|| *Comments on the 2013 Federated Auto Parts 400:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. 18fan posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (5) (6) Should be an interesting first lap with three drivers who need a win starting 1-2-3. 2. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:07 pm Rate this comment: (5) (2) Gordon passes Pearson for the record for most consecutive years with a pole with 21. Haha, beat you Gordon fans to it! *makes childish fart noise in Gordon fan's direction* 3. Norman in Ohio posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Congrats to Jeff Gordon! The race should be very interesting. Greg Biffle may be the one on the outside looking in. 4. joey2448 posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) WHOOO!!! So excited Jeff's on the pole, more than anything because he now breaks the tie he held with the Silver Fox for most consecutive years of winning at least one pole (21 straight years!). Good start to the weekend, he's in great position to win this thing! Like I said last week, I think Biffle will drop out and Gordon will replace him in the top 10. The two wild cards will be Kahne (2 wins) and Biffle (1 win). 5. Kenny posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (4) (2) i'm hoping kurt wins this race :) 6. Schroeder51 posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) It may be the pessimist in me speaking here, but Gordon's pole could potentially be a bad omen for him. He doesn't have a good track record at Richmond when it come to winning the pole. He finished 4th in the 2007 spring race, but in his first 4 poles here, he finished no better than 31st place. Probably nothing to worry about it, but it is something to take in consideration. 7. joey2448 posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Shun the non-believer! (Schroeder) Lol, just kidding. By the way, I love the 24 paint scheme! Those colors look nice. Not as nice, though, as the car Jeff drove here in 2001 (Looney Tunes, I think). 8. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff's regular AARP scheme is, imo, the best looking regular scheme he's ever driven. Obviously the rainbow scheme is the most iconic. But Cale's Holly Farms car is iconic too and it is U-G-L-Y. 9. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Richmond hasn't been too kind to Jeff. He has two wins during the Clinton Adminiatration, one of which had a 100 point penalty. Dale was second and eligible for the No Bull Million. Still mad about that one. Cjs says it was NASCAR punishing him for remarks he made about safety, and cjs is wrong. That win should have been Dale's, going 2 for 2 in his final No Bull Million races. 10. DB1995 posted: 09.06.2013 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad keselowski is my favorite driver, but what did he do to get better odds than Jeff Gordon Kurt Busch and others? 11. joey2448 posted: 09.06.2013 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I bought a case of Miller Lite last night (which I never do) in hopes of boosting Brad's chances of making the Chase (and I'm not even superstitious. But I bought some Redd's Apple Ale back in April for the Richmond race and Brad drove a great race and had a fast car that was unfortunately ruined with two separate accidents). 12. Anthony posted: 09.06.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Now this will be the greatest short track racing in a long time since the days of Rusty Ricky Rudd Terry Labonte Dale Earnhardt & so forth, Jeff Gordon vs Kurt Busch The best Short Track racing in a long time on a Saturday Night : ) 13. Anthony posted: 09.06.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes YYYYEEESSEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! P1!!!!!! Jeff Gordon vs Kurt Busch Woooooooooooooooooooooooooo 14. The Long Shot posted: 09.06.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) ^ You wonder what he'd be like if Gordon actually won a race. I'm not sure I really want to know. 15. RaceFanX posted: 09.06.2013 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Jimmie Johnson's second daugther was born today. As such Jimmie spent the day with his wife and children so Regan Smith had to practice and qualify the #48 Lowe's Chevrolet. Congrats to the Johnson family on their new addition. 16. Schroeder51 posted: 09.06.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) If Gordon wins a race, Anthony will probably have the fan-gasm to end all fan-gasms... ...and I'm not looking forward to seeing that. 17. Sector posted: 09.06.2013 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Richmond becomes the sole possession of #3 where Jeff won the most poles @. Martinsville(7) & Charlotte(8) are the only tracks he has more poles. 18. Jim Davis posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Brad keselowski is my favorite driver, but what did he do to get better odds than Jeff Gordon Kurt Busch and others?" Odds are not set by anything a driver does but by how much betting action a driver gets. 19. Bro Jackson posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (2) (8) If Dale Jr. somehow avoids bad luck, mistakes, wrecks, failures, sinkholes and debris to get a top-32 finish, I'll eat crow. I'm sticking to my prediction though! 20. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Oh Bro Jackson. A race weekend without your Dale Jr. predictions is like a weekend without sunshine. All I can say is that we will have a definite answer in a little over 24 hours. 21. Bro Jackson posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (3) (5) We will indeed, my friend. 22. Bro Jackson posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) I would feel it poor form to waver once I make a prediction. 23. Schroeder51 posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) If Bro Jackson's prediction of Junior missing the Chase actually ends up coming true, then I will never question this guy's logic again. 24. cjs3872 posted: 09.06.2013 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well DSFF, why was it that NASCAR let him run that very piece that got them busted much of the year, but then Gordon wins at Richmond after making comments NASCAR wasn't very fond of, and THEN they get "caught" running the very same piece they had run most of the year, which had been deemed legal by the inspectors. NASCAR has a history of letting guys know that they don't like certain critical comments, and punish them in mysterious ways, either by bogus in-race penalties or suspicious post-race penalties, or even by other controversial means. And trust me, that situation in 2000 with Gordon at Richmond was hardly the first such case, nor was it the last such case. The interesting thing is that in Gordon's other Richmond win, in March of 1996, his was one of three cars found to be too low (Dale Jarrett's and Ted Musgrave's being the other two), and no penalties were ever assessed. 25. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.06.2013 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As long as Gordon has no bad luck, a Chase spot is his. Great to see Brad qualify 3rd, I am really hoping he can at least have a strong race. 26. David posted: 09.06.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Gordon passes Pearson for the record for most consecutive years with a pole with 21. Haha, beat you Gordon fans to it!" Unless you count the comments on the Atlanta race page, in which case a Gordon fan beat you to it. 27. Bro Jackson posted: 09.06.2013 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) I enjoy how no matter what I post, it instantly gets thumbs-down'd. Gotta love that. 28. David posted: 09.06.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff's regular AARP scheme is, imo, the best looking regular scheme he's ever driven." I suppose I'll have to concur. I'll admit, when it was announced that Drive to End Hunger would be sponsoring the #24 car, I actually expected a white, unimaginative, dull paint scheme. But it far exceeded my expectations. My first thought when I saw the car on Jayski was "that car is BEAST". And it's only gotten better since 2011. Which version do you like the best? "Obviously the rainbow scheme is the most iconic. But Cale's Holly Farms car is iconic too and it is U-G-L-Y." Ha! So true. 29. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By golly he still has a little bit of fire left in him. I honestly don't think I can watch the race tomorrow night. Its gonna be a barn burner. 30. Dense Drip posted: 09.07.2013 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Mark my words, Greg Biffle will NOT make the chase. 31. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) "I enjoy how no matter what I post, it instantly gets thumbs-down'd. Gotta love that." They can thumbs down you all they want... if your prediction happens to come true, then you're a genius. 32. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mark my words, Greg Biffle will NOT make the chase." I predicted this a few weeks ago too. Nothing against Greg, but to me he seems like the least deserved out of anyone in the running. I think Gordon, Kurt, and even Truex all deserve to be in way more than he does. All he's done this year is gotten his routine Michigan win. Other than that, he's pretty much been a 15th place driver all year. 33. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Cjs, you pretty much just admitted NASCAR let the 24 team run an illegal carb all season until Jeff said something they didn't like. And indirectly admitted Earnhardt never ran anything illegal in his career. For them to never be caught with anything after his epic post Daytona 500 rant that same year says they were 100% legal all the time. 34. 18fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:12 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Biffle is currently 23 points ahead of Truex, so it would take a finish outside the top 25 to knock him out, unless Truex or Newman wins, in which case Biffle is in trouble because I see both Kurt and Jeff Gordon ending the night ahead of Biffle in points. 35. Spen posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:37 am Rate this comment: (9) (0) Apropos of absoultely nothing, here's a complete list of how many starts each manufacturer has made over the years: Chevrolet: 25418 (30.73%) Ford: 24009 (29.02%) Dodge: 8750 (10.58%) Pontiac: 6599 (7.98%) Oldsmobile: 3929 (4.75%) Plymouth: 3536 (4.27%) Buick: 2614 (3.16%) Toyota: 2569 (3.11%) Mercury: 2220 (2.68%) Hudson: 1133 (1.37%) Chrysler: 648 (0.78%) T-Bird: 201 (0.24%) Unknown: 183 (0.22%) Nash: 179 (0.22%) Studebaker: 175 (0.21%) Lincoln: 145 (0.18%) Matador: 94 (0.11%) Henry J: 54 (0.07%) Packard: 51 (0.06%) Cadillac: 40 (0.05%) Kaiser: 28 (0.03%) Camaro: 27 (0.03%) Jaguar: 20 (0.02%) Mustang: 14 (0.02%) MG: 13 (0.02%) Firebird: 12 (0.01%) Willys: 9 (0.01%) Rambler: 8 (0.01%) DeSoto: 7 (0.01%) Javelin: 6 (0.01%) Valiant: 4 (0.00% from here out) Austin Healey: 4 Sprite: 4 Corvette: 4 Porsche: 3 Edsel: 3 Citreon: 2 Tucker: 1 Aston Martin: 1 Volkswagen: 1 Morgan: 1 Meteor: 1 Goliath: 1 Renault: 1 Triumph: 1 Corvair: 1 Alfa Romeo: 1 These 47 manufacturers combine to give us a grand total of 82725 starts. Largest single season result comes from Chevy, who had 712 out of the 1062 cars ran in 1977, a whopping 67% of the field. Ford however has had no worse than 7% in any given season, while Chevy was at 1% or less for the first six years of Cup. Phew, that's *finally* finished. Been working on that off and on for almost a year now. Back to our regularly scheduled board. And two words I never thought I'd say 15+ years ago: Go Gordon. 36. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy cow, Spen, that's a list! Are you sure that some of these manufacturers made starts in NASCAR??? I thought Toyota was only the second one to start in NASCAR? 37. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I appreciate your work Spen, now I'm off to search for those cars with less than 10 starts. For foreign manufacturers it's easy and all I have to do is looking at pre-65 road course races, but I can't imagine what Willys car could ran. It is also weird to think that somewhere in California there (most likely) were 3 guys who ran French cars in a NASCAR race. Citroën ID19, ahh cargasm. 38. Anonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Cjs, you pretty much just admitted NASCAR let the 24 team run an illegal carb all season until Jeff said something they didn't like. And indirectly admitted Earnhardt never ran anything illegal in his career. For them to never be caught with anything after his epic post Daytona 500 rant that same year says they were 100% legal all the time. " Nah, NASCAR just let Dale's team cheat in the pit lane several times, including once coming into the pits two seconds back of Ernie Irvan, having a slower pit stop than Irvan, and coming out three seconds ahead of Irvan. He'd intentionally wreck people and get away with it... so it's not like Dale ever cheated in any way... oh, wait... 39. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:33 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) As a little addition to Spen's huge list, the list of the most obscure entrants by race (or driver where it is easier that way.) Willys: 9 54 Daytona (1), 54 Raleigh (1), 52 Darlington (2), 52 Detroit (2), 52 South Bend (1), 53 Langhorne II (1), 54 Mechanicsburg (1) Rambler: 8 61 Martinsville (1), Larry Hess (5), 57 Portland (1), 56 Martinsville (1) DeSoto: 7 52 Darlington (1), 52 Detroit (2), 52 Monroe (1), 52 South Bend (1), 59 D500 (1), 59 D500Q (1) Valiant: 4 Joe weatherly 60 (3), 61 Winston-Salem (1) Austin Healey: 4 54 Linden (1), 61 Winston-Salem (2), 62 Winston-Salem (1) Corvette: 4 Bill Whitley - Winston-Salem (4) Sprite: 4 61 Winston-Salem (1), 62 Winston-Salem (3) Porsche: 3 54 Linden (1), 53 Langhorne (2) Edsel: 3 61 Marchbanks (1), 59 Pittsburgh (1), 59 D500 (1) Citroen: 2 58 Riverside (2) Tucker: 1 50 Canfield Aston Martin: 1 53 Langhorne Volkswagen: 1 53 Langhorne Morgan: 1 54 Linden Meteor: 1 53 Rochester Goliath: 1 58 Riverside Renault: 1 58 Riverside Triumph: 1 60 Winston-Salem Corvair: 1 61 Riverside Alfa Romeo: 1 62 Winston-Salem Check out the Hess Rambler, it had smokin' looks. 40. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it me, or did half of those 'miniscule' cars start in the 1953 Langhorne event. if memory serves right, that race was crammed to some 60 car feild, and about a third of the way through, at least 12 cars rolled in a 20 car crash? Or am I thinking of the wrong thing? also, without going to NASCAR.com, where can I find all of the nesscary 'What this guy has to do to make/not make' the chase? 41. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, that Langhorne race was an 'International 200' with the ban on foreign cars lifted. You might think about the 1954 September Langhorne event. 42. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:48 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "also, without going to NASCAR.com, where can I find all of the nesscary 'What this guy has to do to make/not make' the chase?" Jayski has a "chase clinch scenario" page. I recommend it. 43. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:49 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Chevrolet: 25418 (30.73%) Ford: 24009 (29.02%) Dodge: 8750 (10.58%) Pontiac: 6599 (7.98%) Oldsmobile: 3929 (4.75%) Plymouth: 3536 (4.27%) Buick: 2614 (3.16%) Toyota: 2569 (3.11%) Mercury: 2220 (2.68%) Hudson: 1133 (1.37%) Chrysler: 648 (0.78%) T-Bird: 201 (0.24%) Unknown: 183 (0.22%) Nash: 179 (0.22%) Studebaker: 175 (0.21%) Lincoln: 145 (0.18%) Matador: 94 (0.11%) Henry J: 54 (0.07%) Packard: 51 (0.06%) Cadillac: 40 (0.05%) Kaiser: 28 (0.03%) Camaro: 27 (0.03%) Jaguar: 20 (0.02%) Mustang: 14 (0.02%) MG: 13 (0.02%) Firebird: 12 (0.01%) Willys: 9 (0.01%) Rambler: 8 (0.01%) DeSoto: 7 (0.01%) Javelin: 6 (0.01%) Valiant: 4 (0.00% from here out) Austin Healey: 4 Sprite: 4 Corvette: 4 Porsche: 3 Edsel: 3 Citreon: 2 Tucker: 1 Aston Martin: 1 Volkswagen: 1 Morgan: 1 Meteor: 1 Goliath: 1 Renault: 1 Triumph: 1 Corvair: 1 Alfa Romeo: 1" Worth noting that these are all official manufacturers to run a race, but some of them are actually different makes of car from the same manufacturer. Corvair, Camaro, and Corvette are all Chevrolets, Rambler and Javelin are AMCs, Sprite is an Austin Healy, Mustang is a Ford, Valiant is a Plymouth. Wanna giggle? The Volkswagen was a BEETLE! 44. numbah48n10hatah (and24phan) posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) GO GORDON!!!! 45. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:45 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Completely off topic (as far as this race is concerned), but this past week Jayski linked to a Forbes article that will appear later this month in the magazine. It's title: "A winning Danica Patrick is NASCAR's biggest hope to restart growth". If that's even remotely true (which it's not), we might as well pull the plug on the sport right now. 46. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @43 NRF, I'm pretty sure that the Ramblers raced was marketed as Rambler Classic or Rambler Rebel. Not like the Javelin (or the Matador), which as you wrote were AMC Javelin. And also the 'Meteor' is a Canadian market Ford '50 Sedan. 47. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ah! Spen has returned! Spen's list is proof that foreign manufacturers have been in NASCAR for a long time, pretty much since its inception. "Citroën" I thought you couldn't use those characters. I guess I was wrong, then. 48. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 12:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "NRF, I'm pretty sure that the Ramblers raced was marketed as Rambler Classic or Rambler Rebel. Not like the Javelin (or the Matador), which as you wrote were AMC Javelin. And also the 'Meteor' is a Canadian market Ford '50 Sedan" Depends on the year... Ramblers were made by... AMC 49. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, the 2014 Cup schedule is expected to be announced later this month, and if Jayski's tentative schedule is any indication, we are in for another year of the same tracks in the same order. I just hate how SMI and ISC have a noose around NASCAR's neck in determining which tracks they race at. If I had my way, here's how the schedule would look: Sprint Unlimited (night) 1.) Daytona 2.) Rockingham 3.) Phoenix 4.) Atlanta 5.) Fontana 6.) Martinsville 7.) Bristol 8.) North Wilkesboro 9.) Richmond (night) 10.) Talladega 11.) Darlington (night) 12.) Iowa 13.) Charlotte (night) 14.) All-Star Race at Eldora (night) 15.) Pocono 16.) Sonoma 17.) Daytona (morning) 18.) Bowman Gray Stadium (night) 19.) Mid-Ohio 20.) Indianapolis Raceway Park (night) 21.) Watkins Glen 22.) Michigan 23.) Iowa (night) 24.) Bristol (night) 25.) Darlington 26.) Richmond (night) >Chase Begins< 27.) Greenville-Pickens 28.) Laguna Seca 29.) Dover 30.) Talladega 31.) Martinsville 32.) Kansas (night) 33.) Texas (night) 34.) Rockingham 35.) Homestead 36.) Atlanta I know this would never happen as long as there's a France or Smith involved, but wouldn't a schedule like this be really cool? 50. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Kansas at night in late October?! Brrrrr... 51. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Kansas at night in late October?! Brrrrr..." In that case, I'd make it a day race. 52. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd suggest replacing the Kansas night race with Montreal and replacing the Darlington night race with Road America (changing the Labor Day Weekend race's name back to the Southern 500). 53. Eric posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) SpeedWorld97, I think putting Rockingham as a 2nd race of the season is a bad idea based on how that race date turned for Rockingham years ago in terms of attendance. I recommend putting Rockingham in March or April instead because it wouldn't be as cold and a chance for better weather for the race. Phoenix and Fontana should be moved up because of the weather of the location is better than Atlanta and Rockingham. 54. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Montreal in late October would be awful weather. If Cup raced in Montreal, it would have to be sometime from June-August. While I would like Road America, I really think Darlington deserves a Mother's Day night race and Labor Day weekend Southern 500, which is how my schedule is arranged. 55. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Well, I suppose you could go "Gran Turismo" on the bit and strap on snow tires... 56. The Sound posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, I simulated Richmond on NR2003 with the updated driver ratings from the NRatings program after Atlanta. Jeff Gordon won when Clint Bowyer ran out of gas with 2 laps to go, and Kurt Busch finished 9th, dropping out of the Top 10 in points. Kasey Kahne and Martin Truex Jr. (the 4th place finisher) make the Chase as wild cards. 57. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Do you still have the full results? I'd like to see them. 58. Dense Drip posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A Sprint Cup race at Bowman Gray Stadium would be awesome, but there's no way 43 cars could race on that track. 59. The Sound posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #57 I exported the standings, but the file seems to be corrupted. I do have a screenshot of the Top 10: http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz160/TheSoundofSF/RichmondPreview2013_zps2f78d8ce.jpg Let me know if the picture doesn't show up. And as for the results, that game can be quirky. It's prone to long green flag runs, often 100+ laps, but then it'll have 5 cautions in 25 laps. It also invariably tends to have a wreck during green flag pit stops, so many times less than ten cars will finish on the lead lap. 60. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "A Sprint Cup race at Bowman Gray Stadium would be awesome, but there's no way 43 cars could race on that track." I know, and it's a shame we have the "43-cars tv commitments" today. Otherwise I'd make it a 30-car field (top 25 in points, plus 5 fastest non-25 drivers). With, that, there would be a good chance of Danica missing the race, and if that happened, Brian France and Darrell Waltrip would have a stroke. 61. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) DSFF (#33), as I noted, NASCAR has, for their own purposes, allowed teams to run illegal, or non-conforming parts (or entire car) for decades. Remember when Bill Elliott dominated the speedways in 1985? He did so because of the way his brother Ernie illegally enhanced the horsepower by pressurizing the fuel and/or air flow into the engine. Dan Elliott admitted they did that, and that's about as illegal as it gets, yet it was an area NASCAR never even looked at. And of course, even though they only got caught doing it twice (in October of 1973 and October of 1983), there were rumors that Richard Petty ran an oversized engine for many years. David Pearson even said they may have had a big engine during the 1976 Daytona 500, and Junior Johnson used oversized engines for many years, but only got caught twice, and were not penalized in October of 1973. There was another case in 1965 where NASCAR let a car it knew was illegal race in the World 600. Why? Because Ford was dominating everything and NASCAR badly wanted Chevrolet back in NASCAR (which was one of the reasons the Hemi was outlawed in 1965). NASCAR has been known to let teams get away with things like that if it serves their interests. But the whole thing regarding Gordon at Richmond in 2000 reminds me of the whole George Brett Pine Tar incident in 1983. Yankee manager Billy Martin knew, or at least highly suspected Brett was using a bat with an illegal amount of pine tar, and let him get away with it, until a crucial spot came along, and when that occurred, Martin sprung the trap and Brett was called out on what would have been a go-ahead HR. Of course, the Royals protested, and won the protest, and eventually the game. When a competitor does, or says something NASCAR doesn't like, they'll come down with a phantom penalty, or at least a very suspicious penalty as a way of keeping the competitors in line. Then came the "secret fines" of a couple of years ago for criticism a couple of competitors made toward NASCAR, before everyone got wise to what NASCAR was doing, so they then had to makes those fines public. The latest of those penalties as handed down to Denny Hamlin after Phoenix this year, when he criticized the competitiveness of the car t debuted this year. But guess what? He was dead on the money there. The car in use this year has not produced very much competition at all. It's just that Denny figured it out before anyone else inside the sport did, NASCAR didn't like it and fined him for comments that many at the time thought were true, and have proven to be right on the money. 62. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.07.2013 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even though the wild card race has made wins more important,if Gordon and Kurt Busch score top5s or even top10s, we may have 4 winless drivers in the chase like 09 63. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Modern day Cup cars at Bowman Gray? Would be funny to watch. Here is my take on the schedule: We have 5 races in the Mid West and they all suck. 2 at Kansas, 1 at Chicago and Kentucky, and The Brickyard. We will replace the first Kansas race with a day Iowa race. Kentucky will be replaced by Road America. We'll keep the Brickyard initially to keep the drivers from crying. NOT! You think I give a damn about the drivers? It's weekend will be a Saturday night race at Salem. We'll throw up some safer barriers and reconfigure pit road. Chicago will be replaced by a night Iowa race. And the second Kansas race will go to Mid Ohio. So now only 1 of the 5 Midwest dates suck. Texas Motor Speedway is gone. Both of their dates go to the new road course in Houston. Gotta have two races in Texas cause their girls are HOT. Charlotte gets to keep the Memorial Day 600 ONLY because of the tradition. The All Star race goes to Atlanta (until they repave it) with the final segment being the length of one fuel run with any tire changing resulting in a DQ. The Fall race at Charlotte is also replaced by Atlanta in the day at 500 miles. And when the sad day comes where they HAVE to repave that track? We bring back Wilkesboro. You know how Indy 500 winners get the glass of milk? Winners there get a used Coke bottle full of moonshine to swig. Fontana is kept and returned to 500 miles provided they don't repave it. Once they have to repave it, that date goes to Laguna Seca. Unless somebody wants to build a Riverside clone somewhere in SoCal. Vegas is replaced by a second Sears Point race, this one will use the carosel. I like the idea of going to a road course twice but using two different configurations. In fact, we are going to replace the first Loudon date with a second Watkins Glen date, one that uses Das Boot. And the second Glen race, the one on the shorter course, is moved to the chase replacing Talladega, whose second date goes back to the late Summer. Will it be blistering hot? Yep. Do I care? Nope. Also, I think the Houston road course can have different configurations. We can toy with that. The second Loudon date goes to Rockingham in an old school 492 lap race. Oh, the Dover chase race? 500 laps. Going old school with the marathons. Oh, I forgot about the two Michigan races in the Mid West. Our Mid Western have SEVEN dates, all of which suck. The first date will be replaced by a Saturday night race in Winchester. We will move its second date to Mosport. And Labor Day Sunday will be a 500 mile race at DARLINGTON. And the best part? I have expanded the chase to 12 races. It opens with THE Southern 500! Also, the first Richmond race will be a Sundau afternoon race. The Firecracker 400 will also be a 1pm race. Will it be brutally hot? Yes. Do I care? No. 64. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) *meant to add "NOT" to the end of the "only 1 of 5 Mid West races suck". If I ruled NASCAR, I'd have a meeting with the drivers telling them the sweeping changes, and immediately say "you know your precious Brickyard 400? It's gone. Any complaints may be forwarded here" while grabbing my crotch. 65. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If I ruled NASCAR, I'd have a meeting with the drivers telling them the sweeping changes, and immediately say "you know your precious Brickyard 400? It's gone. Any complaints may be forwarded here" while grabbing my crotch." Only DSFF would have the ball...ahem, the guts to make a comment like that. 66. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I planned on doing one of these hypothetical schedules a few weeks ago, so I'll give mine right now. If you're wondering about the numbers on the sides of some of them, that's basically just an indicator of whether it's the Spring or Fall race. 1. Daytona 500 2. Rockingham 400 3. Atlanta 500 4. Richmond 400 (Day) 5. Bristol 500 (Day) 6. Darlington 400 7. Martinsville 500 8. Fontana 500 (Don't repave this place!!!!) 9. Sonoma 350K (Add lights, have it be a night race just for the hell of it.) 10. Texas 500 (Only one race at Texas, and it's a day race.) 11. Talladega 500 12. Coca Cola 600 13. Dover 400 14. Pocono 500 (I've been back and forth on this in the past, but I'm just gonna make this the only race at Pocono. That's why it's back to 500 miles.) 15. Michigan 400 (Same as Pocono, only race at Michigan.) 16. Road America 17. Firecracker 400 (I really don't care if it's a day or night race.) 18. ELDORA (Only 30 cars, top 25 in points locked in, the other five race in through heat races.) 19. New Hampshire 300 (Sorry Avery, but this is the only race here.) 20. Talladega 500 (Summer) 21. Iowa 300 22. Iowa 300 (These will be twin races, like what IndyCar has done this year. One will be day, one will be night.) 23. Watkins Glen 24. Bristol Night Race 25. Southern 500 at Darlington (LABOR DAY) 26. Richmond 400 (Night) 27. Kansas OR Chicago 400 (I don't like either, so take your pick. We're only having one of them.) 28. Dover 500 (DSFF's idea about this one being 500 miles, I like it.) 29. Brickyard 400 30. Mid Ohio 31. Martinsville 500 32. Rockingham 400 33. Phoenix 500K 34. Homestead Season Finale As for exhibition races, it'll be the Shootout (or Unlimited, ugh) at Daytona, and the All Star Race rotating each year to a different track. And there's only 34 races too. I liked DSFF's idea of starting the Chase at Darlington in the Southern 500. I also think my choice of doubling the road course races is a good one. 4 road courses sounds pretty good to me (including one in the Chase). And I got rid of Vegas too. I'm pretty sure everyone would rather have an Eldora race instead of a Vegas race, right? 67. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Disregard that sentence about the numbers on the side of them. I was originally gonna have numbers on the side like (1) or (2) that would indicate the first or second race at the given track. But I decided not to and forgot to delete that sentence. 68. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Only DSFF would have the ball...ahem, the guts to make a comment like that. You guys may discuss my balls on this forum. You have my permission :) 21. Iowa 300 22. Iowa 300 (These will be twin races, like what IndyCar has done this year. One will be day, one will be night.) I really like this idea. Have two points paying races. One on Saturday night, one on Sunday afternoon the next day. If it rains Saturday night? An afternoon race then a night on the same day. The drivers can handle it. How many drivers did double duty the same day at Charlotte '03, Daytona '07, Cali and Richmond '08 when the Busch race was rained out? 69. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) DSFF, if they ran the Firecracker 400 at 1 pm, who would televise it, and would it even be a live telecast? That's why they made it a prime time race to begin with. Late in 1997, a deal was made with CBS for them to broadcast the race on network TV, but a major stipulation was that the race had to be moved to prime time because of weekend children's/family programming requirements mandated by the FCC. So that race had to be moved to a night race if it was going to be broadcast live on a major network, just to adhere to he FCC mandate. But then again, some of your ideas in that post were just plain dumb. Texas now ranks with Atlanta as the best of the intermediates. Also, Fontana and Atlanta will be repaved. Fontana badly needs to be repaved, as does Kentucky. The last things that is needed is any more debacles resulting from the track surface coming apart. Have some of us learned nothing from debacles within the last decade at Martinsville, Charlotte, and worst of all, the 2010 Daytona 500? And murb, I do agree with the idea of having the Brickyard 400 somewhere in the Chase, because the Chase needs an event of that stature, plus there needs to be more kinds of tracks in the Chase, and IMS is a one-of-a-kind track. That's one thing that separated the first Chase in 2004 from the others, because you had the Southern 500 as part of that year's Chase. But having the Brickyard 400 that late in the season is a very risky idea, because of possible weather concerns. There's a reason why all the races near the end of the season are in the southern portion of the country, either in Texas, Arizona, Florida, or even in California or Georgia in years gone by. The weather doesn't figure to be as big a factor if you have the first few and last few races in that part of the country. However, I do agree that the finale needs to be a 500-mile race. Just look at last weekend's race at Atlanta. There were more twists and turns than you would see at a pretzel factory, and much of it has to do with it being a 500-mile race. No matter where it's run, whether it's Las Vegas, Homestead, or Auto Club Speedway, the final race needs to be 500 miles. Not just because of all the surprises that a race of that distance can bring, but also for the fans who will not watch any more racing for three months. And I think it's right that a champion needs to prove himself in a 500-mile race. After all, the 500-mile race has always been auto racing's "test of champions", going all the way back to 1911. 70. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) @ #66, I like that schedule, only I would switch Mid-Ohio with COTA. Plus make all the road course races start from a standing position. 71. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Only DSFF would have the ball...ahem, the guts to make a comment like that. You guys may discuss my balls on this forum. You have my permission :)" But only me and NASCAR are allowed to kick them. Seriously, murb's schedule actually looks realistic. Unfortunately, you aren't going to get a dirt track race that isn't just a glorified short track race (like this year's was) unless you go to somewhere with brutal dirt like Knoxville or the Charlotte dirt track. 72. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You guys may discuss my balls on this forum. You have my permission :)" Ummmm...okaaayy...moving on... 73. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Here I save DSFF from cjs once again. "DSFF, if they ran the Firecracker 400 at 1 pm, who would televise it, and would it even be a live telecast? That's why they made it a prime time race to begin with. Late in 1997, a deal was made with CBS for them to broadcast the race on network TV, but a major stipulation was that the race had to be moved to prime time because of weekend children's/family programming requirements mandated by the FCC. So that race had to be moved to a night race if it was going to be broadcast live on a major network, just to adhere to he FCC mandate. " Run it on freaking Sunday and that issue is taken care of. Next! "Texas now ranks with Atlanta as the best of the intermediates. Also, Fontana and Atlanta will be repaved. Fontana badly needs to be repaved, as does Kentucky. The last things that is needed is any more debacles resulting from the track surface coming apart. Have some of us learned nothing from debacles within the last decade at Martinsville, Charlotte, and worst of all, the 2010 Daytona 500?" Did we watch to the same races? Atlanta is going kind of like Rockingham where the track was paved so well it's still as safe as new. Remember, fresh pavement doesn't guarantee squat (see Texas, 1997). Fontana is in a climate where it should be another 10-20 years before it needs repaving. 74. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the compliments guys. CJS, I agree with you in that the season finale should be 500 miles. I really like Homestead as the finale (maybe because it is sort of reminiscent of the old Atlanta?), so my choice would be to keep it there. I definitely think having it be 500 miles would be a good move. "Unfortunately, you aren't going to get a dirt track race that isn't just a glorified short track race (like this year's was) unless you go to somewhere with brutal dirt like Knoxville or the Charlotte dirt track." Yeah, I just picked Eldora because it's already had a Nascar race. But those others wouldn't be bad either. Charlotte actually could be realistic. In my schedule I got rid of the Fall Charlotte race, so maybe a Charlotte dirt race could take it's place. Everybody would win. The fans would get a dirt race, and the teams would get their "home" race that they are so fond of. 75. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I like your schedule. The only thing I would disagree with is the second Talladega race. If my math is correct that would put it around the first week of August. I know this race used to be in the summer, but as someone who lives in Alabama (even the middle part of) the state can be just downright miserable during that period. I'm a perennial Talladega attendee and even I would have to think twice about whether I really wanted to sit out in the blistering heat to go to that race. Not to mention the sporadic summer showers that Alabama is famous for during the summer. I am fairly certain it rained here EVERY DAY this summer. Those two reasons were why the July Daytona race has never been in the afternoon, always early morning and night. I think May and October are good dates for Talladega. Neither are too hot or too cold. 76. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "DSFF, if they ran the Firecracker 400 at 1 pm, who would televise it, and would it even be a live telecast?" Televise it like any other 1 pm race. I don't understand the confusion. "But then again, some of your ideas in that post were just plain dumb." Wow! That is as colorful as you will ever see cjs here! "Texas now ranks with Atlanta as the best of the intermediates." Sorry, but if the Texas races now rank as "good" then we have seriously lowered the bar. Yes, TMS has improved dramatically. Which isn't saying much at all. "Ok" isn't good enough. We are going road racing instead. "The last things that is needed is any more debacles resulting from the track surface coming apart. Have some of us learned nothing from debacles within the last decade at Martinsville, Charlotte, and worst of all, the 2010 Daytona 500?" What I learned is that, while they were racing, the '04 Martinsville race and the 2010 Daytona 500 had some of the best racing. Charlotte was self inflicted with the ridiculous levigating. The good thing is we now have pothole fixing down to a science. Besides, I have plans listed for those tracks one they have to be repaved. They are taken off the schedule and replaced. "I do agree with the idea of having the Brickyard 400 somewhere in the Chase" I don't. I think the Brickyard 400 needs to be in the same area of the NASCAR schedule where races like the First Union 400 or the Western North Carolina 500 currently reside. Non existant. "I do agree that the finale needs to be a 500-mile race" Now this I agree with. 334 laps at Homestead! 77. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A few more notes about your schedule Murb. As I said I like the races, but 1) I'd be leery about putting Rockingham back in its old slots. Form what I heard it can be miserably cold during February and November in that region and apparently that may have contributed to the lack of attendance that ultimately caused it to lose both dates. The same goes for Richmond. 2) I'd take Kansas over Chicago any day. Actually I'd probably prefer Vegas. 3) I don't know whether The Chase was factored into this or not, but I like the idea of having it begin with a big race...the Southern 500. 4) Wish Atlanta had earned it's second date back, but such is life. 5) Glad you kept the Brickyard. 78. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) One of my suggestions would be that if the drivers don't put on a good show then they don't get paid. 79. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's another good suggestion to salvage the 2013 season. Have the season finale be at Rockingham on December 1st in the bitter cold. 80. Eric posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is a problem with Atlanta having 2 cup race dates. Atlanta is a great track, but the attendance isn't there for 2 cup race dates. Atlanta is known as a bad sports city because the city has problems selling out sports events. Atlanta had NHL teams 2 times, but were forced to be relocated due to bad attendance. The Atlanta Braves of the 1990's was a great organization, but had problems with fans showing up to the ballpark. 81. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think I support a Cup points race on dirt, especially if it was just one such race. Most dirt venues would I think be dreadfully boring especially with these cars. The truck style of racing may be a good match for dirt, but a Cup race would just be a gimmick unless there were several, and if there were several, it would ratchet up the costs of running a team. If there were different rules for the dirt race as there were at Eldora this year, it would open up yet another can of worms (changing the rules for a single race each year?) and I think at this point it would be seen as a regression since Cup has not raced on dirt since 1970 (people would start making ARCA comparisons, and it wouldn't be pretty). The trucks had a rather gimmicky history from day one (half-time breaks, green-white-checkereds, inverting the top qualifiers a couple times in its first season) and for that reason I do see dirt as a match for trucks, but I think Cup has outgrown it and while it's entertaining to watch, I would only support it for a non-points race. And I say this living in Syracuse, where the Syracuse Mile, one of the most legendary dirt venues long enough to hold a Cup race (that had both Cup and IndyCar races decades ago) is located... Although I too find the cookie-cutter races boring, I would not delete any of the tracks from the schedule, nor would I delete Indy. In all of those cases, I believe the issue is the engineering of the cars. IndyCar has had many great races at Indy as well as Chicagoland, Kansas, Kentucky, etc... I think NASCAR would have had tons of entertaining races at those tracks as well in earlier decades (Michigan and Pocono are viewed as boring now but had lots of great races in the '70s and '80s...same deal.) Aero push is not the fault of those specific tracks, it is because of the way today's NASCAR cars are engineered. Since all those tracks are so similar, I wouldn't race at any of them twice however (even Atlanta). I definitely support more than two road course races a year. Although road racing in NASCAR is an established tradition (unlike dirt which is hardly traditional at this point since most of the modern era drivers haven't even raced on it, except maybe in their grassroots years), two races is a novelty and an expensive one, just as racing a few races on dirt would be. However, I think there are many more suitable road courses that are big enough venues for NASCAR than dirt tracks, and I've enjoyed almost all NASCAR road races more than that Eldora novelty, which kind of disappointed me. Road America is a must. The new F1 track in Austin would be an excellent choice (and they're trying to have pretty much every series on earth racing there). Road Atlanta has some NASCAR history since Busch raced there in the '80s and would seem to be one of the best choices (I'd rather race there and Atlanta once each than AMS twice...) I would also move the Firecracker 400 to the infield road course. It's usually been the most boring plate race, I hate recent plate racing in general (so I admit my bias there), and although infield road courses aren't usually as good as purpose-built road courses, that is considered the best and most legendary one and has almost as much history as DIS itself given the 24 Hours of Daytona. Would I also move the Brickyard to the IMS road course? Tempted, but nah. Six would be enough. Mid-Ohio? I find that track incredibly dull most of the time and can't remember any kind of great race this year (the IndyCar race this year was okay but most of them, CART or IRL, have been pretty awful). I'd pick the Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport first as far as mid-west CART venues go. But for my seventh and last selection, I'd choose the Portland road course, which did have a bunch of great CART (and Craftsman Truck) races in the '90s, and is in the Pacific Northwest, which is the most underrepresented region... I'd race at Portland before Canada, but I think either would bring in the fans. I'd stay away from street courses. I know IndyCar has had some very entertaining street course races this year, but NASCAR's attempt at street course racing (Montreal) was essentially a failure, even though it brought in the fans. I would add a second Darlington race (the Southern 500, while keeping the Mother's Day one), re-add one Rockingham race, and one North Wilkesboro race, add a Milwaukee race (I know the track has been in a sorry financial state for years, but I never understood why Cup wasn't running there) and two Iowa races. I would also add an IRP race the week before the Brickyard, creating a kind of "Indiana Speedweeks" that may return interest to the Brickyard, but I would keep the Brickyard on the oval rather than moving it to the infield road course. I'd rather see THAT kind of "Speedweeks" than the rumor of having an IndyCar road race on the infield road course at the start of May. 82. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just realized in my schedule I forgot to account for the lost Mother's Day weekend. The Series will be off that weekend. I am gonna shitcan the "All Star" race altogether. It is a dumb idea nowadays anyways. Every race is an "All Star" race. And the fan vote has taken away the "best of the best" label it used to have. Danica in the All Star Race? Epic Projectile Vomit! That weekend will give Atlanta a second Cup date. Attendance issues? Probably. So it will be just like every other week in NASCAR. That is what we need to realize, this sport is declining badly. We need to reinject excitement. Then the fans will come. 83. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "4) Wish Atlanta had earned it's second date back, but such is life." My whole thing with this was that I really like the prestige that Atlanta has gotten with only the one date. To me it's almost become one of the crown jewels. But I didn't take the Rockingham date thing into consideration. So I don't know. As much as I love Rockingham, maybe replace the second race there on my schedule with a second Atlanta date. 84. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just realized my schedule has NINE road courses, with a 10th one looming once Cali's pavement gives out. AWESOME! 10 short tracks (with another two looming once Atlanta's pavement gives out). 5 one milers. Just 4 1.5 milers, two of which at Atlanta, and one at Homestead. 4 plate races, two of which will be in the brutal heat. Two Poconos (once the pavement starts to fade, they must re-add the Grip Strip), one two miler at worn out Fontana, and Darlington. I like it! 85. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Starting with the current schedule, and adjusting a little... No Shootout (that race lost whatever interest it once had LONG before the Brickyard did) Daytona 500 Fontana Texas Road Atlanta Bristol Martinsville Kansas Richmond (day) Talladega Darlington (night) Eldora (all-star race) Charlotte (night) Dover Michigan Sonoma Portland Kentucky Firecracker 400 (DIS road course) Chicagoland Milwaukee Iowa IRP (night...come to think of it maybe a mid-week race a la Eldora would be better for this) Indianapolis Pocono Watkins Glen Bristol (night) Southern 500 (day) Richmond (night) Road America North Wilkesboro Loudon Austin (too close to the F1 race? Probably) Talladega (hate having 2 races there, but I get the popularity) Martinsville Phoenix Atlanta Homestead No chase, and I'd want to see improvements on the raceability of the cars, or else I would cut most of the cookie-cutters from the schedule myself. Did I forget anything? 86. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Unless somebody wants to build a Riverside clone somewhere in " I posted on Yahoo! Answers a number of years ago why not build a Riverside Clone in Washington or Oregon? the main answer I remember was "Ontario" as for the finale being 500 miles, I have another idea..550 miles why? just to screw with everyone 87. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess you could call my schedule a kind of compromise between what we currently have and DSFF's suggestions. I happen to like road racing more than oval racing myself, but 10 road course races would be overkill given NASCAR history in general. I think 7 probably is, but I still like the ones I added more than most of the superspeedway races. And DSFF, you did mean Circuit of the Americas in Austin, not that shitty IndyCar street course in Houston, right? While I'd love a Cup race in Austin, I think I'd prefer even two Cup races at TMS to one in Houston. Montreal proved Cup races on street courses don't work. Many would say IndyCar races on street courses don't work either, but they're kind of forced to race on them because not enough ovals and road courses can afford to pay the sanctioning fees anymore, while NASCAR CAN afford to race anywhere it wants. 88. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said I wanted Rockingham back, and I forgot it. Place it between Martinsville and Phoenix, its traditional old school place on the schedule. 89. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Montreal proved Cup races on street courses don't work." Actually it proved Nationwide races on street courses don't work, but I think the same would hold true for Cup. 90. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Montreal proved Cup races on street courses don't work." I personally thought the Montreal races were great. What was so bad about it in your opinion? I was always enthralled. 91. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see no need for a 500-mile requirement for the finale. 500 miles isn't really a test of equipment anymore like it used to be. I WOULD like to see the minimum race distance moved up from 250 miles to 500K. A 312-mile road course races would be much better than a 220-mile road course race (which most of them are now, which seems to be more of a Nationwide than a Cup distance to me...) 92. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Daytona 500 Fontana" how's that worked out in the past? (2008?) 93. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I personally thought the Montreal races were great. What was so bad about it in your opinion? I was always enthralled." Too much crashing, way too long cautions, interminable endings due to multiple green-white-checkereds. Mind you, I love road racing so those were some of the only Nationwide races I watched in those years (life's too short to watch Nationwide on an oval), but it seemed gimmicky in a way road racing on natural courses did not. Having said that, I did love the IndyCar street races at St. Petersburg, Sao Paulo, and Toronto this year (but last weekend's Baltimore race was the same kind of demolition derby stuff that just turns me off, and I was even turned off by a lot of the classic Bristol races for the same reason...) 94. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I failed to finish that, sorry. Given that I have loved some IndyCar street races, I'm definitely capable of being swayed on this I think, just as I think somebody could probably sway me on a Cup race on dirt. Although I don't think I'd want to see either on my ideal Cup schedule, I'll admit the races would both be more entertaining than most intermediates are... 95. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have a serious question why doesn't NASCAR for 1 race a season run a 400 mile race in the Truck and Nationwide series? 96. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "how's that worked out in the past? (2008?)" Has there been ANY Daytona 500 follow-up that got stellar attendance? Maybe there should be an off week immediately after Daytona? 97. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Changing courses, as exciting as the race to get into the Chase is, no matter how it turns out I'll be slightly disappointed. I remember when a lot of people hated Jeff Gordon (myself included). Now it seems like everyone and their mother is pulling for him tonight (including myself). Brooke Werner posted a picture of herself on Facebook with the trophy and asked who people wanted to see take it home. Overwhelmingly the answer was Jeff Gordon. Kind of makes me wonder how Jimmie will be viewed in 7 or 8 years. 98. 83andJoe posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interestingly, as I recall there was a race in the 1950s that a Jaguar actually WON... Hmm, schedule. Lessee. Will ponder on that. 99. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, even though I said I was going to leave all the cookie-cutters on the schedule, I inadvertently removed Las Vegas. Okay, to be fair I'll ditch an ISC cookie cutter too. Chicagoland/Kansas to alternate years until NASCAR's gotten the aero package right again. That brings the schedule back to 36. 100. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""how's that worked out in the past? (2008?)" Has there been ANY Daytona 500 follow-up that got stellar attendance? Maybe there should be an off week immediately after Daytona? " what I meant was February is usually rainy in Southern California 101. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just wish there was a way Kurt Busch, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Martin Truex, and Brad Keselowski could all make the Chase. I want to see all of them in it. But such is life. 102. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "what I meant was February is usually rainy in Southern California" Yep. If I remember correctly, I stayed up to some obnoxious early morning time before they finally called that 2008 race and I had school the next morning. That was the worse, although there was something exciting about the possibility that the race may start at 2am or something. 103. The Sound posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A little apprehensive about Gordon. Sounds like he was not quite as good in race trim as he seemed, according to Garrow. 104. startandparkfan posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Farther up i saw this- "27. Kansas OR Chicago 400 (I don't like either, so take your pick. We're only having one of them.)" Do something like the F1 German Grand Prix (alternating between the Nurburgring and the Hockenheimring). 105. Peter posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow..48 car getting 100-1 odds...they do know jimmie will be driving the race right? 106. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wow..48 car getting 100-1 odds...they do know jimmie will be driving the race right?" The 100-1 odds are for Regan Smith, and those are just the "field" odds. 107. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Too much crashing, way too long cautions, interminable endings due to multiple green-white-checkereds. Mind you, I love road racing so those were some of the only Nationwide races I watched in those years (life's too short to watch Nationwide on an oval), but it seemed gimmicky in a way road racing on natural courses did not. Having said that, I did love the IndyCar street races at St. Petersburg, Sao Paulo, and Toronto this year (but last weekend's Baltimore race was the same kind of demolition derby stuff that just turns me off, and I was even turned off by a lot of the classic Bristol races for the same reason...)" The only thing I hate about NASCAR road course racing is that they stopped calling local cautions. It's especially dumb to have 4 lap cautions at a 4 mile road course, as they often do at Road America, all because a guy's hit an advertiser sign that a marshal could easily move when no cars are on that part of the track or a car has spun out and doesn't get straightened out within half a second. 108. Mamorese posted: 09.07.2013 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Jeff will get screwed out of a win by debris cautions. Not even worth watching. 109. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Jeff will get screwed out of a win by debris cautions. Not even worth watching. " Boy, that escalated quickly... 110. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, remember that ABC had to show the Brickyard 400 on tape delay for several years beginning in 1995, due to the FCC programming requirements on weekends. Also NicoRosbergFan, they can't schedule the Firecracker 400 for Sundays for one reason. What happens if it gets rained out? It's scheduled for Saturdays to allow for a built-in rain date in the event it does get rained out. That's also why the Brickyard 400 ran on Saturdays for it's first seven years, because of the unpredictable nature of summertime weather in Indy. However, except for when the remnants of that hurricane hit in 1995, weather has never been a problem for he Brickyard 400. But NASCAR can't afford have an event like the Firecracker 400 get rained out and not have an available rain date, which is currently has on the Sunday of the weekend on which it's run. When the moved the Southern 500 up a day to the Sunday of Labor Day weekend in 1984, that gave that event a built-in rain date, which it maintains due to the fact that it's now held on the Saturday of Mother's Day weekend. And they actually had to use that rain date for the 2007 event, so having a built-in rain date for the big events certainly paid off then. And what I meant when I said that Texas has moved up to second to Atlanta among the intermediates has to do with the fact that the track surface is old and the tires wear enough to make them important, but at the same time, not get to the point where its bumps have make the track dangerous. At Fontana and Kentucky, the track is so rough that those tracks have actually become dangerous, hence repaves are necessary at both places. Not so at Texas. And as for the schedule, I think it's almost good as it is, though there could be tweaks made. The only things I would change would be to drop one of the races from Pocono and make the other one 500 miles (the two races there are too close to each other on the schedule, anyhow), make one of the Michigan races 500 miles to differentiate between the two races there, increase the length of the finale to 500 miles, move either the Brickyard 400 or the Southern 500 to the start of the Chase and switch the Chicagoland date with the race that's moved, and move the race at Sonoma to the Chase. Other than that, I would leave it as it is, though it would only be a 35-race season with one of the Pocono races dropped and not replaced. 111. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way, FOX Sports 1 has gotten Adam Alexander, who we know can't do lap-by-lap calls of NASCAR races adequately, calling college football games. He's more of a studio guy than a play-by-play guy. 112. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol at Adam Alexander doing college football. 113. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Guys, remember that ABC had to show the Brickyard 400 on tape delay for several years beginning in 1995, due to the FCC programming requirements on weekends. Also NicoRosbergFan, they can't schedule the Firecracker 400 for Sundays for one reason. What happens if it gets rained out? It's scheduled for Saturdays to allow for a built-in rain date in the event it does get rained out. That's also why the Brickyard 400 ran on Saturdays for it's first seven years, because of the unpredictable nature of summertime weather in Indy. However, except for when the remnants of that hurricane hit in 1995, weather has never been a problem for he Brickyard 400." WTF are you smoking today dude?! If that were the case, NASCAR would run EVERY race on Saturdays. They obviously don't care about that anymore, and even still the family/kids programming is done by noon on over 75% of networks. 114. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'd love to see Adam Alexander just start cross-commentating, just start mixing NASCAR terms into the college football broadcast. "And we've got caution on the field, it's holding on the offense." 115. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:52 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Wait, there's still family/kids' programming on Saturday mornings? Not that I've paid attention for many years, but it seems to me like most of the morning cartoons have been replaced by infomercials and/or pseudo-news shows during the past decade or so. 116. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) NicoRosbergFan, I forgot to clarify that the Brickyard 400 had to be shown on tape delay from 1995-'97 in the Pacific and Mountain Time Zones. Of course, in the Eastern and Central Time Zones, they did have live coverage, which was rained out n 1995. The coverage of that race was shown on ESPN the following day. And also, I was referring to the bigger races on the circuit, such as the Coca-Cola 600, the Southern 500, the Firecracker 400, or even the All-Star Race. Races of that caliber, or others on key weekends, such as Labor Day weekend, need to have a built-in rain date because of the possibility of it getting postponed. Not counting the Talladega races, the only big race that does not have a built-in rain date is the Daytona 500, and that finally caught up to NASCAR last year. And for years, the Daytona 500 had a rain date due to the President's Day holiday, but due to the date change made for 2012 (to accommodate a possible change in the Super Bowl date in the future), it no longer has that extra built-in day in the event of a rain out. Most of the races on the NASCAR circuit do not, by themselves, warrant a built-in rain date, but I believe the truly big ones do need that. In fact, this race coming up tonight, the one that decides the Chase field, also needed to use a rain date in 2008. I believe there's a reason that certain races are run on Saturdays, and that is they would have a built-in date in the event of a rain out. 117. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is anybody else getting "NASCAR Countdown"? All I'm getting is the local news. 118. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is anybody else getting "NASCAR Countdown"? All I'm getting is the local news. Consider yourself lucky. For real, NASCAR Countdown is on for me. 119. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should write down a schedule I would like to see and would get implemented if I ran NASCAR. One thing's for sure, too many cookie cutter tracks so I'll be cutting out (no pun intended) some of those and adding more road courses as I believe 2 is not nearly enough. The Chase should at least have one road course date, along with at least one race at every other type of track. The champion needs to be tested across all elements, and if they're not going to get rid of the Chase, that's the best alternative. 120. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys when do next years paint schemes start appearing, I have in my mind around charlotte chase race,am I right thanks 121. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "19. New Hampshire 300 (Sorry Avery, but this is the only race here.)" Oh murb, how considerate! In all honesty I'd be perfectly fine with just one Loudon race a year. It's never a hassle for me to get to the track but in one day I blow about $200 getting a scanner, program, apparel, die cast cars and I'm not even including tickets. Granted this is my fault for splurging, but I can't fathom Loudon not having a race... no matter how bad the racing may get. Now if I had three wishes for the new schedule it'd be; 1. A road race at COTA. Even on the shortened circuit. The owners are practically begging for more races there and so far between the f1 race, grand-am and V8 supercars, I'd say they've surpassed expectations. 2. Rockingham's return! (A stretch, but how sweet would it be?!) And 3. Just please give us more road races. Grant me that one wish Mr. France. Pleassse! 122. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also want to try crafting a schedule of when I have time. The two points I would center it around are reducing the number of tracks with multiple race dates and increasing the diversity of race track styles by including more short tracks and road courses. 123. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is anybody else getting "NASCAR Countdown"? All I'm getting is the local news" I heard a rumor we're on the verge of war. (I can go on about my opinion on it but im sure you don't wanna hear it) if I was Truex i'd find a Napa Auto Parts sticker to put on my cast! 124. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RCRandPenskeGuy, that's exactly the reason why I've always said that the Chase cheapens the value of the championship, because it's not a complete examination of all the skills of a driver and a team. For example, I'm not sure Jimmie Johnson could win more than three championships if all the races counted equally because the mistakes he would make during the season would actually cost him. For instance, I would estimate that he's lost close to 100 points this year due to his own mistakes, and that doesn't count what his teams goof-ups may have cost him. That's more than two full races worth of points he's cost himself. To win the championship going the distance, a driver and his team would have to be virtually mistake-free all the way, and Johnson and his team have been anything but that over the last 12 months, and it cost him the title last year, and if they don't tighten up their game, it's going to cost them the title again this year. That's why I say that Gordon's four titles mean more than Johnson's five, or that if Johnson does get to that magic mark of seven, it won't mean nearly as much as Petty's and Earnhardt's seven titles meant. Because they had to go the distance, while Johnson's titles were effectively 10-race championships. They're equally legitimate of course, but just don't carry the weight of those that won their titles going the distance. 125. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, I am talking about the Circuit of the Americas, the new F1 course. I thought it was in Houston. Bit I guess it is in Austin. Since that is where Ben Lowe lives, NASCAR will be required to have him in the commentary booth for at least 30 on air minutes giving his unfiltered opinions. 126. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't know if anyone caught it, but Childress just came up to Newman and said something and sort of patted him on the back. 127. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Don't know if anyone caught it, but Childress just came up to Newman and said something and sort of patted him on the back. " ...good luck? 128. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Frank Mazzoli Jr? isn't he that guy from Ca' Talk? 129. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "...good luck?" I'm sure it was something like that, but what I meant is that, for me, that was as good as official confirmation that Newman is going to RCR. 130. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here we go. The last race of the "regular season", if you will. 131. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Still don't understand how the Summer Daytona race on Sunday at 1pm differs from any other Sunday afternoon race. 132. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Rusty Wallace called Ryan Newman "one of the best drivers in the sport" and picked Brad to win this race? Could you show a LITTLE less bias toward Penske and ex-Penske drivers, please? As much as I hate Ray, he at least refrained from picking Jeff. Can't wait for these guys to lose their coverage... 133. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We're going green in just a few minutes. Man, I am a ball of nerves right now. Who knows what will happen tonight? 134. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, I didn't think Newman and Rusty got along at Penske. Why would he be showing bias in favor of someone he doesn't like? 135. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch decided not to be a hero in Lap 1, Turn 1 and Gordon gets the first bonus point of the night 136. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice start by Jeff Gordon. 137. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Denny and Joey are running together, perfect time to bring up their old feud for the thousandth time this year. 138. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) did they just say that if Kyle Busch wins this race he'll be the #1 seat in the points reset? 139. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "did they just say that if Kyle Busch wins this race he'll be the #1 seat in the points reset?" It would be his 5th win of the year, so he would have the same points as Kenseth, but likely would have the tie breaker and officially be the #1 seed. 140. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch reporting no forward bite in his #78 Chevy. 141. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman says overheating may be an issue for him. 142. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski to the lead. Could he possibly win and get a Wild Card? 143. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He'd need a lot of help, Schroeder. Where's Biffle? I missed him in MRN's rundown. 144. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's only one point behind Truex now and ahead of Newman, but the problem for him is that his teammate is falling back and in serious danger of falling out of the top 10 (Logano's probably in little danger of missing the chase, though...) 145. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Gordon doesn't have the best long run car. 146. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Omg, do I dare get my hopes up? Of course I do. Because that is what I do, I hope and I hope. I usually wind up getting brutalized emotionally for it, and I will again tonight. But I hope. Imagine the best. Kurt is coming. If I were Brad I'd let him go. That team has issues putting a full race together. 147. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Man, Gordon's car is fading big time. 148. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright Alan, cut the chain. 149. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would like to see both Penske cars out of the top 10, so they can concentrate on the Nationwide owner's championship instead. Even though I like cupdriver-Brad and Logano (can't believe I say this) really deserves it. 150. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Kurt to the lead. 151. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Man, Gordon's car is fading big time." I refuse to worry. At least they have put full races together, unlike the #78 team. 152. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The ultimate mind f*** would be for this race to go caution free. I know it won't happen, but what a cluster that would cause. 153. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Oh yay, and as our American friends go to commercial, European coverage returns to the 37th placed car's rooftop. 154. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson has just been lapped. 155. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad, just ride in 2nd and wait for that 78 to do their deal. 156. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano has fallen so far behind Gordon's now passed him even though Gordon is also falling behind. Which is bad news for Brad... 157. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Way to step it up, Joey. 158. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The ultimate mind f*** would be for this race to go caution free. I know it won't happen, but what a cluster that would cause." Knowing NASCAR, that may not happen in a LONG time, sadly. 159. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Biffle's actually running pretty good tonight. 160. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jimmie Johnson has just been lapped." The fact that seemingly no one else noticed this shows you just how compelling this Wild-Card battle is. 161. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff lapped Jimmie. Enjoy that one Rainbow Nation. Brad fading. Tire to blow soon. Worst championship defense ever. 162. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Knowing NASCAR, that may not happen in a LONG time, sadly." It almost happened last year at Sonoma. 163. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tires have dropped off nearly three seconds since the beginning of this run. I love it. 164. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon and Johnson must be running the same setup, as they are both crap on the long run. Johnson had made his way up to 25th but is now a lap down in 34th and the slowest car on track. 165. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano's about to get lapped. 166. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So many guys just look terrible out there. Logano, Gordon, Jimmie, Brad. I kind of WANT this thing to go caution free just to see what would happen. 167. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, Jimmie Johnson is like a rolling chicane out there. He just can't stay out of the way. 168. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Wise deserves a shout out, almost a quarter gone and he is riding in the 26th place ahead of the other backmarkers and the almighty #48. WTG. Meanwhile Capitan Jesus (can we bring back this nickname?) parked. 169. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 'Enjoy that one Rainbow Nation." I will, I will indeed. 170. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great run so far for Aric in the top ten. They've fallen off tremendously lately so that's nice to see. 171. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Nap-Time having another bad race? Why couldn't the chase have started three weeks ago? 172. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The first 100 laps of this race have been a throwback to the good days of NASCAR. 173. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Regan Smith screwed things up quite nicely. 174. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Indeed @172, I thought I'm gonna go to sleep when caution #1 flies, but now I feel like I'm watching a 1994 race, it's cool. 175. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This has been good racing so far! 176. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After the cycle of pit stops Brad got back in the lead. Also the #48 got busted for speeding on pit road, it's gonna be a long night for 'em. 177. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) LOL, Johnson sped. I said earlier this week that the thought that he's been struggling lately was ridiculous, but now I know that I was wrong, he's not even a factor. 178. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The 78 pit crew are the Charlotte Bobcats of Nascar pit crews. Jimmie sped on pit road. 179. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's in the chase at this second since he's passed both Truex and Newman in points and Logano is ahead of Gordon. But I can't really imagine Brad winning this... I'll laugh if McMurray wins after the beginning of the race was dominated by those battling for the last chase positions... 180. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dos Jotas gets lapped then has a speeding penalty when he finally pits. With all that's happened the last 4 races, he's gonna win 6 of the chase races and clinch the title by Phoenix. Damn it! 181. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like this race so far, the leader leads for a while and then fades it will probably come down to "may the best man win" 182. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad back to the lead after pits 183. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know, this really does feel like an old school race. Awesome!!! 184. Brad posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another great run for Burton so far, up to 7th. What's going to happen to him this time? 185. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "it will probably come down to "may the best man win"" Those are the best kind of races. 186. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth randomly to the lead. 187. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope NASCAR lets this play out naturally. That doesn't benefit Brad cause his long run stuff is bad, but I wanna see it natural. 188. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually really hoping this race DOES go caution free. That would actually be pretty cool to see a caution free race. I probably just jinxed things, though... 189. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Good time to show the leaders...as they pass Danica for the umpteenth time. 190. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:33 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Dude, this race rules so far. Nascar, if you have any shred of dignity left in your organization, you will let this play out. 191. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I too hope this race plays out naturally. I know for sure I enjoy races more when that is the case. 192. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The chances are small (but far from impossible), but it would really be something if McMurray could win and make the Chase. 193. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Clint Bowyer passes Jimmie Johnson in points but never actually has the points lead due to the points being reset, does he make a sound? 194. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt got stuck behind the battling Fords of Ambrose and Gilliland for almost a lap. While you guys have to watch KFC's and AT&T's hilarity. 195. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was fun while it lasted. 196. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) caution for debris 197. We need more Onion posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) -.- 198. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR decides they've run green long enough and throws a BS caution. 199. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Debris?!? It better be half of a car. 200. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. 201. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) F*ck! 202. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good job NASCAR... not! So typical. 203. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And there it is..... Piss off NASCAR! 204. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And there's our "debris" caution. 205. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) the Debris was in turn 2 right? 206. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NESPN/ABC isn't even gonna show some marbles on the track to amuse us. 207. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DANMIT! I was just settling in. This caution saves Mark Martin's ass tho he was set to be lapped soon 208. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) If they want to manipulate the race like this, why didn't they do it when Logano was the lucky dog? I guess they want to help Gordon make the top ten... 209. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) NASCAR just can't stand it. The fans were having too much fun. And they wonder why attendance and ratings are down. 210. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's just a joke how they do this. Oh well. At least McMurray will be leading. 211. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) did this caution screw up Kurt? 212. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The Denver All-Stars shining once again. 213. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) McMurray wins the race out of the pits as Kurt Busch has a slow pit stop. 214. Mr X posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go McMurray! 215. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They must train in Denver and then have a hard time adjusting to the denser air at sea level, or something. 216. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt meltdown approaching? 217. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That caution was brutal. Brad and Jamie are essentially done no matter what they do here because Logano got trapped, which will PROBABLY ensure ultimately Gordon makes it. The timing of that caution (with Logano a lap down) pretty much killed a sizable percentage of the drama. But I guess having Gordon make it is more "marketable". Oh, given how many cautions NASCAR likes to have in its races, I'm sure Logano will get his lap back at some point. 218. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Johnson is running back with Yeley and Raines. Ouch. 219. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "But I guess having Gordon make it is more "marketable"." And it keeps this board happy. 220. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Gordon beats Logano for 10th straight up, fine. If he gets help, not fine. 221. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Johnson is running back with Yeley and Raines. Ouch." I'm shocked they're not showing the battle for 34th between he and Danica. 222. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "And it keeps this board happy." But that doesn't make race manipulation acceptable. 223. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I admit I'd be amused if Brad wins the race yet Joey falls to 11th to keep him out of the chase, particularly because Brad raised a stink to hire Joey as his teammate and Joey is letting him down big time. But frankly, Brad should never have been in this position in the first place. 224. Jim Davis posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It'll be interesting to see if Martin's coaching makes any impression on Patrick. 225. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But that doesn't make race manipulation acceptable." No, it doesn't. I didn't say it did. But you didn't say that I said it did, either. 226. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Note to DJ: Rusty won at Atlanta ONCE. In fact, you won there first. And it was the best driving you did in your career... 227. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Phoenix* ONCE Okay, so we both screwed up... 228. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, it doesn't. I didn't say it did. But you didn't say that I said it did, either. I didn't say that you said that I... my head hurts already. If the race stays green for a while again, then more cars will be trapped a lap down so Logano will have more positions available to gain. 229. Mike24 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (3) (3) Lmao at people who still insist nascar isn't run like wrestling 230. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's car is awful on long runs. Don't think he'll make the Chase if this race doesn't have a lot more cautions. 231. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This sucks... Jeff is one of the 2 or 3 slowest cars on the track right now. 232. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Hell, Joe Freaking Nemechek is faster. Refuse to Lose! 233. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Watching Gordon and Logano battle to see who can fail harder is suddenly no longer compelling. This is starting to be reminiscent of the 1991 and 2002 championship battles... 234. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Jeff continues to fade to be behind Joey in points AND if something happens to Newman or Truex AND if Brad can somehow do what he hasn't done all year he'll be in. Won't happen, too many ifs. 235. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't stick a fork in Jeff just yet, but without a few more cautions and some major adjustments to that car he definitely won't be making the chase. Meanwhile, Brad is driving the race of his career right now. 236. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "If Jeff continues to fade to be behind Joey in points AND if something happens to Newman or Truex AND if Brad can somehow do what he hasn't done all year he'll be in. Won't happen, too many ifs. " More ifs got Mayfield in the Chase in 2004. 237. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad's ahead of Newman and Truex in points where they are, and he has been for most of the race. This is all going to come down to whether Joey or Jeff chokes harder, and if Brad wins the race of course. 238. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If the race stays green for a while again, then more cars will be trapped a lap down so Logano will have more positions available to gain." Cancel this... it backfired because Logano can't keep pace. 239. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stremme spins. 240. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Stremme spins and the caution flag comes out. Well, at least this was a legit caution! 241. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Aric Almirola and Jeff Burton... like stealth agents 242. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) caution for David Stremme's spin 243. Anonomys posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution for Stremme spinning. 244. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Horrible break for Brad. 245. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:12 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) David Stremme is rolling debris. It will be interesting to see if Cole Whitt can do any better in that car. 246. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Brad lapped Joey a 2nd time. It was not in his best interest do that because Joey could have gambled on a wave-around. Now it wouldn't do him any good. Of course, at this point, Brad might be able to pass both of them ON POINTS. 247. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stremme spins. 248. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch wins the race out of the pits. 249. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt finally gets a good pit stop. 250. Anonomys posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch wins the race off pit road. Well done by the little team that could. 251. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Incredibly, the Colorejects got Kurt out first! 252. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It was at about this point of the race last year that Jeff and Alan came together to make one of the most epic NASCAR charges of the current era. 253. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Excellent pit stop by the #78 crew, they redeemed themselves. 254. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That last radio transmission between Kurt and his team must have motivated them big time (I'm stating the obvious here, probably). 255. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was at about this point of the race last year that Jeff and Alan came together to make one of the most epic NASCAR charges of the current era." Not seeing it this time. Kurt and Brad are the drivers really stepping up today. I'd say this is probably one of the best races Kurt has ever driven in fact... 256. WinstonCup4Ever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If anyone has FOX SPORTS 2, the ARCA race is on now. 257. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is the pit stall closest to pit entrance not considered a prime stall at Richmond as it is at most tracks? I noticed Danica somehow got that one. I guess there's a higher risk of hitting a car at exit due to the narrowness (for frontrunners, at least; Danica obviously won't have to worry about that being among the last in). 258. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Burton continuing to show that he can still be competitive. 48 on pit road, going even more laps down. 259. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell yeah, Jeff Burton! Go Mayor! 260. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson FINALLY gave up the points lead? Yesssssssss!!!! 261. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon off the pace. 262. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff's in trouble. 263. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Gordon's Chase chances=over 264. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 265. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon and Johnson must be driving identical cars this race... they both dropped off horribly mid-run, and now they've had severe handling problems just laps apart. 266. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jeff Gordon The Peyton Manning of NASCAR. 267. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jimmie Johnson FINALLY gave up the points lead? Yesssssssss!!!" Doesn't matter. Since the Chase started, he's never had the traditional points lead after Richmond. I was really hoping for some Karma this year after how the likes of Gordon and Harvick got screwed by the points reset. 268. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a horrible year for those of us on this board. 269. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 24 pit crew = 78 pit crew 270. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon The Peyton Manning of NASCAR." Come on, he has 4 championships... if you want to compare a NASCAR driver to Peyton then MAYBE you could say Mark Martin, but at least Peyton could win one championship. 271. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On second thought, this may not be over for Jeff.... Good call by Jeff, it indeed was a loose wheel. 272. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dash it all. What exactly happened to Jeff? 273. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dash it all. What exactly happened to Jeff?" Loose wheel. 274. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @David He had a loose right front wheel 275. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, there's always next year! 276. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) NASCAR should just cancel the rest of the 2013 schedule and all of the 2014 schedule until they find a way to improve the racing. 277. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wouldn't nail the coffin on Jeff's chase hopes just yet, anything can happen. 278. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All the air in my room just...foomp! It's gone. Refuse. To. Lose. 279. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "until they find a way to improve the racing" This is code for "until Gordon, Gustafson, and crew find a way to become more consistent, competitive, and make fewer mistakes." 280. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the NFL didn't have playoffs, Peyton would have about 4 championships. That is actually a good comparison. Each has had a transcendant career in the first 4/5 of their seasons and a noticeable dropoff in the end. 281. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hope Penske doesn't park Joey at some point as 'insurance' for Brad if he doesn't win. 282. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They're aint going to be a next year because Gordon is going to wallow in mediocrity for the rest of his career. 283. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This is code for "until Gordon, Gustafson, and crew find a way to become more consistent, competitive, and make fewer mistakes."" Ben Lowe isn't exactly a big Gordon fan, so I doubt that. 284. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) No NLA I think Gordon's days of being competitive are through he should just hang up the helmet and retire. 285. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ben Lowe isn't exactly a big Gordon fan, so I doubt that." If that's true then I made a bad judgement. My mistake, and my apologies. 286. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Gordon has a few wins left in him, but not many. I won't start saying it's time for him to retire with Martin, Burton, and B. Labonte still out there though... I must admit Burton's shocking me tonight though. 287. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Please NASCAR, let this play itself out. This could be epic. 288. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's still competitive, just not at the level that's come to be expected out of him as a result of his long run of success. Speaking of Gordon, he's catching Vickers for the Lucky Dog position. 289. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad and Kurt are BOTH driving the best races of their career tonight. This is awesome stuff, even if the chase battle isn't as compelling as it was before Gordon's tire issue. 290. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) The first thing I want done is to get that piece of trash Jeff Gordon out of the sport because he has proven without a shadow of a doubt he doesn't have what it takes anymore. 291. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, he got by the future champion... wait for someone to spot debris! 292. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ben Lowe is cutting some hard promos right now it looks like. Kurt has the best long run car by far. 293. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Each has had a transcendant career in the first 4/5 of their seasons and a noticeable dropoff in the end." Leading the Broncos to a 13-3 record and throwing 7 TD's the other night...is a noticeable dropoff? Although I do agree with his struggles in the postseason. Jeff Gordon still has a shot at this. Currently 10 points out of the top-10. 294. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Battle for the lead between Kurt and Brad. 295. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also Lets have Danica Patrick Face Johanna Long in a loser leaves NASCAR 20 lap heat race at 5 Flags raceway. 296. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Called it. 297. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 298. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The first thing I want done is to get that piece of trash Jeff Gordon out of the sport because he has proven without a shadow of a doubt he doesn't have what it takes anymore." Are you cra...oh, skip it, you're too awesome. 299. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Debris for Jeff Gordon getting into the lucky dog spot. 300. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Fake caution. 301. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What did I say in post 271? 302. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I don't want Gordon to make it, because NASCAR seemingly wants him to. I'm not a big Brad fan, but HE is the one stepping up and the one who should make it. But if Kurt ends up beating Brad, I REALLY hope Penske doesn't park Joey. 303. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) And just as I say, bullshit caution. This does pull Jeff Gordon's butt out of the fire though. 304. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) lol, That was a 1998 caution. 305. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Whoever said NASCAR is like the WWE earlier, well they may have a case. 306. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) This sport would be better of being lead by circus clowns because the way it is being run is a complete joke. 307. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (3) (2) This debris caution was presented by Hendrickcars.com.... 308. Anonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gordon benefit caution 309. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) Somebody pressed the Hendrick Button again. This sport is a damn joke. More tainted success for Hendrick Motorsports. 310. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Also Lets have Danica Patrick Face Johanna Long in a loser leaves NASCAR 20 lap heat race at 5 Flags raceway." Under fair rules, Johanna Long would crush Danica, but this is NASCAR, so... 311. Mr X posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Even if this is a fake caution which I'm not sure it is as I just see a truck parked in the middle of the backstretch, I feel I have seen this movie before. 312. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention Bowyer just took the lead on pit stops. This is last year all over again. 313. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I dont think Penske would something as blatant as parking Joey, maybe a fake loose wheel or something like that 314. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Somebody pressed the Hendrick Button again. This sport is a damn joke. More tainted success for Hendrick Motorsports." It's funny how most drivers couldn't even buy a debris caution to help them out but the second a Hendrick driver needs one, they get one every single time. 315. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) This sport is going to hell. If you, as a fan, can't even respect what you are seeing on the track because the guys officiating think they are Vince McMahon. I hate what they have done to this sport. 316. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) No that's an insult to the WWE NASCAR is being run like WCW was during it's final years. 317. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Rick Hendrick is secretly calling the shots for NASCAR...or so it might seem. 318. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I suspected that NASCAR threw that caution at Pocono to help out Gordon only to have it blow up in their face with a legit caution, but tonight affirms that theory for me. 319. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "No that's an insult to the WWE NASCAR is being run like WCW was during it's final years." John "Vince Russo" Darby. 320. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I bet if Gordon somehow got back out front, NASCAR would have those sprinklers that came on during the spring race come on again and then call the race due to rain. 321. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The points situation now is totally chaotic. I'm wasting my time even trying to understand the different possible scenarios. 322. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Joey Logano has a mechanical problem, I'm turning the race off. That would be the only thing that could make this race uglier... 323. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) So let me get this straight...the first 25 races NASCAR is colluding against Gordon, now all of a sudden it's all a big conspiracy in his favor. You guys are funny... 324. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I have never claimed NASCAR was screwing Jeff Gordon except at Dover last year. But they arguably made up for that call at Pocono... 325. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I say we banish Brian France and the whole Incompetent NASCAR Leadership to Siberia 326. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) Now The Vulture is coming up. This race sucks, just like this season. And it is all NASCAR's fault. Theylet Hendrick basically buy the sport and implemented the Welfare rules which have benefitted The Vulture and Bowyer the most aside from HMS. 327. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "I say we banish Brian France and the whole Incompetent NASCAR Leadership to Siberia" You misspelled Syria. 328. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "So let me get this straight...the first 25 races NASCAR is colluding against Gordon, now all of a sudden it's all a big conspiracy in his favor. You guys are funny..." We try our best...but in all seriousness, Mr X said there was a truck parked in the back straightaway, so that may have been a legit caution. 329. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "So let me get this straight...the first 25 races NASCAR is colluding against Gordon" I don't remember people saying that Nascar was against him. Maybe you're thinking of all of the "Hendrick isn't giving him the good stuff" stuff. 330. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I say we kick out NASCAR's leaders and elect Ben Lowe as the new head of NASCAR. Things would get VERY interesting... 331. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Even Vince Russo couldn't script this better... Handing David Arquette the WCW World Heavyweight CHampionship - the same big gold belt legends like Ric Flair have worn was a downright joke. 332. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Harvick trying to dump Brad. 333. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick is losing patience with Keselowski, who is holding him, Kurt, and Burton up. 334. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I don't remember people saying that Nascar was against him. Maybe you're thinking of all of the "Hendrick isn't giving him the good stuff" stuff." Maybe so. I, for one, am enjoying this race. 335. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Suddenly, it's looking like a complete anticlimax. I don't think Brad has any shot at winning now, so it's now going to come down to Logano v. Gordon and Newman v. Truex. I'm rooting for Logano and Truex. 336. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's what I meant the cold wasteland of Siberia but now I have a better idea banish those imbeciles to the frozen vacuum of outer space. 337. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I swear, at moments like this, I never wanna watch another race ever again. I've been having these feelings more and more often. 338. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd like to see Clint Bowyer win, since he's the points leader now and Jimmie Johnson's race is pretty much done at this point. 339. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) I HATE the wrestling comparisons. Even if the cautions are fake the drivers are STILL competing against each other for real. And if you don't believe that, then you are so far lost in the world of conspiracy that there is no hope for you. 340. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad Keselowski with his best Kurt Busch impression folks. 341. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I swear, at moments like this, I never wanna watch another race ever again. I've been having these feelings more and more often." So....in other words, you'll be in front of your TV when they get to Chicago. Why is everybody being so hyperbolic tonight? 342. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer won't be the points leader because Kenseth will be leading due to having the most wins unless Kyle can come back and snatch a win from nowhere like he did last week. He can finish as low as 12th in this race and pass Johnson in the season-long points, however. 343. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's looking we're going to end up getting another Vulture win. Urgh. 344. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) By the way, Burton is still running 4th. Suck it, Childress. 345. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok NASCAR wheres the debris now? 346. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think I've usurped DSFF role as Raging lunatic of the RR Comment Board. 347. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Ok NASCAR wheres the debris now?" JPM is in the Lucky Dog position now, so they'd turn a blind eye to an engine block. 348. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I just noticed that Carl Edwards's car has Tony the Tiger on it lol... 349. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Vulture is now challenging for the lead. 350. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Maybe Anthony can lead NASCAR. Gordon would never lose a race for the rest of his career. 351. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Eventually I'm gonna have enough and not be in front of the tv one of these weeks. And where is the Brad K benefit caution like Jeff got? F*** you NASCAR. You have ruined the greatest sport in the world. 352. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I HATE the wrestling comparisons. Even if the cautions are fake the drivers are STILL competing against each other for real. And if you don't believe that, then you are so far lost in the world of conspiracy that there is no hope for you." Exactly! 353. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) It would be an incredibly ballsy move, but what if Keselowski pitted now? A caution would destroy him, but a green flag run to the finish may win it for him. 354. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here he is. 355. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "what if Keselowski pitted now? " It's really their ONLY option. They're certainly not winning as things are. As I type that, Keselowski's service is complete. 356. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Final green flag stops beginning now. 357. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If Anthony were in charge of NASCAR... ...oh man. I don't even want to THINK about that. Not only will Gordon win every race, Jimmie Johnson will be parked from every single race as well. 358. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson has a right front down, CAUTION. 359. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo What was Johnson even doing out there? 360. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Don't tell me Johnson did that on purpose for some reason... 361. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy crap! Is this "NASCAR: Jerry Springer Edition Night" or what? So many bleeped out radio conversations being played on air. I can only imagine if they played Kurt Busch's radio right now. 362. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bah Freaking Humbug!!! 363. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson brings out the caution. This changes everything... 364. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this changes most everything 365. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is now Kurt's (pit crew's) race to lose it looks like. 366. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bad break for Keselowski. I guess Johnson is finally getting back at him for last year's championship battle. 367. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Of course I don't think you can truly fix a race. I do not think races are 'scripted' and I wouldn't compare racing to wrestling in that sense. But I do think NASCAR can HELP ensure preferred outcomes and does. Even dating back to the '90s when Jimmy Spencer was allowed to win with an illegal car at both Daytona and Talladega in '94 and Dale Earnhardt got a special caution to get his lap back at Rockingham in '95. Were those guaranteed to help produce those outcomes? Of course not, but they did help. Do I think Johnson caused that caution on purpose to trap Brad a lap down? Of course not, but WHAT WAS JIMMIE DOING ON THE TRACK? He was a complete non-factor and having possibly the worst race of his career. Returning to the track was unsafe considering how unstable their car looked earlier and they shouldn't have tried it. 368. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Right now, if the standings were to stay the same, Joey Logano would finish inside the top 10 in points, Jeff Gordon would be outside the top 10 (and therefore miss the Chase), and the two wild-card spots would go to Kasey Kahne and Ryan Newman. 369. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Johnson crashes into the frontstretch wall -> Gordon gets the Lucky Dog Nope, nothing funny here. 370. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon gets the free pass. It's like NASCAR is trying to force him into the Chase! 371. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) LOL at Gordon getting another lucky dog. 372. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is unbelievable. 373. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Even when Johnson is a complete non factor he can ruin a race for me 374. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) NASCAR waited forever to throw the caution with the 24 on pit road even though the 48 was dropping debris everywhere. A damn joke. 375. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the 78 loses spots. What a surprise. 376. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) The Felon must have told Jimmie to put in the wall. 377. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why did they decide to show a reverse angle of pit road and no leaderboard off pit road on the FINAL STOP?!? 378. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I cannot believe any of this. 379. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) NASCAR waited for Jeff to throw that caution. 1995* 1996* 1997* 1998* 2001* 2006* 2007* 2008* 2009* 2010* 2013* 380. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What if Newman wins, Kahne gets the other wildcard and Gordon drives his way in? Joey Logano would probably vomit. 381. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Why did they decide to show a reverse angle of pit road and no leaderboard off pit road on the FINAL STOP?!?" It's BSPN. They excel are doing garbage like this. 382. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I have a question. Why on Earth was Jeff even called into the pits when it was obvious that a caution was going to come out. This was their golden opportunity because so many others would have been a lap or more down, and as usual, Alan Gustafson blew it, probably worse then he ever has. If Gordon had a crew chief that could actually call a race, he'd be back contending for wins. If you know a caution's going to come out on a short track, you MUST keep your driver on the track. But for some reason, Gustafson didn't, and Gordon may have lost his last chance to make the Chase due to his crew chief's continuing ineptitude at calling races. 383. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) NASCAR waited for Jeff to throw that caution. 1995* 1996* 1997* 1998* 2001* 2006* 2007* 2008* 2009* 2010* 2013* 384. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whew...this is getting crazy! 385. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) You know, if NASCAR had a real points system and only gave points to the top 25 positions (or gave the SAME NUMBER OF POINTS outside the top 25), crap like this or Edwards/Keselowski at Atlanta wouldn't happen. Cars that are damaged or far off the pace should NOT RETURN TO THE TRACK. Johnson had no business being out there. 386. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Seriously, am I the only one who is actually enjoying this? Y'all need to loosen up some. 387. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't look now, but Ricky Stenhouse and Mark Martin are both in the Top 10, and A.J. Allmendinger is running in 11th. 388. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Seriously, am I the only one who is actually enjoying this? Y'all need to loosen up some." You're definitely not the only one. This is the most intriguing race all year. 389. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Man I can't believe Biffle is doing as well as he is. I thought he'd drop out of the top-10 in points tonight. 390. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Seriously, am I the only one who is actually enjoying this? Y'all need to loosen up some." The first half of the race was great, but pure boredom is always better than artificial excitement. 391. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You know, if NASCAR had a real points system and only gave points to the top 25 positions (or gave the SAME NUMBER OF POINTS outside the top 25), crap like this or Edwards/Keselowski at Atlanta wouldn't happen. Cars that are damaged or far off the pace should NOT RETURN TO THE TRACK. Johnson had no business being out there." He's been officially in the Chase for the last 4 races. Regardless of the point system, he should've stayed in the garage. 392. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson is still on track 393. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Man I can't believe Biffle is doing as well as he is. I thought he'd drop out of the top-10 in points tonight." I know. I'm eating crow right now. I thought he'd be terrible. 394. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Under 40 laps to go and Jeff Gordon is ONE point behind Logano for a top-10 points position! Running P11. 395. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "pure boredom is always better than artificial excitement" Especially if you ask 83andJoe... 396. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "The first half of the race was great, but pure boredom is always better than artificial excitement." Speak for yourself. I'm of the belief that boredom is the most dangerous thing in the world. 397. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Jeff Gordon has benefited from two HIGHLY questionable situations that will probably push him into the Chase. It's kind of hard to fully enjoy the race (unless you're a Gordon fan) with that in mind. 398. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This for sure is a very poorly officiated race, but you have to admit that it's interesting to watch. 399. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK WTF, Newman might win and knock Logano out of the Chase! 400. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hell, I'm a Gordon fan and even I'm questioning NASCAR's officiating of this race. I'll be excited if Gordon makes it, but I would rather see him make it there WITHOUT the aid of questionable cautions. 401. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) C'mon Newman. Make this interesting. 402. The Long Shot posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Newman up to 2nd. Joey Logano is crapping his diapers right about now. 403. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Bile towards Gordon rising. Its been a pleasure watching him be a 10th place car for 5 of the last 6 seasons. 404. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Great first half of the race, VERY forgettable second half. 405. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon has benefited from two HIGHLY questionable situations that will probably push him into the Chase." If he's in, he's in. It's not like he caused them, anyway. 406. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) At this point, I want Truex to spin Gordon out, and I'm not usually like this... 407. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy crap. Newman might end up sneaking into the Chase. 408. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) It'll be hilarious if Newman wins. 409. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not even getting ABC (tonight of all nights!), so may I inquire how many laps are left? 410. jabber1990 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm of the belief that boredom is the most dangerous thing in the world. " FACT...I write a lot of stories, im also bored a lot and we all know what my stories are about 411. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 15 to go. 412. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "so may I inquire how many laps are left? " 16 413. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 15 laps to go, David. 414. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Go Newman! Make SHR look like the buffoons they are. 415. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Ryan 1 win per year Newman is getting ready to pull off an impossible drive into the Chase. And Wrecky Stenhouse Jr threw away a golden opportunity to get his first Top 10 416. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (8) This might be a candidate for worst race of 2013. 417. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Go Carl!, Brad hasnt a chance anymore thanks to the caution. 418. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan needs all of turn 2 and he hasn't been able to do it with lapped traffic. 419. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Newman is about to troll his way right into the Chase. 420. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman to the lead! 421. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Newman's got it. 422. JRacingFast posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) 416. Benjamin Lowe posted: "This might be a candidate for worst race of 2013. " Dude your f**kin high! this racing is great! 423. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks, all. RYAN NEWMAN HAS TAKEN THE LEAD. 424. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) f**k!! Damnit! 425. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Tony "Oh Shit, What Have We Done" Stewart 426. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never in my life did I think I would feel sorry for Joey Logano. 427. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy cow. BOTH Penske cars are in danger of missing the Chase. 428. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As bad as I want to see Carl win I'm rooting my ass off for Newman right now! This race is nuts 429. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This might be a candidate for worst race of 2013." Are you kiddin' me? 430. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Clint Menard? 431. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer spins. This is unbelievable. 432. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This will be interesting. I bet Keselowski stays out. 433. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AAAAGGHHHHHH!!! 434. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dammit, a caution! I wanted to see this race run green to the finish... 435. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Why Bowyer, why did you pick now to run out of talent? 436. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I was just about to say the only thing that could change the outcome would be if a couple of cars in front of Logano crash, and then Bowyer brings out a caution. 437. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Um, yikes! 438. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This finish is gonna be crazy! 439. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer got spun by somebody, might have been Almirola. 440. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Gotta love a track where the drivers pit with less than 10 laps to go with the championship on the line. 441. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) WooHoo! This race has pissed me off already so i dont care 442. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Is the racing great if you can't take it seriously? 443. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone stay out? 444. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Clint Menard" Oh wow you're right, that didn't even cross my mind 445. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint Menard, I like it. 446. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Paul Menard Empire must be happy right now. 447. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It would be a "hail mary", but the 2 team should have stayed out. They HAVE to win. 448. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race is just too much. If this restart is anything like April's we will be here till morning calculating the points 449. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This might be the most embarassing restart in Nascar history. 450. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is where I really hate the "waveraround." If another caution comes out, Logano can literally back his way into the Chase. 451. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looked like Edwards jumped the start. Will they do anything about it? 452. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) @Sean: No! This is not good racing. It isn't even racing. It is the WWF. This race has had everything I hate about Brian France's NASCAR. 453. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:38 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) CARL BEATS MENARD TO THE LINE 454. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards jumped that right? 455. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Yeah i think Brad should had gambled an stay out 456. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jolo made it! Take that, NASCAR! 457. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) Carl wins after he jumped the restart. Nascar is a joke sanctioning body. 458. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff is out. 459. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon missed the Chase by one point... Like I said, ah well, there's always next year! 460. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I spent the whole race defending it, but that ending was bull shit. 461. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes, Edwards DEFINITELY jumped that last restart. Of course they won't penalize him... 462. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano just barely squeaked in, shutting out Gordon and Brad K. 463. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl definitely should not be credited with the win given all the restart controversies this season, and that was a blatant jump. Maybe the officials didn't think it was possible Menard was leading? 464. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Huge call, or lack thereof, on NASCAR. If Carl was penalized, Gordon would have effectively moved up an additional position on Edwards. 465. Peter posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Backflip like a boss...... 466. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (3) (2) What a joke of a race. Glad NASCAR gets it stuck to them failing their obvious objective tonight. 467. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Out 468. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) So Truex gets into the Chase via a 2nd place finish in Texas...which he was penalized 6 pts for being too low. 469. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Huge call, or lack thereof, on NASCAR. If Carl was penalized, Gordon would have effectively moved up an additional position on Edwards." It's irrelevant, Logano would have had the tiebreaker by virtue of his win. 470. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If they would have penalized Carl, wouldn't Newman be in instead of Truex? Happy for Truex as he gutted it out with a broken wrist, but WHAT f**kING BULLSHIT. 471. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've never been more confused. The race winner jumped the restart, and just when I thought driver a. And b. Were in the chase the fall out with two laps left. Brutal but gripping. 472. epzik8 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is all too much for me to take in! Right now I'm feeling sort of a mix of anger, shock and happiness. 473. Bronco posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Big Carl fan here, but that was bogus. 474. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Total BS no call on Edwards blatantly accelerating forward. Heartbreak for Newman. 475. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I want an explanation on the restart. 476. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "If they would have penalized Carl, wouldn't Newman be in instead of Truex?" Why wouldn't they have both gained a position? 477. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Clint Menard...Clint Menard. Truex owes him big time. 478. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My question is, will Gordon be Hendrick's official R&D car now that he missed the Chase? 479. Peter posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (4) (3) Everyone shut up, lets all rejoice that Kurt Busch made the chase 480. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is bullshit. It's like they didn't even review that restart because they were too concerned about the Wild Card stuff. 481. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didnt even see the restart so i will wait til i see a replay 482. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This is really PISSING ME OFF. If Regan Smith didn't win at Talladega in 2008, then Carl didn't win this race. 483. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Between the Pierre Debris, winners of the race jumping restarts, and the total horseshit Nascar welfare system of the wave-around, this is race exhibit A why 2013 is terrible. 484. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, Jeff missed. C'est la guerre... Did Kurt make it? 485. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) At least Brad was the leader last night, Carl clearly beat Menard to the line. Nice to see Kurt and the #78 team get in, sure they won't win the championship but for a single car team just making the chase is huge. All they need now is to get a win. 486. DB1995 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Why rejoice Kurt Busch making te chase? 487. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Entertaining race for sure, but look at all the illegitimacy: "Debris" caution that benefits Gordon Johnson crashes into frontstretch wall while Gordon is in lucky dog spot Bowyer spins while Truex was in position to miss chase as Newman was leading Edwards jumps restart, isn't forced to surrender position I hope Jimmie Johnson, the self-appointed ambassador of restarts, has something to say about this one. 488. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What an insane finish. Heartbreak for Gordon and Newman. 489. RaceFanX posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The finish was nutty but that's the most fun I've had watching a NASCAR Cup race in quite a while. Still chuckling that Budweiser's Kevin Harvick and Miller Lite's Brad Keselowski got into a door-banging battle for position in this race. 490. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "This is really PISSING ME OFF. If Regan Smith didn't win at Talladega in 2008, then Carl didn't win this race." -They had to make sure Tony Stewart kept his win streak intact -They had to make sure precious revenue source Toyota got another win to gain acceptance with the fans -They had to make sure a popular driver won because fans only go to the track to see their favorite drivers win -They had to make sure precious owner Joey Gibbs got another big win -They had to make sure precious sponsor Subway got a win Take your pick 491. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Edwards wasn't asked a single question about the final restart right? I want to make sure I didn't miss anything. 492. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I enjoyed watching the race as you never knew what was gonna happen next, but yes, this race was absolutely the All Star Race of Nascar Inconsistency and Shadiness. 493. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "the total horseshit Nascar welfare system of the wave-around" The wave-around is not horseshit. It's superior to having cars on the tail end of the lead lap. Joey Logano's wave-around made up for Jeff Gordon's lucky dogs. At least he caught a break... Those cautions where Gordon got the lucky dog and that final restart were horseshit, but the wave-around isn't. If there were fewer cautions like there should be, it would be used less often. 494. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Man...that was a great race and a really exciting finish. But I'm bumming really bad right now. Gordon missed it by one point because of Bowyer spinning. I guess Clint used up his shot at Gordon. Really got him when it hurt the most. Oh well, next year. 495. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Did Clint spin on purpose? 496. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Johnson crashes into frontstretch wall while Gordon is in lucky dog spot" Jeff was on pit road behind the leaders. He was only in the wildcard spot by virtue of the #1 pit box 497. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How did Gordon miss it Logano and Gordon finished in the same spots before and after the caution. 498. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Okay, they just showed the Bowyer spin again. Turns out he didn't get tapped. CLINT F****** MENARD. 499. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I honestly feel sorrier for Newman than Gordon. Gordon just didn't run well enough all night long to make it in. Newman basically got robbed by that last caution. How can you not feel for the guy? 500. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Shout out to D.J. telling it like it is and handing it to NASCAR. 501. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Logano took the wavearound and gained 3 positions in the final 3 laps (not sure how since he had old tires and surely the other cars a lap down pitted). 502. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "How did Gordon miss it Logano and Gordon finished in the same spots before and after the caution." Logano took a wavearound, which put him in front of a 2-lap down car he hadn't passed and he also passed a couple of 1-lap down cars on the track. 503. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Wow, even with all my ranting tonight, I didn't even think of Bowyer spinning for Truex. Pretty much what I was talking about mid-race when I feared that Penske would force Joey Logano to have a mechanical problem to help Brad. And I was TOTALLY rooting for Truex over Newman too. That bites. 504. TS1420 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Whatafinish! I'd like to say congrats to Carl, but that last restart seemed like a robbery. Must be the theme of the weekend at Richmond, or nobody realized Paul Menard was actually leading. I don't get why the 39 team didn't take two tires. Ha-ha at NASCAR & Rick Hendrick. You tried your best to sneak Gordon into the chase and you came up short. Pretty good race. I give it a 8.5/10 505. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I have a few comments/questions - First, congrats to DJ on calling out NASCAR. I just gained a lot of respect for him as a NASCAR announcer. Also, whether he's loved or hated, give Kurt Busch and Furniture Row credit for making the Chase. That takes a special effort. 1) How does this race make NASCAR look good? A guy makes the chased based off of a tiebreaker he's credited with that failed tech. 2) Did Clint spin on purpose? You sure can't prove that, but NASCAR has always said they would look into "team orders." 3) Did NASCAR miss that final restart? If so, that could have really changed the out come of the Chase and the race. 506. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) There's no way in hell that Bowyer spin wasn't intentional. He just turned dead left off the corner. 507. Matt posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) This race was seriously FUBAR. Edwards shouldn't be in victory lane and that Bowyer spin looks fishy. Not to mention the 24 finding the 48's golden horseshoe. I REALLY hope there isn't this much bullshit in the Chase.... 508. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards ended up jumping over Johnson and Bowyer for the mythical 26-race points lead. And what did Jarrett say? I had already shut the race off in disgust... Disappointed in MWR. I was rooting for Truex so hard, but now I can't be happy about it. And somebody made an interesting point about him getting a 2nd place finish in a race he was penalized to win the tiebreaker, but I don't think there's a rule preventing that... Maybe there should be. 509. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) He will forever be known as Clint Menard. That was 2011 all over again. A spin to help your teammate. Dropkicking Jeff was just an added bonus for him. Actually I'm gonna take an RR poll right now. What should it permanently be? A) Clint Menard B) Clint Menarche Just type A or B 510. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So yeah, no Chase for Truex this year it looks like, barring a miracle run through Summer." Guess who said this? 511. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought Logano was in the same spot 22nd? I dont know this sucks. 512. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Well, looking at the replays, Dale Jr. did not get into Clint, therefore you have to believe that Bowyer did this to benefit teammate Truex and as a result ruin Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman's chances. 513. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Prediction: Dale Jarrett won't be commentating next season. 514. Kevin posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) As someone who listened to Clint's radio all night, I can say I'm 95% sure he spun on purpose. Pattie said some weird stuff like "I bet you're feeling hot in there right now" in a very weird voice. Then he spun. Also shady how both Vickers and Clint ended up behind Joey at the end which let Joey get back to 10th in points. Clint is my favorite driver, but man that wasn't right. 515. HappyHarvick47 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) NASCAR is a complete joke. 2 (maybe 3 if you include Keselowski beating Scott to the line on the restart before he jumped the last one) restarts that were illegal by the rulebook but don't get called. Ditch the restart zone and let the flagman start the race... 516. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It wasn't me, was it? Sounds like something I would say :D 517. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) So, Joey Logano, Martin Truex Jr., and Kasey Kahne. Who will win the Chase to the Bottom? Also, does anyone besides me think Jamie Little acts condescending to the drivers she interviews? 518. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was referring to post 510, BTW. 519. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I thought Logano was in the same spot 22nd? I dont know this sucks." He was running 25th for pretty much the last quarter of the race. 520. Kevin posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Nice way for Clint to get his revenge on Jeff though. 521. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Guess who said this?" Me at Phoenix? Yeah, I was wrong, but only because Michael Waltrip made Clint Bowyer spin out on purpose to benefit Truex. 522. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) awful call by NASCAR on that restart. Kurt Busch should of won this race and I say that as a Jimmy Fennig fan 523. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Also shady how both Vickers and Clint ended up behind Joey at the end which let Joey get back to 10th in points." You're right, I didn't notice that but Clint was a lead lap car and should not have lost 2 laps from a spin he recovered from. 524. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) Much like last night's race, I think NASCAR made the right call by not penalizing Carl Edwards. The only reason Edwards beat Paul Menard to the S/F line was because of how badly Menard spun his tires, two of which were worn. As a result, the outside line, which had been disadvantageous, ended up being an advantage when it counted most. Menard's problem bogged down the inside line, which in turn held Jeff Gordon back. The wave-around effectively decided who made the Chase, because if not for hat Gordon would have finished high enough to make it. But here's an interesting tidbit that you'll see in how the Chase reset would be using my system that I'll post Tuesday. Carl Edwards' win, combined with Jimmie Johnson's lost night, would give Edwards the point lead after this race, which in turn would cost Johnson three points in position seeding, and Edwards would pick up not only three points for winning the race, but would actually get the leader's seeding points. I will say this. If what Dale Jarrett said about Clint Bowyer's spin is true, then this is the second time that a driver has intentionally brought out a caution to benefit a teammate, which in turn cost the driver he had so many problems with last year, Jeff Gordon. I hope this wasn't planned, if Bowyer indeed spun out on is own, because if it was, there should be major ramifications (and would be if I was in charge). If what Jarrett said is true, this is the kind of thing that will bring this sport crashing down, I can promise you. As I said last week, there needs to be a high commissioner in NASCAR, much like Kenesaw Mountain Landis was for baseball (and Bowie Kuhn was in the 70s), Pete Rozelle in football, and David Stern in basketball. If this was intentional, this kind of thing needs to be stopped right now. 525. Anonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (12) Will you people stop dreaming up conspiracy theories, if you want to do that crap stop being a NASCAR fan put on a tinfoil hat and chase UFO's 526. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Actually I'm gonna take an RR poll right now. What should it permanently be? A) Clint Menard B) Clint Menarche" C. Menarche Waltrip. I'm not blaming Bowyer for doing what his boss says. 527. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) That innocent spin cost Clint Bowyer two laps. Coincidentally enough, Joey was two laps behind before Clint crashed. That just confirms that he spun on purpose. 528. Bronco posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Just happy that Keselowski missed the Chase despite leading the most laps. Even if he hadn't lost the 31 points during the season, I believe he would have tied on points with his teammate and lost the tiebreaker due to a lack of a win. 529. Cooper posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) Lol. People still watch NASCAR fix races? Huh. 530. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) If a non-controversial personality like Dale Jarrett publicly questions the final restart on-air, there is something wrong here. Congrats to Kurt Busch on winning and making the Chase. 531. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know how to feel about this race. On the one hand I'm glad that Kurt and Logano got in but am also bummed that Gordon Brad and Newman missed the cut AND am ticked that Carl got away with blatantly beating the leader to the line on the last restart(kudos to DJ for calling NASCAR out on that). NASCAR's officiating this weekend has been a total cluster#@$%. 532. Peter posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (4) (8) NASCAR fans = masters of whining 533. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "That innocent spin cost Clint Bowyer two laps. Coincidentally enough, Joey was two laps behind before Clint crashed. That just confirms that he spun on purpose." It wasn't to screw Jeff. It was as simple as Ryan Newman is going to win the race and Truex will be out. 534. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "Will you people stop dreaming up conspiracy theories, if you want to do that crap stop being a NASCAR fan put on a tinfoil hat and chase UFO's" Things that actually happened aren't theories. "Just happy that Keselowski missed the Chase despite leading the most laps. Even if he hadn't lost the 31 points during the season, I believe he would have tied on points with his teammate and lost the tiebreaker due to a lack of a win." I'm happy Keselowski missed because all he seems to care about is winning Nationwide races. Hope he has fun with the rest of those that he runs while finishing 13th-15th in Cup points. 535. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (3) (2) At least Jeff handled it well. I need a beer or ten and a pack of cigarettes. Any Gordon fans wanna join me. Jeff finished well. Hope for a win or two and solid Top ten finishes. 536. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Also, Brian Vickers last credited lap timed in at 34 seconds? Why was his last lap so slow? 537. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It wasn't to screw Jeff. It was as simple as Ryan Newman is going to win the race and Truex will be out." No, Logano was part of the equation too... if he missed the top 10, then Truex wouldn't have had a shot. You're right that it wasn't directly to screw Jeff, but there was more to it than just Newman leading. 538. Butch1469 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great race! 539. Critic posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (3) (3) If Michael Waltrip Racing wanted to intentionally bring out a caution, wouldn't it have been more logical for them to delegate that role to the 55 rather than Bowyer, for a host of reasons? Although I can't help but find "Michael Waltrip is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life," immediately producing a Bowyer spin a rather amusing thought, in light of some of the special assistance Gordon appeared to receive tonight. This type of speculation is completely baseless without evidence, of which we have none. But I'll also be provocative and say that I don't think any team in NASCAR would be above manipulating the result in such a situation, nor should they. 540. 83andJoe posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (5) (6) >I want an explanation on the restart. Menard spun his tires. But of course, everyone needs a reason to whine. >Clint Menard Bowyer, even if he didn't get hit by Junior, had the air taken off his car. But of course, everyone needs a reason to whine. Cheese for everyone, you all need it with all of that whine that's been broken open tonight. /Cheese Louise/, people. I watched a race, I ENJOYED a race. But if y'all want to continue to act like Youtube commenters, well, y'all have fun now, ya heah? 541. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Sean, he he essentially called bullshit on that restart, showing Carl beating Menard by almost a car length and then rhetorically asked Andy and Allen why he wasn't penalized. Ballsy move but he called it how it was, a jump of the restart. Also I like NLA's point. Truex jr. Failed post race tech, and was docked 6 points and funed like $25000 I think. It's cool to see him fight into the chase the gritty way he did, bad wrist and all. But his tiebreaker shouldn't have counted due to what I previously mentioned. This race went against all logic. 542. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) "I'm happy Keselowski missed because all he seems to care about is winning Nationwide races. Hope he has fun with the rest of those that he runs while finishing 13th-15th in Cup points." All those minor league races go towards the all "important" Nationwide owner's championship. Rodger Penske's legacy wouldn't be complete without it... 543. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) BTW It was ten years ago where Kevin Harvick got wrecked by Ricky Rudd and after the Race he confronted Rudd on Pit Road and had to be held back by NASCAR officials and members of his own crew good thing they did because Rudd might have kicked his rear end. 544. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) And guess which rookie scored his first top 10 of the year? 545. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) This type of speculation is completely baseless without evidence, of which we have none. But I'll also be provocative and say that I don't think any team in NASCAR would be above manipulating the result in such a situation, nor should they. First, Bowyer basically spun on the straightaway, all by himself. As if that wasn't fishy enough, he lost two laps? He didn't even hit anything. As if those aren't strange enough, Brian Vickers ran a 34 second lap on the final lap. Why? 546. 83andJoe posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) (Meanwhile, I'm setting the over/under on which lap Ty Dillon nails Chase Elliott at Iowa tomorrow at 30.) 547. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) And Jeff had 25 other races to make the chase. I'm disappointed too but honestly it is what it is. Just hope for a good finish to the season and a stronger season next year. There may be no way to actually prove if what Clint did was intentional or not. Hope not, good payback if it was. 548. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Mark My words: Kurt Busch and FRM will make the chase." Here's a prophetic Chase statement from all the way back to March. 549. Kevin posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Wow they did play the audio I heard earlier. Props to ESPN for that. 550. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also I like NLA's point. Truex jr. Failed post race tech, and was docked 6 points and funed like $25000 I think. It's cool to see him fight into the chase the gritty way he did, bad wrist and all. But his tiebreaker shouldn't have counted due to what I previously mentioned. " Thanks, but I never mentioned that. 551. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Am I the only one who doesn't buy Bowyer's "oh I musta blown a tire." Wow. Paul Menard pt. II 552. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Am I the only one who doesn't buy Bowyer's "oh I musta blown a tire." Wow. Paul Menard pt. II" No, you're not Sounds like Dale Jr. doesn't buy it either. 553. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) LOL at Jr. "Him spinning was the craziest thing I ever saw." Menarche Waltrip team orders. They played audio and video of it. Simple as that. 554. Rusty posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Bowyer clearly spun on team orders. But whatever, I'm happy that Kurt is in. 555. David posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm disappointed too but honestly it is what it is. Just hope for a good finish to the season and a stronger season next year." You're a good sport, Bon. 556. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Bro Jackson, you may now eat crow, lol. 557. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was the craziest thing I ever saw."-Dale Earnhardt Jr. I think that about sums it up. 558. AveryNH posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol. My bad, OldSchoolNascarDude1 deserves the proper reference 559. Matt G posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) For someone who asked above, you have to have Clint spin instead of Vickers because you needed to give Logano two positions. Bowyer could spin on purpose and then pit again to finish behind Logano while Vickers could just slow down. That both prevents Newman from winning and gets Logano into the top ten which Truex needed to happen because if Logano didn't finish ahead of Gordon the 22 and not the 56 would have gotten the second wild card. 560. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "...the craziest thing I ever saw." Really Junior? It's the craziest thing you ever saw? But he said Clint was really jerking the car all around and stuff.... 561. Bronco posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Looks like Dale Jr was also on to the stunt that Bowyer pulled. 562. Norman from Ohio posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Clint Bowyer, Bad Karma coming your way. #Chump 563. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Ben Lowe, The Rooster would have beaten the shit out of Harvick. It would have been beautiful. 564. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The ESPN guys seem quite somber about this. 565. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Rusty Wallace thinks it was on purpose too. 566. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (8) (0) Clint spun, lost two laps. Logano got the waveraound. After Logano took the waveraound, Vickers, who was only a single lap down, mysteriously didn't complete the last lap? Come on, guys, it is obvious. 567. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) LOL at the ESPN analysts in the "Quicken Loans" studio discussing the controversy that kept Newman in the Quicken Loans car out of the Chase. NASCAR seriously better do something about this. I won't lie and say I'll stop watching (I know I won't), but stunts like this seriously threaten the legitimacy of the sport. 568. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) When even ESPN is calling you out, I'd say you're guilty as charged. 569. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Avery, I'm not the proper credit. I'm not sure who said it, but I read it on here as soon as the race ended. 570. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) You know when Ray Evernham (one of the shadiest characters in Nascar history) says it was on purpose, it was on purpose. 571. joey2448 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Damn, ESPN doing some real pondering about this issue...Kudos to them, I guess, for not covering up a possible controversy. 572. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (9) (1) "Is your arm starting to hurt?" If that's not code for help your Napa-sponsored broken wrist teammate, I don't know what is. Pretty crazy how the in car video cut out right before the spin started and came back as the car was sliding sideways. Jr doesn't buy Clint Bowyer'S story, Dale Jarrett doesn't buy the BS, Rusty Wallace doesn't buy it, Ray Evernham doesn't buy it, even a former MWR partner in Brad Daugherty doesn't buy it. This coming from the worldwide leader in BS, BSPN's Pit Studeo 573. Rusty posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (7) (1) If it were any owner except Michael Waltrip, I'd be skeptical. But Waltrip has always been shady to me, this seems like something he'd totally do. I'm just disappointed that Clint Bowyer went along with it. 574. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (8) (0) BON GORDON, a classy guy like Jeff, who has seen t all in his career, would handle it well. Remember that he blew it at Pocono and Watkins Glen. I suspected when he lost that race at Pocono that it would come back to haunt him, but that crash at Watkins Glen ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back for him. But again, if Bowyer's spin, which was at the exact point on the track where Paul Menard spun two years ago, was intentional, and evidence of it is discovered, then those who committed the act should be penalized harshly and if I were commissioner, a lifetime banishment would be a definite possibility. This kind of thing can not be allowed to stand in any sport, and the harshest punishment possible can no be left off the table. At least Jamie Little asked Clint Bowyer the question about whether he spun intentionally. Of course, even if Clint did, he can't admit to it. And Jerry Punch is asking Dale, Jr. about that, and based on his comments, he thinks that Clint spun on purpose. And he was right behind Bowyer when that happened. In fact, he called it the "darndest thing he's ever seen". NASCAR had better look into this harder than they looked into the whole mess two years ago, which they hardly ever did, because this smacks at the very integrity of the sport. And add Rusty Wallace and Ray Evernham to those that say that Bowyer spun on purpose, and even Brad Daugherty, who played in the NBA during part of Stern's run as commissioner, called it "suspicious". This is the kind of thing that calls for a very serious investigation, extreme punishment, including possible lifetime bans, and most of all, a high commissioner that rules over the entire sport, because this is the second time in the last three years that this has kind of race fixing has happened, and it can not be allowed to stand, or the sport will lose what integrity it has left. 575. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) I thought it was very interesting to see Clint's eyes and reaction on that spin, that didn't look very typical to me. Just my 2 cents though. 576. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I'm not gonna say wither or not Clint Bowyer spun on purpose to bring out that last caution to help Truxe get in the chase, but with Dale Jr.(who was right behind him), and Nicole Brisco and the three stooges all stating how fishy that looked; it's pretty damning. 577. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Something else to keep in mind, Clint Bowyer and Paul Menard were teammates back in 2011. I disagree with everyone defending Bowyer's role in it while still calling out the team, Bowyer brought the idea with him 578. TonyStewartandKyleBuschFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But who are we kidding NASCAR won't do anything about bowyer 579. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) Just looked at Truex and Newman's finishes, Truex had 3 3rd places as well while Newman's best finish after Indy was a 4th. So even with the 2nd at Texas that was penalized, Truex would still have the tiebreak. 580. JRacingFast posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just a curious question does any one know the name of the song that was playing wen they previewed the chicago race?? It was epic 581. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Between the team audio, the in-car, the situation, and expert opinions, I seriously don't think there should be any doubt about what conspired here. I generally hate conspiracy theories, but it's not a theory when it happens right in front of you. In addition, I am actually happy with the 12 drivers who made the Chase, but I don't think this sort of crap should be allowed to stand. 582. Anonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I don't know how Nascar can possibly let the 15 and the 56 compete for the Championship after what just happened right there. They just screwed not one, but two drivers out of the Chase in as dirty of a fashion as you can possibly imagine. Nascar needs to crack down on this now before this is seen as acceptable. 583. Kyle posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) @579 Well Newman's best finish would be 3rd .... tonight 584. The Sound posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Johnson's wreck didn't help Gordon at all. In fact, it nearly screwed him over. Why pit if you know the 48 will cause a caution? 585. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Yeah, it really says something when the BSPN analysts, of ALL people, are calling out Clint on that BS move he pulled. I'm not at all mad that Gordon missed the Chase (if only he hadn't had problems at races he ran well at, like Texas or Charlotte, he would have been okay). I can graciously accept him missing the Chase and look forward to next year. It's not the end of my life, I can move on. But it seriously pisses me off knowing that someone did something THAT blatant to help their teammate, the drivers and even the commentators are calling him out for it...and NASCAR is almost certainly going to turn a blind eye and do jack-shit about it. And by doing so, they'll basically be setting a precedent and saying that it is OK to pull cheap moves like that to change the outcome of races and championships, and the sport as a whole will be cheapened even further. 586. Anonymous posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) NASCAR should consider removing Bowyer from the Chase as a penalty for intentionally altering the Chase field. 587. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Keep in mind Dale Jr. knows a thing or two about spinning out on purpose. 2004 at the daytime Bristol race. He had a tire going down and spun it around. He did it for his own benefit though. 588. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (8) (0) So it was Nicole Briscoe who asked Clint that question, and not Jamie Little. But KUDOS to whoever asked that question. But this needs to be seriously investigated, and those that took part in this should be suspended, at least for the rest of the year, if not for life. This kind of thing can not be allowed to happen, and it's now happened twice in three years, and it affected four drivers, Jeff Gordon, Joey Logano, Martin Truex, Jr., and Ryan Newman. But here's something interesting. The two drivers that got the shaft both either drive for, or are affiliated with Hendrick Motorsports. 589. Matt G posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) If I were Nascar, I would slam all three MWR teams with 100 point penalties for the stunt they pulled. This is even more series then a cheated up car. This is rigging an entire season. You can't let your product be tampered like this. If I'm Nascar I'm sending a message that this is the most unacceptable thing you can do. 590. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (4) (2) "NASCAR should consider removing Bowyer from the Chase as a penalty for intentionally altering the Chase field." I say take it a step or two further. The #15 and #56 teams should be stripped of all driver and owner points for the season, be barred from competing for the title this year, lose all purse money for the remainder of the season, and 1 year bans for team owners and crew chiefs. This whole thing is unacceptable, and this is coming from someone who is a big fan of Michael Waltrip as a driver, as well as (former) MWR driver Mark Martin 591. HappyHarvick47 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) Bowyer: "I think we had a tire going down or something" You can here the tire pop as he slides the car after spinning, just like any other spin. It's so embarrassing to be a NASCAR fan sometimes.... Atleast ESPN had the parts to.call NASCAR out 592. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) I give DJ credit for calling out Nascar and ESPN (which has more credibility than NASCAR, as shocking as that is) for showing the Bowyer in-car camera and streaming team radio and allowing fans to make up their own minds on the incident. 593. Gearhead77 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) How about a NCAA football style punishment for Michael Waltrip Racing? NASCAR should ban the MWR teams from competing in the Chase for the next two or three years the same way the NCAA can ban teams from competing in bowl games for violations. 594. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The more I think about it, the more disgusted I am. This is worse than Menard's spin in 2011. At least that one didn't screw somebody out of a championship opportunity. First of all, I'm happy for Truex. He's done a fantastic job driving with that broken wrist the past two weeks. He's driven his heart out. I'm glad to see him get rewarded somewhat for that, even though I wish it would have happened a different way. But what a joke Michael Waltrip is. Didn't they say that he was crying when they were about to interview Truex? If you knowingly scam one of your cars into the Chase, and then cry about it as if you've genuinely accomplished something, you are pathetic. I've pretty much lost most of my respect for MWR because of this episode. I'm not gonna berate Clint for it, just like how I never berated Paul Menard for it. They're just doing what their bosses tell them (or in this case, insinuate - it is painfully obvious that they were insinuating to Clint that he needed to bring out a caution for Truex). But as for MWR, I've basically lost all of the respect I had gained for them. I respected them for doing a great job of becoming a legit player in the sport after their awful entry. But now, they're just like Hendrick. 595. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) @579 Well Newman's best finish would be 3rd .... tonight Oh yeah, duh. I looked at the results pages for the drivers going into tonight. Then its 3-1 Truex 596. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yo HappyHarvick47, you know how easily those tires blow out during a spin? You ever see a driver go for a lazy slide after getting loose and come out without hitting something but 4 flat tires? 597. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Also, Brian Vickers last credited lap timed in at 34 seconds? Why was his last lap so slow?" As a result, Vickers fell to the last car on the lead lap over the final 3 laps. MWR you have some explaining to do. 598. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Well, @582, the only innocent bystander in this is Joey Logano. He benefitted from that much as Truex did, because he was also going to miss the Chase the way things were shaking down. But I don't think Truex should be penalized. He may have been a benefactor, but he and his team were, in no way, part of the conspiracy itself. But as long as you have a sport with three and four car teams, as well as nobody in charge willing to lay down the law, these kinds of things are going to continue to happen. 599. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) "Damn, ESPN doing some real pondering about this issue...Kudos to them, I guess, for not covering up a possible controversy." Lol, why not, ESPN must figure. They're ditching the rights so they want to start a fight...yeah that was a bad Don King/Muhammad Ali. Sorry. As for the 24 team, very disappointed for them. That final stop seemed to be the final nail in it. They just took too long on pit road, got shuffled out of the place they needed to be and couldn't get it back. Maybe JG can play Chase spoiler and nab a win or two. God I hope so, that or Edwards, Jr, SOMEBODY can keep the 48 at bay. If JJ opens any kind of lead, I'm watching NFL every Sunday and eschewing NASCAR until Daytona Speedweeks 2014. 600. Mannoroth posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (2) (7) Haha, enjoy that, Gordon. Now you know how Kyle Busch felt, when he missed the Chase last year. Maybe you did the right thing last year, because if Kyle was in the Chase, he would beat everybody expect Brad Keselowski thanks to 8 top 10 finishes, Clint Bowyer's fight with Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson's troubles. 601. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) After NASCAR was trying to help Gordon so blatantly, I'm not gonna cry about another team screwing Gordon over. Even though I felt he had no business in the chase whatsoever (and was rooting for Truex), I admit that Newman was screwed and can't support what Bowyer and Vickers did. If we really want to make it harder to execute team orders, let's DITCH THE CHASE! The separation between drivers over a 36-race season is usually large enough that you couldn't have much of an impact on an entire title chase even if you tried. Granted, some people are accusing Penske of doing the same stuff in IndyCar right now, but I actually think the Sonoma penalty against Scott Dixon was correct and Will Power at Baltimore was just a dumbass, not intentionally trying to help Helio. I believe both of those were just accidents. This, however, was clearly not. IndyCar did have one race where team orders of that nature clearly happened. Bryan Herta, who wasn't one of the fastest drivers but was extremely clean, spun out probably on purpose while his teammate Marco Andretti, who was leading, was attempting to stretch his fuel mileage at Sonoma, and the race ended under caution. And of course Formula One had Nelson Piquet, Jr. intentionally crash for Fernando Alonso to win a race, so this happens everywhere. Renault was harshly penalized for "Crashgate" with team owner Flavio Briatore being banned from the paddock. Andretti Green was not penalized at all for the Herta/Marco thing (because it was probably subtler than either of the other two cases), but I agree this should be sharply penalized. But I don't know if I want to see Bowyer disqualified from the chase if it bumps Gordon into it, because that opens ANOTHER can of worms. A 10-driver chase (simply locking the #15 and #56 into 11th and 12th or something?) That would be fine. 602. Frank posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @600 Why is it Gordon's fault that Busch quit on his team last year? 603. Sean posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But now, they're just like Hendrick." ALL the teams capable of winning are like that. That's one of the biggest problems with the present era of NASCAR. 604. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Lost in all of this...Ricky Stenhouse Jr. got a top 10 finish. 605. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I wouldn't ban Bowyer from being in the Chase, as he had already clinched his spot before any of this happened. I guess what I would do is just ban Michael Waltrip, Rob Kauffman, Ty Norris, Scott Miller, and any of the figureheads from all Nascar tracks and premises for an entire year. It clearly had to be one of their ideas, not the teams themselves. Seriously, how awesome would that be? No Michael Waltrip for an entire year!!! Or maybe even more depending on how long you want to ban them for. 606. Mannoroth posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) 602: What do you mean? Kyle didn't quit on his team, he had the best Chase ever, but thanks to Gordon he wasn't there. 607. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He was talking about the Richmond race last year, Mannoroth. Kyle basically gave up there and as a result, Gordon wound up making the Chase. 608. TonyStewartandKyleBuschFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't kyle say doesn't ******** matter or something like that 609. murb posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "ALL the teams capable of winning are like that. That's one of the biggest problems with the present era of NASCAR." I guess, but when it blatantly comes out like this I can't help but lose my respect for them. 610. RaceFanX posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Sponsor: #99 Carl Edwards- Kellogg's / Cheez-It This was Edwards' first win with the Kellogg's paint scheme. Nice to see Tony the Tiger back in victory lane for the first time since 2009 with Mark Martin (in addition to his GRREEAT! success with Terry Labonte and later Kyle Busch). 611. Bro Jackson posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Well I totally missed the mark on that prediction. Crow time. Now I need to make another one, but I don't know of any yet. 612. RaceFanX posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually... Sponsor: #99 Carl Edwards- Kellogg's Frosted Flakes / Cheez-It (It was more for Frosted Flakes than generic for the company) 613. BON GORDON posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) What do you guys think NASCAR will do? Will they even do anything at all? Unlike two years ago when Menard spun out no one really said anything and it was swept under the rug but not this time. Everyone on ESPN and some of the drivers called Clint out. I have no clue of NASCAR will do anything or not...and if so what? 614. 83andJoe posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #30 sponsor: Swan Energy (Lean1 was just an associate) #33 sponsor: Circle Sport #51 sponsor: SeaWatch International/1-800-SEA-CLAMS #95 sponsor: Crusader Staffing 615. Schroeder51 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm predicting they'll do the exact same thing they did with Menard a couple of years back. Sweep it under the rug and act like nothing happened. If NASCAR actually steps in and does anything, then I'll genuinely be amazed. 616. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) Rocket fuel in the gas Stealing the sway bar Clint Menarche MWR ladies and gentlemen, MWR. 617. WinstonCup4Ever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Let Waltripgate begin!!! 618. Sky Warrior posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) If the fan outcry is big enough, NASCAR will be forced to do something, just like with the 2 car tandem and double file restarts 619. JG24FanForever posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "At least Jeff handled it well. I need a beer or ten and a pack of cigarettes. Any Gordon fans wanna join me. Jeff finished well. Hope for a win or two and solid Top ten finishes." Great race for Gordon even if he didn't make the Chase. I'm drinking chocolate milk and watching the original Dawn of the Dead with 3 of my friends, and just dealing with it. It really isn't that big of a deal. 620. cjs3872 posted: 09.07.2013 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Murb, I would consider even banning Bowyer from the Chase (if not for longer), because it seems like he was as guilty as anyone else, while I would ban the others potentially for life. This can not be allowed to happen again. Remember what happened to the eight players that threw the World Series in 1919? Kenesaw Mountain Landis banned them for life as his first act as baseball's first commissioner in 1920, even though at least one of the banned players was actually found not guilty in a court of law. And Landis also banned other people that even had ties to gambling, even if baseball was not involved, because he knew that he could not afford to even let that creep back into the game. If I was the high commissioner of NASCAR, all the guilty parties would be thrown out for life if guilty, as they appear to be, if for no other reason then to send a message to anyone else, and while the driver would not be given a lifetime ban, he would be given a lengthy suspension himself (maybe about half a season). At least in Paul Menard's situation, he questioned what was going on, but then he did as told, and the same is true there. All the guilty parties then would have been thrown out with a lesser suspension for the driver, because this kind of thing can not be allowed to stand, and until a sever punishment is handed down, such as lifetime banishment, this is going to continue to happen and the integrity of the sport is going to be thrown into the garbage. 621. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Nascar's version of the Montreal Screwjob for WWF fans. 622. The Long Shot posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) I didn't see the incident, but this is what I think the penalties should be: Clint Bowyer: 100 point penalty, placed on probation until 12/31/2014 Rob Kauffman: 100 point penalty Brian Pattie: Suspended indefinitely Michael Waltrip: Suspended from track premises indefinitely (a.k.a. until Fox comes back on air in February), placed on indefinite probation Martin Truex Jr.: 25 point penalty Do these seem fair to you? 623. jabber1990 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "stealing the swaybar?" what did I miss? 624. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) I'm definitely with cjs here. If NASCAR doesn't do SOMETHING about this, they might as well just go ahead and hand the keys to the sport over to Vince McMahon, because NASCAR will be one step closer to being the WWE on wheels. 625. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) @613 I expect Nascar to do nothing, but as I said above I would slam all three MWR teams with 100 point penalties. This was a team wide scam and they needed multiple cars to pull it off. If MWR thinks they can manipulate the Chase alignment by taking one Chase car and making it two (for their team), Nascar should turn it around and make it zero. Nascar needs to protect it's product here. Teams can't be allowed to manipulate things this important. Knocking both MWR cars out of the Chase is the only penalty I see severe enough here. Or to put it another way, the 2 an the 22 were docked 25 points for what they did at Texas. I view what the MWR team did to be AT LEAST four times as serious! 626. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No JG24FANFOREVER I'm handling it great. Whether Bowyer meant to spin out or not it is what it is. Nothing will get Gordon in the chase. Hope for a good finish to the season. By the way Dawn of the Dead is a pretty good movie. 627. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (6) (0) All I want is to hear what Smoke has to say about it. 628. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Long Shot, shouldn't the #55 be docked a few owner's points too (EVER SO IMPORTANT ARE THEY) for sandbagging the last lap? I also think it should be a 50 point penalty for Truex. Without the help from Bowyer, he wouldn't even be in the Chase. 25 points still gives him a shot at contending for an upper half points finish with some luck, or more "help" from teammates even. Honestly, I'd like to see the entire MWR operation absent from Chicago as part of their penalty for tonight 629. FloridaFan88 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone know where one can find lap-by-lap times for each driver in a race. I want to confirm if Vickers' lap was actually 34 seconds. 630. Bro Jackson posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:07 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I hate the Chase for its high stress factor, but damn if it didn't make for an interesting night. 631. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (1) (3) Gordon became the last man in Cup series history to lead 8000 career short-track laps. No one will ever do it again. He also broke David Pearson's streak of 20 consecutive seasons with a Pole. He scored his 6th Pole and 13th front-row start at Richmond. He scored his 73rd career Pole and 141st career front-row start. He scored his 25th 8th place finish and 385th career Top 8. He now has at least 1 Pole and 12 Top 10's every year of his career. 632. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) The MWR Facebook page has dozens of people calling them out for their cheating, including their own fans, and about 3 diehard fans playing maximum damage control. If anyone goes to read the comments, mine is the one that simply says BLACK SOX a few times 633. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) #629 I've got NASCAR.com's Live Leaderboard open (I never closed it after the race) and it indeed says Vickers' final lap was 33.935 seconds, a full 10 seconds slower than anyone else's last lap. 634. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) @622 I don't even think that's severe enough for all parties involved. All three MWR teams need to be hammered because it was a team wide manipulation. 100 point penalties across the boards. The largest fines in Cup history. Suspensions indefinitely. I can not think of another Nascar Cup event where one team went so far out of it's way to manipulate something so important. The penalties need to reflect that. 635. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) All of the talk about Bowyer's spin will deflect enough attention away from that last restart that NASCAR won't do anything about it, either. In the NASCAR cementheads' way of thinking "it was only Paul Menard that got screwed, and nobody cares about him, do they"? Much the same way Regan Smith got screwed out of a win at Talladega because "hey, it's only Regan Smith...it's not like anybody cares about him". Star power, that's what it's about. Just like the NBA. Edwards > Menard and Stewart > Smith. It's NASCAR's version of the "Jordan Rules". 636. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The lap times for the final lap are visible on the NASCAR.com leaderboard. Vickers ran a 33.935, 10 seconds off what anyone else ran. Of course, ESPN/ABC didn't show anything concerning Vickers during their coverage, so we won't be able to know what course he actually took unless some fan there happened to be recording. But you certainly don't lose 10 seconds on a short track through normal driving. I hate to say it because I kind of like Vickers, but the #15 and #55 are both guilty here it seems. It's ironic, because the beneficiary of all of this is the most innocent of the whole team. 637. soupclan posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (2) (2) i'm not gonna sit here and argue about what happened tonight. (well maybe i will) I Think Clint did spin on purpose but thats just my un-biased opinion. but there are some things being said that are completely insane. 1) lots of you are saying nascar rigged the cautions to benefit jeff gordon. there is alot wrong with that theory: do we all forget that after the first 135 laps going caution free before a debris caution (where debris was never shown) benefited Gordon's chief rival tonight anf got joey lagano back on the lead lap at the time so how was nascar being biased to jeff gordon. then gordon raced his way back to 1 lap down but the next debris caution (again not shown benifits gordon and gets him back on lead lap. but at this point its a wash not a benifit or bias to jeff gordon. the best thoughis jimmie wrecking on purpose. If that were the case don't you think thatjeff gordon might not pit when he did. he was lucky thathe ended up the first car a lap down that time. 2) boywers spin: ok i personally think he did spin on purpose. i could be right or wrong. only ahandul of people know for sure. Butdoes it really benefit truex jr. think ofall the variables that could come into play. A) Newman could just have stayed out and tryto hold on for 3 laps and win. B) Newman could still win the race off pit road and win C) Truex Jr. couldhave a bad pit stop and lose more ground or could get a penalty D) Jeff Gordon couldhave a good pit stop and have moved up in the running order. It could have had the opposite affect in reality. but the right circumstances happened for this thing to work and thats why its a big deal. 3) The Restart: did menard spin his tires. If so then you can't penalize carl edwards because theres been precident for that. you can't punish someone because the leader spun his tires and didn't go. One way or another this is a product of the chase. it has as all talking and buzzing andin the end thats what nascar wants. thats why i don'tnecessarily like the chase. if there was no chase you realize jimmie johnson would only be a 2 time champion and jeff gordon would be a 6 time champion. but somehow jimmie is already better than gordon. give me a break. jimmie is a product of a corrupt owner. if jimmie was so damn good why could he only muster 1 nationwide series win. anyways i'm nowgettingoff track so i'llend it there (Can you tell i'm no fanof jimmie lol!!!) 638. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (2) (3) Assuming that MWR pulled a snow job, what on earth would Vickers going slow have done to help Truex? Since Vickers wasn't even on the lead lap and Truex was? Also, a lot of people /really/ need to take a chill pill. If you think this sort of thing hasn't been going on since the start of the sport, I have some bad news for you. 639. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:16 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) 3) The Restart: did menard spin his tires. If so then you can't penalize carl edwards because theres been precident for that. you can't punish someone because the leader spun his tires and didn't go. According to Jayski the 27 and 99 hit each other coming to the green as well. 640. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) > if jimmie was so damn good why could he only muster 1 nationwide series win. If Randy LaJoie was so bad why did he muster two Busch/nationwide championships? 641. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Assuming that MWR pulled a snow job, what on earth would Vickers going slow have done to help Truex? Since Vickers wasn't even on the lead lap and Truex was?" The argument is that Vickers was letting Logano pass him on the last lap to give him the 10th position over Gordon. Had Logano fallen out of the top ten, that would have prevented Truex from earning a transfer spot. 642. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Assuming that MWR pulled a snow job, what on earth would Vickers going slow have done to help Truex? Since Vickers wasn't even on the lead lap and Truex was?" Vickers gave Logano a position by slowing, which helped to solidify Logano's top 10 points position, which made a wild card for Truex possible. Same applies to Bowyer somehow losing 2 laps for a minor spin. 643. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ironic that Carl Edwards lost the 2012 spring Richmond race by being penalized for beating the leader to line, today he wins it by doing the same thing and NASCAR just ignoring it. 644. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) As far as Truex, Jr. getting some kind of penalty because of what his teammates did: why? Sure, he benefitted from what happened, but he wasn't the instigator. He didn't come on the radio and say "Hey Clint, you wanna spin out here so the 39 doesn't win this race, and so I can get into the Chase"? And if you DO want to penalize him, do it right: remove him from the Chase and put Newman in. No other point or monetary penalties. Just keep him from being able to contend for the title this year. That would be penalty enough. 645. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) With all the controversy, it seems most of us missed that Ricky Stenhouse finally earned his first Cup top 10. Credit goes to Zackary Shawn for being the first to point it out. 646. Kyle posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @638 So Logano makes the top 10 opening up a wildcard spot 647. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @638 Vickers had to slow down to let Logano beat Gordon for the 10th spot. If Gordon beat Logano, then Kahne and Logano would have been the two Wild Cards. MWR needed both Newman to not win the race (Clint spinning on purpose), AND Logano to beat Gordon (both the 15 and the 55 slowing down on the last lap) to get the 56 the second wild card. If Logano ends up 11th with a win and Gordon ends up tenth, Logano and NOT Truex Jr. gets the second Wild Card. 648. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "1) lots of you are saying nascar rigged the cautions to benefit jeff gordon. there is alot wrong with that theory: do we all forget that after the first 135 laps going caution free before a debris caution (where debris was never shown) benefited Gordon's chief rival tonight anf got joey lagano back on the lead lap at the time so how was nascar being biased to jeff gordon. then gordon raced his way back to 1 lap down but the next debris caution (again not shown benifits gordon and gets him back on lead lap. but at this point its a wash not a benifit or bias to jeff gordon. the best thoughis jimmie wrecking on purpose. If that were the case don't you think thatjeff gordon might not pit when he did. he was lucky thathe ended up the first car a lap down that time." No, the 1st caution gave David Gilliland the free pass and trapped Joey Logano a lap down, which benefited Gordon because he could still gain positions while Logano couldn't. The debris caution that gave Gordon his lap back was essentially bogus. As for the Johnson crash, I don't think that was intentional but the timing sure worked out for Gordon regardless. 649. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "If you think this sort of thing hasn't been going on since the start of the sport, I have some bad news for you." I don't deny it. But when you get blatantly caught live on television, something needs to be done about it. 650. The Long Shot posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Long Shot, shouldn't the #55 be docked a few owner's points too (EVER SO IMPORTANT ARE THEY) for sandbagging the last lap?" I didn't even know that Vickers had done that. "I also think it should be a 50 point penalty for Truex. Without the help from Bowyer, he wouldn't even be in the Chase. 25 points still gives him a shot at contending for an upper half points finish with some luck, or more "help" from teammates even." I meant: 25 point penalty for Truex PRIOR TO THE CHASE RESET, so that he doesn't qualify and Ryan Newman does. "100 point penalties across the boards. The largest fines in Cup history. Suspensions indefinitely. I can not think of another Nascar Cup event where one team went so far out of it's way to manipulate something so important. The penalties need to reflect that." I wouldn't be against the 15 team receiving a 100 point penalty, but I don't think the 56 and 55 teams should be punished quite as harshly. As for suspensions, perhaps the drivers should each be suspended for one race (considering they were merely following orders), the crew chiefs should be suspended for the entirety of this season and the 2014 season, and the owners (Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman) should be barred from track premises indefinitely. How about that? Does that seem more fair to you? 651. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) "If you think this sort of thing hasn't been going on since the start of the sport, I have some bad news for you." I don't deny it. But when you get blatantly caught live on television, something needs to be done about it."I don't deny it. But when you get blatantly caught live on television, something needs to be done about it." Sort of like how there's holding on every play in football, but if you do it blatantly and aggressively enough, you're gonna get called for it. Only holding probably hasn't ever costed anyone a chance at the Super Bowl. 652. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) As for the Edwards thing, I don't really care. It's just typical Nascar inconsistency. One time they'll penalize someone for doing it, the next they won't. I guess it does make up for Edwards getting screwed out of the Spring 2012 race here though. 653. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (15) (1) I'm glad Mark Martin got out of MWR a few weeks ago because I would hope someone with his high level of integrity wouldn't have participated in this conspiracy. 654. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) Perhaps the penalties for the 56 should be less, but not the 55. Slowing down to 33.9 seconds on the last lap was part of the scam needed to get the 56 in. Any team involved in that needs to get Nascar's version of being burned at the stake. Nothing is more serious than making the product a fraud, and if the MWR teams are not SLAMMED for this garbage, that's exactly what was allowed to happen. 655. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (3) "I'm glad Mark Martin got out of MWR a few weeks ago because I would hope someone with his high level of integrity wouldn't have participated in this conspiracy." That's a very interesting observation because Mark was actually scheduled to drive the #55 this week. This also makes the rush to put Vickers in the car appear somewhat questionable, as team leadership may have asked Martin about such a situation and he may have refused to participate. 656. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:35 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) Here's another point in the Bowyer/Truex/Vickers/MWR controversy, but why would Dale Earnhardt Jr. need to wreck into Clint Bowyer in that situation? By that point, all Junior needed to do was stay in that position and comfortably make the chase. Plus, he probably knew that Gordon, his teammate, would have made the chase if the race had stayed green, so he would not have tried to wreck Bowyer and mess things up for his teammate. Therefore, it's pretty obvious that Jr. did not cause that wreck, because then he would have been responsible for ruining his teammate's chase chances, which he didn't because Bowyer did. In my opinion, none of these kinds of things would happen if there was no chase, so there is another reason why I feel the chase should be done away with. And lastly, Michael Waltrip proves yet again that his pathetic racing career transferred over to his team-owning career. If this is the only way he can be successful, then he is making Rick Hendrick look like a saint. I say that the MWR team as a whole are disqualified for the rest of the year and fined at least $500,000 each. This is one of the worst forms of cheating I think I've ever seen. I really hope MWR never accomplishes great things as a team owner and karma comes around back to them. I also say that Waltrip should be fired from Fox, but then it sounds like I'm just doing a lot of wishful thinking. 657. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "With all the controversy, it seems most of us missed that Ricky Stenhouse finally earned his first Cup top 10. Credit goes to Zackary Shawn for being the first to point it out." Actually that's what I mentioned back in post #544. 658. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Actually that's what I mentioned back in post #544." Oops, sorry I missed that. 659. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Off topic but I've noticed that Dale Jarrett is definitely biased towards Gordon. I can just tell by the way he talks about him during the prerace and during the race. When Rusty Wallace first started on ESPN you could tell he was very much against Gordon. The last year or two Rusty seems to cut Gordon a little slack during the broadcasts. 660. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Jr. said he never hit Bowyer. Bowyer clearly spun himself in my opinion. 661. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:43 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "That's a very interesting observation because Mark was actually scheduled to drive the #55 this week. This also makes the rush to put Vickers in the car appear somewhat questionable, as team leadership may have asked Martin about such a situation and he may have refused to participate." I think that might be approaching the end of the real conspiracy and stepping into tin foil hat territory. That whole Stewart/Vickers/Martin/Bass Pro/Aaron's/Dollar General/Stewart-Haas/MWR/JGR/Chevrolet/Toyota deal that moved Mark to the #14 and Vickers to the #55 was so complex that I don't think throwing the angle of "Mark Martin won't help us cheat but Brian Vickers will but we don't want to look like JTG and screw over a popular veteran so we need to find him a ride" makes sense at all, that would take a level of planning ahead that neither Michael Waltrip nor Rob Kauffman's piles of cash could come up with 662. Matt posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) haha im so biased cuz I love me some jeff burton. but he (except new hampshire and loudon) can NOT finish where he should this year. he sucked in 2012 but this year he has been great with no finishes. trying to laugh it off...... 663. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) First time Dale Jr has been sponsored by someone other than Budweiser, National Guard or AMP Energy/Diet Mountain Dew in the Cup series. 664. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "I think that might be approaching the end of the real conspiracy and stepping into tin foil hat territory. That whole Stewart/Vickers/Martin/Bass Pro/Aaron's/Dollar General/Stewart-Haas/MWR/JGR/Chevrolet/Toyota deal that moved Mark to the #14 and Vickers to the #55 was so complex that I don't think throwing the angle of "Mark Martin won't help us cheat but Brian Vickers will but we don't want to look like JTG and screw over a popular veteran so we need to find him a ride" makes sense at all, that would take a level of planning ahead that neither Michael Waltrip nor Rob Kauffman's piles of cash could come up with" Not saying I believe that but it is at least possible. At least, you can't put anything past MWR now. 665. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oops, sorry I missed that." That's ok. I just thought I'd point that out. Also if anybody has a chance I recommend going to the MWR Twitter page. Pretty much every reply is negative towards the team. 666. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:47 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) Brian Vickers, you can't drive 55....around Richmond 667. Quasar posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) "Another great run for Burton so far. What's going to happen to him this time?" > Well this time a caution came out after his green flag pit stop (was running 4th). The guy can't catch a break. Nice Top 10 for Stenhouse, he didn't run that well but a nice result nonetheless. And I'm not a big Newman fan but the guy got screwed, lost some respect for MWR today. 668. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Brian Vickers, you can't drive 55....around Richmond" I thought he'd run way better and possibly contend tonight, but I was wrong. Looks like the miraculous drives and the win he had earlier in the year were just a contract run. Since he's been announced as their full time driver, he's run like crap (10th at Atlanta was good , but a total pinball at Bristol and pretty terrible tonight). 669. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also if anybody has a chance I recommend going to the MWR Twitter page. Pretty much every reply is negative towards the team." When was the last time NASCAR Nation has ever been this unified about anything? 670. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) "Also if anybody has a chance I recommend going to the MWR Twitter page. Pretty much every reply is negative towards the team." Good, they deserve to be ripped for it, especially since the idiots running Nascar probably won't do a damn thing about this. 671. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops, nevermind about Vickers. I didn't realize he'd finished 4th at Bristol. My bad. I still think that he was on a bit of a contract run earlier in the year though. 672. AU_sceptic posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Props to Dale Jarrett for his comments. NASCAR is certainly entertaining and I like that, but I've long been turned off by the way things are run and what is considered "normal". But here's a question for all those who say there should be heavy penalties levied towards MWR (I should mention - I'm not disagreeing with you): What if instead of Bowyer spinning himself out, he intentionally wrecks another driver? Would that warrant a penalty, given that dumping another car is considered acceptable practice at a short track? 673. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:57 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) USA Today is running a story concerning the incident now... and wouldn't you know, John Darby believes Bowyer to be completely innocent and anyone who thinks otherwise to be unrealistic? " As questions swirled around Clint Bowyer's late-race spin at Richmond International Raceway on Saturday night ' an incident that altered the Chase for the Sprint Cup field with a caution ' NASCAR said it did not believe Bowyer did anything intentional. "Not at all," Sprint Cup Series director John Darby told USA TODAY Sports. "Although we watch it ' we make a point of mentioning it in the drivers' meeting and everything ' I don't think anybody realistically believes that was the case with the 15 car."" 674. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) ""Not at all," Sprint Cup Series director John Darby told USA TODAY Sports. "Although we watch it �?? we make a point of mentioning it in the drivers' meeting and everything �?? I don't think anybody realistically believes that was the case with the 15 car.""" Don't believe anybody believes that was the case? ARE YOU SERIOUS DARBY? 675. go watch a dirt race posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (2) (6) why do people continue to support this WWE type crap, hell this even makes F1 team orders look modest, blatant team orders and poorly officiated racing. If you want to support oval racing go to a sprint race or midgets, late models, even ARCA, DO NOT waste your time on ANY NASCAR series, they got to big for their britches and now they cannot handle a race like they used to, I am a fan going back to the old days, hell I just reviewed some races from 1988, this series is a complete joke now. I cannot believe I am saying this as a 25 year fan of North American Motorsports, but I truly look forward to Indy and especially F1 races more than Cup, Busch or Truck races. 676. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Also, Michael apparently told Martin, "You've got awesome teammates." 677. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:01 am Rate this comment: (3) (2) This is what will happen: The sun will rise in the east tomorrow, nothing will be done by NASCAR, the sky will be blue, we'll all watch the race at Chicago, and 30 years from now we'll class Rob Kaufmann with Carl Kiekhaefer and chuckle about "Bowyergate" like we do Smokey's 5/8th Scale Chevelle. 678. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (5) (1) Darby, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining outside!!! Bowyer spinning was enough to raise suspicion by itself, but the 15 and 55 slowing on the last couple of laps to let the 22 beat the 24 leaves no doubt at all about what happen. Nascar needs to grow a pair and address this situation. I don't even have a dog in this fight and I'm seething mad. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be a Gordon or Newman fan after watching the steaming hot pile of BS paly out! 679. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Just glad that ESPN examined both the final restart and the 15's spin, the FOX guys would have just ignored the whole thing. 680. Critic posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) The problem, as was seen with Renault at Singapore in Formula One, is that for an incontrovertible case to be made that would then allow the sanctioning body to take action, you need someone to come forward and admit their role in it. The radio communication and the nature of Bowyer's spin are compelling, but they are still circumstantial, and this is not like a technical infraction, or an instance of one driver clearly retaliating against another (except, I suppose, the poetic justice of Bowyer preventing Gordon from reaching the top-10 in points, if that incident at Phoenix is still relevant). As long as Bowyer is adamant that the spin was legitimate, NASCAR is not going to expel an entire team for something potentially, and I use that term in its loosest sense, subjective. It simply won't happen. The fact that Menard pulled an identical stunt in 2011 with no penalty at all also suggests that NASCAR has no interest in pursuing this issue. Moreover, while the Bowyer caution produced the sequence of events that gave Truex the wildcard spot, Logano still needed to overtake another car, Newman couldn't win the race, and Truex had to gain several positions to attain it; in Singapore, Renault brought Alonso onto pit road on lap twelve and then had Piquet lose control two laps later, which I think was more of a direct advantage. If the 55 slowing on the last lap is worthy of sanction, then logically no driver should ever be permitted to allow his team mate to lead a lap for the bonus points, because the principle is the same, assuming it is done in a manner that does not endanger anyone else. That is the real outrage about the decision that Bowyer and his team made tonight, as with Piquet at Singapore, Herta at Sonoma, and so on, something which really isn't being captured by the reactions here. If Michael Waltrip Racing had ordered Truex past Bowyer on the final lap to ensure that Truex claimed the final wildcard, or something of that nature, I would praise them for it and it would be completely brilliant -- but bringing out a caution flag is of a different magnitude entirely. I'm too jaded to object to team orders, but they shouldn't be orchestrated in a fashion that could harm the participant or a bystander, and that's what Bowyer should be answering for. In truth, the idea of attempting to affect a race to assist his team mate really isn't relevant to me. Even in NASCAR, which has tried to preserve an appearance of sanctity that most other forms of motor sport don't bother with, team orders, overt or implicit, take place. All of the speculation over who receives preference at Hendrick, for example, reveals an aspect of that. Ultimately, integrity of competition is not the same as purity of result. I think that NASCAR will take advantage of the off season to make adjustments to its regulations to try to prevent this type of conduct from happening again, which might serve as an implicit admission of what took place tonight, but no one has ever managed to eliminate this aspect of the sport; it can only be restricted, as Formula One found out at Germany in 2011. There is also the problem of credibility, in that NASCAR might not be the organization to be scolding anyone for tampering with the outcome of an event, which is probably why the Menard situation did not incite a response. Clearly most people here don't share my view, but I actually find it rather amusing. Ever since they introduced the Chase format, the concept of team orders has danced in the background of this race like a ghost, and I've always wondered which team would be willing to take it right to the edge. I don't think any of them are above such behavior, which is probably why I find most of the indignation here to be incredibly naive or dense. 681. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Not at all," Sprint Cup Series director John Darby told USA TODAY Sports. "Although we watch it �?? we make a point of mentioning it in the drivers' meeting and everything �?? I don't think anybody realistically believes that was the case with the 15 car."" In that case, I hope karma comes to bite them soon and they finish 11th and 12th in the chase. They don't deserve anything better than that. 682. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (6) (1) Why are there people saying that Martin Truex, Jr. should be penalized? He did absolutely nothing wrong. Sure he benefitted from the fixing of the race that was don by MWR, but he was not actually part of the mess himself. Joey Logano benefitted from it just as much as Truex did, because if not for Bowyer's spin, he would also have missed the Chase by virtue of Newman's second win. Are you guys going to penalize Logano as well? And Sky Warrior, I see that I'm not the only one that knows about the darkest chapter in the history of America sports. Yes, the Black Sox Scandal was what led to the first high commissioner in sports, and Kenesaw Mountain Landis saved the entire sport of baseball because of his actions in banning the eight members of the White Sox, and a similar thing has to be done to here protect the integrity of NASCAR. That's why I would ban the owner, the crew chief, the spotter, and team manager of the #15 car for life, and suspend Clint Bowyer for six months. Now what Brian Vickers apparently did was wrong, but it does not rise to the level of a suspendable offense by itself, because it does not have the effect on the competition as what Bowyer did. If that was the case, then Jeff Burton could have been in jeopardy of a suspension after slowing way down to let Tony Stewart pass him at Phoenix in the fall of 2011, which actually was the point by which Stewart won that championship. What Vickers did was wrong, and he would deserve a talking to, but it does not rise to the level of a suspendable offense on it's own. Now if he was told to slow down like that and he did, then the members of his team would be subject to a suspension, but not on the scale of the suspensions, or banishments that I would levy against the members of the #15 team. But the #56 team gets of without any punishment, since they are guilty of nothing but being he beneficiaries of he maleficence of the other teams involved. But what NASCAR needs is a Kenesaw Mountain Landis-type figure to restore the sport's credibility in situations like this, and they don't currently have it. Anything else that happened in the race, such as Carl Edwards' controversial restart and the officiating problems are secondary in this case. And one other thing. If I were commissioner and looked at the evidence, I would place the 24 and 39 teams in the Chase due to the maleficence that took place, particularly the 24 team, because they were jobbed. 683. AU_sceptic posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well said, Critic. Agree with you 100% on all that 684. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also overlooked...Denny Hamlin extended his streak of finishing 18th or worse to 12 races. 685. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) Also shameful for Bowyer to try and implicate the #88 in spinning him out. 686. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Bravo, Critic, thanks for putting it much better than I ever could. 687. Ace posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:29 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) I don't know if I've ever seen manipulation on the same level that MWR pulled tonight. NASCAR really needs to make it clear that manipulating races will be met with extreme penalties. Their integrity is at stake on that issue alone. NASCAR did not have a good night all around but their integrity is the biggest issue. 688. JRacingFast posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:31 am Rate this comment: (6) (1) BREAKING NEWS!: ESPN FINALLY REALIZES DENNY HAMLIN INDEED FINALLY CANNOT MAKE THE CHASE>>>>> Producers and media members are shocked he wasnt able to rally fallowing his injury at California 689. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) But they're not going to, Ace. If John Darby's comments are to be believed, then this is a another case of it being swept under the rug, because they've apparently already have put this behind them. The problem is the inept "leadership" of guys like John Darby and Mike Helton. But this sport badly needs a high commissioner, and has for some time, because issues of integrity will destroy the sport. And you know they'll never go for that because a high commissioner will usurp their authority, and they'll never allow their power to be undercut. And I strongly disagree with what was written in post #680, because the evidence of race fixing is there, and it was there in 2011, but NASCAR decided to sweep it under the rug, as if it never happened. Somehow, it's fitting that the series next goes to Chicago, where the incident that spawned pro sports' first commissioner took place (the Black Sox Scandal), because this sport badly needs a commissioner right now to straighten out this mess. The evidence is there. NASCAR will not do anything about it, because it doesn't want to do anything about it. That was proven two years ago, and it's apparently being proven again, and this is something only a true high commissioner can deal with, because only such a person would have the authority to deal out the necessary punishment. 690. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:38 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) You know what? Critic is right. There's no case. The evidence is circumstantial, and the only way we'll know for sure is if someone from MWR comes forward and admits it. Sure, it seems pretty disgusting, but at this point, I really don't care. I've had it up to here with this season, and nothing that happens now will change my overall opinion of it. Jeff missed the Chase. I can't change that. As I said earlier, c'est la guerre. Good night. 691. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:41 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) My question for post 680...using phrases like "circumstantial evidence" seems to imply that NASCAR uses the same standard that a court of law uses when rendering penalties. They don't. In NASCAR, circumstantial evidence is enough to get you penalized. 692. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) The problem, CJS, is that - as Critic points out - there /is no smoking gun/, only circumstantial evidence. The evidence that MWR pulled a snow job is in the same category that I ate a hamburger from Sonic earlier: there's a Sonic bag in the trash and a hamburger wrapper inside it, but unless I tell you "I ate a hamburger" you can't prove I ate it. 693. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:44 am Rate this comment: (20) (4) Trying to cool down from this one, but I just keep getting madder and madder. Michael Waltrip is an absolute pile of trash. I HATE him with a passion. He has NOTHING positive to offer the sport behind the wheel, as an owner, and certainly in the broadcast booth, yet he sticks around and keeps himself as visible as possible. Why? Because nobody else on this decaying planet is more in love with themselves than Michael Waltrip. He is a parasite, a loser on the track, a loser in life, and a dirty businessman. And tonight he screwed two people doing what he does best: sticking his ugly nose where it doesn't belong (ownership) and screwing other innocent bystanders just so he can be a "presence". Michael Waltrip, you are a worthless human being. Now for the drivers. Everytime I start to almost start liking Clint Menarche he does something. And this was beyond inexuseable. Mind your own damn business. If your teammate isn't good enough to make the chase, that isn't your problem. You acted like a complete chump. And that is what you are, a complete chump. To have an obvious code saying ("must be getting hot in there"? Really? A damn joke) shows it had been planned just in case. To be a part of the planning and execution with the piece of trash Michael Waltrip shows your true colors. Loser. Now I don't feel a bit sorry for Gordon personally. He has benefitted from the dirty dealings of Hendrick as much as anyone along with Nap Time. But it is bullshit he fell out due to that, and NASCAR AB-SO-LUTELY needs to drop the hammer on MWR. Bowyer and Truex need to be kicked right out of the chase. I know Truex didn't do anything in this situation, but he agreed to drive for the piece of garbage Michael Waltrip. They need to be kicked out of the chase amd their teams docked ONE HUNDRED driver and owner points apiece. Each ream also needs a $500, 000 fine. Let's see how much longer Mr Kauffmann wants to be involved with the worthless waste of oxygen Michael Waltrip when that happens. Give those two spots to Gordon (gag me) and Newman (who will have some serious making up to do with his pit crew lol). And Brian Pattie, Michael Waltrip, Robert Kauffmann, and whoever MWR's director of competition is (Ty Norris? Scott Miller?) each need to be given 365 day suspensionsfrom any NASCAR sanctioned track, and each also needs $100, 000 fines of their own. But NASCAR themselves have a ton to do with this absolutely disgraceful night themselves. Their Hendrick bias is so damn obvious is makes me want to throw up. Throwing a caution for phantom debris two seconds before Mark was about to get lapped allowing the lucky dog to go to Gordon. Then, with the 48 dropping debris everywhere after blowing a tire and hitting the wall, the way they waited until Jeff could get off pit road and get another lucky dog was something that even Vince McMahon is embarrassed by. Brian France's NASCAR is nothing but a bunch of tools. And what about the 48 constantly failing inspection and getting no penalties, yet the 2 team got points penalties twice? Look, Brad and the 2 team don't deserve to be in the chase. The cars weren't fast enough or reliable enough and Brad wasn't focused enough. They don't deserve to be in the chase. BUT.... why weren't they given the same leeway the 48 was all year? Because The Felon Rick Hendrick jas NASCAR in his pocket. And it is bullshit. Everything that organization has ever accomplished has a cloud over it. And not penalizing Edwards for the restart was completely bogus. DJ said it best. But what would a diagraceful night with disgraceful chase participants crowned be without a disgraceful winner? Carl jumped, should have been penalized, and the win given to Kurt. Typical NASCAR. Enforcing the rules when they feel like it with no rhyme or reason. How can anybody feel good about any of this garbage? How can Truex look himself in the mirror knowing such dirty tactics got him in? I don't give a rats ass who wins the title. It will be tainted. This has been the worst season for NASCAR in a long long time. This once kick ass sport is moribund. This year, the races have sucked, the telecasts have sucked, this chase lineup sucks, the on track product has sucked, and the Gen 6 car is WORSE than the dreadful COT. This is your kingdom Brian France. How do you feel, you moron? How does it feel to be the king of a crumbling kingdom? How does it feel to be destroying everything your grandfather and father built from the ground up? To quote Metallica; Where's your crown King Nothing? 694. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:46 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I just wish Nascar would at least investigate it a little. Good god. Whether there is any irrefutable evidence or not, EVERYTHING about this seems fishy. 695. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) The problem, CJS, is that - as 83andJoe points out - there /is no smoking gun/, only circumstantial evidence. The evidence that MWR pulled a snow job is in the same category that I ordered my crew to put jet fuel (or a similar substance) in my car--it's there and my crew are the only ones who have had access to my car, but unless I tell you "I ordered jet fuel to be put in my car" you can't prove that I ordered it to be done. EVERYTHING is circumstantial evidence unless you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but that ISN'T the standard that NASCAR uses. 696. Cooper posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (3) (3) DSFF. Best comment all year by anyone on this site all year. Preach brother. Open your eyes people! The building is starting to crumble. This is a joke. NASCAR is a joke. It was once a sport that had an unlimited ceiling, now its a hot pile of trash. 697. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:51 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) Never thought I'd see DSFF say that about Gordon but I agree with his entire post. I'm getting more mad as the night goes on. At least kick Bowyer out. Gordon doesn't even need to be in it for me now but there needs to be some justice here. Ridiculous! 698. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:53 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) >I know Truex didn't do anything in this situation But we're gonna give him the death penalty anyway just because he's associated with MWR! Stay classy, DSFF. >the way they waited until Jeff could get off pit road ...were you even watching? They didn't. The caution lights were on while Jeff was still ~10 stalls short of his pit box. I wouldn't be so quick with the "phantom debris OMG HENDRIX HAX" cry either seeing as each debris caution had trucks go out to pick up stuff. (Also, the original "Menarche" thing was a hilarious case of not knowing a word, but your use of it here isn't very cool, bro.) 699. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:59 am Rate this comment: (12) (2) Circumstantial evidence? Ha! I wish I could post a picture of my ass on this site and say "here is your circumstantial evidence". Common sense? No other feasible explanation? But we need hard evidence? Are you related to John Darby (if so I wanna know if being so damn ugly runs in his family)? If you can't look at that deal and say "that was intentional dirty business" then I can't help you. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but can't walk up to you and say "I am a duck" then is it not a duck by reason of "circumstantial evidence"? John Darby is posting here under the name "Critic". 700. JRacingFast posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In other news this is David Stremmes last race in the Swan Racing #30.....Cole Whitt is slated to drive the car in 4 up coming races! Congrats to him! Also i had noticed right when the checkerd flag fell that Ricky Stenhouse jr got his first career top 10 finshing 10th...Congrats 701. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) DSFF, It is with great regret, that I could only like your post once. 702. Matt G posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, It is with great regret, that I could only like your post once. 703. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:14 am Rate this comment: (8) (1) I'll add that John Darby really talked down to the fans tonight. To summarize, he basically said that Clint isn't even considered to have been involved in the intentional wrecking scandal because he would have been the points leader. Really, John? What significance does that have? Also, as for penalties, I'm not really sure what should happen. Even though Truex wasn't directly involved in this, I'm sure he has to be penalized. Just think about it, drivers don't work on the cars, but are penalized drivers points when failing inspection. I think Waltrip, Pattie, etc. are the ones who should be hammered the most. Unfortunately, NASCAR may be making the ultimate PR blunder by trying to sweep this under the rug. I do think Martin Truex Jr. is telling the truth when he says he knew nothing about the caution or team orders. He had genuine emotion in his eyes after the race was over. As for Michael Waltrip, this is the same guy that had the most fake emotion/celebration ever after his illegal truck win in 2011. I think we all know he's as fake as they come. 704. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) The comments made on Clint's radio, his dramatic spin out of nowhere, Dal jr.'s comments, the ESPN group, and over half the fans believe that something fishy happened. Plenty enough for me. 705. Seyb32 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I'm Mike Helton, I slap Bowyer with a one-race suspension. That would pretty much ruin his slim chance of winning the title. I'd also tell him, "Hey, since you're so interested in helping the 56 make the Chase, let's take it one step further. We'll eliminate YOU Clint from the title picture to help strengthen the 56's title hopes." Of course, NASCAR would never do it. But if I were Newman I'd pop Clint Bowyer right on the nose in the garage at Chicago next week. Really hoping the 39 punts Bowyer sometime in the Chase. I really like(d) Clint Bowyer. He has personality - something lacking in sooooo many drivers this day and age. But he lost a fan tonight. There is no place for stunts like these in NASCAR. It's one of the most unprofessional things I've seen in sports, racing....both really. Absolutely sick for Newman. He DROVE his way into this Chase and a chicken shit move from a guy locked in cost him a Chase berth. To me, the best DRIVER didn't get the Wild Card tonight. Couple that with how disrespetful his departure from SHR has become and i admire him for not losing it. Danicant keeps a ride? You can't expand to a 4th team? Then you (Gene Haas) hire Kurt Busch? Come on. On a side note. Really pulling for Kurt Busch in the Chase. Him competing for a title considering where he was after the 2011 season and with THAT team would be so amazing. 706. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Just watched the Bowyer in car once again on YouTube. I have no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. If you're still unsure, just type in "Clint Bowyer spin", and it'll be the first thing that comes up. If you watch it and still give them benefit of the doubt, then I don't know what to tell you. 707. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) Sorry for my last post, most of it had already been discussed. As for possible penalties, I would do: Waltrip/Kauffman - One year suspension, five million dollar fine. Scott Miller- Suspended for rest of the season, one million dollar fine. Pattie/Johnston- Suspended for rest, 100,000 dollar fine. Vickers/Bowyer/Truex- Probation for rest of season, 50,000 dollar fine. I realize Truex may be innocent, but everyone deserves a slap on the wrist just to be consistent with the others. 708. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Also, I don't think NASCAR will do anything about this and this will really open "team orders" for interpretation for years to come. That's why I think it's up to the owners, drivers, media and fans to police the situation. I don't think intentionally wrecking should be in order, but everyone associated with MWR should never live this down. Eventually, the PR backlash may eventually be more than any type of penalty that NASCAR should issue. This team has lost respect from every demographic involved with NASCAR. 709. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:43 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) I wonder how 5 Hour Energy feels about this? They've already been cutting back their support this year to the point that MWR had to put Napa, Peak, and even RK Motors Charlotte on the #15 car in races that 5 Hour Energy was originally supposed to cover. This little stunt they pulled and the backlash that will follow from the fans might just lose them roughly 1/3 of their team's sponsorship. If that happens and Bowyer is out of a ride next season like the last major driver to be screwed by an energy drink (see: another one of the cheaters from tonight), that would be sweeter and more devastating than just about anything NASCAR would dish out as punishment. I don't normally hope guys lose rides or sponsors but Bowyer and MWR don't deserve that funding from 5 Hour Energy, and Bowyer doesn't deserve that ride. Here's to hoping he's start-and-parking for Phil Parsons next season. At least he'd have an owner with more integrity for the sport than the one he has now. Yeah, I went there. Phil Parsons has more integrity than all of MWR when it comes to the spirit of stock car racing 710. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:44 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) I can only imagine the shitstorm that would occur here were Bowyer or Truex to win the championship...or even worse, finish 1-2 in the championship. The comments section of the Ford 400 would probably EXPLODE in that scenario. That would be truly nightmarish to behold. Michael Waltrip Racing has had its' reputation permanently tarnished tonight. No one is ever going to be able to look at that organization or the people who drive for it in the same light again. Any ounce of respect I had for Michael Waltrip or Clint Bowyer has been ripped to shreds, urinated, and then defecated on, and I am definitely far from alone here. I really wish NASCAR would do something about this, because the LAST thing I want to see is people pulling BS moves like this to become a commonplace thing. It would pain me to see NASCAR reduced to having drivers intentionally spin out on a regular basis to help their teammates win major races, Chase berths, and championships. I'm genuinely afraid the sport may well end up going in that direction... 711. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guys, four NASCAR champions--Dale Jr., Carl, DJ, and Rusty--came out and said or implied it was intentional. I'm willing to take the word of four drivers who actually know what it's like to drive one of these things as pretty strong evidence. Not to mention Dale Jr. not only got a front row seat, but he himself actually intentionally spun at Bristol in 2004. Also, I don't consider Jr. to be a very technologically savvy guy, but if what he said was true, this could be proven using in race telemetry. 712. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And before someone comes along and corrects me about Dale Jr. and Carl being champions...I was including their Nationwide championships when I said that. 713. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) someone mentioned what if FOX covered this race, I actually think that would be great. It would be great to listen to DW try to defend Mikey on national TV for this one. and poor Larry Mac, on one hand NASCAR says no evidence of wrong doing, on the other hand it doesn't speak well of Goodyear that half way through tire runs guys are spinning out on there own. Larry Mac either throwing NASCAR or Goodyear under the bus. I wonder what impact that would have on the alignment of the solar system? 714. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:52 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) Also, Brad Keselowski and Kevin Harvick may not be finished yet. According to his Twitter page, Gil Martin, crew chief of Harvick's team, basically said that he was happy that a new champ would be crowned this season because the last one is a "tool." 715. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Guys, four NASCAR champions" Five, if you count Ray Evernham 716. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Five, if you count Ray Evernham" Well in that case we could make it six with Andy Petree. I don't know if he ever came out an overtly said he thought it was intentional, but he sure did imply it. 717. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Guys, four NASCAR champions--Dale Jr., Carl, DJ, and Rusty--came out and said or implied it was intentional." When did Carl Edwards imply it was intentional? 718. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) "When did Carl Edwards imply it was intentional?" In the media center they showed him the video and he raised his eyebrows and said, "That's going to be a popular video" and then left without further comment. 719. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:07 am Rate this comment: (6) (2) It keeps getting worse...there's a video of Bowyer essentially stopped on the end of pit road during the white flag lap. I just don't see how anybody can be on the other side of this argument. 720. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) ^^^For the record it may have not been the last lap, but it was definitely during the final 3 lap, green flag run. 721. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:13 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) Gordon may have been blatantly robbed of a spot in the Chase, but at least this gives him the opportunity to drive all-out for wins in the Chase. My disappointment over what happened is beginning to grow the more I think about it, but i'm gonna let DSFF voice my opinion on this one, since he's saying what everyone is thinking. 722. Anonomys posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "I say take it a step or two further. The #15 and #56 teams should be stripped of all driver and owner points for the season, be barred from competing for the title this year, lose all purse money for the remainder of the season, and 1 year bans for team owners and crew chiefs. This whole thing is unacceptable, and this is coming from someone who is a big fan of Michael Waltrip as a driver, as well as (former) MWR driver Mark Martin " I can take that even farther. -#15 team banned from racing full stop for the season -#56 team banned from racing full stop for the season -Clint Bowyer banned from racing for the season -Martin Truex, Jr. banned from racing for the season. -$1,000,000 fine for each team. -Brian Battie: indefinete suspension. 723. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:20 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) I'm hearing Bowyer was actually given a "tail end of the line" penalty for pitting too early, but instead of serving this penalty he served a pass through which most likely led to video I was talking about above. Why did he do this if he wasn't intentionally sandbagging? I mean I guess it's possible, since the evidence is only circumstantial ya know, that deep down inside Bowyer has philosophical objection to the penalty for pitting too early only being tail end of the line and he was self-imposing a harsher penalty on himself because of this philosophy. 724. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:24 am Rate this comment: (1) (6) It was possible to have respect for people here, mutual respect, once; this has now gotten worse than Youtube comments, and that's a crying shame as this board was once a place where you could have a comfortable and erudite conversation among fellow fans, but now has become a place where disagreeing with the mob that's calling for cruifixion results in your being personally attacked. Yes, it's pretty clear MWR pulled a fast one (or would that be a slow one?) tonight. But it's also blatantly obvious that this exact same thing has gone on since the start of the sport; saying that /now/ we have to throw every book ever published at them because it "occured on live television" is absurd. If it happened in a non-televised race would it not be as bad? How is one form of "manipulating the competition" - a deliberate spin - worthy of excommuication and calls for five million dollar fines (I would ask if you want to kill the team, but that'd be a rhetorical question, of course you do), whereas for all the years when a caution came out and the leader would stomp on the brakes to let his teammate(s) back on the lead lap, That's Racin? And I remember back when all of the hoopla over Menard's believed-deliberate spin occured, I don't think there were calls to have Childress kicked out of the sport then. But now, apparently, it's different, just because of who the team owner is. Yep, it stinks. But two wrongs don't make a right, and lining up with ropes to lynch people, including those who had nothing to do with it, doesn't help the problem. There's an old saying where I come from: "never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it". Alternatively, "don't argue with a skunk, the smell gets on you both and nobody can tell you apart." And so it goes here; the one great R-R discussion boards are now cesspools of bile and childish invective. And thus, as I have no wish to be associated with such things, I'm through; I'll still be contributing sponsor corrections and sending in short-track results from time to time (which reminds me, I need to get back to work on those ACT results), but as for the actual discussion? Maybe someday, if there's actual discussion to come back to instead of screaming tantrums and tinfoil-hattery. Alas, poor R-R discussion pages; I knew them, Horatio, pages of infinite jest and camaraderie. It was nice while it lasted. 725. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:35 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) Want to know what happened tonight that i'm certain 100% of you overlooked? Ricky Stenhouse Jr's first ever Top 10 finish with a 10th place finish. 726. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:36 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) Well, I have to go to bed now because my arm is starting to feel sore and it's getting hot in my apartment. 727. Scott. B posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:42 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) NASCAR will do their best to sweep this under the rug, ever though the crapstorm among fans and the media will be of epic proportions. The reason is simple. NASCAR is at the root qcause of it, by creating the Chase system that made it beneficial for MWR to execute team orders. Not only does Martn Truex, Jr get into the Chase via the shenanigans, but with the points reset, Bowyer loses nothing by taking a dive. Well, nothing but his self respect. By coming down hard on MWR, NASCAR would be owning up to the Chase being BS. 728. Critic posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:43 am Rate this comment: (5) (6) I thought the term circumstantial would've captured the idea I was trying to convey well enough, but since there is some discussion over it, I will attempt to be more explicit: NASCAR could never substantiate the radical penalties being dreamed up here (a five million dollar fine!) without something tangible. The radio communication and Bowyer's rather languid spin are telling, but any examination of the incident will de-evolve into Bowyer's assertion against NASCAR's, and if they are actually going to accuse someone of race manipulation, then they require a certainty that is not founded on intuition or inference alone. NASCAR is a lucrative corporate venture with a self-interest in protecting its participants to the greatest extent possible. When we are in the realm of on-track driver behavior -- rather than a technical issue, which is almost never debatable -- no one is going to be prohibited from participating, no matter the offense, without some evidence of premeditation or intention, because NASCAR has its own credibility to preserve. When NASCAR elects to penalize a driver for retaliating against another, it is normally because the response was transparent in some way; because this wasn't directed at anyone, it is not so definite. NASCAR's discipline process may not be comparable to our courts of law, but the type of action being proposed here might lead us to one if it's going to be making arbitrary judgments that result in a team being effectively eliminated. Remember, Earnhardt, Jr. only received a penalty for deliberately spinning out because he made the error of admitting it publicly. As for Michael Waltrip, given how his team is discussed here, I would've thought that he was only a name on its stationery -- now he has to be crucified, beyond whatever sanction NASCAR might apply, for his role in this infernal plot? You can't have it both ways. I'm just curious: what gradient of manipulation does everyone here find acceptable? When Neil Bonnett appeared at the final race in 1993 in the No. 31 as an insurance policy for Earnhardt, or when Hendrick did something similar with a fourth entry in 1995 because Gordon only had to finish ahead of a single car to win the championship, were those acceptable? Would either accomplishment have been tainted if they had to play their joker in the deck? At what point is the romanticism that so many of you want to protect compromised? From a certain perspective, lingering on the track after an accident trying to goad NASCAR into a caution is just as contemptible and dangerous as spinning out intentionally, isn't it? And here we return to one element that cannot be ignored, which is that Bowyer's spin was only successful because of NASCAR's willingness to show the caution, intent on an exciting finish irrespective of its artificiality. From my perspective, it is only Bowyer's bringing out the caution that is at issue here. The 55 and 15's behavior on the final restart is completely legitimate and defensible, as far as I'm concerned -- stopping on pit road is the place to do it, and the 55 clearly managed to drift away in a safe manner. If no other team was willing to do the same in Michael Waltrip Racing's position, it's their own problem. 699: John Darby is posting here under the name "Critic". I think the entire purpose of my post went completely over your head, which doesn't surprise me at all. As for John Darby, his position does not concern me in the slightest, as I think my contempt for NASCAR as an institution is rather plain. I doubt that anyone affiliated with NASCAR would have remembered exactly what took place in the Singaporean Grand Prix five years ago, which was the only recent event comparable to this one. If I wasn't attempting to make a serious argument, I might actually identify a certain masochism in those who constantly denounce NASCAR's illusory cautions but tolerate them with their continued viewership, then call for a team to be expelled when they have the temerity to try to bring one out on their own. I certainly don't approve, but my realism about this sport is evidently a rare quality here. 729. Critic posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:43 am Rate this comment: (1) (3) As for the person who apparently just watched a documentary on the White Sox or Kennesaw Mountain Landis and wants to keep reminding us of this fact, you are aware that the scandal was so threatening to the league not because Chicago permitted Cincinnati to win, but their motivation, which involved gambling and personal self-enrichment, correct? That does not apply here in any sense. 730. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:48 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) "It was possible to have respect for people here, mutual respect, once; this has now gotten worse than Youtube comments, and that's a crying shame as this board was once a place where you could have a comfortable and erudite conversation among fellow fans, but now has become a place where disagreeing with the mob that's calling for cruifixion results in your being personally attacked." Wow. -1. It is STILL possible to have respect for people on here. I feel pretty confident in saying that every one of the regulars on here has respect for each other in some shape or form. -2. You can't be serious when you say that this is worse than YouTube comments. -3. 9 times out of 10, all of the conversations on here are comfortable and erudite. -4. Who here tonight personally attacked anybody for disagreeing with them? (Okay, maybe a couple of snarky comments, but I highly doubt they were anything but heat of the moment things, considering who they came from.) Look, I know you'll probably say that I'm whining right here, but this season for the most part has been GARBAGE in a lot of people's opinions. That's why there's been so much conflict this year. It's nothing personal when people disagree like you are making it out to be. It's just people venting about it. It isn't fun to see our favorite sport go down the drain. For those of us who see the sport in this fashion, most of us need to vent about it. That's what we use this board is for sometimes. 83andJoe, I have tremendous respect for you. You've been here for a long time. But I'm gonna use an analogy that someone used recently here on the comments. You're making a mountain out of a molehill in this situation. Yes, there have been more conflicts than usual this year. Yes, they have gotten ugly at times. But it's not nearly in as bad a shape as you are insinuating. I feel like I can wholeheartedly say that all of the regulars on here care about this place, and that they would be damned to let this place die (I know I'm one of them). It disappoints me to see that you don't exactly feel this way. In fact, call me crazy, but I think all of the conflicts this year have shown nothing but passion for the sport that we all share. They've absolutely gotten out of hand and immature at times, and that part of it totally needs to be controlled. But for the most part, all I've been seeing is a bunch of heated race fans just venting about the terrible things that have been going on this year. Inconsistent rulings, shadiness like tonight happening, bad racing. You name it, and it's happened this year. And if you do feel like you've been personally attacked, then I'll apologize on behalf of the people that you've been disagreeing with, because clearly you and I disagree on this MWR thing. I don't know. That's just my two cents worth. I enjoy conversing with you. I'd hate to see you leave over something that is totally being blown out of proportion. 731. Scott. B posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:57 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I apolgise if this was mentioned and I overlooked it amongst all the other drama, but... this was Mark Martin's first Top 10 finish since joining SHR. 732. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:58 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Critic, I disagree with most of what you're saying, but I must say that you give an educated, strong argument. I'm still just gonna stick with what I saw. I've watched the Bowyer in car three times, and it was incredibly blatant in my eyes. Yeah, this stuff has been going on since the foundation of the sport. But in today's world where it's been made clear what the rules are (even if they aren't official and are just moral), when someone gets caught for something like this, something should be done to punish them in my opinion. "As for Michael Waltrip, given how his team is discussed here, I would've thought that he was only a name on its stationery -- now he has to be crucified, beyond whatever sanction NASCAR might apply, for his role in this infernal plot?" About this, in my opinion, yes he does. After the race, he was overheard talking to Truex and telling him "You've got great teammates". To me, that not only further makes me believe it was a deliberate team order, but it also shows me that Michael knew everything that was going on (despite the "Duh, I don't know" answer he gave when he was asked about it). 733. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:11 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Murb: I believe post #699 was the tipping point, to answer your point 4. It's possible I (and everyone else) will feel better in the morning, and I hope so, but that sort of comment was wildly unacceptable. 734. Scott. B posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:29 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I would hope none of our regulars stop posting here. Emotions are running high and opinions are going to be all over the place on tonight's events, but this is still the best forum I know of. Me, personally, I'd like to see punishment fitting the actions. However, like 83andJoe and Critic, I know the history of the sport isn't exactly as pure as the driven snow. Let's keep talking and not take, or make, any of it personal. 735. Debris posted: 09.08.2013 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Carl Edwards' 100th top 5! 736. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.08.2013 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) It took 2:51:23 to complete this race. It's going to take much, much longer than that for DSFF to calm down. 737. Sky Warrior posted: 09.08.2013 - 7:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jeff Gluck has an article out titled "Conspiracy Spin?"on USA Today just now. And apparently John Darby has neither eyes nor freethinking brains in his heads http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2013/09/08/clint-bowyer-spin-martin-truex-jr-ryan-newman-chase-richmond/2781487/ 738. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 8:16 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Good job by Stenhouse Jr getting his first top 10 in the Cup series. 739. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (5) (1) I'm not sure how you can look at the timeline of twitter.com/GeoffreyMiller and still consciously say MWR is innocent. 740. RaceFanX posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:04 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) James Finch's final race as a NASCAR owner having completed his sale of the team to Turner Scott Motorsports co-owner Harry Scott, Jr. Despite the significance Finch oddly didn't attend this race. Scott took over complete ownership of the team the day after the race. 741. Rusty posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:35 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) The Bowyer controversy is keeping from people talking about another inconsistent call by NASCAR with restarts. That's twice in the same weekend where NASCAR let someone jump the restart to win. They need to do something about this rule and leave no more grey areas. 742. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:55 am Rate this comment: (2) (6) All you people keep bitching about Boywer, did any of you ever stop to think if Newman's crew hadn't chocked he probably would have made the chase 743. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I just read through all of the comments posted on here since last night and for many reasons like this, I think it's safe to say that this year has been one of the worst in NASCAR history. Let's put things into perspective: We lost a NASCAR driver (Jason Leffler), Jimmie Johnson has won races as many times as he's failed inspection, we've had more awful races than usual (the first half of last night's race was great, but the second half was horrible), one of the worst Daytona 500s of all time, the defending Champ missing the chase, and now team orders to get certain drivers into the chase. I'm sorry, but even though debris cautions worked to Gordon's favor, he deserves to be in after the conclusion of last night. I said it before, but everything about Michael Waltrip is pathetic (racing career, team ownership, tv analyst). And next spring, he will be an "expert analyst" on Fox? After what happened last night, Fox seriously needs to fire him IMMEDIATELY. This has really been a rough year, and at this point I'd say forget about the chase and let's just start off on a clean slate in 2014. Coming into this year, I had high hopes for the new car, and the momentum carried by the end of last year, but as usual we we're let down. Even though I'm a Dale Jr. fan, I have to admit that this is one of the weakest chase fields ever. With no Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Brad Keselowski. I think whoever wins this championship will have to say that they did not beat the best. 744. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Critic (#729), you miss the point entirely. Why I compare this kind of situation to the Black Sox Scandal has nothing to do with what drove it, because I know what drove it, a combination of gambling and revenge. Why I compare this to the Black Sox Scandal has to do with one thing that both have in common, and that is the fact that both situations, no matter the reason for them, challenges the very integrity of the sport. The Black Sox Scandal, as well as the alleged throwing of the World Series in in prior years, struck at the very heart of the integrity of baseball, and what happened last night struck at the very integrity of NASCAR. In fact, if anything, what happened last night is far worse because of the potential danger involved. That's still another reason those who perpetrated last night's doings should be met with the harshest penalties in the history of the sport. Not only does what happened last night strike at the very integrity o the sport, but someone could have gotten hurt as a result of Clint Bowyer's spin, because he could have gotten run into while sideways. It was not only an incident challenging the sport's very integrity, but one that could have also compromised the safety of the competitors. And that's something that is almost completely missed here. And let's not forget that Dale, Jr., who was right behind Bowyer when he spun out, missed two races in last year's Chase due to concussion-related issues, so there's a potential safety factor that everyone else seems to be missing that also must be addressed. 745. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:03 am Rate this comment: (7) (0) The first 136 laps of this race were what NASCAR once was. The rest were what NASCAR has now become. 746. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:05 am Rate this comment: (9) (1) What I find funny is the stupidity of Michael Waltrip. yeah, tell Martin after the race how great his teammates are with reporters present. and my favorite, in a race where you know you might have Clint pull off such a stunt, you invite ESPN to put a in car camera in his car. Michael is as good at cheating as he is driving a race car. 747. The Long Shot posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Yes, the Black Sox Scandal was what led to the first high commissioner in sports, and Kenesaw Mountain Landis saved the entire sport of baseball because of his actions in banning the eight members of the White Sox" Kenesaw Mountain Landis was like the John Darby of Major League Baseball. He banned all 8 of the "Black Sox" from organized baseball for life, despite the fact that all 8 had been cleared of all charges just the day before. Then, 6 years later, baseball legends Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker got caught up in a betting scandal, and Landis simply turned the other cheek and allowed them to continue playing. "Murb: I believe post #699 was the tipping point, to answer your point 4. It's possible I (and everyone else) will feel better in the morning, and I hope so, but that sort of comment was wildly unacceptable." So DSFF overreacted a little bit. Haven't you come to expect that from him by now? Look, even the worst comments on here don't compare to Youtube's comments section. Even considering comparing the two is, without a better word for it, idiotic. I like you, 83andJoe, and the same can be said for almost everybody else here, I think, but like murb said, you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. "With no Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Brad Keselowski. I think whoever wins this championship will have to say that they did not beat the best." Unless it's Jimmie Johnson, in which case he'll just say, "I can't beat the best because I am the best." 748. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:22 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) SpeedWorld97, I disagree with you that not having champions Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Brad Keselowski in the Chase means that whoever wins the championship this year didn't beat the best to do it. Tony took himself out with his sprint car wreck, and Gordon and Keselowski just weren't good enough this year. It's as simple as that. The guys that are in the Chase are the ones that deserve to be there (with the possible exception of Truex). Gordon was a victim of team politics getting him behind for the second consecutive year, and this time, even he couldn't recover from it (thanks in part to MWR) and Brad Keselowski's team never really recovered from what happened at Texas, because up until then, he was contending for the points lead. 749. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:26 am Rate this comment: (8) (0) But what happened last night was so bad that even Michael Waltrip's older brother Darrell had a few choice comments about the situation, saying that he hoped that Clint Bowyer didn't get any of those "head worms" overnight. That tells me that even Darrell Waltrip, who takes his brother's side on just about everything, thought something fishy was going on. 750. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "With no Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, and Brad Keselowski. I think whoever wins this championship will have to say that they did not beat the best." I fully disagree with this. You can say that for Stewart if you want, sure, but they beat Gordon and Keselowski in the regular season. As for Keselowski in particular, the guy's 16th in points and finished over 30 points behind a much lower regarded teammate, in addition to being behind an Earnhardt-Ganassi driver. That is not what qualifies as being one of "the best." Keselowski may have won the championship last season but based on everything I've seen this season, I can't say he's a better driver than Logano, and no one is going to call him one of the best. Regardless of the circumstances, you'd never see at this point in the season Dale Earnhardt over 100 points behind Mike Skinner or Rusty Wallace over 100 points behind Jeremy Mayfield. Gordon should be in the Chase and was only knocked out by the cheating scandal, but it's not very likely he would have been a serious threat for the championship anyway, his last top 5 points finish was in 2009. Plus, if Stewart's injury somehow makes the championship less legitimate, does that also make Stewart's 2002 championship less legitimate, since Sterling Marlin was a major threat who was knocked out of the running by injuries? 751. The Sound posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Friends, those of you who agree that MWR acted nefariously, can we think of something that would get the attention of NASCAR to let them know that we find this unacceptable? I will not even go so far as to suggest that MWR shoulders all of the blame, as I am sure most teams probably would have done something similar. Most, not all. But I find this behavior acceptable, and I would love to start a petition or something. The reporters seem to be on our side, so I believe we could make a case. Of course, with the higher-ups at NASCAR, you never know what will penetrate their thick skulls, but it could be worth a try. Right? I may just place a call to NASCAR tomorrow to let them know what I think about the situation. 752. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:35 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Gordon and Keselowski just weren't good enough this year." How was Gordon not good enough?!? The only reason he's out is because a mid-west moron spun for his bullshit team. And don't forget, Gordon would have never been in that position if things out of his control didn't attack him every other race. Bristol: popped tire while leading Texas: Hub failure while running third Charlotte: taken out by almirola and Mark Martin after being ripped away from the Top 5 by a debri cautions Daytona: taken out in a crash by Kenseth Michigan: taken out by Bobby Labonte Watkins Glen: only Gordon could be crashed due to aero-push at a road-course Gordon was fine this year. His luck, combined with what happened last night, left him a whopping 1 point out of 10th. 753. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:51 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) JG24FF, he just wasn't good enough this year to get into the top ten, which was his only shot at making he Chase. Pocono was a perfect example of that. He lost that race because he didn't drive hard enough in turn one. He admitted that himself. And except for what happened at Texas, everything you mentioned was either a result of Gordon running poorly or bad strategy. What happened to him at Bristol and Charlotte was a result of poor strategy. His team tried to make his right side tires go entirely too long at Bristol and he should never have been in that situation at Charlotte, and would not have been if he had a crew chief that could actually call a race. And what happened to him at Michigan, Watkins Glen, and the Firecracker 400 were as a result of him running where he shouldn't have been. Those aren't instances of bad luck, but rather poor preparation, tactical errors, or the driver not getting on the wheel. Only what happened at Texas can truly be considered bad luck. Even last night was partially a result of running poorly, as he did in the first half of the race, or horrendous pit calls the team made, such as bringing him in when it was obvious a caution was going to come out. Had that not happened, he would have been further up in the standings because he would not have lost a lap and probably would have been able to make the Chase. Gordon's team is just not up to standard this year, either on the pit box, on pit stops, or in the shop. Gordon still has it, but nobody else on his team seems to be able to get the job done. 754. FloridaFan88 posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (14) (0) Here is Brian Vickers' audio during the final restart. On lap 396, Vickers is told to pit. Vickers: "I've got to WHAt?" CC: "We're probably going to pit here on green." Vickers: "Are you talking to me?" CC: "Yeah, we're going to pit." Vickers: "WHAT? I've got to pit?" Vickers: "I don't understand. Pit right now?" CC: "You've got to pit this time. We need that 1 point." Vickers: "10-4. Do I got a tire going down?" CC: "Yeah." CC: "Come down pit road right now, get a good look at it." Vickers: "Did you find anything?" CC: "I'll see you after the race, Brian, I owe you a kiss." 755. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) "You've got to pit this time. We need that 1 point." Is THIS also circumstantial? Looks pretty damning. 756. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "mid-west moron" I should take offense at that! :) "Gordon still has it, but nobody else on his team seems to be able to get the job done." Well, then don't say that GORDON wasn't good enough when you really mean his team wasn't good enough. That's semantics. "This has been the worst season for NASCAR in a long long time." "I just read through all of the comments posted on here since last night and for many reasons like this, I think it's safe to say that this year has been one of the worst in NASCAR history." Coming soon: my list of the top five worst seasons in NASCAR history. I started on it last week due to a conversation going on there, and the events of last night have only affirmed 2013's place on the list. 757. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think my comment about the weakest chase ever is being taken way out of context. What I meant is the overall strenth of the chase field, such as former champions, not based on their performances this year, though I do have to agree with you guys on that. Last year's chase field had a combined 13 driver's championships and 319 career wins (at the beginning of the chase). This year's chase field has 7 total championships and 254 career wins. So statistically it is weaker, but performance-wise, it's not. 758. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Lost in all this controversy was the fact that Jamie McMurray picked up his first top 5 finish at Richmond in 22 starts. 759. MStall41 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) I agree that what MWR did was incredibly fishy, but NASCAR can't really do anything about it at the moment. Critic is absolutely correct in his analysis of this: until hard evidence of cheating is found, NASCAR's hands are tied. Moving on to some of the other complaints I've read in this thread.... I don't see how anyone can say this has been the worst NASCAR season ever of that the Gen 6 is the worst car ever and all of that nonsense. I don't know how any educated race fan can say the Gen 6 is worse than the COT. Not really related to the controversy but it just bugs me that some people think that the clearly improved Gen 6 is somehow worse than the COT. For those whining about the Chase and how it caused this controversy to happen, here's a news flash, shit like this happened before the Chase and would happen no matter what points system is in place. Owners have been trying to game the system for years (1993/1995 Atlanta come to mind). Last night wasn't the first time this happened in the Chase era either. It's unfortunate but when big money and points are on the line, teams will do desperate shit. You better believe Bowyer wouldn't spin again at Homestead if it helped Truex secure a championship. And that wouldn't be a Chase issue. So in essence, yes, what happened last night was bullshit and deserves to be investigated. But trying to place the blame on NASCAR is pointless and incorrect. 760. The Long Shot posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) All I can say is thank God that there are NFL games on today. At least I have something to watch to keep my mind off of this whole cheating situation. Who's with me? 761. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:25 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "Here is Brian Vickers' audio during the final restart." 110% convinced now. 762. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "All I can say is thank God that there are NFL games on today. At least I have something to watch to keep my mind off of this whole cheating situation. Who's with me?" The Iowa Truck race is on too, so that should be interesting. No Cup guys, awesome race track. Should be fun. 763. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) last night I said: "it's really not that bad". Because I didn't fully realize the extent of bullshit that went on because I was listening on the radio. Now that I have read multiple stories about MWR's play with Bowyer AND Vickers, i've concluded that this is the worst race that i've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. I've noticed other Gordon faithfuls such as NicoRosbergFan and Paul haven't said zilch, and I really want to hear how they feel about it all. 764. murb posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know how any educated race fan can say the Gen 6 is worse than the COT." I think the Gen 6 is slightly better than the COT. But not by much. I like it on the short tracks (despite all of the tomfoolery, I liked the actual on track racing last night), and I also like it on the road courses (but that's probably because the road courses are awesome). As for the big tracks? I think it sucks on the plate tracks, and I think it's mediocre at best on the intermediates. Fontana was great, but I think that race has proven to be an outlier. I know it's just the first year for the Gen 6, but I have yet to see how or what Nascar plans to do to make improvements on it. All of the Gen 6 supporters are saying "Give it time". I agree, it does need time to develop. But the clock is ticking away, and I haven't heard of any changes or anything that they plan to do to improve the overall racing of it. 765. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here is Brian Vickers' audio during the final restart." May I inquire where you obtained this? 766. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Lol, like many of you, I thought I'd be done with this come morning. Guess not. Still very disappointed in Gordon's outcome, but it's not like he didn't have other problems all year that lead to this situation. I have a nothing but disdain for Waltrip and his organization, whether this was some sort of scandal or not. He was a middling driver for years, had some luck with DEI and all of the sudden he's some sort of expert and "respected"...please. I'll admit I thought, at the time, that it was awesome that in the twilight of his career he hooked up with the team of a legend and found some success. That feeling faded pretty quickly when he started voicing his opinions on EVERYTHING, on the track and off. I think the last straw for me was when he made his political stripe known during a pre-race interview in March 2003. Honestly, even if I agree with them, I don't care what celebs' political views are, I leave it at that. I'll probably be a casual fan of the Chase, if that. Thanks guys, you riled me up and reminded me how much I hate Brian France! LOL! No offense, I'm not interested in peoples' opinions of the NFL, but I'll come out and say that I am going to pay even more attention to it just because I know one of the major reasons we even have the Chase is because it was conceived as a way to combat the ratings drop-off during football season. Add to that all the other goofy junk that has gone on in 2013 that has been pointed out numerous times here already and I really just get annoyed about this season in general and how I'm SO done with it. The only saving grace is now I can watch two likely p.o.'d drivers go all out. Gordon has nothing to lose at Hendrick and over the next 10 races. Maybe we'll see him take some minor gambles on track and the crew will in the set-ups and he'll close out the year strong. Newman? Well he seemingly has everything to prove. He wants to remind his suitors that he is a Chase and Championship level driver and he can and will deliver. 767. MStall41 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think everything you said is fair murb, but I think fans get too blinded by "the right now" that they forget to look at the bigger picture. When it comes down to it, the car was an immediate improvement, IMO, over the COT, and its seriously starting to get better. The plate package will be fixed, that's always a moving target. I just wish NASCAR fans were a bit more patient. Nothing was going to be fixed overnight. 768. Peter posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (7) You people are vicious; you are out for blood. If it was intentional or not you shouldn't just suspend guys for the rest of the season , and fine them ungodly sums of money, your taking away their livelihood. If drivers could be suspended for helping teammates why wasn't NASCAR suspending guys for letting teammates get by them to lead a lap so they could get points? or before the lucky dog easing up so they could stay on the lead lap or get a lap back? If it was on purpose Bowyer was just following team orders, and you can't suspend him or Pattie for doing what their told, and why do you want to penalize Truex he probably had no idea what was going on. If anyone deserves to be penalized it's Michael Waltrip 769. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:45 pm Rate this comment: (6) (1) Jenna Fryer released the audio. If NASCAR doesn't do something about this, then they're setting a scary precedent from this point forward. 770. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) There's a big difference between letting a teammate lead a lap and purposely manipulating not only a race, but an entire season. Also, I consider Rob Kauffman to be a man of integrity in terms of NASCAR respect. He may make some statements on this. 771. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've had some sleep, and thus, I've had some time to cool off. And I STILL feel pretty incensed about what happened last night. I'm well aware NASCAR has had plenty of shady things occur throughout its' long history as a sport that it has chosen to turn a blind eye to. But I REALLY wish NASCAR would step up and start doing something about shady goings-on such as this. If they're just going to sit around and basically say "What the hell are you all talking about? We don't see anything fishy here," they're basically setting a precedent for more and more teams to pull stunts like this. And that will cause the sport to lose the respect of more than a few fans. And believe me, I'm against teams trying to manipulate championship battles in any blatant way whatsoever. I've never been fond of teams bringing extra entries to races just so they can have extra cars to help their driver win a championship. Doing that basically says to me that the team owner does not have confidence in their driver's on-track ability to win the championship on their own. The worst example I can think of this is the 2003 Ford 200 Truck race where Jim Smith had FIVE trucks entered and one of them, Marty Houston, ended up taking out Brendan Gaughan and almost handed the championship to Ted Musgrave (he fortunately did not win the title thanks to him getting a penalty for jumping a restart). 772. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:03 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Hey here's a thought instead of bitching on here why don't you guys write to NASCAR 773. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "Hey here's a thought instead of bitching on here why don't you guys write to NASCAR" We like bitching to one another on here. Thanks for the tip though. 774. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Writing to NASCAR probably won't accomplish anything unless a mass of people do it, I'm sad to say. It's no surprise that NASCAR wouldn't do anything about this really...Clint Bowyer's spin manufactured excitement, which is EXACTLY what NASCAR is fond of doing themselves. Look at all the invisible debris cautions, cautions being thrown prematurely when cars get close to the wall but don't hit it or for cars getting out of shape but not spinning out, or hell, the very existence of the Chase itself. 775. Eric posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @772Anonymous, There is a problem with writing to NASCAR. NASCAR is known to play "spin doctor" and companies are known not to give a direct answer or response when you write to them. I am saying this based what happened to some people writing to to some companies that I don't want name. The fact is NASCAR wouldn't do anything unless a tom of people would send a letter to NASCAR. The 2nd thing is take a look at NASCAR under Brian France in terms of manufacturing excitement. 776. Rexrobe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I would not be at all surprised to see Rob Kaufmann separate from Michael Waltrip. He seems to be the money and integrity, and if he wasn't involved with this, there's no reason to hang on to Mikey. 777. Ivan Balakhonov posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Well, this race finally made me quit watching NASCAR. All this season is horrible and last night's race was the epitome of it. I just can't take it seriously anymore... As for MWR, I hope that in long shot they will regret putting at stake their credibility to gain this momentary profit. Damaged reputation isn't worth it And maybe they are realizing it now, for the reaction in press and in the social media is not something to brush off easily. Maybe NAPA, Aaron's and 5-Hour Energy are scratching their heads now? 778. Peter posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian France is taking a big steaming dump all over what his daddy and grandaddy worked so hard to build 779. loomer posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) This is Nascar's chance to finally make a statement. We all know these things have happened throughout the sport's history, but now Nascar has the opportunity to establish a precedent regarding team orders. Will they do it? Considering who's in charge, unfortunately probably not. 780. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If what FloridaFan88 said in post #754 is true, then the those communicating to Brian Vickers should also face severe punishments, though not quite up to the lifetime banishment level, because that kind of thing can not be tolerated, either. Ironically, that kind of stuff was going on in this race last year involving, among others, the 11 and 56 teams to assist Kyle Busch. However, based on that communication, I wouldn't give Brian Vickers much more than a slap on the wrist, since he objected to what was going on. Ironic too that it was the #55 car that Jeff Gordon passed that clinched his Chase berth last year. I doubt very seriously that Mark Martin, who drove that car in this race last year, would have pulled that kind of a stunt. I also think that Tony Stewart is none too thrilled about that turn of events, and he's one guy you don't want mad at you, and he and Vickers have had their moments before (remember Sonoma 2011?). Crossing HMS is one thing, but crossing Tony Stewart's team, especially with the boss on hand is not going to end well for MWR. And speaking of "the boss", I doubt the silver-haired man that was on top of Jeff Gordon's pit box would have ever stood for anything like that. That silver-haired man was none other than the legendary Junior Johnson himself. That's one man nobody crossed. He had to be severely embarrassed and disgusted about that turn of events, just because of how much he's put into the sport over the decades. I just hope he didn't see that ending, because he would be irate if that had happened, because that's the kind of thing he wouldn't stand for. The driver introductions at Chicago and for the rest of the season will be, to say the least, very interesting, because I expect Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman to get a thunderous ovation the likes of which they've never heard for them in driver intros, and I expect all of the MWR drivers, as well as Joey Logano, who also benefitted equally from MWR's maleficence, to get lustily booed, even though Logano had nothing to do with last night's events. 781. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brett Jewkes: "OFFICIAL: #NASCAR is reviewing Sat. night's race at RIR per protocol and has no plans for further statement until process is complete." 782. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Had someone told me before the race that these would be the twelve drivers who would make the Chase, I would have been thrilled. Mainly, I wanted to see Keselowski and Gordon miss it (sorry Racing-Reference). But I certainly did not want to see it happen under these circumstances and I call BS when I see it no matter the outcome. Gordon would definitely have qualified if MWR did not manipulate the race and that's plain to see. There is a mountain of evidence against MWR and I really don't care if people argue it's circumstantial or what. I mean, really, Bowyer's spotter informed him of the race situation before Brian Pattie made an odd comment about scratching an itch on his arm... a couple of turns later, Bowyer jerks the wheel left and the camera feed mysteriously cuts out... Bowyer then apparently stops on pit road to fall 2 laps down... Brian Vickers is called in to pit because they "need that 1 point," and then runs 10 seconds off the pace on his final lap... then Michael Waltrip tells Truex after the race he has awesome teammates. I don't care who gets offended, if you think MWR is innocent here, you're either naive or oblivious. This was deliberately planned and took not one, but two MWR cars to execute, which is demonstrable through radio communications. Oddly enough, the most innocent person is the beneficiary, Truex. As for penalties, I would say: Clint Bowyer: 25 points (post-reset), 1 week suspension Brian Vickers: 1 week suspension (NASCAR-wide, including Nationwide) #15, #55, #56 lose all 2013 owner points Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman banned from NASCAR events for rest of 2013 Team fined $250,000 4 week suspension for Brian Pattie and Scott Miller I'd eliminate all MWR teams from owner's championship contention, but allow Truex to still run for the driver's championship as he didn't really do anything wrong. Of course, it's irrelevant anyway, we know NASCAR will look the other way as indicated by Darby's statement. But not doing anything will have more and more people questioning the legitimacy of the sport, and it definitely does not look good for NASCAR. 783. 83andJoe posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >James Finch's final race as a NASCAR owner having completed his sale of the team to Turner Scott Motorsports co-owner Harry Scott, Jr. Despite the significance Finch oddly didn't attend this race. Not surprised, given how Finch has been over the years. 784. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "If they are actually going to accuse someone of race manipulation, then they require a certainty that is not founded on intuition or inference alone." I see your point there. Renault didn't get in trouble immediately after the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix and weren't penalized until Nelson Piquet, Jr. made it public after Renault fired him (and Fernando Alonso was still allowed to keep his win), but I also think the #55 radio broadcast is more than circumstantial, and even less subtle than what went on with the #15. I think you're kind of right that there isn't anything that can be done about it, but I think it's more than circumstantial too because it was done so stupidly. Michael Waltrip saying "you've got great teammates" and the Vickers radio broadcast seem to cross the line and become fact. You know if Hendrick or Penske attempted something similar (and I'm sure they have) they would not be so stupid about it. "As for Michael Waltrip, given how his team is discussed here, I would've thought that he was only a name on its stationery -- now he has to be crucified, beyond whatever sanction NASCAR might apply, for his role in this infernal plot? You can't have it both ways." Agree with murb about this. "When Neil Bonnett appeared at the final race in 1993 in the No. 31 as an insurance policy for Earnhardt, or when Hendrick did something similar with a fourth entry in 1995 because Gordon only had to finish ahead of a single car to win the championship, were those acceptable?" Those don't bother me AS much. Neither of those entries was remotely likely to beat the #3 or the #24 yet they were both enough to qualify for the race. Also, Earnhardt and Gordon both had massive points leads, and the probability of the title being decided by that one position (which would otherwise have been filled by some DNQ car that probably would have finished behind Earnhardt or Gordon anyway, even if they encountered trouble) would have been unbelievably remote. Same deal with Penske entering A.J. Allmendinger in the IndyCar finale to help Helio. It looks like Helio's gonna have a pretty massive lead after Houston at which point AJA's entry will be relatively inconsequential. "From a certain perspective, lingering on the track after an accident trying to goad NASCAR into a caution is just as contemptible and dangerous as spinning out intentionally, isn't it?" I was pissed about Johnson's crash because I felt he had no business on the track and should have taken his DNF rather than running around 20 laps down, although I think it was NASCAR, not Johnson, who was helping Gordon there. You fix that by not having differential points for the bottom positions. I had bigger problems when people would stop on the track (Reutimann at Martinsville and Dave Marcis several times for Earnhardt) and I probably feel both of those should have been penalized, but it's harder and not AS obvious to make judgment calls in those situations. As for cars slamming on the brakes to let teammates 15 cars behind get back on the lead lap or even to help cars of the same manufacturer (which happened way too often for my liking), the lucky dog pretty much killed that practice, and that's why I actually LIKE it, which most fans don't. At least it only lets one car back every single time rather than ten. Some of those Bristol races with 20 cars on the lead lap right before the lucky dog was instituted were freaking comical. I don't think it's necessary anymore with the wave-around though. "The 55 and 15's behavior on the final restart is completely legitimate and defensible, as far as I'm concerned" Absolutely not. From that radio broadcast, it looks like what Vickers was ordered to do was actually even more despicable than what Bowyer was ordered to do. "I doubt that anyone affiliated with NASCAR would have remembered exactly what took place in the Singaporean Grand Prix five years ago, which was the only recent event comparable to this one." Yeah, both NASCAR and F1 believe they're the center of the racing universe and have trained their fanboys to believe likewise (sadly the majority of NASCAR fans in past decades at least (maybe not this one) think road racing isn't real racing, while F1 fans think oval racing isn't real racing...both of them need to broaden their horizons). So NASCAR probably mostly ignores F1. This reminds me. I REALLY would love to hear Nelson Piquet, Jr.'s thoughts about this considering he was essentially blacklisted from Formula One teams after making Renault's team orders public and is now racing in NASCAR, which he must have initially thought was "less political". "If I wasn't attempting to make a serious argument, I might actually identify a certain masochism in those who constantly denounce NASCAR's illusory cautions but tolerate them with their continued viewership" I watch way less NASCAR than I used to (I used to watch every Busch/truck race and rarely do, and have skipped parts of several Cup races lately, which I wouldn't have done in the '90s). I'm watching more IndyCar, and although it's easy to quibble with their officiating as well (they had a similar mini-scandal with Power and Dixon, but I actually think Dixon's penalty was right). "It was possible to have respect for people here, mutual respect, once; this has now gotten worse than Youtube comments" No, it hasn't. Nobody has called anyone a rapist or said they killed women by fingering them (the kind of vitriol multiple people have aimed at me on YouTube typing videos...) I don't recall many ad hominem attacks on other posters here (DSFF crossed the line comparing Critic to Darby, but I think he'd agree with that today). People were attacking NASCAR officials, MWR, and its drivers last night. Most people were not attacking other posters. I certainly was not. "If it happened in a non-televised race would it not be as bad?" Absolutely it would be as bad. "How is one form of "manipulating the competition" - a deliberate spin - worthy of excommuication and calls for five million dollar fines (I would ask if you want to kill the team, but that'd be a rhetorical question, of course you do), whereas for all the years when a caution came out and the leader would stomp on the brakes to let his teammate(s) back on the lead lap, That's Racin?" I would give the #15 and #55 harsh points penalties but I definitely think a $5,000,000 fine sounds excessive, as Formula One's monetary fines of that nature also seem excessive to me. I don't think you can penalize the #56 ultimately. Truex seemed dazed all this happened around him, and he and his team did not seem to do anything wrong even though they received "assistance". "And I remember back when all of the hoopla over Menard's believed-deliberate spin occured, I don't think there were calls to have Childress kicked out of the sport then. But now, apparently, it's different, just because of who the team owner is." "I say just ban Childress from the track for the rest of the year and put Menards crew chief on probation." Post #207 from that race. Almost as strong as some of the stuff said tonight, but affecting an entire championship battle is more severe than just affecting a single race. 785. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "As for penalties, I would say: Clint Bowyer: 25 points (post-reset), 1 week suspension Brian Vickers: 1 week suspension (NASCAR-wide, including Nationwide) #15, #55, #56 lose all 2013 owner points Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman banned from NASCAR events for rest of 2013 Team fined $250,000 4 week suspension for Brian Pattie and Scott Miller I'd eliminate all MWR teams from owner's championship contention, but allow Truex to still run for the driver's championship as he didn't really do anything wrong. Of course, it's irrelevant anyway, we know NASCAR will look the other way as indicated by Darby's statement. But not doing anything will have more and more people questioning the legitimacy of the sport, and it definitely does not look good for NASCAR." That's an excellent compromise between doing nothing and the idea of a $5 million penalty (which even I find excessive). I approve. 786. MStall41 posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (12) (0) NASCAR has launched an investigation into the incident, according to an ESPN report. 787. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That silver-haired man was none other than the legendary Junior Johnson himself. That's one man nobody crossed. He had to be severely embarrassed and disgusted about that turn of events, just because of how much he's put into the sport over the decades. I just hope he didn't see that ending, because he would be irate if that had happened, because that's the kind of thing he wouldn't stand for." Junior Johnson is one of the most notorious cheaters in NASCAR history. He'd have been pissed if somebody beat one of his cars fell out of a title chase this way, but sadly I think he (or almost any other powerhouse owner) would have been okay with it if it had been his idea or one of his crew chiefs' ideas... 788. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel bad for James Finch, it was the end of his tenure as an owner and nobody is talking about it 789. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Touchdown!! Steve Smith!! 790. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (4) (6) -According to his Twitter page, Gil Martin, crew chief of Harvick's team, basically said that he was happy that a new champ would be crowned this season because the last one is a "tool." He's just jealous. He's trying to accomplish in his 13th season what Brad needed just 3 seasons to accomplish. Also, at the end of their 4th seasons, The Vulture only had 4 wins. Brad has 9 (I'm gonna assume he goes winless this year, all of Penske's best shit better go to Joey). So The Vulture can consider himself pwned. Loser. 791. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "And I remember back when all of the hoopla over Menard's believed-deliberate spin occured, I don't think there were calls to have Childress kicked out of the sport then. But now, apparently, it's different, just because of who the team owner is." Dude, we are still shitting over that one. Why do you think we are calling driver 15 " Clint Menard"? And the constant trashing of the post-Earnhardt RCR. 792. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Sean, I agree that Junior Johnson was one of the most notorious cheaters in the history of the sport, if not THE most notorious cheater. But this goes way beyond simple cheating. This goes to the heart of the integrity of the sport, and Junior would never try to win the way MWR got Truex and, by extension, Logano into the Chase, because while he may have been the biggest cheater in the history of the sport, he's always been a man of high integrity. In fact, after he sold out after the 1995 season, he would have been the perfect man to be the sport's commissioner, because I've always thought of him as being a man of the highest integrity. This goes beyond any cheating scandal. This goes to the integrity of the on-track product. Cheating is one thing, but what happened last night is something far different and infinitely worse, and is the kind of situation that is the reason the sport needs a high commissioner, and I think Junior Johnson would have been perfect for that role. 793. Sean posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "While he may have been the biggest cheater in the history of the sport, he's always been a man of high integrity." Wait, what? "This goes beyond any cheating scandal. This goes to the integrity of the on-track product." How does cheating not affect the integrity of the on-track product? I'll grant that what MWR did was worse than most of the stuff Johnson did, but I wouldn't exactly classify him as a "man of integrity". That's probably a major reason why his team was so successful... "I think Junior Johnson would have been perfect for that role." However, I agree with that. Cheaters are often the best at catching other people's cheating, as we saw when Gary Nelson became the series director. 794. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The fact that NASCAR is actually investigating it gives me hope that they will issue some sort of penalty. As I said before, NASCAR is not a court of law and the standard for issuing penalties is not the same. With that said...$5,000,000 fines and lifetime bans? Really guys? There's been one guy in modern NASCAR who received a lifetime ban and it took him three strikes to get there. 795. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) 've had some sleep, and thus, I've had some time to cool off. And I STILL feel pretty incensed about what happened last night. I slept almost 12 hours and I am still pissed. Here is Brian Vickers' audio during the final restart. How's that for "circumstancal evidence"? Michael is as good at cheating as he is driving a race car. He is a complete failure at everything. Driving, owning, broadcasting, driving on street roads, being a husband...... It took 2:51:23 to complete this race. It's going to take much, much longer than that for DSFF to calm down. Well, it is currently 2:21 East coast time and I am still steaming over that worthless pile of maggot covered shit Michael Waltrip. 796. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I did a little research on the commissioner, since I know that Erwin "Cannonball" Baker was NASCAR's first. It was originally intended to be a powerless, honorary title, but over the years it has evolved into a position for hearing appealed penalties, which technically means that the commissioner now is...John Middlebrook. 797. Sector posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) So now that Brad Keselowski missed the chase, does this mean he'll be running the rest of the Nationwide races to get that precious Owner's Championship? Wouldn't doubt it. But dang, I am so disappointed that Jeff didn't make it, despite all the chaos that happened. I smell fishy things here tonight, but its whatever. After the Michigan crash Bobby Labonte caused on lap 5, I knew down the road it'll be a mighty frustrating roller-coaster race to the chase for Jeff Gordon. 798. DB1995 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Its races like this, fake debris cautions, and obvious favortism on track that make me question why i try to talk my friends who like F1 and indy car into liking NASCAR. 799. Kyle posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Lost in all of this AJ Allmendinger got another top ten in the 47. Looks like he is actually competitive in that car. 800. Kyle posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Top 15 not 10 801. Ryan W posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (5) (7) All of Nascar is shady. MWR and Hendrick both are. Why complain about it? Gordon has had all the luck in the world on his side (especially during mid 90's to the mid 2000's) before. Hard to feel sorry for him. Especially the way he acted last week and has acted here and there such as Phoenix last year. I agree with what people are saying about Nascar needing to police shady moves by teams. This happened at the first Richmond race in 2008 with Hamlin slowing down on purpose to allow Kyle Busch to catch up with Jr and then he wrecked him. Hendrick got three cars in, but that isn't enough. He's done enough shady business over his life and yet people feel sorry for the 24. Na$car is getting hammered right now, but it's a byproduct of their own doing. Knowing them they are probably loving all of this negative publicity. Btw, the stands looked half full or half empty however one wants to look at it. 802. Mike24 posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (11) Why should MWR be held accountable for manipulating the race when nascar does it every race through its Wrestling-esque officiating? Good for MWR playing into the current state or stock car racing, if I was running the team I'd have my drivers collude to help another team car every time. 803. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) "I agree with what people are saying about Nascar needing to police shady moves by teams. This happened at the first Richmond race in 2008 with Hamlin slowing down on purpose to allow Kyle Busch to catch up with Jr and then he wrecked him." While Hamlin did intentionally bring out a caution, I'm almost certain it was NOT for Kyle Busch's benefit. It was for his own benefit. He was caught and penalized multiple laps. 804. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (10) (0) Gordon's post-race tweet: "Was feeling pretty bad about missing the #Chase but after seeing all the details coming out now I feel even worse for @RyanNewman39." Glad to see Gordon being empathetic towards Newman, since he was probably boned even worse than Gordon. 805. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) According to my NASCAR on Fox Facebook page NASCAR is apparently now reviewing the race. 806. kup posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Non-'Chase' standings after this race: Rank Driver Points Diff 1 Carl Edwards 842 - Yep! New Real Leader! 2 Jimmie Johnson 841 -1 3 Clint Bowyer 829 -13 4 Kevin Harvick 828 -14 5 Kyle Busch 811 -31 6 Matt Kenseth 807 -35 7 Dale Earnhardt, Jr. 781 -61 8 Kurt Busch 762 -80 - Yep! Really 8th! 9 Greg Biffle 759 -83 10 Joey Logano 751 -91 11 Jeff Gordon 750 -92 - What Chase? He lost even to JLo! 12 Martin Truex, Jr. 741 -101 13 Ryan Newman 741 -101 - No Chase - he is 13th! 14 Kasey Kahne 739 -103 - No Chase - he is 14th! 15 Jamie McMurray 721 -121 - #1 is better than #2 (2012 1st) 16 Brad Keselowski 720 -122 - No Chase he lost to #22 and #1! 17 Paul Menard 698 -144 18 Aric Almirola 664 -178 19 Juan Pablo Montoya 656 -186 20 Ricky Stenhouse, Jr. 644 -198 - Just 1 Top 10! Wait for 2014? 807. Num1hendrickfan posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First off, I have to commend Jeff Gordon and the 24 team for showcasing yet again their never give up attitude. They did everything in their power to put Jeff in position to make the chase, but alas it wasn't meant to be. Given the up and down starts to 2012 & 2013 you'd think this team would be down in the dumps, but they fight each and every race for the best possible finish. Next up, regardless of who made or missed the chase someone somewhere would've upset with the outcome. There were just so many variables that could have gone either way for each and every driver between 9th-16th in the standings especially those with wins. If Newman won, and Jeff snuck into 10th Logano would be out and people would be claiming Penske let him down ( or claiming he should go back to Nationwide ). Even a problem on the Furniture Row team would have been enough to shake things up. All in all the Chase field is pretty stout, even without the likes of Gordon, Keselowski, Stewart, and Hamlin. This is what's going to happen when you have twenty capable and competitive teams all competing for a slice of 12 chase berths. 808. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Glad to see Gordon being empathetic towards Newman, since he was probably boned even worse than Gordon." To be fair, Newman's own (lol, Newman's Own) pit crew boned him worse than anyone else did. Newman still could have won that race if they performed, but Gordon's chances were pretty much dead by default due to the unearned positions gained by Logano and the fact that Gordon's car wasn't fast enough to gain more positions (he finished where he was before the caution). 809. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "If Newman won, and Jeff snuck into 10th Logano would be out and people would be claiming Penske let him down" No, Logano would have earned the second wild card. 810. Schroeder51 posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) #809 Huh? Logano WOULD have missed the Chase in that scenario because if Newman won the race, both he and Kahne would have had two wins and they would have both been outside the top 10 in points, so they would have gotten the wild cards. 811. Baker posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Watched the race this morning and wow is all I have to say. And NASCAR wonders why the are losing fans. 812. TS1420 posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (4) (5) Here some points I'd like to bring up. -NASCAR has been rigging/manipulating/swaying races since forever (it's just gotten worse and more blatant since the beginning of the new millennium), so why can't teams do the same? -Team shenanigans is nothing new to NASCAR (it's just that MWR took it to a whole new level last night) and nothing will ever stop it, not even implementing 1 car limits since there will still be satellite teams, engine/chassis supplier alliances, manufacture alliances, ect. -A commissioner wont solve anything. It would just be another idiot stooge in control like Baby France, Helton, Darby & Pemberton. -5 million dollar fines, striped of all points & lifetime suspensions. Why don't we just burn all of MWR at the stake while we at it. -Junior Johnson the pillar of moral integrity? Bwahahaha! I like Junior, but let's face it. He was the original Rick Hendrick. Even has a pardoned felony conviction to boot. 813. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Huh? Logano WOULD have missed the Chase in that scenario because if Newman won the race, both he and Kahne would have had two wins and they would have both been outside the top 10 in points, so they would have gotten the wild cards." Doh! I missed the "if Newman won" part. 814. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those waiting me to post one of my famous "obscure Gordon stats", here it is: Jeff lost a Modern record streak of 19 consecutive seasons of 11th or better in the standings. To put that in perspective, Dale Earnhardt's longest streak was only 9 years straight from 1983-1991. 815. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^*for me 816. Anthony posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (6) All of this season we never deserve to be in the chase. Since NASCAR's fall in 2010 Jeff Gordon has had the worst times of his career of not being the best like he should & this is why this whole "Wild Card" thing is the stupidest thing ever used & plus Kyle Busch & Jamie McMurray were the guys who did this screw it. If your in the Top12 In In In In simple AS that. If Dale Earnhardt was here what he could've done besides losing someone who's had the time of his life. My ATL Braves lost the overall lead to the Red Sox. Jeff Gordon will always be known as a champion race car driver I hate seeing guys loose their chances it breaks my heart to not see Tony Stewart Brad K now this sport will never grow. But hey you what my friend Matthew & I are great buddies even though he's a Ryan Newman fan (Which is not a rivalry) & from that point I thought it was gonna be a lifetime which it wasn't meant to be. Now I'm all alone he is too but just sadden both our drivers miss the chase. Rick he's not happy he's sad because his driver didnt make the chase. Roger Penske has a grumpy face as always his driver Brad failed to qualify. Tony Stewart had the biggest frown of his life to not see Newman make the chase. Denny Hamlin stuck a fork at himself after Fontana. And you know what I wish Jeff Gordon could run just limited Nationwide races just to get his confidence back. Besides he needs that or he found something from the sky a stone that can guide him to his lifelong dream of becoming 5-Time after all these years. Maybe it's that maybe it is I think Jeff Gordon ain't done yet he can probably do the same what Tony Stewart did go out & win races like a real former champion does. Here's a few reasons why has NASCAR been so dull: 1. Smaller Attendance in 2010 led to this. 2. 2 drivers in 2009 & 2010 win a lot of races & miss the chase 3. Since 2005 Drivers have been in by 0 wins & ended with that. 4. Jeff Gordon keeps being as soft as a pillow 5. Dale Jr still being snakebittin by 2009 & so forth until 2011-Today coming back but... Fail 6. Dale Eanrhardt is no longer here 7. NASCAR's only greatest year since the chase (2004) 8. Competetion is Boring these days. 9. I rather fall asleep Finally. Screw No.1 let's go for 11th LOL (13th) Jeff Gordon deserves to be Dale Earnhardt of 1994 next year I believe he can do this. Your 2014 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series Champion is Jeff Gordon 2014 'Chase' Drivers Jeff Gordon Matt Kenseth Jimmie Johnson Dale Earnhardt Jr. Denny Hamlin Tony Stewart Kyle Busch Kurt Busch Carl Edwards Kevin Harvick Brad Keselowski Ryan Newman Those are my predictions for next year. All I have to say Jeff Gordon will kick everyone's ass in 2013 & '14. 817. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I copied this from the Detroit News, that just posted this. Here's the full story about the investigation: Charlotte, N.C. - NASCAR is reviewing evidence to determine if Michael Waltrip Racing deliberately attempted to manipulate the outcome of the race that set the Chase for the Sprint Cup championship field. NASCAR president Mike Helton told the Associated Press before Sunday's Truck Series race at Iowa that officials in the scoring tower did not immediately see anything to believe Clint Bowyer's spin with seven laps remaining at Richmond was suspicious. It brought out a caution with Ryan Newman leading Saturday night and poised to claim the final berth in the 12-driver Chase field. Instead, it set in motion a chain of events that led to Bowyer teammate Martin Truex Jr. earning the final berth and Newman losing both the race and a spot in the Chase. When Bowyer spun to bring out the caution, Helton said race control, located in a suite above the track, could not determine if it was done deliberately to aid Truex. "We didn't see anything that indicated that anything like that was taking place. And it's natural when everything was as close as it was between who was going to get in and not go in to scratch your heads and try to figure out and wonder why," Helton said. "But we didn't see anything initially (Saturday) night that indicated that, but certainly we'll go back through all the video and everything to be sure, because we take the responsibility very serious to be sure that it's - that everybody has had a fair chance." An ESPN replay that included communication between Bowyer and his team implied the spin was deliberate. Bowyer was shown the video after the race and denied he spun intentionally, a claim he repeated throughout the post-race activities. "We had a flat tire or something. It just snapped around," Bowyer said, later adding, "I know it's a lot of fun for you guys to write a lot of wacky things. Go ahead if you want to, get creative. But don't look too much into it." But the in-car audio framed the situation as his crew goading him into spinning his car to bring out the yellow while Newman, who was battling Truex for the second wild-card berth in the Chase, was leading the race. "Thirty-nine is going to win the race," Bowyer was told over his radio. "Is your arm starting to hurt?" crew chief Brian Pattie asked. After a pause, Pattie said, "I bet it's hot in there. Itch it." Bowyer's car then spun. NASCAR did not have access to that audio until after the race, and it is presumably among the materials Helton was reviewing Sunday. Also, it became apparent early Sunday morning that Bowyer and teammate Brian Vickers further aided Truex by taking a dive over the final three laps. The race resumed with three laps to go and four-time series champion Jeff Gordon poised to claim the 10th spot in the Chase, with Joey Logano in line for the second wild-card. But Bowyer and Vickers both made pit stops that helped Logano improve his finishing position enough that he claimed the 10th Chase berth, thus eliminating Gordon from contention. It freed up the wild card for Truex, and Gordon was not eligible for the wild card. The AP reviewed team communications for both Bowyer and Vickers on Sunday, and Vickers was told by MWR general manager Ty Norris to pit because "we need that one point." "We're probably going to pit here on green," Norris says. "Are you talking to me?" a surprised Vickers asks. Vickers continued to question the call, at one point asking, "I don't understand, pit right now?" "You've got to pit this time. We need that one point," Norris replies. "10-4. Do I got a tire going down?" Vickers asked. Vickers then pitted as the field went green. When he asked after if his crew found anything with the tire, Norris replied, "I'll see you after the race, Brian, I owe you a kiss." Bowyer's radio communication is not as verbose, but he pitted twice after his spin, and the team called him down pit road for a third time with no explanation as the field went green. It's not uncommon in NASCAR for teammates to help each other with track position, so on its face, the calls for the two MWR drivers to pit aren't that egregious. But added with Bowyer's spin, fans were crying foul on MWR's actions, especially since it cost both Gordon and Newman spots in the 10-race Chase. MWR co-owner Michael Waltrip was calling the Truck race for Fox Sports 1 on Sunday and declined to comment to AP, saying he was too busy preparing for the broadcast. Gordon posted on Twitter that he felt bad for both drivers. "Was feeling pretty bad about missing the #Chase but after seeing all the details coming out now I feel even worse for @RyanNewman39," he tweeted on Sunday. Newman downplayed the significance of Bowyer's spin because he said his pit crew still had a chance to put him in position to win the race after the caution. "They are teammates. I don't know if he looked at the scoring pylon, knew I was leading, it doesn't matter," Newman said after the race. "If that was the case, I'll find out one way or the other. At the same time, we still had the opportunity to make our own destiny and win it on pit road, and we didn't. That being said, we're out." 818. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) webmaster, will you please fix the above for me? 819. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Apparently Jr. said this on Lap 395: "He was on the brakes that entire corner, trying to spin it without getting in trouble. He was acting very oddly." 820. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Pretty damning evidence to me. Sickening. 821. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) As far as Jimmie's caution goes, even if there was collusion--which I don't think there was because it very well could have screwed Gordon as well if it had happened a few seconds later--it was a misdemeanor compared to the felony that Bowyer and MWR committed. Meanwhile, DW (who I don't hate as much as others) says that this race was just like any other Richmond race. Yep, just another ho hum NASCAR race. 822. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks a lot, webmaster! 823. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I'm just curious: what gradient of manipulation does everyone here find acceptable? When Neil Bonnett appeared at the final race in 1993 in the No. 31 as an insurance policy for Earnhardt, or when Hendrick did something similar with a fourth entry in 1995 because Gordon only had to finish ahead of a single car to win the championship, were those acceptable? I will say right now, NONE! I often go out of my way not to mention those incidents as why I have no respect for Dale Sr. and minimal respect for Jeff Gordon, simply because most fans outside of this site get WAY to but hurt way to fast. I have NO tolerance for either incident. Would either accomplishment have been tainted if they had to play their joker in the deck? At what point is the romanticism that so many of you want to protect compromised? From a certain perspective, lingering on the track after an accident trying to goad NASCAR into a caution is just as contemptible and dangerous as spinning out intentionally, isn't it? Unless you are trying to force a caution to come out because you are unable to get your car facing the right way or get it into pit lane, I believe a one-lap penalty should be assigned to this incident. And here we return to one element that cannot be ignored, which is that Bowyer's spin was only successful because of NASCAR's willingness to show the caution, intent on an exciting finish irrespective of its artificiality. Possible. - - - - - - Here is Brian Vickers' audio during the final restart. On lap 396, Vickers is told to pit. Vickers: "I've got to WHAt?" CC: "We're probably going to pit here on green." Vickers: "Are you talking to me?" CC: "Yeah, we're going to pit." Vickers: "WHAT? I've got to pit?" Vickers: "I don't understand. Pit right now?" CC: "You've got to pit this time. We need that 1 point." Vickers: "10-4. Do I got a tire going down?" CC: "Yeah." CC: "Come down pit road right now, get a good look at it." Vickers: "Did you find anything?" CC: "I'll see you after the race, Brian, I owe you a kiss." THAT, along with the obvious onboard camera with Clint Bowyer, is evidence enough that the MWR part of this all was a setup. I've never liked Vickers, and to hear him question it, and STILL go along with it, is a pile of explicitives. In fact, I never cared for MWR one way or another, I rooted for Martin while he drived for them, and I booed Vickers. Didn't care about Truex or Bowyer. But this changes it all. I believe a two-race suspension for Vickers and Bowyer. ONly a 10 point penalty on Truex. There is not a whole lot he could have done, but that is to hit Michael Waltrip in the face a bit also. Likewise, Edwards should have the win stripped form him, and given to KU Busch. i don't care, he jumped the f*ng restart. NASCAR, be danm consistent! Suddendly, I udnerstand why others hate the chase. And I've been one of it's biggest supporters. But if sh*t like this goes down in the chase to where it would f* up the points, I will join the oversized hordes and legions of fans that have critizcized the chase. I'm pissed. Newman, I believe, earned a cahse spot. Logano lucked into it. Truex was set up to get it. At least I can be happy that Ku. Busch got into the chase. 824. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) It seems as if the only fair thing to do would be to revert the finishing order to the running order before Bowyer's spin. 825. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (9) (1) MWR co-owner Michael Waltrip was calling the Truck race for Fox Sports 1 on Sunday and declined to comment to AP, saying he was too busy preparing for the broadcast. Ha! Prepare for what? To mindlessly ramble like the moron that he is? To put on his fake camera face? For somebody to explain to him the concept of "Timothy Peters"? He's always ready to run his big fat worthless mouth. He knows he's in trouble. Or should be. 826. Scott. B posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No one has commented on this angle of Spingate yet, so I'll open it up. One big difference between Menard's actions and Bowyer's is that Clint executed his team orders stunt at a time when ESPN is on the way out as a NASCAR broadcast partner. With no reason to play the "rose colored glasses" game anymore, it appears to producers in the truck and the announce team have a lot more freedom to call them as they see them. 827. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 4:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But David, what you said in post #796 not what a true commissioner is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be an honorary role. A true commissioner is supposed to be the one supreme authority over everything and everyone in the sport, but also an completely impartial authority. So when I said that Junior Johnson would have a perfect choice as the sport's commissioner after selling out after the 1995 season, he would have been the perfect choice because he was a driver, crew chief, chief mechanic, car owner, and excelled at every one of those things, not to mention the fact that he was the one that pushed RJR to become the series sponsor in 1971. Another guy who would have made a great NASCAR commissioner would have been Bud Moore, because he was a no-nonsense guy throughout his career, something that was installed in him by none other that Gen. George Patton during World War II. But Moore also did everything but drive in his NASCAR career, so he would also have been a good choice. The only true commissioner NASCAR ever had was Bill France, Sr., but when he retired in 1972, the sport lost that iron hand it so desperately needs now. It needs one supreme authority that is impartial, and it doesn't have that now. 828. NascarFan1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I feel sorry for Newman, he really got screwed out of a win that could have put him in the chase. However, I think that Truex deserved the last wildcard spot more than Newman because he has been the more competitive of the two over the course of the season. 829. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (8) Clint Dale Jr. is the only one who can intentionally spin and get away with it 830. cjs3872 posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) Except, @829, he didn't get away with it. He got hit with a pretty big penalty after that race at Bristol. 831. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Except, @829, he didn't get away with it. He got hit with a pretty big penalty after that race at Bristol." Shh... you're not supposed to interrupt someone's fantasy like that! 832. ch posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Changes: 16 - Scotchgard / 3M 20 - Husky Tools 36 - United Mining Equipment / Pitt Lite 40 - CRC Brakleen / Moon Shine Attitude Attire 55 - LG / Aaron's 87 - AM/FM Energy Wood & Pellet Stoves 88 - Time Warner Cable / HendrickCars.com 833. Anonymous posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (2) (5) Welcome to the NASCAR Wrestling Federation...where the races are staged and the points don't matter 834. ch posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now for my opinion on the controversial topics of the race... 1) MWR lost a MASSIVE amount of respect from me today 2) Since we didn't have an incar camera on the #27, I can't make a decision on the Edwards / Menard incident Since Menard doesn't seem too angry about it, I don't think we should. 835. Peter posted: 09.08.2013 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Everyone keeps saying they lost tons of respect for MWR...was the team ever that prestigious? We're not exactly talking about a world class driver here 836. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 6:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) Good Lord they just threw a phantom debris caution at Caraway. The madness is spreading. Oy! 837. JG24FanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 7:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Random stats from this race: Brad Keselowski dominates a race for only the 3rd time in his career. Denny Hamlin finished outside the Top 15 for the 12th straight race. Jeff Gordon picked up his 87th career short-track Top 10, giving him an active best percentage of .654% Gordon also increased his laps led total at short-tracks to 8006, which is very impressive considering Jimmie Johnson has the second highest active total with 3522. +Gordon has led 4431 since 2002. Jimmie Johnson finishes outside of the top 25 for the 4th straight race. 838. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.08.2013 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "MWR co-owner Michael Waltrip was calling the Truck race for Fox Sports 1 on Sunday and declined to comment to AP, saying he was too busy preparing for the broadcast. Ha! Prepare for what? To mindlessly ramble like the moron that he is? To put on his fake camera face? For somebody to explain to him the concept of "Timothy Peters"? He's always ready to run his big fat worthless mouth. He knows he's in trouble. Or should be." I found it pretty funny when Phil Parsons mentioned about two of his cars in the chase during the Truck pre-race show and Waltrip showed the most uncomfortable look on his face. He definitely looked guilty of doing something wrong. 839. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 9:11 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Michael not talking tells me he knows he is in trouble. I hope they are. What they did was really wrong and warrants severe punishment. 840. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.08.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) None of the MWR guys are talking. From the best I can tell, the drivers, owners and employees have all stayed away from Twitter. 841. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) I doubt this will work, but here's the link to a petition started to get MWR disqualified from the Chase. They've already got over 2,000 signatures. http://www.change.org/petitions/nascar-disqualify-michael-waltrip-racing-from-the-chase 842. David posted: 09.08.2013 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "They've" Maybe that should be "It's". Whatever. Even though I don't want to get my hopes up, I hope NASCAR busts MWR but good. Now, we've got the tension of the waiting period until they make their decision. 843. BON GORDON posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Love it!!! At the least teams need to learn not to pull that crap anymore. Letting a teammate lead a lap is one thing but what Clint Bowyer and Brain Vickers did is wrong....especially Bowyer. At least penalize the #15 team, its owner, and competition director. Points (driver and owner), fines, and probation. 844. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) The biggest thing is NASCAR needs to make a huge statement here. They need to seriously discourage this from happening again in the future. Don't just penalize them, make it very public so their sponsors and manufacturers are embarrassed too. They are the ones that pretty much rule the sport. Make it so they have clauses in their contract allowing them to jump the moment something like this happens. Obviously NASCAR can't directly enforce this, but they can indirectly force this. And force MWR's "Mystery Man" Robert Kauffmann to assume some responsibility here. Maybe it will make him leave Mikey behind, which would be a HUGE blow to MWR. This needs to be a huge deterrent. 845. Bronco posted: 09.08.2013 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm against penalizing Truex since he had no idea what happened until it was over, and Vickers was just manipulated into running that last lap as slow as he did. However Bowyer should get a minimum 25 point penalty and a fine for actually spinning out the car. And the three architects of this whole mess, Michael Waltrip, Brian Pattie and Ty Norris should sit out the rest of the year and pay some stiff fines. 846. JG24FanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (2) (2) "However Bowyer should get a minimum 25 point penalty and a fine for actually spinning out the car." The punishment should fit the crime. Bowyer needs to be removed from the Chase and Gordon should be added. Would any of you guy's be okay with Truex getting the axe and Newman added? In order to fully punish MWR? 847. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Would any of you guy's be okay with Truex getting the axe and Newman added? In order to fully punish MWR?" I can go either way on Truex. Yes, he wasn't involved in this disgrace, but he is in the Chase due to it. That's why I say the only really fair thing to do would be to revert the finishing order to the order before Bowyer's spin. 848. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, because Truex was the reason Bowyer spun and Truex benefited from the last caution flag and restart. Was he in on that plan, was I scenario like that discussed at MWR....maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter to me. Truex was the beneficiary and should be booted. Gordon and Newman in, Truex and Bowyer out but that's wishful thinking and would never ever happen. 849. Jon posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) lol, how is that fair david? the field had no idea what happened at the time, shortening the race 7 laps suddenly and nullifying the whole last part of the race is ridiculously unfair to the field. by far the only punishment that makes sense and is possible is that they just park bowyer and/or MWR for the weekend. i'd love to see them park EVERYONE at MWR because even though truex can't be directly implicated in the incident, he's guilty simply by association. i feel sorry he is caught in the middle, but as a whole i think MWR should be punished. sucks for truex. 850. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well Jon that last caution was unfair to Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman and unfairly benefited Logano and Truex. Life isn't fair though and either way someone is gonna be pissed. 851. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Would any of you guy's be okay with Truex getting the axe and Newman added? In order to fully punish MWR?" If you mean to the Chase, then yes. I would also penalize Bowyer by taking him out since he was the one who spun. If I ran NASCAR, I wouldn't stand for stuff like this as it can bring a black eye to the sport. I know Truex did nothing wrong, but that doesn't change that his team manipulated the race so he could get in the Chase. 852. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Everyone knows that no matter how bad the situation with Bowyer's spin was, NASCAR isn't going to alter the results of this race and kick out Logano/Truex and put in Newman/Gordon. The finishing order, as tainted as it may be will stand. That's why the best penalty would be to penalize the #15 team harshly to prevent them from any post-season recognition at Vegas, and from claiming any part of the end of season points fund. 853. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Do we have to wait till Tuesday to hear if NASCAR punishes anyone at MWR? 854. Scott. B posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Golden Horseshoe Award winner for this week: Rodney Childers, who was released from MWR because they didn't trust him with company secrets knowing he was moving to Stewart-Haas in 2014. 855. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) "the field had no idea what happened at the time" True, but there's also that jumped restart to consider. "shortening the race 7 laps suddenly and nullifying the whole last part of the race is ridiculously unfair to the field." It's more unfair that several drivers may have been robbed of a good finish because MWR altered the flow of the race intentionally. Here would be the relevant changes if my proposal took effect: - Ryan Newman wins, which very likely would have happened anyway had the caution not come out, and he claims the other wild-card. As a result, neither Logano or Truex can use their wins for wild-card eligibilty. Truex misses. - Jeff Gordon has good enough track position to sneak into tenth in points. Logano is knocked out, and because of Newman's aforementioned win, is locked out of the wild-card spot. He misses. 856. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Everyone knows that no matter how bad the situation with Bowyer's spin was, NASCAR isn't going to alter the results of this race and kick out Logano/Truex and put in Newman/Gordon. The finishing order, as tainted as it may be will stand." Bronco's right. This is far and away the most likely scenario. 857. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) The more I've thought about it, I'm still a bit unsure as to whether I would ban MWR from the Chase. Right now I'm leaning towards yes. They screwed two drivers and teams out of the Chase, so they should be rightfully taken out of the Chase as a consequence. I would also definitely ban all MWR figureheads from all Nascar tracks and premises for the next one or maybe even two years. They'd still be able to run the teams from the shop, but at the race track, no Michael Waltrip (PLEASE DO THIS NASCAR), no Rob Kauffmann, no Ty Norris, no Scott Miller. 858. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (3) (3) "Bowyer needs to be removed from the Chase and Gordon should be added." I disagree with this because he legitimately earned his way in and Richmond held no bearing on his Chase status whatsoever, having already have clinched. However, I would make it impossible for him to ever win the championship. "That's why I say the only really fair thing to do would be to revert the finishing order to the order before Bowyer's spin." That's not fair to anyone. Everyone knows those last 7 laps happened and you will never erase them from existence. However, I suppose this would be the NASCAR thing to do, since they were willing to take away Regan Smith's legitimately earned victory at Talladega that everyone saw happen. You can't say "well, ___ ___ would have made the Chase if ____ happened and ____ didn't happen." The only reasonable course of action is to penalize the guilty parties. And there's no reason whatsoever to penalize Logano, who did NOTHING wrong, by removing him from the Chase after he's already been recognized as a Chaser. Also, I don't see any reason to penalize Martin Truex Jr., he was just the beneficiary and played no part in what happened whatsoever. But I would certainly give the #56, along with the #15 and #55 teams, a harsh owner points penalty. As I said earlier, I'd like to see all three teams have their season-long owner point totals completely wiped. 859. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just as a point of order: Rob Kauffman is the listed owner for the #15 car, while Waltrip is the listed owner for the #55 and #56 cars. So, if NASCAR took severe action against at least two of MWR's teams, we might not see Waltrip for awhile. 860. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) Would any of you guy's be okay with Truex getting the axe and Newman added? In order to fully punish MWR? Yes. I'm not exaggerating when I say the future of the sport, a struggling sport, lies in the balance. MWR must get pounded. 861. Scott. B posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #853: BON GORDON, Tuesday would be the traditional day for penalties, but that timeline is not set in stone. All NASCAR has said is they are investigating and won't make any official comment until that process is completed. I doubt you'll hear anything before Tuesday, and it may be even later than that. To complicate it more, there's still the appeals process if penalties are announced, which means the Chase could start without the teams involved knowing with 100% certainty where they stand. 862. Matt G posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:04 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) I've had 24 hours to digest what I saw. 24 hours to take a step back, reevaluate the details, and cool down. But you know what? I think I'm more outraged now that I've had more time to think about it. The more I examine all of the details it took for MWR to pull off what they did last night, the more disgraceful the incident becomes. I just keep getting madder and madder and madder. First off, I just want to address something I've seen all over the internet today that's been bugging me. (And I'll apologize in advance to most of the community here for the rest of this paragraph because I'm pretty sure 99% of you get what I'm about to type - I just want to set the sage for the rest of the post. If you get all the details of what happened, feel free to skip ahead) Too many people are focusing on only Clint Bowyer's spin. That's really underselling how nefarious this whole scheme was - Instead, this was a multi layered plot by the MWR team to manipulate who did and did not make the Chase. I can NOT STRESS ENOUGH that the 15 intentionally spinning himself out was NOT enough to get Truex into the Chase. Bowyer was still on the lead lap after his spin and Truex was still out of the Chase. What finally pushed Truex into the Chase was Boyer spending two laps on pit road during the final restart and Brian Vickers running a final lap in 33.9 seconds (A FULL TEN SECONDS SLOWER THAN THE NEXT SLOWEST CAR!) to allow Logano to gain two spots on the final restart. If Logano did not get these two spots that the MWR cars all but stopped to give him, Gordon would have finished one point ahead of Logano (instead of one point behind) for the tenth spot ' And if it was Logano in 11th instead of Gordon, Logano would have gotten the second Wild Card spot by virtue of his win at Michigan. The only way the MWR cars could have gotten Truex into the Chase is by making sure Logano got into the top ten and therefore opening up that second Wild Card spot. This is important to note because all of these events together - Not just the spin - But the spin, the 15 stopping on pit road, and the Vickers dive on the last lap all become more damning when added up as one. It should leave zero doubt in anybody's mind that MWR manipulated the Chase Field and cost not one, but two teams spots. Now while you're probably thinking "Duh Matt" here, I believe that the juxtaposition of these three events makes it both easier to incriminate the parties involved, and calls for a harsher penalty on those involved. When you go over the details again, it's very, very hard to reach a conclusion much different than this: No team in Nascar history has even tried so hard, and gone so out of their way to tamper with something this important. Some folks began noting last night that multi cars teams have played games for ages, and while it's true that they have, we have never, ever seen something this extreme. Starting extra cars in the field, letting teammates lead a lap for bonus points, allowing cars back on the lead, and even moving over late in the race when a teammate happens to be battling a championship car for position at the same spot of the racetrack are all wrong, but at the end of the day, they are all conventional weapons of the multi car team. The vast majority of fans don't like them, and a few will even cry out against them, but on the whole, they are part of the package that we all put up with. What we saw last night was different. What we saw last night was a nuclear weapon, and it placed the history of multicar team manipulation at a very significant crossroads it's never found itself at before, and it's now Nascar's job to decide where things go from here. The ball is in their court now, the integrity (or what's left of it anyway) is at stake and they basically have two options. They can either bury their head in the sand / let the MWR teams off light by handing them a penalty that involves anything less then both cars being removed from the Chase Field, or they can really, really bring the hammer down. As far as I'm concerned, this unprecedented level of manipulation calls for an unprecedented penalty. As I said last night, I would penalize all three MWR cars 100 points (as well as slam them with enormous fines and suspensions) for what amounted to a team wide manipulation of the Chase Field. 100 points would drop both the 15 and 56 out of the Chase Field (as well as vault both the 24 and 39 in) and that's really the only way to send a clear message that this type of garbage is completely unacceptable on every level! A Chase spot is worth millions. MWR had one car in and tried to worm their way to two. In my mind, the only fair response here is to make it zero. A clear manifesto to teams that it's not even worth attempting anything remotely close to this nature in the future. Allowing both cars to make the Chase with a penalty is not good enough. They're still going to get the money that comes along with being in the Chase, and even if their chances of taking the whole thing are greatly diminished, there's still some motivation to do it again - especially for the organizations who care more about lining their pockets than winning. I can understand why many fans don't believe Truex and the 56 team deserve a 100 point penalty, but I don't agree with them. For me, this was an MWR organization wide scandal to help MWR racing as a whole, and when that's the type of fire you play with, I believe the organization as a whole has to fall for it. In sort, if you act as a multicar to manipulate results in this manner, you will be punished as a multicar team. (This type of penalty will also make teams like the 55 [the third wheel in the incident] think twice about taking part in such an elaborate plan.) If an organization is going to participate in such dirty business, then the organization as a whole must have it's feet held to the fire, simple as that. A huge part of the problem here is that individual teams are willing to take a sword for the mothership even if it means destroying their own day, and that line of thinking needs to change fast. Fans do not come to watch multicar teams play games, they come to watch 43 individual teams pour their heart and soul into winning each week. I'm very interested to see what Nascar does here. Anything less than removing the 15 and 56 from the Chase (and placing the 24 and 39 back in) opens up the possibility of a Wild Wild West era of multicar team manipulation - Because on some level, whether it be the potential for a Chase spot, the prestige, the $$$, or even a revenge kick on another driver, the risk might be worth the reward. I can't count the number of times I've seen Nascar penalize teams for what they refer to as "Actions Detrimental to Stock Car Racing". Well Nascar, if the Pandora's Box of multicar team manipulation that has the potential to make your sport look like a fraud in the eyes of tens of millions of fans opened up by MWR last night isn't considered one of the most serious actions I've ever seen on the "detrimental to Stock Car Racing" scale, then I don't think there's any saving you. Nascar has one chance to get out ahead of this thing before the lid flies off, and they better hope they don't blow it. 863. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right, I'll concede the "erasing the last seven laps argument". Except for Truex's so-called "guilt by association", Logano was/is under the exact same circumstances as he was. Remember, the entire reason Vickers pitted/slowed down/whatever on the last lap was to give Logano the extra spot (same goes for Bowyer, note he finished behind Logano). Logano, as a result, was in the top ten in points. Now, if that AND the caution hadn't occurred (obviously, the caution caused the incident on the last lap, but you know what I mean), Logano wouldn't have made it, as Newman would have won, which was the entire point of MWR starting the whole debacle. They wanted to help Truex, and Logano was merely a collateral beneficiary (what's the word I'm looking for here?) that was essential to their plan. 864. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:25 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) I'm absolutely with you, Matt G. I feel even more angry about it now than I did last night. Watching that Truck race earlier and seeing them show a booth shot with fake ass Michael Waltrip in the booth made me want to puke. Last night they also said he had tears in his eyes after Truex made it in. Really? You're really gonna cry after you just knowingly cheated your way into the Chase? That's the sign of a pathetic person. You don't deserve those tears of joy, you crook. You didn't earn shit. I hate it too because I like Martin Truex a lot. It's a shame to see him driving his ass off with a broken wrist, only to have it be overshadowed by this ploy developed by his scum car owner. I know we've basically been beating a dead horse with this, but I'll just say it once more. I don't know how I'm gonna react if Nascar just gives them a wrist slap over this. Two drivers got their entire seasons screwed. You would think that if Nascar frowns upon drivers bashing the product verbally, that they would be blowing gaskets over someone blatantly manipulating the product like this. My bottom line is exactly what DSFF and a few others have said. Nascar has already proven themselves over the last few years to be hands down one of the worst sanctioning bodies in sports, so if they half ass this case, they're just flushing the little bit of credibility they have left down the toilet. 865. b4il3y posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bottom line guys... the call to fix the race went over the air this time. It all comes down to how the higher up's deal with it. "Manipulating the outcome" of a race? Team orders? A precedent is about to be set. 866. b4il3y posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Annnnd to those posting about Harvick... if Dale hadn't passed away from us... he would've been second fiddle and maybe mentored a little from the stupidity he has brought to the table..like getting ran out of Martisville about 10 years ago. 867. jabber1990 posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:58 am Rate this comment: (4) (5) i'm probably going to be booed away from this site for my following statement despite all the criticism we're giving MWR why are we attacking them like we are? why can't we give them credit for having an ingenious solution (as dumb as it was) did Jr. get in trouble for pulling a very similar stunt during the 2004 Food City 500? he thought he had a tire go down or had an ill-handling car so he spun in front of the leader, got the lucky break, didn't go a lap down and didn't get the lucky Dog. if I remember right NASCAR nation got mad at him for admitting that he pulled the move. but back to my orginal point, can we please give MWR some credit for that little stunt? 868. JG24FanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:17 am Rate this comment: (6) (2) "can we please give MWR some credit for that little stunt?" No. 869. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (6) (1) I think I'm more outraged now that I've had more time to think about it. The more I examine all of the details it took for MWR to pull off what they did last night, the more disgraceful the incident becomes. I just keep getting madder and madder and madder. Me too. Although I was obviously in a rage once it was over, the full enormity of it hadn't truly set in. Now that everything you mentioned (EXCELLENT post btw) is really sinking in, there is a new level to my anger over this. To use such bush league antics to get into the chase and screw over two drivers who raced their heart out, Newman to take the lead and Gordon with a typical Gordon at Richmond car to ne in position, I just want to punch Mikey in his stupid face. Even more than normal. I cannot state this enough: a precedence must be set. MWR must get not just the book thrown at them, but the entire encyclopedia set all at once. NASCAR must cut deep. Otherwise it is just one step closer to F1 with fenders. This is HUGE, and HUGE penalties must be levied. 870. DB1995 posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can almost guarantee one of NASCARS main points in not kicking Bowyer/Truex out of the chase is that chase hats and t-shirts have already gone into production. Also my take on this is, give Truex and Bowyer guaranteed 11th and 12th points finishes (Truex 11th since hes more innocent) and give 100 owner point penalties and $500,000 penalties, and ban Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman from all track activities until the next Richmond race, also go ahead and tell MW hes done as a driver, and 100 owners points for the 55 and suspend Vickers for 2 races, putting Bobby Labonte in those 2 races. I think mine sounds very harsh, but still not even as harsh as some of you guys plans. Oh well we will see what happens! 871. Mr X posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:58 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I think one thing that is being forgotten in this debacle is that JGR attempted but failed a slightly less elaborate but similar stunt last year at Richmond, pitting Denny Hamlin who was locked in to the chase for no reason other then to give Kyle Busch a spot to try and beat Jeff Gordon for a second wildcard spot. Whilst this is the first time a multi-car team has pulled a stunt this elaborate and succeeded, plenty of multi-car team BS has been attemted in the past. The way I see it the major multi-car organizations have more power in this sport then NASCAR itself, and on the one hand I think NASCAR needs to grab the series by the scruff of the neck, and making some examples of people, but on the other I feel that if they didn't punish others for attempting some underhanded politics, why do they get to send people to the chair over succeeding. Murder is a crime, but so is attempted murder. It certainly felt like a swift kick in the balls to watch Gordon and Newman get screwed out of chase spots they had legitimately put themselves in position for. Personally I saw a white Dodge truck stopped on the backstretch with the front passenger door open and an official climbing in just before the cars pitted during the debris caution which gave Jeff Gordon the free pass. Either that was a real caution or NASCAR is getting more discrete about manipulating action, that being said it certainly took NASCAR 5-10 laps to call a debris caution for Brendan Gaughan's right front tire tread sitting near the appron at Iowa this afternoon so who knows, believe what you want. Despite 25 lap fresher tires, it was still fairly impressive to watch Gordon get himself from 2 to just one lap down, and pass the three other cars also just one lap down before Brad Keselowski caught the tail end of the lead lap, mind you I suppose double file restarts would make that a much easier task then it used to be. Newman just got screwed, however I don't really have any problem with him and Bowyer resolving their issues together so long as no one else is involved, regardless of whether it was Newman's crew that lost the lead for him, the 15 teams conversation just before the intentional spin starts with "the 39 is leading." I'm very much kicking myself over not paying closer attention during last nights post race show, I was assembling a treadmill, and with Speed channel no longer existing there's a lot less to keep you informed, I've relied mostly on links from this comments page, again despite maybe some downfall in recent months, this is still the best and most mature, and informative racing forum on the web, period. One idea I haven't seen to perhaps at least give Gordon and Newman Chase berths as 3rd and 4th Wildcards. That would at least right those who were wronged, and both of them would've started the Chase with 0 bonus points had this not happened, under these unusual circumstances I feel it could be a possibility. Truex and particularly Logano were beneficiaries of this, and had they missed the Chase I would've felt bad for them, especially Logano(never thought I'd say that). Even still I feel bad for them just being involved with this. Both of their chase berths are fairly tainted. Again I don't feel that NASCAR can come down too hard on anyone too hard for what many teams have likely been attempting for years now without even a scolding, MWR will get enough of that from the fans and the other teams. Keep in mind I would certainly like to see penalties similar in magnitude to what is done for more major post race tech infractions but anything above that is wrong IMO. NASCAR in the very near future, at seasons end would be best, needs to make it clear that team politics of this nature or even possibly any nature will no longer be tolerated. NASCAR desperately needs to step up above everyone that operates within them, get clear and consistent with rules and rule callings. Ultimately I don't think it would've made any difference but obviously Carl Edwards jumped the start significantly. It would be best if double file restarts went away all together, I've thought a little bit about how I would like to organize them, but I'll make a post about that next time we get on the subject. NASCAR also needs to make these politics less tempting, The season long cost of running in NASCAR's top division desperately needs to come down. I think it starts with a shorter schedule. It means fewer sponsors for teams, or less money being required from the same number of sponsors. 30 to 34 races would be best. Other suggestions are welcome, NASCAR is in a pretty discusting state right now. Despite far larger sums of money Formula One doesn't have this problem, at least not to nearly the same degree. Think about it. 872. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:55 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Actually Mr X, what happened last year was a Toyota thing, because if I remember right, not only did Denny Hamlin stop to help Kyle Busch, his JGR teammate, gain spots, but so did Martin Truex, Jr. Truex also did the same thing to help his fellow Toyota driver, so Truex was involved in a similar situation last year, but on the other end, though it still didn't help since Kyle Busch missed the Chase. So MWR was also involved in something similar last year, though to a far lesser degree. (Of course, the other MWR drivers finished 1-3 in this race last year, with Bowyer winning and Mark Martin finishing third.) And here's another couple of ironies. Rodney Childers is moving to SHR next year, as noted by Scott B. And of course, SHR was one of the teams that got shafted by this entire situation, since Ryan Newman still drives for them currently. And of course, let's not forget that Mark Martin, who had driven the #55 car, is now driving SHR's #14 car. I doubt Martin would ever have done what Vickers did. He's got too much integrity for that. Also, there are those that bring up the incident last year between Jeff Gordon and Clint Bowyer at Phoenix. What people tend to forget about that whole thing was that Gordon and Bowyer were not the only two involved in that incident. There were actually four cars wrecked in that incident, and one of the other two cars that got wrecked was that of Joey Logano, who was then driving the #20 car. Yes, the same Joey Logano that beat out Gordon by one point for that 10th spot in points. (Aric Almirola was the other one involved in that wreck.) What happened at Phoenix, like it or not, came full circle Saturday night, albeit in the most unfair way possible. But I do expect reprisals from this incident, and not just this year. Let's not forget who owns Newman's car, because you know that Tony Stewart won't take this lightly, and he's not one anybody wants to cross. And I don't think Gordon's going to forget what happened any time soon, either. 873. Ferret posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) IMHO, make the MWR cars, all of them, the team and owner, PLUS any team they are allied wit ineligible for points. Additionally, zero TV coverage or prize money. Or, death penalty if you want to look at it like that. Is that too harsh? No, Renault deliberately crashed Piquet Jr in Singapore, got rightfully hauled up over the coals for it. MWR shouldn't have anything less than the most severe penalty thrown at them. To use a football analogy it'd be like the Niners deliberately throwing away a key game to help the Ravens into the playoffs or throwing a playoff game. 874. Ferret posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Corollry to the above: Unable to earn Chase points this year too. 875. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:17 am Rate this comment: (1) (3) "It would be best if double file restarts went away all together" YES! 876. Spen posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David: Thanks for the welcome back. I haven't *really* been gone, just not as active as I was. 12 hour work days, plus not having a home computer until just now will do that. 877. AU_sceptic posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So CJS, if this is what you believe (about to copy/paste), then how can you be ok with drivers wrecking other drivers either intentionally, avoidably, through 'that's short-track racin' or 'boys, have at it'? "In fact, if anything, what happened last night is far worse because of the potential danger involved. That's still another reason those who perpetrated last night's doings should be met with the harshest penalties in the history of the sport. Not only does what happened last night strike at the very integrity o the sport, but someone could have gotten hurt as a result of Clint Bowyer's spin, because he could have gotten run into while sideways. It was not only an incident challenging the sport's very integrity, but one that could have also compromised the safety of the competitors. And that's something that is almost completely missed here. And let's not forget that Dale, Jr., who was right behind Bowyer when he spun out, missed two races in last year's Chase due to concussion-related issues, so there's a potential safety factor that everyone else seems to be missing that also must be addressed." 878. AU_sceptic posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:44 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Just quickly Sean - I want to clarify something you've mentioned. I come from the 'rest of the world' demographic and my background as a motorsport fan is in road racing. I have to say you're wrong to automatically group NASCAR and Oval Racing together as the one thing. Short track dirt racing is alive and well here in Aus - and we love drag racing too. You should also check out how incredibly popular motorcycle oval racing is in Europe and the UK. They even do it on ice in Scandinavia. We don't have a problem with oval racing at all, we have a problem with NASCAR. There is so much about the organization itself, the way things are run, the policies in place, as well as the way things are covered in the media, that I find so difficult to stomach. However, the brilliant on-track product is still enough to keep me watching. "(sadly the majority of NASCAR fans in past decades at least (maybe not this one) think road racing isn't real racing, while F1 fans think oval racing isn't real racing...both of them need to broaden their horizons)." 879. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:50 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Would any of you guy's be okay with Truex getting the axe and Newman added? In order to fully punish MWR? No, unless when Nascar does that, we remove Logano from the chase also. The only difference between Logano and Truex here is that Logano was the lucky beneficiary, Truex was the intended beneficiary. Using guilt-by-association or guilt-by-benefit methods for this. Yes, I'd love to see Newman added in place, and realistically, he was in. But then what do we do? Should we have a repeat of Indy Cars at Loudon in the rain? 'Oh, we let this finish get f'ed up. Better return to the before-caution-flag-running-order'. Here is what I believe the penalties should be: Clint Bowyer: 150 Owners and Drivers point penalty, and/or forced to sit out the first two chase races. The car can not eve be run by a different driver, to send a message to the sponsors so they'll know not to turn a blind eye to this, and to damage the MWR team's Owners Points. Fine of A million Dollars Martin Truex - Removed from Chase, forced to set out the first two chase races. Crew Chief suspended until 12-31-2014 from any NASCAR sanctioned event. Joey Logano - Removed from Chase. NO Penalty. No Fine. It should also be made excuisetly clear that he is not being penalized for doing anything wrong, but that it is more important that those who caused this incident should be penalized and those who wrongly benefited accidentally or not should have their places restored. Brian Vickers - Not allowed to drive any car in the Cup series for the rest of this season. Docked 100 Owners and Drivers points. Bowyer's Crew Cheif and Vicker's Crew Chief - Both suspended from any Nascar sanctioned event until 12-31-2014 at 11;59 Pm. Michael Waltrip and Rob Kauffman - Suspended from Nascar Sanctioned Events until the week AFTER the Daytona 500. Indefinte Probation afterwards. Also, Micahel should have his NASCAR driver's license stripped. Ryan Newman/Jeff Gordon: Given back Chase Seedings that they were going to get like if the Race had finished right before the 'Bowyer-itchy-arm' spin. If that wont' work, I'd be fine if just Bowyer and Truex were removed from the chase field only, Logano was kept it, and Gordon/Newman were kept out. But the penalties against Vickers, Kauffman, Waltrip, and the MWR crew chiefs should be kept. This team needs to be hit hard. Very hard. But knowing NASCAR, they will p#$$y their way out of this and give small 50 thousand dollar fines, won't dock any points or anything, simply because their Chase Shirts have already gone into production. 880. Peter posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bowyer needs to be removed from the Chase and Gordon should be added." Jeff's full of pride, so it's doubtful he'd accept anyway, if couldn't get the job done he's not going to take a handout 881. Anonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:16 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) You're all forgetting Truex & Logono still had to race their asses off too make the chase so penalizing them for what others did is asinine. Vickers he did play a part, but he is low man on the totem pole at MWR so of course he is going to follow team orders 882. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:50 am Rate this comment: (2) (9) I say remove Truex, add Gordon AND Newman, and have a 13-driver Chase with Clint Bowyer starting with a 50 point deficit to Busch/Earnhardt/Kahne/Gordon/Newman 883. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I say remove Truex, add Gordon AND Newman, and have a 13-driver Chase with Clint Bowyer starting with a 50 point deficit to Busch/Earnhardt/Kahne/Gordon/Newman" I could agree to having a 14-driver Chase, but I wouldn't remove Truex because I don't think he did anything wrong. 884. The Long Shot posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:46 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "I doubt this will work, but here's the link to a petition started to get MWR disqualified from the Chase. They've already got over 2,000 signatures." I've just signed, representing this entire community. 885. Baker posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:47 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) I will give up watching NASCR forever if they so much as give anyone involved a slap on the wrist. What took place has no place in NASCAR, however, NASCAR set a precedence when they turned the other way when Menard and Harvick pulled the same stunt. It would be typical NASCAR bullshit to look the other way for Chevy teams while coming down hard on everyone else. It would further prove the just how inconsistent NASCAR runs their show and be more evidence for their obvious favortisms. 886. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) AU_sceptic, I'm not OK with drivers intentionally wrecking other drivers. I was one of those that called for Jeff Gordon to be sat out of the final race last season because of his actions at Phoenix. I just said that I expect some kind of reprisals for what happened, but if they look like they're intentional, then punishment should be handed out there, as well. If it occurs in a normal racing situation, then I'd say let it go as is. The Bowyer-Gordon-Johnson incident at Martinsville last year is a perfect example. If something like that happened again, and it cost Bowyer (assuming he isn't suspended), I would say let it go, because it was something that took place in the natural course of events. In fact, if Bowyer had a legitimate problem Saturday night, such as a flat tire, or was hit by another competitor and spun in the exact same way he did, then it should be let go as a typical racing situation. The difference is intent. If it's an intentional act, it should be dealt with harshly, but if it's in the natural course of events, then it should be let go, and as the late Chick Hearn used to say, "no harm, no foul". 887. Jim Davis posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's really underselling how nefarious this whole scheme was - Instead, this was a multi layered plot by the MWR team to manipulate who did and did not make the Chase." Indeed, the scheme was so ingenuous it could not possibly have been conceived, communicated, and implemented in real time. Events were happening much too quickly for that. The only possible way to pull this off was if parts of the scheme were put in place before the race begin. For example, Bowyer must have been told before the race began that he might be required to spin to bring the caution out and the code to do so would be as we heard. This means that the possibility of helping Truex with a phony caution was discussed and approved well before the race began. I think this should be reflected in any penalties. Like Matt G, the sheer complexity of the scheme and the flawless execution take my breath away. If I saw this in a movie I would have trouble buying it. It almost commands admiration. Someone at MWR is a genius. 888. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Like Matt G, the sheer complexity of the scheme and the flawless execution take my breath away. If I saw this in a movie I would have trouble buying it. It almost commands admiration. Someone at MWR is a genius." I think this is what jabber was saying in post #867. But yes, it was so intricately planned. They aren't completely stupid. Stupid enough to get caught, yes, but clever enough to come up with this plan. 889. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just quickly Sean - I want to clarify something you've mentioned. I come from the 'rest of the world' demographic and my background as a motorsport fan is in road racing. I have to say you're wrong to automatically group NASCAR and Oval Racing together as the one thing. Short track dirt racing is alive and well here in Aus - and we love drag racing too. You should also check out how incredibly popular motorcycle oval racing is in Europe and the UK. They even do it on ice in Scandinavia. We don't have a problem with oval racing at all, we have a problem with NASCAR. There is so much about the organization itself, the way things are run, the policies in place, as well as the way things are covered in the media, that I find so difficult to stomach. However, the brilliant on-track product is still enough to keep me watching." I wasn't talking about knowledgeable fans here, and I wasn't even necessarily talking about NASCAR. I was talking about Formula One-obsessed YouTube commenters from outside the US who will make fun of NASCAR or IndyCar for not racing on "real circuits" with the implication that road races are legitimate and oval races are "crude", regardless of the officiating or anything else. Now, there are NASCAR or grassroots open wheel snobs just as there are F1 snobs... Anybody who talks about how an American sport should not have foreign drivers and how anything having to do with road courses is "frilly" or "sissy" or "wine and cheese", and there are far, far, far too many of those type of fans as well (never mind that NASCAR has raced on road courses almost every season). Real racing fans realize that oval racing and road racing (and drag racing fans, etc...) are just different skills, and neither is NECESSARILY superior. Most F1 fans and most NASCAR fans are ONLY fans of their main series and act like any other form of racing lacks value. Those one-dimensional fans are the type of fans I'm talking about, not you. And I believe they are the majority of EVERY series's fan base. Criticizing series officials in and of itself is fine. Saying oval racing isn't a valid sport is something else entirely. I was talking about all of oval racing, not just NASCAR. "It almost commands admiration. Someone at MWR is a genius." I was extremely impressed that somebody masterminded a relatively complex scheme and got it to work. That's why they should have the book thrown at them. It's worth noting that MWR had hired a McLaren F1 alumnus as its head engineer a few years ago, although he is no longer with the team. While McLaren isn't usually AS bad with regard to team orders as Ferrari is, they still have a bunch of shady incidents in their history. While Steve Hallam is no longer with the organization, it's quite possible he mentored whoever masterminded this scheme. "Otherwise it is just one step closer to F1 with fenders. This is HUGE, and HUGE penalties must be levied." Actually, F1's penalties tend to be much more massive than NASCAR's - i.e. disqualifying cars from the race for technical infractions, multi-million dollar fines, etc... Team orders are unfortunately a tradition there but Renault did have the book thrown at them eventually for successfully fixing the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, although Fernando Alonso still got to keep his win since Nelson Piquet, Jr. didn't bring this up until a year later after he was fired. It's going to take a quite stiff penalty for NASCAR to actually be as professional as F1 about this, and that's saying something. "Everyone knows that no matter how bad the situation with Bowyer's spin was, NASCAR isn't going to alter the results of this race and kick out Logano/Truex and put in Newman/Gordon. The finishing order, as tainted as it may be will stand." You know, I'm not so sure about this. We KNOW NASCAR was trying really, really hard to put Gordon in the chase and now they have an argument to do it. I'm gonna barf if they kick Logano out because NASCAR was screwing Logano in favor of Gordon all race, and MWR put him back in the chase. The way I see it outside forces that had nothing to do with Logano were messing with him in both directions all race. I see no justification for kicking him out, but I'm worried he might be. If they kick out BOWYER for Gordon I could live with it. I know Truex didn't do anything wrong himself, but since this was an organization-wide scheme the whole team should probably be penalized. So Logano stays and Truex for Newman. If they want Gordon in (and they clearly do), kick Bowyer out. 890. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and drag racing fans, etc..." Omit the word fans in that clause. It makes so much more sense that way. 891. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the record, I would not classify very many of the people on this site as one-dimensional fans at all but I also don't think the people who go to this site are representative of the entire racing fan population... 892. jabber1990 posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Actually, F1's penalties tend to be much more massive than NASCAR's - i.e. disqualifying cars from the race for technical infractions, multi-million dollar fines, etc... " keep in mind, one BIG difference between NASCAR and F1, there are few more zeroes involved with F1 893. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm well aware Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, and probably Lotus are much richer than any NASCAR team, but I'm not sure Marussia and Caterham are. Granted, it does seem to be only the big boys who get those kind of penalties... 894. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) A lot of people are angry at Nicole Briscoe for tweeting this: "Here's the problem....fans tend to complain. A lot. It's like the boy who cried wolf." Frankly, I see where she is coming from. How many people have you seen complain about how NASCAR needs to "bring Winston back" as if it was NASCAR's fault they left in the first place? That's just one Hell, how many of you on this very site have complained about the "Hendrick/Johnson/NASCAR" conspiracy even though deep down inside you know that's not the case? Now we have a REAL conspiracy on our hands, but Nicole is right...fans have bitched and moaned so much about the stupidest things that it would be hard to take us seriously now. 895. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^^^The above won't be a popular post, I'm sure but it's how I legitimately feel. 896. Peter posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "For the record, I would not classify very many of the people on this site as one-dimensional fans at all" Exactly Sean, my preferred racing is NASCAR but I will watch and follow just about any form of auto racing, and I respect them all 897. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt G, you really made an excellent post there. Well worth reading again. Plus, you get bonus points for using "juxtaposition". "but I also don't think the people who go to this site are representative of the entire racing fan population..." You bet your sweet life we're not. And I'm just fine with that. (Obviously, I was assuming he meant "American racing fan population") "While Steve Hallam is no longer with the organization, it's quite possible he mentored whoever masterminded this scheme." Actually, doesn't he work for MWR? Or is that the point you're making? "I'm gonna barf if they kick Logano out because NASCAR was screwing Logano in favor of Gordon all race, and MWR put him back in the chase. The way I see it outside forces that had nothing to do with Logano were messing with him in both directions all race. I see no justification for kicking him out, but I'm worried he might be. If they kick out BOWYER for Gordon I could live with it." Obviously, I want Gordon in (for selfish reasons), but it won't kill me if he doesn't get in. I'm content with him missing. Now, kicking Truex out is much more justifiable than kicking Logano out, since Truex is guilty by association, but I can still go either way on him missing or not. 898. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, you DID mean Steve Hallam. My bad. He doesn't work for MWR anymore. I didn't read that paragraph completely. 899. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "(Obviously, I was assuming he meant "American racing fan population")" Nope. I was talking about racing fans in general, in every country. Every series has snobs, and the F1-only snobs who act like oval racing is crude and road courses are the only real circuits (I've seen TONS of F1 fans online trash the Indy 500 despite its history and even being officially part of the World Championship from 1950-1960 solely because ovals aren't real racing...if the criticism was about the IRL officialdom it would be another matter) are the same as the American oval snobs who act like road racing is only for wussy foreigners. I would say the majority of the fan base for most mainstream sports is very dumb, for that matter. Granted, more niche forms of racing may be different, especially if they are not popular in one's home country. But of course I don't think of you like that. "Actually, doesn't he work for MWR? Or is that the point you're making?" The point I was making is that MWR is one of the few teams that has actually hired someone with Formula One experience who might be more able to mastermind complex team orders than career NASCAR veterans would. However, I looked and saw that Hallam left the team to move to an Australian V8 Supercar team in 2012, so he is no longer at MWR. He very well could have trained the person who did this though. 900. JG24FanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but Nicole is right...fans have bitched and moaned so much about the stupidest things that it would be hard to take us seriously now." This makes fans out to be an assembly line product with no differentiation. So, if any fans have a legitimate complaint, it doesn't matter because we're all bunched into a class that isn't worth listening to? This all sounds very stalinistic. 901. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:34 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Meanwhile, silently in the background, Ryan Newman has been named the driver of the #31 Caterpillar Chevrolet for 2014 and beyond... 902. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nope. I was talking about racing fans in general, in every country." Right. I should have added "He didn't." Ultimately, I meant that for a joke, considering who most of America's racing fans are. 903. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) MWR's plan may have been great, but their execution was poor in that they didn't even try to cover it up. There are at least three known statements that make it blatantly obvious what the plan was: "39's gonna win... well that kinda SUCKS.... is your arm starting to hurt? Itch it!" Why would a crew chief tell their driver to "itch" their arm (never mind the fact that he should have said "scratch")? Also, I could be wrong but I don't think spotters usually tell their driver who's leading when they're running their own race. They could have crafted a much less obvious secret code, such as "you're looking loose, is everything ok?" "We need that one point... I owe you a kiss" Ty Norris is an idiot to include this sentence, as it's a dead giveaway to their plan. And owing him a kiss for pitting and/or going slow? I don't think they're gay, and they're not from a culture where males kiss each other as a thank you for something. Had Norris just not said those two sentences, the guilt of MWR would have been much less clear. "You've got awesome teammates!" Shouldn't be any surprise that Mikey would give away the plan. Martin just qualified for the Chase, and the first thing you mention are his "awesome" teammates who finished in the late 20s as opposed to congratulating Martin's accomplishment? I realize he has one of the biggest mouths in NASCAR, but could he really not refrain from saying something so incriminating within earshot of others? The fact that three different statements in three different conversations indicate there was an obvious conspiracy. It would be debatable had these statements not been made, but I don't see how anyone could defend MWR given those. I always liked MWR and Bowyer, Truex, and Vickers before, but they're obviously guilty and unworthy of this race fan's respect. 904. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact IS* 905. JG24FanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (8) (0) "Here's the problem....fans tend to complain. A lot. It's like the boy who cried wolf." No. It's like the boy who cried bullshit! You know why? Because there is so much of it. We're supposed to except,without complaint, The Chase,debri cautions,the loss of the Labor day Southern 500,Michael Waltrip,Brian France,cookie cutter race tracks and an assortment of other things to complain about? Fans bitch. A lot. For a goddamn reason. 906. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "MWR's plan may have been great, but their execution was poor in that they didn't even try to cover it up." The mad scientist in the MWR control room didn't have the social skills to tell his bosses how to behave. 907. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a perfect example of an ignorant writer: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/racing/news/20130909/nascar-chase-power-rankings-clint-bowyer-spin-out/ 908. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, I think you missed the point where I differentiated between the fan populace as a whole and the people who posted on this site with the sentence: "Hell, how many of you on this very site have complained about the "Hendrick/Johnson/NASCAR" conspiracy even though deep down inside you know that's not the case?" All it takes is a little stroll through any other sports website to see just how nutty a lot of NASCAR fans are. You don't have to like any of the things you mentioned in post 905, but are they really worthy of a constant bitch-fest the way a REAL conspiracy that genuinely manipulated a race much more so than an debris caution. For the record: 1) I think the cookie cutters have put on good races this year and frankly I don't think they were as horrible as people always made them out to be. It was the cars that were horrible. 2)I don't like the Chase, but I don't hate it either 3) I don't mind Atlanta on Labor Day, but I believe Darlington will move back there eventually 4) I can't make a legitimate complaint about debris cautions because I really don't know if they are real or not. I'm more of the belief that NASCAR looks harder for stuff when the racing starts to lag than I am that they just make it up. 5) Until Saturday, Michael Waltrip had never done anything to really offend me. Most people just don't like him is what I've found out. Seriously, when has NASCAR tried to for you to accept him. 6) I'll have to agree with you on Brian France. By the way, if we are going to add suffixes to the names of WWII dictators to describe people, I think I prefer "musolini-esque" for myself. 909. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) It was obviously planned in advance, but I wouldn't call it genius. It has been mentioned before, but I alao want to say, the 15 team's "code words" were pretty damn obvious. And the 55 didn't even bother using code words. And yes, there is no way Mark would have come down pit road then. I still say take Bowyer and Truex out of the chase and put Gordon and Newman in. This is after two nights to sleep this off. And as for the "chase merchandise has already been produced", wouldn't this be a good thing? Now there would be even more merchandise available to buy. And those Bowyer and Truex 2013 chase hats become morbidly bizarre collecter items. Like the "Dewey Defeats Truman" newspapers for us NASCAR geeks. And no need to penalize Joey. He is on another team and never asked for it. But again, NASCAR's decision will decide the future of the sport. Only franchise altering penalties against MWR will prevent a future of "Formula NASCAR". Hammer and embarrass all 3 drivers, crew cjiefs, Ty Norris, and the two owners. Make their sponsors squirm. 910. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) We're supposed to except,without complaint, The Chase,debri cautions,the loss of the Labor day Southern 500,Michael Waltrip,Brian France,cookie cutter race tracks and an assortment of other things to complain about?Fans bitch. A lot. For a goddamn reason. Thank you. Were NASCAR fans complaining like crazy in the early to mid 90s? Nope. We are somplaining because tbis one kick ass sport is being run in to the ground by a bunch of morons. 911. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Thank you. Were NASCAR fans complaining like crazy in the early to mid 90s? Nope. We are somplaining because tbis one kick ass sport is being run in to the ground by a bunch of morons." Can I just say something about this? Two points really: 1) The Internet wasn't as big in the early to mid 90s as it is today. Not much of a medium for people to voice their complaints back then as there is today. Maybe a call-in radio show or sending snail mail to NASCAR. Like it or not, this factor HAS to be taken into consideration when you compare complaints of yesterday to complaints today. There is simply more access today. Frankly, I'd like to see what people would have been saying in 1998 if a website such as Twitter (or even this site) existed back then... 2) Everyone looks at the past with rose colored glasses. 912. JG24FanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Frankly, I'd like to see what people would have been saying in 1998 if a website such as Twitter (or even this site) existed back then..."- I can tell you first hand that the only real complaint back then was that Jeff Gordon won WAY too much. Everything else was fine. 913. The Long Shot posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also hidden amidst this whole controversy: Kenny Wallace will become the 10th driver to compete in 900 career NASCAR races this weekend. Wallace will enter the Nationwide race in the #29 for RAB Racing, as well as the Truck race in the #81 for SS-Green Light Racing. 914. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The one difference between this incident and RCR incident from 2011 is that Gordon (who was the victim of the spin) and Harvick (the beneficiary) were both locked into the Chase and only bonus points were at stake. This is way worse because it altered who actually makes the Chase and has a chance to win the championship. Not only the "I owe you a kiss", but flat out telling Vickers "We need that 1 point" should be enough proof for NASCAR that MWR is 100% guilty. 915. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those wanting to change the Chase, you can forget about it. Even though I believe Martin Truex was completely innocent, he still needs to be issued a penalty. If a car fails tech, the driver usually isn't responsible for that, but still receives a penalty. This is an organizational penalty, and Truex, along with his two teammates should be hammered. Don't kick out Bowyer or Truex, but they should be hammered hard enough to be eliminated before the green flag even drops for Chicago. Also, I know some thought my five million dollar penalty is asinine, but I couldn't agree more. This is one of the most unethical things in the history of NASCAR. It wasn't just a spin, but the premeditated plan that unfolded over the final laps that affected four drivers seasons, the particular race and the fans in attendance and watching on television. Also, Kauffman wasn't impressed with the scuffle at Phoenix last season, so you can beat he won't take lightly to this. I wouldn't be surprised if he packed up and left. He's admitted that he receives no profit from this, but does it for the love of racing. Well, as a businessman, he's not going to stand for getting his name drug through mud over something that he's not economically benefiting from. If he does leave, then MWR could be in huge trouble. I suspect that several key members of that organization, along with Michael Waltrip will be missing the rest of this season. If Kauffman's money is gone, then this team may be in trouble next season even with the other members getting reinstated. 916. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If they don't take the MWR cars out of the Chase, then the least they could do is automatically give them 11th and 12th place finishes and disqualify them from driver and owner points next year (and I hope they do the latter anyway). 917. MStall41 posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) If Twitter were around in 1998, I can guarantee beyond a shadow of a doubt that the boring races that year, the complete domination by Jeff Gordon, and the 5 and 5 rule would have had fans in an absolute outrage. Zachary Shawn hit it on the head. The Internet blows up issues today to be much bigger than they actually are. The fact that the complainers still watch every week should be enough evidence of that. Another thing that is often forgot about is that the people who are happy with what is going on in NASCAR DON'T POST ON INTERNET BOARDS. As such, the negative beliefs end up looking disproportionately more widely held than they actually are. The average NASCAR fan is probably fairly content with the sport, probably has a few gripes like any fan of any sport, but is otherwise relatively content. If you were to believe anyone on the internet, you would think NASCAR has a total of 5 viewers left, which is obviously bullshit. What we see on these boards are the hardcores and the outliers. This board, nor Twitter, nor anything else on the internet, is a very good judge of what the wider fan base actually believes. Feel free to disagree with me. You will be wrong. 918. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Also, it appears that The Rock is officially closing again. Coupled with this weekends events, this past week has been a difficult one for the average NASCAR fan. 919. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We're supposed to except,without complaint, The Chase,debri cautions,the loss of the Labor day Southern 500,Michael Waltrip,Brian France,cookie cutter race tracks and an assortment of other things to complain about?Fans bitch. A lot. For a goddamn reason." I think Robin Miller said it best a few years ago when he said it's in a race fan's nature to complain about almost everything. 920. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "And as for the "chase merchandise has already been produced", wouldn't this be a good thing? Now there would be even more merchandise available to buy." Another thing that comes to mind: Don't the other major leagues produce championship merchandise prior to the outcome of their championships "just in case"? There were probably a few San Francisco 49ers "Super Bowl XLVII Champions" shirts and hats ready to go to fulfill on-line/rush orders, for example. Here are my final thoughts...well until the investigation concludes anyway. I don't see NASCAR altering the Chase lineup. As much as I'd like to see Gordon and Newman replace Truex and Logano, it probably won't happen; even if it did, you'd have a different set of fans calling for heads and as someone else stated, would JG or Newman take a "handout"? I'm starting to believe NASCAR's investigation is actually nothing more than a way to soothe emotions and will be "inconclusive". Even if the hammer is dropped, MWR will appeal and I could see that slime-ball Mikey going to district court if NACSAR rejects the appeal...whether or not a judge would even hear it isn't the point, it's about MWR being slime and wanting to generate publicity and exact revenge. I'll wait to see what, if anything, comes of this...Either way the only Chicago event I'll watch next weekend will be the Chicago Bears vs Minnesota. I'll probably come here after the game for fun and check out the in-race standings at halftime. 921. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can tell you first hand that the only real complaint back then was that Jeff Gordon won WAY too much. Everything else was fine." But how reliable is personal experience in this context, especially since there was no concentrated, yet far reaching area (aka The Internet) for like minded people AND those of differing views to gather and say what they have to say. Generally speaking, we hang around and make friends with those who share our values (at least in the context of what we are gathered to enjoyed together, if that makes sense??). If I take only my first hand accounts into consideration, Governor Romney should have won handily over President Obama because I and the vast, VAST majority of people I know and hang around voted for him. Another example...as someone who grew up in a devoutly Christian household, do you know how much of a shock it was to me to learn for the first time that there are actually people who don't believe in God? Of course, in the context of NASCAR, there is another layer to it as I pointed out in post 911...people tend to remember the past more fondly than they actually lived it. It's how to proverbial "good ole days" come into existence. Bottom line...just because you and everyone you know believes one thing doesn't mean that's what everyone believes. This is hard enough today to grasp even with modern technology that can connect us to the whole world, one can only imagine what it was like before such things existed. AND just because you feel fondly about something in the present, doesn't mean you felt that way about it at the time it happened. 922. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Ricky Craven says he's sickened by what went down on Saturday night. 923. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Take a look at the Aaron's, NAPA, Peak and 5-Hour Energy Facebook and Twitter pages. I think NASCAR fans have made their point loud and clear. We have saw some terrible sponsorship backlash over the years, but this beats all. 924. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And as for the "chase merchandise has already been produced", wouldn't this be a good thing? Now there would be even more merchandise available to buy." A few years ago I remember seeing a "Dale Jarrett - 1997 Winston Cup Champion" unopened champagne bottle at a vendor's booth in Charlotte. The person working said they also made a Mark Martin one, but since neither won the championship, they were never used. 925. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And as for the "chase merchandise has already been produced", wouldn't this be a good thing? Now there would be even more merchandise available to buy." I can also guarantee you that some Chase merchandise for Gordon and Newman and even Keselowski and McMurray was already produced prior to the race. "A few years ago I remember seeing a "Dale Jarrett - 1997 Winston Cup Champion" unopened champagne bottle at a vendor's booth in Charlotte. The person working said they also made a Mark Martin one, but since neither won the championship, they were never used." My youth minister from high school got to go to the Fiesta Bowl one year. I don't remember what year it was, but it was after 1996 since Tostitos had taken over sponsorship when he went. As they were leaving the fans were handed special Tostitos bags that said "Congratulations (team name), winner of the (year) Fiesta Bowl." My youth minister said his first thought was that he wanted to get his hands on the ones they inevitably made for the other team, since they would be a collector's item and worth A LOT of money. 926. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Zackary Shawn makes salient points on memory and how we perceive events in the past. However, at the end of the day, the sanctioning body will return with likely steep points and monetary fines and possible suspensions for CC and/or owners. Deep down many of us know this is the probable road NASCAR will take because it is the safest one to travel. 927. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Ricky Craven was on SportsCenter and he seemed articulately disgusted if there is a such. 928. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) You know the longer this controversy goes on the more I think its a possibility that Bowyer and Truex could be eliminated from the chase. Woth Newman and Gordon being put in. Not saying it will but this is a full blown issue to the extreme. NASCAR going back and investigating like they are, the fan outrage, every analyst, and multiple drivers and owners expressing displeasure. I think the penalty would be unprecedented but also it would tell the teams to never try this again. 929. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Dave Despain on Race Hub!!!! 930. Scott B posted: 09.09.2013 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if MWR's previous run-in with NASCAR at Daytona in 2007 over the fuel tampering will be taken into account? The penalties against the team for that infraction were harsh for the time. Bobby Kennedy, who's still with the team, and of course Mikey himself were among those punished for their roles in that. 931. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Another example of what I was talking about in post 921. I've been a NASCAR since 1999, but the first season I really closely followed from the green in Daytona to the checkered in (back then) Atlanta was the 2000 season. And guess which season I still would say was the best season I've ever seen in NASCAR? That's right 2000. Not to mention my favorite driver won the championship that year. And I'd have to say that my all-time favorite race was the 2000 Brickyard 400. I mean what wasn't to like? A likable champion, a decent variety of winners including a couple of first timers, and (though we didn't know it at the time) it was Dale's farewell season. The people I was around seemed to enjoy a lot. But outside of my own personal biases, what made that season so great? No idea. I honestly have no idea what happened in the 2000 MBNA Platinum 400 at Dover Downs International Speedway other than Tony Stewart won it. I don't know what the racing was like, if I fell asleep during the race, or if I even watched it all. Sure I could go back and watch on Youtube, but there is no way to know if how I feel nowadays is how I felt back then, especially when you consider just how fondly I remember that season that first solidified me as a NASCAR fan. Now go look at Sean's post on the Atlanta page (post #535 to be exact). He said he had a worse opinion of that season than any Chase season, so clearly not everyone felt the way I do. 932. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dave Despain on Race Hub!!!! What did Dave Despain say? 933. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MRN's Dustin Long says race results are almost always finalized by 5pm the next Monday, especially if the race took place on Saturday night. So far no "official results" have been released by NASCAR. 934. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Also in the shadow of Spingate, Bobby Labonte will miss Chicago due to his broken ribs. 935. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What did Dave Despain say?" Well according to Jeff Gluck, Dave said he thinks the fans should be outraged. 936. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >And no need to penalize Joey. He is on another team and never asked for it. Joey is Adam Jensen? ;) >Also, it appears that The Rock is officially closing again. I saw that - where the season-ending K&N East race was cancelled because "the race track failed to meet its obligations". If they are closing down, that's a crying shame. :( Also, 44 cars on the entry list for Chicago: -Hill in the 32 -Raines in the 33, Cassill in the Falk-Hillman 40 -AJ in the 47 -Justin Allgaier in the 51 as Harry Scott takes over ownership of Phoenix Racing -Sorenson in the 95; Scott Speed appears to be history here 937. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So far no "official results" have been released by NASCAR." I noted that in my numerous trips to Jayski. I *always* use the official results to calculate the points standings using my system. 938. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I urge everyone, particularly Critic if he's still around, to listen to what Ricky Craven had to say on ESPN earlier today. Best line (paraphrased a bit), "I'm not saying something similar has never happened with multi-car teams, but this is the most brazen example ever." 939. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There are at least three known statements that make it blatantly obvious what the plan was:" Don't forget there was also Dale Jr's post race interview where he said the #15 was behaving strangely going through the corner, which is the only statement we have from someone who watched the spin as it happened. Would love to see an onboard camera from the #88 as he followed the #15. 940. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Also to the rear: Michael McDowell (#98) driver's option (at the start of the race the 98 was at the rear of the field, behind Johnson) 941. Eric posted: 09.09.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have been following racing starting with CART in the 1980's. There has been cheating and shady stuff in racing for a very time. I think what NASCAR can do about the MWR mess is limited. You can't act like the final laps of the race didn't happen and that means Jeff Gordon and Ryan Newman can't get into the chase sadly. That also means Carl can't get his win taken away either. What needs to be done is ban Michael Waltrip from being on NASCAR sanctioned races for any NASCAR series from the start of the chase to the end of 2014 season. If fox needs to find a new person to take Michael's spot for announcing Truck races and what he does for Fox during cup races, so be it. MWR doesn't have the best history in terms of not being shady considering the 2007 Daytona 500 mess with jet fuel and needs to be punished harshly as a result. There also is Jack Roush in 2008 accused MWR of stealing a Sway bar from his organization that Jack later dropped the charge of. Clint Bowyer needs 250 driver and owners points taken away. The 55 car needs to have 250 Owners points taken away since Vickers isn't getting any cup driver points this season. The crews of the 15 and the 55 need to be suspended for 36 races. The Crew chiefs of the 55 and the 15 need a huge fine beside a 36 race suspension. The owners of MWR need a 1 million dollar fine. I know a two million dollar fine is a lot, but that would give race organizations a message. 942. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The 55 car doesn't have a crew chief for next year. Scott Miller is serving as CC on an interim basis, but it was Ty Norris who was on the radio with Vickers at the end. 943. Anonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Quick question(s). Is there anything to be read into the fact that nascar.com standings are still "Unofficial" this late into a Monday after a Saturday night race? If so why not dock the #15 car 80 points before the chase reset? It would put him in 11th (with no win) 1 behind Gordon. The beauty of this is NASCAR's ability to then claim that even after the intention spin, if he had not made numerous trips down pit lane Bowyer would have still had the points to be in the chase. 944. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The longer this drags on with no word from NASCAR, the worse it is looking for MWR. It just gives the public more and more time to discuss it and to continue to let it fester. And NASCAR knows this. If they were gonna just sweep this one under the rug like they did in 2011, I think there would be a quick "no harm noted by NASCAR" release sent from Daytona Beach to try to quell things quickly. Although I still firmly believe it is the right thing to do, it is looking like a pipe dream to have the 15 and 56 kicked out. But I do think they will be penalized and pretty much removed from contention before the first race even starts. I also foresee major penalties to the crew chiefs, Ty Norris, and Michael. Really hoping the fallout gets Mikey shitcanned from Fox and off our TVs. 945. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) There are WAY too many comments on this page for me to read through, but I will give my thoughts on what the penalties should be, if NASCAR does decide that Bowyer spun on purpose to alter the race results: Do not change the actual Chase lineup (i.e. drop Bowyer and/or Truex and add Newman and/or Gordon), but penalize Bowyer, say, 25 points, and fine all three MWR teams, and suspend crew chief Brian Pattie for all 10 Chase races. That is all. 946. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR will be having a press conference at 8:15 ET tonight discussing the Richmond race. 947. DB1995 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think i have a reason Ambrose was so bad in this race, per the teams Facebook page they broke a bump stop. Of ourse this could be wrong and nobody here would care to say anything about it lol 948. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NASCAR will be having a press conference at 8:15 ET tonight discussing the Richmond race." This sounds kind of big. They don't normally have sudden press conferences at night like this. 949. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have posted my thoughts on the chase with a preview and driver predictions. I think nascar will either kick both mwr cars out, or more likely impose a points penalty that takes them(really only Bowyer) out of the championship and negates their actions and acts as a warning to other teams for future years. 950. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There will be a press release at 8 ET followed by the press conference. 951. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I feel like a complete tool about randomly leaving again after creating racing topics with people on here. There are reasons but that's no excuse. Hopefully we can continue those debates (I have some interesting stats about Jamie Mac) after this MWR incident. Everyone on here has said what I would say. But here's another thing How stupid are the people at Michael Waltrip Racing? They should be fined 1,000,000,000,000,000 dollars for being such morons. Anyone with eyes could see Bowyer purposely spinned the car around. Anyone with a brain would wonder why Brian Vickers randomly left the track at the end of the Richmond race. And both of these things helped Martin Truex Junior!!?!? WOW! What did they think would happen? They would get away with it? Clint Bowyer spins without help (brining out the caution). Brian Vickers leaves the track randomly. Both of these things get Martin Truex Jr. in the race. How stupid are they at Michael Waltrip Racing? Wouldn't they know people would catch on? 952. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 18fan where did you hear that? I can't find anything about in on the internet (or at least google and jayski) 953. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BIG NEWS!!! I haven't confirmed yet, but according to Jenna Fryer on Twitter, Newman is IN and Truex is OUT....$300K fine for MWR and all three drivers docked 50 points! Ty Norris suspended indefinitely. 954. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I heard it first on Twitter (I think the first person I saw report it was Jeff Gluck) 955. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Apparently, the penalties levied include Ryan Newman replacing Martin Truex, Jr. in the Chase, which I think is dead wrong, all three teams being it with $100,000 fines and 50-point penalties, and Ty Norris being suspended indefinitely. While those are indeed very harsh penalties, I don't think they go far enough, because more people should be suspended/banned from the sport, and I also think that Brian Vickers and Clint Bowyer should also be suspended, though only for about six months (which would include next year's Daytona 500). But NASCAR apparently is getting the point across that stuff like what we saw Saturday night can not be tolerated, but they didn't go far enough, in my opinion. 956. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also more about how stupid Michael Waltrip Racing is. NASCAR warned teams before Richmond, about multi-car teams rigging the race. "We knew there was potential for this going into this race, so I guess I would have hoped we would have been able to monitor the situation," Newman said. "This is something that's brought up every Richmond drivers meeting. It's like we saw there was a potential for fire but nobody grabbed the extinguisher." 957. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "BIG NEWS!!! I haven't confirmed yet, but according to Jenna Fryer on Twitter, Newman is IN and Truex is OUT" I like it, but Bowyer should be out too. 958. Matt G posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm guessing (an perhaps foolishly hoping) that this press conference is very, very bad news for the MWR teams. The investigation was long, 30 hours long since Nascar made the announcement early yesterday afternoon, and the only reason it takes that long is if they did find (in their eyes) damming information on the MWR teams. From there begins the long and complicated discussions of what exactly you are going to do about it (which I'm guessing they spent the better part of today doing). In addition, they are making an announcement and holding a press conference on a Monday night instead of a Tuesday afternoon when they normally penalize teams for bad behavior. Moving up the press conference 18 hours from normal tells me they want to act as swiftly as possible and the only reason it took this long is because the investigation is so complex. And what I'm really hoping is that they doing this on a Monday night instead of a Tuesday afternoon because they are going to alter the Chase Field and they want to make that public as soon as possible. I definitely have my popcorn ready for this press conference! 959. Matt G posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) If only Newman is in, the complete garbage. These tactics screwed Gordon and Newman equally. In fact Gordon was still in after the Bowyer spin. Only the intestinal stops by Bowyer and Vickers on the final restart pushed Gordon out. If you are going to put people back in the Chase, it has to be either an all or nothing situation. 960. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I want to clarify what I said in post #955. I have no problem with NASCAR placing Ryan Newman into the Chase. In fact, I would also have put Jeff Gordon in, since he was victimized by the same fraudulent sequence. But I would not have removed Truex fro the Chase. I would have had 14 drivers in (or 13, since Bowyer would have been sat out for the rest of the year). I said from the beginning that Truex should never have been penalized. What I expect to see happen is the #56 team appealing, and winning the appeal, which would then make him the 13th Chaser this year. His team had nothing to do with the incident. While NASCAR should have dealt with the other two MWR teams more harshly, penalizing the #56 team is wrong, because they did nothing wrong. 961. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2013/09/09/nascar-sprint-cup-chase-across-america-locations-drivers.html" After reading that, I don't think there are any plans to kick out the 15 or 56 from the Chase. 962. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If this is true: I'm not happy. NASCAR didn't do near enough. NASCAR is obsessed with the Chase. Shouldn't they be upset they rigged the closest Chase there (probably) will ever be? If those reports are true I'm definitely not watching Chicagoland and possibly the whole Chase. 963. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2013/09/09/nascar-sprint-cup-chase-across-america-locations-drivers.html Just from reading that, it doesn't look like NASCAR plans on altering their Chase field whatsoever, so we can all stop wishing that they kick out Bowyer/Truex. 964. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 7:59 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Jenna Fryer said that the only reason Truex falls out is because the 50 point penalty was enough to have Newman get in. It sounds like they didn't even take moral action into consideration and just did a bunch of math. It should be Truex out (Newman in), Bowyer out (Gordon in, since he would have been in before the Bowyer spin), Logano stays just because he had nothing to do with it (even if it did benefit him), and Waltrip/Norris/Miller/Kaufmann all suspended. I do like that Nascar is finally taking stuff like this seriously, but in my opinion they didn't do nearly enough. 965. The Sound posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I posted this off the top of my head when I signed the online petition: Irrespective of the past, as we all know that NASCAR has a legacy of cheating, I believe that the sport has grown into enough of an entity that fair play should be enforced whenever possible. The evidence condemning MWR is nigh impregnable, sans an outright confession from someone involved. As a Jeff Gordon fan, I will not argue that he deserves to be in the Chase, as his season to this point has not warranted such a reward, but at the same time he had nearly raced his way in! And Ryan Newman's situation is even more egregious. NASCAR must take action if they wish to be a legitimate professional sport upholding the standard of integrity. At the very minimum, I believe a severe points and monetary penalty should be assessed to the MWR teams involved, and I believe none of them should have an opportunity to win the Chase. 966. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex missing is officially on NASCAR's home page, but no other information and they don't seem to have a live stream of their press conference. It's more than I expected, given what John Darby and Mike Helton were saying. 967. Dave #38 Fan-Go Gilliland! posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) cjs3872, Truex is just as much at fault here as Bowyer. This was a move the team came up with well in advance, and Truex was well aware of what was going to happen and did nothing to stop it, he should be punished just as much as Bowyer. 968. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) On the bright side, I am gonna be pulling ridiculously hard for Ryan Newman the next ten weeks. Seriously, I really hope he wins the championship to stick it to both SHR and MWR. That would just be so awesome. And he's been running well too, so he might have a realistic chance. 969. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad NASCAR stepped up and did something about this. It's a little lighter than I wanted, but I expected they would do nothing. However, I disagree with making the points penalty apply pre-Chase, as Bowyer ultimately wasn't even affected. Overall, this is an agreeable decision on their part. 970. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So essentially, Bowyer didn't get penalized at all? 971. AveryNH posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Well with Bowyer's 50 point penalty he is over a race behind. 972. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But kudos to NASCAR for stepping up and actually officiating for once instead of running off like a puppy with its tail tucked between its legs. 973. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow what a big call on NASCAR's part. I still think Jeff Gordon should also be back in the Chase, but I suppose it's the right call, since if they put him in, they'd have to knock someone else out, which would probably be Logano, which would probably then knock Kahne out, which would be a mess....oh well. 974. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @971, The penalties were assessed pre-points reset. 975. Sean posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:11 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "These point penalties are assessed following the season's 26th regular season race and not after the seeding for the Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup." In other words, Bowyer is losing nothing. 976. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Okay, as I read further about how Bowyer has no penalties to start the Chase, that is TOTAL bullshit. Sure, the whole scam might not have been his idea, but ultimately he was the one with the steering wheel in his hand that chose to do this. He should have been kicked out of the Chase too. Dammit Nascar. Like I said before, good to see them take action here, but take MORE action!!! More needs to be done here!!! 977. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:13 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) So Clint Menard gets nothing besides his crew chief getting put on standard probation? If the purpose of the point penalty was to boot Truex out of the chase, Bowyer should've been given a 100 pt penalty so he fell out of the top 10 without a win. 978. AveryNH posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Retracting what I said about Bowyer. The penalties are pre reset which is what enables the 56 to be bumped out. So that sorta bothers me that he, clint, who affected the race outcome the most, gets no real penalty 979. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Your right Bowyer loses nothing. Great point Sean I didn't even read that. I'm so sick of this garbage from NASCAR. I'm not watching the Chase. I've had enough of these idiots running NASCAR. 980. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, I agree with you on the suspensions, though I would also have suspended both Bowyer and Vickers from all NASCAR competition for six months, which would also include the rest of the Nationwide Series season for Vickers in the JGR #20 NNS car, as well as the Daytona 500 (the suspensions would not be lifted until March of next year). Thus, Bowyer would also be out of the Chase but I would have added both Newman and Jeff Gordon and kept Truex in, which would have resulted in a 13-driver Chase field. Remember that Gordon lost out by one point (two if you count the extra point Logano had in hand due to the tie-breaker), so he should also have been added in as the 14th driver (13th if I was in charge with the removal of Bowyer). And actually, what I think happens is that the point penalty to Truex is pre-Chase, which results in him missing the Chase, but the point penalty to Bowyer would probably be after the reset, so his point total is 1950 instead of 2000. Since Bowyer made the Chase, I would think that his point penalty would be applied to the Chase standings, but I don't know if that's official or not. When I release how my reset would look tomorrow, the 50-point penalty will be accounted for, both in the pre-Chase point standings, and the Chase reset. 981. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm surprised more people on here aren't more upset about Bowyer not getting penalized. Am I over reacting? I personally think this is crazy. He rigged the race at Richmond! 982. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Bowyer, Waltrip and Pattie are essentially off of the hook? I'm not sure that I agree with that. 983. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I would like to commend NASCAR on taking pretty drastic steps by their standards. It is only right Newman gets in. He drove his heart out and was screwed. Glad for the big money fines (Kauffmann can't be liking this). If nothing else, it puts MWR in the news for all the wrong reasons which badly affects sponsorship. One thing though, I think Clint needs a chase penalty. At least 25 points. He is a master of points racing. So he needs every point he can get. That would hurt him a lot. But again, if nothing else, it pits a cloud over him for a while. Hopefully that will stunt his career. 984. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "though I would also have suspended both Bowyer and Vickers from all NASCAR competition for six months" I wouldn't be so hard on Vickers, since at least on the radio he was questioning all of this shit. And yes, ABSOLUTELY suspend Michael Waltrip. If for nothing else, because he faked tears of joy after his teams knowingly cheated their way in. The he's been trying to cover this up has been vomit-worthy. 985. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *The way 986. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really it's an unfortunate situation for EVERYONE (Bowyer, Truex, Newman, Gordon, Logano, Vickers, Waltrip, Norris, NASCAR, and the fans) involved. It didn't have to be this way if they just let it happen naturally, the way it was supposed to be. 987. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) As I think about it more, I think the better solution would have been a 100 point penalty across the board instead of 50. This would have knocked Bowyer out of the Chase in exchange for Gordon, which would rectify the situation for all who were wronged without penalizing Logano. The press release says "As a result, MWR's three teams in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series (No. 15, 55, 56) have been penalized with the loss of 50 championship driver and 50 championship owner points, respectively." Does this mean Brian Vickers now has -50 Cup points or can you not lose points if you aren't eligible to earn them? Ultimately, I think there's about half of RR who will be moderately pleased with this decision and half of RR who will be very disappointed, saying "NASCAR wronged Gordon." Likewise, I think about half of RR would have been satisfied if Gordon was placed in the Chase and about half would have claimed "Hendrick bias." Given NASCAR's history of turning a blind eye to controversy, this is about as good as could be hoped for in my opinion. 988. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Regardless, at least Michael Waltrip has finally been exposed as the fraud that we've been calling him for years. I'm sure he will spin this into a pity party to regain his followers, though. 989. AveryNH posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Per nascar press release, all three crew chiefs, Brian Pattie (No. 15), Scott Miller (No. 55) and Chad Johnston (No. 56) are placed on probation till the end of the year. Which we all know means next to nothing 990. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I think this was fair (well, to everyone except Truex, but that's racin'). Logano and Gordon were affected by Vickers' pitstop - and /that/ wasn't the same thing as a deliberate spin (you want to park your car? Well, that's your business, don't endanger other competitors on the track). I think that given the circumstances, this was the right call, although I do agree a suspension for Waltrip, identical to Norris', should have been levied. 991. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) >Does this mean Brian Vickers now has -50 Cup points or can you not lose points if you aren't eligible to earn them? That's...an interesting question. "Negative points" are not without precedent - after the "rocket fuel" incident at Daytona Mikey had -16 points for awhile... 992. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I would think that his point penalty would be applied to the Chase standings, but I don't know if that's official or not. When I release how my reset would look tomorrow, the 50-point penalty will be accounted for, both in the pre-Chase point standings, and the Chase reset." I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't apply two penalties handed down at the same time to the points standings at two different points in time. Anyway, I wish NASCAR would create a new rule saying all points penalties incurred during the regular season will also be applied post-reset. I think it's been mostly forgotten by now, but Matt Kenseth won a race with an illegal engine component, and (post-appeal) not only does not suffer a penalty, but he gets the 3 bonus points for winning! It's a wonder more Chase-contending teams didn't race blatantly rigged cars just to try to get bonus points. 993. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Mike Helton says NASCAR couldn't determine if Bowyer deliberately spun on purpose. I'm not sure how much more evidence is needed. 994. AveryNH posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to Mike Helton there wasn't Conclusive evidence Bowyer's spin was on purpose. 995. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lighter than what I was expecting, but still very drastic by NASCAR's standards. Since Newman was screwed worse than Gordon, it's only right that he should get in. 996. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can MWR appeal this? 997. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess, overall I should be happy that some type of justice has been served. And yes OldSchoolNascarDude, it is nice to see that MW has finally been revealed to be a fraud. I just wish they would have done a little more to Bowyer. He was the one controlling that car. He could have ignored team orders and let it play out, but he chose the manipulation and Michael Waltrip fraud route. So I feel like something should have been done to him as well. Oh well. Go Newman. 998. Schroeder51 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) While I personally would have been even more harsh than NASCAR was, I'm happy with the penalties that were handed out-EXCEPT for the fact that Bowyer's penalty won't affect him in the Chase. He should have to start the Chase 50 points behind everyone else. Not penalizing Bowyer means he could still go on to win the championship and basically shove it in NASCAR's face. Still, I must say I am genuinely surprised NASCAR took any action at all. I was fully anticipating them to determine that no wrong-doing had occurred and sweep it all under the rug again. Props to them for at least taking some kind of stand against this and showing that behavior of this kind will not be tolerated. 999. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To answer my own question, MWR can appeal, but Truex can NOT be reinstated into the Chase, according to Bob Pockrass. 1000. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why was Brian Vickers penalized? 1001. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) The more I think about it, the more unhappy I am Clint got nothing. I still expect the public fallout from this to have an ill effect on him. And as much as I want to see Mikey suspended, forcing him to come to the track in a negative spotlight. As much as he loves the spotlight, he hates a negative light. His integrity is officially in the commode and this taints his organization yet again. Jet fuel, stolen sway bar, the Daytona 2011 magic spoiler, and now this. Hopefully this causes Fox to can him and Kauffmann, his lifeline, to walk away. 1002. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Murb, that's why the suspension I'd hand Vickers would be six months, instead of longer, like a year. But remember that the suspension I'd hand Vickers would also include the Nationwide Series, in which he's a championship contender, so it would hurt him there, as well. Remember that the suspensions would cover ALL of the national touring series. And I would probably suspend Bowyer for one year, now that I think about it. I'll be very interested in seeing what the official Chase points look like come Friday, because I would assume the 50-point penalty to Bowyer would be post-Chase reset, as will be the case with my standings. As a result, Bowyer would drop to seventh with his 50-point penalty, which would carry over to the Chase, due to the seriousness of the offense. But if NASCAR is not going to carry the penalty over, then Bowyer is effectively not penalized at all, which is dead wrong, because if not for is spin, none of what followed would have happened. What I think NASCAR might do after double checking the Chase points is to amend their ruling and carry Bowyer's penalty to the Chase, which would be fair if they're not going to penalize Bowyer any further. Remember that Bowyer had no wins, so he had no bonus points to start with. 1003. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) >Why was Brian Vickers penalized? Because he was ordered to pit to help manipulate the results, and the team as a whole is getting hammered. 1004. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "I think it's been mostly forgotten by now, but Matt Kenseth won a race with an illegal engine component, and (post-appeal) not only does not suffer a penalty, but he gets the 3 bonus points for winning! It's a wonder more Chase-contending teams didn't race blatantly rigged cars just to try to get bonus points." In Kenseth's defense, the harshness of the original penalty was ridiculous. We were talking about a connector rod that weighed less than 2 grams (isn't the less heavy than a feather???) lighter than the tolerance. I mean that could have been a chip of paint that fell off when someone dropped it. Not to mention, JGR gets their engines from a third party, Toyota, and their penalty was actually INCREASED post-appeal. 1005. Jack posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, NASCAR will apply Bowyer's penalty pre-reset. 1006. 18fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Helton said the most damning evidence was the radio communication between Ty Norris and Brian Vickers and Vickers subsequent questioning of the orders. 1007. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So I understand now why Jeff Gordon isn't in, because the 50-point penalties to each MWR car affected the standings only enough to leave Truex out and Newman in, but I still don't like it! Especially since Bowyer's penalty (like his teammates') was assessed PRE-CHASE! Meaning the 50-point swing is assessed before the reseeding! He not only stays in the Chase, but he is still only 15 points behind! But, I suppose it was the only reasonable option NASCAR had...so, I suppose I agree. 1008. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "We were talking about a connector rod that weighed less than 2 grams (isn't the less heavy than a feather???) lighter than the tolerance. I mean that could have been a chip of paint that fell off when someone dropped it." They paint those? 1009. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Lemme rephrase what I said. I agree with the penalties NASCAR handed down. What I don't like is that it left Bowyer in the same spot he was in, and Truex out (and Gordon out). That's what I meant. 1010. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) The most important question in all of this is this...are they gonna fly all the drivers, Brooke and Jaclyn, and the trophy back to Richmond so they can stage the Chase photo all over again? Or will they use cheap photoshop? 1011. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Murb, that's why the suspension I'd hand Vickers would be six months, instead of longer, like a year." lol, A six month suspension seems pretty hard to me. Like I said, he was questioning it on the radio. Yes, he himself made the choice to pitch in with this garbage, but I think his situation definitely isn't as bad as the blatant Bowyer spin, where Bowyer didn't even think twice about the consequences. To tell the truth I don't know what I would do to Vickers. Maybe just a really harsh probation or fine or something. He's in a tough spot because he's not running for Cup points this year, and it doesn't really make sense to take away his NNS points since it didn't happen in that series. I know I would definitely hammer the hell out of the 55 and their all important "quest for the Owner's Championship". But I still think a six month suspension from all Nascar competition for Vickers is a bit too much. And I think it would be too much even for Bowyer, even though I feel he should be heavily punished. The only people I would give a long suspension like that to would be the figureheads. The drivers made dumb choices to follow through with it, but it was Fraudtrip, Norris, and probably Scott Miller who devised all of this. So if anyone should spend a lengthy amount of time away from all Nascar tracks and facilities, it should be them. 1012. MStall41 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Bowyer definitely should've received more, but overall I'm happy with this ruling. Newman deserved to be in. Bowyer will have justice served to him on track these next few weeks. 1013. JT_Racing posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Good job NASCAR, way to drop the hammer!!! 1014. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But 83andJoe, since Vickers is not even eligible for points in the Cup Series (since he's getting points in the Nationwide Series), how does the 50-point penalty even penalize him? That's why he needed to be suspended from competition in ALL of NASCAR's touring series, because he wasn't really penalized, either. That sanction had no bite at all. If they wanted to hammer Vickers, they should have transferred those points to his Nationwide Series standing, or suspended him from competition there. And Jack (#1005), if that's the case, then Bowyer is not getting penalized at all, either. Funny how NASCAR is handing down these stiff penalties, but the guilty drivers, Bowyer and Vickers, are not really getting penalized at all, since one is not even eligible to earn points in the Cup Series and the other has all his Chase points, while the one innocent driver in all this (Truex) was the one really hammered. Talk about reverse logic. I think NASCAR may take another look at this and decide that Bowyer's penalty should, in some way, carry over to the Chase. How they dealt with Bowyer doesn't add up at all. 1015. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >I know I would definitely hammer the hell out of the 55 and their all important "quest for the Owner's Championship". Which is DOA anyway as they're not in the owners' Chase. 1016. Matt G posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I am so, so pissed at how easy the 15 got off with the reset. Nascar is SO, SO stupid!!! I have to go cool off. 1017. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This wasn't a master plan or about a spin. It's about a split-second decision made by Ty to try to help a teammate. I stand by my people."-Michael Waltrip 1018. DB1995 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I dont even know why were worrying about who makes the chase once Chicago comes in the 48 will probably win and be on cruise control for his greatest 10 race stretch of races ever, as Toyotas have engine failure after engine faikure and the Fords arent serious contenders even a little bit . Also Bowyer should be out and Truex should be in, im not getting the point where Gordon has deserved the chase this season even my favorite driver has had a similar season and he didnt deserve it either 1019. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Which is DOA anyway as they're not in the owners' Chase." Which is why I would transfer an automatic DQ to their owner's points next year. 1020. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And to add to my comment 1019, I would DQ ALL the MWR cars from any shot at the owner's championship next year. 1021. AveryNH posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Brendan Gaughan mentioned this on Twitter, that Michael Waltrip owns the three harshest penalties in nascar history. Whatever integrity Waltrip ever had is, for me at least, completely non existent. I lost plenty of respect for him after the jet fuel debacle. And now, whatever credibility he had is gone. I wish nascar would've indefinitely suspended him too. 1022. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This wasn't a master plan or about a spin. It's about a split-second decision made by Ty to try to help a teammate. I stand by my people."-Michael Waltrip The Madden Cruiser doesn't hold a candle to the bus Ty got thrown under. 1023. JT_Racing posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @DB1995 As a #48 fan, I sure hope you are right, but after four straight races like they have had and I'd say '... be on cruise control for his greatest 10 race stretch of races ever ...' is quite a stretch itself. 1024. joey2448 posted: 09.09.2013 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip on Twitter -- "This wasn't a master plan or about a spin. It's about a split-second decision made by Ty to try to help a teammate. I stand by my people." 1025. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And to think...a little over 48 hours ago the most unpopular thing that could happen in the Chase this year would be Jimmie winning his 6th championship. Is it fait to say a win by Bowyer would be less popular? 1026. David posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So yeah, no Chase for Truex this year it looks like, barring a miracle run through Summer." The statement is made prophetic again. 1027. murb posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "This wasn't a master plan or about a spin." Even though they made the "I bet your arm is starting itch" code phrase. lol 1028. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Michael Waltrip basically tossed Ty Norris under the bus in his statement, then picked him back up. His quote is obviously a lie, due to the Pattie/Bowyer codes. 1029. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well one day we'll all be able to tell our kids where we were when NASCAR actually decided to do the right thing...sort of. 1030. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Well I stand corrected about NASCAR not making any changes to the Chase field. Good for Newman to get a Chase spot even if he didn't get the win, but it absolutely sucks that Truex is out after driving his heart out with the broken wrist and keeping Jeff Gordon behind him for most of the race. He also couldn't have known who caused the spin and how it was supposed to be for his benefit. Cannot believe that Bowyer is getting away with no penalty whatsoever and is still on the same playing field as all the other 2000 point drivers. Hell, Carl Long had the book thrown at him in 2009 for a non-racing infraction. "That's why he needed to be suspended from competition in ALL of NASCAR's touring series, because he wasn't really penalized, either." Why should Vickers be penalized at all, when he was essentially tricked into going along with Ty Norris's plan? Given that he's the new driver at MWR and wasn't running for points at all, what else could he have done? 1031. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) How exactly did Brian Vickers pitting manipulate the results? 1032. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) I mean its not like Bowyer wasn't effected at all. He got docked 50 points but for some reason I still feel my guy was cheated too! In my eyes Gordon should be in. He's none too happy either reading his Facebook and Twitter posts. Doubt it will do anything but he needs to fight this! I don't care! 1033. Bro Jackson posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Vickers was ahead of Logano but not Gordon, so by letting Logano past, he gave Logano the needed point to leapfrog Gordon, get 10th place in points, and free up the wild card for Truex. 1034. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) I'll say this. Jeff Gordon is one unhappy driver right now. Not because he wasn't inserted into the Chase, but rather because the driver that started this whole mess, Clint Bowyer, is not getting penalized at all. He feels bad for Martin Truex, Jr., but he's unhappy with the lack of a penalty given to Bowyer, because he's apparently going to start the Chase exactly where he would have if none of this had happened. I think Gordon's views on that are just about unanimously agreed on by those on this forum. 1035. Bronco posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He got docked 50 points but for some reason I still feel my guy was cheated too!" He got docked 50 points prior to the reset, which puts him in seventh for the regular season standings (which means nothing). As far as the Chase is concerned, he is still starting with 2000 points, just like the other winless drivers and wild cards (Dale Jr, Kurt Busch, Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman). 1036. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:26 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I'm glad NASCAR penalized MWR for that stunt but both Bowyer and Truex should of been booted from the chase and docked a 100 points along with Vickers. This does bring some minor redemption for Newman given as he was the one who got screwed the most by this bullshit. 1037. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Oh okay. Thanks Bro Jackson. But did he need that spot to get up by a point? Because even if they tied, Logano held the tiebreaker over Gordon. 1038. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, another unhappy driver among the Hendrick Motorsports contingent has to be Dale Earnhardt, Jr., but for a completely different reason. His Washington Redskins are getting clobbered at home by the Eagles. The score as of this writing is 33-7 PHI. 1039. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe Gordon should do something about it. Hendrick and now NASCAR have seemingly taken advantage of him for a few years now. He shouldn't let Clint do it, too. And before people start drawing comparisons to last year, this is a totally different feud. 1040. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Not enough! I guarantee you that Gordon and Rick Hendrick with be fighting this with NASCAR. He's not just gonna sit back and let this slide. However I dont think it will do anything like I said before. 1041. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh okay. Thanks Bro Jackson. But did he need that spot to get up by a point? Because even if they tied, Logano held the tiebreaker over Gordon." You're absolutely right. They apparently did that as insurance in case Gordon gained or Logano lost a position, but in the end Vickers' stunt proved to be unnecessary. "Hendrick and now NASCAR have seemingly taken advantage of him for a few years now." Yeah, because the timing of cautions prior to that final one Saturday night was totally not directly beneficial to Gordon or anything... I've seen the "Hendrick wants to screw one of his two most marketable drivers" arguments several times around here before, but now NASCAR is in on it too? I guess NASCAR would rather an unmarketable drone win 8 championships so they pull in less money every season. 1042. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In my opinion NASCAR halfway got it right. I feel bad for Truex, it wasn't his fault, but then again he did choose to have Mikey as his owner. Good for Newman, he deserved to be in. But can someone explain to me how Clint gets a 50 point penalty, but then again doesn't actually get a penalty at all just because of the timing? I thought once the race was over and considered official the points were already reseeded. As for Gordon, I don't think they put him back in because there's no way to be certain where Logano would have ended up(although it is debatable). I would say that this was a half assed effort, but then again that's more ass than they have ever given us before(or maybe less, depending on how you view it). 1043. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) (Yeah, because the timing of cautions prior to that final one Saturday night was totally not directly beneficial to Gordon or anything... I've seen the "Hendrick wants to screw one of his two most marketable drivers" arguments several times around here before, but now NASCAR is in on it too? I guess NASCAR would rather an unmarketable drone win 8 championships so they pull in less money every season.) I'm speaking from the Jeff Gordon mindset, not necessarily my opinion. If I was in his shoes, my thinking would be to stand up to Clint Bowyer or be thought of as one of the softest drivers in the garage. He's obviously upset by tonight's ruling, according to his Twitter comments. 1044. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) At least they did something. Glad to see they used article 12-4 since judging by ESPN's response and the negative response of many fans...I'd say this whole thing was certainly detrimental to stock car racing. Glad to see Newman in. Too bad for Truex and screw Bowyer. Of course, NASCAR couldn't find anything conclusive about the spin itself, which, honestly, is a tough thing to prove. I feel the 50 points being docked aren't enough and I'll leave it at that. This years Chase will be nothing but a joke anyway. It's tainted by this controversy already and it hasn't even started. It seems like it will end up being a #48 runway anyhow. Sure, they've had some crumby runs since they clinched a spot, but that means nothing. 1045. Bro Jackson posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Bro Jackson Fearless Prediction 2.0: Clint Bowyer wins the Sprint Cup. No, wait. I can't do that. It would piss me off way too much. Gotta think of another one. 1046. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not sure penalties are necessary from. The four major sponsors are taking a beating from fans right now. Combine that with Rob Kauffman's integrity, I think the potential fallout from this will be significant over the next 12 months. MWR needs to make a positive PR move fast. The original statement isn't doing them any favors. Either way, driver introductions should be fun this Sunday. 1047. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apologies from my last comment. I left out the word "NASCAR" in the introductory sentence. 1048. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.09.2013 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) If it wasn't for the chase, we wouldn't have to worry about manipulations for the Championship. 1049. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Lol at Michael Waltrip. I never had any harsh words for Michael Waltrip and Ithought what DSFF and others said about him on here was crazy. After this incident and him blaming the whole thing on Ty Norris I think it's pretty obvious the kind of person he is. 1050. 83andJoe posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >If it wasn't for the chase, we wouldn't have to worry about manipulations for the Championship. At the very least, docking Bowyer 50 points would be meaningful. 1051. Eric posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I don't think it is a sure thing that Clint will finish in the top 3 in points this year in the chase. My thinking is Jeff Gordon is still going to be pissed at Clint's move at Richmond and will attempt to take Clint out Loudon, Martinsville, or Phoenix. 1052. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) AS upset as he was with Bowyer's move Eric, and he seemed to be the most outspoken and opinionated driver about it, even more than even Dale, Jr. was, Gordon's reaction to the ruling was more about NASCAR not levying the points penalty to Bowyer as a post-reset penalty, instead of a pre-reset one, which in effect meant that Bowyer was not penalized at all. He said that when he found out about what had happened, he felt worse for Ryan Newman than he did his own efforts that failed, so once he found out about what happened, he's been an unhappy camper. In the old days, I'd say watch out for him at Chicago, but he'll likely be a non-factor because his car may not be uncompetitive. 1053. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I think you're gonna be proven wrong again cjs. Gordon's cars have improved. Nothing worse for competition than a pissed off determined Jeff Gordon. Even if he is older. I have a strange feeling he will be strong in the last ten. He has nothing to lose. R&D no way! 1054. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not saying he's gonna win five races or anything but a win or two and eight top tens is not out of the question. Things can and hopefully will change for team #24. 1055. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "If it wasn't for the chase, we wouldn't have to worry about manipulations for the Championship." I disagree. Something like this could have just as easily happened at Homestead or Atlanta. 1056. 12345Dude posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great people are determined by how well they react in crisis. No matter what you do. When you're in a crisis situation and how you handle it, that separates the men from the boys. It's easy to have a good attitude when you're having success and when you're doing great. That doesn't show your true character. Great people don't struggle in crisis, they thrive. They overcame it, and not only do they survive, they use it as a launching pad for future success. (motivation, the key to success) I'm looking at you Clint Bowyer, Jeff Gordon, Martin Truex Jr, Brian Vickers, and the rest of Michael Waltrip Racing. I think we know how Michael Waltrip stands on this topic. (BLAME TY NORRIS!!) 1057. cjs3872 posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) BON GORDON, even if Gordon runs strong in the final ten races, he still has the albatross known as Alan Gustafson, which will hold him back. But HMS has no reason to give him competitive cars the rest of the year. The gave him the best they had so he could make the Chase, but as was the case last year, he was the last priority at HMS, and when they were sure the others were in the Chase, then they concentrated in Gordon, and he ran his best. His best races last year were the ones leading to the Chase, as they were this year. The difference, of course, is that Gordon made it last year, but didn't this year, so HMS would now have no reason to give him good cars. In fact, if they give him good cars, that would actually work against their Chase drivers, because he would certainly beat two of them. But even if Gordon is given good cars, his crew chief will keep him from winning, if team politics don't. 1058. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just found out about this, and I'm glad to see that NASCAR didn't let this slide. This was the ultimate test to see if NASCAR lets obvious cheating go, and they passed. 1059. BON GORDON posted: 09.09.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think you're wrong this time but we'll see. Alan isn't great but his race calls are not his decision alone. I think Gordon will be fine. Ran great at Lowes, Texas, Martinsville, can win at Dega if things go right, he's good at Homestead, Phoenix, and while he did struggle at New Hampshire I think he'll improve how he runs there. I am worried about Chicago this weekend and Kansas but that's it. He can still get Top 15 runs there. 1060. Ryan W posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "While Hamlin did intentionally bring out a caution, I'm almost certain it was NOT for Kyle Busch's benefit. It was for his own benefit. He was caught and penalized multiple laps. " None the less, it changed the outcome of the race and his teammate got back in it because of it. 1061. Ryan W posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Nascar can finally say they got something right for a change. I'm sure a lot of people thought they wouldn't do anything, but after reading more up on it and what happened it's easy to see how things went down. They really had no choice to put Newman in there and take Truex out to keep the little respect and integrity that they have. It would be hard to put Gordon in for several reasons. No way they could put him in there. I would love love love for Newman to win the title now to put it in everyone's face (mainly Kyle Busch and Tony Stewart). 1062. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) Michael Waltrip is a damn clown. "I stand by my people, but it was totally Ty's doing. See! I am a good guy, I am standing up for my people. But that guy right thefd totally did everything". 1063. Ryan posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip is the Craig James of Nascar 1064. Kyle posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) How long until the MW in MWR becomes RK? Waltrip is just a figurehead at this point. 1065. Baker posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (7) I cannot believe you people. You know good and well NASCAR would have sat on their hands and done nothing if Hendrick pulled the same stunt or letting a Chevy team get away with it like the did with Harvick and Menard. I am not saying you're hypocrites or that wanting a penalty is wrong, but seriously how can you be more upset about some team schemes to get all theirs cars in than the year after year inconsistent rulings that bored heavily on blatantly obvious favortism? Goodbye NASCAR you just lost a fan forever. 1066. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I have a conspiracy theory of my own as I believe that CJS is secretly sabotaging Gordon's Cars so he would run terrible during certain races and then afterwards he'd come up on RR info and say see I told you he would have a miserable performance today it all makes perfect sense. 1067. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I said this earlier and I will say it again...what happened on Saturday night was a very unfortunate situation for all involved that could have been avoided if everyone just did what the whole point of racing is...go hard, finish as high as you can, and let the pieces fall where they may. 1068. Kyle posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is no comparison between Menard and Bowyer. I never believed the RCR conspiracy theories back in 2011, this was just so blatant that it's really indefensible. 1069. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Goodbye NASCAR you just lost a fan forever." To be frank and maybe even a little rude, sir...bull shit. 1070. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm glad to see Newman in the Chase, as he drove his ass off to have the performance to be able to get in it only for MWR's stunt to manipulate the result. Good to see him get in and for them to kick out Truex. I'd have also taken out Bowyer as well if I ran NASCAR since he was MWR's main puppet in this. 1071. Matt G posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) NOT GOOD ENOUGH NASCAR!!! They had a chance to send the right message here, and while I believe their intentions were in the right place, they failed miserably at delivering an acceptable punishment! As far as Michael Waltrip is concerned, I'd like to issue an apology to every human being on this Earth who has ever said anything negative about this man. While I never believed he was clean as a whistle, I did feel as though some folks like DSFF were always a little too hard on him. I was as wrong about that as I have been about anything in my life. Michael Waltrip is a cheat, a liar, a phony, a coward, a loser, and a fraud!!! This parasite and his organization are full of more S**T than every cesspool in America combined, and as they again displayed tonight with Waltrip trying to deflect blame away from himself and minimize the incident, they can never, EVER be trusted. What a disgusting pile of trash! If I ever break down in front of a Napa store, I will walk 30 miles in a driving snowstorm to the next nearest auto parts store just to avoid doing business with an organization that associates itself with this crook. Now as far as Nascar is concerned, they once again failed to get an important decision right. On the surface, these penalties say not to cheat, but in reality, they say "just do a better job when you cheat next time". Nascar explicitly stated that they have NO COLCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that Bowyer's spin was on purpose. You've gotta be shittin me Nascar!!! What evidence you need besides Bowyer himself walking up to you and admitting guilt? Every former driver believes the tape was suspicious, Dale Jr. (a guy who knows a thing or two about spinning on purpose) said it looked suspicious, the 15 team used an obvious code with their "it must be getting hot in here" BS right after noting that the 39 was going to win, and this was all juxtaposed with the 15 and 55 slowing down to hand Logano two spots just minutes later. How in the blue hell can any sanctioning body not consider the evidence compiled there damning enough to believe that Bowyer's spin was on purpose? This also tells us that if the folks at MWR weren't stupid enough to do their dirty dealings on the radio of the 55 team, they would have gotten away with all of it - A thought that's absolutely frightening in my mind. Next time, all MWR has to do is come up with a code for the 55 team (like they had for the 15 to intestinally spin out) instead of openly telling him to pit because "we need that one point". Another problem here is that Nascar does not apply penalties based on the context of what happened. What I mean by this is that they clearly don't take the Championship picture into consideration when assessing these penalties because they don't want to get involved in what they call 'ripple effects'. So at the end of the day, we're just lucky that a 50 point penalty to the 56 gets one of the two drivers into the Chase who deserves to be competing for the Cup on Sunday. But only giving the 15 team a 50 point penalty before the Chase reset and letting him not only stay in the Chase, but also do so without any real impactful penalty makes Nascar look as stupid as Michael Waltrip is dishonest. I simply can't put into words how asinine I believe this part of the decision was on Nascar's part! - And it also again drives home the fact that Nascar does not believe the 15 did anything wrong with the spin and are only penalizing MWR as a whole for the actions they heard on the 55's radio. If you're Nascar, how can you possibly believe that fans won't think your sport is a fraud if you allow Bowyer to compete for the Championship without penalty? The way he's running, he could actually take the whole thing too (GAG ME!!!) and that's completely unacceptable. In fact, just him being in contention over the next few weeks after what he did is unacceptable. What this also tells me is that Bowyer and the MWR team could receive further penalty if Bowyer is stupid enough to admit the spin was on purpose since Nascar already made it quite clear that they don't believe the Mt. EVERST pile of evidence sitting right in front of their nose is enough to incriminate him. So if I'm a media member, I go out of my way to grill him and get him to admit his nefarious action. We just need five little words..."I did it on purpose" and then Nascar has to reopen the case again and possibly give Bowyer a penalty big enough to drop him from the Chase Field. After today's 50 point dock, Bowyer is just 29 ahead of Gordon at the end of 26 races. So that means that if Bowyer admitting the spin is worth at least 30 more points of evidence, than he can still fall out of the Chase. I hope the media realizes this and does everything possible to catch him in trap and give this fraud what he really deserves. If the green flag drops on Sunday with Bower in the same position he's in now, Nascar gets an 'F' for the actions they took here. 1072. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.09.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "And to think...a little over 48 hours ago the most unpopular thing that could happen in the Chase this year would be Jimmie winning his 6th championship. Is it fait to say a win by Bowyer would be less popular?" for Bowyer, this was his Rusty wrecking Darrell at the Winston moment. This will forever change his popularity with NASCAR fans. Saturday afternoon he was almost universally liked by NASCAR fans, now he will be among the most hated drivers. 1073. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jimmie Johnson's finishes in the last four races have all been 28th or worse. 1074. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) Shoutout to everyone on Twitter who is trashing Mikey in response to every phony "feel sorry for me" status he's been putting up tonight. I've seen some great things said to him, like "How can you stand by a person yet simultaneously back a bus over them?" and "Are you gonna man up and apologize to Jeff Gordon about this?". He deserves to be trashed HARD for this, especially since most people believe that the consequences should have been even greater. 1075. AveryNH posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) If Michael Waltrip is the Craig James of nascar Clint Bowyer has gotta be O.J. Simpson. 1076. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Jeff Gluck had a poll on twitter asking if fans were satisfied with the penalty. Over 2,500 have already responded and 73% said no. 1077. The Long Shot posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (6) (0) "This was the ultimate test to see if NASCAR lets obvious cheating go, and they passed." Yeah, if a D+ is considered a passing score. It's good that NASCAR actually did discipline MWR, but it was nowhere near enough. The only part that I liked was Ryan Newman replacing Martin Truex in the Chase. Other than that, I think Matt G. said it all in his last post. And for the record, no, I don't think Jeff Gordon should have been placed in the Chase unless Bowyer was disqualified. "Goodbye NASCAR you just lost a fan forever." Talk to you this weekend then, Baker. "I have a conspiracy theory of my own as I believe that CJS is secretly sabotaging Gordon's Cars so he would run terrible during certain races and then afterwards he'd come up on RR info and say see I told you he would have a miserable performance today it all makes perfect sense." If that's true, then imagine what he's doing with Bubba Wallace's trucks. 1078. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @1066 I think you may be on to something. 1079. Kyle posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) Their logic behind the penalties doesn't make sense. They say there is no conclusive evidence that the 15 spun on purpose, and they are essentially being given a penalty based on what happened with the 55. The problem is the 55 didn't keep Newman out of the chase he kept the 24 out by giving the 22 an extra point. The 15s spin cost the 39 but what the 55 did had no effect on the 39 making the chase, so why are they putting the 39 instead of the 24? 1080. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (4) (0) "so why are they putting the 39 instead of the 24?" Newman tied with Truex for the second Wild Card, but with this 50 point penalty for Truex, that tie goes away, so Newman gets it. But Gordon should get Bowyer's spot, as far as I'm concerned. The ultimate punishment that MWR should have to pay is a guarantee that they won't win the championship this year. 1081. Daniel posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (1) (7) I hate stupid assholes like fatass Bristol, Tennessee's mike helton. The point deduction for bowyer not at all alright with me. To say minus 50 points for truex, jr. is one point made but to say that a minus 50 point deduction for bowyers antic of causing a caution on purpose is equal and not deserving of greater point amount deduction is a wrong assumption. And penalties against a organization as a whole and not against just drivers is bullshit of a claim by mike helton cause the drivers are the ones going for a sprint championship a organization does not get to share a sprint trophy among drivers. God damn dumbass mike helton got it wrong. It ends today for nascar and Daniel blake stroup so the f**k what mike helton just let Gordon get screwed oh f**k me then shithead motherf**kingbitch. This sux bastard dickhead. I got to keep my faith in Gordon and I will if I can without giving a care about nascar somehow, guess I need to pray for mike helton then that is all I know that will work God forgive me and you are in control of everything now and always will be thank you God and amen 1082. The Long Shot posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:46 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) ^ See, now THIS is a Youtube-esque comment, 83andJoe. 1083. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (7) (1) According to the Newman interview, Clint called Ryan to apologize. Hey Nascar, maybe you should asked Nascar what the hell he has to apologize for since in your mind he did nothing wrong. Maybe you can reopen the case an give the 15 the bigger penalty it rightly deserves. 1084. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) ^ And that should say "maybe you should "ask Clint" what" 1085. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "thank you God and amen" So all of that was supposed to be some sort of a prayer? 1086. Mr X posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:13 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) I would really like to hear from Martin Truex Jr in all this, he is the one paying the ultimate penalty from a drivers perspective. Brian Vickers and Clint Bowyer's penalties are pretty much meaningless by comparison. I never really paid any close attention to Martin's relationship with his teammates, but I am curious to see how it deteriorates after this, especially his view of Clint, as well as the other drivers views of Clint, personally I don't really see him making it through the chase without someone showing their distaste for him at some point. If NASCAR doesn't lay down further penalties to Bowyer after the chase starts that's pretty pathetic. 1087. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) This is unrelated, but I'm pretty sure even Marty Reid has never taken the trashing that Chris Berman took on Twitter tonight from NFL fans. 1088. b4il3y posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey..nice job by nascar for once setting a precedent for once. Now we know, at least we don't have team orders.. when they're given over the radio.. like we weren't hearing them and the tv station and all those with headsets weren't hearing them.. yeah.. 1089. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:39 am Rate this comment: (3) (6) Saying a prayer like Daniel did doesn't make you a Christian anymore than eating at McDonald's makes you a hamburger. 1090. joey2448 posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:15 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I think comment 1083 is the funniest I've ever seen on this site. And not because it's witty or sarcastic... 1091. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:57 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) As far as Michael Waltrip is concerned, I'd like to issue an apology to every human being on this Earth who has ever said anything negative about this man. I forgive you. 1083, much respect to you. That was epic. And I think Ben Lowe is right. It is cjs who is sabatoging Jeff. I mean C'Mon, he claims to be living in Baltimore. Baltimore! That is worse code than "is your arm tired?". Who moves from beautiful SoCal to Baltimore unless ot is to be named Executive President of Receiving One Million Dollars Everytime Ray Lewis Draws Attention To Himself? He really lives in Concord, NC as a mechanic on the 24 car and intentionally messes it up. It all makes sense now. Cjs, how can you live with yourself? 1092. Ched Little posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:10 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Either I'm coked to the gills, or this is the most bizarre comments section in the history of Internet. This... is... epic!!!!!!!!!! Keep it up guys; you make racing more tolerable than it is! 1093. Watto posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The penalties are arguably fair and I understand them, but I'm left with a bitter taste in my mouth after all of that simply because this situation wasn't the best example of dirtiest team orders in the history of NASCAR, not even in the history of the Chase era, and yet it received the biggest media firestorm and highest amount of fan complaints. The penalties make sense but all it does is make NASCAR look even more like a double standard circus because this has been the focal point when we've seen a thousand equal situations and a number of situations that were worse. I guess we didn't have enough fans complaining about those, situations. NASCAR's logic about the 55 car intentionally slowing to let the 20 by is amazing because we see that every single year multiple times per year. If that is enough to receive a big enough penalty, then they've missed so many opportunities to. I guess it all depends on who you are. I wonder - had Kyle Busch made the Chase last year thanks to Denny pulling to pit road for no reason, would they have penalized both cars 50 points, fined the team 300 grand, taken Kyle out of the Chase, and put Gordon back in? I'll let you figure that one out by yourself. Good on NASCAR to do something right for once, but it's all ridiculous in my mind, because next time team orders happen, if there's no firestorm, nothing will happen. 1094. Peter posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:50 am Rate this comment: (2) (3) 39 in 55 out. Thanks NASCAR for once again screwing over an innocent driver 1095. Peter posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:50 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) *56 oops 1096. Anonymous posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:13 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I wouldn't be surprised if Truex quit NASCAR, this is total bullshit. If they wanted to send MWR a message why didn't they take Bowyer out 1097. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:31 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) This is the first time I can remember that somebody following team orders to let a guy pass him got penalized. I don't see why NASCAR felt the need to penalize Vickers. Teams have done stuff to effect the outcome of races, championships, for a long time. But this is the first penalty I can ever remember. 1098. We need more Onion posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) The publicity machine was successful. I might look like a theorist, but I think Mikey is getting money for creating this profitable-looking 'cheating' scandal and the ensuing huge penalty, which two has just brought NASCAR into the spotlight... also I will not be surprised if Clint runs amazingly in the chase. On a sidenote, penalizing Vickers for 50 points? That's nice, now he has -50 :) 1099. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:20 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) They're trying to say Bowyer has poison oak, hence the code phrase "itch it." That's where the powers that be at MWR went wrong. They should have tried to sell that line before the race because then the phrase "itch it" wouldn't have been so absurd then. 1100. DB1995 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:15 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) NASCAR should penalize themselves they have been changing the outcome of races for a long time 1101. DRF posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:04 am Rate this comment: (3) (4) Truex wasn't innocent, he didn't deserve to be in the Chase in the first place. Thank you NASCAR for making the right decision! Should've suspended Bowyer from the Chase too though. 1102. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I think everyone expecting Jeff Gordon to take revenge during The Chase will be disappointed. 1103. NascarFan1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Bowyer got away scot-free. 1104. JRacingFast posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone else catch Clint Bowyers interview on Sportscenter, Ricky Craven was giving him the fifth on everything! 1105. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Call me crazy but Clint Bowyer may be the best thing NASCAR has going for it now, he's instantly become the biggest heel since Dale Earnhardt. If he seriously contends for the championship this season, there might be casual fans who actually tune in just to see if someone can beat the cheater. 1106. Peter posted: 09.10.2013 - 12:27 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Just saw Bowyer on ESPN and he is lying sack of shit! I would say I lost all respect for him, but I already had none left after what he did Saturday. He had a chance to own up to it, but instead denied everything. What a coward. 1107. 12345Dude posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Your right Peter. Clint said the spin wasn't on purpose. The video is on Jayski.com 1108. 12345Dude posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) But at the same time did you see how said Clint looked? This has to be killing him. I think this could really effect his career. A lot more than a 50 point penalty would. You need a excellent mental state to compete in NASCAR or any other major sport series. There's a top driver currently who's been struggling in that area (from my perspective) for a while now, and you can see his results just aren't the same. I'm hoping this doesn't hurt Clint Bowyer mentally. But it could. Because people are never going to let him forget it. It will be mentioned all of this chase, and he will get "heat" for it before the end of every chase (26 race season) in my opinion. 1109. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I hear you guys, I've lost respect for Clint over this as well. He could very easily have told MWR "no" and even if they fired him because he didn't go along with their plan, other top teams would pick him up in no time. Hopefully he realizes just how lucky he is that NASCAR didn't take him out of the Chase like they should have. 1110. 12345Dude posted: 09.10.2013 - 1:55 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) I think that segment also proved that Ricky Craven deserves to be commentating with NBC next year. Could you imagine Darrell Waltrip doing that interview? 1111. The Long Shot posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:00 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) "I think that segment also proved that Ricky Craven deserves to be commentating with NBC next year. Could you imagine Darrell Waltrip doing that interview?" Boogity Boogity Boogity!! Let's go interrogate some criminals, boys! 1112. MStall41 posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now that justice has mostly been served, and the fan base has (for the most part) been satiated a bit, I'm going to make a bold statement..... This whole incident was GOOD for NASCAR. Think about it. NASCAR has been in the news all week for this. Bowyer himself is doing a massive interview circuit, further getting the story out there and driving casual interest up as to whether or not he actually "did it". Now that NASCAR issued there big penalty and resotred some credibility back to the sport, this has become something of a sick twisted publicity boon for NASCAR. Bowyer could use the incident to become the "new villain" that NASCAR would love to have. It all makes sense. I predict ratings will be up HUGE next week at Chicago. 1113. 12345Dude posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) MStall41 how is this good for the sport? The sport has lost what ever credibility it had left. And now people who aren't fans of NASCAR aren't going to watch or buy tickets because "drivers are fixing the races". 1114. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 12345Dude, I agree with you. Although I am disappointed NASCAR took pretty much no direct action against Clint Menard, I do believe the residual effect of this will hurt him. Hell, not penalizing him (effectively) may wind up hurting him worse than if they did. 1115. MStall41 posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:30 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) The sport didn't lose any credibility. MWR lost credibility. NASCAR didn't tell MWR to do the shit that they did. NASCAR regained their credibility when they issued the penalties. NASCAR is in the clear at this point. Should they have done more to Bowyer? Yeah, they should have, but they did enough to at least restore credibility in my eyes. MWR is the one with no credibility at this point. Getting back to the point,I live on a college campus in the Northeast. And guess what? People are talking about this story. Like, a lot. They want to know who this Bowyer guy is and I've heard numerous people say they'd be interested to tune in to Chicago on Sunday to see what "the Chase" is about as well as to see if somebody wrecks NASCAR's newest villain, Bowyer. If nothing else, this whole ordeal helps drive into the minds of casual fans just how big this "Chase" thing actually is in the world of NASCAR. People said Dale Earnhardt's death would be bad for the sport in 2001. And guess what? Dale's death was succeeded by three of the biggest years of growth in NASCAR history. Casual folk wanted to know what the hell was so special about this Dale guy and this NASCAR stuff. This is just how publicity works. Ratings will be up big for Chicago on Sunday. Just watch. 1116. Schroeder51 posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The fact that Bowyer's reputation is almost certainly permanently tarnished could very well be the greatest punishment of them all. I can definitely see it having an effect on his on track performance. Regardless of his future on-track performance, twenty years from now most fans of the sport are probably going to know him solely as "that guy who was ordered to spin out to help his teammate". And that's something Bowyer will have to live with for the rest of his life. I ALMOST want to feel sorry for Bowyer, but as someone else said, he COULD have said no. He could have chosen to ignore his team and let things play out fairly. It MIGHT have gotten him fired in the long run, but he would at least have his dignity and reputation intact. Instead, he chose to follow his team's orders and he is going to have to live with it. 1117. David posted: 09.10.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I, like cjs, am curious as to how the driver introductions will go next week, especially for Bowyer and Gordon. 1118. 83andJoe posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >On a sidenote, penalizing Vickers for 50 points? That's nice, now he has -50 :) Actually, according to the official standings, it's still 0. I suppose the logic is that "if he started earning points, he wouldn't get any until the amount of points earned passed 50". 1119. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:25 pm Rate this comment: (16) (1) Just saw Clint's sportscenter interview where he called Ricky Craven out. Stay classy Clint Menard, stay classy. The final 10 races oughta be fun just to see how much shit ESPN gives him. Especially since they are a lame duck network who is suddenly telling stuff like it is (did I catch DJ at Bristol saying The Baroness is "treading water"?). Telling Ricky Craven he doesn't understand the pressure of the sport. What a bush league move. Ricky started in NASCAR for a lower mid level team, HAD to perform to move up, and got a ride with the sport's most visible team (HMS) and most visible sponsor (Budweiser). Sounds like a sweet gig right? Wrong, it was the 25 car (that era's equivalent of the 24 car, low car on the totem pole, gets shit on constantly). The pressure got to him, he pressed too hard as his teammate was pretty much living in victory lane. He got hurt, came back too soon, and it damn sure looked like his career was done. But he kept pressing, got the less than prestigious 32 Tide Ride (putting it mildly) and scored two of the most dramatic underdog wins this millenium including winning the greatest finish ever. Lets see Clint Menard overcome those obstacles. 1120. StenhouseFan17 posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Meanwhile, I'm just pleased that RSJ broke the top 10 curse. So many things have gone wrong this year, so hopefully he can build momentum the last 10 weeks. 1121. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I, like cjs, am curious as to how the driver introductions will go next week, especially for Bowyer and Gordon. I'd love to sit here and say that at Martinsville, for the first time since 1994, I won't be booing Jeff at driver intros at a race I am at. But I don't wanna lie. 1122. David posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (8) (1) "Telling Ricky Craven he doesn't understand the pressure of the sport." That's it. I've officially disowned him. He's a disgrace to Jim Roper, Rick Mears, and any other racer who came from Kansas. I'm sure Destroyahirismix666 feels the same way. 1123. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really hope they do boo the hell out of Bowyer at every race for the foreseeable future. Not only because he clearly deserves it (Ricky Craven has more dignity in his pinky than Bowyer and MWR do in their entire sponsor whore race team). But Nascar also really needs a number one villain right now. Kyle is "maturing" (I hate to say it, but he really is in my eyes - it's been a long time since he's shown ass), Kurt is mellowing out (although that might change when he joins the SHR All Star Rage Team next year), Harvick is mellowing out (but like Kurt, that might change next year), and Stewart is actually on a sympathy run right now because of his broken leg. So I actually agree with MStall that this was SOMEWHAT good for the sport. It will not only bring some new eyes, but it will also give us a driver and race team that we have every reason to trash all the time. 1124. We need more Onion posted: 09.10.2013 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow Clint, maybe a popular, really intelligent, back-in-his-time amazing driver should not be told that he doesn't understand the pressure... I did not care about MWR doing this, looked at it either as an action of NASCAR itself or just a brilliant piece of strategy. But now Clint can go to hell. 1125. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I also want to say that I REALLY hope that all of this eventually leads to Martin Truex getting the hell out of MWR. I really like Martin. He's the only driver over there that I genuinely like and want to see succeed (after this deal I have no respect for Bowyer and I really don't have any connection to Vickers, though I did enjoy his Loudon win this year). Somebody was talking before about how they were wondering if this would have an impact on Martin's relationship with the team and his teammates. I think (and I hope) it will. He doesn't really seem like the type that would appreciate or be in on a dirty situation like this. So maybe after this, he will finally realize that he needs to go to another team. Also, other than the win at Sonoma and making the Chase last year, it's been a largely disappointing run for him there (especially when compared to Bowyer, who has 3 wins and a runner up point finish in only a year and a half there). So I hope his (for the most part) lack of success and the realization that his owner is a scumbag idiot will make him walk. Surely somebody would pick him up. JGR is always talking about a fourth team. RCR is seemingly always adding a fourth car every other year. And I don't expect Biffle to be back with Roush after next year either. So there has to be another spot for him in the Cup Series with some other team that will be better for him. 1126. The Long Shot posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MStall41 has it right. This is the exact thing that NASCAR needed to boost publicity as well as ratings. NASCAR may have penalized Bowyer 50 0 points, but they're secretly thanking him for this. At last, we have a true "bad-boy" in this sport. Admittedly, he's no Dale Earnhardt, but he's a hell of a lot better than "Nap-Time" Jimmie Johnson. Like Earnhardt, Bowyer is down-to-earth, and they have similar senses of humor, whereas Johnson is the definition of upper-class and being stuck up, and his sense of humor leaves a lot to be desired. Gentlemen, I present to you the new face of NASCAR: Clint Bowyer. 1127. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Michael Waltrip interview on Race Hub today. Great. 1128. cjs3872 posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) And add the legendary Rodger Ward to those racers from Kansas, David. That's where he came from originally. And if Clint Bowyer trashed Ricky Craven, that's going to get him on the bad side of anyone who raced against Craven, because Craven was not only a very popular driver in the garage area when he raced, but he also had something Bowyer seems to lack. A little thing called courage. And I also imagine that's not going to be very popular with those at ESPN. Craven, much like fellow ESPN analysts Rusty Wallace and Dale Jarrett, calls it as he sees it, and everyone on the ESPN announce team said he spun on purpose, or at least said it was suspicious. EVERYONE. And this gives Jeff Gordon another reason to despise Bowyer, not that he doesn't have enough already. But now Bowyer's given the entire garage area a reason to strongly dislike him, because Craven was as courageous as they got in the era he raced in, right up there with the likes of Ricky Rudd and even Dale, Sr. himself. I've watched sports long enough to know the one thing you don't do is to trash someone in the media, because he will always boomerang it back at you. After all, that's the job of someone in the media, particularly a commentator, to make critical comments. Last year after the incident at Phoenix, Craven said that Gordon gave up some of the good will points he had racked up through the years. I bet Craven doesn't feel that way now. 1129. DB1995 posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the midst of all this , Iowa may be having financial problems, and Rockingham may be shutting down. 1130. MStall41 posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Have any of you seen Bowyer's interviews today? He's being cocky, he's dodging questions, and genuinely settling into the role of being a villain. NASCAR must love this. 1131. 12345Dude posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 1114 DSFF And what about this DSFF what's going to happen to Michael Waltrip Racing? Clint Bowyer acting like, Michael Waltrip acting like this, poor Ty Norris getting blamed for everything. There is 1 HUGE misconception about NASCAR. It is completely a team sport. I have read 2 driver interviews in the last 2 weeks (other than Clint Bowyer) and these are quotes from them. David Reutimann interview (from NASCAR illustrated Magazine) "It's understated how big of a team sport this is. The driver gets the blame or recognition. It all comes down to having a really good team in order to be competitive. You can work your guts out and try to do everything right but if you don't have all the other pieces as well, it's kind of irrelevant. You have to do your part but everybody has to do their part to even be remotely competitive. Forget winning, just to be competitive." Kurt Busch interview from MikeMulhern.net "Now 35, I find myself in a great position with stability in the sport...knowing what I've done wrong, knowing what I've done right. "The opportunity is about people. That's what makes this so important -- that I've neglected in the past -- understanding the people. Knowing that that makes the difference if you're going to victory lane or not." "That's what I thought that I could do when I moved from Roush Racing to Penske back in 2006. I thought I could wear all the weight on my back. "That was not the case. That's when you learn it's about the people, team communication, how it filters through all the channels." So this is the point I'm getting at. How is this going to effect Michael Waltrip Racing? (not just Clint Bowyer) How does the whole #15 team react after Clint Boyer's actions and words? Ty Norris was the scapegoat. How hard is he going to work for a scumball like Michael Waltrip? Why didn't Rob Kaufman or anyone else defend him or say they were part of it? How does everyone around the team react to Michael Waltrip's actions? (blaming Ty, crying after making the Chase) Does everyone on the team wonder if there going to be thrown under the bus the next time MWR does something horrible? (which they will given their past) Is everyone on the team really going to give 24/7 after all this? Are the teams and organization as a whole going to have the same chemistry? So many questions. 1132. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "It's hurtful that people you respect in the industry are so mean." - Michael Waltrip LOL, They're not being mean, they're being RIGHT. 1133. AveryNH posted: 09.10.2013 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Once again Waltrip threw Norris under the bus, saying he acted alone. 1134. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) As expected, Michael Waltrip is playing the innocent card. Also, Clint Bowyer lost more respect by his interview with Clint Bowyer today than he had originally lost from me at Richmond. As if Saturday night couldn't get any worse, the MWR PR moves have made things considerably worse over the past 24 hours. 1135. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) For anyone that's paid attention to Clint over the years, you know who much of a free personality that he has. Well, he has showed little to none of those characteristics over the past three days. His body language since Saturday night has told me all I need to know of his innocence. 1136. Scott B posted: 09.10.2013 - 5:21 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I don't think NASCAR has regained a lot of credibility if they're still saying the evidence on the Bowyer spin was "inconclusive." Meanwhile at MWR, Clint is apologizing, but can't say what he's apologizing for. Yet, he starts the Chase with the same points total he'd have as if the whole thing never happened. Vickers isn't running for Cup points, so his penalty is purely symbolic. The crew chiefs have been given the usual meaningless probations, and even then they don't even carry over into the 2014 season. Mikey is saying nothing about the spin and saying the call to pit Vickers was a "split second decision," when it's obvious there was an elaborate plan in place to give the #39 whatever help the situation called for. No, we're a long way away from having any kind of closure on this one, or credibility. The only thing NASCAR got right was working out a way to put Newman back in the Chase in place of Truex, which essentially undoes the ill gotten gain and puts things back to where they would be without the late caution. But MWR is still breaking even as far as anything meaningful, there's nothing really punitive about the announced penalties if they don't affect Bowyer's chances for a championship this year or start MWR teams out at a disadvantage going into 2014. Plus, if it was the Vickers pit stop that is actually being punished and not the spin, then it was Gordon and not Newman who logically should be in the Chase. While I personally am OK with it being Newman and not Gordon in, simply being put in a position to have to decide whether Gordon is in or out is a lose/lose for NASCAR, either they make Jeff's sizable fan base angry, or they give ammo to the conspiracy theorists who think Hendrick gets special treatment. 1137. Scott B posted: 09.10.2013 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) For a good laugh (or not), go back and read how remoresful Mikey sounded in his interview with Fox News after the 2007 rocket fuel incident, that article is still online. Oh, the sincerity is just killing me. 1138. The Long Shot posted: 09.10.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is NASCAR paying Clint to act like this? This is so unlike him. 1139. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) Michael Waltrip doesn't hire racing people, he hires fall guys. It was David Hyder in 2007 (the rogue agent acting alone who went out, bought some rocket fuel, and just put it in the gas tank to the knowledge of nobody else). Now it is Ty Norris, the guy who made a split second decision that was in no way part of a larger pre meditated scheme despite the obvious efforts of both the 55 and 15 teams. That guy is the world's biggest tool. I hope the sponsors all bail, along with money man Robert Kauffman. As for Clint, I think he is showing his true colors. There has always been something about his "regular guy in the big leagues" schtick that didn't seem genuine. We see it now. 1140. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Clint tried that "regular guy in the big leagues" rhetoric with Ricky Craven today. Craven set him straight fast. 1141. 83andJoe posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:12 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) >Telling Ricky Craven he doesn't understand the pressure of the sport. Wait, he /actually said that/? Geez. 1142. cjs3872 posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is the final installment for this year of how the Chase reset would look using my system. Also included would be the 50-point penalty from Clint Bowyer's total, which is subtracted from what his position would have been, which would have included seventh place in points seeding position, which would have given him 2,012 points since he is winless in 2013. His point total for the Chase based on my system would now be 1,962. Here is the rundown of the Chasers with all tie-breakers broken by current points standings: 1. Jimmie Johnson (second in points, 4 wins) 2039 (2027+12) 2. Carl Edwards (points leader, 2 wins) 2036 (2030+6) 3. Kyle Busch (fourth in points, 4 wins) 2033 (2021+12) 4. Matt Kenseth (fifth in points, 5 wins) 2033 (2018+15) 5. Kevin Harvick (third in points, 2 wins) 2030 (2024+6) 6. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (sixth in points, 0 wins) 2015 7. Kurt Busch (eighth in points, 0 wins) 2009 8. Greg Biffle (ninth in points, 1 win) 2009 (2006+3) 9. Joey Logano (tenth in points, 1 win) 2006 (2003+3) 10. Kasey Kahne (1st Wild Card, 2 wins banked in) 2000 11. Ryan Newman (2nd Wild Card, 1 win banked in) 2000 12. Clint Bowyer (seventh in points, no wins with 50-point penalty included) 1962 (2012-50) Also note how Carl Edwards' second win, combined with him taking the 26-race lead in points and Jimmie Johnson's losing the points lead affects how the pre-Chase reset would look using my system, which seeds the top ten drivers by position before adding bonus points for wins. As a result, Johnson's pre-Chase lead goes from 12 to just three over Edwards. Edwards gained 15 points on Johnson by moving from fourth in points to displacing Johnson at he top with his win. Also, the bubble board will return with either four or five races remaining (I haven't yet decided), but it will be for the championship, instead of just making the Chase. 1143. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) I'm enjoying the comments about how Clint has "changed," to be honest. I think he's just like an upgraded version of Carl Edwards: A massive douchebag, who just did a better job of hiding it longer. Call me crazy, but I never thought he was the good guy everyone else did, I always just thought he acted like a tool. As evidence, go watch just about any interview where he was asked about Juan Montoya. And referring to post #1105, the difference there is that Dale actually came off as likeable, and actually had talent to speak of. Compared to him, Bowyer has not a shred of either. I'm glad to see that NASCAR took at least one driver out, although I disagree with who they took out. They might not be done yet though, fans might pressure them to take further action if the storm keeps brewing like it has been. And if they don't, sponsors will. At least one of their 3 primaries won't be returning next year, count on it 1144. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) By the way, that petition currently stands at 7,528 signatures, and growing at around 5 a minute 1145. Scott B posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know I will no longer do business with NAPA. I'm not a 5 Hour Energy or Aaron's customer, or I'd boycott them too. 1146. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.10.2013 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the CEO of Iowa Speedway, Doug Fritz, has resigned from that role. And to make it worse, the track might possibly be in financial trouble. So two great tracks, Rockingham and Iowa, may lose race dates next year. All I can say is that it's been a tough week for us race fans. 1147. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (12) (9) Clint Bowyer = Total ass Seriously, how could a driver whose career has thrived on almost pure luck dare insult the driver, Ricky Craven, who made one of the greatest comebacks not only in NASCAR, but in all of auto racing. He should have been dead after that second wreck at Texas, but he survived for a reason. He fought back, and he is a great symbol of fighting and taking care of yourself so that you can live your dream. He is an inspiration to everyone as few if any drivers in NASCAR ever made such a recovery to have the highlight moments of his career like he did. Not only that, but he was the winner in the greatest finish in probably all of auto racing history. Ricky, I'm backing you up. If you are going to call a spade a spade, I'll back you up to the death. 1148. Peter posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) I still don't get what Truex did to warrant getting thrown out of the chase, and if one of you say just 'cause he drives for MWR I will hunt you down and knock your teeth down your throat. I want proof 1149. Taylor posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If I were in Nascar's shoes, I'd call it like this: I would consider that Truex really didn't do anything wrong. Even though he got an advantage, you gotta give him credit for making up a few spots because he easily could've stayed where he was or even lose some positions on the last restart. Now consider Newman and Gordon. Newman is now in, but Jeff deserves to be in too and really got screwed since he would've certainly made it in if Bowyer didn't do what he did (BTW, hidden in all this, a new chapter in the Bowyer-Gordon rivalry). So if I could make the call, I would put it like this: For this year, due to these unexpected circumstances, make this a 14 man Chase. I'd re-order the points like this: 1 Kenseth 2 Johnson 3 Kyle Busch 4 Harvick 5 Edwards 6 Logano 7 Biffle 8 Kahne 9 Junior 10 Kurt Busch 11 Newman 12 Truex 1 win (no 50 point penalty) 13 Gordon 0 wins 14 Bowyer (50 point penalty in effect) I'd still keep Bowyer in the Chase because he'd already clinched a Chase spot well before they even got to Richmond. But because of what he did he deserves to suffer the most and be seeded last. So that's just how'd I do it. 1150. Dave #38 Fan-Go Gilliland! posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) "I still don't get what Truex did to warrant getting thrown out of the chase, and if one of you say just 'cause he drives for MWR I will hunt you down and knock your teeth down your throat. I want proof" Because despite the lie that Waltrip told yesterday, this was not a split second decision on the team's part. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. This was a plan that the team had in motion well in advance of the race, and everyone at MWR had to be involved in it. Truex, Bowyer, Vickers, the crew chiefs, etc, all were more than likely aware of the possibility of this situation playing out. So while Truex did not actively participate, he was an accessory to the crime but having knowledge and doing nothing to stop it from happening. He's just as guilty at everyone else at MWR. A 50 point fine and being taken out of the chase? He got off easy. He should be out for the season, along with Bowyer, Vickers, Waltrip, and all 3 crew chiefs. 1151. Watto posted: 09.10.2013 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Clint's career has thrived almost fully on luck? I'm not a Clint fan at all, as anyone knows who has read my posts, but I think his numbers alone for RCR & MWR prove that the guy is clearly a top-level Cup driver. Blatant team orders deserve penalties, but I'm simply left with a bitter taste in my mouth because of how inconsistent NASCAR is with actually tackling this sort of thing and how inconsistent the fans rage over this sort of thing. We've seen similar situations in recent years deserving of big penalties, all during twitter's popularity, facebook, etc, but somehow those situations where the exact same things were done wasn't deserving of penalties whatsoever, and yet MWR should be thrown out of the sport, fined 5 million as someone said, etc. I wish people would be consistent. 1152. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) You know what? I, personally, am ready to move on to the next race now and leave Richmond, MWR, and the penalties behind us. What's done is done. Sure there are still things that bother me, particularly the fact that no parties involved have really accepted guilt. There is another (what I would consider) big thing that still has me worried. After the race on their Facebook page, Quicken Loans uploaded the video of Bowyer's spin and said it looked suspicious. If the sponsors feel like NASCAR isn't somewhat legitimate, that could spell doom in the future which is part of the reason why NASCAR had to address this and MUST address this moving forward. 1153. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:19 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) ^ Quicken Loans is run by Dan Gilbert, the owner of the Cleveland Cavs. If you remember any of his crazy interviews after Lebron left for Miami a few years ago, he isn't the sanest person or probably the best example to use for the mindset of a Fortune 500 CEO. 1154. JG24FanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Here's to hoping Jeff Gordon ends the season with the most points despite being artificially trapped in 13th. I'm fairly heart broken that, after all the shenanigans, Gordon loses out on the Chase for MWR's vain attempt at getting Truex in. I'm not going to tune out either. In fact, I want to see Gordon have his all-time strongest Chase, even if he isn't in the Chase. Also, knowing Gordon, the sleeping giant is awake! 1155. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "Quicken Loans is run by Dan Gilbert, the owner of the Cleveland Cavs. If you remember any of his crazy interviews after Lebron left for Miami a few years ago, he isn't the sanest person or probably the best example to use for the mindset of a Fortune 500 CEO." I don't like basketball all that much so I can say definitely that I have no idea what you're talking about. 1156. JG24FanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 8:51 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Gordon's tweet's in response to the penalty's: Feel bad for Truex. He got in under controversy now out due to it. But the guy who started all of this not effected at all??? Don't agree! -- Jeff Gordon (@JeffGordonWeb) September 10, 2013 Take me out of this completely. At this point all that matters to me is if @NASCAR decides to fix this then fix it completely!. -- Jeff Gordon (@JeffGordonWeb) September 10, 2013 To Gordon's point, competitors should never be able to change the course of NASCAR history, but will the $300,000 be enough of a deterrent in the future? 1157. cjs3872 posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) NicoRosbergFan, I totally agree with you on Ricky Craven, because as I noted in post #1128, Ricky Craven had something when he drove that Clint Bowyer only wishes he had. A little thing called courage. He was a courageous driver, and even though he only won twice, it wasn't because of a lack of talent or courage. One example is when he put Rick Hendrick's renumbered #50 car on the pole at Loudon in 1998 after a long absence from concussion issues. And of course, the two races he won were arguably the race of the year in the years he won those races, 2001 and 2003, not to mention he beat powerhouse teams with a much smaller operation. In a way, he may have been the most appropriate successor to Ricky Rudd as the driver of the Tide sponsored car, even though there was a year in between where Scott Pruett drove the Tide car (2000). Let's also not forget how close he came to winning in HMS' #25 car at Rockingham in 1997, when Bobby Hamilton, another driver that fits this very profile, did win. In fact, Felix Sabates, who's known to take risks on drivers (and the team he started in 1989 is taking another very big one next year) was once so high on Craven that he believed that Craven would be a NASCAR champion some day. Of course, that didn't happen, but it shows you how high other car owners were on Craven before his injuries piled up. I think the single happiest person when it comes to Clint and the controversies he's been involved in the last couple of years is Richard Childress. I can't remember him being involved in one significant controversy in the six years he drove for Childress (2006-'11), but ever sine he joined MWR last year, he's been involved in two of the sport's biggest in a very long time. It's almost as if Childress was able to do the one thing nobody with MWR has been able to do with him, and that's keep him in line. And the controversy he ignited is so big that even J.R. Hildebrand (you know, the guy that crashed while leading on the final lap of the 2011 Indianapolis 500) had some choice comments on it, saying NASCAR had to bring out the "big stick", so the situation at Richmond got even the IndyCar community buzzing. 1158. Butch1469 posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) I scheduled a cruise for the Monday after the homestead race and was going to buy the tickets this week or next, not now. I've been to 11 of the current tracks or ten homestead would have been eleven. But I'm not going after reading the article about the penalty, if it would have been Hendricks drivers doing this nothing would have happened. There is no proof? They need to get rid of pemberton. 1159. Butch1469 posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) For you who don't know, jet fuel is Kerosene and there cannot be an advantage in that... 1160. truthhurtsdontit posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) MWR is so bad for fixing the outcome of a race huh? YEA TOTALLY, CHEATERS! not like nascar does it every weekend with invisibris cautions, wave around rule and other gimmicks. OH WAIT GUYS....*mind blown* 1161. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (5) (1) Clint Bowyer's true colors are showing now and none of them are good. The problem with Bowyer is that he puts on this phony façade of an "AWW Shucks country bumpkin" who just goes out there and minds his own business without knowledge of some of the darker and more complicated things going on. He's just this "regular fun loving guy" who plays the underdog card as well as anyone. Over the last three days, we're finally getting a look at what's behind that artificial act he puts on every week and quite frankly I'm disgusted by what I see. What Bowyer does is try to get people to underestimate him by pretending to be somebody he's not and then uses it to his advantage. He tried to do it again to today when he made this remark during his ESPN interview. "Oh, I'm not smart enough to think of all that. I'd like to take credit (for knocking Gordon out of the Chase) because then I'd consider us even, but that stuff is [way over my head]" Fortunately though, that act failed in monumental fashion today (Thank You Ricky Craven) and actually enhanced the shitstorm that's getting ready do rain down on him starting at Chicago this weekend. Clint Bowyer is not this innocent little every man's man that he's portrayed him self as, Clint Bowyer is a cold, calculating, snake, and the more I think about the more I believe that he's the perfect driver for MWR. Just like his owner, he puts on this fraudulent act for the camera when in reality he has a dark agenda that he's willing to compromise the integrity of the sport to protect. Bowyer acts like he's not playing with a full deck whenever he's put under pressure when in reality he IS the Joker in deck. He also proved today how much of a coward he is and how far he will go to protect that bozo he has for an owner. The choice today was to either stand up, admit wrongdoing, and take the heat or sink to the level of his car owner and go on a denial tour that's not fooling anyone. He made the wrong choice, and showed once an for all how much of a coward, a phony, a loser, and a fraud he really is. Clint Bowyer, what you said today "was one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in Nascar is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul". 1162. FloridaFan88 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's a very interesting article on how the Chase era has chased away sponsors. It's a must read. http://www.racefansforever.com/chasing-fans-sponsors-away 1163. DB1995 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On a good note i think we will have a pretty good race for 13th in points, With Gordon, Keselowski, Mcmurray, and Truex fighting for it, and watch it be the most exciting points battle through the chase 1164. BON GORDON posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) Just watched the Craven/Bowyer interview on ESPN. Let me just say my respect for Ricky Craven has increased ten times more. Bowyer told Craven he didn't understand the pressures of the sport twice with a grin. I hate Bowyer so much at the moment. Craven has been through much more pressure than Bowyer ever has. Craven is a class act who stood up for not only NASCAR but the fans in that interview. I applaud him for that. Would love to see him in the broadcast booth someday. 1165. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:19 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Is Michael Waltrip posting on Racing-Reference now? It's pretty hard to believe several posters would actually attempt to defend the actions of his team. 1166. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 1122. David posted: "Telling Ricky Craven he doesn't understand the pressure of the sport." That's it. I've officially disowned him. He's a disgrace to Jim Roper, Rick Mears, and any other racer who came from Kansas. I'm sure Destroyahirismix666 feels the same way. ^ I feel almost the exact same way. I don't 'Disown' him, he's just the driver that I will conviently forget is a Kansas native. And while this incident may spike views for the Chicago race slightly, it's going to hurt NASCAR terribly in the long run. I also wonder how badly this is going to affect Bowyer's mind throughout this season and most of next. Kinda of Like Darrel Waltrip in 78-79. He had spun out Bobby Allison for the win at...N Wilksboro I think, and the fear of Allison getting back at him a year later, in the middle of a what could become a championship-earning battle, scared him terribly so, even IF the incident that would might have been fresher at the point would have been the Massive crash at Rockingham caused by the Allisons and Yarbrough. It still distract a part of Waltrip's mind. It still messed with him. Yes, it's like comparing apples to oranges. But with something like that, you can't just set it aside and forget it, espically as the anniversary comes up. Also, as much as I still don't like Gordon for what had happened at Phoneix last year, Bowyer knows that not only might his sponsors drop him and he could forced out of a ride via lack of sponsorship, but Gordon is there, Gordon is pissed, and he's still pissed 3 days later!? Any good run put together by the current driver of the #15 could be sabotaged by Gordon, but all of this is running in his mind all at once, and will be 24/7. Not to mention that he has now backed himself into a corner and has to put up an 'innocence' ploy here on out. Strange for the man who called Michael Waltrip an Idiot a bit over 5 years back. Am I saying that Gordon will take personal action against Bowyer? No. If he does, it'll be at Phoneix, where most NASCAR fans will be bitching at how Johnson is on his way to winning another championship and most of the more casual fans will have forgotten last year's incident and the bit with this year's chase. But let me make it clear, I doubt Gordon will retaliate. The fact that Iowa and Rockingham are shutting down is nightmarish for me. I love those tracks, not to death, but I love them. Of all of the tracks that NASCAR Cup does not currently race at, Rockingham would be my third favorite behind Riverside and Bugatti, and Iowa would be somewhere in the top 10. Now, here is my question to you all. Bowyer vs Johnson for the Championship? Who would you rather have win this year? Obviously it would be Johnson for me, but I'm curious what you guys would have to say? 1167. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Watching that interview again, I feel bad for Ricky Craven. Bowyer sat up there with a shit-eating grin on his face and tried to discredit him as an analyst, as a driver, and as an intellect on the sport. And you could see in Ricky's face, he wasn't giving Clint the benefit of the doubt, he didn't want to. And when Clint went and said what he said, just the look on Ricky's face was the look of someone losing respect for someone else. Ricky said it himself he had a ton of respect for Clint as a driver, I'm sure some of that went straight down the drain today 1168. Jim Davis posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I'm wondering if financial problems at Iowa could ironically help its chances of landing a Cup date. If the facility is put up for sale to pay debts the buyer might be either SMI or ISC who possibly might be willing to move a Cup date to the track. 1169. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) Craven does not have understanding for the sport!? The f*? Mind BLOWN! Bowyer, you got famous for sliding upside down on your roof at the finish of the Daytona 500, in 18th position. And since then, you've said it was your most memorable moment to be the upside-down guy on fire. Craven has also been off of his wheels at a Restrictor Plate Track. So Damn hard that when he was watching the replays of it in his Hospital room, he admitted that 'He didn't want to be THAT guy!' OH, and not to mention that near 200mph head on impact at the last lap of the 2001 'Dega fall race, which left him outside of his car, trying to catch his breath. Craven has fought tooth and nail for every inch of real estate he has earned in a race, every race he has won, and every pole he has earned. Between him, Jimmy Spencer, and Derrick Cope, all who have won two races, I'd give SO much more respect to Craven. ANd I'm not alone, Nearly every driver in the garage at that time indeed liked him. Hell, I don't think anyone ever tried to pick a fight with Craven, simply because he was a good guy and a true racer that wouldn't do stupid sh1t for his team as far as I can remeber, even when he was driving for Hendrick. Bowyer, you may have considerably more wins and better Points finishes, but let it be known now, It's unlikely Craven's name will ever be taken out of NASCAR history books, he'll always be remembered as the underdog who didn't say die in 2003 at Darlington. YOU Bowyer, will be remembered only for this incident and your 2007 Daytona rollover. Despite a better track record, YOU two don't compare. He will outclass you. 1170. BON GORDON posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Gordon won't retaliate but I can promise you this much. He will race Bowyer a lot harder. I know I'm the only one that thinks this but I'm telling you despite Alan and despite slower cars Gordon is gonna have a "chase" run somewhere in between Smoke's in 2006 and yet a more consistent final ten like Busch's last year. The sleeping giant has awoken. 1171. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Now, here is my question to you all. Bowyer vs Johnson for the Championship? Who would you rather have win this year? Obviously it would be Johnson for me, but I'm curious what you guys would have to say?" That's an easy one for me. Johnson, despite how reviled he is here among just about everyone, myself included, is in my top 10 favorites. When he's not winning every 3rd weekend, I like him. Like back in 2009 before the Chase, 2010 after the halfway point, all of 2011. He might even be higher once he starts to drop off in a few years. Bowyer on the other hand is now my least favorite driver. This might be an unpopular answer, but I would rather Johnson win the next 2 titles than see Bowyer win one this year. It would be a nightmare to have Bowyer as the sport's top ambassador for a year. Whatever got into Brad's head this year would hit Bowyer tenfold. If it comes down to those two, I'm pulling out my old Lowe's hat and rooting for Jimmie all the way 1172. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) After watching the interview over, you can visibly see Ricky Craven's disappointment and anger with Ricky Craven. In typical Ricky Craven fashion, his wording was probably a little more educated than the normal NASCAR fan, but he got his point across. He stood up for the NASCAR fans and didn't back away from putting Clint on the spot. The most impressive thing with Ricky was his ability to not let emotion get in the way. He was respectfully able to make Clint Bowyer make himself look like a fool. That takes talent. 1173. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Obviously, I meant his anger with Clint Bowyer. Heck, I don't know, maybe Ricky Craven was angry with Ricky Craven for ever sticking up for Clint Bowyer in the first place. 1174. JG24FanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Since I need to vent, i'm going to do it by making a handful of Top 5 list: Top 5 favorite Cup series tracks: 1. Darlington 2. Sonoma 3. Pocono 4. Martinsville 5. Watkins Glen Top 5 favorite Cup series drivers: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. David Pearson 3. Curtis Turner 4. Kyle Petty 5. Tim Flock Top 5 Favorite Cup series races: 1. 2002 Southern 500 (My first trip to a Cup race) 2. 1999 Daytona 500 (The most dangerous and daring move combined with the best duel that Jeff Gordon ever had) 3. 1976 Daytona 500 4. 2007 Watkins Glen (You can't enjoy the good times without being able to enjoy the bad. 2nd greatest win in Tony Stewart's career behind Homestead 2011 IMO.) 5. 1995 Fall Atlanta (Can anyone remember any other race that Big E won and wasn't happy?) Top 5 favorite F1/Grand Prix drivers: 1. Fernando Alonso 2. Jim Clark 3. Jackie Stewart 4. Pastor Maldonado (I know he's wreckless and ruthless but he's fast and he dominated and won a dry race over Fernando Alonso in a Williams.) 5. Tazio Nuvolari Top 5 favorite F1 tracks: 1. Original Spa Francorchamps 2. Nurburgring Nordschleife 3. Original Hockenhiem 4. Monza 5. Suzuka 1175. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Is Michael Waltrip posting on Racing-Reference now?" "Butch1469" Well, let's see. Butch1469 is one of the names. 69-14 is 55. Michael Waltrip has owned and driven the #55 for many years. Butch Hylton is a crew chief for Timothy Peters, and formerly a crew chief for Michael Waltrip in the Busch series for 5 races and 6 DNQ's in 2005, as well as David Reutimann in the first Cup race for MWR that same year. Coincidence, I think NOT! Clearly MWR is in full damage control mode 1176. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I said it before. Ricky Craven has more courage and classiness in his pinky than Clint Bowyer and the Michael Fraudtrip Shit Eating Weasels have in their entire organization. Simple as that. I'm proud of Ricky for calling them out, and I'm proud to have rooted for the 32 Tide car when I was a little kid (Darlington 2003 is one of my top three fondest Nascar memories as a kid - Craven will always have a special place in my heart). And to answer the "Would you rather have Clint or Jimmie win this year?" question, I would easily go with Jimmie. I don't like Jimmie at all really, and I hate Chad Knaus and Hendrick Motorsports, but I would much rather see them win again than see a stat that reads "Michael Waltrip: Cup Championship Car Owner". I hate to rehash the same thing that has been said over and over, but I just can't forgive MWR for doing this. It's one thing to try and cheat your way into the Chase, but to lie to everyone and play dumb when it is RIDICULOUSLY obvious that it was a master plan? That tells me that they think we're stupid, and I'll have none of that. How anybody can still have any respect for them after they've tried to insult our intelligence is beyond me. 1177. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd root for Jimmie and hard. Which is funny because I was an Earnhardt fan as a kid and don't care for Johnson's team at all - And what's even funnier is that also rooted hard for the 48 in 2010 when that egotistical diva known as Denny Hamlin was in contention for the Cup. It just goes to show how insufferable the current crop of drivers is as a whole. It's very, very difficult to find anyone to root for in several of these Championship battles. This year, there's not one driver who I really want to win the Cup and there's three that would crush me if they won (Clint, Kurt, and Jimmie in that order). Then there's another group Kyle / Harvick / Edwards / Biffle / Jr. that I'm not too fond of either (although I would probably sign for one of those guys to win right not just to avoid seeing Clint, Kurt or Jimmie lift the Cup at Homestead. Overall though, this Chase Field sucks! 1178. Watto posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (5) "Over the last three days, we're finally getting a look at what's behind that artificial act he puts on every week and quite frankly I'm disgusted by what I see." Yeah, I'm sure it's all artificial. Everything has been an act, apparently. I guess he never was a dirt modified racer from Kansas who used to work at a dealership and has since bought that car dealership. The videos of him sitting in the grandstand at NH with fans on youtube were publicity stunts (even though no one knows about that). All along, he's been trying to deceive us so that he can get away with his master plan, that he came up with all by himself, to cause a caution to help a teammate when his employer told him to spin his car out. It's possibly the most devious plan to ever happen in Cup racing, based on fan feedback. Or maybe you, like many others, are going way over the top about it. So have you guys forgiven Paul Menard for doing the exact same thing? Denny Hamlin? Countless others? It doesn't matter whether it's race 1 or 26 - if you intentionally bring out a caution, you're affecting the points and affecting the Chase cut-off should any of those bubble drivers get affected. It's not something that needs to be only looked at during the final regular season race. Heck, when it happened 2 years ago and handed Harvick a win, nothing was even done! IT WAS THE SAME SITUATION. But, I guess Jeff Gordon didn't barely miss the Chase because of THAT yellow, so the actual actions don't matter and what does matter is who gets affected. 1179. Watto posted: 09.10.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) Also someone please feel free to answer these questions; Last year, Denny did EXACTLY what Vickers did to try to help Kyle. It didn't work, Kyle still fell short by a couple of points. Had Kyle made the Chase, do he and Denny lose 50 points, Gibbs fined 300 grand, and fans freak the heck out over it? Should teams get hit with those penalties if they exercise team orders, regardless of what does or doesn't happen as a result? 1180. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I don't like Jeff Gordon at all Watto. I've spent my whole life rooting against him, but it is absolutely ridiculous that he's not in the Chase because of the scandal that MWR pulled Saturday night. Also, I was made as hell when Menard and Hamlin did what they did too (you can see my other post on Hamlin in this thread). Now as far as Clint is concerned, I'm always reminded by what my late grandfather told me. "Adversity doesn't just build character, it reveals it". It's real easy to be the good guy that Bowyer has portrayed himself as when things are going well, but now that he's under the gun his true colors are showing and they are as ugly as just about anyone else's in the sport, and considering the current cast of characters we have roaming the garage area these days, that's quite a statement. 1181. DB1995 posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) I would still pick Bowyer over Johnson any day for anything, whether it be a cup championship, or a race to the bathroom. 1182. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) @ 1179 Everybody that pulls this stunt should be penalize for it, but policing it is tough since Nascar's burden of proof has to be explicit radio conversation admitting wrong doing - And that's probably the scariest thing of all, the next time this happens the team that does it probably won't be stupid enough to admit over the radio. Instead, they will just use a code like the 15 team did and get away with the whole thing. 1183. David posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Hell, I don't think anyone ever tried to pick a fight with Craven" One driver tried to pick a fight with him in October of 1995 at Rockingham after he felt Craven wrecked him just to finish sixth. He was restrained by his pit crew, fortunately. This driver, irony of ironies, was Darrell Waltrip. 1184. murb posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "So have you guys forgiven Paul Menard for doing the exact same thing? Denny Hamlin? Countless others?" Personally, I will always forgive the drivers for anything they do on the race track in heat of the moment situations. I forgave Paul for the 2011 one pretty quickly, no idea what you're referring to about Denny (the 2008 race where he stopped for the caution because he had a flat tire? - I've seen probably about 40 different guys do that over the years). I have no idea what it's like to be out there in the race car, so I'm not gonna hold a lifelong grudge against a driver because of a shady move they pulled. Because of that, I'll eventually forgive Clint. But I can never forgive Michael Waltrip and MWR, because I feel like they insulted my intelligence. They really thought that all of us race fans were stupid and wouldn't catch on to what they did. The way Mikey has been covering it up has disgusted me. Even today he's still making excuses like "it was all Ty Norris' idea", even though it's been pretty obvious for days now that they had planned something all along (the code phrases on Bowyer's radio lead me to believe this). So I can forgive a driver for what they do on the track, but if the people who orchestrated the whole thing are gonna lie to me and act like I'm stupid, I'm not gonna respect them so much anymore. 1185. Watto posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) I'm feeling so "whatever" about it all because even Hendrick has done team orders. Intentionally bringing out a caution isn't cool, but to say that team cars can't let other team cars tells me that people should be penalized every single year in this sport and yet NASCAR never has. I'm a Brad Keselowski fan through and through, I'm not a Bowyer fan. I'm not a Gordon fan. I think the outrage is disproportionate to fanbase reactions to other instances of team orders. It's so ridiculous. I'll be glad when this blows over, and I'll make sure to bring up future team orders that everyone sweeps under the rug. 1186. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The reason why there is more outrage here is because the MRW scandal is the first of it's kind to successfully alter the Chase field - And they didn't just alter it with one car, they altered it with two. Attempted murder is a crime, but actually pulling it off is a whole different ballgame. (Nascar should have penalized others who spun on purpose / stopped in the past but they didn't and here we are) When other teams tried this in the past, the Chase Field was not altered and therefore there were not obvious victims, or at least they were much, much smaller victims. In this case, there were fans of two teams who had their entire season flushed down the toilet and they had to direct that outrage somewhere, and so course, it's directed at those who commit the crime. In terms of successfully manipulating a Chase Field, no team in Nascar history has pulled it off as blatantly as MWR did on Saturday, and if the sport was to maintain any credibility at all, that organization had to fall for that. 1187. Sky Warrior posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Watto, I haven't forgiven Paul Menard, but have forgotten about it since the driver it hurt has since won more races than Menard will for the rest of his Cup career. It was far different from what the MWR team did. What Menard and RCR did was try to cheaply score themselves some bonus points. What MWR did was undo a full season's worth of racing and flip off the official standings as well as the fans. What Hamlin did wasn't even to help Kyle Busch, as usual it was to help himself avoid going laps down. He was caught and penalized on the spot. What MWR did has never before been done in the history of the Chase, and they deserved not only the penalties they got, but much stiffer. 1188. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "was one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in Nascar is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul". Ha! Love that movie. 1189. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Can anyone remember any other race that Big E won and wasn't happy? Actually, the truth is Dale was one of those Jimmy Connora type "I hate losing more than I love winning" guys. If you get a chance, watch his post championship interview from 1991. The guy just won his 5th title, yet you could see how disappointed he was with the mediocre way he finished that season off. And in his 1990 championship interview, you can tell he is more relieved than happy to be champion again after not winning it the previous two years. 1190. Matt G posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) More Michael Waltrip quotes from SB Nation. This man is shameless!!! On the teams plan going into the race... "We didn't go into that race with a plan of helping Martin get into the Chase," Waltrip said. "Now, we certainly, as things developed, understood where we stood and we knew that we needed that point from the 55, but we didn't have this complex plan about how we were going to manipulate the race to get Martin in." On Ty Norris's radio chatter to Brian Vickers... "I don't know if I would have done it any differently," Waltrip said. "I'm afraid that I wouldn't of, because we've seen people give up positions all the time in this sport to give a teammate a point. It happens all the time. I would have screwed that one up, too." On Clint Bowyer's spin... "You saw the video, you heard the audio," Waltrip said. "I stand behind my driver. NASCAR looked at the situation and they didn't think (Bowyer) spun on purpose. I have no reason to believe that's the case and neither should anyone else." On the credibility of his team as a whole... "We're not immoral, we're not irresponsible," Waltrip said."The decisions were made just based on circumstances." 1191. 18fan posted: 09.10.2013 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was starting to like Bowyer (now I hate him), but I could never root for him because of the fact that he drives for Michael Waltrip. I didn't like that he stayed in contention so long last year because I didn't want something to happen that allowed him to win the championship and give Michael Waltrip a championship. 1192. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) An interesting note, Sky Warrior, is that Clint Bowyer was one of Paul Menard's teammates at RCR when Menard spun on purpose in that 2001 race at Richmond. And like I said, with what Bowyer's done over the last two years, you can come to the conclusion that Richard Childress, or someone else at RCR, kept him in line, because he's been up to more mischief in less than two years at MWR than he was up to in six full years at RCR. And Watto, not only did Denny Hamlin pit unnecessarily to help Kyle Busch in the fall race at Richmond last year, but so did Martin Truex, Jr. Truex also pitted late to try to help Busch move up, but it still wasn't enough. The irony was, Gordon passed Mark Martin, who was driving the #55 car Vickers was in last Saturday night, to clinch a Chase berth with only about two or three laps left in the race. In other words, the #55 car has been instrumental in deciding who would be in the Chase the last two years. In fact, that #55 car has affected Gordon's fate the last two years. Gordon passed it to gain entry into the Chase and Vickers pitted last Saturday night, knocking Gordon out this year. 1193. The Long Shot posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) The Long Shot on Michael Waltrip... "He's an ignorant buffoon who never learned when nor how to keep his big fat mouth closed. It's certainly not helping him any right now. How does it feel to be caught in the act of cheating YET AGAIN, ye whose brains, antics, and looks can be compared to those of a balding monkey?" 1194. DB1995 posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (1) (4) My chase hopes 1. Logano 2. Biffle 3. Edwards 4. Bowyer 5. Kenseth 6. Busch 7. Newman 8. Kurt Busch 9. Kahne 10. Harvick 11. Jr. 12. Johnson We'll see how it works out for me lol 1195. JG24FanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Actually, the truth is Dale was one of those Jimmy Connora type "I hate losing more than I love winning" guys. If you get a chance, watch his post championship interview from 1991." Earnhardt was very "joyous" in that interview. Even Mark Martin seemed disappointed in victory lane. That season must have really sucked. I didn't begin paying any real attention to Nascar until 1993, even though I had been watching it with my dad since I was a baby. 1196. Watto posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) cjs - I had completely forgotten about Truex's team trying to help the Toyota teammate as well. Great point. Sorry if I annoyed anyone with some stubborn and arrogant words BTW, I don't mean anything personally. Double standards are a huge pet peeve of mine. I want team orders entirely gone and I want all situations accounted for. 1197. 18fan posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I watched the 1996 fall Richmond race the day before this race and said that I didn't think this race would be as good as the 1996 one. The long run to open the race gave me a brief flashback to that race, but it still wasn't as good. Watching Ernie and Jeff battle cleanly for the win was great, plus the legitimate chances of either Johnny Benson or Jeff Burton getting their first career victory in the middle of a four-way championship battle at that time. 1198. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt G., I disagree that The Chase field sucks. There are actually quite a few drivers I'd like to see do well: Kenseth (because he was my pre-season pick), Edwards, Harvick, Biffle, Logano, Earnhardt Jr., Kurt Busch (more for Furniture Row than for him), and Newman. I'd be pretty satisfied if any of those guys won just because it would be someone different for a change or in the case of Kenseth my prediction would be validated (for the second year in a row, I might add, since I predicted Keselowski last year). What I will say about this field is that it's weak because of who isn't in it. 4x Champion Jeff Gordon, misses it because of unfortunate shenanigans. 3x Champion Tony Stewart, struggled early, but was finally making progress until a broken leg ended his season early. 2012 and defending Champion Brad Keselowski, just had an off year. Perennial contender Denny Hamlin misses the Chase for the first time after fracturing his back, an injury h seems not to have fully recovered from. As for Johnson vs. Bowyer for the championship. Jeez. I really don't know what I'd do. That's probably the toughest question I've heard all week. 1199. BON GORDON posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:56 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) You know I will say this, the late great Dale Earhardt told drivers like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart, "whether they cheer you or boo you you're doing something right." I dont think Clint Bowyer or anyone on the MWR team can relate to that quote. The boos will be thunderous. And I also think asking Bowyer or Michael Waltrip if what they did was intentional is a smart question. Of course they will say, "no, we did not cheat or alter the finish on purpose." That would be a horrible PR move. The will forever be hated, possibly lose sponsors, and lose millions of dollars. I believe Bowyer spun on purpose and whether he did or didn't. In reality it almost cost Newman a spot, cost my guy a spot and knocked Truex out. And also the Edwards/Menard restart was pretty much swept under the rug. I don't care if they touched doors. Edwards should've been black flagged. Another inconsistent call by NASCAR. NASCAR should penalize themselves too. They manipulate the finishes a lot with their fake debris cautions. I love this sport but a lot needs fixed. 1200. BON GORDON posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:58 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I meant to say I dont think its a smart question. 1201. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 1:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Zack, I agree with your point about the Chase field. While it certainly doesn't have all the big stars like Gordon, Stewart, and even Keselowski, the fact remains that they and their teams just weren't good enough this year. Stewart took himself out with his sprint car crash and the 2 and 24 teams just weren't up to standard this year. And you still have the star power in the form of Johnson, Kenseth, Edwards, Harvick, Dale, Jr., and the Busch brothers, while you also have new faces like Joey Logano. The overall accomplishments of this year's Chase field may not compare, which is what happens when you take 135 wins and seven championships, the combined totals that both Gordon and Stewart have alone, but you have this year's best going at it. The overall field may be a little weaker than in years past, but unless the #48 team regains its form quickly, it's going to be a competitive Chase. I doubt Kenseth, Bowyer, or Kyle Busch will be serious factors to win the championship because of the Toyota engine issues, nor do I think Logano will factor in due to his, and his team's lack of experience, Greg Biffle isn't running good enough, Ryan Newman struggles on certain tracks in the Chase, Kurt Busch's team doesn't have the manpower to make good pit stops, and Kasey Kahne is too up-and-down. In other words, I've just eliminated two-thirds of the Chase field (8 of 12 drivers) before the Chase has even started for various reasons. That leaves just four drivers I think can win the championship, Johnson, Carl Edwards, Kevin Harvick, and Dale, Jr. And if Johnson's struggles continue, which I doubt they will, this could be the year that someone like Dale, Jr. or Kurt Busch win the title, possibly without even winning a race. If I had to pick a favorite other than Johnson, I like Harvick's chances, though Carl Edwards appears to have a real shot, but I still don't like Edwards when the pressure is on, because he's been known to fold under the pressure, and Roush has been known to get too conservative on his engines, which has cost his team the championship on about four occasions. If Johnson doesn't get off to a great start, this Chase is wide open, but if Johnson wins at least one of the first three Chase races, it's all over. The destiny of this year's Chase is entirely in the #48 team's hands. 1202. Matt G posted: 09.11.2013 - 1:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Let me clarify because my other comment came out too strong. I find this Chase Field compelling, but not likeable. you're right Zackary, there are some guys that are not loathsome, but there's still too many in the field for my liking. 1203. 83andJoe posted: 09.11.2013 - 2:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #19 has withdrawn from Chicago, all 43 remaining cars will start. 1204. 83andJoe posted: 09.11.2013 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) >And also the Edwards/Menard restart was pretty much swept under the rug. I don't care if they touched doors. Edwards should've been black flagged. The deal was that Menard spun his tires as well; the ruling was that you can't expect the 2nd place car to compensate for that beyond a certain point - it's a safety issue (see for instance last week at Atlanta, restart, Jeff Gordon in 2nd, spins tires - pileup from the slowness). >For you who don't know, jet fuel is Kerosene and there cannot be an advantage in that... It was called "Rocket Fuel", actually. What it was in actuality was an oxygenating fuel additive. 1205. Paul posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:58 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) @763: I haven't watched any racing in the past two weeks. As a matter of fact, I can only think of three races that I have watched since Ryan Newman's victory at the Brickyard 400 (Watkins Glen Cup, Mid-Ohio Nationwide, and Bristol Cup), so I don't really have much of an opinion on what has transpired over the past few weeks. I will say though that I thought Jeff Gordon's performance this season was Chase worthy, but NASCAR is a team sport, and the #24 team didn't get the job done. I think Gordon got as much out of that team as he could, but sometimes a great driver just isn't enough for a team to succeed. Also, very happy that NASCAR basically kicked Truex out of the Chase and put Ryan Newman in instead. I thought Newman did a great job this season given the circumstances surrounding his team (contract year, crew chief returns after 6-year hiatus, SHR struggling most of the season, etc.), and it's good to see that team's hard work paying off with a berth in the Chase. I now have two drivers that I will be rooting for in the Chase, whether I'll be watching or not (Kurt Busch and Ryan Newman). And just to touch on the issue regarding Clint Bowyer following team orders and spinning out on purpose in order to help a teammate make the Chase, allow me to propose a question for you all, in the form of an acronym. That would be WWDED: What would Dale Earnhardt do? If Richard Childress had come over the radio around 1999 or 2000 and suggested that Earnhardt should spin himself out so that Mike Skinner could have another shot at making the Chase for the championship, would Earnhardt have gone through with this plan, or would he have ignored team orders? Knowing Earnhardt, he probably would have said something to the extent of "To hell with that, Richard. I ain't taking myself out of the race just to help somebody else. If my 49-year old ass can make the Chase on my own, ol' Skinner can too." All I'm saying is that Clint had two choices in that moment on Saturday night at Richmond: He could have just done his own thing and tried getting the best finish possible while letting the cards fall as they may, or he could have blindly followed team orders while potentially changing both the outcome and credibility of this year's championship because an authority figure told him to do so (Even if it meant costing his so-called friend Ryan Newman a spot in the Chase). Guess who flunked the Milgram Experiment... 1206. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:11 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) JG24Fan, oddly enough 1991 was one of the best seasons ever. Yeah, the points battle down the stretch wasn't much as everybody took turns having trouble. But the racing that year was outstanding for the most part. Along with 1986, that was the most stacked season as far as championship caliber drivers in cars capable of winning. In fact, the points battle was a result of that. With so many drivers capable of winning week after week, it was tough to maintain momentum. 1207. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:14 am Rate this comment: (5) (0) That would be WWDED: What would Dale Earnhardt do? If Richard Childress had come over the radio around 1999 or 2000 and suggested that Earnhardt should spin himself out so that Mike Skinner could have another shot at making the Chase for the championship If Richard asked Dale to do that, he would probably drop back and wreck Skinner on principle. 1208. Red dog 32 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'm disappointed about the whole deal, it's hard to swallow. I have been to at least 1 race a year since 1999 and was planning on going to homestead this year and leave the next day on a cruise to Cancun. The cruise is paid for and I been checking out the homestead tickets, there are plenty of good seats available. I was gonna call next week to see if I could get a better deal maybe? But after reading about this fine and loss in points I've decided not to go, NASCAR is turned into a joke. I use to love this stuff, I've watched about every race year after year, spent my hard earned money to drive to Texas, New Hampshire, Indi, Daytona, those places are a ways from where I live in North Carolina. Homestead would have been the 11th active track I've been to. I've been to Richmond 7 times, Daytona 6 times and Indi 4 times. My family and my co workers know how big of a fan I have been, they call me for info on the last race. Why? Because I watch every cup race, 2/3rds of the nationwide races and at least over half of the truck races. I think that I have had enough of this sport? I'm going to start attending more NFL games, tickets are a good bit higher but at least it seems consistent in the rule department. I went to a Steeler and Ravens game a couple years ago and those are some die hard fans. Every time ole' Ed Hochuli would call out a penalty against Pittsburg those fans would raise hell. Chicago has that song they sing every time the bears score (and eveybody screams it) those are true fans to the sport they love. 1209. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) WWDED: What would Dale Earnhardt do? If Richard Childress had come over the radio around 1999 or 2000 and suggested that Earnhardt should spin himself out so that Mike Skinner could have another shot at making the Chase for the championship, would Earnhardt have gone through with this plan, or would he have ignored team orders? Knowing Earnhardt, he probably would have said something to the extent of "To hell with that, Richard. I ain't taking myself out of the race just to help somebody else. If my 49-year old ass can make the Chase on my own, ol' Skinner can too." If Richard asked Dale to do that, he would probably drop back and wreck Skinner on principle. ^ THAT is why I like the people on this site so much. I have just kind of forgotten the incident with Menard in his own spingate. But I still have no respect for him. IN fact, when I think about it, I don't have very much respect for very many drivers in this series at all, despite numerous accomplishments. Not Stewart, Not Jeff Gordon, Not Keselowski, Not Marcos Ambrose, Not Kyle Busch, not Clint Bowyer, not even Dale Earnhardt Sr. Hell, Even my amountoof respect toward Johnson, despite him being my favorite driver, has been knocked down after events in the last two-three years. Whatever the case may be, I know this. Johnson will, as usual, be the #1 man I'd root for. But I'll be pulling just as hard for Newman and against MWR these 10 upcoming races. 1210. Ched Little posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm disappointed about the whole deal, it's hard to swallow. I have been to at least 1 race a year since 1999 and was planning on going to homestead this year and leave the next day on a cruise to Cancun. The cruise is paid for and I been checking out the homestead tickets, there are plenty of good seats available. I was gonna call next week to see if I could get a better deal maybe? But after reading about this fine and loss in points I've decided not to go, NASCAR is turned into a joke. I use to love this stuff, I've watched about every race year after year, spent my hard earned money to drive to Texas, New Hampshire, Indi, Daytona, those places are a ways from where I live in North Carolina. Homestead would have been the 11th active track I've been to. I've been to Richmond 7 times, Daytona 6 times and Indi 4 times. My family and my co workers know how big of a fan I have been, they call me for info on the last race. Why? Because I watch every cup race, 2/3rds of the nationwide races and at least over half of the truck races. I think that I have had enough of this sport? I'm going to start attending more NFL games, tickets are a good bit higher but at least it seems consistent in the rule department. I went to a Steeler and Ravens game a couple years ago and those are some die hard fans. Every time ole' Ed Hochuli would call out a penalty against Pittsburg those fans would raise hell. Chicago has that song they sing every time the bears score (and eveybody screams it) those are true fans to the sport they love. " I see Butch1469 has a new identity already... 1211. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (3) wow at these people saying they'd want jimmie to win the championship if it came down to him and clint. yea because hendrick is SO PURE RIGHT? THEY NEVER CHEAT. how many freaking times have you heard of hendrick(and specifically the 48 team) cheating. they've been fined a bunch of times and chad has also sat out races. BUT IT'S OKAY CAUSE THEIR CHEATING ISNT SEEN ON LIVE TV IN FRONT OF WHINERS. *SMH... fans like these is what has slowly killed nascar 1212. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's a big difference between making unapproved modifications to the car (which EVERY team does from time to time; it's called "working the gray area," you won't succeed in NASCAR if you don't) and blatantly manipulating the outcome of a race. With that said, I personally thought Johnson's crash into the frontstretch wall while Jeff Gordon was pitting and the fact that he was seemingly just riding around to be available for something like that to be pretty suspicious. It seems most people disagree with that, so I'm not sure. But it's pretty hard to compare working the gray area of the rulebook like every team does to using cars as pawns to rig the results of a race. 1213. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) From what I'm reading, it seems like nobody on here really is all that concerned with what Brian Vickers did. 1214. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (4) (0) Apparently NAPA is reviewing their sponsorship of MWR. That's pretty big even if they decide to stay. Not very many current sponsors have a longer running relationship with someone than NAPA has with Michael Waltrip. If they do leave that could be a huge relief and game changer for a team that's stretched thin, though. 1215. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NAPA Know How..... To Cheat? 1216. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) And to add on to my last post, apparently 5-hour Energy is doing the same. MWR had a good thing going and they screwed it up. 1217. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually DSFF, 1991 and '92 were similar seasons, yet in both seasons, the championship contenders always seemed to trade races where they had problems, but perhaps the ultra-competitiveness of those two seasons produced some of that. After all, no driver won more than five races in either one of those seasons, and one of the two drivers that did that in those seasons (or the driver other than Davey Allison to win 5 in each of those years) did so due to a 4-race winning streak (Harry Gant in '91, Bill Elliott in '92). Actually, even though the modern record for consecutive races won in the modern era is four, that happened in three consecutive years in the 90s (1991-'93). No driver dominated in either 1991 or '92, but those two years were a case of parity being a good thing, because so many drivers and teams were able to win, and yet no car owner won with more than one car in either one of those two years, so what you had was there were as many different teams that won as there were drivers that won. Races like Saturday night's will have more race fans longing for the days of the single-car team, which is why Kurt Busch's season this year is somewhat of a throwback to the days of the single-car team. And if Darrell Waltrip's prediction comes to pass, and Kurt wins a second title, that would be just as amazing as when Alan Kulwicki won the title in 1992, because Kurt's driving for a single-car team from, of all places, Denver. If they can get their pit crew problems straightened out, Kurt may be the driver to beat for the title, because he'd likely have about four or five wins (plus the All-Star Race) if not for shoddy pitwork. 1218. SoonersFan posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (4) Apparently, Newman is being let into the Chase and their kicking Truex out. Sorry if this post is late or not. 1219. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:12 am Rate this comment: (2) (2) I think what made it so suspicious so quickly is that Clint usually doesn't spin out like that. I agree with the point that Johnson's spin came at a pretty convenient time; people didn't jump on it though because spins like that are quite a regular happenstance with him. 1220. The Long Shot posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Even after 12 years, WE WILL NEVER FORGET. R.I.P. 1221. Scott B posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) #1216 Zachary Shawn: I just came here from the NAPA facebook page, you can read their statement and leave a comment. I left a post urging them to stay in NASCAR but dump MWR and partner with a different team. If anyone else feels like I do, please do the same, it only takes a minute. 1222. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.11.2013 - 12:03 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) If NAPA does leave Michael Waltrip, then that will be extremely significant. They have stood by his side for 13 seasons. 1223. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 1:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Except NicoRosbergFan, that Johnson didn't spin out. He blew a right front tire, and the tire and suspension debris is what brought the caution out. NASCAR didn't want to throw that caution because a series of pit stops and just begun, which was why they waited longer than they should have to throw the caution out, because they don't like to throw debris cautions in the middle of a series of pit stops because of how dramatically that would change the course of the race, but in that case, they had no choice. If Johnson is to be faulted for anything, it's staying out as long as he did, because it almost seemed as if he wanted to draw a caution so Gordon, his teammate, could catch up, but as usual, Alan Gustafson blew that by bringing Gordon in when he knew a caution was going to come out. And speaking of Gordon, it appears that Rick Hendrick was also among those that was angry at the turn of events, especially the "penalties" that were handed down. And Hendrick doesn't get angry over much, so if Hendrick himself got angry over this situation, then NASCAR may be guilty of being to lenient on it's judgment, which I think is true in the Bowyer situation. But I also think Hendrick has to bear a significant portion of the blame for Gordon no getting into the Chase because of how he's made the #24 team the least important of all his teams the last two years. I also point to the Alan Gustafson situation, because every year he's with a driver after the first, the performance seems to get a little worse. The first year they were together, they may have been the best car in the middle portion of the season, last year they had to scrape and get very lucky just to get into the Chase, and this year the got so far behind, that it was too much to overcome even for Gordon, who didn't have the lucky win this year he had last year. If not for the luckiest win of his career (or NASCAR's refusal to throw the caution for oil at Watkins Glen), Gordon misses the Chase last year, as well. 1224. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) These are my predictions for the Chase, both individual race predictions and the championship: I-Individual races in the Chase: CHICAGO: 48-Johnson LOUDON: 99-Edwards DOVER: 48-Johnson KANSAS: 5-Kahne CHARLOTTE: 2-Keselowski TALLADEGA (5 CARS): 2-Keselowski/15-Bowyer/20-Kenseth/29-Harvick/88-Dale, Jr. MARTINSVILLE: 48-Johnson TEXAS: 20-Kenseth PHOENIX: 18-Ky. Busch HOMESTEAD: 20-Kenseth II-Chase finishing order: 1. 48-Johnson 2. 20-Kenseth 3. 99-Edwards 4. 18-Ky. Busch 5. 29-Harvick 6. 15-Bowyer 7. 5-Kahne 8. 88-Dale, Jr. 9. 78-Ku. Busch 10. 39-Newman 11. 16-Biffle 12. 22-Logano 1225. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) @1218 Also, Ray Evernham will be leaving as Jeff's crew chief at or before the end of the season so he can be the owner of a team with Dodge factory backing as they re-enter the sport. 1226. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seems like a lot of the comments on NAPA's Facebook page actually want NAPA to stay with MWR, but I'm sure NAPA executives aren't crazy about being business partners with sketchy people. We'll see how it all ends up. 1227. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I don't know about NAPA, but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see 5 Hour Energy leave. They've already been cutting way back on their schedule this year. So maybe this will be enough for them to leave completely. 1228. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Fox Sports is breaking that they have proof of even more cheating and race rigging that went on during Saturday night's race at Richmond. They will reveal it on RaceHub today. Apparently, this time it involves Joey Logano in some way. I wouldn't get your hopes up that this is as controversial as the MWR story, though. 1229. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For fellow F1 fans on this site, it's been announced that Kimi Raikkonen will leave Lotus to reunite with...Ferrari in 2014! Cjs3872 reminded me about chase predictions, so here's mine: Chicago: Matt Kenseth New Hampshire: Kurt Busch Dover: Jimmie Johnson Kansas: Greg Biffle Charlotte: Brad Keselowski Talladega: Matt Kenseth, but my underdog pick is David Gilliland Martinsville: Jeff Gordon Texas: Jimmie Johnson Phoenix: Dale Earnhardt Jr. Homestead: Carl Edwards And here's what my final points look like: 1.) Matt Kenseth 2.) Jimmie Johnson 3.) Carl Edwards 4.) Kevin Harvick 5.) Greg Biffle 6.) Dale Earnhardt Jr. 7.) Ryan Newman 8.) Kasey Kahne 9.) Joey Logano 10.) Kyle Busch 11.) Kurt Busch 12.) Clint Bowyer 1230. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Specifically, it involves some sort of communication between Logano and Gilliland. Widespread case of poison oak, I suppose. 1231. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) As a Joey Logano fan, I will be royally pissed if he too gets booted from the Chase 1232. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm gonna copy CJS and do my race-by-race and final standings predictions. 1. CHICAGO: Kyle Busch (Finally gets a win while he's in the Chase.) 2. LOUDON: Ryan Newman (Always good there, had the win sealed at the similar Richmond track.) 3. DOVER: Kasey Kahne (I don't know why, I'm just picking him there.) 4. KANSAS: Matt Kenseth (He's won the last two there, so I think he'll go three in a row.) 5. CHARLOTTE: Jimmie Johnson (He's gotta win at least one.) 6. TALLADEGA: Jeff Burton (I know, I'm a Burton fan and this is biased. Whatever. This will probably be his final career win if it happens.) 7. MARTINSVILLE: Kurt Busch (I see him getting at least one win.) 8. TEXAS: Matt Kenseth (You'll see in a minute.) 9. PHOENIX: Brad Keselowski (Finally gets his first win as champion because of a Paul Wolfe strategy call.) 10. HOMESTEAD: Jeff Gordon (Breaks the Homestead curse by winning back to back there.) Okay, now here's my championship standings. 1. MATT KENSETH (I just think that he'll run good enough to outweigh the potential TRD engine problems. They've been the best all year on the 1.5 milers, so I think he'll rack up enough points on those to take the title.) 2. KASEY KAHNE (He's finished behind Kenseth a ton this year, so why not in points too? I'll think he'll have a good Chase, and this will probably be the best overall season of his career so far.) 3. JIMMIE JOHNSON (I think he'll contend for a little bit, but he'll have a couple bad races and fall behind. I'm expecting Kenseth to sort of run away with it, with Kahne passing Johnson for 2nd late in the Chase, kind of like Bowyer did last year.) 4. RYAN NEWMAN (He'll have a great Chase, just not good enough to officially contend for the title. Great finish for this lameduck though, as opposed to the other one in the Chase.) 5. KYLE BUSCH (I think he'll be a lot like Kenseth in that he'll have enough good runs to outweigh the potential engine problems. Just, Kenseth will do it better.) 6. JOEY LOGANO (Gets the Penske support and finishes off a great season.) 7. DALE EARNHARDT JR (Consistency machine. Don't think he'll get a win, but his ability to squeak in good finishes week to week will give him a top 7 points finish.) 8. CARL EDWARDS (This might surprise some people, but I just don't think he'll challenge for wins enough to really make noise for the championship. He'll probably have a couple bad races too.) 9. KURT BUSCH (I think he'll get at least one win in the Chase, but overall I think he'll be denied a title run because of more bad luck.) 10. KEVIN HARVICK (Finishes out his RCR career pretty mediocre. Will have a couple of top fives, but other than that, will be pretty much a sidenote.) 11. GREG BIFFLE (Just not really competitive at all this year, other than the win at Michigan). 12. CLINT BOWYER (He'll be mentally affected by all of this Spingate stuff.) 1233. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fox Sports is breaking that they have proof of even more cheating and race rigging that went on during Saturday night's race at Richmond. They will reveal it on RaceHub today. Apparently, this time it involves Joey Logano in some way. I wouldn't get your hopes up that this is as controversial as the MWR story, though." That would make sense, especially since they are both Ford teams. If you look at the results, Gilliland was one of the cars Logano passed to get 22nd and ultimately make the chase. 1234. Matt G posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Guys, I just saw Michael Waltrip about ten minutes ago. Then I flushed. 1235. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Maybe Hendrick's money can buy Gordon a spot in the Chase after all. This is just beyond ridiculous now if they're kicking out Logano too. Can we find a way to get Danica in the Chase? There's a little-known rule that the 2nd-place driver in rookie standings automatically qualifies, isn't there? Just let NASCAR pick who it wants in the Chase. It basically is right now anyway. I agree with the first penalties they made, but seriously, they've gone way overboard in trying to get Gordon in there. Pathetic. 1236. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. This is unbelievable if Logano gets kicked out too. 1237. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) NASCAR's dream Chase field: 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Kyle Busch 3. Matt Kenseth 4. Jeff Gordon 5. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 6. Kasey Kahne 7. Denny Hamlin (Don't matter if he missed races!) 8. Tony Stewart (Don't matter if he's hurt! THINK OF THE VIEWERS) 9. Danica Patrick 10. Austin Dillon (In the #3!) 11. Clint Bowyer 12. Kyle Larson (Don't matter if he's made 0 starts!) 1238. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I thought I noticed that Gilliland had dropped a few spots near the finish, but kind of forgot about it with all the other controversy around. If there is legitimate proof on this, then they probably need to do something from a consistency standpoint, but at the same time, it doesn't sound worse than the Toyota camp-wide scheme from last year, so I am not really sure. I feel like Logano earned to be in the Chase, so I would hate if he were kicked out, but if his team was involved in cheating, then he deserves the same treatment as Truex. 1239. BON GORDON posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I'm sorry but this is one of the major flaws of the chase. I hope Gordon does get in. Will he win the title if he does. Probably not. What happened exactly 1240. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) OK here's what I don't get. Yes that one point got Logano into the Top 10, but he was 10 points ahead of Newman by the end of the night and would have made The Chase anyway. Was this more about wanting the 3 bonus points than it was actually making the Chase itself? 1241. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) They'll buy, I mean make up, I mean, find a way to put Gordon in. 1242. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) He would have gotten the tiebreaker with Gordon anyway even if they tied. I don't think there's anything to this story. 1243. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Counter point, though...Penske didn't anticipate he'd be getting help from Waltrip. Does NASCAR penalize based on intent, or outcome (assuming the story checks out, of course). 1244. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What a crazy motorsports week. Now I just read that Raikkonen is going back to Ferrari in F1? 1245. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR's REAL dream Chase: 1. Dale Earnhardt Jr. (Sport's most popular driver, fan interest would double if he won the championship.) 2. Tony Stewart (Sport's most controversial driver) 3. Jeff Gordon (Sport's living legend with a huge fanbase) 4. Kyle Busch (Sport's most well-known heel) 5. Brad Keselowski (Sport's "next legend," according to some...) 6. Austin Dillon (Continuing the legacy of the black #3 car...) 7. Bill Elliott (A token for the long time fans; formerly most popular driver) 8. Nelson Piquet Jr. (Expanding influence in Latin America) 9. Juan Pablo Montoya (Expanding influence in Latin America) 10. Narain Karthikeyan (Hey, India has over a billion people! That's a billion potential viewers!) 11. Travis Pastrana (Action sports star and big personality) 12. Jimmie Johnson (You can't seriously think they WANT him to win... they are, after all, a business, and they know he isn't marketable... but they want him around to get beat for sure... sort of like humans vs. robot) 13. Danica Patrick (Extra Chase spot added for top female driver, and NASCAR surely wouldn't want her to beat anyone, or the legitimacy of the sport would be completely out the window.) 1246. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Not bad but replace Karthikeyan with Kahne. Don't wanna alienate America's 14-year-old female population, do we? 1247. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Also, replace John Paul Montana with Carl Edwards. NASCAR loves the backflip. NASCAR's dream is for Junior, Danica and Dillon (in the black #3) to be three-wide coming to the flag at the finish of the Daytona 500. Brian France would have a Francegasm if that came to pass. 1248. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 14 year old girls don't care if Kahne finishes in the 30s, they'll still think he won the race. Good point on Edwards. Maybe NASCAR can just hire Montoya as jet dryer driver emeritus instead. 1249. We need more Onion posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Seriously, they should just stop making controversies... even with Joey being one of my least favorite driver, I'd be pissed if he gets kicked out as well. He earned it, just as Truex. Then I guess, Gordon whose team have always been known as a totally clean one (obv sarcasm), would get in? That'd be pathetic. But seeing FRM's involvement, there is only one thing NASCAR has shown consistency in, and that is giving ridiculous penalties to small teams. Just hoping that they come out intact and the bigger part of this shitstorm has already passed. 1250. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Can Kyle Larson make the Chase too, NoLongerAnonymous? He can replace Piquet - even though I like Piquet. 1251. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A if NASCAR penalizes Logano the same way they hit Truex, he's out because the penalty would drop him behind Newman and Gordon would be in. But the question is, if FOX has this, then why didn't NASCAR know about it during their press conference Monday night? Something seems off about this one. 1252. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's the thing...since they made the 55 communications the focus point of the last investigation and round of penalties, doesn't NASCAR HAVE to penalize to the 22 for doing the same thing*? Wouldn't that be the consistency fans have been screaming for for years? You can't have it both ways. *Assuming the story checks out. 1253. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way my last post was supposed to be equally critical of NASCAR (for opening Pandora's Box) and for the fans (who want consistency except when they don't). 1254. Kevin posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) So the communications started prior to the Bowyer spin. At that point with the 39 winning Logano was two points back of Gordon for 10th and would NOT have gotten the second wild card since Newman was winning. He needed two spots, one being the #38 and then I'd be willing to bet if the race stayed green that the other one was the Blue Deuce. 1255. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know how I feel about this one yet... 1256. Rexrobe posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs, it's probably because no one was looking. Just on the surface, a Penske car passing a Front Row car isn't that out of the ordinary. 1257. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't think there will be any further penalties. 1258. Matt G posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Just heard the audio. Nascar is screwed. The evidence there is more of the "conclusive" kind they seem to need to incriminate people than what got MWR the 50 point penalties across the board. If the other penalties were only for what they heard on the 55 radio, Nascar almost has to penalize both the 38 and the 22 for what was explicitly said there. Unbelievable!!! (Of course, this is Nascar and they are not always consistent so we'll have to see) 1259. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For the sake of consistency, I guess they would have to penalize the 22 and the 38. 1260. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) That's not what Jim Utter said on Twitter. NASCAR's statement was they saw nothing that required further action. 1261. Bro Jackson posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Jim Ross retired today. Though I think it'll be a short-term retirement, before he comes back to the booth as a NASCAR announcer. "OH MY GOD!! DANICA JUST WRECKED KYLE BUSCH!! WHY DANICA WHY?!?" 1262. The Long Shot posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) NASCAR has released a statement: "NASCAR is aware of reports about the #22 and #38 radio communications at Richmond International Raceway and is looking into it, but has yet to see anything in full context that requires any action." I seriously doubt Logano will be punished for this. In the Clint Bowyer case, Bowyer deliberately spun out to help his teammate, changing the entire complexion of the race while also severely endangering other drivers. This changed almost nothing in the race (other than Logano gaining a position on Gilliland, of course), and as for the whole points battle, Logano would have made it in anyways, so it didn't really matter. Besides, the chances of this having never happened before are slim at best. I'm sure that the Gordon fans will give me crap for saying this, but Logano deserves to be in the Chase over Gordon, and I don't think it's close, even with whatever help Joey got from MWR and Gilliland. NASCAR was throwing Gordon-favoring cautions throughout the race, and the 3 other Hendrick cars were almost invisible throughout the race (sand-bagging, I presume), at least whenever Jimmie wasn't crashing into walls. (In fact, this theory popped into my head: Joey was off the pace throughout the first part of the race, going 2 laps down and dropping down to about 25th. But once he got there, he never dropped any lower in position and never lost another lap. I don't know about you, but I don't think MWR was the only team rigging the Chase on Saturday night.) 1263. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just when we thought this whole mess was over when the MWR cars were penalized. But this is reminiscent of what the Toyota teams did last year to help Kyle Busch, because both Denny Hamlin and Martin Truex, Jr. made late, unnecessary pit stops to try to move Kyle Busch up a couple of spots. But this ay be even worse, because you wonder if the #38 team isn't "compensated" for what transpired, that they may, in fact, expose the extortion committed by the Penske team, because that' what it was. This may be even worse than what MWR did, because Penske appeared to try to collude with another team. When that person from the #38 team said "it better pay big", that tell me that there may have been extortion involved in that situation. Last Saturday night's race may well be NASCAR's version of the 1919 World Series. Remember that at the moment this portion of the fiasco began, Joey Logano would have been outside the Chase because Gordon was in the top ten in points, and Ryan Newman was racing to a second win with Kasey Kahne already having two wins and being outside the top ten in points, and if there was compensation that was to be involved here, this would be a black mark more similar to the Black Sox Scandal than the MWR situation was, because there was compensation mentioned. One multi-car organization conspiring to fix a race is bad enough, but this exceeds even that, because you had two different organizations conspiring, plus there was some sort of compensation involved, and I'm shocked that Roger Penske would ever involve himself in something like this. Remember this is the same man that refused to buy into the 1995 Indianapolis 500 when both of his cars failed to qualify for that race, when many people thought he'd buy his way into that event. Why Penske would want to risk his own credibility and involve his organization in something like this is absolutely astounding. 1264. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I seriously doubt Logano will be punished for this. In the Clint Bowyer case, Bowyer deliberately spun out to help his teammate, changing the entire complexion of the race while also severely endangering other drivers. This changed almost nothing in the race (other than Logano gaining a position on Gilliland, of course), and as for the whole points battle, Logano would have made it in anyways, so it didn't really matter." Here's the thing though...the penalties weren't for Bowyer. They were for Vickers. I don't think there will be further penalties, but I don't think it will be because of a lack of similarity with the Bowyer case. 1265. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.11.2013 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The Long Shot, you're exactly right. Jeff Gordon is one of my favorite drivers, but I'd be very angry if NASCAR took Logano out and put Gordon in. 1266. joey2448 posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As far as Raikkonen going (back) to Ferrari, one part of me is excited simply because he'll be driving a quicker car, but I don't see this working out as well simply because him and Alonso will clash pretty hard vying to be the number one driver. But GO ICEMAN!!! As far as the radio communications between the 22 and 38 teams, there's no doubt that there was a deal struck between them to get Logano in the Chase, but I don't think NASCAR can prove that Gilliland intentionally slowed in the final three laps to let Logano go. Looking at the 22 roof cam, the 38 was simply racing and the 22 was able to pass him on the inside in turns 3 and 4. There's no way to prove Gilliland did anything questionable. I say there will be no more penalties. 1267. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:03 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I just hope if/when NASCAR doesn't penalize Penske/Front Row, they come out and in explicit terms tell us why this situation was different with the one with Waltrip. 1268. Scott B posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow... just wow. This is going to get interesting. If there is something highly incriminating in the audio, which damages NASCAR's credibility more... being inconsistant by not handing down similar penalties, or admitting that the deal making to alter the finishing order was more widespread than just one team? 1269. Kevin posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) It's ridiculous and incredibly naive to think that only MWR had these plans in place. Every single team on the bubble knew their position and what they needed to do to get in. Kasey, Jimmie, and Jr would have laid over for Jeff if the situation called for it. Throw Mark Martin into that too I guess if Newman would not have been affected. Burton, Harvick, and Menard would have helped Kurt get in. The Front Row guys would have helped the Biff if he had run into trouble and was back there. But MWR took the unprecedented step up deliberately causing a caution (ok maybe not unprecedented WHAT UP MENARD!) to try and save Truex's sinking chase hopes, and now Pandora's box has been opened on every little thing, because NASCAR penalized MWR and cited the #55's actions as the main reason instead of the #15's actions. NASCAR should shoulder the blame for a lot of this, for not warning teams and threatening them with suspensions and expulsion from the chase prior to the race because this is not exactly a new thing. Saying "no funny business tonight" is not exactly a good deterrent from participating in funny business. Saying "if you try and manipulate the outcome of this, you will sit at home indefinitely" is a much better way of preventing funny business. 1270. Matt G posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) No matter what Nascar does now, they are hopelessly screwed. If they do not issue penalties here, they will have their offices stormed with torches and pitchforks by scores of irate Gordon fans who will feel like they got jobbed even more and get crushed by those who will correctly point out that teams were not penalized consistently for laying down and giving up spots to manipulate the Chase Field. If they do penalize Logano, it's another black eye for the sport with even more cheating and more team orders ruling the day and it also means that Nascar has to bring down the hammer for every little thing team cars do or, once again, they will be seen as inconsistent. This is the absolute worst possible thing that could have happened to Nascar today. I would hate to be in their position. 1271. FloridaFan88 posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) This could be the controversy that finally nails the coffin on the existence of the Chase. 1272. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Can't we just get the cars back on the track and get back to racing? PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE. 1273. David posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "This could be the controversy that finally nails the coffin on the existence of the Chase." We can only hope... 1274. Scott B posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) 2013 Chase Field (Post-Penalties) 1. Michael McDowell 2. Reed Sorenson 3. J.J. Yeley 4. Landon Cassill 5. Tony Raines 6. Brian Keselowski 7. Ryan Truex 8. Max Papis 9. Paulie Harraka 10. Morgan Shephard 11. Mike Bliss 12. Brendan Gaughan Hmmm, actually that would be pretty entertaining... 1275. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) @1271 I would absolutely rage if they abolished the Chase, as I love it and have always been a big supporter of it, but sadly I too think these incidents may lead to the Chase going away. 1276. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The act of the 22 and 38 teams arranging to assist Logano in making the Chase is, by itself, not something I have a problem with, because that kind of thing happens all the time. Just look at the pass that ultimately decided the championship in 2011, when Jeff Burton simply moved over for Tony Stewart at the end of the race at Phoenix. That was one Chevrolet team assisting another in the #14's quest to catch Carl Edwards for the title. The act itself is something I have no problem with, and even a radio communication to have one driver let another pass doesn't bother me a great deal. What bothers me to no end in the 22/38 situation is the compensation involved. There was communications that the #38 team had where compensation was involved. There should be no place for that kind of thing in the sport, because that kind of thing, especially the way the #38 team put it, is simple extortion. If they did that on the street, they would be put in jail for it. But there's something more important going on here. What it looks like was that the 38 team, and by extension, the rest of Front Row Motorsports, wants to align themselves with Penske, instead of Roush, which tells me that this goes beyond simply making the Chase where the #22 is concerned, but rather significant internal strife between the Ford hierarchy. If Front Row is indeed trying to break from Roush and align themselves with Penske, then it tells me that there are, indeed, two factions in Ford, Penske's faction, which includes Germain Racing, and now quite possibly Front Row Motorsports, and Roush's faction, which includes Richard Petty Motorsports and the Wood Brothers. In other words, there could be a civil war brewing within the Ford ranks between Roush and Penske, and the other Ford teams are trying to figure out who to align themselves with. 1277. Anonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "I would absolutely rage if they abolished the Chase, as I love it and have always been a big supporter of it, but sadly I too think these incidents may lead to the Chase going away. " Poor bastard... 1278. Eric posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Here is my own my race-by-race and final standings predictions. Chicago: Matt Kenseth Loudon: Kyle Busch, Kurt Busch, or Ryan Newman Dover: Jimmie Johnson Kansas: Matt Kenseth Charlotte: Jimmie Johnson TALLADEGA: 2-Keselowski/15-Bowyer/20-Kenseth/29-Harvick/88-Dale, Jr. Martinsville: Jimmie Johnson Texas: Kyle Busch Phoenix: Carl Edwards Homestead: Matt Kenseth Here is my Championship Standings If Joey isn't out of the chase: 1.) Matt Kenseth (I think Matt will beat TRD Engine Problems and Matt's Crew makes great calls from the pitbox.) 2.) Jimmie Johnson (I think the team was experimenting before the chase, but the team was outclassed at some tracks) 3.) Kyle Busch (I know this is risky due to TRD, but I like him at the tracks better than rest of the times I will be mentioning) 4.) Carl Edwards (He is very study and could finisher in points, but he has weaknesses that will cost the championship). The 3 problems are Carl is tradionally a poor plate racer,Roush isn't known for being good at Martinsville, and I don't like Ford at mile and half tracks this year. 5.)Dale Jr (He is very steady and I see top tens, but rarely contending for wins will do him in for the chase) 6.) Newman (I might have him too high because of his comments of his crew after the Richmond race and I don't know how professional the 39 team will be besides the 39 not showing enough to be a championship caliber cup team) 7.)Kurt Busch (Bad Luck and bad pit crew) 8.) Kasey Kahne (the 5 car has been streaky, I don't like a couple tracks in the chase for Kasey, and Kasey isn't that aggressive going for wins. 9.) Joe Logano (I think not being in the chase before is going to be problem for him and possible distraction due to 22 and 38 radio communication controversy) 10.) Kevin Harvick (I don't Kevin doing much in the chase with him being a lame duck, 1 mediocre driver, and another teammate in the decline) 11.) Greg Biffle (Team hasn't impressed me at all this year and Roush isn't known for doing well at Martinsville) 12.) Clint Bowyer (Richmond incident ruins the focus of MWR and Clint mentally) 1279. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) It's a all a joke. It's all one big damn joke. This season needs to hurry the hell up and end. Every week it had been getting worse, now every DAY it is getting worse. If there is one positive to come out of the Joey situation, its that Gilliland taking a dive should benefit Front Row Motorsports long term. Surely Penske will give them whatever it is they are looking for to be more competitive. Would I be against the booting Joey, the guy I have started to warm up to after so many years of pissing on him every chance I get, for Gordon, the guy that I have always had immeasurable respect for as a WHEELMAN and cerebral master (those two rarely go together) but have never liked personally and feel he has constantly been the beneficiary of NASCAR's ball/strike calls? Nope. Fair is fair. But SpinGate benefited one team and one team only: MWR. And they screwed both Newman and Gordon. EquipmentGate benefited Logano and will hopefully benefit FRM as well. It only screwed Gordon, who was in position before the Gilliland dive due to some curious caution timings. The phantom debris caution right as Gordon became the lucky dog, about 2 seconds before Mark was gonna get lapped. Then NASCAR curiously waiting forever to throw the caution after JJ blew a tire, slammed the wall, then threw debris everywhere, finally throwing when, guess who, Jeff was in the lucky dog spot on pit road. So it is hard for me to feel bad for Jeff. Does he deserve to be in it this year? Yes. Would it be a lot more interesting with him in it? Yes (I could chronicle the annual "Gordon Fall in the Fall"). If I were running things, would he be in it? Yes. Again, fair is fair. But he has had more than enough go his way. It is easy to forget now because of the Chad/JJ/48 weekly technical infraction watch, but Jeff had more than his share, especially under Evernham. The T-Rex car? Sorry to ruin the "it was legal, it just exploited every gray area" fantasy. It was illegal. Remember qualifying when Jeff, one of the least mistake prone drivers ever, mysteriously missed his pit box during their special procedures? C'Mon! Coincidence? The Lone Gunman theory is more believable. The hubs in '95 that were only caught cause a wheel fell off in the 600? Are we supposed to believe Ray only put those on his car that week? They took him to 3 early wins that year which not only helped him establish a solid points position despite early inconsistency, it established confidence for the young racer. He wound up winning the Winston Cup that year by only 34 points. Oh, by the way, despite Ray getting a record fine, they took away no points. Cause they didn't want to inflict "double jeopardy" even though they have done that in the past. And as cjs has pointed out, the 24 team ran an illegal carb for the first 8 months of 2000 before Jeff said some stuff NASCAR didn't like and finally hammered them for it after (irony alert) the Fall Richmond race where Dale finished 2nd with the chance to win $1 million if he won. That illegal carb also cost Dale the Spring Dega race. Jeff won, Skinner was 2nd, and Dale was 3rd. Without Jeff up front, it would have come down to Skinner, who couldn't win a points race if it was stapled to his ass on a silver platter, and Dale, the legend, the guy who grabbed victory from the Jaws of defeat more than probably anyone. Who's your money on? So, by illegal parts, Jeff cost Dale a record 8th championship and at least 2 additional wins. So don't feel bad for Jeff. Feel bad for our sport which has been turned into a damn circus, the WWF on wheels. 1280. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "because that kind of thing, especially the way the #38 team put it, is simple extortion. If they did that on the street, they would be put in jail for it." Extortion? How about a damn good deal! Did Penske threaten to TAKE anything from FRM if Gilliland didn't take a dive? Nope. He offered to GIVE to FRM if Gilliland took a dive. It wasn't one of those "either you give me sexual favors or I will lower your pay and benefits" deals, it was "if you give me sexual favors, you will be Vice President of this company by next week". Again, I don't condone the Gilliland Dive, and the fair thing to do is yank Logano for Gordon. But again, don't feel bad for Jeff personally. Feel bad for the fact NASCAR has officially become the WWF on wheels. BTW, if you want extortion, look to the first ever chase and Richmond cutoff when the James Finch car (I can't even remember who was driving it) who was getting technical support from Ganassi in Cup and Busch refused to take a dive for Ganassi driver Jamie Mac, and Ganassi yanked his support. Ironically, 9 years later, this was Finch's last race as an owner, and Ganassi cars have only won 5 races since. Karma is a bi-atch. Anyways, THAT was extortion. 1281. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Actually DSFF, while Gordon won the spring race in Talladega in 2000 (his 50th win) and Mike Skinner was second, I believe you're incorrect about where Dale, Sr. finished. If I remember right, Dale, Sr. was actually fourth behind Kenny Irwin, Jr., who was driving SabCo's #42 car. That was just a few months before his death. Ironically, that was the same quartet that finished 1-4 in the 1999 Daytona 500. And Dale wouldn't have won his eighth championship anyway, because he finished more than a full race behind Bobby Labonte, who clinched at Homestead, which then was the next-to-last race. That, by the way, was the same race as the Jeremy Mayfield fuel fiasco, which actually carried over to the following week's race at Fontana, which Mayfield won, but was again penalized after his car was found to be too low. 1282. Kevin posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mike Wallace! I remember that. Ganassi wanted the spot for Jamie, but they wouldn't give it up cause it was their best run at a non-plate track. Someone said over the radio said we don't need it, it won't matter (they were right it wouldn't have mattered) and Chip exploded over the radio "WE SURE DO NEED IT!" 1283. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, no, DSFF. The extortion part would come in if Front Row didn't get whatever it was Penske promised them, because if they don't get that, then they would likely rat Penske out to NASCAR. Front Row was, in effect, extorting Penske, not the other way around. 1284. kup posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And ... now #99 won this race and leads the 2013 season in Non-Chase "Good Old" format! Jimmy Fennig is the Man! He won 2004 Chase with #97 over HMS gang and now leads with #99! 1285. Petty43 posted: 09.11.2013 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) So I used to frequent these boards when there were only like 100 posts per race, but this latest NASCAR shitstorm drew me here to see what fans were saying, and after reading through several hundred posts above from people I don't think were on here the last time I contributed something, of worth here I see that a there are a lot of pissed of race fans....GOOD you should be!!! this sport is shell of what it once was..and I go WAAAYYY back, hence the user name, but I still watch the racing, and I have a couple thoughts I want to share. 1 What everyone is overlooking is the fact that if NASCAR was not in such a damn hurry to throw a caution for every little bullshit spin, Clint Bowyer never would have got what he was looking for, I can't tell you how many times I saw a spin just like that one back in the day and they just kept on going, Harold Kinder would not of even considered pulling the yellow flag from its hole, so this is what you get NASCAR for not knowing how to call a race anymore, maybe they should go watch some F1 boys actually deal with some debris on the track. 2. I cannot remember a time in this sports history when there were this many drivers that I genuinely dislike, Bowyer, Logano, both Busch's, Harvick, Junebug, Newman, Edwards, Kenseth, Biffle, Danica, Montoya, Gilliland, Ambrose Menard, McMurray, Hamlin, even Brad K has done a lot to piss me off lately, although in some ways I find him refreshing, and Jeff Gordon is a tool who really can't drive worth a damn. So that leaves Mark, Smoke, Jimmie Johnson, Kasey Kahne, and I kind of like Truex even though he drives for that asshat Mikey. O and I kind of still like Burton and Bobby Labonte but man they stink. Finally I just want to defend Mr. H a little, I know he has a checkered past with the fraud issue and he got a pardon, also there has been some rumblings of cheating, but that sounds exactly like another guy that most of us were happy to see go in the FIRST HOF class!!!! JUNIOR JOHNSON!! He broke the law, got a pardon, and cheated on every single car he ever built, and when he could not cheat anymore he QUIT!!! So did Smokey, Yates, and ever mechanic/owner. Every driver who has ever won at least 10 races did so in at LEAST 0ne cheated up car I guarentee it, get your heads out of your asses and get over it CHEATING HAPPENS IN THIS SPORT AND THATS ONE OF THE REASONS WE LIKE IT SO MUCH. Who does not love to read about smokey and his 20 foot long fuel lines, or Banjo and his NOS, or Richard and his big Motor and Charlotte, or the T rex car. Cheating is the least of this sports problems, kill the chase, find a way to get more sponsors and owners, get some drivers who want to actually RACE and not follow the leader, and please please let the teams actually have some leeway in building the cars and motors again, when everyone has the exact same stuff it really kills the racing. 1286. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First MWR, now a supposed back room deal between Penske's #22 and FRM's #38. I don't know about ya'll, but right now I feel embarrassed to be a NASCAR fan. 1287. JP88 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:09 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Wow just watched the Craven/Bowyer interview and what a POS Bowyer is. Ricky had so much passion, you could tell and he nailed him on every point. Meanwhile Clint says "you don't understand the pressure." Really? F him. 1288. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I'm obviously biased being that I'm a Logano fan, but I really don't think what Penske did was really all that horrible. He was already locked into the Chase, and its not like what they did hasn't been done in a variety of forms before. Like when teammates let each other lead laps. Teams are going to find and exploit loopholes. Its a game. People are going to do whatever it takes to get ahead. My only real concern, as I stated before, is that NASCAR is going to go full kneejerk like they usually do and shit-can the Chase for next year. What some of the ignorant folk don't seem to get is that if NASCAR shit-canned the Chase, they would essentially be saying that all of the Chase seasons were somehow tainted or illegitimate. THAT would be a major loss of credibility for NASCAR, WAYYYYY more so than any of this cheating stuff has been. NASCAR is going to be fine in the long run. Like anything else, the season will go on, more races will be run, and last weekend will slowly start to fade into memory and replaced by new storylines. 1289. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kup, Jimmy Fennig's been doing it as a crew chief for more than a quarter century. Remember this is the same man that was the crew chief for the last two wins of Bobby Allison's career in the late 80s. He then guided Derrike Cope to his best overall season in 1995, nearly winning at Phoenix with Cope. Then when he got with Roush in 1997, Mark Martin had some of his best years, including the greatest year of his career in 1998, when he won seven times. And then as you mentioned, he won the title with Kurt Busch in 2004, and almost got David Ragan (yes, David Ragan) into the Chase as his crew chief in 2008. And then Matt Kenseth had his biggest year since 2006 with Fennig last year, and now Fennig has yet another driver on top of the points standings. Sounds like Fennig may wind up in the Hall of Fame one day with that resume. 1290. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Except MStall41, Logano was not in the Chase when the whole thing between his and the #38 team began. Jeff Gordon had taken the final spot in the top ten, and Logano was not even going to get a Wild Card because Ryan Newman was heading for his second win, and Kasey Kahne, also with two wins, was also out of the top ten, which would have put Logano out. If Bowyer had not spun on purpose, Logano likely would not have made it because Gordon would have been tenth in points, and there would have been two drivers out of the top ten with two wins each. 1291. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "My only real concern, as I stated before, is that NASCAR is going to go full kneejerk like they usually do and shit-can the Chase for next year." As much as I personally would love to see the Chase go away, I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. I seriously doubt they will get rid of it. They'll probably just make a new rule like "no looking at the point standings during the race whatsoever" or something like that to prevent any shadiness like this from happening again. 1292. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) No, Dale was 3rd and Irwin 4th in the 2000 Die Hard 500. Even if it were just Skinner and Irwin ahead of Dale in the end at Talladega, I project Dale as having a 99.7% chance of winning. Skinner could find a way to lose a Winston Cup points race if he were the only car entered and Irwin, may The Good Lord rest his soul, never really got the hang of stock cars. Remember in both Dega races in 1999 Dale was able to beat some really good drivers in the end to win both. Also, after the 2000 Die Hard 500 in the post race interviews, Dale once again took a public dump on the restrictor plate package of the day. It wasn't as epic as his interview after the Daytona 500, but he made it clear changes needed to be made. Actually, even after all his victories, he pissed on plate racing. Also, do you guys realize Jeff never won a "Winston 500"? That is about the only hole on his resume. Lets face it, the fact the Series sponsor was sponsoring the race is what made the Spring Dega race such a big deal for so long. They say it was because it was the "fastest" but it was only slighty faster than the Daytona 500 (210? 212? Does it make a huge difference?) and two "majors" thatare 500 mile superspeedway races is redundant. Notice when the Winston 500 moved to the Fall in 1998 they took the big money bonus with them. As for the extortion deal, I apologize for misunderatanding. But I gotta say, that is pretty savvy of FRM. And this is coming from a Brad fan and a guy who no longer hates Joey. 1293. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Unless NASCAR can get a hold of Penske communications that confirm what FRM said on their radio, NASCAR can't really do anything to Penske. Also, its important to note that since last week's race results are now official, Logano is officially locked into the Chase. The worst they could do his take points away from him AFTER Chicago. In essence, nothing else will probably come from this story other than to just further make last week's race look like more of a mess in retrospect. All this being said, I'm still predicting next week's TV Ratings will be up, perhaps significantly. You can all hold me to that prediction if you'd like. 1294. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) What some of the ignorant folk don't seem to get is that if NASCAR shit-canned the Chase, they would essentially be saying that all of the Chase seasons were somehow tainted or illegitimate. I disagree. Does anybody feel Richard Petty's 1974 Winston Cup championship is tainted? Yes he had the best season, but he won tje title that year cause he won the Daytona 500 then showed up for the rest of the races. He won 9 more cause he had pride and entered every race to win, but that was irrelevant in the end. 1295. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The thing about the Logano/Gilliland situation where the Penske team s concerned, DSFF, is that, if what was said on Race Hub is to be believed, NASCAR's not going to find anything on the #22 team's radio communications regarding the situation with the #38 team, because nothing was ever said on the #22 team's radio about it at any time. There might have been discussions between the spotters, but nothing about it was said on the #22 team's radio. That means if there was something going on, which there appears to have been, Penske was discreet about it. If those at MWR had been just as discreet, Truex would not have been thrown out of the Chase, and there would have been no penalties give to MWR. And as I've always said about the championships in the Chase-era, they're as legitimate as those won before the advent of the Chase, but the Chase has cheapened them because they didn't have to perform at all the races and at all the different kinds of tracks for the full season, but only have to perform for the last 10 races, half of which are on 1.5 mile tracks. 1296. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) Yes, but the '74 points system was only in place for one year. The Chase has been around for nearly a decade. Getting rid of it would essentially say that those ten years were worthless. Quite frankly, I think the Chase is a far better way of crowning a champion than the previous system. Who exactly created this "law" that a "true champion in racing" had to be the guy who amassed the most points over the course of a season? No other sports operates like this. Playoffs, in a general sense, are put in place to act as a way to reward teams who can both a) Perform well over the course of a season and b) Perform well in a condensed period of time in which the stakes are raised. The Chase accomplishes both of these points. Why CAN'T NASCAR have "Game 7 moments"? Why CAN'T NASCAR have a system in place that allows guys to perform in a situation in which stakes are raised? Just because other forms of motorsports do things a certain way, or because NASCAR did something a certain way in the past, does NOT mean that those ways of doing things are right. What if things were flip flopped? What if NASCAR implemented the Chase way back in 1949, and every champion from then until 2003 won via the Chase, and then NASCAR suddenly changed to a full-season points system the next year? The fans would have reacted exactly like they did when the Chase was implemented in real life, because the Pre-Chase system was all they knew. If we had the Chase from the start, and then the Chase was abolished, people would absolutely be asking for the Chase back because they would assume "the Chase" is the correct way to crown a champion. /endrant 1297. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "But the Chase has cheapened them because they didn't have to perform at all the races and at all the different kinds of tracks for the full season, but only have to perform for the last 10 races, half of which are on 1.5 mile tracks." BS. If anything, the winner is strengthened because he actually had to perform when it mattered, unlike the previous system where the winner just stroked it for most of the season after building a points lead early in the year. 1298. 83andJoe posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) MStall41, you must be the only person outside of NASCAR HQ who thinks the Chase is a good thing. 1299. David posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Quite frankly, I think the Chase is a far better way of crowning a champion than the previous system." There's always one in every crowd... 1300. cjs3872 posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) But MStall41, while it is important to perform under pressure, the plain truth is that with the tracks in the Chase being what they are, winning the championship today is not the thorough examination it was when you had to perform on all kinds of tracks for the full season. After all, the road courses and short tracks are often used as throw-away races because they really don't matter in terms of winning the championship. As I've said before, there are only four things a team has to do to contend for the championship now. Those four things are to do well on the 1.5 mile tracks, stay out of the wrecks at Talladega, which will guarantee a good finish, be okay at Martinsville, Dover, and Loudon, and not have any mechanical failures. If you do that, you'll contend for the title. The reason Jimmie Johnson has systematically dominated the Chase has to do with the fact that he excels at Dover and Martinsville, wins one of the 1.5 mile track races in the Chase, and usually stays out of the wrecks at Talladega. He usually gets such a big advantage at Dover and Martinsville that it really doesn't matter what anyone else does the rest of he way because he's so solid everywhere else. That's why his team's collapse at the end of last year's Chase is so shocking, because they were doing what he usually does when things that you wouldn't expect to have happen to them cost him the title, like the flat tire at Phoenix and the pit road miscue at Homestead. They have a set formula for winning the Chase, and I've predicted that they will follow it, because the three races in the Chase I've predicted they will win are Chicago, Dover, and Martinsville, and Dover and Martinsville usually give them such an advantage (probably 20 points on the field in those two races alone) that it doesn't matter what anyone else does if they're on their game plan everywhere else, which didn't happen last year, but I suspect will happen this year. 1301. Eric posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (5) Who gave my predictions post a thumbs down and why? There fact is there isn't a right or wrong predications since the chase didn't happen yet this season. 1302. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile... What was Brian France doing today in the midst of everything that's happened? He was welcoming Al Gore to his annual NASCAR "Green Summit"(check Brandon Igdalsky's timeline). 1303. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) I'm far from the only person who enjoys the Chase. To say otherwise would be horribly inaccurate. 1304. Eric posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My reasoning of Jimmie not be first is HMS doesn't seem as strong at mile and half tracks compare to the past. I am saying that because outside the 600, Toyota won rest of the mile and half races. The key is durability of the Toyota engine and is a gamble that I am willing to take. I also don't know if the 48 team of this year is like the 2011 and 2012 in terms of handling the chase. I didn't have Joey high for multiple reasons in points. 1.)Joey outside of the Bristol Night Race didn't finish in the top 10 in a short track race and Joey Logago has a bad season for plating racing so far also in terms of finishes. 2.)The fact the 38 slowed down due to by orders at Richmond because Joey needed a point getting into the chase shows Joey has problems with pressure. Joey didn't orders if he ran good at Richmond and Joey wasn't running well. The 2nd Richmond race is has a lot of pressure since Joey was in a close points battle for getting into the chase. 3.) Chase races are more pressure filled than the first 25 races before Richmond and that raises questions how Joey handles pressure since all 10 chase races are pressure filled. 1305. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "I'm far from the only person who enjoys the Chase. To say otherwise would be horribly inaccurate." Seconded. The Chase is flawed in some ways (I'd mostly be satisfied if they gave a reward to the points leader after Richmond, either monetary or points-wise), but I certainly enjoy it, and I don't particularly miss drivers clinching championships with multiple races to go. The only thing that I really hate about the Chase is that the summer races become meaningless test races. To everyone who thinks NASCAR might do away with the Chase because of recent controversies: don't get your hopes up too much, or NASCAR will do the opposite. They have, after all, made a habit of doing the opposite of what fans want over the years. Maybe we'll see a 32 driver Chase over the final 5 races, set up like an NCAA Tournament bracket where only head-to-head matchups matter. It might actually be interesting (Jimmie Johnson blows a tire and is upset by David Gilliland!) but it would be a terrible way to determine a NASCAR champion. 1306. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Perhaps the biggest flaw, in my opinion, with The Chase is that no real thought into the schedule. The only reason the 10 tracks were initially chosen as the Chase tracks is because they just happened to be the last 10 tracks of the season. If you're going to have some sort of playoff in NASCAR (and I'm not saying that's a good thing and I'm not saying it's a bad thing) the tracks should have to make the case for why they deserve the honor of being in the playoffs, not just get a race because they happened to fall on the schedule that way. 1307. Matt G posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree with these posts. I actually like the idea of the Chase, I just believe it was put in place for the wrong reasons. There's two big issues with it in my mind that have already been touched on above. 1) There is not enough of a reward for the guy who finishes on top after 26 races. There needs to be something given to that team. Not only is it fair, but it also makes the battle for first in the summer months far more interesting since there's something on the line now. Nascar doesn't want to give too many points since the whole purpose of the Chase is to bunch guys up with ten races to go, but I always loved the idea of giving the winner of the first 26 races the #1 choice of pit stall for all ten Chase races. (From there, the pole winner picks second, the guy who qualifies second picks third and so on...) This would really turn things up a notch and throw the experimentation we sometimes see in July and especially August out the window. 2) The tracks in the Chase are a disgrace. Mile and a half after mile and a half after mile and a half, three smaller flat track in Martinsville, Phoenix, and New Hampshire (with only Martinsville putting on a good show), and the wild card of all wild cards in Talladega. Dover is really the only track that has a driving style that stands completely on it's own besides Dega which is such a crapshoot anyway. If you're going to have a ten race dash to determine a champion, make sure you're testing all different skill sets with all different types of tracks. It would be far more compelling for the fans, and it would do a better job of identifying the best drivers and teams. At the very least, I would begin by replacing one of the 1.5 milers with a road course. That's not a finishing point, but it's a damn good place to start. 1308. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Don't confuse "grudging acceptance" with "enjoying" the chase. We know it isn't going anywhere. That is the baby of the modern day suits in Daytona Beach, and those guys love the smell of their own shit. 1309. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I should point out that I fully agree that the Chase has its flaws, and I have many ideas as to how to fix it. 1310. murb posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Who exactly created this "law" that a "true champion in racing" had to be the guy who amassed the most points over the course of a season? No other sports operates like this." On the same token, no other MOTORsports operate with a playoff system (except for NHRA, I think - but they have a discipline in which it makes a lot more sense). There's no "law" that says anything. I just think that most people think that the most logical way to crown a champion in motorsports is to have them prove themselves over an entire season uninterrupted. 1311. MStall41 posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) By that logic, playoffs shouldn't exist in any sport. Take baseball for instance. Each team plays every other team as many as 3-15 times a year, a total of 162 games. Surely the team with the best record after that many games is the best, no? Yet they still have a playoff system. NASCAR is no different. The fans just don't like change, and for some strange and silly reason they don't like when NASCAR is compared to stick and ball sports. If you asked the casual sports fan, I doubt they'd have much trouble accepting it. My non-racing fan friends think it makes perfect sense. Racing people just get so caught in their own world sometimes that they think everything has to be done a certain way or else its "NOT LEGIT!!!!!111" 1312. The Long Shot posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the Chase if they did two things to improve it (both of which were mentioned in previous comments): improve the schedule and reward the regular season points leader. Schedule: The first half of the Chase schedule is an absolute joke. Chicagoland, Loudon, Dover, Kansas, and Charlotte to start off? Cue the snoring. This would be the ideal Chase schedule for me: 1. Indianapolis 2. Road America (before the Wisconsin snow rolls in) 3. Bristol 4. Talladega 5. Richmond 6. Phoenix 7. Martinsville 8. Homestead 9. Atlanta 10. Daytona (I like the idea of Daytona both opening and closing the season) Points: There's a simple solution for this. Along with the bonus points for wins, bonus points are awarded for where the person finished in the standings. For example, 1st place would get 12 points, 2nd place would get 11 points, 3rd place would get 10 points, and so on until 12th place is awarded 1 point. Here is what the standings would look like under that system: 1. Matt Kenseth: 2023 2. Jimmie Johnson: 2023 3. Kyle Busch: 2021 4. Carl Edwards: 2018 5. Kevin Harvick: 2016 6. Greg Biffle: 2007 7. Dale Earnhardt Jr.: 2007 8. Joey Logano: 2006 9. Clint Bowyer: 2006 10. Kurt Busch: 2005 11. Ryan Newman: 2002 12. Kasey Kahne: 2001 1313. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.11.2013 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) NASCAR compares itself to baseball by using "ball" and "strike" calls from its officials. However, in baseball, if a pitcher intentionally plunks a hitter, he gets suspended even though it's hardly ever admitted as intentional by the pitcher. However, in NASCAR, 99 percent of the evidence may be present, but that still isn't conclusive enough for NASCAR to make a ruling, as was the case from the Bowyer investigation. The credibility of everything NASCAR is tanking rapidly. The best thing for France and Helton right now is for the Chicago weekend to arrive. 1314. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1275. MStall41 posted: @1271 I would absolutely rage if they abolished the Chase, as I love it and have always been a big supporter of it, but sadly I too think these incidents may lead to the Chase going away. ^ Same I really do respect the chase. Maybe I'm biased because 2004 was my first full season, but would any of you here care to watch another 2003? 1994? 1987? 1973? Or how about something more frustrating, like 1985? Elliot earned that championship as a driver, and his team earned it as a team, save for some very stupid, silly mechanical and on-track errs. Face it, a very large amount of the pre-chase championships could be won after 1969 just by showing up every race. THen it morphed into showing up for every race, and winning a few, and pad your point finishes. By 1995-2003, it was still the same with one add-on: Win some races, show up for every race, get top-15 finishes week in and week out. Edwards would have walked away with the 2011 championship via that and no one else would have even came close. Is that the NASCAR you really want? Two or Three good Championship seasons out of every 10 years? The majority of them being memorable due to mechanical atrophy/tire atrophy, or a bunch of f*ed up races and F*ed up luck like in 1994 and 2002? Or would you rather have a 6-7 memorable championship 26-then-10 race runs where each season was notable for something different? I know the majority of you on this site loathe the chase, but let us look at this. Despite Mechanical Atrophy in the FINAL race in 2004, Ku. Busch still preserved for what was-at-the-time, the closest NASCAR championship battle ever. Or 2005, possibly the most competitive Chase Field Ever? 2006 and 2010? The Shock and awe at 2011, even though some say it was fixed, and the nail-biter of last year? You guys and this site have ran the numbers yourselves. IF not for the chase, you guys will NOT be remembering those years later on due to points. Besides, if you pull a Matt Kenseth 2003 in the chase era, your probably going to be f*ed viva Edwards 2011 *Just remember that Kenseth had a crash at Kansas in 2003, which is mid-chase*. I say that the reason Two Drivers have won 7 of the 9 Chase championships is because the sameness of the tracks. Of all the tracks that have been in the chase: Chicago, Loudon, Dover, Kansas, Atlanta, Texas, California, Charlotte, Phoenix, Darlington, Talladega, Martinsville, Homestead How many of them are 1.5-2 milers? I count seven of them *As I consider Homestead a 1.5 miler, just not a tri-oval one*. The problem witht he Chase isn't it's existence as much of a lack of diversity. The end of the season schedule has not changed THAT dramatically from the pre-chase era, where the final 10 races were just point-pilers. We've had most of the tracks as the last 12 races of the season for about 12 years, since Kansas' opening. The only noteworthy exceptions would be the loss of Darlington and California. The end-of-the-season is to D@nm familiar to the drivers. We all can agree on that. Here would be my chase: 1: Kansas 2: Charlotte 3: Dover 4: Phoneix 5: Martinsville 6: Darlington 7: Talladega 8: Texas 9: Atlanta 10: Infenion Note the variety of driving styles that would be nesscar. Yes, 1.5 milers still take 4 of the 10 spots, but Altanta has a much older track surface, Kansas and Charlotte's are still relatively new, and I don't think Texas has undergone a repave, so it's somewhere in the middle. Dover and Martinsivlle sport two different types of short track racing. Darlington is a TRUE DRIVER and CAR track, You need speed and a great driver to get anything done there. Talladega is the wild-card that the chase needs in case someone does figure most of the 9 other tracks out. Phoneix races like a short-track with some road-racing qualities. Infenion hearkens back to the 1971-1986 tradition of ending the season in California, which symbolizes a journey from coast to coast *Flordia to California* over the course of a year. Not to mention how much strategy and how good of a driver you are both have to come in play perfectly there. 1315. Eric posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Destroyahirismix666, Texas was repaved after the 2001 Indy car and I think was repaved again in 2006. 1316. 83andJoe posted: 09.11.2013 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) >By that logic, playoffs shouldn't exist in any sport. Take baseball for instance. Each team plays every other team as many as 3-15 times a year, a total of 162 games. Surely the team with the best record after that many games is the best, no? Yet they still have a playoff system. Just because everybody else does something doesn't make it right. Don't even get me started on the "college football playoff" that's coming. *spit* >If you asked the casual sports fan, I doubt they'd have much trouble accepting it. And the casual sports fan has repeatedly shown that they don't care about NASCAR... 1317. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) Why CAN'T NASCAR have "Game 7 moments" 1979 Ontario (Darrell led by 2 points entering) 1990 Atlanta (Dale led Mark by 6 points entering) 1992 Atlanta (do I need to explain this one?) And this doesn't include season finales like '97 when Gordon was saved by the bell both on the track and in the points race, '80 when Dale held a 19 point lead entering and got himself off the hook after two potentially horrific blunders, '89 when Rusty had every imagineable issue while Dale dominated, meaning Rusty had to be saved over the final 100 miles by the normal attrition of the day, cars falling out of the race between him and Dale proved the difference. This was between 1975-2003. Not a bad percentage of battles that came down to the last few laps. And then there are seasons where the points would have been CLOSER were it not for the chase like 2006 and 2012. And to say the chase has produced nothing but Game 7 moments is beyond erroneous. 2004 and 2011 are the only two I can think of. 2005 was over when JJ wrecked before the sun even set. JJ's first 4 championships were clinched by not wrecking, and his 5th one was pretty much won on Lap 24 when Denny choked 14 laps after we all expected him to. And last year when JJ had a loose wheel then broke, it allowed Brad to have 100 victory laps before drinking 100 beers on live TV. And then there is this: Look at basketball. Most of their Game 7s in the finals suck. The one this year was two teams going through the motions. The 2010 Lakers/Celts Game 7 was one of the worst executed games ever. Kobe shot 6 for 24 and won MVP. The one between the Spurs and Pistons was a ratings disaster. And the one in 1994..... who cares? MJ was playing baseball, basketball was irrelevant. And who says it has to be Game 7 to be exciting. I read an SI article recently I liked a lot. It was making the argument the greateat Finals ever was in 1993. It only went 6 games, but the road team won 5 of those games. It had a 3OT thriller, MJ at his best averaging 41 points per game, Charles Barkley was at his best, and the final game was clinched with the Bulls down by 2 and unsung hero John Paxson nailing a CLUTCH 3 pointer in the final seconds. The same guy who finished off the Lakers in Game 5 of the '91 Finals for MJ's first title. The chase was a bad mistake we are all having to live with. 1318. MStall41 posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) The casual sports fan disinterest in NASCAR has everything to do with the crappy COT era racing and nothing to do with the playoff system. 1319. Anonymous posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So is there any news on the Logano / Gilliland front? Or even any news on when there will be news? I just want to know what the Chase Field is going to be instead of spending the whole week wondering. 1320. Bro Jackson posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (5) I don't believe the Chase field will be changing again. It shouldn't. 1321. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:48 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) "By that logic, playoffs shouldn't exist in any sport. Take baseball for instance. Each team plays every other team as many as 3-15 times a year, a total of 162 games. Surely the team with the best record after that many games is the best, no? Yet they still have a playoff system." not true in other sports, not everybody plays the same schedule. So not all equal records are actually created equal. In the NFL, team A could go 14-2, team B 13-3, but team B may of played a much tougher schedule. That is where a need for a playoff comes in. In NASCAR, everybody has the same schedule and opponents every week. 1322. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:00 am Rate this comment: (4) (1) 1306 really hits on something. Everything about the chase is arbitrary. As 1306 said, there was no rationalization for the tracks chosen to be part of the chase, they just happened to be the last 10 tracks in the current schedule. If the 10 tracks were a balance of tracks that tested all the skills that should be needed to be a champion, than I could buy the idea of the chase to a certain extent. Also, there is no rationalization in the point reset distribution. In other sports, teams get a big leg up for having the best record during the regular season, they get homefield and in the NFL, they get homefield and a bye. In NASCAR, the best in the regular season gets nothing, there isn't a difference between being the 1 seed or grabbing the last spot. These two problems make the chase come off purely as a gimmick. It's basically turns the NASCAR season into Family Feud, "it's the final round, we are going to triple the the points!", in other words, whoever wins the last round, wins the game. 1323. 12345Dude posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:42 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'll tell you why the chase doesn't work. (compared to playoffs in other series) 1. The regular season means jack. Matt Kenseth (most bonus points earned) talks about the chase: 'Well we all start with a blank sheet of paper, and know we have to get to work now.' Clint Bowyer (no bonus points earned) talks about the chase: I'm excited because everyone starts at 0 and now we get to prepare for these 10 races and show our-self. In "stick and ball sports" regular season success determines: 1. Home court advantage 2. Who you're going to face (instead of 43 people you face one team) 3. You might even be able to play one less game. In NASCAR the regular season means............................................................................................................................. Oh yippie Matt Kenseth has 15 more bonus points (the driver with the most out of anyone) and Bowyer (one of the 7 drivers with 0 points). WOW! Let's say Kenseth has an off race in the first chase race and finishes 15th. Let's say Bowyer finishes 5th. There tied in points! And there are 9 chase races left. Let's say Kenseth has a tire go down and finishes 35th. Bowyer finishes 5th. Bowyer now has a 15 point lead over Kenseth AFTER 1/10 CHASE RACES. If you ask any driver they will tell you they have the "regular season" down to a science. You compete in only some races and you take "off weeks" during some of the races. Tracks that don't effect the chase? Those have been off-weeks since the beginning of the Chase. Remember when I showed you guys the "chase champions" statistics when I was ranting about how Jimmie Johnson is undervalued. Those stats prove drivers are taking plenty of off-weeks. I have never heard of NFL teams, NBA teams, NFL teams etc. taking tons of off-weeks during the season. Because the games effect the playoffs.....why? Because there extremely hard to get into. 2. The chase is way too easy to get into. Shell yeah I'm taking off-weeks. Here's a stat for you. In 2012 24 teams had at least ONE top 10 in THIRTY SIX races. 12 of them made the Chase. 3. Drivers since the beginning of the chase have been taking off-weeks at tracks that don't effect the Chase tracks. And never will effect the Chase tracks. Bristol (No track in Chase is like it. It will never have a chase date because it can "get a crowd without a chase date" plus the Daytona Beach guys get all gitty with the Bristol night race 2 races before Richmond. Bristol being the 24th race of the year and in the Chase? The drivers know that won't happen) Richmond (will always be last race before the chase. Same as Bristol. Have Richmond be 26th race of year and in chase? Yeah right) Darlington (been an "off-week" because it's way too grueling (to give 100%) to not be a chase race. Why ware myself out so much for a non-chase race that setup and driving wise isn't like any chase races? It's been an off-week since 2005) Pocono (FOREVER it has been know as the hardest track to setup up for. It is humanely impossible to make your car good in all the corners. You master one corner you ruin your race with the others. People say the greatest win at Indianapolis. No, the greatest win at Pocono. At least they used to. Why work that hard on a track like Pocono? Are any chase races like Pocono? Is there going to be a chase race (which is in winter) at Pocono? Or yeah I bet! Off-week) Michigan (Winter "chase" race in Michigan? Oh I bet. Off-week. The home of the auto industry. More like an off-week.) Road Courses ( Road courses are a completely different than ovals. I should learn-master them because?.......... Off-weeks) Kentucky (Not a "big enough" market. Plus people are so angry Kentucky took Atlanta's date. Now we put it in the Chase?) Atlanta (Amount of people that show up > Quality of racing. Supposedly when Bruton Smith was in talks with the Atlanta guys he told them if he didn't get a certain amount of money (or something he wanted) he was going to replace one of their dates. There still mad at each other supposedly. Angry Bruton Smith = Atlanta Chase Race?????) ***These tracks are off-weeks unless a driver has a chance at a win......maybe. But drivers are definitely going to work harder (minus Ryan Newman) at Texas instead of Darlington. Personally I don't like that. Teams in other sports don't compete against race tracks which VASTLY effect their performance. That's what makes NASCAR unique. Until they fix these problems the Chase will always be a joke. 1324. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:48 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I could design The Chase, it might look similar to this (haven't put too much thought into, yet still more thought than NASCAR perhaps) The way I see it the tracks in NASCAR can be broken down into several categories: Restrictor plates (Daytona and Talladega) 1 mile flat ovals (Phoenix and New Hampshire) cookie cutters (Las Vegas, Kansas, Kentucky, and Chicago) 2 mile ovals (Auto Club and Michigan) short tracks (Bristol, Martinsville, and Richmond) quad-ovals (Texas, Charlotte, and Atlanta) road courses (Sonoma and Watkins Glen) Unique tracks (Darlington, Dover, Pocono, Indianapolis, and Homestead-Miami) My Chase would take one from each category with the exception of the unique tracks, which would get 3. So here goes... 1. Darlington-Southern 500 (back on Labor Day with The Chase starting a week early) 2. Wtakins Glen-the best of the 2 road courses. 3. Phoenix-1 mile flat oval and I like it better than New Hampshire 4. Las Vegas-the best of the cookie cutters in my opinion 5. Auto Club-I think this track is a pretty decent track now, to be honest 6. Indianpolis-under the lights. Let's at least try to revive a dying race. 7. Homestead-Miami-I actually like this track, but I've got better plans to end the season. 8. Bristol-under the lights, I like the idea of this track being in The Chase 9. Atlanta-the best of the quad ovals. Really enjoyed the race I just went to there. 10. Daytona-why not start a new tradition and END the season with the 500? That why the two biggest prizes in NASCAR are given out the same night. Would anyone be offended by that? 1325. joey2448 posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:50 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Much like Darrell Waltrip's experience in 1989 (and 1990), I bet Jeff Gordon ends up with the Most Popular Driver award for 2013, breaking the stranglehold that Dale Earnhardt Jr. has had on it, mostly because of him missing the Chase. Lot of people say Waltrip won it in 1989 because of Rusty Wallace spinning him at the Winston that year, which consequently gave DW a "good guy" image. 1326. 12345Dude posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sorry about question make signs and question marks. I always forget not to do this in word. I was thinking more about the richmond thing having people talking. @1112 MStall @1123 Murb The problem with this is Chicago isn't a good track. I'm afraid it's going to be too hard to pass and the leader is going to be too far away. And people will tune out. I hope I'm wrong. @1192 CJS Was it Richard Childress or was it Jeff Burton that kept Clint in line CJS? The Mayor or Richard? I'm starting to believe more and more that Richard (and Austin) think there two bad dudes. I don't know if they would help Clint. 1327. 83andJoe posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) And now Jimmie Johnson is saying there should be an immediate red flag and investigation in "any questionable circumstances". Really, Jimmie? Really? 1328. Scott. B posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:33 am Rate this comment: (2) (0)  #1321 pretty well sums up why a playoff system is not needed in racing. Let's talk about why it does exist It's there because TV execs had fears ratings would dive when NASCAR went head to head against the NFL in the fall. To be more specific, they feared a driver clinching a championship before the last race would be the worst thing ever. So, now we have a system that makes the final 10 races more important than the first 26. And, we have a system where clinching before the final race is unlikely. But, let's ask ourselves if that situation would really make the final race unwatchable to fans. The reality is you'd have 43 drivers and teams with no reason to points race that week, which sounds like a fine idea to me. 1329. 12345Dude posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) But Zackary your still going to have the problem of drivers not caring about the races not in the chase. In my opinion in order for it to work you need 2 new tracks per year in the Chase. 1330. 12345Dude posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:51 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well more about the Chicago thing new people watching couldn't hurt. But scott the ratings aren't any better. There's more of a difference between the first 26 and last 10 compared to when there wasn't a chase. The ratings aren't any better. And a lot of old fans are so fed up with the idea of the Chase, that they can't take the championship as seriously. 1331. b4il3y posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just gonna say this friends. I love it.. the sport has finally hit the bank of dirt it needed to with all the changes in the past few years. This "Richmondgate", as it will come to be known, will change the sport for the better. A precedent has been set, as at comes to team orders. We don't need that. Racing is what we want. Smart move, but not smart enough...as the sponsors have already spoken to MWR. I hope more changes come before this farce called a chase, and then next year we can go back to the norm. Too bad we can't bring races back to the Rock and other short tracks that deserve them... but hey, this is the year everyone woke up. And BTW, poor marks to the teams giving orders over the radio, everyone and God can hear them.. get better at giving orders to cheat :) That was awful :) 1332. b4il3y posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) MY 10 chase races. This is just my own opinion.. and a pipe dream :) 1. Talledega 2. Darlington 3. The Rock 4. Eldora (yeah, you heard me) 5. Bristol 6. The Glen 7. Charlotte 8. Martisville 9. Random short track. (South Boston, Caraway, HICKORY!) 10. Daytona And, this will be unpopular, or maybe so... who knows. GET RID OF THOSE DAMN PLATES. If you want to know why.. just ask me. Ill just say this.. those with the balls to run on the big tracks without them, deserves to win. Nuff said for me. 1333. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 12345Dude, if what you say is true then that says more about the competitors than it does The Chase. I just can't imagine TRUE professionals wouldn't try to give it their all every week. 1334. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:05 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "And, this will be unpopular, or maybe so... who knows. GET RID OF THOSE DAMN PLATES. If you want to know why.. just ask me. Ill just say this.. those with the balls to run on the big tracks without them, deserves to win. Nuff said for me." Just as long as I get to pick where you sit for those races...I've been to Talladega 3 times and will be going for a fourth in October. it's scary enough with the plates, knowing the history (including something that happened at it's sister track just a mere 8 months ago). 1335. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:44 am Rate this comment: (1) (4) "6. Austin Dillon (Continuing the legacy of the black #3 car...)" How the hell does a driver that has nothing to do with Big E, carry on the legacy of the Earnhardt name? Earnhardt died driving the black #3. The number needs to be retired out of respect for that fact. They retired Richie Evans #61 in Modifieds, out of respect, because he perished in that car at Martinsville. Does Austin Dillon really believe he deserves to drive the Black #3? 1336. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here is an unusual Gordon stat that JG fans will appreciate: Gordon broke his tie with Mark Martin for the most finishes of 8th or better in the Modern era with his 385th. 1337. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) *385 is 3 short of Martins record of 388. I miscounted. Gordon has 303 Top 5's Martin has 271 Top 5's Gordon has 337 Top 6's Martin has 320 Top 6's Gordon has 360 Top 7's (Gordon tied Martin at Atlanta) Martin has 360 Top 7's Gordon has 385 Top 8's Martin has 388 Top 8's 1338. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:01 am Rate this comment: (3) (3) Why the Chase isn't needed: 1979, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2002 1339. Anthony posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:01 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) They'll be deciding whether the #38 & #22 communications would keep Logano in or out. 1340. MarkMartinFan posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:01 am Rate this comment: (3) (6) Has anyone else noticed that, as long as they aren't the ones getting penalized, the first people to start running their mouths are Rick Hendrick, Jeff Gordon, or/and Jimmie Johnson? 1341. We need more Onion posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (3) That's it... Jimmie rockets back to the driver I dislike the most with this: "Johnson proposed halting a race with a red-flag to review any questionable circumstances, similar to an NFL-style replay timeout" No, it is already fabricated enough and that would give him and his team even more chances to repair his car after his mess-ups. Of course, these reds would be made to help HMS, if actually started being used imo. 1342. Smiff_2 posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thursday morning release from NASCAR: "NASCAR is continuing to gather all the facts from last Saturday nights NASCAR Sprint Cup Series event at Richmond International Raceway. NASCAR will have no further comment until all the facts have been examined" Ohhhh BOY (Sam Beckett style) Whatta ya wanna bet the announcement will come tomorrow that Logano's out and Gordon's in? 1343. The Sound posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Honestly, as a Gordon fan, I don't want him in the Chase. He hasn't been good enough to win a championship all year. I believe Logano would be a preferable choice over him. However, Joey's performance at Richard was quite atrocious. I can only imagine the storm that would unleash if they actually do tinker with the Chase one more time. It's beginning to become more and more of a farce. 1344. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not happening. No points penalties are coming. NASCAR has to have the twelve drivers set for their precious "Contenders Live" event. 1345. Petty43 posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Here is how I would alter the chase, its really quite simple. win one of the first 26 races and you are in the chase, only wins matter, no points, then once the chase begins each win is worth 20 points ( a driver who wins 4 races starts with a 60 point lead on a driver with 1 win) know you get the drama of richmond at every race, also I would consider bonus points for leading large chunks of laps, not just one, I want teams to go for it and try to dominate. As far as the ten tracks I don't care much about that. So many of them suck now, but I would like a couple more short tracks. Here's where it gets really wild though after Miami the teams would make the short trip to Daytona and race a 11th chase race at Daytona the very next day, its a 50 lap prime time race and each lap led counts for 3 points, no points for the win. If a driver needs to swing 33 points on the leader, he better get up front. Caution laps have no point value and do not count toward the 50. Now I personally would hate this, but I think Nascar would love it, and it is WAY less confusing than wildcards, trying to figure out who is getting in, just win a race your in. 1346. 83andJoe posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) >Whatta ya wanna bet the announcement will come tomorrow that Logano's out and Gordon's in? Not unless NASCAR is going to say that all the /thousands/ of times since 1948 a driver has given another driver "professional courtsey" were Actions Detrimental To Stock Car Racing, no. 1347. Bronco posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "Has anyone else noticed that, as long as they aren't the ones getting penalized, the first people to start running their mouths are Rick Hendrick, Jeff Gordon, or/and Jimmie Johnson?" Have you forgotten about Brad Keselowski? He is usually right up there as far as providing his opinion on other people's penalties. However now that his teammate is under investigation he has been surprisingly quiet, although part of that has to do with his missing the Chase as defending champion, which has been the dose of humble pie that he has needed for a while now. 1348. Kwikfixfan posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bronco, I think you are a bit too harsh. Iirc, when Jimmie got penalized for the jump earlier he was not very quiet about it. In addition, my gut guess is that Logano will not be penalized - but Nascar will investigate. The main difference between Logano and the MWR group is that Bowyer's spin is an unsafe action (and probably prohibited ito the rules) 1349. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @1345, do you know how much cheating that would promote? If that's what mattered, then teams are going to cheat all they can to get a win, not to mention the funny business that went on Saturday night. And as for the Daytona situation, which is a terrible idea (and I'm glad you say you disagree with it), all a driver has to do is get the lead and he'll never lose it, because it's impossible to pass with the current package. So in theory, if a driver gets a front row spot, he can get the lead and never seriously be challenged. 1350. Petty43 posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @1349 thank you for proving to me why nascar sucks so bad right now, nobody can pass at Daytona, ughh, can fox just show us one season a year starting with 1985, and just not show the current races!!! 1351. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Who exactly created this "law" that a "true champion in racing" had to be the guy who amassed the most points over the course of a season? No other sports operates like this." Well, you've made a better argument for the Chase than almost anybody I've ever read. But let's flip it. Who decided playoffs in OTHER SPORTS are right? If the team that won the most games in a "stick and ball" sport was declared champion, it would be infinitely fairer than determining the champion by a much smaller sample size. When answering the question of, "Who is the best team?" it makes more sense to consider the entire season than just a small portion of the season. Playoffs create artificial excitement in EVERY sport by greatly increasing the luck factor. This is apparently what fans want in other sports, and honestly the only justification for the other major leagues having playoffs is tradition (look at how much more recently added playoffs have come under criticism in other sports - the BCS and its replacement). But it increases the spectacle and makes it less likely that the best team will actually be rewarded. A bit more likely in the NBA, NHL, and MLB at least because they have multiple-game series as opposed to say the NFL or the NCAA basketball tournament which are one-and-done. I think not having playoffs made racing purer... Additionally, there are a number of reasons playoffs are even worse in NASCAR than in the other mainstream sports. One is the lack of elimination. If this were a real playoff system, all the non-chase teams would be kicked off the track after race 26, then the lowest X cars should be removed from the track after each Y races. Boring as hell, right? But THAT is a real playoff. THIS is not. Also, playoffs only really work for team sports, not individual sports. Yes, I know auto racing IS a team sport but in most series, it's the driver who receives most of the plaudits. Finally, there's the fact that everybody competes against the same cars and teams every race, so there are no differences in strength of schedule among drivers who compete all season (this is almost the only justification for playoffs in other sports). That fact also makes it much more difficult to give the top seeds any sort of advantage, which also increases the randomness of it. Then there are the usual flaws of how awful NASCAR's points scale is and always has been, as well as the fact that the last ten races are less diverse than the schedule in general. It seems like the percentage of casual fans who support the Chase is much greater than the percentage of hardcore fans, but I think if hardcore fans of other sports were honest with themselves, they'd realize that awarding the championship to the team that had the most wins would be more effective at rewarding the best team than a playoff system. More boring, but there is a trade-off between fairness and excitement that is accepted in other sports that never belonged in racing. I understand that playoffs in other series are traditional, and frankly, in my mind, that is the only reason they should exist even in the other major league sports. If somebody clinches early, somebody clinches early. However, I support a points system where the top positions are awarded much more significantly than they are, which would make it easier to make comebacks... This would allow the driver to play a bigger role in the championship result and remove the luck factor as mid-pack finishes wouldn't be rewarded nearly as much as they presently are. NASCAR should have tried a better points system first, then if that failed, maybe I'd be resigned to the chase. I'll agree with DSFF that 2004 and 2011 were the only Chases that were even compelling, and probably at least 2/9 years would have been compelling even with the old points system. "On the same token, no other MOTORsports operate with a playoff system (except for NHRA, I think - but they have a discipline in which it makes a lot more sense)." NHRA introduced the Countdown AFTER NASCAR started the Chase. It was essentially a ripoff, but it is better for several reasons. Although everyone competes on the same drag strips against the same drivers in NHRA just as much as in NASCAR, at least NHRA understands the elimination concept of playoffs and eliminates several drivers from the Countdown after each X events. The flip side is that the points are reset several times, so it ends up having more and more to do with luck rather than reflecting an entire season's performance. However, having a champion based on elimination is more consistent with an elimination-based racing series than a more traditional racing series, so it doesn't bother me as much. I still think it sucks though. Also, it's not a law that playoffs determine the fairest champion in other sports either. I happen to think they frequently don't. As for the Gilliland/Logano thing, it's too late to fix that and I'm okay with that. NASCAR was screwing Logano all race in favor of Gordon, and had the race been officiated properly (i.e. Gordon continuing to be trapped a lap down), Logano would have not fallen out of the top ten. Additionally, Logano has been much faster on a regular basis in general and quite frankly under the kind of points system I would want, Gordon wouldn't have been anywhere near that close to Logano. I realize it shouldn't be up to the teams to counteract NASCAR's gimmicks with gimmicks of their own, and I suppose the penalty for the Vickers incident opens a can of worms for this, but I really hope they don't here, as inconsistent as it may be. I'm sure NASCAR's salivating at anything that they can use to get Gordon into the chase though, which is why I think it might happen. "12345Dude, if what you say is true then that says more about the competitors than it does The Chase. I just can't imagine TRUE professionals wouldn't try to give it their all every week." Yeah, totally, and that's how I feel about other sports too. "I'm shocked that Roger Penske would ever involve himself in something like this." I'm not. ALL the corporate owners are scum, and he had a history of manipulating the competition in CART. I really loved a column Michael Daly wrote after the 1999 Bristol Night Race condemning the last-lap crash but not feeling sorry for Terry Labonte because Earnhardt won the race for a "racer" team while Labonte won the race for a "money" team. I don't agree with him very much at all, but when he's right, he's right. Having said that, I didn't agree with ALL his classifications as to which teams are corporate and which teams are pure racers. I would say almost ANY team capable of winning multiple races a year (F1, IndyCar, or NASCAR) is corporate. F1 has had no non-corporate team win in many years (perhaps decades). NASCAR still has occasional flukes where they win, but usually on road courses (Ambrose/RPM) or plate tracks (Front Row Motorsports!) IndyCar has been the best in that regard this season, with Simon Pagenaud (Sam Schmidt), Takuma Sato (A.J. Foyt), and Mike Conway (Dale Coyne) winning for the "little guys". Anyway, my point there is that I think almost all (maybe not all) the corporate teams will do anything to win and have no moral values. I think all these teams cheat regularly, even if they don't need to. And although people seem to like people like Joe Gibbs, Richard Childress, and Robert Yates as people I always viewed them as ALMOST as corporate as Hendrick, Roush, or Penske. While I'd certainly rate Earnhardt over Gordon, I don't know if I buy DSFF's argument that RCR was always on the straight and narrow. Given what we have seen from the team since Earnhardt's death (look at how many times Todd Berrier cheated!) can we be so sure that RCR wasn't cheating? After all from 1986-1994 they were the preferred Chevy team just as Junior Johnson was before and Hendrick was afterwards, and we KNOW both of those teams never met a cheat they didn't like. Did Childress, Shelmerdine, and Petree really not cheat, or were they just much smarter about it? I'll admit that they didn't seem to have the horsepower advantage Johnson and Hendrick had, but I don't buy Childress's integrity when he doesn't seem to have any now. And I don't buy Penske's integrity knowing about what he's done in other series. I give him props for not buying a spot in the 1995 Indy 500 field, which puts him on a higher level than Michael Andretti, who did that for Ryan Hunter-Reay in 2011 (poor, poor Bruno Junqueira), but he's a corporate owner and corporate owners will violate any rule to win. The MOST contemptuous of course are the corporate owners who aren't even skillful at being corporate owners and run completely incompetent teams! Guys like Harry Ranier, Felix Sabates, Cal Wells, Bobby Ginn, Ray Evernham, and YES, Michael Waltrip... One reason I almost want Kurt Busch to win the chase (ESPECIALLY IF HE GOES WINLESS - that would be hilarious) is to stick it to the corporate teams. I don't particularly like Kurt, but I don't particularly like anyone else in the chase either. 1352. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I agree with pretty much everything Sean just said about the Chase. Playoffs create artificial excitement by inducing the luck factor. If we're looking to crown the best possible driver and team champion, playoffs are not the way to go. Also, little-known fact: The PGA's FedEx Cup was based loosely on NASCAR's Chase. 1353. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Also, little-known fact: The PGA's FedEx Cup was based loosely on NASCAR's Chase." I almost mentioned that, and I think THAT one is even stupider than the Chase! 1354. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Did you guys hear Jeff's comments. He said how angry he is with "the manipulation" and ended the media session by saying "to be continued". I think Bowyer should be begging to be removed in favor of Gordon. Will "to be continued" be the new "I meant to rattle his cage"? To be continued. 1355. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (4) Is Jeff angry with NASCAR manipulating the first 2/3 of the race in favor of him? Doubt it. 1356. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One reason I almost want Kurt Busch to win the chase (ESPECIALLY IF HE GOES WINLESS - that would be hilarious) is to stick it to the corporate teams. I don't particularly like Kurt, but I don't particularly like anyone else in the chase either." To be fair, they're pretty much a 4th Childress team this season, but there would definitely be sentimental value if Furniture Row (not so much Kurt, but at least he has redeemed himself to some extent) wins the championship. 1357. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is Jeff angry with NASCAR manipulating the first 2/3 of the race in favor of him?" Okay, okay, we get your point... 1358. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The worst part about NASCAR replacing Logano with Gordon would be that I would have to shell out another $7 + shipping so I can have 1/64 scale replicas of all the chasers' main paint schemes. 1359. BON GORDON posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Oh whatever Sean. Lets be honest here. The finish was manipulated by MWR racing, Clint Bowyer, Brian Vickers, Joey Logano, and David Gilliland...PERIOD! Gordon got screwed...PERIOD! He got one competition caution that went in his favor. He had to actually pass cars and work his butt off to get eight. Dont sound like 2/3's of the race to me... 1360. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The worst part about NASCAR replacing Logano with Gordon would be that I would have to shell out another $7 + shipping so I can have 1/64 scale replicas of all the chasers' main paint schemes." Haha!! That's definitely the worst part. I have main paint schemes for Kenseth, Edwards, Biffle, Earnhardt, Kurt Busch (on pre-order), Kahne (not Lionel-made, though), and I have secondary and/or one-off schemes for Johnson, Logano, and Newman. 1361. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Oh whatever Sean. Lets be honest here. The finish was manipulated by MWR racing, Clint Bowyer, Brian Vickers, Joey Logano, and David Gilliland...PERIOD! Gordon got screwed...PERIOD! He got one competition caution that went in his favor. He had to actually pass cars and work his butt off to get eight. Dont sound like 2/3's of the race to me... Caution #1 - Logano gets trapped a lap down on a questionable caution. Gordon isn't all that far ahead of him but manages to stay on the lead lap, a major advantage. Had the debris caution been about 20 or 30 laps later, Gordon would have also been lapped and had as little chance to make it back as Logano did. Caution #3 - Gordon gets a lucky dog on a questionable caution. Caution #4 - Gordon gets a lucky dog on a legitimate caution, but they wait to throw the caution for quite some time (and I couldn't believe Johnson was back on the track - I totally thought he'd DNFed until I saw him crash afterward...) Yes, NASCAR was helping Gordon for the first two thirds of the race and if ANY of those cautions went differently, I bet Logano would have been in the top ten for sure. Gordon does a very good job at using the advantages he is given (much like Dario Franchitti) but he does get preferential treatment, as does Dario in IndyCar. This all makes me indifferent. Either you accept Gordon (who NASCAR manipulated to get in the chase) or Logano (who Penske manipulated to get in the chase in responsible to NASCAR's manipulation). Not sure which is really worse. Don't care whether it's Gordon or Logano. Would probably prefer Logano since I'd say he had the better season to date. Newman vs. Truex was much easier. Neither of them did anything wrong but MWR was manipulating the competition and SHR wasn't. If you want Gordon in the chase, kick Bowyer out. 1362. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Forgot to place the first paragraph (which was BON GORDON's) in quotes. Sorry. 1363. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "in responsible to NASCAR's manipulation" That was supposed to be in RESPONSE. Duh. 1364. murb posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "If you want Gordon in the chase, kick Bowyer out." Yes. 1365. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All right here are the pre-Chase, PRE-PENALTY standings using my system: 1. Jimmie Johnson - 1029 2. Kyle Busch - 1016 3. Matt Kenseth - 950 4. Carl Edwards - 915 5. Kevin Harvick - 886 6. Clint Bowyer - 850 7. Kasey Kahne - 841 8. Kurt Busch - 804 9. Joey Logano - 791 10. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 781 11. Jeff Gordon - 771 12. Martin Truex, Jr. - 766 (WC1) 13. Ryan Newman - 749 (WC2) 14. Greg Biffle - 713 15. Brad Keselowski - 701 16. Jamie McMurray - 602 17. Tony Stewart - 580 18. Juan Pablo Montoya - 574 19. Paul Menard - 569 20. Aric Almirola - 503 But, after penalties (which are equivalent to approximately 92 points in my system), the standings look like this: 1. Jimmie Johnson - 1029 2. Kyle Busch - 1016 3. Matt Kenseth - 950 4. Carl Edwards - 915 5. Kevin Harvick - 886 6. Kasey Kahne - 841 7. Kurt Busch - 804 8. Joey Logano - 791 9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 781 10. Jeff Gordon - 771 11. Clint Bowyer - 758 12. Ryan Newman - 749 (WC1) 13. Greg Biffle - 713 (WC2) 14. Brad Keselowski - 701 15. Martin Truex, Jr. - 674 16. Jamie McMurray - 602 17. Tony Stewart - 580 18. Juan Pablo Montoya - 574 19. Paul Menard - 569 20. Aric Almirola - 503 Bombshell!! Bowyer's penalty actually meant something!!! It knocks him out of the Chase, and Jeff Gordon moves in. Ka-boom. Anyway, here's the Chase seeding. I've decided to go with cjs's system of weighting wins and performance equally, except I use six points for each due to more points available in my system. 1. Jimmie Johnson - 2084 (2060+24) 2. Matt Kenseth - 2078 (2048+30) 3. Kyle Busch - 2078 (2054+24) 4. Carl Edwards - 2054 (2042+12) 5. Kevin Harvick - 2048 (2036+12) 6. Kasey Kahne - 2042 (2030+12) 7. Joey Logano - 2024 (2018+6) 8. Kurt Busch - 2024 9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr. - 2012 10. Jeff Gordon - 2006 1366. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Guh!! Forgot to add the two wild-cards, Newman and Biffle. They wouldn't have had any seed points anyway, but still... 1367. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Yes, NASCAR was helping Gordon for the first two thirds of the race and if ANY of those cautions went differently, I bet Logano would have been in the top ten for sure. Gordon does a very good job at using the advantages he is given (much like Dario Franchitti) but he does get preferential treatment, as does Dario in IndyCar." So, when Gordon gets screwed by Nascar's fake cautions while he's on pit road, like Dover last year,Charlotte and Kentucky this year, it's fine? But the one race where he benefits from questionable cautions, everybody screams "rigged!". Hypocrisy. 1368. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Review my post #324. I was pissed with how last year's Dover race (and even more last year's spring Martinsville race) went down. But I still think Gordon catches more breaks (last year's Pocono race, as well as Watkins Glen when they decided to not throw a caution for Bobby Labonte leaking oil which allowed Kyle Busch not to win and Gordon to make the chase). IT'S NOT HIS FAULT. This is just general superstar bias, which happens in most sports. But you do bring up a good point. There are SO MANY relatively little things that can help or screw someone over and it becomes nearly impossible to decide which of these things made the difference in the long run. Manipulation is NEVER OKAY. Manipulation towards the end of the season makes a bigger impact though. And to say that MWR and Penske were manipulating things and the #24 wasn't (because NASCAR was manipulating things FOR HIM in this race, even if not in others) is equally hypocritical. Really, one of my biggest reasons for opposing the Chase is that over a 36-race points system there will generally be fairly sizable gaps between most positions, which means the probability of one minor thing like that making a difference becomes much more insignificant. 1369. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'll admit I don't remember Gordon being screwed at Charlotte and Kentucky (intermediate tracks, yawn) but I'll take your word for it. No, that's not all right either, but what happened at Richmond (EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED - the #24's lucky dogs, MWR, Penske/FRM chicanery) makes a much bigger impact. Let's make another comparison here. Lots of Ford fans say Mark Martin was screwed in 1990 due to the carburetor spacer penalty at the spring Richmond race. Martin himself said that he had many, many races to make up for that and that he really lost the title at Phoenix, not Richmond. Even using the traditional points system, it's easy to argue that things that happened later in the season make a bigger impact since you're less likely to be able to come back from them. Same deal here. 1370. Bro Jackson posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon catches a lot more good breaks than bad, when NASCAR is able to make the call. 1371. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for the feedback, Sean. 1372. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Did anyone see the new Tundra that's going to be raced in 2014. I don't know how it drives, but it looks better than the one they use now (particularly that the grille area looks more like the street Tundra and the splitter has no braces and is a lot smoother). I'm optimistic that GM and Ford will introduce new Silverados and F-150s for next year as well. 1373. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) "Is Jeff angry with NASCAR manipulating the first 2/3 of the race in favor of him? Doubt it." I agree with this 100%. I'm just saying it will be quite interesting to see what Gordon does on track now. He showed last year at Phoenix that when he feels he has been wronged, rightfully or not (his anger last year at Clint was pure bullshit on his part), he will retaliate no matter how stupid it makes him look. Last year he tried to turn Clint into the wall after the fender run off Turn 2, failed miserably, put HIMSELF into the wall, so he pitted, sputtered around the track at lap times even Brian Vickers thinks are slow, got FAKED THE F*** OUT by Clint who faked high, got Gordon to bite, then dove low. Didn't matter, Jeff still turned him head on, collecting Joey and Aric as well. And while I hate the manipulation, I can't help but see the beautiful irony that Jeff missed the chase on two separate shady as hell situations, one by Clint and one by Joey. If only it had been Ford driver Aric Almirola taking the dive for extra Penske support instead of Gilliand, then it would have been perfect, perfect, PERFECT! "I was pissed with how last year's Dover race" I was too! Still am actually. They robbed us of Epic Johnson-Gordon Duel III: The Rubber Match. cjs disagrees, but the fact is NASCAR would have thrown a late caution to bunch up the 48 to the 24, and Chad would wave his "magic wand" over the 48, and it would have kicked ass to watch. But as I've said before, feel bad for us fans of this once great sport. Don't feel bad for Jeff or HMS. But watch Jeff cause it will be interesting. 1374. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "If only it had been Ford driver Aric Almirola taking the dive for extra Penske support instead of Gilliand, then it would have been perfect, perfect, PERFECT!" Yeah, well, Aric doesn't carry a grudge. :) 1375. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "Yeah, well, Aric doesn't carry a grudge. :)" Why would he? He was about six hundred miles behind the accident and could have avoided it had he not got so antsy and spun himself. Anybody else that feels like bitching about Phoenix still, please look up what happened at Bowman-Gray in 1966, please. 1376. MStall41 posted: 09.12.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Today, Dale Earnhardt Jr. echoed my earlier posted thoughts on how the Richmond fiasco will affect the sport. He went on record saying that he was fascinated by the whole ordeal and thinks all of the extra media attention will lead to more eyeballs watching the Chase. I fully agree with this. 1377. Matt G posted: 09.12.2013 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) If Nascar wanted Jeff Gordon in the Chase so badly, as many here seem to think, why wouldn't they have taken the opportunity they had on Monday to put him in? Nascar certainly screws with races, and I even believe they give a nice big "eff you" to certain guys when they upset like they did to Kurt Busch at Watkins Glen in 2006 when they waited to throw a caution until Kurt was about ten feet in front of the pit road entrance after a car had been in the old gravel trap for a while - Caution came out, Kurt pitted when pit road was closed because he had no choice, and he went to the back and later got caught in another wreck after having the winning car. But the vast majority of the time, I think Nasacar is just trying to create manufactured excitement. The field is spread out? Throw a debris caution. A car that can win the race is in the lucky dog spot? Drop the yellow! Even the lucky dog spot it self is just trying to manufacture excitement by putting people back on the lead lap who the leader worked hard to trap a lap down. And then there's the Chase, the biggest attempt to manufacture excitement of all (although I do believe it could be a good thing if they ran it better). I don't believe Nascar dropped that caution because they favor Jeff Gordon, I believe Nascar dropped that caution because dropping the caution at the moment tightened up the Chase battle even more. 1378. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I feel a "top 10 NASCAR shady rulings" list coming 1379. Scott B posted: 09.12.2013 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #1356/NLA "To be fair, they're pretty much a 4th Childress team this season, but there would definitely be sentimental value if Furniture Row (not so much Kurt, but at least he has redeemed himself to some extent) wins the championship." On that front, Childress and Furniture Row have formally announced they are renewing their satellite team agreement, which was undecided till now with Kurt leaving in 2014. That could be and indicator Jeff Burton is headed to the #78, in which case it will probably continue to be supported at a very high level by RCR. 1380. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.12.2013 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1338. NicoRosbergFan posted: Why the Chase isn't needed: 1979, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2002 Even if it didn't go all the way through the year, I'd say you left out 1994. But let me say this. How many of those season had close finishes due to Mechanical Attrition thoughout multiple races, Numerous Races that had Points-contenders in crashes, and had one or more of the championship contenders pennalized for one reason or another? Now, take those seasons, and remove them. This is what we are down to: 1979, 1980(Unsure about this one. I might need correcting), 1983, 1988, 1995, 1996, and maybe 1997. From 1973 to 2003 *30 years*, Only 7 championships become 'interesting' to watch points wise due to there actually being multiple drivers who could win for reasons other then crap-fest seasons. Let me take 1992, one of every NASCAR fan's favorite seasons, and look at what unfolded before the Hooters 500 that year. Davey Allison is sent to the hospital after Crashes in the All-Star Race AND his blowover at Pocono. Bill Elliot crashes in the first race, and struggles to find stable consistency long enough to 'run away' with the title. Alan Kulwicki, in an underfunded team, uses every non-grey-area trick in the book, crashes at Rockingham, and had how many other bad finishes? Mark Martin...don't exactly remember his 1992 season. Sorry. Same with Kyle Petty. But these two weren't exactly factors in the championship that year. Only by showing a bit less consistency then the top 3 do they mathematically have a shot at winning. Or 2002: Sterling Marlin crashes at Richmond, then nearly gets killed at Kansas. A Rookie Jimmie Johnson and Veteran Mark Martin have a freak accident in the last 'freak' race in Talladega history, 2002 caution-free. Stewart struggles all year, starting the year off wrong with a DNF early in the Daytona 500, and countless other things that ate at his points. Gordon struggles all year to try and defend his title. Never gets it going due to SO much random crap happening that year to him. Let me say this. The Chase isn't 'needed' to attract the Die-Hard fanbase of NASCAR. The Chase is only needed to attract the casual fans. NASCAR should never leave their Die-Hard fans, I fully agree. But experimenting can prove to either bring in or repel fans. They experimented in 1991 with pit stops, even if it was more for safety purposes then to attract people, but some every-day people raised their eyebrows and watched in interest. Same with the 2004 chase. Only difference is that is somewhat *stuck* and we have alot of fans that joined between 2004 and 2007/early 2008 because of it. The same can be said with making Daytona the first race of the year in 1982. The biggest event in the sport, at the start of the season!? ZOMG the casual idiot said. ... ... ... I hate to admit it, but I breifly forgot where I was going with this post. I'll be back a bit later with a clearer track of mind. I don't remeber if I was going to defend the chase because I think it is good, or defend it because it is needed to bring in 'casual' people. 1381. 83andJoe posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "Corporate owners"? I guess that's a thing now. Yep, those big, evil businesmen, gotta make sure we remind everybody just how big and evil they are, yep yep. 1382. 83andJoe posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) More seriously and in better news, Eric McClure has been cleared to return to competition this weekend at Chicago. Also, Maryeve Dufault will be running Go Green's Nationwide car this weekend, and Jeb Burton will be in the TSM #34 at Kentucky. 1383. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "1979, 1980(Unsure about this one. I might need correcting), 1983, 1988, 1995, 1996, and maybe 1997." Go ahead and scratch 1995-1997. Because without mechanical failures and bad luck, Gordon cruises to the title in all three. 1995: Gordon's drive-line breaks at Charlotte. At Rockingham he gets trapped on pit-road twice while the caution comes out, in a race where Nascar threw a caution(literally) for Dale to get a lap back. And at Atlanta Gordon led lap 61 to lock-up the title, and the Hendrick bunch didn't even try for the rest of the race. 1996: Gordon had 5 DNF's that were all out of his hands. And had another bad finish at the fall Charlotte race due to a failing engine. 1997: Gordon finishes last at Atlanta, with a blown engine, in a race that Jarrett won, and finished 35th after being crashed from the lead at Bristol, in a race that Jarrett also won. Losing a whopping 270 points to Jarrett in those two events. 1384. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "If Nascar wanted Jeff Gordon in the Chase so badly, as many here seem to think, why wouldn't they have taken the opportunity they had on Monday to put him in?" Shhhhhhh. Matt G. don't you know you aren't supposed to let facts get in the way of other people's fantasies? Now you just move right along now and be cynical like the rest of us. 1385. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Yep, those big, evil businesmen, gotta make sure we remind everybody just how big and evil they are, yep yep." I believe you have to step on plenty of people's toes to succeed in almost any endeavor in this day and age. This certainly includes government if you are trying to imply something about politics in general. I'm cynical about the vast majority of authority figures in general, and not just in the business world. The main thing I am suggesting with Gordon is "superstar bias", not just "pro-Jeff Gordon bias". Like when Dale Earnhardt, Jr. was allowed to pass the pace car to win the 2008 race at Michigan (and Dale Jarrett at Daytona in his championship season). Like when Tony Stewart was given the win over Regan Smith at Talladega in 2008. Like when Dale Earnhardt got a caution to get his lap back at Rockingham in 1995 (how many times does NASCAR choose to reverse a penalty like that?) NASCAR likes to help its superstars, and it's hardly the only sports sanctioning body that does this. I admit that Matt G's argument is also good. NASCAR likes to artificially increase the excitement within a race as well, but I think they also like benefiting superstars whenever possible. What most people call the "Hendrick bias", I call superstar bias. It's just that Hendrick happens to have most of the superstar drivers under his umbrella right now. 1386. Sean posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "to succeed in almost any endeavor" At least, to be one of the LEADING successes in a given field. I'm not talking about somebody who just has a stable middle-of-the-road cubicle job or something. But I imagine I'm going to be blasted for all this so I'm just going to stop now. 1387. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Go ahead and scratch 1995-1997. Because without mechanical failures and bad luck, Gordon cruises to the title in all three. So does he have bad luck EVERY SINGLE FALL for 20 years (with the exception of '98, his answer to Steve Young's 1994 playoff run, the only time in his career he didn't fade down the stretch and, like Jeff down the stretch in '98, was actually transcendent, breaking many of Montana's single season playoff records, but he couldn't do it year in and year out like Joe Cool, in fact he could only do it once, in this analogy Dale Earnhardt is Joe Montana with a single egg laid, '89 for Dale [Joe's best season] and '87 for Joe [Dale's best season]). Face it, Jeff has his annual "Fall in the Fall". Blame all you want, he fades down the stretch. 1388. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) 1995: 14 consecutive Top 8 finishes leading into Charlotte where he had a broken drive-line. Followed by Nascar trapping Gordon multiple laps back for throwing cautions twice!!!! while he was on pit-road, in a race where Nascar literally threw a caution for your boy to get a lap back!! 1996: He won 3 on the last 7 races!! he finished Top 5 in 8 of the last 10 races!! What the hell are you talking about? 1997: So what if his season came undone slightly in the last two races of the season? Triple Crown+Championship=who gives a shit if he "faded". Gordon vs Earnhardt is alive and well. 1389. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "So does he have bad luck EVERY SINGLE FALL for 20 years" Um, no, he didn't say that. he just said that those three years were bad luck, and he even provided instances of it. I'd say you could to point to several recent years as evidence that Gordon USUALLY fades down the stretch. 1390. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "1997: Gordon finishes last at Atlanta, with a blown engine, in a race that Jarrett won, and finished 35th after being crashed from the lead at Bristol, in a race that Jarrett also won. Losing a whopping 270 points to Jarrett in those two events." and what about the points Jarrett lost at Watkins Glen for being black flagged for leaking oil when it was actually a tire rub? or what about the points Mark lost at Daytona in July because Ward Burton drove like a idiot on the last lap causing a wreck Mark got caught up in? or, if you really want to talk about luck, what about the wreck that Jeff's blown tire caused at the fall Talladega race that Mark and Dale got caught up in? 1391. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *1996: Gordon had 10 Top 5 finishes in the last 12 races including 6 straight Top 2 finishes and 3 straight wins. 1392. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) Gordon's 1997: New track wins: California Road-course wins: Watkins Glen Short-track wins: Bristol and Martinsville Crown Jewel wins: Daytona 500, World 600 and Southern 500 Flat-track wins: Pocono and Loudon Tire grinder wins: Rockingham and Southern 500 I guess even though he had one of the most complete seasons in Nascar history, on top of actually winning the title, his season still sucked because he "faded". 1393. JimmyFennigFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) @1392 what your saying reveals whats wrong with the chase. you can have clearly the best season on the circuit, but if you fade down the stretch, you don't win the championship. also, not to speak for DSFF, but I think everybody is missing his point in 1387. I think what he is trying to say is, when someone has a long pattern of fading down the stretch every year, it can no longer be considered just a matter of luck. 1394. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Question: Why did Dale Earnhardt lose the 1989 championship? Was it because of his bad luck by having a crankshaft break 13 laps into Charlotte, the last lap spin after dominating Wilkesboro, and getting dumped by Rusty at Rockingham? Nope. It's because he didn't step up down the stretch like he needed to at Martinsville (where was LITERALLY gift wrapped the pole) and Phoenix (where Rusty tangled with a lapped car). Bad luck is part of racing. To be a champion, you have to weather those instances and pounce when you dodge the bullets. Dale didn't do that in '89. Same for Jeff. He lost the '96 title cause he was out driven by Terry at Rockingham and Phoenix (when Terry started in the back with a backup car and a BROKEN FREAKING WRIST). And '95 and '97 saw him lose over 200 points over the last 4 races. And what about Phoenix '97? Jeff cut a tire, had to pit, and finished 17th. Dale Jarrett also cut and tire and pitted, but he unlapped himself and drove back to the lead to win WITHOUT A CAUTION! At some point it becomes a trend. We are well past that point for Jeff. 1395. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Change of subject: Is anybody watching the Patriots and Jets game tonight? 1396. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I've never asked you this, DSFF, but just what do you consider "down the stretch"? Is it the last 3 races, 5 races, 10 races, or somewhere in between? I say that because if it's the last 10 races (the length of the Chase), Gordon actually has a pretty good record, but if you're talking about the last 3-5 race, his record is rather pitiful compared to his overall record. And about what you said about Earnhardt in 1989, it was a combination of terrible luck (Charlotte), and getting run into. You mention Wallace's getting wrecked by a lapped car (Stan Barrett) at Phoenix in 1989. If that doesn't happen, Rusty either clinches the championship outright or gets a big enough lead entering the finale that he would only have to start the race. So that incident was the only reason Earnhardt (and Mark Martin, who had actually moved ahead of Earnhardt for second place) even had a chance at the title in the finale that year. But let's not forget how Jimmie Johnson, arguably the greatest finisher in the history of the sport, collapsed at the end of the season last year with title #6 virtually in his hands. So it happens to the best of them. Remember that the only team ever to lose a post-season series in MLB history after getting out to a 3-0 lead is the team with the greatest winning tradition of them all, the New York Yankees (against their archrivals, the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS). So even the greatest have collapses like that, though I never really considered that a choke. 1397. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FF, I will after watching the '57 World Series film (seriously). What's happening? Are they having the same weather trouble that we had in Baltimore earlier today? (Lightning even caused BWI Airport to shut down earlier today when it struck the control tower, it got that bad.) 1398. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What's happening? Are they having the same weather trouble that we had in Baltimore earlier today?" Weather's perfect, and they are about 10 minutes away from the start. Should be fun. Your watching the 1957 World Series? I'm watching the 1997 DieHard 500 "Big one" since someone on here brought it up. And to the person that asked about it: Gordon lost another 43 points to Jarrett in this race. 1399. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cjs3872, I just noticed that there's a chance for a thunderstorm, but the weather at the moment is great. And I meant it was about 10 minutes away from the pre game show. Tom Brady is going for his 50th consecutive game with a Touchdown pass. 1400. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *cjs3872, I accidently spelled your name with a upper case C. 1401. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't worry about whether you start a sentence with my user name and begin it with an upper case letter. I do it with others that have a lower case first letter, and you're not the only one that used a upper case "c". And Brady just got consecutive game #50 with a TD pass. four more will tie Drew Brees' record of 54. And remember just how long John Unitas held the record with a 47-game streak of throwing at last one TD pass in each game. That was considered for many years to be the NFL's version of Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak, but it was eclipsed twice last year. 1402. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And remember just how long John Unitas held the record with a 47-game streak of throwing at last one TD pass in each game. That was considered for many years to be the NFL's version of Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak, but it was eclipsed twice last year." Twice? That kinda dilutes the record a little, right? Joltin Joe's record can't be broken much like Bobby Allison's 39 consecutive races led streak will never be broken. I got an incredible streak you might not have heard of: Lee Petty once finished 11th or better in 54 consecutive starts! That couldn't possibly be broken. 1403. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, Have you noticed that, the most reclusive NFL player ever, Barry Sanders is doing Pepsi commercials now? He's even on the cover of this year's Madden video game. You think he might be low on money? 1404. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FF, how can the fact that both Brees and Brady eclipsed Unitas' old record last year dilute it in any way, especially considering he had held that record for over 50 years. It was 52 years between the game where Unitas stretched his streak to 47 and the game in which it was broken last year. The fact that Unitas set that record in the era he set it in may have been even more remarkable than the record itself. He set it in a day when it was a running game and when the rules was far more liberal in terms of what could be done to a receiver. And you're right, nobody will ever even approach the records you spoke of, although Lee Petty's record was set in an era where finishing 11th was often a terrible finish, because fewer than 20 cars started quite a number of races back then. In fact there were races that as few as 12-15 cars started, so finishing 11th was no accomplishment at all. 1405. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It was 52 years between the game where Unitas stretched his streak to 47 and the game in which it was broken last year. The fact that Unitas set that record in the era he set it in may have been even more remarkable than the record itself." I was talking about the 54 straight and Brady's current run of 50 being diluted, not Johnny u's. Just like Babe Ruth's 714 will always be the high water mark for career home-run totals, depite it being only the third highest ever. That's all I meant. 1406. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Is it just me or does Tom Brady seem to get progressively worse with age. 1407. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Is it just me or does Tom Brady seem to get progressively worse with age." Football players age terribly compared to say: Baseball Players or Racing drivers. Brady's still one of the five best QB's, I think. 1408. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Tom Brady should be on the Mount Rushmore of overrated Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. 1409. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tom Brady should be on the Mount Rushmore of overrated Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL." When I said: "he's one of the five best QB's, I think" I meant active wise, not all-time. 1410. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Give me a break. To me, Brady's the fourth-best QB of all-time behind only John Unitas, John Elway, and the best of them all, Joe Montana. And except for a couple of seasons, he's usually done it with no-name receiving corps, or guys from the scrapheap, and he's battling that again. Can anyone name anyone that Brady's throwing to tonight without watching the game or checking other websites? Brady's got three Super Bowl titles and it would be five if no for the fact that his defense couldn't stop Eli Manning when it counted, because he did his job. Among this generation's QB's Brady's the best, and it's not that close. Peyton Manning's at, or near the bottom the bottom of the top ten all-time and even his brother has won more big games than he has, not to mention more Super Bowls. 1411. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Give me a break. To me, Brady's the fourth-best QB of all-time behind only John Unitas, John Elway, and the best of them all, Joe Montana." I don't know jack about Football. I've always had an interest though, especially when it comes to Running Backs. My all-time favorite football player is Jim Brown. 1412. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tom Brady is probably my least favorite active NFL player, but he is certainly not overrated. 1413. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Give me a break." This is /cjs/?!?! 1414. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) JG24FF, that's not a bad guy to have as your favorite player, especially if you're a fan of running backs. That's one position where any argument over who's the best ever is pure lunacy. As has been said many times, there's a "no vacancy" sign on the "Jim Brown Motel" when it comes to the best RB ever, because there's one undisputed king of the running backs, and he wore #32 in Cleveland from 1957-'65. 1415. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I've never asked you this, DSFF, but just what do you consider "down the stretch"?" From mid to late September onwards. When the weather cools down and the pressure to win the title heats up big. "And Brady just got consecutive game #50 with a TD pass. four more will tie Drew Brees' record of 54." And the combined number of Super Bowl rings they have that were won in seasons that didn't later result in huge penalties: 0. Tom's 3 rings came before SpyGate, and Drew's title came during what would become BountyGate. "JG24FF, how can the fact that both Brees and Brady eclipsed Unitas' old record last year dilute it in any way, especially considering he had held that record for over 50 years." Because the game has changed drastically over the past few years. WAY more emphasis is placed on a high powered and high tempo passing attack nowadays. With the athleticism and speed of modern defensive fronts (mostly chemically enhanced) and rules that make it nearly impossible for the secondary to play defense or for any defensive player to really lay the wood to a QB, the running attack takes a backseat to passing. Their records are VERY diluted. "Tom Brady should be on the Mount Rushmore of overrated Quarterbacks in the history of the NFL." I agree. He won 3 Super Bowls under what we would later learn to be SpyGate and looked to be the second coming of Joe Montana. As it turns out, it is a lot easier to stay Cool (pun intended) like Joe when your team is video taping the other team and you know what defense they are gonna run. And since 2007, he has become just like Peyton Manning. Huge statistical numbers, huge playoff disappointments. He has lost two Super Bowls by being outplayed when it counted by Eli Manning, has lost to Joe Flacco twice at home, and lost at home to none other than Mark "ButtFumble" Sanchez. To me, the most overrated QB ever is Brett Favre. I admire his toughness and longevity, but he was simply awful in the playoffs. He won one Super Bowl with one of the most stacked teams ever, then lost the Super Bowl the next year while heavily favored to John Elway. And he owns perhaps the Top 3 "What The Hell Were You Thinking" playoff throws EVER for a QB in position to win. The 2003 game in Philly when they were on a potential game winning drive, the throw in overtime against the Giants in 2007 in The IceBowl II when he was throwing to.... I have no idea. And in 2009, they had a game winning FG attempt in the bag until he decided to.... I have no idea. He had the 5 INT game against the Rams. Early in his career he lost to the Cowboys Juggernaut in Dallas 3 years in a row. Dallas was a much better team than those Packers teams, but Brett never made it close and never played well, resulting in 3 blowouts. Seems like at least once, you can make the Juggernaut sweat a bit, like the Bengals in '88. Second to me is Peyton Manning. Sorry, but to have EIGHT one and dones in the playoffs, five at home is inexcusable. To be so good during the regular season, and to fall off so bad in the playoffs taints everything. And I know in 2000 and 2005, they had missed FGs that sunk them, but they never should have been in that position if they had a QB that the media makes him out to be. Hell, they were only in that position in 2005 because of Jerome Bettis' goal line fumble and Big Ben's miracle tackle. Speaking of that tackle, compare his effort in running the defender down to be in position to trip the guy up to Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl against the BountyGate Saints after he threw the game clinching pick six. He just barely trotted towards the guy with no effort and no pride. It was so bad, a Saints player BLATENTLY blocked him in the back just for the hell of it right in front of an official, and no flag was thrown. Nor should it have been. And what about his Brett Favre Memorial Across The Body INT against Baltimore last year in OT? I'll put Brady third. Since his team has quit being able to cheat, he is Peyton Manning with a Justin Beiber hairdo. And not only did he get those 3 Super Bowl rings under SpyGate, what about his Gordon-in-the-90s luck in those 3 playoff runs? The Tuck Rule, Bledsoe bailing him out in Pittsburgh, getting to play playoff lightweight Peyton Manning twice in the cold, John Kasey kicking the ball out of bounds (AAAARRRRGGGHHH!!), Big Ben finally playing like a rookie in '04, and that dysfunctional Eagles team. Something about those Northern California guys. They get all the luck and all their championships early, then run out of the exceptional luck and quit winning titles. Fourth? Dan Marino. Yep, Mr Statistics. Only made one Super Bowl against the Niners, and while they were definitely the better team, Joe Cool was clearly the superior QB in that one. Dan spent an entire career airing it out in an era when defensive backs could defend, and defensive linemen could get worn down by a decent running game. Not smart. When Jimmy Johnson, the guy who built the Cowboys juggernaut that won 3 Super Bowls, coaching them to two of them before he got tired of Jerry Jones' shit, came to Miami, he was so frustrated with Dan he publicly threatened to bench him in favor of a QB who could win playoff games. Instead of adapting to Jimmy like Troy Aikman did (Jimmy was initially very unimpressed with Troy) which led him to collect 3 rings and, 20 years later, is still raking in the cash and banging the hottest women as the greatest QB in Cowboys history, Dan stayed the same. And the ring count on his hands remained the same. 1416. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, The one thing that I do know about Joe Montana, was that he was 4-0 in Super Bowl appearances, and never threw and interception in those games. That's something that DSFF would use to make a point about him being the best QB ever. I also like Jim Brown's 104.5 rushing yards per game, and his 8 rushing title's in only 9 season's. 1417. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Give me a break. To me, Brady's the fourth-best QB of all-time" You know, I always wondered how you have a list of the best drivers in NASCAR history and only have David Pearson SEVENTH. Now I understand. You are just bad at ranking! It all makes sense now. "Brady's got three Super Bowl titles and it would be five if no for the fact that his defense couldn't stop Eli Manning when it counted, because he did his job." No, he won 3 Super Bowls because he knew what defensive play was coming due to illegal videotaping, and superior luck. And his defense may not have been able to stop Eli, but in those two Super Bowls, The Pats only scored 14 and 17 points. In this offensive geared era, that is not very good, and it puts undue pressure on your defense. "when it comes to the best RB ever, because there's one undisputed king of the running backs, and he wore #32 in Cleveland from 1957-'65." Uh-oh, we agree on something. Judging by the way you rank things, this might not be a good thing. 1418. Eric posted: 09.12.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs3872, There is a difference between when Johnny Unitas did his touchdown streak to Drew Brees and Tom Brady touchdown streak. I think Tom Brady and Drew Brees are future Pro Football Hall of fame quarterback though. When Johnny Unitas had his streak the passing game wasn't as advance, their has been rule changes since Unitas time, and teams are passing more than in Johnny Unitas's time. There some great passing offenses in the 1960's, but the amount of passing yards really has went up per game. When Dan Marino had his 1984 season, the league wasn't pass friendly as it is know either. A great example is in the NFL in 1969 the average amount of passing year per is less than 180 per grame compare to over 230 passing yards per game in 2012 for each NFL team. Another key stat is for week one this season, the league average for rushing yards per game for each team in 93 yards and that is low. 1419. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My amateur Top 5 greatest running backs list: 1. Jim Brown 2. Walter Payton 3. Barry Sanders 4. Earl Cambell 5. Terrell Davis (Forgive me for being biased toward TD. I love the guy!) 1420. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24Fan, I'd rank Jim Brown as the best ever. But not necessarily by a mile. And no, I'm not giving him a "you beat the shit out of women a lot" discount. Walter Payton put up some huge numbers on some REALLY bad Bears teams. One of the great justices ever is that, in the twilight of his career, he got to be a part of a Super Bowl winning team. He wasn't a huge factor in that game, but he got his ring. I put that slightly ahead of John Elway finally getting his Super Bowl ring as most well deserved Super Bowl ring. Barry Sanders has to be mentioned too. He damn near broke Walter's record in many less seasons. His moves, to this day, are simply impossible. And he played on a lot of really lousy teams. He never had a QB worth a shit. Everybody knew Barry was getting the ball. And he still ran wild. And yes, unfortunately, we have to mention The Juice, OJ Simpson. Still the only RB to get 2000 rushing yards in 14 games. Why that isn't mentioned when players chase Eric Dickerson's "record" I don't understand. Well, actually, I do understand. After 1994, it is in everyone's best interest to forget about him. He also played on lousy teams. In the freezing cold of Buffalo. And here is somebody we need to start talking about already for best RBs: Adrian Peterson. Why so soon? Because, as mentioned earlier, you are not supposed to be able to do what All Day is doing right now. With Defensive Linemen and Linebackers bigger, stronger, and more juiced up than ever, and no new rules to enhance the running game like they have for the passing game, you should not be able to do what he does. Oh, and did I mention he has a bum ACL? This is the era of running back by committee, needing at least 2, preferably 3 RBs to have a DECENT running attack to loosen up the mammoth defensive fronts the least little bit. In this era, if you know they are gonna run it like you do with The Vikings, you should be dead meat. But Adrian damn near broke the record last year, and carried Minnesota to a playoff appearance. 1421. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is possibly the worst list of any kind that i've ever seen. Bleacher Report's Top 10 greatest running backs: -1. Walter Payton -2. Emmitt Smith (why?!?) -3. Marcus Allen -4. Curtis Martin -5. Thurman Thomas -6. Tony Dorsett -7. Jim Brown (Seventh?!!?) -8. Barry Sanders -9. Franco Harris 10. O.J Simpson 1422. Eric posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Tom Brady isn't overrated. I think his one of the best Quarterbacks of his era. I think at the time most people wouldn't argue that Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees are Future Hall of Fame Quarterbacks. I don't entirely put super wins as where to rank a quarterback because Super Bowl is depends of the entire team when it comes to offense, defense and yes, special teams. The fact is Trent Dilfer won a super Bowls because of a great defense. Peyton Manning and Dan Marino was hurt by medicore to poor defense when Peyton was with the Colts and Dan with the Dolphins. 1423. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I've heard a lot of great things about Adrian Peterson, but i've yet to see him play. I'm a casual fan, really more into the history of the game than the current players. And yes, Adrian Peterson is a great runner in a non-running era of NFL. I will have to look into his play and watch some footage for myself. 1424. Eric posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Barry Sanders did play on a team that a great Quarterback season. Scott Mitchell had a career year in 1995 with him having 32 touchdown passes and over 4,300 yards. Back in the 1990's, a Quarterback having over 30 touchdown passes with over 4,300 yards was considered an outstanding season by a quarterback. 1425. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You know, I always wondered how you have a list of the best drivers in NASCAR history and only have David Pearson SEVENTH. Now I understand. You are just bad at ranking! It all makes sense now." I was reading through the comments for a race from 2011 some time, and one of the discussions was about all-time best paint schemes, and cjs called YOUR list illegitimate, because you were missing one scheme. Guess which one it was? None other than David Pearson's #21 Purolator Mercury. 1426. 83andJoe posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) #1385: Just pointing out what seems to me, along with the complaints about "rich daddy drivers", a disturbing anti-success bias, not limited to here but in society as a whole, but that's a can of worms probably best not fished from further. 1427. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "4. Earl Cambell" He is #1 on "Most Fun To Watch" RB lists. Ahead of Barry! Not only did he run over defensive players in his way, he LOOKED for defensive players to steamroll. Of course he is paying for it now. Badly. But his Snow Plowing of defenders barely edges out Barry Sanders' "you can't POSSIBLY do that" moves for #1 on fun to watch lists. Also, kudos to everyone here for not mentioning the guy with the all time rushing yards record. Talk about overrated! And an attention whore. Him breaking Walter's hallowed rushing record was almost as bad as Bonds surpassing Hammering Hank (luckily everyone has agreed to ignore that one ever happened). I admire his toughness and the way he coaxed a lot out of a limited athletic skill set. But the O Line he got to run behind and the passing attack his opponents had to respect for so long (no stacking the box while Aikman And Irvin were in their prime) inflated his stats big time. But I do like the way he played so well in Philly so often, infuriating their fans. Man I hate Eagles fans. 1428. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "-7. Jim Brown (Seventh?!!?)" Good Lord, cjs is the one doing the rankings for The Bleacher Report. I should have known. I feel like Charlton Heston in Planet of The Apes when he realizes he has been on a post nuclear holocaust Earth the whole time. YOU MANIACS! DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL! 1429. Eric posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, It isn't a shock that Emmitt Smith got 2nd in that top 10 list. He's a running that some people actually think is better than Barry Sanders although I think Emmitt is overrated. I think Emmitt is a great player, but he was overrated in his era depending on who you talk to. My theory is if Barry Sanders had Emmitt's line, I think Barry could get over 2,200 rushing yards in one season and would break Payton's Rushing yards in a career in less seasons than Emmitt. I am saying that as a Green Packer Fan that hack to deal with Barry Sanders. 1430. Eric posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to say as a Green Bay Packer fan. 1431. David posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Good Lord, cjs is the one doing the rankings for The Bleacher Report." Not for NASCAR, because not even cjs is that bad at ranking. 1432. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If ever there was a game where neither team deserved to win it would be this one. 1433. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Both The Patriots and Jets are playing like crap. 1434. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm sure Tom Brady is missing Wes Welker now. 1435. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "None other than David Pearson's #21 Purolator Mercury." Wow. Talk about a MASSIVE oversight on my part. "-2. Emmitt Smith (why?!?)" Ugh, the name of the beast has been released. He has the all time rushing record (for reasons mentioned earlier) and he played most of his career for the Dallas Cowboys. And because cjs is the one doing the ranking. "-3. Marcus Allen" He was good. But not THAT good. Does have the most fun to watch run in Super Bowl history though. "-4. Curtis Martin" He is the #1 most UNDERRATED RB ever. But not 4th best. "-5. Thurman Thomas" He couldn't hold on to the ball in a Super Bowl if you covered him in Super Glue. "-6. Tony Dorsett" The person ranking is obviously a huge Dallas Cowboys fan. "-8. Barry Sanders" Are you freaking kidding me? "10. O.J Simpson" Again, I understand why people would be slow to compliment OJ. It is tough for me to admit he is one of the best ever. But if you are gonna throw The Juice all the way down to 10th, just leave him out completely! If you must mention this horrible human being, mention him properly in context. 1436. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If ever there was a game where neither team deserved to win it would be this one." Kinda like that Super Bowl in the New Orleans Super Dome when the Cowboys played the Broncos. John Fascenda put it best in the highlight film with his famous "Voice Of God": From the opening kickoff, this was a coach's nightmare. 1437. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm sure Tom Brady is missing Wes Welker now." I think Brady's wife ran Welker off to Denver. 1438. cjs3872 posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, the point you make in post #1417 is the exact same one I made in post #1404, because Unitas set that record at a time where the game was predominantly running the ball and defense, and I also mentioned that the rules were far more liberal on what defenses could do to receivers. And DSFF, I disagree that Brady won his three Super Bowls because of what was done with the recording of the opposition, because the defense dominated much of the first one and the second one was Jekyll-and-Hyde for both teams. You might have a case in the third on because of the screen pass strategy that was used to combat the Eagles' pass rush. But Brady did do enough in the two his team lost. His team was in the lead late in the fourth quarter, but his defense couldn't stop Eli Manning on both occasions, including when a perfect season was on the line. And also remember that the Giants coaches figured out Brady's signals in SB XLII, which was why he did very little. They knew what the were going to do before the play began, which gave the Giants a big advantage. However, it must also be said that the Patriots have not won a Super Bowl since letting Adam Vinatieri go following the 2005 season. 1439. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brady's wife did throw Wes under the bus after The Pats second loss to the G-Men. Even though the pass was well behind him. 1440. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It should also be noted, cjs, that The Pats also haven't won a Super Bowl since they got busted for recording defensive signals. Coincidence? Nope. And again, Eli should never have been in position for those drives had Tom led his team to 32 points like he did in Super Bowl 38 (AARRGGHH!!). In today's NFL, only scoring 14 and 17 points against good teams puts a lot of pressure on your defense. 1441. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The best thing to say about that game is that it's over. 1442. JG24FanForever posted: 09.12.2013 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The best thing to say about that game is that it's over." Once it began raining, it became a total punt-fest. 1443. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Top 10 NFL Quarterbacks of All Time: 1. Joe Montana 2. John Elway 3. Johnny Unitas 4. Tom Brady (call him a cheater all you want, but 3 Super Bowl titles is impressive no matter what) 5. Terry Bradshaw 6. Troy Aikman 7. Steve Young 8. Dan Marino 9. Otto Graham 10. Roger Staubach 1444. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Despite their victories The Patriots are looking extremely vulnerable right now in this season. 1445. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Otto Graham 9th? No Bart Starr? 1446. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) NFL's official Top 10 greatest QB's list from NFL.com: -1. Joe Montana -2. Johnny Unitas -3. Peyton Manning -4. Sammy Baugh -5. Otto Graham -6. Brett Favre -7. Tom Brady -8. John Elway -9. Dan Marino 10. Sid Luckman A lot of love for Peyton from the NFL. No surprise That Joe cool is first. 1447. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I only watched the end of it. But that is as happy as I've seen Belichick since their Super Bowl days. Usually even after wins he looks like he just ate a piece of shit. We know he is a defensive coach. Could the reason he has been such a dick the past few years is that he hates offense? And he has been the coach of a high powered offensive team. After this ugly game he smiled and pumped his fist. I guess this is football the way he likes it. My goodness, Bill Belichick truly is Satan on Earth. 1448. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, let's also not forget that the Patriots would have won Super Bowl XXXVIII easily if not for a terrible pass Brady threw when they appeared to be extending their lead in the fourth quarter. And also, the Patriots defense had some major breakdowns in that fourth quarter that allowed the Panthers to briefly go ahead. The reason I called that a Jekyll-and-Hyde game is that they almost went the entire first half without either team scoring, and the third quarter went the same way, but when the offenses got going, they couldn't be stopped, which resulted in the highest scoring quarter in Super Bowl history (37 points between the two teams in the fourth quarter). And as I noted, one reason the Giants were able to stop the Patriots in Super Bowl XLII was because they had deciphered Brady's signals, so they knew what the Patriots were going to do an virtually every play from the second quarter on in that game, which gave their defense a huge advantage. A sluggish Giant offense was the only thing that even kept that game close, and in the game-winning drive in each game, the Giants had a miracle catch that kept the drive going, or Brady would have five Super Bowl wins. And The Long Shot, you and I have the exact same top four QBs, though second and third are reversed. You have Elway second and Unitas third, and I have Unitas second and Elway third, but we both have Montana at the top and Brady fourth. However, I have Roger Staubach fifth on my list, with Bart Starr, the only QB ever to win five championships, next. I don't have either Aikman, Marino or Young in my top ten. I round out my top ten with Bradshaw, Fran Tarkenton, Graham, and Peyton Manning. 1449. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the Top 2. It really goes off the rails from there. 1450. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I like the Top 2. It really goes off the rails from there." I'm not particularly fond of seeing Brett Favre ranked ahead of John Elway by the NFL. 1451. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Peyton Manning third? Come on. As DSFF noted, he's been "one and done" in the post-season eight times, five of which were at home, and another one coming in San Diego when his team was four games better than the Chargers (that was the year when his Colts finished second in their division with a 12-4 record, while the Chargers won their division with a 8-8 record). That's not a sign of a great QB to me. And Brett Favre sixth, and ahead of both QBs that have led their teams to five Super Bowls, not to mention not even having the only QB ever to win five championships even in the top ten? I don't know who made that list for the NFL, but they need to be drug tested. 1452. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Here's my ranking of the top 10 QBs of all-time: 1. Joe Montana 2. John Unitas 3. John Elway 4. Tom Brady 5. Roger Staubach 6. Bart Starr 7. Terry Bradshaw 8. Fran Tarkenton 9. Otto Graham 10. Peyton Manning 1453. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Joe Cool Johnny U Otto Graham Jonh Elway Bart Starr Sid Luckman Troy Aikman Jim Plunkett Fran Tarkenton Jim Kelly 1454. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My Top 5 greatest QB's of all-time: 1. Joe Idaho 2. Jim Smelly 3. Brian Vickers 4. Clint Eastwood 5. Vincent Price I told you guys I don't know a damn thing about football:) 1455. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) cjs, I agree with your list for the most part, but I seriously question putting Fran Tarkenton in the top 10 and not having Troy Aikman up there. Aikman was arguably the best playoff QB in the game not named Montana or Bradshaw, whereas Tarkenton led the Vikings to 3 Super Bowls, but lost them all. DSFF, bump Steve Young out of the top 10, put everyone else up a notch except for Staubach, and then add Starr at #9. I had forgotten about him...stupid. 1456. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:49 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Oh lord everyone is talking about football again. I wish I could debate with you fellas. I'll be back tomorrow when this blows over. 1457. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oh lord everyone is talking about football again. I wish I could debate with you fellas. I'll be back tomorrow when this blows over." It's funny, because there's both a Baseball and Football reference. I'm surprised the webmaster hasn't told us to eff off to the appropriate sites. 1458. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:55 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Aren't Tim Tebow and Mark Sanchez two of the best QBs out there today?? ;) 1459. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:07 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) JG24Fan, having Clint Eastwood in the Top ANYTHING list is not a bad thing. 1460. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JG24Fan, having Clint Eastwood in the Top ANYTHING list is not a bad thing." Unforgiven and Pale Rider are my all-time favorite movies. Clint Eastwood and Christopher Walken (Don't mention cow bell, please! I hate it!) are my favorite actors by light years. 1461. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:11 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) What the hell, my Top 5 favorite actors: 1) Clint Eastwood 2) Bruce Willis 3) Charlton Heston 4) Sean Connery 5) Robert Duvall 1462. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 5 favorite movies: 1. Unforgiven 2. Pale Rider 3. King of New York (Walken flick) 4. Sling Blade 5. The Road Warrior (Mad Max II) Top 5 favorite actors: 1. Clint Eastwood 2. Christopher Walken 3. Daniel Day Lewis 4. Jack Nicholson 5. Billy Bob Thorton 1463. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:23 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Christopher Walken and Jack Nicholson would be in my Top 10. Along with Bruce Lee, Woody Harrelson, and Sam Jackson (Yes they deserved to die and I hope they burn in Hell!!). 1464. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:27 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Favorite movies for me: 1) The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly 2) Die Hard 3) Pulp Fiction 4) Dirty Harry 5) Planet of the Apes 1465. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Favorite actors 6th-10th: -6. Lee Van Cleef (The Man in Black and Angel Eyes) -7. Samuel L. Jackson -8. Leonardo Dicaprio (Forgive me, but he is great.) -9. Robert Deniro 10. Gary Oldman Favorite movies 6-10th: -6. For a Few Dollars More -7. There Will be Blood -8. Gangs of New York -9. 2001: a Space Odyssey 10. The Good The Bad The Ugly 1466. Daniel posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:35 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) the infinity number of tall man fingers is the real sign to be used for 15's driver now known as pinnochio that cannot get some guts and confess up. 1467. Eric posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, Pro-football reference doesn't have editorial content anymore since November of 2011. Pro-football Reference at that time announced that you can't do editorial blogs on their site anymore. 1468. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Favorite movies 11th-20th: 11. Pulp fiction 12. Full Metal Jacket 13. Platoon 14. The Departed 15. Suicide Kings 16. The Shining 17. High Plains Drifter 18. Jurassic Park 19. Fight Club 20. Days of Thunder ("The boy don't have the balls to pass me on the outside" -Rowdy Burns-) 1469. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Pro-football reference doesn't have editorial content anymore since November of 2011. Pro-football Reference at that time announced that you can't do editorial blogs on their site anymore." Why not? was it getting too crowded? 1470. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, you being a big fan of Bruce Willis, have you ever seen Twelve Monkeys or Unbreakable? IMO, those are his greatest movies. Not counting Pulp Fiction, of course. 1471. Eric posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever, I don't think crowd was too much of an issue. It was caused by Pro-football reference going a different direction. Pro-football reference claimed in November 2011 that they are a small company and they decided on focusing jumping out as much statistical football data as possible with them cutting back in other areas. 1472. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I really like both of those movies. 1473. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:26 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) I honestly never understood or cared for Pulp Fiction...yea I know I'm gonna get ripped apart for that. Top five favorite movies: #1. Jaws #2. Airplane #3. Tropic Thunder #4. Aliens #5. Gran Torino Top five favorite actors: #1. Tom Hanks #2. Robert Downey Jr. #3. Roy Scheider #4. Jack Nicholson #5. Harrison Ford 1474. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I honestly never understood or cared for Pulp Fiction...yea I know I'm gonna get ripped apart for that." That's okay. You don't have to like or understand everything. I looooove Gran Torino! Did you know the white boy he calls a pussy in the movie, is his son in real life? 1475. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I looooove Gran Torino! Did you know the white boy he calls a pussy in the movie, is his son in real life?" I meant Eastwood BTW. When he's confronting the dudes that are ganging up the main female character and the White kid. 1476. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:51 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) No I was not aware that was Eastwood's son. I'll rank more stuff while I'm up. Top five favorite musicians/bands: #1. Bon Jovi #2. Meatloaf #3. Goo Goo Dolls #4. Journey #5. Billy Joel Top ten favorite songs: #1. It's My Life Bon Jovi (2000) #2. I'd Do Anything for Love...Meatloaf (1993) #3. Seperate Ways (Worlds Apart) Journey (1983) #4. River of Dreams Billy Joel (1993) #5. Oh Sherrie Steve Perry (1983) #6. St.Elmo's Fire John Parr (1985) #7. Name Goo Goo Dolls (1995) #8. The Best Tina Turner (1989) #9. Rhythm of My Heart Rod Stewart (1991) #10. Sugar We're Going Down Fall Out Boy (2005) 1477. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:07 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Top 5 favorite movies: 1. Unforgiven" Although it's not my favorite by any stretch, I'm glad someone enjoys and appreciate how good Unforgiven. I don't know how old you are, but that movie came out the year I was born and nobody I know even knows it exists. If I did a Top 30 (since it's WAY too hard for me to narrow down to even that few, to be honest) favorite movies list...All opinions are my own. 1. Saving Private Ryan-this movie just really captures the spirit something I love very dearly--America. 2. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King-truly a great movie of epic proportions. Probably the closest you can come to actually reading a book on screen. 3. The Godfather Part II-one of the rare instances where a sequel masters what was already a masterpiece. Very complex plot that makes you have to think, which I like. 4. The Silence of the Lambs-the best horror/psychological thriller of all time. Not just scares and gore, but actually an extremely intriguing plot. 5. GoodFellas-this move is a lot of fun. It's a true gangster story. 6. The Empire Strikes Back-the best of the great sci-fi series. 7. The Dark Knight Rises-the plot may be full of holes, but I thought it was a fitting and perfect end to the greatest superhero movies ever made. 8. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers-better than Fellowship, but not quite the same level as Return. 9. The Dark Knight-actually probably better than it's sequel. 10. Schindler's List-inspiring movie about courage in the face of perhaps the greatest evil in the world...the holocaust. 11. Gone with the Wind-a classic that some young people probably find really boring, but I just LOVE all things Southern (but please don't take that to mean I'm a racist). 12. Star Wars-It amazes me that there are people who haven't seen this movie. 13. The Godfather-if you watch this move or Part II, you have to pay close attention. The plot is just so complex. 14. The Departed-this is a really fun movie about a cop who goes undercover as a gangster and a gangster who goes undercover as a cop. Very intriguing to watch the two sides work to essentially discover each other. 15. Batman Begins-the best "origin" story of all time. 16. Jurassic Park-even 20 years later this movie hasn't aged a bit. The dinosaurs look real! 17. Toy Story 3-admit it...you saw it and you cried. 18. Titanic-yeah it may be a bit of a chick flick, but its worth watching if you get the chance and have the time. 19. The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Rings-honestly it's a bit boring, but it's the type of boring that you know waiting through leads to bigger and better things. 20. Dances with Wolves-been a while since I saw this one, but I remember really enjoying it. 21. Raiders of the Lost Ark-the original Inidana Jones movie that is a must see. 22. The Lion King-I think it's the greatest non CGI, animated film of all time. 23. Return of the Jedi-I really want to like this movie more, BUT it just had too many childish elements. 24. Casablanca-another classic form 1943. Most of you would probably find it boring, but I LOVE it. 25. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2-I LOVE the Harry Potter books and I actually really like the movies, but this is the only one that deserves the company of all the other movies I've named. 26. Forrest Gump-really funny movie, a great history lesson, and it has that Southern angle that I love. 27. Jaws-this could have been cheesy, but thankfully the shark wasn't working. 28. Toy Story 2-I need to watch this again, but I know I liked it better than the original. 29. Rain Man-really funny and heartwarming movie. 30. Terminator 2: Judgment Day-pretty amazed at how well told and how complex the plot of a sci-fi/action film can be. These are in no way the ONLY movies I enjoy and they may not even accurately reflex my true top 30 if I sat down and gave it a lot of thought, but if you haven't seen one or any of theses movies I strongly recommend checking them out. 1478. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:19 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I won't do a favorite actor actress list, but I will say that I usually enjoy Jodie Foster and Jack Nicholson's work. Jennifer Lawrence is also very good usually, especially considering how young she still is. Bands/Musicians--it's ever changing, but I always seem to enjoy the following with favorite song: 1. U2 (Elevation) 2. Coldplay (Paradise) 3. Taylor Swift (Mine)--yeah I know. Sue me. 4. Luke Bryan (Country Girl Shake It For Me) 5. Jason Aldean (Dirt Road Anthem) 6. Eminem (Not Afraid) 7. George Strait (Just Give It Away) 8. Green Day (When I Come Around) 9. Brad Paisley (Southern Comfort Zone) 10. Carrie Underwood (All-American Girl) 1479. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I don't know how old you are, but that movie came out the year I was born and nobody I know even knows it exists." I'm 30. Very old by RR standards. 1480. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "11. Gone with the Wind-a classic that some young people probably find really boring, but I just LOVE all things Southern (but please don't take that to mean I'm a racist)." Jesus! I'm South Carolinian. I guess that makes me a "devil", if liking Southern things automatically makes you a racist. Southerner's, like myself, have been given a bad name by people who perpetuate idiotic stereotypes. 1481. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "17. Toy Story 3-admit it...you saw it and you cried." The ONLY movie I've ever shed tears to. As for my all time favorite movies, I like a lot of different/atypical style stuff. Napoleon Dynamite (which was coincidentally shot about an hour from where I live), The Big Lebowski, Office Space, Little Miss Sunshine. My favorites are weird stuff like that along with the classics (Blues Brothers, Raising Arizona, etc). I'm just not really into action movies or movies that are just nothing but special effects. I've never seen any of the Harry Potters, never seen any of the Lord of the Rings, only saw the first two Dark Knights (which I actually did love, but who doesn't love Batman?). I have however always loved Star Wars since I was a little kid, but other than that, I'm just not really into those "epic" movies. And I won't dare try to list my musical tastes or make a list of my favorite musicians, because it would literally take forever. I actually play music, so I try to broaden my tastes and leave my mind open as much as possible. I will say that lately I've been really into jazz though (John Coltrane probably being my favorite jazz artist). 1482. JG24FanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) No order, but here's a list of some of my favorite songs: Wolf Moon by Type O Negative Black Radio by Death In June Day of the Lords by Joy Division Vortex by Spahn Ranch Adorations by Killing Joke Love Like Blood by Killing Joke Mercy in you by Depeche Mode Wheels of Confusion by Black Sabbath Sweet Leaf by Black Sabbath IYDKMIGTHTKY by Type O Negative Rush by Depeche Mode The Calling (MK II) by Death in June Altering the Future by Death The Steps by Visage New years Day by U2 Mercy in You by Depeche Mode Dead Planet by Front Line Assembly Gorilla Biscuits by Gorilla Biscuits Lipstick by Buzzcocks The Reason Why by Ladytron The Him by New Order Solow by Ohgr Face to Face by Siouxsie & the Banshees Marian by Sisters of Mercy Ad Infinitum by Sleep Chamber Isis by Sleep chamber Sun God by Cut Copy Sunday Bloody Sunday by U2 The Passion of Lovers by Bauhaus This is an extremely short list. I'm a massive lover of Music. 1483. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:02 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Gorilla Biscuits by Gorilla Biscuits" YES!!! Love the Biscuits. Love Joy Division too. 1484. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jesus! I'm South Carolinian. I guess that makes me a "devil", if liking Southern things automatically makes you a racist. Southerner's, like myself, have been given a bad name by people who perpetuate idiotic stereotypes." I felt like I had to make the statement I made in the context of me declaring my love for Southern things in a comment about a movie that doesn't portray slavery in a negative light. It doesn't portray it in a positive light, either. It just portrays it as a fact of the time, but there are people who believe Gone with the Wind is racist. Interestingly though, the lady who plays the black servant in the film was actually the first African-American to win an Academy Award. 1485. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) By the way, I was born, raised, and lived my whole life in Alabama so I know what it's like to have the ignorance of some people bear down on you when it comes to race. What's sad is when you have issues like what recently happened at the University of Alabama.* Two black girl (including one who has family on the board of trustees and family involved in state politics) went through sorority rush and had good credentials (good grades, etc.) that should have led to a bid with a good house. As I understand it, the alumnae of a sorority that was going to bid them threatened to cut off funding if they did so they ended up not getting bids despite excellent credentials. Even Governor Bentley has gotten involved to an extent. It's stuff like this that gives the South a bad name. *Full disclosure 1) I am an Aubhrn student and fan, so naturally I have some bias again Alabama. 2) I am not a member of a Greek organization of any type, but I am not anti-Greek. I have several friends (mostly girls) who are involved in Greek life and they are great people. 3) I can tell you Greek organizations DO bid African-Americans at Auburn. Auburn's Greek System also isn't as corrupt as Alabama's (but if you're gonna take my word on that you have to consider point #1 I made). If you want to read some crazy stuff about the University of Alabama, Google "Alabama The Machine." 1486. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:57 am Rate this comment: (3) (4) Somehow my "list" of favorite musicians with names of classicists like Bach, Chopin, and Brahms, and names of modern Christian artists like Mercy Me, Casting Crowns, and Matthew West just isn't that fascinating to you guys. List of movies (in no particular order): Passion of the Christ Lion King 1 & 2 Toy Story 1 & 2 Edge of the Spear ET: The Extra-Terrestrial Star Trek: The Motion Picture A Bug's Life Chicken Run Babe Gone with the Wind All About Eve Gold Raiders Three Stooges Meet Hercules That's every movie I've ever watched :P 1487. Anonomys posted: 09.13.2013 - 8:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Remember that the only team ever to lose a post-season series in MLB history after getting out to a 3-0 lead is the team with the greatest winning tradition of them all, the New York Yankees (against their archrivals, the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS). So even the greatest have collapses like that, though I never really considered that a choke. I can give an Australian V8 Supercars example too. After being ultra-competitive in the 1st half of the 2012 season, Will Davidson collapsed throughout the mid-stages of the season and wound up 4th in the championship. 1488. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 10:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I guess I'm unique on this board in the sense that I just can not listen to heavy metal music. My taste is definitely more old school. Top 5 Favorite Artists: 1. The Beach Boys 2. The Beatles 3. Josh Turner 4. Peter Hollens 5. Pentatonix (I'm a big fan of the acappella genre of music, as evidenced by the last two) "Somehow my "list" of favorite musicians with names of classicists like Bach, Chopin, and Brahms, and names of modern Christian artists like Mercy Me, Casting Crowns, and Matthew West just isn't that fascinating to you guys." Oh, I don't know about that. I like classical music, although I prefer Beethoven personally (his Moonlight Sonata might be the most beautiful piece of music ever written). If you wanted to go more recent, then I really like John Williams (composer of the movie themes for Star Wars, Jurassic Park, etc.) and Howard Shore (composer of the movie themes for Lord of the Rings, Silence of the Lambs, etc.). And as for the Christian genre, as funny as it may sound coming out of my mouth (or my keyboard, however you want to put it), there are actually a few Christian acappella groups that I quite like, my personal favorite being an Oregon-based group called Rescue. In a similar vein, I also kind of like the Oak Ridge Boys (Richard Sterban kicks ass with that bass voice of his). 1489. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "5. Pentatonix (I'm a big fan of the acappella genre of music, as evidenced by the last two)" They just played a shown at Auburn about a week ago. 1490. Jim Davis posted: 09.13.2013 - 11:30 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I'm 30. Very old by RR standards." At 56, I'm positively immortal by RR standards. Favorite actors: 1. Cary Grant 2. James Stewart 3. John Wayne 4. Humphrey Bogart 5. Katherine Hepburn 6. Tom Hanks 7. Sophia Loren 8. Peter Lorre 9. Robert Mitchum 10. Dean Martin Favorite movies: 1. Rear Window 2. Rio Bravo 3. The Maltese Falcon 4. King Kong 5. The Thing from Outer Space 6. Forbidden Planet 7. Raiders of the Lost Ark 8. Dial M for Murder 9. The Empire Strikes Back 10. High Noon 1491. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 11:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some random news and notes from around the NASCAR world during the past few days: - Dale Earnhardt's rear tire changer Joe Slingerland will be out at least a month with a broken wrist and a concussion suffered during a team outing. David Mayo, former tire changer for Jimmie Johnson, will take his place. - Kurt Busch will not run the IndyCar season finale race at Las Vegas this year due to no sponsor interest. Busch has said that this will not affect his decision to attempt the Indy 500 next year. - Jeb Burton will make his Nationwide Series debut at Kentucky Speedway next weekend, driving the #34 for Turner Motorsports. - After 4 weeks of absence, Eric McClure has finally been cleared to race and will return to NASCAR competition this weekend at Chicagoland. - Austin Dillon will return to Trucks competition this weekend, driving the #24 for NTS Motorsports while regular driver Brennan Newberry recovers from an illness. 1492. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No sponsor wants to be associated with Kurt Busch? What a surprise! 1493. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Quick edit to the post above, the IndyCar finale is at California Speedway. When I saw that, I assumed Kurt changed his mind because he made the Chase. 1494. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm an idiot. Of course the IndyCar finale isn't at Las Vegas. Why would it be after what happened in 2011? 1495. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 12:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) I swear, NASCAR is an absolute joke if they change the Chase AGAIN. Now it lets you know that if enough fans complain about something, they'll bend. Get ready for a 15k-signee petition on Change.org demanding Danica Patrick win the Daytona 500. And the winner is... 1496. Mr X posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:07 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Well Larry Mac and Kyle Petty just through NASCAR under the bus, if you're watching practice. 1497. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Watch them put Gordon in. They've looked for a reason and now they have it. What a joke. 1498. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh my goodness please shut up!!!!I highly doubt Gordon will be in the Chase. And my opinion is the finish of that race was a joke!!! Gordon may have not had the best season but I seen all the evidence I needed. I'm over it. I hope he does get in but like I said its unlikely at this point. 1499. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) According to Twitter, which admittedly isn't a news outlet, they're still investigating. 1500. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky is a personal favorite of mine, especially since it was on the computer game Risk II. In lieu of favorite movies, I'll post my favorite TV shows: 1. The Andy Griffith Show (black-and-white only) 2. Get Smart 3. Psych (the only representative from the past three decades) 4. Hogan's Heroes 5. I Love Lucy 6. Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. 7. I Dream of Jeannie 8. F Troop 9. Green Acres 10. Petticoat Junction 8-10 are interchangeable. It's also worth noting that I haven't seen every episode of some of the aforementioned shows. Honorary Mentions: The Burns and Allen Show and The Jack Benny Program. I have neither of those on DVD, but I've seen them on TV occasionally. 1501. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only way Gordon should be in the Chase now is if NASCAR re-reviews the evidence on Bowyer's spin and disqualifies him from the Chase. Logano should not, repeat, SHOULD NOT be kicked out. It will be an absolute travesty if he is. 1502. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Yea they're still investigating but its Friday. I'm 95% sure Gordon won't be in The Chase.They can penalize in other ways too ya know.... Top five favorite sitcoms: #1. Seinfeld #2. Everybody loves Raymond #3. Modern Family #4. Golden Girls (so sue me!!!) #5. Cheers 1503. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Seinfeld is a must in the top five. Friends, for years, was also a great one. Re: Gordon, many think he will be added as a 13th driver in the Chase. Which would be ridiculous. That's kind of what I was complaining about, adding an extra guy to the Chase. Also, 30 Rock has become one of my favorite shows. 1504. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No I don't think adding a 13th driver is that bad. Under the circumstances but NASCAR would only do that if they had felt Bowyer spun out on purpose and they didn't. In my opinion and my liking in Jeff Gordon honestly has nothing to do with it Gordon got robbed and Newman almost did. Spinning out to help is a no no and I don't agree at all with helping teammates by dropping positions on purpose. Its called a race dammit! 1505. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) But Gordon would be in because Logano supposedly gained a spot in poor faith. The only fallacy there would be they would have tied on points, Logano would still be 10th, and Gordon would STILL be out. I don't understand it, but just based on how long they're dragging this out, all the Hendrick cars will likely be in the Chase when the green drops Sunday. I think that's a travesty, because Gordon didn't qualify for the Chase, and yet he could still be in it. My reasoning: NASCAR stands to gain more attention if it puts Gordon in the Chase. That alone makes me confident they'll do it, because they'll do anything for attention. 1506. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not if the give Logano a points penalty, then he drops out of the Top ten Gordon gets vaulted in, but Logano is still a wild card with his win so he still makes chase. There's a tiny tiny chance of that happening 1507. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Top 5 Favorite Sitcoms: 1. The Big Bang Theory (Nerds unite!) 2. Frasier 3. Friends 4. Everybody Loves Raymond 5. M.A.S.H. I haven't seen more than an episode or two of either Seinfeld or Cheers, so I can't honestly rank them in this list. The same goes for M.A.S.H., but the only other sitcoms that I've really watched are Golden Girls (4 elderly women talking about, ahem, intimate relationships; joy), Scrubs (this show is almost borderline psychedelic at times with some of their scenes), and How I Met Your Mother (iffy plot, mediocre acting; Neil Patrick Harris is the only real talent out of all of them). 1508. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DARN IT! Since I was only considering shows I had on DVD, I left out M*A*S*H. That is solidly in my top five. 1509. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Revised list: 1. The Andy Griffith Show 2. Get Smart 3. M*A*S*H 4. Psych 5. Hogan's Heroes 6. Gilligan's Island 7. I Love Lucy 8. Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. 9. I Dream of Jeannie 10. F Troop There. That looks much better. 1510. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not if the penalty would drop him behind Ryan Newman, BON GORDON. If Logano got a penalty similar to what the MWR drivers got, if would actually drop him behind Newman, and thus out of the Chase. 1511. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) NASCAR will hold a press conference in about 20 minutes. It looks increasingly likely Gordon will be added to The Chase. 1512. Schroeder51 posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would only be happy with Gordon making the Chase if Logano was not removed from the Chase to place him in. I'm not even anywhere close to being a fan of Logano, but I still think he deserves to be in the Chase. I actually counted him out of making the Chase after his back-to-back 40ths at Daytona and New Hampshire, and then he managed to claw his way all the way up from almost being outside the top 20 in points to the top 10. That rather impressed me. It would be a shame to see him get bumped out. 1513. DB1995 posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) If NASCAR takes Logano out of the chase im officially done with NASCAR for the rest of the season. Except for trucks, they have no proof that Penske payed Front Row to do that 1514. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. 1515. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Considering, as far as I can tell, Brian France almost never goes to the actual races, I find it hard to believe that the CEO would come in to hold a press conference just to say that the evidence was insufficient for them to issue penalties. Maybe they'll just scrap The Chase altogether this year... 1516. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) It would be epic if this announcement was Brian France announcing his retirement. 1517. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like I got home just in time. :) 1518. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 13 DRIVER CHASE WITH JEFF GORDON 1519. Rexrobe posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jeff Gordon added to the Chase as a 13th driver! 1520. Canadianfan posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jeff's in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1521. joey2448 posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) JEFF GORDON IS IN THE CHASE!!!!!!! Holy shit! 1522. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So the only punishment for Penske is probation? My internet cut out for a minute. So much for the "NASCAR hates Jeff" conspiracy theory... 1523. Smiff_2 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I knew I was right! Well, HALF right....lol 1524. Mr X posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) There you go, Gordon is in as a 13th Chaser, no further meaningful penalties to any chasers, IMO probation generally only means anything if you are famous for making bad decisions, most of you will likely agree. Good to see Logano still in, unfortunate to see that Bowyer still receives no real penalty. 1525. 83andJoe posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hopefully this will be the final straw so after this weekend we can bury the Chase under a crossroads with a stake in its heart. The problem, though, is that this basically says that any time a driver has cut another driver a break through "professional courtesy" - such as, say, all those years drivers would stomp on their brakes to let other cars (such as teammates) back on the lead lap? That was "action detrimental to stock car racing", and therefore every race result ever is now questionable. /Wonderful/. 1526. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) If Penske cheated, they cheated. Take points from Logano like you did with Truex, and Gordon gets in the Chase that way. Instead, Penske (and FRM) get the non-penalty of probation even though what they did isn't much worse than what MWR did. Even in trying to be consistent, NASCAR ends up looking as inconsistent as ever, and I'm pretty sure it's because they've already been promoting the Chase as including Logano. I don't think Logano should have been taken out, but this decision reeks of inconsistency when compared to the MWR situation. 1527. 83andJoe posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) >so after this weekend I wish; I meant "after this year". 1528. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Yes!!!!!!! What happened 1529. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes!!!!!!! What happened 1530. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jeff Gordon is IN the chase, and it is now a 13 car chase this year. 1531. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) LMAO, just noticed the backdrop for the press conference says 2012! Looks like NASCAR should dole out some more monetary fines so they can update their logos. 1532. Matt G posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) HO-LE-SHIT!!! 1533. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (4) (5) Why not let Danica in too? She's popular. That's all that matters. 1534. luigistarted06 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In 2010, Paul Menard missed the Daytona Nationwide race until Jack Roush paid off roughly 5 or 6 teams in order for his team to get in through a provisional. So, that was allowed? I don't get it, all these double standards 1535. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like this call. Yeah, it was a fishy situation with the 22 and 38, but I understand why they didn't take Logano out. There was apparently no communication on the 22 radio, so I guess that part is pretty inconclusive. And I also like Gordon getting added in just because he got screwed by the MWR stuff. I'm just shocked though that they decided to add a 13th spot. I would have been all for that, but to me it seemed like a pipe dream since they are so gung ho about their "12 drivers - 1 winner" marketing stuff. I never would have thought that they would do the right thing and just add another spot. But yeah, overall, I like this. 1536. DB1995 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (4) (4) So every year now NASCAR will just pick a random person close to the chase and put him in, bullshit! And just so you know i kinda like Gordon 1537. luigistarted06 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:13 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) Also it's interesting that on Friday the 13th, in September 2013, they added a 13th driver to the chase 1538. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (3) (5) Just turned on my TV. Why is Brain France on my screen, and why am I seeing a graphic saying "Jeff Gordon will be the 13th car in 2013 chase"? I guess the Hendrick Button was pressed again. Shady cautions didn't work, so they finally just threw up their hands and said "screw it, we are just putting Gordon in". A damn joke. There it is, we have Gordon in the chase. I guess somebody has to finish 8th. Must be nice to work for Rick Hendrick who gets everything he wants. This season CANNOT end soon enough. 1539. Archie posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) The Gordon haters celebrated all week that he got screwed out of the Chase thanks to the various Ford & Toyota felonies, and now it's great to watch them taste their own bile as NASCAR (for a rare thing they've done right in the past decade) put Gordon in!!! Seeing as how the guiltiest party in all of this has totally escaped being penalized -- don't give me some crap about a meaningless 50 points at Richmond PRIOR to Chase seedings -- NASCAR should make "doing the right thing" 100% complete by putting Truex in and kicking Bowyer out. 1540. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Adding Jeff to the Chase as the 13th driver was the right thing to do. As a result, I'll be revising my Chase predictions as far as the championship goes, though the race predictions will remain as was mentioned in post #1224. But before I do, I must say that Brian France was unusually blunt for him by saying that he had the authority to so, and continued to be blunt about how unfair the sequence of events were to the #24 team during the press conference. So here are the revised predictions for the Chase with the additions of the 13th driver (Gordon): 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Matt Kenseth 3. Carl Edwards 4. Kyle Busch 5. Kevin Harvick 6. Clint Bowyer 7. Kasey Kahne 8. JEFF GORDON 9. Dale, Jr. 10. Kurt Busch 11. Ryan Newman 12. Greg Biffle 13. Joey Logano NOTE: Jeff Gordon's name was put in upper case lettering due to the fact that he was the addition to the Chase. It's ironic that Gordon is added to the Chase as the 13th driver on Friday the 13th. I do find that more than a bit ironic. 1541. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Wherever Gordon and Bowyer finish in the Chase, they'll get a big * from me alongside it. 1542. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (10) Why didn't Dale Jr. make the Chase in 2010? He had all the requirements: A) Be a Hendrick driver B) Have lots of fans Clearly nothing else matters. NASCAR couldn't help itself. No matter what, they got their man in the Chase. Gotta suck for Dale Jr. fans, their guy will be remembered as the only guy to make the Chase but STILL finish outside the top 12. 1543. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's only fitting that the two cars that MWR screwed are in and Truex isn't. I like this idea, because Logano deserved to be in, so you can't take him out. And a 13th chase driver is added...on Friday the 13th. 1544. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I neglected to mention that Gordon was named the 13th driver in the Chase on Friday the 13th (of September), in the year 2013. 13's are running wild today in NASCAR. 1545. We need more Onion posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I want Kurt Busch win the cup without any wins just to increase the ridiculousness of this year, possibly the worst since NASCAR's inception. 1546. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I'm ecstatic right now! 1547. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not sure if it means anything, but this weekend's race will be the 13th at Chicagoland. 1548. JP88 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Next year's addition to the chase: A fan vote to determine lucky chaser #13. Has to be in top-20 in points. *NASCAR thinks about it further* Make that top-30. 1549. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (3) (9) Now Gordon gets to beat drivers in the Chase that he didn't deserve to beat. Just like last year when he won a race (Homestead) he didn't deserve to enter. Jeff Gordon: The Official Driver of NASCAR. And Racing-Reference.info. 1550. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They could make it easier and just include a bid for the top points-earning female driver. 1551. FloridaFan88 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The Chase is truly a farce. 1552. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) These are my thoughts... Selfish Gordon fan reaction: WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The perfect antidote for a lousy day!!!! Realistic, objective reaction: Really, NASCAR? Moving him in because Logano and Gilliland made a deal? 1553. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I'm watching Truck qualifying, and even through the penalties MWR had, Michael Waltrip is still self-promoting himself and babbling on like a clueless moron on live television. 1554. Kevin posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Think that's a very appropriate reaction David. This was mine Monday: Selfish Clint fan reaction: "Phew still got a shot to win the title." Realistic, objective reaction: "How on earth does he still have a shot to win the title after doing that?" My reaction today is stunned. I don't think it is a good idea for NASCAR to have more than 12 drivers in the chase. And I don't get why on Monday it wasn't enough to add Jeff, but today it is when they stated they don't believe a bargain happened in Front Row-Penske talks. 1555. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) NASCAR just had it's American Idol moment. Since everyone has been talking about TV series today, I will say this: Archie Bunker could do a better job of running NASCAR than these guys. 1556. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, guys, I'm planning on buying tickets to Talladega. Usually, my parents or friends do the purchasing and I pay them back. This year, however, I'm actually purchasing my own. First off, where should I buy them? Talladega's site? Next, where is the best seating available? 1557. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (2) (4) For those of you wondering why Gordon doesn't leave Hendrick, this is why. He can miss the Chase and still qualify. If Truex drove for Hendrick, Newman wouldn't be in the Chase, but Truex would. What blatant favoritism. Just like last year at Homestead. Gordon should just drive the No. $ Chevy sponsored by NASCAR. 1558. cjs3872 posted: 09.13.2013 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Well, what Mike Helton did on Monday night and what he and Brian France did today are the very kinds of things that a commissioner would do because of the power they would hold. Had the situation with the 22 and 38 teams been known earlier, they probably would have acted earlier. The decision to add Gordon as an extra Chase driver was totally the right thing to do, given the circumstances, and I think Mike Helton and Brian France are to be applauded for their decision, which I know could not have been an easy one to make. The only question I have is, would they have made this decision if it put a lesser name in the Chase? That I'm not sure about, and I hope we never have to find out the answer to that question. But that aside, the decision itself was the correct one to make, and the only reasonable one to make. 1559. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Imagine If Jeff Gordon wins the championship this year... 1560. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hey, guys, I'm planning on buying tickets to Talladega. Usually, my parents or friends do the purchasing and I pay them back. This year, however, I'm actually purchasing my own. First off, where should I buy them? Talladega's site? Next, where is the best seating available?" Hold old are you? if you are a college student, I recommend getting their $19 tickets. Even if you aren't a college student, but are on a budget, I'd get a college aged person to get them for you if you can. I've never been asked to show my student ID the two times I've been. They are decent seats where you can see the whole track. If you can afford to go all out, then get tickets at the start/finish line as high up as possible. 1561. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) After seeing the conference with the Jeff Gordon announcement, why does Brian France always look drunk? 1562. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That should say that the college student tickets can see MOST of the track. Not the whole track, sorry. 1563. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Laughable statement of the millenium, courtesy of Brian France: "The integrity of the sport will never be in question." 1564. MStall41 posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) God, I can't defend NASCAR on this one. What a short sighted and credibility-killing move this was. I will post more complete thoughts later in the week after I have digested this, but as it stands right now I feel this may just be the stupidest decision NASCAR has ever made. Just ridiculous. As someone who has a vested interest in the future of the sport (my dream is to cover the sport for a living as a journalist), today's news depressed and scared the hell out of me. I might not have a future job some day in this sport at the rate this is going, which is horribly saddening to me, because I LOVE this sport and have every intention of devoting my career to covering it. Just a shame. 1565. murb posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "I'm watching Truck qualifying, and even through the penalties MWR had, Michael Waltrip is still self-promoting himself and babbling on like a clueless moron on live television." Because that's what Michael Waltrip does best. "I want Kurt Busch win the cup without any wins just to increase the ridiculousness of this year, possibly the worst since NASCAR's inception." This is what I hope too. While I'm fine with this Gordon announcement, I overall agree with what 83andJoe was saying. Hopefully all of this causes the downfall of the Chase format. "why does Brian France always look drunk?" Not only that, but he acts and talks like it too. For about five of the questions they asked him today, he answered "I don't know, we'll address it tomorrow". He clearly has no idea and no grasp of what he's doing. 1566. TS1420 posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) Are you f***ing kidding me! Just another case of NASCAR getting out the rulebook written on a dry-erase board and changing it to fit their agenda. I bet the first time Jimmie Johnson misses the chase, NASCAR will retroactively create a "past champions chase provision". Hey NASCAR. Since you are all about "righting wrongs from Richmond", how about you take the win away from Carl Edwards and give it to Kurt Busch? Oh, that was your wrong and you guys ain't about to admit any mistakes on your part... 1567. BON GORDON posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I can understand why certain fans are upset. NASCAR was in a no win situation. As a Gordon fan I was hoping they would let him in for sure but I would've accepted him missing the chase too. He better work hard in this chase and not put himself in the same position next season. 1568. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I apologize for my Archie Bunker comment, I went a bit too far there. But I do think that this is a knee-jerk move that further takes away from the legitimacy of the Chase. At least they kept Logano in though. 1569. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "I'm an idiot. Of course the IndyCar finale isn't at Las Vegas. Why would it be after what happened in 2011?" Greg Moore died at Fontana and they're back. "I want Kurt Busch win the cup without any wins just to increase the ridiculousness of this year, possibly the worst since NASCAR's inception." I'd be for that. Weirdly I'm the opposite of David here. I'm not a fan of Gordon AT ALL, but I think this was the right thing to do. I'd have been pissed if they kicked Logano out for Gordon, especially because there was a lot less proof here than there was in the case with the #56 (if they wanted Gordon in a 12-driver chase Bowyer should have been kicked out), Logano had had a much better season statistically, and Logano was getting screwed over by NASCAR all race. Without the Bowyer spin, Gordon probably would have been in. Without NASCAR's poor officiating earlier in that race, Logano would have certainly stayed ahead of Gordon and the #22 wouldn't have HAD to arrange a deal with the #38. Sure, let 'em both in. Fine. This doesn't bother me the way kicking out Logano would have. They should have kicked out BOWYER though. The chase is a farce, but it's always been a farce and now people are finally realizing this. There was far less of this when there were very few multi-car teams and we had a full season schedule. Will I be watching Chicagoland? Absolutely not. Wish there was an IndyCar race this weekend. Maybe I'll go watch one of the classic IRL races there instead... 1570. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "full season schedule" I obviously meant full season championship there. 1571. Schroeder51 posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have some very mixed feelings on this decision. I'm happy that Gordon is in the Chase, but this was definitely a no-win situation for NASCAR. Any credibility the Chase might have had has all but gone out the window. I still find it BS that Bowyer still has a legitimate shot at the championship (he should have either gotten penalized post-Chase reset to ensure he doesn't have much of a chance, or his penalty should be stiff enough to keep him out of the Chase). Like others, I personally hope this fiasco leads to NASCAR doing away at the Chase, but most likely it will lead to drastic changes that will upset people even more. I could say NASCAR instituting a fan vote to select a 13th driver to compete for the championship like someone else mentioned (in that case, Danica Patrick will be making the Chase for sure despite very little in the way of results). I could also see NASCAR making the Chase consist of the top 20 drivers in points after Richmond. All in all, all I can say is that this is one of the ugliest moments in NASCAR history. 1572. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Being a fan of both Logano and Gordon, this is the best scenario I could have hoped for. Being a fan of this sport in general, however, I am shaking my head. 1573. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "After seeing the conference with the Jeff Gordon announcement, why does Brian France always look drunk?" My best guess would be because he always IS drunk, or possibly stoned. "I bet the first time Jimmie Johnson misses the chase, NASCAR will retroactively create a "past champions chase provision"." That will only happen if Johnson somehow becomes popular and therefore marketable. Needless to say, probably not gonna happen. "NASCAR just had it's American Idol moment." Reminds me more of Big Brother than anything. 1574. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I could also see NASCAR making the Chase consist of the top 20 drivers in points after Richmond." Not only that, but with an INVERT after the first 5 Chase races. At the very least, a lot of NASCAR fans will enjoy to see Johnson starting and parking for 5 races. The race to the garage might get kind of hectic though. 1575. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (3) (4) Looked like Gordon* got by the 5 and 88 pretty easily too on Saturday night. Maybe NASCAR should look into that. SURELY they didn't pull over. SURELY the 88, who would bend over backwards to help his teammates, even at his own expense, wouldn't do that. Who am I kidding? The only penalties they'd issue would be adding 50 points to Gordon*'s total, or however many Hendrick* wants them to add. 1576. Anonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Not only that, but with an INVERT after the first 5 Chase races. At the very least, a lot of NASCAR fans will enjoy to see Johnson starting and parking for 5 races. The race to the garage might get kind of hectic though." BSPN or NBC Announcer: Oh my god! Huge pile up at the garage entrance on pitroad involving all 20 chasers after lap 1! 1577. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (11) I hate people complaining about Gordon not getting suspended and whining about he didn't "deserve to race at Homestead" last year. BIG news people: the reason NASCAR couldn't suspend Gordon was because HE WASN'T ON PROBATION. Kevin Harvick in 2002, Robby Gordon in 2007, and Kyle Busch in 2011 were ALL already on probation when they had their individual incidents, which is why they got suspended. 1578. Kyle posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Reading Brian France`s chat transcript adds validity to the substance abuse rumors. It really doesn't make sense, he never finishes a thought, just rambling nonsense. 1579. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (4) (15) So what you're saying is if Gordon punches a driver, wrecks that driver's car, says he hates babies and voted for Obama on TV, then takes his clothes off and has sex with Clint Bowyer's gas tank, he WON'T be suspended, because he's not on probation? Or is it because he's Jeff Gordon and he can do whatever he wants without getting in trouble? Remember The Jordan Rules in the 90's? Now we have The Gordon Rules. 1580. Rexrobe posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The only thing I remember clearly from the presser is Brian saying "*I* have the authority!" like a snotty high school kid. 1581. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""I'm an idiot. Of course the IndyCar finale isn't at Las Vegas. Why would it be after what happened in 2011?" Greg Moore died at Fontana and they're back." Out of curiosity, did they get rid of that access road that Moore's car flew over, or did they at least reconfigure it? 1582. joey2448 posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Post 1559 -- People were asking a similar question after the Phoenix race last year (What if Jeff Gordon wins at Homestead, a race he should be suspended for?) 1583. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know they paved over the infield grass where Moore accelerated, which pretty much solved the main problem there. Well, one of the main problems. He shouldn't have been allowed in that race after breaking his hand the previous day... 1584. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (6) No matter what happens in the Cha$e, Jeff Gordon* will be the 14th-place finisher in points to me this year. Truex will be 13th. I don't get how Pemberton said NASCAR was trying to protect "its integrity." When did Jeff Gordon change his name to Its Integrity? 1585. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) "So what you're saying is if Gordon punches a driver, wrecks that driver's car, says he hates babies and voted for Obama on TV, then takes his clothes off and has sex with Clint Bowyer's gas tank" I hate the implication here that all of these are equal (and suspension-worthy) offenses. Wasn't there something of a scandal a few years ago about Kasey Kahne getting grossed out about women breastfeeding? And who the hell cares who any celebrities vote for? 1586. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Fontana's safety issue was a backstretch run-off that needed to be paved, that's it. LVMS was a fundamental issue with the track that due to it's wide corner radius and lack of sharper corners like TMS. Pack Racing at LVMS is unavoidable and pack racing at 220 MPH is stupid. 1587. TeamPlayersBlue posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And yes they paved it all the year after. 1588. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Champ Car and IRL had fine races at LVMS before it was reconfigured. Randy Bernard (who had very little racing knowledge) did not understand that the track being repaved would make it too dangerous to race. Although with the DW12, Las Vegas might work now, since they've successfully broken up the pack racing at Texas (too much I think, but still...) 1589. Sean posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) reconfigured, not repaved Ugh, I need to proofread more of my posts. Badly. 1590. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:09 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "So what you're saying is if Gordon punches a driver, wrecks that driver's car, says he hates babies and voted for Obama on TV, then takes his clothes off and has sex with Clint Bowyer's gas tank, he WON'T be suspended, because he's not on probation?" So you think drivers should be suspended because of their political beliefs? OOOOOOOOK... Junior Johnson voted for Obama in 2008, maybe he should be removed from the Hall of Fame. I don't see why someone's political preferences should have anything to do with their ability to drive a car, so I hope you are joking. 1591. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the one hand I'm happy for Jeff Gordon since he truly got screwed by all the BS that went down Saturday night. On the other giving Penske and Front Row probation is just a slap on the wrist, the chase and NASCAR are a complete joke. 1592. joey2448 posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Imagine If Jeff Gordon wins the championship this year... " People had a similar sentiment after the Phoenix race last year (What if Jeff Gordon wins at Homestead, a race he should be suspended for?) "All in all, all I can say is that this is one of the ugliest moments in NASCAR history." Uglier than the incident in 1956 that almost killed Herb Thomas? 1593. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (4) (14) What ticks me off with this is the distinct knowledge that if cjs had written the exact same post word-for-word arrogant morons like Bro Jackson would be calling me the most brilliant person who ever lived. I am sick of posts getting hated (and I am not speaking of the little candy-butt crybabies that thumb-down my posts) because they are written by me. I have bitten my tongue for a month now, and I am telling you all now that if you hate my posts so much just because they are written by me, then you are dangerously insane because you hate me enough where you would murder somebody just because they are my friend. You are not a scab on my butt, nor will anybody ever be because I AM NOT YOU. I am who I am and if you can't live with it get the hell out of here. "So what you're saying is if Gordon punches a driver, wrecks that driver's car, says he hates babies and voted for Obama on TV, then takes his clothes off and has sex with Clint Bowyer's gas tank" Sad example because YES if he punched somebody and wrecked his car, he wouldn't get suspended. It's happened several times in recent years. I am sure at some point he probably said who he voted for. If he hates babies, he is in the majority male crowned. If he takes his clothes off and has sex with Clint Bowyer's gas tank, then he would be going into the mental hospital for the rest of his life. Bro Jackson, that was one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever read. At no point in your rambling incoherent responses were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in Nascar and RR is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. 1594. SoLongNascar posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (2) (5) Well, they finally did it. They finally turned NASCAR into such a pointless, incoherent joke, that I just don't care to watch any more. I've found myself less and less engaged this year than ever before, and finally I simply don't care. The only driver I ever liked was Tony Stewart and it's amazing how completely unengaged in the finish of every race I am now that he's not there. Thank god it's football season, so I'll have something good to watch to make the transition easier. I bet after a few weeks of simply ignoring NASCAR completely, I'll forget what I ever saw in the sport in the first place. I don't think I'm done with racing altogether, I still get enjoyment out of open wheel racing. Not surprisingly, I only started watching NASCAR because of the Split. Now, NASCAR can screw off. Take your constant pandering to southern stereotypes, your cookie cutter tracks, your whiny drivers, your rules made up on the fly, your ridiculously dumb playoff format, and just screw off, NASCAR. And you wonder why fewer and fewer people are showing up and tuning in. What a pathetic mess NASCAR has become. 1595. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:39 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) Hey, NicoRosbergFan, how about giving some credit to those of us who have stuck up for you throughout these past few months? You act like the entire world is against you, and yet you seem to be forgetting that there have been a number of us who actually support you and enjoy conversing with you. Don't check us all into the mental ward for the criminally insane just yet. 1596. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (11) Kid, calm down. "Hey, NicoRosbergFan, how about giving some credit to those of us who have stuck up for you throughout these past few months? You act like the entire world is against you, and yet you seem to be forgetting that there have been a number of us who actually support you and enjoy conversing with you. Don't check us all into the mental ward for the criminally insane just yet. " I directed my post toward Bro Jackson for a reason. 1597. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "Well, they finally did it. They finally turned NASCAR into such a pointless, incoherent joke, that I just don't care to watch any more. I've found myself less and less engaged this year than ever before, and finally I simply don't care. The only driver I ever liked was Tony Stewart and it's amazing how completely unengaged in the finish of every race I am now that he's not there. Thank god it's football season, so I'll have something good to watch to make the transition easier. I bet after a few weeks of simply ignoring NASCAR completely, I'll forget what I ever saw in the sport in the first place. I don't think I'm done with racing altogether, I still get enjoyment out of open wheel racing. Not surprisingly, I only started watching NASCAR because of the Split. Now, NASCAR can screw off. Take your constant pandering to southern stereotypes, your cookie cutter tracks, your whiny drivers, your rules made up on the fly, your ridiculously dumb playoff format, and just screw off, NASCAR. And you wonder why fewer and fewer people are showing up and tuning in. What a pathetic mess NASCAR has become." See you next week then, "Baker disguised as "So Long NASCAR"". 1598. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (10) I think the biggest flaw of the thumb system is how people obviously close their browsers and come in here multiple times so that they can thumb-down a post multiple times, as happened to the KFC Bone Eater, Bro Jackson's #1579, and my #1593. Are there people who really think they're big for shooting from behind? 1599. joey2448 posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) I can't believe what I'm hearing about people saying they're going to stop watching NASCAR because of this whole fiasco. Yes, I understand the whole situation has cast further doubt on the sport as a legitimate business, but what was NASCAR to do? They were tasked with making a very tough decision, and no matter what the outcome was going to be, fans would be split down the middle. You can't please everyone, and I for one think they made the right decision. The only things I wasn't as happy about was the fact that Bowyer got off with no penalty, and Truex didn't make the Chase when he was deserving of it. But like I said, not everyone can be in the Chase. Even with the situation we have that is bringing NASCAR's credibility and consistency into question, I think they made the best decision they were capable of, and I still plan on watching every race from here on out, because I am a race fan! I watch racing because I enjoy it! 1600. Matt G posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) As others have already stated (and I wholeheartedly agree with them), Nascar was in a no win situation here. Today they basically had three options, and all of them were going to make the governing body look foolish. 1) Do nothing - This to me would have been the worst option. After handing down penalties earlier in the week, this would be a sign of remarkable inconsistency and also a sign that Nascar is waving a white flag to team orders. (Not to mention that Gordon fans probably would have burned down the offices in Daytona Beach) 2) Penalize Lagano's team, remove him from the Chase, and therefore add Jeff Gordon's team into the Chase - This idea has some positives in that it comes down on team orders and shady deal making, but to remove a team from this Chase THIS LATE IN THE GAME (after practice for Chicago had already started) and taking a driver out of the Chase Field for the second time in five days would have come across as ridiculous. 3) Add Jeff Gordon to the Chase for the totality of events that occurred in the closing laps - Again, there's mixed reviews here. For Nascar, it gets the Gordon fans off their backs an adds yet another driver to the Chase which they love for "manufactured excitement" purposes I talked about earlier in the week, and it also partially rights a wrong from Saturday night. I think Nasacar had no idea how strong, and how venomous the fan reaction was going to be after these events and I believe that they did not want every Jeff Gordon fan in this country (of which there are tons) to be calling the sport a fraud over these next ten weeks. That's not going to stop others from calling it a fraud, but is does quiet the most vocal group. Like the other two decisions though, the negatives still outweigh the positives. Adding a 13th driver to the Chase changes the rules in the middle of the game (which takes away integrity despite what Brian France tries to sell) and failing to penalize the 22 and 38 now open up a mystery novel worth of question as to why the radio communication on the 55 team was so much worse than the radio communication here. In short, it's still a mess. For today, and ONLY for today, I can't blame Nascar for this decision. They were in a box with no way out. However, they were in this box because of the actions they failed to take from earlier in the week. If they had dealt with the MWR scandal properly and handed each car at MWR a 100 point penalty like I suggested all the way up at post 589 at 11:32 PM on Saturday night, they would not have had this problem today. A 100 point hammer would have knocked Clint out of the Chase on Monday (a fair punishment in my eyes for the lengths he and the entire MWR team went to in order to manipulate the end of that race) and put Jeff Gordon in. That would have sent a clear and decisive message to everyone involved. Then, when the 22 and 38 radio transmission surfaced later in the week, you could have hit Logano with a 50 point penalty today without changing the Chase Field as Logano still would get in as a Wild Card. The only thing you would have to do today is take away Logano's three bonus points he's starting with and hand the to Newman as that would move the #39 into the top ten. (The 22 gets a smaller penalty than the MWR cars because their manipulation was much, much small) One positive I do think that's coming out of this though is the meeting tomorrow. For everything Nascar has screwed up here, I do like that they are trying to now established a line of what you can and can't do with team orders going forward. They are very, very late to the party here, but I'm glad they did show up. Tomorrow could actually be a very big day in the history of the sport. Fans come to the track to watch 43 individual teams pour their heart and soul into winning races, not for multi million dollar teams in bed with corporations play games and screw with the running order. I'm very interested to see what comes out of this. Hopefully it's something good. The fans were heard this week, now it's a matter of how Nascar reacts to these cries long term. 1601. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (10) " 1593. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (2) (6)" " 1596. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) " Feelin' big yet Bro? Or are ya ready to come out like a man wid da facts? 1602. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'm fairly sure that wasn't Baker. 1603. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (10) (0) "Kid, calm down." Seriously, NRF? I've talked with people almost 3 times your age who were less condescending than you are. 1604. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (12) (5) I see a lot of posters have no ability to detect sarcasm. But at least one is so intelligent as to rip off a line from a childish movie to try and insult me. It's as if I walked back into a middle-school classroom and got "insulted." That's just as sad as Gordon being gifted a Chase spot, and unlike some posters who care about how many thumbs-ups they get, I really don't care what The RR chapter of the Jeff Gordon Fan Club thinks when I post, least of all when they voice their displeasure by clicking a button. Look guys, your man made the Chase but it took NASCAR rigging it for him to make it. Now he gets to finish higher than people who ACTUALLY QUALIFIED. You must be so proud! 1605. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (9) "I see a lot of posters have no ability to detect sarcasm. But at least one is so intelligent as to rip off a line from a childish movie to try and insult me. It's as if I walked back into a middle-school classroom and got "insulted." That's just as sad as Gordon being gifted a Chase spot, and unlike some posters who care about how many thumbs-ups they get, I really don't care what The RR chapter of the Jeff Gordon Fan Club thinks when I post, least of all when they voice their displeasure by clicking a button. Look guys, your man made the Chase but it took NASCAR rigging it for him to make it. Now he gets to finish higher than people who ACTUALLY QUALIFIED. You must be so proud! " You were serious and you know it, so shut your worthless mouth up. 1606. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.13.2013 - 8:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (18) "Seriously, NRF? I've talked with people almost 3 times your age who were less condescending than you are. " Seriously, TLS? I've talked with people almost 1/3 third your age who are more mature than you are. 1607. Kyle posted: 09.13.2013 - 8:29 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) NRF are you incapable of going one week without hijacking a discussion about how you're being persecuted. If you really think it's just one person thumbing you down you're delusional. I've thumbed down some of your posts but I've NEVER been the first to do it. DSFF, TLS, and every other person here has been thumbed down but for some reason youre the only person who seem to take offense. 1608. Bro Jackson posted: 09.13.2013 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (5) (5) Well thank God someone knows what I was saying better than I do. I had better be thankful my "worthless mouth" is capable of saying things, since it clearly wasn't my fingers typing them on a keyboard. And no, that was totally not sarcasm. Totally not. In no way, shape or form. I was serious and I knew it. NicoRosbergFan, your education is clearly such that no one else on this Jeff Gordon Fan Site can possibly argue you, and we definitely aren't intelligent enough to be sarcastic. When you insult me this time, will you use a line from Happy Gilmore, instead of Billy Madison? 1609. The Long Shot posted: 09.13.2013 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm fairly sure that wasn't Baker." Obviously not. I was making a joke. No offense was intended. "Seriously, TLS? I've talked with people almost 1/3 third your age who are more mature than you are." Have I acted immaturely before on this board? Yes, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I think everyone on here has acted immaturely at some point or another (except for cjs). If you would just quit insulting people, NRF, things would be a whole lot better on this board. Unfortunately, you can't seem to shake the habit. 1610. Sky Warrior posted: 09.13.2013 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (10) (0) Bro Jackson, NRF, go away. Please. Neither of you offer anything positive to this community anymore, go have your little baby fights on some other website. Now, in actual racing discussion, I make the following point: Prior to Clint Menard's deliberate spin that set this whole cheating scandal in motion, Jeff Gordon was in the Chase, Ryan Newman had (un)officially clinched a wild card, Joey Logano held that wild card for a handful of laps more, and Martin Truex wasn't in the Chase. Now, Jeff Gordon is in, Ryan Newman is in, Joey Logano is in (who's to say Newman wouldn't have a problem while leading? - It's happened before, like Charlotte 07), and Martin Truex is out. Everything is as it should be, no one can deny this. NASCAR had some tough decisions to make, but without MWR they never would have been put in that box in the first place. 1611. David posted: 09.13.2013 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Have I acted immaturely before on this board? Yes, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I think everyone on here has acted immaturely at some point or another" Satire battles, The Great HTML Incident of 2013, etc. 1612. John Royal posted: 09.14.2013 - 5:22 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I still don't get how Bowyer got out of this. The thing is he was the single biggest crook in Richmond. It doesn't matter what crew chiefs babble to the radio, it was eventually Bowyer that made the last decision. And as a DRIVER, he 'oughta know best to not to do that. I hate that there is 13 drivers in chase, as there only should be 12. Bowyer get the hell out of there. 1613. Daniel posted: 09.14.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Right as you are I also think kick out pinnochio bowyer and logano out too that makes only 11 and I like your idea of there should be 12 so in the standings McMurray gets in! 1614. Anthony posted: 09.14.2013 - 8:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Only 4x McMurray has come close to being in the chase all of them while driving for Chip Gannasi he also did win for Roush back when he drove the #26 car but never look near into the chase. To tell you the truth Jamie McMurray I'm surprise he never won in the #42 Havoline Dodge in fact he was so close just to imagine how tough it is to win in this series. And he should've been in the chase in 2010 even though he won 3 races (Also for Kyle Busch in 2009 with 4 wins) and I think that's what led to the wild card system today. Well that's it for this web page off to the other side where Jeff Gordon is now in the chase. 1615. Daniel posted: 09.15.2013 - 1:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) boohooboohoo another clear point that brings up the past that is okay though we are free in America Go Gordon! 1616. b4il3y posted: 09.19.2013 - 6:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And on a related note, NAPA will not be back next year for MWR. 1617. Daniel posted: 10.09.2013 - 8:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Western Auto and NAPA did good while they lasted Thank you Go Gordon! 1618. Ed posted: 10.22.2013 - 10:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So before each season I go through and pick a driver who I think will win every race, and this year, after Richmond, drivers I picked had scored 846 points, which would have given me the regular season title and placed me T-6 in the Chase (1 win, 11 top 5s, 15 top 10s) 1619. Edwards99 posted: 12.30.2013 - 7:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards finally wins at Richmond :)! He may not have deserved this particular Richmond race, however he definitely deserved to win a Richmond race after making mistakes while dominating in 2012 and after having possibly the fastest car in the spring race here. 1620. b4il3y posted: 04.24.2014 - 3:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1620. Inform the men. 1621. Bob posted: 08.29.2014 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Most BS race of all time. 1622. Bob posted: 08.29.2014 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) this race was total bs 1623. JasonB2472 posted: 09.13.2014 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Something worth noting: This race would also be Mark Martin's final career top-10 finish. 1624. mister83 posted: 07.09.2015 - 2:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The part about this finish that I find most appalling is the fact that Cheat Bowyer in his post race interview tried to blame his spin, first on a flat tire, and then on Junior??? Idiot couldn't even keep his story straight, let alone look the reporter in the eye. That piece of scum along with his owner lost every ounce of respect I may have ever had for them that night. 1625. JG24ChasElliottFan posted: 09.18.2016 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) There are some races that happen that mark a change in NASCAR (like the 2001 Daytona 500 and 2003 Ford 400), and I think this one is one of them. The Spingate controversy marked the beginning of the end of MWR, which led to Truex and NAPA leaving the team, which in turn gave Chase Elliott the opportunity to come to Cup and Truex to elevate his career to another level. The controversy also had a big impact on the points system with how we have the "win and you're in" Chase. Plus, had the controversy not happened, who knows who would be replacing Tony Stewart next season, and where David Ragan and Brett Moffitt would be with their respective careers. Direct changes aside, the races did have a slightly different feel to them in 2014 and I think that was validated by some of the direct changes that have followed (two broadcast partners and Sprint not renewing, Gordon and Stewart retiring, JGR and Penske becoming more dominant) 1626. chevyfan98 posted: 09.18.2016 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I honestly don't think Moffitt's career would be any different. Remember MWR pretty much dumped him last year in favor of David Ragan. Ragan on the other hand, might still be with MWR, might not. Depends on if they brought Vickers back this year and how long he would stay healthy. But I agree. This race, other than the 2001 Daytona 500, probably will end up having the biggest lasting impact on NASCAR history of any race in this century (so far). 1627. Maverick19 posted: 05.27.2017 - 7:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Even though Brian wasn't eligible for Cup points, shouldn't he still have a -50 next to him? After all, the final season results say that he finished 78th in points with -50 points... 1628. chevyfan98 posted: 05.28.2017 - 7:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Or in other words, every person in the universe finished the 2013 season with more cup series points than Brian Vickers. 1629. chevyfan98 posted: 08.03.2017 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 101: "I just wish there was a way Kurt Busch, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Martin Truex, and Brad Keselowski could all make the Chase. I want to see all of them in it. But such is life." Replace a few of the drivers here and this comment is prophetic. 1630. RaceFanX posted: 01.02.2019 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DC Driver: Regan Smith- #48 Lowe's / Kobalt Tools Chevrolet owned by Rick Hendrick Smith practiced and qualified Jimmie Johnson's #48 Chevrolet so Johnson could be with his wife Chandra as their daughter Lydia was born the day before this race. Lydia was the Johnson's second child, being born three years after their first daughter Genevieve. 1631. JG24Ever posted: 08.05.2019 - 2:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) As we near the end of the 2010s, this race is likely going to go down as the defining race of this decade and marks a turning point for NASCAR. This was the race that led to the advent of the elimination/win-and-you're-in Playoff format in 2014 and the downfall of MWR, which led to things such as the charter system, Martin Truex Jr and Chase Elliott's rise to Cup success, and a lot of other moving parts and pieces. The way they handled Spingate, especially with adding Jeff Gordon as a 13th driver, also hurt the sport's credibility. I think penalizing MWR and removing MTJ from the Chase was a fair move, but that's it. Bowyer should've started the Chase with the 50-point deficit since the 50 point penalty to the regular season total did nothing. Additionally, Penske Racing should've been penalized with points, as well as money, for their dealings with Front Row Motorsports. A 50-point penalty for both Logano and Keselowski would've been fair, given what NASCAR did for MWR. It would've reset everything back to how it was before the caution flew for Bowyer's spin, which led to the Penske/Front Row deal-making, to where Gordon was in over Logano, and Newman was in over Truex (which was done with the MWR penalty). From there, they should've gotten rid of the Chase after 2013. Adding more gimmicks to the Chase only hurt the sport for the next three seasons and getting rid of the Chase would've been seen as a return to form by old fans who were starting to come back in 2010-2013, when the sport was stabilizing. Had everything but the Chase being around stayed the same in 2014, too, we would've gotten a Gordon/Jr/Logano/Keselowski championship battle, which would've been great for ratings. This race is very defining for the 2010s and marks the point where NASCAR went from stabilizing after the boom to declining again and putting the sport in a grave(r) state. I'm happy that NASCAR's finding its footing after a few years of gimmicks and decline, but I feel like it could've come sooner had things been handled better following this race. 1632. RyanM posted: 08.05.2019 - 8:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) In addition, with the downfall of MWR as well as many less-funded teams that were destroyed by the higher costs and the charter system, we're now in the most uncompetitive era since the 80s. 2013 had 17 different winners from nine different teams. Now we usually only get around 12 different winners in a season and there aren't enough competitive cars on the grid for still capable veterans who don't bring money such as Matt Kenseth to have rides. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: