fans. Hmmm...no Johnson or Junior fans. Oh well, no loss." It's interesting for sure. I don't really put myself into a category as a fan of one particular driver. I like certain guys more than others (Brad, Kenseth, Burton, Harvick, Kasey, McMurray), and there are other guys that I don't like quite as much (Busch Brothers, Montoya, McDowell, Dillon Brothers, Stenhouse, Danica). I just enjoy being able to come on here and have some great debates and conversations with fellow non-crazy race fans. But the backstories of each individual poster and who they like/don't like are pretty intriguing. 490. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl's lost his voice? 491. Sector posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HA! Those who said Jeff Gordon's wreck @ Phoenix a week ago was the killer for the rest of his career? Jeff Gordon proved you wrong! First win ever for both Jeff Gordon & the entire Hendrick Motorsports organization @ Homestead @ the Cup level. Jeff won the Busch race back in 2000 even. Now marks the only track both are winless at, which is Kentucky! Congrats to Brad Keselowski, Roger Penske & Paul Wolfe as well as the entire crews/family. Roger was destined to win one & its today. Find it funny how Roger was wearing a Hendrick Motorsports hat! lol 492. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch and Aric Almirola ran out of fuel on the final lap. 493. Sector posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The win also puts Gordon back in the top 10 in points, 2nd year in a row Jeff Gordon had to gain positions to place himself in the banquet. About 8 points behind Stewart for 9th. 494. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great. Now we're going to have another Jeff Gordon debate because of cjs' last paragraph. This was Jeff's first Chase win since Charlotte '07. 495. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad joins Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt as the only modern era drivers to win a Cup championship within their first 3 full-time seasons. 496. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon could still win Kentucky before his career is over. I think he'll probably retire at the end of the 2015 season (that's my guess), so it's not impossible. I doubt he'll reach 100 career wins, but I think he will at least get to 90 career wins before he retires. My guess is either 91 or 92 career wins total. 497. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Brad joins Bobby Labonte as the only drivers to win both a Nationwide and Sprint Cup championship. 498. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Shove it cjs... Jeff fan since 1994 here... Jeff's not the greatest, although he may be the most versatile. Hail to the chief! 499. startandparkfan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now all they gotta do is give Brian Keslowski a chance! #470 Which Brian are you referring to, France or Kez? Remember that guy last year? "I'd like to congratulate you on your [Tony Stewart] 3rd NASCAR Sprint Motor Cup Speed Series" -Sprint Chief Financial officer Joe Euteneuer All the employees that sprint sends look like someone just woke them up off of the floor, not to copy Post #470, lol. 500. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's about (Miller) time the golden horseshoe was pried out of Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus's hands. Congrats all around, loved it. 501. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards has now gone winless the season after each of his runner-up seasons (he tied for 2nd in '05). With Jimmy Fennig as his crew chief, I predict he will make the Chase and be one of the top 2 winningest Ford drivers next season. 502. The Final Gear posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats BK on the championship. I remember thinking before his Kansas win and his infamous summer run that he had to do something or his career was heading back to the N'Wide series and he proved me wrong. If anybody needs a NASCAR movie, look no further than that. Congrats to JG, you shouldn't have been racing but you still won the race and I laughed about that. I have a feeling he will be pushing hard at Kentucky next year. Overall, this wasn't a great season by any standard. I'm not looking forward to the media circus in the Cup garage next year. There are a few storylines worth watching right now but silly season needs to deliver a few more if we want an interesting season. That being said, Brad deserves the spotlight. 503. Sector posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Dale Earnhardt Jr scores his first top 10 finish ever @ Homestead! 504. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kudos to Carl Edwards for putting Brad over as a great competitor and a "student of the game" as he called it. I wouldn't have thought that would happen two years ago. For all it's worth, Carl did refer to Brad as a teammate, so perhaps Roush and Penske will be working close together next year. 505. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of predictions Paul, I've decided that I'm gonna post my full 2013 Sprint Cup predictions here later on this week (probably Wednesday or Thursday). I've got most of them ironed out, and over the next couple days I'll be finishing them up. Usually in the off season, a lot of people stay active here on Racing Reference and post their thoughts about stuff that is happening in the off season and what not. I know that I'll be staying active for sure. 506. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL at Brad drinking during his ESPN interview. 507. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Despite missing the chase and having his first single-win season since 2007, Kyle Busch had his 3rd highest top 5 finish total and tied his 2nd highest top 10 finish total this year. Outside of missing the Chase, this was one of Kyle's best 2 or 3 seasons in Cup. 508. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 499. startandparkfan posted: 11.18.12 - 6:51 pm Now all they gotta do is give Brian Keslowski a chance! #470 Which Brian are you referring to, France or Kez? I was referring to Brian France. 509. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to do my best to look through all the races and give who I think would have earned the Goody's Headache Award were that award still being given out. This'll be somewhat difficult as some races this year (like both the races at Loudon) were pretty damned unmemorable and just sort of...seemed to happen, really. But I'll do my best. 510. startandparkfan posted: 11.18.2012 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #508 HAHA lol agreed. Brad is now drunk. 511. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL, Brad is tipsy while Sportscenter is interviewing him. 512. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, that is one big glass of beer he's got. 513. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Kyle can continue this momentum into next season, he could be the point leader entering the Chase. He'll have to step it up during the Chase to be a title contender, but I feel he could have a great regular season. 514. Sector posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch scoring another top 10 finish in 9th..He'll be an interesting driver to keep an eye on next season in the Vissar #78 car. 515. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually think Kurt Busch might make the Chase in the #78 car next year. 516. Brad24 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To all the haters that wanted to see Gordon parked: U mad bro?! What better way to end the season! Team 24!! Congrats to BK2 and The Captain for their first Cup Title. What better way for Dodge to go out. The end of a season means a lot of lasts: Drivers: Matt Kenseth with Roush. (Moving to the JGR #20) Joey Logano with JGR. (Moving to the Penske #22) Possibly final race for Regan Smith with Phoenix Racing. (Full-time NNS for JRM next year. Although he could run a few Cup races for them next year. If AJ Allmendinger doesn't get the ride.) David Reutimann in the #10. (Danica will driving the #10 full-time for SHR. Reutimann's plans are unknown.) Possibly final race for David Ragan in the #34. That's all I got right now. See you in 97 days! 517. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a shame that Larry Mac wasted that big beer, although I'm sure they can find more in that party. 518. Kenny posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) This was such a GRATE race and session Hr gets back to vectory lain and we get to see a new champ hears hoping jemmie never wins a title again 519. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was an awesome interview by Brad. 520. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was wondering if anyone else saw Brad's SportsCenter interview. He is drunk as f**k and hilarious. Character. Love it. 521. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just imagine if that glass was full when he first got it. Aric Almirola was on pace for his best career Sprint Cup finish, but ran out of fuel on the last lap and fell from 3rd to 7th. In their final races with their respective teams, Joey Logano finishes on the lead lap in 14th (he actually finished better in the Cup race this weekend), Matt Kenseth finished one lap down in 18th, Sam Hornish, Jr. finished one lap down in 22nd, and Regan Smith finished three laps down in 30th. 522. joey2448 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I missed the SportsCenter interview with Brad, but it sounds like it was pretty hilarious. And I'm not surprised to hear he was tipsy, that was a big glass of beer he was drinking! 523. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Possibly final race for David Ragan in the #34." Both FRM and Ragan want to work together again in 2013 and are currently working on a deal. 524. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Dodge's last race for the foreseeable future and last race for the 2007-2012 version of the COT(Good riddance, the COT sucked.) 525. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't wait for those news cars to debut next season. They look awesome! Although I do think that IROC-ish name on the windshield is kind of silly. 526. Jon posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) BK!!!!!! what a season! 527. Eric posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Are you going to admit that your wrong with your claim of brad Keselowski will be losing points if his car's inspected after the race, given his harsh comments aimed toward both the competitors and NASCAR itself after last week's race at Phoenix. Are you also going to admit that you were wrong about Brad getting a points penalty for his harsh comments aimed toward both the competitors and NASCAR itself at Phoenix? 528. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If there was no Chase, Brad would have beat Greg Biffle by 19 points. Truly deserving champion. "Dale Earnhardt, Jr. won the championship in his 2nd Sprint Cup season in 1980." - BSPN FAIL!!! 529. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Loved Roger Penske's acknowledgment of the reliability of the Dodge on the Sprint Cup stage which was shot across the bow to the #48 team. Regardless of the lug nut penalty, mechanical issues doomed the #48 when the pressure was on, melting a bead at Phoenix (blowing a tire as a result) and burning up a rear end gear at Homestead. 530. startandparkfan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are some DNF's I know... #6 Crash #48 Rear Gear Will they all be changed eventually? 531. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) When was the last time a Cup Champion gave a drunk interview... HAHAHA Love it, absolutely fantastic!!! This is a very popular championship... Also, the first time a beer sponsored team won the Winston Cup since 1985 with Darrell Waltrip's Budweiser sponsored Junior Johnson #11 team. 532. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Martin Truex and Dale Jr will be the two drivers left off stage at the banquet, as they wound up 11th and 12th in final standings, respectively. Obviously, it's pretty well known why Jr finished 12th, but I'm a little surprised to see Truex in 11th. I guess he just had a lot of bad luck throughout the Chase. 533. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How my favorite racing drivers finished in F1/Cup today #1 Jeff Gordon WON! #2 Fernando Alonso 85th Podium with a 3rd from 7th. #3 Pastor Maldonado finished in the points Back-Back races for the first time. #4 Lewis Hamilton Wins an epic elite super-race at Austin. #5 Kyle Busch Dominates and fails to win for the 6th time this year with a 4th. Honorable Mention: Brad K. is Champ! 534. webmaster posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll be updating all the missing information as soon as I can get it from NASCAR; their media site has been melting down since shortly after the race ended. 535. Brad24 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Obviously, it's pretty well known why Jr finished 12th, but I'm a little surprised to see Truex in 11th. I guess he just had a lot of bad luck throughout the Chase." That's pretty much been the theme of his whole season. He came so close to winning at Kansas in April, Atlanta, and maybe today. He just wasn't able to close the deal. 536. Anthony posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Done Brad!! I think the Johnson dynasty is now over, he won't make the Chase next year 537. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Paul, that I wasn't the only one that caught that screw-up by those at the SportsCenter desk. It was Dale Earnhardt, SR. that won the title in his second season in 1980, ironically for a team that Roger Penske built throughout most of the 1970s, in a #2 car, just as Keslowski did so this year for Penske. And Eric, I only thought that might be a possibility for Brad's comments that harsh action. And I thought that something might happen in an inspection after the race, but finisheing seventh, unless his finishing position was randomly chosen, Keselowski's car won't be inspected, but it wouldn't have mattered anyway because Keselowski's winning margin was more than even the penalty handed down to Corey LaJoie that cost him the K&N East title was. Keselowski's winning margin was 39 points, or nearly one full race over Clint Bowyer. And Bowyer finishing second erased much of the pain of what happened at Phoenix, because, as it turned out, that incident didn't cost him anything in the end, in terms of the championship standings, because he was still going to be second. And I see that other posters are crucifying Joey Logano for congratulating Brad Keselowski on the stage for winning the championship. What's wrong with that? First, I have no problem with anyone congratulating a winner, or in this case, a champion on his acheivement. In fact, I think it's even good sportsmanship, as long as he doesn't stay there too long. And in case anyone has forgotten, Logano IS going to be Brad's teammate next year, so he's also congratulating a teammate on winning the championship. And I don't see anything wrong with that. 538. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Imagine if DuPont had approved a Rainbow Warriors 20th Anniversary paint scheme for Homestead, the diecasts would be flying off the shelves in time for Christmas after this win. 539. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, you're right Brad24. He definitely deserved to get at least one win this year. And when you look at his Chase performance on paper, he ran much better than some of the guys that finished ahead of him (like Harvick and Stewart), but he seemed to be snakebit by that bad luck. 540. Brad24 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I'm thinking about it, who won ROTY? Josh Wise? 541. ledskynyrd193 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jerkoff finishing 36th, where a field filler usually finishes, with a "rear gear" issue which is a common excuse for start and parkers just looks hilarious. 542. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad24, why should anyone be surprised that Martin Truex, Jr. performed so badly in the Chase? I said before the Chase even started that Truex was, by far, the weakest driver among those in the Chase, so I thought he might finish at, or near the bottom of the Chasers, and other than Elliott Sadler and Jeremy Mayfield, Truex may possibly be the worst driver ever to make the Chase, so it's no surprise to me that he would have finished last if not for the fact that Dale, Jr. had to sit out two races. After all, Truex was the only Chase driver not to win a race this year, and the only driver in the top 14 in the championship standings to go winless. Even Joey Logano and Marcos Ambrose, who were 17th and 18th, picked up wins this year. 543. D-Rock21 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #540 I believe Stephen Leicht will be ROTY. Even though Wise outscored him 147-126, Leicht ran just 15 races to Wise's 30. 544. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There needs to be more beer sponsorships, so there is a greater possibility for the champion or race winner to be drunk and funny. 545. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon picks ups his 16th win from 15th or worse,surpassing Big E who had 15 wins from 15th or worse. 546. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I see that other posters are crucifying Joey Logano for congratulating Brad Keselowski on the stage for winning the championship." Just to clarify CJS, I was not crucifying him. I was just laughing at DSFF's angry post about it. I don't really see anything wrong with it either. But I do think it's just kind of weird that Joey is already acting like he is a part of Team Penske. Just minutes earlier, he finished driving his last race for JGR. Usually after a driver leaves a team, there's usually some bittersweet reminiscing that goes on after the race (kind of like what Tony did in 2008 when he left JGR). So by him being already in the mindset of moving on from JGR just minutes after the race is over, something tells me that Joey has had a strained relationship or something with the 20 team over the past couple months or so. It just seems like he's really moving away from his tenure at JGR really quickly. But like I said, I don't blame him at all for going up and congratulating Brad. It is good sportsmanship. 547. Brad24 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) D-Rock21: Wise was also the highest finishing rookie in 21 of those races too. 548. DieselDan posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, the first time a beer sponsored team won the Winston Cup since 1985 with Darrell Waltrip's Budweiser sponsored Junior Johnson #11 team. Wrong there jarrettfan. Bill Elliott won the 1988 title sponsored by Coors, a beer company formally based in Colorado. Miller sponsored Bobby Allison in 1983 too. 549. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That makes 18 Top 10 points finishes in 20 seasons for Jeff Gordon. 550. Ty (fourturns.blogspot.com) posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Thank God Jimmie Johnson didn't win the championship. Congratulations, Brad. You did something a few other drivers couldn't do -- look Johnson in the eyes and beat him for the championship. For that, he deserves it. Also glad Roger Penske picked up his first Sprint Cup title -- definitely one of the best owners in auto racing history. Two years without Jimmie winning the championship = Priceless. 551. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only 13 cars finish on the lead lap 552. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 14 not 13 553. D-Rock21 posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad24: Good point, though he did only finish 1 race this year and start-and-parked 28 of the other 29, while Leicht finished 5 times and parked 9 of the other 10 races he ran. Leicht also beat Wise 9 out of 13 times they were both in the race. Either way it's a pretty disappointing rookie class, much like the last couple years. 554. JG24FanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon has now won at 24 different tracks extending his Modern record. I have a feeling Gordon is going to have a surprise retirement. 555. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Points scored during the Chase: 1. Brad Keselowski 391 2. Kyle Busch 359 3. Clint Bowyer 355 4. Jimmie Johnson 351 5. Kasey Kahne 345 6. Greg Biffle 326 T7. Matt Kenseth 321 T7. Kevin Harvick 321 T9. Denny Hamlin 317 T9. Ryan Newman 317 11. Jeff Gordon 303 12. Tony Stewart 302 13. Martin Truex, Jr. 299 18. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 242(only ran 8 races) Brad and Jimmie led with 2 wins each. Kyle led with 7 top 5s in the Chase. Brad, Kyle, and Clint led with 8 top 10s. Kyle led with 864 laps led. Also, Jimmie Johnson tied for the series lead in wins, led the series in top 5s, top 10s, and laps led and tied for the lead in poles. But he also tied for the lead with 6 DNFs and finished 3rd in both full season and Chase points. Also, in the Chase Jimmie tied Brad in wins, had more top 5s(6 to 3) and only 1 less top 10(7 compared to 8 for Brad). Plus he led more than twice as many laps as Brad. I just found that interesting with the recent debates we've had on this site about 1996. 556. Ty (fourturns.blogspot.com) posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Either way it's a pretty disappointing rookie class, much like the last couple years." Yeah, disappointing is an understatement. But, it should be getting better in the next couple of years. Ricky Stenhouse and Danica Patrick (oh boy) will be coming next year and Austin Dillon will come in 2014 and Ty Dillon in 2016. We will likely see Nelson Piquet Jr., James Buescher, Kyle Larson, Ryan Truex, Darrell Wallace Jr., Parker Kligerman, Ryan Blaney and others come to the series as well in the next 4-5 years or so. It definitely will get better, I can guarantee that. 557. Evan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) --First Sprint Cup title for Roger Penske and coming close with Rusty Wallace in 1993, it was pretty good to see Penske finally win one in NASCAR after seeing them struggle through the years with Ryan Newman and drivers who were very tough to get along with each other. --First championship for Dodge in NASCAR, in its final year of Cup competition. --First NASCAR championship of any kind for a member of the Keselowski family, Keselowski's father won the ARCA title a series not sanctioned by NASCAR. --Bartender I'll have two Miller Lite as Brad Keselowski is the new Sprint Cup Champ. --Final race for Dodge(at least for now...) Farewell, I remember seeing Bill Elliott win at Homestead in 2001 in a Dodge, 3rd victory in 2001 for a Dodge. So it is bittersweet to see. --Jeff Gordon won and finished ahead of 2012 nemesis Clint Bowyer on a fuel mileage run but hsi victory is overshadowed by the champion. Jeff has also conquered every track except for Kentucky, this year but I don't really consider that big of a deal since Kentucky came later in Gordon's career. --Last race for Matt Kenseth. Sent his team on the way out with a Daytona 500 and a Talladega 500 win. Best of luck for Kenseth. --Final race for Office Depot on the 14, they were part of Tony's entry to Stewart-Haas and Carl Edwards first years in Cup. --Last race for ARMY on the 39 and last race for ARMY, period as they will be gone from NASCAR. National Guard is not leaving the sport though and its first look at the 2013 scheme was in this race. --This will be Clint Bowyer's best points finish, despite the problems of Jimmie Johnson and more money at the end of the year does not hurt. --First year since 2005 where the challenger fails to finish and drops a spot of out the second position. Flubs --Dale Earnhardt Jr. did not win the Cup in his second year, it was Earnhardt Senior. ESPN makes another boneheaded blunder like it usually does in historic moments like this. --Jimmie Johnson's crew member forgot to put a lugnut or two on and he had to come back in and then the engine's rear end come apart and ended his title hopes which were very slim at best. Then Clint Bowyer overtook Johnson for 2nd in points while Johnson was in the garage. --Not a flub but Carl Edwards was suffering from laryngytis but his role with ESPN was to provide analysis so he was a good guy and still did analysis. Edwards would make a great analyst if he decided to stick with it. 558. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Danica won't be eligible for ROTY, because she ran more than seven races this year. 559. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have a feeling Gordon is going to have a surprise retirement." Bite your tongue...or fingers. 560. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) She is eligible because she didn't run for points in Cup, so she could've theoretically run the entire season in Cup and still be rookie eligible if she scored Nationwide points. 561. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #558 Yes she can. NASCAR made a new rule that as long as you're not running for Sprint Cup points, you can still run for ROTY regardless of how many races you've started in a year. Trevor Bayne could still run for ROTY if he ran a full Cup season. 562. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "^Danica won't be eligible for ROTY, because she ran more than seven races this year." NASCAR made a rule change in 2011 that rookie drivers can run more than seven races in a season and still be eligible for Rookie of the Year if they don't run for points in that series. Since Danica wasn't running for Cup points, she is still eligible for the award, which she will run for next season against Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. 563. 44andJoe posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >While I'm thinking about it, who won ROTY? Josh Wise? Stephen Leicht was leading the rookie standings after Phoenix. 564. Eric posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I happy to Brad winning the championship. This championship changes the legacy of Roger Penske as a NASCAR Car owner. Roger is already the best car owner owner ever in Auto Racing, but his legacy as a Car Owner in NASCAR was different. Roger had very good drivers as a NASCAR owner, but never the title before this year. Roger still needs the Brickyard 400 as a NASCAR car owner, but that is something Jack Roush doesn't have either as an owner. 565. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 36 48 Jimmie Johnson Rear Gear 37 32 Ken Schrader Engine 38 30 David Stremme Electrical 39 6 Ricky Stenhouse Jr Crash 40 26 Josh Wise Vibration 41 98 Michael McDowell Overheating 42 23 Scott Riggs Vibration 43 19 Mike Bliss Electrical 566. Eric posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My point for post 564 with Roger he won almost won every thing major in the cup series expect for the Brickyard 400 now after Brad's championship and that helps Roger Penske's legacy as a Cup owner in NASCAR. 567. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penske has had some near-misses in the past, such as Rusty in 1993. They put together an 8 win season in 1994 to follow that up, but wasn't in contention for the title despite being 3rd in points. And of course Kurt Busch was the highest non-HMS driver in 2009 in a year where HMS cars absolutely dominated the tour (hard to believe how far Kurt has allowed himself to fall since then!). So to see them finally get a Cup championship is thrilling. 568. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Kyle locked up the bonus for leading the most laps, so even if Jimmie has no problems, wins, and Brad finishes 16th, he still wins the Cup 569. cjs3872 posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I stated Eric, the Brickyard 400 is now the ONLY major thing in American racing that Roger Penske's never won, now that he has the Sprint Cup title. Otherwise, he's won literally everything major league auto racing in this country has to offer. And Ty, Roger Penske is not one of the greatest car owners in racing history. He is THE greatest car owner in racing history, and has held that title for many years, due mostly to his IndyCar sucess, but remember that he won big races in NASCAR as far back as 1974 and '75 with Bobby Allison, including the 1975 Southern 500 at Darlington, which might be the most emotional win Penske has ever had, because it was his first victory as a car owner after Mark Donohue's death in August, and Donohue spent a lot of time on the development of the AMC Matador Penske ran in NASCAR from 1972-'75, as well as being Penske's first superstar driver. In fact, I believe Penske himself was once named Sports Illustrated's top racer one year as a driver back in the mid 60s. Penske has won literally everything else, including the 24 Hours of Daytona with Donohue (and Chuck Parsons) in 1969, the Indianapolis 500 with nine different drivers (Donohue, Rick Mears, Danny Sullivan, Emerson Fitipaldi, Helio Castroneves, Gil DeFerran, Sam Hornish, Jr., and all three racing Unsers), the IndyCar title with numerous drivers (Tom Sneva, Mears, Al Unser, Sr. and Jr., Sullivan, Hornish, and DeFerran), the Daytona 500 in 2008 with Ryan Newman, the All-Star Race and Coca-Cola 600 with Kurt Busch in 2010 (Penske also won the All-Star Race in 2002 with Newman), the Southern 500 with Bobby Alison in 1975, the spring race at Talladega this year, and now the Sprint Cup championship this year, both with Brad Keselowski. And by the way, for those that think that Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. and the Dillon brothers look out of place with cowboy hats on (Stenhouse certainly doesn't), then what would you call the three drivers on the F1 podium after the race? After all, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, and Fernando Alonso all had cowboy hats on briefly after the F1 race in Austin, TX today. Now if that's not looking out of place, I don't know what is. That makes Stenhouse and the Dillon brothers wearing them look completely normal. 570. #Team24 posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JEFF GORDON PUTTING THE HATERS TO REST! HS IS THE MAN! KESO WILL BE A GREAT CHAMP! 571. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I love how Brad said he didn't want to finish 16th so he wouldn't have to hear that if Jimmie didn't have trouble and won that Jimmie would have won the title. I have really come around with my attitude toward Brad and his interviews tonight really made me realize why I like Brad now, especially his Sportscenter interview. That was a classic. 572. Mr X posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way, for those that think that Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. and the Dillon brothers look out of place with cowboy hats on (Stenhouse certainly doesn't), then what would you call the three drivers on the F1 podium after the race? After all, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, and Fernando Alonso all had cowboy hats on briefly after the F1 race in Austin, TX today. Now if that's not looking out of place, I don't know what is. That makes Stenhouse and the Dillon brothers wearing them look completely normal. CJS, you beat me to it. 573. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now CJS you owe everyone here one backflip no excuses 574. Sector posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @18fan, Matt Kenseth led the chase with 2 wins also. 575. 44andJoe posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >569. cjs3872 Don't forget that Penske's won the 12 Hours of Sebring, too. 576. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those F1 drivers did look out of place, but overall that event has to be considered a major success. Everybody loved the track and the crowds were phenomenal. 577. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, while the drivers who finished on the podium today in Austin, Texas (Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso) did look out of place, that was just for a photo op because of the race's setting, which was Texas. NASCAR does the same thing as they not only have the winners at Texas Motor Speedway wear a cowboy hat, but they also give them a pair of six-shooters filled with blanks in victory lane. I don't think you can compare what happened in Austin today to what Stenhouse and the Dillon boys have done all season. The Formula One drivers only wore cowboy hats for a photo op. Stenhouse and the Dillon boys are "bringing them back" as they say, as they wear them every week (although I commend Ty for not wearing one lately). Stenhouse looks better with it than the Dillons because he is a heel race car driver and a "gun slinger", but his boyish face and squeaky voice don't fit well with the hat. 578. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Doesn't Penske have an F1 win too, or am I wrong? 579. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NASCAR made a rule change in 2011 that rookie drivers can run more than seven races in a season and still be eligible for Rookie of the Year if they don't run for points in that series. Since Danica wasn't running for Cup points, she is still eligible for the award, which she will run for next season against Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. " If that's true then Landon Cassil would be Rookie of the Year 580. 18fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Penske does have an F1 win. I believe it was John Watson who won for Penske. 581. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Landon Cassill ran a lot of races in 2010 as a start and park driver before the rule was changed, hence, he's not eligible. 582. RaceFanX posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yup, John Watson won the 1976 Austrian Grand Prix for the Captain. Last win to date in F1 for an American team. 583. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If that's true then Landon Cassill would be Rookie of the Year" Landon Cassill ran 16 races in 2010, one year before the rule was changed, so he was ineligible for the award in 2011. Of course, he couldn't have won it in 2011 anyways because he elected to run for Nationwide points before the start of the season. Before this season, NASCAR made a change that would allow drivers to switch which series they raced for points in during the season, which we saw both Timmy Hill and Ryan Blaney do this season. 584. Rusty posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The end of the season gives me some hope that Kurt and the Furniture Row guys can have a solid season next year, maybe top 20 in points. 585. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The end of the season gives me some hope that Kurt and the Furniture Row guys can have a solid season next year, maybe top 20 in points." I don't know, I've been really impressed with them since he got in that car. If RCR is building decent enough cars next year, I think they've got a shot at Chase contention. 586. Nelson (9fan, 24hater) posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jeff Gordon wins a race he should of been parked for. Luckily no-one cars about him because Brad Keselowski is the Sprint Cup, which also makes him the first entrant in the 2022 All-Star race (unless rules are change between now and then). 587. Nelson (9fan, 24hater) posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) *cares *Cup champion, 588. Eric posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty, It isn't far off the Kurt Bush and Furniture Row Racing finish top 20 in points for next year. When I do my 2013 cup predictions sometime after Thanksgiving, Kurt is a driver that I was looking to mention as a driver that could grab one of the two chase wild card positions if he pulls off a win or 2 after the first 26 races of 2013. The question is could they pull it off for a whole season. Based on what I saw in 2011, I thought the 78 could get a top 20 to a top 15 in points in 2012. That is the question I have with the organization going into 2013 if Furniture Row Racing can finish they actually can finish in the top 20 in points. 589. Tyson posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Travis Kvapil actually was sponsored by Dr. Pepper tonight, not Burger King. 590. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Luckily no one cares about him" Have you not read the comments from a lot of us who did congratulate him on his win? You may not care about him, but there's a lot of us on here who do. I will go as far as to say that he is the second-most popular active driver on this board, with Brad Keselowski almost unanimously being the most popular. I understand that there are some people on here like yourself, DSFF, and Baker (who inaccurately called this the most undeserving win of all-time, as this wasn't even his most undeserving win of the season) who don't care for him, but to say that nobody cares about him getting his 87th career win on his 20th anniversary in NASCAR Cup competition is preposterous. 591. David posted: 11.18.2012 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Brad Keselowski is the Sprint Cup, which also makes him the first entrant in the 2022 All-Star race (unless rules are change between now and then)" Incorrect. The winner of the 2012 All-Star Race is the first entrant for the 2022 All-Star Race. Ironically, that is Jimmie Johnson. 592. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Kurt is actually more capable of making the Chase than he is winning a race next season for FRR/RCR. We saw that Kevin Harvick (who was the most underrated driver of the year for what he did in RCR's mediocre Cup equipment) could make the Chase this year for very slow RCR team, and I think Kurt will have about the same season next year as Harvick. Call me crazy, but I think Kurt will be on his best behavior next season because he has a chance to have some really good runs, while being below the radar because nobody's expecting much from him in FRR/RCR equipment. Because of that, I don't think he puts a lot of pressure on himself, especially after his humbling 2012 season, and is on his best behavior in 2013. I still think he'll have a great shot at winning on plate tracks, road courses, and short tracks, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's in Chase contention near the end of the regular season, with or without a win. 593. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) stephen leicht is the 2012 cup rookie of the year. 594. Paul posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Three streaks came to an end this weekend in Cup: - Ryan Newman's 11 consecutive seasons with a pole streak came to an end as he failed to earn a single pole this season. His streak began back in 2001 at Charlotte (at which he led the first 10 laps before crashing out and finishing 43rd), the year before his rookie season. His best start this season was 2nd at Daytona in July and the fall Talladega race. - Kurt Busch's 10 consecutive seasons with a win streak came to an end as he failed to reach victory lane this season. His streak began back in 2002 when he beat Jimmy Spencer at Bristol. His best finish this season was 3rd at Sonoma, although he could have won had his rear suspension not been damaged in the closing laps. - This will be the first time in nine years that the defending Sprint Cup champion won't be in the Daytona Shootout, as Brad Keselowski failed to win a pole this season. The last time the defending Cup champion missed the Daytona Shootout was 2004 because Matt Kenseth failed to win a pole the year before. Brad's best starting spot in 2012 was 2nd at the Bristol night race. 595. Nelson (9fan, 24hater) posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Oh yeah forgot about Jimmie, and what I meant by "no-one cares" was the fact that only 10% of the focus was on him, while everyone else was focusing on Brad. I'm a massive Gordon hater (as you can tell by my name), and I don't even realise Jeff was leading until 4 laps to go because I was so wrapped in Brad winning the Championship, it's just like last week, most people didn't care about the winner. Any who. 2012 Sprint Cup points standings using the 2012 Formula One points system (25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1), Jimmie wins his 6th Championship by 2 wins, tying him with Richard Petty for most Championships under the F1 system 1. Jimmie Johnson 342.5 2. Brad Keselowski 294 3. Denny Hamlin 284 4. Matt Kenseth 236 5. Kyle Busch 232 6. Clint Bowyer 230 7. Kasey Kahne 216 8. Greg Biffle 214 9. Jeff Gordon 212.5 10. Dale Earnhardt Jnr. 186.5 11. Tony Stewart 178.5 12. Martin Truex Jnr. 141.5 13. Kevin Harvick 109 14. Ryan Newman 101 15. Mark Martin 80 16. Carl Edwards 69 17. Joey Logano 63 18. Marcos Ambrose 52.5 19. Jeff Burton 46 20. Paul Menard 41 21. Brian Vickers 40 22. Aric Almirola 30 23. Kurt Busch 26 24. AJ Allemndinger 22 25. David Ragan 18 26. Regan Smith 16 27. Jamie McMurrary 11 28. Juan Pablo Montoya 8 29. Travis Kvapil 4 30. Bobby Labonte 3 31. Michael Waltrip 2 And the Chase, it's the same picture. Jimmie wins by a 3rd place finish. 1 Jimmie Johnson 124 2 Brad Keselowski 111 3 Kyle Busch 103 4 Clint Bowyer 90 5 Jeff Gordon 84.5 6 Denny Hamlin 77 7 Kasey Kahne 74 8 Matt Kenseth 65 9 Greg Biffle 44 10 Tony Stewart 41.5 11 Ryan Newman 38 12 Dale Earnhardt Jr. 14 596. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Using the F1 points system for NASCAR would be very weird, no offense. I don't think it would really work. 597. BON GORDON posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #286 I care. And so do a lot of other people. God don't get me started. Anyway I'd like to say that overall my prediction post early this morning was pretty accurate but i'm sure a lot of people thought the same thing would happen in today's race as well. I can't seem to predict much of anything else. Here was my predicitons before the 2012 season began: 01.27.12 - 1:54 am Well I guess I'll make my predictions for 2012 as well: Daytona 500 Champion: JEFF GORDON- Man is this a tough one because anyone could win it but I predict that Jeff Gordon (BIG SURPRISE) will win with drafting help from his new teammate Kasey Kahne. Gordon is never really thought of as a great plate racer out there but BIG DADDY is one of the all-time best. I feel that Gordon and crew chief BIG ALAN G will have the right package and be in the righ place at the right time to win his fourth and final Daytona 500. He was fast in Winter testing however i don't know how much it really matters but whatever. Unlike the last couple years this years winner will not be as Big of a surprise. Southern 500 winner: DENNY HAMLIN- For me it was between Jeff Gordon and Denny Hamlin. Too much goes wrong for the 24 team however they will still run strong in the event. 2012 will be a better year for Hamlin and he will win his first race at the famed Darlington Raceway. Coka Cola 600 winner: KASEY KAHNE- I totally agree with Sean's post. Kasey Kahne loves Charlotte Motor Speedway and finally has the equipment to go out and dominate the race. However he will have challenges from Jimmie Johnson, Brian Vickers, Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, and Carl Edwards. Brickyard 400 winner: JEFF GORDON- I also agree with Sean's prediction of the Brickyard 400 winner. Gordon will not have as good of a car as he did in 2011 but will use strategy (YES I SAID STRATEGY which this team is not known for very often) to win the Brickyard similar to what team DuPont did in the year 2001. Gordon will qualify bad (mid 20s or so), struggle most of the race, take two tires or whatever in the late stages, and be there at the end when it counts most. CHASE DRIVERS (in no specific order): Kyle Busch, Tony Stewart, Kasey Kahne, Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin, Jimmie Johnson, Matt Kenseth, Kevin Harvick, Carl Edwards, Greg Biffle, AJ Allmendinger, and Brad Keselowski. ROTY: Don't care, sorry. Hasent been interesting in years... Most Wins: Jimmie Johnson and Kyle Busch- 5 wins each YOUR 2012 NASCAR SPRINT CUP CHAMPION: I have thought about this for a while now and I could very easily put my own foot in my my mouth but as of right now i think Carl Edwards is as hungry as ever. While losing the championship that way is tough he's still young and has a lot of years left. he's got a strong team behind him and will finally win his first title. This is Carl's time everyone. 2012 Final Points Predictions: Champion: Carl Edwards- 4 Wins, 15 Top Fivess, 24 Top Tens 2nd: Jimmie Johnson- 5 Wins, 16 Top Fives, 23 Top Tens 3rd: Denny Hamlin- 3 Wins, 13 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 4th: Jeff Gordon- 2 Wins, 14 Top Fives, 21 Top Tens 5th: Kyle Busch- 5 Wins, 12 Top Fives, 20 Top Tens 6th: Kasey Kahne- 1 Win, 13 Top Fives, 18 Top Tens 7th: Tony Stewart- 2 Wins, 11 Top Fives, 18 Top Tens 8th: Matt Kenseth- 1 Win, 12 Top Fives, 17 Top Tens 9th: Kevin Harvick- 0 Wins, 11 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 10th: AJ Allmendinger- 1 Win, 9 Top Fives, 16 Top Tens 11th: Brad Keselowski- 1 Win, 9 Top Fives, 13 Top Tens 12th: Greg Biffle- 0 Wins, 10 Top Fives, 15 Top Tens Hey my guess is as good as anyones. Can't wait for the new season to begin! Before too long I'll make my 2013 NASCAR Sprint Cup Predictions. 598. JRacingFast posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone happen to know who won Rookie of the year? I assume it was Josh Wise 599. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am pretty sure Stephen Leicht won. According to NASCAR.com, Leicht has 98 rookie points while Wise has 74. 600. 44andJoe posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's always the "rookie panel" that can giveth discetionary points, though... >ROTY: Don't care, sorry. Hasent been interesting in years... Next year we actually have two legitimate rookies, though, unlike the last two years. (At least two. There was the rumour of Brian Scott going to Phoenix Racing, but then the next rumour was that Phoenix would be shutting down...) 601. Schroeder51 posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This'll be the first legit ROTY battle since...wow, 2009. Like I said, I expect Stenhouse to outrun Danica by a country mile (though I expect them to BOTH have a good number of DNFs due to accidents), but I would NOT be surprised if Danica is crowned ROTY at the end of the year instead. 602. ch posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor changes... 34 - Front Row Motorsports 37 - C&C Audio Video & Appliance, Inc. / JPO Absorbants 93 - Dr. Pepper 98 - K-Love 603. murb posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This'll be the first legit ROTY battle since...wow, 2009." Actually, if you really think about it, it will be the first ROTY "battle" with notable drivers since 2006. 2009 pitted Joey Logano (in much superior JGR equipment) against Scott Speed (an ice cold rookie driving for a still developing Red Bull team). 2008 pitted Regan Smith (who has now turned out to be good, but back then he was pretty much a no name) against a bunch of open wheelers who were making their first foray into stock cars (Hornish, Franchitti, Villeneuve, McDowell). So when you took all of those guys and put them against Regan, who had a ton more experience in stock cars, it was pretty much a no contest. 2007 was won by another open wheeler in JPM, but again, he really had no competition. Also in the class were David Reutimann (who missed a bunch of races for MWR in their rookie season as a team), AJ Allmendinger (who missed a bunch of races for Red Bull in their rookie season), and Paul Menard (for a DEI team that was on its death bed). David Ragan was also in the class that year, and you could argue that he should have contended for it (in a Roush car, mind you), but he was completely lost all year so Montoya beat him. It wasn't really that much of a battle. So I am looking at this Stenhouse - Danica ROTY battle to be the most competitive one the Cup Series has seen since 2006. That was really the last class that had some notable up and comers in it (Hamlin, Truex, Bowyer). And, like many, I really expect Stenhouse to sort of have a wake up call type of year, so I think the battle for ROTY between him and Danica will actually be pretty close. 604. ch posted: 11.18.2012 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Furniture Row Racing may have actually made a decent choice in Kurt Busch (stats wise). Regan Smith: 30 Races, 1 top fives, 3 top tens, Avg Fin of 21.7, 10 LLF Kurt Busch: 6 Races, 0 top fives, 3 top tens, Avg Fin of 14.3, 4 LLF They are also riding a streak of 3 consecutive top 10's going into 2013. I am going to go ahead and put them down for my darkhorse pick to make the chase next year. I also feel alot better about the whole situation now that Regan Smith looks like he will be more than fine next year. I think that he, Brian Vickers, and Trevor Bayne will be the top 3 in the Nationwide Series next year. In what order? I'll have to wait and see! 605. Timmy Quivy posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chevrolet sweeps Ford EcoBoost weekend. 606. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well folks, it is midnight here on the East Coast, and after 24 ounces of Miller Lite, I have to say it is settling in. My guy, whose coattails I have ridden since that Memphis Truck race, is the Cup champion. What a ride it has been, and I think the future looks even brighter. Of the other two modern era drivers to win within their first 3 full time seasons, they didn't go away. Plus I feel Brad and Paul realize what they have in each other, and won't let that go. With that said, here are some questions regarding 2013: -How will the 2 team fare? Even though they won the Cup, only the 48 has put together more than one year at a time of championship contention since 1998 no matter whether they won or not. But this 2 team has been defying every bit of conventional wisdom since Paul moved to Cup. Should be interesting. I feel confident for the future. -Is this the end of the 48 dynasty. Seems like every dynasty comes to a screeching halt (at least as far as titles) when they seem to be at their peak cause a new dynasty comes along and rips it from them. Plus, will teams look at the way the 2 team stared them down and say "hey, they are human"? -Bowyer and the 15 team, start of a hell of a run or a honeymoon year? And can MWR keep it up or not? -How will JGR do now with great driver and stabilizing influence Matt Kenseth in the fold? Do I see a monster season from Kenseth next year? -Roush Racing: Edwards, Biffle, and Stenhouse, recipe for disaster? -The RCR/Harvick lame duck year. Can this already volitile combo get any more unstable? 607. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, for historical context, this was the 8th time JJ has been in the title mix in the end, and his record fell to 5-3. Earnhardt also had 8 shots, and had a sparkling 7-1 record. Jimmie really needed to be 6-2 to look better. Instead, he is barely ahead of Gordon's 4-3. 608. Eric posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, There is one question you forgot. Will Kevin Harvick and the 29 team share notes with the 78 team well since Kevin is a lame duck driver? I am mentioning this because I what I heard last month, it sounds like Richard Childress is treating the 78 car of Furniture Row Racing like it is another RCR team. That means RCR really is a 4 car operation despite the 78 is located in Denver,CO. Next year each race organization can select 4 cup tracks to test at. That means RCR and Furniture Row Racing will be sharing notes for tests at cup tracks next year. You and I know that the 31 and 27 teams are not the ideal teams to share notes with the 78 team since Kurt is a much better driver than Jeff Burton at this point in Jeff's career and Paul is not close to Kurt in talent. If the 29 team has issues due to Kevin being in a lame duck season, the 78 team can't get much help from the 29. 609. cjs3872 posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that Roush combination, especially where Stenhouse was involved, may be doomed to disaster next year. Actually, I think Carl Edwards may have a very good season next year with Jimmy Fennig as his crew chief, and Greg Biffle may have a typical year for him, which would be 1-3 wins and a top 10-15 finish in points, depending on how many times he crashes, but I think Stenhouse's rookie season may be a train wreck. In fact, don't be surprise if Danica wins the Rookie of the Year in the Cup series next year, because she's not likely to crash as many cars, even if she's not running fast. I think Stenhouse may crash in as many as 12-15 races next year, if not more than that. And he showed that he won't even follow directives from his own team when he was told not to race Brian Scott, and continued to run hard and race him, even when he didn't need to. Contrast that to what Jeff Gordon did at the end of the race, when he waved Carl Edwards by on the last lap, or even Brad Keselowski, as he was very conservative for much of the day, except when racing Jimmie Johnson, though that was more of a mind game than it was anything else. That's my one major beef with Stenhouse. He doesn't race intelligently, which is one reason why Mike Kelley will be happy to have a guy like Trevor Bayne next year, because he actually races intelligently and won't risk a crash for no reason. And is it any surprise that Stenhouse cause the only incident-related caution in the race when he had a tire failure and hit the wall? Now this was no fault of Stenhouse, but with him running full-time, there may not be the dearth of cautions there were in a number of races next year, because he may be good for one caution or two every race. I predict he'll be involved in at least 20 cautions next year for spins and crashes, not counting engine failures and oil downs. 610. murb posted: 11.19.2012 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I've just officially finished my 2013 Cup Series predictions. I went through every full time team and gave a rundown about how I think their season will go. It's pretty lengthy, so I'll probably post these team-by-team predictions up here in three parts or so on Wednesday. I think its safe to say that next year is gonna be interesting. The key will be the new car. In 2007, Hendrick found something with the COT and they never looked back. So if one particular team does that with this car, it may be a long season for the rest of the teams. 611. Mr X posted: 11.19.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just a quick small update on my points system from today's season finale, though I will post a set of more complete standings later. For now here is what you would care the most about. Top 2 in the standings after all 36 races, without the chase. Driver-Points-Bonus Points-(-Deficit) 1. BRAD KESELOWSKI!!-39867-435-(-Leader) 2. Jimmie Johnson-39840-956-(-27) Without the chase Brad won the title by the narrowest of margins, just 27 points, in fact if he wouldn't have moved up a spot to 15th from 16th during the final run after that last pitstop, he would've lost the title by just 5 points. Also without the chase this was the 2nd closest points battle in the modern era under my system, with Petty beating Waltrip by just 11pts in 1979 the closest. Top 2 in the standings after all 36 races, with the chase. Driver-Points-Bonus Points-(-Deficit) 1. BRAD KESELOWSKI!!-52717-173-(-Leader) 2. Jimmie Johnson-51741-361-(-976) 612. BON GORDON posted: 11.19.2012 - 4:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also would like to add how much I love Homestead Miami Speedway. Ever since the repave in 2003 this track produces great racing. It kinda reminds me of the old configured Atlanta Speedway. If we cant have the season finale there, then this tack is as good as it gets in my eyes. 613. Ivan Balakhonov posted: 11.19.2012 - 6:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 609. cjs3872 I will watch how happy Mike Kelley will be when Trevor fails to do what Ricky was doing constantly, that is bringing the car to the Victory Lane. Honestly, all this criticism of Ricky's driving style is getting out of hand. I'm sure the transition will be diffcult for him, but this guy proved he can race and he won two titles in Nationwide in a very spectacular fashion. 614. JRacingFast posted: 11.19.2012 - 7:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those who havent seen the video yet of Brad on Sports Center Here it is.... PARTY ON BRAD! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5uo5eezS1Q 615. jabber1990 posted: 11.19.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) when was the last time dodge won a sprint cup championship? 616. Anonymous posted: 11.19.2012 - 10:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @615 1975 617. cjs3872 posted: 11.19.2012 - 11:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ivan Balaknonov, the reason I say that Mike Kelley may be happier with Trevor Bayne has nothing to do with Trevor's driving style compared to Ricky's, though Trevor's not likely to crash as much because he won't take unnecessary risks, but my opinion on that has more to do with their respective attitudes. As the season wore on, Ricky became harder and harder to deal with. You can tell that from the radio communications, and what he apparently did, keying the mic so that he couldn't hear his spotter and crew chief telling him not to race, because he didn't need to, proves that more than anything else. He wouldn't listen to any advice, and didn't even want to hear his crew chief giving him lap times. And Ricky's always had somewhat of an attitude problem, something that Bayne has never been accused of having. But make no mistake about it, Bayne's a competitor. His confronting Austin Dillon after the Nationwide race at Bristol after being flat taken out proves that. But he just won't take the chances that Stenhouse will, unless he has to. Bayne's a lot like Terry Labonte and Benny Parsons, in that they're just happy to run in the top 5-8 during the majority of the race, not caring about leading when it doesn't matter, but come the end of the race, when it does matter, he'll stick his nose in there with anyone. His win in the Nationwide race at Texas last fall showed that, because he wasn't afraid to mix it up with Carl Edwards on that restart, and when he got in front, he made no mistakes. And Keselowski's title was the first for Dodge since King Richard himself back in 1975. Aside from Petty, who also won the title with Dodge in 1972 and '74, Dodge's only other Cup titles came in 1966 with David Pearson and in 1970 with Bobby Isaac. 618. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My day after 2013 predictions of who will make the cha$e, in no particular order. Brad, Carl, Biff, JJ, Jeff, Kasey, Tony, Harvick, Matt, KyBu, Denny, Clint in no order. 619. David posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the first time in Cup history that the top two drivers in points failed to win a pole. 620. David posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 10 in Sprint Cup Series PEER *Drivers must have competed in at least six races 1. Brian Vickers - 4.000 2. Jimmie Johnson - 3.583 3. Brad Keselowski - 3.250 4. Kyle Busch - 2.944 5. Greg Biffle - 2.639 6. Matt Kenseth - 2.625 7. Clint Bowyer - 2.556 8. Denny Hamlin - 2.500 9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 2.368 10. Kasey Kahne - 2.139 20 out of 50 eligible drivers were at least serviceable. 621. Timmy Quivy posted: 11.19.2012 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AB, still not sure why NASCAR.com hasn't corrected their public website results, but NASCAR Media post-race report shows BK in 15th to Denny Hamlin in 24th as completing 266 laps, which is definitely accurate. 622. Rocky Lore posted: 11.19.2012 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this is why some teams start and park most of the season: To run at least one full race when they can, like what the 37 did. 623. Eric posted: 11.19.2012 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since DaleSrFanForever mentioned what driver he thinks will make the chase in 2013, I am going to share a prediction of what chase drivers will not be in the chase for 2013. I don't see Truex making it. I am saying that because I think he needs a win to get in next year. Kevin Harvick isn't going to be in the chase. I say that because I think he lame duck status is going to affect the 29 team a lot. I going by the fact Elliott Sadler's team in the Nationwide series wasn't the same after he announced he is leaving RCR after the season. The other thing I see RCR not giving the 29 team the equipment as a result. It is very possible that Richard could giving the 78 team better equipment than the 29 team matter of fact as a result. I am going by what Richard said Race Hub last month about treating the 78 team like another RCR team despite being located in Denver, CO. Dale Jr. is another driver who think will not make the chase. Dale was not the same driver after his concussion at Kansas during a tire test and his performance drop is proof of that. After Dale got after 2 weeks, he still didn't quite the same driver before the concussion.Since Dale has time off now, it is questionable it Dale will be back to the way he way before the concussion. That means Dale could be more cautious on the track as a result of the amount of concussions. 624. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2013 may be the toughest year to predict due to the car switch. With that said, here is a more extensive and in depth analysis on what I expect in 2013 by manufacturer and team. Fords: I expect the addition of Penske to raise their entire profile. Penske Racing: I think Brad should definitely make the cha$e. Whether or not he will repeat remains to be seen. Ever since 1998 ended, drivers that were in hot contention for the Cup title, whether they won or not, have a letdown year with the exception of the 48 team. But then again, he has been defying past history and the conventional wisdom which comes from that from day one. A repeat would not be surprising to me. As for Logano, he will do what he did at JGR. 17th-21st. That is just who he is. Roush: Carl is due for a comeback year, especially with Jimmy Fenning. Biff has had trouble putting two good years together, but I think he makes the cha$e due to Ford's overall strength. As for Swervin Stenhouse, no it definitely won't be pretty, but I seriously doubt it will be as bad some are predicting. Especially those that are saying Danica may beat him for ROY. There is no way in hell that happens. I think it will resemble Gordon's '93 season. And although there will be a lot of bent sheet metal, he wins ROY easily. Petty: My personal pick for a surprise. Marcos and Aric showed speed towards the end of the year, and with Ford being better, I look for them to scare a cha$e spot, especially Marcos. I think he will get an oval win to go along with at least one road course win. That might get him in. Front Row: Pretty much the same with better in race runs which will ultimately unravel. Chevrolet: Goes as HMS goes. They usually adapt the quickest to changes. HMS: The Empire should start off quick much like they did in the first few races with the COT in '07, like they did with the new Monte Carlo in '01, like the did with the new Monte Carlo in '95. JJ, Gordon, and Kasey are pretty much locks for the cha$e. June, however, I look to have a down year. He has never put together more than 2 respectable years together before. I think he checks out mentally again next year. SHR: Will be interesting to see what Danica's effect will be. Obviously she will bring nothing to the table except sponsorship dollars which will be offset by the cars she will crash. Although Smoke is also a cha$e lock, he will have his very short patience tested all year having to answer questions about her. I think that affects him. And Newman will be forgotten until they realize they need to sign him to an extension, unless they don't want to. They also have to make room for Harvick and be distracted by that. A lot of distractions? Smoke has a mediocre year (by his standards), Newman disappears again, and Danica races with the Front Row and BK Racing cars every week, getting in wrecks, getting in feuds with nobodies, fun times all around. RCR: I think Harvick makes the cha$e as he usually thrives when a disaster is expected, but bombs in the final 10 as Childress gives him leftover engines from 1992. Burton continues his downward slide and Menard is Menard. Meanwhile, RC devotes too much time and resources to his 4th team..... FRR: They will improve due to the support, but KuBu just isn't the driver to raise a team like this to cha$e caliber despite his talent. He will still wreck a lot, make enemies, still have diarrhea of the mouth, etc. But they will have some outstanding runs which will have everyone proclaiming "It was all Regan's fault!" BS which will irritate me. Badly. Ganassi: They will improve from their putrid last two seasons with HMS engines, but will need more to make it back to '09-'10 form. Toyota: I expect the two big teams to go in two different directions. JGR: They will make a lot of noise now that dead weight Logano is gone and one of the best out there now, Kenseth, steps in. All 3 make the cha$e. I think Matt has a big year as far as wins. I also think KyBu and Denny will win 4 races each. And I think the title will be fought for by either Matt or Denny. MWR: I think they take a step backwards after this incredible year. I think the new car will throw them a curve as they have had issues adapting in the past, as has new competition director Scott Miller. They will still be respectable, I think Bowyer makes the cha$e, but I think Truex goes back to 2011 form, and the inconsistency of drivers in the #55 car hurt them with the new car. 625. David posted: 11.19.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think it will resemble Gordon's '93 season." That is my exact prediction on Stenhouse's rookie year. I even stated this a few weeks ago. 626. RaceFanX posted: 11.19.2012 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor: #99 Carl Edwards- Fastenal / Aflac (Edwards' car had the usual Fastenal blue-and-white paint job but had Aflac on the quarter panels, interesting combo) 627. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) One thing I would like to mention. During Brad's rise through the NASCAR ranks, the three established Cup guys who gave him the most shit were Denny Hamlin, Kyle Busch, and Carl Edwards. Yet he won the Cup before any of them have. Take that you whiny divas. And I REALLY love this video now (starts at 2:40): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuIhhjN78b0 And this video shows why Brad is a Cup champ and Denny isn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD2JgAmjLAU&feature=related And hell, there are about a million videos of Kyle Busch trashing Brad. Kyle can't even make the damn cha$e consistently. Brad: 1 championship (2 Top 5s) in 3 full seasons, Kyle: 0 championships (1 distant Top 5) in 8 full seasons. Kyle Busch, is indeed, an ass. 628. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.19.2012 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love this picture. Brian France standing there while his new champion is chugging a giant beer. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2012/11/18/brad-keselowski-a-wildly-new-champion-for-nascar/1713361/ 629. RICHARDSON posted: 11.19.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DODGE LAST RACE OF NASCAR 630. Paul posted: 11.19.2012 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, in all fairness to Carl, he did come as close to winning a championship as you can get without actually winning it last year, and is the only one of those four drivers to be a serious Cup title contender on more than one occasion. That being said, while he, Denny, and Kyle were busy being shit disturbers to Brad during his two years at JRM and his first year at Penske, Brad was steadily rising up the NASCAR ranks and was more focused on getting better as a driver than getting involved in silly feuds that didn't involve the championship. It all paid off this year as Carl and Kyle combined for two wins across all three national series and Denny was a fringe title contender at best, while Brad became the first champion to lead the series in overall points since Jimmie Johnson in '09, and proved once and for all that he truly belongs in the Cup Series and silenced all of his critics by looking one of the greatest drivers of all-time in the eye, didn't blink, and made JJ flinch in the process. But then again, you can't say that those feuds he had with those three drivers didn't help him when he had to go toe-to-toe with JJ. In fact, I think what he learned in those years helped him because it only enforced the fact that actions speak louder than words. Denny proved to us at Charlotte '08 that he can't handle hard racing with another driver. Carl Edwards proved to us at Atlanta '10 and Gateway '10 that he isn't the nice "aw shucks" guy that he portrayed himself to being. And Kyle Busch has proved during his entire NASCAR career that he can't stand it when he's not head-and-shoulders above everybody else. Meanwhile Brad was busy minding his own business, learning how to drive these race cars at an elite level, and racing people hard in the closing laps of the race because he felt that he still had something to prove. The difference I see between he and the other three is that Brad never feels like he's the best and has to prove himself each and every lap, while the other three feel like they are one of the best and seem content on where they are. That attitude may win you one championship, but it's not going to win you multiple championships, and I think Brad is more than capable of doing so. Next year may be an "off year" to some respect, but I think by 2014 he and his team will be back to 2012 form and be a serious title contender once again. And for what it's worth, Carl Edwards (and his hoarse voice) seemed pretty excited about having Brad has a Ford/Roush-Yates teammate next year, so maybe there is a high level of respect between them going into 2013. 631. Talk4Tar posted: 11.19.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I will watch how happy Mike Kelley will be when Trevor fails to do what Ricky was doing constantly, that is bringing the car to the Victory Lane. Honestly, all this criticism of Ricky's driving style is getting out of hand. I'm sure the transition will be diffcult for him, but this guy proved he can race and he won two titles in Nationwide in a very spectacular fashion." People will stop criticizing his driving style, when he quits hitting stuff. 632. 44andJoe posted: 11.19.2012 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the ROTY "battle": the official points report is Stephen Leicht 126, Josh Wise 111. Of course the "rookie panel" has yet to weigh in. 633. 44andJoe posted: 11.19.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, Kyle Busch is apparently folding his N'wide team, as he'll be splitting a car with Drew Herring and Darrell Wallace, Jr for JGR next year. Wallace is also supposedly penciled in to drive a Truck for KBM. 634. Jim Davis posted: 11.19.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Top 10 in Sprint Cup Series PEER..." David, are you the David Smith of the Motorsports Analytics site? If not, you really shouldn't post his premium content. 635. David posted: 11.19.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, are you the David Smith of the Motorsports Analytics site? If not, you really shouldn't post his premium content." No, I'm not, but then again, I'm not posting all his premium content. I could have just as easily posted all of the PEER rankings. That doesn't get me off the hook, does it? 636. David posted: 11.19.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim Davis is right. I'm not going to post anything from MotorsportsAnalytics.com anymore that is premium. 637. Baker posted: 11.19.2012 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Obviously I am a Brad Keselowski fan now(#2 to Tony Stewart no one is going to pass him for me), but the Carl Edwards/Brad Keselowski talk is completely unfair to Carl Edwards. DSFF and others are acting like Carl Edwards was just bullying Keselowski around. I remember there fued and I remember TWO immature punks who thought they were better than they were. It took TWO drivers for things to get the way they did between the two of them. Brad Keselowski has obviously grown a ton as a person and race car driver since then and will continue to get better. I would not right Carl Edwards off either. It is not like Carl Edwards choked away that Championship last year. He had some crazy average finish in the chase something like 5.7 or so. He raced a great race and led the most laps in the race that counted. He just so happened to be up against one of the greatest race car drivers of this generation who happened to have his head on straight and determined to win the championship. If you put Keselowski in that situation last year he loses to Stewart. If you put Edwards in this situation this year and Edwards beats Johnson. I really think Edwards is going to be a threat next year. 638. JMAX posted: 11.19.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fact:Every driver who won the chase has or had a partnership or affiliations with Hendrick: 2004:Kurt Busch (Drove for Phoenix Racing, which is affiliated with Hendrick) 2005:Tony Stewart (Now owns a team that is affiliated with Hendrick) 2006-2010:Jimmie Johnson(Hendrick driver) 2011:Tony Stewart (Owns team, affiliated with Hendrick) 2012:Brad Keselowski (Drove for Hendrick back in 2008-2009) 639. 18fan posted: 11.19.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica won Most Popular Driver in the Nationwide Series and Nelson Piquet, Jr. won it for the Truck Series. 640. Talon64 posted: 11.19.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a couple of free articles from Motorsports Analytics. The first one's about Keselowski: http://www.motorsportsanalytics.com/free-articles/2012-1118-keselowski.html And this one is the updated prospect rankings: http://www.motorsportsanalytics.com/prospects.html 641. Baker posted: 11.19.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Ryan Blaney in the prospect rankings? How does he come up with these numbers? You cannot tell me Kyle Larson is only the 13th best driving prospect out there. 642. 18fan posted: 11.19.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't see how Allgaier is still ranked that high. 643. cjs3872 posted: 11.19.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I think the reason guys like Kyle Larson are ranked so low, and I haven't seen the list, but the reason guys like him are ranked so low has to do with how far away they may be from hitting the big time, and so much can happen between now and then. Meanwhile, those that are already doing well in the Nationwide and Truck Series are ranked higher because they're already in one of the three premier series. After all, what happens to Larson if his development progam with Ganassi went by the wayside? Even as good as he appears to be, he'll be going nowhere fast. That's why when I list the drivers I have hope for in the future, I only list those in the Nationwide and Truck Series, because the top team owners may be exposed to what they can do. but if a driver is in a lower series, the chances of a top team owner noticing what such a driver can do is considerably less, and if development deals fall apart as they did several years ago, then these young drivers will have nowhere to go. In fact, I would not currently have Larson in my top ten to watch, simply because he's too far away from a Cup ride to list adequately. Meanwhile, I like the prospects for guys like Allgaier, the Dillon brothers, and Trevor Bayne in the Nationwide Series, and guys like Piquet, Buescher, and Kligerman in the Truck Series, and only Bayne among those drivers may even be on shaky footing, simply because of sponsorship issues at Roush, especially considering his history of being released for that reason. But guys like Chase Elliott, Corey LaJoie, Brett Moffitt, Darrell Wallace, Jr., Larson, and Dylan Kwasniewski are simply too far away from the big time to predict how their careers might progress. There's a chance that any or all of them may make it, but there's a chance that most of them won't, simply because of money and ride issues, so I can't put them on any list of drivers to watch for the future. 644. 44andJoe posted: 11.20.2012 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >No Ryan Blaney in the prospect rankings? Blaney doesn't meet the criteria to be included ("competed in 50% of the races of the series of record"). >Danica won Most Popular Driver in the Nationwide Series ... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA 645. ch posted: 11.20.2012 - 10:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think that KBM will still have their NW team next year. I'm pretty sure that Kyle just wants to win a race next year which is why he'll be driving the JGR equipment. 646. Smiff_2 posted: 11.20.2012 - 11:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, now that I've had a couple of days to digest everything....it's time to celebrate!!! How about it, boys? HE DID IT!!! This caterpillar's officially a butterfly and he's not gonna stop flying anytime soon! The next 10 years are gonna be f***ing AWESOME to watch! Oh, Penske's switching to Ford next year? Who gives a shit!? Does anybody *really* think that's gonna slow that 2 team down? No friggin' way! I will say it wouldn't be out of the question to expect a few hiccups early in the year, but you can rest assured....Brad and his guys will BE THERE at the end. 2013, here we come!!! 647. Scott B posted: 11.20.2012 - 1:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penske's switch to Ford shouldn't slow them. I'll be intrested to see how that affects the Petty teams, though, especially the #43, which was building some late season momentum. They'll move down one spot in the pecking order at Ford, but the overall effect of having another good team to share an engine program with may offset that. Logano at Penske will be intersting, too. He wouldn't have been my first choice, but he did show some signs of improvement this season (more in NNW that Cup). He could turn out to be decent with a change of scenery (1 or 2 wins a season), though not the championship caliber driver he was once hyped to be. Or, he could just backslide to his mid-pack form now that he has a new contract inked. Stenhouse should win ROTY easily. Doesn't that point system still allow a full-time candidate to discard their worst finishes? With a bunch of mulligans for the races where he DNF's due to crashes, he should have no problem distancing himself from the Princess. Ricky will be a threat to finish in the top 10 anywhere, Danica only at plate tracks or if fuel mileage or pit strategy come into play, or if there is some kind of epic late race wreck taking out good cars. DSFF, good analysis (post #624), I'm mostly in agreement. 648. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.20.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I echo that Smiff. As much as I love Dodge, we have to realize Brad was pretty much all alone out there. Who did he have to get info from? That 22 car was a mess all year. Meanwhile Jimmie had his three teammates and their teams along with the SHR bunch, and next year, the Ganassi cars. Next year Brad can get info from the Roush drivers and the Petty drivers. That is why, although I absolutely can't stand Richie Rich Logano, it may have been a stroke of genius getting him in the 22. Logano will roll over for him and play wingman while he gets real info from the other guys. And btw, thanks for taking time out from making smoking hot love to join us Smiff :) Kidding, HELL YEAH, WE DID IT!!! 649. Smiff_2 posted: 11.20.2012 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, I had to come back *eventually* and join the rest of y'all in reality....lol. And what a SWEET reality it is! Looks like I'm gonna have to find me a blue Ford for next year, cause my blue Dodge Intrepid with the #2 on the hood is officially out-of-style! Gotta stay true to my boy in the blue deuce! Hey DSFF or anybody else on here....you possibly interested in linking up in REAL life, like on Facebook perhaps? I have only 3 fellow fans on my facebook (one of them being RacRef poster Thomas, one being a close friend, and the other being my recently-converted girlfriend) Just a thought.... (P.S.- If you wanted to, I'd be sure not to reveal your true indentity on here....lol) 650. cjs3872 posted: 11.20.2012 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And of course Scott B, let's not forget how Penske rejoining the Ford ranks might affect the Wood Brothers in the races they run, as well. In the next couple of days, possibly even later today, I'll probably be posting what next year's line-up may look like, especially the full-time teams that figure to run the full races, plus selected part-time teams. I can only list those I know of at this moment, and things can change. I'll probably do it in a blog so as not to clutter this comments page too much. Later around Chrictmas and New Years, I'll be posting my 2013 predictions on both this page and putting up a blog about it, as well. And I'll be coming out with a series of "best ever" lists, just to keep the racing fans busy this winter, so watch for this action, and there may be a few surprises, as well. 651. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.20.2012 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff_2, are you the same guy who used to be Smiff_99? 652. murb posted: 11.20.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like it's official guys: Elliott Sadler and his sponsor One Main Financial will be moving over to Joe Gibbs Racing in 2013. Elliott will drive the 11 car (replacing Brian Scott), and he will surely be a championship contender. 653. George posted: 11.20.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This just in: Danica Patrick and her husband are divorcing after 7 years of marriage. Now she is free to pursue her engagement to long-time lover Sam Hornish, Jr. 654. murb posted: 11.20.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My prediction: She'll be Danica Stewart within 2 years. 655. Talon64 posted: 11.20.2012 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No Ryan Blaney in the prospect rankings? How does he come up with these numbers? You cannot tell me Kyle Larson is only the 13th best driving prospect out there." This is the key to why lower series drivers are ranked lower: "A Prospect Score is the result of an objective formula that combines the driver's Production in Equal Equipment Rating (PEER) >>> and the serviceability (number of serviceable drivers among drivers eligible) in the prospect's series of record during the decided time frame." <<< So basically, it factors the competitiveness of the series. So you can see that Nationwide and Trucks are fairly equal, then it goes K&N East > K&N West > ARCA based on how their highest producers are ranked amongst each other. Even though Larson's only 13th in the overall rankings, he's right there with Corey LaJoie as far as the top prospects out of K&N East this season. Which shows that Larson's ready to take the next step up the ladder since he's proven he's at the top of the class in the regional series. Him and LaJoie, although I don't know what LaJoie's going to be doing next season. "I don't see how Allgaier is still ranked that high." Allgaier had his career-best PEER this season, even though his results weren't career-bests. It's probably due to Turner Motorsports having a bit of a downturn compared to 2011, with only 2 wins and the #38 and #30 struggling with consistency even with guys like Kasey Kahne and James Buescher driving them. But I don't know what formula he uses to derive team performance, since I'm not a subscriber. But he did get one thing wrong on the prospects list: Buescher should be rated based on his Truck season and not Nationwide since he ended up with more Truck starts than Nationwide starts. Still, 4th based on a partial Nationwide schedule is pretty great. Or even if it's a typo and that's his Truck season, still impressive. 656. David posted: 11.20.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone else think that NASCAR is screwing over Sara Christian by saying Danica Patrick is the highest finishing female in points in NASCAR history?? Since when did they start counting records across all three series, starts and wins notwithstanding? Plus, this is a COMPLETELY different era than 1949. This pertains to my earlier comment, post #352. 657. joey2448 posted: 11.20.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since the news came out that Danica is getting divorced, the Twitter-sphere has been loaded with hilarious tweets! 658. David posted: 11.20.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's probably due to Turner Motorsports having a bit of a downturn compared to 2011, with only 2 wins and the #38 and #30 struggling with consistency even with guys like Kasey Kahne and James Buescher driving them." Turner Motorsports-2011 Nationwide Series Relevance #30 team relevance: 67.65(%) #31 team relevance: 88.24 #32 team relevance: 91.18 #34 team relevance: 100.00 #38 team relevance: 85.29 Average relevance: 83.33 Turner Motorsports-2012 Nationwide Series Relevance #30 team relevance: 81.82 #31 team relevance: 84.85 #32 team relevance: 0.00 #38 team relevance: 78.79 Average relevance: 81.00 659. Talon64 posted: 11.20.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Homestead stats roundup turned into such a beast, thanks to a lot of season-ending stuff, that I had to post it as a blog! So here it is: http://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=1424 660. Smiff_2 posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, Smiff_99 and Smiff_2 are one and the same. I *was* an Edwards fan before being a Keselowski fan, but I've lost all interest in him, so I've since modified my name to reflect that.....lol 661. Smiff_2 posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know, Murb, I've *kinda* had a suspicion that something could be going on between those two. I sure hope not, though. Tony can do WAAAAAYYYY better....lol 662. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @David: They are screwing over every female racer ever to make Danica look better. It is ridiculous. Good racers like Sara Christian of the past or Johanna in the present, or in the world of drag racing, legendary Shirley Muldowney or promising new winner Erica Enders are thoroughly ignored for their accomplishments. 663. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And for the record, a Smoke/Danica civil union can ONLY end badly. And I mean like seriously badly. 664. Baker posted: 11.21.2012 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart is more interested in his sprint car driver Jessica Zemken. Already numerous reports of their dating. They are always together when Tony is not cup racing. DSFF, I don't know if you are an IRL follower but even Sarah Fisher has proven to be more talented than Danica Patrick. She put up results with far less competitive equipment. She never got a big break like Danica probably because she is not as good looking. 665. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 12:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Been thinking about it, and the similarities between Brad's championship this year and Dale's in 1980 are amazing. -Both driving the #2 car. The only two times in "What Is Now The NASCAR Sprint Cup Series" that the #2 car is the championship car. OF course while Brad is driving the now legendary Penske South Miller sponsored #2 car we have known and watched win since 1991, Dale was driving a much less heralded #2 car. After Bobby Allison suffered through a disasterous winless 1976 season in the (irony alert!) Penske #2 car (they switched from #16 which they won 3 races with in '75 including a rare Darlington sweep to #2 in '76 presumably for the CAM 2 sponsorship they had, though that is just a guess on my part). After that crappy season, Roger got out from full time NASCAR racing, sold all his Ford stuff to George Elliott who was running a scrappy start up team for his son Bill cause he knew they would never make that team into a contender (whoops!). Meanwhile, Rod Osterlund came South for his new hobby, NASCAR racing with a bunch of California gearheads that were greener than goose shit, and somehow wound up with the #2. After Dave Marcis drove their first season for Rod in '78, a year Richard Childress would be very proud of, no wins, few laps led, but lots of finishes and distant Top 5s and 10s. The next year they gave that car to promising young talent, the EXTREMELY unrefined Dale Earnhardt who won a race, led many laps, and crashed out 4 times and finished many other races with crinkled sheet metal. Yet the Osterlund team was thrilled by this. Shop guys would rather fix sheet metal for a driver that will drive the piss out of their car than build cars that a driver will be cautious, not press the issue, and get what they can, even if it is less work. This is a big reason, although I would love to see it, I am not on board with the "Trevor Bayne 2013 NWide champ" deal. -Beating the juggernaut off a "down" year for said juggernaut. When you have a dynasty like the Junior/Cale #11 team or the Jimmie/Chad #48 that has had a prolonged stretch of success (3 straight for Cale '76-'78, 5 straight for JJ '06-'10), and they have a year where they are good, but not in contention on the end like Cale in '79 or JJ in '11, the next year they are the most dangerous. Examples of this include Petty '74-'75, Junior Johnson Enterprises '81-'82, Earnhardt '93-'94, and Gordon in '01. Juggernauts take not being a factor personally and get pissed off. Therefore, conventional wisdom said Cale and his team (lame duck status or not) would crush the inexperienced Osterlund team and their brash young wild driver Dale and the 48 would crush the 2nd year pairing of Paul Wolfe and brash young wild driver Brad K. In each case the #2 team and driver stared the dragon right in the eyes and never blinked. -Winning so quickly. In each case, everyone recognized the talent of young Dale and Brad and knew they had potential. But in NASCAR things take a while. In each case things happened much quicker than expected. Dale won the Winston Cup in just his 2nd season (STILL the only one to do that) and Brad, being a slacker, took 3 seasons (still rare). And again, with the possible exception of BP's 1973 Winston Cup crown, does any championship in "what is now the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series" make any less sense on paper than Dale's 1980 title? I know in the future it would make a lot more sense once he won 6 more championships with Richard Childress, whose ability to field and compete with juggernauts in Cup without Dale over the last 12 years speaks for itself. You realized "Oh yeah, he is just the best driver ever in NASCAR". -5 wins and no poles. For Dale this would become a career theme. Were it not for Atlanta and the road courses you would almost be able to count his career poles on one hand. For Brad it tied him for most wins this season, for Dale he was just one win behind the Cale/Junior juggernaut. In each case it was no joke. -Last season for the current car. Although the first race of 1981 at Riverside in January would have the old '77 models, the rest of the races would exclusively have the evil handling downsized cars. For Brad, we bid farewell to 5 and 1/2 of racing hell of with the COT as he wins his first crown. I just hope NASCAR doesn't screw up with this new car. Let's just say I'm not exactly holding my breath. -9th season for current NASCAR czar. 1980 was Bill France Jr's 9th season as NASCAR CEO, just as 2012 was Brian's 9th season. That is where the similarities in this category end. -Rusty's big splash in his first attempt. In 1980 he made his first start in "what is now the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series" and finished 2nd to Earnhardt after 500 long miles at Atlanta (for a rookie to FINISH 500 miles back then was a big deal, let alone finish 2nd to the eventual champ). This year he made his first appearance on the NASCAR HOF ballot, and was deservedly voted in. OK, I'm grasping for straws now. Either way, let's hope that this is the first of many for Brad, just like it was for Dale. Will Brad win 7? Highly unlikely. But then again, just winning one was too. Let's just focus on getting those Fords up to speed and getting title #2. 666. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF, I don't know if you are an IRL follower but even Sarah Fisher has proven to be more talented than Danica Patrick. She put up results with far less competitive equipment." Sounds a lot like Johanna. Let's hope she gets a big break like Sarah never got. 667. Eric posted: 11.21.2012 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that female races are being overlooked by Danica. NHRA had or has some very talented drag racers in Shirley Muldowney, Angelle Sampey, Erica Enders, and Courtney Force. The problem for female drag racing stars in the past and current in terms of is some people actually think Drag racing isn't in the top levels the world of Motorsports. Those people claim going in a straight line doesn't take a lot of skill. Angelle Sampey actually is a legendary racer in the NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle division. She was a 3 time champion in that division and has 41 main event wins in that division before she retired. Angelle I believe has the 2nd most career wins in NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle division. 668. murb posted: 11.21.2012 - 1:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, I said I would release my official 2013 Team-By-Team Predictions on Wednesday. And on the East Coast it is nearly Wednesday, so here they are. I tried posting it last night, but it was way too huge, so I condensed it down. Murb's 2013 Sprint Cup Series Team By Team Predictions (NOTE: I did all of the full time teams, and I threw in a couple others like the 21 since they are pretty relevant.) 1 team - EGR will be quite noticeably better than they were in 2012 due to the Hendrick support. But overall, Jamie will be hit or miss. 13th - 20th in points. 2 team - Keselowski and company will have another strong year, but at the same time I see them having a bit of a hangover. Just 2 or 3 wins, but still a top five points finish. 5 team - Kasey will be a lot stronger with one year under his belt in the 5 car. Chase contender for sure. 9 team - About the same as this year. The question will be this: Is Blickensderfer the right answer? In the last few races of 2012, they were a solid pair. So if they can carry it over to 2013, I expect them to have another solid year. One concern though is that they will probably be the third fiddle team over at Ford, so that should be interesting. 10 team - Just three or four top tens all year (at the most), and a points finish of no better than 25th. It will be a learning year for the Princess. 11 team - This one is a little interesting. But overall, I expect the entire JGR organization to be ramped up with the arrival of Matt Kenseth and the departure of Joey Logano. My prediction is that Hamlin will once again have a good year with multiple wins, but championship contention may hinge on whether or not they can keep their cars together in the Chase, since that has been their downfall in the past. 13 team - Another decent year for an underdog team. 25th - 28th in points, but possibly up to 22nd - 24th if they can really improve. 14 team - I think he will be way too focused on the ownership side next year. He'll have Danica in her first year, Harvick on the horizon, and he'll also most likely be trying to find sponsorship all year to keep Newman. Too many distractions. Honestly, I have him missing the Chase. 15 team - Clint and MWR will continue the 2nd place hangover of recent years, and the whole organization will be a step off of what they were in 2012. But it's obvious that he is the franchise driver of MWR, so they will probably put all of their resources behind this team. The Chase looks a little iffy, but they have a shot at the Wild Card. 16 team - To me, it's been made apparent that all of Roush's focus is on getting Carl Edwards back into title contention, so I see Biffle being on the back-burner. Chase contention will depend on whether or not he can get a win in the regular season and get himself into a Wild Card spot. 17 team - As it's been said on Racing Reference before by several posters, this will be Jeff Gordon's 1993 season all over again. I expect him to be fast, but ultimately, as a rookie driver on a rookie team with essentially a rookie crew chief, he will shoot himself in the foot numerous times and it will prevent them from getting the job done. 16th - 22nd in points, and knowing Jack Roush, I wouldn't be surprised to see a crew chief change before the season ends. 18 team - Like I said on Hamlin's rundown, I believe that Kenseth's arrival will boost the whole Gibbs organization up a ton. If Kyle can finally get it all together for a whole year, he can no doubt contend for a championship. 20 team - I'm just gonna say it: I think Matt Kenseth is going to have a rejuvenation year. We saw him win TWO races in the Chase as a lameduck driver, and now he'll be with an even stabler team. I'm predicting a spitting image of Mark Martin's 2009 season, except with an even better shot at the title. 21 team - Obviously, Trevor will be focused on winning that NNS championship, but I think he will gain confidence on the NNS side and it will transfer over to Cup. He'll have a lot of pretty good runs. 22 team - I have no idea. He could shock everyone and get it into the Chase, or he can totally keep doing what he's been doing and finish in that 15th - 20th range once again. One thing is certain though: All he is is Brad's wingman. Nothing more. 24 team - With this win at Homestead and some fire coming out of the Phoenix deal, I can see Gordon contending for the championship. He showed in 2011 that he can still turn back the hands of time, so maybe he can do it again. Chase contender for sure, multiple wins. 27 team - Paul will have another year just like his first two with RCR. Quietly and methodically, he'll finish 13th - 20th in points, and maybe he'll get a surprise win on a road course or something. 29 team - I see him having a better 2013 than he did 2012, but ultimately, his newly found lameduck status will come back to bite. A couple Harvick style wins, 10th - 12th in final points. 31 team - Jeff Burton has a bit of a rebound with Luke Lambert's return, and will go along with Menard in that 13th - 20th range. Not a great year, but much better than 2011 or 2012. 34 team - Assuming Ragan comes back, they will be about the same as 2012. 38 team - Ditto. 39 team - Newman will be involved in silly season, as he only signed a one year deal with SHR. And if he has another just kind of ordinary year, I don't expect him back in the 39 in 2014. I'll slot him in in that 13th - 20th range. 42 team - As said on McMurray's, EGR will find new speed with Hendrick support, and they will be much better as a team. I say Montoya wins a race (either on a road course or at either New Hampshire or Pocono), and is in Wild Card contention. 43 team - He had a fantastic end to 2012 with some great runs in the last five races or so, so I think Aric will have a mini breakout year of sorts. I think he will win his first race and will be in Wild Card contention. I'm calling a Regan Smith 2011 type year, only a little better. 47 team - Unfortunately, Bobby spends another year in JTG Daugherty's pieces of junk. 24th - 29th in points. 48 team - Get ready for this one: The tension from losing will carry over. They will be kind of hit and miss through the first 20 races or so. They will be about 7th in points around July, and then, I think the dynamic duo will finally end. Around the middle of the year, I see Hendrick promoting Chad to their Team President spot or whatever, and Jimmie getting stuck with Lance McGrew or something. Or if Earnhardt Jr is struggling (which is very well possible), they'll put Letarte with him. A win at Dover and a 9th place points finish for the 48, as Jimmie and *new crew chief goes here* head for a rebuild in 2014. (NOTE: I know some people might think this is wishful thinking on my part, and it is, but just a little bit. Over the past year or so, I've been seeing their relationship deteriorating. So I just think that the tension will carry over to next year, and something might finally be done.) 51 team - No idea as to whether or not Finch will be back. If so, it depends on who the driver is. 55 team - Again MWR will be down a step from 2012. However, I do think Mark will finally grab a win in this car. Maybe even his first Daytona 500. 56 team - MWR won't be as good, yada, yada, yada. Misses the Chase. 78 team - Kurt gets an early win at either Phoenix, or the first Talladega race and gets one of the Wild Cards. I don't like Kurt as a driver, but I do like what I've seen from him since he's gotten in this 78. 83 team - Sounds like Landon should be back, which is good. If so, I see him and the 83 gaining a little bit from 2012. 21st - 26th in points. 88 team - Much like their shopmates (the 48 team), I see them struggling a bit. Jr never adapted to the COT that well, and I don't think he will with this new car either. Chase hopes are borderline. 99 team - I believe Roush will be putting huge efforts towards getting the 99 back to title contention, and I think they will pay off. Jimmy Fenning will make a huge impact, Carl will get back to victory lane multiple times, and they will be a top five team that threatens for the championship. 669. murb posted: 11.21.2012 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lastly, here is my final standings prediction. It will probably be way off, but heading into the new year, this is how I see it playing out. 2013 Champion: Jeff Gordon (Like I said on his rundown, I think he can still turn back the clock, as he showed in 2011. I think he will still have a little bit of bent up aggression from the Bowyer incident and the overall bad luck 2012 season he had, and I see him and Kasey Kahne carrying the flag for HMS as Jr and Jimmie struggle.) 2nd: Matt Kenseth (It will come down to a tight battle with he and Jeff, but I see Jeff getting him down the stretch.) 3rd: Carl Edwards (Rebound year, gets back to victory lane multiple times.) 4th: Brad Keselowski (Like I said, I think he'll have a bit of a hangover. Early on in the year he might struggle, but through the summer months the 2 team will regain their mojo and will at least contend for the title a little bit.) 5th: Kasey Kahne (Again, Jeff and Kasey will be the flag bearers for HMS.) 6th: Kyle Busch (I think if he is ever going to become a champion, his path towards that needs to start in 2013. He'll have the influence of a champion on his team, so hopefully Kenseth's personality can maybe rub off on Kyle. I'm gonna say that he will take significant gains towards becoming a champion, and he will be awfully hard to beat in the years following 2013. But at the same time, there's also a good chance that he will completely lose it even further and will end up getting his ass fired by JGR. You just never know with the Busch Brothers. Anywho, I'll put him in 6th.) 7th: Denny Hamlin (Same type of year as 2012, except one spot lower in points.) 8th: Clint Bowyer (Wild Card.) 9th: Jimmie Johnson (See his rundown.) 10th: Kevin Harvick (Lameduck.) 11th: Kurt Busch (Wild Card.) 12th: Greg Biffle (A la Martin Truex's 2012 season - fast at numerous times, but doesn't get too many, if any wins.) 670. Eric posted: 11.21.2012 - 1:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really don't care Danica does in her personal life outside of racing unless she does stuff that put competitors at risk on the track. What I mean does stuff that put competitors at risk is stuff like a driver does drugs before a race or is racing drunk. I feel the same with any driver in Auto Racing in what they do outside of racing. Divorce though can affect a driver on the track in terms of focus though. Jeff Gordon is a prime example of that. Jeff in 2002 and 2003 was affected by his divorce on the track. I know his divorce was messy. The woman who Jeff had an affair with talked to playboy in one of those two years matter of fact and think that distracted Jeff also. 671. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF (#666), How many times have I said that the fact that Dave Marcis drove Penske's #2 car in 1977 had everything to do with Rod Osterlund getting that number for 1978. (And by the way, when Marcis drove occasionally for Penske in 1972-'73, the car number was 2 in the races that Marcis ran for the team.) And while Penske sold his Mercury parts to George Elliott for 1978, he sold the team itself to Rod Osterlund, and both the driver (Marcis) and the car number (2) went with it. But since Osterlund wanted to run GM cars, he had no use for the Mercurys Penske was running in 1976-'77, so Penske sold the parts to George Elliott. And since the #2 was, in effect avaialble when Penske returned in 1991, combined with his history with that number, Penske made a deal with D.K. Ulrich in 1990 to be able to use that number for 1991. And murb, while I won't be making any predictions for 2013 for another month,I already disagree with some of your predictions, including Gordon contending for the tite. As I've said, his days as a championship contender are over. And I think Denny Hamlin may have a miserable year in 2013, and the reason would be Kenseth's arrival. Just look at the history at JGR, because since they went to three cars, when they've tried to revive on car, another has always struggled. Just look at what happened to the #20 car after Kyle Busch got there in 2008. And Stenhouse will be lucky if his 2013 season is like Jeff Gordon's 1993 season, because I think it will be significantly worse. At least Gordon had Ken Schrader and Ricky Rudd to learn from, although Rudd didn't help him much. Stenhouse doesn't have any mentors at Roush, and 17th-20th in points may be Stenhouse's ceiling in 2013 if he drives the way he's been in the Nationwide Series. As I said, I think he'll be in crashes in at least 15 races next year, if not more, unless he changes. 672. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I think you are spot on in your assessment of Jimmie and Chad. To me, they have always had an expiration date as a pair. Hell, they almost split up right before their dynasty truly began in '06. I think you put it perfectly. 673. David posted: 11.21.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stenhouse doesn't have any mentors at Roush" "At least Gordon had Ken Schrader and Ricky Rudd to learn from, although Rudd didn't help him much." What do you call Greg Biffle and Carl Edwards? OK, maybe Edwards is a bit of a stretch, but even Biffle alone has no fewer Cup championships than Schrader and Rudd combined. 674. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like Brian Scott's going to get the #2 RCR car. Considering they have no sponsorship since OneMain left with Sadler to JGR, I can understand why they'd go with a decent driver like Scott who brings sponsorship. And who knows, maybe Scott will build off of his solid end to 2012 (Truck win at Phoenix, 5 top 10's in the last 8 races of the season) and have a good season. Although he won't have Luke Lambert has his crew chief, which could hurt the #2's performance beyond even just losing Sadler. Parker Kligerman's rumored to be driving full time for Kyle Busch Motorsports in Nationwide in 2013. I always wonder why a Cup driver prefers to win in their own equipment, rather when someone else does it. When your team can win when your only involvement is on the ownership side then that seems like a bigger accomplishment to me. Especially if it's a non-Cup driver, and I think Kligerman can get a win or two next season with KBM at the very least. And it's been announced today that Jeb Burton's going to be driving full time in the Truck Series for Turner Motorsports in 2013 AND 2014, with some Nationwide races sprinkled in. I thought Jeb did a good job in his handful of starts last year before the sponsorship dried up at Hillman Racing, but I have to admit that this announcement surprised me. Between Jeb and Larson, that's a pretty good young duo. But this all but confirms that James Buescher's moving up to Trucks and that Nelson Piquet Jr.'s at least not going to be back in Trucks with Turner next year. Miguel Paludo will probably stay in the #32 with his sponsorship. 675. murb posted: 11.21.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, I see what you are saying about Denny maybe having a bad year as JGR has always had one bad car when someone new comes in, but consider this. When JGR expanded to three teams in 2005, JASON LEFFLER was their driver of the new team. Of course he wasn't gonna do them any good. But that same year, Tony won the champioship. Bobby struggled and ended up leaving, but he struggled in 2004 as well and he hasn't done anything since other than some decent years when he was with Petty. And then, to replace Bobby, they chose JJ YELEY. He never did anything at JGR other than win a pole at Michigan one year, but in that 2006 season, both Tony and Denny got multiple wins and were good all year (even though Tony blew it and missed the Chase). And as for how the 20 struggled in 2008, I think the reason why was because Tony was distracted by all of the negotiations he was having with Chevrolet and Haas. Then, when he finally announced he was leaving, he became a lameduck and suffered further because of it (even though he "won" at Talladega). So I'm not really buying this whole "one of the JGR cars will struggle because in the past whenever they've added someone new one of them has struggled" thing. In the past, they've brought in terrible drivers (Leffler and Yeley), and then in 2008 they were distracted by Tony's pending departure. They've never added a championship driver like Matt Kenseth before, and I just think that Matt is going to bring a ton of good to the organization. Yeah DSFF, if you really think about it and take a look back through time, Jimmie and Chad have always sort of had this explosive relationship. Like you said, they nearly broke up after losing in 2005 (and if Tony would have performed like he did in the 2006 Chase for all of 2006, he probably would have won it again, and the 48 probably would have broken up.) But in the past two years or so, it's really been showing up a lot more. I think it all started back at the Spring Martinsville race in 2010. Remember, that was the first race back for spoilers on the Cup cars, and the 48 had won 3 of the last 4 races with the wing. If they would have kept the wing for the whole 2010 season, they probably would have coasted to their 2010 title. But instead, when the spoiler came back, they fell behind while other teams (the 11 and the 29 most notably) grabbed ahold of it. I think this is where their relationship with each other started to get back to that rocky end of 2005 feel. Of course, we know what happened. They won the title, but it was probably their least deserved of all five of them. Denny and Mike Ford basically handed it to them in the last two races, despite taking the points lead with a win at Texas in the same race where Jimmie and Chad proved that the 48 had rocky chemistry (the pit crew bench situation). The point is that I think that was the season where they saw other teams catching up to them, and as a result, they started to become pretty hostile towards each other at times. I was watching a clip from that Showtime show Inside Nascar, and it was the episode from Phoenix a couple weeks ago. When the 48 was in the garage, Chad was yelling at all of the crew members and asking for tools and stuff. I know it was a heat of the moment thing, but in his voice, you could just hear the sound of crumbling team chemistry. And then of course, to put the icing on the cake, the mechanical failure happened at Homestead and they came up short of their sixth championship. So, like I said, if this tension and chemistry crumbling continues into next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see Hendrick make a change. And like I said in my predictions, I'm also expecting Dale Jr to struggle with the new car (as he has never adapted well to new cars), so I definitely can see Chad getting promoted to oversee the entire 48/88 operation or something. Because let's face it, Rick Hendrick is getting older, and Chad seems to be gaining more and more power with them with each passing year. So maybe they'll get a little bit of a head start on their "changing of the guard" within organizational power, if you know what I mean. 676. Paul posted: 11.21.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It should also be noted regarding the latest signing by Turner Motorsports that their only current full-time Nationwide driver, Justin Allgaier, doesn't have a contract for next year and was told earlier this month that he was free to talk to other NASCAR teams about 2013. I like Turner's latest signing with Jeb Burton as I was really impressed by his results in Mike Hillman's truck early in 2012, and I think he can get good results next year driving for Turner. Plus it doesn't hurt having family relations with Ward and Jeff Burton, both of whom are more than willing to mentor Jeb in his racing career. Especially Ward, who pretty much retired to help his son out. 677. Jocke Persson posted: 11.21.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 664. She's got nothing on Danica, though. 678. David posted: 11.21.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but even Biffle alone has no fewer Cup championships than Schrader and Rudd combined" Of course, neither does Joe Ruttman, Phil Parsons, Todd Bodine, Ron Bouchard, Terry Bivins, Frank Warren, Ed Negre, J.D. McDuffie, Clark Dwyer, Lennie Pond, Dick Brooks, Trevor Boys, Brad Noffsinger, Richie Panch, D.K. Ulrich, Brett Bodine, Richard D. Brown, Ramo Stott, Joe Eubanks, Weldon Parks, Ralph Zrimsek, Ted Musgrave, Larry Pearson, Skip Manning, Ron Hutcherson, Vic Parsons... 679. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "17 team - As it's been said on Racing Reference before by several posters, this will be Jeff Gordon's 1993 season all over again. I expect him to be fast, but ultimately, as a rookie driver on a rookie team with essentially a rookie crew chief, he will shoot himself in the foot numerous times and it will prevent them from getting the job done. 16th - 22nd in points, and knowing Jack Roush, I wouldn't be surprised to see a crew chief change before the season ends." You should read David Smith's 2012 Nationwide Series review, since the numbers suggest that Stenhouse has improved immensely in the crashing and consistency departments. For example, Stenhouse's crash frequency was 0.18 this season (number of crashes per race), pretty comparable to Elliot Sadler (0.12) and Austin Dillon (0.15) from Really Conservative Racing. You can look at Stenhouse and say, "He's too aggressive, he's going to crash a lot!", but I look at him and say, "I can't believe he doesn't crash more often given the way he races!". The latter's probably more indicitive of where he is now compared to 2011 and especially 2010, because he's gotten a good handle at finding the right balance that results in a bunch of wins, a few incidents but surprisingly good consistency otherwise with the top 5's and top 10's he racked up this year. And there's always room for improvement. The only rookie to make the Chase was Denny Hamlin in 2006, and he's the only rookie since 2003 to finish top 10 in points. I've got a good feeling that Stenhouse can contend for a Chase spot in 2013. He could contend for a Chase spot even if he has a Kyle Busch-like rookie year; Kyle was 19th in points with 1 win after the first 26 races in 2005, and under the current Chase system he would've ended up 3rd in the hunt for the 2nd wild card spot behind Kevin Harvick and Dale Earnhardt Jr.. Missed it, but finished 4th at Richmond and had a shot at winning the race. The top 12 in points made the Chase this season, despite the wild cards, and Gordon made it with a 14.9 average finish. Call me crazy, but I think Stenhouse can hang around 15.0 to have a chance next season, since I don't think he'll wreck as often as some think he will. 680. Red posted: 11.21.2012 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For Jimmie's sake, I would love to see him split with Knaus. Despite all their winning together, being paired with a cheater/sociopath/asshole like Chad has hurt Jimmie's legacy more than it has helped. If Jimmie had LeTarte as his CC, they'd probably win 2-3 races a year and finish top 5 in points, but would not be as dominant as Jimmie/Chad has been. As ludicrous as it may sound, what about a Gordon/Knaus partnership? It would only be for one or two years, but perhaps Chad's obsessive work ethic could help Jeff win his 5th and final championship. 681. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like you said, they nearly broke up after losing in 2005 (and if Tony would have performed like he did in the 2006 Chase for all of 2006, he probably would have won it again, and the 48 probably would have broken up.)" That is still a sore point for me. But then again everything happens for a reason. Had Jimmie not been a 5 time consecutive champ coming off a "down" year, this championship by Brad wouldn't have meant quite as much. It was tough suffering through those 5 years of 48 domination, but had a bunch of different people won the Cup, it would have diluted its value for this era IMO. The fact that talented drivers like Carl, Denny, Kyle, and Kevin don't have a championship makes it mean more. And the fact that 4 time champ and 87 time race winner Jeff Gordon hasn't won it since 2001 means a lot. That is one talented dude. "Those people claim going in a straight line doesn't take a lot of skill." You are right that people don't give drag racing the respect it deserves and that is a shame. "And Stenhouse will be lucky if his 2013 season is like Jeff Gordon's 1993 season....... I think he'll be in crashes in at least 15 races next year, if not more" So it WILL be like Gordon in '93. 682. Jim Davis posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " I know it was a heat of the moment thing, but in his voice, you could just hear the sound of crumbling team chemistry." You're drawing a sweeping conclusion from very little evidence. I'm not saying you're wrong but I'd need more than this before believing that Johnson and Knaus are splitting. I just noticed that every chase race this year was one by a chase driver. Has that happened before? 683. Jim Davis posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You are right that people don't give drag racing the respect it deserves and that is a shame." I don't think it's a matter of not respecting drag racing. It's more a matter of recognizing that drag racing is an entirely different set of skills. The lack of movement between the two forms of racing speaks volumes. And note that Racing Reference doesn't include NHRA statistics. 684. 44andJoe posted: 11.21.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >And note that Racing Reference doesn't include NHRA statistics. Yet. ;) 685. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim... look at 2008 to answer your question. 686. rtcrules posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My prediction: She'll be Danica Stewart within 2 years." And in 9 years she'll own Danica-Haas when she gets the team in a divorce settlement. 687. cjs3872 posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except DSFF, that Gordon was actually in the top seven for a great part of the 1993 season before crumbling down the stretch and finishing 14th, the worst points finish in his career. The truth is that I don't expect Stenhouse to run that well, because he has no mentors, unlike Gordon, who had Schrader and Rudd, and he's going to crash in about half the races simply because he tries too hard, and won't listen to advice. And David (#673), neither Biffle or Edwards are capable of mentoring anyone, because they don't have that kind of personality. That's the one thing that Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne, Jeff Burton, Matt Kenseth, Tony Stewart, and Denny Hamlin all had when they were coming up in the Cup series. Gordon had Schrader, Rudd, and Terry Labonte, Johnson had Gordon and Labonte, both Burton and Kenseth, as well as Biffle and Edwards all had Mark Martin, and Stewart and Hamlin both had Bobby Labonte when they came up, and Kahne was mentored by Bill Elliott. Stenhouse doesn't have that. That's why I said that Trevor Bayne might have been a better option, because he's had mentoring from the Wood Brothers for the last two years. Stenhouse needs that kind of leadership, and Roush does not have any leaders among his drivers. All the other drivers I mentioned had leaders mentoring them, as well as great drivers. 688. Talon64 posted: 11.21.2012 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Based on PEER, Brad Keselowski's 4.600 in the 2012 Chase ranks 13th all time (out of 102) and 7th out of the 9 championship seasons. Tony Stewart in 2005 (3.600, 21st) and Jimmie Johnson in 2006 (3.600, 22nd) are the two lowest by a champion in the Chase, but those two also have the two best Chases ever, 6.650 by Stewart in 2011 and by Johnson in 2009. You can check out the top 25, pre-2012 Chase, in MA's free articles: http://www.motorsportsanalytics.com/free-articles/ 689. murb posted: 11.21.2012 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And in 9 years she'll own Danica-Haas when she gets the team in a divorce settlement." lol, And then 20 years down the line after that Tony Patrick - Stewart Jr will make his Cup Series debut for his mom's team. 690. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.21.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Gordon's greatest mentors were Ray Evernham and Rick himself. Not sure The Rooster ever had much use for him or anyone for that matter not named Ricky Rudd (believe it or not, I actually have a ton of respect for The Rooster, even despite The Great Wilkesboro Incident Of Eighty Nine). And about all Schrader could mentor him on is how to drink like a champion, something he mentored Dale Jr on, and damn near got his ass whipped by Big E for it. Seriously, SPEED needs to have a weekly show that is just one hour of Schrader telling funny stories from the past as only Schrader can. How can that not be ratings gold? Speaking of Big E, how about his Cup mentor, Crazy Jake Elder? That dude was friggin nuts but he knew a race car inside and out. Lots of positives and negatives to having Jake as his mentor. 691. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, Schrader probably was a pretty good mentor for Gordon, especially when you consider they both came to NASCAR from sprint and midget racing. And of course, we can't forget Terry Labonte, who arrived at Hendrick in 1994 when Gordon was still trying to find his way. But even if Evernham and Rick Hendrick himself were Gordon's key mentors, that's still more than what Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. has on that front, considering who he has for a car owner, and for teammates, none of whom are very good at mentoring others. As I've said, that's not in the make-up of Carl Edwards or Greg Biffle, and Jack Roush has a shameful history regarding young drivers overall. What Stenhouse needs is someone like Mark Martin, Matt Kenseth, or Jeff Burton, all of who drive succesfully for Roush, and were all good mentors for the younger drivers coming up. Burton was a big help for Clint Bowyer in advancing his career in the Cup series, and the records of Martin, Kenseth, and the Labonte brothers in this regard goes without saying, as does the record of the Wood Brothers, who developed the likes of Cale Yarborough, Dale Jarrett, Elliott Sadler, and now Trevor Bayne, and helped other struggling careers, such as that of Neil Bonnett and Kyle Petty, and even rescued the career of David Pearson. 692. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.22.2012 - 5:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There won't be twenty years down the line for Tony Patrick-Stewart, Jr. at Danica-Haas Racing because she will have to fold the team because she won't run it properly, and Tony who has all the cold hard $$$ from the settlement will start a new team. 693. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.22.2012 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) so, any guesses as to what turner's lineup will look like next season? my guess: trucks larson (full-time) jeb burton (full-time) piquet (full-time) 4th truck split between drivers as it was in 2012 with kasey kahne, dakoda armstrong, august gill, and others nationwide buescher (full-time) kahne / brad sweet 3rd car split between piquet, burton, and others. 694. Red posted: 11.22.2012 - 11:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2012 Chase registered record low TV ratings, a 2.7 average for the ten races. The Loudon race was the lowest rated Chase race of all-time, and the lowest rated race of the entire 2012 season. Brian, are you paying attention? (That's a rhetorical question. We all know he'll find anything else to blame but the product itself) 695. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2012 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One question though cjs, with Ricky's attitude, would he accept any mentoring? Look at Kurt Busch. He had Mark and Jeff and Matt with him in his formative years at Roush, and although he did adopt their mindset on and off the track for 10 races in '04, he never quit being a punk outside of those three months. His brother has likewise had a ton of mentors in his time at HMS and JGR, most notably from The Coach himself who has written books and gives speeches all over the country on how to go about life the right way, and he hasn't really changed. Just wondering your thoughts on that. He seems like the type you can't really tell anything to. 696. Bronco posted: 11.22.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, although I had hoped for a different outcome as far as who won the championship I can't complain at all since Brad did win the championship by both the chase system and by scoring the most points overall in the season. That makes his championship "legit" to me unlike Kurt in '04, JJ in '07,'08 and '10 and Tony last year. Final race for: 1) The current Cup car. It was used from the 2010 spring Martinsville race to now, with the only change to it being the splitter braces become integrated with the car starting with the 2011 Daytona 500. If I'm not mistaken Denny Hamlin was the winningest driver with this style of car with 14 victories. 2) Office Depot as a NASCAR sponsor. They won a bunch of races with Carl and came close to the 2008 championship, then won the 2011 championship, ironically at Carl's expense. They experienced a ton of success in little time, making the chase and winning at least one race every year from 2005-2012 (except 2006). 3) The US Army as a NASCAR sponsor. They were first on Jerry Nadeau's #01 Pontiac in the 2003 season, then he was badly injured at Richmond in May which led to a bunch of different drivers sharing that ride for the remainder of the season. Joe Nemechek then won at Kansas the following the year to score the Army's first win. Later Mark Martin nearly won the 2007 Daytona 500, and then the Army won its second and final race with Newman at New Hampshire last July. 4) Bass Pro Shops as a primary sponsor on the #1. They won four races in 7 years at the Cup level including the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400 but the struggles of the past two seasons made them leave. 5) Regan Smith in the Cup series for the time being, unless he gets called up for substitute duty next year. 6) Carl Edwards and Chad Norris. Their results together were very lackluster no doubt. Next Carl Edwards and Jimmy Fennig will be a force to be reckoned with for sure. 7) Matt Kenseth driving the #17. This ends one of the most successful driver and team partnerships of all time as they won ROTY, a championship and multiple races and chase berths. Despite that the #17 never had steady sponsorship after Dewalt left following the 2009 season. 8) Dale Earnhardt Jr having Diet Mountain Dew as a key sponsor. Next year they're going to sponsor less races despite him coming off his best ever season at HMS. 9) Dodge in NASCAR. Since their 2001 return, their first win came at Michigan in August 2001 with Sterling Marlin and their last win came in September 2012 with Brad Keselowski (both beer cars). Their first pole was Bill Elliott for the 2001 Daytona 500 and their last pole was AJ Allmendinger at Kansas this April. Until Brad's championship their best points finish was 3rd in 2001 with Sterling Marlin followed by weeks of leading the points in 2002. A shame to see Dodge go since their Charger is easily the best street car of the four manufacturers. 10) Joey Logano with the 20 car. He won two races with that team, the first was a fluke and the second was legit, but was never a constant threat for wins like his two teammates were. 11) David Reutimann in the 10 car. He is so deserving of a quality ride and it pisses me off that he isn't getting it. 12) The crew chiefs of the 1 and 42 cars. This is a prediction, but I'd be surprised if there aren't major changes at either one of those teams. 697. MegaRacer posted: 11.22.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With Clint Bowyer passing Jimmie Johnson for second in the points, Jimmie J. is spared the "Second Place Curse". (see: Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards) Have fun next year, Clint! 698. murb posted: 11.22.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just from seeing the way he ignores his crew chief and spotter during key moments, I don't think Stenhouse would accept any mentoring. And like I've said before, that's the exact thing I've never liked about him. He thinks he is already an elite Cup driver just because he is a beast at controlling a race car and can go incredibly fast on the track. To me, he's a modern day Ernie Irvan that happens to be inflicted with Kurt Busch's Roush era attitude. 699. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If what you say is true DSFF, then Roush made an even worse choice bringing Ricky up than even I imagined, because if any driver that's come up in recent years needs to be mentored, it Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. But I stand by what I say about Carl Edwards and Greg Biffle not being the kind to mentor anyone, which is why I've constantly said that he needs some guidance from a team like the Wood Brothers. And Roush's overall track record with young drivers is bad, to say the least. And MegaRacer, I don't think the "second place curse" will apply to Clint Bowyer next year, for one simple reason. That reason is that, unlike others who have finished second, Bowyer has to be nothing but enthusiastic to finish there, because second wasn't even on his radar, especially after Phoenix. He was trying to finish third ahead of Kasey Kahne, and got lucky because of Jimmie's misfortune, allowing him to move up another notch he wasn't expecting to move up. The others who have finished second (Gordon, Martin, Hamlin, and Edwards twice) were emotionally crushed because of how close they were to the title, but this does not apply to Bowyer and the #15 MWR team, because they rallied to finish second. 700. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 11.22.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The chase may be gone after 2014 when the tv deal is up.Would to see a winston million type programme adopted again. I predict Vickers will win nationwide, Dillon in trucks and Johnson in cup with Kyle Busch second.Which achievement do think would hold more weight with fans, Johnson achieving 100 wins or 8 championships. I personally would go with the wins, do you think either is even possible. 701. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kubica fan Ireland, ever heard of a guy named Jeff Gordon? He might get to 100 wins first. After all, his win in the season finale was his 87th, meaning he needs just 13 to get to 100 himself. And as I said, and this would be herecy to most stock car fans, as it would have once been to me, but if Gordon gets to that 100-win milestone, I'll rank him as the best ever, replacing Richard Petty, a once-unheard-of thought. And no, I don't think the Chase will be gone. And although it would have been more suspenseful without the Chase this year, the same guy (Brad Keselowski) would have won it either way in 2012. But I would love to see the Chase go, because I've never really been a fan of it. The reason being, to be a true champion, one must excel on all kinds of tracks over a full season, and with the Chase, you only have to excel on certain kinds of tracks, and only for 10 races, instead of 36. Those have been my arguments against the Chase from the very beginning, and will continue to be my arguments against it. Also, the Chase devalues the sport's biggest events, because the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, Southern 500, and Brickyard 400 aren't as big as they used to be. But I continue to say that, if they continue on with the Chase format, start it with either the Brickyard 400 or the Southern 500 to start it with one of the sport's most important events. 702. Eric posted: 11.22.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Megaracer, I don't think you can say Clint is getting the 2nd place course.cjs3872 is correct about Clint himself not expected to finish in 2nd after what happened at Phoenix. If Clint has a decrease of wins and doesn't fish 2nd in points next year, it is really caused by the fact there probably wouldn't be a lot of fuel mileage races next year and the amount of drivers not having any problems during the chase. Clint had finishes at Charlotte and Homestead that he wouldn't have gotten if it wasn't for fuel mileage. All of Clint's wins were by fuel mileage. I am saying that because Stenhouse is going to cause the amount cautions to rise. The thing is Clint wouldn't be the only driver to be affected by fuel mileage races if the amount of them decrease. Brad did win races by fuel mileage and lost one by fuel also. 703. Eric posted: 11.22.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I did remember Jeff Gordon winning the race at homestead by fuel mileage. I hope cjs3872 doesn't correct me on that. 704. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, you are correct, though part of it was also fuel strategy because Gordon was among those that stopped on the third (and last) caution, while Kyle Busch and Martin Truex, Jr., who were a half lap ahead, did not stop, so they had to stop, Gordon didn't, and Gordon won the race as a result. It was mostly mileage, but going out of sync on pit stops also aided Gordon's victory. That strategy would also have won Jimmie Johnson both the race and the championship, had he not run into trouble, because Johnson was also among those that stopped, while Keselowski was among those that didn't. And I did mention that he won on fuel mileage/strategy in post #487. 705. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope everyone has a safe and happy thanksgiving. One day closer to Daytona... 706. David posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kubica fan Ireland, ever heard of a guy named Jeff Gordon? He might get to 100 wins first. After all, his win in the season finale was his 87th, meaning he needs just 13 to get to 100 himself. And as I said, and this would be herecy to most stock car fans, as it would have once been to me, but if Gordon gets to that 100-win milestone, I'll rank him as the best ever, replacing Richard Petty, a once-unheard-of thought." How does a driver get thirteen more wins when he is supposedly "washed up"? 707. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh I agree Carl and Biff aren't ideal mentors cjs. As for the question that was asked, 8 championships holds more weight than 100 wins. 8 championships has never been done before, 100 wins has, including David Pearson who has 105 wins in about 100 less starts than Jeff. 708. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think he can get 13 more wins. Needs to pick it up a bit. Retirement is right around the corner. It will be a sad day for me. Who will I root for then? Even if I find someone else it wont be the same. Jeff will forever be #1 in my mind. 709. BON GORDON posted: 11.22.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And 8 championships truely is the ultimate goal. The pinacle of NASCAR accomplishments but 100 wins will be huge as well despite having more starts than Pearson. If he gets that close he might as well try to tie or pass Pearson in wins. If he gets 105 or 106 wins it would be an even greater accomplishment. 710. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, while I think that Jeff Gordon will never truly contend for another title, unless things line up perfectly for him, I harly think he's washed up. In fact, winning two races this year with all the bad luck he had, combined with not much speed on the speedways most of the year is proof of that. I think that, if the right combination of things happen, he could win four or five races next year, and the last truly big year he had was when they changed the cars in 2007. There is no driver out there, even today, that adapts better than Gordon does, so I think he could be in for a bigger year next year, and four or even five wins may not be out of the question, especially if he doesn't have the most awful string of bad luck next year. If his luck reverses itself, which may have started to happen at Homestead, he could win four or five times next year. And while I think eight championships is auto racing's Mount Everest, as it's never been done in any major series, winning the championship in NASCAR's top series doesn't carry the weight now as it did a decade ago, due to the Chase. It's still a great accomplishment, as it means you're the champion of the entire sport, but it doesn't mean quite as much now as it did before the advent of the Chase because you only have to be good in 10 races, and not on every kind of track. But not only has eight championships never been achieved in NASCAR's top series, it's never been done in any of the other major series, either. As we know, the record for the most championships in NASCAR's top series is seven, jointly held by both Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. But the record for the most championships in the Formula 1 series is also seven, held by Michael Schumacher. And the record for the most IndyCar championships is held by A.J. Foyt, at six. But 100 race wins in today's era for any driver would mean just about as much as eight championships would, because the competition's much stiffer than when Richard Petty and David Pearson raced. Often, wins by drivers in the 70s were accomplished only by finishing the race, because there were no other cars capable of running with them at the end of the race, because attrition knocked every other contending car out, for one reason or another. But today's competition makes any driver doing what Gordon's done (87 wins, 4 championships, and at least three wins in each of the sport's biggest events), or what Johnson's done (60 wins, 5 consecutive championships, and 10 wins in the sport's biggest events) that much more amazing. 711. Eric posted: 11.22.2012 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really don't know if Jeff Gordon will get 13 more wins. There was a question about how long Jeff will race on Espn's chat earlier this week and the guess was anywhere from 3to 4 years. Jeff is on the downside of his legendary career with him being 42 in August next year. That means Jeff will be in his mid 40's when he will retire and is likely to fall short of 100 cup wins. Drivers are able to win races past their prime like Darrell Waltrip and Richard Petty did for a time before hanging on way too long after their last win. The thing is driver past their prime usally don't win more than 3 wins a season. I do think Jeff will win a couple races next year though. If Jeff wasn't distracted in 2002 and 2003 by his divorce, Jeff would been in a little bit better shape in getting a 100 cup wins. While Jeff won 6 times in those 2 years, he might have got an additional 2 or 3 wins. Jeff in 2000 might also had a 1 or 2 more wins if that year was not an adjustment period for him and Robbie Loomis. 712. Eric posted: 11.22.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie getting 40 more wins is very tough to do. I am saying that because Jimmie has less wins at the age of 37 than Jeff Gordon did. Jimmie is going to be 38 in September of 2013. Drivers getting wins in their 40's isn't out of the question, but what he does in cup wins from Daytona 2013 to September of 2013 will determine if it is possible him to get a 100 career cup wins. That doesn't even count the factor if Chad Kanus leaves. If Chad leaves, then Jimmie really doesn't have a chance. I am saying that because crew chief changes have transition periods and Jimmie can't afford that if he wants 100 career cup wins. 713. Schroeder51 posted: 11.22.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no way Jeff Gordon will reach 100 wins. I'm a big Gordon fan and I'll openly admit that. Gordon is only...maybe 3 or 4 years away from hanging up the helmet for good, and since he's in the twilight stages of his career, I would be very, very shocked if he had one last year of glory in which he contended for the title and won 5+ races. I don't see that happening. I can see him reaching 90, maybe close to 95 if he's really lucky, but not 100. Matter of fact, I cannot see Jimmie reaching 100 either. Jimmie's already in his late 30s...I see him reaching maybe 85-90, but not 100. Matter of fact, I might be very bold in saying this, but I will go ahead and say this: I do not believe anyone will ever reach 100 wins in NASCAR's Cup Series again. Richard Petty and David Pearson will be the only drivers to EVER reach 100 wins. There will be no third driver reaching 100 wins. 714. cjs3872 posted: 11.22.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to make a correction on something I wrote in my last post. I said that Jimmie Johnson had 10 wins in NASCAR's biggest events. In fact, he has 12, four Brickyard 400s, three Coca-Cola 600s (in succession), two wins in both the spring race at Talladega and in the Southern 500, and one Daytona 500 win. Only Jeff Gordon (20) and Bobby Allison (13) have more in the sport's biggest races. 715. Eric posted: 11.22.2012 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think it is possible for a cup driver to get 100 career cup wins. I am saying that because you have to picture a driver that has the talent of a Kyle Busch, but is more matured.Kyle has 24 wins already at his age, but he could have had a lot more if he was more matured and mentally tough. Kyle Busch was only 20 win got his first cup win. I don't see that is Jeff's and Jimmie cases though. Jeff was on track for a time. I think his back injury did a number on him, plus him and Steve Letarte wasn't clicking right for wins after 2007 with Jeff's only win with Steve after 2007 was at Texas in 2009. Jimmie's problem is he age. I think Jimmie could win races even when he's 45, but asking for a driver that turned 37 in September to have another 40 wins for 100 is a tall order. 716. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2012 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another factor for Jimmie: I have a feeling his time of getting 5-7 wins per year at will is coming to an end. These dynasties of pure domination don't last long, come to an abrupt end and they seem to be getting shorter. Petty had his time from '64-'75, and most of that was shared with Pearson. Dale ruled the sport from '86-'94 then Jeff took over from '95-'01. I wouldn't totally rule out Jeff making it to 100, but that depends on how long he races. If he hangs around for another 6 or 7 years it isn't that much of a stretch. The key for his career was he got his wins in bunches. When he was hot, he pounced and feasted. He got 47 wins alone in a 5 year stretch ('95-'99). Jimmie obviously got a much later start and hasn't been able to stock pile wins like Jeff did there for a while, although he has put up impressive numbers nonetheless. But he has been better at winning titles. And as I have always said, although I hate Brain France's phony post season, you can't devalue any championships won under his system. Look through the history of NASCAR, it might not even make the Top 5 in whackiest points systems. 1974 would undoubtably be #1. And a lot of the early systems would reward points for the big races much higher than the rest of them, so every race has not always held the same weight. Again, look at '74. It was pretty much based on ONE race. The fact is the cream always rises to the top. The King won championships under 5 different systems. And the 48 leads every statistical category (except poles, but who cares?) s ince 2004. They might not have won 5 in a row, but to say they wouldn't have adapted is crazy. How many times have they seemingly pissed entire summers away testing stuff out, bringing down their season point total (which is pretty much irrelevent) but helping them for the final 10. Remember 2004? Under the season long system, they walk off in the sunset with that one. Everyone wants to give that one to Gordon, but had they not screwed around and blew 3 straight motors testing, it is the 48's easy. Now 2007 is a different story. That also would have helped Jeff historically to have a championship outside his prime years like The King ('79) and Dale ('80) had. As for the big events not meaning much due to the playoffs, the truth is their has always been a surprisingly low amount of correlation between the big races and the champions. The Daytona 500 champ rarely brings home the big prize with the excpetion of The King doing it 4 times. Look at Dale, his 7 champiionship seasons featured his most heartbreaking losses in the 500. Bad final pit stop ('80 and '87), a "where the hell did he come from?" late race pass ('91 and '93), an equalized tire while reeling from his best friend's tragic passing ('94), running out of gas ('86) andand "that race" ('90). Conversely, when he finally won it he went on to have his worst season. The only race that has shown a correlation is the Crown Royal presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at The Brickyard. There are several drivers to blame for this. Drivers like Bobby Allison, Buddy Baker, Bill Elliott, and Kevin Harvick who are big race specialists but struggle in championship fights, Jimmie Johnson winning all 3 of his World 600s before his championship streak started, Dale Earnhardt scattering all his big race wins over more than a decade ('86-'98 or '86-'00 depending on how you feel about the Winston 500) never winning more than 2 in a single year, rarely more than 1, and Darrell winning his big races before or after his championship run, winiing his Daytona 500 and Southern 500 after, and only 1 of his World 600s was in a title season. And then of course you had all those years of Pearson and Cale winning Daytona 500s and Southern 500s while not running for the title. In other words, the championship and the big races are two different worlds. So do you place more stock on somebody who can rise to the occasion for 4 hours at a time or for months at a time? You all know my choice. 717. Eric posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think Buddy Baker should be in the same category as Bobby Allison,Bill Elliott and Kevin Harvick as drivers that are big race specialists but struggle in championship fights. Buddy was from a different era than Bill and Kevin when Buddy was in his prime. Buddy Baker usually didn't try to run the full schedule. The only years he ran all races was in 1976,1977, and 1985. Buddy only missed one race in 1973. Buddy was planning run all the races in 1988 also. Buddy did a lot of tire testing for Goodyear and Firestone and he claimed in the past that he was getting better pay for tiring testing than racing when he was a driver. Buddy Baker didn't full time schedules a lot for the same reason as David Pearson didn't do Full time schedules a lot. They did the races that payed the most at the time. The other problem with Buddy was the fact he was way too hard on his equipment. He was called leadfoot for a reason and wasn't a finesse driver. If Buddy was born 20 or 30 years later, I think he would have had way more cup wins than he did. I argue that he would have had a shot for winning cup championships under today's equipment and schedule. 718. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 10:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I agree that the 1974 points system was the worst ever conceived for the reason you mentioned, but the thing with the point systems under which Petty won the championship was this. They all counted points for every race of the season, not a select few races at the end of the season. That has always been my main beef with the Chase. Quite a number of the top teams don't even try their best in the two months leading up to the Chase, just to prepare themselves for the final tem races, and if those final ten races are on tracks where said teams are strong, notably the 1.5 mile tracks, they have a real chance, but if they're usually weaker at those tracks, than they're effectively eliminated before the Chase even starts, even if they had built up a suzeable point lead. And as for the big races having a correlation with the championship. Did I ever say they did? But what I'm saying is that since there are no big races in the Chase, it takes even more from the big races, effectively making them meaningless, so much so that some of the top teams even use the biggest events, which every team used to try to win harder than the others, as throwaway races. and the reason why the Brickyard 400 has the most correlation to the championship is this. You need everything to win there, because although IMS is one of the easiest tracks to drive, it may be the hardest to win at because it showcases a thorough examination of a team in every way possible. 719. loomer posted: 11.23.2012 - 11:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So apparently the 2012 chase pulled in the lowest ratings and viewership ever in the chase era. Next year could be a make or break year for the sport. 720. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2012 - 11:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The first 26 aren't totally meaningless. First off, you have to get in. How many times have we seen a driver miss the playoffs, then have a very good final 10? Jamie Mac '04, Gordon '05, Smoke '06, KyBu '12. While these weren't necessarily championship performances, they could have made things interesting. And secondly there is the seeding. What if Carl doesn't get stunned by Regan at Darlington last year and gets those 3 bonus points for winning that race for the final 10? Again this isn't 1974 where Pearson didn't run the full schedule and still finished 3rd cause he finished 3rd in the 500. As for the big races, I don't have the numbers written down, but I went back and looked at the winners of the Daytona 500, the Southern 500, and the World 600 to see just how often the winners of those big races won the title. My ghast was flabbered. If any of you get the chance, compare those numbers to the number of times the winner of the Spring Martinsville race won the title and how many times the winner of the Fall Martinsville race won the title (seperately). Which reminds me, why isn't Martinsville a "major"? Historic track that has been around forever? Check. All the legends have raced there and won there? Check. One of the top drivers who just couldn't get over the hump and win there (Bobby)? Check. Trophy that everybody wants and cherishes? Check. True test of driving ability and mechanical grip? Check. Very few "who?" winners? Check. And if Martinsville were a major, how differently would we view the "big race heroics" of Bobby Allison and Rusty Wallace? 721. David posted: 11.23.2012 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to be a salesman here, but David Smith is offering access to all 2012 MotorsportsAnalytics.com content for 99 cents. 722. David posted: 11.23.2012 - 11:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeb Burton has signed a two-year contract with Turner Motorsports for a full Truck Series schedule and a partial Nationwide schedule. 723. Bronco posted: 11.23.2012 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Cup Series Stats Most wins - Jimmie Johnson (5 wins, 3 runner-up finishes) Most poles - Jimmie Johnson (4 poles and 3 2nd place starts) Most DNFS of non start and park drivers than ran all 36 races - Jimmie Johnson (6, Daytona1, Talladega1, Daytona2, Michigan2, Atlanta, Homestead) Most laps led - Jimmie Johnson (1744) Most laps led in a victory - Jimmie Johnson (289 at Dover in June) Most top tens - Jimmie Johnson (24) Most top fives - Jimmie Johnson (18) Most earnings - Jimmie Johnson ($7 million) Most laps led in a single race - Jeff Gordon (329 at Martinsville in April) Most laps led without a win - Martin Truex Jr (434) Best average finish - Brad Keselowski (10.1) Most lead lap finishes - Greg Biffle (32) Most popular win - Dale Jr (Michigan in June) Fastest pole speed - Marcos Ambrose (Michigan in June) Most popular driver - Dale Jr 724. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But not only has eight championships never been achieved in NASCAR's top series, it's never been done in any of the other major series, either." Sebastien Loeb - 9 straight World Rally Championship titles I know almost nobody in the US cares about WRC, but it's considered one of the largest series globally (bigger than NASCAR outside North America) and he hardly deserves to be overlooked. Hell, he finished 2nd in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in his only start there, so he's very adaptable. Giacomo Agostini - 8 (proto-)MotoGP titles Also huge globally (where it's considered the F1 of motorcycle racing) and a bit bigger here than WRC is. No, he's not technically a driver but he still shouldn't be overlooked. John Force - 15 NHRA Funny Car titles (including 10 consecutively) Bob Glidden - 10 NHRA Pro Stock titles Yeah, it's a very different sort of thing but it probably gets higher ratings in the US than F1 or IndyCar's NBC Sports races regardless... I'm sure there are other examples of drivers who won a boatload of championships in other national touring series like BTCC or something as well. That's not even counting drivers like Scott Pruett who have won multiple championships in several different sports car formulae (largely because sports car sanctioning bodies are largely ephemeral and rapidly come and go): 3 Trans-Am championships, 2 IMSA championships, and FIVE Grand-Am championships. Although Trans-Am fell HARD in the last 15 years or so, those series were all considered pretty big deals when he was dominating them. Yes, Pruett was generally mediocre in CART and godawful on ovals in NASCAR, but his sports car career is freaking legendary. At this point he's probably second to Hurley Haywood on the list of best U.S. sports car drivers EVER... I'm sure other sports car drivers (Tom Kristensen) would have racked up LOTS of titles if they had had one stable series to compete in over an extended period of time. Some people would count World of Outlaws as major league. I probably wouldn't, but if you do, then Steve Kinser almost certainly has more major league titles than anyone... No, nobody has more than 7 Cup, F1, or IndyCar titles, but those aren't the only series out there... "Which reminds me, why isn't Martinsville a "major"?" Because it isn't a big money race. But yes, it, like the other short tracks and road courses is where talent is shown most predominantly. I'll grant that Indy (although the races are boring) and Darlington are usually good talent indicators, but Daytona and Talladega are just some combination of equipment strength plus randomness plus luck... Gordon will finish with around 92 wins probably, and I was saying that around 2004-05 also. I never really thought he'd reach 100. 725. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Most popular win" Really? That's not a statistic... 726. murb posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank Kimmel also has 9 Arca championships. A lot of people don't count that as a major series, but you can't argue that Arca has just as much history and longevity as Nascar in the United States. 727. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A lot of people don't count that as a major series" I don't either. I find it VERY hard to take seriously. Kerry Earnhardt and Jason Jarrett have won races. David Stremme lapped the field once. Scott Speed was a title contender... Etc... Etc... I DO like the diversity of their schedule, but their talent pool usually leaves much to be desired. That's not to say Frank Kimmel couldn't have been successful in Cup with the right team, but what was his competition for most of that period? WRC, MotoGP, NHRA, etc... are THE top series in their respective disciplines. You could say WoO is too (although USAC fans might disagree). Nobody would rate ARCA higher than Cup, and for good reason. 728. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That reminds me of the problem with sports cars. There have been SO many sports car series that had prestige at one point nobody agrees on WHICH is the premier league. Can-Am, Trans-Am, Grand-Am, ALMS, IMSA, World Sports Car Championship (which eventually became defunct), World Endurance Championship (it would probably be this but that's a brand new series), FIA GT, Blancpain Endurance Series... NASCAR over ARCA indisputably though. It says a lot that even Nationwide and the trucks are rated higher without question. I think K&N East this year had more talent than ARCA probably. Kyle Larson and Darrell Wallace, Jr. have certainly shown more talent in their Nationwide/truck starts than Alex Bowman has... 729. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when I mentioned major racing series, I meant the major racing series where all competitors are racing at the same time, and there are only three, NASCAR's top series, IndyCar, and F1. Obviously there are other series in which drivers have won more titles, a number of which you named, though one you forgot is the World of Outlaws, where Steve Kinser has won 20 championships, and that has been the biggest sprint car series since it was first formed in 1978. But what I was simply referring to is the major racing series we know of where all the competitors are racing against each other, and no driver has ever won more than seven championships in any of them. And DSFF, Pearson finished third in 1974 because of all the races he won (he won seven races that year), not because of his Daytona 500 performance, because he only completed 41 laps in that race, dropping out with a broken drive shaft and finishing 35th. And the thing with the races at Martinsville is that every race has been the sane distance and had the same character for countless years, so there's nothing different about one that separates it from the other. On the other hand, Daytona has only had one 500-mile race annually, and the other has either been 250 or 400 miles. Darlington had the first 500-mile race in NASCAR, and the only one annually until 1959. What makes the Coca-Cola 600 so special is that it's the longest oval track race in the world, and it was meant to be that way, starting in 1960, when the Charlotte Motor Speedway was first built. Talladega has always had the fastest race, and with one exception (the July race in 1978), the 500-mile record has always been set in the spring race there, and Indy is Indy, and the track and it's history, rather than the competition, is what makes that such a big race, and as you yourself mentioned, DSFF, the one race among the truly big races that will truly separate the teams, because of the thorough examination that IMS demands, because while it's one of the easiest tracks to drive, it's one of the hardest to win at, because you need everything to win there. 730. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Sean, the only drivers that I can think of that ever transferred from ARCA and had successful Cup careers were Benny Parsons and Davey Allison. Parsons won two ARCA titles, and won the 1973 Cup title, the 1975 Daytona 500, and the 1980 Coca-Cola 600, and Allison parlayed superspeedway success in ARCA into big-time success in his tragically brief career in NASCAR's top series, which included wins in the Daytona 500 (1992), Coca-Cola 600 (1991), three wins in the Talladega spring race (1987, '89, and '92), and Davey's still the only driver ever to successfully defend an All-Star Race win (1991-'92), more than 20 years after it happened, and he would almost certainly have beena multi-time Cup champion had he not been killed in that helicpoter crash at Talladega in 1993. In fact, I think I once heard Donnie Allison say that Davey and Jeff Gordon would have been the next truly great rivalry. In fact, Jeff has done the very things I once predicted Davey would do, including pass Bobby Allison's career win total of 85. 731. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sean, when I mentioned major racing series, I meant the major racing series where all competitors are racing at the same time, and there are only three, NASCAR's top series, IndyCar, and F1." I can see excluding NHRA and WRC by that rule, but not MotoGP or sports cars (and like I said, the only reason nobody has won eight titles in a sports car series if nobody has is because most sports car series don't last long). "Obviously there are other series in which drivers have won more titles, a number of which you named, though one you forgot is the World of Outlaws, where Steve Kinser has won 20 championships, and that has been the biggest sprint car series since it was first formed in 1978." I didn't forget him: "Some people would count World of Outlaws as major league. I probably wouldn't, but if you do, then Steve Kinser almost certainly has more major league titles than anyone..." I just think USAC usually has more talent, judging by what its drivers have done elsewhere, but you do have a point that people see WoO as a destination and people DON'T see USAC as a destination (because the top USAC drivers would usually rather succeed in NASCAR, while the top WoO drivers are content to be the big fish in a small pond). That's not to say there's not a lot of crossover, though. Kyle Larson was rather dominant in his appearances in both this year... "And Sean, the only drivers that I can think of that ever transferred from ARCA and had successful Cup careers were Benny Parsons and Davey Allison." I've also come to that conclusion. I would not call Jeremy Mayfield successful and him having an extended Cup career was honestly inexplicable to me based on only 1 ARCA win and no Busch wins, although he had MOMENTS of decency... Oh, and I hardly think Davey counts because he would have been in Cup regardless. "He would almost certainly have been a multi-time Cup champion had he not been killed in that helicopter crash at Talladega in 1993" I think his career would have been a lot closer to Mark Martin's...about half the wins you predicted, MAYBE a title but probably not (since Earnhardt and Gordon were just better). Better than Dale Jarrett, but I don't think RYR would have been as strong if he'd lived for various reasons, and no one will be able to convince me he at his peak was better than Ernie Irvan at his peak (even though it seems 95% of fans think so). Irvan was overachieving in the #4 more than Davey was in the #28, and although I'll grant that Ford was much stronger from late '93 to '94, Irvan was still blowing out Davey's results immediately before his death. I simply think 1992 WAS Davey's peak (and it came in a year when any non-Fords were FAR off the pace, which is why it isn't THAT impressive to me...kind of like Greg Biffle's 2005 in a similar situation). Davey's like a 30th place all-time driver who has been inflated to top ten by fans because he was so likable. In an era when there are almost no likable drivers, I can see that, but I'm starting to think he is the most overrated driver in Cup history. (Better than other overrated drivers like Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Jeff Burton, Buddy Baker, Harvick, Junior, or Edwards of course, but they aren't rated as highly). Nearly 100 wins from him? Sorry, I don't see it. 732. Sean posted: 11.23.2012 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Irvan was still [at the end of '93/early '94] blowing out Davey's results [which he posted] immediately before his death... That should make it clearer. NOT trying to say Irvan was that much better in the #4 than Davey in the #28 in the first half of '93. 733. Bronco posted: 11.23.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, since people are talking about how Brad won a championship before any of his Nationwide rivals did (Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards) let's not forget just how damn lucky Brad was during the final 10 races. Dover - Brad somehow has enough fuel to not only complete the race but do several burnouts afterwards as well - won a race with what was a 4th place car at best. Talladega - Went from something like 23rd to 7th in a split second just because he wasn't involved in the wreck. Probably his biggest stroke of luck overall. Kansas - Narrowly escaped getting collected in the Newman-Busch wreck Phoenix - Again, he escaped the Gordon-Bowyer wreck and received only minimal damage in the wreck on the final lap. Last but not least, Brad's biggest rival for the championship held the points lead with two to go, but lost it due to a wreck and a mechanical failure. If that isn't the biggest stroke of luck, then I don't know what is. If they had the kind of luck that Brad did, then Carl Edwards would have won the 2008 and 2011 championships and Denny Hamlin would have won the 2010 championship. 734. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.23.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Figure i'd come out of my self-imposed ban to talk about something i found interesting. "Sebastien Loeb - 9 straight World Rally Championship titles I know almost nobody in the US cares about WRC, but it's considered one of the largest series globally (bigger than NASCAR outside North America) and he hardly deserves to be overlooked. Hell, he finished 2nd in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in his only start there, so he's very adaptable." 2003 he lost by 1 point to Peter Solberg. Just imagen, he'd have 10 in a row. He has also done with 3 different styles of cars from Citroen. Loeb has also done this in a sport that is just about the hardest motorsport out there. "Giacomo Agostini - 8 (proto-)MotoGP titles Also huge globally (where it's considered the F1 of motorcycle racing) and a bit bigger here than WRC is. No, he's not technically a driver but he still shouldn't be overlooked." He also won 7 350cc championships, so he has 15 in total. "I'm sure there are other examples of drivers who won a boatload of championships in other national touring series like BTCC or something as well." Looked up BTCC, no one has more then 3. Only person closest to 7 championship is Bernd Schneider is closest, he has 6 DTM championships (2 in the old, 4 in the new). Also look up V8 Supers and WTCC, no one has more then 5 in either (the FIA canceled WTCC in its first year because they were afraid of it taking money away from F1. Morons.) 735. Eric posted: 11.23.2012 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Dale Jr. always been very overrated or very underrated. I am saying that because people claim Dale Jr. is still only in NASCAR because of his Dad's name and the only way he wins is by NASCAR fixing races. Those two statements makes Dale Jr. underrated. Dale Jr. actually was a 2 time Busch series champion. Dale has 19 cup wins, but to say they fixed is ridiculous. Dale Jr. also has 3 top 5 points finishes in finishes. At the same time, Dale Jr. is overrated by the amount of attention he gets because of who his father is and how popular is. Based on the popularity and the hype he gets, you thought he would have more than 19 career cup wins and has a least a title. The other thing that makes him overrated is the fact he only had 4 wins after 2004 with all media attention. If you don't believe that people claim NASCAR fixes race how do you explain all the people outside of this site make that claim on the internet. I am talking about places like Yahoo, NASCAR.com, and ESPN as examples. 736. Eric posted: 11.23.2012 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention yes, there people are that claim Dale Jr's win's are fixed are on this site. There is one on Dale Jr.'s comment page on this site matter of fact. 737. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.23.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dover - Brad somehow has enough fuel to not only complete the race but do several burnouts afterwards as well - won a race with what was a 4th place car at best." Go complain about Clint's Richmond win. "Last but not least, Brad's biggest rival for the championship held the points lead with two to go, but lost it due to a wreck and a mechanical failure. If that isn't the biggest stroke of luck, then I don't know what is." You do realize that it was Jimmie who had the Golden Horseshoe all these years prior right? Cry more. 738. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Davey would have been right up there with Jeff Gordon had it not been for his fatal helicopter crash. Remember that he was 32 years of age at the time of his death, and had already won 19 times, which was an astounding number of wins for a driver that age back then, and he was only beginning to reach his peak. Remember that he also won five times in 1991, and for much of 1993 was the top Ford driver in the points, rising to as high as second at one brief point. And I had predicted in about 1992 that he would end up with more wins than his father had, and I still believe there was a good chance of that happening until his fatal helicopter crash. The one thing Davey lacked, and I think he would have gotten it had he not been killed, and it was a big reason why he did not win the title in 1992, was consistency. Davey and his team were never very consistent, but he accomplished something not even Dale Earnhardt was able to do until years after his death, and that was to win at every kind of track. But what you say about the Fords having such a big advantage in 1992, which was true, was exactly the opposite in 1993, because the Fords weren't very competitve, as a group, for most of that season. Davey's only win was at a short track, Geoff Bodine's only win was at a road course, Junior Johnson went winless for the first time ever, the Wood Brothers were their usual consistent selves, not winning much, though they did win a fuel mileage race at Atlanta, and they were probably third only to Robert Yates and Jack Roush among the Ford teams that year, and Roush didn't get hot until the season was two-thirds over, which was when Ford picked up the pace that season. 739. Eric posted: 11.23.2012 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, It was more than Junior Johnson was in a Ford why he went winless for the first time ever in 1993. Junior Johnson fired people from Bill Elliott's team including his 1992 crew chief Time Brewer. Junior Johnson also was going through a divorce also. 740. Eric posted: 11.23.2012 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since Thanksgiving is over, I am going to share a prediction. There will be more cautions in 2013 and will be less fuel mileage races. I am saying that because of Stenhouse. Stenhouse is going to be a rookie next year and the fact is some rookies in the cup seris in the past are capable of being cautions or have at least 10 DNF's in a season. I think Stenhouse is going to be another one of those drivers. I think that will affect Brad and Clint in terms of wins to a point, but at the same time Brad would have won Charlotte. Those 2 drivers still be in the chase. I think the drivers that will be helped by less fuel mileage races in 2013 will be Hamlin and Kyle Busch. I am saying Kyle Busch because if fuel mileage wasn't in play, Kyle would have had 2 wins in the chase. 741. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That may be true Eric, but the fact that his was a Ford team didn't help, either. In fact, Johnson's #11 team did run better during the second half of the season than it did in the first half of the season. But there's another factor involved that is hardly ever brought up, and that is that he had a driver in his second car that was not as good as the team for which he was driving. Hut Stricklin drove Junior's second car that season, and other than the plate races, he was a disaster. Now they didn't share information like they do now, but having a guy like Stricklin in such a premium car also dragged Elliott down in 1993. In effect, Elliott had the same problem then as Kevin Harvick has been having with Richard Childress over the last two years, and that's nobody else on his level to help all the organization's teams go to a higher level, because Elliott was Junior's only competitve driver, just as Harvick is Childress' only competitve Cup driver now. That's one reason he's leaving RCR at the end of the 2013 season. 742. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.23.2012 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had Davey gone on and completed his career in NASCAR with RYR, he wins at least 3 Winston Cus. As for Brad's luck, what about Jimmie creaming the wall at Kansas and somehow not damaging anything important and finishing just behind Brad, or his luck with the 3 late race cautions at Texas and NASCAR's no call on beating Brad to the line which I have no problem with, but they nailed Sadler in NWide for the same thing at Indy. 743. Talon64 posted: 11.23.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, since people are talking about how Brad won a championship before any of his Nationwide rivals did (Denny Hamlin and Carl Edwards) let's not forget just how damn lucky Brad was during the final 10 races. Dover - Brad somehow has enough fuel to not only complete the race but do several burnouts afterwards as well - won a race with what was a 4th place car at best. Talladega - Went from something like 23rd to 7th in a split second just because he wasn't involved in the wreck. Probably his biggest stroke of luck overall. Kansas - Narrowly escaped getting collected in the Newman-Busch wreck Phoenix - Again, he escaped the Gordon-Bowyer wreck and received only minimal damage in the wreck on the final lap. Last but not least, Brad's biggest rival for the championship held the points lead with two to go, but lost it due to a wreck and a mechanical failure. If that isn't the biggest stroke of luck, then I don't know what is. If they had the kind of luck that Brad did, then Carl Edwards would have won the 2008 and 2011 championships and Denny Hamlin would have won the 2010 championship." So basically, Keselowski got the same lucky breaks that Johnson enjoyed for 5 straight seasons. Like Carl's blown engine at Charlotte in 2008, Talladega pretty much every season, and Denny Hamlin's 2010 choke job. It wasn't luck that cost Hamlin that championship, it was simply their own failings in crunch time. And like DSFF said, Kansas should've been so much worse for Johnson than it ended up being. To end up 9th instead of 25th like he should've been was 75% luck, and 25% Knaus realizing how lucky they were and deciding to fix it on pit road, which basically gifted them about 15 points. At the end of the day the #2 team's equipment was 100% reliable, in a season where EFI issues mired their start to 2012, they made the fewest mistakes, got the lucky breaks along the way that most legit championship contenders enjoy (there's something to making your own luck) and then had the performance to take advantage of it all and win the championship. 744. 10andJoe posted: 11.23.2012 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >That reminds me of the problem with sports cars. There have been SO many sports car series that had prestige at one point nobody agrees on WHICH is the premier league. Can-Am, Trans-Am, Grand-Am, ALMS, IMSA, World Sports Car Championship (which eventually became defunct), World Endurance Championship (it would probably be this but that's a brand new series), FIA GT, Blancpain Endurance Series... Trans-Am was (and is) actually a very different series than the other series listed. Can-Am > IMSA > Grand-Am/ALMS are the endurance/sprint sports-car series, that did/do the 24 Hours of Daytona, the 12 Hours of Sebring, and such. Trans-Am, on the other hand, was always the "muscle car" series. Mustangs, Camaros, Javelins back in the day... T/A was much closer to stock car racing than sports car racing, in that it was big, burly cars with V-8s running (compared to the enduros) short races. At least, that was the "classic" Trans-Am, up until Gentelozzi et.al. managed to kill it. I can't speak for the current incarnation of Trans-Am. (As an interesting footnote, in discussing professional vs amateur series for notability purposes, Wikipedia's community-adopted guidelines for race drivers specificially use Trans-Am as the example of a fully professional series) 745. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, about as many wins as Jeff Gordon has now, because he had about 15 years left in him at least, and he already had 19 wins to his credit, which is why Donnie Allison said that the next great rivalry would have been Davey Allison and Jeff Gordon, once Earnhardt was past his prime. In effect, Jeff Gordon has had the very same Cup career many thought Davey would have had if he hadn't been killed, because Davey might have won the championships his father couldn't win, although his team choked away the only chance Davey had at the title in 1992. 746. Baker posted: 11.23.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No one has evern won 8 championships? I know some have already be mentioned but, John Froce 15 time champ Steve Kinser the king of kings has 21 championhips. 747. cjs3872 posted: 11.23.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said Baker, nobody has ever won more than seven championships in a major racing series where all the competitors race at the same time, but there are series where drivers have won more than seven. For instance, you and others have mentioned John Force winning 15 championships, but he was only racing one other competitor at a time. I mentioned that Steve Kinser has won 20 championships in the World of Outlaws series, the most prestigous sprint car series there is, but it's not what I would call a major racing series, though they race as much in one year as a Cup competitor would in three seasons of racing. But to me, there's a big difference in those championship totals, as incredible as they are, and those where you have to race you competitors in the best racing series in the world, and nobody has ever won more than seven championships in those series. 748. Baker posted: 11.24.2012 - 2:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would then still argue A.J. Foyt who won 7 open wheel championships and 3 USAC Stock Car championships when a lot of the compitition races in both USAC Stock Cars and NASCAR. Oh and I would say the World of Outlaws and NHRA are major racing series. More than half the drivers in Cup couldn't handle a Sprint Car around Eldora to the extent of being championship caliber and just as many probably couldn't do what John Force does behind the wheel of a funny car. Just because it takes a different type of driving ability and it doesn't get the same coverage from espn doesn't make it any less major of a racing series. 749. David posted: 11.24.2012 - 9:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Marty Smith wrote a great article about Shane Hmiel on ESPN.com. 750. awesomegordonfan posted: 11.24.2012 - 10:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) World of Outlaws isn't major at all. NHRA certainly is...but ask random people around the nation if they've heard of WoO, NHRA, IndyCar, NASCAR, etc., and they'll most likely rank NASCAR, Indy, NHRA, WoO (excluding others not mentioned). WoO is probably about equal to the Whelen Modifieds. 751. Eric posted: 11.24.2012 - 1:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am with Baker and awesomegordonfan with NHRA. NHRA to me a major racing series in Auto racing. It requires different skill. The reason all the cars are not racing at the sametime is because of safety. I am saying safety because what needs to be taken in account is what happens if one of those cars goes flying. NHRA cars do go flying once if a while. 752. Eric posted: 11.24.2012 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my 2013 predictions on the races I think are Majors: 2013 Daytona 500 - Kyle Busch . I know people might be wondering how I can pick him. Kyle has a teammate he can draft with now in Matt Kenseth. Matt is the best teammate Kyle has for drafting since Tony Stewart. Other Drivers I considered: Kevin Harvick, Stewart, Biffle, Kurt Busch and Bowyer. I wouldn't consider Dale Jr. because I don't know how he'll respond to plate racing after the concussion he got from Talladega. Southern 500 - Matt Kenseth. People might wonder how I can pick Matt here despite him being up and down at this track. The 20 car with Joey had pretty good runs here. JGR has a good record at Darlington with them currently having Kyle and Denny being winners at that track. Other drivers I considered for Southern 500: Jimmie Johnson, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick and Greg Biffle. Coco-Cola 600 - Brad Keselowski. People may question why I wouldn't pick Kasey. Asking a driver to win back to back 600 races is a tough task to do. The other reason is Brad was great in the 600 last year and I think he might have had a chance to win it if it wasn't for his pit road mistake. Other drivers I considered for the 600: Kasey Kahne, Jimmie Johnson, Kevin Harvick, Matt Kenseth, Clint Bowyer Kyle Busch and Tony Stewart. Brickyard 400: Matt Kenseth. People Might question Picking Matt. Matt actually had some good results here with Roush with him having 5 top 5's and 7 top 10's in 13 starts here including 2nd place finishes here and Gibbs still bring good equipment at Indy. Indy is a tough place for a driver to get back to back wins two times in their career and I wouldn't pick Jimmie as a result. Other drivers I considered: Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin,Jimmie Johnson, Kevin Harvick, and Tony Stewart. 753. Eric posted: 11.24.2012 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't have Jeff as a driver that I consider for Daytona 500, Southern 500, Coco-Cola 600, and the Brickyard 400 for a reason. If this was Jeff Gordon even 6 years ago, I would have picked him. Jeff is on the downside of his career and he doesn't seem the speed on big tracks as much as he used to based 2011 despite his wins at Pocono and Homestead. I didn't even look at for Daytona because Jeff only had 4 top 10 finishes at Daytona since 2006. 754. BON GORDON posted: 11.24.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PREDICTION. Jeff Gordon will win a crown jewel race in 2013. 755. cjs3872 posted: 11.24.2012 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I wouldn't e so sure about that with Jeff not being able to win because of the stage of his career that he's in. Remember that Bobby Allison's final two wins both came at Daytona, one of Richard Petty's last serious bids at winning was at the Daytona 500 in 1987. In fact, Gordon's experience figures to play in his favor at Daytona more than it would just about anywhere else. One of the big reasons that Gordon, along with the other Hendrick drivers, have not fared well at Daytona in recent years has to do with the bad race strategy of running in the back that's an organization-wide problem, and has been ever since the car that they have been running was first run at the plate tracks. But I'll be honest, haveing Kasey Kahne as a teammate my not help him, either, especially when you consider Kahne's the one HMS driver that Gordon does not have some kind of rivalry with, cause Kahne has been notoriously weak in the Daytona 500, much like Harry Gant was. I'll also disagree with you on Kahne not being one to pick for the Coca-Cola 600, because I picked Kahne to win this past 600 last off-season, because Charlotte is Kahne's best track, and always has been. One reason not t pick Kahne is this. Only one driver, Darrell Waltrip, has ever won the Coca-Cola 600 more than three times. Three of HMS' four drivers have that going against them, with Dale Earnhardt, Jr. being the only exception. I'm not going to make any predictions for another month (Christmas and New Year's is when I usually make predictions for the following year), but I think there's a good chance that Gordon, NASCAR's version of Jack Nicklaus, will win at least one of the big ones this in 2013, and it may be the Daytona 500. After all, if he gets in contention, who knows what the others might think, especially if it's those that have never won it before, because if Gordon's the one stalking them, it might be a situation where the others may be hearing those footsteps that were so familiar for so many years, footsteps that they haven't heard for a while, and they might make moves that they could regret. Just look at what happened in 2005 with Tony Stewart. He had never won it before (and still hasn't), and with Gordon staking him in the closing laps, he started to make mistakes, and it finally cost him with Gordon and Dale, Jr. So if Gordon contends in the Daytona 500 again next year, we may see the effects of others hearing "those footsteps". 756. Eric posted: 11.24.2012 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs387, I already knew that Charlotte was Kasey's best track,but there is an issue besides winning 3 600 mile races. Lets take a history of how many drivers won back to back World 600/ Coco Cola races and the last a driver won the 600 in back to back years. Buddy Baker, Darrell Waltrip (1978,1979,1988, and 1989) Neil Bonnett, Dale Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon, and Jimmie Johnson's 3 straight 600 wins were the drivers that were back to back 600's. I know it may Shock people that David Pearson never won back to back 600 races considering David's history at the track with him having 6 wins at Charlotte and 14 poles. There has been a good amount of drivers that had back to back 600 wins, but there is issues on why on its tough for Kasey for 2013 No driver has won the 600 in back to back years since Jimmie Johnson did in 2005. While Kasey now has won 3 600's, but he never won back to back Coco Cola 600 in his first two times tried to win the 600 in back to back years. Kasey is the only driver after Jimmie's last 600 win that won the 600 in 3 different year despite not doing a three peat. The 2nd thing is no driver won back to back times for the 600 after the track was repaved for the 2005 Coco Cola 600. While Jimmie won the 600 in 2005 with it being his last of 3 straight 600 wins, but Jimmie last win for the 600 was for a different surface. There also is the fact after Jimmie's win, there has been some drivers that won the 600 that you didn't expect or expected to win at the time. Casey Mears and David Reutimmann are the most unlikely winners of the 600 in a long time. Kurt Busch was unlikely winner there because he had problems finishing majors off for wins. Kevin Harvick in 2011 was an unlikely winner of the 600 because he had a very bad record at Charlotte there prior before the 2011 Coco-Cola 600 win. Kevin only had 4 top 10's at Charlotte before the 2011 Coco Cola 600. Kevin to this date only had 2 top 5's at this track. The other thing is there is a new car that all the teams will race this year. That means what advantage Kasey had last year, may not be there next year. I know Kasey has won the 600 in the old car, and the COT. 757. cjs3872 posted: 11.24.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Point taken, Eric. Remember that Bobby Allison and David Pearson, both of who won the 600 three times, each had periods of at least 10 years between their first and second vicroties in that event. Allison waited 10 years for his second 600 victory (1971 to '81), while Pearson had to wait 13 for his second (1961 to '74), but recent three-time winners of that event got theirs in clusters. Jeff Gordon needed just five years (1994-'98), Kahne seven (2006-'12), and Johnson is the only three-time consecutive winner in event history (2003-'05). But also, Kahne was right there in 2009, running in second and about to make a move when the rains came, and had his team elected to stay out, would have made it back-to-back. The thing about Kahne is that his style is perfect for that race, as he just waits for the 300-350 mile mark to make his move, a lot like the way David Pearson and Darrell Waltrip used to run that race. Even Jimmie Johnson, as great as he's been over the years there, usually fades a bit toward the end of that race. But Kahne's conservative style fits that race to a tee. But again, I'm not making any predictions for another month, so you'll just have to wait until I make mine to see who I pick to win the big events and make the Chase. But when I do, they'll show up both on this comments page, as well as a blog. 758. Eric posted: 11.24.2012 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my 2012 predictions on the organizations and its drivers: RCR- I don't see any driver this year doing to the chase. The 29 will have problems this year with Kevin Harvick being a lame duck driver. I think matter of fact Richard Childress will not being getting his equipment to the 29 I Believe. I am going by RCR was with Elliott Sadler after announcing he is leaving them. I wouldn't rule out the 29 to get a top 15 in points though. I see Jeff Burton get a top 20 in points, but will be gone after the season. Paul Menard would be in the top 20 in points some where. RCR is really have a new crew chief for Jeff Burton for preparing the teams for 2014. Furniture Row Racing- I think this team has a chase for the chase I think they will be the chase. While they are single car team, Richard Childress on the NASCAR Hub in October actually looks upon the 78 as a RCR team. What I gather RCR giver them support and share notes. I think the 78 team will be getting better equipment than the 29 matter of fact. Those notes will be helpful since each organization is only allowed 4 test dates next year of their choice. Kurt is a talented driver and RCR would make sure the 78 will be in the chase. If Kurt behaves, being in the chase wouldn't a problem, but they will not be winning the championship. Kurt could win a race before the chase. If the 78 team wins, it would be a plate track or a driver's track such as a road course. Richard is giving this team great equipment because the fact is if Kurt doesn't piss anyone off, Kurt will be a driver for RCR, not Furniture Row Racing. Hendrick - Dale Jr. is only driver of the bench not to be in the chase. While I think Jeff is pass his prime, asking 2 or 3 out of him wouldn't be out the question. I think Jeff could finish anywhere from 5th to 10th in points. My reasoning of Dale Jr. not being in the chase goes to a couple things. If he gets a win, it would be out of the ordinary for 2013 based the fact I think driver can't be as good as 2012. It seemed like after he came back from the 2 concussions in 6 weeks he wasn't the same driver before that Kansas testing crash. The 2nd thing is the how he will handle the new car. I think he'll finish somewhere in the top 20 in points. Jimmie Johnson could be anywhere from 1st to 10th in points. Jimmie will have anywhere from 3 to 7 cup wins. It depends on how the 48 team is outside of the driver. If Chad wants to leave the 48 team, that will be a set back. Kasey should be better in his 2nd year in Hendrick. I won't shocked if wins more this year. He could finish as high as 3rd in points. Stewart Haas Racing - Organization will be on the decline, but Stewart will be in the chase a wild card due to wins. He is going to win anywhere from 2 to 3 times. Stewart's focus is my concern. Go Daddy sponsorship contraction is up after this year. Newman isn't going to win a race and I expect him to be done next year since Newman has sponsor issues. Newman should finish top 20 in points. Harvick and his sponsors will taking over the 39. Danica might pull off 2 to 4 top 10's. They will be plate races and road courses. She should could be anywhere from 25 to 30th in points. Ganassi: No driver is the chase. I think the 1 and 42 might end up in the top 20 in points at beast despite having better engines in Hedrick. Montoya may pull of a win, but will be done in order for the wild card. Jamie may pull off a plate win, but where in points is a factor. I wouldn't be shocked if one of both driver will be gone after 2014. Tommy Baldwin Racing - organization finish in the 35 in points from one of its teams, but is not a well founded organization. May get a top 10 at a plate race and that is it for expecting out that organization. Roush - 2 out of 3 teams will make the chase. Stenhouse at beast will be anywhere 15th to 25th in points. It depends how much of a caution machine he'll be as a rookie, but there will be less fuel millage races next year thanks to him. Since the top finishes of a rookie only count for rookie of the year, Stenhouse gets that over Danica. Carl is a title threat with his new crew chief. He could win anywhere from 2 to 4 times next year. Greg Biffle will be in the chase, but can't see him be a title threat. He's good for 1 to 3 wins. Penske - Brad is going to be in the chase, but it is not easy to pull of back to back championships. Brad will get at least 3 wins although a fuel win is unlikely thanks to less fuel mileage races thanks to Stenhouse. Penske isn't with dodge and the team will deal with a new car besides. Brad can finish top 5 in points. Joey isn't going to in the chase despite having a win isn't out the question. He'll finish anywhere from 15 to 20th in points. Wood Brothers - part time team. I don't expect any wins from them, but getting a couple tens isn't out the question. Petty Motorsports- 1 driver in the chase. They will not get the support as they did last year. Ambrose will be a chase driver. I see him winning the two road courses and get maybe 5 to 7 more top 10's before the chase. If Penske was still with Dodge, I think Aric would've had a chase for being in the chase based on how the 43 was late in the season. Aric will be anywhere from 15 to 20th in points. Front Row - Doesn't matter the driver, they will not be high in points. They only be a threat at plate tracks. JGR - All three teams going to chase. All 3 teams capable of getting 3 to 5 wins each isn't out of the question. The organization will be helped by more cautions in races in 2013 thanks to Stenhouse and that means more wins for the organization. 18 team can finish in the top 5 in points thanks to Matt's leadership. Hamlin can finish in the top 3 in points. Matt Kenseth is capable of finishing in the top 3 in points. MWR- Clint will be the chase, but it be a down year for the organization. I think think highly of Scott Miller, but when he was at RCR, RCR was behind in COT for a few years. 55 car is going to be hurt for having multiple drivers in a year that has a new car. Truex will not make the chase because team was streaky plus new car and a driver that can't seal the deal for the win equals team that can finish 13th to 15th in points. Clint isn't going to have the year like last year, but it is not a curse. Clint will win on drivers tracks, don't count on intermediate tracks for him. Clint's amount of wins will go down, but that is do to Stenhouse bringing cautions out. Clint can finish in the top 5 in points in a MWR down year. BK Racing - Teams might finish in the top 30 in points. Teams should be better due to new car and that means more on a even playing field. Don't know the drivers at this team and it shouldn't really matter. They should be getting at least 2 top 10's as an organization in 2013. JTG-Daugherty - Top 30 in points with washed up driver. Will get a top 10 some point in 2013. Team really doesn't seem to care about winning and really isn't getting any help from other Toyota teams. The cars is are off and expect to be worse under new car. Why Bobby Labonte sticks with these team instead the possibility of being competitive in the Truck series is beyond me. 759. Spen posted: 11.25.2012 - 3:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Something I just realized. Brad was 11th in points 13 races into the season, and yet still won the full season title. I think that's a first. 760. 44andJoe posted: 11.25.2012 - 3:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, it's official, Stephen Leicht is ROTY. 761. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.25.2012 - 12:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey where have you been Spen 762. Anon posted: 11.25.2012 - 12:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon > Dale Sr 763. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol. That's cute. 764. David posted: 11.25.2012 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon > Dale Sr" "Lol. That's cute." DSFF's real reaction: 1) He spewed whatever he was drinking all over his computer monitor. OR 2) He laughed so hard he almost asphyxiated. Ha. Just kidding. But seriously, that comment is slightly ridiculous, and I'm a Gordon fan. 765. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad K. became only the seventh driver in the Modern era to win the most races and the Championship and also win at least one Crown Jewel race in a season. Jeff Gordon holds the record with four total in 95,97-98 and 2001,including back-back Triple Crowns in 97-98. Dale Earnhardt has a pair of these in 1987 and 1990. Jimmie Johnson has one in 2009. 766. 13 posted: 11.25.2012 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #759 Brad was something like 100 hundred points back following July Daytona 767. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad won a crown jewel this year? 768. murb posted: 11.25.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Brad won a crown jewel this year?" They're counting the Aaron's 499. I guess you can say that it is still a Crown Jewel (since it was the Winston 500 for so many years and was one of the original "Crown Jewels"), but it's really hard to take it as a Crown Jewel when it has such a goofy name. But then again, the Crown Royal Presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at the Brickyard Presented by Crown Royal is still considered a Crown Jewel. So I guess a lot of people still count that Talladega race as one. 769. Paul posted: 11.25.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Brad won the spring Talladega race, which is one of NASCAR's crown jewel races. 770. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OH MY GOD!!! OH MY GOD!!! OH MY GOD!!! Watching the Saints/Niners game, San Fran's new QB ran for a touchdown. His touchdown run was sprung by a block on the outside thrown by (wait for it..... wait for it.....) RANDY MOSS!!! In his 15+ year career, that is the first block he has ever thrown. I am in disbelief. I;ll argue the Spring Dega thing later when my mind is back together. Watching Randy Moss throw a block just blew it. 771. 18fan posted: 11.25.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did any of you guys catch the F1 race today? It was amazing, better than most Cup races from this year. 772. BON GORDON posted: 11.25.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are my 2013 NASCAR Prdeictions: Daytona 500 winner: Kyle Busch: Kyle will have a comeback year and start it off by winning the Great American race. Will dominate and lead the most laps. Coke 600 winner: Brad Keselowski: Kasey Kahne, Carl Edwards, Jimmie Johnson, and Kyle Busch will all be in contention but in the end Bad Brad will win it. Southern 500: Jeff Gordon: Gordon will run Top seven or so all night and come on strong in the end and win it. Brickyard 400: Jeff Gordon: Indy is one of Jeff Gordon's best race tracks. Hasn't had things go 100% his way the last few years, but finally has all the pieces of the puzzle pit together. 2013 is a comback year for Jeff Gordon as he will win 2 of NASCAR's 4 crown jewel races. MOST WINS: Kyle Busch (6) ROOKIE OF THE YEAR: Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. 2013 NASCAR SPRINT CUP POINTS: Champion: Carl Edwards: 4 Wins, 16 top Fives, 25 Top Tens 2nd: Jeff Gordon: 3 Wins, 14 Top fives, 22 Top Tens 3rd: Kyle Busch: 6 Wins, 15 Top Fives, 21 Top Tens 4th: Jimmie Johnson: 4 Wins, 14 Top Fives, 23 Top Tens 5th: Denny Hamlin: 2 Wins, 12 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 6th: Brad Keselowski: 4 Wins, 13 Top Fives, 18 Top Tens 7th: Tony Stewart: 1 Win, 10 Top Fives, 17 Top Tens 8th: Matt Kenseth: 2 Wins, 11 Top Fives, 19 Top Tens 9th: Kasey Kahne: 1 Win, 11 Top Fives, 16 Top Tens 10th: Greg Biffle: 1 Win, 10 Top Fives, 15 Top Tens 11th: Clint Bowyer: 1 Win, 9 Top Fives, 15 Top Tens 12th: Ryan Newman: 1 Win, 8 Top Fives, 14 Top Tens Cousin Carl Edwards is back with a vengence. This will finally be his year and will win by 16 points over Jeff Gordon. 773. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to call winning the most races and the title and a Crown Jewel in a season a "Supreme Prize". Jeff Gordon's Supreme Prize's look like this: 1995-7 wins,Southern 500 and a title by 34 points(as DSFF famously reminds me and any other Gordon fan) 1997-10 wins,Daytona 500,World 600,Southern 500 and a title by 14 points. 1998-13 wins,World 600,Brickyard 400,Southern 500 and a title by 364 points. 2001-6 wins,Brickyard 400 and a title by 349 points. 774. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Earnhardt's Supreme Prize's: 1987-11 wins,Southern 500 and a title by 489 points. 1990-9 wins,Spring Talladega 500,Southern 500 and a title by 23 points. 775. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did any of you guys catch the F1 race today? It was amazing, better than most Cup races from this year." Definitely among the 5 best F1 races this year Top 5 F1 races of 2012: 1. Austin 2. Valencia 3. Interlagos 4. Malaysia 5. Monza 776. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.25.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, now that the whole "OMG BRAD WON! F*$K YEAH!" thing has worn off of me, I gotta say despite that whole Brad thing, this season as a whole sucked hard. I can barely remember a good majority of the races. Hopefully the new car will spice things up next year. 777. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was Jeff Gordon's 5th career "Bookend" victory. With 3 Daytona 500's and 2 wins in the last race of the year, Gordon is tied for 2nd all-time in Bookend wins. 1. Bobby Allison 10 2. Jeff Gordon 5 2. Bill Elliott 5 2. Richard Petty 5 2. Cale Yarborough 5 Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson each have 1 and Big E. has 4. 778. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Personally, I feel the Dega Spring race has lost its distinction as a major. And this is a Brad K fan talking, he has won it twice. It was a major in the past for two reasons. First off, it was the fastest race of the year since the 2nd Dega race was always the last weekend in July when the brutally hot temperatures brought the speeds down. Secondly, it was sponsored by the series sponsor, hence the Winston 500. To me, this changed in '98 when they moved the 2nd Dega race to the Fall making the speeds equal and moved the Winston title to that Fall race. In my opinion, that moved the major to the Fall race as it was sponsored by Winston and had the big money bonus. In 2001, Dega lost its major IMO. And again, it would help Brad if it were still a major. But it is treated like just another race nowadays. To me, the Bristol Night Race has taken its place as the 5th major due to the fan interest in it. It almost lost its place with the reconfiguration, but this year they accidentally gave it its bite back. 779. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In my opinion, that moved the major to the Fall race as it was sponsored by Winston and had the big money bonus. In 2001, Dega lost its major IMO." What make's it still a Major IMO, is it is still The fastest 500 mile race ever run in 1997 and Bill Elliott's fastest Qualifying speed in 1987 was also in this event. 780. Paul posted: 11.25.2012 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still think of one of the Talladega races should be considered a major considering its past history as a major, its high speeds, the fact that its dates are always circled on race fans' calendars, and how tough it is to win a race at Talladega. To be honest, I had always thought the fall race was bigger because it was so close to the championship that walking out of Talladega with a great finish was very important to one's championship hopes, especially since Talladega may be the biggest wildcard track on the schedule. But since the spring race was a part of the Winston Million and was looked at as one of the five biggest races of the year, with the Brickyard 400 being excluded from the "Best 3 out of 4" Crown Jewel list of races that made up the Winston Million, I'll always look at Talladega as being a major on the NASCAR schedule, whether its the spring race or fall race that is regarded as such. Since the fall race occurs in the Chase, I would consider that race as a major now, except for the fact that a lot of teams treat that race as a "Let's just survive and get out of here" event and often times play not to lose, rather than to win because of the championship implications due to the Chase and current points system. Because of that, I think that despite not being sponsored by the series sponsor any more, the spring Talladega race is still a major because of the reasons I listed in the first paragraph, as well as the fact that more championship caliber teams go for the win because it's not as important in the big picture as the Chase Talladega race due to the points reset. 781. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.25.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Coming soon to a blog post: my account of the time I spent with Marvin Panch. 782. JG24FanForever posted: 11.25.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With nothing else to do I want reiterate my all-time favorite racing drivers list. Top 12 Favorite racing Drivers 1. Jeff Gordon 2. John Force 3. Curtis Turner 4. Fernando Alonso 5. David Pearson 6. Tazio Nuvolari 7. Dale Earnhardt 8. Don Garlits 9. Jim Clark 10. Richard Petty 11. Jackie Stewart 12. Tony Schumacher Honorable mention: Bobby Allison and Tim Flock 783. Paul posted: 11.25.2012 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was bored, so I created a wiki page for former Busch Series/USAR Pro Cup driver Michael Ritch. Check it out. I know a lot of people are making projections and are excited for the 2013 Sprint Cup Series season, but I'm anxious to see how the Nationwide Series turns out next season. Aside from Brad, Joey, and Kyle, I don't think any Cup drivers are going to be factors next season. The field right now is pretty stacked with ex-Cup drivers (Sadler, Hornish, Regan, Vickers), talented drivers working their way up (Austin, Trevor, Parker, Annett, Allgaier), and a foray of talented veterans who will be battling for a top 15 points finish (Bliss, Nemechek, Clements, Wallace brothers, Jeff Green if he doesn't park). Plus, there are some talented drivers running part-time schedules I'm interested in seeing (Blaney, Johanna, Ty Dillon, Jeb Burton, Bubba Wallace) and rumored full-time drivers (Buescher, Scott, Piquet, Pastrana, Gaughan) who could add another twist to the championship picture. Next year's field looks pretty stacked, and although there are several ex-Cup drivers who will be battling for the championship, there are about nine drivers who will be championship contenders, with up to five more being added to the mix provided they get full-time rides (Buescher, Scott, and Pastrana are the most likely). I'm not saying that all of them are serious title contenders, but at they are all fringe title contenders at the very least. It's tough to predict the champion for next year because there are the uncertainties involving the quality of Trevor and Regan's teams next year. I hope their teams are strong next year because then we would have a serious 5-driver battle for the championship, along with Austin, Sadler, and Vickers. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty stoked about next year's Nationwide season (and Truck season as well) as I think the season will be dominated by Nationwide regulars, especially with Joey moving over to the slower Penske team and Kyle probably not getting the best equipment as he'll have two title contenders for teammates. 784. Eric posted: 11.26.2012 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that the Nationwide battle is going to be something next year. It has nice group of veterans and upcoming drivers in that series. From a talent standpoint for regulars, it is the best in while despite the amount of start and parks. 785. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 2:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's my top 12 favorite Gordon wins: 1. 2002 Southern 500 2. 1999 Daytona 500 3. 2011 Labor Day Atlanta 500 4. 2011 Early Phoenix 5. 2012 Homestead 6. 2006 Sonoma 7. 2005 Daytona 500 8. 1995 Southern 500 9. 2007 Fall Talladega 500 10.2002 Bristol night 11.2005 Spring Martinsville 12.1994 Brickyard 400 786. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 season Quality passes leaders: 1. Bad Brad 2201(Driver of the Year) 2. Kyle Busch 1993 3. Jeff Gordon 1986 4. Matt Kenseth 1923 5. Greg Biffle 1912 6. Dale Jr. 1879 7. Kasey Kahne 1840 8. Marcos Ambrose 1818 9. Martin Truex Jr. 1671 10.Clint Bowyer 1618 11.Jimmie Johnson 1572 12.Aric Almirola 1559(potential star) Bad Brad led the league in Average finish to go with everything else. 787. Talon64 posted: 11.26.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's 3 top 5's in the Chase are the fewest by a Chase champion. The previous low was 5, Stewart in 2005 and Johnson in 2006. Although it's worth nothing that Kurt won the 2004 championship with a record-tying 9 top 10's but just two finishes better than 5th (Loudon win and a 4th at Charlotte). But Keselowski's 6.3 average finish is tied for the 8th best in Chase history among all drivers, and ranks 5th out of the 9 championship seasons. 788. murb posted: 11.26.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of NNS, it is looking more and more likely that Truck champ James Buescher will be moving up full time to one of the Turner NNS rides. If it does happen, then perhaps you can also throw him into the championship battle. Also, Todd Bodine is gonna be out of a ride yet again. Red Horse will be parking the 11 truck due to sponsorship, and they will be just a two truck team with Timothy Peters and John Wes Townley next year. Todd never really performed well there (other than the fluke rain win at Dover), so it isn't surprising to see his relationship with that team fall by the wayside due to sponsorship. However, I do expect Todd to end up in some type of ride in the Truck Series next year, even if it isn't full time. For example, I can see him splitting the schedule with Kyle Busch and Parker Kligerman/Ross Kenseth in one of the KBM trucks next year. But yeah, silly season is in full swing. There's more and more news every day it seems like. 789. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's another great stat I overlooked from this event: Jeff Gordon tied Dale Earnhardt for first all-time in wins from a starting spot of 11th or worse with his 25th overall. Dale Earnhardt had 5 wins from the pole and 25 from outside the Top 10 Jeff Gordon has 19 wins from the pole and 25 from outside the Top 10 790. Paul posted: 11.26.2012 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I caught the end of NASCAR Race Hub, and Steve Byrnes said Jeffrey Earnhardt will be in studio to discuss his full-time ride in 2013. I've heard from Jeffrey's site and his Homestead interview that he was working on his 2013 Nationwide schedule, and he only had sponsorship for about one-third to one-half of the schedule at the time. If this turns out to be the case, then Jeffrey will be competing against Hal Martin for 2013 Nationwide Rookie of the Year. My guess is that he will be driving for either Rick Ware or Go Green since he split time with both teams last year, but considering JRM's current sponsorship situation, I wonder if he struck a deal with his uncle to drive for his team. Probably not, but I'm happy for Jeffrey that he has found sponsorship to run the full schedule next year, and give us a ROTY battle in the process. 791. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF's real reaction: 1) He spewed whatever he was drinking all over his computer monitor. OR 2) He laughed so hard he almost asphyxiated." Lol no. I knew that was either somebody trolling to get a reaction or somebody who simply doesn't understand NASCAR. I just laughed looking at it. It is the equivalent of "Manning > Montana". Kinda hilarious. 792. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now we need to get this Winston 500 crown jewel thing straightened out. The question I have is this: Which was the crown jewel from '98-'00? In those years the Spring race was the DieHard 500 in late April and the Fall race was the Winston 500 in October with the big money bonus attached to it. So was the DieHard 500 still the crown jewel? Or did it transfer to the Fall race since the Series sponsor and money bonus transferred too? Or had any Dega race simply worn out its "major race" distinction by that point with the elimination of the Winston Million, other "major events" popping up (the Brickyard 400 and the wildly popular Bristol Night Race)? And what about 2001 to present? Did the major race go back to the Spring? Does anyone else's head hurt as much as mine does trying to figure this out? Let's use Dale as the case study: He won the late April/early May version 3 times ('90, '94, '99). The first two were Winston 500s and part of the Winston Million program, but the third one was the DieHard 500. He also won twice in the newly scheduled and branded second race in October, the new Winston 500 ('99, '00). So he has 4 Winston 500 wins ('90, '94, '99, '00). And of course he also won 5 times ('83, '84, '90, '91, '93) in the brutally oppressive late July race which is probably the greatest test of driver, having to stay that focused while that hot. And btw, those Summer races had the major network flag to flag broadcast on CBS, unlike the Winston 500 which was on ESPN. This was a big deal back then. Damn my head hurts. Let's just simplify this, let's figure out which driver gets the "major win" in their column. Obviously Gordon won the Daytona 500, Jeff Burton won the World 600 and the 50th Southern 500, and DJ won his 2nd Brickyard 400. Those are indisputable. But who gets the other checkmark? Is it the winner of the 1999 DieHard 500 in the Spring or the winner of the Winston 500 in the Fall? Or do we scrap both of those and give the 5th checkmark to the winner of the insanely popular Bristol Night Race? So pick a driver from that season, of those 3 races, which winner gets the "major" checkmark? Which driver is it? 793. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is it the winner of the 1999 DieHard 500 in the Spring or the winner of the Winston 500 in the Fall? Or do we scrap both of those and give the 5th checkmark to the winner of the insanely popular Bristol Night Race?" Are you being a wise guy? cause Big E was the winner of all three that year. So he technically was a "Triple Crown" winner. I like the Spring race for being the Major, because since it's inception in 1970 it has been historically the more significant of the two. The Fall race has been plagued over the years with horrible races such as 2008 and 2009 to name a pair. 794. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another stat that Gordon conquered in this event is he became the winningest driver on intermediate(1 mile or more but less than 2)tracks surpassing Richard Petty with his 36th. Gordon is the winningest driver on these different Track types: 2.5 mile+ 22 2 mile+ 27 Intermediate 36 Plate Track 12 Road Course 9 Concrete surface 9 Flat Track 15 795. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And since we are throwing stats out there, here are my favorite Earnhardt nuggets: -ONLY driver in NASCAR history to win the championship in his 2nd full season of big time stock car racing -Only driver in NASCAR history to lead the league in laps led 5 years in a row -Only driver to win 6 championships over a 9 year stretch (JJ needs to win 2013 just to MATCH this) -Longest championship drought in a 22 year career: 6 seasons (with 2 runner ups) -2 winless seasons in 22 seasons (Top 10 in points both times) -20 of 22 seasons in Top 10 in points (worst: two 12th place seasons) -By far the highest Value Over Replacement in NASCAR history. This hasn't been figured up yet, and I don't even think the formula has been figured up yet, but just by my comparitive calculations of his impact on both Osterlund Racing and RCR, nobody else is even close, once they finally get a career VOR, his numbers will blow you away -Most wins in a 500 mile Darlington race (that went the scheduled 500 miles): 7 -Only 1 of 76 victories were in races shortened for any reason And oh yeah: -7 championships (tied most ever) 796. murb posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, now that you bring that up DSFF, I think it is appropriate to call the Bristol Night Race a major. As I look at the current schedule, six races stick out to me as majors. 1. Daytona 500 (Obviously.) 2. Mother's Day 500 at Darlington (I know it is technically the Southern 500, but I count it differently from the old Southern 500 that ended in 2004. Still, very prestigious.) 3. Coca Cola 600 (Obviously.) 4. Crown Royal Presents the Curtiss Shaver 400 at the Brickyard Presented by Crown Royal Powered by Big Machine Records and Fueled by Golden Corral (Obviously.) 5. Bristol Night Race (As DSFF noted, its popularity and prestige have unquestionably been raised over the past 20 or so years.) 6. Labor Day 500 at Atlanta (In the past on here, I've vouched for this one as a major. It fits the mold of a major crown jewel race perfectly. It's a very popular track, it's a hard track to drive, it's run as a grueling 500 miler, and as Jeff and Jimmie proved in 2011, it is a race that the drivers want to win BADLY. The only change that needs to be done to it is that it needs to become a day race.) So yeah, these are the six races that I count as the "Crown Jewel" events. I think six is a perfect amount of them to have, and if I were running Nascar, I would make some type of Winston Million-esque challenge that would involve winning multiple majors in a year. It would really bring some spice back to some of these races, and it would probably produce better racing. 797. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon stats: -ONLY driver to win the most races 5 straight years -ONLY driver to win the most races 6 times in a 7 year period -ONLY driver to win 6 straight Road-Race wins, in all 6 he led the most -ONLY drive to win back-back Plate races 4 times -ONLY driver to win 4 straight Southern 500's -ONLY driver in the Modern era to have at least 7 Top 5's 20 straight season's Holds the Modern record for Wins(87),Poles(72),Races Led Most(90),Top 2's(152),Podiums(207),Top 5's(298) consecutive Top 11 points finishes with 19 straight. -ONLY driver to have a Triple Crown "Supreme Prize" which he did back-back seasons in 1997-98 798. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree murb. Those are the races in current day NASCAR to win. 799. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I agree murb. Those are the races in current day NASCAR to win." What about Homestead? It seems to be a good enough track, and it being the last race of the year it holds a little more weight than an average event. 800. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem JG24Fan, is that when you are not even responsible for half the success in your own organization (after 20 years there!), those numbers kinda lose their impact. Ironic, his own creation (the 48 team) has murdered him historically. 801. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever,I bet you didn't even notice that Brad K. became the only driver to finish in front of Jimmie Johnson in the points two years in a row. 802. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem with Homestead, although I love the current track, is that the race is often overshadowed by the race within the race with the title battle. Even the epic Homestead '11 battle for the win between Smoke and Cuz, it was more about the fact it was deciding the championship. 803. murb posted: 11.26.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, basically, Homestead is the current version of what the Fall race at Atlanta was when it was the last race of the year. Great race on a great track, but overshadowed by the title battle. 804. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty amazing by Brad. But even more amazed it took 11 years for somebody to finish in front of JJ 2 years in a row. Even with the mountain of technical infractions, this has been an amazing run. Oh, one last Earnhardt stat: -0 technical infractions in 22 years. 805. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "-0 technical infractions in 22 years." That's a hell of a stat. 806. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, quit being a shithead. I think Dale would tell you that because unlike you, he respected Gordo. And you're wrong on something... Terry Labonte went TWELVE years between titles. 807. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dude, if you are going to call me a shithead, at least read my posts properly. I was saying Dale's longest amount of time in his 22 year career he went without winning the title was his final 6 seasons. And when did I say I didn't respect Jeff? But even Dale loved taking shots at Jeff and his boyish nature and short stature. From the "You talk like a little girl" to the milk at the banquet quip (to which Jeff gave right back to him at the ceremony) to his immortal words in the wake of winning the second Brickyard 400: "I am the first MAN to win this". 808. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I am the first MAN to win this". He said: "if not the first" 809. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2. Mother's Day 500 at Darlington (I know it is technically the Southern 500, but I count it differently from the old Southern 500 that ended in 2004. Still, very prestigious.)" So do I. There's a quiz on Sporcle named "Labor Day Southern 500 winners" that only runs through 2004, even though the last Labor Day weekend event was in 2003. "-Only 1 of 76 victories were in races shortened for any reason" A win is a win, no matter how it happens. Even though the driver's part in a rain-shortened win is diluted, it just goes to show that winning a race, let alone a championship, is a team effort. Jeff Gordon has 83 race wins that were not cut short for any reason (I'm not counting the 1998 season finale because it was shortened before it ended). 810. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Earnhardt conveniently left out that he was able to be beat by a boy at the Brickyard before he won there himself. That must mean he's not all he's made out to be. *laughs at own bad joke* 811. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By far the highest Value Over Replacement in NASCAR history." If you mean Production in Equal Equipment Rating, then just say so. 812. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok. Performance in Equal Equipment Rating. 813. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.26.2012 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right, I apologize for that DSFF... I'm going through a rough spell. Unfortunate for NASCAR, Dale Sr was the last MAN period in NASCAR. 814. Paul posted: 11.26.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "when you are not even responsible for half the success in your own organization (after 20 years there!), those numbers kinda lose their impact." So using your own logic, that means that Jimmie "murdering Jeff historically" loses its impact historically even more so because Jimmie's success came in even better equipment than Jeff's most success did. "Ironic, his own creation (the 48 team) has murdered him historically." In what way has he murdered Jeff historically? Because he has more championships decided by the final 10 races? Because he won 23 less races when he turned 37 in more superior equipment and no off-track distractions (Jeff 81, Jimmie 58)? Because he choked the championship against a guy in his 3rd full-time Cup season? Think of a better way of phrasing that statement. 815. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because since 2002 JJ and Gordon have been driving identical equipment (and as always, if JJ did have an advantage, Jeff has nobody to blame except himself). And Jeff only turned 31 in '02, so it isn't like he was on the downside of his prime. And head to head, even removing Jeff's injury years of '08-'10, JJ has made him look comparitively weak. One could argue Jeff only had his mind blowing success from '95-'99 cause he didn't have to compete against Jimmie. 816. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Jeff and Jimmie have very close numbers in championship fights. Jeff is 4-3 (W '95, '97, '98, '01 and L '96, '04, '07) and Jimmie is 5-3 (W '06, '07, '08, '09, '10 and L '04, '05, '12). Of course the key is Jimmie winning their one head to head battle in '07. 817. Paul posted: 11.26.2012 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But you also have to factor in other outside forces that have happened since 2002, such as Jeff's divorce, lack of guidance in his life after losing key figures in his life (wife divorced him, Ray Evernham left, had falling out with his father, and losing a good friend in Dale Earnhardt), injuries, and lack of team chemistry. It sounds silly that such a great competitor needed so many people behind him (not necessarily on the team, but more for support such as his wife and father), but for his whole life Jeff has been at his best on the track when his life was good off the track. He struggled in '93 when he and Ray were having trouble finding the balance of the car the whole season, got better in '94 as he and Ray developed better chemistry, and were on fire from '95-'99 when their chemistry was at its best. In '00, he struggled as HMS had a down year and he and Robbie Loomis struggled to develop chemistry, plus I think that was the year that he and his dad had a falling out for a few years. Then as HMS improved in '01 and he and Loomis developed better chemistry, he won the championship and like everyone else, spent the whole year in shock after Dale's death. Then in '02, he gave Jimmie all of his '01 cars and finished 4th in the points despite going through a divorce and, like everybody else who raced with Dale, came to realize that he was gone, which probably hurt his psyche. Jeff himself said that his struggles between '02 and '06 had a lot to do with his unhappiness off the track. It was in '06 that he married Ingrid Vandebosch and got back in touch with his father. This new-found happiness was evident in '07 as Jeff won 6 races, led the series in every category (except for wins), and scored the most overall points that season. Unfortunately, getting his life back on track didn't have much impact on-track as he experienced two bad back injuries in a 17-month span, at Las Vegas '08 and Watkins Glen '09. While he was still competitive and made the Chase all three years, his performance dropped in what turned out to be the best three seasons of Jimmie's career (undoubtedly #1 in '09, out-drove his equipment in '08 and '10), which I believe skews their comparisons to a great extent. Then the last two years Jeff has been healthy and happy off the track, but has lacked consistency in '11 and '12 because due to bad luck and factors out of his control (slow cars, flat tires, getting caught up in wrecks, the Richmond screwjob of 2011, run-ins with the #15 car, etc.). So really, Jeff has only been at full strength in one season since going head-to-head with Jimmie, and that was 2007 when he had one of the greatest non-championship seasons of all-time. Had Chad decided not to end the information sharing after Talladega that fall, we may be looking at Jeff with 5 titles and Jimmie with 4 (and if there wasn't a Chase, we would be looking at it that way). That's my rebuttal. 818. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Because since 2002 JJ and Gordon have been driving identical equipment (and as always, if JJ did have an advantage, Jeff has nobody to blame except himself). And Jeff only turned 31 in '02, so it isn't like he was on the downside of his prime." But you have stated before that they both have similar career arcs. And if anyone bothered to read my three-mile-long post on last week's page (#765) comparing the careers of Gordon and Johnson as season-by-season progressions, that would have been proven. 819. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately, getting his life back on track didn't have much impact on-track as he experienced two bad back injuries in a 17-month span, at Las Vegas '08 and Watkins Glen '09." Don't forget his qualifying crash at Dover in '09. While not nearly as vicious as the others, Jeff himself admitted afterwards that it affected his back. And then he proceeded to lose the points lead that weekend. Speaking of 2009, I think it is at least fairly impressive that Jeff finished THIRD in points with a bad back that year. 820. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Come on Panthers! 821. cjs3872 posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, if not for the adaptation of the Chase, Jeff would probably have six titles, not five, because you're forgetting about 2004, when he would also have won the title. And let's not forget that Jeff won a far greater percentage of races in his best year than Johnson did, and that was against a superior group of drivers. If you look at 2004-'10, which were Johnson's best years, and compare them to 1995-'01, Gordon's best years, it's no contest. Gordon blows him right out of the water in every way imaginable, except for championships, and Gordon's championships were earned the hard way, over a full season of 31-36 races every kind of track, while Johnson's championships were taken by only doing well in the last ten, with emphasis on only a certain number of tracks, mostly intetrmediates. And DSFF, a better statistical comparison to compare the numbers of Gordon and Johnson, and I used to judge the career statistics of Earnhardt against both Gordon and Rusty Wallace this way, was to compare the first "X"-number of years of their careers, regardless of what years they were, and then measure them out. So instead of measuring Johnson's numbers and Gordon's numbers as teammates, a better statistical comparison would be to measure Johnson's numbers from 2002-'12 and Gordon's from 1993-'03. Do that, and they actually end up quite similar. They're three wins apart (Gordon +3, 63-60) and one championship apart (Johnson +1, 5-4). Where Gordon gets the edge is from a versatility standpoint, since he won multiple races on all kinds of tracks even then, while Johnson's dominance is on a smaller scale of tracks. However, in doing this, it must also be understood that the first six seasons of Gordon's career were shorter, from as few as two to as many as six races shorter, making his win total even more staggering. And agian, taking nothing away from what Johnson has done, but the drivers running up front when Gordon was dominating would run circles around most of those running up front today. After all, Gordon had the likes of Earnhardt, Rusty, Bill Elliott (I know he wasn't with an elite team any more), an in his prime Mark Martin (seriously, do you think that he would have let what happened to him at Pocono this year happen to him back then?), Dale Jarrett, and even Darrell Waltrip could surprise by running up front occasionally. Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, and the Labonte brothers were front runners back then. Today, you have mentally and emotionally weak drivers like Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Kevin Harvick, Greg Biffle, Kyle Busch, etc. No wonder Johnson won five consecutive championship running against drivers like that. I'm not sure he'd have half the success running against the drivers that Gordon beat, because you couldn't beat those guys mentally the way the #48 beat the drivers and team they've beaten for most of his championships. And what happens when Johnson and the #48 team run up against someone as mentally strong as they are, if not stronger? They get beat, or even beat themselves. It happened in 2005 with Tony Stewart, and it happened this year with Brad Keselowski. How Johnson and the #48 team lost the championship proves that thney couldn't cut it against the same drivers and teams that Gordon beat in his prime, and certainly couldn't cut it against the drivers and teams Earnhardt beat in his prime. Put the #48 team against a driver and team beyond intimidation, and they usually shrink. 822. Paul posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While Jeff may have been 31 in 2003, which would have historically been the prime of his career, he was also in his 11th season in Cup, had been racing non-stop for over 25 years, and was struggling in his personal life having lost his wife, two mentors, and a fellow competitor and friend. And yet, he won 3 races, had an average finish of 12.9, and finished 4th in the points. It doesn't sound like much for a guy who had won the title four times the past eight years, but given his circumstances, I'd say that's pretty impressive. 823. David posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to my last sentence, he also led the league in top tens and average finish, tied for the most top fives, and scored the second-most points over 36 races. By the way, he finished 35 of 36 races that year. Drivers with no DNFs? David Reutimann, Casey Mears, and *cough* Juan Pablo Montoya, a.k.a. "The Archduke of Accidents". 824. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can't compare Jeff's '93-'03 to Jimmie's '02-'12 because Jimmie has had Jeff to deal with for his whole career while Jeff didn't have to worry about Jimmie up through '01 when he had the lion's share of his successs and all his championships. Jeff had all that success only cause Jimmie hadn't shown up yet. And Richard Childress was Richard Childress. And as for the final 10 deal, again, you can't devalue anything. Everyone knew how the title would be determined. Even if the system is dumber than shit (and it is), you can't discredit it. Besides, if they did do a season long deal in '04 and that was relevant (it isn't), it would have been JJ's. 825. JG24FanForever posted: 11.26.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 10 big winners from a Qualifying position of 11th or worse: 1. Jeff Gordon 25 1. Dale Earnhardt 25 3. Tony Stewart 19 4. Matt Kenseth 17 5. Rusty Wallace 14 6. Dale Jarrett 12 7. Kyle Busch 11 7. Jimmie Johnson 11 9. Richard Petty 10(out of 200) 9. Mark Martin 10 9. Darrell Waltrip 10 826. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can't compare Jeff's '93-'03 to Jimmie's '02-'12 because Jimmie has had Jeff to deal with for his whole career" Yes you can. It makes more sense to compare two different drivers based on their first 11 seasons than it does to compare them based on one driver's stats from his 10th through 20th seasons to the other's 1st through 11th seasons. Going off your prior quarterback comparison, you wouldn't compare Joe Montana from '89-'94 to Peyton Manning from '98-'08 because it's apples and oranges. Comparing two great players/drivers, with one in the downside of their career and the other in the upside in their career, isn't as comparable as comparing two great players/drivers by strictly looking at the upsides of their career. And if you look at Montana and Peyton in their respective career upsides, Montana has Peyton beat. But if you look at Montana's final years to Peyton's early years, Peyton beats Montana for obvious reasons (age, injuries, strength of team). And I feel that you can't compare Jeff's '02-'12 years to Jimmie's '02-'12 years because of those factors. "Jeff had all that success only cause Jimmie hadn't shown up yet" Jeff had all of his success before his career started to get hampered by injuries, personal issues, lack of team chemistry, and Father Time intervening. And it's not like Jimmie is the only driver who has beaten Jeff during this time, as drivers like Carl, Denny, Harvick, and Tony (who finished 2nd to Jeff in '01) have beaten Jeff as well in recent years. Does that mean that they're better than Jeff as well? Of course not. So that argument doesn't hold well because it's not like Jimmie is the only driver beating Jeff at this point. With factors like age, injuries, personal issues, and lack of team chemistry weighing Jeff down since '02, I'd be disappointed if Jimmie didn't have more success than Jeff in similar equipment. It should also be noted that Jimmie entered Cup a year after Dale's death, and thus was unaffected by that huge loss and experienced success right of the bat while most of his competition was grieving. "And as for the final 10 deal, again, you can't devalue anything." Yes you can. Of the nine Chase champions, only four scored the most overall points and were thus deserving champions. I agree that he deserves credit for taking advantage of the system in place, but considering how much easier it is to win a championship when only the final 10 races matter for the championship, it does lessen the magnitude of his five championships in comparison to the likes of Petty, Dale, Jeff, Pearson, and Cale who won multiple championships when every race counted towards the championship. Since only the final 10 races count towards the championship, all a driver needs is a strong team behind him and luck on his side. Judging by the high number of "equipment tracks" in the Chase, I'd say that Jimmie's success is more due to the strength of his team rather than himself. It's not his fault that the Chase is setup the way that it is, but as you would say, his success in the Chase should be taken with a grain of salt. 827. cjs3872 posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's absurd, DSFF. Of course Gordon didn't have Johnson to deal with in his first 11 years, but he still had Earnhardt, Rusty, Elliott, Martin, Jarrett, the Labonte brothers, and others to deal with. That would be like saying you couldn't compare Earnhardt's first 8-12 years with Rusty's because Rusty didn't have Petty, Allison, Yarborough, and an in his prime Waltrip to deal with, as Earnhardt did when he came up. To me, that's the best way to judge careers, because while the faces of the competition are not always the same, it's a more accurate way to judge career arcs. And I'll say this, as well. Earnhardt was not that great when Allison, Petty, and Yarborough were consistently running up front, except for 1980. Richard Petty himself brought this up a little more than a decade ago, not long after Earnhardt's death. When Earnhardt rose to superstardom in the sport in the mid-to-late 80s, those guys were already on their way out. On the other hand, when Gordon rose to stardom in the mid 90s, the guys of the previous generation (i.e. Earnhardt, Elliott, Rusty, etc.) were anything but on their way out. The only exception to that was Waltrip, and that was due to injuries more than anything else. In fact, in Gordon's first two championship battles, he dueled Earnhardt in '95 and Terry Labonte in '96, both of whom had debuted on a full-time basis in 1979. And when Gordon first won the Daytona 500 in 1997, he had to duel with not only Earnhardt (before the crash on lap 189) and Labonte, but Elliott as well, and even Sterling Marlin factored in briefly. All four of those drivers drove in the 1980 race, with three of then finishing in the top eight, and the other one finished eighth in the 1978 race. And in the inaugural Brickayrd 400 in 1994, which Gordon won, the third through sixth place finishers were Elliott, Rusty, Earnhardt, and Darrell Waltrip, who ran as high as third for a good while. 828. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In regards to The Montana/Manning comparison of Jeff and Dale: since Gordon has three Super Bowls to Dale's one, wouldn't that make Jeff the Joe Montana to Dale's Peyton? The Championship isn't the Super Bowl, that's what the Daytona 500 has always been called and I couldn't help noticing this misinterpretation. And if you want to get into the whole "Dale is 7-1 in Championships" which he's really 7-2, since he did have a mathematical shot in the last race of 1995. And that by definition, is a genuine loss to Gordon. 829. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can make an argument that Dale is 7-3 in championships because he was ahead of Rusty for 2nd place with six races to go in '88, and Rusty went on to lose the title to Bill Elliott by (ironically) 24 points. 830. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an ABC way of "determining" the "Greatest ever" Whoever has the most Championships+Daytona 500+Southern 500 is the greatest. 1. Richard Petty 15(only 8 in the Modern era) 2. Jeff Gordon 13 3. Cale Yarborough 12 4. Dale Earnhardt 11 5. Bobby Allison 8 5. Jimmie Johnson 8 831. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You can make an argument that Dale is 7-3 in championships because he was ahead of Rusty for 2nd place with six races to go in '88, and Rusty went on to lose the title to Bill Elliott by (ironically) 24 points." I did not know this. 832. Baker posted: 11.27.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just thought I'd throw this out there :: The Gordon vs. Earnhardt debat is soooooooo tired. A driver almost everyone can identify with has won the championship for the first time in God knows how long and all we can talk about is Gordon/Earnhardt? 833. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker, that's last week's news. Now it's back to business with our usual debates. For the record, I think we're focusing more one Gordon vs. Johnson, not Earnhardt in this discussion. I can only speak for myself when I say that I believe Earnhardt was better than Gordon, as I have Earnhardt ranked 2nd on my all-time greatest driver list after The King. I have Jeff in the 3rd-7th place range (it's a fairly loose list) along with Allison, Pearson, Cale, and Darrell. 834. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker,how about a Kyle Busch vs. Brad K. debate? Bad Brad has 9 wins to K.B's 24, but has a Championship. Is B.K historically better? 835. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think it would be too frustrating to have a debate about Kyle Busch. Too much untapped potential in that man. How about a Kyle vs. Stewart debate? Now THAT would be frustrating. 836. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^hahaha 837. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's another debate I just thought of since both of them have been in the news as of late: Jeremy Mayfield vs. Shane Hmiel. I'll start it off. Mayfield has 5 Cup wins (including memorable wins over Earnhardt at Pocono '00 and racing his way into the Chase at Richmond '04), made the first two Chases (something that Jeff Gordon can't say), and finished in the top ten in points three times. Hmiel on the other hand has 1 Truck win, zero top ten points finishes in any series, and his most memorable on-track incident involved flipping off the classy Dale Jarrett at Bristol '05. Winner: Mayfield. Now that's a quick debate. 838. JG24FanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jarrett = Most underrated Cup driver on Racing Reference. 839. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, when you are 302 points out of the lead with just 4 races left that is not a legitimate title duel. The fact that Dale had a mathematical shot entering the last race and ended up only 34 behind speaks more to Jeff's horrific late season collapse. And in '88 Dale was well out of it towards the end. As for determining a driver's historical value, you need to find some way to correlate the % of a driver's starts with a team, then determining the % of championships, wins, and laps led they are responsible for. As for the chase, we can only devalue those titles if we are willing to scrap The King's 1974 Winston Cup completely from the record. Are we gonna do that? Of course not, every title counts the same except for Buck Baker's '56 title which is completely soaked in blood. 840. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 2:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think it's fair to compare points systems before 1975 to those used since 1975 because, quite frankly, I don't think they knew what they were doing. I think they were trying to put more emphasis on the biggest races by basing the points system off of race winnings, but in doing so they made most of the rest of the season meaningless, something that the Chase also does. However, I consider the Chase a worse way to determine a season than pre-'75 points systems because they scrapped a perfectly adequate points system in favor of making the first 26 races a lengthy test session for the final 10 races. At least they could use the "We didn't know what the hell we were doing" excuse for the '74 points system. They can't make that now, especially since the elementary points structure started being used in 2011, because they had a system that worked and they scrapped it in the name of entertainment and trying to rival the NFL playoffs. Also, Richard Petty gets a pass for 1974 in spite of the points system because a.) he probably would have won the championship anyways (or at least a close 2nd to Cale) because of his great stats, and b.) he had already proven that he could win the championship four previous times, including three times ('67, '71, '72) when he didn't win the race with the biggest purse (in '71, Ontario had a larger purse than the Daytona 500). Plus, Petty went on to win two more championships under the Latford system, including the year NASCAR changed the points system in '75. Petty gets the benefit of the doubt for his pre-'75 championships the same way that Gordon and Stewart got the benefit of the doubt for their rain-shortened wins at Pocono and Fontana, respectively, this year. Since all three are proven winners and champions, they get the benefit of the doubt more so than unproven drivers. Johnson on the other hand doesn't get that same benefit of the doubt because he won five championships under the Chase, and only twice did he score the most overall points. He most likely would have won the title in '04, even though his lead at one point over Jeff was only about half of what Jeff had over him entering the Chase in '07, so just to be fair I'll give Jimmie that championship. I'm not saying that Jimmie is an unproven driver, but I think the fact that he has only scored the most overall points in a season twice (three times if you ignore his three straight engine failures late in the '04 regular season) raises a lot of doubt about the quality of his five championships. A championship should be determined based on a driver's performance over an entire season, and although it's not Jimmie's fault that he only experienced such a season twice in his career, I believe the Chase has only diminished his legacy as a driver and as a champion, which is a shame because I do think that he could have been looked at as one of the greatest of all-time without an asterisk were it not for the Chase. 841. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 2:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and ended up only 34 behind speaks more to Jeff's horrific late season collapse." So having a failed engine at Charlotte and having his crew chief and owner take part in a joke pit stop at Atlanta makes the end of his season a collapse? "And in '88 Dale was well out of it towards the end." And of course, this isn't regarded as a collapse. Even though Dale was ahead of Rusty with six races to go, and while Rusty gained 115 points on Bill Elliott, Dale lost 105 points over the final six races. Maybe if Ironhead had put as much effort into catching up to Bill as he did spinning out Bodine, he could have made up ground in those final six races, rather than losing almost as much as Rusty gained 842. Benjamin Lowe posted: 11.27.2012 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS the 77 Cowboys were a good team but the cowboys of the early to mid 90's would had blown away anything that the 77 cowboys have done had Jerry Jones not been a complete egomaniac and fired Jimmy Johnson after the Cowboys victory in Superbowl 28. 843. David posted: 11.27.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And DSFF, a better statistical comparison to compare the numbers of Gordon and Johnson, and I used to judge the career statistics of Earnhardt against both Gordon and Rusty Wallace this way, was to compare the first "X"-number of years of their careers, regardless of what years they were, and then measure them out. So instead of measuring Johnson's numbers and Gordon's numbers as teammates, a better statistical comparison would be to measure Johnson's numbers from 2002-'12 and Gordon's from 1993-'03. Do that, and they actually end up quite similar. They're three wins apart (Gordon +3, 63-60) and one championship apart (Johnson +1, 5-4). Where Gordon gets the edge is from a versatility standpoint, since he won multiple races on all kinds of tracks even then, while Johnson's dominance is on a smaller scale of tracks." Did I not state this in post #818? ""Because since 2002 JJ and Gordon have been driving identical equipment (and as always, if JJ did have an advantage, Jeff has nobody to blame except himself). And Jeff only turned 31 in '02, so it isn't like he was on the downside of his prime.' But you have stated before that they both have similar career arcs. And if anyone bothered to read my three-mile-long post on last week's page (#765) comparing the careers of Gordon and Johnson as season-by-season progressions, that would have been proven." 844. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In '88 and '95, Dale wasn't under the stress of looking a Cup title right in the eye. Even when all alone, the pressure of that can get pretty overwhelming as Kenseth has admitted numerous times in regards to his '03 crown. And I wanna set 1988 straight right here. Yeah Rusty handed it to Dale over the last few races, he won 4 of the last 5. Rusty actually had the points lead after winning the 2nd Michigan race with Dale 3rd in points, 157 out with 10 races left. Then Rusty had his awful flipping Bristol practice wreck, had to get relief in that race from *cringe* Larry Pearson. Dale and Bill finished 1-2 in that race and Bill took the lead for good. Two races later Dale took over second in points at Richmond when Rusty had his car destroyed UNDER CAUTION by (wait for it..... wait for it.....) Geoff Bodine who didn't slow down. Dale was 117 out after that race with seven races left. Rusty reclaimed 2nd 2 races later as Dale fell to more than 200 points back. And as for '74, yes Richard was the best driver that year. But he didn't win the championship because he was the best driver for the season, he won it because he won the Daytona 500 and showed up for the rest of the races. Just like this year. Brad was the best season long driver, but that doesn't mean shit. He won the title cause he did the best over the final 10. As for the "they didn't know what they were doing" argument, NASCAR's current CEO is Brian Freaking France. He has no clue whatsoever. Also, I think Brad is ahead of Kyle historically. This could change in the future if Kyle ever gets his head on straight, but the fact is Brad has two Top 5 points finishes in 3 full seasons and a championship, while Kyle has just one in 8 full seasons with championship organizations HMS and JGR. Throw in the Tony Stewart Memorial Discount for leaving too much on the table (has there ever been a worse closer than Kyle in individual races AND seasons?) and the way he melts faster than a snowball in Hell anytime ANYTHING important is on the line, I have Brad higher. Kyle has a very low PEER rating for his career. 845. cjs3872 posted: 11.27.2012 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This time, I agree wth you DSFF, because Brad has to be rated ahead of Kyle Busch, or any of Kyle's contemporaries, not just because of his championship, but because of his overall record in his first three years, four if you include his part-time season in 2009, which included a victory. At this point in his career, after three full-time seasons and part of a fourth, Brad has nine wins and a championship. For instance, Kyle only had four wins at the same point in his Cup career. If you compare Brad's career at this point, and compare it to the other drivers that are contemporaries of Brad, it's no contest, and not just because of the championship Brad now has. That's the argument I keep making about how to compare careers from a statistical point of view. In fact, Brad's nine wins and a championship after three full-time seasons are ahead of Dale Earnhardt's pace and even with Jeff Gordon's. Earnhardt had six wins and one championship after three full-time seasons, and Gordon, like Brad, had nine wins and a championship at this point in his career. Johnson had more wins (14 total), but no championships after three years. However, Gordon blows everyone away in the career comparison with successive double-digit win seasons in years 4, 5 and 6. And David, you did mention that Johnson and Gordon had similar career arcs, but I wanted to give somewhat of a statistical view of it on this comments page. 846. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I brought up '88 because Dale was within a full race of Bill Elliott late in the season, and was closer to winning the title that year than he was in '95. True, Bill didn't have the bad finishes towards the end of '88 that Gordon had in '95, largely contributed by his engine woes at Charlotte, spin at Rockingham, and mock pit stop at Atlanta, but I still think that Dale was closer to winning the title in '88 than in '95, even though the end points differential was a lot closer in '95. Benjamin, Jimmy Johnson was also burnt out by the end of '93, which along with his disagreements with Jerry "I'll never relinquish my GM duties" Jones, contributed to his departure after winning his 2nd Super Bowl. Jimmy himself said that he had to be incredibly hard on his players that season because he didn't want them slacking off after the 1st Super Bowl, and in a way was embarrassed at his behavior that season. I'll criticize Jerry as much as anybody, but I think that the blame gets put way too much on Jerry for that break-up when in reality it was a mutual departure. 847. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.27.2012 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While the numbers do not lie about Jimmie Johnson's slight edge over Jeff Gordon. Jimmie can't win the influence argument, Gordon brought the polished, uptown racer image to NASCAR. Gordon won 4 championships when TV viewership and track attendance was soaring, while Jimmie's five year run was overshadowed by declining ratings, fewer filled grandstands, Cup talent stagnation, a national recession, etc. If generations of NASCAR drivers are products of their respective eras, we should endeavor to see Gordon and Jimmie as members of a boom and bust respectively. 848. Talon64 posted: 11.27.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Baker,how about a Kyle Busch vs. Brad K. debate? Bad Brad has 9 wins to K.B's 24, but has a Championship. Is B.K historically better?" Brad only in his 4th season in Cup, just his 3rd as far as full seasons, so it's pretty hard to make any historical comparisons. Even judging them based on their first 3 years in Cup (or really, first 125 starts since Brad's 2009 partial season needs to be accounted for as well) isn't clear-cut since both ended up in Cup dramatically different ways and into different positions. Kyle was the prodigy who shot up the ranks at a young age to end up in Cup as a teenager, while Brad was the guy who had to grind it out over a few years in the lower series before finally getting his chance. It's new school vs. old school, as far as how drivers get to the Cup Series. Their overall numbers are comparable if you factor in the difference of experience between a guy 25-28 years old while Kyle was 19-21 during that period. If you factor in equipment, Keselowski started out in crap at Penske but by the end of 2011 he was top dog in a two car team that would eventually have to deal with a lame duck manufacturer. Kyle was with the HMS juggernaut, but never better really any better than 3rd-tier in his 3 years there so that probably puts them on equal ground. But at the end of the day, Brad's championship is the definitive, deciding edge that overrules all else. btw, Kyle turns 28 next year. 849. Talon64 posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) oh yeah, but it's worth pointing out that Brad's shown great team leadership and clutch factor early on in his career. A championship's pretty much the best proof you could have of that (if you ignore Kurt Busch). Meanwhile, Kyle's been in Cup for 8 years now but it's the lack of those that's hindered what his pure driving talent should be getting him. But that driving talent might've taken a hit this year with his lack of wins at KBM, versus his domination in JGR's top notch Nationwide equipment that makes Joey Logano look like a superstar. 850. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finally we are discussing the re-introduction of a winston million and which races now have crown jewel status. The Bristol night race should be included due to the high regard it is held in by fans and drivers. The Talladega spring race only got major status due to winston picking the spring race to sponsor. There really is little or nothing to differentiate between the 2 races now (or ever). Talladega is a track which every driver wants to win at , which race it is now does not matter, like say Martinsville or Richmond,spring or autumn (fall) it does not matter just get a win.I am no Johnson fan, but I find it unusual that you try to detract from due to his supposed lack of consistency. If you rank him based on a 36 (long) race season over as of now 11 (substantial time period) seasons his rankings are 5,2,2,4,1,2,2,1,2,4,3. Giving him an average finish of 2.54. That is brillaint no matter what. No other driver comes close to that over the same time period. For example Gordon scored most points in 2004 and 2007 and failed to make the top5 next season. Edwards had 2 great years, followed by atrocious years. Hardly any time bar the 48 can score back 2 back top 5 points seasons over 36 race seasons. The 48 has done it 11 times and counting. Finally, the people pointing to Gordon's 95-01 period must remember that in that period the same 3 or 4 teams would monopolise the top5 at almost every race. Nascar with more stringent rule enforcement or restriction on innovation have tigthened the field for the sake of competition and close racing.Despite a longer season, its been 5 years since some one scored 20 top5s in a season and 10 wins in a season has happened once in the last 15 years. PS I think Earnhardt is better than Johnson but Johnson after 11 seasons deserves to be mentioned in the top 10 nascar drivers of all time without question, I think the Chase has hurt Johnsons's legacy more than helped it even though the title count is "5-2" 851. murb posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeremy Mayfield vs. Shane Hmiel" I don't know if it is really fair to compare them side by side like that. Mainly it's because Hmiel never became a full on Cup driver like Mayfield did. He had a few starts in 2005 for some lower level team (I think it was Braun Racing - a good Busch team at the time, but they were not cut out for Cup), and then he got banned for life or whatever. The problem for Hmiel was that his downward spiral happened at the worst possible time. It happened right as he was trying to make it into a full time Cup ride. On the other hand, Mayfield's downward spiral seemingly happened after his tenure in Cup for the most part. He had already won races for Penske and Evernham, but he had burned his bridges with both. So aside from a mediocre and brief stint at Bill Davis Racing and his attempt to start his own team, Mayfield was basically done with Cup when he had his meltdown. I just think it is unfair to compare their careers next to each other. However, it is really awesome to see Shane Hmiel's attitude these days. He realizes he's made his mistakes, and he is motivated to get out of that wheelchair and start walking again. I hope he can be able to that. As for Mayfield's continued antics, no comment. 852. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, that comparison I made between Mayfield and Hmiel was meant to be a joke. I only did so because they were both in the news lately, what with ESPN doing a story on Hmiel and Mayfield moving from his home in Catawba County, North Carolina, plus their similar drug suspensions. I probably wasn't clear on it, but that comparison wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. In serious news, Jeffrey Earnhardt was on NASCAR Race Hub earlier this hour and announced that he will be running the full Nationwide schedule for Randy Hill/Go Green Racing in the #08 car. He isn't currently sponsored for the full season, but he has at least the first 12-15 races secured for now, and is hoping to secure sponsorship for the remainder of the schedule. He will also be competing against Hal Martin for Rookie of the Year. 853. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, SS Motorsports, a new team that attempted the Cup race at Richmond in September with Mark Green, is indicating a Nationwide schedule next season on the Facebook page. I'm not sure about any of the specifics like the driver or race lineup, but it appears that their partners want to run some Nationwide races next year, and the team will be unveiling a car layout soon. 854. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just to add to post 853, SS Motorsports also purchased a number of parts from the Robinson-Blakeney Racing auction that was held last month, so it's possible that their decision to go to Nationwide next season has to do with them purchasing one/some of Robinson's Nationwide cars. And considering how they were sponsored by Blue Ox for the Cup race they attempted, and Blue Ox's history with both Robinson and ML Motorsports, I wonder if SS Motorsports takes Robinson's job from last year and runs the #70 car whenever MLM and Johanna Long aren't running it. 855. Dave #38 Fan posted: 11.27.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) paul, jeffrey earnhardt's team for next year is fielded only be go green racing, they merged with randy hill racing about halfway through the way after they ran out of sponsorship money. randy hill was just listed on paper as the #08's owner for the rest of the season, and isn't involved with the team anymore. 856. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you kubica. I mean, just look af the 48's sheer numbers. Do you guys really think that if they kept doing the season long deal that team wouldn't have adapted to it? If the 48 has proven nothing else, it is that they have a "Go" button and can push it at will most of the time. If it were a season long tally, when they began falling behind early, they would have hit that button earlier. They don't have as good of numbers over the course of a full season because the season long standings have absolutely no impact whatsoever. So to penalize them for that is simply non sensical. And has also been mentioned, ever since Gordon backed up his phenomenol '97 season with an even better '98 season, NOBODY other than the 48 has put together more than ONE contendg season together. Even the rare back to back Top 5s like the 2 team in the last two years are a distant 5th followed by a championship. Jimmie was in championship contention 7 years in a row, and in 9 of his 11 seasons ('02, '04-'10, '12). Nobody else is in the same universe. The only thing that is legitimate to hurt them historically is their mountain of technical infractions. 857. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.27.2012 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another discredit to the #48's success is their violent hate of the #24 team. 858. Red posted: 11.27.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Jarrett = Most underrated Cup driver on Racing Reference." Dale Jarrett = Top 5 Most Overrated Driver in NASCAR History. Seriously, how can you possibly argue that DJ is underrated? He won most of his races with dominant Yates horsepower, and those wins came predominantly on cookie cutters and plate tracks. Of his 32 wins, only 12 were on driver's tracks. As soon as Yates started to fade after 2002, Jarrett's career fell off a cliff. Without an equipment advantage, DJ was basically an average Cup driver. From 2003-2006, DJ was outrun every year in equal cars by Elliott Freaking Sadler. Dale Jarrett and Bobby Labonte are the two most overrated Cup drivers of all-time, and also the two worst Cup champions in history. Short peaks aided heavily by dominant equipment, majority of wins coming on horsepower tracks, and won during one of the weakest eras in NASCAR history. The Spring Talladega race is NOT a crown jewel. Really, other than the Southern 500, the crown jewels are all hype and little substance. A plate race, a cookie cutter, and the Mecca of Aero Push are not worthy of "major" status, sorry. Win at Martinsville or a road course and that's impressive. Winning the Daytona 500 lottery (especially in recent years) just doesn't mean much to me. 859. David posted: 11.27.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Finally, the people pointing to Gordon's 95-01 period must remember that in that period the same 3 or 4 teams would monopolise the top5 at almost every race. Nascar with more stringent rule enforcement or restriction on innovation have tigthened the field for the sake of competition and close racing.Despite a longer season, its been 5 years since some one scored 20 top5s in a season and 10 wins in a season has happened once in the last 15 years." Yes, and they have also introduced the free pass, green-white-checkered rule, and the wave-around. All of them coming after Jeff's most recent title. I remember Jimmie Johnson got 3 laps back at Pocono in August 2009, and all of them were because of the free pass. 860. Paul posted: 11.27.2012 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've talked about this before, but if there was a "lucky dog" system back in '96, Jeff Gordon would have won the title. He lost a lap early at Rockingham late in the season, and while his team made great adjustments to the car and had him racing with drivers in the top five, he couldn't get back on the lead lap because drivers actually had to earn their laps back back in the day. Had he received the "lucky dog" and finished 3rd, where Terry Labonte finished, he would have won the title by 6 points, instead of losing by 43 points. And the welfare system makes the Pocono races a complete joke because since the track is so big, each lap takes about 54 seconds, and the draft isn't as big of an issue as Daytona or Talladega, all you have to do is stay out under caution, take the wave around, and a caution will come out before your next pit stop. That's exactly why Jimmie finished 4th there in June after he (and many other drivers) lost a lap by speeding on pit road. And don't get me started on the Nationwide race at Kansas when Stenhouse regained 2 laps and won. Most overrated "comeback" of the year for sure. "From 2003-2006, DJ was outrun every year in equal cars by Elliott Freaking Sadler." Jarrett is also 18 years older than Sadler and was in his 22nd NASCAR season in '03 when his performance started to slip. Like my point in this whole "Jimmie in his 11th season outperformed Jeff in his 20th season" debate, I'd be surprised and disappointed if the younger driver didn't outperform the aging veteran. Also, you have to factor in Jarrett's revolving door of crew chiefs at that time, as well as the fact that DJ, like many other veteran drivers, began to slip following Dale's death in '01. For those reasons, I think it's completely unfair to say that Jarrett is overrated just because Elliott Sadler was outperforming him at the end of his career. "Dale Jarrett and Bobby Labonte are the two most overrated Cup drivers of all-time" I guess you aren't familiar with the reigning Most Popular Drivers in the Cup and Nationwide Series. "and also the two worst Cup champions in history" Bill Rexford was the worst Cup champion of all-time. He won one race and only won the championship because Lee Petty and Red Byron were penalized for running in non-NASCAR sanctioned events. That being said, I do agree that Jarrett and Labonte are near the bottom of the totem pole in terms of the quality of Cup champion drivers, but have you seen the talent pool of drivers that have won the Cup championship? There are no scrubs (or should I say "Shrubs") that have won a Cup championship, and so saying that Jarrett and Labonte are two of the worst Cup champions in history isn't an insult because it doesn't diminish those two as drivers. Plus, someone has to be at the bottom if you were to list each champion driver. Regardless of the fact that they haven't dominated the sport the way that other champion drivers have, they each benefited from the age-old saying "right time, right place". They both were at their best when the best drivers in the sport (Jeff, Dale, Rusty, Bill, Terry, Mark) weren't at their best, and they took full advantage of this opportunity and won the championship in consecutive years. Another thing I want to say about DJ and Bobby is that neither of them ever beat themselves. If they lost a race, it wasn't because they threw in the towel or lost concentration and made a mental mistake, it was because they just weren't the better driver on that given day, and for me that's a much better excuse. Jarrett won three Daytona 500s because he was the better driver on those given days. When Jarrett lost the title in '97 and Labonte lost it in '99, it was because they got beat by a better driver in those given seasons. And when they won their respective titles in '99 and '00, they were the best drivers during their championship seasons and didn't allow outside forces hinder their championship runs. I'm a lot like former Vikings head coach Bud Grant in that I'll take a lesser talented driver that won't make a mental error over a more talented driver that is prone to make mental errors that costs him the race/championship. I'd rather go into a race with a driver like DJ or Bobby and know that I'm going to get their best and not have to worry about them making a mistake, than have a driver like Kyle or Denny and not know whether I'm getting a driver that will lead the most laps en route to victory or slap the wall and quit on the team. I couldn't care less as to how talented DJ or Bobby were in their primes compared to other champion drivers because like all the other champions in this sport, they share common traits: They have talent, they show resiliency, and they don't beat themselves. And for that, I'd take a less-talented champion driver over a super-talented non-champion driver any day because of those three traits, especially the last two. 861. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Mecca of Aero Push. I like it. 862. cjs3872 posted: 11.27.2012 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul, let's not forget that in two of those Daytona 500 victories, Dale Jarrett stood toe-to-toe with the best plate racer of that era, and maybe of all-time, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., and beat him heads-up both times. But your point about those drivers in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s being mentally tougher is my exact point about one reason why Jimmie Johnson won five straight championships. the competition he faced was mentally weaker than his team was, and they folded under the pressure in 2008 and 2010. In 2006, Kenseth nearly stole the championship despite Johnson having a vastly superior car, and in 2007 and 2009, Johnson's team knew they had their competition in their pockets, being that they were battling other HMS teams. But the two times that the #48 team went up against teams as mentally strong as they are (2005, '12), not only did they get beat, but they also beat themselves both times. That's something you would rarely see the drivers and teams in the 90s and early 2000s doing. You would never see Dale Jarrett, Tony Stewart, or the Labonte brothers beat themselves the way guys like Carl Edwards, Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, and others continue to do, seemingly without end. There's a reason why guys like Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson continue to thrive in the sport's biggest events. It's because there isn't anyone else out there that can consistently challenge them without beating themselves. Johnson won two of the big ones this past season, Kenseth won his second Daytona 500, Kasey Kahne won his third Coca-Cola 600, and Brad Keselowski won his second Talladega spring race. Meanwhile, Denny Hamlin has won only one big one (the 2010 Southern 500), Carl Edwards is still zero-for the crown jewels, and Kyle Busch can't come through when it matters because he doesn't have the temperment. And if Jeff Gordon gets back in contention, he'll find a way to win big races again. And in the case of Gordon, he might actually cause some of the other drivers to "hear those footsteps" again, much like when Jack Nicklaus returned to the stage in the 1986 Masters. The others heard those footsteps, and they all crumbled under the pressure of a man who never beat himself, but knew his competition would, more often than not, beat themselves in the big moments. I believe the same is true with Jeff Gordon. If he gets in contention in the big races again, his very presence may cause the drivers who aren't as mentally tough to make a mistake that they wouldn't make if someone else was chasing them. When Jeff Gordon was winning big races hand over fist, he knew three things. His team was the best, he wouldn't crumble under the pressure, and he figured his competition would crumble under the pressure, and if he returns to contention in the Daytona 500, the Coca-Cola 600, the Southern 500, or the Brickyard 400, don't be surprised if his mere presence causes the contenders to screw up, because it's happened before. 863. 18fan posted: 11.27.2012 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, Kyle has won 2 crown jewels, winning Darlington and the spring Talladega race in 2008. And, he's done something few drivers have done, which is win at a track 4 years in a row. Plus, he would've won the 2009 Daytona 500 before he was taken out in the crash when Junior took out Brian Vickers, and he was leading the 2009 Coca-Cola 600 when the rain came, but Steve Addington brought him down pit road and the race never restarted. 864. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.27.2012 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, I love ya dude, but did you really just say Tony never beats himself? Was that a misprint? A typo? 865. cjs3872 posted: 11.28.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Tony cetrtainly doesn't beat himself nearly as much as some of the others today. He's certainly guilty of beating himself in the past. That can not be argued. In fact, when I was referring to what Jeff Gordon's mere presence near the front of the Daytona 500 late in the 2005 race did to contenders, I was pointing at him more than anyone else, because he made numerous mistakes late in that race that other drivers may not have forced him into. But he does not do that nearly as much as he once did. And 18fan, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that Kyle Busch would have won the 2009 Daytona 500 if not for being involved in that huge wreck. Remember that he had the dominant car in the Daytona 500 the year before, and beat himself, and I believe he would have found a way to beat himself in the 2009 Daytona 500, as well, even though he had the best car, by far, and the same would likely have been true in the Coca-Cola 600. With the way Kasey Kahne was pressuring him, had it not rained, there would have been a good chance that Kyle would have found a way to lose that race, as well. Put Kyle Busch in a high-pressure situation in a big moment, and he'll always find a way to beat himself. His track record shows that over the years. And even in the 2008 Southern 500 that he won, he tried every way imaginable to lose that race by hitting the wall as many times as he did, but the only guy capable of keeping up with him (Carl Edwards) has an even worse track record in those situations than Kyle does, so Kyle kind of won that one by default. Kyle Busch just does not have the temperment to succeed when the pressure is highest. 866. Sean posted: 11.28.2012 - 4:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd go easier on Jarrett than Red did (although harder than everyone else would - there are still tons of non-champions better than him). But Red basically seems to be the only one to get it, and the only one who (correctly) acknowledges that the late '90s was a much shallower era than today. Let's put it this way - no Jeremy Mayfield-level talent would lead the points after nearly half a season in this era... The '90s had few good rookies and the late '90s continued to be dominated by established stars who were at the tail end of their prime (kind of like Gordon and Stewart now), while the 2000s had TONS of new stars and many more drivers who could conceivably win titles (and I pretty much don't believe in this mental toughness crap that everyone else likes to talk about...I take it BARELY more seriously than marquee race wins...lots of the drivers people predict will never win titles due to "mental weakness" eventually will because SOME OF THEM HAVE TO). Jarrett and Martin were the only major drivers (I would count Jarrett as major, Red wouldn't, but he'd be at the bottom of my major driver list anyway...) that Gordon had to beat, and Jarrett and Martin are both overrated (since EVERYONE calls Martin the best driver to never win a title when it's by no means clear that Martin's even the best non-champion of the modern era, and he doesn't come CLOSE to Junior Johnson, Fireball Roberts, or Fred Lorenzen). Jeff Burton and Bobby Labonte were never major, and BL lost the ONE distinctive career stat he had when the far superior Brad Keselowski joined him as a Cup/Nationwide champion. As for the Jarrett vs. Sadler thing, that just depended on which team had Todd Parrott at the time. Parrott elevated every team he was with for a long time, to the point of making Dale Jarrett a champion, Elliott Sadler a chaser, and David Gilliland a Daytona 500 polesitter. Bill Rexford's the worst champion and I'd put Jarrett above B. Labonte and essentially equal to Kenseth... But definitely near the bottom of the list, and behind a ton of non-champions. As for the MOST overrated? Sorry, everyone, still going with Davey Allison (who is rated WAY higher than Jarrett or B. Labonte). When people are penciling in a guy who won 19 races in 6.5 years to win 80 races and put up Jeff Gordon numbers when he never showed THAT kind of potential (he was Mark Martin-esque to me), it's pretty extreme to me. The argument is that he was about to enter his prime. The only reason it usually took drivers until their 30s to enter their prime back then is that it took many years for most drivers to get into good equipment. Davey had top-notch equipment from day one. 1992 was about as good as he was ever going to do in his career (especially considering Ford's overwhelming dominance that year). He WAS better than Jarrett and if he'd managed to land a superstar crew chief like Todd Parrott rather than a hack like Larry McReynolds, he could have finished with maybe 40-50 wins. But he's talked about like a top ten driver and I don't see him as being close, and it seems like a slap in the face to superior non-champions at the exact same time like Harry Gant who nobody talks about now... Junior isn't particularly overrated, because he isn't rated highly by knowledgeable fans. I wouldn't determine overrated/underrated based strictly on fanboy ratings. 867. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.28.2012 - 6:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because if Davey lived, Yates would have turned into a power house and the top dog in the Ford camp. Also, Bill Rexford was a much better champion then people give credit for. Yes, Lee Petty had the penalty, but if you break the rules, there's hell to pay. That logic says Dale Sr. is overrated because he wouldn't have won 1990 without Mark's penalty. Rexford might not have had the best numbers, but he was the very best of those drivers... also Rexford ran over half of the season on dirt. 868. jabber1990 posted: 11.28.2012 - 10:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am trying to write a story about a NASCAR-style racing series, using some of the same rules of NASCAR without actually considering it NASCAR. the basic symphosis is a young 20 year old driver who has won 3 consecutive titles in the series lowest series, meanwhile there are 2 other drivers, a Brother-sister team who are basically dominating the circuit, by being in superior cars, a superior team, and also being good drivers with a great team behind them, also they have accidentally gotten into the heads of their competitors and many of them crack under the pressure. he is a 4 time champion, she has only 3 titles, they did have an off-year by not winning the title, but they spent that year trying to kill each other. the story tells of his struggle being in an underdog team while not cracking under the pressure of being a rookie trying to compete against the 2 the 2 of them also run in a lower series, (yes, modeled after the nationwide series, coincidentally they run the same cars, except they use Camaros and don't use Toyotas) the brother also runs full-time in a lower series, they race SUV's in that Series (Escape, Tahoe, and Durango) meanwhile the sisters daughter is a young up-and-comer, she is racing in the lowest series of the circuit, the story also tells her story of trying to compete in the field are there any other subplots I should mention in the story? or do I have it pretty well summed up by itself? 869. jabber1990 posted: 11.28.2012 - 11:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) some of the sponsor ideas, for the 20 year old I was thinking like Super 8 Motels, but somebody else suggested Jiffy Lube, what do you think? the Brother: Central Refrigerated Service Greyhound Uhaul Department 56 the Sister Manpower Manpower Groups and for the daughter/niece I was thinking Aeropostale cause shes only 16 870. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.28.2012 - 12:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jabber, if you wanna make money on this, include vampires or zombies. Everything nowadays has vampires or zombies in it. Abraham Lincoln also seems to be making a comeback in pop culture. Not sure how you'd work him in. Seriously though, if you have a true passion for story telling, go for it. Chase your dreams. If you come across writer's block, take a few days and try not to even think about it before coming back to it. One thought on the late 90's: In 1999, races 2-4 ended with Mike Skinner leading the points. Dale was having to look up in the standings to his Lowe's sponsored teammate! Jeff Gordon, who always valued Dale's advice and looked to him to emulate..... I'll let you guys take the joke from here :) 871. cjs3872 posted: 11.28.2012 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Your theory on Yates becoming the top dog in the Ford camp if Davey had survived has one flaw, NicoRosbergFan. In the second half of the 1990s, Yates was the top team in the Ford camp, anyway, and won the championship in 1999 with Dale Jarrett. The only difference was the time it took for them to win the championship. And Sean, the difference between the competition level in the 90s and the competition level today is this. The competition in the 90s was top-heavy, in that there were more first-tier drivers than there are today. But today, there are more drivers capable of winning races, but a good number of those drivers are not top-tier drivers. There's more competition today among the second-level teams and drivers that could win races, but there were more elite drivers in the 90s and early 2000s. 872. Sean posted: 11.28.2012 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As long as you're not counting people like Bobby Labonte and Jeff Burton as elite back then and ignoring superior drivers you consider mentally weak now. I'd still take Denny Hamlin or Kyle Busch NOW over somebody like Rusty in the late '90s. 873. David posted: 11.28.2012 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I agree that all championships should hold near equal value, the problem with that is that the national championship didn't mean all that much to the drivers until 1972, when Winston created the points fund for the competitors. As a result, many legends such as Fred Lorenzen or Fireball Roberts never competed for the title. 874. Paul posted: 11.28.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can try to disprove our mentally weak driver theory all you want, but given the fact that Bobby Labonte has a Cup championship driving for the same team as Denny Hamlin and Kyle Busch, I'll take a driver like Bobby over those two any day. And it's not just because he is a mentally and emotionally stronger driver and person than those two, but it's also because Bobby isn't a driver who will beat himself and cost himself a good finish. With Bobby, if he had a top five car, he would finish in the top five. With Kyle or Denny, you don't know whether they'll take their top five car and win the race, or if they encounter a problem (pit stop, spin out, speeding, etc.) and take themselves out of the game in the process. Like I said before, I'll take a less-talented driver who won't beat himself (Bobby, DJ, Burton) over a more-talented driver who has proven to be a choker in tough racing situations (Kyle, Denny, Carl). Mental mistakes beat drivers and athletes more than anything, and that's why despite their immense talents, the latter three that I mentioned have achieved similar, if not less in NASCAR because they each have the tendency to beat themselves (although I do think Carl is the most capable of winning a Cup championship). "Junior isn't particularly overrated, because he isn't rated highly by knowledgeable fans." I determine a driver's rating based on how much media coverage they get. For example, Junior and Danica get more coverage than their achievements should garnish, therefore I consider them to be overrated. On the other hand, Matt Kenseth for example actually has a Cup championship and is consistently near the front, and receives very little coverage, therefore I consider him to be underrated. I know that the NASCAR media caters to the fanboys and fangirls of NASCAR who don't know anything, but because they get most of the coverage, they get the most attention, and a lot of their attention is undeserving, which makes them overrated. NicoRosbergFan, I never said that Bill Rexford wasn't talented. But because he won only one race and won his only championship because the driver ahead of him was penalized, that makes him the worst Cup champion in NASCAR history. And as far as Dale Earnhardt's '90 championship, he also won six other championships in his career, and therefore receives the benefit of the doubt, similar to how Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart did when they won their rain-shortened races this season. If a driver has a history of winning, they receive a pass if they win on a technicality. 875. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.28.2012 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To give Rexford more credit Paul, it was the only time he ran full-time in any series, so we don't know if he could have won more races or titles, really. 876. Paul posted: 11.28.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fair point Nico, but we can't assume that Rexford would have been a better champion than Jarrett or Labonte just because he won the title in his only full-time season either. And just looking at his overall numbers, they're not impressive at all. In the 16 starts he made following his '50 title season, he recorded just 1 top five and led 0 laps, all while still driving for Julian Buesink, his car owner in 1950. Plus, his lone win in 1950 was his only career lead lap finish. I just think that he was a "one-year wonder" who got lucky by winning the championship because the driver in front of him in points was penalized for competing in a non-NASCAR sanctioned race, and wound up winning the championship by a similar margin over Lee Petty than he would have lost by as a result. Also, you have to factor in the number of starts that he made that season. He and Lee were in the most races, and as a result had an advantage towards winning the championship over everybody else. Fireball Roberts, who I believe was the greatest driver that never won a Cup championship, ran half as many races as Rexford and finished 2nd in the points. As we all know, the points structure was very different back then as it rewarded more points for the marquee races. But speaking of the points structure, this one really baffles me. Curtis Turner won the most races (4) and competed in just one less race than Rexford with more top fives an equal races finished, finished 5th in the points. I understand that the points were structured differently back then, but I'm amazed as to how far back Turner was having had more wins than Rexford. All of that, and the fact that Rexford had an average finish that was over three positions worse than Lee Petty, and I consider him to be the worst Cup champion in NASCAR history. I understand that the sport was much different back then and I'm not trying to discredit his status as a driver, especially one who competed in NASCAR's pioneer days, but I do think that his lack of success before and after his championship season puts him at the very bottom of the totem pole of NASCAR Cup champions. 877. Talon64 posted: 11.28.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official: Eldora and the-track-formerly-known-as-Mosport for the Trucks in 2013! No Greenville-Pickens or Myrtle Beach just yet, but there's a good chance they could be added to the schedule in 2014! 878. cjs3872 posted: 11.28.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed Paul, and part of being mentally strong is not beating yourself. After all, how many times did drivers like Jeff Burton, Dale Jarrett, the Labonte brothers, and others like them ever let the fact that someone was chasing them down late in a big race, just throw it away. If you were going to beat them, you were going to have to beat them, because they wouldn't give it to you by making a mistake under pressure. I've said and will continue to say tht was a big part of why Jimmie Johnson and the #48 team won five consecutive championships. Because some of those that challenged them were mentally weak, like Carl Edwards in 2008 and Denny Hamlin in 2010. Jimmie didn't win those championships as much as Edwards and Hamlin lost them. Trust me, Matt Kenseth does not lose the 2008 title that Edwards lost, and maybe not the 2011 title, either, and a tougher driver like Labonte or Tony Stewart doesn't lose the 2010 title the way Hamlin did. And of course, the proof is in the utting where those drivers are concerned in the most important races, as well, because Hamlin was only one win in those races, which is one more than Edwards has, which is a big fat zero. Even Trevor Bayne, Regan Smith, and Paul Menard each have as many wins in the sport's biggest races as does Hamlin and Edwards combined, because they did not fold under the pressure like guys like Edwards, Hamlin, Kyle Busch constantly do. Bayne held up under the heaviest pressure in a race where almost all of the other big names had trouble, Smith failed to beat himself in his Darlington win, and Menard didn't buckle when Jeff Gordon, perhaps the greatest modern-day driver, was charging at him in the closing laps at Indy. Bayne, Smith, and Menard performed under pressure the way that Hamlin, Edwards, and Busch have proven over and over that they can't. And that's what separates the good ones from the great ones. The great ones can stand the pressure and even thrive under it, while the merely good ones can't stand the heat. 879. 18fan posted: 11.28.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While we're on the subject of failing when the pressure was it's highest in terms of big races, what about Rusty, who was a great driver but only won 1 major. Unless you count the Bristol night race, which he won multiple times. 880. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.28.2012 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know this is unrelated, but could the webmaster please update the IZOD IndyCar Series page to have James Hinchcliffe as the most popular driver? 881. Eric posted: 11.28.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, I don't Rusty can be really be under falling under pressure outside the Brickyard 400, because a good amount of tracks that were majors not his best tracks to begin with. Rusty never won Darlington in his career back when Darlington had 2 dates. That meant you can't say Rusty was falling under pressure at the Southern 500. Rusty did give wins at Brickyard, but The world 600, Daytona 500, and the Southern are different for Rusty. While Rusty in 1999 choked for the Daytona 500, Rusty never won a plate race. Plate Racing was not a strength for Rusty. My theory on choking on majors is if a driver wins a track that has 2 race dates, but doesn't win on the date that has a major is a sign of choking. Tony Stewart at Daytona is a prime example of that. I don't see that out of Rusty for Daytona and Darlington. Rusty was at his best at his at true driver tracks such as short tracks, 1 mile tracks, road courses and Pocono. Rusty's track record at Darlington is surprise. The fact Rusty was great at Indy was not a shock despite not having a win there. Rusty had an easier time on 2 mile ovals than on 1 and half mile ovals. While Rusty won at Charlotte 2 times including the 1990 600, Rusty only had 8 top at the track in 48 starts despite having 22 top 10's there. The other thing with Rusty is he didn't have track record at another 1 and a half mile track at Atlanta. Rusty had 2 wins there, but he only had 8 top 5's and 16 top 10's in 47 starts. As a whole Rusty was so-so at mile and half track despite the fact Kasnas was his best out of the never 1 and a half mile tracks on the circuit. 882. Eric posted: 11.28.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know cjs3872 looks at Rusty differently under pressure, but cjs3872 doesn't look at how Rusty is under the same track when it is not a major. The only major that cjs3872 and I would agree is Rusty choked for the Brickyard 400 multiple times. Rusty when raced for the July Daytona, he was like was for the Daytona 500. Rusty was the same the same way for Talladega. While Rusty choked in the 1999 Daytona 500, Rusty usually wasn't that great at plate racing at all. There are some drivers cup drivers in the past or current that are just not great plate drivers and Rusty is one of them. Rusty's best finish for the spring Darlington race was 3rd and that only happened once compare to Rusty Finishing 2nd in the Southern 500 2 times. That says while Rusty had his better career finish at the track for the Southern 500, Darlington has weakest of the oval driver tracks for him. Rusty did finish 2 to Gordon multiple times in the 600, but Rusty does not have outstanding stats at Charlotte Motorspeedway. Rusty only had 8 top 5's in 48 starts at the track with 5 of them happening at the 600. 883. David posted: 11.28.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jabber, if you wanna make money on this, include vampires or zombies. Everything nowadays has vampires or zombies in it." Isn't it the truth! 884. cjs3872 posted: 11.28.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, except for maybe the 2000 Brickyard 400, I don't think Rusty choked at Indy in his second place finishes. In 1995, he got beat by a fluke occurrence that happened after his final pit stop was complete when two cars got together in front of him and he had to get on the brakes or hit those cars. But the time he lost in doing that cost him the race, but it was hardly Rusty's fault. In 2000, he did lead most of the race, only to get passed by Bobby Labonte with about 15 laps to go. But judging by how fast Labonte then sped away from him, I'm not sure I'd call that a choke job, either, and in 2002, he again lost to a much faster car in Bill Elliott. However, in the Coca-Cola 600, in which he finished second four times (1988, '94, '97-'98), ironically all to Hendrick cars, you could call at least one of them a choke, and that would be the 1998 race, but the others I'm not sure I would call chokes. In the 1988 race, he just flat got beat by Darrell Waltrip, in 1994, he was beat by a two-tire pit stop, and in 1997, a speeding penalty altered the pit strategy, and he got passed with less than 20 laps to go in the shortened race. Even the 1987 race, which Rusty also seemed to have won, got away from him as a result of a mechaincal problem. And the mystery as to why Rusty could never win at Darlington is a strange one, though he was always one of those guys, like Tony Stewart is now, that always liked to run on the bottom of the track, and maybe the reason he never won there was because he was never comfortable running next to the wall, because I suspect that's a major reason why Stewart's never won there. And as for Tony in the Daytona 500, it can be argued that he may have given away his chances at winning that race when he gave away that race four times in five years (2004-'05, '07-'08) by making mistakes, because except for 2011, he's never been close since, and he never led that race at any time. He's actually been just as good in the Coca-Cola 600, as he could have won that race as many as three or four times very easily, but it's always gotten away from him, the most heartbreaking case of all being 2008 when he was leading comfortably with three laps to go, only to have a flat tire take him out of the lead. 885. 18fan posted: 11.29.2012 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting thing about Tony. He's won 3 championships with 3 different point systems (2002 with the full-season Latford system, 2005 with the Chase and Latford system, which had been slightly altered since 2002, and 2011 with the Chase and Brian France's "simple" points system.) And Tony in the 2008 Daytona 500 might have been one of the biggest single race chokes that I've ever seen. 886. Bronco posted: 11.29.2012 - 2:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Because some of those that challenged them were mentally weak, like Carl Edwards in 2008 and Denny Hamlin in 2010. Jimmie didn't win those championships as much as Edwards and Hamlin lost them." Even if Carl didn't cause the Big One late in the 2008 Talladega chase race, he still had the ignition problem at Charlotte which resulted in him finishing in the 30s which would have cost him the championship anyways - so how does that have anything to do with him being mentally weak? As for Denny, he ran out of fuel in a race that he should have won (Phoenix) and couldn't rally from a bad starting spot at Homestead. "Trust me, Matt Kenseth does not lose the 2008 title that Edwards lost, and maybe not the 2011 title, either, and a tougher driver like Labonte or Tony Stewart doesn't lose the 2010 title the way Hamlin did. " Lol, that's a baseless statement since Matt hasn't seriously contended for a championship since 2006. Matt may have more wins in the "majors" than Carl, but head to head Carl is the better driver. Carl has finished in front of Matt in the points 4 times in 7 seasons, and has a better win % and top 10 percentage. Not only that, but Carl is a far more versatile driver. It's not like Brad was perfect during the final 10 races either, he just had better luck than everyone else. Twice during the chase did he run out of fuel costing him top 10s (Charlotte and Homestead). The reason why it didn't cost him the title is because his main rivals had even worse luck. If Clint doesn't get wrecked at Talladega and Phoenix then he might have won. If JJ, who held the point lead with two to go (and held the wins tie-breaker) doesn't blow a tire and have a faulty gear then he might have won. 887. cjs3872 posted: 11.29.2012 - 8:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, what you said about Hamlin at Phoenix and Homestead in 2010 makes my point for me. His team imploded with that bad fuel mileage gamble at Phoenix and then Hamlin himself did the same thing at Homestead, qualifying poorly and then spinning out by himself early in that race. And as for your statement about Kenseth not being as good as Edwards, that's ridiculous. Put Kenseth in a good car, and he's a very capable championship driver that won't make mistakes, unlike Edwards, who has proven time and time again that he can't handle the pressure. Edwards may be more talented, but I'll take Kenseth all the time because he won't make the mistakes Edwards makes. Trust me, Gibbs just hired the best driver he's had since Tony Stewart left because Kenseth actually has the whole package. And another thing. Johnson's blown tire at Phoenix was a direct result of pushing it too hard when he knew he could be having such a problem. What he should have done was to take it easy, make a pit stop, which they close to having to make anyway, and then race to the finish. Johnson should have known better than to run as hard as he did just before the tire blew. And he would have lost the championship even if whatever went wrong mechanically didn't go wrong because of that botched pit stop that preceeded it. 888. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.29.2012 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Logano at Penske will be intersting, too. He wouldn't have been my first choice, but he did show some signs of improvement this season (more in NNW that Cup). He could turn out to be decent with a change of scenery (1 or 2 wins a season), though not the championship caliber driver he was once hyped to be. Or, he could just backslide to his mid-pack form now that he has a new contract inked." I think it will be the latter. He is pretty much JGR's and soon to be Penske's version of David Ragan. He'll probably finish in the top 10 more frequently than Ragan, but I see him being behind Brad by a lot, just as he was to Kyle and Denny. 889. David posted: 11.29.2012 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Interesting thing about Tony. He's won 3 championships with 3 different point systems (2002 with the full-season Latford system, 2005 with the Chase and Latford system, which had been slightly altered since 2002, and 2011 with the Chase and Brian France's "simple" points system.)" The BFSEAMCUIPS (Brian France's "So Easy, A Monkey Could Understand It" Points System) is what you mean by simple. I'm thinking about changing "monkey" to "caveman". That way, we can call it the "GEICO points system". 890. Bronco posted: 11.29.2012 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And as for your statement about Kenseth not being as good as Edwards, that's ridiculous." Look at their careers in their 8 full seasons as teammates together (2005-2012) Number of full seasons where Carl has finished ahead of Matt = 5 Number of championships won during that time: Carl 0, Matt 0 Number of championships contended for during that time: Carl (2008,2011), Matt (2006) Number of wins (2005-2012): Carl 19, Matt 15 Number of chase berths: Carl 6, Matt 7 Top 10s: Carl 152, Matt 146 Top 5s: Carl 91, Matt 8 Major events won: Carl 0, Matt 2 (Two Daytona 500s) So call it a close one or whatever you want, but there's no denying that Carl comes out ahead. Matt would never have won the championships that Carl didn't because even though Matt may make less mistakes, he's also far less aggressive and not in position to win races and contend for championships as much as Carl is. As an example, The only time Matt came close to winning a championship (in those 8 years that I mentioned) was 2006 when he held the points lead after Atlanta with three races remaining. What did he do? He went out and finished 12th at Texas and 13th at Phoenix while JJ scored consecutive 2nd place finishes to steal the title from him. Prior to Atlanta his finishes weren't that stellar which was why JJ was able to even win the title that year despite a disastrous start. In that same scenario, Carl would have had much better finishes to begin with to have made it extremely tough for JJ to catch back up. "Put Kenseth in a good car, and he's a very capable championship driver that won't make mistakes, unlike Edwards, who has proven time and time again that he can't handle the pressure." And as I mentioned earlier, Kenseth has had good enough cars to make the chase for all but one year of its existence but once he gets in, if nothing disastrous happens to him, he isn't able to string together the kind of finishes needed to win a championship. Time will tell, but as it stands Carl has a far better chance of winning next year's championship and even the one after it especially now that he has Kenseth's old crew chief. 891. Bronco posted: 11.29.2012 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The new 2013 Chevy SS cup car revealed. Better looking than the Camry, but even close to the Fusion and the now defunct Charger. http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-nascar-chevrolet-ss/full/#photo-5467138/ 892. jabber1990 posted: 11.29.2012 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) those Chevys are Mean-looking but only on Stewart and McMurray, for some reason they just look stupid on Jimmie's car, and I am indiffrent on how it looks on Harvick 893. jabber1990 posted: 11.29.2012 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) hey wait, do they have grilles on them? what about on the Fords? Toyotas? 894. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.29.2012 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really like the way these new cars look. I can even live with their names being at the top of the windshield. They have done a good job as far as the look. Of course the true test will be how they race. I am fully expecting it to be a work in progress. If the Vegas and Texas races are duds, I won't panic. If the mile and a half is still bad by Kentucky, then it is time to worry. Also, it looks like somebody got to Brad's phone and hacked his Twitter, posting things like "I like nice clothes" and "I love my phone". Really freaking hilarious. Imagine if drivers like Tim Richmond or Neil Bonnett could get ahold of Earnhardt's Twitter account in the mid 80's (if it existed back then). What kind of shit would they write? Or worse, what kind of pics would they send out on his account? Do I need to bring up the promotional poster for The Winston in 1987 again? One other Brad nugget: There is a hilarious video of him online doing basketball drills at some halftime show, looking exactly like what you would expect a 6 foot tall, 160 pound whiter than cream cheese race car driver to look like playing basketball. This is where we need Earnhardt, Richmond, or Bonnett to be around to give him hell. Damn Brad came along 30 years too late. But upon closer inspection of the video, he is at the Charlotte Bobcats Arena. He would actually be an improvement for that joke of a team. So MJ, find his number. Speaking of MJ, he got banned from a golf course for wearing shorts. Michael Jordan can get banned from ANYWHERE? Not a good few years for His Airness. He gets his company to sponsor Denny Hamlin while Adidas has Brad K, he is the owner of the professional basketball team with the worst winning % ever, and now he gets kicked off a golf course. Ouch. Speaking of golf courses...... actually that is all I have for today. 895. cjs3872 posted: 11.29.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, did it ever occur to you that Roush did not want Kenseth to legitimately contend for championships, while Edwards was the guy that Roush really wanted to contend for the championship? That's why I said that if they're given equal cars and equal chances to succeed, I'll take Kenseth over Edwards over the long haul every time. And also, Roush fought his hardest to kep Edwards, but made virtually no attempt to do the same with Edwards. It's obvious that Edwards has been the guy that Roush has wanted to succeed among his Cup drivers, not Kenseth, yet it's Kenseth that wins big when he wins. It's the same thing as it's been with his Nationwide team, where he's made every attempt to put Ricky Stenhouse in a position to win the championship, while he's made no attempt at all over the last couple of years to find sponsorship for Trevor Bayne, and even prevented Bayne from potentially joining Roger Penske's team as Brad Keselowski's teammate. Why? Because Stenhouse is Roush's main guy for the future, not Bayne, and he doesn't want Bayne to possibly compete against his team in a good car. I believe Roush is making an attempt to run Bayne for the Nationwide championship, because Ford wants him to, not because Roush wants to. If it was up to Roush, he'd put someone else in that car that brings sponsorship, even if it's a collection of his Cup drivers, or even shut down his Nationwide team, but Ford is, more or less, forcing Bayne onto Roush. But Roush is why Edwards has been competing for championships, and not Kenseth. But I'll take Kenseth over Edwards every time, because he won't make the mistakes that Edwards is almost certain to make. And I still believe that Roush, or his organization somehow sabotaged Kenseth's championship bid in those first few Chase races, as well as the races leading up to the Chase. (Seriously, stuff falling off the car under caution?) Once those championship hopes were dashed, Kenseth was his usual rock-solid self, because nothing was falling off the cars any more. 896. Bronco posted: 11.29.2012 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My post should have said the Chevy SS is better looking than the Camry, but it's not even nearly as good as the Fusion and Charger. Also, I think it sucks that Chevy is waiting until the Daytona 500 weekend to debut the street version of the car which supposedly won't even go on sale until next fall. 897. Paul posted: 11.29.2012 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It sounds to me that it's up to Chevrolet (and when I say Chevrolet, I mean HMS) to promote their street car for next fall by dominating Cup next year, especially since the Chase will be occurring at around the same time, which is when HMS (or more specifically, the #48 team) is on its A-game. I'm curious to see how HMS performs next year knowing the uncertainties going into 2013, such as Junior's health, Gordon's age, Kasey's past inability to have back-to-back great seasons, the hangover that could unrest the #48 team, the SHR/Danica situation, and the emergence of EGR into their stable. It's hard to predict how good HMS will be next season with all of those elements involved, but it wouldn't surprise me either way if they perform great or mediocre by their standards. I think the #24 team has the most momentum going into 2013, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were the best HMS team throughout the regular season, kind of how they were in '07, '10 (even without wins), and to an extent '11. 898. Eric posted: 11.29.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, There is a problem with your stats comparing Matt to Carl beside only typing 8 for top 5's. Matt Kenseth had crew chief problems in 2008, 2009, and 2010. Matt in in those 3 years through 4 crew chiefs and only 2 wins. Matt's final of the 4 crew chiefs he had in that span was good for Matt is Jimmy Fenning. Matt had crew chief problems after Robbie Reiser was promoted by Roush before getting Jimmy Fenning. Carl for most his career in Cup before 2012 had the same drew chief outside of 2006 in a crew chief swap. Matt from 2005 to 2011 had 5 crew chiefs and Carl only had 2. That meant Carl had better win totals as a result due to him having stability for a crew chief position. Matt had crew chiefs between Robbie Reiser and Jimmy Fenning that simply didn't work out for Matt. 899. Paul posted: 11.29.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, were there any other drivers or crew members with "White boy" Brad in that video? Not only did Brad come around 30 years too late, but he came around 30 years too late all by himself. No other driver is capable of being the Rusty to his Earnhardt, or the Tim Richmond to his Neil Bonnett. I think Brad is a one-of-a-kind character in this day and age, and it's a shame that that personality is being wasted with almost nobody to share it with. I mentioned this before, but I would love to see a friendly rivalry between Brad and Trevor Bayne. Provided that Trevor makes it to Cup on a full-time basis (preferably with a team other than Roush. Penske's #22 anyone?), I think that Trevor, like Brad, is the type who doesn't fold under pressure (Daytona '11), takes necessary risks when it counts (Texas '11), and isn't afraid to confront another driver (Bristol '12). Plus, how cool would it be to see those two drivers go at it for the championship knowing how different they are? With Brad being a politically incorrect northerner that drinks beer and cusses on camera, and Trevor being a humble Christian southerner who acts very mature beyond his years, that would be a very intriguing battle that I think a lot of people would be interested in. I was shopping the other day and I saw the movie 61*, which documents the battle between Yankees' greats Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris as they were seeking breaking Babe Ruth's single-season home run record, and I see some similarities between Brad (Mantle) and Trevor (Maris) from that 1961 baseball season. I see Brad as sort of the rowdy, popular figure that a lot of fans can relate to, and I see Trevor as sort of the quieter player that can fall under the radar because he doesn't go out seeking attention, but can still get the job done. And yet, as they were battling for the home run record and caught the eyes of a lot of baseball fans during that summer stretch, they maintained a friendship with one another despite their differing personalities, and I feel that Brad and Trevor could be like Mantle and Maris in that way. Now I'm not saying that Trevor would beat Brad the way Maris beat Mantle, but I feel that having someone like Trevor chasing Brad for the title would keep Brad on his toes because he would know that he can't screw up and lose the title because there's a good chance that Trevor won't screw up either way. Basically what I'm saying is that if the situation was right (such as leaving Roush for another team. Penske's #22 seems about right...), I think that having someone Trevor trailing him would push Brad to his absolute best because he would have someone capable of winning the championship without beating himself in the process. And at the same time, I feel they could be good friends off the track at the same time. It wouldn't be the same as Dale/Rusty (or even Richmond's genitals to Bonnett's shoulder, LOL), but I feel it would be the next best thing. 900. Talon64 posted: 11.29.2012 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The last driver/CC combo to win a championship in their first year together was Dale Earnhardt and Andy Petree in 1993, and also won in 1994 to make it back-to-back championships in their first two years together. Of course, Earnhardt was already a 5-time Cup champ by then who'd won championships with two different crew chiefs prior to that. The best Carl/Fennig could do next season is what Hamlin/Stewart did this year: win a bunch of races but fall short in the Chase. Which'd even fall in line with the trend for Carl: Great year in 2011, bad year in 2012, good year in 2013. But nothing's guaranteed, since Carl and Kenseth's personalities are drastically different and Kenseth needed a few years and a couple of different crew chiefs before landing on the right one. Carl might need to go through that as well. As for Carl vs. Kenseth, direct head-to-head comparisons don't tell the full story between drivers who're 8 years apart in age. Carl's still directly in the prime of his career and will be for the next few years, while Kenseth's approaching the end. Comparing their first 8 years in Cup is a much better tell, since both driver started out as the up-and-comer but by their 7th years there were already the lead drivers for Roush. Kenseth was 28 in his first full season, Edwards was 25. Kenseth 2000-07: 16 wins (ranked 6th in series over that span) Wins in 7 of his first 8 seasons, including 6 in a row (2002-07) Series-high 5 wins in 2002 78 top 5's (4th) 140 top 10's (3rd) Series-high 25 top 10's in 2003 4,831 laps led (5th) 14.63 average finish (4th) 2000 Cup ROTY 2003 Cup champion 2006 championship runner-up 3 top 4 points finishes 6 points finishes of 8th or better Edwards 2005-12: 19 wins (ranks 5th in series over that span) Wins in 5 of his first 8 seasons, never more than 3 winning seasons in a row Series-high 9 wins in 2008 91 top 5's (5th) Series-high 19 top 5's in both 2008 and 2011 152 top 10's (4th) Series-high 27 top 10's in 2008 and 26 top 10's in 2011 4,168 laps led (9th) 13.04 average finish (3rd) 3 times finishing at least T-2nd in points (2005, 2008, 2011) 4 top 5 points finishes 5 points finishes of 9th or better Carl has the better overall numbers and better high's (Carl's 2008 season is probably one of the 4 best seasons anyone's had in Cup since 1999, right there with Jeff in 2001 and Jeff & Jimmie in 2007), but he's also had worse lows. In fact, Kenseth clearly progressed upward from his rookie season onward until 2007 (except for his 2001 sophomore slump) while Carl's erratically jumped between elite and also-ran right from the get-go, with a number of large win-less streaks along the way: 3 of 52+, while Kenseth's longest was 60 from mid-2000 to early-2002. Their rankings vs. their competition are pretty equal, and then Kenseth has that Cup championship under his belt. So a first-8-year comparison... It makes me want to lean towards Kenseth. Carl's had more highs and better overall numbers, but Kenseth's consistency and Cup championship give him the edge. Plus, 12 of Carl's 19 career Cup wins all came in a 58 race stretch; 20.69% win %, in the Tim Flock and Herb Thomas bracket of all-time-best. But then 7 wins over his other 243 starts, a 2.88% win % that puts him inbetween the Jeff Burton/Clint Bowyer (3.21% and 3.16%) and Jamie McMurray (1.64%) brackets. That his career's been made out of one brilliant run, surrounded by such average output, has to put him behind Kenseth who was a reliable race winner through his first 8 seasons. But as much as I dislike Carl, he deserves a championship sometime down the road. He's owns not only two of the best Chase's by a driver who didn't win the championship, 2008 and 2011, but they're among the best overall. 901. David posted: 11.29.2012 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprise of the year: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. won the Most Popular Driver award. How on earth did this happen?? 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Kasey Kahne 4. Tony Stewart 5. Jimmie Johnson 6. Kevin Harvick 7. Kyle Busch 8. Carl Edwards 9. Matt Kenseth 10. Bobby Labonte Until I see those Chevrolets in action, I will withhold judgement. But I will say that the name on the windshield is a LOT smaller than I expected it to be. 902. Eric posted: 11.29.2012 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, Dale Earnhardt Jr. winning the most popular driver award shouldn't be a shock. He has won most popular driver award in NASCAR since 2003. If you thought Danica Patrick, there would be a problem. I know she won the Nationwide most popular driver, but that isn't a shock. She was considered a Nationwide driver this year, not a cup driver despite her cup starts this year. She declared herself to run for the Nationwide series title. The other thing with Danica is I don't think she really is as popular Dale Jr a first place. Indycar has a smaller fanbase than NASCAR does even when Danica was there. 903. David posted: 11.29.2012 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, that comment was made in extreme sarcasm. OF COURSE it is not surprising. 904. Schroeder51 posted: 11.29.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, you forgot that sarcasm doesn't exist on the Internet. Everything on the Internet is taken at face value as serious. Who else is marking their calendars for July 24th next year...? 905. David posted: 11.29.2012 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, you forgot that sarcasm doesn't exist on the Internet. Everything on the Internet is taken at face value as serious." HA! So true. 906. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.29.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Schroeder51, I marked it yesterday. In other sports... RG3 is going to kick the Giants @$$!!!! 907. 18fan posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can someone give me a quick refresher on how qualifying will work for the Daytona 500 this year in terms of who is locked in on speed other than the front row? 908. 44andJoe posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ASSUMING that it's going back fully to the clasic system: Positions 1-2: time Positions 3-30: Twins Positions 31-36: time Positions 37-43: provisionals There WAS a rumour awhile back though that the Twins might be going away due to lack of sponsorship, but Bud announced a deal to sponsor them back in February, so... 909. cjs3872 posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, it's probably going back to the pre-2005 rules, and if you're not familiar with that, here's how it goes. As always, the front row is locked into the Daytona 500. Then, if it goes to the exact procedure as before the exempt rule was introduced in 2005, the top 14 finishers from each qualifying race, not counting the front row starters, lock up positions 3-30. The transfer drivers from the first race line up on the inside column in rows 2-15, with the transfer drivers from the second qualifying race doing likewise on the oputside column for rows 2-15. With the top 30 in the line-up now established, since it will be the top 36 by times lining up, the next six positions (31-36) will revert back to qualifying speeds. After that, the next six positions (37-42) will be filled by the provisional starters, which are set by the previous year's owner point standings. Then the 43rd and last spot either goes to the most recent series champion not already in the field. And if there's no previous series champion that hasn't qualifed, then the 43rd and last spot goes back to the previous year's owner points. I presume that's how the starting grid for the 55th Daytona 500 will be set. But what I don't know is exactly how many cars will transfer directly from the qualifying races to the Daytona 500, and how that might effect the overall qualifying procedure for the Daytona 500. 910. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 11.30.2012 - 1:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It will be awesome to see the provisional system back. It will be less number juggling that I will have to do in my head while watching the qualifying sessions, lol. 911. Schroeder51 posted: 11.30.2012 - 2:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just for fun, as I've mentioned before, I went through all the races this year, (and watched a couple of them again, mainly because some of them were very dull and I couldn't really remember anything that happened in them). Now, I've mentioned before that I loved the old Goody's Headache Powder Award, an award given to a driver who ended up finishing lower than they could have or should have. So I've decided to give out honorary Schroeder51 Goody's Headache Powder Awards for each race of the season. Here's who I would have given it to for each race... Daytona 500: Jimmie Johnson Subway Fresh Fit 500: Marcos Ambrose Kobalt Tools 400: Brad Keselowski Food City 500: Jeff Gordon Auto Club 400: Jeff Gordon Goody's Fast Relief 500: Jeff Gordon Samsung Mobile 500: Brad Keselowski STP 400: Clint Bowyer Capital City 400 Presented By Virginia Is For Lovers: Carl Edwards Aaron's 499: Jimmie Johnson Bojangles' Southern 500: Jeff Gordon Coca Cola 600: Marcos Ambrose FedEx 400 Benefiting Autism Speaks 400: Kyle Busch Pocono 400: Kyle Busch Quicken Loans 400: Kyle Busch Toyota Save Mart 350: Jeff Gordon Quaker State 400: Tony Stewart Coke Zero 400: Greg Biffle Lenox Industrial Tools 301: Kyle Busch Crown Royal Presents The Curtiss Shaver 400: Matt Kenseth Pennsylvania 400: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. Finger Lakes 355 At The Glen: Kyle Busch Pure Michigan 400: Mark Martin Irwin Tools Night Race: Jeff Burton Advocare 500: Carl Edwards Federated Auto Parts 400: Kyle Busch GEICO 400: Jeff Gordon Sylvania 300: Kyle Busch AAA 400: Matt Kenseth Good Sam Roadside Assistance 500: Jamie McMurray Bank Of America 500: Regan Smith Hollywood Casino 400: Aric Almirola Tums Fast Relief 500: Denny Hamlin AAA Texas 500: Kasey Kahne Advocare 500: Martin Truex, Jr. and finally... Ford EcoBoost 400: Jimmie Johnson (for obvious reasons) I think for every race next year, I'll give out this, er, "award". 912. Anonymous posted: 11.30.2012 - 7:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Junior had to win the Most Pathetic Driver, that is the only way he gets to be on any stage every year. 913. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Childress is already saying he thinks next year will be difficult for Harvick. Considering how RC is usually full of bravado, lowlighted by his 2011 prediction that one of his cars would be the one to unseat then 5 time defending champ Jimmie Johnson, that is saying something. I thought those two would explode out of the gate next year just to shove it down everyone's throats, but now I am not so sure. 914. David posted: 11.30.2012 - 10:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim Davis has won the 2012 Championship "Tire Specialist" award. Wait a minute... 915. jabber1990 posted: 11.30.2012 - 11:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have an observation I noticed, I wonder if this is true with all sports or just NASCAR at the end of every championship this milenium there has been a big change either with the sport or politically 2000: last championship under president clinton 2001: the beginning of the end of Jeff Gordon as well as the last time a champion would be crowned after thanksgiving 2002: last Championship for Pontiac 2003: Last Championship under the "old" points 2004: Last Championship for Ford (to date) as well as the last Championship for Kurt Busch (both to date, and probably ever) 2005: Last Championship before Jimmie Johnson era 2006: Last year running one car style, as well as last season for NBC, and last season without Toyota 2007: Last Season under "old" Car (which was what? Gen 3?) 2008: Last season under president Bush 2009: Last Full Season with wing 2010: Last season of Jimmie Johnson era(to date) 2011: the Championship crew chief leaves team, so does primary sponsor 2012: Last championship for dodge, coincidentally also last season with dodge 916. Bronco posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MOOG Steering & Suspension Problem Solver of the Year Award: Steve Addington, crew chief for Tony Stewart #14 How Steve Addington won any kind of crew chief award this season is beyond me. 917. David posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2007: Last Season under "old" Car (which was what? Gen 3?)" Technically, the fifth generation of the NASCAR Sprint Cup car was all iterations of the COT, which lasted from 2007 to 2012. The fourth generation ended in 2007. Before that, I don't know. 918. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is the #14 team the only ones sponsored by MOOG? 919. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still think that the Most Popular Driver award should give fans two selections: Favorite driver (+) and least favorite driver (-). Drivers would receive a point for every + vote and lose a point for every - vote, with the driver who holds the most total points rewarded with the MPD award. This way, the driver who receives the award would have the highest average popularity among fans who voted, not be handed the award just because they have the largest fan club, like our Cup and Nationwide MPD's had this year. Plus, it would make the voting a little more interesting. As far as this Childress/Harvick situation, should we at least applaud Childress for admitting that he's screwing a driver over? With such recent events as letting his best young driver Clint Bowyer go without putting much effort into re-signing him last year, the fall Richmond race last year, setting Jeff Green up for failure by teaming him up with Harvick (whom Green hated), and the way Elliott Sadler's Nationwide team started to fall apart after he was told he wouldn't be back in 2013, at least Childress is coming out and basically saying "Hey, this guy who's been with me for 13 years isn't going to have a fun 2013 season." Childress is giving Jack Roush a run for his money as being the biggest active scumbag owner in NASCAR. Speaking of Bowyer, apparently he and Gordon haven't spoke since Phoenix in the NASCAR hauler, with the story saying that Clint won't even look at Jeff. I hate seeing two guys who used to be good friends stop speaking over something silly like this. I think it's silly for two guys to stop talking to each other over an incident in what was ultimately a game and let that transpire into life outside of racing. I don't really care whether they become friends again or not because I still think Clint deserved it, although I do agree with him when he said that he doesn't want to talk about Phoenix since I (and I think most of us) are tired of hearing about it from the NASCAR paparazzi, but I think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion, and the fact that they're not talking to each other only adds to that. It looks like NASCAR has its own little Cold War going on. 920. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How can anyone consider Steve Addington a problem solver when he couldn't solve the two biggest problems in NASCAR, Kurt and Kyle Busch? 921. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2012 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Childress is giving Jack Roush a run for his money as being the biggest active scumbag owner in NASCAR." Funny, when I read that I thought that sounded like something Jack would do. Those two are showing a lot of similarities. Of course the biggest difference is Jack has had great success with many drivers while RCR's record with drivers not named Dale Earnhardt leaves a lot to be desired. But you are right about his recent actions. Pretty damn disgraceful IMO. Worst of all, he is dismantling what he had (a fringe contender in Cup that could jump up every 3 or 4 years and somewhat keep pace with the big dogs plus the leftover emotional attachments from the Earnhardt dynasty) for his grandsons. Not doing everything he could do to keep talents like Clint and Harvick (like what Jack did to keep Carl) plus bastardizing "the legacy of the famed #3" (imagine that phrase in Marty Reid's voice for the full annoying effect) is pretty low. 922. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "plus bastardizing "the legacy of the famed #3" (imagine that phrase in Marty Reid's voice for the full annoying effect) is pretty low." And you know what else? In a lot of people's eyes, Austin Dillon in 2014 will become just the 3rd driver to drive and continue the legacy of the famed #3 car, joining such greats as Richard Childress and Dale Earnhardt. Nevermind the fact that Ricky Rudd drove that car for two years, Junior Johnson won 9 of his 50 races in the #3 in the early '60s, and the fact that Childress' name isn't synonymous with the #3 like Dale's is. What a shame that people today think of Dale as the guy who drove for Richard Childress, rather than thinking of Childress of the guy who happened to own the car that Dale drove. I'm not sure which team will be more disorganized in 2014, SHR or RCR with all the egos and lack of leadership involved with those teams. I think RCR will be worse off because they'll have less talent on the driver, owner, equipment, and business end of things. RCR's future doesn't look good at this point with its potential driver lineup featuring the explosive Kurt Busch, the invisible Paul Menard, and the overrated Austin Dillon. Add in "the guy who created Dale Earnhardt" as the owner and a declining engine program, and you got a team that's in worse shape than the rising BK Racing team. Plus, when Kurt takes over the #31, RCR might just promote their future Nationwide driver Brian Scott to the #78 Cup car. That should be fun... 923. cjs3872 posted: 11.30.2012 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes DSFF, like what he (Roush) did to Matt Kenseth shortly before and shortly after the Chase started by sabotaging his chances at the championship by having things fall off the car twice in four races. It's a little different at Childress because he has only one true horse in the Cup series in Harvick. He was speaking from his own experience and what he's seen over the decades in that he does't thik Harvick's going to have a very good year, and if he doesn't, Childress' 2013 season goes down the tube with him. And as I said in post #895, Roush was always wanted Carl Edwards to succeed over Matt Kenseth, which is why the best thing Kenseth could do was to leave. And he's always wanted Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. to succeed over Trevor Bayne, which is why Roush fought so hard to get Stenhouse his Nationwide titles while never even attempting to give Bayne any sponsorship for his second car. And I don't seriously think Roush wants to run Bayne for the Nationwide title next year, especially if he continues to no try to find Bayne sponsorship. I think Roush is basically being forced to run Bayne for the Nationwide Series title next year by Ford, who doesn't want Bayne to get away, like others did before him, and if given a choice, Roush would much rather run someone with sponsorshipfor the title, or split his ride among his Cup drivers, especially Stenhouse and Edwards. In the case of Bayne, I think Roush is being forced to do something he doesn't want to do, and I expect Bayne to be let go unless he's seriously in the hunt for the championship by mid-season if sponsorship doesn't arrive, and he may be let go even if he's in the hunt if no sponsorship arrives. I think that's why he apparently hired Travis Pastrana, to bring Pastrana's sponsorship and money right into that car. 924. David posted: 11.30.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nevermind the fact that Ricky Rudd drove that car for two years, Junior Johnson won 9 of his 50 races in the #3 in the early '60s, and the fact that Childress' name isn't synonymous with the #3 like Dale's is." Don't forget Paul Goldsmith. The fact is, Dale Earnhardt accounts for "only" 67 of the #3's 97 wins. "How can anyone consider Steve Addington a problem solver when he couldn't solve the two biggest problems in NASCAR, Kurt and Kyle Busch?" HAHAHAHA!! It seems to me that the Busch brothers are unsolvable problems. 925. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have a theory that Jack Roush prefers drivers that he discovered and are "home grown" talents. Roush gave Greg Biffle his first break in '98 in the Truck Series, and has remained loyal to him ever since. He also gave Carl Edwards his first break in '03 in the Truck Series and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. his first break in ARCA in '08. Perhaps one of the reasons why he hasn't been as loyal to Kenseth and Bayne is because he didn't discover them, and not only that, but they also got their first breaks driving for a different manufacturer. Kenseth got his first break driving Chevys for Robbie Reiser in the Busch Series for three years before he went to Cup with Roush. And Bayne got his first break driving Toyotas for MWR in the Nationwide Series in '09 and '10, and before that he drove Chevys for DEI in the K&N Pro Series East in '08. That's just a theory I came up with, but I think it's supported by his claim that Kenseth was "joining the dark side" when he announced he would be leaving Roush for JGR next year. I think Roush has a genuine dislike for the other manufacturers, and I think that transpires into how he treats his drivers based on whether they got their first break with Ford or with a different manufacturer like Chevy or Toyota. Add in the fact that he requested that both Trevor and David Ragan stay with Ford in 2012, even though they were both offered the #22 Dodge for Penske (who ironically is coming over to Ford next year anyways), and I think that he has a genuine dislike of the other manufacturers and prefers that his drivers stay with Ford, regardless of the quality of their rides. I think he's held a lot of careers back with this way of thinking and doing business as he's also done so to the likes of Erik Darnell, Colin Braun, and Danny O'Quinn by keeping them in his stable of drivers and letting them waste away instead of letting them seek a new ride and keep their careers afloat. Roush has ruined as many careers as he has created, and I applaud Kenseth for leaving while he still can and joining a team that actually cares about its drivers (maybe even a little too much). In some ways, Childress is becoming the new Jack Roush. But in other ways, he'll never match Roush's tactics of screwing over young drivers and letting their careers go to waste in the name of Ford. 926. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I love the fact that Richard Childress accounted for 0 of the #3's 97 wins and he gets remembered for driving that car more than Ricky Rudd, Junior Johnson, and Paul Goldsmith, each of whom won in the #3 car. Maybe it's because of all those interviews he gave and tried to leach off of the legacy that Dale was creating in the #3. It's a shame that he gets remembered for being the catalyst behind 6 of Dale's 7 championships while great crew chiefs Kirk Shelmerdine and Andy Petree are often only remembered because of their name being on the stat sheet for those 6 championships. 927. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Also, to change the subject a little bit, why are Peyton Manning and Tom Brady the only people considered qualified for the NFL MVP award this season? What about Matt Schaub or Matt Ryan for leading two non-high profile teams to 10-1 and 11-1 records, respectively? Or even Jay Cutler, who since 2011 has led the Bears to a 16-5 record when he plays, while the team is only 1-6 when he's injured? I'm sick of seeing Peyton and Brady having quiet seasons and being in the discussion for MVP just because they haven't caused their teams to lose. The MVP award should be given to the Most Valuable Player in the NFL, not to some guy who just happens to quarterback a decent team and hasn't made them any better this year. 928. cjs3872 posted: 11.30.2012 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David & Paul, not to mention other drivers that have won in car #3 over the years include Dick Rathmann, who won the pole for the 1958 Indianapolis 500, Fireball Roberts in the inaugural July race at Daytona, the Firecracker 250 in 1959, NASCAR Hall of Famer David Pearson, who scored his first three wins in car #3, Buck Baker, who scored his final victory in the 1964 Southern 500, and his son Buddy, who scored his first two wins, both at Charlotte in car #3, and Charlie Glotzbach, won won a caution-free race at Bristol in 1971, as well as being the driver picked to bring Chevrolet back in 1971. And much like Cotton Owens is as big a part of the legacy of car #6 in Cup series as Jack Roush is, the same can be said for Ray Fox. Fox has almost as big a legacy with the car #3 as Richard Childress does. After all, how many people actually know that David Pearson's first three wins were in car #3, with Fox as chief mechanic? 929. Eric posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, What you mentioned about Richard Childress is why I predicated Kevin will not be in the chase. I also wouldn't be shocked if Richard gives Kurt Busch and the 78 team better equipment than Kevin Harvick matter of fact. As far as Jeff Green, I don't believe that Richard set him up for failure. What happened with Jeff Green and Kevin Harvick really isn't really Richard's setting up Green to fail. I am saying that because Kevin Harvick was supposed to the be driver of the 30 cup car before Dale's death. Richard needed another driver to replace Kevin. Jeff was the person who agreed to it. The thing was in 2002 and 2003, RCR had the all headcase team at the time. He had Harvick, Robby Gordon, and Jeff Green. All 3 drivers were headcases and Kevin in that era was worse than he is now. Richard in 2001 can't pick Ryan Newman because he was with Penske under contract. I think Jimmie might have been a done deal with Hendrick. I don't there really was any free agents for the 30 car in terms of the nighttime race at Bristol in 2001. You could argue after the season Richard could have looked at Mike Wallace, but that is it. 930. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah cjs, but none of those Hall of Famers looked as dumb in a cowboy hat as Austin. When it comes to the category of "looking really friggin stupid in a cowboy hat" Austin flat out owns Dale and the rest. And yeah, the Busch Boys are the unsolvable problems. Getting them to act like adults is like trying to figure out the last digit of pi. Like trying to win solitare with 51 cards. 931. Eric posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul I don't think SHR will be as disorganized as RCR for 2014. While SHR will have 3 egos (Danica,Harvick, and Stewart), Stewart and will be getting a long fine. I don't like SHR for the long term though. SHR sounds like Robert Yates Racing to me. RCR has Austin Dillon and Kurt Busch. Kurt only will be 35 in 2013. I think Kurt will be fine over there for 2014 and 2015. When Ty comes along, all 3 drivers are under 40 besides Paul Menard. I think Austin and Ty could be good cup drivers. SHR worries me because it seems like SHR could be turning SHR by having 2 aging drivers. Tony Stewart would be 43 in 2014. You have wonder how many competitive years he has left as a driver. Kevin is going to be 39 in December of 2014. Kevin actually 2 years older than Ryan despite being the better driver of the 2. I don't know what the future holds for Danica, but she'll be struggling a lot 2014 like she'll be in 2013. The thing with young drivers would hurt SHR because Hendrick needs younger drivers also since both organizations have an alliance to each other. I question Danica will be Stewart Haas Racing after 2015 and in terms of sponsors also. We all know Jeff Gordon isn't getting any young at Hendrick and I can't picture him racing in 3 or 4 years from now. Dale Jr. is going to be 39 in October of 2013 and is a question on the track how he'll be due to concussions and his future after his Hendrick contract is up after 2017. Jimmie is a couple months older than Kevin Harvick. That means Stewart wouldn't be getting the first crack of the younger drivers as a result. That means Stewart will be picking young drivers that Hendrick doesn't have room for or pick up a free agent driver. 932. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope that when Jeff decides to hang it up, and I don't expect him to until after 2015 at the earliest, that HMS replaces him with either James Buescher or Parker Kligerman. This would give those two drivers, who I think have all the potential in the world to succeed in Cup given the right equipment, three years to develop in the Nationwide Series, while giving HMS three years to prepare for the inevitable driver change they'll have to make. I think Buescher is more likely at this point because he already drives for Turner, which is an HMS satellite team that operates in both the Truck and Nationwide Series (and has no plans to move to Cup). Kligerman would be my next pick because right now he's with KBM, a Toyota team in the Nationwide Series, but where's he going to go after this? He isn't likely to go to JGR because of the current driver lineup, plus Elliott Sadler is next in line for the potential 4th Cup car. And unless he were to replace Truex or get a spot in a 4th Cup car, I don't see him joining MWR either since I expect Brian Vickers to get the #55 when Mark either retires or leaves for a new team. I don't see a future for Kligerman with Toyota and I feel this is just a stopping ground for him to get a full-time Nationwide ride, and not a way for him to work his way up the Toyota ladder. So if somehow Buescher were to underachieve in the Nationwide Series (which I doubt he will, considering how well he did while part-time for a team that's off the pace from the Cup teams), or if something were to happen that wouldn't allow him to join HMS in Cup (such as a better offer from a different Cup team), then Kligerman would be my pick to take over the #24 in a few years. I just hope it isn't Chase Elliott, who is just the latest driver to be dubbed "the next Jeff Gordon". I'm not impressed by Chase from what I've seen out of him so far, especially since he isn't even the best 2nd generation driver out of his generation, as both Ryan Blaney and Corey LaJoie have outperformed him in lesser equipment in the K&N Series. 933. Talon64 posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, to change the subject a little bit, why are Peyton Manning and Tom Brady the only people considered qualified for the NFL MVP award this season? What about Matt Schaub or Matt Ryan for leading two non-high profile teams to 10-1 and 11-1 records, respectively? Or even Jay Cutler, who since 2011 has led the Bears to a 16-5 record when he plays, while the team is only 1-6 when he's injured? I'm sick of seeing Peyton and Brady having quiet seasons and being in the discussion for MVP just because they haven't caused their teams to lose. The MVP award should be given to the Most Valuable Player in the NFL, not to some guy who just happens to quarterback a decent team and hasn't made them any better this year." That's all true for Brady, but Peyton's turned around the Broncos from an 8-8 team last year to an 8-3 team through 11 games in 2012, thanks to him having a season that rivals any of his best in his career despite having to come back from his neck surgeries. That improvement's to be expected since the Broncos were stuck wity Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow last year. Nonetheless, I'd be shocked if Peyton doesn't win both MVP and Comeback Player of the Year. 934. Eric posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, The media doesn't like Matt Schaub and Matt Ryan for a reason in terms of MVP talk and I call them hypocrites as a result. The media doesn't respect the two teams. No one takes Falcons out national media as a real threat to go to the Super Bowl. Peter King even claims The New York Giants will be beat the Texan 45 to nothing since the Packers beaten the Texans soundly and the Packers their butts kicked by the Giants. The Falcons are partly not the respected because of the fact they got their butts kicked the playoffs. The thing is they lost to the teams in the playoffs that won the Superbowl. Payton Manning and Tom Brady have been media darlings for a very long time. Jay Cutler is never mentioned for MVP because he is hated by the media. The media has a lot over power when in comes the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the MVP voting. The fact is if you treat the media poorly as an NFL player, don't expect the media to help your Hall of Fame case or be picked for any awards that media has a say over. I am saying that because I remembered Sterling Sharpe as a Green Bay Packer. Terrell Davis went farther in Hall of Fame voting than Sterling Sharpe. When Sterling Sharpe played from 1988 to 1994, the only Wide Receiver better than him was Jerry Rice. When it came to career totals from 1988 to 1994 for Catches, Yards, and Touchdown catches, Sterling was ranked 2 or 3. Sharpe was 2nd in catches and Touchdown catches to Jerry Rice. Sharpe became an all pro Wide Receiver in his 2nd season in the NFL back in 1989 despite having Don Majkowski as his starting quarterback. Sterling didn't much reorganization by the voters partly because he was not media friendly as a NFL Player besides Wide Receivers have a hard time to get into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Terrell Davis also had a short career, but he went further in voting than Sterling Sharpe did. It is hard to believe the Sterling Sharpe was not media friendly as a player since he is part of the media now with him working for NFL Network. 935. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Ty will be a better Cup driver than Austin when he finally reaches Cup. He outperformed his brother in their respective Truck rookie seasons, and he even outran him in 2 of his 3 Truck starts in 2011, the year that Austin won the Truck title. Also, in his 3 Nationwide starts this season, Ty beat his brother at Indy and finished within 2 positions of him in each of the other 2 starts he made this year. In fact, Ty in 3 starts in RCR's 4th Nationwide car had just 3 less top three finishes than his brother had (without failing post-race inspection) in 33 starts in RCR's 2nd Nationwide car. I don't know how well Austin will do in Cup, although I think he'll be struggle for the first few years given the lack of leadership on both the driver's side and the owner's side of that team, but I do think that Ty will outperform his brother in Cup just as he has in both Truck and Nationwide so far. 936. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually like Jay Cutler and I find his press conferences highly entertaining because he's so different from the average NFL player in his mannerisms. Every time he answers a question, he has that "I would much rather be anywhere else but here" look on his face, which comes off in his answers to their questions. It might sound a little hypocritical for me to say that about Cutler since I have the opposite reaction to Kyle Busch's immature media interviews, but for whatever reason I get a kick out of Cutler and always look forward to his interviews, win or loss. I don't know how your guys' feelings towards teams in your division are like, but I can tell you that most Vikings fans like myself hate the Packers with a passion, but in a way pull for Da Bears and Lions to win when they're not playing against us (usually because historically, both of those teams were out of playoff contention). I shouldn't be pulling for Da Bears since they have about a 2 game lead in our division over us, but if it means keeping the Packers out of the division lead, I'm all for it. 937. Eric posted: 11.30.2012 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I am not shocked that most Viking fans hate the Packers guts, I know that first hand based on who I know off line. I don't think my Packers are Super Bowl bound. We have problems on our offensive line and not having a running game is hurting us. Our defense is better this year than last year, but we are not top notch defense though. I still think Rogers is well despite not having Jennings most of the season and a declining Donald Driver. I am a long time Packer Fan. When I was growing up the Bears and the Packers were more a rivalry than the Packer and the Vikings. My dad taught my younger brother and I that the Bears were the "bad guys" and this was back in the 1980's.The Bears and Packer Rivalry isn't as strong as it used to compare to the Packers against the Vikings. I thought Mike Ditka was going to having a heart attack in 1989 when the Bears lost the instant reply game to the Packers The only thing the Vikings I blame in the era I grew up in is the Herschel Walker trade and that should be expected since My packers lost to the Cowboys in the playoffs in 3 straight years. As Packer fan that is up there with the Packers drafting Terrell Buckley instead of Troy Vincent in 1992 and the infamous Tony Mandarich draft pick of 1989. That trade helped the cowboys win their 3 super bowls and prevented the Packers to go to 3 straight super bowls instead of back to back. The Vikings gm at the time of the Walker trade overrated his starting quarterback Wade Wilson. Your gm thought your gm thought they were only a running back away from a super bowl, but they really were a Quarterback and a running back away. The Vikings had a very good offensive line with 2 future hall of fame players, a very good tight end in Steve Jordon, one of the best Wide Receivers in Anthony Carter and a great defense. The Herschel Walker trade gave the Cowboys key players to their super bowl run in terms of draft picks including getting Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, and Darren Woodson. I only 3 straight 3 super bowls for the Packers because the fact is the only team that was capable of beating Green Bay in the NFC in 1996 Championship game was the cowboys. When the Packers in the playoffs in 1993 and 1994, those Packer teams were rebuilding and that meant we would have lost in the playoffs in the same round again to another team. The Packers of 1992 to 1994 we missing things that we had in 1995,and 1996. 938. NicoRosbergFan posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What about RG3? After he beats the Giants' @$$e$ Monday night, it'd be an injustice to not throw him in that discussion for turning the Redskins from a 3-13 or 4-12 team into a legitimate playoff contender. 939. joey2448 posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So anyone watching the NASCAR awards banquet on SPEED? Lots of fine women haha! I can't wait for the awkward moments that are sure to happen when a celebrity (and probably not much of a NASCAR follower) like Howie Mandel is hosting the ceremony. 940. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, the Redskins finished 5-11 in 2011 and are currently 5-6 this year. As impressive RG3 has been this year, I think the fact that his team is below .500 with five games to go disqualifies him from the running for MVP. That isn't to say that he isn't doing a good job as he is among the front runners for Rookie of the Year, but I don't think he's done enough to help his team to be a contender for MVP this season. 941. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I've heard from people that are Packer fans that you guys consider Da Bears to be your biggest rival, which is probably due to the history and age of those respective teams that dates back to the 1920s. And similar to your situation, I grew up being taught that the Packers were not necessarily the bad guys, but they were the team that we had to beat if we wanted to win the division. With Da Bears being pretty awful in the '90s and very inconsistent in the '00s, and the Lions being, well...The Bungles of the '00s, our main competition were the Packers and if we could beat them then we would have a great shot at winning the division. As ironic as this may sound, as much as I dislike the Packers, or more specifically arrogant Packer fans (not that I'm saying you're one of them), but the Lombardi Packers from the '60s are perhaps my all-time favorite sports team to learn about and watch on film. The way that Lombardi coached his team and the leadership and brotherhood that those players had is pretty astounding, not to mention the great talents on those teams. DSFF has mentioned several times how underrated of a player that Bart Starr was, and I completely agree with him on that one. I'm so glad that NFL Network listed Bart as being the #1 most underrated player of all-time on their "Top 10 Underrated Players" list. Some of the analysts were confused by that selection because he won the first two Super Bowls, along with three NFL Championships, but is often forgotten because he was seen as a part in the "Packer Machine", and wasn't regarded as anything special. I think it's a real shame that one of the greatest quarterbacks and leaders in pro football history doesn't get the recognition he deserves. Maybe if he sought out attention like Brady or Manning we would remember him. Ugh... 942. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone else get a kick out of Brad's reaction to Howie Mandel when he asked him to spell his name, and when Brad pronounced "Keselowski" Mandel said "No, I meant your first name"? Haha! Priceless. 943. cjs3872 posted: 11.30.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, a major reason why the national media are dissing the now 11-1 Atlanta Falcons and the 10-1 Houston Texana has to do with won thing. Neither of them are "name franchises". Trust me, if it were the Giants, Redskins, Cowboys, Bears, Steelers, Packers, Patriots, Raiders, or Broncos with that record, everyone would be boasting about them. But because it's the Atlanta Falcons and Houston Texans who have their conference's best records, everyone is looking for reasons to look past them. In a way, it reminds me of 1981, when the San Francisco 49ers and Cincinnati Bengals were their conference's best teams. Everyone was looking for a way to look past them, looking toward the Dallas Cowboys and San Diego Chargers, the NFL's two top glamour teams at the time. Neither the 49ers or Bengals had even seen the post-season for some time, while everyone wanted to see a Cowboys-Chargers Super Bowl that season, but the 49ers and Bengals were clearly their conference's best teams, each beating their conference's glamour teams twice in getting to their first Super Bowl. And Paul, with so many of the NFC fringe playoff contenders struggling for that final playoff spot, don't be suprised if the Redskins rally to take it behind Robert Griffin III. And last week, in a "caught in the moment" event, 2-time Super Bowl winning coach Jimmy Johnson declared that he thought Griffin was the NFL's MVP this year. Of course, if you want to make that argument, Colts' rookie QB Andrew Luck may get some MVP votes for leading the Colts back to where we've grown accustomed to seeing them, right up among the playoff elite. You said that the Redskins might not make the playoffs, I remember several years ago they were in a similar predicament after an OT loss against San Diego at home, and then preceeded to win their final six regular season games, plus one more in the playoffs. If they beat the Giants this Monday night, I actually make them one of the favorites to capture that final playoff spot in the NFC. And DSFF, I was responding more to the names Paul and David mentioned as past winners in the #3 car, and bringing up those great names. After all, with a roster of winners that include the likes of Pearson, both Buck and Buddy Baker, Dick Rathmann, Paul Goldsmith, Fireball Roberts, Ricky Rudd, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., and Junior Johnson all winning in it over the years, the #3 car may have had more great drivers win in it than any other car number in NASCAR history, except maybe the Wood Brothers' #21 car, and both Pearson and Buddy Baker won in that, as well, and Ricky Rudd almost did. 944. murb posted: 11.30.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, so last week I gave out my full 2013 Predictions list. This week, since the Nascar Awards Week thing is going on, I'd like to give out my own awards for the 2012 season. Here there are. Driver of the Year: Brad Keselowski (It's pretty obvious as to why. He made the jump and became a first time Cup champion. Not only that, but he was a full on factor all year, he co-led the Cup Series in wins, and he would have won the title anyway even without the Chase. DOTY, no doubt.) Crew Chief of the Year: Paul Wolfe (I have no idea what Moog was thinking giving Steve Addington the "problem solver" award. Because pretty clearly, Wolfe was the best crew chief this year.) Owner of the Year: Roger Penske (Again, pretty obvious. I also want to use this space to once again acknowledge the fact the Penske still kept his team together even though they were in a lameduck situation with their manufacturer.) Underdog of the Year: Regan Smith (Gets canned from Furniture Row, gets a fantastic opportunity to sub for Jr in Cup, does awesome, gets a full time NNS ride with JRM, wins at Homestead in his first start for JRM. Enough said.) Jerk of the Year: Danica Patrick (She caused way too many headaches this year. Some of the best highlights include her ridiculous feud with Sam Hornish, her completely dumping Reed Sorenson in the NNS race at Indy, and her trying to wreck Landon Cassill at Kansas but instead wrecking herself and then getting on the mic and talking about how fair she races. Have fun next year, little lady. Because it will be one, long, grueling, frustrating, damn near team obliterating season. You're gonna learn first hand what the Cup Series is all about.) Invisible Man of the Year: Carl Edwards (Carl followed up his 2011 runner up finish with one of the most invisible seasons in the history of racing. Fortunately for him though, he should be Roush's top priority in 2013, and with Jimmy Fenning on the box, he should get back to victory lane pretty quick and regularly.) Most Outrageous Busch Brother Moment of the Year: Kurt's "Beat The Shit Out Of You" rant to Bob Pockrass at Dover (Kyle really didn't have any this year, and this moment was probably on top of Kurt's list, along with his Darlington pit road fight with Newman's crew.) Feud of the Year: Clint Bowyer vs Jeff Gordon (It created over 800 comments on the Phoenix page. So I think most everyone would agree.) Rivalry of the Year: Brad Keselowski and the 2 team vs Jimmie Johnson and the 48 team (This is different from feud of the year. To me, a rivalry is when two combatants straight up compete hard with each other all year for the big prize, and the 2 and 48 certainly did that.) Finish of the Year: Brad vs Marcos vs Kyle vs oil at Watkins Glen (Go back and watch it.) Race of the Year: Bristol Night Race (It really was fantastic. A lot of people weren't sure how Bruton's second remodeling job would turn out, but as far as action packed good old fashioned hardcore racing went, this race took the cake for 2012.) 945. joey2448 posted: 11.30.2012 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I definitely agree with your "finish of the year" and your "race of the year" nominations. 946. DaleSrFanForever posted: 11.30.2012 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt, Pearson, Junior Johnson, and FIREBALL! Just retire the #3. The NFL MVP will be either Brady or Manning. I hate it with an extreme passion, but the media loves those two. They have a combined four Super Bowl rings (or as Joe Montana calls it, my total alone) and do all the little fundamental things perfectly that people like Ron Jaworski literally drool over on national TV (ironically they also loved pre cell phone dong pic Favre for the exact opposite reason). My guess is they give it to Brady so he will just have one less than Peyton. Then they can spend the playoffs once again with the ridiculous angle of "if the Pats or Broncos win the Super Bowl, then the winning QB clinches best ever status" only for the Lombardi trophy to ultimately be lifted by Big Ben or Eli again (it would be their third, where would that rank them historically?), Aaron Rodgers (leading to even more Aaron Rodgers commercials), or Colin Kaepernick (he has the Niners so pumped up, Randy Freaking Moss is throwing blocks for him, don't rule them out running the table in the playoffs). The truth is, of the Super Bowl era QBs (which I don't coun Starr as a part of, the Super Bowl showed up too late in his career even though he won the first two) Joe Cool is clearly the best. Let him play in the era of not being able to breathe on the QB, not being able to level receivers going over the middle, and not being able to breathe on receivers running their routes, and he would make Brady and Manning look sick. Especially in the playoffs, where Joe truly shined. Hell, Peyton usually looks sick in the playoffs anyways (no QB with a losing playoffs record can be the best ever, especially with so many home losses), and Brady hasn't looked good in the playoffs since the '04 AFC title game in Pittsburgh going against rookie Big Ben. His third Super Bowl win was sloppy as hell and has looked uncomfortable on the big stage ever since, especially against those ferocious Giants defenses. 947. Paul posted: 11.30.2012 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I lost all respect for Brady in a game against the Ravens in '09 when an opposing player fell to the ground and just grazed against his knee, and he looked directly at the referee and pointed (tattled) on the opposing player and pressured the ref into giving the Ravens a 15-yard penalty for "roughing the passer". Some of these new rules are complete jokes, but Brady looked like a complete wimp by reacting the way he did. He loses out on "The Greatest Quarterback of All-Time" debate simply because of his metrosexual look and diva personality, and so does Peyton since Brady owns him head-to-head. I'm so glad that you mentioned Eli and Big Ben, both of whom are never rated high enough. I have mixed emotions about Ben's past off-the-field actions, but looking past that, he is my kind of quarterback. He's big and strong, tough as nails, always finds the open receiver, knows how to scramble, and most importantly, knows how to win by putting the team on his back. If not for the Steelers defense holding the team back this year (never thought I would say that), I think Ben would be much higher on the MVP radar list, especially after seeing the team struggle the past two weeks when he's been hurt. If I had my choice of quarterbacks in the league to start a franchise with, I would take Big Ben over everybody else. And it also appears that Eli has the clutch gene that his older brother lacks, especially when it comes to playoff time. His proclamation of being an elite quarterback prior to the 2011 season may have been the greatest guarantee since Broadway Joe's Super Bowl III guarantee, and I think his performance last season, which culminated with his 2nd Super Bowl victory...and being named MVP...against Tom Brady and the Patriots. Peyton's record against Brady is 3-7 in the regular season and 1-2 in the playoffs, including losing to Brady in Brady's first career start in week 3 of 2001, and his record against Brady would have been 2-8 had Belichick not unsuccessfully gone for it on 4th and 2 in their '09 meeting. Eli on the other hand is 1-1 against Brady in the regular season and 2-0 in the playoffs, both of which occurred in the Super Bowl. And his only loss came in the '07 finale in a game where the whole nation was watching to see if the Patriots could go 16-0 by beating a rocky Giants team that was given no shot at winning, and the game went down to the wire. Although they lost by 3 points, I picked them to beat the Patriots in the Super Bowl because I knew that they had only improved since that week 17 meeting, which they did. And the final drive in that game only proved that Eli does in fact have the clutch gene. I don't care how rocky a regular season Eli has, because he has proven to be a clutch performer that can get the job done when the money is on the line. As the old saying goes, big-time players make big-time plays in big-time games, and both Eli and Big Ben fit that description of a big-time player. I give Ben the edge over Eli because he is capable of playing at a high level throughout the regular and post season, while Eli usually saves his best for the big-time games. 948. 18fan posted: 11.30.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, Eli (and the Giants as a team) seem to play very shaky all throughout the regular season and squeak into the playoffs and then become a great team and win the Super Bowl. That is what they did in both of their Super Bowl winning seasons in which they beat the Patriots (who are by far my least favorite team). I've always thought that Ben was underrated as a QB and he is my favorite QB in the league right now. 949. David posted: 11.30.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David & Paul, not to mention other drivers that have won in car #3 over the years include Dick Rathmann, who won the pole for the 1958 Indianapolis 500, Fireball Roberts in the inaugural July race at Daytona, the Firecracker 250 in 1959, NASCAR Hall of Famer David Pearson, who scored his first three wins in car #3, Buck Baker, who scored his final victory in the 1964 Southern 500, and his son Buddy, who scored his first two wins, both at Charlotte in car #3, and Charlie Glotzbach, won won a caution-free race at Bristol in 1971, as well as being the driver picked to bring Chevrolet back in 1971. And much like Cotton Owens is as big a part of the legacy of car #6 in Cup series as Jack Roush is, the same can be said for Ray Fox. Fox has almost as big a legacy with the car #3 as Richard Childress does. After all, how many people actually know that David Pearson's first three wins were in car #3, with Fox as chief mechanic?" I knew about all of those, except Rathmann and possibly the Bakers. "And yeah, the Busch Boys are the unsolvable problems. Getting them to act like adults is like trying to figure out the last digit of pi. Like trying to win solitare with 51 cards." Or: - Like trying to run a race without a pit crew. - Like trying to find the corner on a circle. - Like trying to raise the Titanic with a pair of tweezers. - Like trying to fix the country's economy. - Like trying to get Lucy Ricardo to stop scheming. - Like trying to replace Brian France and his henchmen. Pi: 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803... All of those digits from memory. 950. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) From memory? Damn, respect dude. Respect. I've been disgusted with Ben's off field behavior, but it appears after his recent rendevous in a college bar bathroom which may or may not have been consentual, Ben appears to have made a serious, and most important, quiet attempt to right his life. You don't hear much about it, he isn't doing the "look at me, I'm fixing my life" attention grab most other disgraced stars do. So we will see. But as a QB, I have a ton of respect for him. A big reason I have jumped all over the Colin Kaepernick bandwagon is that he reminds me of a smaller Ben. He moves around in the pocket, extends plays, has a laser arm, and can run when the time is right. Ben's playoff performances have been debated, mainly because he seems to save his worst performances for the Super Bowl. He is usually rock solid leading to the big game, then pedestrian once there (the game winning drive against the Cards is the major exception). But overall he is the QB I would want on my team provided he could stay healthier. Eli is quite simply a playoff specialist. He won't wow you in the regular season, but will be solid for the most part although has a disturbing tendancy to play to his competition, then the playoffs hit and he will make every play that needs to be made (basically the opposite of his brother). Rodgers has been exceptional in the playoffs with the exception of last year's loss against the Giants at Lambeau. But that defense makes QBs look bad in the post season (see Brady, Tom). His other playoff loss was the infamous 51-45 loss in Arizona. Hardly his fault. Brady seems to have lost the playoff magic he had to start with. In his first two playoff runs, he looked like Montana. It was looking that way until that Super Bowl against the Eagles. He better be glad the other QB was McNabb. Since then, with the exception of a divisional win over a really good Chargers team in San Diego, he has looked pedestrian, with some Manning-esque home losses, a very ugly conference title win over the Ravens last year, and two Super Bowls getting manhandled by the Giants. I have made my feeling about Peyton very clear. Absolutely dazzling in the regular season, mediocre in the playoffs. Remove the two blowouts about 10 years ago in consecutive playoffs against the (irony alert) Broncos and Jake Plummer and he truthfully has never had a really good playoff game with the possible exception of the '06 AFC title game. Wheras Joe Cool had an entire Top 10 list devoted to his most memorable games, 7 of which were either playoff games or college bowl games played in an icestorm (his first Super Bowl win didn't even make the cut), Peyton has no real memorable playoff performances or moments. Starr had the game winning drive in the Ice Bowl with the ambient temperature at -15 degrees which ended with a QB sneak. Unitas had the first ever overtime game at Yankee Stadium and game winning drive. Brady has the two Super Bowl game winning FG drives. Eli has the two Super Bowl TD game winning drives. Elway has "The Drive". Ben has the drive against Arizona. Montana has (take your pick). To me, Peyton is nowhere close to best ever discussion. 951. Paul posted: 12.01.2012 - 1:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Patriots got lucky in the '07 AFC Championship Game because Philip Rivers elected to play on a torn ACL, just a few days removed from secret surgery, even though backup QB Billy Volek played very well the week before and led the Chargers to a win in the Divisional Playoffs against...yep, you guessed it, Peyton Manning (which I think only hurts Peyton's legacy even more). Plus it didn't help that at one point in the game Mike Vrabel took a kick at Rivers' injured knee that Ndamaukong Suh wouldn't be able to give an excuse for. Of course, that kick was largely ignored because the main focus was whether the Patriots could go 18-0 and make the Super Bowl, and the Patriots just coasted their way past a Chargers team with a sketchy defense and a wounded leader. And if you go back the year before in the '06 Divisional Playoffs, the Patriots got extremely lucky in that game as well. Chargers safety Marlon McCree intercepted Brady late in the game, which would have ended the game except for the fact that Troy Brown stripped him of the ball and ex-Chargers wide receiver Reche Caldwell recovered the fumble. Had McCree just fallen to the ground, the Chargers go on to win and Brady has a "Brett Favre mark" on his playoff record. And in a sad taste of irony, NFL Films had Marty Schottenheimer mic'd up for that game and he actually told McCree before the game that if he were to intercept the ball near the end of the game, he should fall down and protect the football. And like a typical defensive back, McCree tried to do his own thing and failed miserably. Who knows, maybe if they hadn't fumbled the ball, Peyton doesn't beat Rivers the next week and to this day still doesn't have a Super Bowl ring, officially leaving him out of the running for greatest quarterback of all-time. Heck, he couldn't beat backup Billy Volek in '07 when he had the best defensive player in the league on his side in Bob Sanders, so there's a great chance that he would have lost to the Chargers in '06 with a bad defense and against a Pro Bowl quarterback and the reigning league MVP Ladainian Tomlinson. I think there's a lot of evidence in those two playoff years that proves how overrated Brady and Peyton really are. If they couldn't truly beat Philip Rivers (who I do like, but I wouldn't categorize him as an elite quarterback) head-on at full strength, and if Brady couldn't beat a terrible Colts defense in '06 or "Peyton's brother" (nowadays I would call Peyton "Eli's brother") in two Super Bowls, how can either one of them be called the greatest quarterback of all-time? I'm not sure if I would call Montana the greatest of all-time (certainly in the top three with Johnny U and Otto Graham), but there's no way that he isn't higher than both Brady and Peyton. I try not to grade quarterbacks based on their Super Bowl rings, but like you said, Joe Cool has as many rings as Brady and Peyton have combined. And if you count the seasons when they should have won ('04 and '09 for Peyton, '07, '10, and '11 for Brady), they actually have more "coming up short seasons" than Joe Cool. Aside from the '90 NFC Championship Game (and that's sort of stretching it because that Giants defense was TOUGH), I don't think Joe Cool ever came up short in a big game that he should have won. Again, just another reason why they'll always be in Montana's shadow, regardless of what the "experts" tell you. Also DSFF, did you ever see the "Brady 6" documentary? Tom Brady, Sr. is just so in love with his son's ability that it actually makes me cringe watching him speak. It's one thing to be a fan and support your kid as they progress in sports like my dad was, but it's another thing to have this ego through your kid's abilities and have this sense of entitlement and act like your kid is the greatest thing to ever come along, and how dare he have to earn his starting job. I was just waiting for him to say in reference to Brady's high school and college coaches "Don't you people know who this is? This is my son, Tom Brady, and he is the greatest quarterback who has ever lived," even before he had even done anything at that level of football. Good grief, I though Brady had an ego, as seen when he was insulted that Plaxico Burress projected that the Giants would beat the Patriots by a score of "ONLY" 21-17 (that turned out to be a high estimate), but by God his father takes the cake in this category. I'd be annoyed if my dad was as in love with my playing ability as Tom Brady, Sr. is to his son. 952. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 3:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, Montana also had a bad game for most of the 1983 NFC Championship in Washington, but that was against the greatest of Joe Gibbs' teams, so I'll give him a pass on that one. As for yoursnd DSFF's comments about the Patriots win in the 2006 AFC Divisional Playoff in San Diego, you do remember that Marty Schottenheimer was the head coach then? Knowing that, there was no way the Patriots weren't going to win that game. And the reason the Patriots won the 2007 AFC Championship Game wasn't the fact that Philip Rivers played on two knees with torn ligaments that have now basically crippled him as an NFL QB, but rather because LaDainian Tomlinson couldn't play, because where he could have been of the most use, he was unavailable. But playing in that game has physically affected Rivers so much that I think the Chargers need to get rid of this one-time top-notch QB, because he's basically crippled and has a bad arm and a quirky delivery to boot. If they get a chance, they need to draft another QB, because I think Rivers is about done as a QB that can win. What's happened to him over the last two years is kind-of sad to watch. Basically, his career has taken the exact same path as Bernie Kosar's did. And Kosar, like Rivers, had a quirky delivery. But even Kosar had some great playoff performances (the double overtime game vs. the Jets in the '86 playoffs and the 1987 AFC Championship Game come to mind), but in his career, I can't think of one good playoff game that Rivers had. And I also disagree with your sayng Tom Brady is overrated. I rank him as the fourth-greatest QB of all-time behind only Joe Montana, John Unitas, and John Elway. Peyton Manning, on the other hand, has never really gotten it done in the post-season, except for that one game against the Patriots in the 2006 AFC Championship Game, and circumstances allowed the Colts offense to be on the field for 29 out of 30 plays in the second and third quarters of that game, helping them over come that 21-3 deficit that Manning helped them get into.The only reason Brady has only three Super Bowl titles, instead of four or five is that horrendous defense he's had the last six or seven years. How many times in the last six or seven years have we seen that defense just get run and passed over at will when it counted most? 953. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.01.2012 - 4:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Was I the only person annoyed that they gave Eli Manning the MVP in last year's Super bowl when he played pathetic and the defense won the game? 954. David posted: 12.01.2012 - 11:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "From memory? Damn, respect dude. Respect." Oh, this is nothing. Once I knew 114 digits. 955. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, now you know why I call you this site's resident mathematician. That's even more impressive than being able to post the point standings based on my weighted point system based on more points for the top finishers. Which reminds me, would Brad Keselowski have won the championship under my system, because using NASCAR's official system, he would have won it both in the Chase format and the non-Chase format. I'm not sure he would have. And by the way, expect some more blog posts in the coming few weeks on the greatest drivers in Cup series history, as I'll be counting down the top 40 drivers in Cup series history, though I'm not sure yet whether I'll be doing it in groups of five or ten. 956. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.01.2012 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, do ten; otherwise, it will get annoying to have 8 separate posts. I am quite the mathematician myself (star pupil in Differential Equations), but I feel stupid compared to David. 957. David posted: 12.01.2012 - 12:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, I don't even have to calculate the Chase standings to determine the champion under your system, because Keselowski was leading by 7 points going into the final race. Using your system and the NASCAR seeding format, the standings would look like this: 1. Brad Keselowski - 2463 2. Jimmie Johnson - 2436 3. Clint Bowyer - 2417 4. Kasey Kahne - 2395 5. Denny Hamlin - 2372 6. Matt Kenseth - 2361 7. Jeff Gordon - 2359 8. Greg Biffle - 2359 (Jeff wins the tiebreaker by second-place finishes, 4-0) 9. Kevin Harvick - 2340 10. Tony Stewart - 2334 11. Martin Truex, Jr. - 2325 12. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 2253 In a moment, I will post the non-Chase standings. 958. David posted: 12.01.2012 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As it turns out, you were right cjs. 1. Jimmie Johnson - 1459 2. Brad Keselowski - 1444 3. Greg Biffle - 1389 4. Matt Kenseth - 1377 5. Clint Bowyer - 1368 6. Denny Hamlin - 1351 7. Kyle Busch - 1302 8. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 1279 9. Kasey Kahne - 1278 10. Martin Truex, Jr. - 1269 11. Tony Stewart - 1257 12. Kevin Harvick - 1242 959. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fair enough, NicoRosbergFan. I was figuring on ten per post, because there are not only going to be driver rankings, but also stats and other significant accomplishments. That's why I'm going to split it up in the first place. Of course, if it weren't for you, I probably still would not know how to become a blogger on this site and you'd never get to see any of my listings in full, so I can't thank you enough, because you're the one that showed me how to become a blogger here. I'll also be doing the same thing on the big races, such as the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, Southern 500, and Indianapolis 500. And around New Year's, I'll be posting my predictions, both in a blog and on this comments page. The one bad thing about the blog posts is that they usually only last about a week. 960. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought so David, because Brad was wildly inconsistent during the first 10-15 races of the year, while Jimmie was a front runner all year, and had finished every race without anything major happening except the two at Daytona and Talladega until the final two races. And the non-Chase points you posted using my system is a better representation of how the field stacked up throughout the season. Now you know why I dislike the Chase so much. 961. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 114? I thought I was a numbers wizard. Big time respect. 962. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.01.2012 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here we go... time for an early prediction... Hendrick Motorsports/Stewart-Haas/Ganassi will win... less than 10 Cup races in 2013... and here's why: 1) Danica... There will be such desperation to keep her in the field each week that Hendrick will sacrifice the success of Stewart-Haas as a whole to keep her ship from sinking 2) Kasey Kahne... Kahne is good... too good, and that will keep Chad from being able to focus on the 48's success because he will be desperate to spite the 5 team much as what happened last year after Jeff 's team was flung from the shop 3) Ganassi... The addition of Chip Ganassi Racing will be too much because Ganassi will expect top-flight engines in his bottom-flight cars 4) Chad... Jeff, Kasey, and Dale (although I don't know with the concussion, he usually bounces back well from injuries) proved this year that when on even footing, they are BETTER than Jimmie, and Chad has shown in the past that he $#!*$ bricks when other Hendrick cars are better than his and will do anything... anything to keep that from happening. 5) Regan Smith... this sounds weird, but I think this will have an effect. Regan showed in just one race that he can compete for the title already, and Hendrick is the kind to make that effort. That will mean money has to be shifted to the 5 NNS team from somewhere, and, with a $.02 budget in that car (with about $40000000 in the 7, exaggerating of course), that money must come from somewhere 963. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not all that fond of Brad's 2013 scheme. Was hoping they'd ccontinue the blue and gold combo I have grown to like a lot (those Torinos of the late 60's were especially sweet). Oh well, I'll still pull for him the same. 964. David posted: 12.01.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You're going to get a lot of hardware in your life, but none will be more special than your first championship ring.'' -Brian France to Brad Keselowski Just shut up, Brian, and let Brad be the judge of how special his ring will be. After all, Brad is still a bachelor, and I'd say getting married is pretty special. 965. Paul posted: 12.01.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I made a lengthy post responding to cjs from post 952, but it hasn't come up yet. Brad's 2013 paint scheme is pretty awful. I don't understand why they even put the glass of beer on the sides if they're not going to have the beer flow from the bottle to the glass. They might as well have just scrapped the glass and just left the car in dark blue, similar to Rusty's '03-'05 paint scheme. Or at least put the glass on the hood and hope a driver sees it in their rear view mirror as Brad approaches them and gets distracted. That's a great point about Regan's Nationwide team, NicoRosbergFan. HMS already put a lot of money into that team for Homestead, and since they won that race and now look to have a shot at the Nationwide title with a capable driver in Regan Smith, it wouldn't surprise me if they put some extra effort into that team for next season. The past three seasons, HMS didn't put much funding into the JRM Nationwide program because of the drivers involved. But now that they have a very good driver in Regan Smith, they might start to fund that team now that they have a shot at a title. They did so in '08 and '09 when Brad Keselowski was driving for JRM, and they went on to win the Cup title and had 3 drivers make the Chase in both years, so I don't think funding JRM's Nationwide program is going to have much of an effect on their Cup program. I predict EGR will do better than Phoenix Racing did as HMS' #2 satellite team because they have better resources. I don't expect much from them, maybe a road course win from Montoya or a restrictor plate win from McMurray at best, but I think they have too many problems internally to do a 180 just because they're switching engine shops. 966. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Jeff Gordon has proven that, when on even terms, that he's at least as good as Jimmie is , if not better. In 2004, he had more wins prior to the Chase than Jimmie did, and in 2007 he had a point lead of about 2.5 races on everyone that the Chase not only erased, but actually put Jeff behind Jimmie. And let's not forget that Jeff actually won more races than Jimmie did in 2011. Jeff won three times that year, while Jimmie only won twice. And when they finish, 1-2, Jeff is the one that wins more often than not. But I disagree with your assessment on the others at Hendrick being on Jimmie's level, because they're not. Dale, Jr. was once on that level, but he dropped off in 2005, and Kasey has never been an elite driver, except for the high-speed tracks. Put him on a short track, road course, or a plate track, and he's nowhere near Jeff's or Jimmie's level. And speaking of the plate races, ever notice that since Jeff hasn't been a consistent challenger, that Hendrick Motorsports not rarely been a factor, as a group. I also noticed this in 2003-'04. When Jimmie was the team's top plate race performer, they couldn't win on those tracks, but as soon as Gordon came back in 2004 and became their lead driver in the plate races again, they started winning, because as Dave Marr once said at the U.S. Open about Jack Nicklaus, in effect, representing the U.S. when international players were winning majors in 1979-'80, Marr said "I think they sent the main man out this week". Well, when Gordon became Hendrick's top plate performer again in the 2004 season, beginning in the Talladega spring race that year, it was like Hendrick sent out their main man to topple the DEI plate dominance, which he did, almost single-handedly, winning four out of five at one point. And Dale Earnhardt, Jr. has not won a plate race since then. Point proven. I believe when Jeff Gordon becomes Hendrick's top plate driver again, we'll start seeing HMS winning plate races again, but I don't think they'll start winning plate races until that happens. Jimmie Johnoson's track record at those races is not very good, and Kasey Kahne's in even worse, and Dale Jr. has not been the factor everyone thought he'd be since he joined Hendrick Motorsports. And I think that's also true regarding the road course races. I think Hendrick will start being a front runner in those races once Gordon returns to form, which I think may happen in the next year or two. And we've seen signs of that happening over the last couple of years, but they haven'tm put a full race together on a road course. If they do, I think we'll see the #24 back in victory lane at Sonoma in the next three years. 967. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.01.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kahne actually performed quite admirably at the short tracks this year... Road courses are a skill that some just never come by (Dale Earnhardt, Bobby Isaac, Bill Elliott), but that doesn't prevent them from being talented oval drivers. I just think that road course drivers are more talented than oval-only drivers. Jeff Gordon at Sonoma 2013 or 2014 or never is my guess. Skill-wise Jeff is in the best road-racing shape of his life, but he has only 75% at Sonoma, and -37% luck at Watkins Glen. Yes, Jeff has so little luck there that his luck is negative there. 968. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nico, one other thing to add to your post which I agree with. I think the 48 is gonna have a rough year. The way that team is built, and what has happened over the last 7 seasons, I don't think they can have a mediocre season again like they did in '11 (by their standards). I see them either dominating or having a (relatively) bad year. I think it will be bad. They had two heartbreaking losses in '04 and '05 then came back to win the next 5. But they are in a different place now. After being stared down by the new upstart, that has to be an ego blow. I don't think Chad will be able to stand it and go overboard trying to blow everyone out of the water in '13 leading to him quickly wearing his team out, wearing HMS out, and most importantly wearing Jimmie out. At that point he will be reassigned. I expect a transitional period for the 48, but I have felt that Jimmie was the biggest key to that team's success (other than the fact it is a HMS time, they have been head and shoulders above the rest for the last 17 years) and he will have another successful run without Chad, lots of wins but not the outright domination, like Gordon '00-present. 969. Paul posted: 12.01.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I think Jeff is already the top restrictor plate performer at HMS because of what he accomplished this year on the plate tracks. He was running in the top ten in the Daytona 500 before blowing his motor, won the pole at Talladega in the spring, had a top three car in the Firecracker 400 (the best non-Roush car), and was among the few that could successfully tandem draft on the outside line in the fall Talladega race when he hooked up with Junior at several points in the race and went on to finish 2nd. Of course, Jamie "Roadblock" McMurray prevented Jeff and Junior from leading the field in the fall race. But that being said, despite the inefficiencies that the HMS cars had on the plate tracks this year with Kasey being invisible as always, Jimmie finding a way to get knocked out of the race, and Junior being typical post-2004 Junior on the plate tracks, I think Jeff was the best plate driver from the HMS stable. Their cars struggled in the first three plate races with the Fords being head-and-shoulders above everybody else due to the advantage they had with their cooling system, but Jeff was the only HMS driver who truly stood out in the plate races, most significantly in the fall race when he was the only one trying to get to the front. If HMS puts more added effort into their plate program this offseason, and considering how well they have been historically at adapting to new car designs, I believe Jeff will stand out on the plate tracks and be a threat to win in each of them. I just hope that the new car is better fit for the plate tracks than the 2012 cars were. The Talladega races were alright, but the Daytona races were just awful because the outside line just wouldn't work, and so they were largely "follow the leader" races. I already predicted that the #48 team wouldn't be as good in 2013 because I feel that both the driver and the crew chief were emotionally burned out after Homestead. I thought it was pretty sad in the week leading up to Homestead for a 5-time champion to have to resort to playing head games with a driver in just his 3rd full-time Cup season. A 5-time champion shouldn't be pressured by someone like Brad, especially through the media, and I saw that as him going for broke and hoping that Brad would succumb to the pressure that Carl, Denny, and even he himself did a week earlier of having to face a stronger driver. And maybe I'm putting too much thought into this, but when Chad Knaus congratulated Paul Wolfe on the job that he did this season, he looked like a broken man who had just given it his all that season and had nothing left in the tank. Add in him telling Paul that he's the best crew chief in NASCAR, and it was almost like he was passing the torch to Paul and telling him that he was now the best in the game, not Chad. I just think that they'll be emotionally burned out next season, and when things start to go wrong, we may see some dissension between Jimmie and Chad like we did in parts of 2010 when they were struggling with the new spoiler and again last year when they weren't running well, and I think we will see that again in 2013. I don't know if it'll be enough for Hendrick to break them up, but I think we will be hearing a lot more frustration between those two over the radio than we did this season, and maybe even more than we did in 2011. 970. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, if what you say is true about HMS on the plate tracks, not only was Jeff the best HMS driver on the plate tracks (though Dale, Jr.'s fans might disagree, especially where the Daytona 500 was concerned), but he might have been that by default. And as for the Daytona races being "follow the leader" races because of no outside groove. That right there points out the difference between Daytona and Talladega. At Talladega, you can ride momentum on the sweeping turns, but at Daytona, the turns are much sharper, thus the inside is always going to be an advantage, and even if the outside is equal to the inside, it's going to be harder because of the track layout. And you're right about Kasey Kahne, which is something I mentioned last year. If there's one place where Kasey is a liability to the entire Hendrick team, it's in the plate races, because he's always been notoroiusly bad at the plate races. In a way, Kasey's a lot like Harry Gant was, because Harry was never really that good at Daytona and Talladega either, but put him where the car's handling was important, and he could be almost as good as anyone on any given day, and the tougher the track, the better, and at times, I think Kasey's that way, as well. 971. Paul posted: 12.01.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I forgot to add in my last post that I feel that the #24 team has the most momentum in the HMS camp and as a result will be the best HMS team in the regular season next year, just like how they were in '07, '10, and to an extent '11. I feel that Jeff is more energized now than he was at this point one year ago, especially coming off a win in the season finale, and I think they'll be able to carry this momentum next year better than the other three HMS cars. Plus, with Jeff being in position prior to Phoenix for a top five points finish at his age with all the bad luck he had last season, along with the fact that SHR may be doing their own thing with Danica and Junior probably not worth focusing on at this point, it wouldn't surprise me if the #24 team became HMS's top priority next season. I also don't see Kasey ever winning or even becoming a serious title contender since he doesn't have the total package that other drivers like Jeff, Jimmie, Tony, and now even Brad have because of his weakness on plate tracks, short tracks, and road courses. Plus, he has the tendency to make mistakes that cost him a good finish, such as turning himself into the wall at Phoenix in the spring on the frontstretch while running in 2nd, hooking himself into the wall at Bristol by running up into Regan Smith, and his constant speeding penalties this past season. Because of that, I think a 4th place points finish is the best we will see from him, although it certainly helps that he's working alongside Jeff Gordon and seems to be the only HMS driver willing to learn from his peers. And with Junior, I think he's going to be right back to where he was from the second half of '08 through '10 in terms of being off the pace from the other HMS cars. I'm not saying he's going to have frequent spats with his crew chief and be "out to lunch" on race day like he was a few years ago, but I think that his performance following his return from two concussions late last season, along with what seems to be a greater interest in his Nationwide program than his Cup team, I think he'll have a down year in 2013, missing the Chase and very likely failing to win a race. I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to finish in the top 15 or 20 in points next season either. And on the outside chance that he does make the Chase, it will be by backing into the Chase like Harvick did this year and being very invisible like how Harvick and Truex were in the Chase. 972. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harry Gant did win the 1991 Winston 500 which is one of my favorite races ever. Harry Gant makes an economy fuel run to the end, only nobody thinks he can make it that far. Even Darrell Waltrip, the king of stretching fuel (although I think he had some help in most of those fuel win) pits towards the end and is in position to inherit the race win if Harry runs out. But as it turns out, Harry's teammate in the other Skoal car, Rick Mast, is running behind him a few laps down. Harry starts running out of fuel on the last lap, but in the first ever bump draft, Rick literally pushes Harry the last lap to the win, which is illegal. But NASCAR chooses to do a no call cause Harry Gant rules. Well, Darrell and Jeff Hammond are furious after the race cause Harry was illegally pushed and felt NASCAR should penalize them a lap and give the win to Darrell. First off, this is hilarious because NOBODY in the history of stock car racing has benefitted more from rule breaking than Darrell. Hiis DiGard years and Junior Johnson years and HMS years are filled with stories of blatently cheating in wins. And Hammond was the crew chief for most of those. So they are in the Big Red Truck afterwards raising hell saying Harry cheated (imagine Brad going into the hauler nowadays to complain that another driver is using his cell phone in the car, that is what that was like). In marches Bill France Jr telling them that he will penalize Harry a lap if they allow him to also penalize Darrell's team some laps because his spoiler angle was FIFTEEN degrees too low. Fifteen degrees. Of course Hammond claims it is because he lost his brakes entering the garage area and they had to yank on his spoiler to stop it which pulled it back. Although there is video of them grabbing the spoiler to stop the car, that doesn't account for fifteen degrees. They used to have to take rubber malletts to change the spoiler angle just 5 degrees during pit stops which was a legal adjustment back then. So bullshit Darrell and Hammond. That is one of my favorite stories ever. Darrall and Hammond got pissed and then got owned while Harry Gant, one of the most awesome human beings ever, a person whose very life is a monument to manliness, celebrated in victory lane, setting up a $100,000 bonus when he won the Southern 500 later in the year, the first of 4 consecutive victories for the 51 year old. 973. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But DSFF, the question about that finish that was never asked was whether or not Harry Gant's car was out of power on that final lap. Having seen that finish, I'd say that it was under power the whole time. Of course, the way they do it now, it wouldn't matter since they would slow down 1-2 seconds per lap when they're that close, in which case, Harry would have made it easily (he was about 20 seconds ahead), but they ran all out back then, and if they ran out of fuel, then so be it. But I believe Gant's car was under power the entire time. But if a car is under power and is given an unintentional boost on the last lap, NASCAR will almost always let that go, even though the rule clearly states that if a car is given assistance on the final lap, that that final lap is not scored. If they followed the letter of the law where that rule's concerned, more than half the cars that make it to the finish in plate races today wouldn't have their final laps scored, because they're always pushed at some point on the final lap. Only when a car's disabled in some way does NASCAR not score the final lap if it's boosted in some way, as was the case in the 1976 and 1980 Daytona 500s with Richard Petty and Neil Bonnett, respectively. 974. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are probably right cjs. I am just assuming he was illegally helped because that would make the anger Darrell and Hammond experienced even more hilarious considering how they used the rule book as a door stop for their entire careers. They were convinced Harry was out of power and illegally helped and angry about it which would be like Ndomakong Suh whining about a cheap shot. 975. Paul posted: 12.01.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gant had to have been under power that whole time because he made all the way back around and coasted his way to victory lane. But I do agree that it is awfully funny for D.W. of all people to complain about another driver breaking the rules, especially since his team violated the rules in that very race. And speaking of which, D.W.'s most famous example of stretching the fuel mileage came at the '89 Daytona 500 when he topped off under caution and stayed out and won the race as all the other leaders came to pit road. Of course, that would have never happened had NASCAR not busted he and his team for an over-sized carburetor prior to that race that would have given him an extra 20 horsepower. Had he not been busted for that carburetor, he would have had to pit with everyone else because his carburetor wouldn't have had the gas mileage that his replacement carburetor had. So in a way, cheating is what won him the Daytona 500. 976. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the reason I think that Gant was under power that entire time was, because if you tried to push one of those cars for any length of time, even in a straight line, you would spin it out for more than one reason. First, the front bumper was lower than the rear bumper, so the bumpers didn't line up. Second, the spoilers were angled really low, 30 degrees minimum in 1991, so the cars were unstable, even in a straight line. In fact, Neil Bonnett during the following year's Daytona 500 broadcast mentioned that with angles of the spoilers at 30 degrees, the cars were generating lift, meaning the rear tires are actually off the ground, and at 35 degrees, they generated zero pounds of downforce. As a result, you couldn't really run the cars that close together for very long back then, which was why the racing at Daytona and Talladega from 1988-'92 was the worst it's ever been. You just couldn't keep the cars close enough together for the draft to work, which is the very problem with the racing today at the 1.5+ mile tracks where they don't use restrictor plates. The draft is ineffective. That really came home to roost at the 1992 DieHard 500, where there were only three cars on the lead lap when the race finished, and the leader nearly broke away from the second place car in traffic near the end numerous times. NASCAR knew they had a problem, so they raised the spoiler angle and made it bigger for 1993, resulting in the best racing at Daytona and Talladega since 1984. 977. cjs3872 posted: 12.01.2012 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, Darrell did not top off on the last caution in the 1989 Daytona 500. He had actually planned to run with Schrader and Earnhardt, but when it was obvious that he couldn't catch them, that's when he went into fuel onservation mode. But what everyone forgets is that, even saving fuel, he was probably still not going to win because he was drafting behind Alan Kulwicki, who was on the same strategy, and Waltrip could not risk trying to pass Kulwicki, so he was practically forced to follow Kulwicki home until Kulwicki suffered a flat tire while leading with three laps to go. After that, Waltrip drafted Terry Labonte the rest of the way for his first Daytona 500 win. Ironically, Waltrip was nearly in the same crash on lap 72 that took Terry out of any chance at winning, but the sea parted for Waltrip at just the right moment and he made it through, while Labonte spun in the infield, causing his windshield to fly off, effecting his car the rest of the day, and eliminating any chance he had of winning. 978. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.01.2012 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like I said, you guys are right about Gant being under power. I should have prefaced my original post about this by saying it was from Darrell and Hammond's point of view that he was out of gas and being illegally pushed to the win. I just love the irony and hypocrisy of Darrell and Hammond being so angry over a creative interpretation of the rules (in their view)) while they made a career out of flat out breaking the rules, including in that race. And the way Bill France Jr pit them in their place is just priceless. And you are right that the new spoiler rules made for some kick ass plate racing in '93 (although Rusty might disagree understandably). All 4 races had heart stopping endings. The Daytona 500 had the Dale and Dale show as the out of nowhere upstart stunned the dominator in the final laps. The Winston 500 had the one lap shootout where Ernie once again caused Dale to be stunned, although the ending was tempered by Rusty's awful crash coming to the line. But that did allow us to see the human side of The Intimidator as he drove to the wreck afterwards to check on his fishing buddy and greatest rival, then gave a clearly shaken interview. The Firecracker 400 had another late race shootout as Earnhardt damn near lost it in front of the whole field off of two and had to fend off Schrader. Then there was the Summer Dega race, or as I call it, The Davey Allison Race. Two weeks after Alabama's current favorite son was tragically killed in that very infield, the sport returned to his home track where he was a 3 time Cup winner, an IROC winner, and an ARCA winner. The race was soaked in emotion, and the ending was epic with at least six cars duking it out and coming down to the wire as Dale beat Ernie by the smallest of margains, then they played the Davey tribute video featuring "The Dance". Real emotion, still emotional to watch to this day. 979. David posted: 12.01.2012 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Then there was the Summer Dega race, or as I call it, The Davey Allison Race. Two weeks after Alabama's current favorite son was tragically killed in that very infield, the sport returned to his home track where he was a 3 time Cup winner, an IROC winner, and an ARCA winner." Not to mention it was the first race for the #28 since Allison's death. It's too bad that Robby Gordon was the driver, and the car ended up wrecked only a few laps in. 980. 18fan posted: 12.01.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The end of the 1993 DieHard 500 was awesome, especially the last lap when Kyle Petty dove under Earnhardt going into turn 1 and slid up the racetrack trying to get in front of Earnhardt but couldn't and then Ernie drove underneath both Kyle and Dale and then Ernie and Dale ran the last two-thirds of the lap side-by-side with Kyle, Dale Jarrett, and Mark Martin right behind them. 981. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 1:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And let's not forget 18fan, that Bobby Labonte, then a rookie driving for Bill Davis, would also have been a part of that finish had he not run out of fuel on the last lap, because he was right in that battle for the lead. But that was as close as Kyle Petty ever came to winning a restrictor plate race, though he did have a better top finish at Talladega, as he was second in the 1985 Winston 500, a fact that's practically forgotten in Bill Elliott's mad dash from over a lap behind to take the lead without a caution coming out. Of the six drivers battling for the win at the end, five once Bobby Labonte ran out of fuel, Kyle Petty was the only one never to win at Talladega. 982. Bronco posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And with Junior, I think he's going to be right back to where he was from the second half of '08 through '10 in terms of being off the pace from the other HMS cars." Lol, now that Junior has a competent crew chief that knows what he's doing on the pitbox, there's no way he ever goes back to where he was during the Lance McGrew era. Steve and Junior proved they can make the chase by having it come down to the wire and finishing with a battered race car (Richmond 2011) or they can make the chase by being super consistent and clinching two weeks early (Bristol 2012). I'm not saying he's going to have frequent spats with his crew chief and be "out to lunch" on race day like he was a few years ago, but I think that his performance following his return from two concussions late last season, along with what seems to be a greater interest in his Nationwide program than his Cup team, I think he'll have a down year in 2013, missing the Chase and very likely failing to win a race." I don't what four races you've been watching, but in the four races since he returned he scored top 10s at Texas and Homestead (his first top 10 there), ran in the top 10 all day long at Martinsville and got spun at the end, and was mediocre at Phoenix, which didn't surprise me since him and Steve haven't yet been able to figure out the new Phoenix. So, almost three top 10s in four races following his return and somehow you think there's a problem with that. "I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to finish in the top 15 or 20 in points next season either." Lol! There's only about 24 competitive teams that run the full schedule and you Junior might finish outside the top 20 because of the effects of a concussion? Just remember, that some of the best doctors in the country cleared him to race after proving to them that he had recovered. 983. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "there's no way he ever goes back to where he was during the Lance McGrew era." Lance McGrew guided Brian Vickers to two wins (including the '05 All-Star Open) and back-to-back top 17 points finishes, and at least 5 top fives and 9 top tens in his two seasons as Vickers' crew chief. He also worked with Brad for four races in '09, including a top ten finish at Darlington of all places. Brad, a part-time driver, had half as many top tens in 4 races with Lance as Junior did in 23 races back in '09. I'm not saying that Lance McGrew is a better crew chief than his numbers show, but it's unfair to put all the blame on him for most of Junior's '09 and all of his '10 seasons when he got better results from Brian Vickers and Brad on a part-time schedule than he got from Junior. "he scored top 10s at Texas and Homestead (his first top 10 there)" I was the first person to give Junior credit for his run at Texas on that race's page, because I was surprised that he could run so well on such a fast track so soon after returning from injury. And while he finished 10th at Homestead, it wasn't as impressive as you make it out to be. He was running outside the top 15 for most of the race while his teammates were in position for a 1-2-3 finish until Kasey was speeding down pit road (like he did a lot in 2012) and Jimmie's great run was lost after his crew dropped a lugnut followed by a drivetrain failure. Also, Junior was on the same pit cycle as Jeff and Clint, and finished 8 positions and about 26 seconds behind them, even losing two spots at the end to Kyle and Truex, both of whom had already pitted, and couldn't pass Almirola or Kurt Busch when they ran out of gas on the last lap. In each of the last four races of the season, Junior was the slowest of the four HMS cars, which wasn't the case before his concussion. And as far as Phoenix goes, he finished 21st AFTER gaining three positions from the Gordon/Bowyer wreck, and was also beat by both Danica and Travis Kvapil by at least one lap. I understand that he hasn't adapted well at the new Phoenix configuration (which is his own fault, especially since he admitted to not giving Steve enough information during the race in the spring), but I'd be worried if a driver is on pace for a 24th place finish after having already won at Phoenix before and is in HMS equipment just weeks after returning from two concussions. And if you noticed, the only time he was near the front in those final four races was at Martinsville when he stayed out along with Brad late in the race. Aside from that, he spent most of the time running between 12th and 24th place while his three teammates were consistently in the top ten, often in the top five. For him to be outperformed like that by Gordon, whose cars haven't been as reliable as Junior's this season, and Kasey, who is terrible at Martinsville and did cost himself great runs at Texas and Homestead, I think is very telling. He did decent in four races, but I want to see how well he does in the first 12-18 races of next season before I change my prediction. It was one thing for his brain to take a month's worth of racing at the end of 2012, but I think seeing how well he does through the first 3-5 months of next season will be more telling because of the larger mental endurance. And in that time, he will have run three restrictor plate races, the fast superspeedways at Kansas and Michigan, and a track like Darlington where he's almost guaranteed to make contact with the wall. If he does well through those races, I'll change my stance, but at this point I think that he will do considerably worse next season. "There's only about 24 competitive teams that run the full schedule and you Junior might finish outside the top 20 because of the effects of a concussion?" I never said he would finish outside the top 20 in points next year. All I said was that I wouldn't be surprised if he fell out of the top 15 or 20 next year. I wasn't surprised that McMurray and Montoya missed the top 20 after all the bad changes EGR made in the offseason, I wasn't surprised that Brad's new teammate missed the top 15 after having a "career year", so why should I be surprised if a guy who missed the top 20 twice in the last four years when he was healthy would miss it next year after sustaining two concussions? Now I'm not saying that he will fall out of the top 20 in points, or even the top 15 for that matter, but I expect him to have a repeat of Kevin Harvick's '12 season at best (where he is often outside the top ten and backs his way into the Chase), with a good chance of being a non-factor most of the regular season and missing the Chase as a result. Remember, Junior's best tracks this year were high speed tracks like Daytona, Talladega, Michigan, and Pocono. After having sustained a concussion at Kansas, another high speed track, and again just one month later at Talladega, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he drives cautiously at those tracks. And since they were his best tracks this season, unless he improves from last season on the intermediates and short tracks, I don't expect him to win a race or make the Chase because his strength tracks from 2012 will become his weaknesses. "Just remember, that some of the best doctors in the country cleared him to race after proving to them that he had recovered." The same doctors that were told by NASCAR that Junior would be out for two weeks, even though some of them recommended he sit out the rest of the year? NASCAR couldn't afford to let their cash cow sit out for four months and risk seeing their TV ratings and attendance drop, especially after what was overall a very bad season on the Cup side for NASCAR. I still think they should have let Junior sit out the rest of the year for his own health, not to mention increase interest from fans for the 2013 Daytona Speedweeks with Junior's return as one of the promotional tactics. There was no point in him returning this season because there was nothing to gain for next year. Junior's situation is a lot like the situation that Michael Vick is in right now with the Eagles. Is he hurt? Yeah. Will he be healthy before the season is over? Probably. Should he return? No. Why not? There's no point because the season is already lost, so why risk further injuring one of your main attractions. 984. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should add that one of the people that recommended that Junior sit out the rest of the year was Ricky Craven, someone that knows more about concussions than probably everyone of us, including the doctors that diagnosed Junior and recommended he sit out for two weeks. This may sound like an uneducated answer because I'm disagreeing with doctors, but I hold Craven's answer in higher regard because at least he knows what it feels like to suffer a concussion, even suffering post-concussion syndrome because he returned from injury too quickly. Concussions may be in the health field, but I'll take the advice from someone who has actually suffered a concussion and knows first-hand what the effects are like over someone who doesn't know what they feel like; especially when that first person doesn't have an agenda behind him in terms of wanting the driver with a concussion to return too early in hopes of making money off of their return, which is the position that NASCAR was in. I'm still suspicious over the "two weeks off" ruling because normally concussions are week-by-week injuries and don't have a set deadline for when their symptoms go away. It wouldn't surprise me if the original diagnosis had a rest period of "two to six weeks", and NASCAR just heard the words "two" and "weeks" and ran with it because they couldn't afford to have their biggest name sit out the rest of the year and see their ratings and attendance drop in what was already a bad year for both categories. 985. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm still suspicious over the "two weeks off" ruling because normally concussions are week-by-week injuries and don't have a set deadline for when their symptoms go away. It wouldn't surprise me if the original diagnosis had a rest period of "two to six weeks", and NASCAR just heard the words "two" and "weeks" and ran with it because they couldn't afford to have their biggest name sit out the rest of the year and see their ratings and attendance drop in what was already a bad year for both categories." You may have a point, but remember that he actually suffered the concussion at Kansas during tire testing, and his performance went down the pipes after that. Six weeks from the time of the concussion would have been October 10th, and his return to racing after his two-week hiatus was October 28th. 986. Bronco posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) " I'm not saying that Lance McGrew is a better crew chief than his numbers show, but it's unfair to put all the blame on him for most of Junior's '09 and all of his '10 seasons when he got better results from Brian Vickers and Brad on a part-time schedule than he got from Junior." Look at Lance McGrew's 2011 season with Mark Martin then. 2011 was Mark's worst full season as a driver and the only full season where he finished outside the top 20. In fact, Mark did worse as the full time driver of the #5 than this year's part time role in the #55, once again proving that Lance's crappy cars were the culprit. It's no surprise that both Junior and Mark experienced a career resurgence after losing Lance. And that's why Kahne brought his own crew chief with him rather than going with the existing crew chief of the #5. To me Lance is far better suited at being a CC for younger drivers in lower series than Cup veterans. "And while he finished 10th at Homestead, it wasn't as impressive as you make it out to be." I never said it was impressive, I just said it was a solid finish, one of many that Steve and Junior pulled off this year. In terms of raw speed they were way behind many, but were among the best at pulling off consistent, steady finishes. "In each of the last four races of the season, Junior was the slowest of the four HMS cars, which wasn't the case before his concussion." Sure he was, but that doesn't guarantee it will translate into next year. For all we know him and Steve were trying out different setups to prepare for next year since they had nothing to lose or gain at that point. "I never said he would finish outside the top 20 in points next year." Your exact comment in #971 was "I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to finish in the top 15 or 20 in points next season either." "After having sustained a concussion at Kansas, another high speed track, and again just one month later at Talladega, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he drives cautiously at those tracks." Junior was on track to finish 4th at Texas last month, but he fumbled the restart and ended up 7th - and this was just a week after returning to his race car. He was also the only driver to finish in the top 10 at every single 1.5 and 2 mile track that he competed on this year, so as long as Steve can figure out how to apply those setups to the new car there should be nothing stopping them from repeating that in 2013. 987. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 11:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again, with only about 25 competitve full-time cars (out of a 43-car field), one of which will be driven by a crash-prone rookie named Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., I would say 15th-17th in points is the absolute floor for Dale, Jr., considering the team and equipment he's in. If you checked the blog post I made about 10-12 days ago regarding the line-up next year, you'd have probably figured that out, so I think you know about the weak line-up next year among the full-time teams. In other words, he'll be a Chase contender, almost by default. Whether or not he'll make the Chase is another story. I won't divulge whether or not I think he will for another several weeks. 988. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, Dale Jr. since that Kansas test track really hasn't been the same driver. If you look at him at Martinsville in the fall compare to the spring in terms of what position he was racing on the track through the race, He was better in the spring. Next year is a question marks for him and I mentioned my predictions that I don't have Dale Jr. in the chase for that reason. Some drivers are not quite the same driver after concussions. I am bringing that up because Darrell Waltrip is a prime example. Darrell Waltrip suffered a concussion at the 1983 Daytona 500. He won races after that concussion and his 1985 championship, but wasn't the same driver according to Ed Hinton. Ed Hinton has been covering the races since the 1970's for news papers and now ESPN as a writer. Ed Hinton mentioned in the past that his competitors thought he was still a threat at shorter tracks, but wasn't the same driver at high speed tracks after that concussion. It is true that Darrell won at Charlotte, Pocono, and Daytona after his concussion, but the impression of Ed Hinton that Darrell wasn't the same driver. 989. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 12:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll just come out and say it: I will not be surprised in the least if June finishes outside the Top 20 in points. I think it will be a tougher than usual year for HMS as their #1 team, the 48 juggernaut, very well may be heading for some serious bumps in the road. I predict a trickle down effect which will effectively end any chance June has of having a good year. Throw in the fact that I predict a strong year from JGR with the addition of Kenseth, MWR taking a step back, but not a huge step back, and the Ford camp being boosted by the addition of Penske Racing, I could very easily see June finishing about 22nd in points. And I wouldn't judge McGrew's performances off his '10 and '11 performances. Those years were tanked for Mark by Rick himself. It was punishment for not retiring after their original 1 year deal in '09 which prevented him from putting Brad in the #5 car. Rick knew exactly what he was losing there as evidenced by his initial "won't let him stray too far" remarks when Brad first signed with Penske. He wanted him back when he got the chance. He then forgot about Brad when Kasey became available at the end of '10, somebody at the time projected to have a celing at worst equal to Brad's, and considered a better driver by most at the time (whoops!). I think the most telling sign of McGrew's ability may be the fact that, when he was announced as June's crew chief, Kyle Busch praised McGrew publically. Kyle never praises ANYBODY publically, including his own team, crew chief, and organization. And he also predicted exactly what went down. He said they would struggle, the McGrew would be labled "the problem" after Tony Jr was labled "the problem" and in '05, Pete Rondeau was tagged as "the problem". And LeTarte is one bad year away from being "the problem". 990. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Your exact comment in #971 was 'I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to finish in the top 15 or 20 in points next season either.'" Which proves his point. Just because he wouldn't be surprised if he finished outside the top 20 doesn't mean he expects him to. "Look at Lance McGrew's 2011 season with Mark Martin then. 2011 was Mark's worst full season as a driver and the only full season where he finished outside the top 20. In fact, Mark did worse as the full time driver of the #5 than this year's part time role in the #55, once again proving that Lance's crappy cars were the culprit. It's no surprise that both Junior and Mark experienced a career resurgence after losing Lance. And that's why Kahne brought his own crew chief with him rather than going with the existing crew chief of the #5. To me Lance is far better suited at being a CC for younger drivers in lower series than Cup veterans." Actually, part of Mark Martin's lack of success (to put it mildly) in 2011 must be attributed to the fact that Rick Hendrick was diverting an increasing amount of resources and focus to the #88 team of Dale Earnhardt, Jr., as evidenced by his 88.89 relevance (read: percent of finishes in the top-half of the field) that season, to try and make it into a Chase contender again. This resulted in the #5 team suffering. And you are incorrect about last season being Mark Martin's worst season as a driver. That would be 2003, in which he scored 5 top fives and 10 top tens, had a 20.2 average finish and a 61.11 relevance, and finished 17th in the standings driving in top-flight Roush equipment. Using David Smith's PEER metric, Martin scored a 0.917 rating that year, his only replacement-level rating in a 29-year career. 2011 was a 1.083, even though he finished lower in the points and had fewer top fives (but was relevant 73.08% of the time). Dale Earnhardt, Jr., on the other hand scored the aforementioned 88.89 relevance (88.46 in the first 26 races, both tied for the series-best), but only a 0.625 PEER. 991. Anonymous posted: 12.02.2012 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think people need to realize something, most of Juniors wins came with a car that was high in downforce (2001-2006. I concider the 2007 version of the lame duck) Even with the first version of the COT, he never adapted to it well. When NASCAR ripped the off the wing and put on the new nose and spoiler (which the COT was designed for both) he did better but still never quite to the "old, old car" standards. Even the final version of the COT, had less downforce then the old car. The New car has even less downforce then what they used to run (more mechanical grip but less aero grip). If you ask any Jr. nation fan, they will say it sucked. I say it sucked because he himself couldn't drive it. So how many of you are willing to bet that if can't drive the new car (which i'm betting he will not), his fans will scream that the car will suck? 992. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Jr. since that Kansas test track really hasn't been the same driver. If you look at him at Martinsville in the fall compare to the spring in terms of what position he was racing on the track through the race, He was better in the spring." Exactly. "I am bringing that up because Darrell Waltrip is a prime example. Darrell Waltrip suffered a concussion at the 1983 Daytona 500. He won races after that concussion and his 1985 championship, but wasn't the same driver according to Ed Hinton. Ed Hinton has been covering the races since the 1970's for news papers and now ESPN as a writer. Ed Hinton mentioned in the past that his competitors thought he was still a threat at shorter tracks, but wasn't the same driver at high speed tracks after that concussion. It is true that Darrell won at Charlotte, Pocono, and Daytona after his concussion, but the impression of Ed Hinton that Darrell wasn't the same driver." He may not have been the same driver, but he was a better person. Before the wreck, he would just run over drivers whenever he wanted, thinking that he was invincible. Fortunately, the hard lick he took straightened him out a little bit. By the way, the Ed Hinton book you refer to is "Daytona: From the Birthplace of Speed to the Death of the Man in Black". 993. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric and David, you must also remember that Junior Johnson's cars were losing strength in comparison to it's competition by the mid-80s, as well. That would not be much of a factor when it comes to short tracks, but would be a bigger factor on the bigger tracks. That's another reason why Darrell seemed to struggle on bigger tracks after his crash in the 1983 Daytona 500. But he won on almost every big track after that, except Talladega, and his style never was conducive to making aggressve moves on big tracks, which is why he was never that big a factor at Daytona when he drove for Junior, even before his big crash in the 1983 Daytona 500. But remember that Junior's team struggled on bigger tracks (and as a whole) even after Darrell left, so we can't pin all of Darrell's post-crash struggles on his crash, because Junior Johnson's team was also getting weaker. For instance, Terry Labonte and Geoff Bodine each only won once for Junior at a speedway, and that covers the five years between Darrell's departure and Bill Elliott's arrival there in 1992. Also, Darrell was at that point in his career were his success figured to wane anyway. Waltrip's crash in '83 came in his 11th year. But let's also remember that he won six times that year and seven the followng year, and he won on some big tracks in 1984, and quite a bit of his success for Rick Hendrick came on bigger tracks, as he won at Daytona, Atlanta, twice at Charlotte, and he won twice at Pocono after he left Hendrick. There's no doubt that his 1983 crash at Daytona slowed down his career, but there were a number of other factors involved in Waltrip's decline. And Waltrip, like Jeff Gordon, was a driver that dominated in between eras. Waltrip was the driver that dominated in between the eras of Petty, Pearson, and the drivers of their era, and Dale Earnhardt, Bill Elliott, and the drivers of their era. 994. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I did mention Darrell Waltrip won at Daytona, Charlotte and Pocono after his 1983 Daytona crash on post 988. That meant I was talking about all his wins at those 3 tracks after his 1983 crash at Daytona. 995. murb posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my 2013 Predictions list that I made, I had Dale Jr missing the Chase. I agree with DSFF, I think HMS will have a bit of a frustrating year. Now, I have Jeff Gordon as my championship pick, but the reason why is that I think he and his team will bring their fired up energy that they had towards the last couple races of 2012 over. I just see him having one more of those "awakened giant" type years before he is done, and I think it might be next year. I think Kasey will still be good too just because he is so consistent. And since he is in the same shop as Gordon, maybe some of the 24's determination will rub off on the 5 team. So basically, I think the 5/24 shop will have a good (and potentially great) year if my Gordon prediction comes true to life (which it probably won't, but whatever). However, I believe that the 48/88 shop will be in for one rough year. We've documented the potential turmoil that the 48 team will have after coming up short in 2012. And as for Jr, with the new car coming in, I just think he will struggle for the most part. At best, he'll have almost a carbon copy year of 2007 when the new car came in that year. But I can definitely see him falling even further off. And like you guys mentioned, I'm sure if he does fall further off, Letarte will be the first one blamed, which is ridiculous. 996. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I did know about Darrell's 1983 and 1984 seasons in how many wins he had when I did post 988. The catch is Ed Hinton has mentioned on ESPN in the past about what the competitors thought of Waltrip after that crash. Ed himself claimed Darrell said in the past that he was the same driver after the crash, but Ed didn't think he was. 997. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 2:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, There was something you forgot about with Dale Jr.'s 2007 season. While Dale Jr. had 7 top 5's and 13 top's, Dale had 6 races with engine problems. Dale lead over 30 laps in 3 races that he blew his engine. The other thing is most of the races Dale Blew his engine in, he was having a top 10 day. That mean Dale was better in 2007 than his stats say. 998. Bronco posted: 12.02.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There was no point in him returning this season because there was nothing to gain for next year." As I mentioned on the Texas race page, there was definitely a point in bringing Junior back for the final four races since his car is losing a lot of sponsorship for next year. Even when the driver in question is a 10 time MPD and is coming off one of his best seasons ever, it's still hard to sell sponsorship to any company when they're not sure what to expect out of the driver in the new season. "It wouldn't surprise me if the original diagnosis had a rest period of "two to six weeks", and NASCAR just heard the words "two" and "weeks" and ran with it because they couldn't afford to have their biggest name sit out the rest of the year and see their ratings and attendance drop in what was already a bad year for both categories." You honestly believe NASCAR had a hidden agenda wanted Junior back quickly in the interest of ratings? Drivers are considered independent contractors, no matter what happens to them the show that is NASCAR must go on. If Junior had the same blood clot issue that Vickers did in May 2010 and was told to sit out the rest of the year, you think NASCAR could have told him to get back in the car anyway so that ratings and fan interest wouldn't decline? Who cares what Ricky Craven says about concussions? Dr. Petty sat out Junior and oversaw his return to racing, which meant clearing whatever tests were laid out for him. Craven may have suffered concussions, but he's no doctor. 999. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) A lot of you guys beat me to it by making several good points about why there's a good chance that Junior won't do well in 2013. I think that the combination of Junior's concussion and not knowing how he'll handle a full season, the new car and his past struggles at adapting to a new car, and what could be a rough year overall for the #48/88 shop due to what I believe to be a case of burn out from the #48 team, I think 2013 will be a struggle for Junior. How much of a struggle 2013 will be will depend on how well he works with Steve Letarte. If he tries really hard and provides good information for once, I see him backing into the Chase similar to how Kevin Harvick did this year. If he throws in the towel because the team is struggling early in the year, I see him falling out of the top 15 or even the top 20. Junior's success in 2013 will be solely based on how he performs, because now Junior Nation doesn't have a crew chief excuse to use since Letarte has proven to be a good fit with Junior. If Junior performs well, it's be because he performed and meshed well with the team. If he struggles, the blame is solely on him because I guarantee you that the #48 team won't struggle as bad as Junior will. David beat me to it, but I want to reiterate the point I was making about Junior falling out of the top 15 or 20. I said that I wouldn't be surprised if he fell out of the top 15 or 20, but I never said he WOULD fall out of the top 15 or 20. It'll all depend on how he adapts to the new car and provides good feedback to Steve throughout the course of the race. I highly doubt he'll be back to 2012 form, so the best he can hope for is to back his way into the Chase the way that Kevin Harvick did this past season. And because he may be hesitant on the superspeedways after suffering two concussions at Kansas and Talladega last year, I think he'll go winless because the superspeedways were Junior's best tracks last year. So if he makes the Chase, he'll have to be in the top 10 in points after 26 races because without a win, he won't get the wildcard. And the worst case scenario is a repeat of '09 and '10 where Junior doesn't perform or provide good feedback and puts all the blame on his crew chief, causing him to fall down the points standings. I don't think it'll happen, but because he has a history of tanking in HMS equipment, I think it's still a possibility. Rick didn't want Mark back after '09 because he wanted Brad to replace Mark for the 2010 season. Because Mark wouldn't leave after the '09 season and Brad signed with Penske, Rick decided he would sacrifice Mark's '10 season by having the #5 team work more closely with the #88 team. The plan backfired because Junior wasn't motivated to perform up to expectations, and so both teams went winless and missed the Chase as a result. And then 2011 was just an even worse repeat for Mark because now he was sharing a shop with the #24 team, which also went winless in 2010, and Rick put the majority of resources behind that team because he wanted Jeff to get up to speed more than Mark. Mark was a lame duck driver for his entire tenure at HMS, so it should be no surprise that he started to tank with each passing season. Plus, it didn't help getting Lance McGrew in 2011 because that meant relying on Junior's notes from the previous season, a task that almost no one could overcome because Junior is terrible at providing feedback to the crew. I remember that press conference that Kyle gave and Junior responded to about the '09 crew chief change from Tony Jr. to McGrew. I disagree with a lot of what Kyle says and does, but he hit the nail on the head by saying that now Junior has a new sacrificial lamb to put the blame on. And when asked for his response to Kyle, Junior shifted the attention towards Kyle and how he says a lot of things just to get attention. What happened? Junior was out to lunch for the next 1 and two-thirds seasons with McGrew, put all the blame on McGrew for not getting the car up to speed, and made Kyle look like a genius to those of us who remembered his comments on the crew chief change. I don't know who takes more bullets for their team, Andy Reid or Junior's crew chiefs. Those have to be the two worst jobs in all of sports because you get none of the credit for when things go well, and all of the blame when things go bad. And speaking of crew chief changes, has anyone fired more family members than Junior and Kelley Earnhardt? From the awful crew swap in '05, to the constant bickering with Tony Jr. that ultimately led to his firing in '09, to the recent events of removing both Tony Sr. and Jr. from his Nationwide program, the 3rd generation Earnhardts have to be the worst family members in all of sports. They're not firing their family members because they're not producing (that's Junior's job), they're firing them and making crew swaps because they won't roll over for Junior and tell him what he wants to hear. And because Junior isn't man enough to do it himself, he has his sister handle all the dirty work for him. I wish Dale was still alive because he wouldn't stand for the way that Junior has treated his uncle and cousin over the years. 1000. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, my point was about Darrell not doing well in Junior's cars after his 1983 crash was not just to point out how that crash affected Darrell's career after that incident. That's been well chronicled. As you mentioned, Ed Hinton mentioned it, as did Junior Johnson, and others. That much we know. But the greater point I brought up was how Junior Johnson's team was also falling behind, as evidenced by the fact that, in the five years between the dpartures of Darrell Waltrip and Neil Bonnett and the arrival of Bill Elliott, Junior's cars won only twice on spedways, Terry Labonte's win in the 1989 DieHard 500 (over Darrell Waltrip, no less) and Geoff Bodine's win in the fall race at Charlotte in 1991, which was controversial in nature, as well as being sweet redemption, considering the fall-out from the All-Star Race for that very team. That's why I said there were more factors than just the crash in the 1983 Daytona 500 behind the dropoff in perforamnce for Darrell at Junior Johnson in 1985-'86. They were behind, and everyone there knew it. And the only year when he was at Hendrick where Darrell's cars were any good was in 1989, whe he won six times. 1001. Bronco posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle never praises ANYBODY publically, including his own team, crew chief, and organization." Clearly you haven't paid attention to his interviews, where he has praised Steve Addington, Dave Rogers, Jason Ratcliff, Rick Ren, Mike Beam, as well as allhis crew guys. "Throw in the fact that I predict a strong year from JGR with the addition of Kenseth, MWR taking a step back, but not a huge step back, and the Ford camp being boosted by the addition of Penske Racing, I could very easily see June finishing about 22nd in points." Lol, really? Expect the whole 18th to 24th positions in points to be occupied by the usual suspects McMurray/Montoya (the switch to HMS engines will help, but only to put them back in the top 20 in points), Almirola/Ambrose (won't get any support from Ford and will likely struggle), Jeff Burton (last year in the #31) Kurt Busch (good finishes will be offset by wrecks from over driving the car) and Bobby Labonte (single car team continues to struggle). The absolute worst I can see out of Junior next year is having a Ryan Newman 2012 type season. "And LeTarte is one bad year away from being "the problem"." Steve will never be the "problem" simply because he has a track record of success. He has made the chase every year as a full season crew chief and he makes good adjustments on race day. If Steve has a problem, it's that I'd like to see him be a bit more aggressive with making pit calls like Paul Wolfe is, but overall Steve is by far the best CC Junior has had since Tony Sr. The reason Lance sucked is because he neither brings fast cars to the track or has good adjustments one race day. The best crew chiefs can do both (Knaus, Wolfe, Osborne, Grubb) but to me most are good at only one of the two. Gustafson and Chad Johnston bring fast cars to the track, but their adjustments doesn't always work out. On the other had guys like Fennig, Addington, Letarte don't start with fast cars but make all the right adjustments to get their driver a good finish at the end. McGrew's biggest weakness was putting out a competitive car for the intermediates which turned out to be Junior's strongest track type once he got away from McGrew. 1002. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1001st comment! Anyway, why does the Ford 400 always bring something off topic? 1003. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Aww man... 1002nd and 1003rd comment then :) 1004. 18fan posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I actually think Addington is one of the crew chiefs who brings fast cars but struggles to make adjustments. He seemed a little better this year with Tony than he was with either of the Busch brothers at making adjustments during the race, but overall his adjustments are not great. 1005. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad has received a contract extension from Penske Racing that lasts through either the 2014 or 2015 season. So it appears that Brad is no longer "on loan" to Penske. Apparently Denny Hamlin lobbied for Matt Kenseth to join JGR, similar to how Brad lobbied for Joey Logano to join Penske. Denny wanted Matt to replace Joey because not only is Matt a championship driver with great driving talents and leadership skills, but he also has a similar driving style to Denny, and Denny wanted someone similar to him that he could learn from going forward. Sorry Brad, but I'll take Denny's advice over which driver to sign over yours. "You honestly believe NASCAR had a hidden agenda wanted Junior back quickly in the interest of ratings?" I don't put anything past a sport that waited until after one of its greatest drivers died before they started to take serious action towards the advancement of driver safety, even though three other drivers had died from similar fatal head injuries in the previous nine months. "If Junior had the same blood clot issue that Vickers did in May 2010 and was told to sit out the rest of the year, you think NASCAR could have told him to get back in the car anyway so that ratings and fan interest wouldn't decline?" You have to look at the drivers involved. On one hand, you have a driver with the best sponsorship package and is allegedly the most popular driver in the sport; and on the other hand, you have a driver with only one sponsor (a team sponsor at that) that has never finished in the top ten in points. Vickers could sit out for two seasons and NASCAR wouldn't care, but they do care if there's a chance that their biggest name might miss the last six races of the season from...wait for it...A HEAD INJURY. As Brian France once said, NASCAR needs Junior in order to do well in the ratings and attendance. While I disagree with that statement, because the guy in charge of the sport has admitted to how much the sport needs Junior, along with Brian's record of being a schmuck, I do think that they would risk their main attraction's health for the sake of ratings and attendance. "Who cares what Ricky Craven says about concussions?" I care about what former drivers who have suffered concussions have to say in regards to the health of current drivers who suffer concussions. And because Craven has suffered concussions (and still shows the effects of them today in his announcing), I think his word is good on this subject, especially since he doesn't benefit one way or the other as to whether Junior returns early or sits out for a few months, which NASCAR does. "there was definitely a point in bringing Junior back for the final four races since his car is losing a lot of sponsorship for next year...it's still hard to sell sponsorship to any company when they're not sure what to expect out of the driver in the new season." So basically, you have just reiterated the point that I was making about the Junior needing to come back because there's too much money on the line. If what you say is true, then that is just sad to see how heartless this sport has become in that they're willing to risk further injuring one of their biggest names for the sake of making money. And also, I think you just contradicted yourself because while you state Junior HAD to come back for sponsorship reasons, he was also cleared by doctors to return after sitting out for two weeks. So did he return after two weeks because he could, or because he had to for sponsorship purposes? The fact that we're now talking about sponsorship requirements doesn't make a good case for him returning after two weeks because he was cleared by doctors. It almost sounds like he returned after two weeks because his sponsors wanted him back early, not because he should have returned early because of his health. 1006. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Steve Addington is very overrated as a crew chief. He seems to hold his drivers back more than anything. I realize that he has had to deal with three huge personalities in Stewart and the Busch brothers, but seeing as how his best points finish out of all three of them was 9th this season with Stewart (10th if you exclude Gordon's penalty), doesn't make him a good case for being a great crew chief. My best example is when he first teamed with Kurt in 2010. Kurt finished 4th in the points in '09 when the HMS/SHR cars were dominating and finished 1-2-3 in the points, but fell back to 11th in the points in back-to-back seasons with Addington. I don't think Addington is that much better than Lance McGrew as a crew chief, but his record is better because he's always been partnered with great drivers who were motivated to be the best, but their seasons always fell flat in the overall points. And speaking of Stewart, apparently Roger Penske has offered him a chance to race in the Indianapolis 500 this season. Should Stewart accept, he would be the first driver to attempt the Memorial Day double-duty since Robby Gordon in 2004. Although it should be noted that John Andretti did a similar thing in '09 when he ran the Indianapolis 500 while also having a full-time Cup ride with Front Row Motorsports, but he took two weeks off to prepare for qualifying and the race, so he wasn't even in the Coca-Cola 600 that weekend. 1007. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think Steve Addington is very overrated as a crew chief. He seems to hold his drivers back more than anything. I realize that he has had to deal with three huge personalities in Stewart and the Busch brothers, but seeing as how his best points finish out of all three of them was 9th this season with Stewart (10th if you exclude Gordon's penalty), doesn't make him a good case for being a great crew chief. My best example is when he first teamed with Kurt in 2010. Kurt finished 4th in the points in '09 when the HMS/SHR cars were dominating and finished 1-2-3 in the points, but fell back to 11th in the points in back-to-back seasons with Addington. I don't think Addington is that much better than Lance McGrew as a crew chief, but his record is better because he's always been partnered with great drivers who were motivated to be the best, but their seasons always fell flat in the overall points." Give him a pass for his first three years because in 2005, Bobby Labonte was in his career fade, and in 2006 and '07, J.J. Yeley was, well, J.J. Yeley. 1008. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing about these prognstications about where Dale, Jr. might finish in th points next year, and this goes for any driver, and that is if he runs in all the races next year. Obviously if he misses any races, he'll finish lower in opoints, but if Dale, Jr. runs in all the races and misses the Chase, I agree with Bronco that 15th-17th in points is the absolute floor (or maybe he agrees with me), considering how few competitve cars and teams there are, with one of those cars being driven by Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., who may crash in as many as half the races. And I think even he'll finish 17th-20th in points, though I won't make any official predictions on that until Christmas and New Year's. Also remember that two competitve cars are not driven by the same driver in every race. One is the #55 car, which will have at least three drivers next year, and the other is the #21 of Trevor Bayne, which will only be in 12-16 races next year. With the support they get from Roush, if the #21 ran in all 36 the races, they would have a chance to finish in the top 20 in points next year because the field does not have that many competitve cars in it. 1009. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm about 500 comments late on this, but this is the first time a driver racing anything other than a Chevrolet won the title since Kurt Busch won the 2004 Cup driving a Ford. 1010. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The real problem with Steve Addington is the fact his teams are known to peak early in the season and that also happened back when he was Busch series crew chief. I would give Steve a pass with J.J. Yeley, Bobby Labonte, and Kyle Busch. I am saying Kyle Busch because Kyle from a mental standpoint can't handle the pressure in the chase and always been the reason. The reason Kyle did so well in the chase this year is because he wasn't in the chase and that means Kyle didn't have to handle any pressure. I think Kurt is stronger than Kyle from a mental standpoint despite how acts and being a even bigger jerk than his brother at times. What he did in 2004 during the chase proves that. Kurt also handled the 600 well in 2010. Kurt being a runner up at Daytona so many times is something you can't always point it to the driver. 1011. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not just that Eric, but in all three of his Daytona 500 runner-up finishes (2003, '05,and '08), Kurt rallied to finish second, so it wasn't about him making a mistake that took him out of the lead, resulting in him finishing second, but Kurt rallying to finish second. And the one time Kurt hada dominant car in the Daytona 500, which was in 2007, he was right on Tony Stewart's bumper when Stewart hit the apron, causing him to lose control and Busch was too close to avoid him, resulting in a crash somewhat like what happened to Richard Petty, Darrell Waltrip, and David Pearson in the 1978 Daytona 500. And talking about Steve Addington, he cost Kurt Busch a shot at victory in the 2010 Daytona 500 by pitting him late from third place. Otherwise, Busch might have won both the Daytona 500 and the Coca-Cola 600 in 2010, something no driver has done since 1997, when Jeff gordon won both of those races and the Southern 500, only the sport's third true Triple Crown sweep. (Gordon also won the All-Star Race that year, as Kurt did in 2010.) I'll trust Kurt in a big situation a whole lot more than I'll trust Kyle, because Kurt actually has proven that he can perform under pressure, unlike Kyle, who almost always chokes under pressure. And let's not forget that Kurt has something else that Kyle does not possess, and that is a championship, won in 2004 under real pressure from a four-time champion (Gordon) and a future five-time champion (Jimmie Johnson). 1012. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To change the subject, Jerry Bonkowski (whose articles and writings I vehemently dislike) recently posted a list on Bleacher Report listing the "25 Greatest American Drivers of All-Time". They were, in no particular order: - Richard Petty, NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt, NASCAR - Jimmie Johnson, NASCAR - Jeff Gordon, NASCAR - David Pearson, NASCAR - Cale Yarborough, NASCAR - Darrell Waltrip, NASCAR - Junior Johnson, NASCAR - Ned Jarrett, NASCAR - Bobby Allison, NASCAR - Rusty Wallace, NASCAR - A.J. Foyt, Open-Wheel and NASCAR - Rick Mears, Open-Wheel - Mario Andretti, Open-Wheel - Al Unser, Open-Wheel - Michael Andretti, Open-Wheel - John Force, NHRA Drag Racing - Don Garlits, NHRA Drag Racing - Shirley Muldowney, NHRA Drag Racing - Tony Schumacher, NHRA Drag Racing - Kenny Bernstein, NHRA Drag Racing - Warren Johnson, NHRA Drag Racing - Bob Glidden, NHRA Drag Racing - Steve Kinser, World of Outlaws - Dan Gurney, Formula One If you ask me, I'm disappointed. The writer stated that he worked with specific numbers in each category; 11 drivers from NASCAR, 5 from "IndyCar" (his own word there), 7 from NHRA, one from World of Outlaws/Sprint Cars, and one from Formula One. How does one NOT include Tony Stewart on such a list?? To say nothing of a few others who should have been on there. Also, only ONE Formula One driver?! 1013. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chuckstrong! I think we can go ahead an pencil the Colts into a stunning first round playoff victory over whoever is the #4 seed in the AFC playoffs (looks to be either the Pats or, irony alert, the Broncos). And from there they could very well upset the #1 or #2 seed depending on whether or not the #6 seed wins their wildcard game (probably the Steelers, probably a win, I can see dueling first round exits for both Brady and Manning) before playing a HOME playoff game in the AFC title game against Pittsburgh who should be healthy by then at which point the fairy tale ends and they get crushed. Screw it, here are my AFC playoff predictions: Wildcard: Colts win @Denver Steelers win @Foxboro Divisional: Colts win @Baltimore (insert Mayflower joke here) Steelers win @Houston AFC title game: Steelers win @Colts Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute. Did I just predict a sweep by all road teams? Looks like I did. Screw it, I'm going with it. Homefield doesn't mean much anymore. 1014. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The real problem with Steve Addington is the fact his teams are known to peak early in the season and that also happened back when he was Busch series crew chief." This is very true. His best points finish in NASCAR came in the Busch Series in '02 when he crew chiefed Jason Keller to a 2nd place points finish behind Greg Biffle, who has had a good career in Cup in the years since. But that team did peak early and struggled for consistency for the latter part of the season, as have most of Addington's teams. Through 12 races in '02, Keller had 4 wins, 8 top fives, and was leading the points. Meanwhile, Biffle through 12 races had no wins, 4 top fives, and was almost two full races back in 8th place in the points. Then over the final 22 races, Biffle won 4 races and had just three finishes worse than 8th place, while Keller couldn't win another race and struggled with consistency. At the end of the season, not only did Biffle win the championship over Keller, but he did so by a larger margin than what Keller had over him 8 races into the season. Obviously Biffle deserves a large amount of credit for putting his team on his back with crew chief Randy Goss and rallying from 8th place all the way into the points lead, but I think that the #57 team that Addington and Keller were apart of ran out of gas one-third of the way into the season and couldn't seal the deal late in the year, which Biffle did. And this season with Stewart, aside from being 3rd in the points very early in the season at one point and briefly bouncing back to 5th after the win at Daytona, that #14 team was a 7th-10th place team in the points all season, including in the Chase when the team finished 17th or worse five times in ten Chase races. The #14 team was on the edge of the Chase all of 2011, but they at least came to play once the Chase began. This season however, although they won 3 races, including 2 of the first 5 races of the season, that team just never improved throughout the course of the year, and actually got worse as the year went on, which is the exact opposite of what they did in 2011. Although part of the blame for Stewart's performance is due to distractions he experienced with Danica and dealing with the media that she brought with her, as well as trying to find sponsorship for Ryan Newman, I think Addington deserves a large part of the blame as well, especially for Stewart's performance in the Chase that was anything but what Stewart accomplished the year prior with Darian Grubb. By the way, excluding Kurt Busch (who was parked for the final two races in '05) and Alan Kulwicki (who died five races into '93), Stewart's 9th place points finish is the worst points finish for a defending Cup champion since Dale Earnhardt backed up his '91 championship with a 12th place points finish in '92. 1015. 18fan posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony has backed up his three championships with point finishes of 7th (2003), 11th (2006; missed the Chase), and 9th (2012) 1016. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you forgot to mention the ultimate irony should the Colts play and beat the Broncos, and that is that Andrew Luck would defeat his predecessor Peyton Manning in his rookie season in the playoff, a feat that Peyton couldn't accomplish as he only won 3 games his rookie season. Should the Colts play and beat the Broncos in the playoffs, I think that would write off Peyton Manning from the discussion of the greatest quarterbacks of all-time because he would fail to do something that Joe Montana managed to do: Come back from injury and beat your former team, which Montana did in '94 when he led the Chiefs over the 49ers and his successor Steve Young. Now of course, all that is hypothetical since the Colts haven't clinched a playoff berth yet, although it's very likely that they will. That being said, I'm rooting for the Colts and hope that they can go deep into the playoffs, considering all the adversity they've had to overcome this season with being the worst team in 2011, having a rookie quarterback, and of course having their head coach take a leave of absence after being diagnosed with treatable leukemia. I used to be a Colts fan back when Manning wasn't constantly on my TV trying to sell me pizzas, but I'm starting to pull for them every week as they have gone from being an NFL powerhouse that failed in the playoffs to an underdog team that is scratching and clawing its way back to relevance, and that is making me, along with a lot of other people, pull for the Colts given their lack of success as of late. And speaking of pulling for teams, how about what the Chiefs did today? Beating the Panthers only a day removed after losing one of their players, Jovan Belcher, after a murder-suicide right outside the team's facilities and in front of head coach Romeo Crennel and general manager Scott Pioli. For that team to win just their 2nd game of the season a little over 24 hours removed from losing on of its players in such a tragic way, and to pull together as a team and play some pretty flawless football and beat a more talented team is pretty amazing to me. It doesn't look like much on the stat sheet because the Chiefs were the first team t be eliminated from playoff contention last week, but that is truly one of the biggest wins of the year, and along with the Colts and their "CHUCKSTRONG" motivation, is one of those feel-good stories that you just can't help but appreciate. 1017. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, you're right 18fan. Stewart's 9th place points finish this season is the worst for a defending champion since he did it back in '06 when he finished 11th in the points. It's been six years, but I guess I still can't believe he missed the Chase that year seeing as how I completely overlooked that season. 1018. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By the way, excluding Kurt Busch (who was parked for the final two races in '05) and Alan Kulwicki (who died five races into '93), Stewart's 9th place points finish is the worst points finish for a defending Cup champion since Dale Earnhardt backed up his '91 championship with a 12th place points finish in '92." It's funny that you should say "excluding Kurt Busch" because parked or not parked, he still finishes at least 10th in the standings. 1019. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I excluded Kurt's '05 season because he didn't run all the races that season. Also, prior to his suspension, he was 8th in the points and had almost a full race advantage over 10th place Jeremy Mayfield with two races to go. 1020. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man the San Diego Chargers really suck I don't think they have ever been the same since blowing a 3 touchdown lead to Denver 1021. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone else find it ironic that after many rumors of Mark Sanchez being benched for Tim Tebow, in the very game that Tebow is inactive due to injury, Sanchez gets benched by 3rd string quarterback Greg McElroy, who leads the Jets to their only scoring drive and ultimately the win over the Cardinals? Man, and I thought the 49ers had a quarterback controversy. Speaking of the 49ers, Colin Kaepernick was called for intentional grounding in the endzone early in the game, which resulted in a safety. The game eventually went to overtime and was won by the Rams after a game-winning field goal in overtime. Had that safety not happened, the 49ers likely would have won because the Rams had to kick a long field goal just to take the game to overtime, and would have had trouble scoring another touchdown to win the game at the end of regulation had the safety not occurred. I'm not putting the blame on Kaepernick for the 49ers loss, but it can't be denied that that early mistake contributed to them losing to the Rams. Of course, their kicker David Akers missed a field goal in overtime, so the game could have been won regardless had things gone differently. And oddly enough, just a month after playing each other and having the first NFL tie in four years, the Rams kicked the game-winning field goal with about 28 seconds left on the clock, so we almost saw two teams have two ties against one another in the same season. And speaking of the Rams, I know he won't win it, but Jeff Fisher should be in the running for NFL Coach of the Year. That Rams team is not very good, and yet he has led them to a 5-6-1 record. They still have a shot at going over .500 as their remaining schedule features "beatable" teams the Bills, Buccaneers, the division rival Seahawks, and even my Vikings. If they do run the table (or at least go 3 out of 4) and reach .500, it will largely be because of the coaching job that Fisher has done. 1022. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is why I said "irony alert" for a possible first round matchup of the Colts and Broncos. And can you imagine had that Chiefs/Niners game happened a year earlier in the Super Bowl (both teams made it to the conference final only to be crushed by the Bills and Cowboys respectively). And while I extend my congrats to the Chiefs for their win today as well as my prayers to the family and friends of that player's girlfriend and everyone affected by this terrible tragedy, I am equally disgusted by my Panthers. And I am absolutely freaking sick of Cam Newton doing his stupid ass celebrations while they have such a terrible record. It is bullshit. They were 3-8 entering the game and down 10 points at one time to a 1-10 team, and there is Cam doing his 1st down poses and Superman poses. Just ridiculous. 1023. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin Lowe, how in the hell has Norv Turner kept his job as Chargers coach for so long? 1024. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF Your guess is as good as mine 1025. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know that's what you meant DSFF, but I just wanted to detail the irony a bit more than you did. And I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one disgusted by Cam Newton's showboating. Cam has been getting on my nerves this season with what I perceive as selfish play. I think he's in it just for himself and isn't a team player. To see him do the 1st down pose while the team, which was 3-8, was down 10 points to a 1-10 team that tragically lost won of its starting linebackers the day before, makes me think that he doesn't care about how his team is doing so long as he gets his name out there. It's one thing to showboat when the team is winning, but if the team is losing, you just look like a clown. His teammate Steve Smith is one of the biggest showboaters out there, but even he understands that you don't act like a superstar when the team is getting their asses kicked by an inferior Chiefs team. If you're a quarterback and you are being outperformed by Brady Quinn (who played very well today), you lose the right to showboat. Also, I want to send out my thoughts and prayers to the friends and family of everyone tragically involved in what happened yesterday morning, especially the girlfriend who got very little coverage from the media. This reminds me a lot of the Chris Benoit double-murder-suicide back in June '07, and thank God that this player didn't take the life of his infant daughter at the same time, as he had to have been very ill mentally to do something like this. I hope that the daughter is in good hands after this because she is perhaps the biggest victim in all of this by losing both of her parents on the same day. I also wish for Romeo Crennel and Scott Pioli a recovery over what had to be an unreal sight of seeing someone kill themselves before their very eyes. I know firsthand what it feels like to see someone die right in front of you, although not nearly as bad as what they had to have seen yesterday, and I hope that they can get over what had to have been a horrible sight. 1026. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It all doesn't matter since Tuesday all we will be talking about is how RG3 beat the Giants @$$e$. 1027. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cam is very selfish. Every option read run has him taking it himself even though he has Williams and Stewart and this year outstanding FB Mike Tolbert. Cam is the leading rusher on that team. Complete bullshit. Yeesh, is it Daytona yet? Between my Panthers and Benjamin Lowe's Cowboys, I will be making a trip to Texas at some point and we will get shitface drunk to drown away our football miseries. 1028. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, The reason Norv Turner kept his job so long is because AJ Smith the Chargers GM doesn't want to admit that he made a mistake hiring Norv after firing Marty Schottenheimer. The thing is I expect the gm and the coach to be fired. The fact the Chargers lost this year a game this year to the Broncos despite using stickum. If you don't remember, stickum is something the NFL banned in 1981 after Lest Hayes had 13 interceptions while using that stuff in 1980. What Stickum did was it gave NFL players an easier to time to catch the football since the substance was like super glue. 1029. cjs3872 posted: 12.02.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Norv Turner isn't even the biggest problem in San Diego. It's not his fault that his roster has been stripped practically bare. That falls on the same GM that fired Marty Schottenheimer after the 2006 season. Remember that in 2009, Norv had an 11-game winning streak to end the season, but lost in the playoffs because he had a kicker that constantly choked when it mattered. and of course, there is their problem at QB, because Philip Rivers is a crippled mess with a bad arm. I've said that before, and other GMs have even been saying that Rivers has lost arm strength during each of the past two seasons, And his unorthodox delivery wasn't going to be effective for very long. As I've said, Rivers is this generation's version of Bernie Kosar. Kosar was a prolific college QB and a top-tier NFL QB for about four or five years in the late 80s, but bad knees and a unorthodox delivery did him in, and he was no longer an effective QB by age 30. The same is true with Rivers. And the irony is that both were coached by Schottenheimer. When the Chargers fire their GM and head coach ter the season, one of the first orders of business is to get a new QB, because Rivers' days as a good QB have been done for two years now. And with the rest of the division hapless and Denver having a QB that doesn't have very many good years left himself, Sn Diego could return to the top of the West within three years, if they get it right. And by the way, don't be surprised if, like last year, the two AFC Wild Cards are Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, even though both are one game behind the Colts. I'm still not sure the Colts will hang on for four more weeks. If that's the case, the AFC will send the same six teams to the playoffs in consecutive years. That would e only the second time since the merger that a conference has the same playoff participants in consecutive years. That also happened in the AFC in 1983-'84, when the playoff teams were Miami, Pittsburgh, Denver, Seattle, and the L.A. Raiders. And David, there's no F1 driver on that list, because there's not been a good F1 driver from the U.S. other than the ones already listed. I don't consider Dan Gurney a F1 driver, but rather a road racer. I would categorize him more as a sports car driver than an F1 driver. And by the way, I wouldn't have gurney on that list anyway, but rather his most successful driver in his years as a car owner, Bobby Unser. And Paul, if Mark Sanchez was going to be benched by Rex Ryan, it was probably going to be for Greg McElroy, who by the way, had some pretty good battles with Tebow in college, with each winning a national championship as a starting QB. Ryan's ego is so big that he'd never bench Sanchez for Tebow, but he would for McElroy, and when he inserted McElroy, the team immediately responded. Saying that, I think Sanchez would be a vast improvement over any QB the team the Jets beat today have. As it turns out, Rex Ryan may have had the QB of the future on his bench all year in Greg McElroy, and didn't even know it. now all the Jets need to do is fire Ryan and replace him with someone who actually cares about offense, and they'll be better next year, but third-best in their division, because the Miami Dolphins will probably be the ones to take over when the Patriots finally do have to rebuild. 1030. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.02.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RG3 IS Over8ted 1031. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wasn't positive about it before, but I'm convinced now that the Jets only brought in Tim Tebow as a publicity stunt, because it's clear that while they don't trust Mark Sanchez, they have no interest in putting Tebow in at quarterback, and jumped at the opportunity today when Sanchez was playing horribly by putting in McElroy because at least then they could use Tebow's injury as an excuse for why they didn't play him. Had Tebow been healthy, I doubt that the Jets would have benched Sanchez, and it's possible that they go on to lose this game against an inferior Cardinals team because Sanchez can't lead his team to victory. Some analysts are suggesting that the Jets play Tebow because he's gotten more reps in practice this season than McElroy, and I've heard others say that Sanchez should start on the road in Jacksonville because he'll be away from the rowdy New York Jets fans. I don't know how you can put Sanchez in the starting lineup after this week. Not only is he playing poorly, but he's not inspiring his teammates either, which is bad for everybody. McElroy and Tebow can at least get that offense going and get the team excited on the football field. I don't know which of those two gives the Jets a better chance to win (although cjs made a great point about why Tebow won't be starting), but Sanchez clearly isn't the answer anymore. I think he can do well for another team, but he's not a good fit for the Jets anymore because the team lacks leadership, which he can't provide. And speaking of the Cardinals, they need to get a quarterback this offseason. They have two guys (Kolb and Skelton) that are just not starting quarterback material, and another guy (Ryan Lindley) who I hadn't even heard of until seeing the stat sheet following the Jets/Cardinals game. Considering that Lindley played even worse than Sanchez did, the Cardinals have probably the worst quarterback lineup in the NFL, or at least a close 2nd to the Jaguars. I think the Cardinals should go after Sanchez this offseason because they actually do have a pretty good defense with several very good leaders like Adrian Wilson, Kerry Rhodes, and Darnell Dockett. I think he would be a good fit because he would have good receivers to throw to, including the elite Larry Fitzgerald, a couple decent running backs, and a very good defense and team leaders to help inspire the team and take some of the load off his back. I also think that Tebow should go to the Jaguars because let's face it, they are the least notable team in the NFL that hasn't had anything to cheer for since '07 when they beat the Steelers in the playoffs. At the very least, Tebow would bring some attention to a struggling franchise and could provide the spark that they need to become relevant again. I'm not saying that he could provide a repeat of what he did with the Broncos in 2011, but he has the ability to inspire his teammates and could only mean good things for the Jaguars. 1032. Schroeder51 posted: 12.02.2012 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would I be considered the odd one here if I said that auto racing was really the only sport that I'm actually interested in? Because that's the truth. I've never really cared for football (probably helped that no one in my family was big on football, either...), I've never been a fan of basketball, and baseball, I've always thought it was more fun to see a game in person than watch one on TV. Am I weird? 1033. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Philip Rivers throws the ball side-armed, which is harder on the arm than the traditional overhead throwing motion already. Throw in his bad knees, and he's putting even more pressure on his arm because he can't move or step up into the throw as well as he used to. It truly is a sad case of what could have been a great career to see the way Rivers has regressed the past couple seasons. Of course, it doesn't help that he has a weak head coach and an incompetent GM that haven't provided him with much help, but even with a better cast of players around him he is starting to become a shell of his former self and is now a distant 3rd among the 2004 class of quarterback rookies, behind Big Ben and Eli who each have two Super Bowl rings (although who's say that Eli would have two Super Bowls had the Chargers been healthier on offense going into the '07 AFC Championship Game). Regardless, I still consider Rivers as the 3rd greatest Chargers quarterback of all-time, behind Dan Fouts and a close 2nd to John Hadl (who led the Chargers to their only league championship in 1963), the latter of whom he could still pass if he can somehow have a career resurgence year. It's a shame that he has fallen off so much the past couple seasons because prior to his injury, I think he was on his way to passing Hadl and at least approaching Fouts as the greatest Charger quarterback of all-time. 1034. Paul posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Would I be considered the odd one here if I said that auto racing was really the only sport that I'm actually interested in?" Yes. I became interested in auto racing well after I had already become a fan of football, wrestling, and to a lesser extent baseball. Those were the three sports that my dad and grandpa always watched when I was growing up, and I just naturally developed a liking for them as well, although I don't pay much attention to baseball anymore. I didn't become a racing fan until just before the 2002 season, and it had nothing to do with family influences like the other three sports did. I don't remember how I became a racing fan, but I do remember that the 2002 Daytona 500 was the first full race I ever watched and I've been a fan ever since. For years, racing was always behind football and wrestling for me, but this year I've been paying more attention to auto racing than football and haven't watched any wrestling lately. So while I've been a racing fan for almost 11 years now, this is the first year that I've been following it much more closely than I have football. 1035. David posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Would I be considered the odd one here if I said that auto racing was really the only sport that I'm actually interested in? Because that's the truth. I've never really cared for football (probably helped that no one in my family was big on football, either...), I've never been a fan of basketball, and baseball, I've always thought it was more fun to see a game in person than watch one on TV. Am I weird?" No, I wouldn't say that, considering that that is exactly how I feel. The only time I'm interested in basketball is during March Madness (a.k.a. the NCAA Division I Men's Tournament). I started disliking football a long time ago, and I really only have a mild to moderate interest in baseball, mainly because I have a favorite team (the Cleveland Indians). 1036. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeesh. Looks like Kyle Busch caused a bunch of wrecked race cars at The Snowball Derby. He finished third. First off, why is he continuing to dip lower and lower in racing Series? Trying to get his mind off the fact the guy he whined his head off about 3 years earlier has done something he hasn't: won a Sprint Cup championship (also put two Top 5 seasons together, and HAS two Top 5 seasons to his name)? What a tool. 1037. Schroeder51 posted: 12.02.2012 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've no problem with being the odd one on here, I'm usually the "odd one" most places on the Internet I frequent, so it's not a problem with me. I'm used to people in real life looking at me like I'm not from this planet when I say I'm not a big sports junkie... To be honest, I guess my family would be an unusual American family because they were never too interested in sports, either (well, outside of my father-his sports have always been golf and tennis, oddly enough). I'm not entirely sure how I actually became interested with racing in the first place...I do know that one of the first memories I can remember was my parents flipping through TV channels while I was three or so, and a NASCAR race at one of the short tracks was on...I think it was North Wilkesboro. I remember Jeff Gordon leading some of the race and Kyle Petty being sick...had to be the '95 First Union 400. As for other forms of racing, those came later on. I first gained an interest in IndyCar racing when I was about 6 or 7 because one of my cousins was very much into it (he later ended up gravitating towards NASCAR). I've learned a lot more about F1 recently (I used to not care for it too much), but I'm still not the biggest F1 fan, partially due to the fact I'm not really diehard enough to stay up to very odd hours of the morning to watch the races. 1038. Eric posted: 12.02.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When it comes to sports, I really only follow football, and racing. I never got back into baseball after the 1994 strike. I really have a had time to watch MLB and it's more than the strike and the steroid scandal. There are counties in the state I live in a state that has counties that still have to pay sales tax for a MLB stadium to this day. When the stadium opened, the daughter of Bud Selig's daughter made a statement that pissed people some people off including myself. She made a statement that basically has her family was responsible for paying for the entire stadium when the state government passed a tax for building the baseball stadium. For building the Stadium, the Selig family actually has problems pay for the stadium from their end. The only basketball that I watch is the NCAA. The NBA is a joke to me for a very time. I saw a few hockey games, baseball games, and Basketball games growing up. I saw 4 football games growing up including 2 for the Arena Football League. I saw a lot more races than I did in hockey, baseball, and basketball combine in my life. I started to following racing in the 1980's like I did for Football. I didn't follow NASCAR before 1993 though as a teenager. The form of racing I first got into was CART back in the 1980's. 1039. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.02.2012 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Would I be considered the odd one here if I said that auto racing was really the only sport that I'm actually interested in?" I don't follow many other sports much either, at least not as passionately as I follow auto racing. I do like to watch baseball and basketball when I can, but when it comes to NASCAR I watch every single race and if I miss it I watch YouTube or NASCAR.com's video clips. Some people say that they can't see how racing is exciting, but everyone has different tastes when it comes to entertainment I suppose. 1040. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just read about the Snowball Derby. Congrats to Erik Jones on winning this big race, leading a race-high 123 laps. He looked pretty good in his ARCA starts this past season, so hopefully he carries this momentum into 2013 where I'm sure he will make some more ARCA starts and maybe even a couple Truck Series starts now that the series has lowered the minimum age requirement from 18 to 16 on short tracks and road courses. Also a good job by Jeff Choquette, who also beat Kyle Busch in the race. Sounds like Kyle angered a couple drivers in that race. He spun out his former late model driver T.J. Reaid on lap 158 of the 300-lap race, which collected Ross Kenseth (oh the irony) and defending race winner Chase Elliott. After congratulating Erik on his win, Chase said in response to what Kyle did "The only thing I'd do different is I'd tell Kyle Busch to not come down here and race with us. He needs to show respect to all drivers." Ouch! Then security had to intervene after the race when Reaid confronted his former boss. Reaid was interviewed afterwards and said "I guess he got pissed off I got him on the restart. Typical him, he's gonna cry." Ouch again! I don't know the specifics of the crash, but it sounds like it was Kyle's fault and he angered two of the three drivers involved enough for them to call them out on camera. And while he wasn't quoted, I don't think taking out the son of your new teammate is the best of welcoming him to the team. It's pretty sad for a guy who's won over 100 total NASCAR races and the 2009 Nationwide Series championship to be called out like that by two up-and-coming drivers that have yet to make a national series start. I don't have a problem with him competing in the race, but you have to have respect for the other competitors, even if they haven't been as successful in auto racing as you have. Of course, this isn't the first time Kyle has been disrespectful to competitors in a lower series, so I'm not surprised. 1041. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Some people say that they can't see how racing is exciting, but everyone has different tastes when it comes to entertainment I suppose." One of my biggest pet peeves is when people mock something that I happen to enjoy, which is frequent for me being that I'm a racing fan from a non-racing state, as well as a pro wrestling fan (though not as big as I once was). Just because some people aren't fans of those two sports doesn't give them the right to mock those of us who happen to enjoy them. I don't like basketball (although I'll watch old games when they come on on ESPN Classic), but that doesn't mean I'm going to make fun of or mock those that do enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks, and those of us who do enjoy certain sports would rather not be mocked for watching them. And don't even get me started on the idiots that use the "wrestling is fake" line to explain why they don't like wrestling. It's like "Okay, if you dislike wrestling because it's fake, then you must really dislike TV shows and movies because they're even faker than wrestling." And of course that's not the case. Idiots. 1042. 18fan posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This might sound biased toward Kyle, but if David Ragan (who was in the Snowball Derby and actually was the pole-sitter) or some other high profile driver that is not the Busch brothers or Tony did what Kyle did, would it be such a big deal? 1043. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, I don't think so because David Ragan (the only other Cup driver in the race) doesn't have the bad reputation that Kyle, Kurt, or Tony have. Hence, he would receive the benefit of the doubt from a lot of race fans and drivers because he doesn't have a reputation for being overly-aggressive or disrespectful on the race track, which none of the other three drivers wouldn't receive (or at least to a much lesser extent than Ragan) because they are looked at negatively by a lot of fans and drivers because of their past antics. Also, you have to look at the fact that Ragan doesn't run as many lower series races as Kyle does, and so seeing a guy like him on the entry list for a lower series race is sort of like an added attraction because he's a name driver that's making an infrequent start in a lower series. Whereas with Kyle, he's always running in he lower series of racing like the Nationwide and Truck Series, and even his own late model car. So he's become overexposed, and when you're overexposed as a driver, your participation in a lower series starts to lose its attraction value and isn't as special as it used to be, to the point where it's almost a nuisance. Add in the fact that Kyle has a bad reputation amongst race fans and now apparently other drivers, and it shouldn't be a wonder as to why we criticize his latest on-track escapade. So to get back to your question, in all honesty no it wouldn't be as big a deal if someone like David Ragan were to cause a wreck in a late model race because he has a better reputation and isn't a frequent lower series double-dipping driver like Kyle is. In fact, it wouldn't be such a bad thing for Ragan because considering his current Cup ride, at least causing a wreck would remind people that he still exists in auto racing. 1044. 18fan posted: 12.03.2012 - 2:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you make some excellent points. I was at the Toyota All-Star Showdown at Irwindale a couple years ago and they made a really big deal about David Gilliland being in the race. Joey Logano ran that race even after he was a Cup driver, but it seemed like when Gilliand ran it there was more hype than there was the 3rd time Logano was there. Some of it was probably because Gilliland is from Southern California, but Logano being there had lost its luster. It also didn't help that Logano had the win taken from him the year before for intentionally wrecking Peyton Sellers on the last lap and tearing up a bunch of racecars. Ron Hornaday was also in that race and I think he tore up half the field by causing two separate incidents and Trevor Bayne rebounded from being a lap down to finish 2nd. 1045. BON GORDON posted: 12.03.2012 - 2:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Im extremely happy and proud of Jeff Gordon. He is truely a blessing to NASCAR and is making a differnece around the world. He became only the third driver to recieve the Myers Brothers Award for lifetime contributions to stock car racing on and off the track in the last 40 years (Kyle Petty/ Harry Gant). Like the 1995 championship speech Jeff was extremely choked up and honored to recieve this award. He is also one Anderson Cooper and CNN's 10 heros for 2012. Which will air on televison some time this week I believe. Whether you like Jeff Gordon or not he is the Bono of NASCAR. 1046. Bronco posted: 12.03.2012 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) " While I disagree with that statement, because the guy in charge of the sport has admitted to how much the sport needs Junior, along with Brian's record of being a schmuck, I do think that they would risk their main attraction's health for the sake of ratings and attendance." Lol, you're continuing to miss the point. No matter what the diagnosis was, if a doctor had told Junior to sit out 26 races because of the same blood clots issue that Vickers had, then there is NOTHING NASCAR would have been able to do about it. Drivers are independent contractors and none of them can be ordered back to work for the sake of ratings and fan interest. This has nothing to do with the drivers involved, whether its a star driver or a start and parker. If for example, Junior or Jeff Gordon decided to retire from NASCAR and move to F1, then Brian France can't hold them back because he knows fans will tune out. As for Junior's recent concussions, Dr. Petty said that he ordered 2 weeks of rest, after which they would evaluate his condition to see if he was ready to drive again. Nowhere did NASCAR tell Junior or his doctors how long he could be out for. The bottom line is Junior did exactly what the doctor told him to do, as far as taking two weeks, and running laps in a closed test to see if he could still drive again and he cleared those tests. If one of the best neurosurgeons gave him the green light to race, then I don't see how anyone else's opinion matters. No two concussions are the same, and just because Craven suffered through some does not make him an authority on the subject. 1047. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 3:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, I think the crowd's reaction to David Gilliland being in the field was a combination of of both his native Californian status and the fact that he rarely runs in the lower series. So it was a treat for the crowd to see one of their native sons, who was entering his 4th full season as a Cup driver, return to his roots for one night. Plus, Gilliland is a pretty likable driver that hasn't ruffled any feather in his career (except for Tony Stewart back in '07, but then again they're friends now. Go figure), so it's not a surprise that he would be cheered by any crowd, let alone a hometown crowd. And also, seeing him running a lower series race meant that he had a good shot at winning, which could have added to the crowd's excitement. If you think about it, Gilliland and Logano are also polar opposites of one another (as are a lot of drivers compared to Logano). Gilliland had to fight and claw his way up the racing ranks in southern California as a 2nd generation driver; eventually got a shot at running full-time in what is now the K&N Pro Series West, winning twice and finished in the top five in points both seasons in small-time equipment; got an opportunity to run some Busch races in '06 driving unsponsored for Clay Andrews, and pulled off one of the biggest upsets in Nationwide Series history by winning at Kentucky over a JGR car; and although he hasn't gotten the breaks in Cup, has proven to be a very serviceable driver for the smaller teams. As for Joey Logano, I don't think I have to paint a picture about how privileged his life has been, considering I think we all already know that. But I think the last lap of the '09 Toyota All-Star Showdown tells you a lot about Joey Logano. Rich kid running in JGR equipment intentionally tears up the cars of several drivers (including Peyton Sellers and Jason Bowles) that are fighting and clawing their way up the racing ladder just like most everybody else, and doesn't have to worry about job security because of his rich kid status and the money he brings to the table. I know a lot of people have just begun to dislike Joey this past season by making Kyle Busch look lovable in comparison, but the writing was on the wall back in '09 when he intentionally wrecked a very talented driver who hasn't gotten the breaks that he has, and tore up several other cars in the process. 1048. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 3:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Bon Gordon, you just made being a Gordon fan sound really lame by comparing him to Bono. Sorry, but I have always had a strong disliking towards his music. 1049. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.03.2012 - 4:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon is the Arnold Palmer of NASCAR... is that better Paul? 1050. cjs3872 posted: 12.03.2012 - 7:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well NicoRosbergFan, I call Gordon the Jack Nicklaus of NASCAR because of how he towers over anyone else in the sport's history when it comes to winning big events, but I see where you're going with that. It was said about Palmer when he played was that, as good (or great) a golfer he was, he was an even better person. The same goes for Gordon (despite what Clint Bowyer might think). As big a mark as he's going to leave on the track, he may be leaving an even bigger one off it with all his philanthropic efforts, which have included more than one overseas venture with former President Bill Clinton, which might say it all there. If he never drove in another race, I'd say Gordon's made an impact on the sport as big, if not bigger than Dale Earnhardt, Sr. did, and seocnd only to Richard Petty among drivers, not just for his on-track success and the impact he had on giving younger drivers a chance in the sport, but also because of his off-track endevours. And it's somewhat ironic that he would receive the Myers Brothers award, since one of his biggest fans early in his career among his rivals was none other than Danny "Chocolate" Myers, the ex-Richard Childress Racing crewman from when RCR was the best team in the sport, who is the son of Bobby Myers, one of the two brothers after whom the award is named after. 1051. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon is the Arnold Palmer of NASCAR" I like it! And I agree with cjs' point about how like Palmer, Jeff Gordon has left his mark in both his profession and his philanthropic activities outside of it. Plus, he has a very good name to his credit and is highly regarded by a lot of drivers and people that work within the sport of auto racing as one of the classiest competitors out there. I've always felt that the greatest endorsement in NASCAR was when Jeff Gordon personally endorsed a fellow driver, which I think makes Brad's championship that much more special because of the great things that Jeff said about him and why he'll be a great champion for the sport. 1052. David posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I took the liberty of calculating the 2011 season standings with cjs's points system. Here are the top 20 after 26 races: 1. Kyle Busch - 1052 2. Jimmie Johnson - 1024 3. Carl Edwards - 1021 4. Jeff Gordon - 1005 5. Kevin Harvick - 967 6. Matt Kenseth - 961 7. Kurt Busch - 913 8. Ryan Newman - 901 9. Tony Stewart - 853 10. Brad Keselowski - 849 11. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 833 12. Denny Hamlin - 812 13. Clint Bowyer - 776 14. A.J. Allmendinger - 749 15. Greg Biffle - 740 16. David Ragan - 732 17. Martin Truex, Jr. - 728 18. Marcos Ambrose - 727 19. Mark Martin - 727 20. Kasey Kahne - 720 At first glance, it looks like not much of difference. That is, until we realize that Dale Earnhardt, Jr.'s lack of a win and the fact that he is out of the top 10 means that he would not have made the Chase, which means that the two wild cards would be Denny Hamlin...and DAVID RAGAN. 1053. BON GORDON posted: 12.03.2012 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haha. Well Paul I happen to love Bono's music and dont think he's lame at all. Bono is one of if not the biggest philantropist in the music community and I was comparing Gordon to him in that reguard. However, I think Arnold Palmer works and so does Paul Newman in some reguards. 1054. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.03.2012 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bon Gordon, you just made being a Gordon fan sound really lame by comparing him to Bono. Sorry, but I have always had a strong disliking towards his music." Good, I'm not the only one. Although, from my perspective, he is a lot like Bono. The kind of person who is easily reproducible for the masses. You know how they say when they made Cale Yarborough they broke the mold? Nobody says that about Jeff. Sorry, I know this is coming off as another anti-Jeff post, but that is just how I view Jeff and face he puts on for the public. And although this should not take away from the award (and in my mind it doesn't) they really shouldn't have Burt and Jason Myers presenting that award. I have got to watch them race and be interviewed at my hometown track of Bowman Gray Stadium in Winston Salem. Let's just say, much like Brian France and Dale Jr, they suffer from the "third generation curse" pretty badly. Especially Burt. 1055. jabber1990 posted: 12.03.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, also the first race I saw in its entirety was the 2002 Daytona 500, ironicly my stepdad started collecting those 1:64 scale 50th anniversary cars around 98/99, and it got me intersted in NASCAR this is now the same person who will do anything to prevent me from watching the race(s) but he can go to hell 1056. BON GORDON posted: 12.03.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow ok. What do you mean by Jeff not breaking the mold? He broke every mold a NASCAR driver was. But again I dont know exactly what you mean. 1057. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 12.03.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just out of interest in terms of prestige and value in what order would you rank the southern 500 and world 600 in. I know the Daytona 500 is number 1 and many view it as equal to a championship in terms of prestige, but if you had to win 1 would you pick the southern 500 or world 600. I know the drivers regard the brickyard as number 2, but with the poor crowd attendance it has obviously lost its shine with the fans. Do you still regard it as more important to win than the 600 etc.Thanks. 1058. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always viewed the Southern 500 as the second most prestigious race in all of NASCAR, after the Daytona 500. Even though they broke the greatest tradition in the sport by taking away its Labor Day weekend date, getting rid of one of its races, and making it a night race, I still think that a win at "The Granddaddy of Them All" is the second biggest win you can have in NASCAR. cjs may disagree with me as I think he believes the Brickyard 400 to being the 2nd most prestigious race in all of NASCAR, but I've always considered a win at Darlington as being much more prestigious because it has a longer history in NASCAR than Indy has. Plus, it may be the most difficult race to win because of the difficulty of the track and the magnitude of the win that can cause drivers to collapse under pressure, which is why I hold Regan Smith in such high regard because he held off Carl Edwards in an inferior car and won that race in 2011 (which factored into Carl losing the championship that year). It takes a mentally tough driver to be able to win a race of that magnitude, and his inability to seal the deal in a big race with a winnable car is why Carl isn't an elite driver in this sport, even though he has the talent to be just that. But after the Southern 500, I would have the Brickyard 400 in 3rd place and the World 600 in 4th. Even though the World 600 has lost its luster in recent years, because of its past status as a Crown Jewel event and the length of the race, I put it in 4th place. Then after that I would put down the Bristol night race, the spring Talladega race, either of the Martinsville races (depends on which one you think is more prestigious), and the Atlanta race. And due to its higher speeds and difficulty just to finish the race because of the high horsepower it requires, as seen from the HMS cars this year, I think the Michigan race is one of the biggest wins a team can have because it shows how durable their engines are. 1059. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Miguel Paludo will return to Turner Motorsports in the Truck Series next season, just as I suspected. Turner plans on running three full-time Trucks for sure, possibly even four. With Jeb Burton in the lineup and Kyle Larson most likely going full-time next season, I think this is even more reason for why James Buescher and maybe even Nelson Piquet, Jr. (unless Turner runs four full-time Trucks) will be moving up to Nationwide full-time next year. I heard a rumor that Piquet may be replacing Brad Sweet in the #38 Nationwide car, but other than that I'm not clear as to what his 2013 plans are at the moment. But I'd say Buescher is a lock to go to Nationwide next year. 1060. cjs3872 posted: 12.03.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Kubica fan Ireland, the thing about the Brickyard 400 is that it may be NASCAR's version of the U.S. Open golf championship, in that it tests every facet of a team to the very limit. In short, the Brickyard 400, perhaps more than any other big race, will identify the best driver and team more than any other big event on the NASCAR circuit because there is no more thorough examination of a team over a single race on the eintire circuit. In order to win at the Brickyard, the engines must perform at peak performance, every nut and bolt must be fastened and every mechanical part checked because of how hard it's going to be run, the pit crew must not make errors, because of the limited pit stops in the event, combined with how hard it is to make up for a mistake in the pits. The driver must be spot on for the same reason, because although IMS is one of the easiest tracks on the circuit to drive, there may also be no other track that invites mistakes for that very reason, and of course, as Juan Montoya found out a few years ago, you can not commit a pit road infraction. And of course, you must also get good fuel mileage (just ask Dale Jarrett and Todd Parrott), and you can not succumb to the pressure. In other words, more than any other track on the circuit, you must do everything right to win at Indy, and then have Lady Luck also smile on you. There's a reason that, except for Paul Menard in 2011, only the best, or those that do not succumb to pressure, have won there. In fact, the winner of the Brickyard 400 has won the championship in the same year as often as the winner of the Daytona 500 has, despite being around for 35 fewer years. The winner of the Daytona 500 has won the championship at the end of the season eight times in 54 years, with Richard Petty accounting for four of them (1964, '71, '74, and '79). (The others were Lee Petty in 1959, Cale Yarbrough in 1977, Jeff Gordon in 1997, and Jimmie Johnson in 2006.) The winner of the Brickyard 400 has also won that season's championship eight times, but in only 19 years, with Jimmie Johnson doing it three times (2006, '08-'09), Jeff Gordon doing it twice (1998, 2001), and three others also accomplishing the Indy-championship double (Dale Jarrett in 1999, Bobby Labonte in 2000, Tony Stewart in 2005). 1061. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.03.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, the quote was "when they made Cale Yarborough, they broke the mold" meaning there can be no other Cale. There is only one. Jeff, on the other hand, has a public persona that many (most notably JJ) have copied successfully. Look modern, dress nice, say nothing controversial, don't directly answer any controversial questions, deflect all controversy that involved you, use cliches at all the appropriate times.I guess the term I am looking for is "generic". Something that offends nobody. The thing about being generic is that it allows you to reach a larger audience, much like U2's incredibly generic music reached tons of people. There is nothing to be turned off by. That is how Jeff was the face of NASCAR as they reached other markets. How many people heard somebody like Dale Earnhardt or Richard Petty start to talk and immediately said "dumbass redneck" and quit listening, or heard Geoff Bodine start to talk and said "know it all Yankee" and quit listening, or heard Matt Kenseth start to talk with his dry Wisconsin accent and said "boring" and quit listening. Probably a bunch. It is hard to get region specific people to bring in interest from other areas. But Jeff has no accent of any kind, always had the modern look of whatever the era was or is, and never made people immediately turn away. While that has prevented many fans from truly connecting to him the way they did with Dale or The King (or what I think will happen with Brad), it allowed him to be consumed by the masses. That is why, over his twenty year career, he has had FIVE different listed hometowns: Vallejo CA, Pittsboro IN, Wherever It Was Him And Brooke Lived In Florida, Manhattan NY, and now Charlotte NC. When he first arrived, he was billed as a Hoosier as NASCAR was desperate to gain a grip on Indianapolis and smelled blood in the water up there with the infighting and horribly debilitating split. He was the Hoosier face of NASCAR for those disheartened Indy Racing fans in the Midwest. Then, as they began shifting West towards LA with the Fontana track and also going to the Miami vicinity in the late 90s and early 00s it was more acknowledged that he actually was born and raised in California, only spent about 5 years in Indiana (with the open wheel split, they had Indy by the balls by that point), and lived a very Floridian lifestyle in his big house in Florida with his beautiful wife Brooke where they had the perfect marriage (whoops!). Then NASCAR turned its sights full bore to New York City and tried like hell to get a track built up there. Their public face? The recently divorced Jeff who was spending most of his time in his Manhattan apartment. When that attempt to be a New York accepted sport crashed and burned to the ground in a smoking ball of flames, and with NASCAR trying to make ammends with its core base, now he lists himself from Charlotte where he has a home. No, I am not disputing he was a trail blazer for NASCAR, a chameleon who could be whoever the people around him needed him to be which allowed the sport to reach new areas, and that he is exactly what just about every owner and sponsor wanted from a drivers ever since. They just forgot to break the mold after he showed up. We are still feeling the effects of that to this day. 1062. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So basically what you're saying is that Jeff is not only a "jack of all trades" on the race track, but off of it as well? Now that takes skill. 1063. cjs3872 posted: 12.03.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I would reverse the positions on the Coca-Cola 600 and the Southern 500, but a main reason I have the Brickyard 400 #2 behind just the Daytona 500 is not only the prestige of the track, but because the Brickyard 400 requires a thorough examination of every part of a race team, and to me, the Coca-Cola 600 and the Southern 500 do not provide a thorough examination of a team and a drver. for instance, because of the style of track, the Coca-Cola 600 does not necessarily penalize mistakes the way Indy does, because it's much easer to pass at Charlotte than it is at Indy, so recovering from a mistake is easier. Plus unless the mistake is late in the race, there's plenty of time to recover from a mistake. Darlington doesn't quite measure up to Indy because it also does not require a thorough examination of a team, though it does test the driver to the limit. It does not test the engines the way Indy does, and will test them even less when the track surface ages. However, Darlington, like Indy, invites mistakes and will penalize them, though not the way it used to because of the SAFER barriers, which reduce the impact of driver errors at every track. However, because it is harder to pass at Darlington, error-free pit stops are more important than they are at Charlotte, but the track is just not as big a showplace as Charlotte is, hence the Southern 500 is fourth on the list of most important races, behind the Coca-Cola 600. And Paul, I don't get how you figure that the Coca-Cola 600 has lost any of it's luster, unless you're talking about the Chase, which has robbed all the important races of some of their luster. If anything, the Coca-Cola 600 is more important now than it's ever been, since it's the unquestioned crown jewel of the "cookie-cutter" track races that dominate the Chase, nd since the Chase is dominated by so many of these kinds of tracks, the Coca-Cola 600 may be the best barometer of how a team might perform in the Chase. And that extra 100 miles is what separates it from any other oval track race in the world, andhas since it was first run in 1960. And like the Brickyard 400, it's winners usually represent the best the sport has to offer, though there have been exceptions. And most, if not all repeat winners of the 600 are among the sport's all-time best, as it provides the most thorough examination among all the big races, except for the Brickyard 400. 1064. MStall41 posted: 12.03.2012 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most Prestigious Races in NASCAR, according to a simple rating system I have personally developed (95-100=Extremely Prestigious, 75-95=Very Prestigious (Any race with a 75 and above qualifies as a major), 55-75-Moderately Prestigious, 50-55-Mildly Prestigious, 50 and below-Negligible Prestige 1. Daytona 500 @ Daytona - 100 2. Brickyard 400 @ Indy - 96 3. Coca-Cola 600 @ Charlotte - 84 4. Southern 500 @ Darlington - 78 5. Aarons 499 @ Talladega - 76 6. Irwin Tools Night Race @ Bristol - 76 7. Coke Zero 400 @ Daytona - 73 8. Labor Day Classic 500 @ Atlanta - 72 9. Tums Fast Relief 500 (Fall Race) @ Martinsville - 71 10. Good Sam Roadside Assitance 500 @ Talladega - 68 11. UAW GM Quality 500 @ Charlotte - 66 12. Last Race Before the Chase 400 @ Richmond - 63 13. AAA Texas 500 @ Texas - 63 14. Ford 400 @ Homestead - 62 15. Martinsville 500 @ Martinsville - 62 16. Food City 500 @ Bristol - 59 17. Kobalt Tools 400 @ Las Vegas - 55 18. Finger Lakes 355 @ Watkins Glen - 54 19. Samsung Mobile 500 @ Texas - 54 20. Quicken Loans 400 @ Michigan - 51 All other races have negligible prestige levels ranking below 50 1065. David posted: 12.03.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(which factored into Carl losing the championship that year)" At first I thought "Uh, no, he would have lost it anyway", but then I realized that that win would have been worth 3 more reset points come Chase time. It's amazing what one position can do for you. 1066. David posted: 12.03.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interestingly enough, to add to this marquee race discussion, the driver who won both Darlington and Indianapolis was the best producer (refer to post #620) out of drivers who ran every race. 1067. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I'm going to use DSFF's description of Jeff Gordon to describe why I don't think the Coca-Cola 600 is as special as it used to be, and that is because now anyone/anything can be designed in that way and provide the same result. Just how Jeff was a trailblazer for modernizing the sport, for better or worse, Charlotte Motor Speedway was a trailblazer for modernizing the sport as well for the worst. Back when Atlanta was a true oval and tracks like Texas, Kentucky, and Chicago weren't on the schedule, I agree that the Coca-Cola 600 was truly a very big race, especially since it was the longest race on the schedule and was somewhat of a homecoming for the NASCAR teams due to its central location in Concord, North Carolina. But just like how Jeff has lust his luster since now he's only one of many carbon-copy drivers, the Coca-Cola 600 has lost some of its luster due to the amount of tracks that are very similar to it, and now instead of being its own type of track, it's now become one of many with very similar characteristics. Nowadays, watching a night race at any of the 1.5-mile tracks looks the same no matter which track it is. The biggest reason why the Coca-Cola 600 is still regarded as a huge race is because of its past status as a "Crown Jewel". I agree that it is still one of the biggest races of the year, but it isn't as special as it used to be. And with the lack of drafting on the intermediate tracks with the current car (which will soon become the former car), the race becomes even less special because of the bad racing. Dale, Cale, and The King were all their own men, and nobody can replicate them. On the other hand, Jeff, Jimmie, Carl, Tony to an extent nowadays, and pretty much every Nationwide and Truck driver fit the mold of "cookie-cutter drivers". There's nothing very special about their personalities, although I do hold Jeff in higher regard because he was the first of his kind and hasn't given me any reason to believe that it's just an act, which each of the other three I mentioned have (especially the emotionless juggernaut). The same goes for Charlotte. I hold it higher regard than I do Texas, Kentucky, and Chicago because at least it was the first of its kind, just like Jeff was of his kind. 1068. Eric posted: 12.03.2012 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Southern 500 to me ranked higher than the World 600. It is not a chase issue. The World 600 lost 2 things that it had. The first thing is parts don't break like they used to like what happened to Ken Schroeder in the 1995 600. The World 600 was supposed to be a test of crew driver, pit crew and reliability of parts of the car. While parts do fail in a race, there isn't a lot of teams that having some type a failure in the same race anymore and engine issues in the 600 isn't a come as it once was. The 600 is only now on endurance of driver, and pit crew. The 2nd thing is Charlotte is now one of many one and half mile track on the cup circuit. The race is still special due to the 600 miles and being on Memorial day weekend, but its not what it used to be. Southern 500 has passed the test of time and the World 600 hasn't not as as the Southern 500. I always found the Brickyard 400 overrated as a major Indianapolis Motor speedway is a legendary track and so the Indianapolis 500. The problem over there is the race has more importance to the drivers than the fans. Darrell Waltrip himself admitted that he never expected to race at IMS because he races stock cars. Darrell has a lot of respect for the track. Jeff Gordon was in USAC before NASCAR because he wanted to race in the Indy 500. I followed the Indianapolis 500 back in the 1980's, and the truth is this events is only major because of the track it is on and how the drivers and owners feel about the track. The track itself is made for Indy Cars, not Stock cars. The Brickyard 400 for the most part is won by drivers that will be in the NASCAR hall of fame or on the Bubble. Paul Menard and Jamie McMurray are the exceptions of the winners. Ricky Rudd and Kevin Harvick are drivers that are considered bobble drivers for the Hall of fame. Rudd has 23 cup wins, only 1 major and never got a cup championship. Harvick has multiple majors, but only 19 cup wins. Montoya's speeding isn't caused the race track as cjs3872 made it sound like since it is a major. The fact Drivers are caught speeding at race tracks that aren't majors also on the cup circuit. 1069. cjs3872 posted: 12.03.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, the thing with Montoya's speeding penalty was that it showed that he isn't a driver that can be trusted in pressure situations. The fact that he's never won on a oval has proved that. And you're right, that error had nothing to do with the track. What I simply said was that IMS invites mistakes, and there, mistakes are costlier than at most tracks. And Paul, a major reason why there's not much mechanical attrition in the 600 any more has to do with them moving the finish to darkness to keep from having it compete head-to-head with the Indianapolis 500 in 1993, which greatly improved that event's profile. For many years, that was the one bg NASCAR race that nobody saw because that would have meant turning off the Indianapolis 500, since the entire first half of the Coca-Cola 600 and the second half of the Indianapolis 500 overlapped, so that meant the first half of the 600 was hardly ever watched, except for those that had no interest in watching the Indianapolis 500. But remember that as recent as 2008, the leader ran into trouble in the final miles of the 600. 1070. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Montoya is wildly inconsistent at dealing with pressure. On one hand, he choked twice at Indy by speeding on pit road with the best car in '09, and then hitting the wall J.R. Hildebrand style coming out of turn 4 while running in the top 10. And on the other hand, he successfully handled the pressure in both of his Cup wins, not running out of fuel at Sonoma in '07 while future teammate Jamie McMurray (who I would have figured would be better at conserving fuel than Montoya) ran out with a couple laps to go, and then holding off Marcos Ambrose and Kurt Busch at Watkins Glen '10 with the best car in the field. Now Montoya hasn't been in contention for wins as of late because of EGR's struggles over the past two seasons, although he was running 2nd at Watkins Glen this year before the lower control arm broke on the left front (which could have been due to how hard Montoya was driving the car so early in the race), so he hasn't had the chance to choke like he did in '09 and '10 when his cars were really good. But here's a fun fact: In each of the four restrictor plate races (the only races where EGR had even a slight chance at winning this year), Montoya DNF'd in all four of them (three crashes, one engine failure). So he had no shot at being a contender and possibly choking this season. And the fact that both EGR cars finished in the top 22 in points despite having no top five finishes has a lot to do with the lack of competition this past season, which as cjs has pointed out may be what keeps Junior from falling out of the top 15 or 20 with what I expect to be a down year for him. There aren't that many competitive teams right now that are capable of winning, so I hope that this switch to HMS engines at least makes the EGR drivers contenders on the tracks that they're capable of winning on, which would include the road courses, restrictor plate tracks, and (if they're lucky) intermediates and Indy. By the way, I am now expanding my definition of a competitive car in the Cup Series to "any car that intends on running the full race every week." 1071. murb posted: 12.03.2012 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know a lot of people have just begun to dislike Joey this past season by making Kyle Busch look lovable in comparison, but the writing was on the wall back in '09 when he intentionally wrecked a very talented driver who hasn't gotten the breaks that he has, and tore up several other cars in the process. I remember that sideswipe BS that Logano pulled on Sellers in that Irwindale race. This and his entire sense of entitlement and ego that he carried throughout the 2009 season are the reasons why I came to dislike him. Throughout 2009, he had this swagger to his step that said "I'm a Cup driver now, and even though I'm only 19 years old, I deserve your respect". I think this along with his silver-spoonery turned everyone off from him (other than the teenage girls that think he is cute, the only demographic he really has any fans in it seems like). And then of course there was this year. In the past he's done the double dipping in the lower series, but this year he really took it to the extreme. With Kyle running his own NNS team (which will change next year, apparently - Kyle will run some JGR NNS stuff again), this opened the door for Logano to run even more NNS races. Sure, he won 8 or 9 times or whatever it was, but he pulled some ridiculous moves. Over the course of the year, there were about 2 or 3 instances where he reverted back to his Irwindale persona and totally wrecked underfunded lapped cars. And aside from a Mayfield-esque Pocono win, he was virtually invisible in Cup all year, which finally led Joe and JD to say "screw you". So basically, I guess I just reiterated for about the 1,000th time some of the reasons why I don't like Logano. I'm gonna stop talking about him on here for the rest of the off-season, just because he really gives me headaches. I don't know how he'll do a Penske, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will have to have at least a mini breakout year of sorts if he wants to prove to people (including me) that he is a worthy driver. 1072. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can only speak for myself, but I was pretty much indifferent about Joey during his first three Cup years. I didn't like him, I didn't dislike him. He was just sort of there. I actually had more positive feelings towards him more than anything after he stood up to Harvick and Harvick's crew (where there's one, the other is always close by) at Pocono '10 and basically called Harvick out on his manhood. Maybe he went a little too far with that "His wife wears the firesuit in the family" line, but I felt it was warranted because of who it was directed at. And for the record, I was actually happy for him when he won at Fontana in the Nationwide Series this year, even though it broke a 4-race win streak for Nationwide regulars, because it was only his 2nd win in the past year. I didn't begin to dislike him until Talladega when he wrecked a bunch of cars after turning Michael Annett into Kevin Harvick, injured Eric McClure and put him out of action for five races, then wins the race and is unapologetic afterwards. Earnhardt was visibly shaken after wrecking Rusty at Talladega '93, Gordon was in tears after turning and flipping Schrader at Talladega '95, and this punk is rejoicing and celebrating after causing a wreck that took out a bunch of cars and injured a fellow competitor. That's when I lost a lot of respect for him. Of course, I lost all that respect for him at Dover when he wrecked Tim Bainey, Jr. driving for the upstart SR2 Motorsports team because he "wouldn't get out of the way." Hey asshole, why don't you think of all the crew members that weren't fed with a silver spoon that had to work their tails off to get that car up to speed every week, and now have a wrecked race car because your privileged ass couldn't wait THREE FRIGGIN SECONDS to pass him on the straightaway. Or try passing him on the outside rather than expect him to just move out of the way for "his royal highness." For him to go to victory lane after Ryan Truex continued on the family tradition of choking and put all the blame on Bainey for getting wrecked, and then go on Twitter after the race and be upset that Rusty Wallace had the nerve to call you out for your aggressive driving during the race. In case you haven't noticed Joey, Rusty is an analyst and his job is to analyze and critique the race, not hop up-and-down on the Joey Logano bandwagon (which doesn't exist). For those two races, I have very little respect for Joey Logano as a driver or a person. And as far as how well he did in JGR's Nationwide car, as Clint Bowyer stated back in 2008, "A monkey could win in that car." Seeing how well Joey did in that car in 2012, I'd say that's a pretty accurate statement. 1073. Eric posted: 12.03.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing with Joey is he will have a decent cup career if you look at the drivers that won at Pocono including Mayfield. Jeremy Mayfield was the worst of the Pocono winners before Joey. Mayfield did finish in the top 10 in points 3 times. That meant Mayfield wasn't a bad driver. Kyle Petty was the 2nd worst driver that won at Pocono because Before Joey won here. The Fact is Kyle was a good driver back in the early 1990's. Outside of Kyle Petty and Mayfield and Joey, rest of the cup drivers either were cup champions or were drivers that you wasn't shocked that they won here. 1074. Eric posted: 12.03.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Instead of here, I should typed Outside of Kyle Petty,Mayfield and Joey, rest of the cup drivers either were cup champions or were drivers that you wasn't shocked that they won at Pocono. 1075. Paul posted: 12.03.2012 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I wouldn't call Kyle Petty's Pocono win a surprise because he was among the top drivers in the sport at the time of his win. He won at Pocono in '93, coming off a 5th place points finish in '92 (with a mathematical shot at the championship entering the final race), and went on to finish 5th in points again that season. While Kyle only won 8 races in his Cup career, including 6 of the 7 wins in SABCO Racing's history, he was always a threat to win on the "driver tracks" as he was a better driver than his record shows due to the ineffectiveness of Felix Sabates' equipment on the aerodynamic tracks. Only one of Kyle's wins came on an aerodynamic track, and that was the '87 Coca-Cola 600 when he was driving for the Wood Brothers, who have always specialized at the big race tracks. And Pocono is a lot like Indy in that is a very hard race to win because it's very hard to pass and can be very hard on the equipment with the long straightaways and sharp turns. Even though Pocono doesn't fit the mold of a "driver track" like Rockingham, Kyle's best race track, it is a track that forces drivers to conserve their equipment, especially when it was a 500 mile race, because of how hard it can be on equipment. It also shouldn't be a surprise that Kyle won at Pocono because of his success at Rockingham. Kyle's greatest trait was his ability to conserve his equipment throughout the course of a race, which could be due to what he describes as being a lazy race car driver. Of course, that should come to no surprise since his best track was Rockingham, which Kyle himself described as a "Lazy man's race track" because the harder you race your car, the worse your car becomes throughout the course of the race. Pocono is a lot like that because it rewards drivers that don't abuse their equipment, which is a trait that a lot of championship drivers have. In a way, I think that the two hardest tracks to win on are Indy and Pocono (especially when it was a 500-mile race). Both tracks are difficult to pass on other than the wide frontstretch at Pocono and require perfection from the driver and crew throughout the course of the race because it's so difficult to regain lost positions (of course, it's easier now because of how valuable wave-arounds are on these 2.5-mile tracks). Indy is more difficult to win because of the magnitude surrounding a win at the Brickyard, but I think a win at Pocono is the second most difficult race to win because of its similarities to Indy, along with corners that are more difficult that Indy's that require a very diverse car setup because of the differences in the three corners and straightaways. cjs has mentioned that the drivers that do well at Indy are the biggest threats to win the championship because of how difficult to win, but I think Pocono is right up there with Indy in that the drivers that finish up near the front are the ones that have the shot at winning the championship. Gordon, Johnson, and Hamlin are arguably the best Pocono drivers in the sport, and it should be no surprise that they have been at or near the top of the point standings for most of their career. As for Joey Logano, sometimes drivers just gravitate towards certain tracks and always run well there, even if they don't run well anywhere else. McMurray has Talladega, Montoya has Watkins Glen, Kyle has Richmond, Bobby has Martinsville, and now Joey has Pocono. I don't think Joey's win at Pocono means anything other than that he just happens to gravitate towards that particular race track, and always runs well there no matter how good of a year he's having. 1076. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.03.2012 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have the Southern 500 ranked #2 personally. The World 600 isn't what it used to be with the way the track has become yet another faceless mile and a half, plus with equipment becoming pretty much bulletproof, it takes away the "will it hold together" intangible that used to dominate the last 100 miles. But it is still a historic race on a holiday weekend. And to me, the Brickyard 400 has worn out its welcome. When it first came on the schedule, the timing couldn't have been better both for NASCAR who could rightfully point to that race as the "we have officially arrived as the king of American motorsports" and for fans of Indy who were seeing a lot of dissention and infighting, and then the deathblow of a split. It was the perfect marraige for a while. But after many years of nothing but aero push follow the leader racing, some humiliating tire debacles ('08 and to a lesser extent '04) and the regrouping of open wheel racing to enough of an extent that the Indy 500 is no longer just another race outside the hardcore motorsports enthusiasts (basically us), I get the feeling Indy can do without us. 1077. BON GORDON posted: 12.04.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ranking the Top Ten Races (Crown Jewel Events): #1: Daytona 500(Daytona)- It doesn't amtter if it's bikes or street cars or whatever, it's still Daytona. The Great American Race is and will always be number 1! #2: Brickyard 400(Indy)- Indy will never wear it's welcome for me. Yeah attendence is down and for many it might be a boring race but there is still so much history here. It doesn't matter if it's mostly Indy Cars. NASCAR must stay here and I know this is a trophy every driver wants in his trophy case. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Jimmie Johnson have all won multiple races here. #3: Southern 500(Darlington)- It's not run on Labor Day anymore but like Indy there is so much history here and it's all rich in stock cars. You truely have to be a great driver to win here. Gordon, Earnhardt, Yarborough, and Pearson have all won this event many times. #4: Coke/World 600(Charlotte)- Longest race of the year in a track where everyone wants to win because it's almost everyones' homebase. #5: Coke Zero 400(Daytona)- It's a shorter version of the 500 mile event but it's still Daytona baby. #6/7: Either Race at Bristol- Brsitol is back baby in a big way. Great names have always one here and I can't rank one over the other. Most may lan towards the night event here but honestly if I was a driver I wouldn't care which one I won as long as I can say I won at Bristol! #8/9: Either Race at Martinsville- Marinsville is NASCAR's oldest and smallest track. It's famous for there yummy pink hot dogs and also famous for there trophy, A Grandfather Clock. So much history here and like Bristol either event is equal as far as greatness. It doesn't matter which one as long as you can say you won at Martinsville. One is in the chase but I don't care. #10: Finger Lakes 355 @ Watkins Glen- Like all the other tracks on this list there is so much history here. Truely some of the greatest drivers have won here. Martin, Gordon, Stewart, and Wallace to name a few. 1078. Eric posted: 12.04.2012 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, I don't know if IMS really doesn't need us. I am saying that because What happened for the Indycars during the off season. Randy Bernard, who replaced Tony "I am even worse the Brian France" George was forced out and a lot of race fans are losing faith in Indycar as a result despite now having Mark Miles as the new CEO of Indycars. Randy Bernard was better than Tony George was despite that being easy to do. The fact Randy Bernard was forced out despite improving Indy Car. I do agree with you on the Brickyard 400, and the World 600 on the comments you made. 1079. Bronco posted: 12.04.2012 - 2:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No list of crown jewel races is complete without Talladega. Spring or Fall race it doesn't matter but Talladega will always be one of NASCAR's most defining race tracks. 1080. 18fan posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle kicked everyone's ass that day at Pocono and then got out of his car in victory lane with a video camera because he had just finished filming during one of his charity motorcycle rides. 1081. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nico! Your Skins and RGIII won. I personally thought the Giants would crush them, gain a ton of momentum, then lose their first playoff game. Now I am tempted to predict another ugly back door playoff enterance and playoff table run. 1082. BON GORDON posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion Talladega is kinda overrated especially now. I refuse to add it to my crown jewel racing list. Me and Im sure most every driver would rather win every track on my list before they'd consider winning at Dega. Its a chess match and a complete wild card. My list is a jewel itself. Lol. 1083. BON GORDON posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) However Daytona is kinda a wild card luck of a draw kinda race too but hell its Daytona. I dunno, I just never understood why Talladega is considered a crown jewel race. 1084. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.04.2012 - 4:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I know! Yippee! Down with the haters and up with possibly the greatest rookie season EVER! 1085. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2012 - 7:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What made Dega such a big deal were the high speeds and the Series sponsor having the naming rights to the Spring race. Restrictor plates and Sprint took care of that. 1086. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 10:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Robert Griffin, III sells the fake handoff better than any rookie quarterback I have ever seen. That sell that he made in the 2nd half that completely faked out Jason Pierre-Paul and left a big hole on the left side was both embarrassing for the Giants and showed off what may be Griffin's greatest assets: His fake and his legs. I've always rooted against the Redskins (although I was pulling for them in '07 during that magic playoff run with backup quarterback Todd Collins and coach Joe Gibbs) since I used to root for the Cowboys, but have since become a Giants fan, but I gotta give credit to RG3 and the Redskins offense and defense for making the Giants look very bad in the second half. 1087. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do hope that RG3 changes his running style in the future because I feel that one day he's going to get seriously hurt because he didn't slide or run out of bounds. There was a play last night when the Redskins were going into "garbage time" mode where he had to stay in bounds, and rather than just slide on the ground to keep the clock moving, he sort of dove of extra yardage and a Giants player gave him a straight shot to the back of his non-throwing shoulder, which is key to selling that fake handoff that he does so well. I give him props for being maybe the least touted player in terms of toughness in the NFL, but he isn't doing himself any favors by taking as many shots as he has. Of course, a lot of that is because the other teams realize how much of a threat he is and are trying to take him out, but if he doesn't modify his playing style while having a target on his back, he's just asking for somebody to take him out with a shot to the ribs or the shoulder with the way he's been playing. I'm not saying he should play softer, but he should play smarter if he wants to last in this league. He's already suffered a concussion this season, which is uncommon for rookie quarterbacks, and yet is still putting himself in harm's way. And just looking at the Redskins' backup quarterback situation, I would rather have a healthy RG3 than Rex Grossman or Kirk Cousins. I know how good Rex can play from his years with the Bears, but overall the "Bad Rex" overshadows the "Good Rex", and for the sake of the team, RG3 better stay healthy for the remainder of the season since they're still 1 game behind the Giants in the division. They do have the advantage with having an easier remaining schedule, featuring the Browns (a better team than their record indicates) and Eagles (the biggest disappointment in the NFL), but they'd be better off with him healthy than injured. 1088. David posted: 12.04.2012 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Swan Racing (formerly Inception Motorsports) is all set to go RACING next year. They will receive Triad engines and will be a self-sponsored team, as well as several other associate sponsors. 1089. Eric posted: 12.04.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I did mention on Post 1073, that Kyle Petty was a good driver in the early 1990's. Remember the early 1990's were 1990 to 1992. You could say 1993 even, but that is it. I don't know why you don't consider 1992 in the early 1990's since wanted to correct me on Kyle about 1992 since I mention Kyle was a good driver in the early 1990's. Remember Kyle's career went south in the mid 1990's. While Kyle Petty had a top 5 in points season in 1993, I thought of the early 1990's were Kyle aka 1990 to 1992 when talk about Kyle Petty's racing career in the 1990's. The thing is when people talk about Kyle Petty's cup career, they point to the early 1990's as his peak as a cup driver. 1090. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I didn't dispute what you said about Kyle in terms of his driving talent, which I agree with you that he was at one point on e of the top drivers in the sport. But I just wanted to explain why I didn't believe his win at Pocono in '93 was, or should be looked at as, a surprise. You mentioned in an earlier post that the wins that Kyle, Mayfield, and Joey had at Pocono were more shocking than the champions that won there like The King, Earnhardt, Allison, Gordon, and Johnson. I just wanted to state that I didn't believe those three wins to be shocking at all. Mayfield won at Pocono twice in his career, so the fact that he won there at all wasn't a fluke because he did so twice. Joey has always run well at Pocono and so it shouldn't be a surprise that he won there this season. And Kyle was always very strong on tracks that required the driver to conserve their equipment, such as Rockingham, Watkins Glen, and Pocono, and even though he wasn't competitive in the latter half of his career, his win there shouldn't be taken as a surprise. I suggesting that you didn't say that Kyle was a great driver at one point, because you did. All I was saying was that even though he only won 8 times in his career, the fact that HE is on the Pocono winner's list along with some of the sport's greatest drivers shouldn't be a shock to anyone to actually follows this sport because, as both of us pointed out, he was among the sport's best back in the early '90s. 1091. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I suggesting that you didn't say that Kyle was a great driver at one point, because you did." That should say "I wasn't suggesting..." at the beginning. 1092. cjs3872 posted: 12.04.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I'll believe that whatever the #30 team calls itself will be actually racing when I see it, because they're usually a S&P team, hence my not listing them in my blog post when I listed the 2013 Cup series roster. but when they did race, they did show quite a bit of potential, as the Brickyard 400 showed, even competing with some of the heavily backed teams in that crown jewel, nearly finishing in the top 20. And Paul, I don't think the Redskins have it THAT much easier than the Giants. Each has a game left with Baltimore and Philadelphia (who has beaten the Giants already this season and now actually has a QB), and let's remember that the Redskins also have a game left with Dallas, who would love nothing better than to ruin the Redskins' season, though they've gotten back into contention themselves, but have a murderous final four games, and could play great and lose all four. And I'll trust these Giants long before I trust these Redskins. And by the way, I believe Andrew Luck is having a far better rookie season than Robert Griffin III is having, considering the talent around him, and the Colts' 8-4 record. And the Colts have a much better chance of making the playoffs, though I don't see them getting in. But the only one of the rookie QBs I see making the playoffs is Seattle's Russell Wilson, who has victories over Green Bay (who Luck's Colts have also beaten), New England, and now Chicago. Sure Luck's turned the ball over far more, but he's running a much higher risk offense than the one Griffin's running, and doesn't have a running game or a defense, and yet could win 10 or 11 games this season. I think Luck's having the greatest season for a rookie QB in NFL history, or at least second to Ben Roethlisberger in 2004, and Luck has Ben's old coordinator helping him now. 1093. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.04.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS head to the bleachers and fulfill your destiny 1094. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.04.2012 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't buy into Luck when he blows over half of his passes (24 for 54 on Sunday; Holy Jesus that's bad). 1095. cjs3872 posted: 12.04.2012 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That may be true, NicoRosbergFan, along with the three interceptions against Detroit, giving him 21 turnovers for the year, but as I mentioned, he runs a high-risk, high-reward offense, and combine that with him being a rookie, and he's going to have games like that. But when you consider the overall lack of talent he has around him, the mere fact that he has his team at 8-4 and leading the AFC Wild Card standings, mistakes and all, is nothing short of a miracle, because that team was predicted by many to be the worst team in the NFL this season, and yet he has them back where we've been accustomed to seeing them the past decade, which is back among the playoff contenders. That's why I rate Luck's season as either the greatest ever by a rookie QB, or second to Ben Roethlisberger's 2004 season. And by the way, 391 yards on 24 completions is more than 16 yards per completion. 1096. Sean posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Eric, the thing with Montoya's speeding penalty was that it showed that he isn't a driver that can be trusted in pressure situations." If you're going to make your marquee race argument (which I find overrated) he has lots of them. Indy 500 (admittedly competing against almost no one since supposedly Ganassi spent 10 times as much money as all the IRL teams and Jimmy Vasser was the worst CART champion ever), 24 Hours of Daytona (twice; either the biggest or second biggest U.S. sports car race depending on whether you think it or the 12 Hours of Sebring is more prestigious), the Monaco Grand Prix (biggest F1 race), the Long Beach Grand Prix and Michigan 500 (the two most prestigious CART races after the split). He won ALL the big races until he came to NASCAR, and he won most of them in either his first or second attempt (he's still the ONLY driver to win the Indy 500 in his only attempt). You can say he chokes now in NASCAR, and I definitely think this was the worst overall season of his career, but if you're going to use the marquee race argument with him in general just because of one Brickyard, you're wrong (he wasn't going to win 2010 anyway after he got back in traffic). Hell, watch JPM's battle with Michael Andretti in the 2000 Michigan 500 (which I view as the best oval finish in history in any series) and tell me he chokes. If he's a choker, he surely should have lost that one (of course then you're probably going to say something about Michael never winning at Indy...) Yeah, he sucks now, but he's definitely an all-time racing legend and should make the IMHoF on his first ballot regardless of how much he hasn't done in NASCAR (NASCAR HoF? Of course not...) He still had a better transition than Hornish, Allmendinger, Franchitti, Villeneuve (how could a driver SO GREAT from 1994-1997 do literally NOTHING since?), etc..., etc... Now compare to Tony Stewart. He's been in the Indy 500 (against the worst fields in history) and not won (by the way, if he takes Roger Penske's offer, he will get his butt kick especially since Ganassi has had much better stuff than Penske at Indy of late). He's competed in the 24 Hours of Daytona and lost in the last half hour. He's been in contention to win several Daytona 500s and lost in the last ten laps. MUCH more of a choker than Montoya is. Stewart's obviously the far better NASCAR driver, but besides that, Montoya OWNS him and if Stewart had been racing in CART in '99 (even for Ganassi) Montoya would have kicked his butt (although I do think Stewart would have been closer than Vasser was). Montoya's just a shitty NASCAR driver. I'm disappointed, considering how AWESOME I thought he was in his CART days, especially at Indy when he responded to Al Unser, Jr.'s "You have to respect the Speedway or it will BITE YOU HARD" with "All the corners are the same; road courses are much harder". Obviously, Montoya winning and Unser failing to finish makes this much funnier. Sort of reminiscent of the Montoya/Harvick Watkins Glen scuffle. Didn't Montoya say something like, "I have stood up to Michael Schumacher in Formula One. Who cares about Kevin Harvick?" (or am I imagining dialogue I WISH would have happened?) As much contempt as Montoya may show, he will never come close to topping Unser's late-career off-track shit. I've given up on him (he was even doing one-offs in Grand-Am cars and wrecking opponents that could have beaten his Ganassi teammates Scott Pruett/Memo Rojas, which is just appalling), but for a while, he was awesome. "- Richard Petty, NASCAR - Dale Earnhardt, NASCAR - Jimmie Johnson, NASCAR - Jeff Gordon, NASCAR - David Pearson, NASCAR - Cale Yarborough, NASCAR - Darrell Waltrip, NASCAR - Junior Johnson, NASCAR - Ned Jarrett, NASCAR - Bobby Allison, NASCAR - Rusty Wallace, NASCAR - A.J. Foyt, Open-Wheel and NASCAR - Rick Mears, Open-Wheel - Mario Andretti, Open-Wheel - Al Unser, Open-Wheel - Michael Andretti, Open-Wheel - John Force, NHRA Drag Racing - Don Garlits, NHRA Drag Racing - Shirley Muldowney, NHRA Drag Racing - Tony Schumacher, NHRA Drag Racing - Kenny Bernstein, NHRA Drag Racing - Warren Johnson, NHRA Drag Racing - Bob Glidden, NHRA Drag Racing - Steve Kinser, World of Outlaws - Dan Gurney, Formula One If you ask me, I'm disappointed. The writer stated that he worked with specific numbers in each category; 11 drivers from NASCAR, 5 from "IndyCar" (his own word there), 7 from NHRA, one from World of Outlaws/Sprint Cars, and one from Formula One. How does one NOT include Tony Stewart on such a list?? To say nothing of a few others who should have been on there. Also, only ONE Formula One driver?!" Too many Cup and NHRA drivers. Too few sports car drivers. Mario Andretti also counts as a Formula One driver and besides Mario and Gurney, there aren't many other American F1 drivers of note but I'd still list Phil Hill. Remove: Jimmie Johnson Junior Johnson Ned Jarrett Rusty Wallace Shirley Muldowney Tony Schumacher Warren Johnson Add: Mark Donohue Parnelli Jones Bobby Unser Hurley Haywood Scott Pruett (I'm serious - he was a terrible Cup oval driver and mediocre CART driver, but he has TEN titles between IMSA/Trans-Am/Grand-Am and might just be the second best U.S. road racer behind only Haywood) Bobby Rahal (primarily for his versatility - 3 IndyCar titles, 1 Indy 500 win, 1 24 Hours of Daytona win, 1 12 Hours of Sebring win...not many have that; if you're going to have Michael Andretti, he's a must since Rahal usually beat Michael in title battles head to head) Reluctantly, Tony Stewart (no, his Cup career alone doesn't match Johnson, Johnson, or Ned Jarrett, but I'll give him some props for the IRL title against no one, even though I find his career outside Cup MASSIVELY overrated). That would be a better list but I'm probably forgetting someone obvious. 1097. Sean posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmm, I forgot Phil Hill and he was the first U.S. F1 champion. I'll drop Michael Andretti for him. 1098. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't forget cjs that the mere fact that he has his team with a winning record after the team lost its coach early in the season after Chuck Pagano had to take a leave of absence is almost a miracle in and of itself. Not just because of the emotions that have come with it for that team, but just the fact that very rarely do teams that have their head coach replaced at some point in the season, whether it be due to firing or a leave of absence like this, end up with a winning record at the end of the season, which the Saints are finding out how hard that is as they are two games below .500. In fact, the Colts are now mathematically locked into having a non-losing season this year, regardless of how many of their remaining games they win, while the Redskins still have to win at least twice to avoid having a losing season. RG3 may be a better candidate for Rookie of the Year because of his better numbers, but Andrew Luck is a better candidate for NFL MVP due to how much the Colts have improved this year over last year, including a 6-10 win turnaround from last season (depending on how many more times they win this season. And the Redskins do have an easier schedule than the Giants do. Three of the four remaining teams on the Redskins schedule having non-winning records, while only two of the four remaining teams on the Giants schedule have non-winning records. Now both teams have tough games against the Ravens, with the Redskins having a home field advantage that may be a non-factor due to the closeness between the two teams' stadiums, as well as winnable games against the struggling Eagles. But I'm more interested in the other two games. The Redskins have to face an underrated Browns team and an underachieving Cowboys team, while the Giants have to taken on an inconsistent Saints team and a great Falcons team. Considering how bad the Giants are late in the season against teams that they should beat, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they lost to both the Saints and the Eagles (who by week 17 might have their quarterback of the future Nick Foles playing very well), while the Redskins go on to beat the Cowboys because of their inability to close out a season with one of the few quarterbacks in the league who knows how to both play with clutch and choke on a regular basis. I predict that the Redskins finish the year off 3-1, losing only to the Ravens, while the Giants finish off 2-2, losing to the Falcons and Ravens with a good chance of blowing games to the Saints and Eagles. If my prediction comes to fruition, both the Redskins and Giants would finish the season 9-7. And while they each have a win against each other, the Redskins would have the better divisional record and would win the tiebreaker as a result. So the Giants would need the Bears and/or Seahawks to have a similar final four games as they do to keep from missing the playoffs altogether, because the Redskins seem to have the momentum going into these final four games. 1099. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Villeneuve (how could a driver SO GREAT from 1994-1997 do literally NOTHING since?)" I don't consider leading 42 laps, including 9 laps under continuous green-white-checkered restarts while trying to conserve fuel, before being punted out of the way by an underachieving Justin Allgaier, qualifying as "doing literally nothing". "Sort of reminiscent of the Montoya/Harvick Watkins Glen scuffle. Didn't Montoya say something like, "I have stood up to Michael Schumacher in Formula One. Who cares about Kevin Harvick?" (or am I imagining dialogue I WISH would have happened?) I don't recall Montoya saying that, but he was totally in the right to not back off from Harvick and give him a couple shoves in the process. Harvick is the biggest bully in the sport and for him to approach a driver who won't back down like Montoya, without the aid of his crew to back him up, and be made a fool of in the process was pretty sweet. Of course then he acted like a tough guy in his interview after looking like a complete chickenshit when confronting the other driver, similar to his incident with Ricky Rudd at Richmond '03. And then his idiot car owner started to blame Montoya for the incident even though Martin Truex, Jr. punted him into Harvick, whom Harvick wasn't the least bit concerned about blaming for causing the incident. Of course, one year later at Sonoma it was Harvick who divebombed a corner and took out several cars, including the 2nd and 3rd place drivers Stewart and McMurray, and pretty much got off scot-free because McMurray and Ron Fellows, the other driver involved, have too much class to blame someone for a racing incident, and Stewart wouldn't dare blame his best friend for something (one time he even took the blame for Harvick wrecking him, I think it was at Bristol in '07 or '08). The reason why the Watkins Glen incident was widely talked about and the Sonoma one wasn't is because Kevin Harvick, the biggest prima donna in the sport, blew the first one out of proportion with his "gunfighter" attitude and wanting to fight Montoya (who kicked his ass), and couldn't blame or pick a fight with anyone because it was 100% his fault. Harvick may have grown up a little bit this year (although not by much), but he has proven time and time again why he's the biggest tool in the sport. Also Sean, I like your list of greatest American race car drivers better than the original one. I'm glad that you listed Scott Pruett because he is massively underrated by the fans and media who focus more on his lackluster NASCAR career than his amazing sports car racing career. 1100. cjs3872 posted: 12.04.2012 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, it might be outdated, but I think I can get the list that ESPN/RPM2Night did in 1999 when they listed the 50 greatest American drivers of the 20th century, and then based on that, I can put active drivers among them. They did that to have auto racing's version of the SportsCentury list of the 50 greatest American athletes of the 20th century, none of whom were race drivers. If I do that, it will certainly be a blog subject, though I won't list all 50 at once, but rather either two lists of 25 or 10 lists of five each.I might also do that here on the comments page, as well. But I will say this. Aside from those 50, only one or two drivers would break through, the most notable of them being Jimmie Johnson. 1101. cjs3872 posted: 12.04.2012 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul, I wouldn't sell Cleveland short, especially since the Redskins have to play them in Cleveland. After all, Cleveland has already beaten both Cincinnati and Pittsburgh in Cleveland. I would actually rate the schedules of both the Redskins and Giants as close to even, though the Redskins do hve a slightly easier schedule than the Giants, but it's noy by as much as you think, since two of the remaining opponents are the same for each team, Baltimore and Philadelphia. And since Baltimore still has to play both the Giants and Redskins, as well as Cincinnati, they may find it tougher than they expect to seal their dision title, especially if they can't beat Washington. And the same goes for the 49ers, who put their playoff positioning in jeopardy because they couldn't beat the Rams this season. 1102. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.04.2012 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick definitely walks loudly but carries a small stick. I have never liked him. If he is so tough, take your helmet off and fight one on one. After the wreck with JPM at The Glen, he got pushed around by Juan, then did his usual "I wanna kick his ass" tough guy talk. YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE ASSHOLE!! 1103. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I gave the Browns credit when I mentioned them in my post. While I do think the Redskins will beat them because they have three road wins this season over better teams (Saints, Bucs, and Cowboys; although none of them are that much better than the Browns), I do think that the Browns will put up a fight as they are a much better team than their 4-8 record would indicate. There's a good chance that the Browns will upset the Redskins, but I just think the Redskins have the momentum needed to win that game. I see the Redskins going 2-2 over the final four games at worst, and I see the Giants going 2-2 at best as they have a tendency to play poorly late in the season against mediocre teams. The Giants would have to hope for a Browns upset for the Redskins, or even pull out a victory against the Ravens or Falcons to win this division. So long as they have an equal or better record than the Redskins over the final four games, they will win the division, but after the loss last night, there's a good chance that might not happen. I hope I'm wrong, but that loss was pretty costly, especially since it cost them their tiebreaker to the Redskins. 1104. Paul posted: 12.04.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And getting back to the Harvick/Montoya "fight" for a moment, I love how the ESPN announcers were all like "Harvick isn't the kind of guy you wanna mess with." Bull...shit. Montoya is about five inches shorter than Harvick and hadn't even been racing in stock cars for a year at that point, and he was pushing Harvick around like it was nothing. If anything, Montoya isn't the kind of guy you wanna mess with, especially since he won't hesitate to take you out on the race track, like he did to Stewart at Homestead '09 or half the drivers in the field at Sonoma '11. "After the wreck with JPM at The Glen, he got pushed around by Juan, then did his usual "I wanna kick his ass" tough guy talk. YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE ASSHOLE!!" There's an old saying that fits well with this. It goes: Big talk, small...well, I'll let you guys figure that one out. Makes sense considering how his wife wears the firesuit in the family (I don't like Logano any more than Harvick, but that was a great line). 1105. murb posted: 12.04.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not surprisingly, Mike Ford has been hired by BK Racing. This has been going around for a couple months, so now it is official. He's gonna oversee the entire operation, and he may end up as crew chief on one of the cars. 1106. David posted: 12.04.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This makes two terrific hires by BK Racing in the past two months. Pat Tryson was also hired in October. 1107. 44andJoe posted: 12.04.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just noticed that the driver pages now include All-Star and qualifying race results. Way to go, R-R team! 1108. cjs3872 posted: 12.04.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, now we know where Clint Bowyer believes he got the license to bully (and lie to) other drivers this past season, because he believed he could get away with the sane kind of things, not just with Jeff Gordon, but he tried to bully other drivers, like Jimmie Johnson and Denny Hamlin, among others, But he messed with Gordon one time too many, and got what he deserved. Unfortunately for Joey Logano and Aric Almirola, they also got caught up in that mess. Logano had some critical comments for Gordon, but I'm not sure whether or not he still thinks that way, and we never did get Almirola's take on the matter. But Bowyer still won't talk to Gordon. It seems that joining Michael Waltrip Racing and having the year he had has turned Bowyer into something of a diva in he sport, and I never had that opinion of him prior to that, so maybe being Harvick's teammate for a number of years, but without the firm hand of Richard Childress (and to a lesser extent, Jeff Burton) to guide him, it seems that Bowyer has had Kevin Harvick's personality rub off on him with no one at MWR to keep it in check. And to make matters worse, Michael Waltrip seems to want someone with that kind of personality driving for him, since he was like that himself, something that could come back to haunt his team for some time to come, because when Mark Martin leaves and/or retires, MWR will be without a leader, and Bowyer proved himself unfit to be that leader this past season. 1109. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not a Clint fan, but he is seen as anything but a diva in the garage. The drivers have nothing but praise for him. Even Jeff seems legitimately bummed that Clint won't even look at him. And if Jeff's chicken shit move at Phoenix after WRECKING HIMSELF the first time aroung is Clint "getting what he deserves" then the sport is screwed. It was not built on drivers just rolling over for others. I guess Jeff is the only one allowed to rub fenders with other drivers. Even Jimmie Johnson, a driver who has passed Jeff historically, was fine with Brad rubbing fenders with him at Texas. Of course Jimmie also won that race since he is not just a shell of his former self so he wouldn't be mad, he got rubbed a bit and still won. 1110. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Read this FREE article by David Smith (Keselowski fans may find it interesting): http://www.motorsportsanalytics.com/free-articles/2012-1118-keselowski.html 1111. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I would have agreed with you about Bowyer until this year, because his attitude seemed to change immensely this year. For some reason, he seemed to think he could get away with anything. Making that idiotic move on that restart at Martinsville was one thing, but then flat-out lying to Jeff Gordon's face about it afterwards was something totally different. And then continuously racing Gordon the way he did, including knocking him around at the end of the fall race at Martinsville, and then intentionally trying to cut down his tire late at Phoenix, and yes, I believe he meant to do that, Gordon had enough and retaliated. I also agree that Gordon went too far on that nd should never have done what he did. That much we can all agree on, but Gordon had to do something. But Bowyer was racing other drivers the same way. Early in the fall race at Martinsville, he was roughing up Denny Hamlin and Jimmie Johnson the same way, so it wasn't just Gordon he was doing it to. But how he raced others is not where he seems to have changed. Where he seems to have changed is his attitude about it, and I blame that on the fact that he has a car owner that encourages this kind of attitude. From what I hear, Bowyer even bristled when others began to have fun regarding his run through the garage area after the Phoenix wreck during the Awards Banquet and the related events at Las Vegas. I agree that drivers should race each other as hard as they can, but they should do so in a fair manner, and the last time I checked, making stupid moves, trying to cut others' tire down, and pressing them to the walls is not what I call fair racing. But then lying about it, as Bowyer did, both at Martinsville and at Phoenix, makes it even worse. And by the way, the way Brad raced Jimmie at Texas near the end of that race was also borderline dirty to me, because he intentionally hit Johnson in the door, as if to say "I might not win this race, but you're not going to, either". He was trying to see to it that Johnson didn't win that race, and if Kyle Busch, who was third, ended up winning it, then so be it. 1112. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.05.2012 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree... until this year I had a great deal of respect for Bowyer... now I have none. 1113. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm in total agreeance with Nico's post. As someone who used to be a fan of his, I am extremely disappointed by Clint's attitude this year to the point where I feel let down by the man. It isn't just the way he's been racing, it's his attitude and cockiness off the track that has really bothered me this year. I remember back in '07 when he was having a typical RCR season (always finishing races and contending for top tens, but never winning) and he was the only Chase driver without a win entering the Chase, and I started pulling for him to get a win, especially since he lost a lot of positions upon entering the Chase. So I was pretty ecstatic to see Clint not only win the first Chase race at Loudon, but also finish 3rd in the points that season. I was never a big fan of Clint's, but I saw him as a driver that I could pull for as a "backup plan". That's why I am saddened by his actions this season, as I feel let down by him on a personal level. At this point, he's sort of like an ex-friend to me now. I can't stand to look at him, I can't stand to hear his voice, when I see a 5-hour Energy commercial or an interview with him I either change the channel or mute the TV. I don't want to be bothered with him anymore. He's now in the same category as Denny and Carl for me now as drivers that used to be among my favorites, but let me down as a fan and now I can't pull for them anymore, although Clint has bypassed them on my list with his undeserved sense of entitlement. With 5 wins in 6 seasons and no serious championship bids entering this season, he had no right to act like he owned the race track and run into drivers who had at least earned acting that way if they so chose to do so like Jeff, Jimmie, and to a lesser extent Denny. And of course, those guys don't do that because they have too much class to race that way, even Denny, who has never offended me with his on-track attitude. Of course, part of Clint's new diva personality is do to having Michael Waltrip, the biggest diva race driver of all-time, as a car owner. The fact that he was letting cameras into his race shop for an in-depth look at MWR is repulsive and soul-selling enough, but to include footage of the brawl following the Phoenix race, the race that officially took Clint out of championship contention, suggests that Waltrip loved the attention that he and his team got afterwards. If he was really offended by that incident, wouldn't he just try to forget about it like any other person, including myself? No, because he has no shame. He wasn't embarrassed by this incident at all. In fact, he loved the attention that he got from it because it gave his show ratings (none of which came from me). I'll be he was in favor of this incident because in his mind, it was probably better than just losing the championship gracefully like every other contender did because it gave his team publicity. And now this guy is going to announce the first 13 Cup races for next season? That's pathetic. Both Fox and Michael Waltrip are pathetic. 1114. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again, what was Bowyer supposed to do at Martinsville? Hold his position and get passed by Newman? He made the right move, he just drove it in too hard and took all 3 out along with some others behind him. That is a legitimate mistake. When you are sitting there 3rd on a narrow short track with two cars with 100 laps on their tires and you are the first in a pack of cars with at least two new tires, that is a dicey situation. He had to make his move quick, and did. He just drove in too hard, but Gordon and Johnson were sitting ducks anyways. And can somebody get a video of Jeff's comments after the same race in 2005 when he ran all over Kurt Busch. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E. And here is one other question to Rainbow Nation: Jeff again used Kurt up at the same track in the Fall of '10, to which Kurt responded by wrecking him on the straightaway. Was that Jeff getting what he deserved? Of course not, it was a bullshit move just like Jeff's was. Just like Dale at Richmond '86 was a bullshit move by Dale. Of course by puttering around and waiting for Clint, that moves his deal at Phoenix to a "chicken shit" move. 1115. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he is seen as anything but a diva in the garage. The drivers have nothing but praise for him." Denny is well-liked by a lot of drivers as well, but that doesn't change the fact that he is among the biggest divas in the garage. Clint may not be a diva on the track, but his attitude and constant whining and deferring the blame towards other drivers, such as blaming Reuti for why he HAD to divebomb Jeff and Jimmie at Martinsville and acting as if Jeff had to reason to wreck him at Phoenix after running into him in at least three different races this year. On the track, he's the new "Ironhead", or at least according to Mike Joy. Off he track, he's a "real man" who shoots animals and collects classic cars, while also whining and acting like the victim whenever he gets roughed up to hard. Forget the expression "a wolf in sheep's clothing", Clint is a sheep in wolves' clothing. I mentioned in my last post that I consider Clint an ex-friend for how he has let me down this past season, but due to his new stats as a diva, perhaps I should consider him an ex-girlfriend instead. If he was a real man like he acts like he is, wouldn't he talk to Jeff after the Phoenix race and settle things? Instead, we have ourselves a little cold war between to former friends. And for all you history buffs out there, a cold war is considered by many to be a "woman's war" because there is no talking between the two sides, which in a way is worse than a fighting war. cjs, I wasn't upset by Brad running into Jimmie at Texas because Jimmie did a similar thing to Jeff at Texas in 2010, except that contact wasn't a battle for the win like this one was, so Brad's incident wasn't as bad in my eyes. I was however a little bothered by his drifting up the track to block Jimmie at Chicago because it was forcing Jimmie to drive a different line, while also putting Brad in harm's way for getting run into from behind. Plus, I have always considered blocking to be the biggest dirty move on the race track when it isn't for the win, and found that to be more distasteful than him running into the side of Jimmie at Texas. "Even Jimmie Johnson, a driver who has passed Jeff historically," Let's see what Jimmie had to work with: Better equipment, a manufacturer that was the best in the sport for his entire championship reign, equipment that doesn't break from driving too hard, cars that can be repaired much easier, having the Chase that decides the championship by the last 10 races rather than all 36 races (which fits Jimmie's style), the "lucky dog", and in his last two title years, the wave-arounds. Everything was in place for Jimmie to have this fantastic championship run because it fit his style of being a sprint racer, not an endurance racer like Jeff has proven to be. With equipment that can't break from his hard driving style, a points system that decides everything by a 10-race stretch, and a welfare system that makes it easy to recover from mistakes, everything was on the table for him to have great success. Now to his credit, he took full advantage of everything that was in place. But I disagree with the idea that he has surpassed Jeff historically when he was gift-wrapped an easier way to winning the championship by going for broke (and many times going broke) throughout the season because the only thing that matters in the regular season is wins, while the 10-race stretch at the end of the season is perfect for him because while he can go 10 races without making mistakes and "going for broke", he could never go a full season of doing that because he's far too mistake-prone. Jeff did it for the final two-thirds of '98 in equipment that was out-matched by the Fords because he isn't mistake-prone and can at least out-perform his equipment. Jimmie couldn't do that because he makes too many mistakes and would cost himself the championship as a result. 1116. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Newman was a good two car lengths behind Clint because he held back on the restart while Clint decided to go for broke and got broke with his failed divebomb. Newman wouldn't have gotten to him and passed him because a.) he wasn't close enough to get to him, and b.) he has patience on the race track. In fact, his patience is what won him the race as he patiently waited for "the Red Sea to part" in front of him and went from 5th to 1st in one corner. That being said, I don't really have a problem with Clint divebombing the leaders going into turn 1 because he's trying to win the race too. It was a poorly executed maneuver that made him look like an idiot, but at the time I'm sure it looked like a brilliant move from his vantage point. What I have a problem with is who he did it to, and I'm not talking about Jeff Gordon, I'm talking about a driver who he has taken advantage of throughout the course of the season, which just happens to be Jeff. And for Clint to flat-out lie to Jeff 's face at Martinsville and tell him that he got shoved there by Newman is what I would call a chickenshit move on his part. You don't lie to a man's face like that, especially when it happens to be a friend that wants to know why you tried making it 3-wide and didn't bother to slow down going into the corner. I guess it takes a real man to lie to your friend like that, not to mention blame two drivers (Newman and Reuti) that had nothing to do with it for why you screwed up. Because Clint Bowyer is the epitome of the "every man" that works on his cars, shoots animals that can't shoot back, drinks beer with his no talent country music friend, has bleached blonde hair and a fake tan, plays "Ironhead" on the race track and bitches off the race track, blames other people for his mistakes, and lies to his friend's face. What a man... And you wanna talk about hypocrites, Clint may be the biggest one out there nowadays. He bitched about David Stremme racing him too hard at Nashville '08, but had no problems running Jeff Gordon into the wall at Martinsville this fall. He blamed Montoya for hooking himself into the wall and taking himself out of Chase contention at Atlanta '11, yet had the nerve to say that Jeff had no reason to be upset with him at Phoenix '12. And called Michael Waltrip "the worst driver in NASCAR" at Bristol '08 (although he's pretty accurate on that statement) for getting hooked by Casey Mears, but then he goes out and divebombs Jeff and Jimmie at Martinsville '12 (a much dumber move than getting yourself wrecked) and then blames Newman and Reuti for making him make that mistake. But then again, it takes a real man to talk out of both sides of one's mouth and employ the "do as I say, not as I do" method as an excuse for why you're allowed to make mistakes, but other drivers aren't. Clint Bowyer. A real man's man. 1117. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And can somebody get a video of Jeff's comments after the same race in 2005 when he ran all over Kurt Busch. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E." People do change, as cjs and Paul pointed out with Clint Bowyer (with whom I'm not still sure whether to like or not). That incident was over seven years ago. What if Jeff feels remorse for the way he's acted? What incidents (and I'm honestly asking this) this year have proven Jeff to be a hypocrite? "'Even Jimmie Johnson, a driver who has passed Jeff historically,' Let's see what Jimmie had to work with: Better equipment, a manufacturer that was the best in the sport for his entire championship reign, equipment that doesn't break from driving too hard, cars that can be repaired much easier, having the Chase that decides the championship by the last 10 races rather than all 36 races (which fits Jimmie's style), the "lucky dog", and in his last two title years, the wave-arounds. Everything was in place for Jimmie to have this fantastic championship run because it fit his style of being a sprint racer, not an endurance racer like Jeff has proven to be. With equipment that can't break from his hard driving style, a points system that decides everything by a 10-race stretch, and a welfare system that makes it easy to recover from mistakes, everything was on the table for him to have great success. Now to his credit, he took full advantage of everything that was in place. But I disagree with the idea that he has surpassed Jeff historically when he was gift-wrapped an easier way to winning the championship by going for broke (and many times going broke) throughout the season because the only thing that matters in the regular season is wins, while the 10-race stretch at the end of the season is perfect for him because while he can go 10 races without making mistakes and "going for broke", he could never go a full season of doing that because he's far too mistake-prone. Jeff did it for the final two-thirds of '98 in equipment that was out-matched by the Fords because he isn't mistake-prone and can at least out-perform his equipment. Jimmie couldn't do that because he makes too many mistakes and would cost himself the championship as a result." Please, let us avoid this subject. 1118. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Please, let us avoid this subject." Believe me David, I don't want to talk or hear about this subject anymore than you do. But I'm not the kind of person who will sit idlely by while someone else makes remarks that I find to be untrue, and thus feel the need to tell them that. Imagine if someone were to come on here trying to learn about NASCAR and see all of DSFF's comments about why Jimmie is better than Jeff and think "Well it must be true since nobody is coming to Jeff's defense." I'm not asking people to change their minds just because of what I, cjs, and others have said in Jeff's defense as to why he is superior to Jimmie, but I am asking people to think about it. People like DSFF present their case as to why Jimmie is superior, people like myself and cjs present their case as to why Jeff is superior, and then those that are undecided on the subject can judge for themselves as to which of the two all-time greats is better than the other. For those that agree with DSFF, while I strongly disagree with you, I can at least respect the fact that you considered the opposite opinion before making your own. That's what I'm trying to do. Actually, if you think about it, this may be the greatest race car driver debate of all-time (or at least on this board) because there are valid points to be made on both sides, not to mention the fact that they always bring out long posts in support of either candidate and can sometimes last for days on end. 1119. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "b.) he [Newman] has patience on the race track" True. His Top 15 Efficiency is +10.0, which means he finishes in the top 15 10.0% more than he runs in it. 1120. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In Truck Series news, Joe Denette Motorsports and NTS Motorsports have merged and will field three full-time Trucks next season. Last yaer, JDM fielded the #9 for Ron Hornaday and for 8 races fielded the #24 for Max Gresham before closing operations of the 2nd Truck, while NTS fielded the #14 for Brennan Newberry for 9 races last year. So next year, Hornaday will remain with the team and has in fact signed a 2-year contract with the team, Newberry will compete full-time (although he is ineligible for Rookie of the Year), and the #24 Truck will be split between at least two drivers. That team could have an RCR connection because Kevin Harvick will drive the #24 Truck in both Martinsville races next year. 1121. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to post #1120, Bruce Cook was named director of competition. I'm guessing this means he is not with JR Motorsports anymore. 1122. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I haven't really been strong on Newman in the past, but I think I'm going to start rooting for him this season. He is one of the few hard-nosed "old school" race car drivers left in NASCAR, and although he doesn't have a flashy personality off the race track, he comes off like a genuine nice guy, although having a college degree has given him somewhat of an ego. Plus with the Danica situation, the possibility that he may be a lame duck driver, and now having secured sponsorship for the full season after losing U.S. Army, he has earned some sympathetic points from me. I doubt he'll make the Chase next season and there's a chance he may not stick around after 2013, but I hope he does well because he's one of the few drivers that won't sell out or let his ego get the best of him on and off the race track. Speaking of drivers that won't sell out or let their egos get the best of them, I can't wait for the future Cup drivers like Buescher, Kligerman, Ty Dillon, Piquet, Blaney, Larson, and Coulter reach Cup and replace some of the divas and prima donnas that have made the sport become unbearable in many ways. I see a lot of potential from these guys and also have great respect for their personalities on and off the race track, and I see them as the drivers who will take this sport to the next level once they reach Cup. I said this before and I'll say it again, as a Gordon fan, I hope that James Buescher is the guy who takes over the #24 once Jeff hangs up the helmet. I am a big fan of Buescher both on and off the race track and think he has the potential to go far in this sport. He has already overachieved in Turner's equipment, and I think he would be the perfect guy to take over the #24 once the time is right. And if not Buescher for whatever reason, I see Parker Kligerman as another viable option for the future as well. 1123. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For anyone in the Charlotte/Concord area, there will be a test for teams with the new rules package at Charlotte Motor Speedway on December 11th and 12th, and the front grandstand will be open and free to the general public. There are 14 drivers currently on the list to participate in the test, with Dale Earnhardt, Jr. being the only driver listed by name. Also, Jeff Gordon and Brad have already tested the new car and seem very optimistic about its potential for next season, and I'd imagine that they would be at the test as well. 1124. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mentioned about a month ago that Brendan Gaughan would be running full-time for RCR in 2013 in either the Nationwide or Truck Series. I thought it would be the Nationwide Series at first, but now it's official that he will drive the #62 South Point Truck for RCR next season in the Truck Series, with Shane Wilson serving as the crew chief. His renumbered team will obtain the #22 Truck's 2012 owner points that Joey Coulter earned last season. Also, Tim George, Jr. will be driving the #2 truck full-time in 2013, so RCR will field three full-time trucks in the Truck Series next season. This explains why Kevin Harvick will be running two races for JDM in 2013 because there is no room for him at RCR with both George and Gaughan going full-time. 1125. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2012 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, If Jeff used up Kurt as much in that Martinsville race as you imply he did, then yes, he got what he deserved when Kurt wrecked him, but Kurt was smarter in that case because he setled that piece of business without anyone else getting involved. And let's not forget that Jeff also spun Kurt out at Sonoma earlier that season, so I believe he got exactly what he deserved from Kurt on that day. But I don't think there was anything over the top in terms of him spinning Kurt out in 2005. No less of an authority than Mario Andretti, who appeared on "Wind Tunnel" that night, said as much. And Paul, how on Earth can someone who's been around NASCAR as long as Mike Joy call Clint Bowyer the "new Ironhead". That's about the dumbest comment I've ever seen or heard attributed to him, and he should know better. There is not, and will never be any such thing as a "new Ironhead". There was only one "Ironhead", and that someone would be none other than seven-time NASCAR champion Dale Earnhardt, Sr. Certainly newly crowned champion Brad Keselowski seems to carry some of Dale, Sr.'s spirit, but there will NEVER be another "Ironhead", and for Mike Joy to make such a comment is truly shocking, because he, more than anyone else among today NASCAR commentators, should know better. 1126. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, Tim George, Jr. will be driving the #2 truck full-time in 2013, so RCR will field three full-time trucks in the Truck Series next season." Tim George, Jr.? OUCH. His PEER through 12 races this year was -1.083. Double OUCH!! "And Paul, how on Earth can someone who's been around NASCAR as long as Mike Joy call Clint Bowyer the "new Ironhead". That's about the dumbest comment I've ever seen or heard attributed to him, and he should know better. There is not, and will never be any such thing as a "new Ironhead". There was only one "Ironhead", and that someone would be none other than seven-time NASCAR champion Dale Earnhardt, Sr. Certainly newly crowned champion Brad Keselowski seems to carry some of Dale, Sr.'s spirit, but there will NEVER be another "Ironhead", and for Mike Joy to make such a comment is truly shocking, because he, more than anyone else among today NASCAR commentators, should know better." Everyone's entitled to one mistake. I've probably made a few myself. 1127. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know cjs, I was surprised that someone of Mike Joy's expertise and knowledge of the sport would suggest something like that. Now to be fair, he never said that Clint Bowyer is the new Dale Earnhardt, but he did say that Clint represents what a lot of Earnhardt fans liked in Dale, and that he sees Clint being the alternative that a lot of Earnhardt fans have been looking for for the past 12 years. That being said, I'm not sure which statement is more absurd. The idea that Clint has become the "new Ironhead", or the fact that he himself said that basically Clint is the answer to a lot of Earnhardt fans' prayers over the past 12 years, and is their savior, if you will. Now I can't speak for Earnhardt fans because I was never really one of them, although I always liked Dale and have collected several memorabilia items such as some diecast cars and even a banner that I used to hang over my bed (along side my Jeff Gordon pennant flag), but I honestly see no connection between the two that would give anyone the impression that Clint is the next Dale Earnhardt. Clint can run into other drivers and try to own the race track all that he wants, but he will never earn the undeniable respect from his competitors that Earnhardt once had, nor will anybody else. When you saw Earnhardt in your rear view mirror, you were thinking about what he was going to do and thus many times psyched yourself out of the position. When drivers see Clint in their rear view mirror, they see him as just another driver on the race track, and some of the drivers may even race him really hard because they know how much he dislikes that. Earnhardt got held up by Steve Park at Richmond '00 and was proud of the way that Park wouldn't give him the position. Clint on the other hand complained about David Stremme for racing him too hard at Nashville '08, and went as far as to say that that's why Stremme no longer had a Cup ride. From an attitude standpoint alone, he is nothing compared to Dale Earnhardt. Add in his driving ability and how little he did at RCR compared to what Dale did, and he's nothing but a scab on Earnhardt's butt at best. At best, I saw Clint as the next Jeff Burton: Good race car driver that has a few great seasons mixed in with many good to mediocre seasons in his career. But as it turns out, Clint lacks Jeff Burton's greatest asset, which is his ability to stay cool, calm, and collective for incidents that happen on the race track. I don't think Burton gets enough credit for how much class that he has and shows off on a regular basis. The only time I can recall him getting emotional was when he confronted Kyle Busch after the 2010 Coca-Cola 600, and that was because he was trying to ask a driver who "never does anything wrong" why he got into him and cut his left rear tire down (which ironically was due to Clint Bowyer making it 3-wide and forcing Kyle up into Burton). Other than that, Burton has demonstrated what it means to be a champion off the race track, regardless of his lack of championships on the race track. At Martinsville '03, he and Jimmie Johnson were racing hard, with Jimmie blocking hi for several laps and the two even making contact before Burton passed him. After the race, Burton entered Jimmie's hauler and told him what he should do next time and why holding up a faster car isn't the right thing to do so early in a 500-lap race. At Martinsville '10, Burton's hopeless teammate Kevin Harvick got frustrated with Burton because he wouldn't roll over for him on the race track, and while Harvick was mad at Burton and saying that he's had enough of him and all that, Burton very calmly said after the race that Harvick should know by now after what was then 10 seasons in Cup that he has to control his emotions throughout the course of a race, and that he doesn't have to pick a fight with everybody. In other words, the only thing holding Harvick back is Harvick, which is such a true statement. Clint on the other hand is a lot like Harvick personality-wise, especially this past season. Forget about blaming other people for racing him too hard or not rolling over for him, which is Harvick's specialty, he has been so angry and vocal over the radio this season to the point where Jimmy Spencer actually replaced Kurt Busch for him as NASCAR's "Radio Sweetheart" earlier this season. I've heard him cuss out Brian Pattie over the radio many times this season, including several times in the Chase. Eventually, that wears down on a crew chief, like we've seen between Dave Rogers and Kyle Busch. Don't be surprised if Clint continues to abuse his team over the radio to the point where Pattie decides to go somewhere else. One of the reasons why he left EGR is because he got tired of taking Montoya's verbal abuse over the radio, and if Clint doesn't settle down this next season (which should surely be a down year for MWR compared to 2012), Pattie may get burnt out from him as well. If there's one thing Clint should have learned while at RCR and being Harvick's teammate for six year, it's that you can't verbally abuse your team and expect to have long-lasting results with that team. I used to think Clint was the new Jeff Burton because of how much he resembled Burton during their RCR years both on and off the track. But now that he's with a team that pretty much encourages brash and outlandish behavior from its drivers, I think it's clear how similar he and Kevin Harvick are in the most negative sense from a personality standpoint. I think he'll still post Jeff Burton-like results on the track, but whether it be his true personality or he's just morphed into the MWR-prototype driver, he has adopted elements similar to those of the other former teammate of his. 1128. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tim George, Jr.? OUCH. His PEER through 12 races this year was -1.083." I saw David Smith post that on his Twitter page. George had the lowest PEER among the 56 drivers who were ranked, with Max Gresham being a close 2nd. That's pretty significant considering he was pretty decent in ARCA, yet has shown next to nothing driving for one of the three best Truck teams, not to mention being severely outperformed by Kevin Harvick and Brendan Gaughan last year in the same equipment. 1129. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul, what does that say about ARCA? As I've said before, there have been only two successful ARCA drivers ever to make it big in Cup to my knowledge, and that would be Benny Parsons and Davey Allison. Now Ty Dillon and Parker Kilgerman are both trying to change that, but despite what people say about ARCA, the fact that there have only been two successful drivers in ARCA to make it big in NASCAR isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for ARCA. And peaking of Clint Bowyer's radio communicatins, it seems that he screamed and panicked every time something was wrong with his car. I remmber when he first won in 2007, he was acting like he was hitting the "panic button" the entire second half of the race, even though he dominated that entire event, leading about three-quarters of the laps. But I also have to disagree with you about Jimmie Johnson not being an endurance racer. As I recall, his background is exactly the same as that of Rick Mears, which was desert racing. Granted he raced in the stadium events, but he also raced in the endurance events like the Baja 1000, and there's no other event, except for the 24-Hour sports car races that tests the endurance of both the man and machine, so he did have some background in endurance racing before he came to stock car racing. And like Rick Mears, his off-road racing background is a big reason for his success, but unlike Mears, he did not get injured in the prime of his career. But other than the fact that Mears was seriously injured in the prime of his career, the career paths of both Mears and Johnson are the same. I believe that if Mears had not been injured in his prime, that he would have broken every record there was in IndyCar racing when he started, and Johnson may well do the same in NASCAR, except for the 200 wins, which nobody is ever getting a sniff of, but Jeff Gordon's modern win record (currently at 87), whatever it ends up being, is definitely within reach, even if it gets to 100 wins. 1130. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, it looks like Rex Ryan is even more stubborn than I thought (and probably as stubborn as you thought). He's going with Mark Sanchez for the game this week against the Jaguars. I don't get the logic in this. Sanchez is playing horribly with this team. In 3 of his last 4 games, Sanchez has earned a quarterback rating of 22.9 or less, including two games with a single-digit QB rating. He can't win games unless the rest of the team is great because he doesn't make the other players around him better. And at this point, they're fringe playoff contenders at best and can only get in with a wildcard berth. Plus, Greg McElroy played very well last week having no preparation for the game, and with the possibility of Sanchez not coming back after this season, why not prepare for 2013 now and see if McElroy is your quarterback of the future. I have no idea why the Jets even wanted Tim Tebow if they're not going to play him. They never fully utilized him when he was the backup, then conveniently benched Sanchez when he was deactivated last week, and now he's back to his former role of being used for package plays. I don't see the harm in having him play in front of his hometown fans against the Jaguars, a very beatable team, considering how unlikely it is for the Jets to make the playoffs at this point. If they really wanted him, they would play him at this point. But of course, they don't really want him, only the publicity he brings in. And if Rex wasn't so damn stubborn with sticking with Mark "Sanchize", he might actually have a shot at building something for 2013. But since he is what he is and has no desire to change his coaching philosophy, he'll sacrifice the success of the team by sticking with "his guy", even if that means seeing his season tank. 1131. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I consider Jimmie Johnson a sprint racer based on his performance over an entire season, not just one given race. Obviously his past desert racing experience has made him a very good endurance driver for a race, which may have helped him win three straight Coca-Cola 600 races, but he is far too mistake-prone to be considered an endurance driver in terms of performing throughout the course of an entire season. He's always very strong at the beginning and until this season had been very strong at the end, but it's often the middle of the season when he starts to make mistakes and take himself out of races. I also think that the pressure of being a 5-time champion is getting to him as he has made a lot of mistakes over the past two seasons and is more noticeably irritated over the radio than he used to be. And I think all this pressure that he put on himself to win his sixth championship this season, only to get beat by a more determined driver, partially because he beat himself, took a lot out of him and I see him having a down year in 2013. 1132. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I believe the reason T-Rex Ryan is going with Sanchez is a simple one. About 8.5 million reasons to be exact. That's about the amount of guaranteed money he's getting from the Jets next year from the contract that was signed this past off-season. If it ws me, I'd put in Tebow for this week, since they're playing in Jacksonville, and then McElroy for the reat of the season. And they have virtually no shot at a Wild Card berth. The reason is that they're 5-7 and the worst the record of the second Wild Card team can possibly be is 8-8, considering the Bengals and Steelers are at 7-5 and have play each other, and the Colts, who hold the first Wild Card, already has 8 wins, and should get to 10. The irony is that Joe Namath, the Jets' greatest player ever, is a big Sanchez fan, which is odd in a way, because he actually has much more in common with Greg McElroy than he does with Sanchez. For openers, they both went to Alabama. And McElroy is said to have the same kind of confidence that Namath had when he played. 1133. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The equipment/era argument for Gordon over Johnson doesn't hold any water because Jeff has been in identical equipment over the exact same period of time. Johnson > Gordon. 1134. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that doesn't make logical sense. The thing that makes Johnson less than Gordon: Johnson has taken every chance he can to bully Jeff on the track while Jeff has never retaliated once. 1135. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The equipment/era argument for Gordon over Johnson doesn't hold any water because Jeff has been in identical equipment over the exact same period of time." That's fine, because there are other arguments. For example, Jeff has four straight Southern 500 wins--an accomplishment you yourself has said is underrated--and Jimmie Johnson doesn't even have four Darlington wins, period. 1136. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going back to post #860: "That being said, I do agree that Jarrett and Labonte are near the bottom of the totem pole in terms of the quality of Cup champion drivers, but have you seen the talent pool of drivers that have won the Cup championship? There are no scrubs (or should I say "Shrubs") that have won a Cup championship, and so saying that Jarrett and Labonte are two of the worst Cup champions in history isn't an insult because it doesn't diminish those two as drivers. Plus, someone has to be at the bottom if you were to list each champion driver." This is true. There have only been 29 champions in the NASCAR Cup Series. 1137. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "cjs, I consider Jimmie Johnson a sprint racer based on his performance over an entire season, not just one given race. Obviously his past desert racing experience has made him a very good endurance driver for a race, which may have helped him win three straight Coca-Cola 600 races, but he is far too mistake-prone to be considered an endurance driver in terms of performing throughout the course of an entire season. He's always very strong at the beginning and until this season had been very strong at the end, but it's often the middle of the season when he starts to make mistakes and take himself out of races. I also think that the pressure of being a 5-time champion is getting to him as he has made a lot of mistakes over the past two seasons and is more noticeably irritated over the radio than he used to be. And I think all this pressure that he put on himself to win his sixth championship this season, only to get beat by a more determined driver, partially because he beat himself, took a lot out of him and I see him having a down year in 2013." Yep, it's finally time for Johnson to face the Losers Curse that he inflicted on so many drivers over his 5 straight championships. Gordon, Edwards, Martin and Hamlin... all came out on the losing end against Johnson and all ended up suffering the Losers Curse the next year. Kenseth was probably the only one who avoided it for the most part. Even before that, Biffle and Edwards went from T-2nd against Stewart in 2005 to both missing the Chase in 2006. And then after, with Carl going from T-1st and losing on a tiebreaker to by far the worst season of his career. The curse goes to Johnson since he actually lost the championship, even though he ended up 3rd. Bowyer rose up to 2nd in the last race, and given it was a career year for both driver AND team across the board MWR should be able to carry the momentum into next year and have another good season. 1138. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The equipment/era argument for Gordon over Johnson doesn't hold any water because Jeff has been in identical equipment over the exact same period of time." And while we're at it, let's diminish Rusty Wallace as well considering how he was outperformed by Ryan Newman in identical equipment. 1139. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "given it was a career year for both driver AND team across the board MWR should be able to carry the momentum into next year and have another good season." I disagree Talon64. I think that with the creation of the new car, which should hurt the performance of the #55 team the most, having a weak teammate in Martin Truex, Jr., and its best driver seemingly being put in his place after the Phoenix race, I'm predicting a down year overall for MWR. Now I still believe that Clint will make the Chase, but with the other contributing factors like having teammates that are almost guaranteed to slip in performance in 2013, as well as his sudden change from being a loud mouth to someone who now seems to hesitate before giving interviews lately, I think MWR will lose some of, if not a lot of, its momentum next season. I predict Clint will finish in the bottom half of the Chase next season while still winning 1-2 races, Truex to go winless again and miss the Chase, and the #55 to struggle with the three driver rotation with the new car and be a non-factor. 1140. Dave #38 Fan posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) apparently i'm in the minority here because i'm on bowyer's side and think that gordon got off easy. i never had anything against gordon but i can't stand him anymore. typical hendrick driver thinking that everybody should get out of his way. can't wait to see bowyer put him back in his place sometime next year, and hopefully next year is gordon's last season behind the wheel. 1141. 18fan posted: 12.05.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, your argument for Jimmie over Jeff can be used in the same way to prove something that you definitely believe is false. Carl Edwards is ahead of Matt Kenseth in every category since Carl debuted, except championships where they are even with 0. I like Matt and I dislike Carl, but using your argument about Jeff vs. Jimmie I believe that argument also makes it out to look like Carl is better than Matt, something you have strongly argued against multiple times. 1142. murb posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I mentioned in my predictions, I see MWR having a bit of a step back next year. Not a bad year, but certainly not as good as they were this year. Paul, I basically echo exactly what you said on 1139. I think Clint will again make the Chase (though he won't be as serious of a contender as he was in 2012), and I think Truex will miss it (although I wouldn't be surprised to see him maybe sneak out one win). As for the 55 team, I think Mark will be about the same as this year (but he WILL win at least one race), Michael will do his usual mediocrity, and Vickers won't be as good because he will be fully focused on the NNS championship. 1143. Mr X posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would anyone else here agree with me if I said that I think Brian Pattie is a pretty underrated crew chief. 1144. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I disagree Talon64. I think that with the creation of the new car, which should hurt the performance of the #55 team the most, having a weak teammate in Martin Truex, Jr., and its best driver seemingly being put in his place after the Phoenix race, I'm predicting a down year overall for MWR. Now I still believe that Clint will make the Chase, but with the other contributing factors like having teammates that are almost guaranteed to slip in performance in 2013, as well as his sudden change from being a loud mouth to someone who now seems to hesitate before giving interviews lately, I think MWR will lose some of, if not a lot of, its momentum next season. I predict Clint will finish in the bottom half of the Chase next season while still winning 1-2 races, Truex to go winless again and miss the Chase, and the #55 to struggle with the three driver rotation with the new car and be a non-factor." MWR's one of the few teams that'll have zero changes for 2013. If it isn't broke, don't fix it (something Roush has yet to learn), and I think keeping everything together for a 2nd year will mean more improvement. If the #55 falters, it's because Mark Martin's age will finally catch up with him and his results will drop off. But if they can avoid the mechanical failures that cost them a shot at the Chase this year, then maybe they could contend for a Chase spot in 2013. Truex Jr. might miss the Chase just because of an improved #99 team and a #18 team that won't shoot themselves in the foot. The competition in Cup is getting top-heavy, so Truex could miss the Chase but still have a year on par with what he did in 2012. It'd especially be on par if he could finally win a race. And I don't see Bowyer finishing outside of the top 5 in points next year, since he's proven himself to be one of the best at stepping up when it matters. 1145. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A large part of me doesn't want to see Mark win again because of who he drives for and whose record he would break as the oldest Cup winner should he win another race. He wins driving for Michael Waltrip, we will never hear the end of it. Because the media is so in love with the Waltrip brothers, if Mark were to win another race, they won't say "Mark Martin becomes the oldest winner in Sprint Cup Series history," they'll say "Mark Martin, driving the #55 Aaron's Dream Machine for Michael Waltrip Racing, becomes the oldest winner in Sprint Cup Series history." If Mark were to win another race, I just hope it isn't for a media darling like Michael Waltrip that would place his name alongside Mark's in the record book. I'd rather see Mark win a Nationwide race for JGR (which he could do if he maintains his tradition of racing at Las Vegas) than see him win a Cup race for MWR. And also, I like the fact that Harry Gant, who I agree with DSFF as being the very definition of a real man's man (take some notes, Clint), still has his name in the record book for a feat that hasn't been repeated, such as the "four straight wins" modern era record that he holds. Seeing Mark get it would just feel wrong to me not only because of who he drives for, but how he got the ride and his Brett Favre similarities he's displayed over the past seven seasons. While I would feel happy for Mark if he does win another Cup race, it just wouldn't mean as much to me because of how undignified the last three seasons of his career have been with him taking seats away from other drivers that have longer futures in this sport than he does. 1146. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If the #55 falters, it's because Mark Martin's age will finally catch up with him and his results will drop off." We are at the point that I don't think Mark Martin's age will EVER catch up to him. While I was typing that, a question popped into my head: Do you think that Mark Martin's historical ranking has improved or diminished since he was initially supposed to retire (at the end of 2005)? 1147. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "taking seats away from other drivers that have longer futures in this sport than he does." Keselowski ended up at Penske and got Roger his first Cup championship. So it worked out even better than if he'd stayed with HMS and won a championship there, since merely continuing the HMS dominancy wouldn't have meant nearly as much as pulling it off by becoming the leader at an underdog team did. Reutimann didn't exactly have a long future in NASCAR, he's 42 years old and might've already been shown signs of degradation in 2011. Something that 2012 might have also proven since he didn't run any better at TBR than Blaney did. If anything, it salvaged Vickers' career since he got to run some races in the #55 and ran pretty spectacularly. Now he's a favorite for next year's Nationwide championship, still running races for MWR and could land himself a full time Cup ride with either MWR or JGR if he keeps on doing what he's been doing. So his NASCAR future might very well have been saved thanks to Mark Martin. And RCR blocking Elliott Sadler from driving the #55. "his Brett Favre similarities he's displayed over the past seven seasons." As long as Mark's still running well, then he should continue to race. 2010 and 2011 with HMS were pretty bad, but this past season proved that he's still got it and I wouldn't mind one bit if Mark won a race and broke the record for oldest winner. It doesn't matter to me who he does it for. But like I said, 2013 could be where Mark finally starts to show his age. In which case, I hope he'd retire at the end of the season because then all of your points would be true. 1148. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A large part of me doesn't want to see Mark win again because of who he drives for and whose record he would break as the oldest Cup winner should he win another race. He wins driving for Michael Waltrip, we will never hear the end of it. Because the media is so in love with the Waltrip brothers, if Mark were to win another race, they won't say "Mark Martin becomes the oldest winner in Sprint Cup Series history," they'll say "Mark Martin, driving the #55 Aaron's Dream Machine for Michael Waltrip Racing, becomes the oldest winner in Sprint Cup Series history." If Mark were to win another race, I just hope it isn't for a media darling like Michael Waltrip that would place his name alongside Mark's in the record book. I'd rather see Mark win a Nationwide race for JGR (which he could do if he maintains his tradition of racing at Las Vegas) than see him win a Cup race for MWR." Personally, I'm thinking he may race until he wins the Daytona 500, which he has never won in 28 starts (and people think Tony Stewart is frustrated). Clearly, since he could not quite close the deal on the championship, he wants to win this race to have in his legacy, because Mark Martin is, in my opinion, the best driver never to win either the Daytona 500 or the championship. 1149. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart has declined Roger Penske's offer to run in the Indianapolis 500. "Do you think that Mark Martin's historical ranking has improved or diminished since he was initially supposed to retire (at the end of 2005)?" I think so to some extent because he has won only five races in the past seven seasons (all of which came in '09), and has reminded a lot of fans of Brett Favre due to his constant retirement talks and switching between full- and part-time rides, which as a result de-railed the careers of Jamie McMurray (although that wasn't really his fault), Brad, and David Reutimann by taking their rides away. I know that wasn't Mark's intention because he just loves to race and has no desire to hurt anyone's career like his recent track record may indicate, but it doesn't look good for him to not bow out gracefully. Also, you have to keep in mind that Mark is still racing, so when we think of his career, right now we're going to look at what he has done lately as opposed to his whole career. Once he retires, we'll probably start to forget about his recent acts of Brett Favre-like behavior. But for now, because of his lack of results over the past seven seasons and his hesitance to "bow out gracefully" and retire with honor, I think a lot of us will focus mostly on his recent exploits, which I think diminishes his career to some degree. It's not fair, but I'm afraid that's just the way that it is. 1150. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was post #237 by Paul, in response to post #236, in which I posted the top 10 in Nationwide Series PEER. "I'm guessing all seven of those Cup drivers (obviously McDowell) achieved higher PEER ratings in Nationwide than they did Cup. I would love to see what Joey's Cup PEER rating was. I'd be shocked if it was one-third of his Nationwide rating [5.136]." It was 1.125. 1151. Eric posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is hard to say if Marks historical ranking has improved or diminished since he was initially supposed to retire. My reasoning goes to the fact while only won 5 times after 2005, he Mark is currently 17th in the all times list. The fact is Mark would have been ranked 20th instead of 17th if he retired after 2005. Mark is still competitive. Mark isn't at his peak as driver anymore since that really was in the 1990's, but Mark is still competitive. That is different than Darrell Waltrip after 1995, Richard Petty after 1987, and Bobby Labonte in 2004 or 2006. I only 2006 for Bobby Labonte because he was competitive in the 43 at times in 2006. Bobby actually had races in 2006 that he could have had a top 10 or a top 5 like the spring Atlanta race before he blow an engine. 1152. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now [Brian Vickers]'s a favorite for next year's Nationwide championship, still running races for MWR and could land himself a full time Cup ride with either MWR or JGR if he keeps on doing what he's been doing." That brings up a good point. Is anyone else tired of these recycled Cup drivers having mediocre Cup careers, moving down to Nationwide with a great team, and then being "next in line" for a marquee Cup ride? Now Vickers I can understand because he was doing pretty well with Red Bull before sitting out for most of 2010 with blood clots, but Elliott Sadler doesn't deserve a Cup ride from my account. Sadler had 5 top five finishes in his last 6 full-time Cup seasons, and wrecked Jimmie Johnson on his 2nd lap back after taking a Nationwide sabbatical last year in the Daytona 500. Plus, he couldn't beat Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., arguably the most wreck-prone full-time driver in NASCAR (Townley might disagree), for the Nationwide championship after Stenhouse cost himself about 50 points from his self-inflicted poor finishes at Dover, Kentucky, and Montreal. If he couldn't do anything in Cup, other than '04 and to a lesser extent '05, why would we expect any differently from him when he's 10 years older than he was when he last won a race? Too many drivers just get reused and recycled back into Cup after having little to no success the first time around. Whether it be Vickers and Sadler, or the fleet of start-and-park drivers, many of whom have had little to no success in NASCAR, it's just the same thing every single year. Garbage in, garbage out. That's another reason why I'm going to be so glad when the fleet of talented younger drivers from the Truck and Nationwide Series like Buescher, Kligerman, Ty Dillon, and Ryan Blaney finally reach Cup because then we will at least get some young blood up in the top series that actually has a future in Cup. Vickers and Sadler are short-term plans that don't have hardly any upside, and I hope that some top level rides open up in the upcoming years that some of the sport's talented "young guns" with major upside can take over. I have no problem with Vickers and Sadler having top rides in a lower series, but the idea that they are using those rides to obtain a full-time Cup ride when they have proven not worthy of them in their most recent Cup years doesn't sit well with me. 1153. Eric posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I don't think you really can say Mark had lack of results in 2006. I am saying that because Mark 7 top 5's and 15 top 10's in 2006. Mark as a part time driver in 2007 and 2008 had a 9 top 5's and 22 top 10's in 48 starts. Mark in 2007 almost won at Daytona and Mark in 2008 would have won at Phoenix if Phoenix wasn't a fuel millage race. Those two sounds sound like a true lake of results. Mark in 2010 and 2011 was lack of results, but it caused two facts. Hendrick wanted the 88 team to improved in 2010 and it hurt the 5 team. Mark was a lame duck in 2011 and Mark got the worse out of the crew chief swap. Mark had results in 2012 with 4 top 5's and 10 top 10's. Mark had the car to beat at Michigan if he didn't have any problems. 1154. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF, that doesn't make logical sense. The thing that makes Johnson less than Gordon: Johnson has taken every chance he can to bully Jeff on the track while Jeff has never retaliated once." If that is truly the case, then what does that make Gordon? A p***y! Remember, Gordon co-owns the 48. If he is gonna just sit back and let the inmates run his asylum, then he deserves to be historically penalized. "That's fine, because there are other arguments. For example, Jeff has four straight Southern 500 wins--an accomplishment you yourself has said is underrated--and Jimmie Johnson doesn't even have four Darlington wins, period." Those 4 came without Johnson in the field. Only 2 of Gordon's Darlington wins came with Jimmie in the field. All 3 of Jimmie's had Jeff in the starting lineup. "And while we're at it, let's diminish Rusty Wallace as well considering how he was outperformed by Ryan Newman in identical equipment." Rusty has nobody to blame but himself for those years. First off he was steadfastly trying to do things the way they were done when he had the lion's share of his success (the same thing that sunk Petty Enterprises). Had he gone ahead and changed with the times and listened to the engineers he could have been ok. But all wasn't right with the 12 team either because they were ONLY listening to the engineers. If Rusty weren't so hard headed he could have reached a compromise between driver input and engineering, basically the exact way Penske is working now, they could have both had success. But the biggest thing is that Rusty was well past his prime and had hung around too long. He was being outrun by drivers 20 years younger than him, including Newman. Let's not forget, Jeff is only right at 4 years older than Jimmie. "Carl Edwards is ahead of Matt Kenseth in every category since Carl debuted, except championships where they are even with 0." Does Matt co-own Carl's team? Was the 99 team formed to be a sister team to the 17? Besides, although Carl has better overall numbers, he has been wildly inconsistent while Matt has been steady as a rock (except '09). 1155. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like I gave Joey Logano a little too much credit as his Cup PEER rating was just a shade over one-fifth of his Nationwide PEER rating. I'm guessing that his Cup PEER will improve in 2013 only because of its lack of results in 2012, while his Nationwide PEER will slip because Penske's #22 isn't nearly as strong as JGR's #18. I think this year we will see how good Joey truly is because his Nationwide equipment next year won't be as good as it was in 2012, and putting him on the same scale as Brad and Blaney will give us a better indication as to how good he really is in Nationwide. 1156. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, maybe the term "lack of results" wasn't the best term to use, because as you said, Mark has performed very well at times since 2005. But I think that overall he has slipped a lot since that time, with '09 being the obvious outlier due to his 5 wins, mostly due to him taking advantage of the great team and equipment he had to work with, and I think that looking at it right now, his career rankings have diminished a little bit. If you consider his career from the big picture, then maybe his historical rankings haven't changed. But I think that just looking at his performances before '06 and then '06-present, along with his unintentional exploits over the past few years that may have rubbed some fans the wrong way, I think he has hurt himself a little bit because often times it's what a driver does last that most people remember them for. In other words, the "what have you done for me lately?" tag is on Mark at this point, and that may hurt him historically. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it. 1157. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, I don't know how to make this any clearer. Every start Jimmie has made, Jeff has been in the field (even at Homestead this year cause NASCAR has no balls). He has been driving the same HMS cars as Jimmie. And, as always, if Jimmie was getting an advantage over Jeff, then the person who is the most to blame is Jeff Gordon. Every win by Jimmie, every championship by Jimmie, everything Jimmie has done has been done with Jeff in the field in the same equipment. And under the same rules. All these "modern advantages" that Jimmie has taken advantage of have been right there for the taking for Jeff too. If he were better than Jimmie, he would have done a better job. Yet in nine less seasons Jimmie has already surpassed Jeff's championship total and is only 27 wins behind Jeff overall. Why is this significant? By the time 2002 rolled around, Jeff had been in Winston Cup for 9 seasons racking up 4 championships, 59 wins, 2 Daytona 500s, 4 Southern 500s, 3 World 600s, 3 Brickyard 400s, and 3 All Star races. And he was only 30 years old. Hardly a Rusty/Newman situation. Jimmie steps into Jeff's shop driving sister cars to Jeff's, in some cases even former #24 cars, and Jeff's career numbers slowed down considerably at the age where he should have been at his best. He has still posted big numbers compared to others, but the sudden halt in pure domination cannot be ignored. Especially when his own shopmate (until '11 but they were still in the same equipment) was the one suddenly doing the dominating. From 2002 to present, Jeff has no championships, 28 wins, 1 Daytona 500, 2 Southern 500s, 0 World 600s, 1 Brickyard 400, and 0 All Star wins. Jimmie has 5 championships (in a row! if we are going to make such a big deal, rightfully so, about Jeff winning 4 consecutive Southern 500s and 6 consecutive road course races in the pre-Jimmie era, then his 5 championships, already more than Jeff, REALLY need to be marveled at), 1 Daytona 500, 2 Southern 500s, 3 World 600s (in a row!), 4 Brickyard 400s, and 3 All Star races. Seriously guys, I fail to see how this is even an argument. Same equipment, same time, same rules, only 4 years difference, yet Jimmie has killed Jeff statistically over that span. And the arrival of Jimmie also saw the sudden halt of Gordon's out of this world dominance, his production was cut to 1/3 (check out Jeff's percentages pre and post JJ). You can throw all the half baked theories at it you want, the cold hard facts are Johnson > Gordon. 1158. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sadler had 5 top five finishes in his last 6 full-time Cup seasons, and wrecked Jimmie Johnson on his 2nd lap back after taking a Nationwide sabbatical last year in the Daytona 500. Plus, he couldn't beat Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., arguably the most wreck-prone full-time driver in NASCAR (Townley might disagree), for the Nationwide championship after Stenhouse cost himself about 50 points from his self-inflicted poor finishes at Dover, Kentucky, and Montreal. If he couldn't do anything in Cup, other than '04 and to a lesser extent '05, why would we expect any differently from him when he's 10 years older than he was when he last won a race?" Stenhouse had a 0.18 crash frequency in 2012, below the series average of 0.23 and pretty close to Sadler (0.15) and Dillon (0.12) from Really Conservative Racing. That some of Stenhouse's wrecks happened at bad times which cost him points taints the perception, but Stenhouse also showed a lot of guts in his ability to not give back and come-back in races. His win at Kansas was on a Jimmie Johnson-esque level of coming back to win a race he had no right to win. As for Sadler, I agree. I don't see him being able to match Vickers at JGR, since Sadler only showed anything with RCR when he got a quality crew chief like Luke Lambert. and about Logano's PEER, anything 1.000 or above (servicable) at the Cup level should be considered to be decent, and that Logano's worthy of not only still being in Cup but staying in decent equipment. After all, he's still only 22 years old. That's young for a 1st-year Cup driver and he's going to be entering his 5th full season in 2013 so nobody should give up on his development just yet. The move to Penske's the reset on his career that he needs, since he's going to be (or needs to be) an important part of the Penske duo rather than the training wheel on the JGR bicycle like he'd been for a while. 1159. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you have ignored the cold hard facts. Both Jeff (remember Richmond when Jimmie wrecked Jeff on purpose) and one of his crew members have said that Chad and Jimmie deliberately sabotage them. You can't say that that doesn't play heavily toward making Jimmie seem better, because it does. 1160. murb posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good lord, this Jeff vs Jimmie debate is still going on? "Keselowski ended up at Penske and got Roger his first Cup championship. So it worked out even better than if he'd stayed with HMS and won a championship there, since merely continuing the HMS dominancy wouldn't have meant nearly as much as pulling it off by becoming the leader at an underdog team did." I wholeheartedly agree with this. The only one who had their career "derailed" was Reutimann, but like Talon said, he's been showing signs of fadeout ever since 2011. The sleazy way MWR canned him was BS, but I understand why they did it. They had a chance to sign one of the greatest drivers of all time, and they had to get it done right at that moment, so Reutimann unfortunately was the odd man out. I think Mark should race for as long as he wants to, just because he has earned the right to. Yes, he's been wishy washy on his retirement in the past, and I don't know what he'll do after MWR, but you can tell he still has the same passion for the sport that he used to back in the day. I'm always happy to see him win, because after all the stuff he's been through over his career (having to leave Nascar early on and then come back, heartbreakingly getting beat for the title in 1990, losing his dad and sister in the plane crash in 1998, etc), he deserves it. Paul, you make a good point about how Michael will try and force himself into the limelight once (or if) Mark wins for him. But I think if you asked any Mark Martin fan, they would be willing to take that consequence just to see Mark win another Cup race. 1161. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Those 4 came without Johnson in the field. Only 2 of Gordon's Darlington wins came with Jimmie in the field. All 3 of Jimmie's had Jeff in the starting lineup." No, but the starting fields for his other five wins included: - Dale Earnhardt (all five, two before his Talladega crash) - Rusty Wallace (all five) - Ricky Rudd (all five) - Bobby Labonte (all five) - Terry Labonte (all five) - Dale Jarrett (all five) - Bill Elliott (all five) - Mark Martin (all five) - Darrell Waltrip, even though he was as faded as an old photo (all five) 1162. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and about Logano's PEER, anything 1.000 or above (servicable) at the Cup level should be considered to be decent, and that Logano's worthy of not only still being in Cup but staying in decent equipment. After all, he's still only 22 years old. That's young for a 1st-year Cup driver and he's going to be entering his 5th full season in 2013 so nobody should give up on his development just yet. The move to Penske's the reset on his career that he needs, since he's going to be (or needs to be) an important part of the Penske duo rather than the training wheel on the JGR bicycle like he'd been for a while." But he's still a jerk. I'm willing to agree to disagree on this Gordon-Johnson debate, because it is obvious that nether side will budge so much as a millimeter. 1163. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Seriously guys, I fail to see how this is even an argument. Same equipment, same time, same rules, only 4 years difference, yet Jimmie has killed Jeff statistically over that span. And the arrival of Jimmie also saw the sudden halt of Gordon's out of this world dominance, his production was cut to 1/3 (check out Jeff's percentages pre and post JJ). You can throw all the half baked theories at it you want, the cold hard facts are Johnson > Gordon." Johnson will get his due one day. But it'll always be hard for me to put Johnson > Gordon, since that 1995-1999 stretch with 47 wins for Gordon was out of this world. If Gordon's career had started and ended right there, he'd still be T-14th all time in wins! Not only is that a modern era record, but the only driver with more wins in a 5-year stretch was Richard Petty, who won 92 races from 1967-71 and had other stretches that totaled more than 47. And Gordon's competition back then was still pretty stout IMO. At least on the same level as today. btw Johnson's best 5-year stretch was 35 wins during his 5 straight championships, which ranks 9th all time: Richard Petty - 92 Jeff Gordon - 47 David Pearson - 46 Ned Jarrett - 43 Darrell Waltrip - 42 Herb Thomas - 42 Cale Yarborough - 41 Bobby Isaac - 36 (out of his 37 career wins) Although winning 5 straight championships, combined with the abundance of wins, should automatically makes that the best 5 consecutive seasons in NASCAR history. So.... okay I could put Johnson ahead of Gordon. One day. 1164. cjs3872 posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, every driver that was considered a veteran in the Cup series at the time of Dale Earnhardt's fatal crash has had their success wane, and that is certainly true of Gordon. That's because of the emotional trauma that evryone went through as a result of that. The generation of drivers that were getting their careers started at that time have never had to go through anything like that, so we don't know how they would react. I wonder if any part of Gordon's success from 1995-'01 had to do with the bad crashes that took place in 1994 as a result of the tire war that year for exactly the same reason. Because he had not seen the dark side of Cup racing, while the veterans at the time had. Besides, since the start of the 2002 season, Gordon is still the third-winningest driver on the circuit with 29 wins, despite all he's been through, part of which has been self-inficted, some of which has been the result of his own bad crashes from 2006-'10, and some of which has been the result of the nefarious actions of Chad Knaus, as it relates to the Chase. But as for bringing up the fact that Gordon is listed as co-owner of the #48 team, I'd say he's that in name only. Remember that for some of the incentive programs, that a car owner can only be listed as the owner for two cars. Hendrick got around that by listing Gordon as the owner of the #48 car, and Papa Joe and later his son Ricky as owner of one of his other cars. Jack Roush did the same thing by listing Mark Martin as the owner of the #17 car for a number of years. And other teams list phony car owners for some of their third and fourth cars, as well, so I believe that Gordon's been a co-owner of the #48 team in name only, as he has nothing to do with how that team is run, and never has. And besides, it would be ignorant for anyone to say that Gordon's percentages were going to stay that high for much longer, anyway. But also, and I think a lot of people forget this, that Gordon's prime years in racing happened much earlier in his life than those of anyone that preceeded him, because he started so young. For instance, when Gordon won his fourth championship in 2001, he had been racing for 25 years, and even though he was 30 years of age, he was actually much closer to 40 in terms of racing years, because he had raced for 25 years at that time. Judging by that, even though he's 41 now, he's actually closer to 50 in terms of years in racing, as he's raced for more than 35 years. 1165. Talon64 posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson's win % in his first 11 seasons in Cup is .1515 (2002-2012), versus .1758 for Gordon (1993-2003). Whether you fall on the Jimmie or Jeff side, at least there's no doubt these are two of the greatest NASCAR drivers of all time. 1166. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's even break down the individual categories for determining driver greatness: Championships: Advantage Jimmie. 5 in 11 years as opposed to 4 in 20 years for Jeff. And I cannot state this clearly enough: IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT JIMMIE WON ALL OF HIS UNDER THE CHA$E FORMAT. Everybody knows how the champion is determined. The fact the fans hate it doesn't matter when ranking them historically. Jeff has had the same chances Jimmie has had. In the same equipment at a similar age. Closing ability: Advantage Jimmie by a mile. And Jimmie isn't exactly Mr Clutch all the time, only some of the time, much like the original Mr Clutch, Jerry West. Jimmie has been in legitimate title contention 8 times. He lost in '04, '05, and '12 because he didn't step it up enough and had too many unforced errors. But he closed out strong in '06, '07, and '09. He has a solid closing in '08, but was kinda saved by the bell with the way Carl was running in the final 4 races. And '10 wasn't spectacular, not a strong close out, not a bad close out, but he got a lot of help from Denny. Jeff has been in legitimate title contention 7 times. He closed out strong once in '98. He didn't step up like he needed to in '96, '04, and '07 and lost as a result. He blew enormous late leads in '95 and '97 only to be saved by the bell, and in '01 he got the Dale Earnhardt In Ninety One Memorial Championship Lead Extension. Compare his numbers from his final win that season in Kansas which gave him a 222 point lead through the end of the year where he extended it to 344 points to Earnhardt's numbers in '91 from the Fall Dover race which he left with a 36 point lead through the end when he extended his lead to 195 points. Neither makes a ton of sense. Sometimes you falter, and your competition falters even worse. Head to head: Advantage Johnson by a mile. 5 championships to none, 60 wins to 58, 10 wins to 4 in "The Big 4" major races, and in their one head to head title fight, '07, Jeff had a lead midway through the cha$e, then Jimmie cut on the afterburners and had Jeff conceding one week early despite still being in mathematical contention. Versatility: Jeff by a mile. There is no form of Cup racing Gordon hasn't mastered. Jimmie, on the other hand, is pretty much an 8th place driver on the road courses (not bad, but not legendary like Jeff). And plate racing is his absolute kryptonite. Winning: Advantage Jimmie. His winning % is 15.0, all against Gordon. Jeff's is 12.6% with his first 9 years having the advantage of not having to race Jimmie (only in his first 3 and 1/2 years did he have to race against a healthy Dale). Big race winning: Tied. Yep, they are tied. Let's look at the %s. Daytona 500: Jeff 15%, Jimmie 9.1%. Southern 500: Jeff 30%, Jimmie 18.2%. World 600: Jeff 15%, Jimmie 27.3%. Brickyard 400: Jeff 21.1%, Jimmie 36.4%. And that isn't even counting Jeff's aforementioned relative shortcomings ever since Jimmie's arrival. So even if any of this meant something, like you could put a weighted percentage on each category and calculate it, Jimmie is still on top. This is no debate. 1167. Paul posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The sleazy way MWR canned [Reutimann] was BS, but I understand why they did it. I think Mark should race for as long as he wants to, just because he has earned the right to." I agree with both of those points, murb. I'm not so much mad at Mark as I am about MWR and the way that they let Reuti go with only a few weeks notice before the end of the season, so he had no chance at having even a mediocre 2012 season. I can't blame Mark for taking the offer because as a driver, you go to the team that gives you the best chance to win, and I can't blame MWR too much because this was their chance at getting a great driver that wasn't washed up (I might get criticized for this, but I happen to think that Dale Jarrett was a great driver, even if great equipment was a large factor in his late '90s/early '00s results). I just hate the way that it happened because they indirectly sabotaged Reuti's 2012 season and possibly the rest of his career by giving him his notice so late into the season. "I'm willing to agree to disagree on this Gordon-Johnson debate, because it is obvious that nether side will budge so much as a millimeter." The funny thing about this is that it all started when cjs and I were discussing Clint Bowyer and DSFF chimed in and just randomly threw a "Johnson > Gordon" remark into his post. Sorry to pick on you, DSFF, but I think you're the one that always instigates these debates. If you don't want to hear those of us who happen to disagree with you on this issue and our "half-baked theories", then by all means don't bring it up, because from what I remember, you are always the instigator in this debate. 1168. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.05.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " Both Jeff (remember Richmond when Jimmie wrecked Jeff on purpose) and one of his crew members have said that Chad and Jimmie deliberately sabotage them." Again, Jeff co-owns the 48 team and is the senior driver at HMS. This means, if nothing else, he could make a big time power play (like threatening to leave HMS and sue him for breach of contract unless things were changed). And as a co-owner, he had many other means of recourse. If he was sabatoged, then it is Jeff's fault more than anyone else's. "DSFF, every driver that was considered a veteran in the Cup series at the time of Dale Earnhardt's fatal crash has had their success wane" All the other veterans were old and leaving their prime. They were also in similar places in life that Dale was at the time of his passing. "But as for bringing up the fact that Gordon is listed as co-owner of the #48 team, I'd say he's that in name only." He still had all the political clout at HMS before '08 or '09 when Jimmie entered the history books folks (imagine that last bit in Marty Reid's voice, I don't want you guys to miss NASCAR and BSPN's coverage too much over this off season). "For instance, when Gordon won his fourth championship in 2001, he had been racing for 25 years, and even though he was 30 years of age, he was actually much closer to 40 in terms of racing years, because he had raced for 25 years at that time." I just don't buy that. Racing is all about reflexes and anticipation. Those aren't like muscles and joints that wear down over time. It is all about age, not miles. 1169. David posted: 12.05.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Must..remain...calm. Season-long consistency: Jeff Gordon by a kilometer. Let's get 2004 out of the way first. If Johnson hadn't suffered three blown engines during the late summer, and the APPR in the other 33 races had been carried through those three races, Johnson would have had 5290 points. Now, during that same span of summer months, Gordon had two blown engines (June Michigan and Fontana). Using the same formula, he would have had 5221 points, so Johnson would have still outscored Gordon by 69 points. Gordon has scored the most points in a season 5 times, not including the aforementioned 2004. Johnson has scored the most points in a season 4 times (also including 2008, where he had a blown engine at Charlotte). So, even adjusted for Chase "experimenting", Jeff wins this category. Score one for the "half-baked theories". Now let us discuss something else. 1170. 18fan posted: 12.05.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Outside of Greg Biffle, I think Jimmie is the most on-track mistake prone big name driver in the field. He has nobody but himself to blame for losing this year's title, which he should have easily won. I know we have a lot of discussions about "choking" on this board and I believe Jimmie choked this year. He should have won Chicago but got psyched out by Brad drifting up in front of him (probably not a choke). He finished 2nd at New Hampshire to what might have been the most dominant car I've ever seen, finished 4th at Dover in a fuel derby that denied us a great duel (He and Kyle were even on the last run before Jimmie started saving fuel). Talladega was a crap shoot. 3rd at Charlotte was about where he should've finished. Then he had the dominant car by far at Kansas and blew it. He could've easily won that race even with getting caught a lap down. Definite choke. He won Martinsville and Texas, but he was extremely lucky that Kyle didn't move him at Martinsville. Phoenix was a major choke as well. Instead of taking his losses and finishing 6th-10th, he pushed way too hard and melted a bead and blew the right front tire (which had happened multiple times to other drivers in that race). Homestead wasn't a choke and he was going to win, but he potentially could've still won the title even with the rear gear failure if he hadn't cost himself 37 points at Kansas and Phoenix alone. (That point total gives Jimmie a 7th place finish at Phoenix, which is where I believe he was running when he crashed). 1171. 18fan posted: 12.05.2012 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lastly, can we just agree that Jeff and Jimmie are two of the all-time greats in the sport and are legendary drivers. It's like debating Petty vs. Pearson. Two all-time greats who each have very good arguments for why they are better than the other. 1172. Eric posted: 12.05.2012 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I don't think you can say Jeff Gordon has Season-long consistency over Jimmie Johnson for sure. You forgot a major thing about the 48 team. The 48 team during Mid summer since the chase era started is known to experiment. There is not a good way judge race teams by season long consistency anymore because of the chase. 1173. murb posted: 12.05.2012 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Now let us discuss something else." I got one. According to Jayski, Brendan Gaughan will run full time for the Truck Series championship next year, in the newly christened 62 truck for RCR. He'll also be reunited with former crew chief Shane Wilson. Yeah, I know. No one cares. I'm just tired of reading about Gordon and Johnson, lol 1174. David posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You forgot a major thing about the 48 team. The 48 team during Mid summer since the chase era started is known to experiment. There is not a good way judge race teams by season long consistency anymore because of the chase." Not to be rude, but did you bother to read the second and third paragraphs of my post? It showed how I hypothetically adjusted the season point total to make up for the experimental failures (a.k.a. blown engines or other mechanical breakdowns). I actually gave Johnson the benefit of the doubt in two seasons, 2004 and 2008. And Gordon still won out, because he scored the most points in five seasons: 1995, 1997, 1998, 2001, and 2007 (by a long shot). 1175. Eric posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Your theory of Dale Eanhardt's death on veteran drivers only works for certain drivers that raced against Dale. Yes, It affected Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, and Bobby Labonte for sure and possibility Mark Martin performance wise. Here the driver's that you can't say for if Dale's death caused them to decline: Bill Elliott- There is no way to tell if Bill was affected performance wise on the race track for 2 reasons. Bill being a driver owner from 1995 to 2000 can't give anyone an indication how well he could be for sure. The 2nd reason Bill Elliott was way past your magical number of 550 starts when Dale died. Yes Bill had top 10 points finishes in 2002 and 2003. The thing was this was aging Bill Elliott with over 600 cup starts before the 2001 cup season. Ricky Rudd - While there was drop in performance in Ricky after Dale's death, there is a big issue with him. Ricky already had 695 starts entering the 2001 season. Ricky had Career highs in top 5's and top 10's that year despite the amount of starts and Rudd's career highs in top 5's and top 10's can make anyone question your 550 cup start theory before a driver declines. Rudd at the end of the 2001 was 45 years old already. That mean he was finally starting be affected by father time. What happened to Ricky from 1998 to 1999 was him being a driver/owner and that meant age or amount of cup starts didn't really affect him yet. Rudd was due for a down year in 2002 if we use your 550 cup start theory because Rudd had over 700 starts by 2002 and that meant you only can beat the odds so often. Dale Jarrett- While people like to Say Dale's drivers was really affect by Dale's death, there is a couple problems with it. Robert Yates themselves was on the decline and the fact is they had to do an agreement with Roush around September of 2003. Dale Jarrett had his best success as a crew with Todd Parrott. Dale Jarrett was 44 when the 2001 season started. Dale Jarrett declined from 1999 to 2000. The fact is age was starting to affect him. Rusty Wallace- While Rusty himself admitted he was affect by Dale's death on the track, Rusty himself was on the downside of his career by that time. While Rusty had 4 wins in 2000, Rusty only had 1 win a season from 1997 to 1999. Rusty was competitive in those 3 seasons with 3 wins, and top 10 points finishes. The thing is Rusty turned 40 in August of 1996. His age was starting to show in 1997, the fact is Rusty 4 wins in season might have been a fluke in 2000. Terry Labonte - He was not really affect by Dale's death the race track from a performance if you look at his Stats after his 1996 cup championship. Terry Labonte in 1999 only had 7 top 10's and in 2000, Terry only had 6 top 10's despite missing 2 races. The fact is Terry was on his downside of his career and the truth is his terrible 2001 and 2002 seasons would have happen even if Dale didn't die. Sterling Marlin - Dale's death affected his life off the track thanks to idiot fans blaming him for Dale's death. Sterling Marlin being affected from a performance standpoint from Dale's death really is extremely questionable. I am saying that because even without Dale's death, Sterling wouldn't have been the same driver after his neck injury. Some injuries have affected drivers big time like Darrell Waltrip wasn't competitive for the most part after his 1995 Winston all star race crash that gave him injuries. The other thing was Sterling Marlin was going to 46 years in 2003 and the truth is coming back being the same driver would be hard no matter how you look at it. 1176. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Reutimann didn't exactly have a long future in NASCAR, he's 42 years old and might've already been shown signs of degradation in 2011." Unfortunately MWR became a much better team during the offseason and competed for wins with Bowyer and Truex. Even Brian Vickers had good finishes... at short tracks!! This has allowed some people to say that Reutimann was somehow holding the team back, never mind that he performed the best of the whole team in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. After one bad year, he was let go by Aaron's and written off by many people. 1177. Eric posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I did read you post before my post on 1172. What I meant by experimenting not only parts. In your adjusting the season total, I thought you didn't included experimental race set ups. Cup teams preparing for chase races just don't do parts for experimenting. They even do race set ups for preparing the chase. The fact is some race setups can work on similar tracks. 1178. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penske Racing was really good in 2000, even Mayfield of all people scored multiple wins and led lots of laps in other races he might have won if not for blown motors or other woes. They really had their cars hooked up that season, which explains Rusty winning 4 times despite him being a driver who had a tendency to throw a lot of wins away. 1179. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does no one get this? Jeff is 'co-owner' in name only! He has no control over the 48. Also, just on the consistency bit... Remember Jeff's 2007 and 2009 seasons were only surpassed by Cale Yarborough in 1977 as the most consistent years ever. Jeff has never had any political, and as far as contracts are concerned Jeff signed that lifetime deal before Jimmie was even a thought. How many times has Jeff been lightyears faster than Jimmie and not won because he wouldn't put the 48 in the wall? How many times has Jeff been humiliating, and Chad publically steals resources from him? There has been more than bullying at Hendrick, but Chad has more clout there than any one other than Hendrick, and he will do anything to win, whether lie, cheat, or wreck the competition. Chad and Jimmie have risen to be Hendricks pet since 2008 (and the screwball behavior started before it) and now get his support in their behavior. Remember the 2004(5?) Herbie movie? Jeff is Herbie, and Chad and Jimmie are Trip Murphy (though not to the extent of causing 35 car wrecks). 1180. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Changing the subject here and lets talk about that Superbowl a few years back when the Arizona Cardinals nearly pulled off the upset of all upsets only to come up short in the end but had the Cardinals won that Superbowl it might have been just as shocking as the Giants defeating the Patriots the year before. 1181. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.06.2012 - 9:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin, remember the Cardinals lost that on a bad call, so we got denied that moment in history. 1182. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see, NicoRosbergFan, that I'm not the only one who realizes that Jeff Gordon is "co-owner" of the #48 the in name only, the same way that Mark Martin was listed as the owner of the #17 car or a number of years. and Chad Knaus' bullying of the Hendrick organization probably goes back to the 2004 HMS plane crash. Remember that, until that poinn that season, Jeff Gordon was at least level with Johnson in terms of performance, and had 5 wins and Johnson got his fifth win that season on the day the plane crash happened. But after that, Knaus saw a chance to take over the competition side at Hendrick, and took full advantage. And by the way, NRF, what missed call are you referring to in Super Bowl XLIII? The only one that I can remember was the celebration penalty after the Steelers' eventual GW TD in the end zone that was missed, but that had no impact on the actual outcome of that game. 1183. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Ok, I'll change the subject. Mainly because the counter argument is now over just how much Gordon can do if the 48 were to screw with him and how much Dale's death affected people. These are unprovable theories, they are hair splitters to take the attention off the actually written in stone facts, and basically an admission of defeat. Actually, although the Cardinals for decades and decades have been a monument to fail, the Cardinals of that year were a well constructed and talented team. Kurt Warner got over whatever had got into his head after his stunning Super Bowl 36 loss causing many years of on field craptitude and was looking like two time MVP Kurt Warner again (this can't be proven, but I think after the Spygate scandal came out in '07, giving the '01 Rams a possible excuse as part of the allegations were a Pats employee possibly taping the Rams walkthrough, plus the the Pats infamous Super Bowl 42 loss showing karmic retribution, a big deal for somebody as deeply religious as Kurt, that allowed his head to be clear on the field again). Throw in outstanding wide receivers Larry Fitzgerald who probably has the best hands of anybody in the NFL currently (since Randy Moss isn't Randy Moss anymore) and Anquan Boldin and a pretty good defense, and that season isn't much of a surprise outside of the fact that the Cardinals actually put together a good team. They lost Kurt and have had some of the lamest QB controversies ever (should we start Kolb or Skelton? or how about the towel boy? or one of the cheerleaders?) while Fitzgerald is along with Steve Smith as receivers wasting their primes on garbage teams. Love to see them both sign a one year deal with the Giants or Steelers (with the promise to wrap Ben in bubble wrap for the entire season). 1184. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is another good NFL topic: when the Colts took Andrew Luck #1 and the Redskins took RGIII #2, their were gonna be inevitable debates over who got the better deal. But right now, it is looking like each team hit the jackpot. Luck is exactly what the Colts needed and RGIII is exactly what the Redskins needed. Ever since Jerry Jones Jr Dan Snyder bought the Skins, they have been a pillar of fail. Now RGIII has the Skins fans absolutely pumped over the moon (he has had basically the exact opposite effect on The Skins fan base that Cam Newton has had on the Panthers fan base which is a HUGE compliment to RGIII). And Andrew Luck just keeps finding ways to win and has made Indy's decision to ship out first ballot HOFer and Indy icon Peyton Manning not be questioned. Luck has the better record, but has a better organization with a better owner (every team except the Cowboys has a better owner than The Head of The Lollipop Kids in Munchkinland Dan Snyder) and an easier schedule. I am calling it a draw so far. 1185. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you'll have a hard time ever convincing anyone where I live (Baltimore, MD) that the Colts have a better orgainzation as long as the Irsay family owns the franchise. Now I'm not necessarily of that opinion, but almost everyone else where I live does. And the downfall of the Redskins goes back a lot further than when Dan Snyder bought the team from the family of Jack Kent Cooke. It actually goes back to Joe Gibbs' first retirement after the 1992 season. Sure, Snyder has made some horrific decisions, but they were a mess for six or seven years before he ever bought the team. 1186. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's now official, Brian Scott will drive the #2 Shore Lodge Chevy for RCR in the Nationwide Series in 2013. And although it's not known at this time, Scott may split time in the #2 truck with Tim George, Jr. next season as well. I'll always remember the 1999 NFL Draft when Mike Ditka made the ultimate coaching blunder by trading all of his '99 draft pick picks, as well as two early draft picks for the 2000 NFL Draft, to the Redskins so he could move up FIVE DRAFT POSITIONS to draft Ricky Williams, who only played three years for the Saints. What did the Redskins do? In the 13 seasons since, they have made the playoffs only three times, have a 2-3 playoff record, and never made consecutive playoff appearances. There was never a better chance for a team to start a dynasty in one NFL trade than in that moment, and the Redskins fell flat on their face getting out of the gate. They went 10-6 in '99, and proceeded to post non-winning seasons in each of their next five seasons. For a team that had very good players like Brad Johnson, Stephen Davis, Larry Centers, Irving Fryar, Chris Samuels, Marco Coleman, and LaVar Arrington, as well as Hall of Fame players Bruce Smith and Darrell Green (both of whom were still among the best in the league near the end of their careers), that may be the biggest underachievement in the history of sports. It's only fitting that a team who made other such blunders as firing Marty Schottenheimer after one season, hiring the lazy Steve Spurrier, and the awful Albert Haynesworth signing and debacle, would blow a great opportunity like this. And the fact that they now seem to be heading in the right direction by acquiring players based on performance, rather than "superstardom", after being in limbo for the bulk of the last 20 years is a great thing for Redskins fans. They haven't made consecutive playoff appearances since '90-'92 when they made three appearances in a row, which supports cjs' claim that they have been going downfall since Joe Gibbs' first retirement in '92, and I think they have the talent to do so in the upcoming years. They certainly have the most promising future among the teams in the NFC East, which only means good things for their future playoff bids, as the Giants are struggling to replace their aging veterans, the Cowboys have a schmuck for a GM, and the Eagles have lost every aspect of edginess and toughness that kept them relevant in years past. 1187. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, with Kobe Bryant becoming the 5th player in NBA history to reach 30,000 points, a lot of ESPN shows have been debating whether or not he's one of the top five players in NBA history. The majority of pundits say no, and I saw a re-run of Mike & Mike in the Morning where they ranked their top five. In order, it was: Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Magic Johnson. I'm not a basketball expert, but I like this top five. For all you basketball experts out there, what do you guys think? Yesterday I mentioned that there would be a test at Charlotte Motor Speedway on December 11th and 12th. Every major team will be at the test, including the Wood Brothers, except for Roush and MWR. 1188. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't have Wilt in. He put up huge numbers, but rarely when it truly mattered. Besides, I have always felt his numbers are overrated (except for his 20,000 women, that is exceptional) 1189. JG24FanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I see, NicoRosbergFan, that I'm not the only one who realizes that Jeff Gordon is "co-owner" of the #48 the in name only" Sorry to burst your bubble, but the ownership is a part of his lifetime contract, and since you probably wouldn't know this, Gordon is the man who appointed Chad Knaus and landed the Lowe's sponsorship. All you have to do to clarify this is look it up and read the history. Gordon's share of the 48 team is 75%, and his share in all of Hendrick Motorsports is 25%. 1190. Talon64 posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's now official, Brian Scott will drive the #2 Shore Lodge Chevy for RCR in the Nationwide Series in 2013. And although it's not known at this time, Scott may split time in the #2 truck with Tim George, Jr. next season as well." It would've made more sense for RCR to put Gaughan in the #2 in Nationwide and Scott in the #2 in Trucks. Scott's runs in the #18 last year showed that Trucks is where he makes the most impact, and then RCR can settle with Gaughan in Nationwide. But remember when Michael Annett was a do-nothing driver? Then halfway through last year there were people thinking he should replace Almirola in the #43 CUP car, because of what he was doing with the Nationwide team. So who knows, maybe Scott will actually prove he's worth something. Or he'll continue to wreck cars and Childress will can him early in the year like he did with John Wes Townley. It could go either way. 1191. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey what would be a good title for a book on the New York Jets. 1192. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF, did you hear about what some players had to say about Cam Newton at the Pro Bowl last year? Sounds like he pissed a lot of players off with his cocky attitude and undeserved sense of entitlement. One player sounded off and called him an asshole, and apparently he dissed future Hall of Fame linebacker Ray Lewis and even turned down a player's request for an autograph for his kid. I think this explains why the AFC players were going after him in what is usually a very leisure game. So it seems like your sentiments for him are also sentiments of some of the league's best players. Here's the link: http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/12/05/cam-newton-was-an-asshole-at-the-2012-pro-bowl-dissed-ray-lewis-according-to-a-report/ 1193. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey what would be a good title for a book on the New York Jets." A Franchise Filled With Super Bowl III and Mediocrity. 1194. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Butt Fumble: The Story Of The New York Jets" 1195. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Awesome! 1196. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Rex Ryan: This Year's the Year" Because Rex has said every year since arriving that that year was "their" year. "Young Guys Drinking a Cup of Joe: The Story of the San Francisco 49ers" 1197. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is a good debate for us: What is the funniest play in NFL history? A) The end of the '72 Super Bowl when the undefeated Dolphins were kicking a field goal that would have put them up (ironically) 17-0. Instead the play was botched, the holder picked up ball, ran around a bit, reared back to throw it but dropped it behind his head which the Redskins picked up and ran in for a touchdown, leading to the hilarious clip of that Miami player on the sidelines yelling "DAY-YUM!" B) That special teams play by the expansion Tampa Bay Yucks where the kicker (or punter, I can't remember the exact play) somehow lost the ball, it was laying on the ground and he went to kick it where it was at (which is hilarious in and of itself) and whiffed by at least eighteen inches, falling down in the process. C) Not technically a play, but when that fan in Minnesota ran onto the field in between plays, grabbed the football, and got decked by one of the Vikings Purple People Eaters (Jim Marshall maybe? not sure). D) Mark Sanchez's Butt Fumble. My vote is for D. Maybe I am just too close to it, after all that Yucks play was really damn hilarious, but I can't watch that play enough. Even the name is funny. Try to say "Butt Fumble" out loud without laughing. How about you guys, which is your pick or do you have one that I have not included and need to look for on YouTube? 1198. JG24FanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official as of today: Brad Keselowski is American Driver of The Year! He becomes the first driver since Gordon in 2001 to win the most races,the Title,best average finish and take the DOY. And BTW did anybody care that Gordon won the Myers Brothers award? 1199. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The photo for the cover of the Jets book is in this column: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/jets/rear_ended_kXOSa5WP7vB1qpKIwJA5pL 1200. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One of the chapters of that book would be called The Fake Spike Game & The Rich Kotite Years. 1201. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Not surprised one bit about Newton. I really really really can't stand him. He does these ridiculous poses everytime he runs for a first down no matter how many points they are losing by (usually a lot) or how bad their record is (bad). 1202. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's official as of today: Brad Keselowski is American Driver of The Year!" I would be more excited by this if Ryan Newman hadn't won it in '03. Kinda dimishes it. 1203. JG24FanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I would be more excited by this if Ryan Newman hadn't won it in '03. Kinda dimishes it." 8 wins-11 poles-17 Top 5's,and you gotta remember that 2003 wasn't the best year for production, hence why Newman won it. Come on, you should be happy your boy is so honored. 1204. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, it was the Bucs kicker who miserably failed to kick the ball when it was on the ground back. Also, it was the Dolphins kicker Garo Yepremian who almost "threw away" and "fumbled" (awesome puns) the Dolphins perfect season in Super Bowl VII against the Redskins, not the holder. I don't remember when a fan tried to take the ball away from the Vikings back during the Purple People Eaters days, but I do remember back in '05 (I think) during a game between the Packers and Bengals when a fan ran out onto the field and literally took the football from Brett Favre's hands (which should be added to Favre's long list of turnovers) and ran with it the other way. The best part of that was as he was running and dodging security, two security personnel collided with each other at full speed, which was just hysterical! And I would also add Jim Marshall's "Wrong Way Run" to the list of funny plays when he returned a fumble 66 yards into his own endzone against the 49ers in 1964, which is pretty ironic considering how he is revered as being one of the most intelligent players in NFL history, not to mention the fact that he holds the NFL record for most fumble recoveries in a career. My favorite part of the play was at the very end when he flipped the ball towards the stands of the nearly empty Kezar Stadium, almost as if to say "Yeah I just scored! Take that!" As embarrassing as that play was, he should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and in an odd way, I think that play only helped grow his legacy. Also Leon Lett's fumble in Super Bowl XXVII was pretty funny because it was completely avoidable. The story goes that as he was running, he saw himself on the Jumbotron and tried "placing" the ball over the goal line like how Michael Irvin always did it, only to have it knocked out of his hand and go through the endzone for a touchback just before he reached the goal line by Don Beebe. Another funny moment came in 1997 when Bills quarterback Alex Van Pelt spiked the ball on 4th down, resulting in a turnover on downs and caused the Bills to lose the game. And who could forget about Patriots offensive lineman Dan Connolly's 71-yard kickoff return against the Packers two years ago. When he first picked up the football, he had both hands holding onto it so he wouldn't fumble. But once he broke through the first line of defense, he seemingly "turned on the jets" and started to really run, making it all the way down to inside the 5-yard line before sadly being tackled. And then the next play he's back to playing on the o-line where he receives no glory. Oh well, he at least had a shining moment in his career. Those are some more funny plays that I can think of. 1205. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And when I say that Garo Yepremian almost cost the Dolphins their perfect season, I don't mean that the Dolphins were going to lose because there was only about two minutes left in the game at that point, but it at least gave the Redskins a chance to tie it up with another score should a successful onside kick or turnover occur. Also, does anyone else automatically think of that play when they think of the '72 Dolphins? 1206. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, the NFL Network is starting to act like ESPN with all this Peyton Manning love. I mean I get he's a future Hall of Famer and has led the Broncos to a division title with four games to go, but this "Peyton lovefest" is starting to get on my nerves. It doesn't help that he's playing a lousy team (and I say this as an extremely irritated Raiders fan since the last three years of slow progress went out the window once the season began) and is sure to be mentioned over and over throughout and following the broadcast. 1207. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gus Frerotte! How could I forget his headbutting of a wall and subsequent concussion? 1208. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "literally took the football from Brett Favre's hands (which should be added to Favre's long list of turnovers)" Ha! "And I would also add Jim Marshall's "Wrong Way Run" to the list of funny plays when he returned a fumble 66 yards into his own endzone against the 49ers in 1964" Can't believe I forgot that one. "but this "Peyton lovefest" is starting to get on my nerves" They do give "One-Time" too much love. It will only be worse when shreds the horrible Raiders defense tonight. "Come on, you should be happy your boy is so honored." You are right, it is an honor. But couldn't they have given it to somebody in drag racing or Indy racing in '03? 1209. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn I totally forgot about Frerotte! My mom hasn't followed football since the Vikings lost to the "Dirty Birds" in '98, but whenever she hears the name Gus Frerotte, she automatically brings up him headbutting the wall and getting a concussion. 1210. 18fan posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Garo's Gaffe was awesome. 1211. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I would be more excited by this if Ryan Newman hadn't won it in '03. Kinda diminishes it." Or how about when Stewart won it last year? I know that he won 5 of the 10 Chase races, the most since the Chase's inception, but I don't think that having an incredible Chase makes him worthy of being named Driver of the Year considering how invisible he was during the regular season. "you gotta remember that 2003 wasn't the best year for production, hence why Newman won it." Which brings me to my next point. The best drivers throughout the course of the season were Kyle Busch (flopped during the Chase), Jeff Gordon (invisible during the Chase), Jimmie Johnson (showed signs of choking during the Chase, which became more evident in 2012), and Carl Edwards (had a season almost identical to Matt Kenseth in '03, including the lone win at Las Vegas). There was really nobody worthy of winning the award, so they just gave it to the guy who had the most wins and turned the most heads during the season, just like they did in '03 with Newman. And isn't it ironic that both of them beat out "One-win Mr. Consistency" drivers in Kenseth and Edwards. That being said, Brad was the most deserving of this award and this is something he can pat himself on the back for. I don't think these silly awards mean anything because often times they're just extra awards given out to that year's champion, but if anyone was deserving of it, it would be Brad. 1212. David posted: 12.06.2012 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ok, I'll change the subject. Mainly because the counter argument is now over just how much Gordon can do if the 48 were to screw with him and how much Dale's death affected people. These are unprovable theories, they are hair splitters to take the attention off the actually written in stone facts, and basically an admission of defeat." As usual, you get the last word. But I really could not care less, considering that I'm not admitting defeat by any means. It will have to remain a closed subject. It is a stalemate, and let's try to avoid this discussion in the future, shall we? "Or how about when Stewart won it last year? I know that he won 5 of the 10 Chase races, the most since the Chase's inception, but I don't think that having an incredible Chase makes him worthy of being named Driver of the Year considering how invisible he was during the regular season." Maybe it is the fact that he had such an incredible turnaround from most of the regular season. 1213. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, after Garo's gaffe in Super Bowl VII, the Redskins DID get the ball back, but did nothing with it. Let's also remember that, not long before that happened, another bizarre play took place when Billy Kilmer was on target to TE Jerry Smith, who was wide open, but the ball hit the crossbar, the goal posts being on the goal line back then. But the Redskins did get the ball back after scoring on that gaffe by Garo. The irony of that was that the holder for the Dolphins was QB Earl Morrall. And DSFF, you mentioned that someone in Minnesota picked up the ball and was decked once. I don't know if that ever happened in Minnesota, but I can tell you that actually did happen in Baltimore. One time, and I think it miht have been on a Monday Night game against the Dolphins, someone ran onto the field at Memorial Stadium and picked up the ball, and LB Mike Curtis decked him. Afterwards, Curtis was criticized by some of his teammates, who asked him what he thought he was doing, and how it embarrassed the Colts. Curtis responded by saying "That guy broke a city ordinance, and I enforced it. And if he does it again, I'll do it again". 1214. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, for those that haven't seen it, I've revealed the first part of my list of the 40 greatest Cup series drivers of all-time revealing drivers 31-40. I go into it in much more detail, but here's the listing of drivers 31-40: 31. Harry Gant 32. Geoff Bodine 33. Rex White 34. Jeff Burton 35. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 36. Davey Allison 37. Kurt Busch 38. Kyle Busch 39. Neil Bonnett 40. Denny Hamlin A more detailed look at the career statistics and accomplishments of these 10 drivers can be seen in my blog, and drivers 21-30 will be revealed in the next blog on this subject. 1215. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Mike Curtis was one of the best hitters in pro football history, and doesn't get the credit he deserves for how valuable he was to that Colts defense back in the '60s and '70s. I still think he should have been named MVP of Super Bowl V as I don't believe a player on the losing team should be awarded MVP of a championship game, as Chuck Howley was for the Dallas Cowboys. I also think Curtis should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, and I'm surprised that he isn't in it already. Were it not for Earl Morrall, the Dolphins don't go undefeated during that '72 season. And I'll never get the logic that players (such as Alex Smith just recently) can lose their jobs due to injury if they were playing so well prior to the injury. Of the Dolphins' 17 wins in '72, Griese only started 6 games, with the Super Bowl being his only playoff start. Now granted, Morrall started to regress as the season went on because he didn't have the talent that Griese had to play great for an entire season (although I still think Morrall was the greatest backup quarterback in NFL history), but Griese pretty much got the job back once his leg injury healed, which came just in time to lead the Dolphins over the Steelers in the AFC Championship Game and then over the Redskins in the Super Bowl. Oddly enough, despite their undefeated season, the Dolphins were 2-point underdogs going into the Super Bowl. Go figure. Another thing that never gets mentioned is the fact that the Dolphins made three straight Super Bowls in the early '70s. As much credit as Marv Levy and the Bills get for making four straight Super Bowls from '90-'93, losing all four of them (ironically all were to NFC East teams), the Dolphins made three straight Super Bowls from '71-'73, losing the first one to the Cowboys and then winning the next two against the Redskins and Vikings. I don't recall hearing any football pundit state that fact, which amazes me because no other team, other than the Bills, has ever reached three straight Super Bowls. And for the Dolphins to win two out of those three I think is even more impressive than the Bills losing four in a row. 1216. murb posted: 12.06.2012 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't think that having an incredible Chase makes him worthy of being named Driver of the Year" Exactly. The Driver of The Year should actually be Driver of the YEAR, not Driver of the Last Ten Races. What a crock. Brad absolutely deserves it this year though. 1217. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.06.2012 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was Mike Curtis in Baltimore. My mistake. But it was awesome as hell. And cjs, did you really rank Dale Jr ahead of Davey? I don't wanna get back in argument mode cause we are having a fun time with these football discussions, but that really fires me up. "DSFF, you'll have a hard time ever convincing anyone where I live (Baltimore, MD) that the Colts have a better orgainzation as long as the Irsay family owns the franchise." Yeah, I forgot about that one. In your honor, I'll set the next Mayflower truck I see on fire. Hands down the sleaziest, biggest dick move in sports history. The Baltimore Colts were a tradition. To this day, my Dad still refers to the Colts as "Baltimore" simply out of habit. He'll ask something like "How did Baltimore do today?" to which I'll respond by saying something like "they lost to the Steelers" then he'll say "I thought they were playing New England" then I'll realize. 1218. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF beat me to it, as I was surprised that Davey would be ranked lower than Junior, considering how they each have 19 career wins despite Davey having 278 less starts than Junior. To be honest cjs, I'm surprised you even put Junior on your list as I think his massive underachieving should disqualify him from any "all-time" list. "Hands down the sleaziest, biggest dick move in sports history." Browns fans will probably disagree with you, but that was a pretty dirty thing to do by former owner Robert Irsay. To avoid losing the rights of the team to the city of Baltimore after they got word that he was seeking to leave Baltimore for Indianapolis, he immediately signed a deal with the mayor of Indianapolis before the Maryland state legislature could pass a bill that would cause him to lose his legal rights over the team. 1219. David posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't wanna get back in argument mode cause we are having a fun time with these football discussions" I thought you said it wasn't even an argument. *chuckles* Maybe I ought to leave, since I really don't have a place in these football discussions. I would LOVE to see cjs's rationale for ranking Junior in front of Allison. Of course, he also left Ernie Irvan, LeeRoy Yarbrough, Donnie Allison, and Tim Richmond off his list as well. I can't wait to see the other 30 drivers. 1220. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul and DSFF, I know it's been a while, but Dale, Jr. has accomplished quite a bit during his career. Check out my blog post for more information, but both Dale, Jr. has things like a Daytona 500 win, four consecutive Talladega wins, as well as wins at Richmond and Bristol, an All-Star Race win, and successive wins at Phoenix on his record. And as I've mentioned, if Davey had not been killed, he might be in the top 10-12 all-time, if not higher than that, but I can't judge on what might have been, but rather on what he did. And also, once you get beyond the top 25-30, you can pretty much pick the names out of a hat that have pretty similar accomplishments and list them in any order you want to. And the one thing that held Dale, Jr.'s career back, and it's not brought up that much, is that fire he had in that sports car in Sonoma in the middle of his greatest season in 2004. I don't think he ever recovered from that. If it hadn't been for that, I believe he might have been champion that year, and if he had won the championship that year, I believe his career would have skyrocketed, and he would be seriously battling with Jimmie Johnson, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and Matt Kenseth as the top driver over the past 5-7 years. 1221. Paul posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Man that Broncos offensive line and Knowshon Moreno have run all over the Raiders defense tonight. I know that Peyton Manning is going to get all the credit, but that running game made things much easier for him tonight. Oh, and the Raiders' inability to score on offense. Good God this was a hideous game to watch. 1222. 18fan posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an interesting racing related question. There are several active drivers that have certain racetracks where they are better than everyone else almost every time they race there. Who do you think is the most dominant on their particular dominant track? This question is kind of hard to understand and I apologize for it. Let me give an example: Pretty much you know every time the series races at Dover, Jimmie Johnson is the favorite and dominated almost every race with the CoT. 1223. David posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hmm, interesting take on Dale Jr.'s 2004 season. But didn't you contradict yourself by saying that you could not have judged Allison's career by what could have been, and the next paragraph you do just that to Junior's career. 1224. David posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here's an interesting racing related question. There are several active drivers that have certain racetracks where they are better than everyone else almost every time they race there. Who do you think is the most dominant on their particular dominant track? This question is kind of hard to understand and I apologize for it. Let me give an example: Pretty much you know every time the series races at Dover, Jimmie Johnson is the favorite and dominated almost every race with the CoT." Marcos Ambrose at Watkins Glen. 1225. cjs3872 posted: 12.06.2012 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember David, that Davey Allison also had such a moment at Pocono in 1992, and although we never did get to see the long-term effects of that crash, I believe it did have some effect on him the rest of that season and in the races he ran in 1993, especially on the speedways because he ran worse on them that year than he ever had before. Even so, he was as high as second in points at one stage in that season. But we never did see the long-term effects that crash had on Davey because he didn't live long enough, but it could have had a similar effect on him as the fire at Sonoma did to Dale, Jr., and by the time Dale, Jr. got over the effects of that fire, his DEI team was spiraling out of control, and his career went along with it. And by the way, add to the list of those that didn't make my top 40 list 2-time Southern 500 winner Greg Biffle, and Kevin Harvick, who has won every major race except the Southern 500, so yes, that list was a tough one to crack. 1226. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan brings up an interesting topic. Here's my list of the best driver active drivers at all 23 of the current Cup tracks: Atlanta: Jeff Gordon Bristol: Denny Hamlin Charlotte: Kasey Kahne Chicago: Tony Stewart Darlington: Jeff Gordon Daytona: Matt Kenseth Dover: Jimmie Johnson Fontana: Jimmie Johnson Homestead: Jeff Gordon Indy: (tie) Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart Kansas: Matt Kenseth (both surfaces) Kentucky: Brad Keselowski (has the best average finish through 2 races) Las Vegas: Tony Stewart Loudon: Denny Hamlin Martinsville: (tie) Jimmie Johnson, Denny Hamlin Michigan: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (seriously) Phoenix: Kevin Harvick (new surface), Jimmie Johnson (old surface) Pocono: (tie) Jeff Gordon, Denny Hamlin Richmond: Kyle Busch Sonoma: Jeff Gordon Talladega: Jeff Gordon Texas: Denny Hamlin Watkins Glen: Marcos Ambrose Of course, there were a number of tracks that I didn't list their names by that you could argue that Gordon, Johnson, or Hamlin are the best at in the sport right now. 1227. 18fan posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting about Kentucky: Kyle and Brad have combined to lead 73% of the laps completed at Kentucky and have one win each. 1228. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF: I would be more excited by this if Ryan Newman hadn't won it in '03. Kinda dimishes it. JG24FanForever: 8 wins-11 poles-17 Top 5's,and you gotta remember that 2003 wasn't the best year for production, hence why Newman won it." That would be a year to look outside NASCAR for your selection. Much like 2002 (went to Cristiano da Matta who won 7 CART races including 4 in a row when no NASCAR driver was close to dominant), or 1996 (John Force was picked over weak Cup champion Terry Labonte, choker Jeff Gordon, mediocre CART champion Jimmy Vasser, and the even more mediocre IRL champs Buzz Calkins/Scott Sharp...I hope Calkins wasn't even nominated, but I don't know and I'm too lazy to look it up...at least Sharp also won a 24 Hours of Daytona that year so there could have been some justification made for him). Honestly, I'd have given '96 to Gordon though in the year of the CART/IRL split, although I'm happy John Force at least got one in his reign of terror. Kenseth was consistent but not really all THAT consistent (considering how miserable the end of his season was), Newman was dominant but it was essentially strategy-induced dominance with zero consistency, and Jeff Gordon actually had the highest average percent led but he wouldn't be a realistic choice either. Although the defection of some of the CART teams to the IRL in '02-'03 meant that the Champ Car/IndyCar fields were about equal in talent from 2003-2007, there was too much parity on the IRL side so I would probably go for 7-time race winner Paul Tracy in 2003 although his competition was definitely weaker than that of the previous CART champions... Unless there was a drag racer that year who was considerably more dominant (I don't really follow NHRA). Actually, Jeff Burton is the selection on cjs's list that makes me cringe even more than Junior does (although neither of them would come close to making my own top 40 list). I've always felt most people badly overrate the strength of competition in the second half of the '90s (yeah, there were a bunch of legends still competing but most of them were good for at most 1-2 wins a year in that period). Gordon, Jarrett, Martin, Burton, AND B. Labonte all had their wins greatly inflated simply because they were the only drivers at their peak competing against a bunch of legends like Earnhardt, Rusty, Elliott, Rudd, G. Bodine, Irvan, etc... who were at their nadir. I wouldn't even call Burton or B. Labonte major. Jarrett I would, but just barely (and I would squeeze him into a top 40 list, but not by much). 2001-2004 was a much more competitive period than 1995-1998 or so because most of the stars from the '80s/early '90s were still as competitive as they were in the second half of the '90s and some were in better equipment (Elliott, Rudd), not to mention the arrival of Stewart, Junior, Kenseth, Harvick, Ku. Busch, Biffle, Newman, Johnson, Kahne, and Edwards on top of that meant there was a great deal of parity. Each one of Junior's wins in this period is probably more valuable than each one of Burton's in the late '90s for this reason (ooh, Jeff Burton was better than an over-the-hill Rusty Wallace and Terry Labonte in '99, who cares?). Not to mention that Junior was at least the premier driver at DEI (even though I thought Steve Park was better before his wreck, he never really got to show it) while Burton was second-fiddle to Martin at Roush from 1996-98, then second-fiddle to Kenseth/Busch from '02-'04, then second-fiddle to Harvick (himself pretty second-rate) his entire stint at RCR. Basically Burton's entire career adds up to what he did in 1999-2001. Is that enough for a top 40 list? Not in my book. However, I'm pleased by cjs's surprisingly high rating for Geoff Bodine, considering how others sell him short. I don't know that even I would put him over Davey Allison but I'd certainly think about it, since Allison is way overrated because of what he might have accomplished (he had a VERY similar trajectory to Junior really if you look at 1987-1993 and 2000-2006 straight up...who's to say he might not have had a similar dropoff?) I'd certainly rate Davey higher than Junior, because I do rate that period higher, but I rate Junior's peak period MUCH higher than I do Jeff Burton's. But too many people sell Rudd, Gant, Bonnett, G. Bodine, and Irvan short because they didn't win titles and (except for Gant) had pretty controversial personalities at times. DSFF makes fun of Bodine for not living up to Earnhardt's standards. Just like it's easy to make fun of Kyle Busch for not living up to Jimmie Johnson's standards today. But in the context of inferior drivers like Jeff Burton or Kevin Harvick, I think Bodine and the Busch brothers hold up okay. I think people like to overrate drivers who are likable (Bobby Labonte) and underrate drivers who aren't (Denny Hamlin) using misguided metrics (i.e. points systems that care about consistency rather than winning). Hamlin already impresses me more than B. Labonte, but I've said my piece on that many, many times. Having said that, I'm happy cjs hasn't sold short many of those drivers and although even I myself would probably rate Davey higher, I'm happy somebody is resisting the temptation to rank him strictly over Bonnett, Gant, Rudd, Irvan, Bodine, etc... due to potential because a lot of the same things could be said about many of those drivers' careers (what if Gant had ever had a marquee ride? Etc...) I would guess he will rank Irvan and Yarbrough due to marquee race wins (hell, even though I, second to Red in making fun of their importance, will admit that in Yarbrough's day they meant a lot), and leave Richmond and Kulwicki enough due to not enough wins since he doesn't seem to be figuring potential into it based on where he rated Davey. Donnie Allison? The Fight is a great story and all, but I just don't see him credibly making a top 40 list. Might I take him over Burton or Junior though? Hmm... 1229. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Each one of Junior's wins in this period is probably more valuable than each one of Burton's in the late '90s for this reason" Okay, I didn't mean that like all 19 of Junior's wins > all 21 of Burton's. I just meant that on average Junior faced much more competition for his non-restrictor plate wins than Burton did in his wins. The reason I might still rank Burton higher than Junior is because of the sizable percentage of dominance Junior had on plate tracks with absurdly dominant cars, not because Burton competed in a "more competitive period" (which was actually the least competitive period since the mid-1970s). Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin > either But hey, I'm happy cjs put them on the list at all. I expected him to leave Kyle and Denny (and for that matter Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan) off due to "emotional weakness". 1230. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "or 1996...choker Jeff Gordon,..." I don't consider Jeff losing the '96 title a choke. If not for his frequent bad finishes throughout the course of the season (of his 7 non-top ten finishes, 6 of them were finishes of 31st or worse), and his engine woes at Charlotte late in the season, followed by losing a lap early at Rockingham and being unable to regain it despite running with the leaders for the remainder of the race because NASCAR didn't have such an easy welfare system back in the day, Jeff wins that championship handily. Terry Labonte beat him on consistency that season, and while you and I disagree on the effectiveness of the Latford points system, I still believe that the right man won the championship that year by virtue of finishing races and having fewer errors throughout the course of the season, despite having 8 fewer wins than Jeff. "I think people like to overrate drivers who are likable (Bobby Labonte) and underrate drivers who aren't (Denny Hamlin)...Hamlin already impresses me more than B. Labonte" If we rate Bobby over Denny for anything, it's Bobby's ability to perform well in the clutch and not beat himself throughout the course of the race or season. Bobby and Denny each had one serious chance at winning a Cup championship, and both times they had to go toe-to-toe with two all-time greats in Dale Earnhardt and Jimmie Johnson, respectively. The result: Bobby stared down the barrel of Dale's gun, didn't blink, and won the '00 championship. Denny on the other hand stared into the barrel of Jimmie's gun, and not only blinked by shit himself and lost the '10 championship as a result. If you give someone like Bobby a top five car, he'll finish in the top five. If you give someone like Denny a top five car, he may either win the race or make a mistake and finish 17th instead. I'm not denying that Denny is more talented than Bobby was, but I'll take a driver with less talent and more mental toughness like Bobby over a more talented yet weaker driver like Denny every day of the week. "But too many people sell Rudd, Gant, Bonnett, G. Bodine, and Irvan short because they didn't win titles and (except for Gant) had pretty controversial personalities at times." I once said that in a different era, Geoff Bodine could have won 30-40 races and maybe even a championship, and that Harry Gant could have won at least 50 races and at least one championship had he started racing full-time in Cup at a much earlier age. Had Ernie Irvan not gotten hurt in '94, Richard Petty may still be the only 7-time Cup champion in NASCAR history. And while I don't think Ricky Rudd or Neil Bonnett were good enough to win a championship period, both of them left their marks on this sport (Neil over a short period of time, Ricky over a long period of time) and I think they are ranked perfectly in the 31-40 bracket on cjs' list. 1231. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I do not have Ernie Irvan, LeeRoy Yarbrough, Donnie Allison, Greg Biffle, Kevin Harvick, or Tim Richmond in my top 40 at all, and all have multiple big wins in their careers, nor do I have Alan Kulwicki in there despite his 1992 championship. And Jeff Burton got caught up in Roush's reorganization in the early 2000s, as he went with younger drivers, and left Burton holding the bag, which is why he went winless after 2001 there. Remember that he was Roush's only winner in 2001, the same year that Mark Martin had his worst year to date, and the same year that Matt Kenseth had the worst year of his career to this date. And when you can win at tracks like Loudon, Martinsville, Dover, Bristol, Richmond, Darlington, and Phoenix, that's some accopmlishment. In fact, most of Burton's 21 wins have come of driver's tracks. And he could very easily have won three Southern 500s in a row from 1997-'99, instead of the one he has. And winning the Coca-Cola 600 twice is no small feat, either. In fact, he's one of only four drivers in the last 20 years to win that race twice, and the only one not currently driving for Hendrick Motorsports. 1232. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I have not reached the bracket where Ricky Rudd will be mentioned on my list, as he's above 31st, but your reasons for my listing Gant, Bodine, and Bonnett where I do are spot on. And of course, as I've mentioned, Irvan is not on my list at all. My listing of drivers 21-30 may be coming within the next week, and judging by how some posters view some of the drivers in that bracket, the listing of drivers 21-30 may upset some people on here. 1233. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "leave Richmond and Kulwicki enough due to not enough wins" I obviously meant to say leave Richmond and Kulwicki OFF... Oh yeah, and I forgot to respond to this and I really wanted to. "Do you think that Mark Martin's historical ranking has improved or diminished since he was initially supposed to retire (at the end of 2005)?" Fallen HARD. It was very popular in the late '90s for Mark Martin fans (especially those who hated Jeff Gordon, which were numerous) to proclaim that Martin was the "real" talent while Gordon was the fake. These people tended to look at IROC or Busch results, noting Martin's dominance and Gordon's mediocrity there and using that as proof that Martin had the greater natural talent and Gordon had the superior equipment (even though even in that era it seemed to be Martin dominating on the 1.5-mile cookie cutters more and Gordon beating him on the driver's tracks more, and in an era when the Ford Taurus in general seemed to have more horsepower than the Chevy Monte Carlo). Martin's still a top 30 driver or something, but I think he's VERY overrated now. Looking at the major modern era drivers who never won championships, there's usually a what if involved. What if Neil Bonnett/Ernie Irvan hadn't had career-interrupting injuries? What if Davey Allison/Tim Richmond hadn't died? What if Geoff Bodine/Harry Gant had had more reliable equipment at times? What if Ricky Rudd didn't end up driving for almost every single team except Yates not at their peak (which was no fault of his...is it HIS fault he managed to be at Hendrick in ALL FOUR of the team's worst years)? We can't judge Martin this way at all. Yeah, he lost a half decade when he failed in Cup the first time, but since he signed with Roush, he consistency had theoretically top equipment from 1988-2009. He was NEVER seriously injured. He was ALWAYS the leader of the team and Roush's favorite (okay, he wasn't Hendrick's, and maybe he wasn't Roush's the last couple of years). He was dominant in Busch and IROC, and won on a wide variety of tracks, so what was missing? Quite frankly, he never had a season that deserved it. 1990 Earnhardt was better. 1994 Earnhardt was better (and Rusty, and Irvan, and I'd even say Geoff Bodine despite his comical inconsistency due to his dominance). 1998 Gordon was better. 2002 Stewart was better. 2009 Johnson was better. All those drivers except Gordon look even better NOW than they did at the time. Is he even the best non-champion of the modern era? I'm really not sure. I AM more impressed by Tim Richmond's 1986, Harry Gant's 1991, Davey Allison's 1992 (yeah, I call him overrated so I guess I'm being a hypocrite), and Ernie Irvan's 1994 more than any season Martin has ever had. I think when people automatically call Martin that they're selling a LOT of drivers short who should be in the discussion. I would probably give Harry Gant that title. Hell, if Kyle Busch/Denny Hamlin get 10 more wins without winning a title, I might even give it to THEM. Martin's period of dominance came in the same late '90s period as J. Burton/B. Labonte which was in retrospect, very shallow. Too many top rides with questionable drivers in them (Mayfield/Irwin/Little/Lepage/Skinner/everyone in the #25) or declining veterans in them, while the myriad of drivers with potential (Nemechek/W. Burton/Hamilton/Craven/insert whoever you like) who might have done better in some of those rides were off driving crap. I think ALL the drivers in that period now are overrated because the competition was so shallow. And if even Jarrett and the Labonte brothers can while Martin can't despite not lacking equipment? I mean, duh, I'd rank Martin over Jarrett and B. Labonte due to his versatility and ability to win everywhere, etc... But it's very telling that he competed in such an era. Kenseth's 2003 title may have been kind of a farce but he managed to get it done in a much deeper era than Martin's peak period when he DIDN'T. As for Mark Martin's 1990 and the Richmond penalty, I see the point, but quite frankly, if Martin had won the title that way and was now a 1-time champion, we'd all be complaining about him winning a title that way when Earnhardt was SO MUCH MORE dominant. Much like we do with Kenseth now, except 2003 was a season when nobody really deserved it since Newman didn't either. Had Martin actually won it in 1990, it would have been a robbery due to a too consistency-driven points system like Terry Labonte in 1996. And it's really funny people who continue to complain about this penalty never even mention Dale Jarrett getting penalized for "leaking oil" with a few laps to go at Watkins Glen in 1997 when it was just tire smoke, which cost him WAY more than 14 points (in a race Jeff Gordon jumped several restarts to win). Had Gordon been penalized or Jarrett not, that would have been enough to make the difference. I don't even like Jarrett, but his penalty was FAR less justified, FAR more severe, and he would have had a FAR better claim to the '97 title than Martin did in '90 (hell, Jarrett actually led the most laps in '97). So why does everyone go on about Martin in '90 and not Jarrett in '97? Just because Jarrett did win a title later? But in '98/'99, I don't recall anybody complaining about Watkins Glen '97 either. I used to even have high opinions of B. Labonte and J. Burton, but I've definitely changed my mind there. Years of mediocrity have made it far easier to see the relative mediocrity that happened even in their prime, and that has caused me to lower my opinions of everyone in that entire period, but I certainly have much higher opinions of Gordon who couldn't have done much better than he did then. Actually Jarrett's looking a little better to me than some of the others since he didn't spend AS MANY seasons around doing nothing as some of his contemporaries did at the end of his career, and came closest to retiring "on time" than anyone did since Rusty. I wouldn't rank him over Martin though, of course. And I really, really, REALLY don't want to see Martin break Harry Gant's oldest winner record. Gant, who retired on time, didn't interfere with many other drivers' career plans, had a much more interesting personality, and quite frankly did more with his weak equipment than Martin ever did with his great equipment, is a LOT cooler and looks more so over time. If Martin HAD really retired in 2005 or B. Labonte after winning the 2003 finale (thereby becoming an artifact of the Winston/pre-chase/pre-gimmick era) or J. Burton in 2009, etc... they would ALL look a LOT cooler and a LOT greater now. Quite frankly, I'm sick of all three of them. I do still like Bobby, but the other two I no longer do. This actually ties in with Tony Stewart deciding not to compete at Indy. My Martin/Kenseth comparison at least. Kenseth managed to win a title in a deep era while Martin couldn't even in a shallow era (and neither of them were lacking for equipment...actually Martin's was stronger). Stewart was unable to win an Indy 500 in its shallowest era in the past half decade at least (through no fault of his own - unreliable Menard engines, etc..., but STILL) so he KNOWS he wouldn't be competitive now in 2013 when there will probably be only 5 or so unworthy drivers in the entire field next year. Not to mention that the Penske cars have been generally slow on ovals the past few years even beyond Will Power's ineptitude on them. 1234. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No sale on Burton or Junior, especially if you're going to list them over Irvan and Richmond. Yeah, I can see the arguments for leaving Yarbrough, Biffle, Harvick, Donnie, and Kulwicki off, but still, I'd take them over Burton and Junior. You've got a point about Burton winning on drivers' tracks. The best argument for Burton is probably 2001, but I just think he wasn't the best driver on his own TEAM for long enough to consider putting him on a list. It would be like if somebody put Helio Castroneves on a top 40 IndyCar list. Yeah, I could see somebody doing it due to his Indy 500 wins, but looking at the rest of his profile, Gil de Ferran owned him (2 CART titles/1 Indy 500 win to 0 CART/IRL titles/2 Indy 500 wins), Sam Hornish owned him (1 IRL title/1 Indy 500 win to 0 IRL titles/0 Indy 500 wins when they were teammates), and Will Power has owned him at least in terms of dominance on the overall season schedule. When somebody has been lagging behind so many teammates as long as Burton (or Castroneves) has, it gets harder for me to take a driver seriously. And when you consider the period when Burton WAS doing most of his winning on drivers' tracks (1997-2000) was a shallow period dominated by Fords, it just doesn't add up to much for me. Not like Tim Richmond's electrifying 1986/LEGENDARY driving style in general or Ernie Irvan's last to first win at Sears Point. Trade Burton, Junior, and B. Labonte (whom I'm sure you've listed) for Irvan, Richmond, and somebody else you probably didn't list (Yarbrough? Dick Hutcherson? Fonty Flock? I don't know) then I'd probably agree... 1235. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I don't view it that way at all for Martin, as I have ranked in the teens on my all-time list. Only two drivers over the last 5-7 years have usurped Mark, and they would be Tony Stewart and, of course, Jimmie Johnson. The one thing that has hurt Mark more than anything over his career is his unwillingness to use his front bumper in key situations. But if anything, his performances over the last five years may elevate him in my eyes, because he's doing things that drivers his age should never be able to do, such as winning five races at the age of 50, and threatening numerous times this past season, including coming within three laps of breaking his career-long Pocono jinx. That doesn't include the poles he won this past season. Had he run the full season, he may have been a legitimate threat for the championship once again. 1236. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't consider Jeff losing the '96 title a choke. If not for his frequent bad finishes throughout the course of the season (of his 7 non-top ten finishes, 6 of them were finishes of 31st or worse), and his engine woes at Charlotte late in the season, followed by losing a lap early at Rockingham and being unable to regain it despite running with the leaders for the remainder of the race because NASCAR didn't have such an easy welfare system back in the day, Jeff wins that championship handily. Terry Labonte beat him on consistency that season, and while you and I disagree on the effectiveness of the Latford points system, I still believe that the right man won the championship that year by virtue of finishing races and having fewer errors throughout the course of the season, despite having 8 fewer wins than Jeff." You're right. I don't really consider that one a choke either, and note that I did say I thought he was the most deserving NASCAR driver for Driver of the Year that year and didn't really significantly criticize the choice of Force. "I'll take a driver with less talent and more mental toughness like Bobby over a more talented yet weaker driver like Denny every day of the week." Yeah, here's the crux of the argument I guess. I would rate by talent. Others would rate by actual results (especially points positions which I don't think matter that much). Perhaps this is the reason cjs listed Burton and Junior and didn't list Irvan and Richmond. Does anyone SERIOUSLY think Burton and Junior had more talent than Irvan and Richmond? If cjs's list are reflecting something other than raw talent, I guess I can't complain, can I? 1237. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I expected him to leave Kyle and Denny (and for that matter Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan) off due to "emotional weakness"." First of all, cjs has never stated or even suggested than Ernie or Geoff were "emotionally weak" drivers. And secondly, the fact that Kyle and Denny are on the list at all is because cjs is smart enough to realize how talented they are, which is a fact that should be known by all race fans. That being said, it's because of the "emotional weakness" that they haven't come through in the big-time races or in the championship picture. Why is Kyle revered by the media as being arguably the most talented driver in the sport, yet only have one top five points finish and has finished outside the top ten in points in 3 of the last 4 years? Why is it that Denny is one of the few drivers that runs well on every oval track and is normally a very calm driver, but choked in his only serious championship contending season? Why is it that both of these drivers are more talented than Bobby Labonte and are on the same level as Tony Stewart, yet have 4 less championships than those former JGR drivers? Why is that? It has nothing to do with talent, or equipment as JGR has only risen in the sport over the last decade. Could it be that Bobby and Tony know how to win when it matters most, and not choke when everything is on the line? Bobby had one chance to win a championship, and he did it by beating the guy who I think is the 2nd greatest driver ever, Dale Earnhardt. And while Tony Stewart has a long history of choking in the big races (Daytona 500, Southern 500) as well as tragically missing the Chase in '06, he has had three legitimate chances to win a championship, including last year when he couldn't do anything for the first 26 races, and each time he won the championship. Denny and Kyle can't get the job done when the pressure is on the line. They have combined for one major win in NASCAR (two if you count Kyle's win in the spring Talladega race in '08), and that was Denny's '10 Southern 500 win, and despite their amazing talents, have had only one serious championship bid between them. Kyle Busch is sort of like the Peyton Manning of NASCAR: Great in the regular season, worthless in the postseason. While Denny is sort of like the Donovan McNabb of NASCAR: Very solid throughout the course of the season, but isn't strong enough to come through for his team in the big races. How many championships do Peyton and McNabb have combined? One, which is more than what their NASCAR counterparts have despite their amazing talents behind the wheel. So getting back to my original point, Kyle and Denny are in the top 40 because of their talents and what they have accomplished in NASCAR, which would be over 20 wins apiece and 4 top five points finishes. But they should be much higher, or at least Kyle should, because of their immense talents. Kyle is higher than Denny on cjs' list despite having never been a serious contender for a championship (unless you count his regular season performances in '08 and '11), so imagine where he would be if he could figure out how to finish in the top five in points. I'm not surprised one bit that cjs put them in his top 40, but they have done so by underachieving in their Cup careers (or at least Kyle has). Of course they're in the top 40, but they should have accomplished enough to be higher than that given their equipment and talent. 1238. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "winning five races at the age of 50" You have a point here but I kind of see 2009 as a fluke since his wildly unexpected great season was surrounded by a bunch of mediocre seasons before and after. Kind of like JPM's 2009 (albeit on a MUCH SMALLER SCALE). 1239. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah okay, the list is based on actual results then (not potential), which is fine. That kind of list is just not a list that interests me much personally... Kyle's miserable chase results are a good argument for him at least, but I'm far more impressed by what Kyle and Denny are doing on the short tracks than what they're not doing on the generic equipment-dominated "big money" races. 1240. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Generic was a good word to use for Charlotte, but definitely wrong for Daytona/Talladega. The plate tracks aren't generic but it's hard to care about their results when ___________ have won on them (insert your own driver names). 1241. Sean posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "First of all, cjs has never stated or even suggested than Ernie or Geoff were "emotionally weak" drivers." Yeah, I thought he said or implied one time that pretty much every driver that never won a title was emotionally weak, even when compared to the worst drivers who did win titles. Maybe I'm imagining that and if I am I apologize. 1242. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well Paul and DSFF, I know it's been a while, but Dale, Jr. has accomplished quite a bit during his career." Not really when you consider he has raced for 13 seasons. "Dale, Jr. has things like a Daytona 500 win" As does Davey. "four consecutive Talladega wins" Davey would have had FIVE consecutive Charlotte wins were it not for Junior Johnson cheating with fuel allowing Geoff Bodine to go 130 miles on his final tank of fuel in the Fall of '91. He won the Fall '90 race, The 1991 Winston, the 1991 World 600, shoulda been the Fall '91 race, then The 1992 Winston, STILL the only driver to win back to back All Star races. "as well as wins at Richmond and Bristol, an All-Star Race win, and successive wins at Phoenix on his record." Davey has two Richmond wins, a Bristol win, and consecutive Phoenix wins in '91 and '92. "And the one thing that held Dale, Jr.'s career back, and it's not brought up that much, is that fire he had in that sports car in Sonoma in the middle of his greatest season in 2004." You know what held Davey's career back? DYING IN 1993!!!! I just fail to see where 19 wins in 13 seasons is better than 19 wins in 6 and 1/2 seasons. Throw in that Davey was more versatile and races all during NASCAR's competitive peak of '85-'95, and you don't even have to play the What Might Have Been Game. Also, where does 2 wins in 5 seasons in HMS equipment factor in? How about being outperformed by Martin Truex in the same equipment in '07 (engine failures aside, Martin won a race and was a factor in others, June was neither)? 1243. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does anyone SERIOUSLY think Burton and Junior had more talent than Irvan and Richmond?" You also have to consider the equipment (Ernie was never in top level equipment for an entire season while totally healthy, Tim was only in top level equipment for one season) and the era in which they both hit their prime (the highest number of race winning organizations, highest number of certified NASCAR legends, low race count) and realize their win totals are much more impressive than June's or Burton's. His list doesn't make one lick of sense to me thus far. 1244. 18fan posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Kyle won at Darlington in 2008. About Neil Bonnett, I know this has nothing to do with him as a driver, but I really liked him as a broadcaster. He and Buddy Baker were awesome together. Geoff Bodine and Ernie Irvan suffered from being great drivers in an extremely competitive era and neither of them were in top flight equipment for very long. Geoff made a start-up Hendrick team competitive and then once he left they had the worst years in their history while Geoff moved on to the fading Junior Johnson and Bud Moore teams before buying AK Racing. With that team he had some mixed results and by 1998 he was over the hill. One thing about Geoff is that he was a hell of a short track driver and he competed against two of the greatest short track drivers of all time, Dale Earnhardt and Rusty Wallace. Ernie was in the good but not great Morgan-McClure team and overdrove his cars a lot, but he some solid wins. He almost always was a major factor in the road races, winning at Watkins Glen in 1991 and Sonoma in 1992 for MMM (Sonoma being the last-to-first race). He also contended at Watkins Glen in 1992 and was part of the awesome 3-way battle for the lead at Sonoma in 1993 with Geoff Bodine and Ricky Rudd. Then he got in the 28 car and finally showed what he could do with a top car, although he still had some of the mistakes from his MMM years. Unfortunately we never got a feel for how Ernie would respond to a late-season championship battle as he got hurt in his first and only legitimate title challenge. If the crash hadn't happened, assuming that RYR still started the 2nd team with Jarrett, I have no doubts that Ernie would've been the one dominating and not DJ, although DJ would've been very competitive as well and the intermediate tracks were never Ernie's strong suit (with the obvious exception of 1993 Charlotte when he led 328 of 334 laps). 1245. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gant, who retired on time, didn't interfere with many other drivers' career plans, had a much more interesting personality, and quite frankly did more with his weak equipment than Martin ever did with his great equipment, is a LOT cooler and looks more so over time." This is my exact reason for why I don't want to see Mark break Harry Gant's record, especially because of his hesitance to exit the sport gracefully and allow drivers with more upside to take over quality rides and try to achieve success at the Cup level. That, along with him having an owner that will surely smear his name all over Mark's achievement, especially since he is a media darling and has the biggest ego for an owner other than Richard Childress. I wouldn't mind seeing Mark win again in the Nationwide or Truck Series, but for several different reasons, as well as Harry Gant's strong likability and coolness, that's one record that I'd rather not see broken. "(hell, Jarrett actually led the most laps in '97)" It should also be noted that Mark Martin led the most laps in '98. Now obviously Jarrett was more deserving of the '97 title than Mark was of the '98 title, especially when you factor in his penalty at Watkins Glen, but based on the fact that Mark led the most laps in a year that was also dominated by Fords, despite being dominated in performance by Jeff Gordon, doesn't hold the laps led statistic in as high regard as it probably should considering how much better the Fords were from '97-'00 and how their best drivers often weren't good enough to win the championship (except for Jarrett in '99). "Perhaps this is the reason cjs listed Burton and Junior and didn't list Irvan and Richmond. Does anyone SERIOUSLY think Burton and Junior had more talent than Irvan and Richmond?" I don't think so (then again, there are a lot of knucklehead Junior Nation fans that might disagree with me). Considering how much more dominating Richmond's '86 season and Irvan's '94 season were in comparison to Burton's '00 season and Junior's '04 season, I think Richmond and Irvan are more talented because of how much better they were in their best seasons than Burton and Junior were. Plus, Richmond and Irvan didn't have as good equipment as Burton and Junior, and also produced more while with smaller teams than Burton and Junior did. Or better yet, I'll put it this way: Tim Richmond had many wins for Hendrick Motorsports in '87 when he was dying of AIDS than Junior has in his five full seasons for HMS (2 wins). Game, set, and match, Tim Richmond had more talent than Junior. "If cjs's list are reflecting something other than raw talent, I guess I can't complain, can I?" I believe that's exactly what cjs is doing. If we were to judge drivers just based on natural talent, then Kyle Busch and Tony Stewart would be in the top ten despite their history of choking and underachieving in spite of their immense talents. Also, Davey Allison once said that Hut Stricklin was more talented than he was. Now of course, that could have just been Davey being extremely humble and giving credit to his friend who happened to drive a few races for his Busch team in the early '90s, as well as a guy who Robert Yates wanted to have team up with Davey if he had the money to run two cars in the early '90s. But the very idea that Davey Allison said that a driver (who was talented and came close to winning a few times) who never won a Cup race was more talented than he was might throw a dagger in trying to rank the all-time most talented drivers. "but I'm far more impressed by what Kyle and Denny are doing on the short tracks than what they're not doing on the generic equipment-dominated "big money" races." Fair point, and one that supports my earlier claim that they are among the most talented drivers in the sport. That being said, given the fact that there are far more "big money" tracks on the schedule than there are "driver's tracks" (I had Kyle and Denny ranked as being the best in the sport on each of the three Cup short tracks in an earlier post), if they want to win a championship or be regarded by fans as being among the greatest of all-time, they have to start winning the "big money" races now before it's too late, and so far they have failed to do so for the most part. 1246. 18fan posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Burton actually posted his best results (besides points finish and laps led) in 1999. He had 6 wins, 18 top 5s and 23 top 10s compared to 4 wins 15 top 5s and 22 top 20s in 2000. However, he was far from dominant in either year. A case could be made that Burton was the best Roush driver in 1999 and he was definitely the best Roush driver in 2000 and 2001, but in the era and equipment he was in, he should've won more, even just based on the races where he faded at the end after leading most of the race. 1247. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, you are slowly catching up to cjs as being the poster who corrects my errors the most on this board. So I should say that Kyle and Denny have combined for TWO majors in NASCAR (three if you count Kyle's '08 Talladega spring race win). "You know what held Davey's career back? DYING IN 1993!!!!" Sorry cjs, but I think this trumps Junior's fiery cash at Sonoma in '04. I think Junior began to regress when his equipment wasn't as good from '05-'07, although there's no excuse for why he was outperformed by Martin Truex, Jr. in '07 considering how much more talented Junior is. And from the second half of '08 through '10, HOLY SHIT! That may have been the most pathetic stretch in top equipment in NASCAR history. For him to have two seasons that made Casey Mears and Brian Vickers look great, including one season when he finished 25th in points while his teammates finished 1-2-3 (and the driver finishing 2nd being a 50-year old man who hadn't raced a full schedule in for two years and just happened to share a shop with him) is no excuse. I don't car how talented he is or what he accomplished from '00-'06, that 2 1/2 year stretch was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen from a one-time championship-caliber driver in the prime of his career, and I think that alone should disqualify him from your list. Hell, I would already rank Brad higher than Junior despite having much less experience. 1248. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I rank Burton lower than Labonte not just because of the championship difference, but because of their performances in their most successful era, which would be the '97-'01 period. Bobby won a championship in an era dominated by Fords, and it happened to be the same year that Burton was the best of the Ford drivers. And in Burton's most successful season of '99, Labonte beat him in the points and got beat out by another Ford driver, Dale Jarrett, for the championship. Plus when you look at what they have done this past season when neither of them are competitive, Labonte outperformed Burton in far worse equipment, especially on the short tracks, which have generally been a weakness for Bobby throughout his career due to his lack of aggression. I like both of them, Bobby more so than Burton, but Bobby would be doing a better job in that RCR #31 than Burton did the past two seasons based on what he has done for JTG Daugherty "Racing". So cjs, I'm anxious to see who you have ranked 21-30. Since you ranked Jeff Burton 34th, I must say I'll be disappointed if Bobby Labonte isn't in your 21-30 bracket. 1249. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.07.2012 - 5:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, someone who should definitely make the cut of a top 50 list is James Hylton. When he got his last top 5 in 1977, he had the third most top 5s in NASCAR history in just 12 years... that's impressive. Also, Rex White needs more credit... He was probably the greatest short track driver ever. If he had stuck around and been able to run short tracks (since he didn't like superspeedways), he'd probably have more wins than Ned Jarrett because he'd have won all the races Ned won. Personally, I think Dale Jr needs to be removed and replace with Jim Paschal (or Marvin Panch, depending on whom you excluded). 1250. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.07.2012 - 6:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just for note, we are past the number of comments on last year's Homestead, and we are still 2 months from the season starting. 1251. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 7:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another funny play happened tonight when Raiders wide receiver Denarius Moore made a diving catch and started to run the wrong way once he got up. He was "saved" from making a complete ass of himself when a Broncos player tackled him, although it would have been in that player's best interest to let Moore keep going the wrong way. Here's a video: http://notbillwalton.lockerdome.com/media/103327835 1252. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 7:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an old ESPN feature on Mike Curtis' career. It includes footage of him laying out a fan during a game against the Dolphins in 1971, which starts at 2:28 in the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8AwfReVeyU 1253. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.07.2012 - 7:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr is the Dave Shula of NASCAR as both men could never get out of the shadow of their famous fathers. 1254. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 11:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, that's why I prefaced my comments on Dale, Jr.'s career by saying "it's been a while", because I know it's been a long time since he's been a consistent force among the front runners. And while I also realize that his team was starting to go south in 2005 or 2006, I blame some of that on the effects of that fire at Sonoma. And as for Dale, Jr.'s malaise in 2007 while Martin Truex, Jr. scored his only win and made the Chase that season, I think the reason for that was obvious. DEI no longer cared about Dale, Jr. and had him run experimental stuff. That's why he had so many blown engines that season. And that horrible run he had from late 2008-'10 was simply a case of Hendrick not putting the resources into helping Dale, Jr. succeed. Remember that Hendrick's top goals at the end of '08 were to get Jimmie Johnson the title and to get Jeff Gordon back n victory lane. His goals in '09 were to get Gordon back in victory lane and get his flagship #5 team back up front, and in 2010, the 5/88 shop was a total mess that couldn't be saved, as it was, hence the changes for 2011 and beyond. And as for Davey Allison's career being held back by his death, that's ridiculous. That ended his career, obviously, but I still wonder if the effects from his crash at Pocono in 1992 was holding him back late in '92 and through the first half of '93, because for the first time in his career, he was a non-factor on speedways. And as for how I worked out my list, and this is especially true where the top 25-30 are concerned, I evaluated as much as I could when I made my original list four years ago, and all the inactive drivers are listed in the same order, in relation to each other. Talent is one of the most unimportant things I took into account when I crafted my list, but I focus on results, longevity, and how the drivers do under pressure, among other things. In other words, I took as much into account as I could. 1255. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the record, I originally posted those two links from posts 1251 and 1252 last night when we were talking about football, but they just showed up earlier today. cjs, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the positioning of Davey and Junior because you did mention earlier that some of the drivers could be ranked one way or the other, and I believe that Davey should be higher. That being said, while it's true that Junior was probably the #4 focus at HMS in '09, that's no excuse for his 25th place points finish that season. I agree that the focus on the other three drivers may have been too much for him to do much that season, but to finish 25th in the points in HMS equipment with the best sponsorship package in the sport? Unacceptable. And then for him to gain only four points positions the following season when Rick Hendrick had the #5/88 shop work much closely in '10, in some ways that may be even more unacceptable because of how much he underachieved with Rick being 100% in his corner. I realize that he achieved a lot from '00-'06, but for him to finish worse in the points than Brian Vickers and Casey Mears during their respective tenures at HMS, as well his "taking my ball and going home" kind of attitude, I think should disqualify him from this list. Yes his fiery crash at Sonoma in '04 may have taken some of the fire out of him (pardon the pun), but if that's the case, why has he been consistently running in the top ten the past two seasons? The fire inside him isn't completely gone after seeing his performance the past two seasons, especially the most recent season, so where was it in '09 and '10? That is why I wouldn't put him on the list, just for those two seasons. It's not because he wasn't running well in great equipment, it's because he was slacking off and was out to lunch on Sundays on a regular basis. If he didn't care enough to show up on Sundays, then if I was making a top 40 drivers list, I would repay the favor and not care to include him on that list. 1256. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But as I mentioned Paul, the 5/88 shop was a total mess in 2010. Sure, Dale, Jr.'s 2010 season wasn't very good, but neither was Mark Martin's, and Martin was even worse the following year in the same shop, with the same crew chief Dale, Jr. had in 2010, so maybe there was more than just Dale, Jr. to blame for that. Also remember that, after the change from the wing to the spolier in 2010, that Hendrick Motorsports, as an organization, fell well behind. Even the #48 team fell behind, which was really telling. And when asked about how his team was faring, Hendrick said that his team was being lapped by the competition, so after the first 10-14 races, Hendrick Motorsports itself fell well behind teams like Gibbs, Childress, Roush, and even Penske and Ganassi, so I wouldn't judge Dale, Jr. on his 2010 performance, because the entire organization fell well behind its ompetition, especailly after the aero changes that were made about 8 races into that season. 1257. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But cjs, how is that an excuse for Junior's 21st place points finish in 2010? I realize that HMS was struggling soon after the switch from the wing to the spoiler, but all four HMS cars were in the Chase at one point in the season soon after the switch to the spoiler. And while two of his teammates made the Chase and his engine shop teammate was always just outside the Chase in 13th-15th place, Junior dropped from 11th to 19th in the points in a span of seven races leading up to the Chase before losing another two spots in the season finale. I realize that Lance McGrew isn't that good as a crew chief, but Junior was mostly out to lunch throughout the course of the season. He had the same lead lap finishes as Mark, yet had half as many top fives and dropped like a rock in the points in the final seven races leading up to the Chase while Mark maintained his 13th-15th place position. Plus, Junior finished every race and completed 99.4% of the total laps, so he can't use the DNF excuse that Gordon might have been able to use had he missed this year's Chase. He led 185 laps over 7 different races on three different types of tracks (superspeedway, speedway, short track) and led only 4 laps with the wing, which was more laps led than Mark led all season, so he had the speed throughout the course of the season, he just couldn't finish the race where he was running. Now I know that the crew chief will take a lot of the blame for not making the proper adjustments throughout the course of the race, but he can't make any adjustments if the driver doesn't give him good information, which Junior is well-known for doing. How many times have we heard Junior over the radio say things like "It's friggin' loose!", and then not go into detail as to why the car is loose. This makes it incredibly difficult for the team to make proper adjustments, and while I agree that McGrew isn't that good, he had nothing to work with and looked even worse because of his lousy results with allegedly the most popular driver in the sport. Remember at Martinsville that fall, Junior was outside the top 15 for more than 35% of the race (according to the loop data stats) when McGrew decided to keep him out during pit stops under caution, and Junior went on to lead 90 laps (almost half of his season total) and finished in 7th place. So he had the talent to run well that season at some of the more difficult tracks, but he only ran well on tracks where he had track position. He had track position at Martinsville when McGrew had him stay out and he had track position at the restrictor plate tracks where he always runs well. And since he isn't good at making adjustments throughout the course of the race, if the car isn't good at the start of the race or isn't good enough to maintain track position, then he finishes poorly. He only finished well that season when he had track position because he isn't capable of making the car better as the race progresses. Because of that, I consider his 2010 season a massive underachievement because he had the speed and resources to run well that season, but decided not to show it for most of the season. In a way, he was a lot like Julius Peppers when he played for the Panthers: A few really good races that reminded you of his immense talent, mixed in with a lot of races where he just didn't show up. I don't rank players or drivers based on what I see in a few short bursts, I rank them for what they do over a period of time. Too much of Junior's career fits the description of the first category, and so that's why I wouldn't rank him at all. 1258. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is a few days old, but apparently after the Snowball Derby, Steve Wallace hurled a hammer at Kyle Busch's pit crew after being involved in a wreck that Kyle initiated with T.J. Reaid. Then afterwards, Steve said "He got driving a little aggressive and he kind of tore up a lot of cars down here and I got maybe a little mad at him. That's all I really want to say." When Steve Wallace is criticizing your driving and saying that you wreck a lot of cars, it's time to stop racing in that series. 1259. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Paul, McGrew was the crew chief for Dale, Jr. when he had his worst seasons in 2009 and 2010, and then a year later was the crew chief when Mark Martin had the worst season of his career. And I have said for years that Dale, Jr. was a terrible fit for Hendrick Motorsports because of the very things you mentioned about him lacking the technical expertise that the other Hendrick drivers have always had, even guys like Terry Labonte and Wally Dallenbach, Jr. Dallenbach was more savvy in the technical department than Dale, Jr. has ever been, but just lacked the talent to use that to his advantage on all tracks but Pocono and the road courses, and on rare instances, the plate tracks. And Dale, Jr. also lacked motivation, which is why Steve Letarte is such a great fit for him, even though he doesn't know a lot about cars, either. 1260. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just fail to see ANY criteria or rankable statistic where June succeeds Davey. When you look at the whole picture of their careers (which is how I rank drivers) I especially don't see it. The only one single area I see is June's 4 Talladega wins to Davey's 3. First off, that is just one track and it is just one win more. And secondly, you have to remember, two of June's wins at Dega came in the October races that Davey never got to race in. Davey had to race when they had one Dega race the first week of May and the second was the last week of July in the suffocating heat and humidity of Alabama's Summers. Has Junior ever won a really hot 500 mile race? That is an era specific advantage he had, which again speaks to the larger picture that has to be considered when ranking a driver's career. That is the thing about Davey. Although I am probably the biggest advocator of "Davey would have won at least 3 championships, possibly 4, maybe even 5 had he lived considering how dominant Yates was up through '01 and how the competition thinned out from '96 onwards", you don't even have to play the "woulda coulda" game with him. 19 wins in 6 ans 1/2 seasons despite an awful Pocono crash right as he was hitting his stride as a driver, wins on short tracks (4 wins on 3 of the 4 short tracks of his day), wins on one milers (Dover, Rockingham), 2 points paying wins at Charlotte, 1 of only 2 mile and a half tracks of the say along with consecutive All Star race wins (STILL the only driver to do that, and the first was the last day race for that event on a surprisingly cold day, and the second was the first night race that was truly one hot night), 3 wins on the 2 miler at Michigan, one win in an unrestricted SuperSpeeday race (the 1987 Winston 500, snapping Earnhardt's 4 race winning streak), 4 plate wins (one Daytona 500, one Firecracker 400, two Winston 500s), and yes, a road course win at Sears Point (The Rooster totally deserved that penalty). Did I mention he made less than 200 starts? Davey Allison, even with his shortened career, is one of the 25 best drivers ever. Period. 1261. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.07.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I have said for years that Dale, Jr. was a terrible fit for Hendrick Motorsports because of the very things you mentioned about him lacking the technical expertise that the other Hendrick drivers have always had" And you have him ranked ahead of Davey? Also, it was Junior who made a big public stink while leaving DEI, even though his contract was up at the end of the season anyways, and made a big deal about going to HMS, so he has nobody to blame but himself. "When Steve Wallace is criticizing your driving and saying that you wreck a lot of cars, it's time to stop racing in that series. " Ain't that the truth! "How many times have we heard Junior over the radio say things like "It's friggin' loose!", and then not go into detail as to why the car is loose. This makes it incredibly difficult for the team to make proper adjustments" Bingo. Btw, thanks for that link to the Mike Curtis video. Bad. Ass. 1262. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, Dale, Jr.'s won at Talladega five times, not four. The four was referencing his four consecutive victories there. And I agree that if Davey had a full career, that he would have been in the discusion to be among the 5-10 greatest of all-time, if what happened at Pocono in 1992 wold not have had a lsting impact on him. But again, you can't judge on what might have been. I know I don't judge on what might have been. That's why drivers such as Ernie Irvan and Tim Richmond didn't make my list, nor do drivers such as LeeRoy Yarbrough, Pete Hamilton, Charlie Glotzbach, Billy Wade, etc. make my list. It's on a driver's overall body of work, and Davey's overall body of work puts him where I put him, as does that of Dale, Jr. And also remember this. When I listed my top 33 four years ago, Dale, Jr., Davey, Neil Bonnett, and Matt Kenseth, who shows up later, did not make my top 33 list then, but were on the list of seven auxilary drivers I listed, which brought the total up to 40. But aside from Kenseth, no other active driver who might have been below Dale, Jr. historically (and he was at that time), has surpassed him historically. There are a number of others that are getting close, but none has surpsassed him yet. Had Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards (who's not far from my top 40, but isn't up there, as of now), the Busch brothers, and one or two others done enough, Dale, Jr. and Davey would not have made it, nor would Neil Bonnett have made the list. 1263. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle Busch is sort of like the Peyton Manning of NASCAR: Great in the regular season, worthless in the postseason." ok that's a pretty lousy comparison, considering Peyton's not only made it to the Super Bowl but he's won one. To make this a football analogy, you could credit being within a mathematical chance of winning the championship in the final race of the season as a Super Bowl appearance, whether you're leading or you're behind. But you can more than just 2 drivers with a Super Bowl appearance by that standard, like in 2004 when there were 4-5. And if a driver clinches the championship with 1 race to go, then it's a Super Bowl with only one participant. A conference championship loser would be like the last couple of drivers to be mathematically eliminated from the championship with 1 race to go. It'd be a bit harder to judge pre-Chase if you've got one or two who pretty much lap the field for the season. So in 2012, Clint Bowyer and Kasey Kahne lost in the conference championships, while Keselowski beat Johnson in the Super Bowl. Keselowski and Johnson get credited with SB appearances, Bowyer and Kahne conference championship appearances. You could barely give Kyle a conference championship appearance in his best points finish in 2007. He was the 2nd-last driver to be mathematically eliminated from the championship heading into the final race but was nearly out of it with 2 races to go. As for Denny Hamlin, he gets two Super Bowl appearances. One as a rookie in 2006, then a Super Bowl choke job in 2010 on par with the 18-1 Patriots. 1264. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You're welcome, DSFF. It's too bad that Mike Curtis may never get the credit he deserves for what a true force he was at the linebacker position. He didn't even make the list of semifinalists for next year's Pro Football Hall of Fame, which probably tells you how little the voters remember him. "ok that's a pretty lousy comparison, considering Peyton's not only made it to the Super Bowl but he's won one." You do know I wasn't making an exact comparison between Peyton and Kyle, right? They have similarities in that they are both among the best in the sport when the pressure isn't on, but when it comes down to winning the big games, they often fall flat on their face. Now in recent years, Peyton has improved, winning a Super Bowl in '06 and competing in another in '09, so he there really isn't an exact comparison between the two. But aside from those two years, I'd say that both of their careers are quite similar to one another. 1265. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, a major reason that Mike Curtis will never get into the Hall of Fame is directly tied to that incident against the Dolphins when he clocked a drunk fan. Add that to the fact that he had a surly reputation, so much that his own teammates were afraid of him, and he'll sadly never get into the Hall of Fame, but he's another one of those that should have been in long ago. Of course, there are numerous other players, including but not limited to, Jim Marshall, Jerry Kramer, Drew Pearson, Otis Taylor, Cliff Branch, Dave Dalby, Ray Guy, Ken Stabler, L.C. Greenwood, Bob Kuechenberg, and Curtis that should have been in the Hall of Fame long ago that still aren't in. But Curtis has that infamous incident when he clocked a fan hovering over any candidacy of his. 1266. Talon64 posted: 12.07.2012 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, but I can't see where there's any comparison. Those two seasons count for a hell of a lot as far as Peyton being a winner, even if it's not as much of a winner as you think he should be, while Kyle hasn't even really been a contender. If there's any driver who is the most like Petyon Manning... that's a tough one since Peyton has near-GOAT regular season numbers but just the 1 championship. Maybe Jeff Gordon, just in the sense of a championship-caliber person who hasn't won as many championships as you thought they could've given not just their talent but their near-GOAT-worthy numbers. There's a time where you thought Gordon was never going to stop winning it all, but he did. But Peyton and the Broncos could have as good a chance as anyone of the top AFC teams to make it to the Super Bowl, as long as they can get past Baltimore next week. The weak division hasn't done them any favors as far as people's faith in their chances. 1267. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) You're probably right, cjs. A lot of players won't ever get in because of factors other than their on-field play. Several voters have said that they won't vote for Ken Stabler because of his personal lifestyle. Ricky Watters will never get in because of his "For who? For what?" comments following his first game with the Eagles in '95. Cris Carter rubbed a lot of people the wrong way early on in his career, and I think a lot of people still hold that against him. Jerry Kramer may be the biggest surprise on that list because he was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team, and is the only player on that team not in the Hall of Fame. Also, I think Cliff Branch, L.C. Greenwood, and Bob Kuechenberg are being left out because they had so many teammates that went on to be Hall of Famers. And of course, despite being arguably the greatest punter in NFL history, Ray Guy has been shunned because of this macho idea that kickers aren't football players. Instead of being voted into the Hall of Fame based on their abilities as a player/coach/contributor, there's a lot of people that may never get in just because they played a certain position or they rubbed certain people the wrong way. I think the NFL is making a move to allow football fans to vote in the voting process, but I'm afraid there will always be bias on the part of the voters that keeps deserving people out of the Hall of Fame. 1268. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Actually Paul, Kuechenberg doesn't have that many teammates from those great Dolphin teams of the early 70s in the Hall of Fame. In fact, there is only one defensive player from those teams in the Hall. A big reason why a number of those Dolphins get shunned is because the Dolphins did not capture the nation like the Raiders, Steelers, and Cowboys did, nor were they on top nearly as long as those other teams were. Those Dolphins did not excite the masses. All they did was to win by executing the fundamentals like no other team has since. They won in a boring fashion, much like the Spurs have over the last dozen years in the NBA. In fact, their defensive personnel was so maligned, that it got the name "No-Name Defense". Those Dolphins champions in 1972-'73 may have been the most business-like champions in modern pro sports history. They weren't flashy, but they got the job done, and in the 1972 and '73 seasons, their record was 32-2, counting the post-season, yet not mentioned as much as they should be when it comes to the greatest teams in NFL history because there weren't any major personalities on them. 1269. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.07.2012 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, You could even add Donnie Shall, and Andy Russell on the list of 1970's Steelers not in do to amount of Steelers from that decade. The reason Jerry Kramer isn't in the Pro Football Hall of Fame does to three things. In the past, Hall of Fame Voters said they didn't voter for Kramer because the amount of Green Bay Packers from the Lombardi era that are already in the Hall of Fame. What I gathered in the past, Some voters also had a problem Kramer having his own books such as Instant replay. Instant Replay back in the late 1960's was a grounding book in terms having an Actually NFL player revealing the behind the scenes of the NFL. The third is guards don't have stats and this is according the NFL Network's top players not in the Hall of Fame. The reason of amount of Lombardi Era Packers in the Pro football Hall of Fame as a reason why Kramer isn't in should be called bs despite what the NFL Network said in the past in their top 10 series. The Senior committee picked Dave Robinson over Kramer. If Dave Robinson gets in this year, there is outside factors with Kramer. Dave Robinson was a major player of why the Packers won 3 straight championship games, but he isn't the best Packer from the Lombardi era not in yet. The other issue is as Good as Dave Robinson was, there actually Linebackers with more pro bowels and allpro accolades that aren't in the Hall of Fame such as Randy Gradishar. 1270. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.07.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, Why Cliff Branch isn't Hall of Fame is deeper than the amount of Raiders. There is a combination of factors for Branch. Harold Jackson, Drew Pearson and Harold Carmichael aren't also in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in terms of 1970's Wide Receivers. 1970's Wide Receivers did take a long time to get into the Hall of Fame in some cases like Lynn Swann and John Stallworth. The problem with 1970's Wide Receivers is the fact they played in an era that wasn't pass friendly before 1978 and also there was only 14 games a season before 1978. 1978 was the year the Mel Blount Rule was created and opened up the passing game. Voters like to vote based on stats on some NFL positions. The way the passing game is now also makes it tough for NFL Players that played in the 1980's and 1990's. While the 1980's and 1990's are better than 1970's for passing, Wide Receivers are even having better single season stats and the same thing is true with Quarterbacks. A good example for the Wide Receivers is Calvin Johnson has a shot to break Jerry Rice's receiving yards in a season. The example is the amount of times Quarterbacks throw over 5,000 yards a season in the 2000's and the amount of times Quarterback throw over 40 touchdown passes a season. Another reason Cliff Branch isn't in the Hall of Fame is the fact Wide Receivers do have a hard time to get into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Art Monk took a long time to get in. Andre Reed, Cris Carter and Time Brown isn't in either. The reason Jerry Rice got into the Pro Football Hall of Fame on his first ballot is because he is considered the Wide Receiver ever in the NFL and his stats are far ahead of the 2nd player in Receiving, Receiving Yards, and Receptions. 1271. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I agree, Packerfan4ver. The fact that he was a guard shouldn't be the deciding factor as to why he isn't in the Hall of Fame, as one person on that Top Ten show alluded to. There are two guards currently on the list of semifinalists for the Hall of Fame, Larry Allen and Will Shields. While I'm not disputing their great talents and think they are both deserving of one day being in the Hall of Fame, I don't think it's fair that they made it this far in the voting when they have only been eligible for two or fewer years (this is Allen's first year of eligibility) while Jerry Kramer is being pushed aside. Both Allen and Shields should be in the Hall of Fame, but I don't like the idea that they are on the ballot and Kramer isn't. I still think Kramer was as great a player as Forrest Gregg, who played offensive tackle on those great Packer teams. Without them pulling around to the left side, the famed "Packer Sweep" play isn't as effective because both Kramer and Gregg had great speed and were terrific run blockers. I don't have a list of the greatest offensive tackles of all-time, but Gregg would definitely be up near the top of the list. And I think that his legacy was strengthened because he played alongside one of the greatest guards of all-time in Jerry Kramer. Both of them complimented each other perfectly, and I think that both of them have earned the right to be in the Hall of Fame. Gregg is already in the Hall of Fame, having been enshrined in 1977, and Kramer should be in there as well. And speaking of Gregg, correct if I'm wrong, but I think he has won more championships than anybody else in pro football. He won five championships with the Packers, including the first two Super Bowls, won a Super Bowl in his final season with the Cowboys in '71, and then won the AFC Championship in '81 as a coach for the Bengals. Certainly one of the greatest football players of all-time. 1272. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.07.2012 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Speaking of football games anyone here ever heard of the Freezer bowl A game played between the Cincinnati Bengals and San Diego Chargers in Minus 10 degree weather with the wind chill at minus 60 degrees. 1273. Ryan posted: 12.07.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Eat your heart out Kyle Busch, Greg Biffle, Carl Edwards, Dale Jr., Kevin Harvick, Clint Bowyer, Jeff Burton, Mark Martin, Denny Hamlin, Ryan Newman... Brad Keselowski is your NEEEEWWWW World Champion! 1274. Paul posted: 12.07.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) In fact Benjamin, Forrest Gregg was the coach of the Bengals when they beat the Chargers in the Freezer Bowl. A lot of those Bengals players credit Gregg for helping them win that game, since Gregg had played in the Ice Bowl 14 years earlier, another very cold football game. Plus, Gregg was one of the toughest players of all-time, having played in 188 consecutive games in his career, which at the time was an NFL record. Along with having a "tough as nails" coach to help them mentally prepare for the frigid temperatures, the Bengals also benefited from having a quarterback named Ken Anderson, the reigning league MVP who happened to have extremely large hands for a player his size, which helped him hold onto the ball and throw a tight spiral in that weather, a feat that Dan Fouts struggled to do throughout the game. Of course, the Bengals were also the better team going into that game. The Chargers were a much flashier team as a result of Don Coryell's "Air Coryell" offense, led by quarterback Dan Fouts and receivers Charlie Joiner and Kellen Winslow, but their biggest weakness was their defense, which was very prevalent in the 1981 AFC Championship Game. Earlier that same season, the Bengals beat the Chargers in San Diego 40-17, largely because of their strong defense to match the Chargers strong offense, and the great mismatch that their offense had against the Chargers defense. Add in the cold weather that took away the Chargers' greatest asset, their offense, and the Bengals had the clear advantage going into the '81 AFC Championship Game, which they successfully delivered on. 1275. cjs3872 posted: 12.07.2012 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Paul, the Bengals were certainly the better team, but I'll always believe that gane should never have been played on that day because of the dangerous, and even deadly conditions that game was played under. And the one thing we'll never know is how that game might have gone had it been played under better weather conditions, because the Chargers had the momentum coming off that incredible game the week before in exactly the opposite weather conditions in Miami, while the Bengals had a sub-par performance in barely beating Buffalo. But saying that, the Bengals were the better team. Ironically, when those same two teams met in San Diego a year later on a Monday Night, the Chargers put up 50 on the Bengals a week after putting up 41 in San Francisco. But those Chargers, and especially Dan Fouts, proved they just could not handle the pressure moments. Fouts choked in the 1979 playoff debacle against Houston and nearly lost to Buffalo in 1980 before again choking against the Raiders. His only real good playoff game came against Pittsburgh in the 1982 playoffs before going back into his choking mode against the Dolphins a week later. Even the "Epic in Miami" was nearly thrown away by Fouts before he led their comeback. 1276. 18fan posted: 12.07.2012 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interestingly the Chargers had just come off of winning the Epic in Miami the previous week in hot and humid conditions against the Dolphins the week before the Freezer Bowl. 1277. 18fan posted: 12.07.2012 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, cjs beat me to it about the conditions of the Epic in Miami the week before the Freezer Bowl. 1278. BON GORDON posted: 12.08.2012 - 2:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My updated list of NASCAR Sprint Cup's 50 Greatest Drivers. Tell me what ya'll think: #1. Richard Petty #2. David Pearson #3. Dale Earnhardt #4. Jeff Gordon #5. Jimmie Johnson #6. Cale Yarborough #7. Bobby Allison #8. Darell Waltrip #9. Herb Thomas #10. Lee Petty #11. Ned Jarrett #12. Tony Stewart #13. Tim Flock #14. Buck Baker #15. Rusty Wallace #16. Mark Martin #17. Joe Weatherly #18. Rex White #19. Bobby Isaac #20. Bill Elliott #21. Junior Johnson #22. Benny Parsons #23. Terry Labonte #24. Glen "Fireball" Roberts #25. Dale Jarrett #26. Fred Lorenzen #27. Jack Smith #28. Matt Kenseth #29. Ricky Rudd #30. Fonty Flock #31. Marvin Panch #32. Jim Paschal #33. Alfred "Speedy" Thompson #34. Kurt Busch #35. Bobby Labonte #36. Kyle Busch #37. Buddy Baker #38. Harry Gant #39. Carl Edwards #40. Davey Allison #41. Kevin Harvick #42. Denny Hamlin #43. Neil Bonnett #44. Geoffrey Bodine #45. Dale Jr. #46. Jeff Burton #47. Greg Biffle #48. Dick Hutcherson #49. Curtis Turner #50. Ernie Irvan 1279. Paul posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Six changes I would definitely make to that list, Bon Gordon. 1. I would swap Earnhardt and Pearson's positions at the top. 2. I would put Bobby Allison in the top five, either in 4th or 5th place, and I would just bump Cale, Jimmie, and maybe Jeff down one position each. 3. Tony Stewart should not be ahead of Tim Flock, and maybe not even in the top 15. 4. Fireball Roberts should be in the top 20 for sure, maybe even the top 15 despite never running a full schedule. 5. Like our arguments earlier about why Davey Allison should be ahead of Junior, there's an even bigger argument to be made for why he should be ahead of Carl Edwards. 6. Curtis Turner shouldn't be that far down on the list, and that far below Harvick and Hamlin. Aside from those six changes, I can't really complain about the list as most everybody is at least in the right region of your top 50 list. Nicely done. 1280. BON GORDON posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt and Pearson are so close in my eyes the only reason I had Pearson ahead Is because of how few starts he had and that he only raced like 4 full time seasons and earned 3 titles. However I have no prblem switching out the two. Earnhardt is still a seven time champion and to many is the best ever. Bobby Allison is a tough one. He only earned one title but was soooo good. He has the second most Top fives and Top Tens. He drove for so many different teams and it was hard to beat Petty back in the 70s. Cale is ahead of him because he earned 3 straight titles and roughly had 160 less starts than Bobby Allison. He also had a better winning percentage than Allison and lead 4,000 more laps than Allsion. He won one more Daytona 500 than Allison as well. I have Johnson ahead because I'm expecting him to win more titles and more races and will likely pass my hero Gordon in a couple years on my list as well...ugh. Jeff Gordon I feel is better than Bobby Allison has a lot more titles, a few more wins, and has the same amount of Daytona 500 wins in less starts. Tony Stewart is a great driver but the weakest 3 time champion. Tim Flock never raced long enough and a good portion of his stats and career can be rounded up in 1955 when he earned 18 wins, 33 Top tens, He led 3,495 of the 6,937 total laps he led in his his career, and one of his two championships. Tony has longevity 47 wins, 2 Brickyards, and 3 championships in only 500 starts. Tony definately in my eyes is a Top 15 driver and is better than Tim Flock. However, Flock was a hell of a racer and I'm glad to see he will be inducted in the hall of fame next year. I can move Fireball up for sure. 33 wins in 206 starts is great. I think I looked at the fact that he never won a championship but like you said never really ran a full-time schedule. I agree that Davey Allsion should be in front of Carl Edwards for now but I'm telling you that in the future I see a couple of titles out of Mr. Edwards and plenty more wins. He will be a Top 25 driver someday. In my eyes Curtis Turner is another hard one and is lower because he didn't race a lot of races and doesn't have the wins some of the others did, BUT he didn't race a lot. It's hard because I have to look at stats and see what he did accomplish not what he coulda, shoulda, woulda. I'll look into Cuurtis more when I tweak my list for the millionth time. Thanks for the feedback Paul. I see your points and agree with some of them and I will certainly make some changes to my list. 1281. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2012 - 5:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jack Smith? Speedy Thompson? Fonty Flock? I don't have any of them in my top 50, and you have them all in the top 33, BON GORDON. And I have Fireball much higher than where you put him, though I won't divulge exactly where yet. And you know that DSFF's going to go berserk if he sees Speedy on any greatest driver list, even if he did win a Southern 500 (in 1957). And Junior Johnson 21st? Who are you kidding? Not me, that's for sure. And you also greatly underrate Buddy Baker. And I don't see Carl Edwards ever winning a championship for the same reason he's never won a big race, and that is that he's one of those drivers that has proven he can't stand the heat of a pressure situation. That being said, if he doesn't crack my top 40 in the next 2-3 years, it will be surprising since Jimmy Fennig is now his crew chief. 1282. Paul posted: 12.08.2012 - 5:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And you know that DSFF's going to go berserk if he sees Speedy [Thompson] on any greatest driver list" I was going to list that as one of the changes I would make to BG's list in my previous post, but I wanted DSFF to get the first shot at it. I can't wait to see his reaction. 1283. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.08.2012 - 7:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) The Freezer bowl was played on the same day as The Famous NFC Championship Game (AKA The Catch) Between The San Fransisco 49ers and Dallas Cowboys. 1284. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.08.2012 - 8:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, if Speedy Thompson makes cjs' list I will flip out to the point The Ultimate Warrior will seem eleqeunt by comparison. And if under Buck Baker's name in his bullet points of achievments the phrase "1956 champion" is listed, I might go to an orphanage and punch somebody. And when he lists Gordon ahead of Earnhardt historically (cause you know he will) the servers that run this site might melt. 1285. David posted: 12.08.2012 - 9:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yes, if Speedy Thompson makes cjs' list I will flip out to the point The Ultimate Warrior will seem eloquent by comparison. And if under Buck Baker's name in his bullet points of achievments the phrase "1956 champion" is listed, I might go to an orphanage and punch somebody." Well, cjs did state that Speedy Thompson didn't even make the top 50, so we are safe for the moment. 1286. David posted: 12.08.2012 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I highly suggest that you write that Buck Baker scored the most points in 1956 to avert DSFF's wrath on our poor orphans. 1287. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2012 - 10:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if you read post #1281, you would know that I don't rank him anywhere in my top 50, much less my top 30 (remember I revealed 31-40), but not for the reason you bring up. Actually, you handled that better that I thought you would. But when Buck Baker is listed, both of his championship years will be listed, as they should be. 1288. BON GORDON posted: 12.08.2012 - 12:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whats wrong?! Tell me why Speedy shouldnt be on my list? He seems good to me. Buck Baker and Junior Johnson are in the right spots to me. And no DSFF Earnhardt is second on my list now and Gordon is 4th. I moved some ppl around on my list last night. Still tweaking it a bit. 1289. David posted: 12.08.2012 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, BON GORDON, Speedy Thompson was a good driver in his own right, but to DSFF and others of us, he should be penalized historically for his part in the 1956 championship debacle (that's putting it mildly). 1290. jabber1990 posted: 12.08.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) of course NASCAR drivers aren't athletes, they dont kill their girlfriends, and they usually try to avoid doing something that will result in breaking the law (notice I said usually) and also they vote Republican, 1291. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2012 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, even though he's not great historically, Speedy Thompson did accomplish something drivers such as Lee Petty and Tim Flock never, who were contemporaries of his never did, and that was to win the Southern 500, doing so in 1957 with Bud Moore as his chief mechanic. Ironically, three years later in 1960, Moore won it again with Buck Baker. And although he was not a historically great driver, any driver that can win the Southern 500, as Thompson did in 1957 (and was the first to average over 100 MPH in doing so), can't be all bad. Just look at the long list of great drivers never to win that race, and if you win that race, you've done something that numerous legends of the sport never did. 1292. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just look at the long list of great drivers never to win that race, and if you win that race, you've done something that numerous legends of the sport never did." You've made an argument for Michael Waltrip and Eddie Cheever with that. Would you care to rethink that? Granted, I rate all Southern 500 wins higher than restrictor-plate era Daytona 500 wins or split-era Indy 500 wins (at least before 2002 when most of the big teams returned), but still... It's the overall performance in a career that matters, not performance in big races. It's even worse in sports car racing, where some pretty weak drivers can piggyback off stronger teammates and be carried to victory (the worst in recent years was Andy Wallace winning a bunch of races for Milka Duno), but Mark Dismore and Casey Mears are on the overall 24 Hours of Daytona win list solely because they had stronger teammates. Winning a race like that is a nice way to elevate your legend when you have greatness somewhere else (Foyt, Al Unser, Unser, Jr., B. Rahal, Montoya, Franchitti, Dixon, Wheldon, Luyendyk to some degree) but it's pretty meaningless to me when it's a generally career-mediocre driver, and that's how I feel about ALL marquee races honestly (and why I continue to scoff at Michael Waltrip regardless of how he managed to win marquee races because his cars carried him. Paul, I never meant that I would solely rank according to raw talent (and even according to raw talent alone, I don't think Tony Stewart and Kyle Busch are top ten all time). Actual results have to matter to some degree, but if it's a matter of deciding between mediocre superstars (Jarrett, B. Labonte, J. Burton, Junior, Newman, etc...) or mega-talented drivers who had interrupted careers (Irvan, Bonnett, Davey, Kulwicki) I am ALWAYS going to go for the latter. And Davey was just being nice about Hut Stricklin (whom I thought was underrated and one of the better non-winners, but still by and large a mediocrity) much like Ayrton Senna was about his nephew Bruno ("he's even better than I was!", yeah right) or RPM2Night was when they were saying that Sarah Fisher was going to be the next Tony Stewart in the IRL (I actually like her more than Stewart, but no). Fine, I'll do a top 40 but I know people are going to hate it because I don't respect championships in weak eras enough and I probably overrate non-champions as an overreaction to people whom in my opinion massively overrate weak champions. Cup drivers only. I DO factor stats in, but I factor in raw talent more than most would (I know almost nobody is going to agree with me on my low placement of Jarrett or Buddy Baker (whom I view as the exact same - 7th or 8th place drivers in their prime who were great on superspeedways but elevated by driving for premier teams when honestly several other drivers were better for those teams...it was a tossup but I gave it to Jarrett since I do think he was better on short tracks.) 1. David Pearson 2. Dale Earnhardt 3. Richard Petty 4. Cale Yarborough 5. Bobby Allison 6. Jeff Gordon 7. Darrell Waltrip 8. Jimmie Johnson 9. Tim Flock 10. Fireball Roberts 11. Junior Johnson 12. Lee Petty 13. Herb Thomas 14. Ned Jarrett 15. Rusty Wallace 16. Tony Stewart 17. Buck Baker 18. Fred Lorenzen 19. Joe Weatherly 20. Bobby Isaac 21. Bill Elliott 22. Harry Gant 23. Rex White 24. Tim Richmond 25. Mark Martin 26. Alan Kulwicki 27. Fonty Flock 28. Benny Parsons 29. Ernie Irvan 30. Davey Allison 31. Geoff Bodine 32. Ricky Rudd 33. Neil Bonnett 34. Denny Hamlin 35. Kyle Busch 36. Dale Jarrett 37. Buddy Baker 38. Matt Kenseth 39. Dick Hutcherson 40. Marvin Panch 1293. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski? If he gets about 8-10 more wins, I'd list him. I'd already rank him over Bobby Labonte. And hmm... I included Kyle and left off Kurt. That was probably a mistake but I really don't know whom I'd cut since I do think Kyle has more TALENT... Kurt just had more luck in one ten-race period, and that's about it. 1294. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speedy Thompson almost killed champion to be Herb Thomas in 1956 (he had to spend a few months in ICU with a fractured skull among other injuries) in one of a few extra races added to the '56 schedule at the end so the worst human being ever to grace NASCAR, Carl K, could get one of his drivers, Buck Baker, could pass Herb in the standings. To insure this, he had one of his other drivers, Speedy Thompson,, intentionally wreck Herb which he did by turning him head on into the wall. You guys know me, I am the biggest advocator of "you can't change history" especially in response to Brian France's champions who didn't get the most overall season points (for the record, how do you people feel about the 2001 Seattle Mariners?). But due to the extreme circumstances behind that deal, in my mind, I have gone back and changed the official historical record of that season. I refuse to acknowledge Buck's '56 title, have Speedy completely wiped from history, and have Herb as a 3 time champion ('51, '53, and '56) which along with his 3 Southern 500s, the only other big deal of his day, I have Herb in my Top 10 rankings. 1295. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think part of the reason I left Kurt off is simply that Brad has outperformed him in the #2 car (and did so head-to-head when they were teammates), and Brad's 2012 definitely impressed me more than Kurt's 2004, and Kurt hasn't even led the series in wins (which Brad did this year). Since I didn't think Brad was ready to be listed, I left Kurt off. But I'll acknowledge that few would probably rank Kyle > Brad > Kurt at this moment. 1296. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah shit. I left Curtis Turner off. THAT one is inexcusable. Place him at #23 and move everyone else one slot down. I also left off LeeRoy Yarbrough, but looking at my list as it stands, I don't think I am going to list him. I respect Herb Thomas and think the 1956 deal was a robbery. The reason I have him ranked lowly is that I essentially view him as the Jimmie Johnson of his day. EXTREMELY consistent driver, more boring than most of his peers (Tim Flock, Lee Petty, Curtis Turner, Joe Weatherly, Junior Johnson, Fireball Roberts, etc... ALL had more engaging personalities), and was elevated by his crew chief Smokey Yunick. Yunick is the only crew chief who is probably more famous than his driver, and for good reason, given that Yunick's cheating is even more notorious than Knaus's (although I guess he played in "gray areas" more since there were many more gray areas that could be exploited back then). I give Yunick much of the credit for Thomas's success, and thereby rate him lower than I might otherwise. But I certainly rated him over Buck Baker. 1297. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That came off wrong. Yunick is more famous than Thomas because he was the best crew chief EVER at exploiting gray areas (and has a legitimate claim for best crew chief ever probably). Herb Thomas does not really have a claim as best driver ever. Hence why Yunick's more famous. Not that he should be... 1298. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Speedy Thompson or Jack Smith. If you're going to be THAT big of a douchebag, you need to have mindboggling stats. It's easy enough to leave both of them off even without considering their personalities. Yeah, I listed Kyle and he's had nasty moments for this era, but is not even close to being in Thompson's or Smith's league. Kyle has far more redeeming moments (donating money to Sam Ard for instance). Kyle's like a mini-Tony Stewart. He could be capable of anything good or bad and you never know what to expect from one day to the next. 1299. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I was referring to Speedy Thompson winning the Southern 500 and many of the legends, such as Lee Petty, Tim Flock, Fred Lorenzen, Benny Parsons, Rusty Wallace, and today's version, Tony Stewart never winning that race. And to compare winning at Darlington and comparing that to drivers that never won there to drivers winning at Daytona or Indy to drivers that never won there is just plain lunacy, because Darlington is much tougher than Daytona or Indy ever will be, and the layout at Darlington from 1953-'68 is much tougher than the layout is now. So much so that Cale Yarborough considers his win at the 1968 Southern 500 his greatest achievement among his race wins, which include four Daytona 500 wins and four other Southern 500 wins. And DSFF, I know we've gone over that whole situation regarding Carl Kiekhafer, and the drivers involved in that incident in 1956, but someone else that should have taken much of the blame for that was NASCAR founder Bill France, Sr., who added a race he should never have added, considering it was near the end of the season when he added it. That was probably, along with the banning of the hemi engines in 1965, the biggest blunder Bill France, Sr. ever made, where NASCAR was concerned. And that incident, along with one at Martinsville a year later which killed about four spectators, caused the factories to officially pull out, although GM never really did pull out, and by 1963, the factories were fully involved again. And Sean, Smokey Yunick was such a master mechanic that, not only was he the mechanic for the fastest car for each of the first five Daytona 500s, winning in 1961 and '62, and nearly winning with Bobby Johns in 1960, but he also was an innovator in IndyCar racing, and the winning chief mechanic for the 1960 Indianapolis 500 with Jim Rathmann. Yunick also brought the side car to Indy, which mercifully failed to qualiy in 1964 with Johns, and who brought a Chevrolet engine to Indy in the early and mid 70s for Jerry Karl to drive, with Karl finishing 13th in 1975. Yunick was also a major threat in the 1969 Indianapolis 500 with Joe Leonard, running as high as second at one point before Leonard's car ran into mechanical problems and finished sixth, seven laps behind the winner. 1300. Sean posted: 12.08.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Darlington is a better talent indicator than Indy and Daytona, although Indy is usually also a good talent indicator. I was just making another jab about marquee race wins because I thought you were hyping marquee race wins in general as you tend to do quite often. Yes, I'm aware that Yunick had many accomplishments without Herb Thomas, and Thomas had few without Yunick. That's why I didn't put Thomas in my top ten. 1301. cjs3872 posted: 12.08.2012 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I usually do put a greater significance on marquee wins, Sean, but in the case of Speedy Thompson's accomplishment of winning the Southern 500 and comparing that to the legends in his era that failed to win that race, I was referring to that particular race. 1302. Paul posted: 12.08.2012 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kyle has far more redeeming moments (donating money to Sam Ard for instance). Kyle's like a mini-Tony Stewart. He could be capable of anything good or bad and you never know what to expect from one day to the next." I do agree with this. Kyle also won his first Truck race at Charlotte in 2006 in a truck painted to resemble the Rowdy Burns car from Days of Thunder as a tribute to Bobby Hamilton, who was in the midst of battling cancer (and sadly lost his life not long after), because Hamilton served as a stunt driver for that movie. Plus Kyle is frequently donating his late model winnings to various charities and help funds. As much as I don't care for his or Stewart's personalities, they both have good hearts when it comes to helping out others in need. And speaking of Bobby Hamilton, one of the classiest moves I have ever seen came following the Busch race at Nashville in 2007, the first Nashville race since Tennessee native Bobby Hamilton lost his life following his battle with cancer. After Carl Edwards won the race, he gave his trophy to Bobby Hamilton, Jr. Now Carl has done some bad things in his racing career as well, just like Kyle and Tony, but that was nothing but classy for him to do that for a driver still in mourning. 1303. Paul posted: 12.08.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was announced yesterday, but Mike Wallace will return full-time to the No. 01 car in the Nationwide Series for JD Motorsports. The team also plans on racing the No. 4 car full-time as well, possibly with a similar driver line-up that they had in 2012 with Danny Efland, Daryl Harr, Brad Teague, and others. 1304. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.08.2012 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First RR page ever to 1300 comments... I say Speedy's reputation is tarnished because he was basically the fall guy for Buck at Kiekhaefer. 1305. David posted: 12.09.2012 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) These are the top ten most improved drivers from 2011 to 2012, per PEER: 1. Brian Vickers, +3.097 2. Dale Earnhardt, Jr., +1.743 3. Denny Hamlin, +1.597 4. Brad Keselowski, +1.556 5. Greg Biffle, 1.389 6. Jimmie Johnson, +1.069 7. Mark Martin, +1.021 8. Clint Bowyer, +0.695 9. Ryan Newman, +0.611 10. Joey Logano, +0.458 And on the other end of the scale, the ten drivers whose production diminished the most: 10. Jeff Gordon, -0.472 9. David Reutimann, -0.621 8. Tony Stewart, -0.667 7. Kevin Harvick, -0.722 6. Kurt Busch, -0.788 5. AJ Allmendinger, -0.806 4. David Ragan, -0.958 3. Juan Pablo Montoya, -1.028 2. Regan Smith, -1.296 1. Carl Edwards, -1.861 1306. Baker posted: 12.09.2012 - 7:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I respect your knowledge of NASCAR History, but when it comes to ranking the drivers I don't know that you are very qualified. I say this because reading your many post on here its clear to me you cannot rank them objectively. You always have some half cocked idea why one driver is overrated or some conspiricy theory about some driver getting the shaft by some owner. Its easy to see you had your favorites and you look for ways to rank them higher and you had drivers you didn't like as much and you dream up ideas that they weren't really as good. 1307. David posted: 12.09.2012 - 9:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker, do you have a list of the greatest drivers ever? If so, I would like to see it. This is not necessarily criticism, it is just that I would like to see how you would rank the drivers. 1308. Baker posted: 12.09.2012 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I started watching NASCAR in 1987 so I cannot really give a qualified all time great list. Since I have been watching the most dominante guys have obviously been Earnhardt, Gordon, Wallace, Johnson and Stewart. There have been some guys I watched that have had more natural driving talent than some of those guys buy have never put it together such as Tim Richmond, Ernie Irvan, Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards and Denny Hamlin. My only problem with cjs and his comments ranking drivers is that he doesn't seem to stay objective. I am not more qualified than cjs to rank all the drivers in the history of the sport but I can at least stay objective. For example my all time favorite driver in any racing is Tony Stewart. I wouldn't rank him over a lot of drivers even though he is my favorite and I feel he is far more talented than alot. I won't rank him all that high because he has never kept his head on straight long enough to put it together and realy dominant the sport. One driver before my time I feel does not get near as much credit as he deserves is Herb Thomas. I never got to watch him race but everything I have read about him or watched on him the guy was dominant. The guy could win on any track or surface against anyone at anytime. I feel like he should be right up there with Lee Petty, Ned Jarrett, and even the 80+ winners, Wallace and Johnson. Gotta remember that guy was driving big ass boat cars with no power steering on slick and dangerous dirt tracks. Johnson, Wallace, Gordon and others had the luxuray of power steering and advance handling cars on much safer track surfaces. 1309. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.09.2012 - 10:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my top 50 of all time in order; note that I put a lot into a drivers character, something many guys didn't/don't have; I also weigh a lot on raw talent: David Pearson Richard Petty Dale Earnhardt Cale Yarborough Bobby Allison Ned Jarrett Dick Hutcherson Junior Johnson Darrell Waltrip Dick Rathmann Fireball Roberts Fred Lorenzen Bobby Isaac Jeff Gordon Jim Paschal Joe Weatherly Rex White Buddy Baker Tony Stewart Herb Thomas Buck Baker Tim Flock Jimmie Johnson Mark Martin Bill Elliott Terry Labonte Ricky Rudd Dale Jarrett Bobby Labonte Marvin Panch Donnie Allison Davey Allison Harry Gant Fonty Flock Matt Kenseth Greg Biffle Geoffrey Bodine Ernie Irvan A. J. Foyt James Hylton Tim Richmond LeeRoy Yarbrough Kurt Busch Kyle Busch Neil Bonnett Bob Welborn Cotton Owens Paul Goldsmith Ryan Newman Curtis Turner 1310. cjs3872 posted: 12.09.2012 - 12:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker, I am objective when it comes to watching any sport, as I do not have favorites in any sport I watch. That goes for racing, as well. As for my "consporacy theries" about drivers geting the shaft by a certain car owner, that kind of thing has been goig on for decades. In fact, that was one of the things mentioned in the controversial finish of the 1947 Indianapolis 500, when car owner Lou Moore, with his cars 1-2 and far ahead of anyone else, gave both of them the infamous "EZY" pit board. Bill Holland, who was leading, slowed down, while Mauri Rose chose to ignore it, and passed Holland with eight laps remaining to take the win, which ignited a controversy, and one of the conspiracy theories going along was that, if Holland had won instead of Rose, that Moore would have kept more of the prize money, probably due to the contracts that were signed, although that was never proven to be true. So conspiracy theories have been going on involving multi-car teams since before NASCAR was even born. And I have also said that once you get to 25th-30th, you could list any number of drivers in any position, and not truly be wrong about any of them. And also, while the cars back prior to 1982 had no power steering, they also wouldn't last if you ran them hard, which is why a great number of drivers running today would not be successful back then, but because you had to baby the cars back then, a number of the more successful drivers back then would not be as successful today. They were also a lot slower back then (except for Daytona and Talladega) than they are today, and with the speeds that are run today, power steering is essential, oterwise, you never be able to keep the cars off the wall. Also, the cars prior to the mid 80s did not have aerodynamics built into them, but the '83 T-Bird changed that, and by the mid 90s, aero-push became a factor, when it hadn't prior to that. And Baker, don't prejudge my list until I fully reveal it, as I've only revealed a part of it. And your point is exactly why I'm putting career statistics and accomplishments with the drivers listed, to give a reason why I list the drivers were I do. To me, it's not enough just to list the drivers, but I also feel the need to give statistical information as to why I list them where I do. 1311. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Starting tomorrow, I will give my list of Top 25 drivers, and along with each, an explanation as to why I ranked them there. 1312. Sean posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here is my top 50 of all time in order; note that I put a lot into a drivers character, something many guys didn't/don't have; I also weigh a lot on raw talent:" - NicoRosbergFan Well, your list surprises me quite a bit especially after your post months ago where you said that because the cars are so much easier to drive now every driver who started in 1997 or later was worse than Steve Grissom. I didn't expect to find even Johnson and Stewart on your list, much less Jarrett, B. Labonte, the Busch brothers, Biffle, and Kenseth. Donnie > Davey > Gant. Hmm, that particularly surprises me since Davey (although even I think he's overrated) was much more dominant at his peak than Donnie ever was, and Gant was pretty much just as dominant as Davey in '91-'92 (in a LOT weaker cars and usually dominating on the short tracks while Davey was better on the superspeedways), although I do appreciate you giving '50s/'60s drivers their due more than anyone else seems to. I should have given Dick Rathmann and probably Jim Paschal more consideration. Thank you for no Speedy Thompson and Jack Smith though. Did you mean to leave Lee Petty or Rusty Wallace off (saying they lacked character or something)? I know you're a Gordon fan now so I could understand why you'd say Rusty lacks character... I was actually surprised how low you listed Gordon and Martin (although I don't rate Martin as highly as I did) because you've implied several times that they were the only "real" talents left. I did not expect you to put Stewart or Johnson over Martin. 1313. cjs3872 posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, and we'll see how our lists vary, DSFF, because I know that there might not be any positions, except maybe first (Richard Petty), that we agree on. Saying that, you're always welcome, as is any other poster, to comment on my post of drivers 31-40, and I'll be releasing drivers 21-30 this coming week, and that will spark debate, given the drivers I have there I can almost promise. 1314. Sean posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan: No Benny Parsons either? He had lots of class, won a title with weak equipment, and definitely won on a more interesting variety of tracks than Buddy Baker did (one driver I think you greatly overrate). 1315. Sean posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops... I left Terry Labonte off MY list. This was not intentional. With Curtis Turner at #23, place Terry Labonte at #32, keep Dick Hutcherson at #40, and bump Matt Kenseth off the list. So my 23-40 is: 23. Curtis Turner 24. Rex White 25. Tim Richmond 26. Mark Martin 27. Alan Kulwicki 28. Fonty Flock 29. Benny Parsons 30. Ernie Irvan 31. Davey Allison 32. Terry Labonte 33. Geoff Bodine 34. Ricky Rudd 35. Neil Bonnett 36. Denny Hamlin 37. Kyle Busch 38. Dale Jarrett 39. Buddy Baker 40. Dick Hutcherson 1316. Bronco posted: 12.09.2012 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here is my top 50 of all time in order; note that I put a lot into a drivers character, something many guys didn't/don't have; I also weigh a lot on raw talent:" I have no idea how you ranked Jeff Gordon outside the top 10, Jimmie Johnson outside the top 20, omitted Rusty Wallace and Lee Petty completely, and included Newman on the list ahead of far more accomplished Cup drivers (Hamlin, Harvick, Earnhardt Jr, Biffle, Edwards, Burton). 1317. Paul posted: 12.09.2012 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, DSFF once said that he had Earnhardt ranked #1 and The King at #2, unless he changes his mind, both of your lists may be entirely different. Plus he also said in a "fit of rage" that he wouldn't put Gordon or Johnson in his top 10 because of what he perceived as Gordon trying to hand Johnson the title by not passing him on the track during the Chase. Unless he changed his mind, we might see a similar repeat of Nico's list if DSFF leaves both Gordon and Johnson out of his top 10. 1318. David posted: 12.09.2012 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Someone said earlier that Davey Allison was just being nice when he said that Hut Stricklin was better than he was. This is not necessarily true. When Davey and Hut started racing against each other, Hut won all the time. 1319. Paul posted: 12.09.2012 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was Sean who said that Davey was just being nice to Hut. And maybe the reason why Hut was mediocre is because he drove for the likes of Bobby Allison, post-1980 Rod Osterlund, Kenny Bernstein in his final season in Cup, and Junie Donlavey. He came close to winning at Darlington '96 driving for the post-Bobby Allison Stavola Brothers, and finished 6th at Michigan driving for Junie Donlavey in 2001 (I think he even served as his own crew chief for that race too), beating out powerhouse Fords like Mark Martin, Jeff Burton, and Dale Jarrett on the most prominent horsepower track on the circuit. Sean, you even said it yourself that Davey was always in competitive equipment, so compared to a guy like Hut who was never in top-of-the-line equipment (except for a few Busch races for Robert Yates), Davey does look like the better driver. Now I'm not saying that Hut should be on anyone's "Top 50 Greatest Drivers" list and Davey shouldn't be, because I rank drivers more so on accomplishments, while using skill as a tiebreaker. Davey certainly had the better career, but I wouldn't call Hut mediocre because while his equipment was mediocre, I think his results were anything but mediocre. 1320. Paul posted: 12.09.2012 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker, if anyone has earned the right to call themselves objective on this board, it would be cjs because he's one of the few people on here who has never stated which drivers (or any sports teams, for that matter) he likes or dislikes. I'm not trying to join the "cjs fan club" or anything like that because I realize this is the second time I've come to his defense in the last few days, but I believe that you are dead wrong by calling him out on his objectivity like that. 1321. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.09.2012 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I knew I should have paid more attention... I wanted those guys... I also was sifting through it all off the top of my head writing on the fly... revisions to follow :P 1322. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.09.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Revised: David Pearson Richard Petty Dale Earnhardt Lee Petty Cale Yarborough Bobby Allison Ned Jarrett Dick Hutcherson Junior Johnson Darrell Waltrip Dick Rathmann Fireball Roberts Fred Lorenzen Bobby Isaac Jeff Gordon Rusty Wallace Jim Paschal Joe Weatherly Rex White Buddy Baker Tony Stewart Herb Thomas Benny Parsons Buck Baker Tim Flock Jimmie Johnson Mark Martin Bill Elliott Terry Labonte Ricky Rudd Dale Jarrett Bobby Labonte Marvin Panch Donnie Allison Davey Allison Harry Gant Fonty Flock Matt Kenseth Greg Biffle Geoffrey Bodine Ernie Irvan A. J. Foyt James Hylton Kevin Harvick Tim Richmond LeeRoy Yarbrough Kurt Busch Kyle Busch Neil Bonnett Ryan Newman To note, I am not listing talent. I am listing greatness and character more. I will put out a list based on talent later... today or tonight. I put Newman on yet not Hamlin or Edwards because Newman is a closer. 1323. BON GORDON posted: 12.09.2012 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright I tweaked my list and after a few days here's my OFFICAL 50 Greatest NASCAR drivers: #1. Richard Petty- You can't be nicknamed the King and not be Number 1. 200 wins, 7 Daytona 500s, 7 championships, 712 Top Tens. Led 51,381 laps. Simply the Best. #2. David Pearson- Never really raced full time very much. Has 3 titles and 105 wins and 366 Top Tens in only 574 starts. Has led 25,267 laps. If he raced full time he'd have a lot more of Richard Petty's wins and championships. #3. Dale Earnhardt- 7 time champion, 76 wins, 428 Top Tens, led 25,684 laps. The fact he has 29 less wins than David in far fewer starts and the fact David never raced full time enough to win more championships is why Earnhardt is behind Pearson in my list. #4. Jeff Gordon- 4 time champion, 87 wins, 414 Top Tens, 23,147 laps led. Won 3 Daytona 500s, 4 straight Southern 500s, and a record 9 roadcourse wins. Should be a fixture near the Top in any greatest driver list. #5. Jimmie Johnson- Love him or hate him this guy is so good. 5 straight tiltles, 60 wins, 248 top Tens in only 399 starts. Has won the Daytona 500 and 4 Brickyard 400 wins. He will be Top Three by the time he's retired for sure. #6. Cale Yarborough- Won three straight titles from 1976 through 1978. Won 84 races and earned 319 Top Tens in only 560 starts. Won 4 Daytona 500s and led 31,560 laps (second most all-time). #7. Bobby Allison- Only won one championship but was consistent till the very end. Won 85 races and earned 446 Top Tens in 718 starts. Also won 3 Daytona 500s, 6 road course wins and 4 southern 500 wins. Led 27,548 laps. #8. Darrell Waltrip- JAWS won 84 races and three championships. Earned 390 Top Tens in 809 starts if Waltrip had retired after say 1992 he'd be a little higher on my list. Won seven straight races at Britol and the 1989 Daytona 500. #9. Herb Thomas- This is won of the most underrated drivers ever. Won 2 championships and 48 races in only 228 races which is the best winning percentage of anyone on this list. He also won three Southern 500s. #10. Lee Petty- The father of the King was the orignal King of NASCAR. Three NASCAR championships. Lee has 54 race wins and was extremely consistent earning 332 Top tens in 427 race starts. #11. Ned Jarrett #12. Tony Stewart #13. Tim Flock #14. Buck Baker #15. Rusty Wallace #16. Mark Martin #17. Joe Weatherly #18. Rex White #19. Bobby Isaac #20. Junior Johnson #21. Bill Elliott #22. Glen "Fireball" Roberts #23. Benny Parsons #24. Terry Labonte #25. Fred Lorenzen #26. Dale Jarrett #27. Matt Kenseth #28. Ricky Rudd #29. Marvin Panch #30. Jim Paschal #31. Jack Smith #32. Kurt Busch #33. Bobby Labonte #34. Kyle Busch #35. Buddy Baker #36. Alfred "Speedy" Thompson #37. Davey Allison #38. Harry Gant #39. Carl Edwards #40. Fonty Flock #41. Kevin Harvick #42. Denny Hamlin #43. Neil Bonnett #44. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. #45. Geoffrey Bodine #46. Jeff Burton #47. Dick Hutherson #48. Greg Biffle #49. Curtis Turner #50. Dick Rathman I don't have a special device that I can measure driving talent, ability, character, or raw talent. i dont care if Kyle Busch or Speedy Thompson are pieces of crap and not very nice. In the end it's all a matter of opinion. I look at RAW STATS and even then it's hard to rank every drvier from every era all together. Not everyones' list will be the same. If everyone thought and felt the same on everything like 50 greatest driver lists than the world would be a very boring place. We could use more of that in Washington though. 1324. 18fan posted: 12.09.2012 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman wins on fuel mileage and is the master of lucking in to wins. He is a great qualifier, but he is for the most part an average driver. 1325. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.09.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, who inhabited the bodies of the Panthers today? Cjs, our #1 differs. And for the record, Jimmie is in my top 10. Jeff is #11. Full explanations are coming. 1326. Paul posted: 12.09.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been pretty vocal about my displeasure in the Cowboys over the past few years, but I am so glad that they won today over the Bengals. Just like the Chiefs last week, they had to deal with tragedy one day before their game, and the players and coaches came together as a team and found a way to win under such circumstances. Jason Garrett is such a classy guy. In his press conference, he really put Jerry Brown, the Cowboys player who was tragically killed the other day after being the passenger in a car accident, over as a nice young man who was well-liked by everybody and who loved the game of football. Even though Brown was on the team's practice squad, the way that Garrett talked about him made him sound very special, and that he was very instrumental in the team's success from his hard work during practice. My thoughts and prayers go out to the friends and family of Jerry Brown, as it sounds like a great young man was lost. 1327. Baker posted: 12.09.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I for one find it obvious in reading cjs stuff the last few years he simply does not like Davey Allison and always has some lame reason to lesson what he accomplished. He doesn't have to come out and say who he likes and does not like as it bleeds through everything he types. 1328. cjs3872 posted: 12.09.2012 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or the Chargers, Eagles, and Vikings (or the teams they beat) today, DSFF. And I wasn't sure whether you had Richard #1 or someone else in that spot. In that case, almost our entire lists will be different. And BON GORDON, you have both Junior Johnson and Fireball Roberts far, far too low, and Jack Smith and Speedy Thompson in your top 36? Sure Smith might have been remember in a much greater light had Lady Luck been a fan of his, but they had almost the same identical careers, and I don't really think either was that special. And 18fan, you'll notice that I don't have Ryan Newman on my list, and probably wouldn't have made it if I had extended it to 50, cause he's an even bigger underachiever than Dale Earnhardt, Jr. has been throughout their careers. The same is true of Greg Biffle and Carl Edwards, but I rate Biffle higher, based mostly off of consecutive wins in the Southern 500 in 2005-'06. And incidentally, Tony Stewart will probably go down as the first driver ever to win at least three chamnpionships that never won at least two of them in consecutive years. Every other driver to win at east three titles won consecutive titles at least once. 1329. BON GORDON posted: 12.09.2012 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior Johnson was really good and a hard charger but in my eyes is a little bit overrated. He's got 50 wins in 314 starts which is really good but just because his equipment broke and he never raced full time doesn't mean Im just gonna put him eigth or tenth. The drivers ahead of him are just better in my eyes. I know ppl wont agree with that at all but that's the beauty of debating and differing opinions. Same thing goes for Fireball 33 wins in 206 starts is really good, he was a superstar in NASCAR but to me it's all about stats. He got really good ones but not Top Twenty good. To me the are ranked fine where they are at. Smith had 21 wins, 95 Top fives, and 142 Top Tens in 264 starts. He won at Bristol and Daytona and finished as high as 4th in the standings. He's a forgotten pioneer of the sport and should be ranked amoung the Top 50. I understand everyone has a personal hatred for Speedy Thompson but I could care less what the man did. Yes it was wrong but I am gonna put him in my list (#36). He has 20 wins in 198 starts and also earned 78 Top fives and 19 poles. He won the 1957 Southern 500 and finished 3rd in points 4 straight years. He is another amoung the Top 50. 1330. BON GORDON posted: 12.09.2012 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Among. I'm a terrible speller 1331. JG24FanForever posted: 12.09.2012 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 25 greatest Cup series drivers(my best objective view) 1. Richard Petty(only better than Dale because he owns All records.) 2. Dale Earnhardt(7 championships and a Modern record .630 Top 10%) 3. Jeff Gordon(better 5 year winning% than Jimmie's best single season win%) 4. David Pearson 5. Bobby Allison 6. Darrell Waltrip(47 short-track wins compared to Dale's 27) 7. Cale Yarborough 8. Jimmie Johnson 9. Junior Johnson 10. Curtis Turner(sorry,but Glen Wood said this was the best driver he ever saw) 11. Herb Thomas 12. Tim Flock 13. Tony Stewart 14. Rusty Wallace 15. Mark Martin(11 Top 4 points finishes,270 Top 5's) 16. Fireball Roberts 17. Lee Petty 18. Ned Jarrett 19. Fred Lorenzen 20. Joe Weatherly 21. Buck Baker 22. Bill Elliott 23. Benny Parsons 24. Matt Kenseth(Underrated) 25. Davey Allison 1332. Paul posted: 12.09.2012 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad I'm not the only one who holds Curtis Turner in such high regard. His stats in the Convertible Series are simply mind-boggling, and he won 17 Grand National races despite never running half the schedule in any given season. He didn't earn the nickname "The Babe Ruth of Stock Cars" for nothing, and if Glen Wood (who was quite the driver himself back in the day) says that Turner was the best driver he ever saw, I'll take his word for it. Had he, Fireball Roberts, and Fred Lorenzen run the full schedule, or entered the sport in a different era when the championship started to mean more than individual races, all three of them would have won championships and possibly taken some accomplishments away from Petty and Pearson in the process. 1333. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, the Vikings winning today shouldn't surprise anyone since they are 6-1 at home this season, including 2-0 at home against divisional opponents. Plus with Brian Urlacher out, the middle of the field was open for Adrian Peterson, which he took advantage of by rushing for 154 yards on 31 carries with 2 touchdowns. They also played this game very smart by not having Christian Ponder play a pivotal part in the game. Ponder is not a very accurate deep field passer, and so the best thing for the Vikings to do is put the game on the shoulders of its running game and improving defense, because Ponder isn't capable of putting the team on his back and leading them to victory, so they often win when they play to his strengths. That's exactly what the Jets should do if they want to win games like they did in '09 and '10. Mark Sanchez is a lot like Christian Ponder in that while he can throw the ball very well, he isn't capable of throwing the ball too many times in a game or put his team on his back and lead them to victory. If the Jets didn't put the game in Sanchez's hands so often this season, they would probably be in contention for a wild card playoff berth, but instead they are in position to miss the playoffs for the second year in a row because they always find ways to lose games. The Vikings on the other hand don't allow Ponder to control too much of the game, and as a result still have a shot at making the playoffs as a wild card team should the Seahawks (not likely) or Bears stumble in these last 3 games. They don't find ways to lose games because they were simply outmatched in each of their 6 losses this season. But there have been some games this season where they should have lost, such as today against Da Bears, 49ers, and sweeping the Lions, that they ended up winning because they didn't make mistakes that cost them those games (which each of those other 3 teams have done several times this season). With a great running game, an improving young defense, and a really good special teams unit, there's a lot to be happy about for Vikings fans going forward. If they can win two of their final three games (which will be difficult as the Texans and Packers are still on their schedule), I'll consider their season a success as I had no expectations for them going into the season, and now they have a shot at making the playoffs and/or having a winning record. I know the league MVP will probably either be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning because they're really the only players that matter to the media, but I still believe that Adrian Peterson deserves to be league MVP and/or Comeback Player of the Year. If Peyton or Brady were hurt this season, their teams would still be winning their divisions. If A.D. (All Day) was hurt, the Vikings would probably have 4-5 fewer wins and would be in position for yet another top five draft pick in next year's draft. I'll admit to having some bias on this subject, but I firmly believe that when it comes to which player has been the most VALUABLE to his team this season, without a doubt Adrian Peterson is the guy who deserves that award more than anyone. And you ant to talk about Comeback Player of the Year? Peyton Manning missed a full season due to having neck surgery, not because he had an injured neck, and it was because the nerves in his neck hadn't healed in time that he didn't play in 2011. On the other hand, Adrian Peterson tore his ACL and MCL last year in week 16, so he only missed one game due to injury. Not only that, but he is having a career year, has led the Vikings to a potential playoff berth, is just 400 yards away from 2,000 rushing yards, and only 505 yards away from Eric Dickerson's record. The award will probably go to one of the "All-time greats", but I firmly believe that A.D. is more deserving of both awards than either of them. 1334. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just out of curiosity, did anyone else get any snow today? We got about 2-3 inches where I am in southeastern Minnesota, and up at my mom's place she got about 8-12 inches. It's times like these that I think of the Cale Yarborough quote: "All Yankees, secretly, deep inside their hearts, want to be Rebels." Any Rebels want to trade places for a little while? 1335. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 1:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Curtis may have well been a good Convertible driver (and he was) but that's not Sprint Cup. Curtis Turner may be the best to Glen Wood but the stats just aren't there for me to rank him among the twenty or so best and I'm not gonna do coulda, shoulda, woulda when I rank my drivers. If I included convertable series drivers/stats Bob Welborn would be very high on my list. He won three straight convertible series titles (1956-1958), had 19 wins in 111 starts, 69 Top fives, and 18 poles. 1336. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul, I live in Pittsburgh and we've gotten 50 degree cloudy weather with over 2 inches of rain since Friday. It's been pretty crappy around here but I'll take that over snow any day. It's coming though but I can wait. 1337. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.10.2012 - 8:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) It's in the 70s and 80s here in central Florida! And to go with my greatest, here is my list by pure talent (regardless of character or greatness); I have a tiered list: Tier 1: Dick Hutcherson Richard Petty David Pearson Cale Yarborough Herb Thomas Lee Petty Ned Jarrett Junior Johnson Tony Stewart Bobby Allison Tim Flock Fonty Flock Marshall Teague Buddy Baker Benny Parsons Joe Weatherly Jim Paschal Marvin Panch Donnie Allison LeeRoy Yarbrough Tier 2: Dick Rathmann Jeff Gordon Kyle Busch Mark Martin Harry Gant James Hylton Darrell Waltrip Dale Earnhardt Rusty Wallace Fireball Roberts Curtis Turner Bobby Isaac A. J. Foyt G. C. Spencer Dick Brooks Buck Baker Jack Smith Speed Thompson Terry Labonte Ricky Rudd John Sears Neil Castles Davey Allison Neil Bonnett Geoffrey Bodine Wendell Scott Tier 3: Jimmie Johnson Denny Hamlin Kurt Busch Brad Keselowski Ryan Newman (I put him here because he is a closer; I'd rather him in a car that can win in a five car battle for a win than the "Tier 4" drivers) Yes, I think these guys are in a class of their own. Tier 4: Sterling Marlin Ken Schrader Morgan Shepherd Kevin Harvick Carl Edwards Matt Kenseth Greg Biffle Clint Bowyer Ernie Irvan Tier 5: The field I may have accidentally skipped some drivers... Let me know of any glaring omissions. 1338. Spen posted: 12.10.2012 - 10:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To the person who asked where I've been these last few weeks, I'm currently shacked up with a crazy girl who doesn't have Internet access (or a TV), so I haven't had much time at all to get online. I didn't even get to watch the last few races. I'd really like to weigh in on this greatest driver discussion, but I've used up my hour at the library by reading the last 600 comments. I would like to say thank you to Paul for being the first person to agree with me about Buescher being a perfect fit for the #24. I've been saying that for well over a year now. 1339. David posted: 12.10.2012 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just out of curiosity, did anyone else get any snow today?" No, we didn't, darn it. My favorite season is winter because of snow. 1340. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ken Schrader will return to Frank Stoddard's #32 Cup car for 10 races in 2013. He's also putting together a truck team and will attempt the truck race at Eldora next year as well. 1341. Bronco posted: 12.10.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NRF, It's unbelievable that you would consider Jeff Gordon a Tier 2 talent, and that you would put Jimmie Johnson in the same Tier as Keselowski, Newman and others. I don't know how you keep ranking Newman so high, he's a Tier 4 driver and nothing more. Not sure how he's a closer either when he has never finished better than 6th in points under any system, be it the Chase or total points in a season. Missing from your list are Jeff Burton, Bobby Labonte, Kasey Kahne and Dale Jr. Matt Kenseth is also more than just a Tier 4 talent. 1342. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.10.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Compared to the above, Jeff is tier 2. To compare anyone to the tier 1 talent is a sin. When Newman has the chance, Newman takes advantage. Martinsville 2012, Phoenix 2010, Daytona 2008, several 2003... Newman's a closer, like it or not. I deliberately omitted Burton, Labonte, Kahne, and Earnhardt Jr. 1343. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This probably wont mean much from me but Gordon and Earnhardt are tier 1 drivers for sure. Are you the guy who puts Gordon 15th all-time best too? 1344. cjs3872 posted: 12.10.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So NicoRosbergFan, Jeff Gordon (winningest modern-era driver), Dale Earnhardt (7-time NASCAR champion), Sr., Jimmie Johnson (5-time consecutive NASCAR champion), and A.J. Foyt (the greatest cross-over driver to NASCAR in history) are not top tier drivers in terms of talent, and guys like Jim Paschal, Marvin Panch, Buddy Baker, and LeeRoy Yarbrough are, and you have those four legends (Gordon, Dale, Sr., Jimmie Johnson, and Foyt) on the same tier as G.C. Spencer, John Sears, Dick Brooks, and Neil Castles, four drivers that combined to win ONE race, which was the bizarre 1973 Talladega 500, the same race in which Bobby Isaac quit while leading because he heard a voice tell him to quit. That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen or heard. And Bronco, I don't have Kasey Kahne in my list, either, because he's proven that he can get it done mostly on the intermediates only, though if he wins at Darlington, Martinsville, Bristol, and a plate race, I might be convinced otherwise, and put him in my top 50, which he's currently not in. 1345. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne has as many top ten finishes at Martinsville since 2006 as Bobby Labonte. Considering the differences in their level of equipment and the fact that Bobby is no longer relevant, that is pretty pathetic if you ask me. NicoRosbergFan, I am officially jealous of your Florida weather. That being said, I can't believe that you would rank Gordon, Earnhardt, and Johnson either alongside or below drivers like Sears, Castles, and Spencer, none of whom have ever won a race. Now I have a lot of respect for them as independent drivers, and even ranked Castles as he 2nd greatest Cup driver to never win a race, but to me that is simply unacceptable. 1346. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Eury, Jr. has been named as David Stremme's crew chief in the #30 Cup car. With this and the hiring of Steve Hmiel as competition director, this team might have the potential to run top 25 on a consistent basis next year. I can see them having similar success as BK Racing did in 2012. 1347. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, cjs, you are making the classic assumption that just because those guys didn't win doesn't mean they weren't some of the most talented drivers who ever lived. They achieved the max success they could with NOTHING. Between those drivers you have the resources pumped into a factory car for just a quarter of a season. Incredible talent there. I stand by it. I knock A. J. only on his lack of starts. You put one of those guys (Sears, Brooks, G. C., etc) in a factory car, and they are just as successful as the guys they raced against. This is talent, not greatness. 1348. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just thought of something regarding the Stremme/Eury, Jr. alliance. It's actually quite possible that Stremme will outrun Danica most of the time in 2013 in much lesser equipment. After being fired from JRM last year (the third time Junior fired/removed him from his team) and being blamed for why Danica's 2012 Nationwide season was such a disaster, I can see him teaming up with David Stremme and them contending for a top 25 points finish, and outrunning Danica on a regular basis. And provided that this new Swan Racing team doesn't start-and-park, I can see them finishing higher than Danica in the points as well. How's that for justice on Tony Eury, Jr.'s behalf? 1349. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my Top 10. I'll post the rest of my Top 25 when I get some time. 1) Dale Earnhardt: Obviously 7 championships and 76 wins would automatically put you in the Top 5 of any best ever list no matter the circumstances under which they were achieved. But I have Dale as #1 because he accomplished these feats under less than ideal circumstances. No, he wasn't driving junk, but he was never driving for a powerhouse. He got his first championship in just his second season of 1980 (still hasn't been done by anybody else) for third year barely sponsored Osterlund Racing. The crew was so inexperienced that his mentor and crew chief, NASCAR legend Jake Elder, left the team at the 1/3 mark of the season. And this was a team that was so far behind the rest of the field in terms of horsepower, it did not go unnoticed. Legendary crew chief David Ifft, Benny Parsons' crew chief at the time assessed the surprising team's success: 'I'll tell you what makes that car run, Dale Earnhardt makes that car run. He's been driving like a wild man to make up for a lack of horsepower all year. Been going into the corners deeper and just throwing it the rest of the way around. Thing is, he's good enough to get away with it.' Wow. Just wow. His next three years were a bit of a waste as Osterlund, who was just doing NASCAR as a hobby, sold the team halfway through '81. He spent the next two years with Bud Moore. Sixty races, TWENTY SIX mechanical failures. He still managed 3 wins over that span and over 2000 laps led. He hooked up with Richard Chilress in '84 who had spent the last two years getting his feet wet as the owner of a big time sponsored team. It took two years to iron the bugs out (not enough speed in'84, nine engine failures in '85). Then, it happened. 1986 through 1995, in my opinion, is the gold standard by which all drivers should aspire to. Have others put up more mind boggling numbers? Yes. With the exception of the 6 championships and two runner ups over those ten seasons should the numbers by themselves just leap right off the page? Not really. But consider the following factors. First off, this was NASCAR's most stacked era. Never have more drivers capable of winning just about any week been on teams capable of winning just about any week. Also, the schedule was only 29 or 30 races meaning the chances to win were reduced to make putting up huge numbers even more difficult. Seven of my Top 25 drivers saw at least part of their prime in this era (Bobby, Darrell, Gordon, Rusty, Bill, Mark, and Davey) and that doesn't include others like Harry, Geoff, Ernie, Tim, Alan, Ricky, Kyle Petty (his '90-'93 was no joke), Terry, and Neil. Toughest era ever, and Dale dominated it with an owner who has looked like a bumbling fool at times ever since his death. And we also have to include the incredible transitions that happened over this period. They went from the bias ply tires that were made for somebody like Dale Earnhardt to throw all over the place, to the much less forgiving radials which were phased completely in by 1991. Also Chevrolet went from one of the greatest race cars ever, the fastback Monte Carlo of the late 80s to the Lumina eraly in 1989 through 1994. That was quite simply not a good race car. It caused Hendrick to suffer some lean seasons (paving the way for the 'Gordon made Hendrick Motorsports' myth). The rules also changed to a more polished look which meant less rough driving, which also played out of Dale's wheelhouse (compare some of the stuff he got away with in the 80s that NASCAR barely batted an eye at to his 'rough driving' penalty in the '93 Coke 600). Through it all, Dale simply adapted on the fly, and kept kicking ass. Not until the 'aero and engineering is now everything' Monte Carlo of 1995 came out did Dale start to look mortal. Even then, in his mid 40s and with a fading RCR (they honestly still haven't caught up), he finished 2nd in '95 making up almost 300 points in the final FOUR races, then despite Hendrick Motorports just killing it with that new car in '96 (it would be the 2nd of 4 straight titles for that organization) there he was still in title contention in the summer when his Talladega crash happened. And even his injury years of '96-'99 when he was anywhere from 45 to 48 years old were not embarrassing. All Top 10 points finishes and still winning. Then came 2000 when a healed 49 year old Dale reminded everyone just who he was. He couldn't manhandle a car like in his prime, but he made up for it with a cerebral approach. Once again he adapted. He finished 2nd in points to a guy who completed all but 9 laps and had two thrilling 'I'm Dale Earnhardt And You're Not' wins. Add it all up, and Dale is the best ever. To get the numbers he got (record tying 7 championships, 76 wins, 25000+ laps led, dominated NASCAR's most stacked era) despite a less than ideal career arc and championships with two owners who are not Top 25 owners in NASCAR history. And this doesn't even dissect his incredible ability to thrive and raise his game when the pressure is the highest, the pressure of a championship fight. 1350. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2) Richard Petty: Definitely The King of NASCAR. I hate the way modern media tries to play down his accomplishments. 200 wins is still 200 wins. Yes he was driving factory backed Chryslers or sponsored by STP for the bulk of his wins, but he was competing against drivers like David Pearson, Bobby Allison, Cale, Junior Johnson, Fireball, Gentleman Ned, Curtis Turner, Joe Weatherly, Bobby Isaac, and Fred Lorenzen among others who were also in factory backed or sponsored cars at one time or another. The fact is, he accomplished EVERYTHING! Short dirt tracks, short paved tracks, one milers, one mile dirt tracks, 1.5-2 milers, DAYTONA DAYTONA DAYTONA, quite a few wins on the road course of Riverside. He did it all, he did it all time after time after time, and did it all with style and class. And let's not forget he won his 7 championships under FIVE different points systems. From his first wins on the hole in the wall dirt tracks in truly stock early 60s behemoths, to his 200th victory on the gleaming Daytona Speedway in a specially built for racing Pontiac Grand Prix with the POTUS looking on, he also adapted incredibly. Yes he had era specific advantages that allowed him to win 200 races. But he took full advantage of them AND WON TWO HUNDRED FREAKING RACES!!! Also, to win the majority of those races, he had to be smart and fast. Making those cars last was tough. So every modern person who plays down The King's accomplishments (see Joey Logano's comments in the video ESPN played when Gordon won race #85) can kiss my ass. Has he done it all while driving for somebody like Bud Moore, he would be #1. 3) David Pearson: Only other person to eclipse 100 wins, and did it in barely 500 races! Ran for the championship only 4 times ('64, '66, '68, and '69) and won 3 of them. Perhaps the most cerebral racer ever. When he showed up to race, he was NASCAR's version of Joe Montana, keeping a cool head under the most trying of circumstances (the last quarter mile of the '76 Daytona 500, spinning and crashing at high speeds in a race he hadn't won yet, he had the presence of mind to mash in the clutch). Has a reputation as the guy who would just hang out until the last 10 or 20 laps then race for all of his wins. This isn't entirely true. He led over 25000 laps in his career and dominated over half of his wins. But he DID pull the stealth bomber attack quite a few times. And nobody did that better. He was, and still is, one cool motherf****r. So why isn't he #1? Those were some damn good cars he was in. Cotton Owens' Dodges of the mid 60s, Holman Moody of the late 60s, and The Wood Brothers of the 70s. Like Richard, he did the job though. And did it damn good. Although I must say I'm a little disappointed he didn't start going for the championship again when NASCAR dropped the schedule to 30 races, even if it meant leaving the Wood Brothers. But that is his perogative. Honestly, I consider Earnhardt, Petty, and Pearson to be the Holy Trinity of NASCAR. 4) Bobby Allison: Talk about a horrible career arc! He couldn't stay anywhere to save his life. Yet he still won EIGHTY FIVE races (see that France family? EIGHTY FIVE WINS!) and the '83 title. That is out of this world. And his diversity is surreal. Drawbacks? Horrendous championship collapses in '81 and '82, as well as losing the '72 title that he could have won. Plus, the teams he was with were really good. Won a lot with Mario Rossi's Dodges when Bobby Isaac was winning the championship in a Dodge. Holman Moody in their heyday before John Holman went Jerry Jones. Junior Johnson. Penske (fast but inconsistent, his NASCAR story all the way until this year). Bud Moore (see Penske). Ranier which had won a lot with Buddy "I Will Not Take It Easy, Taking It Easy Is For P*****s" Baker, DiGard which was a contender with Darrell. 5) Lee Petty: In his era, it seems like you either won a lot of races or won championships. Lee did both better than anyone else. He won 3 titles (In my opinion tied with Herb Thomas, but that is unofficial) and over 50 races which is far and away the best of his era. Comparing him to his contemporaries, only Herb comes close. 1351. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 6) Cale Yarborough: Won tons of big races in the pre modern era in a limited schedule for the Wood Brothers, won three championships (in a row!) and had 3 runner ups in the modern era where the championship was everything despite only running for the title from '73-'80. I would rank him higher if not for "He really should have won that title" runner ups in '73 and '80. 7) Darrell Waltrip: Underrated longevity, would have been even longer had he not gone the owner/driver route while he still had a few "downside of his prime" years left. 84 wins and 3 championships is huge. Even if he cheated for every single one of them (everybody was cheating back then). 8) Junior Johnson: 50 wins in 313 races. He was completely go or blow. The championship meant nothing to him as a driver. Hence his 165 DNFs. But he went for what his era rewarded, and did it damn well. Had the immortal quote: "I'd rather lead one lap and fall out of the race than stroke it and finish in the money". THAT is a competitor. He went for what he wanted and achieved it. 9) Jimmie Johnson: 5 championships (in a row!) and 60 wins in just 11 seasons. He gets the "Hendrick Motorsports Discount", his 5 titles are only half of that organization's championships from only 1995 to present. But he is still Hendrick's greatest find. What he has done over his career, making an instant impact and bringing the sport to its knees and spreading his success pretty evenly over those most recent 9 years says a lot to me. I can not possibly put him behind his teammate, mentor, co-owner, and guy who got him his Lowe's sponsor. 10) Herb Thomas: 230 starts, 7 seasons, yet he still won 48 races, 3 Southern 500s (the big deal of the day) and 3 championships (2 official) and 2 runner ups in a sickeningly shortened career. Not only did he have just 7 seasons, 2 of them were injury shortened. One is his much discussed 1956 seasons, the other was 1955 where he had a bad wreck that landed him in the hospital for about a month. While in the hospital he said he would not only recover in time for the Southern 500, he would win it. He did. Bad. Ass. 1352. David posted: 12.10.2012 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(see Joey Logano's comments in the video ESPN played when Gordon won race #85)" Direct me to the video. I would love to see it. "I hate the way modern media tries to play down his accomplishments." I am glad that you do not try to downplay King Richard's achievements at all. You just think Earnhardt's are better. "1986 through 1995" Wasn't it 1985 through 1995 at one point? 1353. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is '85-'95. I was just discussing that Earnhardt had his peak from '86-'95. First off that is a peak spread over 10 seasons. It wasn't concentrated over 5 or 6 seasons. And secondly it was all during NASCAR's competive peak. But yes, NASCAR's competitive peak was '85-'95. Dale peaked from '86-'95 and dominated. Sorry if that caused confusion. As for the Logano comment, they were playing a really nice vignette about Jeff's career (rare for BSPN) after his 85th win at Atlanta, celebrating him "breaking" the tie with Darell and Bobby for 3rd all time (of course BSPN was playing company line refusing to acknowledge Bobby has EIGHTY FIVE career wins, Jeff broke the tie and moved into 3rd on the all time win list at Pocono '12). They had soundbites from other drivers talking about their respect from Gordon. I guess the vignette shifted at some point to his historical context, and the "expert aalysis" from none other than Sliced Bread himself. He did mention the "no disrespect" thing but said something to the effect of "back when Richard was racing, they raced a lot more". The moral of the story, as always, Joey Logano is a tool and he can kiss my ass. Btw, have I mentioned how epic that Atlanta race was? Not sure if I have mentioned my feelings on those llast 10 laps yet :) 1354. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Btw, have I mentioned how epic that Atlanta race was? Not sure if I have mentioned my feelings on those last 10 laps yet :)" To be honest, I don't recall you saying such a thing, DSFF. But I would have to say that that may have been the most epic finish since Craven/Busch at Darlington '03. To see the two greatest active drivers duke it out for those final 10 laps was just amazing, and the fact that they did it at Atlanta, which in some ways is like a quad oval version of Rockingham, made it even more special. Johnson was clearly faster than Gordon as he ran him down and got side-by-side with him for several laps, but Gordon had the preferred line and when he saw the #48 in his mirror, he suddenly went into "Refuse to Lose" mode and went on to win while Johnson just about wrecked himself coming out of turn 4 on the final lap. Purely epic. But you know what wasn't epic? Listening to ESPN's call of the final 10 laps. I remember being in the moment while seeing it live, and I think I was so sucked into the duel between Jeff and Jimmie that I wasn't even listening to ESPN's call of the race. Not that long ago I watched those final 10 laps on YouTube and it almost broke my heart hearing ESPN's half-hearted call of the finish. Even Allen Bestwick wasn't on his game for that finish. It was almost as bad as Joe Buck's commentary during Super Bowl XLII when David Tyree made arguably the greatest catch of all-time (seriously, go back and listen to that call. It's pathetic). I mean, what more could ESPN ask for? Two greatest active drivers, on a difficult race track, just two races before the Chase, both drivers have a lot of momentum going into the Chase, and whoever wins gets 3 bonus points towards the championship. And yet, if you weren't watching the TV and just listening, you would have thought nothing special was in the making. Terrible on ESPN's part. Simply terrible. Also, I don't remember anyone saying this on the Pocono page, but isn't it ironic how Jeff passed Bobby Allison for 3rd on the all-time wins list at Pocono, the very track that ended Allison's career TWENTY-FOUR years earlier? You can't make that stuff up. 1355. David posted: 12.10.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Btw, have I mentioned how epic that Atlanta race was? Not sure if I have mentioned my feelings on those last 10 laps yet :)" Why should you want to, considering that it is a clear case of Jeff and Jimmie head-to-head and Jeff beating Jimmie straight up? Just messing with you a little, haha. 1356. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There was this video once that I can't find anywhere. In the wake of The Tyree Catch and Joe Buck's typical dull as a butter knife call, they put a video together of sports greatest moments and somebody did a dead on Joe Buck impersonation calling those moments. Things like Kirk Gibson's World Series homer, Joe Carter's walk off World Series homer (with "Joe" saying, as dull as can be "touch them all Joe, if you want it to count") and has its high point wheome South American soccer player scores a dramatic goal (well, dramatic by soccer's standards) at the point where the commentator usually loses his shit and yells "GOOOOOOOOOAAAAALLLLL" over and over, with "Joe" simply saying, as flat as possible "goal". I gotta find it, it is hilarious. And I refer to Atlanta '11 as Johnson/Gordon II, with Martinsville being Johnson/Gordon I. Looking forward to the rubber match, Johnson/Gordon III. Thought Dover this year would be it, then NASCAR decided "man, this could be exciting and stir the fans emotions, we must stop this and thow a bullshit debris caution to trap Jeff a lap down". I am still angry about this. 1357. 18fan posted: 12.10.2012 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, which Martinsville is Johnson/Gordon I? Was it 2007? Because this year it was setting up to be a classic before the David Reutimann caution and the chaos that followed, leading to another Ryan Newman fluke win. In reference to an earlier post, that is not closing, that is being lucky to be in the right spot. Phoenix 2010 was closing, Daytona 2008 was also luck for Newman that Tony Stewart threw the Daytona 500 into Newman's lap. 1358. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was one of the few Dover races that I can remember very distinctly since it's now basically an aero-sensitive Bristol. NASCAR's calls with cautions crack me up, but it's more laughter out of frustration than out of enjoyment. When there are wrecked cars on the track (Charlotte '11, Phoenix '12), they sometimes never throw the caution. But when there's literally nothing on the race track (too many races to count in 2012, although Dover stands out), they jump at the chance to throw the caution. It's like the Three Stooges are making the calls up in the NASCAR tower sometimes. I'd imagine that this is how the decision was made: "Let's see, there are only two cars capable of winning this thing and one of them is on a different pit sequence than the rest of the field. And it just happens to be Gordon/Johnson III. Wouldn't it be hilarious if we threw the caution right now, trapping Gordon a lap down, thus handing Johnson the win and allowing the fans and media to see him dawn the "circus afro" in victory lane? Yeah, let's do it!" This sport is so corrupt that I wouldn't put it past them to throw the caution to trap Gordon a lap down just to advertise a stupid movie. Forget about giving the fans Gordon/Johnson III, they were more concerned about promoting "Madagascar III". Bravo NASCAR. And that "Joe Buck" video sounds awesome. I was so disappointed that the Giants/Saints game had that clown calling the action, For some reason he always gets the Fox "Game of the Week" game. I'd rather listen to the Fox Studio team of Curt, Terry, Howie, and Jimmy call a game than Buck. Actually, now that I think about it, that would be pretty hilarious. 1359. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "which Martinsville is Johnson/Gordon I? Was it 2007?" Correct. 1360. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.10.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, I forgot to mention it was the Spring 2007 race at Martinsville. Those last 10 laps were epic. How the hell did Jimmie hang on to that car in the final corner? 1361. murb posted: 12.10.2012 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Eury Jr is gonna be the new crew chief on David Stremme's 30 car in 2013. Personally, I'm happy to see him wind up somewhere after the way he and his dad were shafted from JRM due to TP's performance. I just wish it was with a little bit better of a ride, because despite what the Jr fans (or possibly even Jr for that matter) think, I've always thought that he was a pretty good crew chief. By the way, in case you didn't catch that, TP is my new name for Danica. It stands for "The Princess". And obviously, it also stands for toilet paper. Am I saying that Danica herself is equivalent to toilet paper? Not necessarily. But am I saying that her attitude and her performance on track are equivalent to toilet paper? Perhaps. 1362. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd like to know why someone (Jeff Gordon) isn't in some of your Top Ten list. It's the one of the most rediculous things I have ever seen in my life. -4 NASCAR Sprint Cup Championships -87 wins (which include 3 Daytona 500s, 4 Brickyard 400s, 6 Southern 500s(4 straight), 3 Coke 600 wins, and 9 road course wins) -298 Top Fives -414 Top Tens -72 Poles -3 Winston All-Star Wins -18 Top Ten Points finishes in 20 full time seasons (avg. points finish of 5.5) I don't care how good Hendrick Motorsports is, I don't care how good Ray Evernham was. Everyone talks about the lack of drivers there were in the mid to late 90s, PLEASE!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Jeff Gordon had to beat some of the toughest people in the peaks of their careers, Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett, Bobby Labonte, Terry Labonte, Jeff Burton, Tony Stewart, a reborn Bill Elliott and Ricky Rudd, Kevin Harvick, Matt Kenseth and a fading Dale Earnhardt which is still better than most drivers. I know it aint much of anything coming from me but he's a Top five driver. Those stats above are crazy good and speak for themselves! Arguably the best driver of the modern era and by far the best driver of the last 20 years. 1363. Paul posted: 12.10.2012 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As much as I disagree with DSFF's list, I still think it's better than the "Top 10" list that SPEED did. They ranked Jimmie Johnson in 3rd place and had Bobby Allison ranked 10th, both of which are just unacceptable when listing the top 10 greatest drivers. But then again, this is the same network that ranked Kyle Busch's 3-race Bristol weekend sweep in '09 as the "Greatest Bristol Moment in NASCAR History". Yeah, because that's the moment that sticks out in our minds when we think of famous Bristol moments. 1364. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way I moved Junior Johnson to 16th on my all-time greats list. I know that will make some people happier. I just don't get why most people put him in their Top Ten. The 50 wins in 314 starts is great 148 Top Tens is pretty good as well, not quite half of hist starts, and yea his equipment broke a lot but Top Ten good?! I just don't see it. To make my Top Ten you need the championship ring(s) as well. It's not my fault he didn't wanna race full time. 1365. BON GORDON posted: 12.10.2012 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And SPEED's The Ten show is a bunch of crap in my eyes about 4 or 5 of their Top Ten lists I can agree with the other half they just threw together. I think they ranked Darrell Waltrip 5th and Jeff Gordon 6th which is a BIG load of crap. Gordon beats Waltrip in every major category, wins, top fives, top tens, poles, Daytona 500 and SOuthern 500 wins, roadcourse wins, and Championships, and in less starts too. I don't care if he started his own team and it sucked. He shoulda stuck wih Hendrick or somebody. 1366. David posted: 12.10.2012 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This sport is so corrupt that I wouldn't put it past them to throw the caution to trap Gordon a lap down just to advertise a stupid movie." And yet it is a sport we all enjoy. What a bunch of characters we are. 1367. Mr X posted: 12.11.2012 - 1:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It snowed here today Paul, I'm in Winnipeg, probably a good 10 hour drive north of where you are, it was about 30 below today with the wind chill, and the remainder of the week doesn't look much better with about 4-6 inches of snow expected over the next few days, it does get worse. 1368. cjs3872 posted: 12.11.2012 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure I agree that Tony Stewart handed the 2008 Daytona 500 to Ryan Newman, 18fan. As fast as Newman and Kurt Busch were closing, they were going to pass Stewart anyway. What decided that race was the first evidence of the tandem drafting that became so prevalent in 2011. Newman and Busch discovered what a speed advantage that produced in the fall Talladega race the year before, but because of the bumpy surface at Daytona at that time, the really couldn't use it to full effect. But when they got hooked up at the end of the 2008 Daytona 500, Busch got on Newman's bumper and pushed him down the back straightaway, and the speed advantage the tandem draft they had going was evident immediately, as they blew past Kyle Busch and Stewart. 1369. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey CJS when you gonna do your 30-21 greatest driver list? I can't wait to see it. 1370. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 2:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah right I am it's going to be in the 20s and low 30s all week, with a chance of snow on Saturday. By then the temperature is supposed to drop into the teens. Man, things really got cold in a hurry around here. Last year we didn't get snow until February, so this is a change of pace for sure. I just wish Stewart would have moved out of the way at Talladega this year like he did in the '08 Daytona 500, then we wouldn't have 25 wrecked race cars and that "epic battle to the finish" between Mikey and Mears that we all wanted to see. Well...maybe not, but if there was ever a time for Stewart to get out of the way of faster cars, it was at Talladega, NOT in the Daytona 500. So I agree with all previous claims that Stewart is a choke artist, as that was one big race that he should have won. Oddly enough, he took himself out of contention with a winning car the year before as well when he hit the apron and wrecked himself and Kurt Busch. Add in his '04 and '05 choke jobs, and Stewart is a 4-time loser of the Daytona 500. He's given away more Daytona 500s than some of the all-time greats have won. Also, I just watched a replay of the final 3 laps, and Ryan Newman was pushing the hell out of Stewart that entire time. I have no idea why Stewart changed lanes and went down in front of Kyle Busch like he did because all it did was slow Kyle down and cause the inside lane to lose its momentum, thus handing the win to Newman with Kurt Busch pushing him. It's almost fitting that the 3rd and 4th place finishers had the two best cars, but were driven by choke artists, while the 1st and 2nd place finishers probably shouldn't have finished there given that Newman and Kurt have a combined 1 restrictor plate win (though Kurt does have 3 runner-up finishes in the Daytona 500), and yet raced their way up to a 1-2 finish because neither of those two are choke artists and are always capable of getting a better finish than they probably should. Another thing I noticed from the replay that I found pretty cool was after the cars crossed the finish line, FOX's aerial view of the finish showed that for a brief moment, all the cars in the lead pack formed an "8" shape on the track. I won't post the link because sometimes it takes a while for posts with links to show up on this page, but it's something that's pretty neat to check out for yourselves. 1371. Bronco posted: 12.11.2012 - 3:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I deliberately omitted Burton, Labonte, Kahne, and Earnhardt Jr" Well then your list has absolutely zero meaning whatsoever, if you're going to say that Johnson and Gordon are anything less than Tier 1 talents and that Labonte (Won a championship and 3 of the majors), Burton (very good given the right equipment), Kahne (lots of talent) and Earnhardt Jr (multiple wins and championship contender) don't have a place on the list, but yet several no-namers do. 1372. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 3:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kahne doesn't need to be in a Top 50 greatest driver list as of now. Give it a few years with Hendrick. He has the potential but only time will tell. If Bobby Labonte, Dale Jr., and Jeff Burton aren't somewhere in a Top 50 list than I have to agree with Bronco. 1373. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco and BON GORDON, I did that list imagining what would happen if those guys were given equal equipment in the prime of their careers. That's what would happen. If you can't criticize without an attitude, then don't say a word. You two need to surf the stats and read a good 10-20 books on NASCAR history. 1374. cjs3872 posted: 12.11.2012 - 11:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll release it in the next day or two, BON GORDON. 1375. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But then again, this is the same network that ranked Kyle Busch's 3-race Bristol weekend sweep in '09 as the "Greatest Bristol Moment in NASCAR History". Yeah, because that's the moment that sticks out in our minds when we think of famous Bristol moments." The Bristol sweep was in 2010. But I guess that proves your point even further. 1376. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nicorosberg Fan as much as I disagree with you I could care less what your list looks like. No attitude here. I love seeing different opinions and different takes on NASCAR's all-time best. And believe me, no one is bigger on stats than me. I have many, many of NASCAR books. 1377. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And believe me, no one is bigger on stats than me. I have many, many of NASCAR books." Want to bet? Just kidding. It's just that I have dozens of Excel spreadsheets sitting at home, filled with numbers and names. I have even invented my own stat, 43-car Adjusted Average Finish. This stat is for the purpose of translating average finishes in seasons before 1998 into hypothetical average finishes as if they were in a 43-car field for all the races. It is for the purpose of comparison to 1998-present's (except 2001) average finishes. It it simple really: 43-car Adjusted Average Finish = 43 - (Percent Beat*42) I'll give you an example. Mark Martin's "raw" average finish in 1990 was 6.55. On average, he beat 85.13% of the field. So by the formula: 43 - (0.8513*42) = 7.2454 So Mark Martin's 43-car average finish in 1990 was 7.25, adjusted for smaller fields. 1378. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "-4 NASCAR Sprint Cup Championships" For an organization with 10 championships, the other 6 all came during his tenure there after his first title. "-87 wins (which include 3 Daytona 500s, 4 Brickyard 400s, 6 Southern 500s(4 straight), 3 Coke 600 wins, and 9 road course wins)" Out of 209 wins (42%). Seeing as how he was in the field for 60 of Jimmie's wins for the organization alone, that diminishes the significance of that number significantly. Also, HMS has 6 total Daytona 500s (1 apiece for short termers Bodine and Darrell, and one for JJ who absolutely cannot draft to save his life). HMS has 8 total Brickyard 400 wins with Jimmie accounting for the other 4 in less starts than Jeff. And HMS has TEN World 600 wins, with Jimmie also winning 3 (in a row!). Now road courses and Darlington Jeff has outperformed his equipment. He is outstanding in those two areas where HMS has been comparatively weak. "-3 Winston All-Star Wins" Which ties him for the most with Earnhardt and (wait for it... wait for it...) Jimmie Johnson (in less attempts). For the record, HMS has 7 All Star wins. "I don't care how good Hendrick Motorsports is" I do. When factoring in success rates, you must consider the equipment. Even from 1995 to present (the year Jeff hit his stride) he isn't responsible for half of their success. "Jeff Gordon had to beat some of the toughest people in the peaks of their careers" Now this is where you go off course. "Mark Martin" It is impressive that he beat Mark two years in a row straight up ('97 and '98) during Mark's peak as a driver and at the peak of his equipment. This is a very nice feather in Mark's cap. "Dale Jarrett" It was his peak as a driver and that 88 team was clicking, but they are more a product of their era (Ford dominated, very top heavy) and DJ has always been whatever his equipment is. When he was in the best, he could win. If not, then he couldn't. "Bobby Labonte" Honestly, Bobby was only a major factor outside of Atlanta for two years, '99 and '00. Outside of those two years, his career is pretty much forgettable. And he beat Gordon those two years. Plus he was a pretty one diminsional driver. Also too conservative (although the cautious approach did win him the 2000 Winston Cup). Especially in the final laps. I can think of two wins this cost him right off the top of my head ('00 Atlanta, '05 Charlotte). Yes he hit his peak as a driver during Jeff's run. This does not help Jeff's historical case. "Terry Labonte" WAY too conservative and nice. For his talent level, he held himself back. He NEVER attacked. Ever. He just waited for stuff to fall in his lap. Which the 1996 Winston Cup did. I wonder if Jeff ever got a Thank You card for that one. Besides, I'd argue he peaked as a driver from '90-'92 when he gave some really nice runs for some REALLY crummy equipment. "Jeff Burton" Calling him too nice is an insult to people that are too nice like Mark and Terry. Really more of a product of the exceptional cars Roush and Ford were churning out from '97-'00. "Tony Stewart" He didn't even show up until '99. Besides, in his first 4 years, he outperformed Jeff in 3 of those years, Jeff's title season of '01 being the exception. Didn't hit his peak as a stock car driver until '05 when he got his head on halfway straight. Sort of. What I'm trying to say is that he is a major headcase. "a reborn Bill Elliott" WAY past his prime by the time he hooked up with the overrated Evernham team. And his owner/driver years were almost as depressing as Richard Petty's final 5 seasons. "Ricky Rudd" He hit his peak as a driver from '86-'92. The best of the owner/drivers which isn't saying a whole lot. Incapable of winning more than a race or two per year. Twice found himself in title contention at or past the halfway mark of a season, and gagged like hell both times ('91 and '01). I wonder if he ever got a Thank You note from Dale for '91 (although after The Great Wilkesboro Incident of Eighty Nine, he owed it to Dale to suck so badly down the stretch in '91 while Dale himself was fading too). "Kevin Harvick" You've gotta be kidding me. "Matt Kenseth" Has he really outperformed Matt? Matt didn't hit his stride as a driver until '02. But even going from his rookie year of '00 forward, he has the same number of championships as Gordon (1 apiece), more Daytona 500s (2 to 1) and World 600s (1 to zip), less Southern 500s (2 to zip) and Brickyard 400s (2 to zip), the same number of All Star wins (1 apiece), and about 10 less wins. Seeing as how Matt has never lit up the win column in a given year (except '02), that isn't saying much. Also, Jeff has 6 Top 5 points finishes to Matt's 5 over that span. So yeah, he has outperformed Matt, somebody not on anyone's Top 25 list, but not by much. "and a fading Dale Earnhardt which is still better than most drivers." It is true that a 60% Dale (which he was from Summer '96-'99) is better than most, but he had quite a few factors from '95 onwards. First off, the new Monte Carlo which HMS nailed and RCR never got a great hold of. Secondly, the organizations themselves. RCR was still a single car team in '95 and '96 while HMS had already perfected the multi car system. Then once Richard did join the 90's (seven years too late) he got Mike Skinner to be Dale's teammate (needless to say he got no useful information from Mike except how to hit the wall). Throw in the injuries and Father Time and its a wonder Dale did what he did from '95-'99. Compare this to what a much younger Jeff has done from '08-'12 with a much better organization. " Arguably the best driver of the modern era" Modern era championships: Dale Earnhardt: 7 Jimmie Johnson: 5 Richard Petty: 4 Jeff Gordon 4 (Richard wins the tie breaker cause the modern era didn't start until he was on the back side of his peak as a driver which was '64-'75. Despite the fact that 8 of his 12 peak seasons happened before the modern era, him and Jeff are still tied in championships, modern era Top 5 points finishes, and most wins in a modern era season. Also, he has never tried to kill anybody on track like Jeff did at Phoenix and he is Richard Freaking Petty. Anyone wanna argue that one?) "and by far the best driver of the last 20 years." 5 is a bigger number than 4. 1379. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF I'm curious, what would Jeff have to do to break into your top 10 list? Would he have to win/seriously contend for another championship? Win some more majors? Reach 90 or even 100 career wins? I know that some of these aren't likely at this point in his career, but I'm just wondering if it's possible for him to break into your top 10 greatest drivers list at this point. ""Kevin Harvick" You've gotta be kidding me." Not gonna lie, this made me laugh. Harvick is nothing more than a very good Cup driver. Nothing more, often times less. If he didn't have so many Nationwide and Truck wins, or act like a tough guy in his interviews, I think we would have forgotten about him for most of his Cup tenure. Also, don't expect me to take sides in this Gordon/Johnson discussion for the foreseeable future. I hate to say it, but I'm starting to be swayed in this debate. 1380. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never said Gordon was Richard Petty but you are in the minority when you downplay Gordon's career. I notice you have Bobby Allison, Cale Yarborough ahead of Jimmie in your list. Hmmm I beleive 5 is better than 1 and 3 as well. Championships are very important but not everything. You have this love fest with Jimmie Johnson vs. Jeff Gordon. Why don't you campare Gordon's number's to Earnhardt's numbers from 95-99. I know Johnson has been better than Gordon really from 2004 till now. You are 100% correct but don't deminish Jeff's accomlishments. I'm not buying it and Jeff had great equipment but tough drivers to race against. Who did Earnhardt have from 90-94?! Geoffrey Bodine, Alan Kuilwicki, a fading Darrell Waltrip, a not so good Bill Elliott dispite a good 1992 season, and a younger but less experienced Mark Martin, an inconsistent Davey Allison. PLEASE!!! Rusty was his best competition but also too inconsistent to win titles. Don't talk to me about lack of competition. No one wanted to wreck Earnhardt cause they feared they'd get wrecked and if they tried it didn't work out to well for them (Geoffrey Bodine). And let me tell you something else from 1986-1994 generally Dale Sr. was the best driver but you can't get all those stats, wins and championships without and good car and a good team. So saying Jefff Gordon had the best equipment and team is true but Sr. had pretty good equipment too. I know there were years when Bill Elliott was really good and other's but THEY didn't have the consistency and luck. Oh and here's some modern era stats for you DaleSrFanForver... Best Top five MODERN ERA stats(1972-2012) Wins: #1. Jeff Gordon-87 #2. Darrell Waltrip-84 #3. Dale Earnhardt-76 #4. Cale Yarborough-69 #5. Jimmie Johnson-60 Top Fives: #1. Jeff Gordon-298 #2. Dale Earnhardt-281 #3. Darrell Waltrip-276 #4. Mark Martin-270 #5. Richard Petty-221 Top Tens: #1. Mark Martin-448 #2. Dale Earnhardt-428 #3. Jeff Gordon-414 #4. Darrell Waltrip-390 #5. Ricky Rudd-374 Poles: #1. Jeff Gordon-72 #2. Darrell Waltrip-59 #3. David Pearson-58 #4. Mark Martin-55 #5. Bill Elliott-55 Laps Led: #1. Cale Yarborough-27,243 #2. Dale Earnhardt-25,684 #3. Jeff Gordon-23,147 #4. Darrell Waltrip- 23,134 #5. Rusty Wallace-19,971 Daytona 500 Wins: #1. Richard Petty-4 #2. Jeff Gordon-3 #2. Dale Jarrett-3 #2. Bobby Allison-3 #2. Cale Yarborough-3 Southern 500 wins: #1. Jeff Gordon-6 #2. Cale Yarborough-4 #3. Dale Earnhardt-3 #4. Bobby Allison, Harry Gant, David Pearson-2 Championships: #1. Dale Earnhardt-7 #2. Jimmie Jonnson-5 #3. Jeff Gordon-4 #4. Richard Petty-4 #5. Tony Stewart-3 HMMMMMMMMMMMMM. It seems to me Gordon leads most of those categories and is in the Top three in all of them. DaleSrFanForvever the stats speak for themselves. If you published a book, I went to a book store, picked up your book of NASCAR's all-time best and looked through it and seen Gordon was not in your Top Ten I would immediately throw the book on the ground and leave the book store pissed off. Then I'd call the publisher of your book and tell them it was a waste of their money and complain that I wish I had the few seconds back when I read your book. 1381. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except for the fact that it was typed in anger, I agree with the above comment. 1382. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh it was David. LOL! 1383. Anonymous posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In favor of Bon Gordon i'll do the service of listing EVERY single stat that exist(not really) for the Modern age: Most Crown Jewel wins: Jeff Gordon 20 Most consecutive Crown Jewel winning seasons: Jeff Gordon 9(1994-2002,nobody else has a longer streak than 4) Back-Back wins: Jeff Gordon 22 Most wins in a season: Jeff Gordon and Richard Petty 13 Most Top 5's in a season: Jeff Gordon 26 in 1998(this is higher than Dale's best single season Top 10 total) Most consecutive Top 5's: Jeff Gordon 17(This is as many as Tony Stewart ever had in entire season of 36 races) Most Top 10's in a season: Jeff Gordon 30 in 2007 Most double digit Top 5 seasons: Jeff Gordon 16 out of 20 Most Races Led Most: Jeff Gordon 90 Most consecutive 10+ win seasons: Jeff Gordon 3(1996-98) Most Consecutive Road-Race wins: Jeff Gordon 6(His 9 is more than Dale Earnhardt,Jimmie Johnson and Richard Petty combined!you can't dismiss this.) And probably the most unappreciated stat that Gordon wields is his Back-Back Triple Crown+Most wins+Championship seasons in 1997-98. You can't really grant the drivers of the 70's more respect with they're inflated win totals(except Petty)because 4 drivers won more than 70% of all races in the 1970's, anymore than you can take away from Gordon's 5 year domination in 1995-99. 1384. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^That's very obviously me above. 1385. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank you very much JG24FanForver. There's no reason why he should be so much against Gordon. There are so many stats, so many accomplishments, and so much history jeff Gordon has produced I'm sitting here waiting for a reponse from Mr. DaleSrFan. Unfortunatley for him there's not a response in the world that would ever get me to sway anywhere near his reasonings. 1386. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is off-topic, but JG24FanForever, I was listening to my Sisters of Mercy song last night and I remembered how when we were talking about music a few months ago, you mentioned that there's an album of theirs that I should get. Which album was that called again? 1387. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon not being in the Top 10 and Lee Petty being 5th smells of a personal need to try and diminish Jeff Gordon. Lee Petty was a dirty driver that wrecked people more than Dale Earnhardt, and wasn't on the Natural talent level anywhere near a Herb Thomas a Tim Flock a Curtis Turner a Fireball Roberts and a Junior Johnson. Lee Petty never sniffed a Southern 500 and Gordon has 6(Counting 2007). Gordon also has 4 Winston Cup Championships in 7 season's to Lee Petty's 3 Grand National title's in 6. 4 is more than 3. 1388. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I can predict what the contents of DSFF's next comment will be: Modern Era Win %: 1. David Pearson - 21.84 2. Cale Yarborough - 18.85 3. Jimmie Johnson - 15.04 4. Jeff Gordon - 12.63 5. Bobby Allison - 11.55 Modern Era Top Five %: 1. Cale Yarborough - 53.83 2. David Pearson - 52.43 3. Bobby Allison - 45.59 4. Jeff Gordon - 43.25 5. Jimmie Johnson - 41.60 Modern Era Top Ten %: 1. Dale Earnhardt - 63.31 2. Cale Yarborough - 63.11 3. Bobby Allison - 63.03 4. Jimmie Johnson - 62.16 5. David Pearson - 60.19 1389. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,Floodland is the name of the album. They also have another great album called "First and Last and Always". You should go to YouTube and look up "Flood I" and "Flood II" and listen. 1390. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well I dont know about all of that JG24 but I will agree that Lee Petty being 5th on his list is a little high. However Lee Petty is around a 9th to 10th place driver all-time. And I know that DaleSrFanForver is definately trying to deminish Jeff Gordon's career by not having him in the Top Ten and talking so poorly of him. 1391. Talon64 posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's one thing that works in Jimmie's favor. If he can rack up 28 top 10's next season, he'd overtake Dale Earnhardt for the best top 10 finishing % in the modern era. Jimmie's currently 4th at .6216, while Earnhardt's 1st at .6331. 27 top 10's in 36 races next year would give Jimmie 276 top 10's in 435 starts, a .6344 percentage. Over a two-year stretch, Jimmie would need 51 total top 10's. 3 years, 74 total top 10's. Jimmie's never had more than 24 top 10's in a season, more than 48 in a 2-year stretch and 70 in a 3-year stretch, so he'd have to stretch it a bit to get there. 1392. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well I dont know about all of that JG24" Lee Petty crashed out Turner in the 57' Southern 500 while he was leading,he also crashed Weatherly in the 58' Daytona Beach Course Convertible event,and he even wrecked out Richard Petty in one of Richard's first starts. 1393. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the funny thing about this whole thing is I never denied Jimmie Johnson's talent and accomplishments. I never said Gordon has been a better driver than Jimmie Johnson. I have Gordon ranked ahead of him for now but that's becaus overall Gordon still has a more srtoried career. I even said in an early post that Johnson will be Top three by the time he retires (ahead of Gordon even). So DaleSrFan doesn't have to tell me how much better Johnson is than Gordon. Like Earnhardt in the mid to late 90s Gordon is struggling to find greatness again. He can't really get ahold of the COT, he's aging and has had back problems, and family is more important in the end to him. He's still really good and always has been and always will be a legend of NASCAR...A Top five all-time driver for sure. 1394. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As great as those stats are in Gordon's favor guys, you know that he's going to reiterate the fact that 5 is a greater number than 4. Nevermind the fact that Jeff has Jimmie beat when it comes to overall points by a score of 6 to 2 (or 5 to 3/4, depending on your feelings on '04 and even '08 when Jimmie blew a motor in the Chase), because as we all know, every driver knew going into the season what the points system was like, and how it's Jeff's fault for not being aggressive enough in the final 10 races, even though his skill is being great over an entire season, not over a 10-race stretch at the end of the season. And obviously it's Jeff's fault for what he did between '02 and '06 when he was still recovering from the loss of his crew chief/mentor, father, and wife from his life in a 2 1/2 year span, not to mention losing some close friends from within the HMS organization after the plane crash. It's completely his fault for letting his internal feelings detract from his performance, rather than allow himself to become an emotionless juggernaut who has no feelings. And it's also Jeff's fault for his performance between '08-'10. Nevermind the fact that he had a crew chief who knows more about motivating his driver than he does about cars, and that he suffered three back injuries in a span of 17 months, if he was really as good as his fans say he is, he would have overcame those setbacks and still won races and contended for a championship. After all, just look at what Earnhardt did with Larry Mac as his crew chief...oh wait. So shame on Jeff for having real human emotions and being distracted by them on the track, for getting injured and having an inconsistent crew chief that couldn't make proper adjustments throughout the race, and for allowing these setbacks to interfere in "what is typically the prime of a driver's career between age 28-38. Give me a f***ing break. Yeah I realize I'm going against what I said a couple hours ago by defending Jeff. Sue me. 1395. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks JG24. I'll be sure to check them out when I get a chance. And I echo Bon Gordon's sentiments by saying that I respect the hell out of the Emotionless Juggernaut's ability behind the wheel of a race car, and think that it's amazing that two of the all-time greats are racing against each other in this watered-down era of "everyone is good, but hardly anyone is great" drivers. I guess I don't have as big of a problem with DSFF ranking Jimmie over Jeff as I do him leaving Jeff completely out of his top 10 list. I mean, what more do you want? Do you want Jeff to go back in time and drive the first few years of his career with Bill Davis or the Stavola Brothers and "earn" a top flight ride? Do you want him to go back even further and drive cars without power steering that were often times incapable of finishing races (which I firmly believe he could because Jeff has always been tremendous at finishing races and not over-driving the car, something that Jimmie is incapable of doing)? I think greatness should be defined by this one simple question: Could that driver succeed in a different era? And I firmly believe that Gordon could succeed in any era because he doesn't make any mistakes and is capable of being aggressive when he needs to be. I don't think the same for Johnson though because I don't think he could win in an era where finishing the race was difficult, such as back in the pre-Modern Era and even in the late '70s and '80s. I can see Gordon succeeding in any era, but I can't see Johnson doing the same, and that's why I have Gordon ranked higher. 1396. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also something interesting I just discovered, Matt Kenseth won't be sponsored by The Home Depot next year, but rather by Husky, which is a tool brand owned by The Home Depot. It's kind of like their version of Kobalt, which is owned by Lowe's. So Kenseth will be driving a red Husky car next year, not the traditional orange Home Depot car like in years past. I like this because it's best to just get the stench of Stewart and Logano away from the JGR organization, and having a different paint scheme and sponsor on the hood is a good change. 1397. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How many times has Dale Earnahrdt won a Short-Track race,a Crown Jewel event and a Road-Race in the same season? Answer: 1 in 1995. How many for Johnson? Answer: 0. Jeff Gordon to date is the last man to do this, and he did it 4 straight seasons from 1997-2000. 1398. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and even '08 when Jimmie blew a motor in the Chase" I know where you're taking this from. When I said Charlotte, I meant the 600. Jimmie Johnson blew an engine in the '08 Coca-Cola 600, which I counted as "experimenting", which affected his year-end points total. "You know that he's going to reiterate the fact that 5 is a greater number than 4" You know what else? 87 is a greater number than 60. Is 27 wins worth more than one championship? I think it is, unless you don't already have a title. "And it's also Jeff's fault for his performance between '08-'10. Nevermind the fact that he had a crew chief who knows more about motivating his driver than he does about cars, and that he suffered three back injuries in a span of 17 months, if he was really as good as his fans say he is, he would have overcame those setbacks and still won races and contended for a championship. After all, just look at what Earnhardt did with Larry Mac as his crew chief...oh wait." I'm using someone else's logic here, but just as Jeff was too loyal to Hendrick and Johnson for his own good, I believe the same is true for his crew chief. Most of the time, Jeff doesn't veto his crew chief's calls. NASCAR is a TEAM sport. 1399. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is 27 wins worth more than one championship?" I think 4 Winston Cup Championships is worth WAY more than 5 Chase Championships. Jeff Gordon won the most races+ a Crown Jewel in all 4 of his title's. Jimmie Johnson has done this once and Dale did it just twice out of 7. 1400. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I like this because it's best to just get the stench of Stewart and Logano away from the JGR organization" Ironic, isn't it, that seven years after the Home Depot car wrecked Matt Kenseth in the Daytona 500, Kenseth himself will be driving that very car, albeit a different version. "And I echo Bon Gordon's sentiments by saying that I respect the hell out of the Emotionless Juggernaut's ability behind the wheel of a race car, and think that it's amazing that two of the all-time greats are racing against each other in this watered-down era of "everyone is good, but hardly anyone is great" drivers. I guess I don't have as big of a problem with DSFF ranking Jimmie over Jeff as I do him leaving Jeff completely out of his top 10 list. I mean, what more do you want? Do you want Jeff to go back in time and drive the first few years of his career with Bill Davis or the Stavola Brothers and "earn" a top flight ride? Do you want him to go back even further and drive cars without power steering that were often times incapable of finishing races (which I firmly believe he could because Jeff has always been tremendous at finishing races and not over-driving the car, something that Jimmie is incapable of doing)? I think greatness should be defined by this one simple question: Could that driver succeed in a different era? And I firmly believe that Gordon could succeed in any era because he doesn't make any mistakes and is capable of being aggressive when he needs to be. I don't think the same for Johnson though because I don't think he could win in an era where finishing the race was difficult, such as back in the pre-Modern Era and even in the late '70s and '80s. I can see Gordon succeeding in any era, but I can't see Johnson doing the same, and that's why I have Gordon ranked higher." Bingo. I, too, do not doubt Johnson's legendary skill behind the wheel. But could he have driven in a different era? That is the question. 1401. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look out for those Toyotas next year. Brad Keselowski says they may be the cars to beat. This brings me to a question: Is NASCAR still an "All-American" sport if it allows a Japanese-based manufacturer to compete? 1402. murb posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is NASCAR still an "All-American" sport if it allows a Japanese-based manufacturer to compete?" Ugh, we're still asking this question 8 years later? Here's my opinion: Baseball is supposedly America's past time (even though it's long since been replaced in that category by the NFL). I've never, ever heard anyone who is a baseball fan complain about all the foreign players that have come in. You have tons of Dominicans, you have tons of Venezuelans, you have tons of Koreans, and you have tons of Japanese people playing in the MLB. I don't see their presence in an American sport any differently than Toyota's. So when I hear people STILL complaining about Toyota 8 years after their arrival, it baffles me. Either get over it, or stop watching. By the way David, I'm not trying to call you out or get aggressive towards you or anything for asking that question. I just can't believe that some people still have an issue with Toyota, because from what I've seen, many people still do. 1403. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do not have any issue with Toyota, I just wanted the "people's opinion". 1404. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, I spend 90 minutes working out and miss everything. So much to go through, and I'll answer each of it directly. Bon, those are some nice numbers. But they only represent a few areas, and don't tell the story behind those numbers. If Jeff were responsible for about 70% of his own organization's success across the board then he would be Top 5 no question. But just looking at Hendrick's numbers from 1995 (the year that started the Gordon dynasty) to present, he isn't even responsible for half of their success. In that time frame, he is responsible for 49% of their wins, 49% of their laps led, 44% of their Top 5s, and most damningly 40% of their championships. And this includes 7 years before Jimmie Johnson showed up and has blown him away on track like Fartman. I haven't figured the numbers of Jeff's %s from 2002 to present, but it has to be ugly. "In favor of Bon Gordon i'll do the service of listing EVERY single stat that exist(not really) for the Modern age:" Now do us a favor and list Jeff's stats pre-JJ and post-JJ. That is a big reason I have a hard time ranking Jeff way high in historical rankings, at the tender age of 30 going on 31 (very young by racing's standards) Jimmie showed up in identical equipment and only 4 years younger and has made Jeff look mediocre by comparison (please note I said "by comparison"). I am not in love with Jimmie, but I just fail to see where that doesn't severely damage somebody historically. No Jimmie hasn't put together an out of this world stretch of winning over 5 seasons like Jeff did from '95-'99, but Jeff did all that prior to JJ showing up. Please explain to me how this says anything other than "Jimmie Johnson is clearly a better driver than Jeff Gordon"? "There's no reason why he should be so much against Gordon." I am not "against" Gordon. I understand his raw numbers jump off the page. And he is a hell of a driver. I really like the way adversity motivates him to driver even better (see Richmond '12, the best single race driving performance of the season). I just look at how his career has gone, its sudden halt in mind numbing productivity (like he had from '95-'01) once Jimmie showed up in equal equipment and the way Hendrick Motorsports is simply a hardware producing machine, especially since '95, and understand his numbers are inflated. And as I have said, he is legendary at the road courses at Darlington. He outperformed his equipment there. "eff Gordon not being in the Top 10 and Lee Petty being 5th smells of a personal need to try and diminish Jeff Gordon." Again, I have no personal need to diminish Gordon. I feel honored to have watched one of the 11 best drivers in NASCAR compete on TV and in person so many times. But as for Lee Petty, you have to consider his era. In the first 10 to 12 years of NASCAR, there were 3 main priorities: 1) Win a lot of races, the victories mattered more than anything 2) Win the Southern 500 3) Win the National driving title Lee did #1 and #3 better than anyone else of his day, with Herb Thomas a close second, and nobody else even close. Obviously his Darlington record was weak. You know who else had a weak Darlington record? Richard Petty. Only 3 of his 200 wins came at Darlington, all in a 4 race stretch from '66-'67 (or maybe it was '67-'68, I can't remember off the top of my head) including just ONE Southern 500 in 1967 in the middle of his epic 10 race winning streak. But Lee figured out Daytona quicker than anyone else so his big track prowess can't be questioned. Actually, considering Herb won the Southern 500 3 times, including in 1955 a few months after a bad wreck put him in the hospital for a month (not the Speedy-Buck-Carl 1956 wreck), I think I have Herb ranked too low. Herb Thomas is a hidden treasure of NASCAR. I think I wanna slide him in front of Darrell. "Lee Petty crashed out Turner in the 57' Southern 500 while he was leading,he also crashed Weatherly in the 58' Daytona Beach Course Convertible event,and he even wrecked out Richard Petty in one of Richard's first starts." His wife also once knocked Tiny Lund (who was not "tiny" at all) unconscious at drivers intros once with her purse which had a giant handgun inside. Racing was not refined at all back then. "Do you want Jeff to go back in time and drive the first few years of his career with Bill Davis or the Stavola Brothers and "earn" a top flight ride?" Actually yes. It would be interesting to see what he could do. Truth be told, I'd just like to see him drive about 10 years for Richard Childress and see what he could do. "Could that driver succeed in a different era?" That is impossible to prove for anyone. You have to look at their given era, see what the priorities were at the time, and see how they did at those compared to their peers, and also look at the quality of their competition. "How many times has Dale Earnahrdt won a Short-Track race,a Crown Jewel event and a Road-Race in the same season? " That is called nit picking. How many times did Dale win a road course race in a season? Once. He was a Top 5 machine on the road, but didn't lead many laps, and was rarely fighting for the win. Was he a "bad" road course driver? Of course not. He was a 4th place road course driver. Not bad. He finally found himself in contention at the end of a road race at Sears Point '95 when somebody dropped rear end grease all over the track, setting up a heart stopping slipping and sliding 5 lap duel between Dale and Mark that followed 69 laps of pure boredom (the spiritual grandfather of this year's Watkins Glen race). "Hey DSFF I'm curious, what would Jeff have to do to break into your top 10 list?" A late career surge (which I predicted would begin this year, but I was wrong) and at some point really taking it to Jimmie. Another championship might do the trick. I just have trouble looking past how, over a 20 year career, half of his success is concentrated over a 5 year stretch, "just" 4 championships with 87 wins including his current long ass drought (all with one team, so it is not explainable like Bobby's 1 title or Darrell's 3 or Cale's 3). Sorry, just looking at Jeff's career as a whole, from a distance, considering everything, something just leaves me a bit empty. "Who did Earnhardt have from 90-94?!" I'll answer this thoroughly in a moment. Right now I have some spaghetti to eat. 1405. Talon64 posted: 12.11.2012 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "half of his success is concentrated over a 5 year stretch," You could say that about a lot of drivers. Darrell Waltrip's 3 championships came in a 5 year stretch, which also included 47.6% of his 84 career wins. Cale Yarborough had an amazing 8 year stretch which included his 3 championships, 3 runner-up finishes and 55 of his 83 career wins. 42 of Pearson's 105 career wins came during his 3 championship seasons, which happened in a 4 year stretch. Then there's some who All the elite drivers in NASCAR history have their great periods, the all-time greats have periods where they dominate, and only the absolute best of all time (Earnhardt, Richard) could be dominant and win championships over entire eras. Then you've got Jimmie Johnson who could be there if he keeps up his pace for another 5 years and wins another championship, then there's Lee Petty and Tony Stewart who had success and championships over the long stretch but who I wouldn't put in that top tier. Gordon's not in that Earnhardt/RichardPetty class, but he's certainly in the class below that includes the other drivers who I noted. Certainly more than good enough to be at least top 10 all time, and I'd put him top 5, for winning races in 17 of his 20 seasons in Cup, winning multiple races in 16 of them (tied for 4th most all time), his career numbers across the board, his ability to win on any track, and that 5 year stretch of super dominance. 1406. murb posted: 12.11.2012 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I gotcha David. Like I said, I've never had a problem with Toyota. It just annoys me that some people are still complaining about it. But I guess it isn't surprising, since a lot of the opinions I've seen have come from the nascar.com faithful. I do agree with Brad Keselowski's prediction in that they will be strong. Obviously, Kenseth was a huge acquisition for them. Now they finally have a champion driver on their number one team who I'm sure can assist with developmental stuff and what not. Overall, I think JGR will be one of the overall teams to beat in the Cup Series. MWR will take a step back, but I still think they will be good. And it also looks as if BK Racing is going to attempt to jump into contenderland. I believe they will experience a lot of growth from last year. And as for JTG Daugherty, I'm afraid that Bobby is probably going to waste another one of his final years there. 1407. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He finally found himself in contention at the end of a road race at Sears Point '95 when somebody dropped rear end grease all over the track, setting up a heart stopping slipping and sliding 5 lap duel between Dale and Mark that followed 69 laps of pure boredom" I was watching this race. My fondest memory of it is Dale getting out of the car with the Steering Wheel,to symbolize the art being a wheel-man, which is what you have to be to win Road-Races. 1408. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My fondest memory of it is Dale getting out of the car with the Steering Wheel,to symbolize the art being a wheel-man, which is what you have to be to win Road-Races." Unfortunately, that victory celebration lost all meaning this year when Joey Logano started doing it following every victory. Some of us, including myself, give the Dillons and even Stenhouse shit about them wearing cowboy hats when they are anything but, but that celebration that Joey did this past year really annoyed me. I don't know what makes him a wheel-man, considering how in four seasons in the #20 Cup car, he had 0 top fifteen points finishes, while his predecessor had posted 4 top six points finishes and won a championship in his first four Cup seasons. 1409. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know what makes him a wheel-man, considering how in four seasons in the #20 Cup car, he had 0 top fifteen points finishes, while his predecessor had posted 4 top six points finishes and won a championship in his first four Cup seasons." Joey Logano is to Nascar what Ryan Leaf is to the NFL. HaHa! 1410. murb posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano has been doing that steering wheel thing since like 2009. But regardless, I absolutely agree. From now on, every time that a young race fan sees a clip of Earnhardt doing that after a win, they will say, "Hey! That guy with the moustache is doing the Joey Logano move!" Reason 7,951 why I don't like Joey Logano. Whoops, that's right, I said I would stop talking about him on here for the rest of the off season just because I don't want anymore of the headaches he gives me. My bad. 1411. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Logano has been doing that steering wheel thing since like 2009." Seriously? Well, he must have done that in the Nationwide Series since I rarely watched that series once the Cup drivers began to take over until 2011 when I finally got ESPN (yay me, right?). For years I rarely ever noticed Logano, now I notice him but just wish he would go away. Once an entitled jerk, always an entitled jerk. And while it may be true that "You can't fix stupid. It's forever," you can't fix being an entitled jerk either. 1412. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unfortunately, that victory celebration lost all meaning this year when Joey Logano started doing it following every victory. Some of us, including myself, give the Dillons and even Stenhouse shit about them wearing cowboy hats when they are anything but, but that celebration that Joey did this past year really annoyed me. I don't know what makes him a wheel-man, considering how in four seasons in the #20 Cup car, he had 0 top fifteen points finishes, while his predecessor had posted 4 top six points finishes and won a championship in his first four Cup seasons." Amen. In the history of NASCAR it would hard to find more polar opposites than Earnhardt and Logano when it comes to all areas including on track success, the road to making it to Cup, over/under performing your equipment, capturing the hearts of fans, and undeserved hype. Jeez almighty Brad, what were you thinking? "Overall, I think JGR will be one of the overall teams to beat in the Cup Series." I look for them to dominate the first 26 races with all 3 lighting up the win column. But I think once the cha$e starts, due to their past cha$e demons, KyBu and Denny will already have the yips when it starts, be jittery as hell, and the first time something goes wrong, major or not, they will mentally tank. It will be interesting to see how Kenseth responds. Will the overall sense of doom that will hang heavy in the JGR shops find its way to him, or will he say "screw it, its a new year and I am new here" and keep going strong? "I know the league MVP will probably either be Tom Brady or Peyton Manning because they're really the only players that matter to the media, but I still believe that Adrian Peterson deserves to be league MVP" If Adrian Peterson doesn't win the MVP this year, I will post an angry rant to end all angry rants. Especially if they give it to Brady or Manning. The anger from my words on this page may take on a life of their own and cause the 1988 Ultimate Warrior to come to life, jump out of your computer screen, clothesline you 3 times, gorilla press slam you, then nail you with the big splash. Even if you agree with me. If the Vikings didn't have AD they would be 2-11 right now. 1413. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finishes outside the Top 15 for Jeff Gordon,Dale Earnhardt and Jimmie Johnson: 0 For Joey Logano: all 4 years! In terms of living up to expectations,Joey Logano is the biggest failure in Cup history. And he made Mark Martin look less credible in spotting talent by saying "he's the best young driver i've ever seen" and "he could be a Cup champion". 1414. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "From now on, every time that a young race fan sees a clip of Earnhardt doing that after a win, they will say, "Hey! That guy with the moustache is doing the Joey Logano move!" " Good Lord dude, are you TRYING to give me a stroke? Just kidding, you are, very unfortunately, correct about this. I need to stop thinking about this or I will morph into the '88 Warrior, drive up to the local Wal Mart, and start gorilla press slamming people. 1415. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Finishes outside the Top 15 for Jeff Gordon,Dale Earnhardt and Jimmie Johnson: 0 For Joey Logano: all 4 years!" That's it, I'm gonna go find some face paint and some streamers to tie around my biceps. 1416. murb posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Seriously? Well, he must have done that in the Nationwide Series since I rarely watched that series once the Cup drivers began to take over" Well, he's only really had two opportunities to do it in Cup (actually just one since the rainout Loudon win had no victory lane), so it's no wonder you never saw it. But yeah, I remember specifically that he started doing that in either 2009 or early 2010, because it really pissed me off when he started doing it. I always saw that as an old school type of celebration, and Joey is certainly anything but old school. lol, DSFF as The Ultimate Warrior. See, I'm way younger, so the only version of the Ultimate Warrior I remember is the WCW one from 1998 where he showed up at War Games (I think?) in the Cage Match and then had that crappy match with Hulk Hogan at the Halloween show. I used to be huge into wrestling, along with auto racing. Somehow, I just lost interest in it around 2005 or so. I still do keep up with it a bit though. And when I say "keep up with it", I really mean "sit around and watch Botchamania on YouTube all day". And by the way, if you haven't, go to YouTube and look up Botchamania. It's basically like bloopers and unplanned things that have happened in wrestling. If you've ever remotely been a wrestling fan, you'll probably find yourself taking an entire day to watch all of them, lol. 1417. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And he made Mark Martin look less credible in spotting talent by saying "he's the best young driver I've ever seen" and "he could be a Cup champion"." The only reason for Mark saying this that I would defend would be if he met Joey Logano once, didn't like him, and made this statement hoping that some team would waste millions of dollars trying to get this rich kid to succeed. I'm 99.9% sure that isn't the case, but that would be kind of funny if Mark Martin, arguably the nicest guy in NASCAR, purposely tried to sabotage Joey's career by "endorsing" him. "Jeez almighty Brad, what were you thinking?" I almost hope that he was in a state of mind not all that unlike his legendary ESPN interview after winning the championship. I'd hate to think Brad was sober when he asked to be Cup teammates with Joey Logano. Unless he wanted Joey to help him win the owner's title in the Nationwide Series, or was drunk, I am not impressed by this decision. "But I think once the cha$e starts...[Kyle and Denny] will mentally tank. It will be interesting to see how Kenseth responds." Hopefully Kenseth is able to do what Joey will never be able to do and outperform the driver that wanted his team to sign him, that being Denny Hamlin. It's too early to tell how he'll do considering the bulk of JGR's focus will be used to help the #18 team make the Chase, but I look for Matt to be strong on all of his usual strength tracks (restrictor plate tracks, intermediates) and coast his way into the Chase, possibly with less momentum than his teammates, but with more experience and focus to carry him through the final 10 races. I don't know whether he'll be a title contender, but I can see him being the highest finishing Toyota driver in the points, with Denny, Kyle, and Clint in a 3-way battle for 2nd. "If Adrian Peterson doesn't win the MVP this year, I will post an angry rant to end all angry rants." This is one rant that I don't want to see because I cringe at the thought of Brady or Peyton winning the MVP award. A.D. has been lights out following his torn ACL and MCL injuries last season, and is the only reason why the Vikings have any shot at making the playoffs. Of course, this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with Peyton winning the award if he were to win it. I still can't believe they didn't give the award to either Kurt Warner or Drew Brees in 2008 after they carried their teams to the playoffs (and in Warner's case, the Super Bowl). Peyton had great receivers, running back, offensive line, and a surprisingly talented defense. Jim Sorgi could have led the '08 Colts to the playoffs that year. Plus, he didn't even do as good a job as Kerry Collins did with the division-rival Titans, which should have disqualified him from the award immediately. "If the Vikings didn't have AD they would be 2-11 right now." Totally agree. If Brady and Peyton were hurt, their teams would still have enough talent to coast their way to division titles. But if Peterson was hurt, the Vikings would be contending for the #1 overall draft pick, not a low-seed playoff berth. 1418. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's it, I'm gonna go find some face paint and some streamers to tie around my biceps." HaHa! I have a lot of respect for your opinion DSFF and I would really like to have a Top 10 "Worst Winners" drivers list from you, since we're talking about maybe the most awful 2 time winner in Cup history. 1419. BON GORDON posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Omg DaleSrFanForever you need to have Gordon in your Top Ten and higher than tenth. Its absolutely crazy. His stats are crazy good. Yeah from 2008-2012 aren't as good but back pains, family, Jimmie Johnson and Chad Janis not sharing information, and the hatred of the COT all factor in. He's still really good and he's winning again thank goodness. He's having an Earnhardt 96-99 problem but I know Gordon will have one more great season like Earnhardt's 2000 season. 1420. 18fan posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you had to have one active driver to win one race for you, who would it be? For me it would be between Kyle, Tony, Jeff, Jimmie, Brad and maybe Matt Kenseth. 1421. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "the only version of the Ultimate Warrior I remember is the WCW one from 1998 where he showed up at War Games (I think?) in the Cage Match and then had that crappy match with Hulk Hogan at the Halloween show." I remember that match from a hilarious botched spot late in the match. Hogan was going to do the old "paper on fire to the face" spot and attempt to blind Warrior, but f'ed it up and the fire went up in his face. Hogan's had a lot of things blow up in his face over the years, but that time it was literal. "I used to be huge into wrestling, along with auto racing. Somehow, I just lost interest in it around 2005 or so." I've gone into various stages with wrestling. I used to be a huge fan from 2000 to early 2008, then only watched a handful of shows over the next two years, then started to become a fan again in 2010, but have only watched sparingly for about the last year. I actually watched RAW last Monday night for the first time in months, and I was just laughing the whole time. I remember when I was younger when I actually took the shows seriously, but now they're just entertainment for me. "And by the way, if you haven't, go to YouTube and look up Botchamania." I love Botchamania. I've sometimes sat down and watched them during study breaks, and wound up spending several hours watching videos. They remind me that although the WWE sucks nowadays, it's still a lot better managed and worked out than these independent wrestling companies are. All those guys do is do flips, fall through tables, and hit each other over the head with fluorescent light tubes. Yeah that's what I want to do: Make very little money and be in serious pain, then use all my money on painkillers and drugs as a means to cope with the pain. Or as it's also referred to as, "The American Dream". "That's it, I'm gonna go find some face paint and some streamers to tie around my biceps." That could be your next YouTube video. You could start off by looking normal, then go into Ultimate Warrior mode when you see Joey Logano and start going nuts and press slamming various household objects. 1422. 18fan posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, Matt Cassel's 2008 season with the Patriots when he led them to an 11-5 record makes Brady look worse. Peyton is different because that team went 2-14 when he was out for the whole year. This shows how much more valuable Peyton was to the Colts than Brady to the Patriots. Plus Brady won three Super Bowls in his first 4 years as a starter and hasn't won one since. 1423. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you had to have one active driver to win one race for you, who would it be? For me it would be between Kyle, Tony, Jeff, Jimmie, Brad and maybe Matt Kenseth." I would add Denny Hamlin to that list as well, especially after what he did at Loudon this year. Had his team put the proper tire pressures in the car for his qualifying run, he could have led every single lap in that race (excluding laps in between pit stops). I'm not so sure if I would trust Matt enough to win a race, but I know I can count on him to finish in the top ten every race. And I wouldn't put Kyle number one because of how many times he had the best car, but didn't win this past season. My order of trust for these drivers would be Jimmie (when he has the best car), Tony (when his head is on straight), Jeff, Brad, Denny, Matt, Kyle, Jimmie (when he doesn't have the best car), and Tony (when his head is in '04/'06 mode). 1424. JG24FanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sebastian Loeb has retired from full-time WRC competition on 9 consecutive Championship's, leaving John Force's 10 consecutive Championship's between 1993-2002 unmatchable and unbreakable. 1425. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Patriots are only the best team when they are doubted by the media. Mel Kiper foolishly predicted they would go 0-16 in '01, and they rallied behind Brady and went on to end a possible Rams dynasty. Then the media claimed that they hated Bill Belichick after being shutout by the Bills in week 1 of the '03 season, and went on to win the Super Bowl. And then they were constantly being overlooked by the media that focused more on Peyton and the Colts and T.O. and the Eagles, and went on to beat both teams en route to another Super Bowl. I feel that over the past seven years, especially since '07, the Patriots have relapsed and don't feel pressure to win like they used to because now they have accomplished a lot over the last decade. Because of that, I think they are mostly content with winning the division every year and getting beat in the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs every year. I don't think they feel pressure to win because now they are largely successful in the eyes of the media and the public, and thus have no incentive to accomplish anymore in the NFL. Brady and Belichick could never win another playoff game or division title, and they'll still be on the road to the Hall of Fame (probably before Mike Curtis and Jerry Kramer too). 1426. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "ee, I'm way younger, so the only version of the Ultimate Warrior I remember is the WCW one from 1998" Yikes. That comeback was worse than MJ's two year stint with the Wizards. 1427. 18fan posted: 12.11.2012 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, my list wasn't in any particular order. I think I would put Brad #1 right now on that list because the last two years I have lost confidence in Jimmie as he has become more mistake-prone. 1428. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think I would put Brad #1 right now on that list because the last two years I have lost confidence in Jimmie as he has become more mistake-prone." I wouldn't bet against the #48 if it's the best car, because Jimmie is very good at handling pressure when everyone's chasing him, but if he has to work his way through the field (Kansas) or has a struggling race car (Phoenix), I don't trust him to win because in the last two years, he has become very mistake-prone, and I think a lot of that has to do with being out-performed by better drivers like Kurt, Stewart (twice), and Brad. When he's battling a teammate (Jeff, Mark) or against fragile drivers (Carl, Denny, Harvick), he's unstoppable because he knows he has the upper-hand. But when the shoe is on the other foot, it's he who starts to make mistakes, and in the four years when he didn't have the advantage in terms of equipment and mentality, he has been beaten (or beaten himself) every single time. I made an earlier prediction that the #5/24 shop would be the best of the HMS cars in 2013, what with the uncertainties of Junior's health and what looked to be a case of "burn out" within the #48 team, along with Jeff's momentum going into next season and Kasey having a career year. It'll be interesting to see what happens come Chase time, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Gordon is leading the HMS brigade once the Chase starts because he and his team really started to come together during the last half of 2012. 1429. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Plus, at this moment, Brad appears to have the brightest future. Obviouslyy anything can happen in racing and he could fade away and be irrelevent again, but he seems like the surest bet right now to spend the next 10-12 years posting some really good numbers as far as wins and champioonships. 1430. Paul posted: 12.11.2012 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope that Brad can becomes the #1 guy in the sport and is someone for a lot of younger drivers to look up to. When Jeff and Jimmie were on top (especially with Jimmie), drivers would do their best to "act corporate" and be politically correct in their interviews because they were modeling themselves after the drivers on top of the sport. If Brad becomes that #1 guy, and that this 2012 season wasn't just a one-off affair, I have a lot of hope for the future of the sport because a.) the next generation of Cup drivers are already more appealing to me than the current generation, and b.) they would only become more appealing if they modeled themselves after Brad and took on his "Speak your mind, but don't be a dick about it" philosophy. I hope that that's the case because then I'll have a lot to look forward to in the foreseeable future of this sport. I already love the fact that Brad has taken on leadership duties at Penske Racing, even before this year, and I have faith that he can be a leader in NASCAR as a whole as well. 1431. David posted: 12.11.2012 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeez almighty Brad, what were you thinking?" He was thinking, "Hey, Joey is a lousy driver, so if he is my teammate, I can have all of the success, and a higher percentage of my team's wins, top fives, and top tens, and that way I will look so much better historically to people because my teammate makes the Penske equipment look worse than it is". 1432. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.11.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually David, if Brad were to outperform a really talented teammate, that would help him a lot more historically. Him out-winning and out-pointing Kurt Busch in '11 was a huge feather in his cap. Well, maybe not "huge", Kurt's antics had long since worn down those at Penske that has to deal with him for 6 years. That #22 team was a mess internally. But he was still Kurt Busch and had the talent to win any given week in good equipment as evidenced by his somewhat unexpected wins at Sears Point and Dover. That is why I am so high on Jimmie. It is actually, in an odd way, a compliment to Jeff. For Jimmie to step into the same shop as Jeff Freaking Gordon and do what he has done says a lot. If he were just outperforming some scrub I wouldn't care. Do you ever see me bragging about Dale outperforming Mike Skinner? Look, I am sorry for the dissent my rankings have caused. Trust me, I didn't rank Jeff at #11 just to mess with Rainbow Nation. If I wanted to do that, there are plenty of photos online of him with his wife at Halloween parties in Manhattan or Hollywood that would do nicely. Or I could post his media guide picture from 1993. I just couldn't bring myself to put any of my Top 10 behind him. It is tough ranking drivers over a 60 year history with so many distinct eras. Looking through all of NASCAR's history, there are so many hidden treasures. Herb Thomas is one that slipped through the cracks of time and his career was beyond exceptional. Red Byron is though of as "The Guy Who Won The First Martinsville Race Which Was Non Sanctioned At The Time". As it turns out, he is a legitimate war hero who was badly wounded in battle, came home, dominated the unsanctioned modified races, then won NASCAR's first two championships. Bobby Isaac was the dude who quit cause he heard voices at Talladega. I have him in my Top 25 cause he was that good. Fireball Roberts was the exciting go or blow guy who never won a championship cause he wouldn't take it easy. As it turns out, he never tried to run for the title (which meant very little at the time) and instead focused on winning the big races, winning all of them except the World 600, and putting together a hell of a career while driving balls to the wall, Earnhardt before Earnhardt. I wish I hadn't have even tried to rank them. Jeff Gordon is a legend and it had been an honor to have watched him compete, even if almost all of his wins gave me nausea. It is no disrespect that I am trying to convey. Rather, an appreciation for the ten I listed before him. And my "downplaying" of his mind boggling numbers were an attempt to explain why I think those with lesser stats are more impressive due to their circumstances. Believe me, one day I will be telling my kids and grandkids "I was at Martinsville one time and Jeff fell down 3 laps early, made them all up the hard way, and won the whole damn race." Or "one time I was at Charlotte on a dreadfully chilly night cause NASCAR thought it was a good idea to hold races at night there when it famously gets cold at night around that time of year, and Jeff Gordon had the entire back of his car knocked off by Rusty Wallace, fell down 2 laps, but came back and finished 2nd to Jimmie Johnson who was in the middle of a 27 race winning streak at Charlotte (or at least that is what it felt like at the time)". 1433. 18fan posted: 12.12.2012 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, all the stuff you talked about regarding how hard it is to rank the greatest drivers of all time is exactly why I don't even try to rank the greatest drivers in any order. I think the best way to rank drivers is by the greatest of an "era", but even that is difficult because of many factors. 1434. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well said, DSFF. Well said. Don't forget to tell your kids and grandkids about his the way that Jeff held off the five-time defending champion at Atlanta to claim his 85th career win, his "Comeback of the Year" performance at Richmond to make it into the Chase, or his unbelievable run of 19 top five finishes in the final 20 races of 1998 either. Just keepin' it real haha. By the way, don't ever say that you wished you hadn't typed something up on here again. We can't hate you just because we have different beliefs on where Jeff ranks historically, and you shouldn't have try to hide your beliefs just because we may disagree with you. I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't let our difference in opinions affect the way I think about you. I still think you're a swell guy who loves racing maybe more than anybody else on this board. Don't ever think that you can't speak out about your beliefs, whether it be about Gordon or any other driver, on this board just because a few people might take it personally. I guess I can't complain about which 10 drivers you ranked ahead of Jeff because all 10 of them are great in their own ways. Herb Thomas and Lee Petty dominated NASCAR in the '50s when it was difficult just to make it to the track every week. Jimmie Johnson has 5 championships and for several years was unstoppable on the track. Dale and Richard Petty...I mean words can't describe how legendary they were on the track. I would have ranked Gordon at least in the top 10, but I can understand why you would think that there are 10 NASCAR drivers that were better than him. And hey, 11th isn't so bad, but "Top Ten" just sounds so much better. 1435. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm with 18fan. All I can say about my unofficial list is that I have Richard Petty in 1st, Dale Earnhardt in 2nd, and then from there it's just sort of a range. So for example, I have Jeff in the 5th-8th place range along with Waltrip, Johnson, and Cale. Also, don't anyone feel bad about having their top ten list be criticized by others. The NFL Top Ten list may be the greatest top ten list series of all-time, and yet throughout the show the people on it are critiquing the order of the players/coaches/moments on the list. I think that adds credibility to the list. If it's a list that everybody agrees with, such as the top ten show on SPEED where everybody on the show utters the same tune to the point where it feels like they're all simultaneously stroking the people who created the list, it becomes nauseating to watch. At least if there's an openness for a debate, such as the NFL Top Ten show or some of the lists made on this site, the list becomes credible because we don't all just agree with each other. As cool as that sounds in theory, to have everyone agree with you, that sounds awfully boring to me. If that were the case, then this page would have about 500 fewer comments than it has because there would be no "Gordon/Johnson" debate or "Gordon: Top Ten or No Top Ten" debate. It think it's far more fun this way. 1436. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right on 18Fan. The worst part about making a list is that whenever it is done you look at it and immediately start second guessing it. Trust me, I saw Jeff at #11 and thought "Eleven? No way!". But then I looked at hose before and decided "Yeah, eleven. Wait, he has to be higher than eleven. But who should I push out? Can't think of one. F**k". It is a nowhere road. Besides, outside of The Holy Trinity of Earnhardt, Petty, and Pearson, you can throw a blanket over 4 through 12. Bobby, Lee, Cale, Herb, Darrell, Junior, Jimmie, Gordon, Fireball, they are all really really really damn good. An argument can be made for any situation. Except Adrian Peterson winning the 2012 NFL MVP. So no more lists from me. Except for this one. It is now 12/12/12. In honor of that, I will rank the 12 best drivers ever to drive the #12 in the Cup Series for more than 1 start (this eliminates David Pearson, Davey Allison, and Mark Martin). Their ranking doesn't reflect their performances while in the #12 1) Bobby Allison (not only is he the best to drive the #12, he made the #12 look damn good) 2) Joe Weatherly 3) Brad Keselowski (I know his year in the #12 really sucked) 4) Harry Gant 5) Neil Bonnett 6) Time Richmond 7) LeeRoy Yarbrough 8) Buddy Baker 9) Dan Gurney 10) Jim Paschal 11) Donnie Allison 12) Tiny Lund 1437. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well said, DSFF. Well said. Don't forget to tell your kids and grandkids about his the way that Jeff held off the five-time defending champion at Atlanta to claim his 85th career win, his "Comeback of the Year" performance at Richmond to make it into the Chase" I wasn't at those races. The two I mentioned I was actually at. 1438. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I wasn't at those races. The two I mentioned I was actually at." I know, but it's still something you can share regardless. 1439. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 3:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that's why I added "Just keepin' it real haha." at the end of that paragraph about three legendary Gordon moments. Maybe you didn't catch that part, but that first paragraph wasn't meant to be taken seriously. 1440. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, don't forget the pile-drivers and the figure-4s. I think the worst 2-time winner is Dope Cope personally... So Paul, you respect DSFF for sharing his opinion, but you tell me I'm not worthy of respect for sharing mine? Um... OK... 1441. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So Paul, you respect DSFF for sharing his opinion, but you tell me I'm not worthy of respect for sharing mine? Um... OK..." When did I ever say you weren't worthy of respect? If I'm thinking of the same post that you are referring to, all I said was that I thought it was unacceptable for you to put the likes of Gordon, Earnhardt, and Johnson in the same tier as winless drivers like G.C. Spencer, Neil Castles, and John Sears when you were listing the most talented drivers in NASCAR history. And that was before I knew that that was the criteria by which you were listing those drivers. I never mentioned anything about respecting or not respecting you in any of my posts, and I would like to know why you came to that conclusion. 1442. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 10:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My apologies Paul because I read too far into something that wasn't there. 1443. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 10:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It is tough ranking drivers over a 60 year history with so many distinct eras. Looking through all of NASCAR's history, there are so many hidden treasures. Herb Thomas is one that slipped through the cracks of time and his career was beyond exceptional. Red Byron is though of as "The Guy Who Won The First Martinsville Race Which Was Non Sanctioned At The Time". As it turns out, he is a legitimate war hero who was badly wounded in battle, came home, dominated the unsanctioned modified races, then won NASCAR's first two championships. Bobby Isaac was the dude who quit cause he heard voices at Talladega. I have him in my Top 25 cause he was that good. Fireball Roberts was the exciting go or blow guy who never won a championship cause he wouldn't take it easy. As it turns out, he never tried to run for the title (which meant very little at the time) and instead focused on winning the big races, winning all of them except the World 600, and putting together a hell of a career while driving balls to the wall, Earnhardt before Earnhardt." "DSFF, all the stuff you talked about regarding how hard it is to rank the greatest drivers of all time is exactly why I don't even try to rank the greatest drivers in any order. I think the best way to rank drivers is by the greatest of an "era", but even that is difficult because of many factors." "Well said, DSFF. Well said. Don't forget to tell your kids and grandkids about his the way that Jeff held off the five-time defending champion at Atlanta to claim his 85th career win, his "Comeback of the Year" performance at Richmond to make it into the Chase, or his unbelievable run of 19 top five finishes in the final 20 races of 1998 either. Just keepin' it real haha. By the way, don't ever say that you wished you hadn't typed something up on here again. We can't hate you just because we have different beliefs on where Jeff ranks historically, and you shouldn't have try to hide your beliefs just because we may disagree with you. I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't let our difference in opinions affect the way I think about you. I still think you're a swell guy who loves racing maybe more than anybody else on this board. Don't ever think that you can't speak out about your beliefs, whether it be about Gordon or any other driver, on this board just because a few people might take it personally. I guess I can't complain about which 10 drivers you ranked ahead of Jeff because all 10 of them are great in their own ways. Herb Thomas and Lee Petty dominated NASCAR in the '50s when it was difficult just to make it to the track every week. Jimmie Johnson has 5 championships and for several years was unstoppable on the track. Dale and Richard Petty...I mean words can't describe how legendary they were on the track. I would have ranked Gordon at least in the top 10, but I can understand why you would think that there are 10 NASCAR drivers that were better than him. And hey, 11th isn't so bad, but "Top Ten" just sounds so much better." "I'm with 18fan. All I can say about my unofficial list is that I have Richard Petty in 1st, Dale Earnhardt in 2nd, and then from there it's just sort of a range. So for example, I have Jeff in the 5th-8th place range along with Waltrip, Johnson, and Cale. Also, don't anyone feel bad about having their top ten list be criticized by others. The NFL Top Ten list may be the greatest top ten list series of all-time, and yet throughout the show the people on it are critiquing the order of the players/coaches/moments on the list. I think that adds credibility to the list. If it's a list that everybody agrees with, such as the top ten show on SPEED where everybody on the show utters the same tune to the point where it feels like they're all simultaneously stroking the people who created the list, it becomes nauseating to watch. At least if there's an openness for a debate, such as the NFL Top Ten show or some of the lists made on this site, the list becomes credible because we don't all just agree with each other. As cool as that sounds in theory, to have everyone agree with you, that sounds awfully boring to me. If that were the case, then this page would have about 500 fewer comments than it has because there would be no "Gordon/Johnson" debate or "Gordon: Top Ten or No Top Ten" debate. It think it's far more fun this way." "Right on 18Fan. The worst part about making a list is that whenever it is done you look at it and immediately start second guessing it. Trust me, I saw Jeff at #11 and thought "Eleven? No way!". But then I looked at hose before and decided "Yeah, eleven. Wait, he has to be higher than eleven. But who should I push out? Can't think of one. F**k". It is a nowhere road. Besides, outside of The Holy Trinity of Earnhardt, Petty, and Pearson, you can throw a blanket over 4 through 12. Bobby, Lee, Cale, Herb, Darrell, Junior, Jimmie, Gordon, Fireball, they are all really really really damn good. An argument can be made for any situation. Except Adrian Peterson winning the 2012 NFL MVP. So no more lists from me." I second all of the above. "I wish I hadn't have even tried to rank them." Don't be sorry. Ever. 1444. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you made a pretty darned good list. Webmaster, when's my blog going to show up? 1445. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is now 12:12:12 on December 12, 2012 (12/12/12). The next time this will happen will be 1:01:01 on January 1, 2101. Appreciate this second, because we will never see one like it again... 1446. Scott B posted: 12.12.2012 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me pose a different question here. What Cup driver, from any era, do you consider the most underrated/overlooked in terms of raw talent when people make their "best" lists? One that comes to mind to me is Billy Wade. He seemed to have a really bright future before his death at a Daytona tire test. His name is seldom mentioned, though other drivers with shortened careers such as Tim Richmond often do make people's lists. Thoughts? 1447. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course, that was the time here in the Central Time Zone. 1448. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 12.12.2012 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to put some predictions in. Just want to say that I love the discussions and debates on this site and find it far more more informative and genuine that on the more main-stream sites e.g. nascar.com and fox. The debates and arguements are especially beneficial for me, from Ireland and a recent fan mid 2009. DSFF dont worry about Brad Keselowski's new scheme it looks brillaint on track. My predictions CWTS. Winner Ty Dillon from Jay Coulson. Nationwide. Brian Vickers from Regan Smith Daytona winner Tony Stewart. Cup Jimmie Johnson from Carl Edwards Daytona winner A ford or Dale JR 1449. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 12.12.2012 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just a few observations I want to make about the recent debates about Gordon Johnson and the best driver debate. You must remember the timescale of each drivers career. For example Johnson has "only" completed 11 seasons and 400 races when the majority of the drivers he is linked with have for the most part made 560 starts e.g. Yarborough. Think about this Gordon 10 years ago would probably have been ranked in the top 7 or so by all, including DSFF and would have been considered a near cert to challenge for a top 3 spot by achieving 100+ wins and 7 or 8 championships. The same thing could still happen to Johnson in his later career. If Gordon had retired after 2007 or 2008 would he be ranked higher having had a great 2007 season. For example DSFF would you think about removing Johnson from the top 10 of your list in 5 years time if he does not add to his championship tally. Johnson will probably not achieve anywhere near as many top5s as Gordon currently has, the same goes for poles and probably wins. 1450. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 12.12.2012 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also wante dto add a bit about Johnson getting to 100 wins and 8 championships. People mentioning Johnson and the runner up curse, He finished second in 03 and 04 and chellenged for the title the following season. Also by most people's logic Johnson should have had the curse in 06 as he had been second going into the 2005 finale and had a bad finish which relegate dhim to fifth. Biffle and EDwards who came joint second had the down year while Johnson went on to win the title. By this logic Bowyer does have the "curse" and not Johnson. People have noted the apparent tension growing between Johnson and Knaus in the last 18 months or so but if they had one the title this year no one would even be mentioning this and the Emotional Juggernaut LOVE THAT DSFF by the way, would be still on course to cover nascar in its cloud of doom. People try to look into these things too much and come up with absolute judgements. Johnson needs to win 1 of the next 2 titles in my opinion to surpass or reach 7 championships in my opinion.It is unlikely he will win 3 in his forties. Everone will now see Johnson and Knaus as beateble, especially since they were beaten straight up this time, if they dont win next year they will have lost the unbeatable aura for good in my opinion. Johnson will not reach 100 wins as for as I am concerned. As notd by DSFF and others Johnson has never really gone on an absolute tear like Gordon,Waltrip, Petty etc.Having been in the prime of his career he averages 5.5 wins a year. 100 wins requires an average of 5 wins a year over 20 years. He is just above it and only a little over half way there. One must account for a few down years eventually which will kill off his charge even if it comes in his 17th season.Johnson has no margin for error to get 100 and will probably require another 10 win season possibly 12 in a year int he next 2 or 3 years for 100 to even become a possibility. Gordon had more wins was further along and younger than Johnson at this stage and yet 2 years pretty much eliminated him. See 2008 and 2009 after 2007. And most importantly of all Johnson will eventually part with Knaus, will his replacement be able to help him to the 20 wins (best case scanario) or 35 wins worst case scenario required. Finally I think Ron Malec will replace Knaus and do a good job see 2007 when he filled in- solid job top 5 potential in each of 4 races. Also Johnson had a stellar start with Grubb. 1451. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2012 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What Cup driver, from any era, do you consider the most underrated/overlooked in terms of raw talent when people make their "best" lists?" Hard to say cause I have only got to watch NASCAR from 1990 to present. Judging raw talent is something you have to watch. I guess the one that comes to mind might seem like an obvious choice, and that is Ernie Irvan. He was a wheelman. He drove that #4 car to places it had no business being. Of course he would often try to hard, and cause a spectacular crash that took himself and about 10 other cars out with him (Talladega and Pocono '91 come to mind). But the fact is he could drive the piss out of a race car. I think he is underrated in this department because people discuss his crashes more than anything. Just know he passed the eye test. As in, when at a race, I couldn't take my eyes off him. HE was out of control in every single corner and usually brought it in. Now as far as overlooked, underrated, slipped through the cracks of time in an overall sense, I have come to the conclusion that Herb Thomas is an absolute lost treasure of NASCAR. There are others that are overlooked, and I might make a list (not a ranked list, but a list) sometime of underrated NASCAR drivers throughout its history (with Matt Kenseth leading the way of current drivers). Its funny though. During NASCAR's 50th anniversary celebration, some panel decided the driver of each decade. And they had Herb as the driver of the 50s. So somebody at some point was paying attention. Then they had Richard Petty for the 60s, Cale Yarborough for the 70s, Darrell Waltrip for the 80s, and Dale for the 90s. This is where NASCAR's history is kinda odd. It seems like dynasties start in the middle part of decades, and spill over to the middle part of the next decade. The King was the ruler of the sport from the mid 60s to mid 70s. The Junior Johnson driver of Cale and Darrell had a stranglehold on the sport from the mid 70s to the mid 80s. Dale Earnhardt took that crown from the mid 80s through the mid 90s, and Gordon was far and away the best from the mid 90s to the mid 00s. Then you had Jimmie take over from the mid 00s to present. Is it time for a new top gun to take over? Brad? Can Kyle or Denny ever get their heads on straight and take it? Will Kasey Kahne continue the HMS domination that has defined the past 20 years and make it 30? Can Carl finally put an end to the sharp ups and downs that have defined his short career and make it all good? I just have a feeling the 48 team is about to go through some serious flux. Even getting beat by Brad this year, being in title contention for the 8th time in 9 seasons still give them the Dominator crown. But will it last? 1452. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF, don't forget the pile-drivers and the figure-4s." We are talking about The ultimate Warrior. That stuff is way too technical for him. "DSFF dont worry about Brad Keselowski's new scheme it looks brillaint on track." Yeah, it is growing on me. I just loved that bright blue and gold combo. But the new one is good too. "Appreciate this second, because we will never see one like it again... " Hey now, medicine is improving every day and life spans are getting longer and longer. If I can live to be 115 years and 9 months, I can see it, and most of you are younger than me. We could see it. Except Spen. He is an old fart, he won't make it :) "For example DSFF would you think about removing Johnson from the top 10 of your list in 5 years time if he does not add to his championship tally." Actually yes. It depends on the circumstances though. If there is no obvious reason as to why he suddenly quits producing (injuries, HMS losing its edge which is extremely unlikely, etc) then he will be viewed differently. Especially if Kasey Kahne starts outperforming him in the same equipment and/or if Jeff really takes it to him in his final years. Btw, here is a reason for Rainbow Nation to be excited for 2013 that nobody seems to be talking about. Jeff will be the villain again for 2013. He has never come right out and said it because that would go against Jeff Gordon The Brand, but he enjoys playing the role of the villain and thrives when the world is against him. When fans had already bot sick of him winning so much by 1996 and were openly hoping for his winning ways to come to an end, he just kept winning at an even higher rate and basically camped out in victory lane for the next 3 years. When he won his first race of '04 at Talladega and got pelted by a shower of Budweiser cans cause he beat Dale Jr back to the timing line, he went on to have a spectacular year after '02 and '03 where he looked kinda pedestrian at times. And 2007 which saw him passing Dale on the wins list, on his birthday at his best track no less, he was very much disliked for this and he forgot how to finish out of the Top 5 until the last 5 races. And this year the karma gods absolutely had it out for him from day one (the flip in the Shootout followed by his motor grenading in the 500). He could sense the planet alignment was dead set against him. The second half of the Richmond race was Jeff basically giving the racing gods a huge middle finger. Now, after The Great Phoenix Incident of Twenty Twelve, and NASCAR's tiny little tap on the wrist penalty, then them giving him The Myers Brothers award which is a humanitarian award, he is probably the #1 bad guy entering the season. Hell, the Homestead race even had the BSPN commentators openly hoping for Clint Bowyer to catch him and retaliate. Let's face it, the Kyle Busch Hate Train is old news. Every year he shows his ass and we hope for an epic public meltdown from him, and he gives us what we want EVERY SINGLE YEAR! We are bored with watching hating Kyle cause he falls on his face every year. Kurt is officially in "who cares?" territory. The 48 team just got undressed by the 2 team at their own game. The world is against Jeff again. So look out! 1453. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Brad being someone who can lead and dominate this sport for quite a while. Not only is he extremely talented, but he can stand pressure better than any young driver in the sport, doesn't make mistakes, is starting to become a contender on every track type (he used to suck on road courses, now he's on the brink of winning one of them), and has that "refuse to lose" attitude that I believe is key to dominating an era. I see Jimmie having a "down year" in 2013, and by that I mean 1-3 wins and a 4th-8th place points finish, but I'm sure he'll be back to championship form by 2014. I can see Carl or Denny giving Brad serious runs for the championship, and I wouldn't be surprised if Carl is the next first-time champion (and judging by his career arcs, I predict he will seriously contend for the 2014 championship). I just don't see Kyle pulling off a championship because I don't think he is capable of winning the championship following the points reset, and I think he would be better off in a pre-Chase championship format so that he can build a big lead and then just coast the rest of the way, rather than worry about everyone gaining ground from the reset. As for Kasey, I just don't think he has what it takes to win a championship. He reminds me of a less-versatile Terry Labonte, and Terry only won 2 championships because of his versatility. And who knows, maybe Gordon can put together a complete season and become a serious contender. I already think he is in the best position out of the four HMS drivers as he and his team were really coming along in the second half of 2012, and don't have the pressure put on them that the #48 and (to a lesser extent) #88 teams have. If Gordon becomes a serious title contender again and has to face Brad for the championship, either way I see their legacies growing from that championship battle. If Gordon wins, he becomes a 5-time champion and beat the best driver in the sport right now, and if he loses, then at least he proved that at 42 years old with previous back injuries that he can still go with the younger drivers. If Brad wins, obviously he becomes a 2-time champion and beat drivers with 9 championships between them, and if he loses, then at least he lost to one of the all-time greats in any discipline of racing. I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a great championship battle to me. Will it happen? Probably not, but it sure sounds like a great championship battle on paper. The previous generation's "Refuse to Lose" driver vs. the current generation's "Refuse to Lose" driver. Neither driver makes foolish mistakes and often times lets their competition beat themselves, thus the winner would probably just have to straight up beat their opponent. It's too bad NASCAR isn't completely like pro wrestling (or is it?) because I would book that championship battle in a heartbeat. 1454. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope that's the case DSFF. I was getting tired of the "sympathetic" Jeff Gordon from '08-Phoenix '12 anyways. It was too bland and there was no edge to him. I remember at Texas (or maybe it was Charlotte, idk) when he was running 15th and I just didn't care because I knew that that was all he was going to do. As embarrassed as I was about how the Phoenix incident played out, I was also proud of him for standing up for himself and basically saying to Clint "That's it, you're done" because it showed that the fire isn't completely out of him yet. As crazy as this sounds, and some of you may not believe me because I didn't post it on this page, but I just had this gut feeling that he was going to win at Homestead and race his way into the top 10 in points. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened. Granted, he needed the #48 team to screw up on their pit stop and shortly after fall out of the race, but he won the race anyways. I see that fire inside him still burning next season, as I believe he will be the best HMS driver in 2013. And this hatred for Gordon brings up a good point. Is anybody more loved AND hated in NASCAR than Jeff Gordon? I honestly don't think there is, which is why I consider Gordon to be the Hulk Hogan of NASCAR. Nobody could portray being both the good guy and the bad guy better than Hogan could, and I think Jeff fits that bill perfectly. There are a lot of other drivers that kind of fit the bad guy role, but none of them are quite like Jeff in playing the role of the heel. With others like Kyle, Denny, and Kevin, they mostly have "go-away heat", in that it's not that we don't want to see them win, we just don't want to see them. Period. But with Jeff, the people that dislike him don't necessarily want him to go away, they want to see him beaten on the race track, and that I think is a much better form of heat. Plus, I think it's fun to be the bad guy on the track. I'll always remember the way that Earnhardt was smiling after being greeted with a chorus of boos following his win at Bristol '99, because deep down he always preferred to be the bad guy. When you're the good guy, you have to act a certain way and drive a certain way because you have an image and reputation to uphold. When you're the bad guy, you just have to go out and win, and let the fans say what they want to say. So in a way, it's far more easier to be the bad guy than it is the good guy, and the results are often better as well. 1455. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.12.2012 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " none of them are quite like Jeff in playing the role of the heel." That's because to be a true heel, you have to be able to win and win big. That is what made Darrell so great at it, that is what made Dale so great at it, and that is what makes Jeff great at it. You can only be truly hated if everyone knows you could easily roll off a run and take home the important hardware and smile the whole time while everyone is booing their guts out (Bristol '99, Homestead '12). Part of me feels like, to truly become the heel again, Jeff would have made a bigger splash by dumping Denny to win Atlanta. That Phoenix deal was pretty extreme. Of course that would have robbed us of Epic Kyle Meltdown (I've already lost track of the numbers): Wonderboy vs Rowdy. Plus, had he dumped Denny Hamlin, he might have won most popular driver for this year. Here is what he needs to do: if he ever gets a chance to wreck Dale Jr to win a race DO IT! DO IT, JEFF, DO IT! He would become NASCAR's version of late '96/early '97 Stone Cold Steve Austin. Yeah, we are supposed to hate you for what you have done to Bret Hart/Dale Jr, but why exactly do we like those guys again? 1456. Sean posted: 12.12.2012 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What Cup driver, from any era, do you consider the most underrated/overlooked in terms of raw talent when people make their "best" lists?" I haven't seen all these drivers race, but: Billy Wade - good choice. Probably the ultimate "what could have been" choice. Fonty Flock - overshadowed by his brother even though they did post comparable stats at times (most of us listed him regardless) Every major non-champion of the '80s/'90s except Mark Martin and Davey Allison - I'm not against celebrating Martin or Davey's talent. I'm against Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, Harry Gant, Neil Bonnett, and Ricky Rudd being ignored and most of them are even though they were all in the same general tier (and better than some champions). I saw more natural talent out of every one of those drivers than I did out of Jarrett, B. Labonte, or Kenseth. I left Tim Richmond off because he isn't ignored. Well, he's ignored by NASCAR but is now hyped on every fan site in response to the point where he isn't as underrated as the others. Morgan Shepherd - did better in the #15 than Geoff Bodine and did better in the #21 than Dale Jarrett Greg Biffle - I do happen to think he has a lot of natural talent but Martin, Kenseth, and Edwards have been Roush's favorites and he's constantly out of the loop. Feels like the kind of guy that's just going to be ignored a la Gant while flashier drivers like Harvick will be remembered far longer and unjustifiably. Note: I am not saying Biffle is as good as Gant. Dick Hutcherson - His career averages/percentage statistics are better than almost any other non-champion. Most of the independents of the '60s, especially James Hylton, Elmo Langley, and Wendell Scott - I haven't seen them race but if they were able to win in underfunded equipment, I give them major props. I wouldn't rate any of them as top 50 drivers, but I'm glad NicoRosbergFan did. Dave Marcis - people don't notice how respectable he was in the '70s (instead noticing even though he actually finished higher in points for Rod Osterlund in '78 than Earnhardt did as a rookie the following season. Bobby Hamilton - scored the last wins for 3 of his 4 teams and was astoundingly dominant at Martinsville for mid-pack teams. His points positions were unreal especially 1998 when he improved the #4 team from 25th in points with Marlin to TENTH, and he wasn't far behind Earnhardt. John Andretti - Also greatly achieved for the #43 winning at Martinsville and got the only win for Cale Yarborough's team and the last win for Petty Enterprises (I do not consider RPM to be a continuation). He also scored the only win for legendary car owner Jim Hall (creator of the Chapparal chassis) between Johnny Rutherford in 1980 and Gil de Ferran in 1995, both of whom were Indy 500 winners, although Hall wasn't active for many of the seasons in between. ALSO made it to the finals in an NHRA Top Fuel event and won a 24 Hours of Daytona very early in his career. People go on and on and on about Tony Stewart and Robby Gordon's versatility jumping from car to car, and there's seriously a case that Andretti is more versatile, but he gets sold short both in evaluating his NASCAR and CART careers. How did he never get a Penske/Newman-Haas/Ganassi CART ride or a Hendrick/Roush/Gibbs Cup ride, while Marco has had top-notch equipment his entire career? MANY of the '90s non-winners in underfunded equipment, especially Dick Trickle and Hut Stricklin. Few of these drivers were close to top 50 (although Trickle would have been had he actually started in Cup in the '70s when he was younger). I still don't think Stricklin was as good as Davey (at least in Cup) but I DO respect his talent. From the current era, Denny Hamlin - I'm serious. I don't like him any more than anyone else does but it seems people and the media in general just overlook him relative to overhyped drivers like Junior, Edwards, Harvick, the Busch brothers, etc... and he gets lost in the shuffle when he has been a more consistent performer than anyone except Johnson since he started (look at who HASN'T made every chase when he has). He dominates on short tracks almost like he's Rusty and gets very little credit for it. He doesn't seem to be a favorite of either the media or the fans, and I don't like him either, but considering how much Kyle is hyped as a mega-talent and Denny has generally owned Kyle and gets talked about far less, it's bizarre... 1457. Sean posted: 12.12.2012 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgot to mention what impresses me most about Hut Stricklin. He managed to improve on what Jeff Burton did in the #8 Stavola Brothers car. Burton had finished THIRTY-SECOND in points in '95 and Stricklin finished 22nd (I think) in '96 even fighting for the win in the Southern 500, when Burton was largely a moving chicane in the #8. And people wonder why I'm not impressed by Burton? 1458. Sean posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Marcis - people don't notice how respectable he was in the '70s (instead noticing his long miserable career as an owner-driver) even though he actually finished higher in points for Rod Osterlund in '78 than Earnhardt did as a rookie the following season. I realized I didn't finish my parenthetical clause so it was confusing... 1459. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey now, medicine is improving every day and life spans are getting longer and longer. If I can live to be 115 years and 9 months, I can see it, and most of you are younger than me. We could see it. Except Spen. He is an old fart, he won't make it :)" That is if the world doesn't destroy itself in nuclear war. As for your life span remark, I think that I may be the youngest person on this board. Although some people's comments look like they were typed by a fifth-grader with TCC (Texting Compulsion Complex). 1460. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Of course that would have robbed us of Epic Kyle Meltdown" It was totally worth seeing Denny beat Jeff at Atlanta just to see Kyle Busch's reaction after Richmond. I'm still surprised that Dave Rogers will remain as Kyle's crew chief considering all the verbal abuse he took from Kyle this past year. I still think that Rogers would work better with the calmer Matt Kenseth, but whatever. "Here is what he needs to do: if he ever gets a chance to wreck Dale Jr to win a race DO IT! DO IT, JEFF, DO IT!" Hmmm...I take it that you would be in favor of this lol. I say that if Junior performs a slide job on him again like he did at Michigan this year, Jeff won't be as kind as he was last time. "He would become NASCAR's version of late '96/early '97 Stone Cold Steve Austin." I always liked Steve Austin because he was just a badass surly redneck who kicked ass first and asked questions later, and is pretty much the Dale Earnhardt of pro wrestling. In late '96/early '97, Austin was sort of like the late '70s/early '80s Dale Earnhardt because neither were established stars at the time. Then Austin became a good guy and went on to beat the "Heartbreak Kid" at Wrestlemania, somewhat like how Earnhardt beat up on the former champion Darrell Waltrip in '86, and his legend just took off from there. It's a shame that Austin's career ended so soon due to neck injuries because that is one legend that could have grown infinitely. "Yeah, we are supposed to hate you for what you have done to Bret Hart/Dale Jr, but why exactly do we like those guys again?" That's one of life's many mysteries. I tried really hard to like Bret Hart, but there are just too many things about him that are unlikable. He acts as though he is the greatest wrestler that ever lived, yet he couldn't draw money when he was the top star. It wasn't until he left and Austin became the top star that WWE started to make A LOT of money. Bret only had three meaningful feuds in wrestling, and they were all against guys who were better and more likable than him: Owen Hart (his younger, more talented brother), Shawn Michaels (although most of this was behind-the-scenes), and Steve Austin (the only feud that drew money in '97). For him to still be talking about the "Montreal Screwjob" 15 years later is pretty sad. Just forget about it and move on with your life. As for Junior, the fact that he is still relevant after six seasons without a top five points finish is an art form in and of itself. I've actually never met a Junior fan in my life. I've met Gordon fans, Johnson fans, Busch fans (both of them), Labonte fans, and Earnhardt fans, but I've never met a Junior fan. Where do these people come from?! I don't care what the NASCAR paparazzi says, if Gordon (or anybody for that matter) were to wreck Dale Jr., I think a lot of fans would cheer. Maybe not the masses, but I certainly think Gordon would gain some fans/respect from a lot of race fans who have grown tired of Junior. 1461. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So in a way, it's far more easier to be the bad guy than it is the good guy, and the results are often better as well." Richard Petty was the good guy (most of the time) and, well, look how he turned out. "Dick Hutcherson - His career averages/percentage statistics are better than almost any other non-champion." That's because he was King of the Dirt. "Dave Marcis - people don't notice how respectable he was in the '70s (instead noticing his long miserable career as an owner-driver) even though he actually finished higher in points for Rod Osterlund in '78 than Earnhardt did as a rookie the following season." A Dale Sr. fan will be quick to point out that Earnhardt missed four races in 1979. His theoretical points total through 31 races that year would have been 4304, which would have placed him fifth. 1462. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Webmaster: Where's my blog post?!?! 1463. webmaster posted: 12.12.2012 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan: There are no blogs pending; you'll need to submit it again. 1464. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh no! I spent an hour on that and wrote it directly into the type entry. 1465. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone else notice that if Jeff hadn't gotten the point penalty he'd have been 7th in points? 1466. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To the above post: Yes. What of it? 1467. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, it was just an odd fact. Shows that crime doesn't pay. 1468. Paul posted: 12.12.2012 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Shows that crime doesn't pay." Well, he did win the next week in his first race as a "heel", so getting penalized wasn't a total waste on his part. Chances are he wouldn't have won at Homestead had he not been motivated by what transpired at Phoenix. 1469. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) True. It's a shame your blog post was lost, NRF. I would have liked to have read something you spent an hour working on. 1470. David posted: 12.12.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did you hear about the fire at the shoe factory?" "No! I'll bet some heel started it!" "It was terrible!" "What happened??" "Two thousand *soles* were lost!!" 1471. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.12.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ *drumroll* 1472. 18fan posted: 12.12.2012 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've asked similar questions in the past, but this one is more vague: Who do you think is the best active driver on each type of track? That would be short track, flat track (Phoenix, New Hampshire, Pocono, Indy), oddball (Dover, Darlington), intermediate, restrictor plate, and road course. For me, short track is a bit of a toss-up because there are several great short track drivers: Clint, Kyle, Jeff, Jimmie, Denny, and Brad immediately come to my mind. Flat track to me is a no-brainer. Denny Hamlin is the flat track master (I know he hasn't won at Indy, but look at his record at Phoenix, New Hampshire, and Pocono). Road Course to me varies by track. I don't think Ambrose is nearly as dominant at Watkins Glen as other people do, considering it took Kyle screwing up on a restart and the oil this year for him to win since he was being outrun both times. I still think he is the best road racer, but he's not head and shoulders above everyone else. Intermediate and plate races vary every year based on equipment, so those are hard to judge. I will say Jimmie for intermediate and I will also declare plate racing a toss-up, although Jaime McMurray should be near the top of any list of restrictor plate racers (He is a much better plate racer than the "great drafter" Michael Waltrip, although Michael can still get it done at Talladega) 1473. MStall41 posted: 12.12.2012 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Best Plate Racers: 1. Tony Stewart 2. Jamie McMurray 3. Kevin Harvick 4. Dale Jr. 5. Matt Kenseth 6. Kyle Busch 7. Brad Keselowski 8. David Ragan (Dead friggin serious) 9. Jeff Gordon (solely based on his pre-2008 plate stats) 10. Clint Bowyer 1474. BON GORDON posted: 12.13.2012 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JEFF GORDON NASCAR SPRINT CUP STATS 2008-2012: WINS- 6: T12 (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-27) SECOND PLACE FINISHES- 18: 2ND (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-22) TOP 5- 64: 2ND (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-80) TOP 10- 97: 3RD (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-114) POLES- 9: T4TH (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-16) LAPS LED- 3,683: 4TH (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-8,371) AVG. FINISH- 13.05: 5TH (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-11.37) AVG. POINT FINISH: 7.4: NOT SURE WHERE GORDON IS RANKED, DIDN 'T WANNA DO THE MATH (LEADER: JIMMIE JOHNSON-2.4) GORDON IS STILL REALLY GOOD. NOT 90'S GOOD BUT STILL A TOP DRIVER. NEEDS TO WIN MORE AND FINISH HIGHER IN THE POINTS. 1475. Paul posted: 12.13.2012 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "8. David Ragan (Dead friggin serious)" I believe it. Ragan has always been very good at Daytona and Talladega, as has his teammate David Gilliland. Ragan finished 5th in the 2007 Daytona 500, his first superspeedway race as a Cup driver, could have swept the Daytona races in 2011 had he not changed lanes early in the Daytona 500, and finished in the top ten in both Talladega races this year (including in the spring when he was unsponsored). Plus, he may have been the best pusher in both Talladega races when he and Matt Kenseth were tandem drafting, and was always quick to back off of Kenseth whenever two or more cars got together up ahead of them to avoid wrecking his teammate. 1476. 18fan posted: 12.13.2012 - 1:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ragan is a great plate racer, the problem is that plate racing is all he really has ever been good at besides 2 or 3 great runs at Richmond. 1477. Bronco posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Best Plate Racers: 1. Tony Stewart Lol, how can Tony be the best plat racer when he doesn't even have a legitimate win at Talladega, and has never won the Daytona 500? In fact that alone should disqualify him from being #1. My list of Best Plate Racers: 1. Dale Earnhardt Jr (best average finish there, always runs up front at those tracks) 2. Jeff Gordon (More wins than anyone else) 3. Kevin Harvick (Always a steady finisher) 4. Tony Stewart (Only because of his multiple wins in the Daytona 400-miler) 5. Brad Keselowski (Has really figured out Talladega) 6. Clint Bowyer 7. Jamie McMurray 8. Matt Kenseth (Will go back to being mediocre next year in the #20) 9. Kyle Busch (Very unlucky most of the time) 10. Kurt Busch (no wins but always runs at the front, no matter what ride he's in) 1478. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.13.2012 - 7:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I like you're list a ton. The only changes I'd make is changing Kyle Busch for Michael Waltrip and moving Jamie McMurray up to 3rd. 1479. David posted: 12.13.2012 - 10:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol, how can Tony be the best plat racer when he doesn't even have a legitimate win at Talladega, and has never won the Daytona 500? In fact that alone should disqualify him from being #1." Stewart is actually a really good plate racer. And Daytona is the tougher of the two plate tracks. He has four points-paying Cup wins there, to say nothing of his Duel wins, and the utter mockery he makes of the Nationwide Series when they race there in February. 1480. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.13.2012 - 12:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My long promoted blog post is now up for your pleasure. 1481. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.13.2012 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "5. Brad Keselowski (Has really figured out Talladega)" That is something that is a huge mystery to me, and as a Brad fan I have spent a lot of time thinking about. Ever since the respective repaves, no two tracks on the circuit are closer than Talladega and Daytona. Dega is a bit wider and more forgiving off the corners, but overall they are practically identical. The drivers that run good at one track in a given stretch or struggle will do the same at the other in the same stretch (think Matt Kenseth 2000-2011 and him in 2012). Except Brad! He can get a good finish at Talladega just about every time and always seems to find a way to be in contention at the end. But he really bites the big one at Daytona. He never runs up front there, always finds himself in the midpack mess where all the wrecks happen and almost always wrecks there. I have no explanation for this. 1482. Bronco posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ever since the respective repaves, no two tracks on the circuit are closer than Talladega and Daytona. Dega is a bit wider and more forgiving off the corners, but overall they are practically identical." I disagree. Talladega is wider and leads to more exciting racing with more lead changes and 3 or 4 wide packs of cars. Daytona races are more single file with the pack more spread out, and protecting the bottom line is usually the way to go. Talladega doesn't have a preferred groove. Carl is the opposite of Brad, terrible at Talladega but much better at Daytona, especially in the July race. Speaking of which, I went back and watched the finish of the 500 this year and if you look closely Carl passed the #20 and #55 under the yellow line but was still given 8th place. Shame that NASCAR still can't enforce its rules properly. 1483. Paul posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "if you look closely Carl passed the #20 and #55 under the yellow line but was still given 8th place. Shame that NASCAR still can't enforce its rules properly." Not only that, but NASCAR's explanation for not penalizing Carl was because he got forced below the yellow line. But apparently that wasn't the rule at Talladega '08 when Regan Smith was forced below the line by the otherwise winless at Talladega driver Tony Stewart. Ironically enough, both drivers were forced below the yellow line by the #20 car. Come to think of it, I can only think of four instances where NASCAR has penalized drivers for passing below the yellow line. Regan Smith at Talladega '08 was probably the most notable, but I also remember them doing that to Sterling Marlin at Daytona '03, Kenny Wallace at Talladega '02 when he was forced below the line by Marlin on the last lap, and even Carl in the '06 Bud Shootout when he ducked below the line to avoid running over a few cars. I'm against the yellow line rule to begin with, but if you're going to have it, you might as well enforce it every time "in the name of safety", rather than pick-and-choose based on which drivers are involved. If it's the previous season's championship runner-up it's legal, but if it's a (at the time) no-name driver like Regan then it's illegal. A little clarity would be nice on NASCAR's part. 1484. Spen posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is going to be a *really* long message, so I'll break it up as best I can. Rather than limit myself to 40 or 50, I'm going to list every driver with at least 100 career starts in the order of how highly I view thier accomplishments. Why so many? Because I'm really bored, and this will make up for missing so much disscussion lately. So I'll start off with a statement that most of you will disagree with. Number one driver of all time: Bobby Allison. Why Bobby? Because IMHO, every other driver that has ever raced is to some degree a product of either their era, or the people around them. Bobby was different. He found success, it never came looking for him. No matter what you threw at him, he would find some way of winning. He's the only driver who I honestly believe could have been sucessful in 1949, 2012, or any year in between. Things that would have derailed any other driver's career never phased him. Heck, it seemed like even Father Time couldn't hold him back much. Those are the intangibles that make him my pick, but let's look at some raw numbers here. He won for 13 different teams, he's the only driver besides Petty to win five in a row (with three different manufacturers!), he still holds the modern era records for most laps led in a season, most consecutive races led, and most top three finishes in a season (all of those records scored in his *one year* with Junior Johnson. Just imagine if that marraige could have lasted fifteen years!), and he also holds the record for oldest driver to win a title. Factor in his success at the all of the majors, and his overall versatility at every track not named Martinsville, and we've got ourselves a truly awe-inspiring career. The only real bad thing I can say about his career is that he couldn't point race very well. But the championship didn't really become all-important until about '85 or so, so I give him a pass on that. 2. Richard Petty. DSFF pretty much took the words right out of my mouth in his post. I don't think I really have anything to add to it. It's a major judgement call, and I mostly based it on my belief that Richard wouldn't have done as well if he'd been in Bobby's shoes. But that's not to knock Richard, who is and always will be the driver I respect most of all those who have ever climbed behind the wheel. 3. Dale Earnhardt. Everyone here is familiar with every one of Dale's accomplishments. I don't need to go into any further detail. But the only real reason I don't have him at number one is because too many of his wins came at a very small number of tracks. Cjs can and will go into more detail on that. 4. David Pearson. The only reason he isn't higher is because of his lack of desire to run full-time. Other than that, his numbers are mind-boggling. And I personally think DSFF is overrating Cotton Owens' team a bit. He really had no business being good enough to win the '66 title, but he still pulled it off. 5. Cale Yarborough. Sheer toughness and three consecutive full-season titles give him a top five spot in my book. 6. Jeff Gordon. His ability to win anywhere seriously impresses me. But if he were driving for a team other than Hendrick, with a crew chief other than Evernham, and in a more competitive era than the late '90's, he'd probably only have about half the success he's had. 7. Darrell Waltrip. Next to Petty, the greatest short-track driver of all time. But serial cheating, and generally underwhelming numbers with Hendrick (not to mention the embarrassment of his last few seasons) force me to put him lowest of the big seven. Not that that's anything to sneeze at, though. 8. Herb Thomas. I have to disagree majorly with what someone (I forget who) posted about him earlier. Having the highest win percentage of all time is certainly something worth remembering. Not to mention almost winning the '56 title while driving an inferior car. Plus, when you consider his age, and the fact that he seemed to be adapting to pavement better than any of his peers, it seems obvious to me that he had a *lot* of wins left in him. He also was pretty much the driver to beat from 51-54. Yeah, he was a lot quieter personality-wise than the Flocks or Baker, but who cares about that? 9. Lee Petty. Huge props for getting such a late start and still being able to have an incredible career. But I can't see fit to rank him above Herb. Herb finished ahead of him in points in all but one year where they both ran the full schedule, and even that year he won almost twice as many races. He's got only six wins less in almost two hundred more starts. Plus, Lee's lack of sucess at Darlington counts against him in my eyes. He really had only two years of being the driver to beat, and by that point, Herb, the Flocks and Dick Rathman were all long gone. The only driver in his league who was still racing full-time was Buck Baker, who fell off the map after '58. And 1959 was really the biggest cakewalk title in history. 10. Fireball Roberts. Almost equaled Bobby's total of teams won for in a far shorter career, and won all but one major race. For my money, the best driver to never win a title. 11. Jimmie Johnson. After 2010, I was willing to put him in the top eight, but the last couple of seasons have changed my evaluation of him somewhat. He's just too prone to unforced errors for me to consider him one of the ten best. 12. Ned Jarrett. 1961-64 is a very underrated era. All the manufacturers had teams, and most of teams had really solid drivers. Ned's ability to shine through in as tough an era as that was is why I rank him this high. 13. Junior Johnson. I rank him here for about the same reasons as Ned, but he gets the nod for having two championships. 14. Rusty Wallace. Also excelled in a tough era. He'd be higher if he wasn't so good at thinking his way out of wins. 15. Bill Elliott. Last driver to take a family team and beat everyone with it. If he'd made better career choices, there's no telling how high he could have climbed. And he showed just this year that even at 56, he can compete with the right car. 16. Tim Flock. Kiekaefer inflated his stats somewhat, but he still has his '52 title on top of it to prove that he could get the job done even without an absurdly great car. He only won once on pavement, though. 17. Tony Stewart. You could probably make a good argument for him to be in the top fifteen, but I look at how he threw away what should have been his title in '06, and tried everthing he could to lose '02, and I just can't place him that high. 18. Buck Baker. His '57 title was one for the history books. And regardless of how it was won, he did a superb job for Kiekhaefer in '56. However, those two years account for more than half of his win total. While he had a long career of being competitive (he holds the record of oldest driver to get a top ten finish), he wasn't really *the* driver to beat for long. Granted, his puzzling choices of manufacturer during the sixties probably hastened his downfall. 19. Bobby Isaac. Another two-year wonder, but what a two year period it was. The only driver not named Petty to lead 5000 laps in a season, and the record holder for most poles in a season. Only reason I have Buck higher is because he won both titles, while Isaac only won one. (And regardless of what people may think, it was not handed to him by Petty's injury. Even if Richard had won every race his car didn't enter, he still would have lost the title.) Just imagine if Chrysler didn't screw him over in '71. I believe the next few years would have been far more interesting. 20. Fred Lorenzen. Call him a product of Holman-Moody if you want, but the fact is, he won a ton of races in a very short time period. And for those who devalue pre-modern era wins because the races weren't as long, all but four of Fred's wins would have counted as a full race under the modern critera, giving him the second highest total of "full-distance wins" in that era. 21. Mark Martin. His ability to stay consistently relevent year-in and year-out is remarkable. And he also has far more wins than youi'd expect from someone who tends to be conservative on-track. But he lacks any one year where you can honestly say "oh yeah, he was the best this year". Making it difficult for me to call him "the best to never win a title". 22. Curtis Turner. I mostly have him this high because I have to rank Joe soon, and I can't in good conscience put Joe ahead of Curtis, considering their head-to-head record in convertibles. 23. Joe Weatherly. The '63 miracle title puts him in the top-25. 24. Rex White. I can only ignore 28 wins and a title for so long, even if he never won a "major". 25. Benny Parsons. One of the most solid drivers ever. Doesn't get near the credit he deserves for winning a title with an unsponsored second-tier team. That's more than enough for now. I'll post the rest of the list later. By the way, thanks for the cheap laugh DSFF. :) 1485. Paul posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I agree with Bronco that Daytona and Talladega are different now, especially last year with the changes in the spoiler size and radiators to prevent tandem drafting. At least there was side-by-side racing and passing going on at Talladega. Both Daytona races were snooze-fests, unless of course you are a diehard Matt Kenseth fan, in which case you probably loved seeing him lead every lap. The outside lane couldn't go, even with a tandem draft nobody could get a run on the cars on the inside line. Hopefully the changes to the new cars will fix what was wrong at Daytona last season. It wasn't the track's fault since the Truck and Nationwide races were both really good, although the narrower straightaways and corners, along with the sharpness of those corners, didn't help. 1486. Paul posted: 12.13.2012 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Front Row Motorsports has announced that all three of its 2012 drivers will return in 2013, and they plan on having Josh Wise run more races to the finish than he did last year. 1487. Sean posted: 12.13.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "8. Herb Thomas. I have to disagree majorly with what someone (I forget who) posted about him earlier. Having the highest win percentage of all time is certainly something worth remembering. Not to mention almost winning the '56 title while driving an inferior car. Plus, when you consider his age, and the fact that he seemed to be adapting to pavement better than any of his peers, it seems obvious to me that he had a *lot* of wins left in him. He also was pretty much the driver to beat from 51-54. Yeah, he was a lot quieter personality-wise than the Flocks or Baker, but who cares about that?" I think it was me. I wasn't rating him lowly (13th isn't low by the way) because of his personality (I don't care about personality as I've proven over and over based on my high ratings of plenty of drivers I don't care for and defense of Denny Hamlin as underrated even now). I rated him there because he had serial rule exploiter Smokey Yunick as his crew chief for both of his titles and most of his wins, but you made a very good argument and you did for Allison as well and your list might be the best of anyone's. 1488. David posted: 12.13.2012 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So I'll start off with a statement that most of you will disagree with. Number one driver of all time: Bobby Allison. Why Bobby? Because IMHO, every other driver that has ever raced is to some degree a product of either their era, or the people around them. Bobby was different. He found success, it never came looking for him. No matter what you threw at him, he would find some way of winning. He's the only driver who I honestly believe could have been successful in 1949, 2012, or any year in between. Things that would have derailed any other driver's career never phased him. Heck, it seemed like even Father Time couldn't hold him back much. Those are the intangibles that make him my pick, but let's look at some raw numbers here. He won for 13 different teams, he's the only driver besides Petty to win five in a row (with three different manufacturers!), he still holds the modern era records for most laps led in a season, most consecutive races led, and most top three finishes in a season (all of those records scored in his *one year* with Junior Johnson. Just imagine if that marraige could have lasted fifteen years!), and he also holds the record for oldest driver to win a title. Factor in his success at the all of the majors, and his overall versatility at every track not named Martinsville, and we've got ourselves a truly awe-inspiring career. The only real bad thing I can say about his career is that he couldn't point race very well. But the championship didn't really become all-important until about '85 or so, so I give him a pass on that." I'm not going to say I disagree with you, and it's funny you should bring these excellent points up, because the book that is sitting right by this computer is none other than "Miracle: Bobby Allison and the Saga of the Alabama Gang". The only reason I would not rank him at #1 on a list is because while he may have been the greatest driver ever, his stats don't really prove it to me. "He won for 13 different teams, he's the only driver besides Petty to win five in a row (with three different manufacturers!), he still holds the modern era records for most laps led in a season, most consecutive races led, and most top three finishes in a season (all of those records scored in his *one year* with Junior Johnson. Just imagine if that marraige could have lasted fifteen years!)" Just imagine if he could have stayed with Holman-Moody for fifteen years! 1489. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2012 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry I was out for a couple of days, but my cable and internet service was accidentally cut, but it's back now. Anyway, I've posted a blog showing the drivers I've ranked 21-30 all-time, which is the second part of my top 40 countdown. For those that may not remember (or don't care), drivers 31-40 are, on order, Harry Gant, Geoff Bodine, Rex White, Jeff Burton, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Davey Allison, Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Neil Bonnett, and Denny Hamlin. With that out of the way, here's a listing of drivers 21-40: 21. Fred Lorenzen 22. Dale Jarrett 23. Buddy Baker 24. Benny Parsons 25. Joe Weatherly 26. Matt Kenseth 27. Terry Labonte 28. Bobby Labonte 29. Ricky Rudd 30. Jim Paschal 31. Harry Gant 32. Geoff Bodine 33. Rex White 34. Jeff Burton 35. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 36. Davey Allison 37. Kurt Busch 38. Kyle Busch 39. Neil Bonnett 40. Denny Hamlin Drivers 11-20 are coming in the next blog on that subject. 1490. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.13.2012 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm a little Rex is so much lower than Jim Paschal. I know Jim won 2 World 600's, but Rex was the better superspeedway driver. 1491. JG24FanForever posted: 12.13.2012 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "22. Dale Jarrett"cjs3872,Glad to see respect for Jarrett by a poster on Racing Reference. I know you have Gordon in 2nd and I know you have Curtis Turner in the Top 15, so i'm looking forward to the rest of your list and the controversy it will cause. 1492. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2012 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, JG24FF, I don't have Curtis on my list because, due at least partly to his affilation with the Teamsters and his ouster from NASCAR in 1961, I don't have him on my list at all. However, it has nothing to do with his four years not being allowed to race in NASCAR, and more because of the four years he missed. Because of missing those four years, and only winning once after he came back in 1965, that I don't have him on my list. After all, my list is that of the top 40 Cup Series drivers, and Curtis does not make the cut in my view. And as for Jarrett, the only race of any significance he never won is the Southern 500, though he also never won the Talladega spring race (he won the fall race there twice, as well as the 400-mile spring race at Darlington twice). But multiple wins in marquee events, combined with winning a championship, and his overall numbers, which are more than many might remember him having, earn him a place in my top 25, and nearly the top 20 all-time. That is why I include statistics and other accomplishments in my blog posts on the subject. And another thing that is forgotten is that he won on the tough tracks, not just the superspeedways, and all he lacked from being a great all-around driver was success on the road courses. He was never good there. But he won at Darlington, Dover, Bristol, Martinsville, Richmond. Judging by the opinions of Jarrett on this board, his career may well have fallen through the cracks. But let's not forget that he stared down Dale Earnhardt, Sr. to win the Daytona 500 not once, but twice. Once he passed him on the final lap, and the other time he held him off for 24 laps, in what has to be one of the most courageous Daytona 500 wins in the last 20-25 years. After all, he stared down the gun barrel of Dale, Sr.'s moves for 24 laps at the end of the 1996 Daytona 500, and never flinched once. That, more than anything else proves that Jarrett beyond intimidation. And besides Jeff Gordon, he's the only driver ever to have won both the Daytona 500 and the Brickyard 400 more than once. And if weren't for the presence of Gordon, I believe that he would have won at least two, and maybe three championships because, unlike many of the top drivers of today, he actually knew how to race. And by the way, if you se my blog post, you'll notice two errors where the Dale Jarrett posting is concerned. First, he won the title in 1999, not 2000. The other was saying he was partof the only father-son duo to capture the championship. Obviously that's an error, as Lee and Richard Petty, the most successful father-son duo in American racing history, won 10 championships between them, 7 for Richard and 3 for Lee. 1493. JG24FanForever posted: 12.13.2012 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "as well as the 400-mile spring race at Darlington twice" That should read thrice,since Jarrett won Darlington in 1997-98 and 2001. Here's a little nugget that goes completely unnoticed in the Gordon/Johnson debate: Jeff Gordon has 40 wins WITHOUT Ray Evernham, but Johnson only has 2 without Chad. Why is this downplayed to the point that Chad never comes up in the discussion? 1494. JG24FanForever posted: 12.13.2012 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Because of missing those four years, and only winning once after he came back in 1965, that I don't have him on my list." Curtis Turner is 24-0 against Joe Weatherly in 1-2 finishes in the Convertible division and won 38 of 79 races started. In 1997 the magazine "Inside Nascar" poled past Legends,Champions,current Drivers and Owners in the Cup series to vote their Top 10 greatest Cup drivers and this is the list: 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Richard Petty 3. David Pearson 4. Cale Yarborough 5. Bobby Allison 6. Fireball Roberts 7. Curtis Turner 8. Junior Johnson 9. Tim Flock 10.Darrell Waltrip And a quote from Glen Wood(who was a voter) from the article:"He could do more with a race car than anybody I ever saw". Curtis Turner was the first Stock Car driver to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated back in 1968. And you don't have him in a Top 40? I tend to go with the opinions of the Legends of the sport concerning Curtis Turner. 1495. cjs3872 posted: 12.13.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember JG24FF, this has to do with the Cup series and what the selected drivers did there, and the Cup series only. This has nothing to do with any lower division series, whether it was NASCAR's Sportsman series, Convertible series, ARCA, Baby Grand, NASCAR's Truck series, or anything else. It's just NASCAR's top series. If you were to include what the drivers did in the lower division, combined with their Cup exploits, the list would look a lot different than what it currently does (such as Mark Martin rivaling Jeff Gordon and Kyle Busch rankied much higher than 38th). And I had forgotten about Jarrett's 2001 win in the 400-mile spring race at Darlington in 2001, a fact that only points out even further how good he really was. Along with Mark Martin, if any driver's legacy was hurt by Gordon's domiance, it would be Dale Jarrett. 1496. BON GORDON posted: 12.14.2012 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Curtis Turner is only 49th on my list. I really think he was a great driver. He just doesn't have the stats to be a Top driver on my list. Yes he has 17 wins in only 183 races but still he "only" has 17 wins and 73 Top Tens. He did win the Southern 500 in 1956. Curtis did have great car control but I think there are better drivers. I've seen Curtis up in many Top Ten and 15 lists and sometimes I think he is much too low on my list but man I just don't see it. 1497. Paul posted: 12.14.2012 - 3:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I must say I am baffled that Curtis Turner isn't in your "Top 40 Greatest Drivers" list. He had 17 Cup wins in 184 starts, which gives him a career winning percentage of 9.2% (or 11.6% if you exclude his post-1961 numbers), while drivers that were ranked that had similar win totals as him had lower career win percentages. Neil Bonnett, who won 18 races in 362 starts, had a career winning percentage of 5.0%; and Dale Earnhardt, Jr., who has 19 wins in 469 starts, has a career winning percentage of 4.1%. And even if you exclude Junior's post-2006 numbers, he still only has a career winning percentage of 6.6%. I'm not saying that either of those two shouldn't be off your list for those reasons, although I have been vocal about my displeasure of Junior being on your list for different reasons, but I'm not buying them as being better Cup drivers than Curtis Turner. I won't go into his amazing Convertible Series stats as they don't pertain to his Cup success, as several of you have pointed out the obvious. But among his wins in Cup include wins in two of the first four Martinsville races (two more than Bobby Allison) without power steering, winning the inaugural race at Rockingham in '65 (which would be his final win), and the '56 Southern 500. Despite racing in an era full of short tracks with very few of the present-day majors on the schedule, and never racing a full schedule, Turner has as many major wins as today's drivers like Denny Hamlin, Kyle Busch*, Kurt Busch, and Dale Earnhardt, Jr.*, and all four of them are ranked while Turner is on the left off your list. Heck, Turner has one more major win than fellow '50s/'60s short track star Rex White, and even has as many wins at Martinsville as White despite having 49 fewer starts. (* Kyle and Junior have wins in the spring Talladega race after Winston pulled their sponsorship for the race, which may or may not fit into people's criteria in terms of major wins.) My argument isn't that those guys should be left off in favor of Turner, who in some ways has accomplished as much, if not more, than them, but I don't like the idea that a driver who was described by the legendary Glen Wood as being the greatest driver he ever saw being left off a "Top 40 Greatest Drivers" list despite what he accomplished in Cup. 1498. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.14.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I never really thought about that, but DJ was one of only three drivers to not fear Earnhardt, the others being Jeremy Mayfield (some say that was no class, but it still takes guts to have no class around Dale Earnhardt) and Ricky Rudd, Rudd being the only driver to ever use the Intimidator's intimidation against him. Imagine the rivalry we could have had if Rudd ever had a top-flight ride... 1499. David posted: 12.14.2012 - 8:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To the above post: What about Tim Richmond? 1500. cjs3872 posted: 12.14.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, neither Rusty Wallace or Jeff Gordon feared Earnhardt, either, and they were the only two to beat Earnhardt in a straight-up championship fight. Earnhardt got in the heads of all his other competitors, but not Wallace, Jarrett, or Gordon. Mark Martin even created a strategy to prevent himself from getting wrecked, which many drivers employ today, and that is to just move over to let faster cars go by. And Paul, I don't rate Curtis Turner among my top 40 partly because of the four years he lost when he was banned for life by Bill France in 1961. But it's quite possible that he was already beginning to slide at that time, even though he won at Rockingham in his NASCAR comeback race in 1965, which was more impressive than even winning the Southern 500 in 1956. As good as everyone believes him to have been, he should have won and placed among the leaders far more than he did. That's why I don't have him ranked in my top 40. He simply underacheived in NASCAR's top series. 1501. David posted: 12.14.2012 - 10:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Ageless Wonder, Mark Martin before Mark Martin, Hershel McGriff turns 85 today. Oh, by the way, this is the 1500th comment!!! 1502. Spen posted: 12.14.2012 - 11:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 26. Jim Paschal. As I once said on his driver page, the best driver who will never make the Hall of Fame. Massively underrated. 27. Matt Kenseth. His second 500 win, plus his overall resurgence over the last two years have caused him to jump up a bit. 28. Terry Labonte. High versatility and two titles are why he makes my top thirty. 29. Harry Gant. If his career had started in the late sixties, there's no telling how far up the win list he'd have climbed. 30. Marvin Panch. Had a good deal more versatility than most drivers of his era. 31. Dick Hutcherson. His numbers are perhaps inflated due to Chrysler's hissy fit, but he still had the most incredible rookie season ever. Best IMCA transplant, by far. 32. Dale Jarrett. Some may scoff at me ranking him higher than Ernie or Davey, and I would say that both had more natural ability, but at the end of the day, DJ won a championship, and they didn't. His mental toughness carried him far further than his driving skills did. 33. Fonty Flock. While Red Byron usually gets the credit, Fonty was really the first ever NASCAR champion, winning Bill France's pre-NASCAR series title in 1947. That, combined with the @$$-kicking he delivered in '51, makes me put him in my top-40. 34. Tim Richmond. I'm actually more impressed by his winning twice for J.D. Stacy than I am at his '86 season. 35. Dick Rathman. His ownership of Langhorne is the main reason for his being ranked this high. At this point, I got tired of trying to explain my choices, so I'll just give the rest of the list without explanation. If anyone wants to know why someone is where they are, just ask. 36. Ricky Rudd 37. Ernie Irvan 38. Davey Allison 39. Kurt Busch 40. Bobby Labonte 41. Denny Hamlin 42. Geoffrey Bodine 43. Neil Bonnett 44. Buddy Baker 45. Kyle Busch 46. Lee Roy Yarbrough 47. Alan Kulwicki 48. Carl Edwards 49. Jeff Burton 50. Brad Keselowski 51. Greg Biffle 52. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 53. Kevin Harvick 54. Jack Smith 55. A.J. Foyt 56. Speedy Thompson 57. Kasey Kahne 58. Jim Reed 59. Bob Welborn 60. Darel Dieringer 61. James Hylton 62. Clint Bowyer 63. Donnie Allison 64. Cotton Owens 65. Paul Goldsmith 66. Sterling Marlin 67. Ryan Newman 68. Jamie McMurray 69. Dave Marcis 70. Ward Burton 71. Kyle Petty 72. Tiny Lund 73. Morgan Shepherd 74. Charlie Glotzbach 75. Bobby Hamilton 76. Ken Schrader 77. Bobby Johns 78. Steve Park 79. Bill Blair 80. Robby Gordon 81. Dick Brooks 82. Jeremy Mayfield 83. David Reutimann 84. Jimmy Pardue 85. Elmo Langley 86. Larry Frank 87. Wendell Scott 88. Paul Lewis 89. Jody Ridley 90. Dick Trickle 91. G.C. Spencer 92. Joe Nemechek 93. Larry Thomas 94. Ricky Craven 95. Marcos Ambrose 96. John Andretti 97. Lennie Pond 98. Joe Eubanks 99. Johnny Benson, Jr. 100. Johnny Allen 101. Tom Pistone 102. Elliott Sadler 103. Juan Pablo Montoya 104. Brian Vickers 105. Lake Speed 106. Martin Truex, Jr. 107. John Sears 108. Neil Castles 109. Cecil Gordon 110. Joe Ruttman 111. Ted Musgrave 112. Coo Coo Marlin 113. Friday Hassler 114. Fred Harb 115. Buddy Arrington 116. Joey Logano 117. J.D. McDuffie 118. Regan Smith 119. Jerry Nadeau 120. Jimmy Spencer 121. Hut Stricklin 122. Richard Childress 123. Rick Mast 124. Steve Grissom 125. Ron Bouchard 126. David Sisco 127. Michael Waltrip 128. Paul Menard 129. Casey Mears 130. Phil Parsons 131. Brett Bodine 132. Derrike Cope 133. Bobby Hillin, Jr. 134. David Ragan 135. Jimmie Lewallen 136. Clyde Lynn 137. Roy Tyner 138. Dave Blaney 139. Jeff Green 140. Mike Skinner 141. Todd Bodine 142. Scott Riggs 143. Kenny Wallace 144. Sam Hornish, Jr. 145. Bill Champion 146. Walter Ballard 147. J.T. Putney 148. Curtis Crider 149. A.J. Allmendinger 150. Wally Dallenbach, Jr. 151. Jabe Thomas 152. Henley Gray 153. George Green 154. Herman Beam 155. L.D. Austin 156. Robert Pressley 157. Roy Mayne 158. Joe Frasson 159. Bruce Hill 160. Reed Sorenson 161. Mike Bliss 162. Greg Sacks 163. Ben Arnold 164. Bill Seifert 165. Doug Cooper 166. Dean Dalton 167. Travis Kvapil 168. Ronnie Thomas 169. Ed Negre 170. Frank Warren 171. Mike Wallace 172. Earl Brooks 173. E.J. Trivette 174. Bobby Wawak 175. Jimmy Means 176. Dick May 177. Wayne Smith 178. Chad Little 179. David Gilliland 180. Kevin Lepage 181. Tony Raines 182. Scott Wimmer 183. Trevor Boys 184. Rick Wilson 185. D.K. Ulrich 186. Tommy Gale 187. Scott Speed 188. J.J. Yeley 189. Eddie Bierschwale 190. David Stremme 191. Michael McDowell 1503. David posted: 12.14.2012 - 11:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Goldsmith in 65th? I always thought he may have been underrated. 1504. Smiff_2 posted: 12.14.2012 - 1:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's about time we see a little love for DJ on here! Some of you guys on here have really sold him short. Like CJS said, the guy won EVERYWHERE except on the road courses....and like Sean or someone else mentioned a ways back, if it hadn't been for that bullshit penalty at The Glen on '97, he would've been a TWO-time champion. 1505. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.14.2012 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) May I NEVER stop feeling this sick after hearing this kind of news. My most heartfelt prayers and deepest symapthies to the victims and their families. 1506. David posted: 12.14.2012 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I assume you are speaking of the Connecticut school tragedy? Just another product of this increasingly corrupt and belligerent world. That said, our prayers do go out to those children's families. 1507. Baker posted: 12.14.2012 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TO the guy going to bat for Curtis Turner as a Top 10 NASCAR driver....just stop it bro. Stop. The only year he even raced over half the season he finished 5th in points. You cannot rank a guy so high on a NASCAR Cup list for what he accomplished in another series. If you were doing that then A.J. Foyt and Mario Andretti would be Top 3-5. Tony Stewart would have to be moved up rankings for what he has done in USAC and IRL and you would have to include Juan Montoya for his accomplishments in CART. You wouldn't think it was fair to over value Montoya or Stewart for what they accomplished in other forms of racing so why does it make sense to boose Curtis Turner's ranking? We get that he was talented but he was not a Top 10 Cup driver. 1508. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.15.2012 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those who don't look down at the blogs, I put my 2013 predictions down there. 1509. Spen posted: 12.15.2012 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking too hard on that one. Paul should probably be around 58th. 1510. Anonymous posted: 12.15.2012 - 12:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Dale Jarrett won the Spring Darlington race 3 times, not 2 times. Dale Jarrett won the spring race in 1997,1998, and 2001. 1511. cjs3872 posted: 12.15.2012 - 1:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anonymous (#1510), if you check post #1495, you'll see that I corrected that oversight, and yes, it was the 2001 spring race at Darlington I overlooked. But that's understandable, considering how many posts there are. 1512. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know where some people around he stand on Buck Baker, especially where his first championship in '56 is concerned, but I see that his son Buddy is not rated as highly by others who have ranked drivers, as he is on my list at 23rd. Buddy was a hard charger that simply raced in the wrong period. Frankly, I think if Buddy's prime was in the last 20-25 years, instead of the late 60s through the 70s, he could very well have been as great a champion as his father was, if not greater, simply because the equipment today will stand up to the abuse Buddy gave it. Even then, he finished his career with over 200 top 5 and over 300 top 10 finishes, currently ranking in the top 15 all-time in both categories. Only his lack of wins prevents him from cracking the top 20. 19 wins in 700 starts is pretty shallow, but that's offset somewhat by his big number of top 5 and top 10 finishes, and in an era where the big races mattered almost as much, if not more than the championship did, he won all the big ones at least once. And it's also interesting that every driver from 24th-30th on my list, with the possible exception of Joe Weatherly in 25th, was the exact same type of driver. Those drivers were/are the more conservative type, always conserving their equipment until late in the race. Benny Parsons, Matt Kenseth, the Labonte brothers, Ricky Rudd, and Jim Paschal were, or are all like that, yet have been very successful, as each won at least 20 races with that style, with Kenseth possibly getting well into the 30s by the end of his career. 1513. BON GORDON posted: 12.16.2012 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Conservering equipment to me and saving it all till the end is almost as/if not more important than charging hard and risking breaking eqipment and or wrecking. Matt Kenseth is one of the masters at this. Back in 2007 or so my buddy and I watched a lot of NASCAR races together. I can't say he was a fan but he watched it with me anyway. After the New Hampshire race that Denny Hamlin won and barely beat Gordon they showed the running order. Kenseth had finished 9th after running 14th all race. He says, "Man that Kenseth runs like crap all race and gets a Top Ten every week." 1514. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Flacco just threw a Romo. 1515. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2012 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed BON GORDON, but conserving the equipment is not as important now as it was a generation or two ago because the equipment is so much more reliable, and because it's so reliable, the drivers can run as hard as they can and not worry about mechanical failures. That's why I stated that Buddy Baker raced in ther wrong era, because if he had been in his prime in the last 20-25 years, he could actually have been as great as his father was. But he was a hard charger in an era where the equipment would not stand such abuse, and that's why he didn't win as many races as he should have. Also, Buddy raced for some teams that were never known for reliable equipment, even in that particular era. DSFF has brought up Bud Moore's history of poor reliability, but the reliability record of Nord Krauskopf's K&K Insurance team was even worse, and Buddy drove there before he joined Moore in 1974. As a result, Buddy always had fast cars, but only won one race for that team, the 1973 World 600, which was basically run in two halves due to rain. Hoss Ellington's team was another that was not known for good reliability, and by the time he joined the Wood Brothers in 1983, both he and the Woods were well past their prime and no longer weekly contenders. So the fact that Waddell Wilson's engines did not give up nearly as often, even with Baker's heavy foot, is why he's one of the top 5-7 engine builders in the sport's history, along with the likes of Maurice Petty, Robert Yates, and Randy Dorton. 1516. BON GORDON posted: 12.16.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only reasons Buddy Baker isn't higher on my list (#34) is for one he never raced full time very much and finished a career high 5th in the standings in 1977 with no victories. If he had a title he would be higher. You are correct that maybe I should factor in that he was a lead foot and a hard charger and therefore his equipment never lasted. And the most important reason for why he's only 34th on my list which you also stated was that he only had 19 wins in 700 starts. However, he did win the 1980 Daytona 500, the 1970 Southern 500, won 4 races at Talladega, he had 202 Top fives and 311 Top Tens. He also was a decent qualifier and won 38 poles. 1517. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2012 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention the fact that he was the first-ever 3-time World 600 winner, as well as being the first to win that race in consecutive years (1972-'73). But the fact that he had over 200 top 5 and over 300 top 10 finishes while in mostly unreliable equipment and mostly driing part-time schedules are reasons why I rank Buddy where I do. In the prime of his career, he was never in reliable equipment, or he might have won twice as often as he did. But Nord Krauskopf's #71 team, Bud Moore's team, and Hoss Ellington's team, and those were the teams that Buddy drove for from 1973-through the early part of '82, had some of the most unreliable equipment in the history of the sport. The only exception would be 1978, when he drove for M.C. Anderson's team, which was just starting up, and they had reliability problems not just with Baker, but also with Benny Parsons. But why do you think Bobby Isaac never won any of the sport's biggest races, with the 1971 Firecracker 400 being his biggest victory? It certainly wasn't because Isaac wasn't capable. His championship in 1970 showed he was capable. A big reason was poor reliability. In fact, Krauskopf's unreliable equipment cost Isaac the championship in 1969. And with the exception of Baker's 1973 World 600 win, Harry Hyde's cars never could bring it home in the biggest events until Tim Richmond drove for him in 1986. 1518. BON GORDON posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS where would you rank a guy like Jeff Burton. In 655 career starts he has 21 wins, 132 Top Fives, and 248 Top Tens. he finished in the Top Ten in points 8 times which included a career high 3rd in the year 2000. He won the Pepsi/Firecraker 400 in 2000, the Southern 500 in 1999, and the Coke 600 in 2001. He was also a good road racer dispite never winning one. He finished second at Watkins Glen in 2001 and 3rd at Sonoma in 2007. However, I only have him placed 46th on my list. It's kinda hard to rank him very high because of his up and down career. He was fading at Rouch from 2001 on and had a rebirth in 2006-2008 but has faded yet again and this time I don't see him returning to the front because he will be 46 this year and on his way out at Richard Childress. 1519. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All Day rushes for over 200 yards. But Peyton had another strong statistical game and Brady is on pace for another good statistical season. You know one of those two will get the MVP instead of AD. They will either give it to Brady so he will be within one MVP of Manning (cause the press is all about the award they vote on) so they can crank up that "debate" (3 is a bigger number than 1) or they will give it to Manning so he can have 5 MVPs to point to and overlook his losing playoff record. And I will be EXTREMELY angry. WARRIOR!!!!!! 1520. 18fan posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Burton also won the Coke 600 in 1999. 1521. BON GORDON posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, good call 18fan. 1522. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Adrian Peterson needs 294 yards these next two games against the Texans and Packers to break Eric Dickerson's single-season rushing record. Both of those teams will be tough to break the record against, especially the Packers who won't make it easy for a division foe to break that record. I hope A.D. breaks Dickerson's record, not just because I'm a fan, but because I'm sick of that smug guy bragging about his record. He's the only player I've ever heard openly say that he doesn't want his record to be broken. I've never heard Marino or Elway say they didn't want Favre breaking their records, but maybe it's because they know that record or no record, they were better than Favre ever was. Once Dickerson loses his record, he'll lose his greatest attribute, and I think he's very self-conscious about that. But even if A.D. gets close, or even breaks Dickerson's record, it's no guarantee that he'll win league MVP. Jamal Lewis came 39 yards short of Dickerson's single-season rushing record, yet got snubbed for MVP by co-winners Steve McNair and "The Chosen One". Maybe we'll see a similar repeat of 2003 with A.D. coming close or breaking Dickerson's record, yet being snubbed for MVP by co-winners Peyton and Brady. 1523. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Also, Kirk Cousins had a great game today against the Browns in place of the injured RG3. With that win (and a HORRIBLE Giants collapse), the Redskins are now tied for the division lead with the Giants, winning the tiebreaker because of their better division record. It's a good thing that Jim Harbaugh isn't the Redskins head coach, otherwise we'd have a quarterback controversy and Cousins would probably start the rest of the season. 1524. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, as for where I rank Jeff Burton, read post #1489 or my blog post where I ranked the drivers I put in the 31st-40th positions, and you'll see where I rated Burton, because I put him 34th on my list. The reason Burton faded in his last years with Roush was because Roush disregarded him to focus on his younger drivers, Matt Kenseth, Kurt Busch, and eventually Carl Edwards, as well as trying to get the elusive championship, which he finally got with Kenseth in 2003. In fact, he never even tried to get Burton sponsorship in 2004 because he was trying to force him out the door, which he did about two-thirds of the way through the season. And Paul, Peyton Manning shared the MVP in 2003 with Steve McNair, not Tom Brady, who beat both McNair and Manning on the way to his second Super Bowl title. And Eric Dickerson did not win the NFL MVP in 1984 when he set the existing rushing record either, because that was the same year Dan Marino shattered the record books with 5,084 yeards and 48 TD passes for the Dolphins in his first full year as a starter. And as for your commenting about the Rrdskins and Giants, let's not sleep on the Cowboys, because if they beat Pittsburgh, they'll create a 3-way tie in the NFC East, and they face Washington in the season finale. 1525. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I clearly stated that Manning and McNair were co-MVP winners in '03. What I said was that we may see a similar situation this year with the leading rusher being snubbed for MVP in favor of Manning and another quarterback receiving co-MVP honors. In '03, Jamal Lewis was snubbed in favor of Manning and McNair; and this year A.D. could be snubbed for Manning and Brady if the voters decide they can't decide between the two. 1526. David posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, time for a double feature... A few weeks ago, on the day of the Phoenix race, I finished calculating the 2004 season with my points system. I was going to post the standings after the race, but didn't, for somewhat obvious reasons. The same day, when I finished 2004, I immediately started on the 2005 season. It took me longer than I would have liked, but I finally finished that season last night. So, now I will post standings for both years right here. As always, you will find the comparisons to the actual standings in parentheses. The Chasers, as well as how many points they scored, will be posted at the bottom of their respective standings. 2004 first. I cannot really say I am surprised by these results. Everyone is where they should be, in my view. 1. Jimmie Johnson - 1640 (+1 compared to actual non-Chase standings) 2. Jeff Gordon - 1550 (-1) 3. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 1448 4. Kurt Busch - 1303 5. Tony Stewart - 1189 6. Mark Martin - 1166 (+1) 7. Jamie McMurray - 1164 (-1) 8. Ryan Newman - 1114 (+1) 9. Matt Kenseth - 1069 (-1) 10. Kasey Kahne - 1046 (+2) 11. Elliott Sadler - 1009 (-1) 12. Jeremy Mayfield - 929 (+3) 13. Dale Jarrett - 913 (+1) 14. Kevin Harvick - 910 (-1) 15. Bobby Labonte - 891 (-4) 16. Greg Biffle - 830 (+1) 17. Rusty Wallace - 803 (-1) 18. Joe Nemechek - 779 (+1) 19. Jeff Burton - 747 (-1) 20. Michael Waltrip - 737 Chase Points: 1. Jimmie Johnson - 520 2. Kurt Busch - 467 3. Jeff Gordon - 412 4. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 400 5. Mark Martin - 345 6. Tony Stewart - 310 7. Ryan Newman - 308 8. Kasey Kahne - 264 9. Elliott Sadler - 196 10. Matt Kenseth - 195 Now for 2005. I was pleasantly surprised by Brian Vickers's performance throughout most of the season, and amazed at Matt Kenseth's midsummer tear to make the Chase. He was languishing in 23rd before he started driving possessed. 1. Tony Stewart - 1571 2. Greg Biffle - 1506 3. Jimmie Johnson - 1370 4. Carl Edwards - 1242 (+1) 5. Mark Martin - 1223 (-1) 6. Kurt Busch - 1154 (+4) 7. Matt Kenseth - 1145 8. Jeff Gordon - 1078 (+3) 9. Ryan Newman - 1057 (-1) 10. Rusty Wallace - 1043 (-4) 11. Jeremy Mayfield - 912 (-2) 12. Kyle Busch - 903 (+8) 13. Jamie McMurray - 851 (-1) 14. Elliott Sadler - 848 (-1) 15. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 844 (+4) 16. Brian Vickers - 820 (+1) 17. Kevin Harvick - 812 (-3) 18. Dale Jarrett - 773 (-3) 19. Joe Nemechek - 739 (-3) 20. Kasey Kahne - 735 (+3) (Ready for a SHOCKER? Then read on, by all means.) Chase Points: 1. Carl Edwards - 466 2. Mark Martin - 440 3. Jimmie Johnson - 429 4. Greg Biffle - 428 5. Tony Stewart - 425 6. Matt Kenseth - 373 7. Jeff Gordon - 329 8. Rusty Wallace - 222 9. Kurt Busch - 221 10. Jeremy Mayfield - 190 You know the routine; if you want to know where a particular driver placed (in either year), then just ask. 1527. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Redskins are for real! Perhaps this is their year. 1528. cjs3872 posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about that Paul, I apologize for the error. 1529. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry cjs, I pretty much ruined the fun of ranking drivers historically. So let's make some fun rankings. Here are my Top twelve Epic Kyle Busch Meltdowns. In descending order. 12) Dover 2005: The Boring Start Of A Boring Rivalry. In the Busch race, Kyle tries to pass Harvick, wrecks both of them, Harvick shows his ass by driving their wreckage halfway across the track. Instead of ignoring him like Matt Kenseth the previous year, Kyle drives the wrong way on the track to the Busch garage in anger and makes things worse in his interview. 11) Michigan 2005: Air Kyle. Kyle leads 28 of the first 81 laps and appears to be heading towards his first Cup win. But he gets trash on his front grille robbing any air flow to his motor. Despite pleas from his crew, he stays out and blows the engine, finishing dead last. Seeing as how two weeks later he did win his first race at MIS's sister track, Cali, leading 95 of 250 laps, this looks really bad. 10) Chicago 2009: Windy City Airhead. Needing a good finish to stay in cha$e contention, and coming to the track as the defending winner (and only winner of a nighttime Chicago race at the time) his car isn't handling right so he hits the wall numerous times and can be heard overrevving the hell out of his motor on pit road in frustration. He eventually blows up, finishes 33rd, and loses the final cha$e spot to Brian Vickers. Ouch. 9) Bristol 2008-2011: Thunder Valley Roller Coaster. From the Summer of 2008 through the Summer of 2011, Kyle won 4 Cup races, 3 NWide races, and 3 Truck races at Bristol. But he also embarrassed himself a lot. After leading 415 consecutive laps in the Cup Night race in '08, he loses to a bump n run by Carl. To show his displeasure on the cool down lap, he slams into Carl, who further embarrasses him by spinning him out. He dominated the 2009 NWide Spring race, but a late pit road penalty costs him the win. He cusses his team out over the radio, then parks his car at the opposite end of the track as his crew, forcing them to push it a long way back to the hauler. Way to stay classy towards the guys who work their asses off so you can live your dream. In the 2010 NWide Night Race, he tries a slide job on Brad K, cuts across Brad's nose, then wrecks Brad for not rolling over for him, leading to the following night when Brad announces "Kyle Busch Is An Ass!". Kyle wins the Cup race over Reutimann. In the media center afterwards, he trashes Reut's driving ability even though he beat him making a needless enemy (hold this thought). Also, when asked about Brad's comments, Kyle responds by saying "Who?". In the Summer of 2011, he attempts another failed slide job in the Truck race (way to learn from your mistakes) on Sadler. He pits to repair the damage, returns to the track and wrecks Sadler (after doing the chicken shit puttering around waiting for him, a la Jeff Gordon) for not rolling over for him. Despite being favored to win the Cup race, it is won by (wait for it... wait for it...) Brad K, his 3rd win of the Summer en route to a 5th place finish in his second full season, which matches Kyle's career total at the time and presently (8 seasons). I wonder if he knew "Who?" Brad was after that one? 8) Texas 2010: Free Bird. After getting spun and avoiding the wall, Kyle still blows his tires out saving it. He has to pit to change the tires and speeds leaving the pits to beat the pace car to stay on the same lap. He gets the mandatory one lap penalty for this. Instead of taking his medicine and taking advantage of the inevitable lucky dogs, wave arounds, and phantom debris cautions, he is caught on camera giving a very mature middle finger to the NASCAR official, then the double bird. This gives him another one lap penalty. He finishes 32nd 2 laps down. He goes on to get his second best career points finish: Seventh. 7) Texas 2011: The Lonely Position of Parked. Running all 3 races on the Texas weekend, he is favored to get another "Triple Crown Weekend". He only gets to run in 1 race. In that first race, he tries to crowd championship contender Ron Hornaday into a lapped car. Ron pushes back, causes Kyle to brush the wall (which in modern day NASCAR automatically mandates a caution). Kyle uses the caution to shove a slowing Ron around the track and eventually head on into the wall destroying both Trucks. He is parked for the race which doesn't matter at the time. It matters the next morning when Mike Helton makes the Immortal announcement that "During the truck race last night, we had an incident between the 18 and the 33 trucks that resulted in NASCAR parking the 18 truck for the balance of the event ..... NASCAR has decided to maintain that parked position on the driver of the 18 truck for the balance of the weekend." HA! 1530. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 6) Texas 2007: Dude, Where's My Driver?. Kyle destroys his car in a mid race incident then storms out of the track like a little child. Problem is, the car is fixable. The #5 team gets it repaired and ready to drive to pick up some points. But Kyle is long gone. So they get the very driver he slammed into (ending his day legitimately) to finish the race for Kyle. Not only is that bad, but that driver is Dale Jr, free agent to be and marketing machine. He eventually replaces Kyle at HMS after they get decide they are tired of his antics. The most talented driver in the garage is shitcanned. Embarrassing. 5) Atlanta 2011: I Have Seen Jeff Gordon, And You Sir Are No Jeff Gordon. This one is underrated in my opinion. On Labor Day weekend 2011, a 26 year old Kyle Busch has the chance to win $1 million as part of a promotion by the Series sponsor if he can win a 500 mile race on a worn out, tire grinding track in the Deep South. 14 years earlier, on Labor Day weekend 1997, a 26 year old Jeff Gordon had the chance to win $1 million as part of a promotion by the Series sponsor if he can win a 500 mile race on a worn out, tire grinding track in the Deep South. Seeing as how Kyle was always supposed to be The Next Jeff Gordon, given his freakish talent and landing in elite rides at a ridiculously young age, this is a big deal. Up to this point, despite showing he is as talented as anyone, he has fallen way short of Gordon at the same age (who had much less stock car experience at the time), but if he can match this feat, it can help him a little bit start to fill those shoes. Not totally, but it could be a start. In 1997, Jeff carried a car inferior to the Fords to victory lane and the $1 million bonus. In 2011, Kyle Busch Agreed To Lose, he started 3rd, led 19 laps early, but faded to finish 23rd one lap down. Oh, by the way, the winner of that 2011 Atlanta race? 40 year old Jeff Gordon, who won an epic battle slip sliding with the 5 time defending champ. Speaking of throwback Refuse To Lose Jeff Gordon performances: 4) Richmond 2012: Wonderboy Vs Rowdy. Kyle is clinging to the final cha$e spot after a regular season full of horrible luck by 12 points over Jeff Gordon whose luck that season had been even worse. In his Cup career, Kyle already had 4 Richmond wins in Cup, as well as something like 89 Top 5s in Richmond Cup races (my unofficial count) in less than 8 seasons. Jeff, on the other hand, in his 20th season, out of 86 (at the time) career wins, had only 2 Richmond wins, one of which resulted in a 100 point, $100,000 penalty for an illegal motor. BIG advantage: Kyle. The race starts and Kyle isn't as strong as he usually is at Richmond, but still hovering around the 6th place mark which is all he needs. Meanwhile Jeff's car is a piece of shit. By the rain delay just before the halfway mark, he is 23rd, 2 laps down. But then Kyle's team makes a pit strategy error. 7 other teams make the same error and make it back to the Top 10. But it doesn't matter cause Kyle throws in the towel after this error, quits giving feedback about the car, and even with two Toyota corporate mates tanking in the end to give him positions, he only finishes 16th. All the while, Jeff gets his car adjusted and DRIVES LIKE A MAN POSSESSED, finishing 2nd. Jeff makes the cha$e, Kyle doesn't. 3) Loudon 2006: It Begins. Kyle enters his first cha$e in his second season 4th in points after a splendid regular season. Can he step it up in the cha$e and become the legend his talent would allow him to be? Of course not. He crowds a lapped car into the wall despite his spotter warning him there was a car there. This starts a career theme for Kyle, he fails to win a single cha$e race and falls to 10th in points. 2) Kansas 2010: Reut's Revenge. Remember Kyle's post race trashing of Reut's driving ability after Bristol. Not only is that a douchebag thing to do, it makes an enemy out of somebody who is not a threat to him potentially being the best in NASCAR. At Kansas, he finally pushes the way too nice Reut over the edge by dumping him early. They fix Reut's car, and Reut side swipes Kyle's car, warping Kyle's rear end geometry. Karma is a bitch. Kyle finishes 21st in the race. 1) Dover 2012: Biting The Hand That Feeds You. My personal favorite for a number of reasons. Kyle dominated the first 300 of the 400 laps before Jimmie passes him late. But there is a problem. Fuel mileage is an issue. So Jimmie back off, lets Kyle pass him back, and makes it to the end without pitting in 4th place. Kyle can't save the fuel so he has to pit. Afterwards he publically rips TRD over the radio, JGR's major corporate partner saying the "cost" him the race, even though if fuel wasn't a factor, Jimmie would have won going away. Uh-oh. The next week, he has to give the most "I have had my ass chewed out for 5 straight days" apology ever. He looked like an abused puppy. It was great. But the best part? The race was won by Brad K. Or as Kyle called him, "Who?". It was Brad's 2nd cha$e win in the first 3 races. In just his 3rd full season, Brad will win the Sprint Cup championship, something The Next Jeff Gordon hasn't done yet in 8 seasons. It is also his 2nd Top 5 points finish, something Rowdy only has one of in 8 seasons. Do you know "Who?" Brad is now Kyle? Huh? Do you know "Who?" he is yet? 1531. JG24FanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You wouldn't think it was fair to over value Montoya or Stewart for what they accomplished in other forms of racing so why does it make sense to boose Curtis Turner's ranking? We get that he was talented but he was not a Top 10 Cup driver." Don't talk down to me. The Convertible division was a counterpart series not a lesser one. Otherwise why did Turner drive the same car in both 1958 Daytona Beach-Course races? winning the Rag-Top race and finishing 2nd in the Hard-Top race. These blogger opinions are fine, but I listen to Historians and Legends from the sport first. And why should we boost Richard Petty's numbers if the Championship didn't become important until 1986 when it officially dropped the "Grand National" and became simply "Winston Cup",and there is also the fact that Petty has only 60 of his 200 in the Modern era which is the equivalent of counting everything that happened in the Nationwide series before 1982, which would give Ralph Earnhardt a Nationwide Championship. 1532. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think it is the Redskins year. Expecting a starting rookie Quarterback to win the Superbowl is something that never has been done before or be in one for that matter. The Washington Redskins depend a lot on their Quarterback play on offense although they have a very good rookie running back in Alfred Morris. I don't even expect my Packers to go to the Super Bowl. The Green Bay Packers can't handle being in close games right now. Rodgers is great, but special teams is downfall besides that offensive line. Packers have a special team weakness that can't be fixed before the off season because I don't think there are any good kickers available. Mason Crosby is having a pathetic year as a kicker. He is almost guaranteed to miss a least one field goal a game and has problems even making 33 yard field goal. Right now it looks like it is the Patriots year. 1533. 18fan posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the best thing about your opinion about this year's Dover race is that you are dead wrong. Kyle and Jimmie were even before the caution that turned it into a fuel mileage race. When the race went green the first time Jimmie had the lead, the gap was constant and not very big, so Jimmie was in no way going to win the race going away. And what about one of the biggest fails in my mind in recent memory: Jimmie Johnson this year in the Chase. With clearly the best team and best cars all year, he leads the series in EVERY MAJOR CATEGORY and loses the championship solely because of his poor driving at Kansas and Phoenix. Jimmie Johnson, the most mistake prone driver in NASCAR hands down. Remember, Kyle cut him a huge break at Martinsville by not trying to move him. 1534. David posted: 12.16.2012 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(after doing the chicken shit puttering around waiting for him, a la Jeff Gordon)" How could it be "a la Jeff Gordon" when Jeff's incident had not happened yet? Don't take that too seriously. "2) Kansas 2010: Reut's Revenge. Remember Kyle's post race trashing of Reut's driving ability after Bristol. Not only is that a douchebag thing to do, it makes an enemy out of somebody who is not a threat to him potentially being the best in NASCAR. At Kansas, he finally pushes the way too nice Reut over the edge by dumping him early. They fix Reut's car, and Reut side swipes Kyle's car, warping Kyle's rear end geometry. Karma is a bitch. Kyle finishes 21st in the race." I was there!!! 1535. JG24FanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How many teams did Curtis Turner win for in Cup? Answer: 9 ,including the only victory ever for Nash. Most noteworthy wins in Cup: 1956 Southern 500 The first Rockingham event(he won the race very hungover) The first ever Langhorne event The Second ever Langhorne event The Second ever Martinsville event Martinsville in 1951 Columbia in 1954(very tough old dirt track) The second ever Charlote dirt track event(only win in Nash history) Winning with 9 different teams should be enough to at least put him ahead of Denny Hamlin. Quotes from Nascar people about Curtis Turner Junior Johnson:"He was probably the best dirt driver we ever had" Tim Flock:"He was the best Nascar driver ever" Bill France:"He was the best driver in Nascar history"(shortly after Turner passed) Glen Wood:"He was the best driver I ever saw" 1536. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Cowboys win after Big Ben throws a Romo in OT. 1537. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's all good, cjs. "4) Richmond 2012: Wonderboy Vs Rowdy." I think this should be in the top 2 for sure. For him to lose the final Chase spot to the driver that he should have become, who was 15 years older than him, on one of his best tracks, as the defending Richmond winner, with a sizable point lead going in, and then to lose the way he did has to be among the top 2 Kyle Busch meltdowns of all-time. If any meltdown was bigger for Kyle, it was at Dover because of how he called out and embarrassed the team, manufacturer, and engine shop all in one rant. If Jimmie Johnson, who is among the worst fuel mileage drivers in the sport, could save fuel and finish 4th, Kyle has nobody to blame but himself for the Dover race. "The race was won by Brad K. Or as Kyle called him, "Who?"." This actually makes for a great parody of the legendary Abbott & Costello routine: "Who's IN first?" "The Cowboys win after Big Ben throws a Romo in OT." I'm still sick about that game because it means that we might see and hear more Cowboys and Jerry Jones discussions for another month. Was anybody else disgusted at CBS showing Jerry on the TV screen from his owner's suite every 10-15 minutes of that game? I don't know which owner is more loved and is given more unnecessary credit in sports: Richard Childress or Jerry Jones. It's sickening. 1538. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) cjs, I hope that you left Curtis Turner for more reasons than just because of his "underachieving", especially since you controversially left Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (an underachiever in his own right) on your list and in front of Davey Allison. Not to mention the fact that Junior has the same number of majors as Turner, and only two more wins in 285 more starts, and in FAR better, more reliable equipment than Turner ever was in. Plus, despite the large difference in full seasons between the two (13 for Junior, 1 for Turner), Junior only has one more top 10 points finish than Turner, as Junior has 5 top ten points finishes, and Turner has four. Once again, I'm not saying that Junior should be excluded from your top 40 because of these reasons, but I still think it's rather odd that Junior is in your top 40 and Curtis Turner isn't. 1539. 18fan posted: 12.16.2012 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you have to remember that Dave Rogers and Kyle didn't make up their mind on what to do at Dover, whether they wanted to try to save fuel or not. So by the time Kyle started saving fuel it was too late. That is on both of them. I have been reading several things that say that Logano is going to have a breakout season and win multiple races. Now I could be wrong (I really doubted Bowyer's move to MWR which turned out great), but I think Logano will run similarly to the way the 22 car ran this year with a small upgrade. 1540. Paul posted: 12.16.2012 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think Logano will run similarly to the way the 22 car ran this year with a small upgrade." I agree with this. Joey has a higher ceiling than Hornish and will rack up more top fives and top tens, maybe even get a win at Pocono since he always runs well there. That being said, he is often inconsistent and that inconsistency and frequent invisibility will probably cost him a Chase berth. He'll run better than Hornish because his ceiling is better, but I just don't think he's good enough to do that much better than he already has at this point in his career. 1541. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't worry Paul, we are setting up for the Cowboys on the verge of of doing something really meaningful, with plenty of shots of a smiling Jerry Jones, only for Tony Romo to do what Tony Romo does iin big pressure situations, after which we get to see Jerry with that hilariouus "oh shit!"l ook on his face. The Richmond meltdown could have been higher, but for the record I almost put the Atlanta '11 race ahead of it just because of the symbolism of the weekend, the ages, the Series sponsor bonus, and the differences in how they performed. In both cases, when going against Jeff head to head (Richmond) or going against Gordon historically (Atlanta), let's just agree that Kyle Agreed To Lose. 1542. 18fan posted: 12.16.2012 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you have to consider that Kyle has been terrible at Atlanta over his career. But he did run especially awfully that week. 1543. David posted: 12.16.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This actually makes for a great parody of the legendary Abbott & Costello routine: 'Who's IN first?'" HAHAHA!!! 1544. 18fan posted: 12.16.2012 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the Patriots win this game Brady's legend will only grow more. And I'll be extremely upset. 1545. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.16.2012 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Absolutely pathetic effort by the Niners after going up 31-3. Of course as I was typing that, they scored another TD. San Fran really needs to win this one, otherwise Tom joins Joe Cool as QBs to win regular season games after being down 28 points. Plus he will clinch All Day's MVP award. 1546. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.17.2012 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whew! Football just dodged a bullet on that one. 1547. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Don't worry Paul, we are setting up for the Cowboys on the verge of of doing something really meaningful, with plenty of shots of a smiling Jerry Jones, only for Tony Romo to do what Tony Romo does in big pressure situations, after which we get to see Jerry with that hilarious "oh shit!" look on his face." Haha, those are always priceless. I'll always remember after the '07 Divisional playoff when the Cowboys, who should have gone to the Super Bowl that year, lost to a Giants team that did everything it could to miss the playoffs late in the regular season, and that look on Jerry Jones' face. Looking back, his expressions during the final 31 seconds of that game were priceless. On 1st & 10, he looks hopeful and is cheering on his team. On 4th & 11, he looks really uncomfortable and looks as if his heart is racing as he can't stand still any longer. And then after the next play, when Romo threw the season-ending interception to backup cornerback R.W. McQuarters, he just has that "Someone's getting fired over this" expression on his face. Fast forward two years when my Vikings kicked them out of the playoffs, and the Cowboys have two potential Super Bowl teams (they beat the Saints in '09, who went on to win the Super Bowl) that got beat by two of my favorite teams, which makes me one happy camper :) Also, just think about this: Eli Manning has more Super Bowl rings than Tony Romo has playoff wins. Now that's saying something. "In both cases, when going against Jeff head to head (Richmond) or going against Gordon historically (Atlanta), let's just agree that Kyle Agreed To Lose." Good point DSFF. So basically, whether it be head-to-head or in the record books, Jeff has Kyle beat pretty soundly. Personally I would rank the head-to-head one higher, but the fact that Kyle couldn't do what Jeff did at the same age and win $1 million, and then for Jeff to go on to win that very race, is pretty telling. "DSFF, you have to consider that Kyle has been terrible at Atlanta over his career. But he did run especially awfully that week." Fair point 18fan, but sometimes a driver just has to pull through when the pressure is on to be recognized as one of the all-time greats in this sport, which on driving talent alone, Kyle is right up there with the best of them. Take Brad for example. He had never run well at Texas or Phoenix in his entire career, even going on record that Texas is his worst race track. And when the pressure of beating the 5-time champion and winning the championship was hanging in the balance, Brad pulled through and finished near the front both times, got in Jimmie's head during the last race, and went on to win the championship. Kyle has all the talent in the world to do what Brad did last year, and that's why it's so disappointing that he hasn't reached his potential despite having 8 full-time Cup seasons under his belt. Also DSFF, Kyle finished 8th in the points in 2010, not 7th. Although Kyle certainly could have finished 7th or even 6th in the points had he not shot himself in the foot with his "Texas Meltdown: Part I". 1548. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 1:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thank goodness the 49ers realized how to get off the field with some points when it counted late in the 4th quarter. I think, as DSFF said, that football as a whole dodged a HUGE bullet with the 49ers win. A.D. still has a shot at MVP, Brady hasn't quite erased Joe Montana's image from the present-day football media's minds, and Colin Kaepernick is the biggest quarterback story from the Sunday Night Football game with the win. I wasn't so sure about him before, but he really impressed me tonight, and I think Harbaugh made the right decision going with him over Alex Smith, although one team is going to be very happy having signed Smith during the offseason (the Jets perhaps?). Also, I lost some respect for the Patriots defense tonight. When the other team botches the snap, and they wind up running it in for a touchdown on the exact same play, your defense isn't that good. There's no excuse for that play. 1549. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 1:11 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I don't think my point about Kyle came out very clear in the above post. Basically I'm saying that if Brad could find the will to have a great run on some of his worst tracks when the pressure was on him, I see no reason why Kyle couldn't do the same at Atlanta when the pressure of winning $1 million dollars was on him, especially given his experience and talent level. 1550. 18fan posted: 12.17.2012 - 1:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you also can't forget Romo's dropped snap against Seattle in, I believe, 2006. The 49ers need to be careful next week playing the Seahawks in Seattle, where they are always hard to beat. Especially with the way the Seahawks are playing right now. I know they've played some bad teams (Arizona and Buffalo in the last two weeks) but they've taken care of business in those games and have a shot to win the division. The Giants embarrassing loss to Atlanta was the worst shutout loss ever by the defending Super Bowl champion. They along with the Ravens are fading fast, and the Ravens offense didn't seem to improve with the firing of Cam Cameron this week. Either the Ravens, who have lost 3 in a row, or the Giants, who have lost 4 out of 6, will get a win when they play each other this coming week. The Bengals need to beat both Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but if they can they will make the playoffs and likely win the division. 1551. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 2:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct 18fan, Romo's infamous botched hold occurred in the '06-'07 Wildcard Playoffs against the Seahawks. And speaking of the Seahawks, they have two tough games coming up against the division rivals 49ers and Rams, having lost to both teams in their earlier meetings. In fact, the Rams haven't lost in any of their 5 division games this season, including their tie against the 49ers in their first meeting this season. The Seahawks look good right now being one game above five 8-6 teams for the 1st wild card spot, but certainly one or even two losses to end the season could put an end to their surprisingly good season. But they have won 5 of their last 6 games, including wins over two 8-6 teams (Vikings, Bears) and putting up 50+ points against the Cardinals and Bills, who aren't good teams, but still impressive. The have good momentum going into the final two games, being led by a 3rd round quarterback in Russell Wilson (who not so surprisingly isn't being mentioned for Rookie of the Year as much as Luck and RG3), and maybe that and their ability to score a lot of points will help them reach the playoffs, and possibly even win the division if they win out and the 49ers lose their next two games. From what I've heard, the firing of Cam Camerson was an emotional firing, and by that I mean that the Ravens' personnel let their emotions of their recent struggles get the best of them and influence their decision-making, which resulted in them firing their offensive coordinator just weeks before the playoffs. Their team is beginning to struggle with all of their injuries and what looks like a fatigued offense that can't carry the team anymore, and I think they'll be one-and-done in the playoffs, as they clinched a playoff berth with the Steelers losing to the Cowboys. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bengals beat the Ravens and Steelers, and the Ravens also lose to the Giants (who have to be disgusted with their performance today, and now have the pressure of missing the playoffs bearing down on them), resulting in the Bengals winning the division as well. 1552. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 3:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF, a thought just occurred to me. I don't know if you thought of this before, but do you see the irony in Brad and Joey being teammates next year? It's not just because one driver is your favorite active driver while the other is your least favorite, but it's also who they represent in terms of driver comparisons. At least for you, Brad represents Dale Earnhardt as he is your favorite driver, while Joey represents Geoff Bodine in that he is your least favorite driver (and as you stated before, has actually surpassed Bodine as being your least favorite Yankee driver). And despite all of their differences and who the past drivers that they somewhat represent, they will be teammates next year. Could you imagine Earnhardt and Bodine being teammates in '87, the year after Earnhardt won his first championship since both of them had gone full-time in Cup? Or better yet, could you imagine Earnhardt LOBBYING for Bodine and telling Richard Childress "Hey, I want this guy to be my teammate." Despite Bodine's talents, there wasn't a snowball's chance in Hell that that situation would ever happen, which only makes Brad lobbying for Joey even funnier, albeit sort of a "so awful, it makes me laugh out of sadness and frustration" kind of funny. So think of it this way: The present-day "Dale Earnhardt" lobbied his car owner to hire the underachieving present-day "Geoff Bodine". Oh gosh, I can't help but shake my head at this one. It's so awful, it's funny. 1553. Anonymous posted: 12.17.2012 - 3:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Penske Racing will definitely have two opposites working together next year in Brad and Joey. I think they will work together well, as Joey already played into the wingman role in the last few races of this year (rightfully so since he was not a real factor in any of those races). I just don't like the attitude Joey has picked up, and it's really been that way since Charlotte 2011 after the Nationwide race when he trash-talked Trevor Bayne by comparing his performance to Stenhouse's while ignoring his own lack of performance compared to Kyle and Denny in Cup. 1554. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.17.2012 - 11:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So after all the reports that the 49ers were toying with the Patriots last night and all but deliberately let them come back... Are the 49ers the best team in the NFL regardless of records? 1555. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2012 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you mentioned my not putting Curtis Turner on my list because he underachieved, and compared that to Dale, Jr., and putting him ahead of Davey Alliosn on my list (by one spot). I've got news for you. Davey was an underachiever most of his career, except for the 40 races he had Larry McReynolds as his crew chief in 1991-'92 prior to his Pocono crash of 1992, and Dale, Jr. has also underachieved, though I still place a significant amount of blame on that to his sports car fire of 2004. Just look at how he was doing prior to that and compare it to what he did after that the rest of that season, because he wasn't nearly the force after that on an overall basis as he was prior to that, and I think that carried over for at least two or three years. But Curtis Turner, if he was as good as everyone in the know says he was, massively underachieved. And also Paul, the Patriots defense has been terrible the last three or four years, so their performance (or lack of it) last night against a good team should really come as no surprise. When they come up against a team with a good offense, they know they're going to give up a lot of points (their defensive performance against Houston the week before was a one-time thing, mainly because Houston was looking ahead to the game yesterday vs. the Colts). They just think they can outscore the opposition, and their luck temporarily ran out last night. And the only reason they got back into the game was because the 49ers let them get back into the game, because by playing soft, they allowed Tom Brady to get into a groove, and it almost cost them the game. But remember that this is a Patriot team that also lost to the Cardinals at home and went 1-3 vs. the NFC West, including 0-2 at home. And also, you refer to Joey Logano as having a higher ceiling than Sam Hornish, Jr. Frankly, that's not saying very much, but considering his track record at Pocono, and we all know how much Penske has always put into running well there, considering that's his home track and where he scored his first big victory on an oval as a car owner with Mark Donohue's win in the first Pocono 500 in 1971, it should come as no real surprise that Joey may get in contention to win there. I believe that, other than Indy, Penske has put more emphasis on winning at Pocono than at any other track. But I think Logano will struggle to better last year's points finish, because he was with a better team in 2012 than he's going to be in 2013, so if he finsihes outside the top 20, it won't be a big surprise. But I won't reveal anything for another 1-2 weeks as far as predictions for the 2013 season. 1556. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.17.2012 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I try to stay upbeat. If Bodine became Dale's teammate in '87, that would mean Childress saw the need to have a multi car team 10 years earlier than he eventually did, meaning he had foresight, something he quite frankly never had much of. Heck, I always struggled with the fact that Dale and Rusty were good friends during their heyday. Nowadays I realize that is pretty cool, but Rusty was always the guy standing in Dale's way of greatness. I couldn't believe they hung out so much. If I had found out Dale had lobbied for Bodine as a teammate? Yikes. Dale used to practice bowhunting on cardboard cutouts of Goeff. I've had to pretty much resign myself to the fact that Brad likes Joey personally (ouch) and sees him as having the ability to do big things in Cup (double ouch). Yes I would prefer if he ran over cardboard cutouts of Joey with the tank he is planning on buying. But I have learned to look past this. 1557. David posted: 12.17.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale used to practice bowhunting on cardboard cutouts of Geoff." He also shot at a remote control car (owned by his son) that was painted like Geoff Bodine's #5 Levi Garrett Chevrolet. 1558. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2012 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think the poster who thought that Earnhardt and Bodine might have become teammates was thinking that might have happened at Hendrick, not Childress. Remember that there was discussion that Earnhardt might want to leave Childress in 1985, just as Hendrick was forming a second team, so that combo would have happened at Hendrick, not Childress. And as for Brad liking the fact that Joey Logano is now a teammate at Penske, remember that the #2 team was getting virtually no help at all from the #22 team because Brad did not have a teammate at any time last year capable of helping his team out in any way, nor was the driver of the #22 car, whoever it was, capable of running up front, so any help at all that the #22 team could give the #2 would be a vast improvement over last year. Joey Logano may not be that good, but he's a vast improvement over either of the drivers Penske had in the #22 last year. Brad Keselowski knows that, which is why he's glad to see Jeoy Logano as his teammate for 2013, because at least he's more than barely competent, which is more than I can say for either driver in the #22 car last year, because I don't think that either A.J. Allmendinger or Sam Hornish, Jr. are really that competent when it comes to stock car racing, and never have believed they were that competent at all. In fact, Ryan Blaney was closer to winning in the Nationwide Series for Penske (at Texas) than Hornish ever got last year. 1559. murb posted: 12.17.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, my favorite driver, Joey Logano. I said I wouldn't speak about him anymore for the rest of the offseason, but this conversation is too interesting. Obviously, for Brad and the 2 team, Joey is a major upgrade over Allmendinger and Hornish as far as wingmen go. I like AJ and Sam, and I think both of them have improved in huge ways since their beginnings in Cup, but I really don't know if they are cutout to be the wingman for a champion teammate. The thing that will make Joey a good wingman is that he has been in the spotlight over at JGR for all these years, and he has somewhat been playing the wingman role already for Denny and Kyle (although to a much lesser extent). So as much as it hurts me to say it, I do think that it was a smart move for Brad and Penske to get Joey. He won't be a threat at all to the 2 team's potential juggernaut status, and he's had experience as a wingman before. As for whether or not Joey will have success at Penske, here's what I think. I see Joey ending up with a Jeremy Mayfield type career. Probably about 5 wins (maybe more if he has a Newman-in-2003-esque fluke year), and a couple decent points finishes. Obviously, I really don't care for him personally, but I will admit that he does have a bit of potential to do at least a little bit in Cup. But as for the "Sliced Bread" or "The Next Jeff Gordon" monikers, he's clearly not gonna be that. He doesn't have the mind or collectiveness to be a champion, in my opinion. But can he be a good second-tier driver who will get decent results for a team? I think he can. Okay, my praising of Joey's potential is over now. Wow, that was painful to write, lol 1560. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had Childress decided 10 years earlier that expanding to two cars would be a good idea (which would make him ahead of the times for once), it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he had pursued Bodine. Remember, he also signed Jeff Green despite Green and Harvick admitting to not liking each other and refusing to work with each other. Add in Robby Gordon, and you have a lot of "fun" going on behind-the-scenes at RCR from late '01 to early '03. I just wish there had been a camera crew documenting RCR that season, which would make for better TV than Michael Waltrip's latest money-making scheme. And didn't Earnhardt and Skinner dislike each other as well? But if they had teamed up at HMS in '85 like cjs hypothesized, I can see them at least ignoring each other and not wrecking each other (and by "not wrecking each other", I mean Earnhardt not wrecking Bodine and Bodine not "retaliating"), similar to how Gordon and Junior have acted around each other at HMS. If Rick Hendrick was smart, which compared to Richard "I'm going to hire three drivers that hate each other and have them share a race shop" Childress, he is very smart, he would have Earnhardt and Bodine in separate shops like how Junior Johnson had his two teams in the early '80s. He probably wouldn't like that because he prefers to have his teams work together, as evidenced by him going along with Randy Dorton when Dorton suggested having all engines housed in one building, rather than in separate shops (similar to Formula One), which is probably why he wouldn't sign Earnhardt in the first place. cjs alluded to this a while ago, but I think there's some tension between Gordon and Junior, not NEARLY as bad as Earnhardt and Bodine, but I think there's an element of dislike between the two. Gordon won't admit to it because it's not his style to call drivers out (unless you're Clint Bowyer) or say "I don't like [driver]", a la Kevin Harvick, but that's the message that I've picked up over time. I think the fact that they are never seen talking to each other in the garage like they are with their other teammates is pretty telling. Also cjs, I'm not sure you can say Ryan Blaney came closer to winning last year than Hornish ever did. Hornish finished 2nd at Montreal despite being bulldozed by Michael "The brake pedal is the one on the right, right?" McDowell and getting caught up in a random wreck afterwards. Had he done to Justin Allgaier what Allgaier did to Villeneuve (his teammate) earlier that lap, Hornish probably would have won that race. He had a chance to move Allgaier out of the way through the final turn, but raced him clean instead and wound up with a 2nd place finish as a result of his niceness. Blaney had a great car near the end of that Texas race and probably would have caught and passed Harvick had there been another 10 laps to that race, but based on their respective margins of victory in their runner-up finishes, I have to give Hornish the edge as being closer to winning in 2012 than Blaney. 1561. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Hornish's second place finish at Montreal was more a factor of luck than anything else. It certainly wasn't from performance, though he did have a good car. Remember that about 6-8 drivers had legitimate chances of winning that race in the late stages, including guys like Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. (?), Jacques Villeneuve, Alex Tagliani, as well as Hornish and Justin Allgaier, who eventually won. Even Danica Patrick had a legitimate shot at winning that one. But when the roulette wheel known as NASCAR on the road courses ended for that day, Allgaier ended up winning with Hornish, Villeneuve, and Elliott Sadler (any more need for the roulette analagy) right behind him. Hornish really did not perform that well, and in his second and third place finishes, he really never was in serious contention to win. But I believe Ryan Blaney would have caught and passed Harvick at Texas if there was another caution, or if the race had been 3-5 laps longer. Hornish and A.J. Allmendinger are/were barely more than competent in stock car racing (if they were even that), and while I don't think Joey Logano is that good, he's a vast improvement over those two in the #22 car. 1562. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As much as I dislike Joey, I think this is a perfect combination in spite of the fact that he and Brad are the present-day Geoff Bodine and Dale Earnhardt, respectively. Brad obviously likes Joey because he wouldn't request him to be his teammate otherwise, and Joey isn't going to steal Brad's thunder either. I think Joey will run very well at Pocono, the road courses, Bristol, and maybe the restrictor plate tracks, but otherwise won't steal the spotlight away from Brad and will be more than willing to work with the defending champion whenever necessary in 2013. So in a way, this was a great decision...for Brad's sake. As far as Penske Racing, I'm not sure if it's going to benefit them all that much, but at the very least it'll make Brad look even better by considerably outperforming a teammate. Good call, Brad. And in Allmendinger's defense, he was picking up in his final few races for Penske and seemed to be building some chemistry with his team. In fact, he was up to speed at Penske almost a whole year quicker than Brad did in 2011, so I don't think it's fair to say that Joey is so much better than A.J. because A.J. was just getting into a rhythm at Penske when he got suspended. If Joey builds a rhythm with Penske quicker than A.J. did, I'll concede the argument, but based on the learning curve from past Penske drivers, I think we have to wait and see how Joey does before we put A.J. in the same category as Hornish. Speaking of the Dinger, I hope he signs with BK Racing for 2013, possibly in a 3rd car alongside Cassill and Kvapil. I was impressed by his runs with Phoenix Racing, including a 5th place run at Kansas before suffering one of many tire blowouts during the race. A.J. strikes me as a driver who is capable of getting the most out of his equipment in spite of his limited stock car experience, based on how well he ran at Red Bull and RPM before getting canned. Add in him building a rhythm at Penske almost a full year quicker than Brad did and his few runs with Phoenix, and I think he can do a very good job at BK Racing. He may not be the kindest driver on equipment, but his ability to get good results in spite of his driving style, equipment, and experience is impressive to say the least. If he goes to BK in 2013, I think he can rack of a lot of top 20 finishes, maybe even get a couple top tens as well. 1563. Paul posted: 12.17.2012 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I'm not dismissing that Hornish's 2nd place finish at Montreal was more luck than anything, but the fact that he managed to finish 2nd despite getting caught up in two late race accidents speaks very well in his favor. Who knows, if he hadn't suffered any damage or lost positions in that process, he may have been in position to overtake Villeneuve on the final restart and go on to win, just as Allgaier did. Also, I wouldn't sell Allgaier short in terms of his road course talent. Sure his win at Montreal was mostly based on luck and his near-win at Road America '11 was based on the same thing, but that's what Turner's Nationwide cars have always been like. Of Turner's 6 Nationwide wins, only once did they not luck their way into victory and that was Piquet's win at Road America. If Turner's cars were faster, they would have more wins, but the fact that Allgaier has been in position to win twice on road courses, in spite of his equipment, I think proves that he is good on the road courses. If his cars are faster next year, provided that he re-signs with Turner, I think you'll see him contend for more wins, including on the road courses. 1564. Talon64 posted: 12.17.2012 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Allgaier won at NJMP in ARCA back in 2008, beating Colin Braun who was a mid-race substitute for Ricky Stenhouse Jr. 6 of the drivers who finished in the top 10 and 8 drivers overall in that race competed full time in Nationwide and Trucks in 2012. http://www.racing-reference.info/race/2008_Loud_Energy_Drink_150/A 1565. cjs3872 posted: 12.17.2012 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, Allgaier beat a road racing expert filling in for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. at NJMP a few years ago, and last year, Stenhouse nearly wins at Montreal on his own? Now how pathetic does that make the field at Montreal in this past year's Nationwide race look? Stenhouse can't cut it in ARCA's road course event in 2008, yet almost wins at Montreal this past season. Certainly he took some road racng classes, as all the NASCAR drivers do when it comes to road racing, but for him to nearly win at Montreal makes everyone else in that race look bad. And I only say that because he was taken out of the car during the ARCA race you referenced. If he had run the full race, it wouldn't look so bad for the Nationwide field at Montreal. Saying that, I have a theory as to why drivers duch as Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Kasey Kahne, and even Clint Bowyer can do so well on the road courses, and it really shows at Sonoma. As crazy as it sounds, I think their background racing on dirt tracks gives them an edge on the road courses because they're used to sliding the car more than those that grew up on asphalt. As a result, they can slide the car coming off the corner more than most of the other NASCAR drivers can, and I think it gives them an advantage. And I think the Dillon brothers may also benefit in the future for the same reason, and I think that's one reason why Trevor Bayne began running some dirt track races on his weekends off, because racing on dirt gives the drivers more car control, and that is an indisputeable advantage, regardless of whether it's on dirt tracks or in off-road racing, and the car control they gain undoubtedly helps on short tracks, flat tracks, and road courses. Just look at the three drivers who are the most successful among the active drivers on the NASCAR circuit. All three of them have a dirt racing background, Gordon and Stewart on dirt tracks, and Jimmie Johnson in off-road racing. And of course, that same racing background helped the legends of the Indianapolis 500 gain their fame, as each of the first eight 3-time Indianapolis 500 winners except for Rick Mears began on dirt tracks and Mears began in off-road racing. Drivers like Foyt, Rutherford, the Unsers, Johncock, and their contemporaries and predecessors raced on dirt. In fact, Mario Andretti even believes that his dirt racing background gave him an advantage when he raced on the F1 circuit from the mid 70 to the early 80s, winning the 1978 World Championship, even though he didn't have very much experience racing those cars and on those tracks, because of the car control he got from racing on dirt. 1566. BON GORDON posted: 12.18.2012 - 1:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "cjs alluded to this a while ago, but I think there's some tension between Gordon and Junior, not NEARLY as bad as Earnhardt and Bodine, but I think there's an element of dislike between the two. Gordon won't admit to it because it's not his style to call drivers out (unless you're Clint Bowyer) or say "I don't like [driver]", a la Kevin Harvick, but that's the message that I've picked up over time. I think the fact that they are never seen talking to each other in the garage like they are with their other teammates is pretty telling." I honestly don't think that Jr. and Gordon hate eachother. I've seen them talk to eachother in the garage plenty of times. Sure I don't think they are friends. They will very rarely if ever hang out with one another. They are just two different people with different interests. Yes, Gordon and Jr. have had their problems at Talladega and this year at Michigan. They have both even said that they like to race eachother hard on the racetrack every now and again to get the fans cheering and talking. But listening to Jr. talk about how his dad introduced Gordon to him and how he says Gordon is one of the best ever, he definately respects Gordon and I think Gordon respects Dale Jr. as well. I know Gordon does not care for Kurt Busch and never used to like Robby Gordon too much either. 1567. Paul posted: 12.18.2012 - 2:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know Gordon does not care for Kurt Busch" What's funny about that is that Jeff gets along with Kyle Busch very well, even though his on-track demeanor is more closely associated to Kurt than to Kyle. After Jeff straight-up beat Kyle at Phoenix in 2011 (by the way DSFF, this should have been in your "Top Ten Kyle Busch Meltdowns" list, but knowing you it was probably 11th, lol), Kyle was surprisingly very classy in his interview afterwards, having been robbed of a "triple crown weekend" by getting passed in the closing laps, and gave congrats to his former #5 team (who is now the #24 team) on their win. Then afterwards, he called Jeff his hero and basically said that if he had to get beat by one guy, he's glad that it was Jeff Gordon (which I'm sure doesn't help his case in the "EPIC" Gordon/Kyle debate). That and the fact that they were teammates for three years tells me that they are friends off the track. Plus, Kyle was the only JGR driver who didn't call Jeff out after his Phoenix '12 incident and say he should be parked, even though he had more right than anyone as he had been parked one year earlier for a similar retaliation wreck. Kyle may be one of the least likely drivers to give credit to another team following a race, and for him to credit Jeff and the #24 team that day speaks volumes for his level of respect for Jeff. 1568. Jim Davis posted: 12.18.2012 - 7:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know Gordon does not care for Kurt Busch..." This raises an interesting question. What Cup drivers does Kurt Busch consider friends? His brother Kyle of course, but who else? 1569. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.18.2012 - 7:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was watching some highlights of old Superbowls and let me say that even though Fran Tarkenton was a very good Quarterback he totally sucked in his three Superbowl performances. Its as if he Lost his Nerve during those big game performances. 1570. cjs3872 posted: 12.18.2012 - 8:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin, the problem with Tarkenton in the Super Bowls was two-fold. First, he did not have a strong arm. That, combined with the fact that he really didn't have a great deep threat meant that the defenses he played against never feared the deep ball like those same teams feared when they played the Cowboys, or even the Rams in the Steelers' case with Vince Ferragamo. Because of that, the teams the Vikings faced could condense their defense because they didn't have to worry about getting beat deep. Tarkenton could stand the pressure as good as anyone else could, he just didn't have the arm strength, nor the deep threats to make the defenses he played against play them more honestly. 1571. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.18.2012 - 9:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anybody else look at these fat old coots and think to himself "How the heck did he play quarterback?!" 1572. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.18.2012 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tarkenton also played some really good teams in the Big Game. He lost to the Dolphins just one year removed from their undefeated season, the Steelers in the first of their four Super Bowls in 6 seasons, and then the one Madden Raiders team that didn't gag in the playoffs. 1573. Paul posted: 12.18.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What Cup drivers does Kurt Busch consider friends?" Aside from Kyle, I know that Brad has said that he gets along with Kurt and I think he gets along with Kenseth as well. And based on their history of tandem drafting together, I'd say he and Regan Smith are friends as well, but Kurt also kind of threw him under the bus after he signed with Furniture Row when he said that FRR wanted a driver that could win races for them (last I checked, Regan has FRR's only win). 1574. Paul posted: 12.18.2012 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He lost to the Dolphins just one year removed from their undefeated season" It's also worth mentioning that a lot of '72-'73 Dolphins players believe that their '73 team was better than the undefeated '72 team, despite losing two games in '73. It's a shame that that Dolphins team started to come apart after '74 when Paul Warfield, Larry Csonka, and Jim Kiick left for the Memphis Southmen of the World Football League, and pretty much handed the Steelers the remainder of the decade in terms of dominance. "and then the one Madden Raiders team that didn't gag in the playoffs." What's funny about that is the Raiders shouldn't have even made the Super Bowl as they should have lost to the Patriots in the AFC Wild Card game. They were saved (and for once were on the right side of the officials' call) when Patriots defensive lineman Ray Hamilton struck Ken Stabler in the head and was called for roughing the passer late in the 4th quarter, giving the Raiders a 1st down when it should have been 4th & 18. Oh well, the "Tuck Rule Game" evened the score between the two teams. 1575. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.18.2012 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While Fran Tarkenton was an issue why the Vikings lost those Super Bowls, it was deeper than that. The Vikings famed defense "Purple People eaters" was a problem in all 4 super bowls including the 3 super Bowls Fran Tarkenton was with the Vikings. The Vikings Defense was easy to run against in all 4 Super Bowls. Len Dawson mentioned that in the past even. The fact is the Vikings defensive line was undersized. A good example of that is the final Super Bowl the Vikings went to town. The Oakland Raiders Offensive line had a huge advantage of the Vikings defensive line in terms size. One of the reasons Jim Marshall isn't in the Hall of Fame was because of his super bowl play that was mentioned on NFL Network's top 10 NFL players not in the hall of fame. There is one thing cjs3872 didn't address with Fran Tarkenton's Super Play. The Vikings depended on running the football besides passing it. Before the Mel Blount rule in 1978, NFL teams in the 1970's relied a lot on running the football. The 1970's was not exactly a pass friendly era before the Mel Blount rule. The Mel Blount rule is why pass interference exists. Running the Football was a problem because the teams the Vikings had to face in the Super Bowl. The Dolphin's "No Name" defense was still at its peaks. The Vikings also had to face the Steelers "Steel Curtain" defense during its peak. What the Dolphins and the Steelers defense did was force the Vikings into a one dimensional team. 1576. 18fan posted: 12.18.2012 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch Motorsports announced the signing of Parker Kligerman to drive their car in the Nationwide Series. 1577. David posted: 12.18.2012 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chad Little is now the competition director for the Truck Series, replacing Wayne Auton, who will move up to be the Nationwide Series director. Joe Balash will now be the International Competition Liasion. 1578. cjs3872 posted: 12.18.2012 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Packerfan4ver, the Vikings were one of the few successful teams in the early and mid 70s that did NOT rely on running the ball, mostly because that had Fran Tarkenton. Most of the other successful teams of that period did, but the Vikings, Raiders, and Cowboys were the three teams of that period tht relied more on passing than running. And let's also not forget that, although they had Chuck Foreman, who was one of the best backs during that period, couldn't run the ball in the Super Bowls to save their lives. But I again go back to the fact that the teams they played condensed their defenses because they never feared getting beat deep by the Packers like they feared the Cowboys and even some of the Rams teams of that period. And because the defenses had no reason to fear getting beat deep, they could stuff the line and stop the running game. The Raiders were also known for doing that, though in their case, it was because they had superb cover corners. But if you're playing defense against a team that you don't think can beat you deep, like the Vikings of that period, you can just go all-out to stop the short game, because you don't fear getting beat deep. And yes, the Vikings were physically overmatched in two of the Super Bowls, but in Super Bowl VIII, they were considered to have a relatively equal chance, remembering just how close they came to beating the Dolphins when they met during the 1972 season, but Don Shula devised perhaps the greatest offensive game plan in Super bowl history, as he turned the Vikings own defensive stengths against them. If you watch the Super Bowl VIII highlight film, you'll know exactly what I mean. And by the way, that was another problem the Vikings had in the Super Bowls. Bud Grant was getting constantly outcoached and outmaneuvered. Hank Stram did that to them, and Shula did that to them. But they were physically overmatched in their third and fourth Super Bowl appearances, and only Steeler special teams mistakes kept them in Super Bowl IX as long as they were in it, and they were simply blown off the Rose Bowl field when they played the Raiders. 1579. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.18.2012 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was also looking at Highlights of Superbowl XII and let me say that that game was the epitome of a train wreck as there were fumbles & turnovers galore it looked liked something out of a bad comedy movie. 1580. Talon64 posted: 12.18.2012 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Talon64, Allgaier beat a road racing expert filling in for Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. at NJMP a few years ago, and last year, Stenhouse nearly wins at Montreal on his own? Now how pathetic does that make the field at Montreal in this past year's Nationwide race look? Stenhouse can't cut it in ARCA's road course event in 2008, yet almost wins at Montreal this past season. Certainly he took some road racng classes, as all the NASCAR drivers do when it comes to road racing, but for him to nearly win at Montreal makes everyone else in that race look bad. And I only say that because he was taken out of the car during the ARCA race you referenced. If he had run the full race, it wouldn't look so bad for the Nationwide field at Montreal." Stenhouse wasn't 100% after flipping in a USAC race the week before, which is why Braun subbed in for him. You never really know who's going to take well to road courses, unless they come from a road-racing background like Marcos Ambrose. Brad Keselowski could be the one with back-to-back Glen wins instead of Ambrose, although I'm not sure how much dirt racing he did before his NASCAR career. 1581. Paul posted: 12.18.2012 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Trevor Bayne will be sponsored by Cargill for some races next season. No number was given, but Roush says that they're looking for one or two more sponsors to fill out the remaining dates, so it sounds as if Cargill will be the sponsor for most of the races next season. This is good for Trevor as this only increases his chances of actually running the full schedule, while likely having Travis Pastrana as a teammate in a 2nd Roush car. As 18fan previously mentioned, Parker Kligerman will drive for KBM next year in the Nationwide Series, in a renumbered #77 car. Not sure whether KBM will continue to run the #54 with Kurt or Kyle Busch in 2013, or if the #54 has now become the #77 without a 2nd car. However, Kligerman will compete next season without crew chief Mike Beam, as Beam has ironically signed with Kligerman's former ride, the #7 Truck driven by John Wes Townley next season. Like Kligerman, Townley had been reported to have signed with his new team about a month ago, but has now officially signed with Red Horse Racing for 2013. Both Jamie McMurray and Juan Pablo Montoya will participate in the 51st running of the Rolex 24 at Daytona, driving for Chip Ganassi. Montoya will team up with Grand-Am veterans Scott Pruett and Memo Rojas, along with IndyCar driver Charlie Kimball, while McMurray will team up with IndyCar drivers Scott Dixon and Dario Franchitti, and sports car veteran Joey Hand. 1582. cjs3872 posted: 12.18.2012 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay Talon64, thanks for informing me about the reasons why Stenhouse couldn't go the distance at NJMP in 2008. And by the way, I wonder if Stenhouse might end up being another one of those drivers that ends up being better at road courses than we might think because of his dirt track experience, because I do think the car control gained by a dirt racing background is espcially helpful on road courses, with the flat and even off-camber corners that you get, being able to slide a car can be a distinct advantage. After all, although many talk about how it's advantageous to drive into a corner hard, especialy when you're trying to pass someone, the passes are actually made coming off the corner, because the sooner you get on the gas, the more speed you're going to have that the guy you're trying to pass, and if you can carry more speed off the corner, you should be able to pass the guy in front of you, and that's where I think those with dirt track experience have an advantage on a road course. 1583. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.19.2012 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really looking forward to seeing what some of these drivers can do next year, particularly Almirola and Stenhouse. 1584. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2012 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've now revealed who drivers 11-20 are on my all-time list. Previously, I revealed drivers 21-40, and they go, in order, like this: Fred Lorenzen, Dale Jarrett, Buddy Baker, Benny Parsons, Jow Weatherly, Matt Kenseth, Terry Labonte, Bobby Labonte, Ricky Rudd, Jim Paschal, Harry Gant, Geoff Bodine, Rex White, Jeff Burton, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Davey Allison, Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Neil Bonnett, and Denny Hamlin. Well, here are the drivers I've listed 11-20 on my list of the best ever in NASCAR's top series: 11. Buck Baker 12. Fireball Roberts 13. Rusty Wallace 14. Tony Stewart 15. Lee Petty 16. Bill Elliott 17. Mark Martin 18. Tim Flock 19. Ned Jarrett 20. Bobby Isaac The top ten will be revealed over the weekend, more than likely. After that, I'll work on predictions for the 2013 season. 1585. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2012 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Was Super Bowl XII the one played in the SuperDome between the pre Elway Broncos and Cowboys, the one that was the equivalent of the 1991 stretch run for the Winston Cup? Yeah, the highlight films of that one are hard to watch. And those are the highlights! 1586. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Correct, DSFF. Craig Morton was the quarterback of the Broncos in that game, but before that he was swapping starting quarterback duties with Roger Staubach with the Cowboys. Tom Landry had them on a rotation for a couple years, making it to two Super Bowls ('70 and '71) and winning the latter Super Bowl (if you ever want to see a horrendous Super Bowl, watch highlights of Super Bowl V from the '70 season between the Colts and Cowboys). When the Cowboys picked Staubach to be their quarterback, Morton left for the Giants and then wound up with the Broncos, so the storyline for Super Bowl XII was "Quarterback vs. Ex-Quarterback". Needless to say, Morton played terribly, going 4-for-15 for 39 yards with 4 interceptions, and failed to redeem himself for his Super Bowl V loss to his former team. To add insult to injury, there was a quote made by somebody after the game that read "Craig Morton had always wanted to win a Super Bowl for the Cowboys, and yesterday he did." Ouch! 1587. startandparkfan posted: 12.19.2012 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Do you think that the website needs a page on NASCAR Mexico and ARCA Trucks? I do. Maybe we could also do the Stadium Super Trucks. 1588. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch will be running 20-24 Nationwide races in 2013, taking his Monster Energy sponsorship and driving for JGR. No word yet on the number (#18 or #54), but it's possible that he could drive for both JGR and for his own team next season in a 2nd KBM car alongside Parker Kligerman. Kyle will also drive a part-time Truck schedule in his #51, alongside his new driver Joey Coulter. Normally I'd be against having a Cup driver run this many lower series races, but since he'll be doing a lot of it with his own team and can help his new drivers Coulter and Kligerman in their growth up the NASCAR ladder by working closely with them, I don't have that much of an issue with this. That being said, I don't think having this many distractions is good for Kyle if he wants to win or at least contend for the Sprint Cup title next year, even if he will be JGR's #1 focus. 1589. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2012 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And Paul, Morton was just as bad in Super Bowl V as he was seven years later, as his two interceptions set up all the Colts' points in the second half, though it was not completely his fault, as he was under duress that entire game. He also had an intentional grounding penalty early that really didn't amount to much. But the Cowboys offense was totally inept for practically that entire game, and their only TD was set up by a fumble recovery on the play that knocked John Unitas out of that game with a rib injury. That's not to say the Colts weren't terrible, because they were by committing seven turnovers themselves, two of which came in the end zone, wiping out potential scoring opportunities, but the Cowboys' offense was totally inept in that game. 1590. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2012 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(if you ever want to see a horrendous Super Bowl, watch highlights of Super Bowl V from the '70 season between the Colts and Cowboys)" The only redeeming factor from that game is that it allows one of the true members of the QB Mount Rushmore, Johnny Unitas, to wear the label of "starting QB for a Super Bowl winner" even though he only played a little bit, was way on the downside of his career, and the heavy lifting was done by the defense (led by Mad Dog Mike Curtis who, as we have discussed, is probably the most bad ass motherf****r that has ever lived), and the Colts' other QB whose name slips my mind at the moment, the one who started Super Bowl III, was badly outplayed by Namath, and was almost rescued in the 4th quarter when they finally put a banged up Johnny U in. Why did Don Shula wait so long? In a related note, Shula is 2-4 in the big game. Nevermind the fact that Johnny U started for and won two pre Super Bowl championships and was by far the best player on those teams. People love to downplay all the NFL championships played before the Super Bowl for some reason. Bart Starr is a victim of this too as his first 3 championships were won before the Super Bowl. Ironically his most famous win, the Ice Bowl victory over the Cowboys when it was -273 degrees outside in Green Bay with a wind chill of -459 degrees (bonus points to any fellow science nerds who can tell me the significance of those two temperatures) when the Tundra truly was Frozen, totally overshadows his win two weeks later in the second Super Bowl. As much of a man crush as I have on Joe Cool, this whole "Brady needs one more Super Bowl win to match Bradshaw and Montana for most championships as a QB" thing is false. He needs two more to match Bart. For the record, the real Mount Rushmore of QBs is Otto Graham, Johnny U, Bart Starr, and Montana. It is not, as BSPN seems to think, Marino, Elway, Favre, and Manning. First off, putting Elway next to those other 3 is an insult to Elway. Those other 3 only belong on the Mount Rushmore of QBs that are GREAT to have on your team..... unless it is the playoffs. Well, actually Favre belongs on other Mount Rushmore's too. QBs who can turn the ball over at the worst possible moment. QBs who can make an entire fanbase that worshipped him for over a decade hate him and forget about him. And QBs who don't need cell phones with cameras and pic messaging capabilities. 1591. David posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bart Starr is a victim of this too as his first 3 championships were won before the Super Bowl. Ironically his most famous win, the Ice Bowl victory over the Cowboys when it was -273 degrees outside in Green Bay with a wind chill of -459 degrees (bonus points to any fellow science nerds who can tell me the significance of those two temperatures)" -273 degrees Celsius (459 degrees Fahrenheit) is equivalent to 0 degrees Kelvin. This is known as absolute zero, the lowest possible temperature (theoretically). 1592. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and the heavy lifting was done by the defense (led by Mad Dog Mike Curtis who, as we have discussed, is probably the most bad ass motherf****r that has ever lived)" Damn straight! It's an absolute joke that Curtis isn't in the Hall of Fame, or even on the ballot for this year's HOF. Not that he cares since he has been very successful in his post-football career and doesn't need a plaque to tell him how great he was (two things that D.W. failed at doing following his racing career). "and the Colts' other QB whose name slips my mind at the moment, the one who started Super Bowl III, was badly outplayed by Namath, and was almost rescued in the 4th quarter when they finally put a banged up Johnny U in." Earl Morrall. He was ranked #1 on NFL Network's "Top Ten Backup Quarterbacks" list. Apparently a lot of players on that Colts team thought he should have started Super Bowl V because they thought he was as good as Johnny U (at least at that point in Unitas' career). "the real Mount Rushmore of QBs is Otto Graham, Johnny U, Bart Starr, and Montana." Totally agree with this. I would also list John Elway and "Slingin'" Sammy Baugh as honorable mentions to the QB Mount Rushmore. "QBs who can turn the ball over at the worst possible moment." There are two plays that will always stick out in my mind when I think of Favre: His INT against the Giants that allowed the G-Men to prevent Brady from winning a 4th Super Bowl in what turned out to be Favre's final play as a Packer, and his "across the body" INT against the Saints in '09 that kept my Vikings out of the Super Bowl for the 33rd straight season. "And QBs who don't need cell phones with cameras and pic messaging capabilities." If Favre was just a normal citizen, he would probably be serving jail time. But since he holds all the major quarterback records (except championships, championship appearances...stuff like that), this story has pretty much been swept under the rug. 1593. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of the "Second-coming of Joe Montana," was anybody else as annoyed by the coverage that Brady got during his loss to Joe Cool's former team as I was? And to make matters worse, every time they mentioned him, NBC showed us a picture of his smug face to go with it. What's he got to be smug about? He hasn't won a Super Bowl in 8 years, has twice lost to "the lesser talented Manning brother", and has lost playoff games to Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez in between his Super Bowl losses. This is what happens when greatness gets to a player's head. Also, did anybody else find his NFL Films soundbites to be great irony? He keeps yelling at his teammates to be perfect, and then he goes and overthrows a wide-open Danny Woodhead on 4th & 2 late in the game (deja vu?), lost all of his team's momentum, and allowed the 49ers to kick a field goal and make it a two-score game. Way to practice what you preach, "Great One". 1594. David posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(459 degrees Fahrenheit)" That should be "(-459 degrees Fahrenheit)". 459 degrees Fahrenheit is a little bit too hot for absolute zero. But just a little bit. 1595. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tom Brady = Darth Vader Bill Belichick = Emperor Palpatine Gillette Stadium = Death Star New England Patriots = Galactic Empire 1596. Talon64 posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Normally I'd be against having a Cup driver run this many lower series races, but since he'll be doing a lot of it with his own team and can help his new drivers Coulter and Kligerman in their growth up the NASCAR ladder by working closely with them, I don't have that much of an issue with this. That being said, I don't think having this many distractions is good for Kyle if he wants to win or at least contend for the Sprint Cup title next year, even if he will be JGR's #1 focus." Kyle only ran 25 Nationwide/Truck races this past season, his fewest since he ran 25 races in 2005. And he ended up missing the Chase, which is pretty strong evidence against the notion that running the Nationwide/Truck races hurts his Cup effort. Or that it hurts any driver's Cup effort. Brad Keselowski had more Nationwide/Trucks starts this year than Kyle did (27), and won the championship. Carl ran just 1 Nationwide race, after running full time from 2005-11, and had the worst season of his career. It's certainly made me doubt how much of an effect running the extra races really has. 1597. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF the quarterback in that game was Earl Morrall 1598. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They gave Superbowl V the nickname of the Blunder Bowl because of how awful & error filled that game was. So I guess Superbowl XII would be Blunder Bowl II & Superbowl XVII is Blunder Bowl III. (All involving the Dallas Cowboys) 1599. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ding! Ding! Ding! David is our winner. Yeah, Favre's two final passes in the '07 and '09 NFC title games rank way up on the "What the hell was that?" lists. The '09 one was especially brutal. Given all the cheap shots he tok in that game, and the bounty scandal that was revealed behind it, had he won that one he would have reached immortality even had they lost the Super Bowl (which they might have, Favre and Manning are two of the shakiest big game QBs ever, that might have been the Blunder Bowl to end all Blunder Bowls) Favre goes down as a MINNESOTA legend despite playing 18 years for the hated Packers (although he did almost always have the decency to suck in the MetroDome as a Packer). They would have have a statue of him outside the Mall of America. As for the cell phone deal, I have always wondered: What was Jenn Stergers reaction when she got that pic? Did she laugh uncontrollably? Did she puke her guts out? Did she immediately become a lesbian? 1600. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the thing about Shula's not playing John Unitas until late in the third quarter in Super Bowl III was this. Shula was going to give Earl Morrall at least one series in the third quarter. So what happens, the Colts get the second half kickoff and Tom Matte fumbles on the very fist play, which sets up a field goal. And after a fruitless series and another Jets drive that resulted in another FG, it was late in the third quarter by the time Shula could put Unitas in. And the first time Unitas has the ball, they don't do anywhere and the Jets kick another FG to make it 16-0. Then when Unitas gets the ball and drives them downfield, he throws an interception in the end zone, and by the time he led them to their only score, it was far too late, even after recovering an onside kick. And by the way, I've revealed the drivers I've ranked 11-20 all-time, as mentioned in post #1584 and in a blog on the subject. This weekend, I intend to reveal my top ten. 1601. cjs3872 posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin, Super Bowl XVII did not involve the Dallas Cowboys. Super Bowl XXVII, played on the same field a decade later, did. Super Bowl XVII was the second Washington-Miami Super Bowl, known for John Riggins' performance and the ineptitude of David Woodley that led to Don Shula's drafting Dan Marino in the 1983 draft. The first of two consecutive Dallas-Buffalo Super Bowls occurred on that same field in Super Bowl XXVII a decade later, and is the last Super Bowl played in Los Angeles. 1602. David posted: 12.19.2012 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The '09 one was especially brutal. Given all the cheap shots he tok in that game, and the bounty scandal that was revealed behind it, had he won that one he would have reached immortality even had they lost the Super Bowl" The bounty scandal is one of the reasons I do not like the NFL. They were PAID to INJURE other players!! That is an outrage to me. That is about as bad as someone ordering their driver to wreck another driver because he quit his team and he is leading the points. 1603. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still think the Vikings should retire Favre's jersey and induct him into their Ring of Honor before the Packers do. That would be pretty funny. Maybe Eric (our resident Packer fan) can explain it, but I just get the feeling that Favre alienated Packer fans on his way out, and is more liked by Viking fans than Packer Fans as a result. 1604. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of the Bounty Scandal, what do you guys think about former commissioner Paul Tagliabue vacating all the suspensions handed down to the players? Some people are arguing that the players shouldn't be punished because they were just following orders handed down by their scumbag coaches, while others are saying that they should be punished because orders or no orders, the players were playing to hurt the other team. I lean towards the latter of the two because it's fairly comparable to the Nuremberg Trials. Those who were charged of heinous crimes back then weren't let off the hook just because they were just following orders because orders or no orders, what they did was wrong and they should be charged with what they did, and I feel that the players involved, if they had any involvement at all in this scandal (which all of those charged, except for Scott Fujita who was cleared of all charges, had involvement in), should be charged as such. Note: I am in no way trying to compare hurting key football opponents to executing millions of people and attempting to take over the world, but the situations with those who carried out their commanders' orders is fairly comparable. 1605. David posted: 12.19.2012 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Some people are arguing that the players shouldn't be punished because they were just following orders handed down by their scumbag coaches" That is asinine and ridiculous. I would NEVER carry out an order like that. 1606. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.19.2012 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DOH I meant to say Superbowl XXVII sorry a little brain fade there. 1607. David posted: 12.19.2012 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me put this to you: Who are the 10 best drivers in Cup history who won just one race? There are 54 drivers to choose from (60 if you include active drivers). 1608. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.19.2012 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can go to details on Brett Favre. While Brett was traded in 2008 after his short retirement ended, the Packers organization and Packerfans including myself got sick of him holding the Packers hostage for years. What I meant by holding the Packers hostage is every off season since around 2003, Brett Favre had considered retiring before the Packers forced him to make a decision in 2008. Every off season the local media brought up the storyline will Brett retire or not and Brett didn't make up his mind yet. The media even brought it up with the Packers were in the playoffs matter of fact. The stuff Brett was doing was affecting how the Packers draft. The reason the Packers drafted Rodgers was Brett's age and Brett playing the will Brett retire or not game. As far as Brett doing into the Green Bay Packer Hall of Fame, I wouldn't count on that anytime soon. Brett has very bad blood against the Packers and people that are currently in the Packers organization. Yes, the Packers do have their Hall of fame. In Brett's later days as a player, he even told Packer opponents outside of the Vikings what plays the Packers will used before the game started. Brett had problems with Ted Thompson not wanting to trade him to the Vikings. Brett also has problems with Mike Murphy, the Packers President and CEO. Brett also had problems with Mike Mccarthy. Ted Thompson forced Brett into making a decision in 2008 and Brett retired as a result. Ted wanted to know if Brett wanted to retire because he was preparing for the draft. It was deeper than that with Ted Thompson for Brett. Brett was trying to act like a GM while he was a Packer. Brett demanded Ted Thompson to sign Randy Moss because Brett didn't trust the Wide Receiver the Packers already have. Those are the same Wide Receivers Brett didn't trust that Rodgers won a super bowl with. Brett also wanted Aaron Rodgers to be traded, so the Packers could get better. What Brett wanted was make the Packers the favorites for the super bowl and win it right away instead of waiting for players to develop. Brett didn't like Mike Mccarthy because when Brett announced he is no longer retired, Mike wanted Brett as a Back-up Quarterback to Rodgers. Rodgers proved to Mike that he was ready for the starting job of the Packers by what he did in the 2007 Dallas cowboy game after Brett went out in that game with an injury. The 2nd thing is Arron was in his final year of his rookie contract in 2008 and the fact Rodgers could have left the Packers after the 2008 season. The fact is if Brett wasn't trade, Brett-Rodgers would have been even more uglier than Young-Montana was since Brett himself wanted Rodgers to be traded. The relationship between the Packer fans and Brett went sour to a few things. Fans got of Brett's retirement act and combine that with a couple other things. Brett started his retirement act in 2003 or 2004. Brett became bigger than the team because of his ego and the Packer fans don't like players demanding the Packers to trade them to a division rival. While Brett wasn't traded to the Vikings, when he signed with them in 2009 the Packer fans already know about Brett's feeling wanting to stick to the Packers organization. Things came also out after Brett was traded from the Packers to the Jets that the local media kept people outside of the Packers organization from knowing. What was found out that Brett had his own locker away from rest of the time and that meant Brett hasn't been one of the guys since around 1999 and had been acting like a diva in the locker room for years. 1609. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.19.2012 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul and DaleSrFanForever, Are you a bit shocked how Brett acted in his final years was a Packer since Brett was trying to act like a GM by demanding the Packers GM to sign players and trade players such as Aaron Rodgers? 1610. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.19.2012 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For David, my opinion, in no particular order: Joe Eubanks Wendell Scott Lennie Pond Bill Rexford (just because he won the title though) Dick Brooks Bill Amick Buddy Shuman Lloyd Moore Ron Bouchard Dick Passwater (should have won a lot more races) 1611. Paul posted: 12.19.2012 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packerfan4ver, I can't say I'm surprised about Brett's behavior in his final years with the Packers because he always seemed to be more interested in himself than in the team, and I think he let his success get to his head. I think he was a little less "diva-like" with the Vikings for whatever reason (maybe he liked his receivers or teammates better), but eventually he and Brad Childress started to butt-heads into the 2010 season. Part of the reason had to due with the signing of Randy Moss, who as you mentioned Favre wanted to sign while with the Packers. Childress didn't want to sign Moss because he wanted to do things his way, while Favre and team owner Zygi Wilf wanted Moss there. This leads into a different story, but Moss was waived after 4 weeks because of critical comments he made about Childress, which was an incredibly unpopular move among Vikings players and fans. Zygi Wilf was actually considering firing Childress to prevent such a move, but didn't because Childress did coach the Vikings to the NFC Championship Game the season before, which was a costly move because it allowed Childress to waive Moss and blow away the 3rd round pick they used to trade for him. Three weeks later, "Chilly" was gone and eventually Favre got hurt and the season went down the drain. So basically I'm not surprised at Favre's actions during his Packer years because by then he had become a media darling and started to believe in his own hype. But when he came to the Vikings, aside from influencing the Randy Moss trade, sending pictures of his "pecker" (pardon the pun), and giving us two years worth of "Will he retire or won't he", I don't think he was as much of a diva with the Vikings as he was with the Packers. He seemed to get along with everyone and was always joking around on the sidelines and such. Maybe the change in scenery is what he needed, but at the same time he brought A LOT of baggage with him. 1612. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.19.2012 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At the time I was surprised because I never followed the Packers all that closely and was just relying on info from the press (who as it turns out are totally in love with Favre and brushed every negative detail under the rug) and blindly assumed he was just a down home small town boy who never lost touch of his roots who loved playing for the smallest pro sports market team (yet most storied) out there. Also remember, '03-'08, when all this Favre stuff was going on, was the Panthers glory years. I was too wrapped up in them to see what was really going on with Favre. But now we can all see Favre for who he really is. And he really had to eat crow after Aaron Rodgers and the Packers team and administrators he wasn't so sure about won the whole damn thing then went 15-1 the next year. Of course, when asked, he gave the typical Brett Favre douchebag response along the lines of "I'm surprised Aaron didn't win the Super Bowl sooner". Moron. If Aaron has another 6 or 7 years playing at the same level he has over the previous 4 (countingg this year) then Brett will slide down to the third best Packer QB ever. 1613. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "blindly assumed he was just a down home small town boy who never lost touch of his roots who loved playing for the smallest pro sports market team (yet most storied) out there." I can't speak for all Midwesterners, but I think Favre changed a lot of opinions of how we view southerners, considering how Favre played 18 seasons in the Midwest for either the Packers or Vikings. I've always considered southerners to be down-to-earth, humble, charitable people who are more interested in helping others than themselves, and Favre's selfish attitude in his later years pretty much changed my perspective on southerners, for better or worse. Now I'm not some idiot who thinks all southern people are the same, but I think Favre is a great example of how stereotypes can be broken among any group of people. "Also remember, '03-'08, when all this Favre stuff was going on, was the Panthers glory years." This is somewhat off-topic, but the Panthers have always been one of my favorite southern teams, along with the Titans, Texans, and (formerly) Cowboys. I'll always remember how in their horrible '01 season when they went 1-15, they won their opening game against (wait for it...) the Vikings who had just been blown out in the NFC Championship Game prior to this one. And then for them to rebound two years later with an unknown head coach, a quarterback with more NFL Europe experience than NFL experience (and a southerner who never lost touch with his roots), and a cast-off running back from the Redskins, and come within one field goal of knocking off the Patriots in the Super Bowl, it was a pretty great underdog story and one that I followed and pulled for throughout the season (even though they beat the Cowboys, when I was still a fan, in the playoffs). I also remember quite fondly when the Panthers faced the Giants late in the '08 season in what was a battle between the two best NFC teams. The media coverage of the pre-Cam Newton Panthers was so lousy, I had no idea how great the Panthers were that season. And with Jake Delhomme one year removed from elbow surgery, once again the Panthers were an underdog story and were often pushed aside in the media for the Cowboys and Broncos' late season collapses, among other things. "then Brett will slide down to the third best Packer QB ever." As sad as this may sound, one can make an argument that he's already the 3rd greatest Viking QB of all-time, behind Fran Tarkenton (the unanimous #1) and any combination of Favre, Daunte Culpepper, Randall Cunningham, Joe Kapp, and Tommy Kramer in the 2nd-6th group. That's the problem with the Vikings: They often have average QBs for long periods of time, or great QBs for short periods of time. Heck, we even had Jeff George for one season and he had one of his best seasons for us in '99. If not for us drafting Culpepper that year and Jeff George being Jeff George, he could have led us to the Super Bowl in 2000 with the likes of Robert Smith, Cris Carter, Randy Moss, and a great offensive line around him. 1614. Red posted: 12.20.2012 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regarding Tom Brady's place in history, here's a fun thought experiment: Imagine if his career had happened in reverse. In 2011, he breaks the 5000 yard passing mark, but loses to the Giants in the regular season and in the Super Bowl. Eli must be in Tom's head. In 2010, he once again posts a terrific stat line, wins MVP, and leads the Pats to a 14-2 record. However, he loses at home in the playoffs to the Jets, getting outplayed by MARK SANCHEZ in the process. There are whispers that Tom Brady just can't get it done in big games. In 2009, another great statistical season for Tom, but yet another early playoff exit. This time, he throws 3 INT's in a horrible home loss to the Ravens. At this point, after going one-and-done in the playoffs two years in a row, both times losing at home to inferior opponents, Tom Brady is a CHOKER. In 2007, after missing the previous year with a knee injury, Brady leads the Patriots to the first 16-0 season in history, throws a record 50 TD passes, and wins his second MVP award. However, he once again loses in the Super Bowl to Eli and the Giants, scoring only 14 points with the best offense in history, and blowing the Pats quest for a perfect season. At this point, everyone agrees that Tom Brady is the worst playoff choke artist of all-time, and the amazing stats he puts up in the regular season don't matter because he can't get it done in the biggest games. In 2006, Brady wins another division title, but blows a 21-3 lead in the AFC Championship game to Peyton Manning and the Colts. Of course he choked, he's Tom Brady, he always chokes. In 2005, yet another division title, and yet another early playoff exit. This time, Brady throws a back breaking pick-six as the Patriots lose to the Broncos. Tom Brady, choker extraordinaire. In 2004, the Patriots finally win a Super Bowl, and Tom Brady plays well in the big game, but his narrative is already written, and fans/media find ways to discount his accomplishment. He beat a rookie QB in the AFCCG, and he beat fellow choker Donovan McNabb in the Super Bowl. Anyone could have won against McNabb. In 2003, Brady wins another Super Bowl, but it took a last second field to beat JAKE DELHOMME. He may have won back-to-back titles, but look at his competition. Fraud. In 2002, he misses the playoffs altogether. Tom Brady is washed up. In 2001, he wins his third SB in four year, but he needed the Tuck Rule and a bunch of clutch kicks from Adam Vinatieri to do it. Tom was okay, but his team carried him this time. Look at how wildly different Tom Brady's perception would be if his career had unfolded in reverse. Once a narrative is set, fans and media cling to it for dear life, and only pay attention to the things that confirm what they already think. Since Brady won his SB titles early in his career, he was anointed the everlasting powers of "clutch" and "winner", despite the fact that the rest of his career has been anything but. In fact, from 2007-2011, Tom Brady has been EXACTLY what people deride Manning and Marino for: a stat compiler who fails in the playoffs. Funny how that works, huh? For an objective view of QB playoff performance, here is an excellent article: http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-qb-of-all-time-iv-part-iii-playoff-results/ 1615. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.20.2012 - 8:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, I'm not like the media. I've always hated Brady's guts. He's an arrogant rathead and a quitter. I'm really surprised he was able to score 28 points after the 49ers stopped playing the man and zone blitzes Sunday. 1616. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 8:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red, the problem with you argument is that the Patriots have not had a complete team in years and the fault for that, especially their terrible defenses in recent years, goes not to Tom Brady, but rather Bill Belichick. If not for Brady, I believe the Patriots would be no better than a 8-8 or 9-7 team, because their running game is pedestrian, and their defense is terrible, which is evident when they play the better offensive teams. The fact that Brady got them to the Super Bowl and within an Eli Manning drive away from winning it last year shows just how great a QB he really is, and I rate him the fourth-best of all-time, behind only Montana, Unitas, and Elway. 1617. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.20.2012 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact remains that Matt Cassel led that team to the best record to not make the playoffs at 11-5 when Brady was hurt. That Cassel is such a terrible QB now with my beloved Chiefs (I like them too) shows that a chimpanzee or a ladybug could QB that team to a decent record. 1618. David posted: 12.20.2012 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yawn. I guess this is what I get for ignoring football. 1619. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.20.2012 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I guess this is what I get for ignoring football." You and me both, lol. 1620. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.20.2012 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is an excellent way of looking at it Red. I know after he won his 3rd title in 2004, I thought "Damn, this is truly the second coming of Joe Cool, Brady's hero". At the time, his ugly Super Bowl 39 win only enhanced this to me. Remember, with the exception of that epic last drive, Montana's 3rd Super Bowl win was an ugly win against the Boomer Esiason Bengals. You have to be able to win those games where things don't go so well. Even after his loss in the '06 AFC title game, I figured "his receivers are mediocre at best (which was true) and Peyton is due to win it all at some point". But his two playoff losses to the Giants and his losses to the Ravens and Jets showed that if you pressure him, and knock him around, you can rattle him. The funny thing is that he was a really good big game QB from '01-'06 when he wasn't a stat machine. The fact is those '05 Broncos and '06 Colts were much better than the Pats those years. Honestly, his '06 Divisional win against the Chargers in San Diego is probably his best overall playoff performance in terms of beating a team he had no business in beating. But he began putting up huge statistical numbers in 2007 and hasn't won the Big Game since. It just seems the stat machines always have trouble in the postseason (Manning, Marino, Favre, post-'07 Brady). The best big game QBs from 2004 to present are Big Ben and Eli. What have those two ever done in the regular season (apart from Ben's 14-0 rookie season)? Grind out ugly playoff berths then run the table. The ability to win ugly is very important (as Brady often did from '01-'06). In other words if the Giants can grind their way into the playoffs this year, if the Steelers can get their shit together, and if the Niners can keep rallying around Kaepernick (who I think I'm developing a man crush on), I think those are you favorites. "I can't speak for all Midwesterners, but I think Favre changed a lot of opinions of how we view southerners" Us Southerners have disowned Favre after all his bullshit. You know the worst part of all his antics in my opinion? It took all the attention off his wife who had just beat breast cancer and was doing a ton of good things to raise awareness and money to help others affected. She had just released a book and was in full swing when his cell phone dong pic scandal broke. First off, you have a loyal wife not far removed from being a cancer patient, and you are sending pictures of your junk to young secretaries? Asshole! And I remember her on one of the morning shows that was supposed to be about promoting her book, but it was right as this was coming out, and it was awkward as shit thanks to Brett. She even had to answer a question about it. We haven't seen much of her since. "The media coverage of the pre-Cam Newton Panthers was so lousy" Ugh. Don't get me started on Cam Newton. He is about himself first, second, and third. Man I want Steve Smith to just beat the shit out of him. In public. With lots of cameras around. 1621. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.20.2012 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, it looks like our long National nightmare is over, the Jets plan to part ways with Tim Tebow after this year. So let's get this straight: The Jets pick up Tim, coming off leading the Broncos into the playoffs after a moribund start, winning a playoff game against the favored Steelers, and give him a multi million dollar contract. Then your coach, the vaunted (thanks to his own self promotion) Rex Ryan DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH HIM! He just keeps playing Sanchez who is clearly losing confidence with every passing minute, and rides him even while he is fumbling while running into his own lineman's ass, then benches him first for the second half of a game against the hapless Cardinals, then for the final two games.... BUT YOU PUT THE THIRD STRING GUY IN INSTEAD OF TEBOW! Nothing against McElroy, he might have an NFL future, but you have Tebow who has a proven record of winning no matter how ugly things are. So we have established being able to win ugly is extremely important in the NFL. Did you see Tebow's wins last year? They were uglier than John Darby. Why has he been kept on the sideline? Why did they sign him in the first place? And can we get the 1989 Joe Montana in a time machine to play a game against Rex's Jets to expose just how bad he is as a coach the way he did to his father Buddy? The Jets are a monument to fail. Take away their 1969 season and what does that organization have? Nothing! Hell, Rex Ryan isn't even the worst coach in their history. Mr. Kotite takes that crown. So where does Tim go now? Paul, I want your thoughts on this: What about the Vikings? I think it is a good idea. First off, I hate Florida State, and seeing FSU product Christian Ponder benched for possibly the most famed Florida Gator would make me smile (definitely not a Gator fan, but I really hate FSU, so I pull for them once per year). But also, what about him and All Day joining forces? Imagine the wild formations and plays they could run with those two in the backfield. Which one will run on this play? Teams would have to put 8 defenders in the box. Given Tebow's relative limitations in passing (which are overblown), this could give him some easy downfield passes. Just a thought. 1622. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually NicoRosbergFan, there has been more than one team to go 11-5 and not made the playoffs since the schedule was expanded to 16 games in 1978. The 1985 Denver Broncos also went 11-5 and watched the playoffs at home, failing to qualify, and the same thing would have happened to the Chiefs had they finished 11-5 in 2005 (they were 10-6). And prior to that, when only four teams per conference made the playoffs, there were teams with even better records that failed to make the playoffs. The Houston Oilers and Miami Dolphins were both 10-4, which is a higher winning percentage than 11-5 is, and failed to make the playoffs, and the Dolphins again were 10-4 in 1977, and failed to qualify for the playoffs, which may have brought on the extra Wild Cards for 1978. And in 1967, another Don Shula team, the 1967 Baltimore Colts, lost only one game, yet because they failed to win their division in the era before the Wild Card, they failed to make the post-season. The Colts were 11-1-2 that year, while the Los Angeles Rams were 12-1-1, and beat out the Colts by half a game. 1623. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Rich Kotite was bad as the Jets' head coach, but was he really any worse than Lou Holtz was in 1975? In fact, the Jets had two head coaches that year, and both were fired. Really, the Jets have only had three really good head coaches in their history. They were Weeb Ewbank, Walt Michaels (who led them to the 1982 AFC Championship game), and Bill Parcells. And everyone knows that Rex Ryan was never going to allow Tim Tebow to start at QB, and for one simple reason. His ego's too big. If Tebow had started around the fifth or sixth game, the Jets would still be in playoff contention, because he would have found a way to win games that Mark Sanchez couldn't. But had that happened, Tebow would have taken the headlines, and that's something that Rex Ryan just could not stand to let happen, so he played Sanchez. But even so, Greg McElroy might be their best QB, anyway, and if what I hear is true, he has a lot of Joe Namath in him, in terms of confidence, poise, and leadership. His arm strength may be his only question, but that didn't stop other greats, not that I think McElroy's going to be one, because I don't at this point, but I've fely he may have been their best option most of the season. And correct me if I'm wrong, but of the three Jets' QBs, Mark Sanchez is the only one not to win at least one national championship, and the only one not considered an underachiever in college. McElroy won one at Alabama, and Tebow won two, plus a Heisman Trophy at Florida. But Sanchez always came up short in his team's biggest games, while the other two usually didn't, and against better competition. 1624. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.20.2012 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I don't think Tebow and AD would work well together because Tebow would be taking over half the rushes. 1625. 44andJoe posted: 12.20.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, on the subject of racing... reportedly, Truck ex-rookie Ross Chastain will be driving for "a high-profile team" in 2013. 1626. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.20.2012 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can't believe I forgot about the Lou Holtz one year disaster. That is just how much fail the Jets have had in their history. Something like that gets lost in the shuffle. Also, you are dead on correct about Rex's ego not alllowing him to use Tebow in any meaningful way. Is there anybody as in love with themselves as Rex? 1627. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good for Chastain, he deserves a high-profile ride after his impressive runs for SS-Green Light Racing last season. I see six possible rides for him in 2013: The 4th Turner truck, the 3rd ThorSport truck, and the 3rd Eddie Sharp truck are the most likely at this point. It's also possible he could step into the 2nd BKR truck, replace Todd Bodine at Red Horse, or (highly unlikely) join RCR in a 4th truck. My gut tells me he's going to replace Cale Gale at ESR, but I could be wrong. cjs, Lou Holtz coached the Jets in 1976, not 1975. He also posted a 3-10 record with the Jets that season, resigning with one game to go, which means that he has one less win than Rich Kotite had in two seasons as the Jets head coach. I couldn't tell you which coach was worse because sometimes the records don't tell the whole story, but I'm leaning towards Kotite being the worst head coach in Jets history because of what Bill Parcells did with that Jets team in the three seasons following Kotite's firing in '96. Also, both coaches joined the franchise during bad times, as the Jets had gone six straight seasons without a winning record prior to both coaches being hired. DSFF, adding Tebow to the Vikings would be a fantastic move because of the energy he would bring to the team, plays that would be made in the passing game (even though he has the tendency to throw an ugly pass), and the improvement in the running game. He might take away some carries for A.D. (which I won't mind so much if he breaks Dickerson's record this season), but at the same time he would provide the leadership and energy that is lacking with Christian Ponder as the quarterback. And that to me is more important than worrying about Tebow taking away some of A.D.'s carries. Of course, Ponder does have more confidence than Mark Sanchez has, and is also utilized better as far as being a game manager (which is what Sanchez should be), which makes Ponder more valuable to us than "Butt Fumble" is to the Jets. That being said, I would take Tebow over Ponder any day, even if that means taking away some of A.D.'s carries and having the passing game become miserable for the first 3/4 of the game, because I'd rather the Vikings win ugly than lose beautifully. "First off, I hate Florida State, and seeing FSU product Christian Ponder benched for possibly the most famed Florida Gator would make me smile" HA! I actually don't have a problem with Florida State, and would always pull for them (as long as they weren't playing Notre Dame or Oklahoma) when Bobby Bowden was the head coach. And while Ponder isn't a great QB, we have fun with him up here, especially since he married ESPN reporter Samantha Steele a couple days ago (who by the way is smokin' hot!). This leads to a lot of fun jokes about his gameday "performance", if you know what I mean haha. 1628. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've always considered the Giants and Yankees to be the New York City winners, and the Jets and Mets to be the New York City losers. It's kind of funny that often time Giants fans are also Yankees fans, and Jets fans are also Mets fans. You'd think that in a city with 4 teams in 2 different sports (and I realize that the Giants and Jets actually play in New Jersey), that they'd want to root for at least one winning team, but to each their own. I myself am a Giants fan, and even though I don't watch much baseball, have always leaned towards the Yankees when rooting for certain teams. Of course, it could be because I HATE the Red Sox, but that's a different story. 1629. David posted: 12.20.2012 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, it looks like our long National nightmare is over" No, that lasts for four more years until the next election. "You and me both, lol." Did you read post #1607? I would be glad to discuss that with you. 1630. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's not just Rex Ryan that has an ego as big as his waist, his twin brother Rob has one too. Remember a couple weeks ago when he walked out onto the field and was trash-talking Bengals offensive tackle Andre Smith, resulting in a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty? That's completely unacceptable to begin with, and even more so for a coach, who's supposed to control the emotions of his players, and then goes out and makes an ass of himself by costing his team 15 yards. It must just run in the family because their dad Buddy Ryan has a huge ego as well. 1631. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.20.2012 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Islanders should count as New York's hockey winner 1632. David posted: 12.20.2012 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And everyone knows that Rex Ryan was never going to allow Tim Tebow to start at QB, and for one simple reason. His ego's too big. If Tebow had started around the fifth or sixth game, the Jets would still be in playoff contention, because he would have found a way to win games that Mark Sanchez couldn't. But had that happened, Tebow would have taken the headlines, and that's something that Rex Ryan just could not stand to let happen, so he played Sanchez." Hmm. Sounds like Bobby Allison and Waddell Wilson's relationship when they worked together in 1981 for Harry Ranier. At Riverside in January, he had a bad vibration during the pace laps. He diagnosed the problem as the drive shaft not being in its socket, and reported it as such to the crew. Wilson told him to "shut up and keep driving". Allison came in anyway, and one of the crew members went under the car and fixed the problem. Starting from the back, Allison won the race. Wilson refused to come to Victory Lane ceremonies. But that is only part of it. 1633. Red posted: 12.20.2012 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I'm sorry we are boring you with football talk. I know this is a racing site, but there isn't any racing to talk about right now. That's how I feel when subjects like pro wrestling and movies come up. cjs, I agree that Tom Brady's defenses haven't been as good in recent years, but that was kinda the point of my post. Quarterbacks get too much credit AND too much blame, and it's silly to attribute win/loss records in a team sport to any idividual player. Dan Marino spent almost his entire career on teams with lousy defenses and no running game, and yet many fans still blame him for the Dolphins playoff failures. In reality, Miami wouldn't have even made the playoffs in most years without Marino. I have to respectfully disagree with you guys about Tim Tebow. As a Broncos fan, I watched every snap of his 2011 season. He was AWFUL. He was almost comically inaccurate throwing the ball, with many of his passes landing 10+ yards away from anyone on the field, or sometimes all the way into the stands. He had terrible pocket awareness leading to a ridiculous number of sacks, and he also fumbled at an alarming rate. He could make plays with his feet, but that's about it. The Broncos did not make the playoffs because of Tebow, they made it because of their defense and kicker. For anyone outside of Denver, all you saw were the highlights, which were at times spectacular and miraculous, but you didn't see the other 97% of his plays, many of which were truly cringe worthy. Truth is, Kyle Orton was better than Tebow in 2011, despite the fact that angry fans wanted to run him out of town, and eventually did. Orton: 58.7% completions, 5.7 yards/pass play Tebow: 46.5% completions, 4.9 yards/pass play If you think stats don't matter, and claim that Tebow's "intangibles" raised the level of play of the guys around him, let's look at team performance: Team Points Per Game w/ Orton: 21.0 Team Points Per Game w/ Tebow: 18.7 That's right, the Broncos offense scored more points with a noodle-armed loser like Orton than they did with The Great Leader of Men Tim Tebow. I understand why people like Tebow, and I understand why people want to see him succeed. But the cold reality is that he's just not a good quarterback. Rex Ryan could see that, which is the reason Tim hasn't started this year. Every other GM in the league could see it, which is why no one but the Jets and Jags had any interest in him. Tebowmania is dead, let's move on. 1634. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Red, something was missing, because in the last 22 games Orton started in Denver, they went 6-16, including a disastrous 1-4 start (and sinking faster than the Titanic) in 2011, then when Tebow was inserted, they won seven of their next eight games. If they had not made that change, Robert Griffin III would probably be starting in Denver now, instead of Washington, because they would probably have gone 3-13 (or possibly even 2-14) and possibly gotten the second or third pick in the draft (and maybe even the first). And if not for Tebow, I guarantee that Peyton Manning would not be there, because they would never have been an attractive team to a QB of Manning's caliber. It was really bad in Denver before Tebow was inserted last year, because until Tebow was inserted, they were one of the three or four worst teams in the NFL (and might have been the worst if not for Peyton's season-ending neck surgeries), but after he was inserted into the starting lineup, they became a force to be reckoned with again, even with a bad defense that gave up 40+ points five times last year and gave up 32 to a horrific Vikings team. I think we all forget just how bad the Broncos really were last year until they installed Tim Tebow at quarterback. 1635. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And cjs, while John Fox and John Elway didn't want to insert Tebow into the lineup because they preferred the "conventional" quarterback Kyle Orton, they finally sucked up their pride and began playing him after 5 games when it became evident that they weren't going anywhere with Orton as the starter. Of course, it was obvious that they, especially Elway, did not want Tebow to be their starting quarterback, which is why they went after Manning this past offseason, but at least they realized that a change had to be made at quarterback, something that Rex Ryan waited FAR too long to do this season. If the Broncos hadn't put Tebow into the lineup, they would be like the 2012 Jets and would watch the playoffs from home instead of participating. "and gave up 32 [points] to a horrific Vikings team." Ugh, don't remind me. That was a horrible season on so many levels. I've done a pretty good job at blocking that season out, to the point where I almost forgot that season existed. 1636. David posted: 12.20.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, I'm sorry we are boring you with football talk. I know this is a racing site, but there isn't any racing to talk about right now." Don't be sorry at all. You have your interests and I have mine. The main interest outside racing on this board is football, and mine isn't. Besides, I found your "career in reverse" analysis in post #1614 extremely, and I mean extremely, interesting. "That's how I feel when subjects like pro wrestling and movies come up." I'm with you on wrestling, but do you not watch movies? 1637. David posted: 12.20.2012 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Besides, I found your 'career in reverse' analysis in post #1614 extremely, and I mean extremely, interesting." You could even apply this philosophy to NASCAR drivers. 1638. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And might have contended for the first or second pick in the draft, Paul. Like I said, I don't think Peyton Manning would have even considered Denver without Tim Tebow's efforts, because he made them a viable team in the NFL once again, despite his methods. In fact, I've always considered Tebow somewhat of a left-handed version of Joe Kapp, the QB that led the Vikings to their first Super Bowl appearance following the 1969 season. He was extremely unorthodox, but won 12 games in a row in 1969, including being the last QB to this day to throw seven TDs in one game, doing so against the Colts. But I believe he only played one more season after that, in 1970 with the then-Boston Patriots, going 2-12. 1639. Paul posted: 12.20.2012 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joe Kapp hurt his shoulder pretty badly in the Super Bowl loss to the Chiefs in an era where surgeries weren't very effective at rehabilitating injuries (see Greg Cook of the '69 Bengals). So his career pretty much ended in Super Bowl IV, as he was just a shell of himself with a bad Patriots team in 1970. 1640. cjs3872 posted: 12.20.2012 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That may be true Paul, but Kapp wasn't going to last long anyway with his reckless style of play. There are positions where being aggressive and reckless may benefit you, but QB is the last position where that will lead to long-term success. There's a reason why there's never been a true running QB that has had a long and successful NFL career. Fran Tarkenton may have been the closest, but most of his running was either from desperation or design, not reckless risktaking. 1641. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.20.2012 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, While Fran Tarkenton was a running quarterback, I argue that Steve young and Randell Cunningham were even better at scrambling than Fran was. Even after Randell's 1991 injury, Randell was still mobile before he went to the Vikings. Steve Young was a running Quarterback. 1642. cjs3872 posted: 12.21.2012 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Packerfan4ver, what I was saying was that guys like Tarkenton, Young, and Randall Cunningham were not reckless the entire careers, because they knew they couldn't be reckless for very long, or they wouldn't last, and they knew it. Ironically, the most serious injuries that Young and Cunningham suffered were as a result of pocket hits, with Young's ending his career. And I also mentioned that most of their running in the second half of their career was mostly controlled, as a result of either desperation or design. Young was certainly more reckless than Tarkenton and possibly Cunningham, except for just before his injury, but being able to run is one thing, but being reckless while doing so will result in a short career. That's what I was saying. 1643. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.21.2012 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well folks, at most we have just 23 hours left. How will you spend the world's final day? Finally got to see NFL Network's Top 10 lists for underrated players (they had Bart Starr #1, thank you, 9-1 in the playoffs, 5 championships) and biggest upsets. The upset list was enlightening. I had seen that in '87 the Vikings went into Candlestick Park in the playoffs and beat the Niners pretty decisively. I always wondered what happened. Did they have a key in game injury (like the '90 NFC title game), were they just beaten by a better team (like the '83 NFC title game) or a combo of both (like the '86 Divisional loss to the Giants). I mean, the 80's Vikings were no joke, but this was the Niners of Walsh and Montana. As it turns out, Montana simply threw up a rare playoff stinkbomb and the Vikings played out of their minds. He was even benched in the end. Ouch. Funny, despite their 4 titles with Montana and 5 total from '81-'94, they also had some missed opportunites, in '87 (Joe Cool was Joe Schmo), '90 (possibly the best Niners team ever, they were up 13-6 when Montana got his throwing arm destroyed), and '92 (they should have put Montana in in the 4th quarter). 1644. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 12.21.2012 - 4:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Did you read post #1607? I would be glad to discuss that with you." Okay. Obviously you'd have to dig all the way back to the beginning of the sport to find the best drivers ever to win just one race. While I don't have too much knowledge of names back then who only won once, I'd put Wendell Scott and Lennie Pond (he could be good at times) on my list for sure. 1645. Paul posted: 12.21.2012 - 4:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just for fun DSFF, I have come up with three reasons that prove the Mayans were right, and they all directly relate to posts you, an Earnhardt fan, have made this year: 3. You waited until now to bump Geoff Bodine off the top of your "Yankee Bastards I Hate the Most" list, in favor of his 2012 nepotistic counterpart (which is quite fair considering not many Yankee drivers were as annoying as Bodine, but I think it's worth mentioning nonetheless) 2. You pulled for a Bodine to beat an RCR driver in the Truck race at Dover this year (which in and of itself is enough to prove the Mayans right, but for the sake of this list I'll add two more events). But at number one... 1. You pulled for the driver of the #2 Miller car to beat the 5-time champion for the championship (role-reversal of '93). Is it any coincidence that in both years, the champion finished as the first car one lap down? Probably, but I'd like to think not. As you can see, these 3 reasons (note that 3 was Dale Earnhardt's number) proves that something is amiss in 2012, and thus this must be a sign that the world is coming to an end. And just to cap it off, I'm going to connect the dots on the current date to see how they match up to this season's champion: Brad's first number was 12. That number plus his total number of wins (9) equals 21. His total number of poles is 2. His final points position, provided that we have all numbers formed as two-digit integers, is 01. His current car number is 2. Put them all together, and you have 12.21.2012. *GASP!* And now if we take a look at Brad's birth date, it reads 2-12-1984. 2 being his current car number and 12 being his former car number, which as I previously mentioned were numbers within the 12-21-2012 date. Him being born in 1984 makes him 28 years old; 28 being the car number of the late Davey Allison, who passed away in '93, the year that had the opposite championship outcome as 2012. Allison's best points finish was 3rd (Earnhardt's number), which he did so 2 times (the number of both the '93 runner-up and Brad). Rusty Wallace, who was the '93 runner-up, also won the championship in '89, with some help from Ricky Rudd at North Wilkesboro, who also drove the #28 car. The winner of that race was the aforementioned Geoff Bodine, enemy of all Earnhardt fans. And do you know what car number Geoff drove in that race? 5, which was Brad's age at the time. *DOUBLE GASP!* I don't know what this means, but if today really is the end of the world, all the writing was on the wall, with Brad's championship sealing the deal, and the fate of the world along with it. On that note, I leave you with the famous R.E.M. song "It's the End of the World as We Know It". By the way, that song came out in 1987, which would make Brad 3 years old at the time (Dale Earnhardt's number). Do you know what else happened in 1987? Davey Allison won his first Cup race. Do you know where? Talladega, the sight of Brad's first Cup win. *TRIPLE GASP!* I've seen enough! It's been nice knowing you all! :) 1646. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.21.2012 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since the world's ending tomorrow, anyone making plans for what they will do to survive the racing withdrawals? 1647. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.21.2012 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey if you want a definition of a true scumbag try Lance Armstrong. 1648. cjs3872 posted: 12.21.2012 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Benjamin Lowe asked me last night on YouTube via personal message what I think the racing next year might look like, and I told him what I'm about to say, and that s that it will be the same, if not a little worse, because judging by the speeds at the Charlotte test, the speeds may be up even more with the new car. Improved aerodynamics is one thing, but there's something else I forgot about until I just saw Darrell Waltrip's column on whether he thought the cars were going too fast, and that is that the cars are going to be lighter in weight. That will also make the cars go faster, partcularly through the corners. In short, based on the fact that they unofficially broke the existing track record at Charlotte during the test, I could see the very real possiblilty of a 200 MPH lap at Charlotte and other tracks of that size within two years unless changes are made to slow the cars down, and that will make the racing worse, not better. And the slicker, more aerodynamic cars will also decrease the effect of the draft, even at Daytona and Talladega, to where racing there will be like it was a decade ago, with passing, especially passing up front scarce. Everyone remembers when Bill Elliott set the existing records at Daytona and Talladega in 1987. What a lot of people don't mention is that NASCAR aided the escalation in speeds that year, because the weight of the cars were dropped 200 lbs., from 3700 to 3500 for 1987, and that escalated cornering speeds. Elliott aso turned the first 170 MPH lap at Charlotte that year, as speeds on the high-speed track went up across the board due to the lighter cars. For instance, Elliott borke his Daytona qualifying record by more than 5 MPH in 1987, and that went on a good part of that season. And as Tom Sneva always pointed out in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, higher speeds leads to a decrease in the level of competition, because it's harder for the cars to race closer at those speeds. If no changes are made to the cars, we may see an escalation of speeds on the high-speed tracks we haven't seen in NASCAR since the 1994 tire war, because of aerodynamics and lighter cars, and with that will come a decrease in the ability for the cars to race closer together, and we may see more 200 MPH laps on the 1.5 and 2 mile ovals in the next 2-4 years, unless NASCAR finds a way to slow the cars down. 1649. Paul posted: 12.21.2012 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It looks like the Truck Series will feature the best racing once again this year, and I'm sure the lower speeds have contributed to the great racing in that series. Unfortunately, NASCAR is also considering changing the bodies of the trucks, which could alter the racing in that series as well. 1650. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.21.2012 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow Paul. Just wow. I would tell Bill "Now You Don't Have To Look It Up Cause We Already Did" Weber to eat his heart out, but he has no heart. It really is the end. It has been a pleasure knowing all of you, even you Bronco. 1651. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.21.2012 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I second that DSFF. It's been a pleasure discussing everything with everyone except for WillyOnWheels and SneezIt. See y'all tomorrow at our office called RR. 1652. David posted: 12.21.2012 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Rusty Wallace, who was the '93 runner-up, also won the championship in '89, with some help from Ricky Rudd at North Wilkesboro, who also drove the #28 car." At the time, Ricky Rudd drove the #26 Quaker State car for Kenny Bernstein. When Brad was 26 years old, he was driving the #12 car. By the time that happened, Rudd had been retired for three years. And who drove the #3 car after Rudd? Earnhardt, who took over in 1984, Brad's birth year. Before that, Earnhardt drove for Bud Moore, who was born on 5/25/25. 5+2+5=12, and #25 was Brad's first car number driving in Cup. *QUADRUPLE GASP!* "The winner of that race was the aforementioned Geoff Bodine, enemy of all Earnhardt fans. And do you know what car number Geoff drove in that race? 5, which was Brad's age at the time." In 1993 (note the year), the year of Bud Moore's last win, Jimmy Spencer (who has twelve letters in his name) finished twelfth in points driving the #12 car for Bobby Allison. Bud Moore's last win came with Geoff Bodine, who drove 52 races for Bud Moore. 5+2=7. Morgan Shepherd finished TWELFTH in points driving for Bud Moore in 1991, when Brad was aged seven. *QUINTUPLE GASP!* Going back to the Bobby Allison part, the only time he drove for himself since Brad was born was in 1985 (the final 13 races after he left DiGard). The first race, at Pocono, he finished twelfth. His final ranking that year was twelfth. And once again, the only time he finished 12th in points as an owner only was in 1993, the year his son was killed. 1+9+9+3=22, the very number he used in 1985!! Taking the last two digits only, 9+3=12, the car number he used as an owner!!! *SEXTUPLE GASP!!...and faint* It has been nice knowing you guys. I immensely enjoyed the discussions here. 1653. cjs3872 posted: 12.21.2012 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The lower speeds and the much less aerodynamic bodies, Paul. They could race at 205 MPH, but if the cars didn't have good aerodynamics, drafting would be a factor, which would increase the level of competition. The 1986 Winston 500 at Talladega proved that. In that race, they were racing at about 202-204 MPH all day, but since the cars were not nearly as aerodynamic as they are today, drafting was still important, and there were still 8-10 cars running in a pack most of the day, because no single car could, by it's own, break away from the rest of the field. As I've said over and over again, if NASCAR actually got the gumption to put a similar rules package for the 1.5+ mile non-restrictor plate tracks that they used for the restrictor plate races in 2001, the racing would be better, because drafting would be more important. What they need to do is to dirty the air behind the cars more, because that would open up a bigger hole for the trailing cars to use the draft and close up on the car in front. Of course, with the 850+ horsepower of the Cup cars, they would still have enough power to break the draft, but it would be more difficult. Until that happens, the likelyhood of good racing on the high-speed tracks will not be good at all. 1654. David posted: 12.21.2012 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And, I might as well mention, when Brad was twelve years of age, Geoff Bodine won his last race. *HYPERVENTILATION* 1655. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.21.2012 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, and Brad Keselowski was 21 when his brother Brian made is CWTS debut! *SEPTUPLE GASP!* 1656. Red posted: 12.21.2012 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm with you on wrestling, but do you not watch movies?" I've been to maybe 7 or 8 movies in my life, and haven't rented or downloaded any in several years. I know that's weird, but I don't enjoy scripted entertainment. I hardly watch any television, either, with the exception of sports and informative stuff like Discovery Channel and 60 Minutes. To me, the beauty of sports is that no one knows what's going to happen, and the characters involved are real people who pour their heart and soul into what they're doing. Every game has a winner and a loser, which adds an element of meaning and intensity that doesn't exist in a scripted show. Moreover, sports leagues offer an endless stream of storylines and subplots, with each game affecting not only the current season, but also the historical record, as well as the legacies of the players and coaches involved. And for nerdy types like me, sports also produces an array of numbers and trends and probabilities to analyze, which I love doing. In contrast, when I'm finished watching a movie, even a great movie, I'm usually left with a feeling of "So what?" Even if the movie was highly entertaining, there's not much context around it to give it any deeper meaning. To me, watching a movie is very much akin to eating a meal - as soon as it's over, it's over, and there's not a whole lot that I take from it. And don't get me wrong, I totally understand why many people love movies and TV series, but I'm just a different kind of guy. Back to racing...would it be a reasonable idea to simply lower the displacement limit of Sprint Cup engines? If they could somehow get the motors down to around 650 HP instead of 850, that would lower the speeds a bit, while still allowing drivers adequate throttle response (unlike restrictor plate engines). I don't know about you guys, but I can't tell the difference between 190 and 175 MPH when I'm watching on television, so lowering speeds really wouldn't take away any of the thrill. It would, however, allow more side-by-side racing, as aero would be less important and drivers could experiment with different lines. 1657. cjs3872 posted: 12.21.2012 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's one problem with that idea, Red. With the aerodynamics and tires in use today, if you slowed the cars down that much, a driver can run wide open all the way around paces like Charlotte, Michigan, and Auto Club Speedway when it's repaved, because they're already doing 170-175 in the corners at those places, and when Atlanta's eventually repaved, the same will be true, so those places will basically become a smaller version of Daytona and Talladega. You can't slow the cars down that much and leave the driver a major part of the equation without taking quite a bit of the aerodynamics away, and reducing downforce has proven to be a disaster every time they've tried it, because the cars can't run close together without the air from other cars affecting the handling of the cars in an adverse way. 1658. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.22.2012 - 4:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hi, y'all. Boy, that was some apocalypse, wasn't it? 1659. Paul posted: 12.22.2012 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I guess my sources on the apocalypse were wrong. And by sources, I mean random connections I made up. Just call me the "Fox News of RR" (OH! That's right, I went there). :) 1660. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.22.2012 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish the apocolypse had happened. My dog of 12 years died this morning. I wish 12/22/2012 was a day that never happened. 1661. David posted: 12.22.2012 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know exactly how you feel DSFF. My dog, also 12 years old, died on September 28, 2012. I never mentioned it because I did not think there was any point in it. His name was Andrew Winston, and he was a beagle. As an interesting point, Jeff Gordon won the first Cup race after his birth (we think it was June 23, 2000), so I was pulling hard for Jeff to win the race at Dover that weekend. "Damn, I guess my sources on the apocalypse were wrong. And by sources, I mean random connections I made up." Not to mention the connections I made. I had another really good one with Neil Bonnett. He won the Busch Clash on February 12, 1984 (Brad Keselowski's birthday), driving the #12 car for Junior Johnson. The only shootout Bonnett ever served as a commentator for was in...1993! "Boy, that was some apocalypse, wasn't it?" The apocalypse must have happened in Acapulco. How's that for a tongue twister? Acapulco apocalypse. And when you are finished with that, try "a cappella apocalypse in Acapulco". 1662. Paul posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Calvin Johnson on breaking the great Jerry Rice's record for most receiving yards in a season. The Lions have been overall disappointing and will finish last in their division this season, but with this record (and several other receiving records that Calvin set this season), the Lions' 2012 season wasn't a complete waste. Sorry for your guys' recent losses with your dogs passing away. I know from having a grandpa who raised dogs (mostly rat terriers and chihuahuas) and being able to play with most of them that losing a dog is like losing a family member, and I can imagine what your guys have gone through recently. 1663. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sad news today as one of the greatest NASCAR drivers to never win a race, Curtis Crider, passed away today. 1664. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry, yesterday 1665. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Calvin Johnson's receiving yard record in a season to me is something that very impressive in terms of receiving achievements. The receiving yard record is up there with Jerry Rice's career Receptions, Rice's career receiving yards, and Rice's career touchdown receptions. The reason I am saying that due to 3 reasons. NFL players getting a 100 receptions a season isn't that rare anymore, but a NFL player getting over 1,700 yards receiving yards in a season usually doesn't happen. The 2nd reason I am impressed with Calvin Johnson's record is he had less receptions than Jerry Rice to break the receiving yards in a season. The 3rd reason is breaking Calvin Johnson's Receiving yard record in a season is going to be as hard as break Jerry Rice's career Receiving records. What made Jerry Rice's career receiving records hard to break is how long Jerry Rice was at his peak or near peak. Wide Receivers production really goes down when they hit their mid 30's in a lot of cases, and that can't be said about Jerry Rice. Jerry finally really started to decline when he was 41 yards old. What is Calvin Johnson's Receiving yard record hard to break is how many receivers are really capable of getting near 2,000 yards receiving yards a season and the fact teams usually spread the ball out for passing to a degree besides Wide Receivers getting a lot of yards after the catch. 1666. Paul posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He actually died two days ago. Curtis "Crawfish" Crider made 232 Grand National starts between 1959 and 1965, posting 14 top fives, 70 top tens, and a 6th place points finish in 1964. He also had a best finish of 3rd, which he did so three times. After he left the Grand National Division, Crider began racing on the Florida short tracks, winning the Florida State Stock Car championship three consecutive years from '72 to '74, and winning 52 feature races in that 3-year stretch. In the mid-'70s, he sold all of his race cars and kept busy restoring vintage cars, often working on them, and helping out his friends and neighbors by fixing and upkeeping their cars. According to his wife, Crider had been doing this regularly until about the last 2-3 years when his health took a sudden turn for the worse. Crider died in hospice care on Friday in Edgewater, Florida at the age of 82. He is survived by his wife Louise, and his 5 children. RIP "Crawfish". 1667. David posted: 12.23.2012 - 12:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sad news today as one of the greatest NASCAR drivers to never win a race, Curtis Crider, passed away yesterday." That is sad. Oftentimes, I don't even know these drivers were still living until they die. On the brighter side, Trevor Bayne is now engaged. 1668. David posted: 12.23.2012 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Smith is doing a Christmas Day Q&A! Tweet him your questions! Dale Jarrett's son, Zach, is now playing baseball for the Charlotte 49ers. 1669. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.23.2012 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does Dallas just sit around and think of ways to torture their fans? I don't pull for them ever cause I hate Jerry Jones, but they have some of the most loyal fans out there and they kick them in the balls every year. In good news, the Vikings won. Even though All Day won't break Dickerson's record, this puts them in playoff contention which should help AD's MVP chances (which should be all but clinched by now, but we all know how stupod the media is and how in love they are with Manning and Brady). I'm telling ya, if he doesn't win it, my words will be so angry the 1988 Ultimate Warrior will come to life, go to Vegas, find every Elvis impersonator in sight thinking they are The Honky Tonk Man, and gorilla press slam all of them then give them the big splash. 1670. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.23.2012 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha, I can't even spell "stupid" right when talking about how stupid the media is. 1671. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.23.2012 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Redskins! Redskins! Redskins! After you gorilla press slam all the Elvis impersonators, I will give you a championship belt... the same belt over and over. 1672. cjs3872 posted: 12.23.2012 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, if you're flipping out now, then I have something else that may make you flip out even more. I just revealed my top ten drivers in the history of NASCAR's top series, thus completing my top 40. You can check the blogs for the associated stats, but here is my list, as it's now completed: 1. Richard Petty 2. Jeff Gordon 3. Bobby Allison 4. Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 5. Cale Yarborough 6. Darrell Waltrip 7. David Pearson 8. Junior Johnson 9. Jimmie Johnson 10. Herb Thomas 11. Buck Baker 12. Fireball Roberts 13. Rusty Wallace 14. Tony Stewart 15. Lee Petty 16. Bill Elliott 17. Mark Martin 18. Tim Flock 19. Ned Jarrett 20. Bobby Isaac 21. Fred Lorenzen 22. Dale Jarrett 23. Buddy Baker 24. Benny Parsons 25. Joe Weatherly 26. Matt Kenseth 27. Terry Labonte 28. Bobby Labonte 29. Ricky Rudd 30. Jim Paschal 31. Harry Gant 32. Geoff Bodine 33. Rex White 34. Jeff Burton 35. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 36. Davey Allison 37. Kurt Busch 38. Kyle Busch 39. Neil Bonnett 40. Denny Hamlin Again, if anyone wants to check the stats and other associated accomplishments of those listed above, such as championships, big race wins, and other notable achievements, check out my blog posts on the top 40 drivers in NSCS history. 1673. David posted: 12.23.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't tempt him, cjs. "2. Jeff Gordon 3. Bobby Allison 4. Dale Earnhardt, Sr." Prepare for site server meltdown. 1674. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.23.2012 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not saying I will become the Ultimate Warrior, but the anger from my words wwill conjure the presence of the 1988 Ultimate Warrior. 1675. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.24.2012 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Honestly, I don't care about driver rankings anymore. I only care about fun rankings. For example, here are the ten most hilarious fails in New York Jets history. 10) That Herm Edwards press conference 9) Keyshawn Johnson's entire tenure there 8) Fireman Ed finally saying "I can't stand being associated with these losers anymore" 7) Rex Ryan boasting in his book that the Jets are now the #1 team in New York and the #1 AFC East team and the very next Super Bowl was the Pats vs the Giants. 6) Lou Holtz's tenure as coach there 5) Bill Belichek taking the head coaching job for like 27 minutes, leaving for the Pats, then starting a dynasty over there 4) DRUNK JOE NAMATH ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL 3) Rich Kotite 2) The Fake Spike 1) BUTTFUMBLE BUTTFUMBLE BUTTFUMBLE! 1676. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.24.2012 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, for #9, swap Keyshawn Johnson out, and swap in another Johnson: the Brett Favre dong pics. 1677. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.24.2012 - 8:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So... with the Seahawks win last night, are they the best team in the NFC? Depending on how next week's games work out either they, the Redskins, or the Packers will probably be the NFC playoff favorite. Right now I'd pick the Seahawks to represent the NFC in and win the Superbowl. It just seems they are the best offensive and defensive team right now. 1678. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.24.2012 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, All Day still has a chance to break Eric Dickerson's record. All Day is 208 yards away from going it. Green Bay gave up 210 yards to him the last time the Packers faced the Vikings. While Green Bay is a bit healthier now defensively, they are not a great run stopping team. 1679. Paul posted: 12.24.2012 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packerfan4ver beat me to it, but yes there is still a chance that A.D. will break Dickerson's record. It's not likely since he needs to rush for 208 yards and he has only broken the 200-yard barrier twice this season, but given that he ran for 210 yards against them about a month ago in Green Bay, as well as the fact that the Packers don't a great run defense, it's still possible that A.D. will break Dickerson's record. And if not, he can still go for 102 rushing yards and become just the 7th player to rush for 2,000 yards in a season, which is still an incredibly impressive feat. If the Vikings make the playoffs, I think A.D. should hands-down be the league MVP. 1680. Paul posted: 12.24.2012 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've finally reached my boiling point with Diva Newton. It was bad enough that he acted like an entitled jerk at the Pro Bowl, does the "Superman pose" when his team is losing to the Chiefs, and takes none of the blame for his team's lack of success this season, but for him to act cheap and get away with breaking the rules yesterday against the Raiders (my 2nd favorite team) was too much for me. First he gets sacked and decides to kick Tommy Kelly (the player who sacked him) in the facemask, which is just about the cheapest thing you can do to somebody. And since Kelly is a man, he got angry and tried to go after Diva, which got him ejected from the game. WTF?! It didn't make any sense because other players got in between them before he could kick his ass (or face, for that matter). I guess if Ndamukong Suh does it, it's an automatic ejection and adds to his reputation as a dirty player. But when "The Superstar" does it, the other player gets ejected for standing up for himself. I hope Diva gets fined big time for that because that was ridiculous what he did out there. And then not long after that, Michael Mitchell tackles Diva after he threw the ball, to which Diva sprung to his feet and tried to act all tough towards Mitchell after the whistle, but in doing so bumped the referee, which drew a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Now why is it he bumps the official and only gets penalized 15 yards, but a couple years ago 49ers lineman Justin Smith moved an official out of the way and got ejected? Favoritism perhaps? Either way, Diva proves once again that he doesn't like to be hit on the football field, rivaling only Tom Brady as the biggest Diva quarterback in the NFL. Jay Cutler is lovable compared to this asshole. I used to pull for the Panthers, especially during the Jake Delhomme years, but I will always root against them as long as Diva Newton is the quarterback. If he gets hurt or suspended and Derek Anderson or (shudder) Jimmy Clausen become the starting QB, I'll pull for them. But as long as #1 is on the field, they can lose every game for all I care. 1681. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.24.2012 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, to add to the diva-ness of Diva, consider this: He has the arrogance to wear the #1, something that is basically forbidden in football. 1682. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.24.2012 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) More rankings time! QBs frowned upon historically (fairly or unfairly) I'd rather have quarterbacking my Panthers than Cam Newton: 10) Jeff George 9) Eric Couch 8) Chargers era Johnny U 7) Art Schliester after he bet money on the other team 6) 2000 Troy Aikman 5) Def Leppard's drummer 4) That guy from Scary Movie who kills the fat kid 3) Brett Favre's tiny penis 2) TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 1) BOWWWWWWWWWW 1683. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.24.2012 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Btw, the correct name for Newton is $cam Newton in reference to the fact he had to take a pay cut to go from being the QB of Auburn to the Panthers. That National title from Auburn will be vacated soon. 1684. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.24.2012 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright cjs, I'll throw you a bone. Here is a list from me in response to your list. Top 10 excuses cjs has for placing David Pearson SEVENTH on his list: 10) Recent move to either Colorado or Washington 9) Recent head concussion from a highway crash involving John Wes Townley 8) Thought the 105 number in the win column was a typo, must be either 10 or 5 7) Severe penalty for smoking cigarettes in the middle of races, bad example for the kids 6) Bought a Purolator oil filter once and had problems with it 5) Was very rude at the end of the '76 Daytona 500, instead of stopping to help Richard out when he was broke down in the grass, he just drove right past him 4) Unlike the guy he replaced in the 21 car, AJ Foyt, he never bitch slapped some tiny annoying foreigner into some shrubbery 3) Still mad he wrecked Ned Jarrett out of that mid 60's race on the quarter mile track in Randleman 2) Thinks Spartanburg is home to real life Spartans, therefore 3 championships in only 4 attempts, 105 wins in 524 starts, and "only" 10 Darlington wins is kinda weak 1) Seriously dude, what the hell? 1685. Paul posted: 12.25.2012 - 2:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "5) Was very rude at the end of the '76 Daytona 500, instead of stopping to help Richard out when he was broke down in the grass, he just drove right past him" The four main characters from Seinfeld were all imprisoned for one year for watching and not stopping a carjacking. Perhaps cjs is a strong believer in that "good Samaritan rule" and resulted in Pearson's "low" ranking. I know he has a different reason for that, but I still believe this would be a more acceptable reason. "10) Jeff George" Jeff George was a very talented QB, but he was very arrogant and didn't like to follow anyone's rules other than his own, basically making him the Robby Gordon of the NFL. I'll always remember the great job he did rallying the Vikings to the playoffs after an 0-2 start under the suddenly "past his prime" Randall Cunningham in '99. "2) TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 1) BOWWWWWWWWWW" Not related to what you were talking about, but I am so glad that Tebow is pretty much refusing to play for the Jets next week, as he has told the team, after they decided to go with Greg McElroy (a.k.a. "the next Joe Namath"), that he refuses to be used in a wildcat package. Good for him. They pretty much screwed him out of a whole season by luring him away from the Jaguars (who would have used him and won more than 2 games this season) by promising him a lot of money and the opportunity to start for a playoff contending team, and then had no interest in starting him when it became clear that Sanchez wasn't the guy. It's shit like this that explains why the Jets haven't been to a Super Bowl in almost 44 years. Brett Favre wasn't even born when the Jets last went to the Super Bowl, meanwhile their New York counterparts (Giants and Bills) have been to 9 Super Bowls since then, winning 4 of them. And while they're cleaning house with two of their QBs and possibly their GM, they should fire their worthless head coach as well. What a bunch of losers. "Btw, the correct name for Newton is $cam Newton in reference to the fact he had to take a pay cut to go from being the QB of Auburn to the Panthers. That National title from Auburn will be vacated soon." I'm not one of these crazy football fans like those in Alabama, but I have always pulled for the Crimson Tide (even though I despise the SEC, and consider Texas A&M sell-outs for abandoning their Big 12 traditions) and was happy to see the ass-kicking they gave to Auburn this year after all of their paid athletes had graduated. Whether his nickname is $cam, Diva, or Hello Kitty (if you've seen the memes, you'll understand), Newton fits the descriptions of all three and is a spoiled brat who may soon alienate his way out of the NFL if he doesn't grow up. Btw DSFF, you forgot to put the kid from that Cam Newton commercial on your top 10 list. "I'm just loosening my arm." HAHAHA! I love that kid! 1686. Matt G posted: 12.25.2012 - 2:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does the loist of most hilarious fails in New York Jets history only contain 10 items? You could easily make a top 100 out of that. 1687. Sean posted: 12.25.2012 - 4:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "4) Unlike the guy he replaced in the 21 car, AJ Foyt, he never bitch slapped some tiny annoying foreigner into some shrubbery" Arie Luyendyk did think a bit too highly of himself. In terms of results, he was the Sterling Marlin of IndyCar. Great at the marquee race, no matter what he was driving; usually had above average rides but rarely had powerhouse ones and occasionally had downright shitty ones; solid but unspectacular over most of the schedule outside Daytona/Indy. Yet solely due to his success at Indy Luyendyk did seem to act like he was as successful as the big seven of his general era (Mario Andretti/Michael Andretti/Emerson Fittipaldi/Rick Mears/Bobby Rahal/Danny Sullivan/Al Unser, Jr.) when he was clearly second-tier apart from Indy (he probably WAS the best other than those seven, but still...) Marlin at least didn't think he was one of the greats and seemed to have a sense of humor about himself... Having said all that, Luyendyk was right at Texas as he did win the race. Maybe going into victory lane to challenge Foyt and Billy Boat was not the best course of action (he should have gone to the officials first), but Foyt was and it kind of disturbs me you defend him for that. Earnhardt was obnoxious on track quite often, but he was usually (relatively) decent and respectable off-track. Foyt crossed the line that his disciple and namesake Tony Stewart crossed all too often in his early years in Cup. It's hard for me to take Foyt seriously now (besides respecting his racing accomplishments) since I started watching racing about that time and he's been an utter buffoon as a car owner, especially by whining about how all the other car owners hire foreign ride-buyers, yet Foyt has hired mediocre-to-bad foreign drivers (Eliseo Salazar, Airton Dare, Vitor Meira, Mike Conway, on and on and on, supposedly Takuma Sato next year and THAT will be hilarious for so many reasons). Kenny Brack is fine. He was a great driver, but to whine about "not enough 'mericans" as he loves to do and not hire them comes off as a case of sour grapes. He was employing bad foreign drivers at times when Buddy Rice and Ryan Hunter-Reay were completely rideless so I can't really stand him anymore. Foyt was obviously greater than Luyendyk (by ten or twenty times), but as annoying as Luyendyk is (and he IS), Foyt is so much worse... Yeah, Richard Petty's been just as incompetent as a car owner, but at least he hasn't been a jerkass since his retirement... 1688. Sean posted: 12.25.2012 - 4:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) but Foyt was [far more out of line] and it kind of disturbs me you defend him for that 1689. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.25.2012 - 1:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Buon natale a tutti! 1690. cjs3872 posted: 12.25.2012 - 2:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the biggest reason I have David Pearson seventh on my list (and it will be eighth by the time Jimmie Johnson's through) is the relative lack of competition he faced when he was at his best. Remmber that when Darrell Waltrip and Cale Yarborough were at their best, the competition level was much higher than what Pearson had to face, and even Richard Petty fared better when the competition got tougher, twice winning the Daytona 500 after Pearson's 1976 win there, and let's not forget that at one time, Petty won the three most competitive Daytona 500s ever (1971, 1974, 1981). Again, it's not that Pearson couldn't handle the stiffer competition. It's just that he never got the chance. But after his big 1976 season in which he became the sport's second Triple Crown winner (after LeeRoy Yarbrough), he also seemed to lose his desire to compete at the highest level, as he became too conservative, which came home to roost after the 1979 Daytona 500, when he was in a crash he had no business being in because he was running around cars and drivers he should never have been around. But 105 wins in 574 starts (not 524 as you mentioned) is nothing to sneeze at. I just think the lack of competition he faced in relation to the other icons in front of him slightly decreases the significance of what he did. The same is true about Richard Petty, but his accomplishments are so towering, that it cancels out the lack of competition he often faced, especially prior to 1972, hence he's still #1. And the competition level is a big reason why I say that if Jeff Gordon gets to 100 wins, that I'll move him up to #1, a once-untinkable thought to have anyone other than Richard Petty #1. The same would be true of Jimmie Johnson, but his winning has slowed down dramatically the last couple of years, and I don't see him getting to 100 wins. A driver in today's NASCAR getting to 100 wins would, in my view, be more impressive than Richard Petty getting 200 wins, because of the competition level being so much higher. 1691. Paul posted: 12.25.2012 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey Gase will return to the #52 car full-time for Jimmy Means in the Nationwide Series next season. 1692. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.25.2012 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry bud, all that still doesn't come close to explaining Pearson way down in 7th. I don't care if he raced against 40 Danica Patrick clones every week, he won 3 championships in 4 season for two different owners and manufacturers (back when cars actually drove different) and STILL hadn't peaked as a driver yet. He wound up with 105 wins (in a "whopping" 574 starts, I apologize for the error in making it sound like he had an outstanding winning percentage, and by the was, were any of those 105 races won without The King in the field) 10 of which came at Darlington, the ultimate test of driver. As for his record at Daytona, what about Petty's record at Darlington compared to Pearson? You can't value one thing over another like that. Every driver had at least one discipline of racing they were comparitively weak at. For Petty it was Darlington. For Pearson it was racing in February at Daytona. He did much better in the hot, humid, and slick summer race. Sorry, but any list with Pearson lower than 3rd is unacceptable. And also, if weak competition is a huge factor, then how do you justify having Gordon 2nd and Earnhardt 4th? Compare the fields against which Dale won his 6 RCR titles to the fields Gordon peaked against. 1693. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.26.2012 - 5:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To make your point, DSFF, Gordon and Earnhardt basically competed against the same drivers, albeit at different ages in those drivers careers, but Earnhardt won 6 to Gordon's 4. 1694. cjs3872 posted: 12.26.2012 - 11:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I was just poiting out, in the case of mentioning Daytona, the Petty was better against a higher level of competition. After all, as I mentioned, for a brief year or two, Petty had won the three most competitive Daytona 500s ever run. Darlington was the perfect track for David Pearson, no doubt about it, because he was conservative, and often had no competition left at the end of the race. His driving style and Darlington fit perfectly together. And for whatever reason, Darlington never got along with the Pettys, as it was the one significant track Lee never won at, Richard only won there three times, and never won there after the 1967 Southern 500, though he finished second there about 10 or 12 times (though his last serious brush with victroy came there in the 1987 Southern 500), and Kyle detested the place so much that he said they should fill the track with water and hold fishing contests there. Not to mention that Richard had the worst crash of his career there in 1970. And as for ranking Jeff Gordon second ahead of Dale, Sr., that comes down to versatility more than it does level of competition, though Dale had most of his competition beat before the race even started. but as for the level of competition, I would actually rate Jeff's tougher by the slightest margin, because there were more cars and teams capable of winning. But I'll say this. The competition that both Jeff and Dale had to battle against is/was tougher than the competition that Jimmie Johnson had to contend with throughout most of his championshbip seasons. But my placing Jeff ahead of Dale has more to do with versatility than the level of competition. And you should know by now that number of championships don't mean everything to me. The fact that I have Bobby Allison, who only won the championship once (in 1983) ahead of Dale, Sr., who won it seven times, should itself be proof of that. 1695. cjs3872 posted: 12.26.2012 - 11:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Webmaster, please delete post #1695, as that was an accidental double post. This sometimes happens because my computer is slow to respond, which is what caused that to happen. 1696. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.26.2012 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So basically you use a different criteria when ranking each driver to make it fit your list? 1697. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.26.2012 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, that's how we all do it. 1698. cjs3872 posted: 12.26.2012 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I use multiple criterias. I use competition level, versatility, championships, big race wins, and numerous others when ranking the drivers. However, one thing that certainly factors in where the post-1980 drivers are concerned is that their numbers aren't inflated by the fact that a number of the top drivers and teams didn't choose to enter events, or by a shallow competition pool. That may be one argument in favor of listing someone like Jimmie Johnson higher whn his body of work comes closer to actually being complete. Competition level is a big thing I factored in when I listed David Pearson where I did, and why it's even a thought to have someone other than Richard Petty ranked #1 in the future. I don't currently because of how towering his accomplishments are, but I've also said that if anyone got to 100 wins, I'd rank that driver #1 ahead of Richard, because 100 wins now is far more impressive than 200 in the era that Richard and his contemporaries raced in, because of the competition and the shorter schedule than was raced from the late 50s through 1971 (48-60 races back then compared to the 36 of today and the low 30s prior to 1999). I use versatility as a factor in ranking Jeff Gordon and Bobby Allison ahead of Dale Earnhardt, Sr., because they were more versatile than Dale, Sr. was, and of course, also won more races at more tracks. In fact, the only reason Dale, Sr. is ranked where is would be his seven championships, including three sets of back-to-back championships. I rank Cale Yarborough ahead of Darrell Waltrip and I rank Junior Johnson where I do because of dominance. Milestone race wins and achievements are important, but I had to be careful not to penalize the old-timers too much on that front because they didn't have as many big races as you have now. And of course, there's the question where Jimmie Johnson's concerned about his championships and comparing that to the championships won over a full season, instead of ten races, and the same will be true of other multiple champions in the future for the same reason, because I do think the championship is watered down compared to when it was over what the drivers did over a full season. So, as you see, there were a multitude of factors that I had to weigh in when I made that list. 1699. JG24FanForever posted: 12.26.2012 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Every Modern era record I can think of(at the moment): Championships: Dale Earnhardt 7 Wins: Jeff Gordon 87 Races Led Most: Jeff Gordon 90 Poles: Jeff Gordon 72 Most wins in a season: Richard Petty/Jeff Gordon 13 Most Laps led in a season: Bobby Allison 4343 in 1972 Most Poles in a season: Cale Yarborough 14 in 1980 Most races led most in a season: Cale Yarborough: 14 in 1976 Best single season Win%: David Pearson .611% in 1976 Most consecutive wins by starts: David Pearson 5 in 1973 Winning %: David Pearson .218%(45 wins in 206 starts) Best 5 year win%: Jeff Gordon .291% (47 in 161 starts from 1995-99) Most consecutive seasons with the most wins: Jeff Gordon 5 from 1995-99 Most consecutive seasons with the most Races Led Most: Jeff Gordon 4 from 2001-2004 Most consecutive seasons with the most poles: David Pearson/Ryan Newman 4 Most seasons with the most Wins with tie breakers: Jeff Gordon 6 Most seasons with the most Races Led Most: Jeff Gordon 9 Most seasons with the most Poles: Jeff Gordon 6 Most Southern 500/Darlington Night race wins: Jeff Gordon 6 Most Daytona 500 race wins: Richard Petty 4 Most World 600/Coke product event race wins: Darrell Waltrip 5 Most Brickyard 400/some very lame and lengthy name race wins: Jeff Gordon/Jimmie Johnson 4 Most Spring Talladega(Nascar's Fastest event both by Qualfiying in 1987 and a full race in 1997)race wins: Jeff Gordon 4 Most Restrictor Plate race wins: Jeff Gordon 12 Short-Track wins: Darrell Waltrip 47 Giant-Track(2.5 Mile+ SuperSpeedway's)wins: Jeff Gordon 22 Road-Course wins: Jeff Gordon 9 Flat-Track wins(Phoenix,Ontario,Indy,Pocono,New Hampshire) wins: Jeff Gordon 15 SuperSpeedway(traditional 1 Mile+ definition)wins: Jeff Gordon 63 Most tracks with at least 1 win: Jeff Gordon 24 Most tracks with at least 2 wins: Jeff Gordon 19 Most tracks with at least 3 wins: Jeff Gordon 15 Most tracks with at least 4 wins: Jeff Gordon 13 Most Top 2 finishes: Jeff Gordon 152 Most Podium finishes: Jeff Gordon 207 Most Top 5 finishes: Jeff Gordon 298 Most Top 10 finishes: Mark Martin 448 Most Crown Jewel wins: Jeff Gordon 22 Most consecutive Crown Jewel wins: Jeff Gordon 4 from 1998-99 Most consecutive Road-Race wins: Jeff Gordon 6 from 1997-00 Most consecutive Short-Track wins: Cale Yarborough 8 from 1977-78 Most consecutive Plate race wins: Dale Earnhardt 3 in 1990 I'll end at that with Big E book ending the "Short" list. 1700. murb posted: 12.26.2012 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) See, I use the pyramid system to rank guys on the "greatest of all time" scale. Virtually every driver has had different careers with different qualities of rides with different competition levels. So I just think it's unfair to compare present day drivers with past drivers and to say that one is better than the other. Grouping them together into different levels based on stats and overall impact on the sport seems to be the way to go for me. But, that's just me. I can't remember what race it was, but I gave my whole pyramid list on one of the races in 2012. I think I might go hunt through the archives tonight so I can repost it on here, since we have some fascinating discussion going on yet again with this topic. Also, I want to apologize for not posting that much recently. I've just been busy with a lot of stuff. But since I'm on a bit of a break for the holidays, I'll be sure to pop in more throughout the next couple weeks!!! 1701. Paul posted: 12.26.2012 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So much for Jimmie Johnson "murdering" Jeff Gordon historically. 1702. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.26.2012 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So how important is the equipment they are racing in your rankings? Do drivers get penalized if they have teammates that show up seemingly out of nowhere and eclipse them in many relevant categories in a short amount of time? Do drivers get boosted if they win a championship or multiple championships for owners who could never replicate anywhere close to the success they had before or after that driver showed up (like Cotton Owens, Rod Osterlund, Raymond Beadle, Richard Childress, etc)? And for the life of me, your "Pearson had weak competition" argument makes no sense. He won his first 3 races, all major speedway races, in 1961. He won his final race, the Spring Darlington race, his 10th there and rain shortened to boot (proving the "he waited for everyone else to screw up to win Darlington so many times" claim false). In between he won 101 other races, every big one, 3 championships in 4 attempts. Do you realized how many drivers peaked over that time period? Look at the drivers ahead of him that peaked in your ranking (Petty, Yarborough, Allison). Yes the fields in the 70s were top heavy, but loook at the drivers at the top! Petty, Yarborough, Allison, Baker, Parsons, waltrip). And what about all the factory backed teams he beat into the ground in the mid to late 60s. Bottom line, any list with The Silver Fox ranked SEVENTH is invalid. Especially with Gordon FIVE spots ahead of him. I have always looked at Jeff as "Pearson lite". And for the claim that competition was tougher during Jeff's titles than Dale's is simply as false as it gets. All the legends from Dale's era (including Dale) were either past their prime, injured, stupidly going the owner/driver route, or a combo of the above. The driivers that peaked from '95-'01 were Mark Martin, Jeff Burton, Dale Jarrett, and Bobby Labonte. All were WAY too nice on track for their own good. 1703. JG24FanForever posted: 12.26.2012 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have always looked at Jeff as "Pearson lite"." Agreed. 1704. Paul posted: 12.26.2012 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Motorsports Group (previously known as Key Motorsports) will be building their own engines next year, rather than use the ECR engines they had been using the past few years. I'm sure part of this decision had to due with cost, but it doesn't look good for the ECR engine shop that not only is their co-engine provider Earnhardt Ganassi leaving for their competitor, but one of their smaller teams is leaving to house their own engines. Also, despite having a Cup engine supplier, Curtis Key's team was outrun by independent drivers Jeremy Clements and Joe Nemechek, as well as independent teams like TriStar and JD Motorsports for most, if not all, of the 2012 season, so having a Cup engine supplier like ECR didn't seem to give them any competitive advantage. 1705. cjs3872 posted: 12.26.2012 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, when I think of David Pearson's greatest years, the field was hardly what I call "top-heavy". As I've said, no more than 15-20% of the field was capable of winning back then if everything went right, and usually, the 6-8 cars that were capable of winning usually ended up being two or three at the end. Pearson's 1976 Daytona 500 win was a classic example of this. Pearson and Richard Petty were two laps ahead of the field, with Benny Parsons two laps behind in third and running with a sick engine, when they crashed coming off the last corner. And there were races where someone like Petty's, Pearson's, Cale Yarborough's or Bobby Allison's car was literally the only good car left in the race, resulting in insane victory margins. Heck, Pearson had the Winston 500 in 1973 won on the 11th lap because his was the only good car not wiped out in the lap 9 crash. And the fields for many of the races back in the factory era when Pearson won his championships and when Richard Petty piled up ungodly statistics, had half the big names not even show up because they were not big enough races. That's one reason I say that Pearson and especially Richard Petty and even Bobby Allison fattened up their statistics against extraordinarily weak fields, something that really didn't change until the mid 70s. In fact, the fields for some of those races was so poor, that Grand American cars were allowed in, and they won three of those races, two with Tiny Lund and one with Allison. And then when the factories pulled out after the 1970 season, several top drivers were left without rides, simply because there were not very many good cars. That left drivers such as Pete Hamilton, Donnie Allison, Charlie Glotzbach, and Dick Brooks, among others without top rides, and it resulted in Cale Yarborough leaving NASCAR all together for two years, not returning until 1973, when Richard Howard's car (Howard, not Junior Johnson, owned that team at that time) opened up when Bobby Allison left. And also, you mention strength of equipment. Remember that David Pearson did not even qualify for the Daytona 500 in 1972 when he was chosen as Bud Moore's driver when Moore returned from sports car racing, and he drove some races in 1971 for a man named Chris Ballo, and never even finished one. Except for late 1974 and 1975, when he won four times in Penske's Matadors, Bobby Allison struggled mightily from 1973-'77, not winning at all in 1976 and '77, and when he raced the Magnum in 1978, Richard Petty was so far off the pace, that his team changed to Chevrolets in 1978, and he went winless for the first time since his rookie year (1959). Certainly injuries had something to do with that, but he was horridly off the pace most of that year. And Pearson went more than six years between wins on speedways. After his three speedway wins in 1961, he didn't win again on a speedway until 1968. So yes, equipment does matter, especially on speedways, but often elite drivers back in the 60s and early 70s would fatten their statistics running the full schedule, which included many short track races (and dirt track races prior to 1971) against horridly weak fields because they didn't pay very much. Pearson did that, but so did Petty, Ned Jarrett, and even Bobby Allison and Bobby Isaac. 1706. Paul posted: 12.27.2012 - 3:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With his 12th Pro Bowl selection, Peyton Manning is now the leading quarterback in Pro Bowl selections (ironically passing Brett Favre, who holds virtually every quarterback record, including most pictures of his genitals sent to team employees) and is tied for 6th place in total Pro Bowl selections, along with other active greats that don't get nearly enough attention, like Tony Gonzalez and Champ Bailey. It's a shame that a lot of people will look at this and automatically think that "Eli's brother" (my new nickname for Peyton until he either wins another Super Bowl or stops doing Papa John's commercials; I have a strong disliking towards their CEO) is the greatest QB ever just because he wins the fan vote every year. All the Pro Bowl is is an achievement that tells people "I was a good/great player", and it shouldn't be a measuring stick for greatness. I love Tony Gonzalez, but I still consider John Mackey the greatest tight end of all-time, even though Gonzalez has seven more Pro Bowl selections than Mackey. Sadly, I will bet anything that people will look at this and think "Eli's brother is the greatest quarterback ever." Ugh. For the record, I am calling Peyton "Eli's brother" because of his relative lack of success in the playoffs (or as how the sports pundits describe it, "The Real Season") compared to Eli Manning. Despite playing in 8 fewer playoff games than his older brother, Eli has only one less playoff win (8-3) than Peyton has (9-10), giving Eli an impressive 73% playoff win percentage to Peyton's 47% playoff win percentage. Given the fact that Eli has one less playoff win in 8 fewer games than his brother, as well as a much higher winning percentage, twice as many Super Bowl victories, and twice as many Super Bowl MVP awards as his more talented brother, I'd say that me referring to Peyton as "Eli's brother" is highly justified given Eli's better performances and record in the playoffs (also known as "The Real Season"). When I think of Eli Manning, I think of his comeback wins over the Patriots in the Super Bowls (the team that his brother has a losing record against), including one where he guaranteed himself to being an elite quarterback prior to the season (a la Joe Namath, anyone?). When I think of Peyton Manning, I think of his stunning losses to inferior teams like the Jets (twice), Chargers (twice), and Steelers (which allowed Big Ben to have as many Super Bowl rings as Eli). So in short, Eli is the less talented winner (a la Bobby Labonte), while Peyton is the more talented loser (a la Denny Hamlin). And as I've said many times before, I'll pass on great talent and shaky championship results in favor of less talent and successful championship results any day. 1707. Paul posted: 12.27.2012 - 3:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't mention them in my last post, but would anyone else agree that the Denver Broncos are the RCR of the NFL? Neither team had much (if any) success before they got hooked up with one of their sport's all-time greats. Then once they finally had that all-time great in their respective lineups (John Elway for the Broncos, Dale Earnhardt for RCR) in the mid-'80s, they started to win and grab people's attention. For the next 15 years, their organizations were one of the best, if not the best, teams in their sports before losing Elway and (tragically) Earnhardt, who were still one of the best at the end of their careers. Once they were gone, their former teams tried for years to replace them, but to no avail, and only achieved moderate success over the next decade. Obviously the Broncos are in much better shape than RCR is right now since they pretty much abandoned all hope of developing a great quarterback and instead just bought the best one available, and now RCR is going down the same route by signing Kurt Busch, who like Peyton is a shaky playoff contender. And it should be no surprise that key figures in both organizations, such as head coach Mike Shanahan and Richard Childress himself, take and are given far too much credit for their team's past success, when in fact most, if not all, of that success should be attributed to Elway and Earnhardt. Shanahan looks like a genius now since he traded up to draft RG3 and has somehow guided the Redskins to a possible playoff berth after a bad start, but believe me, neither of these men are geniuses. They only look like geniuses because they got lucky by obtaining one of their sports all-time greats (which should give Redskins fans something to cheer about, since RG3 joins John Elway as the only two men that can make Mike Shanahan look like a genius). Also, it's worth noting that Earnhardt had great confidence going into the '98 Daytona 500 after Elway finally succeeded at winning a Super Bowl the month prior, saying something along the lines of "If John Elway can win the Super Bowl, I can win the Daytona 500." 1708. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.27.2012 - 5:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, Dale said he saw that look in John's eyes when he finally got to hoist the Lombardi trophy and he wanted to feel that by finally winning the Daytona 500. And he did. The good news about Peyton is that it looks like Denver will get the #2 seed and the Pats will get the #3 seed. So we are setting up for yet another Peyton one and done. That is the stunning thing to me. SEVEN one and dones in the post season, four at home. As for Peyton and Big Ben, here is the difference between those two. Compare the Steelers playoff game on the road (ironically against Peyton and the Colts) where Ben ran down that defensive back after his goal line fumble recovery, somehow tripping him up. Then, in Super Bowl 44, when Peyton threw the back breaking, Favre-esque pick six, he made such a pathetic half assed run towards the DB that never had a chance but could have, a Saints player blatently blocked Peyton in the back right in front of the ref, he did nothing and nobody feels like he should have. If Peyton was gonna give that poor of an effort, especially on the big stage, then he doesn't deserve a flag. 1709. 18fan posted: 12.27.2012 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eli is a great postseason performer but is a mediocre quarterback during the regular season and I think he is elite only if you look at his postseason numbers. 1710. Paul posted: 12.27.2012 - 11:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heck, even Tom Brady can say he's made a touchdown-saving tackle, when he did so a couple weeks ago against the 49ers. Of course, it didn't really matter in the end since soon after that the 49ers remembered how to score and held onto their lead and won the game, but if Tom Brady, the poster boy for diva quarterbacks, can make a touchdown-saving tackle (and in a regular season game after the Patriots had already clinched the division, with almost nothing to play for), I think Peyton could have made a better effort to make the tackle. It seemed like he was more concerned with not being hit than he was making the tackle on Tracy Porter and he pretty much ran out of the play. 1711. Paul posted: 12.27.2012 - 11:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Greg McElroy has a concussion and will be inactive this weekend, so the Jets have decided to go back to Mark Sanchez at quarterback. What the hell for? The season's already lost, the playoffs are out of the question, and he won't be back next year, why not at least entertain the fans and play Tim Tebow instead? What do they have to lose?! Oh, and I love Rex Ryan's quote about this decision: "When you look at the circumstances we're in...it's the right decision." Dude, your season is over, your fanbase is sick and tired of you (even Fireman Ed, the biggest Jets fan of all), and now you're going back to the guy that put you in this hole that won't be back in 2013. Why not just put Tebow in and see what you could have had this season? What do you have to lose? This team is just full of bad decisions that occur over and over, year after year, coach after coach. It's a never-ending circus of bad decisions by the Jets, and this comes off as no surprise to me. I hope Rex Ryan gets fired after this game because he is the most responsible for their failures the last two seasons. Oh, and Adam Snyder of the Cardinals (formerly offensive tackle of the 49ers) has said that he wants his team to go after his former teammate Alex Smith in the offseason. By making this statement, Snyder has already made more good decisions than the Jets have all season. 1712. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.27.2012 - 12:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hooker Hood has passed away :( 1713. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.27.2012 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Have I mentioned the Jets are a monument of fail yet? 1714. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2012 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, there's another reason why Adam Snyder, whoever he is, would want to go after Alex Smith. Not only would he be helping the Cardinals, but he would also be hurting a division rival, which is almost as important. After all, the Cardinal defense is better than many people think it is, once intercepting Matt Ryan five times in the Georgia Dome earlier this season, but their offense is as inept as the Jets, if not worse, as hard as that is to believe. Speaking of the Jets, it's not hard to imagine Greg McElroy having a concussion. That would figure to happen to any quarterback that's sacked 11 times in one game, as he was against the Chargers last week. And Rex Ryan not starting Tebow proves that his ego just won't let him play Tebow, because he fears Tebow will have a good game, because that would push Tebow to the front page, somethng Ryan just can't stand. I know if I was the head coach (thank goodness I'm not), I would have put Tebow in as early as the second half of the third game, or the fourth game, because it was obvious they weren't going anywhere with Sanchez. Ryan's not afraid of McElroy getting the headlines the same way he's afraid of Tebow getting the headlines, and I think whoever's coaching them next year should install McElroy as the starting QB see if he has what it takes. As the greatest player in Jets history, Hall of Fame QB Joe Namath, put it, McElroy has the poise, confidence, and leadership skills to be a QB at the NFL level. Arm strength may be another matter, but as I remember, that didn't hold guys like Joe Montana, Fran Tarkenton, or even ex-Jet Brad Pennington, among others, back. 1715. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.27.2012 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs made a mistake! cjs made a mistake! It's Chad Pennington, not Brad. 1716. Paul posted: 12.27.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, Adam Snyder is the starting center for the Cardinals, and previously played seven seasons for the 49ers as a guard and tackle (including last year when they reached the NFC Championship Game). You make a good point about why he would want Alex Smith on his team with the Cardinals, not only because it will strengthen his team, but also taking a player from within the division might just give them an edge when the player the 49ers next season. I always like Chad Pennington and thought that he was never given proper respect as the Jets starting quarterback. After all, he did lead the Jets to a shutout victory over Peyton's Colts 41-0 in 2002, his first ever playoff game, and always gave the Jets a chance to win and make the playoffs when he stayed healthy. And I still think he got snubbed for the 2008 Pro Bowl by Brett Favre, but I guess him leading the Dolphins over Favre's Jets in the '08 regular season finale and knocking the Jets out of the playoffs in the process made up for it. I'm still upset that the NFL Network didn't list that game in their Top Ten Revenge Games, instead listing Cedric Benson's game against the Bears in '09 (did anyone really care about that game?). Also, there was a poll on SportsNation asking who the fans wanted to win the Redskins/Cowboys game this weekend, and every state except for Texas voted for the Redskins. So much for them being called "America's Team". 1717. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.27.2012 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another thing, Tebow is gonna be PISSED about this season. I can see him using the anger from spending a season being kicked in the balls over and over again as motivation and become a top "signal caller" in the league. 1718. cjs3872 posted: 12.27.2012 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, yeah, NicoRosbergFan, rub it in. I meant Chad Pennington, but got the first name wrong (how I could have called him Brad, I have no idea). And Paul, everyone talks about the Dallas Cowboys being "America's Team". Actually, NFL Films gave them that nickname when they titled the 1978 Dallas Cowboys highlight film "America's Team", and the name has stuck ever since. It's odd because they play in the same division as the team from the nation's capital (Washington), the better-known team from the biggest city in the USA (New York), and the team from where this country's founding fathers signed the Declaration of Independence (Philadelphia), yet it's the Cowboys that have the name "America's Team", a team that plays in the city where the last Presidential assassination took place nearly 50 years ago. And every time the Cowboys have met the Pittsburgh Steelers in the Super Bowl, the Cowboys fans have been badly outnumbered. In fact, if any one NFL team can be called "America's Team", it's the Pittsburgh Steelers, because they've always been a representation of the grit and determination of the working man. 1719. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.28.2012 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell, just a few weeks ago when Pittsburgh played in Dallas (the game where Big Ben ended the game by throwing a Romo) it looked like a Steelers home game with all the terrible towels. 1720. Paul posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just knew that after their loss to the Cowboys that the Steelers weren't going to make the playoffs. Not just because they had to face a tough Bengals team for the final playoff spot, but because of the way that Big Ben walked off the field with tears in his eyes and his head down. I think he took that loss against the Cowboys too hard, and it affected his performance against the Bengals the following week. You don't see Big Ben act that way following a loss, as he is one of the best at shaking off a loss or a bad game and bouncing back the following week. I remember after his first career loss as a starter in the 2004 AFC Championship Game to the Patriots, he put his arm around Jerome Bettis (who was contemplating retirement after that game) and basically said "Don't worry, I'm going to get you that Super Bowl ring next season." Long story short: Bettis returned for his 13th and final NFL season and played his final game in his hometown of Detroit and was part of the Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh Steelers, led by QB Ben Roethlisberger. Seeing Ben sulk off the field the way he did following the Cowboys game is far out of the ordinary for him, and at that moment I just knew that he wasn't going to lead his team into the playoffs the following week. Of course, the Steelers came close to winning twice late in the game, but a missed field goal and another Big Ben late-game interception sealed their season and gave the Bengals the final playoff spot. Hopefully he will return at 100% next season both physically and mentally, because he has proven to be an elite quarterback when he's on top of his game, which he wasn't for the last three weeks, and as a result the Steelers have missed the playoffs. 1721. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.28.2012 - 7:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am hoping that CJS is wrong about this upcoming NASCAR season and we don't have to endure the sleep educing hell that we had to deal with last season. But I know deep down that he is right and when he is correct about these things it is usually a bad sign of things to come. 1722. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.28.2012 - 8:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe, this car will be a work in progress. I wouldn't expect good racing at Vegas and Texas. Hopefully by the May Charlotte races the rules will be fine tuned enough we can have two weeks of good racing instead of the two coma inducing races we had to endure this year. 1723. cjs3872 posted: 12.28.2012 - 10:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, this season for the Steelers has quite a bit in common with 2009, the last time they failed to make the playoffs, most notably, they lost to teams they had no business losing to. As was the case then, they lost to Cleveland and Oakland (don't you know that Carson Palmer feels good about helping to ruin a Steelers season after what they did to him in 2005-'06). And of course, despite what the score indicated, they also got blown out at home by a San Diego team that had lost seven of eight entering that game. I thought entering the season that the Steelers had one more run left in them, but I was wrong, because I think the Steelers are through as a championship contender, at least the Steelers as they're comprised, because I think the Bengals are taking over that division next year. And DSFF, as I explained to Benjamin via personal comment on my YouTube page, the reason I think that the racing is going to be as bad, if not worse than last year has to do with the speeds, because if NASCAR doesn't do anything, the speeds are going to escalate, possibly to the point where 200 MPH qualifying laps at 1.5 mile tracks may take place in 2014 because of better aerodynamics and lighter cars, which was a big reason for the escalation in speed that took place in 1987. And higher speeds means a decrease in the level of competition. That is something that Tom Sneva warned fans of back in the late 1970s and early '80s when IndyCar speeds went over 200 MPH. He constantly said that the speeds should be slowed down because higher speeds meant a decrease in the level of competition, and how right he was. That's something NASCAR has to start thinking about, because the higher speeds get, the lower the competition level becomes, because the cars will not be able to run close together at those speeds, something that has been proven. 1724. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 12.28.2012 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF said it would be interesting to find out how often the major winners went on to win the championship in the same year, so I have done some research. The Daytona 500 and championship has been won in the same year 5 times. Southern 500 + championship 11 times Coca Cola 600 + championship 6 times Talladega spring race + championship 6 times Brickyard 400 + championship 8 times AND some other races that don't have major status Martinsville autumn + championship 14 times Richmond autumn + championship 13 times 1725. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.28.2012 - 1:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To note, KFI, three of those Daytona 500s w/title are from Richard Petty. Also, I counted seven times. Lee Petty 1959; Richard Petty 1964, 1974, and 1979; Cale Yarborough 1977; Jeff Gordon 1997; and Jimmie Johnson 2006. 1726. cjs3872 posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Petty also won both the Daytona 500 and the championship in 1971, meaning that of the eight times that happened, Richard Petty did it four times. 1727. Sean posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And higher speeds means a decrease in the level of competition. That is something that Tom Sneva warned fans of back in the late 1970s and early '80s when IndyCar speeds went over 200 MPH. He constantly said that the speeds should be slowed down because higher speeds meant a decrease in the level of competition, and how right he was." I'd say that's usually but not always true. For sure when most tracks are repaved for instance the speeds are faster and the races are more boring. However, some of the most competitive races in Cup history (like the Talladega races of 1984) had faster speeds than any restrictor plate race has had, yet so many plate races have been pretty dull (much of the '90s for instance, although I usually preferred the dull plate races to the increasingly random demolition derbies we've seen in recent years). Also, in IndyCar racing, the fastest speeds were set in the CART Hanford device races at Michigan and Fontana from 1998-2001. The Hanford device was certainly a gimmick, but those races were some of the most competitive and best oval races ever held. The problem was the safety element, although I'm not sure how much of that was caused by the Hanford device. The Adrian Fernandez Michigan wreck in '98 that sent debris into the stands killing three fans? That was caused by the cars not having wheel tethers, which they do now. The Greg Moore Fontana crash in '99? That was a perfect storm thanks to Moore being allowed to race when he was injured (when he shouldn't have been), Fontana's decision to have infield grass instead of pavement, and a messy access road that sent him into the grass. It's hard to say the Hanford device by itself caused either of those incidents, and I think as gimmicky as it was, I kind of want to see that kind of racing back (and it happened in the fastest open-wheel racing ever held...) By contrast, most of the IRL Indy 500s were rather dull even after the return of the CART teams in comparison to races like 1993 and 1995 (or even 1996, despite how lousy the field was) which were very competitive despite much faster speeds. In general, I agree that faster speeds mean less competition, but there are certainly exceptions. Many could and would argue that both restrictor plates and the Hanford device were gimmicks. Ignoring competition pot-sweeteners and intentional attempts to reduce speeds, holding everything else constant, you're probably right. 1728. cjs3872 posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And so would Sneva be, Sean. 1729. Sean posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By contrast, most of the IRL Indy 500s were rather dull even after the return of the CART teams in comparison to races like 1993 and 1995 (or even 1996, despite how lousy the field was) which were very competitive despite much faster speeds." I will add that the last two Indy 500s were ABSOLUTELY the best since the split with nothing else coming close (that 2006 photo finish was in actuality pretty lame and the rest of that race was very dull). As hideous as most people say the DW12 cars look, I definitely liked the unprecedented drafting at Indy last year, reminiscent of the Hanford device races (which were almost always better than the Indy 500s of those years). I guess it shouldn't be surprising that four of the six drivers still active who competed in the CART Hanford device races (Franchitti, Dixon, Kanaan, and Servia) claimed the top four positions. Most of the more recent drivers didn't have much drafting experience. 1730. awesomegordonfan posted: 12.28.2012 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Agreed. Especially that last lap of 2011--who knew Hildebrandt would be in the lead in the final lap by a mile, and who knew he would run into the turn 4 wall to allow Weldon to pull the upset? 2012 was great too. The drafting was amazing, not quite like a race at Daytona or anything. 1731. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.28.2012 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I rarely pay much attention to open wheel, but the last two Indy 500s have been exceptional. 2011 was pure drama. You just knew JR had it won and were already thinking about what it would be like for such a young unknown to suddenly have his sports most cherished race (like Trevor Bayne a few months earlier) then "OH SHIT!!!". I was so heartbroken until I saw Dan's interview, then I felt good that he had won it, and I really feel good about that now. 1732. Paul posted: 12.29.2012 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I 100 percent echo DSFF's last post, especially the last sentence. On one hand I feel bad that J.R. Hildebrand didn't get his career-shining moment as a rookie in the Indianapolis 500, but on the other hand I am so glad that Dan Wheldon went on to win that race. Having lost his ride following the 2010 season, it was good to see Wheldon make a one-off start for Bryan Herta Autosport and go on to win his 2nd Indy 500, ironically beating his former ride in the last corner to do so, and then deliver such a heart-warming interview made it even better. And knowing what would tragically happen to him six months later, I'm so glad that he was able to win that race. 1733. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This one is a little off the beaten path. This is for the wrestling fans. After private YouTube conversations with Benjamin Lowe, I will rank the Top 15 reasons WCW bit the dust. More specifically, the reasons that, in the Fall of '97, they had the WWF all but buried, yet barely more than 2 years later, after a year of excruciating suffering, the WWF bought them out for peanuts. Disclaimer: this is all off the top of my head so some facts may be wrong. I welcome debate on these topics as well as other crucial factors I may have forgotten. I will also break it into 3 posts to avoid going over the limit. 15) David Arquette winning the title. You may remember David Arquette as the really annoying guy in those really crappy commercials and really crappy movies who somehow was married to Courtney Cox for a number of years (if Danica Patrick had curves, natural sex appeal, a personality, and were a few inches taller they would be dead ringers when Danica is dolled up). As if the previous months of Championship roulette didn't drive the point home enough, this was the official statement that "our title means nothing". 14) The Exodus. In a few months time, WCW mid card mainstays The Big Show, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and Eddie Geuerro jumped to the WWF and to the main event, each playing crucial roles at some point in the future for the WWF. Again, this was an official statement. This one read "yes, WCW is a sinking ship and we horribly underutilized potential fresh new talent while favoring old used up talent". See #3 and #4 for more details. 13) The One Warrior Nation/Halloween Havoc '98 debacle. Luckily we had weeks of horrible promos, vignettes, and segments that let us know this pay per view was gonna be a disaster (unlike #2 on my list) so most of us saved our money. But how the hell do you screw up the return of the 2nd most identifiable wrestler from the late 80s golden years (The Ultimate Warrior) and the inevitable rematch of the two most identifiable members of that era (Warrior and Hulk), the original being Hulk's only good WrestleMania match. Also, if I remember correctly, they had satellite issues for the main event of this one so many people missed their match. Good for them. 12) The underutilization of Ric Flair. This might seem contradictory to #14, #4, and #3, but if you are gonna use one of the old, past their prime wrestlers, why not Flair? Of course a lot of this was ego from Bischoff as Flair was the only one there he couldn't take credit for creating or luring away from WWF with Ted Turner's money. When they finally did give him a night all about him, his return to WCW and the 4 Horsemen after a lengthy and bitter absence (the way they built it and Arn Anderson introduced him was perfection) it resulted in one of WCW's final ratings wins. So of course they buried that whole angle quickly. Yes he was way past his prime of '81-'93 where he pretty much owned the wrestling industry and carried it, but there were still a ton of emotional attachment to Ric, and he is a rare breed anyways, somebody who was top notch both in the ring and on the mic. He needed to be used more. 11) Vince Russo. Seems kinda low, huh? Under his direction there was truly some of the most painful to watch TV I have ever seen. But WCW was dying a slow death by the time he showed up. It was a horse with a broken leg. Russo was simply the bullet in its head. His horrible shows saved us from a few extra years of garbage. If I were just making a list of people who make shitty programming, I assure you he would be #1. 1734. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 10) Jay Leno/Karl Malone. With ratings slipping badly, WCW decides to bring in recognizable names to draw attention rather than improve the wrestling. This included putting Jay Leno in a match (would the WWF relive this mistake a decade later with people like Floyd Mayweather and Donald Trump? Of course they would!) and having NBA star Karl Malone as DDP's partner. I guess they figured since they had success with Dennis Rodman in the NWO, Karl would work. The truth is Rodman had a legitimate edgy, unpredictable personality. The Mailman was boring in every conceivable way. He also was to MJ what Buddy Ryan was to Joe Cool. But that is another story. This led to some hard to watch matches and vignettes, the last thing they needed as WWF and Attitude was hitting on all cylinders. 9) Bret Hart. A multi faced reason. First off, his leaving WWF was just what The Federation needed as his character was pretty well worn out. He was always one dimensional as his mic skills and character left a lot to be desired. His last year in WWF, he was carried by Stone Cold, Taker, and HBK. Then he went to WCW and contributed nothing. Plus WCW did very little with him, but he didn't exactly take advantage of his few opportunities. He was just another washed up black hole in a company full of washed up black holes (see #3). 8) Oklahoma. I guess he could fall under the Vince Russo category, but this was so dispicable and classless it deserves its own spot. Making fun of Jim Ross and his Bell's Palsy which he got while grieving for his mother's death turned away what few fans they had left and galvanized an entire wrestling nation to be sure that WCW went under. 7) The Goldberg/Hogan Georgia Dome match. After WWF finally broke WCW's near two year stranglehold on the ratings war, WCW panicked and gave away a sudden Hogan vs Goldberg match in front of a frenzied Georgia Dome crowd. They won back the ratings for a week, and was surpringly well executed considering it was Hogan and Goldberg. But they threw away months of building of interest and attention they could have done (basically this was the exact opposite of #2). This short term gain was quickly nullified as this expedited the "gee, this Goldberg guy is getting really stale real quick" sentiment and took away the chance to suspend the already happening "this NWO stuff is really old now" sentiment. Which leads me to..... 6) NWOVERKILL. Special thanks to Ben Lowe for this term. When Hulk Hogan did the unthinkable and turned bad joining The Outsiders of Hall and Nash and forming the NWO, it may have been the most groundbreaking wrestling storyline ever. However, by 1998, half the damn company was in the NWO. They would come out so Hogan could do a promo, and all of them couldn't even fit in the damn ring. Needless to say it got old really quick. But they never could just kill it off. First they split them into the red group and white group, then they rejoined just in time for nobody to give a shit. Ironic, the one thing that put WCW on the map in a big way and nearly took out WWF ended up sinking themselves. 1735. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 5) The Fingerpoke of Doom. This one was pretty much the fatal blow for WCW. They would continue for another year, but it was over after this. Going back to the horse analogy, this was the broken leg. It never recovered. Hell, it has its own Wikipedia page. For the first time in almost a year, WCW had a storyline people were genuinely interested in and looked like they may have new life. The Goldberg undefeated storyline and the NWO storyline, each of which had long since worn itself out, looked like it would FINALLY pay off. Instead the pay off was horribly executed and wrestling fans officially lost their confidence in WCW to ever do anything worth watching. 4) No new stars. Now we are getting to the actual problems that held WCW back. Despite having young fresh talent that could have breathed new life into the WCW which was making its fans impatient, they kept them in the middle of the card before #14 happened. Only Goldberg was produced organically by WCW, and was shoved down everyone's throats and got old quick. Of course those mid carders, as mentioned in #14, would be main eventers in WWF and give them new life as some of their mainstays were getting old. Of course the most famous example of this is Steve Austin, somebody WCW never saw any potential in, who wound up being their worst nightmare. Of course this goes along with.... 3) Old stars refusing to fade away gracefully. The cousin of #6, only on a larger scale. WCW got on the map by attracting many of the old favorites from WWF (Hogan, Savage, DiBiase, Hall, Nash, Mean Gene, Piper..... this list goes on and on). This was a great idea as it brough lots of attention to WCW. But they never went away even though they were all past their prime and the fans were sick of seeing them. In one of WCW's worst sins, they gave quite a few of them creative control over their characters which they abused badly, most notably Hogan. So we got years and years of the same shit and guys just going through the motions. Meanwhile, WWF was giving new hungry guys a shot and they were entertaining the shit out of everyone. Who do you think fans tuned in to see? 2) Starrcade '97. The start of a downhill slide that never stopped and only got worse. The long term effects were not immediately felt, but they were damaging. It was set up beautifully. The NWO was still hot. They had destroyed everybody in their path except for one. Sting. He hadn't wrestled or spoken in two years, but did all sorts of cool mysterious stuff to keep the NWO on their toes. Two years were finally gonna be payed off as Sting and Hogan would FINALLY meet for the title. At WCW's biggest PPV no less. The anticipation was truly palpable. This was gonna be GOOD. Then the match started. I could talk all day about it, but I'll be to the point: it was a disaster in every way. It left the fans with a bad taste in their mouths. For many, it was the first time they would finally ask "I wonder what's going on over in WWF, I hear this Stone Cold guy is pretty cool". It was the start of a sudden and stunning reversal of fortune that is still hard to grasp. And I still want my money back from that pay per view. 1) The WWF was better. Once Bret Hart was unceremoniously booted, and HBK faded out with a screwed up back, it set the stage for the greatest era of wrestling ever. Folks like Stone Cold, The Rock, Foley, Kane, a reborn Taker, and a host of others were there to take the ball and run as WCW was self destructing. It didn't take fans long to decide who to watch. 1736. murb posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with you guys on the Wheldon thing. After his death, I'm glad he was able to win that one last race. Wheldon is one of those drivers who I like to go back and watch old footage of just to get some life inspiration. He was an underdog from the UK who struggled early in the States, and then got his break with Andretti and he capitalized on it. So it's always fun for me to go back and watch his races. I do the same thing with both Earnhardt and Zanardi. It's weird how certain sports figures can have an impact in your life, but those three guys definitely have in mine. 1737. murb posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, That's a great list DSFF!!!! As I mentioned previously, I was huge into pro wrestling as a little kid, and all those moments you mentioned brought back tons of memories. As a kid, I actually liked WCW a bit better than the WWF at the time. Obviously now as I look back, I have no idea why (probably because I was like 5). But yeah, it's pretty clear now that with Austin and The Rock's help, McMahon came out on top. I actually have both of Chris Jericho's books (which I highly recommend to any wrestling fan - great inside info along with his wild sense of humor), and the way he describes WCW sounds like he's describing prison or something. From what he says, it was basically just major politicking going on between the higher ups (basically all of the NWO people and Bischoff), and the harder working lower card wrestlers like him, Malenko, Benoit, and Guerrero were all invisible. He even tells this story about getting a FedEx from WCW that had nothing inside it. It just seems like it was a really bizarre company to be a part of. And obviously, all of the reasons you mentioned didn't help any. Anyway, both of Jericho's books are great if you've ever been a wrestling fan. I like the first one better, but they're both great. I haven't watched wrestling on a regular basis in probably about five years. I was starting to get uninterested in it around 2006. And then the whole Benoit thing happened in 2007, and I haven't really been interested in it at all since then. It's just really sad to see a lot of these guys that I grew up watching having these downward spirals in their lives. I've always thought that those people who say "it's fake, you know" are incredibly ignorant. Sure, it's pre-planned and choreographed. But it's pretty clear that the actual business itself has a huge impact on the guys involved, given most of their personal lives. After watching some of the documentaries and shoot interviews on the business, I definitely have major respect for the dudes that do it. It seems like an insane industry to be a part of. 1738. Biscuits In A Red Bull posted: 12.29.2012 - 5:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Using the 1990s F1 points system (that makes more sense without a chase), we'd have a different champion. The standings: 1 Johnson 107 2 Hamlin 94 3 Keselowski 74 4 Gordon 64 5 Stewart 64 6 Kyle Busch 64 7 Kenseth 60 8 Kahne 57 9 Bowyer 55 10 Biffle 54 11 Earnhardt Jr 46 12 Harvick 28 13 Truex Jr 26 14 Newman 24 15 Martin 19 16 Ambrose 14 17 Logano 13 18 Burton 9 19 Edwards 8 20 Allmendinger 6 21 Vickers 6 22 Menard 5 23 Kurt Busch 4 24 Almirola 4 25 Ragan 3 26 Hornish Jr 2 27 Smith 2 Changes: Johnson +2 Hamlin +4 Keselowski -2 Gordon +6 Stewart +4 Kyle Busch + 7 Kenseth +-0 Kahne -4 Bowyer -7 Biffle -5 Earnhardt Jr +1 Harvick -4 Truex Jr -2 Newman +-0 Martin +11 Ambrose +2 Logano +-0 Burton +1 Edwards -4 Allmendinger +12 Vickers +14 Menard -6 Kurt Busch +2 Almirola -4 Ragan +3 Hornish Jr +33 Smith -3 They are the only points scorers. As you can see, the entire thing has changes dramatically. Johnson wrapped up the title at Phoenix. Denny hamlin had to win 2 and have Johnson not score two 6ths or a 5th (2x 1pt or 1x 2pt) to take the title. Despite Johnson's accident, he only finished 2nd. 1739. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.29.2012 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You know what I think of Danica well its what Chris Jericho said of Stephanie McMahon during the Attitude era and I can say none of it here. 1740. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.29.2012 - 9:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, my parents were WCW/NWO people who stopped when WWF took over. We even had the N64 game where you could beat on Diamond Dallas Page's showgirl. Beat up on Rey Mysterio, Jr with a trophy randomly ripped out of the stands. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. 1741. David posted: 12.29.2012 - 11:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Salt Walther, one of the drivers who was injured in a crash during the tragic 1973 Indianapolis 500, has died. He was 65. 1742. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2012 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had those video games too! They were awesome. I had friends that didn't give a damn for wrestling that would come over and play those games until 4 in the morning. They were that good. 1743. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.29.2012 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, DSFF, but would you beat on Dallas Diamond Page's showgirl? That takes a real NASCAR fan to do. 1... 2!.... 3! Three-count fall! 1744. Paul posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's a great list, DSFF. To be fair to Karl Malone, he was highly liked by a lot of the WCW wrestlers and had a great attitude to the company, while Dennis Rodman was just the opposite and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Prior to the tag team match between DDP/Malone vs. Hogan/Rodman, Hogan was trying to teach Rodman how to do a wrist lock, one of the most standard holds in pro wrestling, and Rodman's attitude during this apparently got under Hogan's skin so much that Hogan snapped at him and told him to knock it off and pay attention. If you can make Hulk Hogan, a guy who is more concerned about making money than having a good match, yell at you when the match is guaranteed to make money based on who's involved, you know you're a f*** up. I read this book called "The Death of WCW", which was co-written by Bryan Alvarez of the Wrestling Observer, and it made the point that not one thing led to the demise of WCW, but rather a compilation of factors did. WCW had guys like Steve Austin, Triple H, and Undertaker on their roster in the early '90s and did nothing with them while those three were laying the foundation for the WWE later that decade, and yet WCW was still kicking Vince McMahon's ass in the ratings. But because they stayed with the same old guys for far too long, didn't make any new stars other than Goldberg, and made terrible booking decisions over and over again is why they lost a large amount of their fanbase. Throw in the high guaranteed contracts, huge egos, and lots of behind-the-scenes politicking, and it only added chaos and large amounts of money being wasted for an already sinking ship. I always thought that WCW had the better wrestling product that WWE, as the WWE always put more emphasis on the drama behind the match and storylines than on the actual match, which from the late '80s to the mid-'90s WCW had the better wrestling product. But once Vince Russo took over the booking, along with the big stars like Hogan, Nash, and Luger having guaranteed contracts and creative control that allowed them to pick and choose when they wanted to wrestle, WCW turned from a wrestling product into a sports entertainment product. But since WWE had already long established themselves as a sports entertainment product, WCW just looked second-rate compared to WWE as they were basically becoming a southern version of WWE from '99-'01. Worse yet, the censors from Turner's TV stations wouldn't allow some things such as language and forms of nudity shown on air, so while WWE was in the midst of the edgy Attitude Era, WCW was trying to do the same without the language or nudity. And needless to say, it failed miserably. WCW was a great wrestling company that had too many bad influences, huge egos, and chaos behind-the-scenes that ultimately led to its demise. The sad thing about it all is that it had all the ingredients to be the best company in the world for the long haul, with superstars like Hogan, Savage, and Nash; long-time veterans like Flair, Sting, and DDP; and a giant cast of talented guys that never got a chance like Raven, Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, and Malenko. In the end, it was just a giant waste of money, resources, and opportunity. What could have been the company that finally took wrestling away from the WWE's stranglehold just imploded upon itself, and in just three years went from being #1 to defunct. If anything positive came out of WCW during its "rise and fall" era ('96-'01), it's that it made Vince McMahon change the way he ran the WWE. It went from a cartoon wrestling atmosphere from the late '80s through the stale mid-'90s, to an edgy atmosphere that made wrestling cool again from '97-'05. Even though WWE lost to WCW in the ratings every week in '97, their product that year was tremendous because Vince changed the way he showed off his product, hiring Jim Cornette and Vince Russo to his creative team, and filtering through Russo's "creativity" and knowing which ideas would be great and which would suck (unlike WCW, who had no filter over Russo's ideas). And with guys like Austin, HBK, Undertaker, and Bret at the top of his roster, while building on future stars like The Rock, Mankind, and Triple H, the WWE built itself a great foundation for the future in '97. Then once he got rid of Bret and suddenly had a lot of spending money, he began to take away some of WCW's many underused talents like Big Show, Jericho, and the Radicalz, while also creating new talent like DX, Edge & Christian, the Hardy Boyz, Too Cool, APA, and others, and suddenly he took back his stranglehold of pro wrestling and took it to a new stratosphere. So I have to give WCW a backhanded "thank you" for helping change the way Vince ran WWE, and for about 8 years made it great "can't miss TV". So while WCW was wasting away its own resources and talent, WWE was growing its resources and talent and gave us fans a lot of entertainment along the way. 1745. Paul posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Justin Lofton will only run a partial Truck Series schedule next year due to a lack of funding. Instead, he will be competing full-time for his good friend Robby Gordon's new Stadium Super Truck Series, hoping that he can achieve success there and attract sponsorship for another full-time run in NASCAR. 1746. Paul posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those old wrestling games were awesome! I remember playing WWF No Mercy at my cousin's house back when I was 8 years old and falling in love with the game. In the last couple of years I've also bought some other vintage wrestling games like WWF Wrestlemania 2000 and WCW/nWo Revenge. Sure the graphics aren't the best (still great though), there aren't many (if any) voiceovers, and they are over a decade old, yet I would say those are the greatest wrestling games of all-time, although a couple of the early WWE Smackdown! games were great as well. Nothing brings back memories quite like playing vintage wrestling games like those three on the N64. I've had that thing for 13 years and it hasn't broken down once, while I've had 2 (maybe 3, I can't remember) PlayStation 3's break down while I had them. I think this alone disprove's any claim that modern technology is always better than past technology. 1747. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.29.2012 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, we still have our original N64 too! Some of those games were great! At least we have the same game, WCW/nWo Revenge. We got the rumble pack to make it more exciting. 1748. murb posted: 12.29.2012 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep. I would spend days on end playing those first two SmackDown games. I also played WWF Warzone quite a bit. I didn't get WCW/NWO Revenge until later (because I didn't get an N64 till like 2004 - I was a PS1 man as a youngster), but that one was also great. Overall though I think the WWF games were a lot better than the WCW games (I had WCW Thunder for PS1 and it was GROSS). Specifically in that 1997-2000 era. 1749. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2012 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As David said, Salt Walther (who's real name ironically was David), who gained infamy as a result of his crash the first time they tried to start the 1973 Indianapolis 500, died today at the age of 65. I've always felt that Walther got a bad rap for that accident, because what actually caused that accident to happen was Steve Krisiloff's car had a problem when the green flag came out. Krislioff's car was on the inside of the third row, as because he was so much slower, his car was a moving chicane. It was inevitable something bad was going to happen, and when the part of the field that Walther was in got to Krisiloff's car, they were FIVE ABREAST, and five abreast at Indy doesn't work. Walther was forced to the right by the car inside of him, which took him into Jerry Grant's car, which had no place to go because he was against the wall, and disaster ensued, with Walther's car destroyed and 11 others damaged, tohugh able to continue, mostly because of two more days of rain. Walther was able to continue with his rocky career, which also included four NASCAR starts, with a best of 12th in the Daytona 500 in 1976, the same year he was a career-best ninth at Indy (ahead of Bobby Unser and Lloyd Ruby, no less). But 1977 was a rocky year for him. First, there was the incident at the wind-blown Daytona 500 that year when his car got tangled up with Buddy Baker exiting turn two, starting a crash that eliminated him and Dave Marcis, while damaging Baker's car, though in Walther's defense, he wasn't the only one that had major trouble off turn two that day. Then there was went down at Indy when he and his father tried to buy their way into the field. Fortunately, those events were overshadowed by three great historic achievements at Indy that May, capped off by A.J. Foyt becoming Indy's first four-time winner. And of course, we all know what became of Walther following his permanant retirement in 1991, and Walther's story is one of the most saddest in racing history, not just because of what happened on that May day in 1973, but all the events that followed it, some of which were linked to the events of May 28, 1973. 1750. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2012 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official, not that most people here doubted it. Jerry Bonkowski may officially be the dumbest person covering NASCAR today. I just read on the Bleacher Report where he listed five legendary drivers who would struggle today. Those five drivers he listed were Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, Herb Thomas, Bill Elliott, and Ned Jarrett. As anyone here knows, I have Petty as the greatest NASCAR driver ever, Bobby Allison is #3 on my list, and Herb Thomas is considered by many to be among the top two or three drivers among those from NASCAR's first generation (I have him #2 on my list among those drivers), and in the top ten all-time, as well. And I believe Bill Elliott would be at least as good now because there are more speedways, where he thrived throughout his career. The only selection I might have any chance of agreeing with would be Ned Jarrett, but even that's a stretch. If you want to see what incompetent journalism looks like, read that article. 1751. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.29.2012 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That guy is a retard. Those guys had NO POWER STEERING and FULL MANUAL transmissions. No air conditioning. Bill Elliott won races within the last ten years, and there have been times he looked like he could still win. Look at this year's Coke Zero 400. I don't trust Bleacher Report anyway... all their writers are dumb idiots. Imagine a modern Richard Petty with Hendrick equipment? He'd literally have won every title from 2004 to present, and maybe 2003 as well. Same with Herb. Bobby was so talented for a driver who never was the number one factory car at any team. And Ned would, even with his lack of speedway wins, would every year sweep Phoenix, Loudon, Martinsville (I know he didn't win there in reality), Bristol, and Richmond race. Sorry, Jerry Butski, but the opposite is true. Put any driver bar Tony Stewart in the past, and they're the infamous drivers who do so bad they cause their teams to lose factory backing because today's drivers have no finesse and don't take care of their equipment. Stewart really drives a lot like (in my opinion) Buck Baker, who won a lot, but blew up a lot. 1752. packerfan4ver posted: 12.29.2012 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not shocked about a writer Bleacher Report making a stupid article. I am saying that because I read past articles from Bleacher report and some of theme the articles not well researched or the writer is clueless. I read on article NFL Quarterbacks on bleacher report and one writer claimed Dan Mario had scubs as wide Receivers including Mark Clayton and Mark Duper. The writer even admitted he called Clayton and Duper scrubs because he never heard of them. Clayton and Duper were great 1980's wide receivers. Bleacher Report hires bad writers and Jerry Bonkowski is one of them. Jerry is way off on Bill Elliott. Jerry ignored the real reason Bill Elliott didn't win a points race from 1995 to homestead of 2001. Bill was an owner/driver from 1995 to 2000 and the fact is owner/ drivers was the wrong way to go. Bill's talent actually would be a great fit in today's NASCAR. Bill's real weakness was at track that were less than a mile, but so was Kasey Khane. Herb Thomas was a real talented driver. He was one of the early masters of Darlington. Drivers in Herb's era had to race on dirt a lot in NASCAR because a lot of the tracks wasn't paved. That means drivers Herb had great car control besides no power steering and full manual transmissions. Bobby Allison would be great in any era. Richard Petty is the same thing. 1753. murb posted: 12.29.2012 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bleacher Report is stupid, for sure. I don't think they really care about motorsports at all. They basically take the BSPN route and treat it as a second rate sport. And to add insult to injury, they also have some pretty bigoted writers writing the motorsports columns who make the typical redneck jokes when it comes to Nascar. It's a shame. 1754. David posted: 12.29.2012 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's official, not that most people here doubted it. Jerry Bonkowski may officially be the dumbest person covering NASCAR today." Glad to see that someone shares my opinion. Bonkowski's book "101 Great NASCAR Debates" infuriated me so much, I now refuse to read anything written by him. Did you know he was once fired from Roush Fenway Racing? 1755. NicoRosbergFans posted: 12.29.2012 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Getting time to beat the @$$e$ of the Cowgirls just like we did the New York Giant-failure-s... all together now! RG3! RG3! RG3! RG3! 1756. cjs3872 posted: 12.29.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact, Packerfan4ver, I believe that at least Mark Clayton should be in the Hall of Fame, and you can make an argument for "Super" Duper to be in the Hall, as well. But I can't believe what Bonkowski wrote. Perhaps that's one reason ESPN fired him years ago (I didn't know he worked at Roush). All five of the drivers he mentioned won the Southern 500 at Darlington at least once, with Allison winning it four times (in four different makes of cars), and both Thomas and Elliott each winning it three times. As I said, I think Elliott would be as good, if not better now because there are more speedway races now than there were in his prime, plus he won at driver's tracks such as Darlington, Rockingham, and Pocono a total of 14 times. I think we all forget how good Bill Elliott really was. He was just unfortunate to have his prime at the same time that Dale Earnhardt, Sr. had his, and as I said in my 11-20 blog post, if not for his choice to become an owner-driver, his victory total would probably be in the 60s, which would put him ahead of Jimmie Johnson on the all-time victory list. And he didn't crash very often, unless it was caused by someone else. I also think it's somewhat ironic that both Bill Elliott and Terry Labonte both scored their final victories at the very track where their Cup careers started. Elliott's final win came at Rockingham in 2003, and he made his debut there in 1976, and Labonte's final win came at Darlington, also in 2003, and he made his first start there in 1978, and even got his first win here in 1980. In fact, when Labone won the final Labor Day Southern 500, Elliott said that if he couldn't win that day, that he wanted to see Labonte win that race because, more than any other drivers in the field, they understod the Labor Day tradition at Darlington. Interestingly, when David Pearson won the Southern 500 in 1979, Elliott finished second and Labonte was third, and both Elliott and Labonte raced at least once on the Cup circuit last year, 33 years later. 1757. 18fan posted: 12.29.2012 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, the Bleacher Report NASCAR articles are a joke. No joke, there was an article about the fact that within 3-5 years Danica will be a chase contender. And their writers seem to be universally convinced that Logano will have a great year. 1758. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.29.2012 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is just a case of the ignorant "what we are seeing today is the best there has ever been" syndrome that runs rampant in the media. To them, what is happening now has to be the peak of the profession, otherwise they are just writing about something that won't be remembered (for the most part, these last 10 or so years will be lost in NASCAR history). You see it in other sports too. Like in basketball with all the "Kobe/LeBron may be better than Jordan was". To the media, they can't just say the truth, cause they want to be front and center for the greatest era, so they try to convince everyone that the here and now is the best when it clearly isn't. The fact is if you dropped the 1988 Rusty Wallace into 2006 in top dollar equipment, he would have at least 5 championships by now. And Rusty doesn't even make my Top 10 list (although he is closer than a lot of people give him credit for). Give these guys phantom cautions, double file restarts, wave arounds, IROC cars, and the cha$e, and forget about it. Herb Thomas did everything he had to do in his era and he did it better than anyone (if I were to ever redo my ranking, I would swap him and Lee Petty). What do they think, he would go to a mile and a half paved cookie cutter and try to drive it like a half mile dirt track? Bobby Allison won his first races in 1966 in a souped up stock Chevelle. He won in the big original Chargers, the Dodge Daytonas, the fastback Ford Torinos, those gigantic Chevys of the 70s, a freaking AMC MATADOR (!!!) for goodness sake, the gigantic Fords of the 70s, the evil handling downsized GM cars of the early 80s, the slightly less evil fast backed GM cars, and the first of the AeroWar cars, the new Buick of '88 for his final win in the Daytona 500. He is NOTHING if not versatile. And in today's era where the driver gets whatever he wants, Bobby wouldn't have to butt heads as much, meaning somebody like a Waddell Wilson who fought him every step of the way would quickly be shitcanned, so Bobby would do BETTER today. Bill Elliott's greatest successes came on the big wide open tracks and pretty much any track a mile or more. 30 of the 36 (83%) races on today's schedule fit that category. Am I missing something? The short tracks, which compiled 8 of the 29 races (28%) in his prime are what cost him the title in '85, '92, and would have cost him the title in '87 if Dale hadn't spent the first 22 races driving OUT OF HIS FREAKING MIND (let's say Dale swapped his '86 and '87 seasons, Bill would have given him a bit of a run in '87, but the shorts would have sunk him). Another one who would be better today. BTW, have we ever figured out what was up with the 1 mile barrier and Awesome Bill? He has sparkling records at 1 milers Rockingham and Dover, won the second race at Phoenix, and was truly Awesome at the 1.3 mile Darlington which requires short track finesse in its tight one groove corners, but only two career wins at tracks less than 1 mile. And how the HELL does he get Richard would struggle? He won EVERYWHERE in his career. Half mile dirt tracks, quarter mile paved tracks, flat half mile tracks (the Fairground Richmond track and I think he may have won a few races at Martinsville, but I'm not sure), high banked half mile tracks (Bristol, Nashville, Asheville-Weaverville), 5/8 mile tracks (Wilkesboro), 1 milers (I think 98 of his 200 wins came at Rockingham), the 2 mile Michigan track, and oh yeah, that 2.5 miler in Daytona was the sight of a few Richard Petty wins. 1759. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You guys ready for some "Holy Shit Batman!" stats? Here is the breakdown of The King's wins by track type (track lengths are approximate e.g. Dega is under the 2.5 mile category despite being 2.66, also tracks are paved unless otherwise stated): 0.4 mile dirt: 4 1/2 mile dirt: 23 0.9 mile dirt: 3 1/4 mile: 9 1/3 mile: 4 0.4 mile: 10 1/2 mile flat: 45 (!!!) 5/8 mile: 16 1 mile: 19 1.3 mile: 3 1.5 mile: 13 2 mile: 7 2.5 mile: 14 Road Course: 6 If that is not the model of versatility, I don't know what is! And the only thing I differentiated was dirt and asphalt. Those half mile asphalt wins ranged from the 36 degrees at Bristol to the zero degrees of the old Richmond Fairgrounds. Those 1 mile wins ranged from the banked canyons of Dover to the flat as can be Trenton. The 2.5 mile wins include 10 at Daytona and 2 at Pocono, two totally different tracks. Also, I just added up my list, and only came up with 176 wins, so I missed some! But I feel as though I have made my point. 1760. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.30.2012 - 5:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would recommend WWE '13, especially for its Attitude Era features. Another advantage the WWF had over WCW was its use of celebrities. The Mike Tyson/Austin/HBK Wrestlemania 14 angle was orchestrated much better than the Rodman/Malone/Jay Leno celebrity angles in WCW. Heck even Lawrence Taylor and Bam Bam Bigelow's match at Wretlemania 11 was slightly better even in the WWF transitional mid-90s. There is a new documentary on the NWO called "NWO Revolution" playing on Netflix for those who have it. Basically, it recounts the creative genius behind the stable and the "too many cooks in the kitchen" transformation in 1998 which led to the downfall of the NWO. Personally, I watched the WWF from around 1991 through 1995 (early 1998-2000) and WCW between 1994 and 2000. The moment the tv remote settled on Raw in the Monday Night Wars was around the 1998 Royal Rumble with occasional Nitro viewings, but the WCW product went downhill around an 8 month period from November 1997 through June 1998. The Vince/Austin feud sealed the deal in favor of the WWF for me. 1761. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, if that's not proof that Richard isn't one of the greatest races ever, than nothing can. It's also proof he'd be beating the tar out of everyone who's active right now. 1762. Anonymous posted: 12.30.2012 - 7:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) At the end of Danica's career her only accomplishment will be how many t shirts she sold, as far as any numbers go. 1763. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 9:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ If you're going to make a wisecrack as Pulitzer-worthy as that, please use your name so that I may laud you accordingly. 11 hours until Cowgirl whooping time. 1764. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does Joe Buck hate the Vikings so much? His commentary, which is always boring as shit to begin with, has been absolutely disgusting. 1765. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you haven't noticed, DSFF, Troy Aikman, Tony Siragusa, Joe Buck, and Phil Simms all announce will an obvious hatred toward all teams and players that aren't media darlings. It's just really noticeable tonight. 1766. 18fan posted: 12.30.2012 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't like Joe Buck but I will take him any day over the Jim Nantz/Phil Simms combo. 1767. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Redskins fan, I can't stand Tony Siragusa. He has always made irrational tirades against the Redskins every time they play an NFC East rival... Fat ugly Goose! 1768. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Vikings are in the playoffs. If AD doesn't win the 2012 NFL MVP, I will go on a 3 state gorilla press slamming spree. 1769. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Make it 7 DSFF. Colorado and the six New England states because you know those QB/satan-worshipping (Although I am a big RG3 fan, was when he was in college, I love running backs first, then defense, particular sacks and violent tackles) media members will vote either Peyton Manning or Tom Brady the MVP. 1770. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony just threw a Romo. 1771. cjs3872 posted: 12.30.2012 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some of the commentating kind of has you longing for the days of Pat Summerall and John Madden (or Tom Brookshier), Dick Enberg and Merlin Olsen, Don Criqui and Bob Trumpy (or John Brodie), and of course, Frank Gifford, Howard Cosell, and Don Meredith on Monday Night Football. Al Michaels, Gifford, and Dan Dierdorf weren't bad either. Curt Gowdy and Al DeRogatis weren't bad either on NBC in the late 60 and early-to-mid 70s. Just like some of the racing commentating has you longing for the days of Jim McKay, Keith Jackson, Ken Squier, Bill Flemming, and even Jim Lampley, with the likes of Jackie Stewart, David Hobbs, Sam Posey, Ned Jarrett, Neil Bonnett, Benny Parsons, and even Bobby Unser doing analysis. 1772. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeesh, this game is ugly. The Skins can't seem to get into gear and their rock solid kicker missed one, but Tony just threw another Romo. 1773. Paul posted: 12.30.2012 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SKOAL VIKINGS!!! To hell with all the haters who said we would finish 3-13 once again and that NFC North would be a 3-way battle between Da Bears, Pack, and Lions. And kudos to that comedian on Fox for being the only TV personality that picked us to win today, which doesn't surprise me since both Fox and BSPN love the Packers, and the likes of Jaws and Benedict Carter have always picked against the Vikes on the BSPN panel. Also, it appears that the 12th overall pick of the 2011 draft Christian Ponder now has more playoff appearances than that year's #1 overall pick Scam Newton, so this should end all of that "Ponder wasn't deserving of being drafted so high" crap since he has outperformed the media diva/darling that was drafted before him. I hope that crow tastes good, because they've eaten a lot of it this year. As far as Joe "I wish Aaron Rodgers would stick his hands under my ass when I bend over" Buck goes, he has lost long all credibility and respect from us Vikings fans, so what he did today from the booth doesn't surprise me (although I am glad I'm not the only one here who feels that way). If not for A.D.'s tremendous MVP season, he probably would have talked about the Packers and Aaron Rodgers and Clay Matthews and Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson and the Packer legacy the entire game, so thank God for A.D. Luckily for us, we get to play in Green Bay next week, so we'll probably get stuck with his worthless ass again. Oh boy... And even though A.D. didn't break Dickerson's record, he still had an outstanding season rushing the ball and came up 9 yards short. Had he had as many carries as Dickerson did in '84, he would have blown his record away because he had fewer carries and a higher rushing average, which makes what Peterson did this year more impressive than what Dickerson did in my book. If he isn't named MVP in writing, he will still be MVP to me. Manning and Brady are nothing more than paper MVPs in my view. And for the record, I was more concerned with the Vikings winning and making the playoffs than I was in A.D. breaking Dickerson's rushing record. Dickerson may have the record, but that's all he has because his teams were never a threat to win a championship, and I'd rather win a championship than hold some record any day, which is why I think of Troy Aikman much more highly than I do Dan Marino. With Christian Ponder suddenly becoming a very good quarterback the past two weeks since getting married, the Vikings' hopes of winning in the playoffs suddenly just got a little larger, although next week will be tough having to play on (Chris Berman's voice) "The Frozen Tundra at Lambeau Field." 1774. 18fan posted: 12.30.2012 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Redskins have let Romo off the hook for his two terrible picks. 1775. Paul posted: 12.30.2012 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Christian Ponder reminds me of Eli Manning. When his confidence is down he plays poorly, but when his confidence is up he plays great, and lately his confidence has been as good as it's ever been. Plus, he seems to come through in big-time games, and just like Eli has done in the playoffs, Ponder has done in the last two weeks against superior teams to lead the Vikings into the playoffs one year removed from their worst season since 1984 (ironically the season that Dickerson set the single-season rushing record). I don't know if Ponder is capable of doing what Eli has done, but his ability to play great in big-time games gives me great optimism for the future. Also, Aaron Rodgers was acting like a complete diva in the game today, yelling at officials and having a few temper tantrums at various points of the game. I think Jay Cutler gets a bad rap for being a diva/jerk, because I would rate Brady, Scam, and Rodgers above him on that scale. I think Rodgers has let his success get to his head, because he has gone from being a humble starting quarterback who emerged from Brett Favre's shadow, to an elite quarterback with a questionable attitude in just three years. Add-in the fact that he's from California and was drafted much later than he should have been by a cold weather team, and he's practically a carbon-copy of Tom Brady. 1776. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Romo, ladies and gentleman, Tony Romo. 1777. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There isn't much greater pleasure to be found than this... 1778. 18fan posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Romo threw that last pick, I wasn't surprised at all. There are certain things that happen regularly and don't even surprise you, and Tony Romo throwing interceptions in crucial moments is one of them. 1779. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hot damn! Seahawk roast, this Sunday. Be there! 1780. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Paul and Nico on your team's big victories. I am happy for you guys. Debate: Who is shakier in the clutch, Kyle Busch or Tony Romo? 1781. Paul posted: 12.30.2012 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Debate: Who is shakier in the clutch, Kyle Busch or Tony Romo?" I would say Romo because of his failure to make the playoffs this year and '08, as well as his epic botched hold in '06, inability to reach the Super Bowl with the best NFC team in '07 (and get beat by the clutch-Manning brother in the process), and getting blown out by a Brett Favre-led Vikings team in '09. Plus, he's now failed to make the playoffs three years in a row, something that Kyle Busch has never done consecutively. But then again, Kyle does get the nod for greatest meltdown from the fall Richmond race. So I would say Romo is the most shakiest in the clutch in terms of quantity, but Kyle is the most shakiest in terms of quality. 1782. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.31.2012 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are going to be some fascinating match ups next weekend. Matt Schaub is going to feel the pain of Geno Atkins and the boys in orange and black... Cincinnati will finally win a damn playoff game if the D comes through big. 1783. Jarrett88fan posted: 12.31.2012 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Romo has "The Shakiest Gun in the West" no offense to the Don Knotts character. 1784. Paul posted: 12.31.2012 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because the Giants decided not to show up the past month until today, I'm glad that the Redskins were able to make the playoffs and win their first division title since '99. It's not that I hate the Cowboys (even though some of my posts may suggest that), but knowing how much coverage would be on that team and Jerry Jones during the playoffs had they qualified, that's one story that I'm glad I would have to hear about for the next month. And as a consolation prize DSFF, your Panthers beat the bounty-less Saints today and finish 2nd in the division as a result. That probably doesn't mean much, but it's better than nothing. Speaking of the Saints, what does it say about their team that they fail to make the playoffs with their coach suspended for the season, yet the Colts have an interim coach for most of the season after Chuck Pagano was diagnosed with leukemia earlier this year and go from being the worst team in the league to a playoff team? To me that suggests that their players aren't all that valuable (which in terms of their defense is true), and that they are easily replaceable. It's one thing if a star player gets hurt and they struggle because that affects their overall performance. But because it's a coach that they lost, I think their performance this year was more because of their mentality than anything else. I think they beat themselves before the season even started, and their record shows it. Also, I'm very happy for the Colts and glad to see that Pagano was able to lead them to a win over the Texans today in his first game back. I never realized how much I liked the Colts until Peyton was finally out of the picture, but I'm pulling for them now. If they beat the Ravens and the Bengals beat the Texans next week, we'll get to see them take on the Broncos and cause massive media orgies as Peyton takes on his former team. And shame on the Texans for their late season collapse. There's no reason why they shouldn't have had home-field advantage, let alone have to play in the 1st round of the playoffs. Now that they have to play the red-hot Bengals in the 1st round for the second year in a row, I see them being one-and-done in the playoffs, and that would be a real shame. One last thing: Did the Cowboys' final drive remind anyone else of the Eagles in Super Bowl XXIX? I know they were down by 10 points with less than two minutes to go, but it would have been nice to see a little sense of urgency and clock management from them to end their season. That's not a good way to go into the offseason, especially for an owner/GM that doesn't forgive mistakes very easily. 1785. DaleSrFanForever posted: 12.31.2012 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about Kyle is the way he just folds up mentally the second things start to go astray in a big situation. That is why I have given him the "Agree To Lose" motto. He has freakish talent like Jeff Gordon. He has had top dollar rides like Jeff Gordon. And he got his start at an outrageously young age like Jeff Gordon (Kyle actually started 2 years younger). But he lacks any heart. That is why I love comparing the '97 Southern 500 to the 2011 Atlanta race, and the fact both were won by Jeff. And this year's Richmond race placed them head to head and drove home the point in the clearest fashion possible: Jeff has the heart of a champion, Kyle has a pump in his chest which circulates blood and that is pretty much all it does. 1786. Paul posted: 12.31.2012 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah this Romo/Kyle clutch debate is very close, and one can make a legitimate argument about either one of them. I think I'm going to change my answer because while Romo is very shaky in the clutch, he at least has the mindset to not throw in the towel when the going gets tough, which Kyle has a history of doing. When Romo chokes in a big-time game such as the one tonight, at least it wasn't for a lack of trying. When Kyle chokes in a big-time race, it's pretty much a given that his inability to deal with pressure resulted in his choking. Then again, Kyle has a Southern 500 win and Romo has a playoff win, so it's not like they are incapable of winning the big games/races, but their inability to do so consistently is baffling. "Jeff has the heart of a champion, Kyle has a pump in his chest which circulates blood and that is pretty much all it does." That pretty much sums up the difference between not only Jeff and Kyle, but the true champions and the pretenders. 1787. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.31.2012 - 6:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know it's probably going to go to I-throw-25648-passes-and-only-complete-twenty-of-them-a-week-and-therefore-get-inflated-numbers-Andrew Luck, but haven't Alfred Morris and Russell Wilson make more than great cases for why one of them should be rookie of the year? I think these playoffs will be telling because Luck was always dependable to choke in college. 1788. Benjamin Lowe posted: 12.31.2012 - 7:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How the hell does Romo still have a job. 1789. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.31.2012 - 9:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Cause it's the Dallas Cowboys. Funny answer: He can get away with sucking because no one will diss him because they can't diss the almighty Dallas. Serious answer: Because Jerry Jones couldn't run that team properly if his life counted on it. 1790. NicoRosbergFan posted: 12.31.2012 - 10:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BREAKING NEWS: Jets announce intentions to intentionally lose next year; fire GM Mike Tannenbaum, but retain Rex Ryan. Fireman Ed expected to challenge Ryan to a duel. This is all in jest folks 1791. 18fan posted: 12.31.2012 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess you didn't watch Luck's potential game-winning drive in the Fiesta Bowl last year until the coaches started running the ball and then the kicker missed a field goal. He destroyed Virginia Tech the previous year in a BCS bowl. I know everybody here is huge on mental toughness and Luck showed that after he threw a potential game-losing pick-six against USC at the Coliseum (which is not an easy place to play, especially when the game is essentially USC's Super Bowl). He engineered a great game-tying drive to send the game into overtime when they would eventually win the game. Luck did have a couple bad games against Oregon, but except for the loss against Oklahoma State in the Fiesta Bowl that was the fault of the coach and the kicker who missed three field goals, Luck lost 2 games in 2 years, both against Oregon. 1792. Paul posted: 12.31.2012 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So the Bears fire Lovie Smith for barely missing the playoffs, but the Jets retain Rex Ryan whose ego is largely responsible for them never contending for a playoff spot. Brilliant. And to add to his already huge ego and stubbornness, he said after his team's blowout loss to the Bills (who fired their head coach Chan Gailey) yesterday "If I thought Tebow could help us win, I would have played him." Yeah, because what he did winning 7 of his first 8 starts in 2011 and a playoff game against the defending AFC champion Pittsburgh Steelers clearly shows his ineptness as a quarterback, while Sanchez quarterbacked for all but one game in their 6-10 season and lost his confidence very early in the season and was obviously the right man for the job in week 17. Oh spare me your continuous BS rhetoric, Rex. Just say you never wanted Tebow and that you can't stand not being the center of attention, so you played Sanchez because you knew that win or loss, it would all be about you in the end. Keeping Rex Ryan for another season, provided they don't fire him in the coming days or weeks, is a terrible move by the Jets as he has no idea how to actually be a head coach and lead his team, let alone make a good quarterback decision. They fired their GM, and both Sanchez and Tebow won't be back, so why not just clear house and fire the head coach too, since he caused more problems for the Jets than anybody else this season. 1793. cjs3872 posted: 12.31.2012 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was my point all along, Paul. Tim Tebow might have given the Jets a better chance to succeed, but Rex Ryan's ego wouldn't allow him to put in Tebow because had Tebow led them to success, he and not Rex Ryan would have gotten the spotight, and Rex would not allow something like that to happen. Besides, I'm not even sure Joe Montana would have been very successful with the talent around the Jets QBs this season. But then again, that must run in the family, because his father Buddy Ryan was the same way. In fact, he and Mike Ditka still don't see eye-to-eye because of him getting carried off the field, along with Ditka in Super Bowl XX, and I don't think Buddy Ryan ever saw Ditka as being the true head coach of those Bear teams from 1982-'85, when both Ditka and Ryan were there, because he always considered himself at least an equal to Ditka. And of course, there was that Monday Night in Miami in 1985, when Ditka recommended Ryan use one kind of defense, while Ryan was stubborn as always and chose his defense instead, and Dan Marino torched it to the tune of 31 first half points. And there were times in that 1985 season for the Bears that the offense had to bail out the defense. 1794. David posted: 12.31.2012 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone for a good laugh? I received my issue of "NASCAR Illustrated" today, and this one is all about the best and worst of 2012. During one of their regular features, "Questions & Quotes", they interviewed various drivers about winning. One of the drivers was Joey Logano, a.k.a. "The Racing-Reference Sweetheart". This was one of the questions asked: (DISCLAIMER: I do not assume responsibilty and will not be held liable if anyone who reads the following is put at a health risk and/or suffers personal injuries while reading. Continue reading at your own discretion) "NASCAR Illustrated: Have you ever given a trophy away or dedicated a win to someone? Joey Logano: 'I've kept every trophy I've ever won. I want to show my grandkids that I used to be a bada**...'" (The next sound you will hear will be DaleSrFanForever, Paul, murb, RCRandPenskeGuy, Eric, and pretty much everyone else on this comment board being seized with uncontrollable fits of laughter and/or vomiting) 1795. Mr X posted: 12.31.2012 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel sorry for Joey Logano's grandkids. 1796. murb posted: 12.31.2012 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, they're gonna have plenty of second tier minor league trophies to look at. Too bad they'll never be able to see a real life Sprint Cup Championship trophy at Grandpa's house. Unless of course he somehow convinces Brad to donate his 2012 one (or one of his possible future ones) to him. The sad thing is I can actually see Joey doing that, lol. What a scumbag. Obviously, I've given my thoughts on him many times on here, but he just continues to show who he is as a person. Silver spooner, bully towards the underfunded NNS drivers, 2012 Invisible Man runner-up (behind Carl), career long wingman at best, etc. And now, we can apparently add "selfish" to that list. 1797. Packerfan4ver posted: 12.31.2012 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The amount of Trophey's Joey has won at this point doesn't tell me he's what he thinks he is. What Joey claims he is something that A.J. Foyt and Dale Earnhardt Sr. is, but Joey isn't. If you look at picture in a dictionary what a bad... is really is Foyt and Dale Sr's pictures would be shown, not Joey's. Most of Joey's career wins is in the minor leagues. 2 career cup wins doesn't make a driver what Foyt and Earnhardt Sr. is. It is pretty sad and pathetic statement Joey made considering most of his wins since he became a cup driver came in the Nationwide series. Joey has been taking out drivers in the nationwide series that aren't cup regulars and the drivers he takes out are on underfunded teams. If Joey has any grandkids, they wouldn't think what Joey what he thinks he is. I think Joeys grandkids would be embarrassed of their grandfather instead because he think he's one of the bad... of Racing, when Joey actually is just a footnote at beast at the cup level. Joey is a person to me that was born with silver spoon in mouth, is a bully, and is one of the most over hyped drivers that ever went to the cup series. Joey is a mediocre cup driver to me that is a great Nationwide driver. He's going to be a cup driver that might win 5 to 10 wins in his cup career and that's it. That means he is not going to remembered as a great cup driver. 1798. David posted: 12.31.2012 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Joey has any grandkids, they wouldn't think what Joey what he thinks he is." The key word here is "if". I feel sorry for any girl that would be foolish enough to marry him. 1799. 18fan posted: 12.31.2012 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR Illustrated also put the shoe incident at Montreal in the Worst Luck section along with Jeff Gordon's early season woes where everything went wrong and Kyle Busch's 3 consecutive engine failures. 1800. David posted: 01.01.2013 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Happy new year to everyone in the eastern time zone! 1801. David posted: 01.01.2013 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, that discussion fizzled quickly. 1802. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.01.2013 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, buon nuovo anno! Buon nuovo anno a tutte le persone in gli Stati Uniti e sul terra! 1803. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.01.2013 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Happy New Year to Everyone. 1804. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.01.2013 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Joey Logano" and "badass" go together like "Dale Earnhardt" and "underperforming his equipment", like "Joe Montana" and "Super Bowl loss", like "Kyle Busch" and "mental toughness", like "Tony Romo" and "clutch", like "Cam Newton" and "likeable", like "David Pearson" and "7th best driver all time". None of them fit. That is pathetic. Maybe he will convince his grandkids that the NWide Series was the premier Series, and that he won all those races in the equivalent of RCR's Winston Cup equipment from '84-'96. 1805. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.01.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, please quit saying RCR's equipment in that time frame was crap when it obviously wasn't. If they were that underpowered, no driver, regardless of how talented, would have been able to even get a top-10 in such a car on any of the intermediate or superspeedway tracks. But that's another show... Add to that "Rex Ryan" and "Brilliant coach" 1806. David posted: 01.01.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Abbia un buon anno anche, NicoRosbergFan. "Maybe he will convince his grandkids that the NWide Series was the premier Series, and that he won all those races in the equivalent of RCR's Winston Cup equipment from '84-'96." Actually, that doesn't sound that hard, considering the name of the second-tier series. He would have to keep them from finding out that it was sponsored by an insurance company of the same name, though. 1807. murb posted: 01.01.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah man, pandora's box has been opened. "Michael Waltrip" and "good commentator". "Brian France" and "high IQ". "James Finch" and "loyal car owner". "Jimmy Spencer" and "natural head of hair". 1808. cjs3872 posted: 01.01.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact NicoRosbergFan, the entire Richard Childress team from 1986-'95 was the best. The cars were great, the engines were reliable, and although they didn't have the most power, it was certainly good enough, the driver was the best out there, and the crew chiefs were top of the line, and their pit crew was just as good as their driver was. After all, they didn't get their name, "The Flying Aces", for nothing. In fact, their engines easily had the best combination of power and reliability in the sport at that time, and no other team's engines was even close. That was one of the keys to their success, that they could stay on the track as long as the did with such a hard charger at the wheel. The biggest reason they only finished out of the top three in points once in those ten years was that they outlasted their competitors, while outperforming them. Another key to their success was RCR's pit crew becoming the successor to the Wood Brothers as the best in the sport. If there's one thing that can be criticized about their success, it has to do with the fact that the champion always got the first pit selection, so it didn't matter whether Dale qualified first or last, he would always get the best pit stall in years where he was the reigning champion, something that was more important to them since Dale was such a poor qualifier. In fact, that's what won him the 1995 Brickyard 400. Mercifully, NASCAR finally did away with that practice in 1996, and pit stalls are selected the way they should be, strictly by qualifying. That rule probably gave the reigning champion, whoever he was, about a 500 point boost (I'm using the system they used then) because of the advantage it gave him, and for a driver like Dale, it was closer to 1000 because of how poor a qualifier he was. That's the only negative about RCR's success. And by the way, did anyone else notice RCR's dropoff occurred when they no longer had the automatic top pit choice? I even think that some of their success in 1995, especially that Brickyard 400 win, had to do with the pit selection rules, though their cars were still great. The fact remains that the only way Earnhardt could even get to the front was with those pit road rules. If he was racing today and was just as poor a qualifier, I don't think he'd be near as successful because he literally would have to earn his way through the pack, not be gift-wrapped it through that old pit road procedure that he was easily the biggest beneficiary of. He would still be great, make no mistake of that, but he would never have the back-to-front runs he had then without the hammer the NASCAR rules gave him and his team. 1809. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.01.2013 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love those murb. And RCR wasn't "crap", but they were far from the best. In the 80's, Ernie Elliott absolutely killed them on horsepower, I mean it wasn't even close. And don't get me started on Osterlund's motors. Also, they didn't have the resources like Hendrick and the experience of Junior Johnson, or an owner willing to go bankrupt like Beadle or Yates. And Penske had so many ties by the time they entered in 1991, also taking many of the key pieces from the Blue Max team (including the HOF driver), they were already ahead of RCR. You have seen Richard in action as an owner over the past 10 years or so. That is a 6 time champ? Please. What RCR had was Dale Earnhardt. 1810. David posted: 01.01.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If there's one thing that can be criticized about their success, it has to do with the fact that the champion always got the first pit selection, so it didn't matter whether Dale qualified first or last, he would always get the best pit stall in years where he was the reigning champion, something that was more important to them since Dale was such a poor qualifier." Well, you learn something new every day. I didn't know that. When did that rule start? 1811. Sean posted: 01.01.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, I've said several times that Jeff Gordon probably would have won the 1996 championship (all else the same) if he'd had the first pit stall every week. Granted, he should have regardless because NASCAR shouldn't reward mid-pack finishes so much more than DNFs, but that's a dead horse I've beaten over and over and over again... I think a 500-point advantage is overstating it quite a bit though... But it's not like the 1987 and 1994 championships were close. I don't think either of those would have been remotely affected by the "champion's pit" (they would have been much more likely to have been affected by Tim Richmond and Ernie Irvan being able to compete for full seasons). 1991? Maybe that's a good argument... 1812. Sean posted: 01.01.2013 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, I don't think RCR had the absolute best equipment. Junior Johnson was certainly better through 1986. Hendrick was probably better from 1986-1989. The #9 had more horsepower. I've got to say I think both Blue Max and Penske were worse (certainly more inconsistent) teams than Childress back then, although I would say Penske has usually been better than Childress since Earnhardt's death (with some noteworthy exceptions like much of the Kurt Busch era). I do find DSFF's low rating of RCR's equipment a little annoying because there were guys like Bonnett (RahMoc), Kulwicki, Bodine (latter-era Bud Moore), Gant (Needham/Leo Jackson), Irvan (Morgan-McClure except the plate tracks), EVEN Jarrett (Wood Brothers) winning in cars that were usually worse, and I find most of the non-champions there a bit more overshadowed than I would like (so I probably end up overrating them because most retired non-champions of the modern era except Martin, Davey, and Richmond are basically never mentioned anymore...) Of course I'm not saying any of those were as good as Earnhardt, but they did win in worse cars during Earnhardt's era. I don't think Osterlund was THAT bad in its time. Osterlund did buy the original '70s Penske operation and had a top five season with Dave Marcis (but it was definitely a mediocre 2008-era RCR kind of finish). Only a legend could have won a title for that team, but the team wasn't THAT shitty. As far as overachieving in weak equipment, I think Harry Gant wins. Gant won with some frequency for two different owners that basically did absolutely nothing else with any other driver. If we were calculating equipment strength, I'd say HE probably had the worst average equipment of any driver with 10+ wins, although it definitely wasn't too bad at Leo Jackson when Jackson had Andy Petree there (I think both Gant's main teams were worse than Osterlund's). I like Davey Allison, but why do people worship at the altar of him when Gant was doing much more impressive stuff at the EXACT SAME TIME? I think his equipment might have been even worse than Kulwicki's... 1813. Sean posted: 01.01.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eh, maybe I am overrating Gant. Andy Petree is certainly an all-time great crew chief (possibly top ten? Maybe that's pushing it) if he can win a race with Phil Parsons and put him into the top ten in points. A lot like Todd Parrott's rather similar one-off year with Elliott Sadler proved HIS legend... 1814. 18fan posted: 01.01.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon did have the number 1 pit stall in 1996. It was announced during the 1996 Bristol night race that the champion getting the number 1 pit stall would not be in place starting in 1997. 1815. murb posted: 01.01.2013 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Andy Petree is certainly an all-time great crew chief (possibly top ten? Maybe that's pushing it)" I wasn't really around when Andy was a crew chief (and even if I was, there's no way I remember - I was too young). However, I do remember him as a car owner, and I do think that his team was one of the most underrated teams of the late 90s/early 00s. Schrader had some decent years when he took over the 33 car from Robert Pressley (or Todd Bodine or whoever it was - I think they had a ton of drivers in that car in between Gant and Schrader). He had a chance to win a few races, and he finished top 15 in points in 1997, 1998, and 1999. And then of course Nemechek took over that car in 2000, and he also did pretty decent, including getting that win at The Rock in 2001. Bobby Hamilton did good in his two years in the 55 car too, getting that win at Talladega and almost getting another win there in the Fall 2001 race before all hell broke loose. Even KENNY WALLACE (who is a great career NNS/lower level driver, but is in no way a very good Cup driver) had his moments while driving for Andy. So yeah, I've always thought that Andy Petree was a pretty underrated owner. His team was sort of like how maybe EGR or RPM are now. Not the number one teams on their manufacturer, but good teams that can put up decent results and can occasionally contend for a win or good points finish. 1816. Paul posted: 01.02.2013 - 12:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kasey Kahne and Brad Sweet will be moving from Turner to JRM in the Nationwide Series next season, taking their Great Clips sponsorship with them. I think this pretty much ends any hope that Cole Whitt had of running a full schedule in 2013, as JRM has signed two drivers that do have sponsorship, and I don't see that team expanding to three full-time cars. While I don't think Cole is as talented as some people, most notably cjs and ESPN, I do think he's at least talented enough to run a full Nationwide schedule, and I hate seeing someone like him being pushed aside for Kahne and Sweet, one being a Cup driver and the other being a less-talented red head with similar racing backgrounds. 1817. Paul posted: 01.02.2013 - 1:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as Joey Logano goes, he really just doesn't matter. It seems like every week there's an article or two written about him on some racing website, but that doesn't surprise me because A.J. Allmendinger got a lot of coverage prior to the 2012 season when he had sponsorship from Shell/Pennzoil. Since Shell/Pennzoil is a NASCAR partner, they want their drivers to get coverage and have the resources to get them as such. Just like how Dinger was a frequent media story last year, Logano is this year and I think a lot of that has to do with Shell/Pennzoil's role in NASCAR and how much NASCAR controls their media. That being said, I do find it funny how Logano has always had a NASCAR partner as his primary sponsor, first with Home Depot at JGR (along with Dollar General last season) and now with Shell/Pennzoil at Penske. If I didn't know better, I'd say Tom Logano has pulled a few strings with those teams and sponsors to get Joey hooked up with them because they (meaning the sponsors) have enough power in NASCAR to get their drivers coverage in the media through NASCAR, and as a result Joey has always been talked about both on websites and on TV because of the team and sponsors he's been hooked up with in his career. Does he deserve the coverage he has received? No, because he has as many top 15 points finishes as past JGR scrubs J.J. Yeley and Jason Leffler, and less top 15 points finishes than past scrub Cup drivers Mike Skinner (who drove for post-1996 RCR) and Chad Little. But I'm not surprised he is in the news as much as he is because money talks, and his daddy has a lot of money. Notice that I didn't (until right now) respond to his "badass" comment because responding to that would be like trying to make Kevin Harvick a champion Cup driver: All you're doing is wasting energy and getting frustrated over something that will never happen. 1818. cjs3872 posted: 01.02.2013 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never said Childress had the most powerful engines. We all know that not to be true at any point. What I said was that in that 10-year period, that Childress' team had the best engines when you combine horsepower with reliability, and their engine builder was thus rewarded numerous times as the engine builder of the year for his efforts. Certainly others, specifically the Ford teams, made more horsepower, but their engines were nowhere near as reliable, and their teams were not as good. But what nobody else seems to grasp is that, along with having the best driver and the best cars from an overall point of view, they also had the best pit crew, which has always been a forgotten part of RCR's success in those years, but one almost as important than Dale himself. As I said, they were the clear successors to the Wood Brothers as the sport's best pit crew, bar none, and their pit crew won numerous races for Earnhardt, and I believe won at least one, maybe two championships for him (1990, '93). And the thing about Jeff Gordon having the champion's pick of pits in 1996 was that it wasn't nearly as important for him as it was for Dale, because Jeff has always been a great qualifier, so he would normally have had an early pick anyway, unlike Dale, who used that as a crutch more often than anyone deserved to, no matter how great he was. And no Sean, you are not overrating Gant. In fact, I have him ahead of guys like Neil Bonnett, Davey Allison, and Geoff Bodine on my list, and every one of them were contemporaries of Gant. And DSFF, I think you're underestimating Osterlund's motors. For instance, in the 1978 Daytona 500, Bobby Allison decided to draft Dave Marcis, who was sixth, the last five laps, rather than lead all the way through, and let's not forget that in 1980, that #2 car was the fastest car there other than that of Buddy Baker, as Dale Earnhardt won the Busch Clash, and came from 32nd to battle for the lead in 50 laps (he was forced to start 32nd due to an engine failure in his qualifying race), and would certainly have been pushing Baker if not for one of that team's infamous late-race strategy snafus, which cost him a year earlier, as well. So the horsepower of that #2 car was better than you give it credit for. They just got off when they made the body switch for 1981, and seemed more unprepared for it than any other team in the sport. 1819. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.02.2013 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale won the 1991 Winston Cup by 195 points, increasing his lead from 36 just seven races earlier despite hands down the worst finish to any of his championship seasons. 1991 Ladies and Gentlemen, 1991. And cjs, when the dominant story of the season is how far down you are on horsepower (as iit was in 1980, there is a Sports Illustrated article and everything) you are down on horsepower. As for RCR, yes they perfected the "whatever happens, no mechanical failures" way of work, but it was at the expense of power, like it is nowadays, that is why they always lag behind HMS, Roush, and JGR. The difference between now and then was they had Dale Earnhardt back then. 1820. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.02.2013 - 7:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Using the above logic, Dale should have been blowing engines at a rate that would have made Buddy Baker seem like "Lightfoot" because if Childress's engines were as underpowered as you claim, running any competitive pace would have caused immediate engine failure. If you want to use some kind of logic to show Dale is the greatest ever, than show how he capitalized on opportunity, getting that car to drive just a little deeper in the corner in the closing laps, or, as he more commonly did, masterfully snaking his way around wrecks and debris fields. 1821. cjs3872 posted: 01.02.2013 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, there's another thing I think we miss about Childress' decline in the last 15-18 years, and that is that he was slow to adapt to the new way of doing things. Being from the era of Junior Johnson, the Wood Brothers, Petty Enterprises, DiGard Racing, etc., he had always done things the same way they did, because they were the top teams when his team began to flourish, and that was good for a good many years. But when technology and aerodynamics began infiltrating the sport in the mid-90s, his team fell behind, and except for a few brief flashes, never has been able to catch up. Add to that the fact that he, along with the like of Robert Yates, and even Penske Racing preferred the single-car route when the multi-car teams began to become popular, but unlike Yates and Penske, did not have the technical expertise they had, and you see the result, as they got behind in 1996, and except for maybe 1999, 2000, and 2010, have never really been that good circuit-wide since, because Childress' organization never adapted, because Childress himself could never adapt to the changing times. There is, however, one thing that can be unabashedly said about Childress when Dale Earnhardt was around. Much like the Wood Brothers in their heyday, they never once ran or got caught running a cheated-up car, unlike some of those they were rivals with when they were winning races and championships. Junior Johnson, DiGard, and the Elliotts were all known cheaters in those years, and even Petty got caught with an oversized engine and illegal tires after his win at Charlotte in 1983, and I wouldn't have put it past him to have had a big engine when he won the Winston 500 at Talladega earlier that year, though to my knowledge, he wasn't caught with one that day. David Pearson even accused Petty of having a big engine (perhaps jokingly) at the 1976 Daytona 500 because of the move he made off the fourth turn on the last lap, but he made that move due more to the handling of his car than the engine. 1822. David posted: 01.02.2013 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "even Petty got caught with an oversized engine and illegal tires after his win at Charlotte in 1983" But Richard Petty himself did not know about it. That is why he left to join Mike Curb's startup team in 1984, because he didn't like being known as a cheater. "and you see the result, as they got behind in 1996, and except for maybe 1999, 2000, and 2010, have never really been that good circuit-wide since" This probably has nothing to do with it, but in Darrell Waltrip's book "Sundays Will Never Be The Same", he states that between the 1995 and 1996 seasons, seemingly overnight, the cost of fielding a NASCAR team tripled. Waltrip should know, too. as he owned one. 1823. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.02.2013 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nico, Dale blew engines at a rate that would make even Buddy Baker blush in '81, '82, '83, and '85. That 1985 season was key, Richard knew he couldn't build engines to stand up to Dale, and even advised him to find another team. But I think Dale was gunshy about big name owners after two extremely unproductive seasons with Bud Moore (the aforementioned '82 and '83 seasons). So starting in '86 he just went the bulletproof route, making engines that would not break. Their win total only increased from 4 to 5, but they ran off with the title. The key was the last 10 races of 1985. Sitting in 12th in points despite 3 wins at the time they had blown engines in half their races. But they didn't blow any in the last 10, and over that span Dale was only outpointed by the Waltrip/Johnson juggernaut, and not by much. And thus the RCR we all know and tolerate was born. But they is those motors would not break. At the expense of horsepower. RCR never could find a great balance. But they had Dale Earnhardt, so they still got 6 titles out of it in NASCAR's most stacked era. If that isn't the best driver ever, I will eat my hat. 1824. cjs3872 posted: 01.02.2013 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, there's another thing we're all forgetting. Dale also had to become a smarter driver. He learned that he could not afford to abuse his equipment and have the car live, so beginning in 1986, he finally discovered that he had to accept what the situation offered for most of the day, and then charge when it counted. A lot of those blown engines may have been because of Dale pushing them too hard. But then again, Mario Andretti never learned that lesson, which is why he only won two 500-mile IndyCar races his entire career, despite being, in my opinion, the greatest driver in racing history. And David, the reason that the proce of racing went up so sharply in 1996 is very simple one. Hendrick Motorsports became the first multi-car team to win the championship, unless you count Junior Johnson in 1985, when he ran two cars. That's why the price to be able to run competitively went up so sharply. As a result of that championship, the top teams knew they had to add teams, which in turn added substantially to the price of being able to race competitively. At the time of Hendrick's championship in 1995, he was running three cars and only Jack Roush, among the elite car owners, was running more than one car, and he would have five by 1998. Robert Yates added a second team to account for Ernie Irvan's return, which started late in 1995. Richard Childress went to a second team in 1997, and Roger Penske got into the multi-car team picture by purchasing old rival Carl Haas' stake in what was the #37 car of Jeremy Mayfield, changing the number to 12, which he ran with Bobby Allison, both in NASCAR in 1974, and at the 1973 Indianapolis 500. But Hendrick's first title in 1995 was what caused those exploding costs. 1825. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.02.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, DSFF, Bud Moore's engines were cheap $#!* that couldn't handle even Benny Parsons driving them. The only person who could have kept Bud Moore's cars in one piece is Herman Beam. 1826. murb posted: 01.02.2013 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kevin Conway is coming back this year. Apparently he said so on his Facebook page. Ugh. On the bright side, at least we get to make more boner-mobile jokes... 1827. 18fan posted: 01.02.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Steve Letarte: "That 16 up there is down a cylinder." Jeff Gordon: "Yeah and the 34 is down a driver." That is my favorite quote of all time about Conway. My other favorite is him getting lapped at Bristol in 12 laps. 1828. 18fan posted: 01.02.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was actually Jeff's spotter who said that, not Letarte. 1829. David posted: 01.02.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kevin Conway is coming back this year. Apparently he said so on his Facebook page. Ugh." That should make things interesting. It will be fun seeing who gets a lower PEER, him or Danica Patrick. 1830. cjs3872 posted: 01.02.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, the thing with Bud Moore's engines back then was the fact that, back in the 70s, most of the teams were running GM cars, with a few Dodges and a few Fords. In fact, 32 of the 42 cars that started the 1976 Daytona 500 were Chevrolets. And yet, Moore's cars had a better finishing record in the Daytona 500 from 1973-'80 than you might think, winning the 1978 race, finishing second twice (1973, '80), and third once (1977). But Moore was also of that Junior Johnson mindset that you run it as hard as it would go, and if it broke, so be it. Moore probably ran the most aggressive engine package of any team at that time, with the possible exception of Johnson. Add that to the fact that for several years in the mid-to-late 70s, his was the only good Ford team that ran the entire circuit, and as a result, he had nobody else to bounce ideas off of, or try to get better engine reliability. And if he had a bad batch of parts, which was commonplace at that time, even more than today, it would take longer to go through them. Certainly it was no excuse for what happened from 1981-'83, but the change in the car in 1981 may also have made it harder on engine, in general. It's a fact that the boxier car that was introduced in 1981 made it harder on engines, because the engines had to do more work, and that's a reason that some of the top teams were caught off-guard. Moore's team had problems, as did Rod Osterlund's, and even Junior Johnson had significant problems with his engines early that season, due to the heavier strain the lack of aerodynamics was forcing the engines to undergo, in comparison to the year or two before. Even the teams with better reliability records had more than their usual share of problems in 1981 for that reason. It just took some teams longer to figure it out that some of the others. But again, Moore was hurt by the fact that his was one of only two competitve Ford teams at that time, along with the Wood Brothers, and the only one running the full schedule. Truly, the reliability of the Ford engines didn't improve until Harry Melling's team, with Bill Elliott driving, became competitive with the front runners on a weekly basis, and that wasn't until 1983, when a new, much more superior aerodynamic car that would revoultionize the sport was brought out. 1831. murb posted: 01.02.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It will be fun seeing who gets a lower PEER, him or Danica Patrick." haha, Now THAT would be a race to see. I would have to give the edge to Danica though, based on a few reasons. 1. If he does have this ride, I seriously doubt it is for a full season. And if it is and he does run every race, there's no way that his team's (most likely) underfunded equipment will be able to compete with Hendrick/SHR equipment, no matter how bad Danica will be. 2. Knowing how Kevin Con(man)way is, he could just be BS-ing people about having a ride in the first place. 3. Robby Gordon will change his mind about not running Nascar next year, will enter every race, and will wreck Conway every week. Okay, the last one is just a joke. But as bad as Danica is, I'll give her the nod over Conway. 1832. Paul posted: 01.03.2013 - 3:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) James Buescher will run another full-time Truck schedule in 2013 for Turner Motorsports, attempting to become the first driver in series history to win back-to-back championships. I'm not entirely surprised that he's returning to the series based on the shape that Turner's team is in financially, having lost their Great Clips sponsorship, but I'm very surprised at the fact that Buescher reportedly turned down an offer to run a full Nationwide schedule for Turner next year to return to the Truck Series. He also has gained sponsorship from Rheem, which sponsored Cale Gale in 2012. Gale will join the team as a crew chief on Turner's 4th truck, a role that he has played in some of NASCAR's lower racing divisions, including serving as Ty Dillon's crew chief in the K&N Pro Series East in 2010. Having lost both full-time drivers from 2012, as well as most of their sponsorship packages, I think Eddie Sharp's team may be on its way out of the Truck Series in the next couple of years unless something good comes their way. That team invested a lot of money this past season having bought most of KHI's equipment, and after winning two races last in 2012 has to practically start all over now with Max Gresham as its only full-time driver. Also, Turner will be fielding three full-time trucks next year for Buescher, Jeb Burton, and Miguel Paludo (I'm not sure where Kyle Larson fits into their 2013 plans). This leads me to believe that Nelson Piquet, Jr. will be moving up to the Nationwide Series with Turner, as he showed a lot of potential last year when he didn't get caught up in an accident, and is the only Turner driver to win a Nationwide race that didn't involve a last-lap pass, which he did so at Road America. He attracted several additional sponsors throughout the course of last season, and by that standpoint, along with his great talent, it makes sense for Piquet to move up to Nationwide if that is in fact the case (I believe it is). This sort of reminds me of the situation that Roush was in back in 2000, when he had two great developing drivers in Greg Biffle and Kurt Busch finish 1-2 in Truck points that year. The veteran Biffle won the championship and moved up to the Busch Series, but it was the rookie Kurt who quickly got elevated straight to Cup despite finishing lower in points than his veteran teammate. This is very similar to the situation with Buescher and Piquet, in that the veteran who won the championship will race in a lower series than his less-experienced teammate (provided that my theory on Piquet running Nationwide next year is true). I'm not going to speculate what this would mean for Piquet if he does in fact get promoted to Nationwide, but it is worth noting that Jack Roush made the right decision sending Kurt straight to Cup and moving Biffle up to the Busch Series, seeing as how each of them have won a championship in those series', and Kurt has proven to be a better Cup driver than Biffle. Could this be the case between Buescher and Piquet, in that the teammate that finished lower in Truck Series points goes on to have more success in the higher-tiered series'? I'm leaning towards yes based on what I've seen so far from those two this past season. Piquet kind of reminds me of a young Jeff Gordon because although he has the tendency to wreck and make mistakes, he is a wheel-man with a "refuse to lose" type of mentality (I think his last-lap pass to win at Atlanta was one of, if not, the best driving acts across all three series in 2012). Buescher on the other hand reminds me almost of Terry Labonte because when he has the best car/truck, he's going to win the race (with him blowing a tire and hitting the wall at Iowa being the obvious exception), and when he doesn't have the best car/truck, he's going to get the best possible finish he can get without tearing up his equipment. 1833. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.03.2013 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Piquet made the last lap pass at Las Vegas. I can realistically see Piquet going down in history as the winningest non-American driver. I think Turner probably sees that Piquet needs more experience behind the wheel of a car, whereas Buescher has already shown himself to be a capable car driver on an oval. Piquet's oval experience is almost completely limited to the truck series. I can see Turner waiting a year or two and suddenly showing at Daytona in 2015 with Piquet and Buescher driving his cars. 1834. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2013 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or, could Turner's having James Buescher try to defend his truck Series title be an indication that things aren't as good there from a financial standpoint as everyone was made to believe. After all, if I'm not mistaken, their original intentions were to run both Buescher and Piquet in the Nationwide Series this year. Another indicator of this was the decision to have Danica Patrick run one of hos Nationwide cars for 10 races, another was Kasey Kahne leaving and taking his sponsor with him, and still another is the decision not to run Kyle Larson more than 10 races. Like I said before, as talented as Larson seems to be, he stands a good chance of getting railroaded because of signing a development deal with Ganassi, and maybe this is the first indication that he may actually be getting railroaded. Like I said, I expect him to fall into Tony Stewart's lap within two or three years, at most, because Ganassi has never come through on one of his development deals. I look for Larson to be with Tony Stewart's team by 2015 if he intends to stay in NASCAR. If he doesn't, Larson may never find NASCAR's top ranks. 1835. David posted: 01.03.2013 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But as bad as Danica is, I'll give her the nod over Conway." I'm going to have to go along with you on that. In 2011, Danica Patrick competed in 12 Nationwide Series events with a PEER of 0.750 (ranked 33rd), while Conway competed in nine events, recording a PEER of -1.500 (ranked 68th out of 68). Ouch. 1836. David posted: 01.03.2013 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Additionally, Conway scored a -0.009 rating in his only Cup season. But Danica's 10 races this season were disastrous, and her 2012 PEER was -1.050. 1837. Paul posted: 01.03.2013 - 1:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Piquet made the last lap pass at Las Vegas." All 1.5-mile tracks look alike when run at night, as both the Atlanta and Las Vegas races were in the Truck Series this past season. 1838. Paul posted: 01.03.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian Keselowski plans on running in the Daytona 500, driving his own #92 Toyota. He says that if sponsorship can be found, he will attempt more races and would like to switch to Ford like his brother Brad. And it is official, Travis Pastrana will run the full Nationwide schedule, driving the #60 Roush car. 1839. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't tell the mile and a halfs apart either. 1840. 18fan posted: 01.03.2013 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Marty Reid can't tell the 1.5 milers apart either. In the 2011 spring Nationwide race at Texas he said "1.5 miles to go here at Charlotte." 1841. 44andJoe posted: 01.03.2013 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Also, Turner will be fielding three full-time trucks next year for Buescher, Jeb Burton, and Miguel Paludo (I'm not sure where Kyle Larson fits into their 2013 plans). Also, Brandon Jones will run two Truck races for Turner next year as well. Also, is anyone else getting the urge to start warding when they see NASCAR.com's new look? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww... 1842. Paul posted: 01.03.2013 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When someone who is at the track can't tell the difference between two 1.5-mile tracks, you know they look alike. But then again, this is the same guy who forgot Andy Petree's name at the Brickyard this year, so let's not give him too much of a pass. 1843. Paul posted: 01.03.2013 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh. I just took a look the new NASCAR.com homepage, and it looks like they went the "TMZ route" with all the pictures they added. All that's missing are pictures of Danica and Junior in their bathing suits and leaked photos from Landon Cassill's honeymoon. 1844. 18fan posted: 01.03.2013 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with everyone who hates the new look NASCAR.com 1845. cjs3872 posted: 01.03.2013 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I visited the new NASCAR.com homepage earlier today, and it looks about as different as it could be from past incarnations, though I'll withhold my judgement until later. And about Piquet making that last-lap pass at Las Vegas, which I think was the best move anyone made in any race last year in either of the top three series, that I think gave him the confidence that he could run hard, which was evidenced in his great run at Martinsville, when he taught some of the more experienced drivers some lessons about passing on that track, and he had his door-slamming battle with Joey Coulter. But unlike other such instances, he and Coulter enjoyed that battle, which ended in Piquet's favor. And the thing about that move at Vegas was that he never for an instant touched Matt Crafton's truck while making that move, yet watching the end of that race, I had the feeling that Piquet could have passed him any time and any way he wanted to, but chose to wait until the last lap, like guys such as Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip, and David Pearson did in the old days. I will be interested, however, in his mindset when he races at Indy for the first time, since that was the place where his father was so savagely injured in a practice crash in 1992, which set the tone for the entire month of May at Indy that year. 1846. murb posted: 01.03.2013 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Nascar.com does look pretty stupid now. But it doesn't really matter to me, since I never go there anyway. I've been turned off by all of the jackasses on their forums. If I need silly season news or whatever, I just use here and Jayski. No BS, no idiotic arguments, etc. I am a bit surprised about Buescher returning to the Truck Series, but at the same time I'm impressed with his decision. Most of these young guys (the Dillons, Stenhouse, and more) seem like they are hellbent on getting to Cup as fast as they possibly can. This decision shows me that James really wants to take the time to develop as a driver. Plus, it's pretty clear that he and his championship Truck team have a great relationship, so it will be cool to see them gunning for their second straight championship. I also agree about Nelson Piquet. He has the ability to make it to Cup and have success for sure. 1847. murb posted: 01.03.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, I forgot to talk about Pastrana. I'm happy to see that he seems to be taking his move to Nascar seriously. When he first announced that he was coming a couple years ago, I was a bit skeptical. I wasn't sure if it was just a PR stunt or something. But he has shown in his East races and in his few NNS races that he is taking it seriously. Glad to see that he will be driving for a team that most likely won't misuse him as a development driver. I talk a lot of trash on Jack Roush on here, but I will say that he does do a great job (most of the time) of getting young up and comers rides. Sure, he screws a lot of them over (Erik Darnell, Colin Braun, Danny O'Quinn, almost Trevor Bayne - hopefully not Travis), but when it comes to actually giving young guys a shot in full time rides, he does do a lot better than other teams, like MWR (Pastrana's former team). Let's hope that Travis turns out like Carl, Greg, and Ricky and doesn't get Roushed like Darnell, Braun, and O'Quinn. 1848. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.03.2013 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Racing could do without energy drink pumped extreme sports losers like Pastrana. 1849. 44andJoe posted: 01.03.2013 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Racing could do without media pumped gender-identity-focused losers like Patrick. Fixed it for you. I've been impressed with Pastrana so far, actually. 1850. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.03.2013 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, 10 points for you. I just don't like the extreme sports/motorcross guys. Something about them makes me think drug addict. Probably the fact that so many of them have disturbing pale skin characteristic of drug use. 1851. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.03.2013 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh. I almost never go to NASCAR's website anymore but I wanted to see if it was as ugly as you guys said. It is. I thought somebody puked on my phone screen. 1852. Eric posted: 01.04.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am not thrilled about Nascar's website and the fact is it's been very long time that I actually liked it. 1853. Anonymous posted: 01.04.2013 - 9:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The article should read that Brian Keselowski hopes to start and park in the Daytona 500,that is all he is good for on the cup level. Him and his dad will find a mechanical failure in the car as usual. Every time Brian tried a cup race the car had some kind of mystery failure. Yet another start and park team, nothing more to see here. 1854. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.04.2013 - 10:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always say, if you are going to have the guts to make a comment like that, USE YOUR REAL NAME. I miss the NASCAR.com used from 2002 right until shortly after Benny Parsons passed away. 1855. David posted: 01.04.2013 - 10:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The article should read that Brian Keselowski hopes to start and park in the Daytona 500,that is all he is good for on the cup level. Him and his dad will find a mechanical failure in the car as usual. Every time Brian tried a cup race the car had some kind of mystery failure. Yet another start and park team, nothing more to see here." This is the same guy who was running pretty well for himself in the 2011 Daytona 500 before he got taken out in the "Big One". Of course, then he had Discount Tire sponsorship as well. 1856. Paul posted: 01.04.2013 - 2:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Him and his dad will find a mechanical failure in the car as usual." Yeah, because getting taken out in a crash at the 2011 Daytona 500 is such a lame excuse for falling out of the race. What a scam artist this guy is... 1857. Paul posted: 01.04.2013 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently there's a bar in Green Bay mocking A.D.'s failure to break Dickerson's record by putting up a big picture of a football field with a caption reading "Hey Adrian, this is what 9 yards looks like," noting that A.D. came up 9 yards short of Dickerson's record. That's funny, I could have sworn that he became the 7th running back in NFL history to reach 2,000 rushing yards in a season against YOUR team, and that YOUR team gave up 409 rushing yards to A.D. in just two games. Packer fans mocked the Giants before their playoff game last year and got their asses kicked. Don't wake the beast, and remember to stay classy, cheeseheads. 1858. Talon64 posted: 01.04.2013 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll bet Brian will attempt to run the full race, if only to help out his brother. Plus Brad will do everything he can to help Brian in the qualifying races like he did in 2011. Speaking of which, the last reigning Cup champ to win the Daytona 500 was Jeff Gordon in 1999, with Dale Jarrett also doing it in 2000. In a Ford, and Ford have won 3 of the last 4 Daytona 500's (Kenseth in 2009 and 2012, Bayne in 2011). What does all that mean? That Matt Kenseth will get Toyota their first Daytona 500 win! lol 1859. David posted: 01.04.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since everyone here seems to have this dislike for Rex Ryan (I've detected a hint of spite toward him in football discussions), here's fuel to your fire. He has a tattoo of his wife wearing Mark Sanchez's #6 jersey. I saw this on a TV. It was "Sportscenter", and when I saw Rex Ryan's name, I thought "The Racing-Reference posters will eat this up". Not that it concerns me too much. 1860. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.04.2013 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Almost time to tar and feather the Seahawks... oh, wait... just tar them! 1861. Anonymous posted: 01.04.2013 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that David, but the tattoo of Rex Ryan's wife wearing nothing but a Mark Sanchez was also "Tebowing" as well, meaning that that tattoo will be utterly worthless in the not-too-distant future as neither Sanchez or Tebow will (or should) be released. And I'm not surprised that he was off vacationing only days after his team missed the playoffs for the second straight season, since he's been on vacation for the last four years. The only difference is that he had enough talented players in his first two seasons to make up for his weaknesses as a head coach. Nothing against the Redskins, but I'm pulling for the Seahawks just because I'd love to see Jim Harbaugh get taken down a peg once again by his division rival (and former Pac-10 rival head coach) for benching Alex Smith earlier this year. Plus, I'd rather not have to listen to how great a coach Mike Shanahan is for the next week, since his coaching record shows that his success depends on how good his quarterback/team is. In other words, he's the Richard Childress of pro football. 1862. Paul posted: 01.04.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ That was my post up above. And I forgot to say this, but the Vikings would have to win for the Seahawks/Redskins to play the 49ers, since the 49ers are the #2 seed and they play the higher seed from the wildcard playoffs. 1863. Jim Davis posted: 01.04.2013 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Speaking of which, the last reigning Cup champ to win the Daytona 500 was Jeff Gordon in 1999, with Dale Jarrett also doing it in 2000." Then wouldn't Dale Jarrett be the last reigning Cup champ to win the Daytona 500? Or did I miss something? 1864. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 9:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where'd you hear something about Shanahan being a great coach... last I heard he sucked and RG3, Alfred Morris, and London Fletcher had all the brains on that team. 1865. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 9:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Any way, here are my playoff picks Wild Card Round: AFC: 6 Cincinnati over 3 Houston (Jingle bells, Batman smells; Houston laid an egg) 4 Baltimore over 5 Indianapolis (Luck has been pounded any time he has faced a good defense) NFC: 4 Washington over 5 Seattle (I'd say Seattle if it wasn't IN Washington) 6 Minnesota over 3 Green Bay (AD ran you to death last week, and he will do it again this week) Divisional Round: AFC: 1 Denver over 6 Cincinnati (no contest) 4 Baltimore over 2 New England (remember a few years ago when Baltimore was a wild card and wiped the floor with them; yeah, well this year New England's worse than that team, and Baltimore's better than that team) NFC: 1 Atlanta over 6 Minnesota (sorry, pals) 4 Washington over 2 San Francisco (as much as I like the 49ers, they almost lost to freaking Arizona, they got killed by Seattle when division games are supposed to be close, and went 0-1-1 against St. Louis) Championship Round: AFC: 4 Baltimore over 1 Denver (the Manning choke) NFC: 4 Washington over 1 Atlanta (same Atlanta team, better Washington team; Washington almost won with Cousins as quarterback) Super Bowl: 4 Baltimore over 4 Washington (Washington can't get lucky all the way, and Baltimore will stymie that play-action/run offense and force them to use a more open offense, which means more interceptions) 1866. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 11:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To add to my above... If Seattle beats Washington I see them winning the Super Bowl. 1867. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Hembree has an article over at Speedtv.com where he hails Hendrick Motorsports for being the first with all four cars in the Chase. Apparently he has no clue that Roush was 5-for-5 in 2005. 1868. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 1:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Where'd you hear something about Shanahan being a great coach..." It's not that Shanahan is a great coach, it's that he's treated like one with all the coverage and credit he receives for his teams' success during his career. He was successful with the Broncos right away because he had great players like John Elway, Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, and Shannon Sharpe, and then could only get above average results at best except for '05 when they reached the AFC Championship Game. The same thing with his tenure with the Redskins as he was mediocre the past two seasons, then made a terrific move by trading up to acquire RG3 in the draft, which was probably the smartest acquisition he made since trading for Champ Bailey with the Broncos in '04 (ironically from the Redskins). If not for the fact that he's won two Super Bowls and is coaching in the east coast market, he wouldn't be given the coverage he's been given. Some coaches are given too much credit for their teams' success, such as recent coaches like Ken Whisenhunt, Jim Caldwell, and Todd Haley because they had one or two great seasons as the head coach, and it's become clear that none of those three are great head coaches. I'm not saying that those three are in the same class of coaches as Mike Shanahan, but they all have something in common as they all benefited from coaching teams that were very good/great, and their results mirrored the team's ability. So in short, he's treated much better than he deserves as a coach from the media because of what he accomplished earlier in his career. He's a good coach, but he's treated like a great coach based on the coverage he gets from ESPN and NFL Network. Of course, he isn't the only one who gets too much coverage as two non-Super Bowl winning head coaches Rex Ryan and Andy Reid are covered far too much as well, and while I consider Reid to be on the same level as Shanahan in terms of coaching ability, it's becoming more and more clear how incompetent Ryan is as a head coach. It could be because of their location as all three (until now with Reid going to Kansas City) coached on the east coast, but that's no excuse for all three being highly regarded in the media as they are, with Shanahan at one point being treated like a God when the Redskins first hired him in 2010. 1869. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Seattle beats Washington I see them winning the Super Bowl." I agree with this. Both RG3 and Russell Wilson seem to have that clutch gene that allows them to play big in big-time games. Being that this is their first playoff game, I have a good feeling that both of them will play well tomorrow and won't do anything to cost their teams in the playoffs. And I'm not surprised that a media person would praise HMS on a false accomplishment as they are often regarded as the first multi-car team in NASCAR, even though the likes of Petty Enterprises and Junior Johnson had utilized the multi-car system years prior. What a fool that "reporter" is. 1870. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Roush had all five of its teams finish in the top 10 in points, and it would have been the top 8 had Kurt Busch not been suspended for the final two races, while HMS had two of its four teams in the bottom three of the Chase. Epic fail by SPEED. 1871. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I love how he mentioned that Jimmie Johnson will be fired up having been denied the championship last year. After all, we all know how much fire that Carl Edwards had last year, '09, and '06, Denny Hamlin had in 2011, Mark Martin had in 2010, Jeff Gordon had in '08, Matt Kenseth had in '07, and Greg Biffle had in '06 after their near-championship seasons. Wait, what? All of those guys were non-factors the next season? Four of them missed the Chase and five of them failed to win a race after their near-championship seasons? Oh gee, I guess that throws a wrench in this idea. Oh sure, some teams have bounced back to win the championship the year after being denied the title such as Jimmie in '06, Labonte in '00, Gordon in '97, and Earnhardt in '90, but the fact that this hasn't happened the past six seasons doesn't sit well for this plan, especially considering how Jimmie performed the year after winning his most impressive title in 2010. But like the things Nico and I previously alluded to, history matters not when we're talking about HMS. I guess the fact that Junior has as many wins in five seasons with HMS as Tim Richmond had in '87 when he was dying from AIDS is another HMS-related fact that will be swept under the rug. 1872. Sean posted: 01.05.2013 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And I'm not surprised that a media person would praise HMS on a false accomplishment as they are often regarded as the first multi-car team in NASCAR, even though the likes of Petty Enterprises and Junior Johnson had utilized the multi-car system years prior. What a fool that "reporter" is." Carl Kiekhaefer and Holman-Moody. That's who I think of before Petty or Johnson, even though Kiekhaefer was a jerk. "Wait, what? All of those guys were non-factors the next season? Four of them missed the Chase and five of them failed to win a race after their near-championship seasons? Oh gee, I guess that throws a wrench in this idea." Heh, David Smith JUST wrote a column arguing against the common interpretation of the runner-up curse. Speaking of this, I just wrote a guest column for him that he's talking about printing on his site next week so be on the lookout for that. It's definitely toned down a bit from some of my rantings here and the topic is an innovative idea albeit one that I have never discussed here. "I guess the fact that Junior has as many wins in five seasons with HMS as Tim Richmond had in '87 when he was dying from AIDS is another HMS-related fact that will be swept under the rug." Not to mention in one of Junior's two wins for Hendrick he was allowed to illegally pass the pace car... 1873. murb posted: 01.05.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of idiotic articles about Nascar, it's now time to hear once again from the Bleacher Report contingent. This lady Sandra Macwatters wrote a column called "Off The Wall and Bold Predictions For Nascar in 2013". Here's some of the highlights. - Danica will win a race at Daytona or Talladega. - There will be no weather delays at all during the 2013 season. - Brad Keselowski will make the Chase via a Wild Card. - Dale Earnhardt Jr will contend for the championship (and apparently will not struggle at all with the new car, even though he ALWAYS does with new cars). - KEVIN HARVICK BRINGS TITLE TO RCR. WHAT THE HELL???????? THESE PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING!!!!!! Seriously, if any of us were tapped to write an article, I can guarantee you that we would look like legendary next to these morons. For some reason, instead of making me laugh crazy, this article just depressed me. Unbelievable. 1874. 18fan posted: 01.05.2013 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. likes this car a lot more than the CoT, but will that translate to success? Of course a lot of Junior fans say that the CoT is the reason for Junior's lack of winning with HMS because he never liked it. Great drivers adapt to whatever the characteristics of the car are. 1875. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 3:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I the only one sick of the extremist feminism that surrounds Danica more than every other athlete in the world combined other than maybe Lindsay Vonn? I think Sandra Macwatters is trying too hard to be PC and not being realistic. Next we will be hearing that Darrell Wallace is the most talented driver to race in the last 50 years. Am I the only one who couldn't care less whether a racer is white or colored, or male or female so long as they can do one thing: drive the damn car good? 1876. murb posted: 01.05.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Jr. likes this car a lot more than the CoT, but will that translate to success?" I've seen where he's said that too, but I just look at how he has done in the past with changes to the car. Obviously, he didn't get adjusted to the COT. He struggled in 2007 (although the 8 blowups or whatever he had also didn't help), he did decent in 2008 just because he was hyped for his first year at HMS, but then he dipped back down horribly in 2009. I think as teams and drivers were finding new things and evolving with the COT, he wasn't. And then in 2010 when the spoiler came back, he still kept struggling. So I think he will struggle in 2013. Definitely not as bad as 2009/2010, but I think he will. Plus, I've documented before that I think his shopmates (the 48) will have their own issues this year as well, and that probably won't help the 88 either. "Am I the only one sick of the extremist feminism that surrounds Danica more than every other athlete in the world combined other than maybe Lindsay Vonn?" I haven't really payed attention to other athletes, but no, you are not the only one sick of the feminism towards her. Given how she did this year, it's ridiculous to even say that she will win a race at either Daytona or Talladega this year. In NNS driving for Turner (who's cars seemingly have a weird ability to dodge wrecks and steal wins)? MAYBE. But in Cup? NO WAY. I also want to address the other things I listed from the article. While I'm not sure if Brad Keselowski will repeat as Cup champion, I absolutely think that he will be top five in points virtually all year and WILL NOT have to rely on the Wild Card to get in the Chase. Harvick winning the championship? Honestly, I think I'm gonna be surprised if he and Childress even last the whole year together. It's gonna be the same exact situation as Kenseth and Roush were in. Think about it. Can you imagine how Harvick will react if he and the 29 are "sabotaged" or whatever like Kenseth was? Kenseth was calm and cool about it just like he always has been. But with Harvick and Childress, we are dealing with hugely explosive personalities. If similar weird stuff starts happening to the 29 late in the season, I see Harvick walking with a few races to go. So no Ms. Macwatters, he will not win the championship. And no weather delays at all? What the hell kind of stuff is that? How do you know that there will be no weather delays whatsoever throughout the whole year? Are you a meteorologist or something? She also said that one of the EGR cars will make the Chase. This is really the only thing I won't really attack her for, just because no one knows how they are gonna be with all of their supposed personnel changes and switch to Hendrick motors. They could win a bunch of races and get a car or both cars in the Chase like they've done before, or they can be mediocre like they have the past two years. Personally, I think they'll be somewhere in the middle. But yeah, in conclusion, Sandra Macwatters swung and missed with this article. Really disappointing and just plain dumb ideas. 1877. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think it's because she's a woman so much as it's because of who she is and the money she brings to the table that makes Danica such a polarizing figure in the NASCAR media. If she were in Johanna Long's or Jennifer Jo Cobb's shoes and driving for a much smaller team without a big sponsor backing her up, I don't think anyone would care about her. But because of her GoDaddy sponsorship and her "sex appeal" (personally I'm not sure why she gets so much attention for her looks), she gets a lot of attention that anybody else with her driving ability wouldn't get because their talent didn't warrant a lot of coverage. But because of the money she brings to the table and her name recognition, she will always get coverage, just like Travis Pastrana got in his limited starts last year. Add-in the fact that she's a woman, and the media will bend-over backwards to mention "Danica Patrick" and "history" in the same sentence as many times as possible to get a piece of the pie that her name and sponsorship brings to the table. One great example of this came after the season ended when the media started to gloat over the fact that she became the first female driver to finish in the top 10 in Nationwide Series points. But if you look at the facts and have no stake in the sport as far as being a driver, media member, or personality (such as us), the only headlines that should be out there are "Danica finishes two races behind independent driver Mike Bliss in the points," "Danica finishes four races behind less-experienced teammate Cole Whitt in the points," "Danica finishes six races behind Michael Annett, whose team didn't exist one month before the season started," "Danica edges out independent driver Joe Nemechek for 10th in points, despite Nemechek sitting out one race," and "Danica only beats three drivers who ran the full schedule (all of whom driver for independent teams)." Those are the real stories that should be written, but instead we're being told how great she is, how her failures weren't her fault, how she just needs more experience, how the other drivers are out to get her, how her crew chief lacked chemistry with her, and how she's the greatest female driver in NASCAR history because she finished 10 in points in a series where only 13 drivers ran every race. BULL. F'N. SHIT. I've heard that when it comes to politics, sometimes it's best to watch no news at all to get the full story because you're not being fed somebody else's agenda. Now that I think about it, that makes a lot of sense when it comes to other acts of life, including sports. When it comes to football, if you watch the news you would that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were the greatest quarterbacks of all-time, but if you look at the facts you'll notice that the numbers aren't necessarily in their favor. And when it comes to NASCAR, you would think Danica and Junior were the two greatest drivers simply by reading/watching the news, but if you do your own research you will find that this is not even remotely true. So if there's a lesson to be learned from the "Danica-Mania Media Train," it's that you must do your own research rather than listen to the media, and I think a lot of us do a very good job at doing that already. 1878. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 3:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When you actually consider who ran for what teams full-time in the NNS this year, Danica was actually the worst full-time driver out there. 1879. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) May God have mercy on us all if Danica ever wins a NASCAR race. I'd probably stop watching NASCAR for the rest of the season if that happened. murb brings up an interesting point about Harvick not lasting the full season with RCR. I could see two scenarios where he would leave during the season, and they both involve him not being a championship contender: One would be if Ryan Newman is a distant 2nd in the SHR camp, and is having a down season with no wins and no hopes of making the Chase, and SHR decides to get a head-start on 2014 by luring Harvick away from RCR a few months early. The other scenario would be if the rumors of them having a 4th part-time car with Scott Riggs turn out to be true, and that car is up enough on speed that they feel confident in putting Harvick in that car early, despite it not having a lot of owner's points to be locked into every race. This is a lot less likely to happen because it's no guarantee that this 4th SHR car will even exist, much less be up to speed, but it's still a small possibility. Of course, none of this matters if RCR has a binding contract that prevents Harvick before the end of the season, but given the fact that RCR is always behind the times (even waiting until this past season before they held a pit crew combine), there's a good chance that nothing is preventing Harvick from leaving RCR at all. 1880. Cheez Hedd posted: 01.05.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Ponder is out for Minny (and I hope he plays, even as a Pack Rat, because I want it to be an epic game) Green Bay should win by as much as they want to. Key on the not-quite-record-setting RB every play. Minny has no QB behind Ponder at all. 1881. 18fan posted: 01.05.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ponder threw a few passes in warmups and it doesn't look promising. So it looks like Joe Webb will start for Minnesota. 1882. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.05.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The bleacher report has really been putting out way out there columns. 1883. murb posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "she will always get coverage, just like Travis Pastrana got in his limited starts last year." I agree, but I definitely give Travis a lot more credit and respect than her. At least Travis is actually taking the time to develop through the ranks. He's run a limited East schedule the past two years, and he's just now gonna run full time in NNS. Meanwhile, TP (The Princess) is just going right to Cup after only a year and a half of NNS competition (and a mediocre limited schedule in Cup). Sure, it's probably not entirely her decision to jump up that fast. But the part that ticks me off is that she acts like she's already an elite Cup driver. She demands the respect of an elite Cup driver, even though she doesn't give that same respect to people on the track. And as she isn't showing respect on track, the media (and the feminists, as Nico was saying) give her a pass and say that she's just standing up for herself. There's tons of examples of this happening over the past year (her wrecking Hornish after the checkers for no reason at Talladega, her wrecking Sorenson for no reason at Indy, her incident with Cassill at Kansas, etc). I definitely see Travis becoming a hell of a lot better of a driver than she will ever be. So at least he will be earning his coverage by running good, unlike TP. 1884. 18fan posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Both Landon Cassill and Travis Kvapil will return to BK Racing this year. 1885. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh I agree about Pastrana, as I actually like him and think he is taking his NASCAR career seriously. That being said, he does get unnecessary coverage in his limited appearances. I remember the Michigan Nationwide race when Andy Petree, who is one of the few media people who haven't sold-out, was practically jumping up and down as Pastrana managed to not hit the wall during his three spins, when the real story should be that Pastrana spun out three times. Period. But I liked Pastrana's interview after the race, as he was clearly upset with himself for how lousy he ran that day and seemed determined to not let that happen again, and I give him props for that. I can't say that Danica would have taken the blame for having such a bad race if the shoe was on the other foot, but then again we can't expect someone to admit on a weekly basis how much they suck. 1886. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good move by BK Racing to re-sign both Cassill and Kvapil. I think Cassill has a good future in NASCAR, and Kvapil is more than competent to drive for a smaller full-time Cup team. I don't understand the media reports throughout the season, including from David Smith, saying that Kvapil was regularly being outperformed by Cassill and should be released. From what I saw, Cassill seems to have a higher ceiling, but Kvapil was far more consistent and better at transmitting information to make the car better than Cassill was. 1887. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who was it that called Danica "Princess Sparkle Pony"? 1888. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh great. Christian Ponder has been declared inactive for tonight's game, and Joe Webb, who hasn't thrown a pass all season, will get the start for tonight's game. Luckily we have A.D. and a very good defense to carry the load, but I'd hate to lose this game and go into the offseason with that "What if..." feeling. 1889. 18fan posted: 01.05.2013 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A small team like BK Racing needs a veteran driver like Kvapil who can consistently bring the car home in one piece. 1890. 18fan posted: 01.05.2013 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sandra McWatters wrote an article about 5 active drivers who could've rivaled the King and her 5 drivers were: Tony Stewart Clint Bowyer Matt Kenseth Ryan Newman Brad Keselowski 1891. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How do you make a list like that and not have Jeff Gordon or Jimmie Johnson on it? I would argue that they have adapted to each of NASCAR's car body changes during their respective careers better than any other driver in the sport, from the '95 Monte Carlo, to the '07 COT, to the changes made in each of the last three seasons. But I see what she did. She listed five "old school" drivers. Stewart is a driver who could race in any era, I think both Kenseth's conservative driving style and Brad's assertive driving style would be perfect for that era, Newman would be a toss-up because he would be more prone to blowing up engines than the other four due to his hard driving style, and Bowyer would have to hope that Petty, Pearson, Allison, Cale, and Darrell all fell out of the race before he had a shot at winning. Add-in the fact that a lot of the drivers back in the day were independents, and I would give Stewart, Brad, and Kenseth the nod, along with Gordon and Johnson to fill out that top five list. 1892. Paul posted: 01.05.2013 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep, that "What if..." feeling I mentioned earlier is now hovering over me. Joe Webb just looked lost for about 95% of the game, while actually making really good plays the other 5% of the time. The Packers may not have been prepared for him, but he clearly wasn't prepared for this game, which is understandable because this was basically his first game of the year and it just happened to be a playoff game in Green Bay. The fact that the Vikings only lost by 14 points is a pretty sickening feeling because a more prepared quarterback could have won that game. I think the Vikings' biggest mistake was not signing a capable veteran quarterback like Sage Rosenfels for this game, because the lack of leadership and confidence at the quarterback position for this game was noticeable the whole game. Congrats to the Packers on a well-deserved win, but I can't help but think that the result may have been different had Ponder been healthy or if a more prepared quarterback like Sage had been signed. Hopefully either the Colts or Seahawks (sorry Nico) win tomorrow, preferably the Colts, so that this Wild Card round wasn't a complete disappointment. 1893. David posted: 01.06.2013 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I attend a family reunion and what do I get? I miss 32 comments. "When you actually consider who ran for what teams full-time in the NNS this year, Danica was actually the worst full-time driver out there." Not quite. While Danica was lousy (0.621 PEER), she was not the worst. Out of drivers who RAN every race, only Mike Wallace (0.409) and Brian Scott (0.045) were worse. Just for grins, Johanna Long had a 1.119 PEER through 21 starts. "May God have mercy on us all if Danica ever wins a NASCAR race. I'd probably stop watching NASCAR for the rest of the season if that happened." Oh please. I would simply avoid NASCAR media outlets for a week. On Travis Pastrana, I disliked him when he first came into NASCAR, buying into Michael Waltrip's Nationwide operation and basically giving himself a ride. But since then, I have grown to like him a little bit. I hate to be a bubble burster, but through 9 starts, his PEER was -0.222. He can improve, though. "I don't understand the media reports throughout the season, including from David Smith, saying that Kvapil was regularly being outperformed by Cassill and should be released." Hmmm, I don't recall these articles you speak of, but in David Smith's BK Racing team recap, he stated basically that they were both doing great for BKR. Kvapil actually outproduced Cassill by 0.092 points. He also complimented the team chemistry between Kvapil and rookie crew chief Todd Anderson. 1894. Paul posted: 01.06.2013 - 2:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh please. I would simply avoid NASCAR media outlets for a week." Believe me, this story will last far longer than one week. I'd take the whole season off just to be safe. And I went through all of David Smith's tweets since October and couldn't find anything about him suggesting that Kvapil should be replaced, so I must have heard that from a different source. I apologize for saying that if it is in fact not true. One thing I found funny was him basically applauding James Finch for coming out and saying that he'll be using a rotating driver lineup in 2013 with Regan and Dinger (and maybe more), since his history shows that he's probably going to make a driver change anyways during the season. Does anybody know anything about this apparent dislike that Finch has towards Brian Scott? I'm guessing that it's because of Scott's past history of "buying-a-ride," but I'm curious if there's something more to this story that I don't know. This probably explains why Scott wasn't offered the #51 ride for 2013 that he was rumored to. From what I understand via his tweets, Justin Allgaier will be back in the #31 next season (good move by Turner), but that he should be looking for another ride because of the uncertainties that lie with Turner's team. I think it would be in Allgaier's best interest to try running a few races for Finch next year in hopes of earning a 2014 Cup ride, because even though he had his moments of bad driving last season, he's too talented to just waste away in the Nationwide Series, especially now that Roush, RCR, JGR, and JRM are putting a lot more focus on that series. And just for fun, let's take a look at JRM's offseason transactions: - Traded Danica Patrick to Turner for both Kasey Kahne and Brad Sweet. - Signed Regan Smith and (pretty much) released Cole Whitt. Smart moves made by Kelley Earnhardt-Miller as she builds her team for 2013. The long-term future of this team doesn't look that great from this because Kahne has a full-time Cup ride, Regan is running Nationwide with hopes of returning to Cup, and Sweet is a career replacement-level driver (feel free to correct me if that statement is wrong, David), but they do appear set to have an improved season in 2013. Now all they need is a top developmental driver in their stable, such as Kyle Larson, Corey LaJoie, or Ross Chastain, to build on for the future (I don't count under-aged driver Chase Elliott). 1895. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.06.2013 - 9:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My NFL picks stink... stupid Joe Webb. 1896. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.06.2013 - 11:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I loved that MacWatters reasoning for why Bowyer and Newman (of all the talentless hacks we have now) could challenge Petty was that their careers started in sprint cars. Really? Can you imagine a guy as unable to consistently win as Kenseth able to compete for titles back when the prerequisite to winning the title was about 8 wins at least? 1897. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.06.2013 - 12:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that not having Ponder did hurt the Vikings and I the Vikings would have beaten the Packers otherwise based on the Packers played in the 2nd half on offense. I don't know if not having Ponder affected Peterson's effectiveness against the Packers because the Packers didn't give Peterson the outside to run for most of the game. I am saying that because the Packers before the game planned to prevent Peterson from going to the outside. That meant the Vikings needed to be the Packers by the air as a result. Take the 4th quarter 18 yard run, Peterson had 81 carries on 21 yard rushes. The other thing with the 81 yards without the 18 run was the fact the Packers stopped Peterson after the Vikings first drive. 1898. Cheez Hedd posted: 01.06.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @1897: The Packers would never have backed off entirely in the second half, like they did, if Minny had a real QB in the game. Rodgers has already apologized -- as should all his teammates -- for "letting off the throttle" in the second half. I said before the game that if Ponder was out, the Pack would easily win by as much as they wanted to. Which is eaxctly what they did. They only "wanted" to win by that much. 1899. 18fan posted: 01.06.2013 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe Finch doesn't like Brian Scott's penchant for tearing up race cars. Remember that he told Kurt Busch last year that he needed to start bringing the cars home in one piece. 1900. David posted: 01.06.2013 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Believe me, this story will last far longer than one week. I'd take the whole season off just to be safe." OK, sure. But I would not stop watching the races. "Sweet is a career replacement-level driver (feel free to correct me if that statement is wrong, David)" All I know is that Sweet's PEER this year was 0.500 through 18 starts. So far. By the way, David Smith is now doing Formula One statistics on MotorsportsAnalytics.com. 1901. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.06.2013 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Boiling up the pot o'tar to apply to Marshawn Lynch and Russell Wilson. 1902. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.06.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *blue streak* f**k you Seahawks! 1903. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.06.2013 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A sad end to the Washington Redskins Season 1904. 44andJoe posted: 01.06.2013 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...huh. According to Amazon, "The Official Nascar 2013 Preview and Press Guide" releases on January 29th. It's back? 1905. Sector posted: 01.07.2013 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just glad that Brad/Paul/Roger were able to score their first Cup together, but as well as HMS/Jeff winning their first & maybe only Homestead race. They were long overdue for one here. 1906. Anonymous posted: 01.07.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "...huh. According to Amazon, "The Official Nascar 2013 Preview and Press Guide" releases on January 29th. It's back?" It's listed at Walmart too, along with a cover picture. I think it's real! http://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Official-Nascar-Preview-and-Press-Guide-2013-All-Official-Statistics-and-Schedules/20930997 1907. murb posted: 01.07.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sprint is gonna sponsor the Shootout at Daytona, but it will now be called The Sprint Unlimited. Brain France's Sprint Motor Cup Series: Taking 30 year traditions and flushing them down the toilet. 1908. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Sprint Unlimited! It's unlimited! It will have everything! Well, except the top two points finishers. Like murb said, yet another fun NASCAR tradition pissed away. Glad I work that weekend, but am off for the Daytona 500 weekend. 1909. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.07.2013 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And for the record, if it is gonna be "The Sprint" anything, shouldn't that be the name of the "All Star Race" (which features the same drivers you see every week anyways, just with most of the scrubs removed)? That would keep with the tradition of the event which was known as The Winston. Oh right, tradition. Meaningless. Very symbolic of the Brain France era. Sigh. Oh well, in honor of a race being titled "The (insert Series sponsor name here)", albeit in a bastardized version, here is one of the greatest broadcast lines in NASCAR history" "And Earnhardt loses it, goes on to the grass, and Elliott... (a few seconds of silence while a stunned broadcast crew joins everyone else watching trying to process how Dale manages a) to keep from wrecking and b) keep the damn lead) AND EARNHARDT'S STILL GOT THE LEAD, INCREDIBLE!!!!" By broadcasting legend Keith Jackson no less! That move by Dale got more than Keith's famous "Whoa Nellie!" treatment. I'd add that to his career highlights. "Did something so incredible, it kept Keith Jackson from going straight to his reliable "Whoa Nellie!" line and just scream "INCREDIBLE!" instead". 1910. 18fan posted: 01.07.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the top 2 points finishers didn't qualify. They actually are going back to the way the race was before. There was nothing guaranteeing champions into the race when it was the Busch Clash. 1911. 44andJoe posted: 01.07.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's good to see the event actually back to polewinning being the eligibility. Instead of the bizarro "top 20 AND past champs AND rookie of the year that means you Kevin Conway"... 1912. David posted: 01.07.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't quite get why everyone is complaining about the Shootout being another tradition thrown away. Except for the REALLY STUPID name change, I am looking forward to it. 1913. murb posted: 01.07.2013 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't quite get why everyone is complaining about the Shootout being another tradition thrown away." lol, I was partially joking. I too am excited to see that winning poles will actually mean something again. I'm pretty sure they named it "The Unlimited" because of some promotion thing that Sprint is doing where they give out unlimited data on their plans or something. So maybe if we're lucky, that promotion will fizzle out this year and by 2014 it will be called The Sprint Shootout, which sounds way cooler. I've never liked Sprint as the title sponsor. Thanks to them, several teams have lost sponsorship just because of their self-centered "no one can be sponsored by a mobile supplier unless if it's us, even though we won't sponsor you because we're already sponsoring the series" rule. And then of course there was the deal that happened after Tony won the championship. Their own guy that they sent from the company didn't even know what the series was called, so he called it the "Sprint Motor Cup Series" (the joke I used earlier). To me, that just showed that they probably don't even give a damn about the sport, and that they are just in it to maybe get a little more recognition for themselves since Verizon and AT&T are kicking their ass in the mobile biz. I don't know. I just miss the Winston days. Yeah, their company promotes a terrible habit, but they seemed like they actually cared and loved being a part of the sport. 1914. Paul posted: 01.08.2013 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone else watch the BCS National Championship Game? In the words of Dale Earnhardt, "That's what you call an ass kicking!" Sadly, as a Notre Dame fan, I have to agree. They reminded me of the Vikings in their playoff loss to the Packers on Saturday: Very lousy for the first 2 1/2 quarters, then pretty good for the final 1 1/2 quarters when the game was out of reach. Notre Dame hadn't won a National Championship since before I was born in 1988 (although I still think they should have won it in '93 since they beat Florida State, who was awarded the National Championship, during the regular season), and unfortunately for me they got their ass handed to them by a dominant Alabama team (the new 33rd NFL team). Congrats to Alabama and head coach Nick Saban on a job well done, winning their 3rd National title in four years, and the 4th straight for the state of Alabama (although that could change if the NCAA's investigation on Auburn's 2010 title win is successful; as someone who dislikes both Auburn and Scam Newton, this would make my day). Saban doesn't want the word "dynasty" to be used to describe his team, but in all honesty, he has built Alabama into a dynasty and I believe has now surpassed Pete Carroll's USC teams in the ranking of greatest college football dynasties. Well done. Oh, and their quarterback A.J. McCarron has to learn a lesson in respect. You don't call out and get in the face of your senior center Barrett Jones like that, especially when you have a 42-14 lead in the 4th quarter. I don't care if Jones shouldn't have been making calls at the line and didn't snap the ball when you wanted it snapped, you don't get into a senior's face like that; especially one who has been a part of three National Championship teams and is one of the most decorated offensive linemen in Alabama history, winning the Outland Trophy last year (best interior lineman) and the Rimington Trophy this year (best center). I know they kissed and made up afterwards, but it was still uncalled for. Hopefully he changes his behavior the next time he has a dispute with a teammate, because that temper tantrum he threw was worse than anything I've seen Jay Cutler do (and I'm an admitted Jay Cutler fan, even though he's played his whole career in the same division as one of my two favorite NFL teams). 1915. Paul posted: 01.08.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the name change for the previously-named Budweiser Shootout to Sprint Unlimited, any NASCAR tradition that survived the 2004 house cleaning of NASCAR traditions is living on borrowed time before they are gone as well. And I say 2004 not just because that was Brian France and Nextel/Sprint's first full year of running NASCAR and its top series, but because it was the year when several NASCAR traditions ended. Among those traditions that ended in 2004 were the Labor Day weekend Southern 500 (as well as the removal of the 2nd Darlington race), the two Rockingham dates (and the start of a 7-year hiatus from The Rock after the 2nd weekend of the season), the championship being decided by a driver's performance over the course of a full season, the loss of three key NASCAR partners (Winston, Union 76, and Pontiac), and the beginning of Cup drivers running a full Nationwide schedule with Greg Biffle running every Cup and Busch race that season. I just don't get the name "Sprint Unlimited". What's so unlimited about a 70-lap shootout on a one-groove restrictor plate track? The number of laps run in single-file? The number of cautions caused by a bone-headed move, such as Kurt Busch's 3-wide move in the July race? The amount of words used by the Waltrip brothers on commentary? The number of times the commentators act as if a single-file race is exciting? The number of times Kyle Busch or Junior's names are mentioned? It's not the fact that they changed the name of the race that I have a problem with it because I've gotten used to traditions being broken, but it's the choice of name change from "Shootout" to "Unlimited" that I don't understand. But then again, this is the same sport that changed the rules of the Shootout race so that the Rookie of the Year (who just happened to be the rich boy with the big Home Depot sponsorship) could compete in the event, so there shouldn't be any surprise over the name change. 1916. Paul posted: 01.08.2013 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Their own guy that they sent from the company didn't even know what the series was called, so he called it the "Sprint Motor Cup Series"" He actually called it as the "Sprint Motor Cup Speed Series". He also said that it was Stewart's 1st championship as an owner, which he is technically right about since Stewart is listed as the team's co-owner, but I think saying "This is your first championship as the listed owner of an HMS satellite team that gets all of its resources from HMS" would be more accurate. Eh, the guy would just mess that part up too, so it's probably best he just kept that part of his speech short. 1917. 18fan posted: 01.08.2013 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Sprint Motor Cup Speed Series is a classic fail that defines the Brian France era of NASCAR, even though it was the clown from Sprint who actually said that. 1918. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.08.2013 - 4:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why not make it go back to the original 20 laps from the Busch Clash era and just call it "The Sprint" 1919. kup posted: 01.08.2013 - 12:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Nascar Cup - UPS! Final Ranking after 36 races. Universal Points System = Driver-s Distance /divide/ Average Finish. 2000 = Twice Three Zero = No Drivers Line = "Top 0" = 6*Hotel. 1346 Brad Keselowski 13596,98 / 10,1 D-Penske 1339 Greg Biffle 13654,63 / 10,2 F-Roush 1235 Clint Bowyer 13460,88 / 10,9 T-Waltrip 1226 Matt Kenseth 13607,19 / 11,1 F-Roush 1171 Dale Earnhardt, Jr, 12765,96 / 10,9 C-Hendr 1130 Kevin Harvick / C-Child 1122 Jimmie Johnson / C-Hendr 1102 Martin Truex, Jr, / T-Waltrip 1048 Denny Hamlin / T-Gibbs 1014 Kasey Kahne / C-Hendr 1000 = Three Zero = Top Drivers Line = "Top 5-10" = 5*Hotel. 983 Tony Stewart / C-Stewart 973 Kyle Busch / T-Gibbs 920 Jeff Gordon / C-Hendr 882 Paul Menard / C-Child 855 Ryan Newman / C-Stewart 848 Carl Edwards / F-Roush 764 Joey Logano / T-Gibbs 752 Marcos Ambrose / F-Petty 685 Jeff Burton / C-Child 673 = Half of the LEADER = Good Drivers Line = "Top 15-20" = 4*Hotel. 669 Aric Almirola / F-Petty 664 Jamie McMurray / C-Ganas 615 Mark Martin / T-Waltrip 602 Juan Montoya / C-Ganas 583 Bobby Labonte / T-JTD 530 Kurt Busch / C-Phoeni 523 Regan Smith / C-Row 500 = Half of Three Zero = Center Drivers Line = "Top 20-25" = 3*Hotel. 1920. Sean posted: 01.08.2013 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't quite get why everyone is complaining about the Shootout being another tradition thrown away. Except for the REALLY STUPID name change, I am looking forward to it." Totally. It's a return to tradition not allowing top points finishers to qualify for the race if they didn't win a pole. I still think 70 laps is way too long for this, and I think maybe I'd like to see the race return to 20 laps, maybe with a 10-lap qualifying race among top 20 points finishers who didn't win a pole with only the winner advancing. That would seem to be the best of both worlds... "I've never liked Sprint as the title sponsor. Thanks to them, several teams have lost sponsorship just because of their self-centered "no one can be sponsored by a mobile supplier unless if it's us, even though we won't sponsor you because we're already sponsoring the series" rule. I don't know. I just miss the Winston days. Yeah, their company promotes a terrible habit, but they seemed like they actually cared and loved being a part of the sport." I think Winston kept other cigarette manufacturers out as well. They just did so more subtly. Given Marlboro's heavy sponsorship of McLaren (and later Ferrari) in Formula One and their long-standing sponsorship of the Penske team in CART (later IRL), I bet they would have been in NASCAR if they'd been allowed in the '90s... CART had several other cigarette sponsors active (KOOL and Player's) and NASCAR had several chewing tobacco sponsors (Kodiak and Skoal) so I think there's a good chance Winston was keeping sponsors like Marlboro out, but we'll never be able to prove it. Hey, if Sprint hadn't forced Verizon out of Cup, Will Power might be sponsorless right now so in that sense I don't mind... Especially when the #12 car in Cup at that point was being driven by David Stremme... 1921. joey2448 posted: 01.08.2013 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really don't care whether or not the top two in points from 2012 are competing in the Bud Shootout (or the Sprint Unlimited, as it's now called), and as far as the name change, I usually stick to the original name. I'm still calling this race the Bud Shootout, just like I still call Indy's race the Brickyard 400. 1922. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.08.2013 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Sean, remember the Smoking Joe's #23? 1923. Sean posted: 01.08.2013 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Camel = Winston = R.J. Reynolds Not a conflict. 1924. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.08.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Too bad a "driver who is trending on Twitter" the most one day before the "Sprint Unlimited" competition isn't happening... just to add another layer of ridiculousness. Seriously, Sprint this is the best title name? Who suggested this title, Ryan Seacrest? 1925. Eric posted: 01.08.2013 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have no issues with having the top 2 drivers in points not in Sprint unlimited. I don't know how many you remembered the old days of this race when it was the Busch Clash Back in the old days, the only drivers who raced in this race where drivers that actually won a pole. Even my all time favorite Driver Dale sr., has missed the Busch Clash/Bush Shootout before. He didn't win a pole in 1980 despite being cup champion. Brad missing it isn't a big deal as a result. Dale Earnhardt Sr. wasn't know for his qualifying ability despite winning 22 poles in career including winning 4 poles in a season 2 times. There have been cup drivers as champions that are better on race day than Qualifying day. Dale Sr, Matt Kenseth, Tony Stewart, and Brad Keselowski in terms of NASCAR modern era drivers. I mention Brad because I think he is cut from the Earnhardt, Stewart, Kenseth mold of making their cars better on race day. I didn't put Terry Labonte down, He doesn't have a great career qualifying average of a 17.9, but he actually has career 27 poles with 25 of them came from 1981 to 1996. Terry has 3 seasons of 4 poles in a season. Terry Labonte raced full season past his prime for many years and the other thing to look at is Terry from 1990 to 1993 wasn't exactly racing in great equipment. Evan a fading Junior Johnson organization from 1987 to 1989 was better than Terry had from 1990 to 1993. Stewart to me isn't a great qualifier or a good one. Stewart only has 14 poles in 14 seasons. I know Stewart has a better Qualifying average than Terry Labonte, but if you ask any driver who's more of a threat to win in their would go to Terry Labonte. 1926. murb posted: 01.08.2013 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think Winston kept other cigarette manufacturers out as well." Yeah, they probably did. But like I said, at least they actually cared about the sport. To me, Sprint just comes off as nothing more than a corporate partner. Winston seemed like they were part of the family. "remember the Smoking Joe's #23?" lol, Every time I think of that car, I always think of Jimmy Spencer (in his clownish yellow, purple, and green firesuit, mind you) trying to beat up Wally Dallenbach at Dover in 1996. It's on Youtube, if you've never seen it. 1927. Anonymous posted: 01.08.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant in sentence "I know Stewart has a better Qualifying average than Terry Labonte, but if you ask any driver who's more of a threat to win in their would go to Terry Labonte: is I know Stewart has a better Qualifying average than Terry Labonte, but if you ask any driver who's more of a threat to win a pole in their prime would go to Terry Labonte. 1928. Eric posted: 01.08.2013 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post 1927 actually is me, I forgot to mention my name 1929. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.08.2013 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I just miss the Winston days. Yeah, their company promotes a terrible habit, but they seemed like they actually cared and loved being a part of the sport." Exactly. I have never smoked cigarettes and find it a very off putting habit, and yes, extremely unhealthy. But their devotion to the sport, especially in the days when hardly anybody else wanted to be involved with NASCAR, and the way they came up with ground breaking promotions to get NASCAR (as well as themselves) on the map like the Winston Million and The Winston exhibition event is a HUGE part of NASCAR's climb to national prominence. Funny (in a dark way), I work as a paramedic in Winston Salem and the most types of patients we treat are those with breathing problems caused from years of smoking (with problems from years of alcohol abuse being a close second). But our main ambulance station is downtown, literally one block away from RJ Reynold's big production factory. It is in plain sight, and if we go east to our call we have to pass right by it. And the hospital we take most of these patients to (Baptist Hospital) has a clear view of the top of the Winston Tower. Dark irony to say the least. Now for something related to this that is funny in a funny way. For years, what is now the Winston Tower was the Wachovia building. Well, they moved to a brand new building a few blocks over in the mid 90's that has the funniest design of any building ever. Seriously, go to Google images and type in "Winston Salem Wachovia building" or "Winston Salem Wells Fargo Building" (I guess Wells Fargo bought Wachovia) and prepare to laugh. That's my hometown ladies and gentlemen, the home of big tobacco and the giant penis building, Winston Salem. 1930. Bronco posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The reason the Bud Shootout is now called the Sprint Unlimited is due to Sprint advertising their "unlimited" data plans, that's all. I'm just happy that they revised the format to how it was before with only pole winners and previous winners being eligible. I couldn't care less about the name change, they could call the race the Teletubbies 175 and I'd still watch it. Not sure why people think Keselowski and Bowyer should be included due to their finishing positions in the final standings. The 2013 format was announced during Speedweeks 2012, and neither one of them put enough of an emphasis on qualifying in order to secure their spots, even though Truex and Allmendinger won poles last year. 1931. David posted: 01.09.2013 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "they could call the race the Teletubbies 175 and I'd still watch it." Well, let's not get too crazy here. Our very own Sean wrote an article that is posted on Motorsports Analytics. It does not require a subscription to read. 1932. Smiff_2 posted: 01.09.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean!!! You're in the links section of Jayski! Good job! And the article itself was GREAT. It's always good to see NASCAR's rose-colored PR bullshit broken down and debunked. Well done! 1933. Sean posted: 01.09.2013 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks, guys. I actually did have an article linked on Jayski once before (2006 I think) on a site called StockCarReview that no longer exists. It was much less interesting. There wasn't room for it in the article, but here's the list of natural lead change counts for each race in 2012: Daytona - 14 Phoenix - 8 Las Vegas - 5 Bristol - 4 Fontana - 2 Martinsville - 7 Texas - 7 Kansas - 1 Richmond - 4 Talladega - 23 Darlington - 6 Charlotte - 18 Dover - 7 Pocono - 5 Michigan - 8 Sonoma - 2 Kentucky - 5 Daytona - 2 Loudon - 2 Indianapolis - 3 Pocono - 4 Watkins Glen - 3 Michigan - 3 Bristol - 9 Atlanta - 8 Richmond - 12 Chicagoland - 2 Loudon - 4 Dover - 3 Talladega - 44 Charlotte - 7 Kansas - 3 Martinsville - 12 Texas - 7 Phoenix - 5 Homestead - 6 The spring Kansas race was probably the most overrated race in terms of NASCAR's own statistics. Martin Truex, Jr. dominated from start to finish but you may not remember that he initially inherited the lead because then-leader A.J. Allmendinger ran out of gas entering a green-flag cycle of pit stops. I counted Truex's first lead as incidental, and all future leads as incidental as well because Truex was never passed for the lead naturally after that until Denny Hamlin passed him at the end. Truex's dominance in that race was obviously the most overrated performance in 2012, and this explains why his incidental percent led is so much higher than most other drivers'. 1934. Sean posted: 01.09.2013 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm gonna add that lead changes aren't necessary for excitement. That entire race at Watkins Glen held my interest, while I found the Coca-Cola 600 rather dull, but yes, if you're going to report on lead changes, by all means report on REAL lead changes. It is kind of hard to differentiate between certain categories (especially strategic vs. incidental...I could have just as easily counted Truex taking the lead after Allmendinger ran out of gas at Kansas as strategic, but it definitely wasn't natural or resumptive). 1935. Paul posted: 01.09.2013 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Vikings will host both the Panthers and Redskins next season. So DSFF and Nico, prepare to be my bitches for two games next season :) Jeremy Mayfield reached out to Brian France on Eli Gold's MRN radio program yesterday, asking to have a sit-down talk with France some time to discuss him returning to NASCAR. France thanked Mayfield for finally talking to him about this, but said that he would have to go through the "Road to Recovery" program in order to be reinstated. I didn't hear the interview, but by reading the quotes, I'm under the impression that Mayfield isn't interested in going through rehab as he got off the line soon after France told him what he would need to do to be reinstated. Great article, Sean. I think another reason why drivers like Jimmie and Brad are so high on the strategic laps led list, while drivers like Kyle and Tony are lower on the strategic laps led list is because of how well the drivers work with their team and their desire to win the race more than dominate it. Kyle and Tony are hard-headed, aggressive drivers who seem more interested in winning a race in dominating fashion than they are with working out a strategy to sneak out a win. Brad and Jimmie on the other hand are less aggressive than the other two and are more likely to listen to their strategic-minded crew chiefs as well, and are more interested in getting the win than they are at dominating the race, although Jimmie has a lead foot and has a tendency to drive too hard (for better or worse) at times. Also, I checked your website and I noticed than Greg Biffle was the only driver to be running at the finish in all 36 races in 2012, with Dale Earnhardt, Jr. being the only other driver to finish every race he competed in among drivers with at least three starts. This was the first time Biffle finished every race in a season, with his previous best being 35 finishes in 2005 when he finished a career best 2nd in points; and it was the second time that Junior finished every race he competed in, having also done so in 2010, and the fourth time in the last five seasons that he registered no more than two DNFs. 1936. Sean posted: 01.09.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And crap, I miscounted. There were only 11 races with 3 or fewer natural lead changes, not 13. How embarrassing. Oh well. I still like the article. 1937. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.09.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean The Bristol Night race had 11 green flag lead changes 1938. Sean posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wasn't counting green flag lead changes. I was counting green flag lead changes with both cars at full speed (excluding instances where the leader pits, wrecks, blows an engine, etc...) In other words, in any race that has a green-flag exchange of pit stops, those lead changes count as strategic. Two of the lead changes that were technically under green (Stewart lap 332 and Logano lap 333) I counted as incidental, NOT as natural lead changes. Stewart took the lead by spinning across the line before Kenseth did when they spun out together, then Logano took the lead after both of them spun. Both of those lead changes were ultimately due to dumb luck, not due to skill, and were counted as incidental. 1939. murb posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats on your article Sean. I've always thought that you are one of the most knowledgeable posters on here, so you deserve it for sure. Good job. Hmm, haven't heard from Jeremy Mayfield in a while. I'm interested to find a link to the audio from that "confrontation" on the Eli Gold show. Mayfield has no one to blame but himself for not being able to race in Nascar. Like, look what Allmendinger did. He acknowledged that he made a mistake, went through their rehab program, and is now back in the Cup Series in a part time, pretty decent, non start and park ride. In my opinion, that is a hell of a comeback. Like Paul said, Mayfield has had the opportunity to go through their program, but for some reason he just keeps blaming everyone else when he clearly is at fault for all this. He just keeps burying himself with his denial. 1940. murb posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, I just listened to the Mayfield thing. If you Google search for "Jeremy Mayfield Brian France Eli Gold" you'll find it. Basically, like always, THE MEDIA BLEW IT WAY THE HELL OUT OF PROPORTION. The link I went to says "Jeremy Mayfield Ambushes France", but the actual audio of it wasn't an ambush at all. Mayfield called up, asked what he had to do to get back in Nascar, France explained it to him, and then Mayfield politely thanked him and hung up. The media just disgusts me. They'll do anything just to get a read. I think it ties in with what we were talking about the other day with the Bleacher Report people. They just spew whatever garbage they think will get the most attention, no matter how untrue it is. 1941. David posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, since when are there three plate races? That's what I read in the article. 1942. Sean posted: 01.09.2013 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were three plate races with 10+ natural lead changes (the Coke Zero 400 only had two). That's what I was trying to say, but I probably could have said that better. 1943. David posted: 01.09.2013 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, now I see. Great article. 1944. 44andJoe posted: 01.09.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Well, they moved to a brand new building a few blocks over in the mid 90's that has the funniest design of any building ever. Have you see the Florida State Capitol, DSFF? 1945. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.10.2013 - 5:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 44andJoe, I know what you mean. Uuuuuuuuugly... what part of Florida are you in? DSFF, have you ever seen the Bank of America tower in Orlando? We have one of the man-part buildings too. 1946. David posted: 01.10.2013 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, here's good news and bad news. The good news: Those of you who despise Michael Waltrip will not have to put up with him for the entire Daytona 500 broadcast, for he will not be in the booth. The bad news: Instead, he will be on the track racing. Michael Waltrip will pilot the #30 Toyota for Swan Racing in the 2013 Daytona 500. So, where does that leave David Stremme? 1947. Smiff_2 posted: 01.10.2013 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that, David, but where does that leave the 55 car? Is Vickers gonna run it or Martin? I doubt Martin would volunteer to pick up a plate race, of all things, but I don't see how he could turn down one last opportunity to make up for the heartbreak he suffered in '07. I'm *assuming* it'll end up being Vickers. 1948. David posted: 01.10.2013 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not only that, David, but where does that leave the 55 car? Is Vickers gonna run it or Martin? I doubt Martin would volunteer to pick up a plate race, of all things, but I don't see how he could turn down one last opportunity to make up for the heartbreak he suffered in '07. I'm *assuming* it'll end up being Vickers." It will be Martin. Waltrip was never slated to run the #55 in the 500. Martin still wants to win the Daytona 500. The only difference in the #55's schedule from last year is that Vickers will run the Kentucky race instead of Waltrip (for obvious reasons). 1949. Paul posted: 01.10.2013 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually like this move by Swan Racing. Hiring Michael Waltrip will provide them with extra sponsorship in the highest-paid race of the year. Add-in Michael's proven ability to still compete on restrictor plate tracks from his near-win at Talladega last fall, and I see Swan Racing qualifying for the Daytona 500 from the duel race and doing well in the race as well. As for Michael not being a part of the broadcast booth, in the spring race last year, he provided occasional commentary from his car via the in-car radio transmission and allowed the two Waltrips to do their thing and promote themselves during a race, and I expect the same thing to happen in the Daytona 500. Also, Jeremy Mayfield has expressed regrets about how he handled his 2009 suspension from NASCAR, and is open to participating in NASCAR's "Road to Recovery" program, so long as it is "tailor-made for Jeremy Mayfield" (take that statement as you may). Dave Moody wrote an interesting blog about this issue, saying that Mayfield's sudden openness to re-joining NASCAR is either due to Mayfield's inability to handle the non-public life after NASCAR and this is his last effort at getting back into the spotlight, or this is a sincere sign of remorse. I sure hope it's the latter of the two, because as someone who used to be a Jeremy Mayfield fan, I would like nothing better than to see him own up to his mistakes and get his life back on track, and I think this (if he's really remorseful and not just acting like it) is a great first step on his part. 1950. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.10.2013 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I must say Brian handled himself really well (wow, I complimented him). Mayfield just needs to go away. He had his chance, got busted, and instead of taking his medicine and being graceful like Dinger, he filed a bunch of bs lawsuits, then got busted with illicit meth. He doesn't deserve a secnod chance. 1951. 44andJoe posted: 01.10.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >what part of Florida are you in? Up in what the St. Joe Company wanted to have renamed "Florida's Great Northwest" because they didn't want to be associated with panhandlers. 1952. cjs3872 posted: 01.10.2013 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those that didn't watch the coverage of the test at Daytona on SPEED today, I'm somewhat worried about the quality of racing that might be taking place at Daytona during SpeedWeeks, because the Toyotas that drafted could not stay close for very long, and here were times that one car could actually break about five car lengths away on it's own. I haven't seen that at Daytona in years. One reason is the short rear spoiler. Because of the short rear spoiler (3.5 inches tall), the trailing cars won't have much to draft off of, and it could be somewhat like late racing was prior to 1993, which was dull and lifeless, for the most part. For those that might not remember (or would like to forget), the plate races back then was so spread out that it was not uncommon for fewer than 10 cars to be on the lead lap when the race ended, and in the July race at Talladega in 1992, there were only THREE cars on the lead lap at the finish, and from 1990-'92, the number of cars that finished on the lead lap in the Daytona 500 were seven, five, and five respectively. To put that in perspective, the last unrestricted Daytona 500 had 11 cars on the lead lap at the finish and 14 on the lead lap until the final round of pit stops, despite having only 15 laps of caution the entire race. In other words, we may see the most lifeless Daytona 500 in more than a decade, because if there are long periods of green flag racing, the field might get spread out like you wouldn't believe. Now I'm in favor of having the field spread out because it will penalize those that lay back and reward the best teams and drivers, and decrease the possibility of a field-decimating crash, but I'm not sure I like the prospects of seeing a Daytona 500 similar to most of the ones from 1995-2003, and if no significant changes are made, that's what you're going to see, a lifeless Daytona 500 without much passing up front because the cars just can't close up. I just hope it's not as bad as it looked today when the Toyotas drafted. And that on top of the relatively lifeless racing for most of last year is the last thing NASCAR needs. If it's that kind of race, let's hope for a great story in victory lane or a great duel between titans, because that's the only thing that saved a number of those Daytona 500s from 1995-'99 from being utterly and totally forgetable, and this year's 55th edition has the possibility of being a lifeless race, if what I saw today becomes standard for SpeedWeeks this year. 1953. 18fan posted: 01.10.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, from what I saw the cars did seem to be able to pass pretty well and the cars sucked up pretty well, so it may not be quite as bad as you say. 1954. cjs3872 posted: 01.11.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing I'm worried about the most is the way one car could just get four or five car lengths ahead. Certainly what's been done to the radiators has something to do with that because of the cooling needed, but also the smaller spoilers has something to do with it as well. Remember that with the smaller spoilers, the smallest since the early 90s, the effect of the draft is greatly reduced because the cars are not punching nearly as big a hole in the air. Combine that with the fact that the cars themselves are sleeker aerodynamically, and I think it will be excruciatingly difficult for passing to take place because the cars just won't stay close together, and for passing to take place, the cars actually have to run close together. What I think we might see, especially if the temperatures are anywhere near what they were today is that we could see a number of 3-5 car breakaways, and the cars have more horsepower, so they may be able to break away from the field without even using the tandem draft, which seems to be a thing of the past. Another thing is that the Toyotas running in the draft actually did not produce speeds that were that much faster than the single car runs. The fastest drafting speeds were 195 and the fastest single car runs were "only" 192-193. That's not a very big difference at all, which means that if 3-5 cars got out front, they could stay there a while, and there would be no passing because in competition mode, there would be very little reason to try to pass, and if someone tried to pass, they would get blocked. In short, this could be as dull a SpeedWeeks as there have been in many years from a competition standpoint. 1955. MStall41 posted: 01.11.2013 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With the two car tandem effectively dead, it would be wise of NASCAR to maybe bring back the wicker bills to foster better suckup in light of what cjs mentioned. 1956. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.11.2013 - 6:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As we dive deeper into the least competitive era in NASCAR. People may say "Look at how many different winners NASCAR has each year." Yeah, tough poop. That doesn't change the fact that the races are less competitive than IndyCar. 1957. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.11.2013 - 7:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's hoping you are wrong CJS otherwise all of the drivers are going to pay. 1958. Jim Davis posted: 01.11.2013 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Noting that Tony Stewart and Danica Patrick have declined offers to run the Indy 500 this year someone compiled a top 10 list of drivers who they would like to see at Indy. http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/indy500/news/show/52008-ten-drivers-iand-39-d-like-to-see-in-the-2013-indy-500/ Note number 3 on the list. Although the suggestion is partly facetious, let's assume that there was a Indy car owner willing to give Long a ride at the Indy 500. Does she just have to qualify on time to make the 500 or does she need a license based on previous experience like NASCAR requires? Would her stock car experience be sufficient for an IRL debut at the 500? If the IRL was fine with Milka Duno competing all those years the requirements couldn't be too onerous but I'm not up on IRL rules. 1959. Paul posted: 01.11.2013 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just saw a picture of Marcos Ambrose sporting a full beard, and it looks awesome! He just gained some serious "cool points" from me. I wonder if he'll continue to sport it in two weeks when he competes in the Rolex 24 at Daytona, driving for Michael Shank Racing. Kurt Busch will compete in the three Nationwide restrictor plate races for Phoenix Racing, and Austin Dillon will run a couple Cup races for Phoenix in 2013 as well. 1960. cjs3872 posted: 01.11.2013 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, we've seen one instance of a car nearly losing control (1-McMurray) and another instance of a car actually losing control (16-Biffle) due in my mind to the shorter rear spoilers. The cars just are not handling well enough to stay in packs without risking losing control because of the shorter spoilers. I think more than ever now that if NASCAR doesn't increase the size of the spoilers, that the racing will not be very good come SpeedWeeks. After all, when we see drivers not being able to keep the cars straight when they're not that close to each other, when they get into a competitive situation, if things don't change, the racing is not going to be good at all. Again, I go back to before NASCAR increased the size of the spoilers for 1993, and prior to that, racing at Daytona and Talladega just wasn't that good, and if changes aren't made, I think this year's Daytona 500 may resemble those bores from 1989-'92. 1961. Scott B posted: 01.11.2013 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm kind of puzzled by the Austin Dillon & Phoenix Racing reports. Finch's team is in the Chevy family, but their ties are much closer with the Hendrick camp than with RCR. Childress would certainly have other options to give AD some seat time. 1962. cjs3872 posted: 01.11.2013 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the "big one" strikes in a TEST, courtesy of one Dale Earnhardt, Jr. How ridiculous is it that someone gets impatient and bumps someone, something nobody else was doing, in a TEST! And the result was 10 or 11 wrecked cars. That's just utterly ridiculous. And for someone as experienced as Dale, Jr. to start something like that is just as bad, because he should know better. If someone like Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., a rookie, though he'll not be a Daytona 500 rookie, started that, it would be bad, but for an experienced driver such as Dale, Jr. to start a melee like that is absurd. 1963. murb posted: 01.11.2013 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Haven't seen the wreck yet CJS. Just turned the tv on. I'm interested to see what happened. However, I did watch the Toyotas drafting yesterday, and I actually liked what I saw. Hopefully it will get a bit better as the guys get more used to the cars. 1964. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Playoff football plus a weekend off to not even think about work plus cold beer: should be a fun weekend. Luckily they scheduled the Broncos/Ravens game first so we can get this whole "Peyton vs RayRay, two legends, two of the very best ever going head to head" garbage over with. Then we can focus on real football. And I can hopefully drink enough beer to forget that I wish BOTH Baltimore and Denver would lose. And for the record, why isn't the main story of that matchup "can Peyton avoid his 8th one and done in 12 playoff appearances"? Do you realize if he loses that will be 75% of his playoff appearances he couldn't even win a game? And in the event of a Broncos loss, that will be his fourth first round bye home loss, his fifth home one and done, and sixth one and done loss to a team with a worse record (who can forget his 12-4 Colts losing to the 8-8 Chargers in the Wildcard round?). Yep, two guys with long careers and one Super Bowl ring apiece battling it out. For some reason the hair on my neck isn't standing up. Luckily, for the Pats/Texans game, the main story is what truly matters: wins and losses. Mainly, if the Pats win, Brady will pass Montana for most playoff wins ever by a QB. And if he wins the Super Bowl he will match Montana for most Super Bowl rings for a QB with 4 (Bradshaw too, but let's face it, The Steel Curtain carried him to those first two). Luckily, nobody will try to claim Brady is better than Joe Cool, he has TWO Super Bowl losses where Eli Manning was more clutch than him, making the late game passes that Brady was missing. And to put this "one and done" thing in perspective, specifically getting a first round bye, and a second round home game which you lose, something Peyton has already done 3 times, Brady and Montana only did this once apiece. The 2009 depleted Pats were wiped out by the Ravens, and in 1987 Montana laid an egg at Candlestick against that 80's Vikings team that almost always made the playoffs, and the Niners were soundly defeated. That was truthfully Joe's only home playoff loss. He is also credited with losing the 1990 NFC title game in Candlestick, but San Fran was up 13-6 over the brutal Giants defense of Parcells, Belichick, LT, and others when he got sacked from behind giving him a concussion, two cracked ribs, and a torn throwing arm ligament that kept him out of action for two years. After that, Steve Young stepped in and did what Steve Young does in NFC title games: lose. That's his loss in my book. He lost the NFC title game at Candlestick in '90, '92, and '97. He also lost the NFC title game in Dallas in '93 despite Aikman going down with a concussion. 1965. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2013 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here's hoping you are wrong CJS otherwise all of the drivers are going to pay." Otherwise he will get on a plane wearing a robe and nothing else then expose himself to female flight attendants like Ric Flair did in 2002 :) Seriously, that whole flight is one of the funniest things I have ever heard of. 1966. cjs3872 posted: 01.11.2013 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, how can you call what happened in the 1990 NFC Championship game after Joe Montana was injured Steve Young's loss? He didn't fumble the ball away. Roger Craig fumbled the ball away deep in SF's end of the field. He would have fumbled regardless of who the QB was. Young had nothing to do with that. And I don't think they would've beaten Buffalo in the Super Bowl the following week without Montana anyway, and the injury that Montana suffered in that game actually was what ended his 49er career, because he suffered the elbw injury that sidelined him for 1991 on that play, and in 1992 the correct decision to replace Montana was made, because it gave them four or five more great seasons, including their 1994 Super Bowl season. I believe they would have lost both title games to the Cowboys regardless of who the QB was, because the Cowboys were simply better. As for Peyton Manning's failures, the one I don't put on him was the one you mentioned, the 2008 post-season game in San Diego where the Chargers beat the Colts 23-17 in OT. Manning did his job, giving the Colts the lead late. Unfortunately, their defense couldn't hold it, giving up the game-tying score at the end of regulation and Manning never saw the ball in OT. The failures in 1999, 2005, and especially 2007 fall on Manning unquestionably, but I won't put the 2008 failure on Manning because he did his job, but the defense couldn't do theirs. How Manning could not beat a Chargers team without both LaDainian Tomlinson and Philip Rivers, both of whom were injured in that playoff in the RCA Dome, is still beyond me. And now Manning gives his Broncos home field throughout tha AFC Playoffs, but likely won't even be able to use it because of the bitter cold that's predicted for the game against the Ravens, because I think his passes may very well flutter in the 15 degree temperatures that are expected, while Joe Flacco's stronger arm may allow him to throw deeper passes and passes that could pierce the cold that Manning won't be able to throw. In fact, I'm predicting a Ravens win just on that factor alone, and possibly even a convincing win. And murb, Dale, Jr. was trying to push Marcos Ambrose down the backstretch and got him out of shape, causing that huge pile-up, something that was completely unnecessary in a test session. 1967. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.11.2013 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sad news this evening as motorcyclist Thomas Bourgin lost his life at the Dakar Rally in a collision with a Chilean fuzz-mobile. 1968. David posted: 01.11.2013 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been reading race comments as I calculate the standings for my points system (I'm up to 2008 now), and in one post, DaleSrFanForever writes, and I quote, "Mikey [Waltrip] has very little [talent]. And it appears his business sense is even worse. I doubt MWR will see the end of the decade as a Cup organization." Funny how things change over the years. 1969. Paul posted: 01.11.2013 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mikey's still got seven years to screw everything up before the decade is over. It's best not to count your chickens before they hatch. As for the NFL playoffs, I'm pulling for the Texans to beat the Patriots and the Seahawks to beat the Falcons (although it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if Tony Gonzalez could get one step closer to a Super Bowl ring, as he more than anyone deserves one). But honestly, I don't want any of the other four teams to win. I think me not wanting the Packers to win is self-explanatory, but I don't want either the Broncos or Ravens to win because of the reasons that DSFF explained above, not to mention that Peyton and Ray-Ray combine for 200% of their teams' success this season (never mind the fact that Ray missed more than half the season this year). I also don't want the 49ers to win because I've grown tired of Jim Harbaugh's antics, and it seems that he takes away too much attention from his team, a la Rex Ryan (how that guy is still with the Jets while his entire coaching staff got fired is mind-boggling). Plus, what kind of lesson did he teach young football players in this day and age where concussions are such a big issue by benching Alex Smith following a concussion? Smith was ranked 3rd in the league in quarterback rating, led the league in completion percentage, and had a 19-5-1 record as a starter since 2011, and lost his job after he basically de-activated himself for two games after sustaining a concussion. What a two-faced league this has turned out to be when it comes to concussions. If you have a concussion, you had better sit out until you're healthy, but there's a good chance you'll be replaced by the time you're healthy. And it's funny that I feel this way because when they were coaching college football, I preferred Harbaugh to Pete Carroll because Carroll coached the mighty USC and Harbaugh's Stanford team finally added some competition to the Pac-10 championship race. Now it's just the opposite, as I love what Carroll has done with the Seahawks and would love nothing better than to see him beat Harbaugh in the NFC Championship Game. 1970. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2013 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, my reasoning is simple: they scored 13 points with Joe and none with Steve. Yes Craig's fumble was a backbreaker, but 13-0 still. And for the record, Michael Waltrip Racing didn't make it to the end of last decade. Robert Kauffmann had to buy a majority stake in the team and bail them out of $20 million of debt. He is making all the decisions over there. It is MWR in name only. Mikey had a grand vision for his team and idea in the world how to execute it. Kauffmann is the one who made it all happen. Luckily he seems to enjoy laying in the background whiile Mikey does what he enjoys: hogging all the credit and takes as much of the limelight as he can possibly get. It works well for them. 1971. Paul posted: 01.11.2013 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, what do you think of the Browns hiring former Panthers offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski? His record with the Panthers looks pretty impressive as he took a Panthers offense that was ranked last in points and total offense in 2010, to a team that was ranked 5th in points and 7th in total offense in 2011, before regressing this past season. And that "Plane Ride From Hell" was a pretty hilarious and infamous event in WWE history. As a matter of fact, that incident happened on the very day that the WWE was forced to change their name from World Wrestling Federation to World Wrestling Entertainment on May 5, 2002. So in essence, the plane ride that featured such hilarious things as Ric Flair strutting down the isle of the plane wearing nothing but a robe, Michael Hayes being doped out of his mind and almost pissing on CEO Linda McMahon because he thought he was in the bathroom, Hayes getting knocked out by Bradshaw and then having his hair cut by X-Pac while knocked out, and Curt Hennig ramming Brock Lesnar into the emergency exit door, kicked off the WWE. I consider that to be the official end of the Attitude Era as the WWE immediately banned all liquor on commercial flights from that day on. If you know anything about the WWE during that '97-'01 period, alcohol was frequently seen and used both on-screen and off-screen, most notably by arguably the greatest WWE wrestler of all-time, Stone Cold Steve Austin. So for WWE to ban the use of alcohol on commercial flights on the very day that they were ordered by the court to change their name, I consider May 5, 2002 as the day that the Attitude Era officially ended. 1972. cjs3872 posted: 01.11.2013 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But DSFF, when Young got into the game at that point, he didn't have to lead them to a score, as they were ahead in the final minutes. If I remember right, Craig's fumble occurred on Young's only series of the game, and they were leading 13-12, so all they had to do was hold on to the ball, and they would have won, but Craig fumbled, the Giants took over and kicked the winning FG as time ran out, so Young never did get a chance to lead a game-winning drive of his own. Actually, a similar thing happened in the AFC Championship Game a year later between the Broncos and Bills when John Elway got knocked out of the game late and it was up to Gary Kubiak to lead a GW drive in Buffalo, but couldn't do it. And I still maintain that, as hot as the Bills were (95 points in two games), that the 49ers would not have won the Super Bowl with Young a week later, and the legacy of those Bills teams would definitely have been different. 1973. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.11.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I bet you everyone's heart skipped a beat the second Lesnar and Henning slammed into the emergency exit door I wonder what would have happened if that door hadn't held. That whole incident was full of hilarity and insanity I'm surprised no one has tried to make a movie regarding that situation. 1974. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wish Chudzinski good luck in Cleveland. The truth is the Panthers are never going to do anything of consequence as long as Cam Newton is our QB unless he does a LOT of growing up. 1975. David posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mikey's still got seven years to screw everything up before the decade is over. It's best not to count your chickens before they hatch." That comment was made in the last decade, 2001-2010. "And for the record, Michael Waltrip Racing didn't make it to the end of last decade. Robert Kauffmann had to buy a majority stake in the team and bail them out of $20 million of debt." Yes, but I believe that happened before you made that comment, which was in 2008. I think Kauffman bought into the team in late 2007, didn't he? 1976. Paul posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Hennig/Lesnar scuffle was totally blown out of proportion. A commercial airplane's cabin is pressurized at high altitudes, making it almost (if not) impossible to open the emergency passenger doors when the plane is high in the air. It's a shame that that incident between them happened because it resulted in Hennig getting fired once the plane landed, and then nine months later he died of an apparent drug overdose because he couldn't adjust to life without wrestling and being "on the road" with the other wrestlers. There were actually two flights coming home from Britain that day, each carrying about half of the crew with them. Apparently Vince McMahon and Kurt Angle held a (no joke) take-down tournament in the aisle-way on the first flight and weren't punished for it, but on the second flight Hennig and Lesnar (both were great amateur wrestlers) started to wrestle each other and had a run-in with the emergency door, and Hennig gets fired as a result. My guess is that WWE officials were so outraged at what happened on that flight and how little order was given by the road agents (former wrestlers who work behind-the-scenes) that they had to find a few scapegoats, and it turned out that Hennig and Scott Hall (who was also very disruptive on the flight home) were fired as a result. Both of them were past their prime and weren't in a serious program on TV, so it didn't really affect WWE to let those two guys go. And it is worth noting that a lot of the stuff that happened on that flight was common on commercial airplanes with wrestlers on them. I've heard stories of wrestlers lighting up joints and setting each other's shoelaces on fire on planes from back in the day. But as X-Pac explained in a shoot interview a few years ago, those were in the pre-9/11 years when you could get away with more misbehaving on the planes. And now with more airplane regulations than ever before, social media, and a "corporate-mantra" that goes with pretty much any company nowadays, I think the "Plane Ride From Hell" was the last of its kind. 1977. Paul posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That comment was made in the last decade, 2001-2010." Technically the last decade was 2000-2009, as we are currently in the fourth year of the 2010-2019 decade. 1978. David posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another thing about this MWR discussion. The main reason that Waltrip even needed an investor was because of the 2007 Daytona 500 debacle, in which they got hit with a back-breaking fine (for an upstart team) for an "unknown substance" in the fuel cell. I do not believe that that was intentional. They still have not specified what that substance was. Contrary to popular belief, it was not rocket fuel. You could argue that had the fine and suspensions not occurred, Waltrip would have run the team into the ground anyway. But we will never know, will we? 1979. David posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Technically the last decade was 2000-2009, as we are currently in the fourth year of the 2010-2019 decade." Actually, since there was no year 0, the first decade in A.D. was 1-10, the second was 11-20, and so on. 1980. murb posted: 01.11.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hennig getting fired once the plane landed, and then nine months later he died of an apparent drug overdose because he couldn't adjust to life without wrestling" I remember Henning's death very distinctly, because I was at Raw at the Staples Center in Los Angeles the day he died. I still remember them putting up the memorial graphic announcing that he died. It was very eerie and shocking. 1981. Paul posted: 01.12.2013 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hennig was one of the greats that deserved a WWE World title reign during the '90-'92 period, but for some reason never won the belt. I've heard that he was supposed to win the 1990 Royal Rumble and then win the World title soon after, but instead Hogan (who was already the World champ) won the match, but not before he no-sold Hennig's finishing move (Perfect-Plex) and eventually tossed him out like a rag doll (or in other words, business as usual for the Hulkster). Oh well, he still held the AWA Championship for over a year (which to us Minnesotans is just as, if not more, valuable than the WWE World title), and did so by beating one of the all-time greats, Nick Bockwinkel (I thank WWE for inducting him into their Hall of Fame in 2007, even though he never wrestled for them). And even though he isn't nearly as good as his father was, I'm glad that WWE employs Joe Hennig and has him wrestle on the lower-card matches. I'm pretty big on traditions, and I'm glad that a Hennig is still wrestling for WWE, even if it isn't the original. 1982. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The problem is Mikey basically planned to make his team Hendrick Motorsports from Day One with the huge shop, 3 full time sponsored teams, and basically an entire empire. He had everything built but didn't have the resources to pay it off. He pretty much had to hand the team over to Kauffmann to stay afloat. He knew he was in trouble for the '07 Daytona 500, hence the rocket fuel. And anyone who believes it was what Mikey claims, one rogue crew member, probably also believes the Magic Bullet Theory (can of worms alert!). I also liked Curt Henning. He was great as a character and in the ring. And yes, like so many others, he was held back by Hogan. It is insane the way he went about business. And he wore the WWF out quick by always winning. When it is 1991 and you lose the title to The Undertaker, a new bad guy who is initially billed as nothing but bad, and the crowd erupts (partly cause they were so damn sick of Hulkamania, and partly cause Taker was cool as hell) you know you have hung around too long. And let's face it, it was Ric Flair who carried the WWF from late '92 thru WrestleMania 8. What he did in the '92 Royal Rumble was simply awesome, and his angle and match with Macho Man and Mrs Elizabeth kicked the shit out of the crappy Hogan/Sid deal. The match sucked, the ending sucked (completely botched, saved from total disgrace by none other than Harvey Whippleman). 1983. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) * Flair carried it from late '91 thru WM8. 1984. Paul posted: 01.12.2013 - 2:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Undertaker was cool as shit! He's also my all-time favorite wrestler. Whether he was a good guy or a bad guy, Deadman or American Badass, putting people in body bags or setting his half-brother on fire, he was simply too cool to dislike. I think he always wanted to be a heel (bad guy) because of his gimmick and his promo style, but he got such a great ovation and response from the fans that he almost had to be a babyface (good guy). And to think that he wrestled full-time for the better part of 26 years, with 19 1/2 of them being in WWE, before he reduced his schedule significantly due to injuries and age in May 2010 at the age of 45 is one of the most amazing acts of longevity in the history of sports (I include pro wrestling in the sports category on certain issues). I know I've said that Steve Austin was a lot like Dale Earnhardt in terms of being the #1 guy and a badass, but I think Undertaker is a lot more like Earnhardt because although he was never truly the #1 guy (although he did have several stints at the top of the company while World champion), he was certainly a badass, a locker room leader, an easy-going quieter guy whose respect had to be earned by the younger wrestlers, and managed to have an almost 20-year run as being one of the top guys in the company in arguably the most physical business in the world. Hell, I've heard from former WWE employees that he has more pull than Vince McMahon when it comes to making decisions regarding the company, and that he, Triple H, and Shawn Michaels had complete control over their program for the past two Wrestlemanias (Undertaker even went as far as to demand that Jim Ross do the play-by-play for his most recent match last April, which WWE happily obliged, because he knew that J.R. would properly call his and Triple H's match). Just like how Earnhardt was NASCAR during it's greatest period (even during Gordon's reign at the top), Undertaker was the WWE during the majority of Vince McMahon's tenure as chairman of the company. He was there when it was at its lows ('90-'96), its highs ('97-'02), its regression period ('03-'07) and its slow descent into what has ultimately become a PG-rated kids program over the past few years (although he has been injured for the majority of that period). I would argue that The Undertaker is the greatest wrestler of all-time, and it has to do with his ability to have a great match against almost anybody, the evolution of his character over the years and how he's always managed to change with the times, and his longevity at being one of WWE's top wrestlers. Add-in his unprecedented 20-0 record at Wrestlemania and his reputation of being the leader of the locker room, and I think hands down nobody touches The Undertaker on the wrestling totem pole. 1985. 44andJoe posted: 01.12.2013 - 4:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rumour mill: RCR talking to Dodge. What Were They Thinking mill: the new cars look JUST like the old Goody's Dash cars from the side. ICK. 1986. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know that Superbowl XXV is the worst loss in the history of the Buffalo Bills but another infamous defeat that the Bills endured was the 1999 AFC wildcard game against the Titans known as the Music City Miracle. 1987. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well if by some dumb luck the door had not held everyone in the plane would had gotten a much bigger draft then what we are probably going to see at this years Daytona 500. 1988. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 9:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Lol? Let's be honest. Linda McMahon is the gremlin that Shatner encountered at 20,000 ft. 1989. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 10:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And anyone who believes it was what Mikey claims, one rogue crew member, probably also believes the Magic Bullet Theory (can of worms alert!)." OK, excuse me if I seem gullible. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "Magic Bullet Theory"? Was it Bobby Allison's claim that one of Junior Johnson's crew sabotaged his car with a bullet in the 1982 finale at Riverside, preventing him from winning the championship? 1990. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, you got it all right except that it was 1983 at Riverside, and Allison came back to win the championship. Come on, people? Linda McMahon = the terror at 20000 ft. Anyone? 1991. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 10:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, you got it all right except that it was 1983 at Riverside, and Allison came back to win the championship." That's funny, I thought the "sugar in the gas tank" incident occurred in '83. 1992. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I checked. You're right and I'm wrong. And don't forget the other accusations... all 23599 of them. 1993. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Forgive my ignorance, but what is the "Magic Bullet Theory"?" The government's claim about JFK's assassination. According to them, Oswald took three shots from the depository, the first missed the vehicle entirely, the second was the "Magic Bullet" which somehow went through JFK's throat, the seat in front of him, through the Texas governor's back and right lung and chest, through his wrist before finally settling in his knee, then the third was the shot to JFK's head. There are probably 1,000 (this is no exaggeration) theories on what actually happened and this is most likely the most debated topic in America over the last 50 years, hence my "can of worms" alert. Anyways, of all the theories about this that aren't totally out in left field (this narrows it down to about 50 which is also not an exaggeration), the Magic Bullet, along with the corresponding theory that Oswald was the only shooter and took those three shots, is the least believed one. 1994. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I would like to make comment #1994 in respect for the year 1994 when Dale Earnhardt tied one of The King's "unmatchable" records and won his 7th championship. Best. Ever. Period. Point. Blank. 1995. cjs3872 posted: 01.12.2013 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Except DSFF, that there were at least four shots fired on that horrible day in 1963, and maybe even five, and as the late, great Peter Jennings once said, four shots equals two guns or shooters and two guns or shooters equal a conspiracy. 1996. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I subscribe to the "at least 7" theory. 1997. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man is this Denver-Baltimore game great so far! 1998. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay its time for manning to do what he does best and that is choke in the playoffs. 1999. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In 1998, Jeff Gordon has one of the greatest single seasons of all time, and possibly the greatest of the Modern Era, winning 13 races, finishing in the top five 26 times and the top ten 28 times in 33 races (percentages of 78.79 and 84.85, respectively), averaging a finish of 5.7 (88.82 percent beat), and leading 21.39% of the races (on average). His #24 team was relevant 93.94% of the time (for the record, I consider a 94 percent relevance or higher to be an elite team performance). As for Gordon himself, he registered an exorbitant 6.424 PEER. 2000. cjs3872 posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure there were that many shots DSFF, but there were more than three, and that means a conspiracy. But I want to respond to your "1994" comment, DSFF. 1994 was actually a year of greatness in sports. Not only did Dale Earnhardt, Sr. tie the record for championships with seven, but Al Unser, Jr. also tied the modern record for IndyCar wins in a season with eight, the 49ers that year were one of the most dominant teams in history, Hakeem Olajuwon, perhaps the most forgotten about of the great centers in NBA history (I have him fourth-best all-time, behind only Kareem, Wilt, and Bill Russell), won the first of two consecutive titles that year with Houston. It wasn't as great as 1972 in sports (A's first of three consecutive World Series titles, Lakers 33-game winning streak and first title in Los Angeles, Dolphins perfect season, Penske's first Indy 500, A.J. winning the Daytona 500, etc.), but 1994 was a big year for great champions. Unfortunately, the MLB strike that cancelled the post-season cast a pall on that year in sports. And of course, May 29, 1994 is one of the most siginifacnt dates in motorsports history, as a major changing of the guard took place. After all, the Unsers had been a dominant force for more than a quarter century, as Al Unser, Jr.'s win at Indy that day was the ninth for the Unser family, two for Al, Jr. (1992, '94) to go with three for Bobby (1968, '75, '81) and four for Al, Sr. (1970-'71, '78', 87). Later that same night, Jeff Gordon, the benchmark for major American motorsports since, scored the first of a modern-day NASCAR record 87 wins (and counting) that night over Rusty Wallace, who was driving for Unser's car owner, Roger Penske, in the Coca-Cola 600. 2001. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dadgum. I missed by one comment. 2002. 18fan posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, what does it mean to be relevant in the statistical sense. 2003. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Awesome. David Smith has posted the sortable advanced statistics table for 2010 for the Cup series. One thing that surprised me was that Boris Said was serviceable (1.042 PEER) through six starts. 2004. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, relevance is the simplest "advanced" statistic. It measures the amount of times finished in the top half of the field as a percentage. For example a relevant finish in the Sprint Cup series would be 21st or better, since the field size is 43 cars (in the case of an odd field size, subtract one first, then take half of that). It may sound too simple, but it is effective at evaluating team performance from year to year. Even if a team has several different drivers over the course of, say, four years, it is still a great way to determine the quality of equipment and the crew chief's ability. 2005. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah, those early '70's Oakland A's team, possibly the most entertaining dynasty of all time. You want characters? They had them. Glad to see the appreciation for Hakeem. He is forgotten cause he was against much flashier centers who got all the publicity (Kareem, Parish, Robiinson, Shaq, Ewing). Peyton looks really uncomfortable in this cold, but lucky for him, Joe Flacco is on the other side of the ball and has already boned two wide open streakers to the end zone. With the exception of the '06 AFC title game, he has never beat anything more than a margainal QB in the playoffs. And Brady's recieving core in that game was thinner than Brad Keselowski. He has beat Jake Plummer twice, whoever was KC's QB in '03 and '06 (I honestly can't remember), an end of the line badly worn out Steve McNair, Flacco (twice if he keeps playing like he's been playing in this game), and Mark Sanchez. As for my at least 7, I think 3 came from up top behind (one hit the pavement causing a minor injury to a spectator, one hit the Texas governor, and one hit the windshield) and 4 from the grassy knoll from at least two shooters including the two that hit JFK. 2006. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 6:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872 had both the 1000th and 2000th posts on this thread. 2007. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes, how did I forget Rex Freaking Grossman for the Super Bowl? 2008. cjs3872 posted: 01.12.2013 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, not to toot my own horn, but I had the 1000th, 1500th, and 2000th post, though at the time I made that 2000th post, there were "only" 1997 up. And DSFF, Rex Grossman was hardly the worst QB ever to lead his team to a Super Bowl. In fact, statisticly speaking, Rex didn't play that badly, but his fumbles and interceptions in the rain cost his team a better chance to win. David Woodley (Super Bowl XVII) and Tony Eason (Super Bowl XX) were far worse than Grossman ever was. In fact, Kerry Collins and Chris Chandler were worse in their Super Bowl appearances than Grossman was, as was Rich Gannon, who was the MVP when he led the Raiders to Super Bowl XXXVII. And the worst QB in Super Bowl history in my view was Craig Morton because he didn't just have one clunker, he had TWO clunkers. 2009. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never said he was THE worst, but he is up there. This game is U-G-L-Y 2010. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Brady's fumble in 2001 was a Tuck, then that was a Tuck. Oh well, at least you can say the officials in this game have been consistently inconsistent. Both Denver and Baltimore have been victims of "really, THAT is a penalty?!?!?" plays and both have gotten away with blatent uncalled penalties. 2011. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its gonna come down to who will make a big play and who can avoid a big mistake in a high stakes playoff football game. Who do I trust less, Manning or Flacco? 2012. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And comment #2012 for Brad's championship is mine! 2013. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess the world did end on December 21st. "Gangnam Style" became the first video to reach a billion hits on the Internet on that day. Ouch. 2014. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where was the yellow on that play, damn it?! I guess the comments didn't end at 2000... 2015. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Fox ladies and gentlemen, John Fox. 2016. 18fan posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When Peyton took that knee, I immediately thought about what DSFF would said about John Fox. 2017. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denver dropped the ball on that. Did Peyton Manning of all people really just kneel like that? Pansy. Choker. Fill in your favorite insult that means coward. 2018. cjs3872 posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually think the conditions had a lot to do with Peyton kneeling like that. Remember that the Broncos missed a field goal earlier when their kicked about a foot behind the ball because he felt he had to kick it harder. After all, with a current temperature of 6 degrees and a wind chill below zero that you can't think about long field goals like you normally would. After all, a low kick can be blocked and potentially returned for a TD. I also think that the kneel-down says a lot about the hesitancy Peyton Manning has about throwing it deep with his arm and the conditions. After all, he hasn't thrown it deep once so far today. Of course, Joe Flacco, being youger and having a stronger arm, has no qualms about throwing it deep in today's cold. 2019. David posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And comment #2012 for Brad's championship is mine!" As it should be. Brad's 2010 PEER was 0.653. 2020. Paul posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Manning throws a pick! This game is just about over. 2021. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wwas talking about John Fox using the prevent defense to give up that OT clinching TD. That is the same thing that sunk my beloved Panthers in Super Bowl 38. Also, Peyton just threw a Favre. 2022. 18fan posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Peyton strikes again. 2023. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1999, 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012 2024. 18fan posted: 01.12.2013 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now if Brady loses this weekend will be perfect for me. 2025. cjs3872 posted: 01.12.2013 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And DSFF, let's not forget that Peyton threw the game-clinching interception that locked up Super Bowl XLIV for the Saints when he had his team driving for a possible game-tying TD in the fourth quarter. As much flak as he's gotten, I don't think Eli loses that game in OT like Peyton did, because Eli has always seemed to come through where Peyton hasn't. But remember that in 1999 and 2000, Peyton had Jim Mora, the worst post-season coach ever, as his head coach, and I don't blame him for this loss, nor do I for the 2008 loss at San Diego, because he did all he had to in order to win, but his defense gave it up. And I still say that the big difference in this game was the younger, stronger arm of Joe Flacco, given the weather the game was played in, because Flacco could throw deep, while Peyton simply could not. Peyton Manning never threw one deep pass the entire game. But Peyton's worst losses were in 2005 at home to the Steelers and to a banged-up Charger team two years later in a game he had no business losing. But you have a 35-28 lead, Baltimore the ball 77 yards away with 69 seconds left, needing a TD to tie, and no time outs, they should NEVER have even gotten pushed into overtime, especially with that 70-yard TD with 31 seconds left. That's not on Manning. Certainly, that last INT was all on him, but that game should never have been in OT to start with. Now here's an interesting fact. If Houston defeats New England tomorrow, as improbable as that would be, that would snap a nine-year streak, as it would be the first time in a full decade that the AFC Super Bowl representative would be QB'd by someone other than Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger. The last QB other than those three to take an AFC team to a Super Bowl was Rich Gannon ten years ago with the Raiders. 2026. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Recipe for a good day: 1) dook loses (Check!) 2) UNC breaks their skid (Check!) 3) Peyton gets bounced (Check!) 4) Realization Brad K is the reigning NASCAR champ (Check!) 5) A shootout in Candlestick bettween Green Bay and San Fran (so far Check!) 2027. 44andJoe posted: 01.12.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the whole JFK issue (the tangents we get on here! =P), I strongly reccomend reading this, which Greg Goebel of the excellent VectorSite compiled. http://www.vectorsite.net/twjfk.html Bottom line: No conspiacy whatsoever, everything explained by simple facts. 2028. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is another list. The Top 10 people I blame for Denver's loss: 10) Tim Tebow (you gleefully trade away God's favorite athlete to a dump like the New York Jets and expect no karmic retribution?) 9) John Elway (you trade for a noted career dome player and bring him to your team which plays outdoors in Colorado) 8) Billy Cundiff (if he doesn't choke away last year's playoffs for the Ravens, they keep him and he chokes this one away) 7) The Citizens of Colorado (with pot legalized you know half the Broncos were probably baked) 6) Tom Brady has lost to Eli Manning twice in the Super Bowl (this has nothing to do with this game, I just like to mention it) 5) Peyton Manning (back breaking pick, not enough plays made by a 4 time regular season MVP) 4) Champ Bailey (he got torched all day) 3) John Fox (taking a knee at the end when your QB is Peyton Freaking Manning?) 2) John Fox (too many runs right up the gut on 3rd and short when your QB is Peyton Freaking Manning) 1) John Fox (the freaking prevent defense in the end, the same thing that allowed Brady to pick the Panthers you were coaching apart in Super Bowl 38 after Kasey kicked it out of bounds, easily allowing him to get in range for the game winning field goal, THEN YOU DO IT AGAIN IN AN IMPORTANT GAME?) 2029. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh 44AndJoe you didn't! Prepare to be picked apart like a John Fox prevent defense. 2030. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.12.2013 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if the Niners would trade Kaepernick to us for Newton. Or is that just wishful thinking? Yeah, San Fran would pass on that like a QB on a John Fox prevent defense. 2031. Daniel posted: 01.12.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The rules for Daytona qualifying have been announced. Front row set on qualifying day. Top 15 in each duel make it. 33rd-36th set by qualifying speed. 37th-42nd set by owner's points from last year. 43rd-past champion List of drivers who would have made the 500 via the duels using this method, who didn't due to the top 35 rule: 2005: #7 Robby Gordon (Robby Gordon), #33 Kerry Earnhardt (Richard Childress), #55 Derrike Cope (Larry Hollenbeck) 2006: #10 Scott Riggs (Ray Evernham) & #78 Kenny Wallace (Furniture Row) 2007: #15 Paul Menard (Dale Earnhardt Inc.), #36 Jeremy Mayfield (Bill Davis), #49 Mike Bliss (Beth Ann Morgenthau) 2008: #84 A.J. Allmendinger (Red Bull) 2009: #09 Brad Keselowski (James Finch), #71 Mike Wallace (TRG), #87 Joe Nemechek (Joe Nemechek) 2010: Nobody 2011: #64 Derrike Cope (Larry Gunselman) 2012: Nobody 2032. Paul posted: 01.12.2013 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "whoever was KC's QB in '03 and '06 (I honestly can't remember)" Trent Green. "I wonder if the Niners would trade Kaepernick to us for Newton." Let's hope to God that never happens. The only thing worse than Scam Newton's cocky, arrogant, entitled, diva-like attitude when he's losing, would be if he keeps his attitude and brings it to a team that is capable of making it to the Super Bowl. Then he'll have a much larger platform for his attitude. "3) John Fox (taking a knee at the end when your QB is Peyton Freaking Manning?)" I felt the same way. As soon as I saw Manning take that knee, I just knew the Broncos were going to lose (I just didn't know it'd be after a typical Peyton Manning playoff INT). When you have a future Hall of Fame quarterback like Manning with two timeouts left on the clock and 26 seconds to gain 40 yards and be in field goal range, how can you be that conservative in your play-calling? I remember back in the 1998 NFC Championship Game, Vikings offensive coordinator Brian Billick had Randall Cunningham take a couple kneel-downs to end the first half, and we wound up losing that game in overtime. I know Gary Anderson gets all of the blame (as most kickers do) because of his missed field goal, but those kneel-downs at the end of the first half prevented what could have been a game-changing field goal that ultimately would have prevented overtime from occurring. "8) Billy Cundiff (if he doesn't choke away last year's playoffs for the Ravens, they keep him and he chokes this one away)" If Cundiff hadn't choked in last year's AFC Championship Game, he likely wouldn't have choked today either because he would have proven to not have the "choke gene" that other incredibly accurate kickers have had (like Mike Vanderjagt and Nate Kaeding). Notice that all three of those kickers have what I like to call "Peyton Manning Syndrome": Almost perfect in the regular season, but just can't/couldn't get the job done in the post-season (except for Manning's mostly flawless Super Bowl run in '06) 2033. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, as it pertains to Peyton Manning taking a knee with 31 seconds and two time outs and the game tied, I go back to this. The fact that Peyton Manning never once threw deep during the entire game points to the fact that he was incapable of doing so in the weather conditions the game was being played under. I had picked Baltimore to win the game, and that was the main reason why. Joe Flacco has the arm strength to throw deep, as he did numerous times, even in the cold weather, while Manning was clearly incapable of doing so. That's why they took a knee with 31 seconds left, because to score in that situation, you have to throw deep, and Manning was physically incapable of doing so in the single-digit temperatures the game was being played under, and Manning and John Fox knew it. Had Manning tried to throw deep, the ball would probably have fluttered, and he would likely have been intercepted four or five times. The Bronco coaching staff knew that, so they never once called a deep pass play, choosing instead to go with short and medium range passes. Also remember that Matt Prater had kicked a foot behind the ball on a 51-yard attempt because he tried to kick it harder because of the cold, which meant the Broncos simply had too far to go at the end of regulation, especially since Manning was incapable of throwing deep in the cold conditions. Had the Broncos had a QB capable of throwing deep, they might have taken a shot at it, but since Manning was incapable of throwing deep, that eliminated any chance of the Broncos doing anything in that situation. Fox did the right thing, because it was the only thing he could do under the circumstances. I think they might have tried on a warmer day when the range of Manning's passes wouldn't be so restricted. In short, this was a case of having home field advantage turning against the home team because they couldn't use it to their full advantage. 2034. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Let's hope to God that never happens. The only thing worse than Scam Newton's cocky, arrogant, entitled, diva-like attitude when he's losing, would be if he keeps his attitude and brings it to a team that is capable of making it to the Super Bowl. Then he'll have a much larger platform for his attitude. True. I guess we'll just keep $cam on our crummy little team :( "If Cundiff hadn't choked in last year's AFC Championship Game, he likely wouldn't have choked today either because he would have proven to not have the "choke gene" that other incredibly accurate kickers have had (like Mike Vanderjagt and Nate Kaeding)." Good point, I should have put whoever that receiver was last year that got stripped in the end zone, if he makes the catch we never realize how un-cutch he is, they keep him this year, then chokes. And it is funny reading the name of the Colts idiot kicker who got liquored up Mike Vanderjagt. That loudmouth was money in the regular season, but when came to the playoffs and hitting an important field goal ('00, '05) he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn or a gaping hole in a John Fox prevent defense. 2035. Paul posted: 01.13.2013 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I don't doubt that that's why the Broncos did what they did at the end of regulation given the circumstances they had been given (bad weather, Manning's inability to throw the deep ball, Prater's field goal miscue, etc.). But I just think that when you are facing a Ravens team that had the advantage given the weather with the strong-armed quarterback Joe Flacco, and you have a future Hall of Fame quarterback Peyton Manning with the football in his hands, you at least take a chance at driving down the field in the closing seconds with two timeouts at your disposal. Sure, Manning couldn't throw the deep ball, but he's still Peyton Manning, the 4-time NFL MVP and a Super Bowl MVP. You're telling me that he isn't capable of throwing a few slants or out-routes and work his team into field goal range with 31 seconds to go? And as for Prater missing a field goal earlier due to his foot hitting the turf, a possible missed field goal at the end of regulation is irrelevant because the game essentially starts over immediately afterwards when overtime begins. I would understand it if there was only a few seconds left and the Broncos had no timeouts because then the Broncos would be forced to have Manning throw it deep, but if there's 31 seconds to go and you have two timeouts and only need to go about 40 yards to get into field goal range, not to mention the fact that Peyton Manning is your quarterback, I don't see why they wouldn't at least take a chance at moving the ball down the field. Sure the weather was working against Manning during that game, but he's still one of the best quarterbacks in the league and I don't like the idea of playing conservatively like that with a superstar player like him. I think the last thing a team needs going into the offseason is a big "What if..." hanging over their heads, and after Manning threw the interception in overtime that ultimately gave the Ravens the win, that's exactly what the Broncos have thanks to their decision to kneel the ball with 31 seconds, two timeouts, 40 yards, and a future Hall of Fame quarterback at their disposal. 2036. Paul posted: 01.13.2013 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "True. I guess we'll just keep $cam on our crummy little team :(" Sorry for the indirect insult to your Panthers, DSFF. But don't worry, there's still hope that Rex Ryan's Jets come knocking on your door begging for the attention that $cam would bring to them to make up for their lack of Super Bowl appearances over the last 44 years (something that the Panthers can say they've done). Who knows, maybe you guys will get lucky and acquire Tebow or even McElroy in that trade :) I'll never understand why Mike Vanderjagt went from being money to broke once the playoffs came about. He is after all the only kicker in NFL history to be perfect during both the regular season and playoffs in one season, having done so in 2003, but he'll always be remembered for those epic misses in 2000 to the Jay Fiedler-led Dolphins team, and in 2005 to the Steelers with what may have been the widest indoor field goal in NFL history, with Vanderjagt throwing his helmet after the '05 miss to make that meltdown epic. I doubt this is true, but my dad always believed Vanderjagt missed the '05 field goal on purpose, possibly to spite Manning and his teammates. This is yet another conspiracy that has been mentioned on this page today, but it is funny how the very next season the Colts acquired Adam Vinatieri (arguably the greatest clutch kicker of all-time, thanks in part to the John Fox prevent defense) and went on to win the Super Bowl. Hmmm... 2037. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 2:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sorry for the indirect insult to your Panthers, DSFF." Lol no worries. We have been a mess ever since Jake hurt his elbow in '06 (shit, that was over six years ago!). It probably is best for the big picture of things if we keep $cam off a contender and our small stage. I know we are a small stage because only today are people realizing who John Fox really is. The things that he did to sink the Broncos and arguably the most paid attention to NFL QB (getting more and more conservative as the game goes on, not going for the kill when you are up, not making crucial adjustments like adjusting for a secondary that was getting torched all afternoon, playing not to lose, doing that prevent defense garbage) is the exact same thing he tortured us Panthers fans with for years. Its just that nobody outside the Carolinas knew or cared. The worst thing you can do as a John Fox coached team is take the lead. The best scenario for his teams is to pull out a late game winning drive cause only then will he take his foot off the brakes and it won't give the other team enough time to go against his awful prevent(ing a win) defense. That is what carried the '03 Cardiac Cats to the Super Bowl and last year's Denver Tebows to a playoff berth and overtime win. Peyton and John Fox are a terrible match. Fox needs a QB like Delhomme or Tebow. They won't dazzle you like Peyton, but they can keep it close in the end, then show some balls in the final minutes. With Peyton you are likely to get an early lead which is a recipe for disaster for a John Fox team. And cjs, like Paul, I agree Peyton has been quite ineffective going deep. But he is a veteran and a 4 time regular season MVP, and they had 2 timeouts and just 30 seconds. Go for it man! All you are telling your team as a coach is "I don't trust you guys to not shit the bed, let's just hang around and see if the other team screws up". It is demoralizing to a team, and as a fan of his team for a number of years, very demoralizing to a fanbase. Think of it this way, if you are a baseball pitcher, how would you rather lose a game: by giving up a walk off home run that lands in the parking lot behind the outfield bleachers or by a walk off bases loaded walk? I say make them take your best shot. I'd rather have the hitter knock it into next year than walk him. John Fox would give up the walk off walk. 2038. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2013 - 2:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I believe they needed at least 50 yards to get within makeable field goal range because we saw what happened late in the second quarter. And I don't totally agree that missing a field goal at the end of regulation is totally irrelevant. After all, if Prater had done the same thing and the kick ended up getting blocked, the Ravens could have returned it for TD, which would have ended the game anyway. After all, I remember the Broncos once winning a game against the Chargers in 1985 that way, with a blocked FG return for a TD in overtime. And as for your mentioning Mike Vanderjagt choking in the post-season, costing the Colts and Peyton Manning a chance at more Super Bowls, despite being the most accurate kicker in the regular season. Well, his successor as the most accurate kicker in the game, ex-Chargers kicker Nate Kaeding, may have been even worse in the post-season. He cost the Chargers two post-season games against the Jets with missed field goals, once in 2004, missing in overtime (the Jets won on the ensuing posession), and then in 2009, he missed three FGs in a bitter loss to the Jets after they had won 11 consecutive games to end the regular season in 2009, much like the Broncos did this year. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some athletes can handle the pressure of the big moment, and some can't, and Vanderjagt and Kaeding could not, while Justin Tucker proved that pressure seems to be nothing for him, as he kicked a GW 47-YD FG in overtime in single-digit temperatures as if it were an extra point. The playoffs will test one's ability to handle pressure, regardless of the sport. And let's remember that he also beat the Patriots early this season with a last-second FG, although whether or not he'd be able to do that with the Super Bowl at stake is another question. 2039. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 2:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "my dad always believed Vanderjagt missed the '05 field goal on purpose" I also doubt he would go that far, but that isn't a totally out in left field conspiracy theory. Something was always off with Vanderjagt. He pissed everybody off and even got Peyton Manning, who never says a bad thing about ANYONE publically, to slam him with his infamous "idiot kicker who got liquored up" quote. So I can't say "absolutely no way" to that theory like I can to a bullet from a bolt action rifle six floors up and one block away somehow causing more holes than a John Fox prevent defense. 2040. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 44AndJoe, I will read your link more in depth tomorrow, but I gotta be honest, the first section already has lost me, specifically with this quote" "Although the emergency room staff focused on the wound to JFK's throat, they soon realized that the president had a massive head wound and there was no saving him." Um, have you seen the Zapruder film? Half his head was blown off. I seriously doubt ANYONE could possibly miss that. Especially medical professionals. Yes it is true we are taught "airway, airway, airway, if you have no airway, you have no patient" there is no way they could not notice his head first. A good 1/4 of his cranium bones were missing, his scalp was peeled back, and brain matter was everywhere as a result from the impact of the blast. Actually, it is the REAL testimony and quotes of the Parkland Hospital staff in the immediate aftermath that are one big reasons I say it is a conspiracy. They clearly describe his throat wound and having an entry point on the front side of his throat and exit wound on the back. Yet the Warren Commission (the official government statement on the assassination) says differently. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. The Warren Commission can be picked apart more easily than a John Fox prevent defense. 2041. Paul posted: 01.13.2013 - 2:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I loved Jake Delhomme. He was such a genuine human being that never lost touch with his roots once he made it big in the NFL, plus he was a hell of a quarterback during his prime. His story is pretty amazing, being an undrafted free agent out of Louisiana-Lafayette and often only getting playing time in NFL Europe, being Aaron Brooks' backup for a few years with the Saints and always doing well in his limited action, and then leading the Panthers to the Super Bowl in his first year as a starter in '03. And even after suffering a career-altering elbow injury in '07, Delhomme was able to have one final strong year in '08 and led the Panthers to a 12-4 record (tied for the best in franchise history) and being the only team to be undefeated at home that year. Had he played in a bigger market, he would have made more Pro Bowls because he was very likable and didn't make many mistakes. A true "Rags to Riches" story right there, and it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. It's worth noting that Nate Kaeding was also named First-team All-Pro in '09, so his post-season choke against the Jets is especially surprising since he was the best kicker in the league that year. And going back to his '04 playoff choke against the Jets, the kicker on the other side of the ball was Doug Brien who did kick the game-winning field goal on the following possession, which may be the most surprising thing of all because Brien was an average kicker at best. I remember when he was with the Vikings in 2002 and he missed two extra points in six games, so needless to say, I was pretty stunned that an incredibly accurate kicker like Nate Kaeding would choke in the playoffs while someone as inaccurate as Brien would rise to the occasion and win the game for his team. Speaking of kickers, I would consider 2012 to be the "Year of the Kicker" in the NFL, considering how much of an impact rookie kickers Justin Tucker, Blair Walsh, and Greg Zuerlein had on their teams this season. Tucker has proven to have the "clutch gene" with his game-winning field goals against the Patriots and now against the Broncos. Walsh set the NFL record for most 50+ yard field goals in a season, kicked the game-winning field goal to send the Vikings to the playoffs, and was named First-team All-Pro. And Zuerlein, while struggling in accuracy, showed to have an incredibly powerful leg by kicking a 60-yard field goal against the Seahawks earlier this year, and became the first kicker in NFL history to kick a 60+ yard field goal and a 50+ yard field goal in a single game. I think all three are franchise kickers for their respective teams, and it's amazing that all three of those teams (Ravens, Vikings, Rams) each found a great kicker from this year's draft class, although Tucker actually went undrafted and was signed by the Ravens in the offseason. 2042. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.13.2013 - 7:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forget what I said about Payton being the Dale Jr of the NFL that Title belongs to Tony Romo. 2043. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.13.2013 - 7:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Payton Manning is the Dale Jr of the NFL. 2044. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.13.2013 - 8:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. never won a title though, so yeah Tony Romo. I think the Peyton Manning of NASCAR is Kurt Busch. He won one title, got tons of hype for it, but hasn't contended for a title since and normally self-destructs in the Chase. I think Tom Brady is the equivalent of Jimmie Johnson. Both won lots of titles in a short span because of a cheating coach and an awesome supporting cast, and both are revealed to be chokers when put on the spot. Kyle Busch = Philip Rivers Matt Kenseth = Brad Johnson 2045. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2013 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Come to think of it, yesterday's playoff game in Denver was full of ironies. The most significant of which is this. How often did we see Denver and John Elway rip the hearts right out of the old Cleveland Browns in the late 80s. They beat the Browns in three championship games, two of which were in stunning fashion. Let's not forget that the current Ravens is that very same Cleveland Browns organization from back then, when Art Modell, who passed away before this season started, was still the owner, and their best player was Ozzie Newsome, the same Ozzie Newsome that is currently the GM of the Ravens. And don't you think that Newsome was looking over at John Elway (Denver's GM) and thinking "we finally got you back for all those big games you beat us in", because what Joe Flacco did to the Broncos late in the fourth quarter was something that John Elway did to others so often, especially the Browns of Modell and Marty Schottenheimer. And if he was watching, you know that Schottenheimer was thinking that Elway and the Broncos finally got theirs for all that they put him through, both in Cleveland and later in Kansas City, and you know that Art Modell was smiling down for the same reason, as his orgainzation finally turned the tables on Elway and the Broncos after all these years, and 25 years after "The Fumble", no less. 2046. 18fan posted: 01.13.2013 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Smith tried everything he knows to lose that game, but somehow he managed to get the win. 2047. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This has been an outstanding weekend of football. 2048. 18fan posted: 01.13.2013 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brady looks in rhythm right now. 2049. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.13.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, You are off on calling Ozzie Newsome the best player on the Browns in the late 1980's. Ozzie was on the downside of his career in the late 1980's and his last great season was in 1985. Ozzie had last pro bowl season in 1985. Let's Remember "the drive" happened in January 1987 and that means Ozzie already starting to decline by the time "the drive" game happened. Ozzie Newsome's prime as a player was from 1979 to 1985. Ozzie was starting to be past his prime in 1986. Ozzie already was 30 years old when the Browns faced the Broncos in "the Drive" game. Ozzie already his final season over 40 catches in 1985 and that was the season before the 1986 season. The season the "drive" happened, Brian Brennan was the Browns leader in Receptions. Ozzie in 1986 had only 39 receptions compare to 62 in 1985. In 1987 in 13 games, he had 34 receptions. In 1988, Ozzie had 35 receptions. 1989, he only had 29 receptions at the age of 33. Ozzie was his best in the first part of the 1980's, not the 2nd half. If you don't believe me, look it up on Pro-football reference. Lets also remember that Ozzie was known as a pass catcher as a Tight End, not as a blocker as a Tight End. Ozzie was the main focus on the Browns in his prime. The best Brown player from the 3 AFC Championship games from the late 1980's was Kosar or Frank Minnifield. The best Receiving threat the Browns Had in the late 1980's was Webster Slaughter, or Reggie Langhorne. Ozzie was the best Receiving threat the Browns had from the 1979 season to 1985 and Ozzie can't be called the Browns best player as a result. I remembered the Cleveland Browns of the late 1980's and Ozzie was not the player you look at as a best playmaker on those Brown's teams. 2050. 44andJoe posted: 01.13.2013 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heh, well, we might have to agree to disagee DSFF. ;) 2051. cjs3872 posted: 01.13.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Packerfan4ver, I might have been mistated slightly on Newsome being the Browns' best player in the late 80s, but he was the only Hall of Famer on those teams, though there were others who you could make legitimate arguments for. And certainly Newsome was far from the best tight end in his prime, since his prime was during the Kellen Winslow years, and you could make a legitimate argument for Todd Christensen as being as good, as well. But the overall point in that comment was that it must have ben a great feeling for Newsome to have finally gotten the best of John Elway and the Denver Broncos, even if it wasn't as a player (both are GMs now), and for Joe Flacco to do it to Denver the same way Elway did it to Newsome's Browns teams had to be, in the minds of many of those old Browns players, as well as Marty Schottenheimer, their coach for those classics in 1986 and '87, poetic justice. 2052. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.13.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Marty Schottenheimer, I keep hoping eventually he will coach Peyton Manning. Then they can go 15-1 in the regular season, get home field advantage and a first round bye, play a team that finished 8-8, has 15 of their 22 opening day starters on injured reserve, grinds out an ugly Wildcard win that sees both their second and third string quarterbacks go down with playoff ending injuries, sign Jake Delhomme off his Louisiana horse farm on Tuesday, then go to Denver and somehow win. And Paul, I loved having Delhomme as our QB, especially from '03-'05 when he was healthy and a Top 10 QB. I hate the way he has turned into something of a punchline after some really bad performances after his elbow injuries. But he was just a cool dude and a hell of a story. He might not have been very physically gifted, but he had heart, determination, and balls the size of boulders. Let's not forget in his '03 and '05 playoff appearances he was 5-2, and of those two losses, one was against the Patriots in the Super Bowl where they may or may not have been illegally video taping the defensive signals, and the other was in Seattle, one of the toughest places to play, where they may or may not have been piping additional crowd noise in (this one is a lot harder to prove and I don't have enough proof to buy into it, but there are an awful lot of claims). This includes 4 road wins. Anyways, when it comes to playoff chops of Louisiana born QBs, the order is 1) Bradshaw (Eli before Eli, marginal regular season QB, money in the post season), 2) Eli, 3) Delhomme, and 4) Peyton. Give Jake 15 healthy seasons as well as Peyton's supporting cast (Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edgerrin James, Jake's college teammate Brandon Stokely, as well as Dwight Freeny, Robert Mathis, and Bob Sanders on defense) and Jake wins multiple Super Bowls. 2053. Paul posted: 01.13.2013 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was gone for most of today, so I only saw the first half of the Falcons/Seahawks game, and the 4th quarter of the Patriots/Texans game. From what I saw, the Falcons truly are a legit playoff team, and their offense, defense, and special teams all stepped it up today against a tough Seahawks team that I thought was good enough to make it to the Super Bowl. It sounds like head coach Mike Smith did everything he could to lose that game, but that's understandable because he worked alongside and then underneath Jack Del Rio for eight years with the Ravens and Jaguars, and Del Rio of course was John Fox's first (prevent) defensive coordinator with the Panthers in 2002, so Mike Smith is simply the victim of the conservative coaching tree. In spite of his head coach's weaknesses, Matt Ryan did a very nice job working down the field on that final drive with 26 seconds and two timeouts at his disposal, which was quite similar to the situation yesterday with Peyton Manning and the Broncos, and got in field goal range for Matt Bryant to kick the game-winning field goal. I know the situations between this game and the Broncos/Ravens game weren't the same, but they were similar enough that causes me to raise an eyebrow at the Broncos' conservative play-calling at the end of regulation. With this win, Matt Ryan gets his first career playoff win in his 5th season, Michael Turner gets his first playoff win since 2007 when his former team the Chargers beat the Peyton Manning-led Colts with Billy Volek as the quarterback, and future Hall of Famer Tony Gonzalez get his first career playoff win in his 16th season in the league. Congrats to all three of those players, as well as everyone else on that Falcon team that hadn't won a playoff game before, but especially to Tony Gonzalez, who can now check off "Win a playoff game" on his "Career to-do list". With this win, the NFC Championship will be contested between the Falcons and 49ers, neither of whom have made a Super Bowl appearance since Chris Chandler and Steve Young were their respective quarterbacks in 1998 and 1994, respectively. In fact, 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick hadn't even begun playing football when the 49ers were last in the Super Bowl (he was 7 at the time, but didn't play football until he was 9), and hadn't even started middle school yet when the Falcons were last in the Super Bowl. I don't know which Super Bowl-less streak will end next week in the NFC, but it should be a great match-up as neither team makes many mistakes, and the Falcons are this year's "Cardiac Birds", with 7 game-winning drives (including today) this season, so I think that game will remain close on the scoreboard the entire time. 2054. Paul posted: 01.13.2013 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the AFC Championship Game match-up, if this weekend was any indication, Joe Flacco is capable of stepping up and winning a game if his defense gives up a lot of points. I know that Brady has a much better playoff record than Manning, but he has shown to be a choker at times in the playoffs and has lost several playoff games that he should have won (lost to the Jake Plummer-led Broncos in '05, to the Peyton Manning-led Colts once he lost his clutch kicker Adam Vinatieri, to the Giants twice in the Super Bowl with Eli Bradshaw as the QB, to the Ravens in '09 after Joe Flacco threw for just THIRTY-FOUR YARDS, and to the Jets with Mark "butt fumble" Sanchez as the QB in 2010), so I think Brady is more than capable of losing to yet another inferior quarterback in the playoffs next week when he faces the Ravens for the 3rd time in the playoffs. And if not for Billy "I make every field goal, unless it's a game-winner to advance to the Super Bowl" Cundiff, Brady would probably have an 0-2 playoff record against the Ravens. Also, I think the Texans need to seriously consider pursuing another quarterback this offseason, or maybe even have a position battle between Matt Schaub and T.J. Yates. Yates was clutch last season, leading the Texans to a decisive win over the Bengals and coming up just short against the Ravens when their defense was still one of the best in the league. Schaub on the other hand could only lead the Texans to a 6-point win over the Bengals last week despite out-gaining the Bengals offense by 222 yards, and then came up short today against a mediocre Patriots defense, losing by almost twice as much as the Texans did against a much better Ravens defense last year when Yates was the quarterback. A few of us (including myself) give Peyton Manning a lot of flack for his ineptitude in the playoffs, but I think Schaub is very similar to Manning in that respect. Not including 2011 when he was hurt for the final six games, Schaub has thrown for over 4,000 yards (including being the league leader in passing yards in '09), at least 22 touchdowns, and had a QB rating of at least 90.7 (which actually dates back to '07) in each of the last four seasons, and yet he looked very out-of-place in his two playoff games this season, almost as if he suddenly forgot how to complete a pass longer than 15 yards. I think head coach Gary Kubiak deserves a lot of the blame for the Texans' late season collapse and how they performed in the playoffs, but Schaub didn't exactly wow me with his play either. Great quarterbacks like Matt Ryan and Jake Delhomme have/had the ability to overcome their head coaches' shortcomings, and I just don't think Schaub is capable of being a great quarterback once the stat sheet stops after week 17. 2055. cjs3872 posted: 01.14.2013 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, if New England beats Baltimore, the astonishing Super Bowl trend over the last decade will continue, because it will be the tenth consecutive Super Bowl in which the AFC team has either been New England (led by Tom Brady), Indainapolis (led by Peyton Manning in their Super Bowl appearances), or Pittsburgh (led by Ben Roethlisberger). A win by the Patriots over the Ravens will also establish or tie some records. It would mean that Brady would be the first QB to lead his team to six Super Bowls (he's currently ties with John Elway at five). A sixth Super Bowl appearance for Bill Belichick would also tie Don Shula's record, but would set a new record for Super Bowls for a had coach for one team, breaking the mark of five jointly held by Shula and Tom Landry. Brady's seventh title game appearance also ties a record for QBs, previously held by Joe Montana. Meanwhile, with Atlanta's win over Seattle coupled with San Francisco's win over Green Bay on Saturday, that means that either Atlanta or San Francisco will become the 11th different NFC team to participate in the last 12 Super Bowls, with only the Giants appearing twice during that span. The only NFC teams not to appear in a Super Bowl during this period will be the loser of the NFC Championship Game, along with the Cowboys, Redskins, Vikings, and Lions, who are the only NFC team never to have appeared in a Super Bowl. And the winner of the NFC Championship Game will complete the circuit for the division they play in as either the NFC West (if the 49ers win) of the NFC South (if the Falcons win) will have sent every one of its teams to one Super Bowl during this period. By the way, the AFC West has not sent a team to the Super Bowl since the 2002 Raiders, which is the last AFC team not led by either Brady, Roethlisberger, or Peyton Manning to get to a Super Bowl, a fact that the Ravens would change with a win over the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. 2056. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.14.2013 - 7:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Conspiracy theory time: Does anyone else think the fix is in for Ray Lewis because this is his last year in the NFL? 2057. David posted: 01.14.2013 - 1:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is 43 days until the Daytona 500. We all know what happened in the 43rd Daytona 500. 2058. BON GORDON posted: 01.14.2013 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Dale's death sucked. I was young but I remember it being the first race I watched from start to finish. My dad had watched NASCAR even as a little kid and he tried to get me into it but it took me awhile to warm up to what I said was just cars going around in circles. It's more than that though. Anyway after the race had ended I thought nothing of Dale's wreck. My aunt called my dad a few hours after the race and said that Tony Stewart had died ater the race. How and why she came up with this name I have no clue to this day. My aunt likes hockey and knows little about NASCAR. My uncle is a fan. So anyway we had turned on Sportscenter on ESPN and found out out it was actually Dale who passed away. I can't say that I really cared, I was only 12 and still wasn't a diehard NASCAR fan. However, I still knew and understood how great of driver he was. I knew NASCAR wouldn't be the same. Dale was a legend. He ruffled up a lot of feathers in his lifetime behind the wheel. What he eventually earned from drivers, crew members, people in NASCAR, and the fans was respect. He was looked at as more of a mythical god after his death than he was while he was alive. His death helped the sport gain a new fanbase, a new love or this great sport. These same fans ans a lot of the old ones don't care about NASCAR anymore. Too many changes over the last 10-12 years. And little things like changing the name from The Budweiser Shootout to the Sprint Unlimited are bigger than they seem. I like the chase but it doesn't help television ratings, it hurts the racing. Everyone is conservative just to make it to the end of the race and by the way the Winston Cup trophy was beautiful and the Sprint Cup is an ugly hunk of boring that isn't even a cup. The drivers are selish, young, and annoying. The average age of NASCAR drivers today is a lot lower than back in 2001. A lot of fans can't relate to them or even care about them. Like I said before. You guys would take a race from 1995 over a race from today. Why partially because look at the field of drivers form then and look at the field of drivers today. Stupid debris cautions, terrible, boring cookie-cutter tracks also are causing this. Now don't get me wrong I still love this sport but it could be a hell of a lot better. This new car is a start. It looks sleek and beautiful. They need to slow down the cars a bit at every track but Daytona and Talladega. Slower cars will make for better racing. As or Daytona and Talladega take off the restrictor plates. God I can't even tell you how good a race would be without them. I love double file restarts, it's the best thing NASCAR has done in the last five to ten years. I like the lucky dog rule. It helps Jeff if he goes a lap down. Get rid of the multiple green, white checkered finishes. One GWC is enough, we don't need a crash fest at the end. If it ends under caution oh well get over it. That's my rant I'm done. 2059. Sean posted: 01.14.2013 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The Budweiser Shootout to the Sprint Unlimited are bigger than they seem." This complaint I don't understand. That race had been so corrupted in its later years (starting from when they let champions/past race winners in and kept increasing the length). The new race is a return to form (now they just need to make it shorter). "The drivers are selish, young, and annoying. The average age of NASCAR drivers today is a lot lower than back in 2001." Selfish and annoying may be a criticism, but young isn't. 2060. David posted: 01.14.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I like the chase but it doesn't help television ratings" To each his own, I say. "I like the lucky dog rule. It helps Jeff if he goes a lap down." Am I the only one who thinks that that comment made Jeff look really bad? 2061. cjs3872 posted: 01.14.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BON GORDON, you have some good ideas, but also some bad ideas. You can not take the restrictor plates off at Daytona and Talladega, because if they did, they'd be going 225-230 at Daytona and close to 240 at Talladega. Not just that, but the racing wouldn't be any different than it is at the intermediates, with the cars strung out all over with not much competition. I also despise the double-file restarts because it takes away any advantage that is earned through running position. For instance, at Martinsville, fifth on a restart can be better than second, because fifth means you start on the inside. And at Bristol, the opposite is true, because you'd rather be sixth than third because the outside is so much faster on restarts. But also, I like the free pass rule because it gives ONE driver a lap back when a caution comes out, unlike the wave-around, which can and has given half the field laps back at once. And I also agree that one GWC is enough, and I'll go step further. They should eliminate GWC finishes all together at the restrictor plate tracks, because of how unsafe they've proven to be, and make GWC finishes one lap on road courses, instead of two because it simply takes too long. For instance, a two-lap GWC finish at Sonoma or Watkins Glen takes about as long as running three or four laps at Daytona, close to 8 laps at Dover, Martinsville, and Richmond, and 10-12 laps at Bristol. But I have another idea. Move the restart point closer to turn four at many of the speedways so chain reaction problems wouldn't be so common. In the older days, they restarted races back before the start of the pit road, and sometimes even in turn four, and there were rarely any problems on restarts. Now there are problems on restarts in nearly every race because they start too close to the S/F line, and if someone doesn't get going properly, or intentionally brake checks, it backs up the field and causes problems at almost every race. And if someone doesn't get going when they're supposed to, make it legal for them to be passed by cars behind them. Faster restarts should also be mandated, so the field doesn't get clogged up if someone has a problem, or intentionally backs the field up. 2062. Daniel posted: 01.14.2013 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael McDowell will run the full season for Phil Parsons Racing. They have sponsorship from K-LOVE for the Daytona 500 and from Curb Records for one race yet to be determined. 2063. Paul posted: 01.14.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the lucky dog rule only because it encourages lapped cars to not race the leaders. There's been a number of incidents where a lapped car was racing too hard trying to either stay on the lead lap or regain a lost lap, and it ended up with either the lapped car or one of the leaders getting wrecked in the process. One such incident that immediately comes to mind came at Sonoma '01, when Kevin Harvick fought diligently to regain his lap from race leader Robby Gordon, and wound up costing Robby the lead and the win to Tony Stewart. Naturally, Robby gets most of the blame because he allowed himself to get distracted by a lapped car instead of focusing on the big picture, but I don't think Harvick would have raced Robby that way had the lucky dog rule been in place back then. To put that in contrast, a similar situation came at Watkins Glen this past season when Dale Earnhardt, Jr. was lapped with a couple laps to go and just let the three leaders pass him without putting up a fight. This can be attributed to Junior's less aggressive driving style to Harvick's, but I also think that Harvick in that situation with the lucky dog rule in place would have done the same thing. While I do like the lucky dog rule, I absolutely hate the wave around rule. It makes the race too easy to get back in contention, and it makes the huge tracks like Pocono and the plate tracks an absolute joke because drivers will regain a lap while being in no danger of being lapped because of the size of the track. At the spring Pocono race, Jimmie Johnson was black flagged twice for speeding on pit road and then speeding while serving the penalty, took the wave around to get back on the lead lap on the following caution, and soon after got back into the top ten before finishing 4th. And don't get me started on the Nationwide race at Kansas when Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. wrecked himself and Joey Logano for no reason, lost two laps, regained both of them via the wave around and lucky dog (he wouldn't have received the lucky dog had the wave around rule not been in place), and passed leader Kyle Busch on the final lap when Kyle ran out of fuel to win the race. That was hands down the most undeserving win of the year throughout all three series because he did something that should have cost himself a good finish, and wound up winning the race because of NASCAR's welfare system and the leader running out of fuel on the final lap. Yeah sure, it sounds amazing on paper that he came back from two laps down to win the race and wound up winning the championship because of it, but NASCAR made that win SO easy for him with the system they currently have in place. 2064. David posted: 01.14.2013 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And don't get me started on the Nationwide race at Kansas when Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. wrecked himself and Joey Logano for no reason, lost two laps, regained both of them via the wave around and lucky dog (he wouldn't have received the lucky dog had the wave around rule not been in place), and passed leader Kyle Busch on the final lap when Kyle ran out of fuel to win the race. That was hands down the most undeserving win of the year throughout all three series because he did something that should have cost himself a good finish, and wound up winning the race because of NASCAR's welfare system and the leader running out of fuel on the final lap. Yeah sure, it sounds amazing on paper that he came back from two laps down to win the race and wound up winning the championship because of it, but NASCAR made that win SO easy for him with the system they currently have in place." Being there myself, I was astounded that Stenhouse was back in contention. I didn't even know he was on the lead lap and challenging for the lead until the end. Personally, I think the caution ruined what was shaping up to be a great finish between Kyle Busch and Paul Menard. I know there was almost no actual passing, but all I could do was sit there and watch them make lap after lap, anticipating Menard passing Busch for the lead. 2065. 18fan posted: 01.14.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I agree with you about the lucky dog. However, there is an advantage to being on the lead lap as opposed to getting the lucky dog because you don't have to restart behind the lapped cars. The lucky dog does prevent lapped cars from trying risky moves to pass the leader. 2066. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.14.2013 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why do I have an Ominous feeling that NASCAR is going to hit rock bottom this season. 2067. BON GORDON posted: 01.14.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To post 2060 didn't mean to make Jeff sound bad, it did but or any fan of a driver that goes a lap down it's nicew that your driver can get a lap back and still have a chance of a good finish. And yes I like the chase but at the same time I would miss it if they took it away. I understand a lot of folks dislike the chase. And CJS I'm sure they can figure out a way to take off restrictor plates and have a good race at Daytona and Talladega. 2068. BON GORDON posted: 01.14.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *I wouldn't miss the chase if they took it away 2069. FloridaFan88 posted: 01.14.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the Chase for the Cup has run its course. This will be the 10th year of its unwanted existence. NASCAR has reverted back to provisionals, the traditional eligibility of the Shootout (now Sprint Unlimited...ugh), and to a aesthetically-pleasing race car. After 10 years, NASCAR should do the right thing and eliminate the Chase. 2070. 44andJoe posted: 01.15.2013 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I've mentioned before, the 'lucky dog' rule should be replaced by a rule that says 'all cars between the leader and the second placed car get one lap back', which would, mechanically, be exactly the same as things were before the LD was institute. Wave-around I can take or leave, it does what it is intended to do well and has a price tag (not pitting) attached to it. 2071. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.15.2013 - 10:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I hate to distress, but the report is that it's almost a given that Richard Childress will adulterate the iconic stylized 3 and let that candy-@$$ crybaby, err, his grandson, Austin Dillon run it in his Cup races this year and for ROY in 2014. 2072. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2013 - 11:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frankly NicoRosbergFan, I hope you're right about Childress bringing the #3 back to the Cup series, though it would be better if it were a different styling of the number, maybe eve to the style Childress used when he drove it himself for six years (1976-'81). I think I've said this before, but neither Childress or anyone else has the right to flat-out hold a number hostage. Remember that, in 1993, Richard Petty ran the number 44 on his car because he didn't feel it was right to give the driver that replaced him his famous 43, but NASCAR told Petty that if he didn't use the #43 in 1994, that he would lose it. Now whether or not Childress decides to use the #3 is one thing, but he has no right to hold it hostage in my view, in case anyone else wants to use it, not that anyone else would. To me, it might be a bigger travesty if the #3 was used for an uncompetitve car, because of it's history, which goes back at least as far as when Smokey Yunick used the number with drivers such as Paul Goldsmith and Fireball Roberts. And speaking of Roberts, after his death, within a year or two, other teams were using his famous #22, and Bobby Allison was very successful with it in two stints, first with Mario Rossi in late 60s, and in the 80s, even winning a championship with it in 1983. It would be odd though if Childress brought back the #3 and then changed to Dodge, because the #3 has been synonymous with Chevrolet since 1971, when Richard Howard and Junior Johnson used the #3 when they brought Chevrolet back to NASCAR. I just think it's a bad idea to retire numbers in racing, or across any sport for that matter. NASCAR did it in the Modified series with Richie Evans' #61, and IndyCar intends to do the same with A.J. Foyt's #14 when Foyt's team is no longer in business, though that day is probably going to be a long way off. And yes, I think retiring the #42 for Jackie Robinson was an incredibly dumb thing for MLB to do in 1997, though players already using it were allowed to kep using it. 2073. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Quick! For 100,000 points, who can tell me the significance of the 2008 Bank of America 500? (Hint: The answer has nothing to do with that year's Chase) 2074. Paul posted: 01.15.2013 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The NHL also retired Wayne Gretzky's No. 99 league-wide following his retirement after the '99 season. Ross Chastain has agreed to run 15 of 22 races next season for Brad Keselowski Racing in the Truck Series, driving the #19 truck. Of the remaining seven races, Dave Blaney will run the dirt track race at Eldora, with the remaining six races to be split between Brad Keselowski and Joey Logano. Also, Ryan Blaney will run the full schedule in the #29 truck. Richard Childress says that he may run Austin Dillon in more than seven races next season due to the current rules that drivers may run more than seven races in a series and still be eligible for Rookie of the Year if they aren't racing for series points (which explains why Danica is eligible this year and Trevor Bayne still maintains eligibility). Austin will drive for both Joe Falk and James Finch in 2013, and it sounds like his brother Ty will run some Cup races as well, possibly with those same teams. Also, RCR has reportedly shut down its #2 Truck team, including releasing driver Tim George, Jr. Similarly to last season when they purchased a lot of KHI's equipment, Eddie Sharp Racing may pick up some of those laid off employees, including driver Tim George, Jr. Kyle Larson is likely to run a full Nationwide schedule for Chip Ganassi in 2013, sponsored by Target in a car that has yet to be numbered (might be #41). He is also likely to run a part-time Cup schedule for EGR. Matt Kenseth will run five Nationwide races for JGR. 2075. Paul posted: 01.15.2013 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Quick! For 100,000 points, who can tell me the significance of the 2008 Bank of America 500?" It was Jeff Burton's last NASCAR win to date. 2076. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2013 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, there's another case of a sports league overstepping its bounds, because as I've stated, no sports league should ever have the right to unilateraly retire a number. However, in the case of Wayne Gretzky #99, what other sports leagues, except football where the rosters are so much bigger than in any other sport, do you see anyone wearing a number that high? That said, the NHL had no right to retire that number in my opinion. Where the act of retiring numbers is concerned in MLB, the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, etc. are concerned, that should be up to the individual team and only the individual team. For instance, I used MLB's retiring the #42 in honor of Jackie Robinson. The St. Louis Cardinals had also retired that number, but for Bruce Sutter, despite the fact that he only pitched for the Cardinals for four years. In fact, Sutter used #40 for the Braves because Rick Mahler was already using the #42 there. In fact, for a number of years, the NFL actually outlawed the retiring of numbers by its teams, and several teams, such as the Raiders, Redskins, and Cowboys do not retire numbers, but also make it clear that they'll never issue certain numbers again. For instance, the Redskins do not issue the #44, which was John Riggins' number, and the Bills, although they never officially retired O.J. Simpson's #32, they have made it clear that they'll never issue that number again, and in MLB, the same goes for #14 for the Cincinnati Reds, which is Pete Rose's number. The Reds can not legally retire Rose's number, since he's banned for life, but have made it clear that it will never be used again, and thatis also true regarding Troy Aikman's #8 and Roger Staubach's #12 with the Dallas Cowboys. They've never retired any numbers, but they've made it clear that those numbers will never be used again, so there have been teams that have unofficially retired numbers. But it should be up to the teams, not a sports league, whether or not to retire numbers. In the case of NASCAR, it's quite different since the owners own the car numbers. But again, NASCAR has no right to retire car numbers in my opinion, and except for one case in the Modified Series, they've actually done the right thing by not retiring any numbers. I also think it's a big mistake what IndyCar is planning once A.J. Foyt's team goes by the wayside, though I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon, because they've already made it clear that they intend to retire Foyt's #14, and have also said that no other team can use that number. 2077. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.15.2013 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think it is Jeff Burton's Last Win 2078. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.15.2013 - 2:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, it WAS Jeff Burton's last win. The only league-wide retirement I have no issues with are Richie Evans in the Modifieds and Wayne Gretzky, and that is because those guys were insanely talented. I really wouldn't mind if NASCAR retired the 3 as long as they retired the 43. However, the retiring of numbers in any sport is ridiculous because the roots of racing was to get to the track, see what numbers the other guys had, and then say "Hell" as you use tape to slap Q-2.9 on the side of the car. I really wish NASCAR would let drivers use any combo of either a combo of three digits, a single dash, and single letters so guys could have 300D if they wanted. However, to put it into perspective Wayne Gretzky, basically imagine a driver winning about 25-30 races a year with the current schedule, more than doubling Richard Petty's win total, and retiring in a period of 20 years. I'm also an Oilers fan, so I'm just a prejudiced jerk. 2079. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was Jeff Burton's last NASCAR win to date." No. "I think it is Jeff Burton's Last Win" Nope. "No, it WAS Jeff Burton's last win." Nein. As unlikely as it is, Jeff Burton could still win a race. Perhaps on the restrictor-plate tracks. 2080. Paul posted: 01.15.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had a hunch this would happen, but now it's official that Nelson Piquet, Jr. will move up and run a full Nationwide schedule next year. Now it's pretty obvious that Turner's Nationwide cars aren't as fast as the Cup teams, but with a driver like Piquet who has that "refuse to lose" racing mentality, going up against conservative drivers in great rides like Sadler, Bayne, and Smith, I think Piquet has a chance at getting some wins and maybe even be a contender for the championship as well. No word on what his number will be or who will replace him in the Truck Series, but my guess is Jeb Burton will take over the #30 truck in 2013. 2081. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.15.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I pretty much knew this was coming with Austin. What I don't like is all the chatter that he will be "continuing Dale's legacy" which is a complete crock. Dale is WAY more than a number. But now he will be treated as such by the useless NASCAR media. There will also be talk of how it was "Richard's number" and he will get even more undue credit for the incredible dynasty Dale had from '84-'00. If people could treat that #3 for what it is, a number, I would be ok. 2082. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually Paul, Jeb Burton will apparently be driving the #4 truck for Turner-Smith Motorsports next year, if what I saw on SPEED's bottom line during Race Hub last night is accurate. And with Kyle Busch apparently returning to the #18 car next year in his NNS appearances, there won't be very many wins at all for the championship-eligible drivers, perhaps no more than six or eight, if that many, because Kyle's likely to take six to nine for himself, though a number of those would be races that Joey Logano won last year in that #18 car. One of the reason why so many races were won by the championship-eligible drivers in the Nationwide Series was that Kyle was driving his #54, instead of JGR's #18. Add that to the fact that Carl Edwards also drove in just one Nationwide Series race (which he won), and that meant a lot more opportunities for the NNS chanmpionship-eligible drivers to win last year, which they took advantage of for the most part. But with Kyle returning to the JGR NNS line-up, those opportunities for the NNS championship drivers to win have decreased dramatically. And by the way, I'm not entirely sure about Kyle Larson having a full-time NNS gig, as has been reported, because who would he drive for? Sure he has a contract with Ganassi, which I think is fool's gold, but I doubt that Ganassi would run a Nationwide team, JR Motorpsorts is set, as is Turner-Smith Motorsports, and I don't think Stewart-Haas will run a NNS team, even with Stewart as high on Larson as he (and everyone else) is, so Larson may be left out in the cold. Let's hope I'm wrong about that. Remember that Ganassi even has some catching up to do in the IndyCar series, something he hasn't been confronted with in years, so I think that's foremost on his plate, and he'll worry about his NASCAR stuff later. Let's also remember that he's not that involved with his NASCAR team, and never really has been, which I think is one reason why he's struggled ever since Sterling Marlin got hurt way back in 2002. See, unlike Penske, Ganassi had no experience at all in NASCAR when he became majority owner of that team in July of 2000. On the other hand, Penske had already known the ins and outs of NASCAR when he bought the majority stake in what was Blue Max Racing late in 1990, because he had competed in NASCAR in the 1970s, winning several significant races, incluing two at Darlington and a Daytona qualifying race in 1975, as well as races at Riverside and Ontario, so he already knew how tough the competition in NASCAR was. Ganassi had no idea, and still has his NASCAR team at the bottom of his pecking order, while Penske made a priority out of being sucessful in NASCAR, as since 2008, he has won the Daytona 500, Coca-Cola 600, the All-Star Race (which he also won in 2002), and now the championship. The only significant things Ganassi has won in NASCAR have been the Daytona 500 and Brickyard 400, both in 2010 (he also nearly won the Brickyard with Marlin in 2001), and scored Dodge's first win in it's second stint in NASCAR at Michigan in 2001. 2083. Talon64 posted: 01.15.2013 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And by the way, I'm not entirely sure about Kyle Larson having a full-time NNS gig, as has been reported, because who would he drive for? Sure he has a contract with Ganassi, which I think is fool's gold, but I doubt that Ganassi would run a Nationwide team, JR Motorpsorts is set, as is Turner-Smith Motorsports, and I don't think Stewart-Haas will run a NNS team, even with Stewart as high on Larson as he (and everyone else) is, so Larson may be left out in the cold. Let's hope I'm wrong about that. Remember that Ganassi even has some catching up to do in the IndyCar series, something he hasn't been confronted with in years, so I think that's foremost on his plate, and he'll worry about his NASCAR stuff later. Let's also remember that he's not that involved with his NASCAR team, and never really has been, which I think is one reason why he's struggled ever since Sterling Marlin got hurt way back in 2002." Robin Miller's reporting that it'll be a Target-sponsored Ganassi car, with some Cup races later in the year. If that's the case then it's great that Target is jumping on board with him this early. That'd put the current NNS ROTY contender crop at Hal Martin, Kyle Larson and Nelson Piquet Jr. 2084. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.15.2013 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope cjs3872 wouldn't think my theory of Kyle Larson isn't far fetched. What I think is Chip is doing with Kyle Larson is preparing him to be a cup driver in 2014. I am saying that because I got a hunch that Montoya or Jamie will be leaving EGR after this season. I think Jamie and Montoya are on the hot seat this year as a cup driver since Chip has changed who gets his engines from. The only thing he hasn't done is change the drivers. 2085. 44andJoe posted: 01.15.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >That'd put the current NNS ROTY contender crop at Hal Martin, Kyle Larson and Nelson Piquet Jr. Also, Jeffrey Earnhardt, who announced he'll be running a full season with Go Green Racing back at the end of November. And Kevin Swindell will be running a yet-undetermined number of races in N'wide for a new Biagi team. 2086. Talon64 posted: 01.15.2013 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Quick! For 100,000 points, who can tell me the significance of the 2008 Bank of America 500? (Hint: The answer has nothing to do with that year's Chase)" Keselowski failed to qualify? Although it was due to qualifying being cancelled. 2087. cjs3872 posted: 01.15.2013 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64, while I enjoy his opinions, as crazy as they are sometimes, I'm not sure I entirely trust Robin Miller as an actual reporter. Also, if what he says about Kevin Swindell is true, it would not be the first time that Kevin Swindell has tested the NASCAR waters. Remember that when Trevor Bayne got sick in 2011, Jack Roush had Swindell drive a race or two for him, and he was involved in a crash at Dover, so it would not be his first go-round in NASCAR. 2088. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 6:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Talon64 is the closest so far. The answer has something to do with qualifying. 2089. murb posted: 01.15.2013 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, all I can say is that we are in for a lot of fresh new faces in the Cup Series in a few years. I've said it before, but I think Piquet is going to be a top five Cup driver in his career, and if he gets with the right team, he has a really good chance to become a Cup champion. He's got all the tools. He can go for broke, but he can also be conservative when he needs to be. And he's also good on just about every type of race track from what I've seen. I agree with you Paul, I think he is going to have a great rookie season in NNS. I'm also impressed by Kyle Larson. I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see that Ganassi actually cares about this kid. I never would have thought that they would start a full time NNS ride for him. This reminds me of what RPM did with Michael Annett last year. I was really surprised to see them start an NNS team, but in the end, it paid off and Michael became a great up and coming driver because of it. Hopefully Larson can continue to build confidence and experience with this Ganassi NNS team. That being said, I really hope Ganassi doesn't revert back to their 2003 - 2006 era and rush him up too fast like they did to Reed Sorenson and (to a lesser extent) Casey Mears. Don't really know how Jeb Burton will do. I've been impressed with what I've seen from him in his few Truck appearances, but I still think he has a lot to learn. But a full season in Trucks will definitely help with that. Also, I read that Brad Keselowski Racing will field two full time trucks this year. Ryan Blaney will run full time in the 29, and the 19 will be shared by a bunch of drivers like Ross Chastain (hell yeah, another young guy!!!!), Dave Blaney (at Eldora - he'll have a great chance to win there), Brad Keselowski (hopefully he'll finally get a win in that series so he can finally stop running in it), and Joey Logano (ugh). 2090. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.15.2013 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The top 12 at the 08 Fall Charlottte was the 12 drivers in the Chase. 2091. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nope, NicoRosbergFan. The answer is that it was Brad Keselowski's first attempt at a Cup race. 2092. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.15.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well that was a pretty asinine answer. At least mine had significance. :P 2093. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.15.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's good to finally see some new blood coming down the line. Everything has been so stagnant for so long. 2094. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well that was a pretty asinine answer." Well, it stumped all of you, didn't it? 2095. Paul posted: 01.15.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was an asinine question, David. I would rank "Jeff Burton's final NASCAR win to date" ahead of "Brad Keselowski's first Cup attempt" (which he DNQ'd) in terms of the significance of the 2008 Bank of America 500. To put that in contrast, it would be like me asking you guys what was the significance of the 2012 Ford EcoBoost 400, and while everyone would be saying "Brad Keselowski/Roger Penske won his first Sprint Cup championship after this race" or "Jeff Gordon/Rick Hendrick won his first Cup race at Homestead", I would reveal the answer to be "Ricky Stenhouse's first crash DNF in Cup." I'll give you props for creativity, but I agree with Nico that it was an asinine question. "It's good to finally see some new blood coming down the line. Everything has been so stagnant for so long." This sport works in cycles, lasting about 10 years each. First there's a rebuilding cycle with new talent rising up the ranks, then a stagnant cycle where everybody stays where they are, and then the cycle repeats itself. Thankfully, this most recent stagnant cycle, while being arguably the worst in NASCAR history because of the lack of great talent at the top of the totem pole, seems to be coming to an end in the next couple of years as more focus is being placed on the Nationwide and Truck Series than it was from '06-'10. Obviously the Sprint Cup Series is the series that gets the most attention, but I'm mostly paying attention to the other two national series because I enjoy watching drivers build and cut their teeth in the lower levels of racing. cjs made a great point earlier that the win totals for Nationwide regulars will probably go down quite a bit now that Kyle Busch is back driving for JGR, but I do think that the championship battle will be very intriguing. The last two seasons really only had 4-5 drivers that had any shot at winning the title, but now with the likes of Vickers, Bayne, Smith, Piquet, and Larson (maybe) joining the full-time ranks, along with returning drivers Sadler, Dillon, Hornish, Annett, and Scott (maybe the team change will help him in 2013), this may be the most competitive Nationwide season in terms of who wins the championship since 2003, when the top six drivers were separated by just 89 points (about the difference between 1st and 25th place) entering the final race. I don't know about you guys, but I think that's the most intriguing series this season because of the talent and similar driving styles that the drivers at the top each have. Perhaps the most interesting thing that I'll be looking at will be how well Piquet and Larson (assuming that the rumors are true) perform next season, because they will take more risks than the other title contenders, but will be in lesser equipment that may hold them back. It'll be interesting to see if either of them are capable of overachieving in their equipment, because then it could force the conservative drivers like Bayne, Sadler, Smith, and Dillon to step up their game and actually go for the win, and not just wait for the win to fall into their laps. 2096. David posted: 01.15.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That was an asinine question, David. I would rank "Jeff Burton's final NASCAR win to date" ahead of "Brad Keselowski's first Cup attempt" (which he DNQ'd) in terms of the significance of the 2008 Bank of America 500. To put that in contrast, it would be like me asking you guys what was the significance of the 2012 Ford EcoBoost 400, and while everyone would be saying "Brad Keselowski/Roger Penske won his first Sprint Cup championship after this race" or "Jeff Gordon/Rick Hendrick won his first Cup race at Homestead", I would reveal the answer to be "Ricky Stenhouse's first crash DNF in Cup." I'll give you props for creativity, but I agree with Nico that it was an asinine question." To be quite honest with you, I was completely ignorant of the fact that Jeff Burton hasn't won since that race. 2097. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2013 - 5:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I still think that only 3-5 drivers have any shot at the Nationwide Series title in 2013, but Austin Dillon is my prohibitive favorite for a number of reasons. First, I believe he has the best cars in the series among those competing for the title. Secondly, he along with guyys like Trevor Bayne, Elliott Sadler, Sam Hornish, Jr., and Regan Smith are conservative drivers, which really pays off with the current points system, because it really doesn't pay to go for any position in a race late, unless it's first. And also, I don't see any teams other than the ones from last year, except for maybe JR Motorsports' apparent upgrade in their championship-eligible car and the addition of 2003 Nationwide champion Brian Vickers to the JGR line-up, that have any realistic shot at the title in 2013. And also, the thing with the conservative drivers I mentioned is that they'll take chances go for the win, but they'll only take chances when they need to, and not run on the ragged edge all day. What those kind of drivers do is to run the first 75-80% race, not really caring where they're running, as long as they're in the same lap as the leaders, and then be more aggresive when they need to be. A perfect case in point is the only NNS race that Trevor Bayne has won to date. He ran seventh or eighth all day, as he usually does, but late in the race, when it actually counted, he took the necessary risks, stole the lead on a late restart from a dominant Carl Edwards, and never looked back. Guys like that will have a better chance at the championship because they'll wait to take their risks and make their moves when it actually counts. I don't see the Nationwide championship-eligible drivers winning nearly as often as they did because there aren't any really aggressive drivers among those battling for the title, but what I do see is the fact that those drivers I expect to battle for the title being the kind that won' make mistakes, and championships are lost a whole lot more often than they are won. Just ask Jimmie Johnson. Of his five championships, at least two of them were actually lost by his rivals (2008, '10), but he has lost two championships himself (2004, '12). Richard Petty (1973), Darrell Waltrip (1979), Dale Earnhardt, Sr. (1989), Bill Elliott (1985, '92), and Jeff Gordon (1996, '04) are all among those that have lost championships, yet all have also won championships. I'm not sure that this year's Nationwide Series championship will be lost, but I don't think anyone is going to outright take it either. It could be similar to what happened in the Cup Series in 1984, when nobody seemed to take the title by the throat, but when it was over, conservative drivers ended up battling for the title. In this year's Nationwide Series, it may be nothing but conservative drivers battling for the title, and there could be a winless driver contending for the title. 2098. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.16.2013 - 7:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Dillon, Smith, and Sadler all winning at least twice this year. Bayne and Hornish could very well find themselves winless and fighting for the title as late as Texas-2. 2099. Paul posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that, cjs, but I believe that Childress stated a couple weeks ago that he would be putting more emphasis on Austin's Nationwide team next season than he did in 2012. If Austin could win two races (one if you exclude the first win because he failed post-race inspection) and finish 3rd in points as the No. 2 RCR car, and didn't have the tendency to lose points from mistakes made on the track like Elliott Sadler, he could very well be the favorite to win the 2013 title as the No. 1 driver in the RCR camp. Of course, he won't have the benefit of being teammates with a true veteran like Sadler anymore, but hopefully he learned enough from him last year that he'll carry with him in 2013 as a potentially serious title contender. That being said, I was not impressed by his maturity last season, and for him to lose a classy veteran teammate with his maturity where it's at doesn't give me much hope. On equipment and driving style alone, Austin may very well win this championship. But I just don't think he has the mentality it takes to overcome the adversity that is needed to win a championship, which is why I think that if he comes across some rough patches next season, he will lose himself the championship, which is why I think either Sadler, Vickers, Bayne, or Smith will win the championship because they (especially the latter two) seem to have enough mental composure to overcome any bad luck that comes their way during the season. 2100. Paul posted: 01.16.2013 - 10:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I think this is bad news for RCR's Cup team next season. With Childress admitting to putting greater emphasis on Austin's (and maybe Ty's) team in 2013, along with his open disappointment for Kevin Harvick leaving after the season and EGR abandoning their engine shop, I see his Cup team struggling mightily in 2013. I don't like that RCR is putting more emphasis on its lower series teams than on its Cup team, because that's only going to put his Cup team further behind the 8-ball while other teams in his league like RPM and EGR will only continue to grow and surpass him in the rankings. RCR is already in a bad situation with Harvick leaving, Burton dropping off the map the past two years, Menard being a top 15 driver at best, and EGR leaving for the Hendrick engine program, and I think that putting the Cup team on the books in favor of building his grandsons' careers is making a bad situation even worse. A team shouldn't put all of its energy on developing one or two drivers' careers because they are essentially mortgaging their operation based on those developing drivers' success, so if Austin and/or Ty Dillon fail, RCR fails. I think this is yet another bad business decision on the part of RCR, and if it doesn't work out, RCR will probably continue its slide into obscurity on the NASCAR ladder. 2101. David posted: 01.16.2013 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Six years ago, we lost Benny Parsons. 2102. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't worry too much about RCR. With the apparent return of "the famed #3" we will be getting to hear a lot about "six time Cup championship owner Richard Childress" and all the things "Richard accomplished" in the 80's and 90's. Somebody please hand me a bucket. 2103. Paul posted: 01.16.2013 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With all the emphasis being put on his lower level teams, Childress may demand that he be addressed as a 13-time NASCAR championship-winning owner (5 Nationwide championships, including 3 driver championships, and 2 Truck championships) just to make a point that more than half of his championships were won without Dale Earnhardt. Therefore, Earnhardt contributed to less than half of RCR's NASCAR championships. What a joke! 2104. Paul posted: 01.16.2013 - 2:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and speaking of bad business decisions, apparently Landon Cassill has decided to leave BK Racing, saying that they couldn't agree on a contract for 2013. He had better have a good backup plan for making this move so late in the offseason because while I think he does have talent, it's not like his stock as a NASCAR driver is that high. 2105. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2013 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, maybe Landon Cassill has seen BK Racing for what they are, and possibly forseen that their situation is not as solid as everyone is made to believe it is. And also, the thing with Childress' accomplishments in the 80s and first half of the 90s is that he not only had the top driver of the era. That much is indisputeable. But he also built the best TEAM. For instance, he had the absolute best pit crew in "The Flying Aces". He also had, in Kirk Shelmerdne, arguably one of the three best crew chiefs of that period, if not the best, and Shelmerdine's replacement Andy Petree was very good, as well. And their engines, while not supplying the most horsepower, had the best combination of power and reliability of any on the circuit when Earnhardt and Childress were racking up championships. Sure they had weaknesses. They just had fewer of them than anyone else, and utilized that to their benefit in claiming six titles in nine years and just one finish outside the top five from 1986-'97, and only one finish out of the top three from 1986-'95. Sure, Childress had that era's best driver, but he also had the best pit crew and one of the best crew chiefs, so it wasn't all Earnhardt, as many on this board would leave you to believe. 2106. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It is never "all anybody" but, holy shit, have you seen the decisions Richard has made in the past 12 years? I hate to reopen this can again, but six championships with Richard Childress has got to be equal to 12 with Hendrick. I know there is no way of proving that, and at some point we will agree to disagree, then start arguing again, but the pure lack of stability of RCR ever since they lost Dale (even their 13 year association with Harvick has been filled with squabbles, near constant team turnover, and is coming to a very ignominous end), and given that stability was one of the cornerstones of the Earnhardt dynasty, I just can't see anyone being better than Dale. Obviously I was a huge fan of his growing up, as a kid totally enthralled by The Intimidator image, but I feel I have completely objective reasons as to why I rank him as the best. I don't think anybody else in NASCAR history could have won 76 races and 7 championships with the career arc he had (Osterlund '79-'80, a pu-pu platter in '81, Bud Moore '82-'83, Richard Childress '84-'01). 2107. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.16.2013 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really, Osterlund had a top-notch team from the get-go; they just quit really fast because it took 3 years to reach the top. Where else was there to go but sell? When you have a driver as great as Earnhardt, the team is bound to see some collapse afterward. Examples: post-Weatherly Bud Moore, post-Bonnett Wood Brothers, post-Waltrip Junior Johnson (although really on a steep decline already, losing DW finished them off). 2108. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Um, what????? What the crap is going on at Notre Dame? I tuned in to BSPN while flipping channels to see if anything major is going on in the sports world, and granted I don't have high expectations for BSPN when it comes to prioritizing stories in sports, I see a headline saying "Manti Teo's girlfriend does not exist". Huh? Even by my incredibly low standards for the Worldwide Leader this grabbed my attention. Watching the AD's press conference and this is the friggin twighlight zone. This has to be the most bizarre "sports story" I have ever seen. 2109. 44andJoe posted: 01.16.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Earnhardts, Kerry's son Bobby Dale is running ARCA Trucks this year. 2110. Paul posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah apparently Manti met this "girl" online and started to develop an emotional relationship with her, then was told that she died of leukemia, which was revealed to be a hoax and all part of some sick joke that someone said. I don't know all the details, but that's the gist of it. Manti later released a statement basically stating how sick and embarrassed he was to be a part of something like this, and hopes that people will learn from his mistake about meeting people over the internet. This story just disturbs me. 2111. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Something just doesn't add up. I read the Deadspin article and, to quote Ken Squire, "something is amiss". 2112. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And post #2112 which will be the 100th anniversary of Brad's first Cup title, goes to me. 2113. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually NicoRosbergFan, Osterlund ran into money troubles after the 1980 championship, so he had to sell the team. Unfortunately, the man he sold it to was the least trustworthy owner in the sport's history, Jim Stacy, who had simliar troubles in 1978, and shut his original team down after the 1979 Daytona 500, in which Neil Bonnett crashed. Stacy's shady ways got even worse in his second stint as a team owner in 1981-'83. But Osterlund's team was a competitve team, as it was the original Penske effort in NASCAR, which won five times, finished fourth in the points in 1976, the first time Penske ran the full season, despite switching from AMC Matadors to Mercurys, and then sold the team to Osterlund after the 1977 season, so the seeds were there. All Osterlund needed was a driver willing to take chances, and he got it when he hired Dale Earnhardt. Unfortunately, he had guys on his team, most notably Roland Wlodyka, who didn't know how to call a race. If he had more competent people on his pit box, Osterlund's team would have won more than it did. So that wasn't a John Mecom-type situation that caused Osterlund to sell out. He sold out because he was in big-time financial trouble. It would have been interesting how a Dale Earnhardt-Dale Inman driver-crew chief combination would have worked for an extended period of time (Osterlund hired Inman before the 1981 Daytona 500, but agreed to let Inman be Richard Petty's crew chief for that race). But it was Childress that decided, with input from Junior Johnson, to have Dale not drive for him in 1982, because he felt his team was not strong enough. So Childress spent the next two years building up his team so that when Dale returned in 1984, that it would be championship-caliber, and it was. Two-thirds of the way through that season, Earnhardt was leading the chamionship standings, and was leading it before he scored his first victory that year in the 1984 Talladega 500. And when 1986 came around, theirs was the best team in the sport, with the best driver to boot, and the results over the next decade showed that. They had the best driver, the best pit crew, aruguably the best crew chief, the best engines from a power and reliability standpoint, and the best cars, and what transpired was six championships in nine years with two other near-misses, as he was a contender in both 1988 and '89 (he and his team uncharacteristicly threw away the title in 1989). In fact, I believe Earnhardt's 10-year run from 1986-'95 was better than Richard Petty's best 10-year run (1966-'75), when the competition level is factored in, and Childress was a big reason why because he realized his team was not up to Dale's caliber, so he built it up so that it was when he returned in 1984. 2114. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.16.2013 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And 2013, the 25th anniversary of Bill Elliott's first Cup title, goes to me. 2115. murb posted: 01.16.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, shocked to hear about Landon leaving BK. Despite what CJS says, I think BK has done a great job of building themselves up to be a respectable team that can solidly finish in the top 20-25 week to week. Oh well. At least Reutimann now has a decent full time ride for the first time in two years. As for Landon, I don't expect to see him back in Cup anytime soon, unfortunately. Also, I now will officially refer to RCR as NGR. Nepotistic Grandchild Racing. 2116. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.16.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) " But Osterlund's team was a competitve team, as it was the original Penske effort in NASCAR, which won five times, finished fourth in the points in 1976, the first time Penske ran the full season, despite switching from AMC Matadors to Mercurys, and then sold the team to Osterlund after the 1977 season, so the seeds were there." Articles and books say otherwise. While he bought the equipment, he brought his own people to crew the team. A 1980 Sports Illustrated article calls the team "mostly young, mostly Californian". The book about the 1979 season called "He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back" also talks about how it was a startup group of California teenagers with pretty much zero NASCAR experience until the great (but legitimately insane) Jake Elder joined them. I highly doubt anybody who worked for Bobby Allison on the Penske #2 car was working on that 1980 Winston Cup championship team. "So Childress spent the next two years building up his team so that when Dale returned in 1984, that it would be championship-caliber, and it was. Two-thirds of the way through that season, Earnhardt was leading the chamionship standings, and was leading it before he scored his first victory that year in the 1984 Talladega 500." I wouldn't put too much stock into that. 1984 ranks alongside 2002 and 1991 (ironically won by Earnhardt) as "um, these are seriously the teams fighting it out for the Winston Cup?" seasons. In some ways you could say it was the spiritual grandfather of the "modern" RCR teams. They didn't win much (twice), neither were dominating wins, didn't lead many laps, didn't have mechanical failures, relied on others beating themselves, and basically waited for the race and points battle to fall in their laps. Articles at the time openly talked about them stroking. Two late season engine failures killed their title hopes while Terry Labonte and Billy Hagan (two career wins in 5 seasons prior to 1984) and Harry Gant and his team owned by Hal Needham and Burt Reynolds and their 5 combined wins in '84 battled it out for the title. Yeah. Then came 1985, Bill Elliott had a WICKED fast Ford Thunderbird, Richard tried to keep up and wound up blowing 9 engines while they struggled to finish in the Top 10 in points. But Dale bailed them out, winning 4 times on half mile tracks, each of which with help from his trusty front bumper with poor Tim Richmond being the victim 3 of the 4 times. "They had the best driver, the best pit crew, aruguably the best crew chief, the best engines from a power and reliability standpoint, and the best cars, and what transpired was six championships in nine years" It actually goes deeper than that. The key behind their success as a pit crew was their stability. In those years, there was very little turnover in The Flying Aces and in the team overall. The biggest was Kirk Shelmerdine leaving, but Andy Petree, talented and hungry to be part of a champion, filled that role nicely. Dale peaked statistically in '86 and '87 for a number of reasons. First off the car itself. Chevy came out with the slopeback rear windshield to help aerodynamically combat the Ford Thunderbird. So now RCR could settle on what you call "the best engines from a power and reliability standpoint". I call it "our engines are not nearly as fast as a lot of the teams out there, but won't ever blow up, and we have Dale Earnhardt so we can still get carried to a Top 5 on the big tracks while he will dominate and win the tracks 1.5 miles and less which will allow us to get huge points leads". It worked for those two seasons. It still doesn't change the fact that Dale was WAXED on the pre restrictor plate (and early restrictor plate) races at Dega and Daytona by the Elliots and their Thunderbird, Davey and Yates with their Thunderbird, the Stavola Brothers with a pushing 50 Bobby Allison and young destined-to-be-a-bust Bobby Hillen Jr with their Buicks, and Hendrick Motorsports in the old Monte Carlos. The following drivers won on those two tracks from '85-'89: Bill (4 times), Davey (3 times), Bobby (3 times, his final 3 wins), Greg Sacks' illegal car, Cale (2nd to last win), Bodine (damnit), Bobby Hillen Jr, Tim Richmond (Hendrick alert), Phil Parsons, Ken Schrader (Hendrick alert), Darrell (Hendrick alert), and Terry Labonte. Absent from that list: winner of 28 races over that span including the '86 and '87 Winston Cup championship. The other factor was that the Monte Carlo itself was a battle tank. Dale could dent the hell out of it and not bother it too much which matched his driving style at the time. Throw in the bias ply tires that allowed him to dirt track the car everywhere, and things aligned the best they ever did for Dale. Give him Robert Yates' motors, or Ernie Elliott motors, or Randy Dorton's motors, or Waddell Wilson's motors, or whoever built the Stavolas motors (knowing Bobby's mechanical wizardry and inability to trust ANYONE, he probably built them himself) and he would have about 10-15 more wins over that period at Daytona, Dega, Michigan, and Pocono. Once they restricted the cars at Daytona and Dega to the point where drafting and using the air was everything, Dale unleashed the greatest 11 year stretch of plate racing ever ('90-'00, 8 Dega wins, 3 Daytona wins with numerous heartbreaking losses, 3 Busch Clashes, and TEN CONSECUTIVE qualifying race wins). Gordon eventually passed him in points paying plate wins, but it took him a 13 year stretch ('95-'07) in cars that even Jimmie Johnson was winning plate races in. "Jimmie Johnson" and "drafting" go together like "Tom Brady" and "beating Eli Manning in the Super Bowl". Then came the Lumina 1/3 of the way through '89 along with radial tires and Dale had a choice. Keep racing aggressively as hell and pay for it since the Lumina was aero sensitive and the new tires didn't take slipping around well, or change. After learning some hard lessons in 1989, Dale actually peaked as a driver from '90- mid '96. The numbers weren't as good, but look at the factors. In addition to the aero sensitivty of the Lumina, there is the fact it simply was not a good race car. Look at what Hendrick Motorsports did with the old Monte Carlo, and steep their dropoff was from '90-'94. Considering that they introduced the new Monte Carlo in 1995 and HMS immediately ran off 4 straight titles and 10 over the next 16 seasons (!!!), that has to tell you something. But that RCR team still had Dale Earnhardt. And despite the limitations of the Lumina, the ill suited radial tires, father time creeping up on Dale (he turned 40 in April 1991), and an owner that fell behind the times, he won 4 out of 5 titles, grabbed a runner up in '95 nearly making up 300 points in the final 4 races, and was in the title hunt asainst the much faster Monte Carlos of HMS and Yates' Fords in the Summer of '96 when he had his injury. If I could have Dale redo any season of his career, it wouldn't be 1989, metal breaking and divebombs by lesser drivers are part of racing, it would be 1996. Keep Dale in the title hunt with no injuries, at age 45, and his competition is Jeff "I Just Can't Finish A Season" Gordon, Dale "I Am Too Passive" Jarrett, and Terry "Calling Me Too Passive Is An Insult To People Like Dale Jarrett" Labonte. I want to see that. Given Dale's legendary closing ability, the fact he was still The Intimidator, and the fact he was simply better than those other 3, and he is your 1996 Winston Cup champion. But Dale, from February 1990 thru July 1996, showed why he is the best in my opinion. He became a smarter all around driver. He picked his spots, knew when to lay back and log laps, when to press the issue, when to cool his tires, when to punish his tires, how to psych out his competition both on track and off (see 1990) and even when to pull out some old Intimidator tricks (Rockingham 1996). That was the most cerebral stretch by any driver. And remember, those psychological tricks only work if you are truly a better driver than your competitors and they know it. Dale was, knew he was, and used it to perfection. Best Ever. 2117. David posted: 01.16.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The book about the 1979 season called 'He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back'" Now there is a GREAT book! I learned a lot from it. I've read it like four times. "also talks about how it was a startup group of California teenagers with pretty much zero NASCAR experience until the great (but legitimately insane) Jake Elder joined them." To quote Darrell Waltrip, "Oh man, that guy was a nut!" 2118. cjs3872 posted: 01.16.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, there are a few things that are factually incorrect about that last post. First, while Penske sold his team to Rod Osterlund, which included Dave Marcis, Penske's driver in 1977, and the car #2 itself, he did not sell his equipment to Osterlund because Osterlund wisely wanted to run Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets, which were the cars to beat at that time. For that reason, Penske sold his equipment to George Elliott, who was always a Ford man. And unfortunately, Osterlund had guys on his team that did not know how to run a race, such as Roland Wlodyka. Only when he hired Doug Richert did the fortunes of that team begin to rise. Of course, they had help in 1980, as every other team that ran the full schedule other than Petty Enterprises were going to change drivers for 1981, and Richard broke his neck at Pocono in 1980. Second, you bring up 1984's title battle between Harry Gant and Terry Labonte. A few other things happened that year. First, two drivers, Benny Parsons and Cale Yarborough, who did not run the full schedule, won races. Richard Petty also scored the final two wins of his career that year, and Bobby Allison scored his final two victories at places other than Daytona and Talladega. But also, Junior Johnson's team collapsed in the summer, as they held the point lead entering the Firecracker 400, and Richard Childress, who entered the latter part of the season as the point leaders, had never been in thatsituation, and suffered the same fate. That opened the door for Terry Labonte, who was guided by the legendary Dale Inman to his first championship. Then you mention Bill Elliott and his incredibly fast Thunderbird in 1985, which we now know was illegal due to modifications Dan Elliott admitted they made with pressurization of the fuel or air. You say that Richard Childress blew a lot of engines trying to keep up. Virtually all of Elliott's competition that year had the same problem. Just look at what happened between laps 60-100 of that year's Daytona 500, and that kind of thing was going on all season, with one notable exception. That being Junior Johnson, who decided on an uncharacteristicly conservative approach, not running all-out, but rather jt trying to finish and hope that would win him the title, and it did. Also, you say that Chevrolet came out with the slant-back windshield for 1986. Actually, that was a rule change NASCAR made, allowing teams running older GM bodies to add the rear window extension to make them more competitve with the Fords and the newer GM models that debuted in '86, and it worked. And also, Dale did not always get "waxed" as you said it on the plate tracks in the non-RP era. First, Dale DID win the 1984 Talladega 500 for his first win with Childress. (Ironically, his last win for Childress would come in that same event 16 years later.) Let's also not forget that he could have won the 1986 Daytona 500, and should have won the 1987 Daytona 500. Poor gas mileage cost him in '86 and an illadvised two-tire change cost him in '87. He led on the final lap of the 1988 Talladega 500 before he got passed by Ken Schrader, and he had carburetor troubles in the 1989 Daytona 500 that cost him any real chance of winning, so he had more than his share of chances to win, but circumstances kept him from doing so. And as for engines by guys like Robert Yates, Waddell Wilson, Ernie Elliott, etc. that made more horsepower. Let's not forget that those engines were very fragile, and would never have held up under Earnhardt, much like they wouldn't hold up under Buddy Baker a generation earlier. Earnhardt was simply too hard on such equipment, and when Richard Childress figured that out, he realized that he had to build engines that would last, so he sacrificed a few horsepower for being there at the end. After all, what good is having the most horsepower if you can't make it last? Also, you say about what Hendrick did with the Old Monte Carlo. Except for 1986, they were pretty pedestrian with that car, as well. In fact, they didn't win at all in '85, won only three times in '87, and only four times in '88, and did not win on a high-speed track in '87, and only once in '88 (DW's record fourth win in the 600). In 1989, most of HMS' success actually came with the Lumina, as all their teams won with it in '89, but only Darrell won with the old Monte Carlo. And no, I don't consider Pocono a high-speed track back then. Hendrick had four bad years, then hired Terry Labonte for 1994, and the rest is history, because Hendrick's resurgence actually began with Labonte's arrival in 1994. But RCR's downfall began with two events in 1996. The most notable of which was Dale's crash at Talladega, the worst of his career. But their downfall actually began before that, and their downfall truly began with Richard's decision to go with co-crew chiefs that year, which was a terrible decision that they never truly recovered from. That's where their downfall truly started. 2119. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 01.17.2013 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've been listening to this Manti story at the gym for the past three hours. Here are just some random questions that I have. Everything Te'o has said may not be exactly true, but can't be proven to have been a lie either. The red flag, however, is that his dad told the story about how Manti met the girl at the Stanford game in 2009. This was a face to face meeting, too. I can understand a person trying to pull a hoax on him this season. He's perhaps the most popular player in college football. However, this has apparently been going on for the better half of four years. Manti talked with her on the phone for around eight hours each night as she was battling cancer. What sicko would impersonate an ill person for eight hours each night just to keep this hoax going? Who would dedicate enough time each day to something that is really meaningless? Where are these letters that Manti received from her? If he wants to confess his innocence, then providing letters, scriptures and phone records would be a good start. Another thing that is going unnoticed is the Tuiasosopo connection. That's a well-respected family that is deep in football tradition. They also have a pretty good name and considerable wealth. Why would Ronaiah risk his dignity by getting involved in this? Ronaiah and Manti both have everything to lose and nothing to gain. It just doesn't make sense. I know that some of the timelines that Te'o has provided doesn't exactly match up, but I can't even begin to dive into that aspect yet. I will say that if Te'o is truly innocent, he must have been really freaked out when his fake, dead girlfriend called him several months after her death. 2120. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 6:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Marcis ran Chevrolet's for Penske in 1977. 2121. Paul posted: 01.17.2013 - 11:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Because Robby Gordon isn't scheduled to race in NASCAR in 2013, Tommy Baldwin has changed the number of his Cup car from #36 to #7, in tribute to his late father, who used that number during his modified racing career. This goes along with what cjs has previously stated about numbers being used in NASCAR. Rather than allow Robby Gordon to hold that number hostage during his sabbatical from NASCAR, NASCAR has basically reissued that number to any team that may wish to change to #7, which TBR has decided to do. 2122. Paul posted: 01.17.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really want to believe Manti Te'o's story about the girlfriend hoax (partly because I think he's a nice guy that got fooled, partly because I have some "Golden Domer" bias in me), but the more I hear about this story, the more I have my doubts. Regardless of whether this was a legit hoax or not, I think this embarrassing story hurts his draft stock to the point where he falls to the bottom, or maybe even drops out, of the 1st round of the NFL draft. This is an ugly blemish on the resume of what would have been a top 10 draft pick. 2123. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I really want to believe Manti Te'o's story about the girlfriend hoax (partly because I think he's a nice guy that got fooled, partly because I have some "Golden Domer" bias in me), but the more I hear about this story, the more I have my doubts." You and me both (although I don't have ND bias, unless it is an old late 70s film of them with a QB #3 leading them on another insane comeback in a Cool fashion I usually check out when the Irish are mentioned). I also want to believe him because he seems like a legitimately nice guy, but it takes a LOT of suspension of cynicism to believe him. I still want to hear more facts before making a final judgement, but right now it looks really bad. 2124. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 01.17.2013 - 4:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Was he set up by some USC people because he chose the Irish over Southern Cal? Robert Woods sent a tweet to the Twitter handle, @iworship, saying "hahaha sick, what did you guys do today". What is the name registered to @iworship? Ronaiah. How many people is this person following? Two. Who are the two people? Te'o and the deceased/fictitious girlfriend. Robert Woods went to USC, Ronaiah's father played at USC and Arizona fullback, Reagan Mauia claims to have actually met the fake person while with another former USC player, Troy Polamalu. To his creadit, since last night, Mauja and Polamalu have both said that Troy isn't connected to this. 2125. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Only when he hired Doug Richert did the fortunes of that team begin to rise." Doug actually came East with Rod when he was just 16 years old. They were a group of young Californian gearheads that, along with noted ass clown Wlodyka, he had run and crew his team. Doug was there the whole time, and when Suitcase Jake packed up and left in May 1980, he was the natural successor at 20 years old. What does that tell you about that team? "Of course, they had help in 1980, as every other team that ran the full schedule other than Petty Enterprises were going to change drivers for 1981" The #2 team also had turmoil that year as Jake, Dale's mentor and somebody who really looked out for Dale, left after the World 600. "You say that Richard Childress blew a lot of engines trying to keep up. Virtually all of Elliott's competition that year had the same problem." Nobody in the Top 13 in points had more mechanical failures than Dale. He had 9, next closest was Terry Labonte with 7. Harry Gant had 6, Darrell (the eventual champion!) and Bobby had 5 apiece, and everyone else had 4 or less. "And also, Dale did not always get "waxed" as you said it on the plate tracks in the non-RP era. First, Dale DID win the 1984 Talladega 500 for his first win with Childress." So they had a grand total of 1 win at Daytona and Dega before 1990. "Let's also not forget that he could have won the 1986 Daytona 500, and should have won the 1987 Daytona 500." Bodine in '86 and Bill in '87 led 101 and 104 laps respectively while Dale led 34 and 16 in those races. "Also, you say about what Hendrick did with the Old Monte Carlo. Except for 1986, they were pretty pedestrian with that car, as well." Considering they were a start up team in NASCAR's most stacked era, '84-'88 was quite respectable for HMS. Besides, If you look at their winning %, they were much better with the old Monte Carlo and KILLER with the new one. Of full time HMS teams, they won 6.4% of their races (THEIR races, not the overall races) from 1984 thru the 8th race of '89. From the 9th race of '89 thru the end of '94, they won 3.5% of their races. They actually won more races in their first 5 and 1/3 years of existance than they did in the 5 and 2/3 seasons that followed. And in '95 and '96 they won 11.8% of their races. "But RCR's downfall began with two events in 1996." Actually their downfall began in 1995 when they fell way behind with the new Monte Carlo. For most of '95 they were behind Sterling Marlin and MMM in points. Meanwhile, Hendrick shot straight to the top and have been there ever since. But RCR still got 5 wins and 2nd in final points cause Dale was still Dale. Then Dale got hurt in '96 (while in the thick of the title hunt despite being even slower than the year before) and Richard started a 2nd team for '97 (10 years too late) with noted bum Mike Skinner and ran them as two separate teams. Richard Childress ladies and gentlemen, Richard Childress. 2126. 44andJoe posted: 01.17.2013 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >and Richard started a 2nd team for '97 (10 years too late) with noted bum Mike Skinner Who was, to be fair, Truck Series Champion. We didn't know at the time that the Truck Series championship would be even more of an albatross with regards to Cup success than the Busch Series championship was. 2127. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I will say that if Te'o is truly innocent, he must have been really freaked out when his fake, dead girlfriend called him several months after her death." As mentioned earlier my inner skeptic is going nuts over this whole story, BUT if it does come to pass that everything he claims about being duped is true, how freaky must that have been? Has anyone else ever had a dream about hanging out with or being called by somebody they knew that had passed away, realizing it halfway through the dream, then wake up scared shitless? I know I have. After my grandmother died in 2004, I had a dream a few months later that I was talking on the phone with her, and I suddenly realized in the middle of the dream she couldn't be talking to me cause she had passed and I couldn't even move when I woke up I was so freaked out. Imagine if that really happened! 2128. David posted: 01.17.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "After my grandmother died in 2004..." My grandmother died in 2004 too. But I never had a dream like that. 2129. murb posted: 01.17.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes!!! After having the likes of Danica and Robby in it, the #7 will finally have some credibility again!!!! 2130. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.17.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How much says the 49ers win it all? 2131. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If they play like they are capable of for two more games the Niners can definitely do it. But they have been inconsistent. Depends on which team shows up. Hopefully the good team. They have the best chance of preventing the Pats from winning it all. As showed on that Sunday Night game, they are a matchup nightmare for New England. Hopefully this time they won't spend 10 minutes away from man to man coverage while Brady picks them apart for four quick game tying TDs before finally getting their shit together in the end. 2132. Paul posted: 01.17.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Reutimann will drive the #83 car for BK Racing full-time in 2013. As for the NFL playoffs, I'm picking the Ravens and Falcons to win, which would make the Super Bowl "The Battle of the Dirty Birds". I was so happy last weekend when the Falcons won and Tony Gonzalez got his first career playoff win in his 16th season, even though they did so by beating the Seahawks, who I predicted would make the Super Bowl. I'd love it if the Falcons beat the 49ers this weekend and give Gonzalez at the very least a Super Bowl appearance to put on his Hall of Fame resume. And I think that this will be the game that determines whether or not Joe Flacco is an elite quarterback. So far in his career he has proven to be a poor man's Eli Manning: Mediocre in the regular season with flashes of brilliance along the way, and doesn't screw it up for his team in the playoffs, but ultimately falls short of the Super Bowl. His last game against the Broncos was probably Flacco's shining moment in the NFL as he outplayed Peyton in the 4th quarter and overtime, and won the game for his team. Skip Bayless of ESPN wrote a great article about Flacco today, basically stating that while Flacco has had his moments of being "Cool Joe" (sort of like "Joe Cool"), he believes that Flacco's moments of greatness were flukes and that he isn't capable of leading his team to a Super Bowl, calling him "Joe Fluke-o". While I think that nickname is a little harsh, I do agree that this may be the game that determines how good Joe Flacco is. If he wants to be considered an elite quarterback, all he has to do is beat Tom Brady's Patriots and make it to the Super Bowl. If he can do that, then at the very least he can say that he has a winning playoff record against the Patriots, something most other quarterbacks can't say. 2133. Paul posted: 01.17.2013 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, I saw a report that came out today that suggested that the University of Oregon may have some recruiting violations going against them from the past few seasons. This would make sense because former head coach Chip Kelly very quickly went from saying "I want to stay in Oregon" to "Where do I sign?", as he now has accepted an offer to coach the Philadelphia Eagles in the NFL next year. If this is the case, then Pete Carroll (who I like) has set a precedent for college coaches to ditch town and take a job as an NFL head coach in order to avoid suffering any penalties (loss of scholarships, ban from Bowl Games, ban from TV, etc.) that may be placed upon his team for violating NCAA regulations against paying the players money. Pete Carroll of course had been the head coach at the University of Southern California for nine seasons when he "jumped the sinking ship" and went to the Seattle Seahawks of the NFL in 2010. Although I can't prove that that was Carroll's motivation for leaving USC, the circumstances involved gives me reason to believe that the NCAA violations his school committed were the main reason for his departure. And if there is in fact an investigation by the NCAA against Oregon over past recruiting violations, then I will believe that that was Chip Kelly's main motivation for leaving town as well. 2134. cjs3872 posted: 01.17.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, what does that say when Terry Labonte had seven mechanical failures, considering he was as conservative as it got. Harry Gant's six mechanical failures should not be surprising considering just how fragile that team's equipment was (Gant only finished eight race in 1987), and DiGard was on the way out in 1985. Remember that they were in trouble in 1984. And as for your assertion of the difference between laps led for Earnhardt and the eventual winners of the 1986 and '87 Daytona 500s, remember that Earnhardt had a tire problem early (lap 24) and then got stuck behind Neil Bonnett on that restart when Bonnett's transmission broke while leading, and he ended up in the back as a result, and it was 50 laps before he even saw the front again, and he had handling issues for a good part of the 1987 Daytona 500. But at the end of both the 1986 and '87 races, he had the best car in the field. He had Geoff Bodine beat before he ran out of fuel, and he had Bill Elliott beat before that illadvised two-tire pit stop dropped him from the lead to fifth. That's why I say that he could have won both races and should have won in '87. And they were very good in 1995. Sure they were in a dogfight with the #4 of Morgan-McClure, but 1995 was the best year that team ever had. A string of poor finishes in July and August dug that team in a hole they could never get out of. But RCR was very good in 1995. In fact, they finished where they should have, as they were the second-best team that entire season, and the same is true regarding the #4 Morgan-McClure team, as they were third-best that year. Their downfall began with that horrific decision that Childress made, naming co-crew chiefs for 1996, and they never recovered from that. Remember that Dale was not doing that well, even before his Talladega crash, as Hendrick Motorsports and Dale Jarrett were already taking over that season. And again I say that Hendrick Motorsports went to the top as a result of the decision to hire Terry Labonte in 1994. Terry had his winningest season to that point, winning three times, Jeff Gordon finally tapped into his unlimited potential, and Ken Schrader, although winless that year, had by far his greatest season, finishing fourth in points, behind only Earnhardt, Mark Martin, and Rusty Wallace. And murb, Tommy Baldwin will continue to deface the #7, as they won't run the races more than half the time this season, if that much, and having a driver like Dave Blaney, who isn't capable of running up front any more, except at the plate tracks, doesn't help either. And by the way, everyone's talking about the 49ers possibly winning the Super Bowl over New England. I don't even have them getting by Atlanta this weekend, as I see both Harbaugh brothers coming up short again, as I see Atlanta facing New England in the Super Bowl. Both games should be competitive, but I see both home teams pulling it out, as I see the inexperience of the 49ers' QB coming back to haunt them, while the very conditions that gave Baltimore the edge over Denver last week (cold weather, QB arm strength, experience in tight games, etc.) will not exist, as New England has all the elements to beat Baltimore if those conditions existed, which they won't (it's expected to be about 40 degrees at kickoff in Foxborough). In fact, though I think both games will be competitve, if at least one is a one-sided game, I wouldn't be surprised. But I like Atlanta because of the QB, and I like New England because of the QB and the head coach. 2135. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.17.2013 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And they were very good in 1995. Sure they were in a dogfight with the #4 of Morgan-McClure, but 1995 was the best year that team ever had. A string of poor finishes in July and August dug that team in a hole they could never get out of. But RCR was very good in 1995." MMM had the best year they ever had cause that new Monte Carlo was un-freaking-touchable. MMM suddenly jumped a level that season, Hendrick jumped up to the top level, even the #29 Meineke team which had half the funding of the top dogs, and a non Winston Cup superstar level driver in Steve Grissom jumped to a Top 10 team. Basically all Chevy teams jumped except RCR which stayed exactly where they were, causing them to be passed. Why didn't they jump like the rest of the bowtie brigade? Lack of engineering. (Ironically Dale's top rival, Rusty Wallace, saw his career fall off that same year due to Penske's over-engineering) "Remember that Dale was not doing that well, even before his Talladega crash, as Hendrick Motorsports and Dale Jarrett were already taking over that season." Again, RCR was way behind on the engineering and technology front, and it was really showing up in 1996. Yet he was still just 12 points out of the Winston Cup lead going into that fateful Dega race. But he was still Dale Earnhardt and he doing what he did his entire career: carry cars to places no other driver could. "And again I say that Hendrick Motorsports went to the top as a result of the decision to hire Terry Labonte in 1994." While hiring Terry (thought to have been long washed up at the time of his hiring) was an excellent decision, they rose to the top because they were in front of the engineering wave, had the new Monte Carlo which was like steroids to the Chevy teams (except RCR of course), had the undeniable talent of Gordon and Evernham, and perhaps their biggest asset, they were not afraid to cheat. HMS never has. The last 25 years have been filled with a laundry list of Hendrick cheating violations. And that is just the times they were caught! Gordon and Evernham never would have been caught with their illegal suspension at Charlotte in 1995 had their tire not fallen off. 2136. murb posted: 01.17.2013 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And murb, Tommy Baldwin will continue to deface the #7, as they won't run the races more than half the time this season, if that much, and having a driver like Dave Blaney, who isn't capable of running up front any more, except at the plate tracks, doesn't help either." I never said they were gonna run good. I'm just saying that at least Baldwin and Blaney are respectable individuals, unlike Robby and Danica. We frequently talk about Danica's pathetic sense of entitlement and what not, so I'll give her a break right now. But let's refresh our memories on another Nascar princess. When I think of Robby Gordon, I think of two things. First of all, I think of insane driving ability. I admit, he's one of the most versatile and talented racing drivers of all time. But the other thing I think of when I think of Robby is the word "complain". He's done nothing but complain his whole career, and he has no one to blame but himself and his own stubbornness for his lack of success in Nascar. I don't know, I've always thought that 7 was Alan Kulwicki's number. Obviously, he was an extremely classful competitor, so it's been a bit painful to see these clowns driving that number the past few years. Just like how it would have been painful to see a disrespectful tool like Kurt Busch climb into the 43 like he was rumored to a year or so ago. Or how it is going to be dreadful to hear about how Austin Dillon is carrying on the "legend of Earnhardt and the 3" even though he really won't be. 2137. cjs3872 posted: 01.17.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So murb, you're just talking about the people involved in the #7 car, not how they might do on the track. Fair enough. But as for drivers, we talk about Robby Gordon and Danica Patrick (in the Nationwide Series), but let's have a look at some of the others who have driven the #7 car over the last 20 years in the Cup series. That list includes the likes of Casey Atwood, Jimmy Spencer, Michael Waltrip, and Mike Wallace. In fact, the #7 car has not won on the Cup circuit since Watkins Glen in 1996, a race known best for the pit strategy that was born that day of pitting under green. Paul Andrews figured that if you pitted under green and then a caution came out, that you stood to gain since you wouldn't get lapped. And since NASCAR makes all the cars that pit on a caution flag lap go behind all those that don't stop instead of blending them in where they come out, that give drivers that stop under green on a road course a big advantage, so Andrews came up with the "30-30-30" pit strategy, a derivitive of which is used in every road course race, as well as at Pocono, because if you're running within 10 seconds of the lead there, you won't lose a lap by stopping under green, and if a caution comes out, a driver that pits will end up ahead of anyone that doesn't. And that situation even comes up on shorter tracks now when a driver pits and the caution flag comes out while he's on pit road, because the field is frozen and is forced by the rules to slow down. A classic case of this came in the race in which Jeff Gordon tied Dale Earnhardt, Sr. on the all-time wins list at Phoenix, because that's how he got the lead. Another came in 2010 at Auto Club Speedway when Jimmie Johnson hit pit road, and as he was in pit lane, the caution came out, allowing him to complete his pit stop without losing a lap, so when everyone pitted under caution, Jimmie got the lead because he entered pit road under green just before the caution came out, freezing and slowing the field. 2138. 44andJoe posted: 01.17.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The above comments amuse me, as Danica has never driven the #7 in cup. 2139. murb posted: 01.17.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The above comments amuse me, as Danica has never driven the #7 in cup." I know, but she's been synonymous with it ever since she's been in Nascar. If you asked a casual fan to do word association, and told them "7 car", they would instantly say "Danica Patrick". 2140. David posted: 01.17.2013 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That list includes the likes of Casey Atwood, Jimmy Spencer, Michael Waltrip, and Mike Wallace." Don't forget DSFF's Yankee buddy Geoff Bodine (said in jest). "In fact, the #7 car has not won on the Cup circuit since Watkins Glen in 1996, a race known best for the pit strategy that was born that day of pitting under green. Paul Andrews figured that if you pitted under green and then a caution came out, that you stood to gain since you wouldn't get lapped. And since NASCAR makes all the cars that pit on a caution flag lap go behind all those that don't stop instead of blending them in where they come out, that give drivers that stop under green on a road course a big advantage, so Andrews came up with the "30-30-30" pit strategy, a derivative of which is used in every road course race, as well as at Pocono, because if you're running within 10 seconds of the lead there, you won't lose a lap by stopping under green, and if a caution comes out, a driver that pits will end up ahead of anyone that doesn't." This same guy did the math for Alan Kulwicki during the 1992 finale so he could lead the most laps, and ultimately clinch the championship that day. Can you say "underrated crew chief"? 2141. cjs3872 posted: 01.18.2013 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, Paul Andrews never left that team between the time of Alan Kulwicki's death and the time of Geoff Bodine's final wins, which were with the same team, as he had bought it in May of 1993, on the very same weekend on which he won at Sears Point, the fianl race won by Bud Moore. But there's one thing often forgotten about what happened in that 1992 finale where it concerned Kulwicki's battle with Bill Elliott for the championship, and that is the role Terry Labonte played in that drama. Kulwicki stayed out to lead that extra lap over Elliott, but had Labonte not stayed out an extra two laps himself, things would have ended up a lot different. when Kulwicki pitted, Labonte got the lead and led enough laps to keep Elliott from leading the most, and many believed it was Labonte's way of getting back at Junior Johnson for releasing him in 1989. By leading those laps, Labonte prevented Elliott from leading the most laps, and thus prevented Junior Johnson from claiming another championship. And who's to say that Paul Andrews had any input in that decisions anyway? That decision may have been made by Kulwicki from the cockpit. After all, Kulwicki was like A.J. Foyt in that he wanted to do things his way, and the risky call to stay out a few more laps may have been Kulwicki's call, not Andrews'. Of course, that call proved to be the championship winning decision, regardless of who made it. Let's also not forget that had it not been for a flat tire, a similar call would likely have won Kulwicki the 1989 Daytona 500, as he was on the same strategy as was Darrell Waltrip, and he was ahead of Waltrip when his tire went flat with four laps to go. 2142. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.18.2013 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The #7 will always be Alan's number. Sometimes people just take a number and make it all their own. Here are some examples of numbers that, no matter how many people drove it before or after, it is synonymous with them: 2 Rusty Wallace (says this Brad fan) 3 Dale 6 Mark Martin 7 Alan Kulwicki 9 Bill Elliott 11 Cale Yarborough (saying something considering the Murderer's Row that has driven that number) 12 Bobby Allison 14 AJ Foyt (I don't care what his NASCAR record is with that number) 17 Matt Kenseth 20 Tony Stewart (this season will take some getting used to) 21 David Pearson 22 Fireball Roberts 24 Jeff Gordon 25 Tim Richmond 26 Junior Johnson (the flying banana) 28 Davey Allison 33 Harry Gant 42 Lee Petty 43 The King 48 Jimmie Johnson 61 Richie Evans 71 Dave Marcis (and his wing tips) 72 Benny Parsons Some curiosities: the fact nobody ever really made the #15 of Bud Moore's their own. He had some of the greatest ever driving for him, but it was never for long. Also the fact Darrell never stuck around anywhere long enough to make a number his. Even his longtime #17 is more synonymous with Kenseth. 2143. 18fan posted: 01.18.2013 - 2:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you make an excellent point about Bud Moore's team. When I think of the #15, I think of a Ford owned by Bud Moore. It is more synonymous, at least in my opinion, with Bud himself than with any specific driver. Also, I would like to know what you guys think the most impressive 5-year stretches since 1975. The entire stretch must be from 1975 or later. I definitely have in mind: Cale 1976-1980, Dale 1986-1990, Jeff 1995-1999, and Jimmie 2006-2010. I am eventually going to do some comparisons to determine which stretch was the best statistically. If you feel there is a stretch that I should include, please let me know. 2144. cjs3872 posted: 01.18.2013 - 2:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, if you're going to go by that as far as car numbers/drivers or teams go, I've got some others for you, and not all of them are entirely from NASCAR: 1-Donnie Allison (Hoss Ellington) 2-Rusty Wallace 3-Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 4-Sterling Marlin/Ernie Irvan (Morgan-McClure) 5-Terry Labonte 6-Mark Martin or Cotton Owens 7-Alan Kulwicki 8-Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 9-Bill Elliott 10-Ricky Rudd 11-Darrell Waltrip/Cale Yarborough 12-Bobby Allison 13-Smokey Yunick 14-A.J. Foyt 15-Bud Moore or Michael Waltrip 16-Greg Biffle 17-Matt Kenseth 18-Bobby Labonte 19-Henley Gray 20-Tony Stewart 21-David Pearson (The Wood Brothers) 22-Fireball Roberts 24-Jeff Gordon 25-Tim Richmond 27-Rusty Wallace 28-Fred Lorenzen 29-Kevin Harvick 30-Michael Waltrip 31-Jeff Burton 33-Harry Gant 34-Wendell Scott 39-Ryan Newman 41-Jim Paschal 42-Lee Petty 43-Richard Petty 44-Terry Labonte 47-Ron Bouchard 48-Jimmie Johnson (with an honorable mention to Dan Gurney) 52-Jimmy Means 54-Lennie Pond 55-Benny Parsons 56-Jim Hurtubise (still the only driver to win a NASCAR Cup race in car #56) 70-J.D. McDuffie 71-Dave Marcis/Bobby Isaac 72-Benny Parsons 75-Neil Bonnett 77-Salt Walther (I know he never used that number in NASCAR) 78-Regan Smith 83-Lake Speed 87-Joe Nemechek 88-Dale Jarrett 90-Junie Donlavey 97-Kurt Busch 98-Troy Ruttman (brother Joe used it in NASCAR, with an honorable mention to J.C. Agajanian and Parnelli Jones) 99-Jeff Burton And as for the greatest five-year stretches, since your requirement says they must all be from 1975 or later, here's my listing of them: -Cale Yarborough (1976-'80) -Bobby Allison (1978-'83, and yes I know that's six years) -Darrell Waltrip (1981-'85) -Bill Elliott (1985-'89) -Dale Earnhardt, Sr. (1986-'90) -Dale Earnhardt, Sr. (1990-'94) -Jeff Gordon (1995-'99) -Jimmie Johnson (2006-'10) 2145. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.18.2013 - 4:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, you like Atlanta over San Fran because of the quarterback, but Kaepernick is a way better quarterback than Ryan. You have to consider that all of San Fran's late season issues was because they saw themselves as already in the playoffs and therefore able to just toy with their opponents, hence their collapse against New England. If they don't stop playing the man defense, they win that game by at least 35 points. 2146. cjs3872 posted: 01.18.2013 - 9:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, I also like the experience of Matt Ryan. I also have this feeling that the 49ers will do something to throw away the game, much as what happened last year. Remember that lack of experience is what cost them last year, and that's the one thing that I like with Ryan, especially now that he finally won a playoff game. And for some reason, I don't trust the 49er receivers, either. And frankly, there's only one coach I trust among the four remaining, and he's in New England. 2147. David posted: 01.18.2013 - 9:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David, Paul Andrews never left that team between the time of Alan Kulwicki's death and the time of Geoff Bodine's final wins, which were with the same team, as he had bought it in May of 1993, on the very same weekend on which he won at Sears Point, the fianl race won by Bud Moore." I knew that. Your point is? "But there's one thing often forgotten about what happened in that 1992 finale where it concerned Kulwicki's battle with Bill Elliott for the championship, and that is the role Terry Labonte played in that drama. Kulwicki stayed out to lead that extra lap over Elliott, but had Labonte not stayed out an extra two laps himself, things would have ended up a lot different. when Kulwicki pitted, Labonte got the lead and led enough laps to keep Elliott from leading the most, and many believed it was Labonte's way of getting back at Junior Johnson for releasing him in 1989. By leading those laps, Labonte prevented Elliott from leading the most laps, and thus prevented Junior Johnson from claiming another championship." I knew you would bring that up. "And who's to say that Paul Andrews had any input in that decisions anyway? That decision may have been made by Kulwicki from the cockpit. After all, Kulwicki was like A.J. Foyt in that he wanted to do things his way, and the risky call to stay out a few more laps may have been Kulwicki's call, not Andrews'. Of course, that call proved to be the championship winning decision, regardless of who made it. Let's also not forget that had it not been for a flat tire, a similar call would likely have won Kulwicki the 1989 Daytona 500, as he was on the same strategy as was Darrell Waltrip, and he was ahead of Waltrip when his tire went flat with four laps to go." Well, I've seen several sources credit Andrews for the call. He seemed like a pretty intelligent crew chief, but I won't discredit Kulwicki. 2148. David posted: 01.18.2013 - 11:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, how about #40 for Pete Hamilton? Or #89 for Morgan Shepherd? Or #32 for Ricky Craven? 2149. Paul posted: 01.18.2013 - 11:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are a few numbers that I have that you guys didn't list: 00-David Reutimann, Sam Ard, Buckshot Jones 01-Joe Nemechek 02-Curtis Crider, Hermie Sadler (he started to drive that car at about the time that I started watching NASCAR) 07-Clint Bowyer 08-Shane Hmiel (even though he only drove a couple races in this car in 2005) 09-James Finch (like Bud Moore's #15, I associate this number more with the owner than a specific driver) 23-Bill Davis (same as Moore and Finch) 26-Jamie McMurray/"The 5th Roush car" 32-Ricky Craven 36-Ken Schrader 38-Elliott Sadler 40-Sterling Marlin 45-Kyle/Adam Petty 46-Carl Long (mostly because of his flip at Rockingham that got him some notoriety) 49-BAM Racing 55-Bobby Hamilton (I associate him with the #55 more than I do Benny Parsons) 60-Carl Edwards 62-Brendan Gaughan 66-Steve Wallace 74-Randy LaJoie 81-Randy MacDonald 89-Morgan Shepherd 94-Bill Elliott 2150. jabber1990 posted: 01.18.2013 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) everyone is so quick to critize fox or ESPN for their terrible actual race commenting is this guy any better? just asking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlYHQa11CsU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeiyHxO3UwM 2151. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.18.2013 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am talking about drivers who got in a car with a number and ran off a stretch that goes down in NASCAR lure, absolutely making that number their own. I could list just about every number and the driver moost associated with it, but did they do enough to truly be remembered and simply own that number. And success isn't always the greatest indicator. Let's take the #2 and #27 and Rusty Wallace. He exploded onto the NASCAR scene in that #27 car, give Bill a great run for his long awaited '88 title, then stunned Dale and the #3 team in 1989 winning his title. But did he ever look better than he did in that #2 car? He was never more dominant, but just couldn't squeeze past Earnhardt like he did in '89. And both Dale and Brad have won championships driving the #2 car. But Dale was in it for a short time, and Brad hasn't had nearly long enough to make it his own. And there are a few numbers that have logjams. The #11 immediately comes to mind. Darrell and that Dew car were beyond dominant, and Ned's #11 Ford in the mid 60's with the beautiful blue scheme and white wheel hubs is also iconic. But Cale and that ugly Holly Farms car ruled the sport and had the first 3peat, the only 3peat in NASCAR's first 60 years. The #28 also comes to mind. Fred Lorenzen had his beautiful pearl white 60's Ford with blue numbers, and then there was Buddy Baker in that badass Gray Ghost, the black and silver beast of a Chevrolet that Buddy pressed his huge foot to the floor of. And who can forget Cale driving that #28 Hardee's car and ruling the superspeedways? But nobody owned it quite like Davey in that gorgeous white, black, and gold Texaco car, then the equally visually appealing black and orange car he ran at the end of his career, 2152. Paul posted: 01.18.2013 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know that was your main point, DSFF, but I couldn't resist joining in on the fun. 2153. jabber1990 posted: 01.18.2013 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) everyone is so quick to critize fox or ESPN for their terrible actual race commenting is this guy any better? just asking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlYHQa11CsU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeiyHxO3UwM 2154. Daniel posted: 01.18.2013 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fords are fast at Charlotte as Almirola, Edwards, Mears, and Ambrose sweep the top 4 in testing. 2155. cjs3872 posted: 01.18.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Daniel, what concerns me is the speeds. Almirola's fastest lap was over 194 MPH. I don't care what NASCAR says, they've got to slow these cars down about 15 MPH, because you can't race competitvely running 194 MPH around a 1.5 mile track. The aero-push problem is going to be even worse than ever, the racing groove will, in effect, be narrower, and the cars wil not be able to stay close together becaus of trying to run them close together. Almirola's being at the top of the board should not be such a big surprise. After all, he DID win the pole for the 600 last year and dominated the race at Kansas before tire problems knocked him out of contention. But they can't run Charlotte at 194 MPH, because that's 10-15 MPH too fast for that particular track. How to slow the cars down, I don't know, but cutting the size of the engine is not the answer. and I think NASCAR has got to be concerned about the speeds that are being run, because if they run 194 at a test, they'll run 197 or 198 when they get their top-caliber stuff. And remember that I predicted the possibility of a 200 MPH lap at a place like Charlotte within two years if something isn't done soon to slow the cars down. If NASCAR's not careful, we might see a 200 MPH lap there this year, and you can't race at a 1.5 mile track at those speeds. And I hate to think what they might run at Atlanta when that track is repaved in a few years. (205-210 MPH, perhaps?) 2156. David posted: 01.19.2013 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does John Wreck Weekly? David Smith wrote an article today, using numbers to play NASCAR MythBusters. He evaluated six drivers commonly known as chronic crashers, Paul Menard, Brian Scott, Danica Patrick, our favorite John Wes, Johnny Sauter, and Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. Only two, Scott and Patrick, were identified as crashing consistenly. The others' perceived status as such was proven to be fiction. In Townley's case, he had a Crash Frequency of 0.24 last season (the series average was 0.30), which was less than the likes of Todd Bodine (0.64), Ron Hornaday (0.50), Ty Dillon (0.32), and series champion James Buescher (0.27). All of those names, except for Dillon, are champions. Townley will drive for Red Horse Racing next season. His Crash Frequency is 0.4 lower than Bodine's, whom he will replace. 2157. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fun fact: John Wes Townley has wrecked in 100% of his career Cup laps, as he wrecked on his opening practice lap at Pocono last season, and took himself out of the car immediately afterwards. He also crashed himself in the ARCA race at Kansas while running in 2nd, hit the wall in the Nationwide race at Charlotte while running on the lead lap in 15th place in the closing laps, and pulled at Dale Jr. by bump drafting too hard and wrecking both SS-Green Light trucks at Talladega last season. I agree, he has improved from his '09-10 seasons when he was almost literally wrecking on a weekly basis. But having one good season in terms of not wrecking that much isn't enough for him to shake off the "John Wrecks Weekly" moniker. If he keeps his wrecking to a minimum for the rest of his career, maybe. But unfortunately for him, he has built himself a reputation that he may never overcome. Besides, that nickname just rolls off the tongue too well to just stop using it, even if he does continue to improve. 2158. cjs3872 posted: 01.19.2013 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course David, the question regarding that is, how often does he crash beacuse he's running better than he's usually capable of, rather than crashing due to someone else's mistake, oil on the track, a mechanical problem, such as a blown engine or suspension failure, or a blown or flat tire? For instance, Stenhouse often crashes because he just simply runs too hard, Buescher crashed last year because of flat tires or getting involved in speedway wrecks, and Todd Bodine crashed because he simply got run over in half the races, it seemed. Sometimes, you have to look beyond the stats when it comes to crashes and check out why some drivers crash more than others. And since when has Paul Menard been known as someone that crashes often? I've always thought of him being the exact oposite kind of driver, a driver that runs in mid-pack, but always seems to take care of his equipment and very rarely crashes. That's why he's been a outside threat to make the Chase each of the last two years, and been a 15th-20th place driver in the points, finishing 16th and 17th in his two years with Richard Childress. You don't finish there in the points in Childress' conservative equipment by crashing. 2159. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard exhibits RCR's "Really Conservative Racing" moniker incredibly well. That driving style won't win him many races (especially considering the current shape of RCR), but it will keep lower the amount of wrecked race cars they have the fix, and will keep him employed. Plus, he has the big sponsorship package and isn't a cancer in the garage area, so he has great job security at RCR. 2160. murb posted: 01.19.2013 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm interested to see how Townley does at Red Horse. Will he continue to show flashes of brilliance like he did a bit last year in Trucks, or will he revert back to JWT Classic? It'll be interesting. And as far as Paul Menard goes, I agree with CJS. I've never thought of him to be a crasher. If I was a team owner and had to pick a guy to drive my second car (let's say that my first car has a superstar driver in it), and I wanted a solid guy, Paul is one of the first names I think of. He's perfect for a wingman or foil type of role on a team, and like I said, he's extremely solid and rarely makes mistakes. And he has sponsorship. So its really no wonder to me why he's been able to stay in Cup. I have no idea how that David Smith guy thought of him as a crasher. 2161. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 2:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to David Smith's crash frequency data, Ty Dillon and James Buescher were more wreck-prone in 2012 than JWT. Of course, it doesn't figure in external factors such as flat tires and getting caught up in other drivers' wrecks (and I include Kyle Larson's divebomb that knocked Ty out of the championship race at Homestead in this category), which was the cause of most (if not all) of their wrecks in 2012. I can't recall Townley suffering a flat tire or getting wrecked by another driver so much as I recall him either wrecking by himself or wrecking others and getting caught up in his own mess (such as at Talladega). 2162. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.19.2013 - 5:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Larson was hardly divebombing. He went into the corner low and Dillon pushed onto the apron. 2163. cjs3872 posted: 01.19.2013 - 8:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Dillon may have been more aggressive than what he needed to be in that incident, but Larson could also have used better judgement, especially since he had just been in a championship battle himself, but then again he's so inexperienced that he might not have known better. I think a more experienced driver would not have pulled such a risky move, especially considering what was at stake for the driver he was trying to make the move on. 2164. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.19.2013 - 8:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It wasn't that risky of a move considering there were only a few laps left. It doesn't change the fact that if Dillon holds his line like a professional would there is no wreck. I hate, violently hate, that NASCAR tells drivers to just fall over for title contenders, particularly Chase drivers. If I'm a driver out there and my choice is to dive-bomb the corner and win with a chance of wrecking a title contender or finishing second, I'm going for the win! I don't care about the other guys really as long as I don't kill them. I wouldn't be Curtis Turner, but I might be like Dale Earnhardt, unafraid to use that bumper if necessary. Even if I'm racing for 25th, unless they blue flag me, I'm not moving over for the leader. As my favorite coach of all-time Herm Edwards would say: "You play to win the game!" 2165. David posted: 01.19.2013 - 10:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dadgum. I just lit the fuse. "And since when has Paul Menard been known as someone that crashes often?" I don't know. Ask David Smith. My theory is that some fans don't like to see drivers get into NASCAR's top ranks via family sponsorship, especially when it brings big bucks to the team who hire them, so some fans like to see said drivers fail miserably. That's just a thought. It may sound a bit outlandish. And I agree with you guys about Paul Menard. While it is true that his first few years in Cup were lousy, he has improved a great deal. His PEER last season was 1.375. John Wes Townley's Terminal Crash Frequency (rate of crash DNFs) last season was 0.10. Of course, his PEER was -0.190. 2166. Scott B posted: 01.19.2013 - 11:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think in Stenhouse's case he's perceived as more of a crasher than he really is becuase he sometimes makes risky moves and gets away with them. Maybe we need a risk-taking index, who wants to tackle that project? :) 2167. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse is perceived as a crasher because he has the tendency to wreck himself when there is no reason to. Such examples of this would be at Dover when he crashed while sitting solidly in 2nd place early in the race, Kentucky 1 when he ran over his own pit crew during a green flag pit stop (then proceeded to blame Erik Darnell for his own mistake), Kentucky 2 when he hit the wall while running in 8th after having to start at the end of the longest line for a penalty on the restart, Montreal when he tried to bulldoze Villeneuve out of the lead in a non-passing corner only to wreck himself, and the Cup race at Homestead when he was the only driver to crash on one of the easiest tracks to race on in NASCAR. It's true that he doesn't wreck as frequently as drivers like Brian Scott and Danica, but a driver of his talent should know better than to race too hard and wreck himself as a result of his reckless driving as frequently as he does. It's not that he wrecks a lot, but he wrecks from his own doing when there's no reason to race too hard far too often. As for Kyle Larson's divebomb, look I get that he was going for the win and that may have been his last chance to catch Kyle Busch with 4 laps to go, and I can respect that. But he made the divebomb way too late. Normally a driver will drive into the corner deep on entry and then back off once he gets to the middle of the corner. But if you look at the replay, it appears that he ducked inside of Ty Dillon entering the corner, but didn't begin accelerating until the center of the corner when he made contact with Ty. Also, you'll notice that Ty gave him room because he saw Larson was trying to pass him upon corner entry, and didn't move down the track until the middle of the corner because he was told he was "clear", not knowing that Larson began to accelerate at the same time Ty began to move down the race track, and that's when they collided. So I strongly disagree with anyone who blames Ty Dillon for that wreck, because he gave Larson room entering the corner, and moved down in the center because he was "clear", which ironically was the same time that Larson began to accelerate in the corner. I don't blame Ty one bit for the wreck, and I think a more experienced driver (even an aggressive driver like Kyle or Tony), would not have made that move the way Larson did. I agree, Larson was going for the win and that may have been his last chance at catching Kyle Busch in the closing laps. But in case you didn't notice, Ty Dillon (even though he gets unfairly scrutinized for being Richard Childress' grandson) has as much right to the race track as Larson does, and I don't like the idea that he should have just rolled over for Larson when he clearly had position on him. And Nico, I'm with you that championship contenders shouldn't be treated any better on the race track than non-championship contenders. For example, I have no problem with Ricky Rudd (a non-championship contender) wrecking Dale Earnhardt (a championship contender) at North Wilkesboro '89, because championship contender or not, every driver has the right to the same amount of "real estate" as anybody else. Now, I'm not saying that I'm defending Rudd for that wreck because I think it's very clear that that was his fault, but I'm not going to sit hear and say "Well, he shouldn't have wrecked Earnhardt because Earnhardt was in the midst of a title fight and Rudd wasn't." But I will say that that was Rudd's fault, much like I will say that the Homestead crash was Kyle Larson's fault. I don't care that Larson's divebomb knocked Ty Dillon out of the championship battle because I don't think any driver deserves better treatment than others, but I do care that Larson knocked Ty out of having a solid finish in that race because of a move that could have been avoided. 2168. 44andJoe posted: 01.19.2013 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Random data for the day: career starts in the All-Star Race. Mark Martin 23 Terry Labonte 20 Jeff Gordon 19 Rusty Wallace 18 Bill Elliott 17 Dale Jarrett 17 Bobby Labonte 17 Dale Earnhardt 16 Ricky Rudd 16 Darrell Waltrip 16 Geoff Bodine 15 Tony Stewart 14 Michael Waltrip 14 Jeff Burton 13 Dale Earnhardt Jr 13 Sterling Marlin 13 Kevin Harvick 12 Matt Kenseth 12 Kurt Busch 11 Jimmie Johnson 11 Ryan Newman 11 Kyle Petty 11 Harry Gant 10 Greg Biffle 9 Kasey Kahne 9 Ernie Irvan 8 Ken Schrader 8 Morgan Shepherd 8 Davey Allison 7 Ward Burton 7 Kyle Busch 7 Carl Edwards 7 Denny Hamlin 6 Jeremy Mayfield 6 Jamie McMurray 6 Joe Nemechek 6 Lake Speed 6 Bobby Hamilton 5 Bobby Hillin Jr 5 Greg Sacks 5 Elliott Sadler 5 Brett Bodine 4 Neil Bonnett 4 Clint Bowyer 4 Ricky Craven 4 Brad Keselowski 4 Alan Kulwicki 4 Richard Petty 4 Cale Yarborough 4 Martin Truex Jr 4 Bobby Allison 3 John Andretti 3 Casey Mears 3 Steve Park 3 Phil Parsons 3 Jimmy Spencer 3 Hut Stricklin 3 Brian Vickers 3 AJ Allmendinger 2 Johnny Benson Jr 2 Todd Bodine 2 Derrike Cope 2 Robby Gordon 2 Sam Hornish Jr 2 Kenny Irwin Jr 2 Joey Logano 2 Juan Pablo Montoya 2 Jerry Nadeau 2 Benny Parsons 2 David Ragan 2 David Reutimann 2 Tim Richmond 2 Regan Smith 2 Kenny Wallace 2 Mike Wallace 2 Marcos Ambrose 1 Trevor Bayne 1 Rich Bickle 1 Buddy Baker 1 Tommy Ellis 1 Jimmy Hensley 1 Dave Mader III 1 Rick Mast 1 Paul Menard 1 Robert Pressley 1 Scott Riggs 1 Johnny Sauter 1 Elton Sawyer 1 Dick Trickle 1 2169. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.19.2013 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For anyone who does decide to tackle the "risk taking stats" I request that moves deemed to be "risks" be called "Irvans" in honor of Ernie. I really miss watching him race. 2170. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.19.2013 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is the 10th anniversary of the 2003 Royal Rumble which featured one of the worst Championship matches of all time and one of the best Championship Matches of all time. 2171. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always enjoy watching Royal Rumble pay-per-views. The first WWE PPV that I ever watched was the 2001 Royal Rumble, which featured Steve Austin winning his 3rd royal rumble match, Kane having a career night by lasting over 50 minutes and eliminating a record 11 wrestlers from the match, guest appearances by The Honky Tonk Man and Drew Carrey, The Big Show making his return after a 9-month hiatus looking fatter than ever before, a great World Championship match between Kurt Angle and Triple H, the Dudley Boyz winning the Tag Team titles from Edge & Christian, and an epic ladder match between Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit. As a young fan, that event completely blew me away and made me a big fan of pro wrestling. I still consider that the greatest Royal Rumble PPV in WWE history (although I think the '99 Royal Rumble match itself was better), and one of the best PPV's in WWE history. As for the 2003 Royal Rumble, while I thought that was a very good PPV as well, with one of the better Royal Rumble matches, that World Heavyweight Championship match between Triple H and Scott Steiner was just atrocious. A lot of people don't know this, but Steiner had a bad foot during that time, and since a lot of his moves were "power moves", it meant that he had to put a lot of weight on his lower body, and the end result was a lot of botched moves. I still think that match was better from a wrestling standpoint than the Dawn Marie/Torrie Wilson match, but the difference is that that match only lasted 3 1/2 minutes, while the Steiner/HHH match lasted over 18 minutes and just felt like forever before it finally ended. To make matters more confusing, they had a rematch the next month, which I think was even worse than their first match. Other than those two stinkers, I thought that was a very good PPV. 2172. murb posted: 01.19.2013 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, It's funny because I used to have the 2002 Royal Rumble on VHS. The match was really good. Some of the highlights included Maven eliminating The Undertaker (followed by Taker beating the hell out of Maven and slamming him through a popcorn machine which Taker proceeded to eat afterward - hilarious!!!), the return of past favorites Goldust, Val Venis, and Mr Perfect, and Stone Cold whipping ass as usual. There were some good matches other than the Rumble match though. Jericho and Rock fought for the title, and Edge and William Regal had a good match for the IC title. 2173. Paul posted: 01.19.2013 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh, don't remind me about Maven eliminating Undertaker from the '02 Royal Rumble. The Mayfield/Earnhardt battle at Pocono '00 has nothing to the Maven/Undertaker incident on the "Scrub gets a fluke win over a legend" scale. To make matters worse, they had a match a few weeks later, and Maven got a pin fall victory over 'Taker with help from The Rock (that would be like Mayfield beating Earnhardt again, but with help from Rusty Wallace). Whatever, 'Taker won in the end, as he won his 4th World Championship four months later and has only increased his legend over the next 10 years. After Maven got his 15 minutes of fame, he did nothing for the next three years before he was released, and now I think he works for the Home Shopping Network or something. Wow! Now that I think about it, those two scenarios are almost identical to each other, with one guy now looked at as a legend, and the other guy taking an early exit from their sport. 2174. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.20.2013 - 7:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That Benoit Vs Angle match at Royal Rumble 2003 had to be one of the best Championship matches ever. Don't you agree Paul 2175. kup posted: 01.20.2013 - 7:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chase idea sux? It depends ... If Chase is just 10-race shoot-out - its bad for whole Cup history (1949-2003). If Chase is whole 36-race season - its good for fans and history. Example: Top-15* drivers of 2012 are eligible to chase for z Cup in 2013. *Top-15 in traditional Non-chase-10-race format! The Last time when best driver by traditional format NOT won than Cup is: Kevin Harvick - was best in 2010 but in 2009 he was 19th - out of Top-15. So Kevin was not eligible for 2009-2010 Chase-36-race format. By the way: in 2001-2012 all drivers (except of Harvick in 2010) who won by traditional system - also won by Chase-36-rece format. 2176. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! In 01, Sterling Marlin would have won with a Chase. In 2002, Kurt Busch would have won with a Chase. In 2003, Jimmie Johnson would have won with a Chase. In 2004, Jeff Gordon would have clinched with two races left without the Chase. In 2007, Jeff Gordon again would have clinched with two races left without the Chase. In 2008, Carl Edwards would have won without the Chase. In 2010, as you said Harvick would have won, clinching with two races left without the Chase. In 2011, Carl Edwards would have clinched with a week left without the Chase. 2177. kup posted: 01.20.2013 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chase idea sux? It depends ... If Chase is just 10-race shoot-out - its bad for whole Cup history (1949-2003). If Chase is whole 36-race season - its good for fans and history. Example: Top-15* drivers of 2012 are eligible to chase for z Cup in 2013. *Top-15 in traditional Non-chase-10-race format! Brad Keselowski - is he Real Champion by Chase-36-race-Top-15 format? In 2011 traditional format he finished 10th - so he was one of 15 Chasers in 2012. http://racing-reference.info/race/2011_Ford_400/W see bottom of this link 2011 Final Non-chase Standings 1 Carl Edwards 1278 - Top Chaser of 2012 2 Kevin Harvick 1200 3 Tony Stewart 1191 - 3rd Chaser of 12 4 Jimmie Johnson 1188 5 Matt Kenseth 1180 6 Jeff Gordon 1150 7 Kyle Busch 1124 8 Ryan Newman 1103 9 Kurt Busch 1087 - 9th Chaser of 12 10 Brad Keselowski 1079 - 10th Chaser of 12 11 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 1071 12 Clint Bowyer 1047 13 Kasey Kahne 1041 - 13th Chaser of 12 14 Denny Hamlin 1028 15 A.J. Allmendinger 1013 - Last Chaser of 12 16 Greg Biffle 997 - Surprise! 17 Paul Menard 947 18 Martin Truex, Jr. 937 19 Marcos Ambrose 936 20 Jeff Burton 935 *Surprize! - as we see: 9th is Kurt Busch - he was Chaser in 2012 - and maybe this fact could help him with better car2ride since start of 2012. 15th is Ally - he was Chaser in 2012. But 16th is Biff - he was Not Chaser in 2012. In 2012 traditional format he finished 1st - so he is Cup Champion of 2011-12 campaign and now Top Chaser of 2013. http://racing-reference.info/race/2011_Ford_400/W see bottom of this link 1 Brad Keselowski 1259 - 2011-12 Cup Champion and Top-Chaser of 2012-13 Cup campaign 2 Greg Biffle 1240 3 Jimmie Johnson 1231 - 3rd Chaser of 12-13 4 Matt Kenseth 1218 5 Clint Bowyer 1213 - 5th Chaser of 12-13 6 Denny Hamlin 1167 7 Kevin Harvick 1162 - 7th Chaser - z only Childress 8 Martin Truex, Jr. 1161 9 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 1144 10 Kyle Busch 1133 - 10th Chaser of 12-13 11 Kasey Kahne 1129 12 Tony Stewart 1112 13 Jeff Gordon 1080 - 13th Chaser of 12-13 14 Ryan Newman 1051 15 Carl Edwards 1030 - Last Chaser of 12-13 16 Paul Menard 1006 - Not 17 Joey Logano 965 - Not 18 Marcos Ambrose 950 - Not 19 Jeff Burton 883 - Not 20 Jamie McMurray 868 - Not 25 ... Kurt Busch - Not Chaser of 12-13. In short: to be Z Real Cup Champion any driver should be Top-15 z season before - and then be Z best next season - 36-race Chase for him/her and any of Top-15 previous season. I like such 36-race Chase eureka. 2178. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.20.2013 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The above grammar and sentence structure is so retarded you aren't even worth acknowledging. I understand your point, but get an education first. 2179. David posted: 01.20.2013 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In short: to be Z Real Cup Champion any driver should be Top-15 z season before - and then be Z best next season - 36-race Chase for him/her and any of Top-15 previous season." *in ridiculous German accent* Und I vill like it ven you geet out zee deectionaree und zee grahmmehr books und read zem covehr to covehr, dummkopf! 2180. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still remember the '99 Rumble. When Stone Cold came back in the ambulance I thought that was the coolest thing ever (little did I know 10 years later I would be driving ambulance myself). Also there was the incredibly violent title match between the Rock and Mankind. Add this to the Taker's Ministry of Darkness angle (which, for the record, I thoroughly enjoyed) and they were really pushing the envelope hard, especially with the stuff the girls were doing (which for a 15 year old like me was definitely noted). Of course it would tragically be curtailed that May. 2181. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh absolutely, Benjamin. I haven't seen it in a few years, but that match may have been the best World title match in Royal Rumble history, and certainly one of the best matches in the last 10 years of the WWE. I'll always remember the ending when Angle put the heel hold on Benoit because the ankle lock wasn't getting the job done at making Benoit tap out, which is just tremendous wrestling psychology (rather than doing the same move over and over, Angle switched it up in hopes of getting a different result). After a long struggle, Benoit had no choice and finally tapped out knowing that Angle had the hold locked in, which made the ending look a lot like a UFC fight, and I'm always in favor of wrestling matches looking like real fights. It's unfortunate that that match came before the Steiner/HHH match because I often forget about it once I see the stink match that followed it. But watching it all by itself, the Angle/Benoit match may be the best World title match of the last 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, heck, maybe one of the greatest title matches of all-time from a pure wrestling standpoint. I haven't watched it in a long time, but it always stands out to me as a technical wrestling fan's dream match. 2182. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Taker's Ministry of Darkness group was badass. I've heard reports that that was his least favorite character in his wrestling career, partially because his nickname (Lord of Darkness) essentially made him Satan. But I always enjoyed that angle. And don't forget that when Austin returned to the arena in an ambulance, he drove past what was essentially an abduction on another wrestler, performed by Taker and his Ministry of Darkness, so there was a little bit of dark humor during that scene. It's often forgotten (as it should, given the circumstances), but Taker actually beat Austin for the World title the night that Owen Hart tragically died falling to the ring. The next night when WWE had every wrestler line-up on the stage for the "ten bell salute" to Owen, Taker was noticeably absent on stage because apparently he was crying so hard that WWE thought it would be bad for his Satan like character if he was seen crying on TV, so they had him stay backstage for the salute to Owen (the only other wrestler that might also have been left off-screen to protect his character for this salute would have been Kane, Taker's "half-brother", but he wore a mask and any tears wouldn't have been visible). It's a shame that nobody went to jail over that horrible tragedy, because he basically was killed for nothing. No one bought a ticket to see him descend from the ceiling, or bought the PPV to see him descend from the ceiling, or was disciplined by justice because he fell while descending from the ceiling. The only thing that happened is the WWE gave his widow a big settlement (although she could have gotten a lot more if she had gone to trial, which Bret Hart wanted her to do), plus the rights to Owen's name and character. One reason why Owen isn't in the WWE Hall of Fame, is never mentioned on TV, and is rarely ever seen in archive footage from the DVDs is because WWE has limited access to his name. And unfortunately, his widow has decided to keep his name to herself, essentially erasing his name from WWE's history. Not only is Owen gone, but so is his memory, and I consider that to be the greatest tragedy in this whole ordeal. 2183. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, did you guys see that security guard get table-topped by Julio Jones a few minutes ago? Poor guy, he never saw it coming. Somebody should be there telling those guys that a player is heading towards them so they have a chance to get out of the way, because they're facing the crowd the entire game and never see the action behind them. 2184. kup posted: 01.20.2013 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2176. NicoRosbergFan posted: ... some really good stuff ;) No matter NRF seems arguing just by himself? And ... Right * 3 times! By UPS! (universal points system) 2000-2012 Cup champions are: 2000: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1794 - Bobby Labonte - 13273 / 7,4 1403 - Dale Earnhardt - 13189 / 9,4 2001: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1275 - Jeff Gordon - 14030 / 11,0 1110 - Tony Stewart - 13981 / 12,6 2002: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1135 - Mark Martin - 13841 / 12,2 = AvFin: best in 2002 Top15 + worst in Cup history = Record? 1048 - Rusty Wallace - 13827 / 13,2 1043 - Tony Stewart - 13137 / 12,6 - "official" 2003: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1316 - Matt Kenseth - 13422 / 10,2 - "off" 1201 - Jimmie Johnson - 13694 / 11,4 2004: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1190 - Jeff Gordon - 13561 / 11,4 - "non-chase" 1177 - Dale Earnhardt, Jr, - 14246 / 12,1 1106 - Jimmie Johnson - 13382 / 12,1 1083 - Tony Stewart - 13976 / 12,9 1081 - Kurt Busch - 13515 / 12,5 - "chase off" 2005: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1458 - Tony Stewart - 14437 / 9,9 - "non-chase" + "chase off" 1195 - Greg Biffle - 14222 / 11,9 2006: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1472 - Jimmie Johnson - 14276 / 9,7 - "non-chase" + "chase off" 1461 - Matt Kenseth - 14313 / 9,8 2007: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1872 - Jeff Gordon - 13668 / 7,3 - "non-chase" 1264 - Jimmie Johnson - 13650 / 10,8 - "chase off" 2008: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1499 - Carl Edwards - 14244 / 9,5 - "non-chase" 1371 - Jimmie Johnson - 14392 / 10,5 - "chase off" 2009: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1360 - Jeff Gordon - 13872 - 10,2 1353 - Tony Stewart - 14075 - 10,4 1246 - Jimmie Johnson - 13829 - 11,1 - "non-chase" + "chase off" 2010: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1659 - Kevin Harvick - 14436 / 8,7 - "non-chase" 1205 - Carl Edwards - 14221 / 11,8 1152 - Jimmie Johnson - 14057 / 12,2 - "chase off" 2011: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1473 - Carl Edwards - 13701 / 9,3 - "non-chase" 1195 - Kevin Harvick - 13743 / 11,5 1186 - Jimmie Johnson - 14111 / 11,9 1180 - Tony Stewart - 14163 / 12,0 - "chase off" 2012: UPS! points - Driver - Miles - AvFin 1346 - Brad Keselowski - 13597 / 10,1 - "non-chase" + "chase off" - last time 2006 1339 - Greg Biffle - 13655 / 10,2 1235 - Clint Bowyer - 13461 / 10,9 1226 - Matt Kenseth - 13607 / 11,1 1171 - Dale Earnhardt, Jr, - 12766 / 10,9 1130 - Kevin Harvick - 13671 / 12,1 1122 - Jimmie Johnson - 12565 / 11,2 TOTAL: UPS! 13 seasons 2000-2012 champions: Jeff Gordon - 4: 01,04,07,09. Carl Edwards - 2: 08,11. Bobby Labonte - 1: 00. Mark Martin - 1: 02. Matt Kenseth - 1: 03. Tony Stewart - 1: 05. Jimmie Johnson - 1: 06. Kevin Harvick - 1: 10. Brad Keselowski - 1: 12. Nice UPS! 2185. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why does "Atlanta" and "playoffs" always mean "misery"? Quick note about me: my Dad was born and raised in Northwest South Carolina, so he had always pulled for Atlanta teams professionally (the Braves especially along with the Falcons and Hawks). As a little kid, I pulled for who he pulled for (which is how I became an Earnhardt fan). When the Hornets showed up in the late 80's and the Panthers in the mid 90', I switched allegiances because they were based in North Carolina where I was born and have lived my entire life. But I have always held a soft spot for the Atlanta teams. So I have consistently been tortured by them. Oh well, at least I still have the Braves '95 title. Still remember that one well. Could be worse, I could have nothing. And Paul, I had heard Taker wasn't at Raw is Owen cause he flew to Calgary to be with the Hart family whom he was close with. But I could be wrong. 2186. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, I was really pulling for the Falcons in this game, but I gotta tip my hat to the 49ers as they made few mistakes and played much better for the final three quarters than the Falcons did. It's still crazy to think the 49ers are going to the Super Bowl, considering how I was only two years old the last time they made the trip to the big game. No matter who wins the AFC title game, I think it's going to be a great match-up between two well-coached teams with a lot of talented players on both sides. 2187. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You could be right about Taker visiting the Hart family, DSFF. I know that Taker was close to Bret Hart, as he was one of the few non-Canadian wrestlers that visited him in the hospital after Bret's stroke in 2002. I've read reports that supported both scenarios, and Jim Ross even wrote in his blog that it was more of a character issue than anything for why Taker didn't appear on stage for Raw is Owen. My guess is that he visited the Hart family either before or after the show, which just goes to show how good of a human being Taker was and still is, and how much he cares for his fellow wrestlers. 2188. cjs3872 posted: 01.20.2013 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I was wrong, because "the royal family", as they were once called (watch the Super Bowl XXIV highlight film), is back in the Super Bowl, where they've never lost. Congrats to the 49ers, who have come all the way back, and now stand one win away from once again moving into a tie with the Pitsburgh Steelers for the most Super Bowl wins. I think having the 49ers back up there is exactly what the NFL needs, because they need a dominant western team, and the last western team to even appear in a Super Bowl was the 2002 Oakland Raiders, and the last western team to win one was the 1998 Denver Broncos. I picked the Falcons to win the game because of a more experienced QB, but it was mistakes that the Falcons made that cost them. Two Matt Ryan turnovers and two personal foul penalties that each led to TDs that cost them the game, and not even the officials could prevent the 49ers victory (that call on that "completion" to Douglas was about as bad as it gets). When Mike Singetary brought back the old colors in 2010, he hoped that would also bring back the old 49er tradition of winning he had the misfortune of going against. Well, even though he didn't even last that season, the tradition he hoped to bring back was upheld by an ex-teammate, Jim Harbaugh, and those red and gold colors that were so much a part of the dominance of the NFC in the Montana-era are back where many people think they belong, and that's in the Super Bowl, where they will play in the same building where the 1989 49ers produced the most one-sided Super Bwl of all, the 55-10 demolition of the Broncos in Super Bowl XXIV. I've said for years that it's about time that a one-sided Super Bowl shows up after all the good ones in recent years, and maybe the 49ers, who won three one-sided Super Bowls are the team that will deliver that. And wasn't it something to see Eddie DeBartolo there for the George Halas Trophy presentation. Talks about bringing back memories of the glory days for 49er fans. The only way they could've done it more was to have Joe Montana there. If the 49ers win the Super Bowl, maybe Montana will be there for the MVP presentation. And talk about deja vu. In 1979, the 49ers hired Bill Walsh, who built the 49ers into the dynasty of the 80s, and got the 49ers to the Super Bowl in his third year as head coach after coaching Stanford for two seasons (he even won his second Super Bowl at Stanford). Well, guess where Jim Harbaugh had been the head coach before joining the 49ers in that capacity? You got it, Stanford, only Harbaugh got the 49ers to the Super Bowl in his second year, though what will happen in the Super Bowl and the future is unknown at this time. 2189. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We just saw a "coming of age" game with Colin Kaepernick coming back from a 17-0 1st quarter deficit and leading the 49ers to a 28-24 victory over the #1 seed Falcons. Will we see another one with Joe Flacco leading the Ravens back to the Super Bowl by beating the high-powered Patriots? I have reason to believe that Flacco has that "clutch gene" to play strong in big games while making minimal mistakes, as evidenced by his performance against the #1 seeded Broncos last week, so it will be interesting to see if he can overcome any deficiencies that his defense may have against a beatable Patriots defense. 2190. Spen posted: 01.20.2013 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I usually don't get involved in football discussions, but it looks like I'll be watching a football game for the first time since 1994. 2191. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Leave it to Tom Brady to flop after running into an official. 2192. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.20.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul the Benoit Vs Angle Title Match Happened after the HHH Vs Steiner Title Match. 2193. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I stand corrected Benjamin, but that just goes to show how bad that Steiner/HHH match was because it overshadowed my memory of the Angle/Benoit match, despite taking place the match before. 2194. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, the Patriots can't be penalized in this game. First their quarterback gets away with a Ty Cobb slide that would have made Ndamukong Suh blush, and then their long snapper runs into the Ravens punt returner after he signaled "fair catch", and neither play resulted in a penalty. Bravo. 2195. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man I hope the Ravens win this one, I hate New England. Cjs, you are in Baltimore, I order you to use all the positive mind karma you can muster to will the Ravens through this. 2196. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Touchdown Ravens! Cjs, you are doing your job so far, don't let me down! Also, that Pats RB got KNOCKED THE F**K OUT!!! 2197. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) INTERCEPTION!!!! 2198. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF Baltimore isn't much better than New England in fact Baltimore is one of the most biggest crime infested cites in this country. 2199. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Twas a valiant effort New England. But you lost. Now go away. Super Bowls before Spygate: 3 super Bowls since Spygate: ZERO 2200. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't forget all of the quarterbacks that the Patriots have lost to since Spygate: Eli Manning (twice), Joe Flacco (twice), and Mark Sanchez (a.k.a. Butt Fumble); not exactly the greatest quarterbacks in the world. A lot of this falls on the shoulders of Tom Brady, because over the last six seasons, he has proven to be the Jimmie Johnson of pro football: When his team is the best, he leads them to victory. But when the chips are down and he has to pull off a win against a more determined team, he can't do it. Excluding 2008 when he was injured, the Patriots have had to face a more determined team in the playoffs every season since '07, the first post-Spygate season, and each time they came up short. It's almost a shame that one team has to lose in the Super Bowl two weeks from now. On one side you have a team that has never lost a Super Bowl, and on the other side you have one of the all-time greats retiring after the game, win or loss. Also, Joe Flacco has a chance to prove himself as an elite quarterback by claiming to be elite in the offseason, then going on and leading his team to a Super Bowl victory that same season (a la Eli Manning last season). And as a Vikings fan, I would love to see Randy Moss, one of the greatest wide receivers of all-time, win a Super Bowl before he retires. I'm pretty torn as to who I want to win between those two teams, so instead I'm just going to appreciate what I see from both the 49ers and Ravens as a mostly neutral fan. Kudos to Shannon Sharpe for calling out Bill Belichick on not giving a post-game interview following the Patriots' loss. It's about time someone in the media called the Patriots out on their history of being sore losers (see Super Bowl XLII when they walked off the field with two seconds left), and I applaud Shannon for being that someone. 2201. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.20.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From yahoo.comsports: "For at least one Raven, it was about vengeance. After the game linebacker Terrell Suggs pointed to the motivation of defeating the hated Patriots, who had won last year's AFC title game over Baltimore. "Tell them to have fun at the Pro Bowl," Suggs said. "Shut them out in the second half. Arrogant [expletive]. These are the most arrogant pricks in the world starting with [coach Bill] Belichick on down." This will be an interesting matchup, but at least we can take solace in knowing that for the first time since Feb. 2003, there will not be a Brady, Manning, or Roethlisberger in the Super Bowl. 2202. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.20.2013 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't care about the cities themselves, I just love that Belichick and the team he created in his image (see Suggs' comments) have lost at home again. That would be 3 home playoff losses at home for Brady as opposed to 2 for Montana (and one of those saw him get knocked out of the game while leading). Of course neither can touch Peyton's 5 home playoff losses. Oddly enough, the Pats have seemingly had much better teams ever since their last Super Bowl win. But they have been caught cheating and haven't won it all since although Brady has stepped evolved into a regular season QB on Peyton's level. Board controversy alert! You know who Peyton and post '05 Brady are most like as compared to drivers? Jeff Gordon. Undeniably brilliant, but an undeniable pattern of fading in the end. 2203. Paul posted: 01.20.2013 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to toot my favorite team's horn, but I'd like to point out that both starting quarterbacks in that Super Bowl between the Bucs and Raiders (the last Super Bowl without Brady, Manning, or Roethlisberger before this one), Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon, each spent their first years in the NFL with the Vikings. Here's a fun fact: I was born in 1992, which just so happens to be the only year that both Gannon and Johnson were with the Vikings at the same time, as Gannon was traded to the Redskins the next season. Also, Gannon played college football at the University of Delaware, the same college team that Joe Flacco played for. I think the Ravens/Patriots rivalry is the most fearsome non-division rivalry in today's football, and I think that it ranks #2 in that category of all-time, right behind the Raiders/Steelers rivalry. As for T-Sizzle's comments after the game, I'm just glad that at least one player has the guts to say what a lot of us football fans not from the northeast have been saying for years about the Patriots. It amazes me how a franchise with one of the classiest owners in all of sports (Robert Kraft) has such a bad record in terms of being arrogant and unclassy on the football field and in the media, and I think that explains why they are so hated by the majority of football fans not from the northeast. Hatred for the Patriots isn't the same as it is with the Dallas Cowboys. With the Cowboys, a lot of the hatred for them has to do with the way they get portrayed by the media and being dubbed "America's Team". I think that if it wasn't for the media's love for the Cowboys (not to mention the feelings a lot of fans have for Jerry Jones), the Cowboys would be looked at in the same light as the Washington Redskins, in that they are simply a team with a great history as a franchise and while probably hated within their own division, aren't necessarily disliked all across the country like they are now. On the other hand, the Patriots are treated almost like Gods in the sports media. They can't do anything wrong, Tom Brady is this generation's Joe Montana, and Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches ever, among other things are frequent talking points. And to make this situation even worse, the team believes in its own hype, so they automatically lose the sympathy card from fans who might say "Well, it's not their fault the media loves them." I never got that feeling that the Cowboys bought into the hype that they received from the media. Tom Landry hated that his team was dubbed "America's Team" because it put an unnecessary target on their back, and Jimmy Johnson was so relentless on his players during their '93 Super Bowl-winning season because he didn't want them to be complacent with just winning one Super Bowl from the previous season). And they acted this way because they never bought into the hype that they were the best team in the league. The Patriots on the other hand have this arrogance about them as if they run the NFL because they won three Super Bowls in a four year span, yet they have won zero since Spygate, have twice lost in the Super Bowl to Eli Manning's Giants, and have playoff losses to teams with Jake Plummer, Peyton Manning, Joe Flacco, and Mark Sanchez at quarterback. If they haven't been humbled by losses to those teams, with the latter two and Eli being among their post-Spygate playoff losses, then any and all hope of humbling that arrogant team has been lost. I can't recall any team that hasn't won a Super Bowl in eight years receive so much consistent hype year-in and year-out from the media as being one of the greatest teams of all-time. But then again, they are the first NFL "dynasty" located in a big northeastern market, so this love affair for the Patriots shouldn't be a surprise. 2204. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian France and Co. have finally outdone themselves. They are letting the fans vote on the format for the Sprint Unlimited. There are four areas: - Laps in each segment - Pit stop requirements at the end of the first segment - How many cars should be eliminated at the end of segment two And last, but most important: - Which fire suit Miss Sprint Cup will wear in Victory Lane I honestly don't know whether to laugh, vomit (figuratively), or stare in horror. You can check out NASCAR.com's site (I know, I know) and see for yourself. 2205. cjs3872 posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF and Paul, you're forgetting one other thing about the Patriots' Super Bowl drought. You mentioned that they haven't won a Super Bowl since Spygate. I'll go further than that. They haven't won a Super Bowl since they let Adam Vinatieri go following the 2005 season. And where did he go? Indianapolis, where he just happened to be a key cog in the Colts Super Bowl championship in 2006. And while the difference on the scoreboard in all three Patriots' Super Bowl wins were a kick by Vinatieri, their first Super Bowl loss in the Brady-Belichick era was also decided by a field goal, while their loss in last year's Super Bowl would also have been decided by a field goal, if not for an early safety the Giants got as a result of an intentional grounding call in the end zone. In other words, the loss of Adam Vinatieri has been bigger than most people think, though it had nothing to do with tonight's loss. But the Patriots have ben a flawed team for several seasons. Their biggest flaws have been defense and the running game, and now they've been without a deep passing game for two or three years, and it's showed, bith in last year's Super Bowl and tonight's loss in the AFC Championship Game. Last week, the Ravens had no fear of the Broncos going deep because of the fact that Peyton Manning has a weak arm. Tonight, they didn't really have to fear a downfield attack because the Patriots have no deep threat. I believe the mere fact that they keep getting as far in the playoffs as they do is a tribute to Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, because they keep producing mind-boggling offensive numbers, despite glaring holes in their offense, and their defense has been lacking ever since Tedy Bruschi had that hole in his heart that was found after the 2005 Pro Bowl, and he was never really the same after that, and has never truly been adequately replaced, and as a result, their defense has really not been that good. 2206. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are correct Paul in your analysis of arrogance and subsequent fan dislike of New England that Dallas has not had. 2207. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I would say that Peyton is more like Jeff Gordon than Brady is, because neither has ever really acted like they run their sport the way Brady has, nor have they come off as buying into their own hype. Plus, both of them would probably have more championships if each season was played continuously, rather than splitting it between a regular season and playoffs, because their playoff records leave a lot to be desired. So surprise, surprise, I actually agree with you on that point. On the other hand, I would say Brady is more like Jimmie Johnson. Both of them are capable of winning a championship when they have the best team and beat their opponents both physically and mentally (mostly mentally, such as Jimmie's '08 and '10 titles, and Brady's '01 and '04 titles). But once they meet a team that is simply better, either physically or mentally (Johnson in '04, '05 and '12, Brady in '05-'07 and '09-'12), then they crumble under pressure and lose to a team that on paper they should have beaten handedly. Both of them will go down in history as being one of the all-time greats at their profession based on their number of championships, but they've also lost some big games that just make you scratch your head and say "If they are so great, how could they lose to THAT team?" Plus, both of them are on teams that have tremendous arrogance about themselves, believe in their own hype, and have lost touch with their roots. Not relatable, not likable, and I love it when they lose in such devastating fashion. Also, just for the sake of making these fun comparisons, I'm going to compare Brad Keselowski to Eli Manning. Both of them are second-generation competitors, have an older brother with a much larger presence (for Eli it's in "greatness", for Brad it's in size), were dismal when they first played made it to the big level, won a championship in just their 3rd full season, and have won titles over teams that should have won based on talent and experience (Eli beating the Patriots twice, Brad beating Carl/Roush in Nationwide and Jimmie/Hendrick in Cup). And at the same time, both of them are very likable and relatable guys who haven't forgotten their roots and how they became such stars in their industries. I like both of those guys, and I'm glad that they have each achieved success at their respective profession's highest level. 2208. murb posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I honestly don't know whether to laugh, vomit (figuratively), or stare in horror." All of them!!!! This is why we call him Brain France. It's not a typo. As for football, while the Ravens did knock out my Broncos, I still have a ton of respect for them as a franchise and their fan base, so I think it would be cool to see them win the Super Bowl. Same thing goes for the 49ers. Like Paul said earlier, I'm basically neutral on this one. And I'm also really glad to see the Pats shut out. They really are the 48 team of the NFL. Brady is Jimmie, and Belichick is Knaus. 2209. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just for the heck of it, I voted anyway. 2210. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't how you guys feel about special teams players being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame (personally I've always felt that if they were among the best at kicking, returning, or "Steve Taskering", they should be inducted just like any other great player), but I feel like Adam Vinatieri should be inducted into the Hall of Fame once he retires simply for his clutch performances in some of the sport's biggest games, including the "Tuck Rule Game", and Super Bowls XXXVI and XXXVIII, not to mention the fact that the Patriots won Super Bowl XXXIX by three points, the equivalent of one field goal. John Elway was quoted recently (ironically, it was just prior to Peyton's un-clutch performance against the Ravens) as saying that a player makes his money in the regular season, and his legacy in the playoffs (which explains Peyton's high salary). And in terms of his legacy being created in the playoffs, Adam Vinatieri has to go down as the kicker with the greatest legacy in pro football history with four Super Bowl rings, three of which being won because of his play in those games. It is rather ironic that for the first part of the 2000s, the Patriots' quarterback/kicker combination was arguably the most clutch in the league with Tom Brady and Adam Vinatieri, while the Colts' QB/K combination was Peyton Manning and Mike Vanderjagt, a tandem that was flawless in the regular season and often times didn't show up in the playoffs. And one does have to question Tom Brady's legacy because, as cjs pointed out, he hasn't led his team to a Super Bowl victory since Vinatieri left after 2005. And in the two years that he did lead his team to Super Bowl appearances, they beat a Chargers team with an injured Philip Rivers foolishly playing at quarterback, and Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates both out with injuries, and then beating the Ravens after Lee Evans' touchdown catch was controversially ruled incomplete and Billy Cundiff did his best Mike Vanderjagt impression by shanking a potential game-tying field goal in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Vinatieri went to the Colts and immediately helped them win the Super Bowl his first season there, allowing Peyton Manning to not have the same blotch on his career record that Dan Marino has. In fact, Vinatieri scored all 15 of his team's points in their divisional playoff game that year against (ironically) the Ravens. And in the AFC title game the following week, he made all three of his field goals, which gave the Colts a 4-point lead at the end of the game, forcing Brady to have to go for the touchdown at the end, leading to his inevitable interception to Marlin Jackson. One can only wonder if the Patriots would have won all three of their Super Bowls if they had to score touchdowns rather than field goals to win the game. I do know that when they played the Panthers, John Fox decided to go for the two-point conversion three times, and all three times they failed to convert. So if the Panthers had just kicked the extra point after those three scores, Vinatieri's game-winning field goal would have only tied the game and send it to overtime, rather than win the game like it did. That being said, it is rather interesting that the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl since Vinatieri left, and I think that, as well as Tedy Bruschi's career-altering stroke and internal injuries, are big reasons for why the Patriots haven't won the big game in eight seasons, despite having arguably better teams that their Super Bowl-winning teams. 2211. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They really are the 48 team of the NFL. Brady is Jimmie, and Belichick is Knaus." And Robert Kraft is Rick Hendrick. Both of them are classy, well-respected individuals who just happen to own arguably the most arrogant team with a history of cheating in their respective sports. 2212. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.21.2013 - 7:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now I know this has been Mentioned before but has anyone here notices that Belichick looks like Emperor Palpatine. 2213. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.21.2013 - 9:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^O.....K..... That Sprint Unlimited vote is for retards. Their basically trying to turn it into the Winston from the late 90s/early 2000s without the fourth segment. I want one segment, 20 laps, yellow flag laps don't count. How awesome would that be? 500 laps at Martinsville with yellow flag laps not counting toward the race total. 2214. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 9:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't throw the word "retards" around lightly, NRF. No matter how the vote turns out, I can't wait for the race. 2215. cjs3872 posted: 01.21.2013 - 10:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way NicoRosbergFan, I did vote (or at least attempt to because I did not vote for what uniform the Sprint girs should wear, because I don't care), and I voted for the distance that included the 10-lap final segment, and voted for no mandatory pit stop and no elimination. Besides, there may not be enough cars left to eliminate any of them. Remember that there were only 13 cars running at the end of the event last year, and eight of those were involved in incidents. 2216. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Remember that there were only 13 cars running at the end of the event last year, and eight of those were involved in incidents." Yes, but almost half of those wrecked cars came from the Lap 75 incident. 2217. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.21.2013 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Voted twice for the 10 lap final segment, no elimination, no mandatory pitstop, and firesuit design #3. Sprint is absolutely trying to come up with a hodgepodge of The Winston voting/format from 98'-03'. 2218. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They should have had an option to invert the field at the end of segment two. Now THAT would have been interesting to watch. 2219. murb posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They should have had an option to invert the field at the end of segment two. Now THAT would have been interesting to watch." 100%. My thoughts exactly. 2220. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Other things we should be allowed to vote on: -June's facial hair -A mute button for DW's mic -Everytime they show a replay of Clint sprinting through the garage to Gordon's hauler at Phoenix (which you know will be a shit ton of times) whether or not they have to play the Ultimate Warrior's theme music with it -Which random part will fail on Denny Hamlin's car -The ability to just stop a race that is boring as shit like the Gong Show -Reason for S&P cars being listed out of the race officially -When to cut to the Hollywood Hotel or BSPN Pit Studio with one option being "never" -Whether or not AJ McCarron's girlfriend should be the grand marshall at Talladega (YES!!!!) wiith Brent Musburger doing guest commentary -A lenghty discussion on whether or not Danica Patrick is just Tom Cruise in a wig (think about it, they are both the same short height, both look alike facially, neither has any boobs or female curves) -Anytime an announcer says "great save" the ability to show Earnhardt's '87 "Pass In The Grass" with a graphic saying THIS was a great save. 2221. cjs3872 posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, if I remember right, there were already eight cars out of the race, and two others out of contention due to earlier crashes before that last crash, so it wasn't just that final crash. And unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the field inverted between the two segments for seven years (1991-'97)? The reason they took that out was because Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. found a way to beat that in 1997 by just riding in the back in the first segment so they could start up front in the second, and it worked as they finished first and third, respectively. And we know that the fans would have the field inverted every time, which is why they put a limit on how many cars were inverted in the All-Star Race in the late 90s. And if it's a 3-segment race, what segments would you have the field inverted between? Would it be segments one and two, which would be fair, or segments two and three, which would cause sandbagging on the level seen in the 1997 Busch Clash. 2222. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^And to add to the Tom Cruise-Danica Patrick comparison, neither has a pair below the waist either One more thing we should be allowed to vote on: Who should be the announcers, with the choices being Buddy, Ned, DJ, Kyle Petty, Dick Berggren, and Glenn Jarrett. How about we just throw the three Jarrett's in the booth? 2223. Anonymous posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And Robert Kraft is Rick Hendrick. Both of them are classy, well-respected individuals who just happen to own arguably the most arrogant team with a history of cheating in their respective sports. " Robert Kraft is not a criminal like Hendrick. Hendrick is all class when everyone can see and thats where it ends. 2224. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, what they could have done would be to hold a fan vote to determine where the inversion would take place, like they used to do with the All-Star Race. So there could be an option that the drivers running in the top five, top ten, and top fifteen (or any other number) would be inverted. This way the leaders would lose their running position after the inversion, while at the same time preventing as much sandbagging because the drivers wouldn't know where the inversion would take place. That being said, it's no big loss that they aren't holding a fan vote for inverting the field. After watching that joke of an "All-Star Race" that was held last spring (no joke, that was the worst stock car race I have ever seen in my 11 years of watching stock car racing) and seeing drivers sandbag after winning a segment because they knew they would be inverted to the front for the final segment, I'd rather not have a rule that would suggest that drivers could benefit from sandbagging. This sport is already pretty low from a competition standpoint, so there's no reason to give teams an incentive to lay back and drive cautiously. DSFF, another thing that could have been on the fan vote would be the option to vote on the name of Denny Hamlin's baby. After all, it might be the only time Denny ever finishes the job on such an accomplishment, and we as fans deserve to have some input on this once-in-a-lifetime moment. 2225. Baker posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its not racing season yet, but I wanted to stop in and say this years post season proves once again that Tom Brady is no where near on the level Joe Montana set in the 80s. Peyton Manning is obviously never going to touch Montana either. Anyone who truely believes either of those two QBs are better than Joe Montana should have there fan cards removed for life. 2226. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fair point, Anonymous (#2223). "One more thing we should be allowed to vote on: Who should be the announcers" I would vote for Bob Jenkins, Ned Jarrett, and a machine that is programmed to play Benny Parsons' soundbites over the years at correct times during a race in the booth, and Mike Joy, Dick Berggren, and Dr. Jerry Punch as the pit reporters. Also, Alex Bowman will run the full Nationwide schedule this season, driving the #99 RAB Racing Toyota. I don't know what this means for Kenny Wallace, but unless he humbles himself once again and decides to drive for uncompetitive teams like he did from '08-'10, I highly doubt he'll have a full-time ride in 2013. 2227. murb posted: 01.21.2013 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They could just make a rule that gives teams a disqualification or something for sandbagging. But then again, it is a gray area. You wouldn't be able to tell who is sandbagging and who is actually running bad. Plus, I can totally see some teams (*cough* the 48 *cough*) lying about having a mechanical problem, and then having it magically go away just as they get inverted to the front. So yeah, now that I think about it, there are some kinks in this "inverting the field" idea. And I agree with you on last year's All Star Race, Paul. It was awful. 2228. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm watching NFL Network's list of the Top 100 Players in NFL History, and they ranked Peyton Manning at #8, ahead of Don Hutson and Dick Butkus in the top 10. Are you kidding me?! Butkus was the most fearsome player who ever played the game and is the poster boy for how championships can't be the defining point of a player's career (in 1969 the Bears went 1-13 and Butkus was named NFL Defensive Player of the Year, a feat that will never happen again). And Hutson in his 11 NFL seasons led the league in receptions eight times, in receiving yards seven times, and in scoring four times. Butkus was the best player in the league in the 1960s, and Hutson was the best player in the league in the 1930s and 1940s. Peyton Manning has never even been the best player at his own position (Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, and/or Aaron Rodgers were always better), let alone the entire league in his entire career. Yet he's ranked as the eighth best player in NFL history? Now he is ranked behind Joe Montana as the highest quarterback on that list, but I just don't understand how someone who has come up short so many times in the playoffs can be ranked so high on an all-time list. Top 100? Sure. Top 10? You've gotta be kidding me. 2229. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing that really inflates Brady and Manning's numbers is that they have always played in terrible divisions. The ARC East, South, and West are all pathetic. Even a giraffe would look good quarterbacking this year's Patriots and Broncos. 2230. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All I know is that Peyton Manning has less playoff wins as a Bronco, as well as less playoff wins against the Ben Roetlisberger-led Steelers (who play in the AFC North, the only AFC division that Nico didn't list as being pathetic) than Tim Tebow. And since a lot of "expert NFL pundits" like to claim that Tebow sucks and is one of the worst quarterbacks ever, what does that make Peyton? 2231. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the field inverted between the two segments for seven years (1991-'97)? The reason they took that out was because Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. found a way to beat that in 1997 by just riding in the back in the first segment so they could start up front in the second, and it worked as they finished first and third, respectively." I thought they took it out cause in '91 and '93 Earnhardt won the first 10 laps, went to the back, and somehow STILL managed to stink up the show in the end by going 3 wide all over the place and being back in front within the first 3 laps and cruising to victory. That is one area where RCR was far and away the class of the field, restrictor plate races from '90, '91, and '93. Pairing those cars with Dale and his ability to use the air was just friggin criminal. And the results show this. In the 12 plate races of those three years, he won half of them. That is remarkable in and of itself, but then you consider he had 3 heartbreaking late race losses (in, surprise surprise, the 3 Daytona 500s), lost the '91 Winston 500 to Harry Gant's fuel mileage and Darrell's illegal spoiler, and botched the infamous one lap shootout at the end of the '93 Winston 500 by getting way too far ahead on the restart (don't worry, he made up for it by sending his good friend and fiercest rival on a series of sickening 200 MPH flips coming across the line) and that leaves only the '91 Firecracker 400 as a race where he just didn't have the car. Throw in that he was 2 for 2 in the Busch Clash races he was in and won all 3 qualifying races, the rest of the field didn't have a chance.Speaking of Dale over this time.... " After watching that joke of an "All-Star Race" that was held last spring (no joke, that was the worst stock car race I have ever seen in my 11 years of watching stock car racing)" That was a really bad race. But the worst race I have ever seen in my time of watching racing was the 1990 Daytona 500. That race was JUNK! Not only was the show officially "stunk up" for the first 499 miles with one car light years ahead of everyone else and no good racing throughout the rest of the field, the fastest car and deserving winner cut a damn tire in the last set of corners by running over the remnants of a blown engine of a scrub driver, leading to a fluke winner. We also must remember the '08 Brickyard 400 and the '09 Fall Dega race. 2232. murb posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's some of the worst races I've ever witnessed in my 15 or so years of watching Nascar. - 2004 MBNA 400 at Dover (One of the worst officiated races of all time. There was a caution that lasted 40 laps, followed by a huge ass pileup, followed by Casey Mears leaking oil all over the track, followed by Nascar not throwing a caution for it, followed by Kasey Kahne crashing in the oil while leading and getting screwed out of what would have been his first Cup win. Just terrible.) - 2008 Brickyard 400 (Obviously.) - 2009 Amp Energy 500 at Talladega (The "parade race" as many call it. Nascar made it illegal for cars to touch each other in the corners, so it was single file for the whole day until all hell broke loose towards the end.) - 2010 Food City 500 at Bristol (Crap race on the 2007-2012 version of Bristol. Jimmie won it. The only positive thing about this race is that it was the last race with the wing.) - 2010 Sharpie 500 at Bristol (Again, another pretty uneventful 2007-2012 Bristol race, which was made even worse by the fact that Kyle Busch won his third race on the weekend, causing BSPN and Marty Reid to go full on "YOU ARE WITNESSING HISTORY" mode on us.) There are more, but those are just some of the main ones of the past 10 years or so. Basically, these are the worst of the Brain France era thus far. 2233. murb posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh yeah, and another race to add to my list in post 2232 would be any of those Fontana races where there had to be multiple cautions because of trash blowing all over the track. There were at least three or four of those. 2234. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "^And to add to the Tom Cruise-Danica Patrick comparison, neither has a pair below the waist either" *rimshot followed by laughter* "DSFF, another thing that could have been on the fan vote would be the option to vote on the name of Denny Hamlin's baby. After all, it might be the only time Denny ever finishes the job on such an accomplishment, and we as fans deserve to have some input on this once-in-a-lifetime moment." Damn, you guys are on fire! But you are right, it is surprising one of his swimmers made it all the way without breaking a gear, having some electrical failure, or running out of gas within sight of the egg. "Robert Kraft is not a criminal like Hendrick. Hendrick is all class when everyone can see and thats where it ends." Thank you. Between his felony conviction, the fact he has never put the clamps on the serial cheating of his racing organization, and his other shady dealings (John Middlebrook, a close business partner of his, has the final say of the 48's penalties?) I'd take Kraft over Hendrick any day. "I'm watching NFL Network's list of the Top 100 Players in NFL History, and they ranked Peyton Manning at #8, ahead of Don Hutson and Dick Butkus in the top 10." "Now he is ranked behind Joe Montana as the highest quarterback on that list" Well, at least they put Montana ahead of him so I will avoid an Ultimate Warrior meltdown here, but I'm not even sure I'd have him as the eighth best QB of all time. Montana, Starr, Elway, Unitas, Graham, Baugh, Ty Cobb Brady, and Marino to name eight right there (in no particular order). And championships do matter if you are on a championship caliber team. Butkus (among others) never was so he can't be penalized, Peyton has been CONSTANTLY. And you HAVE to consider his considerable drop in performance when it truly matters, his 9-11 playoff record, 8 of 12 playoff appearances saw him lose his first game, 5 home losses, and no real "great" performances outside of a few bum teams. And this is where ranking Ty Cobb Tom Brady becomes tough. He won his 3 Super Bowls from '01-'04 and had two playoff appearances in '05 and '06 where he took the team further than it was probably capable of with some incredibly clutch moments with a team that had no real stars. Although these years do have the "Hendrick Motorsports Memorial Cloud Of Suspicion" hanging over them. But since '07 when they started getting actual stars alongside The Georgia Peach Brady (Moss and Welker to name a few) his playoff performances have dropped markedly. As mentioned before, he has lost to Flacco twice, Eli twice (in the Super Bowl!), and a guy who would buttfumble two years later. He also has 3 home playoff losses. I would still rank him ahead of Peyton cause he did have those early Joe Cool moments, but overall he has a VERY difficult career to evaluate historically. 2235. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the field inverted between the two segments for seven years (1991-'97)? The reason they took that out was because Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt, Sr. found a way to beat that in 1997 by just riding in the back in the first segment so they could start up front in the second, and it worked as they finished first and third, respectively. And we know that the fans would have the field inverted every time, which is why they put a limit on how many cars were inverted in the All-Star Race in the late 90s. And if it's a 3-segment race, what segments would you have the field inverted between? Would it be segments one and two, which would be fair, or segments two and three, which would cause sandbagging on the level seen in the 1997 Busch Clash." Well, it's not like they don't sandbag at plate races anyway (to avoid the "Big One"). "David, if I remember right, there were already eight cars out of the race, and two others out of contention due to earlier crashes before that last crash, so it wasn't just that final crash." I didn't clarify myself. I meant that almost half the crash DNFs came from that last wreck. 2236. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and a machine that is programmed to play Benny Parsons' soundbites over the years at correct times during a race in the booth" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQrIWEElApc THIS IS THE DOGGONDEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE! Miss BP a lot as well as that broadcast trio. 2237. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 01.21.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You guys put way too much importance on the qb and his win/loss record. What happens if qb throws for 300+ yards and no interceptions but team lose say 35 32. The offense as you guys call it has done its job but they lose. Or what if the qb throws less than half his passes and an interception but team win due to defense or special teams. Others must "make plays" also. Welker catches the ball on third down last year and Patriots probably win. 07 Patriots defense manage to bat away the ball or sack Manning on that super play and they win- perfect season, best team ever etc. Obviously qb most important player, especially nowadays with playcalling and hurry-up offense and adjustments etc but it is a TEAM SPORT. Montana was obviously great, especially in the big games as great players should, but he was helped by a dominant team. Now can someone please tell me the seating capacities of the 5 biggest nascar tracks. I know Indy is 250,000 plus Bristol is 160,000 What is Talladega some say 175, others 143 Similar story with Texas and Charlotte By the way I know some have downsized. Thanks. 2238. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And championships do matter if you are on a championship caliber team." Fair point. And just for the sake of comparison, let's take a look at some of the weapons that Brady and Peyton had from 2001-2006 when they were both starters and had each won a Super Bowl: Peyton's Weapons: RB: Edgerrin James, Dominic Rhodes, James Mungro, Joseph Addai WR: Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley TE: Marcus Pollard, Dallas Clark Brady's Weapons: RB: Kevin Faulk, Antowain Smith, Patrick Pass, Corey Dillon WR: Terry Glenn, Troy Brown, Bethel Johnson, Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten, J.J. Stokes, Doug Gabriel, Reche Caldwell, Chad Jackson TE: Jermaine Wiggins, Brian Kinchen, Christian Fauria, Daniel Graham, Benjamin Watson, Jed Weaver, Walter Rasby, David Thomas Not only did Peyton have fewer weapons in quantity because they were staple points of the Colts' offense, but they were far better than almost all of Brady's weapons during that six-year span. Peyton had Marvin and Wayne, both of whom may go to the Hall of Fame one day, one of the best slot receivers in football in Stokley, a great running game with James/Rhodes and Addai (with Mungro being maybe the best #3 running back in the league), and two great tight ends that could either block and make key catches when needed (Pollard) or catch every ball that went his way (Clark). Brady on the other hand had Corey Dillon in his final years of the league (although still a great running back), a career 3rd down RB in Kevin Faulk, a good WR in Terry Glenn (who was hurt/intentionally sitting out for most of the '01 season), Troy Brown who could play any position well, but nothing great, Deion Branch who spent his entire non-Patriots career virtually invisible, some pretty good tight ends in Fauria, Graham, and Watson, and just a bunch of scrubs, journeymen, and career backups that just sort of meshed in with the Patriots' system. And to Brady's credit, he won games with all of these players, and aside from maybe Corey Dillon, none of those players will ever be Hall of Fame candidates. Now I do think that the Patriots have underachieved since they went 18-1 in 2007, but what Brady was able to do with those '01-'06 teams that didn't have nearly as much talent offensively as the Colts is pretty amazing. If you are just looking at what he did those first six seasons, they are pretty comparable to what Dale Earnhardt did with RCR in the mid-'90s by getting the most out of the least, which makes his last six seasons and his performances in the playoffs head scratching. "and had two playoff appearances in '05 and '06 where he took the team further than it was probably capable of with some incredibly clutch moments with a team that had no real stars." Not only that, but he did so with two new coordinators in '05 after both Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel left for Notre Dame and the Browns, so the team basically hit the reset button after their '04 Super Bowl win. 2239. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree, it is a team sport. But as the old saying goes: Big-time players make big-time plays in big-time games. And whether it was his inability to lead his team to any points in the '02 wildcard playoff game against the Jets, getting beat by the cold in the '04 divisional playoff game against the Patriots, losing to a weaker Chargers team with several key injuries in back-to-back playoff seasons, throwing a costly interception in the Super Bowl against the Saints on what could have been a game-tying drive, getting beat by the Jets again with Mark Sanchez as the opposing quarterback, and losing to the Ravens last week after combining both his '04 and '09 playoff losses by getting beat by the cold AND throwing a late-game interception, I think the writing is on the wall that Peyton Manning can't get it done in the big games. I'm not saying that those losses were all his fault, but when you are the star player on a great team, have great weapons at your disposal, and are almost universally praised for your quarterbacking ability, there's no excuse for why he can't perform when it counts the most. Also, Peyton is a 4-time NFL MVP, meaning that four times in his career he was named the most valuable player to his team in the entire league (of course, Kurt Warner deserved it more in '08, but that's a different story). Four is also the number of times in 12 playoff seasons that Peyton couldn't lead his team out of their first playoff game. You're telling me that a guy who has the awards to prove that he was the most valuable player to his team four times can't even win his first playoff game 66.67% of the time? Give me a break. 2240. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At a point (and we have long since passed that point wwith Peyton) it becomes a trend. I don't mean to keep picking on him, but I don't understand why he keeps getting a pass for this. You can't ever hear about the Jim Kelly era Bills without hearing about the 4 straight Super Bowl losses (at least they made it to the Super Bowl 4 straight times). You can't ever hear "Greg Norman" without hearing the word "collapse" within 20 seconds. The Atlanta Braves 15 straight division win streak immediately gets pissed on cause they only won the World Series once in that span. Marty Schottenheimer? Forget about it. But Peyton keeps being put on a pedastal despite his productivity dropping drastically when it really matters. #8? I know there are games where somebody could have stepped up and failed to. But why should it even get to that point. Why should they had to have to rely on Vanderjagt at home against the #6 Steelers? Why should a desperation hail mary by Joe Flacco mean a hill of beans at home against that aging Ravens defense at the end of the game? Again, I look to Montana. 3 of his Super Bowls were already on ice by the start of the 4th quarter. And when they did need him ('81 NFC title game, '88 Super Bowl, '93 Wild Card and Divisional rounds) in the end he did it. 2241. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh my, no... Well, you guys weren't completely off with your comments about traditions being "flushed down the toilet" earlier. NASCAR is now letting the fans who attend the race decide how the starting lineup is set. The three choices are: - 2012 owner points - Practice speeds - Car number Come on, NASCAR. I mean, the first two aren't so bad, but car number?!?! SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?! James Dennis Alan Hamlin, Jr. is now the proud father of Taylor James Hamlin. 2242. Paul posted: 01.21.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Fans will never vote for car number because Junior's is #88, meaning that he would have to start at the back of the field, unless of course they give fans the option of inverting the car numbers as well. I liked what NASCAR did last year by lining up the cars based on practice speeds because it discouraged sandbagging in practice in hopes of drivers having an early qualifying attempt. This whole fan vote process is really getting out of hand. My guess is that since the sport is in need of a serious ratings and interest boost from fans, that this is their way of putting a band-aid over the problem like they always do (remember when Bruton Smith wanted mandatory cautions in order to excite the fans at one of his many tracks that he's destroyed?). It wouldn't surprise me if one day they have throw a caution with 10 laps to go in order to have a 10-lap shootout, and allow the fans during the course of the race to vote on the rearranged order for those final 10 laps. I don't know about you guys, but if that were to happen, I'm voting for Michael McDowell (provided that his team didn't take their money and go home already) because if his performance at Talladega is any indication (changing lanes when the leaders were lapping him), I want him to start up front for this (hypothetically speaking) horrible idea just so he can start a big wreck and blow this into NASCAR's face. That would make my day. Also, I agree with DSFF on Peyton Manning. I don't rip the guy because his playoff record isn't that good. Heck, there are a lot of good quarterbacks that are even playing right now that are worse in the playoffs (Schaub, Dalton, perhaps even Rodgers if he keeps this trend up). But when the guy is being treated as being far better than he actually is (such as being ranked #8 on the Top 100 NFL Players of All-Time list), knowing his frequent shortcomings in the playoffs, then I have a problem with it. I don't dislike Peyton Manning, it's the false image that the media has created for him that I have a problem with. Speaking of the media kissing up to people, yesterday I mentioned how Shannon Sharpe called Bill Belichick out for being a sore loser and declining to talk to Steve Tasker of CBS after the loss to the Ravens yesterday (safety Devin McCourty spoke to Tasker instead), which we saw Mike Smith do yesterday after the Falcons lost, as well as many other coaches who have lost conference title games. Well, if the looks on his fellow analysts' faces could talk, that was a pretty taboo thing to say on a CBS show. Especially since it turns out that Leslie Moonves, the President and CEO of CBS Corporation, is good friends with Robert Kraft (sounds awfully familiar to Rick Hendrick's relationship with John Middlebrook) and was even seen on TV sitting right next to Kraft in Kraft's press box. Bias much? Some people refer to CBS as "The Patriots Network", and I think that screenshot, along with the reactions that the other analysts had to Sharpe making those comments towards Belichick, and the fact that nobody in the media EVER calls him out for being a cheater and an overall douchebag is just further proof how much the Patriots have the media and the NFL in their back pockets, just like how Hendrick Motorsports has the media and NASCAR in their back pockets. Aside from Rick Hendrick's criminal record and his greater number of championships as an owner, I'd say he and Robert Kraft are one and the same: Two owners that run teams that almost never get busted for breaking the rules and never get called out by the media for their hypocrisy and cheating ways. Now obviously the Patriots' underhanded tactics aren't a reflection of Robert Kraft as I consider him a stand-up guy and a class act, but unfortunately for him as the owner of that team, he will always have that blemish on his record of owning a franchise with so many bad marks against it with so little justice served. 2243. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.21.2013 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Somehow, it just seems nasty, even though Hamlin isn't married, to refer to his daughter as the litte b******... Let's just get the euthanasia and put the former Busch Clash to a much more dignified end than it's getting. 2244. 18fan posted: 01.21.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you also still try to blame Kyle Busch solely for his performance in the 2008 Chase without remembering that he had mechanical failures in the first three races and was caught up in a wreck at Talladega and had to pit for fuel while running in the top 5 at Homestead with two laps to go. (I'm still convinced that Carl Edwards had an oversized gas tank at both Texas and Homestead that year) Other than that they were all top 10 finishes except for when he melted a bead at Martinsville. Only people who judge solely on number of titles would take the stand you do about the 1991-2005 Atlanta Braves. Since divisional play began in 1969, only three other teams have won 5 division titles in a row. Next you will probably try to piss on the 1969-1971 Baltimore Orioles for winning over 100 games three years in a row but only winning 1 World Series. 2245. David posted: 01.21.2013 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm voting for Michael McDowell (provided that his team didn't take their money and go home already) because if his performance at Talladega is any indication (changing lanes when the leaders were lapping him), I want him to start up front for this (hypothetically speaking) horrible idea just so he can start a big wreck and blow this into NASCAR's face. That would make my day." As long as no one is hurt, right? 2246. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.21.2013 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where I stand on the '91-'05 Braves as a huge fan of the team is frustrated. Watching them fail over and over again in the playoffs wore on me. Watching the Falcons blow the game yesterday, a few months after watching the Braves return to the playoffs fall apart after the "deep outfield infield fly rule" was deja vu. Thank goodness I was too young to remember the 1988 Atlanta Hawks crushing Game 7 loss to the Celtics and Larry Legend. 2247. 18fan posted: 01.21.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, now that you give that perspective I change what I said in my previous post. It must have been frustrating to watch your team go into the playoffs every year with high expectations and fail almost every time (That sounds a lot like fans of teams quarterbacked by Peyton Manning). Living in the LA area, I do know how it feels to watch your local team who adds a bunch of talent and then doesn't win just get absolutely destroyed in the national media. With the Dodgers I kind of care, but I don't care at all about the Lakers and if they don't win I really don't care. This year I will go to my 5th race at Auto Club Speedway and, while the racing may get spread out, it is still really cool to be at a race. I was there when Harvick passed Jimmie on the last lap, which I believe is the last time I rooted for Kevin Harvick at any point of a race, just because that was the fourth race I had been to and the first two had been dominated by Jimmie and the third was close to being dominated by Jimmie. About Auto Club, the last three races there have been 400 miles. The first 400 miler (2010 fall) was a great race in full sunlight. The two March races have both been run under overcast skies and last year's was shortened by rain. The 2010 fall race was the best race I've been to as there was great racing throughout the pack all day, but the last two have been rather uneventful (except for the last lap pass in 2011 and Tony Stewart's repeated slide-jobs in 2012). 2248. cjs3872 posted: 01.22.2013 - 12:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, just two of Joe Montana's Super Bowls werewon by the start of the fourth quarter. Both of the games against the Bengals were very competitve, though the first one of those didn't start out that way, as the 49ers led 20-0 at halftime of Montana's first Super Bowl, but the Bengals battled back and made it a close game by dominating the second half. And also, what I was referring to by Dale, Sr. and Jeff Gordon sanbagging was that they did it just to gain an up-front starting position for the second segment. Most intelligent drivers have been runing in the back a some point for yeas trying to avoid the big wreck, but they'venever done so to gain a competitve advantage. Dale, Sr. and Gordon gained a competitve advantage in the 1997 Busch Clash, which is why they went away from the invert for 1998. Actually, Dale, Sr.'s charges in 1991, '93, and '95 were exactly what the invert was intended for, because you could actually predict who was going to win the event for the last few years before the event was split into two segments by halfway. And as for those mentioning broadcasters they wish they could vote for, any of the old-timers are far superior to anyone doing it now, with the possible exception of TNT's two color analysts, who remind me of the older generation of commentators. That list would include guys like Jim McKay, Keith Jackson, Bill Flemming, Ken Squier, and Bob Jenkins among the lead broadcasters, and Jackie Stewart, Ned Jarrett, David Hobbs, Sam Posey, Bobby Unser, and Benny Parsons among the color analysts, and the likes of Chris Economaki, Brock Yates, Larry Nuber, and Jack Arute among the pit reporters, and even somone like Chris Schenkel or Dave Diles in the host position, telling viewers what has been going on, such as cars out of the race and other such information. Sadly, many of those commentators have passed away. And I don't think you'll ever see a report such as the one Diles gave regarding oil on the track that he did after Swede Savage's crash in the 1973 Indianapolis 500, when he actualy wiped oil off the front of Joe Leonard's car, and referred to the track conditions in the interview with Jerry Grant he did after Savage's crash as unsafe. The sanctioning bodies will never allow any commentators to say anything aout running on an unsafe track, but the commentators back then pulled no punches. They called it as they saw it, and they didn't care who's feelings were hurt. They reported on the race, and if that meant critizing officials, drivers, or even the sanctioning body, then so be it. 2249. murb posted: 01.22.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Richard Childress has now officially confirmed that Harvick is going to SHR in 2014. Not surprisingly. The best part about all this? Austin Dillon will be carrying on Dale Earnhardt's legacy just because he will be running the same number and essentially the same paint job!!! It's gonna be awesome!!!! Just kidding. It's gonna be annoying as hell. I wonder how many little vignettes BSPN is gonna do on it over the next two years. My guess is anywhere from 10-15. 2250. Paul posted: 01.22.2013 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope that when Austin eventually takes over the #3 Cup car in 2014, RCR gives him a paint scheme similar to that of Dale's 1997 car, because knowing Austin and "The RCR Way", he might just have the same number of wins and DNFs that Dale had that season: Zero. 2251. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.22.2013 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hope that when Austin eventually takes over the #3 Cup car in 2014, RCR gives him a paint scheme similar to that of Dale's 1997 car, because knowing Austin and "The RCR Way", he might just have the same number of wins and DNFs that Dale had that season: Zero." That pretty much sums up Dale's 1997. He had the flip at Daytona and got back in the car to finish the race which added to his legend, but after that he was invisible. I love the pre race interview he did with Ned Jarrett towards the end of that season at the Fall Dega race. Remember, he was still fifth in points (where he would finish). Ned asked Dale if it had been a good season. Ned can't even finish the question and Dale immediately answer's "No, no." He then self consciously adds "yeah, we're fifth in points" with all the enthusiasm he normally reserved for discussing his 1991 Winston Cup points battle, but you could tell he wasn't happy cause he was getting blown off the track by Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, Jeff Gordon, Dale Jarrett, Jeff Gordon, Mark Martin, and Jeff Gordon. I mean it wasn't even close. That is a true competitor. There is this other driver out here kicking my ass handily every week and I think that really sucks. It is funny though that he completely overshadowed the 1-2-3 Daytona 500 finish for HMS while Rick was battling leukemia. For a guy who only won that race once, he was the main story from a historical standpoint for an awful lot of those races. 1986: The jinx begins, Dale runs out of gas while in prime slingshot position. 1990: Dale domination undone in the final corner by a piece of bell housing. 1991: Dale comes up short again 1993: The Dale and Dale Show, as Earnhardt once again falls short 1995: The Earnhardt Charge comes up one position short 1996: The Dale and Dale Show Part II: No Revenge. The 7 time champ still winless in the sport's biggest race. 1997: I got in the ambulance and realized the wheels were still on the car. 1998: Dale dominates again and.....oh my God he actually won it! 2000: This race was so bad, the main story was Dale's epic interview that accurately summed up the racing and what Big Bill's reaction would be to that. The second best angry interview ever behind only his post race interview after The Great Wilkesboro Incident Of Eighty Nine. 2001: They are still making books about this one. 2252. cjs3872 posted: 01.23.2013 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, as for Dale, Sr. in the Daytona 500, let's not forget that he was the first rookie to have a really serious chance to win in 1979, when faulty pit strategy, which also cost him a shot in the 1980 race, reared it's ugly head, as he did not stop on what proved to be the last caution (with nearly 60 laps to go), and finished eighth, and wasn't even the highest finishing rookie (Chuck Bown, who finished seventh, was), and would have given Buddy Baker a real run for it in 1980 if not for more faulty pit strategy. Earnhardt also had one of only two cars that could compete with Bobby Allison in the 1982 race (Darrell Waltrip had the other), but suffered engine failure that was somewhat self-inflicted when he ran out of gas on lap 35 while leading. And let's also not forget that when Cale Yarborough passed Darrell Waltrip on the final lap of the 1984 race, in my opinion, the best Daytona 500 ever run, Earnhardt followed him through and actually finished second. You mentioned 1986, but I believe he also had the 1987 race won, but was the victim of even more faulty pit strategy as his team changed right side tires on the last pit stop (everyone that finished ahead of him took on only fuel), which cost him the lead, as he had just passed Bill Elliott on the track to get the lead, and in 1989, a faulty carburetor cost him a chance to hold off and really race Ken Schrader, though Darrell Waltrip won anyway on gas mileage, and Alan Kulwicki would have won if not for a flat tire. And after finally winning in 1998, he set two Daytona 500 records in 1999 by finishing second. the first record he set was most second place finishes with five, and the other was top five finishes with 12. I didn't bring the others up DSFF, because you pretty much had them covered. 2253. 18fan posted: 01.23.2013 - 1:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mr. Bill France, Sr. would probably have rolled over in his grave if he'd seen that deal." 2254. Baker posted: 01.23.2013 - 10:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kubica fan Ireland, Are you trying to act like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady haven't contributed to there teams losses int he playoffs? For years everyone tried to blame Manning's defense, yet the only year he won it all it was defense who stepped up in a huge way to carry them to a championship. I am not even going to get into the numbers with Manning because he has been an obvious turnover machine and choke artist in the playoffs it is not even worthy my time or energy to argue. Tom Brady before this season had a career 86.0 playoff rating to Joe Montana's 95.6 almost 10 full points lower. I would also like to point out anything over 90 back int he 80s was phenomenal whereas today over half the league can do it because of the offensive bais rules. Lets not even talk about Brady winning and AFC Championship game on a bogus tuck rule call that almost every time I have seen since is never called a tuck rule incompletion. When it comes to the biggest and brightest stage no one kept his cool like Joe Cool. He is the only player in NFL history who never at any point let the big moments become bigger than him. He became even more dominant and perfect on the biggest stage going for 11 touchdowns to ZERO interceptions. Tom Brady has a nice looking 9-1 ratio, however, that is 2 less TDs in an extra game and the dreaded turnover. In a vaccum you can make an argument that Tom Brady shines almost as bright as Joe Montana, but when you take those numbers and compare them to the rest of the competition in there respective era you would clearly see Joe Montana is like the sun lighting up the day time sky while Brady is the much dimmer moonlight. If Joe Montana had all the same protection todays QBs are afforded as well as the no contact rules after 5 yards and defenseless reciever/targeting calls he would have eaten defenses alive. And lastly how can one put too much stock into win/loss records when the entire goal for ever team and player in the NFL is to be world champions? Winning is what the entire sport is about and as a QB you are the the most important part in the equation. Joe Montana never failed once in his attempt to be world champion even when his back was against the wall against Cincinnati. Tom Brady has now failed twice and failed to overcome the big blow from the Giants both times. Even in his comeback against the Rams it was the kicker who made the game winning play whereas Joe Montana didn't let it come down to his kicker. I understand and fully respect that Tom Brady is without a doubt the greatest QB of his generation, but any comparison to Joe Montana is laughable at best. 2255. Baker posted: 01.23.2013 - 10:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh I left out the best part. Joe Montana posted a triple digit passer rating in each of his 4 super bowls. He was the greatest ever and never let it come down to the other 52 players to screw it up. If Manning or Brady were as good as Joe Montana they wouldn't have let it come down to lack of weapons, bad defense or any other argument you Brady/Manning apologists can come up with. 2256. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 01.23.2013 - 11:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't call yourselves world champion, that really annoys us Europeans. We don't understand why you have the WORLD SERIES when mlb is the only major baseball league. The nfl winners are not world champions since they only face competition in America. We in Ireland do not refer to the winners of the all-Ireland as world champions. And I know foreign players contribute in baseball, hockey and basketball. 2257. Baker posted: 01.23.2013 - 12:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Foreign players come to play NFL football every year from Jason Pierre-Paul to Mathias Kiwanuka to Tyrone Crawford to Pierre Garcon and the list is endless. The NFL is the highest level of football in the entire world therefore the Super Bowl champions are world champions. Almost every other sport is played internationally and I would agree unless there is a world wide tourney they should not call themselves world champions. 2258. David posted: 01.23.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In Hendrick Motorsports's media session, he said that all cars were fully funded except for the #88 of Dale Earnhardt, Jr., which was eleven races short. Oh, the irony... 2259. murb posted: 01.23.2013 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I doubt that the 88 will be unsponsored for that long. Now, let's talk about the real story from the HMS Media Day: Kasey Kahne's Haircut. He looks like a cross between Vanilla Ice and the dance video instructor from Napoleon Dynamite (I think his name was like D-Qwon or something). Anyway, Kasey's new do is pretty wild if you haven't seen it yet. He must be really devoted to his sponsor Great Clips. Like, REALLY devoted. But I guess anything is better than the mullet that Pastrana sported for a while there last year. Apparently that was Jimmie Johnson's idea. I guess Jimmie was just trying to get someone to get a bad haircut so people could finally start forgetting about the bad sideburns and unibrow he had when he first came to Nascar. 2260. Paul posted: 01.23.2013 - 6:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Personally I prefer Pastrana's mullet to any of Kasey's pretty-boy haircuts, mostly because it's something different in today's NASCAR where most of the drivers are pretty much the same. The only time I thought Kasey's haircut was pretty cool was when it was a little longer and curlier back in '06-'07. It looked a lot like the haircut that Bill Elliott sported for so many years, which is a plus in my book. 2261. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.23.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ice Ice Kasey! If there is a problem yo he'll solve it. 2262. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.23.2013 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me know when sanity has returned. 2263. Paul posted: 01.23.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey DSFF, which basketball game result are you more happy about: North Carolina's big win over Georgia Tech, or No. 1 ranked dook being obliterated by No. 25 ranked Miami? I caught the end of the Tar Heel game (very good game defensively from what I saw), and afterwards SportsCenter went straight to highlights of Miami's 90-63 whooping of the Blue Devils. Man, dook didn't seem to have any heart out there tonight. I saw one play where a Miami player stole the ball and made a breakaway, and NOBODY was chasing after him. I've seen JaMarcus Russell make a bigger effort to lose weight than dook did at stopping Miami tonight. 2264. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.23.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Happiest about my Heels' win, they looked like they were heading towards a crappy year but appear to be turning it around. I don't think they are National Championship material, but they are not embarrassing either. But it always feels good to see dook lose, especially get blown out. Unfortunately I am at work and missed both. 2265. Mr X posted: 01.24.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul I'm curious, hows's the weather in southern Minnisota? I'm asking cause its bloody cold here. Wind chill of about minus 40 celcius all week. 2266. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2013 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Paul and DSFF, from what I understand, North Carolina State, traditionally the third wheel in NCAA basketball in North Carolina for the last 20 years, isn't bad either this year. Also, has anyone heard about the story that broke Monday of the Raiders head coach possibly throwing Super Bowl XXXVII to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, because there has been some serious allegations levied at then-head coach Bill Callahan from two players, Tim Brown and Jerry Rice, who I consider high character people. While I highly doubt Callahan threw that game, his decision to change his game plan 36 hours before the game is highly dubious, but if it's true that Callahan threw that game, that would just about be on par with what happened in the 1919 World Series. And on the racing front, Speedway Motorsports (Bruton Smith and Eddie Gossage)is once again speaking out against the start-and-park teams, saying that the should be eliminated from the sport. Frankly, I think NASCAR took a big step to this end by eliminating the exemption rule for the Cup series, though it will not show immediately. While I agree that something must be done about the start-and-parks, I also think that fewer cars on the track make for a better flowing race, because fewer cars mean fewer chances for caution periods, and while many fans dislike the extended periods of green flag racing seen at the intermediates last year, the longer green flag periods without many cautions do make for a better flowing race, because you didn't have all the stops and starts that interupt the flow of a race, much like penalty-filled football games and foul-filled basketball games make for frustrating games to watch, because there's no flow to them. And of course, another good thing about the races with extended periods of green flag racing and few caution is that there are fewer chances for that wave-around to give up to half the field laps back. 2267. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yikes! I don't envy that, Mr. X (btw, for my fellow Fahrenheit using Americans, -40 degrees Celsius is equal to -40 degrees Fahrenheit). It's not nearly that cold over here where I am, as it is only -8 degrees F (-22 degrees C) right now, with a wind chill of about -16 degrees F (-27 degrees C). At my mom's house, which is about 180 miles north of where I am, the wind chill is about -22 degrees F (-30 degrees C), and apparently there's a chance that my sister's school might be two hours late tomorrow. GASP! For all of my warmer weather friends out there, the school that I went to in Buffalo, MN was hardly ever delayed or cancelled because of weather, so this is a monumental moment, so to speak. I remember one day during my senior year when the temperature was a legit -30 degrees outside and we had school that day without a delay. It was just another day in Minnesota in February LOL. 2268. Mr X posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thats just not fair, living in the city I don't ever remember having any snow day in my life and being as I graduated high school in June 2011 my school life is fresh in my memory, there was the occasional day where we would get a foot of snow overnight and school would start late but thats it. Currently there`s no wind so its a toasty -34 degrees C, or -29 F. 2269. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I did hear about Tim Brown's allegations of Bill Callahan throwing away the Super Bowl in '02 because he wanted to see his good friend Jon Gruden win instead. I haven't heard Jerry Rice make those comments like I did Brown, but given the strong character of those two, as well as the somewhat shady character that Callahan possesses (he called the Raiders "the dumbest team in America" not even one year after their Super Bowl loss), and it wouldn't surprise me if these allegations turn out to be true. And given the fact that the Raiders haven't posted a winning season since that Super Bowl loss, it wouldn't surprise me if Callahan put a curse on the franchise either. The irony of this that Brown's comments were made public the same day that Jerry Jones named Bill Callahan the new play caller for the Cowboys, which makes you wonder whether he'll change the gameplan before games next season like he allegedly did prior to Super Bowl XXXVII. Hopefully this doesn't affect Brown's chances at being selected for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but I wouldn't put it past the voters to use this against Brown this year. As for the start-and-parks, what do the critics want NASCAR to do? Lower the field sizes so that only the teams with money will make money, while those that have so little funding that they HAVE to start-and-park aren't in the field and make no money? And what if a start-and-parker makes the field while a fully-funded car misses the race? Will they force the start-and-parker to relinquish his/her starting position? I say if you don't like start-and-parks, don't start-and-park. Do what I and most other race fans do and focus on the drivers who actually have a shot at winning the race. Who cares whether a team like TBR or NEMCO choose to start-and-park rather than ride around in 32nd all day. Either way, they're not going to be a contender, and they're actually probably better off pulling in early so as not to become a rolling chicane on the track. And if their concern is that there's no enough fully-funded teams out there, then maybe they should consider revoking their "four full-time cars on a team" rule, because that rule took away a Roush ride that would have added one more fully-funded team on the track and prevent one start-and-park car from "stealing prize money". Or better yet, figure out a way to either race the purse, lower the entry fee, or make the cars not so expensive for these smaller teams. If they can do that, then we'll see the number of start-and-park teams drop significantly. Until then, this trend will continue. If you haven't gotten used to seeing cars pull in early to save their equipment and collect their prize money, you'll never get used to it because this has been going on for five years now with no signs of coming to an end. 2270. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One more thing. Isn't Bruton Smith the same guy that wanted NASCAR to have mandatory cautions during races to "keep the fans excited"? Why does he of all people want start-and-park teams to be banned from NASCAR? Wouldn't it make more sense for his ridiculous "mandatory cautions" proposal if they were to have start-and-park teams in the field, so as to have more cars in the race? More cars on the track equals more chances for collisions to happen which equals more cautions. In fact, why doesn't he propose to have start-and-park teams start up front at all times to as to "add excitement on those lovely double-file restarts", while increasing the odds of one of those cautions that he so desperately wants to see occur? For a guy who Darrell Waltrip described as "knowing more about racing than anybody" prior to the disastrous inaugural Cup race at Kentucky, he sure doesn't put two and two together very well. 2271. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Scott Riggs will drive the #92 truck for the first five races of 2013 for Ricky Benton's Truck team, with the possibility of adding more races and even running a full schedule if additional sponsorship can be found. If Riggs hadn't sucked up his pride and returned to NASCAR in 2010 as a start-and-park driver after being out of the sport for about a year because he refused to start-and-park for TBR, he would have never gotten his opportunity at Martinsville last season when he finished 5th for the small, part-time team. As they say in show business, he would have been "out of sight, out of mind." This is a pretty incredible story of a driver with a once bright future having trouble once he reached Cup, losing his ride, and eventually having to start-and-park just to make a living. And once he got his opportunity to run a full race, he made the most of it and drove his way to a clean 5th place finish on NASCAR's smallest circuit, and because of that, Riggs has five races guaranteed for next season with a full schedule still a possibility. If it weren't for start-and-parking, Riggs would have never gotten that opportunity that eventually would have rewarded him with at the very least a part-time Truck ride. If Bruton Smith and Eddie Gossage had their way, Riggs would have been "out of sight, out of mind." So thank you to NASCAR for not outlawing this practice, because without it, Riggs might still be unemployed. 2272. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was watching clips of Super Bowl 34 between the Rams and the Titans. One of the more underrated Superbowl's with a dramatic ending 2273. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heh, down South schools get cancelled if snow is even mentioned. We are griping like hell now cause the temps are in the 30s. I don't think Callahan intentionally sabatoged the '02 Super Bowl, I just think he is a shitty coach. Changing the game plan 2 days prior to the game after two weeks of planning another way wasn't to throw the game, it was the act of a coach that doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground. Throw in Gannon's stink bomb, the worst Super Bowl QB performance I can remember watching live (I was only 2 when the '86 Pats QB was shredded by the Bears making sure Buddy Ryan would have a job for many years in the future leading to much hilarity) and you have a recipe for disaster. Super Bowl 34 was an outstanding game with a heart stopping finish. 2274. murb posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) haha, I'm just barely in my senior year of high school right now, and we just had a snow day last week for just the second time since I moved to Idaho (at the end of 6th Grade). Bruton Smith is on my top five most hated people in Nascar list (along with these guys in no particular order: Brain France, Joey Logano, The Danica Hype Machine Feminist Writers, and Jack Roush). So I never really do anything more than laugh at the things he says. 2275. Baker posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Yeah they do. Its beyond ridiculous. I live in Ohio where we get a lot of snow, not as much as some places, but the lake effect gives us more than we need. About 7 years ago I drove to Cleveland, Tennessee every weekend to visit my high school flame at Lee University. One night it snowed and lightly powderd the campus. I mean lightly powders as in you could still see sprinkles of green grass and black road through it. Well campus was shut down friday and even applebees was closes friday. I was happy because that mean she didn't have to go to class or work that night, but I couldn't stop laughing at how over the top the south is about snow. I mean how in the world have the top drivers in Cup history come from the south when they don't even have enough hair on their nuts to drive in the snow? Oh, we orderd a pizza and I had to go pick it up because they were not sending out there drivers. 2276. David posted: 01.24.2013 - 11:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So thank you to NASCAR for not outlawing this practice, because without it, Riggs might still be unemployed." This is exactly why start-and-park teams have never bothered me. At the very least, they keep people employed. 2277. Daniel posted: 01.24.2013 - 11:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott Riggs now has a possible full-time ride after having to start and park, Landon Cassill got a full-time ride last year after being a start and park driver, Tommy Baldwin Racing now has two-full time cars after being a start and park team, Joe Nemechek is able to run the full Nationwide schedule because of the money he makes from start and park in Cup, David Stremme's team has been bought out and he will now get to run the full schedule, except the 500, and go the full-distance after being a start and park team. They really need to shut their traps about the start and parks. 2278. Scott B posted: 01.24.2013 - 11:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Obvious solution to start & parks: prorate the prize money based on the percentage of laps completed. Run 95% of the race, get 95% of the money you're eligible for. Run 10% of the race, get 10% of the money. Problem solved, since 10% of last place money won't be profitable no matter how much a team cuts corners. However... I really don't see what you gain by driving these teams out of the sport. It's not like sponsored teams that would run the full distance are getting sent home on a frequent basis by S&P's. When it does happen, well, it doesn't say much about your team's chances when you can't outqualify half a dozen teams that are just going through the motions. 2279. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol, it's supposed to be in the low 30s on Monday, and compared to what we've gotten the past week, that seems really warm haha. Kenny Wallace wrote on his Facebook page that he is currently running 9 Nationwide races next year, possibly more if sponsorship can be found, in a 2nd RAB Racing car. He said that he made sure to get 9 races slated for this season because that would put him at 900 career NASCAR starts, which I think would make him just the fourth driver to reach 900 total starts, behind Richard Petty, Michael Waltrip, and Ricky Rudd. 2280. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HA! I just read a quote from an interview with Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. When asked whether he and Danica were more than just friends, he replied "That's personal." Hmmm...I'm getting this sneaking suspicion that there's more going on with those two than they're letting on. I say this because those two were always talking to each other before races last year, and a couple times I saw one of them approach the other immediately after the race. One time Danica even came up and hugged Ricky. Other elements that intrigue me about this are the fact that Ricky is a good looking young man who has had success in NASCAR, and Danica has often gravitated towards drivers who have had success (such as Junior and Tony). And isn't it just great timing that she and her husband are now going through a divorce? Look, I'm not saying anything, I haven't said a word yet. But when you add all the elements up and put them together with the media's question to Ricky, along with his response, and we might just have an intriguing story to watch out for lol. 2281. Kubica Fan Ireland posted: 01.24.2013 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What changes would you guys make to the chase. I know most of you would get rid of it, but since that won't happen till 2015 at least, that's out. I would have ROUND 1 BRISTOL ROUND 2 DOVER ROUND 3 WATKINS GLEN ROUND 4 TALLADEGA ROUND 5 CHARLOTTE ROUND 6 MARTINSVILLE ROUND 8 HOMESTEAD ROUND 9 DARLINGTON ROUND 10 ATLANTA 2282. murb posted: 01.24.2013 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica and Stenhouse? That's pretty hilarious... Can you imagine if they end up getting married? We'll have a husband and wife combo in the Cup Series. I don't like either Ricky or Danica, but damn, that would be pretty interesting. And hilarious, just as I said. I've always thought that there was a thing between her and Tony for a while. They flirted like hell with each other at her SHR introductory press conference, so I figured that maybe something was going on. But Stenhouse's comments in that interview lead me to believe otherwise. 2283. murb posted: 01.24.2013 - 2:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch has officially resigned with JGR, and he is also gonna run 25 NNS races this year. TWENTY FIVE?!?!?! Ugh, and here I thought he was taking a step back from the minor league double dipping. Looks like this year's NNS Series may not be as fun to watch, if he reverts back to his 2008-2010 days and wins double digit races. 2284. Schroeder51 posted: 01.24.2013 - 2:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...Well, it wouldn't be the first time there'd be a husband and wife combo out on the track in a NASCAR race. Remember Elton Sawyer and Patty Moise in the Busch Series back in the '90s? 2285. FloridaFan88 posted: 01.24.2013 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch will drive the #54 car for JGR, which means that KBM will only have one team in NNS with Parker Kligerman. Busch will go back to his winning ways. Sigh. 2286. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't mind Cup drivers running Nationwide races, but it's the amount of races that they run that irritates me. Especially when they are in great equipment, as Kyle will be this season for JGR. I prefer it when Cup drivers who run Nationwide races do so in less competitive equipment, such as what Kyle did last year for his own team or when Greg Biffle used to drive on-and-off for Baker Curb Racing when Roush didn't have a seat for him. I think it's more worthwhile if Cup drivers drive for smaller teams because they are more capable of getting the most out of their equipment than drivers with less experience, while helping that team gain information that will help them grow in the future. When it comes to drivers like Kyle, Joey, Brad, and Kevin who are constantly double-dipping in great equipment, I just think that's a waste because those teams aren't really gaining anything in the long run except for adding wins to their resume. 2287. 18fan posted: 01.24.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to what Kyle said, it was JGR that made the decision for him to run those races as part of his contract extension, not Kyle's decision. Another part of Kyle's extension is that KBM's NNS and truck teams get JGR engines. 2288. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tom Brady was fined $10,000 for Ty Cobbing Ed Reed. Frank Gore was fined $10,000 for wearing his socks too low. So violating the dress code results in the same penalty as attempting to injure another player. Good to see the NFL cares so much about player safety. 2289. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.24.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I believe the voters will punish Tim Brown for his comments for this year. What I think it is enough for Andre Reed to be voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Andre Reed had been closer than Cris Carter to get in for the last couple years. My theory even before Tim Brown's comments was a Wide Receiver will be voted into Canton this year because I believe Marvin Harrison is going to be eligible to be in the 2014 class since His final season was in 2008. Tim Brown to me always had been what if to me because he tore ligaments in his left knee in the opener against the Chargers in 1989 returning a kickoff. Tim Brown was a great Wide Receiver, but was also a great returner on special teams. Tim Brown was a starting Wide Receiver of his only game of the season in 1989. When he came back, he was behind Willie Gault and Mervyn Fernandez back in the early 1990's on the depth chart. Tim was a third down Wide Receiver back in the early 1990's. That meant he lost some stats that would have made him only behind Rice and Gonzalez in Receptions instead of being 5th in receptions. I remember what the Raiders had for Quarterbacks for the early 1990's though because I was older than you are. Jay Schroader wasn't an accurate passer despite having a strong arm and Todd Marinovich was a bust. I thought even Jeff Hostetler was better than Jay Schroader and Marinovich. When Hostetler got hurt when he was a starter there, there was a decline in Quarterback play. I thought the top 3 Quarterbacks the Raider had in the 1990's was Hostetler, Gannon than Jeff George. If George had a better 1998 season, I would ranked him Higher. Gannon only played one season in the 1990's for the Raiders and that is why I got him number 3. I got Strahan, Bettis, Larry Allen, Ogden, and now Andre Reed for being voted into the Pro Football Hall of fame. I see Ogden getting in this year based on the fact the voters put in 2 offensive linemen for the 2012 Hall of Fame Class. Larry Allen is too good of a player not to get in his time on the ballot. I don't see voters put in 3 offensive linemen in one Hall of Fame class and don't see Will Shields getting in this year. Jermone Bettis really has no reason to get in since Marshall Faulk, and Curtis Martin is in. The fact is Jerome Bettis has the stats to get in this year because I thought Faulk and Martin were better Running backs. 2290. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.24.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Isn't it strange that Cris Carter, one of the greatest players of all-time to not have a ring, still isn't in the hall of fame? 2291. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.24.2013 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Danica and Stenhouse are teaming up to produce the world's shortest human being ever if they breed. 2292. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And NicoRosbergFan, he's not even the greatest player without a ring not in the Hall of Fame. In fact, he's not even the greatest Vikings player without a ring not in the Hall of Fame. That distinction belongs to Jim Marshall, who played in every game during the Vikings' first 19 years (1961-'79) and never once missed a game during his entire NFL career. And he was the leader on defense for a Vkings team that went to four Super Bowls, but were overmatched by each of it's opponents, three of whom were legendary champions, the '73 Dolphins and the legendary Steelers and Raiders teams of the 70s. 2293. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, It isn't strange for Cris Carter not getting in yet. Wide Receivers do have a hard time to get into the Hall of Fame despite not being at the point for Safeties and special team players. The only reason Jerry Rice in on his first try was the voters would have looked Fools for not voting him in since Jerry Rice to this day is the the best Wide Receiver to play the game since 1950. Cris Carter's stats do hold up well at this team though despite it being easier for Wide Receivers to break single season records since 2000 like Calvin Johnson breaking Jerry Rice's Receiving yard record. John Stallworth took a long time to get in. Bob Hayes needed the senior committee to select him for the voters to get him in. Lynn Swann took a long time to get in, but I have a hard time to see why he got in outside of big plays because his career was short and he did have injuries also. What really needs to look at is What Wide Receivers didn't get in. Drew Pearson not being in really sticks out. I think his Career ending car crash did hurt his chances for getting in because he might have had 2 to 4 seasons left in his career and that meant there would have been better odds for him to get in. Harold Jackson not being in does stick out because he was one the best Wide Receiver of the 1970's. My theory is if there was no strike in 1982, Harold Carmichael would have been in the Hall of Fame by now. Harold had great numbers from the era he played in. Mark Clayton actually has a case to get in, but his prime basically ended after 1989 and had injury issues 2 of his last 4 season in the league. The other problem is Mark's Receiving stats didn't hold up in test of time. Andre Reed not being in sticks out. I think if he didn't missed 10 games in 1994, he might have a had slightly better shot to get in. Andre's problem was when he played. What was great stats in the 1980's for a Wide Receiver is only considered good stats because the fact is there has been a lot of 100 reception seasons since 1990. Andre play 5 seasons in the 1980's and the fact is Andre's 1992 season would have been good enough to get in the problem today with 65 catch, 913 yards and only 3 receptions. Andre was a big part of the Bills offense during the 4 straight Superbowl years from an offensive standpoint besides Kelly and Thomas. 2294. Paul posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact that neither Jim Marshall, Jerry Kramer, or Mike Curtis were even on the ballot for the Hall of Fame is just mind-boggling to me. I guess their best hope to get in is to be nominated as a senior member instead, which is how Dave Robinson got on the ballot for this year, as he deserves to get inducted as well Packerfan4ver, one reason why Jeff George struggled in '98 was because Jon Gruden, the new Raiders head coach at the time, changed the offense to a west coast offense system. George's best attribute was his powerful arm, and loved to throw deep passes, and as a result struggled to adapt to the short passing that makes up the west coast offense. The next year the Raiders got Rich Gannon, who was perfect for the west coast offense, and George went to the Vikings and was allowed to throw the ball deep to Randy Moss, who loved to catch the deep balls. I only wish that George had stuck around for another year or two because he and Moss made a great team for that one season. 2295. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot about Cliff Branch not being in does stick out for Wide Receiver not being in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. 2296. 44andJoe posted: 01.24.2013 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >We don't understand why you have the WORLD SERIES when mlb is the only major baseball league. The nfl winners are not world champions since they only face competition in America. Which is exactly why they're world champions - there aren't any fully professional leagues elsewhere in the world, so why /shouldn't/ they be World Champions? If somebody else wants to take a world championship in baseball or football, run a professional league and take it. As it stands, that statement is just "boo hoo/lol America" sour grapes. 2297. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim Marshall isn't in the Hall Of Fame? You've gotta be shitting me. I didn't know that. Durability AND greatness? What else do they want? Is it just me or is every HOF a joke? 2298. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packerfan4ver, not only is it a crime that Clif Branch is not in the Hall of Fame (along with other Raider greats like punter Ray Guy and Dave Dalby, the center on all three Raider Super Bowl champions), but it's at least as big a crime that Drew Pearson is not in, either. Aside from the great Steeler duo, no receiver in that era caught more memorable passes than Pearson. The "Clint Longley Game", the "Hail Mary Game", and the miracle comeback by the Cowboys in a playoff game in Atlanta in 1980, were all games in which Drew Pearson caught the winning TD, and let's not forget just how close Pearson came to putting the Cowboys in Super Bowl XVI. If not for Eric Wright's horsecollar tackle, which is illegal today, Pearson would have scored, sending the Cowboys to their sixth Super Bowl, and the 49er dynasty might never have started. And speaking of the 49ers, Joe Gibbs, who knows something about winning Super Bowls, since he won three of them himself in four tries, has picked the 49ers to win their sixth Super Bowl in as many appearances. If they do, that would be an incredible feat. After all, their six Super Bowl titles would all be in consecutive appearances without a loss, and in football, where it's a one-game deal where luck can decide the winner, going 6-for-6 in Super Bowls would be a monumental feat, and tie the Pittsburgh Steelers six Super Bowl titles, but even they lost twice (Super Bowls XXX and XLV). 2299. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I believe that Jim Marshall is not in the Hall of Fame because he's responsible for the single most infamous blunder in NFL history, the 60-yard wrong way run against the 49ers in San Francisco in 1964 that resulted in a 49er safety. But he did come back after that and help the Vikings win that game. And yes, that blunder was even more infamous than Garo Yepremian's bobble in Super Bowl VII tht cost the Dolphins the only shutout in Super Bowl history. And when you make such a monumental blunder, and it becaomes what you're best known for, it creates an image in the voters' minds that they can't get out of their minds. Two of Marshall's fellow defensive linemen, Carl Eller and alan Page, the only defensive lineman ever to win the NFL's MVP (1971) are in, as is safety Paul Krause, the NFL's all-time leader in interceptions with 81. And it took a long time for Krause to get in the Hall of Fame, as well. Of course, being on four Super Bowl losing teams without a victory doesn't help Marshall's cause, either. 2300. cjs3872 posted: 01.24.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 44andJoe, they called it the World Series because it was the only time until the mid-1990s that teams from the American and National Leagues played each other. In fact, for it's first 30 years, it marked the only time that there was any official on-field competition between the American and National Leagues. That didn't change until the All-Star Game was inaugurated in 1933. And for more than 60 years, the All-Star Game and the World Series were the only times that both leagues actually competed against each ther on the same field at the same time. The irony was that it wasn't until 1958 that Major League Baseball was even played west of the Mississippi River, when the Dodgers and Giants moved to Los Angeles and San Francisco, respectively. Prior to that, the western-most city that had a Major League team was St. Louis, which had the Cardinals and the Brwons until they moved to Baltiomore in 1954 and became the Orioles. 2301. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.24.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, It isn't just you that every Hall of Fame is a joke for the most part. The Green Packer Hall of Fame is an excellent Hall of Fame though. It has the major names of the Green Packers. They even have team Doctors, major contributors, GM's, and Head coaches even. Yes, they don't have Brett Favre. The thing is that is on Brett himself by the wayby his relationship with the Packers. Now granted a lot of the Players on the Packer Hall of Fame isn't Pro Football Hall of Fame worthy, but they were good players. 2302. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2013 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packerfan4ver, I think DSFF was referring to the sports Halls of Fame, not any individual teams. But there's going to be major oversights in each Hall of Fame. That's the nature of the business of having members of the media select those that will be Hall of Famers. I mentioned a few in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but I forgot to mention a very big one, and that's former Raider QB Ken Stabler, still the greatest Raider QB of all-time. (Yes, I know that Jim Plunkett has two Super Bowls to Stabler's one, but Plunkett had only three or four good years with the Raiders, while Stabler had them in five consecutive AFC Chanmpionship Games, still a record.) The list in baseball is almost too numerous to mention, and the Basketball Hall of Fame is just as guilty, though a few of the oversights have been rectified. It's too early to judge the NASCAR Hall of Fame at this time, since the group of those that will be inducted will be just the fourth. By the time 10 classes have been inducted, we'll know about their oversights, as well. It was, however, good to see that Bill France, Sr. was the first man inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame, just as George Halas was properly the first man inducted into Pro Football's Hall of Fame in 1963. And your point about Brett Favre is probably why they'll never retire his #4, or won't retire it for a very long time. The biggest problem there was him signing with the rival Minnesota Vikings, something that got Fran Tarkenton, the greatest Viking player of them all, upset, and for some reason, he never liked Favre in a Viking uniform, and was never afraid to criticize Favre every time he had a chance in his two years as a Viking, so much so that he advised Packer fans to tear up and burn their #4 jerseys. Favre playing for the Jets was one thing for Packer fans, but him playing for a divison rival was worse. The only thing worse than seeing Favre in a Vikings uniform for Packer fans would have been to see him in a Chicago Bears uniform. 2303. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I still think NASCAR made a big mistake by only inducting five people in its first Hall of Fame class. They should have inducted 15-20 people in its first class, and then five people every year after the inaugural year. NASCAR was over 60 years old when the first Hall of Fame class was inducted, and I think only inducting five people (1 for every 12 years of NASCAR) in its first class was far too low. Fran Tarkenton has always criticized Brett Favre, going back to his years with the Packers. He once said about him (paraphrasing) "No other great quarterback has made as many dumb mistakes that cost his team games than Brett Favre." I didn't really mind Favre coming to the Vikings at the time because he was certainly an upgrade over Tavaris Jackson and came just one bounty team short of making the Super Bowl (btw, how epic would that have been to see Favre vs. Peyton in the Super Bowl? I guarantee you the Vikings would have won and Peyton would have another notch against him by losing to the mistake-prone Favre). Plus, my family always liked Favre even though he and the Packers were often beating us from about '95-'07, so to see him put on a Vikings uniform was almost like a dream for us, and even though it only lasted two seasons (one great, one forgettable), it was still pretty cool to have Favre with the Vikings and make us a winning team again. The only thing that would have made it worse for Packer fans is if the Vikes had beaten the Bounty Saints and gone on to win the Super Bowl (which I'm confident they would have since the Colts had the choker Manning at quarterback and a defense that would have been no match for Favre/Peterson). I know I still have bad feelings towards Darren Sharper after he left us for the Bounty Saints in '09 and went on to win the Super Bowl, and I can imagine that Packer fans would probably feel more negatively about Favre given how long he had been with them compared to how long Sharper was with the Vikes. 2304. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.25.2013 - 7:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gearing up for the twice around-the-clock race in Daytona this weekend. I hate the start time though. It's pure crap and gives SPEED an excuse to not air the night-time parts of the race on TV. 2305. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stabler isn't in either? 2306. joey2448 posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reports are that Danica and Ricky Stenhouse jr are dating... I just wonder if this has anything to do with her divorce. Also they are both Rookie of the Year contenders in the Cup Series this year. Should be interesting 2307. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I agree with you comment. My feelings of Brett already changed before the trade to the Jets though. My feelings of Brett changing dated back to the fact he was playing for the will Brett retire storyline for years before 2008. I always got the feeling of Darren Sharper and Ryan Longwell was looked upon better upon Packer Fans when they left than Brett did in terms of the Vikings. Darren's circumstances was the fact Ted Thompson became gm the year Darren Sharper became a free agent. The Packers allowed him to walk. Ryan Longwell going to the Vikings was more of a business decision also by the Packers. Those two players didn't have the attitude Brett had against the Packers after he got traded to the Jets. Brett did stuff trying to hurt the Packers after he went to the Vikings in terms of giving players of teams outside the Vikings the Packers plays. Sharper and Longwell didn't give opposing players outside of the Vikings the Packers plays based what the media let out in terms of the Packers. 2308. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The other thing the way Packer fans in general looked at Darren Sharper as playmaker, but they didn't rank as high as Brett when Brett was the Packers even before Darren Sharper was with Vikings. Darren made big players, but the fans didn't like his tackling because of the bad angles he took at times with him missing tackles. That is a fair criticism of Darren by Packer fans because Darren at some points of his career did have good amount of tackles, but missed plenty of tackles also The Tackling part is one the things that might have him going to the Pro Football of Hall of Fame a long time. I know Deion Sanders was a bad tackler, but he also was one of the best kick returners ever besides besides Teams being afraid to throw to the Wide Receiver that has Deion Sanders as a matchup. I never saw teams really be afraid of throwing to where Darren Sharper was covering. 2309. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to say his tackling part is one the things that might have him not being voted in to the Pro Football of Hall of Fame a long time. I forgot mentioned factor is Voters usually don't vote safeties in. 2310. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 9:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stabler isn't in either?" I was surprised to see he was on NFL Network's "Top Ten Players Not in the Hall of Fame" list a few years ago because I had just assumed he was in. Too many great players that should be in are being left off the ballot because the voters get distracted by the great players that played their entire careers while the voters were watching football, and so they vote for these players once they become eligible, pushing the greats from the '60s and '70s back even further who should be in the Hall of Fame. I've always criticized the decision to put Steve Young in the HOF the year he first became eligible in 2005 because I never thought that he was that great to be a first ballot inductee. Especially since two quarterbacks named Kenny; Stabler and Anderson, are still being left out. Stabler was "Steve Young before Steve Young" with the tremendous scrambling and running ability and the gunslinger mentality, and Anderson has been considered by many as being better than Terry Bradshaw (who is in the Hall of Fame), but didn't have a great defense to make up for his mistakes. Also, Anderson was mentored by Bill Walsh during his first five NFL seasons and played under a similar west coast offense system that Joe Montana played under, leading the NFL in passing twice in that time span, so who's to say that Anderson couldn't accomplish what Montana did if he had a better supporting cast. "Reports are that Danica and Ricky Stenhouse jr are dating" Not surprised one bit as all the writing was on the wall. I randomly went on Twitter yesterday, saw Bob Pockrass' tweet about Ricky saying "That's personal" when asked about he and Danica, and I just knew that they were dating. I like how when each of them were asked about this, they gave different types of answers. Ricky obviously shied away from the question and gave a cop out answer instead of just saying "yes", but I like how Danica just said "Yes we are dating", almost like she was saying "Yep, you caught me. I'm dating a fellow driver. What are you gonna do about it." No dancing around the question, I like that. "I just wonder if this has anything to do with her divorce." I definitely think it had something to do with it. I don't think Ricky wooed her of her feet or anything, but I think that she developed an attraction for him during the season and it got to where she wanted to be with him more than her current husband, so she decided to "drop the dud" and pick up the two-time champ instead. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they started dating WHILE she was married, and that contributed to her marriage being broken. They didn't interview the husband about this, so we don't know his side of the story, but they did interview Danica, and she could say anything she wanted and the media would run with the story. "Also they are both Rookie of the Year contenders in the Cup Series this year. Should be interesting" What would be awkward is if Danica convinces Ricky to drop out of the running for Rookie of the Year so that she can win it instead (didn't Roush pay off John Andretti to drop out while contending for the 2006 Busch Series R.O.T.Y award?). What will be awkward is when the two of them hook up at Daytona or Talladega and we get one of the old male commentators making remarks about that. Could you imagine hearing D.W. say "Danica sure likes it when Ricky sticks his nose up there and gives her a big push."? *Shudder* 2311. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 9:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Deion Sanders, I was watching highlights from the 1994 NFC Championship Game last night and that battle between Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders was pretty spectacular. I think Irvin got the better of him that day, so Deion had to use the "5-yard jamming rule" to his advantage and jam Irvin at the line and within that entire 5-yard boundary to prevent Irvin from doing his signature "inside-outside" move on Deion. Pretty epic battle. I never thought of Darren Sharper as much of a tackler, as he was far better known for making interceptions than anything else. And you are right about the voters not putting safeties into the Hall of Fame. Unless you are a dominating force like Ronnie Lott, the chances of making the HOF are very small. Aside from special teams, safety is the most difficult position to be play and be inducted into the HOF. 2312. 44andJoe posted: 01.25.2013 - 12:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >didn't Roush pay off John Andretti to drop out while contending for the 2006 Busch Series R.O.T.Y award? Andretti shouldn't have been eligible in the first place; I have no idea what they were smoking when they said he was. 2313. Jim Davis posted: 01.25.2013 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ricky obviously shied away from the question and gave a cop out answer instead of just saying "yes", but I like how Danica just said "Yes we are dating", almost like she was saying "Yep, you caught me. I'm dating a fellow driver. What are you gonna do about it." No dancing around the question, I like that." I think this is more a function of Patrick's much greater experience at being under constant media scrutiny than any difference in personality. Patrick knows she can't keep her love life secret; Stenhouse hasn't learned that yet. 2314. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great. Another "story" that will be beaten into the ground while the actual competitors are out there competing for something important. 2315. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2013 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan (#2304), the problem with airing the nighttime action in the 24 Hours of Daytona live is that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to actually see the action, and the car numbers, even with the enhanced lighting. And also, more than half the race (about 13 hours) is run at night, unlike the 24 Hours of LeMans, which is run mostly in daylight. Remember that in 2001, SpeedVision, as it was then known, actually did air the ENTIRE 24-Hour race live, mainly because Dale Earnhardt, Sr. was in the event, and it was a big hit with fans. But another problem with airing the nighttime racing live is that there wouldn't be anyone watching the racing overnight, because they'd be asleep. Also remember that the first hour or two of the race has been broadcast live on FOX in recent years, which is why SPEED's coverage starts later than it used to. And Paul, I totally agree that there should have been a bigger class the first time, maybe 10, 12, or even 15 enshrinees. Remember that for the first class of the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1963, a whopping 25 men were enshrined. But I also think that limiting it to five for the forseeable fture isa good idea. But 10-15 years down the road, they may get into a situation where even five inductees per year is too many because they will have run out of people of that caliber to induct at the hard rate of five per year, and they may have to go to a voting percentge criteria, while keeping a minimum anount of inductees to make sure there are actually induction ceremonies. But I disagree with you that Danica and Ricky Stenhouse will be teaming up at Daytona and Talladega. Remember that Danica has Stewart-Haas (Tony Stewart and Ryan Newman) and the Hendrick brigade to team up with and Stenhouse has his Roush teammates (Carl Edwards and Greg Biffle) as well as fellow Trevor Bayne, who is employed by Roush, in the Wood Brothers #21 car to team up with in the draft. There might be times that Ricky and Danica might find each other, but I doubt it will be a concerted effort, because if they do make an effort to help each other, they'll probably be hurting their respective teams. 2316. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For some reason I didn't think this story would be that big of a deal, but it looks like I underestimated how much the media would run with this. Once again, a non-racing story dominates the news in a racing sport. 2317. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that, cjs, but if they did hook up at Daytona or Talladega, one of them would be helping out the other, and since they are both competing for Rookie of the Year, whomever finishes higher than the other would gain one more rookie point than the other, so I doubt that will happen because of possible point consequences. 2318. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.25.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unfortunately, for Stenhouse, he might be filling the role of "re-bound" for the media magnet. Sadly, us race fans will have to suffer through this paparazzi laden relationship. "I have a boyfriend and his name is Richard." ROFL! Danica is the motorsports equivalent of Honey Boo Boo in being a celebrity for no logical good reason. 2319. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, you bring up such a great point. If this relationship doesn't work out, Stenhouse will forever be known as "Danica's Ex", and will have to suffer through questions about he and Danica whether or not they remain a couple. Just look at the basketball player Kris Humphries, who will forever be known as "Kim Kardashian's Ex". The sad thing is I think Ricky is too naive to realize what he got himself into. If this relationship works out, then I wish them the best. But if it doesn't, which I wouldn't expect it to, he might have just dug his own grave; a grave that reads "Here lies Ricky Stenhouse, Jr.: Christian, son, racer, Danica's Ex". "Danica is the motorsports equivalent of Honey Boo Boo in being a celebrity for no logical good reason." Why is Honey Boo Boo a celebrity anyways? I've heard of the name, but I have no idea who she is or why she has gained fame. 2320. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good Lord, the Daytona 500 is still about a month from starting and I am already sick of the "Danica 24/7" situation this will dominate this entire season. Also, on behalf of all Winston Salem residents (they were "caught" together at the Bull Riding event here) I would like to apologize for being the place where this was sprung. 2321. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah Winston-Salem, the birth place of great NASCAR lore, including the Cup Series' former 33-year title sponsor, the car owner who started the #3's legacy, and now two rookie drivers hooking up and creating a media storm. DSFF, I wonder how many calls you will get today/tonight as a result of people becoming overly dehydrated as a result of vomiting too much. 2322. joey2448 posted: 01.25.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Could you imagine hearing D.W. say "Danica sure likes it when Ricky sticks his nose up there and gives her a big push."? *Shudder*" LOL Hahaha!!! 2323. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I'm off this weekend! Needless to say it's Miller Time! Right now Brad is the guest host for Charlotte radio station 106.5 The End. Pretty good songs so far. Kid Rock (knew that was coming), Alice In Chains, Godsmack, and Staind. He also played Beck's "Where It's At" which I never cared for, but it was really popular when I was first getting into Rock music in middle school. Seeing as how we are the same age, it probably brings him back. 2324. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2013 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I don't think Danica and Ricky would have any problem with helping each other. I go back to something Bobby Unser once said during an IROC race at Daytona. He said that "sometimes you have to help someone else win the race to get second for yourself". Sure the one behind would be helping the one in front, but the one behind would also be helping himself/herself. The bigger problem would be with the teams and the manufacturers. After all, it would be a case of a Roush car (Stenhouse) helping a Stewart-Haas/Hendrick car (Patrick), as well as a Ford helping a Chevrolet. I also find it more than a bit odd that Danica has said that Stenhouse has mentored her in the Nationwide Series. Stenhouse is not the kind of driver that can mentor anybody, nor is any of Roush's other Cup drivers. And Stenhouse has proven that he can't handle being under the microscope. Just look at his antics late in his Nationwide Series run in the #6 car. Sure he won races and the championship again, but he kept getting himself in situations he shouldn't have gotten into, did not seem to even want to communicate with his crew chief, and even defied orders not to race other drivers on the radio. And he's been mentoring Danica? Danica may be in even more trouble than I thought. If she wants to be mentored, she should look no further than her car owner, Tony Stewart, he of the 47 wins and three Cup championships. Stewart is the one she needs to look at for mentoring, not the wild Stenhouse. Heck, even Ryan Newman would be a better mentor than Stenhouse would be. And let's not forget all the times we've seen another young Roush driver, Trevor Bayne, talking to Hendrick Motorsports drivers Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson over the last two years. That's the kind of metoring that Danica needs, because they know how to cope with the good times and the bad times, something Stenhouse has a long way to go to learn about. 2325. murb posted: 01.25.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, Danica and Stenhouse. With both of them reeking of rookieness, can't you guys just see them taking each other out in a least one race this year (a la the Busch Brothers at Charlotte in 2007)? "It's a bummer for sure. I thought he was my boyfriend." - Danica 2326. murb posted: 01.25.2013 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seriously though, I hope it works out for them. Wanna know why? Paul sort of mentioned it before. Stenhouse is an insane talent, and if he can harness all of it, I think he could possibly be a Cup champion one day. But if he doesn't, and he fizzles out in Cup like many former successful NNS guys have (Reed Sorenson, Brian Vickers, and Martin Truex Jr. to a lesser extent), he will only be remembered as "Danica's Ex" or "Danica's Husband" or whatever. It would be a travesty to see someone who has that much talent and potential be remembered for something so unimportant and irrelevant to the sport. So basically, I guess I'm wishing Ricky good luck in his Cup career. I hope that this relationship with her doesn't bring him down. 2327. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's a bummer for sure. I thought he was my boyfriend." - Danica HA! That sounds exactly like something she would say. In all seriousness, what happens if they break up? How bad would that suck to still have to see your ex 38 weekends a year? And then they would have to compete for the quickest and better rebound flame, most likely leading them down an unhappy path. It just isn't smart. The phrase "Don't shit where you eat" is a staple of life advice for a reason. And here is another thing: since they are both crashing machines, what will that do to their relationship? I can actually see Stenhouse's career being derailed by this as he doesn't handle being under the microscope well. Make no mistake, he has talent and tons of it. It will take some reigning in for him to reach the upper elite level (like it did for Irvan and Gordon), but it is a possibility for him if he can get his attitude in straight. Why risk it for a curveless no-personality celebrity diva? Which leads me to another question: Why in the HELL did Roush not pair Fenning up with Ricky? This had to be a pressure move from Ford to team him with Carl. After the 2011 episode where he all but left only for Ford to throw the farm at him, they can't be happy with his disappearing act in 2012. That much money for that little exposure? I would be willing to bet Ford pressured Jack to make that move. Fenning could do wonders for Ricky. Look what he did with Kurt Busch! Ricky's attitude is bad, but it ain't Kurt Busch bad. Ford, for the money they are paying Cuz, need him to be visible as the #1 Ford guy. But he already isn't. Ford recently did a promo where all the Ford drivers drove their Gen 6 Fusions down the streets of Charlotte. Brad was leading the parade line with Carl behind him. How does that have to make Carl feel? Throw in Biff's week to week relationship with Roush Racing, one minute he is happy as can be, the next he wants huge changes, and it looks like a combustible season for Roush. Which leads me to another question: How is JGR feeling right about now? In '11 they tried like hell to get Carl and Ford swooped in, so they wound up one year later with Matt Kenseth, a better driver, a better pressure driver, and MUCH more level headed driver which may be the most important factor. They desperately need that in an organization featuring Denny and KyBu. I look for him to have a very positive influence on that organization. Could Carl do the same? Doubtful. He couldn't even show any leadership qualities last season for an organization he has been with for the past 10 years. It look to me like the road to the championship may go through JGR considering the situations at Roush and HMS (Chad has just about worn that 48 team into the ground, Gordon can't bring it mentally week in and week out anymore plus the cha$e has exposed his Kryptonite which is his overall inability to perform at his highest level late in seasons, Kasey hasn't shown IT yet, and June has 2 wins in the past 6 seasons) and they look to be in the best position. BUT..... Kyle has shown absolutely zero ability to produce ANYTHING in pressure situations. I have never seen ANY athlete fold faster when something truly important lies in the balance than Kyle, not even Tony Romo. Do I trust him in a title fight? HELL to the NO! And Denny is very emotionally fragile, especially with all these past failures starting to build up. If he gets to the fight for the title, and something starts to go wrong, does he say to himself "here we go again" and handicap himself? Matt is a great leader, but he isn't Ghandi. So that leaves Matt himself. A "traditional" early 40s driver meaning he is still in his prime, but can he step right in to a new team and win it all that first year? The odds say no. The last time that happened was 1981 with Darrell at Junior Johnson. Ironically that was also a year of a complete model change with the cars. But that was also one of the low water marks for competition in NASCAR. His competition that year was Bobby Allison, also with a new team for him. Although Bobby spent most of his career in a perpetual state of "being with a new team for him". Otherwise Dale's defending championship team got dismantled, The King lost Dale Inman (who ironically went to the team that would be dismantled by Summer) which, combined with Father Time, pretty much meant the end of his championship contending days. Cale and Neil were running partial schedules, and that pretty much covers the contenders in 1981. Matt will need to make history (copyright, Marty Reid). Hell, Brad may repeat if, for no other reason, by default! 2328. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) If Jeff can overcome his two biggest weaknesses, which would be to finish where he runs on a weekly basis and be able to close a season on a high note (although you can't get much higher than winning the season finale), I think he could be the best HMS driver in 2013 with the best chance at winning the title. Something's going on in the #48 camp that just screams "burn out" from both Jimmie and Chad. This was supposed to be their "Dale Earnhardt in 1993" season, where they bounce back from having an off year and win the title the following year, and they failed to do what Dale did, which was beat the #2 Miller car for the title. For Jimmie to lose the championship in the biggest choke job since...well, when he won the title in 2010 from Denny Hamlin (arguably the biggest choke artist in NASCAR today), I just don't think he and Chad are going to co-exist as well as they did in 2012, and this might be their last season together barring another "milk and cookies" meeting. Also, I've never thought of Kasey Kahne as a serious title contender, even when he was doing very well in Evernham's equipment. If he had less Chase appearances in Evernham's equipment (one Chase berth between '04-'08) than Jeremy Mayfield (two Chase berths between '04-'06), why should I think he's going to win a title for the best team in the sport? Plus, he displayed one of the most underrated choke jobs of the last decade when he crashed at Richmond while he was in the Chase, and wound up missing the Chase by 28 points. Meanwhile, his teammate, having won just three races in 11 seasons with only one top 10 points finish at that time, won the race and kicked Kasey out of the Chase. Once again, drivers who get beat by their "scrub" teammates aren't capable of winning championships. That's why Kevin Harvick won't win a championship (he finished behind both Jeff Green and Robby Gordon in '02), that's why Dale Earnhardt, Jr. won't win a championship (he finished behind Martin Truex, Jr. in '07, plus he finished behind his one-time teammate Casey Mears twice in '07 and '09), and that's why Kasey Kahne won't win a championship. Plus, Kahne finished behind A.J. Allmendinger in points in '10, and almost did so the next season after he left for Red Bull. Given that ugly track record, I don't buy him beating Jimmie AND Jeff and being a serious title contender as a result. As for Junior, as good as he was last season, even leading the points standings at one point, I think his concussion late last season will lead to a regression in performance and results. I think there's a good chance he'll miss the Chase next season, not necessarily because he finishes outside the top 12 after race 26, but because he's sitting 11th or 12th in points, doesn't win a race, and gets bumped out via a wildcard. His best tracks last season were tracks that were at least 2.0 miles in length (Daytona, Talladega, Michigan, and Pocono), and given how his injury happened at Kansas (a very fast 1.5-mile track) and worsened at Talladega, I think he might be a little hesitant on the very fast superspeedways. 2329. cjs3872 posted: 01.25.2013 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, 1981 was actually a very good year for compettion in the sport, despite the change in cars. True, Darrell Waltrip and Bobby Allison separated themselves from everyone else, but the competition was very good that year. In fact, there were a record six races decied by last-lap passes, and a number of first-time winners, including Ron Bouchard (Race Hill Farms), Morgan Shepherd (Cliff Stewart), Jody Ridley (the only official win for Junie Donlavey), and there were no fewer than 11 races that year with 30 or more lead changes, including 48 at the Daytona 500, 35 at the Firecracker 400, 82 at the two Talladega races, 112 at the two races at Michigan, including 65 in the August race there, and there were more than 30 lead changes at each of the races at Rockingham, hardly known as a bastion for high numbers of lead changes. Even Riverside, a road course, got in on the act, as the three races there that year averaged 17 lead changes (15, 15, 19). 1981 was a very competitve year, quite possibly because of the new, boxier car. 2330. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This was supposed to be their "Dale Earnhardt in 1993" season, where they bounce back from having an off year and win the title the following year, and they failed to do what Dale did, which was beat the #2 Miller car for the title." Hey, I never thought of it like that! And JJ didn't even have to beat Rusty for the title. As y'all know, I love me some Brad, but he isn't Rusty Wallace (he might get there one day, but '93 Rusty would make '12 Brad look sick). But I agree something is up with them. I also agree Jeff is their best chance at winning the title. Although the cha$e has been a thorn in his side, it could wind up being his best friend. If he can dial back the clock for those final 10 races, look out field. We have seen flashes over the past two years of the Refuse To Lose era Jeff, Phoenix '11 (roughing up KyBu for the win), Atlanta '11 (if any other driver in the field that day were in Jeff's position then JJ wins that race going away), Richmond '12 (had some help from Kyle and his Agree To Lose attitude, but his storming back through the field was epic) and Homestead '12 (the world hates him and he used that as motivation and won the damn thing). 2331. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to believe Brad is the favorite going into the 2013 season, but the manufacturer change throws me off just a bit. I think JGR will be the overall best team in 2013 with all three cars making the Chase, but I think they lose the championship just because I think that Denny and Kyle will outrun Matt, and I don't buy them as drivers who can win it all with such high stakes. If Penske can successfully make the transition to Ford by the one-third mark of the season, I think Brad will be a serious title contender. Maybe even a repeat champion. I also think Jeff will be a contender as well, but I'm still not convinced he can finish a season strong with the Chase in place like Jimmie has. Matt has the best chance of winning the title among the three JGR drivers, but I don't think he'll be as dominant as his teammates or Brad to be a serious contender. I think Jimmie will have a "Jeff Gordon in 2008" type of hangover season (minus the injury and 0 wins), and that this will be a make-or-break season that determines whether Chad will remain his crew chief in the future. And I predict that the Chase will look very similar to 2012, with the only differences being Kyle and Carl in the Chase, while Harvick and Truex missing the Chase. This will be a very interesting season because of the drivers that should be the top contenders (Brad, Jimmie, Jeff, Matt, Kyle, Denny), they each have negatives that could prevent them from winning the title, either team-related or driver-related. I think that whichever driver overcomes those obstacles the quickest will secure the No. 1 spot heading into the Chase. My gut tells me either Kyle or Denny take the lead early and hold on up until the Chase, but whatever happens after that is anyone's guess. Will Kyle finally realize his full potential and win a Cup championship? Will Denny ever learn how to spell "champion" without using the letters "o-k-e"? Can Brad become the first driver to win back-to-back titles with two different manufacturers since Cale Yarborough in '77-'78? Will any of Jimmie's late season magic rub off on Jeff? Can Jeff regain a share of 3rd place on the Sprint Cup champions list? Is this the last time Jimmie and Chad are a team? Will Jimmie stick it to all of his doubters that he can't win another title? Does Matt have what it takes to win another title? Will a driver that I didn't mention make a charge, like Greg Biffle or Clint Bowyer? There are so many interesting storylines going into next season just at the top of the points standings, and sadly they all take a backseat to two drivers without a top 10 finish in Cup starting a relationship. It's sickening. 2332. Paul posted: 01.25.2013 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Homestead '12 (the world hates him and he used that as motivation and won the damn thing)." Hell, Jeff is the only driver that got this entire board pissed off at each other. For almost a whole week, the comments page turned into a Wargames match, a pro wrestling match famously used in the NWA and WCW as a 5 on 5 tag team match, with two rings, surrounded by a cage, with a roof on top. Purely epic. 2333. murb posted: 01.25.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Honestly, I have NO IDEA who will win the championship this year. There is no clear cut favorite whatsoever. In my preseason predictions, I picked Jeff Gordon basically just because I needed to pick someone. I do think Jeff will have some extra motivation after what happened last year (bad luck, feud with Bowyer, etc). But hell, he's been really streaky the past four years or so, so at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if he has another non-win season. I just don't know. The 48? COMPLETE BURNOUT. As I said in my predictions, if they aren't a top five team through the first half of the year, I see them being split up. Jr? I don't think he will be that good at all this year. Kahne? I agree with you guys, he hasn't shown that he can seriously battle for one yet. As for Brad, I'm gonna have to wait and see how the switch to Ford turns out. Carl should be back in contention with Fenning, but other than that, Roush will be a disaster with Stenhouse's dart without feathers rookie campaign and Biffle's streakiness (which will probably inevitably lead to yet another idiotic Roush crew swap or something). MWR will take a step back, but I think Clint will still make the Chase and compete at least a little bit. SHR? They have too many behind the scenes things that will get in the way (Team Danica, Harvick coming in 2014, Newman possibly leaving too). RCR? Harvick is a lame duck, so no. So yeah, JGR does look like the best overall team heading into the year. For Matt, it all depends on how he adapts to this new team. If he can, he has an excellent shot at the title. Call me crazy, but I think Denny has a good shot too. A lot of people have gotten on Denny about being a choker after 2010, but I would actually much rather take him in a championship fight than a lot of other drivers (Edwards, Harvick, both Buschs, and others). I myself blame Mike Ford a lot for that 2010 loss. Remember how he talked all that trash on the 48 after they won at Texas? I think that ignited a spark under the 48 that they carried all the way through to Homestead (plus, Ford's fuel blunder at Phoenix didn't help at all). Yeah, Denny "choked" at Homestead by spinning out, but I still blame Mike Ford mostly for that championship loss. Anyway, I honestly do think that if put in the same exact situation again with a much better crew chief like Darian Grubb, he could win a championship. The major key for the 11 team though will be whether or not they can keep their cars together in the Chase, as that was their downfall last year. And finally, as for Kyle Busch, I just think that he has no chance (sorry 18fan). Not only will he be running 25 NNS races (WAY too many), but he's never seriously contended for one before, even in years when JGR has shown that they were on par with Hendrick (2008, 2010). I don't see it happening unless he somehow miraculously has it all come together in his head But yeah, I seriously have no freakin' idea who will even contend for the title, much less who will win it. 2334. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.25.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To me, the best odds for the '13 Cup champ would go to Brad. Do I think he will? It is really hard to win back to back titles. But the manufacturer swap comes at the best possible time for something like that. Plus Penske has a pretty good history in first year's after a manufacturer switches (Rusty in '94, Newman in '03). As for Brad, he has the confidence of being a champion under his belt, gained crucial experience of racing under maximum stress and still performing, and I feel like he is only going to get better, is still two years away from entering a driver's traditional prime, and the combo of him and Paul Wolfe is only gonna get better. So I feel like he should have the best odds. With that said, if I had to bet my own money on "Will Brad win the 2013 Sprint Cup championship", I would bet "No" because there are so many good teams out there, it is really hard to win. Now if I had to bet "Will Brad win at least two more championships in the future" I would bet "Yes". Just not sure that 2013 is in the cards for them. 2335. 18fan posted: 01.26.2013 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) What Brad and the Penske team have to avoid is the inconsistency and mechanical failures that have plagued Penske in the past but didn't rear their ugly head after the first quarter of the season. I think Truex will have the biggest drop off from last year to this year because he had most of his good results when MWR was a top 3 team. Once Penske and JGR really got going and Jeff Gordon stopped having bad luck Truex and his team became average. In my opinion the 56 team should have won three races last year (Kansas 1, Darlington, and Atlanta) and didn't win any of them. At Darlington they had, in my opinion, clearly the best car and could run away from both the 48 and 11, but terrible pit strategy dropped them to 5th. I still don't really know what happened on the last run at Kansas when Martin lost to Denny, and Atlanta they lost on pit road after Jaime McMurray brought out a caution with a few laps to go with Truex having victory locked up. Kansas is the one that immediately comes to mind in terms of heartbreaking losses because he led 173 laps, but Atlanta was more heartbreaking in my mind because that race was won with 5 laps to go. Now onto my favorite driver. If Kyle can't win the championship, I would rather it be after having a year with a few wins but ultimately falls short of the championship because other teams are just better during the Chase (such as this year's Chase by Kasey Kahne, where he was really good, but the 2, 15, and 48 were just better). I want to see him win either the Daytona 500 or Coke 600 (preferably both), the spring Richmond race (so he can do something even the King didn't do and win that race 5 years in a row), and either Bristol (so he can have more wins than any other active driver at Bristol and have won on all three configurations he's raced on there) or Martinsville (Kyle doesn't get, in my mind, enough credit for how good he's been at Martinsville the last few years). I would also like to him win at Auto Club so I could see him win in person. I'm not willing to bet on the 48 team collapsing internally until their on-track performance suffers. I would right now put the 48 team as the favorites, over (in no particular order) Brad, Denny, Kyle, Matt, Jeff, Carl (I think he'll win, but not be a serious contender for the title), and Clint. I am sick of two things: The Danica-Stenhouse relationship, and hearing about Joey Logano being a surefire Chase contender. For the record, Penske has had two cars in the Chase once and this year will not be the 2nd time. 2336. BON GORDON posted: 01.26.2013 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright with the Budweiser Duels and The Sprint Unlimited coming up within the next month I have compiled yet another two lists of the greatest duel drivers and the greatest Sprint Unlimited drivers of all-time....ugh I wigh they would stop changing the names of all these races. TOP 20 GREATEST TWIN DUEL DRIVERS 1959-2012 #1. Dale Earnhardt Sr. 23 starts 12 wins (10 in a row!) 18 top 5s 19 top 8s 402 laps led 5.1 avg. finish #2. Jeff Gordon 20 starts 5 wins 11 top 5s 16 top 8s 247 laps led 5.7 avg. finish #3. Bobby Isaac 10 starts 4 wins 6 top 5s 7 top 8s 102 laps led 6.1 avg. finish #4. Cale Yarborough 26 starts 6 wins 14 top 5s 18 top 10s 174 laps led 6.8 avg. finish #5. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 13 starts 3 wins 10 top fives 11 top 10s 121 laps led 4.7 avg. finish #6. Tony Stewart #7. Bobby Allison #8. Fireball Roberts #9. Junior Johnson #10. Darrell Waltrip #11. David Pearson #12. Buddy Baker #13. Joe Weatherly #14. Ernie Irvan #15. Sterling Marlin #16. Bill Elliott #17. Kyle Busch #18. Fred Lorenzen #19. Neil Bonnett #20. Richard Petty TOP 12 GREATEST SPRINT UNLIMITED DRIVERS OF ALL-TIME 1979-2012 #1. Dale Earnhardt Sr. 12 starts 6 wins 10 top 3s 11 top 7s 98 laps led 2.8 avg. finish #2. Tony Stewart 13 starts 3 wins 7 top 3s 10 top 7s 114 laps led 4.8 avg. finish #3. Neil Bonnett 6 starts 2 wins 5 top 3s 5 top 7s 13 laps led 3.0 avg. finish #4. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 12 starts 2 wins 5 top 3s 8 top 7s 129 laps led 8.6 avg. finish #5. Kevin Harvick 8 starts 2 wins 3 top 3s 5 top 7s 47 laps led 8.5 avg. finish #6. Jeff Gordon #7. Darrell Waltrip #8. Dale Jarrett #9. Ken Schrader #10. Buddy Baker #11. Bobby Allison #12. Bill Elliott 2337. 18fan posted: 01.26.2013 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course laps led is hard to judge with the Sprint Unlimited because for most of its existence it was 20 or 25 laps. With the Duels, it's interesting that Bobby Isaac, regarded as mostly a short track specialist, won 4 duels. 2338. Paul posted: 01.26.2013 - 2:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In my opinion the 56 team should have won three races last year (Kansas 1, Darlington, and Atlanta) and didn't win any of them." I would throw Homestead in that mix as well, as Truex had probably the second best car in that race after Kyle Busch. Had Truex pit under that last caution along with the #48, #24, and teammate #15, among others, he might have won that race on pit strategy just because his car was so good throughout the night. But then again, he does suffer from Truex syndrome (just like his brother), so he probably would have thrown that race away anyways once he saw the silver and red DuPont car in his rear view mirror. "I still don't really know what happened on the last run at Kansas when Martin lost to Denny" They said that the car got extremely tight once the sun came out, as they had set the car up tight already to combat the cloudy weather. Once the sun came out, he dropped like a rock, and Denny made quick work of him and stole the win away. That being said, I think a better driver (and crew chief) would have made the proper adjustments either on the car or in the cockpit to prepare for the weather change, and hold off Denny over those final laps. Even though the weather played a large part in the car's handling changing, I think a better driver like Jeff, Jimmie, Kyle, Matt, or even teammate Clint would have wheeled that car to victory lane, especially given the large margin he held over Denny. "Carl (I think he'll win, but not be a serious contender for the title)" Carl's whole career works in stages. First he's a title contender, then he has a hangover season and goes winless and/or misses the Chase, and then he had a rebuilding year, before the cycle repeats itself. Seeing as how last season was a hangover year, I predict that Carl will have a rebuilding season in 2013 and will win some races, make the Chase, but won't contend for the title. We'll have to wait until 2014 before we see him contend for the title. "and hearing about Joey Logano being a surefire Chase contender." I have two words to explain my reasoning for why Joey won't be a Chase contender: A.J. Allmendinger. Dinger finished ahead of Joey in points twice in the three seasons that they both ran the full schedule in '09 and '11. By the way, Dinger was also driving for an inferior team that wasn't No. 1 in its manufacturer's stable, had gone through a series of DNQs in his first two seasons, and has FAR less stock car experience than Joey. Given how much he struggled in that #22 car (he was just starting to build some consistency when he got suspended), I don't expect Joey to do any better. Also, DSFF mentioned before how successful Penske has been when after changing manufacturers in '94 and '03, but you have to remember that Rusty's team actually dropped off the map in '03 when they switched to Dodge. Considering the HUGE drop in talent and performance between Rusty and Joey, along with him having a teammate who is the defending champ that needs to be focused on first and foremost, I don't see how Joey could possibly be a Chase contender. The only way I see him making the Chase is as a wildcard, but that would require him to win races, something he has a habit of not being able to do on Sundays. "For the record, Penske has had two cars in the Chase once and this year will not be the 2nd time." Actually they had two cars in the Chase twice, in '05 with Rusty and Ryan, and in '11 with Brad and Kurt. But in terms of making the Chase with two cars with the COT, you are correct. 2339. 18fan posted: 01.26.2013 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I had another thought because of what you said about Homestead. As a Kyle fan, I am tired of watching Kyle dominate races and lose because of poor fuel strategy. That is Dave Rogers' biggest shortcoming as a crew chief. Look at his first race as Kyle's crew chief. Kyle leads 232 laps at Texas, runs out of fuel with 3 laps to go. Dave also seems to be at his worst at making late race adjustments when they have a great car. Except for the last couple years on late race restarts, Kyle is actually pretty good at closing races when he's leading, so if he was on the same strategy as Gordon and Johnson at Homestead, I believe Kyle would've been able to win it. You don't win 20 races in a 5 year span without being able to close races. The only race Kyle lost in 2012 that I feel was 100% his fault was Phoenix. At Kentucky Brad had a better car before Kyle hit the wall and broke a shock. Some people might disagree with this, but I believe Kyle is, right now, the best driver at Watkins Glen. Remember that in 2011 he was running with less horsepower to make the race on only 2 stops and he had Ambrose's superior 3 stop strategy beat until a late race caution and then Kyle lost the race on the restart. And then this year, before the oil debacle, Kyle was blowing Ambrose out of the water. 2340. 18fan posted: 01.26.2013 - 2:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, all this talk about predictions for next year has me pumped and realizing that the first race is only 3 weeks away, the stupidly re-named Sprint Unlimited. I know with all the gun controversy they wanted to take out word "Shootout", but the new name is so stupid it's unbelievable. The name would make more sense if it was the name of the All-Star Race, because that would actually be going back to that race's roots of being The Winston. The Budweiser Duels will take a while for me to get used to because I'm so used to them being sponsored by Gatorade, but I usually just refer to them as "the duels" anyways. 2341. Paul posted: 01.26.2013 - 3:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I missed the race at Watkins Glen on TV, but I was regularly following it via my ESPN Scorecenter app. Every time I looked, Kyle was leading and seemed to have a big margin over the 2nd place car. Those last few laps were pretty nerve-racking to me as I saw Gordon's Chase hopes seemingly go down the drain, so you can imagine my surprise when I saw Marcos Ambrose's name at the top of the leaderboard. I know that without the oil on the track Kyle wins the race and Gordon (unless he somehow found a way to pass Denny at Atlanta) misses the Chase, but I'm still disgusted by NASCAR's decision to not throw the caution for oil being put on the race track, mostly because it sets a bad precedent. Sure, it made for an exciting finish and ultimately to an exciting Richmond race for the final Chase spot, but at the expense of putting the drivers on an unsafe track, I don't like that. Of course, everybody in the media started to run with that question of "Should NASCAR have thrown the caution for oil?", and the fans that vote on NASCAR.com and other websites voted "No". With that logic, why ever throw a caution for oil, debris, or rain on the race track, since there's a chance that an exciting finish could result from it? The fact of the matter is that NASCAR got lucky that their stupidity for not throwing the caution made for a great finish, and ultimately led to an even better finish at Richmond a few weeks later. I want to believe that NASCAR won't do something that stupid again, but judging by their horrible officiating at Phoenix when they decided not to throw the caution twice in the closing laps (ultimately leading to what was the biggest NASCAR story of the year until "Team Obliterator" decided to spread her cancer to Roush's team), I would expect them to hold off safety in the name of entertaining the "fans" once again. I love how they jump at the opportunity to throw a phantom debris caution, but hesitate to throw the caution for oil and wrecked race cars on the track. Awesome... "I know with all the gun controversy they wanted to take out word "Shootout"" Is that seriously why they changed the name? Wow, that reminds me of when the Big 12 Conference changed the name of the Oklahoma/Texas football rivalry. For years their rivalry's name was the "Red River Shootout", but following the 2005 season, they changed it to the "Red River Rivalry". Now that's still no excuse for the Bud Shootout's name to be changed to something as lame as the "Sprint Unlimited", especially since there is nothing unlimited to any race, let alone in a 70-lap race on a one-groove restrictor plate track, but it's not the first time that the word "shootout" has been taken out of a sports tradition. 2342. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.26.2013 - 6:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ESPN's greatest auto racers (globally) of all-time. You get to vote for Michael Schumacher, Dale Earnhardt, Jimmie Johnson, Mario Andretti, and A. J. Foyt. What the f***!?!?!? Where are Richard Petty, Sebastian Loeb, Tom Kristensen, Ayrton Senna? Where's the greatness? 2343. startandparkfan posted: 01.26.2013 - 6:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rolex 24 today! 2344. Benjamin Lowe posted: 01.26.2013 - 7:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) A message to CJS: Be careful when traveling around your home town because from what I have heard Baltimore is one of the most Dangerous Cities in America. 2345. Jarrett88fan posted: 01.27.2013 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ESPN Greatest of all-time - Its history!!! To come up with five drivers is too few, 8-10 would be best, but please Jimmie Johnson up there with Senna, Petty, Foyt, Earnhardt? That is ESPN for you. 2346. cjs3872 posted: 01.27.2013 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, the strange thing about that is that when ESPN revealed it's top 50 North American Drivers of the 20th Century in 1999 (through it's RPM2Night show), Richard Petty was up there with Earnhardt, Foyt, and Andretti. In fact, the ranking was Foyt first, Petty second, Andretti third, and Earnhardt fourth. And now they rank Earnhardt among the top five of all-time and omit Richard Petty? Other than Earnhardt's death in the 2001 Daytona 500, what else changed since 1999 when ESPN's list of he top 50 North American Drivers was first revealed to put Earnhardt ahead of Petty? In fact, no less of an authority than A.J. Foyt said in 1999 that in his mind, Petty was the greatest stock car driver of all-time. Trust me when I say that I trust Foyt's judgement far more than I trust any of ESPN's current wrters that came up with that list. After all, Foyt raced gainst Petty, Earnhardt, David Peasron, Cale Yarborough, Darrell Waltrip, etc. Given that, I'll trust his judgement over those that came up with that list for fans to choose from. And don't even get me started on Jimmie Johnson, because in my mind, he's not even the best of his generation, and now to put him up there with A.J., Mario, King Richard (omitted from ESPN's latest poll of greatest drivers), Michael Schumacher, and Ayrton Senna. n my mind, even though he hasn't won a championship in more than a decade, I still put Jeff Gordon ahead of Johnson, and a real good argument can be made for putting Tony Stewart ahead of Jimmie, as well, among current-day drivers. In fact, on a overall basis of drivers, I would put Tony ahead of Jimmie, but not among NASCAR drivers. 2347. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.27.2013 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stewart better than Johnson? No way. Not even close. JJ started later, has more wins and more championships. I know we are all worn into the ground by the 48 team, but we can't discredit what he has done. Do you realize that in 8 of the last 9 seasons Jimmie has been a contender for the championship, winning 5 of them? And that doesn't even count his late season charge to finish a distant runner up to Kenseth in '03, the last season before the playoffs. That is nothing short of historic. Tony has put up some nice numbers and beat JJ straight up in '05, but he is WAY too streaky to even be in Jimmie's class. As for Gordon, I think I have made my feelings about how those two rank against each other quite clear. Where you want to rank Jimmie historically is subjective. Ranking him against Stewart and Gordon is not, there are cold hard facts to show he is better. 2348. cjs3872 posted: 01.27.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I'm not saying Stewart's better than Johnson in NASCAR, because I know better. What I was saying was that, if you combine Stewart's USAC titles (including his historic Triple Crown in 1995) and his IndyCar exploits (which include a championship) with what he's done in NASCAR, I would rate him above Jimmie Johnson. As a NASCAR driver, of course Johnson rates higher, but overall, Stewart gets a slight nod for the very reason why I have Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt ahead of Richard Petty on my all-time driver list, and that's versatility. I rate Jeff Gordon ahead of both of them, but the margin between him and Johnson is narrowing. But there's no denying that Gordon, Johnson, and Stewart are this era's three best. That much is undeniable. And as another poster has mentioned, Gordon has won with five crew chiefs, and is a rare driver to win championships with more than one, while except for when Darian Grubb filled in for him because he was suspended for one of his endless cheating escapades, Chad Knaus has been the only crew chief with which Johnson has won. And Grubb has himself proven to be as good as anyone today as a crew chief. We don't even know how Jimmie Johnson will adjust to another full-time crew chief. I think he'd do just fine. And I can't, in good faith, put Johnson ahead of Gordon until he wins more races on road courses. Johnson has only one road course win, which was gift-wrapped to him in 2010 by Marcos Ambrose. If not for that, he'd still be looking for his first road course win, something even Kasey Kahne and Kevin Harvick have to their record (and they earned theirs). 2349. David posted: 01.27.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry I haven't posted for a few days, I've been out. Congratulations to Juan Pablo Montoya, Scott Pruett, Charlie Kimball, and Memo Rojas for their overall victory in the Rolex 24! "To come up with five drivers is too few, 8-10 would be best, but please, Jimmie Johnson up there with Senna, Petty, Foyt, Earnhardt? That is ESPN for you." Ready for the wildest of wild theories? ESPN put Johnson up there because they got to broadcast four of his five title runs. 2350. cjs3872 posted: 01.27.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well David, that was a great drive by Montoya to win his third 24 in four tries in the 01 car (he was second in the other), and congrats to Scott Pruett for tying Hurley Haywood's record of five overall wins, and ironically, Haywood was the Grand Marshall for the race this year. But the win seems emptier because a hack like Charlie Kimball is also among those on the winner's trophy. He tried everything he could to throw it away, but his other co-drivers overcame even his ineptness. Kimball may be the worst driver ever to be part of an overall win in that race. Let's not forget that it was Kimball that decided the 2011 Indianapolis 500 when he ran out of fuel in turn three of the final lap and kept his car on the racing groove, and J.R. Hildebrand, who had the race locked up, had to make the only decision he could to win the race, which was to try to evade Kimball's car, which was going 53 MPH slower when Hildebrand got there, and crashed because of it. While it's good to see Pruett win again and tie one of the sport's landmark records, but it's also disappointing to see a hack like Kimball also get his name on the trophy as an overall winner. 2351. David posted: 01.27.2013 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On Grand-Am's official site, Scott Dixon is also listed among the winners. Why? 2352. Paul posted: 01.27.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ready for the wildest of wild theories? ESPN put Johnson up there because they got to broadcast four of his five title runs." Not a wild theory. No other network displays the "what we are seeing now is the greatest thing that has ever happened" mindset quite like ESPN, especially when it comes to football, basketball, and NASCAR. I'm surprised they didn't include Kyle Busch on that list since he has more total NASCAR victories than Dale Earnhardt. I guess Marty "Ladies and gentlemen, you are witnessing history!" Reid wasn't a part of the voting panel. 2353. David posted: 01.27.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He tried everything he could to throw it away, but his other co-drivers overcame even his ineptness." I believe the word you used should have been "ineptitude". 2354. murb posted: 01.28.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "ESPN" *BSPN Seriously though, I agree. If we are solely talking about "best drivers", Jimmie does not deserve to be up with guys like Foyt, Andretti, Petty, and Earnhardt. It is true that Jimmie doesn't get the credit he deserves a lot of times for a being a great driver, but again, I just don't think he is a top five or top ten driver of all time. I would put Jimmie in the same class as someone like Rusty Wallace or Bill Elliott. If you would have given those guys chances to drive for THE top team in the sport (just like Jimmie has had), I think they would put up similar results as Jimmie has. 2355. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) That too, David. Kimball is probably the most inept driver I've seen in many years, if not in my entire time watching the sport, to ever have his name connected to a win in such a big race. I admire his courage, racing with diabetes, but his continuous ineptitude makes it very appalling that he has a ride with such a potent team (Chip Ganassi), when there are others that could actually run up front in such equipment. As for why Scott Dixon is lited among the overall winners, even though he never drove the winning car. That might be because he was eligible to drive it, even though he never did. From what I heard, if a driver started one team car, then he could drive another as long as the car he started fell out of the race, and Dixon started the race in the 02 car. Of course, Jamie McMurray didn't help that team at all, because of the mistakes he made, though notall of them were his doing. And isn't it odd that wth all the talk about fuel mileage races and talk about how different racing series are trying to combat fue mileage races, tht the 24 Hours of Daytona turned into just that, a fuel mileage race, with the two leaders each havi to stop inside the last four laps for fuel. If A.J. Allmndnger doesn't get pig-headed, as always, he wins the race, because he got the fuel mileage to go the distance, but he tried to be a hero and got run off the track for it. Of course, the fact that the #60 car was even in contenton to win is a source of angst, since the #60 got he wave-around at least nine times. As ridiculous as the wave-around is in NASCAR, it's far worse in Grand-Am for a number of reasons. First, there really is no risk in doing so on a road course, since you won't lose a lap if you pit under green. Then, and I don't get this, drivers get the wave-around AND get to stop to top off their tanks at the end of the caution period in which they get waved around? What idiocy is that? At least in NASCAR, you don't get to stop until after the green flag has come out if you take the wave-around. And also, drivers getting the wave-around only had to go to he back of thir group of cars, not the whole field. Us NASCAR fans complain about wave-arounds, but at least NASCAR does it properly, not giving wave-around cars unfair advantages, such as allowing them to stop during the same caution that they get waved around the field on, and in the case of the DP class, allowing them to pass most of the field so that they're at the back of their group of cars, and not the back of the field. Now I don't like the wave-around in NASCAR, but at last NASCAR's way of doing it makes much more sense than does the procedure that we saw during the 24 Hours of Daytona this past weekend. 2356. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.28.2013 - 5:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, you don't watch IndyCar like I do, so you have right to judge him like that. That was his first time EVER driving a sports car, and with diabetes it was probably too much for his body to handle. He is a talented young man. I cheered for him in Indy Lights only watch him get denied more than one win as a result of driver ahead of him chop-blocking. He more than proved himself in IndyCar this year and Ganassi rewarded him appropriately by giving him a chance to try something new. Is Michael Jordan a hack? He didn't win titles for years, and then he finally did. He sucked at baseball, but that does that make him a hack at basketball. And finally, I am sorry to see the great Hurley Haywood get tied for the most wins by Pruett. I have watched lots of these races, and Pruett has got to be the most character-less winner in Rolex 24 history. He is actually quite a rotten person and he and his team will do ANYTHING, even deliberately wreck every other car in the race, to win. Also, this win is diminished because Grand-Am took away engine power from Chevy and Ford. Ford had 300 rpm's cut, and Chevy got a smaller-holed restrictor plate. Sounds to me like NASCAR once again rigging the DP so that the only team in both Grand-Am and NASCAR gets protected. 2357. joey2448 posted: 01.28.2013 - 5:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In regards to that top-five list of greatest drivers from ESPN, I think something important that everyone needs to consider when arguing the greatness of a driver is how they would fare in other types of race vehicles... Would Jimmie Johnson win a championship in IndyCar? In Formula One? In touring car series? In rally racing? Same goes for every race car driver. Tony Stewart has proved successful in just about every type of car he's competed in. Stock cars, open-wheelers, sprint cars, list goes on... Same thing goes for A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, Nigel Mansell and others... Consistency, longevity, "big race" or "crown jewel" performances, success in multiple series, and just the pure ability to race, are all important variables. 2358. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.28.2013 - 6:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart is the only NASCAR driver EVER to have that versatility. In fact, any NASCAR driver who had absolute success in other major series (sports cars, IndyCars, etc) didn't start in NASCAR. Every NASCAR driver who has ever transplanted to another series got chased out, but many many people have come from other series to win in NASCAR. 2359. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 01.28.2013 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson is actually a pretty tidy road racer who has improved vastly since his career began. He has 4 straight top 7 finishes at sonoma and has the fifth highest driver rating at Watkins Glen since 05. He is a superion road racer to Kahne- Kahne has 2 top 5s at sonoma and has Never finished in the top 10 at the glen. Johnson is better than the vast majority of "road racers" now, I would place him about 6th behind Ambrose, Stewart, Montoya etc. People think Earnhardt wasn't great at road courses because he took so long to win one, but only Ricky Rudd has more top5s.Johnson, while not that good yet, is gradually improving his results. 2360. Scott B posted: 01.28.2013 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why would a driver who is already a success in NASCAR even care to race in any other series except as a fun-time hobby thing? The money and talent doesn't flow in that direction. If you've made it in Cup, there's no need to "prove yourself" anywhere else. You'd have to turn back the clock at least 40 years (to the start of RJ Reynolds' involvement) to even have a reasonable discussion about any other racing series having the same kind of relevance. 2361. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2013 - 12:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, there's no doubt the Ganassi cars had a big advantage on everyone else, and the BMW engines had everyone else hosed on the horsepower bit. That much was obvious. Yet, had A.J. Allmendnger not tried to be a hero, it wouldn't have mattered, because his Ford would have won because of superior fuel mileage, the way the race played out. Sure he got run off the road, but a more intelligent driver wouldn't have gotten himself in that position in the first place. He would have been able to stay out while the 01 and 10 cars pitted in the last four laps, and won the race. Remember that when he pitted to have that grass removed from the front of the car, they did not take on fuel, which meant that they could go the rest of the way. And about Kimball, I don't watch that much IndyCar racing, but I've watched enough to know that he's inept as a driver, a fact proven by the fact that he finished 19th in the championship standings. 19th in Ganassi's equipment? Granted, missing a race didn't help his cause, but it wouldn't have made that much difference (probably only the difference between finishing 14th-17th and 19th, and even 14th-17th is unacceptable considering the equipment). And in the races I've watched, he's the one Ganassi driver that's rarely talked about in a competitive sense. Even Graham Rahal had chances to win races last year, but the one good finish Kimball had (Toronto), he got only because he survived the crashes. Sarah Fisher's team had only one good finish last year, and it was in that same Toronto race, and for the same reason. And Josef Newgarden is considered to be a much superior driver, but in lesser equipment. 2362. Daniel posted: 01.28.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) J.J. Yeley will drive the second Tommy Baldwin car, #36, and has sponsorship from Golden Corral for the 4 plate races. 2363. Sean posted: 01.28.2013 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kimball seems to be a nice guy. I don't think he's especially talented and he is a ride-buyer (being sponsored by his medical diagnostic equipment and all), but even though he is with Ganassi, he doesn't annoy me as much as some ride-buyers do and I like the idea of a diabetic driver racing. He is probably the worst driver Ganassi has had in IndyCar but even that's arguable (Darren Manning, Jaques Lazier - yes, he had 1 IRL win in the Menard rocket before the CART teams took over again - I don't care). I do think he's better at what he does than some of the drivers Ganassi has had elsewhere (fellow ride-buyer Memo Rojas, David Stremme, Reed Sorenson, etc...) "Is Michael Jordan a hack? He didn't win titles for years, and then he finally did." Whoa there. He was a dominant player in college basketball and NBA from the get-go. Kimball was not dominant in Indy Lights and it is disappointing that he is there when drivers who won races or championships there (J.K. Vernay!) are not. I wouldn't say he sucks...just drives around mediocrely like Mears or Menard or something...and I do like having him out there. When you have 4 or 5 driver teams, there will inevitably be mediocre names on the winners' list... I mean most legendary races with ONE winner a year have mediocre winners... Mark Dismore and Casey Mears are two of the names that really stick out to me on that winners' list, not to mention fellow ride-buyers like Memo Rojas (who has won three solely by being in the dominant Ganassi car) or team owners like Rob Dyson who were carried by having all-star sports car teams. If Kimball gets ONE IndyCar win even if on some kind of fluke, I'd rate him over Dismore for sure (MUCH deeper field)... If he gets a NON-fluky win I'd rate him over Mears. There are always stronger and weaker drivers on a team. Montoya and Pruett carried Kimball and Rojas much like Allmendinger and Wilson carried the full-timers Negri and Pew last year. I don't see a reason to freak about it. Is Kimball THAT much worse than Dismore or Mears? REALLY? This isn't like the GT car co-driven by Michael Waltrip and Robert Kauffman winning (although they actually didn't do badly...) "He is actually quite a rotten person and he and his team will do ANYTHING, even deliberately wreck every other car in the race, to win." I thought it was more about Ganassi putting second cars out there to wreck the competition, like what Montoya did at the Brickyard Grand Prix last year. Which is certainly obnoxious... Ganassi as a team is pretty dirty, but I never really saw Pruett like that from his CART or NASCAR races (although I do watch Grand-Am very rarely, so I'll take your word for it...) "In regards to that top-five list of greatest drivers from ESPN, I think something important that everyone needs to consider when arguing the greatness of a driver is how they would fare in other types of race vehicles..." Totally. See my post 1096. "Would Jimmie Johnson win a championship in IndyCar? In Formula One? In touring car series? In rally racing? Same goes for every race car driver." He or Gordon could have just as easily won the 1997 IRL title having the unbeatable rockets that Tony Stewart had. In fact, since they're smoother drivers, they may have been more likely to take it easy and not blow as many engines... I think Johnson would suck everywhere else, and would suck against a full IndyCar field today, but I don't think Stewart would be all that hot either. "Tony Stewart has proved successful in just about every type of car he's competed in. Stock cars, open-wheelers, sprint cars, list goes on... Same thing goes for A.J. Foyt, Mario Andretti, Nigel Mansell and others..." I can't see ranking him with those three at all. USAC is minor league, the IRL sucked when he was there, and he hasn't won any marquee races (has actually choked at the Daytona 500, the Indy 500, AND the 24 Hours of Daytona...) His 1997 IRL title is not close to Foyt/Andretti/Mansell's F1, USAC, or CART titles. As much as I like open wheel (and like IndyCar more than NASCAR lately), Stewart's OW career is MIND-BOGGLINGLY overrated by NASCAR fans, and I'm ALMOST tempted to take Johnson over him as an overall driver... People want to compare Stewart to Andretti and Foyt when seriously JPM comes closer... "Consistency, longevity, "big race" or "crown jewel" performances, success in multiple series, and just the pure ability to race, are all important variables." Agree with all that, except for SOME crown jewels. In the instances where a single race is arguably more important than the season championship (Indy 500, 24 Hours of Le Mans, 24 Hours of Daytona) I agree. But if the season championship is THE prize (like in NASCAR, since there is little distinguishing the Daytona 500 from any other race except the purse, and talent is essentially irrelevant in winning there now) then a Daytona 500 win is not necessary. Rusty Wallace > Bill Elliott (even though I personally like Elliott much more) "As ridiculous as the wave-around is in NASCAR, it's far worse in Grand-Am for a number of reasons." NASCAR = Grand-Am. Ergo, Grand-Am, like NASCAR, is about the show. In order to ensure you have four cars on the lead lap at the end of the race (which usually doesn't happen in "pure" sports car racing) you need to give each car a lap back on every caution. Is that fair? I say no, but I did enjoy seeing the #60 back in there at the end even though they didn't deserve it. "Why would a driver who is already a success in NASCAR even care to race in any other series except as a fun-time hobby thing? The money and talent doesn't flow in that direction. If you've made it in Cup, there's no need to "prove yourself" anywhere else. You'd have to turn back the clock at least 40 years (to the start of RJ Reynolds' involvement) to even have a reasonable discussion about any other racing series having the same kind of relevance." Formula One has much more relevance than NASCAR in every other country except the US. Also, equating popularity with relevance is wrong in any field. NASCAR stars (or IndyCar stars, etc...) don't NEED to crossover to prove themselves as great drivers, but when somebody primarily associated with one discipline of motorsport accomplishes something big in another, it does elevate their profile to me. Montoya sucks in NASCAR, but he's definitely a legend for what he's done everywhere else... NASCAR does not have the best 43 drivers in the world. They have some of them, but it's between maybe 5 and 7. I'd hardly say Formula One has the best 20 drivers either. A great drivers list would be considerably more diverse... When comparing three drivers who look otherwise equal (let's say Bobby Rahal vs. Michael Andretti vs. Al Unser, Jr.) Rahal's 24 Hours of Daytona and Sebring wins and Unser's 24 Hours of Daytona wins help make the case for them. Rahal not being a legacy driver and winning the most CART titles (especially having arguably the worst equipment on average) makes it kind of a non-contest to me, but I see nothing wrong with using extracurricular accomplishments to judge a career. I don't think NASCAR vs. CART vs. F1 vs. sports cars is the same as football vs. baseball vs. basketball vs. soccer. It's all the same sport, and there's a reason most of the NASCAR drivers have aligned themselves with top Grand-Am teams in the 24 Hours of Daytona... Now the flip side is somebody like Robby Gordon whose entire CAREER seems to be extracurricular. Yeah, he's won in more disciplines in motorsports than most, but he hardly seems to take anything all too seriously. I'd rate him lower than some people who would ordinarily agree with me would, I think... And wow, the start of RJ Reynolds' involvement? From my understanding, USAC/CART were held in higher esteem by the general sports media (SportsCenter coverage, etc...) than NASCAR was for most of the '70s and '80s. Andretti, Foyt, Rahal, Unser were bigger names to the public than Earnhardt, Wallace, Waltrip, Elliott, etc... I could be wrong since this is before my time and I probably haven't watched enough '80s footage. I DO know that NASCAR had mostly surpassed CART in ratings before the split, but it still didn't have national respect outside of its niche (as far as I know) until the '94 Brickyard 400, which is what FINALLY put NASCAR on a level playing field with CART in media coverage. And then the split led to NASCAR's dominance. I would hardly say NASCAR was dominant from the start of the Winston era, even though it was probably better in the late '80s/early '90s and the personalities were certainly more likable than the drivers/owners in CART at the time. 2364. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2013 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, while I think Kimball is inept as a driver, he also has to be one of the most courageous drivers in all of racing today, because he's racing with diabetes. I've never doubted his courage, just his ability. After all, when you're sub-15th in points in a series where there isn't very many competitive cars, and you're driving one of the few competitive cars out there, that pretty much says it all. And yes, there usually there is a difference between drivers on a team running the 24 Hours of Daytona, but it usually isn't that graphic to where one driver is so much worse than the rest of them. After Kimball lost control on the back half of the chicane (and who does that?), he pitted, and was 55 seconds behind the leader. During the time he was back out there, he lost another 40-45 seconds to he leader, and didn't gain on anyone else, despite having the fastest car, and was nearly lapped bere getting replaced by Memo Rojas, who was on pace with the leader most of his stint at that time. And in the 1970s and most of the 80s, IndyCar racing was thought of higher than stock car racing, but then the legends that built the sport started to get old and retire, or were put out to pasture by the influx of foreign drivers. For instance, Bobby Unser retired in 1982, Gordon Johncock in 1985, and many of their contemporaries were done by 1990, except Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt, and Foyt was no longer competitve. And drivers like Tom Sneva and Pancho Carter were put out to pasture due to sponsorship issues, and the increase in the number of road courses and the decrease in ovals beginning in the late 80s. The big turning point may have been the 1985 Soutern 500 at Darlington. ESPN covered both the IndyCar and NASCAR race that weekend, and their "B" team of Larry Nuber and Jack Arute handled the play-by-play for the Souhern 500. Yet, two IndyCar drivers, A.J. Foyt and Pancho Carter both bypassed the IndyCar race to run in the Southern 500, with Carter driving for Hoss Ellington in his Cup debut. And in 1986, Carter ran nine Cup races for Elmo Langley and Roger Hamby, so he knew the writing was on the wall for is type of driver in IndyCar racing. But I predicted IndyCar racing's demise long before it happened, because of the dearth of drivers coming up. The legends were all retiring from 1988-'94, and nobody was coming up at that time. Bobby Rahal, Danny Sullivan, Michael Andretti, and Al Unser, Jr. were all stars at that time, and two of those four never won after 1992-'93, and nobody else was coming up to pick up the slack of Mario Andretti, A.J. Foyt, Emerson Fittipaldi, who was also nearing retirement age. Other than Paul Tracy, who was wild, there wasn't anyone coming up at that time. Jacques Villeneuve won an Indianapolis 500 and a championship in 1995, but he didn't even want to be in IndyCar racing. Meanwhile in NASCAR, you had guys like Darrell Waltrip, Dale Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, Mark Martin, Terry Labonte, Ricky Rudd already established, and guys seemingly coming up every year from 1993-'97 that could contend, so the talent pool in NASCAR never really dried up until recently, though it's filling up again, while the talent pool in IndyCar racing dried up fast in the late 80s and early 90s, so the downfall of IndyCar racing actually began long before the 1996 split. And by the way, I mentioned that there's no excuse for a guy like Charlie Kimball to do as poorly as he has (19th in points last year, 14th-17th if not for the one race he missed), given the equipment and organization he has behind him. I can say the same thing for Joey Logano, if he doesn't pick it up ths year, compared to his recent seasons at Joe Gibbs Racing. Logano's never finished higher than 16th in points (in 2010), I'll begin to say the same thing about him, now that Penske will be the second championship-level organization he's driven for. If he can't step it up better than 17th, his finish last year, and at least threaten for a spot in the Chase, I'll say that he needs to do some soul searching. And I can almost guarantee this. Roger Penske's not going to be as patient with Logano as Joe Gibbs was. If he doesn't perform in two yars, he'll be out of there. Granted there are more competitve cars in NASCAR than there are in IndyCar racing, but Logano needs to at least seriously threaten for a Chase spot, or his ride with Penske may be the last premium ride he gets. 2365. Scott B posted: 01.28.2013 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, You may be correct that the influx of RJR money didn't make NASCAR an overnight sensation, but it was the beginning of the end for other sanctioning bodies. The open wheel drivers like the Unsers and Andrettis that were still household names in the late 70's and beyond were mostly carryovers from the ealier era who had already built a fan base. Somewhere along the line, little kids stopped dreaming about growing up to win the Indy 500 and started dreaming about being a NASCAR champion. I guess you could pick a date somewhere between Reynolds entry as title sponsor and the beginning of ESPN's involvment on the TV side (1981?) as the tipping point. I probably have a bias toward an earlier date because I was a fan long before cable TV came along, in spite of being raised outside the South. As an old-school NASCAR fan, I don't put much special importance on the Brickyard 400. Maybe newer fans do buy in that it has some significance beyond being a big payday for the winner, but to me... meh, hype. 2366. Sean posted: 01.28.2013 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Uh, looking at the 1988-1994 rookies in CART, I agree that there were no giants besides Tracy, who you mentioned, Villeneuve (who did seem to want to be there until he won Indy), and Mansell (who presumably never intended to stay long). There were still nine other multiple race winners (admittedly counting both sides here) who emerged in that period, only two of them foreign: Eddie Cheever, Adrian Fernandez, Robby Gordon, Mauricio Gugelmin, Bryan Herta, Buddy Lazier, Scott Pruett, Scott Sharp, and Jimmy Vasser. However, in the same period, Cup only had two GIANTS emerge (Ernie Irvan and Jeff Gordon) and eight other multiple race winners (John Andretti, Jeff Burton, Ward Burton, Bobby Hamilton, Bobby Labonte, Jeremy Mayfield, Joe Nemechek, and Jimmy Spencer; okay, some would call J. Burton and B. Labonte giants but I wouldn't). Considering you can make an obvious parallel between Ernie Irvan and Paul Tracy, that means Gordon is really the sole difference IMO. That's not enough for me to date NASCAR's dominance as early as 1985. I don't consider Pancho Carter an IndyCar giant and A.J. Foyt was no longer relevant (and had been participating in marquee NASCAR races for many, many years anyway...) U.S. drivers still dominated IndyCar before the split. There were only three foreign Indy 500 winners in the CART era (Fittipaldi, Luyendyk, and Villeneuve) and the top eight CART finishers in '95 were all American or Canadian, so that's why it's a little hard to buy Tony George's reasons for starting the IRL, especially when it ended up being dominated by bad CART drivers, many of whom were foreign. It is true that among the giants from the '95-'98 rookie classes (and I'm being very generous putting Stewart here), all but one of them (Kenny Brack, Helio Castroneves, Gil de Ferran, Dario Franchitti, Tony Kanaan, Greg Moore, Tony Stewart, Alex Zanardi) were foreign, but that's still a lot more talent than emerged in NASCAR during the same period, and most of those guys were very personable. Yes, Brack, de Ferran, Moore, Stewart, and Zanardi all had shortened careers for various reasons (de Ferran retired WAY too early) and that's one of the problems I guess, but I think all those guys might be far bigger household names without the split, especially Zanardi (and yes, I know Stewart would never have been in open wheel and would have been a NASCAR ladder guy the whole time without the IRL). I don't think Americans are THAT averse to foreign drivers. 2367. Sean posted: 01.28.2013 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As an old-school NASCAR fan, I don't put much special importance on the Brickyard 400." Oh, I agree Indy sucks as a NASCAR track. I just think that it wasn't until then that NASCAR got the national respect it deserved. And regarding the cigarette sponsorships, cigarette money was huge EVERYWHERE in racing. The KOOL/Marlboro/Player's sponsorships in CART, the IMSA Camel GT, Winston's sponsorship of the NHRA, Marlboro sponsoring the McLaren team, then later the Ferrari team, etc..., etc... The banning of cigarette sponsorships ultimately hurt racing everywhere. Formula One was probably the least affected. 2368. Sean posted: 01.28.2013 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, Gugelmin wasn't a multiple race winner. Well, the rest of my points stand. In fact, that helps out my main point. Only ONE of the multiple race-winners from the 1988-94 CART rookie classes was foreign: Adrian Fernandez... 2369. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2013 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, it wouldn't have been that noteworthy for both Foyt and Pancho Carter to have competed in the 1985 Southern 500 at Darlington, except for the fact that, as I mentioned, there was an IndyCar race that weekend. And although Foyt ran in over 100 NASCAR races (128 to be exact), and ran in most of the big ones (the Coca-Cola 600 being the only exception fo obvious reasons), he rarely ever ran in a NASCAR race that was held the same weekend as an IndyCar race. That's what made Foyt's and Carter's appearances in the 1985 Southern 500 so noteworthy. And Foyt was still a competitve driver in 1985. That year, he won the 24 Hours of Daytona for the second time, was a real factor in the 1985 Daytona, running third when he dropped out, and finished in the top five at the Talladega 500, and finished a good sixth in the 1984 Indianapolis 500. His IndyCar team just fell hopelessly behind, mainly because of Foyt's malaise which resulted from his father's death in 1983. And also, the timeline I was referring to (1993-'96) began when Jeff Gordon and Bobby Labonte made their Cup debuts, so you can throw Ernie Irvan off your list, because he had already established himself by that time as the 1991 Daytona 500 champion. But aside from Gordon and the younger Labonte, Jeff and Ward Burton, Joe Nemechek, Jeremy Mayfield, Ricky Craven, and Johnny Benson, Jr. were all among those that made headlines in NASCAR's top series that debuted in that four-year period. And as for the Brickyard 400 not being that great a race to watch. That might be true, but the first three or four runnings of that race were actually very competitve. What changed? One thing is the speeds. For the first running of that race, the pole speed was just over 172 MPH. By 2000, it had passed 180 and by 2004, it was actually threatening the speed that Johnny Rutherford sat on the pole at Indy with in 1976, as Casey Mears went over 186 MPH. What happened at Indy beginning in 1998 was actually a precursor to what's now happening circuit-wide on all the big tracks, except for Daytona and Talladega. The cars are simply going too fast to put on a good, competitive race, and are only going to get faster this year because of the cars being lighter, which may up the speed 2-3 MPH circuit-wide this coming year, and they ay not slow down that much dringa run, except for tracks that have worn-out surfaces, such as Atlanta, or on the short tracks. But back to the racing at Indianapolis. The biggest problem is that drafting is not that important. Back in the 1970s, when NASCAR annually ran races at the Ontario Motor Speedway, which was a wider, faster duplicate of Indianapolis, those races were annually among the best on the entire circuit because of how important drafting was. And we saw that in the first three or four runnings of the Brickyard 400, because you would often see 3, 4, 5 cars running close together because of the effect of the draft. In fact, the first six cars, all but one driven by racing giants, either at that time or in the future, were separated by about 1.5 seconds at the finish. But now there is virtually no drafting going on, mainly because the cars can't run close together, and a lot of that has to do with the increased speed and aerodynamics, and if they can't run close together, there's not going to be any drafting, wich has always been the key element to having competitve races on big tracks. It was that way in the 60s, and it's that way now. 2370. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 01.28.2013 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Question, what do you think is the hardest record to break in the modern-era. Personally I think it is Yarborough's 77 season average finish mark of 4.5. To put this into perspective in the 35 years since no one has got within one point of this. The best being Gordon's 98 mark of 5.7. Also, since I mention it, who has produced the greatest single season in nascar history. 2371. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.28.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) KFI, the best seasons are definitely Richard Petty in 67, when he won 27 out of 48 races (he couldn't run 49 because the 49th was the other Daytona qualifier), 71, when he won 21 times, and David Pearson in 73, when he had 11 wins and 14 podiums in the 14 races he finished. 2372. 18fan posted: 01.28.2013 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I calculated the points per race (PPR) for all seasons starting in 1975 in which a driver either won three races, finished in the top 10 in points, made the chase, or was the defending champion. Yarborough's 1977 was clearly the highest with 166.67 PPR, with Dale Earnhardt's 1987 2nd at 161.93 PPR and Jeff Gordon's 1998 3rd at 161.45 PPR. 2373. cjs3872 posted: 01.28.2013 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Kubica Fan Ireland asked about the greatest season of the modern-era, so Richard Petty's 1967 season doesn't qualify. As for what I think the greatest season a driver has put up since 1972 is, I'll list 12. -Richard Petty's 1975 season (his last great season) -Cale Yarborough's 1977 season (not only did he win 10 races, he finished every race) -Either of Darrell Waltrip's first two championship seasons (1981-'82) -Bill Elliott's 1985 season (though we now know there was chicanery there) -Dale Earnhardt's 1987 and 1990 seasons -Any of Jeff Gordon's seasons from 1995-'98 -Jimmie Johnson's 2006 season (I know he won more races in some of his other championship years, as well as 2004, but I think that was his best season) 2374. 18fan posted: 01.28.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Outside of the wins, Darrell Waltrip's 1981 season was much stronger than his 1982. Waltrip scored almost 8 points per race more in 1981 than he did in '82 and had more top 5s in 1981 than he did in '82. I would say that while DW's 1982 season was impressive, his 1981 was, in my mind, much better. 2375. David posted: 01.28.2013 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I calculated the points per race (PPR) for all seasons starting in 1975 in which a driver either won three races, finished in the top 10 in points, made the chase, or was the defending champion. Yarborough's 1977 was clearly the highest with 166.67 PPR, with Dale Earnhardt's 1987 2nd at 161.93 PPR and Jeff Gordon's 1998 3rd at 161.45 PPR." Too bad you went to all that trouble, because I already had that data. I can't seem to find it, though. I do remember that the weakest was Tony Stewart's 2002 (133.33 APPR). That should come as no surprise. 2376. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2013 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well 18fan, 1981 featured tougher competition than 1982 did, which is why his 1981 season seemed more impressive. Remember that Waltrip won 12 times, and he'll tell you it should have been at last 13, the 13th one being the 1981 Talladega 500, when he, along with everyone else, was shocked by what Ron Bouchard did on the final stetch to steal that win away from Waltrip. Remember that Terry Labonte led the points for a good portion of the 1982 season, and never won a race that year. But both of those seasons would rank among my 12 best of the modern era. Lack of competition is a main reason that keeps David Pearson's 1973 season off my list. Actually, I think his 1976 season (he won 10 times, including the first two races of the season that year) may have been better than his 1973 season, because he won all the big ones in 1976, and the competition was much tougher in '76 than it was in '73. All he had to do in 1973 was finish to end up in the top two or three, while it was tougher in 1976. And in at least two races in 1973, all Pearson had to do to win was finish. 2377. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.29.2013 - 8:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There were some pretty stout competitors in 1973, even if they didn't all have wins/large win counts: BP, Cale, Richard, Bobby Allison, Buddy, Bobby Isaac was still running strong, James Hylton was a weekly contender. Heck, even Cecil Gordon was a title threat with his number of top-5s. 2378. David posted: 01.29.2013 - 9:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I clearly did not read your initial post, 18fan. I just had the APPR for each champion. 2379. Daniel posted: 01.29.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -J.J. Yeley has obtained sponsorship from United Mining Equipment for 3 races. -Brian Keselowski will attempt the Daytona 500 for Jimmy Means. -Steve Wallace will run a limited Nationwide schedule for Rusty Wallace Racing the in the #66 Mustang with sponsorship from Richard Tocado Companies. -Ron Hornaday Jr. has obtained sponsorship Smokey Mountain Herbal Snuff for 12 races. 2380. Paul posted: 01.29.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's good to know that NASCAR won't have to throw as many phantom cautions in the Nationwide Series next season. Brian Scott did his best last season, and John Wes Townley and all those other part-time "buy-a-ride" drivers weren't at the track every week. Steve Wallace is sure to lighten the load for those guys and provide a us with some legit caution periods next season. Also, in NFL news, JaMarcus Russell has been in talks with the New York Jets as of late about a possible comeback with that team. He'd be a perfect fit for the Jets because both sides have poor work ethic and are losers in their profession. So along with Steve Wallace and RWR returning, today has been a great day for loser sports stars and teams. 2381. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2013 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, you just made my point about the lack of competition by saying that both James Hylton and Cecil Gordon had shots at the title in 1973, which they did. Also, you mention Bobby Allison. Remember that he didn't even run in NASCAR events for a month because he was trying to make the Indianapolis 500 that year, which he did, but probably wishes he didn't. DiGard Racing wasjust starting up in 1973 with Donnie Allison (Donnie didn't even qualify for the Daytona 500), Bobby Isaac was a part-time driver, as was Buddy Baker. In fact, half the races that year were won by drivers that were part-timers, and that number goes up to 16 of 28 races if you count the two that Bobby Allison won. Aside from Pearson's 11 wins, other part-timers that won in 1973 were Baker, Dick Brooks, and Mark Donohue in the season opener at Riverside, the first win for Roger Penske. Brooks' win in the Talladega 500 was in a Crawford Brothers Racing Plymouth, that make's last victory. The level of competition was at it's lowest from the second half of 1971 through 1973. Most would include 1974 in that, but there were some incredibly competitve races in 1974, even though only five drivers won. I'm sorry, but if all you have to do to win or finish in the top three is just to finish at all, that doesn't put the level of competition in a very good light. 2382. jabber1990 posted: 01.29.2013 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought about this if there was a race at Atlanta or Homestead (or some "easy" track) and put all 6 generations of cars (and the sub-genres) against each other, who would win? 2383. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2013 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That depends on the phase the car was in, jabber1990. Remember that the car inaugurated in 1981 went through at least five or six phases itself, but by the time it was retired in 2007, that car was probably the fastest car in NASCAR history. Certainly it would not be the relative box that was raced for the past five yars, nor the high-centered bricks that preceeded the 1981-2007 car. However, nothing could beat the quality of racing that those "bricks" gave the fans of the sport, as well as the 1981 car in it's first few years before the 1983 T-Bird changed everything. 2384. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.29.2013 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Buddy Baker was full-time in 1973. Pit all six generations of car against each other and the most recent wins on reliability first, speed second. It has both those hands down. 2385. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah NicoRosbergFan, I just saw that, and that shocked the "you know what" out of me, because I was under the impression that the team Buddy drove for in 1973 no longer wanted any part of running the full schedule, especially Harry Hyde, who hated the idea of racing conservatively to protect the championship. That would also have been Buddy's first season chasing the championship, though he did miss one race, and Buddy never liked the idea of running all the races since he actually made more money testing than he did racing, a fact he's admitted many times. The irony about that was that Buddy and his team sat out much of the early part of the 1974 season, including the 1974 Daytona 500, in protest of NASCAR's new engine rules for that season, which gave the big block engines a restrictor plate, while allowing the teams running the small block engines to run unrestricted. The Dodge teams, like Baker's K&K Insyurance team and Petty Enterprises ran the big engines, while the GM and Ford teams ran the smaller engines. The teams with the smaller engines were faster, but the older, bigger 426 CI engines proved more reliable early in the season. And after running sparingly in the #71 Dodge for the first half of the 1974 season, Baker moved to Bud Moore's team in mid-season, and had one of the biggest years of his career in 1975. In fact, Baker was the second-winningest driver in 1975, winning four times (though most of the stars did not run the full season in '75, including Baker, David Pearson, Bobby Allison, who drove in the three 500-mile IndyCar races for Roger Penske in '75, and even Cale Yarborough sat out three races due to lack of sponsorship, and each of them won three times), and in 1976, set a 500-mile world record at Talladega, becoming the first to complete a full 500-mile race in under three hours. Actually, Baker was typical of a number of the star drivers of that period, as he ran the full schedule only four times (1973, '76-'77, '85). 2386. cjs3872 posted: 01.29.2013 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And also NicoRosbergFan, the car from 1981-2007, especially in the last years of that car, wins on speed, hands down. There were track records set with that car that still haven't been matched, although I think that changes this year. In fact, don't be surprsed to see a 190 MPH lap at Indy this year with the car that's coming out, if no changes are made, and that's faster than the pole was in 1976, and darn close to what it was there in 1974, '79, and '80 with modern-day IndyCars. I do agree with you, however, that the "Gen 5" car was the toughest and most reliable of the previous cars, but it never raced well, and for it's first few years, was also ugly. 2387. JG24FanForever posted: 01.30.2013 - 5:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson beating Gordon in the points streak: 10 (2003-2012) Number of wins for Johnson without Chad Knaus : 2 Number of wins for Gordon without Ray Evenham: 40 Number of Top 15 points for Joey Logano: 0 Number of Top 15 points finishes for Big E.,JG and Jimmie J: 53 Number of Top 15 points finishes for Derrike Cope: 1 Jeff Gordon Top 11 points finishes streak: 19 (1994-2012) Number of Seasons where Jimmie J was a title contender: 8 of 11 Number of Chase wins for Johnson: 22 Number of Chase wins for Gordon: 4 Top 5 reasons to watch the upcoming season(for me) 5. because iv'e done this every year since 1993 4. my life would mean less if I didn't 3. I love to see Johnson falter 2. Darlington,Daytona,Martinsville,Sonoma,Watkins Glen,Pocono,Atlanta,Bristol 1. Jeff Gordon has a shot at the Championship for the first time since 2007. 2388. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.30.2013 - 7:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dope Cope finished in the top 15 in points once, in 1995. 2389. Daniel posted: 01.30.2013 - 11:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) -J.J. Yeley has obtained sponsorship for 6 races from Accell Construction -Timmy Hill will compete for Rookie of the Year in Cup running an 18-20 race schedule for Fas Lane Racing -Dakoda Armstrong will run a full truck schedule for Turn One Racing and a part-time Nationwide schedule 2390. JRacingFast posted: 01.30.2013 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From Jayski NASCAR has released the start times and television networks for its 2013 races in its three national series. The Sprint Cup Series times have primarily remained the same, with only a slight change to Darlington Raceway's start time to 6:45 p.m. Although most night races are set for 7:30 p.m. ET, Darlington was moved to 7 p.m. last year because of the time it takes to complete 500 miles at the track. Two Nationwide Series races will be on ESPNNEWS. The Richmond race in April conflicts with ESPN's coverage of the NFL draft and the NBA playoffs and the ABC Friday night prime-time lineup. The Kentucky race in September, which was initially an afternoon race but has been moved to night, conflicts with previously scheduled college football on ABC and other ESPN networks Am i the only one who is pissed about the nationwide races having to be moved to ESPNNEWS because i know i dont get it and i bet a lot of you others dont either. 2391. Scott B posted: 01.30.2013 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Question, what do you think is the hardest record to break in the modern-era. Personally I think it is Yarborough's 77 season average finish mark of 4.5." That certainly would be a tough one to match. A few others that seem safe for a while: Quikest Win in Cup (Modern Era): 2nd start by Trevor Bayne & Jamie McMurray. Unless a driver makes his Cup debut at a plate track, which is rare, this should stand for a very long time. Consecutive Starts: Ricky Rudd's 788 is safe for a few seasons. Closest active drivers are Jeff Gordon at 689 and Bobby Labonte at 688. If neither of those two reach that mark before they retire, we may have a long wait to see it fall (though I do think it's possible). Races without a DNF streak: All-time 84 by Herman Beam, modern 83 by Clint Bowyer. Current longest streak is 36 by Greg Biffle. As durable as the recent cars are, and as good as the crews are at getting them back on track, you would think this record would be more vulnerable, but it would take another full season plus without a DNF to challenge it. JJ's 5 consecutive championships... don't expect anyone else to pull this off anytime soon. Terry Labonte's 12 seasons between championships (1984 and 1996). Matt Kenseth (2003 champ) is the only one who really has a shot at this if he wins one with Gibbs down the road (2015 or later). If he did it, both would have accomplished the feat with two different owners. Also, it's safe to say that we won't see an owner win back to back championships with different drivers this season, maybe not for a while. Hendrick did it with Jeff Gordon & Terry Labonte, Roush with Kenseth and Kurt Busch. Logano would have to do it for Penske this year, don't bet the rent on that happening. 2392. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2013 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dale Earnhardt's 1987 2nd at 161.93 PPR" I'm glad to see this season ranked so high, I don't think it gets the credit it deserves. He won 11 of the first 22 races. Has anyone ever held that high of a winning % that late in a season outside of Petty's 1967? He won the first 6 short track events of the season, and finished 2nd in the final two. He led 3357 laps that season! In just 29 races! He led all but two events, led more than 100 laps in 15 (over half!) of the races, led more than 200 laps in 6 of those, more than 300 laps in 3 of those, and 415 in the Bristol Night Race. He led over half the laps in 9 races. He swept 3 different tracks (Darlington, Bristol, and the old Richmond Fairgrounds). After the his win Fall Richmond race (his 11th win in 22 races as mentioned earlier) he had a 608 point lead over Bill Elliott. Even though Dale didn't win any of the last 7 races including two blown motors (testing?) and Bill won 3 of the final 4 events, he only shaved a little over 100 points off Dale's lead. This was the one season where Dale had the horsepower to hang on the bigger tracks (except for Daytona and Dega where, quite frankly, the Fords were light years ahead of him) and the result was pure domination. From winning races (his winning % is very close to Jeff's '98 winning %), to leading races (unparalleled since Cale's heyday), to dominating the points standings (took the lead in the second race, never looked back, was 608 up by mid September, won by 489, only had to start the 3rd to last race to lock it up) this was a pure ass whipping. And the competition was no joke in 1987. Although it may have been the low water mark for NASCAR's most stacked era ('85-'95), this wasn't exactly 1977 by any means. Bill was on the comeback trail after a bitterly disappointing 1986 hangover season. He won 8 poles and 6 races but couldn't even think about keeping up with Dale's week in and week out brilliance. Him and rookie Davey Allison (2 wins in just 22 races) had their Thunderbirds dominating on the big tracks. Ricky Rudd had a rare 2 win season, Rusty showed he was ready to break out (as he did the next season) and even the old guard of Bobby Allison and Richard Petty looked pretty good that season (with Bobby pulling out a great comeback win in the Firecracker 400). Darrell and Terry struggled in their new rides, but each were good at being there in the end (Darrell won the miles completed award). 2393. David posted: 01.30.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention, DSFF, that his PEER in that season was probably around 8.000 (only a very slight exaggeration). "even the old guard of Bobby Allison and Richard Petty looked pretty good that season" 1987 was the year when Richard Petty showed flashes of his old self. Unfortunately, his 1988 Daytona 500 wreck probably robbed us of the chance to see what he had left in the tank. 2394. Scott B posted: 01.30.2013 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another record that should hold up for a while: 3 wins by a rookie (Stewart '99 & Johnson '02). Even though there are some prospects coming up that I like, everything would have to align just right to equal or beat that. 2395. Daniel posted: 01.30.2013 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -Kevin Swindell will run a 15-race schedule in the Nationwide series for Biagi-DenBeste Racing. 2396. cjs3872 posted: 01.30.2013 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention DSFF, that the Wood Brothers won one of the crown jewels with Kyle Petty in 1987, so quite a few of the old names showed flashes of their old glory. The irony of the Coca-Cola 600 in 1987 was this. In that race, Kyle won (by a lap) and his father, Richard Petty finished fourth. In the Indianapolis 500 that same day, Al Unser, Sr. won the race and his son, Al, Jr. finished fourth. Also, Hendrick had very good cars in 1987, and Benny Parsons showed it, as he alo showed flashes of his old self, finishing second in two of the first fur races. In fact, if not for a late caution at Atlanta, Benny would probably have won that race, and Tim Richmond did win twice. But the problems with Darrell Waltrip's teams and Junior Johnson'a were confounding to many people, but were really simple. Waltrip never did click with Waddell Wilson, and Terry Labonte was the exact opposite of the kind of driver that Junior Johnson liked. And Johnson's team was in decline two years anyway. But many people still feel cheated, because we'll never know what a healthy Tim Richmond would have done in 1987. For instance, I think Richmond would have won those races that Parsons finised second in, including the Daytona 500 (if Earnhardt's team hadn't fouled up the pit strategy at the end). But David, Richard Petty had problems that go beyond his 1988 Daytona 500 crash, other than is age. First, his team was no longer competitve, and secondly, he never did figure out the new generation GM cars that were introduced in 1988, so I don't think Rihard's performance would have been much different than it was. Remember that he was terrible n SpeedWeeks that year, and also was being affected by carbon monoxide, which was brought up in the telecast of the 1989 Daytona 500. And NicoRosbergFan, actually Rick Hendrick accomplished the feat of winning successive championships with different drivers twice. The first time was when Jeff Gordon won the title in 1995 and Terry Labonte in 1996. The second time occurred when Gordon won back the title in 1997. Since Labonte was the reigning champion, and was still with Hendrick Motorsports, Hendrick Motorsports technically did that twice in three years. And JRacingFast, where else does ESPN have room to put those races when they conflict with events on both of their main networks? The only other place I can think of would be ESPN Classic, and ESPN isn't about to give those races to a competing network, though they did that about three years ago. ESPNNEWS was effectively their only option. Remember that there is no channel devoted entirely to racing, and from what I've heard, SPEED is going away sometime ths year, so ESPN was caught in a trap that they really can't get out of concerning those Nationwide eries races you speak of. 2397. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2013 - 7:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But David, Richard Petty had problems that go beyond his 1988 Daytona 500 crash, other than is age. First, his team was no longer competitve, and secondly, he never did figure out the new generation GM cars that were introduced in 1988" I was gonna say that lol. With the "AeroWar" cars that were in full effect by 1988 (including the new Pontiac Grand Prix that would rocket Rusty Wallace to superstardom and a rightful first ballot induction into the NASCAR HOF), that hurt Petty Enterprises. By 1988, they were at least 15 years behind the curve already (and that might be generous) and then that wreck pretty much finished him off although he hung around for 5 more painful years which included DNQs and getting the FLOPPER award in 1990. "And as for the Brickyard 400 not being that great a race to watch. That might be true, but the first three or four runnings of that race were actually very competitve. What changed?" I'd argue that only the first one was truly "competitive" as for on track battles. The '95 race was all about getting in clean air with the new Monte Carlos and Thunderbirds. In '94 with the comparitively boxier Luminas and T-birds Jeff Gordon and Geoff Bodine, then Gordon and Ernie put on a hell of a show until Ernie cut a tire. "the ranking was Foyt first, Petty second, Andretti third, and Earnhardt fourth. And now they rank Earnhardt among the top five of all-time and omit Richard Petty? Other than Earnhardt's death in the 2001 Daytona 500, what else changed since 1999 when ESPN's list of he top 50 North American Drivers was first revealed to put Earnhardt ahead of Petty?" Two things. First a healthy Earnhardt finished 2nd in points at age 49, a full 20 years after winning his first championship. That gave him one championship in the old '77 model Sedans, 2 championships in the downsized but still boxy Monte Carlos, 4 championships and a runnerup in the AeroWar Luminas (which included a full switch from bias ply tires to radials), and two runnerups in the sleek downforce modern Monte Carlos. To have that much success spread over that long of a time period with so many changes, it gives you a lot to think about. Secondly, the time since his death has given us a chance to see just how much he had to carry Richard Childress' slack. Greatness + longevity + mostly underwhelming equipment = best ever. But I agree there is no reason to drop Petty out. He is The King and I hate the way people try to underplay his mind blowing success. Yes he had era specific advantages, but he still won 200 races and 7 championships. 2398. NicoRosbergFan posted: 01.30.2013 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think in general though we can agree that Mr. The King would still be Mr. The King even if they ran 29-36 race seasons from 49-present. DSFF, I will reiterate this, but there is no compelling way to really argue that Richard or Dale is greater than the other because they raced in different eras. It's the same thing in the NFL when they try to say Peyton Manning is so great because of his great numbers in an era where if you exist to close to an offensive player it's a 15-yard penalty and first down. There are only two I think are indisputably the greatest ever in their sport: Wayne Gretzky and Michael Phelps. 2399. Paul posted: 01.30.2013 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just to give you a little tidbit on how great Wayne Gretzky was, he scored 200+ points (goals and assists) in a season four times in his career. No other NHL hockey player has ever scored 200 points in a season before or since, and other than Mario Lemieux (who I consider the 2nd greatest hockey player of all-time), only two other players have ever reached 150 points in a season (with the highest of which being 152), and no hockey player has scored 150+ points in a season since Lemieux in '95-'96 when he came out of his 1st retirement. Not only that, but Gretzky played when there were fewer games than there are now (80 compared to 82). And in '83-'84, he missed six games (eight fewer than today's NHL) and not only did he still score 205 points, but he beat his closest competitor by SEVENTY-NINE POINTS. Not only was he the greatest hockey player of all-time, but he completely decimated his closest competition. In his 21-year professional hockey career, he scored 100+ points 15 times, led the league in scoring 10 times (including the aforementioned '83-'84 season, which has to be the most lopsided season from an individual standpoint in professional sports history since Don Hutson's pure dominance at the wide receiver position back in the '30s and '40s), scored 200+ points four times (including the '83-'84 season), won four Stanley Cup championships, and is the only hockey player (maybe the only professional sports player) to be inducted into the Hall of Fame upon retirement, instead of being issued the standard five-year waiting period. That's why they called him "The Great One." 2400. cjs3872 posted: 01.30.2013 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I think what happened at that 1995 Brickyard 400 was that, because the Indianapolis Motor Speedway track surface was so smooth (ironically, it was the last event held there until the track surface was repaved for 1996, which caused nothing but trouble) that the teams realized they culd run their suspension setups softer there than they could anywhere else, which may have caused the aero-push problem. But also, except for the early laps, no one car had an advantage over the rest of the field that day, which also made for great racing. Bill Elliott led the most laps that day, but Rusty Wallace (from 24th), Dale Earnhardt (despite hitting the wall in turn one), Jeff Gordon, Sterling Marlin, and even John Andretti (during pit stops) led chunks of that race. Also, there was only one caution that entire race, which also put the teams on edge. And the 1996 race was very good, despite the tire problems caused by the teams running on the edge of the grass and possibly throwing staple onto the track, something that produced a warning from the NASCAR officials. But again, no one single car ran away in that race, and even the 1997 race was good, and pit strategy spiced things up even more and produced the race's first surprise winner in Ricky Rudd. 1998 was really the first time, except for parts of the 1994 inaugural, that we saw one car just speed away from the rest of the field. And also, I had forgotten about Dale, Sr.'s 2000 season, though there were, I believe two reasons he did so well in 2000. First, he was healthy for the first time in years. Secondly, he wasracing against his son Dale, Jr., and that put a bit of hop in his step. In fact, other than his Daytona 500 win, I don't think Dale, Sr. ever showed the emotion he showed after the three races Dale, Jr. won in 2000, counting he All-Star Race, and I think his reaction to his son's wins spoke more than anything he did on the track that year, including his 18th to first charge in four laps in the fall race at Talladega, which proved to be his final victory. But still, in the case of ranking Richard Petty #1 at that time, I trust the opinions of those that raced against him more than I ever will any writers, esecially someone as great as A.J. Foyt was, and Foyt said that Petty was the greatest stock car driver of them all, and he's raced against the best, from men like Rodger Ward and Jimmy Bryan in IndyCar racing and Fireball Roberts and Joe Weatherly in the ate 50s and early 60s all the way through to the greats of the 80s, 90s, and even early 2000s that he raced against near the end of his career (he raced against Jeff Gordon, who's still a force today in the inaugural Brickyard 400), and I'll trust the opinion of a man like that far more than I ever will any writers, especially since most of them never saw King Richard race, except the way many of us, myself included, do, and that's through watching old telecasts. 2401. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2013 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of "greatest ever" discussions, there is something I want to touch on. During Super Bowl media day, Randy Moss stated that he thinks he is the greatest wide reciever ever to play football. Now I disagree completely. Moss was/is great, but Jerry Rice is in his own category in that area. As a matter of fact, I rarely agree with anything Randy does or says. BUT........ I must say I find Randy incredibly entertaining. He just flat out doesn't give a shit. He is gonna say what is on his mind and NEVER EVER apologize for it. But there is almost an innocence to Randy's antics. That is just him being who he is. Wheras other athletes have used their antics and controversial words to attract attention to themselves in a calculated manner (Terrell Owens comes to mind immediately), Randy is so non chalant about it. I will say this: I am gonna miss Randy Moss when he does hang it up for good. 2402. murb posted: 01.30.2013 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You guys ready for another Bleacher Report story? This jackass Chad Robb has an article posted called "Bold Predictions For The Daytona 500". Word for word, here's what one of these "predictions" was: "Brad Keselowski Will Tweet Under Green Last season, Brad Keselowski made headlines when he sent a tweet from his car while under caution. NASCAR fined Keselowski $25,000 for tweeting during the race. Keselowski did not seem to care as he gained many new followers because of his in-car tweet. Keselowski will take it a step further this year during the Daytona 500. Keselowski will become the first driver to send a tweet while driving the car. Daytona is one of the easiest racetracks for a driver. Keselowski will be able to ride in the back of the pack and send his tweet to his followers. He will make NASCAR furious and headlines at the same time." This better be a joke. If you sincerely believe that a driver would be that brainless on the racetrack, then you are not a race fan. And Daytona is an easy track? HOW IN THE HELL WOULD YOU KNOW? You're probably some fatass who neglects his wife and kids and rarely leaves his Laz-E-Boy!!! UGH!!! I don't know, I just thought I'd share that because it really bugged the hell out of me when I saw it. I've been going on Bleacher Report lately just to see the cluelessness for comedic reasons, but I'm thinking I should just stop doing that. It's just unfathomable how stupid some of these "race fans" and "writers" can be. They and these other people in the "media" just keep embarassing the sport of auto racing more and more. It's no wonder why the rest of the sports world thinks that we're all a bunch of mouth breathers. I hope Brad or one of the other drivers (like Stewart or Harvick or someone) sees this story. I'd love to hear what they have to say. 2403. Paul posted: 01.30.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Exactly. Moss doesn't seek out attention, but rather attention seeks out him. He isn't like T.O. or Chad Johnson, guys who sought after getting noticed from their celebratory antics, he simply says what's on his mind and doesn't say things in hopes of getting TV time on ESPN and other networks. He didn't "moon" Packer fans because he wanted to make the highlight film, or call Tom Brady a girl in 2010 when their marriage was ending or speak out against Brad Childress' incompetence as a head coach because he wanted to divert attention from the team. It was all him, and it was all natural. Whether you like him or not,--and I'll be the first one to criticize his "I play when I want to play" line when he was with the Raiders, as well as him walking off the field with two seconds to go in an '03 game against the Redskins--you have to respect him for his sincerity and his non-cliched attitude. He was truly a country boy who never lost touch with his roots despite his superstar status as a player. Heck, I've heard stories about how he loved playing in Minnesota because of all the lakes we have, as he enjoyed fishing in the offseason. For that I have the utmost respect for him as a man, and especially as a player. Is he the greatest wide receiver of all-time? No, I would say Jerry Rice is the undisputed champion of wide receivers. But I do think he is top ten, maybe even top five, as far as wide receivers go. He will always be #1 in the hearts of many Vikings fans for his incredible play in his few seasons. Without him, we don't go 15-1 in '98 or go to two NFC title games in his first three seasons because of how well he stretched the field and helped open up lanes for Cris Carter and Jake Reed across the middle of the field. A good part of me wants to see the 49ers win on Sunday just so Moss can have a ring before he retires. I know the media LOVES Ray Lewis and has dedicated all of their coverage to him and the Harbaugh brothers, but this could be Moss' last game too and I'd rather see him get the "John Elway send-off" than someone with as questionable of a past as Ray-Ray. Super Bowl or not, he'll be going to the Hall of Fame one day (unless the idiot voters hold his wide receiver position and "selfish" attitude against him) and will be remembered as one of the fiercest wide receivers of his day, and maybe of all-time. 2404. 18fan posted: 01.30.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I am forgetting what the FLOPPER award is. Can you please remind me? 2405. Paul posted: 01.30.2013 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) That's still not the worst excuse for sports journalism on a NASCAR subject I've seen today. This morning I saw a news story written by Sporting News (a.k.a. Dale Jr.'s/Danica's unofficial PR team) with a headline that read: "Dale Earnhardt Jr. says Danica-Ricky Stenhouse relationship no big deal." Okay, seriously, who gives a flying f*** what Dale Earnhardt, Jr. thinks about two rookie drivers hooking up in the midst of the former's divorce proceedings? Do they even try to make their interviewees make sense, or do they just write a story and go to Junior for his guidance on how the story should be formatted? My guess is the latter. I think that no matter if Junior supported or was against this relationship, the media would follow suit and would align their views with Junior's. Personally, I think this story is pretty self-explanatory: Two people start a relationship, and those of us that aren't a part of that relationship should stay out of it. Plain and simple. Tommy Baldwin was dead-on last June when he was on Wind Tunnel w/ Dave Despain and sarcastically stated: "[Junior] doesn't talk much, but when he does talk it must be true because Junior talked." It doesn't get much truer than that. Junior is the shepherd and the media are his sheep, and I don't think it gets much sadder than that headline posted above. "DSFF, I am forgetting what the FLOPPER award is. Can you please remind me?" Worst finishing driver in points who competed in/attempted every race in a season (depending on your preference). 2406. cjs3872 posted: 01.30.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Randy Moss' "I play when I want to play" linecame when he played with the Vikings, not the Raiders, though I can understand why he didn't want to go all-out when he was with the Raiders. He didn't have a QB, much less anything else around him, and by the way, the Raiders aren't much different now than they were in the two years he spent in Oakland. They still don't have a quality QB, as Carson Palmer has been a bust in Oakland, and they still don't have much because their other key players can't stay healthy. For those reasons, I believe when Peyton Manning retires, the Chargers will reclaim dominance in that division, because they're the only team that now seems to have a plan for the future. And for the reason of not always wantng to play, I wouldn't even put Moss at the top in terms of the greatest WR of this past generation. I would certainly rank Terrell Owens, the biggest team wrecker I've ever seen, ahead of Moss, because at least he put an effort in, despite what else you might think about him. And by the way, I've been suspicious about Ray Lewis and his return, especially because of his recent comments about how "the Lord" wanted him to come back. I think we now know he truth and how PEDs or similar things might have been involved, and it looks like I might be right. I also wonder if fellow Raven LB Terrell Suggs was also using PEDs during his recovery from ankle surgery, as well as his own arm injury. Something wasn't quite right about their quick recoveries, and with the recent revelations about Lewis, I think we now know why. And despite what people think, steroids, PEDs, and HGH (human growth hormone) is as rampant in the NFL as it's ever been, and now it's funneled to college, if what I heard about Alabama's footbal team is true, because apparently at least five players of the alabama football team did the exact same thing as Ray Lewis is reported to have done, with the exact same substance. And yes, I think PEDs and HGH is a significant part of the problem facing the NFL regarding head injuries and their long-term effects because of the size and speed of the players today. 2407. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.30.2013 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some people credit me inventing the flopper award, but that isn't true. I got it from a website. It is one of those "fun in a perverse way" things to follow. I get pissed off by the NASCAR media so much. I try to ignore them, but while trying to search for actual news, I can't help but stumble across some of these stories. BSPN's website has an equally appalling article about June called "Dale Jr comfortable being Dale Jr" or something like that. It is bad cause it talks about how he spent his early years being a recluse from the public (compaing him to Howard Hughes) and now he let's people into his world. BULL SHIT Within his first 3 years in Cup he had been on MTV Cribs, had an entire MTV special on him, had a book talking about all of his rookie season, a DVD which followed him around his house and life for a while, was on that NASCAR 360 show that all about behind the scenes, and appeared in 7,076 commercials. They also got his expert analysis on "The Relationship" because a guy pushing 40 who has never been married knows this kind of stuff. Although I guess between his Dad and sister he can talk a lot about divorce. Paul, you said it better than me about Randy. He is one of a kind and I also would like to see him on a Super Bowl winner. Although on the surface he would appear to be the opposite of what appeals to me, he has the one trait sorely lacking from all corners of society, authenticity. Whatever he does or says is directly from his brain, no ulterior motive. 2408. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) For the record, cjs, I've never criticized T.O.'s play on the field and I admire his willingness to run across the middle of the field, something that is rare for a superstar receiver like himself. But he made the 49ers a very unlikable team during his tenure there with his temper tantrums about not getting the ball enough (even though he held the record for most receptions in a single game for about a decade) and obnoxious touchdown celebrations that made him a very self-absorbed player. Nothing was ever good enough for him for most of his career, and it wasn't until he went to the Cowboys that he seemed to settle down and start to defend his quarterback from scrutiny, rather than take part in the scrutinizing himself. And while Randy Moss may have had his moments of not being a team player, at least he was honest about his opinions and did so in a more private setting, rather than working out outside on broadcasted TV with the media surrounding him as he made a fool out of himself and the Eagles' organization. Also, I 100% agree with your statement on Carson Palmer, as that has to be one of the worst free agent signings of the decade (and I realize the decade isn't that old, so maybe it is #1). The problem with that whole thing is they didn't need a quarterback, as they already had a proven starter in Jason Campbell to lead the way. Instead, they threw a bunch of money at Mike Brown to convince him to trade Palmer from the Bengals, which turned out to be Brown's greatest roster move since he drafted Palmer back in 2003, before the Steelers intentionally took him out and seriously damaged his left knee in the '05 playoff game. Palmer isn't what he used to be and wasn't worth the trade that the Raiders made for him, and that along with all the coaching changes made last offseason has pretty much derailed all of the momentum the Raiders had from the '10-'11 seasons. If Ray Lewis was cheating to get back into the lineup as early as he did, he doesn't deserve to walk off with a Super Bowl ring because had he not come back, the Ravens would have been knocked out already without his leadership and on-field presence, as they struggled during the regular season when he was hurt (I think they were 8-1 with him, and 5-5 without him). His answers to that question during "media day" didn't help his cause because he didn't really have an answer and tried to divert the attention by proclaiming the source to be not credible. I doubt anything will come of this story prior to the Super Bowl, but hopefully more details will be released in the days and weeks following the Super Bowl. For his sake, Lewis better not have been cheating with PEDs (or Terrell Suggs either, for that matter), because this could damage the credibility of the Ravens' Super Bowl appearance, win or loss. But DSFF, Junior is just a quiet, humble guy who never says much and doesn't like the attention he gets. After all, everything that Junior says is true. Right? lol 2409. cjs3872 posted: 01.31.2013 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, indefenseof Plmer, he has had his share of injuries since his breakout year of 2005, including that devastating knee injury in the playoff game against the rival Steelers. But the injury that deep-sixed what I thought could be a Hall of Fame career was his arm injuries in about 2008 or 2010, because that deprived him of some of the arm strength that made him the #1 pick in the draft when he came out. Everyone talks about wha happened to Jake Delhomme in Carloina. what people don't realize is that he was battling rotator cuff problems of his own, and I think they first started to manifest themselves in tht 5 INT game he had against the Cardinals in the 2008 playoffs, and the following year or two, that really came home to roost. And I think John Fox, who suffered through the Delhomme situation, may be looking at something similar with Peyton Manning in Denver, because a lack of arm strength affected what Denver would have normally done in that playoff game, so much that the Ravens starte condensing their defense because they no longer feared a deep passing game because they even suspected that Manning's arm may not be up to the task in those conditions. And the reason I think there's something suspicious with the Ravens and PEDs is the difference in the time that they should have been out and the time they were out. For instance, Lewis' triceps injury should have taken six months to recover from, and instead he was back in three, and the same is true regarding Terrell Suggs' achiles injury, ans he was back a full month ahead of schedule, and had his own arm injury. So yes, I think there's something fishy going on. But for Lewis, he really had nothing to chance, since he had already made the dicision that this would be his last year as a player, so the NFL couldn't penalize him if was was caught if he wasn't caught prior to the Super Bowl. Also, whatever this new sbstance is, it is similar to HGH, wich is illegal, but yet not tested for, so there's no way for the NFL to know tht it's being used. It's easy to get away with somethn like that if you know there's no test for it, and I think ervery team in the NFL is guilty of having players that are doing it, because I think it's that rampant, and I also thnk it's a part of the head injury problem today because of how big and fast the players are, and this didn't happen overnight. It's been happenin for years, and the NFL is virtually powerless to stop it. In fact, Major League Baseball will be the first pro sports league to test for HGH this coming season. 2410. 83andJoe posted: 01.31.2013 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ...and with Reutimann now with another team, time for yet another username change! Wheeee. Also, I'm confused. Apparently Brennan Newberry is running for ROTY in Trucks, despite (a) having run 10 races in the series last year, and (b) having run for points in Trucks last year. What /are/ the ROTY requirements now? 10 races? 2411. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Former NFL linebacker Bill Romanowski has signed on as a minority owner for Swan Racing, and his health supplement company "Nutrition53" will serve as the primary sponsor for David Stremme's #30 Cup car for 10 races, while serving as an associate sponsor for the remaining 26 races. Jimmie Johnson will make a rare Nationwide start in the first Phoenix race this season, driving the #5 Great Clips Chevrolet for JR Motorsports. I don't know why Brennan Newberry is still eligible for Truck Series Rookie of the Year (if that is in fact the case) because he ran more races than Ryan Blaney, who apparently isn't eligible for the award, despite switching to Truck Series points late in the season. 2412. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that, cjs, but Terrell Suggs returned to action one month ahead of schedule the week after Ray Lewis suffered what was supposed to be a season-ending triceps injury. It was almost like once he found out Lewis would be out, Suggs took whatever supplements he needed to return to action immediately, and it's possible he took whatever it was that Ray Lewis took, possibly Deer Antler Spray as well. And not only did Alabama allegedly use this Deer Antler Spray, but now I've heard a report (possibly a late one that's already been covered) that LSU players were using it prior to their 9-6 victory over Alabama in their 2011 regular season game. Also, there's a report that Hue Jackson, who served as Ravens quarterbacks coach from '08-'09, handed out this Deer Antler Spray and stickers (also known as "chips") to players, along with acupuncture needles used to inject this stuff into the players' bodies. There's more to this story than just that, but already it doesn't sound right. I'll post a link that covers and explains this story and the SI report when I get a chance. 2413. Daniel posted: 01.31.2013 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Blaney has sponsorship from SANY America for 14 races. 2414. cjs3872 posted: 01.31.2013 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ??andJoe, the only requirement to compete for Rookie of the Year seems to be that a driver must not have competed for points in that series, something I brought up late in 2011. For instance, even though Trevor Bayne's driven about 35 races, and has won the biggest event in the sport, the Daytona 500, he would still be eligible to run for Rookie of the Year in the Cup Series in 2014, should Roush elevate him next year (and he's already stated that's a possibility depending on performance and sponsorship) because he's never competed for points in the Cup Series, despite running more than 15 races each of the ast two years. Danica is eligible to run for the Rookie of the Year this coming season for the same reason, because she's never been eligible for points in NASCAR's top series. And Paul, was Hue Jackson doing this while with the Ravens? If so, then that woul mean that they've been involved with this kind of thing for a number of years now. And that the Ravens may be to this Deer Antler Spray controversy what the Raiders may have been to steroids in the 1980s, where the NFL is concerned. But as I continue to say, I believe every team in the NFL s guilty of this to some degree, and that PEDs and HGH are that rampant in the NFL, and that the PEDs and HGH are, to some degree, contriubuting to the head injury crisis in the NFL over the last few years, because of the sheer size and speed of the players. There's only so much that the human body can take, and the collisions with bigger, stronger, and faster players are causing these injuries at a rate that the NFL just can't keep up with. Linebackers and tight ends today are bigger than linemen were in the 1980s and even the early 90s, and quite a few wide receivers and defensive backs are now bigger than some linebackers were in the 1970s and 80s. Heck, there were even defensive ends in the 70s and early 80s that weren't quite as big as some of the receivers are today. For instance, look at the Los Angeles Rams teams of the 1970s. Hall of Famer Jack Youngblood, a defensve tackle, didn't go more than 240-250 and Fred Dryer, who was their defensive end, didn't weigh more than 230-240. Also, Jack Lambert weighed about 210 when the Steelers drafted him in 1974, and he was the roughest player at is position in the era he played in. There are quite a number of quarterbacks that weigh more than 230-240 now. For instance, when he played, Roman Gabriel was an acute anomaly. Now there are a number of teams with QBs of that physical stature. 2415. 83andJoe posted: 01.31.2013 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >??andJoe, the only requirement to compete for Rookie of the Year seems to be that a driver must not have competed for points in that series, something I brought up late in 2011. I know; that's my point. Newberry ran for Truck points last year (and finished 31st in points), but his press releases now say "Sunoco Rookie of the Year contender..." 2416. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's a video on ESPN.com of Ray Evernham interviewing Jeff Gordon about the upcoming season. Some of the highlights from the interview include discussing the highs and lows of 2012, what to expect from the 2013 Cup cars (he says that the driver should have more control of the car due to having less downforce), Jeff praising Brad and saying how he could tell in 2011 that Brad would be tough to be the following season, when he expects to retire from racing, if he thinks one of his kids might take up a career in racing, and just having some laughs with his former crew chief. Pretty entertaining interview if I do say so myself. I get the feeling that Jeff isn't interested in stepping away from the cockpit anytime soon because it's something that he's able to share with his kids (in fact, I think he might have already retired had he not had two kids because after his struggles that resonated for most of '02-'10, he might have lost the desire to race, having nobody to share it with). He also firmly believes that HMS' restrictor plate program is the best in the sport, and if that's true, he could be a contender for the Daytona 500 because he is hands down the best plate driver at HMS. Jeff and Ray still have great chemistry with one another, and it's not hard to see why they had so much success and are still good friends to this day by the way they interacted throughout the interview (reminds me of an older brother/young brother relationship). If Jeff decides to become a TV analyst when he retires (which was a frequent talking point during the interview), he and Ray would be a perfect pairing. The interview is on the front page of ESPN's NASCAR site if anyone is interested in seeing it. It's about 27 minutes long, so it's a fairly long interview, but I think it's definitely worth watching. Heck, at least it has something to do with racing, which hasn't exactly been a central talking point this offseason. 2417. JG24FanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 25 Greatest Cup Drivers 1. Richard Petty 2. Jeff Gordon 3. David Pearson 4. Dale Earnhardt 5. Jimmie Johnson 6. Bobby Allison 7. Darrell Waltrip 8. Cale Yarborough 9. Tony Stewart 10.Herb Thomas 11.Tim Flock 12.Bill Elliott(3 Southern 500 wins,2 Daytona 500 wins,3 Super Bowl appearances) 13.Rusty Wallace 14.Mark Martin 15.Lee Petty 16.Junior Johnson 17.Ned Jarrett 18.Fireball Roberts 19.Buck Baker 20.Curtis Turner 21.Fred Lorenzen 22.Dale Jarrett 23.Joe Weatherly 24.Terry Labonte 25.Bobby Isaac Top 15 Greatest F1 Drivers 1. Michael Schumacher 2. Jim Clark 3. Jackie Stewart 4. Alain Prost 5. Ayrton Senna 6. Fernando Alonso 7. Juan Manuel Fangio 8. Lewis Hamilton 9. Sebastian Vettel 10.Alberto Ascari 11.Mika Hakkinen 12.Stirling Moss 13.Niki Lauda 14.Jack Brabham 15.Graham Hill ;) :o 2418. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Jeff and Ray, just about every major paint scheme for 2013 has been released. This includes Jeff's Drive To End Hunger scheme for this year, as well as the Pepsi car he will drive in a few races. But I have not even seen a trace of his '13 DuPont scheme. No news or anything about it even though we know they will have a portion of the races. Are they gonna pleasantly surprise us all by one day all at once unveiling a permanent (for their races) throwback to the rainbow scheme? Or are they coming up with a bound to be disappointing new scheme (which we would probably think of as really cool for any other car)? Speaking of paint schemes, is anyone else glad Roush has changed the styling of the #17 that will be on Mr Danica Patrick's Stenhouse's cars? I don't officially dislike Ricky yet (although, if his NWide attitude is any indication, it will be coming soon) and I am definitely looking forward to the on track second coming of Swervin Irvan, it is a great move for them to "retire" that particular styling of the #17 after Matt carried it so proud for so long. I honestly wouldn't mind Richard bringing back the #3 for Austin as long as it isn't "The Iconic Stylized #3 That Richard Childress Made So Famous Now Austin Can Carry On Dale's Legacy". 2419. JG24FanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone seen the 2012 "Retro" #24 paint scheme that combined the Rainbow and Flame schemes? It was only used on Die-cast collectible cars. 2420. JG24FanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't officially dislike Ricky yet" I went ahead and started the Club. "I honestly wouldn't mind Richard bringing back the #3 for Austin as long as it isn't "The Iconic Stylized #3 That Richard Childress Made So Famous Now Austin Can Carry On Dale's Legacy"." I wish they would just retire the #3 and let Austin drive the #33 or maybe #31. 2421. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think JG24 is trying to put DSFF into his own ambulance with the way he ranked #2 and #4 on his 25 greatest Cup drivers list. "Are they gonna pleasantly surprise us all by one day all at once unveiling a permanent (for their races) throwback to the rainbow scheme?" I'd be all for it. There aren't too many pain schemes that wow you anymore, and bringing back the old "Rainbow Warrior" paint scheme would be a pleasant change of pace. Plus, he'll probably get more boos from fans who haven't forgotten the Phoenix race than he has in recent years, so they might as well boo him when he's driving a rainbow paint scheme. "Speaking of paint schemes, is anyone else glad Roush has changed the styling of the #17 that will be on Stenhouse's cars?" Yes. Stenhouse is the complete opposite of Matt Kenseth in terms of driving style and personality, so disassociating him from a number font that is the exact same as the calm, conservative Kenseth would almost be a mockery, though not as bad as if Stenhouse were to drive the #6 on a full-time basis. "I honestly wouldn't mind Richard bringing back the #3 for Austin as long as it isn't "The Iconic Stylized #3 That Richard Childress Made So Famous Now Austin Can Carry On Dale's Legacy"." Totally agree. I think Austin should drive a #3 font that more resembles Richard Childress' number from his driving days or Ricky Rudd's when he drove the #3 in '82-'83, with the red #3 that looked like three red horizontal blocks stacked on top of one another. At least then nobody will confuse Austin with a driver who can win races in the Cup Series. 2422. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Has anyone seen the 2012 "Retro" #24 paint scheme that combined the Rainbow and Flame schemes?" No, but I did download a #24 car with those exact features on my NASCAR Racing 2003 Season game. It's a mixture of badass and horror lol. "I wish they would just retire the #3 and let Austin drive the #33 or maybe #31." I just got an idea. What if RCR purchases the #32 number from Frankie Stoddard and gives that to Austin. That way, Austin will be able to say "I'm number three too." It'd be like when Melling Racing changed their Cup team's number from #9 to #92 in 2001, after they gave their number to Evernham Motorsports so Bill Elliott could use it, and they used the tagline "We're number nine too." 2423. 18fan posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just had a thought reading some of these comments. If Dale Earnhardt was still alive, how much involvement would he have in NASCAR right now? 2424. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, You forgot to mention that going into the 2012 draft that NFL Scouts thought Matt Kalil needed to add weight despite being around 310 pounds for being offensive tackle. There had been some fishy stuff that I remembered dating back to 1997 based on what NFL Players can pull off. It is not normal for an offensive linemen to run a 4.6 in a 40 yard dash in a NFL Combine, but yet Walter Jones did in 1997 despite weighing 325 pounds. Anyone who says Walter Jones wasn't on something has to be lying because its not normal for an offensive lineman to run as faster as a linebacker or a fast tight end. The head injury crisis is something different. I don't think PEDS and HGH are cause that because of the roots of the problem. NFL Players that played in the 1950's and 1960's suffered problems later in life caused by concussions including Forrest Gregg. The fact is I believe that have been a lot of cause of NFL Players suffering concussions in the past that are affected by them after their playing days that we don't know about. The NFL did have a steroid test program that began in the late 1980's. NFL Players in the late 1980's did get suspended for Steroids and other drugs. Tony Mandarich got off steroids before the testing, but he fooled a lot of NFL teams besides the Packers. Jimmie Johnson even considered drafting Mandarich over Aikman. 13 NFL Players in 1989 were suspended for steroids matter of fact. How legit it is has been a question and its drug testing in general because there is no other explanation on how NFL Players on the Dallas Cowboys back in the 1990's did drugs, but passed NFL drug tests including Michael Irvin. 2425. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.31.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan, If Dale Earnhardt was still alive, he would be involved on the ownership side. I don't think he'll be an involved in NASCAR as much as he was though at the time of his death. I think he would have been fed up with the folks of Daytona including Brian France. The only thing is I think we would have seen more out of his son Dale Jr reaching to his full potential instead of getting all but 4 career cup wins in a 5 year span. The only other thing might have been taking Cup drivers like Kyle Busch to the woodshed. I know Dale Sr. would have opposed head and neck restraints. The only thing Dale loved with future advances in safety was the safer barriers based on what I recalled. 2426. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Has anyone seen the 2012 "Retro" #24 paint scheme that combined the Rainbow and Flame schemes? It was only used on Die-cast collectible cars." Yeah, I saw a 1/64 scale of that in a die cast store. I gotta be honest, I didn't like it. I have never been a fan of "medley" paint schemes (anyone remember that Star Wars paint scheme, I can't remember who drove it or even which team, but half of it was light cheerful colors of the Jedi and the other half was black representing The Dark Side, man it was awful). "I went ahead and started the Club." Save me a spot, I will probably be there soon. Right now I am still fixated by the fact that, on track, he could literally crash at any moment no matter what the situation, watching him I feel like I am a kid and it is somewhere between '90 and '93 again and I am watching a yellow and red #4 car (underrated paint scheme historically imo). "or Ricky Rudd's when he drove the #3 in '82-'83, with the red #3 that looked like three red horizontal blocks stacked on top of one another" That was a hideous styling lol. Dale actually drove it his first year for RCR in '84 but I wouldn't mind if Austin drove that styled #3 out there. 2427. murb posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For Austin, they should just run the skinnier looking 3 that is used on the 33 car. I agree, I don't mind him running the 3 at all as long is it looks different and isn't mocked up to be one of Dale's cars. Unfortunately though, even if they do go with another number font, we'll still have BSPN shoving the "he's carrying on Dale's legacy" stuff down our throats. I too was happy to see that Roush changed the 17 for Stenhouse. Now he can form his own identity in the Cup Series with a different look. 2428. murb posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Dale Earnhardt was still alive, how much involvement would he have in NASCAR right now?" I can almost guarantee you three things. - DEI would still exist and be a powerhouse. - Dale Jr would have had a much better career (possibly a championship) since his dad would have been around to push him. - The current group of smart-mouth drivers (Busch Brothers, Logano, Montoya, Harvick at times, Hamlin at times,) wouldn't be able to get away with any of it because there would be an intimidating (no pun intended), legendary enforcer type figure around at the track to put them all in their place. 2429. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That #4 yellow Kodak paint scheme was pretty awesome, and it sort of had this old school look to it. Ernie Irvan and Sterling Marlin each made that paint scheme epic because when you saw it, it was almost like the paint scheme was saying "Yeah my team isn't that great and we have a hard time keeping pace with the bigger teams, but there's a wheel-man driving this thing that's going to get as much out of this Virginian sheet metal as possible." As sad as I was to see that paint scheme go away when Kodak pulled out, considering how it was the final team/sponsor/number combination from the '80s, it was only appropriate that its last race was also the final race under the Winston Cup banner (and in a Pontiac too, which was also in its last race as a supported manufacturer). That race truly marked the end of an era. 2430. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That Evernham/Gordon interview was actually really good. Very insightful. And focused on the important topics. It was also fun to watch them needle each other about things that happened during their tenure together like the 1996 collapse, Jeff showing up late to practice in Charlotte (did we ever get the real story behind that one?) and to a Martinsville practice early in his career (I never knew about this one, but I'll give Jeff a pass on that one, I've been to that track numerous times, Jeff probably just couldn't find the damn thing, it is kinda hidden off the highway in a residential development), and "the hubs" which we all know are the illegal hubs they were caught with in the '95 World 600 when Jeff's wheel came off. Ray's quotes were priceless: "They were approved hubs, just not approved by NASCAR" and looking at Jeff "You approved them". 2431. DaleSrFanForever posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "PEDs and HGH are that rampant in the NFL, and that the PEDs and HGH are, to some degree, contriubuting to the head injury crisis in the NFL over the last few years, because of the sheer size and speed of the players." In my opinion that is THE contributing factor in the recent surge in debilitating head injuries, other than the fact that football is just an inherently violent game which will always produce injuries to a degree no matter what. These guys are HUGE, and running darn near Olympic sprinter speeds. To have such a mass of player going those speeds, colliding with another huge mass of a player going in the opposite direction, that is producing a lot of energy that isn't gonna disappear into thin air, it will be transferred from one body to another. Something has to give, and your brain is free floating in your skull in fluid. If the players were smaller and slower, it wouldn't be a violent of a collision and there would be less head injuries. I mean now it isn't even the huge hits that send shockwaves all the way up to the nosebleed seats and cause turbulence to the Goodyear blimp. Remember the AFC title game when that New England running back got KNOCKED THE F**K OUT? Bernard Pollard just stopped and lowered his shoulder causing the RB to crash into him. Not exactly two freight trains colliding, but his lights went out immediately. That guy probably still doesn't know where he is at. He is probably at home studying game films of the 49ers figuring out what he needs to do to win the Super Bowl. One last thing about football: this Saturday they announce the 2012 NFL MVP. There are only two possible outcomes: 1) All Day gets his rightful MVP awards for (literally) carrying the Vikes to the playoffs or 2) WARRIOR!!!!!!!!!!!! 2432. David posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Smith just put up the advanced stats table for the 2008 Cup Series on his site (for subscribers only). The leader in PEER? Carl Edwards, with a 4.500 rating, easily the highest in the past five seasons. To put that in perspective, Jimmie Johnson scored *only* a 4.458 rating in 2007, though Jeff Gordon had a rating of 4.667. The highest rating since then for a driver who ran all 36 races was 3.694 for Johnson in 2009. 2433. Packerfan4ver posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) PEDs and HGH aren't in all cases why the NFL Players are bigger. Nate Newton of the Dallas Cowboys and Gilbert Brown were examples of players that were huge without using performance enhancing drugs. Those two gentleman actually weight problems in real life. William "the Refrigerator" Perry didn't use performance enhancing drugs either. The late Chester Mcglockton had weight problems after football and struggled with his weight before he died of a enlarged heart. While players take PEDS and HGH, it isn't the case for all offensive and defensive lineman. Some of the players are naturally very big. The truth is some of the players had big lifestyles to begin with and is one of the factor on why NFL Players die in their 50's. There needs to be a weight limit in terms of making the lineman down to 310 to 315 pounds instead of being 330 to 350 pounds. 2434. cjs3872 posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, for your information, that's exactly where I have both Gordon (#2) and Dale, Sr. (#4) ranked on my list, so JG24FF is not alone in that way of thinking. AndI alo see that you and I (apparently along with Jack Roush) agree that Stenhouse, with his fiery attitude, is not the guy to cary n the legacy of the #6 car at Roush. As I've said before, I thought it was puzzling that roush didn't give Stenhouse the #6 in Cup, despite the fact that he used it to win successive Nationwide Series titles, and ran it in the few Cup races he ran in 2012, which included a good 12th place effort at Dover in which he ran an uncharacteristicly conservative race. I think that right there told me that Roush appearntly believes that Trevor Bayne is the true heir to Mark Martin in the #6 car at Roush, which is the flagship car at Roush. Frankly, I don't think Bayne will have that much success in the Nationwide Series in 2013, as he seems better suited to the longer Cup races than I think Stenhouse is suited for, and as I've said, the Roush organization as a whole might struggle on the Cupside without Matt Kenseth's leadership, which has already become evident at Joe Gibbs Racing. And Packerfan4ver, I'm not saying that PEDs and HGH areat the crux of the head injury matter, especially for the older players, but what I an saying is that because of PEDs and HGH, the players are bigger, stronger, and faster, and as a result, these problems are rearing their ugly heads now faster than the NFL can catch up because the speed of the collisions is much greater now than it ever has been. After all, Ravens safety Ed Reed is now complaining about occasional memory loss, and he's only about 32 years old, and it's going to get worse if the NFL doesn't try to implement tougher testing policies, and begin testing for stuff like HGH, which can't be detected with current testing procedures. Major League Baseball will betesting for HGH, beginning this year. And about the steroid testing being inaugurated in the late 80s, you're correct about that, and that put the NFL ahead of everyone else, as far as PED testing goes, but now they're behind virtually everyone else in a sport where PEDs give a player a much bigger edge than it ever would in baseball, because of the physicality involved. And also, being that Dale Earnhardt, Sr. actually WAS a car owner at the time of his death (his cars finished 1-2 in the race where he lost his life, the 2001 Daytona 500), he certainly would still be a car owner today, and probably would have his team right up there with Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, and Penske, an elite team racing for championshps annually. And yes, Dale, Sr. would never have tolerated the punkish attitudes of drivers like Kyle Busch, Juan Montoya, Carl Edwards, and even the driver that replaced him, Kevin Harvick, among others. He would hae put them in their place. And let's not forget that gesture he gave Kyle Busch's older brother Kurt during the 2001 Daytona 500 after the two got together near the S/F line. And Dale, Sr. did not like Kurt's smarmy attitude, especally after a few run-ins that Kurt had with Dale, Jr. late in 2000, so Dale, Sr. took matters into his own hands at Homestead when he got around Kurt, and he would have done the same with the other punks I mentioned, because Dale, Sr. had a personal code of conduct that he held in high regard, and if anyone crossed that line, he'd let you know. In fact, Dale, Sr. was worried about the attitudes of the drvers entering Cup as far back as the late 90s, and openly expressed his displeasure about that, so he was aware of the cocky attitudes of the drivers coming up in the late 90s and early 2000s, and he didn't like it one bit, because he thought they did not always show the same level of respect that he believed a driver racing at the top level needed to have, something that was impresed upon him by the stars of the sport when he was coming up inthe late 70s, such as Petty, Pearson, Yarborough, the Allisons, Parsons, Baker, and that crowd, and they let him know when he got out of line, and he felt, and has proven to be right, that the younger drivers need a firm hand among the drivers to let them know that they have to respect their fellow competitors. More than anyone else today, I think Tony Stewart fills that role, buteven he gets out of line, though not as often as he used to. 2435. Paul posted: 01.31.2013 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I heard a quote from some football analyst this week who said that the best helmet that was ever used in the NFL was the old leather helmet from the early days of football, because nobody was going to lead with their heads to make a tackle if they had virtually no protection on their heads. I think one of the problems today is that players think that with all of their padding, they are invincible and don't think of the repercussions of their violent hits. That and the fact that they know that their big hits will be celebrated by the sports media are the biggest reasons for why players are making the big bone-crushing hits that wind up hurting players and affecting their careers and lives in the process. Speaking of Bernard Pollard, he had some colorful comments about the league eventually collapsing and not existing in 30 years because of all the rules changes and him thinking that the fans want to see the big hits that might become outlawed in a few years. That's funny, because I believe that we just had the Pro Bowl last week (which if you don't know, is basically a joke since hardly anyone gives any effort in that game, except for "All Day" of course), and over 12 million people watched it, making it the highest viewed TV show of the week. So if the fans are starting to turn away from the NFL because of the rules changes, they sure have a funny way of showing it. And speaking of Ravens safeties speaking out, did you guys hear what Ed Reed said about Junior Seau? When asked about what his thoughts were about Seau committing suicide last year after years of head-related injuries, Reed responded with "Did he sign up for it? Yeah, he signed up for it." Oh yeah, he totally wanted to play pro football for 20 years, become the best linebacker of the '90s and one of the greatest of all-time, and then shoot himself in the chest two years into retirement because he was battling with depression due to all of the head injuries he suffered. Yeah, he totally signed up for that. Then to make matters worse, Reed followed it up by saying "Junior gave everything he had to football. I'm sure he's looking down and has no regrets." So are you saying that he wanted this to happen? He wanted to kill himself because he couldn't deal with life after football and battle with depression and head injuries? Look dude, I realize that you are a deep follower of the Ray Lewis School of Ministries, but show some respect for Seau and his family and friends for the tragedy that took place last year. Now I know that he has since retracted on this statement, which is a common practice for athletes who say things that they mean, but act like they didn't mean them afterwards (like that moron 49ers player who spoke out against having gay players for teammates and saying they should wait 10 years before they come out of the closet), but it doesn't change the fact that made light of Seau's death and doesn't give a damn about player safety and wellness. Considering how Reed is a noted head hunter in the game of football, I'm not surprised he shows as little regard for safety as he does (or Pollard either). For a guy who will one day go to the Pro Football Hall of Fame for being arguably the best safety of his generation, he doesn't come off as being very smart with stupid remarks like this. But then again, if the media didn't have as much access to the players during Super Bowl week as they do, we probably wouldn't hear as much idiocy from the players, as there have been at least four that have occurred already (Ray Ray, Reed, Pollard, that homophobic 49ers player). 2436. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(anyone remember that Star Wars paint scheme, I can't remember who drove it or even which team, but half of it was light cheerful colors of the Jedi and the other half was black representing The Dark Side, man it was awful)." John Andretti drove that car in the 2002 Coca-Cola 600. Petty Enterprises usually had really nice paint schemes, but that Star Wars car wasn't one of them. 2437. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ray's quotes were priceless: "They were approved hubs, just not approved by NASCAR" and looking at Jeff "You approved them"." HAHAHA!!! If there's one thing I learned from that interview, it's that if a driver/crew member makes jokes about their past rule-breaking escapades, chances are they are/were associated with HMS at one point. 2438. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an interesting sponsorship story. It's been well-documented that Dale Earnhardt, Jr. has 13 races this season without a primary sponsor put into place, and apparently PETA, a well-known non-profit animal rights group, wrote a letter to Junior about putting their logo on his car to spread the word about their organization (here's where it gets good)...FOR FREE. As someone who loves animals, I hope Junior and HMS at least considers this offer to put PETA's logo on their car in the event they cannot fill up the car with sponsors. PETA is thought of as a liberal group by many people, and if the most popular driver of a largely conservative sport could do this in a blue-collar area like Charlotte, Darlington, or Martinsville (if those races aren't filled up), I think he could do a lot to spread the word to people that might not normally go for this type of thing. Considering how Junior has made statements in the past that suggests he leans to the left on the political spectrum, I'll bet that he would willing to do this. 2439. murb posted: 02.01.2013 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Former driver Tyler Walker (banned from Nascar after multiple drug test failures) got arrested after a car chase through Nevada, Arizona, and Utah. Not surprised. I recently saw a video of him sporting sketchy dreadlocks and cussing out and picking a fight with a crew member at a USAC race not too long ago. It's a shame. He had a pretty promising career. He was sort of Kasey Kahne's protege at one point. 2440. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually watched video of that fight a few hours ago. Apparently he and his crew were upset that they were being black flagged after Walker passed a slower car below the cone. They had every right to be upset, but to start a fight over something like that I don't think justifies the situation. As for his car chase, I read some comments on a Facebook page called "Sprint Car Memes" about the car chase, not knowing what the hell they were talking about, until now. What a shame. He looked pretty good in his limited Nationwide starts while splitting seat time with Kasey Kahne. Then he got a full-time ride with Bill Davis Racing in the Truck Series in 2007, until he failed a drug test and refused to go to rehab, insisting on returning to sprint cars instead. And now this happened. I hope he gets his act together some day like Shane Hmiel and Aaron Fike have, because he's flirtin' with disaster with the way he's been living his life over the past few years. 2441. 83andJoe posted: 02.01.2013 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul: if Junior does anything with PETA, Dale Senior is going to be rising from his grave to smack his boy around upside the head. PETA is one of the biggest, most digsusting anti-hunting (and anti-sensical) groups in the world, and that's all I will say of them. 2442. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.01.2013 - 4:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Reutimann changes car numbers just to drive you insane. A friend of mine described PETA like this: They would use hydrogen warfare to destroy the entire universe if they could destroy all things related to humans and leave the animals unharmed. 2443. 83andJoe posted: 02.01.2013 - 5:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NRF - I've started to wonder that! =p And...that would be pretty much an accurate description. 2444. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.01.2013 - 7:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or do these new cars look like they're on steroids. 2445. jabber1990 posted: 02.01.2013 - 9:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) the #4 car was around with that sponsor/paint job for what? 20 years? I dont understand the AARP/Drive to end hunger sponsorship, ok so so your talking about ending hunger so you are spending $20,000,000 to advertise driving to end hunger, I love NASCAR and stuff, but really, you cant think of a better way to spend that kind of money? 2446. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 9:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's a shame. He had a pretty promising career. He was sort of Kasey Kahne's protege at one point." The only thing I remember Tyler Walker for is taking out Brendan Gaughan in the 2003 Truck Series finale and out of the championship chase. 2447. murb posted: 02.01.2013 - 9:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The only thing I remember Tyler Walker for is taking out Brendan Gaughan in the 2003 Truck Series finale and out of the championship chase." Yeah, that too. But he actually had some pretty good runs in the 38 Great Clips Busch car that he shared with Kasey in around 2004/2005. 2448. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 10:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The future renovation of Daytona may affect the track's race weekends. 2449. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This comment is dedicated to the 500th anniversary of NASCAR's first Cup series season. 2450. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.01.2013 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) People Eating Tasty Animals I am a card carrying member! On a serious note, I also love animals, but PETA goes way too far and protests some things just for the sake of attention. They have turned into a running punchline. The only good thing about them now is that Pam Anderson will occasionally get naked to do publicity for them. 2451. FloridaFan88 posted: 02.01.2013 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In reference to comments #2446 and #2447, Marty Houston was the one that got together with Gaughan, not Walker. 2452. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just watched the replay, and it was Marty Houston who hooked Brendan Gaughan into the wall at Homestead '03, not Tyler Walker (who was teammates to Houston in that race). Even though I liked Ted Musgrave, I'm glad he was black flagged at the end of the race and lost the championship as a result because of what his truck owner Jim Smith did. Oh I'm sure that it was just a coincidence that he just so happened to enter two extra trucks, one being unsponsored (Walker) and one being driven by the brother of regular driver Andy Houston (Marty Houston), in a race that fellow full-time driver Ted Musgrave was within striking distance of the championship. I don't know if Marty Houston wrecked Brendan on purpose (either that, or he's a moron for turning dead left exiting a turn when he knew he had a flat right front tire), but that was no accident that Jim Smith entered two extra trucks for that race. 2453. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ That should say three extra trucks, as P.J. Jones drove a 5th Ultra Motorsports truck in that race (though for some reason, Jim Smith isn't listed as the owner on this site). 2454. cjs3872 posted: 02.01.2013 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, other teams have been doing that for years. In 1993, Richard Childress entered a car for Neil Bonnett just to have him park it, so Dale Earnhardt would have one less car to worry about. In 1995, Rick Hendrick did that when he entered two extra cars for the Atlanta finale, just in case something happened with Jeff Gordon. Hedrick's plan was to park those extra cars for a couple of laps each as an insurance poilcy in case something happned to Jeff Gordon. And those two extra cars were paired down to one when Jimmy Horton, who was to drive one of those cars, suffered a basular skull fractucre in the ARCA race the day prior to the Cup race (he survived the injury). And let's not forget the incident that brought on that absurd exemption rule. In the fall race at Atlanta in 2004, several teams entered extra cars for that race, trying to protect their Chase partcipants. Hendrick and Penske each entered extra cars, and partially as a result, two fully sponsored cars, the #10 of Scott Riggs and the #22 of Scott Wimmer went home. That one incident brought on the exemption rule, which debuted the following year, locking in 35 cars for each Cup race, 30 for each Busch/Nationwide race, and 25 for each Truck race, which only hd 36 spots on the grid, compared to 43 for the other two series. And of course, the grand daddy of all such incidents, where car owners put extra cars in the field to protect their championship drivers, occurred in 1956, when that tactic had a tragic ending for one of the sport's first legends, Herb Thomas. Carl Kiekhafer entered an extra car for Speedy Thompson for a race that h had politicked onto the schedulethat wasn't thr to bein with, and that set off the chain of events that ended Thomas' career and nearly his life, and forever altered the championship race in 1956. So these kinds of dealings have been going on for years, which may be one reason NASCAR instituted the four-team rule in 2007-'08, limiting teams to four cars, with a fifth allowed for rookie drivers for a limited number of races. Teams that already had more than four cars were "grandfathered in", and thus allowed to run their full compliment of teams, but could not have a team return if it had to be shut down, and even that loophole was eliminated for 2010. 2455. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, the difference between what RCR did in '93 with Neil Bonnett and what HMS did in '95 with Purvis compared to what Ultra Motorsports did in '03 with fielding three extra trucks is that RCR and HMS had a large point lead going into the final race with Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon, respectively. Ultra Motorsports driver Ted Musgrave was 26 points out of the lead, which is the equivalent of 5-9 positions on the race track, so adding extra trucks into the race would only hurt Musgrave if those trucks were added just to start-and-park or ride around all day. The only way having those extra trucks would benefit Musgrave is if they acted as rolling chicanes or wrecked Brendan Gaughan, Travis Kvapil, and/or Dennis Setzer, the drivers he was battling against for the title. And they did both of those things in that race. RCR had Neil Bonnett as a liability in case Earnhardt's car failed to start before the race began, and ultimately parked very early after Earnhardt's car stayed intact. Purvis (and Jimmy Horton as well) was added by HMS in case Gordon's car failed very early in the race, and would pull in and park to prevent Gordon from finishing 42nd, which would have lost Gordon the title had it happened. But Tyler Walker, Marty Houston, and P.J. Jones were added simply to help Musgrave win the title, because they would have actually benefited Gaughan had they pulled in and parked, because they would fill up three positions that Gaughan wouldn't have to worry about finishing in. I don't know if the wreck was intentional or not, but those three trucks were there for one reason, and that was to cause Gaughan the championship, which they did, however Musgrave didn't win the championship. They weren't there to prevent a driver from losing a championship like in the case of Bonnett and Purvis, they were there to cause a driver to lose the championship. They succeeded, yet ultimately failed because their driver lost any way. 2456. Talon64 posted: 02.01.2013 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know who else reads David Smith, and I'm not going to try and not go into details about it since it's pay-to-read, but I'm amazed at how Crash Frequency completely flies in the face of the popular opinion here that Ricky Stenhouse Jr. is a reckless driver and Trevor Bayne's a wreckless one. Ricky's CF in Nationwide this year was below the average (i.e. in the good range), was pretty close to Sadler and Dillon, and his CF went down every year he was in Nationwide. While Bayne had the worst crash frequency in Cup last year and 2nd-worst in 2011. Bayne's crash frequencies surprised me, but he basically wrecks at least once every two races in Cup. You could say that a rookie's going to be more likely to wreck in Cup than Nationwide, especially a young/rookie driver, but a driver in that situation needs to be racking up as much experience as possible and wrecking a lot does nothing for that. Plus, a Nationwide rookie like Timmy Hill had the best CF in 2011 and was still below the average in 2012. BTW Bayne's Crash Frequency in Nationwide was 0.49 in 2010 and 0.31 in 2011 (I figured those out myself). I think he'll be below whatever the average is this year, since championship is going to be on his and the #6 team's mind. And hopefully he'll cut down on the crashing in Cup, because he'll need to show himself off this year to make sure he not only gets a Cup ride in 2014 but has the sponsorship for it. 2457. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.01.2013 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bayne probably didn't crash himself once. He probably suffered blown Goodyears and getting caught in others wrecks. 2458. jabber1990 posted: 02.01.2013 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought the reason the 5-car rule was because in 2005 Roush had all 5 of his cars in the chase 2459. cjs3872 posted: 02.01.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Especially at the plate tracks, NicoRosbergFan. Remember that he was in that crash at the beginning of the second lap of the Daytona 500, was in at least one of the crashes at Talladega and still finished in the top ten, and was a victim of Kurt Busch's boneheaded move in the Firecracker 400 last year, so there are three of those crashes in 2012, and he actually crashed in five of six plate races starting with the spring race at Talladega in 2011. Not a single one of those was his fault, which goes to your point. Now one of his problems is that he tends to run higher on the track than most, so he's going to hit the wall more often, and if that causes a caution, he may be listed on that site as having crashed, because that would put him in the accident report for the race, and that's probably what that's based off of. So we have to be very careful of how we deem a driver that crashes. Does it mean a driver hat crashes and has to go to the garage area, or does it mean a driver that's involved in an incient that brings out a caution, or even hits the wall and brings out a caution, because any of those things put the driver in the accident report for the race. And let's not forget that Jimmie Johnson has essentially crashed in six of the last eight plate races and suffered engine failure in one of the two plate races in which he was not involved in a crash during this period (he won the other one). Does that make him a driver that crashes a lot? Of course not. We have to be careful about who we label a crasher, but also, there are drivers that are willing to take more risks and those that aren't willing to take unnecesary chances. But Trevor Bayne is a driver that does hit the wall more than he should beause of the fact that he runs higher on the track than most drivers do, but very few of those can be called legitimate crashes. And he generally doesn't run into and over people and won't make the mistakes that we saw Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. make toward the end of last season, because Stenhouse will gamble more than he should, and that's going to catch up with a driver that does that sooner or later. 2460. Scott B posted: 02.01.2013 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me pose a question to the board about qualifying. There's been a lot of talk about going back to the old system for 2013, and a generally positive reaction. But there are some pretty significant differences, even though the 36-6-1 formula is familiar. First of all, this used to be based on two rounds of qualifying, not one. Secondly, only the first three races will be run using the previous season's points as a basis for provisionals, instead of the first five. Lastly, maybe most important, the number of provisionals available to a team seems to be unlimited, which takes a lot of pressure off the teams that are doing OK in points (hmm, kind of like the top-35 rule, eh?). So, how do you see this playing out? When week 4 hits, will there be any surprises in the DNQ list, or will it be business as usual? Will fans still like it, or will the complaints be back as soon as they realize this is far from the "fastest 43 in" that some fans call for? 2461. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some of you guys rely on David Smith far too much on this whole crash frequency debate. cjs and I have gone over this several times before, but since you brought it up, I'll go into it. Yes, Trevor Bayne has wrecked more times this past season than Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. But if all you did was look at the stat sheet to determine the quality of the drivers, you would think that Kevin Harvick and Martin Truex, Jr. were more on pace than Jimmie Johnson, Clint Bowyer, and Jeff Gordon just because they had more lead lap finishes than those three did. The reason why we criticize Stenhouse isn't because he wrecks a lot, it's because when he does wreck, it's due to him driving the car too hard and not using his head at certain points in a race. I can think of five races in 2012 off the top of my head when he had a bad finish because he wasn't using his head on the race track, and another two races when he wasn't using his head, but got away with it either because of skill or dumb luck. At Dover he was riding along in 2nd place with a huge gap over the 3rd place car when he gassed it too hard while exiting the turn and wound up hitting the wall and finishing 32nd. Then he screwed up in both Kentucky races with a top five car, overshooting his pit stall and running over his crew members in the first race, and then over-driving a turn and hitting the wall with the best car in the race because he was trying to overcome a pit road speeding penalty in the second race. Then at Montreal he tried to run over Jacques Villeneuve in a non-passing corner and wound up wrecking himself out of what would have been a surprising top five finish. And of course in the most recent race, the Cup race at Homestead, Stenhouse brought out the only legitimate caution of the race by driving the car too hard on one of the easiest tracks on the circuit, and was the only driver out of the race via crash damage. If that race is any indication, he'll be doing that a lot next season because the races are longer and the cars can't be driven too hard in the corners. Of course, he has had his moments of great driving skill/dumb luck that prevented what should have been a disastrous situation. We all remember his win at Kansas when he got two laps back via the wave around and lucky dog after he overdrove a corner following a pit stop and put both himself and Joey Logano into the wall, and then got the most undeserving win of the season due to NASCAR's welfare system and Kyle Busch's bad fuel mileage getting the best of him once again on the final lap. And then in the final Nationwide race, he displayed perhaps the greatest act of immaturity of the season (maybe of the decade) by muting his radio as his crew chief Mike Kelley was pleading with him to back off from the 2-/3-wide racing he was doing in the closing laps in order to protect the championship. He's lucky he didn't overdrive one of those corners in the closing laps at Homestead and cost he and his team the championship, especially considering that he did just that the next night in the Cup race. On the other hand, Trevor Bayne's wrecks are often the result of other drivers making mistakes or his equipment breaking down on him. He had a winning car at IRP '09 when Steve Wallace spun him out as the caution came out (which was followed by dad Rusty embarrassingly blaming the pace car for Steve's usual screw-ups). A few weeks later at Michigan, he got into Carl Edwards because Brad Coleman entered the corner too high while under neither Trevor, and the first two each were sent into the wall as a result. In the season-opener the following season, he got sent into the wall after a bad bump from Mike Bliss. Then at Dover, Steve Wallace did his best Danica Patrick impression by cutting across the track to avoid a wreck, and wound up clipping Trevor and sent him directly into the wrecked Paul Menard. Then he had a top five run going at Nashville when he and Justin Allgaier got together and his blew his left front tire, sending him into the wall, and then deja vu happened at Chicagoland a month later when Allgaier again cut Trevor's tire down and sent him into the wall. And at Watkins Glen that same year, he was the victim of Jason Leffler going off the track and bouncing off the outside wall, hooking Trevor into the wall himself. I can stop right here, but just to be sure I get this point driven through your guys' heads, I'll keep going. In the spring Nationwide race at Phoenix in 2011, he cut a right front tire down, which is often the case for him when he isn't being sent into the wall by other drivers. At Talladega, he was the victim of a wreck caused by Kurt Busch accidentally turning Brad Keselowski while tandem drafting down the backstretch. Then an opposite scenario happened at Daytona in July when Brad made a bad bump on Trevor while entering turn 3, and wound up sending him directly into the wall. Then in the Nationwide race at Atlanta, he was the victim of Justin Allgaier making a bone-headed move on teammate Reed Sorenson when Allgaier tried to stick six feet of car into a one foot hole in the middle of the corner, which sent Sorenson up the track into Trevor. And of course Trevor was the victim of Kevin Harvick trying to elevate his Intimidator status from being "a scab on Dale Earnhardt's butt" to "a whisker on Earnhardt's face" by intentionally hooking Trevor in the right rear at Richmond, cementing Harvick's legacy as a career douchebag. And then he suffered two blown tires at Homestead, one in the Nationwide race and one in the Cup race after he ran over some debris left by Landon Cassill after Cassill got tapped by Jamie McMurray and hit the wall. And finally, getting to the year 2012, Trevor was involved in two crashes at Daytona, one in the Nationwide race on the final lap (which Stenhouse was also a part of, although Trevor did cross the start/finish line), and again in the Daytona 500 after Danica Patrick decided to pull a Steve Wallace and cut across the track to avoid a wreck, which collected Trevor in the process. Then in July at Daytona, he was the victim of Kurt Busch losing patience with the single-file racing and trying to make a move when there was no room in one of the corners. At Indy, he was almost taken out by Joey Logano as Joey overdrove the corner, and at Michigan he blew a tire after his team decided not to change (I think) left sides during a round of pit stops. And then at Bristol, in his first Nationwide race in months, he was taken out by Austin Dillon after Austin decided to leave his head up his grandfather's ass prior to the start of the race (which featured Trevor actually confronting the cowering Dillon brother after the race). So there you have it, Trevor Bayne has indeed been in his share of wrecks over the past four seasons, probably more than Stenhouse has. But notice how the overwhelming majority of them were due to either a tire blowing out or another driver making a mistake and him paying the price for it. Just because he's been involved in more wrecks than Stenhouse, doesn't mean that he's more wreck-prone. It's like saying that James Buescher is more wreck-prone that John Wes Townley just because his crash frequency was higher. Of course Townley isn't going to wreck as much when he's well off the pace and is achieving a negative PEER rating with a first year Truck team. The only wreck that I know for a fact was Trevor's fault that could have been avoided was the week after his Daytona 500 victory in the Cup race at Phoenix when he cut in front of Travis Kvapil on the frontstretch. Other than that, I can't find any other race where a wreck was definitively his fault. On the other hand, I named just six (and almost seven) races this past season alone that were Stenhouse's fault and could have been avoided had he just used his head on the race track. So, in the end, Trevor Bayne has been involved in more wrecks, but Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. has been in more self-inflicted wrecks, and therefore is the more wreck-prone driver of the two. 2462. 83andJoe posted: 02.01.2013 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Is it just me or do these new cars look like they're on steroids. Goody's Dash cars on steroids, to be precise. >First of all, this used to be based on two rounds of qualifying, not one. The second round was K.O.'d around 2000, wasn't it? Several years were run with only one round but provisionals. And of course the fans will complain. Just look at the restrictor-plate debate. "Break up the packs" "Bring back the packs" "Oh no the packs are back!" (Then go watch the 1991 Pepsi 400 and see restricted cars able to pull away on their own, and also PASS on their own, and wonder what the heck happened...) 2463. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The funny thing is, David Smith just wrote an article called "Best Bets to Lead the Cup Series in Crashing". As for his Crash Frequency metric, he stated in the initial article when it was introduced that it would be used "wholly for pattern recognition". "Of course Townley isn't going to wreck as much when he's well off the pace and is achieving a negative PEER rating with a first year Truck team." I haven't figured out the PEER formula yet, but believe me, I am working on it. 2464. JG24FanForever posted: 02.01.2013 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What is the hardest Modern Era record to break? I'll name off a short list of records that will never be broken. Dale Earnhardt: 8 seasons with the best Average Finish(Jimmie Johnson has 1 career batting title) Jeff Gordon: 9 seasons with the most Races Led Most(This is 2 more than Petty in all-time ranking) Jeff Gordon: 17 consecuitve Top 5 finishes(This is as many as Tony Stewart has ever had in entire season) Jeff Gordon: 5 consecutive Dominant(winningest,1995-1999)season's(no one else has more than 2 consecutive with tie breakers included) Jimmie Johnson: 5 consecutive Championship's Jeff Gordon: 6 consecutive Road-Race wins(simply incredible) Jeff Gordon: 4 consecutive Southern 500 wins(My favorite Motorsports accomplishment) Dale Earnhardt: 3 sets of Back-Back Championships(is this greater than 5 straight?) Jeff Gordon: 3 consecutive 10+ wins seasons(Earnhardt and Johnson only had 1 a piece) Jeff Gordon: 26 Top 5's in a season(1998) Jeff Gordon: 30 Top 10's in a season(2007) Jeff Gordon: 4 consecutive seasons with the most Races Led Most(2001-2004) Jeff Gordon: 298 Top 5's and counting(2 away from being the first Modern driver to reach 300) Jeff Gordon: 9 consecutive Crown Jewel winning season's(1994-2002,no one else has a streak longer than 4 year's) Jeff Gordon: 11 consecutive Triple+ win season's(1995-2005) Jeff Gordon: 4 season's with the Championship and The Most wins and a Crown Jewel win(no one else has more than 2) Dave Marcis: 99 DNQ's(Dope Cope has 85) Bobby Labonte: 324 consecutive winless races and counting(longest ever winless streak for a Champion) Bobby Allison: 30 consecutive Races Led Bobby Allison: 4343 laps led in a season(1972) Darrell Waltrip: 24 wins in 2 years's(1981-1982) Jeff Gordon: 33 wins in 3 year's(1996-1998) Jeff Gordon: 40 wins in 4 year's(1995-1998,1996-1999) Jeff Gordon: 47 wins in 5 year's(1995-1999,as many as Tony Stewart's entire career) Jeff Gordon: 87 wins and counting(Johnson will not reach Gordon) Jeff Gordon: 152 Top 2 finishes and counting Gordon,Gordon,Gordon. 2465. Paul posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A few of those records that Gordon currently holds could be broken by Kyle Busch if he ever gets his head on straight for an entire season. I think Kyle has the talent and the team to rack up 26 top fives and/or 30 top tens in a season. Unfortunately, it's not a matter of "when" for when Kyle reaches his full potential, it's "if". "Jeff Gordon: 17 consecutive Top 5 finishes(This is as many as Tony Stewart has ever had in entire season)" Just like what I said about Kyle, Tony Stewart has never reached his full potential either, which is scary considering he has three Cup titles and more wins than the likes of Bill Elliott and Dale Jarrett, along with the Labonte brothers' combined win total, and each of then have won championships. If Jeff Gordon has openly stated that Stewart is a more talented driver than him (which he said back in '99, Stewart's rookie year), there's no excuse for why Stewart isn't unanimously listed as one of the ten greatest NASCAR drivers of all-time. If anyone else, I'd say they've had a hell of a career. But this is Tony Stewart, one of the greatest American race car drivers of all-time. If he can't get more top fives in a season than his less naturally talented counterpart can consecutively, he's a massive underachiever in my book. That being said, you've got to give Jeff Gordon for at least reaching his potential. Maybe not his full potential because he lost the '96 title (he didn't choke, but he had too many finishes of 31st or worse that season), had too much turmoil with injuries and personal debacles from '02-'10, and never took it upon himself to be the team leader at HMS after Evernham and Labonte left, but I'd say he's reached 85-95% of his total potential as a race car driver, and that's all I can ask for. 2466. JG24FanForever posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Maybe not his full potential because he lost the '96 title (he didn't choke, but he had too many finishes of 31st or worse that season)" He lost 61 points to Labonte in the Daytona 500 after getting knocked into the wall after just a few laps. You could say that he lost the Championship in the first race, and it had nothing to do with him making a mistake. He was 275 points behind Earnhardt,the point's leader,after 2 races and lost the title by just 37 points. People often overlook Gordon's 1996 because he didn't score 37 more points, but you can't deny his wins and his overall production. Wins: Darlington sweep!,Dover Sweep,The "Nightmare" Talldega race win,His first of 6 Pocono wins, and wins at ALL FOUR(the last year of Four)Short Tracks! The Championship isn't more valuable than winning this much at this many tracks. Points lost to Terry Labonte due to Mechanical failures and bad luck: Daytona 500: 61 Rockingham1: 28 Spring Talladega: 96 New Hampshire: 84 Brickyard 400: 113 Fall Charlotte 110 Grand Total: 492 And he lost the title by 37. 2467. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'ver tried to post the same comment four times, and it hasn't worked yet. 2468. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon is also the only active driver (I'm pretty sure) to reach 5.000 PEER for a season--and he's done it three times. In 1996, his PEER was 5.339, 1997's was 5.391, and in 1998, it was...(drumroll, please) 6.424!!! Jimmie Johnson, Tony Stewart, Carl Edwards, and Kyle Busch have never hit 5.000 for a season. I gleaned these nuggets from a FREE David Smith article about Herb Thomas. I encourage you to read it, especially DSFF, because he has made the argument that Thomas is a "lost treasure" over NASCAR's history. 2469. David posted: 02.01.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't post the link, so screw it. Go to MotorsportsAnalytics.com, click on "Archives", go to "2012 Season", scroll down to "Post-Charlotte (All-Star), Pre-Charlotte (600)", and then click on "A Statistical Appreciation of Herb Thomas". 2470. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that JG24, but Jeff didn't have today's welfare system in place at the fall Rockingham race in '96. He lost a lap early in that race, and after making adjustments, he got the car up to speed with the leaders, but couldn't get back on the lead lap and wound up finishing 12th, the first car one lap down. Had he finished 3rd, which is where his teammate Terry Labonte finished, he would have gained an extra 38 points, one more point than he lost by. Add in the five points that Labonte would have lost for being passed by Jeff, and he wins the title by six points, which would have been the smallest Cup championship point margin in NASCAR history under the Latford system. Of course, this is all hypothetical and we don't know whether Jeff would have finished 3rd, 1st, or maybe still finish 12th with the current welfare system in place, but it is interesting to think about what could have happened had the current rules package been in place. It just goes to show you how difficult it was to dig yourself out of a hole back in those days. There weren't many "Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. at Kansas 2012" moments back then, I can tell you that. 2471. JG24FanForever posted: 02.02.2013 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,don't overlook Chad Knaus and his jammed air gun that cost Gordon two laps in the finale at Atlanta, and he made up both laps and led 59 circuits and finished 3rd. 2472. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2013 - 1:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The most unbreakable record is Dale's 10 consecutive Daytona qualifier wins, sweeping ever race in the 90's. That will never be APPROACHED, let alone broken. I doubt we'll ever see 4 in a row again. 2473. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) One record that I would love to see be set is for somebody to sweep all four points-paying restrictor plate races in a season. To this day, only two drivers have ever won three restrictor plate races since Talladega opened in 1969, and only one in the modern era when the Twin 125s/150s no longer counted towards the championship, and they were Pete Hamilton in 1970 and Dale Earnhardt in 1990. Of course, we all know that Earnhardt was one turn away from sweeping the 1990 restrictor plate points races, and would have been 100% in the plate races he participated in as he also won his Duel race (he wasn't in the Shootout). I can think of five other instances where a driver came close to winning three out of four. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. might have won three in 2004 had the Aaron's 499 not ended under caution. Jimmie Johnson would have won three in 2006 (you know it's his year if Jimmie Johnson is winning the plate races) had Brian Vickers not clipped him down the backstretch in the fall Talladega race. Jeff Gordon might have won the July Daytona race in 2007 had Jamie McMurray not blocked him (like he did this last Talladega race) and caused him to check up and lose a couple positions with about two laps to go, as Jeff had the fastest car at the end. Kevin Harvick might have won three in 2010 had he either changed lanes on the backstretch and went with the faster line, or if Carl Edwards had stayed behind him with two laps to go. And Matt Kenseth, who had a car that could have won all four plate races in 2012, should have won the July race at Daytona, but was passed on the final lap after Tony Stewart got a huge push from Kasey Kahne down the backstretch. I think that is the ultimate triple crown/grand slam accomplishment in NASCAR, just because only one driver has ever accomplished it in the modern era (and two have since Talladega opened in 1969). Winning three out of four plate races in a season seems difficult enough, considering how no driver has done so in 23 years. But for a driver to win all four, until someone has a car as strong as Earnhardt in '90 or Kenseth did last year, I don't think it's going to happen. By the way, I found it interesting how in 2000, two pairs of drivers with the same first name each won a plate race. Two Dales (Jarrett and Earnhardt) won the Daytona 500 and Winston 500, respectively, and two Jeffs (Gordon and Burton) won the Talladega 500 and Pepsi 400, respectively. That also seems highly unlikely to happen again. The only pairing that seems likely to happen again at this point would be if the two Jeffs each won a plate race in the same year, but they'd need a pair of Davids, Joe(y)s, or Michaels to each win a plate race as well, which seems about as likely as Dope Cope (love it) winning another race. 2474. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 3:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Stewart-Haas Racing is developing a new test team, with veteran crew chief David Hyder overseeing the project. I don't know whether this test team will compete in any races or just partake in test sessions now that NASCAR has somewhat lifted the ban on testing at tracks that are run in that team's series, but given the fact that Scott Riggs was rumored a few months ago as being a possible 4th SHR driver in 2013, it's possible that SHR could field a 4th car in select races this season, possibly on tracks that also have races in the Chase like Loudon and Charlotte. Also, here's a fun list of which teams several NASCAR drivers and crew chiefs are pulling for in the Super Bowl: - Kurt Busch (Bears fan): Didn't pick a winner, but is hoping for a blowout so that fans will be mad about the Super Bowl and are looking forward to the Daytona 500. - Kyle Busch (Broncos fan): 49ers [1] - Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (Redskins fan): Undecided (what else is new?) - Chase Elliott: 49ers [2] - Jeff Gordon (49ers fan): 49ers [3] - Alan Gustafson: 49ers [4] - Kevin Harvick (49ers fan): 49ers [5] - Jimmie Johnson: Undecided - Kasey Kahne (Seahawks fan): Seahawks in next year's Super Bowl (I can drink to that) - Matt Kenseth (Packers fan): 49ers [6] - Brad Keselowski (Michigan Wolverines fan): Ravens [1] - Chad Knaus: 49ers [7] - Travis Pastrana (Ravens fan): Ravens [2] - Danica Patrick (Bears fan): Undecided (...) So the final vote count is 49ers, 7; undecided, 3; Ravens, 2; no answer, 1; and Seahawks, 1. Two weeks ago I was undecided, but now I find myself pulling for the 49ers, partially because I like the 49ers (in spite of Jim Harbaugh as the head coach), but mostly because of this Super Bowl being all about Ray Lewis and his legacy and his leadership and his greatness and him possibly retiring as a champion and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Put a sock in it! There's more than one player in this game on Sunday, and I'd say most of them didn't use PEDs to come back from an injury the way I suspect Ray and Terrell Suggs did this year. I don't pull for teams that cheat, and I'd rather see the Ravens end their season the same way the Patriots (another team that cheated) did five years ago and suffer a humiliating loss on the biggest stage of them all. 2475. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's be blunt. Ray Lewis and Terrell Suggs both doped their way to health, AND Lewis is a murderer. It's 49ers time. I'm sick of all these analysts saying "Kaepernick won't be able to handle the pressure." Did you see him IN Atlanta? Cool as a cucumber. Sorry, but if you handle high pressure that well, you can handle intense pressure just as well. 2476. David posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's the link: http://motorsportsanalytics.com/free-articles/2012-0524-thomas-gordon.html 2477. jabber1990 posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) in a professional sporting event do they stop play for commercials? or does the game continue with a tape-delay on the TV? 2478. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2013 - 8:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I, too, would like to see Ray Lewis' career end in massive failure of a Super Bowl loss and deer antler jokes. He is WAY too much a self promoter, everything he does is calculated. Plus I like Colin Kap a lot. Vernon Davis has grown up a lot into somebody to aspire to, Michael Crabtree is fun to watch, and Randy is Randy, which is mostly fine by me. Plus a San Fran Super Bowl win is bound to bring out a Joe Cool cameo at some point. At the very least we will see a lot of awesome highlights of him shredding defenses. 2479. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2013 - 8:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) jabber, they stop the action for commercials. They delay a "live" broadcast during NASCAR qualifying, where they once went to a commercial break at Loudon. Ryan Newman was going on track to qualify. I timed the commercial break: 3.5 minutes. When they came back, Newman was still on his warmup lap. 2480. jabber1990 posted: 02.02.2013 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Superbowl XLVII: the battle for moms love and if the 49's win they can hang Ray Lewis' head in their locker room 2481. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I too like Colin Kaepernick. Even though I think the media loves him a little too much for a guy who has only started about half a season so far, he hasn't allowed success get to his head and remains a humble guy, which is always a win in my book. I loved watching Michael Crabtree back when he played for Texas Tech. Even though I'm an Oklahoma Sooners fan (they play in the same conference), I really enjoyed seeing the Graham Harrell/Michael Crabtree combination back in 2008. Seeing them beat the Texas Longhorns with a game-winning touchdown was probably the highlight of that season for me, after Texas beat OU earlier in the season. And I've already stated how much I love Randy Moss, and I hope he can contribute to the 49ers winning the Super Bowl tomorrow so he can have a ring on his resume. Moss was one of just two Patriots players I was pulling for to get a ring in 2007, with the other being Junior Seau. For all of you NFL Films fans out there, you've probably heard that soundbite of Ray Lewis tackling a Raiders player (presumably on 3rd down) and then yelling at him "Get off the field! Get off the field!" There's a good part of me that would love to hear some 49ers players yelling "Get off the field!" to Ray whenever they score, and again when the game is over. I love how he is loved by the media after all the stuff he has done in his life, almost as if he has never done anything wrong, and they portray him as the most perfect person in football. And I just know he LOVES the attention that he gets. What other football player would get on his knees and start praying and thanking the Lord while cameras are around him (like he did after the Ravens beat the Patriots)? He says that it's all about the team, but really it's all about Ray Lewis, and he embraces that idea and sheepishly tries to brush it off. But I guess it's okay because at the end of the day, he thanks God for all of his and his team's success. Schmuck. Also, I've never really cared for athletes who announce during the season that they are retiring, because all of a sudden the the focus turns to "What can Player X's team do to help win Player X a championship?", rather than just focusing on the team itself. I didn't like it when Mark Martin and Rusty Wallace did it in 2005 (especially since Mark has never left), and I didn't like it during Brett Favre's four "I'm done after this season" plans from '07-'10. I'll always remember in 2005, while Mark and Rusty were getting all the attention, that Ricky Rudd sort of quietly said "Oh by the way, I'm taking the year off in '06. See ya!" That's my kind of guy. Doesn't make his retirement bigger than the rest of the sport and quietly rides off into the sunset. That's also one reason why I love Tony Gonzalez, as the media is the reason why his alleged retirement is well-known. He didn't say "I'm retiring after the 2012 season," he just sort of said "This might be my last year" late in the season, and the media ran with it. That's just another reason why I'm looking forward to Ray Ray's retirement. He could have just said to his coaches and GM Ozzie Newsome "This year's probably my last year," but instead he went public and addressed it to the media that 2012 will be his final season. I hope he enjoys this parade that he's been given, because he has only strengthened the fact that while he loves his team, his star must always shine brightest. 2482. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but Packers wide receiver Donald Driver will officially announce his retirement on Wednesday after a great 14-year career. He was always one of my favorite Packer players, being one of the best wide receivers in the league for some time while being true class all along the way. I'm a little sad that the rumors of him coming to the Vikings for one season won't come true, but I think it's pretty cool that he played his whole career with one team, even if it was with a division rival. He'll definitely be inducted into the Packers Ring of Honor some day, and in my opinion, he should be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame one day. God speed, Donald Driver. Enjoy the fruits of your labor. Speaking of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, today at around 5:30 ET we'll finally find out which players will go to the HOF as the class of 2013. I hope Cris Carter finally breaks through that glass ceiling and goes where he belongs, which is into the Hall of Fame. And even though this is his first year on the ballot, I would love to see Larry Allen be inducted this year just because of my memories of watching the Cowboys and always playing as them in my Madden video games for years. Along with them I would also love to see Tim Brown, Andre Reed, and Eddie DeBartolo be inducted, as well as both senior members Dave Robinson and Curley Culp. I know it won't happen because we'll be lucky to have one wide receiver inducted, let alone three, but that's who I want to see be inducted. Also, today we'll finally find out who wins the NFL MVP. Will it be "All Day," or will it be WARRIOR!!!!? You all know who I'm pulling for, and as entertaining as Warrior would be, I can't take another Peyton Manning/Tom Brady MVP selection. 2483. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Donald Driver really doesn't have a shot for going into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Donald will be going to the Green Bay Packer Hall of Fame though. I thought he was a great player, but he wasn't the best Green Bay Packer Wide Receiver I seen. It boils to down to 2 things for going to canton. Donald really doesn't the stats for going to Canton as a Wide Receiver based are the era he played. His receptions, yards and touchdown catches are low in his era. Donald to me was a top 5 to 10 Wide Receiver in his era. The other thing is Sterling Sharpe actually was the better Wide Receiver than Donald Driver was. I saw both players are in their prime.The only reason Donald more yards and receptions was the length of his career. Some people in the past claimed Brett Favre made Sterling Sharpe, but that completely false. Sterling Sharpe already was a 2 time pro bowl Wide Receiver by the time Brett Favre joined the packers in 1992. Sterling Sharpe already was an all pro Wide Receiver in 1989 with Don Majkoski as his starting quarterback matter of fact. Sterling's Productivity in 1990 and 1991 was really caused by offensive line and Quarterback problems. Don Majkoski torn his rotator cuff in 1990 against the Cardinals and wasn't the same passer in 1991. Green Bay had some bad Quarterback play in 1990 and 1991 from Anthony Dilweg, the late Blair Keil, and Mike Tomczak. Mike Tomczak was a good backup, but was not starting material as a quarterback. Sterling Sharpe really the 2nd best Wide Receiver in the league behind Jerry Rice in the time period he played. Sterling was better than Cris Carter, Michael Irvin,Tim Brown, Michael Irvin, Andre Rison, Andre Reed, Henry Ellard, Art Monk, Gary Clark, Drew Hill, Herman Moore, Irving Fryer, Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, Anthony Miller. Tony Martin, James Lofton (from 1988 to 1993, Brian Blades, Webster Slaughter, Al Toon, Haywood Jeffries, Eric Martin, and Ernest Givins. All Wide Receivers I mentioned was when Sterling played. Sterling's problem was he was not media friendly as a player and only played for 7 years before his career ending neck injury happened. He was in the Gale Sayers and Terrell Davis Category. Sterling was a great player that had his career ended shorter than it should have been. I did an excel sheet even for comparing Wide Receivers that played in the league from 1988 to 1994 for Receiving yards, Receptions, and Touchdown catches. What I did add was their career stats from 1988 to 1994 to each player than compare them. All this means I didn't use all of Michael irvin's stats because I only used the stats that Michael Irvin had from 1988 to 1994 and did the same other to other Wide Receivers such as Jerry Rice. Jerry Rice was the best for receptions, yards, and touchdown receiptions from 1988 to 1994, but Sterling Sharpe was the 2nd best in receptions and Touchdown catches in that period. Sterling also was only behind Jerry Rice and Henry Ellard for Receiving yards. Even if you don't compare Sterling's stats , Sterling was scary good. He could go deep, but also did short and intermediate routes. I am saying this before his turf toe injury in 1993. Sterling was a guy that broke tackles and made plays despite even being tripled team. Sterling played with a worse supporting cast than Donald did. There is no telling what Sterling could have done if he had a full career and had the help Jerry Rice had from 1988 to 1994 Jerry Rice in Sterling's time was at his peak matter of fact. I am talking the Jerry Rice before Terrell Owens and before Jerry was a Raider. Jerry was great before Sharpe was drafted and after Sterling retired, but Jerry Rice to me was at his his best from 1988 to 1994. Jerry was at his physical best from 1988 to 1994 matter of fact. Jerry Rice had Brent Jones, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Tim Rathman, Ricky Watters as other players that defenses had to plan for outside of the Quarterbacks the 49ers had from 1988 to 1994. Sterling Sharpe had Jackie Harris, Edger Bennett, Brent Fullwood, Robert Brooks, Ed West, and Perry Kemp from 1988 to 1994. Mark Chmura wasn't a factor before 1995. Sterling had Mark Clayton as Teammate, but Mark was passed his prime already in 1993. Perry Kemp was a number 2 Wide Receiver by default and really couldn't get pressure off Sterling. Green Bay Really didn't have a decent running game when Sterling Sharpe was there. 2484. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Larry Allen, Cris Carter, Jonathan Ogden, Bill Parcells, Warren Sapp, Dave Robinson, and Curley Culp are your Pro Football Hall of Fame inductees for the class of 2013. Congrats to all seven inductees, including three first year nominees (Allen, Ogden, and Sapp), and especially to Cris Carter who FINALLY got over the hump and will take his rightful place in Canton. 2485. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cris Carter finally got his well deserved spot in the HOF. Should have happened 3 years ago, but at least he is there now. 2486. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All I have to saw is wow for 3 of the picks. Based on the last 2 years at Wide Receiver for the Hall of Fame, I thought it would have been Reed not Carter. Cris Carter wasn't in the top 10 for the 2011 and 2012 class. Cris Carter should have gotten in years ago though. Warren Sapp shocked me because he didn't seem like a first ballot hall of fame player to me because of the amount of peak years to me. Out of the defensive linemen, I thought it would have been Michael Strahan. Bill Parcells surprised me because I thought the players on the ballot were strong enough for not having a non player in. The 5 player modern players I thought were going in were Allen, Ogden, Strahan, Bettis, and Andre Reed. 2487. cjs3872 posted: 02.02.2013 - 6:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And also, and ths is not to knock Parcells, who won two Super Bowls with the Giants and got to another with the Patriots, if there was a non-player to get inducted, I would much rather have seen someone like Art Modell, Eddie DeBartolo, or Don Coryell get in. Modell because of all of what he did away from owning the Browns/Ravens as much as his accomplishmets as an owner, DeBartolo as the first owner to win five Super Bowls, and Coryell for his offensive advancements. In fact, quite a number of teams still run what Coryell ran in the 70s and 80s with the Cadinals and most famously, the Chargers. What hurts Coryell is his shabby playoff record of 3-6, including two AFC Championship Game losses and a dreadful loss at home to a banged up Houston team in 1979, when his Chargers were the best team in the NFL (they crushed both Super Bowl participants in successive weeks by a combined score of 75-23). But the 1999 Rams, 2006 Colts, and 2009 Saints all won the Super Bowl with offenses derived from Don Coryell's offenses, and other teams like the Patriots, Broncos, and Falcons used it to capture either the #1 or #2 seed in their respective conference this year. The two coaches that furthered the concept of offensive football more than anyone else in he last 40 years are Bill Walsh and Don Coryell. Walsh is rightfully in the Hall of Fame, and Coryell should be there with him. The only differce is that Walsh has three Super Bowl titles and Coryell never even got to the Super Bowl, and that's the only thing keeping Coryell out of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, as far as I'm concerned. Also, the writers keep saying that the fact that there are so many of Vince Lombardi's Packers in the Hall of Fame is what's keeping Jerry Kramer out got even weaker when Dave Robinson, yet another of Lombardi's Packers, got selected for enshrinement today. And while Cris Carter got selcted, there's something wrong with that to me. After all, Andre Reed was a major contributor to the Buffalo Bills team that got to four consecutive Super Bowls, and had two very good Super Bowls (XXV and XXVII), was not selected, and it's still a crime that neither Cliff Branch or Drew Pearson can even sniff the Hall of Fame. To take nothing away from Carter and Reed, they were not as clutch as either Pearson or Branch were, as they saved their best for the big moments. Two of Branch's best games were Super Bowls XV and XVIII (particularly Super Bowl XV), and while Pearson was not as good in his three Super Bowl appearances, he was, with the exception of the duo in Pittsburgh, the best money receiver of his era, and often quality rather than quantity, should count more in the overall sceme of things. If it were me, Branch and Pearson would have been in long ago. 2488. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I seen on who will be on the ballot for the first time next year, I actually think think 3 or4 people that didn't into the Hall of Fame for 2013 as finalists, will be voted in for 2014. I am saying that Because Derrick Brooks is eligible for the 2014 class and I don't see any reason why he can't get in. Zach Thomas final season was in 2008 also, but he'll be in after Junior Seau. Marvin Harrison is eligible for the 2014 class, but I think their be putting in Reed, or Brown first. Kevin Carter and La'roi Glover will be eligible for the fist time next year, but I don't see Kevin Carter getting. La'Roi Glover to me wouldn't get next year since Strahan didn't get in this year. Warrick Dunn and Shaun Alexander will be eligible next year, but I don't see either of them getting in for 2014. Shaun doesn't have a chance to get in at all. I think Shaun Alexander's teammates Walt Jones and Steve Hutchinson will voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame once they are eligible though. I think Warrick can get in as a senior committee pick. Warrick doesn't the Touchdowns as Shaun Alexander, but that is cause by having Mike Alstott as a teammate in his Tampa Bay years and having some of his carries taken away from him. 2489. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with cjs3872 about Kramer and Don Coryell. When I saw Dave Robinson on the Ballot as Senior committee Nominee, I thought there would be no excuse for Jerry Kramer for being voted in if Dave Robinson gets in voted. cjs3872 did forgot to mention that his proteges included Joe Gibbs, John Madden, Bill Walsh, and Ernie Zampese. Joe Gibbs won 3 super bowls. What Joe did was modify Don's offense to suit his personnel. Ernie Zampese was the offensive coordinator of the 1995 cowboys. 2490. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congrats to Robert Griffin, III, the 2012 Offensive Rookie of the Year. 2491. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RG3! RG3! RG3! 3 for RG3! 2492. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.02.2013 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whew! 3 state Gorilla Press Slamming spree averted. Congrats to All Day. 2493. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.02.2013 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I will go on the 3 state gorilla press slamming spress if he doesn't get comeback player of the year as well. 2494. cjs3872 posted: 02.02.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Packerfan4ver, I thought Bill Walsh was a disciple of Paul Brown, not Don Coryell. In fact, Walsh was an assistant under Brown in Cincinnati and was crushedabout not getting the Bengals head coaching job after Brown retired following the 1975 season. That decision haunted Brown fo years, as both times his Bengals appeared in the Super Bowl, they lost to Walsh's 49ers. In fact, other than using the pass, Walsh's scheme and Coryell's scheme had virtually nothing in common. Walsh ran a sort passing game, while Coryell's offense was a deep passing game that relied on low-percentage, high-impact passes that could destroy even the best defenses, much like the Raiders and the Gilman-era Chargers passed. But you're right about the discpiles of Coryell, and you can add Norv Turner to that list, because he's also a branch of the Coryell passing tree, through his tutilage under Ernie Zampese in Dallas in the early 90s. Even the Baltimore Ravens, which in the past was one of the most conservative teams offensively, mostly because of their defense, is using a derivitive of the Coryell downfield passing offnese, something that has gotten them to the Super Bowl. 2495. 18fan posted: 02.02.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Peyton won comeback player of the year and Peterson won MVP and Offensive Player of the Year. J.J. Watt won defensive player of the year. 2496. Paul posted: 02.02.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell yeah! Adrian Peterson has been named both MVP and Offensive Player of the Year. Well deserved after he pretty much put the Vikings on his back and led them to the playoffs. The team got hot towards the end of the season, especially in their wins against the Texans and Packers, but for the majority of the season it was "All Day" leading the charge. Congrats. Oh, and Peyton Manning has been named Comeback Player of the Year. Yawn. Whatever, let the baby have his bottle. Individual awards are all he's good for anyways. 2497. David posted: 02.02.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No one mentioned this, but yesterday was the 10th anniversary of the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. And the Challenger disintegrated on the 28th of January, 27 years ago. Rest in peace to all astronauts on both missions. 2498. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, While Bill Walsh was under Paul Brown, that is not where he got his start from. Bill Walsh actually had roots with Al Davis. Bill Walsh was an assistant coach under Al Davis and was trained in the vertical passing game. Remember that Al Davis was a head coach besides being a team owner. Al Davis himself worked under Sid Gillman and that means Bill Walsh is actually under the Sid Gillman coaching tree despite how odd that sounds since Don Coryell was under Sid Gillman's coaching tree also. Bill created the west offense because of Virgil Carter. Bill went to the short passing game because took advantage of the personnel the Bengals had. 2499. Packerfan4ver posted: 02.02.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I actually remember the Challenger disintegrated. I was a kid then and I recalled seeing it on television. I actually was at the hospital when the space Shuttle Columbia disaster happened and heard about it while I was waiting for my blood work. 2500. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 5:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Glad for All Day. 2500! 2501. Anonymous posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I remember the Challenger too. I was driving for an air freight company at the time. Waiting to make a pick up when I heard about it on the radio. Very sad day. Now I live about 20 minutes from the Christa McAuliffe planetarium in Concord, NH. It is a very cool place to check out. 2502. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 9:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Time for Ray Lewis's funeral at the hands of Colin Kaepernick, Frank Gore, and the 49ers receiving core. 2503. cjs3872 posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was in school when the Challenger disaster occurred. In fact, the Challenger disaster was the main reason why the 1985 Chicago Bears are the one Super Bowl that never really got a chance to celebrate their title, because the Challenger disaster occurred just two days after their crushing win over the Patriots in Super Bowl XX, so that catastrophe cost the Bears a chance to really celebrate their only Super Bowl title to date. Also, Geoff Bodine and his team remebered the fallen astronauts by calling their 1986 Daytona 500 car the "Stars and Stripes", and of course we know what happned. Bodine led half the race on route to the biggest vistory of his career in a race whose impact wasn't known then, since it was a largely unknown driver (Bodine) and an upstart team (Hendrick Motorsports) that won that race, but in retrospect, that 1986 Daytona 500 ended up being one of the most important races in Daytona 500 history for it's future impact on the sport, because it was the first big win for Hendrick Motorsports. And Packerfan4ver, I'll take you back even further. Al Davis was an assistant coach under Sid Gillman, as was Chuck Noll, with those early Charger teams. Then Davis moved on to become the coach of the Raiders, where he eventually took over everything, but I never knew that Bill Walsh was ever an asssistant under Davis. Ironically, Walsh's 49ers became the exact opposite of what the Raiders stood for, so much so that Walsh once said that the most bitter loss of his career was a 1988 loss his 49ers suffered to the Raiders, which was in a 3-game losing streak that also included losses to Denver and the Cardinals (ugh!). And I didn't know that Walsh created his short passing offense for Virgil Carter, considering they always ran the ball back then (the early Bengals were always among the league leaders in rushing). I always thought he devised that for Ken Anderson, who used that to win several NFL passing titles and the 1981 NFL MVP award. 2504. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Then in early 1997, when Jim McMahon was a member of the Packers' Super Bowl team that beat the Patriots, he wore his Chicago Bears jersey when the Packers visited the White House. This of course drew criticism from Packers fans because one of their players wore a rival team's jersey for their Super Bowl celebratory visit to the White House. McMahon did this because 11 years earlier (11 years to the day, to be exact), the Bears' White House visit was cancelled because of the Challenger disaster. The '85 Bears finally got their White House visit in October 2011, but by then two star players had passed away. Hall of Fame running back Walter Payton died in 1999 from cancer, and Pro Bowl safety Dave Duerson died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound in February of that year, having suffered much of the same injuries as Junior Seau. I almost wonder if that was McMahon's way of getting back at the Packers after what one of their players did to him during a game in 1986, the year after his Pro Bowl/Super Bowl-winning season. During a game in 1986, Packers defensive lineman Charles Martin grabbed McMahon from behind a good 2-3 seconds after he had already thrown the ball, picked him up, and slammed him directly on his sore right shoulder. Martin was ejected from the game and was handed a 2-game suspension, the first multi-game suspension in modern NFL history, and McMahon missed the rest of the season because of his injured shoulder, with a defense that actually gave up fewer points than the '85 Bears in the team's first season without Buddy Ryan. The effects of this injury were still felt during his remaining two seasons with the Bears (along with his increased playing weight), as he couldn't get the Bears out of the second round of the '87 playoffs against the Redskins with a team that was thought to be a Super Bowl team (the Redskins went on to win the Super Bowl), and then had the misfortune of facing a 49ers team with both Joe Montana and Jerry Rice on offense in his first season without Walter Payton in the backfield in the '88 playoffs (which wound up being Montana and Rice's first Super Bowl season together). I know that McMahon's main reasons for wearing his Bears jersey for the Super Bowl XXXI celebratory White House visit, but I wonder if there was some animosity held towards the Packers on the part of McMahon after that injury ended his '86 season. With a great running game and defense that carried the team on their backs and in some ways were actually better than the great 1985 Bears team, perhaps the '86 Bears team could have repeated as Super Bowl champions that season and threatened the 49ers' dynasty for another season (until Payton's retirement) had McMahon's injury not taken place. 2505. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know that McMahon's main reasons for wearing his Bears jersey for the Super Bowl XXXI celebratory White House visit," I forgot to add "were because of the Challenger disaster cancelling the '85 Bears' White House visit 11 years earlier." 2506. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it kickoff already? Let's do it to it!!! I'm really looking forward to next year's Super Bowl at Metlife Stadium and will pray for snow before and during the game. Poor Flacco and QBs like him will have to man up. 2507. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Some of you guys rely on David Smith far too much on this whole crash frequency debate." Even though I'm writing for him, I can agree with this. If you're going to attempt to do this you have to make a judgment call on who caused each wreck, but nobody wants to do that publicly anymore so the victims of a wreck are judged as harshly as the perpetrators (Terry Labonte would probably get two black marks on his record for the '99 Bristol race just because he was wrecked twice...) It's like how some high schools suspend people who get beaten up in a fight because the school doesn't want to make a judgment call on who the perpetrator was and who the victim was... I hope crash frequency as he calculates it is not a component factor in PEER. I'm not a big fan of his relevance statistic either... I know it's supposed to reflect team relevance more than driver relevance but it implies all drivers who finish in the top half of the field were relevant in a race. Relevance is running up front, dominating, taking the lead via natural lead changes, etc... At least that's how I would use that word. If I were going to calculate something similar to that, it would be the percentage of lead lap cars beaten for races the driver finished on the lead lap. That would more accurately measure top-level consistency. Somebody who just coasts around on the back half of the lead lap most of the time because charity rules make it hard to lose a lap unless you have bad luck (cough RCR cough) should not be considered more relevant than a zero or hero type like Kyle Busch. Relevance as Smith defines it pretty much equates to luck. When David Ragan had his season when he completed more laps than anyone else, I'm going to bet he was high on the relevance chart, but he wasn't relevant in the races. And any statistic that would attempt to argue that Bobby Labonte in 2000 had the best season ever seems a little misguided to me. I think all it means is he had the most consistent team ever or that he just had less bad luck than any other champion ever. I am a fan of the rest of his statistics, however... "If Jeff Gordon has openly stated that Stewart is a more talented driver than him (which he said back in '99, Stewart's rookie year), there's no excuse for why Stewart isn't unanimously listed as one of the ten greatest NASCAR drivers of all-time." I don't think it's just Stewart underachieving. I think he's only ever had one TRULY great crew chief (Darian Grubb). What has Greg Zipadelli done without Stewart? Not much. I'm not really sold on Steve Addington either, who has not shown any kind of consistency as a crew chief either (maybe it's just that he's had the Busch brothers and Stewart as his elite talent, but I'm not sure I buy that...I view him more like Robin Pemberton, where most of his drivers have done something better with some other crew chief). I do think Grubb will be viewed as a pretty legendary crew chief at the end of his career (winning the Daytona 500 on his debut with Jimmie Johnson, aiding Tony Stewart to the title after he was fired, probably winning a title with Denny Hamlin in the near future...) but I'd rate him about on the level with Robbie Loomis. Has Stewart had anybody even close to Evernham? And he's raced in a period with many more contenders than Gordon has (if Tony Stewart had started in 1993 with the same thing Gordon had, who's to say he wouldn't have been just as dominant? Stewart has been more dominant than Gordon since 1999, and Gordon didn't have to compete against Stewart during his peak years...) Yeah, cjs and Paul will criticize this but most of the other championship contenders at the time of Gordon's ascent had lost their edge while Stewart competed against many more drivers with greater natural talent at their peaks who arguably didn't live up to their peak potential. Maybe they were both pretty shallow periods for different reasons... I think there's more to that than "Stewart chokes" when comparing him to Jeff Gordon. I'll grant 2006, but what other year besides that has he really been a contender and choked? Even Jimmie Johnson has blown more seasons than that. Stewart's never had a Chad Knaus-level talent either. "To this day, only two drivers have ever won three restrictor plate races since Talladega opened in 1969, and only one in the modern era when the Twin 125s/150s no longer counted towards the championship, and they were Pete Hamilton in 1970 and Dale Earnhardt in 1990." It's debatable whether the races in 1970 really count as restrictor plate races since not all cars used them. 2508. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The second round was K.O.'d around 2000, wasn't it? Several years were run with only one round but provisionals. And of course the fans will complain. Just look at the restrictor-plate debate. "Break up the packs" "Bring back the packs" "Oh no the packs are back!" (Then go watch the 1991 Pepsi 400 and see restricted cars able to pull away on their own, and also PASS on their own, and wonder what the heck happened...)" Yes, second round qualifying was cancelled in 2000. It had been used sparingly since 1995 when they locked in the top 25 on the first day of qualifying instead of the top 20, which was probably a mistake. I would prefer to see two rounds of qualifying return with no provisionals. I'm not a big fan of some of these arguments criticizing fans who complain either way. It's like the argument with the points system. Many people including myself loathed the 1975 Latford points system for giving way too many points to finishers in the back of the field (and not enough to the top finishers) so when the chase started, a lot of the fans of the so-called "classic" points system criticized people for wanting a change: "Well, you asked for a change and you got a change so shut up!" I think you're allowed to criticize a change if the change you wanted was not the change that you got. The Latford points system was good for '75 to encourage competitive part-time teams to run full-time, but everybody was running full-time by the mid '80s when you started to have ugly outcomes like Bill Elliott losing the title in '85 despite his overwhelming dominance then reintroducing points racing to NASCAR at the end of the '88 season to seal the deal (Joe Weatherly invented points racing in 1963, not Elliott, and the way he did it was much cooler than the modern version). There is and always has been a contingent that wants to see the fastest 43 cars qualify and NASCAR hasn't regularly done that for decades if ever. I tend to support the fastest 43 myself ideally, and bringing back the 2nd day of qualifying would be a great way of ensuring people still have a chance even if they spin out during qualifying on the first day or something... Having said that, the people who wanted fastest 43 were obviously not pleased when the top 35 rule was enacted. It effectively increased the number of provisionals from 7 to 35! It allowed really crappy teams like Kyle Petty's and latter era Robert Yates Racing to stay locked in while teams that were showing much more potential like Red Bull and MWR (yeah, okay, MWR sucked then, but they clearly had potential based on what they're doing now) with big sponsorships (this was supposed to be to support sponsors, right?) found it nearly impossible to break in until most NASCAR teams in general started losing sponsorships to the point where there were fewer than 35 full-time teams. Why should you expect somebody to be pleased if they wanted fastest 43 and got that bullshit? I think everybody agrees the old provisional system was better than that. Likewise, why should somebody be pleased with the chase if what they wanted was for the top positions to be rewarded more and the bottom positions to be rewarded much less, as I do? It's only hypocritical if you criticize the change you wanted. If you criticize a change that isn't the change you wanted, it's not. The top 35 rule seemed to be modeled after the Indy 500 25/8 rule of 1996 that locked in 25 IRL teams and only allowed 8 CART teams to enter unless they entered the Walt Disney World and Phoenix IRL races, which they didn't. That didn't go over well (ultimately leading to the U.S. 500 debacle scheduled on the same day as Indy), so why would NASCAR want to repeat one of the IRL's mistakes? Having said that, I don't know if I want fastest 43 anymore. Thinking about the Indy 500, which does ostensibly let in the top 33 starters (except '96-'97 due to 25/8), this doesn't always work well in practice, like when Scott Goodyear DNQed both in 1992 and 1994 and had his part-time teammates Mike Groff and Davy Jones pulled for him so he could start, or when Bruno Junqueira (by far and away the unluckiest driver of the last decade in any series) qualified easily in 2009 and 2011 and got pulled for his teammate Alex Tagliani who DNQed in 2009 and got his seat bought by Andretti Autosport for Ryan Hunter-Reay who DNQed in 2011. I mean at least when both Penske cars DNQed in 1995 and when Bobby Rahal DNQed in 1993, they didn't try to buy there way in just because they were big names and champions, when they easily could have. If that bullshit wasn't likely to happen in NASCAR (which it sadly is) then I would support fastest 43. Since NASCAR is corrupt in many of the same ways, I guess I'll settle for the old-school provisional system. I think I'd rather see 3 provisionals than 7. And maybe the 11th row at Indy should be a row of provisional starters at this point. Better to do that than to allow obnoxious ride-swapping... I do think there were some years when provisionals were unlimited and not just to top 25 teams, but I'm not entirely sure on that. 2509. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I, too, am looking forward to next year's cold weather Super Bowl. Hopefully I'll get to be off for that one unlike this year and last year. Hopefully the city will be calm until it is over. Last year I only got to watch the 1st quarter and the last half of the 4th quarter luckily. 2510. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I hope there's an Arctic freak blizzard during Super Bowl XLVIII. I love IndyCar's qualifying format. 33 fastest, no exceptions. 2511. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Ugh. Watching CBS' pregame show nd who the hell is this band? They are freaking awful! Also, I forgot to congratulate Mark Sanchez for winning the 2012 NFL MVBF award (most valuable butt fumble). Seriously, you guys need to follow @thefakeespn on Twitter. 2512. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Joe Flacco, why is it that he hasn't been punished for saying that the idea of a cold weather Super Bowl is "retarded" (excuse me, don't you play your best football when the weather gets cold?), but Clint Bowyer was fined by NASCAR for saying "we look like a bunch of retards" following the Phoenix race? At least Clint has the "heat of the moment" excuse as his defense (and he has since apologized for his remarks), but why the hell is Flacco getting off scot-free for his offensive remark? Maybe it's because Clint's comment was televised and Flacco's wasn't, but if Clint was fined for his "retards" remark, Flacco should have been as well. And if I could use Flacco's usage of the word "retarded" to make my point, what's more "retarded" than having a Super Bowl in a cold weather city is for a big-armed quarterback who plays some of his best football in cold weather games (including the past two games in Denver and New England) to not want to play a Super Bowl in a colder climate. Don't you like the fact that you have an advantage in colder conditions than some of the other top quarterbacks (including Peyton and Brady) have? Idiot. 2513. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, did you see the tweet picture of the conversation between Rex Ryan and Mark Sanchez after Sanchez was awarded MVBF? I guess Rex is going to have to add some artwork to that sexual tattoo he has on his right arm. 2514. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I love IndyCar's qualifying format. 33 fastest, no exceptions." Oh, come on. Scott Goodyear in '92 and '94. Alex Tagliani in '09. Ryan Hunter-Reay in '11. Not to mention that totally messed up 35-car 1997 field... I'd love for all racing to work this way, but the sponsors have way too much power. If it really was fastest 33 with no driver swaps allowed ever, I'd be for it... 2515. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's debatable whether the races in 1970 really count as restrictor plate races since not all cars used them." I didn't necessarily mean "restrictor plate races", but Pete Hamilton and Dale Earnhardt are the only drivers to have won three races on plate tracks (Daytona and Talladega) since 1969 when Talladega opened, regardless of whether or not restrictor plates were actually used. "Stewart has been more dominant than Gordon since 1999, and Gordon didn't have to compete against Stewart during his peak years..." 2001. Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Stewart would have had the same success that Gordon had in the '90s if given the same equipment and crew chief. From a talent standpoint he could have, but if he were to get rattled by another driver, I question his ability to put that behind him or use that as fuel for his success. Would Stewart have taken that wreck at Richmond '98 as well as Gordon did and finish in the top 7 for the next 21 races (including the 1999 Daytona 500)? Or would he have had a meltdown and throw in the towel? With Stewart, I wouldn't bet against the second option and that inability to control his emotions for an extended period of time will always cast a dark cloud over an otherwise great career. "What has Greg Zipadelli done without Stewart?" In Zippy's defense, he has had to work with Joey Logano and Danica Patrick the last four seasons. And in the one season that Stewart didn't have any meltdowns or controversial acts to hinder his success while Zippy was his crew chief, they won the championship in 2005 (in 2002, they were merely the beneficiaries of Sterling Marlin's injury and went on to become arguably the worst championship-winning team in Sprint Cup history). I know Zippy isn't a great crew chief, but I think he's better than his recent record suggests, given the "talent" he had to work with since Stewart left. 2516. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hope crash frequency as he calculates it is not a component factor in PEER." It isn't. PEER is actually not much more than results handicapped for equipment and team strength. How that handicap is calculated, I have yet to find out. "I'm not a big fan of his relevance statistic either... I know it's supposed to reflect team relevance more than driver relevance" That's just it. It is supposed to reflect the strength of the entire team. For example, Kyle Busch had a relevance of 72.22 percent during the 2012 season, ranking 17th out of 50 drivers who started at least eight races, but his PEER was 2.944, which ranked fourth. This suggests that his equipment was more at fault for his subpar 2012. In fact, this was Kyle Busch's second-best season as a driver since arriving at Joe Gibbs Racing (In 2008, his PEER was 3.250). "any statistic that would attempt to argue that Bobby Labonte in 2000 had the best season ever seems a little misguided to me." As a matter of fact, that year was a total outlier for the #18 team. They have never surpassed 80 percent outside of that year. 2517. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Watching CBS' pregame show and who the hell is this band? They are freaking awful!" OneRepublic. 2518. murb posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Stewart would have had the same success that Gordon had in the '90s if given the same equipment" Now THIS is interesting. Many people don't know about this, but apparently Rick Hendrick offered Stewart a ride in the 25 car back in 1997. Stewart declined and Ricky Craven got it instead, but can you imagine if that had happened? If you give Stewart a two year head start in the Cup Series in the same equipment as Gordon, I think we would have truly had a legit "teammate vs teammate, which one is better?" rivalry. And then imagine if they had still gotten Jimmie in 2002. Good lord, that's scary. 2519. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And any statistic that would attempt to argue that Bobby Labonte in 2000 had the best season ever seems a little misguided to me. I think all it means is he had the most consistent team ever or that he just had less bad luck than any other champion ever." Oh man, I TOTALLY forgot to mention this!! Bill Elliott's relevance driving for Melling Racing in 1988 was 100.00%. That's right. He NEVER finished outside the top half of the field. 2520. cjs3872 posted: 02.03.2013 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, driver swaps have been gong on longer than you think. It actually happened in 1970 or '71 involving Dick Simon, where Simon wasn't fast enough to qualify and bought his way into the field. Then there was that situation in 1977 where Salt Walther failed to qualify and his father tried to but him into the field that year. Fortunatly, due to three other events that occurred at Indy that year, that's largely forgotten. And you mention what happened at Indy in 1997, resulting in a 35-car field (it would have been 36 had one other driver not crashed) Well, that also happened in 1979. There was a controversy involving pop-off valves in 1979, because several drivers failed toqualify because of a bad batch of them, and USAC actually allowed an extra day of qualifying the day before the race, and anyone that could qualify faster than the slowest qualifer go into the race. Two did and one of them, Billy Vukovich II finished eighth. Then there was A.J. Foyt buying Tim Richmond into the 1981 race, and Dick Simon actually started the 1986 race as an alternate as result of Dennis Firestone's Carb Day crash. And you can't have a "fastest 43" rule in NASCAR because of the potential for fluky mechanical problems in qualifying. The case that sticks out for me occurred in May of 2003 at Charlotte. Jimmie Johnson had the fastest car, having already won the All-Star Race and was the heavy favorite for the pole. But he suffered an engine failure that prevented him from even making a qualifying run, as it blew n his warm-up lap. He started 37th, taking the first provisional, blew through the field, and won the rain-shortened race, the first of three consecutive 600s for Johnson. But there have also been cases where teams have bought their way into big races. One involved Michael Waltrip at the 1988 Daytona 500, where his team bought Jim Sauter's spot in the field, and the pit crew was a combination of Waltrip's Bahari Racing team and the Mueller Brothers team with which Sauter qualifed for the race. Then in 1997, Joe Nemechek failed to qualify for he Daytona 500. In that case, car owner Felix Sabates bought Phil Barkdoll out of the race and put his team's colors on the car. However, in both cases, the team was required to run the car number of the original qualifer, #89 for Waltrip in '88 and #73 for Nemechek in'97. And in the old days, that kind of thing happened all the time. In fact no less than four such changes occurred prior to the 1980 Daytona 500. So post-qualifying ride buying was a bigger issue 25-40 years ago than it is now. As for the provisionals, that used to be limited to the top 35 teams, but then that expanded to the next team down in the points, regardless of where it was. Then around 2000, a rule was put in limiting the number of provisionals a team would be allowed to have, and the same went for champion's provisionals. The limit was eight, but if a team was in the top 25 in points, there was no limit on the number of provisionals it could use, providing it stayed in the top 25. I believe the procedure was that you got four to start the year, and then got a extra one every eight races after the fourth or fifth race of the season, because that's when it started going by the present year's owner points. 2521. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm not really sold on Steve Addington either, who has not shown any kind of consistency as a crew chief either" I happen to agree with you, but give him a pass for '05-'07, when he had the fading Bobby Labonte and the ever legendary J.J. Yeley (seriously, a 0.063 PEER through 72 starts?). You should read David Smith's article comparing Addington and Darian Grubb. I made a mistake on Kyle Busch's 2008 PEER earlier. It was 3.556. 2522. Nick posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Last race without Danica for a long time :/ 2523. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sean, driver swaps have been gong on longer than you think." Yes, I happen to know a lot of that. I was just listing a few examples. I know about the 35-driver Indy grid at 1979 field. The USAC/CART split was just as much of a mess as the CART/IRL split, just for a shorter period of time. "And you can't have a "fastest 43" rule in NASCAR because of the potential for fluky mechanical problems in qualifying." That's why I'm suggesting second round qualifying should come back... No, I wouldn't suggest going to the fastest 43 cars with only one round of qualifying. I was mainly making a snarky comment because NRF seemed to be emphasizing how much purer Indy 500 qualifying is, when you can't say that when they allow that sort of ride-buying. I certainly agree ride-swapping was worse in the days before professional contracts and so on, but that comment was mainly about NRF's smugness about how pure Indy 500 qualifying is when it's really not... 2524. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You are about 2000 comments too late, Nick. Just messing with you. 2525. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "grid at 1979 field." grid in 1979. Yeah, so I don't proof my posts. "I happen to agree with you, but give him a pass for '05-'07" I do. It's more about 2009-2012. Bobby Labonte has not done anything since 2003 (and was highly overrated before then anyway) and Yeley has no talent outside sprint cars (where he is great). "Oh man, I TOTALLY forgot to mention this!! Bill Elliott's relevance driving for Melling Racing in 1988 was 100.00%. That's right. He NEVER finished outside the top half of the field." Oh crap. I did know that as well. Well, at least he, unlike Bobby Labonte, is an actual legend... 2526. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A flag on the very first play? Really? 2527. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Yeah, so I don't proof my posts." You'd think that a typing champion would have time to proofread his comments before he posts them. Just funning with you. 2528. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Well, at least he, unlike Bobby Labonte, is an actual legend..." Bobby Labonte has been a replacement-level producer since 2005. 2529. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why is there always so much criticism towards Bobby Labonte and Jeff Burton on this board? Nobody's claiming that either of them are among the all-time greats, and yet we're always reminded of how they're not legends. No shit! Both of them have had good, solid careers in the highest division of NASCAR, and at one point ('98-'01) were among the best in the sport. Nothing more, nothing less. Stop beating a dead horse with all of this "they're not legends" crap. Yeah, we get it, they're not among most talented drivers in the sport's history. Give it a rest already. "Well, at least he, unlike Bobby Labonte, is an actual legend..." So because Bobby Labonte had one spectacular season in an otherwise average to above average career, you're mocking his non-legend status? Give it a rest, dude. At least he has a championship, unlike "more talented drivers" like Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards. Labonte overachieved in his career, while each of the other three have underachieved given their tremendous talents and superb equipment (with the first two having much better JGR equipment than Labonte ever had). So he only had one spectacular season in a career filled with mostly average to above average results. From my point of view, doesn't that mean that he overachieved in his career, given the fact that this "non-legend" driver has a championship while more talented drivers in a "tougher era" don't? Stop with all the Bobby Labonte hate. It's been old for a while. 2530. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For being such a "great leader", Ray Lewis sure is doing a shitty job of keeping his team under control in the biggest game of the year. 2531. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually thinking more of non-champions of the '80s and '90s like Ernie Irvan, Geoff Bodine, Tim Richmond, Harry Gant, and Ricky Rudd who tend to get lost in history because they didn't win titles than people like Kyle and Denny now. I'd argue JGR was actually stronger in 1999 and 2000 on a week-to-week basis than it is now, but I'm not going to do so since I've irritated people enough. It's more about this driver X can handle the pressure of winning a championship and driver Y can't business that sets me off (and those arguments are just as played to death here), but I'll try to stop doing that. My evaluations of drivers' talents have nothing to do with my evaluations of their personalities. I don't hate Bobby Labonte. I like Bobby Labonte. I don't like Denny Hamlin, but he impresses me much more. Most people try to pump up drivers they like and critique drivers they don't. I always keep it separate and I thought that was understood. 2532. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but it implies all drivers who finish in the top half of the field were relevant in a race." I consider those to be relevant finishes, not necessarily relevant runs. "When David Ragan had his season when he completed more laps than anyone else, I'm going to bet he was high on the relevance chart, but he wasn't relevant in the races." David Ragan ranked 13th in relevance in 2008 and eighth in PEER with scores of 72.22 and 1.764, respectively. 2533. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bragging about being snarky is unsportsmanlike conduct ;) But, really, I come from the school of thought that says that if you have a fluky mechanical failure and DNQ it is you and your team's fault because the car should have been designed better . 2534. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok, I only got to watch about 3 minutes of the 1sr quarter, then had to run some bullshit. Looking at the halftime score. What the hell happened? 2535. Sean posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Paul, my discussions of drivers are NEVER intended to be personal. Yes, I'm probably beating a dead horse on some racing-related topics, but don't we all do that? Like cjs believing certain drivers are destined to win championships and marquee races and others aren't because of their emotional maturity (I think it just has to do with luck and equipment strength for the most part unless somebody truly dominant emerges)? And NicoRosbergFan going on about how almost none of the recent NASCAR drivers has any talent since the emergence of power steering? I think every regular here has arguments we make just a tad too much... 2536. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, I'm no expert, but the 49ers are playing badly. They fumbled the ball once, and Colin Kaepernick threw an interception (the first in SF's Super Bowl history). 2537. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Got a hair across your rear today, Sean? The 49ers look aaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwfffffffffffuuuuuuuuullllll. I said it once, and I will say it twice. The fix (aka rigging) is in for Ray Lewis. 2538. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when I said that you were hating on Bobby Labonte, I was referring to his NASCAR career, not as a person. Quite frankly, unless you are a Kyle Busch fan and the only race you've ever watched was the most recent Watkins Glen race when Labonte was dropping oil all over the race track for the final two laps, which ultimately caused Kyle to slip and get knocked out of the lead, I don't think anybody actually dislikes Bobby Labonte. "I think every regular here has arguments we make just a tad too much..." Fair enough. I know I do that sometimes when I'm talking about tremendously talented drivers who struggle when the pressure is on, both in marquee races and championship battles. "Looking at the halftime score. What the hell happened?" To use a phrase famously used by the legendary Hank Stram, the Ravens are doing a much better job of matriculating the ball down the field. It was 14-3 (would have been 17-3 if the Ravens had just kicked the field goal instead of unsuccessfully faking it) with about three minutes left in the half, when Flacco threw a very long pass to Jacoby Jones, who fell down at around the 10-yard line, but wasn't touched and easily got into the endzone. Kaepernick isn't doing a very good job of leading the team down the field. I still have hope for him because he struggled early in the NFC title game as well, but he had better step it up in the second half. 2539. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think every regular here has arguments we make just a tad too much..." Not me, I haven't been here long enough. Just kidding. 2540. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Colin Kaepernick threw an interception (the first in SF's Super Bowl history)." Wow, I never even thought of that. Well at least Kaepernick can say he's done something that Montana and Young have never done. It's not good, but it's something. 2541. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Quite frankly, unless you are a Kyle Busch fan and the only race you've ever watched was the most recent Watkins Glen race when Labonte was dropping oil all over the race track for the final two laps, which ultimately caused Kyle to slip and get knocked out of the lead, I don't think anybody actually dislikes Bobby Labonte." HAHA!! 2542. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like the lights literally went out on this Super Bowl. 2543. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Could this game get any worse for the 49ers. 2544. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What the heck is wrong with San Francisco this is not Detroit man this is the Superbowl. 2545. cjs3872 posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember the Vicki Lawrence song "The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia"? Well, tonight's "The Night the Lights Went Out in the Super Bowl", as there was a power outage 1:38 into the thid quarter. Of course, the 49ers have been playing in the dark the entire night, even allowing the longest scoring play you can have, a 109-YD kickoff return by Jacoby Jones to start the second half, but he power outage epitimizes the game for the 49ers so far and delays what is apparently going to be a celebration for the Ravens. I've been saying for several yars that it's long past due for a one-sided Super Bowl. Well, tonight's apparently the night the bill came in after one good Super Bowl after another, but this incindent surpasses the Garo Yepremian "volleyball pass" as the most bizarre in Super Bowl moment in Super Bowl history, and shows the risks of playing he Super Bowl in such an old stadium, as the Superdome is nearly 40 years old. 2546. Cheez Hedd posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paging Alex Smith.... paging Alex Smith.... If S.F. wants to win this game they'd better put in a real QB. I don't buy that "fix is in" crap for Stabby Lewis, but if I *was* a paranoid type I might believe that somebody switched off the power just to break Baltimore's momentum. 2547. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The NFL stole NASCAR's thunder as that blackout should have been saved for the Daytona 500 in 3 weeks. 2548. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't know the Undertaker was making a guest appearance at this Superbowl 2549. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone else voting for the Coke Chase? I was disappointed that I couldn't vote for the guy on the camel to win. 2550. 18fan posted: 02.03.2013 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As you guys know, I am a huge Kyle Busch fan and the Watkins Glen finish was as mad as I've ever been at the end of a race. I was more upset with NASCAR for not throwing the caution flag once it was obvious there was oil on the track. I think NASCAR screwed up the finish at Phoenix more than they did at Watkins Glen. 2551. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now it's just a one score game. Who'da thunk it? 2552. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) FUMBLE!! My dad and I always say in regards to sports, "It isn't over until it's over". He was just about to concede the game to the Ravens earlier. I kept reminding him of this. By the way, we are both pulling for the 49ers. We have relatives in California. 2553. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Watkins Glen race was one of the few races that I missed last season (which, as a fan of road course racing, pained me to miss), but I was following the race on my ESPN Scorecenter app and could tell that Kyle had the car to beat all race. Those final 10 laps were pretty nerve-racking for me as I knew that a Kyle Busch win would pretty much seal Jeff Gordon's season as they were battling for the 2nd wildcard position in the Chase. You can imagine my surprise when suddenly my app showed Marcos Ambrose was in 1st and Kyle had dropped back to 7th once the race ended, which meant that Gordon still had a shot with four races left before the Chase. That of course led to arguably the greatest drive of Gordon's career, as well as the biggest meltdown of Kyle's career at Richmond when Gordon took the 12th and final Chase position away from Kyle. But I agree with 18fan that that race was poorly officiated by the officials, though not quite as bad as the Phoenix race because at least at Watkins Glen, NASCAR could say "We didn't see any oil on the track," while at Phoenix it was very clear that Gordon's and Danica's cars were wrecked and limping around the race track. Even though throwing a caution at Watkins Glen would have ended the race (unless it was thrown before the white flag) and likely would have won Kyle the race and given him a one win advantage for the 2nd wildcard position, it sends a bad message that the sanctioning body is capable of having its driver drive around on an unsafe race track. I know all the pundits proclaimed it to be a great race just based on the exciting final lap, but I think driver safety is far more important than adding excitement to an otherwise boring season. If excitement is all that matters, then why bother having rain delays or any cautions at all, considering how having 43 cars drive around on an unsafe race track excites the lowest common denominator of race fans. I say if there's a danger on the track (i.e wrecked race cars, oil, debris, rain, snow, faulty track lights, man running from the infield, etc.), throw the caution. If there's no danger on the track (i.e phantom debris, long green flag run, an angry Bruton Smith, etc.), keep the race green. If the fans aren't entertained, then just let the race play itself out and try to make a change to the cars or track in time for the next race. Don't try to make a show out of it by playing God with the yellow flag. It just makes the sport look second rate. 2554. Baker posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) These officials are a joke. What is it now like 7-1 penalties. Ed Reed was clearly offside on that 2 point and Michael Oher holds more than any NFL offensive lineman in the NFL. 2555. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LordLowe where are you? I need YouTube message updates every second. Now ot is a two point game? I still haven't got back in front of a TV. Last I saw Balt was up 28-6. 2556. 18fan posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Phoenix officiating on the last lap with the oil was the worst NASCAR officiating I've seen probably since they penalized Carl in the 2006 Bud Shootout. 2557. Baker posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Phoenix officiating bc of oil was the worst you've ever seen, but the Watkins Glen fiasco wasn't? Both were equally as pathetic. 2558. 18fan posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oil was much more visible at Phoenix, therefore making it worse. 2559. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm still amazed that Carl Edwards was penalized for passing below the yellow line twice in the '06 Bud Shootout. The first time was somewhat understandable because he passed Kasey Kahne below the yellow and didn't give the position back, but he did that because Kasey came down on him, and Carl ducked below the yellow line to avoid a wreck. But the second one was pure bullshit. He went below the yellow to avoid running into Jimmie Johnson, who was coming down pit road, lost two positions, and was still penalized. What the hell for?! He LOST positions and momentum by going below the yellow, isn't that penalty enough? Did NASCAR want him to cause a big wreck? I consider that to be the worst non-caution related call that NASCAR has made under the Brain France administration, just edging out the 2008 fall Talladega race finish. 2560. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate everything. 2561. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Those two timeouts that the 49ers called are what's going to keep them from getting another shot. 2562. David posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nuts. 2563. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) End: screwfest 2564. Baker posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The officiating has been a joke. Ed Reed was clearly offside on the 2 point and no call. They flag SF for the same thing. There was an obvious hold on 4th and goal. I hope you Raven fans are happy knowing it took your city stealing another's franchsie, your 2 star defenders dopping to get back to the Super Bowl, and bias officiating for you to expierence victory. Least deserving franchise of a Super Bowl in NFL history. NFL is a joke. 2565. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well it looks like I'm gonna have to avoid all sports networks until they start talking about the NFL Draft. 2566. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Both of the Ravens' Super Bowls have been surrounded by controversy. Twelve years ago it was overshadowed by Ray Lewis and his entourage being involved in the deaths of two young men, and now we have a combination of players doping and horrible officiating. They couldn't win America's hearts 12 years ago, and they definitely won't now. I'm hoping an investigation is made on this franchise with repercussions made, because two of those players shouldn't have been playing today. 2567. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.03.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, you and me both are gonna have to avoid the sports network. Thank goodness for Brad's title cause it has been a horrible year for sports champs. The Miami Heat and their We Are A Blessing Too All Of You To Watch Us attitude wins the NBA, John Calipari wins the NCAA title, a notorious rule breaker and somebody who has embraced the terrible college one and done system, and now Ray Lewis. Cheating and Lying are apparently the path to greatness. Ugh. 2568. Paul posted: 02.03.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just think, DSFF. Had Brad not won the NASCAR Cup title, it would have been a clean sweep of cheaters/liars winning titles in sports as Brad had to beat the #48 team to win the title, one of the biggest cheating teams in NASCAR history. Also, if not for Eli Manning putting on his Superman cape once again in last year's Super Bowl, we would have back-to-back cheating franchises with Super Bowl victories. Other than the #2 Penske team and the New York Giants, this past year has been a miserable year for us sports fans who resent lying and cheating to get your way to the top. 2569. 18fan posted: 02.03.2013 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least my two favorite sports, racing and baseball, had champions that are tolerable. I don't like the Giants at all, but that is because I live in L.A. and am a Dodger fan. 2570. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.04.2013 - 7:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well let me say that this wasn't the Joe Montana led 49ers or the Steve Young Super Bowl XXIX Led 49ers this was the present day 49ers who blew their shot at the title. 2571. 83andJoe posted: 02.04.2013 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I do think there were some years when provisionals were unlimited and not just to top 25 teams, but I'm not entirely sure on that. At least by 1995, the provisionals were given to the top 40 drivers in owners points; from 1997 onwards, any team who had attempted a race, even just one and DNQing, was eligible to use provisionals afterwards. The Past Champion's Proivisional was the only one that was unlimited, though, up until DW forced them to change that. >Then in 1997, Joe Nemechek failed to qualify for he Daytona 500. In that case, car owner Felix Sabates bought Phil Barkdoll out of the race and put his team's colors on the car. And Barkdoll laughed all the way to the bank. 2572. Scott B posted: 02.04.2013 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nemechek also ended up on the other side of a deal like that in 2009 as a team owner. He put Scott Speed in his ride for a couple of races when Red Bull Racing was still struggling just to make the field, in return for help he was getting from them with equipment. I wonder if we might see that kind of buyout return in 2013? 2573. David posted: 02.04.2013 - 12:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bobby Labonte has not done anything since 2003 (and was highly overrated before then anyway)" I never caught this before, but David Smith wrote in the 2012 PEER projections that Labonte actually earned consecutive seasons of 4.000 PEER or higher in 1999 and 2000. 2574. 83andJoe posted: 02.04.2013 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) R.I.P., the Rainbow Warrior paint scheme: while the sponsorship continues, DuPont's new owners have rebranded the paint business as Axalta Coating Systems. ...just what in the name of a focus group is an "Axalta" anyway? 2575. David posted: 02.04.2013 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm going to miss the DuPont oval. 2576. jabber1990 posted: 02.04.2013 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dick Simon: is he the same Dick Simon that operated a trucking company out of Salt Lake City? 2577. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.04.2013 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like that rainbow scheme will never be seen again except in museums. And if they do bring it back, it will look silly with a different name (think Darrell's throwback schemes in '97 that all said Parts America on them, or Mark's '05 Viagra schemes, at least Rusty got to run the actual Miller Genuine Draft car in '05 which was his actual final season unlike Mark and he wasn't an afterthought unlike Darrell). Talk about lost marketing opportunities. DuPont really blew it last year, a pretty weak celebration for an unparalleled modern accomplishment (20 years with one driver, one team, and one number). 2578. cjs3872 posted: 02.04.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jabber1990, I believe it is, because if you watch the 1975 Indianapolis 500, late in the race a fire breaks out in Simon's pit area, and Keith Jackson mentioned that Simon was from Sandy, Utah. Simon was sponsored by TraveLodge for a number of years in the 70s, and even drove in some NASCAR races, including the 1974 Daytona 500 and the infamous 1973 Winston 500, in which he finished seventh. He was also one of those caught in Salt Walther's crash at the initial start of the 1973 Indianapolis 500. Ironically, Simon's best days as a driver came later in his career, as he posted a pair of top ten finishes in his last two Indianapolis 500s. Other than 1973, when he dropped out while running fourth or fifth, he had never been competitve there as a driver and was always battling just to make the field, once starting the race as an alternate when Dennis Firestone had his Carb Day crash in 1986. 2579. jabber1990 posted: 02.04.2013 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I work for one of the 2 companies that his company evolved into 2580. Paul posted: 02.04.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenny Wallace wrote on his Twitter page and on his website that he will be driving for RAB Racing in the Eldora Truck race this season. Also, legendary dirt track racer Scott Bloomquist will drive for Kyle Busch Motorsports in the Eldora Truck race too. It will be Bloomquist's first race in any NASCAR division. SR2 Motorsports purchased Randy MacDonald's Nationwide team and will field three full-time teams this season. SR2 fielded two Nationwide teams last season, the #24 car (full-time) and the #00 car (part-time), with a variety of drivers, including Benny Gordon, Blake Koch, the Cope twins, Casey Roderick, and various one-off drivers throughout the 2012 season. No word on what the third team's number will be or who any of the drivers will be (although I think it's likely that Blake Koch will race one of the cars full-time, and possibly Jason Bowles, who drove for MacDonald in 2012). MacDonald Motorsports will still field a car in the K&N Pro Series East, which will be driven by Scott Saunders (who ironically made his Nationwide debut for SR2 Motorsports). 2581. murb posted: 02.04.2013 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm watching Nascar Race Hub, and that tool Matt Clark thinks that the Daytona 500 should be run at night just because the Super Bowl is at night. Ugh, I feel like Tony Stewart lately with the way I've been bashing these media people, but seriously, it's not like they don't deserve it. It sounds like we will start having "dirt ringers" in Nascar with the addition of Eldora. Bloomquist is running it, Blaney is running a one off Truck race, and so is Kenny Wallace. I REALLY can't wait for that race. Too bad about Dupont being renamed or whatever. It will be weird to see the 24 without those logos. In other Hendrick sponsor news, I read a rumor the other day that said that Lowe's will be pulling out of the sport after this year. Now THAT will be weird to see, if it in fact happens. 2582. Paul posted: 02.04.2013 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I read a rumor the other day that said that Lowe's will be pulling out of the sport after this year." Now THAT would be a very telling story about the state of NASCAR. Hypothetically speaking, if the driver with most championships than any active driver loses his sponsorship and struggles to find additional sponsorship, this sport is in an incredibly bad state that no amount of media sugar-coating can cover up. Now of course, Johnson would likely find additional sponsorship to replace Lowe's if they were to pack up and leave--and if all else fails he could just cockblock another driver and take their sponsorship, like what Tony Stewart did by taking Jamie McMurray's Bass Pro Shops sponsorship--, but if there's one driver who deserves sponsorship, it's the driver who has won five Cup titles in the last seven seasons. 2583. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.04.2013 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually this season will match the all time driver/sponsor record. This will be their 21st season together. Richard Petty had STP for his final 21 seasons (of course they stayed with him as an owner for a long time afterwards). Think about the iconic driver/sponsor combos. 2001 was gonna be Dale's 14th season with Goodwrench as a primary (17th total if you count '85-'87 when they were an associate sponsor). Purolator sponsored Pearson at Holman Moody then at the Woods for 13 different seasons (no even continuous), Miller sponsored Rusty for his last 16 seasons. This really is the end of an era as the new company will take over with their name in the 2nd half of the year, and by reading the press release, I get the feeling they won't be back after the original DuPont deal expires at the end of this year. 2584. Paul posted: 02.04.2013 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The feelings of joy I got after hearing that Bruno Sammartino will be inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame this year completely overshadow my feelings of dismay over the Super Bowl and the news about DuPont. Very well-deserved, as he probably ranks among the five greatest wrestlers of all-time, along with Hulk Hogan, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, and The Undertaker. I consider Bruno to be the Johnny Unitas of WWE, because he helped put it on the map back in the mid-1960s, was the greatest of his era, and helped pave the way for future superstars to make it big in pro wrestling. Plus, he held the WWE championship for over ELEVEN YEARS, including one title reign that lasted for EIGHT YEARS. That alone makes him live up to his nickname of being a Living Legend. There's been some bad blood between he and Vince McMahon for many years, dating back to at least 1987 when Bruno last worked for WWE, but I'm happy that they have decided to put aside their differences and Bruno has finally accepted McMahon's offer to join the Hall of Fame. A lot of the credit goes to Triple H, who has been in talks with Bruno for several months and finally convinced him to accept McMahon's offer. Triple H has been playing the role of a mediator between the two for awhile as Bruno has a lot of respect for him, and was able to convince Bruno that the company has done a lot to protect its wrestlers, improve its drug program, and scale back on the racy storylines and gimmicks that caused Bruno to distance himself from the company for 25 years. I get the feeling that Bruno and Vince do want to speak to each other again, but have allowed their emotions and egos to prevent them from doing so for a long time. According to Triple H, both of them began pondering the idea of calling the other one up on the phone, to which Triple H told them not to, feeling that the proper way to bury the hatchet over such long-lasting bad blood for one another is for Bruno and Vince to meet face-to-face, which they will do in two months at the Hall of Fame ceremony, which takes place the night before Wrestlemania. I had come to terms with the fact that Bruno and Vince were never going to see eye-to-eye and that I would never get to see Bruno get inducted into the Hall of Fame. But thanks to Triple H, who for all the negative things said about him has a great deal of respect for the wrestling business and all the great wrestlers who paved the way for him, this 25+ year feud has come to an end and Bruno will take his rightful place in the Hall of Fame, which fittingly takes place at Madison Square Garden, the venue that Bruno sold-out more than any other wrestler (187 times). As a long-time fan of professional wrestling, I am excited to see Bruno's speech, as it should be a memorable moment just to see him in a WWE venue for the first time in my lifetime. 2585. BON GORDON posted: 02.05.2013 - 3:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well i've been gone a while. I'm sure no one really missed me. Just wanted to say that I'm a casual NFL fan. Being from Pittsburgh which arguably has the greatest most obsessed fans in all of football it's hard to not watch it. The had a rough season (8/8, missed the playoffs). I don't get upset if the Steelers lose but let me tell you all something last night during the Super Bowl I got quite upset at some points. I hate Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, and the Balitomre Ravens team in general. San Fransico made too many mistakes and had some bad calls against them. A Jeff Gordon like comeback wasn't enough for the 49's to pull through. I'm also a BIG music guy and I'm probably in the minority on this website to say that I thought Beyonce's halftime performance was the best since Bruce Springsteen's in 2009. Really though Superbowl halftime shows arent that great overall. Next year there are already rumors that my band, Bon Jovi will be the halftime performance. However, some say that the cold weather in New Jersey next year may keep there from being a halftime show. I say suck it up and let Livin' On A Prayer, It's My Life, and Have A Nice Day be belted out in full force by Jon Bon Jovi. They actually performed at the 2006 Daytona 500 and I was smilling from ear to ear. Unfortunately that faded during the race when Jeff Gordon cut off Tony Stewart and hit the wall. He ended up finishing 26th. I missed ther early debate but speaking of Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon who's better. 1999- A tie. Gordon finishes 6th in points with 7 wins. However Tony finishes 4th in points with only three wins but it was hos rookie year. 2000- Stewart. Higher in points (6th, Gordon-9th) and more wins (6 wins, Gordon-3) 2001- Gordon. Wins championship while Stewart comesback to finish second in points. (6 wins, Stewart 3 wins) 2002- Stewart. Gordon was just more inconsistent than Stewart but Stewart won the championship (Gordon-4th). Both won three races 2003/2004- Gordon- Stewart was much more inconsistent and not as fast as Gordon overall. Gordon finished 4th and 3rd in points with 8 wins in those two years while Stewart finished 7th and 6th with just 4 wins. 2005/2006- Stewart won the title in 2005 and barely missed the chase in 2006 finishing 11th. Gordon finished 11th in 2005 but struggled a ton and finshed 6th in points in 2006 In those two seasons however Stewart had more wins (10 wins, Gordon 6) and more Top fives (32, Gordon 22) than Gordon. 2007/2008- Gordon finished higher in pointes both years, had more wins (6 to Stewart's 4), had more top fives (34, Stewart 21), and Top Tens (49, Stewart 39) than Stewart both years. 2009-2012- Stewart has been better overall than Gordon. Stewart's average points finish is 5.8 (won the title in 2011). Gordon's is 7.5. Stewart has won more races every single year from 2008 through last year. From 2009 through last year Stewart has won 14 races while Gordon has only won 6 races. 2586. Paul posted: 02.05.2013 - 4:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tommy Baldwin had some interesting words to say in response to Bruton Smith's latest episode of verbal diarrhea, regarding the start-and-park strategy used by a number of small teams over the past five seasons. During a media conference yesterday, Baldwin said "Obviously, Bruton has got enough money that if he wanted to be part of the solution he'd help figure out how. Those are things he probably shouldn't be worried about. Hendrick, Childress, Roush; they all started very small just like TBR. Bruton can do a better job. We've tried to get his sponsors at his tracks involved in some package deals, but they don't want anything to do with it. They're too greedy." Wow! Big respect to Tommy Baldwin for speaking out against Bruton and his corporate control over areas of NASCAR, rather than kiss his ass while in his presence, unlike a certain 84-race NASCAR winner (and I don't mean Bobby Allison). I've always liked Baldwin as he is one of the few "old school" people in the NASCAR garage and has been known to speak out against those that are NEVER spoken about negatively by the media (including Stewart, Junior, and Bruton), but I'm extra glad that he made those statements regarding Bruton and his idiotic remarks about start-and-park teams, considering how I myself similarly voiced my opinion about Bruton's comments in an earlier post. I'm really sick of people in power only helping out those that also have power, and then kicking the little guy down when he's fighting and clawing just to survive. It's like this in the real world (especially the business world), and it's like this in NASCAR. If Bruton wanted to resolve this problem, he would have done something about it. But he doesn't, because what he really wants it for the smaller teams to either get big now, which is impossible given the current state of the sport and, or close up shop, because he doesn't give a shit about the little guy. He would rather have 43 cars fielded by HMS, Roush, and JGR than have these "worthless peasants" mooching off of his business. To hell with him and his bigotry against the smaller teams. This sport will be far better off once he and the other fat cats are out of the picture. Baldwin said something at the end that intrigued me, when he said "We've tried to get his sponsors at his tracks involved in some package deals, but they don't want anything to do with it." Doesn't this sound awfully similar to when Sprint/Nextel tried to eliminate all other telecommunications companies from participating in the sport, starting with AT&T in 2007, and then announcing that all rival companies had to be gone from the Sprint Cup Series by 2009, eliminating AT&T and Alltel, and blocking Verizon Wireless from advertising on Penske's #12 car in '09 and '10? Some of you guys mentioned this before by discussing Winston and their "quiet" blocking of other cigarette/tobacco companies from advertising in NASCAR, and these statements by Baldwin are pretty telling as to how much the NASCAR and its partners are affecting the teams by holding a monopoly over certain sponsorships. NASCAR is looking out for NASCAR, SMI is looking out for SMI, and ISC is looking out for ISC. All the NASCAR teams are on their own, and unless they have large pocketbooks or have "friends in high places" (or both in the case of HMS), they're just thrown to the wolves and expected to survive on their own without any assistance from the sanctioning body and all of its partners. No wonder there are so many teams struggling to survive, with some having to resort to starting-and-parking just to make it to pay the bills, in this day and age. The people in charge are doing a shitty job of providing a livable working environment, and it's only going to keep getting worse if ignorant people like Bruton Smith continue to look down upon and spit into the faces of the smaller teams that can't catch a break. 2587. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.05.2013 - 5:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, Petty and STP started in 1971, so they were together 22 years, and then there were the 1993-2000 years that STP was the sponsor for Rick Wilson, John Andretti, and Bobby Hamilton. 2588. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2013 - 6:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The huge difference is that Jeff has got the most out of his career while Tony has allowed his emotions to overrule his best efforts. While Tony is not in Kyle Busch's league as far as not reaching potential, he has had his Agree To Lose moments. 2589. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.05.2013 - 7:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Enjoy the Sprint Unlimited, folks, as it will be the last race in NASCAR history without Danica Patrick as a full-time Cup driver... 2590. Bill Belichick posted: 02.05.2013 - 7:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Next Season I will have my Revenge 2591. Spen posted: 02.05.2013 - 7:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David : Since you're the only one who really cares, I thought I'd let you know that I Latfordized 1966. Yes, I'm aware that I skipped ahead 10 years. I'll get the intervening years at some point, '66 just attracted my interest for some reason. 2592. cjs3872 posted: 02.05.2013 - 9:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually NicoRosbergFan, STP was not with Petty in 1971. STP got into NASCAR in 1971, but they sponsored the car co-owned by Ray Nichels and Paul Goldsmith, which was driven by Fred Lorenzen. Dave Marcis and David Pearson also drove for Nichels-Goldsmith in 1971, but neither of those two drivers had the STP colors. STP first joined Petty in 1972, staying with them through 2000, and returned for one race at Kansas last year (wasn't it nice to see the STP #43 back last year at Kansas?). And I also think DSFF was referring to jut the years Petty was the driver. And among the drivers in the STP #43 car from 1993-2000, you forgot to mention Wally Dallenbach, Jr., as he drove the car for the first two-thirds of the 1994 season. Of course, Dallenbach's family had a long association with STP, as his father twice drove cars sponsored by STP, most famously for Pat Patrick from 1973, when he took over when Swede Savage died, though 1977. Wally Dallenbach, Sr. also drove an STP-sponsored car at Indy in 1972 when he replaced an injured Art Pollard. You got the other drivers correct, though, and it was with John Andretti that the #43 car returned to he front of the field, qualifying on the front row at Michigan in his first race in that car, and Andretti is, to this day, the last driver to win in the #43, doing so at Martinsville 14 years ago. And of course, Bobby Hamilton won twice in that car. 2593. David posted: 02.05.2013 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) How many times did you re-check the points to make sure John Sears was really in second? 2594. David posted: 02.05.2013 - 11:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I appreciate it, Spen. 2595. David posted: 02.05.2013 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR is now placing the manufacturer's logo on the windshield next to the driver's name. I thought the whole point of the Gen-6 car was to bring brand identity back to the cars. 2596. David posted: 02.05.2013 - 11:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I left my previous comment incomplete, so I'll post it again. NASCAR is now placing the manufacturer's logo on the windshield next to the driver's name. I thought the whole point of the Gen-6 car was to bring brand identity back to the cars so the fans could better identify each car make. Good grief... 2597. Scott B posted: 02.05.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ A little bit of Talladega Nights comes true for 2013. Sell the windshield! 2598. Sean posted: 02.05.2013 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hendrick, Childress, Roush; they all started very small just like TBR." I liked Tommy Baldwin's comments in general but I'm not sure I can agree with this one. Childress did start out small, I'll give him that one. Hendrick had legendary crew chief Harry Hyde from the team's inception and has always had tons of corporate connections (albeit probably not AS many in 1984). Roush may have debuted in NASCAR in '88, but he was already a household name to racing fans in general based on his NHRA, IMSA, and Trans-Am success. Roush entering NASCAR was like Penske or Ganassi entering NASCAR. Hardly small potatoes... I'm struggling to think of ANY of the current/recent powerhouse teams that did indeed start small and build their way up. I can't say MWR because they were meant to be the Toyota factory team. I think you'd maybe have to go back to the days of Leo Jackson, Morgan-McClure, Alan Kulwicki and the owner-drivers he inspired for that. Hendrick and Roush very small? Hah. I think I could make a better case for Joe Gibbs than those two. 2599. Scott B posted: 02.05.2013 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^ NASCAR doesn't think it's fans are very bright. It shows in lots of little ways. But, this does bring just a hint of "Talladega Nights" to the 2013 season (the scene where they sold sponsor space on the windshield). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvi9zpHlrvg 2600. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.05.2013 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was me who posted comment 2590. Just to see if I would get a reaction from anyone here. 2601. Scott B posted: 02.05.2013 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if losing Dodge's participation is having an effect on NASCAR as far the manaufacturer's brand identification? The Gen 6 car had obviouly been on the drawing board for some time, but the windshield logo sounds like a very last-minute thing that someone pitched and got approved. 3 active brands is as low as a racing series can go and still have a decent show for fans who care about such things. NASCAR has to keep those current manufacturers it has happy, and should start getting serious about courting a newcomer. PS: I don't expect Dodge back soon. With the Fiat/Alfa Romeo/Ferrari group in charge at Chrysler, I don't think it's a high priority. I'm not even convinced that the Dodge brand is a focal point for them. 2602. cjs3872 posted: 02.05.2013 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when you refer to Penske entering NASCAR, are you referring to his return in 1991, when he, Don Miller, and Rusty Wallace purchased Blue Max Racing, or when Penske first entered NASCAR back with the AMC Matador in 1972 with Mark Donohue? 2603. David posted: 02.05.2013 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tommy Baldwin had some interesting words to say in response to Bruton Smith's latest episode of verbal diarrhea" Good for him. By the way, the "verbal diarrhea" you refer to is actually called "logorrhea". Bruton Smith has that, as well as pietrisycamollaviadelrechiotemexity (look that one up!). 2604. Daniel posted: 02.05.2013 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -NEMCO Motorsports and Jay Robinson Racing have merged and will run a partial Nationwide schedule and the full cup schedule with Joe Nemechek -John Wes Townley will run a partial schedule in the Nationwide series for Venturini Motorsports 2605. murb posted: 02.05.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know if I've ever mentioned it before, but I also hate Bruton Smith. Just to clarify. 2606. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 02.05.2013 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hamlin has stated in an interview with the sporting news that he needs to win 6-7 races get 17-18 top5s and 22-23 top 10s. What do you guys think the numbers should be for the nascar champion. Especially with the chase you can win the title with lower numbers than previously. Stewart won the title with just 19 top10s. 2607. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 02.05.2013 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also what fantasy leagues do you guys play in. 2608. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.05.2013 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nah LordLowe, Belichick isn't worried about getting revenge for next season yet. Here are the Top 10 current priorities for the moment: 10) Trying to get OJ Simpson's guilty verdict in Vegas overturned 9) Raising funds for the Westboro Baptist Church 8) Making sure Justin Beiber stays on every TV show for another 10 years 7) Lobbying Congress to lower pension plans for retired soldiers from their already ridiculousy low rates 6) Visiting Charles Manson in jail to get leaderhip tips 5) Rolling up at the last moment and parking in that spot you have been patiently waiting for 4) Watching Mark Martin's post race interview from the '98 Fall Michigan race on a continuous loop 3) Getting A-Rod's autograph cause he admires him personally 2) While attending the HOF induction of his mentor, Bill Parcells, going by Gale Sayers' HOF bust and cursing at it for all the things he did for Brian Pikalo 1) Visiting homeless shelters for sideline wardrobe advice 2609. Anonymous posted: 02.05.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stewart won the title with just 19 top10s." Reason #63 why the Chase should be disbanded. 2610. Paul posted: 02.06.2013 - 12:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only did Stewart have 19 top ten finishes in 2011 when he won the championship, but he had only 9 top five finishes, which tied a career-low that he originally set the season prior in 2010. In 2010, he finished 7th in the standings, and had he not awoken from his coma and showed us exactly how talented a race car driver that he is, he would have been lucky to finish 7th in 2011 based on how mediocre his regular season was. If not for the Chase, the championship battle would not have been nearly as exciting as it turned out to be, as Carl Edwards was doing his best "Matt Kenseth from 2003" impression by forgetting how to win, but also forgetting what a non-top ten finish looked like and dominating everybody on consistency. That being said, as exciting as that championship fight turned out to be, Stewart was undeserving of being champion based on his mediocre regular season leading up to the Chase, having just 3 top fives in the first 26 races (which was less than what Paul Menard, Marcos Ambrose, David Ragan, and Joey Logano had in the first 26 races, and all four of them missed the Chase). It will probably get overlooked historically because Stewart is certainly talented enough to win three Cup titles, no matter which points system he does so with, but he didn't deserve to win the championship. The only drivers who I think were deserving of the title were Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch, and Jeff Gordon, and while the latter two each had a mediocre Chase, Harvick had bad karma surrounding him after the infamous Richmond race. So in the end, only one driver deserved the 2011 championship and that was Carl Edwards. In a way, 2011 was the exact opposite of the 1985 season. In '85, Bill Elliott clearly was the dominant driver all season and lost the championship because of his inconsistencies on the short tracks (which were Darrell Waltrip's specialties). But in '11, it was just the opposite as the driver with the most wins and mediocre results among the Chase contenders wound up winning the championship. Both of these titles were won largely because of their respective points systems. Bill lost it in '85 because that points system benefited consistency over an entire season, while not rewarding wins any more than any other position (the difference between 1st and 2nd place was the same as the difference between 5th and 6th place). Meanwhile, Tony won the title in '11 because while this points system rewards wins more than any other position, it doesn't reward the remaining top finishing positions from any other position on the track (the difference between 2nd and 3rd place is the same as the difference between 42nd and 43rd place). So consistency doesn't really matter if you don't have the wins to back it up, which is exactly what caused Carl to lose the championship, despite having a worst Chase finish of 11th and Stewart having finishes of 15th and 25th, and still winning the championship. The 2011 season proved what a joke the current points system is because not only did the deserving driver lose the title because of the points system, but an undeserving driver wound up winning it because of that points system. The problem on the other hand is that NASCAR won't change it because they got exactly what they wanted: The championship ending in a tie, with the tiebreaker being settled by number of wins. It really is a shame that we have such a lousy points system in place nowadays. The last one wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better than the one we have now. 2611. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.06.2013 - 7:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Any early 2013 NASCAR Hall of Fame predictions? 2612. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I've gone over this before, but all NASCAR has to do is to put more weight into the top ten positions, especially the top five, because the points given to the 11th-43rd is fine as it is. Just increase it to two points per position from 6th-10th, three per position from second through fifth, and five from the winner to second place, and I think that they may finally achieve that balance between dominance and consistent performance. And if they keep the Chase, which I've disliked since the start, they should weigh the points standings BEFORE adding the bonus points for wins, which I do agree with giving, but only after seeding the points positions as they are after the 26th race. Right now, a battle for second place is no more important than a battle for 32nd place, and that's just plain wrong. At least with the Latford system, there were a few more points on the line the further up the order you got. Granted it was't much, but it increased from three outside the top ten to four inthe bottom half of the top ten, to five inside the top five. When the current point system was thought of (not very well), NASCAR thought tht it would prduce aggressive racing. Instead, it's done the exact opposite, because there's no incentive to race if you know you're not in the hunt for the win, or if the position you're battling for is not first place. I think that's another reason why there's a push to go with more conservative drivers who won't make mistakes that will cost them points, instead of racing aggressively and taking more chances, and that's not changing any time soon until NASCAR comes up with a system that rewards finishing up front. 2613. David posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The last one wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better than the one we have now." Amen. Well, it appears that Bruton Smith's logorrhea found its way to Brian France, as prize money for the last five positions will decrease by $4000 per position. It's not their fault they are start-and-parking!! They do it for a LIVING!! I hope this blows up in NASCAR's face in the Daytona 500. If five non-S&P cars were to crash out on the first lap, that would be hilarious. 2614. David posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post #2609 was me. 2615. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.06.2013 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, that's where IndyCar's points wins out. It doesn't too severely a bad finish, with 18-last basically getting the same amount of points, but the positions toward the front are so widely spaced out that it encourages drivers to make risky moves that the fans love to see. 2616. David posted: 02.06.2013 - 10:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It doesn't too severely a bad finish" Please clarify. Josh Wise will be running the #35 car for Front Row Motorsports for 2013 and beyond. 2617. Daniel posted: 02.06.2013 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chad Hackenbracht has signed a development deal with TriStar Motorsports. 2618. Sean posted: 02.06.2013 - 12:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "cjs, that's where IndyCar's points wins out. It doesn't too severely a bad finish, with 18-last basically getting the same amount of points, but the positions toward the front are so widely spaced out that it encourages drivers to make risky moves that the fans love to see." The recent tinkering has made it worse. Bonus points for Indy 500 qualifying? Bonus points for Iowa heat race results? Half points for failing to start a race? 18th-24th used to score 12 points with 25th-33rd scoring 10; now 18th-24th will be scoring a sliding points total from 12-6 with 24th or worse scoring 6...there will barely be more than 24 cars most times so this may encourage cars to return to the track after DNFs a la Will Power at Fontana last year, and that's one of the things I've found very unprofessional about NASCAR over the years (and why I thought NASCAR should have the bottom positions scoring the same points, like IndyCar). And the worst - a bonus point for leading a race, JUST LIKE NASCAR (and NASCAR having bonus points strictly for leading a single lap is one of the most laughable things about its points system). Make it a point for all drivers to lead a race naturally and I can go along with it... The IndyCar points system was great in 2007, and it's still better than NASCAR's because of the gaps between the top positions, but man, are they messing with it lately... 2619. David posted: 02.06.2013 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always thought my system was great. Despite objections to the 2-point pole bonus (cjs, you don't need to go into that again), it's a good system for so-called "top-level consistency". As for the pole points, I figured that since winning the championship is a team effort, the pole points can be "team points". Now, those 2 points could just be awarded to the owner for their standings, just to spice things up a little, but since I have already calculated seven full seasons with the current format (2002-2008, and 1981 and 2012 are almost done, but I haven't worked on them in a long time), I probably shouldn't change it now. I designed my system about two years ago, before I discovered the intelligent posters at R-R, so had I read your arguments first, I might have been inclined to leave off the pole points. "so this may encourage cars to return to the track after DNFs a la Will Power at Fontana last year, and that's one of the things I've found very unprofessional about NASCAR over the years (and why I thought NASCAR should have the bottom positions scoring the same points, like IndyCar)." Although I don't think 25th and down should score the EXACT same points, my system is a compromise. Starting at the 26th position, every fourth position drops one point. This makes it very difficult to make up points by returning to the track with a damaged/handicapped car. "And the worst - a bonus point for leading a race, JUST LIKE NASCAR (and NASCAR having bonus points strictly for leading a single lap is one of the most laughable things about its points system). Make it a point for all drivers to lead a race naturally and I can go along with it..." That's the way it's been since 1975. That is the main reason why the lap leader bonus is in my system. 2620. Sean posted: 02.06.2013 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, I'm totally fine with bonus points for the pole, especially if you scrap the bonus points for leading a single lap. I'm complaining about IndyCar offering additional points for qualifying at the Indy 500 (with all 33 qualifiers earning bonus points for qualifying, not just the polesitter) and Iowa (via its heat races). Those races should just have bonus points for the pole like any other race. Iowa especially should not be the second most important race (Pocono and Fontana are the other two races in the triple crown, and Long Beach has the second most history to Indy among the tracks on the current schedule). 2621. Sean posted: 02.06.2013 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's the way it's been since 1975. That is the main reason why the lap leader bonus is in my system." Yes, but why? Well, I understand why in 1975. There were so few cars on the lead lap in most of those races that pretty much everyone who did lead was an actual contender in the race, but now when drivers frequently get a bonus point simply due to taking the lead in the pits based on the location of their pit (even if they don't leave the pit first), it's pretty freaking appalling. And now IndyCar wants to COPY this when their points system was better (but again, getting worse with all 33 Indy qualifiers and the top 12 Iowa qualifiers scoring points...) And I think it's well past time we limit points to only the top 25 finishers, or at least have 26th-35th and 36th-43rd scoring the same points... I understand why everyone scored points in the 1975 points system (NASCAR wanted to encourage people to run the full schedule), but now I just think it's out-of-date. Still better than what they replaced it with, however... 2622. Sean posted: 02.06.2013 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Long Beach has the second most history to Indy among the tracks on the current schedule)." Whoops, actually Milwaukee arguably has more than Indy, but Long Beach is viewed as more important. If any race should get special bonus points for IndyCar qualifying, I guess it should be the 500 (but I think all races should be treated equally in any season schedule). If any other race(s) should, it should be Long Beach, Pocono, and/or Fontana, but I already made that clear in the previous post. Now what I don't understand is the whining from the IndyCar fans who are/were also F1 or CART fans and think that less than half of the field should score points because that's how those series worked. There are merits to those systems just as there are merits to the system IndyCar had. I don't really think one is better than the other... They're all better than NASCAR's. 2623. Daniel posted: 02.06.2013 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reed Sorenson will run the full Nationwide schedule in The Motorsports Group's #40. 2624. Paul posted: 02.06.2013 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Morgan Shepherd will attempt the Nationwide race at Daytona in a Dodge with a Penske engine under the hood. Shepherd drove Dodges last year, and will run a Dodge at least for the first race because it was the only engine his team could find at this point. This reminds me of 2004 when several Busch Series teams fielded Pontiacs for the first part of the season, despite Pontiac having already pulled out of the sport. Shepherd says he will run the first race and hopefully more if sponsorship can be found, hoping to run a full season once again. 2625. Spen posted: 02.06.2013 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: Nice to know there's a fellow Snicket fan on this board. 2626. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, that's one thing I like better about the current point system NASCAR is now using, one point per position, because I don't really think one point means all that much in the overall scheme of things. For instance, last year there was a 3-4 RACE gap between 35th and 36th at season's end, and the championship margin ended up being about a full race at 39 points. And actually, pro-rated, the bonus for leading a lap is less than what it used to be, because in the Latford system, there was a five-point bonus for officially leading the race, which from 11th on down was nearly a TWO-position bump in the points payout. Now, it's just a one-position bump in the points payout. My point, and I believe yours, is that there should be a bigger gap from the points payout for the top positions per position than lower n the race order, and currently in NASCAR, there is no such thing, but one point per postion below 10th place is actually a good thing, because it doesn't mean all that much to gain one position back there. My complaint is that moving up from third to second in a race does not mean any more than moving up from 33rd to 32nd, and that's just dead wrong. With he current system, it should bethree points in the top five, except for first and second, which should be five points, and two fr each position in the second five to make racing up front more competitive. In short, there's no real incentive to try to gain positions up front. I know I would tell my driver to stay in third instead of to try for second, because it's just not worth it. 2627. David posted: 02.06.2013 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm a fan of all underdogs, Spen. I was just shocked to see John Sears in second. I guess that is mainly due to the fact that he made more starts than anyone, outside of Elmo Langley. But still, it seems unlikely that he would finish second. His L.G. DeWitt-owned team was only relevant 69.57% of the time, and they had a Finish Deviation (David Smith stat alert!) of 10.1. 2628. Paul posted: 02.06.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Speeds at the Darlington tire test today were up with the Gen-6 cars. Carl Edwards reportedly hit 193 mph entering turn 1, which is unheard of at that race track. I don't know if this will mean more wrecks because of the faster speeds on the tricky oval or if the cars have good enough traction to be able to drive that fast into the corners without much risk, but apparently a lot of drivers liked it. Clint Bowyer says that MWR did not overachieve in 2012. Does he not know the mediocre history of that organization? Also, the Sporting News released a list of which active drivers would one day be enshrined in the NASCAR Hall of Fame. I clicked on the link expecting to see about 5-7 drivers on it, with a few obvious ones like Johnson and Gordon, and a few debatable ones like Kenseth and Bobby Labonte. But to my chagrin, there were SEVENTEEN drivers on that list. Oh boy, this should be fun. Let's take a look: 1. Jimmie Johnson: 399 starts, 60 wins, 166 top fives, 248 top tens, 29 poles, 5 championships, 11 top ten points finishes. HOF? Definitely. 2. Jeff Gordon: 689 starts, 87 wins, 298 top fives, 414 top tens, 72 poles, 4 championships, 18 top ten points finishes. HOF? Definitely. 3. Tony Stewart: 500 starts, 47 wins, 174 top fives, 282 top tens, 14 poles, 3 championships, 13 top ten points finishes. HOF? Yes. 4. Matt Kenseth: 472 starts, 24 wins, 126 top fives, 228 top tens, 8 poles, 1 championship, 9 top ten points finishes. HOF? Probably. 5. Mark Martin: 854 starts, 40 wins, 270 top fives, 448 top tens, 55 poles, 5-time championship runner-up, 17 top ten points finishes. HOF? Yes. 6. Brad Keselowski: 125 starts, 9 wins, 24 top fives, 43 top tens, 2 poles, 1 championship, 2 top ten points finishes. HOF? Too early to tell. 7. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: 469 starts, 19 wins, 105 top fives, 182 top tens, 11 poles, 5 top ten points finishes. HOF? No. 8. Bobby Labonte: 690 starts, 21 wins, 115 top fives, 203 top tens, 26 poles, 1 championship, 7 top ten points finishes. HOF? Very debatable. 9. Kurt Busch: 435 starts, 24 wins, 89 top fives, 174 top tens, 15 poles, 1 championship, 5 top ten points finishes. HOF? Very debatable. 10. Kyle Busch: 293 starts, 24 wins, 93 top fives, 141 top tens, 10 poles, 4 top ten points finishes. HOF? Not right now. 11. Kevin Harvick: 430 starts, 19 wins, 91 top fives, 188 top tens, 5 poles, 8 top ten points finishes. HOF? No. 12. Jeff Burton: 655 starts, 21 wins, 132 top fives, 248 top tens, 6 poles, 8 top ten points finishes. HOF? No. 13: Greg Biffle: 366 starts, 18 wins, 81 top fives, 144 top tens, 12 poles, 5 top ten points finishes. HOF? No. 14. Denny Hamlin: 259 starts, 22 wins, 80 top fives, 128 top tens, 12 poles, 6 top ten points finishes. HOF? Not right now. 15. Carl Edwards: 301 starts, 19 wins, 92 top fives, 157 top tens, 11 poles, 5 top ten points finishes. HOF? Not right now. 16. Ryan Newman: 404 starts, 16 wins, 87 top fives, 166 top tens, 49 poles, 6 top ten points finishes. HOF? Only if poles mean more than wins. 17. Danica Patrick: 10 starts, 0 wins, 0 top fives, 0 top tens, 0 poles, 0 top ten points finishes. HOF? Give me a break. Honestly, only the first two are unanimous Hall of Famers in NASCAR today, Johnson and Gordon. Stewart will make it only because he has three championships and has more wins than Mark Martin, who will also get in based on longevity and consistency. Kenseth has the best chance out of the four drivers with one Cup championship to get in. I consider Labonte and Kurt to be debatable solely because they each have a championship, but if not for that I would have said no. And while Brad does have a championship, joining Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon as the only drivers to win a title in their first three seasons, he has only run three full seasons. Can't we wait awhile and just enjoy the moment without putting a label on him? As for the rest of the drivers that are on the opposite side of the debate, I think Kyle, Denny, and Carl have Hall of Fame talent, but their inconsistencies and lack of championships hurt them. I would rank Carl ahead of the other two because he has scored the most points in a season twice ('08, '11), despite not winning the championship either year. They still have time to turn that around and become elite Cup drivers, but right now they are simply in the "very good to great" range. I don't consider Junior to be HOF worthy because his numbers are very similar to Kurt's, except he doesn't have a Cup title, which I think is Kurt's only HOF credential. Burton could have gotten in if he had a career's worth of his '97-'00 results, even if he never won a title along the way. And Harvick, Biffle, and Newman were never more than very good Cup drivers during their careers (although the first two would have a shot, along with Kyle and Carl, if the voters judged drivers based on their whole NASCAR careers across each series, not just Cup). As for Danica, all I'm going to say is that her ass must smell really nice for the media to continuously shove their noses up it. I'd sooner see Martin Truex, Jr. or Paul Menard get in because at least they know how to win Nationwide races in Junior's equipment. 2629. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.06.2013 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To put Danica Patrick would demand one thing: That Sara Christian go in first. 2630. murb posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me try to break down how I see this. The Current Crop of Drivers: HOF or NOT? The For Sures - Jeff Gordon - Jimmie Johnson - Tony Stewart - Mark Martin The Shoulds - Matt Kenseth The Debatables - Bobby Labonte - Kurt Busch - Dale Earnhardt Jr The Good Drivers, But Not Hall of Famers - Jeff Burton - Kevin Harvick - Greg Biffle - Ryan Newman - Clint Bowyer The Let's Wait And Sees - Brad Keselowski - Kyle Busch - Denny Hamlin - Carl Edwards The Abso-freaking-lutely Nots - Danica Patrick - "Brainless" Brian France - Bruton Smith - Danica Patrick's PR Rep - John Darby - "Cheatin'" Chad Knaus - Michael Waltrip - The "Sprint Motor Cup Speed Series" Guy - Danica Patrick's Personal Trainer 2631. Eric posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is my take on their drivers: Jimmie Johnson - Anyone who doesn't think he belong in the hall of fame needs their vote taken away. 60 wins in any era puts you into a racing Hall of fame. Jeff Gordon - He is a first ballot hall of fame driver. Tony Stewart - I don't know why Paul only thinks that he'll on make on 3 championships. Tony has 2 crown jewel wins in 2 brickyard 400's. Tony also is 3 wins away from being in the 50 win club. Any driver who has 50 wins gets in. Matt Kenseth - He is a hall of fame driver. What he did in the last 2 seasons made a stronger argument. Even with Gibbs at his age, he'll be making case even stronger. Mark Martin - He is a Hall of Fame driver. Paul is wrong about claiming Mark only gets by longevity and consistency. I don't think a driver needs championships to get into the NASCAR Hall of fame if you have enough wins. Mark passes my test of if a driver is a hall of fame or not. Mark was a top 5 driver in the 1990's. I only have Rusty, Dale Sr, Jeff, Dale Jarrett ahead of Mark Martin when it comes to drivers of the 1990's. The fact is you can't do the 1990's without Mark Martin. Brad - why is he even mentioned for a driver that is so young in their career. I don't have a reading on him. Dale Jr - He is a borderline case. I think he would have been in if he didn't peak in his first 5 season. Based on his first 5 season, you would think he would have over 30 wins by now. What does for rest of his career determines if he is a hall of fame driver. Being a 2 time Busch series driver does help his case. Bobby Labonte - He barely gets in. He is Busch series champion and being a cup champion mentions something. Bobby had 2 great seasons in 1999 and 2000. His problem is the fall of his career. I haven't seen a driver fall so fast after winning a cup championship at the age of 36. Dale Jarrett's fall was more on father time finally kicking in. Kurt Busch - He's still in his prime as a driver. I think he's not much of a bobble case as Bobby Labonte. If Kurt wins more races, he's going to be inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame with no questions. Kyle Busch - It is too early to talk about hall of fame for him. Kyle is only going to be 28 years old. If he wins over 30 races in his cup career, I don't think anyone would claim Kyle wouldn't go into the Hall of Fame. Kevin Harvick - No hall of fame at this point. If Buddy Baker gets in, Kevin has a chase to inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame. I am saying that because Buddy Baker had a lot of Majors, but only had 19 wins in his cup career. What Kevin does at Stewart-Haas determines his Hall of Fame chances. Jeff Burton - I think he's borderline. His prime was short. I compare him to Dale Jr. that way. If Dale Sr. didn't die, I think race fans would have seen more out of him. I know for a time that Jeff Burton was involved in getting NASCAR safer after Dale's death. I though Jeff had a good comeback from 2006 to 2008, but he was not on the same level as he was from 1997 to 2000. Gregg Biffle - Borderline at this time. I think his case really stands on how much stock the voters put into his Truck Series and Busch series championships. I thought he had a very good cup career to this point. My question with him is when father time starts to affect him since Greg is now 43. If age doesn't catch up to him for the next 2 to 4 years, I think he's odds would improve because of his win totals. Denny Hamlin - he's on there too soon. He only has been in the cup series since 2006 and he's only 32 years old. 23 wins at his age means he'll be inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame once his career is over if he continues to win. Any driver that has 30 career cup wins should be guaranteed a spot into the Hall of fame. Carl Edwards - another borderline case. 19 wins is good, but he needs another big win season to get in. Carl to me doesn't win a lot in a season outside of his 2008 season. Ryan Newman - no way. 16 wins is good, but this comes from a driver that never had a top 5 points finish. His other problem is his first two season as a cup driver was was best ever as a cup driver. Danica Patrick - if she gets in the NASCAR Hall of fame, it becomes a joke. I think Kasey Kahne has a better chance than she does. My other problem with her for the Hall of Fame is Sara Christian would have a better case than she does. Sara was one of the early drivers in NASCAR and she had a top 5 finish in a cup race. I can even make a case for Janet Guthrie ahead of Danica Patrick. 2632. Eric posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My list of Drivers of the 1990's before Mark Martin was in any order. My ranking of top 5 drivers of the 1990's is Dale Sr, Jeff Gordon, Rusty, Dale Jarrett and Mark Martin. 2633. Eric posted: 02.06.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I disagree with Chad Knaus not being in the Hall of Fame. I am saying that because there already is a cheater in the NASCAR Hall of Fame. Junior Johnson was a great driver and owner, but he is also one of the biggest cheaters in NASCAR History. Andy Petree was crew member of Junior Johnson and he saw crew members of his own team distracting NASCAR officials after a race so they can take illegal stuff out of a race car without being caught. If Smokey Yunick, Gary Nelson, and Jeff Hammond gets inducted into the NASCAR Hall of fame, there is no reason for Chad Knaus not being inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame. 2634. cjs3872 posted: 02.06.2013 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, what Carl Edwards said about the extreme speed a Darlington is exactly why I say they racing will not be very good this year. Earlier this week, Rusty Wallace said that the lighter weight of the cars will allow Goodyear to go with a softer tire, which in his view would make the racing better. It will on the shorttracs, but Goodyear s still going to have to go with a very hard tire because another thing the lighter cars will do is that it will cause the speeds to go way up, and there's only so much in terms of speed that the tire will take. That was proven at Michigan last year when they had to change the tire in the middle of the race weekend because they were going much faster than expected. They're going to have to run much harder tires becuase the speeds are going to be so high, just to make sure they last one complete 80-mile fuel run, because if they don't run hard tires, they're going to blow every 30-40 laps on the mid-size tracks and 20-25 laps on the big speedways. Everyone remembers Bill Elliott running 210.364 MPH at Daytona in 1987, which was more than 5 MPH over his 1985 qualifying record there. The two things that allowed that to happen were that they ran a softer cmpound tire, and the weight of the cars was decreased by 200 lbs., from 3700 to 3500. Those two things, along with the new nose Ford got that year, was what caused the speeds to jump 5 MPH, which was the biggest single-year speed increase at Daytona since 1972, not counting 1979, when the track was repaved following the 1978 Firecracker 400. And since everyone is predicting Hall of fame candidacy for the current drivers, I guess I'll have to put my two cents in, and come up with my list of curent drivers and their Hall of Fame candidacy. And there are more current drivers that I think are sure Hall of Famers than most would think. In fact, I can think of 14 right of the bat. Here's the list: First-Ballot Locks: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. Jimmie Johnson 3. Tony Stewart Certain Hall of Famers: 4. Mark Martin 5. Matt Kenseth 6. Bobby Labonte 7. Kyle Busch 8. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 9. Terry Labonte (still runs occasionally) Probable Hall of Famers: 10. Denny Hamlin 11. Greg Biffle (championships in two NASCAR series, 16 Cup wins) 12. Kurt Busch (if he hasn't burned too many bridges) 13. Carl Edwards 14. Kevin Harvick (Nationwide Series champion, has won nearly every big race in the Cup Series) And let's remember it's the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the Cup Series Hall of Fame, so when I made this list, I wasn't thinking about just the Cup Series, but the lower series in combination with the Cup Series, which is why I think that Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Kyle Busch, and Bobby Labonte are locks for the Hall someday. Yes, there are more active drivers (14) that I think will be in the Hall of Fame than many think, and many of them either are, or will be locks in the future. 2635. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I clearly said that Stewart will get in not only because he has three championships, but because he has more wins than Mark Martin, who himself is a Hall of Famer. And also, what I said about Mark making it in on consistency and longevity is true. He has been very consistent for a very long period of time, and I even mentioned how he has 17 top ten points finishes in 23 full-time seasons. I wasn't being very descriptive about Mark's success simply by saying "consistency and longevity," I'll admit that. But that's the truth. He certainly won't get in because of his number of championships, which may be the only saving grace for Kurt Busch and Bobby Labonte to get in, but his career-long consistency over an extended period of time, as well as five runner-up points finishes (which I also mentioned), are what gets him into the Hall of Fame. cjs, I mentioned that Harvick, Kyle, Carl, and Biffle could all get in if the voters look at their lower level success, because none of those four are Hall of Fame worthy simply by their Cup careers at this point. Of course, it should be noted that each of them except for Biffle achieved the majority of the lower series success AFTER they became full-time Cup drivers, but I digress. And if it is in fact the NASCAR Hall of Fame, and not the Cup Series Hall of Fame, then Ron Hornaday has to be a lock for the HOF as well. He is the all-time wins leader in the Truck Series with 51 wins, four championships in the Truck Series (one of only five drivers in NASCAR history with at least four championships on the national circuit), a 66.5% career top ten percentage, had at least one win in each of his first 12 full-time seasons (which ended this past season), and finished 7th or higher in the standings 12 times. Plus, he has four career Nationwide Series wins and finished in the top five in points in each of his three full-time seasons. His Cup career wasn't nearly as successful, but simply looking at his overall record, Ron Hornaday certainly deserves to go into the Hall of Fame as well. 2636. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, My predicting was really based on the article Sporting News on 17 drivers mentioned from picture by picture. Sporting news had nothing on Terry Labonte. Terry is no brainer as a Hall of Fame Driver, but I am guessing Sporting news overlooked him and shouldn't be a shocker since Terry doesn't race a lot anymore in a season. Terry is an active driver, but has been part time since 2006. You shouldn't make it like everyone has forgotten that it is the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the Cup Series Hall of Fame. How do you explain me mentioning about Dale Jr. that being a time Nationwide Champion does help his if I forgot that is the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the Cup Series Hall of Fame? I also mentioned about Bobby Labonte that being a Busch series champion and Cup series champion means on the same post that I talked about Dale Jr. I even mentioned Greg Biffle being a Busch Series and Truck series Champion. The catch is I think his case really stands on how much stock the voters put into his Truck Series and Busch series championships. I made that statement because of one ESPN's NASCAR writers last year mentioned on a chat that Greg Biffle was a long shot for the Hall of Fame and that writer was only looking at Gregg's cup career. There is a problem with mentioning Kyle Busch being a championship. He has the same issues as Brad,Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick and Clint Boyer has when all of them were Busch series/Nationwide Series champions while they were already cup driver regulars for cup teams that they also raced for Nationwide Championship with despite being a cup regular. Kevin's 2001 championship wasn't on Kevin's ego considering the death of Dale Sr since Kevin wasn't planned being a cup regular when the 2001 season got started. The only thing I forgot about Kevin Harvick was him being part of Kevin Harvick inc. since the organization how two truck championships with Ron Hornaday. Kyle Busch won a lot of Busch/Nationwide series races with JGR. I know Kyle won Nationwide/Busch series races with Hendrick also. The thing is JGR uses their Nationwide program to win owner championships since their drivers can't go for the Nationwide Championship anymore. All this means Kyle has a big advantage in the Nationwide series at JGR because the amount of time he has on the track. I compare what Kyle did to what Mark Martin did at Roush, but the catch was Mark didn't even try running a full time schedule when already was running full time in the cup series. That means the cup regulars had a big advantage that NASCAR didn't try to stop to a point before 2011. The Buschwacking was getting out hand when NASCAR stopped Cup regulars going for Nationwide champions at the same time. Cup regulars were running the Nationwide series/Busch full time for championships to further their ego from getting their butt kicked by Jimmie Johnson like DaleSrFanForever used to call it the "Jimmie Johnson rehabilitation tour". Cup Regular did do Busch series races time to time before 2001, but never tried the whole season. Owners and drivers picked up on what Kevin Harvick pulled off in 2001 by running every cup race after Dale's death and running the whole Nationwide series schedule in the same season. What Kevin did in 2001 had consequences to the Busch Series/Nationwide series for years to come although it wasn't RCR or Kevin's fault in 2001. Having established cup drivers that win Busch Series/Nationwides championships while going for a cup championship isn't exactly the same thing as a Busch series regular winning a Busch Series championship because the cup drivers that won a series full time has a huge advantage in track time and are on teams that are on very good cup teams. Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards won their Busch Series/Nationwide series championship when they were already are already stars in the cup. What happened in the 2000's before NASCAR stopped cup drivers going for Truck or Nationwide series championships was basically cup drivers hurting the future of NASCAR in terms of preventing up coming drivers to get a competitive seat in the Busch/Nationwide series. How the voters look upon the era that Cup Regulars were winning Busch Series/Nationwide champions in the same season they were running full time in cup remains to be seen. 2637. cjs3872 posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I did not include Hornaday in my listing because he's not a current Cup driver. Obviously with over 50 wins and four championships in the Truck Series, and a few wins in the Nationwide Series, he's also a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame someday. I was just listing current Cup drivers, and I listed them in three categories to separate them. And I may or may not go into the accomplishments of the five third-tier drivers I had on my list, but there are 14 drivers today that I would consider have at least a probable chance at the Hall of Fame, and Ryan Newman may get on the list of borderline candidates as well if he gets to 20 wins. The thing going against Newman is his lack of success in NASCAR's lower series. Actually, as a 3-time winner of the Coca-Cola 600 and entering the prime of his career with an elite team, I think Kasey Kahne may put himself in that third-tier grouping within a year or two himself, especially if he gets some big wins other than the 600, and I mean races like the Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, and Southern 500, the latter of which he should have won two years ago, and he's always a threat at Darlington in the #5 car that both Terry Labonte and Mark Martin have won that race in. One thing that Kasey's done in his more recent victories is diversify, as of his last seven wins, he's won at some driver's tracks, such as Pocono (the triangle oval), Sonoma (a road course), Phoenix, and Loudon since 2008. 2638. jabber1990 posted: 02.07.2013 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am going to say something controversial about the HOF for the first several years (10 or so) lets worry about the people whom built the sport as well as some of the biggest names that evolved into household names, so basicly Jeff Gordon needs in soon, or now, in my opinion the first class was perfect so after were done with the foundation of the sport then we can break down to the technical details. also lets decrease class size in the future 2639. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 2:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The class size is fine. If anything, NASCAR should have inducted more people, around 12-20, in its first class back in 2010, and then induct five people every year after that. 2640. cjs3872 posted: 02.07.2013 - 8:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, NASCAR took a cue from the Pro Football Hall of Fame when they made Bill France, Sr. the Hall of Fame's first inductee. George Halas, one of the NFL's founding fathers, was the first man inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1963, as he should have been. But I agree that they should have done the same by inducting 10 in it's first class. But then again, the very fist class inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame was only four members. The Pro Footbal Hall of Fame inducted 25 in it's first class 50 years ago. 2641. Jim Davis posted: 02.07.2013 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And let's remember it's the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the Cup Series Hall of Fame..." I'm not so sure about this. Do we really want to put a driver or crew chief or owner in the NASCAR Hall of Fame because they were legendary in the Whelan Southern Modified Tour? "Danica Patrick - if she gets in the NASCAR Hall of fame, it becomes a joke." That raises interesting questions. What would Patrick (or any other woman for that matter) have to do to be Hall of Fame worthy? Should the bar be as high as any male driver or lower because she's a pioneer in a male dominated sport? Wendell Scott was on the Hall of Fame ballot with 1 cup win. Does 1 cup win legitimize Patrick? 5 wins? 10 wins? A championship? 2642. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 9:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) jabber1990, Jeff Gordon is one of NASCAR's biggest names for drivers ever, but he shouldn't be inducted the Hall of Fame yet because he is active as a driver and that is how NASCAR Hall of fame works. Jeff Gordon is still capable of adding career wins in his career. The same thing is true with Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart. Remember a hall of Fame works in sports for players and drivers is they have to be retired first. That means the NASCAR Hall of Fame class quality from a cup driver standpoint in some classes wouldn't be that strong, but that is why the NASCAR Hall of Fame allow retired drivers from lower divisions in besides owners, crew chiefs, and contributors to NASCAR on a ballot. 2643. 83andJoe posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I'm not so sure about this. Do we really want to put a driver or crew chief or owner in the NASCAR Hall of Fame because they were legendary in the Whelan Southern Modified Tour? Why not? Also: Darrell Wallace Jr will be running full time in Trucks for KBM this year. 2644. jabber1990 posted: 02.07.2013 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why does Carl Edwards have at least 5 primary sponsors on his car but Greg Biffle has just 1? isnt Carl the guy whom is more marketable? or is that why Cause Carl is more marketable? 2645. jabber1990 posted: 02.07.2013 - 12:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why does Carl Edwards have at least 5 primary sponsors on his car but Greg Biffle has just 1? isnt Carl the guy whom is more marketable? or is that why Cause Carl is more marketable? 2646. Scott B posted: 02.07.2013 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The difference between Wendell Scott and Danica Patrick that Wendell had to face the hardships of a system that was stacked against him, whereas Danica's "minority" status is something that's worked in her favor. I have no problem with Wendell Scott being an early inductee because aside from being a pioneer, there is a tremendous "what-if" factor around him. Had he been offered top rides with factory supported teams, just how good would his numbers be? We'll never know for sure, but I think we can all agree he be sitting on more than one win. I would be OK with the HOF setting the bar a bit lower for someone who is a pioneer in a way that contributes to the sport beyond what their stats show. That said, they still have to prove they had some level of talent that justified them being in the big show, beyond being just a novelty. If Danica wins a Cup championship, I'd be 100% on her deserving the HOF. One race win, she'd certainly be voted in, but I'd be less enthusiatic about it, especially if it was a fuel mileage win or a great call by her crew chief that got her to victory lane. No wins, but some repectable finishes in end of the season points? Now we are deep in a grey area. As far as success in lower series, I think drivers who get in on that criteria will be few and far between. Richie Evans is deserving. Someone like Red Farmer has a good case. I don't expect Travis Kvapil's one truck series championship to get him nominated, though. If the induction class remains at 5 per year, all drivers with double digit Cup wins will be in fairly soon. That list is at 57 now, including active and inactive drivers. Even allowing for non-driver inductions, it would be no more than a 20-year process. 2647. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jim Davis, What Danica Patrick needs to do is different from earlier women in the NASCAR series. The standard of women in NASCAR as a drivers is different now because today's female NASCAR driver's aren't even pioneers when it comes to female drivers despite there not being a lot of them in the history of the cup series from NASCAR.. Danica Patrick is not a pioneer as a female NASCAR driver because the female NASCAR driver happened in 1949. That means Danica can't be the first cup female driver in NASCAR and Danica can't be considered a true pioneer as result despite there not being a lot female drivers on a cup level. Sara Christian raced in the NASCAR cup series in 1949 and 1950. Sara had a top 5 race finish in 1949 and another top 10 race finish. She had 2 in 6 cup starts in 1949. What Danica needs to do is win races because that is what female drivers haven't done yet on the cup level. She would only need even 1 career cup win to be considered because of the fact is Danica would be in the NASCAR history books as the first women to win a NASCAR race in the top 3 series. Wendell Scott got on the Ballot because he was the first black to race in NASCAR and later on became a cup winner with one win. Wendell also did at a time when being a minority meant facing hardships in racing. 2648. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So will Jim Roper be inducted into the Hall of Fame as well. After all, he himself was a pioneer, being the first white male driver to win an official NASCAR race in 1949, leading the way for many, many, many other white males to win NASCAR races. Also, just as I predicted, Blake Koch will race full-time for SR2 Motorsports in the #24 car. Co-owner and part-time driver Benny Gordon will serve as his crew chief. 2649. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) jabber1990, Carl Edwards having at least 5 primary sponsors doesn't exactly mean he is more marketable than Greg Biffle. What you have to understand is the amount of primary sponsors depends on how many races the sponsor wants to be on the hood of the car and how much the sponsor is willing to pay in a season. The fact is some cup sponsors don't want to do a lot races a season despite who the driver. 2650. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drivers from lower NASCAR should be allowed to be in the Hall of Fame, but there is a catch for what is allowed. My belief if a driver wins a lower league NASCAR Championship, that driver most not be a full time cup driver that is going for the cup championship in the same year when it comes to Hall of Fame consideration. The fact is if a cup driver is going for a cup championship Like Kevin Harvick did in 2006. Kevin's Busch series championship in 2006 shouldn't count for as part of a NASCAR Hall of Fame material. 2651. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I forgot to mention also with drivers from lower NASCAR series need to have multiple championships in terms of their lower cup series career like Jimmy Spencer for being considered for the NASCAR Hall of fame or a legend. 2652. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Jim Roper shouldn't be considered to be in the Hall of Fame unless he raced in other NASCAR divisions. I don't believe on having special standards either, but whites were a majority and they didn't face discrimination from their color of their skin in racing or the fact they were male in racing also. Some female drivers before Danica did fact hardships because he do you explain Richard Petty's view of Janet Guthrie than before Danica came along? Richard Petty for a time felt females shouldn't be race cars. Yes, the king of NASCAR actually thought that unlike Dale Earnhardt Sr. Dale's thoughts were caused by how good his daughter Kelly Earnhardt was, but Kelly decided not to be a NASCAR driver. The other issue was trying to find sponsorship at the time for a female driver. People even claims Kelly was better than Dale Jr. 2653. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2013 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr shouldn't even be in HOF conversations of any kind. Period. 15 wins in his first 5 years was nice, and would have been nice building blocks for a HOF career had he not disappeared off the face of the Earth. Or at least he should have disappeared if he had a different name. 4 wins in 8 years? 2 in the last 5? No freaking way. He has quite simply been a waste of money, manpower, and talent since '05. And while Danica undoubtably deserves to be in the Paris Hilton Memorial Pop Culture Hall Of Fame for people who are famous for reasons nobody really understands (the Kardashians would have their own wing), her being in ANY racing HOF automatically takes away any legitimacy. 1 professional win since she left go karts some 15 years ago? Pitiful. 2654. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'd sooner put David Gilliland in the Hall of Fame, because he reached the top level of racing with virtually no help along the way. He cut his teeth for years in several of NASCAR's smaller series out west, often for his family-owned team, before getting the chance to go full time in what is now the K&N Pro Series West in 2004. That season he won a race, finished 3rd in the points, and was named Rookie of the Year. He followed that up with another top five points finish the following year before getting the opportunity to drive a part-time Busch Series schedule for Clay Andrews in 2006. That year he pulled off one of the biggest upsets in recent memory when he drove the single-car, part-time, pretty much unsponsored team to victory lane at Kentucky. His win came at the exact right time as it occurred just before the economy collapsed and teams began to hire drivers based on their sponsorship, rather than driving skills, and he wound up replacing Elliott Sadler for the struggling Robert Yates team in the Cup Series, winning a pole in his rookie season followed by a subsequent pole in the Daytona 500 the next season. He has never been with a very competitive team in his Cup career (unless you count the three races that he drove a 4th JGR car in 2009), but he truly earned his way up to the big leagues with his performances in the minor leagues of NASCAR. I'd sooner put in a driver who worked his way up the ladder the hard way, while having success at every level along the way, than put in someone who posed in a bikini and has been handed everything for the past 9 years because of their looks and "marketing ability". I wish this sport had a few more David Gillilands, drivers who busted their ass in the minor leagues and have continued to work hard just to survive on the Cup circuit, and a few less Danica Patricks, drivers who are constantly given opportunity after opportunity in racing based on their looks and exposure with the actual driving ability being near the bottom of the list. As for Junior, I have the same issue with him being included on a Hall of Fame list as I did when cjs included him on his top 40 list. He has been far too mediocre for far too long to be considered on of the greatest of all-time, which is what the Hall of Fame is supposed to be; a collection of the greatest drivers in NASCAR history. When a guy is in his mid-30s, is with the best team in the sport (and in '09 that was literally the case as his teammates finished 1-2-3 in the points), has the biggest sponsorship package in the sport, and goes through back-to-back seasons of crew chief changes, no wins, and no top 20 points finishes, he doesn't deserve to be listed among the greatest drivers of all-time. Put it this way: what he couldn't do from '09-'11 (win a race, finish in the top 20 in points more than once), Brian Vickers and Casey Mears did. Vickers finished top 20 in '05-'06, winning a race in the latter season, and Mears finished top 20 in '07-'08, winning a race in the first season. Judging by the fact that they have just three career Cup wins, that just makes Junior's bad seasons with the best team in NASCAR look much worse. Kyle Busch outperformed J.J. Yeley when he replaced him at JGR in '08. Mark Martin outperformed Casey Mears when he replaced him at HMS in '09. Great drivers always find a way to outperform their scrub counterparts, no matter what team or what the situation is. For Junior to be outperformed by two scrub drivers who preceded him at HMS, I think that disqualifies him from the running for Hall of Fame. Had he retired following the '06 season, a case could have been made for him. But now, I don't think anything that he does outside of winning a championship (which highly doubt will happen in 2013) will trump his overall underachieving since 2007. Oh, but he was rewarded for his efforts with a 7-year contract extension following his mediocre 2010 season, once again proving that talent doesn't really matter in NASCAR, so long as the owner loves you and you can bring in a lot of money to help fund the teams driven by your more focused teammates. 2655. David posted: 02.07.2013 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't even realize until now that Kyle Larson is running a full NNS schedule. That is awesome!! This year's Nationwide Series season will be so great. 2656. Spen posted: 02.07.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm a fan of all underdogs, Spen. I was just shocked to see John Sears in second. I guess that is mainly due to the fact that he made more starts than anyone, outside of Elmo Langley. But still, it seems unlikely that he would finish second. His L.G. DeWitt-owned team was only relevant 69.57% of the time, and they had a Finish Deviation (David Smith stat alert!) of 10.1." Those extra five races make a big difference. At Sears' average of 128 some-odd PPR, that adds up to an additional 640 points. Hylton did average 143 PPR, but that just wasn't quite enough with only 41 starts. Oh, and re-checking the points just now actually cost Hylton 10 points. 2657. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Dale Jr. didn't sign a 7 year contract in after his 2010 season. Dale got a contract extension was signed on Sept. 1st, 2011 and his contract runs through 2017. Dale was middle a slump though when that contraction was signed. Dale had a good 2011 season through race 14 before it went it went downhill. Dale did finish 7th in points, but it was one of the worst seasons for a driver to finish 7th in points ever during the chase era. Any driver that has 4 top 5's and 12 top 10's for 36 races doesn't sound like a driver that should be 7th in point to me. Without the chase, Dale would have been 11th in points. The only reason Dale had a 7th points finish during the chase is because other driver had a even worse 10 race stretch. I do think a think a driver going through a 10 race slump before getting a contract extension isn't something that driver should be rewarded for though. 2658. cjs3872 posted: 02.07.2013 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, if a driver if going to get into the Hall of Fame just on accomplishments in NASCAR's lower divisions, he better have accomplishments like Richie Evans, because even though he never started even one Cup race, he certainly belongs in the Hall of Fame, as does Ron Hornaday, Jr. sometime in the future, because his achievements in the Truck Series tower over anyone else's. And DSFF, Dale, Jr. should go into the Hall of Fame someday, because his Cup accomplishments, when combined with his Nationwide success (he did win two championships there) give him Hall of Fame status, in my view. The same goes for guys like Greg Biffle, Kevin Harvick, Bobby Labonte, and Kyle Busch. I'm not sure any of those drivers would be in the Hall of Fame discussion right now just on their Cup accomplishments, but when you combine their Cup accomplishments with what thy did in NASCAR's lower series, that's wha puts them over the top in my view. Again, among the current-day Cup drivers, Dale, Jr. is in that second group with Mark Martin, Matt Kenseth, both Labonte brothers, and yes, Kyle Busch, but only Terry Labonte and maybe Matt Kenseth get their on their Cup accomplishments alone. Only three current drivers, Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson, and Tony Stewart are what I consider "first-ballot locks", but I put Dale, Jr. in that next group of six. 2659. Daniel posted: 02.07.2013 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Reed will run a part time schedule in the Nationwide series for Roush Fenway Racing in their #16 Mike Harmon will run a part time schedule in the Nationwide series for his own team and will run the full-distance in those races. Mike Harmon Racing will also field trucks for multiple drivers, none yet announced, in the truck series. 2660. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Still not buying it cjs. Dale Jr in the HOF lowers the bar ridiculously low. Yeah he won back to back Bsch titles with DEI in his only two full time seasons, but so did Martin Truex a few years later while facing more week to week Cup competition. Even combining the two doesn't work at all for me. Not nearly enough to even warrant consideration. And it cannot be discounted how bad he has done at powerhouse HMS. 2 wins in 5 seasons, 3 playoff appearances that were each unremarkable to be kind. Here is my power rankings of active drivers of the HOF. And for the record, I completely ignore any lower tier accomplishments done while in a full time Cup ride except Harvick's '01 since his Cup deal wasn't planned. 1) Jimmie Johnson: Shattered the consecutive championship total, dominated the win column for 10 solid years, nobody else is even close to him during his tenure in Cup. 2) Jeff Gordon: Definitely a no brainer, great for a long period of time. 3) Tony Stewart: 3 titles, bound to be 50+ wins, another no brainer. 4) Mark Martin: The last of the "if their career ended right now, they are in" group. To be a contender for so long is beyond HOF worthy. Runner up for the title in '90, runner up again in '09 with 3 in between. Might not have the big trophy, but his win total and longevity puts him in easily. 5) Brad Keselowski: The start of the "if they continue as they are capable of" group. Why do I have him first? Cause he has proven he can do what the people behind him need to do to get there, win a title. Will need about 40 more wins and 2 or 3 more titles. Not out of the question by any means. 6) Denny Hamlin: Can light up the win column, but his 2010 collapse sticks to him like a skunk. If he keeps winning at his current rate and adds a title or two (hang me now) he will be in. 7) Matt Kenseth: I like Matt a lot, and yes he has a title, but that was a long time ago. Has only really come close once since. I expect his tenure at Gibbs to push his win total up far enough, and another title will clinch it. But those are unknowns at this point. Does his personality and driving style really fit post BLab Gibbs? I hope so, but I am more willing to bet on Brad (yay) and Denny (boo) to get what they need. 8) Kyle Busch: If he ever gets his head on straight. Has won a lot, but never even close to a title. He has also left so much controversy in his wake, he is gonna need to make up for that. 9) Kurt Busch: Has left too much wreckage in his wake. Has the title and a nice win count, but needs much more to counteract his awful antics. We are getting desperate at this point. 10) Carl Edwards: His peaks and valleys have been dizzying for such a relatively short career. Proven he can put up big numbers and contend for titles, just not in close succession. 11) Kevin Harvick: Has the big wins, but a curiously low overall win total. SHR would need to boost him like nothing else. I just haven't seen that from them except for the final 10 in '11. 2661. Eric posted: 02.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think who wins the plate races.majors, and the cup championship this season might change a little bit what active driver is in the NASCAR Hall of Fame. I don't see Jimmie getting the campionship or Brad repeating. That means the cup Championship is up to grabs. Here is my take on the drivers if they win a cup championship this year: Gregg Biffle - If he wins a cup championship, he'll be almost a lock into the NASCAR Hall of fame despite his cup win total because he would be the only NASCAR driver to have a Truck, Nationwide, and cup title. It is a long shot for him plus I don't know how many more years he has as a potential cup champion contender since he turned 43 a couple months ago. Denny Hamlin - I think he probably would be near a lock if he wins a cup championship because he is capable of have big win seasons. I can't rule out Denny winning a title. Kyle Busch - Winning a cup championship wouldn't complete lock Kyle a Hall of Fame spot, but it would close. I don't see it happening though. His team blows up like volcano when ever he is in the chase it seems. Carl Edwards - winning cup championship would increase his odds some. His problem after the title is he hasn't won any majors outside of a Bristol night race. If Carl wins a cup championship this year, Jimmy Fenning is a lock for the NASCAR Hall of Fame. Matt Kenseth - DSS already mentioned what it would do for Matt's odds besides being in an elite group of drivers that have cup championships for 2 different organizations. Kasey Kahne - if he wins a cup championship this year, he'll increase his odds despite the fact he still wouldn't have great wins totals for a cup driver. I don't like his odds doing it though. Dale Jr. - Winning a cup championship increase his odds some. I have a hard time to see this happen though. Dale has to many questions going into this year. If Dale didn't have his 2 concussions, than I would increase the odds of him winning a cup championship. Tony Stewart- He's a lock, but his ranking all time would skyrocket with a 4th cup championship. I don't see that happening though. Tony Stewart has too many distractions as an owner this year. Danica might need a new sponsor, Ryan Newman signed a one year contract, preparing Kevin a championship caliber team for 2014, and Danica might need a new sponsor since godaddy.com is in their contract year as a sponsor. 2662. Jim Davis posted: 02.07.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Guys, if a driver if going to get into the Hall of Fame just on accomplishments in NASCAR's lower divisions, he better have accomplishments like Richie Evans, because even though he never started even one Cup race, he certainly belongs in the Hall of Fame, as does Ron Hornaday, Jr. sometime in the future, because his achievements in the Truck Series tower over anyone else's." This just will not work. You just can't penalize drivers for trying and failing to have great careers at the Cup level. Consider Joey Logano and two possible career paths: Joey Logano A, after his contract at Gibbs ends after the 2012 season, signs with Penske. He has no greater success there. He bounces from team to team throughout his career ending with about 5 cup wins but never rising above a 15th to 20th place finisher. Joey Logano B, after his contract at Gibbs ends after the 2012 season, accepts Gibbs' offer of a full time Nationwide ride. He really tears the series up, crushing the competition and racking up over a 100 wins and 5+ championships in a 20+ year career. Is Joey Logano B a lock for the Hall of Fame while Joey Logano A just a journeyman who never lived up to the hype? They're the same person, the same driver. It just makes no sense to penalize a driver for trying and failing at the Cup level and rewarding a driver who prefers to be a big frog in a much smaller pond. Now granted, many deserving drivers don't get the chances that others do but voting people into a Hall of Fame based on "what might of been" is also foolish. Do we really want to put Frank Kimmel in the NASCAR Hall of Fame because he never got a decent shot at the big time? A Hall of Fame has to be for actual accomplishments at the highest level with very few, universally agreed to, exceptions (Wendell Scott is worthy, in my opinion). Anything else is just a farce. 2663. murb posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Darrell Wallace Jr is gonna run full time in Trucks for KBM. Damn, with Kligerman, Coulter, and now Wallace, KBM looks pretty stacked for this year. I think that they should divide the Hall of Fame up into different wings or something. Have a Cup wing, an NNS wing, a Truck wing, a modified wing, etc. That way, the drivers/crew chiefs/owners from those individual series can be fully recognized and engraved into their respective series. 2664. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank Kimmel had his greatest success in ARCA, which is not a NASCAR series. If Richie Evans got in, why not Ron Hornaday? Evans never raced in one of NASCAR's top three series (obviously he couldn't compete in the Truck Series since he died before it started), and yet he is in the Hall of Fame based on his legendary numbers in the Modified Series. Should we just not put him in the Hall of Fame because we don't know whether he would have succeeded or failed in Cup? I think that argument is preposterous. The Hall of Fame is for the greatest drivers in NASCAR history, not the greatest Cup drivers in NASCAR history. There are a lot of NASCAR drivers who never got a fair shot in Cup (Ron Hornaday, Todd Bodine, Jason Keller, Randy LaJoie, Johnny Benson, Bobby Hamilton, Jeff Green) who were far better than drivers who have had similar or greater success in Cup because they were given a better shot to succeed (Joey Logano, Brian Vickers, Casey Mears, Paul Menard, Martin Truex, Jr.). Are those drivers in the second category better than those in the first? After all, they got a fair shot at Cup while the other ones didn't. You can't judge a driver necessarily by their Cup results, but rather how much they accomplished when given proper equipment at any given level. The Hall of Fame argument of "What did [Driver X], who was great in Nationwide/Trucks, ever accomplish in Cup?" is just as ridiculous as the debate on the pro football side that special teams players don't belong in the Hall of Fame. If a football player was ever the very best at his position, whether it be at quarterback, running back, linebacker, or kicker, they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. The same thing applies for NASCAR. If a driver was the very best in his series for an extended period of time, whether it be Cup (Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, Martin), Nationwide (Ingram, Ard, LaJoie, Kyle Busch), or Trucks (Hornaday, Sprague, Bodine, Setzer), then they are Hall of Fame. If they were great year after year after year (not "very good", but "great"), then they should be at least considered for the Hall of Fame. They could even add different wings to the driver's side of the Hall of Fame, by dividing it into "Cup", "Nationwide", "Truck", "Modified", and "K&N East/West". I'm not saying a great Nationwide or Truck Series driver should be voted in over a great Cup driver, but I do think a great second-tier or below driver should be considered before a good/above average Cup driver. The Hall of Fame should be covered with greatness from all walks of NASCAR, not just those who were fortunate to get an opportunity in Cup. I doubt we will see any of those guys voted in anytime soon, but years down the road when more and more of NASCAR's greatest drivers are voted into the Hall of Fame and fewer greats are left in limbo, NASCAR needs to start considering the great drivers from other divisions as well, not just Cup. The precedent has already been set by Richie Evans getting voted in last year, and I hope NASCAR doesn't make Evans the exception to the unwritten rule that only Cup drivers can be voted into the Hall of Fame. 2665. murb posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, nevermind about Darrell Wallace. There's a bunch of reports on the internet about this deal with KBM, but he himself said on Twitter that he has no idea where they are getting it from. So either he's right and the reports or false, or he's just ribbing us, lol 2666. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One thing I do like about Kyle Busch is that he's always giving drivers opportunities. He gave Brian Ickler, Josh Richards, David Mayhew, and German Quiroga their first break in one of NASCAR's top three divisions; gave Jason Leffler one last chance to remain relevant last season in the Truck Series; signed two solid young free agents this past offseason in Kligerman and Coulter; and now he has made a deal with JGR to give Bubba Wallace his first full-time ride on the national racing circuit. Heck, he even hired Colin Braun to be his Nationwide test/practice driver last year whenever he and Kurt had to miss a practice session. I can tell his heart is in the right place when he's running KBM, and that he feels a great amount of joy when his team does well. Probably the happiest I've ever seen Kyle was after the Nationwide race at Richmond when brother Kurt outraced Denny Hamlin for the win. I could see in his eyes and his grin-to-grin smile that that win meant a lot to Kyle. I can tell that he's a good guy by his actions away from the race track and how he acts towards other drivers in the garage area (remember when he was a good sport while Tony and Jeff were giving him shit about his pink car and firesuit at Richmond 2010?). If he can just keep his head on straight, not let his emotions following a loss get the better of him, and just learn how to have fun both during and after a race and not be such a brat towards his team and the media, he can be both likable and successful in the eyes of many race fans. Key word: "If". 2667. murb posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *are false 2668. Paul posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think it's either, murb. He said at the end of his tweet "Haven't gotten anything yet but we're close I think!" My guess is that the deal isn't final, and considering how KBM hasn't made a comment on this issue, but rather it was leaked out through the media, I'd say Wallace will drive for KBM in 2013. The deal isn't official, but I'd say the bulk of the work is over with and all they need is for the deal to go through and it will be official. It's possible that Wallace was ribbing us a little bit because his tweet was a little misleading, as he said both that he didn't know where the information came from and that he's close to closing the deal with KBM. 2669. cjs3872 posted: 02.07.2013 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I think Jimmy Fennig is already a lock for the Hall of Fame someday. Remember that Fennig, who won last year's Daytona 500 with Matt Kenseth, also won the Daytona 500 with none other than Bobby Allison all the way back in 1988 (the first NASCAR race for his current employer, Jack Roush), and already has a Cup championship with Kurt Busch in 2004. And though some might argue, Mark Martin's greatest seasons also came with Fennig calling the shots for him. Heck, Derrike Cope nearly won at Phoenix in 1995, coming in a close second to Ricky Rudd, with Fennig as crew chief (talk about miracles). And when Kenseth was floundering two or three years ago, it was Fennig that came to the rescue. Now it's Carl Edwards he has to revitalize, and judging by Edwards' attitude, he's well on his way to doing so. Now all he has to do is to stop Edwards from coming up short when it really counts, as he's finished second or third at least once in every big race (Daytona 500 and Southern 500 in 2011, Brickyard 400 and Firecracker 400 in 2008, all of them second place finishes, and a third in the 2006 Coca-Cola 600), but has never actually won any of them. The same is true regarding the championship, as he's let two or three of them slip away. Fennig knows how to win big. He's been doing that since 1987. Now he has to get Edwards over the hump, because I think he would be a very good winner of some of these big races he's never captured yet. And also, Denny Hamlin is getting very close to being in "lock" territory for the Hall of Fame. He's not just there yet, but another few wins, especally if he wins a few big races and/or a championship. If he does that, he'll be a lock for the Hall someday. And by the way, I don't view Kasey Kahne as a championship-caliber driver, but he's probably one of the top three on the next rung down. He's just got too many weak tracks. If he were to win at a place like Bristol, Martinsville, or a plate race (and he's been agonizingly close), I'll change my tune, but not until then. And Paul, Jack Ingram and Ron Hornaday, Jr. were dominant enough in the lower series they represented to go into the Hall of Fame, though I'm not quite sure about any of the others in the lower series. Some of the others will have to rely on a combintion of lower series sucess and Cup Series success to make it in the future. And murb, I do think the NASCAR Hall of Fame will eventually have to come up with new wings, not for different series, but rather for different parts of the sport. For instance, most of the Hall of Famers so far have been drivers, but there have also been crew chiefs and car owners inducted, and it's only a matter of time before media members go in, as well. what may eventually have tobe done is to have a wing for drivers, one for crew chiefs, one for car owners, and another for media people and contributors. That would be much like the Baseball Hall of Fame having separate wings for contributors, umpires, managers, and broadcasters. And the first media members to go into the Hall should be Chris Economaki, Bud Lindemann, Ken Squier, and Barney Hall. Of those, Economaki should be the first one in. 2670. Eric posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I didn't forgot about Jimmy Fenning's past including his 1988 Daytona 500. I thought he needed another Championship because is a overlooked crew chief by the media. He doesn't get the attention as a Chad Knaus despite all of Jimmy's accomplishments. I even looked up Jimmy Fenning's name on this site under cup champions section for his spelling his last name before post 2661 was posted since spelling isn't exactly my strength when Math actually is. This site under the cup section has listing of Years, cup driver the won the Championship, the driver's car owner, including other stuff mentioned in the crew chief. 2671. Eric posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, I also didn't forgot about Jimmy fenning with Mark Martin either. I remembered Mark's reign with Jimmy. I remembered Jimmy Fenning being top of Mark's pitbox in the starting in 1997 before being Kurt's crew chief in 2002. 2672. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Derrike Cope, did anyone else hear that he was hired to drive Go Green Racing's part-time Cup car about a month ago? That has to win the award for quietest silly season for this past offseason, because I check practically every website and news source there is on a daily basis during the offseason, and it wasn't until now that I found out. 2673. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ That should say "...quietest silly season move..." 2674. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmy Fennig was really the only crew chief to ever reign in Kurt Busch and get him to keep his head on straight for a long period of time. As a result, Kurt had his two best seasons in Cup in his first three seasons with Fennig in '02 and '04, winning the championship in the latter season. Since then, Kurt has been on a rampage with almost no guidance or leadership from the crew chief position to keep him calm during races. Jack Roush credited Fennig for his second championship as a car owner in 2004, the year he won it with Kurt. He did so at the post-race press conference following Matt Kenseth's win at Texas in 2011, his first win in over two years, while Fennig was his crew chief. Judging by how Kurt's career has sailed off course since he was fired from Roush's team, I'd say that that may have been the greatest display of crew chiefing in NASCAR's modern era, as Fennig got Kurt to do something that no other crew chief has done: Meet his potential as a race car driver. I've heard that Carl Edwards has been spending more time at the race shop this past offseason than he had been years prior, and seems more focused than usual this time around. A lot of us were skeptical of this pairing between Edwards and Fennig, but so far it sounds like the two are meshing well and Carl is taking extra steps to rebound from his dismal 2012 season. Also, the #99 team was the only team that brought two cars to the Daytona test last month, which tells me that they are more than prepared for this upcoming season. 2675. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 1:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ray Evernham says that he recently turned down an offer to return as a crew chief in the Sprint Cup Series. He wouldn't reveal what team that was, but did say it was a powerhouse team and it wasn't Hendrick Motorsports. If I were to guess, I'd say it was either MWR or RCR. I say MWR because they pondering adding a 4th full-time team for 2014, possibly with Brian Vickers as the driver, and it's possible they wanted a veteran crew chief to help kick start that program by running a part-time team in 2013. And I say RCR because Austin Dillon is planning on running at least 10 races this season, but doesn't yet have an official crew chief for those Cup races yet. He also said that he turned it down because despite still sometimes feeling the urge to compete, he doesn't think his style would fit well in today's NASCAR where mechanics have been largely replaced by people with engineering backgrounds. Plus, after being out of the game altogether for five years, and not serving as a crew chief for 13 years, I'd say the stars are not aligned for Evernham to return and be successful as a crew chief in this day and age. 2676. murb posted: 02.08.2013 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, that's interesting. I'm gonna guess it was Roush. We're all expecting a 1993 Jeff Gordon rookie season from Stenhouse, so why not have the same exact crew chief as Gordon had in 1993? Too bad it won't happen though. I've always thought that Ray was best as a crew chief (obviously). He's also a pretty decent broadcaster (he knows what he's talking about, unlike Brad Daugherty), but he was NOT very good as a car owner. He screwed over a potentially huge talent in Casey Atwood for Jeremy Mayfield (who had won races with Penske but had been incredibly inconsistent), he practiced that weird "team director" system instead of the regular crew chief system (which basically meant that these "team directors" had to get approval from Ray for EVERY LITTLE THING they did), he gave us the "Crocker Debacle", and then of course there was the shady deal with George Gillet. Ray Evernham: Legendary Crew Chief, Legendarily Bad At Running A Racing Organization. Take notes, Knaus. 2677. 83andJoe posted: 02.08.2013 - 3:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Still not buying it cjs. Dale Jr in the HOF lowers the bar ridiculously low. Yeah he won back to back Bsch titles with DEI in his only two full time seasons, but so did Martin Truex a few years later while facing more week to week Cup competition. Even combining the two doesn't work at all for me. Not nearly enough to even warrant consideration. There's one thing that needs to be remembered... It's the Hall of FAME. It is not the Hall of STATS. When it comes to /fame/, for better or for worse, deserved or not, the meter doesn't ping against the peg harder than it does for Junior. 2678. 83andJoe posted: 02.08.2013 - 3:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the Darrell Wallace deal: it's the usual "it's leaked, deny it until it's announced", I suspect - it's not supposed to be official until Saturday. 2679. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.08.2013 - 5:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NNS drivers who should get it, because their cars were far different from the Cup cars until the mid-90s... Jack Ingram, Sam Ard, Larry Pearson, Tommy Houston, Tommy Ellis, Randy Lajoie... CWTS (trucks are FAR FAR different from cars): Ron Hornaday, Jr., Todd Bodine, Jack Sprague, Mike Skinner, Ted Musgrave, Dennis Setzer, Joe Ruttman Cup guys who had HOF careers, but won't get in for various reasons: Jim Paschal, one of the greatest short-track racers ever... but that's exactly it, short tracks, not superspeedways, but he did have 2 World 600 wins, including the most dominant performance ever leading 335 of 400 laps in 1967. Jack Smith: To put it this way, he retired because Wendell Scott won. Dick Rathmann and Dick Hutcherson: both raced for only 4 years, both put up insane numbers even without winning a title. Both are top-10 all time in top-5%, with Hutcherson having the highest all-time. Hutcherson, though, was the car-builder of the best chassis in the sport up until his tragic death in a heart attack induced car accident in 2005. Bob Welborn: dominated convertibles, but only 9 cup wins Tiny Lund: dominated Grand National to the extent it went under due to lack of interest, but only 5 Cup wins. Marshall Teague: many wins in just a handful of starts, but had a major conflict with Big Bill Hershel McGriff: was a driver dependable to be competitive in any race car from 1950-2002, and is semi-competitive even now at 85 years old, but only 4 Cup wins. Charlie Jarzombek: one of the greatest Modified drivers ever... tragically died at Martinsville in 87, but never won the title because he was lucky enough to race against Richie Evans = no titles. Ralph Earnhardt: one of the greatest Sportsman drivers, but no Cup wins. 2680. Spen posted: 02.08.2013 - 8:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ralph does have that last name going for him, though. That'll probably get him in someday, long before arguably more deserving Sportsman champions like Mike Klapak, or Rene Charland. 2681. Eric posted: 02.08.2013 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, Hershel McGriff really shouldn't be count a cup driver. Yes, he had 4 cups. There is one problem. He didn't do a lot of cup races in a season outside 1954. He did most of his racing on the west coast on the lower levels of NASCAR matter of fact. 2682. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would induct Herschel McGriff under the "K&N East/West" wing of the NASCAR Hall of Fame. He was after all named one of the 50 greatest drivers in NASCAR history in 1998, and I think all 50 of those drivers should be inducted into the Hall of Fame one day. In fact, I would induct those 50 drivers first and foremost before I would consider anyone else, though I would make an exception for Jimmie Johnson and Tony Stewart. 2683. Spen posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just so everyone knows, I won't be on here much at all for the foreseeable future. My roommate/pseudo-girlfriend gets freaked out when I calculate results for old seasons, and she's instructed me to never, ever look up racing stuff again. So while she's here, I can't do much on this site. And I probably won't be watching any races this year, anyway. 2684. David posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's a shame, Spen. She sounds slightly nutty. 2685. Daniel posted: 02.08.2013 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #2672, Just checked the Go Green facebook page and Cope is not driving for them this year. 2686. jabber1990 posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I went to Jayski to look at some pictures of some cars, is Roush running all 3 Nationwide cars next year? and does Trevor have full-sponsorship on whichever car it is he his suppose to drive? 2687. jabber1990 posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I cant believe nobody mentioned this, if you don't have a sponsor on your sprint cup car what do you put on the roof of your car? 2688. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just checked the Go Green facebook page and Cope is not driving for them this year." Hmmm the deal must have not gone through at the last minute. Also I think they may be changing their Nationwide number from #39 to #79, with Jeffrey Earnhardt behind the wheel. 2689. 83andJoe posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The #6 and #60 will run full time while the #16 with Ryan Reed runs part time. Also, there has been zero confirmation on the Cope-Go Green rumor. It's a rumor, but nothing more. 2690. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "is Roush running all 3 Nationwide cars next year" Roush will be fielding two full-time entries and one part-time entry in the Nationwide Series this season. The full-time entries, #6 and #60, will be driven by Trevor Bayne and Travis Pastrana, respectively. The part-time entry, #16, will be driven by Ryan Reed for a few races. "does Trevor have full-sponsorship on whichever car it is he his suppose to drive?" I doubt that it will be full sponsorship because even Stenhouse wasn't sponsored for every race last season. But he should be sponsored for at least half of the events, as I know that both Cargill and Valvoline Next Gen are returning this season. "if you don't have a sponsor on your sprint cup car what do you put on the roof of your car?" I would presume nothing. However, if it were up to me, drivers would have to put one of three things on their roofs next to their numbers: Twitter username, phone number, or a picture of their "johnson"; three of the most commonly sent messages via social media and text messaging nowadays. 2691. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TriStar Motorsports said on their Facebook page that both Mike Bliss and Jeff Green will return in 2013, and that G-Oil would be returning as a sponsor, but they didn't say with which driver (probably Bliss). 2692. Daniel posted: 02.08.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would hope that leads to Jeff Green getting to run more full races as, if G-Oil is coming back, all 3 of their other driver would have full funding. 2693. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "When it comes to /fame/, for better or for worse, deserved or not, the meter doesn't ping against the peg harder than it does for Junior." Oh I have no doubt they will put June in the HOF when he gets eligible barring a huge swoon in popularity. It would be, as you said, a huge boon for them. But it will be outrageous to those of us actually care about the SPORT itself. "Ralph Earnhardt: one of the greatest Sportsman drivers, but no Cup wins." I'm honestly surprised he hasn't been on the ballot yet. Between his last name and his insane amount of wins and track championships on tracks in the Carolinas, plus that 1956 title in "what is now the NASCAR Nationwide Series" (seriously, somebody please hang me now) I would think he would have been mentioned. He was named one of NASCAR's 50 best drivers of its first 50 years. He is to the local dirt tracks what Richie Evans was to the Modifieds (the two grandfathers of NASCAR). Neither was interested in going full time to "what is now the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series" (I can provide the rope!), each choosing to stay close to home and be close with their family (something that Ralph's third child and oldest son did NOT do). "However, if it were up to me, drivers would have to put one of three things on their roofs next to their numbers: Twitter username, phone number, or a picture of their "johnson"; three of the most commonly sent messages via social media and text messaging nowadays." I know what Brett Favre would choose! 2694. David posted: 02.08.2013 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I got my February issue of NASCAR Illustrated today, which previews the 2013 NASCAR season (They've got Denny Hamlin, Elliott Sadler, and Ty Dillon as the predicted national champions, by the way). On one article that is about the lower-tier NASCAR teams, they have a sidebar that has analysis from Tommy Baldwin about these teams. For Germain Racing, he said: "They have a lot more money than we do and a lot more resources but they run the same as we do." That will happen if their driver has a -0.153 PEER. Ouch! 2695. Spen posted: 02.08.2013 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: To paraphrase a Dr. Hook song: "when you're in love with a bipolar woman, it's hard". 2696. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2013 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright Spen, I'm just gonna come out and ask what we are all wondering: Is she putting out a lot? And is it good? 2697. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Turner Scott Motorsports has now officially introduced Nelson Piquet, Jr. as the driver of their #30 Nationwide car, joining Justin Allgaier and Kyle Larson in Turner's full-time Nationwide driver roster. With those three drivers, along with part-time Nationwide/full-time Truck Series drivers James Buescher and Jeb Burton, I would say that Turner has the best "under 30" driver lineup in NASCAR, with KBM's roster of Kligerman, Coulter, and Wallace coming in second. Dakoda Armstrong, who will compete full-time for Stacy Compton's Truck team this season, will also compete in five Nationwide races for RCR's #33 team. 2698. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only DSFF could get away with asking about that big elephant in the room. 2699. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.08.2013 - 6:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen I suggest dumping Her and getting a place of your own. 2700. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.08.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, she's not appreciative of racing? Even good bedtime doesn't make up for not likely racing. 2701. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2013 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a serious note I wanna say how happy I am that Rusty will be inducted into the NASCAR Hall Of Fame tonight. As you guys may or may not know, I was a huge Earnhardt fan growing up. That meant Rusty was the enemy. He was the only person who never took anything from Dale. Not only that, Rusty was good. Damn good. The only driver who could consistently run toe to toe with Dale during his peak in the late 80's and early 90's. He knocked Dale off the mountain top in 1989 and damn near did it again in 1993. And this was happening from '89-'94 during which time Rusty sued yis financially troubled owner, splitting from him after a lame duck 1990 season, then restarting Penske's NASCAR team from the ground up as a part owner, and a manufacturer switch from his trusty Grand Prix's to Ford. Were it not for Dale, Rusty's impressive resume would be even more impressive. To put up 55 wins and a championship while peaking at the same time as the greatest driver ever is huge. Let '88-'94 Rusty race in NASCAR from '06-'12 and he would have done more than Jimmie has. But I really cherished the Dale/Rusty rivalry. They brought out the best in each other, put on outstanding shows for the fans, and were good friends. Neither could ever coast with the other out there, they had to reach back and get all they could as drivers. People talk about Rusty falling off after Dale died, speculating that it affected his psyche. How about a simpler explanation like he just lost his benchmark? Instead of being scared, maybe he was just sad that he didn't have his buddy to rubfenders with anymore. But now he joins him in the Hall Of Fame. Congrats Russell, you deserve it. And there is a gy in the sky who will have a big smile under his mustache as you are being inducted. Thanks for the awesome memories. 2702. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR's Premier Division? I can live with that. Carl Edwards inducting Herb Thomas? Not so much. I think they should unearth Carl Kiekhafer's corpse and do the Weekend At Bernies deal to induct him. 2703. cjs3872 posted: 02.08.2013 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Rusty did not restart Penske's NASCARteam from the ground up. That was the same team that greats such as Buddy Baker (1978), Benny Parsons (1979'-80), and Cale Yarborough (1981-'82) drove for when M.C. Anderson owned the team, and later Tim Richmond drove for (1983-'85) before Rusty got there in 1986. What happened was that Rusty, along with Penske and Don Miller bought the team and changed the number from 27 to 2, which Penske had run previously with Dave Marcis. But it was the same team that won the 1989 Cup title, with guys like Jimmy Makar still there. But what turned the fortunes of that team around occurred late in 1992 when Penske hired Buddy Parrott to be Rusty's crew chief, and it immeditely started paying divdends, as he returned to the front of the field, finishing second to Geoff Bodine in a caution-free race at North Wilkesboro and later finishing third in the season finale at Atlanta, which set up their 1993-'94 run of 18 wins. that move not only revitalized Rusty's career, but also the career of Buddy Parrott, who was probably the greatest crew chief never to win a championship, and a certifiable Hall of Famer someday. 2704. 83andJoe posted: 02.08.2013 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Dakoda Armstrong, who will compete full-time for Stacy Compton's Truck team this season, will also compete in five Nationwide races for RCR's #33 team. Actually one race in the #33 and four in the #21. 2705. 13 posted: 02.08.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great Speech from Leonard Wood great man who helped found a great team! 2706. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had high expectations for Rusty's speech, and he delivered. Great stories told with passion. Funny, I didn't know his family was in the vaccuum cleaner business. So all thosetimes as a kid I'd be in the stands at North Wilkesboro or Charlotte and yell "Rusty sucks!" I was technically right! And let it never be forgotten that Rusty is the only person ever to go toe to toe with Dale in a championship battle and win. 8 times Dale was in a true championship battle in the season's waning races (or all by himself out front) and only Rusty prevailed. That says something. 2707. David posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I 100% echo DSFF's sentiment about Wallace. At first, I didn't think he should have made it on his first time (and apparently, neither did he), but since then I have come to realize that Wallace is truly a legend, even if he only won one championship. Happy Buck Baker Day!! 2708. murb posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great to see all the guys get inducted tonight. All of them absolutely deserve it. Stewart Haas has made a deal to acquire the owner points of the 49 car for Danica. Needless to say, I'm not surprised that she got someone else's owner points for this year. "Do anything you can to lock her into the field!!!!!" - Nascar and their PR people 2709. 18fan posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rusty almost passed Darrell Waltrip's "record" for longest induction speech in the brief history of the NASCAR Hall of Fame. 2710. Paul posted: 02.08.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't let the headline of that Danica/owner's points story fool you, it's actually not that big of a deal. SHR purchased the #49 car's owner points, which finished 42nd in the owner's standings in 2012. So unless there's a rain out in the first three races or if she fails to qualify in the top 36 and six or fewer cars ahead of her in owner points do as well, it's no guarantee she'll make the field unless she does so on time. This makes no sense. Tony Stewart is the co-owner and lead driver on that team with a past champion's provisional. Why wouldn't he just exchange owner points between the #14 and #10 teams? That way both teams would be guaranteed to make the first three races. I know that NASCAR made adjustments to the past champion's provisional, making it so it can only be used once every six attempts, as well as more bonus money being rewarded to a past champion if they finish high in the running order, but that just sounds like a smarter, cheaper business move to me. And what does that say about Danica? That her team doesn't trust her to qualify on time in five out of six attempts in solid equipment? That they want the past champion's bonus money to come from Stewart because they know his finishing position will be much higher? It's almost like they're saying "Yeah we know she isn't very good and isn't Sprint Cup material, but we need her sponsorship money pretty badly, so we're willing to bite the bullet for a year or two before a better driver comes along." That speaks great confidence for a green (inexperienced/doesn't know what she's doing) driver receiving an undeserving opportunity. 2711. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I missed the Hall of Fame induction ceremony tonight, but by the sound of things I'm gonna have to check out Rusty's speech. I've always enjoyed his post-race interviews (his 2002 Bristol night race one is my favorite), so this speech should be good. As far as the length of his speech, I'm sure it'll all be worth it to hear about all the old stories that he'll be able to tell. 2712. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's an interesting nugget that I didn't realize until the Hall of Fame ceremonies tonight (Feb. 8). I did not know that A.J. Foyt had ay role in Jeff Gordon coming to NASCAR, but hearing it from Buck Baker's widow, Foyt may actually have set the plans in motion that led to Gordon's coming to NASCAR. According to the story as told by Buck's widow, Foyt got in touch with Larry Nuber of ESPN, and that set things in motion to have Gordon attend Buck's driving school. I had always thought that it was Nuber that set that in motion. Anyway, when Gordon's run at that driving scool was complete, Buck apparently predicted that Gordon would hit it big (something else I didn't now until tonight), though I don't think anyone could have imagined the heights he would attain. Certainly not then. But I had no idea that A.J. Foyt had a role in that. Now one thing Foyt was known for was helping young drivers. He gave Al Unser his first big shot at Indy in 1965, and he's helped many other young drivers, but as it turned out, he may have been the catalyst for arguably the greatest career in NASCAR's modern history (DSFF would disagree with that notion). Perhaps then it was no accident that Gordon's win in the inaugural Brickyard 400 came in Foyt's final Cup race and A.J.'s favorite track. Perhaps that was meant to be, just as Gordon's win in the qualifying race as a rookie in 1993 came on the same day that Foyt failed to qualify for the 1993 Daytona 500, the last year he attempted to qualify for that race (they were not in the same qualifying race). 2713. David posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And what does that say about Danica? That her team doesn't trust her to qualify on time in five out of six attempts in solid equipment?" This goes for every driver who has benefitted from an owner's points swap. 2714. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, now that you mention it Paul, I was sort of scratching my head over this. I didn't remember the 49 car finishing the year in the top 35, and now it's obvious to me that they didn't. At the same time though, I'm not surprised at this weird move just because Tony has made some other pretty oddball moves in his brief career as an owner (most notably: passing on Brad Keselowski and firing Darian Grubb). 2715. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgive me guys, but all this talk about Rusty, Dale, and Brad has inspired me to do my Bill Weber "You don't have to look it up because we already did" impression. Rusty is probably most known for driving the #2 car, yet he never won a championship while driving that car. When Brad won the title in 2012, it was the first time the #2 car won the Cup title since Dale Earnhardt did so in 1980. Ironically enough, Dale (best known for driving car #3) won his first championship in full-time season number 2, while Brad won his first in full-time season number 3. The year before he won his first Cup title, Brad won 3 races, while Dale won just 1 race the year before his first title (3-2=1), and Rusty won 6 races the year before his first title in '89 (3x2=6, or 3+2+1=6). The year that Rusty won his first and only Cup title, he drove car #27. Two equations can be made from this number: One would be 2+7=9, and the square root of 9 is 3. When written out, that equation would look like 3^2=9. By the way, square was also the shape of the object that surrounded the GM emblem on the hood of Dale's #3 car from '88-'01. The other equation coming from Rusty's '89 title car number is 7-2=5. 5 being both the sum of 3 plus 2, and the age of Brad Keselowski in '89, the year Rusty won the title (and I think it was DSFF's age as well, a noted Dale/Brad/nostalgic Rusty fan). Well that was fun. I'm sure I probably missed a few notable equations, but I can only pretend to be Bill Weber for so long before I start to become him. YOU CALL THIS A HOTEL ROOM?! DON'T YOU PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M BILL FREAKIN' WEBER! Whoops! Sorry, I don't know where that came from lol. :) 2716. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "HARVICK SWEEPS AT BRISTOL!!!!! ... at Richmond..." 2717. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul and murb, the main reason that they did the point swap for Danica this time has more to do with a possible qualifying rainout than it does fearing that she may not be able to qualify for the first three races. Saying that, the odds of qualifying being rained out at Phoenix and/or Las Vegas is very low. But they're doing that to try to protect themselves from a qualifying rainout, in which case she would not even get a chance to qualify. But even so, using the #49's points fothe first three races won't give them that much protection anyway. 2718. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow Paul, that is good. I'd take you over Bill Weber any day of the week. And yes, I turned 5 in 1989 which is the year my memories of watching NASCAR really kick in. In fact, my 5th birthday was the day of the Spring Atlanta race which was won by Darrell Waltrip. He was driving car #17 in the season where the championship was won by car #27, beating out Earnhardt whose championship total would wind up being 7. Their paths would also cross in The Winston that season as Rusty wiped Darrell out in a clip I love watching. Eh, I'm not as good at this as you are Paul. Kinda weak that Darrell won on my 5th birthday. I never liked him. I'm much more fond of the fact I was born the day after Benny Parson's final win in the '84 Atlanta Spring race, and that Ward Burton won at Darlington the day of my 16th birthday. Of course I can't hold a candle to my Dad whose birthday is April 1, a bittersweet day for NASCAR history. We got to go to Martinsville in 2007 and watch Epic Gordon Johnson Deul Part I live on his 54th birthday. Earnhardt's first win came on Dad's 26th birthday 5 years before I was born which he probably had no idea was happening at the time. Of course Alan Kulwicki died on his 40th birthday. I'll never forget, we went out to a nice dinner for him, came home, turned on the 8 o clock news which opened with the newscaster blurting out bluntly "defending Winston Cup champiion Alan Kulwicki is dead". We were stunned beyond belief. I can remember like it was yesterday me and Mom and Dad sitting on the couch watching the report in stunned silence. 2719. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was born exactly one week before the 1992 season finale, which happened to be the first NASCAR race that took place while I was alive as they had the weekend off the day I was born. That day of course may have been the most memorable day in NASCAR history as it featured a championship battle with six drivers mathematically in contention for the title (which I think is a record, even with the Chase format), the first race of Jeff Gordon's historic career, the last race of Richard Petty's legendary career, and arguably the most suspenseful championship battle ever with Davey Allison crashing while holding the points lead, and Bill Elliott and Alan Kulwicki finishing 1-2 in the race, while the championship ended with the opposite result. Truly a memorable day in NASCAR history, and I'm kind of proud to know that that was the first Cup race to take place while I was alive. For years my birthday often occurred during the off week prior to the season finale, before NASCAR went to a 34-race schedule in '99, so several memorable championship moments have occurred near my birthday, including Dale winning the race and Jeff winning the title in '95 (ironically enough, I was 3 years and 4 days old that day, and Jeff beat Dale by 34 points) and both Labonte brothers winning at Atlanta '96 (Bobby the race, Terry the title). But I love the fact that Jeff Gordon tied the modern era record with 13 wins in a season to cap off his tremendous '98 season on my 6th birthday. The only other time that a race was held on my birthday came at Texas in 2009, which was won by Kurt Busch (I won't say I'm a fan of Kurt's, but I think it's safe to say that I like him better than the rest of the regulars on this board), so at least two drivers that I like (including my favorite driver) won on my birthday. The following season, the day before my 7th birthday, John Andretti led 97 laps at Phoenix, which was the last time that the #43 car led more than 51 laps in a race until A.J. Allmendinger led 141 laps at Dover in 2010. ELEVEN YEARS LATER. I'm also proud of the fact that my 9th and 11th birthdays occurred within three days of Bill Elliott's first win in seven seasons in 2001, as well as his last victory at the final fall Rockingham race in 2003. Of course, not there have been a few sour moments that have occurred near my birthday as well. Jimmie Johnson won his modern era-tying 4th consecutive race the first race after my 15th birthday in '07, and pretty much wrapped up the championship right there. Then the day before my 18th birthday, Jeff Burton turned Gordon into the wall under caution and Denny Hamlin won the damn thing. Luckily I wasn't watching hardly any NASCAR that season, so I wasn't as distraught about that race as I would have had I been paying attention. And then three days after my 20th birthday, apparently there was some incident at Phoenix that pretty much turned NASCAR into the WWE and made this board an incredibly hostile environment for the next week. Do you guys know anything about that race? Haha. Oh well, I like to pretend that race never even happened, so perhaps I'll just say from now on that the first race after my 20th birthday, Jeff Gordon was celebrating his 20 years at the Sprint Cup level with HMS and DuPont, and won that race which turned out to be his first victory at Homestead, the 87th of his career, and his final race driving a DuPont sponsored car. Hey, I'm starting to really like this repressed imagery. Who'da thunk it? Hahaha. 2720. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and speaking of repressed imagery, just four days after my 19th birthday in 2011, I woke up and started feeling some pain in my chest and a tingling feeling in my left arm. On the verge of freaking out, I had my friend drive me up to the hospital to find out what the hell was wrong with me (to this day, neither I nor my doctors really know what the hell was wrong with me that morning). When I was finally well enough to go back home later that day, I flipped on ESPN to watch the Nationwide race at Phoenix, only to see Elliott Sadler, whom I was pulling for to win the title, crash out of the race. Not long after that, I was fortunate enough to see two of my favorite drivers finish 1-2 in that race, with Sam Hornish, Jr. recording his first NASCAR victory over teammate Brad Keselowski. Man, talk about a day filled with highs and lows, both from a personal standpoint and a racing fan's standpoint. 2721. Schroeder51 posted: 02.09.2013 - 3:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, what are the odds...DaleSrFan's father has the same birthday as me! I was born on April 1, 1992. Alan Kulwicki won the first race of my entire lifetime a few days after I was born (now I would KILL to see this race turn up on Youtube won of these days...it was the last Bristol race run on asphalt before they tore it up and replaced it with concrete). But then, of course, one year later, on my first birthday, Alan was killed in the tragic plane crash. I sadly never got to see Alan race (or Davey Allison...I would have liked to actually see both of them race live), which saddens me somewhat as I do really look up to Alan. I really admire how he drove for himself and basically made all his own success without any help from the top teams. I'm rather saddened to say that were Alan a young driver in this day and age trying to make it into the sport the way he did...there is ZERO chance he'd ever make it today. What with people like Danica Patrick who are getting good rides despite not very many impressive results simply because they have huge media hype (hell, there are people already calling for her to be inducted into the Hall of Fame when she retires...that says enough right there)...No. No way he would have ever stood a chance in today's NASCAR. And that saddens me how far this sport has turned away from its good old days... 2722. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 12:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I remembered Alan Kulwicki's death and it was a huge deal in Wisconsin at the time when I was in Middle School. Alan's death stunned me and the state of Wisconsin. Alan was why I became interested in NASCAR. The local media covered his death because it was a huge deal like Alan Kulwicki day was. Alan was a very popular figure in Wisconsin at the time of death. I knew middle school classmates that actually got items signed by Alan Kulwicki on Alan Kulwicki Day and were shocked by his death. Alan Kulwicki Day took place at the Greenfield High School gymnasium in January of 1993. The High school was packed for Alan Kulwicki Park in January of 1993 and Alan signed Autographs for 6 hours on that day. 4 to 5 thousand people showing up is a lot for an event that took place in a High School gymnasium. 2723. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol, My birthday is in the offseason (December 4, one day after Bobby Allison!!!!), so nothing related to Nascar has never really happened on it, aside from Kurt Busch getting fired from Penske on that day in 2011. So I guess the first race after my birth was the 1995 Daytona 500 (well, other than the Shootout and the Duels), won by Sterling Marlin. As I go back and look at the full results to that race, the thing that sticks out is how many surprise drivers finished really high. Ted Musgrave finished 4th, Michael Waltrip finished 6th, Steve Grissom finished 7th, and Dick Trickle finished 11th. So with this upcoming Daytona 500 and all of the recent changes to the car, I'm expecting to see some different drivers finish up towards the front, a lot like 1995. I still haven't predicted a winner yet (I have to see the Duel races first), but a crazy ass race is one thing that I am predicting. I don't know, I just can't wait for Speedweeks!!!! 2724. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alan is one who will get in the hall some day for overcoming every odd to win the best trophy of them all, the Winston Cup. Read Father Dan Grubba's biography of him. Once you are done, you will feel like you were as close to Kulwicki as a guardian angel. 2725. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip finishing 6th in the 1995 Daytona 500 isn't a shock. Michael got 5 top 10's for the Daytona 500 before he went DEI. That meant he does know how to get around the place and wasn't really a product of the DEI plate program as a result. 2726. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep, you guys were right, it was just a media tactic. Darrell Wallace will in fact drive for KBM full time in the Truck Series this year in a number 54 Tundra. I expect him to win ROTY and win a race or two, with his teammate Joey Coulter being a serious threat for the title. 2727. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I admit that Michael was at his best at the Daytona 500 when he was DEI, but Michael already a good plate racer by than. 2728. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Michael Waltrip finishing 6th in the 1995 Daytona 500 isn't a shock." Maybe not as much of a shock as the other guys I mentioned, but I'd still say it was a shock. With Michael's lack of talent behind the wheel (other than plate races of course) mixed with the somewhat mediocreness of the Chuck Rider 30 car, I would say it would be the equivalent of David Ragan or David Gilliland finishing 6th in the 500 in a Front Row Motorsports car. Sure, it's not as shocking as the other guys (like Grissom finishing 7th in a terrible 29 car and Trickle finishing 11th for a WAY past its prime Bud Moore team), but it is still a surprisingly good run for a small team, at least in my eyes. 2729. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree that Alan is going to inducted into the Hall of Fame someday. I do realize that NASCAR has a 10 years rule, but I also remembered being mentioned that the NASCAR Car Hall Fame of Fame does make exceptions to the rule under some circumstances. Alan's death is one of those circumstances that the rule wouldn't be enforced like how Red Byron has been on the ballot. Red was forced to retire was a driver because of declining health and is why his cup career was so short. The fact Red died at the age of 45 of a heart attack shows Red was indeed having medical problems. Red's health issues might have been caused by his war injuries since Red's left leg was rebuilt at a time that there wasn't advance in the medical field compare to now. Red's health problems might have also been caused blood clots also. 2730. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip's restrictor plate abilities were one of the key reasons for why Dale Earnhardt hired him in 2001. The term "restrictor plate ace" isn't used much because most of the drivers who have been great at Daytona and Talladega were often times great at other tracks (Earnhardt, Gordon, Jarrett, Junior, Stewart, Elliott), but I think it fits Waltrip perfectly. Even though his near win at Talladega this year was derailed by Stewart's bone-headed block in the last corner, he probably drove the smartest race this year by hanging out in the second group all race long and letting the front runners use up their equipment, then charging up through the field in the final 10-20 laps. If these Gen-6 cars race at Daytona and Talladega the same way they did in 2012, we might see a driver win a race there using the same strategy that Waltrip used to almost win in the fall. 2731. Mr X posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would love to share all the great NASCAR related things that have happened on my birthday, but I don't have to thanks to the fact that me and DSFF, clearly share the same birthday on March 19th, the only difference is that I was born in 1993. 2732. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact Red isn't already in is a bit of a shame. He won a number of pre sanctioned races, got drafter to WW2, only became a legitimate war hero just like Bud Moore, was shot down suffered a horrible leg injury, returned to pre sanctioned racing having to wear brace just to mash the clutch, continued winning including the first ever Martinsville race, won NASCAR's first title in the modified division in '48 the won the first championship in NASCAR's Premier Division (yeah, I can live with that) the next year before having to retire due to health issues that would ultimately kill him. I'd have put him in ahead of Buck. It is a bit of a shame that he went in the same year as Herb Thomas considering the awful circumstances that happened in 1956. Besides, Herb is criminally underrated. After reading the NASCAR Complete History book, I have him as the 5th best driver ever. What took so long? 2733. Smiff_99 posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Daaaamn, Spen, you need to get yourself a woman like mine! I got her to start watching the race with me every week about halfway through the chase last year. Soooo, while I was talking 90 mph about how pivotal Brad defeating Jimmie was, she was right there getting caught up in it right along with me. Now, here we are, just 7 days away from "The Unlimited", and she just told me she's can't wait for the season to start. I swear, I'm living in some sort of alternate universe or something. I didn't think they made women like this north of Virginia! lol Not to mention, she bought me a Keselowski hat AND shirt for Christmas, along with Davey Allison's 1986 BGN Miller American Nova and Earnhardt's 1982 BGN Wrangler Ventura. WHAT A WOMAN!! Oh, and we've been talking about taking a trip together this summer. You wanna know where she wants to go? To a race! (In case anyone's wondering, we've narrowed it down to Daytona, Bristol, or Richmond....lol) 2734. jabber1990 posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mr X? I was born March 19th 1990! I didnt have any interest in NASCAR till 1998 or 1999, but I do think I remember maybe seeing one or 2 races before that, but small clips. but I spent the early years of my childhood in Idaho so its not like anyone would have cared my stepdad started to collect the 1:64 scale 50th Anniversary Racing Champions cars. he was one car short on his collection, the #26 cheerios car, he had it sniped from him on ebay (and knowing irony ill bet one of you on here may be sniped it) he completley forgot the 2001 Daytona 500 was on or else we may have watched it or had it on in the backgroud now he treats me like a second-class citizen for being a NASCAR fan. he acts like im below him for liking NASCAR. I do have conversation with my mother about it (whom also ignores every other word I say) but she has watched one or 2 races with me when I would go over to her house in 2010/2011 on weekends and help her around the house cause my step-dad was in Afghanistan (she didn't want me help, she just wanted to see me) I was at their house once in October 2011 and I watched Martinsville and he was giving me crap he asked me why dont I go to college and be an engine tuner for some team. I was 21 years old and dont know how to change oil...who the hell would hire me to be in an engineering positon for a superteam? i've not been in spens position who got all pissy when I watched races, but, then again I never had a GF during the season, probaby never will either 2735. jabber1990 posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate to ask a stupid question, or beat a dead horse, but I keep hearing "Gen 6" well, what are the other 5 cars? I heard Gen 1 was 1948-1966 when they were still 100% stock, but what about the other 4? Gens 2, 3, 4, 5? 2736. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.09.2013 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those wondering, Alan does meet the 10-year rule as he ran NNS races as early as 1984, which means he ran from 1984-1993, which is 10 separate seasons. :) Yea, for Alan! Honestly, though, I want to see Fred Lorenzen. Being a friend of Fred Lorenzen on Facebook, I know that his dementia is getting worse and, while he still remembers his career pretty well, he is not going to remember everything forever, and I think drivers like him who don't have much time to go in. 2737. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) jabber1990, The other generation of cars go as follows: Gen 5 was from 2007 to 2012 aka the car of tomorrow. Gen 4- 1992 to 2006 Gen 3 - 1981 to 1991 Gen 2 - 1967 to 1980 2738. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.09.2013 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was Born two days After Bill Elliott Won The Million Dollar Bonus at Darlington but didn't become interested in NASCAR until 2001 but I have learned almost every bit of NASCAR history since then and a lot of the races I have seen from the late 70's to about the early 2000's were much more exciting & interesting than the snooze-fests that we watch today. 2739. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn! Three March 19th babies here? To quote Kyle Petty, that is incredible. 2740. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I was Born two days After Bill Elliott Won The Million Dollar Bonus at Darlington" So you were the curse for the rest of his '85 season. Just like I was the curse for the rest of Benny Parson's career :( 2741. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 5:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, what was surprising about Dick Trickle finishing 11th in the 195 Daytona 500? He had run well at Daytona before, finishing fith in 1992, and was driving for Bud Moore, who's cars always ran well despite winning only once. And Michael Waltrip finishing up there sould not have been much of a surprise, either. Michael had finished eighth in 1990 and was running second to Davey Allison inside the final ten laps of the 1992 race before he suffered engine problems. And in 1995, Waltrip led jut past the halfway point before getting blown away by Sterling Marlin. In 1996, he ran in the top five with a damaged car before getting ganged up on late, and he finished fifth for Jim Mattei in the 1999 race. So it should have been no surprise that he finally won at Daytona when he got with a good team. Unfortunately, Michael Waltrip ended up being the Daytona 500's version of Gordon Johncock, as his first win in 2001 was overshadwed by Dale Earnhardt, Sr.'s death and his second in 2003 is tainted by the fact that it was shortened to 109 laps due to rain. And DSFF, while Herb Thomas was a slightly greater driver than Buck Baker, the thing that separates Buck from Herb Thomas and Tim Flock was his contributions to the sport after his career was over, mainly through the Buck Baker Driving School. When he opened his driving school at Rockingham, he gave many people that never even thought they'd ever drive a NASCAR car a chance to do just that. Now the Richard Petty Driving Experience does the same thing. It was appropriate that both Thomas and Buck Baker entered the Hall of Fame on the same night. And they and Lee Petty will one day be joined in the Hall of Fame by their other great contemporary, Tim Flock, a 2-time champion himself. Let's hope that's in the next year or two. And NicoRosbergFan, Alan Kulwicki is one of those drivers that the 10-year rule would be waived for, much like Davey Allison and others that otherwise would not be eligible because they didn't race for 10 years. So it doesn't matter whether or not Kulwicki raced in NASCAR for 10 years, because that qualification would be waived due to his plane crash, and the same is true with Davey Allison. And while I'm not sure Kulwicki belongs in the Hall of Fame down the road, I think Davey Allison will go in someday. Tim Richmond is eligible to be nominated because the disease that killed him (AIDS) kept him from competing for the requisite amount of time. When the 10-year requirement was put in, there was a clause for "extenuating circumstances" in the event something out of the driver's control, like a plane crash of deathly disease kept him from compting for the requisite amount of time. So guys like Alan Kulwicki, Tim Richmond, and Davey Allsion are eligible, but have not yet made the final cut of 25 to be voted on. 2742. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Tim Flock made contributions in NASCAR after he retired. I am saying that because he was employed by Charlotte Motor Speedway. He was employed by Charlotte Motor Speedway for selling tickets, meeting celebrities and dabbling in public relations. Tim worked at Charlotte Motorspeedway for years. He didn't get recognize like Buck Baker did for off the track since Tim's impact after he retired from driving was working at race track instead of developing future generations of NASCAR drivers like Buck Baker did. Tim working at race track actually helped Charlotte Motor Speedway and representing them by meeting celebrities on the race tracks behalf. 2743. David posted: 02.09.2013 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Forgive me guys, but all this talk about Rusty, Dale, and Brad has inspired me to do my Bill Weber "You don't have to look it up because we already did" impression." I've got a few good numbers for you here, but you already trademarked the "Bill Weber impression". Oh, well, I've got some other pretty awesome impressions. "The year that Rusty won his first and only Cup title, he drove car #27. Two equations can be made from this number: One would be 2+7=9" Rusty's ninth full-time year in the Cup Series was 1992, the year between Dale Earnhardt's fifth and sixth championships. Rusty was born in 1956 (the year Earnhardt's father won the Sportsman division title), and in his sixth Cup season, he won the title. Rusty was driving the #2 car for Roger Penske in 1992. Who won the title that year? Alan Kulwicki, driving the #7 car. Put those two together, and you get...27!! Take the average of Kulwicki's and Wallace's points finishes (first and thirteenth), and you get 7. Rusty's seventh year was his last year driving the #27 car, and his first with Miller sponsorship. Add said points finishes together, and you get 14. Rusty's fourteenth season was one of only two years that Dale Earnhardt went winless (1997). The other, 1981, was three years prior to Rusty's rookie season. "The other equation coming from Rusty's '89 title car number is 7-2=5." I cannot believe you overlooked this, Paul, so I'll take it. In the FIFTH race of Dale Earnhardt's SECOND full-time season, Rusty Wallace finished SECOND in his debut to...Dale Earnhardt. This was Earnhardt's SECOND win in NASCAR's top series. "Rusty won 6 races the year before his first title in '89 (3x2=6, or 3+2+1=6)." And in Earnhardt's sixth season, Brad Keselowski was born. 2744. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 7:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, did you guys see Buck's widow? Buddy wasn't kidding, his Dad was slick! 2745. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He was, Eric, and he (Tim Flock) did a great job. But as good as his contributions were to the sport, Buck's post-driving contributions were on another level, because he gave many people a taste of what driving a Cup and/or Busch car on one of the sport's toughest tracks (Rockingham), basically giving the average person a taste of what it was like inside the walls, and a greater appreciation of what the drivers go through on the track. 2746. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.09.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone else get the feeling that Bill Rexford will never get put in the HOF unless they make a Hall of Champions? 2747. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, when I was talking about the "surprising" runs in the 1995 Daytona 500, I was talking more about the teams than the drivers. To me, Dick Trickle's run was surprising because he was driving for a team that was starting to fall behind in recent years (Bud Moore). I never questioned his ability as a plate race driver. Same goes for Michael Waltrip. The surprising part about his run to me was that he was driving for a less than average single car team at the dawn of the "we need two or more cars to be a competitive organization" era. I never questioned his ability (well, at least on plate tracks). The point I was trying to make is that I expect there to be similar "surprising" runs and different drivers running up front in this year's Speedweeks due to the new car. 2748. murb posted: 02.09.2013 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *different teams Ugh, it seems like I can't type today. 2749. Eric posted: 02.09.2013 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, I got the same feeling as you about Bill Rexford for the HOF. The truth is although Bill Rexford was a cup champion in 1950, the voters and NASCAR themselves I don't think want that part of history to be acknowledged besides the fact Bill Rexford didn't race a lot in NASCAR after his championship. Bill Rexford's cup championship is caused by what NASCAR did at the time. If Fireball Roberts or Curtis Turner won that championship instead, it would still be tainted by how the championship was won. There was a group of NASCAR drivers that broke a rule that NASCAR had at the time and they where punished for it including Lee Petty. NASCAR at the time had a rule that didn't allow their driver to race in non sanctioned NASCAR events and Lee was stripped of over 800 points. 2750. JG24FanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyone else get the feeling that Bill Rexford will never get put in the HOF unless they make a Hall of Champions?" He doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. 2751. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or your computer's keyboard not always working right, murb, which I'm having a problem with myself (I keep having to fill in words and sentences). But let's not forget that Bud Moore's team was still a front running team at Daytona. In 1992 and '93, Geoff Bodine finished third in the Daytona 500 for Moore, Lake Speed ran near the front until he ran out of fuel with three laps left in 1994 (I believe he was running sixth when he ran out of gas), and Wally Dallenbach, Jr. had a car as fast as anyone in the 1996 Daytona 500, with Dallenbach finishing sixth after pushing Dale Jarrett to the lead, which he never relinquished on lap 177. And Bahari Racing always had fast cars for Michael Waltrip in the first half of the 90s, but they couldn't seem to get to the finish, except for that 1995 race. And again, they would probably have been second or third if not for that late-race engine problem in 1992. A better case for surprise front runners would be the 2002 Daytona 500, as none of the top finishers were ever predicted to be there on that day. The top finisher among those expected to contend was Waltrip, and he finished fifth despite being in the crash at the S/F line on that fateful lap 194 restart that chnged everything. And of course, let's not forget the 2011 race where surprise front runners are concerned, because most of the favorites ended up crashing out of contention at some point, and some did it more than once. 2752. Paul posted: 02.09.2013 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And in both races that cjs listed in post 2751, the Wood Brothers' #21 car was among the surprise front runners, finishing 2nd in the 2002 Daytona 500 with Elliott Sadler, and then winning the big race in 2011 with Trevor Bayne. 2753. JG24FanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Herb is criminally underrated. After reading the NASCAR Complete History book, I have him as the 5th best driver ever. What took so long? " So is Tim Flock. Herb Thomas had a career of 230 starts with 48 wins and 2 Title's. If Jeff Gordon only raced between 1995-99 with 47 wins in 161 starts,and 3 Championships,with 4 straight Southern 500 wins,2 Daytona wins,5 straight seasons with the Most wins,4 seasons out of 5 with the most Races Led Most,and the only genuine season "Grand Slam" in 1997, when he became the only driver to Win the Daytona 500, The World 600,The Southern 500 an the Championship in the same season. Would Gordon be the greatest ever if he only raced in these five seasons? Most likely yes. 2754. JG24FanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And since I brought up Gordon's 1995-99. Gordon's Win% for five seasons at .291% is higher than Tony Stewart's Top 5% of 2011 which was .250% 2755. JG24FanForever posted: 02.09.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Who are the All-Time Greatest Cup Crew Chiefs? 1. Leonard Wood 2. Dale Inman 3. Waddell Wilson What do you people think? 2756. cjs3872 posted: 02.09.2013 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One reason for that Paul, is that the Wood Brothers have always been a patient team, perhaps the most patient in the history of the sport, and the more carnage that takes place in a race, the more they figure to benefit. Thei best Daytona 500s since 1983 have almost always occurred in races with a lot of carange, though that's not always the main reason why. For instance, Dale Jarrett finished sixth in the 1991 race, which had nine caution periods, every one for crashes. The next year, Morgan Shepherd was second in a race where 15 cars were involved in one crash on lap 92. In 1994, Shepherd ran up front again, also in a race with quite a bit of carnage, as 15 cars were involved in two crashes between laps 62 and 80. Aside from Michael Waltrip's surprising run in 1996, the next time the Wood Brothers were contenders was in 2002, when about two-thirds of the field were involved in crashes, including 18 in one crash near the three-qurter mark. And of course, there's that 2011 race they won with Trevor Bayne, which was the most accident-marred in race history with 16 cautions, all but two or three for crashes, and about 25-30 cars were involved in incidents in that race. Regardless of the driver, the Wood Brothers have always played a "wait and see" approach when in came to race strategy, and if there's a race without much attrition, they're not likely to be factors, but if there's high attrition in a race, they're more than likely to be factors in the event at some level. They've never cared where their car is running until the last 100 miles, and then they get a little more serious. It was that way in the 1960s and it's that way now, which is why Trevor Bayne is such a good fit for them, because he seems to have that philosophy, as well. Another classic example was Kyle Petty's 1987 Coca-Cola 600 win. They just laid back in about fourth or fifth place all day, and then the leaders started falling by the wayside, and before they knew it the Wood Brothers found themselves winning another big one. If it's a race where you have to charge, that's never really been up the Wood Brothers' alley, but if it's a race where strategy and attrition is involved, they'll usually find some way to be a factor at some level, unless they're involved in the attrition, because they're patient and willing to wait a race out. 2757. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.10.2013 - 7:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's too bad Wood Brothers is a Ford team, because I'd like to see Bayne move to Roush (as seems to be the plan in 2014) and have Ryan Blaney run that car part-time. 2758. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2013 - 10:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll say this NicoRosbergFan. It will be interestng who the Woods put in the #21 car when Trevor Bayne does leave. Knowing their philosophy, it will probably be a veteran driver, because they've always gone that direction with a few exceptions. Those exceptions being Bayne, Elliott Sadler, and Dale Jarrett. The Woods have always liked proven commodities driving their cars, because veteran drivers are usually patient like the Woods themselves are. And remember that now that Ryan Blaney is a Penske development driver, that he's now in the Ford tree of development drivers, but he wouldn't be the kind of guy they would hire because of hs lack of experience. 2759. Spen posted: 02.10.2013 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To address the "elephant" question, among her many issues, one of them is severe nymphomania. And as someone who can count the number of dates I've had since my divorce sixteen years ago, let's just say that I'm willing to put racing off to the side for a little while as this ride is going on. :) 2760. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.10.2013 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs: Ryan Blaney already drives like a cagey veteran and is cool as a cucumber. Spen: Sweet mother of mercy! 2761. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2013 - 11:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not saying that Ryan Blaney doesn't drive like a cagey veteran. What I'm saying is that the Wood Brothers have always valued experience over youth, no matter how cagey a young driver races like. After all, there are things that a veteran brings a team that a young driver can't bring, no matter how smart and cagey he is, and the Wood Brothers have almost always valued experience over youth. In fact,I believe that they would never have hired Trevor Bayne had Roush not effectively forced Bayne on them, because I think they were happy with what Bill Elliott was giving them. In fact, if Bayne moves on to Roush's Cup team in 2014, it wouldn't surprise me if Mark Martin was the next driver in the #21 car in 2014. Martin would be a perfect fit, because he doesn't want to run the full season and the Woods don't seem interested in running the full season, and Martin fits the Woods' veteran driver profile perfectly, plus it would put Martin back in the Ford camp. 2762. Eric posted: 02.10.2013 - 12:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Dale Jarrett already had experience under his belt when the Wood Brothers hired him after Neil Bonnett's near fatal crash at Darlington on April Fools day in 1990. Dale Jarrett already had 86 cup raced under his belt when the Wood Brothers hired him. Lets remember the Dale Jarrett made a combined 4 cup starts from 1984 to 1986. Dale Jarrett than did 24 races in 1987 before doing a full time schedule in 1988 and 1989. Any driver has 86 career cup started can't be called inexperienced anymore at a time that there was only 29 cup races a season. 2763. cjs3872 posted: 02.10.2013 - 1:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) True enough Eric, but none of those starts came in a car good enough to even sniff the front, and the Wood Brothers ride was still a high pressure ride in 1990 because of it's great history, even though they had fallen on hard times themselves. Most of the drivers the Wood Brothers hired, even Kyle Petty, had previously been in cars capable of running up front, which is the reason many thought they were taking a real chance whn they hired Jarrett, but it proved to be the right decision, both for Jarrett and the team, which became front runners again with Jarrett and his replacement Morgan Shepherd. In fact, the five years beginning in with Jarrett's only full season with he team in 1991 were the best they ever had in the nearly 25 years that they ran the full circuit, even though they only won twice, because they were constantly near the front, and barely missed finishing in the top five in the points in 1994 with Morgan Shepherd. 2764. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2013 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, that is awesome. 2765. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just went to Lowe's and bought a new washer and dryer while wearing one of my Brad Keselowski 2012 Sprint Cup Champion shirts. TAKE THAT 48 TEAM!!!!!!!!! 2766. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.10.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK, DSFF, now wear a Jeff Gordon shirt in Lowe's... 2767. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2013 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldn't do any good Nico. The Brad shirt only works cause he actually beat the 48 team. That is something Jeff has never done in 11 seasons (I know Jeff finished 4th in '02 while Jimmie finished 5th, but Jimmie was a rookie, they both had 3 wins, and Jimmie actually led the points late which I think is more impressive). Actually Brad is the only driver to finish ahead of Jimmie in 2 consecutive seasons in Jimmie's entire career. He is also the only driver to win more races and/or tie Jimmie in wins in 2 straight seasons outside of his first two seasons (Kurt won 4 races apiece in '02 and '03 to Jimmie's 3 apiece, which Jeff also accomplished in '02 nd '03). Yeah, Jimmie has had an absolute stranglehold on the sport from the moment the 2002 season started. 2768. jabber1990 posted: 02.10.2013 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I havent had sex in 3 years, and I dated a slut whos probably screwed nearly a hundred guys (and shes 18) and shes been engaged at least 7 times since we broke up in January 2012 2769. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.10.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Point lost DSFF; it's not about the being defeated part. It's the fact that the 48 team, Jimmie and Chad alike, both are so set out to destroy the 24 team. 2770. Paul posted: 02.10.2013 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've gotta hand it to NFL Films; they know exactly how to make me become a fan of any Super Bowl story they show. They've been airing an "America's Game" marathon all day on NFL Network about some of the greatest Super Bowl teams of all-time, and no matter if I'm a fan of the team that is being highlighted or not, I find myself rooting for them before the show is over. The last episode they were highlighting the 2001 Patriots, a team that evidence shows cheated during the season by filming other team's play calls, AND I WAS PULLING FOR THEM! Right now they're showing the 2010 Packers, and lo and behold I'm somewhat pulling for them as well (although I will admit I walked out of the room just as they showed highlights of the 31-3 ass-kicking they gave the Vikings that season). Who knows, maybe when they eventually air the story of the 2012 Ravens, I'll find myself rooting for that team as well...years from now, of course. 2771. David posted: 02.10.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That is something Jeff has never done in 11 seasons (I know Jeff finished 4th in '02 while Jimmie finished 5th, but Jimmie was a rookie, they both had 3 wins, and Jimmie actually led the points late which I think is more impressive)." 5th is a lower position than 4th. You can't devalue anything with the Chase format. If we are going to count David Pearson's third place finish in the 1974 standings, then we have to count this. 2772. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.10.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know he beat him in the final standings in '02, but considering it was Jimmie's first year, and he led the points for a week late, and they had the same number of wins, that is a pretty hollow win for the defending champ. Besides, Pearson had the 3rd best season in '74. Either way, in their 11 seasons head to head driving for the same team, with Jeff still in his prime racing years, Jimmie has a 10-1 record in the points standings and a 8-1-2 record as far as wins. I could wear a Jeff shirt into lowe's, but I'd get laughed out of the place. A Brad shirt? Nope. 2773. murb posted: 02.11.2013 - 2:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just read on Jayski that Indianapolis Motor Speedway is seeking state aid for upgraded facilities, and that they might put up lights. You know what that means. "Hmm, how can we make the Brickyard race worse? OH, I KNOW!!! A NIGHT RACE!!!" 2774. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.11.2013 - 6:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only saving grace to the Brickyard 400 is that it is usually over by 5 o clock and then I can go on with the rest of my life which doesn't consist of much besides work and sleep. Night racing there would really suck. Somebody needs to tell these people that night racing has long since lost its thrill. 2775. JG24FanForever posted: 02.11.2013 - 7:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Somebody needs to tell these people that night racing has long since lost its thrill." F1 only has 1,at Singapore,and also a Twilight race at Abu Dhabi,and the F1 fans love it. But Nascar has and has had way too many for a long time. We have to pray for a rain-out to get a classic day-time Richmond race. I don't like Night race's.Except Bristol and Darlington. 2776. jabber1990 posted: 02.11.2013 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) the thing about night races, one Richmond needs to be day, but which one, the September one is usually patriotic so I guess the May one the Taxpayers of Indiana are paying for the improvements on Indianapolis Motor Speedway 2777. JG24FanForever posted: 02.11.2013 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "the Taxpayers of Indiana are paying for the improvements on Indianapolis Motor Speedway" A big improvement would be to remove all events at the track except the Indy 500, and then allow the Tyco Plastics 400 presented by Winn Dixie and brought to you by Blimpie Subs to die with what little dignity the event still has. Attendance for the Brickyard 400 1994: 350,000+ 2012: 125,000- 2778. Sean posted: 02.11.2013 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Move the Brickyard to the IMS road course. I bet it would be more entertaining. Hell, move the Coke Zero 400 to the Daytona road course too. 2779. JG24FanForever posted: 02.11.2013 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Road-Race's at those tracks(especially Daytona)would be brilliant. 2780. Paul posted: 02.11.2013 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR could hit two birds with one stone by moving Indy to the first Chase race, which of course has a lot more history and meaning than Chicagoland, and use the road course track instead. That way NASCAR would have its road course race in the Chase, which would add credibility to the Chase by giving it one more track type, have a monumental track open up the Chase to add some credibility and provide the Chase with a major, and not have to negotiate with a different road course track at the expense of losing another race. 2781. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.11.2013 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only races that need to be at night. The Bristol Night Race, the September Richmond race, the Labor Day Atlanta race (cause it is freaking hot and the track is so worn out they will slip and slid no matter when it is held) and the All Star Race. I'm also good with the day into night World 600. The rest? Mile and a halves don't matter when they are held. I loved the old daytime Firecracker 400, Darlington just doesn't look right at night, the Daytona 500 needs to end under the Florida sun, and I want to see the champion at Homestead have the trophy shining in the sun, not artificial lights. 2782. Paul posted: 02.11.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't mind the July race at Daytona taking place at night, but there are way too many night races at Daytona nowadays. In the eight national series races at Daytona last year, only three of them took place in the day, and two of them were the non-points Duel races (there would have been four had the Daytona 500 not been delayed). I wish the Truck race at Daytona would take place in the day once again just more than half of the Daytona races would be daytime races. I also wish that the fall Charlotte race took place in the day, like it did prior to 2002. The Nationwide race there takes place in the day and those races, for a Cup-dominated Nationwide race on a cookie-cutter track, are usually pretty decent. The All-Star Race should be a night race and the Coca-Cola 600 should remain a day-to-night race, but the other races should take place in the daytime because that track is simply awful now that the cars are so aerodynamically sensitive. Hopefully the "these cars have less downforce" story that I've heard from a few drivers is true, because that might just make the Charlotte races watchable. The spring race at Richmond should take place in the daytime, with the fall race taking place at night because with possible Chase berths on the line, it has the potential to be one hot night (this year's race was a great example). I might also turn the Atlanta race into a day-to-night race as well, just to keep the teams on their toes and have them prepare for the slippery and tire-chewing track conditions both with the sun up and down. It would show which team is the most prepared for track changes heading into the Chase. And for the love of God, let Darlington take place during the day like it should. It looks too much like all the other intermediates at night, which is a shame because as we all know, Darlington is nothing like the other intermediate tracks and is the most unique track on the circuit. In fact, every intermediate track other than the two May Charlotte races and the late summer Atlanta race should take place during the day. 2783. murb posted: 02.11.2013 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know why Texas needs to be a night race either. There were some pretty good day races there in the early to mid 2000s. 2784. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.11.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think it's pretty asinine that the Coke starts between 5 and 6:30 every year. That's ending WAY too late for most people (10PM-midnight). I'd like to see it start around 3:00 so that they get full day portions, twilight, and full night. 2785. 83andJoe posted: 02.12.2013 - 4:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The World 600's starting time is so that it doesn't conflict with the Indy 500. 2786. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.12.2013 - 7:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As they drove down the field again it was an appropriate occasion to summon up the old cliches which salute gallant losers who play on for pride and self respect when all hope for victory has vanished. But No this was a team that truly believed it still could win. John Facenda: Superbowl XIII Documentary Battle of Champions BTW if they had more time the Dallas Cowboys might have won Superbowl XIII 2787. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.12.2013 - 7:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And this year the Indy 500 starts at 11, so lets move the Coke to 3 since the 500 is always done within 3.5 hours. 2788. cjs3872 posted: 02.12.2013 - 9:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I've been saying they need to move the Brickyard 400 to the first race in the Chase for a number of reasons. First, they need to have a really big race in the Chase. One of the things that set that first Chase in 2004 apart was that the next-to-last race was the Southern 500 at Darlington. Secondly, that would restore some of what has been lost revolving the annual NASCAR date at Indy, luster that was lost wen the Chase came to being, then was accelerated with the two tire debacles in 2004 and 2008. And NicoRosbergFan, why do you think they started running the Coca-Cola 600 between 5-6:30PM Eastern beginning in 1994? It was so it wouldn't have to compete head-to-head with the Indianapolis 500. Prior to that, nobody watched the first half of the 600 because that overlapped with the Indianapolis 500 until 1994. But when they put lights in and started running the race at night, viewers could now watch both races in their entirities without having to choose which one to watch. Drivers competing in both races in the same day was just a side effect of that change. And DSFF, as for night races, the Coca-Cola 600 (for the above mentioned reasons), the Firecracker 400 (because the early start time prevented live network coverage of that race), and races at hot weather tracks such as Darlington (they intended to run the Southern 500 at night even before the date change), Atlanta (or California on Labor Day weekend), and the second Texas race I think need to be run at night. The finale is finished under the lights to put the finale in prime time. But I agree that the Daytona 500 should never be scheduled to run at night and I think even the fall Charlotte race could be run during the day, though they schedule that for Saturday night to prevent them from competing head-to-head with the NFL, so that's understandable. And I don't really mind the two races at Richmond running at night, especially the one thatsets the Chase field in early September. That race was changed to night in 1991 to avoid what happened in that race in 1989 from happening again (it was run in oppressive heat). 2789. jabber1990 posted: 02.12.2013 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) why does everyone keep bitching about the changes to the Sprint unlimited, why dont we just shut up and have fun with it, obviously NASCAR and Sprint want us to have fun so why dont we have fun I understand that the last time we were promised change....well we know how that turned out, but why dont we at least give it benefit of the doubt? I dont know what we can vote on, I have so many problems with this computer that I cant go to NASCAR.com, and plus its very bandwidth intensive 2790. Daniel posted: 02.12.2013 - 11:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You can vote on the race fortmat: 40 laps/20/15, 35/30/10, 30/25/20 If there should be required pit stop after segment 1: No, 2 tires, 4 tires If any cars should be eliminated after segment 2: None, 2, 4, 6 And which firesuit miss sprint cup should wear. 2791. jabber1990 posted: 02.12.2013 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) what do the firesuits look like? and I heard a rumor there is "no firesuit" option 2792. Paul posted: 02.12.2013 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt Kenseth will be sponsored by GameStop for 10 Nationwide races this season. Somehow I don't think having an almost 41-year old driver sponsored by a video game store is the best marketing tool, just like how having a then-18-year old driver sponsored by a home improvement store probably wasn't the best marketing tool for The Home Depot back in 2009. 2793. jabber1990 posted: 02.12.2013 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I mean isnt 2794. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.12.2013 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Indy starts at 11 AM. It starts before freaking noon and takes less than 3.5 hours to run. It's guaranteed done by 2:30, so why not start the Coke @ 3? 3 PM guarantees no haed-to-head. 2795. Paul posted: 02.12.2013 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want to retract my previous statement about Matt Kenseth and his GameStop sponsorship. I just did some research and it turns out Matt is an avid video game player, often playing with his son Ross in his free time. The fact that Matt is an avid gamer has swung me on his new GameStop sponsorship and now I think he is a great fit for driving a GameStop sponsored car, in spite of his relatively older age. Plus, it'll be nice to pull for a GameStop sponsored car this year as their paint schemes are always pretty cool, as I myself am an avid gamer. 2796. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2013 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey LordLowe, did they play this soundbite: "Oh, bless his heart, he's gotta be the sickest man America right now" 2797. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Happy birthday to the champ! 2798. David posted: 02.12.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Happy birthday to the champ!" Happy birthday to Abraham Lincoln!! Who can recite all 44 presidents in order? I know I can't. 2799. David posted: 02.12.2013 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) From memory, of course. 2800. Paul posted: 02.12.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Who can recite all 44 presidents in order?" 1. George Washington 2. John Adams 3. Thomas Jefferson 4. James Madison 5. James Monroe 6. John Quincy Adams 7. Andrew Jackson 8. Martin Van Buren 9. William Harrison 10. John Tyler 11. James K. Polk 12. Zachary Taylor 13. Millard Fillmore 14. Franklin Pierce 15. James Buchanan 16. Abraham Lincoln 17. Andrew Johnson 18. Ulysses S. Grant 19. Rutherford B. Hayes 20. James A. Garfield 21. Chester A. Arthur 22. Grover Cleveland 23. Benjamin Harrison 24. Grover Cleveland (again) 25. William McKinley 26. Theodore Roosevelt 27. William Howard Taft 28. Woodrow Wilson 29. Warren Harding 30. Calvin Coolidge 31. Herbert Hoover 32. Franklin D. Roosevelt 33. Harry S. Truman 34. Dwight Eisenhower 35. John F. Kennedy 36. Lyndon Johnson 37. Richard Nixon 38. Gerald Ford 39. Jimmy Carter 40. Ronald Reagan 41. George H. W. Bush 42. Bill Clinton 43. George W. Bush 44. Barack Obama 2801. cjs3872 posted: 02.12.2013 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That is if it doesn't rain or somethig dosn't happen like it did in 1964, '66, '70, 73 or '82, NicoRosbergFan, becase in those races, there were incidents that stopped the race for lengthy periods. The Sachs/MacDonald crash in 1964 stopped the race for about 1 hr, 45 min, the cras at the start in 1966 stopped the race for more than ne hour, in 1970, there was a slight delay for rain, then Jim Malloy's crash delayed it again for another half hour, in 1973 we all know what hapned, and the crash just before the start delayed the start for 45 minutes. And in 1992, there was a pre-race crash that delayed the start, then a crash-marred race that saw more laps run under caution than under green until late in the race, resulting in the slowest winning time since 1958, despite some of the fastest race laps ever run. There's no guarantee that a 3-3:30 PM start time for the 600 will not have a conflict with the Indianapolis 500, even if it doesn't rain at Indy, because the Indianapolis 500 has taken 4-5 hours to complete from it's scheduled start time numerous times in the modern era, most recently in 2007. 2802. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.12.2013 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes they did DSFF. We can all say that Jackie Smith literally dropped the ball on that one. 2803. David posted: 02.12.2013 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dadgum it, Paul!! Here is what I do know from memory: Presidents who died in office: William Henry Harrison (pneumonia) Zachary Taylor (severe gastroenteritis) Abraham Lincoln (assassinated) James A. Garfield (shot, died from his injuries 80 days later) William McKinley (assassinated) Warren Harding (heart attack) Franklin Delano Roosevelt (stroke) John F. Kennedy (assassinated) Presidential assassins: John Wilkes Booth (Lincoln) Charles Guiteau (Garfield) Leon Czolgosz (McKinley) Lee Harvey Oswald (Kennedy) 2804. Paul posted: 02.12.2013 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "William Henry Harrison (pneumonia)" Harrison actually developed pneumonia during his inauguration speech. The weather was bad that day and he didn't dress for the occasion, plus his speech was very long. He came down with pneumonia and died 30 days after his inauguration, spending most of his presidency unconscious. "Lee Harvey Oswald (Kennedy)" LOL. 2805. jabber1990 posted: 02.12.2013 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I had a dream one night that said that the Bohemian Grove and the Skull and Bones killed JFK becasue he went public about the 2 groups seriously I was watching History Channel in the dream my Grandmother knows somebody who KNOWS that the Catholic Church killed JFK 2806. BON GORDON posted: 02.12.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shouldn't Carl Edwards be the last car on the lead lap. I remember he passed Gordon on the back straightaway on the last lap to get back onto the lead lap. Everyone else was behind Gordon, (Ambrose on back) or so I thought? 2807. Eric posted: 02.12.2013 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, While Matt Kenseth is at relatively older age for an avid gamer, there are a good amount amount avid gamers and causal gamers at a relatively older age. I know people in their late 50's or early 60's that are casual gamers in terms of playing stuff like Wii Sports for the Nintendo Wii. I am an avid gamer despite being in my mid 30's. I am not going to reveal the systems that I own or the amount of games I have. Yes, I did create a list of games and system that I have. Lets say that I have a quite a bit and I will be getting my pre-ordered Atari 7800 Expansion module sometime this year depending the creator's health. Yes, I am I have been play video games since the late 1980's. Lets say that stuff like Transformers and Hot Wheels was things was into before the late 1980's. There are people in my age or even in their 40's that still play video games. I belong a video game message board that has people around my age or even older and some of them even develop video games as hobby. 2808. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.12.2013 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do know Chester A Arthur was the 21st president. How did I know that? Die Hard With A Vengeance of course. This Thursday, he is back. A Good Day To Die Hard. Can't wait. Yippie Ki Yay Motherf*****s! The CIA along with the mob whom they had strong connections killed JFK. He was gonna risk a lot to take down Castro, and that wasn't a good thing for them. They hired Oswald as their patsy and put him in the terrible position to shoot at him from the Depository, which would draw attention to him, get him shot so he couldn't squeal, all while they killed Jack from the grassy knoll. They got the part about killing JFK from the grassy knoll right (both the head and throat wounds came from the knoll) but everything else fell to shit. Oswald didn't create enough of a diversion to get shot (although he somehow managed to hit the Texas governor) and got captured alive and told everyone around he was the patsy. So they had to send notorious mob affiliate Jack Ruby to kill him before he said too much. They rewarded Ruby by letting him rot in prison until he died of cancer (if I'm not mistaken, Kennedy, Oswald, and Ruby were all pronounced dead in the same trauma room at at Parkland Hospital). The rest is history, the government produced the ridiculous Warren Commission which has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese factory, unaware of the technology to come which would show he was hit twice from the front plus the taped news conference from Parkalnd Hospital where the doctors clearly stated he had an entrance wound in the front of his throat and an exit wound in the back, then released the ludicriously fake autopsy photos (in the Zapruder film he clearly had half his head blown off which is miraculously intact for those pictures), and just createed a bigger mess. 2809. David posted: 02.13.2013 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Harrison actually developed pneumonia during his inauguration speech. The weather was bad that day and he didn't dress for the occasion, plus his speech was very long. He came down with pneumonia and died 30 days after his inauguration, spending most of his presidency unconscious." I knew this. His inauguration speech was the longest in presidential history, lasting for an hour and forty-five minutes. "LOL." I know that a lot of people don't believe that Oswald was the only shooter, but I always like to put down what is "official", unless I feel strongly about it (Bobby Allison's 85 wins are a good example). 2810. David posted: 02.13.2013 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I do know Chester A. Arthur was the 21st president." I know that Millard Fillmore is the 13th president. 2811. Spen posted: 02.13.2013 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can do Paul one better. Here are the runners-up in every presidential election: 1789: John Adams 1792: John Adams 1796: Thomas Jefferson 1800: John Adams 1804: Charles C. Pinckerney (I think I misspelled that) 1808: Charles C. Pinckerney 1812: DeWitt Clinton 1816: Rufus King 1820: John Quincy Adams (in the electoral college, anyway. In the actual voting, second went to "Federalist Electors") 1824: Andrew Jackson (Along with William Crawford and Henry Clay.) 1828: John Quincy Adams 1832: Henry Clay (along with William Wirt of the Anti-Masonic party) 1836: William Henry Harrison (along with Daniel Webster, and a southern Whig candidate who's name escapes me at the moment.) 1840: Martin Van Buren 1844: Henry Clay 1848: Lewis Cass 1852: Winfield Scott 1856: John C. Fremont (along with Millard Fillmore, running as a Know-Nothing.) 1860: John C. Breckenridge (along with Stephen Douglass, and John Bell) 1864: George McClellen 1868: Horatio Seymour 1872: Horace Greeley 1876: Samuel Tilden 1880: Winfield S. Hancock 1884: James G. Blaine 1888: Grover Cleveland 1892: Benjamin Harrison 1896: William Jennings Bryan 1900: William Jennings Bryan 1904: Alton B. Parker 1908: William Jennings Bryan 1912: Theodore Roosevelt (along with William H. Taft) 1916: Charles Hughes 1920: James Cox 1924: John W. Davis (along with Robert LaFollette) 1928: Al Smith 1932: Herbert Hoover 1936: Alf Landon 1940: Wendell Wilkie 1944: Thomas Dewey 1948: Thomas Dewey (plus Strom Thurmond) 1952: Adelai Stevenson 1956: Adelai Stevenson 1960: Richard Nixon 1964: Barry Goldwater 1968: Hubert Humphries (and George Wallace) 1972: George McGovern 1976: Gerald Ford 1980: Jimmy Carter 1984: Walter Mondale 1988: Michael Dukkakis 1992: George H. W. Bush (and Ross Perot) 1996: Bob Dole 2000: Al Gore 2004: John Kerry 2008: John McCain 2012: Mitt Romney 2812. Paul posted: 02.13.2013 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chester Alan Arthur was known for two things: Being the only president with three first names, and having arguably the best presidential portrait of all-time. My favorite quote about him was that he sat down to have him his presidential portrait taken, and then proceeded to do nothing for the next four years. That pretty much sums up every president who served between Abraham Lincoln (16th) and Theodore Roosevelt (26th). I'm not as much of an expert on the JFK assassination and its conspiracy theories as DSFF is, but I don't doubt for a second that our federal government would kill its own president. We've already killed thousands of people in the middle east with drone strikes, as well as a few of our own U.S. citizens who were labeled as "anarchists", in the past year under the current administration, led by a so called "liberal, progressive, humanitarian, Nobel Peace Prize-winning" president (Peyton Manning winning the 2012 MVP award would have been more legit than a president with such little regard to civil liberties winning a Nobel Prize for his "peace work"). Our own government could turn its attention away from its own citizens who are tired of the corruption and turn it towards getting rid of Obama right now, and hardly anybody would think anything of it. It's been largely accepted that the federal government can and will do anything it wants, and so eliminating any threat, even if that means the president, wouldn't be that big of a surprise. But don't get your hopes up, because they wouldn't dream of getting rid of Obama. As much as congress and cable news try to make it seem like they despise Obama, calling him a black liberal/anarchist/socialist/communist/Marxist/Maoist, among other things, they love him because he is exactly what they want. His image is great for global relations (young, black, smiles a lot, somewhat hip, speaks calmly, provides hope to the masses in his speeches, etc.), but underneath he is a vindictive individual. He looks out for the upper class with all of the tax loopholes in place, pretends to care about the middle class by promising to lower their taxes and raises taxes on the upper class, and pretends to give a shit about the lower class with all of that "hope and change" bullshit. Then he teases his political base by coming out in support of gay marriage and abortion, which distracts the liberal sheep long enough for him to set a record for deportations by a sitting president, doing nothing in support of gun control (don't let the media fool you, he has done nothing to even warrant a "He's gonna take away our guns!" mentality from gun owners), and approving drone strikes and killings on citizens across the world. The conservative media acts like they're against him because it riles up their fanbase and donors who then give them money and ratings. The liberal media often acts as if he is the next Theodore Roosevelt with his "progressive agenda" (which would be like saying Tony Romo is this generation's "Captain Comeback"), only to look away when the polls show he is no better than our last president (and in some cases much worse). And the Republicans in congress act like he is so hard to deal with and that he won't listen to them (which is complete bullshit since they are the party of "No" and often try to bully the Democrats into giving them everything they want), but then they laugh it off in private as Obama gives them everything they want without a compromise. Obama is everything that his "biggest critics" want in a president because he promises hope and change to the middle- and lower-class peasants, gives the upper-class everything they want, and never speaks out against anybody in power in a way that could damage their brand. At the same time, his so-called critics bash him in public because they know that a large part of their base still resents Obama because of his skin color and/or his political beliefs, and so they make money bashing him while in reality they just do whatever makes them the most money. Everyone in power follows the money trail these days, and that makes it much harder to know what their actual beliefs are. Kennedy was assassinated because he was an active president who didn't follow the party lines, wasn't afraid to step on people's toes to get done what needed to be done, and ultimately did things his way. JFK truly was the commander-in-chief during his presidency, and had he not been stopped by his own government he could have been the greatest president of all-time (he was sort of like the Tim Richmond of U.S. presidents, as he also had a flamboyant personality). No matter if he did something great (Ex. Cuban Missile Crisis) or did something foolish (Bay of Pigs incident), he always did things his way and because he thought that was in the best interest of the United States. Obama does things in the best interest of the upper class and the corporations and banks that are his and his closest allies at the White House biggest campaign supporters. JFK followed his head, heart, and gut to make decisions, was a real leader, and he was killed because of it. Obama follows his bank account and the ideas brought up by his advisors, is not a real leader, and will live for a long time because of it. That's the difference between JFK and Obama, and that's the difference between society from 50 years ago to where it is now. Everyone just follows the money trail and does whatever they have to do and says whatever they have to say in order to get as much of the money at the end of the trail as they can, and leave their souls, pride, and self-respect checked at the door they came in from. It's sickening. 2813. Paul posted: 02.13.2013 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spen, I would make an age joke, but I'll leave that for DSFF to make ;) From what I've read, William Jennings Bryan was the greatest president that never was. He was a great public speaker and was often the first speaker at the Democratic National Convention in the late 1800s/early 1900s because of his ability to rile up the crowd and get them excited for the rest of the convention. He was always very vocal about his beliefs, which included supporting women's suffrage, prohibition, and his opposing views of the teaching of evolution in public schools in the early 20th century. In fact, the last thing he ever did in his life was participate on the prosecution side of the Scopes Trial in 1925, which his side won, when he and famous attorney Charles Darrow debated whether or not evolution should be taught in public schools. He was so fatigued after the trial and that, along with his diabetes, caused him to die in his sleep just five days later. Whether you agreed with his beliefs or not, you have to respect the fact that he wore them on his sleeve and wasn't afraid to let everyone know what he felt was right. Plus, the man literally killed himself by getting fatigued too much following one of the most famous trials in U.S. history, so I give him major props for that. There are a lot of athletes who wouldn't lay it all out on the line in their professions, and they're making millions of dollars every year. This guy basically talked himself to death for a job that didn't pay as well under an economy that didn't have nearly as much inflation as it does now. William Jennings Bryan. Respect. 2814. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 5:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Paul, I am hardly an "expert" on JFK assassination theories. I have never bought nor read any books about it unlike many people (wanna make money quick? release a JFK conspiracy book, those, those things sell like crazy). I just have read some online articles from both sides, watched some YouTube videos, and even a History Channel show or two. 2815. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul I think the best presidents of the 20th century would be Franklin Delano Roosevelt Theodore Roosevelt Harry S Truman (I am also fond of Eisenhower even though he didn't do much for the majority of his presidency) 2816. Paul posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy shit! I just found the greatest, most masochistically funny story of the year. I won't spoil the details, but I hope DSFF is with other I hope DSFF is around other people when he reads this who can call 911 just in case. The headline reads "Bruton Smith: I'd consider buying Carolina Panthers." All I can say is "...Mother of God." http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/02/12/3850342/bruton-smith-id-consider-buying.html 2817. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) about a month from now it will be the 10th anniversary of Wrestlemania 19 which featured Stone Cold Steve Austin's final match ever which he lost to The Rock this match almost didn't take place as Stone Cold nearly suffered a heart attack the day before the show. Wrestlemania 19 also featured a championship match between Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar as Angle was going into that match with a really banged up neck near the end of the match Lesnar tried to finish of Angle by delivering a shooting star press from the top rope but wound up missing Angle and landing on his head somehow Lesnar would get back to feet and hit Angle with his Finishing move the F5 to get the win. 2818. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Bruton owned the Panthers, I'd hate them worse than I already hate them for having Spam Newton. 2819. Paul posted: 02.13.2013 - 8:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not gonna lie, DSFF, but that was a very "cjs-like" answer you gave me. Benjamin, Eisenhower was also a great general in WWII and was one of the greatest generals in American history (maybe even world history). Plus, he was the last Republican president to have high tax rates (about 90-95%!) on the richest Americans, so the fact that he was looking out for the rest of us is a big win in my view. Perhaps that's why you like him so much. I've gone on record saying that I will root against the Panthers (sorry DSFF) as long as Scam Newton is the starter (if he were to get benched or injured, then I'll root for them again). If Bruton Smith becomes the owner, then I'm afraid I'll have to cross the Panthers off on my "NFL teams that I like" list for good. 2820. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ahhhhhhhh! Cjs like? Just shoot me now. Just kidding cjs, love ya bro, even if you have Pearson ranked SEVENTH all time (I'm honestly way more offended by that than having Dale 4th). I completely understand those who root against the Panthers. Newton is simply unlikeable. I pull for them cause they are my home team, but if they weren't I would certainly root against them and Newton. The good news for you guys is that Cam is NOT a winner at all. He'll put up big numbers, get a lot of press for it, but ultimately fail to produce when it truly matters (he truly is the bizarro Delhomme). As for Bruton buying them, that might not be a bad thing. It would take him about 15 seconds after buying them to move the franchise to LA. Then maybe we can get a different team (Jacksonville?) And start from scratch. This is a flawed roster. Truthfully, as much as I can't stand Bruton, he isn't a whole lot less likeable than the current regime. They are currently threatening to leave Charlotte unless they are given a ton of taxpayer money to upgrade the stadium. I have a few unpleasant thoughts on that. First off, why use taxpayer money when all the Panthers have given back to those of us who truly care about the franchise is a ton of 7-9 seasons since '06 after all sorts of pre season promise. Secondly, that stadium was built in 1996. That is f***ing ridiculous. If you can't plan a multi million dollar stadium any bettet than that, so it is "obsolete" in less than 20 years, then don't dump your lack of vision on the taxpayers. You screwed up, you have billions, pay for the upgrades yourself and while you are at it, build a real team. Assholes. Unfortunately this is far from unprecedented in Charlotte. In 1988, they finished the Charlotte Coliseum for the expansion Hornets. It was demolished in 2006 after the Hornets left town and we got the expansion Bobcats, perhaps the worst run franchise in all of sports, because the arena was "obsolete". We now have a new arena right in the middle of downtown Charlotte that doesn't look a whole lot different inside than the old one. LordLowe, that match was the end of an era, wrestling's most popular and lucrative era. It hasn't even come close to those heights since. Also, for best presidents of the 20th century, don't forget Uncle Ronnie. We sure could use some Reaganomics right about now. 2821. Eric posted: 02.13.2013 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, I understand your frustration about ton of taxpayer money to upgrade stadiums that are under 20 years old. The Milwaukee Bucks claimed that the Bradly Center was "obsolete" even back in the mid 2000's if I remember right and that was for a stadium that was built in 1988 and there was talk about Herb Kohl selling the team and the team moves even for a franchise that only had 5 winning season since the 1990-1991 season ended. 2822. cjs3872 posted: 02.13.2013 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric and DSFF, I'm not sure when it was built, but the people in San Diego would feel the same about the Sports Arena there, because not one, but two NBA teams left there, including the Rockets in the early 70s not all that long after the Sports Arena was built. Then the Buffalo Braves moved to San Diego and became the Clippers in 1977 or '78, and then left themselves in 1984. One problem with an arena can be accessibility. The San Diego Sports Arena is a terribly difficult place to get to, because you really can't access it from the north, becaue there is no access from I-5 South to I-8 West, and the Sports Arena exit is west of I-5. Then there's the quality of the product, which was never that good in the years they were there. Then there's the fact that the one thing about Los Angeles that's always been popular in San Diego has been the Lakers, even when the Clippers were there. In the case of the Carolina Panthers, you have a owner in ex-player Jerry Richardson that's been in poor health for years, but I doubt he'd move the team to Los Angeles, nor would I think that Bruton Smith or anyone else would be allowed to move it there, because that would cause major problems league-wide, because the NFL would have to realign it's divisions again, like it did in 2002. If there's one team that would move to Los Angeles, it would be the Chargers, and the NFL would not have to realign the divisions, but there's one big problem with that. They can't get a stadium built in Los Angeles for the same reasons they can't get one built in San Diego to replace the relic the Chargers play in, and that is the environmentalists and other activists out there won't allow any new stadiums to be built. In fact, they had a heck of a time building Petco Park in San Diego, which opened in 2004 for those very reasons. I believe that if the Chargers got a new stadium built in San Diego, they'd hold the Super Bowl there every four or five years, because I really believe the NFL wants to have Super Bowls there, but they don't have a stadium capable at this time. 2823. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The fact Red isn't already in is a bit of a shame." Yeah,considering that he won both the first Nascar sanctioned event at Daytona Beach in 1948,along with the first National Championship,And the first "Cup" Championship in 1949. Red Byron was a great man that you can read a whole hell of a lot about in the genius book called: Driving with the Devil. Red Byron was an artist at Daytona Beach with 4 wins(3 were non sanctioned)but he's from so far back that people often overlook him. 2824. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drivers of the decade!! 1940's: Red Byron 1950's: Herb Thomas 1960's: Richard Petty(1 fewer Championship than Pearson but won 101 times) 1970's: Richard Petty(5 Championship's and 4 Daytona 500's) 1980's: Dale Earnhardt(3 Championship's despite driving garbage the first half of the decade) 1990's: Jeff Gordon(1 fewer Championship than Dale but was the Master after 1994) 2000'S: Jimmie Johnson(4 straight title's and no lower than fifth in the standing's) 2010's: Who know's? 2825. jabber1990 posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Moody said that Bruton Smith has a bad habit of asking people to spend their own money, last time he spent his money resulted in Bristol...look how that turned out. did he pay for the infrastructure improvements by KY Speedway or did the taxpayers pay for that? im not trying to sound like one of "them" but cant these Multi-billionare owners afford to build their own stadiums instead of using my money you can give me the logic of "well everything is built up around it so everything has to be rebuilt" then why dont they just move to a different part of town, im sure any sports arena is a field of dreams 2826. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm not trying to sound like one of "them" but cant these Multi-billionare owners afford to build their own stadiums instead of using my money?" No. 2827. cjs3872 posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FF, if I remember right, when they did the NASCAR Night in Hollywood in 1998, they did bring out the drivers of the decades, and the following were chosen for those decades: 1950s-Herb Thomas 1960s-Richard Petty 1970s-David Pearson 1980s-Darrell Waltrip 1990s-Dale Earnhardt And if I'm mistaken, then I apologize, but from what I remember, these are the drivers that were chosen for the respective decades. If there's a mistake, it would probably have to do with gettng Petty and Pearson in the wrong order as far as what decade. But aside from possibly nudging Jeff Gordon ahead of Earnhardt for the 90s, I think they got it right. Frankly, while Gordon has the staistical advantage over Earnhardt in every way except chapionships, one dominated one half of the decade and the other drver dominated the other half symetrically. The fairest way to do it for the 90s would be to call Gordon and Earnhardt co-drivers of the decade, sharing the honor. And Jimmie Johnson is obviously the driver of the decade for the 2000s, and probably the only one other than Herb Thomas in the 1950s that would be anything close to an obvious choice. 2828. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872,I actually have a VHS of that event! Great point on Dale and Jeff being co-drivers of the decade. 2829. David posted: 02.13.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, we sure got off that presidents discussion quickly. I'm going to work on memorizing my presidents in order. Until then, I will have my 93 digits of pi to fall back on. "Plus, the man literally killed himself by getting fatigued too much following one of the most famous trials in U.S. history, so I give him major props for that." You give him props for killing himself? 2830. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, the right thing to do is to leave it the way it rightfully is with Dale alone as the driver of the 90's. And Jimmie Johnson is the driver of the 2000s. Sorry Rainbow Nation, that's just the way the chips fall. 2831. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sorry Rainbow Nation, that's just the way the chips fall." Nah,I don't think so. In fact Earnhardt doesn't deserve to even be co-driver with Jeff. Sorry Ironhead Nation. Wins: J.G 49 in 223 starts .219% D.E 35 in 309 starts .113% Poles: J.G 30 D.E 14 Top 5's: J.G 118 in 223 starts .529% D.E 126 in 309 starts .407% Laps Led: J.G 10,238 D.E 9,452 Season's with The Most Wins: J.G 5 out of 7 D.E 1 out of 10 Winner: Jeff Gordon 2832. cjs3872 posted: 02.13.2013 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, the reason I say that I would consider Dale, Sr. and Jeff Gordon co-drivers of the decade for the 1990s was that each dominated one half of the decade symetrically. Dale dominated the first half of the decade from 1990-'94, winning four titles and Gordon dominated the second half of the decade from 1995-'99 winning three titles and the most races five consecutive years. But since each dominated the decade in equal five-year periods (I'm only counting the 90s here), it's only fair for me to consider them co-drivers of the decade. If one driver had dominated a sixth year in the decade, that would have swung the balance either way. As JG24FF noted, Gordon has the statistical advantage, but he took advantage of his situation much Darrell Waltrip took advantage of his from 1978-'84, since Waltrip, like Gordon, was a superstar driver that dominated between eras. 2833. Paul posted: 02.13.2013 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh boy, I sense a fight breaking out. The only fair way is to settle this is to develop a compromise by splitting each decade in half (except for the 1940s for obvious reasons). Here's how I would divide them: 1948-1949: Red Byron 1950-1954: Herb Thomas 1955-1959: Buck Baker/Lee Petty (I can't decide between the two) 1960-1964: Joe Weatherly 1965-1969: David Pearson (he beats out Richard Petty because of his 3 titles to The King's 1) 1970-1974: Richard Petty 1975-1979: Cale Yarborough 1980-1984: Darrell Waltrip 1985-1989: Dale Earnhardt 1990-1994: Dale Earnhardt 1995-1999: Jeff Gordon 2000-2004: Nobody (too many one year contenders in this time frame) 2005-2009: Jimmie Johnson 2010-2014: Jimmie Johnson (so far) 2834. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,good call on "Little" Joe Weatherly for the first half of the sixties. 2835. murb posted: 02.13.2013 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I too would have Earnhardt and Gordon as co-drivers of the 90s. As far as championships go, Earnhardt had more as he had four (1990, 1991, 1993, 1994) while Gordon only had three (1995, 1997, 1998). But I would give both of them the nod for driver of the decade simply because at one point throughout the decade, both of them were THE man to beat (Earnhardt in the early 90s, Jeff in the late 90s, with the "changing of the guard" so to speak coming in the mid 90s). The 2000s is no doubt Jimmie Johnson. The 80s however are very interesting, because as I go back and look at the stats, Earnhardt seems on par with Waltrip. Waltrip had far more wins (57 to Earnhardt's 38), but they both had three championships and it was another "changing of the guard" type of situation as Waltrip dominated the early 80s, and Earnhardt dominated the late 80s (with a transition happening in the mid 80s, just like the mid 90s). So to me, Dale Earnhardt and Darrell Waltrip are the co drivers of the 80s, while Dale Earnhardt and Jeff Gordon are the co drivers of the 90s. Here's an interesting question: Who will be the greatest driver of the 2010s? Right now, I see three guys who can get it done. 1. Brad Keselowski (Already has his first title wrapped up, I see him being a huge force for many years to come.) 2. Kyle Busch (IF he finally has an epiphany and harnesses all of his talent into a Cup championship or two.) 3. Ricky Stenhouse Jr (He's got insane talent too - Cup champion talent. Much like Kyle, he just needs to harness it and figure out the boundaries between going all out for wins and laying back a little. Oh yeah, and IF Danica Patrick and Jack Roush don't screw his career up.) 2836. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As far as championships go, Earnhardt had more as he had four (1990, 1991, 1993, 1994) while Gordon only had three (1995, 1997, 1998)." Gordon had a better Championship percentage with 3 of 7 to Dale's 4 of 10. But Jeff can be forgiven for not dominating his first two season's;) Advantage: Jeff 2837. JG24FanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "2000-2004: Nobody (too many one year contenders in this time frame)" It's Jeff Gordon. Why? Most wins Most Top 5's Most Top 10's Most Laps Led and between 2001-2004,Gordon led the league in Races Led Most every year. So Gordon is the clear Dominant driver for 1995-2004. 2838. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.13.2013 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This isn't freaking rocket science. What ultimately matters when judging a driver that has the chance to drive for championship caliber equipment is championships first and wins second. That is why Darrell Waltrip is the driver of the 80's. Him and Dale are tied with 3 titles apiece. So you go to the next category: wins. Darrell has considerably more, so he is the driver of the 80's. I don't even care, for the sake of this argument, that Dale won his titles for two different teams in two different Generations of cars. Darrell is the driver of the 80's. As for Dale vs Jeff, Dale has 4 titles, Jeff has 3. Discussion over. I don't even have to go into details about how Jeff's own teammate also won a championship over his 90's title span (RCR total race wins in the 90's without Dale: 0). This isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't take away any of his accomplishments. His sharp career peak in producing results just happened at the end of a decade that saw one driver pick up 4 of the first 5 titles. Then, after winning his fourth title in the second year of the 2000s, Jimmie Johnson shows up and Gordon's mind blowing production came to a screeching halt. These are just arbitrary numbers that define decades. It just so happens that Jeff, inarguably, cannot be rightfully called driver of the 1990s or 2000s. The problem is his peak, while unbelievably historic and eye popping, came over a curiously short period of 7 years ('95-'01). 4 championships and 56 wins over that span is out of this world. But from 2002 onwards, he has 29 wins which, while a very nice number, honestly isn't that many more total than drivers like Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch (showed up 2005), Carl Edwards (showed up mid 2004), and Denny Hamlin (showed up 2006). And all of them are head cases. A similar problem could have arisen for Dale whose peak came from '86-'95. The difference is he won all the championship fights he was in (except '89, denying him a fourth 80's title and inarguably driver of the 80's AND 90's, damn it all). "But Jeff can be forgiven for not dominating his first two season's;) Advantage: Jeff " Go look up the 1980 season and see what full time year that season's champion was in. If you are going to give "Advantage Jeff over Dale" cause he wasn't close to a title contender in his second season, then that just flat out doesn't work. I can't believe you even said that in a Dale vs Jeff discussion. 2839. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) You have a point, JG24. Gordon was the best overall driver from 2000-2004, but it was almost like the '91/'02 seasons as far as half-decades in NASCAR are concerned, because there was no clear dominant driver in that part of the decade, almost as if it was saying "Does anyone want to dominate this five-year period?". Gordon did his best with a struggling HMS team in '00, won the title in '01, had a "disappointing" 4th place points finish in '02, finished 4th again in '03 despite having an awful late summer stretch in which he fell from 2nd to 6th in the points after finishing 24th or worse in six out of seven races (one can only wonder if he could have beaten Kenseth for the title had he not had those six bad finishes, each of which he was running in the top ten before he got taken out), and scored the most overall points in '04. So I do agree he was the best driver in that five-year time frame, but I wouldn't consider him or anybody to be the most dominant driver from '00-'04 (that'd be like calling the Buffalo Bills the most dominant team in the NFL from '90-'94 just because they went to four straight Super Bowls, losing each one). If anything, he was the most dominant by default simply because Jimmie hadn't come into his own yet, Stewart was too inconsistent, and a fleet of other drivers like Labonte, Mark, Kenseth, and Kurt would be title contenders one year and off the radar the next. 2840. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 12:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Go look up the 1980 season and see what full time year that season's champion was in. If you are going to give "Advantage Jeff over Dale" cause he wasn't close to a title contender in his second season, then that just flat out doesn't work. I can't believe you even said that in a Dale vs Jeff discussion." How is this comparable to 1994? In 1980 the stars aligned for Big E. He had a fast car,strong team and they were inexperienced enough not to know how to lose. Richard Petty broke his neck at Pocono and Cale had a multitude of mechanical problems. In 1994 Jeff was behind the wheel of garbage that could occasionally win and Mr. Earnhardt was with THE top team in Nascar, and no challenger's after Ernie Irvan nearly died at Michigan. And Gordon ended up beating,according to you,the greatest driver ever for a title in only his third season after Dale had won back-back title's. 2841. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "RCR total race wins in the 90's without Dale: 0" RCR didn't expand into a multi-car team until '97 when they moved Mike Skinner straight up to Cup, Dale was hurt, and the team had already fallen behind technologically. "I don't even have to go into details about how Jeff's own teammate also won a championship over his 90's title span" In case you didn't know, Jeff's teammate was a guy by the name of Terry Labonte, who had already won a championship for the underfunded Billy Hagan team, could have won another one in '82 had he not been released by J.D. Stacy while leading the points, and was named one of the 50 greatest drivers in NASCAR history in 1998. I don't see the shame in losing to one of the sport's all-time greats. And at least Jeff got beat by the Labonte brother who could put together more than two great seasons, which Dale couldn't do in 2000. Yeah I know, Dale was a lot more older than Jeff was, but as you have said over and over and over again, a driver's prime takes place between ages 28-38, and Jeff was only 25 years old when the '96 season ended, while Dale was 49 years old in '00. Plus, Dale had already won seven titles and lost to a guy who only won one, while Jeff had only won his first title the season before and lost to a past series champion who is also one of the sport's all-time greats. Funny how Dale gets a pass and Jeff doesn't, but I'm sure that's because Jeff always had competent teammates and Dale never did. "Then, after winning his fourth title in the second year of the 2000s, Jimmie Johnson shows up and Gordon's mind blowing production came to a screeching halt." Jeff's production began to come to a halt in 2002 because of three personal tragedies all occurred in about a one year span. First his good friend dies in a crash at Daytona, then he has a falling out with his step-dad and loses the biggest role model in his life, and then his wife files for divorce and pretty much took everything away from him. I know it sounds like an excuse to blame his on-track performance on events that occurred in real life, but sometimes people get distracted by their personal life and it affects how they perform in their daily jobs. It wasn't like Jimmie just showed up in '02 and Jeff just crawled into a fetal position and let Jimmie walk all over him, it was just ironic that the Jimmie started to get really good at the same time that Jeff was beginning to struggle. By the time Jeff finally got his personal life back on track in '06-'07, Jimmie had already established himself as the No. 1 driver in the HMS camp, and so he was going to get the best equipment from the team. And who's to say that Jeff couldn't have had a career resurgence following his defeat for the 2007 championship in what was the least deserving championship win in the modern era, had he not hurt his back in the 3rd race of the '08 season, then again in qualifying for the 13th race of the '09 season, and again in the 22nd race of the '09 season. I just don't think it's fair to say that Jimmie is better than Jeff because there were a lot of things that happened to the latter driver that were beyond his control. Now some people will probably say "Well if Jeff is so great, why couldn't he overcome these events in his life and beat Jimmie head-to-head when he had the chance?" Because we're all wired differently. I wouldn't judge any of you if your performance at your job slipped after you had to deal with personal losses/tragedies and injuries, and I don't think it's fair to say that Jeff should have overcome them because he's a professional athlete and athletes are supposed to shake off all distractions. Who are we to judge you by how you deal with personal issues? And who are you to judge a professional athlete, whether they be a stick & ball player or a race car driver, on how they deal with their personal issues? That's all I've got to say. 2842. murb posted: 02.14.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another hardcore debate session it looks like!!!! lol "one can only wonder if he could have beaten Kenseth for the title had he not had those six bad finishes" Never really thought about it. If I remember correctly, Jeff had a couple wins late (at Atlanta and Martinsville) while Kenseth had a couple bad runs at Kansas and Talladega. I certainly think that it would have been much more of a fight had Jeff not had that bad luck stretch in the Summer. But overall, I don't think he could have outmatched the 17's overall consistency. I think Kenseth had racked up enough of a cushion (due to the beauty of the old point system) throughout Spring and Summer of that year to win whatever battle there might have been. 2843. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FF, you forgot to mention that, in addition to the fact that Richard Petty broke his neck at Pocono, every othr driver capable of challenging Earnhardt for the title was changing teams for 1981. Cale had decided to leave Junior Johnson because he didn't want to drive full-time any more, Benny Parsons, who many actually consdered the favorite for the title in 1980, was leaving M.C. Anderson's team, Bobby Allison was leaving Bud Moore's team, and Darrell Waltrip was leaving DiGard Racing, and they were Earnhardt's competition for the title in 1980. Also, when you talk about the seasons in the early 90s compared to 2002, were you referring to the 1991 or 1992 season, because both of those seasons were actually pretty similar. And for you fans of old-time NASCAR, ESPN Classic's got something late next week. Among the classic Daytona 500 races that are being scheduled to air on ESPN Classic for the first time next week. On Thursday, February 21, ESPN Classic is scheduled to air the wild 1983 race. And here's a real treat for those that can remember when ABC broadcast the Daytona 500, if it's broadcast as currently planned. On Friday, Feburary 22, ESPN Classic is currently scheduled to air, for the first time, the 1973 and 1978 Daytona 500s, both of which were broadcast by the legendary Jim McKay. I don't know who was his analyst in 1973, but Jackie Stewart was in the booth with him in 1978 with Chris Economaki in the pits. And as for the 1983 race, let's hope that at last some of the action between laps 70-110 are shown, because that 100-mile segment of the 1983 race was not shown when SPEED aired that race on it's NASCAR Classics series. Last year, ESPN Classic showed all of the parts of the 1989 Daytona 500 that were not aired on SPEED's NASCAR Classics aring of that race, including the huge lap 72 crash. And by the way, the 1973 race was done on ABC's Wide World of Sports, and if it's shown, it would mark the first time one of those old Wide World of Sports Daytona 500s have made it to ESPN Classic. As of now, the only Daytona 500 broadcast on ABC that has ever aired on ESPN Classic was that legendary 1976 race. But a week from Friday, both the 1973 WWoS Daytona 500 broadcast and the 1978 Daytona 500, which was a live broadcast, are scheduled to air for the first time, as is the 1983 race the day before, as ESPN Classic is celebrating the 30th anniversary of the 1983 race, won by Cale Yarborough, the 35th anniversary of the 1978 race, won by Bobby Allison, and the 40th anniversary of the 1973 race, won by Richard Petty. Anniversaries of three old Daytona 500s, each won by a bonified racing legend. Let's just hope they all make it to air so today's fans can see those races and how the racing was back in those days. 2844. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "How is this comparable to 1994?" Is it because it was both their second seasons? "He had a fast car" David Ifft, Benny Parsons' crew chief and borderline legend atop the box disagrees. In fact that was one of the main stories of the title fight that year, Dale's lack of horsepower. There was a Sports Illustrated article and everything. "strong team" the crew chief bailed in late May, the owner would bail the next season (then return later in the decade with the hilariously slow Heinz 57 car), the team manager, Wlodyka, was an ass clown, and they didn't even have a major sponsor! " they were inexperienced enough not to know how to lose" Huh? "Richard Petty broke his neck at Pocono" He was already on the decline, his '79 title was more about Darrell's epic choke. "Cale had a multitude of mechanical problems." Dale blew 4 engines. "In 1994 Jeff was behind the wheel of garbage" Garbage? Terry won 3 races that season in the same equipment. "Mr. Earnhardt was with THE top team in Nascar" Penske and Yates were much faster. "And Gordon ended up beating,according to you,the greatest driver ever for a title in only his third season after Dale had won back-back title's." He didn't really "beat" Dale, he just coughed up a 302 point lead in the last 4 races to make the final margain look a lot closer than it really was. Sterling Marlin was in second for a lot of the year in points. 2845. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I went ahead to look at the entire ESPN Classic schedule for all NASCAR-related content that will air between now and the Daytona 500. Here's what it looks like: (All times are in Eastern Standard Time) Friday, February 15 12:00 AM - SportsCentury: Dale Earnhardt 1:00 AM - 1998 Daytona 500 3:00 AM - 3 Nation: The Life and Legacy of Dale Earnhardt 4:00 AM - SportsCentury: Dale Earnhardt 5:00 AM - 3 Nation: The Life and Legacy of Dale Earnhardt 7:00 AM - 1998 Daytona 500 9:00 AM - SportsCentury: Dale Earnhardt Wednesday, February 20 7:00 AM - Schaap One on One: Richard Petty 8:30 AM - SportsCentury: Mario Andretti 9:30 AM - SportsCentury: Tim Flock 10:30 AM - SportsCentury: Jeff Gordon 11:00 AM - 1993 Daytona 500 1:00 PM - 2007 Daytona 500 3:00 PM - 1997 Daytona 500 5:00 PM - 1999 Daytona 500 Thursday, February 21 8:00 AM - 30 For 30: Tim Richmond 9:00 AM - 3 Nation: The Life and Legacy of Dale Earnhardt 10:00 AM - SportsCentury: Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 11:00 AM - SportsCentury: Dale Earnhardt 12:00 PM - 1976 Daytona 500 1:00 PM - 1981 Daytona 500 3:00 PM - 1983 Daytona 500 5:00 PM - 1979 Daytona 500 Friday, February 22 7:30 AM - 1998 Daytona 500 9:30 AM - SportsCentury: Tony Stewart 10:30 AM - Schaap One on One: Richard Petty 11:00 AM - SportsCentury: Richard Petty 12:00 PM - 1973 Daytona 500 1:00 PM - 1978 Daytona 500 2:00 PM - 1988 Daytona 500 4:00 PM - 1993 Daytona 500 6:00 PM - 1998 Daytona 500 Saturday, February 23 5:00 AM - 30 For 30: Tim Richmond 6:30 PM - ESPN Films: Senna Sunday, February 24 1:45 AM - ESPN Films: Senna 3:30 PM - 30 For 30: Tim Richmond 4:30 PM - ESPN Films: Senna Obviously Senna never competed in NASCAR and Mario Andretti only made a few starts in the series, but I felt it was worth putting their names down anyways since it's not very often that ESPN airs NASCAR footage. Personally I'm always watching ESPN Classic as I love the nostalgia of the station, even if they're airing a sport that I don't care that much about like basketball or boxing, so I know I'll be watching a lot of this stuff (although I'm not sure if I'll be able to watch Dale get his first Daytona 500 victory as many times as it'll be aired over the next week and a half). I wish that they would air some other Daytona 500s that are rarely seen in their entirety, like the '86, '90, '91, '92, '94, '95, and '02 races. Plus I wouldn't mind seeing the entire 2000 race just to see if it was as bad as people say it was, as I've never watched the whole thing before, but it's probably for the best that they don't air that race. 2846. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "RCR didn't expand into a multi-car team until '97 when they moved Mike Skinner straight up to Cup, Dale was hurt, and the team had already fallen behind technologically." Exactly! How in the hell is that a 6 time champion organization? Dale Earnhardt, that's why. "I don't see the shame in losing to one of the sport's all-time greats." The shame comes from Jeff being in the same equipment. "Funny how Dale gets a pass and Jeff doesn't" It's not that Jeff had more competent teammates (which he did), it's that he got beat by his own teammate. They were driving the same cars! In 2000, Dale was driving for RCR that was recovering from falling way behind the technology curve for the previous 5 seasons. Bobby was driving for a JGR team that was ready, as it was their 1st of 3 championships in six seasons. In 1996, Terry was driving for Hendrick Motorsports. Jeff was driving for Hendrick Motorsports. "every othr driver capable of challenging Earnhardt for the title was changing teams for 1981." Which explains why Cale actually did better after announcing he was leaving, winning more races and actually putting pressure on Dale late (same is true for Darrell in '86). And what about Darian Grubb in the 2011 cha$e? "were you referring to the 1991 or 1992 season, because both of those seasons were actually pretty similar." '91. At least Davey had an excuse in '92 with all the awful injuries he suffered, especially after Pocono (Bill and Junior simply fell apart). I don't know why both Dale and Ricky decided to quit running worth a shit down the stretch in '91. 2847. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Plus I wouldn't mind seeing the entire 2000 race just to see if it was as bad as people say it was" It was, do yourself a favor and skip that one. That is three hours you'll never get back. 2848. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.14.2013 - 6:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even though I think that this may be the stupidest debate ever had on these forums, I will chime in. Yes, Jeff absolutely obliterated the competition from 95-99, but Dale won 4 titles to Jeff's 3, AND Dale was a top-notch driver for the entirety of the decade, even if he didn't win in 1997. Advantage: Dale This comes from a guy who has been a Jeff fan since he can remember. 2849. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.14.2013 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2000 Daytona 500 ~ I'm biased, so it is one of my favorite Speedweeks as a Jarrett fan. So many wins, Bud Shootout qualifier, Bud Shootout, Daytona 500 Pole, the 500 itself. In addition, he was second in the Gatorade Twin 125. If not for Bill Elliott, Jarrett would have had a clean sweep of 2000 Speedweeks. The best display dominance of one Speedweeks: Dale Jarrett in 2000. Hands down. 2850. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, about your saying Penske and Yates were much faster than Childress in 1994. Penske won more races with Rusty Wallace in both 1993 and '94, but were weaker in more areas than was Childress, and I do agree that Yates was faster and not as weak as Childress, which is why it was a shame that the fans were robbed of what I think would have been an epic battle between Ernie Irvan and Dale Earnhardt for the title that year due to the tire war (yes, I do blame Ernie's crash at Michigan on the tire war). Had Ernie not been injured, I think it would have gone right down to the wire, though I believe Earnhardt and Childress would probably have won it for the same reason that Richard Petty won it in '79 and Darrell Waltrip won it in '85, and that is their greater experience. It is also for the reason you gave regarding the speed of the Fords in 1994 why I keep saying Earnhardt's TEAM was better, though another way he would have been aided was with that ridiculous champion's pit selection that existed then that benefitted Earnhardt more than anyone else because of how poor a qualifier he was. And also, I don't know who classified Hendrick's equipment in 1994 as "garbage", but they're way off. After all, Jeff Gordon won two of the biggest races on the circuit, including perhaps the biggest in the history of the sport, the inaugural Brickyard 400 at Indianapolis, Terry Labonte won three times, which was more than he had ever won in any one season (he duplicated that the next year), and Ken Schrader had his best season, finishing fourth in the championship standings. Whoever said that obviously needs to check the records for that season. Also, in 1992, the Fords had a huge advantage most of the year, which is why Dale Earnhardt and Ricky Rudd didn't run that well most of the year. In fact, Rudd's only win that season came at the fall race at Dover. Actually, the two most productive Chevrolet drivers that year were Ernie Irvan and Darrell Waltrip, who each won three times, all of Waltrip's coming in August or September, and were the last wins of his career. And Paul, the reason ESPN Classic does't show full events is because they air them in a 2-hour programming block, which is why they don't show classic MLB or NBA games in their entireity. And I'm not sure the 1995 Daytona 500 is worth putting on, as dull as it was. Actually, that was the race that began the competitive downturn of the Daytona 500 that existed all the way through 2007, because there was imply no passing up front, the reason for which (negative air pressure) was explained in the 2002 race. 2851. Daniel posted: 02.14.2013 - 10:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only thing interesting about the 2000 500 was to see if Johnny Benson was going to be able to hold on to pull a huge upset in a car that came into speedweeks unsponsored and only picked up a sponsor at the last minute from Lycos. 2852. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Jarrett88fan, there have been SpeedWeeks performances equaly, if not more dominating than Jarrett's in 2000. For instance, Fireball Roberts (1962), cale Yarborough (1984), and Bill Elliott (1985) are the only three drvers to swep the pole, qualifying race, and the Daytona 500 in the same year. Cale would also have likely done so in 1968, but the qualifying races were rained out that year. Richard Petty nearly did so in 1966, but Paul Goldsmith passed him on the last lap of the first qualifying race, Bobby Allison dominated SpeedWeeks in 1981 and '82, winning the Daytona 500 in '82. Bill Elliott was the dominant force again in 1987, but Ken Schrader denied him a clean sweep by beating him by inches in the first qualifying race, Schrader dominated SpeedWeeks in 1989, but Darrell Waltrip beat him in the Dayotna 500 on fuel mileage. And Dale Earhardt had a number of dominating SpeedWeeks performances, culminating in his 1998 Daytona 500 win, so while I would put Jarrett's 2000 SpeedWeeks in the top 10-12, I hardly think it was the most dominant ever. 2853. David posted: 02.14.2013 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Next time, tell me when you guys are going to have an epic debate through the night. I could have channeled my inner mathematician. Just kidding. 2854. Eric posted: 02.14.2013 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, JG24FanForever on post 2840 is the poster that claimed was Hendrick's 1994 equipment as garbage. 2855. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, from what I've heard, the '98 Daytona 500 was a pretty dull race as well, yet it is being aired more than any other Daytona 500 this upcoming week because of who won. I just think that watching the '98 Daytona 500 would have more meaning if they aired each of Earnhardt's close Daytona 500 defeats, which the '95 race was as he was narrowly beaten by Sterling Marlin (who was going for his 2nd career win and his 2nd straight Daytona 500 win). I think that would make for great TV because fans would have to watch each of his defeats first, and that would add more meaning for when he finally won the thing in '98. 2856. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jarrett doesn't get the respect he deserves. For a guy who has won 32 races, three Daytona 500s, three spring Darlington races, the 1999 Cup, had six straight top five points finishes during Jeff Gordon's dominance of the sport, I find it shocking how much his career numbers seem to be diminished by his critics, especially those that say it was his equipment that won him all those races, not him. Plus, in his championship season, Jarrett had just five finishes outside the top ten (just like Earnhardt in '87 and Gordon in '98) and had an average finish of 6.8. The only drivers in the modern era to have a better average finish were Richard Petty ('72, '75, '79), Bobby Allison ('72), Cale Yarborough ('74, '77, '78), Dale Earnhardt ('87), Bill Elliott ('88), Mark Martin ('90), and Jeff Gordon ('98), and each of those drivers are/will be Hall of Famers. I'm not saying Jarrett should be right alongside those guys necessarily, but I do think he deserves more respect than he's been given for all that he accomplished in his career, especially for a guy who didn't get his first break until he was 34 years old in 1991. 2857. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski will be in the Fox broadcast booth on Saturday night for the Sprint Unlimited. I don't know if he will be broadcasting for the entire race or just a few segments, but the race will not be a Brad-free zone. 2858. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, another reason ESPN Classic is airing the 1998 Daytona 500 ore than usual is because this year marks the 15th anniersary of that race. In fact, tomorrow will be the 15th anniversary of that event, and ESPN Classic is known for airing stuff on special anniversaries, hence their first-ever airings of the 1973, 1978, and 1983 races next week, because this year marks anniversaries of each of those races. But yes, almost every Daytona 500 from 1995-2007 were pretty dull races, the only exceptions being 1996, 2001, and 2006. And obviously, given your opinions on Dale Jarrett, I'm not the only one that thinks highly of his career, because I rated him 22nd when I ranked my top 40 drivers in series history, something that was looked down on by many posters on this site. But although Jarrett never won the Southern 500 or the All-Star Race, he won 3 Daytona 500s, the 1999 Firecracker 400, 2 Brickyard 400s, 3 400-mile spring races at Darlington, won at Bristol, Martinsville, Richmond, and Rockingham, and 3 times at Charlotte, including a dominant performance in the 1996 Coca-Cola 600. The thing that hurts Jarrett is that he was overshadowed by Jeff Gordon during most of his best years. But the fact remains that he held his own against Gordon about as well as anyone else when Gordon was at his peak. And let's also not forget that he stared down perhaps the toughest driver in the last 35 years (Dale, Sr.) in the sport's biggest event twice, and came out victorious both times. 2859. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe JG24 said that the HMS cars were garbage in 1994 because their best car had 0 wins and finished 634 points behind Dale Earnhardt for the championship. Considering how "Dale Earnhardt drove junk when he was with RCR" is a frequent talking point on this board, if that truly is the case, then by putting two-and-two together, that must mean that HMS was garbage in '94, consider how they got beat by a junk team. I'm not saying that's true, but since Dale was always driving junk and he beat HMS by over 600 points and had more wins than all three HMS drivers, then that must mean that HMS was garage that year. Right? Right? If Dale Earnhardt could win back-to-back titles driving junk, then every other driver must have been driving garbage because they lost to a guy two years in a row who was driving junk. Or at least, that's the solution that I'm getting. I'm sure a few of you will twist those words around and say "Dale was the greatest driver ever, so of course he could beat much better teams while driving junk equipment," and then turn around and say "Jeff Gordon only beat Dale in '95 because he had better equipment," but I've come to accept that. All I know is that NASCAR is a team sport. The best team won the title in '94, just like how the best team in '95. And the best team also won the title from '96-'03, '05-'06, '09, and '12 (the team that won in '04, '07-'08, and '10-'11 was the best team for the final 10 races). 2860. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 1998 Daytona 500 is tough rewatch and stay awake. At the time it was pretty dramatic because you knew Dale had an excellent car yet again, but the drama hung over as to either a) what is gonna happen to him this year (I don't know about you guys, but when I suddenly saw Dale flipping on the backstretch in the '97 Daytona 500 in the closing laps I said "there it is" before wondering if he was ok) or b) is he actually gonna win it? What will happen if he wins it? What will that be like? Sure enough he won it and the reaction he was given and his reaction to finally winning it was priceless, way beyond how I dreamed of it. But rewatching it now, knowing the result, those first 195 laps aren't worth a damn. But the ending still gives me chills. Those crew guys lining up. You will NEVER see that again. "Brad Keselowski will be in the Fox broadcast booth on Saturday night for the Sprint Unlimited." Hope he isn't turning into Carl Edwards lol. As long as he doesn't turn up there after crashing or blowing up in a race. "Fireball Roberts (1962)" Fireball beat the shit out of DIS in '62. He won the (at the time) 100 mile qualifying race, the pole race and the All Star Race (I honestly have no idea what the format to those two races were), then won the Daytona 500. And if that wasn't bad enough, he came back in July and won the Firecracker 250 (They changed it to a 400 mile event the following year, and he won that one). Fireball 5, Everyone Else 0. 2861. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Those crew guys lining up. You will NEVER see that again." The only driver who might get a similar reaction from opposing teams would be Mark Martin, but the fact that he's hung around for so long with his Brett Favre-like shtick might have turned some people off in the garage area. Speaking of Brad Keselowski, apparently Jimmie Johnson wasn't a fan of his beer drinking post-race interview after Homestead, saying that Brad "has some growing up to do." That's funny because if I remember correctly, I believe it was Jimmie Johnson who went up on the SPEED post-race stage and shook hands and had a few laughs with Brad about their championship bout. So he didn't seem to have a problem with it then. And if you know anything about Jimmie Johnson, he enjoys drinking beer with his buddies during off-weeks, as well as a good portion of the offseason. So it's okay for him to get wasted with his buddies when the camera isn't on him, but it's not okay for Brad to have a few beers while celebrating his championship victory, not expecting to be put on camera while visibly intoxicated? Kiss my ass you corporate sell-out! 2862. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.14.2013 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, all the mentions of Fireball, Yarborough and Elliot are nice historical comparisons. However, my criteria for comparing Daytona Speedweeks events consists of a clean sweep of every event a Cup driver competes in. (i.e., Shootout, Qualifying, Twin, 500 itself) and by that criteria, Jarrett's performance in 2000 was the best Speedweeks. Jarrett won every event/qualifying, except the Gatorade Twin 125 when Bill Elliott forced a lead change (very difficult to pass the leader in 2000, due to the shock and spring package) on the first lap and wnet on to finish second. Now based on a different criteria, wining the pole, qualifying race, Daytona 500, only the three after-mentioned drivers accomplished that feat, which is extremely difficult to do. 2863. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "David Ifft, Benny Parsons' crew chief and borderline legend atop the box disagrees. In fact that was one of the main stories of the title fight that year, Dale's lack of horsepower. There was a Sports Illustrated article and everything." Advantage: DSFF "Huh?" I was quoting an article from that season's Nascar Scene. Not my words. And yeah I realized later that Terry had 3 wins in 1994,and felt kinda stupid for that statement so i'll own up that my argument was just a little more than off:) 2864. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The entry list for the Daytona 500 is out and only 45 drivers are on it. Here are some notable part-time drivers: #19 - Mike Bliss #21 - Trevor Bayne #26 - Michael Waltrip (normally #30) #32 - Terry Labonte #33 - Austin Dillon #36 - J.J. Yeley #51 - Regan Smith #52 - Brian Keselowski #55 - Mark Martin #95 - Scott Speed Swan Racing changed their number for this race because of a special paint scheme they have they honors the 26 victims from the Sandy Hook shooting last December. From what I've heard, Yeley is only part-time with TBR right now, but it's possible that he could drive a full schedule this season with a few start-and-parks along the way for when he doesn't have sponsorship. 2865. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Back to the Driver of the nineties debate! Earnhardt raced in all 10 seasons. Championships: 4 (1990-91,1993-94) Victory Crowns: 1 (1990) Laps Led Crowns: 1 (1990) Races Led Most Crowns: 1 (1990) Poles Crowns: 1 (1990) Daytona 500's: 1 (1998) Southern 500's: 1 (1990) Road-Race wins: 1 (1995) Jeff Gordon raced in only 7 seasons. Championships: 3 (1995,1997-98) Victory Crowns: 5 (1995-99) Laps Led Crowns: 3 (1995-96,1998-99) Races Led Most Crowns: 4 (1995-96,1998-99) Pole Crowns: 4 (1995-96,1998-99) Daytona 500's: 2 (1997,1999) Southern 500's: 4 (1995-99) Road-Race wins: 5 in a row from 1997-99 How does one more Championship beat this? 2866. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Laps Led Crowns: 3 (1995-96,1999) 2867. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Poles Crowns: 1 (1990)" If I didn't know any better, I'd say every other team did what the #11 team did at Loudon last fall and left the wrong air pressures in the tires during qualifying. 2868. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, HaHa Want a fun stat for the Dale vs Jeff debate: Gordon has 50 more Poles than Big E. But also the same number of victory's from a qualifying position of 11th or worse, at an all-time record of 25. Which he tied Dale for at the very race we're leaving comments on. 2869. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What's even more amazing than that, JG24, is that NASCAR used to (as cjs has mentioned several times) give the past series champion/active driver with the most titles (I forget which one it was) the number 1 pit stall, meaning that Dale would have a huge advantage over other teams on pit road, no matter where he started. And considering how Dale was a notoriously mediocre qualifier, where he qualified didn't necessarily matter because he always got the best pit stall. Geoff Bodine himself said in an interview a couple years ago that where a driver qualified didn't really matter, but it indirectly was beneficial to start near the front because that meant getting a better pit selection. I do find it interesting that Dale and Jeff now have the same number of wins from non-top ten starting positions, especially considering how many times Dale started outside the top ten in his career compared to Jeff, and even more so because of the advantage that he had over other drivers via his pit selection. I wouldn't rank Jeff ahead of Dale for that reason though, as I still have Dale ranked at #2 behind Richard Petty, but I think that only increases Jeff's legend because he has done so many things that Dale was never able to do. It's one thing to win when you're always starting near the front, but to win so many times no matter where you are starting on the track just goes to show you how great Jeff Gordon really was/is. 2870. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,the reason I like the Pole stat is because the drivers are driving at the maximum limit of the car, and many drivers will tell you that qualifying is the most nervous time they have in the car. I read an article in Nascar Illustrated about his last year. It was the issue with highlights from J G's 85th,and probably,greatest ever victory. 2871. JG24FanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *I read an article in Nascar Illustrated about this last year. 2872. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me make this simple: Dale Earnhardt is Joe Montana, Jeff Gordon is Peyton Manning. 2873. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 02.14.2013 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just wanted to mention that LOGANO was predicted as champ by someone on the motor racing network, along with Hamlin, Johnson and Kyle Busch. This is not the first time I have felt that the people who cover nascar watch a completely different sport to me. Apart from the frontstretch and Mike Mulhearn that is. Just wanted to make the point that Gordon is no longer a roadcourse expert.He has not scored a top5 at the glen since 01.Evernham does not get as much credit for the success compared to Knaus with Johnson.In most cases people say Johnson has greatly benefitted and Knaus has made him, where as Evernham-Gordon Petty-Inma and even Keselowski-Wolfe are seen as symbiotic partnerships where both were seen as key. Also just to point out that Gordon is the most versatile driver along with Petty in nascar look at how he has nearly 15 top 5s at every track that he has raced on for the majority of his career.And he has one and been successful with multiple crew chiefs. It is a bit harsh by one of the Gordon fans to note Gordon has 40 wins without Evernham and Johnson 2 without Chad when Chad is his only full time cc. And Johnson will not reach Gordons number of wins definetely will not reach his number of top5s and probably will not reach his no. of top10s Some 2874. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Dale Earnhardt is Joe Montana, then that means he must have had the best team in the sport all those years when he was on top of the mountain, thereby making the argument that he won all of his championships driving in RCR's junk equipment invalid. Montana made his teams better, no question about it, but he didn't win four Super Bowls all by himself. If Dale really is Joe Montana, then you have to admit that his team was the best in the sport all seven times that he won the championship, including the six times that he won it in "RCR's shitboxes." And Jeff Gordon is only Peyton Manning in the sense that he has his best performances in the regular season, but for whatever reason isn't able to duplicate that success in the post-season. But in terms of clutch performances, they're not even close as Jeff is FAR more clutch in the big races than Peyton is in the big games. Jeff never lost a shot at the championship by making a mistake (I'll spare you the details on why he didn't lose the '96 title because I've beaten that drum too many times), while Peyton has a laundry list of losing playoff games to less-talented teams (Jets in '02 and '10, Patriots in '04, Steelers in '05, Chargers in '07 and '08, and the Ravens this past season). The only reason why they look similar is because Jeff's driving style is more suitable for a full 36-race season, not a season where only the final 10 races matter in the end because of how the points get reset. If not for that, they'd be in two completely different classes when compared head-to-head. If it was up to me, I would take the top 12 drivers after 26 races and make it so the 12th place driver has 2,000 points. Then I would add points to each driver so that they would be separated in points by the exact margin that they were following the 26th race, and give each driver three bonus points for each win that they had. I think that's the only way to have a proper Chase for the Championship in NASCAR, and until that happens, or until they revert back to the pre-2004 points system, each championship will have less meaning that it normally would have. 2875. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.14.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The "driver of the 1990s" should always be splint in half, with Dale taking the first half and Jeff the second half. Many of us (myself included) want to see Chad and Jimmie break up and see what happens. If Jimmie can get back to winning championships without Knaus, he will wiggle his way into the top 3-5 greatest drivers of all time debate. 2876. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Similarities between Montana/Manning and Earnhardt/Gordon: -3 less championships for Manning/Earnhardt -Montana/Earnhardt have many more clutch and memorable moments -Manning/Gordon have the eye popping historic numbers but a curiously disproportionate championship total -Manning/Gordon have notorious issues closing a season, rarely step it up when the championship hangs in the balance. -Blue collar backgrounds for Montana/Earnhardt, well off childhoods for Manning/Gordon -Dale was abducted by aliens for the '92 season, Joe was abducted before the '87 Divisional round -Injuries cost Joe the '90 championship and Dale the '96 championship -The '93 Divisional game vs the Oilers for Montana's last miracle, the '00 Winston 500 for Earnhardt's last miracle -the '94 MNF game where Joe out clutched "comeback king" John Elway, 2000 Spring Atlanta where Dale out Atlantaed "Atlanta king" Bobby Labonte, to remind everyone else that they are Montana/Earnhardt and you are not -Manning/Gordon aren't even the best of their generation, Brady/Johnson are -Manning isn't even the best Colt ever, Johnny U is, Gordon isn't the best Hendrick driver ever, JJ is -Montana won a Super Bowl without Walsh, two before Rice showed up, and won TWO playoff games with Schottenheimer (!!!), Dale won one without Richard, with Rod Osterlund -Montana had the criminally underrated Roger Craig, Dale had the criminally underrated Kirk Shelmerdine -In summation, Manning/Gordon have numbers, Montana/Earnhardt have the hardware Of course, the BIG difference: -The Niners won a Super Bowl after they traded Joe, RCR..... not so much lol 2877. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, quit being a dick. It's obvious at this point that you're just here to make up imaginary arguments to knock Jeff and pump you're precious pimp and his harem. 2878. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, 3 less championships for Manning/*Gordon 2879. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jarrett88fan, if you base it off that, then Bill Elliott's 1987 SpeedWeeks was the best, because he won the pole, the Busch Clash, lost to Ken Schrader by inches in thequalifyig race, and led more than half the race en route to winnng the Daytona 500. Since the inauguration of the Busch Clash in 1979, that's the closest anyone's come to a clean sweep of SpeedWeeks, and you have to put a line of demarkation there because of the extra event added in 1979. I mentioned that ESPN Classic is planning to air the 1973 Daytona 500 next week to commemorate that event's 40th anniversary. Buddy Baker had a car as dominant that SpeedWeeks as any in history, as he won the pole, qualifying race,and then led the fourth-most laps in a single race in event history (156) but he got behind as a result of a slow final pit stop and blew his enine trying to catch Richard Petty. And of course, there's the most dominant modern-era car in Daytona 500 history, the one Bill Elliott used to completely dominate with. But he was surpisingly a non-factor in the Busch Clash that year, havig to rally to finish third, as Terry Labonte dominated that event. Another dominating performance in SpeedWeeks that s often overlooked (perhaps because it was before the 1979 race)was Cale Yarborough's performance in 1977. Though he didn't win the pole (Donnie Allison got that), Yarborough decimated the field in the qualifying race and led 137 laps, the sixth-highest total by a winner, and easily won his second Daytona 500, despite nearly getting caught up in the Walther-Baker-Marcis crash about 300 miles while trying to catch up after having a flat tire just about 10 laps before that. Yarborough even won the IROC race at Daytona that year. 2880. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "-In summation, Manning/Gordon have numbers, Montana/Earnhardt have the hardware" Last I checked the Daytona 500 trophy is a pretty big piece of hardware as well. So is the Brickyard 400 trophy. Gordon has seven of those trophies, Earnhardt has only two. Plus, Gordon has 11 more points-paying trophies than Earnhardt. But yeah, I guess Earnhardt does have more hardware. 2881. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I've sais ths before, but what I would do after the 26th race is to take all the Chasers and give them 2000 points, then take the top ten and give each a three point bump based on position (2003 for 10th, 2006 for ninth, etc. to 2030 for the leader), which would make position in the standings matter. Then after the points postion seeding bonuses are given, another three points for each victory are added so that just simply cruising isn't rewarded, but neither would wild inconsistency, but a cmbintion of both, bcause neither is realy rewarded thaeway it should be with the crent points system. Cruising is rewarded with the points payout for each race, and aggression and victories is rewarded only after the 26th race, and too much. But balancing the two had some interesting results when I did it last year, because it gives the top drivers a chance for some pre-Chase separation, and it also penalizes drivers for coasting, but not too heavily because points position also would matter, since the seeding based on points postion after the 26th race would occur prior to the win bonuses being added in. After all, you could be 10th and have six wins, six DNFs, and six other bad finishes, but under he current system, if you have six wins, what you do in the other 20 races dosn't matter as long as you're in the top ten, because you'd probably still be the leader, and that's wrong. I've always had the opinion that EVERY race should matter when deciding a champion. After all, a true champion does it on every kind of track and under just about every kind of circumstance. No less of a champion than Dale Earnhardt, Sr. said that one of the biggest wins in his career was when he won at Sonoma in 1995 because he had finally won on a road course, the one type of track he had never conquered. Like most chapions, Dale, Sr. was of the opinion that he needed to be able to win on any type of track and under any kind of circumstance, which was why he counted that win among his most important, even though it was not a big race. 2882. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, in defense of Dale, Sr. where the Brickyard 400 is concerned, that event didn't come into being until his 16th year on the circuit, so it's natural that he wouldn't have the success in that race that someone that's had it his entire career would have. In fact, based on that, he was lucky to have even won it once. After all, only two of his contemporaries, Ricky Rudd and Bill Elliott ever won that race. Rusty Wallace never won it, though he was second three times, Terry Labonte was never really good there, Mark Martin never won it, though he finished second twice, and Darrell Waltrip was never competitve there since it began when his competitve days were practically over. So in a way, Dale, Sr. was lucky to win at Indy at all. But he captured more than enough other big trophies to offset that overthe years. 2883. Eric posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, Not all of Joe Montana's super bowl teams were really the best. The 1981 49er team was the worst of the Joe Montana lead teams going to the Super Bowl from an offensive Stat standpoint and in talent also. The 1981 49ers really wasn't the greatest team of the NFL from an Offensive side of the football that season. The 1981 49ers had a great defense, a great coach and a great Quarterback. The 49ers running game was only the 19th best of the league.. The 49ers depended on Joe Montana for offense. That 49er team had no Jerry Rice or Roger Craig. The 49ers were only the 13th best team in yards gained on offense that year. The 1981 49ers on Offense didn't have a star running back. The 49ers had Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. The thing is the 1981 49ers team had a great defense, but the 1981 49ers super bowl team didn't have Roger Craig or Jerry Rice. The talent level on offense in 1981 is weak compare to the other 3 super bowl teams that Montana was on. Freddie Solomon was a good wide receiver, but wasn't even close to Jerry Rice and the same thing is true with Dwight Clark. The 1981 49ers on offense did enough to have a balanced offense, but the running game was pretty bad with a 3.5 yards per carry as a team. While the 49ers had over 1,900 yards rushing, 18 teams had more. The fact is the 49ers had the 6th most rushing attempts in the league, but was only 19th best of the league is rushing speaks on the talent of 49ers from a rushing standpoint. It also show Bill only rushed the ball that much as a way to make the defenses honest with Montana as a Quarterback. 2884. David posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just wanted to make the point that Gordon is no longer a road course expert." Sorry to have to disagree with you, but you are way off on this. He is a yearly contender at Sonoma. He had one of the cars to beat last year before he ran out of gas. "He has not scored a top-5 at the glen since 01." And? He has comically bad luck there. Besides, that's only half the battle. 2885. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I didn't mean that all of Montana's teams were the most talented in the NFL, but they exhibited the fact that football is a TEAM sport all four years they won the Super Bowl. I think their '83, '87, and '90 teams were more talented than their '81 Super Bowl team, but they weren't better teams because they allowed themselves to be beaten in the playoffs, given the great talents on those respective teams. They had no business losing to the Vikings in '87, and while the '83 Redskins and '90 Giants were great teams in their own right, had the 49ers been as good as a collective unit as their four Super Bowl seasons, they would have won those games and maybe added another Super Bowl victory or two to their resumes. cjs, while Dale had fewer chances to win the Brickyard 400 than Jeff did, he also had more chances to win the Daytona 500 than Jeff did, and it took him until his 20th full-time season before he finally won the thing. And by the time he won it, Jeff was in just his sixth full-time season, had already won the Daytona 500 one year earlier, and was a 2-time champion. Dale had fewer opportunities to win the Brickyard than Jeff, I agree with that, but Jeff had fewer chances to win the Daytona 500 and he managed to win the race three times seven years quicker than it took Dale to win it once. 2886. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon was on his way to winning at Watkins Glen in '07 before he spun out with two laps to go. And he might have had a shot at winning it in '03 had Biffle not spun him out in the first corner of the race, and he would have had a top five had Harvick been smart enough to know that the best way to pass a car that's out of gas is to go around him like Junior and Jimmie did on the final lap, not run straight through him and spin him around. 2887. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, and the NFL MVP trophy is a "piece of hardware". Manning has 4, Joe has two (Steve Young also has two and Favre has THREE). So are they all better than Joe? Of course not. When I say "hardware" I mean "championships". Besides, Jeff has 87 race win trophies, 5 qualifying race trophies, 3 Clash/Shootout trophies, 3 All Star trophies, and 4 championship trophies for a total of 102 pieces of hardware. Dale has 76 race win trophies, 12 qualifying race trophies, 6 Clash/Shootout trophies, 3 All Star trophies, and 7 championship trophies for a total of 104 pieces of hardware. 2888. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really, Eric? If I remember right, that 1981 49ers team had the NFL's best record at 13-3, which included a 45-14 thrashing of Dallas, and won every game but one after the third week of the season. The weakest team of the Walsh-Montana era that won the Super Bowl was the 1988 team that went 10-6 and lost three consecutive games to mediocre teams (Denver, Phoenix, and the Raiders). And Paul, it was not Dale's fault that he had shoddy pit calls that took him out of contention no fewer than three times in his first nine attempts in the Daytona 500, including one in 1987 that took him out of the lead, and it wasn't his fault that he ran over a piece of bellhousing on the backstretch on the final lap that cost him the 1990 race. Dale should have won the 1987 and 1990 Daytona 500s, and he might have won the 1986 race if not for a dry gas tank. If any winner of the Daytona 500 could ever be considered unlucky, Dale, Sr. would be the one. And here's a stat that might gives fans chills as the 2013 NASCAR season is about to begin. There are only 45 entries for this year's Daytona 500, which ties the record for the fewest in race history. The only other time the Daytona 500 entry list was so shallow was in 2004, incidentally the last time there was no exemption rule. In other words, the qualifying races might only be for starting position, because we knew before the qualifying races were even run in 2004 who would be in the Daytona 500, and the same might be true this year. And I hate to say it, but we might see the first start-and-park(s) in the Daytona 500 since 1972 this year with so few entires. By the way, the record for the most entries in Daytona 500 history was 77 back in 1960. 2889. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never said his Daytona 500 losses were his fault, but some people only care about the numbers, such as championships and non-points victories, so I didn't find it necessary to mention that Dale could have won more Daytona 500s had he had better luck. 2890. murb posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2000 Daytona 500 was incredibly bad!!! I agree with what Daniel said on 2851. The only fun part about that race was pulling for Johnny Benson to win it at the end. He was leading up until about ten laps to go when he got steamrolled by a bunch of the Fords. But yeah, other than that, it was GROSS. 1998 was very dull as well, other than Earnhardt's triumph, of course. The first Daytona 500 that I can remember that completely blew my mind was 1999. The racing wasn't as good as later years like 2001 or 2007, but it was still a lot better than 1998 and 2000. And as a four year old, the drama at the end overwhelmed me. The battle between Jeff and Dale (with Jeff almost killing himself by almost plowing into the slow car of Ricky Rudd on the apron) was just epic. That race was definitely one of the races that stick out to me from my early childhood. Some of my other personal favorite Daytona 500s include 2001 (for the racing only, obviously), 2002 (MADNESS!!!), 2005 (yet another epic battle for the win), 2007 (the whole thing was great), and 2010 (aside from Potholegate, the race was great and the battle for the win was great). My least favorite Daytona 500s? 2012 (total disaster), 2009 (total disaster), 2006 (really dull, other than Tony having a hypocritical meltdown over Matt Kenseth), 2000 (as previously stated). 2891. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 2002 Daytona 500 will always stand out in my mind because it was the first race I watched from start to finish. For a race that was fairly spread out and didn't have very many lead changes, there was A LOT of action taking place on the track. With a race that crazy, especially towards the end, it was only fitting that the top three finishers were Ward Burton, Elliott Sadler, and Geoff Bodine. "with Jeff almost killing himself by almost plowing into the slow car of Ricky Rudd on the apron" That was Rusty's fault. Jeff outgunned him in the closing stages and was almost forced into the grass and into Ricky Rudd's limping machine by Rusty, who thankfully allowed Jeff to get back up onto the race track. "2010 (aside from Potholegate, the race was great and the battle for the win was great)." Except by the call from Fox. I thought D.W. was gonna have a heart attack by how much he was rooting for Junior in the final two laps. That man has no integrity as a member of the NASCAR media by his biased commentary in support of Junior. I understand that he and Dale were friends and everything, but a little journalistic integrity would be nice every now and then. "really dull, other than Tony having a hypocritical meltdown over Matt Kenseth" Stewart being a hypocrite? I find that hard to believe. I mean, he is the same guy who threw a horrible block on Robby Gordon in the 2011 Daytona 500, which backed the field up and caused Newman and Junior to crash and bring out the final caution, then intentionally wrecked Brian Vickers at Sonoma for "blocking him," even though Vickers only moved in front of him to allow Kyle Busch to get back on the track, and then threw an even worse block on Michael Waltrip at Talladega that caused a 25-car crash in the final turn of the race. So yeah, I don't understand why we label Tony Stewart as being a hypocrite. Hmmm... 2892. Baker posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Mandatory concussion testing in Nascar? I see the good, but I also see this as a tool for Nascar to further dictate who ends up in the Championship circle. Jimmie Johnson would be cleared with slight to moderate symptoms while Brad Keseloski is benched for a week with the hint of anything being a little off. Points lead getting to big to keep the ratings up? Points lead suddenly has a concussion after his next brush with the wall. Yeah for the WWF! 2893. cjs3872 posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well murb, the 2005 Daytona 500 did feature a great battle for the win among many of the to stars of the spot. In fact, it might have eve been the Daytona 500's answer to the 1986 Masters, because the sport's best were battling for the win, yet in each case, the event was won by the best clutch performer that resective sport had to offer. In the case of the 1986 Masters, there was Seve Ballesteros, Tom Watson, Tom Kite, and Greg Norman battling for he win, but when it was all over, it was the greatest golfer ever, Jack Nicklaus overtaking all of them and winning his final PGA Tour event, much less doing so in a major championship. In the case ofthe 2005 Daytona 500, those battling for the win included Tony Stewart, Dale Earnhardt, Jr., Kurt Busch, Jimmie Johnson, Rusty Wallace, and Mark Martin, but when it was over, the best NASCAR has to offer, especially in big events, Jeff Gordon, found a way to outmaneuver all of them to win his third Daytona 500 and 17th crown jewel victory. And you mention about terrible Daytona 500s, certainly the 2012 race was forgettable, in a way becoming the Daytona 500's answer to the 1973 Indianapolis 500, but without the tragedies, 2009 wasn't very good, which ca also be said about the races from 1995-2007 with three exceptions (1996, 2001, and 2006, whichI actually think was a pretty good race, when they were racing), but there have been some other really bad ones. For instance, the races from 1989-'92 were all pretty dreadful, and the 1972 and 1985 races were misreable to watch. But my vote for the greatest Daytona 500 of all-time goes to the 1984 race, which oddly enough is never mentioned as a great race by many of the fans and media members, but I think when all factors are involved, the 1984 Daytona 500 was the best ever, because of the caliber of competition, the quality of racing, and the fact there were no serious crashes during that race. And an exclamation point wasput on that race by the fact that all but one of the top six positions changed hands on the final lap. Only Neil Bonnett, who was fourth, stayed in the same position that entire final lap. And there are some astounding numbers regarding the top six finishers, Cale Yarborough, Dale Earnhardt, Darrell Waltrip, Bonnett, Bill Elliott, and Harry Gant. 2894. Paul posted: 02.14.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR just doesn't have the credibility for people to take it seriously these days. If they had begun to test for concussions 15 years ago, I'd be more inclined to believe them when a driver passes/fails a concussion test. But just because of their shadiness history over the past decade under the Brian France administration, I'm a bit skeptical as to whether or not the concussion was legitimate. I'm glad they didn't start this program last year though, because I'd be willing to bet that they would have cleared Dale Earnhardt, Jr. for those two races that he missed had they been running a mandatory concussion test in 2012. With all the money that he brings to the table every week, whether it be in sponsorship, merchandise, ticket sales, or TV ratings, I wouldn't put it past them to keep him on the race track. I know George Halas did that with his star player Dick Butkus back in the late '60s/early '70s. Butkus was one of the very few stars on an otherwise dismal team, and Halas kept him playing and wouldn't let Butkus get a second opinion from a non-team doctor when he was hurt, even though his knees were in bad need of surgery, because Butkus equaled ticket sales. I think it's far better to have third party doctors decide whether an athlete is healthy enough to play than to have the league/team itself determine that, because there's a chance that the league/team will make its decision based on what's in the best interest of themselves, rather than the injured athlete. I applaud Junior for seeking out a 3rd party to diagnose his head injury, and I think it's in the best interest of every driver to do the same thing. 2895. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.14.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The weakest team of the Walsh-Montana era that won the Super Bowl was the 1988 team that went 10-6 and lost three consecutive games to mediocre teams (Denver, Phoenix, and the Raiders)." The deal there is they got hot at the end of the season and rode that momentum all the way to their most dramatic Super Bowl win. I guess that depends what is defined as "weak" or "strong". The '84 Niners had the best numbers with a 15-1 regular season and 3 playoff blowouts including Joe Cool reminding everyone at the Super Bowl that Dan Marino was a lot of things, but he was not Joe Montana. But holy cow, that 1989 Niners team was friggin stacked. They went 14-2, but reduced their playoff opponents into steamrolled pile of shit. They won their first 3 games of the season which were all road games, the third of which was Joe Montana's epic 4th quarter undressing of Buddy Ryan's Eagles (4 TDs, 257 yards) after getting pounded for 3 quarters in what was supposed to be the "Changing Of The Guard Game" as the Eagles were thought to be taking the flag from the Niners as the new dominant team (didn't happen). I guess the 1984 team was a better all around team. They didn't have Jerry Rice yet, but they had Roger Craig and Dwight Clark on offense, and a really good defense led by Ronnie "I Am Going To Knock The Shit Out Of You" Lott. But damn, that '89 offense! In the Super Bowl they had 27 points (cause of a botched extra point) before the cheese dip was even ready at most Super Bowl parties. Montana didn't even play in the 4th quarter they had it locked up so early. They sent Steve Young out there while Joe relaxed and took in the feeling of accomplishment. 2896. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2013 - 12:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, the turning point for the 49ers in 1988 was that MNF game against the Redskins when John Taylor returned that punt for a TD. That's when the '88 49ers took off, because they were 7-4 going into that game. and that 1984 not only had Roger Craig and Dwight Clark, but it also had Wendell Tyler (why did the Rams ever mke trade with the 49ers, a division rival?) and Russ Francis on offense, and not only had Jack Reynolds and Ronnie Lott, but also had three quarters of the 1980 Chargers defensive line, Fred Dean, Gary Johnson, and Louie Kelcher (who was a reserve). In fact, Dean and Johnson ran stuff they ran with the Chargers that the other NFC teams never saw coming. And there's no doubt that the 1984 team was the greatest 49er team, because of the defense. And of course, that 1989 49er team was so dominant that it allowed Steve Young to get in the game in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XXIV, something that gave him valuable Super Bowl experience for when he led them to the Super Bowl himself five years later. Because he had that experience, he didn't make the critical mistakes that QBs with heavily favored teams, or QBs under mental stress often make because he had played in a previous Super Bowl. By the way, that game ended when John Elway threw his very first pass (which was a one-hopper). Everyone watching knew at that instant what the outcome would be. But yet, if not for the two 90+ yard passes to John Taylor in Los Angeles late in the regular season, the 49ers may not have even been in that Super Bowl, and the Rams might have been, because they were the second-best team that year. 2897. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) People forget that the Niners and Rams had quite a rivalry back in the day. First off you have the LA vs San Fran thing (though not nearly as ugly as baseball's Dodgers Giants rivalry). And they had a damn good team, they just couldn't get over the 49ers hump. 2898. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.15.2013 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) CJS, You are right and I stand corrected, Bill Elliott's 1987 Speedweeks was the best of all time. In my lifetime, born in April 1987 on the date Martin Luther King was assassinated and (President's Day Monday!) William Henry Harrison died in office, Jarrett's 2000 Speedweeks was tops. "the Eagles were thought to be taking the flag from the Niners as the new dominant team (didn't happen)." Thank god that didn't happen, its quite possible Jimmy Johnson wouldn't have come to Dallas and the Buffalo Bills, well you know three SB loses in a row without a Lombardi trophy. 2899. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 1:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The city of Los Angeles deserves a pro football team. I couldn't imagine what the sports fans in that city were feeling when they went from two sports teams (Rams and Raiders) in '94, to having none in '95 when the Raiders went back to Oakland and the Rams moved from the west to the "Gateway to the West". I know that the Raiders wanted to stay in Los Angeles, but Al Davis wanted a new stadium and the city never agreed to build a new one (although there are some reports that L.A. agreed to build a new stadium, but Davis changed his mind). I think the L.A. riots that occurred just a few years earlier contributed to both teams wanting out, especially since that only worsened their already low attendance numbers due to the fact that neither team was consistently winning (the Raiders were struggling to make it out of the first round of the playoffs, while the Rams had five straight seasons with six wins or less following their 30-3 defeat to the 49ers in '89). I know a few Raiders players like Todd Christensen and Marcus Allen admitted to not bringing their families to games because of the thuggish environment already there, and the fact that the city was rioting and on fire for about a week couldn't have made it any better. The city is fortunate to have two historically great college football programs in USC and UCLA (the latter being my 3rd favorite college football team after Notre Dame and Oklahoma), but for a city that huge, having two college football teams isn't enough. I know that the Raiders have had issues with the city of Oakland lately with how bad the city is suffering economically, and the Chargers of course aren't too far away from L.A. in San Diego and might benefit by being in a sports town like L.A. Plus there's that rumor that a team like the Jaguars, Bills, or Vikings might move out to L.A., but those seem unlikely at this point. I don't know if there have been any talks between the city and the NFL about a new team moving there (of course a new stadium would probably have to be built), but hopefully there is because the 2nd biggest market in the U.S. deserves a pro football team. 2900. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 1:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As someone who has rooted for the Cowboys for many years (though not as much as I used to anymore), I've always hated the Eagles with a passion. They are the most despicable team in the league with the worst sports fans in the country. I'll never forgive them for the way they cheered when Michael Irvin broke his neck and ended his career on their rotten Veterans Stadium field, I'm disgusted by the fact that they care more about injuring their opponents (Bounty Bowl, Bounty Bowl II, Bodybag Game) than they do about winnign championships, and I laugh at the fact that they booed Donovan McNabb when they drafted him in 1999 (who turned out to be the best quarterback in that draft class, and one of the best players as well). They love their players when they do well, and they hate them when they have bad games. That being said, do I want them to change? No, absolutely not. The NFL needs its bad guys, the teams that the rest of us hate. It's not enough to just have the Patriots, we need the Eagles as well. I think every football fan in their heart of hearts pulls for either the Cowboys, Giants, or Redskins just so the Eagles won't win their division and might miss the playoffs, just like how every football fan pulls for either the Bills, Dolphins, or Jets just so the Patriots aren't No. 1 either. I'll never understand how a team with as much class as they do titles in the last 52 years is constantly being glorified in the media as being "Super Bowl contenders," but I guess when you have the most disgusting fans in sports despite being glorified losers in all four major sports, it really doesn't matter how good you really are. I look forward to seeing Chip Kelly fail this year as he can't get his overpaid players motivated enough to play up to their salaries, and shove it in the Eagles fans' faces that they were lucky to have a great coach like Andy Reid, and now they to find a new patsy for them to take their frustrations out on. 2901. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 2:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also hate the fans of Philadelphia. The way they shit all over Donovan McNabb for his entire career is a shame. Yes he choked in big moments (literally), but he was a class act and somebody who took them further than they probably should have some years. And the way they failed to appreciate sporting treasure Mike Schmidt is the biggest shame of all. I also relish in watching their teams fail. Needless to say the 2003 NFC Championship game is the highlight of my life as a Panther fan (with the last two years being the lowlight, 2001 wasn't as bad as having Newton). That is 3 in a row Philly. Not even Steve Young ever lost 3 NFC title games in a row. And that is saying something. And oh yeah, Veteran's Stadium was a damn dump. A garbage hole fitting for the garbage they have for fans. 2902. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.15.2013 - 7:15 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) You Know those Philadelphia Fans Booed Santa Claus and then pelted him with snowballs. They also cheered when Michael Irvan suffered his career ending injury there. 2903. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2013 - 9:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I go back to the fact that they can't build a stadium in Los Angeles for the same reason they can't build one in San Diego, because the Chargers have wanted a new stadium for years, and that is the fact that enviromentalists and activists simply won't allow one to be built. That's why it took about two more years to build PetCo Park in San Diego than planned, and even that was nearly blocked. They've had the same problem in Los Angeles, as no stadium has been built in the Los Angeles area since Anaheim Stadium was built in the mid 60s. Now there have been arenas built in the L.A. area since then (the Staples Center near downtown L.A. and the Pond in Anaheim), but no stadiums have been buit since then. Also, there has always been fan apathy for the NFL in Los Angeles. I've always said the two sports teams that have captred the spirit of Southern California have been the Lakers and the San Diego Chargers when they've had a high-powered offense, because that captures the free-wheeling stye typical of Southern California. The Clippers now have that same kind of team, but nobody likes or trusts them because of their owner. You also forget another reason the Rams left for the midwest. In January of 1994, there was an earthquake on the day that Martin Luther King's birthday was supposed to be celebrated, and even though that earthquake was centered in the northern part of the L.A. area, it did over $7,000,000 damage to Anaheim Stadium, mostly in the seating. In fact, the stadium was completely redone after the Rams left. That, combined with the fan apathy over losing, was the final straw that caused them to leave. I think the earthquake problem may be another reason for the problems of building a new stadium in the Los Angeles area. That's not as big a problem in San Diego because they ever get major earthquakes there. 2904. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 10:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Today is the 15th anniversary of Dale Earnhardt's 1998 Daytona 500 victory, arguably the most famous victory in NASCAR history. To commemorate this anniversary, ESPN Classic is showing various clips of his career throughout the day (which you can check out from post #2845). Right now they're showing his addition of SportsCentury, and there were two quotes that stand out in my mind. One was some guy saying that Dale Earnhardt preferred to be the bad guy at the race track, saying that "When they boo me on Sunday, I go to the bank on Monday." Love it! Another one was from former crew chief Larry McReynolds, who described Dale as a puppy. If a puppy pees on the floor and you yell at it about it, that puppy likely won't pee on the floor again; but if the puppy pees on the floor again and again for about a week before you yell at it or hit it with the newspaper, it will look at you with a blank face as if to say "Dude, why are you hitting me?" It sounds corny, but I think that puppy comparison is a good description as to why Dale was how he was. Perhaps it's for the best that he wasn't yelled at the first time he pissed on the floor (metaphorically speaking, of course). Does anyone else think that Rick Mast was blocking for Dale once he got lapped on the final green flag lap of the '98 Daytona 500? That's how it always looked like to me because once Dale passed him, Mast sort of blended in behind him, instead of letting Labonte and Mayfield pass him. I think more drivers today should look at the way that Dale handled losing the 1990 Daytona 500 and use that as an example as to how you handle a heartbreaking defeat. That loss is about as tough a loss as you can have in racing (dominate the entire weekend, lead over 3/4 of the race, have the race locked up, suffer a flat tire by running over someone else's mess, get beat by Dope Cop; I swear that Ned Jarrett called him "Dope Cope" the second he passed Dale for the win), and rather than storm off and refuse an interview or act speak sarcastically in his interview, he simply got out of the car, wiped the tears away, took five minutes to cool down, and then gave a polite interview afterwards. He had every right to walk away without speaking to anyone, but he didn't because he had too much respect for the race fans who wanted to hear what he had to say after three hours of racing, as well as the reporters who were just doing their jobs and trying to get his reaction to the end result. He didn't have to do it, and he did. Class act. And how about his reaction after losing the '95 Daytona 500 (I believe it was that race) when he was all smiles and jokingly said "I've never won the Daytona 500. I'm not going to Disney World either." The man just lost the biggest race of the year and he was smiling afterwards. One of my favorite parts was after Dale Earnhardt, Jr. won a Busch race in '98 or '99, Dale went up to him gave him a hug, congratulated him, told him he loved him, and then said "Find your own way home." HAHAHA! Nothing like a little tough love from your dad to keep your ego in check after winning a race. For my own selfish reasons, as I'm sure a lot of other people feel as well, I wish Dale was still here. But he once said that he would rather die in his race car than die while driving his truck to go get a haircut, and that he would rather die young and great than old and forgotten. So if his death was good enough for him, then by God it was good enough for me, and I'd like to think he's in a better place now and doesn't really care to return to this planet anyways. 2905. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 11:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Qualifying for the ARCA race at Daytona will take place at 2:00 PM ET today, and there are 44 drivers on the entry list (just one less than the Daytona 500 entry list). Here are some notables on that will be attempting the race: #06 - Dexter Stacey #09 - Grant Enfinger #4 - Kyle Larson #5 - Bobby Gerhart (last year's winner) #6 - Caleb Armstrong (Dakoda's brother) #15 - John Wes Townley (fastest in practice) #17 - Chris Buescher (2012 champion) #19 - Donnie Neuenberger #23 - Spencer Gallagher #35 - Milka Duno #44 - Frank Kimmel #48 - James Hylton #52 - Chad Boat (Billy's son) #55 - Darrell Wallace, Jr. #77 - Tom Hessert #82 - Sean Corr #92 - Brennan Newberry Larson, Wallace, and Stacey each have to make one restrictor plate start before NASCAR allows them to race next weekend for the Nationwide/Truck Series races at Daytona, so they are basically in this race just to get their NASCAR restrictor plate license, with experience gained and having a shot at a win being secondary. 2906. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2013 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, if Ned Jarrett said"Dope Cope" when Earnhardt had his flat tire on the final lap of the 1990 Daytona 500, it would have been because he was as surprised as anyone else that anything could and would go wrong with Earnhardt on that day. The irony of that flat tire was that with about 20 laps to go, they interviewed Harold Elliott (no relation to Bill's family), the engine builder for Rusty Wallace for that race, and the interviewer asked him if anyone could beat Earnhardt, and Elliott said "only if they shoot his tires out", which made the finish of that race an even sadder irony. And another thing about that finish is that Terry Labonte has been asked about his most bitter disappointment in never winning the Daytona 500, and his response was not his disappointments in 1984, '86, '94, '96, or '97. His biggest regret, as far as never winning the Daytona 500 goes, was the 1990 race because at the start of the final lap, he tried to pass Cope with help from Bill Elliott, and they didn't have the "oomph" to do it. If they had, Labonte, as it turned out, would have won the race, and he still probably would have if the race had run one more lap because Cope's windshield was broken by the bellhousing Earnhardt ran over, and Cope probably would not have been able to go one more lap at speed, which would have handed the race to Labonte. 2907. 83andJoe posted: 02.15.2013 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile, in ARCA practice, the world has been turned upside down. 1. John Wes Townley 2. Milka Duno 2908. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At about this exact moment 15 years ago, all seemed right with the world. Years and years of anticipation paid off in ways even I never imagined. That smile in victory lane? Priceless. 2909. Scott B posted: 02.15.2013 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That 45 car entry list for the Daytona 500 isn't a good sign. Expect a lot of races this season where 43 show up, and 43 get in. It could even get to the point where some start & park teams' backup car is going to be renumbered as a separate entry to create a full field. 2910. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Scott B, that was my point in the previous post I had on this topic. In fact, the 45 cars on the entry list ties the record for the fewest in Daytona 500 history, a record first set in 2004. (The previous record had been 46 for a 50-car feld in 1964.) That means that the qualifying races could be for nothing more than startng position, because we may actually know who will be in the Daytona 500 beford the qualifying races were even run, as was the case in 2004. And I also brought up the possibility of the first Daytona 500 start-and-parks since 1972, because it pays about $250,000 just to start the race, and really it doesn't pay that much more to finish tenth. In oher words, the qualifying races could really be melancholy this year because there would be no reason to risk a car if you know you're already in the field, and we will probably see some of these teams do start-and-parks in the qualifying races for that very reason. 2911. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I remember three cars that did start-and-park in the Duel races last year. Terry Labonte had the past champion's provisional and was guaranteed a spot in the field, and the same went for Tony Raines and David Stremme, who made the field based on their qualifying speeds. Since all three of them were driving for small teams, they had no incentive to run the full Duel race because they were already in the show. I would expect to see the same thing happen this year among the smaller teams that have already locked themselves into the field, either by owner points, the PCP, or qualifying speeds. Also, in football news, the Minnesota Vikings will be returning outdoors in 2014 as their lease on the Metrodome is up after this upcoming season. They will play two seasons at TCF Bank Stadium, where the Gophers play, before moving into their new stadium in 2016. This will be the first time since 1981 that the Vikings will host games outdoors, and considering how they made four Super Bowls while playing outdoors and none since moving into the dome, myself and many other Vikings fans welcome the cold. 2912. David posted: 02.15.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 37 years ago, on this afternoon, two legends battled on the final lap of the Daytona 500. They crashed, and one of them limped across the finish line to win the biggest race of his career. Mike Joy referred to Matt Kenseth as "Logano" four times before Larry McReynolds corrected him. That has to be the lowest blow to a driver of Kenseth's status, being confused with Joey Logano. Mike Joy should know better. 2913. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Mike Joy apologized for Kenseth's language. I rewatched his interview again and didn't hear anything. What did I miss? 2914. David posted: 02.15.2013 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never in its history has the...cough...Sprint Unlimited...cough...been run on February 15th. 2915. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In his interview, Kenseth said "F*** it." I missed that part of the interview the first time, but I just re-watched it and I was a bit surprised that the soft-spoke Kenseth used that kind of language just because it's not really his style. I guess he's human after all haha. 2916. cjs3872 posted: 02.15.2013 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Obviously, that had to do with the change in cars, David. And I can almost guarantee that won't be the only time the commentators get confused as far as what driver is in what car, as that is an annual problem at SpeedWeeks, especially considering that one of the drivers was in the same car for so long. Also, the Sprint Unlimted, as it's now known, will be run on the 16th, not the 15th. However, if it's run next year, and the schedule remains the same, it will be run on the 15th next year. Until last year, the latest it had been run was the 13th, since the Daytona 500 had not been scheduled to run later than February 20 since 1970 until last year. 2917. Baker posted: 02.15.2013 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone think Kenseth gets a points penalty for dropping the F bomb on TV? If NASCAR wants to be consitant then they should, but this is NASCAR and the rules change with each driver. Tony Stewart would be starting out the season in a 25 point hole. It would be swept under the rug if it were Jimmie Johnson. Where does Kenseth fit in NASCAR's rule book? 2918. Paul posted: 02.15.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior was once penalized 25 points for saying "shit" in victory lane after winning the 2004 fall Talladega race. The fact that he was penalized suggests that any driver could be penalized, but who the hell really knows what constitutes a fine or penalty these days. 2919. David posted: 02.15.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, the Sprint Unlimited, as it's now known, will be run on the 16th, not the 15th." I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear in my previous post. I was just was remarking how odd that the race had never been run on the 15th, but I see your point. "Obviously, that had to do with the change in cars, David. And I can almost guarantee that won't be the only time the commentators get confused as far as what driver is in what car, as that is an annual problem at SpeedWeeks, especially considering that one of the drivers was in the same car for so long." True. But I'm surprised that it took him repeating the same mistake three times for the other announcers to correct him. I'm just saying, at least one of them should have known sooner. But then again, I'm not a commentator. 2920. jabber1990 posted: 02.15.2013 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I heard a rumor that there was a crash in practice, 8 laps in practice another crash so testing...half the field wiped out, practice, crash so thats 2 crashes and the season hasn't started yet, they are going into the unlimited with no practice, they are probably going to kill each other in the race 2921. Daniel posted: 02.15.2013 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yep, 5 car one. Kenseth cut down on Kurt Busch and Edwards, Martin, and Montoya were also collected. Busch, Edwards, and Martin are heading to backup cars. 2922. JG24FanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Fun debate,dude's. I'm gonna end my side with a "Precious Hardware" comparison between the all-time best. The "Precious Hardware" I speak of are as follows: Championship Southern 500 Daytona 500 World 600 Bristol Night Firecracker 400 Brickyard 400 Spring Talldega 500 Road-Race wins(The difficulty level of getting just one,like Big E. and JJ, constitutes including this stat.) Jeff Gordon has 33 total Richard Petty has 27 total Dale Earnhardt has 25 total Darrell Waltrip has 24 total Bobby Allison has 23 total Cale Yarborough has 23 total David Pearson has 22 total Jimmie Johnson has 18 total Well there you have it. I don't care what people think anymore. I'll openly admit from now on,that I believe Gordon to be the greatest ever. 2923. JG24FanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anybody see the Meteor footage from Russia? 2924. JG24FanForever posted: 02.15.2013 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since Gordon no longer drives the Dupont car. I want to make a list of my favorite Dupont cars over 20 seasons. Top 7 1. Chromalusion: This is my all-time favorite race car. 2. 1995 Monte Carlo 3. 1998 Monte Carlo 4. Chroma Premiere: He Drove this car in the 1997 Busch Clash. Also known as "The Storm" since his other car was a Rainbow. 5. 2006 Monte Carlo: Loved this body style. 6. 1994 Lumina: Won the biggest race ever in this car. 7. 1999 No Bull Monte Carlo: Beat Big E for the win in what Bill Jenkins said: "one of the greatest Daytona 500's of all-time". Farewell,Rainbow car. 2925. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.16.2013 - 5:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Man looks in mirror; sees other man. Starts having a great conversation with himself. 2926. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_RknL9G-Q 2927. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On Twitter, Matt is denying cussing. I watched the interview on YouTube and it is inconclusive to me. It kinda sounds like "f*** it" but it kinda doesn't. Of course I am a Southerner and he has that Wisconsin accent and talks 1,000,000 miles per hour, so I could easily be hearing something else when he cusses. I guess I just look at Matt as somebody who always mans up when he messes up, so I'll take his word for it. 2928. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd not believe what he says unless he actually goes back and watches the interview and says what it sounds like to him. 2929. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looking forward to the Shootou.. the Unlimited tonight!!! After what I've seen so far, I think the Toyotas look strong. So I think I'll go with one of the JGR or MWR cars to win it. 2930. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 11:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul Menard is currently 0th in 500 practice according to Speed. 2931. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 02.16.2013 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I feel like it, I guess it was my fault." I'm not a huge Matt fan, but he has gained a lot of respect from me, so I'll believe him. 2932. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.16.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Speaking of Apologies oldschoolnascardude1 I owe you one for lashing out at you on youtube a few months ago. 2933. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 02.16.2013 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's no big deal, Benjamin Lowe. 2934. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, I have to work tonight, so I am going to need updates from you guys...... on Brad's commentary. I already know how the race is gonna go, the Gibbs cars are gonna dominate. So I need to know how Brad does. 2935. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know what you guys are hearing. Matt clearly said "f*** it" in his interview. Being from Minnesota, I have a similar accent to Matt and I know a "f*** it" when I hear one. Rick Ware Racing has announced that Juan Carlos Blum will drive the #15 Nationwide car for the full season this year, with Donnie Neuenberger driving the #41 car at Daytona and possibly some more races this season. Also, Dusty Davis will drive the #1 truck for RWR at Daytona, and could make some more starts pending sponsorship. David Starr will drive the #81 truck for SS-Green Light Racing in 2013. He drove for them in 2011, before switching teams in last year. His number and sponsor will remain the same, but this will basically be the #08 team from last year that Ross Chastain drove for. Last year's Daytona Truck winner John King will drive the #33 truck for Eddie Sharp Racing, trying to defend his crown at Daytona. 2936. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 2:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, would it be believable if I wrote down that Roger Penske called Brad down from the broadcast booth before the final segment to replace Joey Logano in the #22 car because "He needed a driver who knew how to win"? 2937. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The best part about Brad commentating tonight is that it will take away from Michael's typical "me" routine that he pulls every week. Can someone please remind me why active owners are allowed to broadcast? Also, we've got the Arca race in a little while. I'm predicting about two flips in that race, along with another big one where the backmarker cars don't even attempt to slow down as they are coming up to the wreck. Oh yeah, and Bobby Gerhart will win just like he always does at Daytona. 2938. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know if ARCA has a Hall of Fame, but if NASCAR were to ever induct ARCA drivers into their Hall of Fame, Bobby Gerhart definitely has to go in. He has eight victories in the Daytona 200 in ARCA. Considering how a win at Daytona is arguably as valuable as the championship (though not as much now as it used to be), that would make him an 8-time champion in some respects, which is definitely HOF-worthy. 2939. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OldSchoolNascarDude1, I'm not sure you're aware of it, but ESPN Classic plans to air some old Daytona 500 races next week they've never aired before, including two from whe ABC aired the race, 1973 and 1978. They also plan to air the 1983 race. I only hope they air at least some of what happened from laps 70-110, which was the segment of the race that was edited out of the NASCAR Classics version done by SPEED 11 yars ago. After all, when they aired the 1989 Daytona 500 last year, they aired the entire part of the race that SPEED edited out, including the huge lap 72 crash. I also plan to upload some more of the old Daytona and Indianapolis 500s on my channel in the future. I may also bring back the 1984 and 1985 Daytona 500s I had previously uploaded on my original channel. But that's down the line. Of course, I currently have the 1973 Indinapolis 500 on my channel (including qualifying and pre-race coverage from SpeedVision's "Indy 500: The Classics" series), and hope to do more in the future. 2940. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 02.16.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the heads up, CJS, I'll be sure to check those races out. 2941. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Milka Duno led the first lap of the Arca race. In other news, hell has completely frozen over. 2942. Jim Davis posted: 02.16.2013 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did she jump the start? It sure looked like she got to the start-finish line before Townley. 2943. Rexrobe posted: 02.16.2013 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well that was a cluster in the pits. 2944. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big wreck on the restart when Bubba Wallace got into the back of the #25 car. 2945. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol, 15 years and 1 day after "the iconic black #3 car" took its famous victory spin through the Daytona logo in the infield grass, there is, once again "the iconic black #3 car" going through that same grass and the same logo. Except it is after being collected in a huge crash on lap 20 of 80 all torn up. Please Richard please, shelf that particular #3, quit making a mockery of it. 2946. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Venturini Motorsports was the strongest team in practice, qualifying, and the early stages of this race, but now they've been greeted with bad luck. Bubba Wallace got into the back of Justin Boston on a restart due to an accordion effect ahead of them and caused a wreck, and a little bit ago Milka Duno had to go to the garage due to a transmission problem. She's back on the race track now, but is five laps down and out of contention. John Wes Townley is now their last hope at winning this race, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing due to his past experience in ARCA, Truck, and Nationwide, it sounds a little odd to utter those words. 2947. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Bobby Gerhart ran out of fuel with six laps to go. John Wes Townley to the lead. 2948. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3 cars on the lead lap?!?!?!?! 2949. cjs3872 posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not entirely sure they'll be on, OldSchoolNascarDude1, but now you know, should they be on. Jim McKay broadcasted both the 1973 and 1978 Daytoa 500s, and the 1973 race was the last one shown on Wide World of Sports. The 1974 race was the first one shown live, with the final 80 laps shown live with highlights of the start shown. In 1976, the start of the race was shown live, with ABC breaking away for Olympic coverage and showing the final hour of the race live, though they did give updates when time permitted, including one just after that horrible crash on lap 117 occurred. McKay retruned to do the Daytona 500 in 1977 and '78, and instead of the opening laps being shown in highlighted frm in 1978, the two dramatic crashes were shown, as was a minor four-car incident between Roger Hamby, Jimmy Lee Capps, Jerry Jolly, and Tighe Scott before live action was shown for the rest of the race. 2950. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This finish is gonna be a disaster. 2951. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damned timing and scoring errors... 2952. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Wes Townley: Winner at Daytona. 2953. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nevermind. Townley wins. Wait a minute... TOWNLEY WON???????? 2954. New14 & 88Fan posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What happened to Gerhart, one minute he was leading and the next he's sputtering around the apron of the track while JWT rides off into the sunset. 2955. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No victory lane celebration? What the hell kind of a joke is this? 2956. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel like everything I know is wrong lol. J/k, congrats to John Wes. 2957. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did John Wes Townley seriously win? 2958. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gerhart ran out of fuel coming out of turn 4 with about six laps to go. He came down pit road on the flat part of the race track, and the car regained power because the fuel got back into the fuel pickup, but about half a lap later his car lost power once again, so he just pulled off the track on the backstretch. Congrats to John Wes Townley. Just like when JFK was assassinated and the terrorist attacks on 9/11, we will all remember where we were when John Wes Townley won his first professional auto racing race, at Daytona nonetheless. 2959. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The starting lineup for the Sprint Unlimited will be set by the order of poles won in 2012. So since Carl Edwards won the first pole of 2012 at the Daytona 500, he'll be on the pole (actually he won't because he's going to a backup car). But anyway, that's the way they voted for the starting lineup. I have no idea what the other options were. 2960. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At approximately 6:12 P.M. EST on February 16th, 2013, pigs from farms all across the United States suddenly started to fly. No one, not even the leading zoologists knows the cause of this porcine phenomenon. 2961. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Apparently the fans that stacked the ballot box weren't aware that Junior won his first pole of 2012 in the 26th race, so he'll be starting from row 8 (technically row 7 because both front row starters have to go to the back). 2962. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I have no idea what the other options were." Total number of wins and 2012 driver points. 2963. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Do you realize this November will be the 50th anniversary of JFK being assassinated in Dallas by the government with multiple gunmen lone gunnman Lee Harvey Oswald 2964. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Total number of wins and 2012 driver points." All of them are stupid. "Random Draw" should have been one of the options. But this is the "Brainless" Brian France Administration, so we're supposed to flush traditions down the toilet, not continue them. 2965. 83andJoe posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >Please Richard please, shelf that particular #3, quit making a mockery of it. That was actually one of Wayne Hixson's cars, in this case. No excuse for Childress elsewhere, of course! 2966. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Do you realize this November will be the 50th anniversary of JFK being assassinated in Dallas by the government with multiple gunmen lone gunnman Lee Harvey Oswald" Yes, I do. 2967. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wayne Hixson normally fields variations of the #23, #28, #29, #21, and #7 (often times modifying one number to create another one and using it as a field filler), so I'm a little surprised that he fielded a #3 car, especially one that was styled similarly to Dale's #3. I'm kind of hoping that Austin Dillon drives the #3, because it will only strengthen Dale's legacy, and put in end to this "Austin Dillon is carrying on the #3's legacy" crap that we have to hear on a weekly basis. Right now, the #3 is the third winningest car number in Cup history with 97 wins, and I have faith in Austin that he won't be able to add to that total. Very overrated driver. 2968. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) wow! Danica Patrick is fastest in Daytona final practice! The driver introduction was stupid. 2969. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Very overrated driver." Agreed. I don't see him doing much in Cup either. I just think there are too many other better young guys who will be standing in his way (Keselowski, Blaney, Piquet, Buescher, potentially Stenhouse, Larson, and even his little brother Ty). 2970. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's go RACING!!!!! We're FINALLY here!!!! 2971. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What's even stupider than the group driver introductions is that Fox is still using the "NFL on Fox" intro song during NASCAR broadcasts. What was wrong with that other one they used to use? That one actually had a NASCAR feel to it. 2972. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul,it's because they have been trying to liken Nascar to NFL, to draw in the NFL's impossibly large fan base. Which has failed miserably since Brain France "took" office. 2973. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice to know they care so much about us NASCAR fans. If I want to watch the NFL, I'll watch the NFL. Until they realize that the sports fans that don't give a shit about NASCAR aren't going to watch, we're only going to continue having dirt kicked in our faces. 2974. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can already tell that D.W. won't shut up for this 90-lap race, so I'm listening to the radio now. 2975. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's so dumb how we have to find out what the rules are AS the race is going on. 2976. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, I just realized that Dick Berggren isn't there. He was Fox's best pit reporter, and I miss him already. 2977. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah man, Terry start and parked. 2978. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good to see the outside line is working. Last year it was almost impossible to pass the inside line, even in a tandem draft. 2979. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey lets replace the current announce team with Homer Simpson & Ned Flanders 2980. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Poles for Earnhardt driving the #2 in 1980: 0 Poles for Brad K. driving the #2 in 2012: 0 Wins for Earnhardt driving the #2 in 1980: 5 Poles for Brad K. driving the #2 in 2012: 5 Was the defending Champion absent from this event in 1981? 2981. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) We already have a Homer Simpson in the announce booth. He goes by the name "D.W." now. 2982. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can you imagine if NASCAR decided the fans got to vote on the pit stop formats for EVERY race, and not just non-points races like the Unlimited (I hate the gimmicky name, BTW)? Why is that I could see NASCAR doing that in the future... 2983. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Homer would make a much better announcer than DW could ever be...Hell, Peter Griffin might make a better announcer...okay, that might be pushing it. 2984. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can already tell that D.W. won't shut up for this 90-lap race, so I'm listening to the radio now." Thanks to the fact that we have only antenna channels, FOX is barely coming in, so I have to listen in. 2985. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We already have a Homer Simpson in the announce booth. He goes by the name "D.W." now." Don't insult Homer J. 2986. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt was not in the 1981 Busch Clash. Also, last year was Brad's second year in the #2, just like how 1980 was Dale's second year in the #2. I guess that if history continues to repeat itself, Brad will lose his ride, get picked up by RCR, and then HE will take over the #3 car. 2987. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If DW is Homer, then Michael is Krusty The Clown. 2988. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What do you know? Stewart throws another huge block!!! 2989. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) f**k! f**k! 2990. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here we go tearing up a bunch of cars again...I get the feeling Speedweeks is going to be REALLY ugly this year. 2991. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stewart should stop running these restrictor plate races before he kills somebody. 2992. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DADGUM!!! 2993. MK17/20FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm pullig for Matt Kenseth this year. 2994. MK17/20FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *pulling Matt K is ALREADY the #1 at this year. 2995. MK17/20FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Matt K is ALREADY the #1 at Gibbs this year. I'm pissed and my computer keeps screwing my post. 2996. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like that elimination option has been thrown out of the window now. 2997. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't think Gordon had terminal damage until I saw him getting out of the car. Huge kudos (first time using that word) to Truex and Montoya, missing that wreck like they did. 2998. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony's hypocrisy annoys the hell out of me. He gets on Reutimann for racing hard too early at Charlotte. What does he do here? Threads the needle for no reason 15 laps into the race. He gets on Vickers and several others for blocking. What does he do here? Throws another huge block for the second plate race in a row that takes out multiple cars. 2999. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12 cars left and we're not even through the first segment. If they do choose to eliminate people, I think all of us will go into Warrior mode, lol 3000. MK17/20FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Comment #3000? 3001. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope this isn't a repeat of the exausting and trying 2012 that Gordon had. 3002. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My dad just asked: "What the hell is Darrell talking about?" HaHaHa DW really doesn't shut up. 3003. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, you're not going to have to worry about that because the fans opted for no elimination. That doesn't mean we still won't end up with a single-digit number of cars left running at the end of this race, however... 3004. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone still awake? 3005. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not a lot to comment on when everyone is running single file... 3006. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race really sucked. 3007. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Worst. Unlimited. Ever. 3008. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, that finish fell flat. 3009. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Four Fords running 3rd through 6th, and only one of them made a move to the bottom on the last lap. Pathetic. 3010. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some of the dullest racing I've ever seen since the 2000 Daytona 500... Somehow, this year's 500 doesn't look that promising to me... 3011. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess Big E's RCR win% is gonna come down some this year;) 3012. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt Kenseth had the best car, but nobody would work with him in those final 10 laps. The outside line was the preferred line all night long, so expect to see it used a lot in the Duel races and the Daytona 500. Also, track position is key because there's really only one good line, so we might see some pit strategy next weekend. 3013. 18fan posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They waited too long to make a move. It was pretty pathetic that they didn't race until the last lap. And then Harvick broke his car celebrating. 3014. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't get why Biffle didn't dart low when he had all that momentum going into turn three. 3015. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The excitement of that finish was very limited. 3016. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The dullness of the race was unlimited. 3017. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't get why Biffle didn't dart low when he had all that momentum going into turn three." Because he would have pulled a Tony Stewart on Tony Stewart. 3018. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The hype of this race was unlimited... Seems the entire field has to re-learn the pre-tandem rules of RP racing this week, like make a move with two laps to go and side draft like heck to pass the leader. A prime example: It was very discouraging seeing Fords running 3rd through 6th at the white flag and only Logano pulled low to attempt a charge. In addition, blocking appears to have returned to Daytona with respect to breaking "air pockets" around the track. A vocal critic of blocking/side drafting, none other than Tony Stewart prior to the 2006 Daytona 500. This is what gets me, NASCAR institutes changes with the cooling system, drivers figure out the the bumpers align, and we get two car tandems that practically eliminate blocking at Daytona and Talladega... well, apparently after this race now with the Gen. 6 car we're back to blocking/side-drafting/"I wasn't cleared. while switching lanes" 3019. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Because he would have pulled a Tony Stewart on Tony Stewart." I guess, but at least Biffle would have been doing it for the win instead of doing it on lap 15. It's the same thing with Tony's block at Talladega. It was asinine after all the complaining he's done, but at least it was for the win, unlike his one tonight. I blame the majority of the mediocrity of this race on the lack of cars. If the big wreck hadn't happened that early and hadn't taken all those key players, it would have been much more interesting. Whatever. I just hope the 500 isn't this terrible. 3020. murb posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, this NBA Dunk Contest is almost as gimmicked up as the Unlimited. 3021. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why do I get the feeling that cjs is going to start saying "I told you so" soon? 3022. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In other conspiracy news: ESPN Networks might cut a deal with FOX Sports to air Danica's qualifying attempt in eager anticipation of "history" in this "historic" year of 2013: The Year of the Woman. What are the chances Danica Patrick wins the Pole for the Daytona 500 coming one day after Milka Duno leads the first 10 laps of the ARCA race, one in which John Wes Townley later won? 3023. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay Drivers you better not be doing this during the 500 or else HEADS WILL ROLL. 3024. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To be fair, the years that have produced some of the best Bud Shootouts produced some of the worst 500s. Too few cars ruined this race, the first segment was great but after that... Most boring Shootout/Clash (screw the name 'unlimited') since 2007, that race had NOTHING, at least this had a decent first segment. 3025. Jarrett88fan posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, Brad commentary was spot on and very insightful because it intellectually towered over the Waltrip brothers analysis and buffoonery. 3026. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, this reminded me of the 2006 fall Talladega race, great racing at the start until a big one which took out much of the good cars/team mates, then a terrible final single file 20 laps until a mistimed last lap move. 3027. David posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Well, this has been an extremely fun comment board. I can't even begin to name off how many discussions we had on here. But all good things must come to an end. 3028. Paul posted: 02.16.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that, TeamPlayersBlue, but this race, like the 2006 fall Talladega race, had a lot of single-file racing at the top of the track. And anyone who made a move to the inside, unless they had help, would immediately drop to the back of their group. I thought Brad was alright. I wasn't really listening to the TV during the race, but from what I heard he was alright. The Waltrips on the other hand...*shudder* 3029. Schroeder51 posted: 02.16.2013 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's commentary was pretty good and insightful, but then again, just about ANYONE's commentary would look good in comparison to Homer and Krusty...I mean Darrell and Michael Waltrip. 3030. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like I didn't miss much. 3031. JG24FanForever posted: 02.16.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You missed the unlimited boredom that everyone didn't enjoy. 3032. JG24FanForever posted: 02.17.2013 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My NEW Top 25 Greatest ever Cup drivers 1. Jeff Gordon 2. David Pearson 3. Dale Earnhardt 4. Richard Petty 5. Jimmie Johnson 6. Bobby Allison 7. Darrell Waltrip 8. Cale Yarborough 9. Tony Stewart 10. Herb Thomas 11. Tim Flock 12. Rusty Wallace 13. Mark Martin 14. Junior Johnson 15. Fireball Roberts 16. Ned Jarrett 17. Lee Petty 18. Bill Elliott 19. Buck Baker 20. Curtis Turner 21. Fred Lorenzen 22. Dale Jarrett 23. Joe Weatherly 24. Terry Labonte 25. Bobby Isaac 3033. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.17.2013 - 4:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, it's too early in the morning for me to be getting diarrhea off asinine comments. 3034. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.17.2013 - 5:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least he had Pearson 2nd and not SEVENTH (gives cjs dirty look). 3035. jabber1990 posted: 02.17.2013 - 11:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "break the packs up" so physics get broken it 2-car tandem (somehow) "stop the 2-car tandem" so they "fix" it and then everyone complains about, well, everything then we have single-file racing, which makes EVERYONE mad shut up before NASCAR screws it up again 3036. NicoRosbergFan posted: 02.17.2013 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Starting to wonder if this is fixed based on qualifying thus far... 3037. Daniel posted: 02.17.2013 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Qualifying? Is that's what happening in between the Danica Patrick Show on Fox? 3038. New14 & 88Fan posted: 02.17.2013 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never thought I'd utter these words but, Danica Patrick, 2013 Daytona 500 Pole winner. She's the first woman to win a pole in the Sprint Cup Series, and Stweart-Haas cars have been fast so far. The real challenge for her will be the duel races on Thursday and of course the 500 on Sunday. 3039. David posted: 02.17.2013 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lord, help us. Danica just took the pole. Of course, Jeff qualified second, so I'm glad for that. 3040. Benjamin Lowe posted: 02.17.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everyone to the Batcave until this issue calms down. 3041. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.17.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It may never be safe to watch racing again. 3042. DaleSrFanForever posted: 02.17.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let's talk about what this really means, those Hendrick motors are FAST. I think the 500 goes through them. So of those running Hendrick motors, who is gonna be the winner? They have to have a great understanding of the draft (bye bye Jimmie), somebody who has shown they can win plate races in the last 7 seasons (see ya Junior and Kasey), somebody who, one race aside, isn't hated by the plate tracks themselves (bon voyage Ryan), somebody who, in a very short career, hasn't already seemed to invent ways to wreck (Danica), somebody who doesn't driver EGR's boxes of shit (goodbye Jamie and try to avoid the damn jet dryers on the way out this time JPM), and somebody who doesn't get a wicked case of the yips in the closing laps of the Daytona 500 time after time (up in Smoke). So who does that leave? Rainbow Nation, you heard it here, I am GUARANTEEING it: 1997, 1999, 2005, 2013. (And if I'm wrong, nobody will be happier than me lol) 3043. Baker posted: 02.20.2013 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Stewart didn't block anyone. Just like he said he thought he was clear and he wasn't. He admitted it was a mistake but it wasn't blocking. No need for blocking 15 laps into any race of any kind. He did throw a block at Talladega but that was completely different because it was the final lap of the race and he was going for the win. I hate Jimmie Johnson more than any driver in cup right now and I wouldn't fault him for a block like that on the last lap. Infact Jimmie Johnson has beat Jeff Gordon more than once at Martinville by driving with his rearview mirror the last few laps to win races. I thought the one race was one of the best finishes I have ever seen. When its for the win all bets are off throw blocks, drive it in deep, and rub fenders anything but intentially wreck the leader. Nascar actually needs more of that and less complaining about Truex dive bombing at Kansas and Clint Bowyers dive bomb at Martinsville. We need more going all out for the win driving. 3044. Nascar24NBC posted: 05.06.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dodge just left but Jeff Gordon just won! 3045. Nascar24NBC posted: 08.07.2013 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The greatest story Man I'm proud of you guys that was awesome and The Checker Flag and The Sprint Cup Championship goes to Michigan's Brad Keselowski You did guys great job Kimmine Johnson tried again but failed again Jamie Well Jimmine tried his best to win the race ever what did happen to you at the end? I was going 3/4 of my way when I had issues and now I really want to thank Lowes and Team Chevy and to Jeff for winning this race. 3046. Orange posted: 12.15.2013 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) most comment race 3047. WinstonCupStandings posted: 10.09.2014 - 5:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Final Four standings with 2014 Chase rules Kyle Busch (5040) -Champion Brad Keselowski (5029) -11 Kasey Kahne (5023) -17 Jimmie Johnson (5008) -32 3048. 88&4Fan posted: 11.02.2015 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Is this some kind of record for most comments on a single page? 3049. 88&4Fan posted: 01.06.2016 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Just finished reading through the entire comments section for this race, because I felt like it. And from the nearly unanimous celebration over Keselowski winning the championship to about 500 comments arguing over Johnson vs. Gordon vs. Earnhardt (and CJS ranking Pearson 7th) to offseason NFL chatter to JFK conspiracy theories, it was worth it. Also interesting to see how peoples' opinions on Keselowski, Logano, Adrian Peterson, and even RG3 (yes, I used to be on the RG3 bandwagon too, but jumped off more quickly than most Redskins fans). 3050. Gordon7timechamp posted: 01.29.2016 - 6:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) last race for DuPont. 3051. RaceFanX posted: 04.01.2016 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As of 2016 a full 1% of all the comments on Racing-Reference were on this one race...albeit with most of them being off season chatter. Still fun conversation. 3052. chevyfan98 posted: 08.29.2016 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unless there were ones I missed (went through all the Daytona 500s, Homestead pages, Coke 600s, Danica and Jr, and other pages I know have a lot of comments) here are the top ten pages with the most comments on RR. 1. 2012 Ford EcoBoost 400: 3052 (record that will probably never be broken) 2. 2013 Ford EcoBoost 400: 2412 3. 2015 Ford EcoBoost 400: 2009 4. 2013 Federated Auto Parts 400: 1624 (top non-Homestead page and only non-Homestead or Daytona 500 race in the top ten as far as I know) 5. 2014 Ford EcoBoost 400: 1596 6. Danica Patrick: 1226 (top driver) 7. 2013 Daytona 500: 1224 (top Daytona 500, kinda surprising actually) 8. 2011 Ford EcoBoost 400: 1223 9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.: 1181 10. 2014 Daytona 500: 1173 3053. M posted: 10.29.2016 - 7:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) The end of an era. Although technically he is still sponsored by the same company, this was the last race with DuPont sponsoring Jeff Gordon on the 24 car, a partnership dating back to the final race of the 1992 season with the Rainbow Warrior Lumina. To commemorate 20 years together, they ran a special DuPont scheme without the flames for the entire 2012 season. This last race featured a celebratory "reverse" scheme that was silver instead of black. And Jeff gets his and Hendrick Motorsports' first win at Homestead-Miami driving this car, in the final race for DuPont in NASCAR, ending the season on a high note. Very fitting. The next year he would run Cromax Pro until Axalta took over. 3054. Maverick19 posted: 11.23.2016 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2012 Sprint Cup Series Standings with 1983-2003 CART Points System 1. Jimmie Johnson- 325 2. Brad Keselowski- 268 (-57) 3. Denny Hamlin- 261 (-64) 4. Kyle Busch- 238 (-87) 5. Clint Bowyer- 230 (-95) 6. Matt Kenseth- 226 (-99) 7. Greg Biffle- 219 (-106) 8. Kasey Kahne- 214 (-111) 9. Jeff Gordon- 213 (-112) 10. Tony Stewart- 202 (-123) 11. Dale Earnhardt, Jr.- 194 (-131) 12. Martin Truex, Jr.- 165 (-160) 13. Kevin Harvick- 131 (-194) 14. Ryan Newman- 123 (-202) 15. Carl Edwards- 96 (-229) 16. Mark Martin- 93 (-232) 17. Joey Logano- 81 (-244) 18. Marcos Ambrose- 60 (-265) 19. Paul Menard- 59 (-266) 20. Jeff Burton- 51 (-274) 21. Brian Vickers- 43 (-282) 22. Aric Almirola- 35 (-290) 23. Kurt Busch- 32 (-293) 24. A.J. Allmendinger- 25 (-300) 25. Regan Smith- 24 (-301) 26. David Ragan- 18 (-307) 27. Sam Hornish, Jr.- 17 (-308) 28. Jamie McMurray- 17 (-308) 29. Juan Pablo Montoya- 17 (-308) 30. Trevor Bayne- 9 (-316) 31. Bobby Labonte- 7 (-318) 32. Travis Kvapil- 5 (-320) 33. Michael Waltrip- 4 (-321) 34. David Reutimann- 2 (-323) 35. Ricky Stenhouse, Jr,- 1 (-324) No one else scored points. 3055. kup posted: 11.16.2017 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) * Final race: Greg B finished 5th and Brad K 15th, so both could clinch it. IF Greg'd be 1st, his AF'd be 10.1 and he has more miles and UPS than BK. IF Brad'd be 11th or better (1st), his AF'd be 10.0 to 9.7 (if 1st) = more UPS. UPS: universal points system. Driver's UPoints = Miles / Aver.Finish 2012 UPS _ Driver = Miles / AF + Motor-Owner 1346 _ Brad Keselowski 13597 / 10.1 + D-Penske 1339 _ Greg Biffle 13655 / 10.2 + F-Roush 1235 _ Clint Bowyer 13461 / 10.9 + T-Waltrip 1226 _ Matt Kenseth 13607 / 11.1 + F-Roush 1171 _ Dale Earnhardt Jr 12766 / 10.9 + C-Hendr 1130 _ Kevin Harvick / + C-Child 1122 _ Jimmie Johnson / + C-Hendr 1102 _ Martin Truex Jr / + T-Waltrip 1048 _ Denny Hamlin / + T-Gibbs 1014 _ Kasey Kahne / + C-Hendr 983 _ Tony Stewart / + C-Stewart 973 _ Kyle Busch / + T-Gibbs 920 _ Jeff Gordon / + C-Hendr & TOTAL: UPS! 64 years 1949-2012: Dale Earnhardt 8 in: '80, '86, '87, '89, '91, '93, '94, '95. Richard Petty 7 in: '63, '64, '67, '71, '72, '75, '79. Lee Petty 5 in: '50, '52, '54, '58, '59. Jeff Gordon 5 in: '98, '01, '04, '07, '09. David Pearson 4 in: '66, '68, '69, '76. Cale Yarborough 3 in: '74, '77, '78. Bobby Allison 3 in: '81, '82, '83. Mark Martin 3 in: '90, '97, '02. Buck Baker 2 in: '56, '57. Rex White 2 in: '60, '61. Terry Labonte 2 in: '84, '96. Carl Edwards 2 in: '08, '11. Bill Blair 1 in: '49. Fonty Flock 1 in: '51. Herb Thomas 1 in: '53. Tim Flock 1 in: '55. Joe Weatherly 1 in: '62. Ned Jarrett 1 in: '65. Bobby Isaac 1 in: '70. Benny Parsons 1 in: '73. Darrell Waltrip 1 in: '85. Bill Elliott 1 in: '88. Alan Kulwicki 1 in: '92. Dale Jarrett 1 in: '99. Bobby Labonte 1 in: '00. Matt Kenseth 1 in: '03. Tony Stewart 1 in: '05. Jimmie Johnson 1 in: '06. Kevin Harvick 1 in: '10. Brad Keselowski 1 in: '12. 3056. Anthony posted: 01.04.2018 - 9:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) These 3,000+ comments is something that racing-reference will never have again sadly. What's happened since? 3057. Anonymous posted: 01.04.2018 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) @3056, You are dealing multiple factors with the decrease of comments. The First thing is NASCAR has decline in popularity since 2012. The second thing is some the people that post here are no longer posting at this site at all or very rarely for one reason or another. The third thing some people on this site drove people away by impersonating other people on this site or doing some other forms of trolling. 3058. Josh posted: 01.04.2018 - 10:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's a separate site with discussion boards. That's where the bulk of the race chatter happens now. 3059. Anonymous posted: 01.04.2018 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) Because, thankfully, the children who were spamming the comments section with every little thought in their heads or engaging in pointless Danica Patrick arguments left. The activity in the comments may not be as many now, but at least the comments are now mostly informative and interesting. This is a racing database first and foremost, not a message board. 3060. N234m posted: 01.05.2018 - 7:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Where is this new board? 3061. RaceFanX posted: 02.25.2018 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race would be the last for the NASCAR Cup Series without a female driver in the field until the February 2018 event at Atlanta. Danica Patrick was not entered in this race but began her full-time career in 2013 and ran the next 181 races in a row after this one before her retirement after the 2018 Daytona 500. 3062. Evan posted: 05.23.2020 - 10:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only the second time Jeff Gordon won the last race of the season in Cup, the other time was in his great 1998 season where he won that long Atlanta race. He did win the last race of the Busch Series in 2000, even though he wasn't competing full-time. 3063. Mannoroth posted: 05.23.2020 - 11:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3062. He can thank NASCAR for not suspending him after that fiasco with Clint Bowyer at Phoenix in the previous race, because he's the Jeff Gordon, 4-time champion. Apart from Kyle Busch or Matt Kenseth, he can get away with wrecking the championship contender and ruining his chance with just a little fine and point loss... 3064. TTaylor944 posted: 05.23.2020 - 11:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch wrecked a championship contender in a series where he was considered a guest. In 2012 there was no precedent of suspending drivers for doing what Gordon did. The universe isn't out to get Kyle Busch. 3065. Mannoroth posted: 05.23.2020 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3064. Yeah, but Kyle Busch only ruined Ron Hornaday's race. Jeff Gordon also ruined Joey Logano's and Aric Almirola's race as well as Clint Bowyer's race, when he wrecked him. Stop making exceptions for him just because he's so successful - he screwed up big time and should have been suspended for that just like Matt Kenseth. Rules are supposed to be the same for everyone no matter the personality or achievements... 3066. Dennyfan05 posted: 06.15.2020 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is so far the only cup season to have a 3 way tie for most wins. 3067. JSPorts posted: 01.22.2021 - 11:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wins in the Gen-5 car (2007-2012): 1st: Jimmie Johnson, 32 2nd: Kyle Busch, 21 3rd: Denny Hamlin, 20 4th: Tony Stewart, 16 5th: Carl Edwards, 14 6th: Jeff Gordon & Brad Keselowski, 9 8th: Clint Bowyer, Kevin Harvick & Matt Kenseth, 8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: