|| *Comments on the 2013 AAA 400:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. Aaron posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) All right! Dale Earnhardt Jr. wins the pole. It's his first multi-pole season since he joined Hendrick Motorsports in 2008. A good start to the weekend. 2. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. wins multiple poles in a season for the first time since 2002(interestingly none of his 19 wins have come from the pole). Matt continues his blistering pace qualifying alongside Jr., and most importantly ahead of his closest championship rivals. 3. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Both of Jr.'s poles this season have set track records at Kentucky and Dover. Great start to the weekend for me! 4. Schroeder51 posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt Kenseth is starting second. If his engine holds up unlike the June race here, there's an extremely good chance of him winning three in a row. 5. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) Wow, Kenseth qualifies 2nd. I'd feel a lot better about his title hopes if he didn't have those TuRD engines. 8 more races with no mechanical issues plus the general racing chaos that can strike anytime? That is a lot of variables. 6. Schroeder51 posted: 09.27.2013 - 4:59 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) And I'm seriously dumbfounded by 5-Hour Energy choosing to stand by Clint Bowyer and Michael Waltrip Racing. Basically, the only one who's come out of this whole scandal with any significant punishment is Martin Truex, Jr. He's been booted out of the Chase, has had his sponsorship pull their support of him, and could possibly lose his ride at the end of the year-and all he did was race hard and hold onto his position. Meanwhile, Bowyer gets a meaningless 50-point penalty which only affects his PRE-CHASE points, gets to keep his spot in the Chase and could still get a good finish in the points, and gets to keep his sponsorship for next year. Truex loses everything for doing nothing wrong on his own while Bowyer causes the whole scandalous mess and loses virtually nothing. Justice? What's that? 7. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I agree that isn't not fair that Truex is getting punished than Bowyer is. I think what 5 Hour Energy is showing the message that they really don't care what their driver pulls or the integrity of the sport being questioned due to what the driver they are sponsoring did. Like I mentioned on the Loudon race cup page, I am not going to protest 5 Hour Energy since I don't drink energy drinks to begin with. 8. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (4) (2) Its simply been decided by the worst human being who owns Cup cars, NASCAR, The Ripple Effect, and everyone involved with The Ripple Effect that Martin Truex is gonna be the whipping boy in all of this. Michael and Clint covered their asses and hung Martin out to dry. But that is ok. Hopefully NAPA and Martin go to a 4th JGR team and a two car MWR team (with a Rodney Childers-less Brian Vickers being one of the drivers) becomes mid packers again. 9. murb posted: 09.27.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Hopefully Bowyer will be served some karma by getting every TuRD dud motor for the rest of the Chase. 10. cjs3872 posted: 09.27.2013 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) DSFF, the worst human currently (which I don't believe anyway), or the worst ever? I hope you don't mean the worst ever, because there are quite a number of those that were worse than Michael Waltrip, including but certainly not limited to Carl Kiekhafer, Rod Osterlund, Jim Stacy, Bobby Ginn, J.T. Lundy (who co-owned Harry Ranier's team from 1984-'88), and the Gardner Brothers (from DiGard Racing), who nobody who drove for them liked. A number of those guys were far worse than Michael Waltrip. Heck, three of those I just named won championships at NASCAR's highest level, but none of them were good people in the sport. Michael may be self-serving, but I don't think he's as bad as is being said, and he's certainly not nearly as bad as those guys were. 11. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Anyone here play Grand Theft Auto 5. 12. Kenny posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) JR ON HE POLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hears hoping he can get a win this sunday 13. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Benjamin Lowe, No I don't play Grand Theft Auto 5 and I never cared for the Grand Theft Auto games. I am really not into modern games and I really am looking at not getting a WIIU,Xbox one, and a Playstation 4. I am an old school gamer that played games like Q*bert, and Pole Position 2 in the arcades as a kid. I also played Simpsons: The Arcade, and Virtua Fighter as examples of arcade games that I played when I was a teenager. 14. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) At Post 13: I don't like your opinion regarding the GTA Series but I do respect you for giving your thoughts on the series though. 15. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Matt Kenseth looks to win 3 in a row, no Gibbs driver has won 3-in-a-row and a non-Hendrick driver has not 3-in-a-row since Mark Martin in 93.Rusty may have done 3-in-a-row in the 93-94 range also. I really believe if Kenseth avoids an engine failure then he will win the championship. 16. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kubica fan Ireland, Rusty won 3 in a row in 1993 and 1994. To me, Matt being the first cup driver over the age of 40 to win 3 races in a row is a bigger deal since Harry Gant was the last driver to do that when Harry Gant won 4 in a row in 1991. 17. murb posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:47 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) I've been playing the hell out of GTA 5, Ben. It's awesome. 18. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Worst currently. Carl K is the worst ever. 19. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) AS a lot of people have mentioned Kenseth is the first driver over 40 to win 7 races in a season since 1997. This pretty much means that Johnson has zero chance of reaching 3 figures in wins. He will turn 40 threequarters of the way through the 2015 season, his fourteenth and he basically needs a 10 win season in either 2014 or 2015 and even then he will probably struggle to catch Gordon. I see Johnson getting 75-80 wins, note Knaus is only signed to be his crew chief through 2014, so even with the best scenario he will need 20-25 wins with a new crew chief. I see Kenseth running Bill Elliot and Masrk Martin close on wins. 20. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I meant to type in post 16 is "To me, if Matt becomes the first cup driver over the age of 40 to win 3 races in a row is a bigger deal than a Non Hendrick Car winning 3 in a row since Harry Gant was the last cup driver over the age of 40 to win at least 3 races in a row. 21. joey2448 posted: 09.27.2013 - 6:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, the further into this weekend we go, the less it looks like JJ is gonna dominate like he usually does here. He was only 13th in first practice and qualified decent in eighth, but of course that could change come Sunday. I'm still biting my tongue. Cjs3872 has it right in post #10. All those car owners were terrible at what did. I mean, yeah, some of them won championships, but they really had no interest in their drivers or how to treat them right, and had no interest in the health of the sport. They were there just to profit off others. Jamie Mac, man, he's gotten his shit together late in the year here. After last week's impressive run in the top-5 after crashing early, he qualifies seventh here! Pretty good. 22. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.27.2013 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey if Johnson doesn't beat the Gibbs drivers here then he may end up relying on their motors blowing to win the championship. Don't rule out Edwards, I know he was bad here first time round but he is rock solid at Dover and if he can avoid finishes outside the top15 he may come into it later in the chase. 23. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 7:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Kubica fan Ireland, Cup Drivers are able to win 20 to 30 cup wins after they turn 40. There is a lot to you of stuff that a driver need to do that though. Jeff Gordon slowed because of the Gen 5 car and also Jeff's past injuries. What slows a driver down in injuries, bad equipment, and driver being owner/driver. What is happening to Stewart next year is something to watch since he's coming back from a major injury. A rule of thumb for a cup driver is they really slow down when they turn 46 years old. Lee Petty and Richard Petty are the only drivers to win more than 1 race a season when they were 46 years old. I am saying that because Mark Martin and Harry Gant are the only cup drivers to win 5 races in a season when they were 47 years old or older. There is no cup driver at the age 47,48 or 49 that has won 5 cup races at the ages I mentioned. The oldest drivers to win a cup championship is Bobby Allison and Lee Petty. Bobby Allison was almost 46 years old when he won the 1983 championship. Lee was 45 when he won his 1959 cup championship. 24. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 7:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Kubica fan Ireland, I think it possible for Matt Kenseth to catch Buck Baker or Herb Thomas in wins. Matt has no major injuries and is in great equipment without any management problems Bobby Allison had to face with GiGard. Matt right now appears to be turning into Bobby Allison was from 1978 to 1983. Bobby Allison from 1978 to 1983 won a total of 33 cup races. Bobby was 40 years old to 45 years old in that time frame. Bobby Allison won at least 5 races in 4 out of the 5 seasons I mentioned. 25. jabber1990 posted: 09.27.2013 - 7:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "worst person ever" well Hitler was pretty bad 26. Eric posted: 09.27.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) jabber1990, Hitler wasn't a NASCAR owner. That means he's not the worst person as a NASCAR owner unless you are counting the Hitler Parody on Youtube that has Hitler upset for no one wanting to sponsor his race team or the Parody that he gets banned from NASCAR. 27. DB1995 posted: 09.27.2013 - 9:10 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Brad Keselowskis Texas chase car from last year just sold for half a million dollars at barrett jackson! 28. anonymous posted: 09.27.2013 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's a new track record! Sorry 83andJoe! 29. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.27.2013 - 10:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Interesting to see old Carl Kiekhaefer mentioned here...yeah the guy was pretty bad all around. He had two different champion drivers he frequently butted heads with, quit the sport in disgust, then just to spite Big Bill, came back on a partial schedule for a year. As bad as he was, he still did some important things for NASCAR. Being that he owned Wisconsin based Mercury Marine (then Mercury Outboard), he was able to bring NASCAR a little northern exposure. On top of that, he was the first non-automotive major national sponsor. He pioneered the team ideas we know now: He had a crew that painted and detailed the cars at a shop. The cars came in what we'd know now as haulers (sort of...to be fair, he used box tractor-trailers but they weren't as specialized as they are now). The drivers and crew wore uniforms. They tested oil, they used air filters and the success of his team HELPED (but wasn't fully responsible for) the popularity of Chrysler 300s. Not that Kiekhaefer was a good guy, that's been well documented; I wonder if a big part of the problem people had with them was that he was a hard headed, big mouth Yankee in a then a truly southern sport. 30. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.27.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "came back on a partial schedule for a year." Sorry...Wait no, he intended to, then backed off. He was looking at entering the road courses in 1957, but changed his mind IIRC. 31. The Long Shot posted: 09.27.2013 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interesting that you guys should mention the worst people in the history of NASCAR, as in the world of MLB, Bud Selig has announced that he will retire as commissioner of baseball after the 2014 season. I don't follow baseball that much, but I know enough to say that Selig was very likely the worst commissioner in baseball's history. 32. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.27.2013 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Best Carl K story: he saw somebody just standing around his shop one day, flew into a foul mouthed rage (as he often did) accusing him of milking the clock and fired him on the spot. He then asked the guy what his salary was. The guy told Carl his salary, so Carl ran back to his office, gave him his severance pay and told him never to come back. The delivery guy happily took the money and left the shop, and probably laughed his ass off. Carl K story that isn't so good but luckily didn't have a bad ending: a young Bobby Allison who was a mechanic for Carl went to Wisconsin to test some of his boat motors, flipped the boat in fridgid water, and by the grace of God didn't succumb to hypothermia. He somehow made it out of the lake. Are we sire Bobby isn't The Unbreakable Man? He survived that Pocono wreck, the '87 Winston 500 wreck, a none crunching IROC wreck, a bone crunching USAC stock car wreck, raced and tested at Indianapolis during what was probably their most dangerous era, the early to mid 70s (cjs can provide much better detail about this than I can) and also survived the Disco era and the New Coke. 33. RaceFanX posted: 09.28.2013 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I see you also read "He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back" DSFF. Great book, anyone reading this post should buy a copy from your local Barnes and Noble if you get the chance (or Amazon but brick-and-motar stores are better). 34. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2013 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In fact DSFF, Bobby Allison qualified for and raced (briefly) in the infamous 1973 Indianapolis 500 (he dropped out after completing just one lap with a broken connecting rod bolt, something that sidelined about six or seven other cars that day, prompting Chris Economaki to question whether any cars would be running had the race gone the full 500 miles), and was signed to run there again for Penske in 1974, but that experience was so traumatic for him and his wife Judy that Judy told Penske that she didn't want not se Bobby run at Indy again, so Penske ripped the contract. Had that not happened, Bobby might have had a car that could have won, as it might have been him in the #68 car after Peter Revson had been killed in South Africa and not Mike Hiss, who qualified on the front row for the 1974 race, but was never a factor. Bobby Allison definitely would have been had he been in that car. Of course, Bobby did return in 1975 and ran well enough to lead during the first series of pit stops (which he took a lot of pride in) and was running about sixth or seventh when gearbox failure knocked him out of the race not long before Tom Sneva, his Indy teammate that year, had his horrible crash. Incidentally, Bobby's brother Donnie also drove at Indy twice for A.J. Foyt, finishing fourth in 1970 and sixth in 1971. But Cale Yarborough's runs at Indy were disastrous, except for a 10th place finish in1 972, when he had to survive three bump attempts by the same driver, Wally Dallenbach. Dallenbach was in the race anyway when Andy Granatelli chose him to replace Art Pollard, who was injured in a practice crash after qualifying for the race. (And his car caught fire on every pit stop it made, probably a residual affect from Pollard's practice crash.) And as bad as Cale's runs at Indy were, LeeRoy Yarbrough's were even worse, including being involved in two incidents in the 1967 race, including one with Parneli Jones' turbine car. Goes to show you how versatile the Allisons really were as drivers, and I think Davey could have done nearly as well if he had lived and been given the chance to drive an IndyCar there. 35. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2013 - 12:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I thought he was in that '73 Indy 500. In reading the book about him and the Alabama Gang, Miracle (an outstanding read, and I also read He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back as mentioned earlier, an outstanding account of the pivitol 1979 Winston Cup season) that Bobby's wife Judy was sitting right in front of the spot where that crewman was fatally struck by a fire truck. 36. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2013 - 5:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not only that DSFF, but Bobby and Judy Allison had gotten to know Swede Savage from Savage's NASCAR starts with Holman-Moody (who Bobby had driven for twice) and the Wood Brothers in the late 60s. But that whole month was a disaster, and not just at Indy. There was also that horrendous crash at Talladega that Bobby, as well as Cale Yarborough, Buddy Baker, and even eventual Indy winner Gordon Johncock were a part of (Johncock drove Hoss Ellington's Lemon Tree Chevrolet in that race), all the rain and tragedy at Indy that month, and not even the World 600 in Charlotte was spared from rain and serious crashes, as Peter Gregg and Vic Parsons both had serious crashes, with Gregg's coming in the final race for the #6 Cotton Owens Dodge, and that race even had a rain delay of about 90 minutes just past the halfway mark before running to it's conclusion with Buddy Baker winning, becoming that race's first back-to-back and 3-time winner. 37. David posted: 09.28.2013 - 7:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Miracle (an outstanding read, and I also read He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back" Having read them both, I agree with you wholeheartedly. They are terrific reads, and I highly recommend both to everyone on the site. I've checked out "He Crashed Me So I Crashed Him Back" so many times, they could just give me the book and no one would notice it was missing. As for "Miracle", I bought that at a Barnes & Noble. "Are we sure Bobby isn't The Unbreakable Man?" He /is/ the Unbreakable Man. How about that crash at Elko in 1976 that practically broke half the bones in his body and left his eye hanging out of his socket? And he didn't miss a single Cup race. Ricky Rudd - Iron Man Dale Earnhardt - Man of Steel/Ironhead Bobby Allison - Man of Tungsten 38. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.28.2013 - 10:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Ricky Rudd - Iron Man Dale Earnhardt - Man of Steel/Ironhead Bobby Allison - Man of Tungsten " Nah, Ricky Rudd - Superman (guy WON with his eyes taped open) Dale Earnhardt- Man of Steel Bobby Allison- Man of Tungsten 39. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.28.2013 - 12:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Seven-time Indianapolis 500-winning cheif mechanic George Bignotti passed away yesterday at the age of 97. 40. David posted: 09.28.2013 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Ricky Rudd - Superman (guy WON with his eyes taped open)" "Of course Ricky is the exception! He is the toughest son of a b*tch to ever set wheel on the track!" 41. numbah48n10hatah posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Epic speed by Tony Raines. 42. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Of course Ricky is the exception! He is the toughest son of a b*tch to ever set wheel on the track!" I'm proud of that quote. It's turned into one of the best quotes to ever be said on this site. Correction: George Bignotti was 95 years old. Regardless, we have lost one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, engineers to ever tune an IndyCar, and definitely one of the greatest mechanics in all of racing, kind of like the George Halas of IndyCar. Seen lots of interviews with him during old Indy 500s and he looked old THEN. 43. Sean posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tony Kanaan is about to ink a deal to drive Ganassi's 4th IndyCar so he won't be doing any Nationwide racing. Jenna Fryer just reported this yesterday and Robin Miller is really pissed because he had the information weeks ago and was waiting to share it so as not to betray any confidences. He wrote a long, whiny rant on Racer about this, but Miller has always been like this I guess. He breaks lots of news stories, writes great historical IndyCar articles, and is good at predicting what will happen in general, but can never seem to keep his annoying and often poorly-researched commentary out of it. Oh well, you still get the sense he cares, which is more than can be said for the majority of the modern racing press. It had been rumored that Ganassi was looking to decide between Kanaan, Hinchcliffe, and Ryan Briscoe (why oh why oh WHY...) Hinchtown might be in some trouble now because GoDaddy is leaving as his title sponsor since IndyCar's ratings are too low for them, but Michael Andretti seems to be better at attracting sponsors for IndyCar than even Penske or Ganassi are. Briscoe is expected to be to going to Panther even though Oriol Servia's been outperforming him... Would have rather seen Justin Wilson than Tony Kanaan. The Penske/Ganassi drivers are getting too old and I want to see fresher blood. Castroneves, Franchitti, and Kanaan can't have too many good years left. It's goofy to say that since that includes the last 2 500 winners and this year's probable champion, but still, none of them seem to be weekly threats. Castroneves is just doing the Matt Crafton thing and finishing 6th-10th every week without really fighting for wins (except that one Texas race he dominated out of nowhere). Having said that, even though I'm oh so sick of Helio he is just as overdue for a championship as Kanaan was a 500 win, and I guess it would be fitting if the best buds completed their career accomplishments in the same season... 44. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tony Kanaan is about to ink a deal to drive Ganassi's 4th IndyCar so he won't be doing any Nationwide racing. Jenna Fryer just reported this yesterday and Robin Miller is really pissed because he had the information weeks ago and was waiting to share it so as not to betray any confidences. He wrote a long, whiny rant on Racer about this, but Miller has always been like this I guess. He breaks lots of news stories, writes great historical IndyCar articles, and is good at predicting what will happen in general, but can never seem to keep his annoying and often poorly-researched commentary out of it. Oh well, you still get the sense he cares, which is more than can be said for the majority of the modern racing press." I hate that people complain that Miller is whiny when if Miller had broken it first there would have been columns all over the nation shedding tears. He straight out helps you understand the frustrations of his job and how it's worth missing out on having the scoop so as to honor your friends. Fortunately, 9999 times out of 10000 his "annoying and often poorly-researched commentary" turns out to be prophetic, so... 45. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hendrick could a 1-2-3 this weekend, and Johnson loks the weakest at this stage. 46. Sean posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey, NRF, I LIKE Robin Miller but you can't deny he is annoying. Less annoying than almost anybody on NASCAR broadcasts these days, sure... Poorly-researched - I was mostly talking about him claiming NASCAR fixed races BEFORE NASCAR's manipulation in my opinion really began in a big way... 47. Sean posted: 09.28.2013 - 1:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And I did say his predictions are usually right. I just wish he'd leave his self-aggrandizing commentary out of it, but he is nowhere near as self-aggrandizing as the Waltrip brothers are, soooooo... 48. Daniel posted: 09.28.2013 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go Gordon! 49. Sean posted: 09.28.2013 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Also on Racer today, the magazine's founder Paul Pfanner wrote what I think is the best racing-related post on any site I've ever seen in response to Larry Gurthet that addressed the history of sports car racing, IndyCar, NASCAR, his belief in NASCAR's loss of integrity, and many other things in a post shorter than many of mine. His article about the movie "Rush" and how it might boost Formula One's popularity in the United States was okay, but his comment was AMAZING, even if there are a few things I disagree with. You've all GOT to read this. http://www.racer.com/opinion-can-rush-bring-sexy-back-to-road-racing-in-north-america/article/313764/ 50. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.28.2013 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) OK, now THAT's a valid argument against Miller, but still one of the most thorough guys in the business. Great article about Rush. 51. 83andJoe posted: 09.28.2013 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, apparently the reason Penske is letting Sam Hornish go after this season - completely, not just not giving him a Cup ride - is because they don't have the funding to run two full-time-for-the-championship Nationwide cars and they want to move up Ryan Blaney. 52. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.28.2013 - 2:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Jeff Gordon is Wonderboy. Zing! 53. cjs3872 posted: 09.28.2013 - 3:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That's sad to hear, NicoRosbergFan. While many marvel at the feats of modern-era crew chiefs such as Ray Evernham, Chad Knaus, Jimmy Fennig, and I'll even throw Buddy Parrott and Kirk Shelmerdine into this, in the history of the sport, there are three crew chiefs/chief mechanics that tower over all the others. They are, in no particular order, Dale Inman, Leonard Wood, and George Bignotti. Inman won nearly 200 races, 5 Daytona 500s (Lee Petty was the crew chief for his son's first two), and 8 championships as a crew chief, Leonard Wood won nearly 100 NASCAR races, including 4 Daytona 500s, and the sport's triple Crown with David Pearson in 1976, not to mention masterminding the strategy of not changing tires in both the 1963 Daytona 500 and 1965 Indianapolis 500, and George Bignotti won countless races, 8 championships, and 7 Indianapolis 500s with numerous drivers. He won Indy with A.J. Foyt, Al Unser, Graham Hill, Gordon Johncock, and Tom Sneva, and also won the championship with Joe Leonard, as well as Foyt, Unser, and Johncock. And Bignotti won those Indy races from the roadster era all the way through to the era of ground effects. His first two Indy wins (with A.J. Foyt) came with roadsters, the third was with a rookie (Graham Hill) in the height of the rear-engine revolution, wins four and five (with Al Unser) came as aerodynamics was beginning to enter the sport, win #6 came in 1973 with Gordon Johncock when they ran the huge front and rear wings, and win #7 (in 1983 with Tom Sneva) came a full decade later with ground effects cars, and even after that, he was second the following year with Robert Guerrero, as they teamed up for three years, and finished second, third, and fourth, with Guerrero completing all but two laps at Indy. With all the talk about who the top crew chiefs are, there are three across the history of the sport that easily outrank all the others, and they are Dale Inman, George Bignotti, and Leonard Wood. All other crew chiefs in the history of the sport rank beneath them, as those three are on a level by themselves. 54. numbah48n10hatah posted: 09.28.2013 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I GUARENTEE that the pole winner will not win the race. 55. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.29.2013 - 12:38 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Haven't been here since last evening and there's a few things I want to say. One more funny Carl K thing I've heard: He'd fire employees, then call them to reprimand them for missing work...and probably fire them again. Reminds me of Monty Burns and Homer from "The Simpsons". That article about "Rush" and American Road Racing was great, yes. "Rush" will probably bring some folks into F1 fandom. What would really do it? A SUCCESSFUL American driver (sorry Scott Speed). NBC, in my opinion, has done a good job broadcasting F1 so far. I like that they showed Monaco and Canada and will show Austin and Brazil on network (free) tv. Sure, Austin and Brazil will be up against NFL football, but I'm glad to see they're not treating F1 as "filler" material they way FOX did from 2010-12. In other words, it seems like FOX showed the June and July races so they had something to go between the NASCAR switch to TNT and the beginning of NFL preseason and/or MLB coverage. Canada was always during that time, but I don't think many "casual" fans cared about a tape delay of Silverstone or Germany. I feel that NBC and other motorsports media in the US can find a way to draw those new F1 viewers to Indy Cars and maybe our new USCR series. "Miracle" is a great book. Read it some time ago when it came out. I will look for Bobby Allison's other book you all mentioned. 56. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man I'm so anxious to see "Rush" but no theatres near me are showing it!!! I hear it's good, even from my non-racing friends, but the nearest theatre that is showing it is a 3-hour drive from where I live. Gah! 57. Ched Little posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:40 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Sheesh! Even 1951, 1953, 1964, and 1981 were better title defenses than this joke! 58. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 11:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) On the topic of "Rush", it is a quite good movie, better than what I expected, but the problem is that I know the seasons 74-76 by heart and it can show nothing new for me. Hard to enjoy a movie when you already know the plot AND the ending. The thing I hate is it shows Lauda driving rough and going off track to overtake, it is everything he was not. But the leading actors, especially Brühl (Lauda), are brilliant. 59. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 11:57 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I definitely want to see Rush, but I haven't had the chance to yet. Probably within the next few weekends. What I'm definitely looking forward to is the F1 2013 video game. I can't wait to drive Nigel Mansell's 1992 Williams and Michael Schumacher's 1999 Ferrari around Imola. The gear head in me wants to hear those cool-sounding V10s and V12s. 60. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.29.2013 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Has anyone else noticed how the comments on the Loudon were well down on previous races, I wonder if that is the NFL effect. 61. JJ48FanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:30 pm Rate this comment: (4) (3) Stats of the week (as of Loudon): Seasons outside the top 6 in points Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 9 Seasons with less than 2 wins: Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 5 Seasons with less than 600 laps led: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 7 Seasons with 8-digit earnings: Jimmie Johnson: 6 Jeff Gordon: 2 Seasons with an average finish worse than 14th: Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 6 Most consecutive championships: Jimmie Johnson: 5 Jeff Gordon: 2 Missed Chases: Jeff Gordon: 1.5 Jimmie Johnson: 0 Dover wins: Jimmie Johnson: 7 Jeff Gordon: 4 Dover Average Finish: Jimmie Johnson: 9.0 Jeff Gordon: 11.8 Dover Laps Led: Jeff Gordon: 2292 (41 starts) Jimmie Johnson: 2461 (23 starts) Times co-hosting Live with Kelly and Michael: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 0 Times appearing on Colbert Report: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 0 Car Number: Jimmie Johnson: 48 Jeff Gordon: 24 Letters in Name: Jimmie Johnson: 13 Jeff Gordon: 10 Spanishness of Birth City Name: Jimmie Johnson (El Cajon): 100% Jeff Gordon (Vallejo): 100% 62. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) My road to NASCAR by Dale Jr: "I wasn't winning much in late models so I wasn't setting myself up for my "break". But my Dad is Dale Earnhardt so I got the best equipment anyways. I never thought I could accomplish what I have, if you would have told me I could go to THE team in NASCAR and win twice in six seasons, I wouldn't have believed you". 63. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Love post @ 61 64. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 61. JJ48FanForever posted: Stats of the week (as of Loudon): Seasons outside the top 6 in points Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 9 Seasons with less than 2 wins: Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 5 Seasons with less than 600 laps led: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 7 Seasons with 8-digit earnings: Jimmie Johnson: 6 Jeff Gordon: 2 Seasons with an average finish worse than 14th: Jimmie Johnson: 0 Jeff Gordon: 6 Most consecutive championships: Jimmie Johnson: 5 Jeff Gordon: 2 Missed Chases: Jeff Gordon: 1.5 Jimmie Johnson: 0 Dover wins: Jimmie Johnson: 7 Jeff Gordon: 4 Dover Average Finish: Jimmie Johnson: 9.0 Jeff Gordon: 11.8 Dover Laps Led: Jeff Gordon: 2292 (41 starts) Jimmie Johnson: 2461 (23 starts) Times co-hosting Live with Kelly and Michael: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 0 Times appearing on Colbert Report: Jimmie Johnson: 1 Jeff Gordon: 0 Car Number: Jimmie Johnson: 48 Jeff Gordon: 24 Letters in Name: Jimmie Johnson: 13 Jeff Gordon: 10 Spanishness of Birth City Name: Jimmie Johnson (El Cajon): 100% Jeff Gordon (Vallejo): 100% You forgot the important ones. Wins in FIVE HUNDRED MILE (non-hack) races at Dover: Jeff Gordon: 3 Jimmie Johnson: 0 Times caught cheating: Jimmie Johnson: 60-80 times (rough estimate) Jeff Gordon: 10-12 65. David posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Love post @ 61" You would. :) 66. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 1:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty gutless to steal JG24FF's name because of your narrow-mindedness. Shows how much Hendrick kool-aid we've all drunk. 67. startandparkfan posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good run for Almirola, would love to see him win one of these. 68. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Green flag set to fly at 2:15 and no chance of rain raining (haha) on the aeropush parade. So, who will lead the most laps before throwing away a certain win this time? Shrub? Jimmie? Someone else? Any takers? 69. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch has already passed 7 cars in 3 laps. At this rate, he'll be leading in no time. 70. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 27 laps. She is getting even worse! 71. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, those lapped cars are like moving chicanes. And between them all Danica may be the worst! 72. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:35 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) And getting passed by Dave Blaney and Michael McDowell as well, in low budget equipment. So, when is BoB going to actually start improving like everyone says she will? So far, I've seen no signs of improvement out of her. 73. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Debris caution already. Ugh. 74. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution flag is out for debris. Real debris, for once. 75. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually McDowell's #98 is one of the faster cars in the back portion of the field, but the team parks it most races. Not a surprise that he passes BoB. 76. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch to the lead after a two-tire pit stop. 77. Mr X posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Pretty shocking to see Dale Jr this competitive. 78. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ryan Newman goes to the lead. Those two tires for Kyle Busch aren't going to work out in the long run... 79. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr looks to have the car to beat so far. Nice to see Newman running well too. 80. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:57 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Two laps down in less than 100 laps. 81. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 2:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Lapped twice in 78 laps with a caution. Jr's car is on rails. 82. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Danica Patrick: The Slowest Driver in Nascar 83. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nap-Time moving fowards? Channel is also moving forwards.... 84. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior has a big four second lead over Johnson. Totally did not expect him to have the car to beat today. 85. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:07 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) They accidentally gave Jr the car Jimmie was supposed to drive. 86. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Damn, the last time I can remember Junior running really well here was back around '03... 87. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) "Danica Patrick: The Slowest Driver in Nascar" I'd be willing to bet you could put Hinchcliffe in that car next week and get better results. 88. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Damn, the last time I can remember Junior running really well here was back around '03..." He did win there in September 2001, but I guess that could be considered a long time ago. 89. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And just like that, Junior misses pit road. 90. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Dale Jr just pulled a Dale Jr. 91. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) And that is why if I were a Dale Jr fan, I would have long ago pulled my hair out. 92. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I'd be willing to bet you could put Hinchcliffe in that car next week and get better results. " AND a better advertisement material. 93. Mr X posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's annoying that seeming at some tracks you only need two tires to the left of the commitment cone, meanwhile at others you need all four, this confusion also came up at Richmond earlier this year if my memory serves me right. 94. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Had a feeling something would happen to knock Junebug out of the lead, the good news is he has enough time to make up for it. 95. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 29 with a vibration, and 2 with a tire rub. As nap time cycles to the lead 96. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's still a long way to go in this race. I wouldn't count him out just yet... 97. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:20 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Matt Kenseth's car today is surely a test for color blindness. 98. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (8) (0) Funny how Jimmie cried, bitched and whined up a storm when Keselowski cut him off coming out of the pits at Chicagoland last year, but yet it is perfectly fine for him to do the same thing to Kenseth a year later. 99. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:24 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) James Hinchcliffe: Winning driver, great personality (good for sponsors) Danica Patrick: Worst driver, rather bland personality... Why is GoDaddy pulling their sponsorship of the first driver??? This is all backwards! 100. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "James Hinchcliffe: Winning driver, great personality (good for sponsors) Danica Patrick: Worst driver, rather bland personality... Why is GoDaddy pulling their sponsorship of the first driver??? This is all backwards!" JH: Actual race car driver (boring) DP: Novelty sideshow attraction (RATINGS!!!!) 101. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why is GoDaddy pulling their sponsorship of the first driver??? This is all backwards!" Because that driver drives in a series with microscopic ratings. Say what you want about Patrick; she knows where the big money is. 102. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't know if this is exclusive to my area (Northeast) or if it was on nationally, but they had a commercial for Dover tickets for next year. The dates for the Cup series are June 1 and September 28. 103. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) They just couldn't stand it. DeBriS caution. 104. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Prediction: All cautions today will be for debris. 105. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I didn't know this, but Kurt Busch has a new pit crew today. Still the same results, it seems. Caution out for debris...good, because Jimmie was consistently 2/10ths faster than Kenseth. 106. Kyle posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Enough with the debris bullshit 107. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Another bullshit debris caution? At least Kenseth beat the #48 off pit road. 108. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ugh, Jay Cutler has thrown three picks today and the Bears trail by three TD's....This is one of those Sunday's that I loathe. And yes, I do have an idea why Hinchcliffe doesn't get the same sponsor deals that Danica does, mostly since he drives in a series that doesn't get any attention, and she is a woman. But still....ugh! 109. Kyle posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The officiating is a joke in this sport. 110. John Royal posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:38 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) God damn NASCAR needs to fix these so called race cars. 111. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I'd be willing to bet you could put Hinchcliffe in that car next week and get better results." I don't doubt that one bit. I think even someone like Michael McDowell or JJ Yeley (you know, the people she's racing against in her top flight HMS machine) would run better than she is. I know she's a Cup rookie, but there's no excuse whatsoever to be 36th, two laps down in Hendrick equipment. 112. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoever gets out front in this race just runs away from everyone. 113. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jamie McMurray is running top ten AGAIN. It's a shame he didn't make the Chase, because if he did I think he could potentially contend for maybe a top seven points finish. Terrible run for AJ Allmendinger though, who usually runs awesome here. 114. JJ48FanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just tuned in, how did Kurt wind up 2 laps down? 115. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt made an unscheduled green flag pit stop just before the most recent caution flag came out. 116. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Just tuned in, how did Kurt wind up 2 laps down?" Had to pit for a loose wheel. 117. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) Oops, looks like I forgot to change my name back after the parody post I made earlier. #114 and #61 were me. 118. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) The 48 and the 88 are the ones to beat. Kenseth needs to focus on getting 3rd today, gaining some on Kyle and minimizing the loss to Jimmie. 119. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Another clean-air fest where anybody that gets up front dominates until they lose track position via pitstops or Dale Jr type mishaps. 120. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks. I was looking at the lap speeds on NASCAR.com and noticed Kurt was still pretty fast so I didn't think he lost the laps just from being slow. 121. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Oops, looks like I forgot to change my name back after the parody post I made earlier. #114 and #61 were me." I surely hope it was supposed to be parodying JG24FanForever or else I dub you "Troll" 122. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BoB: about to be 4 laps down halfway through the race. 123. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, the love affair between the booth bozos and the 48 is hot and heavy today. 124. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Man, the love affair between the booth bozos and the 48 is hot and heavy today. Of course, because then Jimmie would have the record for Dover wins (and not Bobby Allison and Richard Petty). Of course, Bobby won 7 FIVE hundred mile races, or the equivalent of 9 four hundred mile races... Bobby got caught cheating quite a few times, but none at Dover unlike the multiple times Jimmie has been caught cheating in wins here. 125. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I surely hope it was supposed to be parodying JG24FanForever or else I dub you "Troll"" I thought it was pretty obviously parody. He makes up stats just about every week to show Gordon is better than Johnson, so I did the same in reverse just because. 126. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Another clean-air fest where anybody that gets up front dominates until they lose track position via pitstops or Dale Jr type mishaps." I must not be watching the race you're watching. 127. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Drawing a comparison between Kenseth & Yarborough and between Kenseth & Pearson in one sentence. GET OUT! I mean, I like Matt and won't mind him winning the cup, but really? He is not a legend. 128. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) OK, NLA, I'll give you back your points, because it was well thought out. 129. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 3:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Matt is a legend, just not a towering legend like Pearson and Yarborough. I'd put him in the same vein as Terry Labonte. 130. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JG24FanForever doesn't make up stats, he just picks and chooses the numbers he likes to make it look good for Gordon. I mean, you could probably make Danica look better than Jimmie by only using certain statistics. Technically, I guess it would be called propaganda. 131. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When was the last time Denny Hamlin ran in the top-10 after lap 15 of a race? 132. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "OK, NLA, I'll give you back your points, because it was well thought out." Thanks, I was wondering where my points had gone. I thought I saw that Kurt was running fast laptimes earlier, but I was evidently either wrong or the laps I saw were anomalies, because he still hasn't passed Casey Mears and he is now in line to be the next car to go 3 laps down. 133. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, Brad just drove behind the wall. 134. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Keselowski going to the garage. 135. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the caution flag is out. 136. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution for Brad Keselowski going behind the wall? 137. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Worst title defense ever. 138. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR.com says it's for oil from Keselowski's car. 139. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Saw some smoke out of the back. Perhaps the test engine went kaboom. 140. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brad K: Sorry, but this is pathetic. DSFF and Smiff, I send my condolences on your loss. 141. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "JG24FanForever doesn't make up stats, he just picks and chooses the numbers he likes to make it look good for Gordon. I mean, you could probably make Danica look better than Jimmie by only using certain statistics. Technically, I guess it would be called propaganda." That's true, I probably should have instead said "making up statistical categories" since the statistics are based on real data but aren't categories that are officially maintained. 142. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Of course Keselowski is going to be Penske's R&D driver during the Chase considering he can't contend for the championship. 143. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) murb, valid point on Kenseth, but imo he is not yet on the same level as Terry. He needs to perform well for 7-9 more years. I think might become (or will be) a legend is appropriate wording. 144. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jack Roush is waging a war with Toyota... on how many engines they can explode in a season. 145. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:06 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Brad Keselowski's 2013 is the worst title defense in NASCAR history. This season has been beyond frustrating as a fan of his. 146. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'm just shocked at how poor the 2 team has run this year. I saw a hangover coming, but not nearly this bad. 147. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That's just how Brad's season has gone, good run that ends in crappy finish. 148. Jocke Persson posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) #145 maybe he's still hungover 149. DB1995 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rear end problems for Brad, when will this team catch a break?, its like watching Jeff Gordon from earlier this season wondering when he will have some problem 150. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's nice that ESPN does "NASCAR Nonstop" during the second half of races, but I think it would be better if they instead did "Nonstop" during all green flag breaks and just had full-screen commercials during yellow flag breaks. 151. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drivers who have had runs of horrible luck this year: Jeff Gordon, Kasey Kahne, Jamie McMurray, Brad Keselowski 152. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hah, as Todd Bodine fan who watched the 2002 and 2003 seasons, Brad2013 is a lucky guy with few problems :) 153. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Holy crap that was close...Kyle, Matt and Jeff going 3-wide! 154. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth back to 4th a few laps after the restart. 155. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (2) (7) Come on Shrubby! Big money in the fantasy. Anyone else notice Junior got the run to take 2nd on the restart and then promptly started running like shit holding everybody up? 156. AveryNH posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:19 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) You know what would really help Hamlin heal up? Throwing in the towel on this lost season and stepping out of the car. Let Sadler take over. I know it's farfetched but damn, I think 0 top tens since mid June says enough. 157. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Come on Shrubby! Big money in the fantasy." Kyle was also my pick, though I didn't put money on it. I'm not prepared to back down from that prediction yet. "Anyone else notice Junior got the run to take 2nd on the restart and then promptly started running like shit holding everybody up?" I haven't noticed that, but it's probably because he's either the fastest or second fastest car on track most laps. 158. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) lol at me picking Kahne to win this race in my pre-Chase predictions. 159. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "I haven't noticed that, but it's probably because he's either the fastest or second fastest car on track most laps. " On the first lap after the restart, he was the slowest car on the track at 147 flat while Jimmie ran a 151. Nobody has gone that slow since then, and no one has gone that fast since then (expected though). Boy, 20th runs similar lap times to 1st. Aeropush! 160. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hendrick cars are now running 1-2-3. 161. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If we must see an HMS 1-2-3, hopefully Jr or Gordon come out on top. 162. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Really, Brad? Really? Speeding leaving the garage. Worst title defense ever. 163. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Boy, 20th runs similar lap times to 1st. Aeropush!" Lap traffic. 164. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch looks way out of shape. 165. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't like Kyle Busch, but he's probably the only driver in the field who could hold on to that car. 166. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, Kyle even got passed by Brad. He's having big problems right now. 167. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) JAWS! 168. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kyle Busch's car is handling horribly right now. 169. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Will Joon screw up Jimmie's big points day? With the Gibbs cars fading with their handling, will he play good teammate? 170. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) As long as the 48 is in front there won't be any phantom debris cautions. If Junior or Jeff runs him down and passes him, expect the yellow. I know Junior and Jeff are also HMS drivers, but they're not NASCAR's favorite son. 171. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) If I were Dale Jr I'd turn Nap Time into the Wall. 172. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Come on Junebug! Show Android48 what you're made of! 173. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Jr's a good soldier. He won't mess with the A-team. 174. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stops soon 175. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior tries to take the lead just as we are coming up on green flag pit stops. 176. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm betting on a fake caution flying as soon as Gordon comes on pit road. 177. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "murb, valid point on Kenseth, but imo he is not yet on the same level as Terry. He needs to perform well for 7-9 more years." Kenseth is already better than Terry Labonte. He's passed him in wins with several years left. I'd say Roush when Kenseth was there was comparable to the Billy Hagan/Junior Johnson teams in the '80s when Labonte was there, and Kenseth had better overall stats (in fact Kenseth's '03 was kinda like Terry's '84 in a lot of ways, but Kenseth didn't have Dale Inman). Kenseth's late-career move to Gibbs is like Labonte's late-career move to Hendrick, but Gordon was better than Terry every season except maybe '94, and Terry NEVER dominated like this. I can't believe I'm rooting for Junior to win this. 178. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Jr fails on pit road again. Damn. 179. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Of course... Junior and Gordon are getting to rout Johnson, so they conveniently stay out forever on ancient tires... nice and classy. Luca di Montezemelo is smiling right now Rick. 180. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Someone stick a fork in Hamlin's season. 181. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course... Junior and Gordon are getting to rout Johnson, so they conveniently stay out forever on ancient tires... nice and classy. Luca di Montezemelo is smiling right now Rick. You mean Felipe and Rubens, right?!? 182. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Junior's driving like it's 2009. There's my parody for the week. 183. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Wow, during pit stops it was the first time today, that Mark Martin was mentioned on air. He has really fallen off this year. So, I am sad to say this, but please Mark, retire with dignity. Don't do a Petty, realize that the competitiveness is more or less gone and don't stick around for longer than needed. 184. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "You mean Felipe and Rubens, right?!? " Sort of... except Schumi and Alonso are nowhere near as vile and vulgar in their existence as Johnson is. 185. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) You mean Felipe and Rubens, right?!? And Mika (Salo) and Irvine. 186. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Mark hasn't had any dignity since he left Roush. Just my opinion though, and he, Burton, and Labonte are all long overdue for retirement. But at least Bobby isn't annoying me like the other two are. 187. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Don't tell me Bowyer is going to make it on gas... Would be a VERY unpopular win if he pulled it off. 188. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "Mark hasn't had any dignity since he left Roush. Just my opinion though, and he, Burton, and Labonte are all long overdue for retirement. But at least Bobby isn't annoying me like the other two are." It's kind of hard to say this given the classy competitor Martin has always been, but when you announce your retirement and have a huge farewell tour ongoing for a whole season, and then change your mind and stick around for pretty much another decade, you lose some respect. 189. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 5 Hour Energy really let Mikey in their commercial? Those guys just don't have a clue. Gordon will make it on fuel. At least he'll finish one Drive For Five he has been working on since the end of 2001. 190. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "and he, Burton, and Labonte are all long overdue for retirement. But at least Bobby isn't annoying me like the other two are." As a Burton fan, I once again have to defend him. He's been a fringe top 15 driver all year, but has had a ton of bad luck. He's running 15th right now as a matter of fact. So I would say that he's in the best shape out of the three of them. If he were to wind up in a ride like the 78 next year, I think he could still be perennial top 15 in points. As for Mark, yes, he absolutely needs to hang it up for good. This year to me has been the final straw. He's just gotten so terrible. And as for Bobby, I still think he could be a fringe top 20 or so driver if he had good equipment, but it's extremely unlikely that he'll ever get good equipment again, so maybe he should just hang it up too. 191. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To quote "Cool Hand Luke" in reference to throwing an excitement caution -- WHERE ARE YA NOW?!!??!? 192. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Sort of... except Schumi and Alonso are nowhere near as vile and vulgar in their existence as Johnson is." Whoa, whoa, whoa. Schumacher not as vile as Johnson? I don't recall Johnson intentionally wrecking his championship competition out of season finales TWICE. 193. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 4:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Admittedly, Villeneuve managed to finish the race, but it wasn't for lack of trying on Schumacher's part (he did get karmic justice that season at least). 194. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Schumacher not as vile as Johnson? I don't recall Johnson intentionally wrecking his championship competition out of season finales TWICE." Schumacher was my first favorite driver in any racing discipline, and even I agree with this, though "vile" probably isn't the word I would use anyway, I reserve that word for people like Hitler and Stalin. 195. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Vile was NRF's word, not mine. No, there are no drivers I would compare to totalitarian dictators. 196. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I think The Racing would be much better if NASCAR used Bias Ply Tires instead of the Radial Tire that they use all the time. 197. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Not to beat this dead horse, but if ANYBODY else other than the 48 had a 5+ second lead with under 50 laps left, the yellow would have been thrown, if for no other reason than to keep those remote controls from making a one-way change of the channel to a football game. 198. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not to beat this dead horse, but if ANYBODY else other than the 48 had a 5+ second lead with under 50 laps left, the yellow would have been thrown, if for no other reason than to keep those remote controls from making a one-way change of the channel to a football game." Like they did last week, right? And there's your debris caution... 199. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why!?!?!?!?!?!? 200. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Someone threw that from the infield. 201. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) NASCAR throws the debris caution for a piece of debris OUT of the racing groove. God forbid we have a fuel mileage scenario that keeps Jimmie Johnson out of victory lane...that would just be a disaster! 202. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Spring rubber on the bottom part of the apron, so let's throw a caution. 203. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:09 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Thanks NASCAR. Its not like fuel finishes are the only exciting things in the sport now. 204. mamorese posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) the predictability of these late race cautions make this sport ridiculously boring 205. DB1995 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) deBriS caution for Johnson 206. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Caution for debris in the apron. 207. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr takes four while the other three take two. 208. DB1995 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like jr on this now. 209. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR might as well just make a rule that a caution will be thrown every 50 laps to keep the field from getting spread apart... 210. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Jr. is gonna restart on the outside (4th place) with four fresh tires, behind three guys with only two fresh tires... 211. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Gordon inside of him and Jr behind him on the restart to box out Kenseth and Kyle. Just wonderful 212. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:12 pm Rate this comment: (6) (0) Piss off, Johnson! 213. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "NASCAR might as well just make a rule that a caution will be thrown every 50 laps to keep the field from getting spread apart..." Having official "TV timeout" cautions that are announced in advance would certainly be fairer. Ideally, that wouldn't exist either but I'd prefer it to what we currently have when a caution could come out at any time for any reason. Well, I think Junior's crew just won the race because he's going to be on the outside and right behind Johnson with fresher tires after the restart. 214. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth behind Gordon on the restart? That sucks for Matt. 215. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Jimmie Johnson leads, no debris caution: "They won't call the caution because Johnson's leading!" Jimmie Johnson leads, debris caution: "They called the caution because Jimmie needs fuel!" Anyone else leads, no debris caution: "Glad they're letting them race!" Anyone else leads, debris caution: "They must be trying to help the #48 get to the front!" 216. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kenseth got freight-trained because of his two tires. 217. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards to the garage. 218. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NLA, amen and amen. 219. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jr has got it 220. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Carl Edwards to the garage. Junior battling Johnson for the lead, but will he try to pass him or hang onto second? 221. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) C'mon Massa! 222. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Would Hendrick allow this, or will he say "Jimmie is faster than you"? 223. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think Jeff's bad restart may have just helped Junior win this race. We'll see how it plays out. 224. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) What's that smell? Oh, is it the smell of Hendrick rigging with team orders? 225. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Pretty much anybody would have been passed in that scenario, not just Gordon. 4th has always gone to 2nd on every restart. It's that kind of stuff where you get an advantage if you're in the preferred line even when you're BEHIND that disgusts me about the double-file restart rule. Having said that, I actually don't think Junior is going to pass Johnson, and this is PUZZLING. Junior has NO business losing this race now. How can Johnson still be faster? Kyle Busch wasn't. 226. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like Jimmie's TWO tires are somehow magically faster than Junior's FOUR tires. 227. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Earnhardt may have used up the newness of the tires too early... if he sets it up properly, he should still be able to get by though. 228. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1st time ever, Go Junior Go!!! 229. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Looks like Jimmie's TWO tires are somehow magically faster than Junior's FOUR tires." Might just be clean air. Loudon 1998. 230. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Four has never lost to two at Dover in 44 years of existence. 231. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wouldnt mind a caution right now.. 232. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Piss off, Johnson! Work, god damn you curse, work! 233. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) BORING!!!! 234. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Major disappointment here. 235. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) VERY disappointed with the finish of this race. 236. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The thing that concerns me is that last time Hendrick ran this well as a whole at Dover it turned out that the cars were VERY illegal and Hendrick manipulated NASCAR into not penalizing them. 237. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A good drive for the #88? He sped in the pits twice! And had fresher tires on the last restart with 30 laps to go. He should have won this going away! 238. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:24 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) The "wheel holder" dominates yet another race at a driver's track. 239. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Blergh. How many times is Johnson going to win here in his career? 15 times? 240. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Malocchia tu! Now we have to hear all the BS about how Jimmie is greater than Richard Petty. *vomits* 241. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Sickening finish, clean air once again wins. 242. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Notice how the life is just sucked out of everyone now. 243. We need more Onion posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Have Harvick ended up in 5th it'd be my nightmare top 5. Was an okay race before the lackluster deBS ending. 244. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Son of a bitch!! God dammit!, now ESPN will say he is better than Petty and Allison and everybody else and i will puke on my TV. f**k! 245. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Give Johnson his due, guys; he's good. 246. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "The "wheel holder" dominates yet another race at a driver's track. " I for one have never thought of it as a driver's track. It was only a driver's track back in the days of the 500-milers. In fact, it's the only track where both turns are identical. Seems really easy to me. 247. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "sped in the pits twice" Sorry, missed his pit twice. I wasn't watching THAT attentively and for good reason. 248. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is going to be some chase.Hope the Toyota's don't blow up, make Johnson earn it 249. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "Give Johnson his due, guys; he's good." He is good, there's no denying it. But it's just disappointing that this dynasty has no signs whatsoever of ending. I don't know what happened. I guess Jr just used up his tires too early there or something. Dammit, dammit. 250. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) ...Am I one of the few who actually likes Dover? It's not the GREATEST track on the circuit, but it's at least a unique track-it's not yet another typical 1.5 mile cookie cutter track. I don't like seeing Johnson win here so much, yes, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad track. 251. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Disappointing that nobody could pass Johnson. Hope Kenseth can keep up the strong finishes and he doesn't have any blown motors in the final 7 races. 252. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I for one have never thought of it as a driver's track. It was only a driver's track back in the days of the 500-milers. In fact, it's the only track where both turns are identical. Seems really easy to me." Except for Homestead, Martinsville, and basically Bristol. Based on everything I've seen, Dover is one of the toughest tracks in Sprint Cup, but I'll agree to disagree with you. 253. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Let's have Jimmie Johnson and Sebastian Vettel trade cars so somebody else has a chance once in a while. Of course I'm not serious, but zzzzzzzz... Nobody's denying he's good except maybe NRF but just because he has the most wins at Dover now that hardly means he's in any way better than Petty or Allison. Who cares about Dover really? It's better than the cookie-cutters but still kind of generic. Win the most races at Watkins Glen or Martinsville and I'll be more impressed. 254. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) "He is good, there's no denying it. But it's just disappointing that this dynasty has no signs whatsoever of ending." Oh, it'll end. Kenseth takes care of that. Besides, Johnson someday will go right next to Ryan Braun, Barry Bonds, and many others on the list of greatest cheaters in the history of sports. Right there on the Wall of Shame. 255. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If this were August, Jimmie would've blown a tire at the end. All of his bad luck seems to be done with for the year. 256. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) That just shows you what an advantage those HMS cars have. 2 tires on a 4 tire track and the 48 and 88 just yarded everyone. Plus they got the late caution they needed for fuel. What a damn joke. Even the fossil Gordon got a Top 5 in that equipment. Everybody praises drivers and crew chiefs like Gordon, Johnson, Evernham, Knaus, DeHart etc. It is virtually impossible for those cars to ever do anything wrong. Nothing ever accomplished in an HMS car means anything to me. 257. JRacingFast posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Have i ever mentioned to you guys how much i hate Jimmie Johnson??? 258. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Can we remove Dover (and Martinsville) from the chase and stop having Jimmie get damn freebie wins/points every year? Awesome to see Hendrick up on the 88 pit box coaching Junior on the final laps... "DON'T YOU DARE PASS JIMMIE" 259. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) Give The Felon credit for one thing: when it comes to giving team orders, he's not stupid like Mikey and his organization are. He gives the team orders in private before the race starts. And his drivers (especially the 88) followed them to a tee. 260. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd certainly give Hendrick drivers a 'Hendrick discount' for the team's dominance like DSFF but saying nothing accomplished means anything to the point of like not ranking Johnson and Gordon as top 20 drivers seems wrong to me as well. And who on earth rates Gary DeHart highly? Hendrick's had about ten better crew chiefs than him. 261. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) OK, I forgot Homestead (biggest joke of a track), but Martinsville's weird in that the turns are different on the inside groove and the wall placement. The thing that made Dover "tough" was that it used to be a 4-5 hour race full of attrition because of the high lap count for the low number of miles covered. 262. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) "Give The Felon credit for one thing: when it comes to giving team orders, he's not stupid like Mikey and his organization are. He gives the team orders in private before the race starts. And his drivers (especially the 88) followed them to a tee." Dale Jarrett gave an expert analysis on how Johnson was able to hold off Earnhardt, but I guess he's in on the team orders too. 263. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) "And who on earth rates Gary DeHart highly? Hendrick's had about ten better crew chiefs than him." Nobody does, but he was a smart strategist. What's notable about Knaus is his inability to make a fast car WITHIN the rulebook. 264. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The "wheel holder" didn't have to do anythong except to run the groove. Not easy, but not the challenge the non HMS drivers have. What Kyle did by hanging on that one run was a wheel man. HMS is just on rails at Dover. Even Gordon has managed a Top 5 today. What does that tell you? And that sound you heard during Jimmie's celebration was the sound of NASCAR dying a little bit more. 265. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) It's funny that we never heard about Dover not meaning anything because it's only 400 miles when Keselowski won last year. 266. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Dale Jarrett gave an expert analysis on how Johnson was able to hold off Earnhardt, but I guess he's in on the team orders too. " Shut the hell up and let us cynics cynicize (I just invented a word; now I'm like Darrell Waltrip!). Seriously, DJ was mediocre at best here (one fuel win), so I'd rather hear Rusty agree with DJ first. 267. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like Dover too, Schroeder (though I would absolutely be in favor of it losing a race to Road America, like it was rumored a couple weeks ago). The racing is always pretty good (the product today was good, I thought). It's just always a bit of a letdown race because you know that Jimmie ALWAYS has about an 80% chance of winning. 268. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Once Johnson wins 15 at Martinsville wins 7 championships with also leading the regular season points i will compare him to Cale Yarborough or Darrell Waltrip, he will never get to the level to be deserved to be compared to Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt, or David Pearson. 269. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Despite the race he drove, Jr. gains only ONE spot in points. What an awful points system. 270. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison. Only they would think Johnson would run circles around the greats of yesteryear... 271. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's funny that we never heard about Dover not meaning anything because it's only 400 miles when Keselowski won last year. " Nice lying there, man, but Dover was on my hack-track list for a long time before that. 272. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Young David, when are the Grand-Am points going up? 273. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) " 269. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Despite the race he drove, Jr. gains only ONE spot in points. What an awful points system. " Seriously? 274. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) "Despite the race he drove" hahahahaha He choked a win. How is finishing 2nd with a car that should have been a guaranteed winner a good performance? Oh, dear. I'm starting to sound like Kit. 275. Jared DiCarlo posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) VERY disappointed with the outcome. My mom and I were cheering for Junior in hopes that he would somehow slide around Naptime Johnson. Alas, it was not to be, as the Five-Time Cheater and his illegal car parts cruised to victory. I have never been so upset about the end of a race before. I'm done with NASCAR right now. 276. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "VERY disappointed with the outcome. My mom and I were cheering for Junior in hopes that he would somehow slide around Naptime Johnson. Alas, it was not to be, as the Five-Time Cheater and his illegal car parts cruised to victory. I have never been so upset about the end of a race before. I'm done with NASCAR right now. " Dude, you cared enough to come on here and make it your first comment. Stick around and we'll show you what the pros do. ;) 277. New14 & 88Fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not happy about JJ wining but meh, it is what it is. Hopefully Matt can hang on to the points lead and that they don't have any TuRD failures. 278. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "It's just always a bit of a letdown race because you know that Jimmie ALWAYS has about an 80% chance of winning." I've never really cared for The Monotonous Mild. But the same thing has ruined a track I used to really enjoy, Martinsville, for me. 279. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With hard engine tracks like Kansas, Charlotte, and Talladega all coming up, I'm really getting nervous about those TuRD motors. If Kenseth has just one, all of a sudden Jimmie will be in the driver's seat. 280. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How did HMS, with the exception of Kahne run this well this weekend as an organization? After all, Dover is a large Bristol and remember what Jimmie said about Bristol in August. The fuel strategy was interesting considering the focus on Bowyer and Brian Pattie on the #15 team radio when the caution came out. 281. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:43 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Johnson in the 80s with Earnhardt: Johnson comes off pit road up in front of Dale, Johnson gets rattled, johnson bitches and whines, Earnhardt smiles 282. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, so maybe my post #21 was a little off... 283. Kenny posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The first race I watch in like a month and this is what I gotta sit throu :( 284. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Like many, I dislike seeing the 48 win, but that's life. I will be really interested to see how the new multi zone tread tires work in their second outing at Kansas, hopefully it will create more tire wear and better racing. 285. Neal posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:44 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) I've gotta admit Danica is getting better...at finishing multiple laps down. 286. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Johnson in the 80s with Earnhardt: Johnson comes off pit road up in front of Dale, Johnson gets rattled, johnson bitches and whines, Earnhardt smiles " If Johnson or Knaus or anyone else gave Earnhardt the attitude they give others, he'd have literally beaten their faces into pulp. 287. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Johnson's not untalented (if he had no talent, there's no way he'd ever be able to win or run well even with the equipment he has), but it just bugs me seeing the media trump him up to be a driver superior to legends like Petty or Earnhardt. BSPN would claim that he would blow their doors off, but we all know that if he ever raced against them in their prime in similar equipment, Johnson would have crapped himself the first time they ever raced him hard. 288. Aaron posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nice job by Dale Jr. rebounding from the pit mistake to finish 2nd. Johnson was just way too quick on restarts. Also, Jr didn't speed on pit road twice, he was about to speed once but opted to avoid pit road altogether and lost 10-12 seconds instead of 1-3 laps. As far as damage control goes, it was a good call. The key for Team 88 is getting more than a couple races like this a year. Still a great day overall though. 289. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I think the best way to look at it is this: NASCAR has evolved into stock-car-F1. They're even the same in that a driver with no character, a questionable crew chief, and a smarmy series-manipulating owner dominate. Both series are in their least competitive eras in series history, and the race is decided based on who has the best car and not the best driver on that given day. So before you say the grass is greener on the other side of the fence by racing series, you're wrong, but if you look on the other side of 1990, it is FAR FAR greener. 290. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison. Only they would think Johnson would run circles around the greats of yesteryear..." - Power steering, 500 grueling miles, driver fatigue leading to some relief drivers is somehow inferior to 400 mile races with questionable debris cautions benefiting the entire field. The Ripple Effect was on an economy run and might have been in the catbirds seat if the race had gone green... mmmmmmmmm ESPN listening to their team radio as the yellow light came on. 291. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At least in Vettel's case, Red Bull never won until he showed up, even though they had Adrian Newey there several years earlier. And I'm no Vettel fan. Just compare what he did to what Sebastien Bourdais did in the other car, after 4 Champ Car titles (which was basically nothing). Vettel did much more to elevate Red Bull than Johnson did to elevate Hendrick (which was basically nothing, as he received the defending champion's equipment as a rookie, while Red Bull was not exactly kicking butt before Vettel started). 292. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Johnson's not untalented (if he had no talent, there's no way he'd ever be able to win or run well even with the equipment he has), but it just bugs me seeing the media trump him up to be a driver superior to legends like Petty or Earnhardt." - Many Nascar fans on this board and elsewhere concur with this statement. 293. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But I DO agree with you NRF that NASCAR today has most of the same elements that have made the last 20 years of Formula One so appealing, and IndyCar, although much less marketable, has been a lot more fun than either (especially since Penske and Ganassi are winning somewhat less...) 294. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) so unappealing* 295. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) BoB manages to do worse than she did in her first trip here this year; there she got a top-25, only four laps down after having a flat tire early in the race. Here, with no tire problems, she gets lapped six times and only barely manages to get a top 30 (would have finished outside of it if Keselowski and Edwards didn't have problems). I can't wait until next year when she's supposed to really come on and be a Chase contender. 296. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:56 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison." Just out of curiosity did anyone on ESPN actually say "With his 8th win at Dover, Jimmie Johnson is now better than Richard Petty or Bobby Allison"? Or was something similar to "With his 8th win at Dover, Jimmie Johnson has now surpassed Richard Petty and Bobby Allsion in wins at the track"? There's a big difference between the two, but unfortunately quite a few people on here can't or won't draw that distinction. 297. Jared DiCarlo posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sportcenter is praising Johnson right now. They are even having an interview with Ricky Craven who is saying that Johnson is one of the best drivers ever. Typical BSPN. 298. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 5:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DaleSrFanForever, Gordon has run well at Dover recently, but the #88 team's performance is more suspect as it seems to have come out of the blue. The Friday the 13th marathon on SyFy Channel was more intriguing than this race, except the brief possibility of an economy run jumbling the order to the finish. 299. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) "Sportcenter is praising Johnson right now. They are even having an interview with Ricky Craven who is saying that Johnson is one of the best drivers ever. Typical BSPN." Don't most drivers, current and former, consider Johnson to be one of the best all time? Why is it "typical BSPN" to express a popularly held belief among the people who have actually competed in the sport and know what it's like. 300. TS1420 posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "I can't wait until next year when she's supposed to really come on and be a Chase contender." Oh she will make The Chase next year.... After NASCAR decides to keep the 13th chase spot and make it a fan-vote position. 301. Spen posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:02 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Dover's not a hard track to drive on, just hard to pass on. If I've got clean air, (on a racing sim) I can dominate. If I don't, it's gonna be a long day. You know what would really be fun? Replicate the 1957 season today. Have Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, Childress, Mikey, Penske, Ganassi, et all pull out midseason and leave us with 43 owner-drivers for the rest of the year. Then we'll see who's actually good. 302. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) Don't know for sure but there might be team orders going on at Hendrick Motorsports. 303. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "You know what would really be fun? Replicate the 1957 season today. Have Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, Childress, Mikey, Penske, Ganassi, et all pull out midseason and leave us with 43 owner-drivers for the rest of the year. Then we'll see who's actually good. " And we watch as CE Falk drives off into the sunset to take the checkered flag... 304. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #300 Sadly, I can TOTALLY see NASCAR doing something like that in the near future. 305. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:05 pm Rate this comment: (5) (2) Honestly, as much as I dislike Johnson, I think I'm more annoyed by die-hard Johnson haters/conspiracy theorists. I can't stand the guy, but I have respect for what he's done. Hendrick equipment isn't everything, guys. The guy can drive. 306. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The guy can drive." I don't think anybody here is really denying his driving ability. I'm certainly not. I do think he's a bit overrated as a driver, but overall he still is very good. 307. Sean posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I agree with Zackary. I'd certainly put Johnson in my all-time Cup top ten. And Michael Schumacher in my all-time F1 top ten. And Sebastian Vettel in my all-time F1 top ten. As much as they ALL annoy me... Hendrick has almost all the superstars now (including Stewart-Haas here), even more so when Harvick and Kurt join SHR, and Johnson still blows out all his Hendrick/SHR teammates. I do believe Cup teams have preferred drivers now like F1 teams do, but I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories myself. I presume Johnson won because he had clean air (or because Junior sucks in general), not because Junior was ordered not to pass. 308. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing about BSPN hyping up Johnson that gets annoying is that while they don't actually come out and say, they are basically insinuating that he is on par with legends like Bobby Allison and Richard Petty. Now, again, I think Jimmie is a very good driver. Certainly one of the greatest of all time. But I don't think he is anywhere near the level of those guys. When it comes to grouping legends together, I would put him together with guys like Rusty Wallace and Bill Elliott. I think that's fair. I think talent wise Jimmie is just about equal with those two guys. But it gets annoying as hell when they put him together with guys like Petty, Earnhardt, Pearson, etc. Those guys are and always will be clearly untouchable. So when I say that I personally think that Jimmie is a very good driver but also a bit overrated, that's what I mean. 309. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:17 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "Honestly, as much as I dislike Johnson, I think I'm more annoyed by die-hard Johnson haters/conspiracy theorists. I can't stand the guy, but I have respect for what he's done. Hendrick equipment isn't everything, guys. The guy can drive. " Thank you so much for saying that. I'm so sick of people making up conspiracy theories and comparing Johnson and Hendrick to murderers (you know who I'm referring to here). It's just awful that people hate Johnson with such as passion that they type some pretty ridiculous stuff. I don't like Johnson much, but I respect what he's accomplished because not just anybody can win 60+ races and 5 championships. And don't begin to tell me that Hendrick is so shady, because we've seen drivers run poorly at HMS (see Casey Mears). That just shows how you have to have talent to run well in HMS equipment. Seriously, if you hate them so much, then don't talk about them. 310. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "I don't think anybody here is really denying his driving ability." I never considered you one, but I can certainly think of a few. One in particular. To that person I say, "wheel holders" don't win 5 championships no matter what the points system is or what equipment they drive. 311. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Jimmie's standing as a top-5 great would rise if Hendrick replaced Knaus with an honest crew chief that didn't have a cloud of controversy and proved they could win championships. Is Jimmie arrogant as a result of his on-track success? Most likely. Is Chad Knaus an unethical something or another? Yes. Me, I personally prefer the pre-2007 Jimmie Johnson who was grateful and appreciative of his standing in the sport. As someone who grew up in a trailor park and worked his ass off to earn every opportunity, I firmly believe Jimmie lost touch with his roots once the #48 team started dominating the championship between 2006-2010. 312. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) zzzzzzz 313. Jim Davis posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:30 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Me, I personally prefer the pre-2007 Jimmie Johnson who was grateful and appreciative of his standing in the sport." What convinces you that Johnson is no longer grateful and appreciative? 314. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) One SI.com writer called Johnson "the greatest American race car driver ever". Not stock car driver, race car driver. That would not only include Petty, Pearson, Allison, Earnhardt, etc., but a guy like A.J. Foyt, who would have blown Johnson's doors off. What Johnson is, above all else, is an opportunist. And I'm not saying that in a bad way. He's taken advantage of the opportunity to drive in the best equipment, with the best support, the (probably) cheatingest crew chief, and an owner with the deepest pockets in the sport and a documented history of bribery (and no, I'm not making that last part up). If he wants to be considered the best of all-time, put him in inferior equipment (even if just slightly inferior), with inferior support, and see what he does. If he wins 4 or 5 times a year and seriously contends for a title in oh, let's say Paul Menard's stuff, well then I'll consider him to be a great driver. And I'll also say this: if you remember the HMS crew chief merry-go-round prior to the 2011 season, which team was the only one who kept their old crew chief from 2010? That's right, the 48 team. In a way, that shows me that The Felon doesn't trust Johnson to be able to win without his pet crew chief around. And I don't want to hear about the 2006 Daytona 500; that was a plate race. 315. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) I will say this about ESPN's alleged bias towards Jimmie. After the race someone said he's the most fit driver in the sport. I'm sure Carl and Mark would have a thing or two to say about. 316. Baker posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) Knew it. Championship is over and it's all Jimmie's 317. Sector posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race gave Hendrick Motorsports its all time record of most top 5's in NASCAR history. Jimmie's win, Dale Earnhardt Jr's 2nd & Jeff Gordon's 4th gave HMS its 889th top 5, passing Petty Enterprises' 888 top 5's. As well as Jimmie's record breaking 8th win @ Dover, passing Richard Petty & Bobby Allison. There are three records remaining for Hendrick Motorsports to tie Petty Enterprises' records: 1) Both are tied for most Cup Championship(10 apiece). 2) Hendrick Motorsports need 52 wins to their 216 current total to tie Petty Enterprises' 268. 3) Petty Enterprises' 60,548 laps led total is in jeopardy to Hendrick Motorsports, currently with 59850 laps led. Why? Well that's 698 more laps led which could easily be done before the year's out, if not, next year, with half could possibly be done @ Martinsville later in this year's Chase. 318. Zackary Shawn posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One SI.com writer called Johnson "the greatest American race car driver ever"." Can you provide a link to that so those of us who are skeptical can get the full context of that quote? A google search for Jimmie Johnson "greatest American race car driver ever" returns exactly two results, one talking about Tony Stewart (in the context of a "one of, if not the" statement and the other talking about AJ Foyt. A google search without the quotes returns dozens of articles that simply ask "Is Jimmie Johnson the greatest of all time?" or something similar to that. That's certainly a fair question to ask and debate. Also, I only looked on the first 3 pages of results but none I saw came form Sports Illustrated. "In a way, that shows me that The Felon doesn't trust Johnson to be able to win without his pet crew chief around. And I don't want to hear about the 2006 Daytona 500; that was a plate race." He won Las Vegas without Knaus as well that year. 319. Anonymous posted: 09.29.2013 - 6:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "He won Las Vegas without Knaus as well that year." After a fake caution to catch him back up. 320. jabber1990 posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Knew it. Championship is over and it's all Jimmie's " didn't I say that after Daytona and said it again after Richmond? and if I remember right you said "there are 10 weeks left" 321. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:03 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Oh, dear. I'm starting to sound like Kit." I miss Kit, whatever happened to him? I guess he did what the rest of us want to do, said "to hell with this shit" and rode his motorcycle on Sundays instead. Hey, he lives in Texas, Ben Lowe go find him. Knock on the door of every house in Texas and ask the residents if any of them used to post as Kit on racing reference. 322. joey2448 posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As much as I hate seeing Jimmie Johnson dominate another race, I'll still go on record to say I enjoy the racing at Dover. The only reason it's boring when Jimmie wins is because of the way he does it. The racing here has always been pretty good, but Jimmie runs EVERY SINGLE LAP without making a mistake. Every other driver will make small mistakes like get loose and run up the track, or nearly wreck coming off the turn, but Jimmie's car is absolutely on a 1-inch rail out there, and it just looks suspicious how good his car is. BUT, I still do enjoy the racing here. That would've been funny seeing Knaus and Co. run down pit road to confront the Junkyard Dogs.... 323. Schroeder51 posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson being a Bill Elliott/Rusty Wallace level talent sounds about right to me. Like I said, he is definitely a highly talented driver, but I don't think he is one of THE absolute greatest to ever strap into a NASCAR stock car. And I'm curious about that article calling Johnson the greatest driver in American history as well. I want to see if this is actually real. How could somebody honestly say Johnson is better than A. J. Foyt?! Could Johnson win the Indy 500 if given an opportunity out of the blue, or could he win the 24 Hours of Le Mans? I HIGHLY doubt it. Foyt was so ridiculously talented there's absolutely no comparison. 324. Anthony posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Boring race. Horray for Jeff Gordon! Points just keep it coming P4! All right! If your a Jeff Gordon fan. 325. BON GORDON posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:12 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet but Gordon tied Earnhardt Sr. with 428 Top tens (4th all-time). Good Top five finish today. 326. Sunoco posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:28 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Johnson is good. Very, very, very good. Look, I can admit it, unlike a lot of people. 327. Paul posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Looks like Marty Reid and ESPN have parted ways after 31 years of employment. Based on the report from the Associated Press, I get the feeling that his error during the Nationwide race at Kentucky last weekend, when he declared Ryan Blaney the race winner as he took the white flag, was the last straw in ESPN's mind. Or it could be that ESPN is just cutting costs on their motorsports coverage since they won't be returning after the 2014 season (and there have been rumors that they are looking to get out of their NASCAR TV contract one year early). That's why Allen Bestwick was calling the Nationwide race at Dover yesterday; a role he will fill for the remainder of this season. 328. murb posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Looks like Marty Reid and ESPN have parted ways after 31 years of employment." I'm definitely not the hugest fan of Marty's commentary, but he does seem to be a genuinely nice guy, so I wish him well in whatever he decides to do next. Hopefully this now means that Paul Page will get some coverage with the IndyCar Series again (or maybe even NNS?). He deserves it after he's had to do those stupid ass hot dog contests. 329. Eric posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Paul, I don't think ESPN is just cutting costs on their motorsports coverage on why Marty Reid was let go. Espn/ABC has Indycar and NHRA after NASCAR leaves in 2014. Marty Reid does more than NASCAR and that meant he would have been kept after 2014 unlike Dale Jarrett,Andy Petree, Rusty Wallace, Ricky Craven, Ray Evernham, and Brad Daugherty. The only NASCAR people ESPN would keep is for their website. 330. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well SpeedWorld97, that's because second place is no more important than 32nd place, in terms of competing for it because the difference in a pass is just one point, regardless if it's for second place or 32nd place. However, the finish of the race was dictated by four things. The first was the pecking order at HMS, which clearly has the #48 car #1, with the other three placed in any order you want to put them in, and that can be dictated at he shop before the teams even leave for the track. The second is aero-push, which was clearly a reason why nobody could do much passing, especially up front. Once Dale, Jr. got to within a certain distance of Jimmie, he could go no further, something Dale Jarrett even mentioned. He said that while Dale, Jr. had what seemed like an obvious advantage, the air prevented him from getting close enough to use that advantage. The fourth is more complicated. About two or three laps after the restart, Dale, Jr. just about made a move on Jimmie, but couldn't get all the way alongside him. Had he, he would have passed him. But once they got a few laps on their tires, and this was something the commentators never mentioned, Dale, Jr.'s tires became just as used as Jimmie's were, so his advantage would only have lasted a few laps anyway. And once Dale, Jr. couldn't get by Jimmie early in that final run, I think he realized he was beat (with 20 laps to go), so he just settled for second place. I just wonder what would have happened had that been Jeff Gordon, and not Dale, Jr. behind Jimmie. I think the results would have been the same, but it would not have been nearly as easy, because Jeff would have made Jimmie actually work for it that whole run, while Jimmie really had it easy those last 20 laps, because Dale, Jr. made the one run he was going to make on Jimmie, and then seemed to settle for second place. Had Jeff been in that position and had a comparable car, he would have make Jimmie work for it every inch of the way, though I believe the results would have been exactly the same. But Gordon would not have given the race to Jimmie in any way. I think we all know that. 331. The Long Shot posted: 09.29.2013 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I've always been a big detractor of Reid's commentary, but still, I'm sorry that this had to happen to him. Maybe he can replace Mike Joy as the Barrett-Jackson lead auction analyst or something. Announcer: "$70,000...going once..." Marty Reid: "And the '78 Corvette is sold for $70,000." Announcer: "...going twice...SOLD!" Marty Reid: "Oh, whoops. My bad. *nervous laughter*" 332. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Marty Reid's tenure at ESPN is "History" Hopefully, he finds a motorsports gig soon but the competition is getting stiffer for broadcasting auto races. 333. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 09.29.2013 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 3 cautions for a spring rubber. Nascar is really getting bad with these cautions 334. Daniel posted: 09.29.2013 - 8:36 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Get' em at Kansas agin Gordon! 335. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 09.29.2013 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) This really isn't a huge sting for Marty Reid seeing as ESPN was going to stop covering NASCAR anyway. That said, he wasn't my favorite analyst either (especially with his constant usage of the word "history"). It'd be nice if NASCAR decides to let one of these races play out naturally the whole way someday, but in today's days of the sport, it'll never happen. Sad times... 336. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #318: Here you go: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/racing/news/20130808/tony-stewart-crash-hurts-chase-hopes-nascar-mail/index.html Look in the "mailbag" section, where he answers a comment from Jerry in Lancaster, Ohio. There's no context for the comment to be taken in, other than the guys says it's his opinion. 337. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #318: The moderator isn't allowing me to link directly to the article in question, so let me just say to go to SI.com and look for an August 8th column from Lars Anderson. In the mailbag secion of the article, he answers a comment from Jerry in Lancaster, Ohio with this quote: "...we are witnessing--in my opinion--the greatest American race car driver of all time in his prime". That's it. No context. He doesn't say "one of the greatest", he says "the greatest". 338. Loose Lugnuts posted: 09.29.2013 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oops, I guess the moderator DID let me link to it. But it did take a while, which is why I assumed he hadn't allowed it. My mistake. 339. 18fan posted: 09.29.2013 - 9:09 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) NicoRosbergFan, What active Cup tracks are not on your hack-track list? I respect your opinion, whatever it is. I am more curious than anything else. 340. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.29.2013 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sonoma, Watkins Glen, Martinsville, and to a VERY small extent Darlington and Atlanta ( the summer heat and attrition made that track need the talent). While I do believe car wins out, Pocono (only if there's shifting involved), Bristol, and Richmond need a smattering of talent, but not much. 341. Josh C posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) I'm disappointed in Jr. If he ever wants to win a championship he would have knocked Johnson's bumper off on that last restart. Jr is pathetic and borderline shameful as a racecar driver. 342. Cornys posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) When will we see a race play out naturally? Maybe after NASCAR takes all the downforce away after the testing at Charlotte. That all will come true when pigs fly and turtles run marathons on two feet. The only truth in the statement is that there will be a test at Charlotte monday after the race for some reason. This is undisclosed reasoning however. 343. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What could Marty Reid have possible done? He's been with the network for over 30 years. Like him or not, he generally seems to enjoy racing and respect it for what it is. Perhaps he's moving to another network? 344. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) And risk taking two HMS cars, including the only title contender HMS has, out and have Joey Logano or one of the JGR cars win the race, Josh C? I don't think so. The one thing I believe Rick Hendrick has told his drivers over the years is that, whatever happens, he doesn't want a repeat of what happened at Martinsville in 1990 (when then-HMS teammates Ricky Rudd and Ken Schrader took each other out while battling for the lead), an had Dale, Jr. forced the issue, that would likely have happened. He did the right thing in not forcing the issue. I think he really thought, as did much of the viewing audience (don't include me in that), that he would at least get another shot at Jimmie, but aerodynamics prevented that when he had the tire advantage, and then when his tire advantage expired, he had nothing left for the #48 car. Had he done what you wanted Josh C, there would have been anarchy at the 48/88 shop, since both cars would have been wrecked, to say nothing about how that would have affected the rest of the organization from a psychological standpoint, the 5 and 24 teams included. He did the right thing. It just didn't work out for him, and that happens sometimes. 345. David posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "He won Las Vegas without Knaus as well that year." Doesn't matter. It's still too small of a sample size, anyway. We don't know for sure how Johnson would perform without Knaus as his crew chief. I have never denied Johnson's talent behind the wheel, but he is no Petty, Pearson, or Earnhardt. Or Allison. 346. ch posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Changes: 9 - Stanley Tools / DeWalt 24 - Axalta Coating Systems / Cromax Pro 33 - Circle Sport 36 - Drive Sober, Arrive Alive DE 40 - Circle Sport Also, it appears that there is no link on Joe Falk's name for the #40 car. 347. cjs3872 posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing that worries me RCRandPenskeGuy, is the fact that the caution came out three times for spring rubbers. That comes from one or two things. Either the track surface at Dover is getting rough enough that things are literally vibrating off the cars (remember that Brad Keselowski had a problem with a seal, which almost never happens) or that chassis items, such as spring rubbers, are not being prepared or installed properly, which in turn, would cause them to fall off, bringing out caution flags. I believe had the caution not come out with 31 laps to go, that Clint Bowyer would have been the guy in victory lane, because I believe his may have been the only car capable of making it to the end without stopping, and even if he had been lapped (which he nearly was), he still might have won the race because of how long even a stop-and-go would take at Dover. A stop-and-go takes about 30-40 seconds due to the long pit road and the speed limit, which likely would have put Bowyer in victory lane today if that last caution had not come out. 348. Watto posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "How did HMS, with the exception of Kahne run this well this weekend as an organization? After all, Dover is a large Bristol and remember what Jimmie said about Bristol in August." Dover and Bristol may both be concrete tracks, but they drive very different and take different styles. Jimmie has a long history of running great at Dover, not so much at Bristol. "Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison." No, they weren't calling him superior outside of the factual information that he has now won more races at Dover than those two drivers individually.Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison. "Don't most drivers, current and former, consider Johnson to be one of the best all time?" Absolutely. I'm not a Johnson fan, but at least I could recognize that we are watching an era with a driver who absolutely will go down in history as one of the best NASCAR drivers ever. There's no objective "best driver", that's completely subjective, but "one of the best drivers in the history of NASCAR" is an extremely fair assessment. "What's notable about Knaus is his inability to make a fast car WITHIN the rulebook." You know, except for every time the 48 is flying and passes tech inspection without a problem. Although, I guess in the eyes of those who want to delegitimize the 48 team's success, any race they win is tainted by cheating and every other team who has ever won, including your boy Gordon who made a livelihood off of cars working the grey area, were perfectly legal. 349. Watto posted: 09.29.2013 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No, they weren't calling him superior outside of the factual information that he has now won more races at Dover than those two drivers individually.Here BSPN goes claiming that Johnson is superior to Petty and Allison." sorry I quoted the quote I was responding to and my response without quotes... I accidentally pasted it twice and didnt proofread. 350. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.29.2013 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That's right New England. Keep winning, get a home playoff game and lose. I love watching Peyton Manning and Tom Brady lose playoff games at home. 351. David posted: 09.29.2013 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Speaking of other sports... YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHH INDIANS!!!!!! MAKING THE PLAYOFFS FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE '07!! YEAH BABY!!!!!! NOW GO WIN THAT WORLD SERIES!!!!! Okay, I'm done. 352. David posted: 09.29.2013 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow. WHAT A CATCH by Jones. Heck, the Falcons might win this dang thing. 353. DaleSrFanForever posted: 09.30.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Pats damn near blew it! If "Matty Ice" would have been a little cooler in the end they'd be in overtime. Looks like another season of "who is the best QB ever, Brady or Manning?" only for an early playoff exit for each. 354. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 09.30.2013 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Falcons are getting in a hole early. The NFC South is at least an 11 or 12 win division. 355. Anonymous posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:08 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Brad Keselowski in 37th took home a larger purse than Ryan Newman in 8th 356. SoonersFan posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @353 I know right? 357. b4il3y posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jr. Hasn't had a set of balls since he got set on fire. Call it unpopular, call it what you will. But its the truth. 358. Watto posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jr. Hasn't had a set of balls since he got set on fire. Call it unpopular, call it what you will. But its the truth." Hard to say if that's really the case. After coming back from that Corvette fire in 2004, he won 3 races in his final 13 starts that year, finished top 5 in points, 2005 was a struggle with 3 different crew chiefs, then 2006 he finished top 5 in points again. His driving style wasn't any different before that crash than after. he was never someone to really use someone up, aside from the sporadic examples we have (most coming to mind being within the last 6-7 years) 359. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's really been since he moved to Hendrick that Jr has struggled. So I don't think the Corvette crash is to blame. Like Watto said, his last couple years at DEI were pretty strong (except for that 2005 season where they idiotically did like three crew chief swaps or whatever - but 2006 was good and he actually ran pretty good in 2007 but had a bad engine year that would make TuRD proud). I guess maybe he thrives better when he is THE number one guy on the team? It sure seemed like that was the case at DEI. I guess playing second fiddle to Jimmie has affected him, sort of like how it's affected Gordon in recent years (and now it looks like it's starting to affect Kahne too). 360. Jared DiCarlo posted: 09.30.2013 - 4:31 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2013 champion is Jimmie Johnson! 361. 18fan posted: 09.30.2013 - 4:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have always considered Kahne a one-trick pony with the trick being intermediate tracks. His Martinsville performance has improved, but a monkey could contend in an HMS car at Martinsville. 362. Jocke Persson posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:57 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Danica 6 laps down xD 363. Baker posted: 09.30.2013 - 6:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Are you Indians fans from Ohio? Second straight Sundays with a Browns and Indians win for the first time since 2001 when it happened 3 straight!!! 364. Benjamin Lowe posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bill Belichick the personification of evil. 365. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 'Win the most races at Watkins Glen or Martinsville and I'll be more impressed. ' You know full and well the only guy that would ever be able to beat R. Petty's record at Martinsville is Dale Sr. That guy would destory all 4 bumped on the car to get that win. - The thing about Dover is that it has just become a battle of best car, clean air, and staying on the rails. Every since I started seeing races at dover, it's just a freaking on-rails race. The only time I've ever seen any hardcore passing in the Cup series is probably when the guy ahead really slows down for some reason. Add to this the clean air, and it's no suprise that JR lost the race. Heck, I can dominate a Dover race in Nascar 2005 Chase for the Cup. There's not that much difficulty. Just run the same line. I'm not saying Dover is a one-line track, but it's pretty dang close. 366. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Murb, Dale, Jr.'s been down much longer than you think, and I do believe part of it is that fire he had in the sports car at Sonoma in 2004, though that's not the only reason. You say that he's not been that good since he got to HMS in 2008. It actually goes farther back than that. He's only won four times since the start of the 2005 season, which was his first without Tony Eury, Sr. as his crew chief at DEI, which I think actually began to fall apart in 2004, but the effect on Dale, Jr.'s performance didn't begin to show until 2005. Those wins came in 2005 at Chicago, 2006 at Richmond, and the spring race at Michigan in both 2008 and 2012. That's not much at all in what's now nearly nine full seasons. Sure, I think the fire has something to do with it, but there are other factors involved. And let's not forget the concussions he suffered last year. I think the effects of those concussions may also have carried over to some of his runs this year, and I also wonder if Kasey Kahne's poor performance yesterday before his engine went south on him in the closing laps had anything to do with his crash at Loudon, which I believe did result in a concussion. 367. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Heck, I can dominate a Dover race in Nascar 2005 Chase for the Cup. There's not that much difficulty. Just run the same line. I'm not saying Dover is a one-line track, but it's pretty dang close." If we're going to go by video game experiences, then I stand by my assertion that Dover is a tough track. It's easily my weakest oval on NASCAR Thunder 2003, as I typically win all the "restrictor plate" races (although the cars spread out and drive in 1x1 packs from the 2nd lap until the checkered flag), Richmond races, Pocono races, and occasionally intermediate track races (I used my best car at "The All-Star" and the Coca-Cola Racing Family 600, winning the $750k award for The All-Star and the "Jackpot 5" million-dollar bonus at the 600), while I perform at a top 5 level at Martinsville and Bristol, and a top 10 level at every other track except Dover, where I always start around 15th and then lose at least 1 position every lap until pit stops come and I inevitably miss the entrance on the first try. I actually started a season on that game recently, and the spring Dover race was my first non-top 10, not because of any problems, but just poor performance. It's difficult to me because I have to approach the turns very differently from any other track. At most tracks, my strategy is to slow down just enough that I can hold the white line until the exit where I let the car drift high to accelerate sooner. When I try that at Dover, I inevitably end up in the wall as the turn radius rapidly decreases. The line you have to take around Dover to go fast is unique, and it widely varies throughout both a tire run and the race (video games don't accurately reflect either of these though). 368. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 12:53 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) I'm sorry, but Johnson does not get nearly enough credit for how good he is. He has dominated in arguably the most competitive era of NASCAR racing. He can win on any track, any day, in any given circumstance. I have absolutely no problem placing him in the same breath as other legends of the sport such as Earnhardt, Petty, Pearson, etc. He is absolutely that good. You can say Chad Knaus's setups are the reason for his success, but guess what? Knaus's setups are notoriously difficult to drive. No other driver in the HMS stable can drive them, except for...you guessed it, Johnson. Johnson can wheel a car better than any other driver in the garage. Its pretty commonly held sentiment among the drivers in the garage that that is absolutely the case. When a guy like Matt Kenseth goes on record as saying that Johnson is a legendary talent...who are we to question it? 369. David posted: 09.30.2013 - 1:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That should go over well... 370. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 09.30.2013 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MStall41, I near-fully agree with you. Albeit I do think that there are some shady deals in the background, just like with anything else. 371. JP88 posted: 09.30.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I hate when people say Jimmie isn't talented. I don't like him anymore than a lot of others but I do respect that he's a great driver. I think the equipment makes him even better but he still is an amazing driver. I'm sure like Gordon, in a few years after the championship and wins slow down people will like him a little more. BUT MAN DO I HATE HIM!!!! He couldn't slip up just once so Junior could get the win...aghhhh those last 20 laps was heartbreak for me. It looked like he had him that one time but couldn't keep the power up on the bottom and that was it. 372. Baker posted: 09.30.2013 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) No one is trying to say he is talentless but he is not legendary talented. He is not 60+ wins talented and he is not 5 straight talented. Most competitive era? What a joke. What are you 17? 373. JG24shouldbe5time posted: 09.30.2013 - 3:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "but a monkey could contend in an HMS car at Martinsville" Jocko Flocko anyone? lol. I turned on the race just in time to turn it off when I saw the 48 in victory lane. Reading the comments, I saw that this race was as bad as an under-cooked turkey, and/or as dry as an overcooked one. Looks like we have another JJ debate on hand, lol. Here's my spiel about Jimbo for today: Jimmie Johnson is good, yes. He will be a NASCAR legend that we're talking about for years. He is ARGUABLY in the company of Petty, Allison, Pearson, Earnhardt (and once he's done, Gordon). Here's the thing though, Jimmie Johnson is like the Yankees or the Green Bay Packers (or insert whatever organization you'd like). Successful teams with lots of titles and talent BUT with lots of bandwagon fans that like them simply because they're so successful. Fans that think they know it all and rub everyone else but their cohorts the wrong way (please, no one take too much offense to that, I'm just sharing my opinion. The Yanks, Pack and JJ48 are media darlings in their respective sports and we have to hear about how wonderful they are (or aren't)repeatedly. Difference is Jimmie's an individual with 12 seasons under his belt while the others are organizations with 100+ and 90 some years of history. Jimmie as an individual reminds me of someone like Derick Jeter or Aaron Rodgers (sticking with my Yankees and Packers themes). Again, good, great, arguably the tops in their sports. But like Rodgers (not so much Jeter), he comes off as arrogant when he's doing well and a whiner when not. People are sick of the "anointed one" status more than anything. I'll admit I liked Jimmie when he first broke into Sprint Cup. I thought it was cool he was the first guy since Cale to win 3 straight season titles (though he had the Chase...I'll leave it there). Someone else in a post way before mine seems to feel the same as I do. Before '06/'07, he was grateful and like-able. Ever since he started winning the titles, he's become seemingly arrogant and less like-able. As for Marty Reid, well that's too bad. Hopefully he lands on his feet. 374. SpeedWorld97 posted: 09.30.2013 - 3:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Does anyone else think Marty Reid left ESPN so he could try to go to NBC's coverage of either Cup or Nationwide when they gain the rights? As for who will replace him for IndyCar coverage, I really hope and think that Paul Page could be the guy. He is still under ESPN contract, even though a talented voice like his is stuck doing the hot dog contest. There are a few things, though, that could be preventing that. First, I remember reading something about the Hulman-George family and him not getting along with each other (something having to do with Paul covering CART events and the Indy 500 at the same time in the early 2000s). This is strange because he still covers the race yearly for IMS Radio Network. Also, ESPN has told Paul that the famous "Delta Force" music he used in Indy 500 intros would not be used anymore because it's "too far in the past" or something like that. At this point, however, I think anybody would be better than Todd Harris. 375. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 4:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Apparently the 48 had a "post race scare" in inspection yesterday after winning. Go figure. 376. ch posted: 09.30.2013 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Change: 40 - Moon Shine Attitude Attire (Had the Fire Camo on it) 377. AveryNH posted: 09.30.2013 - 4:36 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) NLA, I suck at dover in NT2003. I can dominate any other 1.5 mile track (texas, Atlanta, Charlotte, Las Vegas) or the short tracks (I won Martinsville on legend difficulty and 25% distance) same with flat tracks. Now plate tracks are hit or miss. I ran second at Daytona and finished 26th at dega because front row joe hates me for some reason. Dover on Iracing is incredibly difficult too. I can't run three laps without blowing my corner entry and parking my fusion in the fence. Back to real life, I too concur Johnson is an all time top ten talent, but I look at him sorta like how I look at the yankees (speaking as a redsox fan) I respect their past accomplishments and talent BUT, I hate their guts and root for them to fail consistently. Finally a word on Marty Reid. Say what you will about him constantly flubbing lines and forgetting lap counts and his broadcast partners. What he said on October 16, 2011 will stick with me forever. I returned home after a funeral for a fellow classmate of mine who had unfortunately taken her life. Looking for some solace from an awful day and week I turn on the indy car race only to find it in a red flag and well.. we know the rest. What he said at that broadcast's close "people ask me why I always say 'until we meet again.' Well because Goodbye is just to final. Goodbye Dan Wheldon." Has stuck with me since that day. Put aside his shortcomings as a play by play man, but as a hu-man I'll have the utmost respect. 378. Jarrett88fan posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) People are sick of the "anointed one" status Johnson has more than anything... and that is why he isn't "over" with the fans from a WWF/E perspective. "I'll admit I liked Jimmie when he first broke into Sprint Cup. I thought it was cool he was the first guy since Cale to win 3 straight season titles (though he had the Chase...I'll leave it there). Someone else in a post way before mine seems to feel the same as I do. Before '06/'07, he was grateful and like-able. Ever since he started winning the titles, he's become seemingly arrogant and less like-able." - That was me JG24shouldbe5time. I too remember Marty Reid's explanation of "until we meet again" on October 16, 2011 and it was likely his finest moment as a broadcaster striking the right tone. 379. Anonymous posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "You can say Chad Knaus's setups are the reason for his success, but guess what? Knaus's setups are notoriously difficult to drive. No other driver in the HMS stable can drive them, except for...you guessed it, Johnson. Johnson can wheel a car better than any other driver in the garage. Its pretty commonly held sentiment among the drivers in the garage that that is absolutely the case." The same can be said of every other driver in the sport, so that's one of the stupidest statements I've ever read in my life. 380. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Fair enough Baker, I'll bite.... Statistically speaking, what more proof do you need that Johnson is among the greats of our sport? Non-legendary drivers don't rack up 60+ wins and 5 straight championships. It just doesn't happen. The fans are just understandably blinded simply because its impossible for the masses to accept history when it is playing out in front of them. Its the same reason why US Presidents are not judged until at least 10 years after their last term. What Jimmie has done up to this point in his career has been utterly incredible, and it likely won't be appreciated by the masses until after his career is over. Unfortunate for sure, but thats how things go most of the time. Greatness often isnt recognized until long after it has become a fabric of history. As for your point about this not being the most competitive era of NASCAR...are you kidding me? The era of 2001-2010 (when JJ won his championships), right before teams started contracting, was the most stacked era of NASCAR EVER. 2011-2013 and 1996-2000 would be tied for second in my opinion. No era of NASCAR has seen this many competitive teams or this much money flying around. The drivers themselves are (for the most part, I'm looking at you Tony Stewart) finely tuned athletes who have literally been bred to drive race cars. The cars themselves offer different challenges than the cars of the 70s and 80s required. WHile the 70s/80s cars were probably more physically demanding, today's cars require every bit as much raw talent and mental know-how to drive. The Pearson's and Petty's and Allison's all drove against rather inferior competition on a week to week basis. Most of their competition was composed of cash-strapped racers who were nothing more than field fillers. The Johnsons and Gordons and Kenseths of the 2001-2010 routinely were up against 35-40 well-funded cars driven by drivers who are all professionals that have dedicated their entire lives just to that purpose. To me there is no comparison. The NASCAR that Johnson won his championships under was absolutely more competitive than the ones the legends competed under. I will defend that point until I am blue in the face. 381. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "The same can be said of every other driver in the sport, so that's one of the stupidest statements I've ever read in my life." Um, what? Can you not read? I clearly said that Knaus's setups are the most difficult in the garage to drive, and Johnson is the only one who can drive them at a winning level. What the hell is so hard to understand about that? 382. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2013 - 5:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) From an equipment standpoint, you're most likely right MStall41, but from a driver standpoint, the drivers of today, as a group, can't hold a candle to the ones from the mid 80s through the 90s. As I've mentioned numerous times, there are more good drivers in good equipment today, but there were far more great drivers back then. Of course, there were a handful of elite drivers in the era that began in 2001, but the caliber of drivers of this era doesn't even compare to the caliber of drivers from the previous era, and it's not even close. Guys like Geoff Bodine, Neil Bonnett, and Ernie Irvan, who all won in the teens in that era from the 80s through the 90s (Bonnett even won in the 70s), would have twice as many wins today (if not more), and one or more of those drivers may have won championships. The 80s and 90s had far more great drivers than you have now. There's no doubt that the number of good cars today is much higher, though that is due mainly to the 3 and 4-car teams you have now, but the depth in terms of great drivers was so much deeper back then, it's no even comparable. 383. Baker posted: 09.30.2013 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) By your very logic Tony Stewart should be ranked well ahead of guys like Elliott, Baker, Jarrett and ahead of Darrell Waltrip heck even Yarborough and Pearson using your logic. I mean 3 championships against the most stacked fields is easily more impressive than 3 against the rag tag era of Waltrip, Yarborough and Pearson. Shit I get flamed just for putting Tony Stewart in the top 15 let alone with those greats. 384. David posted: 09.30.2013 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If we're going to go by video game experiences, then I stand by my assertion that Dover is a tough track." "NLA, I suck at dover in NT2003. I can dominate any other 1.5 mile track (texas, Atlanta, Charlotte, Las Vegas) or the short tracks (I won Martinsville on legend difficulty and 25% distance) same with flat tracks. Now plate tracks are hit or miss. I ran second at Daytona and finished 26th at dega because front row joe hates me for some reason." "Dover on Iracing is incredibly difficult too. I can't run three laps without blowing my corner entry and parking my fusion in the fence." Dude, I DOMINATE Dover on NTG: Inside Line. And no, I don't have the difficulty set to 'easy'. 385. Anonymous posted: 09.30.2013 - 6:42 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "I clearly said that Knaus's setups are the most difficult in the garage to drive, and Johnson is the only one who can drive them at a winning level. What the hell is so hard to understand about that? " Which is clearly a lie. Jimmie Johnson would probably run 30th with Kurt Busch's setup, just like Kurt would run 30th with Jimmie's setup. Your statement is twisting an opinion into a fact so as to glorify something that is flat and dead. 386. NicoRosbergFan posted: 09.30.2013 - 6:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "By your very logic Tony Stewart should be ranked well ahead of guys like Elliott, Baker, Jarrett and ahead of Darrell Waltrip heck even Yarborough and Pearson using your logic. I mean 3 championships against the most stacked fields is easily more impressive than 3 against the rag tag era of Waltrip, Yarborough and Pearson. " Ha! In the least competitive era in NASCAR history as we currently stand, of course you get ragged. 387. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) I'd love to know what arbitrary basis some of you are using to say that today's drivers are somehow lesser than the drivers of yesteryear. Just a case of rose colored glasses at work if you ask me. Everything's ALWAYS better in the past, right? 388. 83andJoe posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) -Aric Almirola's 100th Cup start. -Ryan Truex's best career finish (3 starts) 389. Baker posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MStall41, So your are just going to ignore my assertion that Tony Stewart who has raced in the same era as Johnson is also unfairly underrated and should be ranked along side of yesterday's legends? I mean I am making that assertion based on your statements and opinions. Is he underrated or are you like every other NASCAR fan who twist things to make certain drivers look great then turn around and crap on Tony? 390. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MStall41(If you have time to answer) What is your opinion of the statement that has been made about Jimmie that he hates to be raced hard and if he raced against the hard nosed racers of yesteryear like Earnhardt and others he would get eaten up? I want to clarify that I am personally not sure whether I agree OR disagree with this statement and that while I don't like seeing the 48 win I respect your opinion and do think that some of the statements made here and otherwise about him are ridiculous( although that doesn't mean that I still don't feel my blood boil when he wins for some whatever reason). 391. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *"For whatever reason" 392. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Stewart is criminally underrated. His 3 championships are more impressive than Waltrip's in my opinion. I think Johnson, Gordon, Stewart, Kenseth, Keselowski, the Busch Brothers, and Edwards would've been championship caliber talents in the 70s and 80s. As for the question about JJ48's supposed "dislike" for being raced hard, I don't think it would mean he would've been "eaten up" back "in the day." Johnson has done plenty of hardcore nose-to-nose racing in his time, he may not "like" it, but theres plenty of evidence that shows his ability to race wheel-to-wheel with anyone (Martinsville 2007 anyone). He'd adapt like any other driver would. The older eras were more aggression-intensive. This era is more finesse-intensive. Top drivers would simply adapt as they see fit. By the same token, i think Dale Earnhardt probably wouldn't be as aggressive in this era as he was in previous era. Hopefully that makes sense. 393. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Comparing drivers across different eras in NASCAR is about as useful as comparing NASCAR drivers to Formula 1 drivers... completely different environments. Jimmie Johnson probably wouldn't be a 5-time champion in yesterday's NASCAR, and Richard Petty probably wouldn't be a 7-time champion in today's NASCAR. 394. BluesTravelerFan posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks, good points Mstall. 395. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd love to know what arbitrary basis some of you are using to say that today's drivers are somehow lesser than the drivers of yesteryear." They're lesser because most of them are either mental cases and/or get distracted by stupid things that hinder their success. Guys like Kyle Busch, Kevin Harvick, and Denny Hamlin all are capable of being champions, but they've let other problems get into their minds and it holds them back. Guys like Kurt Busch, Brad Keselowski, and Tony Stewart ARE champions who are capable of winning MORE championships, but they have the same problems as the other three. None of the old school guys ever let stupid things hold them back. They would be more than happy to ruffle feathers, but they wouldn't let stupid feuds and beefs hold them back like these new guys. If anything, they would use beefs with other drivers to their advantage and would push themselves harder because of it (EX: Earnhardt and Bodine). That's why many people don't consider Jimmie's success to be on par with some of the other legends. Earnhardt went up against a bunch of other legends in their prime. Ditto for Petty, who had to put up with Pearson and Allison. Jimmie? He's had to put up with a bunch of talented but distracted drivers. 396. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "EX: Earnhardt and Bodine" Actually, let me change this to Earnhardt and Rusty. I think that's a bit of a better example of two guys positively using a rivalry to push themselves harder. 397. Baker posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MStall41, I can respect your opinion since it goes the same way for all drivers of the era. I just cannot stand those who call Johnson or Kenseth underrated and put down Stewart's accomplishments. 398. JG24FanForever posted: 09.30.2013 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "JG24FF: The one who uses fakes stats and lies to "prove" JG is the greatest ever." I rate Pearson as the greatest ever, liar. 399. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Jimmie absolutely had to put up with legends. Gordon, Stewart, Kenseth, the Busch Brothers...these guys are all going to go down as legends someday. Its just hard for people to wrap their heads around that since these guys are making their history RIGHT NOW. No one ever thinks the current people in any sport are better than the greats. Its tough to wrap your head around it when you watch these guys play every week, see their mistakes every week, learn to hate them, etc. People only remember Petty, Allison, Pearson, etc. at their best. We don't remember the races they all blew, the times when they let their emotions rob them of performance. The same will go for the current crop of drivers. We'll look back at their best, not their worst. 400. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We'll look back at their best, not their worst." Considering that some of them have entire video libraries of their public meltdowns (the Busch Brothers namely), I'm not quite sure that that is entirely the case. 401. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm not denying that any of the current guys I've been talking about are talented. The Busch Brothers, Stewart, Harvick, Hamlin, all of them will be remembered for being good drivers (Stewart being a great driver). And yes, I do think you could take a few of them (Buschs, Stewart, Kenseth) and have them be competitive in the 70s or 80s. But overall, I just don't see how this current crop of drivers should be considered "The Most Competitive Of All Time" when you have the late 80s and early to mid 90s when Earnhardt, Rusty, Mark, Davey, Bill, Rudd, Bodine, Terry, and Gordon were all either in the middle or at the start of their primes. Like CJS was saying, the equipment may be the most competitive it's ever been, but there's no way in hell that this is the most competitive crop of drivers ever. 402. The Long Shot posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Face it, nowadays, the equipment almost always defines the driver, and the case in point would be Jimmie Johnson. He was absolutely terrible in that Busch Series ride for Stanley Herzog (9 top 10s in 2001), but give him Hendrick equipment and he's golden. Jeff Gordon wasn't that great of a Busch Series driver, either, but give him Hendrick's cars and engines, and look what happens. Johnson and Gordon are two of the most prime examples of equipment defining driving ability. Are they good drivers? Of course, but would they have won 9 total championships in mediocre equipment? Not likely. 403. MStall41 posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The top of today's lineup (the Johnsons/Stewarts/Gordons) is not necessarily what makes today's era the best. It's the second tier guys. In the past, you'd have 8-10 great drivers then the rest of the field was filled with the likes of total field fillers. Nowadays, you have 25-30 drivers who are all capable of winning. The middle of the field is so so so so much more competitive nowadays then it was in the 70s and 80s, and the top drivers of today are roughly comparable to those of yesteryear. Again, its just my opinion. I think its important not to just devalue the present simply because we are living in it. 404. JG24FanForever posted: 09.30.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "Jeff Gordon wasn't that great of a Busch Series driver, either, but give him Hendrick's cars and engines, and look what happens." Hendrick had 0 championships when Gordon came along. He was also criticized for making the switch from Ford to chevy, since it was seen as being a disadvantage since the Ford's were the strongest cars of the time. Gordon won 11 poles, 3 races and led over 1100 laps in 1992, in the Baby Ruth car. Your argument that Gordon was "no good" in the Busch series falls flat. Gordon is a master at tracks requiring real driving talent. 405. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2013 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) MStall41, as murb and I have said (and DSFF would certainly back me up on this one), the field of drivers was stacked much more from the mid 80s through the 90s than it is now, especially among the second-tier drivers. In fact, I believe the second-tier drivers of the 80s and 90s are at least as good as some of the top-tier drivers of today are. And murb, you brought up drivers such as Earnhardt, Rusty, Mark Martin, Davey Allison, Bill Elliott, Ricky Rudd, Geoff Bodine, Terry Labonte, and Jeff Gordon. Others you forgot include Tim Richmond (13 wins, including the Fircracker 400 and Southern 500 in 1986), Neil Bonnett (18 wins, including all wins in the 1979 Firecracker 400, 1981 Southren 500, and World 600 in 1982 and '83), Ernie Irvan (15 wins in an injury-shortened career, including all four plate races and three road course victories), Harry Gant (18 wins, including 2 Southern 500s and four consecutive wins in 1991), Dale Jarrett (32 wins, 1 championship, and victories in every major race except the Southern 500, including 3 Daytona 500s), Darrell Waltrip (84 wins, 3 championships) (how on Earth could you have forgotten DJ and DW?), Bobby Labonte (21 wins and the 2000 championship), and even Alan Kulwicki (1992 champion). That's why the 80s and 90s were the best in terms of number of great drivers. And that doesn't even include the legends that built the sport who were still competitive, including Richard Petty, Bobby Allison, Cale Yarborough, Buddy Baker, and Benny Parsons. The guys from the 80s and 90s had to battle against most, if not all of those others. That's the evidence that today's drivers, as a group, don't stack up against the drivers from the 80s and 90s, and never will. 406. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "how on Earth could you have forgotten DJ and DW" I did in fact forget DJ, but I didn't put Darrell on there because I was specifically talking about the late 80s and early to mid 90s, which was when Darrell was sort of on the beginning of his decline. But I guess he could be thrown in there as well since he had a couple good years in the late 80s with Hendrick. But yes, with all the other drivers you listed that I didn't, it only further proves the point. 407. JRacingFast posted: 09.30.2013 - 10:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The poor mans bet to replace Reid....At least for indy would be Allan Bestwick people i would like to see call the indy 500 -Paul Page -Paul Page -Bob Jenkins -Paul Page -ooh and Paul Page Lets just hope ESPN doesnt scre up and give someone terrible an opertunity are the job 408. kup posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Chase = Non-Sense = Bull-Shit Points standings after this race: Rank Driver Points Diff 1 Matt Kenseth 2149 2 Jimmie Johnson 2141 -8 3 Kyle Busch 2137 -12 4 Kevin Harvick 2110 -39 Non-'Chase' standings after this race: Rank Driver Points Diff 1 Jimmie Johnson 970 2 Matt Kenseth 941 -29 3 Kyle Busch 936 -34 4 Kevin Harvick 932 -38 BTW - Drivers NOT good for real title fight. Non-'Chase' standings after this race: 11 Ryan Newman 842 -128 - NOT 12 Joey Logano 831 -139 - NOT 13 Jamie McMurray 819 -151 14 Kasey Kahne 810 -160 - NOT 15 Brad Keselowski 799 -171 - NOT 16 Martin Truex, Jr. 781 -189 - NOT 409. Sean posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for who will replace him for IndyCar coverage, I really hope and think that Paul Page could be the guy. He is still under ESPN contract, even though a talented voice like his is stuck doing the hot dog contest. There are a few things, though, that could be preventing that. First, I remember reading something about the Hulman-George family and him not getting along with each other (something having to do with Paul covering CART events and the Indy 500 at the same time in the early 2000s). This is strange because he still covers the race yearly for IMS Radio Network. Also, ESPN has told Paul that the famous "Delta Force" music he used in Indy 500 intros would not be used anymore because it's "too far in the past" or something like that. At this point, however, I think anybody would be better than Todd Harris." I also want Page, but they're going to think he's too old and go for someone younger and hipper. When Bob Jenkins retired as the play-by-play guy for NBC Sports's IndyCar races after 2012, I remember reading Page offered to take over for him this year and was rebuffed, even though he'd still be better than Leigh Diffey, so he still seems to be interested, but I'm sure ESPN's priority will be appealing to a younger audience of non-fans, so I doubt Page will get it. My second choice would be even a bigger longshot - his CART booth partner from 1999-2001, Parker Johnstone. Johnstone was probably the most knowledgeable color commentator for any IndyCar races of the split era (at least as knowledgeable as Page and Jenkins, possibly even more), and although a former driver, I think he'd be equally effective as a play-by-play guy and he would REALLY embarrass Scott Goodyear and Eddie Cheever as an announcer, but Johnstone's a renaissance man who has done all kinds of things and seems to jump from one hobby to another every few years, and is now running a car dealership. I know he was on ESPN's NHRA coverage after his stint covering CART, but I guess he hasn't been on TV for a long time so that would be even more unlikely. And I don't buy that IndyCar split politics is the reason why Page was axed. He covered all CART and IRL races on ABC/ESPN from 1996-1997 with his IRL duties taking the priority, and Bob Varsha covering the CART races when there was a conflict. Varsha then did all the CART races in 1998 with Page doing the few IRL races that were on ABC/ESPN that year. Then Page moved back to the CART races for 1999-2001 with Bob Jenkins doing the IRL races (clearly preparing for ESPN losing their NASCAR coverage). Then after ESPN dumped CART, Page became the play-by-play guy and Jenkins became the host in 2002-2003 until Jenkins was fired, then Page had one more year in 2004 because he was fired. So he jumped back and forth covering both sides, his most recent duty before he got shunted to the NHRA was covering IRL races, and his IRL coverage tended to take a priority over his CART coverage. Not sure what he did to anger the Hulman-George family unless he made public statements criticizing the recent state of IndyCar racing like Bob Jenkins has done with NASCAR, but I don't remember Page doing so. Page was just a RACING guy. He covered everything: NASCAR, CART, IRL, IROC, IMSA, NHRA, World of Outlaws, Trans-Am (probably). He was hardly a loyalist to any sanctioning body and that was why he was one of the most cherished announcers, and I don't think he really alienated fans on either side of the split much because of that. No, Page was fired because he was viewed as too old and ESPN was looking for somebody younger and 'hipper', so in came Todd Harris, who had basically no knowledge and compared rookie Danica Patrick to Sally Ride and Amelia Earhart, being at least a quarter responsible for the Danica phenomenon that continues to plague us today. And I suspect Reid's replacement will be of that ilk and actually make us feel nostalgic for Reid. No idea who they'll pick for IndyCar, but for NASCAR, I'm sure they'll just have Bestwick do all the Nationwide races until ESPN's contract ends. 410. cjs3872 posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) JRacingFast, I doubt very seriously it would be Bestwick, especially since he may be in Charlotte that weekend calling the NNS race (assuming ESPN does the NNS races next year, as is currently planned). I really don't know who would call the Indianapolis 500 next year, though it could be someone from NBC Sports' commentating team. But they'll want someone who knows IndyCar racing there as the lead commentator, and Bestwick does not fit the job description. So I think we can count out any of ESPN's NASCAR commentators. After all, it's not like the old days where someone like Jim McKay or Keith Jackson (or Paul Page or Bob Jenkins, for that matter) could do both. But ABC/ESPN has about eight months to figure it out. The question is, would Page or Jenkins WANT to do it, even if they're offered the opportunity. 411. murb posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe they'll just have Lindsay Czarniak do the IndyCar races on ESPN/ABC. She was at the Indy 500 this year for them doing studio stuff, so maybe they'll just give her a shot at doing play by play. I don't know if she'd be any good or not, but she does come from a motorsports background and seems to be one of the few people at ESPN outside of the Nascar realm that really knows anything about motorsports. So maybe she would be worth a shot. 412. Sean posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) On the whole MStall/cjs debate, I think they both have some very good points. Jimmie Johnson is in my career top ten, but probably between 8th and 10th. I would not rank him over the drivers who have more wins/championships than him primarily because of his career stability, which very few drivers had before him. I agree with a "Hendrick discount" only in the sense that they have been the dominant team since 1995 most years and have an overwhelming advantage, but I would not discount their results due to their cheating because quite frankly most successful teams have cheated in some way dating back to the '50s and Carl Kiekhaefer. I have little respect for most of the factory teams in NASCAR history (Petty Enterprises and the Wood Brothers seem to be pretty clean, and MAYBE RCR was, considering Earnhardt didn't seem to have a horsepower advantage except on the plate tracks, but everything Childress has done since Earnhardt's death makes me doubt this. Almost all the owners capable of winning races these days seem to have no integrity (and this goes for other series too), so having a discount for Hendrick cheating is ignoring all the Roush cheating or Childress cheating or Penske cheating, etc... that also goes on. I would prefer to see no cheating, but I cannot buy arguments that ONLY Hendrick is doing this, therefore to discount Johnson for this is misguided. To discount him for always having the best car is completely valid, however). And quite frankly, considering the Kiekhaefer and Junior Johnson and Smokey Yunick and DiGard cheating, most drivers who have been successful have probably benefited from cheating in some way, except those who never really had premier rides (Harry Gant). I can't stand Hendrick either, but I think people put other owners on a pedestal for being clean when they're really not. I would agree with Matt that this is the most competitive era in NASCAR history in terms of the competitiveness of the cars, but not in terms of the competitiveness of the drivers. Matt's main argument regarding the drivers seems to be about drivers in this generation being physically fitter than any previous generation, which is correct, but this is subjective in the same way people talk about the cars being harder to drive in previous decade. I would prefer to look at how many legendary drivers are competing at a different time and IN THEIR PRIME rather than just say the present generation is superior because they're fitter or the previous generation is superior because they had to manhandle their cars. I agree that NASCAR was not very competitive from a team standpoint until the mid-to-late-'80s when the field was pretty much fully sponsored. Actually, I also agree with Matt that too many of today's drivers are being sold short to prop up other drivers. I have a loose definition of legend, and I would include many drivers others would not: Neil Bonnett, Ernie Irvan, Harry Gant, Geoff Bodine, Ricky Rudd, Matt Kenseth, the Busch brothers... Are they as legendary as Petty or Pearson? No, but I still consider them all legends, while most people seem to reject anybody with fewer than 40 wins and no championship, even if many of those drivers were better than some champions. I like Bobby Labonte, but I think he was worse than about 15 drivers who didn't win championships in the modern era, and when I hear people prop up someone like him or Jeff Burton or Sterling Marlin as a legend and act like Kyle Busch or Carl Edwards or Denny Hamlin aren't legends SOLELY because they didn't win championships, regardless of how much more versatile/talented they are (I acknowledge they're all more annoying) it REALLY irritates me. While there isn't anyone as good as Petty, Pearson, or Earnhardt in the current scene, I think the current set of drivers compares favorably beyond that. I think the main reason Johnson won so many titles is that he and Knaus understood how to play the chase game before everyone else caught up, and I think they'd only have about three titles (still great) without it, and some of the drivers considered lame and "not legendary" like Edwards, Harvick, etc... might very well have won full-season titles (I don't think they're worse drivers than Bobby Labonte, but Bobby was certainly more likable). Having said that, I would tend to agree with the DSFFs and cjses that the field was deepest (driver-wise) in the late '80s/early '90s, although I'd still say the field now is deeper than it usually was before that. 1985-1995 did have more legends competing in their prime than today did, but the main reason the fields were stronger is because of the quality of the mid-packers, something I completely disagree with Matt on. While I don't think the quality of the frontrunners has ever really declined (although there are weak periods and the early '80s and late '90s were two of the weakest, mainly because the previous generation's stars were fading before the next generation's stars emerged), the quality of the mid-packers has PLUMMETED. Usually, most of the late '80s/early '90s drivers (even the 20th-25th place drivers) had won something significant in a feeder series to make it to that point and made it to Winston Cup on their talent shown elsewhere. Yes, there are exceptions (Michael Waltrip, Bobby Hillin). The scrappy mid-tier that used to exist of very talented veteran drivers who were never given anything good to drive but did the most of their opportunities has practically evaporated. Where is today's Dick Trickle? Hut Stricklin? Rick Mast? Bobby Hamilton? Ricky Craven? (I guess it's Kurt Busch this year.) Almost everybody who makes it to Cup now is a silver-spoon driver who had powerful connections to Cup teams well before making it to Cup, regardless of whether they had any real accomplishments or not (Regan Smith, Aric Almirola...and yes, Smith has developed nicely but he had done basically nothing when he started in Cup) or whether their accomplishments were essentially bought for them because they had unbelievably superior equipment (Joey Logano, and yes, he has done a nice job this year as well). Now there have always been novelty drivers in Cup (I mentioned Waltrip and Hillin, although Hillin was okay for a while), but there are more and more of them - most of the open wheel drivers who arrived in Cup post Stewart, especially Danica Patrick, Christian Fittipaldi, Patrick Carpentier, and Max Papis, who weren't particularly good IndyCar drivers. In my opinion, the main thing today's field is lacking is the driver quality in the back half of the field. Journeymen like Trickle, Stricklin, and Mast were NOT dismissable in the same way equivalent mid-packers like Ragan, Mears, Ambrose on ovals, etc... are today. I'd say the top five drivers are worse, the 6th-15th best drivers are about the same as any past era, but the 16th-30th place drivers today are MUCH, MUCH worse than any era since the early '80s, and that is the main reason I view the talent pool as shallower today. In an era when the feeders are kind of dead, where the drivers who make it to Cup are almost predestined based on who signs to the right development deal with the right team at the right time, where talented drivers in the feeders without the connections have a MUCH harder time of making it, the good drivers may be just as good, but the bad drivers are much, much worse. But it's still not enough for me to leave Johnson and Gordon out of my top ten. 413. Sean posted: 09.30.2013 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Let me add one thing. I'm not saying that silver-spoon drivers are in and of themselves bad. The great drivers who have emerged 2000 were largely silver-spoon drivers. I'm just regretting that bad silver-spoon drivers like Casey Mears, David Ragan, and Paul Menard (all of whom I actually like, but still) have replaced gritty drivers like Hut Stricklin and Rick Mast from the past... Yeah, there are more competitive teams, but if the 3rd and 4th entries for marquee operations are taken by drivers like that as they frequently are, who cares if there are more competitive teams? Would a Mears, Ragan, or Menard be able to do what Kurt Busch is doing in the #78? Absolutely not. But the kind of journeyman mid-packers Cup had in the '90s would be more likely capable of doing something similar than a Casey Mears would... And I don't mean to bash Mears. I LIKE him, but still... 414. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jeff Gordon wasn't that great of a Busch Series driver, either, but give him Hendrick's cars and engines, and look what happens." I tend to think the best teams do the best job of developing their drivers and preparing them while in Cup. From a 1993 perspective, maybe Jeff Gordon was not the best driver for Hendrick, and maybe some of his Busch contemporaries were better, but when he was given the opportunity to develop in Cup, he rapidly improved to BECOME much better than any of his contemporaries were. Ditto Jimmie Johnson in 2002. Maybe somebody like Johnny Sauter or Scott Wimmer or whoever was a better driver at the time (I was certainly more impressed with Sauter and Wimmer at the time), but Johnson got the deal and developed himself while in Cup to the point that he became a much better driver than his Busch contemporaries... Basically, the drivers who make it to Cup and succeed now can be pretty random. In order to succeed, you need an offer from a big-time Cup team (you CANNOT succeed without one anymore), but which drivers end up developing while in Cup can be anyone's guess. At the start of 2002, Ryan Newman was easily a better driver than Jimmie Johnson, but Penske for whatever reason didn't give him the opportunities to develop whatever talent he had as Hendrick did. Johnson has certainly been a better driver than Newman lately. Eh, maybe I'm wrong on this, but it's what I think. 415. SpeedWorld97 posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Not sure what he did to anger the Hulman-George family unless he made public statements criticizing the recent state of IndyCar racing like Bob Jenkins has done with NASCAR, but I don't remember Page doing so." In 2003, he was highly critical about the fact that the IRL and Indy 500 struggled to have over 33 entries (I think there were only 35 entries that year). As a result the Hulman-George family was angry that he spoke out against the IRL. 416. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So when Bob Jenkins was defending the Indy 500 against its critics that year, he was basically attacking Page for stating the truth? Suddenly my respect for Jenkins as an IndyCar broadcaster went WAY down. Of course by then he had a very strong IRL bias. While Page covered both sides and didn't seem to have a preference, Jenkins was picked to broadcast the IRL's initial infomercial... I still have tremendous respect for Jenkins as a NASCAR announcer though. 417. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:26 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) And yeah, I know they did end up having 33 cars, but I'll always take an announcer who dares to criticize over one who seems to swallow the sanctioning body's garbage hook, line, and sinker. One of Darrell Waltrip's best moments was when he called out Junior for causing the Big One in the 2009 Daytona 500. One of the rare moments in recent NASCAR broadcasting that impressed me was the ESPN booth's reaction to the end of the Richmond race this year. But for Jenkins to call out Page like that, wow. 2003 was a year I wasn't watching any racing, so I was unaware of all this. 418. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:39 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Sean, that was my whole point. There's no doubt that there are more drivers in cars capable of winning than there were 25 years ago (though not as many as there were 10 years ago due to the mergers that took place from 2007-'10), but a good number of those drivers are not capable of winning today. And I think the car owners are finally beginning to figure that out. Remember that Rick Mast, Hut Stricklin, Dick Trickle, and others in that "sub-20th" place group nearly won races at tough tracks, and Stricklin once dominated the Southern 500 (in 1996) before overheating issues late in that race robbed him of a chance to win. I will say this. The top 3-5 drivers are close to equal to the top 3-5 drivers of the era I spoke of (1984-2000), but where the gap develops is in the second tier of drivers (about 6-15), and the third tier of drivers is vastly inferior to those from the 80s and 90s. The drivers in those parts of the field are not the caliber of those in the 17-year era I've been comparing it to. The drivers are undoubtedly fitter than they used to be, but that's like comparing today's MLB and NFL players to players from the 70s and 80s. They're bigger and stronger (often, but not entirely due to PEDs) and have more physical skills, but are not as good as a group as their predecessors because they're far, far worse fundamentally. The same applies to the drivers today below that first tier, but for a different reason. They have just as much, if not more talent, but for the most part, don't seem to have the desire, and that's what keeps them from joining that first tier. The guys in the second and third tiers back in the 80s and 90s had more desire than the guys today have, which is what holds them back. 419. Eric posted: 10.01.2013 - 12:45 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There is one thing about Jeff Gordon not being that great of Busch series driver. Jeff Gordon was getting used to stock cars since Jeff only had 11 starts in the Busch series after 1992. While Jeff Gordon went to Buck Baker's driving school, Jeff's background was in USAC and he was trained to be Indy car driver. Jeff's desire to race at Indy in Indy Cars growing up. Expecting a driver to go from open wheel to stock car and having great results isn't realistic in terms of levels like the Busch series. Jeff's first 2 first seasons in cup was also caused by his inexperience in Stock cars. What Jeff had was Ken Schrader and Terry Labonte helping Jeff out. Jeff needed Schrader and Terry in 1994. Tony Stewart didn't have a great Busch series/Nationwide series career either. Stewart used 1996 to 1998 as seasons to learn from racing in Busch series at a part time basis at the time. Stewart was doing the same transition as Gordon did expect Stewart was able to race in an Indy Car. Stewart also went to Buck Baker's Driving school like Jeff Gordon did. 420. Spen posted: 10.01.2013 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean: Andy Petree has pretty much admitted that they were cheating in September of '91. 421. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 1:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (4) Wow. I make a rare trip to the movie theatre to the IMAX screen to have my eardrums pounded by the greatness that is Metallica and I miss all this? Oh well, totally worth it. Keep Calm and Obey Your Master. I'll hit some points that jumped out at me. -We have to wait 10 years to judge presidents? So I have to wait until 2019 to say that Dubya's plans for war in the Middle East were a freaking disaster of bad planning? And I have to wait until 2027 to say Obama isn't fit to be the leader of ANYTHING? Thank goodness 1991 has passed so I can say just how stupid and useless Jimmy Carter was (on behalf of the Southeast, I'd like to apologize for him). -How would JJ fare against the real men that used to race? Let's put it this way: if he pulled that little stunt coming out of the pits he pulled on Kenseth on any of the multi time champions of yesteryear not named Terry Labonte, they'd still be pulling pieces of his car out of the fence. - Stewart is ineligible for any Top 15 list because, despite his legendary stats, he left a TON on the table being a headcase. If he had JJ's focus he'd have Earnhardt numbers. -This era of racers sucks. It may look arbitrarily stacked due to all the welfare rules of today (lucky dogs, wave arounds, deBriS cautions, IROC cars, etc). The most stacked era of legends in equipment capable of winning was the mid 80s to the mid 90s. Despite rules of the day that practically begged for winners to lap the field, it only happened 4 times from '86-'94. In the second to last race of '86, Earnhardt clinched his second title by winning a 500 mile Atlanta race where his closest competitors, Morgan Shepherd and Harry Gant, blew up in the last 50 miles. Also, with title rival Darrell blowing up early, Dale pushed that old Monte Carlo war tank as hard as he could for all 500 miles to drive home the point that he would be the driver to beat for the next 10 years. In the grueling attrition filled '87 World 600 Kyle Petty won by a lap. In 1991, during his Life Begins At 51 phase, Harry Gant won one of those old 500 mile marathon Dover races by a lap. And at North Wilkesboro, Geoff Bodine, a wheelman with a really good car underneath him that day, lapped the field with a 300+ lap green flag short track stretch. I think its safe to say we will NEVER see NASCAR let that happen again. Speaking of Gant, look at him in that stretch. He was the title runner up in '84, won 4 races in '85 the same season where Bill won 11 of the 28 races. Then two years later he wound up with the infamous FLOPPER award. Four years after that, he tied for the most wins in '91 including a modern era record tying 4 in a row stretch. That is how tough that era was. Earnhardt won 4 of the 5 titles from '90-'94, and had top 3 points finishes in 9 of 10 from '86-'95. The other season in that stretch? TWELFTH! Rusty went from runner up in '88 and champ in '89 to 13th in points in '92. Bill went from runner up in '87 and champ in '88 to 11th in '91. You slip just a tick back then and you go from perennial title contender to irrelevant. -I too would like to express my respect for Marty Reid as a person and somebody who truly loves racing. And yes, his words in Vegas in October 2011 could not have been any more perfect to sum up the shocking loss of a great person and racing champion. - Broadcast team for the 2014 Indy 500? Somebody who will let the racing tell the story. If it is like the previous 3 it will be EPIC so they don't need a super announcer. 422. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 1:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meant to add, on the topic of Rusty and Bill, they each went back to the runner up spot the season after their hitting the bottom. 423. Spen posted: 10.01.2013 - 3:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, I'm usually not one to bash, but how is the fact that drivers have off years a good thing for that era, and yet a bad thing about the current one? 424. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 10.01.2013 - 8:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drivers better in the 1980's and 1990's? I'll weigh in. NO. Drivers better now then they were in the 80's and 90's? NO. Maybe with some exceptions, I highly doubt that any 'legendary' driver form one era would be able to still have the 'legend' or even 'talented' title on them. Stewart and Kenseth might be the exception for this era, and I'll say that M. Martin, and Davey Allison could do the same. There can not be any true way of stacking these guys up. I will say this though. Dale E won the 1987 championship by 400 plus points, if memory serves right. That couldn't happen today. Does that speak to his driving/wheelman legacy, or a lack of competition that year? As opposed, 2002. Is that due to any one driver in that championship hunt not having any legacy? Or just a high amount of competition that year? In both cases, the answer would be neither. Dale Sr DOMINTAED the 1987 season because everything fell into place for him. DSFF can testify that really, Dale Sr won the 1987 season due to a dominant performance that no one could match for SO many reasons, some large, some small, Likewise, 2002. Marlin, Martin, JJ *in the years since*, Gordon, and Stewart had all established themselves as legends in one form or another at that point in time, Johnson aside. Things were just not falling into place for anyone to get the championship via 2003/1994/1987! Yes, Drivers from all ears are talented, for sure. But There is NO honest way we can compare evenly, and definitely say that one crop is better then another. Of course, because nostalgia conquers all in the minds of all, the majority, not everyone, just a majority, will say that the 80's through 90's era was the best crop of drivers anyone can come across. 425. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Any given race" means the guy is just as likely to run in the top-5 on a short as on a flat track as on a intermediate, superspeedway, etc (though you could nix some guys on road courses) Dangerous threats to win any given race today: Johnson, Kenseth, Busch, Stewart, Gordon (although he hasn't won this year), Harvick Dangerous threats to win any given race in the 90s: Earnhardt, Gordon, Martin, Jarrett, Labonte, Labonte, Burton, Allison, Gant, Rudd, Irvan, Bodine, Wallace, Stewart (only in 99), Waltrip (only 90-93) Dangerous threats to win any given race in the 80s: Earnhardt, Elliott, Wallace, Gant, Bonnett, Bodine, Allison, Allison, Yarborough, Petty, Rudd, Labonte, Baker, Richmond, Parsons Dangerous threats to win any given race in the 70s: Petty, Pearson, Allison, Yarborough, Waltrip, Isaac, Parsons, Baker, Hamilton (incredible numbers in just 1.5 years of racing), Foyt, Allison Dangerous threats to win any given race in the 60s: Petty, Pearson, Allison, Yarborugh, Petty (only 60-61), Baker, Jarrett, Johnson, Roberts, Smith, Paschal, Turner, Weatherly, Panch, Hutcherson, Yarbrough, Goldsmith, Dieringer, Foyt, Isaac, Lorenzen, White, Owens, Isaac, Dieringer Dangerous threats to win any given race in the 50s: Petty, Thomas, Baker, Flock, Flock, Paschal, Smith, Turner, Weatherly, Panch, Rathmann, Thompson, Welborn, Goldsmith, Moody Sorry, but every other era is more stacked than today. Even the guys who ran only a couple of years (Moody, Rathmann, Dieringer) were FAR more competitive than today's guys. Too many guys like Edwards and Hamlin have far more wins than they deserve from having fluke years where their car was the best and a monkey could win in it or being around 11 years (like Newman). 426. MStall41 posted: 10.01.2013 - 2:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looking at NRF's rather comprehensive list of "dangerous threats" to win, I think a few things about it stick out as patently unfair to the cuurent generation of drivers. A number of the guys listed in the 1980s generation have comparable numbers to guys who were left out of the current generation list. Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Kasey Kahne, a Second Busch, Joey Logano as of 2013, and Brad Keselowski would all absolutely fit into the list of "Dangerous Threat to win in today's generation". It seems that the drivers listed in past generations were given a pass for having off years while the drivers in the "current" list are not afforded that same luxury. Take Denny Hamlin for instance. I'm guessing he was left off of the lost due to his lackluster 2011 and 2013 seasons, but how can you discount his dominant multi-win 2009, 2010, and 2012 seasons? He's absolutely a guy who is a dangerous threat to win any given weekend on non-off-years. Following on the Denny Hamlin example, both Hamlin and Dale Earnhardt Jr have more wins over a shorter period of time than Geoff Bodine has, yet Bodine managed to make the "threat to win every weekend" list in two generational listings while Hamlin, Junior, and other guys with comparable or even better numbers are left conspicuously absent. Personally I think the current generation just gets a bad rap because there is a perception that the cars are easier to drive (which is true in some ways, not true in other ways). Also, the so-called "Political Correctness" era of mainstream NASCAR puts alot of today's drivers in an unfairly negative light which ultimately clouds fans perceptions of them. This is an interesting debate nonetheless, but I will stick by my guns. Today's drivers are every bit as competitive as the "glory days" drivers were. 427. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Good question Spen, allow me to elaborate. What I was getting at by mentioning how drivers like Dale, Rusty, Bill, and Harry could just fall off the face of the Earth for a year after years of championship contention then hop right back into the hunt the following year shows how stacked the fields were not only with great drivers but many teams with capable cars. Remember, this was before the era of IROC cars. There were multiple manufacturers (Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Buick) each of which was distinct. So if you slipped and lost speed for a year, you were toast. And it wasn't like today where the cars are so equal (except Hendrick's cars cause NASCAR leta them do whatever they want) that not being able to get your car 1/8" lower through the corners is the difference between the Top 5 and 25th. That is artificial "stacking". It was for real from the mid 80s to the mid 90s. With no artificial bunching of the cars, you could fall easily, but you could also make it back up. Because the drivers and teams were that good. They had no welfare help from NASCAR. That is why you have Bill with points finishes of 2nd (6 wins), 1st (6), 6th (3), 4th (1), 11th (1), and 2nd (5). Rusty with finishes of 2nd (6), 1st (6), 6th (2), 10th (2), 13th (1), 2nd (10), and 3rd (8). And Dale with his famous 1st, 1st, 12th, 1st, 1st. As for Dale in '87, yes, that was a perfect storm year for him amd, to me, shows just a glimpse of what he'd have been at that point on his career in today's era on a team like HMS or Gibbs. First off, RCR finally produced some horsepower that allowed him to contend on the big tracks, hence him finally getting his first wins at horsepower tracks Pocono and Michigan (he would win again once apiece at those tracks in his career). Of course he still didn't have the aero of the Fords to truly contend for wins at Daytona and Dega. Also, the competition was down that year. Tim Richmond was only able to compete in 8 races (winning twice). Darrell went to a new team and floundered initially while Terry took over the Junior Johnson ride and never clicked. They combined for only 2 wins so, although they fonished 3rd and 4th in points, neither was really a front runner. Rusty was still one year away from breaking out with the new Grand Prix, and The Rooster and Bud Moore were on the outs. Bobby was in the Stavolas undermanned cars amd Davey wasn't running a full schedule yet. Neil was trying to get RahMoc back up to speed, Benny was in the awkward Tim Richmond fill in role, Alan was still building his team, Harry had a million mechanical failures leading to him getting the FLOPPER award, and Bodine had just a horrible year (for him, everyone else really enjoyed his season that year). So basically his only competition was Bill Elliott. And if The Winston that year proved nothing else it was that Dale was more talented than Bill and he just plain wanted it more. He was more than willing to "sweep the leg". Bill never would. And so Dale feasted, winning 11 of the first 22 races, building a 608 point lead. And even though Bill won 3 of the final 4 races while Dale went winless over the last 7, Bill was still only able to knock about 110 points off his lead despite 2 engine failures for Dale (experimenting?). So put Dale on today's era with all the welfare rules to make sure his car is equal to the others in his prime and Jimmie's dominance would seem rather tame. Even with the chase, Jimmie usually only has one team to worry about each year. And nobody is willing to ruffle him for some reason (except Kurrt Busch and he REALLY got under Jimmie's skin, but his own bad behavior prevented him from challenging Jimmie in the points). Dale would feast on Jimmie. He would rattle him, bump him, throw a big un expected block, hell probably bump him on the pace laps just to get in his head. It would be beautiful. Then he'd get out and smile. You know that famous picture from the '99 Bristol Night Race that shows Terry at the start of his spin? You can see directly into Dale's car and see his face with his open face helmet. I swear if you take a close look at him he is clearly SMILING! And that is his good buddy Terry. They hunted together and fished in the Bahamas together. How much joy would he take in tormenting SoCal born, Manhattan living prima donna JJ? Look how much joy he took in pissing off Yankee prima donna Bodine. Jimmie would be in for it. 428. MStall41 posted: 10.01.2013 - 2:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I see the point you are trying to make, but couldn't you make the same exact argument about various drivers today? Denny Hamlin was a championship contender in 2010, then fell off the face of the Earth in 2011, then stormed back with another championship contending year in 2012. BradK is having a fall off the face of the Earth kind of year here in 2013 after a stellar 2012. The same thing happens in today's NASCAR, so I'm not sure that that argument holds water. In both the era you were referring too as well as today's era, the reason a good driver can fall off the face of the Earth is because of how competitive the field is. 429. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2013 - 2:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NicoRosbergFan, on your list of "dangerous threats to win any race in the 80s", why did you leave out the man who won the most races in the decade? Somehow, you forgot to list Darrell Waltrip on your 80s list, and he won more than anyone else during that decade. Looks like a grave omission to me. And Spen, you say that Andy Petree admitted he was cheating in 1991. Explain how, because if it was due to the unusual camber setup they used when they went on that remarkable steak of four wins in a row, which should have been five, then they were not cheating because that setup package was completely legal at that time. It wasn't until that race at Martinsville in the spring of 1992 when there was a plague of broken axles did that setup become illegal due to a rules change. 430. The Sound posted: 10.01.2013 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone interested if I were to conduct a simulated season between the best seasons of the best drivers of all time on NR2003? I have thought about this idea for a while, and I actually attempted it by creating a roster with 2013 drivers that reflected each driver's best year. Mark Martin ('98), Jeff Gordon ('98), and Jimmie Johnson ('07) were the class of the field. If you folks could all agree on a full field of drivers and a season, I could conduct a simulation for you. 431. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The biggest problem with NRF's argument (besides what Matt already stated) is that he is trying to compare a single year in time (2013) to previous DECADES. Let's compare the 2013 list to the '90s list. Gordon, Jarrett, J. Burton, and B. Labonte were not dangerous threats to win in the first half of the decade (sure, some of them may have had a few wins, but they were NOT weekly threats); Earnhardt (apart from plate tracks), Rudd, Irvan, Bodine, and Wallace weren't particularly dangerous threats to win most of the second half, at least relative to their career peaks. The implication of post 425 is that all those guys were dangerous threats to win at the exact same time, and while I DO agree with the general consensus that the '90s was deeper, that's an extremely unfair comparison. If you're going to count people like Irvan, Rudd, and Bodine as major threats to win in the late '90s at the tail end of their careers you have to include a LOT more drivers on the current list. And I am an Irvan, Rudd, and Bodine BOOSTER who thinks all three of those guys are MASSIVELY underrated by the NASCAR fan public, no less. You had many more names on the '60s list and I generally agree with them (although Curtis Turner? Besides that one Rockingham win, what did he do in that decade? Not much. Pete Hamilton and Darel Dieringer? Seem pretty minor considering some names you won't list today) but there was massive turnover in that decade due to many driver deaths and retirements, so it's hardly like there were 15 dangerous threats to win entered at every single race. To make this fairer, you have to compare an entire decade (so like 2004-2013 or whatever) and also count the number of years they were relevant. I'd say on superspeedways, the '50s and '60s were deeper, but on short tracks they were much more shallow. In the '70s and early '80s, NASCAR was much shallower than any time since. In the late '80s/early '90s it was its most deep (the '60s had more talents, but due to injuries/deaths/boycotts/retirements there were usually fewer top drivers competing simultaneously), in the late '90s it was pretty shallow, for most of the 2000s on it was deep at the top but shallow at the bottom. I do think you sell way too many of today's drivers short while hyping up equivalent drivers from the past. A proper overview would require mentioning how MANY years in each decade each driver was a dangerous threat to win. For instance Jimmie Johnson was a dangerous threat to win every year in the past 10. Dale Earnhardt was a dangerous threat to win every year in the '80s, but maybe not in the late '90s (I'd be much more likely to list Kahne, Edwards, Kurt Busch (I assume Kyle is the Busch you meant) or Keselowski as a dangerous threat to win than Gordon for right now also). If you're counting a bunch up of people who only had 1 or 2 really good years in a decade as you seem to be doing, there really is no excuse to leave the Edwards, Hamlins, and Keselowskis off (well, Hamlin's recent performance is HORRIFIC, but still...) I agree with you that NASCAR is not at its most deep, but I disagree with the methods of your analysis. 432. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NRF, I know one of your criticisms is that drivers today aren't very diverse in the sense that they only succeed at what you consider "hack tracks". If that's your argument, I think you have to remove some drivers from previous decades also. How often was Bobby Labonte a dangerous threat to win at tracks OTHER than Atlanta, Charlotte, and Michigan? Several wins, sure, but a lot of them at other tracks were pretty flukish. Buddy Baker? Most of today's stars are better on short tracks and road courses than he was. He was a bigger superspeedway specialist than many of the people you consider hacks today. 433. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The difference is nowadays it is basically the IROC Series with all cars being equal (except for NASCAR's factory team, HMS). That means 1/8" here or 1/16" there means all the difference in the world. The cars are what makes the difference today. Back then, teams had to find a LOT to get back up to speed. And with the rule book being more open and pretty much ever team up top doing things in house (as opposed to today where all Ford parts go through Roush, all Chevy stuff goes through HMS, and all Toyota stuff goes through TRD) you could work in a lot of different areas. David Pearson said it best. He is always saying how he hates today's rules because one quarter of a pound in or out of a tire makes such a big difference. He said in his day, the driver just had to find a different line or different braking and acceleration points. Now everything is so tight per the rulebook, that quarter pound is what makes the difference. Let's take Earnhardt at Darlington for example. From 1986-1990, he won 6 of the 10 races there. But in the three races there from the '91 Southern 500 through the '92 Southern 500 he ran terrible. The finishes were decent due to attrition, but in each one he just got lapped from running that far off the leader's pace. Then, in the 6 races from the Spring of '93 through the '95 Southern 500, he finished 1st, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd. For the same team. The only difference is his should be HOF crew chief Kirk Shelmerdine resigned and was replaced by should be HOF crew chief Andy Petree. I'm guessing they changed more than a quarter pound of air pressure between '92 and '93. And speaking of Andy, that 33 team was NOT cheating during their September '91 run. What they were doing was completely legal at the time. As cjs said, it would be a year before the rules would change. Big difference between that and the '97 TRex car and the "you can run it this week provided you blow the pit stop in qualifying but don't bring it back next week" stipulation. 434. BluesTravelerFan posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone here know anything further on the supposed "changes" NASCAR would try for the cars by 2014? I think I remember Mstall(I think it was a couple of months ago) bringing up Andy Graves's name and talking about some things NASCAR would try with downforce and the suspensions of the cars to help the aero problems. I know there is a test at Charlotte next week, but when I read about it they didn't mention anything specific, they just said "we will try some things". 435. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Today" meant the 2000s and 2010s... I forgot to specify that. I don't include "Carl Edwards, Denny Hamlin, Kasey Kahne, a Second Busch, Joey Logano as of 2013, and Brad Keselowski" because Edwards and Kahne are only threats on the speedways, I forgot Kurt, and Joey and Brad are seeming to be flukes. 436. murb posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyone interested if I were to conduct a simulated season between the best seasons of the best drivers of all time on NR2003?" That would be VERY interesting and fun. I say go for it. Or maybe, since the argument here is "today's drivers" vs "80's and 90's drivers" maybe just have it made up of the 30 or so best from those two generations. 437. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you folks could all agree on a full field of drivers and a season, I could conduct a simulation for you." I would pick the year when each driver had their most impressive overall performance, whether or not it was their best statistical performance. In most cases, that would match the year everyone else would pick, but in some cases I differ. I choose '64 for Ned Jarrett instead of '65 since he was similarly dominant with much more competition even if he didn't win the title. I choose '93 for Mark Martin instead of '98 because he was much more versatile that season and against deeper competition, while in '98 he tended to feast on cookie cutters in a year Roush was dominant on them (Chad Little 2nd at Texas!) I choose '09 for Jimmie Johnson instead of '07 because he seemed to dominate the season start-to-finish much more, was the most dominant in the actual races (tons of his '07 wins were pretty flukish, and he won the championship with the old points system as well), etc... In other words, I try to consider the entire context of a season before AUTOMATICALLY picking whatever LOOKS flashiest, picking the year I think the driver drove the best rather than just the year they accrued the best stats, although usually those will coincide. I could have done much MORE research on this than I did, admittedly... This is more or less who I would pick as the 43 greatest drivers in Cup history with a corresponding year. See what you can do with it. Red Byron - 1949 Curtis Turner - 1950 Fonty Flock - 1951 Herb Thomas - 1953 Tim Flock - 1955 Jim Paschal - 1955 Buck Baker - 1957 Fireball Roberts - 1958 Lee Petty - 1959 Rex White - 1960 Joe Weatherly - 1963 Ned Jarrett - 1964 Fred Lorenzen - 1964 Dick Hutcherson - 1965 Junior Johnson - 1965 Richard Petty - 1967 Bobby Isaac - 1969 Bobby Allison - 1972 Benny Parsons - 1973 David Pearson - 1973 Cale Yarborough - 1978 Neil Bonnett - 1981 Darrell Waltrip - 1981 Ricky Rudd - 1983 Terry Labonte - 1984 Bill Elliott - 1985 Tim Richmond - 1986 Dale Earnhardt - 1987 Geoff Bodine - 1990 Harry Gant - 1991 Davey Allison - 1992 Alan Kulwicki - 1992 Mark Martin - 1993 Rusty Wallace - 1993 Ernie Irvan - 1994 Dale Jarrett - 1997 Jeff Gordon - 1998 Kurt Busch - 2004 Tony Stewart - 2005 Kyle Busch - 2008 Jimmie Johnson - 2009 Denny Hamlin - 2010 Matt Kenseth - 2013 And even I feel I'm giving the modern drivers too short shrift... Is it rose-colored glasses that causes me to rank Bodine, Bonnett, Gant, Irvan, and Rudd higher than Burton, Edwards, Harvick, Junior, etc...? I don't think so. Almost all those drivers had what-if situations in their career that most modern drivers who have had stability haven't had. Similarly, going on raw stats, somebody could easily make cases for Dario Franchitti and Helio Castroneves as top 15 all-time IndyCar drivers, but Dario would probably make my all-time 26-car grid just barely and Helio would miss it. Their win totals are inflated by the split, that they managed to have a stable career with premier teams when so many drivers who were briefly superior to them instantly went to F1 (Zanardi, Montoya, da Matta), got injured/died (Moore, Zanardi), etc... And Dario's stint at Andretti-Green where he got badly outperformed by Kanaan and Wheldon and Helio being outperformed by all his teammates except for Briscoe (whom he outperformed everywhere) and Power (whom he outperformed only on ovals), causes me to rank them lower. I DO think I tend to rate modern drivers too lowly, but I do have a reason beyond nostalgia. Drivers from the past simply did not have the stability drivers today do. ALSO: Today's drivers aren't done yet. Edwards, Harvick, etc... still could crack my top 43. B. Labonte, J. Burton, Junior, Newman, etc...? Probably not. 438. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 4:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Actually, I take that back. Dario Franchitti > Greg Moore, but my point stands. Dario and Helio are probably the two most overrated drivers in IndyCar history because of the length of time they have spent in premier rides while other drivers simply haven't... 439. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If you folks could all agree on a full field of drivers and a season, I could conduct a simulation for you." Dude, YES! But finish the Chase simulation first. Here's your field (or suggestions for it, anyway): Richard Petty - 1967 or 1971 David Pearson - 1968 or 1973 Dale Earnhardt - 1987 Bobby Allison - 1971 or 1972 Herb Thomas - 1953 Lee Petty - 1959 Jeff Gordon - 1998 Cale Yarborough - 1977 Jimmie Johnson - 2007 Darrell Waltrip - 1981 --------------- (the rest I'm just sorting by win count) Rusty Wallace - 1993 (maybe 1988) Ned Jarrett - 1964 or 1965 Junior Johnson - 1965 Tony Stewart - 2005 Buck Baker - 1956 or 1957 (1954 was also pretty good) Bill Elliott - 1988 Mark Martin - 1990 or 1998 Tim Flock - 1955 Bobby Isaac - 1970 Fireball Roberts - 1957 or 1958 Dale Jarrett - 1999 Matt Kenseth - 2003 or 2006 (or this year, it's looking pretty darn good) K...K...Kyle Busscchh - 2008 or 2013 (leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, doesn't it?) Rex White - 1960 Fred Lorenzen - 1963 or 1964 ... yeah, the list goes on. "I have a loose definition of legend" By the way, what is the criteria for "legend" status on your website? I noticed that Jim Paschal was missing. 440. SpeedWorld97 posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:05 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Remember that "big announcement" that Phoenix Raceway was supposed to make today? Well it turns out that the announcement was that Phoenix International Raceway turns 50 years old next year. That's it. 441. MStall41 posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) BlueTravelersFan, to answer your question about Andy Graves and the Aero Push Project, yes, it is absolutely still in development and they nearly have the project completed. Toyota did most of the legwork on the project and outsourced some of the work to the other manufacturers. It was a highly collaborative project. NASCAR liked what they saw according to some people I have talked to and will be testing the new "anti-aero-push" package in the Charlotte test next week. The project has been kind of hush-hush because the NASCAR brass wants to makes sure this package actually works on track as well as it does on paper so as not to get the fans in a hyped up tizzy about something that hasn't been thoroughly tested. From what I've been told, however, Toyota actually did make some serious progress, and given proper testing the new aero package could be the magic bullet NASCAR has been looking for after all. Fingers crossed. 442. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, my own judgment. I know that's rather glib. Also, I classified most of those drivers years ago and have made very few updates since. At the time, I wasn't as impressed with Jim Paschal's career as I should have been. I should upgrade him (and Fonty Flock whom I probably only listed on 'Superstars' also). Certainly if I'm already listing Brad Keselowski and Ryan Hunter-Reay as legends, those two should be upgraded. What I do like about my lists is that I am including anybody who was legendary in ANY form of racing (Robby Gordon for his off-road stuff, even though his IndyCar career was mediocre and his Cup career was godawful, Scott Pruett and Max Papis for their sports car stuff, Marcos Ambrose for his V8 Supercar stuff, etc...) I think my 'legends' list with the addition of some engineers, chassis constructors, sanctioning body heads, etc... would make a much better international hall of fame than the one that exists. Having said that, there are tons of series I don't cover so a lot of equally legendary drivers (John Force! Jamie Whincup!) get short shrift there... But certainly, if I'm listing drivers I'm not even impressed by like Jenson Button and Bobby Labonte, I should be even more generous than I am. 443. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As opposed to trying to compare drivers throughout the history of the sport, I'd compare them within specific eras. These are the eras I would start with: 1949-1956 - Herb Thomas era 1957-1960 - Lee Petty era 1961-1963 - Joe Weatherly era 1964-1975 - Richard Petty era 1976-1980 - Cale Yarborough era 1981-1985 - Darrell Waltrip era 1986-1994 - Dale Earnhardt era 1995-2002 - Jeff Gordon era 2003-2013 - Jimmie Johnson era Jimmie Johnson era Top 5 drivers: 1. Jimmie Johnson 2. Tony Stewart 3. Matt Kenseth 4. Kyle Busch 5. Jeff Gordon Jeff Gordon era Top 5 drivers: 1. Jeff Gordon 2. Mark Martin 3. Dale Jarrett 4. Rusty Wallace 5. Bobby Labonte Dale Earnhardt era Top 5 drivers: 1. Dale Earnhardt 2. Rusty Wallace 3. Bill Elliott 4. Davey Allison 5. Darrell Waltrip Darrell Waltrip era Top 5 drivers: 1. Darrell Waltrip 2. Bobby Allison 3. Cale Yarborough 4. Bill Elliott 5. Dale Earnhardt Cale Yarborough era Top 5 drivers: 1. Cale Yarbourough 2. Darrell Waltrip 3. Richard Petty 4. David Pearson 5. Benny Parsons Richard Petty era Top 5 drivers: 1. Richard Petty 2. David Pearson 3. Bobby Allison 4. Bobby Isaac 5. Cale Yarborough Joe Weatherly era Top 5 drivers: 1. Joe Weatherly 2. Ned Jarrett 3. Richard Petty 4. Junior Johnson 5. Rex White Lee Petty era Top 5 drivers: 1. Lee Petty 2. Buck Baker 3. Fireball Roberts 4. Junior Johnson 5. Rex White Herb Thomas era Top 5 drivers: 1. Herb Thomas 2. Tim Flock 3. Lee Petty 4. Buck Baker 5. Fonty Flock 444. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Sean, that's why I used a 17-year period from 1984-2000, which co-incidentally happened to be the entirety of Dale, Sr.'s full-time run at RCR (no correlation here) because you had so many drivers that were "top-notchers" during that period. '84 was also the last year in which Benny Parsons and Richard Petty won races and Cale won his last the following year, and Bobby Allison also was winning races, winning five in that period, going through the rest of the 80s, through the 90s and including 2000. And I'll tackle a few names you mention in posts 431-432. First, Ricky Rudd began winning races before my mentioned period started and was winning races after it ended, and was a threat on almost any kind of track, except Daytona and Talladega, where he was jut never comfortable with the drafting style used there. The mere fact that his best finish at either of those two tracks came in 1981 says that louder than anything else. The same is true of Rusty until the late 90s, when he finally became a serious threat at Daytona and Talladega, though he never actually won there. Ernie Irvan and Geoff Bodine were rivers that could contend, but didn't for different reasons. Irvan didn't contend because of the race team he was with, as well as his head injures. In fact, the fact that he did as well as he did in that car shows you how good he was, even late in his career. Bodine proved that in an equal car, he could still mix it up with the best of them, even late in his career. After all, the fact that Bodine nearly won the Daytona 500 in 2002 in the Phoenix Racing car showed that. Bodine was the one that put that team on the map that day. If he had a good final restart, he might have won that race, and he was competitive in his other starts in that car on the plate tracks. Dale, Sr.'s problems in the latter half of the 90s goes back to that idiotic decision that Childress made when he decided not to have a crew chief for 1996. That, more any other single thing (including Earnhardt's hard crashes in 1996, '98, and '99), got that team behind, and it took years to catch up. Rusty was often strong, but was handicapped with one of the worst crew chiefs in the sport in Robin Pemberton, Rudd would have been a threat to win more often, but was handicapped by the fact that he was an owner-driver, and the same is true of Bill Elliott, who never won in the six years he was an owner-driver. Bobby Labonte was better than most people give him credit for. Sure he was always at his best on the high-speed tracks, which his brother Terry always seemed to struggle at, but you don't win at Martinsville, Dover (two more tracks Terry never won at), Pocono, and Rockingham by being a slouch, and his record of four consecutive top 3s at the Brickyard 400 from 1997-2000 (2-3-2-1) still stands. And Jeff Burton was better than most people here seem to think. He just got caught in the political mess at Roush Racing, which began in 2002, which was why he struggled there so badly in '02, '03, and '04 before he was let go. Roush simply didn't want him to succeed over his younger drivers, and the same was true of Mark Martin, and loyalty to Roush is the only reason he stayed there as long as he did. But you don't win at the tracks he won at (Loudon, Dover, Martinsville, Richmond, Darlington) by not being a top-tier driver. And Buddy Baker is a far better overall driver than many give him credit for, and he actually did win at Martinsville once, in 1979. Remember that he didn't always run the short tracks, because for most of his career, testing tires was more lucrative than racing the full circuit, so he became a tire test driver and only ran the full circuit sparingly until the mid 80s, so we don't know how many races he could have won had he run the full circuit as often as some of his contemporaries did. And there are many others I could mention, but won't. But the reason some of those drivers weren't always contenders to win every race was simply because of the depth of the driver pool they had to contend with 445. murb posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alright, here's my proposal for this simulation. 15 drivers from the 1985-1995 era that most of us agree is the best ever, and 15 drivers from the 2004-present Chase era. I think only these two generations would work best since they are the two we've been debating. Adding in guys from the 50s, 60s, and 70s seems like it would be a bit too much. So, here's my drivers from the 1985-1995 era, with their best year in parenthesis that should be used for their attributes or whatever. 1. -#3 Dale Earnhardt (1987) 2. -#25 Tim Richmond (1986) 3. -#9 Bill Elliott (1985) 4. -#17 Darrell Waltrip (1989 - Again, I'm using 1985-1995, so 1989 seems to be Darrell's best year from that decade.) 5. -#2 Rusty Wallace (1993) 6. -#33 Harry Gant (1991) 7. -#28 Davey Allison (1992) 8. -#6 Mark Martin (1993) 9. -#24 Jeff Gordon (1995 - Again, it's 1985-1995.) 10. -#5 Terry Labonte (1995) 11. -#15 Ricky Rudd (1986 - That seems to be his best overall year in this era - 2 wins, 11 top fives, 17 top tens.) 12. -#11 Geoff Bodine (1990) 13. -#28 Ernie Irvan (1994) 14. -#12 Neil Bonnett (1985) 15. -#18 Dale Jarrett (1993) Okay, and now for the 2004-present drivers and their best years. 1. -#48 Jimmie Johnson (2009 - I agree with Sean, I would use this year over 2007.) 2. -#20 Tony Stewart (2005) 3. -#97 Kurt Busch (2004) 4. -#99 Carl Edwards (2008) 5. -#2 Brad Keselowski (2012) 6. -#8 Dale Earnhardt Jr (2004) 7. -#18 Kyle Busch (2008) 8. -#11 Denny Hamlin (2010) 9. -#20 Matt Kenseth (2013) 10. -#29 Kevin Harvick (2010) 11. -#16 Greg Biffle (2005) 12. -#9 Kasey Kahne (2006) 13. -#12 Ryan Newman (2004 - It was tough to choose a year for him, but I chose 2004 because it was the year in this era where he had most wins and most top fives.) 14. -#15 Clint Bowyer (2012) 15. -#1 Jamie McMurray (2010 - This right here to me proves that this era isn't nearly as deep - I had no problems picking all 15 drivers for the 85-95 era, but I had to pick McMurray and his great 2010 season for the 15th and final spot because I just couldn't find anyone else, unless I'm idiotically forgetting someone obvious.) Anyway, that would be my choice for the sim, The Sound. The main argument here is "Which is the deeper field of drivers? The 80s and 90s or present day?" So this is what I would do. The 15 best from the stacked 1985-1995 era, and the 15 best from 2004-present (we'll call that the Chase Era I guess). Since we're arguing about these two eras, it's only appropriate that they be the only two eras that we have in the simulation. And please, if I forgot someone obvious from either generation, feel free to correct me. I seriously almost forgot Kyle Busch from this generation. I think I need a nap or something. 446. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) First off, my point was not that I was saying Bodine, Irvan, and Rudd were godawful in the late '90s. I watched then. I fully understand the circumstances that led them to struggle in their latter careers and I do think they mostly did a good job given how crappy their equipment was, but I still think relative to their PEAKS, they had declined independently of them driving worse cars. Perhaps I'm mostly responding to NRF's term "Dangerous threats to win any given race". The drivers I listed in the late '90s simply weren't. I understand WHY they weren't and I give those drivers credit for the adversity they faced (which few of today's drivers faced). It's the kind of reason I would list Bodine, Irvan, and Rudd on my 43 greatest drivers list while leaving off some modern drivers with comparable wins. But the fact remains - they weren't dangerous threats to win every single race by about 1998. And Geoff Bodine's 2002 Daytona 500 performance was an absolute fluke because almost all the good cars crashed. When Elliott Sadler is LEGITIMATELY RUNNING SECOND, I think that says it all. And yes, I know Sadler had other good runs at Daytona. Same deal for Earnhardt. Maybe it was mean and/or wrong for me to say Earnhardt and Wallace weren't threats to win every race, but in my opinion, they weren't. They were still good drivers, probably struggling with weaker equipment to some degree, but they were mostly good for a win or two year and were not really 'dangerous threats' (who was picking Earnhardt or Wallace to win championships by 1998?) I'm not saying Bobby or Burton sucked. They were good drivers, but they capitalized on driving in a shallow era when those two, Jarrett, Martin, and Gordon were really the only championship-caliber talents at their peak, while most of the others were declining. I just think the late '90s was a weak, weak time competition-wise where basically the Hendrick, Roush, Gibbs, and Yates teams were untouchable, and those teams all had questionable drivers on them, so those five drivers racked up win after win after win when nobody else was really threatening to win multiple races in a season. Now, there are many more drivers threatening to win multiple races in a season, so 20 wins when B. Labonte or J. Burton did it might be worth 10 or 15 now. Bobby is hurt because he only really had 2 good seasons and Burton is hurt because he was outperformed at some point by almost every one of his relevant teammates (Helio syndrome). Bobby and Burton were top-tier for their time, but in an era when Jeff Gordon had three straight 10-win seasons, that was a pretty shallow era. I'll admit you have a point on Baker. I'm certainly more impressed by superspeedway success in that era than in this one. 447. Sean posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "15. -#1 Jamie McMurray (2010 - This right here to me proves that this era isn't nearly as deep - I had no problems picking all 15 drivers for the 85-95 era, but I had to pick McMurray and his great 2010 season for the 15th and final spot because I just couldn't find anyone else, unless I'm idiotically forgetting someone obvious.)" It's between him, Burton, Mayfield(!), and Truex. Despite how much I've criticized him, I'd probably take Burton. McMurray's too random. 448. BluesTravelerFan posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks! Much obliged Mstall. 449. murb posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One other thing about this simulation too. We need to come up with an appropriate schedule. If we're gonna be putting old school against new school, then we need to have a nice mix of old school and new school tracks. Like, for old tracks, we could have North Wilkesboro, Rockingham, and maybe Riverside or something, and for new tracks we could have the snoozefest Kansas, Chicago, and Las Vegas speedways, since those types of tracks have been the cornerstone of this generation's schedules. I don't know if you have all of these tracks available on your sim, The Sound, but it would be awesome. 450. murb posted: 10.01.2013 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah Sean, I had it between McMurray's 2010 and Burton's 2006 for that final spot. I guess you could sort of go either way with it. 451. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "One other thing about this simulation too. We need to come up with an appropriate schedule. If we're gonna be putting old school against new school, then we need to have a nice mix of old school and new school tracks. Like, for old tracks, we could have North Wilkesboro, Rockingham, and maybe Riverside or something, and for new tracks we could have the snoozefest Kansas, Chicago, and Las Vegas speedways, since those types of tracks have been the cornerstone of this generation's schedules." I agree. I was going to mention that in my previous post, but the list of drivers was going to get long, so I cut it off and ended the post there. My initial thought was to have every track that has hosted at least 15 events in Cup history on the schedule once. That's 34 venues (Homestead has only hosted 14 to date, but will run their 15th this November). Here are those aforementioned tracks: Daytona International Speedway Martinsville Speedway Richmond International Raceway Darlington Raceway Charlotte Motor Speedway Atlanta Motor Speedway Bristol Motor Speedway North Wilkesboro Speedway Michigan International Speedway Dover International Speedway Talladega Superspeedway Rockingham Speedway Pocono Raceway Riverside International Raceway Columbia Speedway Music City Motorplex New Hampshire Motor Speedway Hickory Motor Speedway Asheville-Weaverville Speedway Phoenix International Raceway Orange Speedway Watkins Glen International Bowman Gray Stadium Greenville-Pickens Speedway Sonoma Raceway Texas Motor Speedway Auto Club Speedway Piedmont Interstate Fairgrounds Indianapolis Motor Speedway Langhorne Speedway Charlotte Fairgrounds Las Vegas Motor Speedway Kansas Speedway Homestead-Miami Speedway 452. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 6:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here are the tracks that have hosted races since 1985, per the debate: Kentucky Speedway Kansas Speedway Chicagoland Speedway Las Vegas Motor Speedway Texas Motor Speedway Auto Club Speedway Indianapolis Motor Speedway New Hampshire Motor Speedway Sonoma Raceway Phoenix International Raceway Pocono Raceway Michigan International Speedway Dover International Speedway Talladega Superspeedway Bristol Motor Speedway Charlotte Motor Speedway Atlanta Motor Speedway Daytona International Speedway Watkins Glen International Richmond International Raceway Darlington Raceway Martinsville Speedway Homestead-Miami Speedway Rockingham Speedway North Wilkesboro Speedway Riverside International Raceway 453. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 10.01.2013 - 6:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd probably take Jeff Burton's 2008 over Jamie McMurray's 2010 from the standpoint of a sim that doesn't differentiate much between a win at Daytona and a win at Kentucky. But regardless of random it may seem, McMurray's 2010 is something special and there are probably only 2-3 drivers who wouldn't trade their 2010s for his. 454. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Amid the debates that make this site so great, it has been announced that Germain Racing will be switching manufacturers next year, to Chevrolet. Also, Kyle Larson will make his debut at Charlotte. Justin Allgaier was originally slated to run that race, but will run next week at Kansas instead. 455. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 6:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Also, Kyle Larson will make his debut at Charlotte." I meant to add *in the #51*. 456. The Sound posted: 10.01.2013 - 7:16 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Thanks to all those expressing interest in the sim. I will be sure to finish the Chase simulation tonight! I would say that the idea of the 43 greatest drivers of all time appeals to me, but there is no reason we couldn't also do the era comparison as well. Remember, a project like this would take some time to set up, as I would need to download special cars, change their ratings, customize the schedule, and so on. But it can be done! The one issue with comparing drivers from all eras is that I have no idea how the ratings system may be influenced for someone like Richard Petty in the 60's or 70's. I BELIEVE, though am not certain, that the system accounts for field size and such when it makes the calculations. I may look into that tonight if I get the chance. The tracks would not be an issue. The selection of available tracks is amazingly deep. I already have tracks like Riverside and Wilkesboro, not to mention even some local tracks like Kalamazoo Speedway. And of course there's Bowman-Gray. 457. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 7:22 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) "the new aero package could be the magic bullet NASCAR has been looking for after all." Lord knows NASCAR needs it. Maybe they can introduce it to the public on November 22 this year, the 50th anniversary of the original magic bullet doing its work. Or at least what the government claims happened that day. Well, what the government will go back to claiming when they decide to go back to work. 458. The Sound posted: 10.01.2013 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 2013 Chase NR2003 Sim Chase Standings 1. Jeff Gordon 2331 2. Jimmie Johnson 2329 (-2) 3. Matt Kenseth 2327 (-4) 4. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 2325 (-6) 5. Kurt Busch 2321 (-10) 6. Carl Edwards 2319 (-12) 7. Joey Logano 2318 (-13) 8. Clint Bowyer 2306 (-25) 9. Kasey Kahne 2283 (-48) 10. Ryan Newman 2282 (-49) 11. Greg Biffle 2243 (-88) 12. Kyle Busch 2235 (-96) 13. Kevin Harvick 2233 (-98) Clinch Scenarios Both Gordon and Johnson would automatically become champion if they win the race. Kenseth could lead the most laps and win, thus also winning the tiebreaker by wins. Junior can win the race, lead the most laps, and Gordon would have to finish third or lower; Junior could tie with Johnson (if second) at that point and would lose the tiebreaker. Past these four, the clinch scenarios become more complicated, and I would rather just do the sim and worry about those scenarios if and when they happen. 459. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2013 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) But murb (#445), what's wrong with having drivers on both lists? After all, while you mentioned Mark Martin and Jeff Gordon on your list of best seasons from 1985-'95, they also need to have a place on that list, given who else you listed in the 2004-present. After all, Mark Martin's 2009 season was better than any season he had prior to 1995, except for '93, and Jeff Gordon had two seasons since 2004 that would also qualify, and in fact place fairly high. Gordon won five times in 2004, including wins at Daytona, Talladega, and Indy, as well as six wins in 2007, including wins in both races at Talladega, as well as his sixth Southern 500, and Charlotte. So while Martin and Gordon each had a year from your first listed era to qualify, each has had a season since 2004 good enough to outrank a number of those on your second list (Gordon has had two of them). (McMurray in 2010? And I think 2006 may have been Johnson's best overall season, even though there were seasons where he won more.) 460. The Long Shot posted: 10.01.2013 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also in the news: Leavine Family Racing has formed a Nationwide Series team. The team will run 2 races this year (Charlotte with Reed Sorenson; Texas with Michael McDowell) in preparation for what could be a full-time schedule next year (although that's just speculation. Also, ARCA driver Mason Mingus will make his Truck Series debut at Talladega in 2 weeks, driving for Win-Tron Racing in the #35 Chevrolet. The team, which ran two races last season with driver Matt Merrell, will also run the final two races of the year at Phoenix and Homestead. 461. murb posted: 10.01.2013 - 8:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "But murb (#445), what's wrong with having drivers on both lists?" It's for the NR2003 simulation that The Sound is planning on doing, and I'm not sure if you can have the more than one of the same driver in a race on there. And even if you can, it just makes more sense to have 15 different ones in each category. That's why I didn't have them on my 2004-present list. 462. The Sound posted: 10.01.2013 - 8:47 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) NR2003 Chase Race 10 Dale Earnhardt Jr. held off a valiant charge from Martin Truex Jr. over the final 20 laps to win the Ford 400 and Sprint Cup championship in walkoff fashion! His win broke the tie with Jeff Gordon. Top 10 1. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 2. Martin Truex Jr. 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Kurt Busch 5. Carl Edwards 6. Jimmie Johnson 7. Clint Bowyer 8. Jamie McMurray 9. Brad Keselowski 10. Jeff Burton Notables 12. Kevin Harvick 14. Matt Kenseth 16. Ryan Newman 19. Joey Logano 20. Kasey Kahne 28. Greg Biffle 29. Kyle Busch 40. Danica Patrick Final Chase Standings 1. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 2373 2. Jeff Gordon 2373 3. Jimmie Johnson 2368 (-5) 4. Kurt Busch 2361 (-12) 5. Carl Edwards 2359 (-14) 6. Matt Kenseth 2357 (-16) 7. Clint Bowyer 2344 (-29) 8. Joey Logano 2343 (-30) 9. Ryan Newman 2310 (-63) 10. Kasey Kahne 2308 (-65) 11. Kevin Harvick 2265 (-108) 12. Greg Biffle 2259 (-114) 13. Kyle Busch 2250 (-123) I kid you not, I did not manipulate the results in any way. 463. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1. Dale Earnhardt Jr. 2373 2. Jeff Gordon 2373" Lord help us... 464. Schroeder51 posted: 10.01.2013 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Dale Earnhardt, Jr. beating Jeff Gordon in a tiebreaker... Were this to actually happen in real life, the comments section on this website would implode, for better or for worse. 465. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (3) Good Lord, they'd be burning down the trailer parks if June won the title in a tiebreaker over Jeff. And all Satan worshippers better buy a big winter coat in the event they should die soon of you catch my drift. 466. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.01.2013 - 9:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) A Dale Jr Cup championship or a Baroness Cup win would cause me to move under a rock for the rest of my life. 467. The Sound posted: 10.01.2013 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think the reason Junior had a good Chase in the game is that the ratings formula tends to reward consistency. So Junior, who finishes in the 8th-12th range fairly frequently, performs as well as Johnson, who has Top 5s but also the occasional DNF. I can't explain Gordon's run, though. Probably his last gasp before retirement or something. 468. ch posted: 10.01.2013 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok, so Nelson Piquet just got fined $10,000 and placed on probation for using a three letter one word term that could be offensive to homosexuals on a comment of one of Parker Kligerman's photos. To sum it all up, Piquet called Kligerman gay and is fined... 469. Jarrett88fan posted: 10.01.2013 - 10:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Piquet used the slur in response to another Nationwide Series driver Parker Kligerman after he posted a picture of himself after a workout. The slur didn't seem to offend Kligerman, but being on social media, a fan saw the exchange and took a screen shot that eventually made its way to NASCAR who didn't take Piquet's use of a homophobic slur lightly." While the word has a disparaging and demeaning meaning, NASCAR went over into the authoritarian hemisphere by fining Piquet $10,000 and placed on probation "indefinitely"?????? 470. DB1995 posted: 10.01.2013 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Tim Cindric(Penske) tweeted that they are trying to put it together to get Ryan Blaney in the 48 at Phoenix 471. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Responding to several topics: Jimmie Johnson: I always thought of him as more of a Matt Kenseth caliber driver and I think he'd have 30+ wins and a title still if he drove for another good team like Matt does. He just wouldn't have the current number of wins he does or the amount of championships. The fact is, HMS has been dominating NASCAR since 1995 and a lot of their success is rightfully questioned due to the types of cheating violations they have recieved over the years. Every team gets busted for cheating at some point, yes, but the number of times HMS has been caught is just ridiculous. It looks like Gibbs, Roush and Penske's Cup championship(s) will be the rare times HMS does get beat. NASCAR games: I always thought NASCAR Thunder 2003 and Dirt to Daytona were the best out of all the console games that came out. I always thought those two were the most realistic, more so Dirt to Daytona since you can spin out from steering too hard like in real life. It also has a feature I wish other NASCAR games had: RACING ON DIRT! Feast or Famine seasons: It seems to always be interesting when a driver has a Feast or Famine season, and the list of the best years by drivers kind of inspired me to talk about it, especially after seeing Jamie McMurray's 2010 season on that list. That was truly the best FoF season to have (a Daytona 500 win, a runner up in the Coke 600, a Brickyard win and a win in the Fall Charlotte race). He kind of ran "Eh" a lot of weeks though, which is how that season earns the FoF label. But the most blatant FoF season since I started watching NASCAR was probably Jeremy Mayfield in 2000. He had two wins and it seemed he could have gotten a LOT more if not for so many engine failures, plus he had a big points fine and later in the year had to sit out two races due to injury. 472. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "7. -#28 Davey Allison (1992)" Random fact of the week: Davey Allison's third-place effort in 1991 scored 5088 points, which was ten more than the champion collected the following season. 473. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Allow me to clarify: I meant that Davey Allison scored more points in 1991 than Alan Kulwicki did in 1992 (5088 to 5078). So don't always automatically assume that Davey Allison's best season was 1992 just because he missed out on the championship in the final race. 474. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bah, screw it. Allison's best season probably was 1992 due to all the injuries he suffered and still toughing it out for a title-contending effort, but still don't discount 1991. "Tim Cindric(Penske) tweeted that they are trying to put it together to get Ryan Blaney in the 48 at Phoenix" If only it was the Cup #48... :) 475. Jim Davis posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "While the word has a disparaging and demeaning meaning, NASCAR went over into the authoritarian hemisphere by fining Piquet $10,000 and placed on probation "indefinitely"??????" Piquet came out somewhat better than Clements did earlier this year. He was fined, placed on probation, and has to undergo sensitivity training but at least he won't miss any races like Clements did. NASCAR, like almost every other high profile organization in the country, has little choice in all this. This is not a battle they want to fight; it's certainly not a battle they can win. But if you want to show some solidarity with Clements and Piquet and stand up for free expression by all means go to work tomorrow and start tossing around derogatory terms. 476. The Long Shot posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "While the word has a disparaging and demeaning meaning, NASCAR went over into the authoritarian hemisphere by fining Piquet $10,000 and placed on probation "indefinitely"??????" While I'm amazed that NASCAR took any action at all on this issue, I have absolutely no problem with it. People, if you don't agree with people being homosexual, that's fine, but don't be insulting about it. I am absolutely sickened by anybody who uses that word, and I've officially lost all respect for Piquet as a person. I think what NASCAR did to Piquet was rightfully done, but if I were in charge, he would be given the exact same penalty that Jeremy Clements was given after he made a racial slur back in February. 477. David posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My brain must be fried. It was actually 4088 points, and so forth... Next thing I'll be saying is that Jimmie Johnson was second in the points standings last year... 478. The Long Shot posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And by the way, Earnhardt Ganassi Racing said in their press release earlier today that Kyle Larson will still be running a full-time Nationwide Series schedule next year in addition to his full-time Cup schedule. Ummmm...whyyy?? 479. 18fan posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, I don't think it's a coincidence that the year that Jimmie got caught up in the feud with Kurt is the year that he posted his career worst win total and worst points finish, plus that year at New Hampshire he and Chad got in a nasty shouting match on the radio. 480. cjs3872 posted: 10.01.2013 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To get him more experience, The Long Shot. That's why I didn't like the idea of him being brought to the Cup Series next year in the first place. While I don't like the idea of having drivers run the full Nationwide Series (or whatever it's going to be called) and the Cup Series, a guy like Kyle Larson needs all the experience he can get at this stage of his career. That's why I brought up the 3 year/100 start limit for Cup drivers to be able to run as many NNS races as they want, because in Larson's situation, he actually needs that experience. That's also why I didn't have a problem with Brad Keselowski running both circuits full-time in 2010, or Carl Edwards doing so in 2005. Because at that time, they both needed to get more experience. But once a driver gets 3 years or 100 starts under his belt in the Cup Series, then a limit on how many lower division races should be mandated if he's still racing full-time in the Cup Series. That limit would be no more than one-third of the races on the schedule (11 or 12 NNS races and/or 8 Truck Series races, based on the length of their schedules). 481. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So don't always automatically assume that Davey Allison's best season was 1992 just because he missed out on the championship in the final race." I just look at the fact that in 1992 he had more top fives and top tens than he had in any of his other seasons, and he also matched his '91 win total with 5 wins. So he might have scored more points in 1991, but to me it's just a no brainer that 1992 was his overall best season. 482. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for Piquet, pretty stupid to comment that on a public social networking site. And as for Larson's NNS schedule next year, I had read that he was just gonna do all the companion races. I wouldn't be opposed to that as more seat time surely won't hurt a young driver like him, but I do think it is pretty dumb to have him run the ENTIRE NNS schedule, if the press release Long Shot is talking about is accurate. 483. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "So he might have scored more points in 1991, but to me it's just a no brainer that 1992 was his overall best season." However (and I'm not arguing with you, just playing devil's advocate), he did have a better average finish in 1991. With two different crew chiefs, I should add (Jake Elder and Larry McReynolds). 484. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Agreed, murb. And the press release was made through Earnhardt Ganassi Racing, so I would assume it is accurate. Also being confirmed is that Target will sponsor Larson's #51 for next weekend's Cup and Nationwide races at Charlotte as well as for the Cup race at Martinsville. 485. 83andJoe posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >To sum it all up, Piquet called Kligerman gay and is fined... I believe the three-letter word in question likely started with "F". 486. 18fan posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two Target cars then, maybe one of them will be the inverse paint scheme, like the original Ganassi #41 driven by Spencer and Mears. 487. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Agreed, murb. And the press release was made through Earnhardt Ganassi Racing, so I would assume it is accurate. Also being confirmed is that Target will sponsor Larson's #51 for next weekend's Cup and Nationwide races at Charlotte as well as for the Cup race at Martinsville." Well, if they reported that Target is sponsoring those cars next weekend at Charlotte, then there would be reason to doubt the authenticity of the first statement...considering that Kansas is next weekend, not Charlotte. :) 488. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 12:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I always refer to the upcoming weekend as "this weekend" and the one after that as "next weekend", so that wasn't a mix-up by me. Nevertheless, perhaps I should go to bed. The dual forces of tiredness and illness are taking their tolls on me. 489. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:08 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing that concerns me most when it comes to Kyle Larson moving into Cup is the owner he will be driving for. In my opinion, Ganassi's one of the worst when it comes to developing a driver and Larson is going to need all the developing he can get. 490. Sean posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David, I chose 1992 for Davey Allison primarily because he managed to nearly win the championship despite many injuries (I'd probably pick Niki Lauda's 1976 as better than any of his championship seasons for the same reason). Also, that was the only season Davey was ever really in a championship battle, leading the points standings for half the season. 491. Paul posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Long Shot (#478), that's old news. Turner Scott Motorsports announced that Kyle Larson would be running all the companion Nationwide events in 2014 around the time that EGR announced that Larson would be driving the #42 Cup car next season. As for the "why?" portion of your post, if Larson wasn't competing in Cup and Nationwide next season, he'd be racing sprint cars and late models throughout the week, and apparently NASCAR drivers who run sprint car races have death wishes (see Tony Stewart), so filling his schedule up with NASCAR events is probably the safest way to go. And for the record, I have no problem with Cup drivers running a lot of Nationwide/Truck races so long as they're not racing with elite Cup teams (i.e. Kyle Busch with JGR, Brad and Joey with Penske). Turner Scott Motorsports isn't an elite Cup team (Heck, they're barely out of thr starting gate.), therefore I have no problem with this. I would feel the same way if, for example, Kasey Kahne or Dale Earnhardt, Jr. were to run a semi-full Nationwide schedule for JR Motorsports since that isn't a Cup team. 492. Paul posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for the Piquet penalty, I just wish NASCAR was more fair when giving out penalties more similar infractions. If Jeremy Clements received a 2-race suspension for his derogatory slur, Piquet should have as well. Personally, I wouldn't have suspended either driver (Fine? Yes. Suspension? No.), but if they're going to suspend one driver, they should suspend them all for similar infractions. 493. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.02.2013 - 4:56 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd guess he said "f@g" just because "gay" isn't offensive to gay people; if it was, why would the G in LGBTQ stand for "gay"? Hmmmmm? 494. Scott. B posted: 10.02.2013 - 5:38 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #475: This is not the same as one of us tossing around derogatory terms in the workplace. The drivers are not employees of NASCAR. I bring that up only because it's a point NASCAR has historically used when it's to their advantage to do so. If NASCAR wants to take on the role of enforcing political correctness, they should be consistant about it. They've only enforced it twice, and already we see a discrepancy. This will get real interesting the first time a crew member or other non-driver get punished, which is something NASCAR will eventually have to address. After that, it'll be fan behavior that would be the final area to clean up. I'm not sure NASCAR is committed enough to do that. 495. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 7:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And by the way, Earnhardt Ganassi Racing said in their press release earlier today that Kyle Larson will still be running a full-time Nationwide Series schedule next year in addition to his full-time Cup schedule. Ummmm...whyyy??" So we can whine about another Cup driver coming down to bully the Nationwide Series, what do you think? It's Chip Ganassi, who knows? 496. ch posted: 10.02.2013 - 7:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, he probably did say that, but still essentally called him gay. Kind of like saying someone's an idiot is calling them stupid. 497. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm actually excited for that sim! As long as you have Riverside, N. Wilksboror, Rockingham, Kentucky, and Kansas, I'm satisfied with the schedule. I do agree with the set ups for drivers. 498. 83andJoe posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:17 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I believe, Paul, that the reason it was only a fine instead of a suspension like Clements got, is because it was on social media, not speedway property. 499. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like Nelson Piquet Jr. and I've always wanted him to succeed, but he deserves to be fined unless he grew up learning British English and was referring to Kligerman as a cigarette (which isn't all that out of the question I guess). As for the Jeremy Clements deal earlier in the year, his comments weren't even public and no one would have known what was said if NASCAR didn't make a big deal out of it, so they sort created the controversy they were trying to avoid. I had always thought the suspension was harsh but given his comments were made privately, his penalty at worst should have been the same as Piquet's. 500. NoLongerAnonymous posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, NASCAR penalized the #22 Nationwide team 6 owner points and fined the crew chief $10,000 after the car failed tech. Wasn't Penske's organization supposed to be on probation after what they tried to orchestrate at Richmond? It seems their penalty should be harsher than the typical one since they are on probation. 501. JG24FanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:45 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) For lovers of John force: He won his 136th career race this past weekend, moving within 6 points of the championship lead, with 3 races to go. John force is 64 years old, and is on the verge of making a run at his 16th Funny Car World Championship. 502. We need more Onion posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:31 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Interestingly, Piquet himself was labeled gay by Briatore just after he spilled the Singapore 'Crashgate' information. I find it ironic that he calls another driver a phag. However, he should have got the same penalty as Clements, even though it's total bull. At least Clements came out (NOT a pun) intact from the drama. @501, You know what is the thing I like the most about John Force? His daughters. Mostly Ashley and Courtney :) But to be on topic, Johnny Gray, who is 60, is also having a great season with a shot at the title. 503. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'd guess he said "f@g" just because "gay" isn't offensive to gay people; if it was, why would the G in LGBTQ stand for "gay"?" My guess is he said "the other F-word", but you also have to realize that using the word "gay" out of context is offensive to homosexual people. For example: "That was so gay." That is using "gay" in a derogatory sense, which, to me, is just as bad as saying "f@g". "The Long Shot (#478), that's old news. Turner Scott Motorsports announced that Kyle Larson would be running all the companion Nationwide events in 2014 around the time that EGR announced that Larson would be driving the #42 Cup car next season." Aye, but this press release said that Larson would be running the full Nationwide schedule: "Earnhardt Ganassi Racing with Felix Sabates (EGR) announces today that young driving sensation, Kyle Larson, will make his NASCAR Sprint Cup Series (NSCS) debut for Team Target in the Phoenix Racing No. 51 Target Chevrolet SS at Charlotte Motor Speedway on Oct. 12. In addition, he will run the NSCS race in Martinsville in the No. 51 Target Chevrolet SS on Oct. 27. In August, EGR announced that Larson would take over the reins of the No. 42 Target Chevy SS beginning in 2014. Larson, who is currently running full-time in the NASCAR Nationwide Series (NNS), will also compete in the NNS race at Charlotte in the No. 32 Target Camaro for Turner Scott Motorsports. *Next season, the 2012 NASCAR K&N Pro Series East (NKNPSE) Champion, will continue to run full-time in the NNS and compete for Rookie of the Year honors in the NSCS in the No. 42 Target Chevy SS.*" Of course, they could have meant "full-time in all the companion events", which I would totally understand and would be just fine with. If they did mean "running a full Nationwide Series schedule", then I'm scratching my head as to why they'd make him do that. I get the fact that he needs experience, but if you run full-time in 2 separate series, you can't really set your focus on a particular one. 504. jabber1990 posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) about Larson running at Charlotte does anyone remember what happened the last time a Ganassi Driver ran his first race at Charlotte and we were all "oh no its too early, anyone but him" i'm not saying it will happen, if it does we'll all have to eat our words I was right about Kentucky, the race was better than we expected (for the record im not saying he'll win, but if he gets a good finish then we'll have to eat our words) 505. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:53 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "does anyone remember what happened the last time a Ganassi Driver ran his first race at Charlotte and we were all "oh no its too early, anyone but him"" Technically, it was his second race, but I get your point. However, you have to remember that the #40 Ganassi ride had won on 2 previous occasions that year with Sterling Marlin, whereas the #51 team hasn't even finished inside the top 20 since the Coca-Cola 600. 506. Zackary Shawn posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:01 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) Bubba Wallace is on Auburn's campus today. Managed to get a free ticket to both the truck and Sprint Cup races at Talladega, a free infield pass, and free transportation there and back. I'd say it was a pretty good day. 507. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ You lucky SOB. 508. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) YOU LUCKY SON OF A JACKAL, YOU. 509. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2013 has been a forgettable year for Penske Racing, I think it is safe to say that much. Their defending champ misses the Chase altogether due to poor performances at Fontana, Charlotte and Indy (deep inside I'd like to blame the blown engines Brad had while running well, but if he had stepped it up in other races he would've been safely in the Chase), they get hammered with a points penalty after Texas and gets busted again at Dover, and now their Nationwide car has been busted. Unfortunately, this will rightfully get them the "cheating" tag this year. 510. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) John Force kicks so much ass. I have always admired him. To be 64 and still be a contender for the championship and still be winning and still have so much passion for racing and success after all his sucess, that is a racer. Perhaps The Ultimate Racer. Still racing mid 60s. 136 wins. 15 championships and hopefully counting. Who do you guys see as The Ultimate Racer? 511. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 1:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Their defending champ misses the Chase altogether due to poor performances at Fontana, Charlotte and Indy (deep inside I'd like to blame the blown engines Brad had while running well, but if he had stepped it up in other races he would've been safely in the Chase)" Exactly. I hate when people say stuff like "Dale lost the title in '89 cause he blew up at Charlotte" or "Jeff lost the title in '96 cause he had a mechanical failure at Charlotte". The truth is each lost the title cause they failed to step it up like a champion should in crucial stretch races (Martinsville for Dale amd Rockingham for Jeff). Bad luck happens. What you do when dodge the bullets is what truly matters. 512. Sean posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "2013 has been a forgettable year for Penske Racing, I think it is safe to say that much." If Helio finally gets his title (which is probable), Penske won't care. He won't even care that Helio's had about 5 better seasons than this where he didn't win the title. Really, I'm not surprised because Penske's Cup team changed manufacturers. While Penske (and Brad specifically) got 100% of the attention from Dodge, now Penske and Roush have to share Ford's attention, and Ford has tended to prefer Roush for the last decade, and in a season when Roush took a hit thanks to losing Matt Kenseth and Ricky Stenhouse being more of a bust than any of us expected, it's no wonder Penske is doing probably even worse. 513. jabber1990 posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) what I meant was it was his first race at Charlotte, that's what I meant and looks like Bubba Wallace has a lifelong fan! 514. 18fan posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And the #40 car McMurray drove was a championship-caliber team that year. I found something interesting today. During Dale Earnhardt's 10 race Daytona Duel win streak, he was in the 2nd duel and therefore started either 2nd or 4th in 8 of those 10 years. 515. jabber1990 posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) no matter what made Penske would have gone to it would have been the same result I am a ford guy, BUT even I think these Fords suck. if Penske switched to Chevy they'd still be low on the Totem Pole, Penske is good friends with Hendrick so they'd be running HMS Engines unless they build their own. who gets the best HMS stuff? HMS. Penske would be greater than or Equal to SHR because Penske actually has more engineers 516. jabber1990 posted: 10.02.2013 - 2:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) sorry, what I meant is Dodge did half the work for Penske, Chevy wouldn't do any of it for them Roush does a lot of the work for Penske but leaves Penske to figure it out on their own then must report their findings to Roush 517. MStall41 posted: 10.02.2013 - 3:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I see Ford roaring back with a big year in 2014. I think Logano and Keselowski have the potential to be championship contenders. I think Gibbs will slump a bit once Hamlin's back heals and they have to spread their resources over 3 teams instead of 2 (which is essentially what theyve done in 2013). Hendrick will be strong as per usual. I think 2014 will look a lot like 2010 insofar as many teams will be equally competitive, unlike 2013 which has been a two team domination much like 2008 was. 518. SpeedWorld97 posted: 10.02.2013 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ha! I just got an alert from my ESPN ScoreCenter app titled "Watch Danica Patrick break down her season in a NASCAR Now segment." What else can she say besides "I'm driving in the best, fully-funded car out there and I'm still barely finishing above 30th place." "Bubba Wallace is on Auburn's campus today. Managed to get a free ticket to both the truck and Sprint Cup races at Talladega, a free infield pass, and free transportation there and back. I'd say it was a pretty good day." That's so cool to hear. I'm currently in the process of getting tickets to the Martinsville race later this month. I'm looking forward to my first time at the track. 519. Jim Davis posted: 10.02.2013 - 3:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I see Ford roaring back with a big year in 2014. I think Logano and Keselowski have the potential to be championship contenders." It's interesting that although Miller has resigned with Penske and the 2 car they're only the primary sponsor for 24 races next year. 520. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "I'm currently in the process of getting tickets to the Martinsville race later this month. I'm looking forward to my first time at the track." Your assignment: If Jimmie Johnson is leading with less than 150 laps to go, track down the 29 year-old male in Dale Earnhardt and Brad Keselowski gear and take him out. 521. SpeedWorld97 posted: 10.02.2013 - 4:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Your assignment: If Jimmie Johnson is leading with less than 150 laps to go, track down the 29 year-old male in Dale Earnhardt and Brad Keselowski gear and take him out." Lol, except DSFF would not be too pleased to see me in Dale Jr. gear. 522. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 5:29 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Lol, except DSFF would not be too pleased to see me in Dale Jr. gear." That's why you sneak up behind him, incapacitate him with a blackjack (preferably, bearing #24), and drag him outside the track premises. 523. Kubica fan Ireland posted: 10.02.2013 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Miller have signed an extension thru 2017 as has Keselowski.This is in line with many driver sponsorship relationships where both contracts run concurrently, like Johnson and Lowes to 2015 and Hamlin and Fedex. They are only sponsoring 24 races as Roger asked them to give up some races for a longer-term commitment. It also tells me that he has a sponsor in the works that wants to sign up part time. It seems no company can afford to sponsor the entire schedule anymore as Napa and now Miller are either downsizing or leaving. Huge companies like Home Depot only do half the schedule now. Off the top of my head only shell pennzoil Fedex (who give 2 races away) Lowes and AArons sponsor the entire schedule for next year and if you want Furniture Row. Also Nico Rosberg fan I know we usually differ when it comes to Johnson, but I really liked your series on the open wheel categories and how you would homogenise the ladder to f1. When you comment on open wheel, Indycar and F1 and all non Jimmie Johnson related topics you come across as a passionate and knowledgeable racing fan 524. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 6:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lol, except DSFF would not be too pleased to see me in Dale Jr. gear." Considering that you would be beating him bloody with a Jeff Gordon-themed blackjack, I hardly think it matters. That's like saying to a person who's robbing you at gunpoint, "I find your shirt promoting gun-related violence extremely offensive." 525. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 7:01 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) Hell, if it looks like yet another JJ runaway, I might beat myself senseless. 526. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.02.2013 - 7:42 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Sad news today as Rene Charland, one of the greatest drivers ever in what is now the Nationwide Series passed away on Monday at 84 years of age. RIP, Rene 527. jabber1990 posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) wow, a lot of people have died today Tom Clancy, Rene Charland, 528. SpeedWorld97 posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) DSFF, it is interesting to note that every Cup race I've been to, Johnson has either blown an engine, made a pit road mistake, been uncompetitive, or become involved in an accident. And these misfortunes happened at some of his best tracks (Charlotte, Richmond). So who knows, the streak could continue at Martinsville. 529. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rays, 1; Indians, 0. Darn it. "Sad news today as Rene Charland, one of the greatest drivers ever in what is now the Nationwide Series passed away on Monday at 84 years of age." That's sad. He won four championships in a row (I think from 1968-71). My condolences to his family. 530. cjs3872 posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Who's Ford going to come roaring back with next year, MStall41? They've got, by far, the weakest driver line-up among the manufacturers. They have only four drivers capable of contending on a consistent basis, Carl Edwards, Brad Keselowski, Joey Logano, and Greg Biffle, and even Biffle's near the end of the line, though he did make the Chase this year. In other words, even if the Ford cars get better, only three or four of their drivers even have a chance of winning, except on plate and road course races. In other words, Ford's in major trouble, even if they do get their cars running better. And by the way, for those that watch Race Hub, what I'm about to mention may make more than a few posters sick. They've been doing a series called "Old School/New School", but their last two installments have been disappointing. On yesterday's (Tuesday's) program, they said that of all the old school drivers, Jimmie Johnson reminds them of King Richard, and if that wasn't bad enough, Jimmy Spencer actually had the gall to say that Jimmie Johnson was better than Richard Petty. (He also said that Dale Earnhardt, who one of the analysts chose to compare Johnson to, instead of Petty, was also better, though that's an opinion that actually does have merit.) Then on today's (Wednesday's) program, they sunk even lower, comparing Clint Bowyer to Tim Richmond. While their outgoing personalities might be similar, those two don't share anything else in common, particularly on the track. Richmond actually went out and charged to victories, while Bowyer usually rides and takes whatever finishing position he can get, and wins once or twice a year. 531. JG24FanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I hate when people say stuff like "Dale lost the title in '89 cause he blew up at Charlotte" or "Jeff lost the title in '96 cause he had a mechanical failure at Charlotte". The truth is each lost the title cause they failed to step it up like a champion should in crucial stretch races (Martinsville for Dale amd Rockingham for Jeff). Bad luck happens." Gordon stepped up for 10 wins and 21 total Top 5's. DSFF, sometimes it's hard to overlook how overbearing that bad luck really is. Example: Daytona 500--Lost 61 points to Terry Labonte after Mayfield turned him into the wall after just a handful of laps. Rockingham1--Lost 28 points to Labonte when his engine detonated before Terry's. Talladega--Lost 94 points to Terry when he was taken out in a crash with Mark Martin. Loudon--Lost 84 points to Terry when his ignition died. Brickyard--Lost 113 to Terry when his tire decided to send him into the concrete at 175 MPH. Charlotte--Lost 110 points to Terry with an engine failure, after winning three straight races and finishing in the Top 2 in 6 straight. Rockingham--lost 33 points to Labonte when his crew chief missed the set-up. He still finished 12th. When you lose 523 points in races where things didn't go your way, and you only lose the title by 37...... Here's what Gordon's finishes look like without his 7 bad races: 1st at Richmond 3rd at Atlanta 1st at Darlington 1st at Bristol 2nd at North Wilksboro 3rd at Martinsville 6th at Sonoma 4th at The World 600 1st at Dover 1st at Pocono 6th at Michigan 3rd at Daytona 7th at Pocono (Average finish of 4.0 at Pocono.) 1st at Talladega 4th at Watkins Glen (Average finish of 5.0 at road-courses.) 5th at Michigan (Average finish of 5.5 at Michigan.) 2nd at the Bristol Night race (Average finish of 1.5 at Bristol.) 1st at the Southern 500 (Darlington sweep.) 2nd at Richmond (average finish of 1.5 at Richmond.) 1st at Dover (Dover sweep.) 1st at Martinsville (average finish of 2.0 at Martinsville.) 1st at North Wilksboro ( average finish of 1.5 at North Wilksboro.) 5th at Finish 3rd at Atlanta (He made up two laps! And had an average finish of 4.0 at Atlanta.) 532. JG24FanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *5th at Finish Is meant to be be: 5th at Phoenix. 533. JG24FanForever posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon's average finish at short-tracks in 1996 was 1.625 534. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Jimmy Spencer actually had the gall to say that Jimmie Johnson was better than Richard Petty." That's why I call Spencer "Fatmouth" ("Mr Excrement" also being acceptable). Not only did his mouth hurt his driving career (which could have been pretty good, he was talented behind the wheel), but now as a broadcaster it makes him look like even more of a tool. He just can't go more than three months without saying something asinine. He surely can't really think that Jimmie is better than Petty. He's just trying to get attention just like he always is. "Then on today's (Wednesday's) program, they sunk even lower, comparing Clint Bowyer to Tim Richmond." lol, Yeah, let's compare a career points racer with one of the fiercest on track competitors that has ever been in Nascar. 535. Baker posted: 10.02.2013 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer to Richmond is an insult to Richmond. I would venture to say Tim Richmond should e Top 5 or even higher if you were ranking purely on driving talent. 536. Baker posted: 10.02.2013 - 10:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Bowyer would be lucky to be Top 75 537. MStall41 posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't have an issue with Johnson being rated over Petty. Johnson is 3rd on my all-time list to David Pearson and Dale Earnhardt. Petty was a fantastic driver, but he was the benefactor of a vastly superior car and weak competition. Johnson faced stiffer competition in my eyes which is why I give him the edge. Also, people love to attribute JJ48's success to Chad Knaus, but lets not forget that Richard Petty experienced the lion's share of his success with one crew chief as well: Dale Inman. I'd venture to say the Johnson/Petty comparison is pretty accurate now that I think about it. My Top 10 NASCAR drivers of all time would go something like this: 1. David Pearson (no-brainer in my eyes) 2. Dale Earnhardt 3. Jimmie Johnson 4. Richard Petty 5. Jeff Gordon 6. Darrell Waltrip 7. Cale Yarborough 8. Bobby Allison 9. Fireball Roberts 10. Tony Stewart 538. The Long Shot posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^ Herb Thomas? Lee Petty? 539. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Petty was a fantastic driver, but he was the benefactor of a vastly superior car and weak competition." *Johnson 540. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'm not saying that Petty didn't have a great car and a great crew chief, but you can't possibly think that Jimmie hasn't benefited exactly from the two things you are discrediting Petty for. 541. BON GORDON posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's hard to rank Johnson because his career isn't over yet. It's hard to also rank Bobby Allison. When I look at your list I say he's too low, he has so many wins, top fives, tens, laps led etc. However, he only won one title. He was in good equipment most of his career I don't care what anyone says. He could've won more championships. Fireball Roberts is too high, I'd put him in the high teens or so. Tony Stewart is close but I'd rank him like 12th-14th. Pearson is the only guy other than Petty I'd put number one on a greatest driver list. His stats are incredible. 542. David posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No Herb Thomas? Look out, Baker is about to come after you. 543. BON GORDON posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Every driver in a Top ten greatest driver list had to have pretty damn good equipment overall in their careers as well. Driver doesn't make up everything but it does help. 544. Sector posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Woah there @ Post #537, I wouldn't rank Jimmie Jimmie higher than Jeff Gordon. The road course success alone speaks for itself. Tony Stewart may be great, but I wouldn't rank him or Fireball Roberts higher than: Joe Weatherly, Herb Thomas, Lee Petty or definitely Tom Flock. 545. Sector posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Tim Flock. Yikes. 546. MStall41 posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @murb Did Johnson benefit from the two things I listed for Petty? Yes. Did he benefit from them to the same extent that Petty benefitted from them? No. Petty's EQ was WAY better than the competition relative to Johnson's EQ to Johnson's competition. I also firmly believe Jimmie faced much stiffer competition on a week-to-week basis than Petty did. 547. 83andJoe posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) >It seems no company can afford to sponsor the entire schedule anymore as Napa and now Miller are either downsizing or leaving. I read that apparently Miller only sponsoring Penske for 24 races was /Penske's/ idea, as they believe they can get a better deal by selling the remaining 11 races seperately. DSFF - If Jimmie Johnson had one-eighth of the personality John Force has, he'd have a fan following that would stomp Junior Nation into a grease puddle. Force was FAR more dominant in drag racing than Johnson ever has been, and yet he has ALWAYS been wildly popular - because instead of being an emotionless robot in public, Force has been...well.../John Force/. 548. murb posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I also firmly believe Jimmie faced much stiffer competition on a week-to-week basis than Petty did." So let me get this straight. You have David Pearson at the top of your list, Cale, Bobby, and Darrell on your list as well. These were probably four of the biggest rivals Petty had in his career. I don't get how they are all in your all time top ten yet they also qualify as Petty's "weak" competition. That makes no sense. As I've said, the EQUIPMENT that Jimmie is competing against might be greater than the equipment of the old days, but to say that Jimmie has faced stiffer competition driver wise than Richard Petty ever did has to be one of the most utterly absurd things I've ever read on here. With all due respect, though, as always. It's been a fun week debating this stuff with you, MStall. I'm just scratching my head at some of your logic. 549. BON GORDON posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) My Top Ten again..... #1. Richard Petty #2. David Pearson #3. Dale Sr. #4. Jeff Gordon #5. Cale Yarborough #6. Jimmie Johnson #7. Bobby Allsion #8. Darrell Waltrip #9. Herb Thomas #10. Lee Petty #11. Ned Jarrett #12. Tim Flock #13. Buck Baker #14. Tony Stewart #15. Rusty Wallace 550. BON GORDON posted: 10.02.2013 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Top 15 551. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.03.2013 - 12:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) It IS very interesting that Miller Lite will be scaling back their sponsorship of the #2 next year. Miller has been very loyal to Penske since 1991, so hopefully it is not true that this happened because the higher-ups at Penske thought that they'd get a better deal having another sponsor fill in some races. Loyalty is the best thing you can have from a big-time company, especially in today's economy. 552. Anonomys posted: 10.03.2013 - 4:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know everyone is probably sick of hearing about the MWR penalties, but I say that NASCAR should have penalised Bowyer AFTER the chase seeding. This would have left Bowyer with 1950 Points at the start of the chase, and would actually have 2048 points now, and would still be 13th in points. 553. DaleSrFanForever posted: 10.03.2013 - 5:16 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "DSFF - If Jimmie Johnson had one-eighth of the personality John Force has, he'd have a fan following that would stomp Junior Nation into a grease puddle. Force was FAR more dominant in drag racing than Johnson ever has been, and yet he has ALWAYS been wildly popular - because instead of being an emotionless robot in public, Force has been...well.../John Force/." Amen! 554. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.03.2013 - 5:31 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Think of all the small time drivers, John Sears, Jimmy Pardue, Billy Wade, James Hylton, Larry Thomas, Neil Castles, G.C. Spencer, J.T. Putney. Even they were just as dangerous a threat to win any given race as the other guys. The reason they didn't wasn't always worse equipment: it was unreliable equipment. I'm sorry, but until Travis Kvapil... IN THE BK RACING CAR... has a John Sears-like year with 10 top-5s and 24 top-10s, I find it hard to believe that the 2000s are stronger than the 1960s. You had to be freaking talent to be able to run cars with a) cheap suspension, b) no A/C, and c) no power steering. 555. David posted: 10.03.2013 - 7:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) BAAAAAHH!!! How could you do this to me, Cleveland? Losing 0-4 to Tampa Bay? As long as we're in a ripping mood, here's a Bleacher Report article on the top ten greatest drivers never to win a Cup championship. Believe it or not, their selections were pretty good, but they totally whiffed on the order: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/950362-top-10-nascar-drivers-never-to-win-a-sprint-cup-championship/ 556. David posted: 10.03.2013 - 7:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "lol, Yeah, let's compare a career points racer with one of the fiercest on track competitors that has ever been in Nascar." Bowyer's car number may be ten less than Richmond's, but his talent level is more like Richmond * 10^-10 . 557. Baker posted: 10.03.2013 - 9:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) David would it be possible for you to list those 10? I opened the lik on 2 different devices and got the page open but after the title it was blank all the way down to the comments. 558. Baker posted: 10.03.2013 - 9:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never mind I got it to work. No Tim Richmond is a joke. He should easily be ranked ahead of everyone on that list and the only argument would be Mark Martin. 559. Baker posted: 10.03.2013 - 9:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) They moved Harry Gant up to third because he got a late start and lost many prime years but don't take into account and erly end to the careers of Fireball Roberts, Davey Allison or Tim Richmond? 560. cjs3872 posted: 10.03.2013 - 9:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Baker, I think the one thing that goes against Tim Richmond n terms of not listing him among the best not to win a championship is the fact that his career didn't last very long. It began to flourish in 1984, and it was over in 1987. If he had even an average-length career, Dale Earnhardt would not have seven championships, because he would have nabbed at least one of the ones Earnhardt won. Richmond gave Rick Hendrick a glimpse of what Jeff Gordon would give him in the 90s and early 2000s, and what Jimmie Johnson has given him the last 12 years. 561. David posted: 10.03.2013 - 11:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's B/R's list of the top 20 greatest drivers of all time (bear in mind, though, that this list was published in 2009): 1. Richard Petty 2. Dale Earnhardt 3. Jeff Gordon 4. Bobby Allison 5. Cale Yarborough 6. Tony Stewart 7. David Pearson (you have company, cjs) 8. Darrell Waltrip 9. Bill Elliott 10. Rusty Wallace 11. Buddy Baker (ouch) 12. Lee Petty 13. Davey Allison 14. Jimmie Johnson (no, really) 15. Mark Martin 16. Junior Johnson 17. Benny Parsons 18. Ned Jarrett 19. Harry Grant (no typo, that's how he spelled it) 20. Dale Jarrett After that monstrosity, I think Chad Smith just became #1 on Baker's and DSFF's respective hit lists. even for 2009, that was pretty bad. 562. David posted: 10.03.2013 - 11:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Even* 563. Sean posted: 10.03.2013 - 1:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I know everyone is probably sick of hearing about the MWR penalties, but I say that NASCAR should have penalised Bowyer AFTER the chase seeding. This would have left Bowyer with 1950 Points at the start of the chase, and would actually have 2048 points now, and would still be 13th in points." I like that better than the de facto non-penalty Bowyer actually received. "I'm sorry, but until Travis Kvapil... IN THE BK RACING CAR... has a John Sears-like year with 10 top-5s and 24 top-10s, I find it hard to believe that the 2000s are stronger than the 1960s." That isn't possible because in the '60s there were only like 3-5 factory cars at most entered in the short track races, so the independents who managed to finish the races would earn top tens over and over and over again (several laps down) without ever really being factors in the actual races. Kvapil meanwhile manages to be much closer to being on the pace of the leaders than Sears was, but there are many, MANY more cars on the leader's pace now. Nobody now could have a season like that in that car, and several people then could have just because there are like 25 factory cars now when there were only 5 then. And I rather loathe the "real men don't use power steering" arguments to rate past eras higher. You can only truly compare drivers for what they did IN THEIR TIME, but to rate certain eras higher because of technological change seems wrong. Wouldn't the best drivers now be able to best adapt without power steering? Wouldn't the best drivers from the past be best able to adapt to power steering without having used it before? Etc... And Billy Wade was a factory driver, not an independent, when he won four straight races. I'll admit he's overlooked, but throwing him in there seems weird. "As long as we're in a ripping mood, here's a Bleacher Report article on the top ten greatest drivers never to win a Cup championship. Believe it or not, their selections were pretty good, but they totally whiffed on the order:" Uh, I want Tim Richmond and Ernie Irvan on the list, but it's also not completely obvious who to kick off to make room for them. I guess Rudd and Bonnett, but it's hard. All those 12, Marvin Panch, Geoff Bodine, Buddy Baker, Jim Paschal, Kyle Busch, and Denny Hamlin probably all have a claim, and I wouldn't really be annoyed to see any of those drivers on that list. Mark Martin at #1 DOES disgust me. He has become one of the most overrated drivers in Cup history, whom everybody calls 'the best driver to never win a title' while overlooking many, many, MANY drivers from both the modern and pre-modern eras. You can't put somebody who had a 20-year stable career in good to great equipment who never won a title over guys like Fireball Roberts, Junior Johnson, and Fred Lorenzen who barely (if ever) competed for titles yet were among the most dominant drivers of their time, something Martin NEVER really was. If he had actually won the title in 1990, it would have been a Darrell Waltrip in '85/Terry Labonte in '96 style travesty. Honestly, I would put Richmond and Irvan higher than Martin because they were more dominant at their peak than Martin ever was. Richmond seemed like a much bigger threat to Earnhardt in '86 and Irvan seemed like a much bigger threat to Earnhardt in '94 than Martin did to Earnhardt at any point in the first half of the '90s, to Gordon any point in the second half of the '90s, and to Stewart and Johnson later. In all five years he finished second, the champion would have been a consensus pick to finish higher in points before the season started. And that's the same kind of reason I'd probably kick Rudd off, but at least Rudd had some lousy equipment at times. The early Childress/Bud Moore/Kenny Bernstein/owner-driver operations were probably all weaker than Roush. Then there's my frequent argument that I think Ernie Irvan was a better driver than Davey Allison (and the best driver Yates ever had, at least uninjured), but nobody agrees with me on that so I'll just cool it. Still, it's not a disgusting list except for the placement of Martin. Especially compared to that top 20 list with Buddy Baker, Davey Allison, Mark Martin, Benny Parsons, and Dale Jarrett on it... And what's your criticism of Jimmie Johnson in 14th? Sounds about right for 2009. 564. Sean posted: 10.03.2013 - 1:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, maybe Billy Wade wasn't a factory driver per se (I know that Bud Moore couldn't afford to enter all the races that year, just like in '63 when Weatherly had his championship driving for eight different teams), but he still had much stronger and more reliable equipment for that time than the John Sears, Neil Castles, and Wendell Scotts did. 565. Sean posted: 10.03.2013 - 1:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I find Brandon's comments at the bottom of the article more ridiculous than anything in the article/slide show itself. He had Baker, Burton, and Bodine as honorable mentions? Fine (although not having Tim Richmond as one of his FIVE honorable mentions is ridiculous...his career was similar to Irvan's and definitely better than Panch's and several drivers who made the list). But BURTON? And he seems to compliment JB Mclean for the suggestion of Burton but say 'At least you didn't list Junior'. Burton and Junior's careers OBJECTIVELY are actually VERY SIMILAR. Four great seasons with a powerhouse team (Burton, 1997-2000; Junior, 2001-2004), seeming to lose their way the last few years with said team (Burton, 2001-2004; Junior 2005-2007), making a high-profile unexpected switch to another strong team and getting regularly outperformed by teammates but good for a random win or chase now and then (Burton at Childress, Junior at Hendrick). I'd PROBABLY take Burton over Junior, but I'd have to think about it, especially since I do think Junior's prime was deeper than Burton's, because Junior had many more contemporaries fighting for wins at DEI (Stewart, Kenseth, Harvick, Kurt Busch, Newman, Johnson, Biffle, Kahne, Kyle Busch, not to mention all the people Burton also competed against) than Burton did (pretty much just Gordon, Jarrett, Martin, and Bobby Labonte). 566. Eric posted: 10.03.2013 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, Rush was never known for horsepower despite Mark having 41 poles at Roush. When it comes to the Ford Camp back in the 1990's, you think of Yates in terms of horsepower,not Roush. One of the reasons some people try to discredit Dale Jarrett as a driver to a point was because of how great the Yates engines were back in the 1990's. Lets also remember that Ernie Irvan had great engines in 1994 at Yates. Tim Richmond had great engines also in terms of horsepower. Hendrick had the legendary Randy Dorton as Engine Builder at Hendrick even when Hendrick was with Roush. 567. Eric posted: 10.03.2013 - 2:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I do blame the conservative nature of Mark not winning a cup title although Mark gets a pass in 1990 and 1998 for not winning a cup championship. Mark had a legendary Crew chief in Jimmy Fennig from 1997 to 2001. Not able to win a championship with Jimmy Fennig is odd unlike Kenseth not getting on with Jimmy Fennig because Roush Equipment as a whole wasn't as good as the 1990's was. Mark's 1998 season was good enough to win a cup championship in most seasons except for the fact 1998 was Jeff Gordon's best season ever as a cup driver. Mark would have 1990 if it wasn't the Richmond penalty. 568. Baker posted: 10.03.2013 - 2:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) I would never rank Junior over Burton bc Burton was a threat to win anywhere and has been a solid road racer. Dale Junior is not a threat at most places and never has been. He is also awful on the road and 7 of those 19 wins came on plate tracks with a supremely superior car to the rest of the field. He also had a great plate racer in his own right pushing him to many of those wins. 569. BON GORDON posted: 10.03.2013 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I have Jeff Burton ahead of Dale Junior on my list but only by a few spots. Junior was at his peak from 2001-2006 or so with a very disappointing 2005. Junior was only a true title contender in 2003 and 2004. Burton was a Top driver from 1997-2000. Burton has more Top ten point seasons, more Top fives, top tens, and overall was better on road courses than Dale Jr. The only thing Junior has the Burton doesn't is a Daytona 500 win and DEI was superior on restrictor plates from 2001-2004. 570. AveryNH posted: 10.03.2013 - 6:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) How is a guy who finished 2nd on five different occasions spanning about two decades disgusting? I concur Martin wasn't ever dominant per say. But he had remarkable consistency throughout the 90s with 96 being the only real exception. 2000-01 was dismal. He rebounded in 02 and promptly fell off the face of the earth in 03. 04-06 he was a threat but never overtly dominant. 07-08 was a list cause running part time but in 09 he came roaring back to 2nd. I'm convinced id he missed the last lap crash at dega he wins the title. 2010 through now has been rough and isn't really worth noting. And I sincerely hope he finally retires after this season. Perhaps he should be ranked second, (fitting right?) To fireball or Lorenzen. Because those two thoroughly dominated their eras. Now What I find disgusting is how Irvan is left off the list. Granted he only had one dominant season before his injury that probably would remove one 2nd place from Martin's list (1994). He was a threat in under powered Morgan-McClure equipment, and once he came back still proved he could still be competitive. But as Sean said, who do you kick out? You can't boot Gant out, he was a constant threat to win the title through the early to mid 80s, with two third place finishes and a second, and briefly contented in 91 and 92. Perhaps it's Bonnett. He was a dominant threat in the wood brothers 21 from 79 to 82 and abruptly took a turn for the better competing heavily in 83 and 85 while going winless in 84. But once he rejoined Rahmoc he quickly quit being a threat and then was ravaged by injuries. Finally I don't see how Geoff Bodine would make the list. Dominant, yes. From 86 to 90 he was a threat to contend with but he lacked the consistency to make a run at a title. His best points finish, 3rd in 1990, he took a backseat to Martin and Earnhardt. And from then on 91 to 94 he was competitive but I'd say the only season he was truly a week in week out threat to win again was in 94 where he either won or Dnf'ed if he had any reliability that year he may have finished 2nd instead of Mark or maybe Irvan if he remained healthy. So the drivers on the list are about right, but the consensus here is for some reshuffling. 571. cjs3872 posted: 10.03.2013 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Unless you call winning two of the first three races of the 1988 season and finishing fourth in the other, while throwing in a win in an exhibition race in Australia not being a serious threat, I'm not sure what you're talking about when it comes to Neil Bonnett, AveryNH. And that's exactly what Bonnett did in the first month of the 1988 season, while STILL recovering from the shattered leg he suffered at Charlotte the previous fall. His leg did not fully heal until the end of the 1988 season. And just look at Bonnett's results with RahMoc and compare them to everyone else that ever drove that #75 car (he was the only driver to win in that car), and you'll see just how good he was. Bonnett won nearly all the big races, except the Daytona 500 and Winston 500 (including the only win the Wood Brothers have ever enjoyed in the second Talladega race, which came in 1980), and wretched luck was the only thing that kept him from winning the Daytona 500, as he had the best car in the 1983 and '86 races, and had the only car capable of outrunning Bobby Allison in the 1981 race before a vibration literally broke the rear spoiler in two, and his was the only car capable of even keeping up with Bill Elliott in the 1985 race, but his engine blew with five laps to go. Bonnett may have been the unluckiest driver among the elites. If he only had half the bad luck that he had, his win total might be in the 30s, and he might have won a championship when he drove for Junior Johnson. 572. Destroyahirismix666 posted: 10.03.2013 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's official folks. I'll be at the Kansas speedway for the ARCA race. Pray the rain stays away. I want to see the thing raced to it's scheduled distance. 573. RCRandPenskeGuy posted: 10.03.2013 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would say that Burton and Dale Jr's careers are pretty similar as well. I'm not sure who I would rank ahead. RCR has seen some really off years recently, while Dale Jr currently drives for the best team in the garage. But they both have had at least four years of stardom which have been really similar, so it's hard for me to really say who I would rank ahead. They have also both had many races in their career where they led a lot of laps but couldn't close the deal when it comes to winning. 574. NicoRosbergFan posted: 10.04.2013 - 8:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (4) I hate to say this, Sean, but Hendrick is technically the Chevy factory team, and Roush is the Ford factory, so there are about the same number of cars running on factory now. Your argument about independents thriving on short tracks doesn't hold water lest I talk about the many times drivers like Marty Robbins, G.C. Spencer, Roy Mayne, Wendell Scott, and John Sears ran top-10 or even top-5 at tracks like Daytona, Charlotte, and Darlington. Hell, G.C. was SECOND in the 1966 World 600! 575. Spen posted: 10.04.2013 - 9:30 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Childress, SHR, and to a lesser extent, EGR are also factory Chevy teams. Penske and RPM are factory Ford teams, and Gibbs and MWR are factory Toyota teams. The aforementioned '66 World 600 had ten factory cars, eight of whom DNF'd. Nice job on beating Don White, but other than that, not a huge accomplishment for G.C. On the Burton-Junior debate: I have Jeff 49th on my list, and June bug 52nd. 576. Dave #38 Fan-Go Gilliland! posted: 10.04.2013 - 12:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To put James Hylton's final start and retirement in perspective, he had his Nascar debut in 1964 at Old Dominion Speedway in Virgina, of the 20 drivers in the field that day, 9 of them have since passed away. In addition, at the time he made his debut, Richard Petty had yet to win a championship, and had won just 33 races. Of the 62 races that season, 23 were on dirt. Morgan Shepherd would not make his Nascar debut for another six years. Dale Earnhardt would not make his Nascar debut for another 11 years. Jeff Gordon would not be BORN for another seven years, Jimmie Johnson would not be born for another 11 years. That's just amazing to think about. He has literally seen virtually the entire history of the sport happen right before him. 577. The Long Shot posted: 10.04.2013 - 12:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) After completing his first lap of practice today, Frank Kimmel has officially clinched his 10th career ARCA Series championship, his first since 2007. 578. Sean posted: 10.04.2013 - 1:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Eric, I agree that Yates had a horsepower advantage over Roush in the '90s, but Roush was still better than the teams several other non-champions won with: Harry Gant (Hal Needham/Leo Jackson), Ricky Rudd (Kenny Bernstein/owner-driver), Ernie Irvan (Morgan-McClure), Geoff Bodine (late-era Bud Moore/owner-driver), Neil Bonnett (RahMoc), etc..., etc... Roush may not have been the best team but they were one of the better teams especially in the late '90s/early 2000s. And I do think Roush was getting close to catching Yates in terms of horsepower by the late '90s, especially 1998 (as I said before, Chad Little finished 2nd at Texas!) My main argument for Irvan is that he was winning on a wide variety of tracks for Morgan-McClure anyway, and I'm not at all sure Martin would have done AS MUCH for that team. Nor do I think Martin necessarily would have won as much as Gant in the #33. It is a debate, but in terms of longevity, I admit Martin has it so I'd probably rate him higher than the other modern-era drivers, but my annoyance (I shouldn't have said "disgust") is when people make cliche choices like that without actually thinking (putting somebody like Mark Martin automatically as the best non-champion is like that...there is NO WAY he should be ranked over Roberts, Johnson, or Lorenzen, who were much more dominant but just didn't compete full schedules...I'll put him 4th though). "Mark's 1998 season was good enough to win a cup championship in most seasons except for the fact 1998 was Jeff Gordon's best season ever as a cup driver." I actually think Roush had stronger cars than Hendrick in '98. Martin led more laps than Gordon, Martin tended to be feasting on the cookie-cutters while Gordon was slightly more well-rounded, Little had a 2nd place finish, Benson missed the Daytona 500 but made it to the top ten in points by race 7, the Fords dominated the crap out of the first half of the season to the point where a driver as bad as Jeremy Mayfield led the points, and only in the second half did Gordon (not really joined by the rest of Chevrolet) take charge. Earnhardt had his worst season ever, Labonte did nothing except a controversial win at Richmond, Bobby Hamilton won Chevy's only other race, and the #50 had quite possibly the worst season for any individual car in Hendrick history. Martin had by far and away the strongest equipment of his career (and what I think was the strongest car in the field) and didn't win the title. At that point, Martin was my favorite driver and Gordon was my least favorite driver, but looking back on it and seeing how dominant the Ford Taurus was when it debuted, I think this is correct. I hope I am not biased because of my personal disillusionment towards Martin with regard to everything he has done since losing Roush. It is what leads me to use emotionally charged words like 'disgust' which are probably wrong. Because people talk about him and Davey Allison as the 'best modern-era non-champions' by default and ignore plenty of drivers who were pretty much just as good, I tend to trash Martin and Davey more than I should (Davey especially). "Mark would have 1990 if it wasn't the Richmond penalty." And it would have been a complete farce like 1985 and 1996 were. Flip the results of that championship and Earnhardt still deserved it. He was pretty much just as consistent as Martin (more top 5s/same number of top 10s) but a LOT more dominant. Martin never had a season good enough to win a championship (and '98 was hardly his best season given the extreme Ford dominance). He had the best average finish three times (1990, 1997, 2002) but the champions were all more dominant, and Earnhardt and Gordon were much more dominant. "I would never rank Junior over Burton bc Burton was a threat to win anywhere and has been a solid road racer." Solid road racer? SOLID ROAD RACER?!?! Jamie McMurray is a better road racer than Burton. Martin Truex, Jr. is a better road racer than Burton. Joey Logano is a better road racer than Burton. And these are like 2nd/3rd tier guys on the overall schedule with no special road racing experience. The 2000-2001 Watkins Glen races were the only good road races he ever had really. Junior's done about that much. I'll agree Burton won on a greater variety of tracks - and I, like Spen, would list him slightly - SLIGHTLY - higher, but in Junior's prime from 2001-2004 he was pretty much just as capable of dominating everywhere as Burton was from 1997-2000...he just didn't quite have as much diversity in where he actually got his wins. He's a guy who at his best was overshadowed by Bobby Labonte (who was ALSO a better road racer than Burton...I'm serious.) Burton WAS a better road racer than Matt Kenseth, I'll give you that. "Now What I find disgusting is how Irvan is left off the list. Granted he only had one dominant season before his injury that probably would remove one 2nd place from Martin's list (1994). He was a threat in under powered Morgan-McClure equipment, and once he came back still proved he could still be competitive. But as Sean said, who do you kick out?" I already said: remove Bonnett and Rudd for Richmond and Irvan, but it is VERY, VERY hard since all those guys (Gant and Bodine and obviously Davey too) had huge what ifs in their careers who kept them all from the potential of winning 30 or 40 races in their careers. I agree Bodine probably doesn't cut it but I just think he's historically ignored far too often because most fans don't like him (many of us would probably leave drivers like Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin, Carl Edwards, and Kevin Harvick for the same reasons...Kyle will probably make my top ten best non-champions list once he FINALLY has a season where he is still alive at Homestead, which I think will be this year). "I hate to say this, Sean, but Hendrick is technically the Chevy factory team, and Roush is the Ford factory, so there are about the same number of cars running on factory now. Your argument about independents thriving on short tracks doesn't hold water lest I talk about the many times drivers like Marty Robbins, G.C. Spencer, Roy Mayne, Wendell Scott, and John Sears ran top-10 or even top-5 at tracks like Daytona, Charlotte, and Darlington. Hell, G.C. was SECOND in the 1966 World 600!" Totally agree with Spen on this. It's no secret that Hendrick, Roush, and Gibbs are the PREFERRED Chevrolet, Ford, and Toyota teams respectively and get the MOST support, but pretty much all the fully-funded cars get factory support (the only teams I wouldn't call factory are the BKs, Front Rows, Germains, etc... - even Furniture Row probably doesn't count this year because of their RCR alliance). All those drivers did a good job for the equipment they had to beat all the other independent drivers, but again, Spen is right. Any instances where the independents made the top five in that era on superspeedways (usually a bunch of laps down, just as equivalent teams would be in this era, just behind many more factory cars which are much more reliable now) happened because the factory equipment (designed to go for wins) blew up while the independent equipment (designed to just finish the race and collect points) did not. I respect those drivers (especially the ones who actually won - Hylton, Langley, Scott) but it's hard for me to rate them as highly as you do. There's a reason most of the factory drivers who won races got those rides. Compare to more recent IndyCar where Helio Castroneves and Dario Franchitti proved they were fast in total unreliable crapmobiles in their rookie seasons before progressing to the top rides. Now I can't STAND Helio and Dario, but I'll still admit they paid their dues. While Hylton and Langley were surely better than some factory drivers, it's much harder to argue somebody like John Sears was... The top teams hire the top drivers for a reason. It's disgusting (here I go again) when the top teams hire bad drivers (hi, Casey Mears!) and one of the worst things about this era is bad marketable drivers in top equipment, but even now I'd hesitate to say the non-factory drivers are better. The drivers who are better are probably not marketable enough to make it to Cup in the first place...slugging it out in bad K&N East rides or something while the factory teams' pretty boy development drivers blow them out of the water in grossly superior equipment. 579. Sean posted: 10.04.2013 - 2:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That's just amazing to think about. He has literally seen virtually the entire history of the sport happen right before him." Hylton has nothing on Hershel McGriff, who raced against Red Byron and Jeff Gordon. Okay, if I were to make a top ten non-champions list for Cup with 5 honorable mentions, it would be something like: 1. Fireball Roberts 2. Junior Johnson 3. Fred Lorenzen 4. Mark Martin 5. Curtis Turner 6. Tim Richmond 7. Harry Gant 8. Ernie Irvan 9. Davey Allison 10. Fonty Flock Honorable mentions: Buddy Baker, Geoff Bodine, Neil Bonnett, Kyle Busch, Ricky Rudd While my top three are pretty much locked, I could understand putting 4-10 in any order, and I could understand any of my honorable mentions being listed in anyone's top ten. I have to decide how much more success Kyle Busch needs before I slide him in. I think he needs to be alive at Homestead, and if he is alive at Homestead this year and doesn't win the title, I'll put him in my top ten. I suspect to get hate for putting Fonty Flock that low, and it might be my ignorance, but like I said, my rankings from 4th-10th are pretty marginal so if somebody wanted to put him 5th, I couldn't argue. If somebody tried to put him over Roberts, Johnson, or Lorenzen I could not agree. I decided to also do lists for Formula One and IndyCar for the hell of it. Top ten drivers to never win a Formula One championship: 1. Stirling Moss 2. Dan Gurney 3. Jacky Ickx 4. Ronnie Peterson 5. Gilles Villeneuve 6. Carlos Reutimann 7. Rene Arnoux 8. David Coulthard 9. Felipe Massa 10. Juan Pablo Montoya Honorable mentions: Rubens Barrichello, Gerhard Berger, Francois Cevert, Clay Regazzoni, and Mark Webber Moss is the obvious #1. Gurney's stats are pretty weak but he was one of the very few successful owner-drivers in F1 and Jim Clark called him "the only driver he ever feared". Ickx I might be overrating because of his success in other forms of motorsport, but back in that era of F1 it mattered as all those drivers raced pretty much everything (unlike today). I stayed away from drivers who drove for the dominant team and accrued a lot of wins thanks to piggy-backing off of legendary teammates' success (Barrichello, Berger, Webber). Massa I did list since he came so close to winning a title and beat Kimi Raikkonen straight up. Montoya couldn't beat Raikkonen when they were teammates, so he is below Massa (some would criticize Montoya at all but I think he did an outstanding job standing up to the Schumacher juggernaut in weaker equipment). Arnoux came closer to beating Alain Prost than many of his other teammates did, including some champions. Top ten drivers to never win an IndyCar championship: 1. Dan Gurney 2. Parnelli Jones 3. Bill Vukovich 4. Helio Castroneves 5. Will Power 6. Frank Lockhart 7. Lloyd Ruby 8. Louis Chevrolet 9. Greg Moore 10. Justin Wilson Honorable mentions: Gary Bettenhausen, Bruno Junqueira, Mike Mosley, Danny Ongais, and Eddie Sachs I worry some people will say this is too modern and chide me for not having enough earlier Indy 500 winners like Bill Holland on it (in an era when the schedule only had three races on it), but I think this is a pretty good balance between classic and modern, and I do think IndyCar racing was at its greatest depth from the '60s-early 2000s (CART only after the split), although it is the deepest now since CART 2001. Gurney and Jones didn't drive full schedules often but were considered among the very best of their time (as opposed to people like Castroneves and Power who had stability and many more wins for dominant teams running the full schedule and just couldn't get the titles). Ruby is rated as one of the best of that time by the insiders so I'll stick him in although based on his stats it's hard to see it. Greg Moore was a better oval racer than Castroneves so he would have been an Indy 500 winner/IRL champion for Penske, and what he did for Forsythe in CART was very good since they seemed like a mid-pack team until Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti left. Justin Wilson has never had a top-tier ride but has been one of the top five drivers - Champ Car or IRL - more often than not every season since 2005. Him DOMINATING at Watkins Glen with Dale Coyne Racing, which hadn't won a race for 20 years and had been the butt of jokes is one of the best performances ever, and he just won an oval race at Texas for them last year and is 6th in the points ahead of Franchitti and Power. DEFINITELY one of the best drivers today, and a huge what if. The only season he was ever given anything good to drive (Newman-Haas 2008) he ended up having a learning curve because of the Champ Car/IRL merger and it ended up being a mid-pack team. If Castroneves wins the title this year, Sachs becomes my #10. 580. Sean posted: 10.04.2013 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Ganassi officially signed Tony Kanaan to his IndyCar team for 2013 and announced a switch to Chevrolet matching his Cup operation. I don't know how Honda's going to compete there now with Andretti, Ganassi, and Penske all signed to Chevy (unless Andretti is lured back by Honda). I'm trying to figure out which team Honda is going to put its greatest emphasis on for next year now that the 800 pound gorilla that is Ganassi is no longer there. Schmidt Hamilton? Simon Pagenaud is about to score his second straight top five points finish, has steady full-season sponsorship from Hewlett-Packard which most others don't, and this in a way seems like the ultimate merged team considering Sam Schmidt and Davey Hamilton were IRL poster boys and Pagenaud is one of Honda's poster boys considering his many wins for them in the American Le Mans Series with Gil de Ferran before switching to IndyCar. Tristan Vautier is extremely disappointing though. Herta/Barracuda? Bryan Herta won the Indy 500 with Dan Wheldon a mere two years ago but the team has been laughably bad this year rotating a lot of marginal drivers, but an Indy 500 win can help carry a team since it's the only race that has a sizable audience. I like J.R. Hildebrand, but I'm still gonna groan if he gets it. Rahal? While Bobby Rahal's team is usually good, but this year has been very, very bad mainly because he has had trouble finding sponsorship lately and wants his below-average son Graham to be the center of the team. Combining an overrated name driver with a ride-buyer is not the route to success. Foyt? Takuma Sato looked really good at the start of this season and he's stopped crashing for the most part, but the team is really unreliable (probably because Sato's overdriving his equipment?) Doesn't have the makings of a factory team even though Foyt is the most famous owner. Coyne? Justin Wilson is a championship-caliber talent driving a 15th place car with a random assortment of mostly ride-buying teammates. I'd love for this team to get factory support, since you know what I think of Wilson (see above) and he's one of the most likable drivers too. But people have been ignoring Coyne for years and I don't see that changing even if this is their best year ever. Sarah Fisher? Josef Newgarden is the coolest driver in IndyCar (or 2nd to Hinchcliffe) and seems to have a LOT of speed for such a young driver, and in lousy equipment. In his rookie season he was too impatient but has now settled down and is getting podium finishes on street courses with an unsponsored car. He has a LOT of potential but it won't be realized at this team, and I expect him to be on one of the big three teams and soon (after Castroneves, Franchitti, Kanaan, or Montoya retire probably.) I guess the Sam Schmidt operation is going to be THE Honda factory team (unless they get Andretti back) and I could see Pagenaud as next year's IndyCar champion as a result, especially because too many of the Penske/Ganassi/Andretti drivers are getting older (Castroneves/Montoya/Franchitti/Kanaan) and can't have many good years left, still can't compete on the entire schedule (Power), are too inconsistent (Hinchcliffe), or are laughably overrated (Marco). It's just weird how Pagenaud, Wilson, and Sebastien Bourdais might be better than any other driver on the Big Three teams next year except for Dixon and Hunter-Reay. 581. Maverick11 posted: 04.10.2016 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Along with 2007 Pocono, Jr.'s best finish after starting on the pole. 582. Maverick11 posted: 04.21.2016 - 1:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) My mistake, technically his best, but he started and finished first in the 2015 Coke Zero 400, but that wasn't officially a pole due to qualifying being rained out. 583. BluesTravelerFan posted: 08.31.2017 - 3:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This is probably the only time I history you'll see Sean be kind of a jerk (after the race) normally he's really classy. I was SO mad after this race that Jr. didn't win. Thankfully he more than made up for it the next two years. 584. chevyfan98 posted: 08.31.2017 - 5:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior did really kind of choke this one though. He had four tires at the end of the race compared to Johnson's two and couldn't pass him. Its funny now that you bring this up though that I'm now at the point where I've been on here long enough to where I can see certain posters gradually changing how they feel about certain drivers. Like when I first started posting here I remember Sean was always really hard on Junior and now he defends him more often than not. BTW, any particular reason you're posting as your old username again? Is it for throwback week? 585. BluesTravelerFan posted: 08.31.2017 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey chevyfan I didn't see this until now sorry. Anytime I post here I'm just going to use my old name kind of as a symbolism between the my time in the "old" era of RR and my time in the "new" era on the boards. Yes you're right he did choke kinda in this race but it didn't stop me from being mad afterwards of course. I was equally mad after Homestead a few weeks later. I'd gotten so tired of people bagging on him then I wanted him to win not just for my happiness but shove it in their faces too. I'd say the next February (and the time after) he did lol. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: